GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: George on July 21, 2007, 07:27:17 PM

Title: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 21, 2007, 07:27:17 PM

Originally, I had the idea of starting a thread about creating a new box set of Beethoven's 32 sonatas by 32 different pianists.

I posted a list of my favorites in each (below) and tried to whittle it down unsuccessfully.

I decided it was too narrow a topic, so I have changed the topic to simply be "Beethoven's 32 Sonatas" so that we can have a thread to discuss anything in regards to these incredible works. Feel free to post reviews, your favorites, questions, etc.  :)


Early

1. Op 2/1 – Fischer/Schnabel --- Gulda, Kovacevich, Backhaus, Barenboim, Nat, Serkin

2. Op 2/2 – Fischer/Schnabel/Hungerford – Casadesus, Gulda, Gilels, Barenboim, Backhaus, Nat

3. Op 2/3 – Gulda – Gilels, Kempff(m), Backhaus, Barenboim, Solomon(Pearl) Kovacevich, Solomon, Nat

4. Op 7 – Richter – Barenboim, Nat, Gulda, Kempff(m), Hungerford, Gilels, Backhaus, Goode

5. Op 10/1 – Kovacevich – Fischer, Gulda, Gilels, Hungerford, Nat, Yudina, Kempff(m), Backhaus

6. Op 10/2 – Kovacevich – Fischer, Backhaus, Hungerford, Gulda, Schnabel, Serkin, Kempff (m)

7. Op 10/3 – Schnabel – Kovacevich, Gilels, Fischer, Richter, Kempff(m)/Backhaus /Gulda

8. "Pathetique"  Moravec–Serkin(m), Serkin(st),  Fischer,  Gilels,  Nat, Kovacevich, Gulda, Backhaus, Schnabel

9. Op 14/1 – Gulda – Fischer,  Backhaus,  Gieseking,  Kovacevich,  Schnabel

10. Op 14/2 – Barenboim – Richter,  Gulda,  Backhaus,  Kempff(m),  Goode

11. Op 22 – Barenboim – Gulda, Serkin, Gilels, Kempff(m), Richter, Nat, Backhaus

12. Op 26 – Richter – Barenboim, Yudina, Gilels,  Gulda,  Goode,  Backhaus, Nat

13. Op 27/1 – Fischer – Gilels, Gulda, Solomon, Schnabel, Hungerford, Serkin

14. Op 27/2 – "Moonlight" Lupu/Fischer/Roberts – Gilels/Rubinstein/Serkin(m),  Moravec, Gulda, Serkin (st), Solomon, Hungerford, Backhaus, Nat

15. Op 28 – "Pastoral"  Kovacevich – Gulda,  Kempff(st),  Schnabel


   
Middle Period Sonatas

16. Op 31/1 – Fischer – Gulda,  Kempff(m),  Gilels,  Goode,  Yudina, Roberts, Backhaus, Nat

17. Op 31/2 – "Tempest"   Fischer – Richter,  Gilels,  Gulda,  Schnabel,  Nat, Goode,  Backhaus,  Roberts,  Haskil

18. Op 31/3 – Fischer – Goode,  Kovacevich(gpotc),  Kempff(m),  Backhaus,  Haskil

19. Op 49/1 – Gulda – Richter,  Hungerford,  Fischer,  Schnabel,  Barenboim 

20. Op 49/2 – Gulda – Schnabel,  Hungerford,  Kempff(m),  Goode,  O'Conor,  Backhaus, Nat

21. Op 53 – "Waldstein" Serkin (m) - Fischer/Gilels, Horowitz, Schnabel, Backhaus, Nat, Gieseking,  Kempff(m)

22. Op 54 – Fischer – Richter, Solomon, Kempff(m), Yudina

23. Op 57 – "Appassionata" Fischer – Arrau/Richter, Roberts, Goode, Horowitz, Serkin(m), Nat, Kempff(m)

24. Op 78 – Barenboim/Kempff(m)/Serkin(m) – Schnabel, O'Conor

25. Op 79 – Goode/Kempff(m) – Schnabel,  Gilels,  Barenboim,  Gulda

26. Op 81a – "Les Adieux" Gilels/Fischer – Barenboim/Moravec/Serkin (m), Roberts, Rubinstein, Schnabel, Kovacevich



Late Sonatas

27. Op 90 – Fischer – Barenboim/Kempff(m)/Gilels,  Gulda,  Richter, Backhaus, Yudina

28. Op 101 – Fischer – Kempff(st),  Pollini,  Yudina, Gilels,  Barenboim   

29. "Hammerklavier"   Pollini – Gulda, Fischer, Solomon, Serkin, Yudina, Barenboim, Nat, Backhaus, Kempff(m), Gilels

30. Op 109 – Fischer/Pollini/Serkin(m) – Gulda, Schnabel, Barenboim, Richter, Backhaus, Serkin(st), Gilels, Nat, Kempff(m)

31. Op 110 – Serkin(st,1960) - Fischer/Kempff(st)/Gilels/Roberts , Pollini,  Nat, Schnabel,  Barenboim,  Richter,  Backhaus, Hungerford

32. Op 111 – Yudina(studio) - Fischer/Kempff(st)/Gulda,  Pollini/Barenboim/Richter/Schnabel/Serkin(st), Nat, Backhaus, Hungerford



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 22, 2007, 08:37:28 AM
If I were to try and choose a different pianist for each of the 32, this is what I would come up with (I know, I cheated a bit, Schnabel, Serkin, Kovacevich and Kempff were used twice. To be fair, only the Schnabel was from the same set, as the other three were from different labels/times. Also, these duplicates appear in different periods as well.):


Early Sonatas

1. Op 2/1 – Schnabel

2. Op 2/2 – Hungerford 

3. Op 2/3 – Solomon (Pearl)

4. Op 7 – Nat

5. Op 10/1 – Kovacevich

6. Op 10/2 – Backhaus

7. Op 10/3 – Gilels

8. "Pathetique"  Moravec

9. Op 14/1 – Gieseking

10. Op 14/2 – Barenboim

11. Op 22 – Serkin

12. Op 26 – Richter

13. Op 27/1 –Solomon

14. Op 27/2 – "Moonlight" - Lupu

15. Op 28 – "Pastoral" - Kempff(st)


   
Middle Period Sonatas

16. Op 31/1 – Goode

17. Op 31/2 – Haskil

18. Op 31/3 – Kovacevich(Philips)

19. Op 49/1 – Gulda

20. Op 49/2 – O'Conor

21. Op 53 – "Waldstein" - Horowitz (Sony)

22. Op 54 – Fischer

23. Op 57 – "Appassionata" – Arrau

24. Op 78 – Barenboim

25. Op 79 – Schnabel

26. Op 81a – "Les Adieux" - Roberts



Late Sonatas

27. Op 90 – Kempff(m)

28. Op 101 – Yudina

29. "Hammerklavier"   Pollini

30. Op 109 – Grimaud (live)

31. Op 110 – Serkin(st,1960)

32. Op 111 – Badura-Skoda (Live)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on July 22, 2007, 09:22:29 AM
This is crazy... I certainly have my favorites for particular sonatas, but I definitely don't have 32 pianists in the Beethoven piano sonatas!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on July 22, 2007, 09:27:50 AM
This is George's specialism. One in which I expect Todd shares. ;)

Bit like me with Rachmaninov's All-night Vigil: if I so desired, I could choose a different performance for each of the 15 parts. And still have four performances left untouched. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 22, 2007, 12:39:14 PM
Quote from: Mark on July 22, 2007, 09:27:50 AM
This is George's specialism. One in which I expect Todd shares. ;)

So do I, but I find it very difficult - not to say impossible, to name a single favorite in each Sonata. The truth is rarely unambiguous. On the contrary I enjoy all these different interpretations, which throw light upon each other.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 22, 2007, 02:06:55 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 22, 2007, 09:22:29 AM
This is crazy... I certainly have my favorites for particular sonatas, but I definitely don't have 32 pianists in the Beethoven piano sonatas!

Neither do I....yet.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 22, 2007, 02:32:11 PM
I've got more than 32 pianists in each work, and I wouldn't even try this, especially since some of the pianists would show up multiple times.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: val on July 23, 2007, 01:17:16 AM
For now my choice would be (but with some doubts):

opus 2/1: Schnabel or Arrau

opus 2/2: Arrau or Brendel (VOX)

opus 2/3: Richer (Prague)

opus 7: Michelangeli

opus 10/1: Brendel

opus 10/2: Kempff (1951) or Arrau

opus 10/3: Schnabel (here without any doubt!)

opus 13: Serkin

opus 14/1 and 2: Schnabel

opus 22: Arrau

opus 26: Backhaus or Gulda

opus 27/1: Kempff

opus 27/2: Kempff, Serkin or Arrau

opus 28: Backhaus, Brendel, Kempff

opus 31/1: Gulda, Brendel

opus 31/2: Brendel, Backhaus, Gulda

opus 31/3: Kempff, Haskil

opus 49/1 and 2: Brendel (VOX)

opus 53: Arrau, Schnabel

opus 54: Backhaus

opus 57: Backhaus, Richter (RCA), Richter (Prague)

opus 78: Kempff

opus 79: Gulda, Backhaus

opus 81 A: Serkin

opus 90: Solomon

opus 101: Arrau, Richter (Prague)

opus 106: Gilels, Brendel (VOX), Richter (Prague), Arrau

opus 109: Serkin, Gulda

opus 110: Gulda, Solomon, Schnabel, Backhaus

opus 111: Gulda, Solomon
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on July 23, 2007, 02:54:58 AM
Quote from: George on July 21, 2007, 07:27:17 PM
Just like the title says, if you could create a new box set of Beethoven's 32 sonatas by 32 different pianists, who would they be and which works would they play?

(I will whittle this list down tomorrow, as I don't have time right now. It's a list I have been compiling of my favorites, in order, left to right. Fischer is Annie Fischer)


Early

1. Op 2/1 – Fischer/Schnabel --- Gulda, Kovacevich, Backhaus, Barenboim, Nat, Serkin

2. Op 2/2 – Fischer/Schnabel/Hungerford – Casadesus, Gulda, Gilels, Barenboim, Backhaus, Nat

3. Op 2/3 – Gulda – Gilels, Kempff(m), Backhaus, Barenboim, Solomon(Pearl) Kovacevich, Solomon, Nat

4. Op 7 – Richter – Barenboim, Nat, Gulda, Kempff(m), Hungerford, Gilels, Backhaus, Goode

5. Op 10/1 – Kovacevich – Fischer, Gulda, Gilels, Hungerford, Nat, Yudina, Kempff(m), Backhaus

6. Op 10/2 – Kovacevich – Fischer, Backhaus, Hungerford, Gulda, Schnabel, Serkin, Kempff (m)

7. Op 10/3 – Schnabel – Kovacevich, Gilels, Fischer, Richter, Kempff(m)/Backhaus /Gulda

8. "Pathetique"  Moravec–Serkin(m), Serkin(st),  Fischer,  Gilels,  Nat, Kovacevich, Gulda, Backhaus, Schnabel

9. Op 14/1 – Gulda – Fischer,  Backhaus,  Gieseking,  Kovacevich,  Schnabel

10. Op 14/2 – Barenboim – Richter,  Gulda,  Backhaus,  Kempff(m),  Goode

11. Op 22 – Barenboim – Gulda, Serkin, Gilels, Kempff(m), Richter, Nat, Backhaus

12. Op 26 – Richter – Barenboim, Yudina, Gilels,  Gulda,  Goode,  Backhaus, Nat

13. Op 27/1 – Fischer – Gilels, Gulda, Solomon, Schnabel, Hungerford, Serkin

14. Op 27/2 – "Moonlight" Lupu/Fischer/Roberts – Gilels/Rubinstein/Serkin(m),  Moravec, Gulda, Serkin (st), Solomon, Hungerford, Backhaus, Nat

15. Op 28 – "Pastoral"  Kovacevich – Gulda,  Kempff(st),  Schnabel


   
Middle Period Sonatas

16. Op 31/1 – Fischer – Gulda,  Kempff(m),  Gilels,  Goode,  Yudina, Roberts, Backhaus, Nat

17. Op 31/2 – "Tempest"   Fischer – Richter,  Gilels,  Gulda,  Schnabel,  Nat, Goode,  Backhaus,  Roberts,  Haskil

18. Op 31/3 – Fischer – Goode,  Kovacevich(gpotc),  Kempff(m),  Backhaus,  Haskil

19. Op 49/1 – Gulda – Richter,  Hungerford,  Fischer,  Schnabel,  Barenboim 

20. Op 49/2 – Gulda – Schnabel,  Hungerford,  Kempff(m),  Goode,  O'Conor,  Backhaus, Nat

21. Op 53 – "Waldstein" Serkin (m) - Fischer/Gilels, Horowitz, Schnabel, Backhaus, Nat, Gieseking,  Kempff(m)

22. Op 54 – Fischer – Richter, Solomon, Kempff(m), Yudina

23. Op 57 – "Appassionata" Fischer – Arrau/Richter, Roberts, Goode, Horowitz, Serkin(m), Nat, Kempff(m)

24. Op 78 – Barenboim/Kempff(m)/Serkin(m) – Schnabel, O'Conor

25. Op 79 – Goode/Kempff(m) – Schnabel,  Gilels,  Barenboim,  Gulda

26. Op 81a – "Les Adieux" Gilels/Fischer – Barenboim/Moravec/Serkin (m), Roberts, Rubinstein, Schnabel, Kovacevich



Late Sonatas

27. Op 90 – Fischer – Barenboim/Kempff(m)/Gilels,  Gulda,  Richter, Backhaus, Yudina

28. Op 101 – Fischer – Kempff(st),  Pollini,  Yudina, Gilels,  Barenboim   

29. "Hammerklavier"   Pollini – Gulda, Fischer, Solomon, Serkin, Yudina, Barenboim, Nat, Backhaus, Kempff(m), Gilels

30. Op 109 – Fischer/Pollini/Serkin(m) – Gulda, Schnabel, Barenboim, Richter, Backhaus, Serkin(st), Gilels, Nat, Kempff(m)

31. Op 110 – Serkin(st,1960) - Fischer/Kempff(st)/Gilels/Roberts , Pollini,  Nat, Schnabel,  Barenboim,  Richter,  Backhaus, Hungerford

32. Op 111 – Yudina(studio) - Fischer/Kempff(st)/Gulda,  Pollini/Barenboim/Richter/Schnabel/Serkin(st), Nat, Backhaus, Hungerford



  George, what can I say..you are a true Beethoven Specialist.  I can not think of anybody on this forum that knows the Beethoven sonatas quite as well as you do.  I have read your previous threads on the old GMG forum where you have compared all the various recordings of the sonatas ranking them according to ENJOYMENT  :) (this is the sort of ranking method that we need more of on the GMG forum) I followed your advice and picked up the GULDA BOXSET last March....I ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT!!!!!

marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2007, 03:07:58 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 23, 2007, 02:54:58 AM
  George, what can I say..you are a true Beethoven Specialist.  I can not think of anybody on this forum that knows the Beethoven sonatas quite as well as you do.  I have read your previous threads on the old GMG forum where you have compared all the various recordings of the sonatas ranking them according to ENJOYMENT  :) (this is the sort of ranking method that we need more of on the GMG forum) I followed your advice and picked up the GULDA BOXSET last March....I ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT!!!!!

marvin

I'm very glad to hear you enjoyed the Gulda, it certainly is an incredible bargain!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2007, 03:17:36 AM

I've decided to expand the scope of this thread to simply be Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. I will change the thread title.

This way, we'll have one place to discuss them in a more general way.


I plan to start listening to my Goode cycle (and some other single and double discs, including Eschenbach's EMI 2fer) for the first time and will post my thoughts here.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2007, 03:24:10 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 22, 2007, 09:22:29 AM
This is crazy... I certainly have my favorites for particular sonatas, but I definitely don't have 32 pianists in the Beethoven piano sonatas!

I know, I have since changed the topic. I hope that will open up the discussion.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2007, 03:25:53 AM
Quote from: premont on July 22, 2007, 12:39:14 PM
So do I, but I find it very difficult - not to say impossible, to name a single favorite in each Sonata. The truth is rarely unambiguous. On the contrary I enjoy all these different interpretations, which throw light upon each other.

You make a great point. I have since widened the focus of this thread so that I hope you and others with post your thoughts about the sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2007, 03:30:55 AM
Quote from: val on July 23, 2007, 01:17:16 AM
For now my choice would be (but with some doubts):

opus 2/1: Schnabel or Arrau

opus 2/2: Arrau or Brendel (VOX)....


....opus 111: Gulda, Solomon


Thanks for posting this, Val!  :)

I take it Brendel's listings are only VOX where indicated and the others are Philips?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on July 23, 2007, 07:54:24 AM
George, you really don't like Gieseking in Opp. 109 and 110, huh?  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2007, 08:10:08 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 23, 2007, 07:54:24 AM
George, you really don't like Gieseking in Opp. 109 and 110, huh?  ;)

I do, actually, he's just not among my favorites. There is a nice tenderness about his playing. However, I think that the sound limitations hinder the impact of the performance, especially in louder passages. Also in Op. 110, he rushes though the central movement, ruining it for me.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MishaK on July 23, 2007, 08:28:44 AM
Quote from: George on July 22, 2007, 08:37:28 AM
Middle Period Sonatas

...

19. Op 49/1 – Gulda

20. Op 49/2 – O'Conor

IIRC, these two were written by Beethoven much earlier and only published fairly late. But stylistically they should be considered "early" sonatas. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2007, 09:58:29 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on July 23, 2007, 08:28:44 AM
IIRC, these two were written by Beethoven much earlier and only published fairly late. But stylistically they should be considered "early" sonatas. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You aren't wrong...

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 23, 2007, 12:43:07 PM
OK, here's my list based on what I have and have heard. There will be a number of repetitions as I don't have 32 pianists doing the PS

Op 2/1 Richter
Op 2/2 Richter-Haaser
Op2/3 Richter
Op 7 Brendel (VOX)
Op 10/1 Schnabel
Op 10/2 Hungerford
Op 10/3 Argerich (bet that one's a surprise!)
Op 13 Richter
Op 14/1 Barenboim EMI
Op 14/2 Richter
Op 22 Kempff
Op 26 Richter
Op 27/1 Fischer
Op 27/2 Solomon
Op 28 Sokolov
Op 31/1 Renard
Op 31/2 Hungerford
Op 31/3 Rubinstein
Op 49/1 Fischer
Op49/2 Gilels
Op 53 Tomsic
Op 54 Fischer
Op 57 Richter or Rubinstein '45
Op 78 Gulda
Op 79 Schnabel
Op 81a Gilels
Op 90 Moravec
Op 101 Fischer
Op 106 Solomon
Op 109 Levy
Op 110 Hungerford
Op 111 Arrau (DVD)

Fischer is Annie
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: BorisG on July 23, 2007, 02:06:12 PM
I am surpised there is not much mention of Gould.  ???I like him for the earlies and the Hammer. Sprinkeled throughout the remaining, Lortie, Gulda, Kovacevich, Kempff, Gilels, Brendel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on July 24, 2007, 12:17:05 AM
Quote from: George on July 21, 2007, 07:27:17 PM
Originally, I had the idea of starting a thread about creating a new box set of Beethoven's 32 sonatas by 32 different pianists.

I posted a list of my favorites in each (below) and tried to whittle it down unsuccessfully.

I decided it was too narrow a topic, so I have changed the topic to simply be "Beethoven's 32 Sonatas" so that we can have a thread to discuss anything in regards to these incredible works. Feel free to post reviews, your favorites, questions, etc.  :)

Excellent thread George! :)

I'm not very knowledgeable on the LvB sonatas - I've had an episode of several years that I was off piano solo repertoire altogether - but I'm catching up now!  ;D However, now my interest is back, it seems to shift towards HIP performances. As you know, I'm very much into Paul Komen's LvB recordings lately.
All this has not put me of the "regular" piano recordings, but does affect my taste in these.

Browsing to your list I noticed some of my own favourites like Schnabel, Solomon and Kempff. Though my appreciation for Kempff seems to be fading a bit... Annie Fischer is prominently present in your list - I heard her Beethoven a few times and found it very attractive - "Schumannesque" I would say. Need to check her LvB some time!. That goes for Backhaus too - are you refering to his first LvB cycle or his second?

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 24, 2007, 04:42:41 AM
I've listened - following George's list - to the late three sonatas interpreted by Schnabel, Gulda Serkin, Pollini, Kempff, Richter, Yudina and Brendel.
Neither of these sounded "wrong" or plain inferior to another one considering the pianist relationship with the music; but if I should rate them on my taste, I'd say that Richter is the only one who almost disappointed me - some passages are blury, he takes the Allegro Molto from Op. 110 with exhausting slowness. Schnabel is the more literally visionary interpreter, so maybe Schnabel's late 3 sonatas may be considered quite philological, considering the adherence to the original poetical issue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 05:32:41 AM
Quote from: Que on July 24, 2007, 12:17:05 AM
Excellent thread George! :)

Thanks!

Quote
I'm not very knowledgeable on the LvB sonatas - I've had an episode of several years that I was off piano solo repertoire altogether - but I'm catching up now!  ;D However, now my interest is back, it seems to shift towards HIP performances. As you know, I'm very much into Paul Komen's LvB recordings lately.
All this has not put me of the "regular" piano recordings, but does affect my taste in these.

Yes, I hope to get Brautigam's cycle once it is finished.

Quote
Browsing to your list I noticed some of my own favourites like Schnabel, Solomon and Kempff. Though my appreciation for Kempff seems to be fading a bit... Annie Fischer is prominently present in your list - I heard her Beethoven a few times and found it very attractive - "Schumannesque" I would say. Need to check her LvB some time!. That goes for Backhaus too - are you refering to his first LvB cycle or his second?

Q


Hold off on Annie, if you can, as I may be able to help you out there. The Backhaus is from the stereo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 05:33:50 AM
Quote from: Scriptavolant on July 24, 2007, 04:42:41 AM
I've listened - following George's list - to the late three sonatas interpreted by Schnabel, Gulda Serkin, Pollini, Kempff, Richter, Yudina and Brendel.
Neither of these sounded "wrong" or plain inferior to another one considering the pianist relationship with the music; but if I should rate them on my taste, I'd say that Richter is the only one who almost disappointed me - some passages are blury, he takes the Allegro Molto from Op. 110 with exhausting slowness. Schnabel is the more literally visionary interpreter, so maybe Schnabel's late 3 sonatas may be considered quite philological, considering the adherence to the original poetical issue.

Which Richter did you hear?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 24, 2007, 07:26:30 AM
Quote from: George on July 24, 2007, 05:33:50 AM
Which Richter did you hear?

Sviatoslav, the pianist.  :D

(It's hard to know, it is a downloaded set including Eroica and Diabelli Variations and some other piano sonata. No dates or labels were added to the set unfortunately.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Larry Rinkel on July 24, 2007, 08:18:48 AM
No mention here so far of Charles Rosen, whose late sonatas I very much like, or Eric Heidsieck.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 24, 2007, 10:06:09 AM
Charles Rosen's Beethoven seems very hard to trace. I'm sure George was looking for the Rosen, so did I with no success.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 24, 2007, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: Scriptavolant on July 24, 2007, 10:06:09 AM
Charles Rosen's Beethoven seems very hard to trace. I'm sure George was looking for the Rosen, so did I with no success.

Rosens late LvB sonatas nos: 27-32 incl. are contained in the Sony 60 CD LvB masterworks-box, price 40 Euro´s:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1028313
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on July 24, 2007, 10:17:27 AM
Or:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000291P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 24, 2007, 10:25:31 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 24, 2007, 10:17:27 AM
Or:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000291P

But this offer from Amazon is second hand and more expensive ($60). And in the Sony box you get a lot of very interesting recordings in the bargain, e.g. Zinman´s Symphonies, Concertos and Ouvertures.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on July 24, 2007, 11:23:01 AM
Good call
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sidoze on July 24, 2007, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 23, 2007, 12:43:07 PM
Op 111 Arrau (DVD)

There is something indescribably special about watching this performance. Only word I can come up with is the old hackneyed 'spiritual'. It gives a wonderful demonstration of how his hands pretty much knead the keys and the way he uses his arm weight. In fact I think it's one of those performances which will seem revelatory to people who dislike Arrau, just like the 1960 live Chopin Preludes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on July 24, 2007, 06:08:11 PM
Quote from: sidoze on July 24, 2007, 01:47:56 PM
There is something indescribably special about watching this performance. Only word I can come up with is the old hackneyed 'spiritual'. It gives a wonderful demonstration of how his hands pretty much knead the keys and the way he uses his arm weight. In fact I think it's one of those performances which will seem revelatory to people who dislike Arrau, just like the 1960 live Chopin Preludes.

I've only seen it on YouTube, but I definitely agree (and likewise about the live Preludes).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 24, 2007, 06:08:11 PM
I've only seen it on YouTube, but I definitely agree (and likewise about the live Preludes).

I'm watching it now (didn't know it was on youtube). Nice stuff! Why is it that the video rarely synchs up with the audio on youtube?

Check PM?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Steve on July 24, 2007, 06:36:58 PM
Did Serkin record a complete cycle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on July 24, 2007, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: Steve on July 24, 2007, 06:36:58 PM
Did Serkin record a complete cycle?

Nope
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Steve on July 24, 2007, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 24, 2007, 06:46:40 PM
Nope

That's too bad. Thanks for the response, though. Which of them did he put on record?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: BorisG on July 25, 2007, 12:39:59 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 24, 2007, 06:57:54 PM
That's too bad. Thanks for the response, though. Which of them did he put on record?

According to one discography, 17 of them. I do not feel like listing them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 25, 2007, 06:04:23 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 24, 2007, 06:36:58 PM
Did Serkin record a complete cycle?

Link to a thread on the old GMG that should answer your questions... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12959.0.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: BorisG on July 25, 2007, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: George on July 24, 2007, 06:23:50 PM
Why is it that the video rarely synchs up with the audio on youtube?


YT malware infestation? ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 09, 2007, 07:01:32 PM
Tomorrow, on my day off form work, I plan to listen to some of Goode's Beethoven cycle (starting at the beginning) and will be posting my reviews here as I progress.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 10, 2007, 01:59:52 PM

Richter plays the hell out of Beethoven's Op. 111, Movement One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvJU85U_gA&mode=related&search=)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Haffner on August 10, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: George on August 10, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
Richter plays the hell out of Beethoven's Op. 111, Movement One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvJU85U_gA&mode=related&search=)






Supa-Dupa JA!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on August 13, 2007, 04:11:32 AM
Just simply fantastic.

My library is swelling up nicely. Gilels, some latest Brendel to fill the holes in, some Askhenazy and Pollini, and just recently 14 LPs with Kempff's '64 cycle. The box actually contains the complete piano music, including bagatelles and the Grosse Fuge for 4 hands. Anda and Demus play the non 32-pieces. I'm fine for a while.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 13, 2007, 05:30:42 AM

Richard Goode plays Beethoven

Op. 2, No. 1 - Goode chooses middle of the road tempos with a piano that is slightly too distantly miked for my taste. He plays well within the limits of classical style, more than any other performer I have heard in these works, an aspect that takes some getting used to. However, once I was able to accept that he wasn't going to barnstorm this work like Schnabel or Annie Fischer (my two favorites in this sonata), I was able to sit back and enjoy his solid, elegant playing. What it lacked in excitement, it sure had in beauty, especially in the second movement. Here his style is perfect for the music, with a supple, gentle touch that was only helped by the sonics. In fact, I can't remember if I have ever heard this movement played better. The minuet was absolutely characteristic, so much so that I could picture aristocrats dancing to it. In the finale, he clearly tries to generate more drama, but it fails to convince in the end.     

Op.2, No. 2 - Again, Goode plays well within the classical idiom, only here he is helped by even better sound. As in number 1, his slow movement takes the playing up a couple notches, without reaching the heights of its predecessor. I loved his playfulness in the third movement, with an impressive liquid tone. The finale provides a fitting ending to this interpretation, with a slowish tempo that fits his beautiful tone and style. When the more dramatic moments arrive, he plays convincingly, with a solid technique.     

Op.2, No. 3 - This is the opening movement that I had been waiting for. He plays with power, excitement and beauty. His reliable, solid technique served him well here. He keeps nice breathing room between phrases and outlines the sonata form impressively. It all makes perfect sense, yet is not dull or academic. In the second movement he is just as incredible, conjuring up a spellbinding mood with gorgeous playing married with great brio. In the third movement he has an infectious spark to his playing with great wit and playfulness. The finale is at the same high level, ending this Opus at a much higher level than it began. Only Gulda presents an interpretation that is equal to Goode's masterful interpretation.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2007, 07:50:44 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 13, 2007, 04:11:32 AM
My library is swelling up nicely. Gilels, some latest Brendel to fill the holes in, some Askhenazy and Pollini, and just recently 14 LPs with Kempff's '64 cycle. The box actually contains the complete piano music, including bagatelles and the Grosse Fuge for 4 hands. Anda and Demus play the non 32-pieces. I'm fine for a while.
Right!
Stumbled across a Supraphon LP with Moravec playing op. 90 (PC 4 on the flip side) today. Shall compare.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sidoze on August 14, 2007, 08:52:24 AM
Quote from: George on August 10, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
Richter plays the hell out of Beethoven's Op. 111, Movement One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvJU85U_gA&mode=related&search=)

compared to the Leipzig recital, that is rather tame.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 14, 2007, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2007, 07:50:44 AM
Right!
Stumbled across a Supraphon LP with Moravec playing op. 90 (PC 4 on the flip side) today. Shall compare.

Moravec's performance of Op 90 is my favourite
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 14, 2007, 06:16:54 PM
Quote from: sidoze on August 14, 2007, 08:52:24 AM
compared to the Leipzig recital, that is rather tame.

If only the price wasn't $999.99 on amazon.  :-[
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mahlertitan on August 14, 2007, 09:29:03 PM
I just want to say that regardless of whoever is playing it, LVB's piano sonatas are brilliant.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2007, 11:12:09 PM
Let me paraphrase Leif Ove Andsnes: Nothing is as dead as sheet music.

I passed on the opportunity to buy a 70s Philips LP with Brendel playing Pathetique, Moonlight and Appasionata (I think it was Appasionata) yesterday. Bad decision?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 15, 2007, 01:45:05 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2007, 11:12:09 PM
I passed on the opportunity to buy a 70s Philips LP with Brendel playing Pathetique, Moonlight and Appasionata (I think it was Appasionata) yesterday. Bad decision?

I haven't heard anything from that  cycle, but I have sampled his other two. From what I have heard, I'd say that you didn't make a bad decision.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 15, 2007, 04:48:24 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2007, 11:12:09 PMI passed on the opportunity to buy a 70s Philips LP with Brendel playing Pathetique, Moonlight and Appasionata (I think it was Appasionata) yesterday. Bad decision?


Depends on the style you like.  These particular named sonatas aren't Brendel's strong suit in his 70s cycle.  He's better in the later sonatas in that cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on August 15, 2007, 05:20:25 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 15, 2007, 04:48:24 AM

Depends on the style you like.  These particular named sonatas aren't Brendel's strong suit in his 70s cycle.  He's better in the later sonatas in that cycle.

Isn't Brendel's later cycle generally his best, anyway? Not that I've sampled his earlier cycles, but I was under the impression that this was the consensus... I might be wrong. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 15, 2007, 05:26:03 AM
Quote from: Renfield on August 15, 2007, 05:20:25 AMIsn't Brendel's later cycle generally his best, anyway?



No.  Most people seem to prefer his Vox cycle.  I prefer his second cycle overall, though the Vox and even the digital cycle have stronger performances in some works.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on August 15, 2007, 05:36:45 AM
Ah well. At EUR 5 maybe it was a bad decision. Was it the BOFs at Penguin (I do agree with them sometimes) who preferred Brendel's 70s Moonlight to the other two? Got his Vox anyway, and I like his style of playing. The LPis probably still there.

(Should get that Richter recital with op. 111. Wham Bam is also good in LvB.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on August 15, 2007, 05:44:46 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 15, 2007, 05:26:03 AM


No.  Most people seem to prefer his Vox cycle.  I prefer his second cycle overall, though the Vox and even the digital cycle have stronger performances in some works.   

Interesting... I only have his digital cycle, myself, so I can't offer a personal opinion of how it compares to the others. Regardless, I wouldn't exactly call it bad. :)

Has the Vox cycle been issued on CD, though? Scratch that: I'm blind. :P

Thanks for the recommendation. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 15, 2007, 01:28:44 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 15, 2007, 05:36:45 AM
(Should get that Richter recital with op. 111. Wham Bam is also good in LvB.)

Which one? The one sidoze posted? Is so, please PM me?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 16, 2007, 12:42:23 AM
Quote from: George on August 15, 2007, 01:28:44 PM
Which one? The one sidoze posted? Is so, please PM me?

The Richter in Leipzig recital is the one I think he is referring to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: rw1883 on September 25, 2007, 12:55:22 PM
Has anyone bought or heard this set? 

http://www.amazon.com/Dino-Ciani-Rediscovered-Beethovens-Complete/dp/B00018D472/ref=cm_lmf_tit_11/102-9817053-6018502 (http://www.amazon.com/Dino-Ciani-Rediscovered-Beethovens-Complete/dp/B00018D472/ref=cm_lmf_tit_11/102-9817053-6018502)

For $45 it seems like a good bargain.  All I remember is that Ciani died tragically at a young age (32-33?).  There doesn't seem to be many reviews of his work, so any input would really be great.  Thank you...

Paul
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 25, 2007, 01:53:41 PM
Dirk has this set so he could let you know. I believe he said that the sound is not that good. The performances may be a different matter.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 25, 2007, 05:08:08 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 25, 2007, 01:53:41 PM
Dirk has this set so he could let you know. I believe he said that the sound is not that good. The performances may be a different matter.

Orbital has it as well. I think he feels the same about the sound, but you could certainly PM him.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sidoze on September 26, 2007, 10:53:35 AM
I think it was Distler who said that the sound is like looking at the moon through the wrong end of a telescope.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: orbital on September 26, 2007, 11:09:14 AM
Quote from: George on September 25, 2007, 05:08:08 PM
Orbital has it as well. I think he feels the same about the sound, but you could certainly PM him.
I don't have his Beethoven. I have quite a bit of Chopin from him: Etudes (recorded at home), Nocturnes (a single recital), Mazurkas (selection) all live. I think 90% of his output are live recordings.

The Chopin recordings' sound is not very bad though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on September 26, 2007, 11:21:23 AM
Quote from: sidoze on September 26, 2007, 10:53:35 AM
I think it was Distler who said that the sound is like looking at the moon through the wrong end of a telescope.

Not a bad description, I'd say. I have online friends who think this is one of the most amazing Beethoven sets in existence, a veritable treasure trove of unique interpretation. Seriously...one guy I know puts it in the same league with Schnabel and Annie Fischer. For me, however, this set is the very definition of "mixed bag" inconsistency. Yes, some performances are stunningly distinctive, evocative, almost revelatory...but...well, others definitely aren't. The "aren't" selections range from purely quirky to just mundane note-plunking, with abundant finger-slips, etc. I've been through the set one time complete, and I've gone back to certain performances, but all this was MANY months ago, so I won't pretend to recall which are which. And the damn sound pretty much rules it out for anyone who isn't a die-hard Ciani fan. IIRC, these were recorded during a series of live performances, from somewhere in the audience on amateur gear, which explains the mega-distant perspective and sometimes annoying extraneous noise. If I haven't frustrated potential buyers yet, let me state that the current prices being quoted don't impress me, since this set was available a couple of years ago at something like $20 or less; this, in fact, is one reason I'm not personally stewing about the bad sound that much...I got the set super-cheap. IF you can get it that low-priced, I'd say it's worth it just to have Ciani's read on many of these sonatas (I feel much the same way about Nat's set of Beethoven), but be ready for the dreck sound and please do NOT buy this as your introduction to or only copy of Beethoven's sonatas.

*sigh*

I guess it's time to pull this box out and start re-listening, so I can provide a more helpful analysis. If I do so in the near future, I'll come back and give you my refreshed view of this set.

Cheers,

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 26, 2007, 01:52:49 PM
The Ciani cycle has possibly the worst sounding recordings I've ever heard.  Some of the sonatas don't even sound like a piano is being played at times.  (Can't remember which; I did a write up on the prior forum, though.)  Ciani's playing is quite fine on a technical level most of the time, and he's artistically compelling in a few works, but mostly he falls flat as an LvB interpreter.  Literally dozens of complete cycles are better.  Also, $45 is a bit steep for the set.  Shop around a bit if you really want it - I picked mine up for $18, shipping included, though I can't recall the shop at present.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: rw1883 on September 26, 2007, 02:26:05 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 26, 2007, 01:52:49 PM
The Ciani cycle has possibly the worst sounding recordings I've ever heard.  Some of the sonatas don't even sound like a piano is being played at times.  (Can't remember which; I did a write up on the prior forum, though.)  Ciani's playing is quite fine on a technical level most of the time, and he's artistically compelling in a few works, but mostly he falls flat as an LvB interpreter.  Literally dozens of complete cycles are better.  Also, $45 is a bit steep for the set.  Shop around a bit if you really want it - I picked mine up for $18, shipping included, though I can't recall the shop at present.

Thanks to Dirk, Todd, and Orbital for their suggestions and ideas.  I'll won't be buying the set anytime soon, unless I find it for $20 or less.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sidoze on September 26, 2007, 02:33:05 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 26, 2007, 01:52:49 PM
The Ciani cycle has possibly the worst sounding recordings I've ever heard.

If one day during your strolls through the aisles of a secondhand CD shop you chance upon the Russian Disc of Sofronitsky playing Prokofiev, please, grab it without hesitation. It is far away the absolute worst sounding piano recording on the planet. I don't have the vocabulary to describe it. Then, after you've heard his 7th sonata, you can sell it for £50 and make a tidy profit :)

His Chopin Nocturnes are wonderful, among the most beautiful caught on record.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on October 10, 2007, 03:28:11 PM
Okay, I'm a little late to the party here, but I just wanted to praise Richard Goode's set of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, which I've been listening to for a couple of hours now. Not long, you might think - but I can't usually stomach these works for more than an hour at a time, so Goode must be doing something right to keep me listening.

What I particularly like is that Goode, unlike Fischer and Gulda (okay, so I dipped into my Christmas present while the wife is in hospital ;D), doesn't feel it necessary to bang so damned hard on the keys to create dynamic effects. Rather, he seems simply to lighten his touch at the other end of the scale, so that when keys do go down a little harder, you get the full dynamic range without the thundering pianism favoured by some. Goode's tempi choices agree with my tastes, too, so another point scored there.

I dare say the harder, faster approach adopted by other pianists might be somewhat truer to the spirit of Beethoven, but for me, it seems Goode may be enough.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2007, 04:30:48 PM
Has anyone here ever heard of Yukio Yokoyama?  I never even heard her name until I got that Sony Beethoven Big Box. Casadesus, Oppitz, Rosen, several other name pianists are on there. But the lion's share of the piano works (including the variations and bagatelles) are played by Yukio. I haven't listened to most of them yet, except the Op 2 #1 where she does a creditable job. Just curious if anyone has heard her rather more extensively and cares to give a report. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Hummel Op 105 Amusements (3) in the form of a Caprice for Fortepiano - Khouri, John - #2 - "a la Autrichienne"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on October 10, 2007, 07:03:34 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2007, 04:30:48 PM
Has anyone here ever heard of Yukio Yokoyama?  I never even heard her name until I got that Sony Beethoven Big Box. Casadesus, Oppitz, Rosen, several other name pianists are on there. But the lion's share of the piano works (including the variations and bagatelles) are played by Yukio. I haven't listened to most of them yet, except the Op 2 #1 where she does a creditable job. Just curious if anyone has heard her rather more extensively and cares to give a report. :)

Oh yes, I own his complete cycle. Rather restrained and understated as to expression I think, but also without idiosyncrasies. I think the early sonatas gain the most from his approach.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 10, 2007, 09:23:57 PM
Quote from: Mark on October 10, 2007, 03:28:11 PM
Okay, I'm a little late to the party here, but I just wanted to praise Richard Goode's set of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, which I've been listening to for a couple of hours now. Not long, you might think - but I can't usually stomach these works for more than an hour at a time, so Goode must be doing something right to keep me listening.

What I particularly like is that Goode, unlike Fischer and Gulda (okay, so I dipped into my Christmas present while the wife is in hospital ;D), doesn't feel it necessary to bang so damned hard on the keys to create dynamic effects. Rather, he seems simply to lighten his touch at the other end of the scale, so that when keys do go down a little harder, you get the full dynamic range without the thundering pianism favoured by some. Goode's tempi choices agree with my tastes, too, so another point scored there.

I dare say the harder, faster approach adopted by other pianists might be somewhat truer to the spirit of Beethoven, but for me, it seems Goode may be enough.

Great summary, Mark!

This is a set I greatly admire, as well. It's tops for me even in the face of stiff competition.




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: longears on October 10, 2007, 09:58:38 PM
Right up there for me, too.  One of my faves, with great sound.  For more poetry, I'll take Kempf; for more passion, I like Kovacevitch.  I could probably be quite satisfied with just these three--in fact, I rarely choose anyone else.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on October 10, 2007, 11:47:57 PM
Quote from: longears on October 10, 2007, 09:58:38 PM
Right up there for me, too.  One of my faves, with great sound.  For more poetry, I'll take Kempf; for more passion, I like Kovacevitch.  I could probably be quite satisfied with just these three--in fact, I rarely choose anyone else.

Schnabel? :)

(Though Kempff is by far my own favourite.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on October 11, 2007, 12:15:26 AM
Yukio Yokoyama also did a highly praised set of the Chopin Etudes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 11, 2007, 05:23:43 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2007, 04:30:48 PMHas anyone here ever heard of Yukio Yokoyama?


Yes.  His LvB sonatas vary in quality, and he tends to be better in the earlier sonatas.  As premont wrote, Yokoyama is understated at times, and at other times he seems at sea (Op 106), but he's never too quirky.  His set of LvB's concertos is better overall - his trills in the Emporer are amazing, for instance, and he tends to play with nice energy and taut tempi. 

Beyond LvB, his Liszt Transcendental Etudes are very good, and his Chopin Nocturnes, though a bit cool, are also quite enjoyable.  His take on Chopin's Ballades and Etudes are technically fine, but lack that last bit of involvement, and his Debussy and Ravel sound a bit a bit too assertive at times, though his transcription of Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun is worth hearing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: longears on October 11, 2007, 07:46:17 PM
And do you play, Todd?  How do you come by such critical expertise?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2007, 03:52:36 AM
Todd & premont,
Thanks very much for the input. Oh, premont, one could never have told from the liner notes that this was a person of the male persuasion, so I appreciate that info   :-[    The early sonatas are all I've listened to so far, and they were indeed not bad at all. But maybe that's why the "big names" are used for the later ones. The last 6 are by Rosen, recordings I've wanted to hear for a long time, and now have the chance. I'll post my impressions once I spin them a few times. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Haffner on October 12, 2007, 04:06:10 AM
I don't play piano, but I think Beethoven is a really cool guy!








laughing like crazy
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 12, 2007, 04:58:31 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2007, 03:52:36 AM
The last 6 are by Rosen, recordings I've wanted to hear for a long time, and now have the chance. I'll post my impressions once I spin them a few times. :)

8)

I'd appreciate that Gurn, I saw the Rosen late sonatas just the other day in my local used haunt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Haffner on October 12, 2007, 05:04:03 AM
A friend of mine (initials G.o.G.M.G.) gave me the "name" sonatas as a gift, with Kempff at the helm. I liked it so much I got this, which remains my favorite.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2007, 06:01:13 AM
Quote from: Haffner on October 12, 2007, 05:04:03 AM
A friend of mine (initials G.o.G.M.G.) gave me the "name" sonatas as a gift, with Kempff at the helm. ...

Andy, was that the DGOriginals disk? If so, it has been and remains my single favorite Beethoven sonatas disk. If I could only keep one...  :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Haffner on October 12, 2007, 06:04:22 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2007, 06:01:13 AM
Andy, was that the DGOriginals disk? If so, it has been and remains my single favorite Beethoven sonatas disk. If I could only keep one...  :)

8)




Terrific interpretations, a fine purchase for anyone interested, imho.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on October 12, 2007, 07:24:50 AM
Quote from: Haffner on October 12, 2007, 06:04:22 AM



Terrific interpretations, a fine purchase for anyone interested, imho.

Both his earlier and later cycle, I'll add. In fact, I have a slight preference for the earlier one, myself; but both are terrific, from a truly masterful pianist and interpreter. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on October 23, 2007, 09:54:04 AM
Quote from: Haffner on October 12, 2007, 05:04:03 AM
A friend of mine (initials G.o.G.M.G.) gave me the "name" sonatas as a gift, with Kempff at the helm. I liked it so much I got this, which remains my favorite.
That's the full set I got hold of on LP (1970 DGG LvB Edition) this summer. Very nice. Note the left hand boogie-woogie in the Moonlight finale!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on October 31, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
I probably listen to Beethoven Sonatas less often than most of other posters in this thread but been listening to this one lately and quite liking it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xz-%2BzVSmL._AA240_.jpg)

For me there are two highlights, first being first movement of Waldstein - it's pure and simple joy listening to pianist who can play at these speeds without slightest compromise of articulation or lost in beauty of tone for a single moment. The other and absolute highlight of the disc is arioso dolente of op.110, so achingly beautiful, sad but more melancholy than despair, with phrasing that sounds perfectly right, gets me wobbly in the knees everytime. Actually all of op.110 is stunning. First movement floats effortlessly, fast second with sharp dynamic contrasts, both fugues flawless, crescendo towards the end is mighty without becoming bangy  (his tone never hardens). This one has becoming quickly my preferred version within my modest collection.

Which brings me to the point, wanted to add couple more recordings of op.110 to ones I already have (Kempff, Solomon, Richter, Freire). Decided on Gieseking and Fischer but there is the question - which transfer for Fischer? APR has more appealing couplings than Pearl but I generally like Pearl transfers. Does anyone have both? Or how is APR sounding?

Fischer is Edwin.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 06:11:18 AM
I'm thinking about buying a complete set of these sonatas. I already have a cheap 10 CD set with Schnabel and some individual sonatas by other pianists.
Now i'm looking for a set with good better sound quality than Schnabel.

Which one should i check? Gulda?Barenboim?
There is a set with Gulda on eloquence records and another on brilliant. Any differences on those two?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: gmstudio on November 14, 2007, 06:33:55 AM
Quote from: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 06:11:18 AM
I'm thinking about buying a complete set of these sonatas. I already have a cheap 10 CD set with Schnabel and some individual sonatas by other pianists.
Now i'm looking for a set with good better sound quality than Schnabel.

Which one should i check? Gulda?Barenboim?
There is a set with Gulda on eloquence records and another on brilliant. Any differences on those two?

I bought this one about two years ago.  Couldn't beat the price ($34!) or quality...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MJNT2N5GL._AA240_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B0000037B3/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195054350&sr=8-29
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don on November 14, 2007, 08:08:16 AM
Quote from: gmstudio on November 14, 2007, 06:33:55 AM
I bought this one about two years ago.  Couldn't beat the price ($34!) or quality...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MJNT2N5GL._AA240_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B0000037B3/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195054350&sr=8-29

I'd recommend a little caution about the Roberts set.  Although it was the first Beethoven set I ever acquired and have very warm feelings about it, he's a little restrained and polite.  In his live recordings, he's much more visceral.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 08:20:38 AM
Quote from: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 06:11:18 AM
I'm thinking about buying a complete set of these sonatas. I already have a cheap 10 CD set with Schnabel and some individual sonatas by other pianists.
Now i'm looking for a set with good better sound quality than Schnabel.

Which one should i check? Gulda?Barenboim?
There is a set with Gulda on eloquence records and another on brilliant. Any differences on those two?

The Eloquence has the concertos as well. As for your other questions:

Do you want fast and technically proficient in good sound? Then Gulda's your man.

Do you want Romantic and beautiful played and sound with many fast movements that are played slower than usual? Barenboim (DG) is your man.

Do you want incredible power, depth in the slow movements and good sound? Annie Fischer's your woman. (Expensive though absolutely worth it)

Do you want great sound, great depth in the slow movements with great consistency throughout? Can you tolerate missing a few sonatas and some slowish fast movements? Then Gilels is your man.

Do you want a solid cycle by a man who lived and breathed with these works, recording the set twice? Then Backhaus (stereo) is your man.

FWIW, I think that Gulda probably provides the best contrast to Schnabel. The price is right and the sound is good. 

Also, FWIW, The Bernard Roberts set as a whole is not very good. Some of the performances are excellent, but not enough to warrant getting the cycle.

The four sets that I would recommend for performance, consistency and sound quality are Annie Fischer, Gulda (Brilliant/Amadeo/Eloquence), Gilels and Backhaus (stereo), in that order.  :)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 08:22:10 AM
George, you break my heart. What about Richard Goode? :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 08:23:15 AM
Quote from: Mark on November 14, 2007, 08:22:10 AM
George, you break my heart. What about Richard Goode? :'(

I haven't worked though the set, but I can already say he doesn't beat Annie or Gulda.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 08:23:47 AM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 08:23:15 AM
I haven't worked though the set, but I can already say he doesn't beat Annie or Gulda.

IYO. 0:) ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 08:25:04 AM
Quote from: Mark on November 14, 2007, 08:23:47 AM
IYO. 0:) ;)

IYO?  ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 08:28:51 AM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 08:25:04 AM
IYO?  ???

In your opinion. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 08:30:38 AM
Quote from: Mark on November 14, 2007, 08:28:51 AM
In your opinion. ;D

Well the OP didn't ask me for your opinion.  :P


;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 08:31:11 AM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 08:30:38 AM
Well the OP didn't ask me for your opinion.  :P


;)

Touche, my friend. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: locrian on November 14, 2007, 08:53:13 AM
I thought the '50s Kempff was the box to get.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 08:54:28 AM
Quote from: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 06:11:18 AM
I'm thinking about buying a complete set of these sonatas. I already have a cheap 10 CD set with Schnabel and some individual sonatas by other pianists.
Now i'm looking for a set with good better sound quality than Schnabel.

Which one should i check? Gulda?Barenboim?


I have heard the Barenboim and it's absolutely fine - straight down the middle, you could do worse. I have heard most of Ashkenazy's and he is my favourite - but then he can do no wrong for me. The only full set I have is the Brendel - and that's also very good. Another favourite is Kempff. If you don't have to have a set, and I admit that's a nice cost effective way of obtaining them all, you could try Pollini.

I also have some of the "remastered" Schnabel discs. I had heard the box set was hiss heaven so plumped for the individual ones. They ARE hiss heaven so god knows how bad the box set must be = what are your thoughts on the sound quality of it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on November 14, 2007, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 08:54:28 AM
I also have some of the "remastered" Schnabel discs. I had heard the box set was hiss heaven so plumped for the individual ones. They ARE hiss heaven so god knows how bad the box set must be = what are your thoughts on the sound quality of it?

You will have to name the labels - individual ones on Naxos, box on EMI? :)

A previous thread on the matter: Schnabel's Beethoven Getaway (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8895.0.html) (old forum).

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don on November 14, 2007, 09:01:07 AM
My top recommendations are Gilels, Sherman, Gulda and Brendel.  I also love the late sonatas set from Pollini.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 09:39:47 AM
Quote from: Que on November 14, 2007, 08:59:21 AM
You will have to name the labels - individual ones on Naxos, box on EMI? :)

A previous thread on the matter: Schnabel's Beethoven Getaway (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8895.0.html) (old forum).

Q

The individual "re-masters" are in this series
http://www.musicalpointers.co.uk/reviews/cddvd/Schnabel22-29.htm
(see the bottom of the page for an explanation regarding the preparation of the discs)

This is the box set
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000002S29/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195065504&sr=1-1
I read somewhere (not sure where) that this was very bad for hiss, hence the reason I went for the "re-masters"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on November 14, 2007, 09:44:54 AM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 08:20:38 AM
The Eloquence has the concertos as well. As for your other questions:

Do you want fast and technically proficient in good sound? Then Gulda's your man.

Do you want Romantic and beautiful played and sound with many fast movements that are played slower than usual? Barenboim (DG) is your man.

Do you want incredible power, depth in the slow movements and good sound? Annie Fischer's your woman. (Expensive though absolutely worth it)

Do you want great sound, great depth in the slow movements with great consistency throughout? Can you tolerate missing a few sonatas and some slowish fast movements? Then Gilels is your man.

Do you want a solid cycle by a man who lived and breathed with these works, recording the set twice? Then Backhaus (stereo) is your man.

FWIW, I think that Gulda probably provides the best contrast to Schnabel. The price is right and the sound is good. 

Also, FWIW, The Bernard Roberts set as a whole is not very good. Some of the performances are excellent, but not enough to warrant getting the cycle.

The four sets that I would recommend for performance, consistency and sound quality are Annie Fischer, Gulda (Brilliant/Amadeo/Eloquence), Gilels and Backhaus (stereo), in that order.  :)



  I would just like to say that last March I took George's advice and bought the Gulda set and as far as the Beethoven sonatas are concerned I have been happy ever since  :).  thanks George

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 14, 2007, 09:52:53 AM
The real expert on this question is Todd. I asked him and he recommended the almost brand-new set of Mr Andrea Lucchesini - recorded live just a few years ago - on the Italian label Stradivarius. I could not be happier. Lucchesini has (as Todd promised) a uniquely beautiful piano tone, a gentle lyricism that you will either love or hate, depending on how you like your Beethoven. (He's not for all tastes, probably.) He is not, however, afraid to put in the full force when necessary. And the sound is marvelous. And the price is dirt cheap - you might be able to find it for around $45.

I also listen regularly to Jeno Jando's recordings, and love them. His No. 32 is growing on me rather rapidly.

Todd's review of Lucchesini (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4089.0.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 09:59:58 AM
Doesn't Todd also have some great things to say about Robert Silverman's set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 10:52:53 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 14, 2007, 09:44:54 AM
  I would just like to say that last March I took George's advice and bought the Gulda set and as far as the Beethoven sonatas are concerned I have been happy ever since  :).  thanks George

  marvin

My pleasure.

:)

Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 09:39:47 AM
The individual "re-masters" are in this series
http://www.musicalpointers.co.uk/reviews/cddvd/Schnabel22-29.htm
(see the bottom of the page for an explanation regarding the preparation of the discs)

This is the box set
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000002S29/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195065504&sr=1-1
I read somewhere (not sure where) that this was very bad for hiss, hence the reason I went for the "re-masters"

The EMI filters out the hiss, the high frequencies and if low noise is your only requirement, you'd be very happy with them. Naxos strikes a nice balance between filtering and SQ, IMO. Pearl's hiss level is incredibly high, but you really hear Schnabel's tone in all its glory. If you don't like the Naxos (because of the noise), don't mess with the Pearl. However, try to keep in mind that these performances were recorded over seventy years ago. Considering that, the quality of these recordings is incredible. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 14, 2007, 10:57:14 AM
I have complete sets by Barenboim (EMI), Schnabel and Annie Fischer. Of the three the Fischer is the one that I like the best. There is not really a 'dud' sonata amongst them (unlike the other two) and while they took a while to grow on me I"m glad I perservered.

That said, the Barenboim is a fine set and an inexpensive way to start on the '32'.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 10:52:53 AM
My pleasure.

:)

The EMI filters out the hiss, the high frequencies and if low noise is your only requirement, you'd be very happy with them. Naxos strikes a nice balance between filtering and SQ, IMO. Pearl's hiss level is incredibly high, but you really hear Schnabel's tone in all its glory. If you don't like the Naxos (because of the noise), don't mess with the Pearl. However, try to keep in mind that these performances were recorded over seventy years ago. Considering that, the quality of these recordings is incredible. 

I agree - the quality, sans hiss, is good. The trouble is, depending on my mood, sometime I can mentally filter out the hiss and other times it's all I can hear. It is the most prominent of all historic recordings I own. I can usually put up with all foibles due to age.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 11:11:25 AM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 10:58:44 AM
I agree - the quality, sans hiss, is good. The trouble is, depending on my mood, sometime I can mentally filter out the hiss and other times it's all I can hear. It is the most prominent of all historic recordings I own. I can usually put up with all foibles due to age.

Yes, I totally agree, there are days when I only hear the performance and other days when I only hear the noise.  :)

In fact, I have both the Naxos and the Pearl sets because to me, the Naxos is fine anytime, while the Pearl I have to be in the right frame of mind (or ears?).  ;D

I recommend not listening to historical stuff on headphones though.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on November 14, 2007, 11:12:53 AM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 08:20:38 AMThe four sets that I would recommend for performance, consistency and sound quality are Annie Fischer, Gulda (Brilliant/Amadeo/Eloquence), Gilels and Backhaus (stereo), in that order.  :)

While I might rearrange the order slightly, these are all very good options. In the "almost/not quite complete" category (with Gilels), I would add Solomon. And in the "nowhere near complete" category (more's the pity), Richter.

But of course, YMMV.

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: dirkronk on November 14, 2007, 11:12:53 AM
While I might rearrange the order slightly, these are all very good options. In the "almost/not quite complete" category (with Gilels), I would add Solomon. And in the "nowhere near complete" category (more's the pity), Richter.

But of course, YMMV.

Dirk

Yes and Serkin as well, but their unfortunately their performances are spread out over 20 CDs.  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 11:15:40 AM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 11:11:25 AM


I recommend not listening to historical stuff on headphones though.  :-\

Quite
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sean on November 14, 2007, 11:33:48 AM
The Schnabel set is as extraordinary as often claimed, very subtley structured and touching in details as in ideal imagination.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 11:34:57 AM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 08:54:28 AM
I also have some of the "remastered" Schnabel discs. I had heard the box set was hiss heaven so plumped for the individual ones. They ARE hiss heaven so god knows how bad the box set must be = what are your thoughts on the sound quality of it?

There are many Schnabel sets... i have this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sonatas-Germany-Artur-Schnabel/dp/B000AAVCYS

It's from a company called "Membran music". I haven't heard the other sets from EMI or Pearl so i can't compare, but on membran the hiss is quite prominent. Not bad for a 30's recording though.



Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 08:20:38 AM
The Eloquence has the concertos as well. As for your other questions:

Do you want fast and technically proficient in good sound? Then Gulda's your man.

Do you want Romantic and beautiful played and sound with many fast movements that are played slower than usual? Barenboim (DG) is your man.

Do you want incredible power, depth in the slow movements and good sound? Annie Fischer's your woman. (Expensive though absolutely worth it)

Do you want great sound, great depth in the slow movements with great consistency throughout? Can you tolerate missing a few sonatas and some slowish fast movements? Then Gilels is your man.

Do you want a solid cycle by a man who lived and breathed with these works, recording the set twice? Then Backhaus (stereo) is your man.

FWIW, I think that Gulda probably provides the best contrast to Schnabel. The price is right and the sound is good. 

Also, FWIW, The Bernard Roberts set as a whole is not very good. Some of the performances are excellent, but not enough to warrant getting the cycle.

The four sets that I would recommend for performance, consistency and sound quality are Annie Fischer, Gulda (Brilliant/Amadeo/Eloquence), Gilels and Backhaus (stereo), in that order.  :)



Judging by those standards, Gulda would be closer to my liking.

On the Eloquence label the recording is remastered... are there any improvements on the sound quality?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don on November 14, 2007, 12:25:42 PM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 11:11:25 AM

I recommend not listening to historical stuff on headphones though.  :-\

That can be problematic, but I do listen often to historical keyboard recordings on my headphones.  Takes some adjusting, but I get used to it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 12:46:03 PM
How do folks think Barenboim's DG set stacks up against his EMI outing? I have the former, and while there's much I like about it, I can't seem to fall in love with it. :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 12:46:42 PM
Quote from: Don on November 14, 2007, 12:25:42 PM
That can be problematic, but I do listen often to historical keyboard recordings on my headphones.  Takes some adjusting, but I get used to it.

That would be unbearable if you had tinnitus as well - hiss in quad
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 12:46:42 PM
That would be unbearable if you had tinnitus as well - hiss in quad

Don't joke: I suffer with mild tinnitus in my right ear. Gets louder when I'm tired or stressed, but as it's very high-pitched, it generally doesn't interfere with my musical enjoyment. I only discovered I had it this year - was quite distressing at the time, but I'm used to tuning it out now. And headphones (to come to my point) were probably to blame: I've always done 95% of my listening through cans. Usually (and stupidly) too loud. :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: Mark on November 14, 2007, 12:49:19 PM
Don't joke: I suffer with mild tinnitus in my right ear. Gets louder when I'm tired or stressed, but as it's very high-pitched, it generally doesn't interfere with my musical enjoyment. I only discovered I had it this year - was quite distressing at the time, but I'm used to tuning it out now. And headphones (to come to my point) were probably to blame: I've always done 95% of my listening through cans. Usually (and stupidly) too loud. :-\

I started with it last year - mine manifests itself as a pulse which gets louder under certain circumstances, just in one ear also. I meet another chap whilst out walking my hound and his drives him nuts. He is even in a group for sufferers.
I have stopped listening with phones due to worries about the long term health of my hearing. Deafness would not be the best ailment for a music lover, obviously.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 12:56:14 PM
Deafness would not be the best ailment for a music lover, obviously.

Quite. Though I'm addicted to headhone use - it's when I connect most to the music. I guess it's my funeral if I lose the sense I love so much. Mind you, they can now repair certain types of hearing loss which was once considered terminal, so things aren't all bad. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 01:03:01 PM
Quote from: Mark on November 14, 2007, 01:00:14 PM
Quite. Though I'm addicted to headhone use - it's when I connect most to the music. I guess it's my funeral if I lose the sense I love so much. Mind you, they can now repair certain types of hearing loss which was once considered terminal, so things aren't all bad. :)

I ceased to use my phones when I got to a certain stage with my main Hi-Fi. It sounds so wonderful now that I won't use phones. The expansive soundstage, both in width and depth is a real joy. (Sorry - not meaning to rub it in)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 14, 2007, 01:08:51 PM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 01:03:01 PM
(Sorry - not meaning to rub it in)

;D

I'll always use cans, as I can never truly decide what I think of a CD until I've listened to it through headphones at least twice.

Anyway, we're OT. My apologies. :-[
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2007, 01:23:41 PM
This is a big question, and of course one's personal preferences as to style will have a big impact on what one likes.  I tend to prefer a more intense, faster, leaner approach, though other styles work well.  Hence Kempff, Lucchesini, and Sherman on my favorites list.

My top four are pretty much set at this point – Annie Fischer, Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo), Wilhelm Kempff (mono), and Wilhelm Backhaus (mono).  All are indispensable, and no one else matches up to them for me.

But of course, there are many other fine sets.  Close behind are Robert Silverman, Russell Sherman, Artur Schnabel, Eric Heidsieck, Emil Gilels, Claude Frank, Seymour Lipkin, Andrea Lucchesini, and Barenboim's DVD cycle, all for different reasons. 

(Another winner is Akiyoshi Sako's cycle on Camerata, which I've just about completed.  About "normal" in terms of tempi, Sako plays with a broad dynamic range, and shows a muscular (but not too much so) style, with excitement where it's needed and coolness where appropriate.)

If one must work within a tight budget, I'd say Gulda (Amadeo), Heidsieck, Frank, or Lucchesini are all good places to start.  If one wants a more "popular" (or historically lauded, anyway) approach, then Kempff and Schnabel are hard to beat.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 01:29:52 PM
Quote from: Don on November 14, 2007, 12:25:42 PM
That can be problematic, but I do listen often to historical keyboard recordings on my headphones.  Takes some adjusting, but I get used to it.

Me, I can handle the noise but I get headaches after awhile.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 14, 2007, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 14, 2007, 01:23:41 PMIf one must work within a tight budget, I'd say Gulda (Amadeo), Heidsieck, Frank, or Lucchesini are all good places to start.  If one wants a more "popular" (or historically lauded, anyway) approach, then Kempff and Schnabel are hard to beat.
Though I remain very happy with the Lucchesini box (as mentioned previously) and have supplemented it with a couple superb performances by Jando, that Gulda is incredibly tempting. And at $35 ... it may be in this shopper's future.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 14, 2007, 01:43:17 PM
Quote from: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 11:34:57 AM
Judging by those standards, Gulda would be closer to my liking.

On the Eloquence label the recording is remastered... are there any improvements on the sound quality?

I think I read somewhere that the Eloquence remastering and the Brilliant remastering are one in the same.

You can read a review here:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9625
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2007, 01:43:58 PM
Quote from: brianrein on November 14, 2007, 01:34:27 PMAnd at $35 ... it may be in this shopper's future.


I paid around $90 for my set (the Australian packaging with the concertos included), and even then I think it's a tremendous bargain.  It close to the holidays, so treat yourself.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 14, 2007, 02:17:18 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 14, 2007, 01:43:58 PM

I paid around $90 for my set (the Australian packaging with the concertos included), and even then I think it's a tremendous bargain.  It close to the holidays, so treat yourself.
I just discovered I have free access to the Annie Fischer set through my university (Naxos Music Library). Perhaps that treat for myself will come at no price tag whatsoever.  8)

EDIT: Come to think of it, Naxos Music Library is a good investment for the sonata-seeker. You get to stream (though not download, unless you record them using freeware like Audacity) the complete cycles of Fischer, Ohlsson, Oppitz, Jando, Brendel (Vox), Kuerti, Houstoun,  and, if you live outside of the USA, Schnabel. You also get the ongoing cycles of Brautigam (fortepiano) and Korstick. Granted, after one or two listens you'll only want to return to a few of these cycles (Fischer, Jando, Brendel, Schnabel, Brautigam, perhaps Ohlsson), but for sheer quantity it's hard to beat!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 14, 2007, 05:47:02 PM
Goode rates tops for me. Supple, finely shaded, with more nuance - bar for bar - than anybody. Though not lacking in heft by any stretch.

Next is Gilels. Wrought with chiseled beauty.

I'd also rate Richter. Though tantalizingly incomplete.

Both Annie Fischer and Kempff (mono) have interesting insights but I've yet to be 100% won over by either of them. Annie's touch lacks a certain grace I look for in Beethoven while Kempff has a sort of 'airy' quality that has me wishing he'd just crank it!! sometimes. Let his hair down, or something...



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 14, 2007, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: brianrein on November 14, 2007, 02:17:18 PM
I just discovered I have free access to the Annie Fischer set through my university (Naxos Music Library). Perhaps that treat for myself will come at no price tag whatsoever.  8)

EDIT: Come to think of it, Naxos Music Library is a good investment for the sonata-seeker. You get to stream (though not download, unless you record them using freeware like Audacity) the complete cycles of Fischer, Ohlsson, Oppitz, Jando, Brendel (Vox), Kuerti, Houstoun


Are we talking Michael Houston here? His LvB cycle is very good indeed but I can't imagine how you would be able to hear it via Naxos Music Library. If, however, this is the case, then how do I sign up?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 14, 2007, 11:44:46 PM
I've seen a few Anton Kuerti sets on LP lately (forget the label). Are these worth having? Are they out on CD?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 11:48:39 PM
Quote from: George on November 14, 2007, 01:43:17 PM
I think I read somewhere that the Eloquence remastering and the Brilliant remastering are one in the same.

You can read a review here:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9625

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=81236

Here it says that the mastering is different. Eloquence always uses a technology called AMSI (Ambient Surround Imaging technology).
I have some CD's from eloquence, i'll give them another spin to see what this AMSI is all about.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on November 15, 2007, 12:01:04 AM
Quote from: donwyn on November 14, 2007, 05:47:02 PM
Goode rates tops for me. Supple, finely shaded, with more nuance - bar for bar - than anybody. Though not lacking in heft by any stretch.

Amen. 0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: val on November 15, 2007, 01:04:07 AM
My choice would be Gulda (BRILLIANT CLASSICS). Only one weak point: the Sonata opus 53.

But there are some other extraordinary versions:

Arrau (PHILIPS), sometimes heavy and artificial, but with extraordinary moments: the opus 2/2, 10/1, 22, 53 and 101.

Schnabel (NAXOS), violent, full of energy and enthusiasm, but also extraordinary in the slow movements (the Largo e mesto of the opus 10/3 is a model that no one ever reached).

Backhaus (DECCA), severe, with a remarkable architecture of the works. He is always more concerned with the global movement that with the details. Some of his great moments are the opus 26, 28, 31/2, 57, 79, and a sublime opus 110.

Kempff (DG, 1951), a splendid sound, very poetic. In certain works, however, I wish he had more greatness (opus 53, 57, 106). The versions of the opus 2/3, 27/1 and 2, 28, 78 and 90 are very beautiful.

The first version of Brendel (VOX) very simple and natural, almost fragile sometimes, is also very interesting (in any case, more than his later versions to PHILIPS).

Regarding more recent versions, I heard some interpretations of Richard Goode. He seems too pale and absent in some moments but the slow movements in general are good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don on November 15, 2007, 01:57:01 AM
Quote from: Holden on November 14, 2007, 11:07:42 PM
Are we talking Michael Houston here? His LvB cycle is very good indeed but I can't imagine how you would be able to hear it via Naxos Music Library. If, however, this is the case, then how do I sign up?

Houstoun's cycle is on the Morrison Music Trust label, and this label is part of the Naxos Music Library. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 15, 2007, 04:53:58 AM
Quote from: Don on November 15, 2007, 01:57:01 AM
Houstoun's cycle is on the Morrison Music Trust label, and this label is part of the Naxos Music Library. 
Seconded, and thank you Holden for the recommendation. Having discovered the riches available on NML I am ready to go sonata-crazy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 15, 2007, 05:54:47 AM
Quote from: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 11:48:39 PM
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=81236

Here it says that the mastering is different. Eloquence always uses a technology called AMSI (Ambient Surround Imaging technology).
I have some CD's from eloquence, i'll give them another spin to see what this AMSI is all about.

I have the Eloquence and Decca versions of 4 of Backhaus stereo LvB sonatas and remember comparing them side by side. What I remember from what came out of that is that the Eloquence sounded more "produced," while the Decca sounded more natural.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on November 16, 2007, 03:35:55 AM
Quote from: brianrein on November 14, 2007, 09:52:53 AM
The real expert on this question is Todd. I asked him and he recommended the almost brand-new set of Mr Andrea Lucchesini - recorded live just a few years ago - on the Italian label Stradivarius. I could not be happier. Lucchesini has (as Todd promised) a uniquely beautiful piano tone, a gentle lyricism that you will either love or hate, depending on how you like your Beethoven. (He's not for all tastes, probably.) He is not, however, afraid to put in the full force when necessary. And the sound is marvelous. And the price is dirt cheap - you might be able to find it for around $45.

I also listen regularly to Jeno Jando's recordings, and love them. His No. 32 is growing on me rather rapidly.

Todd's review of Lucchesini (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4089.0.html)

I got the Lucchesini thanks to Todd's opinion of it as well - I was looking for a modern SQ recording to suppliment my others, and this has been perfect.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on December 17, 2007, 10:18:23 AM
Over the weekend I had some time to kill (in-laws in the house  ;D ), so I ripped some fairly modern Beethoven sonata sets (Goode, Kovacevich, Brendel III, Barenboim DG) for my iPod, there to reside with Kempff, Gilels, & the usual suspects.  Which prompted me to ask:

What is your favorite sonata set recorded in the last 20 years, and why? 

If you have listened to many sets (Hi Todd & George!), do you think that the level of Beethoven interpretation, on average, has improved over time?  Gotten worse?  Are there any trends? Ie, are most of your personal top 10 by pianists who have long since shuffled off the mortal coil?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 17, 2007, 10:35:00 AM
Quote from: jwinter on December 17, 2007, 10:18:23 AMWhat is your favorite sonata set recorded in the last 20 years, and why? 

If you have listened to many sets (Hi Todd & George!), do you think that the level of Beethoven interpretation, on average, has improved over time?




From the last 20 years, only Russell Sherman and Robert Silverman currently crack my Top 10 (though it's not carved in stone).  For reasons, you can read my write-ups of those two cycles.  Andrea Lucchesini almost makes the cut, too, and Seymour Lipkin isn't far behind.  Michaël Levinas's cycle is turning out to be an excellent one, but I still have to sample some late sonatas to be able to rate him, and Akiyoshi Sako's playing sounds better with each successive hearing.  And even Barenboim's newest cycle has some formidable strengths.

As to whether the playing has gotten any better, and so on, I'd have to say: Not really.  But it hasn't really gotten any worse, either.  The old Legends deserve their reputations, but some newer/younger pianists have better techniques and are less prone to individual excesses (Sherman aside!), and some can really plumb the depths.  One heartening thing, at least for me, is that the best of newer/younger pianists make the music sound fresh and vital, which is really what counts. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 17, 2007, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: jwinter on December 17, 2007, 10:18:23 AM
Over the weekend I had some time to kill (in-laws in the house  ;D ), so I ripped some fairly modern Beethoven sonata sets (Goode, Kovacevich, Brendel III, Barenboim DG) for my iPod, there to reside with Kempff, Gilels, & the usual suspects.  Which prompted me to ask:

What is your favorite sonata set recorded in the last 20 years, and why? 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (pun not intended), I will paste the review I posted on amazon.com:
_____________________________________________

I happen to know for a fact that there are a number of you out there who are finding it hard to decide to pay the asking price for this set. Therefore, I shall try to explain why you should do so, immediately.

First of all, I will say that I own complete cyles by Gulda, Fischer, Schnabel, Kempff (mono), Kovacevich and Backhaus (stereo). Of these, Annie's is my favorite complete set. Easily. I also own single/double discs by Serkin, Richter, Moravec, Horowitz, Gilels, Goode, O'Conor, Pollini, Kempff (stereo), Arrau, Brendel, Jando and Rubinstein. Annie also trumps many of these as well.

Secondly, I must say that Annie's cycle is remarkably consistent, I think she does excellent or superb on 25 of the 32. In the others, she is fair or good. In my experience, this is no small feat, in fact only Gulda equals her in consistency, though not in quality. Gulda tends to rush through these works, a which doesn't always come off well and even when it does, he still lack's Fischer's depth. Schnabel's legendary set, now available on Naxos from European sellers with excellent transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn, is of course very consistent and superbly played. However, many will likely pass on this set due to the historical sound. Kempff plays these works on a smaller scale that doesn't always work for me, though few can match his tone and beauty. Backhaus's more masculine approach is more to my liking, though his fast slow movements, like Gulda, lack depth. Kovacevich's set is more agressive than even Annie's, who is surprisingly agressive when needed and deeply touching and sensitive when appropriate. She handles all three of the main periods of Lvb's works with equal achievement, an incredible feat.

Third, the quality of her playing simply has to be heard to be believed. The opening to her Appassionata sonata dispels all worries that you might have that she isn't up the job. You can listen here at Amazon on the page that hold the single disc from this set. It sounds like thunder from the heavens, as does the finale here and in the Moonlight Sonata. She finds young energy in the early works and confident strength and power in the heroic middle sonatas. Her Op. 31 is easily my favorite, combining a great sense of rythm, drama and beauty. Her Late Sonatas are incrdibly profound and gorgeous. Without resorting to some of the more extreme tempo choices others have made, she finds a style all her own that works magnificently. In fact, her tempo choices are almost always just right, never rushing, nor letting the tempo sag.

Fourth, when compared to her closest rivals, Schnabel, Gulda, and Kempff, her set has superior sound. She plays a gorgeously dark sounding Bosendorfer that was recorded remarkably well. Her recordings were made in the 70's and 80's and the close miking arccurately conveys her sweet tone and powerful fortes. Sure, Goode and Kovacevich may have better sound, but IMO they don't play at her level. Goode's interpretations lack excitement at times, while Kovacevich seems to focus a bit too much on excitement.

Fifth, you will notice that the price changes from time to time by some of the marketplace sellers, buying it now saves you from paying more for it later. More importantly, there may not even be a later, for this set is hard to find as it is. This can certainly suggest that it may not stay in print. With talent like this, why gamble? This is mostly a matter of taste of course, I suggest that you listen to the samples here and compare for yourself. I really don't think that you'll be sorry if you choose Annie, though! 

______________________________________________________

Quote
If you have listened to many sets (Hi Todd & George!), do you think that the level of Beethoven interpretation, on average, has improved over time?  Gotten worse?  Are there any trends? Ie, are most of your personal top 10 by pianists who have long since shuffled off the mortal coil?

Hey jwinter!  :) To answer this question, I need to check a few things when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning. I'll post more then.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 17, 2007, 03:04:03 PM
Annie Fischer's cycle was recorded mostly in the 70s with some touch up work thereafter.  I thought jwinter was basically asking about digital sets, not older analog sets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mark on December 17, 2007, 03:36:01 PM
Wasn't the Annie set never intended for release? And is it true that it's made up from multiple edits recorded across a large number of sessions?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 17, 2007, 03:37:39 PM
Quote from: jwinter on December 17, 2007, 10:18:23 AM
If you have listened to many sets (Hi Todd & George!), do you think that the level of Beethoven interpretation, on average, has improved over time?  Gotten worse?  Are there any trends? Ie, are most of your personal top 10 by pianists who have long since shuffled off the mortal coil?

My personal top 10:

Annie Fischer
Rudolf Serkin
Sviatoslav Richter
Emil Gilels
Friedrich Gulda
Wilhelm Backhaus
Artur Schnabel
Wilhelm Kempff
Maria Yudina
Bruce Hungerford

Other than Annie, none of these (I am not sure about Hungerford) were either alive or at their peak in the last 20 years. So no, things haven't improved IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 17, 2007, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: George on December 17, 2007, 03:26:38 PMThat's not true


I'm well aware of what the liner notes say – I've had the cycle far longer than you have, and I've done some investigation of the cycle.  Every sonata displays analog hiss more or less throughout (if you can identify the ones that don't, let me know which ones they are), and Hungaroton moved to all digital in the early 80s.  This very clearly demonstrates that very little of the cycle was recorded in the last 15-20 years.  Beyond that, other sources have more or less stated the same thing I did – that most of the recordings were made in the 70s, with touch-ups and some minor retakes being made thereafter.  Her other playing from the 80s does not display the same technical command as in the studio cycle, and some of those are live-in-studio recordings, indicating that she could have and most likely did use multiple takes even then.  I suppose you can include her Hungaroton cycle in those from the last 20 years, but I find that lazy and disingenuous.  It is one of the greatest of cycles, but it's not a modern cycle.




Quote from: George on December 17, 2007, 03:40:07 PMNo, they were, but Annie was "reluctant" about releasing them.


That is partially true, or partially incorrect, depending on how one looks at it.  Fischer apparently "approved" certain takes on the sonatas, or so the liner notes say, but the recordings were never released during her lifetime.  One can attribute that to "reluctance," I suppose, but given that she approved other recordings at other times, I'm not completely sold on the official story in the liner notes.  It appears to be another case of a label capitalizing on an artist against the artist's wish, though I'm glad they did.  (Revised)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 17, 2007, 04:56:34 PM
Quote from: George on December 17, 2007, 04:47:45 PMThanks for your observations, but I'm going with what the liner notes say on this one. Maybe someday I'll find out from her 3rd cousin that they were recorded in 1963?


If you want to be lazy and disingenuous, believe liner notes so wholeheartedly, and don't want to actually back up your de facto assertion that some of the recordings are modern (ie, digital), fine.  But claiming a cycle that started in the 70s is modern is ridiculous.  And note that I didn't write about the sound being limited – though it is a bit harsh at times – just that it is clearly analog.  There's quite a bit of difference there.



Quote from: George on December 17, 2007, 04:47:45 PMDo people go into studios and record entire sets of sonatas for other reasons than for them to be released?


Alfred Cortot apparently did.  Michelangeli and Pollini have left recordings unreleased in DG's vaults.  Other artists have made other recordings that never got released.  It has happened quite a bit.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 18, 2007, 08:42:44 PM
Quote from: Drasko on October 31, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
I probably listen to Beethoven Sonatas less often than most of other posters in this thread but been listening to this one lately and quite liking it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xz-%2BzVSmL._AA240_.jpg)

For me there are two highlights, first being first movement of Waldstein - it's pure and simple joy listening to pianist who can play at these speeds without slightest compromise of articulation or lost in beauty of tone for a single moment. The other and absolute highlight of the disc is arioso dolente of op.110, so achingly beautiful, sad but more melancholy than despair, with phrasing that sounds perfectly right, gets me wobbly in the knees everytime. Actually all of op.110 is stunning. First movement floats effortlessly, fast second with sharp dynamic contrasts, both fugues flawless, crescendo towards the end is mighty without becoming bangy  (his tone never hardens). This one has becoming quickly my preferred version within my modest collection.

Which brings me to the point, wanted to add couple more recordings of op.110 to ones I already have (Kempff, Solomon, Richter, Freire). Decided on Gieseking and Fischer but there is the question - which transfer for Fischer? APR has more appealing couplings than Pearl but I generally like Pearl transfers. Does anyone have both? Or how is APR sounding?

Fischer is Edwin.

Check PM.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don Isler on December 18, 2007, 09:34:32 PM
The 22 sonatas done by Hungerford were recorded between 1968 and 1976. He died in 1977 without completing the rest of the cycle. No one I know of ever heard him play the Hammerklavier (some of the sonatas he never performed before recording them, others he'd played many times) but visitors to his studio on the afternoon after which he was killed in an auto accident found the score of Op. 106 open on the piano.

Op. 110 was a speciality of his, and his tempo for the first movement of the Waldstein was breathtaking, faster, as an interviewer once pointed out to him, than Horowitz.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 18, 2007, 10:28:03 PM
Quote from: Don Isler on December 18, 2007, 09:34:32 PM
The 22 sonatas done by Hungerford were recorded between 1968 and 1976. He died in 1977 without completing the rest of the cycle. No one I know of ever heard him play the Hammerklavier (some of the sonatas he never performed before recording them, others he'd played many times) but visitors to his studio on the afternoon after which he was killed in an auto accident found the score of Op. 106 open on the piano.

Op. 110 was a speciality of his, and his tempo for the first movement of the Waldstein was breathtaking, faster, as an interviewer once pointed out to him, than Horowitz.

Don - did he ever have the Appassionata in his repertoire?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on December 19, 2007, 05:58:39 AM
*pokes head out of foxhole*

"That Annie Fischer is OK, but she's no Lang Lang."

*pokes head back into foxhole, and reaches for K-Ration popcorn*


;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 19, 2007, 06:06:43 AM
Quote from: jwinter on December 19, 2007, 05:58:39 AM
"That Annie Fischer is OK, but she's no Lang Lang."

;D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don Isler on December 19, 2007, 07:11:41 AM
No Ric, he didn't.

The sonatas Hungerford didn't live to record, and, I'm pretty sure, never performed are:

Op. 2, No.3
Op. 22
Op. 28
Op. 31, No. 1
Op. 54
Op. 57
Op. 81a
Op. 90.
Op. 101
Op. 106

Unlike Claude Frank and Daniel Barenboim, who recorded their 32 sonata cycles within a fairly short time for the Beethoven Bi-Centennial year (1970) (there is an interesting article in a 1969 edition of High Fidelity Magazine about these three pianists' cycles) the Hungerford cycle, even in its uncompleted form, was spread out over eight years. Something that didn't speed up the process was that he sometimes did what everyone else (at the recording sessions) considered perfectly fine takes of everything, then rejected his own concept, and insisted on doing another round of sessions, which, in the end, produced even better results!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bassio on December 20, 2007, 10:12:33 AM
Hey guys, I am new here. How are you doing? I am an amateur pianist. You may find some info about me in the Introduction forum.

I noticed the marathonic survey by George and everyone. And I would like to share, but I will have to relisten to give you my judgement.

But the ones I remember where my preferences:

Op.2 No.1 - Arrau
Op.2 No.3 - Richter (Prague)
Op.10 No.3 - Kempff (mono) - definitive
Pathetique - Brendel (70s maybe not sure) - Horowitz
Moonlight - Difficult to say - but I remember Arrau did quiet a fine job
Appassionata - Brendel
Op.111 - Arrau (definitive)

Serkin is a great contender too - I only listened to 3 sonatas by him.
I wish to listen more.

Not my type: Rubinstein (avoid) - Kovachevic (EMI I guess)

Have not listened to Fischer, Frank, although I read good things about them.  :D

But wait for me relistening - careful listening may take days. Details may follow.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 20, 2007, 10:33:21 AM
Quote from: bassio on December 20, 2007, 10:12:33 AM
Hey guys, I am new here. How are you doing?


Welcome!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: longears on December 21, 2007, 02:55:47 PM
Quote from: bassio on December 20, 2007, 10:12:33 AM
Not my type: Rubinstein (avoid)
:o Oy!

Welcome anyway, bassio!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bassio on December 21, 2007, 05:09:09 PM
Quote from: longears on December 21, 2007, 02:55:47 PM
:o Oy!

Welcome anyway, bassio!


Hey, wait a minute  :o .. I only meant his Beethoven.

Also to avoid: Horowitz's Beethoven .. except for a very good Pathetique and a reasonable Moonlight (as my memory serves)

Some also say the Emperor but I have not heard that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Josquin des Prez on December 21, 2007, 05:20:21 PM
Emil Gilels (everything)

Vladimir Feltsman (late sonatas)

Ivan Moravec (Moonlight, Pathetique, Appassionata)

Stephen Kovacevich (late sonatas and Diabelli only)

I wish Krystian Zimerman would do a complete set, before he kicks the bucket that is (why Gilels, why?!??).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 21, 2007, 06:25:16 PM
Quote from: bassio on December 21, 2007, 05:09:09 PM
Hey, wait a minute  :o .. I only meant his Beethoven.

Also to avoid: Horowitz's Beethoven .. except for a very good Pathetique and a reasonable Moonlight (as my memory serves)

Some also say the Emperor but I have not heard that.

I actually like Rubinstein in Beethoven though I am willing to admit that there is the odd dud recording of his out there. His Appassionata from 1945 is just jaw dropping and you can get an idea of how it was by watching the Stage 6 recording that was posted. Remember that AR was 80 when this was recorded so imagine him 35 years younger. I also like his approach to Op 13 and his Op 31/3 is very good indeed. Then you get to the concertos and his way with the G major 4th is a favourite of mine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: op.110 on May 29, 2008, 11:33:19 PM
I'm sure there have already been tons of posts on the topic; could someone kindly guide me in the right direction?

If not (which I highly doubt), post away your suggestions. And if you have nothing better to do, or want to repeat yourselves, feel free to help out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on May 29, 2008, 11:37:06 PM
Most people (me included) would suggest that for optimal results, get them individually. But the one set I am very happy about is Annie Fischer's on Hungariton.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 29, 2008, 11:51:19 PM
I have to agree. I've heard a number of LvB sonata cycles including both Barenboims (EMI & DG), Schnabel, Brendel, Kovacevich, etc. If I chose the best from all that I've heard (including partial cycles) I can't really think of a single sonata where Annie Fischer is the top choice (#20 excepted possibly). But as a set this is the most coherent and well played of the lot. There is not a single dud amongst the 32 and this is the only set that of which I can truly state that this is the case. However, it's expensive.

Todd is our resident LvB sonata aficionado and I'm sure he will chime in here. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 01:05:19 AM
This reminds me, I've yet to investigate Annie Fischer's cycle. Is there a boxset available or should one locate the individual issues?

In the recommendations' department; for a cycle that ranges from very good to excellent throughout and in mid-price do consider Gulda. If you opt for the Decca instead of the Brilliant incarnation (the price difference is rather slight) you also get the piano concertos (with VPO/Stein).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on May 30, 2008, 01:12:32 AM
Among complete cycles, and although I greatly enjoy Schnabel, Kovacevich, Brendel and - indeed - Paul Lewis' recent work, I still consistently return to this one, my very first:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417SJASKPJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


It has a poise unmatched even by Schnabel (or particularly by Schnabel, one might say ;D) - although your mileage may vary, as they say; and it certainly won't win any awards for high-fidelity sound. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Harry on May 30, 2008, 01:36:21 AM
Only two sets with me, I am afraid.
The first recommendation I have to give is Alfons Perl, on Arte Nova, temporarily out of the catalog I hope.
A fresh approach, well articulated, and eager to make his way in these sonatas. His emotional impact is amazing.
Daniel Barenboim takes second place, he is constant and enough distant to generate a balanced interpretation.
Its a direct and lucid approach.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 30, 2008, 01:52:54 AM
My favorites at the moment (other than Kempff) are

Backhaus, authoritative, clear cut, not as demonstrative as Gulda

Heidsieck, individual, sometimes surprising in details, but without idiosyncrasies

Solomon, (incomplete), a middle of the road interpretation in the best sense

Lortie, (incomplete) poetical, in essence much like Kempff

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on May 30, 2008, 04:10:19 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 30, 2008, 01:36:21 AM

The first recommendation I have to give is Alfons Perl, on Arte Nova, temporarily out of the catalog I hope.

Why do you hope that? Do you want to keep him for yourself?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on May 30, 2008, 04:30:54 AM
Quote from: op.110 on May 29, 2008, 11:33:19 PM
I'm sure there have already been tons of posts on the topic; could someone kindly guide me in the right direction?

If not (which I highly doubt), post away your suggestions. And if you have nothing better to do, or want to repeat yourselves, feel free to help out.

  This really is George's  0:)  0:) field of expertise. I put 2  0:) next to George's (bless him  0:)) name because I took his advice when I bought my first and only COMPLETE Beethoven Sonata Cycle and have been on cloud 9 every time I listen to them. 

  PS: I bought the Gulda set on Brilliant in case you were wondering.

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on May 30, 2008, 04:36:35 AM
Quote from: erato on May 30, 2008, 04:10:19 AM
Why do you hope that? Do you want to keep him for yourself?

"Temporarily out of the catalog, I hope."

Versus "temporarily, out of the catalog I hope" as you seemed to have read it, little sense as it might make this way.


In other words he hopes it will be back in the catalog before long; interesting misinterpretation, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on May 30, 2008, 05:23:26 AM
To add to other excellent suggestions: Emil Gilels

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LK3UUwEmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mn dave on May 30, 2008, 05:30:07 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 01:05:19 AM
In the recommendations' department; for a cycle that ranges from very good to excellent throughout and in mid-price do consider Gulda.

A bargain.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on May 30, 2008, 05:41:20 AM
Most suggestions I would make have already been made: individual performances are, long term, the preferred way to go. But that takes familiarity with a wide range of performers and recordings. For integral and almost-complete sets, I will second:
- Annie Fischer
- Backhaus
- Solomon (incomplete)

Gulda, Kempff (mono or stereo), Schnabel all have commendable qualities, as well, but my first choices remain the three above. Had Gilels or--especially--Richter done integral sets, they would be major contenders. As it is, Gilels' "almost complete" set on DGG is very fine but I prefer his interps in live performances from earlier in his career. And when Richter is in full flight, nobody even comes close, but he just didn't give us enough...

Enjoy exploring,

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 30, 2008, 05:45:19 AM
After an excellent review by resident Beethoven master Todd, I picked up a box by the young Italian pianist Andrea Lucchesini as my first Beethoven sonata cycle, and I have been very, very happy. As a "first set" it has worked well for me because -a- it's one of the cheapest, and -b- Lucchesini is marvelous. He is certainly from the more lyrical school of playing, with a uniquely beautiful tone, and in mighty fine digital sound (they are all live recordings). Todd has mentioned that Lucchesini's box is just outside his top ten, and I'd recommend it as an easy and very nice way to be introduced to beautiful performances of all 32 sonatas.

Since then I've listened to Annie Fischer and a few of the others, but, to be honest, my favorite Beethoven sonata playing is from Paul Komen, who plays fortepianos built in Beethoven's own lifetime and is one of the most marvelous pianists I know. He has not finished his cycle yet :( , but his Op. 111 is, as far as I'm concerned, the last word.

Harry - do you mean Alfredo Perl? :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 30, 2008, 06:16:36 AM
There are so many cycles, offering so many takes.  I'll just list the ones I've heard with the briefest of comments.  I'm not including nearly complete, on-going cycles.  (Incidentally, the Alfredo Perl set is available on Oehms now.)

Intense, strong: Annie Fischer

Fast, lean, intense: Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo), Stephen Kovacevich, Seymour Lipkin

Fast, lean, lithe: Michael Levinas, Yukio Yokoyama, Kun Woo Paik (okay, not as lean as the others)

Slower, lean, not quite as lithe: Aldo Ciccolini, Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)

"Intellectual," meticulous: Alfred Brendel (all three, with the analog Philips cycle the best), Friedrich Gulda (Decca – harder to describe), Craig Sheppard

Old-style cavalier pianism (though not in the 19th Century fashion): Yves Nat (for a Gallic flavor), Wilhelm Backhaus (for a Germanic one; mono cycle is better), Dino Ciani (though his is newer style)

"Romantic," but also meticulous: Daniel Barenboim (all three, his most recent DVD cycle being his best)

Swift(ish), warm, poetic: Andrea Lucchesini

Poetic, measured: Wilhelm Kempff (mono cycle is better), John O'Conor

Large-scaled, broad: Emil Gilels, Claudio Arrau, Ikuyo Nakamichi, Paul Lewis

Individual, idiosyncratic, even eccentric: Eric Heidsieck, Russell Sherman, Anton Kuerti, Georges Pludermacher

(Mostly) straight-forward, no-nonsense playing: Claude Frank, Alfredo Perl, David Allen Wehr, Robert Silverman, Gerard Willems, Akiyoshi Sako

Boring and/or bland: Richard Goode, Abdel Rahman El Bacha, Jean Bernard Pommier, John Lill

Superbly played but still boring: Vladimir Ashkenazy

Terrible: Anne Øland



As to buying: If sound quality is critical, then Ikuyo Nakamichi (pretty good) or Paul Lewis (mostly boring) are that way to go.  If it's price, then Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo), Andrea Lucchesini, or Claude Frank make sense.


My own top ten is roughly along these lines:

Annie Fischer
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)
Wilhelm Kempff (mono)
Robert Silverman
Eric Heidsieck
Emil Gilels
Artur Schnabel
Russell Sherman
Claude Frank
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on May 30, 2008, 06:33:56 AM
Another vote for Lucchesini - I bought it after Todd recommended it a previous time and it was superb, almost a perfect middle-ground style: lots of poetry without lacking power, and the consistency of the set is also impressive.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 30, 2008, 06:39:46 AM
Of the cycles I have:

Frank, Gulda, Giles(29 sonatas), Schnabel, and Ashkenazy my favorite is by far the Frank. It can be straightforward at times, heroic at times, and brimming with classical perfection at times. He does hum along at times which is a bit annoying but you live with that with such staggering playing. I also like Schiff's incomplete set because I think he just brings out the inner voices and details really well.

I don't really like Giles or Ashkenazy. Giles seems a bit laboring to me and Ashkenazy sounds too much like sightreading.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mn dave on May 30, 2008, 06:47:34 AM
I wish I could hear all these fine cycles to see if I need another one. Until then, I'll stick with Gulda, Schnabel and Arrau.

I've heard some of the Fischer. I find it's not so different that I'd want to put up the bucks for it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 06:58:45 AM
Quote from: springrite on May 29, 2008, 11:37:06 PM
Most people (me included) would suggest that for optimal results, get them individually. But the one set I am very happy about is Annie Fischer's on Hungariton.

Saved me some typing.  ;D

Yes, Annie is great and IMO has no equal. Gulda on Brilliant is a nice, much cheaper and almost as good alternative. If his sound or style doesn't work, Gilels's nearly complete cycle on DG has been re-released as a budget box. For a historical take, Schnabel on Naxos Historical or Pearl are legendary. Kempf's mono set will give you better sound and a more refined style. I like Backhaus's more masculine approach and his sound is better too. His stereo Decca set, that is. For modern sound, Kovacevich packs a punch and has interesting things to say. Goode unfortunately only lives up to his name IMO, but many love him.

Then there's those who never did a set but must be heard: Richter, Serkin (esp mono), Yudina and Moravec.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 07:00:30 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 30, 2008, 04:30:54 AM
  This really is George's  0:)  0:) field of expertise. I put 2  0:) next to George's (bless him  0:)) name because I took his advice when I bought my first and only COMPLETE Beethoven Sonata Cycle and have been on cloud 9 every time I listen to them. 

  PS: I bought the Gulda set on Brilliant in case you were wondering.

  marvin

And George must give credit to Todd for recommending the Gulda (and the Fischer.)  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 07:01:52 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 01:05:19 AM
This reminds me, I've yet to investigate Annie Fischer's cycle. Is there a boxset available or should one locate the individual issues?

Yes, there is a set but it is OOP. Amazon US has it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 07:07:36 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 30, 2008, 06:16:36 AM

Slower, lean, not quite as lithe: Aldo Ciccolini...


So you like the Ciccolini? I got it awhile back and couldn't even make it through the 32. I really tried to give it a chance, trying it on different days in small does, but it didn't do much for me. I had the same problem with Brendel's VOX set. Perhaps my tastes are becoming more particular...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 30, 2008, 07:11:57 AM
Quote from: George on May 30, 2008, 07:07:36 AMSo you like the Ciccolini?


Meh.  Some of the sonatas work very well, some not at all.  It's not in my top 20 cycles, I'll say that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 07:13:36 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 01:05:19 AM
This reminds me, I've yet to investigate Annie Fischer's cycle. Is there a boxset available or should one locate the individual issues?

Here's a link to the set:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00005YK81/ref=dp_olp_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1212160244&sr=8-1
(Go with Newbury Comics, the best seller on amazon IMO)


I wrote this amazon review last year and will post it here because it best describes my feelings about the Annie Fischer set and some others as well.

I happen to know for a fact that there are a number of you out there who are finding it hard to decide to pay the asking price for this set. Therefore, I shall try to explain why you should do so, immediately.

First of all, I will say that I own complete cyles by Gulda, Fischer, Schnabel, Kempff (mono), Kovacevich and Backhaus (stereo). Of these, Annie's is my favorite complete set. Easily. I also own single/double discs by Serkin, Richter, Moravec, Horowitz, Gilels, Goode, O'Conor, Pollini, Kempff (stereo), Arrau, Brendel, Jando and Rubinstein. Annie also trumps many of these as well.

Secondly, I must say that Annie's cycle is remarkably consistent, I think she does excellent or superb on 25 of the 32. In the others, she is fair or good. In my experience, this is no small feat, in fact only Gulda equals her in consistency, though not in quality. Gulda tends to rush through these works, something which doesn't always come off well and even when it does, he still lack's Fischer's depth. Schnabel's legendary set, now available on Naxos from European sellers with excellent transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn, is of course very consistent and superbly played. However, many will likely pass on this set due to the historical sound. Kempff plays these works on a smaller scale that doesn't always work for me, though few can match his tone and beauty. Backhaus's more masculine approach is more to my liking, though his slow movements are played too fast, like Gulda, and therefore lack depth. Kovacevich's set is more aggressive than even Annie's. Fischer is surprisingly agressive when needed and deeply touching and sensitive when appropriate. She handles all three of the main periods of Lvb's works with equal achievement, an incredible feat.

Third, the quality of her playing simply has to be heard to be believed. The opening to her Appassionata sonata dispels all worries that you might have that she isn't up the job. You can listen here at Amazon on the page that hold the single disc from this set. It sounds like thunder from the heavens, as does the finale here and in the Moonlight Sonata. She finds young energy in the early works and confident strength and power in the heroic middle sonatas. Her Op. 31 is easily my favorite, combining a great sense of rhythm, drama and beauty. Her Late Sonatas are incredibly profound and gorgeous. Without resorting to some of the more extreme tempo choices others have made, she finds a style all her own that works magnificently. In fact, her tempo choices are almost always just right, never rushing, nor letting the tempo sag.

Fourth, when compared to her closest rivals, Schnabel, Gulda, and Kempff, her set has superior sound. She plays a gorgeously dark sounding Bosendorfer that was recorded remarkably well. Her recordings were made in the 70's and 80's and the close miking accurately conveys her sweet tone and powerful fortes of her instrument. Sure, Goode and Kovacevich may have better sound, but IMO they don't play at her level. Goode's interpretations lack excitement at times, while Kovacevich seems to focus a bit too much on excitement.

Fifth, you will notice that the price changes from time to time by some of the marketplace sellers, buying it now saves you from paying more for it later. More importantly, there may not even be a later, for this set is hard to find as it is. This can certainly suggest that it may not stay in print. With talent like this, why gamble? This is mostly a matter of taste of course, I suggest that you listen to the samples here and compare for yourself. I really don't think that you'll be sorry if you choose Annie, though!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 30, 2008, 07:11:57 AM

Meh.  Some of the sonatas work very well, some not at all.  It's not in my top 20 cycles, I'll say that.

I had high hopes for it, as I just heard his wonderful Chopin Nocturnes. I do need to hear the rest though. Perhaps there are some diamonds in the rough. 

For example - Bernard Roberts has one of the worst cycles I have heard, yet he also has a few works where I think very few can equal him (Op.110, Moonlight Sonata - off the top of my head.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on May 30, 2008, 08:28:43 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 30, 2008, 04:36:35 AM
"Temporarily out of the catalog, I hope."

Versus "temporarily, out of the catalog I hope" as you seemed to have read it, little sense as it might make this way.


In other words he hopes it will be back in the catalog before long; interesting misinterpretation, though.
Wouldn't "only temporarily out of the catalogue, I hope" be better (and unequivocal), I read that he hoped it was temporarily out of the catalogue whereas I would hope it was in the catalogue...whether temporarily or not.

Well, no matter really.....but I really misunderstood that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Harry on May 30, 2008, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: erato on May 30, 2008, 08:28:43 AM
Wouldn't "only temporarily out of the catalogue, I hope" be better (and unequivocal), I read that he hoped it was temporarily out of the catalogue whereas I would hope it was in the catalogue...whether temporarily or not.

Well, no matter really.....but I really misunderstood that.

Yes it should have been "Only temporarily out of the catalogue, I hope.
Sorry for the confusion. After reading it, I wondered too!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Anne on May 30, 2008, 08:46:23 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 30, 2008, 05:23:26 AM
To add to other excellent suggestions: Emil Gilels

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LK3UUwEmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I agree with Bunny: Gilels.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on May 30, 2008, 09:27:02 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 30, 2008, 08:32:14 AM
Yes it should have been "Only temporarily out of the catalogue, I hope.
Sorry for the confusion. After reading it, I wondered too!
OK, we're good!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 09:37:39 AM
Quote from: Anne on May 30, 2008, 08:46:23 AM
I agree with Bunny: Gilels.

If only his outer movements were faster, he'd be a top choice for sure. His slow movements are unmatched IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: George on May 30, 2008, 07:13:36 AM
Here's a link to the set:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00005YK81/ref=dp_olp_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1212160244&sr=8-1
(Go with Newbury Comics, the best seller on amazon IMO)


I wrote this amazon review last year and will post it here because it best describes my feelings about the Annie Fischer set and some others as well.

I happen to know for a fact that there are a number of you out there who are finding it hard to decide to pay the asking price for this set. Therefore, I shall try to explain why you should do so, immediately.

First of all, I will say that I own complete cyles by Gulda, Fischer, Schnabel, Kempff (mono), Kovacevich and Backhaus (stereo). Of these, Annie's is my favorite complete set. Easily. I also own single/double discs by Serkin, Richter, Moravec, Horowitz, Gilels, Goode, O'Conor, Pollini, Kempff (stereo), Arrau, Brendel, Jando and Rubinstein. Annie also trumps many of these as well.

Secondly, I must say that Annie's cycle is remarkably consistent, I think she does excellent or superb on 25 of the 32. In the others, she is fair or good. In my experience, this is no small feat, in fact only Gulda equals her in consistency, though not in quality. Gulda tends to rush through these works, something which doesn't always come off well and even when it does, he still lack's Fischer's depth. Schnabel's legendary set, now available on Naxos from European sellers with excellent transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn, is of course very consistent and superbly played. However, many will likely pass on this set due to the historical sound. Kempff plays these works on a smaller scale that doesn't always work for me, though few can match his tone and beauty. Backhaus's more masculine approach is more to my liking, though his slow movements are played too fast, like Gulda, and therefore lack depth. Kovacevich's set is more aggressive than even Annie's. Fischer is surprisingly agressive when needed and deeply touching and sensitive when appropriate. She handles all three of the main periods of Lvb's works with equal achievement, an incredible feat.

Third, the quality of her playing simply has to be heard to be believed. The opening to her Appassionata sonata dispels all worries that you might have that she isn't up the job. You can listen here at Amazon on the page that hold the single disc from this set. It sounds like thunder from the heavens, as does the finale here and in the Moonlight Sonata. She finds young energy in the early works and confident strength and power in the heroic middle sonatas. Her Op. 31 is easily my favorite, combining a great sense of rhythm, drama and beauty. Her Late Sonatas are incredibly profound and gorgeous. Without resorting to some of the more extreme tempo choices others have made, she finds a style all her own that works magnificently. In fact, her tempo choices are almost always just right, never rushing, nor letting the tempo sag.

Fourth, when compared to her closest rivals, Schnabel, Gulda, and Kempff, her set has superior sound. She plays a gorgeously dark sounding Bosendorfer that was recorded remarkably well. Her recordings were made in the 70's and 80's and the close miking accurately conveys her sweet tone and powerful fortes of her instrument. Sure, Goode and Kovacevich may have better sound, but IMO they don't play at her level. Goode's interpretations lack excitement at times, while Kovacevich seems to focus a bit too much on excitement.

Fifth, you will notice that the price changes from time to time by some of the marketplace sellers, buying it now saves you from paying more for it later. More importantly, there may not even be a later, for this set is hard to find as it is. This can certainly suggest that it may not stay in print. With talent like this, why gamble? This is mostly a matter of taste of course, I suggest that you listen to the samples here and compare for yourself. I really don't think that you'll be sorry if you choose Annie, though!


Thanks, George!

Unfortunately, amazon sellers don't ship to Greece; even if they did, this box - coming from the US of A -  is expensive enough to get me in business with customs.
I'll try locating it through a European source or hunt down the individual discs... or just wait for an eventual reissue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on May 30, 2008, 11:08:17 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 10:41:54 AM
I'll try locating it through a European source or hunt down the individual discs... or just wait for an eventual reissue.

Hungaroton site cites this as their Greek distributor, how much up to date that is don't know but you could try.

DISCOPHILE
Neocles Bravos
13,Ippocratous street
10679 Athens,Greece
tel/fax:0030-210-3600030
discophile@ath.forthnet.gr
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 11:48:19 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 30, 2008, 11:08:17 AM
Hungaroton site cites this as their Greek distributor, how much up to date that is don't know but you could try.

DISCOPHILE
Neocles Bravos
13,Ippocratous street
10679 Athens,Greece
tel/fax:0030-210-3600030
discophile@ath.forthnet.gr

...or just go there. I know where this store is (in an arcade - incidentally, just across the street from the Athens Bar - where most Athenian classical music stores are located), although it's very likely to be overpriced.

Thanks a lot, Drasko!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 11:48:19 AM
...or just go there. I know where this store is (in an arcade - incidentally, just across the street from the Athens Bar - where most Athenian classical music stores are located), although it's very likely to be overpriced.

Thanks a lot, Drasko!  :)

Drasko
is indeed the man when it comes to CD searching.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: George on May 30, 2008, 11:51:51 AM

Drasko
is indeed the man when it comes to CD searching.  8)

By the way, George, that was a very good review. I quoted it in full in order to have it available/attached in my line of posts (see previous posts feature) for future reference.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 12:09:16 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 12:07:41 PM
By the way, George, that was a very good review. I quoted it in full in order to have it available/attached in my line of posts (see previous posts feature) for future reference.

Thanks very much. I edited the "GMG version" for spelling and grammar mistakes. I spent a few hours on the original too, IIRC.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 30, 2008, 01:36:02 PM
After you've made your decision and purchased a set and then listened to it, it will be time for you to go out and acquire performances of the individual sonatas the really appeal. There are part or full cycles out there that have some incredible performances and these are worth seeking out.

For example, both Kovacevich and Dubravka Tomsic  have made recordings of the Waldstein that have blown me away and nobody comes close to matching those with the possible exception of Gilels. Richter owns the Appassionata IMO but listen to Gilels' live Moscow performance from 1960 and you hear a definite rival along with Rubinstein's jaw dropping 1945 rendition.

Op 111 also throws up some candidates but for me it's a toss up between Barenboim (EMI) and Arrau (Classic Archives DVD). Moravec plays the best version of Op 90 that I've heard and then there's Richter again who has produced a peerless version of Op 13 (Moscow 1960). Who can match the brooding intensity of Solomon's "Moonlight" or Hungerford's deep and mystical op 31/3. I could go on and maybe we need a thread or two about favourite recordings of individual LvB PS recordings. One day I'll sit down and burn a compilation '32' from my favourites for each work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 01:50:26 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 30, 2008, 01:36:02 PM
For example, both Kovacevich and Dubravka Tomsic  have made recordings of the Waldstein that have blown me away and nobody comes close to matching those with the possible exception of Gilels.

Have you heard Serkin's mono recording of this work?  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2008, 01:53:40 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 30, 2008, 01:36:02 PM
Op 111 also throws up some candidates but for me it's a toss up between Barenboim (EMI) and Arrau (Classic Archives DVD).

For me Yudina delivers the best version of this one. Serkin's unreleased Op. 110 (1960) is unparalleled.

Quote
... maybe we need a thread or two about favourite recordings of individual LvB PS recordings.

Now you're talking.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 30, 2008, 06:04:34 PM
Goode isn't boring, of course.

He just happily strolls along in this music without mannerisms, without distorting, without showboating, without bludgeoning, etc...

Just give him a Beethoven score and let him dig, dig, dig. Dig with his powerful vision (that powerful X-ray vision he has! ;D) to uncover all the wondrous shapes and felicities which fill out the musical argument. All the while keeping a lively watch on the music's forward momentum. No bar line sag, ever.

If he lacks an 'angle' that's to his credit. The music simply...'simmers' (to its benefit) under his imaginative touch.

So, in short: gimme Goode any day. Despite rival cycles. 

No doubt some will be wondering from whence I derived this krazy konklusion. To them I offer a rundown of my credentials...

...I own Annie Fischer's cycle, Kempff's mono cycle, Gilels DG (near) cycle, along with tons of Richter...plus various individual CDs of Backhaus, Hobson, Solomon, McCawley, Pogorelich, Perahia, Friedman, Vogt, and who knows how many others over the years.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 30, 2008, 08:53:49 PM
I would also add that despite all the adulation that Annie Fischer's set seems to have garnered on this thread I've yet to be wowed by it. Particularly the early sonatas bug me as they lack the youthful ardor so important to bringing these works off.




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don on May 30, 2008, 10:17:49 PM
My favored performers are Gilels, A. Fischer, Gulda, Richter, Brendel, Sheppard and Sherman.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 30, 2008, 11:32:08 PM
Quote from: George on May 30, 2008, 01:50:26 PM
Have you heard Serkin's mono recording of this work?  :o

No
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: val on May 31, 2008, 01:30:24 AM
The best version is, to me, the one of Friedrich Gulda (BRILLIANT CLASSICS). But I wouldn't advise anyone to start with it.

To discover this Sonatas, perhaps Brendel (VOX) or Annie Fischer are the best choices. They play simple, with lyricism and show a perfect balance.

Then, to go further in the universe of this extraordinary masterpieces, Schnabel, the first to record them, Arrau, slow but with an unique eloquence, Backhaus, severe but with his fascinating sense of the structure of each work (but he does not repeat the expositions), and Kempff (1951) with a very nice sound, deeply poetic.

Not forgetting the isolated CD of Serkin, Sviatoslav Richter, Solomon, Gilels, Michelangeli, Gelber ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 03:43:49 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 11:48:19 AM
...or just go there. I know where this store is (in an arcade - incidentally, just across the street from the Athens Bar - where most Athenian classical music stores are located), although it's very likely to be overpriced.

That is bordering on being an understatement. ;D

But their stock is unmatched in the small labels, as far as I'm aware.


On-topic, I wonder why Paul Lewis is so unmentioned in this thread. Yes, I'll grant you he's no "devil of the keyboard", but honestly, his cycle has blown me away! If not for the magisterial Kempff, Lewis would easily be my first choice. :)

(One of these times I agree with Bryce Morrison's praise, bar the general high-flung bombast of his chosen writing style.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 31, 2008, 07:07:19 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 03:43:49 AMOn-topic, I wonder why Paul Lewis is so unmentioned in this thread.



Possibly because he's not very good, at least overall.  Some of the sonatas are really superb - the 106, for some reason, and the Op 49 works come to mind - but almost without fail I find him one of the least compelling Beethoven players on disc.  He's got beautiful tone, excellent technique, but he's almost as boring as Goode.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 08:25:17 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2008, 07:07:19 AM


Possibly because he's not very good, at least overall.  Some of the sonatas are really superb - the 106, for some reason, and the Op 49 works come to mind - but almost without fail I find him one of the least compelling Beethoven players on disc.  He's got beautiful tone, excellent technique, but he's almost as boring as Goode.

Yes, I registered the view previously.

But "he's not good" to "I find him one of the least compelling" have quite a distance between them, so I was just wondering why so few people find him compelling, when indeed "compelling" would probably be the word I'd use to describe him, myself.

Just being curious. Otherwise, tastes differ. And as I said (and repeated) above, I still prefer Kempff. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on May 31, 2008, 09:43:42 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 30, 2008, 06:04:34 PM


...I own Annie Fischer's cycle, Kempff's mono cycle, Gilels DG (near) cycle, along with tons of Richter...plus various individual CDs of Backhaus, Hobson, Solomon, McCawley, Pogorelich, Perahia, Friedman, Vogt, and who knows how many others over the years.



  You haven't heard Gulda on the Brilliant label donwyn??  You won't believe the quick pace coupled with the remarkable precision of his playing.  Very exciting performances indeed!  Yup, Gulda's  8) my man here!

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 03:21:34 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2008, 07:07:19 AM
He's got beautiful tone, excellent technique, but he's almost as boring as Goode.

Pistols at twenty paces...



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 31, 2008, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: donwyn on May 31, 2008, 03:21:34 PM
Pistols at twenty paces...

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:utF9FYoN7kqigM:http://www.goodha.com/FStore/Work_Files/2007/11/25/136/thr_136_28780384.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ezodisy on May 31, 2008, 03:43:07 PM
Quote from: donwyn on May 31, 2008, 03:21:34 PM
Pistols at twenty paces...

Don't ask me how I found it, but this should help the two of you: http://www.gayduel.com
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 04:16:31 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 31, 2008, 09:43:42 AM
  You haven't heard Gulda on the Brilliant label donwyn??  You won't believe the quick pace coupled with the remarkable precision of his playing.  Very exciting performances indeed!  Yup, Gulda's  8) my man here!

  marvin

Marvin,

No, I've never heard Gulda's Beethoven. But I'm familiar with his style from an LP I have of him in various other repertoire. Yes, Gulda is fleet but on the LP I have fleetness doesn't necessarily equate with depth.

I don't mind a performer being methodical (read: more tempered) as long as what they're conjuring from the score makes up for what might be considered 'lagging about'. I simply don't get bored when a performer goes on an excavating tour of the music and comes up with gold nuggets. Maybe I'm lucky...maybe I have a certain tolerance others don't in the absence of 500 horsepower, super-turbo-charged, drag strip renditions of a given piece.

All I know is I simply don't need speed to get me excited. To me the world revolves around that age old adage: 'there's beauty in the details'. Certainly I'm not immune to the rush of a neck-breaking rollercoaster ride (Six Flags is fifteen minutes from me! ;D) but honestly I can get just as great a kick from breaking down the in's and out's of how the ride induces such a rush.

So when a performer - say, of Goode's caliber - puts on the breaks and trips around the 'innards' of a particular work, unlocking the mysteries one by one instead of whizzing them all by me en masse, I take notice.

Anyway, not that I wouldn't like Gulda's Beethoven if I heard it. I bet it's great! I just haven't the urge right now to invest in any more Beethoven sonatas. Although, y'know, my birthday is right around the corner... ;D




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 04:56:40 PM
Quote from: George on May 31, 2008, 03:35:04 PM
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:utF9FYoN7kqigM:http://www.goodha.com/FStore/Work_Files/2007/11/25/136/thr_136_28780384.gif)


;D


(http://content9.flixster.com/photo/90/97/45/9097455_gal.jpg)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 31, 2008, 04:59:52 PM
No one's faster than the Waco Kid I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 31, 2008, 05:04:07 PM
donwyn's next avatar:

(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjE3MTEyNTg1MF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwODExNjM2._V1._CR74,0,301,301_SS100_.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 05:06:43 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2008, 04:59:52 PM
No one's faster than the Waco Kid I'm afraid.

:D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 05:11:36 PM
Quote from: George on May 31, 2008, 05:04:07 PM
donwyn's next avatar:

(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjE3MTEyNTg1MF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwODExNjM2._V1._CR74,0,301,301_SS100_.jpg)

;D

Done! ;D




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 31, 2008, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: donwyn on May 31, 2008, 05:11:36 PM
Done! ;D






;D :D ;D

literally laughing out loud!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 31, 2008, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: donwyn on May 30, 2008, 08:53:49 PM
I would also add that despite all the adulation that Annie Fischer's set seems to have garnered on this thread I've yet to be wowed by it. Particularly the early sonatas bug me as they lack the youthful ardor so important to bringing these works off.
I'm with you, buckaroo.  Like Gulda's "Brilliant" set, or Buchbinder's, or those I've heard by Brendel, the Fischer recordings are good enough, but I'm not merely pleased but wowed by Kempf, Kovacevich, and Goode, and by each in different ways.  I probably ought to sell some of my other cycles, since when I listen to one I always think of what I'm missing by not hearing one of these three.  Still, for anyone seeking a first cycle with which to gain familiarity with this amazing body of work, Gulda's cycle on Brilliant is certainly a cost effective way to go.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 06:24:42 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 31, 2008, 05:47:39 PM
I'm with you, buckaroo. 

Are you referring to my new avatar? ;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 06:25:49 PM
Quote from: George on May 31, 2008, 05:13:11 PM
;D :D ;D

literally laughing out loud!

Yeah, that was a heck of a laugh! ;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 31, 2008, 09:05:58 PM
Quote from: donwyn on May 31, 2008, 06:24:42 PM
Are you referring to my new avatar? ;D
Absolutely.  And I really am from Waco.  (It's twue, it's twue!)  And I thank you for your constant graciousness, impeccable good taste (save for your curious fondness for a certain Sibelius cycle!  ;) ), and consistently fine recommendations. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 31, 2008, 09:23:57 PM
In honor of the Blazing Saddles love going on at the moment, I'll change my avatar to a portrait of Harvey Korman, who sadly passed away two days ago at the age of 81. He will be missed. :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PSmith08 on May 31, 2008, 09:57:14 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 31, 2008, 09:23:57 PM
In honor of the Blazing Saddles love going on at the moment, I'll change my avatar to a portrait of Harvey Korman, who sadly passed away two days ago at the age of 81. He will be missed. :(

Indeed he will.

His pinnacle, for me, will always be High Anxiety and his brilliant turn as Dr. Charles Montague.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2008, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 31, 2008, 09:05:58 PM
Absolutely.  And I really am from Waco.  (It's twue, it's twue!)  And I thank you for your constant graciousness, impeccable good taste (save for your curious fondness for a certain Sibelius cycle!  ;) ), and consistently fine recommendations. 

Well, thank you very much for saying so, Dave! And back atcha!

And about that Ashkenazy cycle...I'll try...(first step is admitting there's a problem, right? ;D).



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on May 31, 2008, 10:40:44 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2008, 07:07:19 AM
Possibly because he's not very good, at least overall.  Some of the sonatas are really superb - the 106, for some reason, and the Op 49 works come to mind - but almost without fail I find him one of the least compelling Beethoven players on disc.  He's got beautiful tone, excellent technique, but he's almost as boring as Goode.

I mostly agree with this view (I'm not familiar with Goode's Beethoven). Lewis has very good qualities (his tone, especially, is indeed beautiful) and some quite interesting insights but the overall results in most cases (including many of the well known sonatas) end up being undistinguished and pedestrian. His sometimes audible hum of a breath can be distracting (and unwillingly funny), too, but that's really Harmonia Mundi's problem.

Quote from: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 08:25:17 AM
But "he's not good" to "I find him one of the least compelling" have quite a distance between them...

Otherwise, tastes differ.

It's just that; he is good in many ways but the synthesis of his qualities doesn't satisfy (certainly not as much as some reviews would make one think) and we all know Beethoven's sonatas are much more than the sum of their parts. An ongoing cycle which I feel it's really worth getting to know is Schiff's; I find him much more insightful than Lewis at any rate.
And, of course, your last sentence says it all.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on June 01, 2008, 05:41:16 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 31, 2008, 10:40:44 PM
It's just that; he is good in many ways but the synthesis of his qualities doesn't satisfy (certainly not as much as some reviews would make one think) and we all know Beethoven's sonatas are much more than the sum of their parts. An ongoing cycle which I feel it's really worth getting to know is Schiff's; I find him much more insightful than Lewis at any rate.
And, of course, your last sentence says it all.  :)

More than fair enough! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 05:45:16 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 31, 2008, 10:37:55 PM
And about that Ashkenazy cycle...I'll try...(first step is admitting there's a problem, right? ;D).

I must still be in denial. I see no problem in loving the Ashkenazy Sibelius Symphonies.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on June 01, 2008, 05:47:30 AM
I have only heard one Beethoven sonata from Goode, and it was a LIVE performance. While it was good overall, it did not leave a strong impression and given the strong competition, I did not consider buying the CDs.

I think Goode is at his best playing the wonderful works of George Perle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 01, 2008, 06:21:56 AM
Quote from: George on June 01, 2008, 05:45:16 AM
I must still be in denial. I see no problem in loving the Ashkenazy Sibelius Symphonies.  8)
Nor do I, even though it's probably the set I like least among all I know.  I brought it up with Don because it's such an odd exception to our usually coincident taste--and it's chiefly because he likes it so much that I continue to listen to it in hopes that it will grow on me.  ;D  After all, anyone who appreciates the fluid grace, thoughtful virtuosity, and classical restraint of Goode's Beethoven sonata cycle is one whose opinions are likely to carry particular weight with me (and I'm surprised to find fewer of us here!).  8)

BTW, a couple of others have mentioned Gilels's not-quite-complete cycle.  I have only one disc from that set, but it contains a Waldstein that is so nearly perfect to my ears that I battle myself every time I play it over whether to acquire the boxset or not.  So far I've resisted, but only because I already have several cycles, at least three of which I find very satisfying.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 06:37:30 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 01, 2008, 06:21:56 AM
Nor do I, even though it's probably the set I like least among all I know.  I brought it up with Don because it's such an odd exception to our usually coincident taste--and it's chiefly because he likes it so much that I continue to listen to it in hopes that it will grow on me.  ;D 

I am still trying to do the same with Goode, actually. It may be time for another listening session with his set.  8)

Quote
BTW, a couple of others have mentioned Gilels's not-quite-complete cycle.  I have only one disc from that set, but it contains a Waldstein that is so nearly perfect to my ears that I battle myself every time I play it over whether to acquire the boxset or not.  So far I've resisted, but only because I already have several cycles, at least three of which I find very satisfying.

Oh yeah, that Gilels set is wonderful. You will never hear a set with better slow movements. The mines the depths and discovers gold each time.

The set is cheap and takes up very little shelf space...nudge, nudge.  $:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2008, 06:38:50 AM
I only have 4 or 5 cycles, not heard them all so don't know which is best, but for me, the overall effect of O'Conor's is very nice indeed. From y'all's descriptions, I suppose it is rather more like Goode's than any other, but there is no element of blandness that I can detect, just a wonderful poetry, technical mastery, and topped off with great sound (Telefunken, after all!). I'm of the school that would sooner put a set together from parts than expect to buy one, perfect set, but if I had to just grab one off the shelf, this would be it.

On fortepiano, my preference, there are 2 cycles under way by 2 master pianists, and it is a much harder choice. When they are both finished, choosing between Brautigam and Komen will be extremely difficult. Fortunately, I won't have to choose. :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra / Ferenc Fricsay - LvB Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 5th mvmt
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 06:44:42 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2008, 06:38:50 AM
I only have 4 or 5 cycles, not heard them all so don't know which is best, but for me, the overall effect of O'Conor's is very nice indeed. From y'all's descriptions, I suppose it is rather more like Goode's than any other, but there is no element of blandness that I can detect, just a wonderful poetry, technical mastery, and topped off with great sound (Telefunken, after all!). I'm of the school that would sooner put a set together from parts than expect to buy one, perfect set...

Someone needs to start that best peromance of each sonata thread. Perhaps we could do one thread for each period?


Quote
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra / Ferenc Fricsay - LvB Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 5th mvmt

It must be Sunday... 0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 06:53:54 AM
Quote from: George on May 30, 2008, 09:37:39 AM
If only his outer movements were faster, he'd be a top choice for sure. His slow movements are unmatched IMO.

I don't agree. If his outer movements were faster, he wouldn't be Gilels and he wouldn't have my vote as the top cycle (however incomplete). I prefer Gilels' broader tempos.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2008, 06:58:32 AM
Quote from: George on June 01, 2008, 06:44:42 AM
Someone needs to start that best peromance of each sonata thread. Perhaps we could do one thread for each period?

Holden started it already, beginning with Op 101... :)

QuoteIt must be Sunday... 0:)

0:)   Yes, my treat for the week. Fricsay is a peach. :)

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Haydn - London Sonatas - Ronald Brautigam - Hob 16 49 Sonata #59 in Eb for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio e cantabile
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 07:02:31 AM
Quote from: George on June 01, 2008, 05:45:16 AM
I must still be in denial. I see no problem in loving the Ashkenazy Sibelius Symphonies.  8)

Neither do I...his Third especially I could not live without.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 07:09:33 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 01, 2008, 06:21:56 AM
BTW, a couple of others have mentioned Gilels's not-quite-complete cycle.  I have only one disc from that set, but it contains a Waldstein that is so nearly perfect to my ears....

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/bUTTHEAD.gif)

Superb cover art too:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/BGApp.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 07:27:03 AM
Sarge, you heard the Gilels live Appassionata from the Green Beethoven Gilels Brilliant box?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 07:40:26 AM
Quote from: George on June 01, 2008, 07:27:03 AM
Sarge, you heard the Gilels live Appassionata from the Green Beethoven Gilels Brilliant box?



No I haven't. Worth acquiring? (I think I know your answer  :D )

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 07:45:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 07:40:26 AM
No I haven't. Worth acquiring? (I think I know your answer  :D )

Sarge

;D

Yes, it's worth the price of the whole set for that one performance.

I don't even think you'd know it was the same pianist. It's more - no much more intense and less refined.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 08:14:43 AM
Although Todd, on purpose, didn't include every incomplete set, I think at least one other pianist should be included. I'm hoping he won't mind if I revise his list:

Individual, idiosyncratic, even eccentric: Eric Heidsieck, Russell Sherman, Anton Kuerti, Georges Pludermacher, Glenn Gould.

Although the Appasionata is deliberately sabotaged by GG, and few of the rest come out unscathed by Gouldian distortions, the set is worth hearing and, I think, does contain insights--into Gould's mind, of course, but also Beethoven's. Gould's convictions about Beethoven interpretation were heart-felt and real. Phenomenal, even mind-boggling technique is a given. If nothing else, he makes you sit up and really listen to these overfamiliar works again. The early sonatas are lovingly, and convincingly rendered.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on June 01, 2008, 08:19:15 AM
I love GG's Hammerklavier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 08:22:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 08:14:43 AM
Although Todd, on purpose, didn't include every incomplete set, I think at least one other pianist should be included. I'm hoping he won't mind if I revise his list:

Individual, idiosyncratic, even eccentric: Eric Heidsieck, Russell Sherman, Anton Kuerti, Georges Pludermacher, Glenn Gould.

Although the Appasionata is deliberately sabotaged by GG,

Sarge

   >:( Glenn Gould deliberately sabotaged the Appasionata?? how so?   I have not heard Gould's recording and am interested in reading more about this!

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 08:28:37 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 08:22:23 AM
   >:( Glenn Gould deliberately sabotaged the Appasionata?? how so?   I have not heard Gould's recording and am interested in reading more about this!

  marvin

http://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-Reader-Tim-Page/dp/0679731350

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: George on June 01, 2008, 08:28:37 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-Reader-Tim-Page/dp/0679731350



From the table of contents of that book on page 43 (edit: sorry page 51) he discusses the Appasionata.  I'll have to skim through that book at WH Smith or some other bookstore in London later this week to see what all the fuss is about!!

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 08:52:11 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 08:22:23 AM
   >:( Glenn Gould deliberately sabotaged the Appasionata?? how so?   I have not heard Gould's recording and am interested in reading more about this!

  marvin

Most noticeable is the very deliberate pacing of the first and second movements (so ponderous even I, who loves broad tempos, can become impatient on occasion) and the inversion of dynamics (playing soft where Beethoven marked forté and vice versa). In the slow movement he takes 11 minutes versus Gilels' six and half. It seems to go on forever.

He really hated this sonata. He thought it was egoistic and pompous; a failure not much better than Wellington's Victory. So he decided to play it as egocentrically as possible...in effect giving us in spades what he thought Beethoven meant by the work: total self-absorption.

I have to admit I love it ;D  If you let yourself sink into it, forget preconceptions, forget how everyone else plays it, forget Beethoven basically, the music really works...which I'm sure Gould would have hated  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on June 01, 2008, 08:57:50 AM
At least GG did this only to some of Beethoven's sonatas, whereas he did this to ALL of Mozart's sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 08:59:56 AM
Quote from: springrite on June 01, 2008, 08:19:15 AM
I love GG's Hammerklavier.

I do too. It's a work Gould took seriously and he spent a lot of time on it. It's an amazing performance.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 09:01:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 08:37:01 AM
From the table of contents of that book on page 43 (edit: sorry page 51) he discusses the Appasionata.  I'll have to skim through that book at WH Smith or some other bookstore in London later this week to see what all the fuss is about!!

  marvin

Yeah, if I was more than a three fingered typer, I'd post it for you.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 09:02:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 08:52:11 AM
Most noticeable is the very deliberate pacing of the first and second movements (so ponderous even I, who loves broad tempos, can become impatient on occasion) and the inversion of dynamics (playing soft where Beethoven marked forté and vice versa).

Sarge

Aghh  >:( that's a blasphemy in and of itself.  Beethoven's greatest innovation (ushering in the Romantic movement in music) is to be found in his revoltionary style:  loud one moment, soft the next, very loud in another moment then very soft the next and so on!  Failure to follow his instructions is grounds for immediate dismissal and outrage.  GG should be ashamed of himself!

 marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 09:05:28 AM
Quote from: George on June 01, 2008, 09:01:03 AM
Yeah, if I was more than a three fingered typer, I'd post it for you.

don't worry about it George I'll find a copy of that book later this week  :).

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 09:08:09 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 09:02:33 AM
GG should be ashamed of himself!

  marvin

He wasn't. He thought Beethoven should be ashamed of himself...but that's our Glenn  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2008, 09:09:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 09:08:09 AM
He wasn't. He thought Beethoven should be ashamed of himself...but that's our Glenn  ;D

Sarge

Your Glenn, not mine. I'll share Beethoven with you though. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn - London Sonatas - Ronald Brautigam - Hob 16 50 Sonata #60 in C for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 09:32:39 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2008, 09:09:44 AM
Your Glenn, not mine. I'll share Beethoven with you though. :)

8)

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: springrite on June 01, 2008, 08:57:50 AM
At least GG did this only to some of Beethoven's sonatas, whereas he did this to ALL of Mozart's sonatas.

WHAT THE $£%$!!  He even sabotaged Mozart's sonatas  :o!!  What is wrong with this guy??  First he records Bach's Goldberg Variations on piano  ::) (harpsichord anyone??)  then he mutilates Beethoven's and Mozart's sonatas intentionally  :o and SHAMELESSLY!! Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??  I know, I know stop your questions Marvin and go read the book in George's link  ::)!

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 12:31:29 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 12:06:21 PM
WHAT THE $£%$!!  He even sabotaged Mozart's sonatas  :o!!  What is wrong with this guy??  First he records Bach's Goldberg Variations on piano  ::) (harpsichord anyone??)  then he mutilates Beethoven's and Mozart's sonatas intentionally  :o and SHAMELESSLY!! Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??  I know, I know stop your questions Marvin and go read the book in George's link  ::)!

  marvin

Any decent pianist can play the notes Mozart wrote...it takes a real master to mess them up as ingeniously as Gould did  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 01, 2008, 12:54:43 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 12:06:21 PM
WHAT THE $£%$!!  He even sabotaged Mozart's sonatas  :o!!  What is wrong with this guy??  First he records Bach's Goldberg Variations on piano  ::) (harpsichord anyone??)  then he mutilates Beethoven's and Mozart's sonatas intentionally  :o and SHAMELESSLY!! Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??  I know, I know stop your questions Marvin and go read the book in George's link  ::)!

  marvin
You want to know why? Because

1)GG does not care about Beethoven or Mozart

2)GG cars about GG and nothing and nobody else. Everything HAS to be about him, whether it's Bach or Beethoven or Brahms. He is the antithesis of someone like Claude Frank or Andras Schiff where the music comes first with no fanfare or pretense. With GG there has to be a headline with every performance and recording. He NEEDS to hear the "oohs" and "ahhs" and the audience going: wow GG did this and that.

Frankly I am tired of his antics. His big box set is extremely unenjoyable and I am giving it away to a co-worker instead. She is a big GG fan so maybe she'll put up with him.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 12:06:21 PM
Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??

Some things he recorded because his record company insisted on it (like an album of the famous "named" Beethoven sonatas which produced that distorted Appassionata but a very good, and very fresh and invigorating Moonlight in a proper Classical style). Other things he recorded simply because he wanted to show his contempt for the music. The Mozart cycle is really complicated. I can't quite figure Gould out here. He always claimed he hated Mozart, especially the later sonatas (he tended to prefer the early music of many composers). So why record them all? Why not just the few he liked? A puzzle. (By the way, I like his Mozart; he gives many of the sonatas a Baroque feel which, if not really correct, is always interesting).

Bach was usually peformed on piano in the Fifties so Gould wasn't really breaking any taboos there. And to this day, many of us (myself included) prefer the piano to any other keyboard used in Bach.

But your main question has a simple answer, Marvin: Why was he allowed to record? Because he was a genius of the keyboard and one of the most fascinating musical figures of the century. I like him for another reason: his repertoire wasn't the usual Chopin, Schumann, Liszt but ranged far and wide: Strauss, Schoenberg, Valen, Sibelius, Hindemith, Haydn, Byrd, Gibbons...Wagner! He made brilliant piano versions of the Meistersinger Oveture, the Rhine Journey, the Siegfried Idyll...he loved Wagner. His conducting debut and, as it turned out, his final recording was the Siegfried Idyll with the Toronto SO.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on June 01, 2008, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 01, 2008, 12:54:43 PM


2)GG cars about GG and nothing and nobody else. Everything HAS to be about him,

Wow. Reminds me of the last biography of Wagner that I read.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 01:25:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 12:57:03 PM
Some things he recorded because his record company insisted on it (like an album of the famous "named" Beethoven sonatas which produced that distorted Appassionata but a very good, and very fresh and invigorating Moonlight in a proper Classical style). Other things he recorded simply because he wanted to show his contempt for the music. The Mozart cycle is really complicated. I can't quite figure Gould out here. He always claimed he hated Mozart, especially the later sonatas (he tended to prefer the early music of many composers). So why record them all? Why not just the few he liked? A puzzle. (By the way, I like his Mozart; he gives many of the sonatas a Baroque feel which, if not really correct, is always interesting).

Bach was usually peformed on piano in the Fifties so Gould wasn't really breaking any taboos there. And to this day, many of us (myself included) prefer the piano to any other keyboard used in Bach.

But your main question has a simple answer, Marvin: Why was he allowed to record? Because he was a genius of the keyboard and one of the most fascinating musical figures of the century. I like him for another reason: his repertoire wasn't the usual Chopin, Schumann, Liszt but ranged far and wide: Strauss, Schoenberg, Valen, Sibelius, Hindemith, Haydn, Byrd, Gibbons...Wagner! He made brilliant piano versions of the Meistersinger Oveture, the Rhine Journey, the Siegfried Idyll...he loved Wagner. His conducting debut and, as it turned out, his final recording was the Siegfried Idyll with the Toronto SO.

Sarge

PW, Sarge thanks for your responses.  I do not have a single recording of Gould's and up and until your posts I had no idea he was such a....oh what's the expression I am looking for " Prima Donna".  For some reason piano performers tend to be far more eccentric than one would think.  I have been going through the liner notes of my Gulda set of Beethoven's piano sonata and the last paragraph reads as follows:

 "Gulda liked to stir even outside music.  In 1999 he uncannily announced his own death and disappeared for a few days. Only to reappear later on and have a Resurrection-Party"

 Thankfully his approach to Beethoven's piano sonatas is more.....sensible.

 marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Don on June 01, 2008, 01:28:56 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 01:25:51 PM
PW, Sarge thanks for your responses.  I do not have a single recording of Gould's and up and until your posts I had no idea he was such a....oh what's the expression I am looking for " Prima Donna".  
 marvin

No Gould?  If nothing else, you need to acquire Gould's Bach - there's nothing like it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 01, 2008, 01:32:32 PM
Quote from: Don on June 01, 2008, 01:28:56 PM
No Gould?  If nothing else, you need to acquire Gould's Bach - there's nothing like it.
Seconded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 01:38:27 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 01:25:51 PM
PW, Sarge thanks for your responses.  I do not have a single recording of Gould's and up and until your posts I had no idea he was such a....oh what's the expression I am looking for " Prima Donna".

I prefer "an eccentric character of genius." He thought about things deeply and had reasons for everything he did. That he often went against the grain is to his credit, I think. We need to have the pot stirred occasionally. In the end the man was just like all of us: he loved some things, he loathed others. The difference between him and us is that he had a world stage that allowed him to propagate his love and loathings.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 01, 2008, 02:03:10 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 01, 2008, 01:32:32 PM
Seconded.

make that a triple cheeseburger.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PSmith08 on June 01, 2008, 02:16:13 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 12:06:21 PM
WHAT THE $£%$!!  He even sabotaged Mozart's sonatas  :o!!  What is wrong with this guy??

He was one of the few bona fide musical geniuses of his generation. Gould's approach to a piece, far from being a hack noodling on a keyboard, represents a lot of thought and a lot of talent.

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 01, 2008, 01:25:51 PM
PW, Sarge thanks for your responses.  I do not have a single recording of Gould's and up and until your posts I had no idea he was such a....oh what's the expression I am looking for " Prima Donna".  For some reason piano performers tend to be far more eccentric than one would think.

I'll second the advice that you've been given and tell you to go buy Gould's 1955 Goldbergs (though I prefer the 1959 Salzburg set), his Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1, and his performance of Liszt's transcription of Beethoven's 6th. They'll be a revelation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on June 02, 2008, 06:28:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 12:57:03 PM
I can't quite figure Gould out here.
Sarge

Neither could any of Gould's doctors.  At the very least Gould was severely neurotic: super-hypochondriacal, obsessive (shared Howard Hughes' germ phobia), reclusive, possibly paranoiac, and goodness knows what else.  A small but intriguing bit of his medical history has been made public at the Glenn Gould Archive (http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/glenngould/028010-502.17-e.html), but that raises more questions than answers. 

I have to take Gould's music purely on the basis of the way it sounds to me.  If it sounds good, great.  If it sounds wrong, I won't listen again as I find it too disquieting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 02, 2008, 07:07:32 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 01, 2008, 02:16:13 PM
He was one of the few bona fide musical geniuses of his generation. Gould's approach to a piece, far from being a hack noodling on a keyboard, represents a lot of thought and a lot of talent.


  OK but why does he have to go against the composers' wishes and instructions?   I want to listen to Ludwig van Beethoven's marvelous piano sonatas NOT Ludwig van Gould's  ::) piano sonatas - surely you can sympathize with me here PSmith08?

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2008, 07:17:02 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 02, 2008, 07:07:32 AM
  OK but why does he have to go against the composers' wishes and instructions?   I want to listen to Ludwig van Beethoven's marvelous piano sonatas NOT Ludwig van Gould's  ::) piano sonatas - surely you can sympathize with me here PSmith08?

  marvin

Every Beethoven cycle is different. Which one is truest to Beethoven? They can't all be. Gould takes liberties in some of the sonatas, gross liberties in a few (op.57, 109, 111) but it's always still Beethoven. I don't want to give you the wrong idea, Marvin. Unless you have intimate knowledge of all 32, you might not even notice any deviation in a Gould performance. And some of Gould's performances, like the Pastorale or the Hammerklavier, are among of the best Beethoven you'll ever hear.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 02, 2008, 07:25:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2008, 07:17:02 AM
Every Beethoven cycle is different. Which one is truest to Beethoven? They can't all be. Gould takes liberties in some of the sonatas, gross liberties in a few (op.57, 109, 111) but it's always still Beethoven. I don't want to give you the wrong idea, Marvin. Unless you have intimate knowledge of all 32, you might not even notice any deviation in a Gould performance. And some of Gould's performances, like the Pastorale or the Hammerklavier, are among of the best Beethoven you'll ever hear.

Sarge

  I'll keep an open mind.  I am quite familiar with a lot of Beethoven's piano sonatas.  I used to take piano lessons growing up and have played quite a few excerpts from those sonatas- especially the moonlight and pathetique.  Plus I've listened to the Gulda set so many times so I am quite familiar with all 32.  I think I'll see if I can get my hands on Gould's Appasionate first- I am very curious to hear his interpretation- whether I will subscribe to it or not remains to be seen.

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 02, 2008, 07:32:24 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 02, 2008, 07:07:32 AM
  OK but why does he have to go against the composers' wishes and instructions?   I want to listen to Ludwig van Beethoven's marvelous piano sonatas NOT Ludwig van Gould's  ::) piano sonatas - surely you can sympathize with me here PSmith08?

  marvin

I think the pianist should be allowed a certain amount of interpretive freedom. I believe that back in the day pianists had more freedom than they do today, actually. Frankly, I think that is a good thing, for if they play too close to what is written, the performances begin to sound the same. I have over a dozen sets of these sonatas, but only because they all interpret these works differently. Gould taking that a step or two further is OK with me. I may not enjoy all of it, but I think it's important to allow the pianist to have the freedom to express his interpretation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PSmith08 on June 02, 2008, 08:57:24 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 02, 2008, 07:07:32 AM
  OK but why does he have to go against the composers' wishes and instructions?   I want to listen to Ludwig van Beethoven's marvelous piano sonatas NOT Ludwig van Gould's  ::) piano sonatas - surely you can sympathize with me here PSmith08?

  marvin

I would echo the Sergeant and George, but say this - if the performer is not allowed some degree of artistic freedom, then there is really no sense in performance. "[The] composers' wishes and instructions" will never be clearer than in the score, and, if you can read music, then you should stick to the score. Every performer, save some sort of computer program (and they are getting pretty good, if you want to sit and key in the score information), is going to interpret. Gould probably took more liberties than most, but - unlike many performers - his liberties always had a rationale. (The Sergeant is correct, though, many of his interpretative choices are hard to spot unless you've got a score in front of you and are very familiar with performance practice, others are fairly obvious.) Some of those liberties are positively brilliant and shed new light on old warhorses, and some are clearly the product of a very smart and very eccentric fellow. That's the danger of interpretation. What makes Gould so great, though, is his ability to converse with the score and present his understanding clearly and precisely. The man was an artist.

The irony of that admittedly fabulous (though I end up listening to Pollini often as not) Hammerklavier is that Gould really didn't care for the piece.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on June 03, 2008, 07:07:32 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 02, 2008, 07:07:32 AM
  OK but why does he have to go against the composers' wishes and instructions?   I want to listen to Ludwig van Beethoven's marvelous piano sonatas NOT Ludwig van Gould's  ::) piano sonatas - surely you can sympathize with me here PSmith08?

  marvin

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 02, 2008, 08:57:24 PM
I would echo the Sergeant and George, but say this - if the performer is not allowed some degree of artistic freedom, then there is really no sense in performance. "[The] composers' wishes and instructions" will never be clearer than in the score, and, if you can read music, then you should stick to the score. Every performer, save some sort of computer program (and they are getting pretty good, if you want to sit and key in the score information), is going to interpret. Gould probably took more liberties than most, but - unlike many performers - his liberties always had a rationale. (The Sergeant is correct, though, many of his interpretative choices are hard to spot unless you've got a score in front of you and are very familiar with performance practice, others are fairly obvious.) Some of those liberties are positively brilliant and shed new light on old warhorses, and some are clearly the product of a very smart and very eccentric fellow. That's the danger of interpretation. What makes Gould so great, though, is his ability to converse with the score and present his understanding clearly and precisely. The man was an artist.

The irony of that admittedly fabulous (though I end up listening to Pollini often as not) Hammerklavier is that Gould really didn't care for the piece.

I have to agree: the musician as an artist must have absolute freedom to interpret as he or she wishes.  Sometimes the results are catastrophic; only think of Pogorelich's recent recitals!  However, sometimes the eccentric interpretation benefits the music by revealing things that are more hidden by conventional performance.  Composers' intentions are only guideposts in an ocean of sounds.  In the end, it's the artist's responsibility to make sense of the music and create the performance.  We are only listening, and either enjoying the performance or relegating it to the back shelf. 

Marvin, no one is coercing you to buy or listen to Gould.  If you think from what you have read here that he is not to your taste, then pass him by.  It's a big world and it's crowded with Beethoven recordings. There is more than enough to satisfy everyone's taste, and there are always new "greatest" recordings waiting to be made.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: op.110 on June 04, 2008, 03:16:26 PM
I haven't been on the forums for a few days now; thanks for all your suggestions. I think I'll go with either Gilels or Kempff.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 04, 2008, 03:26:44 PM
Quote from: op.110 on June 04, 2008, 03:16:26 PM
I haven't been on the forums for a few days now; thanks for all your suggestions. I think I'll go with either Gilels or Kempff.

The Gilels can be easily sampled on itunes, but the Kempff is not. Suffice to say that if you want a smaller scaled Beethoven, Kempff is your man. Personally, I think Gilels is better suited to these works as a whole, even if he did miss a few sonatas. He should be cheaper as well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on June 08, 2008, 06:16:52 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 07, 2008, 02:47:49 AM
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Klaviersonaten-Paul-Badura-Skoda/dp/B0000669UV/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1212835442&sr=1-1

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31CYM5QXF1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

How about this one, any opinions?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 08, 2008, 06:31:13 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 08, 2008, 06:16:52 AMHow about this one, any opinions?


Overall a quite enjoyable cycle.  It's on the smaller-scaled, more personal side, and some of PBS' playing is occasionally a bit gruff, but that's quite fine.  His Op 57, 81a, and 106 are highlights for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: marvinbrown on June 08, 2008, 06:38:06 AM
Quote from: op.110 on June 04, 2008, 03:16:26 PM
I haven't been on the forums for a few days now; thanks for all your suggestions. I think I'll go with either Gilels or Kempff.

  I am going to get trampled on by the rest of the GMG members for posting this but isn't the Gilels set incomplete?

  marvin
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 08, 2008, 06:40:39 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 08, 2008, 06:38:06 AM...isn't the Gilels set incomplete?



Alas, yes.  But what's there is more than worth hearing. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 08, 2008, 06:47:18 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 08, 2008, 06:40:39 AM


Alas, yes.  But what's there is more than worth hearing. 

Are there live performances available that can fill in the gaps?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 08, 2008, 06:50:02 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 08, 2008, 06:38:06 AM
  I am going to get trampled on by the rest of the GMG members for posting this but isn't the Gilels set incomplete?

  marvin

He only misses 4 (1, 9, 22 and 32) and includes the two Electoral Sonatas - WoO 47.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 08, 2008, 10:01:36 AM
Quote from: George on June 08, 2008, 06:47:18 AMAre there live performances available that can fill in the gaps?


I haven't looked into Gilels' discography much yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are.  (Once I'm finished with complete or near-complete cycles, I'm going to delve more deeply into individual recordings, hopefully sometime next year.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 08, 2008, 10:35:20 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 08, 2008, 10:01:36 AM

I haven't looked into Gilels' discography much yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are.  (Once I'm finished with complete or near-complete cycles, I'm going to delve more deeply into individual recordings, hopefully sometime next year.)

Yeah, I consulted a few discographies and apparently he never recorded those 4 sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 08, 2008, 10:51:02 AM
Quote from: George on June 08, 2008, 06:50:02 AM
He only misses 4 (1, 9, 22 and 32) and includes the two Electoral Sonatas - WoO 47.

Do not forget the third Electoral Sonate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 08, 2008, 12:20:56 PM
Quote from: premont on June 08, 2008, 10:51:02 AM
Do not forget the third Electoral Sonate.

My set didn't include it.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on June 08, 2008, 12:37:37 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 08, 2008, 06:31:13 AM

Overall a quite enjoyable cycle.  It's on the smaller-scaled, more personal side, and some of PBS' playing is occasionally a bit gruff, but that's quite fine.  His Op 57, 81a, and 106 are highlights for me.

Soudbites do sound quite interesting and he plays on a Bösendorfer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 08, 2008, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: George on June 08, 2008, 12:20:56 PM
My set didn't include it.  :-\

Precisely, do not forget, that he did not record it. Surely his intention was to record it, as he recorded the other two.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 08, 2008, 01:57:38 PM
Quote from: premont on June 08, 2008, 01:56:05 PM
Precisely, do not forget, that he did not record it. Surely his intention was to record it, as he recorded the other two.

Gotcha!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 08, 2008, 02:16:40 PM
Quote from: George on June 08, 2008, 01:57:38 PM
Gotcha!

Great  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sam adams on June 25, 2008, 05:45:53 AM
There is a pretty good write-up here on cycles; it is part way down the page.

http://weta.org/fm/blog/?p=295 (http://weta.org/fm/blog/?p=295)

PS He opts for Gulda(Amadeo)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 17, 2008, 02:02:34 PM
Quote from: sam adams on June 25, 2008, 05:45:53 AM
PS He opts for Gulda(Amadeo)

He actually rates the stereo Backhaus just ahead of the Gulda. Personally, I like the Gulda more. I find it more consistent and more youthful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sam adams on July 18, 2008, 07:58:17 AM
Quote from: George on July 17, 2008, 02:02:34 PM
He actually rates the stereo Backhaus just ahead of the Gulda. Personally, I like the Gulda more. I find it more consistent and more youthful.

That is true. On a personal note he would give up Backhuas last, however he did recommend Gulda first over Backhaus and the rest as a universal cycle if you can only have one. Probably a case that many of us have when they say who their absolute favorite is, but then recommend something else to start with that may have a more widespread appeal.

As for me, I like Gulda and A Fischer the best. However, I have listened to them alot more than Backhaus. I get the feeling he grows on you more with repeated listenings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 18, 2008, 09:50:53 AM
Quote from: sam adams on July 18, 2008, 07:58:17 AM


As for me, I like Gulda and A Fischer the best.

Your taste is impeccable. (they are my two faves as well)  8)

Quote
However, I have listened to them alot more than Backhaus. I get the feeling he grows on you more with repeated listenings.

I have heard that. I need to revisit my set, as I have heard it since I first listened through it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sam adams on July 21, 2008, 06:09:27 AM
Quote from: George on July 18, 2008, 09:50:53 AM
Your taste is impeccable. (they are my two faves as well)  8)

I have heard that. I need to revisit my set, as I have heard it since I first listened through it.

I don't know if my taste is impeccable due to the fact that I have not listened to a fraction of the sets that you and Todd have.

I only have heard:

Frank (cut my teeth with this set)
Gulda (Amadeo)
A Fischer
Backhaus (Stereo)
Schnabel
Arrau (1960's)

I also have Solomon's and Pollini's late sets. I feel I need to hear Rosen's late set from all the praise heaped upon it in every message board I visit (even RMCR, who can't seem to agree on anything except that). I cannot find it avaible at a reasonable cost any longer. It seems to be OOP.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41m1T13kuhL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2008, 07:07:38 AM
Quote from: sam adams on July 21, 2008, 06:09:27 AM
I feel I need to hear Rosen's late set from all the praise heaped upon it in every message board I visit (even RMCR, who can't seem to agree on anything except that). I cannot find it avaible at a reasonable cost any longer. It seems to be OOP.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41m1T13kuhL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

One of the reasons that I bought the SONY Beethoven "Big Box", that 60 disk one, is that the 6 late sonatas were the Rosen performances. I know you can't get it for what I did at Amazon when it first came out ($27 and free shipping), but you can still get it and not only have those but several other good performances that should easily exceed in value what you pay for the box. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 21, 2008, 07:10:48 AM
Quote from: sam adams on July 21, 2008, 06:09:27 AM
I don't know if my taste is impeccable...

It was a joke.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 07:30:23 AM
Rosen is outstanding in the later sonatas, even better in the Diabellis (and based on a live performance I heard in 2003 or so when he was close to 80, he's still got it). The only two complete sets I have right now are Gulda and Heidsieck. Gulda is a keeper. Heidsieck does many fine things, but apparently can't resist the occasional bizarre voicing, phrasing, or tempo (e.g., the way he takes a huge ritard before the final Presto in the Appassionata!) - to the point where I feel I want to throw the set out the window. And of course there is the home piano and the Kalmus Urtext, which lets me hear the sonatas the way I want any time, even if 10x more sloppy than Schnabel at his sloppiest.

The only other complete set I'd really like to have is Annie Fischer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 21, 2008, 08:02:51 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2008, 07:07:38 AM
One of the reasons that I bought the SONY Beethoven "Big Box", that 60 disk one, is that the 6 late sonatas were the Rosen performances. I know you can't get it for what I did at Amazon when it first came out ($27 and free shipping), but you can still get it and not only have those but several other good performances that should easily exceed in value what you pay for the box. :)

8)
Really? I didn't even know the Rosen is in that box. Time to open the plastic wrapping on that one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sam adams on July 21, 2008, 12:06:01 PM
Quote from: George on July 21, 2008, 07:10:48 AM
It was a joke.  ;D


I know, I've bought too many hair metal albums in the past to take that comment seriously. ;D


Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2008, 07:07:38 AM
One of the reasons that I bought the SONY Beethoven "Big Box", that 60 disk one, is that the 6 late sonatas were the Rosen performances. I know you can't get it for what I did at Amazon when it first came out ($27 and free shipping), but you can still get it and not only have those but several other good performances that should easily exceed in value what you pay for the box. :)

8)

Thanks for the tip. I will check that out.


Quote from: Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 07:30:23 AM

The only other complete set I'd really like to have is Annie Fischer.

Good stuff. She has alot of "coiled intensity" if that makes any sense. Gulda and her make a good combo, his cycle is more rhythmically driven. I am thinking about the Kempff mono for my "lyrical" version of the cycle. If it lives up to the descriptions I have heard, then between those 3, I will have a cycle for every mood. Not forgetting the other guys for the occasional change-up. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 21, 2008, 12:12:17 PM
Quote from: sam adams on July 21, 2008, 12:06:01 PM

I know, I've bought too many hair metal albums in the past to take that comment seriously. ;D



LOL  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Philoctetes on July 21, 2008, 12:34:44 PM
I'm sure my two favorites have already been mentioned: Kuerti and Gould, but I also love Lortie and Feltsman, though I am unsure whether either of the last two did a complete set. I'd say that they are still worth seeking out and listening to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on December 08, 2008, 06:08:13 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 09:52:42 PM
Many times I have decided to order the complete van Oort's Mozart set, but have changed my mind at the last minute because I own Uchida, Pires (both), Badura-Skoda and Lubimov, and then think: hey, man, stop the madness!

On the other hand, I'm probably a little bit biased against Brautigam and I have not considered his Beethoven as an option: too fast and brutal for me, not my cup of tea.

Although I'm in HIP performances I prefer the  Andras Schiff oncoming sonata cycle, specially after to listen to his lectures on Beethoven piano sonatas:

http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

I believe that in Beethoven sonatas there is not yet a definitive period set, although even I have considered these two sets (but without any additional information):

- Badura-Skoda (Gramola, ADD, 69/70, 9 CDs):
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6207678?rk=home&rsk=hitlist

- and Bilson with his former students van Oort, Dütschler and others (Claves, DDD, 1996, 10 CDs):
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/8217873?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

Do you know some of them?

(probably we should change this conversation to the Beethoven sonatas thread)


You will probably comsider me totally mad, when I tell you, that I own 47 complete LvB Pianosonata sets and 8 incomplete (mostly because of the untimely passing of the performer), but there are a few other posters here, which display similar madness. Never-the-less I am beginning to put an end to my madness, and have stayed away from some of the newest ongoing complete-to-be sets. In this vein I had planned to skip A Schiffs LvB set, but just having acquired his Bach set (the new super bargain edition) - even if I am no great friend of Bach on piano - I must say, that I am impressed by this man´s musical and well conxidered interpretations, so now I am again considering his LvB set.

So I know the Badura-Skoda (Gramola, non period, played on a Bösendorfer piano) set as well as the Bilson-and-pupils set. I like both sets very much. Badura-Skoda is a sensitive player who manages to be stylish and expressive at the same time, leaving room for a sense of spontanity, without ever going too far, and his Gramola set is every bit as good as his OOP period set for Astreé, but of course the Astreé set is the most interesting for organological reasons.

The Bilson set is uneven, and as a whole not up to the level of Badura-Skoda. Van Oort is IMO one of the weaker parts of the set. Some criticize the fact, that these pianists sometimes add seemingly improvised embellishments and passing notes, but they do so with duly restraint and most often in the repetitions of Menuet´s and Scherzo´s and sometimes in slow movements. This "trait" of the recording does not bother me at all. For organological reasons this set is also interesting, since copies of many different types of fortepianos are used. The recorded sound is not always ideal, and sometimes only just acceptable.

I agree completely with your words about Brautigam.

The best period set so far, even if incomplete (5 volumes released by now), is in my opinion Paul Komen´s set on Globe. Rumours tell, that he is going to complete the set. He is an authorative and well balanced player, more objective than most of the competition, but far from dull like MelvinTan.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 08, 2008, 06:48:09 AM
Quote from: premont on December 08, 2008, 06:08:13 AMI must say, that I am impressed by this man´s musical and well conxidered interpretations, so now I am again considering his LvB set.



His set is very uneven, including sometimes in the same piece.  His recording of the last three sonatas exemplifies this.  His 109 is really quite good, his 110 not so much, and his 111 is so-so in the first movement and excellent in the second.  Of course, you may think otherwise, so perhaps buying it is the safer approach.

Would you happen to know the Dieter Zechlin cycle?  It's been reissued, and I'm thinking of getting it.  I haven't bought a new cycle in quite a few months . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on December 08, 2008, 11:21:43 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 08, 2008, 06:48:09 AM
His set is very uneven, including sometimes in the same piece.  His recording of the last three sonatas exemplifies this.  His 109 is really quite good, his 110 not so much, and his 111 is so-so in the first movement and excellent in the second.  Of course, you may think otherwise, so perhaps buying it is the safer approach.

Initially I decided to avoid the Schiff cycle because of your words about it in an earlier thread, and I haven´t heard one note from it so far. It is rather expensive, but since the CDs can be purchased individually or in pairs, I might perhaps ask you, which volumes you would recommend as being the most worthwile. Having listened to these, I might be able to decide, whether I want the complete cycle or not.

Quote from: Todd on December 08, 2008, 06:48:09 AM
Would you happen to know the Dieter Zechlin cycle?  It's been reissued, and I'm thinking of getting it.  I haven't bought a new cycle in quite a few months . . .

A number of years ago when much of the Dieter Zechlin cycle vas OOP, I was fortunate to get hold of a few of the volumes. I recall his style being rather straightforward and a bit "cold". And I discarded the CDs again (this was before I became completist in this area). I have recently acquired the rereleased set, but I am in great need of time to listen to it, since I have built up a listening queue approaching 1000 CDs during the last 1 -2 years. If you want, Zechlin may "vault over" the queue, but I shall not get the time to listen to him until next week.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 08, 2008, 06:48:31 PM
Quote from: premont on December 08, 2008, 06:08:13 AM
You will probably comsider me totally mad, when I tell you, that I own 47 complete LvB Pianosonata sets and 8 incomplete (mostly because of the untimely passing of the performer), but there are a few other posters here, which display similar madness. Never-the-less I am beginning to put an end to my madness, and have stayed away from some of the newest ongoing complete-to-be sets. In this vein I had planned to skip A Schiffs LvB set, but just having acquired his Bach set (the new super bargain edition) - even if I am no great friend of Bach on piano - I must say, that I am impressed by this man´s musical and well conxidered interpretations, so now I am again considering his LvB set.

So I know the Badura-Skoda (Gramola, non period, played on a Bösendorfer piano) set as well as the Bilson-and-pupils set. I like both sets very much. Badura-Skoda is a sensitive player who manages to be stylish and expressive at the same time, leaving room for a sense of spontanity, without ever going too far, and his Gramola set is every bit as good as his OOP period set for Astreé, but of course the Astreé set is the most interesting for organological reasons.


Thanks, premont, you are the right person to ask.
I have been thinking in Badura-Skoda for long time. I don't doubt his abilities, but the recording has almost forty years then your words are very useful.
At the moment I have three complete sets: Arrau, Alfredo Perl and Gulda, but I want something else.
It would be great to buy the Badura-Skoda's set in Astree, but is OOP, as you say.
BTW, two or three weeks ago, I got his Schubert set for Arcana (8 cds) in the Amazon Marketplace and now is in the mail.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on December 08, 2008, 06:52:27 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 08, 2008, 06:48:31 PM
Thanks, premont, you are the right person to ask.
I have been thinking in Badura-Skoda for long time. I don't doubt his abilities, but the recording has almost forty years then your words are very useful.
At the moment I have three complete sets: Arrau, Alfredo Perl and Gulda, but I want something else.
It would be great to buy the Badura-Skoda's set in Astree, but is OOP, as you say.
BTW, two or three weeks ago, I got his Schubert set for Arcana (8 cds) in the Amazon Marketplace and now is in the mail.
I'm lucky to have acquired Badura-Skoda's brilliant original set.  I cannot fathom why it has gone out of print; his renditions are exemplary.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 08, 2008, 07:36:01 PM
Quote from: premont on December 08, 2008, 11:21:43 AMIf you want, Zechlin may "vault over" the queue, but I shall not get the time to listen to him until next week.


No need to do that; the cold and straightforward part gives me an idea.  Given that his cycle is affordable, I may give it a go anyway.  His Schubert cycle, too.

As to Schiff, the best volumes are 2 and 5. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 31, 2008, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 30, 2008, 06:16:36 AM
My own top ten is roughly along these lines:

Annie Fischer
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)
Wilhelm Kempff (mono)
Robert Silverman
[Eric Heidsieck]
Emil Gilels
Artur Schnabel
[Russell Sherman]
[Claude Frank]


I have all of these, except the ones with brackets around them. The one in bold is on the way. I am very excited to hear this one. Earlier in the thread, you put him in the straightforward camp. I have none of the sets you list in this category, which makes me doubly excited to hear Silverman.

Quote(Mostly) straight-forward, no-nonsense playing: Claude Frank, Alfredo Perl, David Allen Wehr, Robert Silverman, Gerard Willems, Akiyoshi Sako
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 04, 2009, 07:32:11 AM
For those interested in hearing an obscure cycle, BRO has Abdel Rahman El Bacha's cycle on Forlane in for $45.  I find it mostly bland and mechanical, and in not especially great sound, but others might like it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2009, 08:09:02 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 04, 2009, 07:32:11 AM
For those interested in hearing an obscure cycle, BRO has Abdel Rahman El Bacha's cycle on Forlane in for $45.  I find it mostly bland and mechanical, and in not especially great sound, but others might like it.

Glad you mentioned that, Todd. I saw it the other night and was ignorant of it in every way. I thought I might ask you and then forgot to. Looks like forgetting may have been a good thing... :D

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on February 04, 2009, 09:51:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2009, 08:09:02 AM
Glad you mentioned that, Todd. I saw it the other night and was ignorant of it in every way. I thought I might ask you and then forgot to. Looks like forgetting may have been a good thing... :D

8)

There's also a complete Chopin set by him at BRO -- he must think he's the new Jeno Jando or something...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 20, 2009, 12:58:37 PM
Is this the place for Beethoven Sonatas??

If so:

Here's the beginning of a survey of all the LvB Sonata Cycles:


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 1, 1935 - 1969 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on May 20, 2009, 01:23:02 PM
Super, jlaurson!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on May 20, 2009, 11:48:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2009, 12:58:37 PM
Is this the place for Beethoven Sonatas??

If so:

Here's the beginning of a survey of all the LvB Sonata Cycles:


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 1, 1935 - 1969 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)


Since you asked... - I think your post will feel at home here. :)

BTW the Schnabel transfers on Regis are probably the ones that Italian Nuova Era did. I find the transfers on Naxos unsatisfactory, but of course the old EMI ones are abonimable. So I content myself with the noisy Pearls. Still, what we really need is a complete redo by EMI, which has the original masters and has finally learned how to handle historical recordings.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 21, 2009, 05:54:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2009, 12:58:37 PM
Is this the place for Beethoven Sonatas??  If so: Here's the beginning of a survey of all the LvB Sonata Cycles:

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 1, 1935 - 1969 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Thanks, Jens.  This is the place, and I look forward to reading your thoughts in future installments.  This is more a survey of recordings made and available (more or less) on CD, but not a comprehensive critical evaluation.

One correction to part one:  I believe Kempff's earlier mono recording is regarded by most as superior to the later stereo outing, and for its poetry, not rarity.  New sets are available immediately from Amazon--though at more than thrice the price of the stereo cycle!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2009, 06:38:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2009, 12:58:37 PM
Is this the place for Beethoven Sonatas??

Part 1, 1935 - 1969


Will there be a second part for the other complete cycles recorded by 1969?  I see that Barenboim's first cycle is missing, as is Gulda's second, as well as lesser known cycles from Maria Grinberg and Dieter Zechlin.  (The last was recorded before 1970, but I don't know if it was released complete before 1970.)  Also, Claude Frank, Paul Badura Skoda, and Takahiro Sonoda recorded most or all of their cycles (the first for Badura Skoda and the first of at least two cycles for Sonoda) in the 60s, though they may have spilled into 1970.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2009, 06:46:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2009, 12:58:37 PM
Is this the place for Beethoven Sonatas??

If so:

Here's the beginning of a survey of all the LvB Sonata Cycles:


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 1, 1935 - 1969 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
I think this thread is also rather more than the beginning of such a survey ...  :)
EDIT: Oh, dear, it isn't, but if you are able to sort threads by the folks who started them, a little list of Todd's threads would be such a beginning! A few (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1458.0.html) fine (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11908.0.html) examples (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7021.0.html).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: matti on May 21, 2009, 11:06:18 AM
Quote from: jwinter on February 04, 2009, 09:51:11 AM
he must think he's the new Jeno Jando or something...

Is there a consensus about Jando? Bland all-rounder? I think he is super.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2009, 11:25:16 AM
Quote from: matti on May 21, 2009, 11:06:18 AM
Is there a consensus about Jando? Bland all-rounder? I think he is super.
People don't talk about him much. I think he's a just-the-notes guy who plays everything as Beethoven intended, but I respect him a great deal for that and really enjoy his performances. Sometimes they are super indeed. Here's a guy who likes Jando and gives a really terrific analysis of the Moonlight Sonata (http://classicalmusicblog.com/2007/09/beethoven-sonata.html) but I do think much of the board finds J.J. "bland."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 21, 2009, 11:35:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2009, 11:25:16 AM
I think he's a just-the-notes guy who plays everything as Beethoven intended,

Well said. My impression of his Beethoven is that many play the sonatas with more passion and/or individuality and/or technical brilliance and/or depth. 

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2009, 11:42:35 AM
I don't know if I'd say Jando is bland.  He's undistinguished.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: matti on May 21, 2009, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: George on May 21, 2009, 11:35:08 AM
Well said. My impression of his Beethoven is that many play the sonatas with more passion and/or individuality and/or technical brilliance and/or depth. 



Yes. How spoiled we are. This guy plays most of the repertoire ever written for the piano almost perfectly, but  hedoes lack the innermost jeu de perle in one of those passages in the Waldstein, right?  ;D

He is a work horse, working as a joycehatto for Naxos, and doing a terrific job. A fantastic talent.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2009, 11:49:46 AM
Quote from: matti on May 21, 2009, 11:48:29 AMHe is a work horse



That's a reasonably accurate description.  I prefer music played by distinguished artists, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2009, 11:52:34 AM
For what it's worth, Jando expressed in an interview a few years ago his desire to do a new cycle (the first one was made in the mid-80s in inferior sound), but Naxos hasn't humored him.

Jando's Liszt is superb, sometimes (like the Sonatas of Petrarch and a couple of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, complete with his own goofy ornamentations) even near-definitive. And, although I am not yet a big Bartok fan, his Bartok recordings are highly acclaimed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: matti on May 21, 2009, 11:59:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 21, 2009, 11:49:46 AM


That's a reasonably accurate description.  I prefer music played by distinguished artists, though.

So do I. But I'm also impressed by his vast repertoire... and disturbed at my arrogance of rating a fantastic talent as mediocre because of all the other recordings available. See my point?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2009, 12:05:20 PM
Quote from: matti on May 21, 2009, 11:59:54 AMSee my point?


No, because Jando is not a fantastic talent.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 21, 2009, 12:06:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2009, 11:52:34 AM
Jando's Liszt is superb, sometimes (like the Sonatas of Petrarch and a couple of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, complete with his own goofy ornamentations) even near-definitive.

Penguin raved and raved about his Liszt, so much so that I ran out and bought his Years of Pilgrimage. I was not nearly as wowed as they were.  :-\ Luckily I have Berman and Gekic (incomplete) as well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: matti on May 21, 2009, 12:22:23 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 21, 2009, 12:05:20 PM

No, because Jando is not a fantastic talent.

There are artists like ABM and Celibidache who polish their art ad nauseam, and there are joycehattos like Neeme Järvi and Jando who just do what they are asked to do, and do it well. Nothing much to argue here, I just often prefer the sight readers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2009, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: matti on May 21, 2009, 12:22:23 PM
There are artists like ABM and Celibidache who polish their art ad nauseam, and there are joycehattos like Neeme Järvi and Jando who just do what they are asked to do, and do it well. Nothing much to argue here, I just often prefer the sight readers.
Okay, gotta say, I don't like Jarvi. But that's because I subscribed to his concerts in Detroit and had to sit through, live, the cold, unfeeling readings he gave music while sitting in his chair on the podium.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on May 21, 2009, 12:57:26 PM
Jando's problem, like many other artists, is that he isn't sufficiently selective.  For example, his Bach recordings are average at best; he clearly has nothing to say about the music that hasn't been said already.  Worse, there are many Bach artists of mainstream interpretations who do it better than Jando.  Then there are his Liszt recordings that display a wonderful grasp of the music's core.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2009, 01:06:06 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 21, 2009, 12:57:26 PM
Jando's problem, like many other artists, is that he isn't sufficiently selective.  For example, his Bach recordings are average at best; he clearly has nothing to say about the music that hasn't been said already.  Worse, there are many Bach artists of mainstream interpretations who do it better than Jando.  Then there are his Liszt recordings that display a wonderful grasp of the music's core.
Unfortunately, I think the pressing concern for Jando was not artistic selectivity but rather the fact that Naxos only pays its artists $1000-1500 per CD recorded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on May 21, 2009, 01:58:33 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2009, 01:06:06 PM
Unfortunately, I think the pressing concern for Jando was not artistic selectivity but rather the fact that Naxos only pays its artists $1000-1500 per CD recorded.

Well, he also had the blessings from Naxos to make all those recordings.  By my count, he's now recorded the music of more than 40 composers.  That's way too much for a pianist of limited horizons.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2009, 02:14:55 PM
Quote from: matti on May 21, 2009, 12:22:23 PMNothing much to argue here, I just often prefer the sight readers.


Nothing wrong with sight readers, but they aren't great artists.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2009, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 21, 2009, 04:40:06 PMthey simply had not been recorded completely by 1969.


Incorrect - Gulda 2, Zechlin, and Sonoda 1 (Denon) were all completed before the end of 1969 (I verified the recording dates), so they should be included in your list.  I'm pretty sure that Maria Grinburg's cycle was complete before 1969. 

The other I mentioned did appear to spill into 1970.

Last I counted, there were 64 complete cycles (65 if you count the Claves multi-artist cycle), not about 50, with another 13-14 underway.  If you're going to state or even imply that you're going to create a comprehensive list, you should probably do a bit more due diligence.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 21, 2009, 05:19:16 PM
Quote from: Que on May 20, 2009, 11:48:36 PM
I find the transfers on Naxos unsatisfactory, but of course the old EMI ones are abonimable. So I content myself with the noisy Pearls. Still, what we really need is a complete redo by EMI, which has the original masters and has finally learned how to handle historical recordings.

Q

I bought all the Beethoven Piano Sonatas volumes by Schnabel on Naxos Historical about a month ago and they sound just fine to me with good piano tone, based on recommendation from George.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 21, 2009, 06:30:00 PM
I have 6 complete sets and a good number of individual sonatas.  I am done with collecting Beethoven Piano Sonatas ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2009, 01:48:35 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2009, 01:06:06 PM
Unfortunately, I think the pressing concern for Jando was not artistic selectivity but rather the fact that Naxos only pays its artists $1000-1500 per CD recorded.
That much? I thought those guys at Naxos work for free.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 02:43:51 PM
This set by Annie Fischer is second to none IMO.

George convinced me to buy this set, which is the most expensive 9-CD set I have ever purchased ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qMAm0GheL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 22, 2009, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 02:43:51 PM
This set by Annie Fischer is second to none IMO.
I confess not to hear whatever it is that has made some of our denizens make this same claim ever since Todd pronounced it nonpareil.  I prefer the cycles of Kempff, Goode, and Kovacevich, but with 60+ complete cycles available, surely there's something for everyone.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 22, 2009, 04:37:14 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 02:43:51 PM
This set by Annie Fischer is second to none IMO.

Glad you enjoy it as much as I do, Stuart. My Music History professor in college suggested her Beethoven to me when I was just starting out collecting Classical CDs. Due to it's high price I hesitated for a long while. I got Barenboim's DG set, Gulda's Brilliant set first and finally (luckily) decided to treat myself to Annie Fischer's set one Christmas a few years back. I certainly didn't regret that decision.  :)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 22, 2009, 11:27:57 PM
As a set it is very consistent, no real clunkers and that's what makes it a great set (and is one of only 4 sets that I own). The paradox is that if I had to recommend a best performance for each of the 32, Annie would barely figure in the collection. I'd be interested to hear what others think of the set and name sonatas where she comes out top of the tree (or close to it).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 23, 2009, 04:25:52 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 22, 2009, 11:27:57 PM
I'd be interested to hear what others think of the set and name sonatas where she comes out top of the tree (or close to it).

G'day Holden!

I have already answered your first question, but as to your second one, here's what I have (I limited the list to sonatas where Annie is is either my top choice or tied with another pianist as my top choice):

Op. 2, Nos 1 and 2
Op. 27, No 1 and 2
Op. 31 Nos 1-3
Op. 54
Op. 57 Appassionata
Op. 81 Les Adieux
Op. 90
Op. 101
Op. 109
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 23, 2009, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: George on May 23, 2009, 04:25:52 AM
G'day Holden!

I have already answered your first question, but as to your second one, here's what I have (I limited the list to sonatas where Annie is is either my top choice or tied with another pianist as my top choice):

Op. 2, Nos 1 and 2
Op. 27, No 1 and 2
Op. 31 Nos 1-3
Op. 54
Op. 57 Appassionata
Op. 81 Les Adieux
Op. 90
Op. 101
Op. 109

G'day George

Now this is where the "different strokes..." paradigm comes in.

Op 2/1 yes, have to agree that she's up there

Op 2/2 - Hans Richter-Haaser (on LP so maybe this doesn't count)

Op 27/1 - Gilels

Op 27/2 Solomon

Op 31/1 - Rosita Renard

Op 31/2 - Richter, Hungerford

Op 31/3 Richter, Rubinstein

Op 54 - Richter (Annie also does well here)

Op 57 - Gilels 1961, Richter 1960, Rubinstein 1945

Op 81a - Gilels, Barenboim (EMI)

Op 90 - Moravec

Op 101 - Sokolov

Op 109 - Myra Hess


I also like Annie in Op 49/1&2
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 02:00:16 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 23, 2009, 01:35:11 PM
G'day George

Now this is where the "different strokes..." paradigm comes in.

Op 2/1 yes, have to agree that she's up there

Op 2/2 - Hans Richter-Haaser (on LP so maybe this doesn't count)

Op 27/1 - Gilels

Op 27/2 Solomon

Op 31/1 - Rosita Renard

Op 31/2 - Richter, Hungerford

Op 31/3 Richter, Rubinstein

Op 54 - Richter (Annie also does well here)

Op 57 - Gilels 1961, Richter 1960, Rubinstein 1945

Op 81a - Gilels, Barenboim (EMI)

Op 90 - Moravec

Op 101 - Sokolov

Op 109 - Myra Hess


I also like Annie in Op 49/1&2

Nice shootouts between Annie and all the men ...   ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 23, 2009, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 23, 2009, 01:35:11 PM
Op 27/1 - Gilels
Op 31/2 - Richter,
Op 54 - Richter
Op 57 - Richter 1960,

All of these are my #2 pick for these sonatas.  8)

Quote
Op 81a - Gilels

Tied with Annie for #1.

We aren't too far apart.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 24, 2009, 01:05:48 AM
Quote from: George on May 23, 2009, 02:01:09 PM
All of these are my #2 pick for these sonatas.  8)

Tied with Annie for #1.

We aren't too far apart.  :)

I didn't think we would be. You've got a lot of the LvB PS that I haven't but then again I probably have some that you don't either.

Once again it's a matter of taste. Mine has changed over the years when my first complete set was on LP from Barenboim and the majority of the sonatas were very well played. I stuck with this until I encountered Richter who made me totally re-evaluate my approach to these works and also made me realise that there were many ways of playing this man's music that were both valid and musical.

I quickly realised that no one cycle would be enough and I would have to search for individual performances of each of the 32 that would become definitive for me. An interpretation that I would prefer above all others. I am still on this quest and have nailed down some of the set. I will continue searching for the others.  The problem is that there is so much to hear! For example, I love a lot of what Gilels does yet I have not heard him in any of the early works or in Todd's watershed - the Op 31 trio.

My first LvB PS LP was the mono 8, 14, 23 by Kempff yet I've not heard any more from this set that everyone talks so highly about. Cycles by Nat, Heidsieck, Frank and others have been mentioned yet I've never heard a single work from these cycles.

So a forum like this is important to expose all of us to as much of the greatest set of piano works ever composed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2009, 05:22:16 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 24, 2009, 01:05:48 AM
Once again it's a matter of taste. Mine has changed over the years when my first complete set was on LP from Barenboim and the majority of the sonatas were very well played.

Interesting, Barenboim (DG) was my first complete set too.  

QuoteFor example, I love a lot of what Gilels does yet I have not heard him in any of the early works or in Todd's watershed - the Op 31 trio.

The Gilels incomplete set is wonderful. In fact, his set is the most consistent LvB set I have found.

Quote
So a forum like this is important to expose all of us to as much of the greatest set of piano works ever composed.

I fully agree, we are very lucky to have a place to share recommendations with each other and talk about the music that we love.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 24, 2009, 05:28:48 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2009, 05:22:16 AM
Interesting, Barenboim (DG) was my first compete set too. 

What did it compete with? ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2009, 05:33:46 AM
Quote from: premont on May 24, 2009, 05:28:48 AM
What did it compete with? ;D

;D

It's too early for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 24, 2009, 05:37:52 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2009, 05:33:46 AM
;D

It's too early for me.

Good to know, - I feared it was too late. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 24, 2009, 05:50:20 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 24, 2009, 01:05:48 AM
...there [are] many ways of playing this man's music that [are] both valid and musical.

...I would have to search for individual performances of each of the 32 that would become definitive for me.
Because I agree with the first statement, I do not agree with the second.  
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 05:59:47 AM
Quote from: premont on May 24, 2009, 05:37:52 AM
Good to know, - I feared it was too late. ;)

While Barenboim is an outstanding pianist, he does not belong in the same league as Gilels, Arrau or Richter IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2009, 06:02:47 AM
Quote from: premont on May 24, 2009, 05:37:52 AM
Good to know, - I feared it was too late. ;)

;D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 06:14:39 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 24, 2009, 01:05:48 AM

So a forum like this is important to expose all of us to as much of the greatest set of piano works ever composed.

Yeah, being part of this forum and in fine company with George have helped me launch my Manhattan Project for piano works in my collection.  From only one Beethoven Piano Sonatas (by Gilels) and two WTC's (by Hewitt and Gould), I now have 6 versions of the former and 10 versions of the latter plus many other piano works by Chopin (Nocturnes is my next collection project), Schubert and of course Bach.  I have also added Schnabel's Beethoven Piano Sonatas and Cortot's Chopin Piano Works to bolster my historical recordings collection, again at the recommendation by George.  With my total piano works on CD/LP pushing toward 1000, I am not doing too badly for someone whose primary interest has been baroque works for years ...    ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ChamberNut on May 24, 2009, 06:19:56 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2009, 05:22:16 AM
Interesting, Barenboim (DG) was my first complete set too.  


Mine too!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2009, 06:33:22 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 24, 2009, 06:19:56 AM
Mine too!  :)

We should start a club - "The Danny Boys."  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 24, 2009, 07:59:38 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 24, 2009, 06:19:56 AM
Mine too!  :)
Barenboim wasn't my first complete set, but he sure was my first introduction to the sonatas - that CD with Moonlight, Pathetique and Appassionata...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on May 24, 2009, 08:02:26 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2009, 06:33:22 AM
We should start a club - "The Danny Boys."  ;D
As opposed to the Annie boys?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 08:19:00 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 24, 2009, 07:59:38 AM
Barenboim wasn't my first complete set, but he sure was my first introduction to the sonatas - that CD with Moonlight, Pathetique and Appassionata...

I only have his single DG disc - Sonatas - Moonlight, Pathetique, etc. and doubt I will bother to get the complete set ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on May 24, 2009, 08:29:25 AM
Anyone know how close Moravec came to completing the cycle? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 24, 2009, 08:47:06 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 06:14:39 AMYeah, being part of this forum and in fine company with George have helped me launch my Manhattan Project for piano works in my collection.  From only one Beethoven Piano Sonatas (by Gilels) and two WTC's (by Hewitt and Gould), I now have 6 versions of the former and 10 versions of the latter plus many other piano works by Chopin (Nocturnes is my next collection project), Schubert and of course Bach.  I have also added Schnabel's Beethoven Piano Sonatas and Cortot's Chopin Piano Works to bolster my historical recordings collection, again at the recommendation by George.  With my total piano works on CD/LP pushing toward 1000, I am not doing too badly for someone whose primary interest has been baroque works for years ...    ;D
My mother, a quilter, has a room largely devoted to storage of cloth collected over many years for use in her projects.  She quilted a sign that hangs over the doorway:  "Who dies with the most fabric, wins."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2009, 08:48:36 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 24, 2009, 08:29:25 AM
Anyone know how close Moravec came to completing the cycle? 

Not very close, I'm afraid. He has unfortunately only recorded 5 of the 32.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 08:54:39 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2009, 08:48:36 AM
Not very close, I'm afraid. He has unfortunately only recorded 5 of the 32.

And time is running out on him ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2009, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 08:54:39 AM
And time is running out on him ...

True.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 09:18:56 AM
Has Sokolov recorded any of the sonatas?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2009, 09:54:01 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 09:18:56 AM
Has Sokolov recorded any of the sonatas?

He certainly has and they are VERY good I think There's a CD with Opus 7 and Opus 101. And this DVD -- which has the Pastoral and Opus 14/2 and Opus 22 --  is outstanding.

There must be bootlegs of other sonatas around. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:05:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 24, 2009, 09:54:01 AM
There must be bootlegs of other sonatas around. Anyone know?

There's quite a lot of his stuff around; Operashare seems to have a fair bit IIRC.

Whilst we're on the subject of pianists completing cycles of the 32, Deacon (RMCR) keeps going on about Pollini having two cycles 'locked in the vaults' with DG, but refuses to allow them to be released. Whilst I think his 'star' has faded a bit of late, would be interesting to hear what he has done. His 2cd of late Beethoven is quite special IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2009, 10:08:20 AM
Quote from: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:05:38 AM
There's quite a lot of his stuff around; Operashare seems to have a fair bit IIRC.

Whilst we're on the subject of pianists completing cycles of the 32, Deacon (RMCR) keeps going on about Pollini having two cycles 'locked in the vaults' with DG, but refuses to allow them to be released. Whilst I think his 'star' has faded a bit of late, would be interesting to hear what he has done. His 2cd of late Beethoven is quite special IMO.

Interesting to say his star is fading -- I was really impressed by his recent CD of Mozart Concertos -- PC24 and another (PC13 I think)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2009, 10:13:18 AM
Quote from: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:05:38 AMWhilst I think his 'star' has faded a bit of late...

He's busy becoming a grand seigneur. Not quite the same as fading. Hearing him in recital is still an event I'd leave any other concert in the dust for.

(And his late LvB might simply never be surpassed. Op.111 with Pollini is like reading Dr.Faustus in 28 (or so) minutes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 24, 2009, 10:08:20 AM
Interesting to say his star is fading -- I was really impressed by his recent CD of Mozart Concertos -- PC24 and another (PC13 I think)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a 'Pollini lover', but compared to his rather special Chopin recital from EMI, as well as hid DG recordings from the 70's etc. I don't feel he is quite the pianist he once was. IMO of course...

Haven't heard the above recordings though....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 10:23:09 AM
Quote from: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm a 'Pollini lover', but compared to his rather special Chopin recital from EMI, as well as hid DG recordings from the 70's etc. I don't feel he is quite the pianist he once was. IMO of course...

Haven't heard the above recordings though....

I have heard the same about Yehudi Menuhin, that his early recordings were much better than his mid-career recordings.  Is that possible that a virtuoso loses his/her virtuosity in mid to late career?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2009, 10:24:59 AM
Quote from: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm a 'Pollini lover', but compared to his rather special Chopin recital from EMI, as well as hid DG recordings from the 70's etc. I don't feel he is quite the pianist he once was. IMO of course...

Me too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2009, 11:21:38 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 10:23:09 AM
 

I have heard the same about Yehudi Menuhin, that his early recordings were much better than his mid-career recordings.  Is that possible that a virtuoso loses his/her virtuosity in mid to late career?

Yes, of course. (Especially with violinists [all but Milstein, actually], but with pianists, too.] But in this case, I should think that's not what is going on.. Pollini live will still make your jaw drop. Menuhin live late in his life made you cringe and/or cry with the sad memories of what once had been. Judging based on recordings can slightly skew one's view. And if you don't know his late LvB, you [anybody] should explore. Un-f^&*(-believable stuff. Vertical Beethoven, not horizontal. Climbing mountains with Ludwig.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31PEHM39A0L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
LvB, Sonatas 28-32, Maurizio Pollini (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GXB/goodmusicguide-20)
- DG Originals

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 11:53:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 24, 2009, 11:21:38 AM
Yes, of course. (Especially with violinists [all but Milstein, actually], but with pianists, too.] But in this case, I should think that's not what is going on.. Pollini live will still make your jaw drop. Menuhin live late in his life made you cringe and/or cry with the sad memories of what once had been. Judging based on recordings can slightly skew one's view. And if you don't know his late LvB, you [anybody] should explore. Un-f^&*(-believable stuff. Vertical Beethoven, not horizontal. Climbing mountains with Ludwig.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31PEHM39A0L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
LvB, Sonatas 28-32, Maurizio Pollini (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GXB/goodmusicguide-20)
- DG Originals



Afflicted with senility or even dementia?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 24, 2009, 12:33:19 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 09:18:56 AM
Has Sokolov recorded any of the sonatas?

Yes, they include:

Op 7*
Op 10/3
Op 14 Nos 1& 2*
Op 28*
Op 31/2*
Op 90 (LP only)
Op 101*
Op 106*
Op110
Op 111

I've asterisked the ones I have.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 24, 2009, 12:35:15 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 24, 2009, 06:19:56 AM
Mine too!  :)

Mine was the EMI set (LP) which I think is vastly better than the DG (which I owned briefly waiting for the EMI to appear on CD)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ChamberNut on May 24, 2009, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 24, 2009, 12:35:15 PM
Mine was the EMI set (LP) which I think is vastly better than the DG (which I owned briefly waiting for the EMI to appear on CD)

Oops, I was mistaken.  It is the Barenboim EMI CD set that I have, not the DG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 24, 2009, 06:44:43 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 24, 2009, 01:57:38 PM
...and preferably without attitude...

You'll get no respite here. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2009, 10:14:43 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 24, 2009, 12:33:19 PM
Yes, they include:

Op 7*
Op 10/3
Op 14 Nos 1& 2*
Op 28*
Op 31/2*
Op 90 (LP only)
Op 101*
Op 106*
Op110
Op 111

I've asterisked the ones I have.


Do you have a links to the late ones --110 and 111?


Quote from: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:05:38 AM
There's quite a lot of his stuff around; Operashare seems to have a fair bit IIRC.


How do I break in  to Operashare?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on May 24, 2009, 11:22:36 PM
Quote from: Peregrine on May 24, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm a 'Pollini lover', but compared to his rather special Chopin recital from EMI, as well as hid DG recordings from the 70's etc. I don't feel he is quite the pianist he once was. IMO of course...
Quote from: George on May 24, 2009, 10:24:59 AM
Me too.
Well.
His two recent Mozart PC discs with VPO are outstanding (and recorded live, incidentally).
On topic: His also quite recent LvB op. 2 is a must hear. Cowwebs out!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 24, 2009, 11:46:01 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 24, 2009, 10:14:43 PM
Do you have a links to the late ones --110 and 111?


How do I break in  to Operashare?

From a quick tour of Google, Sokolov also has these PS in his repertoire some of which have been recorded.

Op 2/2
Op2/3
Op 22
Op27/1
Op 31/1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 25, 2009, 01:53:29 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 21, 2009, 05:54:20 AM
Thanks, Jens.  This is the place, and I look forward to reading your thoughts in future installments.  This is more a survey of recordings made and available (more or less) on CD, but not a comprehensive critical evaluation.

Correct, although I will make asides to sets I have (a few, but no more than your grandmother fabrics) or know something about.

Incidentally, does anyone have cover-art for some of the OOP cycles?

For Robert Riefling (Valois) specifically? That would be most appreciated.

Ditto exact dates (taken from the actual recordings, where possible) on Riefling's sonatas and when Ciani's earliest sonatas of his set were recorded.


Edit: It's up now, Riefling's cover art be da&#ed (for the time being).

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 2, 1967 - 1975
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html)



   Maria Grinberg
1964 - 1967 - Melodiya

   Friedrich Gulda II
1964 - 1967 - Amadeo

   Dieter Zechlin
1960 - 1969 (?) - Eterna / Berlin Classics

   Daniel Barenboim I
1965 - 1969 - EMI

   Robert Riefling
1960 - 1970 (?) - Valois

   Claude Frank
1967 - 1969 - RCA Victrola / Music & Arts

   Paul Badura-Skoda I
1969 - 1970 - Gramola

   Dino Ciani
196? - 1970 - Dynamic

   Eric Heidiseck
1967 - 1973 - EMI

   Anton Kuerti
1974 - 1975 - Analekta

Any corrections (on dates, for example, and preferably, maybe without attitude) most welcome.




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 25, 2009, 04:43:13 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 24, 2009, 11:22:36 PM
Well.
His two recent Mozart PC discs with VPO are outstanding (and recorded live, incidentally).
On topic: His also quite recent LvB op. 2 is a must hear. Cowwebs out!

Are you familiar with Pollini's Chopin Nocturnes?  Your opinion?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513CK73C2DL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 25, 2009, 05:27:10 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 25, 2009, 04:43:13 AM
...familiar with Pollini's Chopin Nocturnes?  Your opinion?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513CK73C2DL._SS500_.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/great-pianists-great-expectations.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/great-pianists-great-expectations.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on May 25, 2009, 05:29:20 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2009, 08:48:36 AM
Not very close, I'm afraid. He has unfortunately only recorded 5 of the 32.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 25, 2009, 06:37:21 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 25, 2009, 05:29:20 AM
Thanks!

Morning, Bill.  It is a shame, as Moravec is unlikely to finish any Beethoven Sonatas project given his advanced age ... 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rod Corkin on May 25, 2009, 11:48:30 AM
Quote from: Expresso on November 14, 2007, 06:11:18 AM
I'm thinking about buying a complete set of these sonatas. I already have a cheap 10 CD set with Schnabel and some individual sonatas by other pianists.
Now i'm looking for a set with good better sound quality than Schnabel.

Which one should i check? Gulda?Barenboim?
There is a set with Gulda on eloquence records and another on brilliant. Any differences on those two?
The last complete set on modern piano I bought was by Bernard Roberts, but that was years and years ago. If you open minded enough to consider fortepiano renditions (the only renditions I listen to these days) Ronald Brautigam is currently covering all the sonatas and has produced about 6 volumes so far. There are other fortepiano sets but they are out of the catalogue now. If you want to hear samples from the fortepiano sets there are many at my site.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2009, 07:29:19 AM
Any of you Annie Fischer LvB Cycle Owners:

Could one of you give me the exact recording dates, by chance?

As far as I know she started in 1976... and still fuzzed around as late as 1992. But to what extend is that latter date meaningful? Studio work? Patching? Whole pieces recorded? Is the de facto finishing point of that cycle not much earlier?

Thanks & best,

jfl
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 26, 2009, 08:16:08 AM
Jens--per the booklet notes with the Hungaroton set, work on the recordings began in the spring of 1977.  Those notes don't specify the final recording date, but do state that work on the recorded material continued until 1995, shortly after her death.  The method is of interest.  Per the notes:
QuoteShe did not play as at a recital, that is a whole work at a time but, in the search for perfection, she broke up the work into small units which she than aimed to combine.  These days most performing artists have long abandoned such a method, preferring the impetus of performance to a perfection which is often accompanied by a certain sterility.  [...]  Work on the stored material ceased in the nineties, albeit minor repairs of a tchnical nature still proved necessary.  The final touches only took place in 1995, in connection with the present issue, after Annie Fischer had passed away.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2009, 08:46:01 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 26, 2009, 08:16:08 AM
Jens--per the booklet notes with the Hungaroton set, work on the recordings began in the spring of 1977.  Those notes don't specify the final recording date, but do state that work on the recorded material continued until 1995, shortly after her death.  The method is of interest.  Per the notes:

Thanks, much!

I had read something like that...

Pretty much leaves it impossible to venture what the exact time frame was, doesn't it? Maybe I'll leave it open-ended as "90s" for now.
At least I can correct the starting date.

Anyone know the recording date of this Jeno Jando disc (which I reckon must be the last of his Beethoven Sonata discs)?

BEETHOVEN: Piano Sonatas Nos. 14, 21 and 23     8.550294

Naxos' website does not provide, unfortunately.

Abdel Rahman El Bacha was 1990 - 1993 (this is based on the release dates) or did he start earlier?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 26, 2009, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2009, 08:46:01 AM
Thanks, much!

I had read something like that...

Pretty much leaves it impossible to venture what the exact time frame was, doesn't it? Maybe I'll leave it open-ended as "90s" for now.
At least I can correct the starting date.
You're welcome.  The means by which these recordings were produced should raise doubts about their validity as "performance documents," but that is a separate issue from their value as beloved interpretations.  Certainly it was an interesting experiment, carrying the splicing of different takes to the nth degree.  I'm not sure how much all this affects my personal response to the recordings, but don't doubt that it has some effect--along with stubborn resistance to idol worship, PR gimmickry, and following the herd.  To me the set is like many others by such diverse and gifted pianists like Brendel, Arrau, Buchbinder, Gulda, and so on--beautiful, compelling music, consistently well-played--remarkable achievements that I can admire but that just don't grab my soul the way that certain other pianists' cycles so often do.  YMMV, of course, as it should---after all, we're all at different places on the path, arriving from different starting points, and with a variety of different experiences en route that have shaped our perspectives and our responses.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 26, 2009, 10:14:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2009, 08:46:01 AM
Anyone know the recording date of this Jeno Jando disc (which I reckon must be the last of his Beethoven Sonata discs)?

BEETHOVEN: Piano Sonatas Nos. 14, 21 and 23     8.550294
The Jando cycle was commenced in 1987 with 8, 14, 21, and 23, so that is actually the first disc! The final recording was made in January 1989, of the Sonata No. 15 and a whole stack of WoO sonatas and fragments. These are recording dates, not release dates (which were 1992-94).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 26, 2009, 10:14:52 AM
The Jando cycle was commenced in 1987 with 8, 14, 21, and 23, so that is actually the first disc! The final recording was made in January 1989, of the Sonata No. 15 and a whole stack of WoO sonatas and fragments. These are recording dates, not release dates (which were 1992-94).

PER-FECT! Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

That makes the third batch (77-90):

Brendel II,
Binns (anyone know the beginning of this LP-only cycle? The cycle was finished by 1977, afaik.
Buchbinder [thanks for reminding me, DavidRoss! Nearly missed that one. Have you got recording dates for that one?]
Ashkenazy
Nikolayeva (again: anyone know when this was commenced? Finished in '83, if I am not mistaken.)
Barenboim II
Roberts
Jando
Arrau II


Edit P.S.  remembered about the Buchbinder right after shooting off my surprised response. I even have it in my excel file of complete cycles (except with very wrong dates).

61 cycles, excluding incompletes like Gieseking, Gilels, Gould, Kempff-pre-I and excluding under-way (or just finished, in the case of Schiff) cycles like:

Oppitz, Kodama, Schiff, Bräutigam, Pollini, Uchida, Hewitt, Korstick
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 26, 2009, 11:29:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
screeching breaks sound, followed by surprised chicken sound: baw-bawk baaaawk? Buchbinder has a LvB Sonata cycle? Do tell, because that one I have certainly missed, if there is one.
Yep.  A digital cycle on Teldec, recorded 1980-82, the first complete cycle I bought and still one of my faves, more classically "objective" than romantically "interpretive."  Long OOP--heck if I know why!  Two Amazon mkt sellers have used sets for $259.  Image below:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21HR8WJQTDL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 26, 2009, 05:33:27 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 26, 2009, 11:29:11 AM
Yep.  A digital cycle on Teldec, recorded 1980-82, the first complete cycle I bought and still one of my faves, more classically "objective" than romantically "interpretive."  Long OOP--heck if I know why!  Two Amazon mkt sellers have used sets for $259.  Image below:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21HR8WJQTDL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)



WarnerMusic may be re-issuing the set soon ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 27, 2009, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
,Nikolayeva (again: anyone know when this was commenced? Finished in '83, if I am not mistaken.)
,

You are. Her set was recorded live at the Moscow Conservatoire from january 1984 to april 1984, according to the booklet of the Scribendum release from 2004.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2009, 10:42:32 AM
Quote from: premont on May 27, 2009, 09:47:02 AM
You are. Her set was recorded live at the Moscow Conservatoire from january 1984 to april 1984, according to the booklet of the Scribendum release from 2004.

Thank you very much! (Incidentally Jed Distler claims 1983, referring to her live Olympia cycle (same one, presumably, but issued piece-meal?). May well be where I got the information from in the first place... but any one know where the discrepancy might come from?)

I also read the same claim (Moscow, live, 83) as regards the Deutsche Schallplatten Berlin licenses (from the Olympia stuff). Perhaps Olympia used the wrong date? (Or perhaps Scribendium does?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 27, 2009, 11:18:19 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 27, 2009, 10:42:32 AM
,I also read the same claim (Moscow, live, 83) as regards the Deutsche Schallplatten Berlin licenses (from the Olympia stuff). Perhaps Olympia used the wrong date? (Or perhaps Scribendium does?)

Well, the Scribendum notification looks very reliable, presenting individual dates for the recordings, e.g. Sonatas 1,2,3 & 4 recorded on the 10th of January 1984, Sonatas 5,6,7 & 8 on the 11th of January 1984. The cycle was, as I stated above, recorded live during a series of recitals containing exclusively the Beethoven Sonatas.The Scribendum release was of course licenced from Melodiya.

But the worst thing about the set is,that it is totally unlistenable, due to lots of wrong notes, and the fact, that she looses the thread all too often. Definitely not recommended.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 27, 2009, 11:22:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 27, 2009, 10:42:32 AM
Incidentally Jed Distler claims 1983..

Mind you, semi-professional and even professional reviewers are often wrong. 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 27, 2009, 11:26:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 25, 2009, 01:53:29 AM
Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 2, 1967 - 1975
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html)

Just read your excellent writeup of Gulda's second set, Jens. I very much agree with what you write about his second traversal of the 32 sonatas. Like you, I find his set to be remarkably enjoyable, brisk and consistent. I also admire Backhaus's second set but consider Gulda's set to be my go-to set these days. This is something that changed recently, but Gulda's set has always impressed me from the very first listen. His technical finish and clear vision of each work is impressive.    

I look forward to reading about more cycles as you add info.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2009, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: George on May 27, 2009, 11:26:22 AM
Just read your excellent writeup of Gulda's second set, Jens. I very much agree with what you write about his second traversal of the 32 sonatas. Like you, I find his set to be remarkably enjoyable, brisk and consistent. I also admire Backhaus's second set but consider Gulda's set to be my go-to set these days. This is something that changed recently, but Gulda's set has always impressed me from the very first listen. His technical finish and clear vision of each work is impressive.    

I look forward to reading about more cycles as you add info.

Don't get your hopes up, though.  ;)

It's not intended to be a review survey... of the 70 cycles I only have a certain number and many I know nothing about, not even hearsay. It's just to show what's out there... be a one-stop for anyone interested in knowing their options and what they can get where. (Simplified through the four Amazon countries with links.)

It just happens so that I know a tad about the earlier, classic cycles... and Gulda--Beethoven in Tennis shoes--could not whiz by un-commented upon.  ;D

Quote from: premont on May 27, 2009, 11:18:19 AM
Well, the Scribendum notification looks very reliable, presenting individual dates for the recordings, e.g. Sonatas 1,2,3 & 4 recorded on the 10th of January 1984, Sonatas 5,6,7 & 8 on the 11th of January 1984. The cycle was, as I stated above, recorded live during a series of recitals containing exclusively the Beethoven Sonatas.The Scribendum release was of course licenced from Melodiya.

But the worst thing about the set is,that it is totally unlistenable, due to lots of wrong notes, and the fact, that she looses the thread all too often. Definitely not recommended.

