The British Composers Thread

[Irons]

I went for the Dale too - we'll have to compare impressions!  The Bliss conducts Bliss is very good - the old Decca-sourced recordings.  I liked the look of the Bainton/Clifford string quartets too.....

I have ordered the Bainton/Clifford and as postage remains the same, Tertis arrangements for viola for Delius/Ireland.

[relm1]

There is a lot of talk in this thread about British composers from 1860's to 1960's or so.  What about more recent composers?  Any British composers born after say 1970 that are blowing people away?  I myself quite like Ades.  His ballet, Dante, was very good and tonal throughout. 

[vandermolen]

There is a lot of talk in this thread about British composers from 1860's to 1960's or so.  What about more recent composers?  Any British composers born after say 1970 that are blowing people away?  I myself quite like Ades.  His ballet, Dante, was very good and tonal throughout. 

I like James MacMillan's 4th and 5th symphonies and A Christmas Oratorio.
He was born in 1959 however!

[Irons]

I have ordered the Bainton/Clifford and as postage remains the same, Tertis arrangements for viola for Delius/Ireland.

Thoroughly enjoyed string quartets by Edgar Bainton and Herbert Clifford. MusicWeb in their review make the valid point that although separated by two decades both cut from the same cloth. For this listener Clifford came under a big disadvantage as it followed Bainton who's quartet I adored. Music from the heart with strong overtones of Dvorak's string quartets, I thought. Follow that, Clifford! And he did, a magical moment in the second movement when the music changes gear, a simple manoeuvre with heart stopping effect. That so, it was Bainton in the search box of my eBay account! 

[Roy Bland]

There is a lot of talk in this thread about British composers from 1860's to 1960's or so.  What about more recent composers?  Any British composers born after say 1970 that are blowing people away?  I myself quite like Ades.  His ballet, Dante, was very good and tonal throughout. 

Is he a populist composer?

However i like
https://www.davidjohnroche.com/

[Daverz]

There is a lot of talk in this thread about British composers from 1860's to 1960's or so.  What about more recent composers?  Any British composers born after say 1970 that are blowing people away?  I myself quite like Ades.  His ballet, Dante, was very good and tonal throughout. 

A little older than Ades: Julian Anderson

[Roasted Swan]

A first listen to this disc;



This particular disc is NOT part of the current Dutton Vocalion sale - I think its been officially out of print for some time.  W H Reed is best known as Elgar's early biographer and helper with aspects of the violin concerto/sonata/leading the LSO for the premiere of the 2nd Symphony/publishing the sketches of the 3rd....

His own music has considerable worth and is quite beautifully played here by Robert Gibbs (who plays on Reed's own violin).  The music itself is technically often demanding but relatively slight in musical scale.  More substantial than true "salon" music but too hard for the amateur market (in terms of who might be buying the sheet music when this was first published)  The music in the string quartets recently recorded is more substantive but this is wholly enjoyable hearing.  There is a violin concerto which exists in piano and violin form only (the orchestral score/parts are currently lost) - but that is not included here....

[Roasted Swan]

I'm about half way through this biography of Peter Warlock;



I picked up a copy last year quite cheaply prompted by a brief discussion on the forum about the book/composer.  Curiously, when I read composer biographies they tend to make me engage all over again with the subject's music - but the opposite is the case here.  This is well-written and certainly detailed but Warlock is emerging as really not a very nice person at all(!)  Certainly in this modern age I suspect he would have been diagnosed with possibly several mental conditions.  The book quotes at length many Warlock letters to various people that I must admit I'm tending to skim over - all rather self-absorbed and "deep".  He seems to have developed intense friendships that then catastropically collapse - all rather tragic because clearly he had a brilliant mind.

Some years ago (around 1996) I conducted a concert where we gave the premiere of a suite of ealry/unusual Warlock pieces that had been orchestrated by the great Warlock scholar Fred Tomlinson (brother of Light Music expert/composer Ernest).  He called the suite "Bulgy Gogos Contingencies" and it includes 2 of his "Cod-Pieces" based on the Franck Symphony ("The Old Codger") and Beethoven's 5th ("Beethoven's Binge").

