Starting a thread to find the ever elusive: what work do you consider the very essence of a composer?
It can be, but does not have to be a work one keeps returning to. It can be, but does not have to be your favourite work of his. It can be instrumental, chamber, orchestral, vocal etc.
For me it would be a work I consider to be totally and uniquely attributable to this particular composer. A work that contains many traits that characterize his aesthetic and artistic personality, his compositional technique, his particular sound world, IOW that is immediately recognizable as that of Schumann.
My nominee is symphony no. 4 in d minor. My favourite Schumann piece and the one I listen to most often is the piano concerto. But I find that the 4th symphony is the one that is the most characteristic of this composer.
I find in it all the attributes that are present into his music: it is structurally daring but awkward, it contains magnificent themes that are sharply contrasted. Its instrumentation is entirely appropriate to the rythmic and melodic material. Its moods are very varied and encompass anguish, swagger, proud utterances and introspective ones, driving rythms and passage of intense majesty and romantic yearning. It's the most kaleidoscopically schumannian outside his piano works (such as Kreisleriana).
What is your quintesential Schumann work?
Do you consider the original (1841) or revised (1841) version to be closer to the essence of Schumann? Brahms reputedly strongly preferred the original version and arranged for its publication.
I haven't heard the original version (I think Gardiner recorded it) nor the Mahler revision (I have the Chailly set safely sleeping on my shelves), only the widely used revised version that everybody and their uncle has conducted since the work was created.
I'll agree with you in key, André, but a different work. For essential Schumann, if one eschew the Lieder, then I think one still needs to turn to the chamber music. So my vote will be cast for the d minor Violin Sonata, Op.121.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2012, 11:58:39 AM
I'll agree with you in key, André, but a different work. For essential Schumann, if one eschew the Lieder, then I think one still needs to turn to the chamber music. So my vote will be cast for the d minor Violin Sonata, Op.121.
I admit, though, that it was only with reluctance that I set aside the Cello Concerto and the Piano Quintet in Eb.
Quote from: André on October 04, 2012, 11:24:08 AM
I haven't heard the original version (I think Gardiner recorded it) nor the Mahler revision (I have the Chailly set safely sleeping on my shelves), only the widely used revised version that everybody and their uncle has conducted since the work was created.
Gardiner did it. I have Harnoncourt's recording of the original 4th, which I like a lot (he did both versions at different times).
I guess my idea for the most characteristic piece would be most common answer, the Fantasia in C. Maybe the symphonic etudes.
Quote from: André on October 04, 2012, 10:24:47 AM
Starting a thread to find the ever elusive: what work do you consider the very essence of a composer?
It can be, but does not have to be a work one keeps returning to. It can be, but does not have to be your favourite work of his. It can be instrumental, chamber, orchestral, vocal etc.
For me it would be a work I consider to be totally and uniquely attributable to this particular composer. A work that contains many traits that characterize his aesthetic and artistic personality, his compositional technique, his particular sound world, IOW that is immediately recognizable as that of Schumann.
My nominee is symphony no. 4 in d minor. My favourite Schumann piece and the one I listen to most often is the piano concerto. But I find that the 4th symphony is the one that is the most characteristic of this composer.
I find in it all the attributes that are present into his music: it is structurally daring but awkward, it contains magnificent themes that are sharply contrasted. Its instrumentation is entirely appropriate to the rythmic and melodic material. Its moods are very varied and encompass anguish, swagger, proud utterances and introspective ones, driving rythms and passage of intense majesty and romantic yearning. It's the most kaleidoscopically schumannian outside his piano works (such as Kreisleriana).
What is your quintesential Schumann work?
Excellent choice. There are probably three that I would choose from: Sympony No.4, Kinderszenen, and Dichterliebe. I think all of these capture his essence beautifully. But if forced to pick one, I think I'd actually go with Kinderszenen. I can listen to this endlessly. Just listening to 'Child Falling Asleep' and that has this beautiful haunting sound at the start (which I envision as one not wanting to sleep or perhaps fear of it), which then opens up into this 'safe' melody. The piece has everything you described for the 4th symphony. By the way, here is my favorite version (you will need real player I think): http://www.rsi.ch/argerich/player.cfm?lng=1&idc=19937 (http://www.rsi.ch/argerich/player.cfm?lng=1&idc=19937). Here was the recital from that day: http://www.rsi.ch/argerich/welcome.cfm?lng=1&ids=489&idc=18528 (http://www.rsi.ch/argerich/welcome.cfm?lng=1&ids=489&idc=18528)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2012, 11:58:39 AM
I'll agree with you in key, André, but a different work. For essential Schumann, if one eschew the Lieder, then I think one still needs to turn to the chamber music. So my vote will be cast for the d minor Violin Sonata, Op.121.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2012, 12:06:12 PM
I admit, though, that it was only with reluctance that I set aside the Cello Concerto and the Piano Quintet in Eb.