I might go with 83-84, just to be on the save side. :-) Democracy, rather than meritocracy, of facts. Perhaps she played a few notes in December, after all. I take it that she didn't repeat the cycle twice within so short a time; once Melodiya recording, once Olympia (who probably licensed it from Melodiya??)?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 03:32:22 AM
Does anyone have cover-art for some of the OOP cycles?

For one of the Robert Riefling (Valois) LPs specifically? Or for one of the Malcolm Binns LPs. (Was that ever out as an LP set??)

Quote
Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 3, 1977 - 199019841989
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)


Alfred Brendel II
1970 - 1977 - Philips (analog)

   Malcolm Binns
19?? - 1977 (?) - L'Oiseau-Lyre

   Annie Fischer
1976 - 1978* - Hungaroton
(When I speak of a "cult following" here, yes, that's you, GMG-Fischerites.  ;D)

   John Lill
1975 - 1980 - ASV (Brilliant, Sanctuary)

   Vladimir Ashkenazy
1971 - 1981 - Decca

   Rudolf Buchbinder
1979 - 1981 - Telefunken / Telarc

   Daniel Barenboim II
1981 - 1984 - Deutsche Grammophon

   Tatiana Nikolayeva
1984 - Melodyia (Olympia (UK), DS Berlin, Scribendium)

   Bernard Roberts
1981 - 1984 - Nimbus

   Jenő Jandó
1987 - 1989 - Naxos

   Claudio Arrau II
1962* / 1984 - 1990 - Philips


Jenő Jandó
1987 - 1989 - Naxos

Nevermind... I've had an excel-file SNAFU. I'll have to redo that list for lack of inclusion of Barenboim and Lill. Will give Arrau and Jando the boot to make room.

Update: Now it's better. I hope.

Update: Added Jando to get to 1989 and be able to start in 1990 with the next batch. That's when things will start getting complicated, in any case. No cycle finished between 1984 and 1989, though??? Shocking.
   

Any corrections (on dates, for example, and preferably, maybe without attitude) most welcome.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 29, 2009, 06:05:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 03:32:22 AM
Any corrections (on dates, for example, and preferably, maybe without attitude) most welcome.
;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 11:53:51 PM
Anyone have any information on an alleged LvB sonata cycle that

Michael Steinberg
has purportedly recorded on "Elysium"?

I cannot find any (!) information to confirm that... which is rare and makes me wary.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 05:37:06 AM
The same Michael Steinberg who writes (wrote) program notes for SFS & BSO and who now lives in Edina, MN?  Maybe Angry Baby Dave can pop over and ask him....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 06:17:23 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 05:37:06 AM
The same Michael Steinberg who writes (wrote) program notes for SFS & BSO and who now lives in Edina, MN?  Maybe Angry Baby Dave can pop over and ask him....

He certainly has been living in the "left" cities - Boston, SF and now MNPLS ...

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on May 30, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
Talking about complete Beethoven cycles, one of Todd's favorites, the Robert Silverman cycle is being remastered for re-release either late in the summer or early in the fall. As it was supposed to be top quality sound originally, I can't imagine why they would be remastering it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 30, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
Talking about complete Beethoven cycles, one of Todd's favorites, the Robert Silverman cycle is being remastered for re-release either late in the summer or early in the fall. As it was supposed to be top quality sound originally, I can't imagine why they would be remastering it.
It was top quality sound, engineered by Stereophile's editor, John Atkinson, in high resolution 24-bit/88.2kHz but mixed down to 16-bit/44.1kHz for the CD release on Orpheum Masters.  Perhaps it's being re-released in high-res? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 01:44:32 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 01:36:37 PM
It was top quality sound, engineered by Stereophile's editor, John Atkinson, in high resolution 24-bit/88.2kHz but mixed down to 16-bit/44.1kHz for the CD release on Orpheum Masters.  Perhaps it's being re-released in high-res? 

Or maybe they are compressing it and adding some "loudness" for your MP3 type player.(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0011.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 01:47:21 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 01:44:32 PM
Or maybe they are compressing it and adding some "loudness" for your MP3 type player.(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0011.gif)
Love the emoticon, Bill!  Got one making the sign of the cross to ward off vampires, too?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 01:49:03 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 01:47:21 PM
Love the emoticon, Bill!  Got one making the sign of the cross to ward off vampires, too?

Done:

(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:JJUl_Wa6zDuq6M:http://www.picturesof.net/_images_300/Vampire_Smiley_Cowering_In_Front_Silver_Cross_Royalty_Free_Clipart_Picture_081017-130798-791009.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2009, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 30, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
Talking about complete Beethoven cycles, one of Todd's favorites, the Robert Silverman cycle is being remastered for re-release either late in the summer or early in the fall. As it was supposed to be top quality sound originally, I can't imagine why they would be remastering it.

Me neither.

OTOH, labeling a CD "remastered" seems to be the industries way of misleading consumers into thinking it will be better than the original. My experience is that much more often than not, remastered just means louder and/or with noise reduction. Rarely better than the original. :-\  
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 01:52:55 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 01:49:03 PM
Done:

(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:JJUl_Wa6zDuq6M:http://www.picturesof.net/_images_300/Vampire_Smiley_Cowering_In_Front_Silver_Cross_Royalty_Free_Clipart_Picture_081017-130798-791009.jpg)
Ask and ye shall receive...you're amazing, Bill!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 01:58:37 PM
I just read here, or somewhere, on a thread about the mono Kempff set.  I was torn between the stereo and mono a number of years back before I had even a set of the cycle (by anyone).  I remember kind of plying it extra safe grabbing the stereo set and then recall you posting not too long after the fact David that you had just acquired the mono.  You posted that you were loving it thoroughly as you drove to work a bright and beautiful California day.  My envy of that day of your listening continues at this end.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2009, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 01:58:37 PM
I just read here, or somewhere, on a thread about the mono Kempff set.  I was torn between the stereo and mono a number of years back before I had even a set of the cycle (by anyone).  I remember kind of plying it extra safe grabbing the stereo set and then recall you posting not too long after the fact David that you had just acquired the mono.  You posted that you were loving it thoroughly as you drove to work a bright and beautiful California day.  My envy of that day of your listening continues at this end.

imprtcds at amazon.com still has new copies for $52.  >:D I got mine this week. They delivered it in 4 days. Nice packaging, slim box with paper sleeves and excellent liner notes.
You know you want to! (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000012XC/ref=sr_1_olp_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1243721097&sr=8-2) (http://www.emofaces.com/en/buddy-icons/a/angel-and-devil-on-shoulder-buddy-icon.gif)

BTW, I have read that the mastering that you have of the stereo set is much better than the original.  
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 02:08:12 PM
Quote from: George on May 30, 2009, 02:03:43 PM
imprtcds at amazon.com still has new copies for $52.  >:D I got mine this week.

BTW, I have read that the mastering that you have of the stereo set is much better than the original. 

Yes.  I have heard the same about the set I have from the Complete Beethoven Edition.  Still may not be the Kempff set to have though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2009, 02:12:18 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 02:08:12 PM
Yes.  I have heard the same about the set I have from the Complete Beethoven Edition.  Still may not be the Kempff set to have though.

I haven't read one reviewer that prefers the later set, though many still praise it. I had never seen the mono that cheap, so I had a good excuse to grab it this time.  ;D

(I edited my previous post BTW)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2009, 02:14:56 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 01:58:37 PM
I just read here, or somewhere, on a thread about the mono Kempff set.  I was torn between the stereo and mono a number of years back before I had even a set of the cycle (by anyone).  I remember kind of plying it extra safe grabbing the stereo set and then recall you posting not too long after the fact David that you had just acquired the mono.  You posted that you were loving it thoroughly as you drove to work a bright and beautiful California day.  My envy of that day of your listening continues at this end.

If it makes you feel better at all: The "Les Adieux" and "Hammerklavier" on the mono set are easily bested by the stereo version. Don't know what happened during the last mvt. of op.81a, but that's a harsh moment. But op.79, 90, and almost all the early sonatas are sublime.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2009, 02:16:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2009, 02:14:56 PM
If it makes you feel better at all: The "Les Adieux" and "Hammerklavier" on the mono set are easily bested by the stereo version.

I'd go so far as to say that Op. 101, 106, 109, 110 and 111 are all better on the stereo set.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 02:18:57 PM
Thanks for the info.  Tough call.  There are a number of LvB Serkin discs that want to grab before the mono Kempff cycle.  Great price though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2009, 02:23:39 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 02:18:57 PM
Thanks for the info.  Tough call.  There are a number of LvB Serkin discs that want to grab before the mono Kempff cycle.  Great price though.

At least with Serkin there is no question which route to go: EARLY, EARLY, EARLY!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2009, 02:25:08 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2009, 02:23:39 PM
At least with Serkin there is no question which route to go: EARLY, EARLY, EARLY!!!

Indeed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 03, 2009, 11:02:31 AM
Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 4, 1990 - 1996
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

       Claudio Arrau II
1984* - 1990 - Philips France (Arrau Heritage Edition)

   Michaël Lévinas
1984 - 1991 - Ades

   Abdel Rahman El Bacha
1984 - 1993 - Forlane

   John O'Conor
198? - 1993 - Telarc

   Robert Benz
1988 - 1995 - Thorofon

   Richard Goode
1989 - 1993 - Nonesuch

   Ian Hobson
1992 - 1996 - Zephyr

   Alfredo Perl
1992- 1996 - Oehms Classics

   Alfred Brendel III
1992 - 1996 - Philips (digital)

   Malcom Bilson & Students
199? - 1996 - Claves





Part 1: 1935 - 1969 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Part 2: 1967 - 1974 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html)
Part 3: 1977 - 1989 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)

If you have additional information about recording dates, availability, cover art -- or corrections and additions -- your input is much appreciated.

This survey is meant to list all complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas and their availability in different markets, not to review them.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 03, 2009, 11:17:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 03, 2009, 11:02:31 AM
If you have additional information about recording dates, availability, cover art -- or corrections and additions -- your input is much appreciated.

I notice that the part 4 links don't appear yet on the bottom of the page.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 03, 2009, 12:19:10 PM
I would add

Michael Houston recorded between 1991? and 1995

Morrison Trust records

http://www.trustcds.com/pages/catalogue1.html    (see bottom of page).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 03, 2009, 12:51:56 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 03, 2009, 12:19:10 PM
I would add

Michael Houston recorded between 1991? and 1995

Morrison Trust records

http://www.trustcds.com/pages/catalogue1.html    (see bottom of page).

Thanks for the info. I have Houston down for the following dates:

1995      -   1997

But I'll check if that's wrong. He'll be included in the next tranche one way or the other.

Quote from: George on June 03, 2009, 11:17:16 AM
I notice that the part 4 links don't appear yet on the bottom of the page.

The link is (in) the title.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 03, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 03, 2009, 12:51:56 PM
The link is (in) the title.

I should have been clearer. I mean at the bottom of each page (part 1, 2 and 3) there are links to the other three pages, but not to part 4.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 03, 2009, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: George on June 03, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
I should have been clearer. I mean at the bottom of each page (part 1, 2 and 3) there are links to the other three pages, but not to part 4.
Oh, yeah... I've not gotten around to that. Lazy, I am. :-)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 05:11:35 PM
Quote from: George on May 27, 2009, 11:26:22 AM
Just read your excellent writeup of Gulda's second set, Jens. I very much agree with what you write about his second traversal of the 32 sonatas. Like you, I find his set to be remarkably enjoyable, brisk and consistent. I also admire Backhaus's second set but consider Gulda's set to be my go-to set these days. This is something that changed recently, but Gulda's set has always impressed me from the very first listen. His technical finish and clear vision of each work is impressive.    

I look forward to reading about more cycles as you add info.

I zipped through Gulda' s set a bit fast and should really find time for a more in-depth listen ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 01:47:21 PM
Love the emoticon, Bill!  Got one making the sign of the cross to ward off vampires, too?

Amen ...     

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Sign-of-the-cross--fingers-position.jpg/110px-Sign-of-the-cross--fingers-position.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 03, 2009, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 05:11:35 PM
I zipped through Gulda' s set a bit fast  ...

That's the only way one can listen to his set.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 06:14:00 PM
Quote from: George on June 03, 2009, 05:24:40 PM
That's the only way one can listen to his set.  ;)

How is the set by Kovacevich?  I only have a few of the Sonatas on this Philips set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C-56a0uWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2009, 10:56:21 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 06:14:00 PM
How is the set by Kovacevich?  I only have a few of the Sonatas on this Philips set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C-56a0uWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

This set is not complete in sonatas (complete concertos, I think, plus the Diabelli) but what there is, is very good indeed - incisive, powerful, and level-headed.  It was my last major purchase of Beethoven on modern piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 04, 2009, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 03, 2009, 12:51:56 PM
Thanks for the info. I have Houston down for the following dates:

1995      -   1997

But I'll check if that's wrong. He'll be included in the next tranche one way or the other.

The link is (in) the title.

...and please include Gerard Willems cycle for ABC in the next tranche.

The information on the internet is sketchy regarding Houston's cycle so I am relying on memory. You are probably correct. It's a very good cycle and the only thing that prevented me purchasing it was the price.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 04, 2009, 01:08:08 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 04, 2009, 12:42:13 AM
...and please include Gerard Willems cycle for ABC in the next tranche.

The information on the internet is sketchy regarding Houston's cycle so I am relying on memory. You are probably correct. It's a very good cycle and the only thing that prevented me purchasing it was the price.

You must be from down under.  ;)

Willems won't be in the next tranche (he finished his cycle in 2000 and there are 11 cycles (!) I'm aware of that squeeze between 1996 and 2000). But he'll be included in the 6th.

You don't have Houston's cycle, but know it? Library? Or patriotism?  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 04, 2009, 04:56:03 AM
Quote from: traverso on June 03, 2009, 10:56:21 PM
This set is not complete in sonatas (complete concertos, I think, plus the Diabelli) but what there is, is very good indeed - incisive, powerful, and level-headed.  It was my last major purchase of Beethoven on modern piano.
I think he was asking about Kovacevich's complete set on EMI, which is also very good, indeed--incisive, powerful, and level-headed--appropriately playful, passionate, and profound where need be.  It is one of my favorites, purchased piecemeal before the boxset was released, and to which I return often.  Many others regard it likewise.  Some do not--GMG's LvB sonata "gurus," Todd and George, among them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 04, 2009, 01:36:19 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 04, 2009, 04:56:03 AM
Many others regard it likewise. 

I do.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 04, 2009, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: traverso on June 03, 2009, 10:56:21 PM
This set is not complete in sonatas (complete concertos, I think, plus the Diabelli) but what there is, is very good indeed - incisive, powerful, and level-headed.  It was my last major purchase of Beethoven on modern piano.

Thanks, -  reminds me, that I intended to acqiure this set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 04, 2009, 08:35:35 PM
Quote from: premont on June 04, 2009, 01:38:56 PM
Thanks, -  reminds me, that I intended to acqiure this set.

Do you already have his complete EMI set?   The Philips offers only a very partial set of sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 04, 2009, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 04, 2009, 04:56:03 AM
I think he was asking about Kovacevich's complete set on EMI  

Was he?  I gather that images of the EMI set are not that difficult to find.  I prefer the sound (and performance) quality of the Philips set, but of course the EMI is quite a bit more complete.  
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 04, 2009, 09:17:12 PM
Quote from: traverso on June 04, 2009, 08:42:09 PM
Was he?  I gather that images of the EMI set are not that difficult to find.  I prefer the sound (and performance) quality of the Philips set, but of course the EMI is quite a bit more complete.  
The pic completed the statement, "I only have a few of the sonatas on this Philips set...."  At least that's what he expressed.  Whether that's what he intended to express is another matter, eh?  ;) 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 04, 2009, 09:32:39 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 04, 2009, 09:17:12 PM
The pic completed the statement, "I only have a few of the sonatas on this Philips set...."  At least that's what he expressed.  Whether that's what he intended to express is another matter, eh?  ;)  

I agree coopmv's statement could have been a bit more precise: it is still NOT quite clear whether he does or does not own ALL the sonatas on the Philips set.  ;)  
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 04, 2009, 10:57:28 PM
Quote from: traverso on June 04, 2009, 08:35:35 PM
Do you already have his complete EMI set? 

Yes, and I share DavidR´s opinion of it. This is my reason for acquiring the Philips set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 04, 2009, 11:03:22 PM
Quote from: traverso on June 04, 2009, 09:32:39 PM
I agree coopmv's statement could have been a bit more precise: it is still NOT quite clear whether he does or does not own ALL the sonatas on the Philips set.  ;)  

He asked: How is the set by Kovacevic?, and might as well mean the EMI set.
After this he told, that he only owns a few of the items on this Philips set, adding the picture of it..
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 05, 2009, 12:11:08 AM
Quote from: premont on June 04, 2009, 11:03:22 PM
...that he only owns a few of the items on this Philips set, adding the picture of it..

So he doesn't own some other items on this Philips set?  There is some ambiguity here if you ask me, noting that all (Bishop-)Kovacevich's Philips recordings were once available either on single CD's or LP's.  

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 05, 2009, 12:21:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 04, 2009, 01:08:08 AM
You must be from down under.  ;)

Willems won't be in the next tranche (he finished his cycle in 2000 and there are 11 cycles (!) I'm aware of that squeeze between 1996 and 2000). But he'll be included in the 6th.

You don't have Houston's cycle, but know it? Library? Or patriotism?  ;D

I'm an Aussie so patriotism is not the cause.

On a trip to NZ I dropped into the central library in Wellington, handed over my drivers licence and put the CDs I'd selected from their shelves into one of their CD players. I chose a couple of CDs from the Houston set and was very impressed. I went back on subsequent days and listened to as much of the cycle that I could. This is excellent LvB playing and well worth a listen. I nearly bought the set but when I went into a store and saw the price I decided not to.

The Willems cycle is in a similar vein but with different characteristics to Houston. This is also available via the local (Gold Coast) library and is again up there in the better range of LvB playing and is a much better price.

I think Todd has heard the Houston but I'm not sure about the Willems. I'd be interested to see how he rates them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 05, 2009, 01:26:05 AM
Quote from: traverso on June 05, 2009, 12:11:08 AM
So he doesn't own some other items on this Philips set?  There is some ambiguity here if you ask me, noting that all (Bishop-)Kovacevich's Philips recordings were once available either on single CD's or LP's.  



I suppose, that he owns a few of the items from the Philips set, and nothing at all of the EMI set,
and therefore he is asking about the quality of the EMI set.
Expect Coop-  himself to make it clear ASAP.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 05, 2009, 01:31:14 AM
Quote from: premont on June 05, 2009, 01:26:05 AM
Expect Coop-  himself to make it clear ASAP.

Oh well I have done all I can to advise him I think  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 05, 2009, 02:33:16 AM
Quote from: traverso on June 04, 2009, 08:42:09 PM
 I prefer the sound (and performance) quality of the Philips set...

Me too. I wonder why he didn't complete the cycle in those days? It's a shame that he didn't.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 05, 2009, 06:21:41 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 05, 2009, 12:21:10 AMI think Todd has heard the Houston but I'm not sure about the Willems. I'd be interested to see how he rates them.



It's the opposite.  I've looked into buying the Houstoun cycle, but it was too expensive when it was available, and now it only appears to be available as downloads.  Even Buywell doesn't list it in physical form.

As to Willems, his cycle is very good.  The best I can describe it is that he takes a conventional approach on a radical instrument.  He's just a bit broad tempo wise, is never flashy, and displays fine dynamics, though the latter is aided by the piano.  He's generally very good in the early and less demanding middle sonatas, a bit lacking in the stormier middle sonatas (even with the aid of the piano in terms of heft), and good in the late sonatas.  The pinnacle of his cycle is Op 26, which is my favorite take on that work at present.  The ABC engineers did what I have to guess is a great job capturing the piano sound.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 06, 2009, 07:20:54 PM
Quote from: traverso on June 05, 2009, 01:31:14 AM
Oh well I have done all I can to advise him I think  >:D

I do not have a single Beethoven Piano Work by Kovacevich on EMI. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2009, 12:44:42 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 06, 2009, 07:20:54 PM
I do not have a single Beethoven Piano Work by Kovacevich on EMI. 

But isn't Kovacevich self-recommending based on his Beethoven on Philips, supposing that you
own the set already?  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on June 07, 2009, 02:25:43 AM
Quote from: traverso on June 07, 2009, 12:44:42 AM
But isn't Kovacevich self-recommending based on his Beethoven on Philips, supposing that you
own the set already?  :)

I've found him on EMI quite changed from his early days on Philips, and not for the better: quite deliberate, and over-wrought.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 04:40:24 AM
Quote from: Que on June 07, 2009, 02:25:43 AM
I've found him on EMI quite changed from his early days on Philips, and not for the better: quite deliberate, and over-wrought.

Q

Hasn't Philips consistently produced CD's with better (remastering) quality than EMI?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on June 07, 2009, 05:17:24 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 04:40:24 AM
Hasn't Philips consistently produced CD's with better (remastering) quality than EMI?

Yes, but I was referring to the issue of musical interpretation.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 05:21:58 AM
Quote from: Que on June 07, 2009, 05:17:24 AM
Yes, but I was referring to the issue of musical interpretation.

Q

Is there any evidence Kovacevich has gotten worse interpretation-wise with age.  His Philips recordings were all from the 70's and I still have a number of them on LP.  Kovacevich and Misha Dichter were both my favorite pianists on Philips, my favorite label in the LP days.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on June 07, 2009, 05:33:44 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 05:21:58 AM
Is there any evidence Kovacevich has gotten worse interpretation-wise with age. 

Evidence? ::) It's just a matter of taste: his style changed and I like his earlier recordings better.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 05:37:37 AM
Quote from: Que on June 07, 2009, 05:33:44 AM
Evidence? ::) It's just a matter of taste: his style changed and I like his earlier recordings better.

Q

I love Kovacevich's recordings from his Philips days and since I do not own any of his EMI recordings, I really cannot comment on those later recordings.  Perhaps Martha Argerich kind of rubbed off on him since they were married at some point.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 07, 2009, 06:23:31 AM
Anyone got cover art (and information?) from the second Paul Badura Skoda fortepiano cycle, which I believe (but am not sure) was recorded between ?1989 and ?1993 for Auvidis Astrée?


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2009, 07:27:16 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 05:21:58 AM
Is there any evidence Kovacevich has gotten worse interpretation-wise with age.  His Philips recordings were all from the 70's and I still have a number of them on LP.  Kovacevich and Misha Dichter were both my favorite pianists on Philips, my favorite label in the LP days.

Hmm, so if you don't already have the Philips CD set which you illustrated with your first post regarding K's Beethoven, you may want to replicate it on CD as well - if it is for me to say, I think the EMI will complement, not replace, the Philips set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 07, 2009, 08:13:38 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 04:40:24 AM
Hasn't Philips consistently produced CD's with better (remastering) quality than EMI?

They have, and this case is no exception. The Philips Kovacevich has a more natural, closer miking technique that results in a clearer image and much more beautiful piano tone than the EMI. Whether the tone can be more attributed to the sound, the playing or the piano used, remains unclear, but what is clear is that the result is excellent. The EMI is more distantly miked and although it is a more modern recording, the piano tone comes across as harsh and steely.

As for the playing, like Que I prefer the Philips recordings. I recently compared a few sonatas and Bagatelles that are shared by both sets and in each case the EMI sounds too aggressive. I realize that this is Beethoven, but for me, Beethoven's music is special because the more intense passages are balanced with passages of sublime beauty. The Philips performances achieve this wonderfully. Far from being either a wimpy Beethoven with no power or a overly muscular one with no heart, his Philips recordings show that Kovacevich could bring out the intensity and the beauty in this music and in the Philips this is all captured in a flattering acoustic environment. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2009, 08:18:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 07, 2009, 06:23:31 AM
Anyone got cover art (and information?) from the second Paul Badura Skoda fortepiano cycle, which I believe (but am not sure) was recorded between ?1989 and ?1993 for Auvidis Astrée?




I've got the Astrée set, Jens. I'll PM you a link when I get it uploaded.

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestre/Zinman - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 07, 2009, 08:44:07 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2009, 08:18:10 AM
I've got the Astrée set, Jens. I'll PM you a link when I get it uploaded.

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestre/Zinman - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

Super! When you mean uploaded, you are talking about the cover, right. Could you do me a great favor and give me the recording dates, too? I've got 89 to 93, but am not sure about either.
Does he use one fortepiano for all... or different instruments?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2009, 09:00:26 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 07, 2009, 08:44:07 AM
Super! When you mean uploaded, you are talking about the cover, right. Could you do me a great favor and give me the recording dates, too? I've got 89 to 93, but am not sure about either.
Does he use one fortepiano for all... or different instruments?

I sent you the front and back covers of all 9 disks. They have all the info you could want, including which fortepiano he uses for each disk. Each one is particular to the time of composition, a really nice touch, I must say. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra Winds - FJH Divertimento #3 in Eb for Winds Hob 2:41 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 07, 2009, 09:41:05 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/1114RG1KCWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

Ian Hobson's cycle was never high on my list of cycles to hear.  Indeed, I'd largely forgotten about it until I picked up a disc of Michel Block playing some Ravel and Falla works with Mr Hobson conducting.  Alas, that disc for the Zephyr label did not find Mr Block in top form, and I found Hobson's conducting not especially inspired.  But his name popped back on the radar.  So I did the (almost) inevitable and bought the New Testament.  It ain't too bad.  It ain't great, either.

The biggest problem with the set as a whole is that there's what I can only describe as a generic sound to it.  Hobson adopts generally sensible tempi – not too fast, not too slow.  He plays with an attractive sound, though it's a bit soft, blunting some of the attack where needed.  His dynamics are well controlled and wide ranging, but rarely does anything really grab the listener's attention.  (Well, this listener, at any rate.)  There's heft and drive and rhythmic snap, but perhaps not quite enough.  It's largely undistinguished.  

That written, I noticed one positive thing about the cycle.  Hobson gets better as the cycle goes along.  I definitely prefer cycles where the quality improves in the later works, but even so it's hard to think of true standouts.  The critical Op 31 sonatas all fare well, though none really engross like they should.  The Appassionata is a bit broad, and much of the time lacks energy, but in certain portions, especially in the last movement, Hobson plays with real flair and power.  The Hammerklavier is a bit long, but the great Adagio is very good.  Even parts of Op 111, especially the second movement, sound excellent.  

This is a decidedly middle of the road cycle, interpretively and qualitatively.  I can think of literally dozens of cycles I prefer, though I can also think of more than a few that Hobson trumps.  It wouldn't be a bad introduction to the works for a newcomer, but I don't see it satisfying in the long run.  I'll find out.

Sound, though, is quite good.  It appears that the folks at Zephyr went for that audiophile, minimalist set-up, so the piano is a bit distant, but dynamics are excellent and tone on the full side.  And though irrelevant, I must note the poor packaging.  I don't know who thought up the idea of black lettering on a charcoal gray background, but deciphering what's on an individual disc from the cover can be challenging.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on June 07, 2009, 09:44:20 AM
I have one Hobson CD playing Beethoven and it is just too boring.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 10:09:07 AM
Quote from: traverso on June 07, 2009, 07:27:16 AM
Hmm, so if you don't already have the Philips CD set which you illustrated with your first post regarding K's Beethoven, you may want to replicate it on CD as well - if it is for me to say, I think the EMI will complement, not replace, the Philips set.

I have had the Philips CD set I illustrated for some times.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 07, 2009, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2009, 09:00:26 AM
I sent you the front and back covers of all 9 disks. They have all the info you could want, including which fortepiano he uses for each disk. Each one is particular to the time of composition, a really nice touch, I must say. :)

Very cool, Gurn. I stumbled upon his Op. 2 in the used bins recently and grabbed it, though I haven't heard it yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2009, 11:50:44 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 07, 2009, 10:09:07 AM
I have had the Philips CD set I illustrated for some times.

That wasn't made clear until now.  Your call to get the EMI set or not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 11, 2009, 02:04:40 AM
Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 5, 1996 - 1999
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_11.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

     

   Michael Houstoun
1994 - 1996 - Morrison Music Trust

   Jean-Bernard Pommier
1991 - 1997 - Erato

   Russell Sherman
1993 - 1997 - GM Recordings

   Robert Taub
1994 - 1997 - Vox

   Georges Pludermacher
1998 - Transart live

   Aldo Ciccolini
1985 - 1999 - Bongiovanni

   Gotthard Kladetzky
19?? - 1998 - Koch Schwann

   André DeGroote
1998 - Naxos (BeNeLux), Solal

   Yukio Yokoyama
1998- 1999 - Sony (Japan)

   Robert Silverman
1999 - Orpheum Masters





Part 1: 1935 - 1969
Part 2: 1967 - 1974
Part 3: 1977 - 1989
Part 4: 1990 - 1996

If you have additional information about recording dates, availability, cover art -- or corrections and additions -- your input is much appreciated.

This survey is meant to list all complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas and their availability in different markets, not to review them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 11, 2009, 03:25:15 PM
Quote from: masolino on June 07, 2009, 11:50:44 AM
That wasn't made clear until now.  Your call to get the EMI set or not.
'Twas clear in the first post to some of us, but native English speakers obviously have an advantage and I can understand why others raised with more syntax would have a hard time.  There are a few other things I understand, but the number about which I am ignorant doubtless exceeds the number of grains of sand on all the beaches of the world.  Thank goodness I know enough to know when I don't know something (usually at least  ;) )!  It makes learning so much easier! 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 21, 2009, 10:27:30 AM
Quote from: springrite on June 07, 2009, 09:44:20 AM
I have one Hobson CD playing Beethoven and it is just too boring.

Thanks for the warnings, guys.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 21, 2009, 10:53:36 AM
Quote from: George on June 21, 2009, 10:27:30 AM
Thanks for the warnings, guys.

Hobsons unmannered style appeals much to me, and it is unfair to say that he is boring. On the other hand I do not think he will do much for you, who prefer more muscular playing (Gilels, Schnabel).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2009, 11:37:51 AM
Part 6 is ready.

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles Part 6, 2000 - 2005 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html)


   Gerard Willems
1997 - 2000? - ABC


   Anne Øland
1995 - 2002? - T.I.M.


   Stephen Kovacevich
1992 - 2003 - EMI


   David Allen Wehr
1998 - 2004 - Connoisseur Society


   Andrea Lucchesini
1999? - 2004 - Stradivarius


   Seymour Lipkin
2002 - 2004 - Newport Classics
   

   Craig Sheppard
2003 - 2004 - Romeo Records

   Daniel Barenboim III
2005 - EMI (DVD)





Part 1: 1935 - 1969 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Part 2: 1967 - 1974 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html)
Part 3: 1977 - 1989 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)
Part 4: 1990 - 1996 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Part 5: 1996 - 1999 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_11.html)

If you have additional information about recording dates, availability, cover art -- or corrections and additions -- your input is much appreciated.

This survey is meant to list all complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas and their availability in different markets, not to review them.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 21, 2009, 07:22:50 PM
Quote from: premont on June 21, 2009, 10:53:36 AM
Hobsons unmannered style appeals much to me, and it is unfair to say that he is boring.

I have a single Hobson disc and find it quite satisfactory.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2009, 05:45:57 AM
This should bring matters up to date.

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles Part 7, 2006/07 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)


Gerhard Oppitz
2004 - 2006 - Hänssler

Garrick Ohlsson
1992 - 2007 - Bridge (Arabesque)

Idil Biret
1994 - 2005 - IBA

András Schiff
2004 - 2007 - ECM

Paul Lewis
2004 - 2007 - Harmonia Mundi

Kun-Woo Paik
2005 - 2007 - Decca (Korea)




This concludes the listing of all Beethoven Sonata Cycles that are currently complete* and finished‡. There are, however, 14 (or more!) cycles under way, of which Ronald Bräutigam's will most likely be the next complete one (and one of the most important, at that). I will list all cycles that are under way--as well as a selection of historically important attempted cycles that were never finished but include >20 sonatas.

* If you count, as I did, Backhaus II and Arrau II as complete, despite one and two (respectively) missing sonatas.

‡ This includes Idil Biret's cycle which has been all recorded but won't have been issued in its entirety until later this year or early 2010.


Part 1: 1935 - 1969
Part 2: 1967 - 1974
Part 3: 1977 - 1989
Part 4: 1990 - 1996
Part 5: 1996 - 1999
Part 6: 1996 - 1999

If you have additional information about recording dates, availability, cover art -- or corrections and additions -- your input is much appreciated.

This survey is meant to list all complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas and their availability in different markets, not to review them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2009, 06:59:26 AM
It looks like you missed a few cycles, mostly Japanese.

Sequeira Costa - VMF records
Ikuyo Nakamichi - RCA Japan
Akiyoshi Sako - Camerata Tokyo
Takahiro Sonoda - 2 cycles: Denon (Nippon Columbia), 1960s (available in Japan and Canada); Evica, 1990s (not available)
Shoko Sugitani - IDC


Plus there are two others that either were finished or close to being finished.

Kazune Shimizu - Sony, reportedly complete but only eight volumes released
Daniela Varinska - an obscure label, but nine volumes complete


Kun-Woo Paik's cycle is available in individual volumes in the US (Han Books) and France.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2009, 07:01:37 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2009, 06:59:26 AM
It looks like you missed a few cycles, mostly Japanese.

Sequeira Costa - VMF records
Ikuyo Nakamichi - RCA Japan
Akiyoshi Sako - Camerata Tokyo
Takahiro Sonoda - 2 cycles: Denon (Nippon Columbia), 1960s (available in Japan and Canada); Evica, 1990s (not available)
Shoko Sugitani - IDC


Plus there are two others that either were finished or close to being finished.

Kazune Shimizu - Sony, reportedly complete but only eight volumes released
Daniela Varinska - an obscure label, but nine volumes complete


Kun-Woo Paik's cycle is available in individual volumes in the US (Han Books) and France.

Holy cow... so much out there that I had no clue about. Thanks much for pointing it out!
If you have any information on these (recording dates of the Denon Sonoda cycle, for example, or
cover pictures),
could you let me know?

So far I've not found at all:

Sequeira Costa - VMF records
Akiyoshi Sako - Camerata Tokyo (found some of them.)
Takahiro Sonoda -  Evica, 1990s (found it. still available, too.)

I've found (individually):

Ikuyo Nakamichi - RCA Japan
and the Denon Sonoda cycle. But not an alleged third that may or may not be out there.

I've found 9 volumes for Varinska, but nothing of Shimizu--except the quote that he did record it and that it's out of print.

Sugitani searches have only revealed the complete concertos to me... and the last volume of her cycle... but nothing else. I ain't finished looking, yet, of course.
Any links welcome!

Did BL Gelber ever get beyond six volumes on Denon?


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 30, 2009, 10:43:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 30, 2009, 05:45:57 AM
This survey is meant to list all complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas and their availability in different markets, not to review them.
For those seeking reviews comparing many (most?) of the extant cycles, but who are not familiar with Todd's Herculean efforts, I strongly recommend looking up his LvB sonata cycle reviews on the old GMG forum--or hunting them down on the two or three other forums where he posted them.  Although I do not agree with all of his judgments, I think his reviews are valuable not only for the great variety of cycles he has examined, but also for his thoroughness and consistency--qualities many professional reviewers could learn something about from him.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2009, 11:44:30 AM
First off, where's Sonoda's Evica cycle available?  That one interests me.

Sequeira Costa: http://www.vdamotta.org/vmfrecords.html  I've tried two volumes, and plan on getting more at some point.

The Sonoda Denon cycle is incorrectly labeled as four discs at HMV Japan.  It's a complete set, and potentially the best by a Japanese pianist. 

Shoko Sugitani is available at HMV Japan: http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/search/index.asp?adv=1&label=Idc+%2Aclassic%2A&category=1.  The search has to be on IDC and then the various LvB volumes; all eleven appear to be available.

Akiyoshi Sako is the same way.  I bought them blind a year or two ago with fingers crossed and was rewarded with a fine cycle.

Kazune Shimizu is apparently still available: http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/745233 .  Last time I looked the only way I could find the discs was searching by sequential catalog numbers.

Ikuyo Nakamichi's cycle is already being reissued piece by piece even though her cycle is from this decade.  It is arguably the best sounding cycle available, up there with the Lewis and on-going Leotta cycles.

For on-going cycles, it looks like Hiroaki Ooi and Irina Mejoueva may need to be added.

Gelber stopped at six volumes as far as I know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2009, 12:05:59 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2009, 11:44:30 AM
First off, where's Sonoda's Evica cycle available?  That one interests me.

Sequeira Costa: http://www.vdamotta.org/vmfrecords.html  I've tried two volumes, and plan on getting more at some point.

The Sonoda Denon cycle is incorrectly labeled as four discs at HMV Japan.  It's a complete set, and potentially the best by a Japanese pianist.  

Shoko Sugitani is available at HMV Japan: http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/search/index.asp?adv=1&label=Idc+%2Aclassic%2A&category=1.  The search has to be on IDC and then the various LvB volumes; all eleven appear to be available.

Akiyoshi Sako is the same way.  I bought them blind a year or two ago with fingers crossed and was rewarded with a fine cycle.

Kazune Shimizu is apparently still available: http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/745233 .  Last time I looked the only way I could find the discs was searching by sequential catalog numbers.

Ikuyo Nakamichi's cycle is already being reissued piece by piece even though her cycle is from this decade.  It is arguably the best sounding cycle available, up there with the Lewis and on-going Leotta cycles.

For on-going cycles, it looks like Hiroaki Ooi and Irina Mejoueva may need to be added.

Gelber stopped at six volumes as far as I know.


Thanks again! Now it's time to credit you in the survey!

The second Sonoda cycle can be found here (http://www.mother-earth-publishing.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=sonoda&page=1&sort=4d).

Once I clean up my complete Excel file of all the cycles, I'll send you a copy, if you are interested.

Did you know of a cycle by Pietro Galli on Cassiope?? (Never mind. Who knew that this Cimarosa kid also composed 32 Sonatas. Clearly any cycle titled "The 32 Sonatas" makes me think of LvB, no matter how bold the composer's name is on the cover.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on July 04, 2009, 09:13:28 AM
This Backhaus' set has been most delightful and I am glad to have grabbed it at a great bargain price ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511Y72TQB6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on August 07, 2009, 06:49:04 AM
Re-release of Brendel's Philips cycle at a cheaper price.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4781821
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on August 07, 2009, 06:56:46 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 07, 2009, 06:49:04 AM
Re-release of Brendel's (second) Philips cycle at a cheaper price.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4781821

I'm waiting for the same Philips-to-Decca magic to take place with the Arrau (first) cycle to happen... as that was pulled a few months ago, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Air on August 07, 2009, 09:41:18 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 07, 2009, 06:49:04 AM
Re-release of Brendel's Philips cycle at a cheaper price.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4781821

I'd say just get the late sonatas of Brendel on Philips, skip the rest.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 07, 2009, 09:45:13 AM
Quote from: RexRichter on August 07, 2009, 09:41:18 AM
I'd say just get the late sonatas of Brendel on Philips, skip the rest.

And I'd say get his Haydn instead.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Valentino on August 08, 2009, 02:06:56 AM
Nah, Brendel's digital cycle is good stuff, almost Salzburgian...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on August 08, 2009, 06:33:23 AM
Quote from: George on August 08, 2009, 06:23:48 AM
Hammerklavier, a work that I must say I have never loved

A shocker! Really. However, I'm glad at the turn of events. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2009, 10:42:24 AM
I just found this upload of Cziffra playing the Waldstein on youtube -- I like it a lot. Not too romantic.

Has anyone heard the recording it comes from? A concert CD on Ermitage I think. My finger is twitching over the one-click button.

http://www.youtube.com/v/iLSTzg_cWoE
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 10, 2009, 12:00:14 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 10, 2009, 10:42:24 AM
I just found this upload of Cziffra playing the Waldstein on youtube -- I like it a lot. Not too romantic.

Has anyone heard the recording it comes from? A concert CD on Ermitage I think. My finger is twitching over the one-click button.

I have an EMI recording of his Waldstein. Is it live? Mine is studio I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2009, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: George on December 10, 2009, 12:00:14 PM
I have an EMI recording of his Waldstein. Is it live? Mine is studio I think.

Yes, it's live. It comes on a CD with Schumann's Carnival and the Bach/Busoni Chaconne. A concert in Lugano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 11, 2009, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 10, 2009, 10:42:24 AM
I just found this upload of Cziffra playing the Waldstein on youtube -- I like it a lot. Not too romantic.

Has anyone heard the recording it comes from? A concert CD on Ermitage I think. My finger is twitching over the one-click button.

http://www.youtube.com/v/iLSTzg_cWoE

I have this twice. The Ermitage CD and as part of the 40 CD set issued by EMI. Movements 2 and 3 of the Waldstein are superb but the opening is not so good. The first movement needs to have a forward impetus and Cziffra is a bit diffident in this regard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 11, 2009, 01:01:25 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 11, 2009, 12:30:28 AM
I have this twice. The Ermitage CD and as part of the 40 CD set issued by EMI. Movements 2 and 3 of the Waldstein are superb but the opening is not so good. The first movement needs to have a forward impetus and Cziffra is a bit diffident in this regard.

actually that was my impression from youtube. Thanks.

Is the Schumann Carnival on the same disc interesting?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 11, 2009, 03:19:09 PM
Yes, well worth listening to as is much of Cziffra's Schumann.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 30, 2010, 05:47:44 PM
Found this today and figured that I would post it here:

Who is the Greatest Interpreter of Beethoven's Music? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7089789/Who-is-the-greatest-interpreter-of-Beethovens-piano-music.html)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 06:32:29 PM
The more I listen to Brautigam, the more I think he deserves to be ranked with the best. I like his aggressive style.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 30, 2010, 07:34:35 PM
Quote from: George on January 30, 2010, 05:47:44 PM
Found this today and figured that I would post it here:

Who is the Greatest Interpreter of Beethoven's Music? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7089789/Who-is-the-greatest-interpreter-of-Beethovens-piano-music.html)

There was no mention of Wilhelm Backhaus and I am not familiar with Richard Goode ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2010, 05:33:40 AM
Quote from: George on January 30, 2010, 05:47:44 PM
Found this today and figured that I would post it here:

Who is the Greatest Interpreter of Beethoven's Music? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7089789/Who-is-the-greatest-interpreter-of-Beethovens-piano-music.html)

Nice riposte, George. You went for the juggler jugular  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2010, 05:36:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2010, 05:33:40 AM
Nice riposte, George. You went for the juggler  ;D

Sarge

I was inspired by the full moon.  ;D

They didn't show it on their site until this morning so I assumed that they weren't going to post it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 06:06:39 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 06:32:29 PM
The more I listen to Brautigam, the more I think he deserves to be ranked with the best. I like his aggressive style.

Is he finished with the cycle? They should box that stuff up.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:08:28 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 06:32:29 PM
The more I listen to Brautigam, the more I think he deserves to be ranked with the best. I like his aggressive style.

The aggressive style might go down well with Beethoven, but not with Chopin ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2010, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: George on January 30, 2010, 05:47:44 PM
Found this today and figured that I would post it here:

Who is the Greatest Interpreter of Beethoven's Music? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7089789/Who-is-the-greatest-interpreter-of-Beethovens-piano-music.html)

George - I'm sure that Todd & you could extend that rather short listing!  :D  A lot 'missing in action' that have graced the pages of this & other threads - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2010, 07:04:01 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 31, 2010, 06:55:34 AM
George - I'm sure that Todd & you could extend that rather short listing!  :D  A lot 'missing in action' that have graced the pages of this & other threads - Dave  :)

Did you see my reply below that article?  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2010, 07:25:34 AM
Quote from: George on January 31, 2010, 07:04:01 AM
Did you see my reply below that article?  0:)

No, did not scroll down fall enough to see if replying was an option - your response is certainly longer than the original!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 31, 2010, 07:25:34 AM
No, did not scroll down fall enough to see if replying was an option - your response is certainly longer than the original!  ;D

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 31, 2010, 07:49:21 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 31, 2010, 07:25:34 AM
... your response is certainly longer than the original!  ;D

... and by far more intelligent, even when it avoids to be sarcastic. BTW, the another replies are not inferior to the original article.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2010, 08:07:19 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 31, 2010, 07:49:21 AM
... and by far more intelligent, even when it avoids to be sarcastic.

I thank you, Antoine! I tried my best to be civil.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 31, 2010, 08:38:35 AM
Quote from: George on January 30, 2010, 05:47:44 PMWho is the Greatest Interpreter of Beethoven's Music? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7089789/Who-is-the-greatest-interpreter-of-Beethovens-piano-music.html)



Brief, conventional, and inaccurate (Barenboim has recorded three cycles, after all).  Yawn.  I always wonder how many cycles people listen to before compiling a list of the "greatest", however one could determine that.



Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 06:32:29 PMThe more I listen to Brautigam, the more I think he deserves to be ranked with the best. I like his aggressive style.

I have the opposite reaction.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 31, 2010, 08:48:36 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2010, 08:38:35 AM
Brief, conventional, and inaccurate (Barenboim has recorded three cycles, after all).  Yawn.  I always wonder how many cycles people listen to before compiling a list of the "greatest", however one could determine that.
Re: Brautigam: I have the opposite reaction.

I agree. What a shitty piece of re-hashing stereotypes, cliches, and conventional wisdom--spiced up with inaccuracies and meaningless chatter. (Kempff's mono cycle messy? WTF? Compared to Pollini. Maybe. And then the "Schnabel insights, unsurpassed" blah blah blah. You don't need to listen to a single note to write any of that. He is (arguably) right, however, in plagiarizing the fact that Schnabel's recordings are best gotten on Naxos.

p.s. Count me among those who are continuously amazed at how great the Brautigam LvB Sonata cycle sounds. What a tremendous achievement; a victory for the forte-piano, which sounds ghastly all too often on other recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Novi on January 31, 2010, 09:27:07 AM
Err, guys, it is the Telegraph, after all...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2010, 08:38:35 AM
I have the opposite reaction.

Well, I didn't offer any specifics, but I am curious to hear yours. What are his weaknessess, do you think he's superficial? Whom do you prefer in this vein, Gulda?
Actually, when I first started listening to Brautigam, I loved him, but part of it was because of the fortepianos. Then I liked him a little less, for his lack of overt rumination and poetry, I suppose. Now I like his directness, steadfastness, and still the fortepianos.

Some positives for Brautigam, I think:
-Technique is never lacking
-Not genteel, I can hear Serkin's influence
-He brings real force and bravura to his playing when called for, to a level unlike Goode and definitely Paul Lewis, but he still brings awareness of Beethoven's classicism.
-It's a valid interpretation to play Beethoven's pieces aggressively, without too much pondering or romanticizing, and sometimes perhaps with abandon.
-Brautigam seems not be contradicting Czerny's recommendations on the sonatas. To play in time, and never drag. But with requisite technique and lightness and bravura in supply.   
-Most of the sonatas were written when Beethoven was less or not much older than 30 years. Beethoven's symphonies have the most fervid metronome markings, up to and including the 9th, as do many of his string quartets. This suggests that he may have preferred playing without too much lingering. 
-Instruments

Sure, I like Kempff's poetry, Fischer's intensity, Backhaus' seriousness, Richter's command, and Serkin's no b.s. drama. Yet I think Brautigam has many admirable qualities too and isn't at all lacking power.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2010, 08:38:35 AM
Brief, conventional, and inaccurate (Barenboim has recorded three cycles, after all). 

Yeah, that was my first thought too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 31, 2010, 02:10:57 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 11:33:48 AMWhat are his weaknessess, do you think he's superficial? Whom do you prefer in this vein, Gulda?


I don't think Brautigam is superficial, but he's something of a one-trick pony.  His speed, clean articulation, and intensity - ie, aggressiveness - work well in the early sonatas, but he doesn't offer enough in later works.  Starting with Op 28, and especially with Op 31 and later, he sounds too monochrome, too limited.  His 31/1 is too dry, too intense, for instance.  His most recent disc shows that he hasn't adopted any notable chanes in the late works.  I had high hopes for the cycle, and still like the earlier works, but for me, a great cycle must be better at the end of the 32 than the beginning.

In terms of a similar approach that I find more to my liking, yes, Gulda is the man.  Had Hungerford completed his cycle, he'd be the second man, if you will.  Brautigam, not so much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: George on January 30, 2010, 05:47:44 PM
Found this today and figured that I would post it here:

Who is the Greatest Interpreter of Beethoven's Music? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7089789/Who-is-the-greatest-interpreter-of-Beethovens-piano-music.html)

Who is Damian Thompson?  Does he have any musical background?  Why have I never, ever, ever, heard about him? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 03:25:22 PM
Quote from: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 02:59:52 PM
Who is Damian Thompson?  Does he have any musical background?  Why have I never, ever, ever, heard about him?

I would hope he has the proper credentials as a music critic if he writes for the Telegraph ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 04:44:08 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2010, 02:10:57 PM

I don't think Brautigam is superficial, but he's something of a one-trick pony.  His speed, clean articulation, and intensity - ie, aggressiveness - work well in the early sonatas, but he doesn't offer enough in later works.  Starting with Op 28, and especially with Op 31 and later, he sounds too monochrome, too limited.  His 31/1 is too dry, too intense, for instance.  His most recent disc shows that he hasn't adopted any notable chanes in the late works.  I had high hopes for the cycle, and still like the earlier works, but for me, a great cycle must be better at the end of the 32 than the beginning.

In terms of a similar approach that I find more to my liking, yes, Gulda is the man.  Had Hungerford completed his cycle, he'd be the second man, if you will.  Brautigam, not so much.

I will have to check out Hungerford.

But oy, are we listening to the same discs? I like Brautigam on the earlier sonatas, but I think he catches fire later on repeatedly in the nicknamed sonatas. Op. 27/1 is great. Op. 27/2 presto agitato is almost flawless, not overdone, as is often the case. Except for the scherzo, the Pastorale is pretty darn excellent, and benefits from the tone of the fortepiano. Maybe the Tempest isn't as impressive as Richter's, but op 31/3 has extraordinary touch and sense of wit, and seems informed by his many years playing Haydn and Mozart.

Disc 6, so much variety exploited, and the Graf copy is a wonderful instrument.
Waldstein is fantastic, particularly the rondo. Op. 79 Andante has so much feeling. The Appassionata is definitely one of best I have ever heard, in terms of pacing and tonal dimension. It sounds like 4 different instruments fused together, in a good way.

On 7, Les Adieux, Das Wiedersehen is pretty awesome, how it picks up from the previous movement. While I think Rudolf Serkin's may be my favorite Hammerklavier in its humanity, Brautigam's has tons of rhythmic personality not found in other versions. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 04:54:25 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2010, 02:10:57 PM

I don't think Brautigam is superficial, but he's something of a one-trick pony.  His speed, clean articulation, and intensity - ie, aggressiveness - work well in the early sonatas, but he doesn't offer enough in later works.  Starting with Op 28, and especially with Op 31 and later, he sounds too monochrome, too limited.  His 31/1 is too dry, too intense, for instance.  His most recent disc shows that he hasn't adopted any notable chanes in the late works.  I had high hopes for the cycle, and still like the earlier works, but for me, a great cycle must be better at the end of the 32 than the beginning.

In terms of a similar approach that I find more to my liking, yes, Gulda is the man.  Had Hungerford completed his cycle, he'd be the second man, if you will.  Brautigam, not so much.

I thought not long ago I saw some posts singing Brautigam praises in a big way.  While I do not own any of his recordings, I was curious. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 05:22:26 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 03:25:22 PM
I would hope he has the proper credentials as a music critic if he writes for the Telegraph ...

Actually, after I posted that I googled the man.  The only references to his writings that I could find were about religion.  He has a blog on the Telegraph and his academic background is in history and religion.   I don't think I will take his music criticism too seriously.  I suppose he just decided to post his particular preferences there the same way I might post my preferences here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 05:26:10 PM
Quote from: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 05:22:26 PM
Actually, after I posted that I googled the man.  The only references to his writings that I could find were about religion.  He has a blog on the Telegraph and his academic background is in history and religion.   I don't think I will take his music criticism too seriously.  I suppose he just decided to post his particular preferences there the same way I might post my preferences here.

An academic background in history and religion is not exactly that out of line with being a music critic IMO ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Herman on January 31, 2010, 05:26:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2010, 05:33:40 AM
Nice riposte, George. You went for the juggler  ;D

Sarge

having nothing to add about LvB's 32 (I hardly ever listen to this stuff) I do want to point out this is unfair to the juggling profession. It's jugular.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: George on January 31, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Yeah, that was my first thought too.

George,  IIRC, you do not really have a very high opinion on the set by Barenboim ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DarkAngel on January 31, 2010, 05:31:17 PM
Brautigam is moving up the piano forte line as Beethoven sonata series gets into later sonatas and Beethoven would have access to more advanced upgraded instruments........fortunately the booklets detail this and provide photos.

Volume 1-5 use a replica 1802 Walter fortepiano
Volume 6,7 use replica 1819 Graf fortepiano

Perhaps another keyboard to finish set, we shall see..............

I also really like Brautigam set to date, and even if it is not your very favorite versions important to have  at least some of the set using the keyboards Beethoven himself composed them on, I have  not heard any other fortepiano Beethoven sonatas that surpass Brautigam's work (although Bunny has begged to check out Komen)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 05:34:14 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 04:44:08 PM
I will have to check out Hungerford.

But oy, are we listening to the same discs? I like Brautigam on the earlier sonatas, but I think he catches fire later on repeatedly in the nicknamed sonatas. Op. 27/1 is great. Op. 27/2 presto agitato is almost flawless, not overdone, as is often the case. Except for the scherzo, the Pastorale is pretty darn excellent, and benefits from the tone of the fortepiano. Maybe the Tempest isn't as impressive as Richter's, but op 31/3 has extraordinary touch and sense of wit, and seems informed by his many years playing Haydn and Mozart.

Disc 6, so much variety exploited, and the Graf copy is a wonderful instrument.
Waldstein is fantastic, particularly the rondo. Op. 79 Andante has so much feeling. The Appassionata is definitely one of best I have ever heard, in terms of pacing and tonal dimension. It sounds like 4 different instruments fused together, in a good way.

On 7, Les Adieux, Das Wiedersehen is pretty awesome, how it picks up from the previous movement. While I think Rudolf Serkin's may be my favorite Hammerklavier in its humanity, Brautigam's has tons of rhythmic personality not found in other versions.

I think Brautigam's cycle is excellent and I especially love the 6th volume with the Waldstein and Appassionata.  In fact, that Waldstein is probably the gem of the collection.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2010, 05:39:40 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 05:30:27 PM
George,  IIRC, you do not really have a very high opinion on the set by Barenboim ...

I've only heard his second set, the DG one, and I think it's OK. Not great, not terrible.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 05:45:05 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 05:26:10 PM
An academic background in history and religion is not exactly that out of line with being a music critic IMO ...

Yes, but he doesn't write music criticism or music reviews.  He edits the Catholic Herald (a conservative Roman Catholic paper in England) and writes about religion for the Guardian Telegraph.  I think he just decided to write about his preferences in Beethoven sonata cycles.  As Todd pointed out, the piece doesn't demonstrate any great depth of knowledge.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:14:15 PM
Quote from: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 05:45:05 PM
Yes, but he doesn't write music criticism or music reviews.  He edits the Catholic Herald (a conservative Roman Catholic paper in England) and writes about religion for the Guardian Telegraph.  I think he just decided to write about his preferences in Beethoven sonata cycles.  As Todd pointed out, the piece doesn't demonstrate any great depth of knowledge.

I also was surprised I did not see the version by Backhaus mentioned in his column.  I have the set by Backhaus and it is excellent ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2010, 06:14:36 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 04:54:25 PM
I thought not long ago I saw some posts singing Brautigam praises in a big way.  While I do not own any of his recordings, I was curious.

Stuart - don't discard Ronald Brautigam on just his Beethoven performances (which I've not heard yet) - I own a number of his other performances on the fortepiano and find them wonderful - just one example are his Mozart solo recordings - reviewed on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Mar01/Mozart_Brautigam.htm) - so keep your ears open on this guy!   ;) ;D  Dave

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/dec00/Mozart_complete_piano_sonatas.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:15:35 PM
Quote from: George on January 31, 2010, 05:39:40 PM
I've only heard his second set, the DG one, and I think it's OK. Not great, not terrible.

So Barenboim's EMI set may be the worst in terms of performance?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:17:29 PM
Quote from: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 05:45:05 PM
Yes, but he doesn't write music criticism or music reviews.  He edits the Catholic Herald (a conservative Roman Catholic paper in England) and writes about religion for the Guardian Telegraph.  I think he just decided to write about his preferences in Beethoven sonata cycles.  As Todd pointed out, the piece doesn't demonstrate any great depth of knowledge.

Well, Telegraph has a credibility issue here. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2010, 06:18:07 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:15:35 PM
So Barenboim's EMI set may be the worst in terms of performance?

Without having heard it, I really can't say.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:20:02 PM
Quote from: George on January 31, 2010, 06:18:07 PM
Without having heard it, I really can't say.

Maybe I will pick up that EMI big box when MDT runs sale on it again ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 06:31:33 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:17:29 PM
Well, Telegraph has a credibility issue here.

Not really, blogs reflect only the opinion of the blogger. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:56:31 PM
Quote from: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 06:31:33 PM
Not really, blogs reflect only the opinion of the blogger.

I was under the impression it was a column in the Telegraph.  I rarely pay attention to bloggers.  You know, the type of bloggers I dislike the most are those who try to dispense investment advice.  If you follow their advices, there is no limit as to what kind of money you can lose ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 31, 2010, 07:20:49 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:20:02 PMMaybe I will pick up that EMI big box when MDT runs sale on it again ...


Make that the EMI DVD cycle, and you've got his best one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bunny on January 31, 2010, 10:07:27 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:56:31 PM
I was under the impression it was a column in the Telegraph.  I rarely pay attention to bloggers.  You know, the type of bloggers I dislike the most are those who try to dispense investment advice.  If you follow their advices, there is no limit as to what kind of money you can lose ...

You really have to be soooo careful nowadays!  Most of the columnists/reporters at a newspaper or tv channel website are allowed to have a blog on the media website.  They appear at the site, but they are still blogs. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2010, 05:53:45 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:15:35 PM
So Barenboim's EMI set may be the worst in terms of performance?

No, no...not at all. Some of us quite like it (well, I do anyway).  As a cycle I prefer it (marginally) to George's favorites but I bow to Todd's expertise and his claim that the DVD cycle is Barenboim's best (I haven't heard it). I find most of the EMI performances satisfying but be aware he has a penchant for taking fast movements really fast, slow ones really slow.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2010, 05:58:31 AM
Quote from: Herman on January 31, 2010, 05:26:57 PM
having nothing to add about LvB's 32 (I hardly ever listen to this stuff) I do want to point out this is unfair to the juggling profession. It's jugular.

George and I were discussing a circus performance. What are you talking about?

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 01, 2010, 06:23:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2010, 05:53:45 AM
No, no...not at all. Some of us quite like it (well, I do anyway).  As a cycle I prefer it (marginally) to George's favorites but I bow to Todd's expertise and his claim that the DVD cycle is Barenboim's best (I haven't heard it). I find most of the EMI performances satisfying but be aware he has a penchant for taking fast movements really fast, slow ones really slow.

Sarge

I wasn't aware of that. With the DG I found that the fast movements were often too slow, in fact that was my biggest beef with his Beethoven sonatas. Perhaps I'd like the EMI. OTOH, I'm already up to my ears in Beethoven sonatas, not to mention poor, so I will pass for now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2010, 07:03:48 AM
Quote from: George on February 01, 2010, 06:23:04 AM
I wasn't aware of that. With the DG I found that the fast movements were often too slow, in fact that was my biggest beef with his Beethoven sonatas. Perhaps I'd like the EMI. OTOH, I'm already up to my ears in Beethoven sonatas, not to mention poor, so I will pass for now.

Barenboim's EMI set might be characterized as a young romantic's Beethoven: impetuous, daring fast movements, heavily romanticized slow movements. He was in his mid-twenties when he recorded the cycle. It's not the only way I want to hear Beethoven but I have plenty of antidotes when I need one (Pollini, for example, or Gould when I want to grin  ;D).

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 01, 2010, 07:13:32 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2010, 07:03:48 AM
Barenboim's EMI set might be characterized as a young romantic's Beethoven: impetuous, daring fast movements, heavily romanticized slow movements.

When you get a chance, can you get me the timings for Op. 2 and Op. 10? I cam curious how they compare to Schnabel's. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2010, 03:27:20 AM
Quote from: George on February 01, 2010, 07:13:32 PM
When you get a chance, can you get me the timings for Op. 2 and Op. 10? I cam curious how they compare to Schnabel's.


             I          II       III       IV
2/1     3:48     5:50   4:10   5:04

2/2     7:18    7:29    3:20   6:34

2/3    10:33    9:00   3:01   5:20

10/1    5:59    9:11   4:44

10/2    6:26    4:24   2:12

10/3    7:09   12:01   2:53  3:55


Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 02, 2010, 03:33:59 AM
Thanks Sarge!

Overall, his fast movements are a bit slower there than on his DG set (but pretty close), but the slow movements are also slower on the EMI.

Compared to Schnabel, his fast movements are clearly slower overall, unless Schnabel skips some repeats (I don't think so, though.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 02, 2010, 03:36:37 AM
Quote from: George on February 02, 2010, 03:33:59 AM
Compared to Schnabel, his fast movements are clearly slower overall, unless Schnabel skips some repeats (I don't think so, though.)

I don't have any Schnabel set on hand for checking, but I was rather certain--barring faulty memory--that he did skip a good number of repeats.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 02, 2010, 06:25:33 PM
For those interested, the Paul Lewis set on HM is available at BRO for 49.90$
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 02, 2010, 11:39:16 PM
I have to say I wasn't at all impressed by Barenboim's DVD cycle. To my ears it's mostly generic with haphazard good moments. Unless found very cheaply (for the included masterclass documentaries), not recommended.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2010, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 02, 2010, 11:39:16 PM
I have to say I wasn't at all impressed by Barenboim's DVD cycle. To my ears it's mostly generic with haphazard good moments. Unless found very cheaply (for the included masterclass documentaries), not recommended.

Quite surprised to see a comment like this. I could undertand if someone complained about the mistakes he sometimes made or some of his choices in some of the sontatas. But the whole time I was watching, I always felt I was listening to someone who had really gotten underneath and into the pieces, someone with long experience playing them. I found myself often thinking about them long after I had heard them.  So while I would not choose this as a first choice or the choice if I could only have one, I thought this would make a great supplement (especially if one wanted to watch). Then again, I saw it for free on TV (well, pay cable, so not exactly free either), so maybe my reaction would be different if I shelled out $100 or whatever it costs.

Putting the money aside, I felt there was a lot to be learned and gained here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 03, 2010, 01:42:31 AM
Those who are curious about the Barenboim EMI set (as I am) can sample the Appassionata first movement here.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8nATAg9NL4&feature=PlayList&p=B7157A43D2AF966C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 03, 2010, 01:55:35 AM
Quote from: George on February 03, 2010, 01:42:31 AM
Those who are curious about the Barenboim EMI set (as I am) can sample the Appassionata first movement here.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8nATAg9NL4&feature=PlayList&p=B7157A43D2AF966C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6)

Also, here's the first movement of  Op. 111 by Barenboim. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSIVfnsSOns&feature=related)

And the same by Richter, from his 1963 Leipzig concert (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n1KGqfpZiU&feature=related)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 03, 2010, 02:17:19 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on February 03, 2010, 12:23:15 AM
...the mistakes he sometimes made or some of his choices in some of the sontatas.

Mistakes I don't mind so much, after all these are live performances. It's the interpretations that mostly don't click. Thankfully, I got the set really cheap; it's good to have around as a visual document and for some occasional good insights he brings to the music; in general, though, this is nowhere near a top cycle in my book.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 03, 2010, 03:16:32 PM
Oh dear, do I really need another one, but how to resist this for just over 35 bucks.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LK3UUwEmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 03, 2010, 07:56:11 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 03, 2010, 03:16:32 PM
Oh dear, do I really need another one, but how to resist this for just over 35 bucks.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LK3UUwEmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

A splendid choice. It was something like my 10th set (albeit incomplete), but I did not regret it. My only complaint is that the outer movements tend to be slower than I like. But the slow movements are to die for!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 04, 2010, 07:51:08 AM
Looking forward to it.

What are the best choices for Beethoven Sonatas on Forte-Piano?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 04, 2010, 02:46:09 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 04, 2010, 07:51:08 AM
What are the best choices for Beethoven Sonatas on Forte-Piano?

Good question - Ronald Brautigam on BIS is up to Vol. 7 (I believe) - not sure how many more volumes are planned, and of course BIS will eventually put out a 'cheaper' box - could be years?

Not sure if there are other complete sets existing or ongoing on the fortepiano, so will look forward to additional comments -  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 04, 2010, 03:51:43 PM
Brautigam isn't just doing the sonatas, but the complete music for solo piano. There is most probably one more disc left for the sonatas, i.e. vol 8.

I highly recommend these recordings. I'd start with volume 6.

There is also Paul Komen, whom I haven't heard but many people seem to enjoy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 04, 2010, 03:53:35 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 04, 2010, 07:51:08 AM
Looking forward to it.

What are the best choices for Beethoven Sonatas on Forte-Piano?

I can't say, as they are not my forte.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 04, 2010, 07:17:06 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 04, 2010, 07:51:08 AMWhat are the best choices for Beethoven Sonatas on Forte-Piano?


There are limited choices if you want to go complete.  Brautigam is almost done and is mixed (at least for me); Paul Badura-Skoda recorded a period cycle, but it's hard to find complete (though single volumes pop up); Malcolm Binns on L'Oiseau Lyre is out there; and Hiroaki Ooi is a newcomer.  For incomplete cycles, Paul Komen's is almost universally lauded.  That's what I will most likely try next in the period arena. 

Alexei Lubimov, Melvyn Tan, Jos van Immerseel, and John Khouri have apparently recorded some as well.  (There are no doubt others.)  I also read that Andrea Lucchesini has perfomed some LvB on period instruments.  I'd like to hear that, on disc or in person.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 04, 2010, 09:36:19 PM
Quote from: George on February 04, 2010, 03:53:35 PM
I can't say, as they are not my forte.  8)

Ok - that was funny  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 04, 2010, 11:05:10 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 04, 2010, 07:17:06 PM
Malcolm Binns on L'Oiseau Lyre is out there;

I have never seen but the late sonatas on Explore.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 05:45:28 AM
Has anyone here heard this CD -- which contains a recording of Cortot in Op 109 -- a late recording I guess?


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cortot-Plays-Chopin-Liszt-Beethoven/dp/B0000064B5/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1265467317&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 06, 2010, 05:52:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 05:45:28 AM
Has anyone here heard this CD -- which contains a recording of Cortot in Op 109 -- a late recording I guess?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cortot-Plays-Chopin-Liszt-Beethoven/dp/B0000064B5/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1265467317&sr=1-1

Haven't heard it until today, just listened to the samples of that sonata and it sounds great! I hope that we one day see that rumored set of the 32 Beethoven sonatas by the pianist get released on CD.   :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 09:16:01 AM
Quote from: George on February 06, 2010, 05:52:24 AM
Haven't heard it until today, just listened to the samples of that sonata and it sounds great! I hope that we one day see that rumored set of the 32 Beethoven sonatas by the pianist get released on CD.   :-\

Just found out that the 109 is from a piano roll.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 06, 2010, 09:40:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 09:16:01 AM
Just found out that the 109 is from a piano roll.

Roll over Beethoven??
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 06, 2010, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 09:16:01 AM
Just found out that the 109 is from a piano roll.

Sorry.

Thanks for the warning. I almost bought the CD this morning.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 06, 2010, 01:40:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 05:44:22 AM
I think your a bit too negative Holden. I have the Cd now and I like it a lot -- even the first movement.

But you're right: forward impetus is not his main concern. It's more classical -- stucture and elegance.

Your possibly correct but when you have superb recordings of the Waldstein by Serkin, Gilels (live), Kovacevich, Tomsic and Solomon you can afford to be a little picky. Don't get me wrong, the Cziffra is an excellent performance and I bought it on recommendation and haven't regretted it. It's since been supplanted by the ones I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 06, 2010, 01:43:03 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 06, 2010, 01:40:51 PM
Your possibly correct but when you have superb recordings of the Waldstein by Serkin, Gilels (live), Kovacevich, Tomsic and Solomon you can afford to be a little picky. Don't get me wrong, the Cziffra is an excellent performance and I bought it on recommendation and haven't regretted it. It's since been supplanted by the ones I mentioned above.

Serkin's mono Waldstein is still tops in my book.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 06, 2010, 05:36:17 PM
...and it's probably mine as well....... though Tomsic runs it close.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 06, 2010, 05:54:42 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 06, 2010, 05:36:17 PM
...and it's probably mine as well....... though Tomsic runs it close.

Haven't heard that one. Yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 06, 2010, 06:03:01 PM
Quote from: George on February 06, 2010, 05:54:42 PM
Haven't heard that one. Yet.

Found it on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuz4xLVWa0A

I see what you mean, Holden, it's a great recoridng. But I recall Serkin's performance as being more exciting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: George on February 06, 2010, 06:03:01 PM
Found it on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuz4xLVWa0A

I see what you mean, Holden, it's a great recording. But I recall Serkin's performance as being more exciting.

Yes -- but there other ways to play it which sometimes hit the spot with me. That's why I think that the Cziffra recording is so valuable. It does other things with the Waldstein than make it exciting.



Lupu -- he is very good in this. That is maybe my favourite. Well worth trying I would say as you can normally get it for peanuts.

And I like Amir Katz.

But neither Lupu nor Katz are particularly exciting -- they underplay the bravura element of the sonata. And I think that's a jolly good thing.

Serkin's early one  is good -- but the sound is not so good. Schnabel is good too, you know. And so is Pletnev.

Haven't heard Tomsic. Will listen. The clip on youtube sounds like just another Waldstein to me -- but I know not to judge from youtube. The sound syestem on my computer is so poor.

I don't  like Gilels much. Sorry. Not even in the Aix recording.

What do you guys think of Hofmann's Casimir Hall recording? If you think of this as a bravura piece, then I think you will love it.

And another famous one -- Backhaus. He even played it on the last recital disc. Any supporters?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 07, 2010, 04:59:45 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 10:22:06 PM
Yes -- but there other ways to play it which sometimes hit the spot with me. That's why I think that the Cziffra recording is so valuable. It does other things with the Waldstein than make it exciting.

I just listened to it and can see why you like it, though I wouldn't count it among my favorites. I like to hear more struggle in the first movement, more mystery in the second and a faster finale.

Quote
Lupu -- he is very good in this. That is maybe my favourite. Well worth trying I would say as you can normally get it for peanuts.
And I like Amir Katz.
But neither Lupu nor Katz are particularly exciting -- they underplay the bravura element of the sonata. And I think that's a jolly good thing.

Haven't heard the Katz, but I own the Lupu. Haven't heard it, as I bought the CD for his Moonlight (which is the best I have heard.) Will put it on and report back later.

Quote
Serkin's early one  is good -- but the sound is not so good. Schnabel is good too, you know. And so is Pletnev.
Haven't heard Tomsic. Will listen. The clip on youtube sounds like just another Waldstein to me -- but I know not to judge from youtube. The sound syestem on my computer is so poor.
I don't  like Gilels much. Sorry. Not even in the Aix recording.
What do you guys think of Hofmann's Casimir Hall recording? If you think of this as a bravura piece, then I think you will love it.

With the Serkin, the strength of the performance made me forget the sound after a few minutes. I had already heard over two dozen Waldsteins, including his stereo performance and wasn't expecting much. I was blown away by his ability to take the excitement up at least a notch above everyone else that I had heard. Then I heard Hofmann's Casimir recording and was again awestruck. Having previously been only somewhat impressed by Hofmann's performances, I couldn't believe that this was the same pianist. I instantly became a fan of his and started collecting everything I could get my hands on by the pianist.

Quote
And another famous one -- Backhaus. He even played it on the last recital disc. Any supporters?

I enjoy his stereo Decca recording, but I think others do better - Schnabel, Horowitz (Sony), Gilels (DG) and Annie Fischer (Hungaroton.) The latter two were my favorites until I heard Serkin and the Casimir Hofmann. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 07, 2010, 05:14:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2010, 10:22:06 PM
Lupu -- he is very good in this. That is maybe my favourite. Well worth trying I would say as you can normally get it for peanuts.

Just listened to the Lupu Waldstein. As expected, his tone is lovely. It's well recorded and he plays with great dynamic contrast and sensitivity. I think this is more successful because unlike Cziffra, he doesn't go for the exciting approach from the very start. The finale still lacks some of the excitement I like to hear in this work, but this is a performance that I will certainly return to. Thanks for the recommendation. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2010, 07:05:55 AM
I am very ambivalent about Casimir.

I went through a phase of being seriously impressed. Hofmann's like that -- the glitter and virtuosity of it all is so entertaining.

But lately I have changed with the wind. When I listen to that Casimir Hall Beethoven I feel that he has turned the sonata into shallow bravura -- there's no depth of feeling there.

And I wouldn't have kind words to say about the Chopin either. To me his crescendos sound like bluster.

But the wind may change direction again.

BTW I just listened to Backhaus's last Waldstein. Compared with Lupu I thought it was really crude.

And I agree that the Lupu recording is probably more successful than Cziffra. But I like Cziffra partly because it is such a personal and unique reading, and I would say that it bears repeated listenening very well. It's interesting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 07, 2010, 07:11:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2010, 07:05:55 AM
I am very ambivalent about Casimir.
I went through a phase of being seriously impressed. Hofmann's like that -- the glitter and virtuosity of it all is so entertaining.
But lately I have changed with the wind. When I listen to that Casimir Hall Beethoven I feel that he has turned the sonata into shallow bravura -- there's no depth of feeling there.

I can see what you mean, though I am still happily upwind.  8)

QuoteBTW I just listened to Backhaus's last Waldstien. Compared with Lupu I thought it was really crude.

Talk about a pair of opposites.  :o To me, Backhaus only really sounds good next to his own work. Whenever I have compared him against others, he has never come up in first or even second place. However, I still enjoy his stereo set and recommend it to others. He's just very individual and best enjoyed after just hearing another Backhaus recording IMO.

QuoteAnd I agree that the Lupu recording is probably more successful than Cziffra. But I like Cziffra partly because it is such a personal and unique reading, and I would say that it bears repeated listenening very well. It's interesting.

I'm sure I'll try out the Cziffra again. I kinda wish he'd at least pretend that those difficult passages were difficult for him.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 08, 2010, 12:55:26 AM
I've just relistened to both the Tomsic and the Serkin and in the end it's the depth of playing in the "Introduzione" and the slightly slower (but no less dramatic) speed of the Serkin Rondo that wins out for me. I've played this piece and while my execution of the prestissimo is just a total mess I enjoy the rest of the work. What appeals to me about Serkin is that he plays at tempos that I would play at. Tomsic is a fraction too fast in the Rondo for my liking but it's still a great exposition of this movement.

I had one Waldstein up my sleeve that I neglected to reveal and it may suit Mandryka. I don't know if it's on YouTube but the Hungerford Op 53 is something quite special.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 08, 2010, 04:39:30 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 08, 2010, 12:55:26 AMI had one Waldstein up my sleeve that I neglected to reveal and it may suit Mandryka. I don't know if it's on YouTube but the Hungerford Op 53 is something quite special.

Yes, I listened to that one this morning and it is indeed special. Great forward momentum in the first movement, nice stillness in the second and though the finale wasn't as good, it ended quite well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 08, 2010, 09:52:07 AM
Quote from: George on February 06, 2010, 01:43:03 PM
Serkin's mono Waldstein is still tops in my book.  :)

Is this the one on the music & arts disc?
http://www.musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD1141hi.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 08, 2010, 10:05:04 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2010, 09:52:07 AM
Is this the one on the music & arts disc?
http://www.musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD1141hi.html

Yes it is. The Sound Quality isn't very good, just so you know.

Archiv Music has it - http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=132112
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 08, 2010, 10:15:52 AM
Quote from: George on February 08, 2010, 10:05:04 AM
Yes it is. The Sound Quality isn't very good, just so you know.

Archiv Music has it - http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=132112

I don't mind old piano recordings, and I love Serkin. Thanks for the heads up. I will put this in my queue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 08, 2010, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2010, 10:15:52 AM
I don't mind old piano recordings, and I love Serkin. Thanks for the heads up. I will put this in my queue.

Your welcome. I just sent you a personal message.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 08, 2010, 10:36:31 AM
Quote from: George on February 08, 2010, 10:20:19 AM
Your welcome. I just sent you a personal message.

Replied, joyfully informed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2010, 09:58:53 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 08, 2010, 12:55:26 AM


I had one Waldstein up my sleeve that I neglected to reveal and it may suit Mandryka. I don't know if it's on YouTube but the Hungerford Op 53 is something quite special.

I will listen.

And one up my sleeve for you. Moiseiwitch's on Naxos.

I enjoy it despite myself. George -- if you think Lupu's tone is lovely, just wait till you hear this.

With pianists of Moiseiwitch's ilk, there's always a danger of being seduced by the ravishing beauty of the tone, and the sparkle. And there is an equal and opposite danger of devaluing it because it is so ravishing (that's a trap I often fall into.)

But I think that Moiseiwitch is rather more than empty note spinning here. It's full of memorable insights.

BTW you can't but applaud Naxos for their Moiseiwitch series. Some real treasures have become easily and cheaply available as a result of that project.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 10, 2010, 02:54:40 AM
Mandryka - Those Moisewitsch Naxos CDs have been on my MDT wishlist ever since they came out. At some point (likely the next sale at MDT) I will snap some (or all) of them up.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 10, 2010, 07:14:59 AM
Quote from: George on February 10, 2010, 02:54:40 AM
Mandryka - Those Moisewitsch Naxos CDs have been on my MDT wishlist ever since they came out. At some point (likely the next sale at MDT) I will snap some (or all) of them up.

He's always outstanding pre-war, and sometimes outstanding after that.

The single best record of his is, I think, the one of Schumann and Brahms on Testament -- I don't know if that stuff has transfered to Naxos or not.

And if you look on rmcr I posted a link recently to his 1939 Chopin Barcarolle, which is quite extraordinary and very hard to find (don't confuse it with his inferior 1941 recording) . Let me know if you can't find the link and you are interested.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 27, 2010, 12:53:27 PM
Because there are not enough complete cycles, I started looking for new cycles in progress.  Sure enough I found the following (all on micro-labels):

Irina Mejoueva - now complete, available in Japan

Martin Roscoe - just under way (Volume 1 coming soon)

Per Tengstrand - just under way (Volumes 1 & 2 coming soon)

Mitsutaka Shiraishi - First two volumnes out


Nah, I don't need to hear any of these . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on April 27, 2010, 01:01:30 PM
Quote from: Todd on April 27, 2010, 12:53:27 PM
Because there are not enough complete cycles, I started looking for new cycles in progress.  Sure enough I found the following (all on micro-labels):

Irina Mejoueva - now complete, available in Japan

Martin Roscoe - just under way (Volume 1 coming soon)

Per Tengstrand - just under way (Volumes 1 & 2 coming soon)

Mitsutaka Shiraishi - First two volumnes out


Nah, I don't need to hear any of these . . .

Same here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 29, 2010, 06:29:30 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/orfeoc808109l.jpg)


Looks like the Andante liner notes to the Gulda set of Schubert, Debussy, et al had it right after all: Friedrich Gulda did record three LvB sonata cycles, and the one that hasn't been released is the earliest, from the early 50s, when Gulda was a very young man.  I don't think this will be as good as his Amadeo cycle since his earlier Decca cycle is not, and most of the other early career recordings I've heard don't quite match the later ones for quality.  But I must have it.  Alas, I must wait for almost a whole month to get it.  Damn.

(Presto Classical already has it listed: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Orfeo/C808109L (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Orfeo/C808109L).)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on September 19, 2010, 04:07:26 PM
Listening to and comparing these two "Pathétiques", about 20 years apart.  I played each movement from each cd, so both firsts, etc.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pGZEgt8vL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
1946
Timings
6:43
5:13
4:36

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LpLmdmiTL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
1962
Timings
8:44
5:35
4:42

Taking into account the added noise on the first, the later recording still had me as I just prefer the slower approach.  Also, on the first third movements of the earlier recording I found Rubinstein's playing a bit too playful for my taste.  Not that he went "honky-tonk" on it, but enough "cuteness" to make me raise an eyebrow and pause while getting my weekly ironing done.

Hmmm....noticed a 1954 recording.  That may be of interest.  Volume 33 on that one, George.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on September 19, 2010, 04:18:40 PM
Ah, what the heck....spinning

Op. 8 No. 13 Op 13 No. 8 ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yT9ZERgwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 19, 2010, 04:36:18 PM
Quote from: Bogey on September 19, 2010, 04:07:26 PM
Listening to and comparing these two "Pathétiques", about 20 years apart.  I played each movement from each cd, so both firsts, etc.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pGZEgt8vL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
1946
Timings
6:43
5:13
4:36

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LpLmdmiTL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
1962
Timings
8:44
5:35
4:42

Taking into account the added noise on the first, the later recording still had me as I just prefer the slower approach.  Also, on the first third movements of the earlier recording I found Rubinstein's playing a bit too playful for my taste.  Not that he went "honky-tonk" on it, but enough "cuteness" to make me raise an eyebrow and pause while getting my weekly ironing done.

Hmmm....noticed a 1954 recording.  That may be of interest.  Volume 33 on that one, George.

Thanks for that Bill, I would suspect that most of that big difference in the first movement is due to an omitted repeat. At any rate, I have the later one and therefore, I am glad you enjoy it more.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 19, 2010, 04:37:00 PM
Quote from: Bogey on September 19, 2010, 04:18:40 PM
Ah, what the heck....spinning

Op. 8 No. 13 Op 13 No. 8 ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yT9ZERgwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Now you're cookin'  8)

You got Moravec's Pathetique yet?  $:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2010, 04:43:19 PM
Quote from: George on September 19, 2010, 04:37:00 PM
Now you're cookin'  8)

You got Moravec's Pathetique yet?  $:)

Watch it Bill. George is a cruel man who wants company on the path he's chosen...  >:D 

:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Andreas Staier (Fortepiano) & Damiel Sepec (Violin) - Bia 340 2 Op 30 #2 Sonata #7 in c for Keyboard & Violin 4th mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 19, 2010, 04:44:57 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2010, 04:43:19 PM
Watch it Bill. George is a cruel man who wants company on the path he's chosen... 

Call me Roper...

(http://www.la2day.com/files/u201/ThreesCompany03.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on September 19, 2010, 04:49:51 PM
Quote from: George on September 19, 2010, 04:37:00 PM
Now you're cookin'  8)

You got Moravec's Pathetique yet?  $:)


Dfifiuclt to tpye and iron at the smae tmie. ;D

Not on cd.  I believe I have it in the "vinyl vault".

Now "Pathétique" a la Schnabel (recorded 1933/34).  Rain just came in so it's adding to the sound....wait.....check that....it's just the Pearl transfer. ;D



Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2010, 04:43:19 PM
Watch it Bill. George is a cruel man who wants company on the path he's chosen...  >:D 

:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Andreas Staier (Fortepiano) & Damiel Sepec (Violin) - Bia 340 2 Op 30 #2 Sonata #7 in c for Keyboard & Violin 4th mvmt - Allegro

:D


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 19, 2010, 04:52:21 PM
Quote from: Bogey on September 19, 2010, 04:49:51 PM
Now "Pathétique" a la Schnabel (recorded 1933/34).  Rain just came in so it s adding to the sound....wait.....check that....it's just the Pearl transfer. ;D

;D :D ;D

Oh and Bill, I'm not cruel. If I was, I would have suggested Bernard Roberts's cycle.  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2010, 04:57:46 PM
Quote from: George on September 19, 2010, 04:52:21 PM
;D :D ;D

Oh and Bill, I'm not cruel. If I was, I would have suggested Bernard Roberts's cycle.  0:)

Fair enough, your point is made. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Mosaiques - D 173 Quartet #9 in g for Strings 3rd mvmt - Allegro vivace
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 22, 2010, 02:35:37 PM
On a whim, I got the El Bacha complete Beethoven from Amazon France (33 euro - you can also get his complete chopin for the same price) and thought he was magnificent.  Someone in this post has called him boring, but I thought he was anything but.  Maybe that was the impression he gave because he has a truly outstanding technique and usually moves along at a flowing tempo, without many heavy accents or pauses.  In other words, he doesn't over-interpret like so many in this field. But when he hits the turbo button he can be breathtaking.

Anyway, I think it's an exceptional set.  Got no idea why this guy doesn't have a big name like lots of the pretentious bores play the Beethoven sonatas who do. 

Oh, and the sound is exceptional.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 23, 2010, 09:10:05 AM
Quote from: Fred on October 22, 2010, 02:35:37 PMGot no idea why this guy doesn't have a big name like lots of the pretentious bores play the Beethoven sonatas who do. 

Oh, and the sound is exceptional.



I'm one of those people who think his cycle is boring.  It's just plain bland and mechanical.  You are right, he doesn't over-interpret.  It sounds like he's sight reading most of the time; he doesn't really interpret at all.  The reason he doesn't have a big name is because he's not particularly good.  Out of curiosity, who are the pretentious bores you refer to?

I must also disagree about the sound.  It's mostly mediocre by even 80s standards.  I have no idea how you can say it's exceptional.  Nakamichi, Lewis, Sherman, Willems, Brautigam (for HIP fans), most of Pommier, now those cycles are in exceptional sound. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on October 23, 2010, 12:25:17 PM
I'm not familiar with El Bacha's Beethoven, but I am very familiar with his Schumann: lousy piano tone and entirely generic performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on October 23, 2010, 12:57:54 PM
one man's meat....... oh well.

I've just received this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EwrUgM37L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

...and it was not what I expected!!

Previous EG sonata performances I'd heard include the Moscow 1961 of 8, 14, 23, a fantastic Waldstein from 1966, Les Adieux and briefly, the Hammerklavier. I'd been expecting something a bit more bombastic, good solid performances, well interpreted and great to listen to - a la Annie Fischer I suppose.

Well, this is very thoughtful playing indeed. it was evident from the first few bars of Op 2 no 2 and it is endemic throughout the sadly incomplete cycle. I know the LvB PS very well both as a listener and a player and EG had me carefully listening to virtually every bar. This is not because of feats of jaw dropping prestidigitation but the way the work was unfolding, in a completely fresh way, before my ears.

Yes, when he has to Gilels lets her rip, but only when he has to. No unnecessary bravura here. So what stands out? Well, immaculate phrasing for a start and in many cases because he eschews the use of the sustain pedal an incredible clarity of  line and articulation. There are delicately voiced ppps, thunderous fffs and a wide and rich tonal palette. It's made me realise that I had come to have a somewhat monochromatic view of these works and that there is a world beyond Richter (who I love in LvB).

The down side is I now feel obliged to seek out sets I'd avoided such as the mono Kempff who I know has a different interpretative perspective from what I am currently listening to. Maybe Nat, Heidsieck and Frank should be on my list of acquired LvB though I can't imagine them surpassing this set.

I'm giving it the Todd litmus test at the moment - Op 31.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has this box set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 23, 2010, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: Holden on October 23, 2010, 12:57:54 PMI'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has this box set.



I have the earlier incarnation, and it is top-flight stuff.  His absolute technical command, and his almost breath-taking dynamic range, make the set indispensible.  His playing is generally slower than I prefer, but that matters not one bit.  He makes the strongest possible case for his approach and for slower tempi. 

Of the other cycles you mention, the one you may want to try first is Heidsieck's.  His approach is unique, to say the least.  It's downright idiosyncratic at times, but it always sounds of-the-moment, or close to it, even though Heidsieck obviously put a lot of thought into what he wanted to do.  (The sound is a bit bright and metallic).  Frank is also exceptional, but he's sterner and less flexible than Heidsieck or Gilels.  Kempff's mono set is, for me, a must hear.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on October 23, 2010, 05:10:09 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 04, 2010, 07:17:06 PM

There are limited choices if you want to go complete.  Brautigam is almost done and is mixed (at least for me); Paul Badura-Skoda recorded a period cycle, but it's hard to find complete (though single volumes pop up); Malcolm Binns on L'Oiseau Lyre is out there; and Hiroaki Ooi is a newcomer.  For incomplete cycles, Paul Komen's is almost universally lauded.  That's what I will most likely try next in the period arena. 

Alexei Lubimov, Melvyn Tan, Jos van Immerseel, and John Khouri have apparently recorded some as well.  (There are no doubt others.)  I also read that Andrea Lucchesini has perfomed some LvB on period instruments.  I'd like to hear that, on disc or in person.

I already have 9 complete cycles and I am done.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 24, 2010, 04:55:12 PM
Interesting how Gilels gets to be solid and straightforward (and that's acceptable) because he's a Russian big name - though, quite frankly, his Hammerklavier sends me to sleep (though not as much as Arrau).

El Bacha, on the other hand, is accused of sight-reading.  But I take back what I've said about him being good - if he's sight-reading his way through the hammerklavier, he's a genius.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on October 25, 2010, 01:50:00 AM
Quote from: Fred on October 24, 2010, 04:55:12 PM
Interesting how Gilels gets to be solid and straightforward (and that's acceptable) because he's a Russian big name - though, quite frankly, his Hammerklavier sends me to sleep (though not as much as Arrau).

El Bacha, on the other hand, is accused of sight-reading.  But I take back what I've said about him being good - if he's sight-reading his way through the hammerklavier, he's a genius.

This is an interesting reply from you Fred. At no stage did I suggest that Gilels was solid and straight forward in the Hammerklavier.

Any competent pianist could sight read their way through the Hammerklavier. I believe that Barenboim could do it before he was 13!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on October 25, 2010, 07:03:24 AM
Holden, I have to say that your comments have made me curious to hear Gilels' set in toto. While I have perhaps a third or more of his DGG sonatas, I don't think I've ever heard the "entire" (incomplete) cycle. As a result, I've found myself often doing spin-offs that lead me to prefer his live (or sometimes simply earlier) renditions of various sonatas. The Hammerklavier is a good case in point: to my ears, his Melodiya version trumps the DGG rather handily (this opinion created by an A-B comparison many years back...I think I still have the DGG Hammerklavier on vinyl but not CD). However, you make me wonder if I'd have the same opinion if approaching the performance with my ear attuned to the style he apparently established for his full studio effort.

I'll be interested in hearing your opinion again after you've listened through another time or two (as I'm sure you will).
;)

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 07:41:11 AM
I would kill for a complete set of Gilels playing the Beethoven sonatas, ca. 1950. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 25, 2010, 03:18:29 PM
Holden - at the speed Barenboim plays I'm sure he can sight-read everything (he's not a fav either).  But I recently read Kovacevich (who is a fav) saying that it took him two years to learn the hammerklavier and the experience almost drove him to despair.

But I'd be interested to know your comments on Gilel's Hammerklavier.  In the first movement, I keep waiting for lift-off, but all he does is taxi to the runway.   It's as if he's channelling Richter playing Schubert.  What's he up to?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2010, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 24, 2010, 04:55:12 PM
El Bacha, on the other hand, is accused of sight-reading.  But I take back what I've said about him being good - if he's sight-reading his way through the hammerklavier, he's a genius.

Fred - you've made 3 posts to this forum and on a very difficult & controversial topic, i.e. the LvB Piano Sonatas, and have come up w/ an apparent recommendation on El Bacha, a performer that I've never heard of until your appearance here?  :-\

Now, I'm not one of the 'experts' here in this repertoire but have own about a half dozen sets of these sonatas - now just have about half of that number, but others here must have a dozen or more - thus my question to you, is how many have your heard, how many do you own currently, and why is El Bacha apparently at the TOP of your list?  Just wondering -  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:06:33 PM


Excellent and fair question:

Complete sets: I own - Lortie (not listened yet); Kovacevich (big fan), Gilels, Fischer, Grinberg (pretty good), fair bit of Arrau, Lewis (a bit too cultured for my liking), Goode (ditto  - but wonderful in places), schiff, wehr (seriously good, and cheap) and several others that don't spring to mind right now.  Got lots of Richter and love him.

I got a bit addicted to the beethoven sonatas at one stage.  So maybe after listening to every man and his dog try to show me how great this music was, I finally appreciated someone who just plays it and lets me be the judge (El Bacha).  I know some people see him as too straightforward - but I prefer to think of him as unaffected and you certainly get to hear every note you pay for. True, he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't.  But, paradoxically, I think there is real energy inside his playing (if you listene) and he isn't afraid to bang away, it's just that when he does, he never sounds harsh.

Anyway, if that doesn't make any sense, it's probably appropriate.  I agree with you totally that when it comes to assessing the Beethoven piano sonatas it's incredibly hard.  There's a set for every stage of your life and every mood you're in.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 06:12:35 PM
I tried to sample some of El Bacha's Beethoven over at youtube and found nothing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 25, 2010, 06:16:54 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:06:33 PM


Excellent and fair question:

Complete sets: I own - Lortie (not listened yet); Kovacevich (big fan), Gilels, Fischer, Grinberg (pretty good), fair bit of Arrau, Lewis (a bit too cultured for my liking), Goode (ditto  - but wonderful in places), schiff, wehr (seriously good, and cheap) and several others that don't spring to mind right now.  Got lots of Richter and love him.

I got a bit addicted to the beethoven sonatas at one stage.  So maybe after listening to every man and his dog try to show me how great this music was, I finally appreciated someone who just plays it and lets me be the judge (El Bacha).  I know some people see him as too straightforward - but I prefer to think of him as unaffected and you certainly get to hear every note you pay for. True, he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't.  But, paradoxically, I think there is real energy inside his playing (if you listene) and he isn't afraid to bang away, it's just that when he does, he never sounds harsh.

Anyway, if that doesn't make any sense, it's probably appropriate.  I agree with you totally that when it comes to assessing the Beethoven piano sonatas it's incredibly hard.  There's a set for every stage of your life and every mood you're in.

It's a civilized and intelligent response. Additionally, you wrote an excellent line: "... he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't".   :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on October 25, 2010, 06:27:05 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 25, 2010, 06:16:54 PM
Additionally, you wrote an excellent line: "... he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't".   :)

A grammarian would disagree with the "excellent line" evaluation, but I have to admit, I rather like the thought expressed myself.
;D

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on October 25, 2010, 06:27:13 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 25, 2010, 06:16:54 PM
It's a civilized and intelligent response. Additionally, you wrote an excellent line: "... he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't".   :)

I used to think playing the notes would be enough.  Then I heard Pommier.  He gave me the deep insight that playing the notes is not enough.   :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:30:13 PM
I listened to El Bacha on Amazon France before I bought.  The Australian dollar has been putting on muscle recently (finally) which is one reason why I've been buying Beethoven sets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 06:38:03 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:30:13 PM
I listened to El Bacha on Amazon France before I bought.  The Australian dollar has been putting on muscle recently (finally) which is one reason why I've been buying Beethoven sets.

Thanks, I found some samples at amazon.fr.

Bacha's Beethoven is far too relaxed for me. I like more tension, more excitement in my Beethoven.

I bet the sound is good, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:52:46 PM
Sound is excellent.  No tension?  You sure? If tension is "I'm not sure this guy will be able to play this music" then El Bacha doesn't have much tension.  But if tension is "I want to keep listening to this guy and hear what he's got to say" I find plenty of tension.   I just pulled out his disk of the late sonatas.  El Bacha does 109 to 111 in 61 minutes.  Leonskaja does them in 70 minutes; Jerome Rose in 66; Lortie 67.37. So I'm not sure you should call him "relaxed". The guy doesn't dawdle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 25, 2010, 06:57:52 PM
Quote from: George on October 25, 2010, 06:38:03 PMI bet the sound is good, though.


Sound is mediocre.  Taste regarding playing may differ widely, but sonics are a different matter.  There is no way this set can be said to be in particularly good sound.



Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:52:46 PMThe guy doesn't dawdle.


If only tempo in itself signified anything.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 07:07:35 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:52:46 PM
Sound is excellent.  No tension?  You sure? If tension is "I'm not sure this guy will be able to play this music" then El Bacha doesn't have much tension.  But if tension is "I want to keep listening to this guy and hear what he's got to say" I find plenty of tension.   I just pulled out his disk of the late sonatas.  El Bacha does 109 to 111 in 61 minutes.  Leonskaja does them in 70 minutes; Jerome Rose in 66; Lortie 67.37. So I'm not sure you should call him "relaxed". The guy doesn't dawdle.

Well, I didn't say no tension, I said "far less tension than I like in Beethoven." Tension to me is a sense of drama, of excitement. Tempo plays a part, but mostly it comes down to style. It isn't dictated by technique, for pianists like Gulda, Richter and Pollini have wonderful technique but also can generate a high level of tension in their playing. Also, by relaxed I meant something similar to lacking tension. I don't mean relaxed = slow, though. I just mean relaxed in the sense that it lacks that nervous energy and urgency that makes Beethoven sonata performances exciting for me. El Bacha is definitely not alone in this, however. I think Gilels is often too relaxed in the outer movements as well. His slow movements are stunning however. I think Kempff is another Beethoven pianist who lacks tension, but he makes up for it in beauty. Goode, Brendel and Silverman are more pianists that come to mind when I think of those who lack drama and excitement. Since I already have all of the above sets, I see no need to get another in this style.   

Examples of pianists who play Beethoven in the way I most enjoy are Rudolf Serkin (mono recordings especially), Josef Hoffman's live Waldstein, Moravec (Pathetique), Richter, Annie Fischer, Gulda and Schnabel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Philoctetes on October 25, 2010, 07:30:16 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 06:06:33 PM

Lortie

Loveeeeeeeeeeeeee it.

Such clean and crisp playing. Lightness of touch. Probably my second favorite Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 25, 2010, 07:41:28 PM
I could be wrong about the sound, because I haven't really noticed it.

Lortie's box set is out now - got mine from presto classical.

Well, el bacha IS Lortie (though he motors a bit more).

In fact, I just did an A/B of Lortie and El Bacha in last movement 31/3.  Think El Bacha won it by a hair - though I would say that, wouldn't I.  But, God, he makes a gorgeous sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 07:41:54 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on October 25, 2010, 07:30:16 PM
Loveeeeeeeeeeeeee it.

Such clean and crisp playing. Lightness of touch. Probably my second favorite Beethoven.

Who is your first?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Philoctetes on October 25, 2010, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: George on October 25, 2010, 07:41:54 PM
Who is your first?

Kuerti
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on October 25, 2010, 07:42:12 PM
Kuerti

Wow! That took you 18 seconds!  :o

I don't have that set. Someday...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 07:44:23 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on October 25, 2010, 07:30:16 PM
Loveeeeeeeeeeeeee it.

I was going to argue that you can't hold a silent e, but then I realized it'd be impossible to prove.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 25, 2010, 07:45:02 PM
Isn't Kuerti supposed to be a bit slow??? and hasn't he done a couple???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Philoctetes on October 25, 2010, 07:45:11 PM
Quote from: George on October 25, 2010, 07:43:32 PM
Wow! That took you 18 seconds!  :o

I don't have that set. Someday...

You can get it pretty cheaply from this website:

http://www.jwentworth.com/pianists/anton_kuerti/order.htm
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Philoctetes on October 25, 2010, 07:46:01 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 07:45:02 PM
Isn't Kuerti supposed to be a bit slow??? and hasn't he done a couple???

I don't know if I would call him slow, but he definitely has very interesting takes on the music, which is really what draws my ear to him.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 25, 2010, 07:49:23 PM
Quote from: George on October 25, 2010, 07:43:32 PM
I don't have that set. Someday...

... but you must wait at least three months. I'm talking seriously, boy.  >:(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 25, 2010, 07:54:31 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 25, 2010, 07:49:23 PM
... but you must wait at least three months. I'm talking seriously, boy.  >:(

Totally. I just got the new Gulda and that will keep me busy for at least that long, plus I have to finish listening to my Silverman set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 25, 2010, 07:58:49 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 07:45:02 PMIsn't Kuerti supposed to be a bit slow??? and hasn't he done a couple???



In the complete cycle Kuerti is generally slow, and at times exceedingly slow, like in 106.  He has recorded only one complete cycle, a one off of Op 28/2 and 106, and then the last five sonatas.  His cycle is his least compelling LvB, with the most recent recordings the best, and his superb concerto cycle.  Better still is him playing Beethoven in recital based on what I heard earlier this year.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on October 26, 2010, 01:15:22 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 25, 2010, 03:18:29 PM
Holden - at the speed Barenboim plays I'm sure he can sight-read everything (he's not a fav either).  But I recently read Kovacevich (who is a fav) saying that it took him two years to learn the hammerklavier and the experience almost drove him to despair.

But I'd be interested to know your comments on Gilel's Hammerklavier.  In the first movement, I keep waiting for lift-off, but all he does is taxi to the runway.   It's as if he's channelling Richter playing Schubert.  What's he up to?

Richter and Gilels are worlds apart in LvB and the Hammerklavier defines this quite well. SR plays with far more bombast than Gilels and this will give the work the 'take-off' that you are talking about. However, the adagio sostenuto is IMO one of the greatest slow movements ever written for the piano and many a performance has foundered on this not inconsiderable 'rock'. Gilels and Richter are like chalk and cheese in this movement. Where Richter is very good, Gilels brings out an atmosphere that is almost 'other worldly' and a portent of what was to come in the Arietta of Op 111.

However, neither performance is my favourite of Op 106. That honour goes to two recordings. One is the justifiably famous Solomon Cutner from the 1950s. The other is by Grigory Sokolov.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 26, 2010, 02:55:58 PM
Haven't heard Cutner.  Totally agree on Sokolov.  Someone I think very good in the hammerklavier is Ursula Oppens - seems to be almost the only non-contemporary recording she's made. I also think Feltsman is magnificent in the last three: haven't heard his hammerklavier though, which has mixed reviews.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 26, 2010, 03:41:48 PM
Quote from: Fred on October 26, 2010, 02:55:58 PM
Haven't heard Cutner.  Totally agree on Sokolov.  Someone I think very good in the hammerklavier is Ursula Oppens - seems to be almost the only non-contemporary recording she's made. I also think Feltsman is magnificent in the last three: haven't heard his hammerklavier though, which has mixed reviews.

My fave Hammerklavier is Pollini's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on October 26, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
Quote from: George on October 25, 2010, 07:54:31 PM
Totally. I just got the new Gulda and that will keep me busy for at least that long, plus I have to finish listening to my Silverman set.

You bought the Silverman set?  He does nothing for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 26, 2010, 06:14:38 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on October 26, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
You bought the Silverman set?  He does nothing for me.

Yes and so far, me neither.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 26, 2010, 08:34:06 PM
Michael Leslie has recently put out an excellent Hammerklavier (really takes no prisoners).  Then I went looking for his other recordings and found out he's past 60 and the Hammerklavier is about it.  It's as if he spent all his life preparing for just one title match, won and then retired.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on October 27, 2010, 12:43:25 AM
Quote from: George on October 26, 2010, 03:41:48 PM
My fave Hammerklavier is Pollini's.

I still have not heard the Pollini late LvB set. I must rectify this!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on October 27, 2010, 06:46:06 AM
Quote from: Holden on October 27, 2010, 12:43:25 AM
I still have not heard the Pollini late LvB set. I must rectify this!

Yes, dear. You certainly must.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on October 27, 2010, 08:17:00 AM
 +1 for Solomon in the 106, but I would also suggest Arrau's 1960's Hammerklavier recording as exceptionally fine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on October 30, 2010, 12:09:54 PM
Todd---have you listened to Gulda's mid 50's set recently released on Orfeo? It is tempting.....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 30, 2010, 01:09:07 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on October 30, 2010, 12:09:54 PM
Todd---have you listened to Gulda's mid 50's set recently released on Orfeo? It is tempting.....

He has. He started a thread on the set on this board.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2010, 10:53:48 PM
Quote from: david-jw on October 27, 2010, 08:17:00 AM
+1 for Solomon in the 106, but I would also suggest Arrau's 1960's Hammerklavier recording as exceptionally fine.

As far as I know Arrau only recorded it once, which is pretty strange. And I agree it's a very good interpretation.

What I want from a performance of 106 is a sort of gushing multiple  orgasm of ideas. 

For years now, the Op106s I return to the most are Gould's and Yudina's . And more recently I've enjoyed Levy a lot.

Gould's rhythmic sense really works for him in this I think -- he brings such an infectious swing to the music all the musical gestures feel totally natural and fresh and easy and right. And there's a great lyrical feel to it. It sings. (He sings ;))

Yudina is equally creative and spontaneous sounding -- intense and rugged.

And Levy seems to find more ideas here than anyone else -- it's as if every time you listen to him you hear bits of musi, voices, which the others hide.

All three seem totally cool about the long lines, the long filo.

Schnabel's adagio is one of the best things he ever recorded. Shame about the rest of the sonata.

Solomon's  a bit bloodless I think  -- in this as in everything. 

Other ones which I felt very positively about -- but have rarely (if ever) returned to - - are Francois-Frederic Guy's forst recording  and  Paul Lewis's.

I need to listen to Sokolov again in this. And Richter  too.

Listen to this -- it's mad. But who is this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/v/IA2v7ikyuxg


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on October 31, 2010, 12:47:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2010, 10:53:48 PM
Listen to this -- it's mad. But who is this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/v/IA2v7ikyuxg

Hmmm. Beus came into my radar--though only on the periphery, I'm afraid--when a couple of his CDs came into the local library a few months back (less common stuff...Griffes, Bauer, Barber, bit of Scriabin). The most recent addition was on Harmonia Mundi, but not sure if he's signed to that label now. Honestly, I didn't pay that much attention, but based on this wild little outing, I think I'll track those discs down and listen more closely.

I fear I have little to contribute to the Hammerklavier discussion. I have a hard time saying that I even understand, let alone appreciate, the 106. I've always been less impressed than most folks by Solomon's, and I know that the critics have loved it for decades (however, I am a true Solomon fan and I do love his earlier Beethoven sonatas...his Waldstein knocks most other pianists in the dust...so I can hardly concur with your "bit bloodless...in this as in everything" comment). The first pianist to make this sonata even sort of coherent for me was Egon Petri: I have a Columbia Special Products LP and a downloaded transfer of a later Westminster LP, plus I believe there are some live performances floating around. I've paid enough attention to Gilels' versions to know that I prefer his earlier Melodiya. Years ago, I was quite impressed upon first hearing Pollini's DGG and still have the LP set in my collection. And more recently, I too have enjoy listening to Levy. But I also have plenty of other doing the work (including two or more renditions by Richter...so why am I not recalling and gushing over one of his, I ask myself?). Apparently, I am in dire need of an op.106 spin-off session.

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 31, 2010, 01:31:56 PM
Well, I've not reviewed all of the back pages in this thread, but today I was perusing the November-December issue of Fanfare, and a complete Beethoven Piano Sonata cycle was reviewed w/ a rather excellent recommendation:

Andre De Groote - never heard of this performer; according to the review he has also done a complete Brahms cycle - so just curious from our 'experts' here - any comments?   :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IbGJbhAbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2010, 01:45:13 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 31, 2010, 01:31:56 PMAndre De Groote - never heard of this performer...any comments?



Not bad: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15357.msg376026.html#msg376026 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15357.msg376026.html#msg376026).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on October 31, 2010, 03:19:27 PM
Charles Rosen's Hammerklavier. Proper tempo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85AMx6OD87A
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2010, 10:43:14 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on October 31, 2010, 03:19:27 PM
Charles Rosen's Hammerklavier.

He recorded it 3 times. 

I believe that Glen Gould was so impressed by the first that he refused to record the sonata for his Beethoven survey -- he said that he couldn't do better than Rosen. Later on he changed his mind of course.

Does anyone else know this story? I'm sure I read it somewhere but I don't know where. It may be a figment of my imagination.

Quote from: Clever Hans on October 31, 2010, 03:19:27 PM
Proper tempo.

You mean that it's the tempo Beethoven indicated, or that you like it at that tempo?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 01, 2010, 01:14:39 AM
Quote from: dirkronk on October 31, 2010, 12:47:27 PM

I fear I have little to contribute to the Hammerklavier discussion. I have a hard time saying that I even understand, let alone appreciate, the 106. I've always been less impressed than most folks by Solomon's, and I know that the critics have loved it for decades (however, I am a true Solomon fan and I do love his earlier Beethoven sonatas...his Waldstein knocks most other pianists in the dust...so I can hardly concur with your "bit bloodless...in this as in everything" comment). The first pianist to make this sonata even sort of coherent for me was Egon Petri: I have a Columbia Special Products LP and a downloaded transfer of a later Westminster LP, plus I believe there are some live performances floating around. I've paid enough attention to Gilels' versions to know that I prefer his earlier Melodiya. Years ago, I was quite impressed upon first hearing Pollini's DGG and still have the LP set in my collection. And more recently, I too have enjoy listening to Levy. But I also have plenty of other doing the work (including two or more renditions by Richter...so why am I not recalling and gushing over one of his, I ask myself?). Apparently, I am in dire need of an op.106 spin-off session.

Dirk

G'day Dirk. For me Op 106 is the most enigmatic of the LvB sonatas. My first recording of it was actually Solomon on a World Record Club LP which I bought for his accompanying recording of the Pathetigue. Op 13 was what I wanted to listen to and the HK was put on the back burner. I only returned to it when I purchased the Barenboim recording (also on LP) but it was not initially DB who brought it to life for me. I'd had the privilege of hearing Brendel perform this live and I was just blown away. I went out and bought the DB (as Brendel wasn't available) and just loved Barenboim's Adagio.

Since then I've heard many recordings of Op 106. When I returned to Solomon (on CD) I auditioned it at my local record store. I started the audition with the adagio and knew that if I liked the opening two movements I had a winner. The adagio is one of the greatest slow movements ever written for piano IMO. Solomon is somewhat austere in I, playful in II but out of this world in III. The other III that grabbed me when I first heard it was Sokolov's.

III is in my own repertoire and I don't know how the top pianists make it work. It is so long so you have to maintain the tension throughout its entirety. I enjoy playing it but I suspect that if I made a recording of myself I would be very disappointed.

If I had to recommend a recording at this point in time it would be Sokolov.

Do you have Sokolov?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 01, 2010, 01:45:07 AM
Quote from: Holden on November 01, 2010, 01:14:39 AM
G'day Dirk. For me Op 106 is the most enigmatic of the LvB sonatas. My first recording of it was actually Solomon on a World Record Club LP which I bought for his accompanying recording of the Pathetigue. Op 13 was what I wanted to listen to and the HK was put on the back burner. I only returned to it when I purchased the Barenboim recording (also on LP) but it was not initially DB who brought it to life for me. I'd had the privilege of hearing Brendel perform this live and I was just blown away. I went out and bought the DB (as Brendel wasn't available) and just loved Barenboim's Adagio.

Since then I've heard many recordings of Op 106. When I returned to Solomon (on CD) I auditioned it at my local record store. I started the audition with the adagio and knew that if I liked the opening two movements I had a winner. The adagio is one of the greatest slow movements ever written for piano IMO. Solomon is somewhat austere in I, playful in II but out of this world in III. The other III that grabbed me when I first heard it was Sokolov's.

III is in my own repertoire and I don't know how the top pianists make it work. It is so long so you have to maintain the tension throughout its entirety. I enjoy playing it but I suspect that if I made a recording of myself I would be very disappointed.

If I had to recommend a recording at this point in time it would be Sokolov.

Do you have Sokolov?
Have you heard the Eschenbach on EMI (with 29-32)? He has one of the slowest Adagios I've ever heard (at just over 25 minutes).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on November 01, 2010, 07:31:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2010, 10:43:14 PM
You mean that it's the tempo Beethoven indicated, or that you like it at that tempo?

The youtube video matches the CBS/Sony recording I have, from the set of late sonatas.

I like the tempo because it's an allegro, and closer to what Beethoven indicated, 138 on the half note. Solomon is similar. Gulda and Pollini are even closer. Schnabel comes the closest, at like 136, but makes mistakes.

Unfortunately, Richter, Levy, Gilels, Kempff, etc, for all their other virtues, IMO do the exact wrong thing here and change the feel of the movement to grandness.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: zamyrabyrd on November 01, 2010, 07:54:05 AM
What do y'all think of Op. 110? I don't think I have ever sat down and played that piece to any degree of satisfaction. Here are some of the problems: the extreme range of the first movement, the "Scherzo" in 2 that a teacher said was from a drinking song, how to relate the recitatives to the mournful slow part(s) (partially borrowed from Bach), also NEVER got a right tempo for that, the fugue (not a conventional one for sure) and relating all of the above in the culmination at the end.

Actually, I like the inversion of the fugue in G major, this is the only part that sort of clicked.  I didn't find at least for myself the definitive performance yet.

ZB
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 01, 2010, 08:04:21 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 01, 2010, 07:54:05 AM
What do y'all think of Op. 110?

It's my favorite Beethoven sonata. My favorite performance of it is Serkin's 1960 recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on November 01, 2010, 08:15:57 AM
Quote from: George on November 01, 2010, 08:04:21 AM
It's my favorite Beethoven sonata. My favorite performance of it is Serkin's 1960 recording.

That's on unreleased studio recordings, correct? I must pick that up, but I keep putting it off because I only really want that recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 01, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on November 01, 2010, 08:15:57 AM
That's on unreleased studio recordings, correct? I must pick that up, but I keep putting it off because I only really want that recording.

Yes, it is.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 01, 2010, 09:04:18 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 31, 2010, 01:45:13 PM


Not bad: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15357.msg376026.html#msg376026 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15357.msg376026.html#msg376026).

Todd - thanks for the link - I assumed that you had heard this set and should have done a search!   :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Martin Lind on November 02, 2010, 04:13:29 PM
I have heard Schnabel, several times. Awfull sound of course, but interesting and intriguing. Then several performances in the Sony Beethoven box, a cycle, but with differant piano players. Then the Gulda cycle. Not my cup of tea. Some Gilels and Richter. Fine. Serkin for the last piano sonatas. Haven't heard that for a very long time.

In the last weeks I bought the very affordable Brendel box from Brilliant, with Brendels early recordings for Vanguard, Vox and Tournabot. An interesting set and I think these perfomances of the piano sonatas ( 1962 - 1964) are very fine and I enjoy that alot. I don't wether this is the "best" set but these recordings are deeply satisfieing.

Regards
Martin


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 02, 2010, 10:38:41 PM
So many Op 110s.

There's a recording by Edwin Fischer which is somehow very fine -- and the piano he uses sounds very beautiful.

Actually a couple of days ago I played Gould's -- the live one from Stockholm -- and I was extremely impressed. He's so "musicical", Gould --  in that Stoclholm concert he totally draws me in, convinces me.

I haven't compared it to the studio one.

Also Arrau's EMI is very special for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: canninator on November 04, 2010, 03:42:51 AM
The Annie Fischer set is kind of pricey so I thought I would buy a Gulda set but there seems to be a few around so I was looking for some clarification.

There is the set on Brilliant
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rxezrqg5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Then there is a set on Decca
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JJPv-iurL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and this one also
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HJBY61XVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Finally, the amadeo set appears to be pretty cheap on amazon.de
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Q983YGXYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Are these all different versions of the same thing? Are some better remasters than others.

Links are here

Amadeo
http://www.amazon.de/Klaviersonaten-1-32-Gesamtaufnahme-Friedrich-Gulda/dp/B000025NV8/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1288869860&sr=1-4 (http://www.amazon.de/Klaviersonaten-1-32-Gesamtaufnahme-Friedrich-Gulda/dp/B000025NV8/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1288869860&sr=1-4)

Brilliant
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sonatas-Complete-Ludwig-van/dp/B000B8WEL4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_h__1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sonatas-Complete-Ludwig-van/dp/B000B8WEL4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_h__1)

Decca sets
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-Concerto-Box/dp/B000BQV52A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288870323&sr=8-1-catcorr (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-Concerto-Box/dp/B000BQV52A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288870323&sr=8-1-catcorr)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/GULDA-PLAYS-BEETHOVEN-CONCERTOS-1968-1973/dp/B00004SA9B/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1288870417&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/GULDA-PLAYS-BEETHOVEN-CONCERTOS-1968-1973/dp/B00004SA9B/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1288870417&sr=1-1)

Any guidance here greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 03:44:45 AM
I think they might be the same thing, but I know for sure that the first two and the last one are all the same performance, just with different mastering.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 04:08:55 AM
Quote from: George on November 04, 2010, 03:44:45 AM
I think they might be the same thing, but I know for sure that the first two and the last one are all the same performance, just with different mastering.
Those are all the same. The most recent release (from 1953-54), on Orfeo, came out just this year. The third set is on Decca from the 50's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: canninator on November 04, 2010, 04:40:04 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 04:08:55 AM
Those are all the same. The most recent release (from 1953-54), on Orfeo, came out just this year. The third set is on Decca from the 50's.

I thought the brilliant set was the '67 cycle remastered from the amadeo? That would make sense if the amadeo is so cheap as it apparently has reverb added. Then the other two sets are the 50's cycle.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 04:41:03 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 04:08:55 AM
Those are all the same. The most recent release (from 1953-54), on Orfeo, came out just this year. The third set is on Decca from the 50's.

OK, thanks. It's worth noting that the Orfeo was his first set of the sonatas, with the Amadeo/Brilliant being his third. The second one was on Original Masters Decca.

I agree with Todd that the Amadeo/Brilliant is his best set. Luckily, it is also the cheapest and the easiest to find. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 04:43:58 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 04, 2010, 04:40:04 AM
I thought the brilliant set was the '67 cycle remastered from the amadeo?

Those two are different masterings of the same performances.

QuoteThat would make sense if the amadeo is so cheap as it apparently has reverb added. Then the other two sets are the 50's cycle.

No, the other two are the same performances, just reissued and likely remastered.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 05:02:36 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 04, 2010, 04:40:04 AM
I thought the brilliant set was the '67 cycle remastered from the amadeo? That would make sense if the amadeo is so cheap as it apparently has reverb added. Then the other two sets are the 50's cycle.
It is confusing. Why that one set has been licensed and re-licensed, I don't know. All four that you posted though, these are all the same recording.

The two I was referring to were these:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ICOVOqB1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21Xt6oI7PhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And here is a link you may find useful (by our very own Jens - maybe he knows the history better than I do): http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Beethoven_piano_cycles2.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Beethoven_piano_cycles2.htm)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 05:19:17 AM
Indeed it is confusing. All four posted by Furioso are the third (last) complete cycle by Gulda.

This one is the second complete set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ICOVOqB1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And this one is the first:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21Xt6oI7PhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 05:21:50 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 05:02:36 AM
It is confusing. Why that one set has been licensed and re-licensed, I don't know.

I could gue$$.

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: canninator on November 04, 2010, 05:22:13 AM
Quote from: George on November 04, 2010, 05:19:17 AM
Indeed it is confusing. All four posted by Furioso are the third (last) complete cycle by Gulda.

Okay, I got there in the end  :D

So is the Brilliant set is generally considered to be the best mastering of that cycle? How does the playing compare to the first and second cycles?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: canninator on November 04, 2010, 05:34:28 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 05:02:36 AM
And here is a link you may find useful (by our very own Jens - maybe he knows the history better than I do): http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Beethoven_piano_cycles2.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Beethoven_piano_cycles2.htm)

That was a really useful link thanks. Now I've decided I want the Kempff II, BackhausII , Arrau I, and Gulda II so maybe I shouldn't thank you that much  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 05:40:26 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 04, 2010, 05:34:28 AM
That was a really useful link thanks. Now I've decided I want the Kempff II, BackhausII , Arrau I, and Gulda II so maybe I shouldn't thank you that much  ;)

Just so you know, that survey by Jens isn't up to date, as his Gulda II is actually Gulda III.

Since he did that survey the Orfeo (Gulda I) has been released.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 06:00:07 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 04, 2010, 05:22:13 AM
Okay, I got there in the end  :D

So is the Brilliant set is generally considered to be the best mastering of that cycle? How does the playing compare to the first and second cycles?
Not having heard all the different masterings, I don't know. But I would choose from Decca Eloquence or Brilliant sets (as the most recent and remastered). I would imagine they are fine (and quick check on the clips will confirm for you). Perhaps someone who has heard more than one will be able to better guide you.

I don't really know the different Gulda's well enough to pick between them (especially the newest on Orfeo, which I haven't heard).

EDIT: I see that Sarge just posted a listen to the Decca version of the remastering in the listening thread - he may know more.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 06:21:38 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 04, 2010, 05:22:13 AM
So is the Brilliant set is generally considered to be the best mastering of that cycle? How does the playing compare to the first and second cycles?

The playing on the Brilliant/Amadeo set is better than the first cycle. I will add that the sound is better on the Brilliant/Amadeo too. I should also say that the style is not very different. I haven't heard the second one (Original Masters,) but since the other two are so close, I may not bother with it.

Whether the Brilliant is the best mastering, I am not sure, as I have not heard the Amadeo. The sound on the Brilliant is perfectly fine, though and certainly better than the Orfeo.     
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on November 04, 2010, 07:26:09 AM
Quote from: George on November 04, 2010, 05:40:26 AM
Just so you know, that survey by Jens isn't up to date, as his Gulda II is actually Gulda III.

Since he did that survey the Orfeo (Gulda I) has been released.

I will call it: "Gulda 0" :-)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 07:39:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 04, 2010, 07:26:09 AM
I will call it: "Gulda 0" :-)

Clever. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: canninator on November 04, 2010, 12:18:03 PM
Thanks George, ukrneal for your advice and jlaurson for the excellent site.

I went with Backhaus II and supplemented that with the DG 2CD set of the Pollini late sonatas. The Backhaus seems to be a good match for my musical personality and the Pollini seemed to good to pass up given that the only reservations in the Backhaus appear to be in the late sonatas.

Strange that I've never bought a complete cycle given the amount of classical period stuff I have for guitar.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 02:11:34 PM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 04, 2010, 12:18:03 PM
Thanks George, ukrneal for your advice and jlaurson for the excellent site.

I went with Backhaus II and supplemented that with the DG 2CD set of the Pollini late sonatas. The Backhaus seems to be a good match for my musical personality and the Pollini seemed to good to pass up given that the only reservations in the Backhaus appear to be in the late sonatas.

Strange that I've never bought a complete cycle given the amount of classical period stuff I have for guitar.
Congratulations! Hope you enjoy them.  I like the Pollini as well - you always feel that you are in the presence of someone who has given them a lot of thought. Of course, there are lots of good versions these days. Don't forget to report back - very interested in your reaction.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on November 04, 2010, 04:09:35 PM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 04, 2010, 12:18:03 PM
Thanks George, ukrneal for your advice and jlaurson for the excellent site.

I went with Backhaus II and supplemented that with the DG 2CD set of the Pollini late sonatas. The Backhaus seems to be a good match for my musical personality and the Pollini seemed to good to pass up given that the only reservations in the Backhaus appear to be in the late sonatas.

Strange that I've never bought a complete cycle given the amount of classical period stuff I have for guitar.

Good choices. If someone pried all but two sets of LvB from my dead, cold hands, those would be the ones that remain.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 15, 2010, 10:37:33 AM
Looks like a couple more cycles are either now or soon to be available in affordable boxes:

First is Louie Lortie.  I didn't know he finished the cycle.  Looks like I'll be buying this soon, as in today or tomorrow.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BA7K5UAML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


The other is by one Peter Takacs, a name new to me.  It comes out in January.  Should I buy, I wonder?


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KKpV3ZaLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 22, 2010, 03:09:12 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 15, 2010, 10:37:33 AM
Looks like a couple more cycles are either now or soon to be available in affordable boxes:

First is Louie Lortie.  I didn't know he finished the cycle.  Looks like I'll be buying this soon, as in today or tomorrow.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BA7K5UAML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Todd - will be interested in your comments on the Lortie cycle - just read Scott Morrison's review on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Louis-Lortie-Complete-Beethoven-Sonatas/dp/B0040MF1XK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290470092&sr=1-1) - he gave the box a 4*/5 rating w/ some reservations regarding the different recording periods, and also the opinion that this would not be a first choice.  I've enjoyed Lortie in other performances, esp. of the French composers, so will be curious of the thoughts of our LvB experts here -  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 22, 2010, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 22, 2010, 03:09:12 PM
Todd - will be interested in your comments on the Lortie cycle - just read Scott Morrison's review on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Louis-Lortie-Complete-Beethoven-Sonatas/dp/B0040MF1XK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290470092&sr=1-1) - he gave the box a 4*/5 rating w/ some reservations regarding the different recording periods, and also the opinion that this would not be a first choice.  I've enjoyed Lortie in other performances, esp. of the French composers, so will be curious of the thoughts of our LvB experts here -  :D
I'm interested as well, especially as I have a disc of Lortie playing various variations for piano, and they are quite good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on November 23, 2010, 06:32:58 PM
I hadn't listened to Annie Fischer's sonata set for awhile, so over the last week I did.  It was triggered by watching her fantastic performance of the Emperor concerto on youtube. As always, I am amazed by the quality and depth of her playing in the sonatas. For me it is the most consistent of all the Beethoven sonata sets I have heard. What a great musician. By the way, Amazon U.S. lists the box set for $18--obviously a misprint for this very expensive set, but might be worth a try to see if you could get it for that! :)   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on November 23, 2010, 07:04:15 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 23, 2010, 06:32:58 PM
I hadn't listened to Annie Fischer's sonata set for awhile, so over the last week I did.  It was triggered by watching her fantastic performance of the Emperor concerto on youtube. As always, I am amazed by the quality and depth of her playing in the sonatas. For me it is the most consistent of all the Beethoven sonata sets I have heard. What a great musician. By the way, Amazon U.S. lists the box set for $18--obviously a misprint for this very expensive set, but might be worth a try to see if you could get it for that! :)   

Good lord. For that price, I'd consider getting a second copy.
:o

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 23, 2010, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: dirkronk on November 23, 2010, 07:04:15 PM
Good lord. For that price, I'd consider getting a second copy.
:o

Dirk

...they'd make nice stocking stuffers.   0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on November 23, 2010, 07:17:31 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 23, 2010, 06:32:58 PM
I hadn't listened to Annie Fischer's sonata set for awhile, so over the last week I did.  It was triggered by watching her fantastic performance of the Emperor concerto on youtube. As always, I am amazed by the quality and depth of her playing in the sonatas. For me it is the most consistent of all the Beethoven sonata sets I have heard. What a great musician. By the way, Amazon U.S. lists the box set for $18--obviously a misprint for this very expensive set, but might be worth a try to see if you could get it for that! :)   

But Amazon reserves the right to cancel an order after the recording in question is not available for a period of time.  That happened to me once before.  So until one receives the email saying the order has been shipped, nothing can be taken for granted ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 23, 2010, 09:34:37 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 23, 2010, 06:32:58 PM
I hadn't listened to Annie Fischer's sonata set for awhile, so over the last week I did.  It was triggered by watching her fantastic performance of the Emperor concerto on youtube. As always, I am amazed by the quality and depth of her playing in the sonatas. For me it is the most consistent of all the Beethoven sonata sets I have heard. What a great musician. By the way, Amazon U.S. lists the box set for $18--obviously a misprint for this very expensive set, but might be worth a try to see if you could get it for that! :)   
Appears to be up to $52, which is still a good price for this set. I've rarely seen it below $100! But it is out of stock, so who knows...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 28, 2010, 11:17:31 AM
Looks like Garrick Ohlsson's cycle will have the final volume released next month.  I'm thinking I may wait for the inevitable box set to come out before I buy. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Philoctetes on November 29, 2010, 07:24:55 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 28, 2010, 11:17:31 AM
Looks like Garrick Ohlsson's cycle will have the final volume released next month.  I'm thinking I may wait for the inevitable box set to come out before I buy.

I'm sure you'll end up purchasing it anyway, but I've been, personally, underwhelmed by Ohlsson's playing. (But I also don't really know the works, as you do, so I could be missing something or a lot.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on November 30, 2010, 11:32:07 AM
I just ordered the "new" budget ($27 from Amazon) release by Musical Concepts of the Schnabel box set of sonatas. My experience with Musical Concepts/Alto has been very positive in terms of remastering. Since I hadn't ever replaced my lp set of the Schnabel I think this might be the time. I'll report on them in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on November 30, 2010, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 30, 2010, 11:32:07 AM
Since I hadn't ever replaced my lp set of the Schnabel I think this might be the time.

Yep. Oldnslow seems just about the right moniker.  :D

Welcome BTW.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on November 30, 2010, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 30, 2010, 11:32:07 AM
I just ordered the "new" budget ($27 from Amazon) release by Musical Concepts of the Schnabel box set of sonatas. My experience with Musical Concepts/Alto has been very positive in terms of remastering. Since I hadn't ever replaced my lp set of the Schnabel I think this might be the time. I'll report on them in a few weeks.

It seems there are 30 sec samples on Napster

http://music.napster.com/artur-schnabel-music/album/beethoven%3A-complete-piano-sonatas/14001128

Although given the price, perhaps the recordings are mixed up from the emi release.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on November 30, 2010, 06:21:40 PM
Thanks. The samples don't sound half bad. I'm looking forward to reacquainting myself with Mr. Schnabel and Beethoven........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 30, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 30, 2010, 06:21:40 PM
Thanks. The samples don't sound half bad. I'm looking forward to reacquainting myself with Mr. Schnabel and Beethoven........

I am not sure if I posted this here, but I have uploaded 60 second samples of 5 different CD transfers (EMI, Pearl, Naxos, Nuovo Era and Dante) from the central movement of the Moonlight Sonata here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on November 30, 2010, 08:20:06 PM
Quote from: George on November 30, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
I am not sure if I posted this here, but I have uploaded 60 second samples of 5 different CD transfers (EMI, Pearl, Naxos, Nuovo Era and Dante) from the central movement of the Moonlight Sonata here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj

Thanks for that, great to hear. I wonder if the pearl will ever be rereleased. Utterly ridiculous that in our age of digital media, one cannot acquire recordings through an online store. Instead, we have to take out a loan to acquire the out of print cds. 

I hope someone eventually posts it on demonoid. There, I said it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on December 01, 2010, 01:44:56 PM
Thanks. What are your impressions, if you have heard them, of Schnabel's collection of Schubert recordings on Music and Arts?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 01, 2010, 02:23:37 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 01, 2010, 01:44:56 PM
Thanks. What are your impressions, if you have heard them, of Schnabel's collection of Schubert recordings on Music and Arts?

I haven't really digested it yet, but the mastering is superb. What I have heard I have enjoyed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on December 01, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 30, 2010, 11:32:07 AM
I just ordered the "new" budget ($27 from Amazon) release by Musical Concepts of the Schnabel box set of sonatas. My experience with Musical Concepts/Alto has been very positive in terms of remastering. Since I hadn't ever replaced my lp set of the Schnabel I think this might be the time. I'll report on them in a few weeks.

I would welcome a modern remastering!  :) Does Musical Concepts/Alto by your knowledge transfers from 78 rpm? Because if not, most likely and common transfers around are from the LP reissue that must have run out of copyright in Europe.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 02, 2010, 03:40:59 AM
Quote from: Que on December 01, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
I would welcome a modern remastering!  :) Does Musical Concepts/Alto by your knowledge transfers from 78 rpm? Because if not, most likely and common transfers around are from the LP reissue that must have run out of copyright in Europe.

Q

The Richter material that first appeared on Olympia and then was licensed by Regis has now been licensed again by Alto. I don't think that Alto does their own transfers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on December 02, 2010, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: George on December 02, 2010, 03:40:59 AM
The Richter material that first appeared on Olympia and then was licensed by Regis has now been licensed again by Alto. I don't think that Alto does their own transfers.

I have two CDs from Alto;  both state they were remastered by Paul Arden-Taylor.  One is a Shostakovich recording (VC 2, with Oistrakh, paired with Symphony 15; Kondrashin conducting the Moscow Philharmonic in both works) that was apparently licensed from somewhere in Eastern Europe;  the other (Brendel playing Mozart PCs 17 and 27--originally a Vox recording)  says:
remastered from analogue by Classic Sound, New York
Re-compiled/re-mastered for alto by Paul Arden-Taylor

SQ on the Mozart is fine; SQ on the Shostakovich is not so fine, especially on the violin concerto--although I think the fault there was in the original tapes, since it sounds as if all the mikes were placed close to the soloist, and the orchestra then placed on the opposite side of the room.   Even with the bad SQ, it's still an interesting recording, and since it was recorded in 1967--meaning at the same time or within a few weeks of the work's premiere--is probably the concerto's earliest recording.

The Shostakovich CD, btw, gives an URL for Arden-Taylor: www.dinmore-records.co.uk
ETA:  Ah, having checked the Dinmore site--it's a very small English label, for which he records as performer on the oboe and recorder;  audio engineering is a recent avocation.
Dinmore itself apparently has no connection to alto.
ETA 2: Listening to the Shostakovich concerto now.  SQ is better than I remembered it being.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 02, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
Quote from: Que on December 01, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
I would welcome a modern remastering!  :)

Have you heard the Naxos?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on December 03, 2010, 02:02:18 PM
The Schanbel set from Musical Concepts arrived today. They are apparantly a reissue from Nuova Era, and do use the Cedar system. In any event, they sound fine to me--very clear and for the age of the recordings I have no complaints. It is very nice to hear these great performances again.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on December 03, 2010, 07:43:31 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 03, 2010, 02:02:18 PM
The Schanbel set from Musical Concepts arrived today. They are apparantly a reissue from Nuova Era, and do use the Cedar system. In any event, they sound fine to me--very clear and for the age of the recordings I have no complaints. It is very nice to hear these great performances again.

I am perfectly happy with my Schnabel's Complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas on Naxos Historical ...   ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on December 06, 2010, 02:08:15 PM
OK, kids and kiddies who are lovers of Beethoven's complete piano sonatas, I have a little question for you. Since Beethoven wrote 32 sonatas, and I'd argue that at least 30 of them are either masterpieces or near masterpieces (excluding Op.49, which he might not have even wanted published), which three contiguous sonatas (either under a single opus number or three consecutive opus numbers) are your favorites and why?  I suspect many folks might choose Opus 53-57 or Opus 109-111, but I would choose Opus 31. These sonatas are all brilliant, have great variety melodically and rhythmically, and  convey many emotions, from joy, to humor, to pathos, and I never get tired of listening to them. What say you?   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 06, 2010, 03:14:06 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 06, 2010, 02:08:15 PMbut I would choose Opus 31. These sonatas are all brilliant, have great variety melodically and rhythmically, and  convey many emotions, from joy, to humor, to pathos, and I never get tired of listening to them.



Op 31 for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 06, 2010, 03:29:14 PM
Op. 109-111
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 06, 2010, 08:22:47 PM
Apologies if this has been mentioned already (long thread) but has anybody been keeping up with the David Allen Wehr yet-to-be-completed cycle on Connoisseur Society? (http://www.connoisseursociety.com/excerpt.htm)

Judging by CS's samples this is some major piano playing here (especially the late sonatas)!

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 06, 2010, 09:40:14 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 06, 2010, 02:08:15 PM
OK, kids and kiddies who are lovers of Beethoven's complete piano sonatas, I have a little question for you. Since Beethoven wrote 32 sonatas, and I'd argue that at least 30 of them are either masterpieces or near masterpieces (excluding Op.49, which he might not have even wanted published), which three contiguous sonatas (either under a single opus number or three consecutive opus numbers) are your favorites and why?  I suspect many folks might choose Opus 53-57 or Opus 109-111, but I would choose Opus 31. These sonatas are all brilliant, have great variety melodically and rhythmically, and  convey many emotions, from joy, to humor, to pathos, and I never get tired of listening to them. What say you?
This is not an uninteresting question, just not sure this is the place to ask it. If you allow it, I would pick 106, 109, 110. I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 06, 2010, 10:38:14 PM
13, 14, 15
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 06, 2010, 10:41:09 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 06, 2010, 08:22:47 PM
Apologies if this has been mentioned already (long thread) but has anybody been keeping up with the David Allen Wehr yet-to-be-completed cycle on Connoisseur Society? (http://www.connoisseursociety.com/excerpt.htm)

Judging by CS's samples this is some major piano playing here (especially the late sonatas)!
Interesting  - as I had never heard of these before. I believe, however, that it is completed. I counted 32 and one of the reviews of #4 refers to it as the final volume. Thanks for mentioning these and I hope someone will comment on them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on December 07, 2010, 02:57:47 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 06, 2010, 08:22:47 PM
Apologies if this has been mentioned already (long thread) but has anybody been keeping up with the David Allen Wehr yet-to-be-completed cycle on Connoisseur Society? (http://www.connoisseursociety.com/excerpt.htm)

Judging by CS's samples this is some major piano playing here (especially the late sonatas)!

"yet to be completed"? ? ? I have the complete cycle, and had it for some time.

See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 07, 2010, 03:36:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 07, 2010, 02:57:47 AM
"yet to be completed"? ? ? I have the complete cycle, and had it for some time.

See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html)
What did you think of it? I'd be particularly interested in volume 4.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 07, 2010, 05:16:53 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on December 06, 2010, 10:41:09 PM
I believe, however, that it is completed. I counted 32 and one of the reviews of #4 refers to it as the final volume.

Ah, sleepy/late night posting led to negligence. :-X

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 07, 2010, 05:19:43 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 07, 2010, 02:57:47 AM
"yet to be completed"? ? ? I have the complete cycle, and had it for some time.

See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html)

Okay, Einstein. So tell us what you think of it!

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on December 07, 2010, 05:30:46 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 07, 2010, 05:19:43 AM
Okay, Einstein. So tell us what you think of it!

First (and only) impression was favorable (but hey, it's Beethoven, after all)... but no particular opinion about it yet. I'll pop in volume 4 this week and report back.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on December 11, 2010, 03:16:56 PM
It was fun listening to the "new"Schnabel set on Musical Concepts. Basically pretty good sound considering the source material (some slight pitch issues but nothing major, and a couple of very brief moments of drop outs/distortion). Well worth the minimal outlay for this classic set. I was reminded of the swift tempos Schnabel chose, most of which work very well (the exception being the first movement of Op.106, which is simply too fast). Listening again to this set it is hard to overestimate the influence these performances must have had on other musicians. I expect what we take for granted in Beethoven playing today hardly existed before Schnabel, at least with regard to what would have then been  the lesser known works. Next it is on to the concertos (with Sargeant on Naxos, and the 4th and 5th Schnabel recorded with Stock in Chicago in 1942.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on December 20, 2010, 08:16:43 AM
After seeing mention here I checked out samples of Brautigam's recording of the Hammerklavier on fortepiano.  I am intrigued.  (The sample gives a good impression of the sound of the instrument, obviously the performance cannot be judged without hearing the thing in its entirety.)  In any case, I've put in an order for volumes 7 and 8, which cover the late sonatas.  The claim that the late sonatas demand the modern piano can be questioned, I think.  I tend to find the sound of the piano too big, rather than not big enough, in recordings of those works.  Maybe Beethoven wouldn't have demanded all that banging if he had an instrument that could produce a stronger sound.  The more intimate sound of the forte-piano might be just the thing!  (runs away)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2010, 08:23:35 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 20, 2010, 08:16:43 AM
After seeing mention here I checked out samples of Brautigam's recording of the Hammerklavier on fortepiano.  I am intrigued.  (The sample gives a good impression of the sound of the instrument, obviously the performance cannot be judged without hearing the thing in its entirety.)  In any case, I've put in an order for volumes 7 and 8, which cover the late sonatas.  The claim that the late sonatas demand the modern piano can be questioned, I think.  I tend to find the sound of the piano too big, rather than not big enough, in recordings of those works.  Maybe Beethoven wouldn't have demanded all that banging if he had an instrument that could produce a stronger sound.  The more intimate sound of the forte-piano might be just the thing!  (runs away)
I have to admit that I also listened to some of the samples and was intrigued as well. I'll be interested to hear what you think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on December 20, 2010, 08:24:18 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 20, 2010, 08:16:43 AM
After seeing mention here I checked out samples of Brautigam's recording of the Hammerklavier on fortepiano.  I am intrigued.  (The sample gives a good impression of the sound of the instrument, obviously the performance cannot be judged without hearing the thing in its entirety.)  In any case, I've put in an order for volumes 7 and 8, which cover the late sonatas.  The claim that the late sonatas demand the modern piano can be questioned, I think.  I tend to find the sound of the piano too big, rather than not big enough, in recordings of those works.  Maybe Beethoven wouldn't have demanded all that banging if he had an instrument that could produce a stronger sound.  The more intimate sound of the forte-piano might be just the thing!  (runs away)

No need to run!  ;D 8)

As for the late sonatas on fortepiano Paul Komen's recordings on Globe (unfortunately an as yet incomplete cycle) are worth your investigation.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510sHpkgg1L._SS500_.jpg)

SAMPLES (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002OBLB0Q/sr=1-1/qid=1292865713/ref=sr_1_1_digr?ie=UTF8&qid=1292865713&sr=1-1)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on January 23, 2011, 10:58:41 AM
Are these three that are on this set:

[asin]B00009LW30[/asin]

Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor ("Moonlight"), Op. 27/2

Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor ("Pathétique"), Op. 13

Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor ("Appassionata"), Op. 57

the same as the recordings on this set:

[asin]B0000012XC[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on January 23, 2011, 01:01:34 PM
Recently listened to No 32, Op 111 by Lortie

[asin]B0040MF1XK[/asin]

I've always enjoyed the first movement, but I think this is the first time I have really appreciated the second movement variations.  I enjoy Lortie's way with the music, but the point is I decided that I would listen to the piece over and over until I figured it out, and it worked.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: RJR on January 23, 2011, 02:45:20 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 06, 2010, 02:08:15 PM
OK, kids and kiddies who are lovers of Beethoven's complete piano sonatas, I have a little question for you. Since Beethoven wrote 32 sonatas, and I'd argue that at least 30 of them are either masterpieces or near masterpieces (excluding Op.49, which he might not have even wanted published), which three contiguous sonatas (either under a single opus number or three consecutive opus numbers) are your favorites and why?  I suspect many folks might choose Opus 53-57 or Opus 109-111, but I would choose Opus 31. These sonatas are all brilliant, have great variety melodically and rhythmically, and  convey many emotions, from joy, to humor, to pathos, and I never get tired of listening to them. What say you?

Love the Opus 10s as well. In fact, my first purchase ever was Wilhelm Kempff's stereo recording of those works. I bought them by mistake. I was looking for the first Barenboim  recording of the Hammerklavier (Op. 106) and the Kempff front cover said klaviersonaten. So I figured that was what I was looking for. Rookie mistake.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: RJR on January 23, 2011, 02:46:39 PM
Opus 10 for me. My first classical record purchase. Wilhelm Kempff. Still have it 43 years later.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 25, 2011, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 23, 2011, 10:58:41 AM
Are these three that are on this set:

[asin]B00009LW30[/asin]

Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor ("Moonlight"), Op. 27/2

Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor ("Pathétique"), Op. 13

Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor ("Appassionata"), Op. 57

the same as the recordings on this set:

[asin]B0000012XC[/asin]

No. The former were all from 1955, while the latter were recorded in 1953, 56 and 51.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on January 25, 2011, 07:10:49 PM
Quote from: George on January 25, 2011, 06:44:47 PM
No. The former were all from 1955, while the latter were recorded in 1953, 56 and 51.

Wow!  This is interesting.  thanks, buddy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 25, 2011, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 25, 2011, 07:10:49 PM
Wow!  This is interesting.  thanks, buddy.

You're welcome!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 06:40:01 PM
I have a potential remedy for those of you who are bothered by too much hiss and surface noise on old recordings: transfer the cds to VCR Hi-Fi tapes. Six hours or two hours, your choice. It's not 100 percent but it will help.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on January 29, 2011, 03:43:12 AM
I hope you won't find much in the way of hiss and crackle on my transcriptions of  the Artur Schnabel cycle (in the early stages, Two Volumes only made public, I do have the complete 12 Album set) which you will find on
www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 29, 2011, 03:47:53 AM
Quote from: early grey on January 29, 2011, 03:43:12 AM
I hope you won't find much in the way of hiss and crackle on my transcriptions of  the Artur Schnabel cycle (in the early stages, Two Volumes only made public, I do have the complete 12 Album set) which you will find on
www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk

True, but as is the case with transfers of 78s that opt for little or no hiss, the piano tone suffers, resulting in a muffled sound in the upper frequencies.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2011, 04:21:14 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 06, 2010, 02:08:15 PM
....which three contiguous sonatas (either under a single opus number or three consecutive opus numbers) are your favorites and why

Op.10/3 (because of the gorgeous Largo), op.13 (because it's my favorite Beethoven sonata) and op.14/1....because it comes next  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on January 29, 2011, 07:39:43 AM
I hope, George, that you will give my Schnabel efforts a considered listening, especially for that muffled tone.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 29, 2011, 07:51:38 AM
Quote from: early grey on January 29, 2011, 07:39:43 AM
I hope, George, that you will give my Schnabel efforts a considered listening, especially for that muffled tone.

Earlier, I listened to the entirety of the first movement through decent headphones. Other than the upper frequencies, which are muffled compared to the Naxos and Pearl transfers of these performances, I think the sound is excellent. However, for me the those upper frequencies are very important to the overall sound picture, especially with piano recordings. I'd rather have more noise and more of those upper frequencies.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on January 29, 2011, 09:07:17 AM
Thank you, George. I'll see what I can do with the next Volume.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 29, 2011, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: early grey on January 29, 2011, 09:07:17 AM
Thank you, George. I'll see what I can do with the next Volume.

I'd love to hear it.  :)

I have uploaded 60 second samples of the Schnabel Beethoven from 5 different transfers here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on January 31, 2011, 10:33:36 AM
Well, MediaFire, hey! that was an experience. Intrusive ads, surplus screens appearing, pop-up blocking all the time but at last the five samples were downloaded. Has anybody else listened? First response was that Dante, EMI and Nuovo Era were acceptable but the noise on Naxos and Pearl was too intrusive without any obvious benefit in brilliance of the sound. I then put the first two and a half seconds of each sample through a noise-reduction sampler which sums the frequency content of the music. The acceptable three gave a graph with intensity falling steadily with increasing frequency as you would expect all music to do. The Naxos plot showed more (!) noise at the very highest frequencies than at lower but still high frequencies. The Pearl showed the noise/music content rising instead of falling at a highish frequency. not what you'd expect. Listening more extensively you become aware of a whooshing in the background of the Nuovo Era take. The EMI seems to be better balanced with a warmer bass as you would expect (they should know what equalisation was used) however this brings with it more bass content to the background. Dante was also well-balanced. My thanks to George for his contribution to my education.  What did I do next?, well just a suggestion, but I went to my site
                                                www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk
                                                                            (forgive the reminder) and put on Sonata No.4 in E flat major. The graph for this gave the same pattern as the three similar ones above. No offence taken if it doesn't appeal!
                                   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 31, 2011, 10:38:08 AM
Quote from: early grey on January 31, 2011, 10:33:36 AM
Well, MediaFire, hey! that was an experience. Intrusive ads, surplus screens appearing, pop-up blocking all the time but at last the five samples were downloaded. Has anybody else listened? First response was that Dante, EMI and Nuovo Era were acceptable but the noise on Naxos and Pearl was too intrusive without any obvious benefit in brilliance of the sound. I then put the first two and a half seconds of each sample through a noise-reduction sampler which sums the frequency content of the music. The acceptable three gave a graph with intensity falling steadily with increasing frequency as you would expect all music to do. The Naxos plot showed more (!) noise at the very highest frequencies than at lower but still high frequencies. The Pearl showed the noise/music content rising instead of falling at a highish frequency. not what you'd expect. Listening more extensively you become aware of a whooshing in the background of the Nuovo Era take. The EMI seems to be better balanced with a warmer bass as you would expect (they should know what equalisation was used) however this brings with it more bass content to the background. Dante was also well-balanced. My thanks to George for his contribution to my education.  What did I do next?, well just a suggestion, but I went to my site
                                                www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk
                                                                            (forgive the reminder) and put on Sonata No.4 in E flat major. The graph for this gave the same pattern as the three similar ones above. No offence taken if it doesn't appeal!
                                 

Thanks for listening.

So of the five, what was your favorite? There were two EMI Samples.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on January 31, 2011, 10:47:12 AM
Quote from: early grey on January 31, 2011, 10:33:36 AM
Well, MediaFire, hey! that was an experience. Intrusive ads, surplus screens appearing, pop-up blocking all the time but at last the five samples were downloaded. Has anybody else listened? First response was that Dante, EMI and Nuovo Era were acceptable but the noise on Naxos and Pearl was too intrusive without any obvious benefit in brilliance of the sound. I then put the first two and a half seconds of each sample through a noise-reduction sampler which sums the frequency content of the music. The acceptable three gave a graph with intensity falling steadily with increasing frequency as you would expect all music to do. The Naxos plot showed more (!) noise at the very highest frequencies than at lower but still high frequencies. The Pearl showed the noise/music content rising instead of falling at a highish frequency. not what you'd expect. Listening more extensively you become aware of a whooshing in the background of the Nuovo Era take. The EMI seems to be better balanced with a warmer bass as you would expect (they should know what equalisation was used) however this brings with it more bass content to the background. Dante was also well-balanced. My thanks to George for his contribution to my education.  What did I do next?, well just a suggestion, but I went to my site
                                                www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk
                                                                            (forgive the reminder) and put on Sonata No.4 in E flat major. The graph for this gave the same pattern as the three similar ones above. No offence taken if it doesn't appeal!
                                 

I must tell you that I thoroughly enjoyed your website, which you have put together in very fine form.  The page devoted to your father was very touching and conjured up a warm picture of a delightful man.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on February 01, 2011, 01:38:15 AM
George,  the most listenable was the one you labelled "EMI". It all comes down to whether you like to hear the music through a veil of hiss which hints at greater frequency range without actually guaranteeing it or as in my case forgoing this for the benefits of a greater dynamic range and  clarity. I do not use any top-cut as such in my processing  and although some high frequencies may be diminished in intensity my guess is that they are still present. At the very least an alternative way of enjoying great music is available. Freedom of choice!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 01, 2011, 05:01:52 AM
Always depressing when a discussion of Beethoven Piano Sonatas degenerates to a discussion of hiss.  Maybe we can bracing discussion of whether god exists will help us break out of it.   0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 10:04:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/ffesxg5K5NQ

This Waldstein from 1970 shows quite a lot about Argerich's art at its worst.

It's really exciting in the first movement -- but so what? Her Waldstein is just that -- a cheap thrill. She's got very little to say with the music -- it's not quite typing but not far off. She's fast. The articulation is clean, somewhere between staccato and legato. There are one or two seconds of unusual balances. But that's not enough to make this music into anything interesting.

Admittedly this is a hard movement to make interesting (it's a bit repetitive!) But there are some fantastic performances on record -- she's just not up to it. She's not wayward enough in fact -- she's too firmly on the rails. I kept imagining what Ernst Levy or Claudio Arrau must have thought if they had heard her play it.

Don't get me wrong -- I like some of the recordings: the Bach Toccata and Partita, the Chopin mazurkas and sonata released last year by DG (historic material previously in the archives), the Brahms duet with Zilberstein, The Mendelssohn 1st trio.

But mostly she's not a favourite.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on February 06, 2011, 10:46:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 10:04:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/ffesxg5K5NQ

This Waldstein from 1970 shows quite a lot about Argerich's art at its worst.

It's really exciting in the first movement -- but so what? Her Waldstein is just that -- a cheap thrill. She's got very little to say with the music -- it's not quite typing but not far off. She's fast. The articulation is clean, somewhere between staccato and legato. There are one or two seconds of unusual balances. But that's not enough to make this music into anything interesting.

Admittedly this is a hard movement to make interesting (it's a bit repetitive!) But there are some fantastic performances on record -- she's just not up to it. She's not wayward enough in fact -- she's too firmly on the rails. I kept imagining what Ernst Levy or Claudio Arrau must have thought if they had heard her play it.

Don't get me wrong -- I like some of the recordings: the Bach Toccata and Partita, the Chopin mazurkas and sonata released last year by DG (historic material previously in the archives), the Brahms duet with Zilberstein, The Mendelssohn 1st trio.

But mostly she's not a favourite.

Agree about Argerich's Beethoven, and I share your general impression of her playing. However, I remember really liking some of her early Schumann recordings (Kinderszenen, Kreisleriana). Time for me to revisit those early favorites, now that I have listened to quite a few other recordings of those works.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 10:51:48 AM
I've just noticed I posted on the wrong thread -- sorry :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 06, 2011, 11:44:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 10:04:59 AM
Admittedly this is a hard movement to make interesting
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

That said, that's a really insensitive performance for sure. I would have expected much, much better out of someone that well-respected.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 06, 2011, 11:54:37 AM
Argerich is not known for being sensitive, she is known for brilliance, which is present in fair measure here.  And criticizing a pianist of that level of talent based on a crappy youtube transfer of a live tape from 1970 strike me as ridiculous.  Par for the course.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 12:19:53 PM
Oh I think she can be very sensitive -- in the Chopin B minor sonata and mazurkas issued on DG  last year.  And she can be wonderfully spontaneous, like in this Chopin Ballade from a Carnegie Hall recital in 1981. Also I would say she is a very great  Bach pianists.


http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=ad67744



But not in that Beethoven. Her performance is  flat. Limited dynamic contrasts; limited contrasts of tempo; relatively unnuanced; boring phrasing. I just listened to Ernst Levy to remind me how this can sound.

And I actually thought the sound on that youtube was very good!




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on February 06, 2011, 12:27:43 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 12:19:53 PM
Oh I think she can be very sensitive -- in the Chopin B minor sonata and mazurkas issued on DG  last year.  And she can be wonderfully spontaneous, like in this Chopin Ballade from a Carnegie Hall recital in 1981.


http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=ad67744



But not in this case. Her performance is  flat. Limited dynamic contrasts; limited contrasts of tempo; relatively unnuanced; boring phrasing.

And I actually thought the sound on that youtube was very good!

I'd also say that the Schumann recordings I referred to are characterized by high sensitivity. Perhaps the surprising thing is how unsensitive she can sound on some occasions - given an artist of her stature. Perhaps one is expecting too much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on February 06, 2011, 12:30:21 PM
Jet lag flying to Tokyo....month of February, so possibly the flu (my wife and son have it and I just got over it)....etc.  Who knows? :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 06, 2011, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 12:19:53 PM
Oh I think she can be very sensitive

Agreed - I have heard her Ravel!  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Bogey on February 06, 2011, 12:30:21 PM
Jet lag flying to Tokyo....month of February, so possibly the flu (my wife and son have it and I just got over it)....etc.  Who knows? :)

Too charitable. There are other recordings which are similarly disappointing I think. The Mozart PC 20 I would say. And some Chopin too. Nocturnes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on February 06, 2011, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 01:01:41 PM
Too charitable. There are other recordings which are similarly disappointing I think. The Mozart PC 20 I would say. And some Chopin too. Nocturnes.

Chicken pox? ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ccar on February 06, 2011, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 10:04:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/ffesxg5K5NQ

                              She's fast.

           
           Some other, faster ;D, Waldsteins ...


http://www.youtube.com/v/f3nnYGPZlp0 http://www.youtube.com/v/SEn7Asy5w74
http://www.youtube.com/v/Fuz4xLVWa0A http://www.youtube.com/v/X0WhOhUbZLI&playnext=1&list=PLC45C5884240FB976
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 06, 2011, 05:00:30 PM
I have all four of those Waldstein's and would like to comment.

The Schnabel is the poorest in my opinion. He struggles in places to get the necessary articulation

Next on the ladder for me is the Gulda - an exciting first movement but the other two movements don't get the necessary time to 'breathe'.

The Cziffra is the reverse. The first movement, like the Argerich, doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It's fast but it's also like it's jogging on the spot.

The Tomsic (thanks you for including this) is one of my all time favourites of this work. Onward imeptus with brilliant articulation in Movement I, a well considered Introduzione and a rondo that lives up to it's name.

You might consider this as well. It was  my introduction to this work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfqNXgsOP50

However, this is the one to listen to (and I know George will agree).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8R0dPWVod8


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 06, 2011, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 06, 2011, 05:00:30 PM
However, this is the one to listen to (and I know George will agree).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8R0dPWVod8

Indeed I will.

I will add a plug for the Casimir live recording by Josef Hofmann.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 09:44:15 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 06, 2011, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on Today at 11:04:59 AM
Admittedly this is a hard movement to make interesting

Quote from: Brian on Today at 12:44:27 PM
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???


I said that because it's  so repetitious. One of the reasons I like Ernst Levy in this is that he finds lots of ways to ring the changes. Colours, phrasing, articulation.

BTW I think fortepianos can help with the first movement -- the dry percussive tone seems to suit the music. I like Komen most, I think. The piano sounds so bang bang thud thud it's wonderful. This music sounds good to me when you take it far away from the slickness of a Steinway 88.


Quote from: Holden on February 06, 2011, 05:00:30 PM
I have all four of those Waldstein's and would like to comment.

The Schnabel is the poorest in my opinion. He struggles in places to get the necessary articulation


Can you say a bit more? You mean in the first movement?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 07, 2011, 12:36:05 AM
Schnabel's left hand and right hands just don't match up in a number of places in I. The left hand is in time but the right hand is struggling to keep up. There are a number of instances of sloppy RH passage work. This is also observable in his recording of the Hammerklavier
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2011, 07:11:00 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 07, 2011, 12:36:05 AM
Schnabel's left hand and right hands just don't match up in a number of places in I. The left hand is in time but the right hand is struggling to keep up. There are a number of instances of sloppy RH passage work. This is also observable in his recording of the Hammerklavier

I quite like what he does with it. Very much so. I expect he would have rerecorded more of those sonatas if he could have.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 07, 2011, 08:51:58 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 07, 2011, 12:36:05 AM
Schnabel's left hand and right hands just don't match up in a number of places in I. The left hand is in time but the right hand is struggling to keep up. There are a number of instances of sloppy RH passage work. This is also observable in his recording of the Hammerklavier

To me, it is much more important that a player convey the character of a piece than have perfect articulation, especially in the hectic allegro of the Waldstein (Although not everyone interprets it that way, e.g. Gilels). Not to mention, as Mandryka points out, Schnabel didn't have the luxury of modern retakes and editing.

Regardless, he gets as much possible out of the Introduzione with the most imaginative rubato and especially the transition to the Rondo. 

The Hammerklavier I is another good example, where so many players don't even bother playing it allegro, let alone honoring the challenge of Beethoven's metronome marking.
Schnabel's interpretation is faultless, even if his technique lags behind.   

There is also the issue that Schnabel is sometimes criticized for "rushing," when he is swept up in an allegro.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 07, 2011, 08:58:00 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 07, 2011, 08:51:58 AM
Schnabel's interpretation is faultless, even if his technique lags behind.

My interpretation of the piece is superior to Schnabel's, although I can't even play the piano.   0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 07, 2011, 09:50:38 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 07, 2011, 08:58:00 AM
My interpretation of the piece is superior to Schnabel's, although I can't even play the piano.   0:)

I opened myself up to that sort of jibe  ;)

In any case, older recordings are often important and enjoyable for interpretive choices rather than a standard of overall excellence.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2011, 09:54:37 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 07, 2011, 08:51:58 AM

Not to mention, as Mandryka points out, Schnabel didn't have the luxury of modern retakes and editing.
 



Actually it's not  that. There American Federation of Musicians asked all it's members to stop making recordings in August 1942. The dispute was about royalties I think. American Victor's stidios were silent  from July 31, 1942 through November 11, 1944.

Schnabel rerecorded OP 109 and Op 111 in June 1942 -- before the AFM ban.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 07, 2011, 03:03:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2011, 09:54:37 AM
Actually it's not  that. There American Federation of Musicians asked all it's members to stop making recordings in August 1942. The dispute was about royalties I think. American Victor's stidios were silent  from July 31, 1942 through November 11, 1944.

Schnabel rerecorded OP 110 and Op 111 in June 1942 -- before the AFM ban.

Ah, I see what you meant now.
I was speaking only of the 1932 sessions. In any event, what I meant was that the producers couldn't simply "punch-in" and smooth over a perfect retake of a particular section, like they do nowadays with Logic Studio, etc. The recording pressure must have been much greater back then, and Schnabel apparently had problems with that. Not everything is ideal with human beings, and Beethoven himself did not like performing his own compositions in public, having salon audiences sit in separate rooms, preferring to improvise and conduct with his wild gesticulations.

Schnabel recreates the exuberance, tempi, and spontaneous feeling of the sonatas like no one else, and the concertos almost like no one else (Fleisher, Serkin, Solomon, Gilels).
That Schnabel is equally successful in Schubert, who idolized Beethoven, is further evidence to me that Schnabel grokked Beethoven. For modern perfection we have Gulda, Gilels, Pollini, or Solomon and Serkin.

I like this quote about Schnabel:

"The 'fluffs' and the rhythmic telescopings that occasionally make us raise our eyebrows are actually almost always the results of attempts at the impossible, attempts to push an idea to the very limits of its logic and even a bit beyond, rather than results of an imperfect control of mind or fingers."
   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 07, 2011, 05:12:53 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 07, 2011, 03:03:09 PM
I like this quote about Schnabel:

"The 'fluffs' and the rhythmic telescopings that occasionally make us raise our eyebrows are actually almost always the results of attempts at the impossible, attempts to push an idea to the very limits of its logic and even a bit beyond, rather than results of an imperfect control of mind or fingers."
   

Excellent quote.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on February 08, 2011, 12:27:51 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 07, 2011, 03:03:09 PM

Schnabel recreates the exuberance, tempi, and spontaneous feeling of the sonatas like no one else, and the concertos almost like no one else (Fleisher, Serkin, Solomon, Gilels).
That Schnabel is equally successful in Schubert, who idolized Beethoven, is further evidence to me that Schnabel grokked Beethoven.

   

Very well-said. Completely agree with the first part - for me Schnabel is THE Beethoven player. I find most of his Schubert a lot less impressive somehow - although I am a Schnabel fan quite generally (excepting his Schubert).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2011, 01:35:53 AM
Quote from: Verena on February 08, 2011, 12:27:51 AM
Very well-said. Completely agree with the first part - for me Schnabel is THE Beethoven player. I find most of his Schubert a lot less impressive somehow - although I am a Schnabel fan quite generally (excepting his Schubert).

I like some of the Beethoven, but not all. I don't like to focus on the negative but the earlier sonatas are sometimes just too grave for me (in the Largo to 10/3 for example. ) And some of the recordings seem very good, but maybe not really memorable and special. Sometimes (rarely) I think there are some bold but completely failed experiments -- (the first movement of the Hammerklavbier for example)

I find the Schubert more consistently satisfying, though I don't care at all for his Impromptus, which seem rather nervous.

Is there anyone interested in exploring Schnabel's recordings a bit more closely using this forum? You know the sort of thing: choosing a piece (Schubert or Beethoven or Bach or Mozart, concerto, chamber solo: -- I don't mind)  to listen to and posting reactions, whatever they may be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 08, 2011, 01:55:27 AM
Schnabel has been been put up on a pedestal as pianistic God as regards the LvB sonatas. He was the first to record the whole cycle (beating out Lamond) and a lot of hyperbole has been exuded from that point (regarding his stature)  from whence he gained his place on this pedestal.

Yes, he plays Beethoven very well but as the greatest interpreter of all time - I don't think so. His performances in the 'name' sonatas leaves a lot to be desired and much of it is lack of technical ability. Yes, his musical intelligence comes to the fore but he seems so frequently lost in trying to just play the notes that the musicality just isn't there. His Hammerklavier is a good example. The Adagio is just superb but it follows a very ordinary Scherzo which was preceded by a first movement in which all Schnabel could do was just play as fast as possible and hope that the headlong rush would satisfy as a great performance. When you hear Pollini, Solomon and Richter play it you realise how inept this was.

Where I love Schnabel is in the earlier sonatas. He still has what could be considered a very fresh approach after all these years.

Now his Schubert is a different story. Just sublime in so many areas.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 08, 2011, 03:27:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 08, 2011, 01:35:53 AM
Is there anyone interested in exploring Schnabel's recordings a bit more closely using this forum? You know the sort of thing: choosing a piece (Schubert or Beethoven or Bach or Mozart, concerto, chamber solo: -- I don't mind)  to listen to and posting reactions, whatever they may be.

Answered here, in the Schnabel thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12010.msg489304.html#msg489304)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on February 08, 2011, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 08, 2011, 01:55:27 AM
Schnabel has been been put up on a pedestal as pianistic God as regards the LvB sonatas. He was the first to record the whole cycle (beating out Lamond) and a lot of hyperbole has been exuded from that point (regarding his stature)  from whence he gained his place on this pedestal.

Yes, he plays Beethoven very well but as the greatest interpreter of all time - I don't think so. His performances in the 'name' sonatas leaves a lot to be desired and much of it is lack of technical ability. Yes, his musical intelligence comes to the fore but he seems so frequently lost in trying to just play the notes that the musicality just isn't there. His Hammerklavier is a good example. The Adagio is just superb but it follows a very ordinary Scherzo which was preceded by a first movement in which all Schnabel could do was just play as fast as possible and hope that the headlong rush would satisfy as a great performance. When you hear Pollini, Solomon and Richter play it you realise how inept this was.

Where I love Schnabel is in the earlier sonatas. He still has what could be considered a very fresh approach after all these years.

Now his Schubert is a different story. Just sublime in so many areas.

Yes, his technical command is often less than satisfying. And in those sonatas where this is all too evident, I tend to prefer other pianists.
With Schnabel I feel  that he has almost always something to say (a lot in fact), often more than most other pianists I know. But in Schubert, this is not enough for me. I think his Schubert speaks, but it does not sing (to my ears). 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 11:56:40 AM
Quote from: Verena on February 08, 2011, 10:02:12 AM
Yes, his technical command is often less than satisfying. And in those sonatas where this is all too evident, I tend to prefer other pianists.
With Schnabel I feel  that he has almost always something to say (a lot in fact), often more than most other pianists I know. But in Schubert, this is not enough for me. I think his Schubert speaks, but it does not sing (to my ears).

I just wish Schnabel had been born 100 years later.  Then some admission committee at Juliard or Curtis would have got a good laugh out of his mangled audition tape, and he could have had a productive life selling car insurance.   Of course our main loss would be the interminable discussions of how miraculous his interpretations would have been if could actually play the piano.  ::)   I'll take Angela Hewitt's Beethoven Sonata over Schnabel's any day, if she ever gets around to finishing it, although it is a let-down that they are not issuing them in SACD anymore.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on February 08, 2011, 12:00:51 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 11:56:40 AM
I just wish Schnabel had been born 100 years later.  Then some admission committee at Juliard or Curtis would have got a good laugh out of his mangled audition tape, and he could have had a productive life selling car insurance.   Of course our main loss would be the interminable discussions of how miraculous his interpretations would have been if could actually play the piano.  ::)   I'll take Angela Hewitt's Beethoven Sonata over Schnabel's any day, if she ever gets around to finishing it, although it is a let-down that they are not issuing them in SACD anymore.

Sounds like a good time for a Schnabel vs. Hewitt smack-down.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2011, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 06, 2011, 05:00:30 PM

The Cziffra is the reverse. The first movement, like the Argerich, doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It's fast but it's also like it's jogging on the spot.



Cziffra's Beethoven interests me a lot. I'm not at all clear yet about what he's doing.

It's as if he sees the  music as studies in proportion, colour and texture. Rather than as exercises in bravura, or as emotional expression.

I've just been listening to his WoO 80, where you hear the same sort of restraint, same sort of refinement, same sort of stasis as you hear in the primo to the Waldstien.

The things he seems to value in Beethoven -- elegance, poise -- are maybe a bit unfashionable.

One thing I'd like to do is listen to the bits of Beethoven we have from Cortot -- the stuff on youtube, the master class recordings and even the piano rolls. From memory there's a similar texture to Cortot's Beethoven as there is to Cziffras. The two were friends of course.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 11:56:40 AM
I just wish Schnabel had been born 100 years later.  Then some admission committee at Juliard or Curtis would have got a good laugh out of his mangled audition tape, and he could have had a productive life selling car insurance.   Of course our main loss would be the interminable discussions of how miraculous his interpretations would have been if could actually play the piano.  ::)   I'll take Angela Hewitt's Beethoven Sonata over Schnabel's any day, if she ever gets around to finishing it, although it is a let-down that they are not issuing them in SACD anymore.

How disrespectful.
Artur Schnabel studied with Leschetizky, performed and kept company with the greatest players and conductors of Europe. He also taught many significant students.
I don't think a committee decision or any emphasis of technicality over musicality is relevant. How far would Cortot get in the Chopin competition?

I do, however, completely understand the preference, especially in the late sonatas, for Serkin, Solomon, Richter, Gulda, Gilels, Pollini, Rosen, Hungerford, Brautigam i.e. pianists both with great technical command and individuality. Or Kempff and Nat.

Angela Hewitt is an accomplished but safe pianist. Never mind her simplistic characterization of the harpsichord or her sometimes pretentious and self-styled demeanor or shilling of Fazioli (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAeLjliS1LY&feature=related), her Beethoven (like most of her playing) is over-elegant, smooth, moderate, melodious and pretty but lacking urgency, exertion, wit and brio. She's not exactly a virtuoso either. 

If you want elegant, thoughtful and lyrical Beethoven just get Paul Lewis and be done with it. He has many more virtues.
 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 08, 2011, 02:18:43 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
If you want elegant, thoughtful and lyrical Beethoven just get Paul Lewis and be done with it. He has many more virtues.



And what would those virtues be?  Perhaps one is an aid for those who have a hard time falling asleep.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 08, 2011, 02:23:01 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:13:01 PM

Angela Hewitt is an accomplished but safe pianist. Never mind her simplistic characterization of the harpsichord or her sometimes pretentious and self-styled demeanor or shilling of Fazioli..

...I see we feel the same about that aspect: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/03/angela-hewitt-lectures-us-on-bach.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/03/angela-hewitt-lectures-us-on-bach.html)

Quote...her Beethoven (like most of her playing) is over-elegant, smooth, moderate, melodious and pretty but lacking urgency, exertion, wit and brio. She's not exactly a virtuoso either.

...but this may be an element of her recordings more so than her performances. I've seen her raw and ready in the Brahms f-minor (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/03/angela-hewitt-lectures-us-on-bach.html), for example... and that was rough and excessive and wild and urgent and, although not virtuosic, a real ride.

There are many sides to most artists...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 02:23:38 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:13:01 PMIf you want elegant, thoughtful and lyrical Beethoven just get Paul Lewis and be done with it. He has many more virtues.

Never heard of him.  I do have Lortie's set, as well as O'Conor and Pommier, who might fall into that catagory.  So far only heard a tiny bit of Hewitt's set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:34:45 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 08, 2011, 02:18:43 PM


And what would those virtues be?  Perhaps one is an aid for those who have a hard time falling asleep.

As you could gather from my other comments, his is not my favorite style, but at least he has a lyrical point of view and is something of a virtuoso (op 106). I don't really care enough to defend him more than that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 08, 2011, 02:23:01 PM
...I see we feel the same about that aspect: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/03/angela-hewitt-lectures-us-on-bach.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/03/angela-hewitt-lectures-us-on-bach.html)

...but this may be an element of her recordings more so than her performances. I've seen her raw and ready in the Brahms f-minor (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/03/angela-hewitt-lectures-us-on-bach.html), for example... and that was rough and excessive and wild and urgent and, although not virtuosic, a real ride.

There are many sides to most artists...

I see your point, but don't think she is worth the trouble when there are so many greater artists who no doubt go unnoticed. Plus, the recordings are still her fault.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 08, 2011, 02:39:47 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 02:23:38 PMNever heard of him.  I do have Lortie's set, as well as O'Conor and Pommier, who might fall into that catagory.  So far only heard a tiny bit of Hewitt's set.



Lortie and O'Conor are both better than Lewis to my ears.  Unless you like elegant, pretty (and boring) LvB, I would suggest spending your money on other recordings.

That written, I do agree with Clever Hans about 106 - why wasn't more of the cycle like that?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 02:42:04 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:37:59 PM
I see your point, but don't think she is worth the trouble when there are so many greater artists who no doubt go unnoticed. Plus, the recordings are still her fault.

I saw her live performing Franck and thought she gave a wonderful performance.  You clearly take great pride in finding fault with her, so you owe her a debt of gratitude for that, at the very least.   ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:46:59 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 08, 2011, 02:39:47 PM


Lortie and O'Conor are both better than Lewis to my ears.  Unless you like elegant, pretty (and boring) LvB, I would suggest spending your money on other recordings.

That written, I do agree with Clever Hans about 106 - why wasn't more of the cycle like that?

I won't argue with that, since I don't know Lortie and O'Conor. Perhaps the success of Lewis' first set will allow him to produce another down the line, when he has matured, widened his performing repertoire, and maybe become more eccentric or cranky.   

Quote from: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 02:42:04 PM
I saw her live performing Franck and thought she gave a wonderful performance.  You clearly take great pride in finding fault with her, so you owe her a debt of gratitude for that, at the very least.   ;D

That is a psychologically complex and funny thought.  :-*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2011, 09:54:21 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 08, 2011, 01:55:27 AM
His performances in the 'name' sonatas leaves a lot to be desired and much of it is lack of technical ability. . .Where I love Schnabel is in the earlier sonatas. He still has what could be considered a very fresh approach after all these years.


Is it only his technique which bothers you, or do you have other problems? In fact I find his approach rather unsatisfying in the early sonatas but I very much like him in the later ones.

For me his  Op 109 through op 111 and the diabelli variations and the bagatelles are rich in ideas, intelligently and sensitively phrased, beautiful sounding  . . . 

Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
How disrespectful.
I do, however, completely understand the preference, especially in the late sonatas, for Serkin, Solomon, Richter, Gulda, Gilels, Pollini, Rosen, Hungerford, Brautigam i.e. pianists both with great technical command and individuality. Or Kempff and Nat.


Well I certainly don't -- except maybe for Richter. What is wrong with his 109, or the remakes of 110 or 111? (I haven't heard Nat)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2011, 10:03:38 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 08, 2011, 01:55:27 AM
His performances in the 'name' sonatas leaves a lot to be desired and much of it is lack of technical ability. . .Where I love Schnabel is in the earlier sonatas. He still has what could be considered a very fresh approach after all these years.


Is it only his technique which bothers you, or do you have other problems? In fact I find his approach rather unsatisfying in the early sonatas but I very much like him in the later ones.

For me his  Op 109 through op 111 and the diabelli variations and the bagatelles are rich in ideas, intelligently and sensitively phrased, beautiful sounding  . . . 

Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
How disrespectful.
I do, however, completely understand the preference, especially in the late sonatas, for Serkin, Solomon, Richter, Gulda, Gilels, Pollini, Rosen, Hungerford, Brautigam i.e. pianists both with great technical command and individuality. Or Kempff and Nat.


Well I certainly don't -- except maybe for Richter. What is wrong with his 109, or the remakes of 110 or 111? (I haven't heard Nat)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 09, 2011, 01:04:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 08, 2011, 10:03:38 PM
Is it only his technique which bothers you, or do you have other problems? In fact I find his approach rather unsatisfying in the early sonatas but I very much like him in the later ones.

For me his  Op 109 through op 111 and the diabelli variations and the bagatelles are rich in ideas, intelligently and sensitively phrased, beautiful sounding  . . . 

Yes, it is more than his technique that bothers me in the well known sonatas. Schnabel is a very thoughtful Beethoven pianist and in many of the lesser PS his approach has a very fresh appeal.

Listening to much of Beethoven's earlier works you become aware of the 'statement' in one hand and the 'reply' in the other that is quite pervasive in these works. I sense that Schnabel understood this dialogue very well and that there are a number of ways of making the statement and couching the reply musically. This is what fascinates me about AS' interpretations of the early and middle sonatas.

Beethoven moved away from this after his middle period and I don't think that Schnabel moved with him. The one exception is his superb recording of the Diabelli Variations.

The one area where Schnabel excels in the late sonatas is the adagio of Op 106 but apart from that I'd rather listen to Pollini, Solomon, Hess, Hungerford, Levy or Richter in nos 28- 32
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on February 09, 2011, 03:56:29 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 08, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
How disrespectful.
Artur Schnabel studied with Leschetizky, performed and kept company with the greatest players and conductors of Europe. He also taught many significant students.
I don't think a committee decision or any emphasis of technicality over musicality is relevant. How far would Cortot get in the Chopin competition?

I do, however, completely understand the preference, especially in the late sonatas, for Serkin, Solomon, Richter, Gulda, Gilels, Pollini, Rosen, Hungerford, Brautigam i.e. pianists both with great technical command and individuality. Or Kempff and Nat.

Angela Hewitt is an accomplished but safe pianist. Never mind her simplistic characterization of the harpsichord or her sometimes pretentious and self-styled demeanor or shilling of Fazioli (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAeLjliS1LY&feature=related), her Beethoven (like most of her playing) is over-elegant, smooth, moderate, melodious and pretty but lacking urgency, exertion, wit and brio. She's not exactly a virtuoso either. 

If you want elegant, thoughtful and lyrical Beethoven just get Paul Lewis and be done with it. He has many more virtues.


Completely agree re your characterization of Hewitt. In fact, I'd probably take mistake-ridden Schnabel over Hewitt any day. Luckily, there are some other pianists who excel where Schnabel's technique is indeed too messy. Well, to each his (her) own, I guess.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 09, 2011, 12:44:25 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 08, 2011, 10:03:38 PM
Well I certainly don't -- except maybe for Richter. What is wrong with his 109, or the remakes of 110 or 111? (I haven't heard Nat)

I'm not saying I actually prefer other pianists, just that I understand the preference for technical perfection (e.g. some of the pianists Holden named) in the complex fugues and variations and difficult playing from 101 on. Interpretively, however, I still rate Schnabel tops, including in the opening of the Hammerklavier. While very interesting on their own terms, many others recast Beethoven with grand and expansive tempi: Richter (beyond op 106 i. e.g. allegro molto 110), Gilels (e.g. 109 prestissimo), Kempff (everything), Levy (everything). 

Personally I more often prefer those who do not do this--Rosen, Solomon, Gulda, Pollini, Hungerford, Brautigam, and Serkin (especially his earlier recordings), who makes the best case for a steady and powerful Hammerklavier opening (which I still think is wrong).

Yves Nat is less technically secure but raw, intense and expeditious. Basically the opposite of Hewitt.
Remastered in Ses Enregistrements box, also containing his great Schumann.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 09, 2011, 01:21:10 PM
When a performer chooses tempi which are faster than he can handle, he will always seem uncomfortable, and very little energy is left for expression. So he will disappoint his listeners, because music communicates first and foremost expression. Whether he is Schnabel or someone else. In Schnabels Beethoven I much prefer his slow movements, in which he often delivers wonderful expression, while many of his fast movements (the fugue of the Hammerklavier even more than the first movement) are at best uninteresting. Another disappointing pianist is Gulda, who manages to play very fast, but has to concentrate so much upon perfection to do it, that expression often suffers. So in a way a similar situation to Scnabel´s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 09, 2011, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: premont on February 09, 2011, 01:21:10 PM
When a performer chooses tempi which are faster than he can handle, he will always seem uncomfortable, and very little energy is left for expression. So he will disappoint his listeners, because music communicates first and foremost expression. Whether he is Schnabel or someone else. In Schnabels Beethoven I much prefer his slow movements, in which he often delivers wonderful expression, while many of his fast movements (the fugue of the Hammerklavier even more than the first movement) are at best uninteresting. Another disappointing pianist is Gulda, who manages to play very fast, but has to concentrate so much upon perfection to do it, that expression often suffers. So in a way a similar situation to Scnabel´s.

Obviously your points are carefully justified.

Not arguing taste, but I think Gulda had plenty left in reserve, was an astonishing pianist technically, and chose to give straightforward and refreshing interpretations. You can hear the same style in his cello sonatas with Fournier and Mozart. I recall you used to like Gulda's style. Why did you like him before and how did you change your mind?

Although there are specific examples of stunning broad interpretations, such as Giulini's eroica, I usually prefer that players follow a composer's indications. Especially in the case of Beethoven, where there is considerable evidence that he favored very fast tempos where indicated. The modern piano adds considerable weight already. On the other hand, one may also infer based on descriptions of Beethoven's performing and conducting, that he went for utmost expression and fantasy (at least compared to Classical standards), was not the most even-tempered man and was a great improvisor. So it may be argued that players like Gulda run counter to this aspect of his personality.     

Still, I generally don't like allegros played as andantes and prestos played as allegro ma non troppos. Often it transforms the entire character of a piece, usually for the worse. The Hammerklavier first movement is to me the most obvious example. As Charles Rosen says:

"It does not matter what metronome marking a pianist chooses for this movement providing it sounds Allegro; there is no excuse, textual or musical, for making it sound majestic, like Allegro maestoso, and such an effect is a betrayal of the music. It is often done because it mitigates the harshness of the work, but this harshness is clearly essential to it. A majestic tempo also saps the rhythmic vitality on which the movement depends"



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2011, 09:27:07 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 09, 2011, 01:04:22 AM

Listening to much of Beethoven's earlier works you become aware of the 'statement' in one hand and the 'reply' in the other that is quite pervasive in these works. I sense that Schnabel understood this dialogue very well and that there are a number of ways of making the statement and couching the reply musically. This is what fascinates me about AS' interpretations of the early and middle sonatas.

Beethoven moved away from this after his middle period and I don't think that Schnabel moved with him. The one exception is his superb recording of the Diabelli Variations.


I think I can hear what you mean -- in the primo of Op 110 for example I think I hear something of the statement/reply structure that you're thinking of, more than I do in Richter's Leipzig performance.

But why is it a problem? Why do you say that Beethoven moved away from this mode of expression? Are you saying that, as a matter of fact, Schnabel plays Op 110 in a way which isn't in line with Beethoven's ideas? Or are you saying that poetically Schnabel's style compromises the music?

Quote from: premont on February 09, 2011, 01:21:10 PM
When a performer chooses tempi which are faster than he can handle, he will always seem uncomfortable, and very little energy is left for expression. So he will disappoint his listeners, because music communicates first and foremost expression.

But  in the primo of the Waldstein, there's plenty of expression in Schnabel's performance. But according to Hoden he's playing it faster than he can handle.

More generally  speed itself is a form of expression. An example where it's very clear to me  is Yudina's Tempest sonata.

And so is a sense of discomfort and struggle and even near failour. I can think of lots of examples of this in Bach.  Weissenberg in the Bach/Busoni prelude Nun freut euch, lieben Christen gmein and maybe Gould in the second English suite.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 10, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 09, 2011, 03:11:33 PM
Not arguing taste, but I think Gulda had plenty left in reserve, was an astonishing pianist technically, and chose to give straightforward and refreshing interpretations. You can hear the same style in his cello sonatas with Fournier and Mozart. I recall you used to like Gulda's style. Why did you like him before and how did you change your mind?

About 15 years ago I decided - after a long Beethoven pause -  to refresh the passion of my youth for this composer, caused by the fact that I inherited Backhaus´ stereo sonata set from my mother. One of the first boxes I acquired was the original Amadeo Gulda sonata set. I was very impressed at first, but being a completist by nature I acquired many other sets - most of them within the last 5 years, and listening to these my idea of these works changed, I gradually realised that Gukda did not have much else to offer than his infallible dexterity. I do not find a degree of poetry or passion in his playing which matches his reputation.

Quote from: Clever Hans
Although there are specific examples of stunning broad interpretations, such as Giulini's eroica, I usually prefer that players follow a composer's indications. 

Composers metronome markings can not be but rough guidelines. Even composers play their own works in different tempi at different times.

Quote from: Clever Hans
Still, I generally don't like allegros played as andantes and prestos played as allegro ma non troppos. Often it transforms the entire character of a piece, usually for the worse. 

Still, I generally don't like allegros played as prestos and prestos played as prestissimos. Often it transforms the entire character of a piece, usually for the worse.

Quote from: Clever Hans
"It does not matter what metronome marking a pianist chooses for this movement providing it sounds Allegro;

Exactly. This is because it is the character and the mood which counts. Tempo is just one of the components which determine the mood of a piece of music. I think tempo steals the attention of many listeners because it is easy to understand and discuss. Topics like articulation is more difficult to understand but equally important in dertermining the mood.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 10, 2011, 09:00:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 09, 2011, 09:27:07 PM
More generally  speed itself is a form of expression.

Obviously, but too much speed results in a rather inarticulate expression - a kind of primate cry.
I do not think Beethoven meant to invite to such primitive effects.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 10, 2011, 10:41:16 AM
Quote from: premont on February 10, 2011, 09:00:19 AM
Obviously, but too much speed results in a rather inarticulate expression - a kind of primate cry.
I do not think Beethoven meant to invite to such primitive effects.

Yes -- but whose to say what's too much?

Hoffman plays Beethoven fast, but I wouldn't say his Waldstien is like an animal cry, becausehe  has complete rhythmic control and he varies the dynamics quite interestingly.

Fast performances can be nuanced. And of course you can gain things from the speed.

One thing  that you can gain is a sense of jaw dropping virtuosity. I like that. I also think it's part of the Beethoven style.

Here's Stephen Beus  in the fugue of the Hammerklavier

http://www.youtube.com/v/IA2v7ikyuxg

Unfortunately Yudina's tempest isn't on youtube.


Another guy who I believe plays Beethoven very fast is Paul Jacobs -- but I haven't heard it (I've just ordered the CD). Anyone know it?

[asin]B00005QTBK[/asin]


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ccar on February 10, 2011, 12:36:01 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2011, 10:41:16 AM
Yes -- but whose to say what's too much?

Hoffman plays Beethoven fast, but I wouldn't say his Waldstein is like an animal cry, because he  has complete rhythmic control and he varies the dynamics quite interestingly.

Fast performances can be nuanced. And of course you can gain things from the speed.

Absolutely agree. The tempo is obviously a part of the expressive content. But the question is what you are able to say, be it faster or slower.   

Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2011, 10:41:16 AM

Another guy who I believe plays Beethoven very fast is Paul Jacobs -- but I haven't heard it (I've just ordered the CD). Anyone know it?



Yes, it's a fast one. A live recital and a wild performance. Not with the greatest "technical" command but with many interesting and unexpected ideas - in phrasing, color accents and especially in the variations of tempi he chooses. Regarding the Waldstein, it's curious how he begins with a very fast Allegro (8:51), relaxes immensely in the Adagio (3:45) to create a very beautiful and natural transition to the Rondo and finishes in an uncontrolled Prestissimo. The other Beethoven sonata (No.7 Op. 10/3) is an even wilder reading. For me a very fresh and stimulating musical experience but certainly a shocking example for any purist. Wonderful artist.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: dirkronk on February 10, 2011, 12:38:54 PM
OK, since folks are talking about playing Beethoven fast, yet with expression, allow me to beg once again:

Does anyone...ANYONE...have the Sergio Fiorentino last movement of the Appassionata, done live in some monastery, that used to be readily available on the web several years back? I've been looking to get a download copy of that one forever (didn't have download capacity when it WAS available). Incomplete or not, it was one of the fastest yet most controlled versions I've ever heard.

Hoping...

Dirk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on February 10, 2011, 05:24:51 PM
Quote from: premont on February 10, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
I gradually realised that Gukda did not have much else to offer than his infallible dexterity. I do not find a degree of poetry or passion in his playing which matches his reputation.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Quote from: premont on February 10, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
Composers metronome markings can not be but rough guidelines. Even composers play their own works in different tempi at different times.

But I'm not talking about metronome markings (although the Hammerklavier 138 on half note definitely reinforces a fast tempo, as do the Beethoven quartet and symphony markings). Simply that when a composer says fast, he or she wants it played fast, or moderate he or she wants it...etc
Doing something else needs to be justified with an overwhelming effect (which is why I cited Giulini). Rarely does this occur. Usually it just ends up being ponderous and overstated.   

Quote from: premont on February 10, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
Still, I generally don't like allegros played as prestos and prestos played as prestissimos. Often it transforms the entire character of a piece, usually for the worse.

I see what you did there  ;) Nevertheless, you avoid my point. When Beethoven says allegro, he obviously did not have in mind Arrau's allegro. Just like Mozart did not envision a clotted mess of his symphonies.

Quote from: premont on February 10, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
Exactly. This is because it is the character and the mood which counts. Tempo is just one of the components which determine the mood of a piece of music. I think tempo steals the attention of many listeners because it is easy to understand and discuss. Topics like articulation is more difficult to understand but equally important in dertermining the mood.

Yes and no. I agree that tempo is only one element. It is still bad thing to get it wrong. Despite tempo being simple, people screw it up constantly.
Just play the piece as indicated for the love of god. That is almost always the best way.
Yet we often have recordings cited as references when they directly contradict the composer's indications. Surely that makes no sense. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2011, 12:13:51 PM
This recording of Op 2/1  is intelligent, colourful, elegant, technically excellent, beautifully recorded. The nuances of phrasing are very very nice. It's self effacing without being bland.  Stylistically it is ideal for early Beethoven: the connection to Haydn is very audible to me.

Yet I hate it.

I hate it because Perahia has no spontaneity at all. He's doesn't sound FREE. He sounds so controlling and careful.

Listening to it has made me realise that for me spontaneity is probably the musical value I prize most highly.

[asin]B000002A6H[/asin]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 18, 2011, 09:34:49 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 18, 2011, 12:13:51 PM
Yet I hate it.

I hate it because Perahia has no spontaneity at all. He's doesn't sound FREE. He sounds so controlling and careful.

That's silly. This is a very fine recording and the spontaneity is on a very high level. It's the first recording Perahia made after recovering from his hand ailment and the sense of glee is everywhere. 

I can't help wondering if you're using Levy again (overall as a Beethoven interpreter) as your benchmark which means you'll never be satisfied with anyone else. Levy was an island unto himself and should never be placed in a position of 'benchmark'. It's like giving Pogorelich such status. Fun to flirt with, certainly, but simply tooooo far outside the mainstream....
   

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2011, 05:09:22 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 18, 2011, 09:34:49 PM
That's silly. This is a very fine recording and the spontaneity is on a very high level. It's the first recording Perahia made after recovering from his hand ailment and the sense of glee is everywhere. 



Not in Op 2/1, at least not to my ears, though I can hear it's refined. Op 2/3 is much better.

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 18, 2011, 09:34:49 PM

I can't help wondering if you're using Levy again (overall as a Beethoven interpreter) as your benchmark which means you'll never be satisfied with anyone else. Levy was an island unto himself and should never be placed in a position of 'benchmark'. It's like giving Pogorelich such status. Fun to flirt with, certainly, but simply tooooo far outside the mainstream....


The place I'm coming from is one of equality of interpretations. All that matters is how well the performance works, how coherent it is etc. I'm not very interested in whether a performance deviates from the composer's intentions, from norms of style, or from conventions about how it should be played, though I can see that those questions have a sort of grizzly academic relevance.  I want to take each recital as a thing in itself. I want to reject your model of mainstream and benchmarks and deviants etc. For me the musician is an auteur who creates his own  poetry in response to a score.

And anyway, I didn't know Levy played any Op 2s. Does he really?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2011, 06:33:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2011, 05:09:22 AM
Not in Op 2/1, at least not to my ears, though I can hear it's refined. Op 2/3 is much better.

The entire disc is Perahia at some of his very best, and I'm not one to gush.

QuoteThe place I'm coming from is one of equality of interpretations.

I'm trying to reconcile this statement with an earlier statement you made:

Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2011, 12:19:53 PM
I just listened to Ernst Levy to remind me how this can sound.

To me this reads like you have a preferred vision in mind in certain works and anything deviating from that vision doesn't measure up. Which isn't the same thing as another performer being "bad".


QuoteAll that matters is how well the performance works, how coherent it is etc. I'm not very interested in whether a performance deviates from the composer's intentions, from norms of style, or from conventions about how it should be played, though I can see that those questions have a sort of grizzly academic relevance.  I want to take each recital as a thing in itself. I want to reject your model of mainstream and benchmarks and deviants etc. For me the musician is an auteur who creates his own  poetry in response to a score.

Again, all this spells "personal taste". Which isn't the same as your absolutist statements regarding the Perahia disc.

QuoteAnd anyway, I didn't know Levy played any Op 2s. Does he really?

I don't know for sure. I didn't make any claims one way or another.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2011, 08:29:08 AM
Sorry -- this is a hard medium for me to be clear in!

I was trying to move away from the idea that there is a core style of performance which confers a sort of validity on the interpretation.

That's not inconsistent as far as I can see with saying that, e.g. Levy in the third movement of the  Appassionata is better than Rubinstein's 1930s recording because . . .  Or that Perahia's Op 2/1 is not as good as Gould's or Annie Fischer's or Richter's or Schnabel's because . . .

The interesting bit is what comes after the because. I was trying to appeal to idea like spontaneity. I'm not sure how subjective spontaneity is -- but given that you hear it in MP's Op 2/1 and I don't, I'm strating to think it is  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: RJR on February 19, 2011, 08:46:20 AM
When Schnabel plays I listen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: RJR on February 19, 2011, 10:41:13 AM
To Mandryka,
Glad to see that you're still popping in out of this thread on Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. Otherwise I would be chastised for adding a comment-or a cursory remark-to a dead thread. Which, thankfully, this isn't. May it continue to blossom for many more years to come.

I found a link to a short set of comments written in 1950 by Benno Moiseiwitsch on the Grand Style that I thought you might like to read:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-gY0kdvAiSoJ:www.arbiterrecords.com/musicresourc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2011, 08:53:26 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2011, 08:29:08 AM
The interesting bit is what comes after the because. I was trying to appeal to idea like spontaneity. I'm not sure how subjective spontaneity is -- but given that you hear it in MP's Op 2/1 and I don't, I'm strating to think it is  ;)

Yes, that would indeed be a fascinating topic for dissection. Maybe one day when I have months on end to devote to the topic we might just find some morsel of common ground! :)

As it is, I suppose like many things aesthetic 'spontaneity' can be a highly subjective experience. For instance, that Perahia disc immediately following a Ciani performance sand-blasting would indeed seem mighty tame!



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2011, 10:53:54 PM
While exploring 2/1 a bit I came across a film of a concert Richter gave in Moscow Conservatory Hall on the 10th  and 16th  October 1976. I actually knew about this recital because it's on a Music and Arts CD which I have.

What I was not prepared for was the visceral quality of the music making in the sound track to the film. IMO this sound track is one of the great Richter recital recordings -- something I would never have said about the transfer on Music and Arts. The 2/1 is riveting and (dare I say it?) spontaneous. He plays like a man possessed. Proof if proof were needed that poor sound  can kill the musical qualities of a recording. I had no idea that this was such an exciting record from the M&A.

Anyway, I have ripped the sound to a FLAC file with TotalRecorder. The sound is here in mp3 320kbps -- the FLAC was too big for Mediafire. I haven't split it up yet -- but the 2/1 is right at the start.

The order of play is Beethoven  Piano Sonata  Op.2 no.1;  Schumann  Faschingsschwank aus Wien Op.26;  Beethoven  Bagatelle in  G major Op.126 no.1; Debussy  Prelude Book 1 No.3, "Le vent dans la  plaine" and  Prelude Book 2 No.8, "Ondine":  Rachmaninov  Prelude in G  sharp minar Op.32 no.1;


Be warned: the microphone is close to the piano. And he plays a wonderful steely soviet piano which I think really enhances this music. And there's a little audience noise. And there's  some  background hiss. But your ears soon gets used to the hiss: it's not really a problem.

http://www.mediafire.com/?s3ddm0kqpmbg3



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 24, 2011, 11:47:51 AM
Quote from: ccar on February 10, 2011, 12:36:01 PM
The other Beethoven sonata (No.7 Op. 10/3) [played by Paul Jacobs] is an even wilder reading. For me a very fresh and stimulating musical experience but certainly a shocking example for any purist. Wonderful artist.

Yes that is one fantastic performance. My initial impression is that I've never heard such a unified reading -- it's as if the fast final movement is an echo of the fast first movement. Wonderful!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on March 03, 2011, 11:13:33 AM
            I apologise for interrupting the mood of reverent consideration and appreciation of great performances and maybe this is for george mainly but following on the discussion of a few pages back in which the comparison of several processes of transcription was made possible by a link to the Mediafire pages,  I have collated the samples into one item which you can hear on my website (link below). I also performed a simple analytical test which turned out to prove "not much" ! As I posted on the Schnabel thread, the whole of the "Moonlight" sonata together with the other two in "Volume 4" specifically Op 2 No 2 and "Les Adieux" have been uploaded to the site.
            A propos speeds, as a pianist with just enough skills to get a few bars "perfect" but no more and seeing the very detailed markings in the sonatas, I have always worried about performances that gloss over details such as staccato dots, for example. These feature, for example in the  figuration of bars 12 to 16 of the 1st movement of Op 110 but the marking is " Molto cantabile..." so no problem (provided no pedal is used)  but in Op31 no1's 1st movement, "Allegro vivace", in bars 39 to 43 we also have the 1st and 5th semiquavers ( sorry !) dotted. What is the poor pianist to do? Can you be "lively" at a speed which allows you to make these detailed markings audible or do you just assume that "emphasis" was implied over and above the natural stresses?  The "Allegro moderato" finale of the "Waldstein"  has many full bars of  8 semiquavers (sixteenth notes!) in the left hand, all dotted.
            To add to my woes I have just you-tubed Gulda and Horovitz in the opening movement of the "Waldstein" at bar 29 the chord in the left hand is a crotchet but the use of the pedal makes it last two-bars. This is not good. Since the third movement has detailed markings for the use of the pedal we can assume that LvB knew what he was doing.

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcription_process.php     
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 03, 2011, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: early grey on March 03, 2011, 11:13:33 AM
            I apologise for interrupting the mood of reverent consideration and appreciation of great performances and maybe this is for george mainly but following on the discussion of a few pages back in which the comparison of several processes of trancription was made possible by a link to the Mediafire pages,  I have collated the samples into one item which you can hear on my website (link below).
http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcription_process.php     

Can you provide a direct link to the samples? I can't seem to find them.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on March 03, 2011, 01:14:31 PM
Click on the link and scroll down, this should do it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bigshot on April 04, 2011, 11:31:03 PM
I've posted a short sample of my transfer and restoration of Schnabel's Diabelli Variations here...

http://www.vintageip.com/diabellivariations.mp3

Schnabel's recordings are the hardest to restore because of the slightly distant miking, extreme dynamics and UK shellac with bacon and eggs crackle. I have a lot of theories on how to get the most out of these records without losing the percussive aspects in the low level passages. If anyone is interested, I'll describe my techniques. Some of them are quite different than most people who do this sort of work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 05, 2011, 03:51:05 AM
I heard that the best transfer of Schnabel is on Pearl. Hard to find and mighty expensive, so i never got my hands on one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bigshot on April 05, 2011, 03:37:30 PM
It depends on the transfer man. I have some Pearl sets that sound like no noise reduction at all was done. With the Schnabel recordings, that would make them pretty much unlistenable.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 05, 2011, 03:42:54 PM
Quote from: bigshot on April 05, 2011, 03:37:30 PM
It depends on the transfer man. I have some Pearl sets that sound like no noise reduction at all was done. With the Schnabel recordings, that would make them pretty much unlistenable.

Indeed they are. They gave me headaches until Naxos saved the day.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on April 11, 2011, 01:20:47 AM
I've read some rave reviews of his Beethoven Sonata recordings. Before I buy them - they are very expensive - I'd like to ask for further advice. Anyone listened to these? Thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on April 11, 2011, 05:16:12 PM
I have Vol 1 and like it very much. He's a powerful player but not a pounder. The multi-channel SACD audio is great, too. Here's a review:
http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=5228
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on April 14, 2011, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on April 11, 2011, 05:16:12 PM
I have Vol 1 and like it very much. He's a powerful player but not a pounder. The multi-channel SACD audio is great, too. Here's a review:
http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=5228

Thanks very much!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: zauberharfe on April 25, 2011, 01:46:28 PM
Maybe it's no worth to renew a discussion over such a little thing, but I feel I must stand up for the Pearl transfer...
It has good sound quality and continuous hiss, yes, but I think unlistenable is an extreme word to describe them. This one is my personal preference; much better than EMI, and maybe even outdoes Naxos.

@bigshot
what was the basis of your transfer?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 25, 2011, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: zauberharfe on April 25, 2011, 01:46:28 PM
Maybe it's no worth to renew a discussion over such a little thing, but I feel I must stand up for the Pearl transfer...
It has good sound quality and continuous hiss, yes, but I think unlistenable is an extreme word to describe them.

I imagine someone who found them listenable would object to someone else calling them unlistenable. Personally, they cause me physical pain to listen to them, that's why I call them unlistenable.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 28, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V-mA8Vu8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Looks like Rudolf Buchbinder's cycle has been reissued at a budget price.  Perhaps I'll get it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 11:07:17 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 28, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V-mA8Vu8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Looks like Rudolf Buchbinder's cycle has been reissued at a budget price.  Perhaps I'll get it.

It is a new recording, a live recording. I have ordered it already and expect to receive it witin a week or so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 28, 2011, 11:08:44 AM
Re Todd:

That's like saying perhaps the sun will rise again.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 28, 2011, 11:11:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 11:07:17 AMIt is a new recording, a live recording.


Hmm, a new cycle.  Good thing I already ordered it.  Now I have to wait a whole month until the next brand new cycle, by Peter Takacs, is released.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on June 28, 2011, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 28, 2011, 11:11:28 AM

Hmm, a new cycle.  Good thing I already ordered it.  Now I have to wait a whole month until the next brand new cycle, by Peter Takacs, is released.

How many cycles do you own?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 28, 2011, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 28, 2011, 01:05:01 PMHow many cycles do you own?


At least one less than I need.

The Buchbinder will make it 62.  I think.  (It may be only 61 - I'll have to recount.) 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 10:44:31 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 28, 2011, 01:37:18 PM
The Buchbinder will make it 62.  I think.  (It may be only 61 - I'll have to recount.)

What about the Gilels cycle and the second Backhaus cycle (missing the Hammerklavier), or the late Arrau cycle (missing the Hammerklavier as well as the Mondschein)? Or do you only include strictly complete cycles in your count?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: zauberharfe on June 29, 2011, 03:19:35 AM
@Todd
would you be disposed to share the cycles you own? I also have some (rare ones, too) but I would be happy to have some tips what to buy next.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 29, 2011, 04:50:36 AM
Quote from: zauberharfe on June 29, 2011, 03:19:35 AM
@Todd
would you be disposed to share the cycles you own? I also have some (rare ones, too) but I would be happy to have some tips what to buy next.

Here's also a list of what's available...  Although it needs updating, it might come in handy.

