GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 08:38:03 AM

Title: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 08:38:03 AM
Why do you listen to them?

Are you actually tired of all the great works of all the main composers?

Or do you just want to be known as "that guy who listens to all those weird composers?"  ;D
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: The new erato on May 17, 2008, 08:44:49 AM
I find the byways fascinating. And there are lots of underrepresented talent. And listening to the minors put the majors into perspective. And having a broad repertoire knowledge is fulfilling in itself.

One can't only listen to op 131 and the St Matthew Passion.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Kullervo on May 17, 2008, 08:47:47 AM
I often ask myself the same question. I think for me it has something to do with the predominance of 20th century composers in my collection. The last century was very much the century of the Individual, and there were so many unique musical voices in those 100 years — I just have to hear them all!
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 08:52:32 AM
It seems to me, for example, that I'll never reach the bottom of the music trove of JS Bach.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Kullervo on May 17, 2008, 08:57:36 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 08:52:32 AM
It seems to me, for example, that I'll never reach the bottom of the music trove of JS Bach.

Probably not. :D How was Bach to know that one day someone would want to hear everything he ever wrote? It's too bad we only live (maybe) 100 years. :(
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 08:59:47 AM
Quote from: Corey on May 17, 2008, 08:57:36 AM
It's too bad we only live (maybe) 100 years. :(

Don't get me started.  >:(   ;D

Rarely does a day go by without me listening to some JS. I can listen to the cello suites alone over and over again.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Dundonnell on May 17, 2008, 09:50:45 AM
The sheer excitement of being able to play a CD of a piece one has never heard before and discovering what it is like! Often it does turn out to be run-of-the-mill but sometimes one does turn up a real undiscovered masterpiece which fills one with amazement and wonder....and THAT is a fantastic experience!
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: techniquest on May 19, 2008, 08:23:16 AM
Like Corey, I have a stack of music in my CD and mp3 collection from 20th century composers, and I am eternally grateful to both the Naxos label and ebay for introducing me to a huge range of music which would otherwise remain unheard. Some of it I'm not too keen on, some of it is frankly quite dull (I couldn't get into the Lilburn symphonies for example), but it's all about exploring and that's great fun.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Gabriel on May 19, 2008, 10:02:09 AM
Many times the best moments of the secondary composers can be at least as good as a good moment of the best composers. Perhaps as a whole their contribution to music is smaller - or less relevant - than the one of the greatest geniuses, but it doesn't mean that we have to ignore tons of remarkable music that has been written through many centuries.

A couple of days ago I made the remarkable discovery of a CD of Albrechtsberger string quartets in Hungaroton. It made me clear that Alberchtsberger was much more than (simply) the one who taught composition to the young Beethoven. Magnificently crafted music.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: 12tone. on May 19, 2008, 03:23:06 PM
It's like...Gottschalk is better than Chopin!  8)

*runs*
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: greg on May 19, 2008, 03:29:38 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 17, 2008, 09:50:45 AM
The sheer excitement of being able to play a CD of a piece one has never heard before and discovering what it is like! Often it does turn out to be run-of-the-mill but sometimes one does turn up a real undiscovered masterpiece which fills one with amazement and wonder....and THAT is a fantastic experience!
That's my answer........
plus, i just like to be familiar with as much music as possible. As much classical music as possible. That doesn't suck. And I have to like it. It has to sound good. How do you know something won't sound good to you because other people say so? Plus you'll just know more music period.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 19, 2008, 05:12:58 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 08:38:03 AM
Why do you listen to them?

Curiosity and historical value for the most part. Most of them don't ever survive more then a few listens, though every now and then you get the occasional forgotten gem. It's rare, but it happens.

What irritates me is people stuck into some feel-good, "let's promote the little guy" mentality which is inane and irritating for it's lack of respect towards artistic truth. Very, very few unknown composers deserve to be "better known" but according to those misfits there isn't a single third rate hack out there who doesn't deserve it's own niche. Come on, let's get real folks.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 20, 2008, 02:10:48 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 19, 2008, 05:12:58 PM
What irritates me is people stuck into some feel-good, "let's promote the little guy" mentality which is inane and irritating for it's lack of respect towards artistic truth. Very, very few unknown composers deserve to be "better known" but according to those misfits there isn't a single third rate hack out there who doesn't deserve it's own niche. Come on, let's get real folks.