Earlier, when I first saw this topic, I was thinking of
exactly those three - in fact, I'm listening to
du Pré & Barenboim in the
Cello Concerto now. 8)
For me, Schumann's essence has to be in works that strongly highlight his two alter-egos. My pick is Kreisleriana.
I agree with Sammy, it has to be something bipolar. Symphony #4 is not true Schumann. It has to be from his piano music or closely related.
The ultimate expression of Schumann's split personality is surely Carnaval. However, any representative work should also illustrate his obsession with making every opus an integrated thematic entity. Almost any of his piano sets would do this, but so would the Symphony. I'll settle for Carnaval.
Quote from: Ten thumbs on October 04, 2012, 01:45:48 PM
The ultimate expression of Schumann's split personality is surely Carnaval. However, any representative work should also illustrate his obsession with making every opus an integrated thematic entity. Almost any of his piano sets would do this, but so would the Symphony. I'll settle for Carnaval.
Well said (Schumann's obsession for integrated thematic entity). Of course there are a number of works to choose from, in different genres, which is great, as it shows he was a composer of many facets. The Piano Quintet, Carnaval, Symphonic Etudes and Fantasia are good cases in point, whereas the ever adorable concerto is not, for obvious reasons (it's really two works independently composed at different times conflated in a concertante structure).
Karl, I love the G major violin sonata too, my very first disc of anything schumannian (can't recall the violinist, but the pianist was Malcolm Frager and the label BASF). My first exposure to the composer's quirky way with themes, development, and shifting moods.
I certainly agree with the 4th symphony! Absolutely love that work, it recieves a weekly listen from me! (every Saturday on the train journey back from the academy :) ) So, it's probably one of the works I listen to most often!
For me:
Fantasy in C, Carnival
His piano trios
Symphony No. 2
Piano/Cello/Violin Concertos
Ah yes, definitely the 2nd symphony, C Major Fantasie and Piano Concerto too! Thank you for reminding me, Ray! :)
Guys, walk the plank ! Be men and make ONE choice! ;)
Davidsbundlertanze
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 04, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
Davidsbundlertanze
That's a great pick for Schumann's essence. However, it's clear from some other entries that the alter-ego theme is not thought to be the real essence.
Quote from: Sammy on October 04, 2012, 03:11:21 PM
That's a great pick for Schumann's essence. However, it's clear from some other entries that the alter-ego theme is not thought to be the real essence.
Well the alter-ego was only part of why I chose the work. I mainly chose it for it being a keyboard work and because of its romantic lyricism, both which I think suit Schumann's character.
Quote from: André on October 04, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
Guys, walk the plank ! Be men and make ONE choice! ;)
Bust heads,
André! ; )
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 04, 2012, 03:14:24 PM
Well the alter-ego was only part of why I chose the work. I mainly chose it for it being a keyboard work and because of its romantic lyricism, both which I think suit Schumann's character.
I don't understand what you're getting at here. Schumann wrote a ton of keyboard works and just about all his compositions (keyboard or otherwise) are strong on romantic lyricism.
Quote from: Sammy on October 04, 2012, 03:27:37 PM
I don't understand what you're getting at here. Schumann wrote a ton of keyboard works and just about all his compositions (keyboard or otherwise) are strong on romantic lyricism.
Yes, but not all of them were as explicit with the alter ego, which I think is a component I consider necessary. I just meant that statement to say that I didn't choose it solely because of it.
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 04, 2012, 03:29:21 PM
Yes, but not all of them were as explicit with the alter ego, which I think is a component I consider necessary. I just meant that statement to say that I didn't choose it solely because of it.
Okay, and I agree about the explicit nature of Davidsbundlertanze and Kreisleriana.
Quote from: Sammy on October 04, 2012, 03:32:48 PM
Okay, and I agree about the explicit nature of Davidsbundlertanze and Kreisleriana.
That was the other composition that was in the race, for me.
Quote from: André on October 04, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
Guys, walk the plank ! Be men and make ONE choice! ;)
Carnaval
Kreisleriana.
I like Carnaval, but there is not enough of the "dark side", the Hoffmannian gothic romantic in this piece which may be the most obviously brilliant of his longer pieces. So I'd go with Kreisleriana or Davidsbündlertänze. Of the song cycles I'd nominate the Eichendorff op.39 before Dichterliebe. Dichterliebe is great, of course, but I am not always sure if Schumann is not too serious for the ironic Heine. The Eichendorff-Lieder are all romantic longing (with some dark undertones, like in "Zwielicht")
Interesting that this thread surfaces today. The day before yesterday I was in the car listening to the quadruple horn concerto (Konzertstuck) and I was thinking that this a particularly Schumann-y work. I have no idea why that piece isn't more well-known. It is absolutely captivating from the emphatic first two notes to the end.