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 1, 1935 - 1969
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Part 2: 1967 - 1975
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html)
Part 3: 1977 - 1989
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)
Part 4: 1990 - 1996
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Part 5: 1996 - 1999
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_11.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_11.html)
Part 6: 2000 - 2005
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on June 29, 2011, 06:10:50 AM
That is a pretty good list Jens, with some interesting, insightful comments.  Thanks for sharing that list.  Also good to see more praise for Gulda. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2011, 06:11:36 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 29, 2011, 06:10:50 AM
That is a pretty good list Jens, with some interesting, insightful comments.  Thanks for sharing that list.  Also good to see more praise for Gulda. :)

Gulda's the man!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on June 29, 2011, 06:16:34 AM
Quote from: George on June 29, 2011, 06:11:36 AM
Gulda's the man!  8)

Hell yeah!! 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2011, 06:17:27 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 29, 2011, 06:16:34 AM
Hell yeah!! 8)

I should have added , for Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on June 29, 2011, 06:18:38 AM
Quote from: George on June 29, 2011, 06:17:27 AM
I should have added , for Beethoven.

I haven't heard anything of his outside Beethoven, guess I won't! ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 29, 2011, 06:20:08 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 10:44:31 PMOr do you only include strictly complete cycles in your count?


I include incomplete but nearly complete cycles like Gilels, Gieseking (Tahra), and Backhaus.  I don't have the later Arrau.  Yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 29, 2011, 06:48:44 AM
Quote from: zauberharfe on June 29, 2011, 03:19:35 AM@Todd would you be disposed to share the cycles you own?


Certainly, though to my chagrin I determined that I overcounted my collection.  The Buchbinder will make it 60 cycles, which does count two incomplete but substantially complete cycles, the Gilels and Gieseking.  (For a purist, that means I will have a lowly 58 when then Buchbinder arrives - and that should be this weekend since the set already shipped.)


Annie Fischer
Arrau
Ashkenazy
Backhaus 1 & 2
Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Barenboim 1, 2 & 3
Brautigam
Brendel 1, 2 & 3
Buchbinder 2 (on its way)
Ciani
Ciccolini
De Groote
El Bacha
Frank
Gieseking (Tahra)
Gilels
Goode
Grinburg
Gulda 1, 2 & 3
Heidsieck
Hobson
Jando
Kempff 1 & 2
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Kun-woo Paik
Levinas
Lewis
Lill
Lipkin
Lortie
Lucchesini
Mejoueva
Nakamichi
Nat
O'Conor
Oland
Perl
Pludermacher
Pommier
Roberts
Sako
Schiff
Schnabel
Sheppard
Sherman
Silverman
Sonoda 1
Wehr
Willems
Yokoyama
Zechlin

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 29, 2011, 07:02:49 AM
Whoops, I forgot the Oppitz cycle.  I was right the first time. 

Perhaps the fact that I can't even remember all the cycles I have means I have a problem - that problem being that I don't have enough cycles, of course.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 29, 2011, 07:04:00 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 29, 2011, 07:02:49 AM
Whoops, I forgot the Oppitz cycle.  I was right the first time. 

Perhaps the fact that I can't even remember all the cycles I have means I have a problem - that problem being that I don't have enough cycles, of course.
That's a problem!  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 29, 2011, 12:23:18 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 29, 2011, 07:02:49 AM
Whoops, I forgot the Oppitz cycle.  I was right the first time. 

Perhaps the fact that I can't even remember all the cycles I have means I have a problem - that problem being that I don't have enough cycles, of course.

(http://classical.premieremusic.net/images/classical/cds/MMT2011-2013.jpg)

Here's one you don't appear to have which is well worth a listen. This is one of a box of four - very expensive unfortunately.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 29, 2011, 12:40:45 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 29, 2011, 12:23:18 PM
(http://classical.premieremusic.net/images/classical/cds/MMT2011-2013.jpg)

Here's one you don't appear to have which is well worth a listen. This is one of a box of four - very expensive unfortunately.


I have the late sonatas as downloads, and sure enough it makes me think I should get the cycle.  The cost is what's keeping me from pulling the trigger.  Last I checked, it would be around $270-$300 for the cycle if I imported it.  I can download the entire cycle, but the sound quality is unacceptable for me.  Eventually I'll get my hands on it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2011, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 29, 2011, 12:40:45 PM

I have the late sonatas as downloads, and sure enough it makes me think I should get the cycle.  The cost is what's keeping me from pulling the trigger.  Last I checked, it would be around $270-$300 for the cycle if I imported it.  I can download the entire cycle, but the sound quality is unacceptable for me.  Eventually I'll get my hands on it.

I wonder if I can find it in lossless form, as I certainly can't afford that price tag.  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 29, 2011, 03:36:44 PM
Still enjoying this Brendel set.  As far as the sets go, do you folks prefer the Vox, Decca, or the Philips?  Did he actually cycle through three times?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2011, 03:45:47 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 29, 2011, 03:36:44 PM
Still enjoying this Brendel set.  As far as the sets go, do you folks prefer the Vox, Decca, or the Philips?  Did he actually cycle through three times?

Which Brendel do you mean, Bill? I see no image.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 29, 2011, 03:59:04 PM
Quote from: George on June 29, 2011, 03:45:47 PM
Which Brendel do you mean, Bill? I see no image.

Sorry about that:

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/Brendel001.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on June 29, 2011, 04:42:55 PM
I had to google that... the Murray Hill lps are the vox recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 29, 2011, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 29, 2011, 03:36:44 PMDid he actually cycle through three times?



Yes, he recorded the cycle three times: once for Vox and twice for Philips.  The first Philips cycle, from the 70s for the most part, is the best of the three.  Decca branded recordings are reissues now that the Philips label no longer exists.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2011, 06:09:49 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 29, 2011, 04:42:55 PM
I had to google that... the Murray Hill lps are the vox recordings.

Ah, well Bill, I can't say I am afan of that set. Haven't heard more o Brendel's LvB eiother, nor do I plan to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 29, 2011, 08:25:47 PM
Thanks, David and Todd! 

Well, not sure how they sound on cd, but the vinyl is very nice at this end.  Now playing SIDE 1, Sonatas 1 and 25.  These discs are in super shape, so the noise on them is minimal.  Nice warm sound about them with a touch of hollowness to give them a touch of depth.

As for the performances, I have only one other modern cycle to compare them with (Kempff/Stereo), and I am guessing that is what you do not care for here buddy.  Might be just my luck that I own so little of these that I can enjoy this set. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 29, 2011, 08:51:06 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 29, 2011, 08:25:47 PM
Thanks, David and Todd! 

Well, not sure how they sound on cd, but the vinyl is very nice at this end.  Now playing SIDE 1, Sonatas 1 and 25.  These discs are in super shape, so the noise on them is minimal.  Nice warm sound about them with a touch of hollowness to give them a touch of depth.

As for the performances, I have only one other modern cycle to compare them with (Kempff/Stereo), and I am guessing that is what you do not care for here buddy.  Might be just my luck that I own so little of these that I can enjoy this set. :)

I have some of the Murray Hill/Vox cycle, the last five from the first Philips cycle, and the complete second Philips cycle.   There are, essentially, some good points about each of them.  But like you,  I don't have that much to compare Brendel against--the only other complete cycles I own are Lewis and Schiff, and scatterings of other pianists (for instance,  Uchida's mini cycle of the late sonatas).  Each has its own strengths and flaws,  but I'm fairly satisfied with what I have.   I do have my eye on Kempff as my next purchase in this category.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 30, 2011, 02:25:44 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 29, 2011, 06:48:44 AM

Certainly, though to my chagrin I determined that I overcounted my collection.  The Buchbinder will make it 60 cycles, which does count two incomplete but substantially complete cycles, the Gilels and Gieseking.  (For a purist, that means I will have a lowly 58 when then Buchbinder arrives - and that should be this weekend since the set already shipped.)


Annie Fischer
Arrau
Ashkenazy
Backhaus 1 & 2
Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Barenboim 1, 2 & 3
Brautigam
Brendel 1, 2 & 3
Buchbinder 2 (on its way)
Ciani
Ciccolini
De Groote
El Bacha
Frank
Gieseking (Tahra)
Gilels
Goode
Grinburg
Gulda 1, 2 & 3
Heidsieck
Hobson
Jando
Kempff 1 & 2
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Kun-woo Paik
Levinas
Lewis
Lill
Lipkin
Lortie
Lucchesini
Mejoueva
Nakamichi
Nat
O'Conor
Oland
Perl
Pludermacher
Pommier
Roberts
Sako
Schiff
Schnabel
Sheppard
Sherman
Silverman
Sonoda 1
Wehr
Willems
Yokoyama
Zechlin

You forgot Gould -- if you don't know it there are some fantastic things there, especially among the early sonatas. For someone with your taste for interventionist pianism will relish his style, no doubt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 03:03:30 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 29, 2011, 06:48:44 AM


Annie Fischer
Arrau
Ashkenazy
Backhaus 1 & 2
Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Barenboim 1, 2 & 3
Brautigam
Brendel 1, 2 & 3
Buchbinder 2 (on its way)
Ciani
Ciccolini
De Groote
El Bacha
Frank
Gieseking (Tahra)
Gilels
Goode
Grinburg
Gulda 1, 2 & 3
Heidsieck
Hobson
Jando
Kempff 1 & 2
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Kun-woo Paik
Levinas
Lewis
Lill
Lipkin
Lortie
Lucchesini
Mejoueva
Nakamichi
Nat
O'Conor
Oland
Oppitz
Perl
Pludermacher
Pommier
Roberts
Sako
Schiff
Schnabel
Sheppard
Sherman
Silverman
Sonoda 1
Wehr
Willems
Yokoyama
Zechlin

Thanks for this list, Todd. We have (of course) a lot of overlapping. But this is my list:

Annie Fischer
Arrau 1 & 2
Ashkenazy
Backhaus 1 & 2
Badura-Skoda 1 & 2
Bilson and pupils
Biret
Barenboim 1, 2 & 3
Brautigam
Brendel 1, 2 & 3
Buchbinder 1 & 2
Ciccolini
Collective of Russian pianists
De Groote
El Bacha
Frank
Gieseking  1 & 2
Gilels
Goode
Grinberg
Gulda 2 & 3
Heidsieck
Hobson
Jando
Kempff 1 & 2
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Levinas
Lewis
Lill
Lortie
Lucchesini
Nat
Nicolajeva
O'Conor
Oland
Oppitz
Perl
Pludermacher
Pommier
Roberts
Schnabel
Sheppard
Willems
Yokoyama
Zechlin

That makes 57 sets

I used to own Ciani, Schiff and the almost complete Gould, and if I had kept them that would make 60, but they "shrunk" to much upon me with each listening.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 03:12:22 AM
Now I think we have supplied Jens with much stuff for the updating of his list.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2011, 03:15:47 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 30, 2011, 03:12:22 AM
Now I think we have supplied Jens with much stuff for the updating of his list.

Which ones, actually? I've been looking at the list, but it's overwhelming.

Buchbinder II, obviously... what else have I missed or has been added in the last two years?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 03:48:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 30, 2011, 03:15:47 AM
Which ones, actually? I've been looking at the list, but it's overwhelming.

Buchbinder II, obviously... what else have I missed or has been added in the last two years?

Your list is incomplete. And as far as I can see, it includes no recordings made after 2005.

Where are

Biret
Brautigam
Gulda 1 (not the one you call Gulda 1, which really is Gulda 2)
Paik
Lortie
Lewis
Oppitz
Schiff
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 05:04:17 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 29, 2011, 08:51:06 PM
I have some of the Murray Hill/Vox cycle, the last five from the first Philips cycle, and the complete second Philips cycle.   There are, essentially, some good points about each of them.  But like you,  I don't have that much to compare Brendel against--the only other complete cycles I own are Lewis and Schiff, and scatterings of other pianists (for instance,  Uchida's mini cycle of the late sonatas).  Each has its own strengths and flaws,  but I'm fairly satisfied with what I have.   I do have my eye on Kempff as my next purchase in this category.

Yes, I also have a smattering from the likes of Serkin and Moravec (two favorites) and the cycle from Schnabel on Pearl thanks to my buddy George here.  I continue to forget that I also have the Gulda from '67 set in the Complete Beethoven Edition I own.  I have not given those a listen yet, but hear they are worth my time.  Can someone here clear up how many cycles he has with dates and where my run fits in.  As far as the Kempff goes, I have the stereo cycle, but many here enjoy the mono so you may want to consider which one you want to start with.

Now continuing my survey of the Brendel Murray Hill/Vox: Sonata No. 2

PS If I am playing one of your favorites from the cycle during my complete overview, please let me know so I can give it an extra spin.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2011, 05:31:37 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 30, 2011, 03:48:56 AM
Your list is incomplete. And as far as I can see, it includes no recordings made after 2005.

Where are

Biret
Brautigam
Gulda 1 (not the one you call Gulda 1, which really is Gulda 2)
Paik
Lortie
Lewis
Oppitz
Schiff

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html

Brautigam I will have to add, ditto Gulda "0", both of them weren't out then.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2011, 06:12:39 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 05:04:17 AMI continue to forget that I also have the Gulda from '67 set in the Complete Beethoven Edition I own.  I have not given those a listen yet, but hear they are worth my time.  Can someone here clear up how many cycles he has with dates and where my run fits in.

IMO, the one you have is his best set. I believe Todd agrees. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2011, 06:26:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2011, 02:25:44 AMYou forgot Gould


No I didn't; I don't have Gould.  I've heard some.  I don't want Gould.


Quote from: (: premont :) on June 30, 2011, 03:03:30 AM
Thanks for this list, Todd. We have (of course) a lot of overlapping. But this is my list:

...Gieseking  1 & 2



Do you have the incomplete EMI cycle on LP, and where/how did you get it?  That's one of my holy grails, the other being Robert Riefling's cycle.



Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 06:12:39 AMI believe Todd agrees.


Indeed.  The Amadeo set is the Gulda set to get. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:08:40 AM
BOY, those lists are overwhelming and probably pretty much exhaustive of the choices!  :D

So, since there are some 'new' sets out there, what might be the top half dozen 'best' options for us who may want another set or two?  Thanks in advance -   :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 07:15:14 AM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 06:12:39 AM
IMO, the one you have is his best set. I believe Todd agrees. :)

Is the one I have his 1st, 2nd, or 3rd cycle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 07:21:48 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2011, 06:26:24 AM
Do you have the incomplete EMI cycle on LP, and where/how did you get it? 

Many years ago I owned some of the LPs (a gift from my father) but I parted with them later. I thought Gieseking was too prosaic. My point of reference was of course Kempff. But I wanted to acquire the recordings again for historical (and maybe sentimental) reasons. Now the set has been rereleased by Idis (2009) in acceptable sound quality:

Link:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/22d46a7725f6c4527cdde565d1763a41/classic/search?interpret=beethoven&rubric=classic&tracks=gieseking&pd_orderby=score&advancedsearch=1


Vol. 1, 2 and 3 are the EMI recordings. The content of vol. 4 is released by Tahra already.


Quote from: Todd
That's one of my holy grails, the other being Robert Riefling's cycle.

Mine too. If you ever see the Riefling rereleased, please tell me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 07:24:41 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 07:15:14 AM
Is the one I have his 1st, 2nd, or 3rd cycle?

Third.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 07:27:48 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 30, 2011, 07:21:48 AM
Many years ago I owned some of the LPs (a gift from my father) but I parted with them later. I thought Gieseking was too prosaic. My point of reference was of course Kempff. But I wanted to acquire the recordings again for historical (and maybe sentimental) reasons. Now the set has been rereleased by Idis (2009) in acceptable sound quality:

Link:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/22d46a7725f6c4527cdde565d1763a41/classic/search?interpret=beethoven&rubric=classic&tracks=gieseking&pd_orderby=score&advancedsearch=1


Vol. 1, 2 and 3 are the EMI recordings. The content of vol. 4 is released by Tahra already.


Mine too. If you ever see the Riefling rereleased, please tell me.

Thanks!  As far as the Gieseking recordings go, would you prefer the lps over the cd releases, even though they would be more difficult to track down (I am guessing)?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 07:30:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 30, 2011, 05:31:37 AM
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html

Brautigam I will have to add, ditto Gulda "0", both of them weren't out then.

Thanks for the update. Jens. This was not contained in your first list (reply 813 in this thread).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 07:32:43 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:08:40 AM
So, since there are some 'new' sets out there, what might be the top half dozen 'best' options for us who may want another set or two?  Thanks in advance -   :)

Which sets do you own already. I recall faintly something with Frankl.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2011, 07:32:56 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 30, 2011, 07:21:48 AMNow the set has been rereleased by Idis (2009) in acceptable sound quality:

Mine too. If you ever see the Riefling rereleased, please tell me.


Excellent, I'll have to investigate the Gieseking I think.

I'm hoping some enterprising company reissues the Riefling at some point.  I managed to track down six of the LPs, but I want the whole shebang.




Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:08:40 AM
So, since there are some 'new' sets out there, what might be the top half dozen 'best' options for us who may want another set or two?  Thanks in advance -   :)


Are you looking for more recent recordings, or is that not important?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:43:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2011, 07:32:56 AM

Are you looking for more recent recordings, or is that not important?

Hi Todd - well, I have only Annie Fischer & Kempff (the latter from the mid-60s) - probably would like both a 'period instrument' and a more modern set - thanks for any suggestions from you or others -  :) Dave
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 07:43:32 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 07:27:48 AM
Thanks!  As far as the Gieseking recordings go, would you prefer the lps over the cd releases, even though they would be more difficult to track down (I am guessing)?

As I parted with the LPs about 20 years agp no A/B test is practicable. And also the HIFI gear I owned 20 years ago was not up to what I own to day. So I can not answer your question easily. All I can say is, that the sound on the Isis CDs resonably well evokes the sound quality and character I remember from the LPs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 07:45:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 30, 2011, 07:43:32 AM
As I parted with the LPs about 20 years agp no A/B test is practicable. And also the HIFI gear I owned 20 years ago was not up to what I own to day. So I can not answer your question easily. All I can say is, that the sound on the Isis CDs resonably well evokes the sound quality and character I remember from the LPs.

Ah.  It sounds as if I come by the lps in the used bin for a low price then they would be worth snatching up.  Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2011, 07:50:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:43:12 AMHi Todd - well, I have only Annie Fischer & Kempff (the latter from the mid-60s) - probably would like both a 'period instrument' and a more modern set - thanks for any suggestions from you or others


I can't be of much assistance on the period instrument front since all I've heard is Brautigam, which I find good to start but less compelling in the later works, but among more recent cycles I'd suggest Lucchesini (if you can find it), Lortie, Wehr, Lipkin, or perhaps Sheppard.  Though older, Eric Heidsieck's cycle has its substantial charms, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:08:40 AM
So, since there are some 'new' sets out there, what might be the top half dozen 'best' options for us who may want another set or two?  Thanks in advance -   :)

1/ 2: Kempff stereo and Backhaus stereo.
    3: Arrau (1960es Philips set). Probably an acquired taste though.
    4: Badura-Skoda (the HIP set preferable for historical reasons, but the Gramola set offers also fine musicianship on a Bösendorfer)
    5: Heidsieck
    6: Annie Fischer

Lortie and O´Connor are outstanding but very much in the Kempff vein and Buchbinder 1 is much in the Backhaus vein. Buchbinder 2 arrived to day, but is unlistened to so far. Luccesini (live recording) offers a sympathic middle of the road performance.

Contrary to the consensus in this forum I am not that keen on Gulda. I find too much athletic showmanship and too little music in his playing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 08:17:20 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 07:45:28 AM
Ah.  It sounds as if I come by the lps in the used bin for a low price then they would be worth snatching up.  Thanks! :)

Yes, I would agree with this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2011, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:43:12 AM
Hi Todd - well, I have only Annie Fischer ...

This statement recalls an episode of Happy Days when Mr. C told Fonzie that it was "just a motorcycle," to which Fonzie replied "and I suppose your mother was just a Mother!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 09:13:29 AM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 08:40:16 AM

This statement recalls an episode of Happy Days when Mr. C told Fonzie that it was "just a motorcycle," to which Fonzie replied "and I suppose your mother was just a Mother!

Classic!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 30, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
When we talk about complete sets there is another genre - sets by a pianist that were never completed by him/her for whatever reason. In this vein there are some outstanding sets that can still be had despite the fact that up to 10 of them are missing. I'm talking about the likes of:

Richter 21/32
Gilels (already mentioned by Todd) 26/32
Hungerford 22/32
Solomon 18/32

The latter two, if completed, could have been the greatest sets ever produced. Hungerford's performances are always excellent and the same goes for Solomon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2011, 12:45:34 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 30, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
The latter two, if completed, could have been the greatest sets ever produced. Hungerford's performances are always excellent and the same goes for Solomon.

Three things:

1. I just ordered the final missing sonata CD by Solomon on Testament, so thanks.

2. Are his concerto recordings on the same label of the same caliber?

3. Let's not forget Moravec, who really should have recorded a lot more Beethoven.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: zauberharfe on June 30, 2011, 01:17:39 PM
Let me also mention Bruno-Leonardo Gelber (who has recorded only ;D 19 of the 32). If someone sees turning up this half-cycle (on Denon) at an affordable price don't hesitate for a moment!

Another name to remember is Vera Gornostaeva (pupil of Neuhaus, undeservedly forgotten).

They're not just two more names to come up with something but are really something special. Let me know if you want samples.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 30, 2011, 01:17:55 PM
Gilels's is actually no less complete than Schnabel's. Schnabel left out the three WoO 47. Gilels left out the two 26 and 32 but included two of the WoOs.

It would be good to see Paul Komen finish his cycle.

I regret we didn't have more from Elly Ney and Sofronitsky. And I'm curious about what the Cortot recordings are like.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 01:41:50 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 30, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
When we talk about complete sets there is another genre - sets by a pianist that were never completed by him/her for whatever reason. In this vein there are some outstanding sets that can still be had despite the fact that up to 10 of them are missing. I'm talking about the likes of:

Richter 21/32
Gilels (already mentioned by Todd) 26/32
Hungerford 22/32
Solomon 18/32

The latter two, if completed, could have been the greatest sets ever produced. Hungerford's performances are always excellent and the same goes for Solomon.

The most regrattable not completed set IMO is Paul Komen´s . BTW he may happen to complete it some day.
I think Solomon,Hungerford and Gilels intended to make a complete set, but was interrupted by ilness resp. death.
Richter on the other hand never harboured the intention to make a complete set,  as far as I know he had not studied all the sonatas, and his recordings are very uneven and it is hard to find the optimal options.
Other partially completed sets are (from the top of my head) Kempff´s prewar set, Hans Richter-Haaser, Melvin Tan, 

Strictly spoken only a few complete sets are indeed complete since the Electoral sonatas are missing from most sets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2011, 01:17:55 PM
Gilels's is actually no less complete than Schnabel's. Schnabel left out the three WoO 47. Gilels left out the two 26 and 32 but included two of the WoOs.

It would be good to see Paul Komen finish his cycle.

I regret we didn't have more from Elly Ney and Sofronitsky. And I'm curious about what the Cortot recordings are like.

Sorry, I had not seen your post, before writing mine. But at least we agree very much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 01:47:08 PM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 12:45:34 PM
Three things:
2. Are his concerto recordings on the same label of the same caliber?

Almost better, his recordings of Concertos 1 and 2 are among my top choices.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 30, 2011, 01:50:35 PM
Quote from: zauberharfe on June 30, 2011, 01:17:39 PM
Let me also mention Bruno-Leonardo Gelber (who has recorded only ;D 19 of the 32). If someone sees turning up this half-cycle (on Denon) at an affordable price don't hesitate for a moment!

Not my cup of tea. Intolerably overstated interpretations IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2011, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 30, 2011, 08:16:17 AM
1/ 2: Kempff stereo and Backhaus stereo.
    3: Arrau (1960es Philips set). Probably an acquired taste though.
    4: Badura-Skoda (the HIP set preferable for historical reasons, but the Gramola set offers also fine musicianship on a Bösendorfer)
    5: Heidsieck
    6: Annie Fischer


    2: Backhaus stereo.
    2: Kempff mono
    3: Gulda "2" (counting: 0, 1, 2)
    4: Gilels
    5: Arrau (1960s)
   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 02:36:45 PM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 08:40:16 AM

This statement recalls an episode of Happy Days when Mr. C told Fonzie that it was "just a motorcycle," to which Fonzie replied "and I suppose your mother was just a Mother!

Hey George - LOL!  ;D  Well, as I recall, you convinced me to buy the Annie Fischer despite the price (although I did find a decent deal back then) - still great listening to my humble ears -  ;) :D  Dave
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 05:05:47 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 30, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
When we talk about complete sets there is another genre - sets by a pianist that were never completed by him/her for whatever reason. In this vein there are some outstanding sets that can still be had despite the fact that up to 10 of them are missing. I'm talking about the likes of:

Richter 21/32
Gilels (already mentioned by Todd) 26/32
Hungerford 22/32
Solomon 18/32

The latter two, if completed, could have been the greatest sets ever produced. Hungerford's performances are always excellent and the same goes for Solomon.

Where does Moravec land with numbers?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 30, 2011, 05:44:02 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 02:36:45 PM
Hey George - LOL!  ;D  Well, as I recall, you convinced me to buy the Annie Fischer despite the price (although I did find a decent deal back then) - still great listening to my humble ears -  ;) :D  Dave

On a per CD basis, the Annie Fischer's set is still the most expensive box I have ever bought at $106.  I hope to find time to have a second listen for at least some of my favorite sonatas before the summer is over ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2011, 06:23:43 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 05:05:47 PM
Where does Moravec land with numbers?

6/32  :-[

From his website:

Sonata No. 8 Pathetique

Sonata No. 14 Moonlight

Sonata No. 15 Pastoral: 1969, New York and 1983, Brussels

Sonata No. 23 Appassionata

Sonata No. 26 Les Adieux: 1969, New York and 1970, Vienna

Sonata No. 27 Op. 90
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 06:23:43 PM
6/32  :-[

From his website:

Sonata No. 8 Pathetique

Sonata No. 14 Moonlight

Sonata No. 15 Pastoral: 1969, New York and 1983, Brussels

Sonata No. 23 Appassionata

Sonata No. 26 Les Adieux: 1969, New York and 1970, Vienna

Sonata No. 27 Op. 90

That is an 0.188 batting average....there are pitchers with a better average.  Still, the ones we have are beauties. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2011, 06:36:23 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 30, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
That is an 0.188 batting average....there are pitchers with a better average.  Still, the ones we have are beauties. :)

Yeah, I'll take his 6 over many pianists 32 any day.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on June 30, 2011, 06:58:47 PM
Forgive this newcomer to the thread, if this has already been discussed ... which complete set(s) do you consider good intersections of less expensive and good?

TIA
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2011, 07:07:57 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2011, 06:58:47 PM
Forgive this newcomer to the thread, if this has already been discussed ... which complete set(s) do you consider good intersections of less expensive and good?

TIA


That would be Gulda on Amadeo, assuming it can still be had for it's original cheap price. EDIT: no, it's seems to now be OOP.

So, I'd say Kempff's stereo set: $26 new on amazon (that's 8 CDs): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CGJ3QS/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1309489622&sr=8-1-spell
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 30, 2011, 08:07:12 PM
Here's another permutation for the assembled wisdom.

What set(s) present the intersection of good, not expensive and HIP?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 01, 2011, 02:15:24 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 30, 2011, 08:07:12 PM
What set(s) present the intersection of good, not expensive and HIP?

I suppose, that you mean PI = period instruments sets.

Only four complete sets have been made AFAIK, and they are all rather expensive or unavailable.

1) Malcolm Binns (only the late sonatas have been released on CD - the rest since long OOP LPs - have not heard these)

2) Malcolm Bilson and pupils (Claves - includes the "Kurfürsten" sonatas) for the most part enjoyable IMO.

3) Paul Badura-Skoda (the Astreé release) OOP but musically the most satisfying IMO

4) Ronald Brautigam (BIS - Includes the "Kurfürsten" sonatas as well) rather straight forward playing - sometimes a bit tiring.


The incomplete set by Melvin Tan (Virgin) is cheap. Tans playing is perfectionistic and often eartbound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 01, 2011, 02:20:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 30, 2011, 02:07:20 PM
    2: Backhaus stereo.
    2: Kempff mono
    3: Gulda "2" (counting: 0, 1, 2)
    4: Gilels
    5: Arrau (1960s)


High percentage of agreement it seems.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2011, 03:25:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 12:52:43 AM
Gulda is still available for an OK price; if you're in Europe still for a budget price:
Gulda "2", Decca, Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GY6/goodmusicguide-20)
Gulda "2", Decca, Amazon Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GY6/goodmusicguide-21)

I have the Gulda in the Decca and Brilliant (re) masterings and can't say that the AMSI gets at all in the way of enjoying the set.

I had forgotten that it was also on Decca. For some reason, your links both lead to a Mahler two-fer. I found the set over at amazon.us though. Link here. (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-Concerto-Box/dp/B000BQV52A/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1309519436&sr=1-1)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 01, 2011, 03:27:32 AM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 07:07:57 PM
That would be Gulda on Amadeo, assuming it can still be had for it's original cheap price. EDIT: no, it's seems to now be OOP.

So, I'd say Kempff's stereo set: $26 new on amazon (that's 8 CDs): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CGJ3QS/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1309489622&sr=8-1-spell (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CGJ3QS/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1309489622&sr=8-1-spell)

Thanks, George!

Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 12:52:43 AM
Gulda "2", Decca, Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GY6/goodmusicguide-20)

This link actually takes me to an HvK Mahler two-fer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2011, 03:29:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2011, 03:27:32 AM
Thanks, George!

This link actually takes me to an HvK Mahler two-fer.

See above.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 01, 2011, 03:30:11 AM
Do you mean this one, gents?

[asin]B000BQV52A[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 01, 2011, 03:30:59 AM
Quote from: George on July 01, 2011, 03:29:31 AM
See above.  8)

Yes!  The "page break" hid your precedent observation, George : )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2011, 03:31:41 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2011, 03:30:11 AM
Do you mean this one, gents?

[asin]B000BQV52A[/asin]

Yep.

A word of caution, though. I strongly suggest you sample each before buying, as their styles are very different.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 03:37:38 AM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 07:07:57 PM
That would be Gulda on Amadeo, assuming it can still be had for it's original cheap price. EDIT: no, it's seems to now be OOP.

So, I'd say Kempff's stereo set: $26 new on amazon (that's 8 CDs): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CGJ3QS/goodmusicguide-20

Gulda is still available for an OK price; if you're in Europe still for a budget price:
Gulda "2", Decca, Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BQV52A/goodmusicguide-20)
Gulda "2", Decca, Amazon Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BQV52A/goodmusicguide-21)

I have the Gulda in the Decca and Brilliant (re) masterings and can't say that the AMSI gets at all in the way of enjoying the set.

Anyone know the new Peter Takacs (SACD) set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003X859AW/goodmusicguide-20) already?

Edit: Links fixed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on July 01, 2011, 05:02:21 AM
Continuing my survey of the Brendel Murray Hill/Vox: Sonata No. 3
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 01, 2011, 05:14:59 AM
Good morning, Bill!

It's time I re-acquaint myself with these.  Musically, I have fared far abroad, but these remain gold, of course
: )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on July 01, 2011, 05:17:43 AM
Do jump in Karl.  I am clueless when it comes to these and many other things, but enough support here at GMG that I should come out better for my effort.

As for No. 3, I really enjoyed the Adagio and the Scherzo: Allegro.  Did not know that this one was dedicated to Papa Haydn. :)  Brendel is playful self on the Allegro assai. 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2011, 05:29:50 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2011, 05:14:59 AM
Good morning, Bill!

It's time I re-acquaint myself with these.  Musically, I have fared far abroad, but these remain gold, of course
: )

It brings me great pleasure to read this, Karl and I do hope that you let us know which one you choose and your impressions of it. I don't read the listening or purchases thread anymore, so if you could post a small bit here that'd be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 01, 2011, 05:40:31 AM
: )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 01, 2011, 06:27:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2011, 06:58:47 PMForgive this newcomer to the thread, if this has already been discussed ... which complete set(s) do you consider good intersections of less expensive and good?


Top choices meeting these criteria would be Kempff, Backhaus (stereo), or Heidsieck.  You can also get Lortie, Gilels, or Frank.  Seymour Lipkin's cycle is available for $20 in CD-ROM form and also comes with all of the scores.  The music is in MP3 format, so you'd have to sacrifice some sound quality.  In other words, there's plenty to choose from.


Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 03:37:38 AMAnyone know the new Peter Takacs (SACD) set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003X859AW/goodmusicguide-20) already?

It's not out yet and keeps getting delayed.  If it comes out as scheduled, I'll have it later this month
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2011, 06:35:10 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 01, 2011, 06:27:25 AM

Top choices meeting these criteria would be Kempff, Backhaus (stereo), or Heidsieck.  You can also get Lortie, Gilels, or Frank. 

Haven't heard Lortie, but I agree with the others. Though the Backhaus is expensive and OOP, is it not? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 01, 2011, 06:36:55 AM
Quote from: George on July 01, 2011, 06:35:10 AMThough the Backhaus is expensive and OOP, is it not?



Amazon lists it for $52, and a seller for $30 something.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 01, 2011, 06:57:45 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 01, 2011, 06:27:25 AM

Top choices meeting these criteria would be Kempff, Backhaus (stereo), or Heidsieck. 

Heartily seconded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 01, 2011, 08:06:49 AM
Thanks, again!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Quote from: George on July 01, 2011, 06:35:10 AM
Haven't heard Lortie, but I agree with the others. Though the Backhaus is expensive and OOP, is it not?

The Lortie still awaits listening in my "Awaits Listening" cupboard.  :(

Nah, that's the MONO Backhaus that's impossible to get (last seen in Italy...)
The stereo was re-released four years ago in the US (a little before that in Germany)... and it's just magnificent.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WnW%2Bhny9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Backhaus
Beethoven
Sonatas (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E0LB7C/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Nah, that's the MONO Backhaus that's impossible to get (last seen in Italy...)
The stereo was re-released four years ago in the US (a little before that in Germany)... and it's just magnificent.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WnW%2Bhny9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Backhaus
Beethoven
Sonatas (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E0LB7C/goodmusicguide-20)

FWIW, there was a period of time (which has since passed) that that set was getting expensive.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 01, 2011, 12:06:28 PM
I think Kempff's stereo cycle on DG is most remarkable for his beautiful sparling tone  f you dramatic, emotional contrasts, or interesting ideas about phrasing and voice leading, or indeed a "vision" , then maybe you will be disappointed.

I really have rarely enjoyed Backaus's stereo cycle, to me he sounds clunky and inelegant quite often. There are some moments which I think are good enough -- Op 27/1 for example -- but not enough of them.

I think if you want a good affordable set with reasonable sound, consider Claude Frank's.

My favourite set is Arrau -- and I would recommend this without hesitation as the one to get if artistry is the main consideration. But maybe the cost is prohibitive.

But at the end of the day you have to listen to everything and decide what you like -- let youtube be your tutor and then make an investment, take a risk.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 12:49:15 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 01, 2011, 12:06:28 PM

My favourite set is Arrau -- and I would recommend this without hesitation as the one to get if artistry is the main consideration. But maybe the cost is prohibitive.

Arrau sounded FANTASTIC on LP but not QUITE as good on CD. It will be re-released at the end of the year or early next. At low mid-price.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2011, 12:59:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 12:49:15 PM
Arrau sounded FANTASTIC on LP but not QUITE as good on CD. It will be re-released at the end of the year or early next. At low mid-price.

Thanks for the great news! I am glad I held out so long.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2011, 01:47:25 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 01, 2011, 02:15:24 AM
I suppose, that you mean PI = period instruments sets.

Only four complete sets have been made AFAIK, and they are all rather expensive or unavailable.
Thank you.  I was afraid you would say that.  Will  keep my eyes posted for Badura Skoda
Quote
The incomplete set by Melvin Tan (Virgin) is cheap. Tans playing is perfectionistic and often earthbound.
You just reminded me:  I have a 4 CD set from Virgin in which Tan plays the concertos, the Choral Fantasy, and on the fourth CD, a selection of solo piano pieces.    I rather like the concertos, but I found the solo works to be rather dull. I probably haven't played that particular CD in about 3 or 4 years.   I don't even remember which ones are on it: I think they're a collection of variations and bagatelles. 

Quote from: Todd on July 01, 2011, 06:27:25 AM

  Seymour Lipkin's cycle is available for $20 in CD-ROM form and also comes with all of the scores.  The music is in MP3 format, so you'd have to sacrifice some sound quality. 

Is that available through the standard vendors, or just through some specialist venue?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 01, 2011, 01:47:25 PM
Lipkin:
Is that available through the standard vendors, or just through some specialist venue?

Available through standard vendors alright... (Also as regular CDs [three sets], if one were to prefer that.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TJR6M1CZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Beethoven Sonatas MP3 + Scores (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002JP49Q/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2011, 07:00:55 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2011, 03:02:37 PM
Available through standard vendors alright... (Also as regular CDs [three sets], if one were to prefer that.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TJR6M1CZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Beethoven Sonatas MP3 + Scores (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002JP49Q/goodmusicguide-20)

MY initial enthusiasm from this afternoon has worn off.  But I'll be keeping the option in mind.  In the meantime,  I'm thinking of a quadruple play:  ordering Kempff, Gulda,  Backhaus and (I know Todd will shudder) Gould.    But not for at least a week.  My credit card bill for this month is already ridiculously high.

ETA: Gould can wait.   The Sony budget box I noticed on Amazon is missing a number of the sonatas he recorded,   so it's not really so budgety.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on July 01, 2011, 09:00:05 PM
Has anyone here come across this recording:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/ATOP_8001__15692__01152009113557-8272.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 01, 2011, 11:28:37 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 01, 2011, 01:47:25 PM
You just reminded me:  I have a 4 CD set from Virgin in which Tan plays the concertos, the Choral Fantasy, and on the fourth CD, a selection of solo piano pieces.    I rather like the concertos, but I found the solo works to be rather dull. I probably haven't played that particular CD in about 3 or 4 years.   I don't even remember which ones are on it: I think they're a collection of variations and bagatelles. 

Yes, Tan seems also to me more inspired in the concertos.

One important period pianist I forgot in the list for you, because his set even is incomplete so far, is Paul Komen (Globe), whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. His interpretatioms are conceived in a classical spirit, and are expressive without idiosyncrasies. His recordings are not just cheap but well worth the cost. Nobody knows if he is going to complete the set.

Link:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/22d46a7725f6c4527cdde565d1763a41/classic/search?rubric=classic&tracks=paul%20komen&pd_orderby=score&advancedsearch=1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on July 02, 2011, 04:55:02 AM
 Now taking in Piano Sonata No. 4, Op. 7 (The Grand Sonata and renamed "Verliebte").
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 02, 2011, 05:49:14 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 01, 2011, 07:00:55 PM
... I'm thinking of a quadruple play:  ordering Kempff, Gulda,  Backhaus and (I know Todd will shudder) Gould.    But not for at least a week.  My credit card bill for this month is already ridiculously high.

Internet is a wonderful tool to provide some spiritual relief. I am not alone; other people do the same crazy things.

What a gang of lunatics we have gathered here!  ;D :P :-*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 02, 2011, 05:57:50 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 02, 2011, 05:49:14 AM
Internet is a wonderful tool to provide some spiritual relief. I am not alone; other people do the same crazy things.

What a gang of lunatics we have gathered here!  ;D :P :-*

"The things you own, end up owning you. "

- Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 02, 2011, 06:06:14 AM
Quote from: George on July 02, 2011, 05:57:50 AM
"The things you own, end up owning you. "

- Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club

Unfortunately I have not purchased the Palahniuk novel.  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 02, 2011, 06:06:55 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 02, 2011, 06:06:14 AM
Unfortunately I have not purchased the Palahniuk novel.  :D

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 02, 2011, 06:14:50 AM
Quote from: George on July 02, 2011, 06:06:55 AM
;D

Although perhaps the correct reply should be: Fortunately I have not purchased the Pahlianuk novel. I mean in order to be coherent with the author. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 02, 2011, 06:26:54 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 02, 2011, 06:14:50 AM
Although perhaps the correct reply should be: Fortunately I have not purchased the Pahlianuk novel. I mean in order to be coherent with the author. ;D

Of course. FWIW, the movie is better than the book.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 02, 2011, 06:40:36 AM
Quote from: George on July 02, 2011, 06:26:54 AM
Of course. FWIW, the movie is better than the book.

You have a well-earned movie authority (based on excellent recommendations), so I will forget my natural aversion to Brad Pitt and I will watch this movie.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 02, 2011, 07:19:42 AM
Went ahead and pulled the trigger on this 'un:

[asin]B001CGJ3QS[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 02, 2011, 07:21:16 AM
Congrats on scoring that classic set, k a rl!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 02, 2011, 07:23:14 AM
Thanks, George!  Can hardly wait.  For the first time I can remember, I am in the mood to listen to the lot, straight through.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 02, 2011, 07:39:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 02, 2011, 07:23:14 AM
Thanks, George!  Can hardly wait.  For the first time I can remember, I am in the mood to listen to the lot, straight through.

I almost always prefer to listen to them chronologically. It's a fantastic journey.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on July 02, 2011, 08:03:01 AM
That was my first one Karl.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 02, 2011, 10:06:32 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 01, 2011, 11:28:37 PM

One important period pianist I forgot in the list for you, because his set even is incomplete so far, is Paul Komen (Globe), whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. His interpretatioms are conceived in a classical spirit, and are expressive without idiosyncrasies. His recordings are not just cheap but well worth the cost. Nobody knows if he is going to complete the set.

Link:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/22d46a7725f6c4527cdde565d1763a41/classic/search?rubric=classic&tracks=paul%20komen&pd_orderby=score&advancedsearch=1


have it bookmarked.  Am I right in undertsanding "innerhalb in 2-3 wochen" to be German for 'ships in 2-3 weeks"?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 02, 2011, 10:21:58 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 02, 2011, 10:06:32 AM

have it bookmarked.  Am I right in undertsanding "innerhalb in 2-3 wochen" to be German for 'ships in 2-3 weeks"?

You're right, but you shouldn't forget this part:

(soweit verfügbar beim Lieferanten) = (if it is available from the supplier)

This is important because JPC charges flat rates on its international shippings and when a specific item is not available, they simply cancel that part of your order and they send the remaining part what it is not usually a good deal for you.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 02, 2011, 10:52:10 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 02, 2011, 10:21:58 AM
You're right, but you shouldn't forget this part:

(soweit verfügbar beim Lieferanten) = (if it is available from the supplier)

This is important because JPC charges flat rates on its international shippings and when a specific item is not available, they simply cancel that part of your order and they send the remaining part what it is not usually a good deal for you.

[puts up a sticky to remind himself not to order from JPC unless it's really absolutely necessary]
Gracias.  But I'll keep the bookmark up to remind myself  to look for Komen on other sites.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 02, 2011, 11:59:20 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 02, 2011, 10:21:58 AM
You're right, but you shouldn't forget this part:

(soweit verfügbar beim Lieferanten) = (if it is available from the supplier)

This is important because JPC charges flat rates on its international shippings and when a specific item is not available, they simply cancel that part of your order and they send the remaining part what it is not usually a good deal for you.

Do you mean, that North- and South- American´s should avoid to order from JPC if the CDs are not on stock? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 02, 2011, 12:01:04 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 02, 2011, 10:52:10 AM
[puts up a sticky to remind himself not to order from JPC unless it's really absolutely necessary]
Gracias.  But I'll keep the bookmark up to remind myself  to look for Komen on other sites.

I think the Komen Waldstien is quite an eye opener in the first movement especially -- the wonderful piano gives an earthy, gutsy, joyful  quality to the music, I think. And there's a good one with the Diabelli Variations and some bagatelles.

By the way, I listened to Gilels plaing WoO 47/ 2 last night and quite enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 02, 2011, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 02, 2011, 10:52:10 AM
[puts up a sticky to remind himself not to order from JPC unless it's really absolutely necessary]
Gracias.  But I'll keep the bookmark up to remind myself  to look for Komen on other sites.

They are apparently easily available. Presto Classical and MDT lists them and even Amazon.com.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 02, 2011, 12:09:38 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 02, 2011, 12:01:04 PM
By the way, I listened to Gilels plaing WoO 47/ 2 last night and quite enjoyed it.

I always considered the three Electoral sonatas to be underrated. They are inventive and expressive works, which should be comtained in  every sonata integral.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 02, 2011, 12:21:32 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2011, 11:59:20 AM
Do you mean, that North- and South- American´s should avoid to order from JPC if the CDs are not on stock?
This will really depend on your order size. If you have a lot of items, one not shipping will not impact the cost per disc/set much. But if you have only a few and one or more doesn't ship, it might not make the purchase economical.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 02, 2011, 12:24:31 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2011, 11:59:20 AM
Do you mean, that North- and South- American´s should avoid to order from JPC?

No, not at all. JPC is one of my favorite stores. But their "ordinary" prices (not their items on special offer) are generally high for non-European standards and their flat shipping rates are criminal (EUR 28 to Chile). So when I order some items from JPC, I need to be sure that all of them will be available in order to prorate the shipping costs. If I just get a half of my order, it will usually be (from a financial perspective) a bad deal. Therefore, my usual policy is to choose principally those items "am Lager".     
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 02, 2011, 12:37:06 PM
Quote from: toñito on July 02, 2011, 12:24:31 PM
... their flat shipping rates are criminal (EUR 28 to Chile).

:o :o :o

Quote from: toñito
Therefore, my usual policy is to choose principally those items "am Lager".   

So Klinkhammer was financial suicide. I hope Book II is better than Book I, but I doubt it will be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 02, 2011, 12:40:21 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2011, 12:37:06 PM


:o :o :o

So Klinkhammer was financial suicide. I hope Book II is better than Book I, but I doubt it will be.

Not really because I ordered it from Amazon.de.... Fortunately.   :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 02, 2011, 01:05:35 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2011, 12:04:34 PM
They are apparently easily available. Presto Classical and MDT lists them and even Amazon.com.

So I've found out.  Vol. 2 is the scarcest, it seems (Presto out of stock,  Amazon US Marketplace has one copy for sale for approx. $30.   So I just ordered it from MDT, which apparently has it in stock.   Vol. 1, 3,4 and 5 are on my Amazon wishlist for now.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61IkdkeGqwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

So, G-d willing, I'll be hearing the Op. 53 of which Mandryka speaks before long. 

BTW, no one seems to be listing the Diabelli Variations. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on July 02, 2011, 01:13:56 PM
Charles Rosen gets no love, why?

I prefer players who communicate the late sonatas as avant-garde works, plus Rosen has interesting rubato and historical understanding up through Debussy and Webern. Makes Brendel look like a lightweight. People forget that he studied with Moriz Rosenthal.

I would say Gulda or Gilels or Kempff + Hungerford + late Rosen + late Pollini. Mono Serkin.
Gilels for his unique integrity and sound and phenomenal #7 and #25.
then Schnabel for humor and spontaneity (I would put him first for someone who does not listen with headphones and can tolerate old recordings).
Richter for later on.
For an abridged first view Gulda (or Schnabel or Gilels or Kempff) + Rosen.

Fortepiano ("... from a more civilized age")
Brautigam esp. Vol 6.
Late sonatas perhaps Lubimov & Komen. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 02, 2011, 02:03:45 PM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2011, 06:23:43 PM
6/32  :-[

From his website:

Sonata No. 8 Pathetique

Sonata No. 14 Moonlight

Sonata No. 15 Pastoral: 1969, New York and 1983, Brussels

Sonata No. 23 Appassionata

Sonata No. 26 Les Adieux: 1969, New York and 1970, Vienna

Sonata No. 27 Op. 90

I'm listening now to Moravec and it's his subtle touch and shading that add a dimension to Beethoven that many don't seem to strive for. I have 8, 14, 26 and 27. I've heard 23 but don't have it (thought I did somewhere) and have never heard his Pastoral and would love to as it's one of my favourite LvB PS to both listen to and play. I'll hunt it out from somewhere.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on July 02, 2011, 02:07:44 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 02, 2011, 01:05:35 PM

BTW, no one seems to be listing the Diabelli Variations.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wlPRgm7mL._SS400_.jpg)

Must be very rare by now, but very worthwhile IMO! :)

Since the fortepiano in the Beethoven-Haus was used, they sell it in their webshop (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=39601&template=ware_detail_shop_en&_mid=39158&skip=6) - might be wirth a try...but I'm not making any promises. ::)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 02, 2011, 04:43:33 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on July 02, 2011, 02:07:44 PM

Since the fortepiano in the Beethoven-Haus was used, they sell it in their webshop (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=39601&template=ware_detail_shop_en&_mid=39158&skip=6) - might be wirth a try...but I'm not making any promises. ::)

Q

Thanks, I suppose. My checking account is going to hate you when I order from there.  Site is bookmarked. About four other CDs that seem interesting....Good thing the Mahler birthplace doesn't have a gift shop.*

*And if it has one,  my checking account demands that you don't tell me about it!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on July 02, 2011, 04:47:37 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 02, 2011, 07:19:42 AM
Went ahead and pulled the trigger on this 'un:

[asin]B001CGJ3QS[/asin]

1 down and 2 more to go ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 03, 2011, 10:08:08 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on July 02, 2011, 01:13:56 PM
Charles Rosen gets no love, why?

I this "take" we discussed complete (or near complete) sets. This is the reason, why Rosen was not mentioned. If we had discussed recordings of the late sonatas, I would have mentioned him fairly early, as I like his authoritative but still unmannered playing very much. In the same way I have also enjoyed his recording of the Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 03, 2011, 10:21:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 01, 2011, 12:06:28 PM
I think Kempff's stereo cycle on DG is most remarkable for his beautiful sparling tone  f you dramatic, emotional contrasts, or interesting ideas about phrasing and voice leading, or indeed a "vision" , then maybe you will be disappointed.

I do not think that I always want dramatic emotional contrasts in Beethovens piano sonatas. My top six list however is composed in order to cover the most represented different approaches in the greatest versions. BTW I think, that Arrau´s (1960es recording) is the most all round interpretation of these six, being manly, emotional, poetic and rich in contrasts.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on July 03, 2011, 12:30:34 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 03, 2011, 10:08:08 AM
I this "take" we discussed complete (or near complete) sets. This is the reason, why Rosen was not mentioned. If we had discussed recordings of the late sonatas, I would have mentioned him fairly early, as I like his authoritative but still unmannered playing very much. In the same way I have also enjoyed his recording of the Art of Fugue.

I see. In my opinion one really has to divide early/middle and late sonatas, because interpretations address or not a fundamental shift in Beethoven's compositional style, though without losing humor. This is why Bruce Hungerford could have been the greatest cycle, Gilels for an expansive view. Solomon I find a little dry.

Paul Lewis is consistent in this regard but too precious.

I prefer Arrau's EMI sonata recordings to his later cycle, where I think he gets too distended and fat in the fingers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on July 03, 2011, 08:39:51 PM
Have been listening to Stuart Goodyear storm his way through the hammerklavier.  Excitement plus.  Unbelievable technique.  Haven't listened to the last three yet.

Has anybody heard Peter Takacs complete set on Cambria?  Any comments.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 03, 2011, 09:01:16 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on July 03, 2011, 12:30:34 PM
I prefer Arrau's EMI sonata recordings to his later cycle, where I think he gets too distended and fat in the fingers.

Even in the Waldstein?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 05, 2011, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 02, 2011, 01:05:35 PM
So I've found out.  Vol. 2 is the scarcest, it seems (Presto out of stock,  Amazon US Marketplace has one copy for sale for approx. $30.   So I just ordered it from MDT, which apparently has it in stock.   Vol. 1, 3,4 and 5 are on my Amazon wishlist for now.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61IkdkeGqwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Status report: MDT reported via email today that they and their supplier are out of stock.  So I've cancelled that order and it's back to the drawing board....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 05, 2011, 05:13:25 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 05, 2011, 04:38:19 PM
Status report: MDT reported via email today that they and their supplier are out of stock.  So I've cancelled that order and it's back to the drawing board....

Why not grab the amazon copy? Or at least a cheap ($6.99) download?

BTW, I find it puzzling that the record companies have not bothered to start selling their music via lossless download. Then people like you could get what they wanted instantly and save the planet at the same time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 05, 2011, 05:25:48 PM
Quote from: George on July 05, 2011, 05:13:25 PM
Why not grab the amazon copy? Or at least a cheap ($6.99) download?

BTW, I find it puzzling that the record companies have not bothered to start selling their music via lossless download. Then people like you could get what they wanted instantly and save the planet at the same time.

I probably will get the Marketplace copy, but I want to make sure MDT cancels the order first.

ETA 6 July 10:30 AM EDT  MDT confirmed the order is cancelled, so I'm ordering the Marketplace copy now in my other browser.  It's coming from Austria, so I may not get it until mid-August.  Patience is a virgin, as they say.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2011, 09:12:55 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 03, 2011, 10:21:52 AM
I do not think that I always want dramatic emotional contrasts in Beethovens piano sonatas. My top six list however is composed in order to cover the most represented different approaches in the greatest versions. BTW I think, that Arrau´s (1960es recording) is the most all round interpretation of these six, being manly, emotional, poetic and rich in contrasts.

Have yo heard Kempff's 1936 Beethoven sonatas -- he recorded a handful of late sonatas and they were relesed on CD on Dante.  He plays with really clear voicing, intense inwardness and a really breathtaking pianissimo. Another plays where I noticed he plays Beethoven really well is in the Kreutzer sonata with Kulenkampff -- he somehow manages to be very vigorous and dynamic, yet there's a sense of the music being classical, balanced, proportioned. I'm not sure that makes sense -- but anyway, it's good Beethoven playing.

Nothing has ever grabbed my attention like this from the DG sonatas -- but maybe you could mention somewhere where you think he's particularly successful there.

Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2011, 07:32:56 AM

Excellent, I'll have to investigate the Gieseking I think.

I'm hoping some enterprising company reissues the Riefling at some point.  I managed to track down six of the LPs, but I want the whole shebang.



If you do, please do report back. The Op 110 is really very special -- but you know that. You were the person who pointed it out to me!

I've heard a handful of others and I felt they were less inspired as interpretations. But if there are any others with the stature of the Op 110, that would be interesting.

There's a cost to his way with Beethoven -- all the rough edges are ironed out.  For me it's almost too great a cost: you end up with something close to tame. But in that Op 110  he sweeps you forward -- the music proceeds inevitably. And tonally it's ravishing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on July 08, 2011, 12:15:24 AM
Nobody has reviewed Buchbinders' latest complete set BUCHBINDER LEGACY.  They're live recordings made during the last few years.  I've only listened to the last two CDs, sons 28 - 32, and think they're stunning.  All of the control and intelligence of his first set but with the spontaneity of a live occasion.  Costs only $42 from Amazon US.  Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 08, 2011, 07:07:41 AM
Quote from: Fred on July 08, 2011, 12:15:24 AMI've only listened to the last two CDs, sons 28 - 32, and think they're stunning.  All of the control and intelligence of his first set but with the spontaneity of a live occasion.  Unbelievable.



I've only listened to the first two discs, and while I still have a ways to go, I can't say that I find the set as good as you do.  Perhaps he's much better in the late sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on July 08, 2011, 09:19:19 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 02, 2011, 07:19:42 AM
Went ahead and pulled the trigger on this 'un:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uiUQJIdsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
A fine choice, Karl. Let us know how you get on with it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 08, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
Looking forward to it, Dave; still waiting for it to land! : )

And, howdy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on July 08, 2011, 09:27:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 08, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
Looking forward to it, Dave; still waiting for it to land! : )

And, howdy!

Wow, that is such in important recording I am a bit surprised that you only now have gotten it.  It is arguably the only complete set anyone would need.  There are others I love, Arrau, Backhaus - but the Kempff is everything that one wants in those works.

Enjoy!
:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on July 08, 2011, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 08, 2011, 09:27:53 AM
It is arguably the only complete set anyone would need. :)
Yes...one of the few with which I would be well-satisfied were it the only recorded cycle I owned (though I slightly prefer the earlier mono set, which strikes me as somewhat more...contemplative).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on July 08, 2011, 11:42:11 AM
I have Brendel's complete set and all of the ones that Gilels recorded for DG. Lately I've been buying SACD versions by Michael Kortstick on Oehm and Igor Tchetuev on Caro Mitis. The latter is my favorite--his technique and interpretations are outstanding, as is the recoded sound. Both are in the midst of on-going cycles.

(http://www.sa-cd.net/covers/4933.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on July 08, 2011, 07:07:35 PM
Fully concurr on the Igor Tchetuev recordings--I have the first three volumes, and a 4th has been issued (including the Tempest) but not yet available easily in the US. Sensitive playing, and stunningly recorded.  I also just received Buchbinder, and have only listened to the first volume---powerful playing, and it will be interesting to explore the cycle in full. Always interesting to hear a live set, warts and all, without corrections for minor slips, if there are any. Sprung for the Peter Takacs set too, even though I know nothing of the artist , except that he teaches at Oberlin. Since I was very pleased with the Craig Sheppard set, perhaps this new set from another professor will be a find. In any event, listening straight through over a couple of weeks to a new set of Beethoven's 32 sonatas,  one of  the pinnacles of western culture, is always a treat. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on July 08, 2011, 07:47:43 PM
Quote from: Fred on July 08, 2011, 12:15:24 AM
Nobody has reviewed Buchbinders' latest complete set BUCHBINDER LEGACY.  They're live recordings made during the last few years.  I've only listened to the last two CDs, sons 28 - 32, and think they're stunning.  All of the control and intelligence of his first set but with the spontaneity of a live occasion.  Costs only $42 from Amazon US.  Unbelievable.

I have planned on getting Buchbinder's Beethoven Piano Sonatas as my last set of Beethoven Piano Sonatas since I already have 10 other sets, which are more than adequate IMO.  Unfortunately, his Teldec version is OOP, which may be re-issued down the road.  However, I know nothing about the RCA set ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on July 08, 2011, 10:16:21 PM
Buchbinder's new set was recorded live in Dresden in the last year. Interestingly, he's now finishing performing all the sonatas in St. Petersburg. He says he has performed the complete set some 40 times. The only other recordings I have by Buchbinder are his Brahms piano concertos with Harnoncourt, which are superb. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on July 09, 2011, 10:38:02 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on July 08, 2011, 10:16:21 PM
Buchbinder's new set was recorded live in Dresden in the last year. Interestingly, he's now finishing performing all the sonatas in St. Petersburg. He says he has performed the complete set some 40 times. The only other recordings I have by Buchbinder are his Brahms piano concertos with Harnoncourt, which are superb.

I have the Complete Haydn Piano Sonatas by Buchbinder on the WarnerClassic (formerly Teldec?) label ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 10, 2011, 04:08:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2011, 09:12:55 PM
Have yo heard Kempff's 1936 Beethoven sonatas -- he recorded a handful of late sonatas and they were relesed on CD on Dante.  He plays with really clear voicing, intense inwardness and a really breathtaking pianissimo. Another plays where I noticed he plays Beethoven really well is in the Kreutzer sonata with Kulenkampff -- he somehow manages to be very vigorous and dynamic, yet there's a sense of the music being classical, balanced, proportioned. I'm not sure that makes sense -- but anyway, it's good Beethoven playing.

Being too late to get the Dante releases, I do not own many of his prewar Beethoven sonata recordings. Only the sonatas no. 2,4,8,13,14,21,23,24,26, 30 as well as the Kreutzer sonata with Kulenkampff. I do not think the general approach in these recordings differs that much from his later recordings.

Quote from: Mandryka
Nothing has ever grabbed my attention like this from the DG sonatas -- but maybe you could mention somewhere where you think he's particularly successful there.

Kempff plays a Steinway grand, but Beethovens sonatas were not written for this instrument and its great dynamic powers, and this is why I find Kempff´s subdued approach relevant. And he displays some distinctive features in Beethovens music, which are (not surprising) the beauty and poetry. For that reason I find him most convincing in slow introvert movements like the slow movements of Sonatas 7 and 29. But since no pianist is able to capture all the different elements of Beethovens music in the one and the same performance, multiple collecting becomes mandatory. And note that I did not say that one of Kempff´s sets is the only one to have. If I was told to select only one set, I would tend to choose Arrau.

In 1965 I attended a Beethoven/Kempff recital (sonatas 18,23,24 and 28). These performances were freer and more rich in contrasts than his recordings, which I had learned to know only a short time beforehand.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 10, 2011, 04:41:12 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on July 03, 2011, 12:30:34 PM
I see. In my opinion one really has to divide early/middle and late sonatas, because interpretations address or not a fundamental shift in Beethoven's compositional style, though without losing humor. This is why Bruce Hungerford could have been the greatest cycle, Gilels for an expansive view. Solomon I find a little dry.

There is certainly much sense in discussing ones favorites for the early, middle and late sonates separately, but unfortunately most complete sets do not group the releases in that way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: karlhenning on July 10, 2011, 05:39:02 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 10, 2011, 04:08:47 AM
Kempff plays a Steinway grand, but Beethoven´s sonatas were not written for this instrument and its great dynamic powers, and this is why I find Kempff´s subdued approach relevant.

QFT.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 10:11:42 AM
Is there anyone else here who is a fan of Edwin Fischer's late , live, Beethoven? Such  a joyful spirit -- and you can really clearly hear his limpid piano tone.

You're not allowed to tell  me that he sometimes gets his fingers tied up. In a great pianist that sort of thing doesn't matter
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 10:15:36 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on July 03, 2011, 12:30:34 PM
I see. In my opinion one really has to divide early/middle and late sonatas, because interpretations address or not a fundamental shift in Beethoven's compositional style, though without losing humor. This is why Bruce Hungerford could have been the greatest cycle, Gilels for an expansive view. Solomon I find a little dry.


Can you explain a bit more about this fundamental shift?

Is the idea that some performers somehow are more sensitive to things in his earlier work than his later work? I'm not sure I understand. Help!

By the way -- I don't know why you mention humour. There's plenty of humour in the late music -- in the Hamerklavkier and in the Diabelli Variations and bagatelles.

The pianists I like most in Beethoven --  Arrau, Gould, Frank, Levy, Fischer (Herr and Frau), Schnabel, Richter, Sofronitsky, Yudina   -- all have successes and failues all through the sonatas. Maybe Gulda I like most in the earlier stuff (except maybe VVS and EL who didn't play any real early ones)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 10, 2011, 10:22:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 10:11:42 AM
Is there anyone else here who is a fan of Edwin Fischer's late , live, Beethoven? Such  a joyful spirit -- and you can really clearly hear his limpid piano tone.

You're not allowed to tell  me that he sometimes gets his fingers tied up. In a great pianist that sort of thing doesn't matter

Can't say I hjave heard it, but would love to. Hint Hint
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 10:23:38 AM
Quote from: George on July 10, 2011, 10:22:41 AM
Can't say I hjave heard it, but would love to. Hint Hint

OK that's easy.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 10, 2011, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 10:11:42 AM
Is there anyone else here who is a fan of Edwin Fischer's late , live, Beethoven? Such  a joyful spirit -- and you can really clearly hear his limpid piano tone.

I am surprised to read this. Of all the pianists born around 1890-1900 Edwin Fischer seems to me to be the one, who interpretation-wise is most akin to Kempff (or is related to a better way to express it?). I own and know the live Music & Arts twoCD, you think of. The relative small number of wrong notes in the live recordings does not bother me the least, but may I answer your question by saying, that I find E Fischers playing more authoritative and rewarding in his studio recordings of op.10.no.3 and op.57 and the Piano concertos no. 3 and 4? Have not heard the Emperor (with Furtwängler) so far, even if I own it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on July 10, 2011, 11:56:38 AM
QuoteKempff plays a Steinway grand, but Beethovens sonatas were not written for this instrument and its great dynamic powers

I don't think Beethoven was writing ideally for the pianos of his day since in his late works he wrote thing impossible for any piano, crescendo dynamic markings on a held note for example.  No, I think he was imagining a much bigger sound than any piano to which he had access could produce and think the Steinway a perfectly suitable instrument to fully realize his music as Beethoven might have hoped it could sound.

All speculation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 12:05:12 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 10, 2011, 11:19:39 AM
I am surprised to read this. Of all the pianists born around 1890-1900 Edwin Fischer seems to me to be the one, who interpretation-wise is most akin to Kempff (or is related to a better way to express it?). I own and know the live Music & Arts twoCD, you think of. The relative small number of wrong notes in the live recordings does not bother me the least, but may I answer your question by saying, that I find E Fischers playing more authoritative and rewarding in his studio recordings of op.10.no.3 and op.57 and the Piano concertos no. 3 and 4? Have not heard the Emperor (with Furtwängler) so far, even if I own it.

Yes no doubt the earlier Fischer recordings are greater documents. I know 10/3 best -- I'm interested in the early sonatas. It's a long time since I heard Kempff's stereo 10/3 but I know the mono one reasonably well. To my ears it's fussier than Fischer's, it's not as plain speaking, though I appreciate that that's not very clear. Neither is it as intense, driven. But the mono Kempff 10/3 is good, no doubt about it. I haven't ripped the stereo recording so it's a bit harder for me to hear.

I still appreciate those live sonatas for the sound. And the conception. You know, he suffered from stage fright badly.

One Kempff recording I haven't heard is the PC 4 (Beethoven) on Testament (I have the other one he recorded but I don't much like it.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 10, 2011, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 12:05:12 PM

One Kempff recording I haven't heard is the PC 4 (Beethoven) on Testament (I have the other one he recorded but I don't much like it.

I wonder which one this is. I mean, I have not seen recordings by Kempff released on Testament.

To my knowledge he made three recordings of the PC 4.

One prewar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One mono postwar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One stereo recording conducted by F Leitner.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 01:13:54 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 10, 2011, 12:26:00 PM
I wonder which one this is. I mean, I have not seen recordings by Kempff released on Testament.

To my knowledge he made three recordings of the PC 4.

One prewar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One mono postwar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One stereo recording conducted by F Leitner.
Sorry I meant Fischer -- this one

[asin]B00000G400[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on July 10, 2011, 03:18:47 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2011, 10:15:36 AM
Can you explain a bit more about this fundamental shift?

Is the idea that some performers somehow are more sensitive to things in his earlier work than his later work? I'm not sure I understand. Help!

By the way -- I don't know why you mention humour. There's plenty of humour in the late music -- in the Hamerklavkier and in the Diabelli Variations and bagatelles.

The pianists I like most in Beethoven --  Arrau, Gould, Frank, Levy, Fischer (Herr and Frau), Schnabel, Richter, Sofronitsky, Yudina   -- all have successes and failues all through the sonatas. Maybe Gulda I like most in the earlier stuff (except maybe VVS and EL who didn't play any real early ones)

I agree.
I said "without losing humor" because I meant that the best interpretations of the late sonatas preserve the humor. Seems like it appeared I meant something else.

In terms of fundamental shift, I see the late sonatas as more unbounded and metaphysical in character (and concentrated and fugal), but not without humor and sentiment. They are also highly innovative in structure and harmony, so I prefer interpretations which clearly understand and capture these qualities (e.g. Rosen).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 08:47:41 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on July 10, 2011, 03:18:47 PM
I agree.
I said "without losing humor" because I meant that the best interpretations of the late sonatas preserve the humor. Seems like it appeared I meant something else.

In terms of fundamental shift, I see the late sonatas as more unbounded and metaphysical in character (and concentrated and fugal), but not without humor and sentiment. They are also highly innovative in structure and harmony, so I prefer interpretations which clearly understand and capture these qualities (e.g. Rosen). [my emphasis]

I think you're touching on something very interesting. One think I feel about late Beethoven is that the music is modernist in spirit -- revolutionary, forward looking. And that this is often obscured -- by Arrau for example, or Ney. These pianists put the accent on something transcendental, and in doing so hide the modernity.

You've made me keen to listen to Rosen again. And to hear some more Hungerford (I have one CD, with the Waldstien, which I haven't given enough attention to)

What do you think of Maria Grinberg?  She tries to capture this modernist spirit.

By the way, I've become very keen to hear Arrau's third cycle. The one that was marketed Arrau Heritage. Can anyone help. A link to the set for sale or something (I'm not trying to scrounge an upload :) ) I can't see it anywhere.
 
I've been enjoyig Arrau's very late recordings over the past couple of days, in the Final Recordings box. There's a lovely Op 79.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 13, 2011, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 08:47:41 AM

By the way, I've become very keen to hear Arrau's third cycle. The one that was marketed Arrau Heritage. Can anyone help. A link to the set for sale or something (I'm not trying to scrounge an upload :) ) I can't see it anywhere.
 

Those Heritage boxes are rare. Weren't they limited edition?

BTW, I now have all three Arrau (EMI, incomplete; Philips analog and digital) LvB sets and plan to do some comparitive listening soon. Will post muy findings here. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 13, 2011, 09:42:28 AM
Arrau has three cycles?  Just how much of the cycle did he record for EMI?  The online discographies show pretty large gaps, so large that I don't know how it can be called a cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 13, 2011, 10:31:19 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 13, 2011, 09:42:28 AM
Arrau has three cycles?  Just how much of the cycle did he record for EMI?  The online discographies show pretty large gaps, so large that I don't know how it can be called a cycle.

To me, it is significant enough to be called an incomplete set because it was recorded much earlier than the other two and it tends to get overlooked. I haven't added them up and I am not at home, but between the Icon set and the earlier 5CD LvB set, there's gotta be more than a third of the full set there. In my book that's enough to call it an incomplete set. Technically, he only has one complete set, the analog one he did for Philips in the sixties.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 10:52:55 AM
For EMI there's sonata # 14, 21, 18, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32 -- 25% of a cycle.

For Columbia there was Op 53 and Op 81a

There are some live recordings of course, on APR (has anyone heard the late sonatas there?) And on BBC Legends, and no doubt elesewhere -- And some DVDs -- including  Op 111 on VAI

Sorry about mixing opus numbers and sonata numbers -- it's how they are tagged on my system.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 13, 2011, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 10:52:55 AM
For EMI there's sonata # 14, 21, 18, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32 -- 25% of a cycle.

There are two that are in the EMI Icon set that weren't in the earlier 5CD set. 24 and 7. That brings us to ten for EMI.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 13, 2011, 12:23:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 10:52:55 AM
For EMI there's sonata # 14, 21, 18, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32 -- 25% of a cycle.

For Columbia there was Op 53 and Op 81a

There are some live recordings of course, on APR (has anyone heard the late sonatas there?)  And on BBC Legends, and no doubt elesewhere -- And some DVDs -- including  Op 111 on VAI

Sorry about mixing opus numbers and sonata numbers -- it's how they are tagged on my system.

Do you mean this one? I have it and quite like it. I got it mainly for Op 111 to complement my recording from the DVD of the same work. I was not disappointed.

[asin]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cnawIfx0L._SL500_AA300[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 12:46:45 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 13, 2011, 12:23:10 PM
Do you mean this one? I have it and quite like it. I got it mainly for Op 111 to complement my recording from the DVD of the same work. I was not disappointed.

[asin]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cnawIfx0L._SL500_AA300[/asin]

I meant this one (your image doesn't work)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cnawIfx0L._AA115_.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 14, 2011, 02:08:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 12:46:45 PM
I meant this one (your image doesn't work)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cnawIfx0L._AA115_.jpg)

Thanks for that - I use IE8 at work and it's awful for posting images. This was the one I meant.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 14, 2011, 04:40:04 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 01, 2011, 06:27:25 AM

It's not out yet and keeps getting delayed.  If it comes out as scheduled, I'll have it later this month

It's (apparently) definitely coming out now; it's been included in Naxos' July release calendar.
Looking very good, actually... (literally: the booklet and packaging look very promising).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on July 14, 2011, 08:24:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2011, 08:47:41 AM
What do you think of Maria Grinberg?  She tries to capture this modernist spirit.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with her.

I think Hungerford is agile, unstudied, a little reckless, in the vein of Schnabel. Sounds classical, or modern in retrospect i.e. not trying too hard. It many ways an ideal Beethoven pianist.

Rosen is also in the interpretive vein of Schnabel regarding affect and tempi. Not as much spontaneity or poetry, but with an interesting and subtle rubato. Rugged, and importantly not too sensual in tone. Still natural sounding, though, unlike the glassy Pollini recording, which I like, however.
The great advantage of Rosen is his intellectual understanding of the music--its innovations, what it is, and what it's not. So I trust him as a guide to the music, which is(was) avant-garde but pre-romantic (without romantic baggage).
His most well known CBS recording of the late sonatas he recorded shortly before or while writing The Classical Style. But he's not pedantic.
In any case, maybe he's not the most beguiling pianist, but he's a formidable and reliable guide to the late sonatas.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 14, 2011, 11:18:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 14, 2011, 04:40:04 AM
It's (apparently) definitely coming out now; it's been included in Naxos' July release calendar.
Looking very good, actually... (literally: the booklet and packaging look very promising).

Amazon has it available for pre order; it's on my wish list at the moment.  I'll wait and see how much the Marketplace discounts it off the $80 or so Amazon lists it for (the last time I looked).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 14, 2011, 11:35:53 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 14, 2011, 11:18:52 AM
Amazon has it available for pre order; it's on my wish list at the moment.  I'll wait and see how much the Marketplace discounts it off the $80 or so Amazon lists it for (the last time I looked).
The regular asking price is $99,- ... it's a high-quality, limited set of SACDs... I'd be surprised if it fell further than 20% below asking price any time soon, if at all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 14, 2011, 12:40:50 PM
Greetings to all!  It's been a long while since I've posted in these parts; I've been rather busy with kids and new job(s), but all is well, and Beethoven continues to feed the soul. 

I've been listening to the Teaching Company's course on the LvB sonatas, and that plus the present thread prompted me to go through ye olde shelves and see what I have on hand, and ponder perhaps another set or two.  I'm currently in possession of the following sets (leaving aside singles and what-not):

Schnabel (Naxos)
Nat
Kempff (mono)
Arrau (60s)
Backhaus (stereo)
Gulda (Brilliant Classics)
Frank
Kuerti
Annie Fischer
Ashkenazy
Barenboim II
O'Conor
Gilels
Goode
Brendel III
Kovacevich
Lewis

My all-time fave is probably Gilels (his Moonlight sonata was the 1st Beethoven CD I ever owned, and I still find it truly magical), though of course preferences vary depending on the sonata, the weather, and what I had for breakfast.  I tend to lean towards a more lyrical approach (Gilels, Arrau, Nat), although some Backhaus-style thunder is essential to change things up now and then.  My most recent listening has been Schnabel -- I'm a sucker for historical recordings, I like how it's rather like climbing into a time machine, and how my imagination will fill in and round off the bits that the recording misses, as with Furtwangler or Toscanini in the symphonies.  I'll agree with the crowd that I really like Naxos transfers, they're a nice compromise between noise and clarity.

Any suggestions or favorite sets that I'm missing?  I may pick up Kempff's stereo set since it's so cheap at the moment.  I'm looking to add at least one set on a period instrument, since I have none at this point (not even a single CD, though I have plenty of PI in Haydn & Bach, so I'm not averse).

Cheers,
jwinter
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 14, 2011, 12:44:28 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 14, 2011, 12:40:50 PMAny suggestions or favorite sets that I'm missing?



The one that jumps out immediately is Eric Heidsieck's cycle.  An individual but indispensable cycle.  Kempff's stereo set is superb, of course, but if you already have the mono set, I'd try another pianist first.  Can't really help on the HIP side much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2011, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 14, 2011, 12:40:50 PM

Any suggestions or favorite sets that I'm missing?  I may pick up Kempff's stereo set since it's so cheap at the moment.  I'm looking to add at least one set on a period instrument, since I have none at this point (not even a single CD, though I have plenty of PI in Haydn & Bach, so I'm not averse).



The Brautigam PI cycle comes to mind immediately.  There are available as individual CD sets but I do not know if there is a box.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 14, 2011, 12:59:43 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 14, 2011, 12:55:41 PM
The Brautigam PI cycle comes to mind immediately.  There are available as individual CD sets but I do not know if there is a box.

Yes, for PI, Brautigam is great!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 14, 2011, 01:42:35 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 14, 2011, 12:40:50 PM

Any suggestions or favorite sets that I'm missing?

Cheers,
jwinter

Brautigam is stupendous, no question. Well covered everywhere else, I'd say.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 14, 2011, 02:08:30 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 14, 2011, 12:40:50 PM


Schnabel (Naxos)
Nat
Kempff (mono)
Arrau (60s)
Backhaus (stereo)
Gulda (Brilliant Classics)
Frank
Kuerti
Annie Fischer
Ashkenazy
Barenboim II
O'Conor
Gilels
Goode
Brendel III
Kovacevich
Lewis

Any suggestions or favorite sets that I'm missing?  I may pick up Kempff's stereo set since it's so cheap at the moment.  I'm looking to add at least one set on a period instrument, since I have none at this point (not even a single CD, though I have plenty of PI in Haydn & Bach, so I'm not averse).

Great to see you back in the forum.  :)

You are well served - also as to variety - by your collection. If the collection reflects your taste this is very similar to mine. Of the versions I favour the most - mentioned earlier in this thread - you are missing Heidsieck and Badura-Skoda. I agree with Todd that the Heidsieck is mandatory. Badura-Skoda´s PI set (Arcana) is next to impossible to get hold of, but his set on Gramola on a Bösendorfer is very fine too,
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on July 14, 2011, 03:34:15 PM
From what I have heard so far of Buchbinder's new RCA  live set (up to Op. 31), I would recommend it. Straightforward, powerful performances--a little like Gulda in my view. For a more lyrical approach, I enjoyed David Allen Wehr's set on Connassieur Society (order directly from them for best prices). I concurr with Brautigam for fortepiano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 14, 2011, 04:13:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 14, 2011, 11:35:53 AM
The regular asking price is $99,- ... it's a high-quality, limited set of SACDs... I'd be surprised if it fell further than 20% below asking price any time soon, if at all.

That's true, and compared to some other SACD sets....But let me put it this way.  There are enough other sets of the sonatas that I don't have, that I don't need to make this one a high priority.  I've got about fifty eight or so to catch up to Todd :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 14, 2011, 04:58:57 PM
Make that fifty five and a half to catch up to Todd.   Just ordered some sets through Amazon Marketplace that included

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uiUQJIdsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JJPv-iurL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517LSz-3K6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Gould set, btw, does not include all the sonatas he recorded, but at the moment it's the most economical way to get his performances of the concertos.


Meanwhile, the Takacs set is now being offered by Amazon for preorder at $76.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 14, 2011, 05:22:14 PM
QuoteThe Gould set, btw, does not include all the sonatas he recorded, but at the moment it's the most economical way to get his performances of the concertos.

That was really shitty of SONY to not include all the sonatas Gould recorded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on July 14, 2011, 05:50:49 PM
Quote from: George on July 14, 2011, 05:22:14 PM

The Gould set, btw, does not include all the sonatas he recorded, but at the moment it's the most economical way to get his performances of the concertos.


Meanwhile, the Takacs set is now being offered by Amazon for preorder at $76.


That was really shitty of sONY to not include all the sonatas.

I wonder how many of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas are in this 80-CD Original Jacket box set, which I bought a few years ago at $108 ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WCF2lN6aL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The asking price on Amazon is now $1K ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 14, 2011, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: George on July 14, 2011, 05:22:14 PM
That was really shitty of SONY to not include all the sonatas Gould recorded.

IIRC correctly, they left out nos 1-3 and 27, and Hammerklavier (no. 28, right?  I never remember the number for that one.)  The latter two were issued on a single CD by the Glenn Gould Edition that's fairly cheap now.  The motivating factor is that this set includes the concertos for about $22 on Amazon Marketplace, versus about $45 for the GGE set of the same performances.  With the difference, I can basically buy the GGE set that contains the first three if I decide I want them later.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 14, 2011, 06:02:16 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 14, 2011, 05:50:49 PM
I wonder how many of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas are in this 80-CD Original Jacket box set, which I bought a few years ago at $108 ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WCF2lN6aL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The asking price on Amazon is now $1K ...

Well, there's at least three of them there: the picture of Gould walking in the snow directly under the word "Original" is the cover of the CD that contains the Appassionata (and which by itself I think sells for about $10  on Amazon).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:05:02 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 14, 2011, 05:50:49 PM
I wonder how many of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas are in this 80-CD Original Jacket box set, which I bought a few years ago at $108 ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WCF2lN6aL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The asking price on Amazon is now $1K ...

I have that set as well and it is not a complete set of all 32 but I am pretty sure it is all the ones Gould recorded, which is close to complete.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on July 14, 2011, 06:09:08 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:05:02 PM
I have that set as well and it is not a complete set of all 32 but I am pretty sure it is all the ones Gould recorded, which is close to complete.

I bought the set mainly to get my hands on Gould's complete JS Bach recordings.  I have never equated Gould to much of a pianist for Beethoven Piano Sonatas ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:19:31 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 14, 2011, 06:09:08 PM
I bought the set mainly to get my hands on Gould's complete JS Bach recordings.  I have never equated Gould to much of a pianist for Beethoven Piano Sonatas ...

I didn't buy the set, it was a gift from my son - but his Beethoven is not bad, in fact some are quite good.  It is his Mozart which is un-listenable (for me).  His Haydn is okay, but I think he does Brahms surprisingly well, and his 20th century performances are very fine.  So, there more there than the Bach - but you are right, that is the main event.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 14, 2011, 06:23:04 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:19:31 PM
I didn't buy the set, it was a gift from my son - but his Beethoven is not bad, in fact some are quite good.  It is his Mozart which is un-listenable (for me).  His Haydn is okay, but I think he does Brahms surprisingly well, and his 20th century performances are very fine.  So, there more there than the Bach - but you are right, that is the main event.

:)

As much as I love his Bach, I love his solo Brahms even more.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 14, 2011, 09:57:35 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 14, 2011, 04:58:57 PM
Make that fifty five and a half to catch up to Todd.   Just ordered some sets through Amazon Marketplace that included

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uiUQJIdsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JJPv-iurL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517LSz-3K6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Gould set, btw, does not include all the sonatas he recorded, but at the moment it's the most economical way to get his performances of the concertos.


Meanwhile, the Takacs set is now being offered by Amazon for preorder at $76.

Gould's Op2s are interesting -- you're missing something important if you don't hear them. The Hammerklavier is very enjoyable and is well worth having.

Of the sets you bought, you'll get a lot of pleasure from the Gulda and Gould -- who share some basic ideas about how to play Beethoven.  The Kempff is in my view pretty worthless.

By the way, avoid Takacs Beethoven whatever the price.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 15, 2011, 03:01:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2011, 09:57:35 PM
By the way, avoid [Peter] Takacs['] Beethoven whatever the price.

Really? What's so awful about it? You've heard it or him live?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 15, 2011, 03:10:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2011, 09:57:35 PMThe Kempff is in my view pretty worthless.

I lived with the Kempff for a year or so. He never does anything actually wrong, but it's all so... 'normal,' so very plain. He's nigh Jandovian, albeit with slightly more spontaneity and speed and slightly inferior sound.

At any rate, once I picked up Emil Gilels' DG set I learned the difference between solid Beethoven and unforgettable.  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 03:34:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 15, 2011, 03:01:21 AM
Really? What's so awful about it? You've heard it or him live?

I'm sorry -- it was a knee jerk, thoughtless reeaction on my part. I was forgetting that this was a discussion about piano music and I was thinking of the Takacs quartet!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 15, 2011, 04:39:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 03:34:37 AM
I'm sorry -- it was a knee jerk, thoughtless reeaction on my part. I was forgetting that this was a discussion about piano music and I was thinking of the Takacs quartet!

I was more ready to accept Peter Takacs's performances -- unheard -- as trash than I am to agree with you about the merit of the Takacs String Quartet's Beethoven recordings.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 06:59:30 AM
I thought they were very  brash  -- especially in the Rasumowskies but I wasn't very favourable about the late ones either. In a field, where there is a plethora of interesting interpretations on record. The Takac are ofen disappointing on record -- in the Beethoven and in Haydn.

I've seen them live playing Bartok and Mozart and Schubert  -- a handful of times. They were OK.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 07:00:50 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 15, 2011, 03:10:09 AM
I lived with the Kempff for a year or so. He never does anything actually wrong, but it's all so... 'normal,' so very plain. He's nigh Jandovian, albeit with slightly more spontaneity and speed and slightly inferior sound.

At any rate, once I picked up Emil Gilels' DG set I learned the difference between solid Beethoven and unforgettable.  0:)

I think Kempff does do something wrong. Because he so often has nothing whatsoever to say, all we are left with is his glittering piano and his virtuosity. That's close to narcissism.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 15, 2011, 07:11:30 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 07:00:50 AM
I think Kempff does do something wrong. Because he so often has nothing whatsoever to say, all we are left with is his glittering piano and his virtuosity. That's close to narcissism.
I really don't understand this comment. It is clear (at least to me) that he has a tremendous amount to say. I find his versions searching, transparent, and compelling. I don't figure out why you don;t think the same. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying he says everything or that he does them better than others. I am just saying that I think it is clear he has Beethoven under his skin. I can provide examples, but it doesn't sound like it will help. Perhaps a better example is Barenboim - I really don't like his Beethoven at all. But I will be the first to say he clearly is a master of the material. He certainly has something to say.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 07:30:26 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 15, 2011, 07:11:30 AM
I really don't understand this comment. It is clear (at least to me) that he has a tremendous amount to say. I find his versions searching, transparent, and compelling. I don't figure out why you don;t think the same. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying he says everything or that he does them better than others. I am just saying that I think it is clear he has Beethoven under his skin. I can provide examples, but it doesn't sound like it will help. Perhaps a better example is Barenboim - I really don't like his Beethoven at all. But I will be the first to say he clearly is a master of the material. He certainly has something to say.

This is one of the problems with the web -- we can't just listen to a recording together and you can point out what it is that you see. I'm quite open to the idea that there's something I've missed. And in one or two sonatas I quite like what he does (I think Op 79 was one place)

Look -- find one, preferably on youtube -- that you think works. Or I'll find one which I think really represents  his emptiness -- how about Op 2/2.

Re DFD I think there was always a group of people who were less than admirers, though I think everyone interested in singing acknowledges the value of his work. I suspect that there are even more people with strong reservations about Kempff's stereo Beethoven -- I don't think there can be any question of backlash.

Of course, I'm sure many people like Kempff (and DFD) just because he has lots of penguins. Or just because they haven't heard the alternatives and so their taste and imagination aren't so well developed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 15, 2011, 07:36:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 07:30:26 AM
This is one of the problems with the web -- we can't just listen to a recording together and you can point out what it is that you see. I'm quite open to the idea that there's something I've missed. And in one or two sonatas I quite like what he does (I think Op 79 was one place)

Look -- find one, preferably on youtube -- that you think works. Or I'll find one which I think really represents  his emptiness -- how about Op 2/2.

His Op. 110 in the stereo set is wonderful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 15, 2011, 08:02:26 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 07:30:26 AM
This is one of the problems with the web -- we can't just listen to a recording together and you can point out what it is that you see. I'm quite open to the idea that there's something I've missed. And in one or two sonatas I quite like what he does (I think Op 79 was one place)

Look -- find one, preferably on youtube -- that you think works. Or I'll find one which I think really represents  his emptiness -- how about Op 2/2.

Re DFD I think there was always a group of people who were less than admirers, though I think everyone interested in singing acknowledges the value of his work. I suspect that there are even more people with strong reservations about Kempff's stereo Beethoven -- I don't think there can be any question of backlash.

Of course, I'm sure many people like Kempff (and DFD) just because he has lots of penguins. Or just because they haven't heard the alternatives and so their taste and imagination aren't so well developed.
Happy to do so, though not sure if I will be able to tell which version on youtube is from that set. Does it matter? I would choose 109 even if it is not the best choice for him (which it is not in the mono set). It is the piece I know best. But 110 as suggested by George is fine with me too.

My reaction is particularly against 'has nothing whatsoever to say.' Even pianists that aren't as good as Kempff and are less interesting (let's say we could even agree on this for argument's sake) have something to say. Maybe I should ask what you mean by this? Perhaps we understand it differently.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 09:23:36 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 15, 2011, 08:02:26 AM
Happy to do so, though not sure if I will be able to tell which version on youtube is from that set. Does it matter? I would choose 109 even if it is not the best choice for him (which it is not in the mono set). It is the piece I know best. But 110 as suggested by George is fine with me too.

My reaction is particularly against 'has nothing whatsoever to say.' Even pianists that aren't as good as Kempff and are less interesting (let's say we could even agree on this for argument's sake) have something to say. Maybe I should ask what you mean by this? Perhaps we understand it differently.

Really what I meant was "has nothing to say beyond playing skilfully". You can hear it very clearly in Op 2/1. Gould for instance does have something to say -- along the lines of "this is very witty and amusing" It's interesting to press me to respond there --it's a question of vision: what the pianists think the music means.

Great interpretations find meaning n music, no? -- There was once where premont talked here about the meaning of Art of Fugue which was very inspiring. But in a way I think he was misleading -- the meaning is not in the music -- it's in the performance of the music.  The pianist creates the meaning out of his response to the score. Not so great pianists fail to do that.

Give me a bit of time to listen to Kempff's stereo Op 110. I'll be back, as The Terminator said.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on July 15, 2011, 09:35:03 AM
I think Premont's point is compelling:
"Kempff plays a Steinway grand, but Beethovens sonatas were not written for this instrument and its great dynamic powers, and this is why I find Kempff´s subdued approach relevant. And he displays some distinctive features in Beethovens music, which are (not surprising) the beauty and poetry."

On the other hand, I just don't think Kempff really gets the late sonatas. I can accept admiration for him everywhere else.
But in the late sonatas, he's just too soft in expression, and I find his written notes on the Hammerklavier unconvincing to put it lightly.
Good taste is not good enough.
In my opinion, Rosen (who understands the Hammerklavier better than most anyone), Schnabel, Serkin, Solomon, among others convey the late sonatas with greater fascination and style.

Throw in Gilels for a different sort of view, ditto Pollini and Richter.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 15, 2011, 09:39:34 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 09:23:36 AM

Give me a bit of time to listen to Kempff's stereo Op 110. I'll be back, as The Terminator said.

Incidentally it's not the late Beethoven which I find great with Kempff, but the earlier and especially the 'way-side' sonatas.
I think the 'lack of interpretation' is precisely why he was and continues to be admired... he doesn't "interpret" every last note, he plays them. With complete understanding of Beethoven, mind you (not just the notes), but without forcing himself on the music.

And his performances are still more 'interpreted' than Backhaus, who steps entirely out of the interpretation game and just leaves bare Beethoven at the end of it... and his Beethoven I find even greater. That said, I can see how one might find Kempff (stereo) just a little on the bland side... Kempff (mono) is a little more playful and especially the op.2 sonatas are exemplary of it. Might upload an excerpt or two if I find the time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 11:37:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 15, 2011, 09:39:34 AM


And his performances are still more 'interpreted' than Backhaus, who steps entirely out of the interpretation game and just leaves bare Beethoven at the end of it...

But that's logically impossible . . the score under-determines the performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 01:43:12 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on July 15, 2011, 09:35:03 AM
I think Premont's point is compelling:
"Kempff plays a Steinway grand, but Beethovens sonatas were not written for this instrument and its great dynamic powers, and this is why I find Kempff´s subdued approach relevant. And he displays some distinctive features in Beethovens music, which are (not surprising) the beauty and poetry."



Well for the moment let's grant premont his point about the instruments LvB wrote for.

I think there's a confusion between  subdued and dynamically limited. That's to say you can have an interpretation which is energetic, and which is full of dynamic and emotional contrasts, even though it's rarely very loud or very quiet. Gieseking at his best -- say the EMI Op 110 which Todd put me on to and which I love to bits -- is rather like that I think (from memory -- but I'm pretty sure) And so is Paul Komen's late sonatas and diabellies and bagatelles  (again from memory)

And you have to be careful about relevant. Relevant from the point of view of historical reconstruction, maybe. But nothing follows about reflecting  the author's intentions. And nothing follows about relevance for interpretation -- which is, effectively, to make Beethoven our contemporary. Falling into the genetic fallacy (it was like that so it should be like that now) and the intentionalist fallacy ( the author's intentions are overriding) are dangers here

The point about beauty and poetry is of course very debatable.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 11:01:47 PM
Quote from: George on July 15, 2011, 07:36:15 AM
His Op. 110 in the stereo set is wonderful.


I thought the first movement had some moments of artfulness -- particularly in the voice handling -- which robbed the work of its poetry.  The second movement was slightly more vigorous than I had remembered, nonetheless too leaden, elephantine,  and emotionally flat. Emotionally empty actually.

In the last fugue the tempo gradation is not as smooth as it could be.  I could hear precious little intensity in the arioso dolente, and very little grace in the second arioso.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 15, 2011, 11:17:40 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 09:23:36 AM

Great interpretations find meaning n music, no? -- There was once where premont talked here about the meaning of Art of Fugue which was very inspiring. But in a way I think he was misleading -- the meaning is not in the music -- it's in the performance of the music.  The pianist creates the meaning out of his response to the score. Not so great pianists fail to do that.


Note, that I talked about Bach´s music - not Beethoven´s.  Bach´s  music is so to say universal, permeated by musical symbolism and describing common human affects, and I think it it adequate to say, that the meaning is in the music, and that the performers task is to find and express that meaning, Bach´s music is timeless in a way, which makes the question of making the composer our temporary pointless.

Beethovens music rather expresses some personal experience, consider his music a kind of emotional diary, and this is the reason why his music must be "actualized" in a much more individual way by the performer in order to make it sound relevant to the listener of to day.

Probably I should not have used the word "subdued" about Kempff´s playing, since you seem to have got it wrong. I meant that his playing is set in a generally lower dynamic level, according to the ability of the instruments of his time. This is why his interpretation of the late sonatas seems relative restricted compared to his playing of the early sonatas , since the late sonatas imply instruments posessing more dynamic power and variation than the instruments of the early sonatas.






Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 16, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 15, 2011, 11:17:40 PM
Note, that I talked about Bach´s music - not Beethoven´s.  Bach´s  music is so to say universal, permeated by musical symbolism and describing common human affects, and I think it it adequate to say, that the meaning is in the music, and that the performers task is to find and express that meaning,

Direct me to some reading, either in English or in French, which is about this symbolism. Please  :).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 16, 2011, 07:59:46 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 15, 2011, 07:15:25 AM
Well, that only goes to prove that two people can have very different impressions of the same performances.  I also have the Gilels and find myself listening to Kempff about 10 times for every 1 time I choose Gilels.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a very good thing. Otherwise discussion boards such as this one would be very dull places where everyone just says, "This guy's Beethoven is the best" "Yup" "yes" "oh yeah" "agreed"  :)
And then there'd be no reason for anyone else to play Beethoven!

Quote from: Leon on July 15, 2011, 07:15:25 AM
I sometimes can't help but feel that when a performer/recording is given overflowing praise for a long time, that an inevitable backlash occurs and it becomes fashionable among some quarters to feel compelled to make negative comments about it.

Definitely agree with this too. It happens a lot with film too - thus the fashionable backlash against every single critically acclaimed movie by a token handful of people who think they "suck." I was part of the backlash against Avatar; my roommate in college was disgruntled about Citizen Kane!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 16, 2011, 08:07:06 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 15, 2011, 07:15:25 AM
Well, that only goes to prove that two people can have very different impressions of the same performances.  I also have the Gilels and find myself listening to Kempff about 10 times for every 1 time I choose Gilels.

And I enjoy them both equally.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 16, 2011, 08:42:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 16, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
Direct me to some reading, either in English or in French, which is about this symbolism. Please  :).

The musical symbolism in Bachs music is most prominent in his sacred works (e.g. the cross figure). The treatise which opened my eyes to this world was a chapter in Albert Schweitzer´s classic book "J S Bach" written about a hundred years ago. I read it in German, but this book on Amazon uk.´s list seems to be a photo copy of the the book in English.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Albert-Schweitzer/dp/1172310297/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310833425&sr=1-2

However, I suppose that this classic should be available in well assorted English libraries.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 16, 2011, 09:09:02 AM
If you Google : Symbolism in J S Bachs music, you will find some treatises about this topic, f.x. this:

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissboo7.htm
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 17, 2011, 02:51:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2011, 11:01:47 PM

I thought the first movement had some moments of artfulness -- particularly in the voice handling -- which robbed the work of its poetry.  The second movement was slightly more vigorous than I had remembered, nonetheless too leaden, elephantine,  and emotionally flat. Emotionally empty actually.

In the last fugue the tempo gradation is not as smooth as it could be.  I could hear precious little intensity in the arioso dolente, and very little grace in the second arioso.
Well, what I hear is a bit of the opposite. His 110 would not be a first choice for me, but the gentleness and elegance, in the opening movement for example, are a welcome relief compared to some others who seem to pound away. His use of rubato is gloriously restrained - I cannot stand it when some pianists feel they need to use it ALL the time, robbing the piece of its center. And then when he does use it, it accents the moment in a beautiful way.

The third movement seems a bit lacking compared to the first, but his vision is clearly there and he sticks to it. I don't understand the comment about lack of intensity. It could mean he doesn't drive forward enough, he doesn't play loudly enough, he doesn't pound the keys, etc. Perhaps you mean something else? In any case, the intensity is more of a slow burn than a burst.

All I can add, I guess, is that his Beethoven has given me many, many pleasures and inisghts into the music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on July 18, 2011, 09:00:32 AM
Does anyone know are there any bootlegs of Zimerman playing op.111 around? He played it in recitals often maybe year or two ago.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 18, 2011, 10:04:11 AM
Quote from: Drasko on July 18, 2011, 09:00:32 AM
Does anyone know are there any bootlegs of Zimerman playing op.111 around? He played it in recitals often maybe year or two ago.

Not as far as I know. In Beethoven sonatas I have him playing  the Waldstien from a concert in Salzburg in 1984 and the Pathetique from a concert a couple of years ago. Let me know if you want them
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 18, 2011, 05:33:39 PM
Thanks for the various recommendations, folks!  I just received a copy of Eric Heidsieck's set in the mail today, and am listening to the Moonlight as I type.  Very nice indeed; I'll listen through the whole set over the next couple of weeks (good to find a productive use for the 40 minute commute :) .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on July 19, 2011, 04:57:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 18, 2011, 10:04:11 AM
Not as far as I know. In Beethoven sonatas I have him playing  the Waldstien from a concert in Salzburg in 1984 and the Pathetique from a concert a couple of years ago. Let me know if you want them

Sure, why not. Thanks. There is quite fine video of Pathetique by him on youtube, from Japan I think.
And please do let me know if op.111 shows up, I'm on bit of a op.111 kick now.

Quote from: jwinter on July 18, 2011, 05:33:39 PM
Thanks for the various recommendations, folks!  I just received a copy of Eric Heidsieck's set in the mail today, and am listening to the Moonlight as I type.  Very nice indeed; I'll listen through the whole set over the next couple of weeks (good to find a productive use for the 40 minute commute :) .

Wow, Bill sighting! Haven't seen that square jaw in years. Passing in the night or you'll be sticking around? Good to see you post anyhow.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2011, 10:25:13 AM
Quote from: Drasko on July 19, 2011, 04:57:29 AM
.
I'm on bit of a op.111 kick now.


Some interesting ones I've heard recently -- Grinberg, Sokolov's Bolzano 2004, Pogorelich's second recording on DVD and the 2003 Athens concert (everything you would expect, but I love his style!) and Edith Vogel's live one from 1985. I have Lubimov's CD but I haven't given it much attention -- no good reason for that.

Also the Japanese remastering (from CD Japan) of Schnabel's second recording of it is well worth having
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on July 19, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
Sokolov I have some older recording, LP transfer I think. It's very good but I really have to be in the mood for it or my mind starts to wander off somewhere around second variation.
Pogorelich first, studio recording doesn't work for me, molto semplice e cantabile doesn't seem to be his forte.
I have the Lubimov, but same as you haven't listened to it yet.

Last two I listened were Edwin Fischer ('54 live) and Pletnev from Carnegie Hall. Pletnev also doesn't do molto semplice but is to me far more interesting than Pogorelich. Fischer's technique struggles mightily making his third variation quite underwhelming, but from there he gets the serene mood perfectly right, and his tone is beautiful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2011, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: Drasko on July 19, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
Sokolov I have some older recording, LP transfer I think. It's very good but I really have to be in the mood for it or my mind starts to wander off somewhere around second variation.
Pogorelich first, studio recording doesn't work for me, molto semplice e cantabile doesn't seem to be his forte.
I have the Lubimov, but same as you haven't listened to it yet.

Last two I listened were Edwin Fischer ('54 live) and Pletnev from Carnegie Hall. Pletnev also doesn't do molto semplice but is to me far more interesting than Pogorelich. Fischer's technique struggles mightily making his third variation quite underwhelming, but from there he gets the serene mood perfectly right, and his tone is beautiful.

That live EF is very dynamic -- I like it a lot.  I think  that Haskil was very moving in the theme to the arietta,  at 8'22 here

http://www.youtube.com/v/6deWQW9Ltcg


molto simplice? If you listen to Pogorelich in Athens you would think it's   adagio molto, semplice e cantabile not adagio,  molto semplice e cantabile  :)




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on July 19, 2011, 01:29:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 19, 2011, 12:10:33 PM
That live EF is very dynamic -- I like it a lot.  I think  that Haskil was very moving in the theme to the arietta,  at 8'22 here

Don't get me wrong I quite like that Edwin Fischer, not very technically secure but immensely beautiful. Not familiar with Haskil, will give it a spin later (wow, that guy gullivior has uploaded a lot of complete op.111s to youtube, something to check out over next few days).

Quotemolto simplice? If you listen to Pogorelich in Athens you would think it's   adagio molto, semplice e cantabile not adagio,  molto semplice e cantabile  :)
These days he plays even Mephisto Waltz pretty much adagio molto. Orbital (if you remember him, he used to post here) wrote very fine review of recent Pogorelich recital.

http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/05/17/pogorelich-plays-chopin-in-istanbul/ 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 19, 2011, 05:17:47 PM
Quote from: Drasko link=topic=2302.msg537410#msg537410
Wow, Bill sighting! Haven't seen that square jaw in years. Passing in the night or you'll be sticking around? Good to see you post anyhow.

Howdy bro!    I don't have the spare time or CD budget that I once had, so I don't know if I'll be around every day; but I plan to stick around.

Cheers,
Bill (JW)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 19, 2011, 05:37:53 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 19, 2011, 05:17:47 PM
Howdy bro!    I don't have the spare time or CD budget that I once had, so I don't know if I'll be around every day; but I plan to stick around.

Cheers,
Bill (JW)

Glad to hear it Bill!

That's the trick, right? To stay in touch here without going broke.  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on July 20, 2011, 12:52:44 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 19, 2011, 05:17:47 PM
Howdy bro!    I don't have the spare time or CD budget that I once had, so I don't know if I'll be around every day; but I plan to stick around.

Cheers,
Bill (JW)

That's perfectly fine. My budget isn't what it used to be as well, nor is the time. See you around bro. 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: George on July 19, 2011, 05:37:53 PM
Glad to hear it Bill!

That's the trick, right? To stay in touch here without going broke.  :D

Yessir, that is indeed the trick ;D   I happily did manage to pull together a fairly comprehensive (for my tastes) CD collection over the years, so now I'm planning to spend a lot more time focused on enjoying what I've got, rather than compiling an endless shopping list.  That way madness lies.

So as not to completely derail the thread, my current listening has been to the Op. 2 sonatas.  I've spun Eric Heisdieck, Claude Frank, and Alfred Brendel (digital set) over the past couple of days (so far I prefer Frank -- very clean, classical approach).  Who's your favorite pianist in these early works, and why?

   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 20, 2011, 07:29:01 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 06:20:55 AM
Yessir, that is indeed the trick ;D   I happily did manage to pull together a fairly comprehensive (for my tastes) CD collection over the years, so now I'm planning to spend a lot more time focused on enjoying what I've got, rather than compiling an endless shopping list.  That way madness lies.

Definitely.

QuoteSo as not to completely derail the thread, my current listening has been to the Op. 2 sonatas.  I've spun Eric Heisdieck, Claude Frank, and Alfred Brendel (digital set) over the past couple of days (so far I prefer Frank -- very clean, classical approach).  Who's your favorite pianist in these early works, and why?

Gulda (Brilliant/Amadeo) for Op. 2 as a whole. I love his clean, perky style in these works. For just Op. 2/1 and 2/2, my vote goes to Schnabel for his forward momentum and exuberance and Annie Fischer for intensity and tempo selection. However, neither of them get Op. 2/3 right, IMO. 

Here's my current faves, in order, for Op. 2:

1. Op 2/1 – Fischer/Schnabel --- Gulda, Ciccolini, Kovacevich, Backhaus, Barenboim, Nat, Serkin, Goode , Richter (Live Moscow, 1979)

2. Op 2/2 – Fischer/Schnabel/Hungerford – Casadesus, Gulda, Goode, Gilels, Barenboim, Backhaus, Nat

3. Op 2/3 – Goode/Gulda – Gilels, Kempff(m), Backhaus, Barenboim, Solomon(Pearl) Kovacevich, Solomon, Nat
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 20, 2011, 07:56:09 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 06:20:55 AMWho's your favorite pianist in these early works, and why?



From this thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10947.msg271728.html#msg271728)


2/1 – Fischer, Gulda, Pollini, Perahia, Schnabel

2/2 – Schnabel, Fischer, Gulda, Gulda (Orfeo), Hungerford

2/3 – Perahia, Fischer, Gulda, Backhaus, Brautigam


The pianists selected, Perahia excepted, generally play with a bit more heft or speed than usual, yet never lose sight of the more 'youthful' aspects of the sonatas, if you will.  (Okay, maybe Annie Fischer subjects the music to a heavy duty approach, but it works.)  Pollini is perhaps a bit of a surprise, but I really rather fancy his early LvB.  Perahia is his usual tonally mellifluous self, and keeps things a bit lighter.  Probably his best Beethoven to date that I've heard, though his 31/1 I heard in recital was also superb.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 20, 2011, 08:30:31 AM
Try to hear the Michelangeli 1941 Op 2/3, and the 1938 Arrau one.  Sound is pretty good in both cases.

Also Schnabel in Op 2/2 . Arrau's Philips Analogue Op 2/2 too.  The Richter Op2/1  that George mentions is good in the transfer I posted here once. Also Gould esp for Op 2/1 and Vedernikov for Op2/3 -- both do interesting things with the music. Gould especially.

I need to listen again to the FranK Op 2s. I can imagine they're very good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 09:10:44 AM
To all, thanks for the recs!  I think I have copies of the Schnabel and Gulda in my car, so that sounds like a winner for the ride home from work.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on July 20, 2011, 09:18:26 AM
While Michael Korstick's in-progress (or possibly stalled/abandoned) Beethoven cycle is not uniformly strong, he's just about perfect in the Opus 2 sonatas. The playing is precise and full of character but never forced or exaggerated. Korstick isn't talked about much, but I rather like him and wish his discography were larger.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 20, 2011, 09:30:04 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 09:10:44 AM
To all, thanks for the recs!  I think I have copies of the Schnabel and Gulda in my car, so that sounds like a winner for the ride home from work.  :)

I bet you get home faster than usual.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 20, 2011, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on July 20, 2011, 09:18:26 AMWhile Michael Korstick's in-progress (or possibly stalled/abandoned) Beethoven cycle is not uniformly strong


It's still chugging along, with volume 9 due out next month in Germany.  I've tried two discs so far and determined that I think I can wait until the complete set comes out at a lower price to hear the rest.  That written, I haven't heard his Op 2, so I may very well be missing the best stuff.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2011, 02:05:34 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on July 20, 2011, 09:18:26 AM
While Michael Korstick's in-progress (or possibly stalled/abandoned) Beethoven cycle is not uniformly strong, he's just about perfect in the Opus 2 sonatas. The playing is precise and full of character but never forced or exaggerated. Korstick isn't talked about much, but I rather like him and wish his discography were larger.

As mentioned, it continues to grow -- not just the Beethoven but his discography altogether.
What always throws me off is that, on pictures and in person, he looks JUST like N.Sarkozy.

In op.2 I very much like Marie Kodama. True, she probably wouldn't be recording LvB at all, if she weren't the wife of her husband, but I find it exemplary; non-fussy, simple, yet grand. For modern-piano enthusiasts, at least, a fine option.

Any opinion on Oppitz? I've not really gotten around to sampling his cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 20, 2011, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2011, 02:05:34 PMAny opinion on Oppitz? I've not really gotten around to sampling his cycle.



Well played, swift, stern, in not so hot sound.  Not at all bad, but not a great cycle either. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on July 31, 2011, 11:02:01 PM
Really, really liked Oppitz's set.  The sound has been rightly attacked as a bit bathroomy.  But I adjusted to that fairly quickly.  I love his ability to sound spontaneous in the recording studio - a talent not many have.

I mentioned before that I really liked Stewart Goodyear's double set of the late sonatas.  In fact, I think he's about the most amazing technician I've ever heard (though he's a lot more than that).  Just noticed that Jed Distler gave him a 10/7 (though I'm not sure why he didn't like the sound).


   LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN
Piano Sonatas Nos. 28-32
Stewart Goodyear (piano)

Marquis Classics- 81507(CD)
Reference Recording - Goode (Nonesuch); Arrau (Philips)

    rating

    Canadian pianist and composer Stewart Goodyear has been amassing quite a bit of attention lately, and deservedly so, judging from these vital, communicative, and intelligently stylish late-Beethoven performances. Swift tempos, forward sweep, linear clarity, imaginative yet never mannered inflections, and genuine joy in executing the composer's volatile dynamic markings all characterize Goodyear's interpretations.

    Op. 101's March movement and Allegro finale sound newly minted and utterly vital via Goodyear's polished fingers, while the "Hammerklavier" outer movements pretty much adhere to the composer's optimistic metronome markings. Even the slightly distant and drab engineering cannot mask Goodyear's ability to convey subtle levels of tone color and varied articulations with little help from the sustain pedal. At 15 minutes, you would assume that Goodyear is about to charge through the Adagio sostenuto, yet there's not a trace of militancy; the phrases really sing and breathe.

    The last three sonatas' final movements each benefit from Goodyear's seamless tempo relationships and long lined sustaining power. Other notable details include Op. 110's uncommonly distinct rapid left-hand figurations, and the manner in which Goodyear's finely honed dynamic shadings generate welcome note-to-note tension in the dotted rhythms of the Op. 111 first-movement introduction. In addition, a genuine and sincere spirit informs Goodyear's poetic booklet notes. An outstanding release, highly recommended.

    --Jed Distler
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 02, 2011, 12:12:38 PM
I finished listening to Buchbinder's sonata set. Overall I would rate it as good, but not outstanding. Quite traditional playing, with very fine technical skills. I found the late sonatas the weakest. For whatever reason, Buchbinder seems to lack that last little extra something that sets apart the finest Beethoven players. I can't quite describe it, but as Supreme Court  Justice Potter Stewart famously said about pornography, I know it when I see it.....next up is Prof. Peter Takacs' lavish production, which just arrived. Takacs certainly gets the medal for the most beautifully produced packaging, with beautiful photos, historical notes, and essays on the sonatas. One can only hope the playing is as good as the presentation. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 02, 2011, 12:31:36 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 02, 2011, 12:12:38 PMnext up is Prof. Peter Takacs' lavish production, which just arrived. Takacs certainly gets the medal for the most beautifully produced packaging, with beautiful photos, historical notes, and essays on the sonatas. One can only hope the playing is as good as the presentation.



Lavish packaging indeed.  The only more lavish set I have is the original Korean market Kun Woo Paik cycle.  Alas, its extensive notes are in Korean.  (Duh!)  I worked my way through the first five sonatas of the Takacs set last night, and without going into too much detail yet, I will say that I liked what I heard in terms of playing.  Sound is a bit reverberant for my taste, at least on the CD layer.  Hopefully sound improves for the more recent recordings in the cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:06:33 PM
Just started my listening of the Takacs Beethoven sonatas, and I think the set is going to be a pleasant surprise, if Op.2 is any indication of the overall quality. I agree with Todd about the sound--a rather distant concert hall sound, probably a lot more realistic than the mike in the piano sound of Buchbinder (and Craig Sheppard) but makes for a  kind of diffuse listening experience, especially for the left hand parts. The sound here kinda reminds me of the CD/SACD set of Robert Silverman, another fine set with rather diffuse sound. The best complete set I have heard soundwise is by Paul Lewis, though oddly enough his subsequent Diabelli Variations were  rather poorly recorded. Go figure. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 05, 2011, 01:13:47 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:06:33 PMThe sound here kinda reminds me of the CD/SACD set of Robert Silverman, another fine set with rather diffuse sound. The best complete set I have heard soundwise is by Paul Lewis



Agree with both statements completely, though I can report that the sound for Takacs is a bit less reverberant in the later recording sessions.  (If ever you want another SOTA sound cycle, Ikuyo Nakamichi's is in as good sound as Lewis', though with current exchange rates it's insanely expensive.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:28:35 PM
I have the Nakamichi concertos 3&5 with Paavo Jarvi on Japanese RCA, where the sound is fantastic (and the playing ain't bad either), but don't have the sonatas. How are they?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 05, 2011, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:28:35 PMHow are they?



They are variable.  She's better in earlier sonatas overall (Op 7 and Op 22 are both exceptional, for instance), but there are some solid late performances.  Except for hardcore collectors, I'd have to say the whole cycle is not worth the current asking price.

Incidentally, concertos 1, 2, and 4 are now available with the same forces.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:53:22 PM
Have you seen the l,2, and 4 concertos for anything less than the $48 asking price at cdjapan? For some reason this CD is about twice the price of any of her other CDs there, including concertos 3 &5!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:57:07 PM
By the way Todd, I have enjoyed very much the first three volumes of Igor Tchetuev's set on Caro Mitis (available through ArchivMusic at a reasonable price)--excellent playing AND sound (hybrid CD). On the Caro Mitis website there is a volume 4 that has been released (Op.7 and Tempest), but not yet available in the US according to ArkivMusic. Have you heard his playing? I think you would approve.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 05, 2011, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:53:22 PMHave you seen the l,2, and 4 concertos for anything less than the $48 asking price at cdjapan? For some reason this CD is about twice the price of any of her other CDs there, including concertos 3 &5!

It's two discs, so they are charging full price.  It's just plain expensive to import from either CD Japan or HMV Japan.  That's why I haven't order yet.  There are at least three other complete or near complete cycles I've not imported due to the exchange rate – Sugitani, Shimizu, and Sonoda 2.  (Given Sugitani's somewhat lackluster concerto cycle, I am hesitant to plop down good money for her sonata cycle.)  Maybe next year.


Quote from: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:57:07 PMHave you heard his playing?

Not yet, but Tchetuev is on my list of things to get.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on August 06, 2011, 10:51:08 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 05, 2011, 01:57:07 PM
By the way Todd, I have enjoyed very much the first three volumes of Igor Tchetuev's set on Caro Mitis (available through ArchivMusic at a reasonable price)--excellent playing AND sound (hybrid CD). On the Caro Mitis website there is a volume 4 that has been released (Op.7 and Tempest), but not yet available in the US according to ArkivMusic. Have you heard his playing? I think you would approve.

Actually, volume 5 has just been released! It contains No. 5 in C minor Op. 10 No. 1, No. 10 in G major Op. 14 No. 2, and No. 22 in F major Op. 54. They could certainly use better distribution.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 06, 2011, 04:17:44 PM
Toccatta & Fugue--any idea where to source the recent Tchetuev CDs?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 06, 2011, 07:29:01 PM
BRO's got Georges Pludermacher's cycle in stock for a mere $40.  Not at all a great cycle, and a rather gimmicky one with its four pedal Steinway, but in terms of sheer pianism, it has its charms. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on August 07, 2011, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 06, 2011, 04:17:44 PM
Toccatta & Fugue--any idea where to source the recent Tchetuev CDs?
JPC in Germany has them, but shipping to the US is prohibitive unless one orders quite a few CDs--they have a flat rate. Their product prices are rather high, too. I just emailed MDT since they have the first 3 volumes--I'm waiting for a reply. Their prices are much better than JPC's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 07, 2011, 01:18:23 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on August 07, 2011, 09:34:46 AM
I just emailed MDT since they have the first 3 volumes--I'm waiting for a reply. Their prices are much better than JPC's.

http://www.cduniverse.com/sresult.asp?HT_Search=ARTIST&HT_Search_Info=tchetuev&style=music

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on August 07, 2011, 01:37:04 PM
Quote from: toñito on August 07, 2011, 01:18:23 PM
http://www.cduniverse.com/sresult.asp?HT_Search=ARTIST&HT_Search_Info=tchetuev&style=music

:)

Yes, but they have only vol 1-3--we're talking vol.4&5!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 07, 2011, 02:01:42 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on August 07, 2011, 01:37:04 PM
Yes, but they have only vol 1-3--we're talking vol.4&5!

Sorry, then I don't understand your logical process, since they (CD Universe) also have the three first volumes, as you stated about MDT... and prices are better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on August 07, 2011, 03:22:02 PM
Quote from: toñito on August 07, 2011, 02:01:42 PM
Sorry, then I don't understand your logical process, since they (CD Universe) also have the three first volumes, as you stated about MDT... and prices are better.

We are trying g to find the more recent vol. 4 and 5. Both CDUniverse and MDT have the first three only. JPC has vol 4 but it is far more expensive than those other two sources--if they had it! MDT's price for Caro Mitas CDs is lower than CDUniverse's. Dang...this is getting complicated!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 07, 2011, 09:24:52 PM
By the way, there is a very fine video on youtube of Igor Tchetuev playing Mozart's Concerton No.9, K.271, with the Moscow Virtuousi conducted by Maxim Vengerov. This guy is just superb.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on August 08, 2011, 07:36:10 AM
Here is the reply from MDT regarding Tchetuev's Caro Mitis releases:

"We have had no news yet from the UK distributor when they plan to release them in the UK.
As soon as we do we will add the items to our web site, hopefully it will be in a few months."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 08, 2011, 08:12:52 AM
I sent ArkivMusic an email and they replied that they are checking into why the subsequent volumes have not been available in the US, as their site offers vols. 1-3
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on August 08, 2011, 11:00:35 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 07, 2011, 09:24:52 PM
By the way, there is a very fine video on youtube of Igor Tchetuev playing Mozart's Concerton No.9, K.271, with the Moscow Virtuousi conducted by Maxim Vengerov. This guy is just superb.

As long as we've temporarily veered off track, his Schnittke Sonatas are amazing, too.  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on August 08, 2011, 12:48:32 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on August 08, 2011, 07:36:10 AM
Here is the reply from MDT regarding Tchetuev's Caro Mitis releases:

"We have had no news yet from the UK distributor when they plan to release them in the UK.
As soon as we do we will add the items to our web site, hopefully it will be in a few months."

Just be patient.  Those additional volumes will show up  soon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 08, 2011, 01:13:04 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 07, 2011, 09:24:52 PM
By the way, there is a very fine video on youtube of Igor Tchetuev playing Mozart's Concerton No.9, K.271, with the Moscow Virtuousi conducted by Maxim Vengerov. This guy is just superb.

And some very good Chopin on Spotify, which prompted me to get Vol 3 of the Beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 09, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
How do folks rate the three available Barenboim cycles (EMI, DG and DVD EMI)?

I've only heard the DG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 09, 2011, 04:15:44 AM
Quote from: George on August 09, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
How do folks rate the three available Barenboim cycles (EMI, DG and DVD EMI)?

I've only heard the DG.
I'll let someone else compare the three (I have heard pieces of them all, but only a few discs worth). I have heard the DVDs in their entirety. The DVD does have a few advantages. First, it has the master classes, which I have now seen many times and feel they are really priceless. It is really quite amazing to listen to his thinking. They are really informative. Each masterclass also has a general Q&A. This is 4 hours of rich material that bears up to repeated listening/watching. Second, technically, the DVD is not as good as the others. You can clearly hear when he makes some mistakes in the playing (a minus, though being live has certain advantages too). That said, I enjoyed watching them being played and it is clear that whatever mistkaes he makes (and any disagreement you may have with the interpretations) that this is clearly someone who has 'mastered' the material and thought about how he wants to shape the music. His understanding of Beethoven is abundently evident and is worth it for that alone. I don;t think the mistakes take away from the impact, but could be important to you, so I mention it.

If you are going to ONLY listen to the music (and the masterclass doesn't interest), then the DVD is not the way to go for you. But if not, I would view the DVD as either the one to get or a necessary supplement to any Beethoven cycle. I think some of the masterclasses are on youtube as well if you are interested (they used to be - I assume they are still there).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 09, 2011, 04:28:06 AM
Thanks, thanks was very helpful!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brahmsian on August 09, 2011, 04:33:29 AM
Quote from: George on August 09, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
How do folks rate the three available Barenboim cycles EMI


This is the set I have George.  Good thing it's not an LP set or cassette, or it would have been worn out a long time ago!   :) 8)

It's gold George, gold!  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 09, 2011, 06:33:42 AM
Quote from: George on August 09, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
How do folks rate the three available Barenboim cycles (EMI, DG and DVD EMI)?


1.) EMI DVD cycle
2.) EMI & DG cycles (tie)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 09, 2011, 06:40:17 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 09, 2011, 06:33:42 AM

1.) EMI DVD cycle
2.) EMI & DG cycles (tie)

Thanks! I was hoping you'd stop by.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 09, 2011, 06:44:14 AM
Quote from: George on August 09, 2011, 06:40:17 AMI was hoping you'd stop by.



How could I not? 

I think it is fair to say that the DG cycle gets less love than the EMI cycle by most people, but I find them different enough, but with enough of the same traits, to say they are about equal.  I don't know for sure what would happen if push came to shove . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on August 09, 2011, 10:18:10 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 09, 2011, 06:44:14 AM
I don't know for sure what would happen if push came to shove . . .

I didn't know Daniel was so violent ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on August 09, 2011, 11:55:21 AM
I found this message on SACD.net today:

Let me comment on the current status of Caro Mitis US distribution

Albany (the distributor) has a number of outdated payments and, because of that, they are not ordering new titles. Shame. We got a number of messages from US customers and I do understand your concern. I'll follow up and personally discuss things with Albany management.

Michael Serebrynayi
Caro Mitis


Maybe once they pay their bills, we can get some more Igor Tchetuev Beethoven Sonatas.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Papy Oli on August 14, 2011, 04:38:04 AM
I have looked through Jens' link of the overview of sonata sets and I just wanted confirmation if my following understanding is correct regarding the various Brendel incarnations please :

------------
Brendel I on Vox (in various releases) is the same as the Brilliant release ? 

(http://papyuk.smugmug.com/photos/i-9GwJbhK/0/M/i-9GwJbhK-M.jpg) (http://papyuk.smugmug.com/photos/i-vVC7kts/0/M/i-vVC7kts-M.jpg)

----------------
Brendel II is Philips analog and has been re-released on the Decca boxset  ?

(http://papyuk.smugmug.com/photos/i-wRBXCBm/0/M/i-wRBXCBm-M.jpg) (http://papyuk.smugmug.com/photos/i-QLZXKmS/0/M/i-QLZXKmS-M.jpg)

------------------
These 2 partial CD's are part of the Brendel II ?

(http://papyuk.smugmug.com/photos/i-dGVgTCm/0/M/i-dGVgTCm-M.jpg) (http://papyuk.smugmug.com/photos/i-wG9xMR5/0/M/i-wG9xMR5-M.jpg)

----------------
Brendel III is digital Philips and is only this incarnation, no re-release ?


(http://papyuk.smugmug.com/photos/i-WJN6HQb/0/M/i-WJN6HQb-M.jpg)


thank you.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Renfield on August 14, 2011, 05:23:10 AM
I believe you are correct on all counts; though there is another re-release of the 70s cycle:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41O908O8erL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on August 14, 2011, 05:23:25 AM
Brendel I = Vox, re-released by Brilliant.

Not sure about the second cycle. But it was more widely released last year in a set that also includes the concerti (Haitink).

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/decca4782607.jpg)

Brendel III, recorded in the 90s, released by Philips, and re-released by Decca (same peek-a-boo cover) a few years ago.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Papy Oli on August 14, 2011, 11:03:04 AM
thank you both.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 17, 2011, 08:45:05 AM
Are these worth getting?
[asin]B005CIPMVW[/asin]

I think it was Todd who said he had problems with the sound quality,  but this is a very budgety price, although I've never heard of the label.

And this pianist, with whom I'm unfamiliar.
[asin]B000W7SB02[/asin]
[asin]B000W7SB0C[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on August 18, 2011, 11:04:39 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 14, 2011, 05:23:25 AM
[....]
Brendel III, recorded in the 90s, released by Philips, and re-released by Decca (same peek-a-boo cover) a few years ago.

So this must be the mystery one ;D:

(http://i52.tinypic.com/wimr6p.jpg)

(Bought it about 5 years ago .... another re-release of the third set.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on August 18, 2011, 11:22:27 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 18, 2011, 11:04:39 AM
So this must be the mystery one ;D:

(http://i52.tinypic.com/wimr6p.jpg)

(Bought it about 5 years ago .... another re-release of the third set.)

I'm guessing it was one of those sets which was sold at only one shop in a tiny lane somewhere in Amsterdam? :P ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 18, 2011, 12:03:06 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 17, 2011, 08:45:05 AM
Are these worth getting?
[asin]B005CIPMVW[/asin]

I think it was Todd who said he had problems with the sound quality,  but this is a very budgety price, although I've never heard of the label.

I have owned this Schnabel release (discarded it rather fast). The sound quality is horrible, even worse than the too much filtered EMI release from the 1990es.




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 18, 2011, 12:06:09 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 18, 2011, 12:03:06 PM
I have owned this Schnabel release (discarded it rather fast). The sound quality is horrible, even worse than the too much filtered EMI release from the 1990es.

Damn, didn't know it could have gotten worse than that.  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on August 18, 2011, 12:07:34 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 18, 2011, 11:22:27 AM
I'm guessing it was one of those sets which was sold at only one shop in a tiny lane somewhere in Amsterdam? :P ;D

Hm, I'm trying so hard to remember .... I keep on trying ....

AAAAAAAAH! YES!

The lady who sold it to me was called Blonde Sjaan, and her shop was located in the Oudezijds Achterburgwal.

:P ;D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 18, 2011, 01:36:03 PM
Quote from: George on August 18, 2011, 12:06:09 PM
Damn, didn't know it could have gotten worse than that.  :o

Okay, I'll drop that off the wishlist.  Thank you gentlemen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 18, 2011, 01:42:15 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 18, 2011, 01:36:03 PM
Okay, I'll drop that off the wishlist.  Thank you gentlemen.

Have you heard (or own) any of other transfers? The Naxos remain my favorite and can be ordered easily from MDT: click here. (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/search/searchresults.asp?sGeneralSearch=Naxos+Beethoven+Schnabel&sGeneralSearchSection=General&x=0&y=0&startfrom=1&sCatalogueNumber=&submitflag=true&sMSLSort=Filter2Date+DESC%2C+ProductView+DESC%2C+SaleView+DESC&bSortBy=ASC&serial=11081881668105365)

Each CD is $7.43 (US customers don't pay the VAT.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 18, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
Quote from: George on August 18, 2011, 01:42:15 PM
Have you heard (or own) any of other transfers? The Naxos remain my favorite and can be ordered easily from MDT: click here. (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/search/searchresults.asp?sGeneralSearch=Naxos+Beethoven+Schnabel&sGeneralSearchSection=General&x=0&y=0&startfrom=1&sCatalogueNumber=&submitflag=true&sMSLSort=Filter2Date+DESC%2C+ProductView+DESC%2C+SaleView+DESC&bSortBy=ASC&serial=11081881668105365)

Each CD is $7.43 (US customers don't pay the VAT.)

Thanks, but I'll pass for now.  My interest in historical recordings is considerably lower than average, in part because of all the sound quality issues. Better a live dog than a dead lion may be the appropriate proverb.  This particular one caught my eye because it's priced at $17 and change.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on August 18, 2011, 02:19:49 PM
Quote from: George on August 18, 2011, 01:42:15 PM
Have you heard (or own) any of other transfers? The Naxos remain my favorite and can be ordered easily from MDT: click here. (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/search/searchresults.asp?sGeneralSearch=Naxos+Beethoven+Schnabel&sGeneralSearchSection=General&x=0&y=0&startfrom=1&sCatalogueNumber=&submitflag=true&sMSLSort=Filter2Date+DESC%2C+ProductView+DESC%2C+SaleView+DESC&bSortBy=ASC&serial=11081881668105365)

Each CD is $7.43 (US customers don't pay the VAT.)

Apparently these and many naxos releases can also be downloaded in cd quality (flac, apple lossless, etc) from qobuz.com
(I used this site to obtain a release I couldn't wait for and it's reliable)
e.g.
http://www.qobuz.com/telechargement-album-mp3/BEETHOVEN-Piano-Sonatas-Nos.-14-16-Schnabel-1933-1937-/Classique//Naxos/default/fiche_produit/id_produit-0636943175927.html?qref=sre_1_1

I still think the shinseido releases floating around the internet with japanese transfers seem to have more bass generally and a similar approach to hiss.
Based on samples, there are a few places where the naxos seem a little thin and even too equalized. The shinseido sound like a more direct quality rip from best sources (and we all know how assiduous the japanese are as collectors).
The exception to this is the concertos where the naxos releases are definitely superior in highs.
I will probably pull trigger on all the naxos releases some day, however.

Pearl of course leaves it up to you with tone knob, an option for stereo but not headphones.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 18, 2011, 02:28:40 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on August 18, 2011, 02:19:49 PM
I still think the shinseido releases floating around the internet with japanese transfers seem to have more bass generally and a similar approach to hiss.

Yes, initially, I liked them more, but ultimately I find the highs to sound veiled to me. The Naxos certainly aren't perfect, but they are the best match for my taste. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on August 18, 2011, 02:42:28 PM
Quote from: George on August 18, 2011, 02:28:40 PM
Yes, initially, I liked them more, but ultimately I find the highs to sound veiled to me. The Naxos certainly aren't perfect, but they are the best match for my taste.

I suppose I will have to get them then.
In any case, he is amazing.

SOo...

what do people think about Brendel's three sets (vox, Philips I and II) and some extra live sonatas (same deal with schubert - vox, analog, digital, live in snape etc)?

Some thoughts:
people really seem to hate how fussy he is in the last set while others think it's the deepest in late sonatas. The vox may be too perfunctory in the late pieces. Thus, Philips I is the compromise choice.

I would like to hear how people think his earlier sonatas compare with Kempff and Gulda's.
Premont's comments have made me appreciate Kempff quite a lot, especially for his taste and tone. And his Schubert performances are a nice antidote to more ruminative approaches.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 18, 2011, 02:51:35 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on August 18, 2011, 02:42:28 PM
Thus, Philips I is the compromise choice.

I would like to hear how people think his earlier sonatas compare with Kempff and Gulda's.



I don't know if I'd say it's a compromise choice so much as the best choice.  Brendel's LvB, both generally and in the early sonatas, is more detached and cool and analytical than Kempff's (or most cyles) and less intense, energetic, and focused than Gulda's Amadeo cycle.  Brendel's technique does not match Gulda's either, which is rather obvious in, say, 2/3. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on August 18, 2011, 02:54:40 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2011, 02:51:35 PM


I don't know if I'd say it's a compromise choice so much as the best choice.  Brendel's LvB, both generally and in the early sonatas, is more detached and cool and analytical than Kempff's (or most cyles) and less intense, energetic, and focused than Gulda's Amadeo cycle.  Brendel's technique does not match Gulda's either, which is rather obvious in, say, 2/3.

Thanks. Do you feel the same about Brendel's schubert and in Beethoven do you think he ever matches Kempff?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 18, 2011, 02:59:49 PM
As to the Schnabel,  I can recommend the Musical Concepts boxed set. Fidelity perfectly acceptable and price very reasonable at Amazon. There was a defect on the first disk in the first few sets that has been corrected. Everyone should have this classic set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 18, 2011, 03:00:53 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on August 18, 2011, 02:42:28 PM
I suppose I will have to get them then.

You'll also be supporting the only label that makes quality transfers of historical performance at budget prices. 

QuoteIn any case, he is amazing.

Indeed he is.  :)

Quotewhat do people think about Brendel's three sets (vox, Philips I and II) and some extra live sonatas (same deal with schubert - vox, analog, digital, live in snape etc)?

I've only heard the Vox and didn't like it. I like almost every other Beethoven pianist I have heard more than him.

Gulda I loved instantly and still love. Kempff I liked at first, then didn't like for awhile, then I revisited and he's really grown on me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 18, 2011, 03:07:50 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on August 18, 2011, 02:54:40 PMDo you feel the same about Brendel's schubert and in Beethoven do you think he ever matches Kempff?



He never quite matches Kempff, which is even harder in Schubert than in Beethoven.  That written, I find Brendel more compelling in Schubert than Beethoven.  He moves beyond cool to cold, which offers unique insights, and his D959 (studio or live) is among the best I've heard. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 18, 2011, 03:17:41 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2011, 03:07:50 PM
I find Brendel more compelling in Schubert than Beethoven.  He moves beyond cool to cold, which offers unique insights, and his D959 (studio or live) is among the best I've heard.

I agree.

Other than his 959, I find Haydn to be where Brendel really shines.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 18, 2011, 04:06:22 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51I3ArGQfPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

If any of you have this set, can you please PM me?

I have a friend who has the set, but his has two copies of CD 1, none of CD 2. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on August 18, 2011, 04:17:18 PM
Quote from: George on August 18, 2011, 03:17:41 PM
Other than his 959, I find Haydn to be where Brendel really shines.

We're on the same page. 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 18, 2011, 04:21:49 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 18, 2011, 04:17:18 PM
We're on the same page. 8)

Imagine that! And I have Tureck's Goldberg variations playing in the background too! (The 1988 VAI, not the DG)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 18, 2011, 06:06:04 PM
Quote from: George on August 18, 2011, 12:06:09 PM
Damn, didn't know it could have gotten worse than that.  :o

Nor did I. It is not only heavily filtered, but the sound of the piano is unstable, vibrating.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 19, 2011, 01:39:57 AM
Quote from: George on August 18, 2011, 04:06:22 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51I3ArGQfPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

If any of you have this set, can you please PM me?

I have a friend who has the set, but his has two copies of CD 1, none of CD 2.

Hello George

I don't have that set but I do have this which contains most of that and more.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LaPdLOleL._SS400_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XGjnAiAPL._SS400_.jpg)

Let me know if this is helpful
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 19, 2011, 02:21:20 AM
Quote from: Holden on August 19, 2011, 01:39:57 AM

I don't have that set but I do have this which contains most of that and more.


There is no overlapping at all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 19, 2011, 03:07:01 AM
Quote from: Holden on August 19, 2011, 01:39:57 AM
Hello George

I don't have that set but I do have this which contains most of that and more.

Let me know if this is helpful

Thanks Holden! As premont says, it appears that they don't have the same performances as the set I inquired about.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 19, 2011, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: George on August 19, 2011, 03:07:01 AM
Thanks Holden! As premont says, it appears that they don't have the same performances as the set I inquired about.

Yes, you're correct (too many after works drinkies on a Friday). This is actually good news if the Philips CD can be found as it would give us 19 of the 32 by Richter-Haaser.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 19, 2011, 01:54:54 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 19, 2011, 01:38:48 PM
Yes, you're correct (too many after works drinkies on a Friday). This is actually good news if the Philips CD can be found as it would give us 19 of the 32 by Richter-Haaser.

;D

So I take it that you enjoy his Beethoven? Is he one of your favorites?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 19, 2011, 02:10:55 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 19, 2011, 01:39:57 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LaPdLOleL._SS400_.jpg)



Hmm, most interesting, and only $24 at MDT and $18 at Amazon France.  Should I, I wonder?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 20, 2011, 12:03:45 PM
Quote from: George on August 19, 2011, 01:54:54 PM
;D

So I take it that you enjoy his Beethoven? Is he one of your favorites?

In certain of the sonatas he is one of my favourites, especially Op 2. I got the set specifically for this and his excellent G minor Fantasie Op 77 which I had owned in my LP days. I wasn't disappointed with the performances but there is a bit of tape 'wow' evident in places. HR-H performs LvB in a very straightforward manner and at the same time has some quite original ideas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 20, 2011, 05:56:40 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 20, 2011, 12:03:45 PMIn certain of the sonatas he is one of my favourites, especially Op 2.



Intriguing.  I ordered the 6 CD set, so I will soon here his playing.  I must confess, Op 2, Op 31, and the last three sonata, plus the last three concertos is almost a dream litmus test for LvB.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on August 21, 2011, 07:13:44 AM
Quote from: Holden on August 19, 2011, 01:38:48 PM
Yes, you're correct (too many after works drinkies on a Friday). This is actually good news if the Philips CD can be found as it would give us 19 of the 32 by Richter-Haaser.

I love the Philips -- op.101 especially-- but am ambivalent about most of those EMI efforts. Extremely understated Beethoven that emerges, as you hear a whole sonata, in all its glory.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Melvyn M. Sobel on September 16, 2011, 02:38:09 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 11:07:17 AM
It is a new recording, a live recording. I have ordered it already and expect to receive it witin a week or so.

Any word on this live Buchbinder set? I recall owning his complete traversal (#1) on LP and not being overly impressed. Is his 2nd complete approach any different? How about sound, etc.?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2011, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: Mel on September 16, 2011, 02:38:09 PM0Any word on this live Buchbinder set?



Yes. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18968.msg538896.html#msg538896)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2011, 06:13:50 PM
Hi Todd - just received the disc below w/ Penelope Crawford playing the last 3 sonatas on her fortepiano - have just done a single listening so far; the reviews have been rather raving - just wondering if you've had a chance yet to hear these performances?  Thanks - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51klgMNf3YL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2011, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2011, 06:13:50 PMjust wondering if you've had a chance yet to hear these performances?



At this point I have not.  I'm more a modern piano kinda guy, though as I run out of modern pianos I will invariably have to devote more time to HIP performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2011, 06:54:49 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2011, 06:24:19 PM
At this point I have not.  I'm more a modern piano kinda guy, though as I run out of modern pianos I will invariably have to devote more time to HIP performances.

Thanks Todd for your quick response - Crawford plays her restored 1835 Conrad Graf (Vienna) fortepiano which to my ears sounds quite modern; the recording is done well and the sound of the piano is up front w/ little extraneous noise from the instrument.

For those who may be interested in these works performed on a piano of the era, please review the attachment (from Fanfare, Sept-Oct 2011 issue).  Penelope Crawford is a long time faculty member at the University of Michigan, where I did my undergraduate & medical school education, so I must have some kind of affinity for her recordings?  Not sure if this will be a continual series but this first performance is enjoyable for those wanting a period instrument - looking forward to comments from others who have heard this disc - :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 09:41:02 AM
Interesting Kovacevich quote:

"I feel very claustrophobic with 'intellectual' approaches which don't have the physical strength. If you don't get that physical charge from the performance there's something lacking. Very few pianists today can bring this physical virtuoso thrill to what they're playing. It's out of fashion. A lot of today's fashionable ideas make it harder to get good Beethoven."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on October 03, 2011, 09:50:42 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 09:41:02 AM
Interesting Kovacevich quote:

"I feel very claustrophobic with 'intellectual' approaches which don't have the physical strength. If you don't get that physical charge from the performance there's something lacking. Very few pianists today can bring this physical virtuoso thrill to what they're playing. It's out of fashion. A lot of today's fashionable ideas make it harder to get good Beethoven."

Is there more available at the source of that quote?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 10:19:08 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 03, 2011, 09:50:42 AM
Is there more available at the source of that quote?

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201992/14/812233/A+RETURN+TO+THE+CLASSICS
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on October 03, 2011, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 10:19:08 AM
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201992/14/812233/A+RETURN+TO+THE+CLASSICS

Thank you.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 03, 2011, 11:26:57 AM
I'd bet quite a few pianists can bring a physical virtuoso thrill to what they play, but choose not to for a variety of reasons, some based on fashionable ideas and some not.  I wonder if Mr Kovacevich would revise his statement at all now, some twenty years later.  (I wonder if Alica Sara Ott will bring a bit of virtuoso thrill or flash to her playing, for instance.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 11:47:18 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 03, 2011, 11:26:57 AM
I'd bet quite a few pianists can bring a physical virtuoso thrill to what they play, but choose not to for a variety of reasons, some based on fashionable ideas and some not.  I wonder if Mr Kovacevich would revise his statement at all now, some twenty years later.  (I wonder if Alica Sara Ott will bring a bit of virtuoso thrill or flash to her playing, for instance.)

Part of the problem is between live and studio, also addressed in interview.

Given the EMI recordings, perhaps he'd say something similar, provided one has decent producers and engineers. It would be nice to see him do another set of sonata recordings for Onyx.

Another thing, many reports of Paul Lewis' playing describe him as being a more spontaneous player live.

Beethoven is tricky, because it's both introspective and bold, risk-taking, so there is no perfect recording environment really. Maybe Beethoven had the right idea when he played his pieces at a remove from the main salon area where his well-mannered audience sat.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 03, 2011, 12:00:46 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 11:47:18 AMPart of the problem is between live and studio, also addressed in interview.



Perhaps.  It's interesting for me to read his comments because when I heard Kovacevich live he was much different than on record.  He is more intense and virtuosic, and his tone much less appealing, on record than in person.  He was much better live, at least to my ears.  Of course, that was with D960 and some LvB Bagatelles.  The performance I heard was not being recorded, so one would think he would take more chances, but both of his recorded D960s seem more adventurous in some ways than what I heard.  Of course, I have to rely on memory when recalling the recital, whereas I can listen to either recording whenever I choose, so it's not a totally accurate/fair comparison.

I wouldn't mind another LvB cycle from him, though now I have to wonder if he'd be a little less intense as I have to assume age is starting to take a toll on his technique and stamina.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 12:19:43 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 03, 2011, 12:00:46 PM
I wouldn't mind another LvB cycle from him, though now I have to wonder if he'd be a little less intense as I have to assume age is starting to take a toll on his technique and stamina.

Reigning himself in could be a good thing.

He is so kind and encouraging in his mater class videos, unlike... Andras Schiff, for example.

As far as live vs studio, Pollini is another example, particularly as regards tone, which DG never really captured right.

Today you also have the problem that many "live" takes are not really so.

But I think it may be better in the long run for a pianist to either befriend an at home recording engineer (there are so many these days) or just cull from live recordings. And maintain rights to them, the latter also to avoid the Richter situation where you have tons of examples in and out of print.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 03, 2011, 12:36:11 PM
Early studio Kovacevich was great. Haven't been impressed with anything he has done since, concerning Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 03, 2011, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on October 03, 2011, 09:41:02 AM
Interesting Kovacevich quote:

"I feel very claustrophobic with 'intellectual' approaches which don't have the physical strength. If you don't get that physical charge from the performance there's something lacking. Very few pianists today can bring this physical virtuoso thrill to what they're playing. It's out of fashion. A lot of today's fashionable ideas make it harder to get good Beethoven."

It's no surprise to me that he mentions physical so many times in that quote. His EMI interpretations are exactly that, physical.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Orpheus on October 08, 2011, 12:20:58 AM
Any thoughts about this new box?

(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/8501901.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 08, 2011, 07:47:09 AM
Quote from: Orpheus on October 08, 2011, 12:20:58 AM
Any thoughts about this new box?

(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/8501901.jpg)



My only thought right now is: Finally!  Up until now her cycle has been available only on individual discs.  I do think I shall acquire this set, though I must say that I do not have the highest expectations based on the little I've heard of Ms Biret outside this repertoire, as well as the few comments I've read on her LvB.  I will do my best to approach the set with fresh ears, though
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on January 05, 2012, 12:20:23 AM
Can anybody confirm the release order of the first two of Kodama's Beethoven discs? PentaTone's site doesn't list dates, and Amazon and other sites offer contradictory information. So far at a guess it seems to go:

01 - No.21, 23, 26
02 - No.4, 8, 14
03 - No.16-18
04 - No.1-3
05 - No.9, 10, 19, 20, 24, 25
06 - No.5-7
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 05, 2012, 01:06:48 AM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on January 05, 2012, 12:20:23 AM
Can anybody confirm the release order of the first two of Kodama's Beethoven discs? PentaTone's site doesn't list dates, and Amazon and other sites offer contradictory information. So far at a guess it seems to go:

01 - No.21, 23, 26
02 - No.4, 8, 14
03 - No.16-18
04 - No.1-3
05 - No.9, 10, 19, 20, 24, 25
06 - No.5-7
Gramophone reviewed the first one in July 2004 and the second in February 2005 (and they refer to this as the second volume). So you appear to have the correct order. As to anything more concrete, I see what you mean. Perhaps someone has the actual discs to check if more specific dates are required. (Here is the link if you are interested: http://www.gramophone.net/Search/Results/beethoven+kodama (http://www.gramophone.net/Search/Results/beethoven+kodama))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on January 05, 2012, 04:15:36 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 05, 2012, 01:06:48 AM
Gramophone reviewed the first one in July 2004 and the second in February 2005 (and they refer to this as the second volume). So you appear to have the correct order. As to anything more concrete, I see what you mean. Perhaps someone has the actual discs to check if more specific dates are required. (Here is the link if you are interested: http://www.gramophone.net/Search/Results/beethoven+kodama (http://www.gramophone.net/Search/Results/beethoven+kodama))

Thanks! It's strange how the label seems to shy of announcing it as a numbered series - perhaps a marketing strategy (seeing "Vol.6" might make some people sigh at the idea of having to buy at least five more discs, or it will forever be an odd end).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on January 05, 2012, 05:07:48 AM
Regarding Kodama, people might wait for a possible box set containing all volumes. And there have been lots of sonata releases recently (Buchbinder, Lewis, Takácks, probably more)




Paavali Jumppanen's Beethoven sonata recordings (with Deutsche Grammophon) should probably be released in the near future:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kainuunsanomat.fi%2Fcs%2FSatellite%2FKulttuuri%2F1194646156375%2Fartikkeli%2Fpaavali%2Bjumppanen%2Blevyttaa%2Bkuhmossa.html

The translator is far from perfect but most of the stuff that matters should be understandable. I can clarify if necessary.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 05, 2012, 05:56:25 AM
What do folks think of Maria Grinberg's Beethoven Sonatas? I know she did a complete set in stereo that is up over at avaxhome.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2012, 06:05:12 AM
Belated thanks for the collective recommendation of the Kempff. I've not been through it methodically, but I very much enjoy whenever I dip into it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 05, 2012, 06:06:10 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 05, 2012, 06:05:12 AM
Belated thanks for the collective recommendation of the Kempff. I've not been through it methodically, but I very much enjoy whenever I dip into it.

Glad to hear that you are liking it, karl.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2012, 06:46:02 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 05, 2012, 05:07:48 AMPaavali Jumppanen's Beethoven sonata recordings (with Deutsche Grammophon) should probably be released in the near future:



Now that is a cycle I look forward to!  (The Guy cycle, too, really.)  Thanks for the heads up.



Quote from: George on January 05, 2012, 05:56:25 AMWhat do folks think of Maria Grinberg's Beethoven Sonatas? I know she did a complete set in stereo that is up over at avaxhome.


So-so to Meh. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15745.msg389124.html#msg389124)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 05, 2012, 06:48:19 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2012, 06:46:02 AM
So-so to Meh. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15745.msg389124.html#msg389124)

Thanks. Did you review the mono or stereo set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2012, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: George on January 05, 2012, 06:48:19 AMThanks. Did you review the mono or stereo set?



As far as I am aware, she only recorded one cycle. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on January 05, 2012, 06:56:12 AM
I have heard some from the Olympia set and they are methodical, rather good but nothing memorable. Not a keeper, in other words.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 08:35:49 AM
Quote from: Orpheus on October 08, 2011, 12:20:58 AM
Any thoughts about this new box?

(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/8501901.jpg)

After my first listen to her Chopin Nocturnes a few months ago, I still have not quite developed an impression of her yet ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2012, 08:57:12 AM
I think it's not quite right to say that Grinberg's Beethoven is methodical. I think it's full of original ideas in fact, at the micro- and macro- level. You  may think that her interpretations don't do what you should do with the music. You may not respond to how she plays. You may want better recorded sound or a less soviet piano. You may want a more romantic, or even a more spiritual, less objective, or less physical, style.  But that's a different matter.

I suggest that anyone curious just listens to a cd -- maybe Op 111, which is as radical interpretation of that marronnier as you'll ever find -- and sees whether he feels inclined to explore further. My own view is that she has important things to say with  some of the sonatas -- new things, and sometimes things you may be surprised  to hear.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 12, 2012, 09:40:58 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 06, 2011, 05:00:30 PM


The Cziffra [performance of the Waldstein]  is the reverse. The first movement, like the Argerich, doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It's fast but it's also like it's jogging on the spot.



In the studio Waldstein the problem disappears. It's interesting how much the studio is superior to the live. The studio is an outstanding performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on January 13, 2012, 11:24:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 12, 2012, 09:40:58 PM
In the studio Waldstein the problem disappears. It's interesting how much the studio is superior to the live. The studio is an outstanding performance.

This the live?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QhqhLFfTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Where would I find the studio?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 13, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: Holden on January 13, 2012, 11:24:12 AM
This the live?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QhqhLFfTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Where would I find the studio?

Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?ay6xcg6gn06lb  8)

It's under EMI 3.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2012, 01:06:50 PM
The Appassionata there is maybe even more impressive
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on January 14, 2012, 01:24:32 AM
Quote from: George on January 13, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?ay6xcg6gn06lb  8)

It's under EMI 3.

Is this part of the 40 CD set George?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 14, 2012, 02:34:05 AM
Quote from: Holden on January 14, 2012, 01:24:32 AM
Is this part of the 40 CD set George?

Yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 26, 2012, 09:38:58 PM
I do hope you tried some of the Grinberg, George. I'm getting interested again in her late Beethoven. The last three sonatas -- especially 110 and 111 -- are played without the slightest hint of comfort; without any suggestion of transcendence. The vision is unerringly tragic. As far as I know this is unique and, to my ears, is absolutely right for the times we live in. Her Beethoven is modern.

Op109 stands apart from the last two in being happy. There is an intense ecstatic joyfulness at the end which, once again, seems to make the performance stand out from others I know.

By the way, op 53 is not a high point of her big Beethoven cycle, but she had recorded it earlier and that one is much much better. Never on CD, it's been transferred by an amateur and it's been uploaded to musique ouverte. The whole thing is good, the last movement particularly so. 

Totally randomly, listening to that Op 53 made me cast around a  bit and I put Elly Ney's late one on again. If you don't know that one you are missing something very special.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 27, 2012, 03:40:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 26, 2012, 09:38:58 PM
Totally randomly, listening to that Op 53 made me cast around a  bit and I put Elly Ney's late one on again. If you don't know that one you are missing something very special.

Where is it available? I have three of her CDs and none of them have it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 27, 2012, 06:46:35 AM
Quote from: George on January 27, 2012, 03:40:21 AM
Where is it available? I have three of her CDs and none of them have it.

In the 12 CD box of post war records on Colesseum, which is worth having. It used to be very cheap, and used to be available from Russian pirate ships

(http://www.lucylearns.com/images/pictures-of-pirate-ships-cartoon-pirate-ship-pirate-ship-pictures-pirate-ship-images-3.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on January 29, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Has anyone here heard this?

[asin]B000005EBT[/asin]
Is it good? Has it ever been reissued in some form? It's totally unavailable on Amazon UK marketplace.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 29, 2012, 08:26:34 PM
Quote from: Lethevich on January 29, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Has anyone here heard this?

[asin]B000005EBT[/asin]
Is it good? Has it ever been reissued in some form? It's totally unavailable on Amazon UK marketplace.

Amazon USA has a copy, but when you click through to view it, it turns out the copy is a CD with Radu Lupu. Way to go, Amazon tagging.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on January 29, 2012, 08:37:23 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 29, 2012, 08:26:34 PM
Amazon USA has a copy, but when you click through to view it, it turns out the copy is a CD with Radu Lupu. Way to go, Amazon tagging.  ::)

;D I once bought a book from Amazon listed as being on Anselm Kiefer and ended up with a children's picture book of ocean liners in cutaway sections, due to another such conflict. It was a cool picture book, though, I can't grumble.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 29, 2012, 09:04:53 PM
Quote from: Lethevich on January 29, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Has anyone here heard this?

[asin]B000005EBT[/asin]
Is it good? Has it ever been reissued in some form? It's totally unavailable on Amazon UK marketplace.

Yes it's good. Sometimes more than good -- in the third movement of Op 53 for example.  Someone once put a copy of it on symphonyshare.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lethevich on January 30, 2012, 06:09:18 AM
Danke :) I will keep an eye out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2012, 07:42:10 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on January 29, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Has anyone here heard this?

[asin]B000005EBT[/asin]
Is it good? Has it ever been reissued in some form? It's totally unavailable on Amazon UK marketplace.

I got it for $3 in the bargain bin at a local shop back when such things existed. I am very fond of it, but fair warning; one must love the sound of a fortepiano to really enjoy this, as his instrument (an early Erard, IIRC) is not a reproduction, and (ala Beethoven) he makes it rattle from time to time. Definitely a hit in MY book. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on January 30, 2012, 08:01:47 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 30, 2012, 07:42:10 AM
I got it for $3 in the bargain bin at a local shop back when such things existed. I am very fond of it, but fair warning; one must love the sound of a fortepiano to really enjoy this, as his instrument (an early Erard, IIRC) is not a reproduction, and (ala Beethoven) he makes it rattle from time to time. Definitely a hit in MY book. :)

8)

It's 1806 Broadwood, and it sure does sound like 1806, and I also like it for that. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2012, 03:20:59 AM
Quote from: George on July 15, 2011, 07:36:15 AM
His [Kempff's]Op. 110 in the stereo set is wonderful.

I thought the mono was much more interesting than the stereo. As far as I can hear in the stereo he just tosses the music off, but in the mono it's not like that at all.

But maybe you don't hear that -- was it you who once minimised the differences? I can't remember. Anyway, if it was you, I don't hear it like that in op 110. And not in Op 2/2 neither.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 05, 2012, 04:03:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 05, 2012, 03:20:59 AM
I thought the mono was much more interesting than the stereo. As far as I can hear in the stereo he just tosses the music off, but in the mono it's not like that at all.

In the Op. 110 what I ma looking for is to be moved emotionally. The stereo definitely does this for me. I will revisit the mono soon.

EDIT - In the opening to the mono, he playing is beautiful, but soon after he rushes ahead. The movement continues in this way, with passages of beauty, followed but others that sound too rushed to me. I don't hear this in the stereo recording.   

EDIT 2 - The second movement is strange, with little impact given to those opening chords. It's also way too slow for me.

QuoteBut maybe you don't hear that -- was it you who once minimised the differences? I can't remember. Anyway, if it was you, I don't hear it like that in op 110. And not in Op 2/2 neither.

No, it wasn't me, I surely hear differences in the mono and stereo. Each set has a number of performances that best the one on the other set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 05, 2012, 09:55:25 AM
Quote from: George on February 05, 2012, 04:03:02 AM
In the Op. 110 what I ma looking for is to be moved emotionally. The stereo definitely does this for me. I will revisit the mono soon.

EDIT - In the opening to the mono, he playing is beautiful, but soon after he rushes ahead. The movement continues in this way, with passages of beauty, followed but others that sound too rushed to me. I don't hear this in the stereo recording.   
Bit confused here. Are you saying it should be slower? He is not really all that different in time than nearly anyone else I have (up to 30 seconds, but most are 10-20 seconds slower in that first movement). Although, Backhaus is about 30-40 seconds faster even than Kempff! Pollini is more or less similar in timing. That's just looking quickly at a few comparisons. Are you starting out with an ideal performance of how you think it should be?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on February 05, 2012, 01:25:35 PM
I bought it for the diabelli but op 111 is included and whilst i found the first movt a bit rushed,  Katchen's arrietta is sublime imo. very moving, and i'm pretty burned out on different versions of the late sonata's atm.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z561s9ELL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 05, 2012, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 05, 2012, 09:55:25 AM
Bit confused here. Are you saying it should be slower?

Sorry, I can't explain it any better than I did.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2012, 09:39:39 PM
Quote from: david-jw on February 05, 2012, 01:25:35 PM
I bought it for the diabelli but op 111 is included and whilst i found the first movt a bit rushed,  Katchen's arrietta is sublime imo. very moving, and i'm pretty burned out on different versions of the late sonata's atm.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z561s9ELL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've never heard the Op 111. The Diabellies are exciting.

Katchen's someone who I'd like to hear more of.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 06, 2012, 01:26:00 AM
I have this and the previous posts have prompted me to give the Arietta a good listen which is what I'm doing now. Arrau on DVD is my benchmark for this performance so it will be interesting to see how Katchen works this sublime piece of music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on February 15, 2012, 01:54:34 PM
Stewart Goodyear, whose recording of the late sonatas (28–32) earned some favorable reviews a couple of years ago — in part for his exceptionally dynamic and colorful Hammerklavier — now has a two-disc set of the "Middle Sonatas" on deck. It's due in mid-March on the Marquis label, and it encompasses sonatas numbers 13 to 18 (i.e. opus numbers 27, 28, and 31).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wYQF7HL5L._SS500_.jpg)

[asin]B003XQE0K4[/asin]

Title: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: Todd on March 11, 2012, 03:05:25 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RSqCRPPxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ojUiiVvsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


A couple more young pianists have joined the LvB piano sonata cycle fray.  Jonathan Biss has already recorded some Beethoven, which to my ears is quite good.  But in person he's not quite so captivating.  (Maybe I caught him on a bad night.)  Anyway, his cycle could be interesting.  HJ Lim is a fresh-faced Korean pianist who is starting her recording career with the New Testamant.  Ballsy.  How would it be?

First, to Biss.  He starts off with Op 10/1, and he opens with nice, swift, but supremely controlled ascending arpeggios. His approach is classical but energetic and most satisfying. The slow movement is fairly conventional, and meticulously played. The final movement is performed along similar lines. Op 22 is next, and not only does it sound light and quick, it sounds almost like Biss is having fun playing it. It just sounds jaunty. The whole work comes across this way. Op 26 is a bit heftier where it needs to be – in the funeral march, here nicely tense – but it is otherwise very much an energetic, young man's Beethoven.  The disc closes with a nicely energetic take on 81a.  It comes across more middle period than late period, and it lacks the emotional gravitas of better recordings, but it blends nicely with the rest of the disc and maintains a similar style. 

The only quibble I have with the disc has to do with sound. It's too close. It's not as bad as with Jean Muller's or Craig Sheppard's claustrophobically close recordings, but the microphones could have been placed back a few feet. I could have done without Biss' heavy breathing, an artifact of the close sound. But tone and dynamics are pretty darned good.

Now, to HJ Lim.  Well, um, she certainly likes to play fast.  Crazy fast.  Reckless, even.  And she really likes to fiddle with tempos all the time, without, it seems, rhyme or reason.  I started with disc 2.  Op 7 launches out of the gate faster than any version I have heard.  The dotted rhythm is crack-addled chimp fast.  She pushes and pulls the tempi around.  Hey, here's a passage – why not try an insane accelerando?  Why not, indeed?  The Op 14 sonatas are pressed way too hard.  Charm and lyricism are mostly AWOL.  Op 27/1 almost withstands the onslaught, but in addition to the relentless speed, there is some nearly as relentless key pounding here and there.  (The same thing showed up in Op 7, just not as negatively.)  Lim's tone is never harsh, but I can't say that subtlety is in evidence anywhere.  The Mondschein sounds odd.  Lim rushes the opening, eschews dark and hazy, going instead for terse and disjointed.  The second movement ain't too bad, and is pretty straightforward, but the closer alternates between nervous and twitchy and unrelenting.  Fast and loud, loud and fast, fast and faster, loud and fast.  It's nearly exhausting despite its brevity.

I was then ready for disc one.  Ms Lim starts off here recording career with nothing less than Op 106.  As I expected, she plays the opener fast, fast, fast – though not faster than Gieseking or Gulda at their fastest.  I was kind of looking for something more, though I knew I would not get it.  In this sonata, another trait of Ms Lim's playing started to become more bothersome: lack of clarity.  Some of the notes sort of just blur together.  Frequently.  But, did I mention it's fast?  The second movement is fast, too.  The slow movement is super fast.  At a shade under thirteen minutes, I do believe it is the fastest rendition of the slow movement I have heard.  But it doesn't flow.  Sometimes it sounds like a mass of notes being played almost at random.  It doesn't convey anything much for me.  And the constant tempo changes, ugh.  The final movement Largo is actually pretty good, but then Lim takes the fugue at a breathless pace and starts pounding out the notes on top of that.  Op 22 follows, and it is the most successful of the lot.  It's plenty quick and energetic, and Lim's tendencies do not detract too much.  That written, it's hardly a great performance.  Op 81a ends the first disc, and the whole thing sounds more like early LvB than the end of the middle period.  The slow movement lacks gravitas, but it does have some pounding.  The finale is an athletic exercise more than anything else.  There's a whole lot of Lim and not a whole lot of LvB here.  Throw in somewhat reverberant, slightly muddled sound, and this isn't exactly a prize.

So, Biss is pretty darned good.  His first disc is a solid opener.  I look forward to the next volume.  Lim's not good.  Her playing is certainly unique, no doubt of that.  It's really, really, really fast.  For those who like that, here's a neato start to a cycle.  I'm kind of thinking I want something more.
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: George on March 12, 2012, 05:59:22 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 11, 2012, 03:05:25 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ojUiiVvsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Lim's not good.  Her playing is certainly unique, no doubt of that.  It's really, really, really fast.  For those who like that, here's a neato start to a cycle.  I'm kind of thinking I want something more.

Like a centerfold?
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: Todd on March 12, 2012, 07:54:24 AM
Quote from: George on March 12, 2012, 05:59:22 AMLike a centerfold?



I'd settle for better music making.
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: springrite on March 12, 2012, 07:58:45 AM
Quote from: George on March 12, 2012, 05:59:22 AM
Like a centerfold?

She needs to spread it out a lot more.

(That IS a musical reference, of course)
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: Tyson on March 12, 2012, 08:58:12 PM
The chick is ballsy.  Funny.
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: Holden on March 14, 2012, 01:37:25 AM
I've already posted a brief review of the HJ Lim (but I can't find it)

In it I totally concur with Todd but I'd go a step further to say that this is some of the worst Beethoven playing I've ever heard. If you are going to play fast you have to have the technique - she doesn't! If you are going to play LvB you have to understand the music - she doesn't! I never thought I'd say this but I'd rather hear Lang Lang!
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: premont on March 14, 2012, 11:30:27 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 12, 2012, 07:58:45 AM
She needs to spread it out a lot more.

The legs apart, of course. ;)
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: Oldnslow on March 18, 2012, 11:59:49 AM
Todd or anyone---have you heard the Stewart Goodyear CD on Marquis of the late sonatas or his new release of the middle sonatas, including Op.31? I read that he just played all 32 sonatas in concert in ONE day---beginning in the morning and ending about midnight, with a couple of food breaks...hehehe.
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: val on March 19, 2012, 02:19:21 AM
I think I will try the Bliss recording you mentioned. His version of Schumann's Kreisleriana was very beautiful with some sublime moments (the 2nd piece in special).
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: Todd on March 19, 2012, 06:28:32 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on March 18, 2012, 11:59:49 AMTodd or anyone---have you heard the Stewart Goodyear CD on Marquis of the late sonatas or his new release of the middle sonatas, including Op.31?



Not yet, though I've read some other positive things.  My guess is that I will hear him at some point.  I'm not sold on the 32 in one day.  I don't know if even I could handle that much LvB in one day.
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: Oldnslow on March 19, 2012, 06:50:47 PM
I listened to Goodyears' middle sonata set the last couple of days (Op. 27/28/31) and was mightily impressed, both interpretively and technically. Very intense in places, yet he is able to bring out the inherent humor in many of these works. The recording quality, criticized by reviewers, didn't bother me much and the ear easily adjusts. I liked his playing so much I ordered the late sonata set.  Apparantly he plays the Hammerklavier at Beethoven's tempo markings, something Schnabel did but couldn't bring off technically. Maybe Goodyear can.  I assume he will record all the sonatas, which I look forward to.  I'd even attend a marathan concert of all 32, should he choose to bring it to the Pacific Northwest.
Title: Re: Jonathan Biss and HJ Lim play Beethoven
Post by: PaulSC on March 20, 2012, 09:19:40 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on March 19, 2012, 06:50:47 PM
I listened to Goodyears' middle sonata set the last couple of days (Op. 27/28/31) and was mightily impressed, both interpretively and technically. Very intense in places, yet he is able to bring out the inherent humor in many of these works. The recording quality, criticized by reviewers, didn't bother me much and the ear easily adjusts. I liked his playing so much I ordered the late sonata set.  Apparantly he plays the Hammerklavier at Beethoven's tempo markings, something Schnabel did but couldn't bring off technically. Maybe Goodyear can.  I assume he will record all the sonatas, which I look forward to.  I'd even attend a marathan concert of all 32, should he choose to bring it to the Pacific Northwest.
I'm a fan of the Goodyear's late sonatas, and I like what I hear in previews of the new set. It's on my wish list. In the earlier recording, I would only fault him for lacking a really convincing legato — sometimes passage work seems over articulated. But it's never unlistenable, just takes some getting used to...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on March 20, 2012, 01:08:59 PM
Best 111 I have ever heard (until the next one I listen to) - Novitskaya - What a tragedy she retired so early

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtsWnXjY3k4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0TYcZg1GsM
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on March 20, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Amazon gives this a release date of May 12, although I first saw at MDT and therefore assume it is already available in the UK, or will be available sooner than in the US.
[asin]B007CW2FCA[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on March 20, 2012, 10:28:47 PM
Yes, I just ordered the Arrau set from Presto at a very good price introductory price ($50), and it is available in early April. About time these famous performances became available again. I used to have the LP set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on March 21, 2012, 01:17:26 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 20, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Amazon gives this a release date of May 12, although I first saw at MDT and therefore assume it is already available in the UK, or will be available sooner than in the US.
[asin]B007CW2FCA[/asin]

So what vintage are these recordings? How do they compare with those on the EMI Icons box set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 05:22:27 AM
(http://s18.postimage.org/7dq4z8uh5/BEETHOVEN_Pn_Sn32_28_Pollini_LP.jpg)

Pollini's 1977 DG release of Op.111 #32 & Op.101 #28.   This was one of a series of deluxe
LP issues DG were doing for then-superstar Pollini.  The playing is immaculate, cannot over-
recommend this one.  Haven't heard the CD, but hopefully the engineers captured the great
sound that the LP masters have.  Gramophone Record Award 1977 - INSTRUMENTAL BEETHOVEN. PIANO SONATAS. Maurizio Pollini (piano). DG 2740 166 (three records, nas). Reviewed January 1978.
Piano Sonatas: No. 27 in E minor, Op. 90; No. 28 in A major, Op. 101; No. 29 in B flat major, Op. 106, "Hammerklavier"; No. 30 in E major, Op. 109; No. 31 in A flat major, Op. 110; No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111.

     from Gramophone  March 1978:

BEETHOVEN. Piano Sonatas: No. 28 In A major, C) Op. 101; No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111 (2530 870).
From 2740 166 (1/78).

But Pollini's is a marvellous disc, and as I indicated in my first review, he is given truthful and vivid recorded sound and the discs have impeccable surfaces. Collectors will find both records give profound musical satisfaction. ~R.L.

     from Gramophone:

Beethoven Awareness Month
New York radio station WQXR pays tribute to the composer

For example, Maurizio Pollini's intense and focused Op 111 was my clear first choice from the start.

     from Gramophone July 1990:
BEETHOVEN. LATE PIANO SONATAS. Maurizio Pollini (p1). DG ® CD 429 569/7020H (two discs, oas: 63 and 62 minutes: AAD). From 2740 166 (1/78).

This is precisely Pollini's greatest strength in his GRAMOPHONE Award-winning set. Not only can he stand up to the accumulated momentum, but he can also build on it so as to leave the impression of one huge exhalation of creative breath. Baren boim may probe even more deeply in the Hammerklavier slow movement, and his recording has a richness and translucency the earlier DG cannot match; but Pollini's controlled vehemence is without rival in the outer movements, and though he does not get right to the bottom of Op. 101's poetry, his far-sighted phrasing and paragraphing is again remarkable (hear the build-up to the finale recapitulation and resist it if you can!).

In the last three sonatas there are others who stop to peer deeper into some of the psychic chasms, but Pollini's mastery of integration and continuous growth, and his ability to hold potentially conflicting musical demands in balance, are again sources of wonder. All other things being equal, I would prefer a tempo scheme for the variations of Op. 111 closer to the letter of the score, but in terms of the qualitiesjust mentioned, who is Pollini's equal? Certainly not Ashkenazy or Goode, whose two-disc sets of all five late sonatas (for Decca and Nonesuch/WEA respectively) nevertheless offer rich rewards of their own. There are some small touches of pre-echo in Op. 111, but otherwise nothing to distract from the exalted quality of the music and the playing.
  ~D.J.F.

           from Gramophone March 1978:

BEETHOVEN. Piano Sonatas Nos. 28-32. Pollini. DG 3371 033 (three cassettes, nas, £13-50). Discs reviewed 1/78.

"Make no mistake, this is playing of the highest order of mastery", said RL in his disc review, and one need add little more except to agree that the Hammerklavier is "simply staggering". And the tapes are marvellous in their own right, offering some of the most natural 1621 piano tone I have yet heard on disc or tape. The richness of sonority is thrilling, the upper outline clean without being hard. Not to be missed. The Hannnerklavier is also released separately on 3300 869, Sonatas Nos. 28 and 32 on 3300 870; the coupling of Sonatas Nos. 30 and 31 has been available for some time (3300 645). The single cassettes cost k4. 50 each.   ~I.M.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 05:49:01 AM
(http://s13.postimage.org/9j9ewrndj/BEETH_Pn_Sn_30_31_Pollini_LP.jpg)

Another DG LP of the 1977 Gramophone Record Award set.  Again, cannot over-recommend it.

      from Gramophone  March 1976:

BEETHOVEN. Piano Sonatas: No. 30 in E major, Op. 109; No. 31 in A flat major, Op. 110. Maurizio PoIBM. DG 2530 645 (3.25).

I approached this disc with some trepidation. Pollini belongs to the same pianistic bloodgroup as Michelangeli, and supreme perfectionist as he is Michelangeli has always seemed to me miscast in Beethoven. So what a relief to play through both sonatas—without initially stopping to make comparisons—and to find myself much moved by their noble purity and truth as well as bowled over by the quality of the pianism.
But that said, let me add at once that Pollini's Beethoven is not the kind to make "strong men with whiskers brush away a silent tear" (to quote one of my favourite Vaughan Williams remarks). Anyone for whom the intensely introspective Arrau (on Philips) is the ideal could well find Pollini too objective. The amount of unused space on each side of the disc is proof of his preference for keeping things on the move instead of trying to wring the last drops of expression out of every detail. It was hardly surprising to find him a good deal brisker than Arrau in the Prestissimo of Op. 109 (Pollini's dotted crotchet is around 84 as against Arrau's 72). But it is suite extraordinary to compare the two players in the fourth variation of the finale. Arrau, seeking the 'sublime', lingers lovingly over every note (at about a quaver equals 84) while Pollini (at about a quaver equals 126) refuses to let sentiment impede the flow. Pollini's shaping of this movement as a whole is masterly, with a great sense of climax in the last variation before sinking back into the profound peace of the theme itself. unadorned, at the end.
The A flat Sonata brings such strong drama in the contrasts of the second movement (Allegro molto), such intimate pathos in the Arioso (albeit not lingered over) and such a great resurgence of strength in the fugues that it is misleading to describe the performance as 'Apollinian'. Yet how else to try and convey the almost classical discipline and purity of tone and style with which such wealth of feeling is expressed. Purity. That's the inescapable word, and it applies to the recorded tone no less than the playing.
    ~J.O.C.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 21, 2012, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 20, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Amazon gives this a release date of May 12, although I first saw at MDT and therefore assume it is already available in the UK, or will be available sooner than in the US.
[asin]B007CW2FCA[/asin]

Anyone know if this is a remaster of the Philips set? And why the concertos are not included?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 21, 2012, 06:33:29 AM
Quote from: George on March 21, 2012, 06:00:55 AM
Anyone know if this is a remaster of the Philips set? And why the concertos are not included?
Think so. Timings look to be nearly identical.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on March 21, 2012, 06:37:27 AM
Quote from: George on March 21, 2012, 06:00:55 AM
Anyone know if this is a remaster of the Philips set? And why the concertos are not included?

Given their usual procedures,  this is merely a re-issue of a previous mastering, and IIRC they've already issued a box in this series with all the concertos (ie, piano, violin, triple), although I'm blessed if I remember who the performers are, and this series seems to be planned with the idea of not having alternate performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2012, 06:37:40 AM
I'm guessing the Arrau cycle is a straight reissue of the 60s cycle.  Why no concertos, I don't know.  If this turns out to be the later, digital cycle, I'm all over it.

EDIT: HMV Japan lists it as the 1960s cycle, with a release data of 3/31/12.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on March 21, 2012, 06:41:41 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 21, 2012, 06:33:29 AM
Think so. Timings look to be nearly identical.

But is it remastered?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2012, 06:45:22 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 21, 2012, 06:41:41 AMBut is it remastered?



No indications that it is.  It's part of the budget Collector's series, so I'd bet it's not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 21, 2012, 06:54:26 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 20, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Amazon gives this a release date of May 12, although I first saw at MDT and therefore assume it is already available in the UK, or will be available sooner than in the US.
[asin]B007CW2FCA[/asin]

I have seen what I guess it's the same set (from the 60s) for several months on the Italian Amazon (I haven't revised another e-stores):

[asin]B005MF0ZNU[/asin]

http://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B005MF0ZNU/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d0_g15_i1?pf_rd_m=A11IL2PNWYJU7H&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0ADMP8ZXH0MGE4D5DPE0&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=214853547&pf_rd_i=426865031

The asking price is great, even adding shipping and handling costs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2012, 08:48:54 AM
The darned Japanese!  Besides cycles I already knew about and wanted to get - namely Shoko Sugitani, Kazune Shimizu, and Takahiro Sonoda's Evica cycle - looks like two new ones are available.  Ichiro Nodaira has a complete cycle and Diabelli out on 11 discs, and Yusuke Kikuchi's final installment comes out next month.  The big problem is price.  Importing from Japan is mighty expensive these days. 

And Mr Nodaira also has a Mozart cycle and WTC to consider.  Argh!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on March 21, 2012, 10:01:49 AM
I assume the new budget Arrau set is from the 60's, though I note it includes all the variations, which I thought were only done later for Phillips. Todd, I also did not know Arrau did a complete sonata cycle later for Phillips in addition to the 60's set. Is this true?. I only recall that he redid a few, including a Waldstein/109 CD from the 80's I think, along with the Diabellis.  Prior to this new release of the 60's set, they were only available in an expensive set which included the concertos (I think with Haitink) that has been long out of print and carries astronomical high prices on the used market, so this new budget reissue of the 60's set is most welcome, whether or not it is remastered (it might be if they are using the remasters already done for the pricey set).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 10:07:03 AM
           click image
(http://s13.postimage.org/qoubkp0yf/BEETH_Pn_Sn_26_29_Brendel_LP.jpg)

  Another excellent choice.  The No.26 recording supposedly is from February 1972, but the ç on the label says 1971.  Shrugs.
Brendel recorded three Beethoven cycles.  The Seventies cycle is the middle one and probably the best.

   from Gramophone Feb 1972

BEETHOVEN. Piano Sonatas: No. 24 in F sharp major, Op.78; No.29 in B flat major, Op. 106, "Hammerklavier".
Alfred Brendel. Philips 6500 139 (L2.35).

The immediate and over-riding advantage of this new Hammerklavier and Op.78 is the tone quality; the sound is round and warm and full of bloom in climaxes which previously were clangy. But anyone who put a lot of money into Brendel's first Beethoven cycle, not so long ago reissued on Turnabout, need not despair. In the eight (or so) intervening years, this artist's fundamental conception of the two works has not changed. The differences that I've so far been able to detect do not add up to major revaluations. If pressed to summarize them (very dangerous) I'd say that they smooth one or two rough edges. Mature wisdom, you might say, instead of immediate inflammability.
In the Hammerklavier I expected the Adagio to be substantially slower than before (like the finale in the new Op. 111). But here Mr Brendel offers something infinitely calmer and more spiritual without any drastic departure from his familiar (on the concert platform too) tempo for this movement—never as slow as some artists. This is a profoundly moving performance, with every detail perfectly related to the chosen speed. The fugal finale, on the other hand, is a bit faster than before, and a good deal more suave and fluent-sounding in flow. There is another difference in the trio of the Scherzo, here less excitable in dynamics—and without so urgently forceful a return to the recapitulated scherzo section. In sum, a very fine, thoughtful, reading from a searching keyboard 'philosopher'.
More than any other piano music I know, this sonata to me evokes a composer who had tapped some elemental source of power, driving him on from first note to last in a single, creative flood : and you have only to play the first few bars to realize which of these two artists is the more eruptively dramatic. But maybe other people have other views about Beethoven's state of mind in 1818 . . .
Needless to say Serkin plays with very deep feeling. But with his considerably faster tempo than Ashkenazy's or Brendel's, he never, to my mind, gets as far above the clouds into the purity of outer space as Ashkenazy or Brendel—and particularly Brendel, whose insight into this movement impresses me more every time I hear it ...
  ~J.0. C.

               from Gramophone April 1982

BEETHOVEN. Piano Sonatas—No. 26 in E flat major, op. 81 a, "Les adieux'; No. 29 in B flat major, op. 106, "Hammerklavier".
Alfred Brendel lpnol. Philips ® 6514 110: 7337 110. Item marked from 6768 004 (11/78).
t6500 139 (2/72).

I find comparable pleasure, too, in having a chance to listen in detail to Brendel's remarkable reading of the Hammerklat'ier Sonata which is also pertinently re-coupled with a performance of Les adieux which is wonderfully robust and penetrating, a revealingly apt preface to the Hammerkiavier itself. The absorbed use of tone colour, evident in slow movements and at the very end of movements on these records, informs the first movement of this performance of the Hammerkla pier. The tempo, though flexible, is a slowish one with very intense shaping of transitional figurations. Brendel seems especially concerned with structural and harmonic issues as a way towards the music's extraordinary sense of light and dark. Throughout the performance slow pulses, far-seeing but flexibly ordered, are deployed in a way familiar from some of Furtwangler's interpretations. The una corda playing in the great slow movement has a special visionary raptness, yet Brendel also has a keen sense of the music's varying stresses, its living drama. He brings Out with great perspicuity Beethoven's ability to marry an over-arching argument with a sub-text made up of absorbed acts of improvisation. The playing of the move ment's recapitulation seems to me especially fine, the high tessitura writing inflected with a special intensity, pain and detachment from pain, grief and joy, ambiguously commingled.
The recording of Les adieux is marginally fuller and more forward, but both admirably reproduce performances of outstanding interest.
  ~R.O.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2012, 10:12:26 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on March 21, 2012, 10:01:49 AMTodd, I also did not know Arrau did a complete sonata cycle later for Phillips in addition to the 60's set.



A reviewer at Amazon states that only 27/2 and 106 were not rerecorded, though I can't verify that.  The astronomical price has kept me from buying the set.  If/when it is available at a reasonable price, I will buy it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 10:51:39 AM
Yes, I have one record from his Philips set:

           click image
(http://s11.postimage.org/iwz6bd2v7/BEETH_Pn_Sn_17_21_Arrau_LP.jpg)

Back in the day, this was on Philips' discount label - which meant you only paid $9 instead of $15!!!
Imports were murder on the ol' wallet, but what could one do?  For the most part, DG and Philips sorta ruled on LP.
From 1967 and 1964.


       from Gramophone  April 1967

BEETHOVEN. PIANO SONATAS. No. 17 in D minor, Op. 31 No. 2.
Claudio Arrau (piano). Philips © AL3603 Q SAL3603 (12 in., 32s. 3d. plus 5s. 9d. PT).


Arrau's performance of the D minor is on a higher level altogether, despite an unusually relaxed tempo in the finale in which something of the movement's fierce concentration is lost.  All the dramatic contrasts are strongly brought out and the two semiquaver phrasing is impeccable. The Largo is unspoiled by mannerisms—no mistaking the soundless tramp of a mazsive 3/4 rhythm here! This is the kind of playing which one expects from an elder statesman of the keyboard.
The recording is adequate though a little close as to balance. Occasional miscalculations in pedalling are shown up: but Arrau can take this in his stride.
   ~J.B.

           from Gramophone  Dec 1965

BEETHOVEN. Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major, Op. 53, "Waldstein". Claudio Arrau (piano). Philips
AL3517: Q SAL3517 (12 in., 32s. 3d. plus 5s. 3d. P.T.).

The records of Beethoven sonatas Claudio Arrau made for Columbia are now all deleted, which is a pity since there were some fine ones. But he is now busy recording a lot of Beethoven for Philips. ... It has been said often enough that Arrau's studio recordings rarely capture the brilliance and compelling quality of his performances in the concert hall; and you can't get away from it, they don't. But even though this disc, like so many of the others, doesn't show him at his best, it does have sterling qualities of intelligence and sound musical purpose and there's much to enjoy. I liked it a good deal better than his recording of the Hammer/clacier sonata which I wrote about last March. His readings of the Pathétique and the Waldstein are notable primarily for basing themselves so firmly on exactly what Beethoven wrote: down to the last dynamic marking there's scarcely a thing that's missed. The gains from such strictness are many and the results especially interesting where grace notes—here played on the beat—and Beethoven's pedalling effects are concerned. The grace notes in the first movement of the Waldrtein, (i.e. the ones in bars 4 and 8 of the first subject) are not crushed—as they usually are—on to the main note they precede. Beethoven's notation of them suggests that indeed they shouldn't be: if he had wantedaecacciature he could have indicated this. Whether the little notes should in fact come exactly on the beat, as opposed to a fraction before it, is debatable. But here, with Arrau playing them on the beat, as tiny appoggiature, they certainly take on more character and an added harmonic significance—an interesting and, I think, a convincing way of treating them. Convincing too is Arrau's interpretation of Beethoven's pedalling markings in the Wald.utein's finale. He makes them contribute to the grandness of the sonority without ever letting them cloud the changes of harmony too much, and that's a difficult thing to calculate and bring off on the modern grand piano.
Calculation, yes: the pity is that there's quite so much of it on the record. In passages of slow music especially one frequently finds oneself standing back and admiring but at the same time quite uninvolved and unmoved. And that brings me back to the lack of communication in Arrau's studio recordings that I mentioned earlier. Admirable though these performances are in many ways, neither quite gets off the ground and neither has quite enough communicative spark to convey and generate in the listener a vivid musical experience.
    ~S.P.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 21, 2012, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 21, 2012, 06:45:22 AM


No indications that it is.  It's part of the budget Collector's series, so I'd bet it's not.

Sony and EMI have been remastering their budget boxes. I hope Decca doesn't do the same with their budget boxes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 11:54:08 AM
Robert Riefling was a student of Kempff.  He won the 1938 Queen Elizabeth Competition.  His career spanned over 6 decades.
He was one of the best Norwegian pianists ever.  He recorded the complete Beethoven cycle on Valois in the Sixties.
MHS licensed it - you could buy the box of 11 LP's or go for them individually.  I bought two of them, but one of them had a chip in it, so I sent it back.
Kept this one - great performance, great piano sound, but there is some tape hiss that is noticeable ... on CD (Simax) they probably dealt with this in some way?

           click image
(http://s16.postimage.org/ta0crl7at/BEETH_Pn_Sn_15_18_Riefling_LP.jpg)

Interestingly, the Nazi occupation forces in Norway arrested him twice in '42 and '43, but haven't read why.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2012, 11:56:55 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 11:54:08 AMon CD (Simax) they probably dealt with this in some way?



The Simax LvB CD is the only disc Riefling completed of a projected second cycle.  It was his last recording.  It is quite good.  As far as I can tell, the Valois cycle has never been partly or wholly reissued on CD.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 12:03:59 PM
(http://78.46.76.238/pix/20100718/330452799522.jpg)

(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20100618/190406417139.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on March 21, 2012, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on March 21, 2012, 05:49:01 AM
BEETHOVEN. Piano Sonatas: No. 30 in E major, Op. 109; No. 31 in A flat major, Op. 110. Maurizio PoIBM. DG 2530 645 (3.25).

As a youngster I thought I'd try the famous late Beethoven sonatas in that performance everybody was raving about, by Pollini. I hated it, and still do.

I only made my peace with this music many years later, when encountering the recordings by Solomon, and later others, like Fischer, Schnabel and Komen.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 21, 2012, 01:31:17 PM
Quote from: Que on March 21, 2012, 01:12:55 PM
As a youngster I thought I'd try the famous late Beethoven sonatas in that performance everybody was raving about, by Pollini. I hated it, and still do.

I only made my peace with this music many years later, when encountering the recordings by Solomon, and later others, like Fischer, Schnabel and Komen.

Q

Imagine how hard someone would have to try to muck up Op. 110. In my view it is the greatest of all the Beethoven sonatas. Serkin's 1960 is my current favorite.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on March 21, 2012, 11:11:54 PM
Quote from: George on March 21, 2012, 01:31:17 PM
Imagine how hard someone would have to try to muck up Op. 110. In my view it is the greatest of all the Beethoven sonatas. Serkin's 1960 is my current favorite.

I really should look into Serkin - you have been favouring them for years now.  :) I love his collaborations with the Busch Quartet. Oh, and let's not forget his LvB concertos with Kubelik (Orfeo) - epic stuff... Are those early Beethoven sonata recordings still availble? :)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on March 22, 2012, 12:15:30 AM
Quote from: Que on March 21, 2012, 01:12:55 PM
As a youngster I thought I'd try the famous late Beethoven sonatas in that performance everybody was raving about, by Pollini. I hated it, and still do.

Q

good Lord, WHY???  Those are MARVELOUS records!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on March 22, 2012, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on March 22, 2012, 12:15:30 AM
good Lord, WHY???  Those are MARVELOUS records!!

That's actually very hard to explain... ::) :)

It seems perfect, but I fail to connect to it emotionally - it seems complety artifical. I want to hear more than just the notes... Is Pollini an obsessive compulsive perfectionist? It sure sounds like it. It also seem that his menal frame of mind might be lightyears away from Beethoven's, as least that is how I perceive it. Where is the life, the passion? :-\

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 22, 2012, 12:42:54 AM
Quote from: Que on March 22, 2012, 12:25:52 AM
That's actually very hard to explain... ::) :)

It seems perfect, but I fail to connect to it emotionally - it seems complety artifical. I want to hear more than just the notes... Is Pollini an obsessive compulsive perfectionist? It sure sounds like it. It also seem that his menal frame of mind might be lightyears away from Beethoven's, as least that is how I perceive it. Where is the life, the passion? :-\

Q
I can understand this. Pollini doesn't do all of the bombast that some do and he does not overdo the angst (perhaps even underdoes it). He tends to take things a bit faster and with less stres on romantic aspects (which is what gives it a 'colder' feeling). At least, this is what I feel he does in no 30 (op 109). I think this what you are reacting to (at least in part). Have you heard Kovacevich? He goes the other way in terms of making a statement.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on March 22, 2012, 12:58:26 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 22, 2012, 12:42:54 AM
I can understand this. Pollini doesn't do all of the bombast that some do and he does not overdo the angst (perhaps even underdoes it). He tends to take things a bit faster and with less stres on romantic aspects (which is what gives it a 'colder' feeling). At least, this is what I feel he does in no 30 (op 109). I think this what you are reacting to (at least in part). Have you heard Kovacevich? He goes the other way in terms of making a statement.

I'm not looking for bombast, I assure you! :) None of the pianists I mentioned do bombast (Solomon being a good example).

Kovacevich.... I did admire his early LvB recordings and eagerly anticipated his complete cycle. When it finally arived, it dissapointed. I still could hear elements or moments of the old Kovacevich I admired, but it often seemed as if it didn't come naturally to him anymore, sounding forced.  I guess that's what you are referring to.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Henk on March 22, 2012, 01:03:15 AM
I don't have anything by Pollini. I avoided his performance of the Chopin's Nocturnes. The guy is too slick.

Henk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 22, 2012, 01:12:41 AM
Quote from: Que on March 22, 2012, 12:58:26 AM
I'm not looking for bombast, I assure you! :) None of the pianists I mentioned do bombast (Solomon being a good example).
Q
Solomon uses more rubato than Pollini and is more flexible with tempo (it seems to me anyway). But perhaps bombast is not the best word. Solomon makes great contrasts in dynamics, more so than Pollini I think. So when the climax comes, it is in some ways more effective. This is how I meant bombast in this context.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 22, 2012, 03:53:28 AM
Quote from: Que on March 21, 2012, 11:11:54 PM
I really should look into Serkin - you have been favouring them for years now.  :) I love his collaborations with the Busch Quartet. Oh, and let's not forget his LvB concertos with Kubelik (Orfeo) - epic stuff... Are those early Beethoven sonata recordings still availble? :)

Q

Some are, yes. I wrote a guide to Serkin's Beethoven awhile back that should be helpful:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10878.msg271144.html#msg271144
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: UberB on March 22, 2012, 06:11:36 AM
I am a big fan of Beethoven's piano sonatas and have listened to many recordings of these works. In my opinion no one comes close to the live recordings of Richter and Gilels in these works. Gilels' studio DG set contains some very fine performances (op. 53, op. 101 and many of the early sonatas that he never had a chance to record live) but both pianists were entirely different beasts when playing live. For any fans of the New Testament of piano music, you owe it to yourself to hear these recordings:

Richter in Leipzig for op. 109, 110, 111.

Richter's 1975 Aldeburgh on BBC legends contains my favorite op. 2 no. 3 and op. 106.

Richter's Prague recordings for op. 10 no. 3, op. 26, op. 31 no. 2 and op. 31 no. 3.

Richter's recording of op. 101 on Brilliant Classics

Richter's op. 57 on Melodiya

Gilels' op. 81a and op. 90 on Brilliant Classics

For a complete set I would recommend Annie Fischer. For complete sets in good sound...none. I have the highest demands for this music :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PM
Goodness me, 60 pages worth...

The only complete set I have is Kovacevich.  Very exciting at times, but... is it just me, or is he sometimes just pressing TOO hard?  I like a lot of his work, but in certain places I want him to relax more.

The one I noticed recently was the slow movement of op.7, which I may have biases about because it's something I've played myself.  And Kovacevich just doesn't seem to let the silences hang in the air the way they should.  The other recording of that one I have is Jeno Jando on Naxos, and I like it much better.

No one set is always going to work, but I suppose I'm asking, who else might be a good choice for those occasions when I think Kovacevich has taken his intense approach too far?  I don't want laid-back, it's just that sometimes I don't want totally manic!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 24, 2012, 10:19:40 PM
Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PM
Goodness me, 60 pages worth...

The only complete set I have is Kovacevich.  Very exciting at times, but... is it just me, or is he sometimes just pressing TOO hard?  I like a lot of his work, but in certain places I want him to relax more.

The one I noticed recently was the slow movement of op.7, which I may have biases about because it's something I've played myself.  And Kovacevich just doesn't seem to let the silences hang in the air the way they should.  The other recording of that one I have is Jeno Jando on Naxos, and I like it much better.

No one set is always going to work, but I suppose I'm asking, who else might be a good choice for those occasions when I think Kovacevich has taken his intense approach too far?  I don't want laid-back, it's just that sometimes I don't want totally manic!

Schnabel
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 24, 2012, 11:48:17 PM
Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PM
Goodness me, 60 pages worth...

The only complete set I have is Kovacevich.  Very exciting at times, but... is it just me, or is he sometimes just pressing TOO hard?  I like a lot of his work, but in certain places I want him to relax more.

The one I noticed recently was the slow movement of op.7, which I may have biases about because it's something I've played myself.  And Kovacevich just doesn't seem to let the silences hang in the air the way they should.  The other recording of that one I have is Jeno Jando on Naxos, and I like it much better.

No one set is always going to work, but I suppose I'm asking, who else might be a good choice for those occasions when I think Kovacevich has taken his intense approach too far?  I don't want laid-back, it's just that sometimes I don't want totally manic!
Gilels is the one I have targeted next. Kempff might be a good fit based on what you wrote. I find the newly boxed Arrau an interesting choice too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on March 25, 2012, 12:08:17 AM
Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PM
Goodness me, 60 pages worth...

The only complete set I have is Kovacevich.  Very exciting at times, but... is it just me, or is he sometimes just pressing TOO hard?  I like a lot of his work, but in certain places I want him to relax more.

No, it's not just you! :)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on March 25, 2012, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PM
Goodness me, 60 pages worth...

The only complete set I have is Kovacevich.  Very exciting at times, but... is it just me, or is he sometimes just pressing TOO hard?  I like a lot of his work, but in certain places I want him to relax more.


I think it is just sometimes, not generally. And there are other and well-thought-of pianists, who do similar things, e.g. Schnabel, who sometimes presses beyond his own ability in fast movements.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 25, 2012, 08:17:23 AM
Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PMis it just me, or is he sometimes just pressing TOO hard?



No, it's not just you.  Kovacevich pushes too hard quite a bit, especially in the earlier sonatas.



Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PMNo one set is always going to work, but I suppose I'm asking, who else might be a good choice for those occasions when I think Kovacevich has taken his intense approach too far?  I don't want laid-back, it's just that sometimes I don't want totally manic!


There are many.  Kempff, Takacs, Heidsieck, Brendel, Lortie, Lucchesini, O'Conor, for instance.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on March 25, 2012, 06:07:40 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone!  I might take a couple of years to report back.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on March 26, 2012, 03:25:24 AM
yes +1 on brendel- I find his early 1990's digital set to be a good antidote to the more excitable interpreters-
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on March 26, 2012, 10:14:35 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 25, 2012, 08:17:23 AM
There are many.  Kempff, Takacs, Heidsieck, Brendel, Lortie, Lucchesini, O'Conor, for instance.

Happy to see the mention of John O'Conor's set.  It does not often get included in a list of recommendations. 

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 26, 2012, 05:24:17 PM
It appears that someone has put up all 5 (long OOP) volumes of Pearl's issue of Schnabel's recordings of the 32 sonatas and variations, etc over at demonoid. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on March 26, 2012, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Philippe de Vitry on March 26, 2012, 10:14:35 AM
Happy to see the mention of John O'Conor's set.  It does not often get included in a list of recommendations. 

:)

O'Conor's Beethoven discs were my introduction to the composer's piano sonatas, so I have a soft spot for them.  I don't listen much these days to Beethoven's music, but when I go for the solo works I tend to play Brendel, Richter or Russell Sherman.  I should give my O'Conor discs a spin to see how they've held up.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2012, 03:48:16 AM
Interested to hear your thoughts, Don. We heard O'Conor play the LvB Fourth Concerto live here, with the "Benharmonic."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2012, 09:49:15 AM
O'Connor was a pianist who played Beethoven  sonatas on some of the Joyce  Hatto CDs. I played some of them quite recently because I was interested in the choices that Barrington-Coup made. And also because I was interested in non-heroic, relatively restrained approaches to Beethoven, especially middle period sonatas.

Many of Barrington-Coup's choices were very astute, but maybe not in Beethoven, Bach or Scarlatti. I didn't find many insights in O'Conner's Beethoven though I selected fairly randomly -- what I heard didn't make me feel inclined to listen systematically. That may well have been a reflection of my mood at the time of course.  I'd be very interested to hear if anyone thinks there's anything special there that I may have missed.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bulldog on March 27, 2012, 09:52:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 27, 2012, 09:49:15 AM
O'Connor was a pianist who played sonatas on some of the Joyce  Hatto CDs. I played some of them quite recently because I was interested in the choices that Barrington-Coup made. And also because I was interested in non-heroic, relatively restrained approaches to Beethoven, especially middle period sonatas.

Many of Barrington-Coup's choices were very astute, but maybe not in Beethoven, Bach or Scarlatti. I didn't find many insights in O'Conner's Beethoven though I selected fairly randomly -- what I heard didn't make me feel inclined to listen systematically. But I'd be very interested to hear if anyone thinks there's anything special there that I may have missed.

Last night I listened to a few of the O'Conner/Beethoven discs.  Can't say there is anything special going on, but I still find the performances enjoyable; I also like the soundstage.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on March 31, 2012, 12:27:52 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CHAN10720-3.jpg)

Initial 3 CD set in a projected complete series. Nice price too over at mdt's May releases.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 01, 2012, 04:03:17 AM
Looks like someone has finally put together all the Hungerford discs in one small set...
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5065001863387.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 02, 2012, 06:37:41 AM
Quote from: The new erato on March 31, 2012, 12:27:52 AM(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CHAN10720-3.jpg)



I am most interested in this cycle.  Then I can see which modern day Frenchie owns LvB for that land of many cheeses: Guy or Bavouzet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on April 02, 2012, 06:51:22 AM
Têtes-de-fromage!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on April 18, 2012, 06:18:58 AM
Three of Artur Schnabel's volumes of Beethoven Sonatas recorded for the Society of the same name are already on my website. These volumes contain   Sonatas 4 and 16;   9, 13 and 30;   2, 4 and 16. They are now joined by Volume 1 which has three two-movement sonatas. First,  the charming, elegant and witty Sonata  No. 24 in F sharp  with its second movement demanding brilliant technique. Then comes the centrepiece of the three,  Opus 111 in C minor, Sonata no. 32. Those of you who think that a degree of hiss adds to the aura of historical realism will be disappointed. On the other hand  you will at least be able to hear the very very quiet notes in the final variation. I love the moment toward the end of the first movement where after a high G we have a few bars in C major. Thirdly: Sonata 27 in E minor which, in spite of the passionate moments in the first movement, seems to me to be an elegiac composition overall. Somewhat surprisingly for a very physical player, Schnabel holds back on two strong semitone clashes in the first movement. After a rising octave minor scale of 5 notes in the left hand (think Grieg-Hall of the Mountain King) the right hand chord has a G clashing with the F sharp as well as a B ( this is bar 68). You can hardly hear the G at all. Similarly in the recapitulation.   I hope that those averse to restoration will consider a listen: to my mind there is as much atmosphere, sparkle and immediacy as you could wish for in this upload. Connect your lap-top to your sound-system (head-phones do not do justice to the pianist or the recording engineers ) and have this great pianist give you a recital in your own home nearly 80 years on!!! 

www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 18, 2012, 07:13:12 AM
Quote from: early grey on April 18, 2012, 06:18:58 AM
Three of Artur Schnabel's volumes of Beethoven Sonatas recorded for the Society of the same name are already on my website. These volumes contain   Sonatas 4 and 16;   9, 13 and 30;   2, 4 and 16. They are now joined by Volume 1 which has three two-movement sonatas. First,  the charming, elegant and witty Sonata  No. 24 in F sharp  with its second movement demanding brilliant technique. Then comes the centrepiece of the three,  Opus 111 in C minor, Sonata no. 32. Those of you who think that a degree of hiss adds to the aura of historical realism will be disappointed. On the other hand  you will at least be able to hear the very very quiet notes in the final variation. I love the moment toward the end of the first movement where after a high G we have a few bars in C major. Thirdly: Sonata 27 in E minor which, in spite of the passionate moments in the first movement, seems to me to be an elegiac composition overall. Somewhat surprisingly for a very physical player, Schnabel holds back on two strong semitone clashes in the first movement. After a rising octave minor scale of 5 notes in the left hand (think Grieg-Hall of the Mountain King) the right hand chord has a G clashing with the F sharp as well as a B ( this is bar 68). You can hardly hear the G at all. Similarly in the recapitulation.   I hope that those averse to restoration will consider a listen: to my mind there is as much atmosphere, sparkle and immediacy as you could wish for in this upload. Connect your lap-top to your sound-system (head-phones do not do justice to the pianist or the recording engineers ) and have this great pianist give you a recital in your own home nearly 80 years on!!! 

www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk

Thank you.

What would be really valuable is a transfer of  Schnabel's recording of the first Mendelssohn trio with Szigeti, and Fournier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 19, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510i4GVOqzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



One of the newer complete cycles on the block, Jean Muller's live cycle, taken from concerts from 2007-2009, almost escaped my notice.  Almost.  Now, I admit I knew and know next to nothing about Mr Muller beyond what's on the web – a Luxembourgian born in 1979 who has taken lessons from Gerhard Oppitz, among others – but that really doesn't matter.  I really only wanted to know how his Beethoven sounded.

So-so, as it turns out.  The set is plagued by two negatives throughout.  First is the suffocatingly close sound.  The microphones appear to have been suspended from the lid.  It's as bad or worse than Craig Sheppard's cycle.  Actually, make that worse, because in addition to no sense of space, and compromised dynamics, the recordings are also bass-shy.  One must conclude that this is largely how Mr Muller wanted the set to sound as he took the unusual step of mastering the set himself.  Second, these are true concert recordings, and they have the slips to prove it.  Absolute note perfection is hardly essential to a successful LvB cycle, but this one has more slips than most, and when compared to the awesomeness of Francois Frederic Guy's recent live recordings, it shows that nimbler pianists are out there recording the same stuff.

I don't want to be all negative though.  Something else runs through the entire cycle as well: a high level of energy.  It sounds as though Muller was feeding off the audience, because in quicker, more energetic pieces he really does quite well.  And on occasion – like Op 54 – he delivers both high energy and a powerful, personal interpretation.  (It helps that Op 54 sounds better than average; the piano sounds as though it is one's listening room.)  Slower, more contemplative passages don't benefit as much, and as might be deduced from what I've written so far, the late sonatas are not the last word in introspection, sophistication, insight, spirituality, etc.  This cycle is best in the earlier works, and higher energy middle works, like Op 53.

Overall, I cannot say that this is a particularly distinguished cycle.  The established pianists are not challenged, and the more accomplished pianists of today (Lucchesini and Guy, say) offer more.  So a cycle that is fine to listen to once or maybe twice, and perhaps as background music, but not a top-flight cycle. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 08, 2012, 12:04:24 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61skphXq6yL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)    (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GrZcCTyUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Looks like another young, or at least young-ish, pianist is recording the New Testament.  In rather stark contrast to HJ Lim's first volume, Stewart Goodyear's cycle is off to a promising start.

First, I'll dispense with some unpleasantness.  The sound is only mediocre for a modern recording.  It's clear enough, but it's metallic and colorless.  Perhaps this truly reflects Goodyear's sound in person, but I have my doubts.

That aside, Mr Goodyear is quite the ivory tickler.  Like Ms Lim, he favors fast tempi.  Unlike Ms Lim, he knows what to do with them.  No silly accelerations or decelerations here, there, and everywhere.  Goodyear plays in a relatively conventional fashion, just sped up.  At times, his pianistic mastery is awesome.  The opening of the Hammerklavier is one of the fastest on record, but unlike, say, Schnabel or Gieseking, he displays absolute command; there's nary a hint of sloppiness.  He's closer in approach to Gulda, but Goodyear's playing here has a sense of ease that even Gulda cannot match.  The same holds true for the concluding movement.  It is magnificent in almost every respect.  Another prime example is how Goodyear plays the Allegro section of the first movement of Op 27/1.  It sounds more like an insanely fast and supremely controlled Prestissimo.  Too fast?  Maybe.  Then again, maybe not.  (Think Pollini's playing in Stravinsky's Three Movements from Petrushka, and you'll have an idea how it sounds.)  This commanding technique is evident in all four discs so far released.