As a little aside - the copy of this book I picked up on ebay turns out to have been from the library of the composer Trevor Hold - it looks as if it was never read.....

[Irons]

I'm about half way through this biography of Peter Warlock;



I picked up a copy last year quite cheaply prompted by a brief discussion on the forum about the book/composer.  Curiously, when I read composer biographies they tend to make me engage all over again with the subject's music - but the opposite is the case here.  This is well-written and certainly detailed but Warlock is emerging as really not a very nice person at all(!)  Certainly in this modern age I suspect he would have been diagnosed with possibly several mental conditions.  The book quotes at length many Warlock letters to various people that I must admit I'm tending to skim over - all rather self-absorbed and "deep".  He seems to have developed intense friendships that then catastropically collapse - all rather tragic because clearly he had a brilliant mind.

Some years ago (around 1996) I conducted a concert where we gave the premiere of a suite of ealry/unusual Warlock pieces that had been orchestrated by the great Warlock scholar Fred Tomlinson (brother of Light Music expert/composer Ernest).  He called the suite "Bulgy Gogos Contingencies" and it includes 2 of his "Cod-Pieces" based on the Franck Symphony ("The Old Codger") and Beethoven's 5th ("Beethoven's Binge").

As a little aside - the copy of this book I picked up on ebay turns out to have been from the library of the composer Trevor Hold - it looks as if it was never read.....

Two things stand out for me, his obsession with Delius and his relationship with "Puma" Channing. If anyone was able to save Warlock from himself it was her. Beautiful and like himself unconventional but Warlock was bad news for anyone who came into his orbit including those who loved him.
Not your conventional "love" poem -

You've heard of the promiscuous puma,
She is of a most generous humour,
She can't say no to anyone,
Or rob a stranger of his fun.
Because of this sad moral lack
She spends her lifetime on her back;
But, as she says, what one can use
It seems wasteful to refuse!
 

[vandermolen]

There is a lot of talk in this thread about British composers from 1860's to 1960's or so.  What about more recent composers?  Any British composers born after say 1970 that are blowing people away?  I myself quite like Ades.  His ballet, Dante, was very good and tonal throughout. 

It gets a good review here:
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/24/the-dante-project-royal-ballet-review-wayne-mcgregor-thomas-ades-tacita-dean-edward-watson

[Roasted Swan]

Two things stand out for me, his obsession with Delius and his relationship with "Puma" Channing. If anyone was able to save Warlock from himself it was her. Beautiful and like himself unconventional but Warlock was bad news for anyone who came into his orbit including those who loved him.
Not your conventional "love" poem -

You've heard of the promiscuous puma,
She is of a most generous humour,
She can't say no to anyone,
Or rob a stranger of his fun.
Because of this sad moral lack
She spends her lifetime on her back;
But, as she says, what one can use
It seems wasteful to refuse!
 

There is a cruelty in that poem (and much of Heseltine's behaviour as described in the book) that is so strikingly at odds with the elegant beauty of his best music.  I find the notion of being cruel for cruelty's sake rather disturbing which is probably why I'm put off listening to his music for the time being.....

[Roasted Swan]

This is NOT a Hurwitz-bashing post but I am intrigued by his oft-repeated position that Arthur Sullivan is "Britain's Greatest Composer".  From my standpoint this is patently absurd for reasons I will explain in a moment.  I am not sure if this is a deliberate dog-whistle by Hurwitz just to wind folk up or a genuinely held position.  Hurwitz's justification is that Sullivan alone amongst British composers wrote pre-eminent work in a specific genre - ie comic opera.  So for all the wonderful (for example) symphonies by British composers none are pre-emnent in the way that Sullivan is in that field.

My feeling is that Sullivan - who I like and enjoy a lot - is in fact the ultimate example of why British music in the 19th Century "failed".  For all his natural talent he was willing to toe the line of musical conformity too comfortably.  His music adhered to socially acceptable norms in the way great composers reject.  Take ANY of his "serious" music away from the G&S works and never once does he seek to challenge conventions that are acceptable to both the wider public and more importantly the musical establishment.  So all his choral works, orchestral pieces are almost painfully "worthy".  Of course there are nice orchestral touches and memorable tunes along the way but next to the blazing genius of - say - Elgar there is no comparison.  Hurwitz's "pre-eminent" measure is invalid simply because not all music is of the same/equivalent stature for me.  I have always loved the G&S works - but would they be on my desert island, would I choose them as an example of operetta ahead of Lehar, did they impact on British Classical music in the years that followed their creation - personally I'd say no on each count.  Perhaps other folk feel differently.....?