When taken to the extreme that attitude can indeed be irritating, I agree. But OTOH the opposite position - "let's do down the little guy" - is equally irritating and carries an equal lack of respect, as does the use of the terminology 'hack'. The truth is, I have respect for anyone the strength of whose urge to create music has led them along the difficult and often painful path of becoming a composer.

Besides which, in between 'the immortals' and 'the hacks' (and much depends on where your cut-off points are for both categories) come a whole body of fascinating and rewarding figures. Both Corey and Gabriel make good points:

Quote from: CoreyThe last century was very much the century of the Individual, and there were so many unique musical voices in those 100 years

Quote from: GabrielMany times the best moments of the secondary composers can be at least as good as a good moment of the best composers. Perhaps as a whole their contribution to music is smaller - or less relevant - than the one of the greatest geniuses, but it doesn't mean that we have to ignore tons of remarkable music that has been written through many centuries.

In short, if you confine yourself to Bach, Beethoven and a couple of others you will miss out on all the things their music doesn't give you. I recognise that both of these are greater composers, but neither gives me the special 'whatever' that I find in Janacek, and that means so much to me. So I couldn't possibly be happy with them alone. And that, of course, is only one example.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2008, 03:07:08 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 17, 2008, 09:50:45 AM
The sheer excitement of being able to play a CD of a piece one has never heard before and discovering what it is like! Often it does turn out to be run-of-the-mill but sometimes one does turn up a real undiscovered masterpiece which fills one with amazement and wonder....and THAT is a fantastic experience!

YES
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: ChamberNut on May 20, 2008, 04:09:37 AM
And how do you define "less popular or talented composers" anyway?  What criteria do you use?  Composer whose record sales are outside the Top 100 or Top 200 composers in the classical genre?

I'm asking the question, because Janacek's name has been mentioned.  To me, he would seem to be one of the "popular and talented composers". ???
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 20, 2008, 04:17:11 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 20, 2008, 04:09:37 AM
And how do you define "less popular or talented composers" anyway?  What criteria do you use?  Composer whose record sales are outside the Top 100 or Top 200 composers in the classical genre?

I'm asking the question, because Janacek's name has been mentioned.  To me, he would seem to be one of the "popular and talented composers". ???

To me too - but then you get get folks round here who are loathe to admit anyone outside quite a narrow central core of composers to the very top set. Janacek tends to get lumped into a second layer with, say, composers such as Grieg or Falla. And I'm not complaining, mind you, as I can see why that would be, though he means as much or more to me than any other composer.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Grazioso on May 20, 2008, 04:30:44 AM
Exploration is fun and informative in and of itself, I've discovered many gems off the beaten path, and I do indeed get tired of hearing the same old canonical works. (And some of those just never did much for me, anyway. Some Bach, for example, I love, but much I really don't care for or about.)

For example, I've been exploring the complete symphony cycles of just about whatever composers I can get my hands on. I have around 50 different composers represented so far, with the selected symphonies of quite a few others. Have I encountered duds? Yes. But then again, I've also found masterworks like Pettersson's 7th (which can stand head to head with any great 20th-century symphony) and Korngold's Symphony in F#, as well as the beautiful and diverse symphonies of Sibelius's Finnish contemporary Leevi Madetoja, which are particular favorites of mine. And then there are symphonies by Bax, Barber, Diamond, Harris, Mathias, Honegger, Roussel, Rautavaara, Kokkonen, Norgard, Huber, Atterberg, Martinu, etc. that I also love. In fact, I've often gotten more enjoyment out of those than I have listening to the symphonies, of say, Brahms or Mozart.

Of course, I also periodically return to old core-repertoire favorites, having recently purchased a new cycle of Schumann's symphonies, for example, and my first new Mahler set in a decade.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: MN Dave on May 20, 2008, 05:38:22 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 20, 2008, 04:09:37 AM
And how do you define "less popular or talented composers" anyway?  What criteria do you use?  Composer whose record sales are outside the Top 100 or Top 200 composers in the classical genre?

I'm asking the question, because Janacek's name has been mentioned.  To me, he would seem to be one of the "popular and talented composers". ???

I think Janacek it probably in the top 100, so no, he's not one.