Throughout the set, there's gobs o' energy and drive, and an intensity that seems just about right.  He never pushes things quite as far as Gulda or Annie Fischer, say, but this is no wimpy Beethoven.  That written, I cannot say this is tip-top shelf LvB playing.  The limits to Goodyear's approach are most evident in the slow movements, the more contemplative portions of the last three sonatas, and, most tellingly for me, in the Big Three of Op 31.  Don't get me wrong, he plays everything well, but with Op 31, I want more than just sturm und drang in 31/2.  31/1 is too serious.  Same with 31/3.  While it's true that Gulda hardly comes off as light and funny, the great Austrian's approach is more, well, devout, if you will.  I suppose it's somewhat telling that I'm comparing Mr Goodyear more to my established favorites than lesser pianists.  His playing is strong, individual enough to stand out, and serious enough to warrant a complete cycle.

So, I look forward to the rest of the cycle.  It could very well turn out to be one heck of a fine, modern cycle.  I'll say that among modern, not-too-old pianists, Francois Frederic Guy and Andrea Lucchesini still set the standard for me, but Goodyear is not too far behind.  (I can't wait to hear how Jean Efflam Bavouzet and Paavali Jumppanen play in their upcoming cycles.)  There's plenty of good Elveebee still to be had.  One need not listen only to the old hands.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: albedo on May 09, 2012, 01:57:21 AM
good post


i am making my way through jando's cycle, and was just wondering  who was taking a more recent stab

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: not edward on May 09, 2012, 05:22:50 AM
Goodyear's playing all 32 sonatas in one day (!) here in Toronto next month. I'll admit I'm having trouble persuading myself this is a good idea.

http://www.luminato.com/events/goodyear/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Shrunk on May 09, 2012, 06:28:25 AM
Quote from: edward on May 09, 2012, 05:22:50 AM
Goodyear's playing all 32 sonatas in one day (!) here in Toronto next month. I'll admit I'm having trouble persuading myself this is a good idea.

http://www.luminato.com/events/goodyear/

Not only playing them on a single day, but in chronological order.  Never mind the demands on the stamina of the performer.  It's a lot to ask the listener to give his attention to all of the late sonatas in uninterrupted succession.  Still, interesting idea.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 11, 2012, 07:06:28 PM
Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:32:24 PM
Goodness me, 60 pages worth...

The only complete set I have is Kovacevich.  Very exciting at times, but... is it just me, or is he sometimes just pressing TOO hard?  I like a lot of his work, but in certain places I want him to relax more.

The one I noticed recently was the slow movement of op.7, which I may have biases about because it's something I've played myself.  And Kovacevich just doesn't seem to let the silences hang in the air the way they should.  The other recording of that one I have is Jeno Jando on Naxos, and I like it much better.

No one set is always going to work, but I suppose I'm asking, who else might be a good choice for those occasions when I think Kovacevich has taken his intense approach too far?  I don't want laid-back, it's just that sometimes I don't want totally manic!

Did Kovacevich ever record the Complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas?  I thought his set on Philips is incomplete ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 11, 2012, 07:17:09 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 11, 2012, 07:06:28 PM
Did Kovacevich ever record the Complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas?  I thought his set on Philips is incomplete ...

It is and he did (on EMI), but for my money the Philips stuff is better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 11, 2012, 07:18:29 PM
Quote from: George on May 11, 2012, 07:17:09 PM
It is and he did (on EMI), but for my money the Philips stuff is better.

I only have his set on Philips, which generally has better SQ ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on May 11, 2012, 07:32:16 PM
There's this budget trio available for less than $10 US including s/h on Amazon MP:
[asin]B001BJ84B6[/asin]
there's also a budget double CD, but everything on the double CD is in the three CD set, and the double is only about half a dollar cheaper on Amazon MP. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 11, 2012, 07:34:51 PM
Oh lordy. I just started listening to Francois-Frederic Guy on NML. This man is good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on May 11, 2012, 08:01:27 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 11, 2012, 07:06:28 PM
Did Kovacevich ever record the Complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas?  I thought his set on Philips is incomplete ...
Yes, and his complete set on EMI is one of the very finest.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 12, 2012, 03:32:32 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 11, 2012, 07:34:51 PMOh lordy. I just started listening to Francois-Frederic Guy on NML. This man is good.



Yes, yes he is.  The second volume is released on physical media on June 12th in the US.  I will be buying it on June 12th.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 21, 2012, 10:50:37 AM
This review (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/arts/music/h-j-lim-performs-piano-sonatas-at-le-poisson-rouge.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper) in the NYT of HJ Lim's performance of the Beethoven sonatas No. 29 & 30 contains some interesting information concerning her interpretative approach to these works:

QuoteAn idiosyncratic player with plenty of original ideas and the technique to carry them out, Ms. Lim has devoted considerable time to studying not only the works themselves but also Beethoven biographies and letters and other historical materials. For her EMI recording (to be released exclusively on iTunes), she has written her own extensive notes, grouping the sonatas into eight unconventional headings like "Aspects of an Inflexible Personality" (Op. 2, Nos. 1, 2 and 3) and "Extremes in Collision" (Op. 10, Nos. 1, 2 and 3).

During a postconcert discussion with the composer Daniel Felsenfeld, Ms. Lim — an engaging speaker whose French-accented English reflects her years in France, where she moved without her family at 12 to study — spoke about her aim of attaining the right balance between composer and interpreter. "Mutual understanding and empathy," she added, are essential when performing these sonatas.

Ms. Lim has spoken of Beethoven's "craziness," and she emphasized the unsettled elements of the sonatas here, like the intense rolling chords interspersed with the gentle melody of the opening of Opus 109 and the wild fugue of the "Hammerklavier."

In 2010 she performed all 32 sonatas over the course of eight days in Paris and, as the review indicates, will release a recording of the complete set this year, in what would appear NOT to be a cursory reading of the works.  I am usually skeptical of compete recordings of the sonatas, but Ms Kim seems to have given considerable thought to how each work fits into her classification scheme and creates some interest for me to hear what she's done.

It is too bad that the complete set is being released exclusively through iTunes - not only because of the notes which she has written and which would I would prefer to have in a booklet, but because iTunes is my  least preferable source for buying music.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2012, 12:10:15 PM
Quote from: Arnold on May 21, 2012, 10:50:37 AMIt is too bad that the complete set is being released exclusively through iTunes


No it's not.  My set shipped today from Amazon UK.  It cost me $30 total.  Ms Lim's first volume was decidedly crappy, and I do not have high expectations for the rest of the cycle, but I must hear it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wJZ%2B1kg%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 21, 2012, 12:17:53 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 21, 2012, 12:10:15 PM

No it's not.  My set shipped today from Amazon UK.  It cost me $30 total.  Ms Lim's first volume was decidedly crappy, and I do not have high expectations for the rest of the cycle, but I must hear it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wJZ%2B1kg%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Good news that it is available beyond iTunes, but it is not good to hear that you think her first set was "crappy".  If the interview is an accurate indication of how much thought she put into her interpretive decisions, it these are not careless performances.

At that price, I'm probably going to bite.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2012, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: Arnold on May 21, 2012, 12:17:53 PMIf the interview is an accurate indication of how much thought she put into her interpretive decisions, it these are not careless performances.



I have no doubt Ms Lim put a lot of thought into her interpretations.  I do not like her interpretations thus far.  It also seems to me that she may not have the technique to deliver on all her ideas.  She loves to play fast, but clarity suffers.  Compared to Stewart Goodyear, who also likes to play fast, she sounds labored, cloudy, and imprecise.  Perhaps that's part of her interpretation, along with pointless changes in tempi.

Price has gone up about 10 quid since I ordered in April.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2012, 12:47:44 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 21, 2012, 12:10:15 PM
No it's not.  My set shipped today from Amazon UK.

Mine shipped on the 19th. I expect it tomorrow.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2012, 12:56:32 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2012, 12:47:44 PMMine shipped on the 19th. I expect it tomorrow.



Hrumph!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on May 21, 2012, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 21, 2012, 12:10:15 PM

Ms Lim's first volume was decidedly crappy, and I do not have high expectations for the rest of the cycle, but I must hear it.



Only a true and dedicated collector could say that. 

I have the two volumes of Guy in my shopping cart at Arkiv for order this week.

FWIW, I've also seen a DVD at the local b&m store of Guy playing (I think) three LvB sonatas in concert.  Going by the picture on the cover, it's a very young Guy, in some sort of outdoor venue.  I had already decided to get the CD recordings,  so I didn't get it, but a true and dedicated collector might.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 21, 2012, 06:33:39 PM
Even though I'm not a fan of iTunes, I may get these performances from there since they are selling the entire set for $9.99. 

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2012, 07:05:33 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2012, 05:49:47 PM
I have the two volumes of Guy in my shopping cart at Arkiv for order this week.

I've heard Guy do No 12 (Op 26) and Op 49 No 1 and on the basis of those alone I'd buy the two full volumes if I had some more cash and storage space. Really good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2012, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2012, 05:49:47 PMI have the two volumes of Guy in my shopping cart at Arkiv for order this week.


I've got the FFG second volume carted, as well as Bavouzet's first volume.  Next up, probably, will be Yusuke Kikuchi.  Anyone else notice a dearth of LvB piano sonata recordings to select from these days?



Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2012, 05:49:47 PM...but a true and dedicated collector might.  Just sayin'.


Hmmm . . .



On a related note, Irina Mejoueva's cycle has been issued in complete form in Japan.

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/50/4/6/204.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2012, 01:43:06 AM
HJ Lim's cycle arrived this morning: in a cardboard box, four jewel cases each with its own booklet:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/beethovenlimvol1.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/beethovenlimvol2.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/beethovenlimvol3.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/beethovenlimvol4.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 22, 2012, 01:45:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2012, 01:43:06 AM
HJ Lim's cycle arrived this morning: in a cardboard box, four jewel cases each with its own booklet:

Sarge

Some subtitles, those are.

May I ask why you went for that cycle?? (Please no obvious answers. I have eyes, too.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2012, 01:59:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 22, 2012, 01:45:34 AM
Some subtitles, those are.

May I ask why you went for that cycle?? (Please no obvious answers. I have eyes, too.)

1) To hear something different; to hear her idiosyncratic way with Beethoven (whether good or bad is yet to be determined)

2) Irresistible price for a new cycle: 8 CDs for the price of one. (Edit: well, it was irresistible when I ordered it last month; the price has since gone up)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 22, 2012, 05:51:19 AM
Can't wait to hear how eternally feminine Beethoven was in his dotage.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2012, 05:57:29 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 22, 2012, 05:51:19 AM
Can't wait to hear how eternally feminine Beethoven was in his dotage.

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 22, 2012, 06:15:18 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 22, 2012, 05:51:19 AM
Can't wait to hear how eternally feminine Beethoven was in his dotage.

Yeah, those disc titles are... special.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 22, 2012, 07:09:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2012, 01:59:54 AM
1) To hear something different; to hear her idiosyncratic way with Beethoven (whether good or bad is yet to be determined)


Sarge

My feeling too. 

The investment is low enough (as are my expectations) that it is worth hearing what she does with these works.  After sampling how the booklet is presented as a digital object, I am not so put off by the iTunes offering.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 23, 2012, 05:08:33 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 22, 2012, 01:45:34 AM
Some subtitles, those are.

Quote from: Brian on May 22, 2012, 06:15:18 AM
Yeah, those disc titles are... special.

One reviewer said Lim plays Beethoven as though it were Liszt. Her titles (and they are hers) seem to point in that interpretive direction.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 02:56:24 AM
After living with Lim's Beethoven and doing some comparative listening I find the best word to describe her playing as "fussy".   Ms. Lim's Complete Beethoven Piano sonatas is not among that group of sets I return to often, but I don't regret buying it.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 03:13:35 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 24, 2012, 02:56:24 AM
After living with Lim's Beethoven and doing some comparative listening I find the best word to describe her playing as "fussy".

I'd describe it as "fast and fussy." I've only listened to two discs but I doubt her style will change. I do find her interpretations interesting; they hold my attention and I often "rewind" to encore a movement. I've listened to her Moonlight a half dozen times. She does sometimes push herself up to and beyond her technical limitations but I like her courage :D  I think most folks, though, will hate her Beethoven. I'd only recommend it to the adventurous.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 03:13:35 AM
I'd describe it as "fast and fussy." I've only listened to two discs but I doubt her style will change. I do find her interpretations interesting; they hold my attention and I often "rewind" to encore a movement. I've listened to her Moonlight a half dozen times. She does sometimes push herself up to and beyond her technical limitations but I like her courage :D  I think most folks, though, will hate her Beethoven. I'd only recommend it to the adventurous.

Sarge

She can be commended for tackling the entire set of Beethoven sonatas and coming up with her own interpretative philosophy for the works, both individually and as linked works within a larger group.  However, I do not enjoy the reckless and exaggerated gesturing.  Of the newer recordings of these works I am most impressed by Jonathan Biss.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 05:11:37 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 24, 2012, 04:49:54 AMHowever, I do not enjoy the reckless and exaggerated gesturing.

I'd be disappointed if she weren't reckless and exaggerated. That's why I bought her cycle  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2012, 05:24:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 05:11:37 AM
I'd be disappointed if she weren't reckless and exaggerated. That's why I bought her cycle  ;D

Sarge

I expect few of us have much use for safe-as-milk Beethoven, either!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 05:30:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 05:11:37 AM
I'd be disappointed if she weren't reckless and exaggerated. That's why I bought her cycle  ;D

Sarge

I suppose so.  But, still, it's not so much the recklessness, by itself - but a sense that she is exaggerating the gesture to the point of becoming a distraction.  At least for me.  A little of that goes a long way.

Quote from: karlhenning on May 24, 2012, 05:24:23 AM
I expect few of us have much use for safe-as-milk Beethoven, either!

For sure.  But I also do not care for Beethoven done as soap opera.

:)

All that said. Lim's Beethoven is worth hearing and YMMV.

:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2012, 05:32:36 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 24, 2012, 05:30:35 AM
For sure.  But I also do not care for Beethoven done as soap opera.

Why am I thinking of Tootsie, suddenly? . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2012, 05:42:36 AM
Last night I discussed Classical music a bit with a woman that I was on a first date with. It was an awesome, long date and halfway through she revealed to me that she plays the piano! She mentioned that she played the Pathetique Sonata in High School! (Those of you who know me know that I adore Beethoven and I love the piano even more.) Someone pinch me . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2012, 05:53:36 AM
:-)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 24, 2012, 05:56:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 24, 2012, 05:24:23 AMI expect few of us have much use for safe-as-milk Beethoven, either!



Agreed, but that doesn't mean people want first attempt home brew, either.  Still waiting for my copy of the Lim set.  I'm most interested in the Op 31 and late sonatas, of course . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 05:57:21 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2012, 05:42:36 AM
Last night I discussed Classical music a bit with a woman that I was on a first date with. It was an awesome, long date and halfway through she revealed to me that she plays the piano! She mentioned that she played the Pathetique Sonata in High School! (Those of you who know me know that I adore Beethoven and I love the piano even more.) Someone pinch me . . .

That does sound like a dream, George. Too good to be true, but damn, dude, congratulations! I hope it goes beyond the first date.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2012, 07:25:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 05:57:21 AM
That does sound like a dream, George. Too good to be true, but damn, dude, congratulations! I hope it goes beyond the first date.

Sarge

Oh, yes. We've already made plans for tomorrow night and have discussed hanging out over the long weekend as well. She seems like the real thing. I am so psyched, because i have been dating over a year and have lost hope so many times, I am surprised I am still willing to go out. The real crazy thing is that she was over a half hour late and I left, called a friend and then something (I have no idea what) made me turn around and go back. But I am sure glad I did. We talked for over 9 hours! She's a sweetheart.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on May 24, 2012, 08:36:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2012, 05:11:37 AM
I'd be disappointed if she weren't reckless and exaggerated. That's why I bought her cycle  ;D

Sarge

Sudden vision of Beethoven on a motorcycle--Harley, of course--leather jacket and rather abused jeans,  and of course no helmet,  roaring up and offering a ride: "Hey babe!  Strap those engines on, we were born to run!"   With all that noise from his motorcycle, it's no wonder he went deaf.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 24, 2012, 08:37:53 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2012, 07:25:32 AM
Oh, yes. We've already made plans for tomorrow night and have discussed hanging out over the long weekend as well. She seems like the real thing. I am so psyched, because i have been dating over a year and have lost hope so many times, I am surprised I am still willing to go out. The real crazy thing is that she was over a half hour late and I left, called a friend and then something (I have no idea what) made me turn around and go back. But I am sure glad I did. We talked for over 9 hours! She's a sweetheart.

That's fantastic! And I know you; Beethoven's pretty essential. Chopin too ;)

Quote from: Arnold on May 24, 2012, 04:49:54 AMOf the newer recordings of these works I am most impressed by Jonathan Biss.

FF Guy? Paul Lewis? Brautigam? Oppitz? Sheppard? Lucchesini? Not saying I know all those myself, I'm just curious who you're comparing Biss to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 08:54:42 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 24, 2012, 08:37:53 AM
FF Guy? Paul Lewis? Brautigam? Oppitz? Sheppard? Lucchesini? Not saying I know all those myself, I'm just curious who you're comparing Biss to.

I haven't heard Lewis, and want to, but I have heard Stewart Goodyear, FF Guy, Oppitz and Brautigam, and have been impressed by all of them - there is no dearth of nice new recordings of Beethoven sonatas!  However, the one that remains strongest in my memory is Biss.  I am hoping he completes the cycle without undue delay. 

I think his playing displays strength, clarity and restraint, but he is not lacking in lyricism.  These qualities are what I look for most in these works, not more drama since the works themselves convey that without much need on the part of the performer to enhance that quality.  In fact, I am most impressed when a performer uses restraint to check an over abundance of drama, which can become trite in the wrong hands.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 10:06:10 AM
Re: Jonathan Biss recording schedule of the Beethoven sonatas

In May, I went into the studio to record four Beethoven sonatas, which constitute the first volume of what by the end of the decade, God and my sanity willing, will be a complete cycle of the 32 sonatas. This page will be devoted to the experience of living with this music/climbing this Everest.

From his blog about this project. (http://www.jonathanbiss.com/beethoven/)

He appears to be taking the long view, nine volumes scheduled for one per year.  While this will not make anyone happy who eagerly awaits each disc, it does impress me from the standpoint of a artist taking a serious approach to recording these works.

:)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2012, 10:07:34 AM
It's the right thing.  Why insist on his rushing it, and then turn around and criticize him for patches of flagging inspiration?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on May 24, 2012, 10:17:58 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 24, 2012, 10:06:10 AM
Re: Jonathan Biss recording schedule of the Beethoven sonatas

In May, I went into the studio to record four Beethoven sonatas, which constitute the first volume of what by the end of the decade, God and my sanity willing, will be a complete cycle of the 32 sonatas. This page will be devoted to the experience of living with this music/climbing this Everest.

From his blog about this project. (http://www.jonathanbiss.com/beethoven/)

Thanks for the link. He seems to have written a lot despite his performing and recording schedule. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 24, 2012, 10:28:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 24, 2012, 10:07:34 AMWhy insist on his rushing it



Because I want it now!  Will I be able to find alternatives?

(Bavouzet is taking a similarly long view with Haydn, damn it.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2012, 10:31:19 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 24, 2012, 10:28:53 AM
(Bavouzet is taking a similarly long view with Haydn, damn it.)

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 10:35:02 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 24, 2012, 10:28:53 AM
(Bavouzet is taking a similarly long view with Haydn, damn it.)

Yes, but he already has three volumes out.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 10:43:06 AM
Too bad this is OOP

(http://www.fortepiano.eu/site/site-gallery/cd/beethoven_bilson.jpg)

It is available through eMusic.  But, I will try to find it for less $ than Amazon's 3rd-party sellers are asking.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2012, 10:56:36 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 24, 2012, 10:43:06 AM
Too bad this is OOP

(http://www.fortepiano.eu/site/site-gallery/cd/beethoven_bilson.jpg)

It is available through eMusic.  But, I will try to find it for less $ than Amazon's 3rd-party sellers are asking.

It seems like something that I would like too, but reviews have been all over the board and I bailed when the opportunity arose. Probably a mistake, but caution got the better of me. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 24, 2012, 11:05:09 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 24, 2012, 10:56:36 AM
It seems like something that I would like too, but reviews have been all over the board and I bailed when the opportunity arose. Probably a mistake, but caution got the better of me. :-\

8)

Odd about the reviews since these are all first rate musicians.  I have yet to be disappointed by Bilson.  This was a project from Cornell's music program (http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/97/10.16.97/Bilson.html) with Bilson and some of his former students, early in their careers, and it could be that their artistic personalities were not fully formed.

I'm curious.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2012, 11:34:58 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 24, 2012, 11:05:09 AM
Odd about the reviews since these are all first rate musicians.  I have yet to be disappointed by Bilson.  This was a project from Cornell's music program (http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/97/10.16.97/Bilson.html) with Bilson and some of his former students, early in their careers, and it could be that their artistic personalities were not fully formed.

I'm curious.

Me too. I know more now than I did then (2007?) when I first ran across it. For one thing, who to share tastes with. Probably now I wouldn't even hesitate. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2012, 11:38:44 AM
That's a river we cannot step into twice . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 24, 2012, 03:09:56 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 24, 2012, 08:37:53 AM
That's fantastic! And I know you; Beethoven's pretty essential. Chopin too ;)

Yep, but she's so cool that I could overlook her not liking Chopin.  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2012, 12:32:24 AM
Quote from: George on May 24, 2012, 03:09:56 PM
Yep, but she's so cool that I could overlook her not liking Chopin.  :D

We want pictures!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 25, 2012, 04:03:36 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 24, 2012, 10:28:53 AM


Because I want it now!  Will I be able to find alternatives?

(Bavouzet is taking a similarly long view with Haydn, damn it.)

Speaking of Bavouzet, I just bought vol. 1 of what looks like another new set of Beethoven sonatas.  Just released on May 1st (as d/l; CD available May 29th) the first three discs are not priced friendly, but I opted for the download for $5.99.

[asin]B007KWD72E[/asin]

He chose to release them in numerical order, not my preference (I like it when there is a program of sonatas, from all periods on a disc), and I am listening to No. 1 in F Minor, Op. 2 right now.  Since I like Bavouzet's playing and have yet to be disappointed, I expect that this set will rise to the top of my collection.  No nonsense Beethoven, but (so far) conveyed with absolute technical command and some flair.  I especially like the recorded sound, not absolutely dry, just the right amount of early reflection and not closely miked - just about perfect, IMO.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 25, 2012, 04:35:03 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2012, 12:32:24 AM
We want pictures!!!  ;D

;D

Funny, I spoke to her last night and I thought our communication was poor. She didn't get my jokes, couldn't really keep up with me and she also mentioned that she lied about her age, that she's 7 years older than she indicates on her online dating profile. And she was over a half hour late for our first date. So I don't see this as having long term potential and she's not the "fun" type that I feel I could just hang out with and be more casual with. My best friend, who is a woman, suggested I not see her again, based only on the fact that she lied about her age.

Sorry for the off topic rant, guys, but if any of you have any thoughts on this please PM them to me?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 25, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
My thought is pretty simple, so I'll just post it here - honesty is the foundation to any successful relationship between two human beings.

Also, I'm really ticked off that I'm at my work computer right now and going straight to vacation from the office without visiting home first, because I want that $5.99 Bavouzet download. An absurd bargain. I'm not actually a big fan of the early sonatas (my favorites begin with No 12) but at that price...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 25, 2012, 06:43:21 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
I'm not actually a big fan of the early sonatas (my favorites begin with No 12) but at that price...

No. 5 and No. 8 are two of my favorites of all of the works - but I do not consider any of them "young works".

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 25, 2012, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2012, 07:55:43 AM
I have that and FFG's second volume carted.  I only buy CDs still as MP3s sound crappy.

I cannot tell any difference in the 256 MP3s from Amazon and a CD.  So, I hardly ever buy a CD if there is a download, especially when the price is so much lower.  And I listen to Spotify to fill gaps in my purchasing.  All of the FF Guy sonatas are there, as well as the Oppitz and Biss.   I bought Lim when I saw she was not on Spotify, but opted for the iTunes d/l since is was a fraction of the cost of the CDs.  I'm really glad I did, too.

Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2012, 07:55:43 AM
I think the CD price is low.  [...] Prices for recorded music have never been lower, adjusted for inflation.

It is often the case for a complete box of the Beethoven sonatas, usually 9 discs, will go from anywhere of $60-$90, three 3-CD volumes of Bavouzet's at ~ $40 per would make his come in at around $120.  Not what I'd call a bargain.

Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2012, 07:55:43 AM
Think of the 78s era and how much those recordings cost.

Although my ears (and I) are old enough to not hear a difference between a good d/l and a CD, I'm not old enough to remember the price of 78s.

:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 25, 2012, 08:09:00 AM
I cannot tell any difference in the 256 MP3s from Amazon and a CD.  So, I hardly ever buy a CD if there is a download, especially when the price is so much lower.  And I listen to Spotify to fill gaps in my purchasing.  All of the FF Guy sonatas are there, as well as the Oppitz and Biss.   I bought Lim when I saw she was not on Spotify, but opted for the iTunes d/l since is was a fraction of the cost of the CDs.  I'm really glad I did, too.

It is often the case for a complete box of the Beethoven sonatas, usually 9 discs, will go from anywhere of $60-$90, three 3-CD volumes of Bavouzet's at ~ $40 per would make his come in at around $120.  Not what I'd call a bargain.

Although my ears (and I) are old enough to not hear a difference between a good d/l and a CD, I'm not old enough to remember the price of 78s.

:D

Presto has the Bavouzet at $31.50 (excluding VAT) plus s/h, and foreign transaction fees if applicable.  That would make the cycle about $95 US.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2012, 04:22:54 PM
It would seem logical to me that at some point,  we'll be able to download CD-quality sound files.  Probably for a premium, and requiring larger than normal bandwidth, but I don't see why it would not be possible.  Essentially, those that want CD quality sound will download a better file for a higher price, and those that are content with less sound quality or have less resources, computer and financial, will download the lesser quality versions.

On the actual topic of this thread--I just ordered FFG's vol. 1 and vol. 2 from Arkivmusic.    I don't know how they manage it--or perhaps simply the listing is wrong--but Arkiv lists vol. 2 as being currently available, and not as a future release available for advance order, even though the item listing gives the release date as June 12.  I think their Canada connection may have something to do with it. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 25, 2012, 07:27:52 PM
Been listening to Yusuke Kikuchi (2 vols - 4 CDs downloaded from 7digital).  MASSIVE technique.  Lovely brisk interpretations.  Wonderful sound (Triton).   The last two volumes are on HMV Japan.  Am definitely going to get them, hang the cost.
In fact, I note that 7digital (and itunes) has a lot of exton recordings (Macal and Kobayashi with the Czech phil, Asahina in Osaka) at great prices.  Someone has made a mistake on some of them because they are less than 2 pounds each.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 26, 2012, 02:50:38 PM
I'm listening to Bavouzet on Naxos Music Library (in what they call near CD sound - sounds OK to me) and am really liking what I am hearing so far. While there is nothing new or startling about J-EBs interpretations they sound very good to me. What does stand out is his clear articulation and his ability to bring the left hand a bit more to the forefront where needed (but not too much). This chamber music approach, I believe, really enhances the LvB sonatas - especially the early ones. The other thing I really like is that he takes his time with the slow movements. I'd be interested to see how Todd rates it. My copy of the mono Kempff cycle is on its way so I will have something to refer back to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on May 28, 2012, 07:32:52 AM
In case you didn't know:

(http://www.gramophone.co.uk/sites/gramophone.co.uk/files/imagecache/news_main_image/LimEMI.jpg)

In this month's edition of the Gramophone Podcast, editor-in-chief James Jolly talks to EMI pianist HJ Lim about recording Beethoven sonatas... (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/beethoven-britten-and-chopin-from-hj-lim-gianandrea-noseda-and-janina-fialkowsk)

[19:32]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on May 28, 2012, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 28, 2012, 07:32:52 AM
In case you didn't know:

(http://www.gramophone.co.uk/sites/gramophone.co.uk/files/imagecache/news_main_image/LimEMI.jpg)

In this month's edition of the Gramophone Podcast, editor-in-chief James Jolly talks to EMI pianist HJ Lim about recording Beethoven sonatas... (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/beethoven-britten-and-chopin-from-hj-lim-gianandrea-noseda-and-janina-fialkowsk)

[19:32]

So potentially another Beethoven Sonatas set?  With over 10 sets of these works, I think I already have enough.  I still have the set by Arrau I recently purchased I should start listening to ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2012, 07:53:06 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 25, 2012, 04:22:54 PM
It would seem logical to me that at some point,  we'll be able to download CD-quality sound files.

There are quite a few ways to do that. Some premium labels - notably Channel Classics, 2L, Chandos, and a few new Hyperion releases - are downloadable at "studio master" quality, ie in theory better sound quality than can be achieved on a CD. In addition many more labels, like BIS, offer FLAC through associated web shops.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2012, 05:08:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2012, 07:53:06 PM
There are quite a few ways to do that. Some premium labels - notably Channel Classics, 2L, Chandos, and a few new Hyperion releases - are downloadable at "studio master" quality, ie in theory better sound quality than can be achieved on a CD...

optional reading:  http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html (http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 30, 2012, 12:17:49 AM
I've just received this

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/RRC9010.jpg)

Kempff LvB PS Cycle - mono from 51-56.

Have already heard Op 2 and Op 7 is playing now. This is very interesting playing, very different from just about anything I've heard. The Gilels is the only thing that comes to mind. So far there is no bombast, no little pecadillos or idiosyncrasies yet this is a really fresh approach to anything I've heard. Kempff is happy to take his time when he needs to but can be quite incisive (Scherzo from Op2/2 for example).

The remastered sound has a bit of clang in places and I wonder if the DG is the same. My first ever classical recording was 8/14/23 from this set and I will be interested to hear it after a 40 year hiatus.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 30, 2012, 04:24:21 AM
Wow, I didn't know that Regis reissued that set, Holden.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 31, 2012, 05:54:06 AM
Just read on rmcr that Decca is going to release another new recording of the LvB sonatas by Daniel Barenboim in October.  That's four cycles; he'll surpass Brendel and Gulda.  I'm thinking I'll buy, just 'cause.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 31, 2012, 06:15:20 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2012, 05:54:06 AM
Just read on rmcr that Decca is going to release another new recording of the LvB sonatas by Daniel Barenboim in October.  That's four cycles; he'll surpass Brendel and Gulda.  I'm thinking I'll buy, just 'cause.

Barenboim is having a weird year. He's doing a new recording of the sonatas and he's also doing a new recording of the complete symphonies (his second), coming out next month. West-Eastern Divan Orchestra. And in case you're wondering if something's missing... he's doing the five concertos, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2012, 06:27:23 AM
A weird year, a Beethoven year . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 31, 2012, 06:33:41 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2012, 05:54:06 AM
Just read on rmcr that Decca is going to release another new recording of the LvB sonatas by Daniel Barenboim in October.  That's four cycles; he'll surpass Brendel and Gulda.  I'm thinking I'll buy, just 'cause.

Plus, you said his latest on EMI DVD was his best yet, right? So maybe the Decca will be even better?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 31, 2012, 06:36:02 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2012, 05:54:06 AM
Just read on rmcr that Decca is going to release another new recording of the LvB sonatas by Daniel Barenboim in October.  That's four cycles; he'll surpass Brendel and Gulda.  I'm thinking I'll buy, just 'cause.

In in too - if d/l available.

:)

However, I like his first set well enough that this would be just out of curiosity.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2012, 06:38:59 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 31, 2012, 06:36:02 AM
However, I like his first set well enough that this would be just out of curiosity.

In honor of this thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20573.0.html) . . . aren't all performances by a single artist the same? Hasn't it been done before? ; )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 31, 2012, 06:39:34 AM
Quote from: George on May 31, 2012, 06:33:41 AMPlus, you said his latest on EMI DVD was his best yet, right? So maybe the Decca will be even better?



Yes, the DVD cycle is his best, so one can hope that the new one is even better.  I just find it odd that he's recording (or proabably already has recorded) one so soon after the last.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 31, 2012, 06:42:11 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 31, 2012, 06:39:34 AM


Yes, the DVD cycle is his best, so one can hope that the new one is even better.  I just find it odd that he's recording (or proabably already has recorded) one so soon after the last.

I guess the change of label means it will be completely different performances than the live EMI ones?

I find it strange that the EMI set wasn't issued on CD as well as DVD.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2012, 06:43:19 AM
Maybe they felt that CD sales would diminish the DVD volume?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on May 31, 2012, 06:43:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 31, 2012, 06:38:59 AM
In honor of this thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20573.0.html) . . . aren't all performances by a single artist the same? Hasn't it been done before? ; )

:D

Sometimes the obvious value of a second, or third, or fourth, look from another vantage point is overlooked by those folks who are driven to seek out the never-been-done before.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on May 31, 2012, 06:57:35 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 31, 2012, 06:43:32 AM
:D

Sometimes the obvious value of a second, or third, or fourth, look from another vantage point is overlooked by those folks who are driven to seek out the never-been-done before.

True, but in this case I'm more interested in the different vantage points of musicians A and B rather than the two different vantage points of A.

That said,  I don't have any Barenboim--Beethoven.  Symphonies,  Sonatas, or Piano Concertos.  So there's a better than even chance that I'll get this new one of the sonatas.  (And the Concertos.  But not the Symphonies.  I've already got fifteen sets of the symphonies,  that's quite enough for now, thank you.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 01, 2012, 09:11:49 PM
Any reviews on the Regis Kempff mono set....I would love to hear which is the preferred.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 02, 2012, 05:01:36 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 01, 2012, 09:11:49 PM
Any reviews on the Regis Kempff mono set....I would love to hear which is the preferred.

Do you mean VS the DG? If so, every Regis CD I have compared to the original (a half dozen or so) had the same sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 02, 2012, 07:59:45 AM
Quote from: George on June 02, 2012, 05:01:36 AM
Do you mean VS the DG? If so, every Regis CD I have compared to the original (a half dozen or so) had the same sound.

So, by the cheapest of the two?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 02, 2012, 08:30:10 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 02, 2012, 07:59:45 AM
So, by the cheapest of the two?

I say get the DG, you can still get it pretty cheap and the packaging is nice, classy even. There are 3rd party sellers at amazon who still have it for pretty cheap.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 02, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: George on June 02, 2012, 08:30:10 AM
I say get the DG, you can still get it pretty cheap and the packaging is nice, classy even.

Good afternoon, buddy!  Glad to reconnect and hope all is well.  DG it is.  Let me go digging.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 02, 2012, 08:37:54 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 02, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
Good afternoon, buddy!  Glad to reconnect and hope all is well.  DG it is.  Let me go digging.

Amazon has it (see above edit)

Afternoon! I am in princeton on my way to the Princeton Record Exchange. It's 70, sunny and low humidity over here! 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 02, 2012, 08:51:08 AM
Quote from: George on June 02, 2012, 08:37:54 AM
Amazon has it (see above edit)

Afternoon! I am in princeton on my way to the Princeton Record Exchange. It's 70, sunny and low humidity over here! 8)

BOOM! 

That's the sound of George starting a perfect day!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 02, 2012, 02:53:21 PM
Quote from: George on June 02, 2012, 08:37:54 AM
Amazon has it (see above edit)

Afternoon! I am in princeton on my way to the Princeton Record Exchange. It's 70, sunny and low humidity over here! 8)

Hi George - good hunting!  :D   I sold well over a 150 CDs to PREX a few months ago (all in perfect shape, BTW!) - culling my collection for well over a year - SO, you might buy some of mine?  Dave  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 02, 2012, 03:04:46 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 01, 2012, 09:11:49 PM
Any reviews on the Regis Kempff mono set....I would love to hear which is the preferred.

I have no quibbles about the Regis performances which I am enjoying but have some major caveats about the sound. I am wondering if this was remastered, and what from, because the dynamic range is variable from recording to recording. Sometimes it is so low I have to turn up the volume on my PC audio set up to hear it properly and this is particularly noticeable on headphones where my amp alone controls the volume. Some of recordings are a bit clangorous as well and yet there are no mentions of sound deficiencies in any of the reviews I've read.

To test this out I went on to Spotify to see if I could hear the same differences but they seemed to be fine. The Spotify version is the DG (well according to the album art anyway). Could anyone who has the DGG mono like to comment on this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 02, 2012, 03:13:12 PM
The DG does not have that issue, so regis muct have remastered it. Sorry to hear that Holden!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 02, 2012, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: George on June 02, 2012, 03:13:12 PM
The DG does not have that issue, so regis muct have remastered it. Sorry to hear that Holden!

I only have a small handful of CD's by Regis.  I understand that many Sviatoslav Richter's recordings have been released on Regis over the years.  How is the SQ of those recordings overall?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 02, 2012, 04:55:17 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 02, 2012, 04:52:57 PM
I only have a small handful of CD's by Regis.  I understand that many Sviatoslav Richter's recordings have been released on Regis over the years.  How is the SQ of those recordings overall?

Perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 02, 2012, 04:57:23 PM
Quote from: George on June 02, 2012, 04:55:17 PM
Perfectly fine.

Thanks George.  I will do a big sweep at BRO since it has these Regis for $3-4 a piece.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 03, 2012, 08:19:22 AM
Okay, I'm caving in and sampling HJ Lim on Naxos Music Library.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/5099946495457.jpg)

Wow, this girl is nuts, and in an enjoyably perverse way. I started with a couple individual movements whose timings seemed bizarre - Moonlight i, Op 79/ii - and now I'm listening all the way through to Op 31 No 3. This is really weird indeed, aggressively fast but not aggressively loud or overemotive. There are a few moments of aural slapstick. It's not Nicolas Cage; it's John Candy.

EDIT: Wait. She skipped Op 49? Why does the cover say "complete"? What kind of pianist would want to skip Op 49? Okay, I need to get back to enjoying the bananas playing or else I'll get angry.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 03, 2012, 08:47:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 03, 2012, 08:19:22 AMWhat kind of pianist would want to skip Op 49?



She plays the sonatas unlike anyone else, so why on earth should she record all of the sonatas like anyone else?  Besides, Op 49 are sonatinas if you think about, right?

I got my set and made it through the second volume.  I must find the strength to make it through the third.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 03, 2012, 10:42:10 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 03, 2012, 08:47:37 AM


She plays the sonatas unlike anyone else, so why on earth should she record all of the sonatas like anyone else?  Besides, Op 49 are sonatinas if you think about, right?

I got my set and made it through the second volume.  I must find the strength to make it through the third.

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 03, 2012, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 03, 2012, 08:47:37 AM


She plays the sonatas unlike anyone else, so why on earth should she record all of the sonatas like anyone else?  Besides, Op 49 are sonatinas if you think about, right?

I got my set and made it through the second volume.  I must find the strength to make it through the third.

[pushes HJ Lim out of the shopping cart.  Hopefully she'll land safely.]


I received Vols. 1 and 2 of the F-F Guy Sonatas yesterday.  While I have yet to listen to a note of it, and probably won't for a while(Mount To-Be-Listened-To is mighty big),  I can say that Vol. 2 was recorded at the same series of concerts (spread out over two years or so) as Vol. 1, so the quality of Vol. 2 should be the same as Vol. 1.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on June 03, 2012, 05:15:34 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 03, 2012, 05:07:57 PM
[pushes HJ Lim out of the shopping cart.  Hopefully she'll land safely.]


I received Vols. 1 and 2 of the F-F Guy Sonatas yesterday.  While I have yet to listen to a note of it, and probably won't for a while(Mount To-Be-Listened-To is mighty big),  I can say that Vol. 2 was recorded at the same series of concerts (spread out over two years or so) as Vol. 1, so the quality of Vol. 2 should be the same as Vol. 1.

I need to find time to get started on this Arrau's set, which arrived from ArkivMusic a few weeks ago ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EfMefxLOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 03, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 03, 2012, 05:07:57 PMI can say that Vol. 2 was recorded at the same series of concerts (spread out over two years or so) as Vol. 1, so the quality of Vol. 2 should be the same as Vol. 1.



FFG should act as a soothing balm after listening to Lim.  I got through her Op 10 today.  That was plenty.  I certainly do not want to dissuade anyone from listening to Lim; for those who want to hear crappy Beethoven, she's just the ticket.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 03, 2012, 05:39:41 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 03, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
I certainly do not want to dissuade anyone from listening to Lim; for those who want to hear crappy Beethoven, she's just the ticket.

:D

While I wouldn't go this far, I can't imagine recommending her set.  That said, I am not sorry to have spent under $10 for it.

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Beale on June 04, 2012, 06:09:49 AM
Hi, newbie question.

The OP posted this in 2007:
29. "Hammerklavier"   Pollini – Gulda, Fischer, Solomon, Serkin, Yudina, Barenboim, Nat, Backhaus, Kempff(m), Gilels

Does this list for op106 still hold today? Are there any newcomers worth considering, e.g. Paul Lewis?

I have this in a Schnabel box set, but I desire a better sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 04, 2012, 06:37:22 AM
Welcome!  :)

Quote from: Beale on June 04, 2012, 06:09:49 AM
Hi, newbie question.

The OP posted this in 2007:
29. "Hammerklavier"   Pollini – Gulda, Fischer, Solomon, Serkin, Yudina, Barenboim, Nat, Backhaus, Kempff(m), Gilels

Does this list for op106 still hold today?

Yes.

QuoteAre there any newcomers worth considering, e.g. Paul Lewis?

No newcomers, and I am not a not a fan of Lewis's Beethoven.

QuoteI have this in a Schnabel box set, but I desire a better sound

Pollini should fit the bill nicely. You can get his late sonatas cheap on DG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 04, 2012, 09:19:31 PM
Stewart Goodyear's 106 is fantastic if you like a blistering seat-of-your pants style at Beethoven's markings (which is the only style I like).  Gilels just puts me to sleep.  I find it unlistenable.  Charles Rosen's second recording (coupled with 101) is also pretty devil-may-care.  Also love Valentina Litsitsa  [sic???] for similar reasons.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on June 04, 2012, 09:52:41 PM
i actually loved Lewis' 106 [and am definitely not a fan of most of his cycle]

Goode's is also really interesting

Brautigam takes the prize probably

and has anybody seen/heard nobuyuki tsujii? this one really moves me and i cant really figure out why!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0oXtOGMsKI
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 05, 2012, 05:51:42 AM
Quote from: xochitl on June 04, 2012, 09:52:41 PMi actually loved Lewis' 106 [and am definitely not a fan of most of his cycle]



Indeed.  If Lewis' entire cycle was as good as 106, it would be one of the great cycles.  It was not to be.

Of recent new (for me) 106s, Eschenbach's DG recording is the most impressive, one of the best committed to disc to my ears.  Goodyear's is also superb.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 05, 2012, 07:38:23 AM
Re: Op. 106

I echo the praise for Stewart Goodyear's playing of this sonata, arguably Beethoven's most demanding - but his first movement may be a bit too fast for my taste. However, I am not a fan of the "old school" approach to play the first movement with grand nobility, and instead prefer a more period accurate and appropriate faster tempo and lighter touch - but not as fast or light as Goodyear. 

Better to my ears than Goodyear, are Peter Takacs and F. F. Guy, who may be the best of these three.

A recording done about ten years ago by Stephen Kovacevich is also recommended.  He cycle (ten years in the making) is not often mentioned but is very good overall, imo. 

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Beale on June 05, 2012, 07:58:26 AM
I've just been watching Valentina Lisitsa play 106 on youtube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwysjbPmus ). Would that be considered too fast?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 05, 2012, 08:44:51 AM
Quote from: Beale on June 05, 2012, 07:58:26 AM
I've just been watching Valentina Lisitsa play 106 on youtube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwysjbPmus ). Would that be considered too fast?

I wouldn't. Here's a short sample (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonata-Flat-Major-Op-106/dp/B0045ONKTK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1338911527&sr=8-2) from Goodyear, whom I haven't heard before but, after the recent posts, my interest is now piqued.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on June 05, 2012, 08:54:11 AM
Quote from: Beale on June 05, 2012, 07:58:26 AM
I've just been watching Valentina Lisitsa play 106 on youtube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwysjbPmus ). Would that be considered too fast?

No, definitely within the mainstream of tempos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2012, 05:55:47 AM
Quote from: Beale on June 04, 2012, 06:09:49 AM
Hi, newbie question.

The OP posted this in 2007:
29. "Hammerklavier"   Pollini – Gulda, Fischer, Solomon, Serkin, Yudina, Barenboim, Nat, Backhaus, Kempff(m), Gilels

Does this list for op106 still hold today? Are there any newcomers worth considering, e.g. Paul Lewis?



Stephen Beus on youtube and Lucchesini on EMI.

The OP's list leaves out some interesting oldies, most obviously Glenn Gould and  Ernst Levy and Arrau and Annie Fischer but also I think Richter is worth hearing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 06, 2012, 06:18:33 AM
Re: Op. 106
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2012, 05:55:47 AM
...most obviously Glenn Gould...

Oh my goodness, the pauses are killing me! [As I listen to the piece on YouTube.]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on June 06, 2012, 06:39:49 AM
You can hear Louis Kentner's recording of the Hammerklavier Sonata on my site
http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcriptions_07.php
      I think he qualifies as "an interesting oldie"!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2012, 06:46:40 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 06, 2012, 06:18:33 AM
Re: Op. 106
Oh my goodness, the pauses are killing me! [As I listen to the piece on YouTube.]

Gould in Beethoven . . . it's the musical version of a hostile take-over.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 06, 2012, 07:35:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 06, 2012, 06:46:40 AM
Gould in Beethoven . . . it's the musical version of a hostile take-over.

I will say, though, that Gould's Beethoven is better than his outright abuse of Haydn and Mozart.   :D

Re: Op. 106, Claude Frank is very good from the older school.

:)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 07, 2012, 05:02:25 AM
Another  one to try is Frederic Rzewski's Hammerklavier recording. How many times has François-Frédéric Guy recorded it?  I too have high expectations from Peter Takacs. I'll play it this weekend. I heard Demidenko play it once very interestingly but I haven't heard the CD.

Another favourite of mine is Brendel's live CD from a Vienna concert.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 07, 2012, 05:59:54 AM
I went back and listened to a couple of recordings that I like very much but somehow never seem to figure large when I think of offering recommendations:

John O'Conor
Richard Goode


Both of these pianists play the Hammerklavier the way I like it, and the recorded sound of their sets are excellent.

George Pludermacher, OTOH, seems jerky at times and somewhat sloppy, but does convey the right kind of energy.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: snyprrr on June 07, 2012, 06:18:56 AM
Unless 'you' say NO, I'm going for Pollini's 'Late Sonatas' on the 'Originals' (that's the 'corrected' sound, right?). I have no LvB.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 07, 2012, 06:29:10 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2012, 06:18:56 AM
Unless 'you' say NO, I'm going for Pollini's 'Late Sonatas' on the 'Originals' (that's the 'corrected' sound, right?).

I prefer the sound on the original issue:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5197UTRTyGL._SS500_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Late-Piano-Sonatas-28-32-Beethoven/dp/B000001G7E/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339079275&sr=8-4

QuoteI have no LvB.

I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 07, 2012, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2012, 06:18:56 AM
I have no LvB.

What! Not even the . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . . string quartets???!!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 07, 2012, 07:06:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 07, 2012, 06:53:20 AM
What! Not even the . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . . string quartets???!!!!


In snyprrr's defence, they are pre-Berlioz-the-composer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2012, 07:24:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2012, 05:55:47 AM
The OP's list leaves out some interesting oldies, most obviously Glenn Gould

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)


Quote from: Opus106 on June 06, 2012, 06:18:33 AM
Re: Op. 106
Oh my goodness, the pauses are killing me!

You need lots of patience to get through Gould's Hammerklavier...I think the wait is worth it  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2012, 07:27:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 06, 2012, 06:46:40 AM
Gould in Beethoven . . . it's the musical version of a hostile take-over.

He actually admired that sonata, and was more than a little intimidated by it. When he was finally persuaded to record it, he gave it much thought, much study and, in my opinion, gave us one of the great Hammerklaviers. Well, one of the most interesting ones anyway.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on June 07, 2012, 07:29:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2012, 07:27:30 AM
He actually admired that sonata, and was more than a little intimidated by it. When he was finally persuaded to record it, he gave it much thought, much study and, in my opinion, gave us one of the great Hammerklaviers. Well, one of the most interesting ones anyway.

Sarge

I love Gould's take on the slow movement especially.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 07, 2012, 07:29:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2012, 07:24:03 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)


You need lots of patience to get through Gould's Hammerklavier...I think the wait is worth it  ;)

Sarge

I'm not surprised you say that, but it will have to wait for the day. ;) Despite the slowness (and those pauses! ::)), I felt the music in between flowed... at some speed. I guess it's too bad that I knew that he was playing (trying to) the Hammerklavier; otherwise I might have bought it (his performance, not necessarily the recording).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 07, 2012, 07:32:26 AM
Quote from: springrite on June 07, 2012, 07:29:53 AM
I love Gould's take on the slow movement especially.

Now that I haven't yet heard; I was too much put off by the first. I'll give it a listen later.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 07, 2012, 07:32:51 AM
Most interesting, Sarge, thanks.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: snyprrr on June 07, 2012, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 07, 2012, 06:53:20 AM
What! Not even the . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . . string quartets???!!!!


Haven't re-uped since the Melos back in the day (I have a hard time getting things like Beethoven and Shostakovich when I seemingly have them them burnt into my circuit boards like Stairway to Heaven and Freebird!  can hear the 'best' versions just by thinking about them!! ;)). Currently, you have Liszt to thank for my interest! I'm considering Katsaris's  Cycle of Transcriptions. What say you?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: snyprrr on June 07, 2012, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: George on June 07, 2012, 06:29:10 AM
I prefer the sound on the original issue:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5197UTRTyGL._SS500_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Late-Piano-Sonatas-28-32-Beethoven/dp/B000001G7E/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339079275&sr=8-4

I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.

I was afraid of that. You know all the Amazon reviews say that that one is the one with the 'surface brittle' sound, or something. This is more important than what I'm having for dinner, so I WILL need to get to the bottom of this. Should I start a Special Thread?? ???

I can deal with the sound that 'they' have told me to expect, but I'm not ready for the typical 'bad D(o)G' piano sound. I know I will probably like one and not the other, but, as you can see, I don't know which one.

I would love to just trust you George,... but,... but,... can you write me an essay of 500 words as to why you prefer the original, and not the 'Originals'? ;D pleeeeeez!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on June 07, 2012, 01:24:18 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2012, 12:35:17 PM
Haven't re-uped since the Melos back in the day (I have a hard time getting things like Beethoven and Shostakovich when I seemingly have them them burnt into my circuit boards like Stairway to Heaven and Freebird!  can hear the 'best' versions just by thinking about them!! ;)). Currently, you have Liszt to thank for my interest! I'm considering Katsaris's  Cycle of Transcriptions. What say you?

Curiously I read that two times as Firebird...
You not owning the late quartets (and the Razumovskys, too) is astonishing to hear!
It's more understandable if you've heard them a lot, but that's nothing more than an excuse to get a new recording  :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 07, 2012, 01:43:59 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2012, 12:40:20 PM
I would love to just trust you George,... but,... but,... can you write me an essay of 500 words as to why you prefer the original, and not the 'Originals'? ;D pleeeeeez!!!

What if he just rambles and rants 500 words' worth? Like, erm, a chappie we know?

George, lad: you up for that? : )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 07, 2012, 02:23:30 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 07, 2012, 01:43:59 PM
What if he just rambles and rants 500 words' worth? Like, erm, a chappie we know?

George, lad: you up for that? : )

Nah, I am bushed.

I can say that I have yet to hear an Originals mastering that was better than the original. I've compared about 10 or so and they seem to always sound filtered and over-processed to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 07, 2012, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: George on June 07, 2012, 02:23:30 PM
Nah, I am bushed.


(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t17/Beatle_Girl_Paola/George%20Harrison/Sleeping.jpg)
George at home.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 07, 2012, 02:38:49 PM
I'm only sleeping...  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2012, 04:58:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2012, 07:27:30 AM
He actually admired that sonata, and was more than a little intimidated by it. When he was finally persuaded to record it, he gave it much thought, much study and, in my opinion, gave us one of the great Hammerklaviers. Well, one of the most interesting ones anyway.

Sarge

I'm sure I once read somewhere that at first he was reluctant to record it because he thought that he couldn't do better than one of Rosen's records. I don't know why he changed his mind

This may be a figment of my imagination. I can't find the place I read it.

By the way, Weingartner made an orchestral transcription of the Hammerklavier. I've. never enjoyed it as much as his Grosse Fugue, but that may just be a performance question.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2012, 06:24:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 07, 2012, 06:53:20 AM
What! Not even the . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . . string quartets???!!!!


Oy, I said I had no SQs?? Don't we all remember that Suske-mania I went through two years ago?? Yes, I have the SQs. ???

Wow, take about memory lapse! :-[
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 08, 2012, 06:42:08 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 08, 2012, 06:24:02 AM
Oy, I said I had no SQs?? Don't we all remember that Suske-mania I went through two years ago?? Yes, I have the SQs. ???

Wow, take about memory lapse! :-[

Karl's humor takes a while to sink in, but once it does - oh boy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 08, 2012, 06:44:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2012, 04:58:46 AM
By the way, Weingartner made an orchestral transcription of the Hammerklavier.

Thanks for letting us know. However Beethoven channels an orchestra through a piano sometimes, I sort of wonder how it would transcribed, especially so with the Op. 106. :)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 08, 2012, 07:13:38 AM
Quote from: George on June 07, 2012, 02:38:49 PM
I'm only sleeping...  8)

No, that was John - not George. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 08, 2012, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 08, 2012, 07:13:38 AM
No, that was John - not George. ;D

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 08, 2012, 05:29:11 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 08, 2012, 07:13:38 AM
No, that was John - not George. ;D

"Clever" is always appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
Guuuys,... don't force me to get the LP, the '90 relaase, aaand the 'Originals'! :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 08, 2012, 09:24:43 PM
 I couldn't help myself, I just had to go and listen to Gould's Hammerklavier (Youtube) and despite the perversity of approach (or maybe because of it) I enjoyed much of what I heard. Now before you knock the speed Gould adopts in the first movement, have a listen to Richter in both Prague and London and maybe you can see where Gould is coming from.

What appeals to me about a lot of the Gould LvB (not much so far) that I've heard is the way he brings out elements that are actually there in the music yet don't appear in other pianists versions.

That said, I'm not going to stick Gould up there as one of the great Beethoven pianists but he certainly has a lot of interesting and to my mind, relevant things to say.

Maybe I should spring for the complete cycle (or maybe not) :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2012, 09:45:16 PM
Another extremely great, orgiginal and  beautiful record of the Hammerklavier is Hans Richter Haaser's.

Gould's Beethoven is IMO his most successful work on record, apart from 20th century music. He is particularly good in the bagatelles and big sets of variations, but also in many of the early sonatas.

I also like his Appassionata.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Beale on June 09, 2012, 05:16:12 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 08, 2012, 09:24:43 PM
I couldn't help myself, I just had to go and listen to Gould's Hammerklavier (Youtube) and despite the perversity of approach (or maybe because of it) I enjoyed much of what I heard. Now before you knock the speed Gould adopts in the first movement, have a listen to Richter in both Prague and London and maybe you can see where Gould is coming from.
Maybe I should spring for the complete cycle (or maybe not) :-\

Me too, I found myself liking Gould's playing (on Youtube). But somehow it reminds me of a younger Beethoven.

EDIT: BTW I don't believe there is a complete cycle as such. The Hammerklavier is found on a CD partnered with no.24
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2012, 08:32:32 AM
Quote from: Beale on June 09, 2012, 05:16:12 AM
EDIT: BTW I don't believe there is a complete cycle as such. The Hammerklavier is found on a CD partnered with no.24

You're right, of course. The Beethoven he recorded for Columbia (22 of 32):


PIANO SONATA #1 F MINOR OP.2/1
PIANO SONATA #2 A MAJOR OP.2/2
PIANO SONATA #3 C MAJOR OP.2/3
PIANO SONATA #5 C MINOR OP.10/1
PIANO SONATA #6 F MAJOR OP.10/2
PIANO SONATA #7 D MAJOR OP.10/3
PIANO SONATA #8 C MINOR OP.13 "PATHETIQUE"
PIANO SONATA #9 E MINOR OP.14/1
PIANO SONATA #10 G MAJOR OP.14/2
PIANO SONATA #12 A FLAT OP.26 "MARCIA FUNEBRE"
PIANO SONATA #13 E FLAT OP.27/1
PIANO SONATA #14 C SHARP MINOR OP. 27/2 "MOONLIGHT"
PIANO SONATA #15 D MAJOR OP.28 "PASTORALE"
PIANO SONATA #16 F G MAJOR OP.31/1
PIANO SONATA #17 D MINOR OP.31/2 "TEMPEST"
PIANO SONATA #18 E FLAT OP.31/3
PIANO SONATA #23 F MINOR OP.57 "APPASSIONATA"
PIANO SONATA #24 F SHARP OP.78 "À THÉRÈSE"
PIANO SONATA #29 B MAJOR OP.106 "HAMMERKLAVIER"
PIANO SONATA #30 E MAJOR OP.109
PIANO SONATA #31 A FLAT OP.110
PIANO SONATA #32 C MINOR OP.111


Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 09, 2012, 05:30:50 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 08, 2012, 09:24:43 PM
I couldn't help myself, I just had to go and listen to Gould's Hammerklavier (Youtube) and despite the perversity of approach (or maybe because of it) I enjoyed much of what I heard. Now before you knock the speed Gould adopts in the first movement, have a listen to Richter in both Prague and London and maybe you can see where Gould is coming from.

What appeals to me about a lot of the Gould LvB (not much so far) that I've heard is the way he brings out elements that are actually there in the music yet don't appear in other pianists versions.

That said, I'm not going to stick Gould up there as one of the great Beethoven pianists but he certainly has a lot of interesting and to my mind, relevant things to say.

Maybe I should spring for the complete cycle (or maybe not) :-\

Two things to be forewarned about:
--Gould's habit of vocalizing over the music is especially noticeable in some of these recordings, especially in the Op. 10 works--enough to ruin it for me.

--the Sony budget box titled "Glenn Gould plays Beethoven" does not contain the full set of recordings.  It does contain the concertos and therefore is probably the most economical choice if you want to hear him in the concertos, but you'll still be missing ten sonatas.  The Sonatas included in the set are No. 5-10, 12-14, and 30-32.

Additional thread duty:  my copy of Bavouzet's first volume of the sonatas landed today.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 09, 2012, 05:33:13 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 09, 2012, 05:30:50 PMAdditional thread duty:  my copy of Bavouzet's first volume of the sonatas landed today.



Mine did, too.  I have some listening to do.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 10, 2012, 07:07:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2012, 08:32:32 AM
You're right, of course. The Beethoven he recorded for Columbia (22 of 32):


PIANO SONATA #1 F MINOR OP.2/1
PIANO SONATA #2 A MAJOR OP.2/2
PIANO SONATA #3 C MAJOR OP.2/3
PIANO SONATA #5 C MINOR OP.10/1
PIANO SONATA #6 F MAJOR OP.10/2
PIANO SONATA #7 D MAJOR OP.10/3
PIANO SONATA #8 C MINOR OP.13 "PATHETIQUE"
PIANO SONATA #9 E MINOR OP.14/1
PIANO SONATA #10 G MAJOR OP.14/2
PIANO SONATA #12 A FLAT OP.26 "MARCIA FUNEBRE"
PIANO SONATA #13 E FLAT OP.27/1
PIANO SONATA #14 C SHARP MINOR OP. 27/2 "MOONLIGHT"
PIANO SONATA #15 D MAJOR OP.28 "PASTORALE"
PIANO SONATA #16 F G MAJOR OP.31/1
PIANO SONATA #17 D MINOR OP.31/2 "TEMPEST"
PIANO SONATA #18 E FLAT OP.31/3
PIANO SONATA #23 F MINOR OP.57 "APPASSIONATA"
PIANO SONATA #24 F SHARP OP.78 "À THÉRÈSE"
PIANO SONATA #29 B MAJOR OP.106 "HAMMERKLAVIER"
PIANO SONATA #30 E MAJOR OP.109
PIANO SONATA #31 A FLAT OP.110
PIANO SONATA #32 C MINOR OP.111


Sarge

My son had given me the boxset of the Original Jacket Collection, but the recording of Op. 106 does not appear to be included.  It was recorded in 1968, on Columbia, so I am unsure why it is missing.

Hmmm ...  I am not a big Gould fan, but now my curoisity is piqued.

EDIT: I think I figured out why it's not in the big box, this recording was released much later after it was recorded, maybe even after his death, and may have been from a radio broadcast.  I am listening to the Youtube track of the first movement; so far: meh.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2012, 07:35:21 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 10, 2012, 07:07:19 AM
EDIT: I think I figured out why it's not in the big box, this recording was released much later after it was recorded, maybe even after his death, and may have been from a radio broadcast.  I am listening to the Youtube track of the first movement; so far: meh.

It was originally recorded for the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp) in 1970 and released by Sony on CD for the first time in 1993 as part of The Glenn Gould Edition:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/hammergould.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Beale on June 10, 2012, 07:36:05 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 10, 2012, 07:07:19 AM
EDIT: I think I figured out why it's not in the big box, this recording was released much later after it was recorded, maybe even after his death, and may have been from a radio broadcast.  I am listening to the Youtube track of the first movement; so far: meh.

:)

I believe it was not a studio recording, but like you said a radio broadcast.

Listening to Gould had me thinking just how much Beethoven's deafness had affected his late compositions. He was completely deaf at that stage, and had to rely on the vibrations of his floorbroad to hear his piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 10, 2012, 07:44:46 AM
Quote from: Beale on June 10, 2012, 07:36:05 AM
Listening to Gould had me thinking just how much Beethoven's deafness had affected his late compositions.

How so? I'm not sure I understand the connection.

Thread duty (sort of):

http://www.youtube.com/v/udgu1cHHa0k

A live performance by Brendel*. While not quite "rowdy" as I would like it to be, the first movement is much preferable to Gould.


*Doesn't he remind one of Eric Morecambe?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2012, 07:46:51 AM
Quote from: Beale on June 10, 2012, 07:36:05 AM
I believe it was not a studio recording, but like you said a radio broadcast..

No, it is a studio recording made by the CBC. According to a letter by Gould quoted in the liner notes, they finally overcame a series of scheduling problems and finished it "by Dec 1970." I assume the recording was subsequently broadcast.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 10, 2012, 09:06:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2012, 07:46:51 AM
No, it is a studio recording made by the CBC. According to a letter by Gould quoted in the liner notes, they finally overcame a series of scheduling problems and finished it "by Dec 1970." I assume the recording was subsequently broadcast.

Sarge

It no doubt is a studio recording, you have much more information at hand to go on, but the sound, at least judging from the Youtube clip is rather bad, which is why I took one of the comments to be credible that it may have been from a broadcast.  In any event, I did not find his interpretation impressive enough to fill the gap in my Original Jacket Collection, which is really more Gould than I know what to do with.

His Bach + 20th Century recordings make the box worthwhile; the other stuff I hardly listen to.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 10, 2012, 10:09:06 AM
Some random things

John Ogdon recorded the hammerklavier on LP but it's never been on CD as far as I know. I think it's wonderful, fortunately it's on youtube, here's a bit of it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/O6M-8HUGFuY

If anyone knows who I can get a CD or a download of it please let me know.

I like the Gould rhythmically and because of some of the contrapuntal ideas. I like the spirit of it and the tempo.

I listened to a few again, inluding Lim and Takacs and Richter-Haaser. Neither Lim or Takacs inspired me -- that could be me of course. But Richter-Haaser does, and I recmend it especially of you don't care for big monumental readings

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 10, 2012, 03:08:56 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 10, 2012, 10:09:06 AM
Some random things

John Ogdon recorded the hammerklavier on LP but it's never been on CD as far as I know. I think it's wonderful, fortunately it's on youtube, here's a bit of it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/O6M-8HUGFuY

If anyone knows who I can get a CD or a download of it please let me know.

I like the Gould rhythmically and because of some of the contrapuntal ideas. I like the spirit of it and the tempo.

I listened to a few again, inluding Lim and Takacs and Richter-Haaser. Neither Lim or Takacs inspired me -- that could be me of course. But Richter-Haaser does, and I recmend it especially of you don't care for big monumental readings

According to the Ogdon website, the recording never made it past the LP stage unless anyone can interpret this differently.

RCA Θ LSC-3123 / SB6821    
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 11, 2012, 06:04:17 PM
Over on rmcr there was mention that Stewart Goodyear's cycle is going to be released as a box soon.  I'd bought the first two volumes in anticipation of buying them all one at a time, but no!  It's like the Lim set.  Well, in that one regard only.

Goodyear, Lim, Bavouzet, and FFG all brand-spankin' new, with Jumppanen on the way, and Kikuchi and Nodaira available in the land of the rising sun.  I though I was out of new cycles to buy.  Whew!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on June 12, 2012, 03:44:52 PM
If the FFG set continues to be as good as the   3 disc volume number one, it could set the standard for modern Beethoven sonata cycles. Just fantastic playing, and the fact it is live (assuming no edits---admittedly a big assumption) makes it even more impressive. Phenomenal sound from the Arsenal de Metz only adds to its appeal. Could be the best cycle since Fischer and Gulda.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 12, 2012, 04:06:22 PM
As mentioned above, I've been listening to Kikuchi (had a thing about Japanese pianists recently) and would put him technically in the same league as Yokoyama (which in my book is pretty damn high).  But maybe it's because Yokoyama's set is taped live (I did hear a couple of rustles) he seems to have more juice.  In fact I find Yokoyama really good (if you can track down a set these days). I see he's now about 40.  Would be pretty excited if he decided to do another set.   If you want to dip into Kikuchi, you can get the middle sonatas (2 cds) on 7digital for about $9.99 MP3/MP4320.

Has anyone listened to all three (?) of the Sonoda sets?  Any recommendations on the best.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 12, 2012, 05:49:14 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on June 12, 2012, 03:44:52 PMIf the FFG set continues to be as good as the   3 disc volume number one, it could set the standard for modern Beethoven sonata cycles.


Pretty much, though I hasten to add that Lucchesini plays at as exalted a level.  Since Lucchesini has started dabbling in period instruments, perhaps he will record a second cycle. 




Quote from: Fred on June 12, 2012, 04:06:22 PMHas anyone listened to all three (?) of the Sonoda sets?  Any recommendations on the best.



I think there are only two sets, though clearly I could be wrong.  In any event, I have the Denon set and it's extremely good.  Among Japanese pianists that I've heard, Akiyoshi Sako's is the only one that compares overall.  If ever the yen falls, I plan on going for the Evica set. 

Yokoyama should indeed record another cycle.  His single studio disc was better than the live stuff, which I find a bit uneven.  Then again, Yokoyama is better in romantic repertoire to my ears.  His Chopin and Liszt are extremely fine, and the Franck/Faure violin sonatas disc is amazing, though a good part of that is the amazing sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 12, 2012, 06:14:12 PM
Thanks for that.  I will head off in pursuit of Sonoda and Sako.  Amazing what nimble fingers on the internet can find.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 12, 2012, 06:40:35 PM
Some sets I have not heard but have gotten some good comments - the Kuerti and Perl appear to be hard to find; Bernard Roberts can be had for around $25 (probably a good bet) - I've never heard of David Allen Wehr and would welcome some comments.

Alfredo Perl?

Anton Kuerti?

Bernard Roberts?

David Allen Wehr?


:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 12, 2012, 07:08:22 PM
Alfredo Perl?

Well played, somewhat leisurely tempos, not so hot sound.  A very good, "middle of the road" set.


Anton Kuerti?

His complete cycle is extremely idiosyncratic, and prone to very slow tempos in slow movements.  Mostly bizarre misses for me, though when he hits, it can be amazing (31/1).  His later recordings are better, and he was magnificent in person.


Bernard Roberts?

Well played, just about perfect tempos, decent sound.  One of the best "middle of the road" sets.


David Allen Wehr?

Very well played, with unusually prominent left hand playing throughout.  Powerful, vigourous, it's no wimpy LvB.  On par with Roberts, or thereabouts. 

None of the cycles really rates as a great, but they're good to hear. 

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on June 12, 2012, 10:12:44 PM
Todd, do you know of any current source for the  Lucchesini set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2012, 07:46:51 AM
No, it is a studio recording made by the CBC. According to a letter by Gould quoted in the liner notes, they finally overcame a series of scheduling problems and finished it "by Dec 1970." I assume the recording was subsequently broadcast.

Sarge

Sarge -- you have the HJ Lin recordings, right?

a.) Is it just all 32 or just 30 as the back-cover claims? (The same cover also refers to HJ Lin as "his/he", which makes one wonder about sloppiness and/or saving money on translators and/or whether it's a guy and the picture was just used to lure you in.

b.) Does it contain detailed recording dates?

Todd:

Do you know (of) the Russian (Soviet?) collective set with, among others, Pavel Egorov, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Vladimir Shakin, Galina Sandovskaya, Dmitri Efimov, and Igor Lebedev??

Anyone:

Anyone have the recording (not copyright) dates of any of these cycles? (earliest and last)

Ikuyo Nakamichi
2002? - BMG Japan

Daniela Varinska
???? - 2009? - Diskant

Shoko Sugitani
???? - 2007? - IDC Classic

Takahiro Sonoda I
????- ???? - Denon


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 13, 2012, 04:12:45 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2012, 07:08:22 PM
Alfredo Perl?

Well played, somewhat leisurely tempos, not so hot sound.  A very good, "middle of the road" set.


Anton Kuerti?

His complete cycle is extremely idiosyncratic, and prone to very slow tempos in slow movements.  Mostly bizarre misses for me, though when he hits, it can be amazing (31/1).  His later recordings are better, and he was magnificent in person.


Bernard Roberts?

Well played, just about perfect tempos, decent sound.  One of the best "middle of the road" sets.


David Allen Wehr?

Very well played, with unusually prominent left hand playing throughout.  Powerful, vigourous, it's no wimpy LvB.  On par with Roberts, or thereabouts. 

None of the cycles really rates as a great, but they're good to hear.

Thanks

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2012, 04:15:27 AM
Todd, I have the Kempff stereo set, which I enjoy just fine (and often more than just fine).  If I wanted to go so far as to fetch in a second, which set(s) would you recommend as possibilities? TIA
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
Sarge -- you have the HJ Lin recordings, right?

a.) Is it just all 32 or just 30 as the back-cover claims?

Just 30. The two op.49s are missing. I haven't read the complete liner notes yet. Perhaps there is an explanation why she didn't record them. I'll check it out. Why EMI calls this Complete Piano Sonatas on the cover is anyone's guess. Well, it does read better than Almost Complete Piano Sonatas  ;D

Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
(The same cover also refers to HJ Lin as "his/he", which makes one wonder about sloppiness and/or saving money on translators and/or whether it's a guy and the picture was just used to lure you in.

;D :D ;D   Without having checked her out personally, I think I'm still safe in saying she is really a woman. The instances of the use of he/his on the back cover all refer to Beethoven.

Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
b.) Does it contain detailed recording dates?

Unfortunately, no. All it says is: Recorded VII-VIII.2011, Faller Hall, La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland


Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2012, 04:47:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
(The same cover also refers to HJ Lin as "his/he", which makes one wonder about sloppiness and/or saving money on translators and/or whether it's a guy and the picture was just used to lure you in.)

(* takes note of valuable publicity strategy *)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 04:58:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2012, 04:47:59 AM
(* takes note of valuable publicity strategy *)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/julygmg/Karla%20Henning.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2012, 05:07:46 AM
Hey: the eyes are pretty close! That's a wrap.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Papy Oli on June 13, 2012, 05:08:03 AM
( Fake !!! there's no beard....  :P )

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 05:11:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2012, 04:15:27 AM
Todd, I have the Kempff stereo set, which I enjoy just fine (and often more than just fine).  If I wanted to go so far as to fetch in a second, which set(s) would you recommend as possibilities? TIA

I am not Todd, but it would be my pleasure to help.

Can you speak to what you feel may be missing from Kempff's set? Or if you prefer something more dramatic or more modern (objective)? 

For more dramatic, I'd say Annie Fischer would be the best compliment to Kempff. It's probably still expensive, though. Perhaps Kovacevich's EMI set? It's not a favorite of mine, as he gets too aggressive and the steely piano sound is not to my liking.

For more modern, Gulda is your man. Fast tempos, clean, impeccable playing. The Amadeo set was reissued on Brilliant and then later on Decca Eloquence with the concertos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 05:12:09 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on June 13, 2012, 05:08:03 AM
( Fake !!! there's no beard....  :P )

Nay, it's glued on top.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 05:16:14 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 05:12:09 AM
Nay, it's glued on top.

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 05:22:27 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 05:11:42 AM
For more dramatic, I'd say Annie Fischer would be the best compliment to Kempff. For more modern, Gulda is your man.

George recommending Fischer and Gulda. I'm shocked, shocked, I say. Who would have guessed?  ;D

;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2012, 05:27:05 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 05:11:42 AM
I am not Todd, but it would be my pleasure to help.

Can you speak to what you feel may be missing from Kempff's set? Or if you prefer something more dramatic or more modern (objective)? 

For more dramatic, I'd say Annie Fischer would be the best compliment to Kempff. It's probably still expensive, though. Perhaps Kovacevich's EMI set? It's not a favorite of mine, as he gets too aggressive and the steely piano sound is not to my liking.

For more modern, Gulda is your man. Fast tempos, clean, impeccable playing. The Amadeo set was reissued on Brilliant and then later on Decca Eloquence with the concertos.

Thanks, George!  I certainly did not mean even to seem to restrict the question to our esteemd Todd, and (as I hope you know) I value your own opinion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 05:27:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 05:22:27 AM
George recommending Fischer and Gulda. I'm shocked, shocked, I say. Who would have guessed?  ;D

;)

Sarge

Anyone with eyes and a computer.  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 05:31:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2012, 05:27:05 AM
Thanks, George!  I certainly did not mean even to seem to restrict the question to our esteemd Todd, and (as I hope you know) I value your own opinion.

Yes, karl. One thing I have learned in my time here at GMG is that it is never unwise to be polite and not assume anything.  :)

I hope you have Spoitfy, MOG, or the like, as they will give you a chance to sample before buying.

Do you think you'd like the more emotional approach or a more objective one?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2012, 05:34:06 AM
Either, depending on my mood : )  Although I don't think of Kempff as necessarily lacking aught, I don't mind the idea of a contrasting approach.  I can be something of a mixer . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 05:38:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2012, 05:34:06 AM
Either, depending on my mood : )  Although I don't think of Kempff as necessarily lacking aught, I don't mind the idea of a contrasting approach.  I can be something of a mixer . . . .

Sure, I'd say that Gulda would be the best contrast (and one of the cheapest options, too.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 13, 2012, 05:39:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2012, 05:27:05 AM
I certainly did not mean to restrict the question to our esteemd Todd
Kovacevich for spunk, Goode for classical restraint and beauty. Goode's complete set and some of Kovacevich's single issues are available via Mog.

I like Mog. Thanks to it and other web music sources I almost never buy recordings these days without hearing them first. This practice, however, seems to have increased, not decreased, the number of purchases I make.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 05:48:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
Just 30. The two op.49s are missing. I haven't read the complete liner notes yet. Perhaps there is an explanation why she didn't record them. I'll check it out. Why EMI calls this Complete Piano Sonatas on the cover is anyone's guess. Well, it does read better than Almost Complete Piano Sonatas  ;D

;D :D ;D   Without having checked her out personally, I think I'm still safe in saying she is really a woman. The instances of the use of he/his on the back cover all refer to Beethoven.

Unfortunately, no. All it says is: Recorded VII-VIII.2011, Faller Hall, La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland
Sarge

1.) Thanks!

2.) "...HJ Lim has curated his complete Piano Sonatas into eight themes..." confused me.

3.) recording dates as you gave me were all I needed! Not bad, banging them out in under two months.

4.) Karl: Gulda, Brautigam (not yet a set), Goode, Arrau I, Backhaus II are all sufficiently different from Kempff II and all pretty darn good. (And then there are others, which are mostly just different, and plenty I've never heard.) My survey, which I've just updated (and will continue to update this week, can be viewed here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Beethoven%20Sonata%20Survey?max-results=100 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Beethoven%20Sonata%20Survey?max-results=100)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 13, 2012, 05:51:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
Todd:

Do you know (of) the Russian (Soviet?) collective set with, among others, Pavel Egorov, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Vladimir Shakin, Galina Sandovskaya, Dmitri Efimov, and Igor Lebedev??


No, I've not seen that set.  The idea of multiple pianists doesn't really work for me.



Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
Anyone:

Ikuyo Nakamichi   2003-2006

Takahiro Sonoda I   1968-1969



Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2012, 04:15:27 AMTodd, I have the Kempff stereo set, which I enjoy just fine (and often more than just fine).  If I wanted to go so far as to fetch in a second, which set(s) would you recommend as possibilities? TIA


Friedrich Gulda (the Amadeo from 1967), Annie Fischer, or Wilhelm Backhaus, in that order. 

If it must be modern, Peter Takacs or Craig Sheppard.  (Wait for a few months and the answer here is Francois Frederic Guy.)  These all offer a nice degree of contrast.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 06:07:24 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 13, 2012, 05:51:14 AM

Ikuyo Nakamichi   2003-2006

Takahiro Sonoda I   1968-1969


Many thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 06:07:32 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 05:48:48 AM
3.) recording dates as you gave me were all I needed! Not bad, banging them out in under two months.

It probably explains why her tempi are so fast. She had to get the job done quickly  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 06:08:53 AM
Now playing:

Opus 2, Gulda, Brilliant Classics.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2012, 06:14:21 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 06:08:53 AM
Now playing:

Opus 2, Gulda, Brilliant Classics.

So is this the same set (plus concerti) under different cover, George?

[asin]B000BQV52A[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 06:18:20 AM
Correct, karl.

I am not sure if it was remastered, but I haven't heard any bad things about the sound on that one. (and the price on that third party seller is excellent, less than $37? I paid $49 for mine and it didn't have the concertos) The Brilliant issue seems to have gone OOP.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 06:25:02 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 06:18:20 AM
Correct, karl.
I am not sure if it was remastered, but I haven't heard any bad things about the sound on that one.

Re-checking the sound now. Spot checked several discs. Sounds fine. Buy with confidence, Karl.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 06:25:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 06:25:02 AM
Re-checking the sound now. Spot checked several discs. Sounds fine. Buy with confidence, Karl.

Sarge

Our Karl is in for a treat!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on June 13, 2012, 06:30:08 AM
I have a single disc from that cycle (opp. 13, 28, 53, 54), and the sound quality is good, and playing a lot better. € 19.99 at Amazon Spain that box.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 06:41:41 AM
The Backhaus set has never been cheaper:

http://www.amazon.com/Decca-Beethoven-Sonatas/dp/B000E0LB7C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339598429&sr=8-1

$29.31 new!!  :o (I paid three times that)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 13, 2012, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 06:18:20 AM
Correct, karl.

I am not sure if it was remastered, but I haven't heard any bad things about the sound on that one.

It does say "Neues Remastering". Every box of that German Eloquence series has that rather controversial ASMI logo. Some don't mind it, others berate it (the remastering, not the logo :D), as you may already know. Just this afternoon, I was going through a couple of Usenet discussions on it (both involving a certain M Forever!).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 07:05:20 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 13, 2012, 07:01:01 AM
It does say "Neues Remastering". Every box of that German Eloquence series has that rather controversial ASMI logo. Some don't mind it, others berate it (the remastering, not the logo :D), as you may already know. Just this afternoon, I was going through a couple of Usenet discussions on it (both involving a certain M Forever!).

There's a blast from the past!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 07:30:15 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 06:41:41 AM
The Backhaus set has never been cheaper:

Backhaus, stereo (mostly) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E0LB7C/goodmusicguide-20)

$29.31 new!!  :o (I paid three times that)

What a gorgeous set. Among the olden goldies, my favorite.

Among the newer ones, I actually prefer Oppitz  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001OPUWSU/nectarandambr-20)over Lewis & Schiff.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 13, 2012, 07:32:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 07:30:15 AM
What a gorgeous set. Among the olden goldies, my favorite.

Since Decca has been reissuing everything under the sun, perhaps they will reissue his mono set, which I find to be a bit better than the stereo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 07:32:22 AM
Since Decca has been reissuing everything under the sun, perhaps they will reissue his mono set, which I find to be a bit better than the stereo.

I've never heard it... only of it. Last seen in Italy (Decca Italy has a mind of its own). Am very intrigued, but aware that some of its quality may  be due to the myth that solid OOP endows a recording with. I do, however, like mono-Kempff better, on average... more playful. (However mono-Walcha, in Bach, is decidedly not better.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 13, 2012, 07:50:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 07:30:15 AM
What a gorgeous set. Among the olden goldies, my favorite.

Among the newer ones, I actually prefer Oppitz  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001OPUWSU/nectarandambr-20)over Lewis & Schiff.

I agree about the Backhaus, I haven't heard the Schiff or Paul Lewis's set but also like the Oppitz very much. 

It is an exciting time for Beethoven sonata sets what with so many new recordings to choose from - new completed sets as well as ones in progress such as Jonathan Biss, F.F. Guy and Stewart Goodyear.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 13, 2012, 07:51:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 07:47:18 AMAm very intrigued, but aware that some of its quality may  be due to the myth that solid OOP endows a recording with.



The quality in this case has to do with the playing, not the availability.  When I bought my copy, it was readily available in Europe and Japan, and the stereo set was hard to find.  The mono has all of Backhaus' traits, with better execution.  Alas, the sound is not as good and is bass shy. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 13, 2012, 08:18:33 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:28:33 PM

Todd:

Do you know (of) the Russian (Soviet?) collective set with, among others, Pavel Egorov, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Vladimir Shakin, Galina Sandovskaya, Dmitri Efimov, and Igor Lebedev??


I am not Todd, but I own this set (as you can read in reply 838 of this very thread). Of course the set is uneven, but to be fair many of the sets made by only one pianist are uneven too. Most of the pianists of the Rusissian set play with weight and passion, and the distribution on different hands does not in the end detract from the set but results in some favorable variety.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 13, 2012, 08:18:33 AM
I am not Todd,

...no, but your response just as welcome. IT's just that Todd is the most obvious first choice for assuming "having" any LvB Sonata cycle.  ;)

Quotebut I own this set (as you can read in reply 838 of this very thread). Of course the set is uneven, but to be fair many of the sets made by only one pianist are uneven too. Most of the pianists of the Rusissian set play with weight and passion, and the distribution on different hands does not in the end detract from the set but results in some favorable variety.

Just available as single discs/sets (1-10), not a box, right?! (Bomba Piter)

Do you happen to have the recording dates (earliest and last)?

Brautigam Question:

Release of BIS-SACD-1362  (volume 1)
was in 2004. Is that also the recording date?

Release of BIS-SACD-1672 (volume 9, last with core sonatas)
was in 2010. Is that also the recording date?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 13, 2012, 09:20:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
...no, but your response just as welcome. IT's just that Todd is the most obvious first choice for assuming "having" any LvB Sonata cycle.  ;)
I have been a completist collector in this field for many years and own 57 sets, but in the last years I have concentrated more on my main field of interest: Baroque keyboard music.

Quote from: jlaurson
Just available as single discs/sets (1-10), not a box, right?! (Bomba Piter)
Got the set about five years ago from a local dealer in Denmark in ten individual jewel cases (label: Audiophile classics DDD).

Quote from: jlaurson
Do you happen to have the recording dates (earliest and last)?
The exact recording dates are not published. The set is produced and mastered in St. Petersburg recording studio 1992.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 13, 2012, 01:21:00 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
Brautigam Question:

Release of BIS-SACD-1362  (volume 1)
was in 2004. Is that also the recording date?

Release of BIS-SACD-1672 (volume 9, last with core sonatas)
was in 2010. Is that also the recording date?

Vol I     was  recorded August 2003
Vol IX   was recorded August 2008

both at Österåker Kyrka, Sweden
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 10:22:52 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
Just 30. The two op.49s are missing. I haven't read the complete liner notes yet. Perhaps there is an explanation why she didn't record them. I'll check it out. Why EMI calls this Complete Piano Sonatas on the cover is anyone's guess. Well, it does read better than Almost Complete Piano Sonatas  ;D
Sarge

Now I can answer.
From EMI's PR helpers:

Quote...HJ wrote extensive essays on the pieces which are worth reading to fully understand her approach and interpretation.

Yes, HJ contends that Op. 49 nos. 1 & 2 were educational pieces and published against Beethoven's will.  She says Opus 2, No. 1 was always intended to be the first sonata so her set includes the 30 sonatas she believes complete Beethoven's intended output for the genre...

Quote from: (: premont :) on June 13, 2012, 01:21:00 PM
Vol I     was  recorded August 2003
Vol IX   was recorded August 2008
both at Österåker Kyrka, Sweden

Thanks, premont!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 02:42:22 AM
New, supplemental, installment to the (updated and to-be-further-updated) Beethoven Sonata Cycle Survey:


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Ronald Brautigam's BIS Cycle


(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/brautigam_beethoven_sonatas_3.png)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2012, 02:49:39 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2012, 10:22:52 PM
Now I can answer.
From EMI's PR helpers:

She did include an explanation in the liner notes. I just found it in Vol.II (which I hadn't previously read). It confirms what the PR folks told you.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 14, 2012, 06:46:21 AM
Yes, what did pianists like Gulda or Kempff or Backhaus or Gilels or Fischer know about Beethoven?  I'm glad Ms Lim is here to set things straight.  Henceforth, it is the 30!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 07:08:25 AM
Part 11 of the "Am I aware of a LvB Sonata Cycle Todd doesn't already own":

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h9YoNkR1bOg/T9n-InITN4I/AAAAAAAAChQ/PtJ-oPbk_1k/s1600/Peter_Roesel_Beethoven_Sonatas.jpg)
King Records (Japan)
Live recordings from Tokyo's Kioi Hall, made between 2008 and 2011.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 14, 2012, 07:09:32 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2012, 06:46:21 AM
Yes, what did pianists like Gulda or Kempff or Backhaus or Gilels or Fischer know about Beethoven?  I'm glad Ms Lim is here to set things straight.  Henceforth, it is the 30!

Nice, round figure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 14, 2012, 07:13:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 07:08:25 AM(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h9YoNkR1bOg/T9n-InITN4I/AAAAAAAAChQ/PtJ-oPbk_1k/s1600/Peter_Roesel_Beethoven_Sonatas.jpg)
King Records (Japan)
Live recordings from Tokyo's Kioi Hall, made between 2008 and 2011.



Hmm, it's done.  I've been waiting.  Now I can buy, at some point.  I'm taking the same approach with the Martin Roscoe cycle.

Looking at your list, I think you need to add Mejoueva (which I do own), as well as Kikuchi and Nodaira (which I do not yet own).

That's six cycles I need to order from Japan now.  Need to start pinching pennies as that will hurt given the current exchange rate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on June 14, 2012, 07:16:51 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2012, 06:46:21 AM
I'm glad Ms Lim is here to set things straight.  Henceforth, it is the 30!

Yes, especially considering how the current crop are full of conservative task-masters like Lang Lang, it is about time someone comes along to wake us up a bit!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DieNacht on June 14, 2012, 07:44:34 AM
Funny about Peter Rösel, I haven´t heard his Beethoven & mainly know him from his GDR period records, but he is one of the few pianists who as a rule really irritates me with his piano playing, very often phrasing contrary to what could be expected. Guess it is a sign of some originality of his, and perhaps he has done some good things too ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 14, 2012, 07:45:25 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2012, 06:46:21 AM
Yes, what did pianists like Gulda or Kempff or Backhaus or Gilels or Fischer know about Beethoven?  I'm glad Ms Lim is here to set things straight.  Henceforth, it is the 30!

To be fair, how many cycles include the "electoral" sonatas yet are labelled as "Complete"? Takacs, I think, but I don't know of any others--ah, reading Jen's post, I see Brautigam is exceptionally complete (supercomplete?).   And yet to be even more illogical,  some of them (Schiff, for example)  include the "Andante Favori".

Perhaps we can call Ms. Lim's set the "Incomplete Complete Sonatas".

I'm just suprised no one had come out with a Kabbalistic edition, equating each of the canonical 32 sonatas with its equivalent among the 32 Paths of the Tree of Life.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 14, 2012, 07:50:38 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 14, 2012, 07:45:25 AMTo be fair, how many cycles include the "electoral" sonatas yet are labelled as "Complete"?

Gilels was doing just that.  Brautigam is doing it.  Yokoyama recorded all piano works with opus numbers.  So there are a couple takes at more complete than complete.


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 14, 2012, 07:45:25 AMAnd yet to be even more illogical,  some of them include the "Andante Favori".

And now Bavouzet is including first drafts and second drafts of movements.  Could it be a new trend?


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 14, 2012, 07:45:25 AMI'm just suprised no one had come out with a Kabbalistic edition, equating each of the canonical 32 sonatas with its equivalent among the 32 Paths of the Tree of Life.


Give it time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 08:15:32 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2012, 07:13:37 AM


Hmm, it's done.  I've been waiting.  Now I can buy, at some point.  I'm taking the same approach with the Martin Roscoe cycle.

Looking at your list, I think you need to add Mejoueva (which I do own), as well as Kikuchi and Nodaira (which I do not yet own).

That's six cycles I need to order from Japan now.  Need to start pinching pennies as that will hurt given the current exchange rate.


Ichiro Nodaira,   1998 - ???? on Nami
I have on my Excel sheet (but not yet in the list).

Yusuke Kikuchi   on Triton isn't finished, is he?
Irina         Mejoueva                WAKA
i just read on your GMG entry IS finished...

also ongoing or finished without my knowing are:

Mari   Kodama         -      Pentatone
Maurizo   Pollini         -      DG
Mitsuko   Uchida         -      Philips / Decca
Angela   Hewitt         -      Hyperion
Michael   Korstick         -      Oehms
Igor   Tchetuev         -      Caro Mitis
Jonathan   Biss         -      Onyx
Stewart   Goodyear               Marquis Classics
Paavali Jumppanen               ?
Timothy   Ehlen   2009            Azica
Takahiro    Sonoda I    1968      -   1969   
François-Frédéric   Guy               ZigZag Territories
Takahiro    Sonoda II         -      
Ikuyo   Nakamichi   2003      -   2006   
Martin   Roscoe               Deux-Elles








(Up next are Lortie, Buchbinder, Lim, Roesel. Don't know whether I should include
Claudio Colombo, 2003-2011, Yamaha digital pianos, Claudio Colombo / Believe Digital --- for a while I thought he might be an Italian Joyce Hatto.)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 14, 2012, 08:23:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 08:15:32 AMYusuke Kikuchi on Triton isn't finished, is he?


Yes, I do believe so.  The fourth volume came out and it appears as though he got all of them on to eight CDs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 14, 2012, 08:47:02 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 08:15:32 AM

Ichiro Nodaira,   1998 - ???? on Nami
I have on my Excel sheet (but not yet in the list).

Yusuke Kikuchi   on Triton isn't finished, is he?
Irina         Mejoueva                WAKA
i just read on your GMG entry IS finished...

also ongoing or finished without my knowing are:

Mari   Kodama         -      Pentatone
Maurizo   Pollini         -      DG
Mitsuko   Uchida         -      Philips / Decca
Angela   Hewitt         -      Hyperion
Michael   Korstick         -      Oehms
Igor   Tchetuev         -      Caro Mitis
Jonathan   Biss         -      Onyx
Stewart   Goodyear               Marquis Classics
Paavali Jumppanen               ?
Timothy   Ehlen   2009            Azica
Takahiro    Sonoda I    1968      -   1969   
François-Frédéric   Guy               ZigZag Territories
Takahiro    Sonoda II         -      
Ikuyo   Nakamichi   2003      -   2006   
Martin   Roscoe               Deux-Elles








(Up next are Lortie, Buchbinder, Lim, Roesel. Don't know whether I should include
Claudio Colombo, 2003-2011, Yamaha digital pianos, Claudio Colombo / Believe Digital --- for a while I thought he might be an Italian Joyce Hatto.)

Bavouzet/Chandos has now started.  IIRC, vol. 2 will be issued next year, and vol. 3 will complete it in 2014. 

I thought Uchida limited herself mostly to a mini-cycle of the late sonatas (the two releases with the Avedon photographs on the cover), and Pollini have never committed to a complete cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 10:03:32 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 14, 2012, 08:47:02 AM
Bavouzet/Chandos has now started.  IIRC, vol. 2 will be issued next year, and vol. 3 will complete it in 2014. 

I thought Uchida limited herself mostly to a mini-cycle of the late sonatas (the two releases with the Avedon photographs on the cover), and Pollini have never committed to a complete cycle.

Got my eyes on Bavouzet. Makes sense re: Uchida; I'll ask her when I get the occasion. DG says they should have a complete cycle of Pollini-LvB by 2015/16.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2012, 02:49:39 AM
She did include an explanation in the liner notes. I just found it in Vol.II (which I hadn't previously read). It confirms what the PR folks told you.

Sarge

I am reading those liner notes now with the same embarrassment that I read some of my impetuous, ambitious, but ultimately awful college essays when I come across one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 14, 2012, 12:05:27 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 14, 2012, 07:09:32 AM
Nice, round figure.

It's always the booty with you, isn't it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 14, 2012, 12:24:20 PM
Quote from: George on June 14, 2012, 12:05:27 PM
It's always the booty with you, isn't it?

(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/icon_clap.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 14, 2012, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 14, 2012, 12:24:20 PM
(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/icon_clap.gif)

0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 14, 2012, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 14, 2012, 07:45:25 AM
To be fair, how many cycles include the "electoral" sonatas yet are labelled as "Complete"? Takacs, I think, but I don't know of any others--ah, reading Jen's post, I see Brautigam is exceptionally complete (supercomplete?).   And yet to be even more illogical,  some of them (Schiff, for example)  include the "Andante Favori".


Jando also does the electoral sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 14, 2012, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 14, 2012, 01:13:12 PM
Jando also does the electoral sonatas.

I feel like the incomplete Gilels does too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 14, 2012, 01:35:25 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 14, 2012, 01:24:31 PM
I feel like the incomplete Gilels does too.

You feel correctly. And the Eroica Variations, too. (The Variations are so excellent... totally underrated. I would drop a few sonatas for them, if I had to trade.)


FYI: Beethoven Sonata Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Beethoven%20Sonata%20Survey) Somewhat updated and re-ordered.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on June 14, 2012, 04:19:37 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 14, 2012, 01:24:31 PM
I feel like the incomplete Gilels does too.

Only two of the three.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2012, 04:56:41 AM
Quote from: George on June 13, 2012, 06:18:20 AM
Correct, karl.

I am not sure if it was remastered, but I haven't heard any bad things about the sound on that one. (and the price on that third party seller is excellent, less than $37? I paid $49 for mine and it didn't have the concertos) The Brilliant issue seems to have gone OOP.

Thanks for your help, George! I've gone ahead and pulled the ol' trigger . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 15, 2012, 05:00:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 15, 2012, 04:56:41 AM
Thanks for your help, George! I've gone ahead and pulled the ol' trigger . . . .

Awesome!  :)

And good morning!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2012, 05:03:19 AM
Happy Friday, my friend!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 15, 2012, 05:05:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 15, 2012, 05:03:19 AM
Happy Friday, my friend!

Indeed it is! And same to you. Hope you got that nice, dry, 75 degree weather we have over here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2012, 05:06:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2012, 06:25:02 AM
Re-checking the sound now. Spot checked several discs. Sounds fine. Buy with confidence, Karl.

And warm thanks to you, Sarge, and to Dave & Todd as well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2012, 05:08:32 AM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2012, 05:05:16 AM
Indeed it is! And same to you. Hope you got that nice, dry, 75 degree weather we have over here.

Oh, but this is an exquisite morning! I cycled from the train station to the office . . . first time I've been on a bicycle in, oh, it has got to have been two decades.  I've been on a horse more recently than I had been on a bicycle!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 15, 2012, 05:10:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 15, 2012, 05:08:32 AM
Oh, but this is an exquisite morning! I cycled from the train station to the office . . . first time I've been on a bicycle in, oh, it has got to have been two decades.  I've been on a horse more recently than I had been on a bicycle!

Sounds wonderful! These are the days to treasure, the hot and sticky days will be upon us soon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 16, 2012, 08:20:35 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61-9WRUtkzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


The Frenchest Beethoven yet.  All throughout Jean Efflam Bavouzet's first volume, one hears as perfect an example of the French School of pianism as I can recall hearing.  Elegant doesn't adequately describe Bavouzet's approach.  It is also swift, light, clean as a whistle, and just downright pretty.  This is meant as high praise, I hasten to add; I'm rather fond of French pianism and pianists.  Also, Mr Bavouzet's discs arrived at the right time, offering a much needed alternative to HJ Lim's crude banging and flailing.  Crude is a word one could not apply to this set.

The threefer is a straight shot through the first ten sonatas.  No fussy programming here.  The first disc, devoted to the Op 2 sonatas, is good, clean, light fun.  Here the Frenchness stands out.  The playing is light in texture, with nary a notable loud note to be heard until the slow movement of 2/3, where the tolling left hand notes ring out most satisfyingly.  Bavouzet's clarity is tip-top shelf, and the clarity of the left hand playing is as obvious as David Allen Wehr's, but it's more refined and blends even better.  Sure, Bavouzet's elegant approach means that the ending movement of 2/1 lacks the fire of other readings, and youthful prankishness can be hard to find, or at least it's more understated than is often the case, but everything is so lovely, it's impossible to complain. 

The second disc opens with a comparatively breezy Op 7, moves on to a light, lithe Op 13, and ends with delightful Op 14 sonatas.  The only misgivings here would have to be with the Pathetique, which is not an especially intense reading.  Rather, it's a marvel of the classical style, delivered most elegantly.  I tend to prefer more romantic readings, or at least more intense ones, but make no mistake, this is superbly well done. 

The final disc covers the Op 10 sonatas, and everything is there to enjoy.  Perfectly controlled, swift ascending arpeggios in the opener of 10/1, and an energetic, meticulously played closer?  Check.  Delightful 10/2, with repeat in the final movement?  Check.  High energy 10/3, with hints of drama in the slow movement?  Check.  Bavouzet throws in not one but two extra tidbits from 10/1 – WoO 52 and a reconstructed original version of the Prestissimo.  Both are superbly played.

So, this is a most enjoyable first installment to yet another new Elveebee sonata cycle.  I was most eager to here this set so as to compare it to Francois Frederic Guy's masterful first volume of his cycle.  Guy's style is more my thing, but Bavouzet's opener makes me want to hear the rest of the cycle just as soon as possible. 

SOTA sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on June 16, 2012, 09:05:24 AM
I'm very happy with Michael Korstick's series on the Oehms label. His latest volume, which contains the Op. 106 "Hammerklavier," will raise a few eyebrows due to the rather fast outer movements (he actually follows the printed MM tempos) and the glacial tempo of the sublime Adagio, which clocks in at 28:42! Some may find his playing a bit aggressive, but he can play poetically, too. Oehms' SACD audio is superb.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JC5TLHAML._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2012, 09:18:50 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on June 16, 2012, 09:05:24 AM
I'm very happy with Michael Korstick's series on the Oehms label. His latest volume, which contains the Op. 106 "Hammerklavier," will raise a few eyebrows due to the rather fast outer movements (he actually follows the printed MM tempos) and the glacial tempo of the sublime Adagio, which clocks in at 28:42!

Listened to clips at Amazon. You can leave the room and go brew a pot of tea between some of the chords in that Adagio ;D  He's faster than Lim in the first movement but he sounds cleaner. I may have to get this.

By the way, his the next volume (vol.11) has been released, at least in Germany. Contains 109, 110, 111.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 16, 2012, 09:28:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2012, 09:18:50 AM
Listened to clips at Amazon. You can listen to HJ Lim's complete Op 27 between some of the chords in that Adagio ;D

fixed ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2012, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 16, 2012, 09:28:33 AM
fixed ;)

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 16, 2012, 10:40:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2012, 09:18:50 AMBy the way, his the next volume (vol.11) has been released, at least in Germany. Contains 109, 110, 111.



Excellent, maybe Oehms will box up the set soon.  I've got two volumes, and based on those I'm not interested in the expense of buying all of them one at a time.  A discounted box, on the other hand . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 17, 2012, 02:34:17 PM
Subjecting myself to her Opp 27/2 and 79, I can't help thinking: god, HJ Lim must be terrible in bed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on June 17, 2012, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2012, 09:18:50 AM
Listened to clips at Amazon. You can leave the room and go brew a pot of tea between some of the chords in that Adagio ;D  He's faster than Lim in the first movement but he sounds cleaner. I may have to get this.

By the way, his the next volume (vol.11) has been released, at least in Germany. Contains 109, 110, 111.

Sarge

He makes it work...there's almost a suspended sense of time when listening to it. Good news about Vol.11--can hardly wait! (I'm in the US.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 18, 2012, 04:49:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 17, 2012, 02:34:17 PM
Subjecting myself to her Opp 27/2 and 79, I can't help thinking: god, HJ Lim must be terrible in bed.
:o 

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 18, 2012, 06:22:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 17, 2012, 02:34:17 PM
Subjecting myself to her Opp 27/2 and 79, I can't help thinking: god, HJ Lim must be terrible in bed.

......while in an alternate universe the Lim posse is doing a victory dance over your grave....



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 18, 2012, 06:31:18 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 18, 2012, 06:22:08 AM
......while in an alternate universe the Lim posse is doing a victory dance over your grave....

That's the thing that shocked me: there have been glowing reviews in the NY Times and Telegraph, and Amazon's reviewers love it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 06:33:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2012, 06:31:18 AMthere have been glowing reviews in the NY Times and Telegraph, and Amazon's reviewers love it.


I've not read the Times or Telegraph reviews, but any online shop (Amazon, HMV, et al) that has reviews will invariably have glowing reviews.  Even the most atrocious recordings will garner some five star ratings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 18, 2012, 06:35:33 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2012, 06:31:18 AM
That's the thing that shocked me: there have been glowing reviews in the NY Times and Telegraph, and Amazon's reviewers love it.
Well there you have it! The NY Times is definitely in an alternate universe, and some of Amazon's reviewers are damned near perfect reverse barometers!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2012, 06:48:10 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2012, 06:31:18 AM
That's the thing that shocked me: there have been glowing reviews in the NY Times and Telegraph, and Amazon's reviewers love it.

The Beethoven piano sonatas has been an ongoing area of interest of mine for a long time and while not a "completest" I have accumulated probably two dozen or more complete sets and several more individual recordings, so the following comments are set in a fairly developed context.

While I would not recommend HJ Lim's set,   I also do not consider it a total failure.  There are aspects about her playing which I think work, and bring some thing new to these works.  Yes, she's sloppy in places, but so are others who are otherwise given high praise (Schnabel comes to mind).  And yes, her tempos and dynamic changes exaggerated.  These aspects by themselves are not enough to totally write off her set, at least to my way of thinking.

There is a there there.

I just wish she had waited a bit longer before committing these works to a well publicized complete cycle, and it may be that she will revisit them later.  Daniel Baremboim also recorded a complete set as a young pianist, 25 I think, and was criticized for his perceived excesses when they first came out.  He went on the record them three more times, and upon reflection I find his first set very good after all.

Arguably, Lim is no Barenboim - but I'll refrain from heaping opprobrium upon her and rather applaud her gumption in taking the bull by the horns, so to speak and putting herself on the line.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 18, 2012, 06:54:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 06:33:29 AM

I've not read the Times or Telegraph reviews, but any online shop (Amazon, HMV, et al) that has reviews will invariably have glowing reviews.  Even the most atrocious recordings will garner some five star ratings.

Here's a quick roundup of all the reviews I've been able to find.

NYT review (live concert: Opp 106, 109) (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/arts/music/h-j-lim-performs-piano-sonatas-at-le-poisson-rouge.html)
"An idiosyncratic player with plenty of original ideas and the technique to carry them out, Ms. Lim has devoted considerable time to studying not only the works themselves but also Beethoven biographies and letters and other historical materials."
"A physically exuberant player, Ms. Lim tossed back her long, untied hair during more tumultuous moments and played with expressive commitment and colorful nuance throughout both sonatas. The overall arc and momentum sometimes felt distorted, but Ms. Lim's intellectual analysis and emotional engagement resulted in fresh, vigorous interpretations."

BBC Music Magazine: (http://www.harrisonparrott.com/artist/profile/hj-lim)
"it's perhaps appropriate that the most successful recordings here should be of the fast movements: the finale of No.10 goes like the wind and that of Sonata No.4, Op.7 keeps a lovely balance between hell-for-leather speed and delicately sprung rubato, while its opening movement has a wonderfully fast-flowing urgency. Some of the quirkier movements are joyfully characterised, and there are times when Lim's tone colour attains magnificence."

Kirk McElhearn, typically of MusicWeb but here on his blog: (http://www.mcelhearn.com/2012/05/21/hj-lims-beethoven-piano-sonata-cycle-do-you-get-what-you-pay-for/)
"Her tempi are noticeably faster than most pianists, and this gives the music a bit of a virtuosic sound, especially in movements with very fast runs like the scherzo of Sonata no. 10. Whether each listener appreciates these tempi is up to them..."
"What I find most disturbing about this set is the sound of the piano. It is a Yamaha CFX, and it sounds like Lin is playing on icicles. This harsh, thin, almost artificial sound, combined with the speed of the playing, makes this set sound very cold and distant. While the technique is there, I hear little emotion, as it seems that the goal here is to be flashy and flamboyant, rather than reflective."

Actual Pianist James Rhodes for the Telegraph: (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/jamesrhodes/100062524/musical-viagra-how-a-young-korean-pianist-made-me-fall-in-love-with-beethoven-all-over-again/)
"...the young Korean pianist H J Lim has trumped every recording I've heard with the first installment of her sonata cycle for EMI. This is playing that does everything one could possibly want and so much more – it is the musical equivalent of Viagra, restoring passion, lust and hunger for an old lover – something the classical music industry is desperately in need of.  It forces you to listen to this music as if for the very first time, rediscovering everything that is great about it – like being married for 30 years and suddenly one morning waking up and seeing your wife miraculously transformed back into the smoking hot 20-something you first met and remembering how impossibly lucky you are to be with her."
"This is the kind of album that will save the classical music recording industry. It's the kind of album I want to buy 20 of and hand out in the street to strangers.  It's the kind of album that, if you've never heard a Beethoven sonata before will convert you for life and ruin every other performance you'll hear."


-

Arnold, there have been intermittent moments that I have respected and even liked. But once I put on Guy, Brautigam, Gilels, et al, I can't go back to Lim.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:01:39 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 18, 2012, 06:48:10 AMYes, she's sloppy in places, but so are others who are otherwise given high praise (Schnabel comes to mind).



This comparison is not particularly valuable.  Sloppy Schnabel is orders of magnitude more insightful than Lim at her best. 

Lim's cycle is impetuous, yes, but it's also just juvenile in a way that other young pianists' LvB recordings were (and are) not.  Young Gulda showed hints of his future greatness, for instance.  Young Barenboim was grandiose, but never unconventional just to be unconventional, and he at least had the good sense to actually record all of the sonatas rather than just thirty.  Biss' EMI LvB is so much better than Lim's, it's hard to believe they were close to the same age when recording.  Yokoyama's complete cycle, while also sloppy at times, has a seriousness that Lim's lacks, and his studio single disc is serious and hefty.  Hell, even Alice Sara Ott's mediocre LvB is more serious and insightful.  Lim's cycle is Grrrl Power introduced to high art.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 18, 2012, 07:07:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:01:39 AM
Biss' EMI LvB is so much better than Lim's, it's hard to believe they were close to the same age when recording. 
Hmmm...I was quite impressed with Biss when I heard him a few years ago. Perhaps this could tempt me into a purchase...but first, let's see if Mog has his Beethoven!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DieNacht on June 18, 2012, 07:07:35 AM
The youtube Moonlight and Les Adieux are indeed weird and make the music hardly recognizable. But I´d rather explore that set than be bored by say the Øland recordings I know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:08:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2012, 06:54:12 AM
NYT review (live concert: Opp 106, 109) (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/arts/music/h-j-lim-performs-piano-sonatas-at-le-poisson-rouge.html)"An idiosyncratic player with plenty of original ideas and the technique to carry them out"


Kirk McElhearn, typically of MusicWeb but here on his blog: (http://www.mcelhearn.com/2012/05/21/hj-lims-beethoven-piano-sonata-cycle-do-you-get-what-you-pay-for/)
"Her tempi are noticeably faster than most pianists, and this gives the music a bit of a virtuosic sound, especially in movements with very fast runs like the scherzo of Sonata no. 10.


To me it doesn't sound like Lim quite has the technique to carry out her ideas, nor does she strike me as virtuosic in the same way that Gulda or Goodyear do, for instance. 


Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2012, 06:54:12 AM
Actual Pianist James Rhodes for the Telegraph: (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/jamesrhodes/100062524/musical-viagra-how-a-young-korean-pianist-made-me-fall-in-love-with-beethoven-all-over-again/)"
...the young Korean pianist H J Lim has trumped every recording I've heard with the first installment of her sonata cycle for EMI. This is playing that does everything one could possibly want and so much more – it is the musical equivalent of Viagra, restoring passion, lust and hunger for an old lover – something the classical music industry is desperately in need of.  It forces you to listen to this music as if for the very first time, rediscovering everything that is great about it – like being married for 30 years and suddenly one morning waking up and seeing your wife miraculously transformed back into the smoking hot 20-something you first met and remembering how impossibly lucky you are to be with her."


I wonder if perhaps he is influenced by the cover art a bit too much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:10:09 AM
Quote from: DieNacht on June 18, 2012, 07:07:35 AMBut I´d rather explore that set than be bored by say the Øland recordings I know.



Lim is at at about the same level as Øland to my ears; that is, bottom of the barrel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2012, 07:19:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:01:39 AM


This comparison is not particularly valuable.  Sloppy Schnabel is orders of magnitude more insightful than Lim at her best. 

Lim's cycle is impetuous, yes, but it's also just juvenile in a way that other young pianists' LvB recordings were (and are) not.  Young Gulda showed hints of his future greatness, for instance.  Young Barenboim was grandiose, but never unconventional just to be unconventional, and he at least had the good sense to actually record all of the sonatas rather than just thirty.  Biss' EMI LvB is so much better than Lim's, it's hard to believe they were close to the same age when recording.  Yokoyama's complete cycle, while also sloppy at times, has a seriousness that Lim's lacks, and his studio single disc is serious and hefty.  Hell, even Alice Sara Ott's mediocre LvB is more serious and insightful.  Lim's cycle is Grrrl Power introduced to high art.

I basically agree with your comments - however I can not help but feel that much of the harshest criticism of Lim is based on something other than musical criterion, and your "grrl power" comment reveals something of what I am referring to.  I don't mind at all that she only recorded 30 of the sonatas, and find that criticism a red herring. 

But, I vastly prefer Biss, and among of the newer recordings his is my current favorite - I like his playing better than Guy and the only other recording which rates as high in my estimation is Bavouzet, a far more experienced pianist.  I am eagerly awaiting more from Biss, but consider it a good sign that he plans to take a decade to complete the cycle of all sonatas.

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2012, 07:21:31 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:08:29 AM
I wonder if perhaps he is influenced by the cover art a bit too much.

I wonder if you aren't...but in the opposite way  ;D ;)

Edit: I see Arnold already suggested this.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:33:38 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 18, 2012, 07:19:01 AMI basically agree with your comments - however I can not help but feel that much of the harshest criticism of Lim is based on something other than musical criterion, and your "grrl power" comment reveals something of what I am referring to.  I don't mind at all that she only recorded 30 of the sonatas, and find that criticism a red herring. 



The Grrrl Power comment is basically no more than recognition that Ms Lim, her managers, and EMI are very consciously marketing this cycle partly on her gender, youth, and looks.  One literally has to be blind to not see this.  Her playing is impetuous, occasionally sloppy, not especially insightful (at best), and idiosyncratic just to be idiosyncratic.  Only recording thirty sonatas is another gimmick – see how thoughtful the young Ms Lim is!  I'd wager in ten years' time, let alone twenty or thirty or forty, her cycle will not be remembered as one of the greats on the market.  Keep in mind, that when I got her first volume, when that's all there was, that I was very interested to hear what she could do, and I had high hopes – as I do with every cycle.  Then I listened.




Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2012, 07:21:31 AMI wonder if you aren't...but in the opposite way




Not at all.  For instance, I own and enjoy Naida Cole's two Decca releases, and she is quite attractive.  I have a disc by Jitka Hosprová that I think highly of.  I enjoy pretty much every Veronique Gens recording I've heard.  Any insinuation that I dislike Ms Lim because of her looks is more than faintly ridiculous.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2012, 08:05:42 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:33:38 AM
I'd wager in ten years' time, let alone twenty or thirty or forty, her cycle will not be remembered as one of the greats on the market.

I don't know. Predicting the future is a fool's game. What we do know is that she's standing out from a very crowded field, making a name for herself. If she seriously pursues this career, who knows where it will lead. Gould was eccentric too.

But your question is beside the point for me. How many of the 60, 70? cycles that you own are going to be remembered or available twenty years from now? Does it matter? I'm not enjoying her cycle because I think it one for the ages. I'm enjoying it because it's fresh, exciting, and something very different from the dozen cycles I already own. And because it was dirt cheap  ;D  (Since she isn't my type, her cover photos played no part in my acquiring the set. If it had been priced like a normal new set, I wouldn't own it now. In fact, the main reason I bought it is because your review of the first volume convinced me it was the type of individual interpretation that would appeal to me. I thank you for that.)

QuoteAny insinuation that I dislike Ms Lim because of her looks is more than faintly ridiculous.

As is your insinuation that anyone liking Ms Lim (James Rhodes) is overly influenced by her looks. Works both ways, Todd.

But thank you for clearing up the doubts I had about your critical judgment. I didn't think you were one who based their likes or dislikes on physical appearance...but I was beginning to wonder.

Sarge

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 08:25:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2012, 08:05:42 AMIf she seriously pursues this career, who knows where it will lead. Gould was eccentric too.


Yes, he was.  However, his early Goldbergs are monumental, hinting at what he would become, whether one likes him or not.  Lim's Beethoven is not of that stature.


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2012, 08:05:42 AMBut your question is beside the point for me. How many of the 60, 70? cycles that you own are going to be remembered or available twenty years from now? Does it matter?


I get that that the question is beside the point, and that at least some cycles will fade into oblivion – though only about 10 or so historical cycles currently elude my grasp, which is pretty remarkable if you think about it, given how spread out they are in time.  But I do doubt that people will be exchanging comments on internet boards about the availability of Lim's cycle, and the best sounding versions, eighty years hence, the way they still do with Schnabel's.



Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2012, 08:05:42 AMAs is your insinuation that anyone liking Ms Lim (James Rhodes) is overly influenced by her looks. Works both ways, Todd.


Not really.  I've made no mention of Viagra anywhere (but, alas, here), or finding one's wife of 30 years suddenly the smoking hot gal she was in her 20s.  Mr Rhodes' comments strike me as both influenced by Ms Lim's looks, and maybe just a little bit sexist.  (I don't really care about the sexist nature of the comments, but I cannot help but notice.)  Stewart Goodyear's playing is at least as energetic as Ms Lim's.  I find it very hard to believe that most men would write something similar in reviewing his playing.  Maybe, maybe.  (Of course, merely acknowledging Grrrl Power and how it may be used for marketing purposes makes me sexist, too, right?  I mean, I'm the one trying to make a buck off Ms Lim's glamour shots.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2012, 08:27:57 AM
A recent, ~ 2005-2007, recording of the sonatas that is not that often mentioned, but deserves high praise is by Andras Schiff.  I was late to this party, but have beeen enjoying his playing very much since I began to listen to these discs.  As far as I know they have not been boxed up and are available as singles from ECM.

If I were asked about new complete cycles, I'd certainly include Schiff in the list.

His playing displays the best, according to my taste, of interpretative choices, clean, but not cold, transparent, but not light - and his technical command of the music is complete.  I am happy that the newer recordings of this music have rejected some of the traditional tempo choices from the past masters, and the younger pianists revisited the original markings, which generally lead to faster tempos - but Schiff does not use the tempo as a way to distinguish his set as I feel Goodyear or Lim, do.  I like his set better than Lewis', who comes across a bit tame in comparison.

Here's some comments from Schiff about this project:

QuoteSchiff has just come to the end of a project to record all Beethoven's piano sonatas for the ECM label, a project he put off for years until he felt he was ready.

"For me, these sonatas are the most stupendous journey. They give a complete picture of how Beethoven developed though his creative life."

Preparing these pieces meant first of all paying close attention to the text. Schiff found this could sometimes yield surprises. "Take the famous Moonlight Sonata," he says.

"Beethoven marks it 'senza sordino' [without mutes] throughout, and in piano music that means 'without dampers'. That blurs all the harmonies together, which at that date was a very bold thing to do, and most pianists shy away from it." But not this one.

Another example comes in Beethoven's most titanic piano sonata, the famous Hammerklavier.

"Many people say that the metronome mark of the opening movement is simply impossible, and there are quite a few other pianists, even great ones, who make it seem very heavy and turgid. But it's not impossible, it's just difficult."

Schiff has been around for a while, and ECM is not a traditional classical music label, so his set flew a bit under the radar.  It features ECM's generally very good recorded sound. 

:)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 08:33:31 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 18, 2012, 08:27:57 AMIf I were asked about new complete cycles, I'd certainly include Schiff in the list.



I wish I could.  Andras Schiff is one of my favorite living pianists, but he is generally just not a good fit for Beethoven for me.  As far I can recall, this set got mixed reviews from most sources.  That doesn't mean it's not good (for instance, I love Russell Sherman's cycle, but it has received a lot af bad reviews), but I think there are better recent cycles to suggest.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2012, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 08:33:31 AM


I wish I could.  Andras Schiff is one of my favorite living pianists, but he is generally just not a good fit for Beethoven for me.  As far I can recall, this set got mixed reviews from most sources.  That doesn't mean it's not good (for instance, I love Russell Sherman's cycle, but it has received a lot af bad reviews), but I think there are better recent cycles to suggest.

Judging by your review of Bavouzet, which was certainly complimentary, I still came away thinking we probably prefer different interpretative choices in performances of these works. 

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 08:43:59 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 18, 2012, 08:38:23 AMJudging by your review of Bavouzet, which was certainly complimentary, I still came away thinking we probably prefer different interpretative choices in performances of these works.




No doubt of that. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 18, 2012, 09:01:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 08:25:37 AM
Not really.  I've made no mention of Viagra anywhere (but, alas, here), or finding one's wife of 30 years suddenly the smoking hot gal she was in her 20s.  Mr Rhodes' comments strike me as both influenced by Ms Lim's looks, and maybe just a little bit sexist.  (I don't really care about the sexist nature of the comments, but I cannot help but notice.)

To be fair, though, that's simply how James Rhodes talks. He's not faking his "excitable common bloke saying wacky off-colour things" persona; that's simply who he is. It's pretty clear from videos of his talks about various composers, or from chatting with him on Twitter for that matter. This is a man who's compared various Beethoven sonatas to illegal drugs.

But certain, uh, physical characteristics have to be playing a role. I certainly don't believe that, had EMI gotten Andras Schiff to do a complete cycle on iTunes for $9.99, it would be selling so well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2012, 09:10:39 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2012, 09:01:54 AMThis is a man who's compared various Beethoven sonatas to illegal drugs.



That explains it.  He's a less erudite version of Benjamin Zander.

There are various male artists who get the glamour treatment, too - Anderszewski, Schuch, Yundi Li (or, now, just Yundi), Pahud, Dudamel to an extent - and I think it's ridiculous with them, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 18, 2012, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 18, 2012, 08:27:57 AM
A recent, ~ 2005-2007, recording of the sonatas that is not that often mentioned, but deserves high praise is by Andras Schiff.  I was late to this party, but have beeen enjoying his playing very much since I began to listen to these discs.  As far as I know they have not been boxed up and are available as singles from ECM.

<snip>

Schiff has been around for a while, and ECM is not a traditional classical music label, so his set flew a bit under the radar.  It features ECM's generally very good recorded sound. 
:)

For someone who doesn't think about multiple recordings of a piece or a body of work (apart from a few exceptions), I'm waiting for ECM to box them up. Have you heard his Guardian Lectures, Arnold? With them loaded in my iPod, I probably listen to the episodes as often as I do to Gulda (my only complete set). :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2012, 10:06:38 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 18, 2012, 09:10:43 AM
Have you heard his Guardian Lectures, Arnold? With them loaded in my iPod, I probably listen to the episodes as often as I do to Gulda (my only complete set). :)

I have not - but I read his interview about the Beethoven sonatas and found his comments very interesting - I will look for the lectures.

Thanks!

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 18, 2012, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 09:10:39 AM
That explains it.  He's a less erudite version of Benjamin Zander.

But with fewer pretensions, to match. He's just a rather weird silly bloke who plays piano for a living and doesn't act like anything higher or mightier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 18, 2012, 11:52:25 AM
Did he bring us one-buttock blogging?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on June 18, 2012, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 18, 2012, 11:52:25 AM
Did he bring us one-buttock blogging?

No. I believe he is between buttocks.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 18, 2012, 11:57:58 AM
Well played, Paul!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on June 18, 2012, 12:07:47 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2012, 07:33:38 AM


The Grrrl Power comment is basically no more than recognition that Ms Lim, her managers, and EMI are very consciously marketing this cycle partly on her gender, youth, and looks.  One literally has to be blind to not see this.  Her playing is impetuous, occasionally sloppy, not especially insightful (at best), and idiosyncratic just to be idiosyncratic. 

The above description of Lim's playing pretty much lines up with my own initial impressions.  Her pulling of tempos bugs me quite a bit and makes her sound rather sloppy.  Also, if she has great virtuosity, I haven't been able to discern it.  And when elegance is called for, Lim is a solid no-show.  For a wonderful mix of virtuosity, elegance and dignity, Richter can't be beat.  Anyways, I would predict that Lim's set will be deleted in a few years and unlikely to be reissued either.  I'm now going to play my Sherman set which is leagues above the Lim.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong about Lim's future.  I thought Lang Lang was a loser, and he seems to be the most popular classical pianist on the Planet.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2012, 03:07:26 PM
I was just noticing Kun-Woo Paik's incredible mastery (and awesome fortissimos!) in the old Liszt recording on Virgin, when I saw he has an LvB Cycle (Decca). Certainly, his fortissimos have been commented on by others,... what's the scoop on the Late Sonatas? No one seems to really have commented on them here yet. I did check! ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 18, 2012, 03:09:01 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 18, 2012, 03:07:26 PM
I was just noticing Kun-Woo Paik's incredible mastery (and awesome fortissimos!) in the old Liszt recording on Virgin, when I saw he has an LvB Cycle (Decca). Certainly, his fortissimos have been commented on by others,... what's the scoop on the Late Sonatas? No one seems to really have commented on them here yet. I did check! ;)

This is why an index of Todd's threads would be handy. Here are his comments on the full Paik cycle. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7021.msg165450.html#msg165450) ...Paikle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 18, 2012, 06:04:30 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 18, 2012, 07:07:01 AM
Hmmm...I was quite impressed with Biss when I heard him a few years ago. Perhaps this could tempt me into a purchase...but first, let's see if Mog has his Beethoven!

I ordered his Onyx CD over the weekend. 

And I like the Schiff cycle very much, which I bought individually as it came out.  It's worth not waiting for the box set, if ECM even does one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2012, 06:13:55 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2012, 03:09:01 PM
This is why an index of Todd's threads would be handy. Here are his comments on the full Paik cycle. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7021.msg165450.html#msg165450) ...Paikle?

haha,... ok, got it! Yea, it iS good to have Reviews. mm,... I'll just enjoy the Liszt. ;) 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 03:50:17 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 18, 2012, 06:04:30 PM

And I like the Schiff cycle very much, which I bought individually as it came out.  It's worth not waiting for the box set, if ECM even does one.


:) Good for you.

Although I must admit, what I have heard of the Schiff cycle (largely the earlier issues), I am more fond of the lectures than the performances which I somehow appreciate more in principle than actuality. Then again, I've not listened to Beethoven sonatas for a long time, which feels kind of good for the time being. When I'm back, I'll probably have to listen to whoever I have most recently received. And there's Lortie still to go through.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2012, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 03:50:17 AM

:) Good for you.

Although I must admit, what I have heard of the Schiff cycle (largely the earlier issues), I am more fond of the lectures than the performances which I somehow appreciate more in principle than actuality.

This was my exact experience.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 19, 2012, 05:59:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 03:50:17 AM
Although I must admit, what I have heard of the Schiff cycle (largely the earlier issues), I am more fond of the lectures than the performances which I somehow appreciate more in principle than actuality.

Quote from: George on June 19, 2012, 04:11:21 AM
This was my exact experience.

Hmm...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 06:22:55 AM
FYI Paavali Jumppanen Beethoven Cycle

Paavali Jumppanen ... has just recently finished the recordings for the Beethoven project.  The recordings were made at Kuhmo Art Center in Finland with Steinway & Sons D-model grand piano, serial number 512465.  Post production will take some time, and then label and the distribution details will be figured out & announced.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on June 19, 2012, 06:25:42 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 06:22:55 AM
label and the distribution details will be figured out

Exciting! ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:39:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 06:22:55 AMFYI Paavali Jumppanen Beethoven Cycle



This cycle excited me when I first read about it earlier this year.  Now that it's done, I'm more excited.  His Boulez disc is superb, and his LvB Violin Sonatas are even better.  I have high expectations for this one. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 08:10:50 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:39:59 AM

This cycle excited me when I first read about it earlier this year.  Now that it's done, I'm more excited.  His Boulez disc is superb, and his LvB Violin Sonatas are even better.  I have high expectations for this one.

I hope it'll be Ondine... fine label and they don't have a Beethoven Cycle yet.
Now that you mentioned his Boulez, I was reminded again of how much I enjoyed that, back when.
I think Jumppa was hand-picked to play them by Boulez or a friend of his.


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)

Dip Your Ears, No. 30a (Boulez, Piano Sonatas)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/pierre-boulez-piano-sonatas-1-3.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/pierre-boulez-piano-sonatas-1-3.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 19, 2012, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2012, 03:50:17 AM

:) Good for you.

Although I must admit, what I have heard of the Schiff cycle (largely the earlier issues), I am more fond of the lectures than the performances which I somehow appreciate more in principle than actuality. Then again, I've not listened to Beethoven sonatas for a long time, which feels kind of good for the time being. When I'm back, I'll probably have to listen to whoever I have most recently received. And there's Lortie still to go through.

It could be that I listened to the Hammerklavier first - which I find to be excellent.  And in reading some reviews this disc does get high marks.  But I have read some reservations about the earlier installments. 

But there does seem to be a disconnect with what I value and what others on GMG value in performances of Beethoven piano sonatas.  Being a Classical era buff, I prefer these works played as clearly from the Classical temperament and I am not interested in hearing Beethoven played as a Romantic composer.  What I look for firstly is scrupulous adherence to the printed score and markings and technical accuracy.  I much prefer a transparent and restrained approach to violent and stormy playing which comes across to me as exaggerated.

For others what I like strikes them as unimaginative or nothing special

John O'Conor rates very high on my list, but for many he is just an also-ran.

In any event, these works are good enough to withstand many different interpretations.

:)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2012, 09:38:34 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 19, 2012, 09:01:31 AM
It could be that I listened to the Hammerklavier first - which I find to be excellent.  And in reading some reviews this disc does get high marks.  But I have read some reservations about the earlier installments. 

But there does seem to be a disconnect with what I value and what others on GMG value in performances of Beethoven piano sonatas.  Being a Classical era buff, I prefer these works played as clearly from the Classical temperament and I am not interested in hearing Beethoven played as a Romantic composer.  What I look for firstly is scrupulous adherence to the printed score and markings and technical accuracy.  I much prefer a transparent and restrained approach to violent and stormy playing which comes across to me as exaggerated.

For others what I like strikes them as unimaginative or nothing special

John O'Conor rates very high on my list, but for many he is just an also-ran.

In any event, these works are good enough to withstand many different interpretations.

:)

I could have written this post.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 12:04:10 PM
Quote from: Arnold on June 19, 2012, 09:01:31 AM
there does seem to be a disconnect with what I value and what others on GMG value in performances of Beethoven piano sonatas.  Being a Classical era buff, I prefer these works played as clearly from the Classical temperament and I am not interested in hearing Beethoven played as a Romantic composer.  What I look for firstly is scrupulous adherence to the printed score and markings and technical accuracy.  I much prefer a transparent and restrained approach to violent and stormy playing which comes across to me as exaggerated.

In any event, these works are good enough to withstand many different interpretations.
So Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata didn't change between 1795 and 1922? And he was a model of dainty classical decorum with stories about him pounding pianos into toothpicks made up from whole cloth?

I think different pieces exhibit different characters and that no one approach equally suits all. I also think that different approaches may be equally valid regarding the same sonata. This strange way of thinking might explain why I like a number of different performers equally in these works (and other cycles, too).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 19, 2012, 12:16:42 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 12:04:10 PM
So Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata didn't change between 1795 and 1922?

LvB from beyond the grave! ; )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 19, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 12:04:10 PM
So Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata didn't change between 1795 and 1922? And he was a model of dainty classical decorum with stories about him pounding pianos into toothpicks made up from whole cloth?

I think different pieces exhibit different characters and that no one approach equally suits all. I also think that different approaches may be equally valid regarding the same sonata. This strange way of thinking might explain why I like a number of different performers equally in these works (and other cycles, too).

I of course do think that Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata changed and developed - but all that is reflected in the written score and markings (the crescendo under a whole note in the late sonatas notwithstanding). 

I simply prefer a performer who takes fewer liberties with these documentary facts.

And I too enjoy different performers playing these works, and do not think the "perfect" complete set exists, nor will ever exist.

:)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: Arnold on June 19, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
I of course do think that Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata changed and developed - but all that is reflected in the written score and markings (the crescendo under a whole note in the late sonatas notwithstanding). 

I simply prefer a performer who takes fewer liberties with these documentary facts.

And I too enjoy different performers playing these works, and do not think the "perfect" complete set exists, nor will ever exist.
Oh, good -- this gets us to the old "text as notational approximation" or "text as rigid mold" dispute. What do you think of Beethoven's metronome marking for the Hammerklavier's first movement?

I suspect that all of us simply apply different (and inconsistent!) standards to determine which degree of liberty/rigidity is desirable and which excessive. Ms Lim, for instance, seems to take excessive liberties according to the judgment of several GMGers -- yet other listeners seem to regard her approach as an overdue shattering of excessively rigid convention.

My own taste is variable. I used to regard the late Lenny's DGG recordings of Mahler and Sibelius symphonies to wallow in excessive emotionalism. Now I love them. Would I want them to be my only recordings? No. Does liking them prevent also liking Gielen or Vänskä? No.

Thus on some days I feel like hearing Goode play Beethoven. On others, Kovacevich suits better. And sometimes I'd rather hear Kempff. (But I think I'll pass on Ms Lim.) ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 01:21:01 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 01:03:17 PMyet other listeners seem to regard her approach as an overdue shattering of excessively rigid convention.



I've seen some similar comments, but it's not really true.  Russell Sherman and Eric Heidsieck, for instance, could never be described as rigid or conventional, yet both artists deliver Elveebee of a very high caliber, indeed.  It's impossible to say that Georges Pludermacher or Anton Kuerti are conventional, either.  Or Kempff, really.  Or Backhaus, for that matter.  Now that I think about it, what is conventional Beethoven?  No, the problem with Lim is that her LvB sucks.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 19, 2012, 01:46:13 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 01:03:17 PM
What do you think of Beethoven's metronome marking for the Hammerklavier's first movement?

I think that it is faster than how many pianists play.  The difference in Schnabel and Kempff is striking.  Kempff was not alone, most of the pianists of his generation took to playing the first movement in a magisterial fashion that I don't find as pleasing as closer to Beethoven's mark.  Happily most younger pianists reflect an intention to take Beethoven's tempo.

Quote from: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 01:03:17 PM
I suspect that all of us simply apply different (and inconsistent!) standards to determine which degree of liberty/rigidity is desirable and which excessive.

Speaking for myself, I prefer a performance which does not depart dramatically from the available evidence of how the work was conceived and meant to be played.  Much of that evidence is found in the score and other documentary evidence that survives from the period.  There is still a wide latitude available for performers to make choices. 

Quote from: DavidRoss on June 19, 2012, 01:03:17 PM

Thus on some days I feel like hearing Goode play Beethoven. On others, Kovacevich suits better. And sometimes I'd rather hear Kempff.

Sure.

:)

Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 01:21:01 PM
Now that I think about it, what is conventional Beethoven?

"Conventional" is not a word that comes to mind when when thinking about my "ideal".  But I can say that someone like Russell Sherman or George Pludermacher is not it.

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/51/0/0/569.jpg)


Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/51/0/0/569.jpg)


Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?

Buy the set and throw your leftovers on this site for a fire sale?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2012, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/51/0/0/569.jpg)


Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?

I've got none of them. So:
1. Buy?
2. Did he simply not record the missing sonatas? I'm particularly sad over the absence of 17-20, 25, and 27...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:08:27 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 05:59:36 PMBuy the set and throw your leftovers on this site for a fire sale?


A possibility.  (My 'to sell'/'discard' piles have grown large.  Action may be needed.)



Quote from: Brian on June 19, 2012, 05:59:55 PM
I've got none of them. So:
1. Buy?
2. Did he simply not record the missing sonatas? I'm particularly sad over the absence of 17-20, 25, and 27...


Your situation is very easy: Buy.  Serkin never recorded all of the sonatas, though he did record some of them multiple times.  Personally, I'd love one box of all his recordings, rather like Gould, etc. 

Serkin is one of the greatest Beethoven pianists.  Buy with confidence.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2012, 06:12:32 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:08:27 PMYour situation is very easy: Buy.  Serkin never recorded all of the sonatas, though he did record some of them multiple times.  Personally, I'd love one box of all his recordings, rather like Gould, etc. 

Serkin is one of the greatest Beethoven pianists.  Buy with confidence.

Thanks. I get a little sad face :(  when a great Beethoven pianist won't record all of Op 31, but okay - instant purchase it shall be, when it's released.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:19:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 19, 2012, 06:12:32 PMThanks. I get a little sad face :(  when a great Beethoven pianist won't record all of Op 31


Me too, but with Serkin it doesn't matter.  His is heavy-duty, serious, no frilly bullshit Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2012, 06:27:33 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:19:04 PM

Me too, but with Serkin it doesn't matter.  His is heavy-duty, serious, no frilly bullshit Beethoven.

Since I've been listening to HJ Lim, I need that, fast.

(Well, not badly... any time I put on Lim, I have Gilels at hand for an immediate antidote.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:29:50 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:08:27 PM

A possibility.  (My 'to sell'/'discard' piles have grown large.  Action may be needed.)




Your situation is very easy: Buy.  Serkin never recorded all of the sonatas, though he did record some of them multiple times.  Personally, I'd love one box of all his recordings, rather like Gould, etc. 

Serkin is one of the greatest Beethoven pianists.  Buy with confidence.

Kind of makes it cool that he did not.  Chose the ones that he wanted to nail and did just that.  It would be neat to find an interview of why he skipped some, or maybe he was never asked and really did not care. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2012, 06:30:00 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/51/0/0/569.jpg)


Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?

Where do you see that set listed? I don't see it listed anywhere. I wonder if it's all stereo recordings (likely.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2012, 06:34:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 19, 2012, 06:27:33 PM
Since I've been listening to HJ Lim, I need that, fast.

(Well, not badly... any time I put on Lim, I have Gilels at hand for an immediate antidote.)

I'd say grab all the mono Serkin you can find, as it is noticeably better than his stereo recordings. I posted info here about where to get them: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10878.0.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2012, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:29:50 PM
Kind of makes it cool that he did not.  Chose the ones that he wanted to nail and did just that.

Yup, just like Richter.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:35:09 PM
Quote from: George on June 19, 2012, 06:34:04 PM
I'd say grab all the mono Serkin you can find, as it is noticeably better than his stereo recordings. I posted info here about where to get them: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10878.0.html

That mono stuff is beautiful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:36:19 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:29:50 PMIt would be neat to find an interview of why he skipped some, or maybe he was never asked and really did not care.


He was never a completist in anything.  Didn't need or want to be.  This appears to be a pretty extensive discography. (http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/Serkin/discography-serkin.htm)  You can see all the holes.  I just want all the recordings. 

I must say that one of my favorite anecdotes about the young Serkin has to do with when he played a recital and asked what encore to play, and someone suggested the Goldbergs, which he proceeded to play.  Only a handful of people were left in the audience, including, if memory serves, Schnabel.  It may be a false story for all I know, but it is a good one.


Quote from: George on June 19, 2012, 06:30:00 PMWhere do you see that set listed? I don't see it listed anywhere. I wonder if it's all stereo recordings (likely.)


HMV Japan, though it will be available everywhere soon enough.

I agree that the mono recordings tend to be better, but the stereo ones are still better than most other pianists' recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2012, 06:38:05 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:36:19 PMI must say that one of my favorite anecdotes about the young Serkin has to do with when he played a recital and asked what encore to play, and someone suggested the Goldbergs, which he proceeded to play.  Only a handful of people were left in the audience, including, if memory serves, Schnabel.  It may be a false story for all I know, but it is a good one.

Indeed.

QuoteHMV Japan, though it will be available everywhere soon enough.

Ok, cool. And I assume it will be dirt cheap.

QuoteI agree that the mono recordings tend to be better, but the stereo ones are still better than most other pianists' recordings.

In most cases, I agree.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2012, 06:44:19 PM
This raises an interesting discussion question.

If you were possessed of Serkinesque/Richteresque powers, which sonatas would you not record?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2012, 06:45:13 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 19, 2012, 06:44:19 PM
This raises an interesting discussion question.

If you were possessed of Serkinesque/Richteresque powers, which sonatas would you not record?

I'd want to give them all a go myself.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:46:28 PM
I still need to get the second set of the Festival at Prades stuff....really enjoy the mixture of composers and pieces.  On this follow up set, he plays No. 30, which I believe is the only LvB piano sonata he performed or was recorded by him during the festivals.  The first set is duo and trio performances.  Here is a shot of the second set.  Either way, Serkin nuts need to have both sets!

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/924287.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:47:47 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 19, 2012, 06:44:19 PMIf you were possessed of Serkinesque/Richteresque powers, which sonatas would you not record?


WoO 47.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:54:52 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 06:36:19 PM


I must say that one of my favorite anecdotes about the young Serkin has to do with when he played a recital and asked what encore to play, and someone suggested the Goldbergs, which he proceeded to play.  Only a handful of people were left in the audience, including, if memory serves, Schnabel.  It may be a false story for all I know, but it is a good one.




Here are the Goldbergs....are these on disc?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-6snjPjBtA
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2012, 07:02:47 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:54:52 PMHere are the Goldbergs....are these on disc?


The discography lists it on Archiphon.  I've not seen it.  (The Peter Serkin recording is readily available, though.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 07:11:12 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 19, 2012, 07:02:47 PM

The discography lists it on Archiphon.  I've not seen it.  (The Peter Serkin recording is readily available, though.)

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=1420625
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2012, 07:12:46 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 06:54:52 PM
Here are the Goldbergs....are these on disc?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-6snjPjBtA

His Diabellis are awesome!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 07:19:54 PM
I would be interested to see a list of performers that recorded the majority of the sonatas (this keeps Serkin in the conversation) in mono, and how you would rank them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 19, 2012, 08:12:41 PM
Quote from: George on June 19, 2012, 07:12:46 PM
His Diabellis are awesome!

I have these two CDs, both now apparently OOP.
[asin]B00064AELA[/asin]
[asin]B0000AH3EL[/asin]

Don't know how the sonata CD fits in, or does not fit in, with the new box.

Recording dates for the sonatas  8 June 1976 12 January 1971 March 15-16 1967 resoectively,  all recorded in New York
Recording dates for the Diabellis 3-5 September 1957 at Marlboro VT
Recording dates for the Op. 119 16-18 February 1966 in New York
Recording dates for the Op. 71 7 October and 14-15 October 1970 in New York

The liner notes to the sonata CD seem to say he scheduled, then cancelled (on the grounds that he simply wasn't ready enough to perform them all in public), a series of eight performances at Carnegie Hall in which he would have played the entire cycle.  That was to have been spread out over the period October 1970 to May 1971.  (The notes are not the most clearly written things.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 20, 2012, 07:05:49 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 19, 2012, 07:19:54 PMI would be interested to see a list of performers that recorded the majority of the sonatas (this keeps Serkin in the conversation) in mono, and how you would rank them.



There aren't too terribly many.  (It was covered before, incidentally. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=12835.0))  I believe Kurt Applebaum may have also recorded a good chunk, though I've not heard any.  In the days of mono, complete or near-complete cycles were exceedingly rare.



Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 19, 2012, 08:12:41 PMDon't know how the sonata CD fits in, or does not fit in, with the new box.


I'm guessing they're in the new set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 20, 2012, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 20, 2012, 07:05:49 AM


There aren't too terribly many.  (It was covered before, incidentally. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=12835.0))  I believe Kurt Applebaum may have also recorded a good chunk, though I've not heard any.  In the days of mono, complete or near-complete cycles were exceedingly rare.


Right.  How about a top three mono LvB sonata disc list then.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2012, 03:17:10 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 20, 2012, 01:35:31 PM
Right.  How about a top three mono LvB sonata disc list then.

(complete ones:)
Kempff I (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000012XC/nectarandambr-20), Backhaus I, Schnabel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005V439/nectarandambr-20)


optional: Nat, Gulda I (which has a few stereo bits in it) [edit: Gulda 0]

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

I'd second the Solomon mentioned below, if completeness is not the issue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 20, 2012, 05:21:38 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2012, 03:17:10 PM
Kempff I (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000012XC/nectarandambr-20), Backhaus I, Schnabel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005V439/nectarandambr-20)


optional: Nat, Gulda I (which has a few stereo bits in it)


A good list, though the true Gulda I (on Orfeo) is superior to the Decca.

As to three individual releases in mono, some I've enjoyed include:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PTXGBAWKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)   

(http://musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD1141.jpg)   

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xJ6xG4UYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 20, 2012, 06:10:44 PM
There's this, available in a number of incarnations.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XJWjF5lbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

...and how could we ignore these?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DkI6UzHtL._AA160_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G1jG2k2ZL._AA160_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51t7ExJZjnL._AA160_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ByKARAxAL._AA160_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XDCTmzojL._AA160_.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 20, 2012, 06:45:55 PM
Thanks!  Just waiting for George's list, which he has probably typed out for me a gazillion times. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2012, 12:15:50 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 20, 2012, 05:21:38 PM

A good list, though the true Gulda I (on Orfeo) is superior to the Decca.

Blimey! Nearly forgot about the "Gulda 0" cycle. First page of LvB-Sonata-Survey updated (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html) accordingly.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 21, 2012, 01:40:31 AM
Goodyears complete set now available at marquis classics foe $55. Please wait a few days while my order clears.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 21, 2012, 06:39:13 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 20, 2012, 06:45:55 PM
Thanks!  Just waiting for George's list, which he has probably typed out for me a gazillion times. ;D

I am only going to recommend one, as I feel it is that essential - Josef Hofmann Vol 6, The Casimir Hall recital (not all Beethoven, but it has two outstanding sonata performances.) It's on the Marston label.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 21, 2012, 06:52:24 AM
Quote from: Fred on June 21, 2012, 01:40:31 AMGoodyears complete set now available at marquis classics foe $55. Please wait a few days while my order clears.



I just don't think waiting is an option for some.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2012, 06:57:02 AM
Quote from: Fred on June 21, 2012, 01:40:31 AM
Goodyears complete set now available at marquis classics foe $55. Please wait a few days while my order clears.

No problem; I can wait indefinitely.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 21, 2012, 08:03:44 AM
For mono apart from Schnabel and Serkin I like Edwin Fischer and Elly Ney most. And Sofronitsky if he was recorded in mono, I'm not sure.

A notch below for me is Rubinstein and Hoffman and Gieseking. I have never heard the Horszowski but it could well be fun.

Has anyone explored Horowitz? (I haven't.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DieNacht on June 21, 2012, 09:37:35 AM
You probably like Yudina overall as well ?

Among the mono recordings I´ve got some

Frederic Lamond,
Ignaz Friedman,
Eduard Kilenyi,
Horowitz,
Edwin Fischer,
Victor Schiøler,
Guiomar Novaes,
Harold Bauer,
Kempff,
Gieseking,
Egon Petri,
Friedrich Wührer,
Samuil Feinberg,
Schnabel,
Serkin and
Solomon,
but many of them I haven´t explored so much in depth.

Somehow Richter, Gilels, Yudina, Gould, Schnabel, Beveridge Webster, Kovacevich, Kempff and Kuerti have been the biggest names for me so far.

Lamond is very vintage and can occasionally be interesting, but his style was rather sketchy. There are many recordings on you-tube.

I remember Friedman as interesting in Sonata 14, but the sound is poor.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 21, 2012, 10:48:17 AM
Yudina's Op. 111 gets my second vote, Bill.

Third vote goes to Gilels's Appassionata in the green Brilliant set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2012, 12:20:37 PM
Now marathoning Op 31/1 in this order: HJ Lim, Jeno Jando, Ronald Brautigam, Stewart Goodyear. Chosen to provide evidence for the assertion that you can be assertive and exciting without being as crass as HJ Lim.

EDIT;

Post #10,000
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 21, 2012, 12:42:15 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gX3jPOmyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

My nomination for the most fun Beethoven sonata CD ever recorded. Sorry, Bill, this one's in stereo.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2012, 01:35:55 PM
Quote from: George on June 21, 2012, 12:42:15 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gX3jPOmyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

My nomination for the most fun Beethoven sonata CD ever recorded. Sorry, Bill, this one's in stereo.  ;D

For some reason it makes me think of Victor Borge.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on June 21, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
My favorite mono Beethoven sonata recording is without any question Edwin Fischer's 1938 recording of op.110. Simply wonderful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 21, 2012, 03:46:55 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 21, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
My favorite mono Beethoven sonata recording is without any question Edwin Fischer's 1938 recording of op.110. Simply wonderful.

Mine is Serkin's 'Waldstein'
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 21, 2012, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 21, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
My favorite mono Beethoven sonata recording is without any question Edwin Fischer's 1938 recording of op.110. Simply wonderful.

I've just had a listen (thank you Spotify) and what really stands out for me is the tone he conjures from the piano and this is from a recording that is nearly 80 years old. The sound is quite unique, I can't describe it. What also stands out is his use of dynamics, especially pianissimo. Maybe I need to explore this pianist further.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 21, 2012, 08:37:10 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 21, 2012, 05:31:09 PM
I've just had a listen (thank you Spotify) and what really stands out for me is the tone he conjures from the piano and this is from a recording that is nearly 80 years old. The sound is quite unique, I can't describe it. What also stands out is his use of dynamics, especially pianissimo. Maybe I need to explore this pianist further.

That may have something to do with the physical qualities of his piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 22, 2012, 09:39:08 AM
Quote from: Drasko on June 21, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
My favorite mono Beethoven sonata recording is without any question Edwin Fischer's 1938 recording of op.110. Simply wonderful.

What recording (label) do you have here, Miloš?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 22, 2012, 11:01:25 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 22, 2012, 09:39:08 AM
What recording (label) do you have here, Miloš?

I got the APR cheap and it sounds fine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 22, 2012, 01:52:39 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 21, 2012, 12:20:37 PM

Post #10,000
Wowsers! Congrats! That is really something!!!!!!

I guess that puts you with this company:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/HUF_10000_1997_obverse.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/10000-1f.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/10000_yen_note.JPG)(http://www.simonerossi.it/vecchie_lire/banconote_italiane/10000_volta.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/COP10000_frente.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/10000_Brunei_Dollar.jpg)
(http://thesialkot.com/SialkotShop/images/Super-Amino-10000-High-Pote.jpg)

:) :) :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 23, 2012, 07:59:38 AM
Well, yesterday I had time and opportunity due to a short road trip to review the four mono recordings I have of Sonata No. 8.  The recordings were:

Fischer (Pearl) 1938
Schnabel (Pearl) 1934
Rubinstein (RCA-AR Collection) 1946

at home:
Serkin (Columbia-vinyl) 1945

For the cds, my wife was kind enough to set up a blind test for my listening to the first three recordings listed.  Since sound was variable, performance was the only factor I tuned into.  My results:

1. Schnabel (I was shocked.  I thought he would be dead last, but enjoyed all three movements and thought he was level handed and did not try to over do it.)
2. Rubinstein (The third movement saved him for me.)
3. Fischer (Did not care for it much.  Sometimes it seemed quite juvenile.  I actually felt sorry for the piano being played at times as he seemed to bruise it.)

I then listened to the Serkin this morning and would put it ahead of the Schnabel.  However, I am still pleased Artur's effort. :)  Too bad I did not have a Serkin cd for the blind mono test, but I felt I still judged the performance fairly.  Of course, this is just my preference.  I am sure that others would vary my rankings.  I am now curious to hear the Annie Fischer, Kempff (mono) and the Solomon efforts with this piece.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2012, 08:28:29 AM
Time, opportunity and motive ....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on June 23, 2012, 09:18:54 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 22, 2012, 09:39:08 AM
What recording (label) do you have here, Miloš?

Hi Bill, I have it on Dante but that is long gone and anyhow both Pearl and APR should sound better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2012, 09:35:49 AM
Quote from: Drasko on June 23, 2012, 09:18:54 AM
Hi Bill, I have it on Dante but that is long gone and anyhow both Pearl and APR should sound better.

And Naxos!! Which is the most affordable and a good compromise between the "everything, including hiss" of Pearl and "no hiss and not a lot of other things either" of the Dante.
Americans have to get it through Amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/mn/search/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=19450&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aschnabel%20beethoven%20naxos%20piano%20works&field-keywords=schnabel%20beethoven%20naxos%20piano%20works&url=search-alias%3Daps&ajr=0) or Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/mn/search/?_encoding=UTF8&site-redirect=de&x=0&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=ur2&y=0&camp=1638&creative=19454&field-keywords=schnabel%20beethoven%20naxos%20&url=search-alias%3Daps) or in any case from Europe, thanks to Congress' Mickey-Mouse Copyright Extension. (We're not getting the Beatles-Extension, which isn't much better and ultimately the same B.S..
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 23, 2012, 10:35:58 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 23, 2012, 07:59:38 AM
Well, yesterday I had time and opportunity due to a short road trip to review the four mono recordings I have of Sonata No. 8.  The recordings were:

Fischer (Pearl) 1938
Schnabel (Pearl) 1934
Rubinstein (RCA-AR Collection) 1946

at home:
Serkin (Columbia-vinyl) 1945

For the cds, my wife was kind enough to set up a blind test for my listening to the first three recordings listed.  Since sound was variable, performance was the only factor I tuned into.  My results:

1. Schnabel (I was shocked.  I thought he would be dead last, but enjoyed all three movements and thought he was level handed and did not try to over do it.)
2. Rubinstein (The third movement saved him for me.)
3. Fischer (Did not care for it much.  Sometimes it seemed quite juvenile.  I actually felt sorry for the piano being played at times as he seemed to bruise it.)

I then listened to the Serkin this morning and would put it ahead of the Schnabel.  However, I am still pleased Artur's effort. :)  Too bad I did not have a Serkin cd for the blind mono test, but I felt I still judged the performance fairly.  Of course, this is just my preference.  I am sure that others would vary my rankings.  I am now curious to hear the Annie Fischer, Kempff (mono) and the Solomon efforts with this piece.

There's a mono Pathetique that Maria Grinberg recorded, not the one from her complete set (which is stereo I think), but an earlier recording. It's well worth hearing. I wonder why you say that E Fischer was sometimes juvenile.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 23, 2012, 01:09:22 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 23, 2012, 10:35:58 AM
There's a mono Pathetique that Maria Grinberg recorded, not the one from her complete set (which is stereo I think), but an earlier recording. It's well worth hearing.  I wonder why you say that E Fischer was sometimes juvenile.

An explanation.  I am not familiar with piano playing terms, but I can tell that during the sonata's third movement his hands were playing two different things.  The high notes that were featured in front and the lower notes.  Not sure what you call these, but the lower notes seemed to be immature sounding when compared to the higher ones....almost as if a youngster new to the keyboard was filling in.  Just my take.

If you find a link to the Grinberg, please post it here.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 23, 2012, 01:11:16 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 23, 2012, 09:18:54 AM
Hi Bill, I have it on Dante but that is long gone and anyhow both Pearl and APR should sound better.

Cool.  Any of those labels work for me, including the Naxos!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 23, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
You can download the mono Grinberg Pathetique from Musque Ouverte, it's the LP with op 111 and Rage over a lost penny.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 27, 2012, 06:18:35 PM
..and now there is this.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RSqCRPPxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Op 10/1 is extremely good to my ears.

Op 22 less so as I like this one a little more forceful than Biss plays it. I felt he could also have taken a bit more time with the slow movement.

Op 26 - some wonderful contrast between the vars in I. A sparkly and swift II though I didn't think there was enough gravitas in the Funeral March.

Op 81a A beautifully weighted opening Adagio with the following Allegro very well played. The Absence was lacking in the range of dynamics (apart from right at the very end to give true sense of longing for return. The Return is suitably joyous.

So what do I make of Mr Biss' playing. FIrst, he has that strong and rhythmically articulate right hand so necessary for good Beethoven playing. His right hand has a pearly quality about it without sounding too crystalline. I just felt that he needs to adopt a wider dynamic range. His phrasing over the short term is first class but I wonder if he sees the bigger picture at this stage like Richter did.

That said, Biss is still only 31 and he is making this cycle over a 9 year period. I wonder if he will look back at Vol 1 and say "I would now do this differently".

You can listen to this on Spotify or MOG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on June 27, 2012, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 27, 2012, 06:18:35 PM
..and now there is this.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RSqCRPPxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Op 10/1 is extremely good to my ears.

Op 22 less so as I like this one a little more forceful than Biss plays it. I felt he could also have taken a bit more time with the slow movement.

Op 26 - some wonderful contrast between the vars in I. A sparkly and swift II though I didn't think there was enough gravitas in the Funeral March.

Op 81a A beautifully weighted opening Adagio with the following Allegro very well played. The Absence was lacking in the range of dynamics (apart from right at the very end to give true sense of longing for return. The Return is suitably joyous.

So what do I make of Mr Biss' playing. FIrst, he has that strong and rhythmically articulate right hand so necessary for good Beethoven playing. His right hand has a pearly quality about it without sounding too crystalline. I just felt that he needs to adopt a wider dynamic range. His phrasing over the short term is first class but I wonder if he sees the bigger picture at this stage like Richter did.

That said, Biss is still only 31 and he is making this cycle over a 9 year period. I wonder if he will look back at Vol 1 and say "I would now do this differently".

You can listen to this on Spotify or MOG.

Or NML.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 28, 2012, 07:43:37 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 27, 2012, 06:18:35 PM..and now there is this.



There's also his earlier EMI disc.  He's already shown development on disc. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: sunflowerblues on July 09, 2012, 03:35:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 21, 2012, 12:15:50 AM
Blimey! Nearly forgot about the "Gulda 0" cycle. First page of LvB-Sonata-Survey updated (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html) accordingly.

I'm confused. Is this the Amadeo set, Gulda II?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HJBY61XVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The back cover mentions both Amadeo and Decca.
(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/35/fa/000afa35.jpeg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 09, 2012, 05:16:01 PM
Quote from: sunflowerblues on July 09, 2012, 03:35:22 PM
I'm confused. Is this the Amadeo set, Gulda II?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HJBY61XVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The back cover mentions both Amadeo and Decca.
(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/35/fa/000afa35.jpeg)

Yes, yes... the Amadeo set (Gulda II, if we call the radio cycle "0", rec. in 68) has been re-issued on Brilliant in the US and on Decca Eloquence in Europe (and now worldwide).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 16, 2012, 03:09:01 PM
A seemingly simple question for the experts here.  What cycle in good, modern sound, would be the closest in spirit to Kempff?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 16, 2012, 03:57:20 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 16, 2012, 03:09:01 PM
A seemingly simple question for the experts here.  What cycle in good, modern sound, would be the closest in spirit to Kempff?

John O'Conor. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 16, 2012, 05:50:20 PM
Quote from: George on July 16, 2012, 03:57:20 PM
John O'Conor.

I have that cycle, and within my relatively modest collection - Kempff (50's and 60's), Brendel (70's), Arrau, Pommier, Barenboim (EMI) O'Conor, Nat, Lortie, Backhaus (60's) Brautigam, Gilels (DG), Kovacevich- that would be the one I would have picked as the modern Kempff.  I was wondering what others might be out there.

What attracts me to Kempff is that he doesn't give the impression that he is giving a performance, so much as he is playing for himself and we have the privileged of eavesdropping. 

Currently trying to maintain the force of will not to get the Takacs.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 16, 2012, 09:36:34 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 16, 2012, 05:50:20 PM

What attracts me to Kempff is that he doesn't give the impression that he is giving a performance, so much as he is playing for himself and we have the privileged of eavesdropping. 


This is a very interesting question. The Beethoven pianist who comes to mind for me is Cziffra. But there are only a handful of sonatas on record.

Also, maybe, sometimes in Elly Ney's postwar records. And possibly in Pogorelich's later records -- not the DG but some of the DVDs and the concert recordings. And maybe in Anatol Ugorsky's records. And maybe that one that Pletnev did on Rachmaninov's piano.

But it's a hard quality to find. In which sonatas do you hear it in Kempff?  (and which cycle?)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 17, 2012, 07:47:16 AM
The hunch I had that Cziffra's Beethoven has the desired confidential syle turned out to be confirmed when I listened to some recordings today. But not really for all the others I'd thought of:Ney, Pletnev, Pogorelich. I can't bring myself to listen to Ugorsky.

But one record which certainly does meet the requirement is Gould's early radio recordings, the one which includes some Bagatelles and Op 101 and Op 49/1. Also the live Op 110 from Stockholm. Gould was like that live sometimes: his Salzburg Mozart sonata has something of that quality. The radio performance is a truly wonderful CD  I think.

I have no idea how subjective these things are.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 17, 2012, 09:24:26 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 16, 2012, 09:36:34 PMBut it's a hard quality to find. In which sonatas do you hear it in Kempff?  (and which cycle?)

It is a quality that I hear in some degree in all of Kempff's solo piano recordings.  I've recently been listening to his Schubert Sonata series and I hear it there, in particular. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on July 20, 2012, 12:34:28 PM
Just a reminder that there are 11 of Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas recorded for the Beethoven Sonata Society, hiss and crackle free, to be found here
               http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcriptions_07.php
if you haven't yet sampled them, or even if you have (!), why not give them a(nother) try.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 07:30:14 AM
I'm back-to-backing the Op 10 sets of HJ Lim and Ronald Brautigam on the suspicion that of people who only take 11 minutes to blast through 10/2, Brautigam will be the better pianist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 07:45:55 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 07:30:14 AM
I'm back-to-backing the Op 10 sets of HJ Lim and Ronald Brautigam on the suspicion that of people who only take 11 minutes to blast through 10/2, Brautigam will be the better pianist.

Hating HJ Lim seems to have become a cult here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 07:45:55 AMHating HJ Lim seems to have become a cult here.



Not a cult.  A reasonable reaction to her awful playing.  I mean she's really bad.  As in Anne Oland bad.  Compare her playing to Stewart Goodyear, Jean Efflam Bavouzet, Francois Frederic Guy, or even Christian Leotta (to name just other LvB releases from this year) and her awfulness is clear.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 23, 2012, 08:03:02 AM
Is HJ Lim the one with the ten buck full cycle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 08:06:34 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on July 23, 2012, 08:03:02 AMIs HJ Lim the one with the ten buck full cycle?



Yes, on iTunes.  (For only $7 more, one can get the far better complete cycle from Seymour Lipkin on CD-ROM, and his set comes with the sheet music.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2012, 08:08:27 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 08:06:34 AM


Yes, on iTunes.  (For only $7 more, one can get the far better complete cycle from Seymour Lipkin on CD-ROM, and his set comes with the sheet music.)

But he's fugly.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 23, 2012, 08:10:48 AM
Who has the best 21st century cycle thus far?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2012, 08:12:10 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on July 23, 2012, 08:10:48 AM
Who has the best 21st century cycle thus far?

Christopher Nolan.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 08:16:09 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on July 23, 2012, 08:10:48 AMWho has the best 21st century cycle thus far?


1.) Andrea Lucchesini.  Alas, it is OOP.

2.) Francois Frederic Guy.  Almost certainly, based on the first two of three volumes.  Alas, it is not done.

3.) Daniel Barenboim on DVD.  Alas, it is on DVD.

4.) Tie: Peter Takacs or Stewart Goodyear.  (Jean Efflam Bavouzet will probably also tie them.)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 08:20:11 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 07:49:04 AM
Not a cult.  A reasonable reaction to her awful playing.  I mean she's really bad.  As in Anne Oland bad.  Compare her playing to Stewart Goodyear, Jean Efflam Bavouzet, Francois Frederic Guy, or even Christian Leotta (to name just other LvB releases from this year) and her awfulness is clear.

I actually didn't think her Op 10 was that bad. Is it really not that bad, or am I getting too used to this crap? So far the "lowlights" for me have been Moonlight, Op 31/3, and any of the late sonatas, with the lowest point being Op 79/ii.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 23, 2012, 08:20:59 AM
Quote from: George on July 23, 2012, 08:12:10 AM
Christopher Nolan.  8)

;D

Quote1.) Andrea Lucchesini.  Alas, it is OOP.

2.) Francois Frederic Guy.  Almost certainly, based on the first two of three volumes.  Alas, it is not done.

3.) Daniel Barenboim on DVD.  Alas, it is on DVD.

4.) Tie: Peter Takacs or Stewart Goodyear.  (Jean Efflam Bavouzet will probably also tie them.)


Alas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 08:34:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 08:20:11 AM
I actually didn't think her Op 10 was that bad. Is it really not that bad, or am I getting too used to this crap?
Never mind. Moved on to Brautigam and Bavouzet, and her Op 10 is pretty bad after all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 23, 2012, 08:38:43 AM
I started listening to the 32 played by Eric Heidsieck. First hearing was devoted to sonatas 20, 21, 23, and 25. This is early seventies vintage, in clear, wide-ranging sound. Born 1936, he studied with Cortot and took lessons from Kempff.

Heidsieck plays vigorously and with a big dynamic range. I didn't detect much effort toward colouring his sound. He seems to be interested in the melodic and rythmic  structure of the works. Some strong underlinings here and there suggest he is no mere note-spinner. The sound in fortes can be quite percussive, something Lortie always avoids, to the detriment of the music's personality IMO - Beethoven didn't strive to sound 'beautiful'.


My first impression is that this is big, bold Beethoven plying of uncommon intelligence and integrity.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 08:49:18 AM
Quote from: André on July 23, 2012, 08:38:43 AMI started listening to the 32 played by Eric Heidsieck...

My first impression is that this is big, bold Beethoven plying of uncommon intelligence and integrity.


Heidsieck's cycle is one of the best.  He's an underappreciated pianist.  I've yet to hear anything less than compelling from him - LvB, Mozart, Debussy, Faure. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 09:20:36 AM
Annie Oland's on Naxos Music Library. If I want to fully understand why her cycle somehow rates below Lim's on the Todd-O-Meter, without investing too much time in it, which sonata(s) should I sample?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2012, 10:07:38 AM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2012, 10:08:51 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 09:20:36 AM
If I want to fully understand why her cycle somehow rates below Lim's on the Todd-O-Meter, without investing too much time in it, which sonata(s) should I sample?

You mean this wasn't enough info?

QuoteAnnie Oland's on Naxos Music Library.

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 09:20:36 AMAnnie Oland's on Naxos Music Library. If I want to fully understand why her cycle somehow rates below Lim's on the Todd-O-Meter, without investing too much time in it, which sonata(s) should I sample?


First off, it's Anne, not Annie, and second, try these:

2/2 (the Largo, especially)
27/1
27/2  (really bad)
28
57
106
109

The first disc Øland recorded, which was a mixed recital, was the most successful and not terrible, but everything went downhill from there.  In general, her tone is ugly, her delivery stiff, and her slow movements tend to be just plain unpleasant to listen to.

I'm almost tempted to do a Lim v Øland comparison, but I don't know if I could sit through it.  I still have one Lim disc to hear, and I've been sitting on it for about a month.  It's been a tough set to sit through.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 23, 2012, 10:38:49 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 10:33:33 AM
I'm almost tempted to do a Lim v Øland comparison, but I don't know if I could sit through it.  I still have one Lim disc to hear, and I've been sitting on it for about a month.  It's been a tough set to sit through.

You have suffered enough.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 23, 2012, 11:19:31 AM
 Quote from: MN Dave on Today at 02:38:49 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=2302.msg646079#msg646079)
You have suffered enough.
   
No, he hasn't!  ;D   

Bad reviews (by which I mean reviews of bad recordings) are always such fun to read. 

And besides, in the past couple of years I've picked up both Heidsieck's excellent cycle (based largely on Todd's review) and recently Lim's cycle (largely ignoring Todd's opinion, thinking "aw, how bad could it be?  It's cheap!").  I should know better...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 11:40:07 AM
Oh god, the finale of Oland's Op 27/2 is absolutely killing me. Thing is, though, while Oland is foursquare, drab, and dull, Lim is willfully, delibarately awful. It's the difference between, say, Kilmer's Batman and Adam West's Batman.

Quote from: jwinter on July 23, 2012, 11:19:31 AM
Bad reviews (by which I mean reviews of bad recordings) are always such fun to read. 

Why do you think I'm braving the Lim box?  >:D I'm working for MusicWeb... hoping to get through the thing (or as much as I can stand) and have a review submitted by the end of August.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 11:42:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 11:40:07 AMOh god, the finale of Oland's Op 27/2 is absolutely killing me.


Told ya.

(I think it patently unfair to compare Adam West to HJ Lim in any way!)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 11:48:09 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 11:42:19 AM
Told ya.

(I think it patently unfair to compare Adam West to HJ Lim in any way!)
Now HJ Lim's 109 finale is burying me and leaving some organic waste matter on the grave. Holy christ this is the worst.

(And true... my review compares HJ Lim to a different Adam... Adam Sandler.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 23, 2012, 11:49:27 AM
 Quote from: Brian on Today at 03:40:07 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=2302.msg646106#msg646106)
Oh god, the finale of Oland's Op 27/2 is absolutely killing me. Thing is, though, while Oland is foursquare, drab, and dull, Lim is willfully, delibarately awful. It's the difference between, say, Kilmer's Batman and Adam West's Batman.

Why do you think I'm braving the Lim box?  >:D I'm working for MusicWeb... hoping to get through the thing (or as much as I can stand) and have a review submitted by the end of August.
   
Look forward to reading your review! 

However, if you're implying that Adam West's "wilfully, deliberately awful" acting is in any way a bad thing, I shall have to ask you to step outside.....

(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4794923600511081&id=906498a7993081de73eb2a2cf30623fb)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 23, 2012, 11:52:03 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 23, 2012, 11:49:27 AM
(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4794923600511081&id=906498a7993081de73eb2a2cf30623fb)

+1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 11:53:15 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 11:40:07 AM
Oh god, the finale of Oland's Op 27/2 is absolutely killing me. Thing is, though, while Oland is foursquare, drab, and dull, Lim is willfully, delibarately awful. It's the difference between, say, Kilmer's Batman and Adam West's Batman.

Why do you think I'm braving the Lim box?  >:D I'm working for MusicWeb... hoping to get through the thing (or as much as I can stand) and have a review submitted by the end of August.

Well, I've listened to the limited sample available of the set, and they sound fun, in an outlandish sort of way.  And to be honest, the self-important, contemptuous tone with which the recordings are discussed around here makes me quite anxious hear them.  After all, the recordings you self-appointed luminaries approve all sound the same anyway.  Time to hear something a bit different.  Too bad I missed initial offer from amazon.co.uk.  But I'll be looking for a good price on this set. 

BTW, what is MusicWeb?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 23, 2012, 11:55:47 AM
http://musicweb-international.com/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 11:59:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 11:48:09 AM(And true... my review compares HJ Lim to a different Adam... Adam Sandler.)



Surely you don't mean the Adam Sandler from Happy Gilmore.



Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 11:53:15 AMAfter all, the recordings you self-appointed luminaries approve all sound the same anyway.



Really?  Russell Sherman and Eric Heidsieck and Wilhelm Kempff and Wilhelm Backhaus and Annie Fischer and Andrea Lucchesini and Claudio Arrau and Emil Gilels and Friedrich Gulda all sound the same?  Based on your statement, I'm guessing you haven't actually heard them.  Please provide an instance where they sound the same.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 12:13:41 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 23, 2012, 11:49:27 AM
However, if you're implying that Adam West's "wilfully, deliberately awful" acting is in any way a bad thing, I shall have to ask you to step outside.....

Not at all! It's just, some days you can't get rid of a bomb.

http://www.youtube.com/v/YSZJufHv5kg

Todd, I believe the wording is something like, HJ Lim is like Adam Sandler: it's funny the first couple times, but then you just wish it would go the hell away.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:20:53 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 11:40:07 AM
Oh god, the finale of Oland's Op 27/2 is absolutely killing me. Thing is, though, while Oland is foursquare, drab, and dull, Lim is willfully, delibarately awful.

You've got me interested, so I listened to the finale of the "Moonlight" from Oland, Lim and Guy.  Oland sucks out all the music's excitement through a very slow tempo, episodic treatment and a sub-par technique (very sub-par).  Lim, although sounding like a runaway train, is much more to my liking.  So, I find that Oland doesn't have the chops needed while Lim has the chops but doesn't know what to do with them.  Listening to Guy was most refreshing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 12:21:27 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 11:59:13 AMReally?  Russell Sherman and Eric Heidsieck and Wilhelm Kempff and Wilhelm Backhaus and Annie Fischer and Andrea Lucchesini and Claudio Arrau and Emil Gilels and Friedrich Gulda all sound the same?  Based on your statement, I'm guessing you haven't actually heard them.  Please provide an instance where they sound the same.

Have Kempff (2), Backhaus, Arrau, Gilels, not Sherman, Heidsieck, Fischer, Lucchesini (who's that?) or Gulda.  Have some others, including O'Conor, Lortie, Pommier, Barenboim (EMI), probably some others I can't remember at the moment.  Brendel, I forgot Brendel (Philips, analog), and Brautigam.  Excluding Brautigam (shaping up to be my favorite cycle), I must retreat from my little outburst of hyperole and admit that they are not literally "all the same."  But they vary within a fairly well defined tradition.  In the little samples, at least, Lin sounded like she wanted to do something different, in a willful, sort of foolish way.  Maybe like what Argerich might have done, if she had had the attention span to record a complete cycle of something more extensive than the Chopin Preludes.

Anyway, I'm going to get it.  Can't wait until they release it in the US and the Amazon marketplace sellers start trying to undercut each other on price.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:24:56 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 11:53:15 AM
Well, I've listened to the limited sample available of the set, and they sound fun, in an outlandish sort of way.  And to be honest, the self-important, contemptuous tone with which the recordings are discussed around here makes me quite anxious hear them.  After all, the recordings you self-appointed luminaries approve all sound the same anyway.  Time to hear something a bit different.  Too bad I missed initial offer from amazon.co.uk.  But I'll be looking for a good price on this set. 

You can keep looking for a good price; my perspective is that no price is good enough to have Lim's set gathering dust in my music library.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:30:35 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 23, 2012, 11:49:27 AM
However, if you're implying that Adam West's "wilfully, deliberately awful" acting is in any way a bad thing, I shall have to ask you to step outside.....

(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4794923600511081&id=906498a7993081de73eb2a2cf30623fb)

Thwack away!  Adam West was really bad in that tv series; the only acting I recall that comes close to being as bad comes from Kenneth Branagh in the movie "Peter's Friends".  Saw that one last night, and I must say that he was pathetic (especially as a drunk).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on July 23, 2012, 12:33:12 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:30:35 PM
Thwack away!  Adam West was really bad in that tv series;
You mean; in addition to being stupid enough not to realize that throwing the bomb in the sea would effectievely put out the fuse?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 12:34:22 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:20:53 PM
You've got me interested, so I listened to the finale of the "Moonlight" from Oland, Lim and Guy.  Oland sucks out all the music's excitement through a very slow tempo, episodic treatment and a sub-par technique (very sub-par).  Lim, although sounding like a runaway train, is much more to my liking.  So, I find that Oland doesn't have the chops needed while Lim has the chops but doesn't know what to do with them.  Listening to Guy was most refreshing.

Lim has technique to burn, although she does burn right past her fingers' ability to play a couple times in the set (my full notes are at home...). You might want to compare her and Guy's first movements from the "Moonlight" though. (At any rate because Guy's Moonlight adagio is close to my ideal.)

@Fafner: Brautigam's awesome, right? One of my favorite Waldsteins. You sound like a good candidate to enjoy Francois-Frederic Guy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 12:35:38 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:20:53 PMwhile Lim has the chops but doesn't know what to do with them.


Bingo.  (Sometimes, though, she doesn't have the technique to deliver her ideas.) 

Guy has it all.  Haven't had a chance to write anything on volume two yet, but when his final installment is released, it could very well be the cycle of the 2010s.



Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 12:21:27 PMBut they vary within a fairly well defined tradition.


Except they don't.  I chose the names on purpose.  Russell Sherman's cycle is, if anything, more eccentric than Lim's, except he has the technique and the artistry to make his vision work.  Gulda's Amadeo cycle is an awesome display of technique and a narrow, unique interpretative approach.  Heidsieck is highly idiosyncratic, as well, but eminently tasteful and perfectly controlled.  Annie Fischer is the go-to for me for intense LvB.  Andrea Lucchesini is a contemporary pianist who records only sporadically, but everything (save a weak, live Brahms 1st) is top flight.  His LvB cycle is one of the most beautiful I've heard.  It very nearly sings.  (Same with his LvB cello sonatas.)

By all means, buy Lim, just don't expect those who can't stand her to say she sounds good.

Again, if you want a good, cheap cycle, there's always Lipkin.  His Op 57, alone, is worth the asking price.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 12:21:27 PM
Have Kempff (2), Backhaus, Arrau, Gilels, not Sherman, Heidsieck, Fischer, Lucchesini (who's that?) or Gulda.  Have some others, including O'Conor, Lortie, Pommier, Barenboim (EMI), probably some others I can't remember at the moment.  Brendel, I forgot Brendel (Philips, analog), and Brautigam.  Excluding Brautigam (shaping up to be my favorite cycle), I must retreat from my little outburst of hyperole and admit that they are not literally "all the same."  But they vary within a fairly well defined tradition.  In the little samples, at least, Lin sounded like she wanted to do something different, in a willful, sort of foolish way.  Maybe like what Argerich might have done, if she had had the attention span to record a complete cycle of something more extensive than the Chopin Preludes.

You're a hoot!  First, you insult some highly knowledgeable GMG members, then you cast dispersions on the attention span of one of the finest pianists alive. 

Not recording complete sets is a perfectly fine way to go for performing artists.  Argerich records what she wants to record; I wouldn't want it any other way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2012, 12:38:46 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:37:16 PM
Argerich records what she wants to record; I wouldn't want it any other way.

Since that means she records less, I agree.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 12:42:53 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 23, 2012, 12:37:16 PMFirst, you insult some highly knowledgeable GMG members, then you cast dispersions on the attention span of one of the finest pianists alive. 
Moreover, based on Lim's way with a lengthy variations movement, saying HJ Lim plays like Argerich would have is a double insult to Argerich's attention span.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 12:49:34 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 12:35:38 PMExcept they don't.  I chose the names on purpose.  Russell Sherman's cycle is, if anything, more eccentric than Lim's, except he has the technique and the artistry to make his vision work.  Gulda's Amadeo cycle is an awesome display of technique and a narrow, unique interpretative approach.  Heidsieck is highly idiosyncratic, as well, but eminently tasteful and perfectly controlled.  Annie Fischer is the go-to for me for intense LvB.  Andrea Lucchesini is a contemporary pianist who records only sporadically, but everything (save a weak, live Brahms 1st) is top flight.  His LvB cycle is one of the most beautiful I've heard.  It very nearly sings.  (Same with his LvB cello sonatas.)

If you chose those names on purpose, I can only assume it was because they are all out-of-print and unavailable in the US at a non-insane price (except Gulda, and which doesn't appeal to me, base on past experience).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 12:34:22 PM@Fafner: Brautigam's awesome, right? One of my favorite Waldsteins. You sound like a good candidate to enjoy Francois-Frederic Guy.

Yes, I do like Brautigam.  I started listening from the two ends, and have not gotten to the middle yet, so I haven't heard the Wallenstein.  I'll have to look up this Guy guy.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 12:49:34 PMIf you chose those names on purpose, I can only assume it was because they are all out-of-print and unavailable in the US at a non-insane price (except Gulda, and which doesn't appeal to me, base on past experience).



You assume incorrectly.  I chose them because of their quality.  I've posted about cycles for years, and when I posted they were all readily available.  I'm not certain about current availability in all cases - I don't follow recordings I already own - but the Gulda is available, and Heidsieck's is out there in a couple different guises.  Annie Fisher's is sporadically available.  It may be a good idea for you to check Europe and Japan for some discs.  Just because something isn't available in the US doesn't mean it's not available.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 23, 2012, 01:20:24 PM
Why on earth would you guys fistfight over interpretations that seem to be out of the botbotbottom drawer ??? I suppose I missed the first chapter... ;)

Todd, what do you think of Paul Lewis' Beethoven. Sorry if I didn't check back pages of the thread, I'm just starting to get reacquainted with all these discussions after an absence of a fee months.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 01:24:15 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 12:56:43 PM


You assume incorrectly.  I chose them because of their quality.  I've posted about cycles for years, and when I posted they were all readily available.  I'm not certain about current availability in all cases - I don't follow recordings I already own - but the Gulda is available, and Heidsieck's is out there in a couple different guises.  Annie Fisher's is sporadically available.  It may be a good idea for you to check Europe and Japan for some discs.  Just because something isn't available in the US doesn't mean it's not available.

I did find that Russell Sherman set for $239.47, condition only "good." 

I spit on HJ Lim's Beethoven set.  Phew!  Are we at peace now?  If you want you can send me your copy of her set so I can personally disrespect it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 01:30:01 PM
Quote from: André on July 23, 2012, 01:20:24 PMTodd, what do you think of Paul Lewis' Beethoven. Sorry if I didn't check back pages of the thread, I'm just starting to get reacquainted with all these discussions after an absence of a fee months.



In general, I find it rather too predictable and somewhat dull.  That written, his 106 is one of the best out there, and there are a few other good interpretations in the cycle.  The entire cycle is in SOTA sound, as well.



Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 01:24:15 PMI spit on HJ Lim's Beethoven set.  Phew!  Are we at peace now?  If you want you can send me your copy of her set so I can personally disrespect it.



Huh? 

At least I've listened to 7/8ths of it.  How about you?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 01:35:00 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 01:30:01 PMAt least I've listened to 7/8ths of it.  How about you?

Listened to approximately 1/200th of it.  Sounds great so far!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 01:35:00 PMListened to approximately 1/200th of it.  Sounds great so far!



Why don't you listen to even one entire sonata and then opine.  As it is, you are basing your statements on sound samples.  That's rather like reading a random paragraph in a book and commenting on said book, don't you think?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 23, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 01:30:01 PM


In general, I find it rather too predictable and dull.

Thanks. That is precisely why I like Heidsieck ( after hearing 5 more sonatas from the cycle). I find him both unpredictable and interesting in all aspects of his playing.

I'll go for Lewis' op. 106. Does he show more personality in Schubert?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 01:37:27 PM
Why don't you listen to even one entire sonata and then opine.  As it is, you are basing your statements on sound samples.  That's rather like reading a random paragraph in a book and commenting on said book, don't you think?

I never said the Lim cycle was good.  Just that I liked the samples and wanted to hear the whole thing.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 71 dB on July 23, 2012, 01:46:47 PM
I have been listening to Annie Fischer's (the first 15 sonatas so far) cycle. I don't know what it is but I really like her playing!

Only a couple of years ago I didn't care about Beethoven's piano sonatas but now that I have explored them I am impressed. Fischer's playing completes the bliss.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 01:53:54 PM
Quote from: André on July 23, 2012, 01:41:16 PMThanks. That is precisely why I like Heidsieck ( after hearing 5 more sonatas from the cycle). I find him both unpredicta and interesting in all aspects of his playing.


Completely agree.  The best thing is that the sense of unpredictability remains upon subsequent listens.  I still hear new things six years since I first got it.  The same holds true for his Mozart sonatas.  (Alas, those are only available in Japan and are quite spendy.)



Quote from: André on July 23, 2012, 01:41:16 PMDoes he show more personality in Schubert?


I've not heard his Schubert, so I can't comment.  I do have the opportunity to hear him play the last three sonatas in recital next spring.  I may very well go; it is almost universally agreed that he is better live.  It may be a good idea to get the recordings ahead of time, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2012, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 23, 2012, 01:46:47 PM
I have been listening to Annie Fischer's (the first 15 sonatas so far) cycle. I don't know what it is but I really like her playing!

Only a couple of years ago I didn't care about Beethoven's piano sonatas but now that I have explored them I am impressed. Fischer's playing completes the bliss.

Glad to hear this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on July 23, 2012, 05:31:16 PM
Quote from: George on July 23, 2012, 02:12:22 PM
Glad to hear this.

George,   Our Beethoven Piano Sonatas sets overlap a bit.  I still have to get started with the Arrau's set, my latest acquisition.  I also have little reason to go for any set by the new blood ...    ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2012, 12:34:22 PM
You sound like a good candidate to enjoy Francois-Frederic Guy.

I notice that 2/3 of the Guy cycle seems to have been released.  Anyone know if the label has given any indication of when the final installment will be available? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 05:44:49 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 23, 2012, 05:42:27 PM
I notice that 2/3 of the Guy cycle seems to have been released.  Anyone know if the label has given any indication of when the final installment will be available?

I thiiiink spring 2013. Vol 1 came out Jan '11; Vol 2 came out this June. Jens might know, maybe?

Incidentally, MusicWeb (http://www.musicweb-international.com) mailed me a review copy of Guy Vol 2 today, so I'm a very lucky boy. Already knew I liked it from listening on NML... but that's not cheating, honest! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2012, 05:46:43 PM
So Brian and Todd like Guys?


(http://epguides.com/BeavisandButthead/cast.jpg)


;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2012, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: George on July 23, 2012, 05:46:43 PMSo Brian and Todd like Guy?


I do.  The first volume is top flight.  The second is not quite as good, but nearly.  Let's say the first volume is a 10, and the second is a 9.5 or thereabouts. 

(The t-shirts on those boys are wrong, all wrong.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2012, 05:50:38 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2012, 05:49:34 PM

I do.  The first volume is top flight.  The second is not quite as good, but nearly.  Let's say the first volume is a 10, and the second is a 9.5 or thereabouts.

I see what you did there.  :D

I heard some of one of his sets on Spotify and thought it was OK.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2012, 11:50:48 PM
Quote from: André on July 23, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
Thanks. That is precisely why I like Heidsieck ( after hearing 5 more sonatas from the cycle). I find him both unpredictable and interesting in all aspects of his playing.

I'll go for Lewis' op. 106. Does he show more personality in Schubert?

I listened to Heidsieck's Hammerklavier a few weeks ago and it really caught my attention.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 12:41:59 PM
Sounds like Heidsieck is one that should be heard (at least while waiting for the rest of Guy and Lim to appear). 

As far as I can see, his cycle is out-of-print, with no abundance of used copies floating around.  However, the (also out-of-print, apparently) Beethoven box from EMI france is available from broinc.com for $50.

[asin]B000J0ZPH4[/asin]

It contains mostly EMI-france recordings of Beethoven's major works.  Cluytens symphonies, Hungarian Quartet, I've already pinched my copy, so have at it.

Maybe I'll make my first iTunes purchase ever and get that Lim set for $9.99.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wheels of Cheese on July 24, 2012, 12:54:08 PM
I've been reviewing the first disc of the HJ Lim set on my blog Wheels of Cheese (where I am attempting to listen to and blog about every piece of music mentioned in the June 2012 edition of Gramophone Magazine, cos why not...

The link is here http://www.peter-salmon.co.uk/petersalmon/category/wheels-of-cheese/ but here's the latest post to give you a flavour of the thing...

"And so to the last of HJ Lim's journeys into The Eternal Feminine: Youth – the Opus 27 sonatas, numbers 13 and 14 – and, alas, the last of the sonatas on the first disc of her complete sonatas, and thus the last I shall hear.

Having a day off, and enjoying the glories of temperatures approaching 30 degrees Celsius, I betook myself to listen to these last two sonatas in the time honoured style of the Romantic – prone, slightly drunk, and under a tree (above). I cannot say that I was wistful, but there was definitely a certain amount of wist that inveigled its way into my otherwise taut being as I let HJ take me on one more gallop through the sonatas of Ludwig van, the sun dappling with great dapplement through the overhanging boughs.

We've been through a lot, HJ and me – was it only a few weeks ago that she was hammering out on the klavier the Hammerklavier? I was so young and so full of hope back then, far from the grey-beard loon who stands before you now, holding you with his skinny hand. Can anyone blame me for getting emotional as the opening chords of sonata 13 began – HJ's usual impetus checked by a certain degree of what the poets used to call 'melancholy' (Ludwig still obviously wasn't getting any – oh the feminine, oh the eternal!). Sure blame me, but I say unto you, let he who is without Lim cast the first stone! (Ker-ching!)

By the second movement she had regained both her piss and her vinegar and we were off for another frenetic foray into fortepiano. What, that the opening of Opus 14 also called 'The Moonlight' sonata fairly cantered along? It was just good to hear a version of the sonata where the flailing third movement actually appeared related to the first (it's time it was said). And sure, there are some nay-sayers who, between 'nays' argue that the odd pause between movements allows for a modicum of reflection. I say to them – reflect in your own time, grand-dad! HJ is in da house, and that's LvB's metronome markings she's laying down.

But now she's gone. It is possible to get the complete Complete Sonatas for some ridiculous price on iTunes, and I think you should. For all of the nonsense in the liner notes, and her tendency to play the fast movements well and the slow movements fast, this is pretty glorious music making. As for me, I now move onto the next set of cds, Martha Argerich and Friends, Live From Lugano 2011. Now what do they open with?... let's see... Martha playing... oh dear... Beethoven...

So saying, he stretched out beneath the mighty oak. And did he sleep? Reader, he slept."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 24, 2012, 06:47:20 PM
Never heard of HJ Lim before all the furore over her Beethoven. So, I went to youtube to make up my own mind. And on to the finale of Tchaikovsky's first concerto  ;D . Well, I was not floored or knocked out, but almost knocked sideways. What really impressed me was her knowledge of the score and the obvious relish she showed in just about every gesture, twist and turn of the knotty score Tchaikovsky threw at her. Where Arrau would have looked the ever patrician cardinal, Rubinstein the ultimate aristocrat and Lang Lang the incarnation of Jar Jar Binks tickling the ivory, Ms. Lim displays an intense pleasure and genuine fun in this, one of the most hackneyed scores ever.

I haven't heard her play the  Beethoven sonatas, but to be honest with whoever is reading me, after watching that succulent, awesome display, I can understand the fuss over her Beethoven. Not to sound patronizing but, apart from the young Barenboim, when is the last time you heard of a young pianist encompassing the 32 ?  I hope she develops as an artist. I'm a sucker for Tchaik 1. If she records it I'll buy it.

For Beethoven I'll watch and read carefully about her. Including GMG posters :D. And thank you all for your insights and experience.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 24, 2012, 07:04:12 PM
Quote from: André on July 24, 2012, 06:47:20 PMNot to sound patronizing but, apart from the young Barenboim, when is the last time you heard of a young pianist encompassing the 32 ?



Friedrich Gulda, Yukio Yokoyama, Dino Ciani, Alfredo Perl.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 07:05:20 PM
Quote from: André on July 24, 2012, 06:47:20 PM
Not to sound patronizing but, apart from the young Barenboim, when is the last time you heard of a young pianist encompassing the 32 ?

That's part of the controversy.  She recorded the complete 30.  She omitted two because they were published without Beethoven's authorization.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 24, 2012, 07:07:53 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 07:05:20 PMThat's part of the controversy.


Controversy?  Nah, just a non-musical way to call attention to herself.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 24, 2012, 07:38:17 PM
Right now listening with much pleasure to sonata 16 played with extraordinary insight by Eric Heidsieck. I must say this is maybe the first time I hear a trill ( in II) evoke such an Alice in Wonderland world of beauty and imagination. Pure delight. Of course that's Beethoven's doing. 14 minutes' long slow movement in a 26 minute work. It takes a great artist to enter such an emotional-intellectual vortex. I've long considered op. 31 to be the kernel of all Beethoven's sonata output - its centre of gravity so to speak. This is an aural testimony to something that was essentially instinctive so far.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 24, 2012, 07:45:36 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 07:05:20 PM
That's part of the controversy.  She recorded the complete 30.  She omitted two because they were published without Beethoven's authorization.

Interesting, really :o. What are the unauthorized two?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 24, 2012, 07:53:23 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 12:41:59 PM
Sounds like Heidsieck is one that should be heard (at least while waiting for the rest of Guy and Lim to appear). 

As far as I can see, his cycle is out-of-print, with no abundance of used copies floating around.  However, the (also out-of-print, apparently) Beethoven box from EMI france is available from broinc.com for $50.

[asin]B000J0ZPH4[/asin]

It contains mostly EMI-france recordings of Beethoven's major works.  Cluytens symphonies, Hungarian Quartet, I've already pinched my copy, so have at it.

Maybe I'll make my first iTunes purchase ever and get that Lim set for $9.99.

Tried about ten different ways to find BRO's listing for that box with its search engine, and couldn't find it.  Can you tell me how to find it?   But I did notice the Heidseik set on its own is listed there for $39.92
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 07:54:48 PM
Quote from: André on July 24, 2012, 07:45:36 PM
Interesting, really :o. What are the unauthorized two?

Op 49 (#19 and #20).  They were written before the official #1.  They were published by Beethoven's brother Casper against Ludwig's wishes.  I wish she would have recorded them, though, because I like them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 07:56:37 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 24, 2012, 07:53:23 PM
Tried about ten different ways to find BRO's listing for that box with its search engine, and couldn't find it.  Can you tell me how to find it?   But I did notice the Heidseik set on its own is listed there for $39.92

I just searched for "Heidsieck" and it came up as the first of three items.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 24, 2012, 08:01:29 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 07:56:37 PM
I just searched for "Heidsieck" and it came up as the first of three items.

Aha!  That did it.  Thank you.  Although it's odd that it didn't come up with any of the others attempts (including a search for every EMI Beethoven recording).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 08:02:29 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 24, 2012, 08:01:29 PM
Aha!  That did it.  Thank you.  Although it's odd that it didn't come up with any of the others attempts (including a search for every EMI Beethoven recording).

Maybe EMI and EMI France are separate labels in BRO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 24, 2012, 08:17:51 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 08:02:29 PM
Maybe EMI and EMI France are separate labels in BRO.

The advanced search doesn't offer EMI France as a separate option. 
I also tried Cluytens (since his symphonies are part of the set) and it didn't show. 

However, I found it and ordered it.  Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fafner on July 24, 2012, 08:22:13 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 24, 2012, 08:17:51 PM
The advanced search doesn't offer EMI France as a separate option. 
I also tried Cluytens (since his symphonies are part of the set) and it didn't show. 

However, I found it and ordered it.  Thanks for your help.

Excellent.  The Cluytens cycle is also well worth having (I have them as separate discs and will be selling them off).  The Hungarian Quartet is also legendary, but mono.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on July 24, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
i just heard op31/2 with hj lim and was actually very impressed...maybe this is one of the 'few' good ones in the cycle? idk

on the other hand i couldn't continue the hammerklavier after 2 minutes without rolling my eyes
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 25, 2012, 05:03:09 PM
FYI, there are two high-def YouTube clips of HJ Lim playing Beethoven: Moonlight adagio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc0adcAKWrc) and from Les adieux (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFcrTycJlD0).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 26, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
On MusicWeb today, http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm) a sort of positive review of Lim's cycle, although even here at the end must come the admission that it's not really that great after all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 26, 2012, 06:52:18 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 26, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
On MusicWeb today, http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm) a sort of positive review of Lim's cycle, although even here at the end must come the admission that it's not really that great after all.

I was a little insulted with the insinuation that "young collectors" will like the set. I'm at least two years younger than HJ Lim is, though I don't advertise my age when writing for MW...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 26, 2012, 07:35:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 26, 2012, 06:52:18 PM
I was a little insulted with the insinuation that "young collectors" will like the set. I'm at least two years younger than HJ Lim is, though I don't advertise my age when writing for MW...

Ah, young you are in years, but old are you in the ways of the force.


I just took the phrase to mean tech savvy people who don't have that big a collection and may not have any other recordings of the Thirty Two--which would usually be people of your generation and not mine (let's just say I'm old enough to have children older than you, although I actually have no children at all.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 01:41:32 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 26, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
On MusicWeb today, http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm) a sort of positive review of Lim's cycle, although even here at the end must come the admission that it's not really that great after all.

When have you ever seen a LvB Sonata set reviewed truly negatively? The reviewers always cop out and, "awed by the achievement" (look for that word in the review, which I've not yet red; it's sure to pop up) give a cowardly thumbs up. Especially when it's CD review amateur-hour.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on July 27, 2012, 01:52:55 AM
A timely reminder here that the meaning of amateur is someone doing it for the love of it, as opposed to a professional doing it for money.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 02:01:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 01:41:32 AM
When have you ever seen a LvB Sonata set reviewed truly negatively? The reviewers always cop out and, "awed by the achievement" (look for that word in the review, which I've not yet red; it's sure to pop up) give a cowardly thumbs up. Especially when it's CD review amateur-hour.  ;)

Oh yes! How right I was.  Best sentence of the paragraph I glimpsed at, though: "You may want to find someone who can tell you different things about those more mysterious and enigmatic passages - Schiff, or who has a thicker patina of life experience - an extra layer of introspection with which to temper the impetuosity which sometimes threatens to engulf some of Lim's sonata movements - Brendel."

Wow... where's the editor, when you need him? The whole thing is full of hedge-words (not committing to a feeling, either for lack of having one or out of cowardliness or laziness; i.e. why would one ever use the word "perhaps" in a sentence about one's own reaction to something?!) and unidiomatic expressions that should have been found out if little Sally Draper had had her essay on "My Car Trip Listening to Beethoven". That harms a review, even where the sentiment is right, or insight to be found.

QuoteAfter living with this set for a few weeks my general feelings regarding the 'vibe' of this collection are fairly positive, so let's have a few critical comments out of the way first. Even as a cycle without extras, a complete Beethoven sonatas set on 8 CDs would seem to be a bit tight. These are all well filled discs and speeds are swift, but Lim has missed out the sonatas No. 19 in G minor op. 49 no. 1 and No. 20 in G major op. 49 no. 2, stating "As the sonatas Op. 49 Nos. 1 and 2 were meant as exercises for students and published against the composer's will". HJ continues, "I have chosen to respect Beethoven's intentions by leaving them out of this great cycle." I don't know about you, but all this does is make me want to listen to the Op. 49 pair to remind myself of what I'm missing. If we all went around respecting the wishes of composers long dead there might, for instance, be mass withdrawals of ancient sacred music being used for profane purposes, and advertising execs would be more than merely bereft. Lim also adds that "I have organised the remaining sonatas by theme." This is another mildly controversial topic which I promise not to bore on about, at least not for too long. Many Beethoven sonata cycles are ordered pretty much chronologically, and mixing things up as they have been here is interesting and intriguing. If you look at the full track listing you will see the eight themes into which this set has been ordered, and I remain a touch resistant to having subjective associations applied in blanket fashion to individual works let alone whole clutches of sonatas. Yes, there are easy connections to be made, such as 'Nature' to the 'Pastoral' sonata, but the whole point in Beethoven's sonatas is that each one is a myriad cosmos of contrasting messages, the meanings of which will, or should be unique to the listener. Lim writes extensive notes for each album setting out her thoughts on the sonatas and these are usefully insightful, but even so giving a title like 'Heroic Ideals' to any set of these pieces would be like painting the Winged Victory of Samothrace bright red just because that's the way you happen to think its visual semantics are best expressed. I reserve the right to listen to this music without labels. Such titles point us in one direction and exclude too much, and my only real concern is that the new audiences attracted by this brave young star will be sent along too narrow a pathway when approaching these pieces.

The piano sound for this collection is, on a first superficial listen, perhaps not quite as immediate and stunning as one might expect from such a vibrantly profiled project. The acoustic plays a significant role in the general picture, which lends a chamber-music rather than a concert-hall feel to the music. Lim does however frequently play in concert-hall fashion, so the sonic message is a bit mixed. This is by no means to say that this is a poor production in terms of sound quality, but it is by no means the most pleasant piano sound I've heard. Lim plays on a Yamaha piano, which I am told are modelled somewhat on Steinway instruments. The reputed brightness you might expect is not extreme or annoying, though this is a piano with quite an effervescent character. Turn up the volume reasonably and you will be provided with plenty of detail, rich lows and a sparkling treble. Your ears and mind soon accept the realities of the sound, and there is no real problem if you are prepared to lean back and take what is given. Even the encroachment of a slightly tubby acoustic is better than a fatiguing overly-dry sound or too close-up perspective.

Argh.

Quote from: The new erato on July 27, 2012, 01:52:55 AM
A timely reminder here that the meaning of amateur is someone doing it for the love of it, as opposed to a professional doing it for money.

As a part-time amateur, I'm (painfully) aware of the meaning and connotations, but I think you idealize the difference when you describe it like that. The amateur does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but doesn't get paid for it. The professional does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but does get paid for it.
You could imply or assume that one is steered by love-of-the-thing-itself, and the other by greed, but that's no likely true. More likely true is that both love what they do, and one has -- through luck or ability or both -- managed to make others value his or her contributions enough to be paid for it.
In this case I wanted to point to another difference: The professional usually has an editor to content with, and certain quality controls have to be met... and is beset by a feeling of gratitude (i.e. towards having received a complete Beethoven Sonata set) that a professional wouldn't bother to feel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on July 27, 2012, 02:22:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 02:01:12 AM
As an part-time amateur, I'm (painfully) aware of the meaning and connotations, but I think you idealize the difference when you describe it like that. The amateur does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but doesn't get paid for it. The professional does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but does get paid for it.
You could imply or assume that one is steered by love-of-the-thing-itself, and the other by greed, but that's no likely true. More likely true is that both love what they do, and one has -- through luck or ability or both -- managed to make others value his or her contributions enough to be paid for it.
I know. And I won't get the Lim set. But still I think there's a lot to be said for amateurish enthusiams; we've all been there and done that (mye love for classical music was awakened by Emerson, Lake and Palmer.....). And us "seasoned listeners" hardly pay much attention to more than a very few, well-understood reviewers anyway.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 27, 2012, 06:53:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 02:01:12 AM
Oh yes! How right I was.  Best sentence of the paragraph I glimpsed at, though: "You may want to find someone who can tell you different things about those more mysterious and enigmatic passages - Schiff, or who has a thicker patina of life experience - an extra layer of introspection with which to temper the impetuosity which sometimes threatens to engulf some of Lim's sonata movements - Brendel."

Wow... where's the editor, when you need him? The whole thing is full of hedge-words (not committing to a feeling, either for lack of having one or out of cowardliness or laziness; i.e. why would one ever use the word "perhaps" in a sentence about one's own reaction to something?!) and unidiomatic expressions that should have been found out if little Sally Draper had had her essay on "My Car Trip Listening to Beethoven". That harms a review, even where the sentiment is right, or insight to be found.

You've written for MW... Rob generally does little more than insert links to other reviews and replace my semicolons with full stops. MusicWeb has a house style, very English I think, of being as polite as possible. I've learned how to read "through" the reviews to see what the CDs' merits really are; certain types of praise indicate dullness, certain types indicate willful oddity, and certain types indicate slipshod technique (usually the phrase "makes a noble effort" is involved). It's all very frustrating, and it goes back to the English culture's need to cut the crap and say what they really think - Gordon Ramsay doesn't have to write CD reviews, but he'd certainly be a change. Actually, he'd be Dave Hurwitz.

Anyway, Dominy Clements seems in this case to have actually liked a lot of the set; there's that bit about how he listens to it in the car for pleasure (I treat Gilels that way). But, maybe because I'm brash and young, or maybe because I'm Texan, I'm not gonna hold back. Luckily Len is used to my flame-throwing; he even once let me know he was going to defend me if I got in trouble for one of 'em (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Feb11/Siem_2564678047.htm). (The artist did... his publicist had him shut down his Twitter account for a year. Gulp.)

Yes, MW are amateurs, but few of the critics are genuine amateurs like me. A few are sometime conductors or otherwise genuine musicians/teachers - e.g., Carla Rees and Christopher Howell.

It has definitely been hard overcoming the issue of, "I'm really grateful to have gotten this CD for free so I'll be nice about it." I've learned to sample self-published or tiny-tiny-label discs before requesting to review them, because the psychological pressure of "aw Jane Flautist is going to be so sad when she reads this" is greater than it is with, say, EMI. Of course, the other way to get around that is simple - to be a good reviewer, and to write constructive criticism rather than destructive, the kind of thing where an artist will understand "he knew what I intended, at least." For an example of how a reviewer should not address the critic-artist relationship, it's hard to top this cannon-blast from the Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-16185/?search=1).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 07:13:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2012, 06:53:38 AM
You've written for MW...

Yes, I know the joint... which is one of the reasons I'm frustrated with it. And I don't think it's necessarily British, because the old editor at Seen & Heard was cut from a different cloth, altogether... not fuddy-duddy-anything-goes, but with a strict desire for quality. (Though it's a tough fight when you haven't got money to reward good 'behavior', as it were.)