[Symphonic Addict]

Hurwitz's claim about Sullivan lacks more objectivity and I also consider he does it that way to irk many people. I take his point about composing succesful comedy music is harder than composing sad/tragic music, and Sullivan excelled in the former. However, Sullivan's output is not as variegated as in other British composers. If he had written masterpieces in more musical forms, the reality could have been different, something other British composers did (or have done) very well. For me, a truly great composer is one who has written remarkable music in different mediums/musical forms and the consistency of the music is considerable or high. In some cases like in Italian composers it doesn't necessarily apply as many of them focused on opera and they are considered the best regarding that country or nation, nonetheless.

[vandermolen]

This is NOT a Hurwitz-bashing post but I am intrigued by his oft-repeated position that Arthur Sullivan is "Britain's Greatest Composer".  From my standpoint this is patently absurd for reasons I will explain in a moment.  I am not sure if this is a deliberate dog-whistle by Hurwitz just to wind folk up or a genuinely held position.  Hurwitz's justification is that Sullivan alone amongst British composers wrote pre-eminent work in a specific genre - ie comic opera.  So for all the wonderful (for example) symphonies by British composers none are pre-emnent in the way that Sullivan is in that field.

My feeling is that Sullivan - who I like and enjoy a lot - is in fact the ultimate example of why British music in the 19th Century "failed".  For all his natural talent he was willing to toe the line of musical conformity too comfortably.  His music adhered to socially acceptable norms in the way great composers reject.  Take ANY of his "serious" music away from the G&S works and never once does he seek to challenge conventions that are acceptable to both the wider public and more importantly the musical establishment.  So all his choral works, orchestral pieces are almost painfully "worthy".  Of course there are nice orchestral touches and memorable tunes along the way but next to the blazing genius of - say - Elgar there is no comparison.  Hurwitz's "pre-eminent" measure is invalid simply because not all music is of the same/equivalent stature for me.  I have always loved the G&S works - but would they be on my desert island, would I choose them as an example of operetta ahead of Lehar, did they impact on British Classical music in the years that followed their creation - personally I'd say no on each count.  Perhaps other folk feel differently.....?

Perhaps the highlighted quote tells us more about Hurwitz than Sullivan.

[Irons]

Hurwitz's claim about Sullivan lacks more objectivity and I also consider he does it that way to irk many people. I take his point about composing succesful comedy music is harder than composing sad/tragic music, and Sullivan excelled in the former. However, Sullivan's output is not as variegated as in other British composers. If he had written masterpieces in more musical forms, the reality could have been different, something other British composers did (or have done) very well. For me, a truly great composer is one who has written remarkable music in different mediums/musical forms and the consistency of the music is considerable or high. In some cases like in Italian composers it doesn't necessarily apply as many of them focused on opera and they are considered the best regarding that country or nation, nonetheless.

Much to my surprise I enjoy Sullivan's 'Irish' Symphony very much although dismissed by some. Perhaps the only thing holding him back was he was born too early missing the "English Musical Renascence". Obviously talented, his environment pushed him in one direction of which he was hugely successful at.   

[Albion]

Much to my surprise I enjoy Sullivan's 'Irish' Symphony very much although dismissed by some. Perhaps the only thing holding him back was he was born too early missing the "English Musical Renascence". Obviously talented, his environment pushed him in one direction of which he was hugely successful at.   

When do you date the "Renaissance" from? Sullivan's "The Tempest" (1861-62), Parry's "Prometheus Unbound" (1880), Elgar's "Enigma Variations" (1899), Vaughan Williams' "Tallis Fantasia" (1910)? The term itself is a complete and utter nonsensical academic concept since throughout the nineteenth century Potter, Bennett, Macfarren, Loder, Wallace, Balfe, Mackenzie, Parry, Goring Thomas, Cowen, Stanford and many others produced some wonderful stuff. That it wasn't allowed to enter the repertoire isn't their fault, there was just too much competition and characteristic British indifference...