The 4th symphony also is a good example -- perhaps more so since there are more "stormy" sections. Basically, anything with a lot of jumpy dotted rhythms juxtaposed with lyrical, flowing melodies and major/minor transitions that seem like they shouldn't work, but they somehow do. Maybe this doesn't make sense, but that's what Schumann is to me.
Kreisleriana | Fantasy in C
Part of the essence of Schumann is putting seemingly incompatible and disparate elements together to form a kind of unity. Therefore I choose these two as the two halves of Schumann: light and darkness. Two halves of the same work.
Alternately, I guess the Humoreske could do.
I think it must be the Fantasie in C.
Liederkreis op. 39 (Eichendorff)
Schumann himself declared it "the most romantic of all my works".
Dichterliebe.
Quote from: Florestan on February 09, 2022, 03:03:19 AM
Liederkreis op. 39 (Eichendorff)
Schumann himself declared it "the most romantic of all my works".
I'd have to agree with this. Op.39 has the longing, solitude, mystery of Romaticism in every measure and word
I do not have that Liederkreis, what's a good recording of it?
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 11, 2022, 02:44:15 AM
I do not have that Liederkreis, what's a good recording of it?
I have these
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51hQJ0ZfgwL._SY580_.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/aqe4BOPK0CzsaFW80XMydxQJwR0=/fit-in/355x302/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-16199722-1605147860-2664.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/LRAHlzKdeHjfhH9RK-vKNOywRHA=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-14957632-1584722856-4444.jpeg.jpg)
plus the Hyperion Complete Lieder but those are organized in such a messy way that it takes ages to find who sings what.
I never did any A/B comparisons and I never will, it's not my cup of tea. I think you can't go wrong with any of them. Very recently I listened to Bar/Parsons and loved it.
I have an earlier Schreier (with Shetler, I think) that I have had for the longest time and know best. Two with Fischer-Dieskau (usually earlier is better, I got a live one on Orfeo that must have been highly recommended), Gerhaher and two with women (Shirai and Lott, I think, not sure I ever listened to them, it was boxes/compilations not acquired for these recordings).
Dichterliebe is superior as a integrated cycle, i.e. not just a series of lieder (and has that great piano postlude); op.39 is moore loosely organized but I think the actual songs as separate songs in op.39 are unmatched in their highly romantic mood and expression.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 11, 2022, 11:00:27 AM
Dichterliebe is superior as a integrated cycle, i.e. not just a series of lieder (and has that great piano postlude); op.39 is moore loosely organized but I think the actual songs as separate songs in op.39 are unmatched in their highly romantic mood and expression.
I agree.
I listened today to the Schreier / Eschenbach performance of op. 39 and the very first song,
In der Fremde brought tears to my eyes instantly when the line
Aber Vater und Mutter sind lange totwas sung, because today my mother would have turned 81 (she died at 77) and my father died more than a year ago. It was like a punch in the stomach of my soul.
Gesange der Fruhe. Having seen patients on my psych rotation suffering from things like schizophrenia and other mental illness I won't even attempt to imagine how he was feeling in those last years, even more so back then when there were no "modern" (today's drugs are still quite crude) treatment. Gesange der Fruhe paints a haunting image.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 11, 2022, 02:44:15 AM
I do not have that Liederkreis, what's a good recording of it?
Up there with my favorites:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61kPC0cQ-WL.jpg)
Someone must have scanned a sun faded copy as the art looks better than that :)
Isn't this just another "name your fave Schumann work" topic?
I'd say you get closest to Schumann's essence with the early piano solo pieces, like Carnaval, DBT or Kreisleriana. The piano sonatas.
In those works he was least constrained by external demands.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 11, 2022, 02:44:15 AM
I do not have that Liederkreis, what's a good recording of it?
Schreier made four Schumann solo lieder CDs with Norman Shelter and they were collected together in a box. I just saw the box is going for a tenner on Amazon.co.uk - if they'll ship it to you, I'd snap it up.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Schumann-Lieder-Robert/dp/B000G1TE2S/ref=sr_1_15?crid=RJU9EJ1EY8RA&keywords=Schreier+schumann+cd&qid=1644746030&sprefix=schreier+schumann+cd%2Caps%2C58&sr=8-15
He also made a recording of duets with Varady and FiDi, Christopher Eschenbach on the piano, possibly worth hearing too, even though FiDi barks.
That being said, I haven't kept up with the world of Schumann songs on record for at least 10 years - there are probably new interesting ideas out there.