QuoteAnyway, Dominy Clements seems in this case to have actually liked a lot of the set; there's that bit about how he listens to it in the car for pleasure (I treat Gilels that way). But, maybe because I'm brash and young, or maybe because I'm Texan, I'm not gonna hold back. Luckily Len is used to my flame-throwing; he even once let me know he was going to defend me if I got in trouble for one of 'em (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Feb11/Siem_2564678047.htm).

That's a great, well written opening paragraph!

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on July 27, 2012, 10:14:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 07:13:16 AM

That's a great, well written opening paragraph!
Reminds me of a review of a Julio Iglesias concert; "no seat was dry".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 27, 2012, 11:46:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 07:13:16 AM
Yes, I know the joint... which is one of the reasons I'm frustrated with it. And I don't think it's necessarily British, because the old editor at Seen & Heard was cut from a different cloth, altogether... not fuddy-duddy-anything-goes, but with a strict desire for quality. (Though it's a tough fight when you haven't got money to reward good 'behavior', as it were.)

That's a great, well written opening paragraph!

Thanks!

I associate their style with Britishness because I also encountered it with my professors over there, and with people describing restaurants, and so on. The most damning insult available to one of my classmates was "it's a bit crap, isn't it?" But don't know the S&H side of things. And hey, I'd write reviews for dollars if it were possible, but there aren't too many people who get to do such a pleasant job... still prefer writing for amateurs to not writing at all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 27, 2012, 11:50:35 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2012, 11:46:56 AM
Thanks!

I associate their style with Britishness because I also encountered it with my professors over there, and with people describing restaurants, and so on. The most damning insult available to one of my classmates was "it's a bit crap, isn't it?" But don't know the S&H side of things. And hey, I'd write reviews for dollars if it were possible, but there aren't too many people who get to do such a pleasant job... still prefer writing for amateurs to not writing at all.

Do a review blog and monetize it. You're welcome.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 27, 2012, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on July 27, 2012, 11:50:35 AM
Do a review blog and monetize it. You're welcome.
Watch it or I'll charge you to read my GMG posts!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 27, 2012, 11:59:54 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2012, 11:58:22 AM
Watch it or I'll charge you to read my GMG posts!

I'm already paying to read them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2012, 12:00:12 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2012, 11:58:22 AM
Watch it or I'll charge you to read my GMG posts!

Wait — Dave hasn't been voluntarily paying you per post?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 27, 2012, 12:00:59 PM
These Gold Subscribers throwing their weight around. Hmph!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 27, 2012, 12:01:20 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on July 27, 2012, 11:59:54 AM
I'm already paying to read them.
Touché, and I to read yours. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on July 27, 2012, 12:01:56 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2012, 12:01:20 PM
Touché, and I to read yours. :)

Oh, yeah...sorry about that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on July 27, 2012, 03:08:07 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 07:13:16 AM
Yes, I know the joint... which is one of the reasons I'm frustrated with it. And I don't think it's necessarily British, because the old editor at Seen & Heard was cut from a different cloth, altogether... not fuddy-duddy-anything-goes, but with a strict desire for quality. (Though it's a tough fight when you haven't got money to reward good 'behavior', as it were.)

Perhaps, but they do get paid in plastic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 03:19:34 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 27, 2012, 03:08:07 PM
Perhaps, but they do get paid in plastic.

That attitude is precisely the problem. It's not payment, it's the precondition of the job. It's like a restaurant reviewer just being glad to get some food. Ought not be that way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 27, 2012, 05:22:05 PM
Well, I didn't expect to get my laugh of the day from a link off of this thread!   Brian, that was a great review, as much for what it didn't say as what it did.

I do think Hurwitz was wrong about the Kalliwoda recording he mentions, btw.

Thread duty--listened today to CDs 2 and 3 of Guy's first volume (and CD 1 last night).  Everything seemed well done; only flaw being some minor audience noise in one sonata.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on July 29, 2012, 09:39:41 PM
just finished going through the last few spots id missed from the paul lewis cycle [sonatas #11-14 and 26-28]

the early ones really bored me, even the moonlight.  26 was really good and the last movement really took off

but 27-28 i thought reached sublime peaks i havent heard in a long time. as good as his hammerklavier
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 30, 2012, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 27, 2012, 05:22:05 PM
Well, I didn't expect to get my laugh of the day from a link off of this thread!   Brian, that was a great review, as much for what it didn't say as what it did.
Thanks! Though at the time I feared I was saying too much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 30, 2012, 03:56:51 PM
I've compared Brautigam and Heidsieck in the second sonata. First of all, it should be noted that this is a wonderful work, with a spellbinding slow movement. It is in this particular movement that the difference is most remarkable. Both artists make their point by virtue of a clearly discernible musical plan. Heidsieck is much more pensive and hesitant in the Largo appassionato, making it sound like a mysterious quest. Overall they are both entirely valid and totally satisfying. But Heidsieck plumbs much greater depths.

I have few comparisons on hand (Ashkenazy and Roberts), and I don't think these two would make me change my mind. I'm curious to hear what Arrau and Brendel come up with in this sonata.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 30, 2012, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: André on July 30, 2012, 03:56:51 PM
I've compared Brautigam and Heidsieck in the second sonata. First of all, it should be noted that this is a wonderful work, with a spellbinding slow movement. It is in this particular movement that the difference is most remarkable. Both artists make their point by virtue of a clearly discernible musical plan. Heidsieck is much more pensive and hesitant in the Largo appassionato, making it sound like a mysterious quest. Overall they are both entirely valid and totally satisfying. But Heidsieck plumbs much greater depths.

I have few comparisons on hand (Ashkenazy and Roberts), and I don't think these two would make me change my mind. I'm curious to hear what Arrau and Brendel come up with in this sonata.

I like what Brautigam does with the largo there. It makes me think of a moody, angry, upset teenager. Beethoven was about 26 when he wrote that music. 

Arrau's is at the complete opposite extreme. If you think Heidsieck is deep then wait till you hear what Arrau does!

If your exploring this one, others that stick in my mind for being interesting are Schnabel, and one very good one from Horszowki on Arbiter. And Kempff mono.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 31, 2012, 02:53:23 AM
I love the way that Hans Richter-Haaser plays this work. Listening to the Brautigam Largo now and will seek out the Arrau but not sure which version.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2012, 06:14:27 AM
I meant the Philips Analogue one. I have that Richter Hasser CD but I've never played it. Will do so this evening. You know French EMI recently released a selection of his records in a bargain box?

And I forgot the one which is maybe the best of the lot -- Maria Grinberg.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on July 31, 2012, 08:28:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2012, 03:19:34 PM
That attitude is precisely the problem. It's not payment, it's the precondition of the job. It's like a restaurant reviewer just being glad to get some food. Ought not be that way.

What way should it be?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 31, 2012, 08:36:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 30, 2012, 11:31:11 PM
I like what Brautigam does with the largo there. It makes me think of a moody, angry, upset teenager. Beethoven was about 26 when he wrote that music. 

Maybe not quite besides the point, as the title of the movement is Largo appassionato.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 31, 2012, 05:01:46 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 31, 2012, 08:36:44 AM
Maybe not quite besides the point, as the title of the movement is Largo appassionato.

Good point. But doesn't that strike you as an oxymoron? Tempo-wise, what is an interpreter to make of that?

Arrau is the first that came to mind when marvelling at the extreme differences in approach between Brautigam and Heidsieck. I'm also interested in Brendel, an artist who favors a ruminative but at the same time unsentimental, sometimes clipped phrasing in Beethoven sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 31, 2012, 05:16:42 PM
Quote from: André on July 31, 2012, 05:01:46 PM
Good point. But doesn't that strike you as an oxymoron? Tempo-wise, what is an interpreter to make of that?


I would take the second word as a cue for the overall dynamics, and not the tempo.  Perhaps the fortes would be more fortissimo and the pianos more pianissimo--or perhaps some sort of syncopation that would suggest being off balance.   One can be passionate with deliberation, after all. 

But you've made me curious;  I might make a little listening project of it tonight or tomorrow morning to compare at least some of the various performances I have (Kempff, Brendel III, Lewis, Bavouzet, Schiff, Backhaus, Arrau,  Gulda for the complete cycles; will have to dig through the CD rack to see if any individual recital discs include this one).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 31, 2012, 05:23:36 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 31, 2012, 05:16:42 PM
I would take the second word as a cue for the overall dynamics, and not the tempo.  Perhaps the fortes would be more fortissimo and the pianos more pianissimo--or perhaps some sort of syncopation that would suggest being off balance.   One can be passionate with deliberation, after all. 

But you've made me curious;  I might make a little listening project of it tonight or tomorrow morning to compare at least some of the various performances I have (Kempff, Brendel III, Lewis, Bavouzet, Schiff, Backhaus, Arrau,  Gulda for the complete cycles; will have to dig through the CD rack to see if any individual recital discs include this one).

I'll be most interested to hear your thoughts on this. Of course we're talking one movement only, but this appears to be one of Beethoven's most curious and searching creations. 200 years hence, its interpretation seems to defy conventional interpretive wisdom. Not to mention that your list of interpreters seems like a catalogue of widely different interpreters. BTW what is Brendel III ? I thought he had recorded the 32 only twice.

Thanks in advance, you're under contract  ;).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 31, 2012, 05:24:12 PM
Op. 2/2 - I think three pianists nail this one - Annie Fischer, Schnabel and Hungerford.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 31, 2012, 06:15:01 PM
Well, you want me to declare bankrupcy? I have none of those, and I suppose they only come in expensive Compleat Boxes ?  :o

Anything on youtube by any chance?  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 31, 2012, 06:24:44 PM
Quote from: André on July 31, 2012, 05:23:36 PM
I'll be most interested to hear your thoughts on this. Of course we're talking one movement only, but this appears to be one of Beethoven's most curious and searching creations. 200 years hence, its interpretation seems to defy conventional interpretive wisdom. Not to mention that your list of interpreters seems like a catalogue of widely different interpreters. BTW what is Brendel III ? I thought he had recorded the 32 only twice.

Thanks in advance, you're under contract  ;).

Brendel recorded the New Testament twice for Philips, once in analog and once in all digital, which is the one I have.   The analog cycle is available in a box with the concertos, and is the source of two Philips Duos that I know of--one of "Favorite" sonatas (ie, the usual suspects), which I don't have,  and one with the late sonatas, which I have.  The digital cycle is available as a box set, but I don't know of any smaller selection made from it.  A lot of people seem to prefer the analog, but my OCD does not extend far enough to making me purchase TWO complete cycles by the same pianist.

Meanwhile,  on another tangent,   I now listening to the second volume of F F Guy's cycle in progress.  The Waldstein just ended, and I have to say I don't remember any performance of the last movement being as intensely lyrical and intensely soft as Guy's.  I'll probably have to do a comparison of that one before long to see if my memory is at fault.

BTW, I see I listed Bavouzet as a cycle.  He is of course still a cycle in progress, not a completed one.

Quote from: André on July 31, 2012, 06:15:01 PM
Well, you want me to declare bankrupcy? I have none of those, and I suppose they only come in expensive Compleat Boxes ?  :o

Anything on youtube by any chance?  ;D


don't worry, I don't have any of them either.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on July 31, 2012, 06:35:30 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 31, 2012, 06:24:44 PM
Brendel recorded the New Testament twice for Philips, once in analog and once in all digital, which is the one I have.   The analog cycle is available in a box with the concertos, and is the source of two Philips Duos that I know of--one of "Favorite" sonatas (ie, the usual suspects), which I don't have,  and one with the late sonatas, which I have.  The digital cycle is available as a box set, but I don't know of any smaller selection made from it.  A lot of people seem to prefer the analog, but my OCD does not extend far enough to making me purchase TWO complete cycles by the same pianist.
I'm sure a fair amount of people here has all his three complete cycles. I have them and I'm not even a Beethovenian! I'm a Brendelian, though.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 31, 2012, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: André on July 31, 2012, 06:15:01 PM
Well, you want me to declare bankrupcy? I have none of those, and I suppose they only come in expensive Compleat Boxes ?  :o

:D

No, they are all available (or at least were) in single or double CD sets.

QuoteAnything on youtube by any chance?  ;D

Not sure, as I don't even look there when I am seeking classical music to listen to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2012, 12:36:53 AM
Quote from: Holden on July 31, 2012, 02:53:23 AM
I love the way that Hans Richter-Haaser plays this work.

Yes tremendous. I like this type of strong performance a lot. It would be good to hear Richter-Haaser play Haydn, but I don't thin anything exists on record.

I want to listen again to Pollini's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on August 08, 2012, 11:04:40 PM
Is there a prize for sitting through all 28:43 minutes of Korstick playing the Adagio of the hammerklavier?  I must say that, despite being of an impatient disposition and liking my Beethoven highly caffeinated, I as pretty impressed.  Somehow he puts enough variety of tone and pacing into it to stop it being a dull trudge.  Anyone else listened to it.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 09, 2012, 02:08:41 AM
I've only heard the first movement, which gave me the impression of being slighly pressed, not letting the silences be heard, Pollini style. It's not a style I much like, but what you say about the adagio is intriguing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 09, 2012, 03:45:35 AM
Quote from: Fred on August 08, 2012, 11:04:40 PM
Is there a prize for sitting through all 28:43 minutes of Korstick playing the Adagio of the hammerklavier?  I must say that, despite being of an impatient disposition and liking my Beethoven highly caffeinated, I as pretty impressed.  Somehow he puts enough variety of tone and pacing into it to stop it being a dull trudge.  Anyone else listened to it.

I just heard it for the first time (the disc has been sitting in the "to listen to pile" for several weeks), and have lived long enough to tell the tale  ;D I need to hear it again, but it did not make an favorable initial impression. I think he loses the musical thread; it becomes disjointed at this pace. For a caffeine jolt, I'm playing Lim's Adagio. At 12:50 it couldn't be more different, and I much prefer the music at this speed (not much faster than Gulda actually).

Quote from: Mandryka on August 09, 2012, 02:08:41 AM
I've only heard the first movement, which gave me the impression of being slighly pressed not letting the silences be heard....

That was my impression too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 09, 2012, 08:03:16 AM
I listened to the whole Korstick performance once, while having lunch, in the garden, through a portable dock via spotify, so these comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. But . . .

I thought the adagio was what distinguished it from being just another Hammerklavier performance with no real artistic reason for existing on record. I didn't have a problem listening to the whole movement despite the extreme length.

I thought that, contrary to all expectations, the passionate quality remained, partly because of the dynamic contrasts (though he doesn't have an enormous dynamic range), and mainly From  his sense of the drama, the tension, between the voices. He has a great way of sectioning the movement, you know exactly where you are at all times, and that I think prevents the thing falling apart at slow speeds. Melodically, I never felt that the tunes were lost because they were played so slowly, but others may be more melodically aware than me.

And obviously the tempo gives it quirkiness value and, more importantly, is very revealing of detail. When he does speed up, in that brief moment just before the end where the music almost falls apart, a pre-echo of the fugue maybe, he's outstanding, unforgettable. And for me that three seconds justifies the whole 20+minutes. What I'm not sure about is whether there are any other payoffs, or whether they're payoffs enough for more sensible listeners than me.

In short, I liked the adagio tremendously and I think it's a really valuable performance.

The first two movements seemed less interesting, just another fast op106. I want to listen to the fugue again before commenting, except to say it sounded very interesting.

Does anyone have the booklet? Does he say why he took the adagio so slowly. Strange that, given that I, II and IV are taken fast.

Oh and by the way, thanks Fred for drawing my attention to this one. It was fun.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on August 09, 2012, 11:52:38 PM
The booklet has an interview with Korstick in which the interviewer mentions this is the slowest adagio in recording history!   In response Korstick says that, in relation to the first movement and last movement he's just following the metronome markings which he thinks are correct (having regard to the "allegro" marking).  Further, if Beethoven had wanted the pianist to be careful in these movements he would have written Allegro Moderato. However, he seems to think that the metronome marking for the adagio is wrong.  Beethoven heard the music too fast in his head.  Indeed, if he'd intended it to be played at the metronome markings he would have labelled it Andante con moto.
Further, Korstick claims he recorded the adagio in one take!
Anyway, I love the first movement.  I think Rosen said that in the hammerklavier Beethoven creates orchestral effects by making the pianist strain to achieve something he can't quite attain (or something like that).  The pianist has to sound like he is wrestling with the music - and losing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: pbarach on August 10, 2012, 01:16:09 AM
Rosen didn't have the technique when he recorded #29 to do anything OTHER than strain.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 10, 2012, 01:48:11 AM
Here's my favourite Hammerklavier I (Yudina 1954). The timing is slightly slower than  Korstick and somehow the phrasing is more interesting, there's less of a feeling of rush:

http://www.youtube.com/v/aQvsvr-jL4E

Richter-Haaser is good in it too, but he's not on youtube. And Annie Fischer.

Has anyone heard the Op 106 here?

(http://www.classicalsource.com/images/upload/6559_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on August 10, 2012, 03:25:05 PM
Korstick also makes the point in the booklet that a lot of people play the first movement of the Hammerklavier slowly because (frankly) that is all they can do.  Must say I've been pretty bowled over by what I've heard of his Beethoven.  Absolutely love the arietta. Builds to a great explosion of riotous joy in the "boogie-woogie" variation (which most pianists just trudge through carefully) without which the movement makes no sense at all.  I often get annoyed listening to Beethoven sonatas because I know that technical limitations are guiding the interpretive choices.  But Korstick sounds like he can do anything he likes - and does.

P.S.  Rosen's first Hammerklavier is dull as ditch-water.  But his second? third? are pretty titanic and worth a listen. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 10, 2012, 10:41:34 PM
The Hammerklavier here inspred Berio to write some music for Lucchessini. I've been playing it a lot and quite franckly I don't know what to make of it. I wonder if anyone else knows it.

(http://www.downtownbooksonline.com/images/Mary/0523/IMG_0009.JPG)

Berio's choice of pianists is interesting. He's also been impressed by Francesco Tristano Schlime.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on August 10, 2012, 11:22:01 PM
i just heard the hammerklavier with backhaus [decca cycle], and all i can say is wow

when it started my heart sunk because of the measured tempo, especially since ive been listening to brautigam a lot, but the man convinced me that other pianists play this too fast [lol i know].  some very interesting tempo relationships between subjects/transitions...and the depth of tone!  when the first mvmt was over i went 'ok. you win this one'

the second mvmt was more within my parameters of acceptable energy for a 'classic recording' and had some very nice surprises

the adagio on the other hand had me sit up and take notice.  i heard none of the tragic weepiness that almost always reduces me to a babbling mess for 15 minutes.  here it sounded curiously modern, angular, reserved but oh so dignified and utterly beautiful.

and then the finale rolled by.  oh god.  how is pianism like this even possible?  i never thought i would hear this monster of a movement played in a way i could not criticise.  the speed.  the power.  the intellect.  all i could do when it was over was nod..."and everyone said 'amen' " :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 05:36:05 AM
Quote from: xochitl on August 10, 2012, 11:22:01 PM
i just heard the hammerklavier with backhaus [decca cycle], and all i can say is wow

when it started my heart sunk because of the measured tempo, especially since ive been listening to brautigam a lot, but the man convinced me that other pianists play this too fast [lol i know].  some very interesting tempo relationships between subjects/transitions...and the depth of tone!  when the first mvmt was over i went 'ok. you win this one'

the second mvmt was more within my parameters of acceptable energy for a 'classic recording' and had some very nice surprises

the adagio on the other hand had me sit up and take notice.  i heard none of the tragic weepiness that almost always reduces me to a babbling mess for 15 minutes.  here it sounded curiously modern, angular, reserved but oh so dignified and utterly beautiful.

and then the finale rolled by.  oh god.  how is pianism like this even possible?  i never thought i would hear this monster of a movement played in a way i could not criticise.  the speed.  the power.  the intellect.  all i could do when it was over was nod..."and everyone said 'amen' " :)

I can't remember the stereo Hammerklavier (is that the Decca one?)  but I know the mono studio recording  well, and I'd say much the same for the adagio there. I also don't mind the pace of the allegro at all, I think it;'s a positively good thing to play it like that in fact.

Even the mono was made relatively late in his career. What is the earliest Backhaus Hammerklavier on record? Is there one earlier than the studio mono one?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 05:58:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 05:36:05 AM
I can't remember the stereo Hammerklavier (is that the Decca one?)  but I know the mono studio recording  well, and I'd say much the same for the adagio there. I also don't mind the pace of the allegro at all, I think it;'s a positively good thing to play it like that in fact.

Even the mono was made relatively late in his career. What is the earliest Backhaus Hammerklavier on record? Is there one earlier than the studio mono one?

Backhaus' Hammerklavier was recorded in 1953, if memory serves.  He did not live to re-record it in stereo (it is the only sonata missing from the stereo cycle).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 06:03:23 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 05:58:36 AM
Backhaus' Hammerklavier was recorded in 1953, if memory serves.

Pretty close. April 1952 actually (according to the booklet in the box).

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 06:27:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 06:03:23 AM
Pretty close. April 1952 actually (according to the booklet in the box).

Sarge

One of the injustices of western civilization the Decca will only sell the stereo cycle + Hammerklavier. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 11, 2012, 06:30:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 06:27:40 AM
One of the injustices of western civilization the Decca will only sell the stereo cycle + Hammerklavier.

The mono was available through Demonoid, but that ship has sunk.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 06:33:49 AM
Quote from: George on August 11, 2012, 06:30:03 AM
The mono was available through Demonoid, but that ship has sunk.

Those recording should all be out of copyright.  Is no one selling or otherwise distributing lp transfers?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 11, 2012, 06:44:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 06:33:49 AM
Those recording should all be out of copyright.  Is no one selling or otherwise distributing lp transfers?

I believe Pristine has begun, but I don't like their work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 11, 2012, 06:55:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 10, 2012, 10:41:34 PMThe Hammerklavier here inspred Berio to write some music for Lucchessini. I've been playing it a lot and quite franckly I don't know what to make of it. I wonder if anyone else knows it.


Knows what, Lucchesini's first 106 recording, or his Berio?  I've got both.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 06:56:42 AM
Right, I remember now about the mono op 106 in the stereo box. But, what about earlier ones? There's a live I think, but I don't know the date.

Maybe I should upload the mono cycle somewhere. If it really is unavailable I'll do that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 07:00:11 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2012, 06:55:07 AM

Knows what, Lucchesini's first 106 recording, or his Berio?  I've got both.

And what do you think of the op 106 there, the first movement especially?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 11, 2012, 07:44:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 07:00:11 AMAnd what do you think of the op 106 there, the first movement especially?


It's not as good as his later recording.  The first movement is large scale, but too long and slow for my taste.  I will say that my view on his softer playing in the opener has changed a bit - now I find that I like the contrasts, whereas when I first heard it about six years ago I did not like it as much.  The sound is a bit too harsh and steely, too, not allowing Lucchesini's tone to come through as in his later recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2012, 07:44:43 AM

It's not as good as his later recording.  The first movement is large scale, but too long and slow for my taste.  I will say that my view on his softer playing in the opener has changed a bit - now I find that I like the contrasts, whereas when I first heard it about six years ago I did not like it as much.  The sound is a bit too harsh and steely, too, not allowing Lucchesini's tone to come through as in his later recordings.

I think I agree with you. The contrasts are interesting and I think there are some really nice moments when he plays quietly. It's a shame that the louder passages are so hard-toned (partly a problem of the Fazioli maybe, though  the live one is richer in the bass, and that helps) Somehow he doesn't tell a good story, he doesn't lead you along, so it's a hard slog for the whole 12 minutes. But still, each time I play it I find something new to like. The live one seems  more successful, and less interesting.

I'll just add here that I've been listening to all three Kempff recordings of Op 106 -- you can see I'm on a Hammerklavier binge. First, they're so consistent! Second, What a wonderful, wonderful interpretation. This is one of the best ones for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 11, 2012, 05:59:15 PM
I've had a selection of the Kempff mono cycle for many years. Each sonata in it (IIRC 8, 14, 17, 21, 23, 24, 26, 29) was more interesting than the stereo remake and quite good sounding. This was on a pair of Quintessence cassettes, so obviously of limited sonic appeal and it still held my attention as very few others have.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 06:36:18 PM
Quote from: André on August 11, 2012, 05:59:15 PM
I've had a selection of the Kempff mono cycle for many years. Each sonata in it (IIRC 8, 14, 17, 21, 23, 24, 26, 29) was more interesting than the stereo remake and quite good sounding. This was on a pair of Quintessence cassettes, so obviously of limited sonic appeal and it still held my attention as very few others have.

In case you are interested, there is a new Regis release of the Kempff mono cycle.  I ordered it from Prestoclassical.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Regis/RRC9010

The release notes indicate it was remastered, so I think there is a chance it will sound better than the more expensive DG edition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 11, 2012, 06:51:00 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 06:36:18 PM
In case you are interested, there is a new Regis release of the Kempff mono cycle.  I ordered it from Prestoclassical.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Regis/RRC9010

The release notes indicate it was remastered, so I think there is a chance it will sound better than the more expensive DG edition.

I'd think about cancelling the order. The sound quality is extremely variable and conversations I've had with people who own the DG set say that their sound is fine. Listening to the DG on Spotify confirms this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 11, 2012, 06:52:54 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 11, 2012, 06:51:00 PM
I'd think about cancelling the order. The sound quality is extremely variable and conversations I've had with people who own the DG set say that their sound is fine. Listening to the DG on Spotify confirms this.

Yes and the chances of Regis getting to work with the master tapes is zero. From what I have heard from a veteran CD buyer from Tower (now at a used store) is that Regis isn't a very reputable label.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 07:08:51 PM
Too late to cancel anything, it has already shipped.  I have a number of Regis releases and I have never been less than pleased with what I have heard. 

I had the Kempff mono from DG and sold it years ago for reasons I can't fathom.  But somewhere I have FLACs I made from it so I'll be able to see if there is a significant difference in audio quality.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 11, 2012, 07:11:30 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 07:08:51 PM
To late to cancel anything, it has already shipped.  I have a number of Regis releases and I have never been less than pleased with what I have heard. 

The ones I have compared to their original issues (some of the Richter ones) were remarkably close and probably the same mastering. Hopefully you'll get the same with the Kempff.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on August 11, 2012, 07:14:29 PM
Quote from: George on August 11, 2012, 06:52:54 PM
Yes and the chances of Regis getting to work with the master tapes is zero. From what I have heard from a veteran CD buyer from Tower (now at a used store) is that Regis isn't a very reputable label.

Regis has also released many Richter's recordings.  Do you have any of the Regis' Richters?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 11, 2012, 07:22:18 PM
I have a couple of Regis CDs, and while one of them had a performance  that was sonically bad,  the original recording was by Melodiya, so I blamed the Bolshies. :)  Even then, I was not sorry I purchased it; the other performance was good on all levels, including sonics (Shostakovich Symphony 15),  and the acoustically poor recording was at least of historical interest-- also DSCH:  Oistrakh performing the Second Violin Concerto, and going by the recording dates, which was within a couple of weeks of the concerto's world premiere,  this must have been the very first recording of the concerto.  The sonic flaw, I might add, was mostly a question of balance:  the soloist seemed to be at one end of the hall with the mikes, and the orchestra at the extreme  other end of the hall, making them seemed recessed to the point of being inaudible at times,  which Oistrakh was unnaturally forward.    And since it was (I think) mono,  that would have to have been the fault of the original recording engineers and not the (re)mastering, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 11, 2012, 07:31:19 PM
I have some Richter on Regis, but I couldn't compare it to any other issues of the Richter recordings since I don't collect different masterings...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
Quote from: George on August 11, 2012, 06:52:54 PM
Yes and the chances of Regis getting to work with the master tapes is zero. From what I have heard from a veteran CD buyer from Tower (now at a used store) is that Regis isn't a very reputable label.

Regis licenses and re-issues titles from the major labels.  Same procedure as Testament, Brilliant, Newton classics, etc.   I don't see what could be disreputable about that.   They say their issue is based on a new transfer, so I suppose that means that DG ran the tapes for them and sent over the raw conversion for Regis to tinker with.  With a mono tape, the only thing they can really do is adjust the equalization and patch up drop-outs or clumsy splices.  I hope they kept those idiotic noise suppression systems away from it. 

Unless the transfer is from LPs.  At this point, those might be in better shape than the tapes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 11, 2012, 07:59:59 PM
Regis, like Membran reissue plenty of stuff, some old, some not quite old. I have no idea what their sources are. I'll certainly not pay a hundred pesos for that set but at, say, a third of that you can count me in. I see there is a review from Gramophone that finds the sound substantially better than in the stereo set, whereas an Amazon reviewer says the stereo set will satisfy more in terms of sonics. Interestingly, both review the DG issue, but the articles display a different cover art... All agree on the excellence of the musical results. In short, a classic for those who like to have a Library Version. I'll keep an eye open for De Deal... ;)

Continuing apace in my exploration of Heikdsieck's set I've listened to sonatas 1-7,12-23,25 and 26. One of my favourites, no. 7 failed to grab my attention. I may have been tired and inattentive. Will have to give it more hearings. Yves Nat is my yardstick in this.

In the seldom heard sonata 12 Heidsieck DID grab my attention, especially in the bizarre Marcia funebre ('on the death of a Hero' - who is that? ???). Time and again when listening to that set I find a rightness to Heidsieck's approach that not only silences criticism, but also quelches any desire to hear another version. That's no mean fest, yours truly being the compulsive Comparator. Of course it helps that I have but a tiny fraction of the LvB sonatas compared to other works such as the symphonies.

Sonata 14: was I in a particularly receptive mood? Never have I heard such pain and nobility in the opening Adagio sostenuto (the booklet has this labeled 'Allegro sostenuto' ::). The range of dynamics is not overly exploited (no cheap over-emoting here) , but the phrasing, accents, pedaling all concur to make this simply unique. In the evergreen Allegretto that follows Heidsieck does not make me forget Rubinstein's uncanny barcarolle-like phrasing. Heidsieck uses a very different approach to the rythms. Where Rubinstein smooths them to bring out a dancing quality, Heidsieck underlines their Petrouchka-like character: at once aggressive and beguiling. The final Presto agitato is taken at a whirlwind pace. I think it almost strains his technical abilities. But goodness gracious! It's mighty exciting.

I think one of this pianist's main attributes is his uncanny faculty to bring out Beethoven's wide dynamic changes (often in the same phrase) while keeping a steady flow, often in tricky rythmic patterns. He makes phrases and paragraphs sound whole instead of parceled, seamless instead of disjointed, while  keeping intact all the quirks of Beethoven's dynamics, rythms and melodic shaping.

The sound is excellent. Rarely have I been as satisfied by a set of something. So far, not a foot put wrong.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 11:36:27 PM
Quote from: André on August 11, 2012, 05:59:15 PM
I've had a selection of the Kempff mono cycle for many years. Each sonata in it (IIRC 8, 14, 17, 21, 23, 24, 26, 29) was more interesting than the stereo remake and quite good sounding. This was on a pair of Quintessence cassettes, so obviously of limited sonic appeal and it still held my attention as very few others have.

You could well be right. I think I took a rather good transfer of the mono cycle on spotify to be the stereo recording!

This is a danger with spotify. You don't have the booklet to confirm exactly what you're listening to. Have to look out for that in future.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 12, 2012, 01:24:15 AM
I've 'bagged' Regis on the Kempff but I also have other Regis CDs where the sound is very good. Maybe I got a bad CD thought I don't think so. The Regis release may have caused a drop in the DG price so I've just ordered the Kempff DG for $38 Australian from MDT. I'll report back about the sound quality. I'm also hoping for better booklet notes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 13, 2012, 08:31:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 12, 2012, 04:14:44 PMIf and where Regis licenses stuff that's out of copyright, they ... how to phrase this...  I wouldn't be surprised if they just copy the latest CDs of the music and make it their own. That's technically not legal, but it's never been challenged in court in the history of semi-pirating. What they would have to do, technically, is go back to a release that is also out of copyright. (LP or even earlier or org. tapes, where extant, if they had access, which they don't likely have.) It's almost common procedure to piggy-bag ride on the restoration / digitalization work of others... even among big-name companies. I know Audite's work has been re-cycled that way plenty of times. (And in a way I do hope that a law suit will be filed, eventually, to stop the practice.)

As I understand it, if they licensed the stuff (as they explicitly claim to do) there would be nothing illegal about using the previous CD reissue as the basis for their release.  Presumably that is what they are paying for.  For out of copyright material they can distribute without a license, and that's when they presumably would have to copy from the original source (i.e., the original LP pressing, not a CD re-release).

For the Kempff, they say on their own web site that their release is "new transfers."  So unless they are lying, they either used LPs or they got DG to digitize the tape for them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on August 13, 2012, 08:48:56 AM
Haven't heard the Regis, but I do have the mono Kempff in the latest DG edition, and think the sound is quite good -- I never felt the need to get the stereo set, even when it was quite cheap, as I'm pretty well satisfied with the mono.  With luck they're using the same transfers, or have only minimally tinkered with them -- they sounded fine to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2012, 08:55:15 AM
Pristine Audio has Schnabel's complete Waldstein finale available on their webpage (http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM043.php) as a free sample. After hearing his Waldstein on Naxos and thinking it miraculous but in poor sound, I'm speechless. Somebody go listen and complain about the restoration before I drop 81 euros on FLACs of the whole series.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 13, 2012, 09:02:59 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 13, 2012, 08:55:15 AM
Pristine Audio has Schnabel's complete Waldstein finale available on their webpage (http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM043.php) as a free sample. After hearing his Waldstein on Naxos and thinking it miraculous but in poor sound, I'm speechless. Somebody go listen and complain about the restoration before I drop 81 euros on FLACs of the whole series.

Sounds like Pristine turned down the treble and turned up the bass. I imagine you could do the same, Brian, and save yourself the dough. I like the Naxos as it is though, more clarity and room ambiance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 13, 2012, 09:05:43 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 13, 2012, 08:55:15 AM
Pristine Audio has Schnabel's complete Waldstein finale available on their webpage (http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM043.php) as a free sample. After hearing his Waldstein on Naxos and thinking it miraculous but in poor sound, I'm speechless. Somebody go listen and complain about the restoration before I drop 81 euros on FLACs of the whole series.

Compare the Pristine and the Naxos from 2:20 to 2:30. The Pristine sounds dull, murky and over-reverberant to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 13, 2012, 09:08:36 AM
24-bit Studio-quality Ambient Stereo FLAC.  Whew, that's a mouthful.  Few things are more annoying than synthesized stereo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on August 13, 2012, 09:18:05 AM
Do you have any opinion on the Musical Concepts remastering of Schnabel?

[asin]B00442OD2G[/asin]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 13, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 13, 2012, 09:18:05 AM
Do you have any opinion on the Musical Concepts remastering of Schnabel?

[asin]B00442OD2G[/asin]

Haven't heard it, nor have I heard of the label. I'd avoid it. The Naxos titles are cheap, offer the best sound and are readily available overseas form MDT, Presto, etc. They are cheap too, you can try one CD.

Or you can sample 7 different transfers (in lossless sound) of the central movement from the Moonlight Sonata here - http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 13, 2012, 09:38:04 AM
Quote from: George on August 13, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
Haven't heard it, nor have I heard of the label. I'd avoid it.

Musical Concepts is the label that recently released Richter's exceedingly rare Spoleto recital. :)

I actually own the original Turnabout/Vox LPs of this recital and the job Musical Concepts did with their CD transfer is absolutely first-rate. Much clearer, fuller, and livelier than the LPs. If this helps anyone...




[asin]B0040T7CO4[/asin]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on August 13, 2012, 09:39:56 AM
Quote from: George on August 13, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
Haven't heard it, nor have I heard of the label. I'd avoid it. The Naxos titles are cheap, offer the best sound and are readily available overseas form MDT, Presto, etc. They are cheap too, you can try one CD.

Or you can sample 7 different transfers (in lossless sound) of the central movement from the Moonlight Sonata here - http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj

Thanks!

Here you can hear some samples of the Musical Concepts release:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-1770-1827-Klaviersonaten-Nr-1-32/hnum/4561073
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 13, 2012, 09:42:34 AM
Quote from: George on August 13, 2012, 09:23:08 AMHaven't heard it, nor have I heard of the label. I'd avoid it.


They're a new-ish reissue shop.  Their Maurice Abravanel Mahler and Wyn Morris LvB are fine.  I don't know if they do new transfers or do straight reissues.  Well, the Mahler sounded identical to the earlier Vanguard reissue, so I think I know on that cycle.  It would be interesting to know which transfers serve as the basis of the Schnabel set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 14, 2012, 02:35:17 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2012, 06:56:42 AM
There's a live [Backhaus Hammerklaviersonate] I think, but I don't know the date.

You are right. Haenssler has released a live recording from Carnegie Hall made in the 1950es. I do not know the precise date because the booklet has disappeared. It is coupled with a recording of the cis-minor sonata and a few encores. The approach is more spontaneous but not too much so (particularly in the cis-minor) than the other recordings I have heard from him, and the sound is surprisingly good (mono).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 14, 2012, 04:02:24 PM
I have the Musical Concepts remastered set of the Schnabel Beethoven sonatas, and find them to be just fine. I have no idea where they sourced the recordings but the remastering sounds very good to me, and the set is dirt cheap. Years ago I built a Heathkit amp and had it modified by a firm called Musical Concepts, and it sounded very fine for what it was, but I have no idea if this is the same Musical Concepts firm involved in the rmastering of the Schanbel sonatas. I did have one quirk with the set---a defective first volume that skipped. I read somewhere that there was a defect and a fix, and emailed them months after I bought the set, and they promptly sent out a new, corrected first disk. I was very impressed with their service.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2012, 05:51:51 PM
Quote from: George on August 13, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
Haven't heard it, nor have I heard of the label. I'd avoid it. The Naxos titles are cheap, offer the best sound and are readily available overseas form MDT, Presto, etc. They are cheap too, you can try one CD.

Or you can sample 7 different transfers (in lossless sound) of the central movement from the Moonlight Sonata here - http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj

I bought all those Schnabels on Naxos Historical except the concertos ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 14, 2012, 07:29:40 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 14, 2012, 04:02:24 PM
I have the Musical Concepts remastered set of the Schnabel Beethoven sonatas, and find them to be just fine. I have no idea where they sourced the recordings but the remastering sounds very good to me, and the set is dirt cheap. Years ago I built a Heathkit amp and had it modified by a firm called Musical Concepts, and it sounded very fine for what it was, but I have no idea if this is the same Musical Concepts firm involved in the rmastering of the Schanbel sonatas. I did have one quirk with the set---a defective first volume that skipped. I read somewhere that there was a defect and a fix, and emailed them months after I bought the set, and they promptly sent out a new, corrected first disk. I was very impressed with their service.

If you don't mind uploading the central movement of the Moonlight Sonata in lossless form, I'd love to add it to my mediafire folder so that folks could compare.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on August 15, 2012, 09:10:51 AM
Sorry, but you are talking to a computer illiterate, who can barely navigate a website...hehehe
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 15, 2012, 09:26:44 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on August 15, 2012, 09:10:51 AM
Sorry, but you are talking to a computer illiterate, who can barely navigate a website...hehehe

No problem. ;D

The other option would be to lend me the CD. If you are willing to do that, PM me, if not, I understand.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on August 15, 2012, 09:57:38 AM
Quote from: George on August 14, 2012, 07:29:40 PM
If you don't mind uploading the central movement of the Moonlight Sonata in lossless form, I'd love to add it to my mediafire folder so that folks could compare.

I know this will sound a bit weird, but I can do it.

Actually, I have this complete set, but I haven't still listened to. That's the reason why I did the previous question.

If you wait until tomorrow I will upload that movement (or more, if you want) to Mediafire.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 15, 2012, 11:20:43 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 15, 2012, 09:57:38 AM
I know this will sound a bit weird, but I can do it.

Actually, I have this complete set, but I haven't still listened to. That's the reason why I did the previous question.

If you wait until tomorrow I will upload that movement (or more, if you want) to Mediafire.

Great! Thanks!

I saw the box in the store today and noticed that they mention Cedar treatment on the back. Not a good sign, IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on August 15, 2012, 12:08:07 PM
Quote from: George on August 15, 2012, 11:20:43 AM
Great! Thanks!

I saw the box in the store today and noticed that they mention Cedar treatment on the back. Not a good sign, IMO.

I will upload it tomorrow.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 15, 2012, 12:13:13 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 15, 2012, 12:08:07 PM
I will upload it tomorrow.  :)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 16, 2012, 07:11:20 PM
Thread Duty 8) pleasure: sonatas 8-11 played by Eric Heidsieck.

Ahah! I've finally found a Beethoven sonata in which Heidsieck doesn't strike me as a beacon of classicism allied to empfingdsamkeit. This time it's sheer romanticism. In the most elevated way. Extraordinary sensibility and the capacity to transmit those musical fluids into pianistic sounds. I confess not to have heard such impetuosity and illumination into this hackneyed work. Just can't can't over the revelation.

One of the most played and well-known Beethoven sonatas, the 8th is so well known that its romantic-revolutionary character is often overlooked. Just listen to the surprising phrasing Heidsieck uses in the first movement. It totally changes the work's character.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2012, 04:41:40 AM
Quote from: André on August 16, 2012, 07:11:20 PM
I confess not to have heard such impetuosity and illumination into this hackneyed work.

I really tend to doubt that Beethoven wrote a hackneyed work.  There may have been hackneyed performances or superficial listeners, but this cannot be blamed on Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 17, 2012, 07:27:00 AM
Quote from: Arnold on August 17, 2012, 04:41:40 AMI really tend to doubt that Beethoven wrote a hackneyed work.


Wellington's Victory?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on August 17, 2012, 09:34:01 AM
 Quote from: Todd on Today at 11:27:00 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=2302.msg652740#msg652740)

Wellington's Victory?
 
The exception that proves the rule, I'd say.  Although something like the Pathetique sonata or the 5th symphony can certainly be over-played to the point that they seem rather hackneyed, and the sense of originality is lost (god, not that thing again...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 17, 2012, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: André on August 16, 2012, 07:11:20 PM
Thread Duty 8) pleasure: sonatas 8-11 played by Eric Heidsieck.

Ahah! I've finally found a Beethoven sonata in which Heidsieck doesn't strike me as a beacon of classicism allied to empfingdsamkeit. This time it's sheer romanticism. In the most elevated way. Extraordinary sensibility and the capacity to transmit those musical fluids into pianistic sounds. I confess not to have heard such impetuosity and illumination into this hackneyed work. Just can't can't over the revelation.

One of the most played and well-known Beethoven sonatas, the 8th is so well known that its romantic-revolutionary character is often overlooked. Just listen to the surprising phrasing Heidsieck uses in the first movement. It totally changes the work's character.

Very inspiring post. I do hope you'll continue to post your impressions.


Anyway it made me listen to 8. The thing  that really struck me was the rubato. I thought it was very effective in the openiing section and in the central movement.  Also the way he sometimes plays  very detached, like in those chords in the opening slow section.

I'll just mention here a Beethoven CD I've been enjoying this week, even though it's not a sonata performance. The bagatelles in here are so lively, so inspired, so free, so mad (sorry I can't explain it, you're going to have to listen to find a better word) that as far as I'm concerned this goes to the  top of the pile of post war op 126s. The recorded sound is amazing too.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Dec01/Kempff_Schumann_Orfeo_CF.gif)

You know, by the way, that Heidsieck has rerecorded some Beethoven sonatas? I wonder if anyone has heard them.

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/0/9/139.jpg) (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/0/9/142.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 17, 2012, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 17, 2012, 10:50:05 AMYou know, by the way, that Heidsieck has rerecorded some Beethoven sonatas? I wonder if anyone has heard them.



Those discs are from concerts, I believe.  I've not heard them, though when I order from Japan next time, I will probably include at least a little Heidsieck.

BTW, he had started in on another studio cycle, but he only got through the first volume before the cycle was aborted.  It's a shame he didn't raid the family fortune to finance the rest.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GSEB1TKSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 17, 2012, 02:49:52 PM
Mandryka, I haven't heard the newer Heidsiecks. Heck, didn't even know they existed! I should be listening to some more this weekend. As well as some Mozart piano concertos he recorded in the late fifties.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 20, 2012, 07:57:14 PM
For those who want to hear samples of 8 different transfers of the Schnabel Beethoven Sonatas (including the newly added Musical Concepts sample), you can download them here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on August 20, 2012, 11:17:14 PM
ive really been getting a kick out of jeno jando's beethoven the last few days.  never been a fan of 'interpretations' that fool around too much, especially the old ones [only backhaus excluded so far].   - i just wanna hear the score, dammit!.  strong, direct, hair-raisingly virtuosic and impeccable pianism that untangles the thicket of notes, and respects ALL the dynamic markings [gasp!].  only gulda and annie fischer surpass jando in that respect.  tho i admit my exposure to most of the newer cycles is still pretty limited so there may be others quite like it...idk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 05:31:22 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KZp0pykvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The way he plays the Pastoral sonata here  makes me think of a late Tchaikovsky symphony, it's so turbulent in the first movement. Quite remarkable.

I'm just starting to explore this set so I was wondering if anyone else has got through the formidable sound challenge it presents, and if they've found any other special performances in there.

By the way it turns out that Beethoven didn't call the pastoral sonata "pastoral", so I guess you can play it turbulent if you you think you can make music like that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 30, 2012, 05:36:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 05:31:22 AM
I'm just starting to explore this set so I was wondering if anyone else has got through the formidable sound challenge it presents, and if they've found any other special performances in there.

How poor is the sound? I have yet to hear that set and Spotify doesn't have any of it.

Wait! Is this it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCJYLP2zH94
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 05:44:15 AM
You  can hear most of what he's doing I would say.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 30, 2012, 05:47:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 05:44:15 AM
You  can hear most of what he's doing I would say.

I agree (if yours is the one I linked to.)

Firefox users who are now running FF15 can listen to youtube links directly from a link. When I click the triangle next to my link, a windows slides in from the left, playing the youtube video. (without going to youtube) Very cool. Or is that a new function of this site?

Looks like it's a Yahoo web player. Anyone see it with their browser?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 05:49:46 AM
It's true that in op 28 there's someone coughing and farting in the audience all the way through the first movement. But I think that adds to the pastoral experience -- country folk are always doing that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 30, 2012, 05:50:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 05:49:46 AM
It's true that in op 28 there's someone coughing and farting in the audience all the way through the first movement. But I think that adds to the pastoral experience -- country folk are always doing that sort of thing.

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 30, 2012, 06:07:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 05:31:22 AMI'm just starting to explore this set so I was wondering if anyone else has got through the formidable sound challenge it presents, and if they've found any other special performances in there.


I've made it through the Ciani cycle a couple times.  I find his cycle to be sub-par musically as well as sonically.  There are some bright spots - Op 54 comes to mind - but on the whole, it's a miss.  I wrote about it on the old forum. 




Quote from: George on August 30, 2012, 05:36:13 AMHow poor is the sound?



The sound is terrible, execrable.  I have heard nothing that is as bad as the Ciani cycle, not even acoustic recordings or Walter Klien's Brahms.  It was recorded by an audience member with a mono tape recorder.  There are some passages where the distortion buries everything else.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 30, 2012, 06:12:45 AM
Thanks, Todd!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 06:57:52 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 30, 2012, 06:07:57 AM

I've made it through the Ciani cycle a couple times.  I find his cycle to be sub-par musically as well as sonically.  There are some bright spots - Op 54 comes to mind - but on the whole, it's a miss.  I wrote about it on the old forum. 



Can you give a link to that -- I'm dying to know if you said anything about this pastoral that caught my attention.

There are worse things sound wise -- Furtwangler's Strauss four last songs for example, or Schnabel and Szigeti in Brahms. And loads of Sofronitsky. And like I say, you can hear what he's doing -- in a way that's what matters, we can use our imagination to compensate for the deficiencies, especially since one example (op 111) is well recorded and so we know pretty well what sort of sound he made.  But it may not be worth it musically -- it's hard for me to say. So far I've only found the one sonata which made me think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 30, 2012, 07:07:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 06:57:52 AMCan you give a link to that -- I'm dying to know if you said anything about this pastoral that caught my attention.


Here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,7210.0.html) 

We could debate what does or does not sound worse, but this is easily the worst sounding complete LvB sonata cycle. As to using one's imagination to compensate for deficiencies, well, let's just say that's not at all how I listen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 08:32:25 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 30, 2012, 07:07:06 AM

Here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,7210.0.html) 

We could debate what does or does not sound worse, but this is easily the worst sounding complete LvB sonata cycle. As to using one's imagination to compensate for deficiencies, well, let's just say that's not at all how I listen.

It is the way I find myself listening. Strange -- I would have never thought I could listen like that, but I do. 

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 30, 2012, 11:34:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 08:32:25 AM
It is the way I find myself listening. Strange -- I would have never thought I could listen like that, but I do. 

Thanks for the link.

I'm in the same boat, including being surprised.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 30, 2012, 12:03:27 PM
Quote from: George on August 30, 2012, 11:34:28 AM
I'm in the same boat, including being surprised.
I found Ciani's cycle on NML and went through a similar cognitive process. Like, I knew the sound was objectively bad, but I could hear past it way more easily than I expected. It was something like, "I know this is not how Ciani sounded, but I can guess how he sounded," not so much tonally (it's a nightmare that way) as about things like structure and force and the way he builds the piece dramatically. It may not report well on the pianist's sound but it reports well on, if this makes any sense, his artistic character.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on August 30, 2012, 12:14:00 PM
Quote from: George on August 30, 2012, 11:34:28 AM
I'm in the same boat, including being surprised.

I also find that 'imagining the performance that would have given rise to the recording I am listening to' is my default mode of listening.  That applies to surround sound SACDs as well as to transfers of 78rpm shellac disks.  Obviously former require less imagination than the latter, but that is a matter of degree.  But obtrusive noises create a greater distraction to me than poor technical quality of audio.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 30, 2012, 12:37:01 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2012, 12:03:27 PMbut I could hear past it way more easily than I expected.


That's the easy part.  Looks like I use the word "imagine" differently than most people here.  Adjusting to crappy sound is not imaginative.  There is still plenty else to listen for: dynamics, tempi, phrasing, etc.  Tone is often not even represented wholly accurately by recordings anyway.  No, when I see the word imagine, I think someone is filling in the gaps where Alfred Cortot dropped notes, or as would be pertinent here, would find Ciani's fast, dynamically wide ranging Allegro from Op 13 is emotionally intense rather than just intense.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 01:31:20 PM
I listened to his Op 109 but couldn't hear that it was a particularly special performance. I also listened to the first movement of the Hamerklavier and thought yes, it's fine.

And then I went to Op 2/2 and like wow . . . this is nice. As with the Pastoral  the style is impressive partly because of the enormous dynamic range and sudden mood changes -- this was there in the primo.  He can play very tender and quiet and he can play extremely loudly, but tonally it never sounded too percussive to me. The second movement was very good I thought -- not extremely philosophical or spiritual. The third movement was lovely and gentle and playful without being trivial  and the outburst in the 4th movement was memorable -- with streaks if lightning in the left hand and steady clear chords in the right.

There are rubato things going on in Op 2/2 which I hadn't noticed so much eleswhere. Not as intrusive as Heidsieck, and interesting.

Anyway these are all just impressions after a single listening so take them with a pinch of salt as always, but I'm happy to have this set -- by the way, it's just a very cheap amazon download.

In terms of sound Todd is probably right. I certainly haven't heard worse sounding Beethoven sonatas. But it's not as painful as, say, Sofronitsky's Moscow Conservatory CDs.  It helps to listen through good hifi == I don't think it's damaging the speakers.

I got it, by the way,  because I was so impressed by this Ciani CD, which I think has the best Noveletten I've ever heard, except maybe for Nat.

(http://www.stradivarius.it/imgcache/8011570100160-164-164.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 30, 2012, 01:35:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 01:31:20 PM
Anyway these are all just impressions after a single listening so take them with a pinch of salt as always, but I'm happy to have this set -- by the way, it's just a very cheap amazon download.

Currently only $17.98 - http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-L-Van-Sonatas-Complete/dp/B002SIHSM0/ref=sr_shvl_album_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1346362471&sr=301-4
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 30, 2012, 02:43:53 PM
If you want to hear Ciani in reasonably good sound try this set.

[asin]B00007E8QO[/asin]

The Weber PS had never really grabbed me until I heard Ciani play them. His rendition of Schumann's Op 17 is nearly as good as Fiorentino's. The only LvB on the disc is a good recording of the Diabelli's. I go back to these recordings often
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 30, 2012, 04:23:29 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 30, 2012, 02:43:53 PMIf you want to hear Ciani in reasonably good sound try this set.


If hearing Ciani in good sound is a goal, the DG Debussy twofer fits the bill.  Not SOTA, and it has its limitations, but it may be a reasonably good approximation of what he sounded like.  Performance wise, well, he's not a top tier Debussy pianist for me.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61IsQSKq3FL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)



Quote from: Holden on August 30, 2012, 02:43:53 PMThe Weber PS had never really grabbed me until I heard Ciani play them.


Consider Michael Endres if you want some nice Weber.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 30, 2012, 05:18:54 PM
Todd, have you yet posted on FFG vol 2? I'm especially impressed by the Appassionata and all the "little" sonatas (notably Opp 49, 78, 79) but I could've used a liittle more extroversion in 31/3. All in all, more very good and very consistent playing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 30, 2012, 05:30:45 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2012, 05:18:54 PMTodd, have you yet posted on FFG vol 2? I'm especially impressed by the Appassionata and all the "little" sonatas (notably Opp 49, 78, 79) but I could've used a liittle more extroversion in 31/3. All in all, more very good and very consistent playing.



Not yet, not enough time, but Op 57 is easily the best thing in the set.  There have been a number of good 57s lately (Takacs' come to mind, but also Stewart), and FFG's is arguably the best of the lot.  Just superb stuff.  Op 31 is very good, but not tip top, but there's more to it than that.  I've got some other LvB that I have not had time to write about (the rest of HJ Lim, Idil Biret, Stewart).  Maybe in the next couple weeks I can write in more detail.  I eagerly await volume 3, let me put it that way. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 30, 2012, 05:55:11 PM
speaking of this thread's favorite performer,  this just came across my email transom.

"Her chart topping debut is finally available as an 8-CD boxset!"
(http://www.emiclassicsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/083012_hj.jpg)

There's also a little clip of her talking about the sonatas, if you care to listen (I didn't). And of course also a link to click if you want to buy (I didn't).
http://m.news.emihosting.com/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=fdd33545e302e26538


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 30, 2012, 06:45:43 PM
Thanks Todd. Stewart = Goodyear, or is there someone surnamed Stewart I'm forgetting?

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 30, 2012, 05:55:11 PM
speaking of this thread's favorite performer,  this just came across my email transom.

"Her chart topping debut is finally available as an 8-CD boxset!"
There's also a little clip of her talking about the sonatas, if you care to listen (I didn't). And of course also a link to click if you want to buy (I didn't).
http://m.news.emihosting.com/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=fdd33545e302e26538

1. She conducts??!?!?!
2. Teaser from my submitted and soon-to-appear MusicWeb review of Lim: "As soon as Lim arrives above forte she starts cavorting about like a hyperactive retriever."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2012, 11:14:02 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 30, 2012, 02:43:53 PM
If you want to hear Ciani in reasonably good sound try this set.

[asin]B00007E8QO[/asin]

The Weber PS had never really grabbed me until I heard Ciani play them. His rendition of Schumann's Op 17 is nearly as good as Fiorentino's. The only LvB on the disc is a good recording of the Diabelli's. I go back to these recordings often

The Op 62/1 (a Chopin nocturne) in that box is amazing, and I remember a good Liszt Etude too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 31, 2012, 07:02:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2012, 06:45:43 PMThanks Todd. Stewart = Goodyear, or is there someone surnamed Stewart I'm forgetting?


Yep, I reversed the names.  My bad.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 31, 2012, 01:11:41 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2012, 05:18:54 PM
Todd, have you yet posted on FFG vol 2? I'm especially impressed by the Appassionata and all the "little" sonatas (notably Opp 49, 78, 79) but I could've used a liittle more extroversion in 31/3. All in all, more very good and very consistent playing.

Yes, Brian, the Appassionata is very good. I have better versions (Richter  - Moscow, Carnegie Hall and Gilels - Moscow '61) though I am happy to listen to this. I am listening to the Pastoral at the moment. It is one of my favourite LvB PS from both a performance and listening perspective. I prefer a more leisurely approach to this work than Guy gives it.

The two sonatas of Op 49 are indeed very good especially #19. Guy finds real character in this work instead of just playing the notes like many others do. This might now be my favourite version of this piece, supplanting Annie Fischer, but I'll need to go back and check.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 31, 2012, 02:03:09 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 31, 2012, 01:11:41 PMI am listening to the Pastoral at the moment. It is one of my favourite LvB PS from both a performance and listening perspective. I prefer a more leisurely approach to this work than Guy gives it.
Agreed; Gilels DG is my soft spot there, but I do love FFG's wit in the scherzo.

Appassionata - is Gilels '61 the Brilliant recording? I remember that being volcanic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 31, 2012, 02:09:47 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2012, 02:03:09 PM
Agreed; Gilels DG is my soft spot there, but I do love FFG's wit in the scherzo.

Very few pianists get the Pastoral sonata right, IMO. Less than any other sonata, in my experience. Out of about 20 pianists, only 4 impress me in this work:

Kovacevich on EMI is the best I have heard, then comes Gulda, Kempff(st) and Schnabel.

QuoteAppassionata - is Gilels '61 the Brilliant recording? I remember that being volcanic.

Indeed it is.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 31, 2012, 03:20:35 PM
Not sonatas, but still among Beethoven's interesting smaller works: the Bagatelles. A couple are very well-known,  but they are recorded less often than the Variations, let alone the Sonatas. The EMI box I currently investigate has them all (as well as the Diabelli and Eroica variations) played by Georges Solchany. I'm no piano expert, and not knowledgeable enough on these works to pass an opinion, and furthermore have never heard of Solchany before, but I thoroughly enjoyed that disc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on August 31, 2012, 03:44:05 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 30, 2012, 05:55:11 PM
speaking of this thread's favorite performer,  this just came across my email transom.

"Her chart topping debut is finally available as an 8-CD boxset!"
(http://www.emiclassicsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/083012_hj.jpg)
Your description of her as this thread's favorite performer (tongue drilling through your cheek, no doubt) finally persuaded me to sample some of the best loved sonatas from her set--Hammerklavier, Moonlight, and Waldstein.  Her skill at playing certain passages very quickly is admirable, no doubt, but it does not make her a musician and the bizarre and erratic rhythmic instability displayed in what I heard suggest that she lacks a musician's soul.

Are there really people who like this sort of thing? And shy do such things still surprise me? Slow learner, I guess. [insert shrug emoticon]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 31, 2012, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 31, 2012, 03:44:05 PM[insert shrug emoticon]
Here ya go! (http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/shrug.gif)

By the way, I encourage you to try FFGuy's "Moonlight" to compare. Tempos in the last two mvts are more or less identical -

Lim-------Guy
4:27       5:45
2:12       2:11
7:15       7:02
=13:54  =14:58

which makes it VERY easy to compare someone with a musical soul, with someone who does not have it. And, of course, proves that tempo isn't everything!


EDIT: Unrelated: looking through listings of new releases, I saw that Leif Ove Andsnes is planning to spend the next 4 years recording Beethoven for Sony. His first-ever Beethoven CD (PCs 1 and 3) comes out next month, but four years of effort suggests more than just the concertos. He apparently started playing Beethoven in recitals last year (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/09/arts/music/leif-ove-andsnes-plays-beethoven-review.html).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 31, 2012, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: George on August 31, 2012, 02:09:47 PM
Very few pianists get the Pastoral sonata right, IMO. Less than any other sonata, in my experience. Out of about 20 pianists, only 4 impress me in this work:

Kovacevich on EMI is the best I have heard, then comes Gulda, Kempff(st) and Schnabel.


What do you want from a performance of it?

There are so many different recordings of this, including from people like Sofronitsky and Sokolov and Bashkirov and Edwin Fischer and Moravec and Mustonen and Levy, who didn't record much Beethoven. It would be an interesting project to understand the different approaches etc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 01, 2012, 04:42:28 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2012, 05:09:44 PM
Here ya go! (http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/shrug.gif)
Thanks, Bri! :D

Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2012, 05:09:44 PM
By the way, I encourage you to try FFGuy's "Moonlight" to compare. Timings in the last two mvts are more or less identical -
which makes it VERY easy to compare someone with a musical soul, with someone who does not have it.
Amen. And Guy really is good enough that I foresee another complete sonata cycle in my future. Though Ms Lim's costs 1/3 as much, excepting cover pictures it offers less than 1/10 the value. (And I can easily imagine that women and gays find Guy's cover photos at least as stimulating as Ms Lim's.) ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on September 01, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
he is kinda dreamy  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on September 01, 2012, 08:45:42 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 30, 2012, 05:55:11 PM
speaking of this thread's favorite performer,  this just came across my email transom.

"Her chart topping debut is finally available as an 8-CD boxset!"
(http://www.emiclassicsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/083012_hj.jpg)

There's also a little clip of her talking about the sonatas, if you care to listen (I didn't). And of course also a link to click if you want to buy (I didn't).
http://m.news.emihosting.com/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=fdd33545e302e26538

Not sure if you have read this article.  I haven't since I generally do not bother with NYT ... (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/arts/music/david-greilsammer-and-h-j-lim-pianists-stepping-out.html?pagewanted=all)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 02, 2012, 08:18:57 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2012, 05:09:44 PMUnrelated: looking through listings of new releases, I saw that Leif Ove Andsnes is planning to spend the next 4 years recording Beethoven for Sony



This is most excellent news.  Andsnes and Endres are the two pianists I'd most like to hear in Beethoven.  (Schuch and Volodos are not far behind.)  Four years sure seems to imply either a sonata cycle, or at least a good chunk of the sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 02, 2012, 08:23:12 AM
I listened to George's favourite Pastorale. .  I can't explain this but what I'm aware of most when I listen is his force. The strength of his body on the piano. I don't like it.

I was impressed very much by Annie Fischer's and by Gould's -- but most of all by Lucchesini, which isn't at all turbulent, it's simple and peaceful, yet to me it's very meaningful -- I can't say why, and certainly doesn't trivialise the music. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 02, 2012, 08:24:05 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on September 01, 2012, 08:45:42 PM
Not sure if you have read this article.  I haven't since I generally do not bother with NYT ... (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/arts/music/david-greilsammer-and-h-j-lim-pianists-stepping-out.html?pagewanted=all)



Certainly one can surmise that Lim knows more about Beethoven than Serkin.  I mean, she recorded more sonatas than that old man.  Sheesh.

My takeaway from the article is to look into David Greilsammer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 02, 2012, 08:49:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 02, 2012, 08:23:12 AM
I listened to George's favourite Pastorale. .  I can't explain this but what I'm aware of most when I listen is his force. The strength of his body on the piano. I don't like it.

It's funny, that was my criticism of his entire EMI set. However, in the Pastorale, he uses it as a contrast with the more gentle passages. I also like his tempo choices.

I should listen again to Moravec, Levy, Sofronitsky and Edwin Fischer (if I have it.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 02, 2012, 09:02:13 AM
Quote from: George on September 02, 2012, 08:49:25 AM
It's funny, that was my criticism of his entire EMI set. However, in the Pastorale, he uses it as a contrast with the more gentle passages. I also like his tempo choices.

I should listen again to Moravec, Levy, Sofronitsky and Edwin Fischer (if I have it.)

Of that bunch I thought Moravec's live one from Brussels and Sofronitsky's were particularly impressive.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 02, 2012, 09:13:26 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 02, 2012, 09:02:13 AM
Of that bunch I thought Moravec's live one from Brussels and Sofronitsky's were particularly impressive.

Ok, will check them out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 02, 2012, 12:14:15 PM
George, two that you might like to hear are Sokolov from the Paris Concert DVD and also Gilels. Barenboim from his EMI set is also very good IMO. Like Mandryka, i prefer a more sedate approach within which you can certainly use contrast to highlight the phrasing.

BTW, where can I hear the Levy?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 02, 2012, 01:58:46 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 02, 2012, 12:14:15 PM
George, two that you might like to hear are Sokolov from the Paris Concert DVD and also Gilels. Barenboim from his EMI set is also very good IMO. Like Mandryka, i prefer a more sedate approach within which you can certainly use contrast to highlight the phrasing.

BTW, where can I hear the Levy?

Don't have the Sokolov or Barenboim, the Gilels I find too slow.

The Levy was released on Marston Records. All of the Levy volumes in that series are excellent. If you want to try before you buy, PM me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 02, 2012, 02:56:59 PM
Quote from: George on September 02, 2012, 01:58:46 PM
Don't have the Sokolov or Barenboim, the Gilels I find too slow.

The Levy was released on Marston Records. All of the Levy volumes in that series are excellent. If you want to try before you buy, PM me.

...whereas I really like the pace of the Gilels.

Sokolov gives a very intense performance and the whole concert is now on Youtube. The two Sonatas Op 14 are also very well played.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7qUMHm3LOI&feature=related

I have Levy I and II but don't have III so if I could have a sample it would be great. Spotify don't have this and neither does NML.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 02, 2012, 03:25:14 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 02, 2012, 02:56:59 PM
...whereas I really like the pace of the Gilels.

I'll try it again, as it's been awhile.

QuoteSokolov gives a very intense performance and the whole concert is now on Youtube. The two Sonatas Op 14 are also very well played.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7qUMHm3LOI&feature=related

I have Levy I and II but don't have III so if I could have a sample it would be great. Spotify don't have this and neither does NML.

Thanks!

Sure, give me a day or two. If I forget, please remind me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 02, 2012, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: George on September 02, 2012, 01:58:46 PM
the Gilels I find too slow.


I can imagine what you're gonna say about Sokolov then.

It's the sort of recording which works well in its own terms but if you listen to it when you've got more conventional interpretations still ringing in your head, it's impossible. I suppose in a concert you get swept along by the event inevitably. There are quite a few records like that -- some of those Richter concertos are like that I would say. Well worth having just to hear what can be done with the music. It's very nuanced, very polished and refined, great piano tone, and you know, he's musical, so there's a story told and there are magic moments and all that kind of  stuff.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on September 03, 2012, 07:01:33 AM
Quote from: George on September 02, 2012, 08:49:25 AM
It's funny, that was my criticism of his entire EMI set. However, in the Pastorale, he uses it as a contrast with the more gentle passages. I also like his tempo choices.

I should listen again to Moravec, Levy, Sofronitsky and Edwin Fischer (if I have it.)

Ao newer is not better ...     :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 03, 2012, 07:55:57 AM
Speaking of newer, just released on August 28 in Europe and due September 12 in the States:
[asin]B007X98RPG[/asin]

This is the 'Marcia funebre,' 'Tempest,' and Opp 54 and 90. Click here for lengthy samples from every track. (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Harmonia%2BMundi/HMC902138#listen) Also, those are some huge shirtsleeves.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 03, 2012, 02:29:17 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KNCDAAPXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E2XW8HGQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Heidsieck vs Heidsieck in the last three.  The EMI recordings I know well, and rate among the best cycles available, certainly in the top 10 were I to try to rank all I've heard.  The Ogam Records Vol I I've been trying to get my hands on for about seven years.  I finally did.  Which is better?  It's pretty much a tie.

The two recordings are stylistically similar, with little changes to tempi here and there, and careful attention to dynamics, with solid rhythmic control and exceptional clarity.  There are some similar unique touches.  For instance, in 110, in both recordings, Heidsieck plays the last repeated chord before the second fugue a bit quieter than the penultimate chord.  He does ride the sustain pedal a little more in the later recording.  Op 111 is, if anything, more aggressive in the opening movement in the newer recording, but only by degrees.  The Arietta is lovely in both, but in the newer one, the boogie-woogie variation is more aloof, more solidly in that late-LvB transcendence mode than the earlier one.  He also emphasizes a brief, three-note figuration in the left hand during the early going of the long chains of trills in both recordings.  Clearly, there's something in that little gesture.

Generally, the earlier recordings seem a bit more secure technically, though Heidsieck was no slouch in 2000, when the Ogam recordings were made.  The later recordings are, for lack of a better description, more introspective and personal.  The sound for the Ogam disc is also very similar to his Victor Mozart sonata recordings, and is bright and clear, but suitably colorful.  The EMI recordings sound similar, just not quite as refined and clean. 

The newer recording simply burnishes Heidsieck's LvB credentials for me.  What a shame he never finished the second cycle. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 04, 2012, 03:17:57 PM
Brutal review of Lim

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Sept12/Beethoven_Lim_4649522.htm

I noticed the other day that the BBC has two Leonskaja beethoven recitals (which include 109- 111) available for streaming in its lunchtime concerts series  Lovely performances.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0185d99/Radio_3_Lunchtime_Concert_LSO_St_Lukes_Beethoven_Piano_Sonata_Series_Elisabeth_Leonskaja/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 04, 2012, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: Fred on September 04, 2012, 03:17:57 PM
Brutal review of Lim

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Sept12/Beethoven_Lim_4649522.htm

Bravo, Brian!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 04, 2012, 03:33:29 PM
Thanks Todd for your insightful comments about Heidsieck's Beethoven. I'm no piano expert, but I know that what I hear from him is unlike anything else without being in any way idiosyncratic. As you mention, little gestures, figurations, rythmic of thematic particularities mark his readings without ever distracting from the overall flow and integrity of structure. They actually enhance them. It's all the more intriguing to be struck by such details in works that have been played thousand times.  Where did he get that from? Obviously it should be from the score, but doesn't everybody who plays or records the sonatas have the same text to bring to life?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 04, 2012, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: Fred on September 04, 2012, 03:17:57 PM
Brutal review of Lim

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Sept12/Beethoven_Lim_4649522.htm
Brian's review is right on...and I love the Adam Sandler line, Brian!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 04, 2012, 04:35:33 PM
Quote from: Fred on September 04, 2012, 03:17:57 PM
Brutal review of Lim

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Sept12/Beethoven_Lim_4649522.htm

(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/takeabow.gif) I did my best.

EDIT: I noticed one of my digs was removed by the editors. The header title was not originally "The Piano Sonatas" - it was "The Incomplete Piano Sonatas."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on September 04, 2012, 04:55:25 PM
I enjoyed the discretion of "like Glenn Gould (or like a lunatic)."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 04, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
Brian, I take issue with two things in your review.

First, as to sound, surely Oland, Levinas, Ehlen (still underway, and on its way to being a world class clunker of a cycle), Biret, Muller, and Mejoueva should be considered at least as poor sounding as Lim or Goodyear among modern cycles. 

Second, you went easy on Lim.   :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on September 04, 2012, 06:46:33 PM
Brian,  you were very unfair to Adam Sandler and Mr. Lucas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 04, 2012, 08:11:35 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 04, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
Brian, I take issue with two things in your review.

First, as to sound, surely Oland, Levinas, Ehlen (still underway, and on its way to being a world class clunker of a cycle), Biret, Muller, and Mejoueva should be considered at least as poor sounding as Lim or Goodyear among modern cycles. 
Now I feel better about sticking in that utter weasel phrase "that I'm aware of": of these the only cycles I even knew about were Oland and Biret. I definitely screwed up on Biret - for some reason I thought they were older recordings like the LvB/Liszt symphonies, but now I see that recordings got underway in 2002.

Quote from: Todd on September 04, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
Second, you went easy on Lim.   :(
I wasn't trying to.  :P

Jeffrey, I do feel guilty about Mr. Lucas, and John Candy, but not really Adam Sandler. I don't think Nick Swardson is well-known enough internationally to have been the butt of that joke, but he was my first choice.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on September 04, 2012, 09:49:52 PM
I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas? 

I have the CD set, and when I first received it I did what I typically do when I encounter a new Beethoven  Sonata cycle, skipped ahead to my favorite movement of my favorite Sonata (the first movement of Op 101).   I found it marvelously done.  It is only a small part of the set, but I will say that it gave me more pleasure then Backhaus did, or Arrau in the same movement.   Then I navigated to the beginning, Op 2, No 1.  (Of course, finding these sonatas was a bit more challenging then usual because of HJ Lim's peculiar grouping of the Sonatas by Theme.)  The performance of the first Sonata was certainly rather provocative, given HJ Lim's tendency to indulge in abrupt tempo shifts and to take liberties with Beethoven's dynamic markings.  But the first movement was uniquely bracing, the second suitably tender, the third what I would have expected.  Only the finale seemed to suffer from Lim's overindulgence, so that at times it seemed that the stuffing threatened to come out.  I am looking forward to making my way through the rest of the set, and expect a similar experience - boldly provocative, more successful in some places than in others.  What's the point of going into the studio to record these works, of which there are hundreds of versions for sale, if you are not going to do something distinctive?

To come back to the review, I don't think it does it's author any credit. 




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 05, 2012, 01:52:57 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 04, 2012, 09:49:52 PM
I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas? 

To come back to the review, I don't think it does it's author any credit.

But he's listened to the whole cycle whereas you have stated that you haven't so I can't see the basis for any criticism of his review. I have listened to the whole cycle and basically agree with Brian. The credit Brian deserves is that he stuck with it and considering Lim's overall performance this would not have been easy.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 05, 2012, 02:15:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 04, 2012, 09:49:52 PM
I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas? 
Quite a few, judging from comments earlier in the thread. I admit I didn't get very far, trying, like you, only a few of my favorites. It didn't take long to get more than my fill of her bizarre tempo shifts, dynamics, and phrasing. She struck me as not merely clueless but deranged and I wondered if she were mentally ill. Her label executives, too, for continuing to record such a travesty and hyping it so vigorously.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on September 05, 2012, 02:21:08 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 04, 2012, 09:49:52 PM

To come back to the review, I don't think it does it's author any credit. 

You want its there, of course..
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 05, 2012, 02:23:38 AM
Buon giorno, Carlo!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2012, 04:38:27 AM
Quote from: Fred on September 04, 2012, 03:17:57 PM
Brutal review of Lim
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Sept12/Beethoven_Lim_4649522.htm

Brian!...have you been taking lessons from the Hurwitzer?  ;D

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 05, 2012, 02:15:03 AM
Quite a few, judging from comments earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure many have listened to her entire cycle. Holden has. I have. Brian has.  Anyone else? [Edit: Todd] How many have actually bought the box? Again, I don't think many have.

In any case, I agree with Scarpia not Brian (not about what Lim's Beethoven is like--Brian's descriptions and metaphors are right on  :D --but that I enjoy her style). Lim's Beethoven has given me much pleasure. But I admit it works better in small doses. I divvied out the CDs about one per week for two months, repeating favorite Sonatas more often (like her Moonlight).

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on September 05, 2012, 04:45:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2012, 04:38:27 AM
Brian!...have you been taking lessons from the Hurwitzer?  ;D

I'm not sure many have listened to her entire cycle. Holden has. I have. Brian has. Anyone else? How many have actually bought the box? Again, I don't think many have.

In any case, I agree with Scarpia not Brian (not about what Lim's Beethoven is like--Brian's descriptions and metaphors are right on  :D --but that I enjoy her style). Lim's Beethoven has given me much pleasure. But I admit it works better in small doses. I divvied out the CDs about one per week for two months, repeating favorite Sonatas more often (like her Moonlight).

Sarge

It's on Spotify FWIW. I listened a little bit and it sounded slightly odd but nothing I couldn't handle. Now I'm really curious, so I might tackle a few sonatas when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on September 05, 2012, 04:48:32 AM
And we all know why Sarge likes it.
(http://jonathancrowe.net/images/2012/hj-lim.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2012, 04:50:52 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on September 05, 2012, 04:48:32 AM
And we all know why Sarge likes it.
(http://jonathancrowe.net/images/2012/hj-lim.jpg)

A pianist who is both cute and deranged. What's not to like  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ataraxia on September 05, 2012, 04:51:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2012, 04:50:52 AM
A pianist who is both cute and deranged. What's not to like  :D

You have a point. :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 05, 2012, 05:50:30 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 04, 2012, 09:49:52 PMI wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas?



I have.  It's crap, plain and simple.  Brian understated how awful the cycle is.  It is a triumph of marketing and gimmickry over artistry.  I will say that Lim is distinctive, but that is not the same as good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 05, 2012, 05:56:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2012, 04:38:27 AM
Brian!...have you been taking lessons from the Hurwitzer?  ;D

Sarge

My thought exactly, as I began reading it. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2012, 06:07:35 AM
Quote from: Holden on September 05, 2012, 01:52:57 AM
But he's listened to the whole cycle whereas you have stated that you haven't so I can't see the basis for any criticism of his review. I have listened to the whole cycle and basically agree with Brian. The credit Brian deserves is that he stuck with it and considering Lim's overall performance this would not have been easy.
Whoa whoa whoa, easy there, I skipped a couple of the sonatas I'm less familiar or don't "get" yet. For instance, the first two movements of Op 101 are still kind of a mystery to me. I consider it only fair to Lim actually: if I like a performance of a sonata I'm having a hard time absorbing, I'll be happy to say so, but if I dislike a performance of such a piece, I'd much rather blame my own ears. (Edited to clarify that I skipped very few of them in this way.)

Also I'm not sure I'd agree with David that she's mentally ill, although narcissism does qualify when it's carried to a certain extreme...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2012, 06:12:27 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 05, 2012, 05:50:30 AM
I have.  It's crap, plain and simple.  Brian understated how awful the cycle is.  It is a triumph of marketing and gimmickry over artistry.  I will say that Lim is distinctive, but that is not the same as good.
One thing I definitely talked about, more than any reviewer published so far, is the fact that her technique really is nowhere near as good as she thinks it is. Listening to spills and crashes like in the finale of Op 26 or indeed an omitted chord in Op 111, I kept wondering why nobody else was talking about the shoddiness of the actual playing and instead praising her in-truth-spotty virtuosity.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 05, 2012, 06:33:41 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2012, 06:12:27 AM
One thing I definitely talked about, more than any reviewer published so far, is the fact that her technique really is nowhere near as good as she thinks it is. Listening to spills and crashes like in the finale of Op 26 or indeed an omitted chord in Op 111, I kept wondering why nobody else was talking about the shoddiness of the actual playing and instead praising her in-truth-spotty virtuosity.
Though she certainly plays some passages at blinding speed, there's much more to virtuosity than that...even if we're speaking only of technical virtuosity and not musicality.

And I didn't say that she's mentally ill, only that I wondered if she were. ;) And not because of narcissism, but because of her "interpretive" choices that have nothing to do with the music and often undermine it, as when disrupting passages that should flow with sudden meaningless pauses then blistering loud unrhythmic banging. Not that narcissism isn't a mental illness, but I don't know enough about her to even tempt me to diagnose that as a significant character attribute, let alone one extreme enough in her case to quality as a personality disorder.

BTW, word is that the DSM V may delete narcissistic personality disorder. Is that because it's become so commonplace these days that it's now considered normal?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 05, 2012, 06:53:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2012, 06:12:27 AMI kept wondering why nobody else was talking about the shoddiness of the actual playing and instead praising her in-truth-spotty virtuosity.



One main reason I can think of: She plays fast.  Fast is good.  Fast is imaginative.  Fast is profound.  Fast is serious.  Fast is exhilarating.  Etc.  She clearly is not capable of doing quite what she wants to do.  There are pianists who can and do play fast with nary a hint of a problem.  Stewart Goodyear, to mention another current cycle, is a perfect example.  Compare the opening to 106 from the two pianists and tell me who commands the piece.  Friedrich Gulda also comes to mind.  But look at the pianists who did not play quite so fast.  Serkin, Pollini, Gilels, Fischer, Kempff, Backhaus, Heidsieck (though he does play fast here and there), Barenboim, Sherman, etc, etc, etc do not play so fast.  All of them, along with literally dozens of others, are much better than Lim. 

Now, if you combine the über-seriousness of speed with Gouldian quirkiness, and the impetuousness of youth, and, well, you see, you've got yourself a serious artist in the making.  One who will plumb new depths.  One who will shed new light.  And so on. 

For me, Lim's cycle is in the same league as Anne Øland's in terms of overall quality, but that masks something else.  Øland strikes me as a more serious artist, just one who cannot pull off her ideas.  Lim strikes me as a youthful poseur, and one who cannot pull off her ideas.  I'd say she reminds me of Lang Lang, but truth be told, I've heard a couple concert broadcasts of Lang Lang where he actually offered more than high speed banging.  There have been other cycles I disliked, but I always wanted to hear the pianist in something else.  Anton Kuerti comes to mind.  Turns out his complete LvB sonata cycle is the only thing of his I don't like.  His Brahms is among the best on record.  His Schubert is superb.  And his more recent LvB recordings are much better.  (To be fair, Op 31/1 from his cycle is among the finest ever; Lim offers nothing even close to the best ever in anything.)  When I saw him in recital, he gave what amounted to a master class on the Diabellis before playing them.  And then he delivered a blockbuster performance.  I have no desire to hear anything else from Lim at this point.  Perhaps she can and will mature into a great artist.  I'll let others buy her discs and wait for a consensus to emerge before spending another penny on her recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leo K. on September 05, 2012, 10:47:33 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 04, 2012, 09:49:52 PM
I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas? 

I have the CD set, and when I first received it I did what I typically do when I encounter a new Beethoven  Sonata cycle, skipped ahead to my favorite movement of my favorite Sonata (the first movement of Op 101).   I found it marvelously done.  It is only a small part of the set, but I will say that it gave me more pleasure then Backhaus did, or Arrau in the same movement.   Then I navigated to the beginning, Op 2, No 1.  (Of course, finding these sonatas was a bit more challenging then usual because of HJ Lim's peculiar grouping of the Sonatas by Theme.)  The performance of the first Sonata was certainly rather provocative, given HJ Lim's tendency to indulge in abrupt tempo shifts and to take liberties with Beethoven's dynamic markings.  But the first movement was uniquely bracing, the second suitably tender, the third what I would have expected.  Only the finale seemed to suffer from Lim's overindulgence, so that at times it seemed that the stuffing threatened to come out.  I am looking forward to making my way through the rest of the set, and expect a similar experience - boldly provocative, more successful in some places than in others.  What's the point of going into the studio to record these works, of which there are hundreds of versions for sale, if you are not going to do something distinctive?

To come back to the review, I don't think it does it's author any credit.

I am listening to this set, and definitely find it my cup of tea. It is very enjoyable to say the least.

The sound quality is very fine and detailed, with just the right amount of air and room space. The performance is bold and full of will.

The negative reviews here made me expect something totally different, but it's not that shocking, it's beautiful and direct.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 05, 2012, 03:59:49 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 05, 2012, 10:47:33 AM
I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas? 

Although if you listen just to op.106 (as I have... or am, right now), which is a train-wreck, you could see how it's tempting to follow suit. No?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 10, 2012, 10:37:54 AM
It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]

[asin]B008DBID4I[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 10:54:41 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 10, 2012, 10:37:54 AM
It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]
Cool. I have the first incarnation and always enjoy listening to it. Buchbinder's more classically restrained and less flamboyantly "interpretive" than some others. Perhaps this second re-issuing of his cycle suggests that there's continuing interest in his approach to the 32...?

Note: it's probably just as wise for Teldec not to picture Rudy on the cover as it is clever of her company to feature HJ Lim's glamour shots! ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2012, 11:11:38 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 10, 2012, 10:37:54 AMIt's coming back.



Excellent.  Added to my cart.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: trung224 on September 11, 2012, 11:05:01 AM
May GMGer give me the opinion about this performance ?

[asin]B00005NW0G[/asin]

Thanks
trung224
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 11, 2012, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: trung224 on September 11, 2012, 11:05:01 AMMay GMGer give me the opinion about this performance ?



Very good overall, with one of the best Op 110s out there to my ears.  Gieseking is swift and effortless, if not the most profound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: trung224 on September 11, 2012, 11:36:22 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 11, 2012, 11:16:59 AM


Very good overall, with one of the best Op 110s out there to my ears.  Gieseking is swift and effortless, if not the most profound.
Many thanks, Todd
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 11, 2012, 09:27:04 PM
I agree with Todd about Gieseking's Op 110. It's fun.

Someone's put a Heidsieck recital from Uraguay in the 1970s on symphonyshare. It's very good. Even if you've given up on his Beethoven you should try this -- it's in a completely different league from the studio records. No intrusive rubato, and he's much much more spontaneous and involved. We need more live Heidsieck I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on September 16, 2012, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 10, 2012, 10:37:54 AM
It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]

[asin]B008DBID4I[/asin]

This is probably the last Beethoven Sonatas set I would like to add to my collection ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 17, 2012, 08:43:45 AM
Quote from: trung224 on September 11, 2012, 11:05:01 AM
May GMGer give me the opinion about this performance ?

[asin]B00005NW0G[/asin]

Thanks
trung224

Your post prompted me to listen to more of his EMI Beethoven, which I managed to find on an excellent japanese transfer here:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xiiQrk2cayM/Tzofy0c3ZFI/AAAAAAAAAwI/mU_tR6U9Dxg/s200/cover.JPG)

Some of this set is very routine I would say. But I thought there was enough in there of exceptional musical interest to make me very glad to have given it the time. We've talked about the Op 109 before here. Apart from that I'd single out Op 10/1 as very nice (I liked all his Op 10s in fact), and Op 31/3. That makes three or may be five excellent, distinctive performances out of 23 -- not a bad score compared with some boxed sets.

The style is full of the joy of life, and  he can certainly be muscular when he feels so inclined. Apart from the smiling joyfulness of it, there's a sort of cuteness to the best of the performances which I think is very distinctive and which I find completely engaging.

If you search the web you'll find very little positive said about his EMI Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 10, 2012, 10:37:54 AM
It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]

[asin]B008DBID4I[/asin]

What date range for the original release(s) of these cd's/lp's?  Buchbinder is new to me, but may be something I could like (if not from the 1920's or '30's). :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 17, 2012, 10:46:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:32:03 AM
What date range for the original release(s) of these cd's/lp's?  Buchbinder is new to me, but may be something I could like (if not from the 1920's or '30's). :)

8)

It's not that old, Gurn. ;D (I wouldn't be as interested in the set, if it was. ;)) I would guess late Seventies or perhaps from the Eighties. I remember someone in this forum mentioning that it was good and also OOP (as so often such things are). I'm surprised that his name is new to you, as he has recorded a Haydn sonata cycle, which is still in print, for the same consortium.  More recently, a set of the 32, recorded live, was released by Sony.

Currently, complete movements from the Op. 13 are being played in the background, as I browse his website: http://buchbinder.net/

Addendum: Jens' interview (http://ionarts.blogspot.in/2010/11/rudolf-buchbinder-rant-why-henle-are.html) with the man himself, just in case you want to know him a little more. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 17, 2012, 10:46:36 AM
It's not that old, Gurn. ;D (I wouldn't be as interested in the set, if it was. ;)) I would guess late Seventies or perhaps from the Eighties. I remember someone in this forum mentioning that it was good and also OOP (as so often such things are). I'm surprised that his name is new to you, as he has recorded a Haydn sonata cycle, which is still in print, for the same consortium.  More recently, a set of the 32, recorded live, was released by Sony.

Currently, complete movements from the Op. 13 are being played in the background, as I browse his website: http://buchbinder.net/

Thanks, Navneeth. No, his name isn't new to me, I just don't have anything by him. I've seen that Haydn set but it's not up my alley. The Beethoven might be, however. 70's or 80's are good; even something as early as the Kempff stereo cycle is good. My sense of history doesn't extend to recordings, however. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 17, 2012, 10:55:45 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:52:36 AM
My sense of history doesn't extend to recordings, however. :)

8)

:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 17, 2012, 10:59:18 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:32:03 AMWhat date range for the original release(s) of these cd's/lp's?



79-81 looks like.  In any event, September 25th is not too far off, which is good, since I've not bought a new cycle in a few months. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 17, 2012, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:32:03 AM
What date range for the original release(s) of these cd's/lp's?  Buchbinder is new to me, but may be something I could like (if not from the 1920's or '30's). :)

8)
It's a rerelease of the original set recorded in the early '80s. A solid, virtuoso, classical (i.e. non-romantically interventionist) set, my first complete cycle on CD. Also of some interest might be his more recent cycle from live performances:
[asin]B004Q8FTDK[/asin]
I haven't heard this one but will try to find some streaming files.

You might also find his Mozart concerto cycle of interest.

FYI a quick turn about google turned up this PR release re. the live set on Sony: http://www.christinajensenpr.com/rudolfs-press-releases/2012/1/31/rudolf-buchbinder-releases-live-recordings-of-all-beethoven.html (http://www.christinajensenpr.com/rudolfs-press-releases/2012/1/31/rudolf-buchbinder-releases-live-recordings-of-all-beethoven.html)
this blogpost including links to videos of live performances of all 5 LVB concertos http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/piano-news/rudolf-buchbinder-embraces-beethoven-and-the-art-of-live-performances-4662/ (http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/piano-news/rudolf-buchbinder-embraces-beethoven-and-the-art-of-live-performances-4662/)
and discovery that Mog has the Sony set available for streaming. So far I've heard (at about 75% attention) the first movement of the Waldstein and liked what I heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 11:25:32 AM
Thanks, guys. I know more already, which is never a bad thing. Like the commentary too, David. "Non-Romantically interventionist" is a real selling point for yours truly. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 17, 2012, 11:33:47 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 11:25:32 AM
"Non-Romantically interventionist" is a real selling point for yours truly.
I hope that's clear, Gurn. I meant "classically restrained, not romanticizing it and not injecting personality into it." Lang Lang he's not!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 11:37:35 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 17, 2012, 11:33:47 AM
I hope that's clear, Gurn. I meant "classically restrained, not romanticizing it and not injecting personality into it." Lang Lang he's not!

Clear as an azure sky of deepest summer, my Californian amigo.    0:)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 17, 2012, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 11:37:35 AM
Clear as an azure sky of deepest summer, my Californian amigo.    0:)

8)
Hey, bro, I forget your 20. I'll be in and around the hill country for a week next month. PM me if it might be convenient to meet and swap a few lies!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 12:09:24 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 17, 2012, 11:55:36 AM
Hey, bro, I forget your 20. I'll be in and around the hill country for a week next month. PM me if it might be convenient to meet and swap a few lies!

Sorry, David, San Francisco then, Texas now. Pity really, as a glass of wine (or 2) and a cigar would be a pleasant afternoon.  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 17, 2012, 10:38:47 PM
There was a time when Buchbinder's seventies Beethoven CDs cost a bomb to buy (I should know).  Now they're almost giving them away.  Overall, it's an excellent set, particularly 29 to 32.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 18, 2012, 07:29:40 PM
Anybody have thoughts on Steven Osborne's two CDs (sonatas, bagatelles)?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 18, 2012, 09:31:14 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:32:03 AM
What date range for the original release(s) of these cd's/lp's?  Buchbinder is new to me, but may be something I could like (if not from the 1920's or '30's). :)

8)

1976-1982, ADD.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 05:07:41 AM
How strange....  According to the booklet published with the set I have, all of the recordings are copyrighted in '80-'82, except for op 14:1 in 1987.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 19, 2012, 05:23:52 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 05:07:41 AM
How strange....  According to the booklet published with the set I have, all of the recordings are copyrighted in '80-'82, except for op 14:1 in 1987.

Is that a sonatas-only set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 06:42:40 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 19, 2012, 05:23:52 AM
Is that a sonatas-only set?
Yes, sir.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 19, 2012, 06:51:32 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 06:42:40 AM
Yes, sir.

So it's probable that at least some of the variations or sundry works were recorded earlier. And from what I can guess from the old cover of the Op. 120, he also recorded most, if not all, of the 'other' variations based on the waltz.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2012, 06:55:55 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 06:42:40 AM
Yes, sir.

This box has all the variations and bagatelles too, so probably they were recorded earlier.

I am currently making my  <>30th traversal of The 32 with Badura-Skoda. I know it's not everyone's favorite, but it sure is mine!  0:)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ArtSkodaCover1.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 07:06:14 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2012, 06:55:55 AM
I am currently making my ~30th traversal of The 32 with Badura-Skoda. I know it's not everyone's favorite, but it sure is mine!  0:)
I'd like it to be my favorite, too ... but it's long OOP and prohibitively expensive (if available) on the second-hand market.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2012, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 07:06:14 AM
I'd like it to be my favorite, too ... but it's long OOP and prohibitively expensive (if available) on the second-hand market.

I know. It took me nearly 10 years to put it together. First rate recording companies like Astrée, which have so many superb recordings in their catalog, tend to have abysmal distribution systems and tiny press runs (so to speak). As a specialist in collecting recordings like these, I manage to get my heart broken nearly every day.... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 19, 2012, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 05:07:41 AM
How strange....  According to the booklet published with the set I have, all of the recordings are copyrighted in '80-'82, except for op 14:1 in 1987.

Maybe your set only contains the piano sonatas and not the remaining works for solo piano? This info appears at JPC: http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-1770-1827-S%E4mtliche-Klavierwerke/hnum/2871798, so I haven't personally checked it out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2012, 06:55:55 AM

I am currently making my  <>30th traversal of The 32 with Badura-Skoda. I know it's not everyone's favorite, but it sure is mine!  0:)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ArtSkodaCover1.jpg)

8)

I agree that there are some valuable things in the BS Astree set. Actually your post prompted me to listen to Op 10/3 which I liked and which, at least emotionally, reminded me a bit of Pollini -- you know, both very serious and muscular, not very "spiritual" or "tragic" and at times, a bit angry sounding. That made it a specially interesting record for me.

Has anyone heard the early BS records of Beethoven sonatas, the ones he recorded for Westminster? I don't think they're the same as the Astree ones. If I'm right about that, were  the Westmonsters on pianoforte too? Did his ideas about the music change much between the earlier and later records? Is there a digital transfer -- CD or download?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on September 21, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 08:25:06 AM
Has anyone heard the early BS records of Beethoven sonatas, the ones he recorded for Westminster? I don't think they're the same as the Astree ones. If I'm right about that, were  the Westmonsters on pianoforte too? Did his ideas about the music change much between the earlier and later records? Is there a digital transfer -- CD or download?

;D

Was that a typo or a hint of your opinion of those performances?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 11:04:42 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 08:25:06 AM
I agree that there are some valuable things in the BS Astree set. Actually your post prompted me to listen to Op 10/3 which I liked and which, at least emotionally, reminded me a bit of Pollini -- you know, both very serious and muscular, not very "spiritual" or "tragic" and at times, a bit angry sounding. That made it a specially interesting record for me.

Has anyone heard the early BS records of Beethoven sonatas, the ones he recorded for Westminster? I don't think they're the same as the Astree ones. If I'm right about that, were  the Westmonsters on pianoforte too? Did his ideas about the music change much between the earlier and later records? Is there a digital transfer -- CD or download?

I haven't heard any other of his Beethoven. Todd reviewed another set, and it is newer rather than older, performed on an Bösendorfer Imperial.

I don't know much about inferring moods or emotions from recordings. B-S reputedly plays in a classic Viennese style, and the tempi he keeps throughout are simply perfect to my ears, not to mention that I greatly prefer the sound of a fortepiano-pianoforte in Classical Era music. IMO, he is unmatched in Classical Viennese repertoire, even by other players who I like a lot.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 11:27:24 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 21, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
;D

Was that a typo or a hint of your opinion of those performances?

Lapsus révélateur.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 11:36:14 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 11:04:42 AM
I haven't heard any other of his Beethoven. Todd reviewed another set, and it is newer rather than older, performed on an Bösendorfer Imperial.

I don't know much about inferring moods or emotions from recordings. B-S reputedly plays in a classic Viennese style, and the tempi he keeps throughout are simply perfect to my ears, not to mention that I greatly prefer the sound of a fortepiano-pianoforte in Classical Era music. IMO, he is unmatched in Classical Viennese repertoire, even by other players who I like a lot.  :)

8)

Is that because you don't find that music speaks emotionally to you, or because you find that aspect of a performance secondary or what?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 11:36:14 AM
Is that because you don't find that music speaks emotionally to you, or because you find that aspect of a performance secondary or what?

Don't really know, actually. It may not be the performance, it may be the music itself. I've never bought into the 'tragically sad' or 'ebulliently joyous' that I read about. Usually I never even think about that until someone mentions it, and then, of course, it's too late; all I think about at that point is that it was good/bad/ugly music. Mozart's g minor string quintet is a case in point. Some of the descriptions that I've read about it are so not what I thought that I'm apparently in a different universe. So, to choose one of your possibilities then, I would say "secondary"...   :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 12:32:43 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 11:04:42 AM
I haven't heard any other of his Beethoven. Todd reviewed another set, and it is newer rather than older, performed on an Bösendorfer Imperial.

The newer is the Naïve set, recorded in the 90s; the Gramola set was recorded in 1969 or 1970.

I totally agree with the rest of your post.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 12:35:54 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 12:32:43 PM
The newer is the Naïve set, recorded in the 90s; the Gramola set was recorded in 1969 or 1970.

I totally agree with the rest of your post.  :)

Ah, I didn't realize that. Is the Gramola a reprint of the Westminster, as Mandryka was asking?  I saw that set when it came out and thought it was newer than the Astrée/Auvidis.  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 12:43:32 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 12:35:54 PM
Ah, I didn't realize that. Is the Gramola a reprint of the Westminster, as Mandryka was asking?  I saw that set when it came out and thought it was newer than the Astrée/Auvidis.  :-\

8)

I don't know, Gurn. I just recall (I hope) the dates because some time ago, I was very interested in the Gramola set.

Anyway, I agree with your appreciation on the Astrée cycle: those fortepianos are a sort of lysergic journey of colors and voices (well, at least so I guess regarding the "lysergic" part  ;D).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 12:52:24 PM
I'll just mentiion  that all this talk of fortepianos got me zapping around spotify and I found what is, I think, a really nice and very distinctive performance of op 111 by Tom Beghin.

It's part of a Claves box of sonatas by different pianists. I noticed a good op109 in the box by Bilson too. This is something worth exploring I think, for spotify people.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 12:54:00 PM
Review of the Gramola set on ClassicsToday:

QuotePaul Badura-Skoda and the Beethoven sonatas have had a long discographical relationship since the 1950s. The pianist first recorded five "name" sonatas for Westminster (the "Moonlight", Pathetique", Appassionata", "Pastoral", and "Tempest"). He later undertook all 32 sonatas for an LP release brought out in the U.S. by the Musical Heritage Society to tie in with Beethoven's 1970 bicentenary. More recently, he remade the cycle for Astrée, using period instruments. According to Badura-Skoda's American management, the present 1969/70 recordings remained unedited and unreleased until now. In the main, they were worth the wait.

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8948/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 12:55:17 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 12:43:32 PM
I don't know, Gurn. I just recall (I hope) the dates because some time ago, I was very interested in the Gramola set.

Anyway, I agree with your appreciation on the Astrée cycle: those fortepianos are a sort of lysergic journey of colors and voices (well, at least so I guess regarding the "lysergic" part  ;D).

Nothing wrong with lysergic, a perfectly acceptable word.  $:)  One of my favorite memories of the '60's, in fact. :D :D

I agree, the variety of tonal shadings, not only from the different instruments but from different touches on the same instrument, make the pianoforte/fortepiano sound totally unique. I'm tripping on it even right now!  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 12:57:57 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 12:54:00 PM
Review of the Gramola set on ClassicsToday:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8948/

Aha! So it IS the same set. And from his prime too. Well, nicely restored pianofortes were thin on the ground in 1969. At least it was an Imperial. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2012, 12:52:24 PM
I'll just mentiion  that all this talk of fortepianos got me zapping around spotify and I found what is, I think, a really nice and very distinctive performance of op 111 by Tom Beghin.

It's part of a Claves box of sonatas by different pianists. I noticed a good op109 in the box by Bilson too. This is something worth exploring I think, for spotify people.

Always wanted to hear that box. Never in the right place at the right time. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 12:55:17 PM
Nothing wrong with lysergic, a perfectly acceptable word.  $:)  One of my favorite memories of the '60's, in fact. :D :D

Off-topic: Something really bad happened to the world in the 70s. Last Wednesday (holiday here in Chile), I watched three movies in one go (a thing that I hadn't done in decades) and all of them were movies from the 60s: My Geisha, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes & Girls, Girls, Girls, and, well, all seemed so natural and untroubled, and all those girls so fantastically dressed and incredibly hot... I was a teenager in the second half of the 80s, but still so I'm nostalgic of the 60s.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on September 21, 2012, 01:19:38 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 01:17:12 PM
Off-topic: Something really bad happened to the world in the 70s.  ... I was a teenager in the second half of the 80s
;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 21, 2012, 01:19:38 PM
;)

Well, I was born in 1970, the last year of the decade of the sixties.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 01:26:12 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 01:17:12 PM
Off-topic: Something really bad happened to the world in the 70s. Last Wednesday (holiday here in Chile), I watched three movies in one go (a thing that I hadn't done in decades) and all of them were movies from the 60s: My Geisha, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes & Girls, Girls, Girls, and, well, all seemed so natural and untroubled, and all those girls so fantastically dressed and incredibly hot... I was a teenager in the second half of the 80s, but still so I'm nostalgic of the 60s.  :)

I graduated from High School in 1969, so that is my generation so to speak. People today simply don't realize how different things are/were. Not just youngsters who didn't live through it, but oldsters who haven't looked out their windows in a long time. I meet both kinds regularly. It was sort of nice being naive and isolated a little bit from the raw edge of reality.   So it goes. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 01:36:23 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 12:55:17 PM
Nothing wrong with lysergic, a perfectly acceptable word.  $:)  One of my favorite memories of the '60's, in fact. :D :D

I agree, the variety of tonal shadings, not only from the different instruments but from different touches on the same instrument, make the pianoforte/fortepiano sound totally unique. I'm tripping on it even right now!  0:)
You merry prankster, you!
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 01:17:12 PM
Off-topic: Something really bad happened to the world in the 70s.
From the perspective of one well into his second half-century, it got worse in the '80s, worse again in the '90s and '00s, and the '10s aren't looking likely to reverse the trend. But who gives a rat's netherquarters about the human spiritual condition nowadays--we've got iPhones!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 01:42:07 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 01:26:12 PM
I graduated from High School in 1969, so that is my generation so to speak. People today simply don't realize how different things are/were. Not just youngsters who didn't live through it, but oldsters who haven't looked out their windows in a long time. I meet both kinds regularly. It was sort of nice being naive and isolated a little bit from the raw edge of reality.   So it goes. :-\

8)

A true lost paradise that we can now comment, you in the USA and me thousands of miles in the South, while I'm listening, at the same time, to Susan Alexander-Max playing some CPE Bach on a Hofmann Grand Piano, via NML. So it goes... actually.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 02:02:11 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 01:42:07 PM
"Entonces Bioy Casares recordó que uno de los heresiarcas de Uqbar había declarado que los espejos y la cópula son abominables, porque multiplican el número de los hombres."
-- Borges, Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
And our growing human population not only causes some of the ills more noteworthy in recent decades, but exacerbates all of them while simultaneously impeding correction. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 02:27:10 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 02:02:11 PM
And our growing human population not only causes some of the ills more noteworthy in recent decades, but exacerbates all of them while simultaneously impeding correction.

"Then Bioy Casares recalled that one of the heresiarchs of Uqbar had stated that mirrors and copulation are abominable, because both of them increase the number of human beings."

I like this quotation because of the arbitrary assimilation between "copulation" and "mirrors", generously attributed by Borges to his great friend Adolfo Bioy Casares (a married man and a well-known lover of beautiful girls).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on September 21, 2012, 04:36:38 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2012, 10:32:03 AM
What date range for the original release(s) of these cd's/lp's?  Buchbinder is new to me, but may be something I could like (if not from the 1920's or '30's). :)

8)

I was introduced to Buchbinder by the following CD set and the CD single.  I have owned the latter for probably 20 years and always wondered if Buchbinder has ever recorded the entire Beethoven Sonatas works and here it is ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51964GwyLIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D2kGYWkeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AndyD. on September 21, 2012, 04:56:12 PM
To be honest, I mostly only listen to the late piano sonatas, and my set of Pollini's interpretations more than fulfills me. I do have the Brendel complete Decca set though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 22, 2012, 09:27:41 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2012, 07:29:40 PM
Anybody have thoughts on Steven Osborne's two CDs (sonatas, bagatelles)?

I'm sorry for not responding sooner, I had meant to but I forgot.

He's one of the pianists I follow -- you know, if he plays in London I normally go to the concert, I buy the CDs. I think he's the best British pianist of his generation around.

The sonatas CD is something which for me is most valuable for the Op 79, which happens to be a favourite sonata. It's slighly heavier and more serious than many performances of it, wonderful colours in the slow movement, where he plays the music bery tenderly. The final movement is playful and slighly boisterous. I like it very much.

I also like the Waldstein there. That shows that he can be quite muscular and vigorous and full of fire aswell as colouful and rapt.  The end of the Waldstein is so exciting it's dangerous. The other two sonatas I hardly ever play, just because the music has been off my radar for a while.

Osborne is a pianist with a face, there's nothing bland about these interpretations, and nothing eccentric neither. The tone he makes is burnished, he has an enormous dynamic range and he is an expert at shading, colouring, balancing chords, layering voices. This boy can drive a concert grand. The quality of the recording technically is excellent.

When you listen to him, you forget other performances.

I bought the bagatelles CD but I've only had the chance to play it once. I enjoyed what I heard. I have heard him play OP 126 in concert very impressively. He's good in short pieces -- Beethoven, Vingt Regards,  Mikrokosmos.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 22, 2012, 09:42:36 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 01:17:12 PM
Off-topic: Something really bad happened to the world in the 70s. L... I was a teenager in the second half of the 80s, but still so I'm nostalgic of the 60s.  :)

Obviously you're not black or gay or female.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2012, 08:44:31 AM
I listened again  to Osborne's bagatelles. My take on this is now as follows: it's well recorded and consistently well played. Slightly less vigorous and slightly more serious, less playful, than Kovacevich. That may be because  he chooses slower speeds. Osborne tends to be charming, and he has a wonderful touch and nice tone. If you want a single CD with all the music then this will do the job.

He never quite seemed to get to the heights, the imaginative heights, that you hear from time to time from  Pletnev or Sanchez or Richter or Komen or Schnabel or maybe  Kempff and Gould.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 24, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
My favourite interpretation of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas is Richard Goode's box from Nonesuch Records (1993). The power of Goode's playing,  the beauty, the subtlety of control, the amazingly wide tonality, the great dynamic range, the freshness, the precission, the sureness, the imagination and the empathy are overwhelming. Don't feel free to pick the winner until you listen to Goode. He is simply too good... :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bZM3UVPiL._SS400_.jpg)


P.S. Alfred Brendel should be tried too (Decca 2011).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on September 24, 2012, 01:38:17 AM
the goode cycle has been sitting in my ipod for a year and i still havent heard it.  [i've sampled op.31 and 57 and was extremely impressed tho]

better get on that
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 06:59:52 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 24, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
My favourite interpretation of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas is Richard Goode's box from Nonesuch Records (1993). The power of Goode's playing,  the beauty, the subtlety of control, the amazingly wide tonality, the great dynamic range, the freshness, the precission, the sureness, the imagination and the empathy are overwhelming. Don't feel free to pick the winner until you listen to Goode. He is simply too good... :)
Yay!

He's not too popular on this forum, however. Beats me why. Too much critical AND popular approval? (We do so want our tastes to be distinguished by exclusivity indicating that we are among the very select few with the critical faculties and judgment to appreciate the understated brilliance of Jerry Lee Lewis's Hammerklavier, available only as a bootlegged private recording if you know Guido personally and have the password.) ;)

Even Kovacevich (another of my faves) gets an occasional grudging nod of approval from our resident tastemakers, but Goode?  Never!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 24, 2012, 07:09:41 AM
That is an obvisous exaggeration, David. I know for a fact that every member of this board agrees that he is Goode.

:P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 07:10:59 AM
 :-[
Quote from: Opus106 on September 24, 2012, 07:09:41 AM
That is an obvisous exaggeration, David. I know for a fact that every member of this board agrees that he is Goode.
;D

mea culpa (I'm so ashamed  :-[ )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 07:25:45 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 07:10:59 AM
:-[;D

mea culpa (I'm so ashamed  :-[ )

It's OK, David. I am equally enthusiastic about John O'Conor, and you see the shortness of the shrift that HE gets!  Which is surprising in its way, since none other than Todd the Tastesetter is the only other endorser that I can recall. His was my favorite cycle before Badura-Skoda, and still is on a modern piano. I have no opinion of Goode though, not knowing his work as I don't.  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
What I can't understand is why some folk seem to need others to enjoy their favorites. Why isn't enough that you love them?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 07:54:51 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 24, 2012, 07:37:11 AM
My current favorites that are in process of completion are Jonathan Biss and FF Guy, and of these two, I lean towards Biss because of his approach which is less flamboyant (imo).
I, too, like what I've heard from them very much.
Are you in San Antonio or nearby? We'll be in the vicinity next month, too soon to give that stretch of 130 a try at a legal 85.  Hmmm, if it's posted 85, does that mean actual speeds will average around 100? Certainly today's cars are nearly all quite capable of travelling safely at such speeds...but all too many of today's drivers are unsafe at any speed!

Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
What I can't understand is why some folk seem to need others to enjoy their favorites. Why isn't enough that you love them?
I doubt there's anyone here more suited to answer that question than yourself, George.

If you re-examine johndoe's post you'll see that he wasn't trying to force anyone to agree with him, but simply expressing his appreciation for Goode's cycle and suggesting that others who love these sonatas should give Goode a try. (http://www.avatarsplus.com/d/13594-1/1076-shrug.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 24, 2012, 08:07:12 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 07:54:51 AM
Are you in San Antonio or nearby? We'll be in the vicinity next month, too soon to give that stretch of 130 a try at a legal 85.  Hmmm, if it's posted 85, does that mean actual speeds will average around 100? Certainly today's cars are nearly all quite capable of travelling safely at such speeds...but all too many of today's drivers are unsafe at any speed!
I doubt there's anyone here more suited to answer that question than yourself, George.

I've driven the current stretch - a bypass around Austin that's capped at 80 - four or five times now. It's a great way to get around Austin's traffic (the worst in Texas at rush hour), and yes, I set my cruise at 84 and have many cars pass me, even two cops.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 08:20:06 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 24, 2012, 08:07:12 AM
I've driven the current stretch - a bypass around Austin that's capped at 80 - four or five times now. It's a great way to get around Austin's traffic (the worst in Texas at rush hour), and yes, I set my cruise at 84 and have many cars pass me, even two cops.
I'll keep that in mind...thanks! Where have you landed these days, Brian?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
What I can't understand is why some folk seem to need others to enjoy their favorites. Why isn't enough that you love them?

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 07:54:51 AM
I doubt there's anyone here more suited to answer that question than yourself, George.

Answer - Codependency.

Exhibit A:

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 07:54:51 AMIf you re-examine johndoe's post you'll see that he wasn't trying to force anyone to agree with him, but simply expressing his appreciation for Goode's cycle and suggesting that others who love these sonatas should give Goode a try. (http://www.avatarsplus.com/d/13594-1/1076-shrug.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 08:25:21 AM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 08:20:24 AM
Answer - Codependency.

Exhibit A:
Ohh...you got me, George.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIrficGdmZGPyhLJS9or_ZAX6k5NUIhn7aKlNzILNRwLcwypOi)

(Is there anyone else on earth as capable of nursing a petty grudge as you?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 08:26:27 AM
Sometimes one interpretation just moves us, and the others don't, as least not as much. I've never been moved by LvB's op. 59, 1 or op. 132 as much as by the Borodin String Quartet's interpretation. And Pollini's late piano set just knocks me out every time. I get profoundly moved whenever I hear his interpretation of the Hammerklavier adagio in particular.

But that's just me. Doesn't matter what you like best, you like it! It is always a great idea to keep an open mind though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on September 24, 2012, 08:31:50 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 08:26:27 AM
. And Pollini's late piano set just knocks me out every time. I get profoundly moved whenever I hear his interpretation of the Hammerklavier adagio in particular.

But that's just me.
No it isn't.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 24, 2012, 08:33:16 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 08:20:06 AM
I'll keep that in mind...thanks! Where have you landed these days, Brian?
I'm just north of SA in the Hill Country, but I'm trying my darndest to escape the parental nest. Wasn't on GMG since Thursday because I was traveling for two interviews...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 08:37:50 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 08:26:27 AM
Doesn't matter what you like best, you like it!

This is what I was trying to say. If I love something, I really don't care if anyone loves it (and if they don't love it, I don't find it puzzling because different people like different things.) My opinion of that thing I love isn't strengthened by someone else liking it, any more than it is weakened by someone else not liking it. This is one of the things that makes music special, ones specific (and individual) taste.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 08:39:45 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 08:26:27 AM
It is always a great idea to keep an open mind though.

Yes, I would hope that an open mind would precede the opinion one has for something.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 08:42:38 AM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 08:37:50 AM
This is what I was trying to say. If I love something, I really don't care if anyone loves it (and if they don't love it, I don't find it puzzling because different people like different things.) My opinion of that thing I love isn't strengthened by someone else liking it, any more than it is weakened by someone else not liking it. This is one of the things that makes music special, ones specific (and individual) taste.

It isn't people who praise what they like that bother me. I do it myself sometimes. It's people who denigrate what they (think) they don't like who tend to irritate me. They even make me lose my grip from time to time.... 0:)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 08:50:03 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 08:42:38 AM
It isn't people who praise what they like that bother me. I do it myself sometimes. It's people who denigrate what they (think) they don't like who tend to irritate me. They even make me lose my grip from time to time.... 0:)

8)


Sometimes music is just SO personal...but I wonder if that's one of the thing we love most about it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 08:59:22 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 08:50:03 AM

Sometimes music is just SO personal...but I wonder if that's one of the thing we love most about it.

The thing is, and I recall speaking to Bruce about this one day, it can become so personal that one's identity becomes tied to their opinion. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 09:09:35 AM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
What I can't understand is why some folk seem to need others to enjoy their favorites. Why isn't enough that you love them?

Because listening isn't really about enjoyment. It's active. It involves focussing on some things rather than others, and it involves  appraising what you hear.

Both of these things require a community, a shared form of life. You have to understand what to focus on, and how to apply the value concepts in new cases.

These are Wittgenstinean ideas.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 09:15:15 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 24, 2012, 08:33:16 AM
I'm just north of SA in the Hill Country, but I'm trying my darndest to escape the parental nest. Wasn't on GMG since Thursday because I was traveling for two interviews...
Ha! I have family west of New Braunfels. We'll be in the area late Oct early Nov. PM me if you've any interest in meeting. And good luck with the interviews!

Quote from: North Star on September 24, 2012, 08:31:50 AM
No it isn't.
;D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 08:42:38 AM
It isn't people who praise what they like that bother me. I do it myself sometimes. It's people who denigrate what they (think) they don't like who tend to irritate me. They even make me lose my grip from time to time.... 0:)
Especially when they denigrate Haydn ... or Beethoven's 9th! ;)

Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 08:59:22 AM
The thing is, and I recall speaking to Bruce about this one day, it can become so personal that one's identity becomes tied to their opinion. 
Yep. Like the kids wearing their Nine Inch Nails t-shirts ... or Oakland Raiders fans under any circumstances! ;)

Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 09:09:35 AM
These are Wittgenstinean ideas.
"A poem should not mean
But be."
~Archibald MacLeish

Edit: Ack! Corrected typo in MacLeish!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 09:28:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 09:09:35 AM
Because listening isn't really about enjoyment. It's active. It involves focussing on some things rather than others, and it involves  appraising what you hear.

Both of these things require a community, a shared form of life. You have to understand what to focus on, and how to apply the value concepts in new cases.

These are Wittgenstinean ideas.

But none of what you say requires others to enjoy (or perceive) what you do.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: trung224 on September 24, 2012, 09:29:54 AM
  George, I want to ask. Who Gilels you prefer when he plays Beethoven, the young or the old ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 24, 2012, 10:01:42 AM
Regarding the things that have been said 'upstairs'... If you like Beethoven and you like his sonatas, you should try to find your favorite cycle. It's like a duty, from my point of view. Nobody heard all the interpreters, nobody even knows all of them. Sometimes an article, a friend, an accidental audition opens your eyes. In order to have a favourite Beethoven sonata player, you have to listen to some of them. I don't want to assert my favorite cycle to anyone. I just wanted to give a hint to someone interested. He or she may find a lot of enjoyment in... Goode, let's say. Goode is there and might put a smile on your face. That's all. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 10:09:11 AM
Quote from: trung224 on September 24, 2012, 09:29:54 AM
  George, I want to ask. Who Gilels you prefer when he plays Beethoven, the young or the old ?

I've yet to do a comparison of the two across the board, but the youthful, burn-your-block-down early Appassionata in the green Brilliant box bests the DG one. Each period has it's advantages and I wouldn't want to be without either. Gilels was a special pianist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 10:09:21 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 09:15:15 AM
Especially when they denigrate Haydn ... or Beethoven's 9th! ;)

They wouldn't dare! Those bastards!    >:(

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on September 24, 2012, 10:15:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 09:09:35 AM
Because listening isn't really about enjoyment. It's active. It involves focussing on some things rather than others, and it involves  appraising what you hear.

Both of these things require a community, a shared form of life. You have to understand what to focus on, and how to apply the value concepts in new cases.

These are Wittgenstinean ideas.

That's a  very interesting extension of Wittgenstein's ideas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 10:28:53 AM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 10:09:11 AM
Gilels was a special pianist.
Something we can agree on unequivocally. Especially regarding his Beethoven. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 09:28:35 AM
But none of what you say requires others to enjoy (or perceive) what you do.

Take a concept that you hear in internet forums a lot -- fiery. I remember reading someone saying that Badura skoda in the Hammerklavier I "invested it with
more speed than fire " (someone on rmcr)

Presumably what's going on there is the application of the concept to a new instance -- and the point of the conversation is to check the perception with others.
After all fire is a pretty complicated evaluative idea. It would be easy to get it wrong. Or rather to apply it in a way that the community of users/speakers, including the tastesetters, can't agree with.

I've had a similar argument about whether Annie Fischer/Sawalich in Mozart PC 21 is tragic or not, and I remember one here about whether some cpt in Art of Fugue was played joyfully by Rubsam. Someone said no, and I went back and refined the application of the concept. All valuable stuff for developing acuity.

So no I disagree -- you do need other people to perceive what you do. At least when the judgments are less subjective than just reports about the listener's states of mind (I like, I don't like)  There's no such thing as a private language.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 10:45:51 AM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
What I can't understand is why some folk seem to need others to enjoy their favorites. Why isn't enough that you love them?

No surprise, that it is nice to share ones favorites, but of course one can enjoy an interpretation which is not commonly approved in this forum.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 10:50:36 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 24, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
My favourite interpretation of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas is Richard Goode's box from Nonesuch Records (1993). The power of Goode's playing,  the beauty, the subtlety of control, the amazingly wide tonality, the great dynamic range, the freshness, the precission, the sureness, the imagination and the empathy are overwhelming. Don't feel free to pick the winner until you listen to Goode. He is simply too good... :)

P.S. Alfred Brendel should be tried too (Decca 2011).

I agree about Brendel - whom I find much better than his reputation when it is about Beethoven, but I find Goode to be too mainstream and unimaginative. I can mention at least 40 sets I prefer to Goode´s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 24, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 10:50:36 AM
I agree about Brendel - whom I find much better than his reputation when it is about Beethoven, but I find Goode to be too mainstream and unimaginative. I can mention at least 40 sets I prefer to Goode´s.
What's wrong with mainstream? And what exactly would mainstream Beethoven be?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
So no I disagree -- you do need other people to perceive what you do. At least when the judgments are less subjective than just reports about the listener's states of mind (I like, I don't like)  There's no such thing as a private language.

You are right, and your comments have quite a number of times made me listen with new ears, Bernhard Roberts´ Beethoven being a nice example.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 11:01:17 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 24, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
What's wrong with mainstream? And what exactly would mainstream Beethoven be?


I'm wondering if he means taking a more mainstream interpretative approach. And if so, I'm interested in what techniques he feels would make Beethoven interpretation mainstream, please.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 11:07:09 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 24, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
What's wrong with mainstream? And what exactly would mainstream Beethoven be?

Well, mainstream is IMO much how Goode plays - listen to him -it is of course not wrong as such, but most often boring.  And I expect more individuality and imagination from a pianist, if he is supposed to engage me concerning his interpretation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 24, 2012, 11:41:18 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 11:07:09 AM
Well, mainstream is IMO much how Goode plays - listen to him -it is of course not wrong as such, but most often boring.  And I expect more individuality and imagination from a pianist, if he is supposed to engage me concerning his interpretation.

Still not clear what you mean. Maybe you could answer Andy's Question:
Quote from: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 11:01:17 AM

I'm wondering if he means taking a more mainstream interpretative approach. And if so, I'm interested in what techniques he feels would make Beethoven interpretation mainstream, please.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 11:53:51 AM
Let me give you an example of what I think is very imaginative playing -- Kempff's mono record of the second movement of Op 111 -- the post war one.

He plays it with such sweep, with such a sense of inevitable flow from one variation to the next, it's astonishing to hear it. I think it's imaginative to see that it could be played like that, and imaginative to find the means to execute the vision.

Contrast it with an unimaginative one -- Pletnev's at Carnegie Hall. There's no vision. Sure, he's making his own performance decisions, but they don't seem to come to much, nothing's being said with the music. He's got nothing to say.  It's just a pianist playing some variations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 12:21:22 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
Take a concept that you hear in internet forums a lot -- fiery. I remember reading someone saying that Badura skoda in the Hammerklavier I "invested it with
more speed than fire " (someone on rmcr)

Presumably what's going on there is the application of the concept to a new instance -- and the point of the conversation is to check the perception with others.
After all fire is a pretty complicated evaluative idea. It would be easy to get it wrong. Or rather to apply it in a way that the community of users/speakers, including the tastesetters, can't agree with.

I've had a similar argument about whether Annie Fischer/Sawalich in Mozart PC 21 is tragic or not, and I remember one here about whether some cpt in Art of Fugue was played joyfully by Rubsam. Someone said no, and I went back and refined the application of the concept. All valuable stuff for developing acuity.

So no I disagree -- you do need other people to perceive what you do. At least when the judgments are less subjective than just reports about the listener's states of mind (I like, I don't like)  There's no such thing as a private language.
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 10:50:36 AM
I agree about Brendel - whom I find much better than his reputation when it is about Beethoven, but I find Goode to be too mainstream and unimaginative. I can mention at least 40 sets I prefer to Goode´s.
And to me Brendel's Beethoven is pedestrian, boringly "mainstream" and plodding--unlike his Mozart, in which I find sparkling clarity. ;)

This and Mandryka's comment remind me of a discussion re. meaning and emotional content of music on CMG a few years back.  I posted a telling series of excerpts from various critics' explanations of Mozart's great G minor symphony. They were all over the map.

And earlier on this thread several folks expressed opinions regarding HJ Lim's Beethoven.  One man's "wayward and deranged" is another man's "courageous rethinking that blows the cobwebs off centuries of calcified performance practice."

I definitely agree about the desirability of others "perceiving what you do." If your perception of the objective qualities of the music don't jive with reality (is the singer on pitch, did the violinist miss his entrance, is the tempo significantly faster or slower than marked by the composer), then you don't know WTF you're hearing and your subjective judgments about it ain't worth diddlysquat. On the other hand, just because you hear the same things others hear doesn't mean that you all must respond identically.

One thing I've enjoyed about reading the comments on Daniel's Mahler comparison thread is the substantial agreement among most participants regarding what they're hearing, even though some hate the same thing that others love. It's also nice to see such disagreements recognized as simply differences in taste and not indications that the other is a boor, a knave, a dope, or the anti-Christ!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2012, 01:16:20 PM
What you say about the Jupiter isn't surprising because the emotional content isn't in the music, it's in the performance.  The music under-determines the emotional meaning -- it's added by the performer.   But we're talking about evaluating/describing  performances.  I guess some of the critics were confusing the Jupiter and performances of the Jupiter.

I'm thinking mostly of post baroque music when I say this.

By the way, Re Lim, "wayward and deranged" is consistent with "courageous rethinking that blows the cobwebs off centuries of calcified performance practice". Though clearly the choice of words suggests one enjoyed the experience more than the other.  Deranged = ( foolhardy)courage; wayward=rethinking.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 01:44:50 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 11:01:17 AM

I'm wondering if he means taking a more mainstream interpretative approach. And if so, I'm interested in what techniques he feels would make Beethoven interpretation mainstream, please.

Not a question of technique, but a question of interpretation. I realize that the word "mainstream" provokes the wrong associations. What I mean is straightforward, true to the score and not that individual or imaginative, in short; boring. This is how I would describe Goode´s Beethoven sonatas.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 01:50:55 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 12:21:22 PM
And to me Brendel's Beethoven is pedestrian, boringly "mainstream" and plodding--unlike his Mozart, in which I find sparkling clarity. ;)

Interesting how we listen differently. I find Brendel´s Vox set rather straightforward, but not his two Philips sets, the digital set being the least straightforward. IMO they are very individual, often focusing upon details, at times almost idiosyncratic - actually the opposite of mainstream.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 01:58:06 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 24, 2012, 01:50:15 PM
For me, this is far from boring, but what I primarily look for in a performance, especially of Beethoven sonatas.

So we look for different things in a Beethoven performance. I look for individuality, and that the artist tells his own story with the music. After all this is romantic and emotionally loaded music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 24, 2012, 02:15:18 PM
I prefer Beethoven played more as a Classical composer and the less a performer emphasizes, or indulges in, the "romantic and emotionally loaded" (your words) aspects the better the performance is for me.

So I did some years ago. But having collected and listened to about sixty sonata sets I have learned to appreciate the individual differences between the performers, and that Beethoven´s music -  from the first sonata - harbours a great romantic potential.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on September 24, 2012, 02:27:07 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 06:59:52 AM
Yay!

He's not too popular on this forum, however. Beats me why. Too much critical AND popular approval? (We do so want our tastes to be distinguished by exclusivity indicating that we are among the very select few with the critical faculties and judgment to appreciate the understated brilliance of Jerry Lee Lewis's Hammerklavier, available only as a bootlegged private recording if you know Guido personally and have the password.) ;)

Even Kovacevich (another of my faves) gets an occasional grudging nod of approval from our resident tastemakers, but Goode?  Never!


Goode hardly ever gets a mention, much less a nod of approval.  I don't have his sonatas but I do have his set of the piano concertos (with Fischer)--but I've never played it enough times to have a real opinion on it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: trung224 on September 24, 2012, 02:28:33 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 24, 2012, 02:15:18 PM
I prefer Beethoven played more as a Classical composer and the less a performer emphasizes, or indulges in, the "romantic and emotionally loaded" (your words) aspects the better the performance is for me.
I don't think mainstream or straight forward when playing Beethoven  means treating Beethoven as Classical composer. Kempff, Brendel do not romanticize Beethoven, but compare with Goode, they are much more imaginative. The problem is that Goode only plays notes with the same tempo (easily cause listener boring), but don't vary dynamics  in the local chords like Kempff mono or highlight minor details which usually ignore like Brendel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leo K. on September 24, 2012, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 24, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
My favourite interpretation of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas is Richard Goode's box from Nonesuch Records (1993). The power of Goode's playing,  the beauty, the subtlety of control, the amazingly wide tonality, the great dynamic range, the freshness, the precission, the sureness, the imagination and the empathy are overwhelming. Don't feel free to pick the winner until you listen to Goode. He is simply too good... :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bZM3UVPiL._SS400_.jpg)


P.S. Alfred Brendel should be tried too (Decca 2011).

Aye, I love Goode as well, especially his account of the Hammerklavier, probably the most memorable Hammerklavier for my taste.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 01:44:50 PM
Not a question of technique, but a question of interpretation. I realize that the word "mainstream" provokes the wrong associations. What I mean is straightforward, true to the score and not that individual or imaginative, in short; boring. This is how I would describe Goode´s Beethoven sonatas.
So you're saying that Beethoven is boring.

To me, Beethoven is fascinating, and a musician like Goode, who is "true to the score," without personal embellishment, but with effortless technique in service of consummate artistry, is anything but boring. I must admit surprise, however, that you could regard Goode as boring but think Brendel's terrific. And you're probably equally surprised that my take is exactly the opposite.

Ain't life grand?! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 02:42:32 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 02:24:12 PM
So I did some years ago. But having collected and listened to about sixty sonata sets I have learned to appreciate the individual differences between the performers, and that Beethoven´s music -  from the first sonata - harbours a great romantic potential.
Surely you don't mean to suggest that those who prefer a more classical than romantic approach to Beethoven are necessarily less sensitive and experienced than you, incapable of appreciating individual differences among performers, and unaware of the potential to romanticize Beethoven's sonatas...?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 02:44:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 24, 2012, 02:27:07 PM
Goode hardly ever gets a mention, much less a nod of approval.  I don't have his sonatas but I do have his set of the piano concertos (with Fischer)--but I've never played it enough times to have a real opinion on it.
I was disappointed by that--perhaps because I expected lightning to strike.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
So you're saying that Beethoven is boring.

To me, Beethoven is fascinating, and a musician like Goode, who is "true to the score," without personal embellishment, but with effortless technique in service of consummate artistry, is anything but boring. I must admit surprise, however, that you could regard Goode as boring but think Brendel's terrific. And you're probably equally surprised that my take is exactly the opposite.

Ain't life grand?! :)

Despite that I frequently agree with Premont on a lot of things, in this case my stance and his are 180° apart and likely to remain so. I suppose that this is the root of my inability to subscribe to what I call 'The Cult of the Performer'. If Beethoven's music is played as Beethoven wrote it (and likely played it himself), then I am more than satisfied with it no matter who plays it. They are merely meat puppets (or should be), IMO.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 02:55:10 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
So you're saying that Beethoven is boring.
Of course not, but he may be played in a boring way. All music can be played in a boring way.

Quote from: DavidRoss
To me, Beethoven is fascinating, and a musician like Goode, who is "true to the score," without personal embellishment, but with effortless technique in service of consummate artistry, is anything but boring. I must admit surprise, however, that you could regard Goode as boring but think Brendel's terrific. And you're probably equally surprised that my take is exactly the opposite.

Ain't life grand?! :)
I never called Brendel terrific. I wrote, that I find him better than his reputation. I would only put him in my top twenty.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 02:42:32 PM
Surely you don't mean to suggest that those who prefer a more classical than romantic approach to Beethoven are necessarily less sensitive and experienced than you, incapable of appreciating individual differences among performers, and unaware of the potential to romanticize Beethoven's sonatas...?

Of course not, because this is essentially a question of taste, and not a question of sensivity. But concerning experience I probably have more experience with recordings of Beethoven sonatas than anyone in this forum except Todd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 02:54:20 PM
Despite that I frequently agree with Premont on a lot of things, in this case my stance and his are 180° apart and likely to remain so. I suppose that this is the root of my inability to subscribe to what I call 'The Cult of the Performer'. If Beethoven's music is played as Beethoven wrote it (and likely played it himself), then I am more than satisfied with it no matter who plays it. They are merely meat puppets (or should be), IMO.   :)

8)

But as to your favorite interpreter of Beethoven´s sonatas Paul Badura-Skoda - one I also appreciate very much -  do you really think he (the Astreé set) just plays the music as Beethoven wrote it. Surely his point of departure is the score, but I think he also interpretes quite a lot.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2012, 03:29:13 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 02:54:20 PMIf Beethoven's music is played as Beethoven wrote it (and likely played it himself)


But how did Beethoven play them, at least the ones he wrote while still performing?  Would it be closer in style to the restrained approach of Goode, or more like the highly interventionist approach of, say, Ignaz Friedman, to name someone trained in the style of the 19th Century?  I'm certainly not a scholar, but from what I've read, Beethoven was far from restrained, and would improvise even when playing his own scores, provided they were even complete.  That would seem to imply that what we consider a "classical" style may not be a good representation of what Beethoven was about.  And it is worth noting that such an approach is still selective in what is observed.  I mean, if someone really wanted to play what Beethoven wrote, there would be no 10-12 minute openings to Op 106, but almost every pianist strays from what Beethoven wrote here.   

And then how to consider other traditions, and pupils, and pupils of pupils; eg, how did Liszt play them, and would his style seem too interventionist, or too reserved?  He wasn't too far removed from Beethoven chronologically, but descriptions of his playing are largely the opposite today's classical approach.  I think classical music has become far too conservative and restrained.  Why must a soloist always rely on a written cadenza in an LvB (or Mozart) concerto, for instance?  That basically runs counter to the entire idea of a cadenza.  What if they do stray here or there from the score in a given sonata?  Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some straight-ahead, classical style recordings, but it only makes sense, at least for me, to hear all manner of interpretations.  Ultimately, what I like, or what anyone else likes, is simply a matter of taste. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 03:33:40 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 03:08:15 PM
But as to your favorite interpreter of Beethoven´s sonatas Paul Badura-Skoda - one I also appreciate very much -  do you really think he (the Astreé set) just plays the music as Beethoven wrote it. Surely his point of departure is the score, but I think he also interpretes quite a lot.

In his case specifically, I think he plays far closer to the original style than most performers today, even those who also play on period instruments such as Brautigam (whom I also like a lot, despite being very different from B-S). I think it to be very likely indeed that any and every time that Beethoven played these works himself, they sounded different than from other times that he played them. Either Ries or Czerny said that if you heard B play The Pathetíque  you wouldn't have recognized it as the same music as what you had ever heard anyone else play. But despite all that, I believe that Beethoven (and Badura-Skoda too) play(ed) it with a minimal amount of Romantic style piano methods. B-S actually wrote a great book on playing Mozart's keyboard works in the most authentic possible 18th century method. I don't believe that he would throw out all that just because he moved ahead 20 years to playing Beethoven. Of course, he could have been totally wrong about the entire thing, but even if he was, then we get around to taste, as you say, and his playing is perfectly to my taste.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 03:42:57 PM
Somewhat OT but as I came across it while googling for historical descriptions of Beethoven's playing style, I thought y'all might find it of interest:

http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven (http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 03:50:07 PM
I do wonder exactly how close to the score Beethoven wished those pieces to be played. I mean, perhaps he was tyrannical when he was alive. But from what I've read, he was pretty free with interpreting others' works in performance, and would have been a fool to imagine there wouldn't be shots taken at a more personal approach in future interpretations. At least in regard to the cadenzas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2012, 03:52:38 PM
Basically I consider Beethoven a romantic composer, in contrast to f.x. Mozart. And I doubt that Beethovens playing style was that restrained after all. Recall his remark:  "Brechen muss das Klavier".
But certainly too much 1900 century romantic style would be inappropiate for his music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 24, 2012, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 02:54:20 PM
If Beethoven's music is played as Beethoven wrote it (and likely played it himself)

Then, at least according to what I have read about the composer, Schnabel would be the one who came closest.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 24, 2012, 04:15:51 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 24, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
My favourite interpretation of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas is Richard Goode's box from Nonesuch Records (1993). The power of Goode's playing,  the beauty, the subtlety of control, the amazingly wide tonality, the great dynamic range, the freshness, the precission, the sureness, the imagination and the empathy are overwhelming. Don't feel free to pick the winner until you listen to Goode. He is simply too good... :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bZM3UVPiL._SS400_.jpg)

Yep, without question one of the finest sets around.





Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 04:36:17 PM
Lots being said here, but by and large I think we are all on the same page.

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 03:52:38 PM
Basically I consider Beethoven a romantic composer, in contrast to f.x. Mozart. And I doubt that Beethovens playing style was that restrained after all. Recall his remark:  "Brechen muss das Klavier".
But certainly too much 1900 century romantic style would be inappropiate for his music.

I don't agree with the first part of your statement, but totally agree with the second part. Beethoven was already 30 years old at the turn of the century. He learned to play the keyboard  (organ, clavichord (clavier), harpsichord (briefly) and finally fortepiano) all before he was 12 years old. The main difference in his playing from Mozart's, for example, is that he adopted a far more legato style. Mozart learned to play on the harpsichord, and his style was articulated and more staccato (Beethoven described it to Czerny as "choppy"). Beethoven was a master of the legato style which eventually swept through the 19th century.

I don't see that championing a particular technique makes you an habitué of that style. Historically, Beethoven was philosophically and musically connected far more to Haydn & Mozart than he was to his own contemporaries (such as Weber, for example) who were already following a very different musical path. Also, despite that he was truly a virtuoso, he (like Mozart) despised pianists who played empty music with a virtuoso flair. That makes him even more non-19th century-like.

Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2012, 03:29:13 PM
But how did Beethoven play them, at least the ones he wrote while still performing?  Would it be closer in style to the restrained approach of Goode, or more like the highly interventionist approach of, say, Ignaz Friedman, to name someone trained in the style of the 19th Century?  I'm certainly not a scholar, but from what I've read, Beethoven was far from restrained, and would improvise even when playing his own scores, provided they were even complete.  That would seem to imply that what we consider a "classical" style may not be a good representation of what Beethoven was about.  And it is worth noting that such an approach is still selective in what is observed.  I mean, if someone really wanted to play what Beethoven wrote, there would be no 10-12 minute openings to Op 106, but almost every pianist strays from what Beethoven wrote here.

I'm not sure if one can be interventionist when playing ones own music. I am very sure that he DID add and change when he played his own music. What got written down was the culmination of many different playings of musical ideas, usually privately or at best with a few friends listening. The only descriptions that I am aware of him playing other people's music are either in little competitions that he regularly had with visiting virtuosos, where he freely embellished and 'improved upon' the other person's ideas in order to smack them around a little bit, or else he did things like write cadenzas for concertos, like Mozart's d minor concerto.  Phrases like 'classical style' are really damned near impossible to define to everyone's satisfaction. I'm not sure what a reasonable alternative is, but my personal definition involves things like virtuosity as a slave of the music and not the opposite. Ornamentation as a decorative embellishment and not to the extent that the music is lost in the embroidery. Tempo rubato used as an accentuated  ornamental effect without becoming the fallback of every bar. And velocity used as contrast rather than empty display.

QuoteAnd then how to consider other traditions, and pupils, and pupils of pupils; eg, how did Liszt play them, and would his style seem too interventionist, or too reserved?  He wasn't too far removed from Beethoven chronologically, but descriptions of his playing are largely the opposite today's classical approach.  I think classical music has become far too conservative and restrained.  Why must a soloist always rely on a written cadenza in an LvB (or Mozart) concerto, for instance?  That basically runs counter to the entire idea of a cadenza.  What if they do stray here or there from the score in a given sonata?  Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some straight-ahead, classical style recordings, but it only makes sense, at least for me, to hear all manner of interpretations.  Ultimately, what I like, or what anyone else likes, is simply a matter of taste. 

I think that Liszt was among the first to begin the practice of rewriting Beethoven to his own purposes. Certainly he wasn't the last, and others went beyond. Just because Liszt met Beethoven when he was a lad and Beethoven watched him play to general approval, for some reason he is given a bye when it comes to the tradition he established in playing Beethoven. However, I submit that Liszt was thoroughly and completely 19th century in every way that matters, and that this divorces him philosophically from Beethoven right from the start. Anyway, I'm only saying that what I have inferred from reading some history has influenced my taste (for better or worse), and I would be the last to deny it.

I really like Kempff. I really like Brendel's Vox interpretations. I really like O'Conor, Hungerford and Annie too. I am not without a taste for variety here, just like you. But that doesn't change my basic preference for Badura-Skoda and the pianoforte. As you say, what I like or anyone likes is simply a matter of taste. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 24, 2012, 04:37:24 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 02:54:20 PM
Despite that I frequently agree with Premont on a lot of things, in this case my stance and his are 180° apart and likely to remain so. I suppose that this is the root of my inability to subscribe to what I call 'The Cult of the Performer'. If Beethoven's music is played as Beethoven wrote it (and likely played it himself), then I am more than satisfied with it no matter who plays it. They are merely meat puppets (or should be), IMO.   :)

Despite that I frequently agree with Gurn on a lot of thing... but this time: come on, Gurn! Are the performers merely meat puppets? You don't believe that, I'm sure. "Interpretation" (in music, literature, law, history and so) it's a thing quite more complicated than that. Anyway, I also dislike the cult of the performer, when it's considered as a sort of co-composer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 24, 2012, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 10:50:36 AM
....but I find Goode to be too mainstream and unimaginative. I can mention at least 40 sets I prefer to Goode´s.

I find nothing at all "mainstream" in Goode's playing. Two distinguishing features stand out to me about his interpretations: his golden tone and his heightened poetry. Not every pianist can climb these summits, especially the poetry part.

Armed with these qualities he relates to me a story. Not a story in the fast lane, but a contemplative, reflective one bent on giving me time to explore the scenery.

This approach may be the antithesis of force-fed Beethoven but the delights it brings is myriad.
   

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 11:07:09 AM
Well, mainstream is IMO much how Goode plays - listen to him -it is of course not wrong as such, but most often boring.  And I expect more individuality and imagination from a pianist, if he is supposed to engage me concerning his interpretation.

What is "individuality"?

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 01:58:06 PM
So we look for different things in a Beethoven performance. I look for individuality, and that the artist tells his own story with the music. After all this is romantic and emotionally loaded music.

What is "individuality"?


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 04:43:37 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 24, 2012, 04:37:24 PM
Despite that I frequently agree with Gurn on a lot of thing... but this time: come on, Gurn! Are the performers merely meat puppets? You don't believe that, I'm sure. "Interpretation" (in music, literature, law, history and so) it's a thing quite more complicated than that. Anyway, I also dislike the cult of the performer, when it's considered as a sort of co-composer.

Well, perhaps I'm allowed a bit of exaggeration?   :D

When the music becomes "X's sonatas" instead of "Beethoven's sonatas" then I am totally not on board. Certainly there is a place for an interpretive decision to be made. It must be within the latitude of the original direction (if it exists). One doesn't see this nearly as much with soloists as with conductors, this is true. It is still there though, as I believe that young lady brought up this summer. Even if it was a very good performance (which I have heard otherwise), it is over the top for me. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 24, 2012, 04:56:51 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 04:43:37 PM
Well, perhaps I'm allowed a bit of exaggeration?   :D

When the music becomes "X's sonatas" instead of "Beethoven's sonatas" then I am totally not on board. Certainly there is a place for an interpretive decision to be made. It must be within the latitude of the original direction (if it exists). One doesn't see this nearly as much with soloists as with conductors, this is true. It is still there though, as I believe that young lady brought up this summer. Even if it was a very good performance (which I have heard otherwise), it is over the top for me. :-\

8)

All is in order again!  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2012, 06:00:44 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 04:36:17 PMI'm not sure if one can be interventionist when playing ones own music.


I have to disagree to the extent that composers can and sometimes do change their mind.  I'm reminded of Rudolf Firkusny's description of learning Janacek's music from Janacek himself, and using a score for On an Overgrown Path that the composer had changed himself, because he had changed his view on the piece.  Obviously, Janacek was a different composer, but somehow I don't think he was alone in making such changes.  While Beethoven certainly went through multiple versions of most works, painstakingly crafting them, it's hard to see how, given the description of just his overall playing style and temperament, he would ever favor locking at least himself into one way to play the music, though he may very well have been far less forgiving of others.

I also must say that I have always seen Beethoven as the first great romantic composer, and as acting as a bridge from what came  before.  The Eroica and the Ninth, Op 106 (well, everything after Op 28, really), the late quartets: all of these works go far beyond similar works from even Haydn or Mozart in terms of scale, scope, and expressive possibilty. 





Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 04:36:17 PMJust because Liszt met Beethoven when he was a lad and Beethoven watched him play to general approval, for some reason he is given a bye when it comes to the tradition he established in playing Beethoven.


I think it has more to do with the fact that Liszt was, by many accounts, the greatest pianist of his age, and a genius in many respects. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on September 24, 2012, 06:03:33 PM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
What I can't understand is why some folk seem to need others to enjoy their favorites. Why isn't enough that you love them?

I am not in that population.  LOL
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: CriticalI on September 24, 2012, 06:09:36 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 24, 2012, 04:40:46 PMI find nothing at all "mainstream" in Goode's playing. Two distinguishing features stand out to me about his interpretations: his golden tone and his heightened poetry. Not every pianist can climb these summits, especially the poetry part.

What is "poetry"?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 24, 2012, 06:20:27 PM
Quote from: CriticalI on September 24, 2012, 06:09:36 PM
What is "poetry"?

Pretty much what I said right here:

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 24, 2012, 04:40:46 PM
Armed with these qualities he relates to me a story. Not a story in the fast lane, but a contemplative, reflective one bent on giving me time to explore the scenery.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2012, 06:00:44 PM

I have to disagree to the extent that composers can and sometimes do change their mind.  I'm reminded of Rudolf Firkusny's description of learning Janacek's music from Janacek himself, and using a score for On an Overgrown Path that the composer had changed himself, because he had changed his view on the piece.  Obviously, Janacek was a different composer, but somehow I don't think he was alone in making such changes.  While Beethoven certainly went through multiple versions of most works, painstakingly crafting them, it's hard to see how, given the description of just his overall playing style and temperament, he would ever favor locking at least himself into one way to play the music, though he may very well have been far less forgiving of others.

No, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I think Beethoven DID change up his music whenever he played it. I was being picky about the semantics of calling that interventionist since it is his own music. If it is someone else playing Beethoven's music, then yes, interventionist. If it is himself, then I look at it as a continuing act of composition that probably doesn't end until he dies.

QuoteI also must say that I have always seen Beethoven as the first great romantic composer, and as acting as a bridge from what came  before.  The Eroica and the Ninth, Op 106 (well, everything after Op 28, really), the late quartets: all of these works go far beyond similar works from even Haydn or Mozart in terms of scale, scope, and expressive possibility.

That I disagree with you on this point goes without saying. Since it has been belabored to little conclusion since 150 years ago or more, there is no point beyond us agreeing to disagree. Romanticism is a point of view, not a kind of music.


QuoteI think it has more to do with the fact that Liszt was, by many accounts, the greatest pianist of his age, and a genius in many respects. 

Nonetheless, he was not a contemporary of Beethoven in the sense of having drawn from the same pool of either style or culture. His music is not Beethoven-like, and his (wonderful) arrangements of Beethoven's symphonies into Grand Sonatas is Lisztian more than Beethovenian. The entire concept or arranging symphonies into solo piano sonatas is not something that a Classical composer, such as Beethoven was, would have even thought of or seriously considered. Not saying he couldn't, saying he wouldn't. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on September 24, 2012, 11:48:18 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2012, 06:00:44 PM

I also must say that I have always seen Beethoven as the first great romantic composer, and as acting as a bridge from what came  before.  The Eroica and the Ninth, Op 106 (well, everything after Op 28, really), the late quartets: all of these works go far beyond similar works from even Haydn or Mozart in terms of scale, scope, and expressive possibilty. 

What you say about LvB in relation to the classical composers is of course right, yet I see him as neither a bridge or a romantic. His late music (in general) simply transcends all attempts at classification, he is just Beethoven and far removed from all stylistic considerations. That may simply be on account of him being deaf (though that is too simple an explanation); but it surely makes him the greatest of all composers in my view.

edit: LvB was "the first romantic" (perhaps debatable?) in his approach to the composers role -but I don't hear his music as very romantic, early on as more classic than romantic, later on as just Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AndyD. on September 25, 2012, 03:51:56 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2012, 06:00:44 PM

I have to disagree to the extent that composers can and sometimes do change their mind.


That's easy to agree with; Bruckner represents the extreme end of that.


Quote from: The new erato on September 24, 2012, 11:48:18 PM
What you say about LvB in relation to the classical composers is of course right, yet I see him as neither a bridge or a romantic. His late music (in general) simply transcends all attempts at classification, he is just Beethoven and far removed from all stylistic considerations. That may simply be on account of him being deaf (though that is too simple an explanation); but it surely makes him the greatest of all composers in my view.

edit: LvB was "the first romantic" (perhaps debatable?) in his approach to the composers role -but I don't hear his music as very romantic, early on as more classic than romantic, later on as just Beethoven.


I agree, the late Beethoven is often just "Beethoven". When Stravinsky said that thing about the Grand Fugue being eternally relevant, he might as well have been talking about the great majority of the late era chamber music. It is so personal...I always looked at those works as being the most exhaustive autobiography in the history of art.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2012, 04:08:01 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2012, 11:07:09 AM
Well, mainstream is IMO much how Goode plays - listen to him -it is of course not wrong as such, but most often boring.  And I expect more individuality and imagination from a pianist, if he is supposed to engage me concerning his interpretation.

Happened to read an article recently about this very point: that because there's so many interpretations of the mainstream of classical music out there, and because it's possible to play them again and again, and because some afficionados now have heard myriads of versions and know them backwards, what they want from a new pianist is surprises.

It isn't good enough to be a fine musician who can play the music really well.  Now, there's a requirement to do something "interesting" or the in-depth listener will be bored because it sounds too much like bits and pieces of the previous 20 versions they already know.

EDIT: Ah. Reading on, I should have kept my original '50' rather than replacing it with '20' because I thought no, that's too high. An exaggeration of what anyone has.  Turns out it's possible to have 60 versions.

Yeah. I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter if you're dealing with the greatest music ever written. After sixty versions, you're no longer listening to the music as a whole when you hear a new one.  You're listening to the tiniest micro-details, waiting for something "special" to pop up that is capable of suprising your brain out of the incredibly well-worn track you've made for it.

It's fairly fundamental neuroscience: our brains are designed to notice changes, to bring to our attention differences in our environment that might represent threats or opportunities.  Anything that is the same as what we already know is labelled as uninteresting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 04:33:40 AM
yeah.  it's amazing to me how unbelievably good any half decent recording of anything sounds after i havent heard the piece in months or longer


when im doing comparative listening and pull out 20+ versions to decide what the best one is, i can imagine the composer going: "for god's sake, go find something else to hear...i didn't want you to do this with it" :eyeroll:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 25, 2012, 04:36:40 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 04:08:01 AM
It isn't good enough to be a fine musician who can play the music really well.  Now, there's a requirement to do something "interesting"

Back in the day, playing the music really well included doing something interesting. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2012, 04:42:04 AM
Quote from: George on September 25, 2012, 04:36:40 AM
Back in the day, playing the music really well included doing something interesting.

The music isn't interesting enough in itself?

The whole reason that the great composers sound great is because they avoid doing square, plodding predictable music. 4-bar phrases, cadences in all the right places, etc etc.  That's the difference between the greats and the competent also-rans we no longer listen to much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 04:44:40 AM
Quote from: George on September 25, 2012, 04:36:40 AM
Back in the day, playing the music really well included doing something interesting.
i wrote a piano sonata in school and had someone play it at a recital.

she played it really well and did something interesting...unfortunately what came out was not what i'd written, even tho all the notes were there

notation will give you a pretty accurate idea of what the piece should be, at least if you're talking about a solo/small group of instruments.  when performers manage to stay within the bounds of what is on the page while still bringing their personal insights is when individuality really matters imho.  i dont wanna hear some pianist modifying the composer just for the sake of novelty or because of some tradition
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2012, 05:11:14 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 04:42:04 AM
The music isn't interesting enough in itself?

The whole reason that the great composers sound great is because they avoid doing square, plodding predictable music. 4-bar phrases, cadences in all the right places, etc etc.  That's the difference between the greats and the competent also-rans we no longer listen to much.

Of course, I am hugely unimaginative by nature, but the music itself is interesting enough for me (if it is written by a great composer. Anyone want to argue that Beethoven wasn't a great composer?).   :)


8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AndyD. on September 25, 2012, 05:34:05 AM
Quote from: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 04:44:40 AM
i wrote a piano sonata in school and had someone play it at a recital.

she played it really well and did something interesting...unfortunately what came out was not what i'd written, even tho all the notes were there

notation will give you a pretty accurate idea of what the piece should be, at least if you're talking about a solo/small group of instruments.  when performers manage to stay within the bounds of what is on the page while still bringing their personal insights is when individuality really matters imho.  i dont wanna hear some pianist modifying the composer just for the sake of novelty or because of some tradition

I usually send my singers and instrumentalists exhaustive sketches of what I want them to record. However, I expect them to add their own stylistic quirks into the performance. It's what I pay them for. If I absolutely don't like something they do, I'll resolutely nix it. But the former is a general rule when recording and performing any of my music, including to a degree ensemble stuff.

I only want my music to be set in stone in the actual score, but when performed I want it to be the individual players getting together, finding (making if absolutely necessary) a harmony betwixt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2012, 05:44:14 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 04:08:01 AMAfter sixty versions, you're no longer listening to the music as a whole when you hear a new one.  You're listening to the tiniest micro-details, waiting for something "special" to pop up that is capable of suprising your brain out of the incredibly well-worn track you've made for it.



Nonsense.  What you mean is that might be what you would be listening for.  For instance, I'm approaching 70 cycles, yet when I listened to Bernard Roberts (at 50-ish cycles) and Peter Takacs (at 60-ish cycles), the thing that struck me about both cycles was how right they sounded overall.  HJ Lim, on the contrary, is all about so-called micro-details, and she's not at all my cup of tea.  How to explain that using your framework?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2012, 05:50:46 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 25, 2012, 05:44:14 AM


Nonsense.  What you mean is that might be what you would be listening for.  For instance, I'm approaching 70 cycles, yet when I listened to Bernard Roberts (at 50-ish cycles) and Peter Takacs (at 60-ish cycles), the thing that struck me about both cycles was how right they sounded overall.  HJ Lim, on the contrary, is all about so-called micro-details, and she's not at all my cup of tea.  How to explain that using your framework?

First of all it's not my framework.  I'm referring to material written by a professional music critic.

Secondly, it has no relevance to me because the most copies I own of any work is 2.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 05:52:58 AM
Quote from: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 04:33:40 AM
yeah.  it's amazing to me how unbelievably good any half decent recording of anything sounds after i havent heard the piece in months or longer


when im doing comparative listening and pull out 20+ versions to decide what the best one is, i can imagine the composer going: "for god's sake, go find something else to hear...i didn't want you to do this with it" :eyeroll:
;D
I've found that comparative listening of that sort isn't very useful for me. Oh, maybe for checking sound quality (though most recordings made in the past 50 years sound good enough to be convincing) or how different performers handle a particular passage, but these days I'm inclined to listen mostly for the sake of enjoying the music, not for comparing details.  And when I am trying to compare, as when doing the Mahler 1st comparisons Daniel's put together, I'm happiest when a sample grabs me enough that I get caught up in listening to the music and forget to make judgments about the playing!

These days I think that my best judgment about a recording's merits are formed after living with it and hearing it many times. Hearing the same work over and over again is too bloody fatiguing for me--although occasionally hearing the same work, say, back to back by two or three different performers can be enjoyable and often helps me to appreciate whatever special something each performer "has to say about it."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2012, 05:53:46 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 05:50:46 AMI'm referring to material written by a professional music critic.


Fine, it's a music critic's material.  Since you presented his/her stance as something substantive, please explain how it works in the context of my listening experience. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:06:31 AM
Quote from: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 04:44:40 AM
i wrote a piano sonata in school and had someone play it at a recital.

she played it really well and did something interesting...unfortunately what came out was not what i'd written, even tho all the notes were there

notation will give you a pretty accurate idea of what the piece should be, at least if you're talking about a solo/small group of instruments.  when performers manage to stay within the bounds of what is on the page while still bringing their personal insights is when individuality really matters imho.  i dont wanna hear some pianist modifying the composer just for the sake of novelty or because of some tradition
Perhaps what some folks are trying to discuss in this context is what we often refer to as "musicality." It's that intangible something that a performer who is sensitive to the music and who has music inherent in his soul expresses when he plays a piece that he's fully engaged with. It's what people who are technically proficient but who just play the notes don't have. It's what Debussy referred to as "the space between the notes."

Just because a performer expresses her individuality with rubatos and tempo variations and dynamic extremes doesn't necessarily make her musical--she might just be quirky and deranged, her "individuality" demonstrating her astonishing lack of musicality and insensitivity to the music itself, in spite of years of training to develop her playing technique.

Individuality that is inherent, expressed subtly from within the music, seems to me a good thing and virtually impossible to be without. Individuality that is self-conscious and imposed on the music by a personality seeing the music as a vehicle for expressing himself (rather than seeing himself as a vehicle for expressing the music), seems rather crass and of a lower order, more fitting to the personality cults common in pop music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2012, 06:10:48 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:06:31 AM
Just because a performer expresses her individuality with rubatos and tempo variations and dynamic extremes doesn't necessarily make her musical--she might just be quirky and deranged, her "individuality" demonstrating her astonishing lack of musicality and insensitivity to the music itself, in spite of years of training to develop her playing technique.

Individuality that is inherent, expressed subtly from within the music, seems to me a good thing and virtually impossible to be without. Individuality that is self-conscious and imposed on the music by a personality seeing the music as a vehicle for expressing himself (rather than seeing himself as a vehicle for expressing the music), seems rather crass and of a lower order, more fitting to the personality cults common in pop music.

This, most definitely.  Except for the bit about pop music to some extent.

The caveat is because much of what I consider is best in 'pop' music is from singer-songwriters: people who are writing material for their own performance, in exactly the same way that Mozart or Beethoven or Liszt did. In which case their personality is part and parcel of the music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2012, 06:12:04 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 25, 2012, 05:53:46 AM

Fine, it's a music critic's material.  Since you presented his/her stance as something substantive, please explain how it works in the context of my listening experience.

Well, if you're able to buck everything I ever learnt about neuroscience, hats off to you Sir!

(Oh yeah. The last bit about neuroscience? THAT was mine.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:20:38 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2012, 05:11:14 AM
Of course, I am hugely unimaginative by nature, but the music itself is interesting enough for me (if it is written by a great composer. Anyone want to argue that Beethoven wasn't a great composer?).   :)
Not I. To me he was the greatest. A Shakespeare.

But if he really meant what he said, the fellow who said that Beethoven's sonatas, when played "straightforward, true to the score and not that individual or imaginative [are] boring" would probably agree. (Of course we know he didn't really mean that.) ;)

Quote from: George on September 25, 2012, 04:36:40 AM
Back in the day, playing the music really well included doing something interesting. 
This is what jazz is about.

Not that there isn't room for this sort of thing in classical music as well. Traditionally, cadenzas are opportunities for soloists to show their chops.

But to me, playing the music really well, with technique devoted to serving the music, is something interesting...and the better it's done, the more interesting it is.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:25:01 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 04:08:01 AM
It's fairly fundamental neuroscience: our brains are designed to notice changes, to bring to our attention differences in our environment that might represent threats or opportunities.  Anything that is the same as what we already know is labelled as uninteresting.
Oooh...very interesting perspective to bring to bear on this topic. Hunter's brains. Masculine brains. Perhaps helping explain why this obsessive comparison of recordings (or sound quality for audiophiles) is primarily a male pursuit.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2012, 06:30:02 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 06:12:04 AMWell, if you're able to buck everything I ever learnt about neuroscience, hats off to you Sir!



Is this why you are not answering the question?

And perhaps you can elaborate on how a few posts on a forum constitutes good science.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:33:55 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 25, 2012, 05:44:14 AM
Nonsense.  What you mean is that might be what you would be listening for.  For instance, I'm approaching 70 cycles, yet when I listened to Bernard Roberts (at 50-ish cycles) and Peter Takacs (at 60-ish cycles), the thing that struck me about both cycles was how right they sounded overall.  HJ Lim, on the contrary, is all about so-called micro-details, and she's not at all my cup of tea.  How to explain that using your framework?
I ain't orfeo, but to me the explanation seems simple:

Roberts and Takacs are both good. Thus they sound right. (Different, but both in the same ballpark.)

Lim is bloody awful, with no more sensitivity to the music than a freight train has to a soufflé. (Different, and not in the ballpark at all but in Times Square with platform shoes, a push-up bra, and enough glitter to make Liberace blush!)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2012, 06:39:12 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:33:55 AMRoberts and Takacs are both good...Lim is bloody awful



Clearly, I agree.  What I found interesting about orfeo's post is how it substitutes some type of theory of listening for actual listening, and makes a variety of assumptions, some apparently rooted in neuroscience.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 25, 2012, 06:40:01 AM
I have been thinking how nice it is to live in a time where one can easily find their preferred way to hear their favorite music. Whether one wants to hear "just what is in the score" or the wild interpretations of those who play in the "grand manner," it's all out there for us to enjoy, whenever the spirit moves us. I'm all for whatever increases and continues the enjoyment.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:45:55 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 25, 2012, 06:01:51 AM
I could have written this.  I am not much interested in music as a competitive sport.  The works I listen to are so well written that most of them can survive a wild variety of interpretations and I am vastly more interested in the music than any "interpretation" of it.  That said, some interpretations call too much attention to themselves and distract (imo) from the music, hence, those I care for less.
And I could have written this. ;) 8)

I have a couple of thousand recordings collected over the years. The overwhelming majority of titles are represented by only one recording, or at most, two. But there are some special works that appeal to me so powerfully and consistently that I've collected a dozen or more recordings of each title, not so much to compare, but to enrich my appreciation and to keep it fresh (and maybe also due to enslavement to that peculiar acquisitive nature humans and squirrels have in common! ;) ).

Beethoven's piano sonatas, symphonies, and string quartets; Sibelius's symphonies; Mahler's symphonies; Bach's cello suites and violin sonatas and partitas and violin concertos and the Goldbergs and WTC; Debussy's Preludes ... all of these (and doubtless others) are such special works that they can not only survive but practically demand "a wild variety of interpretations" -- at least for a fruitcake like me (and several other members of this forum ;) ).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on September 25, 2012, 06:52:22 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:45:55 AM
at least for a fruitcake like me (and several other members of this forum ;) ).
Here I am! ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:53:35 AM
Quote from: George on September 25, 2012, 06:40:01 AM
I have been thinking how nice it is to live in a time where one can easily find their preferred way to hear their favorite music. Whether one wants to hear "just what is in the score" or the wild interpretations of those who play in the "grand manner," it's all out there for us to enjoy, whenever the spirit moves us. I'm all for whatever increases and continues the enjoyment.
And I could have written this, too. Ah, the blessings of political democracy and economic self-determination! No elite deciding for us that we must have X, that it's for our own good because they know better. We can laugh at would-be hegemonists of musical taste like David Hurwitz and Huntley Dent, instead of having our choices constrained by what they ordain.

I'm grateful every day.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on September 25, 2012, 07:06:41 AM
(http://www.thefabulousfruitcakecompany.co.uk/images/page_images/264.jpg)

I agree with David, with most music, I am content with having one excellent recording, but there are some pieces that may or may not be especially dear, and benefit from different interpretations. (symphonies, late Schubert, Beethoven sonatas, lots of piano music)

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:53:35 AMDavid Hurwitz

Godwin's law?  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 07:17:13 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2012, 07:06:41 AM
Godwin's law?  ;D
Ha! Damn near spit coffee all over the screen with that one! ;D 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2012, 07:24:23 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 06:45:55 AM
And I could have written this. ;) 8)

I have a couple of thousand recordings collected over the years. The overwhelming majority of titles are represented by only one recording, or at most, two. But there are some special works that appeal to me so powerfully and consistently that I've collected a dozen or more recordings of each title, not so much to compare, but to enrich my appreciation and to keep it fresh (and maybe also due to enslavement to that peculiar acquisitive nature humans and squirrels have in common! ;) ).

Beethoven's piano sonatas, symphonies, and string quartets; Sibelius's symphonies; Mahler's symphonies; Bach's cello suites and violin sonatas and partitas and violin concertos and the Goldbergs and WTC; Debussy's Preludes ... all of these (and doubtless others) are such special works that they can not only survive but practically demand "a wild variety of interpretations" -- at least for a fruitcake like me (and several other members of this forum ;) ).

Speak for yourself, David. I wouldn't ever have more than 1 (or 90  :-[ ) version of anything.    0:)


:D

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 07:36:33 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2012, 07:24:23 AM
Speak for yourself, David. I wouldn't ever have more than 1 (or 90  :-[ ) version of anything.    0:)
Maybe you should think about getting another LvB 9th -- here's one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/GBaHPND2QJg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2012, 07:37:06 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 25, 2012, 06:30:02 AM


Is this why you are not answering the question?

And perhaps you can elaborate on how a few posts on a forum constitutes good science.

I've got a year of neuroscience at university, not a few posts.

Your senses are geared towards registering change.  Vision - seeing something move out of the corner of your eye makes you look.  Things that aren't moving, don't make you look.  You don't sense absolute temperature, you sense hotter or colder.  You don't sense speed in a car, you sense acceleration or deceleration.  60km/h feels fast after going 20km/h through roadworks, and it feels like a crawl after coming off 100km/h on the highway.  Human beings have been demonstrated repeatedly to be quitelousy at judging the absolute values of quantities, but incredibly good at judging change.

Oh, and music: virtually everyone can tell that a note is higher or lower than the last.  Not many people can tell you the note is Bb.  Similarly, it's very easy to tell that something is slower or faster than what you heard before it, but try judging the number of beats per minute.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2012, 07:37:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2012, 05:11:14 AM
Of course, I am hugely unimaginative by nature, but the music itself is interesting enough for me (if it is written by a great composer. Anyone want to argue that Beethoven wasn't a great composer?).   :)


8)

But you can never listen to the music  itself. It's always going to be refracted through the prism of a performance. I don't buy the idea of "interventionism" -- they're all intervening in different ways.  Lim has made as many performance decisions as Roberts or Badura Skoda. What's needed is some concepts  to evaluate those decisions.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2012, 07:40:17 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2012, 06:59:55 PM

The entire concept or arranging symphonies into solo piano sonatas is not something that a Classical composer, such as Beethoven was, would have even thought of or seriously considered. Not saying he couldn't, saying he wouldn't. :)

8)

I thought this was a very interesting point. I certainly would appreciate it if you could explain why classical composers wouldn't have transcribed symphonies  for widespread domestic instruments -- just a steer to some book or paper would do for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2012, 07:56:17 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 05:52:58 AM

These days I think that my best judgment about a recording's merits are formed after living with it and hearing it many times. Hearing the same work over and over again is too bloody fatiguing for me--although occasionally hearing the same work, say, back to back by two or three different performers can be enjoyable and often helps me to appreciate whatever special something each performer "has to say about it."

There are some interesting questions which come out of this point.

For me, recorded music, or most of it, is very ephemeral. Play it today, listen and learn and reflect, move on to the next one.

That's partly because there's so much of it, and with spotify and torrents, and with storage devices like the squeezebox,  it's so accessible. I can download or stream practically anything instantly or  in a few hours max, at hardly any cost at all. I can acess a huge library at a touch of a button. I can create a playlist to compare and contrast in a jiffy.

Three consequences. 1. listening to a record may be more like going to a recital. It's not something which is repeated, or rarely and not much and at quite widespread time intervals. That doesn't mean to say that the listening is shallow by the way. 2. You can get a huge experience of different styles, traditions, very easily. And 3, you haven't got the sort of emotional commitment to a recording that you would have if you'd paid a lot of money for it, or gone to a lot of trouble to obtain it.

I think this change in listening habits is a good thing.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2012, 08:05:35 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 07:37:06 AMI've got a year of neuroscience at university, not a few posts.



Then clearly you are the leading expert in the field.  What your post fails to do is explain is my listening experience where overall impression trumps specific detail.  (I don't listen score in hand following every little everything; many, and probably most, people do not.)  Still waiting on that one.  It also seems to be a bit light on auditory memory, which presents its own limitations, I would think.  Unless I listen to, say, Gilels and then Gulda immediately thereafter, I am really comparing a faulty memory of one to the other, to the extent I'm even comparing the two.  But then that's always the case.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2012, 08:16:41 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 25, 2012, 08:05:35 AM
Then clearly you are the leading expert in the field.

Your sarcasm is marvellous and refreshing, and beside the point.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2012, 08:21:06 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2012, 08:16:41 AMYour sarcasm is marvellous and refreshing, and beside the point.



Alright, no sarcasm: I'm asking you to explain how your preferred theory of listening, from the music critic you referred to but did not cite, squares with my listening experience.  As a bonus, since you are scientifically inclined, perhaps you can address the influence of faulty auditory memory as well.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2012, 07:37:23 AM
But you can never listen to the music  itself. It's always going to be refracted through the prism of a performance. I don't buy the idea of "interventionism" -- they're all intervening in different ways.  Lim has made as many performance decisions as Roberts or Badura Skoda. What's needed is some concepts  to evaluate those decisions.
If you include unconscious, intuitive choices in your concept of decisions, I agree. But if by "decisions" you mean not just a literal cutting away of potential alternatives, but some sort of conscious decision-making, I question whether you're right.

Of course I don't know Roberts or BS or Lim, but I do know very well what it's like to be so comfortable with and so much inside of something that the conscious ego-centered "self" disappears and all that's left is the doing, with choices made not deliberately but intuitively.

Any performer, whether in the arts or sports or any other arena of activity, knows what I'm referring to.

"Interventionism," as I apply the term, refers to conscious, deliberate decision-making that steers the performance away from the clear intent of the composer reflected in the printed score. And that is something VERY different from what happens when the music is intuitively filtered through the sensitivity, perception, experience, mood, and skill of the performer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 08:52:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2012, 07:56:17 AM
3, you haven't got the sort of emotional commitment to a recording that you would have if you'd paid a lot of money for it, or gone to a lot of trouble to obtain it.
Elsewhere on this forum some of us have been discussing the differences between experiencing live performances and recordings (most narrowly, the difference between live opera and recordings of opera on blu-ray in a "state of the art" home theatre).

I think your point above describes the increased interest and enthusiasm we usually feel when attending live performances, which may enhance our receptivity to and enjoyment of the experience.

Yet I have at times gone out of my way to attend a live performance but been disappointed enough to leave early, and likewise I have bought expensive box sets of music and video recordings of operas only to find little or no enthusiasm for them, despite the 'emotional commitment" entailed by the expense or trouble involved.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2012, 07:56:17 AM
I think this change in listening habits is a good thing.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. If you're referring to the ephemeral nature of much listening today, then I cannot agree.

Sure, it's great for getting rapid exposure to many things ... but understanding and appreciation require much more than mere exposure. There's a significant difference between "superficial knowledge about" and "profound understanding of." A culture that, like ours, celebrates the superficial and ephemeral at the expense of the profound and lasting dooms itself.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2012, 08:42:44 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 24, 2012, 02:37:16 PM
Aye, I love Goode as well, especially his account of the Hammerklavier, probably the most memorable Hammerklavier for my taste.

Your post prompted me to listen to his Hammerklavier I. What struck me most is that he simplifies the music. He latches on to the tunes. So the music becomes very accessible and melodious.

I wonder what you think of someone like Peter Takacs in Hammerklavier I. He seems exactly the opposite of Richard Goode. His performance is strobe lit - as if he penetrates down into the layers of tones in the music's texture. The result is far more complicated, and far less like a sequence of tunes with accompaniment.

Takacs reminds me a bit of Kocsis -- especially in the DVD of Op 111 and in a bootleg Op 2/1 which I have, though I think you get some feel for his strobe lit Beethoven from the Philips CD too -- just not as much.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 26, 2012, 08:58:46 AM
I just looked over my notes on the Goode set. A few things stuck out:

1. He seems to do very good in the early works (Op. 2-28), good in the middle works (Op. 31-81a) and fair in the late works (Op. 90-111.)

2. His best performances are of Opuses 2/3, 22, 31/3, 79. For these he is either the best I have heard, or close to it.

3. His Hammerklavier just doesn't do it for me. I like at least 11 pianists more than him in this work. Pollini I like most of all, with Gulda (Amadeo) and Annie Fischer close behind.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 26, 2012, 10:05:41 AM
Forgive me for the long list. I do not favor Valentina Lisitsa much although she's not a bad interpreter. Still, when it comes to Beethoven there are so many others ahead of her. I posted the videos because of the piano used. It's a Bosendorfer and you can hear (even on youtube) how heavy and dense it is, those unique low octaves (a Bosendorfer trademark), its sheer power, nobility and sobriety. These days you seldom hear anything else other than Steinway. I'd love to hear more Bosendorfers, more Bechsteins, more Kawais and even Faziolis... Each model and each brand has its own distinctive sound that can favor some pieces and composers... ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwysjbPmus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgFkF0UISgc&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZOCQJppHsg&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxkAG8XZwXk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRDcgjvjj2E&feature=relmfu
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 26, 2012, 10:15:54 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 26, 2012, 10:05:41 AM
Forgive me for the long list. I do not favor Valentina Lisitsa much although she's not a bad interpreter.

In my opinion she is. He debut CD on Decca is really bad.

QuoteStill, when it comes to Beethoven there are so many others ahead of her. I posted the videos because of the piano used. It's a Bosendorfer and you can hear (even on youtube) how heavy and dense it is, those unique low octaves (a Bosendorfer trademark), its sheer power, nobility and sobriety.

Both Annie Fischer and Wilhelm Backhaus (the stereo set, at least) recorded their Beethoven sonata sets on a Bosendorfer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on September 26, 2012, 04:52:32 PM
Quote from: George on September 26, 2012, 10:15:54 AM
Both Annie Fischer and Wilhelm Backhaus (the stereo set, at least) recorded their Beethoven sonata sets on a Bosendorfer.
huh...well that makes sense
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 26, 2012, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: xochitl on September 26, 2012, 04:52:32 PM
huh...well that makes sense
Why is that, if you don't mind my asking?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on September 26, 2012, 06:52:41 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 26, 2012, 04:59:31 PM
Why is that, if you don't mind my asking?
i love the sound they make, and fischer's is my fave cycle probably

theres something about the way beethoven sounds on steinways that just rubs me the wrong way.  too smooth/pretty/[evenly-voiced?].  the bass doesnt rip and rattle, the middle all blends in, and the highs are too crystalline.  actually, now that i think about it:  i just dont like the sound of the steinway, unless it's post-romantic music
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 26, 2012, 07:06:11 PM
Quote from: xochitl on September 26, 2012, 06:52:41 PM
i love the sound they make, and fischer's is my fave cycle probably

theres something about the way beethoven sounds on steinways that just rubs me the wrong way.  too smooth/pretty/[evenly-voiced?].  the bass doesnt rip and rattle, the middle all blends in, and the highs are too crystalline.  actually, now that i think about it:  i just dont like the sound of the steinway, unless it's post-romantic music

I just read on Wiki that Richter has recorded using a Bosendorfer. His RCA Salzburg WTC was recorded on one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 26, 2012, 09:22:32 PM
I think Schiff does (did) too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 27, 2012, 06:02:09 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 26, 2012, 09:22:32 PMI think Schiff does (did) too.


He alternated between Bosendorfers and Steinways, depending on the work. 

A few other pianists used Bosendorfers.  Paul Badura Skoda used one for his Gramola cycle.  Robert Silverman used a special recording/playback one for his cycle.  I'm thinking one or two others may have, but I can't recall off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 07:01:14 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 27, 2012, 06:02:09 AM
He alternated between Bosendorfers and Steinways, depending on the work. 

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 27, 2012, 07:55:50 AM
Takacs uses one doesn't he? I don't have the booklet but it sounds like one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 27, 2012, 08:05:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 27, 2012, 07:55:50 AMTakacs uses one doesn't he? I don't have the booklet but it sounds like one.



Yes, he does.  I'm still thinking there may be one or two more others who did, though I can't recall all of the intruments used in all the recordings I've heard. 

I do recall distinctly that Pludermacher uses a modified Steinway with a fourth pedal, and Gerard Willems uses a Stuart & Sons, for those who want different instruments.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 27, 2012, 08:33:35 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 27, 2012, 08:05:39 AMfor those who want different instruments.
What, you're not gonna mention HJ Lim's Yamaha? ;)

Arguably the worst instrument ever used in a cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 27, 2012, 08:45:53 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 27, 2012, 08:33:35 AMArguably the worst instrument ever used in a cycle.



I don't blame the Yamaha.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 27, 2012, 08:49:42 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 27, 2012, 08:45:53 AM
I don't blame the Yamaha.
Feel free to blame the Yamaha (partially). She hand-picked it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 27, 2012, 09:02:45 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 27, 2012, 08:33:35 AM
What, you're not gonna mention HJ Lim's Yamaha? ;)

Arguably the worst instrument ever used in a cycle.

That would be her fingers.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on September 27, 2012, 10:29:21 AM
I believe Arthur Schnabel recorded the sonatas on a Bechstein, and I assume Angela Hewitt's Beethoven discs (is she aiming for a complete cycle?) are played on her usual Fazioli.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 27, 2012, 10:46:00 AM
Yamaha owns Bösendorfer. They also make pretty good motorcycles.

Quote from: PaulSC on September 27, 2012, 10:29:21 AM
I assume Angela Hewitt's Beethoven discs (is she aiming for a complete cycle?) are played on her usual Fazioli.
???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 10:50:20 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 27, 2012, 10:46:00 AM
???

I'm afraid it's time to splurge... again. :(

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/s/Angela%2BHewitt%2BBeethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on September 27, 2012, 10:59:22 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 10:50:20 AM
I'm afraid it's time to splurge... again. :(

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/s/Angela%2BHewitt%2BBeethoven


That listing doesn't include the 2 CDs of cello sonatas recorded with Daniel Muller-Schott (the Presto query comes up with two false positives as well as their recording of the Bach viola da gamba sonatas

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Hewitt+Cello+Sonatas

As to the main entry--I say that Hewitt's Beethoven is like her Schumann--worth hearing--but not sure if it's actually worth purchasing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 27, 2012, 11:05:09 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 10:50:20 AM
I'm afraid it's time to splurge... again. :(

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/s/Angela%2BHewitt%2BBeethoven
Oh, yes, I know she's recording Beethoven, and doing a pretty good job of it, too. I just didn't know that she usually records on a Fazoli--thought that was a unique situation for her second WTC on record.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 11:05:36 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 27, 2012, 10:59:22 AM

That listing doesn't include the 2 CDs of cello sonatas recorded with Daniel Muller-Schott (the Presto query comes up with two false positives as well as their recording of the Bach viola da gamba sonatas

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Hewitt+Cello+Sonatas

Well, this being a thread about Beethoven's piano sonatas, I didn't see the relevance. In any case, here they are: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=hewitt+schott+beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 11:08:50 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 27, 2012, 11:05:09 AM
Oh, yes, I know she's recording Beethoven, and doing a pretty good job of it, too. I just didn't know that she usually records on a Fazoli--thought that was a unique situation for her second WTC on record.

Ah. She describes how this model/make helps in her interpretation (at least in Vol.1) in the notes (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67518&vw=dc).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on September 27, 2012, 01:30:32 PM
The Goodyear box is news to me to. Coincidently, I just listened to his second volume (sonatas 13–18) straight through. A disappointing experience on the whole: I found his playing very monochromatic and with too little variety in the shaping of phrases. The slow movement of 31/2 is particularly stiff, with all the decorative runs played blazingly fast against a rather mechanical left hand.

I THINK I still like volume 1, with the late sonatas, somewhat better. I'm a bit afraid to go back to it right now.

(Sorry, sanantonio, not trying to spoil your news...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 27, 2012, 02:00:41 PM
I find Goodyear is at his best in more overtly virtuosic pieces - eg, 2/3, 53, 57 (especially) - and his handling of 106 is the best controlled among the faster recordings (eg, Gieseking, Lim, even Gulda), though artistically I'll take Gulda.  In some ways he strikes me as a less masterful version of Gulda, and he offers the perfect antidote to Lim's fast playing.  Goodyear can actually manage the tempi he chooses.  I'd like to hear him live, because I'm not confident the Marquis sound is wholly accurate; I've found the few other recordings I've heard from that label to have less than exemplary sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on September 27, 2012, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 27, 2012, 02:00:41 PM
I find Goodyear is at his best in more overtly virtuosic pieces - eg, 2/3, 53, 57 (especially) - and his handling of 106 is the best controlled among the faster recordings (eg, Gieseking, Lim, even Gulda), though artistically I'll take Gulda.  In some ways he strikes me as a less masterful version of Gulda, and he offers the perfect antidote to Lim's fast playing.  Goodyear can actually manage the tempi he chooses.  I'd like to hear him live, because I'm not confident the Marquis sound is wholly accurate; I've found the few other recordings I've heard from that label to have less than exemplary sound.

Todd, do you know Georg Friedrich Schenck's 106? I don't, but I thought of you when I read the following recently in the Piano Classics catalog:
QuoteCatalogue Number: PCL0027
German pianist Georg Friedrich Schenck, a pianist of colossal power and scope, gained an international reputation as teacher of an unorthodox "Creative Interpretation Technique", which resulted in stunning results (international prize winner Evgeny Bozhanov is a student of Schenck).
Schenck the pianist (born in 1953) studied with Claudio Arrau and Andre Watts. He recorded the complete Beethoven piano sonatas and complete piano works of Brahms. His interpretation of Beethoven's notoriously difficult Hammerklavier Sonata adheres to the original metronome marks of Beethoven, a revelation of Beethoven's ideas and spirit!
("resulted in stunning results," hmm...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 27, 2012, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 27, 2012, 02:18:19 PMTodd, do you know Georg Friedrich Schenck's 106?


I don't, but I may have to investigate his work.  Perhaps it blows the others I mentioned away, perhaps not.  BTW, Robert Taub also used the original metronome marks, but I have not yet splurged on volume four of his cycle.  The one volume I have is rather uninvolving - fast and technically sure, but not much there beyond that.  Perhaps I'll revisit that again soon, too.  It's rare for pianists to attempt 106 as written, but not unheard of. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 27, 2012, 03:06:08 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 27, 2012, 10:46:00 AM
Yamaha owns Bösendorfer.

Relatively recent development that, in the last few years.

I know because it was all over the Tori Amos fan world.  Her albums don't say she plays "piano", they say she plays "Bösendorfer" or "Böse".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 27, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
This was getting lost with all the Berlioz posts in the Listening thread and may be of more interest here anyway:

Having missed out on Rudolf Firkusny's disc of Beethoven sonatas, I decided that I would buy a copy (new or used) if it went under $10. So when it sold for $9.99, I snapped it up. A shame I have waited to listen to it for so long. I started right away with Op 109 (my favorite) and it is outstanding. Shame that the sound has some background hiss. When he plays loud, you don't hear it at all, but of course is noticeable when quiet. Thing is, it is so good that I stopped noticing it entirely. I am really floored. The quality of the playing is sky high. I can't wait to listen to the rest of it. If the rest is like this, it will be a discovery of the year for me!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J29Rt%2Bc3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 27, 2012, 07:01:39 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 27, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
This was getting lost with all the Berlioz posts in the Listening thread and may be of more interest here anyway:

Having missed out on Rudolf Firkusny's disc of Beethoven sonatas, I decided that I would buy a copy (new or used) if it went under $10. So when it sold for $9.99, I snapped it up. A shame I have waited to listen to it for so long. I started right away with Op 109 (my favorite) and it is outstanding. Shame that the sound has some background hiss. When he plays loud, you don't hear it at all, but of course is noticeable when quiet. Thing is, it is so good that I stopped noticing it entirely. I am really floored. The quality of the playing is sky high. I can't wait to listen to the rest of it. If the rest is like this, it will be a discovery of the year for me!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J29Rt%2Bc3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

His Beethoven is great!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 04:49:33 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 11:08:50 AM
Ah. She describes how this model/make helps in her interpretation (at least in Vol.1) in the notes (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67518&vw=dc).
Interesting reading, as always with Ms Hewitt, but she says nothing about the Fazoli in those notes that I could find.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 04:51:25 AM
[asin]B008OHV4GA[/asin][asin]B008LSSI4S[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2012, 05:08:37 AM
Other than needing a shave, he actually looks more feminine than Cecilia does. ::)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 28, 2012, 05:42:16 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 27, 2012, 07:00:05 PMThe quality of the playing is sky high. I can't wait to listen to the rest of it. If the rest is like this, it will be a discovery of the year for me!



That is a superb disc.  The Moonlight and Waldstein rate among my favorites.  I have five of the six EMI reissues comprising the Firkusny series, missing only the Schumann, and they are all excellent.  I'm hoping that whoever buys EMI reissues all of his Capitol recordings.  DG and Sony/RCA could hopefully do the same.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 28, 2012, 05:44:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2012, 05:08:37 AM
Other than needing a shave, he actually looks more feminine than Cecilia does. ::)

Took the words right out of my mouth.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on September 28, 2012, 10:54:48 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 04:49:33 AM
Interesting reading, as always with Ms Hewitt, but she says nothing about the Fazoli in those notes that I could find.
It's not a lot, but it's more than nothing:
QuoteThe Allegro third movement returns us to playful mood in a less sophisticated manner than Op 10 No 3 but is full of humour and charm. Its middle section, in E flat minor, is made up of rumbling triplets that contrast totally with what has come before. The colour of this passage would probably have sounded very different on Beethoven's piano than on most modern instruments, and I think we need to keep that in mind when playing it. The fourth pedal on my Fazioli piano which I used for this recording works wonders here, bringing the hammers closer to the strings while at the same time lowering the keys so that the action is much shallower, enabling a swift, clear, and yet quiet execution.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 28, 2012, 10:58:50 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 28, 2012, 10:54:48 AM
It's not a lot, but it's more than nothing:

Thanks for taking up David's post, Paul. I had somehow missed it. :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 28, 2012, 01:09:08 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2012, 05:42:16 AM


That is a superb disc.  The Moonlight and Waldstein rate among my favorites.  I have five of the six EMI reissues comprising the Firkusny series, missing only the Schumann, and they are all excellent.  I'm hoping that whoever buys EMI reissues all of his Capitol recordings.  DG and Sony/RCA could hopefully do the same.
Well I am convinced now and will probably start collecting what I can. I just realized he plays some of the concertos in the Steinberg ICON set that I have (including some Beethoven), so I will bump that up the pile.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 28, 2012, 01:15:21 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 28, 2012, 01:09:08 PMI just realized he plays some of the concertos in the Steinberg ICON set that I have (including some Beethoven), so I will bump that up the pile.


Those recordings, along with the Milstein concerto recordings, are the best things in the Steinberg set.  Firkusny's Emperor is extremely good. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 01:34:18 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 28, 2012, 10:54:48 AM
It's not a lot, but it's more than nothing:
Great, thanks, Paul!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 05:05:25 AM
Off the recent high of the Firkusny, I shot the not long ago acquired Gilels set to the top of the piano listening list. Op. 109, being my favorite, was the first one to hit the player...and....disaster! Oh no! This is one of the more exaggeratedly slow performances I have ever heard and it crosses over the whole piece (unlike some that will start the first movent slow and then fire the engines up for the prestissimo). None of that here. So far, I hate it. I mean, really hate. I suppose there is a strange curiosity in how he is able to play it in slow motion, but the piece loses its cohesion in a major way. Sure, he does speed up in some of the variations (finally), but there is still often this feeling of hearing every single note clang to the detriment of the overall line. This single disaster means this is not a set to be recommended (by me).

For those of you that recommend it - how can you do so with OP. 109 played in this way?!?!?!

[asin]B000ICM0YY[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 29, 2012, 05:11:51 AM
My main problem with the Gilels set is that the outer movements are often too slow, so I can sympathize.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 05:39:07 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 05:05:25 AM
Off the recent high of the Firkusny, I shot the not long ago acquired Gilels set to the top of the piano listening list. Op. 109, being my favorite, was the first one to hit the player...and....disaster! Oh no! This is one of the more exaggeratedly slow performances I have ever heard and it crosses over the whole piece (unlike some that will start the first movent slow and then fire the engines up for the prestissimo). None of that here. So far, I hate it. I mean, really hate. I suppose there is a strange curiosity in how he is able to play it in slow motion, but the piece loses its cohesion in a major way. Sure, he does speed up in some of the variations (finally), but there is still often this feeling of hearing every single note clang to the detriment of the overall line. This single disaster means this is not a set to be recommended (by me).

For those of you that recommend it - how can you do so with OP. 109 played in this way?!?!?!
Wow. I think his op 109 is beautiful. Before throwing the set away, hear his op 53.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 29, 2012, 06:01:38 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 05:05:25 AM
For those of you that recommend it - how can you do so with OP. 109 played in this way?!?!?!

I enjoy his Op. 109 more than you do, but I prefer at least 8 other pianists ahead of him for that work.

I think he's at his best in Op. 2/3, 10/3, 27/1 and especially 81a, where he's the best I have heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2012, 06:29:41 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 05:05:25 AM
Off the recent high of the Firkusny, I shot the not long ago acquired Gilels set to the top of the piano listening list. Op. 109, being my favorite, was the first one to hit the player...and....disaster! Oh no! This is one of the more exaggeratedly slow performances I have ever heard and it crosses over the whole piece (unlike some that will start the first movement slow and then fire the engines up for the prestissimo). None of that here. So far, I hate it. I mean, really hate. I suppose there is a strange curiosity in how he is able to play it in slow motion, but the piece loses its cohesion in a major way. Sure, he does speed up in some of the variations (finally), but there is still often this feeling of hearing every single note clang to the detriment of the overall line. This single disaster means this is not a set to be recommended (by me).

For those of you that recommend it - how can you do so with OP. 109 played in this way?!?!?!

[asin]B000ICM0YY[/asin]


There are lots of slow Op 109s on record, some even slower than Gilels. Elly Ney is much slower, and I like it a lot. Levy takes it pretty  slowly, and so do R Serkin, Claude Frank, Richter-Haaser, Bernard Roberts, Paul Komen,  Afanassiev and Arrau. Andrea Lucchessini and Dino Ciani are hardly Speedy Gonzelez either.  I don't think any of these pianists make the music incoherent.

Most people play this sonata a bit like Op 111, you know, a sort of bouncy prelude to a set of transcendental variations. One reason I like to hear Ney's slow motion one is that formally, the vision is original.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 06:51:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2012, 06:29:41 AM

There are lots of slow Op 109s on record, some even slower than Gilels. Elly Ney is much slower, and I like it a lot. Levy takes it pretty  slowly, and so do Richter-Hasser,  Afanassiev and Arrau. I don't think any of these pianists make the music incoherent.

Most people play this sonata a bit like Op 111, you know, a sort of bouncy and boisterousus prelude to a set of transcendental variations. One reason I like to hear Ney's slow motion one is that formally, the vision is original.
Are there? I have looked through my whole collection of 109s. I don't see any that are slower in the first movement (out of about 20-25, including Backhaus, Kempff, Fischer, Uchida, Schiff, Lewis, Brendel, etc.). Gilels is slowest. Two of them are slower in the second movement: Roberts by 1 second and Biret by about three seconds. It's hard to compare the third movement as the interaction of the variations can cause significant changes and some of the variations can take going slower pretty well.

But slowness per se is not necessaily a problem if the line is held and the piece moves forward. In the first go through, I didn't feel that Gilels did that. I'll relisten with a different ear one day soon. Perhaps knowing what to expect will help.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 29, 2012, 07:13:06 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 05:05:25 AMFor those of you that recommend it - how can you do so with OP. 109 played in this way?!?!?!



In general, I prefer speedy LvB to slow LvB, but Gilels manages to pull off slow LvB, at least for me.  They very traits you mention are what draws me to his playing, and I think he manges to make everything cohere.  I get why you don't like it, though.  I haven't listened to Gilels in a while, so I will try to get to 109 specifically this weekend and give it another listen. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2012, 07:13:17 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 06:51:28 AM
Are there? I have looked through my whole collection of 109s. I don't see any that are slower in the first movement (out of about 20-25, including Backhaus, Kempff, Fischer, Uchida, Schiff, Lewis, Brendel, etc.). Gilels is slowest. Two of them are slower in the second movement: Roberts by 1 second and Biret by about three seconds. It's hard to compare the third movement as the interaction of the variations can cause significant changes and some of the variations can take going slower pretty well.


But slowness per se is not necessaily a problem if the line is held and the piece moves forward. In the first go through, I didn't feel that Gilels did that. I'll relisten with a different ear one day soon. Perhaps knowing what to expect will help.

I think you're a bit hard on Gilels, though it's not  one of the ones I play very often. He may have kept a slow tempo through his career with it, as he did with Schumann's symphonic variations. Or he may have experimented with tempos choices, as he did with the Beethoven concertos. As far as I know the only record of him playing it is the DG studio one.

A quick question. On Lubimov's CD I and II are presented on a single track. Are they presented as seperate movements by Beethoven? Does someone have a copy of  the urtext?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 29, 2012, 07:16:12 AM
Vaguely curious to know, is Kovacevich's Waldstein well thought of?

Because it's the only I've got, but I thoroughly enjoyed it the other day.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 07:34:22 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 29, 2012, 07:16:12 AM
Vaguely curious to know, is Kovacevich's Waldstein well thought of?

Because it's the only I've got, but I thoroughly enjoyed it the other day.
It's well thought of by me. That whole disc--in fact, his whole cycle--is well thought of by me...and one or two others in this world besides his mother.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 07:37:21 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 05:05:25 AM
For those of you that recommend it - how can you do so with OP. 109 played in this way?!?!?!

Because I'm not allergic to slower tempos, and I hope others aren't as well. In fact, the reason I like it is because it's so slow, and different in a way that makes musical sense to me. Since his tempos relate to one another, I don't feel the incohesion you hear. Those first few bars, the opening melody, sound perfect at Gilels' pace: spacious, deep, poetic. Once heard, I can't imagine preferring it any other way and I wonder why he's the only pianist to play it like this (at least among the op.109s in my collection...even Arrau sounds rushed in comparison). I remember Gramophone described Gilels' playing in the late sonatas as Olympian. Good description. I too think it lofty, majestic, serene, and utterly beautiful.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 07:51:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 07:37:21 AM
Because I'm not allergic to slower tempos, and I hope others aren't as well. In fact, the reason I like it is because it's so slow, and different in a way that makes musical sense to me. Since his tempos relate to one another, I don't feel the incohesion you hear. Those first few bars, the opening melody, sound perfect at Gilels' pace: spacious, deep, poetic. Once heard, I can't imagine preferring it any other way and I wonder why he's the only pianist to play it like this (at least among the op.109s in my collection...even Arrau sounds rushed in comparison). I remember Gramophone described Gilels' playing in the late sonatas as Olympian. Good description. I too think it lofty, majestic, serene, and utterly beautiful.

Sarge

I dont think I am allergic - at least, I never went out of my way to avoid any version whether slow or fast.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 07:58:23 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 07:51:07 AM
I dont think I am allergic - at least, I never went out of my way to avoid any version whether slow or fast.

And yet you had an allergic reaction  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 29, 2012, 08:01:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 07:37:21 AM
Because I'm not allergic to slower tempos, and I hope others aren't as well. In fact, the reason I like it is because it's so slow, and different in a way that makes musical sense to me. Since his tempos relate to one another, I don't feel the incohesion you hear. Those first few bars, the opening melody, sound perfect at Gilels' pace: spacious, deep, poetic. Once heard, I can't imagine preferring it any other way and I wonder why he's the only pianist to play it like this (at least among the op.109s in my collection...even Arrau sounds rushed in comparison). I remember Gramophone described Gilels' playing in the late sonatas as Olympian. Good description. I too think it lofty, majestic, serene, and utterly beautiful.

Sarge

This. His Op. 109 is not my favorite - that may be Penelope Crawford on fortepiano, at the moment - but another place where his slowness may be controversial is the fugue in Op. 110. It is not "objective" or Bach-like as it is probably supposed to be, and it certainly is not "Allegro ma non troppo"; I think he's more meditating on the fugue than playing it outright. And yet the cumulative emotional effect is such that by the time he gets to the (in his conception) absolutely titanic final bars, I'm swept up and don't especially care that his style might be in some way inauthentic.

By the way, my favorite Gilels readings are 'Les adieux,' Op 27/1, Op 26, the Eroica variations, and, yes, that wacky Op 110.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 08:07:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 07:58:23 AM
And yet you had an allergic reaction  ;D

Sarge
Perhaps. But it may have been to something other than the slowness. I am fully willing to admit if it is so, but let me take another stab at it at a later date. Perhaps I was just surprised or in the wrong the mood or something.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 29, 2012, 08:12:41 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 07:34:22 AM
It's well thought of by me. That whole disc--in fact, his whole cycle--is well thought of by me...and one or two others in this world besides his mother.

Well, yes, the cycle IS good.  Although I wouldn't say the whole cycle... I think I've mentioned on this very thread before, sometimes he pushes too far.  I'm almost up to re-listening to the Appassionata, and my memories of it are that it's over-the-top.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 08:07:59 AM
Perhaps. But it may have been to something other than the slowness. I am fully willing to admit if it is so, but let me take another stab at it at a later date. Perhaps I was just surprised or in the wrong the mood or something.

Keep us posted. I have no vested interest in promoting the box but I am interested in your reaction to it. How much of the contents of the box have you heard? Would like to know if you get along with his Pathetique and Waldstein.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 29, 2012, 08:16:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
Keep us posted. I have no vested interest in promoting the box but I am interested in your reaction to it. How much of the contents of the box have you heard? Would like to know if you get along with his Pathetique and Waldstein.

Sarge
Will do! So far, for both Firkusny and Gilels, I have only listened to 109. So I have a bunch to go.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on September 29, 2012, 09:12:06 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 28, 2012, 01:09:08 PM
Well I am convinced now and will probably start collecting what I can. I just realized he plays some of the concertos in the Steinberg ICON set that I have (including some Beethoven), so I will bump that up the pile.

I enjoyed the Steinberg ICON set and still have a few CD's to go ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 29, 2012, 08:12:41 AM
Well, yes, the cycle IS good.  Although I wouldn't say the whole cycle... I think I've mentioned on this very thread before, sometimes he pushes too far.  I'm almost up to re-listening to the Appassionata, and my memories of it are that it's over-the-top.
I like his "pushing." It's how I imagine Beethoven himself playing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 29, 2012, 01:55:45 PM
Quote from: orfeo on September 29, 2012, 07:16:12 AM
Vaguely curious to know, is Kovacevich's Waldstein well thought of?

Because it's the only I've got, but I thoroughly enjoyed it the other day.

The Waldstein is one of my favourites and I rate the Kovacevich very highly. It has nearly all the attributes and the most important is a first movement that has a forward impetus. Other Waldsteins I also rate very highly are the Gilels from 1966 in Aix-en-Provence, Dubrovka Tomsic and the best of all IMO - Rudolf Serkin - which has everything
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on September 29, 2012, 04:22:57 PM
speaking of unsatisfactory op.109's i heard kempff mono yesterday and was so disappointed i stopped it in the 1st mvmt exposition...skipped ahead to the last mvmt and also played about 2 minutes before i couldn't take more.  there was no tension or forward drive at all.  it sounded to me like the man had just woken up or something

just out of curiosity i checked out the stereo recording and ended up playing it all the way through [god bless spotify!] and was very impressed, even awed in the last movement


ive been meaning to try richter's beethoven.  is it recommendable?  his live op.57 kinda scared me off.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on September 29, 2012, 04:45:53 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2012, 07:13:17 AM
A quick question. On Lubimov's CD I and II are presented on a single track. Are they presented as seperate movements by Beethoven? Does someone have a copy of  the urtext?
Evidently it's a complicated matter:
QuoteWhile it is true that a carefully proofed first edition must be seen as authoritative in many instances, the autographs often reveal performance details about things Beethoven does not want the pianist to do. For instance, he originally wrote that the pianist should immediately attack the second movement upon the peaceful completion of the first. That 'attaca' mark is vigorously crossed out in the autograph; nothing appears in the first edition to tell the player how to connect the two movements temporally .
From a lecture given by Beethoven scholar William Meredith at the Library of Congress. The complete text is here:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/perform/concert/pdf/beethoven-lecture-2011.pdf
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 29, 2012, 06:50:33 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 29, 2012, 01:55:45 PM
Other Waldsteins I also rate very highly are the Gilels from 1966 in Aix-en-Provence, Dubrovka Tomsic and the best of all IMO - Rudolf Serkin - which has everything

Serkin (mono), along with Hofmann (live Casimir) are the best Waldstein's, IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2012, 10:43:50 PM
Quote from: xochitl on September 29, 2012, 04:22:57 PM
speaking of unsatisfactory op.109's i heard kempff mono yesterday and was so disappointed i stopped it in the 1st mvmt exposition...skipped ahead to the last mvmt and also played about 2 minutes before i couldn't take more.  there was no tension or forward drive at all.  it sounded to me like the man had just woken up or something

just out of curiosity i checked out the stereo recording and ended up playing it all the way through [god bless spotify!] and was very impressed, even awed in the last movement


ive been meaning to try richter's beethoven.  is it recommendable?  his live op.57 kinda scared me off.

Richter is very good in the late recordings he made of Op 109 in fact -- there's one from the 1990s on Philips. It's much less scary  than his Op 57.

It's worth persevering with Kempff's mono op 109 because he is so good at integrating the variations. It's exactly the same in Op 111 -- which is not surprising because the two sonatas are so similar. You need to be listening to a decent transfer -- I like the one which looks like this the most:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bMwT8pS6L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

As far as the worst Op 109s go, I have a hard time listening to Lubimov's.

If you're exploring op 109s be sure to try Ashkenazy's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2012, 01:23:25 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 29, 2012, 04:45:53 PM
Evidently it's a complicated matter:From a lecture given by Beethoven scholar William Meredith at the Library of Congress. The complete text is here:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/perform/concert/pdf/beethoven-lecture-2011.pdf

That looks an interesting lecture but unfortunately the link isn't to a transcript.

Thanks though, it has made me think about the improvisatory side of this music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2012, 01:24:03 AM
Quote from: George on September 29, 2012, 06:50:33 PM
Serkin (mono), along with Hofmann (live Casimir) are the best Waldstein's, IMO.

You were born too late!


By the way this is one of the Beethoven sonatas which I think really gains something special from being played on fortepiano. The  percussive timbres in the first movement.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 30, 2012, 06:21:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2012, 10:43:50 PM
As far as the worst Op 109s go, I have a hard time listening to Lubimov's.
I'd say HJ Lim but that's a gimme. It actually made me laugh out loud.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 30, 2012, 01:24:03 AMBy the way this is one of the Beethoven sonatas which I think really gains something special from being played on fortepiano. The  percussive timbres in the first movement.
I agree. Brautigam is very good if you are ok with a zippy, classicized account, but I really hope Penelope Crawford gets around to the Waldstein too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 30, 2012, 06:35:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2012, 10:43:50 PM
Richter is very good in the late recordings he made of Op 109 in fact -- there's one from the 1990s on Philips. It's much less scary  than his Op 57.

It's worth persevering with Kempff's mono op 109 because he is so good at integrating the variations. It's exactly the same in Op 111 -- which is not surprising because the two sonatas are so similar. You need to be listening to a decent transfer -- I like the one which looks like this the most:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bMwT8pS6L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Is that the mono stuf prior to the DG? If so, got a link?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on September 30, 2012, 10:47:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 30, 2012, 01:23:25 AM
That looks an interesting lecture but unfortunately the link isn't to a transcript.