Maybe someone like Joly Braga Santos.  ;D
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: springrite on May 20, 2008, 05:39:57 AM
Maybe there should be the following catergories:

Less Popular BUT More Talented

More Popular BUT Less Talented
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: MN Dave on May 20, 2008, 05:42:31 AM
Maybe I should have titled this thread: Lesser Known  :-*
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 20, 2008, 05:42:35 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 20, 2008, 04:09:37 AM
And how do you define "less popular or talented composers" anyway?  What criteria do you use? 

I'm more then capable of discerning genius on my own without the need for a special criteria.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Hector on May 20, 2008, 06:05:41 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 19, 2008, 05:12:58 PM
Curiosity and historical value for the most part. Most of them don't ever survive more then a few listens, though every now and then you get the occasional forgotten gem. It's rare, but it happens.

What irritates me is people stuck into some feel-good, "let's promote the little guy" mentality which is inane and irritating for it's lack of respect towards artistic truth. Very, very few unknown composers deserve to be "better known" but according to those misfits there isn't a single third rate hack out there who doesn't deserve it's own niche. Come on, let's get real folks.

Pompous, elitist tosh.

Who the hell are you to judge "artistic truth"?

Hasn't it occurred to your tiny mind that these "little guys" may have been seeking "artistic truth" whatever that is?

As a "misfit" I seek out the lesser known, recognise their inadequacies but have the guts to admit that I enjoy a lot of them.

That does not change my opinion of the "greats" and I think that I am "getting real."
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 20, 2008, 10:45:21 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 20, 2008, 06:05:41 AM
Who the hell are you to judge "artistic truth"?

One of the few people left in this forsaken culture of ours who hasn't sold their soul and their mind to group-think oblivion. God forbid anybody should use their reason rather then their feelings.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 20, 2008, 12:43:48 PM
I don't think the self-righteousness of either Hector or Josquin is justified here. The composers who have been generally accepted as great have achieved their renown through a process of cultural endorsement that has included the efforts of numerous performers, listeners, scholars, and other composers. It's not any one individual's choice. Of course mistakes have been made and will continue to be made, with some degree of inflated reputation as well as the opposite, but then again there have also been many major rediscoveries. Yet with all due respect to the merits of some of the secondary figures, on the whole I don't think we have been cheated out of so many masterpieces as to call the accepted canon seriously into question.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Gabriel on May 20, 2008, 01:20:50 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 19, 2008, 05:12:58 PM
What irritates me is people stuck into some feel-good, "let's promote the little guy" mentality which is inane and irritating for it's lack of respect towards artistic truth.

Well, Mendelssohn said something like this in times when Carl Philipp Emanuel was the most acclaimed member of a distinguished musical family. And the "little guy" he presented again to the general audience turned to be one of the greatest composers ever.

And it is not an isolated example in history. Haydn also comes to my mind, and I am sure that among GMGers we can recollect other clear examples.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: MN Dave on May 20, 2008, 01:25:20 PM
I think we have here more explanations of why people listen to lesser known composers than why they aren't listening to the top 200.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 20, 2008, 05:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 20, 2008, 10:45:21 AM
One of the few people left in this forsaken culture of ours who hasn't sold their soul and their mind to group-think oblivion. God forbid anybody should use their reason rather then their feelings.

I'm not sure what you're driving at but liking a so-called minor composer does absolutely no harm to anyone.

If you're looking for decay in today's culture look to pop culture and greedy oil barons. Far more harm done there than one's enjoyment of lesser known classical figures.

BTW, did you get my PM awhile back, Jos?



Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Lethevich on May 21, 2008, 12:05:31 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 20, 2008, 05:48:29 PM
If you're looking for decay in today's culture look to pop culture and greedy oil barons.

People constantly whinging on the internet instead if doing anything useful can't help either ;)
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Hector on May 21, 2008, 04:37:20 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on May 20, 2008, 12:43:48 PM
I don't think the self-righteousness of either Hector or Josquin is justified here. The composers who have been generally accepted as great have achieved their renown through a process of cultural endorsement that has included the efforts of numerous performers, listeners, scholars, and other composers. It's not any one individual's choice. Of course mistakes have been made and will continue to be made, with some degree of inflated reputation as well as the opposite, but then again there have also been many major rediscoveries. Yet with all due respect to the merits of some of the secondary figures, on the whole I don't think we have been cheated out of so many masterpieces as to call the accepted canon seriously into question.