[vandermolen]

When do you date the "Renaissance" from? Sullivan's "The Tempest" (1861-62), Parry's "Prometheus Unbound" (1880), Elgar's "Enigma Variations" (1899), Vaughan Williams' "Tallis Fantasia" (1910)? The term itself is a complete and utter nonsensical academic concept since throughout the nineteenth century Potter, Bennett, Macfarren, Loder, Wallace, Balfe, Mackenzie, Parry, Goring Thomas, Cowen, Stanford and many others produced some wonderful stuff. That it wasn't allowed to enter the repertoire isn't their fault, there was just too much competition and characteristic British indifference...

'Macfarren' really? I don't rate any of those composers other than Parry, Elgar and VW. Stanford wrote a fine 3rd and 5th Symphony, PC and Irish Rhapsody No.4 but that's about it as far as I'm concerned. I'd date the 'English Musical Renaissance' to the Tallis Fantasia in 1910 but that's obviously subjective.

[Albion]

'Macfarren' really? I don't rate any of those composers other than Parry, Elgar and VW. Stanford wrote a fine 3rd and 5th Symphony, PC and Irish Rhapsody No.4 but that's about it as far as I'm concerned. I'd date the 'English Musical Renaissance' to the Tallis Fantasia in 1910 but that's obviously subjective.

Macfarren's "Robin Hood", "She Stoops to Conquer", "St John the Baptist" and the overture "Romeo and Juliet" are splendid: get the scores (his symphonies are total crap, but the Violin Concerto is OK, it's in the Fitzwilliam). How on Dog's Earth can a "Renaissance" have begun with the RVW "Tallis"? It's sui generis even though Howells had an orgasm over it. The slow movements of Stanford's Piano Concerto No.1 and 6th Symphony are as gorgeous as it gets...

[Mapman]

Macfarren's "Robin Hood", "She Stoops to Conquer", "St John the Baptist" and the overture "Romeo and Juliet" are splendid: get the scores (his symphonies are total crap, but the Violin Concerto is OK, it's in the Fitzwilliam). How on Dog's Earth can a "Renaissance" have begun with the RVW "Tallis"? It's sui generis even though Howells had an orgasm over it. The slow movements of Stanford's Piano Concerto No.1 and 6th Symphony are as gorgeous as it gets...

Agreed about Stanford's 6th symphony. (And how he reuses that theme in the finale!)

[Roasted Swan]

When do you date the "Renaissance" from? Sullivan's "The Tempest" (1861-62), Parry's "Prometheus Unbound" (1880), Elgar's "Enigma Variations" (1899), Vaughan Williams' "Tallis Fantasia" (1910)? The term itself is a complete and utter nonsensical academic concept since throughout the nineteenth century Potter, Bennett, Macfarren, Loder, Wallace, Balfe, Mackenzie, Parry, Goring Thomas, Cowen, Stanford and many others produced some wonderful stuff. That it wasn't allowed to enter the repertoire isn't their fault, there was just too much competition and characteristic British indifference...

Just about any field of Art is littered with labels of questionable value - music as much as any.  Just checking did Baroque finish on a Thursday or was that neo-classicism?  Relatively speaking "The English Musical Renaissance" has more validity than some although whether it started on a weekday or a bank holiday is still hotly debated.  Joking aside, the key was not a work or a single composer but the start of an education system that encouraged British-born composers to be trained in their own country by teachers from within that same society.  Of course the gravitational pull of Germanic Art (who can forget the Mendelssohn Scholarship) was almost unavoidable even then and continued to dominate.  So the issue with most of the composers you list is not whether the music they wrote has/had merit but more to do with the fact that they struggled to find a form of musical expression that marked it out as "English" rather than a musical suburb of Leipzig.  Hence the "rebirth" was just that - the discovery of a musical voice that was identifiably/idiomatically from these Islands.

And just to completely destroy my own argument the greatest of all British composers was the one who attended no conservatory anywhere - Elgar....