Thanks though, it has made me think about the improvisatory side of this music.
I shouldn't have assumed the full text (which I've not read) was online. The manuscript of 109 has been published in facsimile, but I've not seen it. However, Heinrich Schenker's edition, which he prepared after careful study of the autographs, shows no "attaca" marking but also no double bar line — indeed, no bar line at all — at the end of the first movement. Most editions I've seen give me ending of this movement with a heavy double bar, which is of course the normal state of affairs. Now I'm curious to read what Meredith has two say about all of this...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2012, 12:13:34 PM
I'm listening to the Kempff through spotify. It's just the DG mono, but the piano sounds better than DG's transfer to me.

I believe that Schnabel left out the double bar line at the end of op109/i, adding a note to say Beethoven left it out originally. Which makes me think I need to listen to his two records of it again to see how he handles the transition.

The obvious problem is that i is quite peaceful and ii isn't, so integrating them could sound silly. I guess you'd have to play i less serenely to make it work. And that would bring  op109 closer to op111.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Carnivorous Sheep on October 01, 2012, 09:18:46 AM
http://www.pierre-arnaud-dablemont.com/projects-pianist/beethoven-sonatas-evolutions-volume1-2544

"This project called Beethoven – Evolutions consists in two albums each one featuring a set of three sonatas aiming to reveal Beethoven's musical language experiments and evolution."

I'm not crazy to be reminded of the language in HJ Lim's cycle, right?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 01, 2012, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: Carnivorous Sheep on October 01, 2012, 09:18:46 AM
http://www.pierre-arnaud-dablemont.com/projects-pianist/beethoven-sonatas-evolutions-volume1-2544

"This project called Beethoven – Evolutions consists in two albums each one featuring a set of three sonatas aiming to reveal Beethoven's musical language experiments and evolution."

I'm not crazy to be reminded of the language in HJ Lim's cycle, right?

Well, not familiar with the pianist, so I can hope his technique and his thoughts on the sonatas are superior to Ms. Lims.   And if they aren't, at least he will only be inflicting six sonatas on us.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on October 05, 2012, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 26, 2012, 10:05:41 AM
Forgive me for the long list. I do not favor Valentina Lisitsa much although she's not a bad interpreter. Still, when it comes to Beethoven there are so many others ahead of her. I posted the videos because of the piano used. It's a Bosendorfer and you can hear (even on youtube) how heavy and dense it is, those unique low octaves (a Bosendorfer trademark), its sheer power, nobility and sobriety. These days you seldom hear anything else other than Steinway. I'd love to hear more Bosendorfers, more Bechsteins, more Kawais and even Faziolis... Each model and each brand has its own distinctive sound that can favor some pieces and composers... ;D

I noticed that Mr. Goodyear uses a Baldwin in this video

http://www.youtube.com/v/sgZ8z7Ztn10
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 06, 2012, 07:24:58 AM
Eric Heidsieck's take on sonatas 27-29 is fascinating. I will have to live with them for a while before 'placing' them. One of my favourite movements is 28:2, the quirky  vivace alla marcia. I've never heard it sound SO quirky!  The pianist underlines and maybe exaggerates its rythmic structure and the aural result is like seeing a dancing skeleton. A jerky, gawky march.

As I write I hear in my mind the sublime Adagio of the Hammerklavier. I'll definitely return to this disc soon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on October 06, 2012, 09:25:52 AM
Quote from: André on October 06, 2012, 07:24:58 AM
Eric Heidsieck's take on sonatas 27-29 is fascinating. I will have to live with them for a while before 'placing' them. One of my favourite movements is 28:2, the quirky  vivace alla marcia. I've never heard it sound SO quirky!  The pianist underlines and maybe exaggerates its rythmic structure and the aural result is like seeing a dancing skeleton. A jerky, gawky march.

As I write I hear in my mind the sublime Adagio of the Hammerklavier. I'll definitely return to this disc soon.
Hmmmm...I'll pop that into the listening stack. Thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 16, 2012, 01:27:22 PM
Looks like the two below are the same, so now one can choose DVD or CD.  (I have the DVD set.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E3CVWu5nL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xMrI3q6xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


That means no unprecedented fourth cycle from Danny boy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on October 16, 2012, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 16, 2012, 01:27:22 PM
Looks like the two below are the same, so now one can choose DVD or CD.  (I have the DVD set.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E3CVWu5nL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xMrI3q6xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


That means no unprecedented fourth cycle from Danny boy.

They are, huh?

And the DVD cycle has just been re-released, too, on DVD and/or blu-Ray.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on October 16, 2012, 03:23:25 PM
So Todd, how is this Barenboim set?  I'm working through Goodyear's complete set, which is very fine--pretty much on a par with Guy and Bavouzet for a modern take on the sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 16, 2012, 04:11:40 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on October 16, 2012, 03:23:25 PM
So Todd, how is this Barenboim set?  I'm working through Goodyear's complete set, which is very fine--pretty much on a par with Guy and Bavouzet for a modern take on the sonatas.

I too am curious to know if it's worth getting.  In fact, are any of Danny's cycles worth investing in?

Not that I'm in a hurry.  I've got Hiesdeck waiting in the 50 CD EMI box, and JCP sent me word today that my order including Buchbinder's Teldec cycle (including the non sonata works) is now shipped.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 16, 2012, 04:31:14 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on October 16, 2012, 03:23:25 PMSo Todd, how is this Barenboim set?


It's his best cycle overall. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28.msg8282.html#msg8282)  Indeed, I prefer it to Goodyear, but not Guy or Bavouzet, assuming they both keep up their current level of excellence.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 19, 2012, 12:05:55 PM
Maria Grinberg's cycle is being reissued on Melodiya, if anyone's interested in that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2012, 09:19:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 19, 2012, 12:05:55 PM
Maria Grinberg's cycle is being reissued on Melodiya, if anyone's interested in that.

I think there are some really interesting things in that set, especially in the later sonatas, at least if you have an open mind about what Beethoven's music means.

Do you know if it has been remastered?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on October 22, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
Bosendorfer-

I agree that the timbre produced by these piano's is fascinating

Apart from Backhaus, can anyone please suggest which other pianists have recorded on a Bosendorfer ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 22, 2012, 04:07:29 AM
Quote from: david-jw on October 22, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
Bosendorfer-

I agree that the timbre produced by these piano's is fascinating

Apart from Backhaus, can anyone please suggest which other pianists have recorded on a Bosendorfer ?

Annie Fischer's set was recorded on a Bosendorfer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on October 22, 2012, 04:40:29 AM
Quote from: George on October 22, 2012, 04:07:29 AM
Annie Fischer's set was recorded on a Bosendorfer.

thanks George  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 05:15:41 AM
Quote from: david-jw on October 22, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
Bosendorfer-

I agree that the timbre produced by these piano's is fascinating

Apart from Backhaus, can anyone please suggest which other pianists have recorded on a Bosendorfer ?

Paul Badura-Skoda's non-fortepiano set was recorded on a Bosendorfer Imperial.

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on October 22, 2012, 06:39:22 AM
Quote from: david-jw on October 22, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
Bosendorfer-

I agree that the timbre produced by these piano's is fascinating

Apart from Backhaus, can anyone please suggest which other pianists have recorded on a Bosendorfer ?

Todd informed me (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg662894.html#msg662894) a few pages earlier that Schiff used it for a part of his traversal, as opposed to the whole.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on October 22, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
Quote from: david-jw on October 22, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
Bosendorfer-

I agree that the timbre produced by these piano's is fascinating

Apart from Backhaus, can anyone please suggest which other pianists have recorded on a Bosendorfer ?

Paul Badura-Skoda.

His first complete set (on Gramola), played on his own and famous Bösendorfer Imperial.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2012, 06:47:47 AM
I take my gramola with some plain yoghurt, usually.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 22, 2012, 06:51:17 AM
In addition to those already mentioned, Peter Takacs and Robert Silverman used Bosendorfers.  There may be more, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.  If you want to get the best sounding recording of a Bosendorfer, Takacs is the way to go.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on October 22, 2012, 07:01:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2012, 06:47:47 AM
I take my gramola with some plain yoghurt, usually.

Do you mean "gramola" or "granola"?  :)

(http://drinkingo.pbworks.com/f/1270355265/Gramola%204.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Granola03242006.JPG/800px-Granola03242006.JPG)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on October 22, 2012, 07:40:43 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 07:06:17 AMThe fact that these are live performances is a big draw for me.   I generally prefer live recordings because they present the artist without a net, so to speak, of studio re-takes and offer an unvarnished representation of an pianist's command of these works.

I don't think you can assume that a live set released today has not been digitally edited to fix errors.   They can fix an error from a rehearsal recording, another recital of the same program, or a repeat of the passage in the same performance.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on October 22, 2012, 07:44:19 AM
Forgotten Beethoven piano sonata receives world première (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/forgotten-beethoven-piano-sonata-receives-world-premiere-%E2%80%93-hear-an-excerpt) (excerpt of poor quality included)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on October 22, 2012, 08:46:59 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 07:06:17 AM
The more I listen to it, the more I like the Rudolf Buchbinder's live Beethoven Piano Sonata set ~
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f4srP4OrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This box strikes me as one to seriously consider for someone's first set.
i've been sampling this and it strikes me as extremely faithful and musical but not very inspired idk.  but i agree it's probably great for your first go-round
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on October 22, 2012, 01:31:21 PM
thank you to everyone who kindly gave Bossendorfer suggestions  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 22, 2012, 01:35:05 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 22, 2012, 07:44:19 AM
Forgotten Beethoven piano sonata receives world première (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/forgotten-beethoven-piano-sonata-receives-world-premiere-%E2%80%93-hear-an-excerpt) (excerpt of poor quality included)

Very cool. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on October 24, 2012, 03:02:41 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 22, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
Paul Badura-Skoda.

His first complete set (on Gramola), played on his own and famous Bösendorfer Imperial.

In fact, that's the marketing point (well, privately, if not exactly media-wide) of the set... that it's UR-and-ECHT-Viennese as can be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2012, 05:54:20 PM
Todd, you said this was Barenboim's best Beethoven, but is it worth spending $40 on?

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/798676.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2012, 05:58:35 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2012, 05:54:20 PM
Todd, you said this was Barenboim's best Beethoven, but is it worth spending $40 on?

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/798676.jpg)

Barenboim's looking kinda young and black these days.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on November 04, 2012, 06:01:06 PM
http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven (http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 04, 2012, 06:31:16 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2012, 05:54:20 PMTodd, you said this was Barenboim's best Beethoven, but is it worth spending $40 on?



Yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2012, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 04, 2012, 06:31:16 PM
Yes.
Now, supposing I'm saving up to buy R. Serkin/RCA and Brautigam (when boxed), and don't know anything of the two Buchbinders or any Backhaus, and have meh-quality MP3s of Kempff/DG (but 16-32 only), still worth those $40?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 04, 2012, 07:36:00 PM
Am presently downloading the complete beethoven (10CDs) by KORSTICK from 7digital for $11.  Surely, there is some mistake!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2012, 07:40:18 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2012, 07:34:20 PM
Now, supposing I'm saving up to buy R. Serkin/RCA and Brautigam (when boxed), and don't know anything of the two Buchbinders, and have meh-quality MP3s of Kempff/DG (but 16-32 only), still worth those $40?

R. Serkin RCA? Do you mean Peter Serkin RCA?

And from your post, do you mean you don't have a single set of the 32?  :o

I LOVE the mono Rudolf Serkin Beethoven sonatas (on Music and Arts and SONY.) More info here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10878.0.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2012, 07:48:31 PM
Quote from: George on November 04, 2012, 07:40:18 PM
R. Serkin RCA? Do you mean Peter Serkin RCA?

And from your post, do you mean you don't have a single set of the 32?  :o

I LOVE the mono Rudolf Serkin Beethoven sonatas (on Music and Arts and SONY.) More info here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10878.0.html)

Ooops! I meant R. Serkin but not RCA: they're all part of the same mega-empire though.

[asin]B008CG1HPQ[/asin]

(It looks like in that box only the Diabellis are listed as mono. I could be wrong...)

I do have the 32, just trying to decide on the next 32. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on November 04, 2012, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 04, 2012, 06:01:06 PM
http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven (http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven)

lol [and i'm not even white]

interesting concept, but the 'musicological' aspect is pretty laughable
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 04, 2012, 11:36:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2012, 07:48:31 PM
Ooops! I meant R. Serkin but not RCA: they're all part of the same mega-empire though.

Oh, OK.

Quote[asin]B008CG1HPQ[/asin]

(It looks like in that box only the Diabellis are listed as mono. I could be wrong...)

No, you're right.

QuoteI do have the 32, just trying to decide on the next 32. :)

Which complete sets do you already have?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 05, 2012, 05:49:55 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2012, 07:34:20 PMNow, supposing I'm saving up to buy R. Serkin/RCA and Brautigam (when boxed), and don't know anything of the two Buchbinders or any Backhaus, and have meh-quality MP3s of Kempff/DG (but 16-32 only), still worth those $40?



Serkin, Kempff, and Backhaus should take priority over Barenboim's third cycle, which in turn should take priority over Buchbinder and Brautigam.  The Serkin set, while incomplete, also has arguably the finest Diabellis recorded, and a near-complete concerto cycle that is top flight.  Well, it is complete in that all five are included, but the E flat with Bernstein is included in favor of the Ormandy, which was in (excellent sounding) mono.  The Ormandy is one of the best ever.  Of course, so is the Bernstein.  And the earlier concertos are all superb.  I look back now at my brief hesitation in buying the Serkin box, since I had almost everything already, as really rather silly.  Much better to have everything.  Had Serkin done a complete cycle, it might have surpassed even Ms Fischer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on November 05, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
Quote from: Fred on November 04, 2012, 07:36:00 PM
Am presently downloading the complete beethoven (10CDs) by KORSTICK from 7digital for $11.  Surely, there is some mistake!
Korstick can be bangy and mannered, but there is a lot to like about this cycle. (I've heard roughly half of it.) Good find, pricing mistake or not!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 05, 2012, 10:58:12 AM
Quote from: George on November 04, 2012, 11:36:43 PM
Which complete sets do you already have?

I think I might just have one.  :o

- My first set was Lucchesini's, a Todd recommendation.
- Incompletes: I have Gilels/DG, which will be forever incomplete (sad); Vols. 1-2 of Francois-Frederic Guy, which I'll buy the rest of or review for MusicWeb; and #s 16-32 of the stereo DG Kempff, on 256kbps MP3s.
- Misc recitals: I have various sonatas by Richter (live), Gilels (live), Pollini, Moravec ("Pastoral"), Schnabel, Michelangeli, Jando, Brautigam, Crawford, Komen.
- Naxos Music Library: have listened to Kovacevich, Takacs, Annie Fischer, Goodyear, and tragically HJ Lim, though even more tragically, the EMI addition so far does not include Heidsieck.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on November 06, 2012, 02:34:55 PM
i just heard brendel's old vox recordings [sonatas 17-26] and im terribly impressed

i had the cds laying around for years since i bought them on sale [i was still in high school haha] and wasnt very impressed so i put them away in favor of more fire and brimstone interpretations

now coming back to them i was startled by the clarity and intelligence.  ive seldom heard Beethoven sound so 'smart' and fresh, yet still weighty and passionate.

i almost sold these off for a dollar at a yard sale!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 01:55:53 PM
A pianist friend of mine sent me a Youtube link of Richter playing the Appassionata. After listening to it, it became clear to me that I need more of his Beethoven in my collection! There are so many different options though: which recordings are must-haves?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: trung224 on November 08, 2012, 03:07:39 PM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 01:55:53 PM
A pianist friend of mine sent me a Youtube link of Richter playing the Appassionata. After listening to it, it became clear to me that I need more of his Beethoven in my collection! There are so many different options though: which recordings are must-haves?
I think the best way ist the Richter's edition on Brilliant Classics, sound is very listenable, great performances attractive price
[asin]B008L62XEG[/asin]
    and the mid-price CD on Regis is also great
[asin]B007EVQMMI[/asin]
   And indeed, the classic recital in Leipzig , one of greatest Beethoven recital
[asin]B00004R8WM[/asin]
   Beethoven's Variations is one of Richter's strength and if you can tolerate mono sound, this dazzling performance is priceless
[asin]B004UBB3VU[/asin]
   His "Hammerklavier" is also great
[asin]B00004Y6OG[/asin]
   IMHO, you should avoid Richter's Beethoven performance on Decca, which capture him in late period with technical decline and loosing the imperious, power and imaginative quality, which make Richter special. Richter is not Gilels, who played slow even when he still young (as I know when he ist 50) and created the great performance for this style,  Richter slowed down because he didn't have enough technique and memory to play fast. Indeed, when he aged, he played Bach more efficiently but not Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 08, 2012, 03:43:07 PM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 01:55:53 PM
A pianist friend of mine sent me a Youtube link of Richter playing the Appassionata. After listening to it, it became clear to me that I need more of his Beethoven in my collection! There are so many different options though: which recordings are must-haves?

(http://www.ruslania.com/pictures/big/4600317007325.jpg)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004R8WM.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 03:55:05 PM
Thanks, both of you! I was considering the Regis disc since it has both the Appassionata and the Tempest sonata, which is one of my favourites of the 32. I think I'll get that one and/or the 3 disc Brilliant set to start me off.

George, that Melodiya disc looks very interesting as well. When was it recorded?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 08, 2012, 04:02:58 PM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 03:55:05 PM
Thanks, both of you! I was considering the Regis disc since it has both the Appassionata and the Tempest sonata, which is one of my favourites of the 32. I think I'll get that one and/or the 3 disc Brilliant set to start me off.

George, that Melodiya disc looks very interesting as well. When was it recorded?
The Brilliant set is something like $10, so you can get both. It really is excellent. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 08, 2012, 04:09:22 PM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 03:55:05 PM
Thanks, both of you! I was considering the Regis disc since it has both the Appassionata and the Tempest sonata, which is one of my favourites of the 32. I think I'll get that one and/or the 3 disc Brilliant set to start me off.

George, that Melodiya disc looks very interesting as well. When was it recorded?

1952 and 1959
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 08, 2012, 04:19:42 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V1EOthaWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Today I listened to the last 3 CDs of this box set. They contain Beethoven sonata recordings by Cortot. However, only Les Adieux is presented in it's entirety, while Appassionata, Moonlight, Pathetique, Op. 90 and Op. 79 are presented in shorter snippets, interspersed with commentary (in French) by the pianist. The recordings were made at the very end of his life, just a few years before he passed away. I was annoyed by the commentary interrupting the music, so I edited the commentary out using Audacity. The resultant music was under 65 minutes long!

Sadly, Cortot's playing here is the worst I have ever heard. His technique really had fallen off and he makes numerous mistakes. The sound is wonderful and we really get to hear Cortot's tone, but the fact that most of it is abbreviated and what is there is not played very well is a big disappointment.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 08, 2012, 06:57:00 PM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2012, 04:19:42 PMSadly, Cortot's playing here is the worst I have ever heard.



A bummer, though not unexpected.  I'll still buy for all the other items in the set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 08, 2012, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2012, 04:19:42 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V1EOthaWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Today I listened to the last 3 CDs of this box set. They contain Beethoven sonata recordings by Cortot. However, only Les Adieux is presented in it's entirety, while Appassionata, Moonlight, Pathetique, Op. 90 and Op. 79 are presented in shorter snippets, interspersed with commentary (in French) by the pianist. The recordings were made at the very end of his life, just a few years before he passed away. I was annoyed by the commentary interrupting the music, so I edited the commentary out using Audacity. The resultant music was under 65 minutes long!

Sadly, Cortot's playing here is the worst I have ever heard. His technique really had fallen off and he makes numerous mistakes. The sound is wonderful and we really get to hear Cortot's tone, but the fact that most of it is abbreviated and what is there is not played very well is a big disappointment.

Why is he making a commentary? Is it a masterclass?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 09, 2012, 01:22:11 AM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2012, 03:43:07 PM
(http://www.ruslania.com/pictures/big/4600317007325.jpg)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004R8WM.01.L.jpg)

These are two of the recordings of Richter's LvB that I would wholeheartedly recommend. I'd also add this.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4122KCJ5VGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Op 31/2 and Op 31/3 are just brilliant

His early LvB is also great and his only recorded take on Op 14/2 is a real winner.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 09, 2012, 03:21:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 08, 2012, 08:45:03 PM
Why is he making a commentary? Is it a masterclass?

I am not sure, it's in French.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on November 09, 2012, 06:20:16 AM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2012, 04:19:42 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V1EOthaWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Today I listened to the last 3 CDs of this box set. They contain Beethoven sonata recordings by Cortot. However, only Les Adieux is presented in it's entirety, while Appassionata, Moonlight, Pathetique, Op. 90 and Op. 79 are presented in shorter snippets, interspersed with commentary (in French) by the pianist. The recordings were made at the very end of his life, just a few years before he passed away. I was annoyed by the commentary interrupting the music, so I edited the commentary out using Audacity. The resultant music was under 65 minutes long!

You started with a lecture, edited out the lecture itself and pasted the musical examples together, and were surprised that the result was unsatisfactory.  Huh?   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 07:17:31 AM
Quote from: George on November 09, 2012, 03:21:33 AM
I am not sure, it's in French.

This sounds very likely to be from the same material  as the masterclasses which were edited by Murray Perrahia and published by EMI. If that's right EMI have been slightly misleading in their publicity around that box I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 10, 2012, 07:10:49 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 05, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
Korstick can be bangy and mannered, but there is a lot to like about this cycle. (I've heard roughly half of it.) Good find, pricing mistake or not!

Another cheapo is the complete Pludermacher on Quoboz for 9 euro.  Am listening right now, and I think he's fantastic.  In fact it's amazing the differences in price between different downloading services.  Same set on Itunes is $190 (seriously).  Do they have monkeys organising this stuff.  My next priority is definitely Pludemacher's complete Schubert. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on November 11, 2012, 01:35:57 AM
Quote from: trung224 on November 08, 2012, 03:07:39 PM
   I think the best way ist the Richter's edition on Brilliant Classics, sound is very listenable, great performances attractive price
[asin]B008L62XEG[/asin]
I bought this yesterday. Have only listened to a few pieces so far so I can't really comment yet, but his opus 111 is to die for! I was completely enthralled and amazed. Can't wait to delve further into this great pianist's recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 11, 2012, 06:16:14 AM
Andrea Lucchesini gave a recital of Op 106, Op 78 and some Berio  in the  Beethovenhaus, Bonn on 14 September 2009. The recital's on symphonyshare.

The Op 106 is good. It's got some of the ebb and flow of his first recording, the one that Berio liked so much, but it has more colour and more intensity of sound, because he uses a Graf. Worth taking and cherishing for sure.

Listening to it made me dig out Paul Badura Skoda's notes on Op 106 where he says:

Despite my familiarity with the pianofortes of Beethoven's time, I doubted for
a long time that an adequate reproduction of opus 106 might be possible on
an instrument of the period. For this Sonata, as no other, looks more
resolutely towards the future and seems to anticipate the widest resources of
the modern piano, its more expressive plenitude of tone, its singing high
register and its more elaborate mechanism. I owe to the initiative and
insistence of Michel Bernstein to have attempted such a daring experiment. I
myself was surprised by the result: the insufficient volume of Conrad Graf's
piano is compensated by its dramatic intensity, its amazing songlike
expressiveness and a sometimes unimaginable richness of colours. We thus
have additional evidence that even in his last creative period Beethoven was a
realist to a much higher degree than is generally thought. Indeed the
instrument is used here to its farthest limits, probably farther than its maker
of genius could have envisaged. Beethoven's phrase "the piano must be
broken" ("Brechen soll das Klavier!") takes its full meaning here.
I do not think that a pianist, were he the greatest, can assume by himself all
the aspects of this Sonata. But if I succeed in conveying a significant part of
this exalting and overwhelming musical experience, I shall have attained my
goal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 11, 2012, 06:19:15 AM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 11, 2012, 01:35:57 AM
I bought this yesterday. Have only listened to a few pieces so far so I can't really comment yet, but his opus 111 is to die for! I was completely enthralled and amazed. Can't wait to delve further into this great pianist's recordings.

When did he play that Op 111 there? For me it's the recordings he made in the late 1980s and 1990s which are the most precious. I'm not as keen as others seem to be on that Leipzig concert, for example, even though it's very exciting pianism.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 11, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 11, 2012, 06:19:15 AM
When did he play that Op 111 there?

1/12/75, according to the notes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scarpia on November 11, 2012, 07:44:38 AM
Quote from: George on November 11, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
1/12/75, according to the notes.

You have notes?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 11, 2012, 07:51:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2012, 07:44:38 AM
You have notes?

I have the gigantic Russian Legends box, 100CDs, and it confirms Jan 12 1975. There's a booklet, but the recording dates are listed on the cardboard CD holders, in my set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 10:14:16 AM
Andsnes talks Beethoven (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/leif-ove-andsnes-the-intrepid-explorer-of-beethoven). And no, he isn't going to record all the sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on November 12, 2012, 10:33:27 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 10:14:16 AM
Andsnes talks Beethoven (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/leif-ove-andsnes-the-intrepid-explorer-of-beethoven). And no, he isn't going to record all the sonatas.

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
:( :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2012, 10:53:52 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 10:14:16 AMAnd no, he isn't going to record all the sonatas.



That sucks.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 12, 2012, 08:09:41 PM
The article doesn't really discuss the sonatas so much, nor does it rule out a complete sonata set someday. It just sounds like he is currently focusing on the concertos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on November 13, 2012, 12:51:16 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 12, 2012, 08:09:41 PM
The article doesn't really discuss the sonatas so much...

I did say Beethoven.

Quote...nor does it rule out a complete sonata set someday.

I'm sorry if I misled you there, but most people seem to have correctly surmised that what I said was in relation to the recordings which are to be released by Sony within the next few years. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 13, 2012, 06:57:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mURB6WlLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Korstick's cycle is now out in box form.  I think I'll plump for it, even though the two discs I own don't wow me. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 16, 2012, 03:56:56 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 13, 2012, 07:08:20 AM
The entire set is also on MOG (and I assume Spotify) - so I won't be buying it, although I will listen to some (maybe most) of it.  His performance of No. 29 I thought was eccentric, so his was not a cycle I would've purchased in any event.


I downloaded the complete set on 7digital for $10.  I think it's also very cheap on amazon for some reason.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 17, 2012, 01:10:38 PM
Someone has put Paul Badura Skoda's Westminster Beethoven LP on symphonyshare.


> I've had a chance to listen to the Appassionata and it surpassed my
> expectations in terms of interpretation. It's interesting because it's
> quite a noble interpretation, which I think is right for heroic
> Beethoven. Very involved playing too, which I found captivating.  It's
> great that this recording has been brought back to life.

For the first time I can hear why Badura Skoda was so highly thought of by traditional conductors like Furtwangler.

> I like the sound of the transfer on symphonyshare. The piano tone is  quite truthful and has that sort
> of warm bloom that people missed in the early days of CD. It would be
> wonderful if someone with the technical skills could remove some of
> the surface noise and pre echo. I bet this could be made to sound very
> good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on November 18, 2012, 08:08:07 AM
András Schiff is about to embark upon a series of recitals featuring the 32, beginning tomorrow at Wigmore Hall. If you know or find out about any webcast of these recitals, I'd appreciate it if you could post a link here.

http://www.wigmore-hall.org.uk/whats-on/series/schiffbeethovenpianosonatas
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on November 18, 2012, 09:42:52 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 18, 2012, 08:08:07 AM
András Schiff is about to embark upon a series of recitals featuring the 32, beginning tomorrow at Wigmore Hall. If you know or find out about any webcast of these recitals, I'd appreciate it if you could post a link here.

http://www.wigmore-hall.org.uk/whats-on/series/schiffbeethovenpianosonatas
Wow, hot on the heels of his touring both books of the Bach WTC. That's quite a commitment to the old and new Testaments!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on November 18, 2012, 11:48:49 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 18, 2012, 08:08:07 AM
András Schiff is about to embark upon a series of recitals featuring the 32, beginning tomorrow at Wigmore Hall. If you know or find out about any webcast of these recitals, I'd appreciate it if you could post a link here.

http://www.wigmore-hall.org.uk/whats-on/series/schiffbeethovenpianosonatas

The recitals will be released on CD at some point.  I already have quite a few CD's in the Wigmore Hall series ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on November 25, 2012, 04:34:37 AM
A  "hairs of the back of the neck" Waldstein imo found on thus budget set:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Solomon-Master-Pianist/dp/B00166QKJM/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1353850248&sr=1-1

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513%2Bo5TcQUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 25, 2012, 05:22:02 AM
Is that the same Waldstein that was released on the Testament label?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2012, 05:39:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 17, 2012, 01:10:38 PM
Someone has put Paul Badura Skoda's Westminster Beethoven LP on symphonyshare.


> I've had a chance to listen to the Appassionata and it surpassed my
> expectations in terms of interpretation. It's interesting because it's
> quite a noble interpretation, which I think is right for heroic
> Beethoven. Very involved playing too, which I found captivating.  It's
> great that this recording has been brought back to life.

For the first time I can hear why Badura Skoda was so highly thought of by traditional conductors like Furtwangler.

> I like the sound of the transfer on symphonyshare. The piano tone is  quite truthful and has that sort
> of warm bloom that people missed in the early days of CD. It would be
> wonderful if someone with the technical skills could remove some of
> the surface noise and pre echo. I bet this could be made to sound very
> good.

This is the set that he recorded on a Bösendorfer and was released on CD 5 or 6 years ago?  Maybe the sound was cleaned up for the transfer?

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 25, 2012, 06:16:31 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2012, 05:39:02 AM
This is the set that he recorded on a Bösendorfer and was released on CD 5 or 6 years ago?  Maybe the sound was cleaned up for the transfer?

8)

As far as I know no, it's never been released on C. I haven't had a chance to hear the pathetique or moonlight -- a friend wrote to me to say that there are some cut outs on the pathetique, so it's probably unrestoreable.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on November 25, 2012, 06:37:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2012, 05:39:02 AM
This is the set that he recorded on a Bösendorfer and was released on CD 5 or 6 years ago?  Maybe the sound was cleaned up for the transfer?

8)

As Mandryka says the answer is no.

The Westminster recordings only include the "name" sonatas (the "Moonlight", Pathetique", Appassionata", "Pastoral", and "Tempest") and were recorded during the 50s. I don't know the instrument used here by Badura-Skoda.

My real doubt is the following: Is The Musical Heritage Society set the same released on Gramola some years ago?

I mean:

Is this 11-LP set the same set

(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/0/7429/paul_badura_skoda.jpg)

than this 9-CD set?

[asin]B0000669UV[/asin]

I'm almost sure that they are identical.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on November 25, 2012, 08:06:59 AM
Quote from: George on November 25, 2012, 05:22:02 AM
Is that the same Waldstein that was released on the Testament label?

Hi George

I dont have the testament disc, however according to the EMI booklet this waldstein was recorded 15th June 1952 at Abbey Road.

hth

what are your thoughts on the Testament Waldstein?

David
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 25, 2012, 08:43:26 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 25, 2012, 06:37:54 AMI mean:

Is this 11-LP set the same set

(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/0/7429/paul_badura_skoda.jpg)

than this 9-CD set?

[asin]B0000669UV[/asin]


The pianist's own website lists them as different cycles. (http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html#Beethoven)  If accurate, that means Paul Badura Skoda is part of the three cycle club.  Now, how the hell do I get a copy of his first and third cycles?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on November 25, 2012, 09:16:08 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 25, 2012, 08:43:26 AM

The pianist's own website lists them as different cycles. (http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html#Beethoven)  If accurate, that means Paul Badura Skoda is part of the three cycle club.  Now, how the hell do I get a copy of his first and third cycles?

Unfortunately those recordings of The Musical Heritage Society are often a pain in the ass, both in terms of availability and information. For instance, the information about Schumann's complete solo piano works recorded by Jörg Demus, is a true nightmare.

Anyway, I wouldn't bet that Badura-Skoda recorded three complete Beethoven's cycles. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 25, 2012, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 25, 2012, 09:16:08 AMAnyway, I wouldn't bet that Badura-Skoda recorded three complete Beethoven's cycles.



I don't bet on such things, though, again, the pianist's own web site lists three cycles.  Maybe he and the people who help run the site know more than people here, or perhaps not. 

Potential issues with information aside, perhaps someone who owns the MHS set could look at the recording and/or copyright dates.  If they are before 1970, then there are three cycles.  If not, probably not.  Anyone here actually own the MHS set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on November 25, 2012, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 25, 2012, 09:36:01 AM


I don't bet on such things, though, again, the pianist's own web site lists three cycles.  Maybe he and the people who help run the site know more than people here, or perhaps not. 

Potential issues with information aside, perhaps someone who owns the MHS set could look at the recording and/or copyright dates.  If they are before 1970, then there are three cycles.  If not, probably not.  Anyone here actually own the MHS set?


Jed Distler on ClassicsToday:

QuotePaul Badura-Skoda and the Beethoven sonatas have had a long discographical relationship since the 1950s. The pianist first recorded five "name" sonatas for Westminster (the "Moonlight", Pathetique", Appassionata", "Pastoral", and "Tempest"). He later undertook all 32 sonatas for an LP release brought out in the U.S. by the Musical Heritage Society to tie in with Beethoven's 1970 bicentenary. More recently, he remade the cycle for Astrée, using period instruments. According to Badura-Skoda's American management, the present 1969/70 recordings remained unedited and unreleased until now. In the main, they were worth the wait.

i.e.: He affirms these are different recordings.


Additionally, I also found on the Web this enigmatic list:

http://www.shafferpianos.com/cds/lvb32.html

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 25, 2012, 10:02:52 AM
Quote from: david-jw on November 25, 2012, 08:06:59 AM
Hi George

I dont have the testament disc, however according to the EMI booklet this waldstein was recorded 15th June 1952 at Abbey Road.

Then they are the same. Thanks!

Quotewhat are your thoughts on the Testament Waldstein?

David

I have yet to hear it. I plan to soon make my way through the Solomon LvB sonata and concerto recordings, as I have now collected them all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 25, 2012, 10:57:25 AM
This was the recording that introduced me to the Waldstein (on LP) and it's rather special to me. What distinguishes it is the pearl like clarity that Solomon achieves in the first movement. it's so cleanly articulated, almost jaw droppingly featherweight in some passages, yet he maintains the forward impetus that this movement must have. The Introduzione is played with the right gravitas and leads beautifully into the Rondo.

While it is not at the top of my list of Waldsteins it is certainly in my top 5. Top spot goes to Rudolf Serkin, recorded at approximately the same time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 25, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
Quote from: Holden on November 25, 2012, 10:57:25 AM
Top spot goes to Rudolf Serkin...

Indeed.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 25, 2012, 06:15:40 PM
Slightly off-topic, but this morning I remembered to alert Todd that Andreas Staier's new Diabelli Variations CD is recorded on an almost identical piano to the one used by Penelope Crawford. I think it's a modern reconstruction.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on November 26, 2012, 01:32:57 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 25, 2012, 08:43:26 AM

The pianist's own website lists them as different cycles. (http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html#Beethoven)  If accurate, that means Paul Badura Skoda is part of the three cycle club.  Now, how the hell do I get a copy of his first and third cycles?

This re-release might interest you:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/9003643987432.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-1770-1827-Klaviersonaten-Nr-1-32/hnum/1674991

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2012, 01:37:39 PM
Quote from: Que on November 26, 2012, 01:32:57 PMThis re-release might interest you



I've got the first Gramola issue (pictured above) of that cycle - it's pretty darned good.  I want the two cycles by him I don't have.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on November 26, 2012, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: Que on November 26, 2012, 01:32:57 PM
This re-release might interest you:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/9003643987432.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-1770-1827-Klaviersonaten-Nr-1-32/hnum/1674991

Q

Apparently, this re-release differs of the previous release on Gramola, including an extra disc (then now it's a 10-CD set). 

QuoteSämtliche Klaviersonaten

This unforgettable and much vaunted recording of all the piano sonatas by Ludwig van Beethoven by the legendary Austrian pianist Paul Badura-Skoda in the years 1969/70 is now being re-released with an additional CD presenting two more, unpublished interpretations of the famous 'Hammerklavier' Sonata No. 29 in B major op. 106: a live concert recording in Warsaw in 1976 and a studio recording performed on a well preserved fortepiano from Beethoven's time in Vienna in 1980. The enormous differences in the interpretation of one and the same score give an idea of what significance uniqueness has in the rendition of a work. In the booklet to this exceptional comparison, Badura-Skoda portrays his experiences in grappling with this epoch-making work.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on November 26, 2012, 03:56:40 PM
I insist I don't believe in the existence of that third complete cycle; I mean a complete cycle different of the set released on Gramola or different of the Astrée set.

Its existence would be extremely weird.

The set released on Gramola was recorded between 1969-1970.

The Musical Heritage Society set was released -what a coincidence!- in 1970 to commemorate two hundred years of Beethoven's birth.

And the MHS was never a label known for facing this kind of large projects; on the contrary, it was a label well known for licensing a lot of recordings from Europe.

But I could be wrong...  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2012, 06:08:05 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 26, 2012, 03:56:40 PMThe Musical Heritage Society set was released -what a coincidence!- in 1970 to commemorate two hundred years of Beethoven's birth.



Paul Badura Skoda's website lists Intercord as the record label for the first cycle, and gives a recording year of 1955, which would make it one of the earliest cycles after Schnabel.  MHS is also mentioned, presumably in their capacity as a reissue house.  And Distler wrote that the Gramola set was unedited and unreleased until it came out on CD.  Since MHS was LP, it sure looks like there are three cycles.  Until someone can offer definitive proof for or against, all available evidence indicates that PBS is in the rarest of rare company in having recorded three complete sets.  I may have to hunt down the LPs myself.  Hopefully they will be easier to find than Robert Riefling's AWOL cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on November 26, 2012, 06:20:33 PM
The Badura-Skoda website gives this info for the MHS

Media:  Long-playing record (LP)
Contains: 12 LPs
Performers: -
Instrument: Steinway und Bösendorfer
Recorded / Published: 1955 / -
Label / Number: Intercord 707-09 Z / 1-6 und 7-12
The musical heritage society mc OR B-375/385

and this for the Gramola Bosendorfer cycle

Media:  Compact Disc (CD)
Contains: 9 CDs
Performers: -
Instrument: Bösendorfer Imperial
Recorded / Published: 1969-1970 / -
Label / Number: Gramola 98742/50

and (for completeness's sake) this for the Astree PI cycle

Media:  Compact Disc (CD)
Contains: 9 CDs
Performers: -
Instrument: Hammerflügel der Sammlung Badura-Skoda
Recorded / Published: 1978-1989 / -
Label / Number: Astrée E 8700 (NAÏVE)

The MHS cycle was originally issued by a label named Intercord, apparently. (I don't remember ever hearing the name before.)  At least some of it was recorded on a Steinway.  It's possible that Intercord/MHS set includes some of the same performances on the Gramola, and that Badura-Skoda re-recorded for Gramola only some of the cycle--but wouldn't Gramola have to indicate that some of the recordings in its cycle were licensed from Intercord (or vice versa)?  I don't see any way to reconcile the information Distler brings in the name of "American management" with the website. (ETA: misread what Distler said).   It is possible that some of the performances on the Gramola are the same as some of the ones in the Intercord/MHS set, but if some of the Intercord/MHS was recorded starting in 1955 on a Steinway, then it's not totally identical to the Gramala set.   And the website's listings for the Westminster recordings are too skimpy to say how those may have figured in the Intercord/MHS set.

(I wrote this while Todd was posting his remark.  I should point out that the dates for the Intercord/MHS set given on the website say it was begun in 1955, but don't give an ending date, except the one implied by the date of the MHS (re)issue.  We could theoretically have one sonata recorded in 1955 and 31 sonatas recorded in 1969-70.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2012, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 26, 2012, 06:20:33 PMThe MHS cycle was originally issued by a label named Intercord, apparently. (I don't remember ever hearing the name before.)



Intercord is a small German label; I have some late career Rudolf Firkusny Mozart concertos on the label.  It apparently didn't get underway until 1966, but that may just mean that Intercord was the European distributor for the first cycle, and MHS the US distributor, and some other person or entity produced the recordings.  The discography is also careful to state that the Gramola cycle is on an Imperial Grand whereas the earlier cycle simply states Bosendorfer.  Perhaps just a clerical oversight, perhaps not.  Based on Distler's comments in the review, and this discography, I'm inclined to think there are three cycles, unless, again, someone has concrete proof one way or the other.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 27, 2012, 09:56:03 AM
Look what just appeared on Naxos Music Library.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/SOCD174-75.jpg)

21, 22, 23, 30, 31, 32... truly jumping in at the deep end. NML somehow screwed up and put the final aria/fugue from Op 110 on the same track as the beginning of Op 111.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 27, 2012, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 27, 2012, 09:56:03 AM
Look what just appeared on Naxos Music Library.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/SOCD174-75.jpg)

21, 22, 23, 30, 31, 32... truly jumping in at the deep end. NML somehow screwed up and put the final aria/fugue from Op 110 on the same track as the beginning of Op 111.


That's an incomplete cycle as far as I can tell.  Ms Chemin recorded three volumes at the turn of the century and stopped.  Some discs are still available in France.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on November 29, 2012, 12:24:30 PM
Question time! I know Kempff's mono cycle is held in high regard in these parts, but how do people feel his stereo recordings compare?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 17, 2012, 08:07:15 AM
Todd alert: Jonathan Biss, volume 2, comes in January. Moonlight, Op 7, and Op 78.

Meanwhile, I'm so glad I got that Serkin box. I'm in love with what I've heard so far.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 18, 2012, 05:12:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 17, 2012, 08:07:15 AM
Todd alert: Jonathan Biss, volume 2, comes in January. Moonlight, Op 7, and Op 78.

Meanwhile, I'm so glad I got that Serkin box. I'm in love with what I've heard so far.

Then I suggest that you keep an eye out for the mono stuff, as it's at least a notch above the stereo recordings, IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 27, 2012, 08:32:15 AM
Thanks, George. A notch above this, is a must-hear. :)

Details of the last volume from Francois-Frederic Guy (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Zigzag/ZZT318) have arrived; it will be released in February 2013. Also in February: volume 2 of Yuri Martynov's Beethoven/Liszt symphonies project will contain Symphonies 1 and 7, on the same 1837 Erard piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on December 31, 2012, 12:46:22 PM
Quote from: david-jw on November 25, 2012, 04:34:37 AM
A  "hairs of the back of the neck" Waldstein imo found on thus budget set:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Solomon-Master-Pianist/dp/B00166QKJM/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1353850248&sr=1-1

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513%2Bo5TcQUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have this set. The Beethoven performances are tremendous. The Hammerklavier is great.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on December 31, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 29, 2012, 12:24:30 PM
Question time! I know Kempff's mono cycle is held in high regard in these parts, but how do people feel his stereo recordings compare?

I have the stereo cycle and parts of the mono cycle. I would say on the whole the mono is the one to go for as Kempff's technique is that bit more assured. The stereo remake is very fine, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on December 31, 2012, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 17, 2012, 08:07:15 AM
Todd alert: Jonathan Biss, volume 2, comes in January. Moonlight, Op 7, and Op 78.

Meanwhile, I'm so glad I got that Serkin box. I'm in love with what I've heard so far.

Yes, I have the Serkin box too. He was a great Beethoven player.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on December 31, 2012, 02:39:20 PM
Is it a portent that this thread has reached page 111?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Beale on January 02, 2013, 07:20:35 AM
Hello guys, back for another question. What are your best recommendations for op 110, no. 31 in A flat major?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 02, 2013, 08:38:28 AM
Quote from: Beale on January 02, 2013, 07:20:35 AM
Hello guys, back for another question. What are your best recommendations for op 110, no. 31 in A flat major?

The live Gulda from Montpellier in 1993. And Yvonne Lefebvre.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 02, 2013, 11:41:49 AM
Quote from: Beale on January 02, 2013, 07:20:35 AM
Hello guys, back for another question. What are your best recommendations for op 110, no. 31 in A flat major?

Rudolf Serkin, 1960, SONY. The Unreleased Studio Recordings 3CD set



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2013, 11:45:32 AM
Thanks for that, George.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 02, 2013, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 11:45:32 AM
Thanks for that, George.

My pleasure, karl.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 02, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: George on January 02, 2013, 11:41:49 AM
Rudolf Serkin, 1960, SONY. The Unreleased Studio Recordings 3CD set[/1]

This box includes Serkin 1960 and 1971:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wC-KbS5CL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I actually listened to the 1960 a few days ago and liked it very much. But I had divided attention (was writing), so now I want to hear it again.

For big emotional impact, I prefer Gilels/DG, but the most-played version in my collection, since it was released in 2011, is probably Penelope Crawford's. She's playing an 1830 piano, but she's such a great artist that the piano sound is an added feature instead of the main attraction.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 02, 2013, 11:56:34 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 02, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
I actually listened to the 1960 a few days ago and liked it very much. But I had divided attention (was writing), so now I want to hear it again.

And I'll want to know what you think.

QuoteFor big emotional impact, I prefer Gilels/DG...

His is one of my #2 picks. It's a tie between Annie Fischer (Hungaroton), Kempff(st) (DG), Gilels (DG) and Bernard Roberts (Nimbus)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 02, 2013, 06:00:07 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 02, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
This box includes Serkin 1960 and 1971:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wC-KbS5CL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I actually listened to the 1960 a few days ago and liked it very much. But I had divided attention (was writing), so now I want to hear it again.

For big emotional impact, I prefer Gilels/DG, but the most-played version in my collection, since it was released in 2011, is probably Penelope Crawford's. She's playing an 1830 piano, but she's such a great artist that the piano sound is an added feature instead of the main attraction.

In spite of my pretty good-sized piano collection, I only have one CD by Rudolf Serkin and probably do not have any of his recordings on LP either ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on January 03, 2013, 01:32:04 PM
Quote from: Beale on January 02, 2013, 07:20:35 AM
Hello guys, back for another question. What are your best recommendations for op 110, no. 31 in A flat major?

Serkin is good - a lifetime of experience.
Kovacevich also good.
Glenn Gould if you want something eccentric but illuminating.
Schnabel if yu don't mind dated sound.
The best recording for me is by Kempff - his early recoding from 1951 in mono is absolute magic. The later stereo version is also good but the earlier one is really special.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on January 04, 2013, 01:21:15 PM
I"ve got a bit of a soft spot for Myra Hess in this work. I also think that Richter's famous Leipzig recording is also rather special.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on January 04, 2013, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 02, 2013, 08:38:28 AM
The live Gulda from Montpellier in 1993. And Yvonne Lefebvre.

Hi Mandryka,
Re Lefebvre: Do you nean the recording on solstice?
Verena
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 04, 2013, 10:30:59 PM
Quote from: Verena on January 04, 2013, 01:50:42 PM
Hi Mandryka,
Re Lefebvre: Do you nean the recording on solstice?
Verena

I don't know. Is there more than one? The one I have is on a CD with Bach's Partita 6 and the last three Beethoven sonatas.

Has anyone heard her Hammerklavier? I didn't know it existed till just now.

Have you heard Ernst Levy's, Verena? He's hot. I also was very moved by Dino Ciani's performance.

Have you heard the Gulda, with the aeroplane?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 04, 2013, 10:33:29 PM
Quote from: Holden on January 04, 2013, 01:21:15 PM
I"ve got a bit of a soft spot for Myra Hess in this work. I also think that Richter's famous Leipzig recording is also rather special.

I prefer the late recording he made for Philips.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 04, 2013, 10:37:05 PM
Quote from: DavidA on January 03, 2013, 01:32:04 PM
Serkin is good - a lifetime of experience.
Kovacevich also good.
Glenn Gould if you want something eccentric but illuminating.
Schnabel if yu don't mind dated sound.
The best recording for me is by Kempff - his early recoding from 1951 in mono is absolute magic. The later stereo version is also good but the earlier one is really special.

I can well believe Kovacevich is excellent, it's a long time since I heard him play it. Which one are you listening to?

There's a live from Glen Gould from the Stockholm concert. I prefer it to the studio.

I would pick Edwin Fischer over Schnabel in this sonata. Fischer's really dynamic, it has to be one of his best things on record. And the sound is fine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on January 05, 2013, 02:52:29 AM
Quote from: Holden on January 04, 2013, 01:21:15 PM
I"ve got a bit of a soft spot for Myra Hess in this work. I also think that Richter's famous Leipzig recording is also rather special.

Was forgetting Richter. I have one of his live performances of the Sonata and he is always worth hearing in this music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on January 05, 2013, 04:31:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 04, 2013, 10:30:59 PM
I don't know. Is there more than one? The one I have is on a CD with Bach's Partita 6 and the last three Beethoven sonatas.

Has anyone heard her Hammerklavier? I didn't know it existed till just now.

Have you heard Ernst Levy's, Verena? He's hot. I also was very moved by Dino Ciani's performance.

Have you heard the Gulda, with the aeroplane?

There is a DVD called "The French Piano School", where she plays  op 110. I remember quite liking it, but it is ages ago I listened to the performance. I love the Gulda and Levy, but never heard Ciani. Have to check this out.
Verena
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Verena on January 05, 2013, 04:34:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 04, 2013, 10:33:29 PM
I prefer the late recording he made for Philips.

That's another excellent one, I think. In general, I find Richter (even) more successful in late Beethoven than in the early sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on January 05, 2013, 12:06:18 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/217/MI0003217495.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Just listened to this - very impressive playing indeed, especially for the era. I'll have to hear more of his Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on January 05, 2013, 12:15:19 PM
Quote from: Holden on January 05, 2013, 12:06:18 PM
Just listened to this - very impressive playing indeed, especially for the era. I'll have to hear more of his Beethoven.

I didn't know that Dan Castellaneta was also a concert pianist.

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 05, 2013, 01:23:44 PM
Doh!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
If this teaser clip is any indication (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-154zPXWF0), Angela Hewitt's next Beethoven volume will be a very strong brew!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on January 07, 2013, 01:16:00 AM
..very percussive.....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2013, 06:50:39 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
If this teaser clip is any indication (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-154zPXWF0), Angela Hewitt's next Beethoven volume will be a very strong brew!

Very interesting.

Has anyone heard the others. Are they bold like this?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on January 14, 2013, 07:06:42 PM
Mari Kodama....thoughts on her playing?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 17, 2013, 01:54:59 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 14, 2013, 07:06:42 PM
Mari Kodama....thoughts on her playing?



Dip Your Ears, No. 61 (Mari Kodama's Beethoven)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/06/dip-your-ears-no-61.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/06/dip-your-ears-no-61.html)

Not all are as successful as these mid-early Sonatas, but no clunkers and always seriously good understated, full sounding Beethoven. Every release of this very deliberately produced cycle is one I look forward not with gaga-must-have (which might in any case be disappointed, no matter who the pianist...) but with calm and patient keenness.

See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/best-recordings-of-2006.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/best-recordings-of-2006.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 06:00:00 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wJZ%2B1kg%2BL._SL500_AA300__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)


"Heroic Ideals," "Eternal Feminine - Youth," "Eternal Feminine - Mature" etc. These are her notes - a really nice, well-researched personal touch. She chose not to record two sonatas - 19 and 20, because they were pieces published against the composer's will that were training pieces for pupils. Is this the definitive set to own? God knows. Would this be really nice first set? Yeah, I think so. You will grow into some of the more traditional recordings. Lim's choice of a Yamaha grand piano, being characterized as sounding cold, that is a personal preference. I actually prefer the sound of this piano to some of the pianoforte sounds on other recordings. I think this sound, especially in louder phrases, has a bite to it. But I listen through some high end equipment that makes everything I listen to sound wonderful if the recording is anywhere in the ballpark. I would say if I were eye-balling a 10 band equalizer, this recording is a touch low on the upper mid-range. The hall where these were recorded has a very fast delay (eighth-note). To my ears, you get a close listening experience, and a very precise sound - rich, involved and one that never upstages or obscures the performances.

The first thing I noticed in Lim's playing is she has a keen ability to push that melody across, and do that in a way that is almost as hooky as a pop tune. And at 42 years old, I guess that is fine by me. I do that more often than I'd like to admit. Lim makes great use of dynamics, slight variations in tempo. Listen to the first movement of Sonata # 9. Her interpretation is subtlety dramatic, as if the piano is personally singing to you. The adagio of the Hammerklavier, this is not your uncle's Beethoven. Tempos are pretty fast, according to Beethoven's original metronome markings. The playing on the faster movements is quite aggressive, but to say that HJ Lim lacks interpretive powers or is too young to really have a right to offer the complete Beethoven sonata cycle is really unfair. What makes this set worth owning?

She is a delight to listen to and if you don't really care for the mellower, more reflective interpretations, especially in the later works, her attack comes across as fresh and electric, her sound glittering and polished, her musicianship--down to the quirky but interesting liner notes--thoroughly sophisticated. the second to mere pyrotechnics. Overall, I would consider this set, despite its many slow movements aren't nearly as searching as they need to be, and while this is easily imputable to her youth, that is not a fair assessment, I believe. Ms Lim has chosen to play these works at these speeds. But that means I don't like some of her interpretations. Her Op 111, one of the greatest artworks ever created, is not powerful enough in the first movement and she reduces the sublimity of superior to this in many ways.

Lim brings out some wonderful growling from the low end of her Yamaha that jarred me in a way I hadn't been in most other performances I've heard. I found she was pretty successful at the goal she set out for herself in the liner notes -- The audacity seen here from this debut recording is rare and worthwhile. Warmly recommended. If you can find it at the remarkable introductory download price -- a web search might help in that regard -- all the better. a lot of musical and intellectual rigor going on here. This does not bother me in the least. I enjoy processing music intellectually and derive great pleasure from music that thinks at least as much as it feels. If you don't, you may have a negative reaction to HJ Lim's playing at times, as some reviewers on other sites have. Regarding the speed, this is one of Lim's strengths and often faster movements are more satisfying. I didn't really find her tempos extreme or jarring as some others have. For example her opening movement of the "Waldstein", which forms the basis of her argument for brisk tempos, comes in at 9:57 -- identical to Artur Schnabel's from way back when. But Lim real highlight of the set, as far as I'm concerned -- she sets that vision out, including the more controversial points, like the tempos and the decision to omit Opus 49. You can agree or disagree with that vision, but I find it refreshing that an artist is willing to stand up and defend a contrarian view. Shades of Glenn Gould in that regard, and that's all to the good. The playing is great technically, but I can sympathize with those who have criticized it for a lack of emotional impact. This is not an overly Romanticized set of recordings by any means. The playing seems to confirm the sense of HJ Lim I drew from the liner notes -- there is of color in her playing. To me, the performances are deeply emotional and moving. Finally, a comment on the sound of these recordings. It is true that the piano here sounds a little thin and "plinky," not warm and beautiful (like, say, Goode's). These qualities are especially prominent when listening through open-air speakers. But the sound is thrillingly clear and vibrant, especially when listening through headphones or earbuds. It was easy for my ear to adjust.But in the end, daring or not, this project would have fallen on its face if the artistry and musicianship weren't there. On that level, HJ Lim has presented not only excellent performances, but a bold and unified vision. In her substantial liner notes -- which are a I feel compelled to say a few words in reply to critics here and elsewhere who have called these performances willful or bizarre or intemperate or unemotional. One critic has said that Lim is incapable of playing softly, another that she plays mechanically. I found these comments simply nonsense. Anyone who has listened to the great new recordings by Ronald Brautigam on a replica pianoforte (almost universally and correctly praised by the critics) will not find Lim's fast pace utterly new, though to hear it on a modern piano is thrilling. Many movements in this recording were slower than Brautigam's. As for her dynamics, I found, if anything, a wider range than in Brautigam's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on January 19, 2013, 10:10:49 AM
I just finished listening to the recently released complete set of Michael Korstick's Beethoven sonatas on Oehms, and enjoyed it very much. Complete command technically, with great rhythmic approach in the fast movements and searching explorations of the slow movements, except for a notable failure in the ridiculously drawn out adagio of the Hammerklavier.  Very clearly recorded, though the volume level needs to be kept a little lower than normal to avoid harshness in the fortissimos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 19, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
If this teaser clip is any indication (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-154zPXWF0), Angela Hewitt's next Beethoven volume will be a very strong brew!

Call this the career evolution.  When a baroque artist (conductor or instrumentalist) runs out of baroque works to record, they move into classical works.  Angela Hewitt recorded the Bach WTC twice and many other baroque keyboard works.  John Eliot Gardiner ran out of baroque works a long time ago.  Now Marc Minkowski is moving into the classical era.  I wonder if Alan Curtis will start his Beethoven Symphonies cycle soon?

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on January 20, 2013, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 19, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
Call this the career evolution.  When a baroque artist (conductor or instrumentalist) runs out of baroque works to record, they move into classical works.  Angela Hewitt recorded the Bach WTC twice and many other baroque keyboard works.  John Eliot Gardiner ran out of baroque works a long time ago.  Now Marc Minkowski is moving into the classical era.  I wonder if Alan Curtis will start his Beethoven Symphonies cycle soon?

;D

Not quite true as regards Hewitt.  She's recorded several CDs of music by composers who are definitely post classical:

Chopin: Complete Nocturnes and Impromptus
Ravel:  Complete Works for Solo Piano
Schumann: 2 CDs of solo piano works, and the works for piano and orchestra (her next to most recent release)
a CD worth of music by Chabrier
a CD worth of music by Messiaen
a CD worth of music by Debussy (her most recent release)

She's issued a few Beethoven CDs already, including participating in a complete traversal of the works for cello and piano.

Her Schumann is nothing to write home about,   but her Debussy is very good, and her Beethoven solo CDs are worth getting.  (Have not heard the works for cello and piano, nor the Chopin, Ravel, Chabrier, or Messiaen.)  Granted, she's recorded a number of CDs of pre-1800 composers (Rameau, Couperin, a CD devoted jointly to Handel and Haydn), but leave out the Bach and one might argue that French music of whatever era is a major focus of her playing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 20, 2013, 05:55:00 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 20, 2013, 05:27:26 PM
Not quite true as regards Hewitt.  She's recorded several CDs of music by composers who are definitely post classical:

Chopin: Complete Nocturnes and Impromptus
Ravel:  Complete Works for Solo Piano
Schumann: 2 CDs of solo piano works, and the works for piano and orchestra (her next to most recent release)
a CD worth of music by Chabrier
a CD worth of music by Messiaen
a CD worth of music by Debussy (her most recent release)

She's issued a few Beethoven CDs already, including participating in a complete traversal of the works for cello and piano.

Her Schumann is nothing to write home about,   but her Debussy is very good, and her Beethoven solo CDs are worth getting.  (Have not heard the works for cello and piano, nor the Chopin, Ravel, Chabrier, or Messiaen.)  Granted, she's recorded a number of CDs of pre-1800 composers (Rameau, Couperin, a CD devoted jointly to Handel and Haydn), but leave out the Bach and one might argue that French music of whatever era is a major focus of her playing.

While I have all the Bach keyboard works by Angela Hewitt, I also have her Chopin Nocturnes and her Beethoven Piano Sonatas on SACD.  I would not rank her Chopin Nocturnes that high among the many versions I already have.  Her recordings of Couperin works are kind of interesting because there are few piano versions of those works out there ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on January 20, 2013, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 20, 2013, 05:55:00 PM
I would not rank her Chopin Nocturnes that high among the many versions I already have. 

To be perfectly honest,  after hearing her Schumann, that's about what I would expect of her in Chopin, which is why I've never tried to purchase the recording. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 20, 2013, 10:06:47 PM
Even if it's wrong, i enjoyed seeing coopmv's comment, just because this move from Baroque and Renaissance to Classical and Romantic is a trend, among conductors if not keyboard people. Harnoncourt, Bruggen, Minkowski. Contrast someone like Leonhardt who seemed to dispise  all music after Mozart.  I once read a comment by Vartolo or Messori, I can't remember who, which was very bitchy about it, saying that these guys do it for just for the money.

Hewitt's always fun live.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 21, 2013, 07:07:34 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 20, 2013, 06:47:23 PM
To be perfectly honest,  after hearing her Schumann, that's about what I would expect of her in Chopin, which is why I've never tried to purchase the recording.

I think Angela Hewitt is still one of the best of her generation when it comes to Bach keyboard works and perhaps other baroque keyboard works.  OTOH, I do not feel she is in her element when she moves into Beethoven or Chopin.  While I like Helene Grimaud, I think her Bach is awful ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on January 21, 2013, 08:13:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 20, 2013, 10:06:47 PM
Even if it's wrong, i enjoyed seeing coopmv's comment, just because this move from Baroque and Renaissance to Classical and Romantic is a trend, among conductors if not keyboard people. Harnoncourt, Bruggen, Minkowski. Contrast someone like Leonhardt who seemed to dispise  all music after Mozart.  I once read a comment by Vartolo or Messori, I can't remember who, which was very bitchy about it, saying that these guys do it for just for the money.

Hewitt's always fun live.

You can probably add Ton Koopman to the list of Leonhardt, i.e. who has a disdain for moving beyond the baroque.  I think Harnoncourt is by far the most successful in transitioning from early/baroque music making to the classical period.  His Schubert Symphonies with the RCO are some of the best out there.  His Beethoven Symphonies are quite good as well ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on January 21, 2013, 09:39:18 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 21, 2013, 08:13:46 AM
You can probably add Ton Koopman to the list of Leonhardt, i.e. who has a disdain for moving beyond the baroque.

A disdain which pushed him to conduct and record quite a few discs of Mozart and Haydn.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2013, 10:48:24 AM
I am continuing my journey through...

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/backhaus_beethoven_decca8cd.jpg)

Recently I heard the Seventh, Eighth, and Ninth Sonatas for the first time ever.  Marvelous works, but nobody has been waiting for my approval.  The Seventh - in spirit - reminded me of the Seventh Symphony.

It has been an interesting personal phenomenon in the past decade: in my collection few CD's were of solo or chamber works: Schoenberg quartets, the Bartok Sixth Quartet, Scriabin piano sonatas, Louis Vierne's Organ Symphonies,and of course the Beethoven Opus 111

But now, perhaps because of the solo and chamber works offered here at GMG from Karl Henning and Luke Ottevanger and others, perhaps just because they are new to my aging ears, I find myself listening now to smaller works more often than before.

Thanks to a very generous GMG member, I am also working through the Shostakovich quartets!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 23, 2013, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on January 19, 2013, 10:10:49 AM
I just finished listening to the recently released complete set of Michael Korstick's Beethoven sonatas on Oehms, and enjoyed it very much. Complete command technically, with great rhythmic approach in the fast movements and searching explorations of the slow movements, except for a notable failure in the ridiculously drawn out adagio of the Hammerklavier.  Very clearly recorded, though the volume level needs to be kept a little lower than normal to avoid harshness in the fortissimos.

I also greatly enjoyed Korstick's set. One of the things I enjoyed about Korstick was the sense that, whatever he did with the music, right or wrong, he had it all under his fingers unlike many whose whose interpretive decisions are determined by their limitations.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on January 23, 2013, 08:46:17 PM
Quote from: Fred on January 23, 2013, 03:18:31 PM
I also greatly enjoyed Korstick's set. One of the things I enjoyed about Korstick was the sense that, whatever he did with the music, right or wrong, he had it all under his fingers unlike many whose whose interpretive decisions are determined by their limitations.

I agree. His "Hammerklavier" is one of the few that adopts Beethoven's metronome markings...except in the 28 minute Adagio! Somehow, he makes it work: time virtually stands still. He recently released the last three sonatas--oddly enough, they were recorded back in 1997. He said he was satisfied with them and saw no reason to re-record them. The sound is good...maybe a bit more metallic than on the "Hammerklavier" disc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 24, 2013, 07:32:46 PM
Was anybody in touch with Todd outside GMG? I sent him a PM a couple weeks ago, but his silence continues.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 24, 2013, 08:25:46 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 24, 2013, 07:32:46 PM
Was anybody in touch with Todd outside GMG? I sent him a PM a couple weeks ago, but his silence continues.

He's been away for extended periods of time before, IIRC. I don't see any cause for alarm.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 02, 2013, 05:08:25 AM
Looks like Claudio Records carries Sequeira Costa's LvB cycle except for volume 9.  I've got two volumes already, but I'm not sure the rest are worth fourteen pounds each. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 02, 2013, 06:35:02 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 02, 2013, 05:08:25 AM
Looks like Claudio Records carries Sequeira Costa's LvB cycle except for volume 9.  I've got two volumes already, but I'm not sure the rest are worth fourteen pounds each.

Berkshire Record Outlet has a complete cycle by Abdel Rahman El Bacha for $45. Knowing his Prokofiev discs, I'm sorely tempted.

Francois-Frederic Guy Volume 3 comes out next month, as does a new Angela Hewitt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-154zPXWF0) (clip).

I think I enjoyed the new Herbert Schuch album much more for the surprise of the Ullmann than for the Beethoven, where you're right - Schuch's excellence means that he can pull off anything, but the orchestra sounds a bit dead-weight-ish.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 02, 2013, 07:19:45 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2013, 06:35:02 AMKnowing his Prokofiev discs, I'm sorely tempted.


Knowing his Beethoven, I've hesitated to try anything else.  It's BAM Beethoven - Bland And Mechanical.



Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2013, 06:35:02 AMFrancois-Frederic Guy Volume 3 comes out next month


My copy should be here by the end of next week.  I decided to order from France.  Don't want to wait for a month.  I can wait a bit for Hewitt.  Maybe the spring.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 02, 2013, 07:50:55 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 02, 2013, 07:19:45 AM
Knowing his Beethoven, I've hesitated to try anything else.  It's BAM Beethoven - Bland And Mechanical.

Actually I've found El Bacha to be quite accomplished in both Prokofiev and Saint-Saëns (concertos). That might not spell transcendence in everything he touches but that's nothing new.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 06, 2013, 09:17:11 AM
Lena Jacobson plays op 26.

http://www.youtube.com/v/T_FTJIXavQc

http://www.youtube.com/v/BNOQUQEQQyk
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on March 06, 2013, 01:15:27 PM
I have just downloaded Kempff's 1950s set from Amazon for just 2-99GBP. Incredible bargain. Represents Kempff's best playing and the (mono) recording is good too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on March 07, 2013, 12:05:03 PM
Is it the DG edition?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on March 07, 2013, 07:52:57 PM
just heard the last sonatas with vladimir feltsman on a 'musical heritage society' album

i gotta say: what a thoroughly satisfying way he has with this music
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on March 07, 2013, 08:06:37 PM
Quote from: xochitl on March 07, 2013, 07:52:57 PM
just heard the last sonatas with vladimir feltsman on a 'musical heritage society' album

i gotta say: what a thoroughly satisfying way he has with this music

Agreed.   I just went on a little splurge and ordered up almost all his Beethoven, Chopin and Bach CDs--in fact, at the moment,  I've got his recording of the Chopin Nocturnes playing--the one you have I have as a Nimbus re-issue.   Performance wise, it's a golden mean.  His recording of the Hammerklavier is costing me a little trouble.  I've had two Amazon Marketplace sellers cancel after confessing that they don't actually have the CD to send to me--say it's lost in their inventory (is it possible that it was actually the same vendor under different names?  Possible.  The first vendor took a week to cancel, after a fretful email from me; the second cancelled for almost exactly the same reason, but within three days and without prompting.... perhaps he had learned from the first time.)   So tonight I ordered it again from a different Amazon MP vendor.  Fingers crossed that third time will the charm....
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4172FPJWT7L.jpg)
I ordered a new copy, but apparently you can get a used copy for under $5
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 08, 2013, 06:27:51 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 07, 2013, 08:06:37 PMFingers crossed that third time will the charm....
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4172FPJWT7L.jpg)



I just picked that disc up a few weeks ago but have not had a chance to listen.  His disc of the last three sonatas is outstanding, so I have high hopes for this one.  I'm planning on giving it a spin this weekend.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 08, 2013, 06:59:11 AM
You know, it's never too soon to start thinking about the future.  In 2020, it will be 250 years since the Big Man's birth, and that will mean recordings and reissues and boxes galore.  And while it's still a solid seven years out, I have to think that some A&R folks are out there plotting.  That would mean new sonata cycles.  Who among contemporary pianists would you most like to hear record a complete cycle for the big occasion?  A few I'd like to hear, in no particular order, save Endres:

Michael Endres - could he be the first pianist to be equally good in Mozart, Schubert, and Beethoven?
Paavali Jumppanen - in the can; I believe it will be a DG issue, but I could be wrong
Jonathan Biss - already underway, of course
Jean Efflam Bavouzet - same
Leif Ove Andsnes – seems only natural at this point in his career
Herbert Schuch – please, please, please
Andrea Lucchesini - second cycle; I read that he was interested in recording it on fortepiano
Robert Silverman - second cycle; in the can; don't know when it will be released
Krystian Zimerman - this has a zero percent probability of occurring, methinks, but imagine the possibilities
Zoltan Kocsis – same as with Zimerman
Maurizio Pollini – will he finish the cycle?
David Greilsammer – see Herbert Schuch
Arcadi Volodos – won't happen, and I'm not completely sure it should, but I would love to hear him in 28 and 106
Marc Andre Hamelin – I doubt this will happen, but who knows?  The one caveat is that it should be a live set.  I heard him play in person last weekend, and he is more vital live.
Penelope Crawford – see Herbert Schuch
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on March 08, 2013, 07:34:51 AM
I thought Andsnes has ruled out doing a sonata cycle?

What about Staier doing a fortepiano cycle?

Nelson Friere would doubtless be a good one, but his interests seem to lie elsewhere
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 08, 2013, 08:36:47 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 08, 2013, 06:59:11 AM
Michael Endres - could he be the first pianist to be equally good in Mozart, Schubert, and Beethoven?
Off-topic, but have you heard Endres' Ravel and Schumann? I've dipped into the Schumann recently, but not into any of my favorite works just yet.

Quote from: Todd on March 08, 2013, 06:59:11 AM
Herbert Schuch – please, please, please
Andrea Lucchesini - second cycle; I read that he was interested in recording it on fortepiano
Penelope Crawford – see Herbert Schuch
Gaaah pleeeaaasseee

I believe Yevgeny Sudbin will be releasing a single, stand-alone disc of Beethoven sonatas within the next year or so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 08, 2013, 10:06:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on March 08, 2013, 08:36:47 AMOff-topic, but have you heard Endres' Ravel and Schumann? I've dipped into the Schumann recently, but not into any of my favorite works just yet.



Yes.  The Schumann has grown on me with repeated listens, and the Album fur Jugend is the relatively best thing he did in this rep, though all of it is very good.  His Ravel is extremely well played, but variable in terms of quality, ranging from average-ish to well done.  His Weber is pretty freakin' sweet for what it is (ie, Weber).  Seems like he is a Germanic rep guy, though his Gershwin and Bax are surprisingly good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on March 08, 2013, 08:29:28 PM
Berezovsky playing 106 and 111.  I would spring some cash for that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on March 08, 2013, 10:51:51 PM
Quote from: Holden on March 07, 2013, 12:05:03 PM
Is it the DG edition?

Yes, the earlier mono edition. Sound really good. Playing wonderful!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2013, 11:39:29 PM
I thought the transfer on this series was  better than the one on DG

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qSeNiHQfL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2013, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 08, 2013, 06:59:11 AM
You know, it's never too soon to start thinking about the future.  In 2020, it will be 250 years since the Big Man's birth, and that will mean recordings and reissues and boxes galore.  And while it's still a solid seven years out, I have to think that some A&R folks are out there plotting.  That would mean new sonata cycles.  Who among contemporary pianists would you most like to hear record a complete cycle for the big occasion?  A few I'd like to hear, in no particular order, save Endres:

Michael Endres - could he be the first pianist to be equally good in Mozart, Schubert, and Beethoven?
Paavali Jumppanen - in the can; I believe it will be a DG issue, but I could be wrong
Jonathan Biss - already underway, of course
Jean Efflam Bavouzet - same
Leif Ove Andsnes – seems only natural at this point in his career
Herbert Schuch – please, please, please
Andrea Lucchesini - second cycle; I read that he was interested in recording it on fortepiano
Robert Silverman - second cycle; in the can; don't know when it will be released
Krystian Zimerman - this has a zero percent probability of occurring, methinks, but imagine the possibilities
Zoltan Kocsis – same as with Zimerman
Maurizio Pollini – will he finish the cycle?
David Greilsammer – see Herbert Schuch
Arcadi Volodos – won't happen, and I'm not completely sure it should, but I would love to hear him in 28 and 106
Marc Andre Hamelin – I doubt this will happen, but who knows?  The one caveat is that it should be a live set.  I heard him play in person last weekend, and he is more vital live.
Penelope Crawford – see Herbert Schuch

You're obviously not so keen on Paul Komen. Anyway he's the one I'd like to see more of most, along with Sokolov, whose Hammerklavier I'm going to hear on March 22 in Lyon. Oh, Beghin too, whose op 111 is the most interesting I've heard in a long time And there's Andersewski, whose promise of magnificent Beethoven after the Diabellies and op 110 seems to have been forgotten. And Pletnev. Has he given up solo piano playing for a while? And Pogorelich, whose Beethoven in Athens in 2008 was much much more interesting than the sonatas he recorded for DG, I hope he gets his head together to record some of it.

Maybe most of all I'd like to see a cycle from Elisabeth Leonskaja. Her series of recitals in London a couple of years ago were unforgettable.

I thought  Schuch's op 111 was quite nice, but I'm surprised to see such strong enthusiasm. I'll listen again, maybe I missed something.

I have some live Kocsis Beethoven recordings which are extraordinary, much more impressive than his studio Beethoven on Philips.

I'm not sure what to say about Pollini, I don't know whether I want more or whether I've had enough. He's so challenging, in op 2 for example. But maybe being challenged like that is a good thing.

It's a shame that Elisso Virssaladze doesn't address Beethoven sonatas some more.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on March 10, 2013, 09:22:50 AM
Out in the wild, in the UK, tomorrow.

[asin]B00B2Z1CPY[/asin]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on March 10, 2013, 01:47:32 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 10, 2013, 09:22:50 AM
Out in the wild, in the UK, tomorrow.

[asin]B00B2Z1CPY[/asin]

Load up on those CD's you have always wanted to have before returning home.   LOL ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2013, 11:14:46 AM
The Koroliov above is on spotify, I'll listen to it soon. I feel that he's very often disappointing though.

Here's Sokolov playing the Hammerklavier in Paris last year. For me it's one of the most convincing I know on record, same league as  Richter-Haaser, Gilels live, Kempff and Yudina; more satisfying on the whole than  Backhaus and Pollini live and Solomon:

http://www.youtube.com/v/NYUn6TRntFc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NJ Joe on March 13, 2013, 05:16:45 PM
I have not yet had a chance to peruse this thread, but I am currently immersing myself in the Gulda/Eloquence set, starting at the beginning and working in order. I'm currently up to No. 7, listening to each work 2-3-4 times.

For the first time, after several tries over the years with various performances, these pieces are being unlocked for me. It's an experience that is beyond words.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 13, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: NJ Joe on March 13, 2013, 05:16:45 PMFor the first time, after several tries over the years with various performances, these pieces are being unlocked for me. It's an experience that is beyond words.



Gulda's Amadeo cycle (reissued by Decca - I've got the same incarnation as you) is indeed one of the titanic complete cycles.  Glad it opened up the works for you.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 13, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 13, 2013, 05:23:53 PM


Gulda's Amadeo cycle (reissued by Decca - I've got the same incarnation as you) is indeed one of the titanic complete cycles.  Glad it opened up the works for you.

It's a classic set for sure!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 13, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
Is Gulda (amadeo) better than Gulda live on Orfeo?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 13, 2013, 11:39:04 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
Is Gulda (amadeo) better than Gulda live on Orfeo?

IMO, yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on March 14, 2013, 01:32:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 12, 2013, 11:14:46 AM
The Koroliov above is on spotify, I'll listen to it soon. I feel that he's very often disappointing though.

Here's Sokolov playing the Hammerklavier in Paris last year. For me it's one of the most convincing I know on record, same league as  Richter-Haaser, Gilels live, Kempff and Yudina; more satisfying on the whole than  Backhaus and Pollini live and Solomon:

http://www.youtube.com/v/NYUn6TRntFc

I have another Sokolov Hammerklavier that I rate very highly. It's from 1975 and the slow movement is just so superbly played, but then again so is the rest of the sonata. It is my favourite version. Hasanyone else heard it and can compare it to this 2012 rendition?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 14, 2013, 05:37:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2013, 09:51:40 PMIs Gulda (amadeo) better than Gulda live on Orfeo?


Yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Octave on March 14, 2013, 06:01:37 AM
Quote from: NJ Joe on March 13, 2013, 05:16:45 PM
I have not yet had a chance to peruse this thread, but I am currently immersing myself in the Gulda/Eloquence set, starting at the beginning and working in order. I'm currently up to No. 7, listening to each work 2-3-4 times.

For the first time, after several tries over the years with various performances, these pieces are being unlocked for me. It's an experience that is beyond words.

I am 100% for that Gulda set, Joe; it totally knocked me out when I got it not very long ago.  FYI maybe you would dig Gulda's Mozart sonatas as well and maybe for similar reasons, if your response is like mine; I just got the COMPLETE MOZART TAPES set (the one that collected the smaller Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 sets), and even though the recorded sound is iffy, his playing is marvelous.  I am glad I have alternatives for these pieces, but I must say that Gulda ignites them.  Sorry for the off-topic digression, everyone.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on March 14, 2013, 06:28:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
Is Gulda (amadeo) better than Gulda live on Orfeo?

Yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 14, 2013, 08:12:03 AM
Quote from: Holden on March 14, 2013, 01:32:13 AM
I have another Sokolov Hammerklavier that I rate very highly. It's from 1975 and the slow movement is just so superbly played, but then again so is the rest of the sonata. It is my favourite version. Hasanyone else heard it and can compare it to this 2012 rendition?

But why din't you just listen to the 2012 yourself?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 14, 2013, 08:13:11 AM
Quote from: Wanderer, Todd and George
Yes.

Well, that's saved me a few quid.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NJ Joe on March 14, 2013, 05:58:54 PM
Quote from: Octave on March 14, 2013, 06:01:37 AM
I am 100% for that Gulda set, Joe; it totally knocked me out when I got it not very long ago.  FYI maybe you would dig Gulda's Mozart sonatas as well and maybe for similar reasons, if your response is like mine; I just got the COMPLETE MOZART TAPES set (the one that collected the smaller Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 sets), and even though the recorded sound is iffy, his playing is marvelous.  I am glad I have alternatives for these pieces, but I must say that Gulda ignites them.  Sorry for the off-topic digression, everyone.

I appreciate your comments, as I've been reading up on Gulda and learning that he was thought highly of as a Mozart interpreter. I most definitely plan on exploring his Mozart, as well as his WTC Book II (I have Book I and love it).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 28, 2013, 06:44:43 AM
Is this the beginning of a new cycle? (http://www.msrcd.com/catalog/cd/MS1465)

(http://www.msrcd.com/cdcovers/cd409.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 28, 2013, 07:22:38 AM
Quote from: Brian on March 28, 2013, 06:44:43 AMIs this the beginning of a new cycle? (http://www.msrcd.com/catalog/cd/MS1465)



Sure looks that way.  Now I'm left wondering, should I buy?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 28, 2013, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 28, 2013, 07:22:38 AM


Sure looks that way.  Now I'm left wondering, should I buy?

With a name like James Brawn, how can you go wrong?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 28, 2013, 07:52:38 AM
Quote from: George on March 28, 2013, 07:45:00 AMWith a name like James Brawn, how can you go wrong?



What if his playing is characterized by delicate legato?  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)  No, I know I will buy.  Do I buy disc by disc, or wait a few years and buy all at once?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 28, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 28, 2013, 07:52:38 AM


What if his playing is characterized by delicate legato?  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)  No, I know I will buy.  Do I buy disc by disc, or wait a few years and buy all at once?

I say wait.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 28, 2013, 11:39:20 AM
Quote from: George on March 28, 2013, 10:22:28 AMI say wait.



I'm inclined to agree, unless I start reading that his cycle is The Bomb.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 28, 2013, 11:49:34 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 28, 2013, 11:39:20 AM
I'm inclined to agree, unless I start reading that his cycle is The Bomb.

You can at least wait long enough to find out how long a delay there will be between issues, I s'pose.

MusicWeb offered the chance to review Yundi (Li)'s new 8/14/23, but I listened to clips and it sounded like a snooze. I don't like having to write reviews when the words that come to mind are "average, plain, same."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 28, 2013, 12:58:58 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 28, 2013, 11:49:34 AMYou can at least wait long enough to find out how long a delay there will be between issues, I s'pose.



I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the whole thing is slated to be done in about 2020.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 28, 2013, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 28, 2013, 11:49:34 AM
... when the words that come to mind are "average, plain, same."

That's an adequate review of it, right there.  ;)

Add "perfectly nice" to the mix, that wonderfully cliched (sometimes very useful) phrase of damnation with faint praise... because it's that, too. Listened to it a few times, then twice more out of courtesy, then it went onto the thanksbutnothanks pile.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on March 28, 2013, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 28, 2013, 03:45:16 PM
That's an adequate review of it, right there.  ;)

Add "perfectly nice" to the mix, that wonderfully cliched (sometimes very useful) phrase of damnation with faint praise... because it's that, too. Listened to it a few times, then twice more out of courtesy, then it went onto the thanksbutnothanks pile.

I have both the Yundi CD and Jonathan Biss's second volume en route to me from Arkivmusic; I expect a contrast.  But even as I ordered it, I expected Yundi's performance to fit into the "perfectly nice" category (or what I often think of as "a safe choice to suggest to someone who has had no real exposure to [composer/music genre/specific genre by a specific composer] ) .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 28, 2013, 07:31:46 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 28, 2013, 03:45:16 PM
That's an adequate review of it, right there.  ;)

Add "perfectly nice" to the mix, that wonderfully cliched (sometimes very useful) phrase of damnation with faint praise... because it's that, too. Listened to it a few times, then twice more out of courtesy, then it went onto the thanksbutnothanks pile.

Nice is not a word I ever want to see in a Beethoven review. I'd run for the hills.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on March 31, 2013, 01:36:52 AM
BEen listening to Byron Janis (op21, 17', 109) in the new box set.  What a stunning pianist he was in prime.  Terrible that he didn't record more beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on March 31, 2013, 06:12:48 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 28, 2013, 07:21:44 PM
I have both the Yundi CD and Jonathan Biss's second volume en route to me from Arkivmusic; I expect a contrast.  But even as I ordered it, I expected Yundi's performance to fit into the "perfectly nice" category (or what I often think of as "a safe choice to suggest to someone who has had no real exposure to [composer/music genre/specific genre by a specific composer] ) .

It's a great practical lesson about how to be condescending in music.  ;)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 31, 2013, 06:52:26 AM
Quote from: Fred on March 31, 2013, 01:36:52 AM
BEen listening to Byron Janis (op21, 17', 109) in the new box set.  What a stunning pianist he was in prime.  Terrible that he didn't record more beethoven.

I agree.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 31, 2013, 07:00:31 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on March 31, 2013, 04:58:55 AM
Jonathan Biss has so far impressed me the most of all the newer cycles in progress; his playing of Beethoven is almost perfect for my taste.

Have you read his book, Beethoven's Shadow?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 01, 2013, 09:14:04 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on March 31, 2013, 07:59:37 AM
No, I haven't.  What is it like?

Oh . . . I was hoping you'd tell me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 01, 2013, 09:34:55 AM
It's a stretch to call it a book, as it's a Kindle Single that's only 56 pages long.
Beethoven's Shadow (http://www.amazon.com/Beethovens-Shadow-Kindle-Single-ebook/dp/B006MHF95G/ref=pd_sim_kstore_1)
A Pianist Under the Influence (http://www.amazon.com/Pianist-Influence-Kindle-Single-ebook/dp/B009IPQKLQ/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1364837594&sr=8-6&keywords=jonathan+biss) (his Single about Schumann)

At $1.99 each, hardly a risky investment if you have a Kindle or another device that can read Kindle files.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NJ Joe on April 01, 2013, 03:05:35 PM
In everyone's life, at some time, our inner fire goes out. It is then burst into flame by an encounter with another human being Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. We should all be thankful for those people Sonatas who rekindle the inner spirit. -Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate (1875-1965)

This pretty much sums it up for me since the beginning of March, when I encountered Gulda's set.  Now working my way through it for the second time.  I can barely listen to anything else!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on April 06, 2013, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: NJ Joe on April 01, 2013, 03:05:35 PM
In everyone's life, at some time, our inner fire goes out. It is then burst into flame by an encounter with another human being Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. We should all be thankful for those people Sonatas who rekindle the inner spirit. -Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate (1875-1965)

This pretty much sums it up for me since the beginning of March, when I encountered Gulda's set.  Now working my way through it for the second time.  I can barely listen to anything else!

I zipped through Gulda's set probably a bit too fast.  I need to find time for a second listen ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on April 06, 2013, 12:35:52 PM
I just ordered the Maria Grinberg set of Beethoven sonatas, recently reissued on Melodiya.  What I heard of them on youtube sound interesting (as does her Chopin). I don't know much about her, except Wikipedia notes she had a good sense of humor (quite remarkable considering Stalin executed both her husband and father...) I believe she may be the only Soviet pianist to record all the sonatas (unless Ashkenazy is considered a Soviet).....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on April 06, 2013, 12:44:02 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on April 06, 2013, 12:35:52 PM
I just ordered the Maria Grinberg set of Beethoven sonatas, recently reissued on Melodiya.  What I heard of them on youtube sound interesting (as does her Chopin). I don't know much about her, except Wikipedia notes she had a good sense of humor (quite remarkable considering Stalin executed both her husband and father...) I believe she may be the only Soviet pianist to record all the sonatas (unless Ashkenazy is considered a Soviet).....

She was a real gutsy lady as she stood up against Uncle Joe ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on April 06, 2013, 12:52:45 PM
yeah, she and Maria Yudina must have been something else. Too bad they never had a chance to put a bullet in his brain....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on April 06, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on April 06, 2013, 12:35:52 PM
I just ordered the Maria Grinberg set of Beethoven sonatas, recently reissued on Melodiya.  What I heard of them on youtube sound interesting (as does her Chopin). I don't know much about her, except Wikipedia notes she had a good sense of humor (quite remarkable considering Stalin executed both her husband and father...) I believe she may be the only Soviet pianist to record all the sonatas (unless Ashkenazy is considered a Soviet).....

Is the set mono?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on April 06, 2013, 04:00:15 PM
No, stereo. Gramophone, April issue, replay section)  described the sound as good, with a few obvious edits.  I assume it was recorded in the 60's. The sound from  youtube clips (which has most of the sonatas or at least part of them available) seems fine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on April 06, 2013, 05:00:28 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 06, 2013, 12:24:11 PM
I zipped through Gulda's set probably a bit too fast.  I need to find time for a second listen ...

One will always get through Gulda´s set too fast.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on April 07, 2013, 10:25:57 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 06, 2013, 05:00:28 PM
One will always get through Gulda´s set too fast.  ;)

But Gulda was not exactly a speed demon ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 07, 2013, 11:03:25 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 07, 2013, 10:25:57 AM
But Gulda was not exactly a speed demon ...

I think his Diabelli Variations are the fastest I've heard == maybe some take less time, but I bet they take fewer repeats (like Helene  Lebebvre) I played Gulda's record recently.

Does anyone know how many times he recorded the Diabellies? Is the one that was released with the sonatas on Orfeo the same as the one on Harmonia Mundi?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Coopmv on April 07, 2013, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on April 07, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
I listened to Alice Sara Ott's Beethoven Sonata disc this morning and was not much impressed.  At times it sounded as if she were treading water.

I don't know.  It seems like record companies these days just want to record some young pretty face and hope the CD will sell ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 07, 2013, 12:00:03 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 07, 2013, 10:25:57 AM
But Gulda was not exactly a speed demon ...
I think he means that Gulda is so good you can't stop listening. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on April 07, 2013, 10:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 07, 2013, 11:03:25 AM
I think his Diabelli Variations are the fastest I've heard == maybe some take less time, but I bet they take fewer repeats (like Helene  Lebebvre) I played Gulda's record recently.

Does anyone know how many times he recorded the Diabellies? Is the one that was released with the sonatas on Orfeo the same as the one on Harmonia Mundi?
gulda's was the first diabelli vars i ever heard and still cant really stand any others.  too slow  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2013, 02:09:02 AM
Quote from: xochitl on April 07, 2013, 10:12:35 PM
gulda's was the first diabelli vars i ever heard and still cant really stand any others.  too slow  ;D

I enjoyed Gulda's very much. From memory Backhaus is fast too and is also good.

It turns out Gulda recorded it twice, 1970 for Harmonia Mundi and in 1957, which is the one on Orfeo. Looks like I'm going to have to get my hands on that Orfeo set after all, just for the Diabellies.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Octave on April 08, 2013, 02:47:22 AM
Oh no...am I going to have to get that whole Orfeo cycle to hear Gulda's early DIABELLIES?  Not saying I don't relish the prospect, but...this is madness.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2013, 03:31:40 AM
Somebody who has the set may care to post comparing and contrasting the 1957 and the 1970.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidRoss on April 08, 2013, 07:03:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 08, 2013, 03:31:40 AM
Somebody who has the set may care to post comparing and contrasting the 1957 and the 1970.
See http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/1016-beethoven-piano-sonata-cycle.html , post #1 & #4.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2013, 07:56:29 AM
Quote from: Octave on April 08, 2013, 02:47:22 AM
Oh no...am I going to have to get that whole Orfeo cycle to hear Gulda's early DIABELLIES?  Not saying I don't relish the prospect, but...this is madness.

Be aware that the Decca Eloquence box (Gulda spielt Beethoven), which is how I have the Orfeo cycle,  does not contain the Diabellis.

Of course, the Orfeo cycle is well worth getting even without the Diabellis.


Edited in light of Todd's response in the next post.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 08, 2013, 08:03:14 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 08, 2013, 07:56:29 AMBe aware that the Decca Eloquence box (Gulda spielt Beethoven), which is how I have the Orfeo cycle,  does not contain the Diabellis.



The Decca cycle and the Orfeo cycle are not the same thing.  The Orfeo cycle was not issued in any form until just a few years ago by Orfeo.  Gulda spielt Beethoven is the Amadeo cycle. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2013, 08:10:35 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 08, 2013, 08:03:14 AM


The Decca cycle and the Orfeo cycle are not the same thing.  The Orfeo cycle was not issued in any form until just a few years ago by Orfeo.  Gulda spielt Beethoven is the Amadeo cycle.

Well, I suppose that would explain why my set doesn't have the Diabellis.

Post edited to reflect the correction.  This is what happens when I skip my cup of coffee in the morning.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2013, 08:16:09 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 08, 2013, 07:03:28 AM
See http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/1016-beethoven-piano-sonata-cycle.html , post #1 & #4.

Thanks Todd. i'd seen those before. i had meant the Diabelli Variations specifically though. I was curious pabout his earlier recording of op120.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2013, 09:12:36 AM
(Cross posted from the main Listening thread.  Thank goodness I have Biss's volume 2 to look forward to for tomorrow)

Yundi (Li) playing Beethoven Sonatas (Pathetique, Moonlight, Appassionata)

First two sonatas, at least, are nice,  mellow.  Pretty.  Perfect  music for the spa to play while you're getting a massage, but not much more.   There's not even an excess of romantic overplaying to make it interesting.

Hold on--this is the first movement of the Appassionata, and even that's given a (relatively) mellow, relaxed reading.

I didn't have high expectations for this one, which is a good thing because what expectations I had are not being met.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 09, 2013, 05:37:51 AM
A couple items of note from Japan.


First, eight discs of Richter playing LvB.  Incomplete, but convenient.

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/53/7/4/337.jpg)


Second, Paul Badura Skoda's period instrument cycle.  It's an XRCD issue, for those interested in such things.  Alas, it's ¥28,000, which even with the yen plummeting as of late leaves the set on the pricey side.  Still, it's intriguing . . .

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/40/8/0/078.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on April 09, 2013, 11:56:16 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 09, 2013, 05:37:51 AM
Second, Paul Badura Skoda's period instrument cycle.  It's an XRCD issue, for those interested in such things.  Alas, it's ¥28,000, which even with the yen plummeting as of late leaves the set on the pricey side.  Still, it's intriguing . . .

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/40/8/0/078.jpg)

I'm so surprised that it is out there and would love to get it, but €218 excl. p&p in rather pricey indeed... :(

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on April 10, 2013, 10:33:13 PM
just listened to the middle sonatas with Goode and for some reason it really bored me.  it's really strange cos this used to be one of my reference cycles.  i think it may be Brautigam's fault
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 08, 2013, 07:32:24 PM
Have just been listening to Jan Jiracek von Arnim's live recording of 111 (on Telos) and it really, really bowled me over.  His technique made me think of Korstick, but he sounded more engaged.  Extraordinary how much talent there is out there we (or at least 1) never hear about.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on May 09, 2013, 12:32:43 PM
If you want a real jolt of adrenaline, give a listen to Maria Grinberg's complete set set on Melodyia. So far in my listening, I rate them right up their with Annie Fischer---very similar in approach. A wonderful pianist, very little known and appreciated.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on May 09, 2013, 01:08:17 PM
I was just listening to some of the later sonatas (Op. 90, 101, 106) from my Wilhelm Backhaus set on Decca.

Quote from: Oldnslow on May 09, 2013, 12:32:43 PM
If you want a real jolt of adrenaline, give a listen to Maria Grinberg's complete set set on Melodyia. So far in my listening, I rate them right up their with Annie Fischer---very similar in approach. A wonderful pianist, very little known and appreciated.

I would be interested in these: it is hard to imagine anything more energetic than the Backhaus set, but I am willing to be convinced!  Oldnslow: Do you know the Backhaus performances?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 09, 2013, 01:18:33 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 09, 2013, 01:08:17 PMI would be interested in these: it is hard to imagine anything more energetic than the Backhaus set, but I am willing to be convinced!



I assume you refer to the stereo set, in which case the mono set is perhaps slightly more energetic.  More energetic non-Backhaus sets for me would be Gulda (Amadeo and Orfeo), Ciani, Annie Fischer, Brautigam, Gieseking, Lipkin, Kikuchi (at least until the late sonatas) and, alas, Lim.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on May 09, 2013, 02:21:55 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 09, 2013, 01:18:33 PM


I assume you refer to the stereo set, in which case the mono set is perhaps slightly more energetic.  More energetic non-Backhaus sets for me would be Gulda (Amadeo and Orfeo), Ciani, Annie Fischer, Brautigam, Gieseking, Lipkin, Kikuchi (at least until the late sonatas) and, alas, Lim.

Okay, Todd many thanks for the recommendations!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 09, 2013, 08:57:02 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 09, 2013, 02:21:55 PM
Okay, Todd many thanks for the recommendations!

I second the Gulda and Annie Fischer recommendations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 26, 2013, 08:57:05 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0003/541/MI0003541736.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)


The last volume in Christian Leotta's cycle is scheduled for release next month.  An uneven and not especially strong cycle so far, but I'll be buying the last twofer, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on May 26, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 09, 2013, 01:18:33 PM
I assume you refer to the stereo set, in which case the mono set is perhaps slightly more energetic.  More energetic non-Backhaus sets for me would be [...] and, alas, Lim.

I was attracted by this aspect of her performances, but I'm aware of the ferocious criticism about her cycle. So I took  a totally unorthodox decision for me: I bought her set on iTunes for $15. It's available for USA-residents for $8 on Amazon. A digital booklet is included... Just in case. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 18, 2013, 09:38:48 AM

Packaging Question:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5122trx4gfL._SY450_.jpg)

If I recall correctly, this version of the 70s set is in a thin-to-medium thick paper slip case (not really a box) and then two (?) multi-CD jewel cases inside?

Nothing fancy like the 80s set, right? Or is the booklet fantastic? (Basically: Any reason at all to prefer this packaging over the international re-packaging with the Haitink Concertos?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2013, 10:11:02 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 18, 2013, 09:38:48 AM
Packaging Question:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5122trx4gfL._SY450_.jpg)

If I recall correctly, this version of the 70s set is in a thin-to-medium thick paper slip case (not really a box) and then two (?) multi-CD jewel cases inside?



My set has three fat cases and a reasonably nice set of notes in a separate booklet.  I see no reason to prefer it to any other reissue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 18, 2013, 10:25:52 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2013, 10:11:02 AM


My set has three fat cases and a reasonably nice set of notes in a separate booklet.  I see no reason to prefer it to any other reissue.

Awesome. Many thanks for the quick turnaround!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jay F on June 18, 2013, 11:54:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 18, 2013, 10:25:52 AM
Awesome. Many thanks for the quick turnaround!

The new, skinny box set, with recordings made 1971-1978, looks like this:

[asin]B0043UOQ26[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 18, 2013, 12:10:31 PM
ALERT ALERT

Steven Masi is starting a new cycle, self-released on CD Baby. Sound samples available for every track.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevenmasi

Masi's website
http://www.stevenmasi.com/

I've never heard of Masi, but I'm probably gonna end up with MusicWeb's review copy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 18, 2013, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: Jay F on June 18, 2013, 11:54:48 AM
The new, skinny box set, with recordings made 1971-1978, looks like this:

And then there is the European cheapo AMSI version (with a different set of PCs), of course:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517dRCurYeL._SY450_.jpg)

...I'm not unaware... but the finer details of the earlier packaging escaped me.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2013, 01:03:52 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 18, 2013, 12:10:31 PMSteven Masi is starting a new cycle, self-released on CD Baby. Sound samples available for every track.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevenmasi


Noted.


Quote from: jlaurson on June 18, 2013, 12:13:26 PM(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517dRCurYeL._SY450_.jpg)


That's possibly the best combo to have from Brendel.  I've got both sets of recordings, though in the old, ugly, fat box sets. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 18, 2013, 07:06:07 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2013, 01:03:52 PM

Noted.



That's possibly the best combo to have from Brendel.  I've got both sets of recordings, though in the old, ugly, fat box sets.

The penalty of being an early adopter.....

Another question, more subjective this time:
I've got the 80s cycle, and some of the Vox cycle (some sonatas and a box from Brilliant that contains the variations, bagatelles, etc.), but no recording of Brendel in the concertos

So really two questions:
Would you say it would be worth getting the seventies set?
And are any of Brendel's concerto cycles worth getting?  I have more than a few PC cycles, but none of them by Brendel.

For context of the sonatas, I've got Backhaus(stereo), Gulda (Amadeo, I think), Schiff, Lewis, Kempff, besides Brendel III, most of Gould's recordings, and all that Pollini has gotten around to recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2013, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 18, 2013, 07:06:07 PMWould you say it would be worth getting the seventies set?


I wouldn't say it is essential, but overall I find the 70s sonata cycle to be the best of his three, and less quirky, though a bit colder, than the third set.  I'm slowly working my way through it again now, and while some sonatas just miss for me, when he is on, like Op 22 for instance, he can be really on.  Op 28 was also a bit better than I recall. 



Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 18, 2013, 07:06:07 PMAnd are any of Brendel's concerto cycles worth getting?


The cycle with Levine is very good overall.  The Emperor is a bit weak compared to someone like Pollini or Serkin or Katchen, but then, so are most recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 18, 2013, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2013, 07:22:13 PM

I wouldn't say it is essential, but overall I find the 70s sonata cycle to be the best of his three, and less quirky, though a bit colder, than the third set.  I'm slowly working my way through it again now, and while some sonatas just miss for me, when he is on, like Op 22 for instance, he can be really on.  Op 28 was also a bit better than I recall. 




The cycle with Levine is very good overall.  The Emperor is a bit weak compared to someone like Pollini or Serkin or Katchen, but then, so are most recordings.

Thanks, will add to the wishlist accordingly.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on June 18, 2013, 07:36:32 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2013, 07:22:13 PM

I wouldn't say it is essential, but overall I find the 70s sonata cycle to be the best of his three, and less quirky, though a bit colder, than the third set.  I'm slowly working my way through it again now, and while some sonatas just miss for me, when he is on, like Op 22 for instance, he can be really on.  Op 28 was also a bit better than I recall. 

Off-topic: What do you think about his Schubert, Todd? I really like his Beethoven (actually I have his three complete cycles), but I consider even better his Schubert.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2013, 08:42:44 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on June 18, 2013, 07:36:32 PMWhat do you think about his Schubert, Todd?



I find his Schubert to be better, and at his best, Brendel is on par with anyone.  I can think of no better D959 than his studio recording, for instance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 19, 2013, 01:08:52 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 18, 2013, 07:28:50 PM
Thanks, will add to the wishlist accordingly.

If you feel like adding the Levine/Brendel Concertos, they're cheaply had on this TRIO:



LvB, PCs. Brendel/Levine/CSO (live)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000065TV4.01.L.jpg)
  L.v. Beethoven
The Piano Concertos
Alfred Brendel
James Levine / Chicago SO
Philips/Decca (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000065TV4/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000065TV4/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000065TV4/goodmusicguideuk-21)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000041MN.01.L.jpg)
  L.v. Beethoven
The Piano Concertos
Alfred Brendel
James Levine / Chicago SO
Philips/Decca (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041MN/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041MN/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041MN/goodmusicguideuk-21)


LvB, PCs. Brendel/Rattle/WPh
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IIX1.01.L.jpg)
  L.v. Beethoven
The Piano Concertos
Alfred Brendel
Simon Rattle / WPh
Philips/Decca (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IIX1/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IIX1/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IIX1/goodmusicguideuk-21)


LvB, PCs. & Choral Fantasy, Brendel/Various/VSO
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001K73.01.L.jpg)
  L.v. Beethoven
The Piano Concertos
Alfred Brendel
Heinz Wallberg, Zubin Mehta et al.
Vox (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001K73/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001K73/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001K73/goodmusicguideuk-21)


LvB, PCs. Brendel/Haitink/LPO
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eXH%2B822kL._SX300_.jpg)
  L.v. Beethoven
The Piano Concertos
Alfred Brendel
Bernard Haitink / London Philharmonic
MHS (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0032ITZAS/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0032ITZAS/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0032ITZAS/goodmusicguideuk-21)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000026FH4.01.L.jpg)
  L.v. Beethoven
The Piano Concertos
Alfred Brendel
Bernard Haitink / London Philharmonic
Philips/Decca (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026FH4/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026FH4/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026FH4/goodmusicguideuk-21)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 19, 2013, 02:23:44 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2013, 08:42:44 PM
I find his Schubert to be better, and at his best, Brendel is on par with anyone.  I can think of no better D959 than his studio recording, for instance.

I also find his Schubert to be better (though I don't like his Beethoven) and really like his live D959. His Haydn I like most of all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 19, 2013, 08:46:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2013, 01:08:52 AM
If you feel like adding the Levine/Brendel Concertos, they're cheaply had on this TRIO:





LvB, PCs. & Choral Fantasy, Brendel/Various/VSO
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001K73.01.L.jpg)
  L.v. Beethoven
The Piano Concertos
Alfred Brendel
Heinz Wallberg, Zubin Mehta et al.
Vox (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001K73/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001K73/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001K73/goodmusicguideuk-21)


Thanks.   I'm fairly certain that Vox cover is the first picture I've ever seen of him at a relatively young age.

BTW, in ticking off cycles I own last night, I rather oddly forgot about FF Guy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on June 19, 2013, 08:07:23 PM
Quote from: George on June 19, 2013, 02:23:44 AM
I also find his Schubert to be better (though I don't like his Beethoven) and really like his live D959. His Haydn I like most of all.

Yes, those Haydn discs are great, too. I also love his Mozart piano concertos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: valtys on June 25, 2013, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: Fred on March 31, 2013, 01:36:52 AM
BEen listening to Byron Janis (op21, 17', 109) in the new box set.  What a stunning pianist he was in prime.  Terrible that he didn't record more beethoven.

I will have to look for this. Janis's Mussorgsky Pictures and Rachmaninov's piano concertos are some of my favorite recordings. I have never thought of looking for his Beethoven recordings.

As for Beethoven sonatas, I find myself turning to Annie Fischer the most, with Richter and Pollini not far behind.
I also own the Claude Frank set and find that to be a wonderful cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2013, 05:17:30 PM
Kempff III is now available.  (I suppose it is actually Kempff II.)  Will I buy?


(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/54/7/7/939.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 30, 2013, 05:26:06 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2013, 05:17:30 PMWill I buy?

Hah! Let's not kid ourselves. ;)

I listened to most of the brand-new Volume I of Steven Masi's cycle today. The 'Pathetique' was good, I think, because I am almost totally burned out on the sonata but Masi made me listen with appreciation. Unfortunately the 'Pastorale' and Op. 79 were bogged down by first movements slow enough to be both eccentric and pedantic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2013, 05:33:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 30, 2013, 05:26:06 PMHah! Let's not kid ourselves.



Between this and the even more expensive Badura Skoda, it looks like I have to come up with some money for a big HMV Japan haul.  Must think, must think . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 01, 2013, 12:33:45 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2013, 05:17:30 PM
Kempff III is now available.  (I suppose it is actually Kempff II.)  Will I buy?


(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/54/7/7/939.jpg)

I read somewhere that Kempff is one of those pianists who relishes an audience and his performances really come to life when performing on the concert platform. The couple of live performances of his that I"ve heard would certainly back this up. Looking at the cover I am assuming that these were recorded in concert so maybe you should give it a go Todd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2013, 12:48:41 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 01, 2013, 12:33:45 PM
I read somewhere that Kempff is one of those pianists who relishes an audience and his performances really come to life when performing on the concert platform. The couple of live performances of his that I"ve heard would certainly back this up. Looking at the cover I am assuming that these were recorded in concert so maybe you should give it a go Todd.

It was (probably) the first LvB-Sonata Marathon, Stewart Goodyear notwithstanding. Seven concerts in, I believe, as many nights. Caught by the NHK on tape for radio broadcasts, so I don't know whether it's stereo. I think FM stereo broadcasting in Japan didn't take off until the end of the 60s and certainly not before 1963. But those limitations wouldn't necessarily have precluded them from catching & mixing it in stereo on the ground.


"Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles" updated accordingly... ditto parts 2 through 4. (New available versions of Barenboim I, Buchbinder I, Badura-Skoda I, and Grinberg added... some pictures cleaned up and formatting a bit nicer, perhaps, in places.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 01, 2013, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 01, 2013, 12:33:45 PMI read somewhere that Kempff is one of those pianists who relishes an audience and his performances really come to life when performing on the concert platform. The couple of live performances of his that I"ve heard would certainly back this up.



Based on my experience with Kempff's live recordings, I would have to agree with this.  His live Emperor with Ozawa from the 60s, while not the best technically, is rather more inspired than his roughly contemporaneous DG recording.

I'm pretty certain I will get Kempff III.  While I am at it, I'm thinking the Badura Skoda HIP and Ichiro Nodaira cycles may very well make their way across the Pacific.  Might as well go big to save on shipping, and take advantage of the weaker yen. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2013, 01:08:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2013, 12:48:41 PM
It was (probably) the first LvB-Sonata Marathon, Stewart Goodyear notwithstanding. Seven concerts in, I believe, as many nights. Caught by the NHK on tape for radio broadcasts, so I don't know whether it's stereo. I think FM stereo broadcasting in Japan didn't take off until the end of the 60s and certainly not before 1963. But those limitations wouldn't necessarily have precluded them from catching & mixing it in stereo on the ground.


"Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles" updated accordingly... ditto parts 2 through 4. (New available versions of Barenboim I, Buchbinder I, Badura-Skoda I, and Grinberg added... some pictures cleaned up and formatting a bit nicer, perhaps, in places.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

I think I noticed a typo Jens:

Quotepossibly at the height of his powers at 66, recorded live on seven consecutive nights in 1961, at the height of his powers?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 01, 2013, 01:09:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2013, 12:48:41 PM"Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles"



You should add Yusuke Kikuchi and Ichiro Nodaira, both now complete.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2013, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 01, 2013, 01:09:47 PM


You should add Yusuke Kikuchi and Ichiro Nodaira, both now complete.

I've still got vast lacunae towards the newer cycles... the excel file is filled, but the html-programming goeth slowly. :-(

Quote from: George on July 01, 2013, 01:08:39 PM
I think I noticed a typo Jens:

Thanks for catching that!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2013, 01:17:40 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2013, 01:13:49 PMThanks for catching that!!!

My pleasure! Thank you for your ongoing work in this series.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2013, 01:25:15 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 01, 2013, 01:09:47 PM


You should add Yusuke Kikuchi and Ichiro Nodaira, both now complete.

Incidentally I don't have much info on those, Todd...

Yusuke Kikuchi - ???? - ????, Triton
Ichiro Nodaira -  1998 - ????, Nami

Do you? (How many CDs, recording begin & end...)


These are some of the others I've not yet added, for various reasons (mostly lack of effort on my part, or lack of info, availability, completeness et al.)

...
François-Frédéric Guy, WWP, ZigZag Territories
...

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2013, 02:53:35 PM
If WWP means something like "work in progress",  then FF Guy needs to be changed to "finished".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 01, 2013, 03:01:27 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 01, 2013, 02:53:35 PM
If WWP means something like "work in progress",  then FF Guy needs to be changed to "finished".

Weird Wonderful Pianist?
World's Wittiest Pianist?
White Wicker Piano?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 01, 2013, 02:53:35 PM
If WWP means something like "work in progress",  then FF Guy needs to be changed to "finished".

It does... and now I have no clue anymore, why I thought that "WWP" was somehow an appropriate abbreviation for that. Strange!!!

Oh... I think in the furthest recesses of my mind must have been "WwO" -- but even that is really WoO. Maybe I'm just very confused. In any case, yep... noted that FFG has finished already. These kids. Just don't take time for things anymore. Lim is missing from the above, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 01, 2013, 06:49:32 PM
Yusuke Kikuchi - Rec 2010-2011; 8 discs/4 Volumes; Triton

Ichiro Nodaira -  Rec Unknown; 11 discs/11 volumes; Livenotes
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2013, 12:10:14 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 01, 2013, 06:49:32 PM
Yusuke Kikuchi - Rec 2010-2011; 8 discs/4 Volumes; Triton

Ichiro Nodaira -  Rec Unknown; 11 discs/11 volumes; Livenotes
thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 03, 2013, 08:02:42 AM
Quote from: Holden on July 01, 2013, 12:33:45 PM
I read somewhere that Kempff is one of those pianists who relishes an audience and his performances really come to life when performing on the concert platform. The couple of live performances of his that I"ve heard would certainly back this up. Looking at the cover I am assuming that these were recorded in concert so maybe you should give it a go Todd.

Is it absolutely certain that these are live concerts in front of an audience, not radio concerts? If yes, I'll get it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2013, 08:57:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 03, 2013, 08:02:42 AM
Is it absolutely certain that these are live concerts in front of an audience, not radio concerts? If yes, I'll get it.

You wouldn't give encores in a radio concert, right? From everything I understand, those were live, in front of an audience. With critics present. (Which is, obviously, what counts.  :D) )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 04, 2013, 02:31:14 PM
From what I can gather, reading on another forum, these were performed live in a series of concerts (between August 10th and 30th) and simultaneously broadcast by NHK Japan. As I like Kempff's LvB I might also look at getting this set. The only concern is the liner notes probably not being in English.

Here is a website where it's offerd for sale

http://tower.jp/item/3276466/Wilhelm-Kempff---The-Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Cycle-1961-in-Japan

A number of Japanese sites have a button where you can read an English version of the page. Is anyone au fait enough with the Tower site to work out if this is the case?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2013, 05:51:13 AM
It's listed at hmv.jp, which has an english website. also at amazon.jp, which is more expensive, but I've not investigated shipping charges. The release date is 10 Aug 2013. I'll wait til it's released I think, it may become available in Europe, or itunes and spotify.

I want this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 05, 2013, 01:32:40 PM
Thank you for that. Unfortunately any review material is still in Kanji. Like you I might also wait to see if it appears on Spotify or iTunes
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on July 05, 2013, 09:42:32 PM
There was a discussion a while ago about the great beethoven cycles that will never be. Can I add the name of Nelson Freire. What a tragedy he has recorded so little beethoven.  Masculine, sensitive (when required) with a stunning technique. Oh, Nelson, you have let us down.
Certainly, much prefer him to say, Kempff, who I find much too lyrical/poetic.  It sounds like Kempff rather than Beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2013, 08:00:42 AM
Barenboim Questions

Barenboim's EuroArts DVD Sonata Cycle (recorded at Palais Lobkowitz, Palais Rasumovsky, Palais Kinsky & Schloss Hetzendorf, Vienna, Austria in 1983-84) is the same as his DG cycle recorded on between 1981 and 1984?? Is the date "1983" simply wrong?

... much the way that Barenboim's EMI DVD Sonata Cycle (recorded Unter den Linden, 2005) is identical to his new Decca CD cycle...

How many sonatas did Barenboim ever finish recording for Westminster???


Title: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 06, 2013, 09:15:15 AM
Jens, when you say the EMI is identical to the new Decca do you mean in style or are they literally the same performances?l

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2013, 01:06:16 PM
Quote from: George on July 06, 2013, 09:15:15 AM
Jens, when you say the EMI is identical to the new Decca do you mean in style or are they literally the same performances?l

Identical performances. The Westminster recordings apart, he's not got 5 cycles, but "only" 3... EMI recordings...  and then DG is identical with EuroArts DVD/Bluray (Metropolitan Munich, Jean-Pierre Ponnelle), and the EMI DVDs are identical with the Decca performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 06, 2013, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 06, 2013, 01:06:16 PM
Identical performances. The Westminster recordings apart, he's not got 5 cycles, but "only" 3... EMI recordings...  and then DG is identical with EuroArts DVD/Bluray (Metropolitan Munich, Jean-Pierre Ponnelle), and the EMI DVDs are identical with the Decca performances.

Good to know, thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 12tone. on July 07, 2013, 03:11:08 PM
This one is for Todd, but then it's for anyone who knows.  Here are some new names for Beethoven PS cycles.  What do you think of these sets?:

- Jean-Bernard Pommier
- Maria Grinberg
- Michael Korstick
- Eric Heidseick
- Anne Oland
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 12tone. on July 07, 2013, 03:12:02 PM
By new I mean new to me  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 07, 2013, 03:24:54 PM
Jean-Bernard Pommier - First six discs or so sound spectacular (a great venue is used), and the playing is generally elegant and a bit light.  Okay, though some individual sonatas are fine (eg, Op 22).

Maria Grinberg - Hard to harsh at times, in mediocre to poor sound.  Not my cup of tea.

Michael Korstick - Masterfully played, alternating between very fast and very slow.  Good overall, but not a favorite.

Eric Heidseick - Willful but insightful and brilliant.  A great cycle.

Anne Oland - Terrible.  Along with HJ Lim, the worst cycle I've heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 12tone. on July 07, 2013, 04:14:54 PM
Thanks Todd!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 08, 2013, 08:22:44 AM
Latest, newest so far...


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 8, 2010 Onward


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)

INCL: R.BUCHBINDER II • H J LIM • S.GOODYEAR • F.F.GUY • L.LORTIE • P.RÖSEL


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on July 08, 2013, 03:35:19 PM
I'm currently listening to Paul Komen playing the Waldstein. He recorded 17 of the 32 on fortepiano between 1993 and 1998. According to this online bio (http://www.liszt.nl/pages/paul-komen) he subsequently played all 32 in concert. Does anyone know why he never completed the cycle in the studio?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 08, 2013, 04:34:40 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2013, 03:24:54 PM
Jean-Bernard Pommier - First six discs or so sound spectacular (a great venue is used), and the playing is generally elegant and a bit light.  Okay, though some individual sonatas are fine (eg, Op 22).

Maria Grinberg - Hard to harsh at times, in mediocre to poor sound.  Not my cup of tea.

Michael Korstick - Masterfully played, alternating between very fast and very slow.  Good overall, but not a favorite.

Eric Heidseick - Willful but insightful and brilliant.  A great cycle.

Anne Oland - Terrible.  Along with HJ Lim, the worst cycle I've heard.

Hi Todd - I'm also 'in the dark' w/ these performers, but Heidseick did pique my interest from your comments - where does in fit into your 'current' TOP 10 choices?  What's interesting on Amazon is that his sonata cycle is selling 'new' for $70 in the MP, but the 50 CD Beethoven box which includes these same recordings is available for $54, suggesting that the sonata set can be grabbed for $8 only!  BUT, I already own much of this remaining Beethoven - hmmm, what to do?  Thanks, as usual - Dave :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 08, 2013, 05:53:17 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 08, 2013, 04:34:40 PMHi Todd - I'm also 'in the dark' w/ these performers, but Heidseick did pique my interest from your comments - where does in fit into your 'current' TOP 10 choices?



He's definitely in the top 10, though in the second half I would have to say.  (Given that the big four are also included in the top ten, that's hardly anything other than very high praise.)  I must reiterate that his style is very willful, with hefty doses of idiosyncratic rubato throughout, but he is always stylish, tasteful, and he manages to call attention to the music more than his playing.  The set is available used at Amazon.fr for around 20 Euro or so.  I'm sure it will be re-re-reissued in France, at least, at some point.  I've yet to hear anything by Heidsieck that I didn't enjoy immensely.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 09, 2013, 06:55:23 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 08, 2013, 05:53:17 PM
He's definitely in the top 10, though in the second half I would have to say................ The set is available used at Amazon.fr for around 20 Euro or so.  I'm sure it will be re-re-reissued in France, at least, at some point.  I've yet to hear anything by Heidsieck that I didn't enjoy immensely.

Thanks Todd for the further comments on Eric Heidsieck - will add to my 'wish list' - Dave :)

Edit: Last name corrected (i before e) -  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 09, 2013, 07:36:19 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 09, 2013, 06:55:23 AM
Thanks Todd for the further comments on Eric Heidseick - will add to my 'wish list' - Dave :)

I'm not the only one who's prone to misspelling his name, then.  ;D

I had written (and thought!) "Heidiseck", for years. Only yesterday did I realize the blunder.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 09, 2013, 07:48:30 AM
We should make it Hideseek for ease of remembering.

And I'm still irritated that none of Hideseek's EMI recordings are on Naxos Music Library - going to be complicated (for me) to find physical copies of them all.

EDIT: Hey the sonata cycle is $40 at BRO!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 09, 2013, 07:51:59 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 09, 2013, 07:48:30 AM
We should make it Hideseek for ease of remembering.
And I'm still irritated that none of Hideseek's EMI recordings are on Naxos Music Library - going to be complicated (for me) to find physical copies of them all.
EDIT: Hey the sonata cycle is $40 at BRO!

You can find either the 1995 or the 2006 version cheap, used, on Amazon (from the UK, for example): http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_24.html)
Or, just to eavesdrop, a surprising amount of it on YouTube.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 09, 2013, 08:12:01 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 09, 2013, 07:48:30 AMAnd I'm still irritated that none of Hideseek's EMI recordings are on Naxos Music Library - going to be complicated (for me) to find physical copies of them all.



I'm more irritated that all of his post-EMI recordings (ie, post '60s, or so it seems) are Japanese-only issues, including the now impossible to find second recording of 101/106 from the abandoned second cycle.  (I have the 109/110/11 disc, and I do enjoy it.)  Can't Heidsieck just use some of that vast family fortune and gather up all his recordings for a big box?  Oh, how sweet that would be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 09, 2013, 08:27:53 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 09, 2013, 08:12:01 AM


I'm more irritated that all of his post-EMI recordings (ie, post '60s, or so it seems) are Japanese-only issues, including the now impossible to find second recording of 101/106 from the abandoned second cycle.  (I have the 109/110/11 disc, and I do enjoy it.)  Can't Heidsieck just use some of that vast family fortune and gather up all his recordings for a big box?  Oh, how sweet that would be.

If he can't even get his website out of the 90s... I wouldn't hold my breath on anything else.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 09, 2013, 11:54:15 AM
Before anyone sends off their 40 dollars to BRO,  remember that Heidsieck's cycle is part of this
[asin]B000J0ZPH4[/asin]
along with the Cluytens symphony cycle,  the Hungarian Trio and Hungarian Quartet, and some other goodies, for not much more.  And I got my copy from BRO, so it may still be available there for less than on Amazon MP.

ETA: but I do need to mention it's got the cheapest packaging I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 11, 2013, 01:32:38 AM
Edit: Korstick added -- both set and individual SACDs.


Latest, newest so far...


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 8, 2010 Onward


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)

INCL: R.BUCHBINDER II • H J LIM • S.GOODYEAR • F.F.GUY • L.LORTIE • P.RÖSEL


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:24:31 AM
Lubimov has moved over to Alpha, to record Opp. 27/2, 31/2 and 53.

https://soundcloud.com/outhere-music/beethoven-moonlight-sonata

And the FF Guy will be available in a 9-CD box in the near future (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/upcoming).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 13, 2013, 07:27:57 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:24:31 AM
Lubimov has moved over to Alpha, to record Opp. 27/2, 31/2 and 53.

https://soundcloud.com/outhere-music/beethoven-moonlight-sonata

And the FF Guy will be available in a 9-CD box in the near future (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/upcoming).

What did that link have to do with FF Guy?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:30:39 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 13, 2013, 07:27:57 AM
What did that link have to do with FF Guy?

Proof that the company says it will be available in the near future.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 13, 2013, 07:39:06 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:30:39 AM
Proof that the company says it will be available in the near future.

???  Maybe I'm dense.  It led me to a brochure by "Outthere music" which contained 19 pages of new releases, with no mention of FF Guy that I could find.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 13, 2013, 07:45:12 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:24:31 AM
Lubimov has moved over to Alpha, to record Opp. 27/2, 31/2 and 53.

https://soundcloud.com/outhere-music/beethoven-moonlight-sonata

And the FF Guy will be available in a 9-CD box in the near future (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/upcoming).

You left out that Gli Incogniti is recording Corelli and Cafe Zimmermann is beginning a Vivaldi series!!

And Scarpia - try page 22, bottom. Says the FFG 9CD box will be due in October.

There are some really exciting releases in there. Will be fun to hear over the rest of 2013.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:47:01 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 13, 2013, 07:39:06 AM
???  Maybe I'm dense.  It led me to a brochure by "Outthere music" which contained 19 pages of new releases, with no mention of FF Guy that I could find.

There are a couple more pages beyond No. 19.

Direct link: http://issuu.com/elvanden/docs/outhere_catalogue_-_2eme_semestre_e/21?e=6026233/3651782
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:48:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 13, 2013, 07:45:12 AM
You left out that Gli Incogniti is recording Corelli and Cafe Zimmermann is beginning a Vivaldi series!!

I would have if this had been the New Releases thread. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 13, 2013, 07:50:16 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:48:09 AM
I would have if this had been the New Releases thread. ;)
...oops. For some reason I thought it was. Reading comprehension fail!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 13, 2013, 07:55:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 13, 2013, 07:45:12 AM
You left out that Gli Incogniti is recording Corelli and Cafe Zimmermann is beginning a Vivaldi series!!

And Scarpia - try page 22, bottom. Says the FFG 9CD box will be due in October.

There are some really exciting releases in there. Will be fun to hear over the rest of 2013.

Quote from: Opus106 on July 13, 2013, 07:47:01 AM
There are a couple more pages beyond No. 19.

Direct link: http://issuu.com/elvanden/docs/outhere_catalogue_-_2eme_semestre_e/21?e=6026233/3651782

Ok, I see now.  Seems generally attractive, depending on how "special" the price is.  Looking at the individual releases, I recall my irritation that the sonatas are jumbled and the late sonatas are spread over two volumes.  If they were together I would have gotten them.  I'm not in the market for another complete cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 13, 2013, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 13, 2013, 07:55:46 AM
Ok, I see now.  Seems generally attractive, depending on how "special" the price is.  Looking at the individual releases, I recall my irritation that the sonatas are jumbled and the late sonatas are spread over two volumes.  If they were together I would have gotten them.  I'm not in the market for another complete cycle.

It is (if this is any help) a very good complete cycle. The Badura-Skoda Schubert which was listed in the previous Outhere newsletter was sold for $25 (9 CDs), and Eric Le Sage's complete Schumann (at least a dozen CDs) has been on sale for $27 sometimes. So the special price could be very special.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 14, 2013, 04:59:13 PM
.
[asin]B000B73H0W[/asin]


With VMF Records kaput, it took a while, but Sequeira Costa's cycle is going to be available in the States again soon.  It's currently available directly from Claudio Records.  If the price of the discs is nice enough (say, $10/each), I'll buy the seven volumes I don't have.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 14, 2013, 05:13:54 PM
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/027/601/0002760107_350.jpg)


OK, who is Miklos Skuta?  A Slovak pianist who studied under Claude Helffer, it seems.  Looks like he may just have a complete cycle, or something approaching it, under his belt.  The recordings aren't listed on his web site.  Amazon lists a whole bunch of CD-Rs, one sonata per disc at $8.98/each.  Not the way to buy, to be sure.  But what if he's Da Bomb?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2013, 05:17:51 PM
I've got to revise my initial estimation of Steven Masi's Volume I, self-released on CDBaby.com. Op. 79 still bothers me, but the Pastoral is eccentric in a way that may appeal to tastes other than mine, Op. 101 is joyous and the finale Bach-like in its contrapuntal intensity, and the "Pathetique" is the first time I've been able to take the sonata seriously in years. Still not a total fan of his work here, but I will be requesting review copies of future volumes. The biggest problem is the sound - it's much like that Rosser Schubert disc, boxy and hard on the treble.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 12tone. on July 14, 2013, 06:42:09 PM
Who's up for buying this one when it arrives?  I'm curious just because it's so out of no-where.  Plus who knows right?

It's going to be on at Amazon on July 16  :)

(http://www.gentblogt.be/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/20120327_StephanieProot1.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 12tone. on July 14, 2013, 07:14:50 PM
Just looked on my Rdio app and they have Proot's cd up!

She's playing fairly good.  Going to buy her cd no doubt now  :D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2013, 07:20:17 PM
Hmmm. She's a former student of Abdel Rahman El Bacha who's been in master classes with Leon Fleisher and Richard Goode; she's just about my age; and those are four of my favorite sonatas. I think if the opportunity strikes I will indeed give that a try.

You can listen to sample clips here. (http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-piano-sonatas.aspx) I hope the CD's sound quality is better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 12tone. on July 14, 2013, 07:27:02 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 14, 2013, 07:20:17 PM
Hmmm. She's a former student of Abdel Rahman El Bacha who's been in master classes with Leon Fleisher and Richard Goode; she's just about my age; and those are four of my favorite sonatas. I think if the opportunity strikes I will indeed give that a try.

You can listen to sample clips here. (http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-piano-sonatas.aspx) I hope the CD's sound quality is better.

I'm listening to her Moonlight sonata on my Rdio app.  It's up for downloads I guess.

She's really good.  I'm impressed.  While not as "glossy" as some big names, she makes up for that in having a personable sound.  Wow.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on July 15, 2013, 07:47:46 PM
Great place to go looking for complete sets in 7digital. They seem to charge $10 whether it is one CD or the complete set.  So you can get Goodyear, Korstick, Oppitz etc etc COMPLETE sets for $10.  Needless to say, I have bought many.

Has anyone listened to Tchetuev on Caromitis?  There are now six volumes and I've read some great reviews, but they are pricey


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 15, 2013, 08:10:27 PM
Quote from: 12tone. on July 14, 2013, 06:42:09 PM
Who's up for buying this one when it arrives?  I'm curious just because it's so out of no-where.  Plus who knows right?

It's going to be on at Amazon on July 16  :)

(http://www.gentblogt.be/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/20120327_StephanieProot1.jpg)

There's something creepy about that photo.  It reminds me of the girl who dresses up to look like an anime character.

(http://apricitydollshouse.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/flower-480-jpg_195249.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 12tone. on July 16, 2013, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 15, 2013, 08:10:27 PM
There's something creepy about that photo.  It reminds me of the girl who dresses up to look like an anime character.

(http://apricitydollshouse.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/flower-480-jpg_195249.jpg)

What?  :o  How did you get cosplay and Proot's together?  Maybe a little bit... :(


Here's another photo of her.  Is this better?


(http://www.cobra.be/polopoly_fs/1.1626160!image/2787065205.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape470/2787065205.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 16, 2013, 09:32:23 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 15, 2013, 08:10:27 PM
There's something creepy about that photo.  It reminds me of the girl who dresses up to look like an anime character.

(http://apricitydollshouse.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/flower-480-jpg_195249.jpg)

If this is really true, then you apparently have a big, big problem with appreciating women...  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on July 16, 2013, 10:48:02 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 16, 2013, 09:32:23 AM
If this is really true, then you apparently have a big, big problem with appreciating women...  ;D

Ms. Proot is very attractive. The problems are that somebody put her in an awkward pose and then somebody airbrushed her face. I did an image search, and that is the single worst photo of her. (The typography and graphic design are amateurish too.)

JMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: eumyang on July 19, 2013, 05:30:18 AM
My exposure to the Beethoven piano sonata cycle is quite limited, because I rarely own more than one recording of a piece of music.  This is one exception, for I own two cycles: Brendel I (Vox) and Goode.  Others which I either borrowed, or bought and later sold, are Schnabel, Brendel II (Philips-70s), Kempff II (stereo), and Barenboim (DVD).

Thanks to this thread, I've decided to get a third cycle... augh!  I've decided on the Gulda/Amadeo one.  I like fast (in fact, my favorite Beethoven symphony cycle is Zinman/Tonhalle Zürich).  I'll have to wait until late August to get it, however.  I'm in Korea now, and a lot of the classical CD's I've seen are more expensive than on Amazon -- at least that was the case at the bookstore that I usually go to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on July 22, 2013, 11:28:31 PM

I notice that IGOR LEVIT is about to put out a 2CD late Beethoven Sonatas on Sony.  Available in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 23, 2013, 05:41:51 AM
Quote from: Pat B on July 16, 2013, 10:48:02 AM
Ms. Proot is very attractive. The problems are that somebody put her in an awkward pose and then somebody airbrushed her face. I did an image search, and that is the single worst photo of her. (The typography and graphic design are amateurish too.)

JMO.

That is just what I mean.  The photo appears manipulated and makes her look like a doll.

Nothing wrong with her appearance in an ordinary photo.

(http://www.cmre.be/picture/2009_08/Stephanie%20Proot%20bis.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2013, 06:36:25 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on July 23, 2013, 05:49:16 AMHow does she play?



That's an unimportant question when a female pianist is involved.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 23, 2013, 06:45:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2013, 06:36:25 AM
That's an unimportant question when a female pianist is involved.

;D  :D

I have fold-outs of Clara Haskil, Eva Knardahl, and Annie Fischer.




(Actually, the young Annie Fischer looks like a very striking, elegant woman.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2013, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 23, 2013, 06:45:54 AM
;D  :D

I have fold-outs of Clara Haskil, Eva Knardahl, and Annie Fischer.

Now you need a Maria Yudina.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2013, 09:59:04 AM
Quote from: George on July 23, 2013, 09:25:59 AM

Now you need a Maria Yudina.

Or maybe Sara Davi(s) Buechner
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 23, 2013, 10:18:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 23, 2013, 05:48:31 AM
But then, really, the dolled-up photo is no more appropriate (or inappropriate) than suggesting that she "is very attractive". (Especially since she's a very ordinary looking kid.) She's a pimply, plain 14 or something in those photos... and frankly, the class of people to who she's "very attractive" comes a little too close to youknowwho (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia).

If we think back on early pics of that french pianist, who looked like tweety-bird... those were even more extreme, no?

You're thinking of these?

(http://rullf2.xs4all.nl/helenegrimaud/foto1.jpg) (http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/261/261895_1_f.jpg)

That photo, at least, is was not noticeably retouched.   The cover of that Proot CD struck me as a creepy attempt to make the girl look like some sort of nymph.

(http://www.gentblogt.be/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/20120327_StephanieProot1.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 23, 2013, 10:23:24 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 23, 2013, 10:18:27 AM
You're thinking of these?

(http://rullf2.xs4all.nl/helenegrimaud/foto1.jpg) (http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/261/261895_1_f.jpg)


Close, but no, these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yBHQwPj7L._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IGKLiJL5L._SY300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vxGzTfz6L._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mXvUveE8L._SX300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 23, 2013, 10:27:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 23, 2013, 10:23:24 AM
Close, but no, these:

Their marketing seems to have failed, I've never heard of her before.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 23, 2013, 10:38:40 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 23, 2013, 10:27:04 AM
Their marketing seems to have failed, I've never heard of her before.

She' quite remarkable, actually... Her Mozart/Prokofiev (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LXISFA/nectarandambr-20) album in particular is superb... and it contains my far-and-away favorite Ah, vous dirai-je, Maman Variations.

QuoteCDT: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/two-recent-prokofiev-recordings.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/two-recent-prokofiev-recordings.html)

...All this Prokofiev brought to mind another recent release, a solo double album by French prodigy Lise de la Salle. It is one disc of exquisite Mozart, with each note set carefully in place by her delicate, shaded touch, and another of raucous Prokofiev. This recording made the recommended list for 2007 that Jens offered at the WETA blog, and it makes me regret even more the circumstances that did not allow me to attend her 2007 recital at the Strathmore Mansion, where she played this very program (Mark Estren reviewed for the Post), not to mention her 2004 debut recital at the Terrace Theater.

Her Prokofiev selections include the outrageously virtuosic, especially the four-minute wild ride of the op. 11 toccata, but also the single-movement third sonata. Unlike Bronfman, de la Salle does not push the tempo as fast as she probably could (at 4:32, well behind 16-year-old Claire Huangci at the stunning but unnecessary 3:45, Martha Argerich at the near-perfect 4:12, and even Prokofiev's own piano roll at 4:22), although she plays at a vicious clip when it suits what she is trying to do in shaping the piece. Much of the most interesting playing comes in the selections from the Romeo and Juliet suite, in which de la Salle often stretches and distorts the musical fabric in the quest for some new color or texture.

Some listeners may not like it because it is not what they expect if they have previously formed ideas about Prokofiev, but others like to be surprised sometimes. To these ears, it bodes well for de la Salle's forthcoming concerto recording, which will include the first Prokofiev concerto. The 30-minute DVD (Lise de la Salle, Majeure, directed by Jean-Philippe Perrot) included in this release has some excerpts from the concerto recording sessions in Lisbon, as well as lovely footage of the pianist speaking (sometimes with her mother) and playing at La Roque d'Anthéron and at George Sand's home at Nohant.

As for the Mozart, her reading of the little A minor rondo (K. 511) brilliantly captures the sly, seductive qualities of the piece, in a way that makes Richard Egarr's otherwise capable performance on his recent recording seem almost prosaic. Two variation sets, the last movement of the (complete) D major sonata, K. 284, and the famous C major variations on Ah, vous dirai-je, Maman, K. 265, occasionally startle in their sparkly flash. Then she plays the penultimate variation as a sad French song, which of course the theme is, in a funny way, bringing out the similarities to Michel Legrand. All the more remarkable in that Lise de la Salle will be 20 years old this year.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on July 23, 2013, 10:40:35 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 23, 2013, 05:48:31 AM
But then, really, the dolled-up photo is no more appropriate (or inappropriate) than suggesting that she "is very attractive". (Especially since she's a very ordinary looking kid.) She's a pimply, plain 14 or something in those photos... and frankly, the class of people to who she's "very attractive" comes a little too close to youknowwho (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia).

Wow.

1. You have taken my statement totally out of context. I was responding to "you apparently have a big, big problem with appreciating women." My statement -- which could be summarized as: it's a bad photo but not because of the subject -- was really about the photographer, not Ms. Proot. Like Scarpia I think the photo is kind of creepy. I should have said the photo was not very flattering rather than judging whether she is attractive.

2. You don't know which photos I thought were more flattering.

3. She's 26.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 23, 2013, 11:31:58 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 23, 2013, 10:18:27 AM
That photo, at least, is was not noticeably retouched.   The cover of that Proot CD struck me as a creepy attempt to make the girl look like some sort of nymph.

Yeah, eery for sure.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 23, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
I came across this one today. It doesn't sound all that great, but it does sound like she is using a different piano. Anyone know what piano she is using?
[asin]B00BK6HREU[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2013, 12:43:57 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 23, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
I came across this one today. It doesn't sound all that great, but it does sound like she is using a different piano. Anyone know what piano she is using?
[asin]B00BK6HREU[/asin]
I reviewed that for MusicWeb (not yet published). Unfortunately she is using a Steinway D and the sound quality is just that bad.

"very poor sound quality (weirdly and almost artificially reverberant at climaxes, the piano so unflatteringly portrayed that I thought it was a period instrument), [and] occasional technical slips which may be because the disc was recorded in one day"

"[her Op. 110 finale] would probably sound good in concert but not in a reverberant environment which is a bit like if the piano keys were dropping into a swimming pool."

Just unpleasant to the ears, and the performances do not compensate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on July 23, 2013, 01:05:53 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2013, 12:43:57 PMUnfortunately she is using a Steinway D and the sound quality is just that bad.

The model D is the flagship of the Steinway line.  How could that be "unfortunate?"

Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2013, 12:43:57 PM"[her Op. 110 finale] would probably sound good in concert but not in a reverberant environment which is a bit like if the piano keys were dropping into a swimming pool."

You hear splashing when she plays?  What nonsense is this?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2013, 01:08:21 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 23, 2013, 01:05:53 PM
The model D is the flagship of the Steinway line.  How could that be "unfortunate?"
It's unfortunate because it means that the piano is a classic modern piano which sounds weird because of truly screwed-up engineering. The acoustic makes it sound like something from the 1860s.

Strange artificial clouds of reverb, plus really glassy, piercing, wince-inducing treble notes - maybe an echo chamber would have been a better analogy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 01, 2013, 06:01:11 PM
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4778806.jpg)


Coming in the fall. One step closer to finishing the longest gestating cycle ever.  By my reckoning, 31/1, 31/3, and 49/1 & 2 remain.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2013, 06:14:31 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 01, 2013, 06:01:11 PM
Coming in the fall. One step closer to finishing the longest gestating cycle ever.  By my reckoning, 31/1, 31/3, and 49/1 & 2 remain.

Those will fit nicely on one CD, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 01, 2013, 06:19:18 PM
Quote from: George on August 01, 2013, 06:14:31 PMThose will fit nicely on one CD, too.



Indeed.  Perhaps he ends his cycle with Op 49?  He started with the last works, after all, so why not end with the first?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2013, 06:25:26 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 01, 2013, 06:19:18 PM
Indeed.  Perhaps he ends his cycle with Op 49?  He started with the last works, after all, so why not end with the first?

Good point.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on August 01, 2013, 09:16:43 PM
I will wait for the limited edition box set when it is remastered, then reissued, and then reboxed without a booklet.   ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on August 01, 2013, 09:37:11 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 01, 2013, 06:01:11 PM
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4778806.jpg)


Coming in the fall. One step closer to finishing the longest gestating cycle ever.  By my reckoning, 31/1, 31/3, and 49/1 & 2 remain.

How much longer does he expect to live?  And should we give up hope for WTC Bk II?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on August 01, 2013, 09:51:14 PM
Quote from: Bogey on August 01, 2013, 09:16:43 PM
I will wait for the limited edition box set when it is remastered, then reissued, and then reboxed without a booklet.   ;D
I will photo copy the booklet and mail them to ya!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 02, 2013, 06:38:26 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 01, 2013, 09:37:11 PMHow much longer does he expect to live?  And should we give up hope for WTC Bk II?



Hopefully he lives a good long time, but I wouldn't hold out hope for Book II.  He stated in an interview with Gramophone a few years ago that he was interested in recording the first book, but he didn't mention the second.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on August 02, 2013, 07:31:31 AM
Quote from: springrite on August 01, 2013, 09:51:14 PM
I will photo copy the booklet and mail them to ya!

Thankee, Paul. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: eumyang on August 02, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 01, 2013, 06:19:18 PM
Indeed.  Perhaps he ends his cycle with Op 49?  He started with the last works, after all, so why not end with the first?
This reminded me of another post (maybe in this thread) where someone stated that among the 32 the Op. 49 were written first. My understanding is that among the 32 the Op. 2 were written first, by the Spring of 1795. Op. 49/2 may have been written between Op. 2 and Op. 7, around 1795-96. Op. 49/1 was later, around 1797, placing it before Op. 7, after Op. 7, or even during the composition of Op. 10.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 02, 2013, 05:53:28 PM
Quote from: eumyang on August 02, 2013, 02:04:58 PMThis reminded me of another post (maybe in this thread) where someone stated that among the 32 the Op. 49 were written first. My understanding is that among the 32 the Op. 2 were written first, by the Spring of 1795. Op. 49/2 may have been written between Op. 2 and Op. 7, around 1795-96. Op. 49/1 was later, around 1797, placing it before Op. 7, after Op. 7, or even during the composition of Op. 10.



I'll let scholars have the final word, but my understanding is that Op 49 were written around 1792.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 02, 2013, 07:28:53 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 02, 2013, 05:53:28 PM


I'll let scholars have the final word, but my understanding is that Op 49 were written around 1792.

Quick check of three cycles whose liner notes deal with the subject
Brendel III--compositional history unknown,  but probably written c. 1792
Paul Lewis--written as pedagogical works c. 1796-7
Andras Schiff--written as pedagogical works, compositional history unknown, written 1796-7 (the track listing is more definite than the liner notes)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on August 02, 2013, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: eumyang on August 02, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
This reminded me of another post (maybe in this thread) where someone stated that among the 32 the Op. 49 were written first. My understanding is that among the 32 the Op. 2 were written first, by the Spring of 1795. Op. 49/2 may have been written between Op. 2 and Op. 7, around 1795-96. Op. 49/1 was later, around 1797, placing it before Op. 7, after Op. 7, or even during the composition of Op. 10.

Schiff followed the chronological order of composition during his lecture series (http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html).

[Disclaimer: I'm not a scholar.]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 03, 2013, 09:16:25 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 02, 2013, 11:40:12 PM
Schiff followed the chronological order of composition during his lecture series (http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html).

[Disclaimer: I'm not a scholar.]

The individual CDs of the Schiff cycle also follow in roughly chronological order:  the Op. 49 sonatas therefore appear as the first two sonatas in Vol. III,  followed by the two sonatas of Op. 14 and by Op. 22.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: eumyang on August 03, 2013, 04:55:18 PM
I'm not a scholar either, but I do have an interest in things musicological.  So I decided to do a quick search. :)

I found a Wikipedia article "1792 in Music" where Op. 49 is listed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1792_in_music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1792_in_music)), but there was no source given.  There are also other websites (Youtube, a blog, a sheet music site, etc.) that list 1792 as the year of composition.

The Thayer-Forbes biography assigns the years 1795-96 to Op. 49/2, and 1798 to Op. 49/1.

Giovanni Biamonti compiled a catalog of Beethoven's works.  Here are the relevant entries:
Bia. 87 = Op. 2 (1793-95)
Bia. 120 = Op. 49/2 (1795-96)
Bia. 136 = Op. 7 (1796-97)
Bia. 157 = Op. 10 (1795-97)
Bia. 170 = Op. 49/1 (1797)

I have Barry Cooper's The Beethoven Compendium, but I am out of the country and cannot look it up, so I'm going by memory.  But I'm pretty sure that Cooper lists Beethoven's works first by genre and then by chronological order, and I'm pretty sure that he lists Op. 49 after Op. 2.

According to the liner notes from Idil Biret's Beethoven Edition:
QuoteBoth the sonatas that form Opus 49 were probably started in 1796 and completed by 1797–8. Although they are described as 'Easy Sonatas', much care has to be taken in performance. Beethoven held them back for publication in 1802, but they did not appear in print until three years later. Gustav Nottebohm verifies that they were finished before the "Pathétique" Sonata Op. 13 and the String Trio, Op. 9, No. 3, and certainly Beethoven's only full-scale Sonata for four hands in D major, Op. 6, appeared during this period.

Of course, none of this is really conclusive. :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: david-jw on August 05, 2013, 01:21:18 AM
I fervently wish Pollini would re-record the Op 109/110/111- I was lucky enough to see him perform them 18 months ago and it would be wonderful to have a recorded legacy of how he approaches them now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: eumyang on August 05, 2013, 05:04:58 AM
Quote from: eumyang on August 03, 2013, 04:55:18 PM
I have Barry Cooper's The Beethoven Compendium, but I am out of the country and cannot look it up, so I'm going by memory.  But I'm pretty sure that Cooper lists Beethoven's works first by genre and then by chronological order, and I'm pretty sure that he lists Op. 49 after Op. 2.
Because I wasn't sure that my memory about this was correct, I took a chance and emailed Prof. Cooper directly.  This is what he said:
QuoteThere's not much evidence available for the dating of these two sonatas, but it appears that Op. 49/2 was composed shortly before Op. 7 and Op. 49/1 shortly after Op. 7, probably about a year after No. 2.
I have Goode's Beethoven cycle as mp3 files (ripped from a CD set that I own) on my phone, and (because I'm weird) I just reordered the tracks into chronological order, more or less: 1, 2, 3, 20, 19, 4, 5, ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 08, 2013, 02:44:58 PM
Sequeira Costa Vol. II just arrived in my mailbox from my editors at MusicWeb.

Timings for the curious:

Waldstein
11:41
3:36
10:44

Appassionata
10:41
5:27
8:32

No. 27, Op. 90
5:34
7:38
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 08, 2013, 03:40:30 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 08, 2013, 02:44:58 PMSequeira Costa Vol. II just arrived in my mailbox from my editors at MusicWeb.



Back to the 90s!  It's been years since I listened to the disc, so perhaps I should revisit soon.  I also have the disc with Opp 10 and 13, but the sound has phase issues - it sounded better played back in mono.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on September 02, 2013, 11:47:27 AM
Hungeford's set is available VERY cheap on Piano Classics on mdt:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/beethoven-piano-sonatas-the-beethoven-bruce-hungerford-piano-classics-5cds.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/beethoven-piano-sonatas-the-beethoven-bruce-hungerford-piano-classics-5cds.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 02, 2013, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: The new erato on September 02, 2013, 11:47:27 AM
Hungeford's set is available VERY cheap on Piano Classics on mdt:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/beethoven-piano-sonatas-the-beethoven-bruce-hungerford-piano-classics-5cds.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/beethoven-piano-sonatas-the-beethoven-bruce-hungerford-piano-classics-5cds.html)

I have this set on the original Vanguard. It is my favourite incomplete set and I rank it above Gilels, Richter, etc in this regard. I wonder if there is any sonic gain with the new set but would urge anyone who hasn't heard Hungerford's LvB to take a listen. He thought very deeply about the music and a lot of it sounds quite fresh. As a Schnabel pupil he has an excellent pedigree and it's a tragedy that a drunk driver took his life before he completed the set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on September 02, 2013, 12:01:35 PM
Robert Silverman's 1999 (2000?) Beethoven sonatas cycle on Orpheum Masters, highly praised by Todd among others, but unavailable for some years now, is being reissued as a series of digital downloads. The two volumes released so far have appeared at several online stores including Amazon and iTunes, but CDBaby (http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/RobertSilverman1) might be the most attractive option, since a $9.99 purchase there gets you FLAC files in addition to mp3s. It's not a cheap way to acquire the whole cycle, and it apparently won't get you the original liner notes with Silverman's well-regarded commentary on each work. Still, better than nothing.

(http://images.cdbaby.name/r/o/robertsilverman12.jpg) (http://images.cdbaby.name/r/o/robertsilverman13.jpg)

Todd's review in the old Good Music Guide Forum (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,7809.0)

Silverman's website with details of reissue plans (http://robertsilverman.ca/index.php?mpage=disc&cid=23)

Silverman's blog (http://beethovenodyssey.blogspot.com/) with notes on his forthcoming second cycle, recorded live during a series of 2010 recitals in San Jose, California.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on September 02, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 02, 2013, 11:56:06 AM
As a Schnabel pupil...

Was he a direct one? Neither the description at MDT nor the Wiki bio mention Schnabel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 02, 2013, 10:58:05 PM
I see that EL BACHA is about to put out another complete beethoven set on Mirare. It's already on amazon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 03, 2013, 12:10:38 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 02, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
Was he a direct one? Neither the description at MDT nor the Wiki bio mention Schnabel.


...and I can't find a link online either though something at the back of my mind has a connection between Schnabel and Hungerford.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2013, 12:42:41 AM
Quote from: Holden on September 03, 2013, 12:10:38 AM

...and I can't find a link online either though something at the back of my mind has a connection between Schnabel and Hungerford.
Was it possible you had him confused with another pianist, "His [Schnabel's] students included Clifford Curzon, Rudolf Firkušný, Lili Kraus, Leonard Shure, Claude Frank, and Leon Fleisher."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 03, 2013, 05:47:06 AM
Quote from: Fred on September 02, 2013, 10:58:05 PMI see that EL BACHA is about to put out another complete beethoven set on Mirare. It's already on amazon.



I wonder if this is a new cycle, or a repackaging of the old cycle.  The last thing I need is to get another copy of El Bacha's first go-round.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 03, 2013, 07:02:25 AM
My review of Steven Masi, Vol. I, is up on MusicWeb. It has ups and downs:

"Best is the famous Pathétique, strong of spine and lyrical too, with some of Masi's idiosyncrasies - take the rhythms of the introduction, or the clear accompaniment in the adagio's central passages - perking up my ears. I'm pretty jaded about this piece, have heard it too many times, but Masi brought back my interest and curiosity and gave me greater pleasure than any performance has in years.
 
"On the other hand, the Pastoral sonata begins so slowly that Masi manages to be both eccentric and pedantic at the same time. Depending on the passage, the tempo can be breathtaking or dull, but it's possible to achieve glowing lyricism at far faster speeds.... The first movement of the tiny gem No. 25 (Op. 79) has a similarly heavy tread, which is a shame, because the rest of Masi's performance is more or less impeccable.

"The sound quality is a little boxy and studio-bound, with some very fine playing in the Pathétique spoiled by glassy treble - and at 3:26 in that sonata's adagio, a loud click. This is one of two Beethoven sonata CDs to arrive in my listening pile this summer from recording engineer Joseph Patrych, and the other (with pianist Beth Levin) was much worse. There's an executive producer named David Strathairn, and I wonder if this is the same David Strathairn who is an Oscar-nominated actor: Good Night and Good Luck, Lincoln. They've been in the same room together, at least; Strathairn narrated a multimedia program about the life of Robert Schumann, and news reports on the event mention that Masi was in the audience."
http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Sept13/Beethoven_sonatas_Masi.htm
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 03, 2013, 08:10:27 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 03, 2013, 07:12:02 AM
Schnabel comes from Clementi-Hummel-Czerny-Leschetitzky(Polish School) line, Hungerford comes from Wieck F.-Wieck C.-Freidberg(German School) line

The "labels" (Polish and German) for these schools/genealogies are a kind of joke, right?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 03, 2013, 09:30:53 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 03, 2013, 07:12:02 AM
Schnabel comes from Clementi-Hummel-Czerny-Leschetitzky(Polish School) line, Hungerford comes from Wieck F.-Wieck C.-Freidberg(German School) line

How are these different schools reflected in the playing of Scnabel and Hungerford?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 03, 2013, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 03, 2013, 08:30:16 AM
Not at all. What do you mean?

I mean it's not easy to think of Clementi, Hummel and Czerny as pianists of Polish tradition, even if you only consider the features described by you.

Anyway, one thing is sure: The habit of thinking the history of Art in terms of "schools" is typically French.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on September 03, 2013, 10:45:34 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 03, 2013, 10:32:31 AMThe habit of thinking the history of Art in terms of "schools" is typically French.  :)
Are you French? ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 03, 2013, 11:37:19 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 03, 2013, 09:42:57 AM
I don't know or, rather, I don't care because Hungerford is not a pianist I care for. But pedagogically German school involves more elbow, playing is more forceful and serious, Backhaus and Kempff. Polish is more close to Russian with body and shoulders more in the works. Playing is intuitive, emotional and more expressive, Rachmaninoff, Gilels. French school is more about close fingers. Playing is elegant and precision is important. I have an academic list of who is whose teacher-student since Bach JS... Too much info for "labels"

Maybe you can listen to and tell us what the differences are if you have their recordings?

This subdivision is too categorical and arbitrary to be useful,- well perhaps in the educational sense, but not in the musical sense.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wakefield on September 03, 2013, 12:31:36 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 03, 2013, 11:20:20 AM
They are not. The one that I put Polish next to is Polish...
It's not a a habit or thinking. It's knowledge and a fact. What you try to impose as "sure thing" is a wrong "opinion"... You are talking about history of art, I am not, and I was not. It's piano education...

I don't agree, Annie.

If you put "Clementi-Hummel-Czerny-Leschetitzky(Polish School)", the expression" Polish School" is referring all the chain of names separated by hyphens. This conclusion is not modified by the fact that you omit the space between "Leschetitzky" and "(Polish School)."

If you meant: "This guy was a Polish", the expression "Polish School" is a bit grandiloquent. If not, what it means? Maybe "this guy studied in the Polish brach of the Clementi-Hummel-Czerny School"?

Classifications are never "facts", but only a sort of help for our weak memory. If a particular training doesn't have influence on the artistry or style of a performer, it's just an anecdote without musical importance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 05, 2013, 07:01:48 PM
TODD - Re El Bacha, it does look like a new set.  Timings very different. The old one was Forlane. This one is Mirare.  9cds vs 10cds.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2013, 07:31:10 PM
Hey, Fred's right. Track timings for the 1996 recording of Op. 31 (http://www.last.fm/music/Abdel+Rahman+El+Bacha/Ludwig+Van+Beethoven+:+Trois+sonates+-+Op.+31). New track timings for full cycle. (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-piano-sonatas/dp/B00DOF9IDS) Op. 31 No. 1 was 21 minutes even in the '90s, now it's almost 24. Looks like almost every track got substantially slower.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 05, 2013, 07:47:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2013, 07:31:10 PM
Hey, Fred's right. Track timings for the 1996 recording of Op. 31 (http://www.last.fm/music/Abdel+Rahman+El+Bacha/Ludwig+Van+Beethoven+:+Trois+sonates+-+Op.+31). New track timings for full cycle. (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-piano-sonatas/dp/B00DOF9IDS) Op. 31 No. 1 was 21 minutes even in the '90s, now it's almost 24. Looks like almost every track got substantially slower.


One the one hand, the set is available for a low price in France starting 9/10 (28 Euro); on the other hand, El Bacha's first cycle is one of the weakest of the 70 I've heard.  What to do, especially with Kempff III beckoning?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2013, 07:50:42 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 05, 2013, 07:47:42 PM
One the one hand, the set is available for a low price in France starting 9/10 (28 Euro); on the other hand, El Bacha's first cycle is one of the weakest of the 70 I've heard.  What to do, especially with Kempff III beckoning?

Stop going to the grocery, I guess.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: RebLem on September 09, 2013, 07:34:07 AM
Annie Fischer and Bruce Hungerford.  You don't need anyone else.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on September 09, 2013, 09:09:27 AM
So are we naming our two favorite cycles, now?

For insightful playing and contrast in general approach: Kempff (50s) and Gulda (60s)

Interestingly, I've read a few opinions (I can't remember where, and not necessarily at GMG) that lump Kempff and Gulda together as having similar approaches, but I've always felt that the opposite is true.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 09, 2013, 09:12:21 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on September 09, 2013, 09:09:27 AM
So are we naming our two favorite cycles, now?

For insightful playing and contrast in general approach: Kempff (50s) and Gulda (60s)

Interestingly, I've read a few opinions (I can't remember where, and not necessarily at GMG) that lump Kempff and Gulda together as having similar approaches, but I've always felt that the opposite is true.

Yeah, Gulda and Kempff approach this music very differently. At the least, they are way more different than they are alike.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2013, 05:24:04 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uQsmH44hL._SY450.jpg)



My copy of El Bacha's new cycle arrived.  It's almost hot off the presses, having been recorded between April 2012 and January of this year.  The pianist opted for a Bechstein.  Think I'll start in on the cycle tonight.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2013, 07:10:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2013, 05:24:04 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uQsmH44hL._SY450.jpg)

My copy of El Bacha's new cycle arrived.  It's almost hot off the presses, having been recorded between April 2012 and January of this year.  The pianist opted for a Bechstein.  Think I'll start in on the cycle tonight.

Hi Todd - looking forward to your comments!  BUT, if purchased how should his name be entered into a database?   ;) ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 16, 2013, 07:35:56 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2013, 07:10:36 PM
Hi Todd - looking forward to your comments!  BUT, if purchased how should his name be entered into a database?   ;) ;D  Dave

"El Bacha" is the surname. You may also have seen Naxos CDs dedicated to a composer with the surname "El Khoury." It's a different way of spelling/transliterating "al-", so it could have been al-Bacha had the pianist come from a different country with a slightly different Arabic tradition.

As for Abdel Rahman; all Abdel and Abdul names are religious names; Abdel/Abdul means "slave of the" and "Rahman" basically means benevolent God. It's kind of a compound first name, and is sometimes spelled as one word. Same goes for names like Abdel Aziz, Abdullah (slave of God), or Abdurrahim. Nobody would ever be named just plain Abdel/Abdul; that would be like if your last name was just "Son" instead of "Johnson."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 17, 2013, 06:03:04 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 16, 2013, 07:35:56 PM
"El Bacha" is the surname. You may also have seen Naxos CDs dedicated to a composer with the surname "El Khoury." It's a different way of spelling/transliterating "al-", so it could have been al-Bacha had the pianist come from a different country with a slightly different Arabic tradition.

As for Abdel Rahman; all Abdel and Abdul names are religious names; Abdel/Abdul means "slave of the" and "Rahman" basically means benevolent God. It's kind of a compound first name, and is sometimes spelled as one word. Same goes for names like Abdel Aziz, Abdullah (slave of God), or Abdurrahim. Nobody would ever be named just plain Abdel/Abdul; that would be like if your last name was just "Son" instead of "Johnson."

Thanks Brian for the detailed description - Dave :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on September 17, 2013, 01:24:57 PM
I've just finished slowly making my way through Louis Lortie's set. Really excellent playing throughout and thoughtful interpretations. He's all about "color," I'd say, and even in more powerful passages he goes for a beautiful tone (which might not be to everybody's liking). That's not to say that this is wimpy Beethoven, though.

One thing that struck me about his playing, especially in the earlier sonatas, is the subtlety of his left hand—it's always doing something interesting, even where it's really straightforward accompaniment. I'm thinking particularly of moments like the trio of the third movement of Op. 7, where the accompanimental figure is a quick repeated arpeggio.

Incidentally I had similar thoughts about Daniel Barenboim's left hand on his DG cycle from the '80s. With that set, though, I was especially struck by passages where the left hand plays chords. Barenboim always seems to hold those left-hand chords for just the right duration, and he does such a nice job of bringing out the "tops" of the chords to convey a sense of a secondary (or primary, as the case may be) melody in the middle register.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 17, 2013, 01:47:10 PM

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00DWOBNAM.01.L.jpg)
L.v. Beethoven
Piano Sonatas opp. 101, 106
M.Kodama
PentaTone SACD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00DWOBNAM/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00DWOBNAM/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00DWOBNAM/goodmusicguideuk-21)

There are several very notable highlights in this cycle and this might just be one of them, too.

Someone has to be the musician in the family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Nagano), after all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 18, 2013, 03:57:15 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2013, 05:24:04 PM
My copy of El Bacha's new cycle arrived.  It's almost hot off the presses, having been recorded between April 2012 and January of this year.  The pianist opted for a Bechstein.  Think I'll start in on the cycle tonight.

Thanks for the info!!! Cheers, jfl
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 27, 2013, 06:03:09 PM
Been listening to Michelangeli play 111 (the Decca version).  What a stunning performance. I expected, based on his reputation, that it would be rather dry and clinical.  Far from it. For most of its length, it's just a raging torrent.  Sound OK, but not great. Truly amazing that Decca hasn't remastered this masterful performance (when you consider what else gets remastered three or four times).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 27, 2013, 06:28:51 PM
Quote from: Fred on September 27, 2013, 06:03:09 PM
Been listening to Michelangeli play 111 (the Decca version).  What a stunning performance. I expected, based on his reputation, that it would be rather dry and clinical.  Far from it. For most of its length, it's just a raging torrent.  Sound OK, but not great. Truly amazing that Decca hasn't remastered this masterful performance (when you consider what else gets remastered three or four times).

At the least reissue it. I haven't heard it and used copies start at $35 on amazon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 30, 2013, 06:18:04 AM

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00E7NJ4FS.01.L.jpg)
L.v. Beethoven
Beethoven Sonatas v.6
(Sonatas 9-11, 15)
Timothy Ehlen
Azica (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7NJ4FS/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7NJ4FS/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7NJ4FS/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Low-key pleasantness...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 30, 2013, 06:58:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 30, 2013, 06:18:04 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00E7NJ4FS.01.L.jpg)
L.v. Beethoven
Beethoven Sonatas v.6
(Sonatas 9-11, 15)
Timothy Ehlen
Azica (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7NJ4FS/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7NJ4FS/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7NJ4FS/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Low-key pleasantness...



That'd be a step up for this cycle.  Odd that Amazon US doesn't list it in stock.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 30, 2013, 07:00:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 30, 2013, 06:18:04 AM
Low-key pleasantness...

Thanks for the warning!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2013, 08:49:29 AM
Has anyone had a chance to hear the 1961 Kempff sonatas from Tokyo? How is the sound? Can you make any comments on the performances yet? I've held off ordering, despite great curiosity, because of the cost, but I am itching to get it really.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 30, 2013, 08:50:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 30, 2013, 08:49:29 AMHas anyone had a chance to hear the 1961 Kempff sonatas from Tokyo? How is the sound? Can you make any comments on the performances yet? I've held off ordering, despite great curiosity, because of the cost, but I am itching to get it really.



My copy shipped today from HMV Japan, along with two other cycles and some other stuff.  I should be able to report back sometime in November.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 01, 2013, 07:10:00 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61bAycaY3SL._SX300_.jpg)


Received my copy.  Not only does the set have two recordings of the Diabellis, it has a new recording of Op 111 and 126.  111 and one set of Diabellis is performed on the same Bechstein that Wilhelm Backhaus used for some performances and recordings, and the other Diabelli and Op 126 are performed on an 1820 fortepiano.  Should make for some interesting listening.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 01, 2013, 07:36:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 01, 2013, 07:10:00 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61bAycaY3SL._SX300_.jpg)


Received my copy.  Not only does the set have two recordings of the Diabellis, it has a new recording of Op 111 and 126.  111 and one set of Diabellis is performed on the same Bechstein that Wilhelm Backhaus used for some performances and recordings, and the other Diabelli and Op 126 are performed on an 1820 fortepiano.  Should make for some interesting listening.

I've already recorded my first impression here on GMG, and will be interested in yours.  I'll only say that I'm not sure the contrast in instruments for the Diabellis provided anything new to the conversation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 02, 2013, 03:25:31 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 01, 2013, 07:10:00 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61bAycaY3SL._SX300_.jpg)


Received my copy.  Not only does the set have two recordings of the Diabellis, it has a new recording of Op 111 and 126.  111 and one set of Diabellis is performed on the same Bechstein that Wilhelm Backhaus used for some performances and recordings, and the other Diabelli and Op 126 are performed on an 1820 fortepiano.  Should make for some interesting listening.

Interesting. I thought Backhaus had used a Bösendorfer for his Beethoven recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 03, 2013, 05:17:52 PM
Copying some relevant posts from the listening thread over here:

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 27, 2013, 05:14:47 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NFsEsOGLL._SX300_.jpg)

Hmm.  The Arietta from the 32nd Sonata (played on a 1920 Bechstein) was downright jazzy in places;  the Bagatelles (1820 Brodmann) were excellent; the main attraction,  the pair of Diabellis (one on each instrument), I'm much less decided about, and while the sound of the instruments was of course noticeably different,  I'm not sure there were any other important  differences between the two performances. The artist photos in the liner booklet, showing Schiff playing in what seems to be a very sumptous dressing gown/bathrobe,  are slightly odd.  (He does seem to have aged noticeably in the last few years.) Further listens will be required before anything like a final opinion can be rendered.

Quote from: Opus106 on September 28, 2013, 02:45:06 AM
Don't tell Mr. Schiff that; you'll upset him. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hQBq8_5lCEY#t=1516

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wk-iqxqixhY#t=105

Quote from: Pat B on September 29, 2013, 11:07:45 PM
"Banality." Ouch! Well, I wouldn't say "jazz," and I definitely wouldn't say "boogie woogie," but I do hear a clear foreshadow of ragtime. Ragtime was a precursor to (or arguably an early form of) jazz though many other styles of jazz sound very different. But when people say it sounds jazzy, we know what they mean.

Schiff seems to think the word "jazzy" diminishes its spirituality. This variation is obviously not the solemn or peaceful sense of spiritual. It's more ecstatic as Schiff says. I don't think jazzy is incompatible with that.

Thread duty: Beethoven: Piano Sonata, op. 111 (Kempff '51)

Quote from: Opus106 on September 29, 2013, 11:14:48 PM
I agree. The first time I noticed this variation, I checked my iPod for a Scott Joplin track (even though I knew there was none).

Agree here too! Ludwig was letting his hair down... more than usual.

My comments are about the 2nd movement, 3rd variation. I've had it stuck in my head for several days. Eventually I realized that in my head, I hear a swing rhythm (triplets with the first two tied) -- which is "jazzy" -- but it's actually written as dotted 32nd and 64th notes.

Meanwhile I've listened to 3 recordings (Kempff '51, Gulda on Amadeo, and the mp3 of Jumppanen from the Gardner Museum). I wasn't always specifically listening for it but I think all of them play the dotted rhythms as written.

I don't own either of Schiff's recordings, but I have listened to those lectures several times. And despite his protests about thinking of it as "jazzy," his rhythms sound swung, not dotted, to me.

Does anybody else hear this?

The others I own are Pollini and Komen. I'll try to re-listen to them over the next few days then follow up. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._32_%28Beethoven%29), two pianists who refer to jazz are Uchida and Denk, neither of whom I have heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 03, 2013, 05:29:09 PM
There's also this cycle, in progress

[asin]B00B2N0OZU[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on October 03, 2013, 05:40:54 PM
The rhythms are in fact triplets, not dotted; the numbers aren't written in (the score would be even messier than it already is if they were) so it can be hard to tell, but each 32nd beat is in fact subdivided into a triplet 32nd and a triplet 64th, the basic swing rhythm, just in smaller note values. (The giveaway is the time signature, 12/32, rather than the 24/32 it would be if they were dotted, and in the longer held chords.)

(I whipped this up in Sibelius, these may or may not be the actual notes)
(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/bven_0001.png)

I also can't help hearing a bit of swing in that variation, but I think that's partly because with piano music I've actually played (or at least sight-read) I tend to sort of impose my own interpretation whenever I'm listening, rather than paying attention to whatever the performer is doing, unless it's extremely different. Never heard Uchida or Denk in this either.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 03, 2013, 07:30:41 PM
Well, now I feel a bit sheepish. amw is absolutely correct. I apparently didn't look very closely at the score. The 32nds are not dotted. The notes as written add up to 18/32; if they were dotted it would be 24/32. To get it to 12, each 32nd-64th pair must total the duration of a 32nd.

Thank you for the explanation.

Now I have to figure out why some recordings sound dotted (i.e. 3:1 instead of 2:1) to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 03, 2013, 09:50:57 PM
At the risk of belaboring the point about the Op. 111/II "tied-triplet" rhythm:

That pattern pervades the earlier variations, too, and it's even introduced in the Arietta theme itself. Each successive variation simply halves the note durations, but the basic ONE-(two)-three rhythmic cell is present from the anacrusis that begins the movement. (And doesn't that LONG-short pattern call to mind the agitated dotted rhythms of the introduction to the first movement? Another "transformative" connection might exist between the rumbling trill on low G that ends that introduction and the ethereal trill on a high G near the end of the second movement. Hmm...)

I love Schiff's playing, and I treasure his lectures on the Beethoven piano sonatas, but I've sometimes felt that he comes off as a bit of a snob. His comments on boogie-woogie are a case in point.

That said, I do think it's a mistake to regard the Arietta rhythms as some sort of precursor to jazz. Yes, LONG-short rhythms are characteristic of much jazz and some late ragtime (you won't find them before 1910, and you won't find them in Joplin at all*), and Beethoven's use of the same in Op. 111/II was definitely an innovation. But I submit that the rhythmic energy of the 12/32 variation is properly understood contextually as the short-lived culmination of a process of rhythmic diminution, whereas those aforementioned rhythms in jazz are typically constant and function in a fundamentally different way. Plus, Op. 111 had virtually no influence on early jazz musicians. It's really just a (delightful) coincidence.

*I can, however, think of a couple spots where Joplin uses short-LONG patterns: second strain of "Pine Apple Rag," final strain of "Gladiolus Rag." But by the late 1910s, those now-classic LONG-short rhythms were everywhere, usually notated as dotted figures (not as triplets). A nice example is Zez Confrey's novelty rag "Kitten on the Keys." Confrey, by the way, never "swung" those dotted rhythms in his recordings or piano rolls, though the same can't be said of his "stride"-pianist contemporaries like Fats Waller (who was quite clearly influenced by Confrey—just listen to "Handful of Keys"!).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 04, 2013, 09:28:43 AM
I don't think it's belabored at all. As much as I enjoy the recording lists and comparisons, I think it's good to have this sort of discussion too.

Another thing we haven't mentioned here is the syncopation. That is the ragtime element, I think. There's a little bit of syncopation in the previous variation but it's a very different effect.

And the tied triplets do remind me of swing in a way that the same rhythm sometimes doesn't (e.g. "Montagues and Capulets" from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet).

Great point about the relationship between variations and how that differs from jazz. And yet, the vibe is unavoidable for me (and apparently for others). As Schiff says, we can't un-hear all the other music we've heard. So it's hard for me to hear it as the continuation of the pattern and not as something completely different... but I'll try.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Opus106 on October 04, 2013, 11:17:16 AM
Quote from: Pat B on October 04, 2013, 09:28:43 AM
Great point about the relationship between variations and how that differs from jazz.

Yes, thank you,aquariuswb, for that.

Quote
And yet, the vibe is unavoidable for me (and apparently for others). As Schiff says, we can't un-hear all the other music we've heard.

Precisely. And I'm not sure if my associations (or anyone else's, for that matter) can be termed as 'wrong', since I have little idea about the fractions being talked about* but the music nevertheless reminded me of what I had heard of Joplin (I can't entirely control the way the neurons fire, you know ;D). However, I'm not implying that Beethoven, with this variation, set jazz rolling.



*Although I heartily welcome such discussion amidst endless table-pounding
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 04, 2013, 11:26:18 AM
Yeah, I don't mean that it's wrong of us to form associations based on our listening experiences—that's unavoidable and not necessarily undesirable.

I guess the "precursor to jazz" stuff irks me in the same way that the "so-and-so was ahead of so-and-so's time" stuff irks me. I realize that many people are just waxing poetic when they say those kinds of things, but I think that sometimes folks (and lest I be misunderstood, I'm not insinuating anything about you folks) take that figurative language rather literally. And to those latter people (were they interested in my opinion), I would say that so-and-so is never actually ahead of so-and-so's time, although later artists can certainly A) be influenced by so-and-so, or B) do things reminiscent of what so-and-so did without having been directly influenced by so-and-so. In the case of Op. 111 and ragtime/jazz, it's decidedly B).

I totally know what you mean about the syncopation in that 12/32 variation. I'd even say that just as the Arietta theme already contains kernels of the LONG-short rhythm that pervades the ensuing variations, so does it already contain a kernel of the syncopation that intensifies as the movement unfolds (I'm thinking of the B and D sixteenths at the end of m. 7 that get tied across the bar line). For the left-hand pattern in the first variation, Beethoven takes this "tie" idea and runs with it, tying the third note in each "triplet" to the first in the next, both within and across measures.

And then he does something really strange in the second half of the first variation: in m. 26, he breaks the LONG-short regularity in the right hand in such a way that confuses your ear (or my ear, at least) into feeling the rhythm "early" by one sixteenth, yet also in a way such that I'm not really sure if that's what's actually just happened. I feel disoriented until the downbeat of m. 29, where the B-D dyad in the right hand is unexpectedly sounded a third consecutive time, "regaining" ("reclaiming"?) that "lost" beat. That's when the reassuring LONG-short flow returns, and everything is normal again. There's something beautifully unsettling about those measures. I hear them as a glimpse of trouble in paradise, a sort of metrical high-wire act made all the more dramatic by a crescendo and some slithery chromaticism. This strange new something is retained and developed in the next two variations.

Incidentally, Beethoven does something quite similar in the first movement of Op. 101 during the transition from the exposition to the development: we "lose" a beat with the syncopation beginning at m. 29, and we "regain" it at m. 35, again with an unexpectedly reiterated dyad in the right hand. The overall effect is quite different here (gentle diatonic cadential gestures over a static tonic pedal, all at a steady piano), but the rhythmic technique is more or less the same. In both cases, if you're tapping your foot along, everything's copacetic once the process has finished. For that reason, I prefer recordings that maintain a steady tempo for those kinds of rhythmically "shifty" passages, which aren't terribly uncommon in Beethoven's oeuvre. There's a time and place for rubato, but it's elsewhere and elsewhen, methinks. Don't get me started on Pletnev's "Eroica"  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on October 04, 2013, 03:51:16 PM
Quote from: Pat B on October 03, 2013, 07:30:41 PM
Now I have to figure out why some recordings sound dotted (i.e. 3:1 instead of 2:1) to me.

I wonder if to some extent it's pianists trying to make it sound not like jazz—i.e. they can't un-hear the swing rhythms in the music as written, so they overdot to make it sound more "classical".

Which I imagine is similar to the problems around the interpretation of notes inégales (one of which—not sure if it's the most common—is a consistent long-short inequality similar to swing or the Arietta). Following an editorial suggestion in one of the editions of the Well-Tempered Clavier I tried out the G-sharp minor prelude from Book I that way; it sounded not bad, but still had too much of the Modern Jazz Quartet about it, and I prefer to hear it "straight" even if it's less historically accurate.

Quote from: aquariuswb on October 04, 2013, 11:26:18 AM
I totally know what you mean about the syncopation in that 12/32 variation. I'd even say that just as the Arietta theme already contains kernels of the LONG-short rhythm that pervades the ensuing variations, so does it already contain a kernel of the syncopation that intensifies as the movement unfolds (I'm thinking of the B and D sixteenths at the end of m. 7 that get tied across the bar line). For the left-hand pattern in the first variation, Beethoven takes this "tie" idea and runs with it, tying the third note in each "triplet" to the first in the next, both within and across measures.

And then he does something really strange in the second half of the first variation: in m. 26, he breaks the LONG-short regularity in the right hand in such a way that confuses your ear (or my ear, at least) into feeling the rhythm "early" by one sixteenth, yet also in a way such that I'm not really sure if that's what's actually just happened. I feel disoriented until the downbeat of m. 29, where the B-D dyad in the right hand is unexpectedly sounded a third consecutive time, "regaining" ("reclaiming"?) that "lost" beat. That's when the reassuring LONG-short flow returns, and everything is normal again. There's something beautifully unsettling about those measures. I hear them as a glimpse of trouble in paradise, a sort of metrical high-wire act made all the more dramatic by a crescendo and some slithery chromaticism. This strange new something is retained and developed in the next two variations.

Incidentally, Beethoven does something quite similar in the first movement of Op. 101 during the transition from the exposition to the development: we "lose" a beat with the syncopation beginning at m. 29, and we "regain" it at m. 35, again with an unexpectedly reiterated dyad in the right hand. The overall effect is quite different here (gentle diatonic cadential gestures over a static tonic pedal, all at a steady piano), but the rhythmic technique is more or less the same. In both cases, if you're tapping your foot along, everything's copacetic once the process has finished. For that reason, I prefer recordings that maintain a steady tempo for those kinds of rhythmically "shifty" passages, which aren't terribly uncommon in Beethoven's oeuvre. There's a time and place for rubato, but it's elsewhere and elsewhen, methinks. Don't get me started on Pletnev's "Eroica"  ::)
These sorts of rhythmic shifts are indeed pretty common in Beethoven, but concentrated mostly in the later part of his output, I think. (There's also the whole phrasing of the scherzo of Op. 110 and a number of passages in Op. 127 and 135 that come to mind off the top of my head.) It's probably an oversimplification to say that the increased interest in this kind of rhythmic fluidity, both local and large-scale, and decreased interest in dramatic contrast and sonata form is the hallmark of the late style, since there are pieces like the Ninth Symphony that are practically throwbacks to "middle Beethoven" by that standard (and middle Beethoven pieces that are "ahead of their time" ;) ) but these kinds of rhythmic preoccupations do seem to become increasingly important right up to a piece like Op. 135 whose (not inconsiderable) appeal derives in large part from subtle shifts in rhythm, phrasing and periodicity. Or sometimes not very subtle. (That scherzo...) And then of course Schumann took these sort of rhythmic shifts to a whole new level but we're getting a bit far from Op. 111 now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 04, 2013, 04:59:24 PM
Quote from: amw on October 04, 2013, 03:51:16 PM
I wonder if to some extent it's pianists trying to make it sound not like jazz—i.e. they can't un-hear the swing rhythms in the music as written, so they overdot to make it sound more "classical".

This has crossed my mind, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 05, 2013, 10:01:46 AM
Thanks for the responses. That's given me a lot to listen for.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 05, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
Quote from: Todd on April 19, 2012, 11:08:10 AMOne of the newer complete cycles on the block, Jean Muller's live cycle, taken from concerts from 2007-2009, almost escaped my notice.  Almost.  Now, I admit I knew and know next to nothing about Mr Muller beyond what's on the web – a Luxembourgian born in 1979 who has taken lessons from Gerhard Oppitz, among others – but that really doesn't matter.  I really only wanted to know how his Beethoven sounded.

Belated thanks for this writeup. I'm just listening to Jean Muller's Chopin ballades on a label called Fondamenta, and the playing is pretty darn good. Interestingly, Fondamenta gives you the same recording on two different CDs: one for hi-fi systems and one for laptop and car speakers. I put the latter on my laptop while mopping the floors and was struck by the fact that the sound didn't blow, although it remains to be seen whether the lack of truly quiet playing is because they tinkered with the sound or because of Muller himself.

By the way, thanks all for the outbreak of fascinating discussion on Op. 111!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 01:36:35 PM

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00442OD2G.01.L.jpg)
L.v. Beethoven
Complete Piano Sonatas
Artur Schnabel
Musical Concepts (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442OD2G/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442OD2G/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442OD2G/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Never quite got over having given away my Dante-set, after initial disappointment with Schnabel's playing. (Pollini he ain't!) Now a London cat kindly got me this copy, which is said to be one of the better remasterings out there. Will go and inquire... hitherto I've found the Naxos remasterings to strike the best compromise between clean and depth. Very conveniently space-saving slim-box!  Not officially but de-facto available in the US (due to copyright issues). Liner notes extant but a touch skimpy... but then, at that price this box is sold, that's a hard quibble to maintain.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 05, 2013, 05:17:27 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 01:36:35 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00442OD2G.01.L.jpg)
L.v. Beethoven
Complete Piano Sonatas
Artur Schnabel
Musical Concepts (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442OD2G/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442OD2G/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442OD2G/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Never quite got over having given away my Dante-set, after initial disappointment with Schnabel's playing. (Pollini he ain't!) Now a London cat kindly got me this copy, which is said to be one of the better remasterings out there. Will go and inquire... hitherto I've found the Naxos remasterings to strike the best compromise between clean and depth. Very conveniently space-saving slim-box!  Not officially but de-facto available in the US (due to copyright issues). Liner notes extant but a touch skimpy... but then, at that price this box is sold, that's a hard quibble to maintain.

I fully agree about the Naxos series!

Those who wish to compare the above transfer of Schnabel's LvB sonatas to seven others can do so here:

http://www.mediafire.com/folder/lvppl6vj4omdj/Schnabel_Beethoven_Samples
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 05:35:21 PM
Quote from: George on October 05, 2013, 05:17:27 PM
I fully agree about the Naxos series!

Those who wish to compare the above transfer of Schnabel's LvB sonatas to seven others can do so here:

http://www.mediafire.com/folder/lvppl6vj4omdj/Schnabel_Beethoven_Samples

I haven't compared them side-by-side... do you have any experience with the Musical Concepts remastering?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 05, 2013, 07:26:04 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 05:35:21 PM
I haven't compared them side-by-side... do you have any experience with the Musical Concepts remastering?

Only via the clip above. The Naxos remain my favorite transfer for these performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 06, 2013, 07:02:25 PM
Quote from: amw on October 04, 2013, 03:51:16 PM
I wonder if to some extent it's pianists trying to make it sound not like jazz—i.e. they can't un-hear the swing rhythms in the music as written, so they overdot to make it sound more "classical".

Ironically, in the Baroque period and surviving into the Classical, the combination of dotted eighth-sixteenth against quarter-eighth often meant that the last notes were to be played together, that is as triplets. The finale of Brandenburg 2, written in 2/4 with both dotted eighth-sixteenths and eighth note triplets was really equivalent to a 6/8 gigue. I even wonder if this rhythmic convention applies to the opening movement of the Moonlight, but perhaps with the slow tempo is really is a dotted eighth-sixteenth pattern against triplets.

But as for 111, in an article on the sonatas, William Kinderman analyzed tempo variation in 15 recordings of the slow movement, and found that many followed Schnabel's example (even though Schnabel's edition belied his own practice) - that is, playing the theme notably slower the than first three variations. Or the first three variations faster than the theme. This means a theme lasting about 3 minutes in Schnabel's recording and the first three variations lasting about 2 minutes each. But Beethoven indicates no change in tempo within the movement, and the changes in meter - 3/8, 6/16, 12/32 - still reflect an underlying 3/8 pulse.

Of the 15 recordings, Kinderman finds only two that preserve a fairly steady pulse throughout: Rosen from 1974 and Badura-Skoda from 1973. This means in Rosen's case (B-S is faster overall) the slowest third variation of all, but also the fastest theme. But Beethoven specifically marks the third variation L'istesso tempo (the same speed), and even though the dynamic is now forte, there are no accents for at least the first four bars of the variation - the result being, if Beethoven's steady pulse is observed, a less frenetic, jazzy feeling than we often experience.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 06, 2013, 08:15:56 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 06, 2013, 07:02:25 PM
Ironically, in the Baroque period and surviving into the Classical, the combination of dotted eighth-sixteenth against quarter-eighth often meant that the last notes were to be played together, that is as triplets. The finale of Brandenburg 2, written in 2/4 with both dotted eighth-sixteenths and eighth note triplets was really equivalent to a 6/8 gigue. I even wonder if this rhythmic convention applies to the opening movement of the Moonlight, but perhaps with the slow tempo is really is a dotted eighth-sixteenth pattern against triplets.

Do you mean Brandenburg 5?

I am definitely not an expert on such historical notation, but I think the Moonlight would be a lot less interesting if those sixteenth notes were played as triplet eighths (aligned with the ostinato).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 07, 2013, 03:00:34 AM
Quote from: Pat B on October 06, 2013, 08:15:56 PM
Do you mean Brandenburg 5?

I am definitely not an expert on such historical notation, but I think the Moonlight would be a lot less interesting if those sixteenth notes were played as triplet eighths (aligned with the ostinato).

Of course you're right on B5. And I agree on the Moonlight; I have tried it the other way and it sounds banal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 07, 2013, 12:17:16 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 06, 2013, 07:02:25 PM
Ironically, in the Baroque period and surviving into the Classical, the combination of dotted eighth-sixteenth against quarter-eighth often meant that the last notes were to be played together, that is as triplets. The finale of Brandenburg 2, written in 2/4 with both dotted eighth-sixteenths and eighth note triplets was really equivalent to a 6/8 gigue. I even wonder if this rhythmic convention applies to the opening movement of the Moonlight, but perhaps with the slow tempo is really is a dotted eighth-sixteenth pattern against triplets.

But as for 111, in an article on the sonatas, William Kinderman analyzed tempo variation in 15 recordings of the slow movement, and found that many followed Schnabel's example (even though Schnabel's edition belied his own practice) - that is, playing the theme notably slower the than first three variations. Or the first three variations faster than the theme. This means a theme lasting about 3 minutes in Schnabel's recording and the first three variations lasting about 2 minutes each. But Beethoven indicates no change in tempo within the movement, and the changes in meter - 3/8, 6/16, 12/32 - still reflect an underlying 3/8 pulse.

Of the 15 recordings, Kinderman finds only two that preserve a fairly steady pulse throughout: Rosen from 1974 and Badura-Skoda from 1973. This means in Rosen's case (B-S is faster overall) the slowest third variation of all, but also the fastest theme. But Beethoven specifically marks the third variation L'istesso tempo (the same speed), and even though the dynamic is now forte, there are no accents for at least the first four bars of the variation - the result being, if Beethoven's steady pulse is observed, a less frenetic, jazzy feeling than we often experience.

Ah, this is relevant indeed -- thanks for bringing it up!

You're misremembering just a few details, though:

1. The article in question is actually a contribution by Robert Winter to a book edited by R. Larry Todd titled Nineteenth-Century Piano Music (Kinderman's chapter, "Beethoven," follows Winter's directly, which is undoubtedly the source of your confusion).

2. He compared 14 recordings (the "15th" is Schnabel's edition), and his conclusions aren't quite as you remember. I'll just quote him:

[Edit: I stand corrected on the number of recordings Winter compares—Schnabel's recording is the 15th, and Schnabel's edition is the "16th"]

Quote from: Robert Winter
   Schnabel’s interpretation—while highly charged—seems to be considerably at odds with Beethoven’s more serene directives. It is, moreover, strikingly at odds with Schnabel’s own 1949 edition (also shown in Table 2.1), where the tempo fluctuations are considerably narrower. But Schnabel’s recorded (and presumably live) performance has exercised a much greater influence than his edition. Consider the practice of speeding up in vars. 1 and 2; eleven of the fourteen performances do this. Or consider Schnabel’s treatment of var. 4 as two separate variations with their own tempos; ten of the performances do this. Or consider the accelerando starting at measure 131 and continuing throughout the reprise; ten of the performances do this. Or consider the great slowing in the coda; eleven performances do this. Performances such as Ashkenazy’s betray the direct and overriding influence of Schnabel. In caricatured imitations of Schnabel, like that of Barenboim, we can almost imagine Schnabel’s ghost wringing his hands. It seems to make no difference whether one plays on a period instrument or a modern piano.
   Only the performances of Edwin Fischer and, to a slightly lesser extent, of his pupil Paul Badura-Skoda even approach the tempo prescribed by Haslinger or Czerny. What is most noteworthy, however, is that—regardless of tempo—not a single one of these performances projects a unified pulse throughout. Even had Beethoven left no indications about the tempo relationships among variations, the idea ought to have occurred to someone as simply an experiment. In the performances by Jacob Lateiner, Charles Rosen, and Rudolf Buchbinder we get glimpses of the equilibrium that Beethoven may have in mind, and the effect, however temporary, is in each instance magical. In the end, however, the shared features of the tempo relationships in these performances are far more noteworthy than their differences.


And here is a link to his "Table 2.1" comparing the performances: http://books.google.com/books?id=rfESTJIEYaUC&pg=PA45
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 07, 2013, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 07, 2013, 12:17:16 PM
1. The article in question is actually a contribution by Robert Winter to a book edited by R. Larry Todd titled Nineteenth-Century Piano Music (Kinderman's chapter, "Beethoven," follows Winter's directly, which is undoubtedly the source of your confusion).

I will plead guilty to carelessness, but not to confusion. Winter is indeed the author, but it's perfectly legitimate to refer to his contribution as an article.

Quote from: aquariuswb on October 07, 2013, 12:17:16 PM
2. He compared 14 recordings (the "15th" is Schnabel's edition), and his conclusions aren't quite as you remember. I'll just quote him:
[Edit: I stand corrected on the number of recordings Winter compares—Schnabel's recording is the 15th, and Schnabel's edition is the "16th"]

Ahem.

Looking at that chart again, I see Fischer is another whose tempo scheme preserves B's sense of a steady pulse, and I should have acknowledged that. I was paying more attention to the chart than to Winter's commentary. I did however listen to Rosen on the drive to work this morning, and the relative calm of his 3rd variation is notable compared to Schnabel's and others I have heard (even though Rosen himself uses the word "jazzy" in talking about that variation in his book on the sonatas). I would very much like to hear Fischer.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 07, 2013, 01:13:16 PM
Inspired by this thread, I'm listening to Annie Fischer's performance right now (via Naxos Music Library). Her way with this variation is special and curiously human. What appeals to me is that you can sense she wants to play it more quickly: there's just an unscored tug, the slightest impulsive shift in each phrase, but she always reins it in. This seems clearest at the start, when at the start of every phrase she seems to say "calm down, Annie," and observe the music more strictly than before. Pretty great example of a "weakness" in a performance actually being a strength, at least to my ears, since I was delighted.

And yes, it is less "jazzy."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 07, 2013, 01:17:01 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 07, 2013, 01:13:16 PMInspired by this thread, I'm listening to Annie Fischer's performance right now (via Naxos Music Library).



Which performance? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 07, 2013, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 07, 2013, 01:17:01 PM


Which performance?
Whoops, Hungaroton ("big box"). Is the other one BBC live?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on October 07, 2013, 02:23:05 PM
The (artificially 'enhanced?') reverb on her first movement of op.111 is certainly bordering the ridiculous. Sounds like kids played sound-engineer.

Holy mackerel... this is not good at all. Sound goes in and out, damp and overly bright in turns... she's just bungled a fistful of notes in one fell swoop... and one wonders, if that's at all representative of the whole set. (Schnabel's 111 certainly isn't, lest his set be much less well regarded, too.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 07, 2013, 02:28:16 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 07, 2013, 01:42:29 PMWhoops, Hungaroton ("big box"). Is the other one BBC live?



EMI, from the 50s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 07, 2013, 02:33:02 PM
This one is in the shopping cart and about to drop, I think.

[asin]B00DWOBNAM[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 07, 2013, 02:47:24 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 07, 2013, 12:35:49 PM
I will plead guilty to carelessness, but not to confusion. Winter is indeed the author, but it's perfectly legitimate to refer to his contribution as an article.

I really meant "confusion" in the sense of "having mistaken something for something else" / "having mixed two things up," not in the sense of "having been bewildered." No condescension intended.

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 07, 2013, 12:35:49 PM
Ahem.

Looking at that chart again, I see Fischer is another whose tempo scheme preserves B's sense of a steady pulse, and I should have acknowledged that. I was paying more attention to the chart than to Winter's commentary. I did however listen to Rosen on the drive to work this morning, and the relative calm of his 3rd variation is notable compared to Schnabel's and others I have heard (even though Rosen himself uses the word "jazzy" in talking about that variation in his book on the sonatas). I would very much like to hear Fischer.

And now I'll plead guilty to carelessness—I was paying more attention to Winter's commentary than to his chart, and I see now that your comment was perfectly consistent with the latter.

Speaking of Kinderman, his recordings of the last 3 sonatas are much more interesting than Jed Distler would have us believe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on October 07, 2013, 02:58:15 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 07, 2013, 12:35:49 PM

Looking at that chart again, I see Fischer is another whose tempo scheme preserves B's sense of a steady pulse, and I should have acknowledged that. I was paying more attention to the chart than to Winter's commentary. I did however listen to Rosen on the drive to work this morning, and the relative calm of his 3rd variation is notable compared to Schnabel's and others I have heard (even though Rosen himself uses the word "jazzy" in talking about that variation in his book on the sonatas). I would very much like to hear Fischer.

It should be this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/fc78baFyMOs
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 07, 2013, 03:38:38 PM
Oh. Poop. I assumed it was Annie Fischer forgetting there was an Edwin. Well, her theme DID seem faster and variation #3 did seem slower...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 08, 2013, 09:23:44 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 07, 2013, 03:38:38 PM
Oh. Poop. I assumed it was Annie Fischer forgetting there was an Edwin. Well, her theme DID seem faster and variation #3 did seem slower...

But have you heard the Sam Fischer? He slows down to a crawl in #3, probably 'cause he don't play the piano too good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 08, 2013, 09:24:41 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 07, 2013, 02:47:24 PM
No condescension intended.

That's all right. You don't seem to be a revisionist, so I'll forgive you.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 13, 2013, 08:40:46 PM
Nobody hear mentions Robert Taub (except Todd last year).  I've listened to his HK and thought it a real powerhouse performance.  Man as a prodigious technique.  If anyone wants to investigate, I suggest that you buy the performance edition of his complete beethoven cycle.  There are two vols (Vol 1 and Vol 2).  They are listed under "books", not "music" in Amazon.  Each volume should cost you less than 10 pounds plus shipping.  I know, it sounds a bit strange, but it's a lot cheaper than buying the individual CDs under "music"
P.S. What happened to Robert Taub?  Doesn't seem to have recorded in years.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 14, 2013, 04:45:04 PM
Though I should warn that the sound of the Taub recordings is pretty harsh.  Don't think it does him any favours at all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 14, 2013, 05:55:15 PM
I posted this in the New Releases thread a couple of days ago, but it would have been better here.  So, to make up the omission, is notice that this is now available (at least on the eastern side of the Pond.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yAUyvxAhL._SY300__PJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 14, 2013, 06:13:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 14, 2013, 05:55:15 PM
I posted this in the New Releases thread a couple of days ago, but it would have been better here.  So, to make up the omission, is notice that this is now available (at least on the eastern side of the Pond.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yAUyvxAhL._SY300__PJ.jpg)



It's old news here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg731157.html#msg731157)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 14, 2013, 06:19:34 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 14, 2013, 06:13:55 PM


It's old news here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg731157.html#msg731157)

But now we can actually buy it (although I have yet to pull the trigger at Presto, at least until I'm sure the government, and therefore Customs, has gotten back to its usual level of inefficient functioning).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on October 18, 2013, 03:26:12 AM
Any opininons on this set? I've been listening to some sonatas on my car radio and rather liked it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f4srP4OrL._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on October 18, 2013, 03:28:28 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 18, 2013, 03:26:12 AM
Any opininons on this set? I've been listening to some sonatas on my car radio and rather liked it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f4srP4OrL._SY300_.jpg)

Here's Todd's thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18968.msg538896.html#msg538896)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on October 18, 2013, 03:32:23 AM
Quote from: North Star on October 18, 2013, 03:28:28 AM
Here's Todd's thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18968.msg538896.html#msg538896)

Thanks. Another nice and thoughtful review from our good neighbour Todd.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on October 18, 2013, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 18, 2013, 03:32:23 AM
Thanks. Another nice and thoughtful review from our good neighbour Todd.  :)
Yes indeed - and notice the last post!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 18, 2013, 07:12:56 AM
I've been listening to some late Arrau and just finished making my way through his 1980s LvB sonatas. Ultimately the 1960s set is the one to have, being complete and slightly sharper in terms of technique (but really not by much—Arrau in his 80s still had monster chops), but Arrau II is really really good.

Other sets I've listened to recently are Kovacevich, Lortie, Barenboim II, Brendel II, and Brautigam, and while I'd find it very difficult to rank them, I can definitely say that Arrau II would come out near the top if I did. He's slow, to be sure (his 1960s set is just as slow, though—I really don't think it's an age or loss-of-technique thing), but he's always interesting, always engaged. You never sense that he's on auto-pilot. He's a master of phrasing and articulation. Everything is so well-balanced. He'll accent a note just the right way when he wants to draw your attention to a middle voice. And I find that he has a wonderful sense of how long rests should be.

And the sound is *nice*. On some tracks the pianist's breathing is much too loud, and as is often the case you can sometimes hear his nails hitting the keys (and did he sometimes wear a watch when he played? at times I thought I noticed some jangling sound), but the tone of the piano on these recordings is lovely.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 18, 2013, 07:17:42 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 18, 2013, 07:12:56 AMI've been listening to some late Arrau and just finished making my way through his 1980s LvB sonatas.




Did you happen to acquire this one recently, and if so, may I inquire where?  (I'm keeping my fingers crossed, because that set is one I haven't been able to locate at a sane price.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 18, 2013, 07:32:32 AM
No, not any time recently. Sorry.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 18, 2013, 07:35:14 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 18, 2013, 07:32:32 AMNo, not any time recently. Sorry.



Damn.  I shall have to take solace in the seventy-four cycles I currently own then.  At least for the time being.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 18, 2013, 07:40:30 AM
Only 74?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 18, 2013, 07:57:26 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 18, 2013, 07:35:14 AM
Damn.  I shall have to take solace in the seventy-four cycles I currently own then.  At least for the time being.

Assuming those are complete (e.g., you're not counting Gilels), that's 2,368 sonatas right there! Well, 2,366, because HJ Lim.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 18, 2013, 08:05:55 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 18, 2013, 07:40:30 AMOnly 74?


I know, I have been remiss in my duties.



Quote from: Brian on October 18, 2013, 07:57:26 AMAssuming those are complete (e.g., you're not counting Gilels), that's 2,368 sonatas right there! Well, 2,366, because HJ Lim.


I include two incomplete cycles in my count (Gilels and Gieseking/Tahra) since they are close to complete.  I'm at the point now where it's almost easier to list the currently complete cycles I don't own than the ones I do own.  Below are the cycles I have yet to obtain, in rough order of interest.  If need be, I may obtain Riefling and PBS 1 on vinyl.


Robert Riefling
Paul Badura-Skoda 1 (Westminster)
Takahiro Sonoda 2 (expensive)
Claudio Arrau 2 (Philips, incomplete)
Walter Gieseking (EMI, incomplete)
Garrick Ohlsson (will wait for box)
Mari Kodama (will wait for box)
Michael Houstoun (got some on MP3; need the real deal)
Kazune Shimizu
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Peter Roesel
Robert Taub
Daniela Varinska
Shoko Sugitani
Malcolm Binns (is it complete?)
Michael Steinberg (gone forever?)
Robert Benz (gone forever?)
Gotthard Kladetzky (gone forever?)
Malcolm Bilson, et al (not too interested in many pianists for a cycle)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on October 18, 2013, 10:19:39 AM
Todd--you should get Igor Tchetuev's cycle ( through 6 volumes so far) on Caro Mitis--wonderful player, fabulous sound. I'd be interested in your opinion. I'm listening to el-Bacha's set now, which I picked up very cheaply in Paris recently--quite good so far, very middle of the road.....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 18, 2013, 10:23:21 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 18, 2013, 08:05:55 AM

Garrick Ohlsson (will wait for box)


Do we know if a box is forthcoming? Ohlsson's set is high on my wish list of complete cycles because I saw him play Opp. 109, 110, and 111 several years back and was quite taken with his playing.

I'm also eager to hear Angela Hewitt's cycle, but I think I'll hold off until she completes it. I enjoy her Bach and Ravel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:37:45 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 18, 2013, 08:05:55 AM

I know, I have been remiss in my duties.




I include two incomplete cycles in my count (Gilels and Gieseking/Tahra) since they are close to complete.  I'm at the point now where it's almost easier to list the currently complete cycles I don't own than the ones I do own.  Below are the cycles I have yet to obtain, in rough order of interest.  If need be, I may obtain Riefling and PBS 1 on vinyl.


Robert Riefling
Paul Badura-Skoda 1 (Westminster)
Takahiro Sonoda 2 (expensive)
Claudio Arrau 2 (Philips, incomplete)
Walter Gieseking (EMI, incomplete)
Garrick Ohlsson (will wait for box)
Mari Kodama (will wait for box)
Michael Houstoun (got some on MP3; need the real deal)
Kazune Shimizu
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Peter Roesel
Robert Taub
Daniela Varinska
Shoko Sugitani
Malcolm Binns (is it complete?)
Michael Steinberg (gone forever?)
Robert Benz (gone forever?)
Gotthard Kladetzky (gone forever?)
Malcolm Bilson, et al (not too interested in many pianists for a cycle)

I didn't know that Badura Skoda's Westminster was complete. I have just three sonatas.

Arrau 1960s Philips is Arrau 2 really. Arrau 1 is the incomplete one from EMI, which many (most?) people prefer above all his Beethoven recordings (not me). The late recordings which appreared as Arrau Heritage is Arrau 3. I didn't know (had forgotten?) that that late cycle was incomplete.

I have all the Arraus, and the Tatiana Nikolayeva. I honestly don't think you're missing much by not having the Arrau 3.  I've only dipped into the Nikolayeva, but I thought it was terribly disappointing. Her Op106 is possibly the worst Beethoven record I've ever heard. Arrau 3 isn't ever as spontaneous as Arrau 2 (1960s Philips)  can sometimes be. You didn't like Arrau 2 much though, did you?

I also have all the Gieseking EMI. Recommended, despite some low points there were some memorable high points. I got it after you put me on to that wonderful op 110.  I must revisit that one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2013, 10:49:36 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 18, 2013, 10:23:21 AMI'm also eager to hear Angela Hewitt's cycle, but I think I'll hold off until she completes it. I enjoy her Bach and Ravel.

The next installment (the 4th) is to be released in December.  I have the previous volumes, so it is too late for me to wait for the box. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2013, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:37:45 AMArrau 1960s Philips is Arrau 2 really. Arrau 1 is the incomplete one from EMI, which many (most?) people prefer above all his Beethoven recordings (not me). The late recordings which appreared as Arrau Heritage is Arrau 3. I didn't know (had forgotten?) that that late cycle was incomplete.

I don't think it is reasonable to refer to scattered recordings of ~10 of the 32 sonatas made over 15 years a "cycle."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 18, 2013, 10:55:42 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on October 18, 2013, 10:19:39 AMTodd--you should get Igor Tchetuev's cycle ( through 6 volumes so far) on Caro Mitis


I've read uniformly good things here and elsewhere on Tchetuev.  I'll probably wait to see if a cycle comes out before buying.


Quote from: aquariuswb on October 18, 2013, 10:23:21 AMDo we know if a box is forthcoming?


I don't know for certain, but I have to think one will be issued at some point, though not at bargain price.


Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:37:45 AMYou didn't like Arrau 2 much though, did you?


I very much enjoy it, putting it in my 'second tier' – ie, not top ten, but still well above average.  (After I'm done with my current three cycle binge, I may prep a list.)  How many sonatas did Arrau record on EMI?  My understanding is that it was less than half, which wouldn't be a cycle for me.  I don't have hard and fast rules, but it should certainly be well over half before considering it a cycle or set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2013, 10:59:50 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 18, 2013, 10:55:42 AMI very much enjoy it, putting it in my 'second tier' – ie, not top ten, but still well above average.  (After I'm done with my current three cycle binge, I may prep a list.)  How many sonatas did Arrau record on EMI?  My understanding is that it was less than half, which wouldn't be a cycle for me.  I don't have hard and fast rules, but it should certainly be well over half before considering it a cycle or set.

By my reckoning, 7 (twice), 14, 18, 21 (twice), 22, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32.  For Decca he did 8 and 29, and re-recorded several of the ones he did for EMI.