Well, I'm certainly not calling the accepted canon into question just endorsing those that seek pastures new.

I'd like to know what mistakes you think have been made and in what direction. That would be very interesting!
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 05:09:39 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 21, 2008, 04:37:20 AM
Well, I'm certainly not calling the accepted canon into question just endorsing those that seek pastures new.

I'd like to know what mistakes you think have been made and in what direction. That would be very interesting!

Sure. Among some of the re-evaluations upwards in the past 50-75 years:
- the first complete performances of Berlioz's Troyens
- increasing acceptance of Schubert's instrumental music
- the worldwide explosion of interest in Mahler and Bruckner
- the revival of Handel's operas, along with more performances of baroque operatic work from composer like Rameau and Lully
- the greater acceptance of Sibelius, who was at one time a totally reviled composer

No doubt others. Now you might say, "these are all canonical works, not less popular ones!" But if you look at performance history, you'll see that in say 1930-40, a lot of this work was far less played than today, and sometimes looked down upon.

More ramifications to this that I want to mention, but no time right now.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Hector on May 21, 2008, 06:37:55 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 05:09:39 AM
Sure. Among some of the re-evaluations upwards in the past 50-75 years:
- the first complete performances of Berlioz's Troyens
- increasing acceptance of Schubert's instrumental music
- the worldwide explosion of interest in Mahler and Bruckner
- the revival of Handel's operas, along with more performances of baroque operatic work from composer like Rameau and Lully
- the greater acceptance of Sibelius, who was at one time a totally reviled composer

No doubt others. Now you might say, "these are all canonical works, not less popular ones!" But if you look at performance history, you'll see that in say 1930-40, a lot of this work was far less played than today, and sometimes looked down upon.

More ramifications to this that I want to mention, but no time right now.

I did not ask for this which suggests what I suspected in the first place: you have, simply, not read in any detail or misunderstood my posts.

Therefore, I'll ask again: what mistakes do you think have been made, or am I misreading you and you have, indeed, listed the mistakes?

Putting aside the assertion that Schubert's instrumental music wasn't accepted (on who's authority is this based?) I thought that it was, merely, not regularly performed in public until Schnabel came along! However,...
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 06:49:15 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 21, 2008, 06:37:55 AM
I did not ask for this which suggests what I suspected in the first place: you have, simply, not read in any detail or misunderstood my posts.

Therefore, I'll ask again: what mistakes do you think have been made, or am I misreading you and you have, indeed, listed the mistakes?

Putting aside the assertion that Schubert's instrumental music wasn't accepted (on who's authority is this based?) I thought that it was, merely, not regularly performed in public until Schnabel came along! However,...

I have listed some instances where music that was formerly underestimated is now quite prominent. I don't propose to provide a complete catalog, if such a thing were possible. And I think I responded appropriately to your post.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Hector on May 22, 2008, 06:22:38 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 06:49:15 AM
I have listed some instances where music that was formerly underestimated is now quite prominent. I don't propose to provide a complete catalog, if such a thing were possible. And I think I responded appropriately to your post.

No you are not but merely passing on received opinion.

We can all do that. A pointless exercise.

Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 22, 2008, 07:40:43 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 22, 2008, 06:22:38 AM
No you are not but merely passing on received opinion.

We can all do that. A pointless exercise.



Then be clear about what you mean. I'm trying to respond to you in a reasonable manner, but if you want to call it "a pointless exercise," I can't be bothered.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Ten thumbs on May 22, 2008, 02:01:52 PM
Fifty years ago both Alkan and Scriabin were disregarded, or at best denigrated.
How many people have heard of Medtner today?
Thank goodness there is so much recorded music today because there are too few concerts to allow all worth while music to be heard in live performance.
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Christo on May 22, 2008, 11:11:46 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 20, 2008, 05:42:35 AM
I'm more then capable of discerning genius on my own without the need for a special criteria.

Statements like this are, generally speaking, a strong indication of an absence of genius with the pretender  :)
Title: Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 23, 2008, 07:01:40 PM
Quote from: Lethe on May 21, 2008, 12:05:31 AM
People constantly whinging on the internet instead if doing anything useful can't help either ;)

Hear, hear!