The Arrau recording I really want to get my hands on is his EMI recording of Debussy's pour le piano, recorded March 29, 1949 (Référence Columbia U.S 78 tours 72886-88D) which I have on a beat-up Columbia 7" 33 1/3 rpm vinyl disc that I paid 50 cents for.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Debussy-Pour-Le-Piano-Estampes-Claudio-Arrau-Columbia-ML-2086-10-LP-/00/s/MTU3NVgxNjAw/$T2eC16R,!y8E9s2fjKbbBP7kC-pdi!~~60_35.JPG)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 18, 2013, 11:13:13 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2013, 10:59:50 AMBy my reckoning, 7 (twice), 14, 18, 21 (twice), 22, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32.  For Decca he did 8 and 29, and re-recorded several of the ones he did for EMI.


That's definitely not a cycle.  I don't count the 18 sonata set by Richter I just picked up as a cycle, so even fewer just doesn't seem right to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2013, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 18, 2013, 11:13:13 AM
That's definitely not a cycle.  I don't count the 18 sonata set by Richter I just picked up as a cycle, so even fewer just doesn't seem right to me.

Personally, calling a group of recordings a "cycle" implies that there was a conscious intention to produce a complete set of recordings in some genre.  Even if by some miracle Pollini manages to record all of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas before he kicks it, I would hesitate to call it a "cycle" (although I suppose I would be in the minority).
 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2013, 10:51:16 AM
I don't think it is reasonable to refer to scattered recordings of ~10 of the 32 sonatas made over 15 years a "cycle."

OK It's probably right, what you say.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on October 18, 2013, 11:33:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:37:45 AM
I didn't know that Badura Skoda's Westminster was complete. I have just three sonatas.

Arrau 1960s Philips is Arrau 2 really. Arrau 1 is the incomplete one from EMI, which many (most?) people prefer above all his Beethoven recordings (not me). The late recordings which appreared as Arrau Heritage is Arrau 3. I didn't know (had forgotten?) that that late cycle was incomplete.

I have all the Arraus, and the Tatiana Nikolayeva. I honestly don't think you're missing much by not having the Arrau 3.  I've only dipped into the Nikolayeva, but I thought it was terribly disappointing. Her Op106 is possibly the worst Beethoven record I've ever heard. Arrau 3 isn't ever as spontaneous as Arrau 2 (1960s Philips)  can sometimes be. You didn't like Arrau 2 much though, did you?

I also have all the Gieseking EMI. Recommended, despite some low points there were some memorable high points. I got it after you put me on to that wonderful op 110.  I must revisit that one.

I find it difficult to chose between Arrau 2 and 3. Yes, Arrau 2 seems more spontaneous, but Arrau 3 has got an air of an old mans wisdom, which I find very gripping.

Tatiana Nicolayeva´s live set is dispensable. There are so many lapses of memory, which completely spoil the musical statement.

Gieseking´s playing is in both sets often so depressing earthbound, that I wonder, Why I acquired them both. CDCDCD I suppose.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 18, 2013, 11:33:22 AM
I find it difficult to chose between Arrau 2 and 3. Yes, Arrau 2 seems more spontaneous, but Arrau 3 has got an air of an old mans wisdom, which I find very gripping.

Tatiana Nicolayeva´s live set is dispensable. There are so many lapses of memory, which completely spoil the musical statement.

Gieseking´s playing is in both sets often so depressing earthbound, that I wonder, Why I acquired them both. CDCDCD I suppose.

Let me know where you  hear this wisdom in the last Arrau set and I'll relisten. I'm trying to find my notes on the Gieseking EMI, with no success. I remember there were about 4 sonatas which I thought had somethings special about them. I've never really explored the earlier cycle.

By the way, this came in the post yesterday. So far I've just listened to the first two  op 2s, I thought Op 2/2 was pretty special.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FyoXnkuPbOs/UdFL2D9BimI/AAAAAAAAGhk/PV4TTZkqoSs/s500/Beethoven_Sonatas_Kempff_Japana_1961_jflaurson.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 18, 2013, 12:19:14 PM
"Complete cycle" = all 32

"Incomplete cycle" = no more than 5 sonatas are missing, since that gets us Gilels :)

"Partial cycle" = more than 5 are missing, but at least half are present (Gould, Solomon, Hungerford, Serkin)

I'd say that at least one of the following conditions must be met for "cycle" status:

1. The pianist conceived of the project as a cycle on some level
2. The recordings were all made within a reasonable span of time (say, 10 or 15 years).


What say yous?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 18, 2013, 12:22:10 PM
Pollini qualifies as a cycle ("incomplete," soon to be "complete") by Condition #1.

Arrau's pre-1960s recordings don't qualify as a cycle because fewer than half of the sonatas are present.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 18, 2013, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 18, 2013, 12:19:14 PM
1. The pianist conceived of the project as a cycle on some level
2. The recordings were all made within a reasonable span of time (say, 10 or 15 years).


The intention seems clear enough, but the timeline seems arbitrary.  Louis Lortie clearly intended to record the cycle, but it took more than 15 years (I think).  Pollini will probably complete the cycle, and it seems difficult to think that if he does it will be coincidental.  Who cares if it took 40 years?


EDIT: I saw that you went with one condition, not both.  We're on the same page.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 18, 2013, 01:21:07 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 18, 2013, 12:19:14 PM
What say yous?
I say you misspelled "y'all" ;)

Also I like your criteria.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on October 18, 2013, 10:09:55 PM
Can something become intended as a cycle partway through?

I'm recalling Rachmaninov, who after he'd written a bunch of preludes noticed that they were all in different keys, and decided to write another set of preludes to fill in the gaps and make 24.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 19, 2013, 08:01:39 AM
Quote from: orfeo on October 18, 2013, 10:09:55 PM
Can something become intended as a cycle partway through?

I'm recalling Rachmaninov, who after he'd written a bunch of preludes noticed that they were all in different keys, and decided to write another set of preludes to fill in the gaps and make 24.

We were really talking about recorded cycles of a corpus, and in that context my answer to your question would be yes (covered by the lenient "on some level" qualifier in Condition 1). So Pollini's recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas qualify even though he probably had no intention of recording a cycle when he first recorded the late sonatas way back when.

About a composed cycle, I'd still answer yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on October 20, 2013, 07:27:35 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 11:52:10 AM
Let me know where you  hear this wisdom in the last Arrau set and I'll relisten. I'm trying to find my notes on the Gieseking EMI, with no success. I remember there were about 4 sonatas which I thought had somethings special about them. I've never really explored the earlier cycle.

By the way, this came in the post yesterday. So far I've just listened to the first two  op 2s, I thought Op 2/2 was pretty special.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FyoXnkuPbOs/UdFL2D9BimI/AAAAAAAAGhk/PV4TTZkqoSs/s500/Beethoven_Sonatas_Kempff_Japana_1961_jflaurson.jpg)

Where did you land this beauty?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: Bogey on October 20, 2013, 07:27:35 PM
Where did you land this beauty?

hmv.jp
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on October 22, 2013, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
hmv.jp

Link?  and of course, thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on October 23, 2013, 10:16:36 PM
Beginning to dig into the Korstick cycle and I really really like it.


Also, last week driving in the Arizona desert, I listened to Yudina's Hammerklavier. I am surprised at how sensitive the playing was. I was expecting lots of hammering. She did more hammering in Goldberg than she did here! Again, a wonderful performance. She is never boring. Just when you think you know her, she surprises you.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 29, 2013, 04:30:50 PM
Listened to this CD earlier today.  Todd was, if anything,  too positive about it.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yAUyvxAhL._AA160_.jpg)

Dear Maestro:
I would greatly appreciate your assistance in obtaining a refund for the money I paid for your new Beethoven CD.  It was quite a disappointment.  Are you Maurizio the Mechanical?  Pollini the Plodding?  No life in the first three sonatas on the CD, and barely any in the fourth (op. 22). I am forced to conclude that you recorded this only out of contractual obligation or the feeling that you had to get around to concluding the cycle.  If so,  please refrain from recording the remaining sonatas and leave us the consolation of imagining what you might have done with them, instead of what is on this recording.  I never expected a musician of your caliber to reduce Beethoven to drudge work, but that is what I heard on this CD.

I am severely disappointed in you. 

Yours truly


Jeffrey Smith
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 29, 2013, 05:08:10 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 29, 2013, 04:30:50 PMIt was quite a disappointment.



Gave it a second listen today, and it is easily the worst LvB that Pollini has recorded, and it's probably his worst disc ever.  At least his earlier recordings are still around.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 29, 2013, 05:22:53 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 29, 2013, 05:18:32 PM
Another listener weighs in with an alternative view, "The sonatas aren't among the most familiar, but Pollini is in great form, and the sound is first-rate"  Sante Fe Listener.

;D

Well, the sonics are good.  Which perhaps is unfortunate, since you can't blame them for the bad result.  I only recall having this bad a reaction on first listen to one other recording--Abbado's VPO recording of the Mahler Second.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 29, 2013, 05:31:22 PM
I haven't been wowed by Pollini's Beethoven since his live Waldstein and prior to that, his late sonatas. So the poor reviews don't really surprise me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on October 30, 2013, 02:15:07 AM
I have a CD-R with Op 22, 26/1 and 53. It's obviously different to this CD so was it recorded in a studio earlier or is it, as George suggested, live? I have no program notes for this CD-R
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 30, 2013, 06:58:48 AM
Quote from: Holden on October 30, 2013, 02:15:07 AM
I have a CD-R with Op 22, 26/1 and 53. It's obviously different to this CD so was it recorded in a studio earlier or is it, as George suggested, live? I have no program notes for this CD-R

Probably this live disc, which is very good IMO:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515KovZM9bL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Nos-Opp/dp/B00000613M)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 30, 2013, 07:20:08 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on October 30, 2013, 06:58:48 AM
Probably this live disc, which is very good IMO:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515KovZM9bL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Nos-Opp/dp/B00000613M)


That would have to the one.  It's probably his best LvB disc after the late sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2013, 08:29:53 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 29, 2013, 05:08:10 PM


Gave it a second listen today, and it is easily the worst LvB that Pollini has recorded, and it's probably his worst disc ever.  At least his earlier recordings are still around.


He sounds angry:  intense, tough and angry. I thought the same of his op2s, that's what he sees the music as being about I guess - anger, hardness.

So basically I'm not really surprised by this new CD.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 30, 2013, 08:33:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2013, 08:29:53 AMHe sounds angry, intense, tough and angry. I thought the same of his op2s, that's what he sees the music as being about I guess - anger, hardness.



I didn't really hear anger so much as pile driving playing in Op 2, but if his Op 2 was angry, then this disc is characterized by murderous rage.  It makes Kovacevich's early LvB sound positively mellifluous.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2013, 08:40:19 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 30, 2013, 08:33:10 AM


I didn't really hear anger so much as pile driving playing in Op 2, but if his Op 2 was angry, then this disc is characterized by murderous rage.  It makes Kovacevich's early LvB sound positively mellifluous.

LOL.

A similar thing came up here with a Bach organist, Gerhard Weinberger - I thought of him when I heard the Pollini. And there's a Schumannist called Franz Verraber who also came to mind.  So I find this discussion quite interesting.

Avoid Verraber and Weinberger if you can't enjoy something in the Pollini.

One comment I don't think I agree with is Jeffrey Smith's that it's drudge work. I think it's probably inspired, bold in fact.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 30, 2013, 07:11:59 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2013, 08:40:19 AM
LOL.

A similar thing came up here with a Bach organist, Gerhard Weinberger - I thought of him when I heard the Pollini. And there's a Schumannist called Franz Verraber who also came to mind.  So I find this discussion quite interesting.

Avoid Verraber and Weinberger if you can't enjoy something in the Pollini.

One comment I don't think I agree with is Jeffrey Smith's that it's drudge work. I think it's probably inspired, bold in fact.

You're talking about the new CD or the performance Holden has?  If it's the new recording--well,  bold and inspiring are not the words I would use to describe it, although the Op. 22 is the only sonata of the four which shows some life in the pianist.   An automaton could have produced an equal result in the other three. 

Mind you,  I generally like Pollini, including the early sonatas he released a few years back that included the angry/pile driving Op. 2 (although to my recollection, neither term really applied to that recording).   But mechanical, plodding, drudge work seem to be the most appropriate descriptors of this performance.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2013, 10:15:51 AM
Getting this disc wasn't a high priority, but since the disapprovers have ratcheted up their disapproval to a hysterical pitch on this one, I think it is something I must hear.  :)

If I'm overreacting,  it's not from disapproval but from disappointment.  Pollini could have been, should have been,  much better in this record.  What we have instead is something on the level of a student recital where the chief aim of the pianist is reduced to getting the notes correct--but at least with the student we could envision the pianist growing and maturing into the music.  Pollini, OTOH, has obviously grown and matured,  but he can only present us with this?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on October 31, 2013, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 30, 2013, 07:20:08 AM

That would have to the one.  It's probably his best LvB disc after the late sonatas.

I quite agree. Tremendous disc. His Beethoven went downhill from here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on October 31, 2013, 01:15:15 AM
I see on amazon that sony are about to issue a remastered ogdon hammer
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 01:29:34 AM
Re Pollini, I have a theory about his later style, in Beethoven and in Chopin in fact.  I think he as an idea for the meaning of the music, often a hard one, to do with anger, toughness. And then every phrase, every second of the performance, is made to serve this idea. I think you hear this in op  2/3, some of the stuff on the new CD. And in the nocturne op 48/i on DG.

So the music becomes very focussed, focussed on something tough and nasty (that's fine, and it also explains why he's developed such a hard tone.) But it also becomes undifferentiated emotionally. Moments of energy and intensity and agression aren't contrasted with more relaxed, lyrical passages.

To some extent I'm saying that his way of playing is too simple. I wonder if the same applies to Gerhard Weinberger, in (for example) the Ricercar from Opfer and the Passacaglia.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2013, 06:04:17 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2013, 08:39:22 PMHe has performed these pieces many times in his career


How do you know that?  While it's certainly possible that Pollini has played Op 7, for instance, many times in concert, it's also possible he has not.  I'd bet it's not among his most played works.  Do you have access to some type of performance history of Pollini, or are you just making things up?

Pollini is one of the greatest pianists in recorded history, and his Beethoven is generally excellent, and of course his late sonatas are among the best on record.  That doesn't mean this disc is good.  It is not.  The only thing that prevents me from stating that it's his worst disc is that I haven't heard his first Brahms concerto set or his Mozart with Bohm.  I'd be quite surprised if they were as bad. 

It's hard not to notice that Pollini's last few recordings have not been anywhere near as good as his earlier work. I've eagerly snapped up every Pollini recording upon release for years, and he's just not what he once was.  He's maintained better technique than even Richter did, but that doesn't change the quality of his recordings.  Of course, that's my take, but it's also the take of other people. 

By all means, buy and listen, but your posts, including such thoughtful words as 'prattling', indicate that you are most certainly inclined to listen with a prejudiced ear.  You can attempt to delude yourself to the contrary, I suppose.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 31, 2013, 06:24:16 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 31, 2013, 06:04:17 AM
It's hard not to notice that Pollini's last few recordings have not been anywhere near as good as his earlier work.

I liked the recent Chopin Sonata No. 2 CD; don't know if that falls in your "decline" category. Of course, it was only my third or fourth Pollini album.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2013, 06:58:12 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 31, 2013, 06:34:00 AMPollini has played complete Beethoven sonata cycles in concert on numerous occasions



Well, what is the number?  Bland claims of "numerous" are too vague to have any meaning.  And did he perform all of the sonatas simply to be part of a cycle and sell tickets, or because he likes or loves each sonata and wanted to make a statement about each work?  I assume that all pianists who perform and record complete cycles of LvB, Mozart, and so on, do so for reasons other than a deep love and appreciation for each individual work, and that is one of the reasons for the variable quality of complete cycles.  That assumption may be incorrect.  And Pollini may be different.  Or he may not.  Do you have any specific knowledge in this area?

As to technical capacity, Pollini certainly does have chops still, though he doesn't sound as secure as in his 70s recordings.  Ultimately, though, technique isn't everything.  Player pianos are note perfect every time, after all, but who likes listening to them except in Nancarrow?



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:10:39 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 31, 2013, 06:24:16 AMI liked the recent Chopin Sonata No. 2 CD; don't know if that falls in your "decline" category.



Pollini has had some hits and misses all along.  (Does anyone consider his Debussy to be among the best?)  His late Schumann recordings and LvB Op 10 from about a decade ago were the last discs that were really outstanding for me.  His Op 2 is good, and certainly better than some, but relative to his late sonatas or his live disc, it's just not as inspired or inspiring.  This new LvB and his last new Chopin disc were both outright disappointments. 

And though I don't own it, Pollini apparently selected some Chopin recordings for a release a few years ago.  He chose mostly his 70s recordings. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 31, 2013, 07:22:54 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 31, 2013, 06:34:00 AMWhat is it to me that Pollini isn't to your taste?  I know with certainty that Pollini is to my taste.
I thought the point was that Pollini is to Todd's taste, very much so, and yet he still finds the last couple albums disappointing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 31, 2013, 07:17:36 AMI admire the fact that Pollini uses that technique to perform a piece with clarity and with uncompromising adherence to what he regards as the intent of the composer.




That is unquestionably what makes Pollini's best recordings so special.  His 70s recordings of just about everything are among the best.  (Has anyone surpassed, or can anyone surpass, his Wanderer Fantasie, for instance?)  All they way up until about a decade ago, he routinely put out top notch stuff, and since he has still put out some good discs (his Bach, say), but I cannot avoid saying that he is past his prime. 

While my opinion matters not a whit to Mr Pollini - nor should it - I don't want to see him end up releasing recordings like Richter's late LvB on Philips, where the lapses and errors and lack of depth are so pronounced.  He's not there yet, but it's not 1977, either.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:28:48 AM
In the case of one of them, op 22, we have the 1997 record to compare with the new one. The latter seems much more edgy throughout, even in the adagio. He's making a statment by putting out his latest thoughts about op22. He's inviting comparison. 

Anyway, I do find the later recording has a force of nature like quality, the big outburst in the adagio of the 1997 is a pussy cat compared to the 2013, which is more like a roaring tiger, an earthquake, or something.

The 1997 is probably better by piano teachers' standards, all due respect to piano teachers. Some concert goers will prefer the 1997 I expect, because it's less intrusive, an easier, lighter,  less challenging, more sensual, more beautiful listen. Fair enough?

I find the earlier one a bit dull, the latter one bold and exciting, and I'm interested that he's decided to do this.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:31:15 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:25:55 AM

Richter's late LvB on Philips, where the lapses and errors and lack of depth are so pronounced.  He's not there yet, but it's not 1977, either.

Maybe you could say a bit more about the lack of depth there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:33:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:28:48 AMThe 1997 is probably better by piano teachers standards, all due respect to piano teachers. Some concert goers will prefer the 1997 I expect, because it's less intrusive, an easier, lighter,  less challenging, more sensual, more beautiful listen. Fair enough?



An intense Op 22 seems to miss the point.  Still, it's better than the pulverizing Op 7.  What a contrast Kempff '61 offered when I listened to it a couple days later.  Certainly, his technique doesn't match Pollini's, but the music sounds better.  (I'm only about a third of the way through the Kempff right now.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:31:15 AMMaybe you could say a bit more about the lack of depth there.



It's been a while since I last listened, but in addition to the slips, Richter often doesn't seem to be his usual transcendent self.  Some of the playing seems, well, rudderless.  I just get the sense of a pianist just playing the notes as he remembers them.  There are still some great moments, but end of career Richter was not very good.  I wonder if he approved the release, and if so, why.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:38:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:33:14 AM


An intense Op 22 seems to miss the point.  Still, it's better than the pulverizing Op 7.  What a contrast Kempff '61 offered when I listened to it a couple days later.  Certainly, his technique doesn't match Pollini's, but the music sounds better.  (I'm only about a third of the way through the Kempff right now.)

I had a similar experience with the Kempff. I still haven't gone back to Pommier - which you put me on to in fact, so thank you.

Anyway, I always like the idea of a pianist doing something like this, something which defies expectations about how to play the music. That's one of the great stimulating things about collecting different versions - you can ask yourself, "why the hell has he done that?"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:40:46 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:37:13 AM


It's been a while since I last listened, but in addition to the slips, Richter often doesn't seem to be his usual transcendent self.  Some of the playing seems, well, rudderless.  I just get the sense of a pianist just playing the notes as he remembers them.  There are still some great moments, but end of career Richter was not very good.  I wonder if he approved the release, and if so, why.

It's ages since I listened too, but I remember being really impressed by op110. He's not as virtuosic as in Leipzig, but there's sense of him being determined to get to the very bottom of the music, a sense of probing. I may not feel the same now of course.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:42:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:38:01 AMI still haven't gone back to Pommier



I'll have to revisit that again soon.  I haven't listened to his cycle in a while, but his Op 22 is something.  For whatever reason, French pianists seem to excel in this work, right down to today.  I eagerly await Bavouzet in this work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on October 31, 2013, 09:31:54 AM
Well, I saw Pollini live at the Salle Pleyel two years ago playing Beethoven--including the Waldstein and Appassionata, and he was superb. That concert and a recent Andras Schiff playing the Goldbergs are two live recital highlights....I think Pollini still has it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 31, 2013, 11:28:03 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 31, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
(Has anyone surpassed, or can anyone surpass, his Wanderer Fantasie, for instance?) 

I'll have to throw out "surpasses" as I haven't heard every single Wanderer performance out there but when it comes to "equalling" (at the very least) I'd unhesitatingly say Katchen.




(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K1X87KBVL.jpg)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on October 31, 2013, 12:21:32 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 31, 2013, 07:35:53 AM
Not having heard the last few releases, I cannot comment on those specifically.  But my own impression is that Pollini's performances have became richer with time, and I tend to have more difficulties with the earlier recordings, such as the Polonaises and the Etudes of Chopin.  One of my fondest hopes is that Pollini will release new recordings of the late Sonatas (live or studio).

I haven't heard Pollini's new Beethoven disc and I'm not anxious to do so; that's only because I'm not into Beethoven these days.  However, I greatly enjoyed his Bach WTC I and would snap up Bk. 2 if he ever records it.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on October 31, 2013, 02:03:53 PM
All this talk about Pollini's Beethoven got me in the mood for some. Just finished listening to this cd:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51karQq04VL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

His Tempest is still one of my favourite things he's done, and one of my favourite performances of that particular piece.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on October 31, 2013, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 07:38:01 AM
Anyway, I always like the idea of a pianist doing something like this, something which defies expectations about how to play the music. That's one of the great stimulating things about collecting different versions - you can ask yourself, "why the hell has he done that?"

Logically, though, if you take that theory to its natural conclusion you get to the point where a pianist is defying the composer's expectations about how to play the music, leading the composer, if still around to hear it, asking "why the hell have you done that?"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 31, 2013, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2013, 01:29:34 AM
Re Pollini, I have a theory about his later style, in Beethoven and in Chopin in fact.  I think he as an idea for the meaning of the music, often a hard one, to do with anger, toughness. And then every phrase, every second of the performance, is made to serve this idea. I think you hear this in op  2/3, some of the stuff on the new CD. And in the nocturne op 48/i on DG.

So the music becomes very focussed, focussed on something tough and nasty (that's fine, and it also explains why he's developed such a hard tone.) But it also becomes undifferentiated emotionally. Moments of energy and intensity and agression aren't contrasted with more relaxed, lyrical passages.

To some extent I'm saying that his way of playing is too simple. I wonder if the same applies to Gerhard Weinberger, in (for example) the Ricercar from Opfer and the Passacaglia.

I don't totally agree with you,  but I can relate what you're saying to what I've heard, and your theory may be correct--only the emotion remains so undifferentiated that the anger and toughness you posit don't come through to me.  It became merely mechanical.

At this stage I'm not sure whether I would want him to record WTC II.  It's a perfectly logical thing to do, and I'd get it to hear what he does with it--but I'm afraid he'll carry through to Bach what he's doing here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 07, 2013, 12:01:07 AM
Been listening to Richter Haaser (on EMI) and was expecting that, with a name like that he would be a stodgy german note manufacturer, but he has real temperament and a big technique.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 18, 2013, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 18, 2013, 11:33:22 AM
I find it difficult to chose between Arrau 2 and 3. Yes, Arrau 2 seems more spontaneous, but Arrau 3 has got an air of an old mans wisdom, which I find very gripping.

One place where I agree about Arrau 3  is in op 10/3/i. If I had time I'd like to listen to more of the digital set in fast movements like this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 18, 2013, 12:38:53 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 18, 2013, 11:33:22 AM
I find it difficult to chose between Arrau 2 and 3. Yes, Arrau 2 seems more spontaneous, but Arrau 3 has got an air of an old mans wisdom, which I find very gripping.

IIRC, you prefer Arrau 1 (Incomplete, EMI) over 2 and 3, right?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on November 19, 2013, 02:36:27 AM
Quote from: George on November 18, 2013, 12:38:53 PM
IIRC, you prefer Arrau 1 (Incomplete, EMI) over 2 and 3, right?

Yes, but the question was Arrau 2 versus Arrau 3.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 19, 2013, 03:33:53 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 19, 2013, 02:36:27 AM
Yes, but the question was Arrau 2 versus Arrau 3.

Ok, just wanted to make sure I had that right.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 19, 2013, 07:50:10 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 19, 2013, 02:36:27 AM
Yes, but the question was Arrau 2 versus Arrau 3.

Yes I like the EMIs, with the exception maybe of the Waldstein, where I think Arrau2 is very fine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2013, 03:03:27 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pILWfBURL._SY300_.jpg)

Listened to Igor Levit's first foray into Beethoven, and I found it rewarding.  Attractive sound, solid technique, and intelligent interpretations that are very much a young man's take on Beethoven.  Op 101 and especially Op 106 fare comparatively better than the last three sonatas.  In all five cases there are at least a dozen recordings I could cite that I find better, but he's young and shows much promise – much more than HJ Lim, for instance.  I look forward to hearing more from him, especially if it means a new LvB cycle will result.  I have a sneaking suspicion that he would be awesome in Rachmaninoff, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 14, 2013, 03:15:13 AM
Quote from: Fred on July 22, 2013, 11:28:31 PM
I notice that IGOR LEVIT is about to put out a 2CD late Beethoven Sonatas on Sony.  Available in a few weeks.

It's on Spotify now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 22, 2013, 05:53:22 PM
A new cycle I'm anxious to hear starts rolling out in the new year.  From Paavali Jumppanen's management firm: (http://www.artsmg.com/Piano/PaavaliJumppanen/)

In recent years, Mr. Jumppanen has dedicated much of his time into exploring music of the Viennese Classical Period. He has often performed the complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas cycle and, following one of his Beethoven recitals, the Boston Globe reported how "the sheer, overflowing energy of his musicianship held one's attention throughout this impressive performance and the result was a bracing and enjoyable reminder of how path-breaking Beethoven's music was." Mr. Jumppanen has recently completed a multi-year project of recording the Sonatas cycle. The first part of the recording will be released in March 2014 (Ondine).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 10, 2014, 07:28:59 PM
Huh. I'm listening to short sample clips from the new Jonathan Biss volume, containing 15, 16, and 21, and it seems to be very speedy indeed, especially the Pastorale.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Purusha on January 12, 2014, 05:13:25 PM
I was wondering if anybody knew anything about the set by Peter Rosel? I have his Brahms, which i found to be very impressive, and considering his style i would think his Beethoven would have to be as equally impressive (or so i hope). Alas, it seems the entire set is out of print. I can't even find decent samples. Anybody knows if this is worth pursuing, perhaps keeping an eye for a reissue?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 12, 2014, 05:29:33 PM
Rosel's set is on King Records International, which is Japanese.  HMV Japan lists all of the LvB (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/search/music/adv_1/category_1/genre_Classical_700/keyword_rosel/target_CLASSIC/type_sr/), plus quite a few other things recorded by Rosel as available.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Purusha on January 13, 2014, 07:35:01 AM
No samples, but its good to know the set is available somewhere. Here's what his Brahms sounds like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8eotstXIWA

It is almost perfect on a technical level, and i also like out he brings out all the little vertical details. Alas, it lacks a bit in Romanticism, but this is why i want to hear his Beethoven (early and middle Beethoven in particular) since this approach is probably better suited for a classical composer. To wit, his Mozart sounds very good as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrdsMzyL728

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 13, 2014, 07:51:35 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 13, 2014, 07:45:14 AM
Where did you find samples? 

While looking for Biss's next edition (found it; available Jan. 14th) I also noticed that Angela Hewitt has recorded four volumes of Beethoven sonatas.  News to me.  No samples, though.  Anyone heard 'em?
There are 60-second samples of the Biss at Presto (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Onyx/ONYX4115#listen) and samples of all Hewitt's volumes (and indeed any Hyperion CD!) at Hyperion's website, for example this album (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67974&vw=dc).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2014, 08:24:41 AM
Has anyone explored Robert Taub's Beethoven?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 13, 2014, 08:33:15 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 13, 2014, 07:45:14 AMAnyone heard 'em?


Yes. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2342.msg467795.html#msg467795)  Volume 4 is in my to-hear pile.



Quote from: Mandryka on January 13, 2014, 08:24:41 AMHas anyone explored Robert Taub's Beethoven?


I've got one volume.  Technically secure, quick, energetic, but superficial.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 17, 2014, 06:16:31 AM
Naxos Music Library just added 7 volumes of a cycle by Ian Hobson. Anybody know anything about that one?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 17, 2014, 06:32:49 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2014, 06:16:31 AMNaxos Music Library just added 7 volumes of a cycle by Ian Hobson. Anybody know anything about that one?



Yes. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg317176/topicseen.html#msg317176)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on January 17, 2014, 06:35:36 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2014, 06:16:31 AM
Naxos Music Library just added 7 volumes of a cycle by Ian Hobson. Anybody know anything about that one?

Boring.

Listening through some Korstick (bought the set last year). Don't know what to say. Like parts of it but he sounds all too deliberate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 18, 2014, 07:33:30 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bcy14v8rL._SY355_.jpg)



Gerard Willems' cycle, the only one on a Stuart and Sons piano, is being reissued in a big box, coupled with the concertos and Diabellis.  I have the sonatas, and they are enjoyable enough, capped off by a world class Op 26 (possibly my favorite version of the work).  If I go for the Diabellis, I think I may personally go the single disc route.  (I can probably live without the concertos.)  One thing is for certain, no other pianos sound quite like Stuart and Sons.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2014, 08:07:10 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 18, 2014, 07:33:30 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bcy14v8rL._SY355_.jpg)



Gerard Willems' cycle, the only one on a Stuart and Sons piano, is being reissued in a big box, coupled with the concertos and Diabellis.  I have the sonatas, and they are enjoyable enough, capped off by a world class Op 26 (possibly my favorite version of the work).  If I go for the Diabellis, I think I may personally go the single disc route.  (I can probably live without the concertos.)  One thing is for certain, no other pianos sound quite like Stuart and Sons.
Why does it say 36 sonatas on the cover?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 18, 2014, 08:18:15 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2014, 08:07:10 AMWhy does it say 36 sonatas on the cover?


I would guess the WoO 47 & 51 sonatas are included.  I don't have those from Willems.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 18, 2014, 09:36:18 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2014, 08:07:10 AM
Why does it say 36 sonatas on the cover?
Woo
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 18, 2014, 11:16:33 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 18, 2014, 08:18:15 AM

I would guess the WoO 47 & 51 sonatas are included.  I don't have those from Willems.

Yes, they are included.

But the idea of playing these intimate early sonatas, which maybe even were intended to be played on the clavichord, on a Stuart & Sons piano, strikes me as being absurd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on January 19, 2014, 01:14:45 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 10, 2014, 07:28:59 PM
Huh. I'm listening to short sample clips from the new Jonathan Biss volume, containing 15, 16, and 21, and it seems to be very speedy indeed, especially the Pastorale.

Speedy but good! I was not very impressed with his previous installments, but this one seems to fare much better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 19, 2014, 01:27:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 13, 2014, 08:24:41 AM
Has anyone explored Robert Taub's Beethoven?

Lousy sound, close up clangy piano that stopped me listening. Very sad for the pianist because I thought he was pretty good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on January 19, 2014, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 18, 2014, 07:33:30 AM
One thing is for certain, no other pianos sound quite like Stuart and Sons.
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 18, 2014, 11:16:33 PM

But the idea of playing these intimate early sonatas, which maybe even were intended to be played on the clavichord, on a Stuart & Sons piano, strikes me as being absurd.

Having never (to my knowledge) heard anything played on a Stuart & Sons piano, what is so special about that make?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2014, 05:57:29 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:10:31 PMHaving never (to my knowledge) heard anything played on a Stuart & Sons piano, what is so special about that make?



Different is probably a better word than special.  Stuart and Sons pianos come in 97 and 102 key versions.  (Willems used a 97 key version.)  They have four pedals standard.  They play deeper than any other piano; they sound clearer than Steinways or Bechsteins or Bosendorfers, but not necessarily Faziolis; they have a broader tonal range, aided by the extra pedal; and they can sound "bigger" than other pianos.  It is in many ways ideal for Op 106.  I'd love to hear what someone like FFG or Stewart Goodyear could do with one.  I'd also very much love to hear Debussy and, especially, Messiaen played on one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on January 19, 2014, 06:05:53 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 19, 2014, 05:57:29 PM


Different is probably a better word than special.  Stuart and Sons pianos come in 97 and 102 key versions.  (Willems used a 97 key version.)  They have four pedals standard.  They play deeper than any other piano; they sound clearer than Steinways or Bechsteins or Bosendorfers, but not necessarily Faziolis; they have a broader tonal range, aided by the extra pedal; and they can sound "bigger" than other pianos.  It is in many ways ideal for Op 106.  I'd love to hear what someone like FFG or Stewart Goodyear could do with one.  I'd also very much love to hear Debussy and, especially, Messiaen played on one.

Thanks for the explanation.  Now you have me curious about the Willems.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2014, 06:09:18 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 06:05:53 PMThanks for the explanation.  Now you have me curious about the Willems.



Willems is enjoyable, and I would describe his cycle as largely conventional in approach, but on a radical instrument.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 19, 2014, 07:04:20 PM
I tried Willems' Op. 26 on Naxos Music Library, and enjoyed it completely, but my laptop speakers are extremely poor so I don't feel qualified to make any further comment on it. Will try with headphones at some point.

...I need a real CD player.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 23, 2014, 08:25:13 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IlYbFaSpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



Another complete cycle from Japan: Yaeko Yamane.  May be time to make an inaugural purchase from Amazon Japan.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 27, 2014, 07:14:53 PM
.
[asin]B00GK8OZZC[/asin]


The Frenchest Beethoven cycle yet continues.  Bavouzet's playing is generally crisp 'n' clean, with nice articulation and satisfying but never Wow! dynamics.  Tempi are generally on the ever so slightly swift but completely sane side.  Op 22 is superb, with the classicism played up.  This definitely remains something of a French pianist specialty.  Op 27/1 is perhaps a touch too straight and 27/2 lacks the long sustain in the opening movement, but both are quite fine.  Op 28 is less lyrical than I expected, but much better for it.  There's some bite, and the sound for this one most closely resembles what I heard tonally from Bavouzet in person.  31/1 is absolutely delightful start to finish and 31/3 is mostly exuberant and playful, with Op 31/2 somewhat restrained and classical in approach, making for an excellent Op 31.  Op 49 are played like bon-bons.  My only issue seems to be with Op 53.  He brings some of the same things I heard in recital last fall, including what sounds like a not entirely secure opening movement, with occasionally too-growly bass and undue left hand emphasis.  It's not bad at all, but it's not top flight.  The Andante Favori, perhaps just a little too sweet, is a gem, though.  Sound is excellent.  After two-thirds of the cycle, I can say it doesn't seem that Bavouzet matches up to FFG, let alone Eric Heidsieck, among Frenchies, but I rather hope the final volume is released sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 28, 2014, 02:02:20 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 23, 2014, 08:25:13 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IlYbFaSpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



Another complete cycle from Japan: Yaeko Yamane.  May be time to make an inaugural purchase from Amazon Japan.

Good find! If / when you know more, will you let me know details about it... specifically recording dates (earliest to last)?? Thanks much!

jfl
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 29, 2014, 06:44:55 PM
.
[asin]B00FQQ5XWI[/asin]


The third volume of Jonathan Biss' cycle is out.  I think I waited long enough to give it a listen.  Op 28 sounds predictably good, and reminds me of my memory of what his earlier recording sounded like.  (I didn't A/B them.)  Generally, it's swift, lyrical, clear, articulate, hefty a few times where it should be, and generally just swell to listen to.  Op 31/1 is great good fun.  It has a fast, clear, fun opener, with Biss playing some passages as a garish gallop.  The second movement is taken at a nice clip, but never sounds rushed.  The closing movement starts somewhat somberly, but quickly changes into good clean fun.  The disc ends with the Waldstein.  The opening is youthful and exhuberant.  It's fast, clear, superbly controlled, if perhaps a bit showy here and there.  The second movement is pretty much conventional, and Biss keeps the final movement suprisingly gentle and beautiful during the quieter passages so as to offer greater conrast with the more potent, boisterous parts.  The playing lacks the depth of the best interpretations, but overall, it's quite a good recording.  Overall, the best disc of the cycle so far.

Superb sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 31, 2014, 03:48:14 PM
.
[asin]B00CL1C2ZC[/asin]



I've been waiting to hear Christian Leotta's final volume for a while, so when it became available, I snapped it up.  Unfortunately, there appears to have been some type of problem with the pressing.  I've had to get two different sets, and both display trademarks of data/pressing errors.  On my main CD player (a older Naim), the disc "skips", and on my home theater player (a brand new Oppo), there is crackling reminiscent of bad LP surface noise.  What a bummer.  I've sent an email to Atma, a company whose discs thus far have been fine, to see what, if anything they can do.  If you were planning to buy it, it may pay to wait.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on January 31, 2014, 07:08:49 PM
Todd--I recently ordered the first two CDs of  what will be a complete Beethoven sonata set by an English pianist named James Brawn (MSR). He plays a couple from Opus 2 (1,3) and the Appassionata, Pathetique, Moonlight, and Waldstein. There have been some favorable reviews of these discs. Have you heard of this pianist or heard these CDs? I also agree the third Biss volume is very fine.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 01, 2014, 11:46:46 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on January 31, 2014, 07:08:49 PMI recently ordered the first two CDs of  what will be a complete Beethoven sonata set by an English pianist named James Brawn...[h]ave you heard of this pianist or heard these CDs? I also agree the third Biss volume is very fine.



I've seen the discs in my searches, but I've not bought any nor read any reviews.  That he's early in the cycle now implies that he's aiming for a complete cycle by 2020.  I don't know if I'll buy before then or not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on February 01, 2014, 03:36:38 PM
Brawn's cycle is supposedly to be completed by 2015.  Fanfare raved about his playing, for whatever that is worth
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 01, 2014, 03:57:25 PM
MusicWeb sent me James Brawn Vol. 2 just this week! It has 8, 14, 19-21. My first pass was on a low volume level while reading, so not exactly undivided attention, but the Waldstein seemed paced the way I like it (bit slower, more expansive in the last two movements) while the other sonatas seemed perfectly "normal". Very courtly minuet in the Moonlight sonata - almost like Karl Bohm was conducting him. I'll listen more carefully soon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on February 01, 2014, 04:13:05 PM
Concerning James Brawn, (not to be confused with the Godfather of Soul    0:)  ) :

Quote"A tremendous display of pianistic virtuosity with a powerful interpretation." Evening Telegraph (UK).

Born into a musical and medical family, pianist James Brawn started piano lessons at the age of seven in New Zealand. He made exceptional progress over the next ten years, studying with pupils of Solomon, Arrau and Serkin in Australia. From 1988-1992, James completed his undergraduate and postgraduate training at the Royal Academy of Music in London, winning many awards including the Beethoven, Romantic and 20th century prizes.

James was a concerto finalist in the ABC Young Performer of the Year, playing with the Adelaide and Melbourne symphony orchestras and, at the age of nineteen, won the keyboard final of the Royal Over-Seas League competition in London. He has performed for music societies and festivals throughout the UK, Italy, Australia and China and given concerts at the Purcell Room, Queen Elizabeth Hall, St.James Piccadilly and St.Martin-in-the-Fields in London. He has broadcast on ABC Classic FM and 3MBS radio in Australia.

Now residing with his family in the beautiful English Cotswolds, James has recorded his debut CD at Potton Hall on the Suffolk coast. 'My Beethoven Odyssey - Appassionata' is the first album in James' project to perform and record the complete Beethoven piano sonatas.  During the 2011/12 season, James gives solo recitals in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Cheltenham, Chichester, Paris, Sicily, Hong Kong, Brunei and New Orleans.

For more, see:

http://jamesbrawn.com/biography/ (http://jamesbrawn.com/biography/)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on February 02, 2014, 01:45:13 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2014, 03:48:14 PM
on my home theater player (a brand new Oppo), there is crackling reminiscent of bad LP surface noise.  What a bummer. 

I've experienced the same with the last disc (from several sets) of the Melodiya box of the latest remastering of the Borodin Shostakovich quartets. I've never managed to get a correct set. The only time I've experienced this on my thousands of discs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on February 02, 2014, 04:01:12 AM
Before noticing that the discussion here had been revived quite nicely in the past week, I had already returned to this collection:

[asin]B000E0LB7C[/asin]

I became hooked on Backhaus 50 years ago now (   ??? ??? ??? ) via a record with the last 2 or 3 sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 02, 2014, 08:33:13 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bt6NqEUfL.jpg)


The first installment in Paavali Jumppanen's cycle is finally (almost) here.  Slated for a late February release in Germany.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 02, 2014, 10:33:23 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 01, 2014, 04:13:05 PM
Concerning James Brawn, (not to be confused with the Godfather of Soul    0:)  ) :

Now wouldn't that be something...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on February 02, 2014, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 02, 2014, 10:33:23 AM
Now wouldn't that be something...
James Brawn, in that case, would have to be the Godfather of Saul.

Now that is one scary thought!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on February 02, 2014, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: The new erato on February 02, 2014, 02:37:18 PM
James Brawn, in that case, would have to be the Godfather of Saul.

Now that is one scary thought!

Amen!   0:)  I like how your mind thinks!  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 04, 2014, 09:11:09 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2014, 03:48:14 PM
.
[asin]B00CL1C2ZC[/asin]



I've been waiting to hear Christian Leotta's final volume for a while, so when it became available, I snapped it up.  Unfortunately, there appears to have been some type of problem with the pressing.  I've had to get two different sets, and both display trademarks of data/pressing errors.  On my main CD player (a older Naim), the disc "skips", and on my home theater player (a brand new Oppo), there is crackling reminiscent of bad LP surface noise.  What a bummer.  I've sent an email to Atma, a company whose discs thus far have been fine, to see what, if anything they can do.  If you were planning to buy it, it may pay to wait.



So, I contacted ATMA, and they acknowledged that they are aware of this issue.  They stated the issue had to do with the length of the CDs, with the discs being over 75 minutes each, and that some CD players have difficulty reading the discs.  That may be true, though my Naim and Oppo players handle the 81 and 82 minute UMG discs I have just fine, but in any event it is a known issue and they will not be repressing soon.  In the spirit of good customer service, however, they offered to provide me with FLAC files for free and to notify me if they repress the discs (as part of a box set?) so they can replace the set I have.  That works for me.  The most important thing is that I get my grubby paws on the music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on February 04, 2014, 09:21:43 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 02, 2014, 08:33:13 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bt6NqEUfL.jpg)


The first installment in Paavali Jumppanen's cycle is finally (almost) here.  Slated for a late February release in Germany.

Thanks for the heads up. It's now available at NML. I predict his handling of exposition repeats in (at least) the early sonatas will be controversial. Lots of free elaboration, the likes of which I've never heard before.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 05, 2014, 11:00:37 AM
An interesting approach which in the main does not work for me. All his first movements use variable speeds to try and create a sense ebb and flow. Top pianists can do this by simply varying dynamics and tonal colour and lesser pianists have to resort to some form of legerdemain to try and achieve that effect. On top of that, he adds notes to the music that Beethoven never wrote, along with overly elaborate ornamentation. Where a simple three note mordant is indicated this might become five or even seven notes. That said I did like his handling of the slow movements of Op 2.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 07, 2014, 02:52:13 PM
Some may have notice that I'm a maniac about comparing versions. A few months back I've listened to all my Beethoven piano sonatas CDs and compared all of them. So now I know what my favourite versions are in each of the sonatas.

I sometimes like several versions, I haven't re-compared them already. I wait to get to a higher level of my comparison sickness.

I still have to listen again to Schnabel, and also to Frank. And probably a few isolated versions (at least a few Richter and Gilels I know I recently bought, or forgot during my comparison).

1 Schnabel 1934 / Grinberg 1966 / Richter 6/1976
2 Schnabel 1934 / Heidsieck / Annie Fischer 1977-78 / Guilels 1984
3 Richter 12/1/1975 / Annie Fischer 1977-78
4 Schnabel 1935 / Richter 12/1/1975 / Sokolov 3/1991
5 Schnabel 1935 / Backhaus 1963
6 Grinberg 1964
7 Richter 6/1976 / Guilels 21/9/1980 / Guilels 10/1980
8 Serkin 1962 / Annie Fischer 1977-78
9 Heidsieck
10 Arrau 4/1966 / Heidsieck / Annie Fischer 1977-78
11 Grinberg 1964 / Richter 20/10/68 / Annie Fischer 1977-78 / Michelangeli 7/4/1988
12 Serkin 8/12/1970 / Michelangeli 13/4/1982
13 Grinberg 1964 / Guilels 9/1980
14 Backhaus 10/1958 / Annie Fischer 2/11/1958 / Grinberg 1959 / Arrau 6/1962 / Guilels 9/1980
15 Edwin Fischer 28/7/1954 / Backhaus 11/1961
16 Schnabel 1935 / Backhaus 4/1969 / Serkin 1970
17 Schnabel 1934 / Richter 2/6/1965 /
18 Nat 1955 / Richter 2/6/1965 / Grinberg 1966 / Fischer 1977-78
19 Richter 17/1/65 / Backhaus 3/68 / Annie Fischer 1977-78 / Lupu 12/1977
20 Nat 1954 / Grinberg 1965 / Lupu 12/1977
21 Serkin 1975
22 Grinberg 65 / Arrau 10/65
23 Gieseking 23/6/1951 / Levy 1956 / Richter 1/11/1959 / Gilels 14/1/61 / Serkin 62
24 Schnabel 32 / Heidsieck
25 Backhaus 10/63 / Annie Fischer 1977-78
26 Gilels 12/74 / Gilels 10/80
27 Gilels 22/4/57
28 Yudina 1958 / Grinberg 1966 / Heidsieck / Sokolov 3/1991
29 Richter 2/6/75
30 Gieseking 1955 / Serkin 1976
31 Schnabel 32 / Edwin Fischer 38 / Serkin 71 / Guller 73 / Richter 10/91
32 Edwin Fischer 1954 / Serkin 67 / Michelangeli 1988 (Bregenz)

Overall, Richter is the pianist I prefer in Beethoven, followed by Serkin, Annie Fischer and Maria Grinberg (I really love also a pianist like Edwin Fischer but he only recorded a few sonatas).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 10, 2014, 11:07:47 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 04, 2014, 09:11:09 AM
They stated the issue had to do with the length of the CDs, with the discs being over 75 minutes each, and that some CD players have difficulty reading the discs.

Sounds like a bit of a fudge to me, in that I'd say it's a combination of length plus bad pressing technique. A quick bit of research showed that most pressings these days can happily handle up to about 79 minutes without concern.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2014, 08:01:17 AM
I have somewhat rummaged through the 130+ pages of this very informative thread. I'm in search of purchasing a few discs that cover some of the highlights of Beethoven's sonatas. I have a few MP3s of LvB sonatas from library discs I checked out, but I currently do not own any. I've heard many of them on the radio throughout the years, I enjoy a few named ones, Moonlight and Tempest mostly.
I see names on online stores that are inexpensive, Ashkenazy (London), Pollini (DG) and Brendel to name a few. I have a feeling that those might be considered "the usual suspects" and I'm sure I could benefit from traveling past the top sellers, but I'm just looking for a start up. I'm not looking for complete sets, unless they run around $25-30.
Any recommendations?

Thank you in advance!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 12, 2014, 08:08:24 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2014, 08:01:17 AM
I have somewhat rummaged through the 130+ pages of this very informative thread. I'm in search of purchasing a few discs that cover some of the highlights of Beethoven's sonatas. I have a few MP3s of LvB sonatas from library discs I checked out, but I currently do not own any. I've heard many of them on the radio throughout the years, I enjoy a few named ones, Moonlight and Tempest mostly.
I see names on online stores that are inexpensive, Ashkenazy (London), Pollini (DG) and Brendel to name a few. I have a feeling that those might be considered "the usual suspects" and I'm sure I could benefit from traveling past the top sellers, but I'm just looking for a start up. I'm not looking for complete sets, unless they run around $25-30.
Any recommendations?

Thank you in advance!  :)

A couple of my favorite sonatas are missing from this, and it has no booklet, but it's still consistently outstanding:

[asin]B008CG1HPQ[/asin]

$28 shipped on Marketplace.

One of the best HIP Beethoven discs ever recorded is now under $10:

[asin]B004GV76PQ[/asin]

And this here is a classic.

[asin]B000001G79[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2014, 08:26:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 12, 2014, 08:08:24 AM
One of the best HIP Beethoven discs ever recorded is now under $10:

[asin]B004GV76PQ[/asin]

Oh, here's another dangerous place for me . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2014, 08:36:40 AM
Thanks, Brian, for the great recs!  :) The Serkin looks like a steal.


Quote from: sanantonio on February 12, 2014, 08:32:53 AM
Speaking of PI recordings, there's of course the Brautigam (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sonatas-Pathetique-Complete-Brautigam/dp/B00066K0HQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1392226159&sr=1-1&keywords=brautigam+beethoven).  But of the newer cycles, which can be bought as individual discs there's FF Guy (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Fran%C3%A7ois-Frederic-Guy/dp/B00E9IWVM4/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1392226208&sr=1-1&keywords=Guy+beethoven) (a bit outside your price range), Stewart Goodyear (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Final-Sonatas-Stewart-Goodyear/dp/B003XQE0K4/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1392226288&sr=1-3&keywords=stewart+goodyear+beethoven) and Jonathan Biss (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Vol-1-Nos/dp/B005X0NRVG/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1392226334&sr=1-3&keywords=jonathan+biss+beethoven+sonatas).  All well done and not household names, at least not yet.

I'm familiar with Guy and Biss, but not the other two. And PI performances greatly interest me with Beethoven. Thanks, SA.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on February 12, 2014, 08:53:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 12, 2014, 08:26:16 AM
Oh, here's another dangerous place for me . . . .
Just get it already, Karl!   (and Greg, too)
If you haven't pulled the trigger yet, read Giordano Bruno's review, and then get it.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2014, 08:36:40 AM
And PI performances greatly interest me with Beethoven.
Order Crawford's Op. 109-111 disc now.
The FF Guy set is excellent, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 12, 2014, 08:58:18 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2014, 08:01:17 AM
I have somewhat rummaged through the 130+ pages of this very informative thread. I'm in search of purchasing a few discs that cover some of the highlights of Beethoven's sonatas. I have a few MP3s of LvB sonatas from library discs I checked out, but I currently do not own any. I've heard many of them on the radio throughout the years, I enjoy a few named ones, Moonlight and Tempest mostly.
I see names on online stores that are inexpensive, Ashkenazy (London), Pollini (DG) and Brendel to name a few. I have a feeling that those might be considered "the usual suspects" and I'm sure I could benefit from traveling past the top sellers, but I'm just looking for a start up. I'm not looking for complete sets, unless they run around $25-30.
Any recommendations?

Thank you in advance!  :)

For a great introductory set, I'd enthusiastically recommend Gulda's Amadeo cycle. Plus, at only £21 at amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Piano-Sonaten-32-Concerti/dp/B000BQV52A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1392227360&sr=8-2&keywords=beethoven+gulda), it's a steal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 12, 2014, 08:58:30 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2014, 08:01:17 AMI see names on online stores that are inexpensive, Ashkenazy (London), Pollini (DG) and Brendel to name a few.



From these three, Pollini is the best choice.  Brian's choices are excellent as well.  Cheap complete sets that meet your price criterion include Kempff, Brendel, and Barenboim, and for a few bucks more, Gulda.  Kempff and Gulda would be the best choices.  You can also get Seymour Lipkin's complete cycle in MP3 with the scores for under $20, and the cycle is excellent.  Also consider Bruce Hungerford and, of course, Sviatoslav Richter. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 12, 2014, 08:59:12 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 12, 2014, 08:53:23 AM
Order Crawford's Op. 109-111 disc now.
The FF Guy set is excellent, too.


Yes and yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 12, 2014, 08:59:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 12, 2014, 08:26:16 AM
Oh, here's another dangerous place for me . . . .

You won't regret it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2014, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 12, 2014, 08:53:23 AM
Just get it already, Karl!   (and Greg, too)

Done.  (But maybe you knew that . . . .)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2014, 09:00:33 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 12, 2014, 08:59:43 AM
You won't regret it.

Cheers, Tasos!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 12, 2014, 09:16:25 AM
For those who want exceptional Beethoven recordings on fortepiano, Alexei Lubimov seems a fairly undisputable first choice. (But I'll try Penelope Crawford.)

The FF Guy set is awful. FF Guy is kind of a butcher more than a pianist. Even a cent would be too much to pay for his set.

Ashkenazy and Brendel are to avoid. Pollini is quite interesting in his recent recordings, but not a must have.

Brian's Serkin recommendation is a great start and everyone SHOULD have it anyway.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 12, 2014, 09:22:42 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 12, 2014, 09:16:25 AM
The FF Guy set is awful. FF Guy is kind of a butcher more than a pianist.
Brian's Serkin recommendation is a great start and everyone SHOULD have it anyway.

Seconded.

I consider Guy an awful mannered guy. And I do not like his manners.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on February 12, 2014, 09:28:30 AM
[asin]B003YI3D4K[/asin]
[asin]B00005UOW0[/asin]
[asin]B00000291P[/asin]

The Richter is a usual suspect, perhaps, and you only get one Beethoven sonata, but it is glorious.

The Moravec is probably my favorite Beethoven piano solo disc.

The Rosen set is long OOP (though it was included in a Beethoven megabox from Sony) and asking prices had been astronomical, but as of this moment there are 3 that are reasonable.

The Gilels iceberg disc and Pollini's late sonata set are fine choices too.

ETA: among full sets, I have Gulda/Amadeo (currently available affordably on Decca Eloquence, though the AMSI processing makes me nervous) and Kempff/DG mono. Of those two I prefer Gulda. Kempff has some sublime moments but overall is not very fiery.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 12, 2014, 09:40:07 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 12, 2014, 09:16:25 AM
For those who want exceptional Beethoven recordings on fortepiano, Alexei Lubimov seems a fairly undisputable first choice. (But I'll try Penelope Crawford.)
Yep, I would dispute Lubimov. Good, a little eccentric. Crawford uses the piano's mute pedal to work magic.

On the subject of HIP Beethoven, my favorite single disc from the Brautigam series is the one with his "Waldstein".

Bavouzet may be out of Greg's price range. (FFGuy might be, too, but count me one of his admirers!)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2014, 10:00:12 AM
Well, but you ask, just in case! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 12, 2014, 11:11:44 AM
Let's look at getting most of the sonatas but by different pianists. I would recommend these as starters. Maybe not the top draw for each sonata but certainly very good performances.

Pollini
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vCkNkFa2L._SY300__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)

Hungerford (the rest of his recordings are well worth getting)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51711EGVBHL.jpg)

Richter - as a a sample of his playing. I like virtually everything Richter does with LvB and as mentioned before get his Appassionata from the 50s/60s

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HX0D7RF0L.jpg)

Kovacevich (some may disagree here)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jCKZvJ7XL._SY300_.jpg)

For full sets Annie Fischer is excellent (but expensive). The beauty of her 32 is that there are no bad performances. If you like the quirky then have a listen to Glenn Gould.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 12, 2014, 12:30:10 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 12, 2014, 08:58:18 AM
For a great introductory set, I'd enthusiastically recommend Gulda's Amadeo cycle. Plus, at only £21 at amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Piano-Sonaten-32-Concerti/dp/B000BQV52A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1392227360&sr=8-2&keywords=beethoven+gulda), it's a steal.

Bingo!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 12, 2014, 12:38:13 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 12, 2014, 11:11:44 AM
For full sets Annie Fischer is excellent (but expensive). The beauty of her 32 is that there are no bad performances.
Exactly, one of the best full sets.

About Richter, who is unavoidable in Beethoven, the top priority imo is the Praga releases, in the recent remasterings, plus the Brilliant radio archives (Beethoven now available separately).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nRzjAfxKL._SY300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gEhkt9WlL._SY450_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Oof4-SZXL._SY450_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vWG-sIDLL._SY450_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/618aN1KgLJL._SY450_.jpg)

Here you have among the very best Beethoven performances by Richter (and the best Hammerklavier ever) for approx. 70€.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 12, 2014, 12:55:49 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 12, 2014, 12:38:13 PM
Exactly, one of the best full sets.

About Richter, who is unavoidable in Beethoven, the top priority imo is the Praga releases, in the recent remasterings, plus the Brilliant radio archives (Beethoven now available separately).

The same Beethoven that is in the Green Brilliant Box.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 12, 2014, 01:14:51 PM
Quote from: George on February 12, 2014, 12:55:49 PM
The same Beethoven that is in the Green Brilliant Box.
Exactly. This box being oop, I was just putting the picture of the new release for those who seek advice on what their first purchases should be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 12, 2014, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 12, 2014, 01:14:51 PM
Exactly. This box being oop, I was just putting the picture of the new release for those who seek advice on what their first purchases should be.

Thanks.

My statement was meant as a question, but I left out the (?), glad you read it that way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on February 12, 2014, 03:44:14 PM
If one is going to buy any of Richter's EMI recordings, the 14-CD Icon set (now labelled as Warner) is a good way to go. It has everything he recorded for them and can be had for about $30. BUT it only has one disc of Beethoven piano sonatas. That disc IMO is good but not the highlight of the set and does not reach the same towering heights as his Appassionata on either RCA or Melodiya. Still, it (the Icon box) is a great buy overall.

I like the Brilliant set, but be aware that the sound quality is mostly not great.

And his Hammerklavier, oh yes! I have the London concert on ica. It, the Praga mentioned by Cosi bel do, and also the one on BBC Legends, are 3 different performances, but all date from June 1975. The one I have is awesome. I haven't heard the other 2.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 13, 2014, 02:02:47 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2014, 08:01:17 AM
I have somewhat rummaged through the 130+ pages of this very informative thread. I'm in search of purchasing a few discs that cover some of the highlights of Beethoven's sonatas. I have a few MP3s of LvB sonatas from library discs I checked out, but I currently do not own any. I've heard many of them on the radio throughout the years, I enjoy a few named ones, Moonlight and Tempest mostly.
I see names on online stores that are inexpensive, Ashkenazy (London), Pollini (DG) and Brendel to name a few. I have a feeling that those might be considered "the usual suspects" and I'm sure I could benefit from traveling past the top sellers, but I'm just looking for a start up. I'm not looking for complete sets, unless they run around $25-30.
Any recommendations?

Thank you in advance!  :)

The usual suspects are the usual ones, because they are unusually good. Nonetheless, many fine discoveries lurk in the corners. My personal choice is Backhaus II, my primary recommendation Gulda (my near-boss' father, actually, as per last week) -- "Gulda II" (his third, confusingly). Also love Brautigam... and Gilels and Pollini... et al.

More here:

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 1, 1935 - 1969
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 13, 2014, 02:20:10 AM
Quote from: Pat B on February 12, 2014, 03:44:14 PM
If one is going to buy any of Richter's EMI recordings, the 14-CD Icon set (now labelled as Warner) is a good way to go. It has everything he recorded for them and can be had for about $30. BUT it only has one disc of Beethoven piano sonatas. That disc IMO is good but not the highlight of the set and does not reach the same towering heights as his Appassionata on either RCA or Melodiya. Still, it (the Icon box) is a great buy overall.

I like the Brilliant set, but be aware that the sound quality is mostly not great.

And his Hammerklavier, oh yes! I have the London concert on ica. It, the Praga mentioned by Cosi bel do, and also the one on BBC Legends, are 3 different performances, but all date from June 1975. The one I have is awesome. I haven't heard the other 2.
The Praga concert is slightly better, probably thanks to the Petrof piano Richter loved to play in Prague.
And the sound on the Brilliant set is not that bad, compared to other concerts of the same period.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 13, 2014, 02:24:17 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 13, 2014, 02:02:47 AM
The usual suspects are the usual ones, because they are unusually good. Nonetheless, many fine discoveries lurk in the corners. My personal choice is Backhaus II, my primary recommendation Gulda (my near-boss' father, actually, as per last week) -- "Gulda II" (his third, confusingly). Also love Brautigam... and Gilels and Pollini... et al.


Well that's really a question of taste. Gulda imo is irritating, mechanical and full of mannerisms. In a close "fresh" approach I'd rather recommend Heidsieck.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 13, 2014, 04:16:50 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 13, 2014, 02:24:17 AM
Gulda imo is irritating, mechanical and full of mannerisms.
In a close "fresh" approach I'd rather recommend Heidsieck.

Even here we agree.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2014, 09:13:51 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 13, 2014, 02:24:17 AM
Well that's really a question of taste. Gulda imo is irritating, mechanical and full of mannerisms. In a close "fresh" approach I'd rather recommend Heidsieck.

And yet I think that Heidsieck is slightly irritating and full of mannerisms. Rubato's a strange thing, and like lovers' faces, what you like and dislike is so subjective that really, you have to suck everything and see. I'm no more positive about Gulda 2, though I'm not sure I'd noticed that  it's full of mannerisms. Can you point out an example or two, so I can listen?

Anyway the main thing I want to say is that no discussion of Richter's Beethoven should leave out his wonderful op 14s on BBC Legends.

(http://pixhost.me/share/img/2006_06_1/1.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2014, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 12, 2014, 11:11:44 AM

Hungerford (the rest of his recordings are well worth getting)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51711EGVBHL.jpg)


Bruce Hungerford made an LP in honour of his teacher Karl Friedberg, with an op 111, and some Bach. This is the Beethoven recording I've enjoyed most from him. There used to a transfer on symphonyshare.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 13, 2014, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 13, 2014, 02:02:47 AM
The usual suspects are the usual ones, because they are unusually good.

I tend to agree. In particular, I differ with many here about Brendel's Beethoven, which I find both loyal to the score and full of life. His two Philips cycles are among my favorites, and I recently heard his Vox cycle and thoroughly enjoyed it. On the other hand, I've never been totally sold on Annie Fischer's cycle, a favorite in these parts (although I understand the appeal).

Quote from: jlaurson on February 13, 2014, 02:02:47 AM
My personal choice is Backhaus II, my primary recommendation Gulda (my near-boss' father, actually, as per last week) -- "Gulda II" (his third, confusingly). Also love Brautigam... and Gilels and Pollini... et al.

Looks like we have similar taste, although I probably wouldn't place Backhaus at the top.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 13, 2014, 02:24:17 AM
Well that's really a question of taste. Gulda imo is irritating, mechanical and full of mannerisms.

It most certainly is a question of taste. Gulda "II" might be my favorite! It has competition in sets by Kempff, Brendel, Brautigam, Schiff, Arrau, and Gilels. That said, I definitely haven't listened to as many cycles as some others here have.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 13, 2014, 10:05:23 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 13, 2014, 02:02:47 AM
The usual suspects are the usual ones, because they are unusually good. Nonetheless, many fine discoveries lurk in the corners. My personal choice is Backhaus II,

A superb set, not just for Backhaus's playing, which is described as one reviewer as being chiseled out of granite, but also the recorded sound, which beautifully captures the sound of his piano.

Quotemy primary recommendation Gulda (my near-boss' father, actually, as per last week) -- "Gulda II" (his third, confusingly).

The Gulda is also one of my favorites. I like his speedy, clean-shaven readings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 13, 2014, 10:39:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2014, 09:13:51 AMAnd yet I think that Heidsieck is slightly irritating and full of mannerisms.



Heidsieck's set is most definitely filled with mannerisms - it's one of the most mannered sets in existence, or at least among the 75.75 complete sets I've heard.  That written, I find it among the best cycles yet recorded.  I find Gulda far less mannered, and he, too, is among the best ever.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baroque Obama on February 13, 2014, 11:24:13 AM
If you take the sets that I got rid of into account, too, I own all the stereo sets available and in my experience, Gilels(incomplete), Goode, Kovacevich are the best complete sets. Maybe Brautigam for the fortepiano.

I'd think of buying A.Fischer, any of the Gulda sets, Lortie and Badura-Skoda sets if I were to keep more than 10 sets, Schiff and Lewis after 15.I'd consider the likes of Heidsieck or Hungerford for the dump truck processing

There are very good individual performances such as Perahia (though he is working on Urtext edition for a new and complete set for the last few years), Lupu (8, 14 & 21), Brendel (26) Arrau (for all the named sonatas), Moravec is amazing (8, 14 & 26), Pletnev, Richter and Pollini for the late sonatas with Richter's great 23, Rubinstein's selection of the named sonatas are favorites for many people. Even Kempff for the last two sonatas are great.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 13, 2014, 11:34:36 AM
Quote from: Baroque Obama on February 13, 2014, 11:24:13 AMIf you take the sets that I got rid of into account, too, I own all the stereo sets available and in my experience



What do you think of Yaeko Yamane's cycle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2014, 11:56:59 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 13, 2014, 11:34:36 AM
What do you think of Yaeko Yamane's cycle?
I was going to ask about Lucchesini's but BO says "available." And then I got sad that people can't buy Lucchesini's set anymore. It's like evangelizing for a heaven that's already full.  :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 13, 2014, 12:04:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2014, 11:56:59 AMI was going to ask about Lucchesini's but BO says "available." And then I got sad that people can't buy Lucchesini's set anymore. It's like evangelizing for a heaven that's already full.  :(


Yes, it is most unfortunate that Lucchesini is OOP.  Maybe it will come back to market.  It should.

I wonder if BO has any comments on Michael Houstoun's set or Shoko Sugitani's set, too.  Both are currently available and have been for years, but pretty much no one who posts online ever comments about them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 13, 2014, 12:36:56 PM
And what about the cycle by the fascinatingly obscure Peruvian pianist Ayahualpa Camaxtliatepec? Some strange interpretive choices (I believe this may be the slowest "Tempest" I've ever heard) but well worth having for comparison. Amazon doesn't list it but I know there are a few copies still in stock at the Inca Music Centre on the slopes of Nevado Santo Domingo, a two-day donkey ride from Cuzco. (You may want to call in advance to check—ask for Manuel)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 13, 2014, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: amw on February 13, 2014, 12:36:56 PMAnd what about the cycle by the fascinatingly obscure Peruvian pianist Ayahualpa Camaxtliatepec? Some strange interpretive choices (I believe this may be the slowest "Tempest" I've ever heard) but well worth having for comparison. Amazon doesn't list it but I know there are a few copies still in stock at the Inca Music Centre on the slopes of Nevado Santo Domingo, a two-day donkey ride from Cuzco. (You may want to call in advance to check—ask for Manuel)



Modestly amusing, but BO claims to have owned or currently own all available stereo cycles, so I'm just hoping s/he has some insight on some obscure cycles.  I'm only interested in ones that require a bit of mouse clicking.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2014, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: amw on February 13, 2014, 12:36:56 PM
And what about the cycle by the fascinatingly obscure Peruvian pianist Ayahualpa Camaxtliatepec? Some strange interpretive choices (I believe this may be the slowest "Tempest" I've ever heard) but well worth having for comparison. Amazon doesn't list it but I know there are a few copies still in stock at the Inca Music Centre on the slopes of Nevado Santo Domingo, a two-day donkey ride from Cuzco. (You may want to call in advance to check—ask for Manuel)
You had me going for a sentence and a half but by the end I was doubled up in silent don't-disturb-the-office laughter.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baroque Obama on February 13, 2014, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2014, 11:56:59 AM
I was going to ask about Lucchesini's but BO says "available." And then I got sad that people can't buy Lucchesini's set anymore. It's like evangelizing for a heaven that's already full.  :(
"Availability" of course depends on many things Brian. Should I be proud that I have Lucchesini's cycle? I don't remember turning to those in recent years.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baroque Obama on February 13, 2014, 01:02:16 PM
Quote from: amw on February 13, 2014, 12:36:56 PM
And what about the cycle by the fascinatingly obscure Peruvian pianist Ayahualpa Camaxtliatepec? Some strange interpretive choices (I believe this may be the slowest "Tempest" I've ever heard) but well worth having for comparison. Amazon doesn't list it but I know there are a few copies still in stock at the Inca Music Centre on the slopes of Nevado Santo Domingo, a two-day donkey ride from Cuzco. (You may want to call in advance to check—ask for Manuel)

Great response to arrogance and narcissism :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 13, 2014, 01:04:56 PM
Quote from: Baroque Obama on February 13, 2014, 01:00:14 PM"Availability" of course depends on many things Brian.



No it doesn't.  Available means available - as in it can be purchased.  I can only surmise that you not addressing my questions means that you either lied about having all available cycles, or you are ignorant of what is available.  Which is it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 13, 2014, 02:21:35 PM
And everybody simmerdownnow (http://youtu.be/qkyVl0OYWTQ).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2014, 03:55:14 PM
MusicWeb just sent me a batch of three new Beethoven sonata CDs to review.

(http://images.cdbaby.name/s/t/stevenmasi2.jpg)

Steven Masi plays Op. 14 (both), Op. 57 "Appassionata", and Op. 110
Here's my review of Masi Volume I (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Sept13/Beethoven_sonatas_Masi.htm)
By the way, the executive producer is one David Strathairn.

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/28948106400.jpg)

Maria Perrotta plays Opp. 109-111, plus a Scriabin etude which is placed last as an encore.

(http://www.msrcd.com/cdcovers/cd433.jpg)

Inna Faliks plays the Eroica Variations and Op. 111, plus the Polonaise in C, which I've somehow never heard.

All three of these were recorded in January-February 2013, with the Perrotta being recorded live in one night. And I still have to review James Brawn's Pathetique-Moonlight-Waldstein album.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on February 13, 2014, 05:34:17 PM
Currently listening to Jonathan Biss's latest installment (Vol. 3: Op. 28, Op. 31/1, Op. 53

Not as hard edged as some others I've heard;  more lyrical and softer touches, seems somewhat slower paced, especially in the Waldstein. Overall approach is coherent, just not quite how I prefer the music to be played.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2014, 05:47:15 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 13, 2014, 05:34:17 PMseems somewhat slower paced

Even in the Pastoral?!? What performances do you know that are significantly faster than Biss's Pastoral?

The Waldstein is indeed slower and softer-edged, but that is actually how I like my Waldsteins (except Brautigam and a few other exceptions).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on February 13, 2014, 05:56:48 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2014, 05:47:15 PM
Even in the Pastoral?!? What performances do you know that are significantly faster than Biss's Pastoral?

The Waldstein is indeed slower and softer-edged, but that is actually how I like my Waldsteins (except Brautigam and a few other exceptions).

I did make specific reference to Op. 53, not Op. 28!

The Pastoral in fact did not seem very much out of the average from what I remember of other performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baroque Obama on February 14, 2014, 05:45:55 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 13, 2014, 01:04:56 PM


No it doesn't.  Available means available - as in it can be purchased.  I can only surmise that you not addressing my questions means that you either lied about having all available cycles, or you are ignorant of what is available.  Which is it?

Surmise all the way, but if you guess only two options that are self-absorbed...

The answer you were looking for is, my wife is a kindergarten teacher and thought me how to deal with the likes of you. But I must admit I am not equipped to deal with a whole nursery so I'll follow my own statement which one of your enablers kindly reminded me, not understanding that I was proving my point for the reasonable audience, that is if there are left any...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 14, 2014, 05:57:49 AM
Quote from: Baroque Obama on February 14, 2014, 05:45:55 AM
Surmise all the way, but if you guess only two options that are self-absorbed...



Curious, you post words like "arrogance" and phrases like "self-absorbed", yet it was you who previously posted that Schnabel and Badura-Skoda abuse Beethoven's music.  They are renowned artists, and you are a nobody.  Who offers greater insights into Beethoven?

As to the rest of your feeble attempt at a sanctimonious post, you are clearly an ignoramus when it comes to what Beethoven is available, but you can't admit it.  The internet is really quite easy to use.  You should spend a bit of time figuring out how to use it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 14, 2014, 10:03:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2014, 09:13:51 AM
And yet I think that Heidsieck is slightly irritating and full of mannerisms. Rubato's a strange thing, and like lovers' faces, what you like and dislike is so subjective that really, you have to suck everything and see. I'm no more positive about Gulda 2, though I'm not sure I'd noticed that  it's full of mannerisms. Can you point out an example or two, so I can listen?

Anyway the main thing I want to say is that no discussion of Richter's Beethoven should leave out his wonderful op 14s on BBC Legends.

(http://pixhost.me/share/img/2006_06_1/1.jpg)

Of course, but I was only mentioning the best Richter versions available. Unfortunately this BBCL CD is not...

Quote from: Todd on February 13, 2014, 10:39:49 AM


Heidsieck's set is most definitely filled with mannerisms - it's one of the most mannered sets in existence, or at least among the 75.75 complete sets I've heard.  That written, I find it among the best cycles yet recorded.  I find Gulda far less mannered, and he, too, is among the best ever.

In your opinion, of course. I've rarely encountered people who are really interested in piano interpretation and ine Beethoven sonatas, and who like Gulda...
But that's just like people who like Kempff, when I barely consider him as a "pianist". ;) As I was saying in introduction, all that is a matter of taste and, sometimes, I wonder if everyone hears the same thing. I'll think about a blind comparison on a Beethoven sonata in the near future (when this experience was done on other forums, Arrau, Grinberg and Edwin Fischer were generally ahead)...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 14, 2014, 10:58:05 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 14, 2014, 10:03:02 AMIn your opinion, of course.



I wrote it, so of course it's my opinion.  Writing IMO, or some variation thereof, on a message board is an exercise in redundancy. 

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 14, 2014, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 14, 2014, 10:03:02 AM
I've rarely encountered people who are really interested in piano interpretation and in Beethoven sonatas, and who like Gulda...

It is us, the not so rarae aves of the musical world!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 11:12:21 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 14, 2014, 10:03:02 AM

But that's just like people who like Kempff, when I barely consider him as a "pianist". ;)

Are you talking about the stereo recordings or the mono or both ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 14, 2014, 11:19:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 11:12:21 AMAre you talking about the stereo recordings or the mono ?



And when discussing mono, is one considering the 78s or the tape recordings.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 14, 2014, 11:23:05 AM
I wonder what words Cosi bel do would use to describe HJ Lim, if he heard her.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 14, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 14, 2014, 10:03:02 AM
But that's just like people who like Kempff, when I barely consider him as a "pianist". ;)

In a way you may be right, because Kempff is first and foremost a great musician. If he had chosen to play organ, violoncello or whatever instead of piano, I am sure, that he would have become a great musician on that instrument.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 14, 2014, 05:57:49 AM


Curious, you post words like "arrogance" and phrases like "self-absorbed", yet it was you who previously posted that Schnabel and Badura-Skoda abuse Beethoven's music.  They are renowned artists, and you are a nobody.  Who offers greater insights into Beethoven?

As to the rest of your feeble attempt at a sanctimonious post, you are clearly an ignoramus when it comes to what Beethoven is available, but you can't admit it.  The internet is really quite easy to use.  You should spend a bit of time figuring out how to use it.

Forgive my English first. Obama must have logged off completely so I see no harm. I teach in University of Milan but I had this interaction with him trugh scholar channels and he has a doctorate dissertation of analysis of complete Beethoven's Sonatas at Yale University in USA which Murray Perahia the pianist directly contacted him. I assume one can access to that publication by way of JSTOR or at Yale University's Library Services but publishing his actual name here should be against privacy so keep it to yourselfs
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 14, 2014, 12:44:46 PM
Quote from: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 12:34:23 PM[Baroque] Obama...has a doctorate dissertation of analysis of complete Beethoven's Sonatas at Yale University


Assuming this is true, it seems odd that a person of such learning would take to using words like "abuse" when describing Schnabel, but now he can't (unless he reregisters) describe why that may be.  And it doesn't address his inability to properly use the words "all" or "available."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 01:00:18 PM
Well maybe English wasn't his first language --  "abuses rhythmic freedom following Schnabel example" is something no native English speaker would say. Maybe it was just a typo.

That discussion is annoying because, basically, he makes claims and draws distinctions. He says that Badura Skoda ignores Beethoven's directives, he distinguishes between artistry and musicality, music. But it's all so taciturn  that it comes across as assertion. Imagine saying such things in a university seminar without backing things up and providing examples and explanations. No-one would take you seriously, someone would knock you down and then you'd be promptly ignored and treated as someone stupid.

And I guess that's what happened here. This board is clearly not a university seminar, but it's not completely without rigor, I hope.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 01:09:50 PM
English is my third language. It is his language. He is American. If you wait a little I can't directly copy his publication because it is illegal in my University but I will search Schnabel. The Appendix C writes 54 complete recordings between first from 1930-1934 and last 2001. My area is different and it'is not my place but no one's place to judge too. Because if there is a material mistake there is one year objection time in Yale to prevent it publish. It is not important too. You look from a narrow glass maybe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 01:21:19 PM
Todd and Mandryka, yes there is a passage I find about Schnabel. It goes to a footnote that says -Citation from footnote 51- but the footnotes appendix are missing for me. I'll paste here if you confirm you won't quote what I write because I want to delete it after you read and confirm you read, OK?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 01:38:28 PM
So you don't confirm and I can't do it. I'm sorry if I interrupted but you seemed care about Beethoven so I wanted to clear a knowledge. It is coming to midnight here so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 01:40:57 PM
You're going to a lot of trouble and it's very laudable. I think if there's any risk of breaching a confidence or causing offence in quoting the thesis, it's best not to do it. After all, the author can always reregister if he choses.

I'll just mention that I find studies which analyse performance practice on record most helpful where they attempt to explain the practice, to identify the aesthetic principles which underly the performance. If Schanbel does X or Y, I want to know why. I've not come across that sort of thing for Beethoven. I have for J S Bach. I'd be especially interested to read a study on the recorded interpretations of the Missa Solemnis, as this is something which occupies me a lot at the moment. But I haven't managed to find one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 01:48:28 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 01:40:57 PM
You're going to a lot of trouble and it's very laudable. I think if there's any risk of breaching a confidence or causing offence in quoting the thesis, it's best not to do it. After all, the author can always reregister if he choses.

I'll just mention that I find studies which analyse performance practice on record most helpful where they attempt to explain the practice, to identify the aesthetic principles which underly the performance. If Schanbel does X or Y, I want to know why. I've not come across that sort of thing for Beethoven. I have for J S Bach.
I will read all of this on my vacation but his writing way is and reasoning is about explaining practices compared to the composer's scores and Beethoven's pupils' intentions. So you might like it. I'll send an e-mail to him mentioning your interest. His responses are upset but if you are close to Connecticut you can read it freely
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 01:56:32 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 01:00:18 PM
Well maybe English wasn't his first language --  "abuses rhythmic freedom following Schnabel example" is something no native English speaker would say. Maybe it was just a typo.

That discussion is annoying because, basically, he makes claims and draws distinctions. He says that Badura Skoda ignores Beethoven's directives, he distinguishes between artistry and musicality, music. But it's all so taciturn  that it comes across as assertion. Imagine saying such things in a university seminar without backing things up and providing examples and explanations. No-one would take you seriously, someone would knock you down and then you'd be promptly ignored and treated as someone stupid.

And I guess that's what happened here. This board is clearly not a university seminar, but it's not completely without rigor, I hope.

I didn't find a part writing Badura-Skoda ignores but there is a sentence written Schnabel at odds with Beethoven's more serene directives in terms of tempo he means
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 14, 2014, 02:02:48 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 13, 2014, 12:04:04 PM

Yes, it is most unfortunate that Lucchesini is OOP.  Maybe it will come back to market.  It should.

I wonder if BO has any comments on Michael Houstoun's set or Shoko Sugitani's set, too.  Both are currently available and have been for years, but pretty much no one who posts online ever comments about them.

Todd, the Houstoun set is available here

http://www.43.co.nz/brands/Trust-Records.html

Though you may baulk at the price of the 4 sets - I certainly did. However, I have heard them all as well as hearing Houstoun's live LvB. The cycle is very good indeed with no real interpretative idiosynchrasies. It can be heard on NML but unfortunately they don't have your touchstone works, Op 31. The fact that Houstoun studied with Rudolf Serkin for two years might explain why I like his Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 14, 2014, 02:07:19 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 01:40:57 PM
I'd be especially interested to read a study on the recorded interpretations of the Missa Solemnis, as this is something which occupies me a lot at the moment.

Yeah, that Mass is A-OK, eh?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 14, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
Off-topic, but had I stayed in academia I would have loved for my research to all be freely available to the public. My mentor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Jardine) had the same mentality; when someone told her, "People are illegally uploading scans of your old, out-of-print books!" she said "Oh thank goodness, people can read them!"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on February 14, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
Seems we have a couple of newer members who want to make a big splash by dumping on a few revered pianists.  It's a time-honored activity to try to lift oneself above the herd, but it doesn't work with folks who know their music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 14, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
Quote from: Rambaldi on February 14, 2014, 01:09:50 PM
English is my third language. It is his language. He is American.

  He may be American, but English isn't his first language.  Maybe he's using voice recognition software and failed to check whether it registered correctly, but his syntax and grammar are way off, and in a way I can't even place.  By the way, I teach English as a second language, and have for most of the last 20 years.
   Also, speaking as a professional academic, just being an academic, or a would-be academic, doesn't guarantee that someone is capable of making a rational argument. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Rambaldi on February 15, 2014, 08:53:17 AM
Quote from: Baklavaboy on February 14, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
  He may be American, but English isn't his first language.  Maybe he's using voice recognition software and failed to check whether it registered correctly, but his syntax and grammar are way off, and in a way I can't even place.  By the way, I teach English as a second language, and have for most of the last 20 years.
 

So?


I wanted to write for the last 2 remarks "you are lucky you don't live in Italia because we call those kind of people bigot" but I checked wiki:
Bigotry: Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

So you are universal.

You must have the right to enjoy your uneducated, prejudged and personal information yourself but awareness is the beginning to forward step we say.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 15, 2014, 09:02:04 AM
I'm 12 and what is this?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 15, 2014, 10:01:14 AM
Listening to the new Maria Perrotta album now. I don't know who Maria Perrotta is, but with Op. 109 just finished and Op. 110 starting, she's striking me as a modern-instrument (Steinway) Penelope Crawford: hasn't put a foot wrong, and is capable of summoning the "magic" when necessary. The only real eccentricity, so far, is a tendency to widely varied tempos in the first movements - starting slow, accelerating gradually but muchly. Applause after each sonata. Surpassing my expectations for sure.

EDIT: Finished the CD. Maybe not one of The Greatest, but certainly very, very good. I wish Decca had included a biography of the performer (and cut out the applause). Will listen many more times with pleasure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on February 15, 2014, 11:03:10 AM
Quote from: Rambaldi on February 15, 2014, 08:53:17 AM
So?


I wanted to write for the last 2 remarks "you are lucky you don't live in Italia because we call those kind of people bigot" but I checked wiki:
Bigotry: Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

So you are universal.

You must have the right to enjoy your uneducated, prejudged and personal information yourself but awareness is the beginning to forward step we say.

I hate trolls... :(  Fortunately we see them rarely here, though this one seems to keep returning.
Does anyone remember a previous poster with a short-lived membership, called "The Raven"? Same guy... I didn't get the chance to check if Baroque Obama, but The Raven possibly had an alter ego as well...

Anyway, back to "normality"   ;)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on February 15, 2014, 11:11:11 AM
I rather liked the moniker Baroque Obama.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on February 15, 2014, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 15, 2014, 11:11:11 AM
I rather liked the moniker Baroque Obama.

Me too.  :)  Though whining about Schnabel's Beethoven did not quite match.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2014, 12:06:50 PM
I've had a brief discussion about this privately and it seems that one thing that Baroque Obama was interested in is the way Schnabel plays the  final movement of op 111, you know the way he takes the arietta so very slowly and then changes the pulse frequently within and among the variations. This may be an example of putting artistry before musicality, of  "[ignoring] Beethoven's directives" Badura Skoda also changes the pulse, following Schnabel's example (he says, I haven't checked.)

I knew that this practice is pretty widespread and in my head I'd always associated it with Schnabel.  One thing I'll follow up is the thought that only three recorded performances play op 111/ii with a steady pulse (more or less) -- Buchbinder, Rosen (I can't find my CD, annoyingly. And anyway I think he recorded it more than once, as did Buchbinder.) And Jacob Lateiner, who I know nothing about.

It'll be interesting to just check what so called HIP pianists do. Beghin, for example.

Oh, and I'll use this board to thank Rambaldi for sending me a PM.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 15, 2014, 12:21:48 PM
Just to add to what Mandryka is talking about, we discussed this topic back on p. 126 of this thread, where we brought up Robert Winter's essay that compares recordings of Op. 111 in terms of tempo fluctuation between variations. Read from the bottom of page 41 through page 46 here if you're interested: http://books.google.com/books?id=rfESTJIEYaUC&pg=PA41
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2014, 11:12:21 AM
Are you talking about the stereo recordings or the mono or both ?

Both. Kempff is a little better in his earlier mono set, but anyway he is never more than a fair amateur pianist, at his best. I do not understand what (so many (but less and less)) people find so alluring in his playing. I just hear bad articulation, confused phrasing, and a total absence of a line, a speech, any architecture whatsoever. This just irritates me. I still try sometimes. I just did, I listened to the first couple minutes of the Waldstein sonata before I changed to Serkin in the same music, just to clean my ears.
And this is not only in Beethoven, Kempff is just as bad anywhere (Schubert for instance).

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 14, 2014, 11:23:05 AM
I wonder what words Cosi bel do would use to describe HJ Lim, if he heard her.

I did. My word would be : lol
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 15, 2014, 05:06:52 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

Waldstein or Op. 109 or maybe Op. 110? I was thinking about Op. 109. I also wonder if you would like to have me co-host the game, because I feel like you have all the "classic" recordings, whereas I have probably a half-dozen interesting recordings from the last 10-15 years, and our collections may have so little overlap that between us we could achieve a good diversity.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 15, 2014, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

101 or 106 or 109. (Although in 106 I'd probably just vote for whoever played the first movement closest to Beethoven's metronome mark. If it was supposed to be Allegro grandioso e largamente, half note = 76, he would have said so.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2014, 05:29:30 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?
I think you said you already did 109 (which would have been my first choice), so then it would be either Op 110 or Waldstein I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 15, 2014, 05:39:07 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
Both. Kempff is a little better in his earlier mono set, but anyway he is never more than a fair amateur pianist, at his best. I do not understand what (so many (but less and less)) people find so alluring in his playing. I just hear bad articulation, confused phrasing, and a total absence of a line, a speech, any architecture whatsoever.

  I like Kempff a lot, but freely confess I'm an absolute amateur and could be easily fooled. Still, I find this hard to believe.  Brendel and others speak very highly of Kempff. Or perhaps you would say the same about Brendel?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2014, 10:32:45 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
Both. Kempff is a little better in his earlier mono set, but anyway he is never more than a fair amateur pianist, at his best. I do not understand what (so many (but less and less)) people find so alluring in his playing. I just hear bad articulation, confused phrasing, and a total absence of a line, a speech, any architecture whatsoever. This just irritates me. I still try sometimes. I just did, I listened to the first couple minutes of the Waldstein sonata before I changed to Serkin in the same music, just to clean my ears.
And this is not only in Beethoven, Kempff is just as bad anywhere (Schubert for instance).

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

So,let's take this  op 53/i. I'd quite like to dig a bit deeper into what you're hearing. If you have the time, can you spell it out - I have the recordings so you can refer to timings?

For what it's worth, some of the sonatas that I can remember enjoying from Kempff (mono) are  2/2, 7, 27/1, 26, 28, 49, 54, 78, 81a, 90, 101, 106, 110, 111.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2014, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 14, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
In a way you may be right, because Kempff is first and foremost a great musician. If he had chosen to play organ, violoncello or whatever instead of piano, I am sure, that he would have become a great musician on that instrument.

I can't resist asking you whether you enjoy his Goldberg Variations. I've always wondered why he took that approach to ornamentation there - he's more conventional in WTC (which I like less I think)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2014, 01:35:48 AM
Quote from: ritter on February 14, 2014, 07:07:35 AM
Long out of print, this complete set of Beethoven's Piano sonatas by pianist / composer Michaël Levinas is back in the catalogue. It seems to be much cheaper in Europe (€35 at amazon.es) than in America ($124 at amazon.com, and "temporarily out of stock" to boot)...

(http://imageshack.com/a/img845/110/jqc7.png)
Ludwig van Beethoven: 32 piano sonatas - Michaël Levinas (9 Cd's, Adès)
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9KERMG/nectarandambrUK-21)
Of Levinas' Beethoven, I only know the Mondschein, the Waldstein, the Appassionata and the Hammerklavier (which are included in an interesting 11-CD set called "Double Face" that covers Levinas' activity both as composer and pianist).

I find Levinas' Beethoven quite convincing (not that I'm an expert, by any means  :-[ ), and was particularly impressed by his Waldstein...

Splendid. Thanks so much for the information. Already integrated: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Cheers,
jfl
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2014, 01:48:46 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM


By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

Op 111, or maybe just op 111/ii

Do you know about this one?

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4858-ecoute-comparee-de-la-sonate-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

with a summary of the results here

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4907-beethoven-sonate-n32-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

We could do it much better if there were enough interested people because we'd have access to many more interesting performances. HIP ones, unpublished ones, hard to find ones etc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 05:20:12 AM
Yes I know the 2 comparisons on op. 109 and 111 that had been done on Classik. I do not follow exactly the same method, but still I wouldn't do one myself, I think it would be better to explore a different sonata. And the results are still valid in my opinion, the rare Edwin Fischer reading of op. 111 is still among my very top favourites and it is a shame it is not more widely known.

I also don't think I would do a comparison on op. 110, on Hammerklavier. Even on Waldstein I have doubts. I think a comparison could be more interesting on a sonata not everyone knows, and that even fierce Beethovenians don't listen to very often. It would allow versions to be heard with less prejudices from everyone, and might (partly) avoid different versions to be easily recognized.
amw's proposal of op. 101 is quite interesting. Anyway I'll think about it when the Mahler 2 listening ends, so maybe a Beethoven comparison this summer (if I have time...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 05:34:22 AM
Quote from: Baklavaboy on February 15, 2014, 05:39:07 PM
  I like Kempff a lot, but freely confess I'm an absolute amateur and could be easily fooled. Still, I find this hard to believe.  Brendel and others speak very highly of Kempff. Or perhaps you would say the same about Brendel?
Not the same exactly. Brendel is just uninteresting. His playing is neat. I just don't care about Brendel. He is one of the most forgettable pianist there are.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 05:34:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2014, 10:32:45 PM
So,let's take this  op 53/i. I'd quite like to dig a bit deeper into what you're hearing. If you have the time, can you spell it out - I have the recordings so you can refer to timings?

For what it's worth, some of the sonatas that I can remember enjoying from Kempff (mono) are  2/2, 7, 27/1, 26, 28, 49, 54, 78, 81a, 90, 101, 106, 110, 111.

Well, this is less a problem of what I'm hearing that of what I'm not. To be clear, I'm not that concerned by technical difficulties, wrong notes, etc., that can be found even in Richter best performances. The problem is that Kempff is not precise, there is a lack of structure, of rythmic clarity. Just listen to the first minute of his Waldstein and compare to any good pianist, Serkin, Richter, Gilels, Grinberg, Schnabel, Gieseking, Lupu (not all are my favourites in this sonata, but all are giving a faitful reading), really anyone (I even like Cziffra in the Waldstein !).
To take another example, Nat is not at all the more precise, but you never feel that he loses his footing. This is the case with Kempff.
If you don't hear the big difference then, I don't know what to say, maybe we simply don't have the same perception of this music...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 16, 2014, 06:53:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2014, 10:35:04 PM
I can't resist asking you whether you enjoy his Goldberg Variations. I've always wondered why he took that approach to ornamentation there - he's more conventional in WTC (which I like less I think)

I have not heard Kempff´s DG recording of the Goldberg variations, but around the time of the recording I attended a recital, Kempff playing the Goldberg variations. To be fair I did not like his interpretation. Too smooth and sweet, too few contrasts, too much use of sustaining pedal. I would not call his view romantic, but just dull. But this does not prevent me from considering him a great musician with a special affinity to Beethoven and Brahms.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 16, 2014, 08:25:37 AM
Miss one day, and look at all the posts.  And Rambaldi left, after making sure to go on about the word bigot.  Haven't seen someone go on about that word since David Ross.  A coincidence, I'm sure.



Quote from: Holden on February 14, 2014, 02:02:48 PM
Todd, the Houstoun set is available here

http://www.43.co.nz/brands/Trust-Records.html


The price is indeed a bit high, but I have the MP3s of the late sonatas, and at some point I have to get the rest of the set.  What I've heard shows promise.



Quote from: Brian on February 15, 2014, 10:01:14 AMListening to the new Maria Perrotta album now. I don't know who Maria Perrotta is, but with Op. 109 just finished and Op. 110 starting, she's striking me as a modern-instrument (Steinway) Penelope Crawford


Now that's intriguing.

*EDIT*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 01:28:34 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2014, 01:48:46 AM
Op 111, or maybe just op 111/ii

Do you know about this one?

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4858-ecoute-comparee-de-la-sonate-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

with a summary of the results here

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4907-beethoven-sonate-n32-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

We could do it much better if there were enough interested people because we'd have access to many more interesting performances. HIP ones, unpublished ones, hard to find ones etc.

I've been thinking... And opus 22 could also be a great candidate for a blind comparison.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 16, 2014, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 05:34:48 AM
The problem is that Kempff is not precise, there is a lack of structure, of rythmic clarity.

Could it be, that this is intended? So what you hear as lack of precision is meant as microagogic expression?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 16, 2014, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 01:28:34 PM
And opus 22 could also be a great candidate for a blind comparison.

If I could play the piano, and if I could then record a Beethoven sonata cycle, I would begin with Op. 22. It just feels like an exciting beginning to a journey. (And it contains a wide range of expressive demands.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 16, 2014, 01:58:00 PM
Could it be, that this is intended? So what you hear as lack of precision is meant as microagogic expression?
I am not unfamiliar with that. Serkin is a great example of what you call "microagocic expression" and that I describe as a kind of "trembling" that just gives a lot of expression to a line. That's not what I hear in Kempff. There is nothing prepared in this lack of precision. It seems that Kempff is too frequently coping with his technical limitations to prepare anything.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 16, 2014, 03:19:16 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 16, 2014, 02:07:59 PM
If I could play the piano, and if I could then record a Beethoven sonata cycle, I would begin with Op. 22. It just feels like an exciting beginning to a journey. (And it contains a wide range of expressive demands.)

I've been playing through it a lot recently, and the more often I play it and the more closely I examine the score, the more subtle motivic/thematic relationships between the movements I find. It's really a standout work I think, and definitely a personal favorite of mine.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 02:38:01 PM
I am not unfamiliar with that. Serkin is a great example of what you call "microagocic expression" and that I describe as a kind of "trembling" that just gives a lot of expression to a line. That's not what I hear in Kempff. There is nothing prepared in this lack of precision. It seems that Kempff is too frequently coping with his technical limitations to prepare anything.

Okay, you're perfectly entitled to your taste in pianists, but to call Wilhelm Kempff technically incapable and an amateur is just silly.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 16, 2014, 03:19:16 PM
just silly.

Well, and one more insult. The Kempff-mania apparently drives to extreme behaviour. Who could have predicted that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 16, 2014, 04:01:32 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 16, 2014, 03:19:16 PM
Okay, you're perfectly entitled to your taste in pianists, but to call Wilhelm Kempff technically incapable and an amateur is just silly.

   Certainly it needs more validation. I got a Kempff set just because it seemed it was universally agreed that he is a fine player--with a plain, non-dramatic style, but technically excellent (which, no doubt could make him anathema to those who like a more assertive and adventurous musician). As a rather un-charismatic, low-key, non-self promoting type he certainly didn't do anything to fool people.  Is the world of classical music mysteriously delusional about Kempff, or is this opinion an outlier? Sorry, but it's hard not lean towards the latter. 

EDIT: a new one came up while I was typing. "Kempff mania"??  ???   Come on. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2014, 04:26:39 PM
When I think of Kempff in Beethoven, I inevitably think of Barenboim in Beethoven. Whatever you may think of them (and I am decidedly less enthusiastic about Barenboim), they both have a clear understanding and thorough feel for Beethoven's works. Whenever I listen to them, I cannot help but think that here was a pianist who really has something to say about the music. I say this not agreeing with all the decisions that both make when they play the works. Perhaps Kempff brings a lightness of touch when one wishes something weightier - but I personally enjoy this approach. Poetry in motion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on February 16, 2014, 05:52:28 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 15, 2014, 04:59:31 PM

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

What about one of the sonatas that don't get all the press, like Op. 27/1 (you know, the one that isn't the Moonlight),  one of the Op. 14s or (from the later ones) "A Therese"?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: trung224 on February 16, 2014, 06:32:39 PM
  I found Kempff played too understated in the middle-heroic sonatas like Appasionata, Waldstein or Hammerklavier. Nor did he bring the enigmatic quality Opus 110 and 111. Unlike Richter and Schnabel, who have improvisation in both tempo and phrasing throughout all movements, Kempff only did it occasionally some spakle moments in score, and played so beautifully in the remainder.  That kind of approach suites the early and middle sonatas really well, especially on the Pathetique, Op.27, or Op.31 No.3.
  In sum, Kempff is not really my absolutly favorite Beethoven interpreters, who are Schnabel, Edwin Fischer and Richter in his prime ( from 1950-1975), but I admired him. To me, saying him as amateur pianist is disgraceful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 07:05:31 PM
Put me firmly in the Kempff is The God of Beethoven camp. (Brendel is the God of Schubert.)  I really like a lot of others here, Lortie, Kovacevich, Ashkenazy, and they all have better sound, and for that reason I might recommend Ashkenazy to people (cheap Canada only edition). But for me Kempff is home.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2014, 10:39:22 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 05:34:48 AM
Well, this is less a problem of what I'm hearing that of what I'm not. To be clear, I'm not that concerned by technical difficulties, wrong notes, etc., that can be found even in Richter best performances. The problem is that Kempff is not precise, there is a lack of structure, of rythmic clarity. Just listen to the first minute of his Waldstein and compare to any good pianist, Serkin, Richter, Gilels, Grinberg, Schnabel, Gieseking, Lupu (not all are my favourites in this sonata, but all are giving a faitful reading), really anyone (I even like Cziffra in the Waldstein !).
To take another example, Nat is not at all the more precise, but you never feel that he loses his footing. This is the case with Kempff.
If you don't hear the big difference then, I don't know what to say, maybe we simply don't have the same perception of this music...

I don't think that Kempff's mono op 53/i is a high point, so I can see where you're coming from. The live Waldstein from 1961 is better.

But try Kempff in a sonata where he was more in his element, like op 2/2 or 10/3 or op 28 or op 109 or even op 106 or the mono op 111/ii. I think one reason I play Kempff's Beethoven is that he seems to have things to say in early and late Beethoven, which is really what I'm mostly interested in. I don't like the heroic middle period sonatas. One of the reasons I like his Hammerklavier so much is that it's not epic.

I think another thing to take into account is that, although his basic conception of the music is pretty stable, how successful he is in terms of execution is more variable. So you may have to hunt around for the recordings which show what he can do. Also his sound was more bass up, and more forceful, than the DG recordings suggest - that makes a difference too. Of course wherther you think it's worth the effort depends on how much you're intrigued by his conception of Beethoven.

Richter didn't play op 53 did he? I too like Cziffra's Waldstein, partly because it's not epic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 17, 2014, 01:50:56 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2014, 10:39:22 PMRichter didn't play op 53 did he?

No, of course not, these were just a few names of pianists I usually like in Beethoven.

About Kempff, well, I guess I explained my point sufficiently. I took the example of the Waldstein, but I don't feel different in other sonatas. His early sonatas are especially dull (as are his Schubert, by the way).

The blind comparison will be necessary to continue this discussion with an empirical basis.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 16, 2014, 05:52:28 PM
What about one of the sonatas that don't get all the press, like Op. 27/1 (you know, the one that isn't the Moonlight),  one of the Op. 14s or (from the later ones) "A Therese"?

The problem with these sonatas is that they also are among the less recorded sonatas, it limits the possibility of a comparison (just think : no Richter, no Serkin, ni Gilels (in op. 78)...  Otherwise this would have been a fine idea.
Now that I think, this is also a problem with op. 22 (no Gilels). Well, maybe op. 26 then...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2014, 03:22:01 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 07, 2014, 02:52:13 PM
Some may have notice that I'm a maniac about comparing versions. A few months back I've listened to all my Beethoven piano sonatas CDs and compared all of them. So now I know what my favourite versions are in each of the sonatas.

I sometimes like several versions, I haven't re-compared them already. I wait to get to a higher level of my comparison sickness.

I still have to listen again to Schnabel, and also to Frank. And probably a few isolated versions (at least a few Richter and Gilels I know I recently bought, or forgot during my comparison).

1 Schnabel 1934 / Grinberg 1966 / Richter 6/1976
2 Schnabel 1934 / Heidsieck / Annie Fischer 1977-78 / Guilels 1984
3 Richter 12/1/1975 / Annie Fischer 1977-78
4 Schnabel 1935 / Richter 12/1/1975 / Sokolov 3/1991
5 Schnabel 1935 / Backhaus 1963
6 Grinberg 1964
7 Richter 6/1976 / Guilels 21/9/1980 / Guilels 10/1980
8 Serkin 1962 / Annie Fischer 1977-78
9 Heidsieck
10 Arrau 4/1966 / Heidsieck / Annie Fischer 1977-78
11 Grinberg 1964 / Richter 20/10/68 / Annie Fischer 1977-78 / Michelangeli 7/4/1988
12 Serkin 8/12/1970 / Michelangeli 13/4/1982
13 Grinberg 1964 / Guilels 9/1980
14 Backhaus 10/1958 / Annie Fischer 2/11/1958 / Grinberg 1959 / Arrau 6/1962 / Guilels 9/1980
15 Edwin Fischer 28/7/1954 / Backhaus 11/1961
16 Schnabel 1935 / Backhaus 4/1969 / Serkin 1970
17 Schnabel 1934 / Richter 2/6/1965 /
18 Nat 1955 / Richter 2/6/1965 / Grinberg 1966 / Fischer 1977-78
19 Richter 17/1/65 / Backhaus 3/68 / Annie Fischer 1977-78 / Lupu 12/1977
20 Nat 1954 / Grinberg 1965 / Lupu 12/1977
21 Serkin 1975
22 Grinberg 65 / Arrau 10/65
23 Gieseking 23/6/1951 / Levy 1956 / Richter 1/11/1959 / Gilels 14/1/61 / Serkin 62
24 Schnabel 32 / Heidsieck
25 Backhaus 10/63 / Annie Fischer 1977-78
26 Gilels 12/74 / Gilels 10/80
27 Gilels 22/4/57
28 Yudina 1958 / Grinberg 1966 / Heidsieck / Sokolov 3/1991
29 Richter 2/6/75
30 Gieseking 1955 / Serkin 1976
31 Schnabel 32 / Edwin Fischer 38 / Serkin 71 / Guller 73 / Richter 10/91
32 Edwin Fischer 1954 / Serkin 67 / Michelangeli 1988 (Bregenz)

Overall, Richter is the pianist I prefer in Beethoven, followed by Serkin, Annie Fischer and Maria Grinberg (I really love also a pianist like Edwin Fischer but he only recorded a few sonatas).

So, first let me say that it's refreshing to meet someone who likes late Michelangeli. I'm very keen on the late recordings myself.

Second, thanks for drawing my attention to Grinberg's wonderful sonata 13, op 27/1. I'd not noticed how remarkable it is before. I'd also passed over her op 10/2, which is if anything even more valuable - I haven't been lucky in finding performances of this which I like. Have you heard her LP of op 53, and even more remarkable, the LP with op 13? If not, I'd be happy to let you have FLAC transfers.

And third, where is Sokolov's 3/91 recital to be found?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 17, 2014, 08:41:11 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 16, 2014, 03:57:09 PM
Well, and one more insult. The Kempff-mania apparently drives to extreme behaviour. Who could have predicted that.

Insult? Extreme behavior?

No.

Factual observation? Yes. You said that Kempff was technically incapable and an amateur. Those are factually incorrect statements, not just matters of opinion, so it is indeed "silly" to assert them.

Anyone who can play the difficult repertoire that Kempff played to great acclaim is not technically incapable. I'll grant that pianists like Richter, Michelangeli, Cziffra, Argerich, and Hamelin (to name a few) have possessed superior techniques, but that hardly makes Kempff technically incapable. What a bizarre claim to make!

And "amateur" means "nonprofessional" or "hobbyist." Kempff was a professional pianist, so it's simply factually incorrect to label him an amateur.

Calling you out on silliness is not the same as insulting you. And it's not extreme. I suggest you grow some thicker skin if you intend to continue conversing with others.

Oh, and "Kempff-mania"? That's even sillier.   ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 17, 2014, 11:28:31 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 17, 2014, 01:50:56 AM
Richter didn't play Op 53 did he?

No, of course not, these were just a few names of pianists I usually like in Beethoven.



Both as pianists and interpreters Richter and Kempff are diametrically opposed so I can see, as a Richterphile, why you might not like what Kempff does with Beethoven. The converse is also true with some describing Richter's LvB as bombastic so it's the old case of one man's meat being another man's poison.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 17, 2014, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 17, 2014, 11:28:31 AM
Both as pianists and interpreters Richter and Kempff are diametrically opposed so I can see, as a Richterphile, why you might not like what Kempff does with Beethoven. The converse is also true with some describing Richter's LvB as bombastic so it's the old case of one man's meat being another man's poison.

I like Richter, too!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on February 17, 2014, 01:59:15 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 17, 2014, 08:41:11 AM
And "amateur" means "nonprofessional" or "hobbyist." Kempff was a professional pianist, so it's simply factually incorrect to label him an amateur.
Well: amateur actually means soebody who does something out of love. No higher praise than that. While a professional is someody who does things for money.................
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 17, 2014, 02:35:56 PM
Trigger warning: pedantry

Quote from: The new erato on February 17, 2014, 01:59:15 PM
Well: amateur actually means soebody who does something out of love. No higher praise than that. While a professional is someody who does things for money.................

I think that you're giving the word's etymology too much weight.

Here is American Heritage:

Quote
1. One who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
2. Sports An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
3. One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.

And Oxford:

Quote
a person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis.
a person considered contemptibly inept at a particular activity

And Merriam-Webster:

Quote
1 : DEVOTEE, ADMIRER
2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science

AMATEUR, DILETTANTE, DABBLER, TYRO mean a person who follows a pursuit without attaining proficiency or professional status. AMATEUR often applies to one practicing an art without mastery of its essentials <a painting obviously done by an amateur>; in sports it may also suggest not so much lack of skill but avoidance of direct remuneration <remained an amateur despite lucrative offers>.

So I maintain that "nonprofessional" and "hobbyist" were pretty decent synonyms. Regardless, "hobbyist" isn't far from what you're getting at, is it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 17, 2014, 03:05:40 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 17, 2014, 08:41:11 AM
Insult? Extreme behavior?

No.

Factual observation? Yes. You said that Kempff was technically incapable and an amateur. Those are factually incorrect statements, not just matters of opinion, so it is indeed "silly" to assert them.

Anyone who can play the difficult repertoire that Kempff played to great acclaim is not technically incapable. I'll grant that pianists like Richter, Michelangeli, Cziffra, Argerich, and Hamelin (to name a few) have possessed superior techniques, but that hardly makes Kempff technically incapable. What a bizarre claim to make!

And "amateur" means "nonprofessional" or "hobbyist." Kempff was a professional pianist, so it's simply factually incorrect to label him an amateur.

Calling you out on silliness is not the same as insulting you. And it's not extreme. I suggest you grow some thicker skin if you intend to continue conversing with others.

Oh, and "Kempff-mania"? That's even sillier.   ;)

André Rieu is a professional violinist, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 17, 2014, 03:16:29 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2014, 03:22:01 AM
So, first let me say that it's refreshing to meet someone who likes late Michelangeli. I'm very keen on the late recordings myself.

Second, thanks for drawing my attention to Grinberg's wonderful sonata 13, op 27/1. I'd not noticed how remarkable it is before. I'd also passed over her op 10/2, which is if anything even more valuable - I haven't been lucky in finding performances of this which I like. Have you heard her LP of op 53, and even more remarkable, the LP with op 13? If not, I'd be happy to let you have FLAC transfers.

And third, where is Sokolov's 3/91 recital to be found?

Yes, Michelangeli is indeed exceptional in these late recordings. It is always a little difficult to appreciate any other version after having listened to him.

You're very welcome about Grinberg ! I know both versions of op. 13 by Grinberg (both very good) but only the stereo version of 53. The FLAC would be a greatly appreciated gift :)

Sokolov in Verona, march 1991 :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619fUs44ZUL.jpg)

(also in the Naive complete Sokolov recordings set)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 17, 2014, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 17, 2014, 03:05:40 PM
André Rieu is a professional violinist, too.

And...?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 17, 2014, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2014, 10:39:22 PM
I think another thing to take into account is that, although his basic conception of the music is pretty stable, how successful he is in terms of execution is more variable. So you may have to hunt around for the recordings which show what he can do. Also his sound was more bass up, and more forceful, than the DG recordings suggest - that makes a difference too.

Also having heard Kempff play Beethoven sonatas at a recital I can say, that this actually is true. He played among other sonatas op. 57, and the drive and passion in the finale did not leave much to S. Richter, neither the Melodya nor the RCA. On the other hand he played the first movement of op. 78 in a most delicate way. I also find Kempff´s pre-war recordings of Beethoven sonatas more passionate than his later 50es and 60es studio set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 17, 2014, 03:23:41 PM
MusicWeb has sent me three different "Waldstein" sonatas to review this month, so I may return to one of my favorite old tricks, and enlist GMG's help in a very fast blind listening game. The game would likely include a 5-minute sample of the sonata, not the complete piece, and I will use the three new releases I'm reviewing, as well as a couple of more famous recordings for comparison.

If there is interest, I can start this in 1-2 days.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 17, 2014, 03:31:15 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2014, 03:23:41 PM
MusicWeb has sent me three different "Waldstein" sonatas to review this month, so I may return to one of my favorite old tricks, and enlist GMG's help in a very fast blind listening game. The game would likely include a 5-minute sample of the sonata, not the complete piece, and I will use the three new releases I'm reviewing, as well as a couple of more famous recordings for comparison.

If there is interest, I can start this in 1-2 days.

I am interested.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 17, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
sure, I can do a Waldstein. Don't know that I've ever found a wholly satisfactory one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on February 17, 2014, 06:25:07 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2014, 03:23:41 PM
MusicWeb has sent me three different "Waldstein" sonatas to review this month, so I may return to one of my favorite old tricks, and enlist GMG's help in a very fast blind listening game. The game would likely include a 5-minute sample of the sonata, not the complete piece, and I will use the three new releases I'm reviewing, as well as a couple of more famous recordings for comparison.

If there is interest, I can start this in 1-2 days.

I'm interested. How does it work?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 17, 2014, 06:38:53 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 17, 2014, 06:25:07 PM
I'm interested. How does it work?

Very soon - tomorrow night, if the Naxos rep gets back to me with the last review copy - I will post six clips from six pianists' Waldstein sonata performances. The clips will contain half of the slow movement and a sizeable chunk of the finale; depending on the pianist, they're about 6-7 minutes each. You will listen to the clips and make any comments you want. For example, you might
- rank them in order from favorite to least
- explain why you prefer certain approaches
- say what pianist you're reminded of ("This sounds like so-and-so")
Three of the recordings will be brand-new releases and three are standards recorded over the past 40 years.

Although I removed the actual sound files, you can see how the game goes with this old example (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21316.0.html). :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on February 17, 2014, 06:50:23 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2014, 06:38:53 PM
Very soon - tomorrow night, if the Naxos rep gets back to me with the last review copy - I will post six clips from six pianists' Waldstein sonata performances. The clips will contain half of the slow movement and a sizeable chunk of the finale; depending on the pianist, they're about 6-7 minutes each. You will listen to the clips and make any comments you want. For example, you might
- rank them in order from favorite to least
- explain why you prefer certain approaches
- say what pianist you're reminded of ("This sounds like so-and-so")
Three of the recordings will be brand-new releases and three are standards recorded over the past 40 years.

Although I removed the actual sound files, you can see how the game goes with this old example (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21316.0.html). :)

Sounds good but I have an ipad, so I could not read the Brahms files.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 17, 2014, 06:56:30 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 17, 2014, 06:50:23 PM
Sounds good but I have an ipad, so I could not read the Brahms files.

I do MP3s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2014, 12:36:33 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 17, 2014, 03:16:29 PM
Yes, Michelangeli is indeed exceptional in these late recordings. It is always a little difficult to appreciate any other version after having listened to him.

You're very welcome about Grinberg ! I know both versions of op. 13 by Grinberg (both very good) but only the stereo version of 53. The FLAC would be a greatly appreciated gift :)

Sokolov in Verona, march 1991 :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619fUs44ZUL.jpg)

(also in the Naive complete Sokolov recordings set)

I'll PM you with the Grinberg LP.

I have that ear;y Sokolov CD == I'd completely forgotten about it. Senior moment. Did you hear him play op 106 last year? It used to be on youtube with terrible sound, and I went to a concert he gave in Lyon. I loved it, not at all fast and furious, but I think that's a good thing. I have a ticket to see him in Toulouse in May this year, I have no idea what he will play but I'm hoping it will include Chopin's 3rd sonata.

ABM had a heart attack after those Bregenz concerts in 1988, I'm sure it impacted his piano playing. But I think the recordings from 1988 show him embarking on a swan song, profounder than anything he did earlier. I saw him play op 111 in the Barbican in London in 1990.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 18, 2014, 01:16:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2014, 03:23:41 PM
MusicWeb has sent me three different "Waldstein" sonatas to review this month, so I may return to one of my favorite old tricks, and enlist GMG's help in a very fast blind listening game. The game would likely include a 5-minute sample of the sonata, not the complete piece, and I will use the three new releases I'm reviewing, as well as a couple of more famous recordings for comparison.

If there is interest, I can start this in 1-2 days.

I'd be interested in that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 18, 2014, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 18, 2014, 12:36:33 AM
I'll PM you with the Grinberg LP.

I have that ear;y Sokolov CD == I'd completely forgotten about it. Senior moment. Did you hear him play op 106 last year? It used to be on youtube with terrible sound, and I went to a concert he gave in Lyon. I loved it, not at all fast and furious, but I think that's a good thing. I have a ticket to see him in Toulouse in May this year, I have no idea what he will play but I'm hoping it will include Chopin's 3rd sonata.

ABM had a heart attack after those Bregenz concerts in 1988, I'm sure it impacted his piano playing. But I think the recordings from 1988 show him embarking on a swan song, profounder than anything he did earlier. I saw him play op 111 in the Barbican in London in 1990.

Having heard ABM play the op. 111 must certainly be a great memory.
I couldn't hear Sokolov last year, and he canceled in Paris this year... His program until summer (http://www.grigory-sokolov.com/program.htm#program) does include Chopin sonata no. 3. I might try to get tickets for one or other performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on February 18, 2014, 07:56:47 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 17, 2014, 01:50:56 AM
The problem with these sonatas is that they also are among the less recorded sonatas, it limits the possibility of a comparison (just think : no Richter, no Serkin, ni Gilels (in op. 78)...  Otherwise this would have been a fine idea.
Now that I think, this is also a problem with op. 22 (no Gilels). Well, maybe op. 26 then...

I possibly misunderstood your original intent, but I'll suggest it as a possible further refinement:  confine the comparison to those who have done complete cycles  (or near complete, which will allow Gilels to have his chance).  As Todd can verify, there are not a few pianists who have done so, and some not well known at all. 

If you are thinking in terms of a "Big Name Death Match" then a "big name" sonata would be essential, I agree, since some Big Name Pianists only did the Big Name Sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on February 18, 2014, 09:38:20 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 18, 2014, 07:56:47 AM
I possibly misunderstood your original intent, but I'll suggest it as a possible further refinement:  confine the comparison to those who have done complete cycles  (or near complete, which will allow Gilels to have his chance).  As Todd can verify, there are not a few pianists who have done so, and some not well known at all. 

If you are thinking in terms of a "Big Name Death Match" then a "big name" sonata would be essential, I agree, since some Big Name Pianists only did the Big Name Sonatas.

Well, I want to avoid the "big name sonatas", but I'd like to avoid sonatas that haven't been recorded by too many pianists. And after all, limiting the comparison to pianists who have done complete cycles would be unfaire, it would mean no Richter, no Serkin... And all complete cycles are not good, frankly I don't think Louis Lortie or Idil Biret must be in the comparison in any case (doesn't mean they won't, but I'll listen and do preselections as usual).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on February 18, 2014, 01:19:03 PM
Anyone know Anne Oland's set? I read a bad bad bad review. I have her Nielsen and it's fine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on February 18, 2014, 01:27:03 PM
I'd say the biggest names in Beethoven semi-cycles are Gilels, Richter, and Serkin. If you want all 3, then your choices are:
6,8,11,12,23,28,29,30,31

Oh, I should have included Pollini. Turns out, he has recorded all of those already.

Any of those except 11 and 28 will also get you Gould. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 18, 2014, 01:29:31 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 18, 2014, 01:19:03 PMAnyone know Anne Oland's set?



It's awful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 18, 2014, 01:34:24 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 18, 2014, 01:29:31 PM
It's awful.

A fair amateur, would you say?   ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on February 18, 2014, 01:55:21 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 18, 2014, 01:19:03 PM
Anyone know Anne Oland's set? I read a bad bad bad review. I have her Nielsen and it's fine.
Search her on Youtube if you dare!  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 18, 2014, 02:11:37 PM
I got curious and went ahead and searched for "Anne Øland Beethoven" on youtube. First one that popped up was Op. 10/1, so I clicked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD5HcCdMYaA

BANG!!! bda, bda, bda, bda, bda, dah dah, dah BANG!!!

And then at 0:19,

BANG!!! bda, bda, bda, BANG!!! BANG!!! bda, bda, bda, BANG!!! BANG!!!

I didn't think the whole thing was all bad, but jeeeez, chill out! This ain't Op. 13!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on February 18, 2014, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 18, 2014, 02:11:37 PM
I got curious and went ahead and searched for "Anne Øland Beethoven" on youtube. First one that popped up was Op. 10/1, so I clicked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD5HcCdMYaA

BANG!!! bda, bda, bda, bda, bda, dah dah, dah BANG!!!

And then at 0:19,

BANG!!! bda, bda, bda, BANG!!! BANG!!! bda, bda, bda, BANG!!! BANG!!!

I didn't think the whole thing was all bad, but jeeeez, chill out! This ain't Op. 13!
Indeed! This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4AQuVm6qlM), on the other hand, is pathétique indeed.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on February 18, 2014, 02:28:00 PM
Did Rachmaninov record any of the Beethoven sonatas?  I cannot find a reference to any, except for a Beethoven piano and violin sonata recorded with Fritz Kreisler.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on February 18, 2014, 02:34:06 PM
I listened to Oland on youtube a bit. Sounded like a grudge match.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 18, 2014, 02:43:15 PM
Just sampled Op. 22 and I've noticed the same pattern. It's like she's interpreting staccato marks as accents. To be fair, Beethoven did distinguish between "dot" staccato and "vertical-line" staccato, and probably the "vertical-line" type was indeed meant to be slightly accented and not quite as short as the "dot" type (although this is a controversial topic)... but what Øland is doing goes beyond that. Her default dynamic level seems to be an aggressive forte, and at times it seems that every other beat or so is accented. It's bizarre. She leaves herself little room to build intensity or highlight it once she's there. Sforzandos at ff sound almost no different from accents in "softer" passages.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjPuokenCyo
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 18, 2014, 02:44:42 PM
Quote from: North Star on February 18, 2014, 02:20:19 PM
Indeed! This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4AQuVm6qlM), on the other hand, is pathétique indeed.  ::)

Speaking of Op. 13, Brautigam was eye-opening here for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 19, 2014, 10:54:15 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 18, 2014, 02:28:00 PM
Did Rachmaninov record any of the Beethoven sonatas?  I cannot find a reference to any, except for a Beethoven piano and violin sonata recorded with Fritz Kreisler.

Unfortunately no. I say unfortunately because they were in his concert repertoire and he wanted to record them. However,  a certain producer at RCA didn't reckon they would sell.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on February 19, 2014, 10:56:11 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 19, 2014, 10:54:15 AM
Unfortunately no. I say unfortunately because they were in his concert repertoire and he wanted to record them. However,  a certain producer at RCA didn't reckon they would sell.

Wow!  What a loss!  Many thanks for the information.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 19, 2014, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 18, 2014, 02:44:42 PM
Speaking of Op. 13, Brautigam was eye-opening here for me.

...and me. I was trying to imagine what the first movement, as played by Brautigam, would sound like on a modern piano and I suspect that it would not be good. However, it works so wonderfully well on this instrument.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2014, 12:57:11 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 15, 2014, 12:21:48 PM
Just to add to what Mandryka is talking about, we discussed this topic back on p. 126 of this thread, where we brought up Robert Winter's essay that compares recordings of Op. 111 in terms of tempo fluctuation between variations. Read from the bottom of page 41 through page 46 here if you're interested: http://books.google.com/books?id=rfESTJIEYaUC&pg=PA41

Two pianists who seem to maintain a very stable background pulse in op 111/ii are Tom Beghin and Sofronitsky (1952.). I think, I don't really trust my own judgement about this.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 21, 2014, 02:10:55 PM
.
[asin]B00I0VTO8K[/asin]

[asin]B00HZ86874[/asin]



A couple upcoming releases.  I've made it through all of Ehlen's discs so far, so I might as well go for volume 7, and Ms Ugorskaja is going for some good 'uns.  A new cycle, one hopes?


[EDIT]  Looks like Ms Ugorskaja, Anatol Ugorski's daughter, already recorded 106 and 111.  May have to sample both at the same time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 21, 2014, 02:37:57 PM
For some reason the other day I had the odd desire to compare a bunch of Hammerklaviers on NML in search of a good first movement. I'm not generally a fan of any 106/i much over 10 minutes, but almost every recording I found took it at a very broad tempo—Schnabel, Gieseking & Korstick's tempi are much better, but the first two don't have technique or sound quality on their side, whereas Korstick (while his fast movements are pretty much ideal tempo-wise) oddly plays the slow movement about twice as slow as it should be.

So any suggestions from our resident Beethoven collectors?

This is a very basic outline of the sort of thing I was hoping to find—
First movement - 8'-9' (with expo repeat), crisply articulated.
Second movement - 2'-2'30, a certain degree of insanity is desirable
Third movement - Not 29', or for that matter 12' (hello HJ Lim). Otherwise, so long as there's poetry and soul and that kind of thing, I'm flexible
Last movement - 11' ish, but this is a tough one, so if all the notes are there in the right order I can live with slower tempi
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 21, 2014, 03:01:07 PM
Quote from: amw on February 21, 2014, 02:37:57 PM
For some reason the other day I had the odd desire to compare a bunch of Hammerklaviers on NML in search of a good first movement. I'm not generally a fan of any 106/i much over 10 minutes, but almost every recording I found took it at a very broad tempo—Schnabel, Gieseking & Korstick's tempi are much better, but the first two don't have technique or sound quality on their side, whereas Korstick (while his fast movements are pretty much ideal tempo-wise) oddly plays the slow movement about twice as slow as it should be.

So any suggestions from our resident Beethoven collectors?

This is a very basic outline of the sort of thing I was hoping to find—
First movement - 8'-9' (with expo repeat), crisply articulated.
Second movement - 2'-2'30, a certain degree of insanity is desirable
Third movement - Not 29', or for that matter 12' (hello HJ Lim). Otherwise, so long as there's poetry and soul and that kind of thing, I'm flexible
Last movement - 11' ish, but this is a tough one, so if all the notes are there in the right order I can live with slower tempi

Friedrich Gulda?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on February 21, 2014, 04:07:22 PM
Heidsieck almost meets your requirements--except of course in the movement you're most interested in.

Timings are  11.34/2.35/18.20/11.28
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 21, 2014, 07:16:04 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 21, 2014, 03:01:07 PM
Friedrich Gulda?

Yes, might be what I'm looking for. 9'28 is a little conservative (if Beethoven's metronome markings are followed exactly the timing should be ~7'55 plus rits and fermatas—8'30 to 8'45 is a realistic minimum) but his playing does sound very strong from what I've heard, sort of like what Schnabel was trying to do. I'll keep an ear out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2014, 09:39:34 PM
Quote from: amw on February 21, 2014, 02:37:57 PM
For some reason the other day I had the odd desire to compare a bunch of Hammerklaviers on NML in search of a good first movement. I'm not generally a fan of any 106/i much over 10 minutes, but almost every recording I found took it at a very broad tempo—Schnabel, Gieseking & Korstick's tempi are much better, but the first two don't have technique or sound quality on their side, whereas Korstick (while his fast movements are pretty much ideal tempo-wise) oddly plays the slow movement about twice as slow as it should be.

So any suggestions from our resident Beethoven collectors?

This is a very basic outline of the sort of thing I was hoping to find—
First movement - 8'-9' (with expo repeat), crisply articulated.
Second movement - 2'-2'30, a certain degree of insanity is desirable
Third movement - Not 29', or for that matter 12' (hello HJ Lim). Otherwise, so long as there's poetry and soul and that kind of thing, I'm flexible
Last movement - 11' ish, but this is a tough one, so if all the notes are there in the right order I can live with slower tempi

Try Hans Richter-Haaser and Kempff (mono) and Beveridge Webster (I can let you have the files)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 21, 2014, 10:45:50 PM
Quote from: amw on February 21, 2014, 07:16:04 PM
Yes, might be what I'm looking for. 9'28 is a little conservative (if Beethoven's metronome markings are followed exactly the timing should be ~7'55 plus rits and fermatas—8'30 to 8'45 is a realistic minimum) but his playing does sound very strong from what I've heard, sort of like what Schnabel was trying to do. I'll keep an ear out.

Gulda's probably my favorite in Op. 106. He plays with great clarity and momentum in the outer movements.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 22, 2014, 06:52:03 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 21, 2014, 03:01:07 PMFriedrich Gulda?



Robert Taub is the only other name that comes to mind that meets all the criteria.  I haven't heard it since it is download only at the present time, but he's pretty quick throughout.  From what I have heard from Taub, I can't see him besting Gulda, but maybe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2014, 07:08:55 AM
Quote from: amw on February 21, 2014, 02:37:57 PM
Third movement - Not 29', or for that matter 12' (hello HJ Lim).

But her Adagio is so nice for those times when you must hear a Hammerklavier but just don't have all day to sit through a normally paced performance  :D

Looking at Hammerklaviers I own, I come to the same conclusion as others: Gulda is the only one who comes close to meeting your requirements.

Korstick                   9:08  2:24  28:42  11:09
Gulda                      9:30  2:20  13:44  11:23
Solomon                10:08  2:30  22:20  12:37
HJ Lim                    10:24  2:43  12:50  11:23
Guy                       10:38  2:49  17:03  12:55
Rosen                    10:40  2:28  18:23  11:48
Pollini                     10:44  2:42  17:11  12:14
Arrau                     10:48  2:30  20:26  11:43
Annie Fischer          11:01  2:53  19:51  11:25
Gould                    11:03  2:48  20:42  13:33
Backhaus               11:45  2:38  16:32  11:01
Gilels                     12:24  2:53  19:51  13:38
Barenboim (EMI)     13:13  3:04  21:52  12:50

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2014, 07:54:38 AM

Richter Haaser        8:49  2:40  17:04  11:11
Kempff (mono)        8:54  2:41  15:21  11:47
Bev. Webster          8:50  2:23  18:25  10:52
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 22, 2014, 07:56:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2014, 07:54:38 AM
Kempff (mono)        8:54  2:41  15:21  11:47


Kempff omits the repeat in the first movement.  I'll have to revisit Richter Haaser, because my memory of his playing is that he doesn't play fast, indicating that he omits it, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2014, 07:58:06 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 22, 2014, 07:56:59 AM

Kempff omits the repeat in the first movement.

Taub sounds very very good you know. I'm listening to it for the first time right now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 22, 2014, 08:03:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2014, 07:08:55 AM
But her Adagio is so nice for those times when you must hear a Hammerklavier but just don't have all day to sit through a normally paced performance  :D

Looking at Hammerklaviers I own, I come to the same conclusion as others: Gulda is the only one who comes close to meeting your requirements.

Korstick                   9:08  2:24  28:42  11:09
Gulda                      9:30  2:20  13:44  11:23
Solomon                10:08  2:30  22:20  12:37
HJ Lim                    10:24  2:43  12:50  11:23
Guy                       10:38  2:49  17:03  12:55
Rosen                    10:40  2:28  18:23  11:48
Pollini                     10:44  2:42  17:11  12:14
Arrau                     10:48  2:30  20:26  11:43
Annie Fischer          11:01  2:53  19:51  11:25
Gould                    11:03  2:48  20:42  13:33
Backhaus               11:45  2:38  16:32  11:01
Gilels                     12:24  2:53  19:51  13:38
Bareboim (EMI)       13:13  3:04  21:52  12:50

Sarge

I'll add a plug for Schiff. Obviously his first movement isn't as fast as Gulda's or some others', but his phrasing and rhythmic "snappiness" make it feel faster than it is. Stylistically he's much closer to Gulda than to Gilels here. And in the slow movement I prefer Schiff to Gulda, who does rush through it a bit.

Schiff                  11:07  2:42  15:29  12:51
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PaulSC on February 22, 2014, 10:05:41 AM
Goodyear    9:17   2:42   14:56   10:35
Worth a listen...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 0spinboson on February 22, 2014, 10:08:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2014, 09:39:34 PM
Try Hans Richter-Haaser
A very odd, and rather off-topic question, but would you mind checking the compression level for the files you have? I have flacs of the 2010 EMI France release, but they compress terribly considering it's piano solo music: average bitrate is 600, while the norm for the entire subset of beethoven piano sonata music in my collection (2 weeks worth of music) is 445kbps, and performances from that period (~4.5 days) average 500kbps. I'm a bit worried the files I have are transcodes from an mp3 source..
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2014, 10:41:59 AM

At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg13xvuCEAA9Y2e.jpg:large)

But listening to another new arrival, Paavali Jumppanen's Hammerklavier instead, right now... Very good op.2/3 on the preceding disc!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on February 22, 2014, 11:42:30 AM
Quote from: 0spinboson on February 22, 2014, 10:08:33 AM
A very odd, and rather off-topic question, but would you mind checking the compression level for the files you have? I have flacs of the 2010 EMI France release, but they compress terribly considering it's piano solo music: average bitrate is 600, while the norm for the entire subset of beethoven piano sonata music in my collection (2 weeks worth of music) is 445kbps, and performances from that period (~4.5 days) average 500kbps. I'm a bit worried the files I have are transcodes from an mp3 source..

I wouldn't think an mp3 transcode would increase the flac ratio (though I haven't done any experimentation). What's the noise level like, compared to the others?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2014, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: 0spinboson on February 22, 2014, 10:08:33 AM
A very odd, and rather off-topic question, but would you mind checking the compression level for the files you have? I have flacs of the 2010 EMI France release, but they compress terribly considering it's piano solo music: average bitrate is 600, while the norm for the entire subset of beethoven piano sonata music in my collection (2 weeks worth of music) is 445kbps, and performances from that period (~4.5 days) average 500kbps. I'm a bit worried the files I have are transcodes from an mp3 source..

Compression rate 57%
Sample rate 44.1 KHz
Sample size 16 bit
Bitrate 1,411 kbps

That's for the first movement


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: 0spinboson on February 22, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2014, 12:04:00 PM
Compression rate 57%
Sample rate 44.1 KHz
Sample size 16 bit
Bitrate 1,411 kbps

That's for the first movement
Hm, same as here then. Wonder why it's so hard to compress (the whole set is like this).
Quote
I wouldn't think an mp3 transcode would increase the flac ratio (though I haven't done any experimentation). What's the noise level like, compared to the others?
No noise present. I'm not sure why I thought that; I tested it a bit and the resulting files indeed only become smaller.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: trung224 on February 22, 2014, 02:08:12 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2014, 07:08:55 AM
But her Adagio is so nice for those times when you must hear a Hammerklavier but just don't have all day to sit through a normally paced performance  :D

Looking at Hammerklaviers I own, I come to the same conclusion as others: Gulda is the only one who comes close to meeting your requirements.

Korstick                   9:08  2:24  28:42  11:09
Gulda                      9:30  2:20  13:44  11:23
Solomon                10:08  2:30  22:20  12:37
HJ Lim                    10:24  2:43  12:50  11:23
Guy                       10:38  2:49  17:03  12:55
Rosen                    10:40  2:28  18:23  11:48
Pollini                     10:44  2:42  17:11  12:14
Arrau                     10:48  2:30  20:26  11:43
Annie Fischer          11:01  2:53  19:51  11:25
Gould                    11:03  2:48  20:42  13:33
Backhaus               11:45  2:38  16:32  11:01
Gilels                     12:24  2:53  19:51  13:38
Barenboim (EMI)     13:13  3:04  21:52  12:50

Sarge

I think Yudina too 10:32 2:39 13:19 11:57. Her reading is not only powerful, but also original.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on February 22, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 22, 2014, 10:41:59 AM
At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.

Congratulations!

I have vowed -- er, contemplated -- to limit my Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles to 2 (Gulda/Amadeo and Kempff/DG mono), and I think if I do get another, then it should a less traditional choice... and yet, your advocacy of Backhaus continues to intrigue me. Let us know what you think of the mono.

I'm also curious about lighter-weight ways to check out his Beethoven. amazon shows three live releases:
14,29 1956/Hänssler
12,14,17,26 1968/Orfeo
15,18,21,30 1969/Audite (with a presumably anachronistic cover photo)

Is anybody familiar with any of these?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 22, 2014, 02:53:29 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 22, 2014, 10:41:59 AM
At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg13xvuCEAA9Y2e.jpg:large)

But listening to another new arrival, Paavali Jumppanen's Hammerklavier instead, right now... Very good op.2/3 on the preceding disc!

Where did you locate that, Jens?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 22, 2014, 03:18:09 PM
Quote from: Pat B on February 22, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
I have vowed -- er, contemplated -- to limit my Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles to 2 (Gulda/Amadeo and Kempff/DG mono)

Probably my two favorite sets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 22, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 21, 2014, 10:45:50 PM
Gulda's probably my favorite in Op. 106. He plays with great clarity and momentum in the outer movements.

Having listened to Gulda's Hammerklavier I quite like it. Very stripped down—no tricks and very little "interpretation", just really solid playing of the notes Beethoven wrote, without trying to mitigate the harshness (this is a composer who made his pianos rattle in loud bits). There's very little pedal, which I also like. I prefer my adagios to have a better balance of sostenuto and appassionato (this one errs on the latter side, as the timing may suggest), but the scherzo, on the other hand, is perfect. I'll re-listen to the outer movements but when listening to them I didn't get the impression of them being significantly under tempo. (He's only slightly faster than Badura-Skoda on Astrée, which I have for comparison, but PBS sounds a lot slower.)

Possibly a new favourite, in Op. 106 and 101 at least. I sampled some of the earlier ones in the cycle (from the Appassionata onwards) and was not as impressed, but I might look into acquiring the last three for comparison—imagine his approach will be very different, probably more "avant-garde"*, than Kempff's (the other MI pianist I have for those).

I am curious about Goodyear, but the NML 64kbps stream has dreadful sound quality. I don't know whether having the CD would improve that very much since it sounds like simply bad engineering. Of the "slower" ones I will look into Schiff (whose first WTC is my "reference") as well as Rosen, because of his very thoughtful and informed writings on the sonata (and because I like his Diabellis).

* From having heard 3/16 of the Gulda cycle once, I can state with very little confidence that it is probably like what an Arditti Quartet or Quatuor Diotima cycle of the Beethoven quartets would sound like.

Notes apply to the 1967 set. I don't know the other two. I'm not a weirdo like you lot. ;P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 22, 2014, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: amw on February 22, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
I am curious about Goodyear, but the NML 64kbps stream has dreadful sound quality. I don't know whether having the CD would improve that very much since it sounds like simply bad engineering.
Can confirm: the Goodyear set is one of the most poorly-engineered Beethoven cycles of the last 10-15 years. It's a pity since he's such an engaging performer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 22, 2014, 07:43:19 PM
Quote from: amw on February 22, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
Having listened to Gulda's Hammerklavier I quite like it. Very stripped down—no tricks and very little "interpretation", just really solid playing of the notes Beethoven wrote, without trying to mitigate the harshness (this is a composer who made his pianos rattle in loud bits). There's very little pedal, which I also like. I prefer my adagios to have a better balance of sostenuto and appassionato (this one errs on the latter side, as the timing may suggest), but the scherzo, on the other hand, is perfect. I'll re-listen to the outer movements but when listening to them I didn't get the impression of them being significantly under tempo. (He's only slightly faster than Badura-Skoda on Astrée, which I have for comparison, but PBS sounds a lot slower.)

Possibly a new favourite, in Op. 106 and 101 at least. I sampled some of the earlier ones in the cycle (from the Appassionata onwards) and was not as impressed, but I might look into acquiring the last three for comparison—imagine his approach will be very different, probably more "avant-garde"*, than Kempff's (the other MI pianist I have for those).

I am curious about Goodyear, but the NML 64kbps stream has dreadful sound quality. I don't know whether having the CD would improve that very much since it sounds like simply bad engineering. Of the "slower" ones I will look into Schiff (whose first WTC is my "reference") as well as Rosen, because of his very thoughtful and informed writings on the sonata (and because I like his Diabellis).

* From having heard 3/16 of the Gulda cycle once, I can state with very little confidence that it is probably like what an Arditti Quartet or Quatuor Diotima cycle of the Beethoven quartets would sound like.

Notes apply to the 1967 set. I don't know the other two. I'm not a weirdo like you lot. ;P

I likewise only know the '67 Gulda, and I agree with you entirely about his Op. 106 scherzo and his Op. 101—the rhythmic precision he brings to the second movement of the A-major sonata was a revelation when I first heard it.

Gulda's Op. 57 isn't among my favorites, either, but I definitely recommend his Op. 111, which is a tour de force.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on February 22, 2014, 07:49:12 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 22, 2014, 06:54:53 PM
Can confirm: the Goodyear set is one of the most poorly-engineered Beethoven cycles of the last 10-15 years. It's a pity since he's such an engaging performer.
And Canadian.

Lortie, Hamelin, Hewitt, Beausejour,  Goodyear. Quite a presence these days.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 22, 2014, 08:00:38 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 22, 2014, 06:54:53 PM
Can confirm: the Goodyear set is one of the most poorly-engineered Beethoven cycles of the last 10-15 years. It's a pity since he's such an engaging performer.
Yes, that is a shame. I'll have to look for live bootlegs on youtube or something.

Quote from: aquariuswb on February 22, 2014, 07:43:19 PM
I likewise only know the '67 Gulda, and I agree with you entirely about his Op. 106 scherzo and his Op. 101—the rhythmic precision he brings to the second movement of the A-major sonata was a revelation when I first heard it.

Gulda's Op. 57 isn't among my favorites, either, but I definitely recommend his Op. 111, which is a tour de force.
I wouldn't say either Gulda's 101 or 106 was revelatory, but then I'm probably not going to be having revelations anytime soon about music I know so well. Will check out 111. That one can be tricky to pull off.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2014, 02:34:57 AM
Quote from: Pat B on February 22, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 22, 2014, 10:41:59 AM
At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg13xvuCEAA9Y2e.jpg:large)

But listening to another new arrival, Paavali Jumppanen's Hammerklavier instead, right now... Very good op.2/3 on the preceding disc!
Congratulations!

I have vowed -- er, contemplated -- to limit my Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles to 2 (Gulda/Amadeo and Kempff/DG mono), and I think if I do get another, then it should a less traditional choice... and yet, your advocacy of Backhaus continues to intrigue me. Let us know what you think of the mono.


So far so good, but my love for Backhaus stems from the stereo cycle. All the same, I've talked with several pianists and just a few days ago with Buchbinder who knew and worked a little with both Kempff and Backhaus and he, as others who knew them, suggested that he liked early Backhaus better than late Backhaus. So when I found the cycle on Amazon Japan (link already included in the updated Beethoven Sonata Survey: Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles | Part 1, 1935 - 1969 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)), I didn't any longer resist. I wouldn't have trusted the "I have it, it's super rare, so therefore it's amazing" raves alone. :-)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2014, 03:34:56 AM
Re Backhaus, it would be quite amusing to explore this a bit more since there seem to be widely different views around here.

JLAURSON - so far so good
PREMONT - stereo is better
TODD - mono is better
MANDRYKA - mono is often better, and has nice warm truthful sound.
GEORGE - they're pretty well as good/bad as each other except for sound. Stereo sounds better

It's the slow movements in the stereo which bug me, because they're sometimes just not at all poetic. Try the slow movement of op 2/1.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 23, 2014, 07:43:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 23, 2014, 02:34:57 AM
So far so good, but my love for Backhaus stems from the stereo cycle. All the same, I've talked with several pianists and just a few days ago with Buchbinder who knew and worked a little with both Kempff and Backhaus and he, as others who knew them, suggested that he liked early Backhaus better than late Backhaus.

Sure, but early Backhaus is 1908-1928 or so. The mono set is 1950-1954. The stereo from 1958-1969.

If we divide his career into 3 20 year periods, it looks like this. (note that both sets fall in the late period, though the mono is earlier and IMO a bit better.)

Early - 1908-1928
Mid -   1928-1948
Late -  1949-1969
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 23, 2014, 07:55:17 AM
The price on the mono set isn't bad, so for those interested, I'd say it might be worth consideration.  I notice it is packaged using the London label rather than Decca, which makes me wonder if it's a reissue of an older issue and uses a different mastering than the UMG Italy set I bought nearly a decade ago now (!).

(I wonder if the below big box ever gets reissued, too.  That could be fun.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31RZCEXVHKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Trevor on February 23, 2014, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: amw on February 22, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
I sampled some of the earlier ones in the cycle (from the Appassionata onwards) and was not as impressed, but I might look into acquiring the last three for comparison—imagine his approach will be very different, probably more "avant-garde"*, than Kempff's (the other MI pianist I have for those).
First post here, yay. Anyway, I'd say the appassionata is the worst place to start with Gulda: i think he was willfully weird there — not a bad thing to do in such an oft-recorded sonata, of course. Also, his op 78 and  les Adieux are too quick. So, the middle stretch isn't Gulda at his best, but most of the rest of the cycle is really phenomenal. You might think from the sample that you've heard that Gulda isn't keen on showing any sensitivity, but that would be a wrong assumption. So, anyway start his cycle from the beginning; it's mostly fantastic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2014, 01:07:00 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 23, 2014, 07:55:17 AM
The price on the mono set isn't bad, so for those interested, I'd say it might be worth consideration.  I notice it is packaged using the London label rather than Decca, which makes me wonder if it's a reissue of an older issue and uses a different mastering than the UMG Italy set I bought nearly a decade ago now (!).

I'll look into any mastering information, if I can find any. The booklet is all Japanese, FYI.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 24, 2014, 05:56:14 PM
Quick reminder that there are a little over 24 hours remaining on the Waldstein blind listening game (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22915.0.html).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 27, 2014, 03:44:29 AM
Hammerklavier belated contribution...

Kovacevich: is 10:22 in the first movement too slow for you?

I mention Kovacevich because before that I had one of Brendel's performances, and Kovacevich transformed this sonata for me, particularly the finale which held together far better and made more sense.

The Adagio is a respectable 16:23.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 27, 2014, 05:39:27 AM
Quote from: orfeo on February 27, 2014, 03:44:29 AMKovacevich: is 10:22 in the first movement too slow for you?



I think the goal is to get to an opening movement that is close to the metronome mark in the score, which very few pianists do, or can do (?), which is closer to nine minutes.  I don't worry about it too much when I listen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on February 27, 2014, 05:18:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 27, 2014, 05:39:27 AM


I think the goal is to get to an opening movement that is close to the metronome mark in the score, which very few pianists do, or can do (?), which is closer to nine minutes.  I don't worry about it too much when I listen.

  In fact, the slower the better in my book.  Always liked my LvB slow....even the symphonies and sq's.  Like cold maple syrup on a frigid day.  Who is generally considered slow in the sonata groupings?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 27, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
Quote from: orfeo on February 27, 2014, 03:44:29 AM
Hammerklavier belated contribution...

Kovacevich: is 10:22 in the first movement too slow for you?

Depends entirely on phrasing and articulation—so long as it doesn't have the feel of an "Allegro maestoso". 8-9 minutes is an ideal time range if Beethoven's markings are followed exactly (something the composer himself didn't favour), but if a pianist doesn't have the technique to play it that quickly (as many don't) by all means slow it down to 10 or 11 minutes—so long as it does not feel slow, which is what I dislike in Hammerklaviers. The first movement should be harsh, intense and joyous, not grand; somewhat wild. The scherzo should sound slightly faster than is actually possible, like a hyper-compressed version of the first movement (Gulda does this very well imo). The fugue does not need interpretation to be understood, just the notes at something close to their actual speed. Throughout the sonata the sustain pedal should be used very sparingly apart from Beethoven's original pedal markings (this is true of most of Beethoven's music, actually).

I don't know where I get these very particular preferences from, though on reflection, I'm similarly picky about pretty much all other music I know well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 27, 2014, 05:48:05 PM
Quote from: Bogey on February 27, 2014, 05:18:36 PM
  In fact, the slower the better in my book.  Always liked my LvB slow....even the symphonies and sq's.  Like cold maple syrup on a frigid day.  Who is generally considered slow in the sonata groupings?

For the first movement of the Hammerklavier, Barenboim's recording from the '80s on DG is pretty slow (over 13 minutes).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 27, 2014, 05:48:51 PM
Quote from: Bogey on February 27, 2014, 05:18:36 PM
  In fact, the slower the better in my book.  Always liked my LvB slow....even the symphonies and sq's.  Like cold maple syrup on a frigid day.  Who is generally considered slow in the sonata groupings?


Barenboim, Gilels, Kempff, Leotta, Kuerti, and Nakamichi all use broad, or at least broad-ish tempi.  (I'm considering the entire cycle.)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2014, 09:08:53 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 27, 2014, 05:39:27 AM


I think the goal is to get to an opening movement that is close to the metronome mark in the score, which very few pianists do, or can do (?), which is closer to nine minutes.  I don't worry about it too much when I listen.

Even Kovacevich is too slow!  That is impressive, he always sounded a bit too fast to me.  Shows what I know! :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 27, 2014, 11:05:19 PM
Quote from: amw on February 27, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
Depends entirely on phrasing and articulation—so long as it doesn't have the feel of an "Allegro maestoso". 8-9 minutes is an ideal time range if Beethoven's markings are followed exactly (something the composer himself didn't favour), but if a pianist doesn't have the technique to play it that quickly (as many don't) by all means slow it down to 10 or 11 minutes—so long as it does not feel slow, which is what I dislike in Hammerklaviers. The first movement should be harsh, intense and joyous, not grand; somewhat wild. The scherzo should sound slightly faster than is actually possible, like a hyper-compressed version of the first movement (Gulda does this very well imo). The fugue does not need interpretation to be understood, just the notes at something close to their actual speed. Throughout the sonata the sustain pedal should be used very sparingly apart from Beethoven's original pedal markings (this is true of most of Beethoven's music, actually).

I don't know where I get these very particular preferences from, though on reflection, I'm similarly picky about pretty much all other music I know well.

Well, I suspect that you might quite like both the opening and closing movements, but you would probably have a problem with the scherzo, which is rather measured. It doesn't bother me that much because it's such a short movement, but for me it's definitely the least impressive part of Kovacevich's performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on February 28, 2014, 03:49:05 PM
This is a quite fascinating comparison of tempos in the first movement of 106.  It seems that Schnabel wins by a short head over Korstick, Geiseking and Leslie (who I think is excellent).  Barenboim and Gould get the wooden spoon.

http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/en/5_autograph_tempo_in_beethoven%92s_%93hammerklavier_sonata%94_1321.html

I know I'll be howled down, but I really don't like Gilels first movement at all.  Talking about ponderous. He's like a plane taxiing around the run-way but never tries to take off.   Rosen expresses what should happen in the first movement very well (from the above article).

Charles Rosen argues against the maestoso character of the first movement in his influential study on the Classical style from 1971, and makes a plea for the "harshness" of the piece as well as for its rhythmic vitality. It is solely on these grounds that he sees its "reputation for greatness" justifiable. Any difficulties in understanding on the part of the listener he doesn't see as being particularly problematic.

"(...) there is no excuse, textual or musical, for making it sound majestic, like Allegro maestoso, and such an effect is a betrayal of the music. It is often done, because it mitigates the harshness of the work, but this harshness is clearly essential to it. A majestic tempo also saps the rhythmic vitality on which the movement depends. As we have seen, the actual material of the work is neither rich nor particularly expressive; it only lives up to its reputation for greatness if its rhythmic power is concentrated. And it is meant to be difficult to listen to." ( 49)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 28, 2014, 04:07:00 PM
Quote from: Fred on February 28, 2014, 03:49:05 PM
This is a quite fascinating comparison of tempos in the first movement of 106.  It seems that Schnabel wins by a short head over Korstick, Geiseking and Leslie (who I think is excellent).  Barenboim and Gould get the wooden spoon.

http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/en/5_autograph_tempo_in_beethoven%92s_%93hammerklavier_sonata%94_1321.html

I know I'll be howled down, but I really don't like Gilels first movement at all.  Talking about ponderous. He's like a plane taxiing around the run-way but never tries to take off.   Rosen expresses what should happen in the first movement very well (from the above article).

Charles Rosen argues against the maestoso character of the first movement in his influential study on the Classical style from 1971, and makes a plea for the "harshness" of the piece as well as for its rhythmic vitality. It is solely on these grounds that he sees its "reputation for greatness" justifiable. Any difficulties in understanding on the part of the listener he doesn't see as being particularly problematic.

"(...) there is no excuse, textual or musical, for making it sound majestic, like Allegro maestoso, and such an effect is a betrayal of the music. It is often done, because it mitigates the harshness of the work, but this harshness is clearly essential to it. A majestic tempo also saps the rhythmic vitality on which the movement depends. As we have seen, the actual material of the work is neither rich nor particularly expressive; it only lives up to its reputation for greatness if its rhythmic power is concentrated. And it is meant to be difficult to listen to." ( 49)

Thanks for the link!

I likewise prefer a faster tempo for the first movement, but I can enjoy slower interpretations, too, and I'm quite fond of the Gilels.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 28, 2014, 06:05:26 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 28, 2014, 04:07:00 PMI likewise prefer a faster tempo for the first movement, but I can enjoy slower interpretations, too, and I'm quite fond of the Gilels.



I agree with every word.  As it pertains to Gilels, he was a bad ass, and in the few instances I've heard where he truly let loose (some of his Tchaikovsky in the EMI Gilels set), he was certainly unsurpassed and probably unmatched in his ivory-tickling ability.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
Quote from: Fred on February 28, 2014, 03:49:05 PM
This is a quite fascinating comparison of tempos in the first movement of 106.  It seems that Schnabel wins by a short head over Korstick, Geiseking and Leslie (who I think is excellent).  Barenboim and Gould get the wooden spoon.

http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/en/5_autograph_tempo_in_beethoven%92s_%93hammerklavier_sonata%94_1321.html

I know I'll be howled down, but I really don't like Gilels first movement at all.  Talking about ponderous. He's like a plane taxiing around the run-way but never tries to take off.   Rosen expresses what should happen in the first movement very well (from the above article).

Charles Rosen argues against the maestoso character of the first movement in his influential study on the Classical style from 1971, and makes a plea for the "harshness" of the piece as well as for its rhythmic vitality. It is solely on these grounds that he sees its "reputation for greatness" justifiable. Any difficulties in understanding on the part of the listener he doesn't see as being particularly problematic.

"(...) there is no excuse, textual or musical, for making it sound majestic, like Allegro maestoso, and such an effect is a betrayal of the music. It is often done, because it mitigates the harshness of the work, but this harshness is clearly essential to it. A majestic tempo also saps the rhythmic vitality on which the movement depends. As we have seen, the actual material of the work is neither rich nor particularly expressive; it only lives up to its reputation for greatness if its rhythmic power is concentrated. And it is meant to be difficult to listen to." ( 49)

I think that's a pretty powerful argument from Rosen. And yet, I've never heard a convincing op 106/i which is played fast. The fast performances always end up losing the dynamic nuances. And the fast performances end up breathless, not enough silences. The best op 106/i I know is Yudina's,  or Gilels live or Richter-Haaser. Even Rosen himself takes it at over 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on February 28, 2014, 11:22:20 PM
Rosen's first 106 clocks in at 10.41, but his second at 9.47.  It's a complete rethinking on his part (as if he decided to practice what he preaches).
Say what you like about Korstick, but he sounds very fast and very much in control.  He's some finger-athlete.  Ditto Goodyear.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2014, 11:55:14 PM
That's interesting, where is the second one? I've only heard the one at 10.47
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on February 28, 2014, 11:59:07 PM
Quote from: Fred on February 28, 2014, 11:22:20 PM
Rosen's first 106 clocks in at 10.41, but his second at 9.47.  It's a complete rethinking on his part (as if he decided to practice what he preaches).
Say what you like about Korstick, but he sounds very fast and very much in control.  He's some finger-athlete.  Ditto Goodyear.

I am still in the process of digesting Korstick and having much difficulty doing so. But I am very encouraged by parts that are so convincing and others that are not at the present but nevertheless I am curious that I may change my mind given time...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 01, 2014, 04:43:03 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 27, 2014, 05:48:51 PM

Barenboim, Gilels, Kempff, Leotta, Kuerti, and Nakamichi all use broad, or at least broad-ish tempi.  (I'm considering the entire cycle.)


Quote from: aquariuswb on February 27, 2014, 05:48:05 PM
For the first movement of the Hammerklavier, Barenboim's recording from the '80s on DG is pretty slow (over 13 minutes).

Thanks!  I am guessing that the Kempff stereo cycle I have is slower, overall, than the mono set?

Oh, and out of the ones you mentioned Todd, who differs greater in their approach to Kempff?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on March 01, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

This is the second Rosen Hammerklavier (although I saw a suggestion somewhere that he may have recorded three - though I've never got to the bottom of that).  Shows there was absolutely nothing wrong with his technique.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Charles-Rosen/dp/B000000FT4/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1393730632&sr=1-6&keywords=rosen+beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 02, 2014, 07:10:27 AM
Quote from: Bogey on March 01, 2014, 04:43:03 AMThanks!  I am guessing that the Kempff stereo cycle I have is slower, overall, than the mono set?


The two cycles are pretty close in terms of tempo.



Quote from: Bogey on March 01, 2014, 04:43:03 AMOh, and out of the ones you mentioned Todd, who differs greater in their approach to Kempff?


They're all distinctive, but for maximum contrast either Gilels or Kuerti.  Gilels is much better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 02, 2014, 07:11:35 AM
Thank you, again. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2014, 07:24:46 AM
Quote from: Fred on February 28, 2014, 11:22:20 PM
Rosen's first 106 clocks in at 10.41, but his second at 9.47.  It's a complete rethinking on his part (as if he decided to practice what he preaches).
Say what you like about Korstick, but he sounds very fast and very much in control.  He's some finger-athlete.  Ditto Goodyear.

Well I got hold of the last Rosen and I thought it was fun to hear the first movement played in such an abrupt and disjointed way. Restless, unsettled. Rosen can say what he likes, both Yudina and Richter-Haaser (and even Kempff)  make the allegro sound both majestic and expressive and they don't sap it of  energy, though their energy is more heroic than Rosen's in that 1997 recording.  I also listened to Korstick -- whether he's got chops or not, the interpretation sounded rushed  to me, I didn't hear anything interesting or enjoyable. I'm listening to Goodyear now. I prefer what I hear from Taub to either Goodyear or Korstick, even though I can do without all three of them.  I agree that what Rosen did is interesting (as is Taub.)

Here's a knocking review of the Rosen Hammerklavier by Richard Taruskin

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/16/arts/classical-briefs-111236.html

At the other extreme of the spectrum, I believe medici TV are about to release a video of Sokolov playing it in 2013.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on March 02, 2014, 09:36:30 AM
Quote from: Fred on March 01, 2014, 06:28:39 PM
This is the second Rosen Hammerklavier (although I saw a suggestion somewhere that he may have recorded three - though I've never got to the bottom of that).  Shows there was absolutely nothing wrong with his technique.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Charles-Rosen/dp/B000000FT4/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1393730632&sr=1-6&keywords=rosen+beethoven

According to this Library of Congress discography (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.200152723/default.html), that 1997 MusicMasters CD is actually a reissue of a 1965 Epic disc. That would make it earlier than his Late Sonatas set, reissued on Sony Essential Classics, which was recorded 1968-1970.

There are copies of the Epic disc on ebay, and a UK issue is marked 1965, so we know for sure that is his first recording, and the Essential Classics is his second. I cannot confirm, though, that the MusicMasters is the same as the 1965.

Disclosure: I have only heard the one on Essential Classics.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2014, 10:23:10 AM
Quote from: Pat B on March 02, 2014, 09:36:30 AM
According to this Library of Congress discography (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.200152723/default.html), that 1997 MusicMasters CD is actually a reissue of a 1965 Epic disc. That would make it earlier than his Late Sonatas set, reissued on Sony Essential Classics, which was recorded 1968-1970.

There are copies of the Epic disc on ebay, and a UK issue is marked 1965, so we know for sure that is his first recording, and the Essential Classics is his second. I cannot confirm, though, that the MusicMasters is the same as the 1965.

Disclosure: I have only heard the one on Essential Classics.

The 1996 recording was included in the second edition of The Classical Style, that's what I've been listening to. Maybe the Music Masters CD has the Epic Recording.

I just played the allegro again, it is well worth hearing. On symphonyshare.

Strange how Rosen turns out to be a pianist who I like a lot, in Debussy Etudes, Bartok Etudes, Davidsbundlertanzer , the Diabellies, and now here in this first movement of op 106. I have some Haydn by him somewhere which I must listen to some time. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on March 04, 2014, 12:21:44 PM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 13, 2014, 02:20:10 AM
And the sound on the Brilliant (Richter) set is not that bad, compared to other concerts of the same period.

I have re-listened to some of it, and the sound is better than I remembered. Op. 111, from 1975, is a great performance in quite good sound. I didn't re-listen to op. 2#3 and op. 7, but they are from the same day. The other 6 sonatas are from 1965 and 1972; their sound is not up to the standards of contemporaneous studio recordings, but is decent.

I have the current iteration, a 3-CD set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008L62XEG/?tag=goodmusicguideco) that omits the Liszt and Schubert from the older 5-CD set, but adds a 1952 recording of Beethoven's 3rd Piano Concerto. At current prices ($13 new and shipped in the USA) it's very recommendable.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 04, 2014, 10:09:24 PM
Quote from: George on February 23, 2014, 07:43:56 AM
Sure, but early Backhaus is 1908-1928 or so. The mono set is 1950-1954. The stereo from 1958-1969.

If we divide his career into 3 20 year periods, it looks like this. (note that both sets fall in the late period, though the mono is earlier and IMO a bit better.)

Early - 1908-1928
Mid -   1928-1948
Late -  1949-1969

Very true, of course. Thought about that, too... but was lazy and went for "early" when "earlier" is more correct. I have some early-mid recordings (Chopin Etudes, methinks)... and that's different yet again. Buchbinder mentioned that Backhaus was deeply unhappy with the fact that he would, later in his career only be asked to do the Germanic stuff, Brahms Concertos and Beethoven Sonatas up and down... when he should have liked to offer a much more diverse program. Buchbinder mentioned particularly his Debussy.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on March 04, 2014, 10:30:12 PM
Does anyone know whether this Italian issue contains the mono or stereo recordings? :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/718fivKt3mL._SL1395_.jpg)

It says "℗ 1953-1969" on the back, which is confusing..

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 05, 2014, 12:54:58 AM
Quote from: Que on March 04, 2014, 10:30:12 PM
Does anyone know whether this Italian issue contains the mono or stereo recordings? :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/718fivKt3mL._SL1395_.jpg)

It says "℗ 1953-1969" on the back, which is confusing..

Q

Stereo. With the standard mono inclusions of that set that he didn't get to finish in time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 05, 2014, 06:34:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 05, 2014, 12:54:58 AM
Stereo. With the standard mono inclusions of that set that he didn't get to finish in time.

Anyone else noteworthy do a hybrid?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on March 05, 2014, 07:05:42 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 05, 2014, 06:34:39 PM
Anyone else noteworthy do a hybrid?
The Katchen Brahms set has some mono to fill in gaps.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on March 05, 2014, 10:38:31 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 05, 2014, 12:54:58 AM
Stereo. With the standard mono inclusions of that set that he didn't get to finish in time.

Thanks! :)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 06, 2014, 02:08:02 AM
Quote from: Bogey on March 05, 2014, 06:34:39 PM
Anyone else noteworthy do a hybrid?

Arrau III fills the gaps with earlier versions, I think... and throws in a very early Diabelli Variations. See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on March 06, 2014, 06:36:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 06, 2014, 02:08:02 AM
Arrau III fills the gaps with earlier versions, I think... and throws in a very early Diabelli Variations. See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Yes, except, as I established here rather dogmatically several months back, the cycle from the '80s is really Arrau II.  ;D

Oh, there's a typo on your site: "27/1" should be "27/2" (http://arrauhouse.org/content/disc_beethoven_solo2.htm)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 06, 2014, 06:38:28 AM
Quote from: Bogey on March 05, 2014, 06:34:39 PMAnyone else noteworthy do a hybrid?


If by hybrid you mean mono and stereo, then:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FSHosyA%2BL._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 06, 2014, 06:41:57 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on March 06, 2014, 06:36:22 AM
Yes, except, as I established here rather dogmatically several months back, the cycle from the '80s is really Arrau II.  ;D

Oh, there's a typo on your site: "27/1" should be "27/2" (http://arrauhouse.org/content/disc_beethoven_solo2.htm)

I missed that part. But then at least I have it right by still referring to it as "Arrau II" on the Sonata Survey site.

Thanks for catching the 27/1/2 mistake! I rely on eagle eyes like that!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on March 06, 2014, 07:14:33 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on March 06, 2014, 06:36:22 AM
Yes, except, as I established here rather dogmatically several months back, the cycle from the '80s is really Arrau II.  ;D

Using ordinal numbers in this context is a peeve of mine. Why not say "Arrau 1980s" or "Arrau digital?"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on March 06, 2014, 07:41:17 AM
Quote from: Pat B on March 06, 2014, 07:14:33 AM
Using ordinal numbers in this context is a peeve of mine. Why not say "Arrau 1980s" or "Arrau digital?"
Is this pet peeve I or pet peeve II?

>:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on March 06, 2014, 10:11:40 AM
Quote from: Pat B on March 06, 2014, 07:14:33 AM
Using ordinal numbers in this context is a peeve of mine. Why not say "Arrau 1980s" or "Arrau digital?"

Stop making sense.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on March 08, 2014, 05:42:40 PM
MANDRYKA - Thank you for taking me back to Taub. I have previously complained about the sound because I started with 111 (as usual) and the sound gave me ear-ache.  However, I went and listened to the hammerklavier and found the sound very acceptable.  Go figure.  Anyway, superb rendition. Will definitely listen to more Taub (and wonder why he doesn't have a bigger career - if he wanted one, of course).
P.S.  I got my copy of his complete set via the Schirmer Performance Edition (vols 1 and 2) at Amazon and it cost almost nothing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 09, 2014, 08:39:21 AM
.
[asin]B00HPZZOVI[/asin]



Op 2 is bad, very bad.  And it is attributable to Jumppanen's ornamentation in all but the slow movements.  Some ornamentation is cringe-inducing, some ugly, and almost all of it is terrible.  That written, when he plays more directly, he is quite good, recalling his superb playing in the Violin Sonata set with Corey Cerovsek.  His playing in Opp 101 and 106 is also much, much better.  His penchant for the occasional long pause, which also shows up in Op 2, is a mannerism I could live without, but his clarity in the fugues more than offsets quibbles in this regard.  A mixed bag of a set.  I just hope the remaining early sonatas aren't treated similarly to Op 2.  Superb sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on March 09, 2014, 08:56:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 09, 2014, 08:39:21 AM
.
[asin]B00HPZZOVI[/asin]



Op 2 is bad, very bad.  And it is attributable to Jumppanen's ornamentation in all but the slow movements.  Some ornamentation is cringe-inducing, some ugly, and almost all of it is terrible.  That written, when he plays more directly, he is quite good, recalling his superb playing in the Violin Sonata set with Corey Cerovsek.  His playing in Opp 101 and 106 is also much, much better.  His penchant for the occasional long pause, which also shows up in Op 2, is a mannerism I could live without, but his clarity in the fugues more than offsets quibbles in this regard.  A mixed bag of a set.  I just hope the remaining early sonatas aren't treated similarly to Op 2.  Superb sound.

I know what you mean about the ornamentation, but I found it only mildly annoying at times.  Still, I wonder why Jumppanen thought his "moves" to be advantageous.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 10, 2014, 07:16:02 AM
.
[asin]B0030QID7S[/asin]  [asin]B0038LQSBI[/asin]



So, I was looking around for any new cycles, and one Per Tengstrand appears to be recording the cycle.  Two volumes can be found at Amazon Germany, though the lapses in release dates (2014 for volume 1, 2010 for volume 2 (?)) make me think this could be one of those cycles that gets started but not finished.  Anyone know anything about the pianist?

I also found the first volume by Stephan Möller, and he's starting big. 

[asin]B001UJSWI2[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on March 10, 2014, 04:19:45 PM
Re Moller - bits I've sampled sound very impressive.  He's definitely from the bull-in-a-china-shop school of hammerklavier playing
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on March 13, 2014, 01:42:07 AM
I bought the moller disk and I must say that in my very very humble opinion, he is AMAZING.  Magnificent technique.  But his playing is also full of heart and fire.  But his disk raises so many questions.  He seems to be 57, but he's only ever recorded about three disks.  How could someone be this good and have recorded so little?  The longer I live, the weirder life gets.
P.S. He seems to also be a specialist in the liszt wagner transcriptions.  Goodness, I would love to hear him in the tannhauser overture.  I'm sure he's quite something.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 13, 2014, 12:22:55 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 10, 2014, 07:16:02 AM
I also found the first volume by Stephan Möller, and he's starting big. 

[asin]B001UJSWI2[/asin]

His Hammerklavier first movement is 9:24...in amw's territory.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on March 13, 2014, 05:40:38 PM
The Möller looks to be a recent release, but the back cover indicates the recordings were made in 1991 and 1994.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 13, 2014, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: Pat B on March 13, 2014, 05:40:38 PMThe Möller looks to be a recent release, but the back cover indicates the recordings were made in 1991 and 1994.


Makes me wonder if this is like the current Sequeira Costa reissue program: new packaging for old-ish recordings on a micro-label.  In any event, I may very well have to place a higher priority on Mr Moller.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on March 13, 2014, 06:57:43 PM
Wow, those Jumppannen performances were idiosyncratic, to say the least. Makes Russell Sherman sound like a traditionist. I must say I did fine them interesting. Wonder what Beethoven would have though of them?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 14, 2014, 04:55:20 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on March 13, 2014, 06:57:43 PM
Wow, those Jumppannen performances were idiosyncratic, to say the least. Makes Russell Sherman sound like a traditionist. I must say I did fine them interesting. Wonder what Beethoven would have though of them?

I particularly love op.2/3, on that recording...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2014, 10:30:42 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PVP1kE9RL._SX300_.jpg)


I've listened to Dina Ugorskaja's first LvB disc a couple times, and it is most enjoyable.  Her playing isn't the fastest, the slowest, the weirdest, the deepest, or anything like that, but it is just personal enough, with some extremely good quiet playing and clear inner voices, and the second movement of 111 is slow, quite beautiful, and light and transcendent at the same time.  I look forward to her soon to be released second LvB disc.  Her Handel is also superb, so I opted to order Schumann and pick up all four readily available discs she has out.  I want to hear more from her.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on March 22, 2014, 03:13:56 AM
I have rectors performance from the Royal Festival Hall from 1975. I remember listening to it on the radio and was astonished because as an encore he repeated the the last movement fugue. Unfortunately the Encore is not on the disk. But the performance is terrifying. Richter takes no prisoners - they've all run away!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 12:04:19 PM
I would not be surprised if George already posted this somewhere, but for Schnabel fans, here is another set:

http://www.pristineclassical.com/index2.html

Just scroll down a bit.

And plenty more

http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/indexes/composerB.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on March 23, 2014, 12:20:40 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 12:04:19 PM
I would not be surprised if George already posted this somewhere, but for Schnabel fans, here is another set:

http://www.pristineclassical.com/index2.html

Just scroll down a bit.

And plenty more

http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/indexes/composerB.html

George no likey. I do, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 24, 2014, 07:57:55 AM
.
[asin]B00FVJFDYS[/asin]



Ogdon's 106 was a recording I'd been wanting to hear for a good number of years, and now I can say I heard it.  Unfortunately, it did not live up to my expectations.  His tempo choices are mostly conventional, which is fine, and he plays the opening movement in big, bold fashion, which is good, and he brings out some details here and there, especially in the second movement quite unlike anyone else, but the slow movement didn't work for me, and the fugue is odd in that at times it sounds like Ogdon is close to his technical limits, only to then let loose and rip through some passages.  He clearly plays for effect.  It ends up being a middle of the road quality performance for me.  The highlight of the disc ends up being the Nielsen pieces, which Ogdon plays exceptionally well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 24, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 12:04:19 PM
I would not be surprised if George already posted this somewhere, but for Schnabel fans, here is another set:

http://www.pristineclassical.com/index2.html

Just scroll down a bit.

And plenty more

http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/indexes/composerB.html

I am not a fan of Pristine's work. What I have heard (about a dozen transfers) always sounds filtered and unnatural.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 24, 2014, 12:23:49 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on March 23, 2014, 12:20:40 PM
George no likey.

(http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/396810/resized_the-fonz-meme-generator-heyyyyyy-exactamundo-832715.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 24, 2014, 12:29:15 PM
Quote from: George on March 24, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
I am not a fan of Pristine's work. What I have heard (about a dozen transfers) always sounds filtered and unnatural.

Good to know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: rondos on March 24, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
So far I have listened to the first 17 sonatas painstakingly.  It seems to me that Op.31, No.1 is the weakest among them, and I am yet to find a convincing recording of this work.  Any suggestions?

BTW, this afternoon I listened to Richter's live recording of Op.31, No.2 in the Brilliant Classics box.  It is the first time I hear a wonderful recording ruined by constant coughing from the audience.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 24, 2014, 07:23:19 PM
Quote from: rondos on March 24, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
So far I have listened to the first 17 sonatas painstakingly.  It seems to me that Op.31, No.1 is the weakest among them, and I am yet to find a convincing recording of this work.  Any suggestions?

Perhaps you must remember that the slow movement of Op. 31 No. 1 is a parody - in fact, the whole sonata is very slyly witty, until the ending, which to me is slapstick. It's one of my favorites, and the recording which got me to loving it was Gilels (DG), though there is no shortage of great ones.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2014, 06:16:44 AM
Quote from: George on March 24, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
I am not a fan of Pristine's work. What I have heard (about a dozen transfers) always sounds filtered and unnatural.

True that. They have their hack-shill at Fanfare, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 25, 2014, 06:56:23 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 25, 2014, 06:16:44 AM
True that. They have their hack-shill at Fanfare, but that's about it.

Sorry for the off topic post:


There is an "acoustic" Stokowski that looks tempting.  Is this the only recording out there of these works?

http://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc192.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 25, 2014, 09:35:43 AM
Quote from: rondos on March 24, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
So far I have listened to the first 17 sonatas painstakingly.  It seems to me that Op.31, No.1 is the weakest among them, and I am yet to find a convincing recording of this work.  Any suggestions?

I think that before you dismiss this sonata you should try a recording on a suitable fortepiano, if you haven't already done so. Paul Badura Skoda for example. On modern piano, I think Gould is interesting because he plays up the comedy, and he's light and fast.

Quote from: Brian on March 24, 2014, 07:23:19 PM
Perhaps you must remember that the slow movement of Op. 31 No. 1 is a parody

A parody of what?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on March 25, 2014, 10:17:30 AM
On Op. 31/1/ii as parody of Italian opera, see pp. 8ff. of this article: http://bf.press.illinois.edu/view.php?vol=13&iss=1&f=hatten.pdf
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: rondos on March 25, 2014, 12:09:47 PM
Thanks guys for all the comments and suggestions on Op.31 No.1.  I do realize the comedic nature of this work and the second movement as a parody of an Italian opera.  It's just that the first two recordings that I listened to do not seem to show the structure of the work very clearly, especially in the third movement.  I will try a few more recordings, including Gilels. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on March 25, 2014, 02:01:49 PM
Quote from: rondos on March 25, 2014, 12:09:47 PM
Thanks guys for all the comments and suggestions on Op.31 No.1.  I do realize the comedic nature of this work and the second movement as a parody of an Italian opera.  It's just that the first two recordings that I listened to do not seem to show the structure of the work very clearly, especially in the third movement.  I will try a few more recordings, including Gilels.

Just remember: you're obligated to like it.  ;)

I distinctly recall Op. 31/1 and Op. 2/2 taking me several listens to really enjoy. For Op. 31/1, I think Brendel and Schiff do a fine job bringing out the humor. Also, Gulda's crisp playing in the outer movements is worth hearing if you dig his style. And actually Gould is rather fun in this sonata (bizarre, but fun).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on March 25, 2014, 02:09:59 PM
I still don't like Op. 2/1, 2/3 or 49 much. I'm sort of on the fence about the Waldstein.

As for 31/1 I always find the finale disappointingly conventional (apart from the coda, which is brilliant).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 26, 2014, 08:30:00 AM
31/1 does seem not his best work to me. God, he certainly milks the tunes does Beethoven -- it must be one of the most repetitious sonatas ever. And that middle movement, for all it's beguiling at first, outstays it's welcome. The whole sonata's too long. It needs someone to give it a good hard pruning.

Beethoven is often repetitious, think of the first movement of the Waldstein. Of course it may partly be that the pianists who play Beethoven are less imaginative about hiw to deal with repetition than baroque keyboard players.

The sonata I've had the biggest problem with is 10/2 -- that's why I was very glad to find Grinberg's recently.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 26, 2014, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 24, 2014, 07:57:55 AM
.
[asin]B00FVJFDYS[/asin]



Ogdon's 106 was a recording I'd been wanting to hear for a good number of years, and now I can say I heard it.  Unfortunately, it did not live up to my expectations.  His tempo choices are mostly conventional, which is fine, and he plays the opening movement in big, bold fashion, which is good, and he brings out some details here and there, especially in the second movement quite unlike anyone else, but the slow movement didn't work for me, and the fugue is odd in that at times it sounds like Ogdon is close to his technical limits, only to then let loose and rip through some passages.  He clearly plays for effect.  It ends up being a middle of the road quality performance for me.  The highlight of the disc ends up being the Nielsen pieces, which Ogdon plays exceptionally well.

I was also disappointed in a way. It doesn't come alive in the way I'd been hoping.  I say "in a way" because I actually knew what it was like because I'd heard it on youtube, but I was hoping the improved sound would be revealing of something. The fugue has stuck in my mind as something to go back to sometime. It made me think of a discussion I was in here with someone here about op 133 and they said they wanted it to be played classically, with restraint and lyricism -- and then when asked for an example they came up with a piano transcription. But you may be right when you say he rips through some passages, you know the music better than me I expect.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 01, 2014, 07:23:10 PM
My jumbo-size review of new Beethoven albums by Jean-Efflam Bavouzet, Jonathan Biss, James Brawn, Inna Faliks, Steven Masi, and Maria Perrotta is now online (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Mar14/Beethoven_sonata_survey.htm). (The editors inserted a couple typos. Grr, argh. What are editors for?) Quick summary: Perrotta and Brawn recommended to all; Bavouzet and Biss recommended to those with certain tastes; Faliks an artist to watch; Masi hamstrung by bad sound.

Some of you are quoted in this review, since you partook in the Waldstein blind listening game!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on April 17, 2014, 04:13:49 PM
Listening to Gilels on the Brilliant Box and making comparisons to the sonatas he performs on these to those he made for DG. Just finished with his live Hammerklavier from 1984 and this is head and shoulders above his studio performance that has garnered so many good reviews. Every sonata from the Brilliant box seems better and of course there is that wonderful disc of 8, 14 and 23 recorded live in Moscow at the beginning of the 60s. Does anyone else feel that these performances are superior?

The following sonatas are included: 7, 8, 12, 14 16, 23, 25, 26, 27 and 29. I also have recordings of 21 and 28 that aren't DG. Are there others out there?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 17, 2014, 05:03:32 PM
Quote from: Holden on April 17, 2014, 04:13:49 PMEvery sonata from the Brilliant box seems better...Does anyone else feel that these performances are superior?



I've not heard the recordings on Brilliant, but now I think I should . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 17, 2014, 05:04:55 PM
Quote from: Todd on April 17, 2014, 05:03:32 PM
I've not heard the recordings on Brilliant, but now I think I should . . .

You definitely should.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 17, 2014, 05:05:19 PM
Quote from: Holden on April 17, 2014, 04:13:49 PM
Listening to Gilels on the Brilliant Box and making comparisons to the sonatas he performs on these to those he made for DG. Just finished with his live Hammerklavier from 1984 and this is head and shoulders above his studio performance that has garnered so many good reviews. Every sonata from the Brilliant box seems better and of course there is that wonderful disc of 8, 14 and 23 recorded live in Moscow at the beginning of the 60s. Does anyone else feel that these performances are superior?

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 17, 2014, 11:53:00 PM
Quote from: Holden on April 17, 2014, 04:13:49 PM
Listening to Gilels on the Brilliant Box and making comparisons to the sonatas he performs on these to those he made for DG. Just finished with his live Hammerklavier from 1984 and this is head and shoulders above his studio performance that has garnered so many good reviews. Every sonata from the Brilliant box seems better and of course there is that wonderful disc of 8, 14 and 23 recorded live in Moscow at the beginning of the 60s. Does anyone else feel that these performances are superior?



I prefer the 1984 Hammerklavier.

Quote from: Holden on April 17, 2014, 04:13:49 PM

The following sonatas are included: 7, 8, 12, 14 16, 23, 25, 26, 27 and 29. I also have recordings of 21 and 28 that aren't DG. Are there others out there?

I like the Beethoven op 26 here very much, from 1978

(http://www.vaimusic.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/4468-main_205x290.jpg)

While we're talking live Gilels, there's a recital from October 10 1961 in Moscow which is contained in one of the Art of Emil Gilels boxes, with  the Liszt sonata and the Chopin B flat minor sonata. It is well worth hearing.

(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mDOHfszo5HxB54N6VVH1iag.jpg)

That series, Art of Emil Gilels, contains some other Beethoven sonatas, but I haven't checked whether they're the same as Brilliant's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 19, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41biCUjPKOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


Looks like HJ Lim is no longer the youngest pianist to record a complete sonata cycle.  Melodie Zhao's set is slated for release next month on the fine Claves label.  Currently it seems only MP3 files are available for pre-order, though I'm guessing CDs will be available. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 22, 2014, 09:08:23 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iDor%2BaItL._SY300_.jpg)


Listened to Dina Ugorskaja's second LvB disc a couple times, which contains the rest of the late sonatas, and much like her disc of 106 and 111, the playing is personal but not too idiosyncratic, clear, with superb quiet playing.  I rather hope she records more Beethoven, but even if she does not, between her Beethoven, Schumann, and Handel, she's a pianist I eagerly want to hear more from.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: G. String on April 24, 2014, 02:41:42 AM
Quote from: Holden on April 17, 2014, 04:13:49 PM
Listening to Gilels on the Brilliant Box and making comparisons to the sonatas he performs on these to those he made for DG. Just finished with his live Hammerklavier from 1984 and this is head and shoulders above his studio performance that has garnered so many good reviews. Every sonata from the Brilliant box seems better and of course there is that wonderful disc of 8, 14 and 23 recorded live in Moscow at the beginning of the 60s. Does anyone else feel that these performances are superior?

The following sonatas are included: 7, 8, 12, 14 16, 23, 25, 26, 27 and 29. I also have recordings of 21 and 28 that aren't DG. Are there others out there?

I don't know how to thank for this post. I had the Russian Legends set for a long time and it was cast behind other boxes, gathering dust, untouched. I'm a fan of the sonatas and now I feel like I've discovered one of the best performances ever recorded. The tempi, articulation, the piano, the flow, everything is as I want them to be. The audience noise and cough is a joy-killer for me though. I wish someone could clean those noises. Thanks again anyway...and to whoever recommended Liszt's Via Crucis, too. Never heard that before.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2014, 02:55:34 AM
Quote from: Sammy on March 09, 2014, 08:56:54 AM
I know what you mean about the ornamentation, but I found it only mildly annoying at times.  Still, I wonder why Jumppanen thought his "moves" to be advantageous.

Well there's a fair amount of repetition in the music.

I thought the op2s were nice - especiallly the rubato. I only knew his Boulez before so thanks for pointing out this interesting recording to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 05, 2014, 04:13:06 PM
Just bought Melodie Zhou complete beethoven on 7digital for $13 - 320mp3
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 05, 2014, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: Fred on May 05, 2014, 04:13:06 PMJust bought Melodie Zhou complete beethoven on 7digital for $13 - 320mp3


53 and 106 are on YouTube complete.  Haven't listened to them yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 05, 2014, 08:28:07 PM
Bits I've listened to so far are far from embarrassing. Just got to keep forgetting she's 19.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on May 06, 2014, 12:24:56 AM
just listened to Melodie Zhao out of curiosity [op 106]

very, very good!  the first movement is brisk and bracing and shapely, beautifully articulated and voiced [god knows i love all those interwoven inner lines]. the scherzo is a frantic neurotic swirl. the adagio is surprisingly peaceful, radiant, and a bit austere [which can be a nice change from the many 'end-of-the-world' interpretations]. the finale introduction gave me first real chance for criticism as it felt very sight-read. finally, the fugue was possibly too slick and light...[kinda reminded me of Gould's Bach, without the intellectual ecstasy] but the girl can really play fast!

her tone is lucid and balanced, with a lovely surface sheen.

i'll be looking forward to the rest of her LvB [btw the whole cycle is now on MOG]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 06, 2014, 02:28:31 AM
Totally agree about 106, and boy does she motor through the fugue. She really sounds like she's lived with the piece - and is only 19.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Menschenstimme on May 06, 2014, 01:12:49 PM
I am NO expert on this topic.  I am satisfied with my complete set by Robert Silverman on the Orpheum label.  Does anyone else here own this set?  If so; do you notice a glitch on track 10 of CD #1?  I hear it on some CD players, but on others it plays perfectly.  This is a digital glitch and has nothing to do with the performance.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 06, 2014, 01:14:19 PM
Quote from: Menschenstimme on May 06, 2014, 01:12:49 PM
I am NO expert on this topic.  I am satisfied with my complete set by Robert Silverman on the Orpheum label.  Does anyone else here own this set?  If so; do you notice a glitch on track 10 of CD #1?  I hear it on some CD players, but on others it plays perfectly.  This is a digital glitch and has nothing to do with the performance.

At what time, specifically, does the glitch happen?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 06, 2014, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Menschenstimme on May 06, 2014, 01:12:49 PMI am NO expert on this topic.  I am satisfied with my complete set by Robert Silverman on the Orpheum label.  Does anyone else here own this set?



Yes.  I've never noticed a data issue/digital glitch on my set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 06, 2014, 02:07:16 PM
Quote from: Menschenstimme on May 06, 2014, 01:12:49 PM
I am NO expert on this topic.  I am satisfied with my complete set by Robert Silverman on the Orpheum label.  Does anyone else here own this set?  If so; do you notice a glitch on track 10 of CD #1?  I hear it on some CD players, but on others it plays perfectly.  This is a digital glitch and has nothing to do with the performance.

I listened to that track twice while I was getting ready to go out tonight and I hear no glitch.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2014, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2014, 02:07:16 PM
I listened to that track twice while I was getting ready to go out tonight and I hear no glitch.

You might hear some glitches after your return home.

(http://111.imagebam.com/download/AwEf2LLhSJ9MhdC4eKVExA/32512/325111948/icon_beer.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 06, 2014, 05:10:46 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 06, 2014, 02:18:27 PM
You might hear some glitches after your return home.

(http://111.imagebam.com/download/AwEf2LLhSJ9MhdC4eKVExA/32512/325111948/icon_beer.jpg)

Haha. Actually, I haven't had a drink in almost 19 years.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 07:42:58 AM
On fortepiano I have the incomplete Tan set. What good fortepiano recordings are there?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2014, 07:47:06 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 07:42:58 AM
On fortepiano I have the incomplete Tan set. What good fortepiano recordings are there?

If you're a member of symphonyshare, I put Badura Skoda there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 08:05:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2014, 07:47:06 AM
If you're a member of symphonyshare, I put Badura Skoda there.
What is symphonyshare?
In general I like PDS, but I thought his Beethoven cycle was a modern piano. I have only seen it listed as piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2014, 08:13:09 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 08:05:12 AM
What is symphonyshare?
In general I like PDS, but I thought his Beethoven cycle was a modern piano. I have only seen it listed as piano.

http://symphonyshare.blogspot.co.uk/
There are many Badura Skoda Beethoven recordings. The fortepiano ones are on Astrée.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 08:24:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2014, 08:13:09 AM
http://symphonyshare.blogspot.co.uk/
There are many Badura Skoda Beethoven recordings. The fortepiano ones are on Astrée.
Thanks. I will keep my eye out.
I like the samples I have heard on Azon of the Gramola set. I like the piano. Is that a Bosendorfer? I am getting interested in the different pianos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 10, 2014, 08:24:40 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 08:05:12 AMIn general I like PDS, but I thought his Beethoven cycle was a modern piano. I have only seen it listed as piano.



He recorded three cycles: one on piano (Steinway and Bosendorfer) for Westminster, one on piano (Bosendorfer) for Gramola, and one on a variety of fortepianos for Astree (now out on JVC in Japan).  There is some dispute as to whether he recorded the complete cycle for Westminster, but his website lists it as complete.  I have the Gramola and JVC/Astree cycles, and his fortepiano cycle is definitely better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 08:33:35 AM
I found this by some guy who seems to know his stuff
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=22368.0

Now I am feeling urges ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 15, 2014, 12:02:15 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51t7vM3am8L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


Looking around for some new LvB, I stumbled across volume 3 of a supposedly complete cycle by Claudio Colombo.  Who is Claudio Colombo?  Well, it looks like he's a veritable recording prodigy, having recorded everything under the sun. (http://www.claudiocolombo.net/english.htm)  Sort of like Joyce Hatto, but all digital.

But you can sample his work:

http://www.youtube.com/v/qsjruDewFEM

http://www.youtube.com/v/xhO8bXatZus


Any takers?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on May 15, 2014, 02:25:12 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 15, 2014, 12:02:15 PM
Looking around for some new LvB, I stumbled across volume 3 of a supposedly complete cycle by Claudio Colombo.  Who is Claudio Colombo?  Well, it looks like he's a veritable recording prodigy, having recorded everything under the sun. (http://www.claudiocolombo.net/english.htm)  Sort of like Joyce Hatto, but all digital.

But you can sample his work:
...
Any takers?

Did you see this (http://pianosociety.com/new/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1990)? Page 3 includes his response (in Italian, but google translate seems to get the gist across). I can't say I feel any desire to even sample any of it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 15, 2014, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Pat B on May 15, 2014, 02:25:12 PMDid you see this (http://pianosociety.com/new/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1990)? Page 3 includes his response (in Italian, but google translate seems to get the gist across). I can't say I feel any desire to even sample any of it.



I did not, but I did see a similar discussion on Amazon, just without Mr Colombo.  The LvB clip I included obviously sounds digitally altered to the nth degree - ie, fake - and the accompanying piece of him playing in person indicates why.  I just hope nobody actually pays to hear any of what he has done.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on May 15, 2014, 03:11:12 PM
Earlier today I listened to Hélène Grimaud's Tempest (on her "Credo" disc). I think of Grimaud as a fiery player, but I don't think that description fits here. What I kept noticing here was a delicate touch. If anything, I wished for a bit more fire in the finale. But, I liked it a lot and need to listen to it again.

I also liked the way the Corigliano piece led into it.

I know Sergeant Rock is a fan. Anybody else?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on May 15, 2014, 03:14:53 PM
I remember enjoying her recording of the 4th piano concerto. The Op. 109 and 110 on the same disc were less memorable.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 03:27:35 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 15, 2014, 12:02:15 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51t7vM3am8L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


Looking around for some new LvB, I stumbled across volume 3 of a supposedly complete cycle by Claudio Colombo.  Who is Claudio Colombo?  Well, it looks like he's a veritable recording prodigy, having recorded everything under the sun. (http://www.claudiocolombo.net/english.htm)  Sort of like Joyce Hatto, but all digital.

But you can sample his work:

http://www.youtube.com/v/qsjruDewFEM

http://www.youtube.com/v/xhO8bXatZus


Any takers?
I believe there are electric pianos that can play a score. That's what this sounds like. Yamaha electrics are mentioned on Todd's link.

What's a Joyce Hatto?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 15, 2014, 05:25:23 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 03:27:35 PM
What's a Joyce Hatto?

A modern-day pseudonym for anyone attempting this: "Hoaxterus Maximus". (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2125348/Pianist-Joyce-Hatto-Husband-reveals-fooled-world-fake-recordings.html)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 15, 2014, 07:33:14 PM
Anyone listening to Melodie Zhao.  I've really enjoyed what I've heard so far. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on May 16, 2014, 04:23:03 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 03:27:35 PM

What's a Joyce Hatto?
You didn't buy the boxed set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 16, 2014, 08:40:00 AM
Quote from: The new erato on May 16, 2014, 04:23:03 AM
You didn't buy the boxed set?
I probably did, on other labels ....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 16, 2014, 05:06:48 PM
Listening to Levinas and think he's fantastic.  My first criteria is always technique, because I hate it when it sounds like the pianist (no matter how musical) has to compromise his artistic vision because he doesn't have the chops (e.g. Brendel). Levinas has technique to burn but also wonderful fire and passion.  Really my cup of tea.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 16, 2014, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: Fred on May 16, 2014, 05:06:48 PM
because I hate it when it sounds like the pianist (no matter how musical) has to compromise his artistic vision because he doesn't have the chops (e.g. Brendel).
You are welcome to dislike him all you want, but to claim he lacks technique begets more questions about you than about Brendel. To make matters worse, I think that musicality trumps technique pretty much without fail (for example, an aging Barenboim who is not the same pianist he was years ago, but has so much to say about the music). Having a vision is not about technique (which is can you actually play the music the composer put down on paper), but is about musicality (how to string it all together, etc.). Of couse, one would prefer not to choose between the two. In the case of Brendel, one does not have to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on May 16, 2014, 05:29:46 PM
Brendel has loads of technique. If anything the critique I'd make of his playing is that sometimes there's more technique than insight, the "sewing machine" problem (I do enjoy some of his recordings though)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 16, 2014, 07:28:52 PM
OK, OK. I'm probably wrong about Brendel, and shouldn't have dragged him in. But I do love Levinias.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 16, 2014, 07:43:33 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 16, 2014, 05:24:27 PM
You are welcome to dislike him all you want, but to claim he lacks technique begets more questions about you than about Brendel. To make matters worse, I think that musicality trumps technique pretty much without fail (for example, an aging Barenboim who is not the same pianist he was years ago, but has so much to say about the music). Having a vision is not about technique (which is can you actually play the music the composer put down on paper), but is about musicality (how to string it all together, etc.). Of couse, one would prefer not to choose between the two. In the case of Brendel, one does not have to.
I don't really get the notion Brendel lacks technique. Or anything really. I find his Mozart concerti a bit prettified for my taste, but he's a wonderful pianist in every solo recording I have heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on May 16, 2014, 10:08:16 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 16, 2014, 07:43:33 PM
I don't really get the notion Brendel lacks technique. [...] he's a wonderful pianist in every solo recording I have heard.

I feel the same way. His solo recordings of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, and Schubert are top-flight stuff (for me).

Also, I think there's something misleading about the way the word "technique" is often used. The implication tends to be precision at fast tempo, but what about the clear and balanced articulation of multiple voices simultaneously? I'd call that the fundamental technical challenge of classical piano. Perhaps it's so fundamental that it's easy to overlook, but the best pianists obsess over it. It's at the heart of interpretation at the keyboard, and in that sense there is no separation between technique and musicality.

(I'm probably preaching to the choir here.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on May 16, 2014, 10:16:29 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on May 16, 2014, 10:08:16 PM
I feel the same way. His solo recordings of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, and Schubert are top-flight stuff (for me).

Also, I think there's something misleading about the way the word "technique" is often used. The implication tends to be precision at fast tempo, but what about the clear and balanced articulation of multiple voices simultaneously? I'd call that the fundamental technical challenge of  classical piano. Perhaps it's so fundamental that it's easy to overlook, but the best pianists obsess over it. It's at the heart of interpretation at the keyboard, and in that sense there is no separation between technique and musicality.

(I'm probably preaching to the choir here.)

That miraculous ability to keep all the voices absolutely clear at all times was what made Gould, for all his vocalizations and sometimes odd interpretation, a great pianist. I think he could have played Spem in alium  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 17, 2014, 02:03:22 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 08:24:20 AM
Thanks. I will keep my eye out.
I like the samples I have heard on Azon of the Gramola set. I like the piano. Is that a Bosendorfer? I am getting interested in the different pianos.

It's a Boesendorfer Imperial, yes. In a way the most Viennese of all the LvB Sonata cycles...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on May 17, 2014, 10:32:43 PM
Regarding Brendel, I was really only thinking precision at speed, and note that, in a documentary about Brendel, I remember him expressing surprise about his success because he admitted that others could play faster than him.
Levinas reminds me of Kikuchi, Korstick, et al, but plays with more passion.  Still knocked out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2014, 10:10:30 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41biCUjPKOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)



I started getting antsy about when, or even if, Melodie Zhao's cycle would be released on disc, so I contacted the US distributor of Claves to see if they had any info.  Well, turns out they did not know about the release, but after I provided them with the catalog and EAN numbers (which I would have thought they should be able to get), they confirmed that it should be arriving in the US next month.  Since Peter Rosel's in en route now, I think I can wait that long - but not much longer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on May 21, 2014, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: Fred on May 15, 2014, 07:33:14 PM
Anyone listening to Melodie Zhao. I've really enjoyed what I've heard so far.

Listened to the Pathétique, of which the slow movement is one of my faves. But, to be frank, Mélodie Zhao didn't mesmerize me at all. The Rondo was better played IMO, she managed to give more feeling to the more intimate passages. In general, her approach seems to be rather no-nonsense and there are certainly no long dull legato phrases, which is an approach that I like. Zhao's technique is flawless, as far as I can 'judge'. 

If the entire set is like this, I'd say it's a nice starter for Beethoven newbies.
Mélodie Zhao is still only 19, so I think Beethoven will grow on her.

Who knows, we may expect a new integral when she's 29. And a third one at 39 (et cetera).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on May 22, 2014, 01:59:23 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 21, 2014, 01:23:54 PM
Listened to the Pathétique, of which the slow movement is one of my faves. But, to be frank, Mélodie Zhao didn't mesmerize me at all. The Rondo was better played IMO, she managed to give more feeling to the more intimate passages. In general, her approach seems to be rather no-nonsense and there are certainly no long dull legato phrases, which is an approach that I like. Zhao's technique is flawless, as far as I can 'judge'. 

If the entire set is like this, I'd say it's a nice starter for Beethoven newbies.
Mélodie Zhao is still only 19, so I think Beethoven will grow on her.

Who knows, we may expect a new integral when she's 29. And a third one at 39 (et cetera).

Listening to Opus 101 right now and this is more to my likings. Plenty of innigste Empfindung in movement I, good feeling for contrasting (e)motions in the Scherzo, and a good balance between right and left hand. Maybe I miss a certain amount of Sehnsucht in the slow movement, but Zhao is certainly 'risoluto' enough in the Finale.

I have to admit though that I'm no Beethoven 'expert' at all. I just listen to this great music and enjoy. Even though I know at least a handful (or two) of other Beethoven pianists, I wouldn't dare to make a Top 10 and I wouldn't know how to appreciate Zhao compared to others. Besides that, I've only listened to 2 sonatas so far. But if you can find this set for a cheap price (like some of the mp3 downloads available) it's certainly a steal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on May 23, 2014, 07:05:17 PM
Trudelies Leonhardt's op. 28 with a Seidner fortepiano from ~1815-20 (on Globe) has really grown on me. Today I listened again and liked it so much that I pulled out two bigger names, Kempff (mono) and Gulda (on Amadeo) for comparison (I don't have any other fortepiano recordings of this). The differences in instrument sound are obvious -- clarity and all that. Going beyond that, I think her performance is on a very high level. Her phrasing is very musical. She uses lots of agogic hesitations, but they are very subtle, so that the pulse never gets lost. I like her playing a lot.

It was an interesting experience. I don't usually do much comparative listening.

[asin]B0000264D4[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 24, 2014, 01:41:12 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 22, 2014, 01:59:23 AM
Listening to Opus 101 right now and this is more to my likings. Plenty of innigste Empfindung in movement I, good feeling for contrasting (e)motions in the Scherzo, and a good balance between right and left hand. Maybe I miss a certain amount of Sehnsucht in the slow movement, but Zhao is certainly 'risoluto' enough in the Finale.

I have to admit though that I'm no Beethoven 'expert' at all. I just listen to this great music and enjoy. Even though I know at least a handful (or two) of other Beethoven pianists, I wouldn't dare to make a Top 10 and I wouldn't know how to appreciate Zhao compared to others. Besides that, I've only listened to 2 sonatas so far. But if you can find this set for a cheap price (like some of the mp3 downloads available) it's certainly a steal.

This is now on Spotify so I've sampled a range of the sonatas. For a 19 year old this is reasonably good LvB but it's very MOR. I was thinking about any other very young pianists who might have recorded the '32 and Barenboim came to mind so I did some comparisons. While Zhao is technically very secure there are one or two of the finer aspects of technical prowess that she is yet to fully master. Dynamic range is one and it stands out when comparing her to the young Barenboim. The Arietta of Op 111 is the best case in point. Where DB produces a hushed ethereal atmosphere, Zhao does not play quietly enough to achieve this effect.

That said, her music might certainly mature as she grows older. I sampled Her Liszt TEs and there are strong indications of her innate musicality but once again (Harmonies du Soir) limited dynamic range is obvious. She will remain on my radar.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: early grey on June 07, 2014, 02:44:25 PM
My latest offering of Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas transferred from 78s is Volume 8 which contains Sonatas No.3 in C major (Op.2 No.3), No.17 in D minor (Opus 31 No.2) and No.22 in F major (Opus 54). My impression is that the residual noise is a somewhat reduced in these transfers and I hope listeners feel that too. These performances show that the pianist gave no quarter when the opportunity for grandstanding was available and I feel that some of LVB's subtlety goes begging. For example the finale of Opus 17 is a power house of pianism whereas the score allows for quite a degree of delicacy. Similarly the 2nd movement of opus 54 doesn't have to be the harum-scarum moto-perpetuo we hear, albeit pretty exciting! Elsewhere and particularly the slow movements there is a welcome lack of boisterousness and minimal sentimentality. Each sonata seems to have a different acoustic with No.3 very dry, No.17 clangy and resonant and No.22 relatively normal. 

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcriptions_13.php

If you select Classical 1 from the navigation bar you will find Brahms' 1st Piano Concerto with Schnabel as soloist. The orchestral introduction is very passionate and some details of orchestration are interesting given the techniques of the day, worth a listen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: xochitl on June 09, 2014, 12:30:54 AM
just heard Kempff do the Waldstein [mono] after years of staying away based on the stereo op57 & 106 [among other things]. i couldn't figure out for my life why people swore by his beethoven.

but this Walstein is MIRACULOUS! :flail:
i feel like i just found the holy grail. looking forward to the rest of the mono cycle!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: king ubu on June 09, 2014, 01:27:38 AM
I like the Kempff mono a lot (don't know his stereo), but his late sonatas aren't all that good, I find. His kinda "improvisatory" playing and rather soft touch doesn't help him much there, I find.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on June 09, 2014, 10:01:45 PM
Kempff mono is just great. Love the playing, love the sound. Among the late sonatas, his Op. 109 stands out to me.

Of course, I'm also fond of Kempff stereo...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: struwwelpeter on June 15, 2014, 09:31:39 PM
I'm still catching up on this thread - about page 60 at the moment, but I wondered if the helpful folk here might be able to clear something up for me?  In the notes to his 'Artist's Choice' collection, Brendel says that the included version of the Hammerklavier is his favourite of the five recordings he made of the piece.  I've been looking and I can only find four: the early Vox, the 1970s Philips one, the BBC live one from 1983 (also released by Philips), and the live one from Vienna in 1995 included on his 1990s cycle (and appearing in the Artist's Choice).  Was there another?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 16, 2014, 09:47:32 AM
Quote from: struwwelpeter on June 15, 2014, 09:31:39 PM
I'm still catching up on this thread - about page 60 at the moment, but I wondered if the helpful folk here might be able to clear something up for me?  In the notes to his 'Artist's Choice' collection, Brendel says that the included version of the Hammerklavier is his favourite of the five recordings he made of the piece.  I've been looking and I can only find four: the early Vox, the 1970s Philips one, the BBC live one from 1983 (also released by Philips), and the live one from Vienna in 1995 included on his 1990s cycle (and appearing in the Artist's Choice).  Was there another?

I too only know the four you mention. I very much like the 1995 Vienna one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on June 16, 2014, 10:56:32 AM
I don't know any of them, but a quick amazon search reveals a 1970 Paris recording on an EMI DVD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089HAT/?tag=goodmusicguideco). It's also on this Bluray (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00HS7C0D8/?tag=goodmusicguideco) which is on my wishlist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 18, 2014, 11:54:17 PM
Quote from: Fred on February 28, 2014, 03:49:05 PM
This is a quite fascinating comparison of tempos in the first movement of 106.  It seems that Schnabel wins by a short head over Korstick, Geiseking and Leslie (who I think is excellent).  Barenboim and Gould get the wooden spoon.

http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/en/5_autograph_tempo_in_beethoven%92s_%93hammerklavier_sonata%94_1321.html

I put together some comparative timings for the sonata, but I'm not sure it helped very much; though I did discover Leslie (who is indeed excellent, though the sound is not great) and my favourite non-fast 106/i, Buchbinder. (Well, sorta non-fast. His opening tempo is about the same as Gulda's, but then he slows down significantly for the second theme... speeds up again into the fugue... etc. It's a highly dramatic rendition & v effective.) Lévinas is also in the half note = 120 range, though less polished; Taub and Goodyear both clock somewhere around 123. Mélodie Zhao is with PBS and Leslie in the environs of 116.

However closeness to the indicated metronome mark doesn't seem to indicate whether I will actually like the performance. I didn't like Taub or Goodyear very much for instance. (I didn't like Gieseking very much either; don't think it was the slips, Lévinas has lots of those and I like him.)

Similarly in the fugue

<---- Beethoven's indication of quarter note = 144 ---->
Goodyear - 143
Schnabel - 139
Korstick - 137
Taub - 136
Gieseking - 135
Zhao - 134
...
Gulda - 129 <------- second favourite probably
Arrau - 128 <------- my personal favourite performance
Kovacevich - 126 <------- another one I like
...
etc.

Also, I was sort of shocked to see how many slow movements are over 20 minutes long. I thought the average was like... 16 or 17.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 28, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
CAROL ROSENBERGER - Listened to her play op 57 and 111 on Delos.  Prodigious technique.  Fourth variation of the arietta floored me. Wondered why I never heard of her before.  Interesting article.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-03-24/entertainment/ca-30081_1_carol-rosenberger
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2014, 05:21:30 AM
So far so promising! Wholly different kettle of fish than the HJ Lim thing.

(http://33.media.tumblr.com/2c1f852fd1f7f36ad1674fb62271c023/tumblr_n7zblyqT9t1tvs6uwo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2014, 07:00:34 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2014, 05:21:30 AM
So far so promising! Wholly different kettle of fish than the HJ Lim thing.

(http://33.media.tumblr.com/2c1f852fd1f7f36ad1674fb62271c023/tumblr_n7zblyqT9t1tvs6uwo1_1280.jpg)

Tell us more!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2014, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: George on July 01, 2014, 07:00:34 AM
Tell us more!!

well played... not ostentatious... but with very nice rhythmic takes, notably unusual, in a very pleasing way, in the Largo of op.7, for example... only on disc 4 so far -- but so far, a very enchanting experience, which I cannot say about all LvB cycles.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 01, 2014, 01:02:48 PM
I listened to these on Spotify a few weeks ago and agree that they are good performances. However, a limited dynamic  range does have an overall effect after a while and maybe that is something that Zhao needs to work on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on July 01, 2014, 04:07:27 PM
Just listened with much interest to Yves Nat playing 28 and 30-32.

Any one cares to comment on his playing ? I know he is much revered in France, but from his integral (this is the last disc) I have had moments of elation and others of ho-humness.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2014, 04:24:31 PM
Quote from: André on July 01, 2014, 04:07:27 PM
Just listened with much interest to Yves Nat playing 28 and 30-32.

Any one cares to comment on his playing ? I know he is much revered in France, but from his integral (this is the last disc) I have had moments of elation and others of ho-humness.

I enjoy his set. Not among my top favorites, but definitely a consistent set, with unique interpretations. I really like his Op. 7.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2014, 09:01:28 PM
Someone just put me on to this recording by Peter Serkin, saying that it's valuable because somehow he succeeds in playing with very long phrases on a Graf. I've been playing the op 109, and they're right. It's as if Serkin's fortepiano has the sustain of a modrn piano in some of the voices. The result is something quite different from the usual story on period instrument - a real cantabile performance. Worth catching - I can imagine for some people this is the ideal late Beethoven - all the clarity and percussiveness  of a Graf and yet all the lyricism of a modern instrument, the performance deeply felt and romantic, not unlike his father's.

I'm looking forward to exploring the other sonatas on the CD

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/151/MI0001151923.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 06, 2014, 04:51:46 AM
Quote from: André on July 01, 2014, 04:07:27 PM
Just listened with much interest to Yves Nat playing 28 and 30-32.

Any one cares to comment on his playing ? I know he is much revered in France, but from his integral (this is the last disc) I have had moments of elation and others of ho-humness.

Better in the ealy sonatas, op 2 ans 10
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on July 20, 2014, 07:43:44 AM
The Fugue in the Hammerklavier is one nut that continues to resist me. But yesterday's listening of the Nat performance left me in shambles. I had never heard the jerky nature of that fugue so eloquently argued and naturally voiced as here. Mind you it's still a crazy piece (like the Grosse Fuge), but I uderstand it better now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2014, 08:58:01 AM
(http://www.pentatonemusic.com/syscontent/news_gallery/5.png)


Mrs Nagano's cycle will be issued in box format in September.  Looks like I'll be getting four cycles played by women this year.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 24, 2014, 08:02:50 AM

Coming near the end of the year or early next from DG: Maurizio Pollini, Complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas

Will get the press text anon... but it seems in the bag. Only been in the making for as long as I live!  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 24, 2014, 08:19:01 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 24, 2014, 08:02:50 AMComing near the end of the year or early next from DG: Maurizio Pollini, Complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas


I certainly hope DG releases the last disc of sonatas independently, because I do not want to buy a box just to get a handful of sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 28, 2014, 05:51:34 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71ScqezF6sL._SL400_.jpg)



Looks like Italian pianist Letizia Michielon kicked off her cycle earlier this year.  Her cover uses a different translation of an Immanuel Kant quote that was also used on Pavaali Jumppanen's first volume.  A new trend?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 12, 2014, 12:13:12 PM
Sony is issuing a volume-by-volume sonata cycle by Yu Kosuge.  Three twofers with twenty sonatas are currently out, and they appear to be coming out each year, so a 2016 end date seems probable, with a box probably to follow, most likely in time for 2020.  The sets are themed!  Anyway, the cycle appears meant for the Japanese market, but Amazon US also lists them, along with some other core rep.


(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/43/1/8/559.jpg)

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/52/8/8/137.jpg)

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/56/8/9/803.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 14, 2014, 08:18:27 AM
From PentaTone records: "Japanese pianist Mari Kodama is only the fourth woman to have recorded all of Beethoven's sonatas."

Off the top of my head:
Annie Fischer
Anne Oland
HJ Lim
Melodie Zhao
Idil Biret
Tatiana Nikolayeva (live)

So PentaTone is full of, uh, baloney.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on August 14, 2014, 09:17:13 AM
BalognaTone!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 14, 2014, 09:33:05 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 14, 2014, 08:18:27 AM
From PentaTone records: "Japanese pianist Mari Kodama is only the fourth woman to have recorded all of Beethoven's sonatas."

Off the top of my head:
Annie Fischer
Anne Oland
HJ Lim
Melodie Zhao
Idil Biret
Tatiana Nikolayeva (live)





So PentaTone is full of, uh, baloney.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-1770-1827-Klaviersonaten-Nr-1-32/hnum/9817828

and Maria Grimberg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 14, 2014, 09:42:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 14, 2014, 08:18:27 AMFrom PentaTone records: "Japanese pianist Mari Kodama is only the fourth woman to have recorded all of Beethoven's sonatas."

So PentaTone is full of, uh, baloney.


After seeing the link to Rita Bouboulidi, I am now aware of 14 cycles recorded by women, of which I own 11.  It really isn't that hard to find them on the interwebs:

Annie Fischer
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Maria Grinburg
Anne Oland
HJ Lim
Melodie Zhao
Yaeko Yamane
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Rita Bouboulidi
Idil Biret
Mari Kodama
Daniela Varinska
Shoko Sugitani
Irina Mejoueva

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2014, 12:05:46 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2014, 09:42:13 AM

After seeing the link to Rita Bouboulidi, I am now aware of 14 cycles recorded by women, of which I own 11.  It really isn't that hard to find them on the interwebs:

Annie Fischer
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Maria Grinburg
Anne Oland
HJ Lim
Melodie Zhao
Yaeko Yamane
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Rita Bouboulidi
Idil Biret
Mari Kodama
Daniela Varinska
Shoko Sugitani
Irina Mejoueva


But did they all record ALL the sonatas? HJ Lim, for example, it could be argued, did not. Is it also possible that when they began the project, she would have been the fourth? I don't doubt that they are full of baloney, but am curious if there is a way to get to their #4 or not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 14, 2014, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2014, 12:05:46 PM
But did they all record ALL the sonatas? HJ Lim, for example, it could be argued, did not. Is it also possible that when they began the project, she would have been the fourth? I don't doubt that they are full of baloney, but am curious if there is a way to get to their #4 or not.



HJ Lim excepted, all of them recorded the 32.  Kodama started around 2003.  At that point, at least five other cycles were complete (Fischer, Nikolayeva, Grinburg, Yamane, Oland), and at least three others were underway (Nakamichi, Sugitani, Biret [may have been done]).  Muriel Chemin also started around the same time as Kodama, if memory serves.  I attribute Pentatone's statement to incompetence and/or laziness. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on August 14, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2014, 12:05:46 PM
But did they all record ALL the sonatas? HJ Lim, for example, it could be argued, did not.

It's a fact that she left out nos. 19 and 20.  She offers some lame excuse for not including them.  The only way her incomplete set could be competitive with the many complete sets from other pianists would be if her interpretations were top of the line.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Her cover states "Complete Piano Sonatas", misleading to say the least.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 14, 2014, 01:17:46 PM
Just checked; Idil Biret finished recording her last volume in May 2008.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 14, 2014, 06:25:55 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 14, 2014, 08:18:27 AMSo PentaTone is full of, uh, baloney.



It seems that Pentatone is not the original source of the fourth cycle misstatement.  The original seems to be in a review by blogger Remy Franck on the Pizzicato site, who in covering the Op 31 disc in 2006 stated that "Japanese pianist Mari Kodama is only the fourth woman to take a chance on the complete recording of Beethoven's sonatas."  This is even more inaccurate, of course. 

In perusing the list of the complete cycles, it would be possible to state that Ms Kodama is the fourth Japanese woman to record the cycle, so there's that.
Title: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leo K. on August 17, 2014, 01:40:20 AM
Quote from: Sammy on August 14, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
It's a fact that she left out nos. 19 and 20.  She offers some lame excuse for not including them.  The only way her incomplete set could be competitive with the many complete sets from other pianists would be if her interpretations were top of the line.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Her cover states "Complete Piano Sonatas", misleading to say the least.

Despite the missing nos.19 and 20, Kim's set is revelatory. Her tone and nuances reveal twists and turns that amplify the structure and musical argument of each work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: yeongil on August 18, 2014, 02:41:39 AM
Quote from: Sammy on August 14, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
It's a fact that (HJ Lim) left out nos. 19 and 20.  She offers some lame excuse for not including them.  The only way her incomplete set could be competitive with the many complete sets from other pianists would be if her interpretations were top of the line.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Her cover states "Complete Piano Sonatas", misleading to say the least.
Technically, wouldn't most sets with the title "Complete Piano Sonatas" be misleading anyway, because they don't include the three of WoO 47, WoO 50, or WoO 51?  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 19, 2014, 02:59:55 AM
Quote from: yeongil on August 18, 2014, 02:41:39 AM
Technically, wouldn't most sets with the title "Complete Piano Sonatas" be misleading anyway, because they don't include the three of WoO 47, WoO 50, or WoO 51?  >:D

You've got a point. There's nothing especially magical about the fact that certain sonatas got numbers, and opus numbers (not least because it turns out that the dispensation of opus numbers for Beethoven's works wasn't remotely regular - it wasn't even always in publication order).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on August 19, 2014, 03:48:11 AM
I have no problem with recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas omitting WoO 47, 50 & 51 and/or Opus 49. For the most part they are rather uninteresting music, with not as much to recommend them as the sonatas of e.g. Hummel or Clementi let alone Beethoven's mature works that he saw fit to publish (from Opus 2 onwards). Of course I don't buy that Opus 49 was published against Beethoven's will as some people have claimed, I imagine he needed the money and was hoping to capitalise on the popularity of the minuet from his Septet Opus 20... Beethoven was only an intransigent old curmudgeon when it suited him, when it didn't he was only too happy to turn out things like the alternate finale to Opus 130 (a masterpiece in its own way imo) or all those folksong arrangements.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on August 19, 2014, 04:05:08 AM
Even Beethoven had to make a living. The concept of churning out music without any regard to who will pay to listen to the damn thing is a relatively new concept.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on August 19, 2014, 02:22:56 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 19, 2014, 02:59:55 AM
You've got a point. There's nothing especially magical about the fact that certain sonatas got numbers, and opus numbers (not least because it turns out that the dispensation of opus numbers for Beethoven's works wasn't remotely regular - it wasn't even always in publication order).

For the most part, the works that got opus numbers were the ones that Beethoven thought were worthy of opus numbers.

The only completed piano sonatas that didn't get numbers are the three of WoO 47, published when he was 12 or 13 (with a dedication referring to them as "juvenile attempts"), and WoO 50, which was not quite as early but still several years before op. 1.

The two of op. 49 are the only ones that are disputed. My understanding is that they were written around 1795, probably as teaching pieces, and that we can only speculate on whether he eventually supported their publishing. At minimum, they are not juvenilia. Although they are not as significant as the other 30 numbered ones, I think it's disingenuous -- or maybe a publicity stunt -- to label a set of 30 as "complete."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 05:48:22 AM
Quote from: Pat B on August 19, 2014, 02:22:56 PM
For the most part, the works that got opus numbers were the ones that Beethoven thought were worthy of opus numbers.

For the most part.

You're just restating the question in a different way.  Why, exactly, should we continue to hold onto a system established in the 19th century that isn't too bad, for the most part, but is in fact known to be not completely accurate? Why ignore a further 150+ years of further scholarship? If a set of 30 piano sonatas - based on the ones that Beethoven most clearly intended to publish - isn't allowed to be labelled 'complete', why should a set of 32 piano sonatas - based on the ones that got opus numbers - be allowed to be labelled 'complete' when it is known with certainty that it isn't complete?

It's perhaps worth mentioning that I've just purchased a set of Beethoven's piano trios. The number of piano trios you get in a 'complete' set of piano trios is far, far more variable than with the piano sonatas, and once you get past opus 1, opus 11 (almost invariably the violin version instead of the original), opus 70 and opus 97, the numbering tends to be all over the place as well (op.44 ALWAYS seems to be a higher 'piano trio' number than the opus 70 and 97 trios). No-one seems to get terribly worked up about it though. And yet, one pianist deciding to record 30 rather than 32 sonatas gets people in a lather.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 20, 2014, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 05:48:22 AMwhy should a set of 32 piano sonatas - based on the ones that got opus numbers - be allowed to be labelled 'complete' when it is known with certainty that it isn't complete?



It's a 20th century recording thing that started with Schnabel, and has been repeated for the last eighty years.  It's tradition.  Some people don't like tradition.  That's fine.  But Lim's excuse was lame.  It was and is a marketing gimmick.  As were the glamour shots and the absurdly low, loss-leader style pricing.  Marketing gimmicks have been around for a good, long time now, too. Had Lim delivered great performances, there would be a greater focus on the quality of her playing.  As it is, I found her gimmicky with her first twofer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 07:13:58 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 20, 2014, 05:56:49 AM


It's a 20th century recording thing that started with Schnabel, and has been repeated for the last eighty years.  It's tradition.  Some people don't like tradition.  That's fine.  But Lim's excuse was lame.  It was and is a marketing gimmick.  As were the glamour shots and the absurdly low, loss-leader style pricing.  Marketing gimmicks have been around for a good, long time now, too. Had Lim delivered great performances, there would be a greater focus on the quality of her playing.  As it is, I found her gimmicky with her first twofer.

I won't deny that Lim was engaging in a 'gimmick', but so was Schnabel. Labelling it as 'tradition' just means it's an old gimmick.

Also, I suspect people just like the number 32 for its symmetry as a power of 2. You've got to hand it to Beethoven, having 32 piano sonatas and 16 string quartets is just perfect.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:16:59 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 07:13:58 AM
I won't deny that Lim was engaging in a 'gimmick', but so was Schnabel. Labelling it as 'tradition' just means it's an old gimmick.

Also, I suspect people just like the number 32 for its symmetry as a power of 2. You've got to hand it to Beethoven, having 32 piano sonatas and 16 string quartets is just perfect.
32 sonatas, 16 quartets, 8 symphonies...wait
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 07:19:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:16:59 AM
32 sonatas, 16 quartets, 8 symphonies...wait

It's okay. Turns out that somehow implying one can't get to double figures in symphonies is also a handy little selling feature.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 20, 2014, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 07:13:58 AMLabelling it as 'tradition' just means it's an old gimmick.


Not really. 


Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 07:13:58 AMAlso, I suspect people just like the number 32 for its symmetry as a power of 2.


Huh? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on August 20, 2014, 01:15:59 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 05:48:22 AM
For the most part.

You're just restating the question in a different way.  Why, exactly, should we continue to hold onto a system established in the 19th century that isn't too bad, for the most part, but is in fact known to be not completely accurate? Why ignore a further 150+ years of further scholarship? If a set of 30 piano sonatas - based on the ones that Beethoven most clearly intended to publish - isn't allowed to be labelled 'complete', why should a set of 32 piano sonatas - based on the ones that got opus numbers - be allowed to be labelled 'complete' when it is known with certainty that it isn't complete?

I was responding to your statement: "There's nothing especially magical about the fact that certain sonatas got numbers, and opus numbers." You make it sound like the assignment of opus numbers was arbitrary. But Beethoven was surely conscious of it (though we can probably agree that some of those decisions were affected by financial concerns). It's different than, say, Dvořák, whose publisher is known to have outright ignored his numberings.

AFAIK 32 is not "in fact known to be not completely accurate." I'm not aware of any evidence that in 1805 (or afterwards) Beethoven opposed the publication or numbering of op. 49. If I'm missing something, let me know.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the redefinition of complete to 30 has only been proposed as part of a recording project that seems like one big publicity stunt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 20, 2014, 01:29:41 PM
Quote from: Pat B on August 20, 2014, 01:15:59 PM
I was responding to your statement: "There's nothing especially magical about the fact that certain sonatas got numbers, and opus numbers." You make it sound like the assignment of opus numbers was arbitrary. But Beethoven was surely conscious of it (though we can probably agree that some of those decisions were affected by financial concerns). It's different than, say, Dvořák, whose publisher is known to have outright ignored his numberings.

AFAIK 32 is not "in fact known to be not completely accurate." I'm not aware of any evidence that in 1805 (or afterwards) Beethoven opposed the publication or numbering of op. 49. If I'm missing something, let me know.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the redefinition of complete to 30 has only been proposed as part of a recording project that seems like one big publicity stunt.

The word "complete" is confusing and misused, not only in the context of Beethoven´s piano sonatas.

F.i. the Brilliant Classics as well as the Am@do "complete" Beethoven boxes are far from complete even if both includes the Kurfürsten-Sonaten.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 20, 2014, 01:35:55 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 20, 2014, 01:29:41 PMThe word "complete" is confusing and misused, not only in the context of Beethoven´s piano sonatas.



To the extent it is confusing, it is because people are purposely making it confusing.  The word is not really misused, either.  When the phrase "complete sonatas" is used, it means the 32 piano sonatas with opus numbers.  Excuse me, the 32 solo piano sonatas, lest someone try to argue about Op 6.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 20, 2014, 01:43:16 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 20, 2014, 01:35:55 PM


To the extent it is confusing, it is because people are purposely making it confusing.  The word is not really misused, either.  When the phrase "complete sonatas" is used, it means the 32 piano sonatas with opus numbers.  Excuse me, the 32 solo piano sonatas, lest someone try to argue about Op 6.

Yes, it has been the common way of using the term since Schnabel's recording. But I think it was confusing already then. For complete means complete.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 20, 2014, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 20, 2014, 01:43:16 PMFor complete means complete.



Yes, but how far, precisely, should it go?  Should sketches be included?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 03:30:24 PM
Quote from: Pat B on August 20, 2014, 01:15:59 PM
I was responding to your statement: "There's nothing especially magical about the fact that certain sonatas got numbers, and opus numbers." You make it sound like the assignment of opus numbers was arbitrary. But Beethoven was surely conscious of it (though we can probably agree that some of those decisions were affected by financial concerns). It's different than, say, Dvořák, whose publisher is known to have outright ignored his numberings.

AFAIK 32 is not "in fact known to be not completely accurate." I'm not aware of any evidence that in 1805 (or afterwards) Beethoven opposed the publication or numbering of op. 49. If I'm missing something, let me know.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the redefinition of complete to 30 has only been proposed as part of a recording project that seems like one big publicity stunt.

No, when I said the opus numbering system was known not to be completely accurate, I was referring to the opus numbering system, not just the piano sonatas. It is undoubtedly not completely accurate and is indeed quite arbitrary at times. I contacted Barry Cooper at one point to ask him how on earth An die Hoffnung managed to be op.32 when it was written several years later, and he pointed out to me that some opus numbers weren't used in the original sequence, with the gaps being filled by Artaria in 1819, and that some of the opus numbers we now know off by heart were different when the works were first published. It is simply not the case that there was a regular, orderly allocation of opus numbers by the composer. We know that it was a mess for Haydn and Mozart and Schubert as well, and as a result we rarely use their opus numbers, but for some reason we've clung to Beethoven's as more meaningful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on August 20, 2014, 06:02:51 PM
Okay. I thought we were talking about the piano sonatas, specifically whether a set that omits op. 49 can legitimately be considered complete.

You're right, of course, that the opus numbers have some problems elsewhere. The problems are not on the same order as those for Haydn, Mozart, and Schubert, which is probably why everyone continues to use them for Beethoven. (It's worth noting that even for Haydn and Schubert, opus numbers are still used for some pieces, and that the Hoboken and Köchel catalogs are hardly perfect.)

But if you start using Biamonti numbers, I won't complain. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 20, 2014, 06:08:48 PM
What Schubert works are commonly referred to by opus number? Is this specific to certain countries? I don't know a single Schubert opus number, but I know 7 or 8 D. numbers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on August 20, 2014, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 20, 2014, 06:08:48 PM
What Schubert works are commonly referred to by opus number? Is this specific to certain countries? I don't know a single Schubert opus number, but I know 7 or 8 D. numbers.

The two sets of Impromptus are often referred to as Opp. 90 and 142, the first published version of Erlkönig is sometimes referred to as Op. 1, the Trout Quintet is sometimes Op. 114 and the two Piano Trios are sometimes Opp. 99 and 100 (esp in older editions & recordings). The Fantasy in F minor is usually listed with a split Op. / D. number (D. 940 / Op. 103), the String Quintet less often (D. 956 / Op. 163). I've seen opus numbers on a couple of the piano sonatas as well, though not as many.

Other composers with persistent opus number problems are Schumann (not only are the opus numbers achronological, but so is every other numbering system people have devised to keep track of his works), Dvořák, Busoni (dear god) and anyone whose works were published before 1750. Not to forget all the composers who started out using opus numbers but then gave up on them after a short while: Bartók (who restarted his opus numbering from 1 twice before giving up altogether), Strauss, Hindemith etc.

It's hard to think of any really accurate opus number sequences actually.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 06:52:39 PM
Quote from: Pat B on August 20, 2014, 06:02:51 PM
Okay. I thought we were talking about the piano sonatas, specifically whether a set that omits op. 49 can legitimately be considered complete.

We are. The point is that saying "we can call it complete if we have all the ones with opus numbers, and ignore the ones without opus numbers" is every bit as arbitrary as saying "we can call it complete if we have all the ones we're confident Beethoven intended to publish soon after composition, and ignore the ones that languished for years". Opus numbers are just as arbitrary a criterion as any other.

The fact that the piano sonatas managed to avoid having a lot of really obvious inconsistencies and anachronisms in their numbering does not mean that Herr Beethoven somehow lavished particular special care over the numbering of the piano sonatas while letting his other works go hang. Seeing them as a well-planned set is an anachronism. I'm not at home so I can't check the email again right now, but I'm pretty sure that Barry Cooper gave me op.31 as an example of a set of works that were not originally published with the numbering we now treat as an immutable, fixed quantity.

In fact I'm not sure there's any evidence at all of Beethoven numbering his works or caring about the topic. At that time it was very much the domain of publishers, not composers. The very reason that Dvorak got upset with his publisher is that by Dvorak's time, many composers did use opus numbers for their own purposes. Dvorak's manuscripts have very clear opus numbers on them. I'm not aware of a Beethoven manuscript that does the same. It's also very clear that many sequences in Beethoven's numbering exist because he sold a number of works to a particular publisher as a job lot, and that this drives the numbering rather than any kind of compositional sequence. Cooper's biography has quite a few examples of this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 06:57:18 PM
Quote from: amw on August 20, 2014, 06:27:23 PM
It's hard to think of any really accurate opus number sequences actually.

Holmboe seems to have done alright. Samuel Barber. Rachmaninov. Faure's quite reliable once you get past opus 10. Everything up to 10 was a backwards allocation when the Cantique de Jean Racine was published as op.11. Opuses 1 to 8 actually scramble Faure's early songs quite badly. There is no opus 9, and opus 10 was used for the duets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 20, 2014, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 20, 2014, 01:35:55 PM


To the extent it is confusing, it is because people are purposely making it confusing.  The word is not really misused, either.  When the phrase "complete sonatas" is used, it means the 32 piano sonatas with opus numbers.  Excuse me, the 32 solo piano sonatas, lest someone try to argue about Op 6.

Lortie included Op. 6 in his set.
I do not have that many sets, ten or twelve I think,  and of them I think only Buchbinder included the Electoral sonatas.  Has anyone else included them in a complete cycle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:08:31 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 20, 2014, 07:04:45 PM
Lortie included Op. 6 in his set.
I do not have that many sets, ten or twelve I think,  and of them I think only Buchbinder included the Electoral sonatas.  Has anyone else included them in a complete cycle?

Ronald Brautigam, Jeno Jando, Peter Takacs, Gerard Willems
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sammy on August 20, 2014, 07:10:00 PM
I'll try to wrap this up from my end.  When EMI splashed a "Complete Piano Sonatas" on the front cover of the set, they knew very well that most potential buyers would assume a set of 32 specific solo piano sonatas.  I have no problem with offering less than the 32; my problem is with EMI's deceptive packaging and disrespect for its customers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 20, 2014, 07:16:22 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:08:31 PM
Ronald Brautigam, Jeno Jando, Peter Takacs, Gerard Willems

Thanks.  Brautigam is likely my next set when the box comes out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 07:33:38 PM
Quote from: Sammy on August 20, 2014, 07:10:00 PM
I'll try to wrap this up from my end.  When EMI splashed a "Complete Piano Sonatas" on the front cover of the set, they knew very well that most potential buyers would assume a set of 32 specific solo piano sonatas.  I have no problem with offering less than the 32; my problem is with EMI's deceptive packaging and disrespect for its customers.

Fair enough. But it does lead me to ask why there is not similar outrage over the fact that the first 3 sets of "complete piano trios" I just found online have 10, 11 and 13 works on them.  The set of 'complete piano trios' with 11 works even numbers them as 1-9, 11 and 12!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 20, 2014, 07:16:22 PM
Thanks.  Brautigam is likely my next set when the box comes out.
Be warned the Brautigam box is being promised as 9 CDs and the individual discs are up to 13 or 14, so the electoral sonatas might not be included.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 20, 2014, 07:41:28 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:35:58 PM
Be warned the Brautigam box is being promised as 9 CDs and the individual discs are up to 13 or 14, so the electoral sonatas might not be included.
They are.  but at that price I may not get it.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lWttJ8wSL.jpg)
Title: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Leo K. on August 20, 2014, 09:12:50 PM

Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 07:33:38 PM
Fair enough. But it does lead me to ask why there is not similar outrage over the fact that the first 3 sets of "complete piano trios" I just found online have 10, 11 and 13 works on them.  The set of 'complete piano trios' with 11 works even numbers them as 1-9, 11 and 12!

Exactly.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on August 20, 2014, 11:53:34 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 20, 2014, 07:04:45 PM
Lortie included Op. 6 in his set.
I do not have that many sets, ten or twelve I think,  and of them I think only Buchbinder included the Electoral sonatas.  Has anyone else included them in a complete cycle?

Quote from: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:08:31 PM
Ronald Brautigam, Jeno Jando, Peter Takacs, Gerard Willems

Malcolm Bilson et al.
Label: Claves.

http://www.claves.ch/categories/piano/albums/beethoven-the-complete-32-piano-sonatas-on-period-instruments-in-addition-the-three-bonn-kurfursten-sonatas
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 21, 2014, 05:58:17 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 20, 2014, 07:08:31 PM
Ronald Brautigam, Jeno Jando, Peter Takacs, Gerard Willems


And Yamane and Nodaira.  It should be noted that the Willems recordings of the WoO works came years after the original; the original set was envisioned as the 32 by ABC and Willems and recorded thusly.



Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 06:52:39 PMIn fact I'm not sure there's any evidence at all of Beethoven numbering his works or caring about the topic.


So what?  Beethoven also didn't care about recordings.  Recordings and the concept of cycles, complete or otherwise, are products of the 20th Century.  The established practice when someone records a complete cycle is to record the 32 established as the complete sonatas.  Dropping a couple and still calling it a complete set is a gimmick. 

I suppose musicologists might have reason to worry a great deal about opus numbering, and what constitutes an accurate or meaningful sequence, and perhaps a musicologist will establish a new practice that gains wide acceptance.  That is distinct from recordings and recording practices, at least for now. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2014, 06:10:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2014, 05:58:17 AM

So what? 

I was addressing an argument put to me that Beethoven was conscious of the opus numbering of his works. If you think that argument is hogwash, you need not concern yourself with its refutation. You can just continue on, comfortable in the knowledge that Schnabel's decisions were intrinsically and inherently right - or whatever it is you know.

I agreed with you, by the way, that Lim was engaged in a gimmick. All I said to you was that deciding to record 32 sonatas was every bit as much a 'gimmick', and just because a lot of people repeat the same 'gimmick' for decades and turn it into a 'tradition' doesn't make it an objective truth.  Liszt's 'gimmick' was to perform from memory, and then it became standard practice. That doesn't mean that all pianists before Liszt were inherently inferior and incompetent because they used sheet music.

I also agreed with Sammy that, given the current state of affairs, people are likely to feel misled by a package that is labelled 'complete piano sonatas' and which has 30 piano sonatas rather than 32. That still doesn't make it true that a set of 32 piano sonatas is objectively and inherently complete. It quite clearly isn't entirely 'complete' by virtue of the fact that people have produced recordings of 35 piano sonatas, with 35 being a larger number than 32. It's just that 'sonatas with opus numbers' has become the standard criterion for the piano sonatas - in stark contrast to the piano trios, where the notion of what makes a set 'complete' is highly variable.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 06:32:13 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 06:52:39 PM
We are. The point is that saying "we can call it complete if we have all the ones with opus numbers, and ignore the ones without opus numbers" is every bit as arbitrary as saying "we can call it complete if we have all the ones we're confident Beethoven intended to publish soon after composition, and ignore the ones that languished for years". Opus numbers are just as arbitrary a criterion as any other.

The fact that the piano sonatas managed to avoid having a lot of really obvious inconsistencies and anachronisms in their numbering does not mean that Herr Beethoven somehow lavished particular special care over the numbering of the piano sonatas while letting his other works go hang. Seeing them as a well-planned set is an anachronism. I'm not at home so I can't check the email again right now, but I'm pretty sure that Barry Cooper gave me op.31 as an example of a set of works that were not originally published with the numbering we now treat as an immutable, fixed quantity.

In fact I'm not sure there's any evidence at all of Beethoven numbering his works or caring about the topic. At that time it was very much the domain of publishers, not composers. The very reason that Dvorak got upset with his publisher is that by Dvorak's time, many composers did use opus numbers for their own purposes. Dvorak's manuscripts have very clear opus numbers on them. I'm not aware of a Beethoven manuscript that does the same. It's also very clear that many sequences in Beethoven's numbering exist because he sold a number of works to a particular publisher as a job lot, and that this drives the numbering rather than any kind of compositional sequence. Cooper's biography has quite a few examples of this.

I agree that the concept of an integral set is anachronistic. But that doesn't mean you can pick any n and declare that to be complete.

The order of opus numbers is independent of which works have opus numbers, and irrelevant to the question of what "complete" means.

Let's suppose you're right about opus numbers being arbitrary. Still:

WoO 47 are clearly juvenilia. Beethoven said as much himself.
WoO 50 is borderline juvenilia, possibly incomplete, and was clearly never intended for publication.
WoO 51 is a fragment; the completion is by Ries.
Op. 49 may or may not have had Beethoven's blessing for publication.

I think that's solid grounds for all of the WoO pieces being optional, and flimsy grounds for omitting op. 49.

BTW Cooper's edition included the 32 with opus numbers and the 3 of WoO 47, but not WoO 50 or WoO 51.

Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 07:33:38 PM
Fair enough. But it does lead me to ask why there is not similar outrage over the fact that the first 3 sets of "complete piano trios" I just found online have 10, 11 and 13 works on them.  The set of 'complete piano trios' with 11 works even numbers them as 1-9, 11 and 12!

The trios are less cut-and-dried than the sonatas. I think the big discrepancy is whether "complete" must include the reductions (one of which was not done by Beethoven, and may or may not have been approved by him). I lean towards yes for op. 36 and 38, but it's more debatable than op. 49.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2014, 06:46:22 AM
Quote from: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 06:32:13 AM
The order of opus numbers is independent of which works have opus numbers, and irrelevant to the question of what "complete" means.

As I've already said to you, not everything that has opus numbers now had opus numbers when it was published. I went back and checked, it was indeed opus 31 that had no opus number at the time of publication.  Regardless of the numbers given, why exactly is it important that a publisher fixed a list of works that had opus numbers after the fact?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 21, 2014, 07:09:56 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 21, 2014, 06:10:54 AMAll I said to you was that deciding to record 32 sonatas was every bit as much a 'gimmick', and just because a lot of people repeat the same 'gimmick' for decades and turn it into a 'tradition' doesn't make it an objective truth.



I suppose tradition may not equate with objective truth.  At the same time, you stating that any given traditional practice is a gimmick does not mean that it's a gimmick.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2014, 07:12:00 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2014, 07:09:56 AM


I suppose tradition may not equate with objective truth.  At the same time, you stating that any given traditional practice is a gimmick does not mean that it's a gimmick.

You don't think that saying "look, I can play ALL of these" is designed to impress?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 21, 2014, 07:19:19 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 21, 2014, 07:12:00 AMYou don't think that saying "look, I can play ALL of these" is designed to impress?



It depends on the pianist.  With some younger pianists like, perhaps, HJ Lim or Melodie Zhao, who are trying to establish reputations, it seems probable.  For older, more established artists, maybe not.  They may have other motives.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 21, 2014, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 20, 2014, 02:02:54 PM


Yes, but how far, precisely, should it go?  Should sketches be included?

You have got some point there.

IMO the term "Beethovens complete piano sonatas" should include the 32 sonatas with opus numbers and four works without opus numbers: The three Electoral sonatas (which BTW are better than their reputation) and the youthful sonata in C major.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 21, 2014, 07:43:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 21, 2014, 07:30:19 AM
You have got some point there.

IMO the term "Beethovens complete piano sonatas" should include the 32 sonatas with opus numbers and four works without opus numbers: The three Electoral sonatas (which BTW are better than their reputation) and the youthful sonata in C major.

WoO 51, right?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on August 21, 2014, 08:10:34 AM
Quote from: George on August 21, 2014, 07:43:27 AM
WoO 51, right?

Yes, right.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 08:30:35 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 21, 2014, 06:46:22 AM
As I've already said to you, not everything that has opus numbers now had opus numbers when it was published. I went back and checked, it was indeed opus 31 that had no opus number at the time of publication.  Regardless of the numbers given, why exactly is it important that a publisher fixed a list of works that had opus numbers after the fact?

Sorry, I misunderstood you -- I thought you meant that op. 31 were originally published with some different opus number(s), not no opus number at all.

I think Beethoven was conscious of opus numbers, not that they are the be-all-end-all arbiter of completeness (I realize this wasn't clear in my earlier posts). But in the case of the piano sonatas, and also the concertos, the set of works that now have opus numbers turns out to be a good functional definition of "complete." There are good reasons to consider the 5 earliest sonatas as non-canonical -- even Cooper omits 2 of them -- but I haven't heard a compelling reason to do the same for any of the traditional 32.

Maybe somebody will eventually uncover some evidence that op. 49 can be considered optional, but Ms. Lim's factually incorrect (regarding relative composition dates of op. 2 and op. 49) blurb doesn't convince.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on August 21, 2014, 11:24:15 AM
Beethoven's general practice was to attach opus numbers to those published works he regarded as most important, but orfeo's right that he wasn't always fastidious about it. Some works with an opus number were originally published with a different opus number. Some were originally published without one, which may reflect the composer's intent, a publisher's mistake, or a miscommunication (or lack of communication) with the publisher. In cases like these, the opus numbers we now use stem from either catalogs of his works that appeared later or (as with the Op. 31 sonatas) subsequent editions.

It's also worth mentioning that for his first ~15 years in Vienna, Beethoven had a secondary numbering system for "less significant" works that he published, such as variation sets. He made a point of having the Opp. 34 and 35 variation sets published with opus numbers, rather than including them in the secondary series.

So he was conscious of opus numbers, but they're not totally reliable (just as Pat B said).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 07:12:40 AM


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kbBJMf2qoKg/U85r_6z2dcI/AAAAAAAAHeM/BDnyUcuWMIM/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2014.gif)


Notes from the 2014 Salzburg Festival ( 10 )
Beethoven Sonata Cycle III • Buchbinder


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-W-801o0kfhY/U_c6J8pVoHI/AAAAAAAAHnQ/sqldc2dCoCk/s1600/Salzburg_Buchbinder-1_Beethoven_(c)_Silvia_Lelli_laurson_ionarts_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-10_22.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-10_22.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 08:58:37 AM
New find for me:

Rita Bouboulidi (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0062FMXSE/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0062FMXSE&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkId=YOHDK7JGLWNWDSG7)

also: http://ritabouboulidi.com/ (http://ritabouboulidi.com/)

She also played all the 32 in New York, in the 80s... about which H.Schoenberg writes in the NYT: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9806EEDF103EE631A2575AC0A9679C94619FD6CF (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9806EEDF103EE631A2575AC0A9679C94619FD6CF)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 29, 2014, 03:20:14 PM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/59/3/7/569.jpg)

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/59/3/7/570.jpg)


Andromeda is releasing a near complete set of sonatas by Walter Gieseking (no Op 54 recording was made/survives), but that would require them to mix and match EMI and broadcast recordings (previously on Tahra).  I might bite, if the mix is right.



(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/59/1/8/499.jpg)


Eric Le Sage also has an LvB disc coming out.  I wasn't wowed by his Schumann, but maybe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on August 29, 2014, 04:05:52 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 29, 2014, 03:20:14 PM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/59/3/7/569.jpg)

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/59/3/7/570.jpg)


Andromeda is releasing a near complete set of sonatas by Walter Gieseking (no Op 54 recording was made/survives), but that would require them to mix and match EMI and broadcast recordings (previously on Tahra).  I might bite, if the mix is right.

Dare I point out, they are clearly misusing the word "All" here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on August 29, 2014, 04:13:59 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 29, 2014, 04:05:52 PM
Dare I point out, they are clearly misusing the word "All" here.

I know! Where is WoO 47? And the Andante favori?! >:(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on August 29, 2014, 04:39:30 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 29, 2014, 04:05:52 PM
Dare I point out, they are clearly misusing the word "All" here.
Not at all.
All the music is by Beethoven.  No sonatas by Mozart, Chopin, Scriabin, etc.    >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on August 29, 2014, 04:57:28 PM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 29, 2014, 05:03:24 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 29, 2014, 04:05:52 PMDare I point out, they are clearly misusing the word "All" here.



Yes, Andromeda is misusing the word "all".  Since Mr Gieseking has been dead for decades, I won't hold it against him.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ken B on August 29, 2014, 07:42:47 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 29, 2014, 04:05:52 PM
Dare I point out, they are clearly misusing the word "All" here.
"Plays only piano sonatas by Beethoven" doesn't have that marketing oomph.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2014, 08:16:23 AM
There's some completely wild Beethoven by Anny Fischer just on symphonyshare, a concert in Hungary from 1954 with, amongst other things, op 2/3 and op 10/2. Well worth hearing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 06, 2014, 04:06:29 PM
HEIDSIECK BARGAINS

Was just over at HMV Japan and bought 8 Heidsieck King Records releases (including three or four beethoven taped in japan) for 1000 yen each.  Release dated is 8 October!!!
Have just been listening to his mozart sonatas. Luminous.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on September 06, 2014, 04:42:53 PM
Heidsieck's complete LvB sonatas is on a cheap 50 disc EMI box. Priceless.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 06, 2014, 05:33:28 PM
Heidsieck is so good it's easy to miss how good he is.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 08, 2014, 07:39:00 PM
.
[asin]B00MUUPELI[/asin]


Timothy Ehlen's next volume it out later this month.  Looks like he jumped on the daft theme band wagon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on September 08, 2014, 08:23:05 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 08, 2014, 07:39:00 PM

Timothy Ehlen's next volume it out later this month.  Looks like he jumped on the daft theme band wagon.

Heaven Sent Taboos? Surely that won't appear on the sleeve...it would be hard to think of a more randomly pointless thing to say. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 09, 2014, 01:57:31 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 12, 2014, 12:13:12 PM
Sony is issuing a volume-by-volume sonata cycle by Yu Kosuge.  Three twofers with twenty sonatas are currently out, and they appear to be coming out each year, so a 2016 end date seems probable, with a box probably to follow, most likely in time for 2020.  The sets are themed!  Anyway, the cycle appears meant for the Japanese market, but Amazon US also lists them, along with some other core rep.

Just bought the first twofer and played my big litmus test (last movement of op31.3).  Despite the presto marking, she takes an incredibly leisurely 5.24.  Now I'm depressed. I don't think I can go on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on September 09, 2014, 01:58:26 AM
Just bought the first twofer and played my big litmus test (last movement of op31.3).  Despite the presto marking, she takes an incredibly leisurely 5.24.  Now I'm depressed. I don't think I can go on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 15, 2014, 07:06:49 PM
HMV Japan lists Pollini playing Opp 31 and 49 (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_%E3%83%99%E3%83%BC%E3%83%88%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A7%E3%83%B3%EF%BC%881770-1827%EF%BC%89_000000000034571/item_Piano-Sonata-16-17-18-19-20-Pollini_5997989), slated for release in November, on the same day that the complete cycle comes out.  Only problem is that it is an SHM-CD and costs a little less than half what the box does.  Perhaps a regular CD will be made available.  I also wonder if the inclusion of 31/2 may be an error, since he already recorded it, or if this means he rerecorded it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on September 15, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2014, 07:06:49 PM
I also wonder if the inclusion of 31/2 may be an error, since he already recorded it, or if this means he rerecorded it.

Or maybe they just used the old recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 16, 2014, 04:54:43 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on September 15, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
Or maybe they just used the old recording.

BIS is getting really lazy about this. They "finished" their Shosty symphony cycle with a new recording coupled to an old one; they just did a Vanska/Lahti Sibelius album that had been half-released already; and next month they are reissuing the Singapore SO's (surprisingly interesting) Debussy La mer with new couplings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2014, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on September 15, 2014, 11:47:46 PMOr maybe they just used the old recording.



Maybe, but that would be out of character for the Pollini releases.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 18, 2014, 10:08:32 AM
Reissued for the needy!

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/01/1/4/667.jpg)

The Hungaroton cycle is back, this November.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 18, 2014, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2014, 10:08:32 AM
Reissued for the needy!

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/01/1/4/667.jpg)

The Hungaroton cycle is back, this November.

Thanks, Brian. Do you have any other info? Will it be remastered? Is it import only? Reduced price?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 18, 2014, 10:26:56 AM
Quote from: George on September 18, 2014, 10:20:19 AM
Thanks, Brian. Do you have any other info? Will it be remastered? Is it import only? Reduced price?
Not sure. Saw it in HMV Japan's pre-order list. Here is the listing. (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Beethoven-1770-1827_000000000034571/item_Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Annie-Fischer-9CD_114667) There are at least two more in this series of Annie Fischer reissues, live recitals (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Piano-Concert_000000000230513/item_Annie-Fischer-Encore-In-Concert-Schubert-Chopin-Schumann-2CD_6000447) and "Centennial Collection" (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Piano-Collection_000000000017977/item_Annie-Fischer-The-Centennial-Collection-Mozart-Beethoven-Concerto-Schubert-Liszt-3CD_5799503).

If you go to the effort to find the answers to those questions do post. :) I am posting the non-Beethoven sets in the New Releases thread.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on September 18, 2014, 10:33:26 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2014, 10:26:56 AM
Not sure. Saw it in HMV Japan's pre-order list. Here is the listing. (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Beethoven-1770-1827_000000000034571/item_Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Annie-Fischer-9CD_114667) There are at least two more in this series of Annie Fischer reissues, live recitals (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Piano-Concert_000000000230513/item_Annie-Fischer-Encore-In-Concert-Schubert-Chopin-Schumann-2CD_6000447) and "Centennial Collection" (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Piano-Collection_000000000017977/item_Annie-Fischer-The-Centennial-Collection-Mozart-Beethoven-Concerto-Schubert-Liszt-3CD_5799503).

If you go to the effort to find the answers to those questions do post. :) I am posting the non-Beethoven sets in the New Releases thread.
At current rates, the yen being weaker than usual, $118US after VAT deductions.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2014, 06:59:55 PM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/59/9/7/989.jpg)


(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/59/8/8/835.jpg)



Looks like 31/2 is a new recording, and the complete set will be squeezed into eight discs, meaning that duplicate recordings will be pruned.  Guess I'm glad I bought the set one disc at a time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on September 24, 2014, 09:50:14 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2014, 06:59:55 PM
Looks like 31/2 is a new recording...
Mystery solved!

Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2014, 06:59:55 PM
...and the complete set will be squeezed into eight discs, meaning that duplicate recordings will be pruned.  Guess I'm glad I bought the set one disc at a time.

Me, too. My guess is they'll probably use the newer take of op.22 and not the exquisite live one from 1998.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2014, 09:42:21 AM
Ronald Brautigam on three different fortepianos all made my Paul McNulty after historic pianos of the period to match the composition years - images of the instruments from Brautigam's website - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5cCzG3p/0/O/Beethoven_Brautigam.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pmB7B4t/0/M/McNulty_Stein-M.png)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QvwxzFR/0/M/McNulty_WandS-M.png)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-V8wNZ5p/0/M/McNulty_Graf-M.png)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on October 29, 2014, 04:04:07 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2014, 10:08:32 AM
Reissued for the needy!

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/01/1/4/667.jpg)

The Hungaroton cycle is back, this November.
I'm dying to get this, after all the highly interesting things I've read about this set, both on here and on other platforms. Hope the price won't be as steep as the previous edition of this set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on October 29, 2014, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: betterthanfine on October 29, 2014, 04:04:07 AM
I'm dying to get this, after all the highly interesting things I've read about this set, both on here and on other platforms. Hope the price won't be as steep as the previous edition of this set.

I wonder if the new issue will be arranged chronologically, or retain the odd pairings from the original. I'd much prefer the former.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Papy Oli on October 29, 2014, 08:05:41 AM
Quote from: George on October 29, 2014, 04:05:49 AM
I wonder if the new issue will be arranged chronologically, or retain the odd pairings from the original. I'd much prefer the former.

it has the mixed pairings of the single CD's - Not chronological at all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 29, 2014, 08:31:04 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on October 29, 2014, 08:05:41 AM
it has the mixed pairings of the single CD's - Not chronological at all.

And do we know why it was ordered like that?

To some extent it's all a bit irrelevant in these post CD days.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on October 29, 2014, 08:59:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 29, 2014, 08:31:04 AM
And do we know why it was ordered like that?

To some extent it's all a bit irrelevant in these post CD days.

I think it was ordered like that because each CD was released separately, and for marketing reasons Hungaroton wanted to pair "well-known" sonatas with other, less "marketable" ones.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 29, 2014, 05:32:35 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2014, 09:42:21 AM
Ronald Brautigam on three different fortepianos all made my Paul McNulty after historic pianos of the period to match the composition years - images of the instruments from Brautigam's website - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5cCzG3p/0/O/Beethoven_Brautigam.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pmB7B4t/0/M/McNulty_Stein-M.png)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QvwxzFR/0/M/McNulty_WandS-M.png)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-V8wNZ5p/0/M/McNulty_Graf-M.png)

Listening to CD 6 right now (sonatas 21 to 25).
So far I like what I hear, but no fully formed opinion yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 01, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
Been listening to "Sergio Fiorentino" playing 111 on the Concert Artists Label.  I know a lot/some of those recordings are supposed to be fake.  But if this isn't the real Fiorentino then the fake artist is a player and a half.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on November 01, 2014, 04:18:10 PM
Quote from: Fred on November 01, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
Been listening to "Sergio Fiorentino" playing 111 on the Concert Artists Label.  I know a lot/some of those recordings are supposed to be fake.  But if this isn't the real Fiorentino then the fake artist is a player and a half.

Well, as I remember it, any Concert Artists release should be considered as a fraud. Most of these recordings were made with young pianists from eastern Europe in the 90s, and then degraded to sound as if older.
I've never bought one of these CDs though, so I can't really say if I think it might possibly be Fiorentino or not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 02, 2014, 10:36:41 AM
Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 01, 2014, 04:18:10 PM
Well, as I remember it, any Concert Artists release should be considered as a fraud. Most of these recordings were made with young pianists from eastern Europe in the 90s, and then degraded to sound as if older.
I've never bought one of these CDs though, so I can't really say if I think it might possibly be Fiorentino or not.

This page might be helpful. It's certainly worth reading.

http://www.fortepianos.org/elumpe/SFDiscography.html#BEETHOVEN
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 02, 2014, 10:42:20 AM
A really impressive Op 111 on this 2CD set from Melodiya

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BfG0jIjlL._SL1000_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 02, 2014, 10:50:25 AM
Quote from: Holden on November 02, 2014, 10:42:20 AM
A really impressive Op 111 on this 2CD set from Melodiya

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BfG0jIjlL._SL1000_.jpg)
I hate it when the cover is so small that you cant read the text! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2014, 02:59:59 PM
I just actually did a double fist-pump, pivoted my hips, and shouted "YESSS!" That actually happened. For real. Because I saw this:

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/mo0510cvrfb.jpg)

"Penelope Crawford presents a program of four of Beethoven's most important transitional sonatas, bridging the gap between his "middle" and "late" periods. Composed against the backdrop of Napoleonic Europe and Metternich's Congress of Vienna, these four works chart Beethoven's growth as a composer in a rapidly changing world. As with her first Beethoven sonata recording (opp. 109 – 11, Musica Omnia MO 0308), a splendid fortepiano by the great Viennese builder, Conrad Graf, is used here."

Release March 2015. Forgive a squeal of excitement aaaiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Also, and mostly unrelatedly, February 2015:

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/mo0507cvrfb-300x298.jpg)

"Schubert's unforgettable characterizations of women: Gretchen, Suleika, Mignon, Ellen and Delphine are the subject of this CD, devoted to exploring Schubert's homage to das ewig Weibliche, Goethe's expression for the eternally feminine. Soprano Marta Guth and fortepianist Penelope Crawford present these unique portraits with insight and sympathy, enhanced by the use of a magnificent original fortepiano by the great Viennese maker, Conrad Graf."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 04, 2014, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2014, 02:59:59 PM(http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/mo0510cvrfb.jpg)



I sure hope this means she records all 32, and in time for 2020.  I'd take 2027 if I had to. 

A 2015 purchase is now scheduled.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 04, 2014, 06:40:52 PM
HOLDEN - Thanks. So it appears that not all the Fiorentino Beethoven is of questionable provenance.  Further, as I said, if the guy playing 111 is a nobody, he seems to me a magnificent nobody.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 07, 2014, 09:40:04 PM
Quote from: Holden on November 02, 2014, 10:42:20 AM
A really impressive Op 111 on this 2CD set from Melodiya

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BfG0jIjlL._SL1000_.jpg)

There's one which I think is even more impressive from his concerts in 2004, the one recorded (very well) in Bad Kissingen. I can upload it for you if you want.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 14, 2014, 01:06:33 AM


I note that Lukas Geniusas is about to bring out a Hammerklavier. According to the back cover at Amazon, the first movement will be 8 minutes 42 seconds (sic).  Surely, that is a new record 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on November 14, 2014, 01:17:22 AM
If the repeat is played, probably yes. Korstick is a few seconds under 9 minutes (including repeat), I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on November 14, 2014, 01:32:37 AM
If he leaves out the repeat he's taking it at about the same speed as Kempff; if he takes it it's the record, though not by much.  Schnabel clocks in at 8:44 with repeat (8:48 on some transfers), Gieseking is next in line at 9:00 dead on and Korstick third (though more technically secure than either) at 9:08. I think Robert Taub is 4th.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on November 14, 2014, 01:46:36 AM
On the back of my ars musici (this was an older issue) disc of Korstick it says 8:59, but I have not checked the actual length (there is often some silence before the end of a track).
Gieseking is with repeat? where did this one appear? I wasn't even aware of its existence. Gulda is at something like 9:25 with repeat and I think Goodyear? (pretty recent one, I only heard bits of it online when it came out) was also really fast, around about 9 min. I'd guess.
I seem to recall that I found Schnabel and Korstick too hectic for my taste, taking it a little slower like Gulda (or even into the 10:30-50 of Pollini, Arrau, Rosen) and more flexible is more successfull. The flexibility in the more lyrical bits might be more important than the actual speed/playing time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on November 14, 2014, 02:10:31 AM
Beethoven was very clear that a metronome marking was supposed to apply only to the opening bars of a work, and that the tempo should change with the character of the music (though subtly enough that it could only be detected by the most sophisticated ear, or something). Korstick's playing of 106/i is exemplary as to the way everyone should be doing it, but unfortunately he's not quite good enough to pull it off—technically it's perfect, the character of the movement comes through in the best possible way, but musically he doesn't emphasize the right notes (listen to the very opening where he doesn't bring out the motive in the 5th finger of the right hand for instance) or allow the phrases to breathe. Compared to what e.g. Richter or Serkin might have been able to do with this movement at this tempo, it's a bit prosaic. But for whatever reason the greatest pianists don't seem to want to take the time to learn the Hammerklavier at tempo, or aren't able to, or something. I'm not sure.

For 106/i it's hard to recommend anyone faster than Gulda (9:27), Goodyear if you can tolerate bad sound. Gulda plays slower on average but still does come up to the Schnabel tempo on occasions. A similar recommendation can be made for Michaël Lévinas (9:30)—who unlike Gulda establishes the tempo at the beginning, but then slows down more significantly. Rosen 1965 (10:17) is exemplary in how to play the Hammerklavier more slowly while still conveying the character of the music. Others in the 9:50-10:00 range are also recommendable e.g. PBS (on a Graf 1824), Michael Leslie (bad sound again) or Mélodie Zhao. I generally don't see a good reason to listen to 106/is exceeding 10:45 ish—doesn't seem like there's much anyone can bring to the slow Hammerklavier that hasn't already been brought by Pollini or Gilels.

There's a Gieseking recital from 1949 on Music & Arts and now a complete cycle being assembled—not sure if those are two different versions. I wouldn't recommend either one by the way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 20, 2014, 09:47:48 AM
Comments appreciated on this old recording of op 110 by Ernst Levy, especially about the way he plays the third movement.

People who know about the music: how "correct" is it, in the sense of whether or not it goes against Beethoven's expressed intentions in the score etc? Does it matter?

http://www.youtube.com/v/VwdCZMXD0F0

(Extraordinary that a recording of this stature, of this degree of imagination, should be so little known.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on November 20, 2014, 11:37:32 AM
Yes it's one of the most remarkable recordings of this sonata, there are several of them but it might be in my top five.

Levy's permanent rhetorical care doesn't impede the perfect fluidity of his playing. Such a perfect mix of complete control and total freedom is just fascinating. And I think the last movement is an authentic tour de force: Levy avoids and even rejects any notion of rythmic safety, and again, with much freedom, he entirely concentrates on the building of tension, progressively, as if aggregating or melting it from the smallest elements, out of nowhere.

Levy's interpretations are always among the most remarkable and without equivalent at the same time, and it is among the absolute best in my opinion, as is his op. 111, by the way. It's just a shame it is not more widely (and cheaply) distributed. It is public domain after all...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on November 21, 2014, 02:27:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 20, 2014, 09:47:48 AM
Comments appreciated on this old recording of op 110 by Ernst Levy, especially about the way he plays the third movement.

People who know about the music: how "correct" is it, in the sense of whether or not it goes against Beethoven's expressed intentions in the score etc? Does it matter?

http://www.youtube.com/v/VwdCZMXD0F0

(Extraordinary that a recording of this stature, of this degree of imagination, should be so little known.)

Indeed a superlative performance. In its combination of extreme attention to detail with fluidity and a natural sense of architecture it reminds me somewhat of Charles Rosen's own recording of Op. 110 (specifically his third and finest one, 1997), though not in most other ways. (Levy's obviously thought it out in great detail; if he too wrote a book that involves the Beethoven sonatas, it's worth reading.) The 2nd arioso is an inspired moment, if I hadn't heard it myself I would have sworn it to be impossible to play it that way and make it work. Perhaps most remarkable overall is the sense of space created by the almost-excessive tapering of phrases, like tempo "hairpins", which if he used them less often (or less carefully) would turn into an irritating mannerism. Conveys the feeling of the sonata being much bigger than it is if that makes any sense, like there's so much more we can't hear under the surface. I'm probably just less eloquently repeating things Scherzian wrote but whatever.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 21, 2014, 03:49:26 AM
Re the second movement, which is for me the hard one, especially in the scherzo, I'm not sure if I've heard a more convincing performance than Levy's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 21, 2014, 08:25:54 AM
Quote from: amw on November 21, 2014, 02:27:07 AM
Indeed a superlative performance. In its combination of extreme attention to detail with fluidity and a natural sense of architecture it reminds me somewhat of Charles Rosen's own recording of Op. 110 (specifically his third and finest one, 1997), though not in most other ways. (Levy's obviously thought it out in great detail; if he too wrote a book that involves the Beethoven sonatas, it's worth reading.) The 2nd arioso is an inspired moment, if I hadn't heard it myself I would have sworn it to be impossible to play it that way and make it work. Perhaps most remarkable overall is the sense of space created by the almost-excessive tapering of phrases, like tempo "hairpins", which if he used them less often (or less carefully) would turn into an irritating mannerism. Conveys the feeling of the sonata being much bigger than it is if that makes any sense, like there's so much more we can't hear under the surface. I'm probably just less eloquently repeating things Scherzian wrote but whatever.

One  remarkable thing about the op 110/iii is the way he manages tempo and dynamics. The way the first fugue gets faster and faster and at the same time increases in volume, becoming euphoric. And then -- and this is a real stroke of genius, the 2nd arisoso begins with quite a fast pace, and quite loud -- as if it got some energy from the fugue. Energy which recedes, dies down, exhausts itself, burns out  (quieter, slower pulse.) Has there ever been a more rapt, more dramatic, sequence of chords? I can't help but think of those chords at the end of the Liszt sonata, which Levy plays so well.

The final fugue seems to increase in energy -- again pulse and volume increasing. This is the most dionysian, the most life affirming, the most dynamic demonic, final fugue ever.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on November 21, 2014, 08:57:15 AM
Is it available on CD?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 21, 2014, 09:12:50 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on November 21, 2014, 08:57:15 AM
Is it available on CD?

Sadly, no. Marston has only CD-R copies. http://www.marstonrecords.com/html/order.htm

It' s in Volume 2 of their Levy series: http://www.marstonrecords.com/levy2/levy2_liner.htm
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on November 21, 2014, 10:02:58 AM
Thanks, gents! It's truly a superlative rendition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 21, 2014, 11:02:41 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on November 21, 2014, 10:02:58 AM
Thanks, gents! It's truly a superlative rendition.

Levy is one of those great, hidden pianists. I recommend all four volumes of his work on the Marston label.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on November 21, 2014, 12:19:13 PM
Alas, the Marston site is not compatible with secure ordering and there's no way I'm sending my credit card details via fax.

George, if you ever happen to find a second copy in that nice place off Union Square, do grab it for me.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 21, 2014, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on November 21, 2014, 12:19:13 PM
Alas, the Marston site is not compatible with secure ordering and there's no way I'm sending my credit card details via fax.

George, if you ever happen to find a second copy in that nice place off Union Square, do grab it for me.  8)

Will do, buddy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cosi bel do on November 21, 2014, 02:11:58 PM
It's a shame only Marston would distribute Levy's record, even while they are PD. I mean, Membran could really make a best seller 10 CD box out of these recordings...
I actually don't own any of these Marston CDs : they are expensive and most of them were already out of print when I started to get interested in Levy a few years ago. And I really don't want to pay that much for a CD-R, that plus the fact it's public domain, I'd really feel robbed...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2014, 08:33:50 AM
Quote from: Scherzian on November 20, 2014, 11:58:07 AM
I'm planning to re-listen to this performance of Op.110 by Ernst Levy tonight (CET...  ;)).  The third movement is obviously where Ernst Levy's mastery of musical time, within the largest of forms, is at its apex; I remember it being extremely convincing (to me, I mean) and equally dauntless.  Each main `section' (Adagio ma non troppo, Recitativo, First Arioso, Fugue, Second Arioso, Inversion of the Fugue) progressively blends into its neighbour.  An example of a mind playing the musical spirit that lies beyond the letter and that the letter, IMO, calls for.  I can certainly understand why it would be dismissed (though I would probably not agree with the reasons for dismissing it).  Apart from the somewhat extreme level of broad tempo malleability throughout the third movement, I don't recall any aspect of the performance that could be considered `incorrect'.  For me, it does not go against any indication present in the score, but it does liberally and extensively expands those indications throughout the Finale.  And even that large-scale tempo ductility does seem to me to obey one important aspect of the piece (as pointed out by Charles Rosen, for instance), namely the progressive `densification' of the contrapuntal textures firstly through an enlargement of the tempo (at bar Nr.168, Meno allegro, Etwas langsamer), and secondly through a subsequent broad accelerando (at about bars Nr.172-173, nach und nach wieder geschwinder).  What I'm saying isn't clear at all...  I'll try to post another message tonight.  Charles Rosen has some extremely interesting insights about the Finale in his so-called `little' guide; I'll try to find them (and translate them back to English, where they belong...).  And Levy's piano playing is fabulous, of course!

EDIT:  While I was typing (and checking...) my message, came in Discobolus' message.  I wholeheartedly agree with Discobolus.  Op.110 has an enviable number of great, great performances on disc:  Edwin Fischer, Maria Grinberg, Emil Gilels, Heinrich Neuhaus, Rudolf Serkin (at least the one from the early 1960s), Anatoly Vedernikov, Sviatoslav Richter (all of them, early or later!), and I'm sure I'm forgetting some of them, maybe even Yves Nat and Wilhelm Backhaus are interesting here.  And I'd like to point out the fabulous recording made in February 1980 at Saratov (Philharmonic Hall) by Igor Zhukov; this one is available on a Telos CD, and should not be missed. Zhukov is probably less `daring' than Ernst Levy, but the quality of his playing is completely off the chart.  The first movement, for example, finds an exquisite lyric-like quality that's extremely rare, I think, especially thanks to the quality of his sonority and the length of its resonance. Igor Zhukov also manages each and every transition (and we know they are vital here) to utmost perfection.  Unbelievable, really.  From the technical side, the Telos CD is exceptional, too.

This was a very good suggestion, thanks for sharing your discovery.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on November 30, 2014, 01:18:22 AM
Todd is going get another workout. The much anticipated Pollini box set comes out on Tuesday. It's already on Spotify. There are some multiple recordings of some of the sonatas by MP so I wonder which ones they will choose?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2014, 07:07:53 AM
Quote from: Holden on November 30, 2014, 01:18:22 AMThe much anticipated Pollini box set comes out on Tuesday.




The single disc of Opp 31 and 49 doesn't hit US shores until January, so I will be waiting a few weeks.  The new 31/2 is the one used in the set, and I would think that where multiple recordings exist, the later recording will be used.  The twofer that had studio and live recordings of Opp 57 and 78 poses an interesting choice for DG and Pollini, though.  Since I have all the single discs except the new one, I won't have to choose.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 30, 2014, 08:11:04 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 30, 2014, 07:07:53 AM
The single disc of Opp 31 and 49 doesn't hit US shores until January, so I will be waiting a few weeks.  The new 31/2 is the one used in the set, and I would think that where multiple recordings exist, the later recording will be used.  The twofer that had studio and live recordings of Opp 57 and 78 poses an interesting choice for DG and Pollini, though.  Since I have all the single discs except the new one, I won't have to choose.

They would be fools not to include the live performances. Those were excellent.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on November 30, 2014, 02:20:12 PM
In the  Pollini complete set, Opus 26 and 53 are live performances, the rest studio. After listening halfway through it is very impressive--a lot like Gulda in terms of tempo/technique, which is just fine by me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 30, 2014, 02:21:02 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 30, 2014, 02:20:12 PM
In the  Pollini complete set, Opus 26 and 53 are live performances, the rest studio. After listening halfway through it is very impressive--a lot like Gulda in terms of tempo/technique, which is just fine by me.

Interesing. So they left the studio ones out or included both?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2014, 02:34:36 PM
Quote from: George on November 30, 2014, 02:21:02 PM
Interesing. So they left the studio ones out or included both?


It's eight discs, so they would have had to leave them out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: J.A.W. on November 30, 2014, 03:21:45 PM
The DG site has the complete listing with audio tracks, but it doesn't say anything about live/studio: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4794120 (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4794120)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on November 30, 2014, 09:32:16 PM
The Pollini set has no double performances--just the 32 played once
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on November 30, 2014, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on November 30, 2014, 02:20:12 PM
In the  Pollini complete set, Opus 26 and 53 are live performances.

A wise move. That release was fantastic. They should have included the live op.22 as well, a better rendition than the studio one (which is still good).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 01, 2014, 12:30:59 AM
So, is Pollini going to set a new benchmark and be rated along with Annie Fischer as producing one of the great LvB cycles? I've only heard the last 5 which is superb and the live Waldstein. I'm listening to Op 2/2 as I write this post and it's very good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 01, 2014, 06:36:38 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 01, 2014, 12:30:59 AMSo, is Pollini going to set a new benchmark and be rated along with Annie Fischer as producing one of the great LvB cycles?



Not for me.  His Beethoven certainly can be among the best, but not always.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on December 02, 2014, 02:29:23 PM
The Tchetuev redordings (6 volumes so far) are very fine. Unfortunately, he hasn't released another volume for a long time, and I fear perhaps Caro Mitis went under.....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on December 02, 2014, 03:18:29 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 9, 2014 - onward

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

New section of the Beethoven Sonata Survey started: No.9 with Timothy Ehlen ("heaven sent taboos", indeed!  ::)), Maurizio Pollini, and Christian Leotta.

Also updated Part 8: Part 8: 2010 - 2013 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html), since El Bacha has recorded a second set and Guy and Kodama have since had the complete sets published.

On the radar, but not included because either not yet complete or not yet published or because I've been remiss:

Jumppanen
Bavouzet
Russian Collective
Costa
Colombo
Uchida
Hewitt
Tchetuev
Biss
Kikuchi
Sakiya
Varinska
Roscoe
Mejoueva
Leotta
Yamane
Brawn
Tengstrand
Bouboulidi
Kolesnitschenko / Mursky
Tengstrand


It's a never ending project and must still contain many lacunae... so more information and corrections are always common. (Just don't be snide about it, when making them.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2014, 06:00:04 AM
Quote from: amw on November 14, 2014, 02:10:31 AM
Beethoven was very clear that a metronome marking was supposed to apply only to the opening bars of a work, and that the tempo should change with the character of the music (though subtly enough that it could only be detected by the most sophisticated ear, or something). Korstick's playing of 106/i is exemplary as to the way everyone should be doing it, but unfortunately he's not quite good enough to pull it off—technically it's perfect, the character of the movement comes through in the best possible way, but musically he doesn't emphasize the right notes (listen to the very opening where he doesn't bring out the motive in the 5th finger of the right hand for instance) or allow the phrases to breathe. Compared to what e.g. Richter or Serkin might have been able to do with this movement at this tempo, it's a bit prosaic. But for whatever reason the greatest pianists don't seem to want to take the time to learn the Hammerklavier at tempo, or aren't able to, or something. I'm not sure.

For 106/i it's hard to recommend anyone faster than Gulda (9:27), Goodyear if you can tolerate bad sound. Gulda plays slower on average but still does come up to the Schnabel tempo on occasions. A similar recommendation can be made for Michaël Lévinas (9:30)—who unlike Gulda establishes the tempo at the beginning, but then slows down more significantly. Rosen 1965 (10:17) is exemplary in how to play the Hammerklavier more slowly while still conveying the character of the music. Others in the 9:50-10:00 range are also recommendable e.g. PBS (on a Graf 1824), Michael Leslie (bad sound again) or Mélodie Zhao. I generally don't see a good reason to listen to 106/is exceeding 10:45 ish—doesn't seem like there's much anyone can bring to the slow Hammerklavier that hasn't already been brought by Pollini or Gilels.

There's a Gieseking recital from 1949 on Music & Arts and now a complete cycle being assembled—not sure if those are two different versions. I wouldn't recommend either one by the way.

One fast one (in i) which I stumbled across on spotify and which is nice and playful is by Eugene Albulescu. It's on spotify. I'm strating to come round to the view that what's needed in this very problematic music  is moving forward, momentum, unstoppableness and light, witty. Fast may be the only way to do it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on December 19, 2014, 10:15:16 PM
Thanks for the tip. Have been listening to Albulescu.  Loving it. Makes me ponder, once again, why some people have big careers and others dwell in obscurity. It may well be a matter of choice. But it never seems to have much to do with talent.
P.S.  Shouldn't have jumped the gun with geniusas.  He doesn't play the repeat.  Very disappointed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 20, 2014, 03:22:43 PM
Spotted this at the checkout while buying some stuff from their Christmas sale:

(http://images.marbecks.co.nz/_gallery/detail/10536/10536315-1.jpg)
http://www.marbecks.co.nz/detail/536315/Complete-Piano-Sonatas-14-CDs-plus-Book-The

Houstoun's Beethoven reCycle received a fair amount of hype around Auckland last year, though I didn't attend any of the concerts. These are new recordings, not reissues of the Trust Records cycle. Maybe some of our insane collectors will be interested.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 21, 2014, 12:25:43 AM
I've heard the Trust cycle and it is excellent. I wonder what new insights Houstoun will have to offer. 14 CDs for an LvB cycle is OTT. Is there anywhere we can sample these recordings?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 21, 2014, 12:36:20 AM
Rattle has put the first two CDs (op. 10/3, 27/1, 14/1, 26 and 53) up on Qobuz. I'm not seeing anything on Spotify or NML yet, though the label does distribute to both.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 21, 2014, 07:30:01 AM
I'd still like the Trust cycle, but it is dear right now, so this new one looks mighty tempting and acceptably priced.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 22, 2014, 08:33:32 AM
Another impressive one from Levy, op28. This time he shows a comedic playful side, quite surprising and very appropriate IMO. Starts at about 25 minutes on this youtube

http://www.youtube.com/v/5jhtuFb56Vo

Very erotic pic of Leda and the swan there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on December 30, 2014, 09:59:39 PM

I notice that the new Houston set (or at least a number of them) can be downloaded for about $6 US each from this site.  The PDF program notes (very comprehensive) are free

http://vup.victoria.ac.nz/beethoven-piano-sonatas-24bit-flac-programme-2/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on December 30, 2014, 10:56:41 PM

Michael Houstoun interviewed over several hours about the beethoven sonatas

http://www.radionz.co.nz/concert/programmes/beethovenrecycle
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 01, 2015, 01:05:37 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61e%2BIzxtqgL._SX425_.jpg)


Coming next month.  I'm not a fan of Pienaar's Mozart, but I do think I will be getting this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 08, 2015, 04:35:20 PM
(http://www.nbr.co.nz/sites/default/files/styles/article_full_300w/public/story_imgs/houston.jpg?itok=4nQi4Id8)



Kiwis know how to do Beethoven.  My copy of Michael Houstoun's new cycle arrived today, and the packaging and presentation is of the super-deluxe variety.  The book is about 190 pages, includes a summary of each sonata, a lengthy biography of the pianist, and some lavish photos.  The text is English only, so it appears to be meant for the home market only.  The discs are stored in a flipbook style package.  I did a quick sound check of disc one, which opens with 10/3.  Sound and playing are none too shabby.  I look forward to listening a bit more.  I'm thinking of waiting until Pienaar's cycle is released and doing an A/B, though I doubt I can wait that long.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on January 09, 2015, 12:29:12 PM
I'm also wondering how it compares with his previous cycle which is available for a listen on NML.

I'll  be very interested to hear your thoughts Todd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 09, 2015, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Holden on January 09, 2015, 12:29:12 PM
I'm also wondering how it compares with his previous cycle which is available for a listen on NML.

I'll  be very interested to hear your thoughts Todd.



I'll be able to A/B the last five sonatas between both sets since I downloaded the first set a few years ago, but it will take a bit of time.  I've got a to-listen to pile that is rather large, though, of course, LvB sonatas always, or at least usually, jump to the head of the pack.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on January 09, 2015, 09:12:27 PM
Is the Houstoun set really 14 CDs? Must be some kind of record for most discs in a complete set.....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2015, 06:12:28 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on January 09, 2015, 09:12:27 PM
Is the Houstoun set really 14 CDs? Must be some kind of record for most discs in a complete set.....


Yes.  The discs are basically LP length - 45ish minutes, give or take a few minutes - with each of the seven recitals split into to two discs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 10, 2015, 01:47:08 PM
I've been listening to vol 2 of the Complete Beethoven Sonatas by a pianist called Younhwa Lee which I pulled down off the net.  I would, in fact, love to purchase the complete set, because her playing has tonnes of personality.  However, the only thing I've been able to find out about her is that she is a professor of piano at Chung Ang University in Korea.  No indications where the complete set can be purchased, if it is available.  Anyone know anything more. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on January 11, 2015, 10:07:33 AM
Quote from: Fred on January 10, 2015, 01:47:08 PM
I've been listening to vol 2 of the Complete Beethoven Sonatas by a pianist called Younhwa Lee which I pulled down off the net.  I would, in fact, love to purchase the complete set, because her playing has tonnes of personality.  However, the only thing I've been able to find out about her is that she is a professor of piano at Chung Ang University in Korea.  No indications where the complete set can be purchased, if it is available.  Anyone know anything more.

Perhaps you could ask her

Jlee@siu.edu
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 11, 2015, 10:14:44 AM
Quote from: Fred on January 10, 2015, 01:47:08 PMAnyone know anything more.



I wish I did.  Volume 2 has half the sonatas, implying that volume 1 has the other half.  Could be a heretofore unknown cycle. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 11, 2015, 08:42:12 PM
Thank you Holden.  But she might not be pleased with the circumstances in which I have, ahem, obtained Vol 2.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on January 13, 2015, 02:39:03 AM
Quote from: Fred on January 11, 2015, 08:42:12 PM
Thank you Holden.  But she might not be pleased with the circumstances in which I have, ahem, obtained Vol 2.

  I'll bet she would be delighted to have been noticed and appreciated! Just don't forget to ask where the music can be purchased. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 13, 2015, 04:28:22 AM
I had a professor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Jardine) who told us, "I'm so glad my books are online for free now! Finally, people will read them!" She'd been lobbying years for her publishers to let her do it herself.

Anyway, just say that you "acquired" the recordings, without saying how. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 13, 2015, 02:04:10 PM
Thank you all for your advice.  Reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon I read in which a fan goes up to a musician and says: "I'm a big fan, I've downloaded all of your stuff".  I will give it a go.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mateus on January 14, 2015, 07:11:10 AM
I bought Younwha Lee's set at http://www.gmarket.co.kr/. You have to search for her name in Korean (이연화), though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 14, 2015, 06:26:51 PM
At long last, this Saturday my copy of Eric Heidsieck's 32 arrived from Berkshire Record Outlet. New and in the shrink wrap, 19 years after it was printed. So far I've listened to 12, 13, and 15, and while I haven't heard any of the eccentricities and strong-minded ideas Heidsieck is famous around here for, everything I have heard has been immaculate, deeply intelligent, and oh-so satisfying.

EDIT: Never mind about the "no eccentricities," I just got to the Pastoral sonata's scherzo. Zoinks  ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 14, 2015, 06:47:41 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81wAylpF9fL._SX425_.jpg)



Pollini's last disc in his cycle.  The watchword is speed.  Unyielding, relentless speed.  He plays faster than even Gulda (Amadeo, natch) most of the time.  He shaves off close to a minute in the slow movement of 31/2 compared to his earlier recording.  (Overall, I prefer the earlier recording a bit.)  Even the Op 49 sonatas are taken fast.  The sound is too distant and unclear for my tastes.  Yet.  Yet, this is a successful disc.  Pollini is deadly serious, even when he plays the light-hearted outer movements of 31/1.  But unlike the early sonatas - especially Op 7, which is basically crushed under Pollini's awesome fingers - this music can take it.  The fast movements are exhilarating at times.  These are not the best Op 31 sonatas out there, or even in the top five (or ten?) for me, but they do serve to show that while other pianists search for unique individual insights and so on, Pollini will have none of such musical tomfoolery, and instead sits down to play serious music seriously.  Pollini does let up a bit with the Op 49 sonatas, but these are not dainty little gems.  They are heavy-duty light Beethoven pieces.  A good, solid end to a cycle that peaked impossibly high with the late sonatas, and had some other exceptional high points (eg, the live Waldstein).  But now what is left for Mr Pollini?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 14, 2015, 06:49:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 14, 2015, 06:26:51 PM
At long last, this Saturday my copy of Eric Heidsieck's 32 arrived from Berkshire Record Outlet. New and in the shrink wrap, 19 years after it was printed. So far I've listened to 12, 13, and 15, and while I haven't heard any of the eccentricities and strong-minded ideas Heidsieck is famous around here for, everything I have heard has been immaculate, deeply intelligent, and oh-so satisfying.

EDIT: Never mind about the "no eccentricities," I just got to the Pastoral sonata's scherzo. Zoinks  ???

Indeed! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbJMTvzArA
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on January 14, 2015, 09:31:07 PM
Quote from: George on January 14, 2015, 06:49:44 PM
Indeed! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbJMTvzArA

???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 18, 2015, 01:24:32 AM
MATEUS - Many many thanks.  Will order.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mateus on January 19, 2015, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: Fred on January 18, 2015, 01:24:32 AM
MATEUS - Many many thanks.  Will order.

You are welcome. It's good that this set is not as expensive as most other Asian sets...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 21, 2015, 04:24:49 PM
TODD - I know it's off topic (apologies), but you've made reference to Pietro Di Maria's chopin elsewhere on this forum.   The complete box set is now available on amazon UK for a steal.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Pietro-Maria/dp/B00N29UQZA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421889769&sr=8-1&keywords=PIETRO+MARIA+CHOPIN
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 21, 2015, 04:59:25 PM
Quote from: Fred on January 21, 2015, 04:24:49 PM
TODD - I know it's off topic (apologies), but you've made reference to Pietro Di Maria's chopin elsewhere on this forum.   The complete box set is now available on amazon UK for a steal.



It's even cheaper at Amazon Italy.  I have about half the discs.  I'm pondering.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on January 22, 2015, 05:09:48 PM
Why would it be of interest ? I've never heard of/read about him. Tod, please explain !
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 24, 2015, 12:17:44 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 9, 2014 - onward

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Updated with Melodie Zhao.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 24, 2015, 01:58:39 PM
(http://toolmusic.co.kr/bbs/data/71/크기변환_이연화_베토벤VOL5.JPG)



My copy of Younwha Lee's LvB cycle arrived from Korea today.  G Market showed up as eBay on my Visa - I guess the latter bought the former in 2009.  (Too much competition, perhaps?)  Whoever sent me the discs overdid it on the packaging, stuffing one small box in a large box, so the set arrived in perfect shape.  The two boxes are large clamshell types, each containing five single discs in old-fashioned cases.  Almost all notes are in Korean, but the brief English bio states that Ms Lee studied at the University of Washington and Juilliard, and counts Ania Dorfman among her teachers.  I thought the recordings would be new, or at least new-ish, but it turns out that Ms Lee started recording the cycle in 1994.  The last year included in volume two lists 1999, but the last few discs don't include dates.  Volume one was recorded in Japan, and volume two was recorded in Australia.  The first disc is a standard named sonata affair - 31/2, 53, 57 - and then from there it is mixed.  A quick spot check revealed good sound and playing, but 45 seconds total from six movements does not indicate much.  Once I wrap up Houstoun's new cycle, I'm on to this, maybe as an A/B with Pienaar.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on January 24, 2015, 03:11:43 PM
Todd, be interested in your comments on the Houstoun set, which I have ordered from Presto. His interviews about the sonatas, kindly posted by a link by Fred, are very interesting and I look forward to hearing his take on Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 03:38:32 AM
Dear Todd,

thanks much for the information re: Younwha Lee and the note that Houstuon has a new cycle. It just never stops!


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 9, 2014 - onward

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Updated with Daniel-Ben Pienaar & Melodie Zhao.

***

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 8, 2010 - 2013

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Updated with Michael Houstoun II.


***

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 5, 1996 - 1999

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_11.html)

Updated with Younwha Lee .



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 04:13:20 AM
I wonder what the P&L looks like for some of these compete Beethoven sets, maybe you don't need to sell many to break even. There can't be many people who actually buy them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 04:46:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 04:13:20 AM
I wonder what the P&L looks like for some of these compete Beethoven sets, maybe you don't need to sell many to break even. There can't be many people who actually buy them.

That depends on how you account for subsidies and P & L for whom. Label or artist.

If, for example, they are recorded for broadcast and the artist or label gets the rights to issue them for little or nothing (and you don't calculate the radio station's investment), the cost is down considerably... the rest of which is probably covered by the artist to some degree, if not entirely. Most record labels operate on some version of that principle by now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 05:50:32 AM
And is that the model with many of these recordings?  The cost of production effectively passed on to a radio station, who presumably recover their expenses with advertising or state subsidies.

Presumably manufacturing and distribution costs are peanuts these days. And I suppose publicity costs are kept at a minimum for these lesser pianists. Still, I know how things can mount up and you have to ask, what's the point? Especially when the artistic value is not so important. Sounds like a lot of effort for not much return to me.

Do you have a Profit and Loss account for a Beethoven set you can let us see?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 05:50:32 AM
And is that the model with many of these recordings?  The cost of production effectively passed on to a radio station, who presumably recover their expenses with advertising or state subsidies.

Presumably manufacturing and distribution costs are peanuts these days. And I suppose publicity costs are kept at a minimum for these lesser pianists. Still, I know how things can mount up and you have to ask, what's the point? Especially when the artistic value is not so important. Sounds like a lot of effort for not much return to me.

Do you have a Profit and Loss account for a Beethoven set you can let us see?

I don't, as you would have define P&L very specifically, before getting at it. Do you mean the labels or the artists?

Let's just say: The labels won't issue it, if they can't break even. [Break even before they start selling any copies, ideally.]
And the artists wouldn't finance it (and many do, I reckon, especially where they don't have the benefit of getting recording cost (substantial even for taped live performances) subsidized by a radio station or concert venue, if they didn't think it would make a decent enough business card. (Which is essentially what it is... [with hints of vanity, perhaps]. As HJ Lim shows us: you can still make a PR splash with a complete recording; I'm sure other pianists hope for the same. It's one way to garner reviews, for starters.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 25, 2015, 06:56:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 04:13:20 AM
I wonder what the P&L looks like for some of these compete Beethoven sets, maybe you don't need to sell many to break even. There can't be many people who actually buy them.




Some cycles may not necessarily be meant to make a profit.  Houstoun's new cycle was at least partly funded by the Wallace Arts Trust, and his first one was at least partly funded by the Morrison Music Trust.  I've seen various national Arts councils/ministries/etc mentioned in the notes for several esoteric cycles.  Ikuyo Nakamichi's cycle appears to have been funded by Union Tool Company.  Rita Bouboulidi's cycle appears to be a privately funded affair.  HJ Lim is repeatedly described as a Yamaha exclusive artist, so it would not be surprising if Yamaha threw in a few bucks.  I can't imagine these projects are significantly profitable for years, or even decades, if at all.  These projects do have reputational value, too, which may or may not play into the decision to record them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 07:48:45 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 25, 2015, 06:56:46 AM



Some cycles may not necessarily be meant to make a profit.  Houstoun's new cycle was at least partly funded by the Wallace Arts Trust, and his first one was at least partly funded by the Morrison Music Trust.  I've seen various national Arts councils/ministries/etc mentioned in the notes for several esoteric cycles.  Ikuyo Nakamichi's cycle appears to have been funded by Union Tool Company.  Rita Bouboulidi's cycle appears to be a privately funded affair.  HJ Lim is repeatedly described as a Yamaha exclusive artist, so it would not be surprising if Yamaha threw in a few bucks.  I can't imagine these projects are significantly profitable for years, or even decades, if at all.  These projects do have reputational value, too, which may or may not play into the decision to record them.

State funding for recordings of very mainstream classical music is an intersting phenomenon I hadn't thought about before. It would also be interesting to know the logic the Union Tool Company applied.

Oh and I meant the label's P and L, Jens. I do hope that vanity publishing isn't a major force. I want to hear the artists who are doing interesting things, not the rich kids who can afford to take a punt on a release.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 25, 2015, 08:18:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 07:48:45 AMIt would also be interesting to know the logic the Union Tool Company applied.



I've tried to figure that one out.  It would be easier if I read Japanese, I suppose.  Whatever the relationship, it is a long term one.  Ms Nakamichi's website links to Union Tool, and Union Tool's website links to Ms Nakamichi's.  The company's motto, or at least one motto, is For Humanity, For the Future.  Could be that the company adheres to expansive views of good governance and good corporate citizenship.  But then, for all I know, Ms Nakamichi could be the wife, daughter, or relative of a mucky muck at the company.  The relationship also contributed to her very fine Mozart sonata cycle, so whatever the relationship is, it has made my ears happy.

Oh, and I am pretty sure that most prominent, professional pianists come from privileged backgrounds.  Not necessarily Eric Heidsieck levels of privilege, but relatively few seem to come from slums or even poorly educated, lower-middle class homes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 07:48:45 AM
State funding for recordings of very mainstream classical music is an intersting phenomenon I hadn't thought about before. It would also be interesting to know the logic the Union Tool Company applied.

Oh and I meant the label's P and L, Jens. I do hope that vanity publishing isn't a major force. I want to hear the artists who are doing interesting things, not the rich kids who can afford to take a punt on a release.

Vanity publishing is THE major force! If you want to call it that. But even then, labels won't just take anyone or anything by them. But the burden of financing has definitely shifted.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2015, 10:23:23 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 12:03:37 PM
Vanity publishing is THE major force! If you want to call it that. But even then, labels won't just take anyone or anything by them. But the burden of financing has definitely shifted.

It's a bit like hiring the Wigmore Hall. Basically anyone can get it if they're a competent musician and they pay. Thanks for this discussion both of you, it has helped me to understand something about what recordings are.

One really attractive thing about early music is that there's still a lot of scholar musicians making records, that raises the bar a notch I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on January 30, 2015, 03:06:27 AM
The Willems cycle is on its way to me (actually to a friend's house, as I've been out of town for the recent general elections). As far as I could surmise from (extensive) Spotify sampling/listening, his is a non-radical approach with nevertheless quite a bit of character, played on a Stuart piano (the sound of which I've liked ever since acquiring a couple of Tall Poppies recordings of David Stanhope back in the day).

This will be cycle No.22 for me, including Gilels (the others presently being Schnabel, Kempff I/mono, Kempff II/stereo, Arrau I, Backhaus II, Gulda II/Amadeo, Badura-Skoda I/Gramola, Badura-Skoda II/Astrée, Brendel III, A.Fischer, Kovacevich, Barenboim III/DVD, Schiff, Paul Lewis, Brautigam, Lortie, Korstick, Guy, Goodyear, Pollini).*

Among recent ongoing projects, the first Bavouzet issue was so disappointing I did not bother getting vol.2 (although I am curious about his eventual late sonatas vol.3), Angela Hewitt's first three issues were OK, the fourth being somewhat less satisfying, I'm not impressed by Biss so far, Jumppanen's first issue was very good and can't wait for the rest.

I've also pre-ordered Pienaar's cycle, although I'm rather apprehensive of the "blind" investment (haven't managed to find any samples yet). Are there any?




*As my filing system sucks, I've been able to enumerate thanks to Jens's comprehensive survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html).


Edit: corrected the number.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2015, 11:59:26 AM
I just got -- and listened to -- the latest volume of Jonathan Biss. (No.4) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SND3OAY/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00SND3OAY&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkId=TILPXHBYFSOA74YZ)

It's the one that impressed me most, actually... but it's no longer on Onyx but on his own label, imaginatively named: "Jonathan Biss Records". Onyx no longer lists him as an artist on their website, either... but the release had still been planned, at one point, to come out on Onyx.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2015, 12:42:44 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 12:03:37 PM
Vanity publishing is THE major force! If you want to call it that. But even then, labels won't just take anyone or anything by them. But the burden of financing has definitely shifted.

I can see it now: classical  musicians wearing advertising patches on their tuxedos like NASCAR drivers!   8)

Or:

The Microsoft Seattle Symphony!  Bank of America's New York Philharmonic!

Texaco used to sponsor the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts: the company ended its support 12 years ago with this explanation.

Quote
"Patricia E. Yarrington, ChevronTexaco's vice president for public and government affairs, said in a statement, ''As our business has evolved, we believe it is important to focus more of our resources directly with the countries and markets where we do business.''

Toll Brothers, a house-construction company, is a sponsor now. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 31, 2015, 12:29:31 PM
After completing the Pollini and Houstoun cycles, I cobbled together a rough list of how I would rank the various cycles I've heard.  I hasten to point out that almost every cycle has at least a few redeeming qualities and a few sonatas that really shine. 



Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Second Tier (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yusuke Kikuchi

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ichiro Nodaira (may be second tier stuff – Op 31 is so freakin' good . . .)
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Peter Rösel
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat



Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jeno Jando
John Lill
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama



Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on January 31, 2015, 01:40:17 PM
You totally just pulled a Todd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I only have one twofer with recordings of famous sonatas from the STEREO set, but I never got what's so special about Backhaus. (Dito with Kempff, but here I have listened to even less material). Backhaus is dry as dust to my ears, Kempff not powerful enough in pieces that demand it and both seem kind of "shallow" in slow movements (compared to e.g. Gilels, Arrau, Schnabel etc.) If I want fast, energetic and emotionally somewhat neutral, I go for Gulda/Amadeo who is hard to beat in this department. If I want "deep" I go for Gilels or Arrau, maybe Serkin, some Richter and Edwin Fischer. With the two Wilhelms I seem to find neither and I am not quite sure what I am missing.

I could also need some pointers re Lucchesini and Heidsieck both of which I acquired at some stage because of high praise but while good I didn't find them all that special (except that Heidsieck can be rather excentric, someone recently mentioned the absurdly slow scherzo from op.28 (or was it another one?)).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 01:20:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I only have one twofer with recordings of famous sonatas from the STEREO set, but I never got what's so special about Backhaus. (Dito with Kempff, but here I have listened to even less material). Backhaus is dry as dust to my ears, Kempff not powerful enough in pieces that demand it and both seem kind of "shallow" in slow movements (compared to e.g. Gilels, Arrau, Schnabel etc.) If I want fast, energetic and emotionally somewhat neutral, I go for Gulda/Amadeo who is hard to beat in this department. If I want "deep" I go for Gilels or Arrau, maybe Serkin, some Richter and Edwin Fischer. With the two Wilhelms I seem to find neither and I am not quite sure what I am missing.

I could also need some pointers re Lucchesini and Heidsieck both of which I acquired at some stage because of high praise but while good I didn't find them all that special (except that Heidsieck can be rather excentric, someone recently mentioned the absurdly slow scherzo from op.28 (or was it another one?)).

Do you think that Backhaus is slow in the slow movement of op 106? Or that Kempff is shallow in op 2/2? You've got to get down to specifics, you know. Wthether the style is distinctive enough, or there are enough successes, to justify the high praise is a difficult question, I tend to think that Todd's right to rate Backhaus and Kempff but wrong to rate Gulda.

Someone like Eric Heidsieck,-- well it's too personal. If you like the rubato, then well and good. But it's no more absurd ,as far as I can see, than Gilels's DG style. I know it's tempting to dismiss Heidieck as a buffoon but that's a bit unfair I think.  I imagine, from the little I've heard, it's similar for Russell Sherman. An example of absurd may be Ugorski in Op 111/ii.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 01:40:32 AM
As I said, I have Backhaus only with STEREO "famous sonatas" like op.13, 27/2, 53, 57 etc. no op.106. I find him rather "dry", i.e. emotionally uninvolved, no big contrasts in sound, tempi (he is rather fast in slow movements), mood etc. in all of them, although I cannot be more specific right now.
Of Kempff's I had opp.31/2, 106, 111 (all stereo) many years ago, but I got rid of them due to "lack of power". Of the mono set I have one disc with op.27 and others, I do not remember enough, only that it seemed somewhat small-scale as well.

With Gilels I had problems when I first got the set almost 20 years ago and did not even know some of the earlier sonatas. I still think he is too slow and serious in some (especially early ones, the first movement of op.10/1 is absurdly slow), but he has tremendous power, clarity and brings out voice/rhythm details, some harmonic things and also the "long line" (despite some very slow tempi) extraordinarily well. Some of the live recordings available on Brilliant are even better than the DG studio (somewhat faster and more spontaneous). In any case, for Gilels (and also Arrau, although I only got his set last year and do not know it that well) I can understand the appeal, even in cases when I do not share all of the enthusiasm.

But in what I have heard with Kempff and Backhaus their qualities apparently are too subtle for me, but I will look out for a chance to hear more of their mono recordings; it is possible that I did not hear their best stuff.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 01, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 01:40:32 AM
As I said, I have Backhaus only with STEREO "famous sonatas" like op.13, 27/2, 53, 57 etc. no op.106. I find him rather "dry", i.e. emotionally uninvolved, no big contrasts in sound, tempi (he is rather fast in slow movements), mood etc. in all of them...

But in what I have heard with Kempff and Backhaus their qualities apparently are too subtle for me, but I will look out for a chance to hear more of their mono recordings; it is possible that I did not hear their best stuff.

With Backhaus, especially, but then again also Kempff, it's important to note that with the Stereo cycle you get OLD Backhaus, the artist... and with the Mono cycle you get the very nearly as OLD Backhaus, the artist. The early stuff of his career is fascinating, to the extent it survives, and the sound is horribly restrained so as to barely make it worthwhile listening to.

Also: If you don't like Backhaus Stereo, I would be quite surprised if you found Backhaus Mono a grand improvement. It's taken a while for me to finally get my hands on the latter set (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html) and I have certainly enjoyed it, because I think the world of Backhaus' Beethoven. But even as I have  not listened in depth or side-by-side, I find myself not responding notably different (and certainly not notably more positive, if that were possible) to it. (I do see a point for the Kempff mono cycle being appreciated more than the stereo-remake, but by and large I think it's part of a "one set is more rare and therefore really, actually better" syndrome that's widely found throughout classical music.) In any case, I think you're on the right track about the "subtle qualities". Backhaus for me never impresses with a moment, a note, even a movement. He does nothing that makes me go: Whahhhhuuuu!?! With Backhaus, I don't see the trees for all the forest. It's unfussy, unfazed understatement throughout and with me, it yields big-time. If I had to keep one set of LvB Sonatas, it would probably, perhaps be stereo-Backhaus.

Beethoven Piano Sonata Cycle Survey, Part 1 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 01, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
With Backhaus, especially, but then again also Kempff, it's important to note that with the Stereo cycle you get OLD Backhaus, the artist... and with the Mono cycle you get the very nearly as OLD Backhaus, the artist. The early stuff of his career is fascinating, to the extent it survives, and the sound is horribly restrained so as to barely make it worthwhile listening to.

Also: If you don't like Backhaus Stereo, I would be quite surprised if you found Backhaus Mono a grand improvement. It's taken a while for me to finally get my hands on the latter set (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html) and I have certainly enjoyed it, because I think the world of Backhaus' Beethoven. But even as I have  not listened in depth or side-by-side, I find myself not responding notably different (and certainly not notably more positive, if that were possible) to it. (I do see a point for the Kempff mono cycle being appreciated more than the stereo-remake, but by and large I think it's part of a "one set is more rare and therefore really, actually better" syndrome that's widely found throughout classical music.) In any case, I think you're on the right track about the "subtle qualities". Backhaus for me never impresses with a moment, a note, even a movement. He does nothing that makes me go: Whahhhhuuuu!?! With Backhaus, I don't see the trees for all the forest. It's unfussy, unfazed understatement throughout and with me, it yields big-time. If I had to keep one set of LvB Sonatas, it would probably, perhaps be stereo-Backhaus.

Beethoven Piano Sonata Cycle Survey, Part 1 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

First, Jens, he recorded the Mono Beethoven when he was 65 to 70 I think. I don't believe he went gaga or feeble. Is there a loss of technque?  I don't know, I don't much care about technique. What he has is good enough for me.

Second, I think there are plenty of moments where he makes me go "wow" - op 106/iii is one of them. But maybe more importantly, so is op 109 through op 111. The astonishing thing about the last three sonatas is that anyone would play them in such a meat and potatoes, offhand, apparently derisory way. I find them the most valuable thing about the set, because the vision is so unique. I don't feel confident enough to say that he was misconceived.

It would be interesting to get to the bottom of the differences between the two cycles - anyone fancy exploring it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on February 01, 2015, 04:54:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
First, Jens, he recorded the Mono Beethoven when he was 65 to 70 I think. I don't believe he went gaga or feeble. Is there a loss of technque?  I don't know, I don't much care about technique. What he has is good enough for me.

Second, I think there are plenty of moments where he makes me go "wow" - op 106/iii is one of them. But maybe more importantly, so is op 109 through op 111. The astonishing thing about the last three sonatas is that anyone would play them in such a meat and potatoes, offhand, apparently derisory way. I find them the most valuable thing about the set, because the vision is so unique. I don't feel confident enough to say that he was misconceived.

I agree in general, but never sensed that last part at all.

I got the Backhaus recording of those sonatas when it was first issued, when I was an adolescent.  I thought then that those performances brought forth an otherworldly atmosphere, and I still think that.  The stereo technology is good, not the best, but still good enough that I can ignore tape hiss and listen to exquisite versions of these and all the sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 05:05:48 AM
The problem is that only the stereo Backhaus is available (only complete and not cheap) and the only separately available stuff is the twofer I already have which has no late sonatas but the 7 most famous "named" ones (opp. 13,27/2,28, 31/2, 53,57,81a) and it seems that Decca/Universal re-issued that very same twofer three or more times since the 90s or late 80s with different covers).
So while I would be interested in hearing the late Beethoven with Backhaus, I am not prepared to pay big money or order from Japan. I am also quite content with what I have (and haven't even really listened properly to some of Arrau or Heidsieck and some other stuff in my shelves). But I'll re-check Backhaus in the stereo "name" sonatas if my impressions above hold up.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 05:15:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 05:05:48 AM
The problem is that only the stereo Backhaus is available (only complete and not cheap) and the only separately available stuff is the twofer I already have which has no late sonatas but the 7 most famous "named" ones (opp. 13,27/2,28, 31/2, 53,57,81a) and it seems that Decca/Universal re-issued that very same twofer three or more times since the 90s or late 80s with different covers).
So while I would be interested in hearing the late Beethoven with Backhaus, I am not prepared to pay big money or order from Japan. I am also quite content with what I have (and haven't even really listened properly to some of Arrau or Heidsieck and some other stuff in my shelves). But I'll re-check Backhaus in the stereo "name" sonatas if my impressions above hold up.

If it's really OOP I'll put the mono set on symphonyshare. Surely the late sonatas are on youtube?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 01, 2015, 05:26:06 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I could also need some pointers re Lucchesini and Heidsieck both of which I acquired at some stage because of high praise but while good I didn't find them all that special (except that Heidsieck can be rather excentric, someone recently mentioned the absurdly slow scherzo from op.28 (or was it another one?)).
Yes, that was me and that was the absurdly slow scherzo we talked about. Most of the Heidsieck I've heard so far (admittedly only possessing the set for 1-2 weeks) has been consistent, smart, and just "done right", but with occasional strange twists.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 01, 2015, 05:40:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 05:05:48 AM
The problem is that only the stereo Backhaus is available (only complete and not cheap) and the only separately available stuff is the twofer I already have which has no late sonatas but the 7 most famous "named" ones (opp. 13,27/2,28, 31/2, 53,57,81a) and it seems that Decca/Universal re-issued that very same twofer three or more times since the 90s or late 80s with different covers).
So while I would be interested in hearing the late Beethoven with Backhaus, I am not prepared to pay big money or order from Japan. I am also quite content with what I have (and haven't even really listened properly to some of Arrau or Heidsieck and some other stuff in my shelves). But I'll re-check Backhaus in the stereo "name" sonatas if my impressions above hold up.

I feel compelled to share a few things. First, the stereo twofer did not win me over, either. It was only after listening through the entire stereo set a few times that I began to appreciate Backhaus's unique way with these works. I feel that Backhaus is one of those artists where you have to come to him. Second, the stereo sound on the Original Masters set is incredible, some of the best recorded piano performances in my collection. Third, the cost of the stereo set is a fraction of the price of the mono set. It can be had for only $36 from amazon third party sellers. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000E0LB7C/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1422801549&sr=8-1&keywords=Backhaus+Beethoven+Sonatas) Finally while the mono performances are a bit better, the interpretations are very much the same.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 01, 2015, 05:41:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
First, Jens, he recorded the Mono Beethoven when he was 65 to 70 I think. I don't believe he went gaga or feeble. Is there a loss of technque?  I don't know, I don't much care about technique. What he has is good enough for me.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 05:15:14 AM
If it's really OOP I'll put the mono set on symphonyshare. Surely the late sonatas are on youtube?


We might misunderstand each other here. My point was none of the above except: Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that we get an appreciable difference in vision from Backhaus mono vs. stereo... it's both 'autumnal Backhaus', recorded once when he was old and once when he was yet a bit older. It's not like the two visions of a young artist vs. seasoned veteran.

In fact, I made the remark only to underpin my subsequent point of not rating the very hard to get (but not out of print (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005FKXU/nectarandambr-20), to answer your other question) as something infinitely superior to the "later" stereo set. They were recorded at practically the same stage of his career. And no, no loss of technique that I can detect at all, from mono to stereo.

Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 05:05:48 AM
The problem is that only the stereo Backhaus is available (only complete and not cheap)

Well, cheap is a subjective matter, but the stereo cycle can be had for less than $40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E0LB7C/goodmusicguide-20)... which doesn't strike me as a bad deal at all. Depending on where you are, you can look into the earlier edition or the Italian edition (clunky jewel cases) and see if it's cheaper there. All the relevant links on the Beethoven Survey site (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html), FYI. It can also be had for about 37 Euros in Germany, via Amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E0LB7C/goodmusicguideUK-21). 29 Euros for the earlier, jewel-disc edition from German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IP3T/goodmusicguide-21) (used).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 07:56:06 AM
Thanks for your comments. I am in Germany, the regular amazon.de price is EUR 50 (which is 20 more than the mono Kempff), there are used/marketplace offers around 30 which is o.k. I guess. My reluctance is not mainly because of the price, but because I didn't much care for the sonatas I heard so far on above-mentioned twofer.

From Todd's list I have Gulda/Amadeo, Schnabel, Gilels/DG (+ a bunch live on Brilliant), Heidsieck, Lucchesini, Arrau (60s), most of Serkin's, some of Richter's, 2 discs of Annie Fischer's hungaroton and all of her older EMI Introuvables, 5 of Gelber's on Denon, 5 of Brautigam's, all of Gould's, all the Kovacevich on Philips and 2-3 of his EMI, 2-3 with Edwin Fischer, and the late sonatas with Pollini, Rosen, Levit, Peter Serkin. And a bunch more of single discs with Schiff, Korstick, Kocsis, a few more in pianist's boxes (like the few played by Rubinstein, Cziffra) etc.

I don't really feel like needing more. But with Kempff and especially Backhaus being perennial recommendations I sometimes wonder if I am missing something.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on February 01, 2015, 09:14:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 07:56:06 AM
Thanks for your comments. I am in Germany, the regular amazon.de price is EUR 50 (which is 20 more than the mono Kempff), there are used/marketplace offers around 30 which is o.k. I guess. My reluctance is not mainly because of the price, but because I didn't much care for the sonatas I heard so far on above-mentioned twofer.

From Todd's list I have Gulda/Amadeo, Schnabel, Gilels/DG (+ a bunch live on Brilliant), Heidsieck, Lucchesini, Arrau (60s), most of Serkin's, some of Richter's, 2 discs of Annie Fischer's hungaroton and all of her older EMI Introuvables, 5 of Gelber's on Denon, 5 of Brautigam's, all of Gould's, all the Kovacevich on Philips and 2-3 of his EMI, 2-3 with Edwin Fischer, and the late sonatas with Pollini, Rosen, Levit, Peter Serkin. And a bunch more of single discs with Schiff, Korstick, Kocsis, a few more in pianist's boxes (like the few played by Rubinstein, Cziffra) etc.

I don't really feel like needing more. But with Kempff and especially Backhaus being perennial recommendations I sometimes wonder if I am missing something.

You definitely don't need more...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 01, 2015, 10:27:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 01:20:40 AM
Someone like Eric Heidsieck,-- well it's too personal. If you like the rubato, then well and good. But it's no more absurd ,as far as I can see, than Gilels's DG style. I know it's tempting to dismiss Heidieck as a buffoon but that's a bit unfair I think.

Is Heidsieck's Beethoven laden with distracting rubato? Is it, mutatis mutandis, Chopinesque? I was considering investigating it at some point but if he's earned a buffoon reputation because of it then it's certainly not for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2015, 10:32:09 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on February 01, 2015, 09:14:07 AM
You definitely don't need more...

What does need have to do with record collecting  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 01, 2015, 10:34:02 AM
Need is a four letter word.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 10:39:28 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 01, 2015, 10:27:10 AM
Is Heidsieck's Beethoven laden with distracting rubato? Is it, mutatis mutandis, Chopinesque? I was considering investigating it at some point but if he's earned a buffoon reputation because of it then it's certainly not for me.

I don't know if he's earned a buffoon reputation, I doubt it, I don't think he has a reputation very much, I chose that word because the word "absurd" was being bandied around. But there is distinctive rubato, whether it's organic, insightful, disturbing, affected, pointless, absurd  . . . well we'd have to look on a case by case basis I suppose.

I don't know about chopinesque.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 01, 2015, 10:40:11 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 01, 2015, 10:27:10 AMI was considering investigating it at some point but if he's earned a buffoon reputation because of it then it's certainly not for me.



Heidsieck's playing does contain of lot of personal rubato, but he is in no way a buffoon.  I believe Artur Rubinstein once commented to the effect that Eric Heidsieck made him reassess rich kid pianists, which he usually dismissed, because Heidsieck's playing was so good.  I also would not characterize Heidsieck's Beethoven as Chopinesque.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jfdrex on February 01, 2015, 10:53:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 01, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
I think the world of Backhaus' Beethoven... Backhaus for me never impresses with a moment, a note, even a movement. He does nothing that makes me go: Whahhhhuuuu!?! With Backhaus, I don't see the trees for all the forest. It's unfussy, unfazed understatement throughout and with me, it yields big-time. If I had to keep one set of LvB Sonatas, it would probably, perhaps be stereo-Backhaus.

Quote from: Cato
I got the Backhaus recording of those sonatas when it was first issued, when I was an adolescent.  I thought then that those performances brought forth an otherworldly atmosphere, and I still think that.  The stereo technology is good, not the best, but still good enough that I can ignore tape hiss and listen to exquisite versions of these and all the sonatas.

I share both sentiments completely, especially Jens's characterization of "unfussy, unfazed understatement throughout" Backhaus's cycles, and Cato's detection of "an otherworldly atmosphere" throughout those performances.

Perhaps it's partly the power of suggestion, informed by an awareness of Backhaus's astonishing longevity as a major pianist, spanning several generations from the late 19th century into the latter half of the 20th century--the thought that someone who saw and heard Brahms play was himself still playing at an extraordinarily high level when I was in my teens just blows me away--but I find an authority, authenticity, and rightness to Backhaus's Beethoven that I haven't heard or felt to the same, consistent extent in any other pianist.  I love many other pianists' Beethoven; and of course there are "better" performances (however one might define "better") of this or that sonata by other pianists, but it's those aforementioned qualities in Backhaus's pianism that keep me returning to his recordings again and again after all these years.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 01, 2015, 06:40:14 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 01, 2015, 10:40:11 AM


Heidsieck's playing does contain of lot of personal rubato, but he is in no way a buffoon.  I believe Artur Rubinstein once commented to the effect that Eric Heidsieck made him reassess rich kid pianists, which he usually dismissed, because Heidsieck's playing was so good.  I also would not characterize Heidsieck's Beethoven as Chopinesque.
Agreed. Heidsieck's rubato is not the swoony, post-2012-Lang-Lang-style "look at me" swan diving. It's tailored to the point.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 11:03:22 PM
As I recall the scherzo in op.28 is not distorted by rubato by Heidsieck, it is just extremely slow. As the piece goes in whole bars that gives an almost static impression, not really scherzo-like.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on February 02, 2015, 05:54:42 AM
I don't have many integral sets (4), a couple of semi-integrals, not even many single sonata discs, but Heidsieck's approach is the one I prefer. It sounds totally right to my ears.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on February 02, 2015, 09:31:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I only have one twofer with recordings of famous sonatas from the STEREO set, but I never got what's so special about Backhaus. (Dito with Kempff, but here I have listened to even less material). Backhaus is dry as dust to my ears, Kempff not powerful enough in pieces that demand it and both seem kind of "shallow" in slow movements (compared to e.g. Gilels, Arrau, Schnabel etc.) If I want fast, energetic and emotionally somewhat neutral, I go for Gulda/Amadeo who is hard to beat in this department. If I want "deep" I go for Gilels or Arrau, maybe Serkin, some Richter and Edwin Fischer. With the two Wilhelms I seem to find neither and I am not quite sure what I am missing.

Kempff: I have the universally praised mono cycle and the "Originals" disc with big-name sonatas in stereo. I wouldn't word it as strongly as you did, but I have not fallen in love with his playing. At least, not yet. Some critic lauded his playing as "gentle," and I can't improve on that as a one-word summary, but for me that's not a compliment. I will buck convention even further by saying I liked that stereo disc better than the mono counterparts.

Backhaus: I have a single disc (17,23-26) from the stereo set, and his entry from "Great Pianists of the Century" which has live performances of several sonatas, not from either cycle. I like both a lot. My notes say his Tempest is a standout. But he is the sort of player that defies descriptions that don't sound like faint praise.

My sense is that you aren't missing anything; you just prefer the styles of other players.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 04, 2015, 02:26:28 AM
Thanks, everyone, for your responses on Heidsieck. It looks like I'll have to listen for myself and see whether his idiosyncratic tendencies are tasteful or tasteless.

Re-listening to Kempff stereo and Schnabel sets while waiting for the Willems to arrive.

I listened to Biss vol.4 on Spotify and was pleasantly surprised. I did not much like his previous installments (too much staccato with an occasional tendency for tintinnabulation), but this sounded impressively right. I'm ordering it as soon as it becomes available in Europe.

Jumppanen's next installment (opp.10/1-3, 53, 54 & 57) is due for release in March:
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/O/D/ODE12682D_1.jpg)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 04, 2015, 04:37:46 AM
I test-drove Penelope Crawford's latest yesterday on Naxos Music Library. It does not have the element of surprise that made the first volume so dazzling, but it does have the element of being really good. Op. 78 might be my favorite performance of that work. I wonder what people will think of the light "no-big-deal" way she plows through some of the toughest thickets of No. 28 (Op. 101).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 04:47:26 AM
The complete Heidsieck cycle is available on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL765841BFCBD7FF9D (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL765841BFCBD7FF9D)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 04, 2015, 05:53:47 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 04, 2015, 02:26:28 AM


I listened to Biss vol.4 on Spotify and was pleasantly surprised. I did not much like his previous installments (too much staccato with an occasional tendency for tintinnabulation), but this sounded impressively right. I'm ordering it as soon as it becomes available in Europe.


Felt exactly the same way. Currently getting to the bottom of why he chose to jump from Onyx to his own label... (something about combining his publishing activities into one house or so...) but meanwhile enjoying that release very much, in an unobtrusive way, if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 04, 2015, 06:34:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 04, 2015, 05:53:47 AMenjoying that release very much, in an unobtrusive way, if you know what I mean.

Good. I hate it when people enjoy releases in an intrusive way by coming over to my house to listen to them!
Actually I'd let you do this if you brought some wine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 04, 2015, 10:11:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 04:47:26 AM
The complete Heidsieck cycle is available on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL765841BFCBD7FF9D (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL765841BFCBD7FF9D)

Thanks a lot, Andrei!  8)

Quote from: jlaurson on February 04, 2015, 05:53:47 AM
Felt exactly the same way. Currently getting to the bottom of why he chose to jump from Onyx to his own label... (something about combining his publishing activities into one house or so...) but meanwhile enjoying that release very much, in an unobtrusive way, if you know what I mean.

Maybe that's the reason why it's available in the US and not in Europe (yet)...

Quote from: Brian on February 04, 2015, 04:37:46 AM
I test-drove Penelope Crawford's latest yesterday on Naxos Music Library.

Another one I'm eagerly awaiting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 12:28:58 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 04, 2015, 10:11:06 AM
Thanks a lot, Andrei!  8)

You´re most welcome, my friend!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 04, 2015, 01:07:29 PM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 04:47:26 AM
The complete Heidsieck cycle is available on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL765841BFCBD7FF9D (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL765841BFCBD7FF9D)

Great find! Thanks.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 01:12:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 04, 2015, 01:07:29 PM
Great find! Thanks.

Sarge

Glad to be of some service.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 06, 2015, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2015, 12:29:31 PM
Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Andre De Groote

Oh. This just got uploaded to NML and I was gonna ask if it was worthwhile. Hmmm...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 06, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 06, 2015, 06:51:08 AM
Oh. This just got uploaded to NML and I was gonna ask if it was worthwhile. Hmmm...


The De Groote isn't really bad, in fact there are things to enjoy, it's just not great or even especially good given all the other options out there. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15357.msg376026.html#msg376026)  YMMV.  You may find it to be the one you've been looking for.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on February 06, 2015, 07:29:36 AM
JPC has samples up for Pienaar's soon to be released cycle:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/the-32-piano-sonatas/hnum/6612554
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on February 07, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
Been listening to Olivier Gardon's 109 - 111 and he strikes me as a very powerful player.  Anyone heard it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 07, 2015, 01:51:28 AM
Quote from: Fred on February 07, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
Been listening to Olivier Gardon's 109 - 111 and he strikes me as a very powerful player.  Anyone heard it.

Is it online?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on February 07, 2015, 06:03:45 PM
I bought it from 7digital.  But there is lower quality at a site called darkmp3
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2015, 09:33:40 PM
Yes I like that recording by Olivier Gardon. I think that there were some outstanding things on the BNL label and it's exciting to explore them. Another very good one is Fabienne Jacquinot's Schumann, and lots of stuff by Bernard Coudurier - Bruhns, Louis Marchand ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 10, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 09, 2014, 08:39:21 AM
.
[asin]B00HPZZOVI[/asin]



Op 2 is bad, very bad.  And it is attributable to Jumppanen's ornamentation in all but the slow movements.  Some ornamentation is cringe-inducing, some ugly, and almost all of it is terrible.  That written, when he plays more directly, he is quite good, recalling his superb playing in the Violin Sonata set with Corey Cerovsek.  His playing in Opp 101 and 106 is also much, much better.  His penchant for the occasional long pause, which also shows up in Op 2, is a mannerism I could live without, but his clarity in the fugues more than offsets quibbles in this regard.  A mixed bag of a set.  I just hope the remaining early sonatas aren't treated similarly to Op 2.  Superb sound.

Jumpannen wrote about this:

QuoteOver time, Beethoven refrained from applying the second repeats, and even among his early sonatas he indicates them only when there are no substantial codas to "have the last word," so to speak. The nature of the repeats also changed. Early on their purpose was more rhetorical; they opened the floor for the performer's creativity through improvised ornamentation. As his style matured, the repeats had more to do with the structural design of the music: certain ideas were reemphasized by the repetition so that the listener would remember and recognize them in development and variation.


I believe Beethoven explicitly said he didn't want repeats ornamented in slow movements, I'm not sure why.

Who do you think treats the op 2 repeats in a satisfying and imaginative way?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 11, 2015, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
Who do you think treats the op 2 repeats in a satisfying and imaginative way?


From earlier in this thread:


2/1 – Fischer, Gulda, Pollini, Perahia, Schnabel

2/2 – Schnabel, Fischer, Gulda, Gulda (Orfeo), Hungerford

2/3 – Perahia, Fischer, Gulda, Backhaus, Brautigam


From newer (to me) recordings, I might add PBS' Astree recordings, FFG, Takacs, and possibly Kikuchi into the mix.  Younwha Lee is also extremely satisfying in a Gulda/Lipkin kinda way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 11, 2015, 11:00:25 PM
Gulda/Amadeo has no repeats of the second parts (development+ recap) in op.2/1 or op.10/2. I do not know about current research but to my knowledge it is highly dubious that in Beethoven's pieces (or even late Haydn and Mozart) the repeats in fast sonata movements are to be embellished.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on February 11, 2015, 11:20:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
Jumpannen wrote about this:

I believe Beethoven explicitly said he didn't want repeats ornamented in slow movements, I'm not sure why.

Who do you think treats the op 2 repeats in a satisfying and imaginative way?

For the record, let me note that I think Jumppanen's embellishments in op.2 are tasteful and accordant to the spirit of the music. In no way did I find them offensive, crude or over-the-top. It helps, of course, that he doesn't just embellish as a gimmick but shapes his interpretations in an effortless and insightful manner.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on February 12, 2015, 12:33:13 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 11, 2015, 11:20:21 PM
For the record, let me note that I think Jumppanen's embellishments in op.2 are tasteful and accordant to the spirit of the music. In no way did I find them offensive, crude or over-the-top. It helps, of course, that he doesn't just embellish as a gimmick but shapes his interpretations in an effortless and insightful manner.

I second that. I find his op.2 particularly successful, actually. Refreshing, coy, witty.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2015, 07:15:36 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 11, 2015, 11:00:25 PM
Gulda/Amadeo has no repeats of the second parts (development+ recap) in op.2/1 or op.10/2. I do not know about current research but to my knowledge it is highly dubious that in Beethoven's pieces (or even late Haydn and Mozart) the repeats in fast sonata movements are to be embellished.

Maybe you could say a little more about this - why do you think it? How do you think you should take the repeats?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 12, 2015, 01:39:12 PM
I have not positive knowledge either way. I am interested in any information about research on "period practice" around 1800.
But I do not have the impression that Beethoven's style expects embellishments added by the player, independently of repeats. I think all embellishments are already written out.
The sonata form repeats are "architectural", not like in many baroque pieces an invitation and obligation for the player to embellish. (In faster baroque pieces like gigues additional embellishments seem also superfluous. Do I want to hear additional trills and stuff in the dead serious fugal Gigue at the end of Bach's e minor partita? Rather not.)
In the baroque era a slow chorale theme as in the slow mvmt of op.2/2 would probably have been embellished after its first statement. In Beethoven's movement this would be a travesty and kill the mood of the piece. The final rondo of this sonata might be a different case.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 12, 2015, 02:56:39 PM
Listening to Op2/1 (i) and all is plain sailing right up until the very end and then, the embellishments. To my knowledge embellishments in the baroque period usually took the form of ornamentation such as mordants, trills, etc. Not a whole extra bar of music as occurs here. This is not what Beethoven wrote and surely not what he intended. Op2/2 (i) is even worse where Jumppanen fills up periods of meaningful silence with extra notes. Those rests (it might be in either hand) were included to be a meaningful part of the structure and tonality of the work. What Jumppanen does doesn't seem purposeful, just filling in the spaces.

It doesn't work for me. I shudder to contemplate what he does to the Hammerklavier at the end of this recital and I don't think I'm brave enough to find out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 12, 2015, 03:08:29 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 12, 2015, 02:56:39 PMIt doesn't work for me. I shudder to contemplate what he does to the Hammerklavier at the end of this recital and I don't think I'm brave enough to find out.



He's much better in the other works.  The embellishments are mannerisms he deploys only in the Op 2 sonatas - well, so far.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2015, 10:51:56 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 12, 2015, 02:56:39 PM
Listening to Op2/1 (i) and all is plain sailing right up until the very end and then, the embellishments. To my knowledge embellishments in the baroque period usually took the form of ornamentation such as mordants, trills, etc. Not a whole extra bar of music as occurs here. This is not what Beethoven wrote and surely not what he intended. Op2/2 (i) is even worse where Jumppanen fills up periods of meaningful silence with extra notes. Those rests (it might be in either hand) were included to be a meaningful part of the structure and tonality of the work. What Jumppanen does doesn't seem purposeful, just filling in the spaces.

It doesn't work for me. I shudder to contemplate what he does to the Hammerklavier at the end of this recital and I don't think I'm brave enough to find out.

Yes they're like mini-cadenzas. I didn't feel that he spoiled the form, but I don't have your acuity probably. However, I'm not as as up for it as Jens -- I can think of quite a few other op 2s I'd prefer to hear. Part of my problem is that I don't like his touch or tone. And I'm inclined to agree with Todd that there's something a bit ugly about the them, and that Gould is more my sort of thing for being fresh, coy and witty.   PJs writing a book on Beethoven's piano sonatas. He clearly doesn't think the music's the score, and he clearly doesn't think that the op 2 silences are as meaningful as you suggest. And he clearly does thing that Beethoven intended a stimulus for performers' imaginations.

I'd be interested to hear what you think of the op 109/iii.

The discussion here has made me think about Beckmesser and Walter's Preislied.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 12, 2015, 11:50:22 PM
But Walter composed the Preislied himself, Jumppanen is welcome to compose his own op.2.
As I said, I'd be interested in any serious research about period practice and/or hints that Beethoven would have assumed performers taking liberties (for all I have read about Beethoven, he might have been furious).

There are spots in concerti or some similar music when additional embellishment or what's called "Eingänge" leading back to a rondo theme or similar things might be called for but filling in rests in a sonata form movement seems fairly preposterous. Should the woodwinds embellish the lyrical B flat major theme (it's simple enough, mainly plain crotchets) in the repeat of the exposition in the first movement of the Eroica? This seems obviously wrong.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on February 13, 2015, 06:20:39 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 12, 2015, 11:50:22 PM
...(for all I have read about Beethoven, he might have been furious).

That seems a safe bet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 13, 2015, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 12, 2015, 10:51:56 PM
Yes they're like mini-cadenzas. I didn't feel that he spoiled the form, but I don't have your acuity probably. However, I'm not as as up for it as Jens -- I can think of quite a few other op 2s I'd prefer to hear. Part of my problem is that I don't like his touch or tone. And I'm inclined to agree with Todd that there's something a bit ugly about the them, and that Gould is more my sort of thing for being fresh, coy and witty.   PJs writing a book on Beethoven's piano sonatas. He clearly doesn't think the music's the score, and he clearly doesn't think that the op 2 silences are as meaningful as you suggest. And he clearly does thing that Beethoven intended a stimulus for performers' imaginations.

I'd be interested to hear what you think of the op 109/iii.

The discussion here has made me think about Beckmesser and Walter's Preislied.

Looks like you've forced me to listen to it. I'll report back when I've heard it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2015, 12:54:18 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 13, 2015, 12:22:12 PM
Looks like you've forced me to listen to it. I'll report back when I've heard it.

Sorry, I meant op 106/ii, the scherzo. Distinctive pauses.  I liked it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 14, 2015, 12:44:03 PM
Had a listen, no surprises or added notes. Just a MOR performance of this work. To make sure I wasn't being too harsh I immediately listened to Annie Fischer for a comparison.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2015, 11:09:47 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 14, 2015, 12:44:03 PM
Had a listen, no surprises or added notes. Just a MOR performance of this work. To make sure I wasn't being too harsh I immediately listened to Annie Fischer for a comparison.

It's not middle of the road in the scherzo because of the pauses.

It does look as though he's reserving the mini cadenzas for the early sonatas so there's a principle being applied. Maybe he'll say more in the booklet to the new CD, if it will be released as a CD.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on February 14, 2015, 11:32:01 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2015, 11:09:47 PM
It's not middle of the road in the scherzo because of the pauses.

It does look as though he's reserving the mini cadenzas for the early sonatas so there's a principle being applied. Maybe he'll say more in the booklet to the new CD, if it will be released as a CD.
'If'?
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00SVF1FCI.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sonatas-Paavali-Jumppanen-1268-2D/dp/B00SVF1FCI/)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on February 22, 2015, 01:20:05 AM
Would welcome any comments on a guy called Shisei Hanai on Spotify. There are three beethoven CDs. What I've heard so far, I think he's fantastic.  Have just been listening to him floor it through 31(3)(IV) while in total control and with lots of expressive detail.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on February 23, 2015, 01:07:34 PM
Received the Daniel Ben-Pienaar set of the 32 but haven't begun listening as still working through Michael Houstoun's set.  Should be interesting, however, as Ben-Pienaar's notes strongly imply an interventionist approach. I have listened to his Goldbergs (no repeats, probably among the fastest since Gould's 1955 recording) and Diabellis. Clearly a formidable intellect and technique at work here. Be interesting to hear what Todd has to say about Ben-Pienaar. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 23, 2015, 01:27:40 PM
Quote from: Fred on February 22, 2015, 01:20:05 AM
Would welcome any comments on a guy called Shisei Hanai on Spotify. There are three beethoven CDs. What I've heard so far, I think he's fantastic.  Have just been listening to him floor it through 31(3)(IV) while in total control and with lots of expressive detail.

Listening now to the Waldstein CD. Just wondering whose bathroom the recording was made in. Maybe it's just the Spotify transfer but the echo is extreme. Apart from that the first movement sounds good.

EDIT:

One thing I believe every good LvB pianist should have is a strong left hand and this appears to be something that Hanai lacks. The further I got into the Waldstein the more I was hearing an indistinct bass line, almost slurred in places. Now that might be down to the quality of the recording but I don't think so. I tested this out with the last mvt of 31/3 and got an even stronger impression that while the notes were there, and accurate, there was nothing happening with them. An almost perfunctory, in the background, quality. Listening to the first movement of Op 13 has not changed my mind in any way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 24, 2015, 09:07:10 AM
Pienaar's 10/3 made me prick up my ears, this guy's got ideas. Like Gould had ideas.

He hasn't got Gould's sense of fun though. Shame.


The tone is transparent and ugly. Maybe ugly's good - stops it from being too romantic, sentimental, smooth. I dunno, I'm trying to get my head around what has probably been a deliberate artistic discision about timbre.

What did a christofori sound like?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 24, 2015, 09:34:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 24, 2015, 09:07:10 AM
Pienaar's 10/3 made me prick up my ears, this guy's got ideas. Like Gould had ideas.

He hasn't got Gould's sense of fun though. Shame.


You need to listen to other sonatas, because Pienaar definitely has a sense of fun in other sonatas.  I'm not sure 10/3 is the funnest sonata.

Sound improves in the late sonatas, which were recorded in 2014, but as recorded, Pienaar does not have a particularly beautiful tone most of the time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2015, 09:54:04 AM
OK Todd, I'll cherry pick some more.

In the first movement of the Pastoral I was struck by the rapid and unpredictable changes of mood and texture. like one minute it's ungainly and ugly and cluncky and heavy, and then it's singng cantabile, and then it's light as a feather. Some of the music in the middle seemed some of the most thrilling Beethoven playing I've heard in ages, as crazy as a Schumann sonata played by Gieseking.

In the second movement I noticed ornamentation (like a guitar?), and some ideas about voice leading in the central passage. I don't know what to make of these things - the voicing seemed pretty random, but I need to think more, feel more, or something.

In the third movement, he's playing with his boots on the keys.  Slapstick.

The final movement was wonderful in every way, great, thrilling, moving, funny, never overbearing.

Anyway very exciting and challenging music making. Makes me think of a french expressiom: plus on est de fous, plus on rit.







Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 25, 2015, 10:26:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2015, 09:54:04 AMAnyway very exciting and challenging music making.



I concur.  This is definitely for fans of interventionist piano playing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2015, 10:37:44 AM
Think of all those other interventionists -- Gould, Lin, Sherman, Heidsieck. He joins them.  Some are U and some non-U.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on February 25, 2015, 10:43:24 AM
Has this news been posted yet in this thread?  The Pollini complete box is out:

[asin]B00NJ1MMZ8[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 25, 2015, 10:52:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2015, 10:37:44 AM
Think of all those other interventionists -- Gould, Lin, Sherman, Heidsieck. He joins them.  Some are U and some non-U.


I assume you mean Lim, not Lin.  Throw in Guy, Yamane, Paik, Pludermacher, and Kuerti and you've got a pretty wide array of interventionist pianists to choose from.  I'm still working my way through the set for the second time and working on comments, but suffice it to say that Pienaar is closer to Heidsieck, Sherman, and Guy in terms of quality, or at least more to my taste.  He also pulls a Yamane in the slow movement of 111.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 25, 2015, 10:54:07 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on February 25, 2015, 10:43:24 AM
Has this news been posted yet in this thread?  The Pollini complete box is out:

[asin]B00NJ1MMZ8[/asin]



Posted before the release.  I posted a quick blurb on the new recordings in the Opp 31, 49 set.  Better to buy all the individual discs for Pollini to double up on some sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2015, 12:05:07 PM
Not easy to make judgements about this type of playing, other than to say "more to my taste", which is saying something about you rather than the performance. Criticism reduced to autobiography. I think it's better to describe.  And ask questions. Like why balance the music like that? Or why ornament like that? If no answer is forthcoming, if it really is just a whim, a casual decision, that seems a weakness.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 25, 2015, 12:22:14 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2015, 10:37:44 AM
Think of all those other interventionists -- Gould, Lin, Sherman, Heidsieck. He joins them.  Some are U and some non-U.

I'd add Fazil Say, whose Beethoven I love.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 25, 2015, 12:56:22 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2015, 12:05:07 PMAnd ask questions.



Describing I'll buy, but not asking questions.  I'd never get answers.  I know precisely why I like Pienaar and Sherman and Heidsieck and Guy so much, what's good and not so good about Paik, and why I don't like Lim and am not wild about Pludermacher or Kuerti.  I believe I've even commented on at least a couple of them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 28, 2015, 12:59:17 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81T4JnH0yRL._SX425_.jpg)




Volume 4 in Jonathan Biss' LvB cycle, now on JB Recordings rather than Onyx, continues on with four excellently played sonatas.  Following on the heels of decidedly intervetionist and more intense Daniel-Ben Pienaar, and in the midst of seven new (to me) recordings by Eric Heidsieck, Biss comes across as a straight-shooter, who, while not devoid of individual touches, doesn't succumb to excess.  2/1 is restrained but peppy; 10/2 light and fun and cleanly articulated;  49/1 is charming; and 57 is energetic and fiery, in a classical sort of way.  Sound is superb.  The only complaint, a mere quibble, is one gets to hear a fair amount of Biss' breathing.  Excellent in every way. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 03, 2015, 07:01:40 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91M%2BA7NPaoL._SX425_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81tC3I%2BUcyL._SX425_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81lL3IHKahL._SX425_.jpg)




With more Japanese sellers in the US Amazon marketplace, I decided to snag some Eric Heidsieck recordings that were otherwise a bit too spendy for my taste.  These three discs includes a smorgasbord of goodies, but mostly they include Beethoven.  Seven sonatas, to be exact.  The two Uwajima discs are live recitals, the Sonte Pastorale disc a studio affair.  They were recorded between 1989 and 1993.  Sound is not especially good for any, but it is poor – bright and pingy and echo-y for the 1989 Tempest/Estampes disc.  That's a shame because the playing is good across the board, and 31/2, if not the most intense around, is light and classical in demeanor, with a high energy closer.  Sound is less of an issue through headphones fed by a discman, but even then it's less than ideal.  (The real shame, though, is Estampes, which is dazzling in Heidsieck's conception.  I will probably have to spring for his 1970s Cassiopee recording now.) 

The Beethoven Recital disc has Opp 13, 27/2, and 57.  The first two fare well and are enjoyable without qualification.  Op 57 finds Heidsieck suffering what appears to be something of a memory lapse at the end of the first movement, though he manages to recover eventually.  There's plenty of energy on offer. 

The Sonte Pastorale disc is another threefer, this time Opp 28, 49/2, and 111.  Op 28 sounds magnificent in the first two movements, has a way too slow Scherzo, and a slightly too slow final movement, just like the EMI set.  Also like the EMI set, 49/2 is more substantive than normal, but Heidsieck keeps it light enough and quite beautiful.  His dynamic and rhythmic freedom may be slightly more noticeable, but that's quite alright.  Op 111 lacks the potency and intensity of the best versions in the first movement, and the depth in the second, yet Heidsieck manages to play with enough depth and "natural" flow to make it work well, and of course some details are superb, such as the "little stars" and trills.  Both the EMI and Ogam recordings of the last sonata are better, but this was more than worth hearing for me.

Now I have to decide if the Ogam 101/106 is worth spending over $30 to get a used copy from Germany.  (Ironically, the seller is located in the Seattle area, but I'd have to buy through Germany – and yes I tried to email the guy.)  The Ogam Opp 53/54/57 appears to be completely gone everywhere on earth, and I now have a most wanted single LvB recording: Heidsieck's debut recording – a 1957 Op 106.  Never on CD, and a rarity on LP, I will probably only ever ponder it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 08, 2015, 06:54:32 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2015, 12:29:31 PM
After completing the Pollini and Houstoun cycles, I cobbled together a rough list of how I would rank the various cycles I've heard.  I hasten to point out that almost every cycle has at least a few redeeming qualities and a few sonatas that really shine. 



Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Second Tier (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yusuke Kikuchi

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ichiro Nodaira (may be second tier stuff – Op 31 is so freakin' good . . .)
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Peter Rösel
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat
....

I am a bit surprised Yves Nat didn't make second tier. Was it a close call?

I am listening to his set again tonight and really enjoying each and every performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 08, 2015, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: George on March 08, 2015, 06:54:32 PMI am a bit surprised Yves Nat didn't make second tier. Was it a close call?



The tiering is inexact, of course.  It's been a while since I listened to all of Nat's cycle, and at his best Nat is exceptional, but his set is a bit uneven, and I find that his late sonatas aren't as relatively good as many of his earlier sonatas.  All of the sets I put the third tier have many sonatas that are exceptionally good, but end up being too uneven overall, and often falter somewhat in either Op 31 or the late sonatas. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 04:41:05 AM
I wish Yves Nat would be re-issued with just the Beethoven, in a  nice little slim box.

Meanwhile I seem to remember that the ICON issue of his pianism, including the complete Beethoven, has been newly remastered. Is that correct? Has anyone (I'm looking at you, Todd) heard both, the old brick-set and the recordings in the black box? 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ElQjU4xsL.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61xCoMXsfiL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 18, 2015, 05:27:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 04:41:05 AMHas anyone (I'm looking at you, Todd) heard both, the old brick-set and the recordings in the black box? 



Yes.  I cannot recall really big differences in sound quality.  The new set may be a bit "fuller", but I ditched the old set, so I can't do comparisons.  I will say that the Icon box is superior since it includes some Schumann.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Henk on March 18, 2015, 05:31:23 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2015, 12:29:31 PM
After completing the Pollini and Houstoun cycles, I cobbled together a rough list of how I would rank the various cycles I've heard.  I hasten to point out that almost every cycle has at least a few redeeming qualities and a few sonatas that really shine. 



Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Second Tier (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yusuke Kikuchi

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ichiro Nodaira (may be second tier stuff – Op 31 is so freakin' good . . .)
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Peter Rösel
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat



Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jeno Jando
John Lill
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama



Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland

That's impressive. Need Serkin. No Lim?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 18, 2015, 06:29:24 AM
Quote from: Henk on March 18, 2015, 05:31:23 AM
No Lim?


Maybe one day I will revisit her cycle in its entirety, but not today.  With so many other choices out there, why go bottom tier?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 18, 2015, 07:17:58 AM
For the record, the Nat set is not in the Icon series. It's in that EMI France series that produces better sound. (Less noise reduction)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 18, 2015, 07:29:56 AM
Quote from: George on March 18, 2015, 07:17:58 AM
For the record, the Nat set is not in the Icon series. It's in that EMI France series that produces better sound. (Less noise reduction)



I can't keep my reissue programs straight anymore.  I will say that the more recent old-box, new-box comparison I was able to make with the French reissues was the six disc Cortot plays Chopin and the forty disc Cortot plays everything sets, and the sound in the big Cortot set was generally better, though not by enough to warrant a separate purchase just for the same six discs, and those are 78s transfers I was able to compare.  (The '20s chamber recordings in the Cortot box sound immensely better than the Naxos transfers, though.)   Tape remasterings tend to offer less bang for the buck in many cases, though not all (eg, the Lili Krauss Mozart sonatas).  I can't recall doing A/Bs with Nat in the Beethoven and thinking the sound was significantly better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 08:47:07 AM
Quote from: George on March 18, 2015, 07:17:58 AM
For the record, the Nat set is not in the Icon series. It's in that EMI France series that produces better sound. (Less noise reduction)

Ah, well, not Icon, then... but the one pictured. But you are saying that the newer, black box ("Ses Enregistrements 1930-56") has noise-reduction over-kill and that the old white box is to be preferred, instead? (If one does pick Nat, that is. I used to unthinkingly dismiss him as an early also-ran, but recent sampling of early sonatas of his brought out a delightful, playful side that I quite cherished.)

Quote from: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 04:41:05 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ElQjU4xsL.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61xCoMXsfiL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 18, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 08:47:07 AM
Ah, well, not Icon, then... but the one pictured. But you are saying that the newer, black box ("Ses Enregistrements 1930-56") has noise-reduction over-kill and that the old white box is to be preferred, instead? (If one does pick Nat, that is. I used to unthinkingly dismiss him as an early also-ran, but recent sampling of early sonatas of his brought out a delightful, playful side that I quite cherished.)
I think George is saying that the newish, black French box series is, in general, better than the Icon series for sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 09:56:26 AM
Quote from: Brian on March 18, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
I think George is saying that the newish, black French box series is, in general, better than the Icon series for sound.

Ah, yes, upon re-reading, I think you are right. So, still no answer -- except "I can't recall doing A/Bs with Nat in the Beethoven and thinking the sound was significantly better", which could mean that he can't recall there being notable differences or that he can't recall doing it A/Bs in the first place. Hmpf.  :D >:(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 18, 2015, 10:00:21 AM
Quote from: Brian on March 18, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
I think George is saying that the newish, black French box series is, in general, better than the Icon series for sound.

Correct!

And Jens, while I fully agree Nat is absolutely delightful in the early works. I also feel that his set lacks the consistency to make it a top pick. I think he's a fine 4th pick, though, I'd place him even ahead of both Kempff's sets. My top 4 remain Annie Fischer, Gulda (amadeo/Brilliant), Schnabel (Naxos) and Backhaus (stereo for sound, mono for slightly better performance.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 18, 2015, 10:04:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 09:56:26 AM
Ah, yes, upon re-reading, I think you are right. So, still no answer -- except "I can't recall doing A/Bs with Nat in the Beethoven and thinking the sound was significantly better", which could mean that he can't recall there being notable differences or that he can't recall doing it A/Bs in the first place. Hmpf.  :D >:(

I have no doubt that the sound on the Newest Nat set is the very best availalble. I am very picky about these things. :)

As Todd has stated, the latest Cortot has better sound that prior issues of the same performances. I own pretty much all of them and the newer box has the best sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 10:13:07 AM
Quote from: George on March 18, 2015, 10:00:21 AM
Correct!

And Jens, while I fully agree Nat is absolutely delightful in the early works. I also feel that his set lacks the consistency to make it a top pick. I think he's a fine 4th pick, though, I'd place him even ahead of both Kempff's sets. My top 4 remain Annie Fischer, Gulda (amadeo/Brilliant), Schnabel (Naxos) and Backhaus (stereo for sound, mono for slightly better performance.)

Thanks... and not to worry... it wouldn't be my No.4.  :D
I have those you mention but Annie Fischer (haven't heard anything of hers that makes me really, really want to seek her cycle out, despite consistently -- if rather exclusively to GMG -- being hailed to the skys.)
Gulda ranks very high in my estimation, too, and might be the easiest to recommend as a first/only cycle. Schnabel I take no particular pleasure in; Backhaus I adore and is probably my personal favorite. (I haven't listened to all of the mono recordings, which I finally got my hands on last year, but what I've heard doesn't strike me as better than the stereo set.) Kempff, on the other hand, is a cycle where I do tend to think that the mono recordings might be a bit more playful. But funnily enough, these ... and "No.4" Yves Nat ... are all the cycles that had the longest to establish a reputation; clustered (except for Fischer, but not by much) at the very beginning of the recording of 'complete Beethoven Sonata cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)'. We're only missing Brendel I and Arrau I (not counting Gulda 0, Kempff Japan, Grinberg, and Gulda I which were all 'discovered/available' only much later than they were recorded) to have a complete party of the earliest 13 sets.

Quote from: George on March 18, 2015, 10:04:11 AM
I have no doubt that the sound on the Newest Nat set is the very best availalble. I am very picky about these things. :)

As Todd has stated, the latest Cortot has better sound that prior issues of the same performances. I own pretty much all of them and the newer box has the best sound.

Ah, that is good to know. So I suppose if I'm interested in Nat I either convince a company to issue only the Beethoven or, more realistically, I go with the catch-all EMI box.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 18, 2015, 10:56:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 10:13:07 AM
Thanks... and not to worry... it wouldn't be my No.4.  :D
I have those you mention but Annie Fischer (haven't heard anything of hers that makes me really, really want to seek her cycle out, despite consistently -- if rather exclusively to GMG -- being hailed to the skys.)

She has been praised elsewhere on the internet. On Steve Hoffman Music Forums there are a few big fans of hers, for example. Also on rmcr.

I have yet to find another recording by her that impresses me as much as her Beethoven. I suspect she had a special affinity for the composer.

QuoteGulda ranks very high in my estimation, too, and might be the easiest to recommend as a first/only cycle. Schnabel I take no particular pleasure in; Backhaus I adore and is probably my personal favorite. (I haven't listened to all of the mono recordings, which I finally got my hands on last year, but what I've heard doesn't strike me as better than the stereo set.) Kempff, on the other hand, is a cycle where I do tend to think that the mono recordings might be a bit more playful. But funnily enough, these ... and "No.4" Yves Nat ... are all the cycles that had the longest to establish a reputation; clustered (except for Fischer, but not by much) at the very beginning of the recording of 'complete Beethoven Sonata cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)'. We're only missing Brendel I and Arrau I (not counting Gulda 0, Kempff Japan, Grinberg, and Gulda I which were all 'discovered/available' only much later than they were recorded) to have a complete party of the earliest 13 sets.

I gave Brendel's first set a go on a number of occasions and each time I failed to connect with what he was doing. Arrau I have sampled and may one day get, as I am a big fan of the pianist. But I feel his talents are better served elsewhere (Chopin, Schumann and Brahms, to start with.) 

QuoteAh, that is good to know. So I suppose if I'm interested in Nat I either convince a company to issue only the Beethoven or, more realistically, I go with the catch-all EMI box.

Yeah, I think his Beethoven is a lot more successful than his Schumann, which comprises much of remains of the larger box. The single disc of his works at the end is very interesting and well worth having, though. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 18, 2015, 11:12:47 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61xCoMXsfiL._SX522_.jpg)

From the notes: "mastered from 78s and the original magnetic tapes."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on March 18, 2015, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: George on March 18, 2015, 11:12:47 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61xCoMXsfiL._SX522_.jpg)

From the notes: "mastered from 78s and the original magnetic tapes."

merci bien!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 18, 2015, 07:50:31 PM
Paavali Jumppanen's Opp. 53 & 57 are very, very fine. A tiny bit eccentric but entirely to the good, and there are a couple "hidden" inner-voice melodies he stresses which, in my hundreds of listens, I've somehow never before heard. Very satisfied and looking forward to hearing the rest of the set.

The most eccentric thing might be somebody's decision to put the Waldstein finale's coda on a separate track.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on March 20, 2015, 11:58:08 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 18, 2015, 07:50:31 PM
Paavali Jumppanen's Opp. 53 & 57 are very, very fine. A tiny bit eccentric but entirely to the good, and there are a couple "hidden" inner-voice melodies he stresses which, in my hundreds of listens, I've somehow never before heard. Very satisfied and looking forward to hearing the rest of the set.

The most eccentric thing might be somebody's decision to put the Waldstein finale's coda on a separate track.

Regarding opp.53 & 57: Jumppanen's on the rush-y side, takes a rather unromantic approach (not bad things at all if done right and with a reason, which is mostly the case here) and he does elucidate inner voices. However, phrasing suffers at times due to speed and I'd rather he played with a bit more feeling in certain passages.
The op.10 works benefit more from this approach than opp.53 & 57 and are simply excellent. This is the most satisfying op.10/3 last movement I've heard in a long time. Overall, first impressions are very good for opp.53 & 57, excellent for opp.10/1-3.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 21, 2015, 05:49:14 AM
Counterpoint to the rushing thing: Waldstein's slow "introduzione" is taken at a properly slow tempo; I don't like it when pianists try to rush through in only 3 minutes.

Excited to hear Op. 10 next week.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2015, 06:25:11 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71OkS373wOL._SX522_.jpg)



Jumppanen plays 10/1 in a fairly conventional manner.  The ascending arepeggios in the first movement are nice, as is the rest of the movemnet; the slow movement is appealing; the final movement is energetic, fast, and meticulously well played.  10/2 starts off in promising fashion, with Jumppanen keeping things light and fun, and just sort of – wait, WTF?  He throws in a mini-cadenza near the end for, well, I have no idea whatsoever.  It doesn't fit at all.  The second movement is fine, and the final movement is generally fine, though some right hand chords sound more like stitched together tone clusters.  10/3 also opens fairly conventionally, with a peppy tempo in the Presto, and not a little in the way of awesome independence of hands.  No hard to follow bass lines here.  The Largo is slow and gloomy-ish and possessed of the extended pauses displayed in the first volume.  Jumppanen ratchets up intensity nicely for the climax and trails off thereafter.  The last two movements are again both pretty conventional, though both are delievered with a nice degree of exhuberance.  So, the WTF moment and perhaps a few too long pauses aside, an excellent disc.    

The second disc is devoted to Op 50-something works.  It's always nice to listen to a pianist who can play the opening movement of Op 53 at any tempo he or she chooses while also displaying masterful dynamic control.  Jumppanen doesn't really shine a new light on anything, and his extended pauses at the end aside, doesn't even throw in any quirks.  The Introduzione is a bit slower than normal, but nothing unusual, and the final movement has a basically perfect tempo, a vast dynamic range, and great clarity.  The opening movement to Op 54 displays widely contrasting themes, and Jumppanen displays some mighty clean and accurate playing in the fast sections, and some more slightly extended pauses aside, is pretty straightforward, and the second movement is played in swift, perpetuum mobile style.  Op 57 offers Jumppanen an ability to display his chops again, with wide dynamic swings, precise playing, some loud, fast chords stopping on a dime, and all manner of pianistic pyrotechnics in the first movement.  The Andante is a nice rest, though not without tension where appropriate, that gives way to a fast, intense, clear, hefty, meticulously played final movement.  I can't say there's much passion or emotional involvement; it's just super-snazzy playing.  Jumppanen seems to dash the notes off with ease.  Another excellent disc.

SOTA sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 29, 2015, 04:15:06 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81lO-9epWpL._SY425_.jpg)



Just two sonatas.  That's all the solo Beethoven currently available from the late Hans Leygraf.  But hey, he left recordings of the last two sonatas. 

The 1973 vintage Op 110 starts off with a slow Moderato cantabile molto espressivo.  It is very formal and serious, not particularly emotional – maybe even a tad cold – yet in its restraint, it is incredibly expressive, and poised, and profound.  The Allegro molto is potent and dashed off quickly, and manages to sound light in the context of the performance, but it is still late LvB.  The Adagio is stylistically very much like the first movement and just as effective.  The fugue opens in very slow and deliberate fashion, and the playing is a bit cool and reasonably clear.  The Arioso is somber, ending with nice repeated chords that end with a sense of exhaustion, and then transitions peacefully to the inverted fugue, which is like the original fugue, and the piece ends in a controlled rather than rambunctious manner.  A superb performance.

Op 111, from 1980, opens with a dark, stormy Maestoso and moves to an even stormier Allegro.  The dated, metallic sound adds additional bite.  The playing is moderately quick and well controlled, if not the last work in virtuoso pyrotechnics.  Leygraf transitions to the Arietta basically attacca, and the the playing maintains a comparatively high degree of tension.  The transition to the variations sounds a bit abrupt, but Leygraf maintains a nice late-LvB feel.  He maintains something less than a breakneck pace, and the boogie woogie variation, while loud and powerful, does not speed up unduly.  The "little stars" are clear and cool, the trills clean and sharp, the coda nicely transcendental.  An excellent performance.

So, a superb Op 110 that can withstand comparison to the big guns, and a serious and excellent Op 111 that probably cannot.  Overall, a very rewarding disc.

Sound for the now dated radio broadcast recordings is acceptable if not SOTA, even for 1973 and 1980.  There's a bit more resonance and metallic sheen in Op 111, too. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on March 31, 2015, 03:51:19 PM
There is an upcoming 32 by Lang Lang. Label: DGG.

I wonder how many (if any) will fall for that ??  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 31, 2015, 04:42:20 PM
Quote from: André on March 31, 2015, 03:51:19 PMThere is an upcoming 32 by Lang Lang. Label: DGG.



Where's the info on this?  I'll buy it the day it's released, though my expectations are not exactly high.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on March 31, 2015, 07:10:32 PM
Quote from: André on March 31, 2015, 03:51:19 PM
There is an upcoming 32 by Lang Lang. Label: DGG.

I wonder how many (if any) will fall for that ??  ::)

Is that to go alongside his planned WTC?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on April 01, 2015, 02:41:39 AM
Old and New Testaments? Following the recent Mozart with Harnoncourt?

Methinks Mr Lang is eyeing conducting in the near future...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on April 01, 2015, 09:25:51 AM
Release date: 04.01.2015. In another forum I read that a new LL disc containing Nono and Xenakis is also issued on the same date.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 01, 2015, 09:30:47 AM
Quote from: André on April 01, 2015, 09:25:51 AMRelease date: 04.01.2015.



Ah, I see.  It kind of loses its value without the date thing being included, or being posted on the first.  I would think an LL LvB cycle is a very real possibility sometime closer to 2020 or 2027.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 07, 2015, 07:13:34 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71vS0TVD5-L._SY425_.jpg)


I don't think Yoshihiro Kondo has been mentioned before, but in any event, it looks like he's approaching the finish line of his cycle.  I'm inclined to wait for the box, or maybe not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on April 08, 2015, 03:33:29 PM
The Malcolm Binns set of late sonatas has arrived.  I look forward to listen to that !
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 17, 2015, 11:26:03 AM
A new installment in James Brawn's cycle, which is definitely one of the most exciting ongoing series (to me).

(http://www.msrcd.com/cdcovers/cd494.jpg)

"James Brawn views the programme of volume 4 as "lyrical and life affirming". He feels that these sonatas "exhibit Beethoven's lighter, more positive nature"."

No. 9 (Op. 14/1)
No. 15 "Pastorale"
No. 24 (Op. 78)
No. 25 (Op. 79)
No. 27 (Op. 90)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 17, 2015, 01:20:39 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 17, 2015, 11:26:03 AM
A new installment in James Brawn's cycle, which is definitely one of the most exciting ongoing series (to me).

(http://www.msrcd.com/cdcovers/cd494.jpg)

"James Brawn views the programme of volume 4 as "lyrical and life affirming". He feels that these sonatas "exhibit Beethoven's lighter, more positive nature"."

No. 9 (Op. 14/1)
No. 15 "Pastorale"
No. 24 (Op. 78)
No. 25 (Op. 79)
No. 27 (Op. 90)

I looked at this from Amazon and am ROFLMAO:
"He takes us on a journey through the various keys of the album, beginning with Sonata No. 9 in the spirited key of E major, followed by Sonata No.15 (Pastorale) in the key of D major, which is also the key of Johann Sebastian Bach's glorious and joyful Magnificat."

What utter nonsense. E major is only as "spirited" as the music written in it. I could just as well say E major is the gentle and pastoral key of the prelude from Book I of the WTC, or the serene slow movement of the LvB quartet op. 59/2, or the variations from op. 109, or the Bruckner 7th. And what earthly difference does it make that op. 28 is in the same key as the Magnificat? It is also the same key as the Mahler 1st and 9th, the Strauss Don Quixote, and the Brahms and Tchaikovsky violin concertos. The real reason those concertos are in D, by the way, is that the chords in those keys allow for the maximum number of open strings on the solo violin, thus maximizing the brilliance of the instrumental sound. And then we have the "divine" key of F# major. Divine my ass. It was a rarely used key in Beethoven's day due to the vagaries of his tuning system. Chopin's Barcarolle is in F#, but does that make it any more "divine" than any of his other divine works?

Beethoven showed how much he cared about the "spiritedness" of E major by transposing op. 14/1 to F when he transcribed it for string quartet. Why? Because in that way he could use the cello's low C string as the dominant of the key.

I should like to know what the keystruck Mr. Brawn makes of the first movement of op. 90, which to my ears is the most snarling, nasty, bitter little movement in Beethoven's output.

ETA: One version of the glorious and joyful Bach Magnificat is in Eb major. Let's now start making comparisons between that work and Beethoven's Les Adieux and op. 31/3 sonatas, not to mention the op. 127 quartet and the Eroica symphony.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 17, 2015, 02:55:20 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 17, 2015, 01:20:39 PM
I should like to know what the keystruck Mr. Brawn makes of the first movement of op. 90, which to my ears is the most snarling, nasty, bitter little movement in Beethoven's output.
Hmm, I'd have chosen something from Op. 95 for that honor (or the Grosse Fuge).

I assume Mr. Brawn did not write those marketing materials. MSR Classics is one of those labels where an artist pays the label for marketing/distribution and then gets royalties back (if they do). It says a lot about today's classical recording market that that's not considered a scam - and that MSR has some serious artists in its fold. (I recently reviewed one from the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra bassoonist.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 17, 2015, 03:20:45 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 17, 2015, 02:55:20 PM
Hmm, I'd have chosen something from Op. 95 for that honor (or the Grosse Fuge).

I assume Mr. Brawn did not write those marketing materials. MSR Classics is one of those labels where an artist pays the label for marketing/distribution and then gets royalties back (if they do). It says a lot about today's classical recording market that that's not considered a scam - and that MSR has some serious artists in its fold. (I recently reviewed one from the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra bassoonist.)

Well, your two pieces are certainly in the running. I remember a recorded performance of 90 however by Brendel, where he completely downplayed the snarling minor ninths, dissonant suspensions, and sforzandos (that word again!) that I see as so essential to that angry little movement. But it's also interesting that each of these pieces in its own way finds a way out of the initial nihilism: op. 90 through its quasi-Schubertian second movement in a serene (not "spirited") E major, the GF by resolving the dissonant chromaticism of most of the piece through a purely diatonic ending, and 95 by evaporating the tragic intensity of virtually the entire work via a coda of pure Rossinian comedy. As with the 5th and 9th symphonies, Beethoven never ends any of his works on a note of unresolved tragedy.

I have no idea if Brawn wrote the materials or approved them. But you haven't rebutted my points about the key structures, and at the very least I think the artist would have to have seen the materials attached to his recordings. (Charles Rosen started writing his own liner notes when he decided that the notes written for him were so incredibly stupid.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 17, 2015, 04:37:28 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 17, 2015, 03:20:45 PMBut you haven't rebutted my points about the key structures,
You know nobody can rebut those! I do comment on idiotic marketing and liner notes when they come my way (e.g. paragraphs 4- (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Feb11/Schubert_Divertissement_0774.htm)), so if the physical CD has that stuff, I'll let you (and the public) know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 17, 2015, 05:29:32 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 17, 2015, 04:37:28 PM
You know nobody can rebut those! I do comment on idiotic marketing and liner notes when they come my way (e.g. paragraphs 4- (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Feb11/Schubert_Divertissement_0774.htm)), so if the physical CD has that stuff, I'll let you (and the public) know.

Yes, I read your essay. It's hilarious. I wish I could read the whole set of notes, but I'm not going to waste my money on an unpromising recording.

Regarding keys, there is in fact a long history in musical aesthetics of attributing various emotional characteristics to various keys. See:
http://biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm

The problem is two-fold, however: none of the characteristics alleged by various commentators agree with each other, and none of the them is consistently borne out by the musical literature. Nor can it be shown that the character of a particular key is inherent, or simply the result of a tradition. C minor for example: since at least Beethoven's time (5th symphony, Pathetique, op. 18/4 quartet, C minor violin sonata, op. 111) and possibly before (Mozart C minor fantasy/sonata), this has been considered the Sturm und Drang key (think Brahms 1 and his first quartet, Schubert C minor sonata, Mahler 2, Bruckner 8, Death and Transfiguration). But I doubt there's anything intrinsic to C minor that might not have been true of A minor or F# minor had a tradition started that way.

Key characteristics include color-values for keys, and I confess I associate colors with various keys myself. But my colors vary completely from Scriabin's, for example. I think I had a recording of Mahler 4 where the album color was blue; hence I consider G major light blue. C major for me is slate-blue, Eb dark green, D a rich red, A a bright red, E green, Db a rich wine-red, Bb brown. But I'm under no illusion that these associations are anything but subjective and personal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on April 17, 2015, 05:48:29 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 17, 2015, 04:37:28 PMI do comment on idiotic marketing and liner notes when they come my way (e.g. paragraphs 4- (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Feb11/Schubert_Divertissement_0774.htm))
lol, I have two recordings by Valery Afanassiev and his piano playing style is exactly like that as well

*plays the piano part of Brahms Op. 100 for 30 seconds* "ok I'm bored, I'm going to just play whatever I feel like for the next 20 minutes while Gidon does his thing" *every phrase has stream of consciousness articulation and/or tempo relations that makes no sense* "heeey get this, what if Brahms was actually a practitioner of tantric yoga?" *incredible slowness*

(It's actually pretty enjoyable on some levels...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on April 18, 2015, 12:17:52 AM
Brendel's 1970s recording of op.90 is the mildest (in the first movement) I have heard. I find it rather irritating.

There are actually a few Beethoven pieces where one could argue that they end without obvious "resolution", the finales of e.g. the Appassionata sonata and some others (like op.27/2 and op.31/2) remain in the minor until the end.

My hypothesis about the key characteristics is that they existed in older tuning systems and affected many of the wind instruments still in Mozart's and Beethoven's time. So they have a vague and weak basis in objective features (like the open strings of the violin) but most of it comes from later tradition because of prominent works in the key, like Beethoven's 5th symphony for all those c minor -> major per aspera ad astra pieces.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2015, 03:09:11 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 18, 2015, 12:17:52 AM
Brendel's 1970s recording of op.90 is the mildest (in the first movement) I have heard. I find it rather irritating.

There are actually a few Beethoven pieces where one could argue that they end without obvious "resolution", the finales of e.g. the Appassionata sonata and some others (like op.27/2 and op.31/2) remain in the minor until the end.

You are right of course about those finales. I can't pretend to keep all 138 opus numbers in mind all at once. Glad you concur about the Brendel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on April 18, 2015, 03:23:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 18, 2015, 12:17:52 AM
There are actually a few Beethoven pieces where one could argue that they end without obvious "resolution", the finales of e.g. the Appassionata sonata and some others (like op.27/2 and op.31/2) remain in the minor until the end.
Appassionata, Pathetique & Moonlight among others all end in a sort of violent rage against the heavens which is kind of a resolution I guess. 31/2 is the only piece by Beethoven I can think of right away that ends both in a minor key and quietly, 1/3 is a borderline case (switches to major but only ends up giving an impression of utter exhaustion). Op. 90 ends without an obvious 'resolution' but one could argue that the entire second movement is the resolution...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2015, 04:54:18 AM
Quote from: amw on April 18, 2015, 03:23:29 AM
Appassionata, Pathetique & Moonlight among others all end in a sort of violent rage against the heavens which is kind of a resolution I guess. 31/2 is the only piece by Beethoven I can think of right away that ends both in a minor key and quietly, 1/3 is a borderline case (switches to major but only ends up giving an impression of utter exhaustion). Op. 90 ends without an obvious 'resolution' but one could argue that the entire second movement is the resolution...

Could be simply that we should not let ourselves be constrained by a word such as "resolution," which may work fine for the 5th symphony but not so well for op. 90 or 95? The E minor sonata offers two movements that stand in stark emotional contrast, with no apparent attempt to relate them. In the quartet, it is as if Beethoven - having exhausted the tragic and violent emotions for a good twenty minutes - simply decides, "something too much of this," and recovers his sense of humor and the absurd. Resolution? I don't know, and solemn commentators have been bothered by that tiny Rossinian explosion. But somehow the progression of feelings for me works (as the finale of Mozart's G minor quintet I'm afraid doesn't).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on April 18, 2015, 05:23:55 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2015, 04:54:18 AM
Could be simply that we should not let ourselves be constrained by a word such as "resolution," which may work fine for the 5th symphony but not so well for op. 90 or 95? The E minor sonata offers two movements that stand in stark emotional contrast, with not apparent attempt to relate them. In the quartet, it is as if Beethoven - having exhausted the tragic and violent emotions for a good twenty minutes - simply decides, "something too much of this," and recovers his sense of humor and the absurd. Resolution? I don't know, and solemn commentators have been bothered by that tiny Rossinian explosion. But somehow the progression of feelings for me works (as the finale of Mozart's G minor quintet I'm afraid doesn't).

And is that not why Beethoven is seen as one of the top examples of Romanticism, where such things confound the "solemn commentators" ?   0:)  Expression stretching form into new directions was one of the hallmarks of the era, e.g. Berlioz and the Symphonie Fantastique with its chromatic idee fixe and of course a "program" influencing the structure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2015, 06:29:41 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 18, 2015, 05:23:55 AM
And is that not why Beethoven is seen as one of the top examples of Romanticism, where such things confound the "solemn commentators" ?   0:)  Expression stretching form into new directions was one of the hallmarks of the era, e.g. Berlioz and the Symphonie Fantastique with its chromatic idee fixe and of course a "program" influencing the structure.

Because of Beethoven's use of harmony, form, and key structure, I continue to place him primarily within the Classical tradition as opposed to the Romantic. These terms of course meant nothing to the composers themselves and were simply labels attached by later commentators. But unlike a symphony or quartet by Mozart or Haydn, where the four movements are generally like a menu of courses that harmonize well with each other but rarely form a clear progression, Beethoven already in early works like the Moonlight Sonata was seeking to integrate the movements of the work as a more unified whole. I wouldn't say he did this consistently or deliberately in all cases, but by the end of his career with pieces like the C# minor quartet and 9th symphony, there was an overall arc to the complete work that is not found in his predecessors. Among other things, this entailed placing greater emphasis on the finale, which in Mozart or Haydn was generally much lighter than the opening sonata-form movements, a kind of dessert to the meal rather than a Beethovenian culmination.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ajb on April 18, 2015, 07:23:01 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2015, 06:29:41 AM
Because of Beethoven's use of harmony, form, and key structure, I continue to place him primarily within the Classical tradition as opposed to the Romantic. These terms of course meant nothing to the composers themselves and were simply labels attached by later commentators.

;D Which "terms" are you talking about? The styles? I don't think one can put one composer into a specific tradition or not. It's the style of the composition that qualifies as "classical" or "romantic". Therefore, as far as the sonatas are concerned before op 53 are classical compositions, after op 53 are romantic...regardless of one's thoughts
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on April 18, 2015, 08:19:25 AM
Clearly, the whole "arc" in a work like the 5th symphony seems to demand a resolution as the one emphatically given, more obviously than many others works of his.
The Appassionata seems to some extent a contrasting parallel to the 5th symphony. Both have a passionate, catastrophically ending first movement and a comparably "neutral", quiet second movement (both times variations). But then one gets the emphatic triumph in the symphony and more and wilder rage against fate (or whatever) in the piano sonata.
The Rondo of op.13 seems comparably relaxed or even playful (at least at times). Not sure but I think in this case Beethoven had not really the imaginative power for a finale comparable in tragic passion (or emphatic resolution) so he "fell back" to a rather conventional movement, however brilliantly done and with nice contrasts.

The "Tempest" finale is a rather unique piece (there are a few more "perpetuum mobile" pieces (maybe op.26,iv and 54,ii) but none is so huge and in the minor. Maybe there really is some poetic program for this sonata and the finale is the rolling sea or a galloping horse or whatever.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on April 18, 2015, 08:41:38 AM
For me, the finale of the Appassionata is like a medieval Dance of Death. The last three chords are like the final nails in the coffin: signed, sealed, delivered - see you all on Judgment´s Day.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 19, 2015, 03:31:50 PM
Quote from: ajb on April 18, 2015, 07:23:01 AM
;D Which "terms" are you talking about? The styles? I don't think one can put one composer into a specific tradition or not. It's the style of the composition that qualifies as "classical" or "romantic". Therefore, as far as the sonatas are concerned before op 53 are classical compositions, after op 53 are romantic...regardless of one's thoughts

The terms I was referring to, and the styles as well, were Classic and Romantic. And no, Beethoven did not wake up one morning and say, "Yesterday I was a Classicist! From today on I am a Romantic!" Whatever peripheral elements of Romanticism one can trace in Beethoven, the essence of his style always remained Classical, regardless of how he expanded the Classical language. And by "style" I refer to his use, as stated above, of harmony, form, and key-structure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on April 19, 2015, 11:17:16 PM
It seems also very odd to draw a line at op.53. If one means the typical forms of movements (sonata form etc.) Beethoven is "classicist"/classical. There are some freer pieces but a bunch of them are rather early, like op.27 "quasi una fantasia"(the second obviously also corresponds to romantic clichees in emotional expression). In op.31 Beethoven includes a piece with some "romantic" features (mood, some freedoms in the first movements), namely the "Tempest" sonata and and almost neoclassicist one, the G major.
There is only one "free" fantasy by Beethoven (op.77) and this is not a major piece, compared to most sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ajb on April 21, 2015, 03:18:03 AM
I can't respond to the first answer because it is irrelavant to my iteration... but it might be best for everyone if you both revisited basic knowledge on styles, forms, Beethoven's life, etc. instead of re-designing them to fit with your opinions...no offense intended at all
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on April 21, 2015, 03:38:35 AM
Quote from: ajb on April 21, 2015, 03:18:03 AM
I can't respond to the first answer because it is irrelavant to my iteration... but it might be best for everyone if you both revisited basic knowledge on styles, forms, Beethoven's life, etc. instead of re-designing them to fit with your opinions...no offense intended at all

Well, excuse us benighted poor devils. We can hardly wait for your knowledge to illuminate the darkness of our minds...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on April 21, 2015, 03:52:38 AM
o.k., so op.27/1 with an improvisatory andante (with fast middle section), Scherzo, slow-intro and Sonata-Rondo finale is "classical" whereas op.106 with 4 movements following the typical sonata movement types and in the usual forms (except for the finale fugue) is romantic? How so? These are, admittedly, very superficial criteria but they are enough to cast doubt on simple dividing lines.
Or, put differently: Does op.27/1 or op.106 sound more like Chopin or Schumann? Neither sounds like Chopin or Schumann?! So which criteria make one piece classical the other romantic?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 21, 2015, 05:51:58 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 21, 2015, 03:52:38 AM
o.k., so op.27/1 with an improvisatory andante (with fast middle section), Scherzo, slow-intro and Sonata-Rondo finale is "classical" whereas op.106 with 4 movements following the typical sonata movement types and in the usual forms (except for the finale fugue) is romantic? How so? These are, admittedly, very superficial criteria but they are enough to cast doubt on simple dividing lines.
Or, put differently: Does op.27/1 or op.106 sound more like Chopin or Schumann? Neither sounds like Chopin or Schumann?! So which criteria make one piece classical the other romantic?

Irrelavant to his iteration. But for those genuinely interested in the musical issues, the most thorough argument for placing Beethoven in the Classical tradition is the chapter on "Beethoven's Later Years" in Charles Rosen's The Classical Style (2nd edition from 1997 only). As Rosen states, "In general, Beethoven's originality reveals itself not by frustrating the conventions that he learned as a child, but by magnifying them beyond the experience or expectations of any of his contemporaries." Elsewhere Rosen speaks of Beethoven's "preservation of the traditional formal procedures of his youth. . . . What separated him from the composers of the 1820s was his refusal to alter the fundamental aspects of the stylistic language he had learned as a child, although he expanded the limits of this style in ways that earned him the astonishment and incomprehension of his contemporaries." Using a detailed set of examples, Rosen demonstrates how Beethoven "rejected no part of the eighteenth-century tradition."

For a useful contrasting (though to my mind less persuasive) discussion of the relation of certain features of Beethoven's reputation and musical personality to the new Romanticism, see Maynard Solomon's "Beethoven: Beyond Classicism" in Winter and Martin's Beethoven Quartet Companion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on April 21, 2015, 08:18:48 AM
I have to check whether my German translation of Rosen's book already contains this addition (but I seem to remember that this point is clearly made in what I read, no matter if this is included). I have the quartet companion and IIRC, Solomon points out that, partly following Rosen's lead the "mainstream" of the last 40 years places Beethoven firmly in the classical tradition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on April 21, 2015, 08:44:05 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 18, 2015, 12:17:52 AM
My hypothesis about the key characteristics is that they existed in older tuning systems and affected many of the wind instruments still in Mozart's and Beethoven's time. So they have a vague and weak basis in objective features (like the open strings of the violin) but most of it comes from later tradition because of prominent works in the key, like Beethoven's 5th symphony for all those c minor -> major per aspera ad astra pieces.

First of all, I think we all recognize the above-mentioned CD blurb as patently ridiculous. What is it supposed to mean for a key to be "spirited" or "divine?" It almost seems like an experiment by the author: how absurdly would I have to write for MSR to not use it?

But more generally I think the idea of characteristics of keys is interesting.

In the context of string instruments, the key can affect the sound, but it would be hard to generalize that into an adjective. Maybe a specifically sound-related word like "resonant" -- I'm thinking of the Bach Chaconne, but even then, it would be more accurate to say that d minor is conducive to resonance, than to say "d minor is resonant." The piece still had to be written (and played) in a way that brings that out.

In the context of an equal-tuned keyboard, the very definition of equal tuning is that each interval is the same regardless of key. The only difference between keys is the pitch, so saying "A Major is cheerful" is sort of like saying "440 is cheerful."

In the context of a keyboard with any unequal tuning, I think it's plausible that different keys have different characteristics. But:
1. The differences are probably subtle, especially for common keys.
2. Any description of any key will also depend on which unequal tuning is used. For example, if somebody says g minor is the key of "discontent" (as in the above link (http://biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm)), that might be valid in one tuning but not another. The difference of intervals in g minor between two tunings might be more than the difference of intervals in one tuning between g minor and d minor.
3. Some of the descriptions will be more apt than others. Calling C Major "pure" seems reasonable in a tuning where C-G is exactly 3:2 and C-E is exactly 5:4. But even in this case, it would not be hard to write music in C Major that would not be described as "pure." IOW the subtle characteristics of a given key in a given tuning might be completely unrecognizable in a piece of music in that key performed with that tuning.

The more I think about it, the flimsier it seems. Maybe it wasn't an interesting topic after all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 21, 2015, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 21, 2015, 08:18:48 AM
I have to check whether my German translation of Rosen's book already contains this addition (but I seem to remember that this point is clearly made in what I read, no matter if this is included). I have the quartet companion and IIRC, Solomon points out that, partly following Rosen's lead the "mainstream" of the last 40 years places Beethoven firmly in the classical tradition.

The chapter from which I quoted was added only in the second edition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 23, 2015, 04:39:44 PM
(http://www.mother-earth-publishing.com/catalog/images/HTCA1007.JPG)



My two discs of Takahiro Sonoda's Evica cycle arrived today.  I'm a big fan of Sonoda's Denon cycle, but I was secretly hoping that this set, recorded much later in the pianist's life, would be in poor sound or that the pianist's technique would have declined so that I would have a reason not to buy the remaining discs.  I listened to chunks of the critical Op 31 sonatas, and now it looks like I will have to buy the rest of the set.  The set is in better sound than the earlier cycle, and Sonoda is in fine form. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 25, 2015, 01:00:05 PM
.
[asin]B006UTDG3S[/asin]

[asin]B00LXTM63G[/asin]


Mordecai Shehori (?) appears to be at the beginning of recording and/or releasing a complete cycle, among a very wide assortment of other items.  Anyone familiar with his playing?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on May 25, 2015, 10:12:18 PM
I have his Connassieur(sp) Society CD of Scarlatti, Beethoven (Opus 2, no 3) and Brahms Paganini Variations. Very fine  New York pianist. I don't have any of his more recent recordings on his own label.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 26, 2015, 11:44:24 AM
I have the Scarlatti disc mentioned by OldnSlow which is excellent but not necessarily a recommendation for any Beethoven he might offer.

However, both CDs are on Spotify if you want to preview them (which I am doing right now in the 20 minutes I've got before going out to coach our swimmers). Already the Waldstein shows an interesting approach with a very minimal use of the sustain pedal in places.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: king ubu on May 27, 2015, 07:18:50 AM
So, which Scarlatti would that be, Alessandro or Domenico? The mind sorta boggles either way ... the music of the future, played in the present ... and recorded, too  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 27, 2015, 07:25:40 AM
very probably Domenico. There is some keyboard music by Alessandro but I don't think anyone recorded it on a modern piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2015, 01:04:58 PM
Interview with fortepianist Penelope Crawford (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm) (by me)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 28, 2015, 01:15:07 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 01:04:58 PM
Interview with fortepianist Penelope Crawford (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm) (by me)


No to all 32?   :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on May 28, 2015, 01:36:14 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 28, 2015, 01:15:07 PM

No to all 32?   :'(
At least it wasn't a definite no. :-\
And after the Schumann, I expect there won't be a Crawford disc in some time since she didn't record anything this spring.   :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2015, 01:55:51 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 01:04:58 PM
Interview with fortepianist Penelope Crawford (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm) (by me)

Superb interview, Brian. Did you talk to her in person?

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 23, 2015, 03:33:53 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/088/MI0001088058.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Picked this up yesterday and can't stop listening to it. Such beauty, power and grace! This guy is great. Speaking of Guy, I also picked up Francois Frederic Guy's 3 volumes of Beethoven sonatas. I forget, what you you folks think of his Beethoven?

I also (finally) got Claude Frank's set. And a second copy of Backhaus's stereo set in like new condition, so if anyone wants to buy a copy, PM me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 23, 2015, 04:12:51 PM
Quote from: George on June 23, 2015, 03:33:53 PMI forget, what you you folks think of his Beethoven?



I love Guy's set.  It's one of the best of this century - but not as good as Lucchesini's.   

Between those two and Frank's set, you picked up some seriously good Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 23, 2015, 04:23:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 23, 2015, 04:12:51 PM
I love Guy's set.  It's one of the best of this century - but not as good as Lucchesini's.   

Awesome! Lucchesini's is indeed special.

QuoteBetween those two and Frank's set, you picked up some seriously good Beethoven.

Thanks, I got lucky. Guy's was $36 for the three boxes, new and the other two sets were only $25 used.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 23, 2015, 04:34:25 PM
Now you've got me listening to Lucchesini on Spotify. At least I'm on vacation
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 23, 2015, 04:36:23 PM
I agree with Todd, but FYI Guy's style is very, very different from Lucchesini's. Not "opposite," but, like... a 135-degree angle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 23, 2015, 04:51:16 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2015, 04:36:23 PM
I agree with Todd, but FYI Guy's style is very, very different from Lucchesini's. Not "opposite," but, like... a 135-degree angle.

Happy to hear that! Thanks, Brian!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on June 23, 2015, 05:07:02 PM
Any thoughts on Andre de Groote?

[asin]B001PVWXIU[/asin]

I haven't heard his set; but will listen soon since it is on Spotify.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on June 24, 2015, 01:53:17 AM
I sampled a few sonatas from Guy's set, but what I heard didn't appeal to me at all. Curious to hear Lucchesini.

I own Kempff stereo, Backhaus stereo, Gulda Amadeo, and Brautigam as full sets, along with several individual discs by Pollini, Uchida, Rubinstein (which I love, shame he didn't do a full set), Richter, and Levitt. Annie Fischer and Gilels are on my wishlist, but I'm still looking for a great contemporary (post 2000) non-HIP set. Any suggestions? Lewis bores me, Guy's style doesn't suit me. I liked what I've heard from Pienaar's recordings. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on June 24, 2015, 04:42:17 AM
Todd, I found your comments about De Groote, but do you know about this: Aquiles Delle Vigne just finished the complete recording of the 32 Piano Sonatas by Beethoven.

[asin]B002ZZEDXS[/asin]

His CV (http://www.aquilesdellevigne.net/biography.htm) is not shabby.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 24, 2015, 05:40:16 AM
Quote from: betterthanfine on June 24, 2015, 01:53:17 AMbut I'm still looking for a great contemporary (post 2000) non-HIP set.


Lucchesini
Pienaar
Barenboim III
Takacs
Kikuchi



Quote from: sanantonio on June 24, 2015, 04:42:17 AM
Todd, I found your comments about De Groote, but do you know about this: Aquiles Delle Vigne just finished the complete recording of the 32 Piano Sonatas by Beethoven.


Never heard of him.  I will have to do some hunting for all the discs.  Amazon US doesn't list them all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on June 24, 2015, 05:55:37 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 24, 2015, 05:40:16 AM

Lucchesini
Pienaar
Barenboim III
Takacs
Kikuche

Thanks for that! I'm allergic to Barenboim in general, and what I've heard from his previous two cycles did not impress me at all, so I'll probably skip this one... But I'll sample the others you mention.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on June 24, 2015, 06:39:44 AM
Jonathan Biss is about half way through his complete cycle - worth hearing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 25, 2015, 06:54:16 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51baMEnLVkL.jpg)

I am listening to another new (to me) cycle of Beethoven sonatas. As expected, Guy is clearly inferior to Lucchesini, without offering anything particularly unique, compared to every other set of these works that I have heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 25, 2015, 07:02:00 PM
As much as I like FFG, you are right that Lucchesini is an artist who truly offers something new/different. In fact, with about 45 minutes left in my day, I can think of no better use for them than a couple of Lucchesini sonatas. Thank you for the inspiration!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 25, 2015, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 25, 2015, 07:02:00 PM
As much as I like FFG, you are right that Lucchesini is an artist who truly offers something new/different. In fact, with about 45 minutes left in my day, I can think of no better use for them than a couple of Lucchesini sonatas. Thank you for the inspiration!

My pleasure, Brian! Enjoy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 26, 2015, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: George on June 23, 2015, 03:33:53 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/088/MI0001088058.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Picked this up yesterday and can't stop listening to it. Such beauty, power and grace! This guy is great. Speaking of Guy, I also picked up Francois Frederic Guy's 3 volumes of Beethoven sonatas. I forget, what you you folks think of his Beethoven?

I also (finally) got Claude Frank's set. And a second copy of Backhaus's stereo set in like new condition, so if anyone wants to buy a copy, PM me.


Could you do me a favor (or Brian) and check for me if the earliest recorded sonata in that set is from 1999 or some other year, instead?

Thanks much - jfl
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Wanderer on June 26, 2015, 01:35:05 AM
Quote from: George on June 25, 2015, 06:54:16 PM
I am listening to another new (to me) cycle of Beethoven sonatas. As expected, Guy is clearly inferior to Lucchesini, without offering anything particularly unique, compared to every other set of these works that I have heard.

My sentiments exactly. And in case you were planning to,  don't bother with Bavouzet, he's even worse.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 26, 2015, 03:46:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 26, 2015, 12:46:52 AM

Could you do me a favor (or Brian) and check for me if the earliest recorded sonata in that set is from 1999 or some other year, instead?

Thanks much - jfl

1999 is the earliest, 2001 the latest. Copyrighted in 2003.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 26, 2015, 04:34:46 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 26, 2015, 01:35:05 AM
My sentiments exactly. And in case you were planning to,  don't bother with Bavouzet, he's even worse.
I wasn't keen on Bavouzet either. Quotes from what I wrote for MusicWeb:

"Bavouzet plays Beethoven like Cary Grant does movies: a smooth cosmopolitan who remains unruffled....Bavouzet is a little more restrained than his reputation lets on. The funeral march in Op. 26 is cold, appropriately you might say, and when I listened to his readings for an hour straight, everything started to feel mechanical. If you think Cary Grant is a little aloof at times, well, that's here too."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 26, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 26, 2015, 04:34:46 AM
If you think Cary Grant is a little aloof at times . . . .

I didn't think he was aloof in His Girl Friday.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 04:46:33 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 26, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
I didn't think he was aloof in His Girl Friday.

Nor in Arsenic and Old Lace   ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 04:47:57 AM
Admirably level-headed (though not actually cosmopolitan) in People Will Talk.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 26, 2015, 05:11:22 AM
Quote from: George on June 26, 2015, 03:46:56 AM
1999 is the earliest, 2001 the latest. Copyrighted in 2003.

Thank  you!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 26, 2015, 06:00:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 26, 2015, 05:11:22 AM
Thank  you!

It's the least I can do. I used your Ionarts piece to chronologically organize my Beethoven sets last night.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 26, 2015, 06:03:00 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 25, 2015, 07:02:00 PM
As much as I like FFG, you are right that Lucchesini is an artist who truly offers something new/different.

Beauty, grace, power, forward momentum, excitement, great sound, consistency and perfect tempo choices.....his set has it all!

I need to hear it again, but his set might be my new favorite.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 06:03:15 AM
Quote from: George on June 26, 2015, 06:00:18 AM
It's the least I can do. I used your Ionarts piece to chronologically organize my Beethoven sets last night.

Another reason to love our GMG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 26, 2015, 06:03:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2015, 04:47:57 AM
Admirably level-headed (though not actually cosmopolitan) in People Will Talk.

Where the sidekick character Mr. Shunderson has always seemed to me deliberately made up to look like Anton Bruckner.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 06:04:40 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 26, 2015, 06:03:23 AM
Where the sidekick character Mr. Shunderson has always seemed to me deliberately made up to look like Anton Bruckner.

Damned if you aren't right!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on June 26, 2015, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: George on June 23, 2015, 03:33:53 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/088/MI0001088058.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Picked this up yesterday and can't stop listening to it. Such beauty, power and grace! This guy is great.

Hi George.  Wondering how you were able to find this?   It is listed Used-Like New for USD 299.99 at amazon usa!

There is an MP3 album though, but I am certain the SQ is not the best, and having to then burn them to disc is not a venture I wish to embark upon.

So perhaps you can point me in the right direction?

BTW, I listened to a youtube version of his playing the slow movement of op. 106.  Magnificent, in all regards!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 26, 2015, 08:39:38 AM
Quote from: merlin on June 26, 2015, 07:32:25 AM
Hi George.  Wondering how you were able to find this?   It is listed Used-Like New for USD 299.99 at amazon usa!

I know, I found a used copy this week for $25. I was very lucky. Didn't even know how much it was worth at the time I bought it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 26, 2015, 11:36:13 AM
Quote from: George on June 26, 2015, 06:00:18 AM
It's the least I can do. I used your Ionarts piece to chronologically organize my Beethoven sets last night.

;D Very happy to have been of service!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 26, 2015, 12:00:42 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 26, 2015, 11:36:13 AM
;D Very happy to have been of service!

I will say, I wince every time I read your blurb about Annie Fischer, as I feel at this point her set has risen above cult status.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on June 28, 2015, 09:05:25 AM
All of Andrea Lucchesini's sonata recordings are available on youtube.  Although, unfortunately, each entry is only one movement, I can download them to my computer for easier listening.  Definitely NOT CD quality, though!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 28, 2015, 10:46:26 AM
Quote from: merlin on June 28, 2015, 09:05:25 AM
All of Andreas Lucchesini's sonata recordings are available on youtube.  Although, unfortunately, each entry is only one movement, I can download them to my computer for easier listening.  Definitely NOT CD quality, though!

They are also available on Spotify and as their premium service is 320 kb/s you get very good sound quality.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on June 28, 2015, 10:49:32 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 28, 2015, 10:46:26 AM
They are also available on Spotify and as their premium service is 320 kb/s you get very good sound quality.

Are they downloadable, or only streaming?

The mp3 album is available at amazon, but I do not know if that can be downloaded in any form other than one movement at a time.

I almost always burn downloads to disc for ease in listening.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 28, 2015, 11:19:48 PM
Only streaming unfortunately. If you can find an MP3 in 320 kb/s then you might as well go for it. I can't hear the difference between that and a CD unless the CD is one that has outstanding sound quality. There might also be downloadable FLAC versions out there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 29, 2015, 02:37:30 AM
You can download Lucchesini at 192 on darkmp3.  I must say, my ears are crap and, for solo piano, that's all I need.

Talking of which though, I've been listening to the Gulda Spielt Beethoven Box Set (the 2006 remastering of the Amadeo Set) and the sound really does sound so much better (to me anyway)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 29, 2015, 02:40:34 AM

That's the link.  I think all the tracks are there (which is not always the case on Dark MP3).  You can also get the complete Sherman, etc etc.

We have no objection to anyone doing whatever they please in the way of flouting copyright laws, but there are liability issues involved in assisting people to do it, which we don't wish to undertake. Please don't post links to illegal download sites publicly.

Thanks,
GB
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on June 29, 2015, 03:55:06 AM
Seems to me at the very least people should pay for music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on June 29, 2015, 04:49:37 AM
I spent about 5 thousand dollars a year on CDs.  How much do you spend?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 29, 2015, 05:27:52 AM
Quote from: Fred on June 29, 2015, 04:49:37 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 29, 2015, 03:55:06 AM
Seems to me at the very least people should pay for music.
I spent about 5 thousand dollars a year on CDs.  How much do you spend?

I'm not sure that that's the logically neatest defense to mount.

Perhaps a utilitarian argument COULD be made that the customer who steals only 5% of his rolls on his visits to bakeries, but spends altogether 5000 doubloons on baked goods, is of greater service to the industry of roll-makers, than the customer who steals nothing but consumes rolls worth only 500 properly paid doubloons, annually. But neither Kant, nor the baker being at the short end of that 5%-stick will find it particularly compelling, I reckon... nor would it fly with a judge when caught roll-handed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2015, 06:44:56 AM
With the help of Jens's Ionarts Beethoven project, I have at last ordered a new copy of the Backhaus Beethoven sonatas!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 29, 2015, 07:54:20 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 29, 2015, 03:55:06 AM
Seems to me at the very least people should pay for music.

Yes, but who is being paid? Should I pay an inflated $300 for a used copy that the original buyer likely bought for less than $100, when in fact no additional royalties are going to the artist, the engineer, the album-notes writer, the CD-package designer, the record company, etc.? And what if all I want are the digital files, in whatever format (WAV, MP3, FLAC) I prefer? If the company produces only so many sets and won't make any more due to poor sales, wouldn't it be in the company's best interest to let me buy a set of downloaded files? I'm not saying such a step would eliminate piracy, because it's always fun for a pirate to try to get away with stealing, but I think if more companies would acknowledge the gap and just allowed a willing user to purchase the files for a reasonable price, your objection would largely be met.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 29, 2015, 08:02:21 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 29, 2015, 07:54:20 AM
Yes, but who is being paid? Should I pay an inflated $300 for a used copy that the original buyer likely bought for less than $100,
Can confirm: I got a new copy for under $40 when the box set was originally released.

Books are not music, of course, but I had an advisor in graduate school who said she wished that her publisher would post all her out-of-print books (which are numerous) online as PDFs, for free for anybody who wants to download them. "That way at least people will still read them!"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 29, 2015, 08:31:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 29, 2015, 08:02:21 AM
Can confirm: I got a new copy for under $40 when the box set was originally released.

Books are not music, of course, but I had an advisor in graduate school who said she wished that her publisher would post all her out-of-print books (which are numerous) online as PDFs, for free for anybody who wants to download them. "That way at least people will still read them!"

The problem applies to all the arts, and to the visual arts perhaps above all. But staying with music and books for the moment, which are almost always produced in multiple copies, once a copy is originally sold, it can be legally resold by the original buyer at whatever price is asked and met. And yet to the publisher and whoever else would have gotten royalties, this accrues no additional income, so I can see no greater objection to "illegal" downloads than to used copies being bought and sold.

And in this electronic age, digital music files and MS Word or PDF copies of books are infinitely reproducible. In the visual arts, an even greater problem is created in that many paintings and sculptures are one of a kind, or often (as with lithographs, prints, and even some sculptures) in limited editions. I have seen photographs and prints where the edition has been limited to as few as three copies. But after the original sale if the artwork appreciates (which means only that people are willing to pay more for it), it can be resold on the after-market with no benefit to the artist or gallerist. I remember a little sculpture I wanted that was originally made in an edition of 100 selling for $100 each; unfortunately I didn't act fast enough, but a few years later I saw a copy on eBay for $700. And then I certainly didn't act.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 29, 2015, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 29, 2015, 08:02:21 AM
Can confirm: I got a new copy for under $40 when the box set was originally released.

And there is nothing (other than your sense of legality and conscience) that would preclude you from ripping all those CDs to lossless or lossy files using a tool like Exact Audio Copy, and giving or selling those files to whoever you choose and whatever price or not you wish. (Not that I'm asking; I have his 14/29 disc, and being you might say the anti-Todd the last thing I want is yet another copy of the Beethoven sonatas. I'd rather sit at the piano and open the book.) My point is just to illustrate that in practical terms, there is no limitation on the number of potential copies of the material. Digital storage changes everything.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on June 29, 2015, 09:35:31 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 28, 2015, 11:19:48 PM
Only streaming unfortunately. If you can find an MP3 in 320 kb/s then you might as well go for it. I can't hear the difference between that and a CD unless the CD is one that has outstanding sound quality. There might also be downloadable FLAC versions out there.
amazon digital music is VBR, at most 256 kbps, and therefore not much better than youtube.  If I could find a set at 320 kbps, I would jump on it.  Same for a reasonably-priced used copy (e.g. not USD 230!).

No torrents for at least 16/44 flacs exist, afaik.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 29, 2015, 09:46:05 AM
Quote from: merlin on June 28, 2015, 09:05:25 AM
All of Andrea Lucchesini's sonata recordings are available on youtube.  Although, unfortunately, each entry is only one movement, I can download them to my computer for easier listening.  Definitely NOT CD quality, though!

You can get this from googleplay in good quality mp3.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on June 29, 2015, 10:32:48 AM
Quote from: Fred on June 29, 2015, 02:37:30 AM
You can download Lucchesini at 192 on darkmp3.  I must say, my ears are crap and, for solo piano, that's all I need.

Talking of which though, I've been listening to the Gulda Spielt Beethoven Box Set (the 2006 remastering of the Amadeo Set) and the sound really does sound so much better (to me anyway)

Thanks for the link, but the download option did not work for me.  And 192 is clearly no better than youtube, and probably worse!

The Gulda set has generally excellent sound, but I mostly find his playing to be much too fast to evoke the feelings and responses of Lucchesini's interpretations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2015, 10:57:57 AM
Quote from: George on June 29, 2015, 06:44:56 AM
With the help of Jens's Ionarts Beethoven project, I have at last ordered a new copy of the Backhaus Beethoven sonatas!

Does his website sell that set and others?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2015, 11:18:17 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 29, 2015, 10:57:57 AM
Does his website sell that set and others?

Nope, but it links to places where you can buy stuff.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on June 29, 2015, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 29, 2015, 10:57:57 AM
Does his website sell that set and others?

FYI, here it is (the first part, which links to all the subsequent parts):


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 1, 1935 - 1969


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2015, 02:23:22 PM
Regardless of any or all moral arguments, this forum cannot be complicit in aiding or abetting illegal downloads. It is the forum owner who assumes that liability, not the poster. And even if he wants to assume it (he doesn't), I won't let him. So, let's just not do this publicly, if you all please.

GB
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 29, 2015, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2015, 02:23:22 PM
Regardless of any or all moral arguments, this forum cannot be complicit in aiding or abetting illegal downloads. It is the forum owner who assumes that liability, not the poster. And even if he wants to assume it (he doesn't), I won't let him. So, let's just not do this publicly, if you all please.

GB

For those as wants their Lucchesini as legal downloadable files, try here:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Stradivarius/STR33669#download

You have a choice of MP3 or FLAC, but still the prices for the entire album are high ($80 for MP3s and $112 for FLACS). For most of the "songs," you can buy individual tracks, but for the longer songs like the variations from 111, you have to buy the entire album. You can also buy the songs from iTunes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on June 29, 2015, 04:32:22 PM
MP3s are less than $50 from Amazon US

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JKRuqe9pL._SS280.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Complete-sonatas/dp/B00KAYUZMY/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1435624212&sr=1-1&keywords=Lucchesini+beethoven)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 29, 2015, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 29, 2015, 04:32:22 PM
MP3s are less than $50 from Amazon US

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JKRuqe9pL._SS280.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Complete-sonatas/dp/B00KAYUZMY/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1435624212&sr=1-1&keywords=Lucchesini+beethoven)

Am I alone in thinking that all downloads should be lossless? That way, you convert to the format of your choice. Storage is no longer an issue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on June 29, 2015, 05:27:49 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 29, 2015, 04:32:22 PM
MP3s are less than $50 from Amazon US

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JKRuqe9pL._SS280.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Complete-sonatas/dp/B00KAYUZMY/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1435624212&sr=1-1&keywords=Lucchesini+beethoven)

Yes, but as I wrote earlier, they are no more than 256 kbps.  Rather poor SQ, to my ears, even compared with 320 kbps mp3s, let alone CDs and 16/44 flacs.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 30, 2015, 12:21:56 PM
The other thing to be aware of is that the quality of the original material uploaded to whoever is providing the digital download will affect the quality. This is certainly so with older material supplied by iTunes and I suspect by other providers as well. This therefore makes a FLAC download a no brainer. The iTunes AAC 256kb/s  file is going for over $200 so maybe they're not the best option for that and the reason listed above.

This leads to another thought. My ISP gives me 100 gigs a month in download/upload allowance. How much of that would the 16/44.1 FLAC download chew through? How long would it take at 35 Mb/s?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 30, 2015, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 30, 2015, 12:21:56 PM
This leads to another thought. My ISP gives me 100 gigs a month in download/upload allowance. How much of that would the 16/44.1 FLAC download chew through? How long would it take at 35 Mb/s?
About 2 GB (depending on how the files were encoded) and... hard to predict. My ISP claims to offer 8-10 MB/s, but a single CD in FLAC (~300 MB) generally takes 15-30 minutes to download from Qobuz or eClassical. (Never tried Presto's download service.)

I should note that for piano music, due to the relative lack of higher frequencies, a well-encoded MP3 of sufficient bitrate (256kbps+) should be close to indistinguishable from lossless—at least according to the spectra.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on June 30, 2015, 01:44:04 PM
Quote from: amw on June 30, 2015, 01:02:18 PM
I should note that for piano music, due to the relative lack of higher frequencies, a well-encoded MP3 of sufficient bitrate (256kbps+) should be close to indistinguishable from lossless—at least according to the spectra.

Not too certain of this, sad to say.  A piano has LOTS of overtones that are easily lost with any kind of compression.  But of course it depends totally upon the original recordings/masters, and the acuteness of the listener's hearing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2015, 02:55:40 PM
(http://s30.postimg.org/617z1u7gh/IMG_20150630_175423.jpg)

My copy of the 1992 Decca Japanese issue of the Backhaus mono set arrived today. It has a different mastering than the 2002 Italian issue of the same performances:

(http://s17.postimg.org/ca0i6rvrj/made_in_2002.jpg)

The Japan issue sounds better, as it has more high frequency information.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 30, 2015, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2015, 02:55:40 PMThe Japan issue sounds better, as it has more high frequency information.



Dammit, you were suppose to write that they sound the same.  I don't want to spend $90 bucks to replace my current set . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 30, 2015, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2015, 03:02:34 PMDammit, you were suppose to write that they sound the same.  I don't want to spend $90 bucks to replace my current set . . .

Haha! It's not a night a day difference. I'd say if you think the Italian set sounds muffled, get the Japanese one. If it doesn't, don't bother.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidA on June 30, 2015, 10:13:32 PM
A great set of which I have acquired most second hand is by the Hungarian great Annie Fischer. Wonderfully poetic performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 01, 2015, 11:22:14 AM
Quote from: George on June 30, 2015, 03:09:40 PM
Haha! It's not a night a day difference. I'd say if you think the Italian set sounds muffled, get the Japanese one. If it doesn't, don't bother.

Being in Todd´s situation, I shall take this ad notam and save my money for something else.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 01, 2015, 12:56:17 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 01, 2015, 11:22:14 AM
Being in Todd´s situation, I shall take this ad notam and save my money for something else.

Wise man. If I were as rational as you, I'd have a nice savings account right now.  $:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 12:02:08 AM

Serkin Question:

Does anyone know to what extent this box:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71iqL3trbyL._SX522_.jpg)
Rudolf Serkin plays Beethoven concertos, sonatas & variations (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008CG1HPQ/goodmusicguide-20)


...duplicates this box:

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B_Xtln0j55s/VZRz0reJGDI/AAAAAAAAIWI/2GiBf_ZXzNM/s1600/Beethoven_Survey_Rudolf_SERKIN_SONY-unpublished_Beethoven-Edition_jens-f-laurson_ionarts.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)
Serkin Unreleased Studio Recordings (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002A8G/goodmusicguide-20)

?

I've read a review that sonatas Nos. 1, 6, 12, 13 "Sonata quasi una fantasia" and 16 from this set were, in fact, new to the Serkin discography... which suggests that they have all been taken on into the new set... as has 110, which shows up in two versions on the new box. But the rest (Nos. 6, 21 (Waldstein), 30, and 32) do not... which means what?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 02, 2015, 02:01:25 AM
I cannot double check this because the newish (spartan) box is all I have but on this new box it says october 1970 for op.10/2, december 1962 for op.13, september 1975 for op.53, March 1967 for op.111 and  june 1976 for op.109

I certainly would have preferred alternative versions for some of the sonatas (as far as they exist, there is also a mono op.13 e.g.) to two versions of the choral fantasia (one of which I already had) and the triple concerto...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 02:17:33 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 02, 2015, 02:01:25 AM
I cannot double check this because the newish (spartan) box is all I have but on this new box it says october 1970 for op.10/2, december 1962 for op.13, september 1975 for op.53, March 1967 for op.111 and  june 1976 for op.109

I certainly would have preferred alternative versions for some of the sonatas (as far as they exist, there is also a mono op.13 e.g.) to two versions of the choral fantasia (one of which I already had) and the triple concerto...

I know that the new, bare-bones set has excluded mono-versions wherever a stereo re-make existed... which I believe is *every* incidence. But if/where two stereo-remakes existed, I don't know if they put both on (such as with op.110) and that therefore it goes to reason that every recording that was in stereo on the "Unpublished" set is necessarily included on this set, too, or not.

Meanwhile, thanks much for your information which will be greatly helpful if we now can have someone compare those dates with the dates on their "Unpublished" set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 02, 2015, 03:34:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 02:17:33 AM
I know that the new, bare-bones set has excluded mono-versions wherever a stereo re-make existed... which I believe is *every* incidence. But if/where two stereo-remakes existed, I don't know if they put both on (such as with op.110) and that therefore it goes to reason that every recording that was in stereo on the "Unpublished" set is necessarily included on this set, too, or not.

Meanwhile, thanks much for your information which will be greatly helpful if we now can have someone compare those dates with the dates on their "Unpublished" set.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q7SuT%2BijL.jpg)

Serkin - The Unreleased Studio Recordings
- Except where noted, all sonatas were recorded at Columbia Records 30th Street Studio, New York City.
- Those sonatas with an asterisk were new to the Serkin discography when this set came out in 1994.

Op. 2/1 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 10/2 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 26 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 27/1 - December 7, 1970 *
Op. 31/1 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 53 - September 24-26, 1975 (recorded at Guilford, Vermont)
Op. 109 - June 8, 1976
Op. 110 - August 28, 1960 (recorded at Marlboro, Vermont (and the best Op. 110 I have ever heard))
Op. 111 - March 15-16, 1967
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 05:36:03 AM
Quote from: George on July 02, 2015, 03:34:49 AM

Serkin - The Unreleased Studio Recordings
- Except where noted, all sonatas were recorded at Columbia Records 30th Street Studio, New York City.
- Those sonatas with an asterisk were new to the Serkin discography when this set came out in 1994.

Op. 2/1 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 10/2 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 26 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 27/1 - December 7, 1970 *
Op. 31/1 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 53 - September 24-26, 1975 (recorded at Guilford, Vermont)
Op. 109 - June 8, 1976
Op. 110 - August 28, 1960 (recorded at Marlboro, Vermont (and the best Op. 110 I have ever heard))
Op. 111 - March 15-16, 1967

THANKS MUCH. I've since been able to determine that in fact all of these takes were put in the latest and the second-to-last (White "Columbia") Serkin LvB Sonata Collection. Allegedly the sound processing on the Masters boxes is crap, but I haven't got it. The set above, I think I've got... but I've been separated from it for a decade.  :( It's somewhere in a garage in Virginia.

Meanwhile I've been busy at work with the 11th (!) installment of the Beethoven Survey!


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
The Great Incomplete Cycles



http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Which ones have I missed? What data did I get wrong?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 02, 2015, 05:54:05 AM
I have not even listened through he whole Serkin box and I gave away the two single discs (Diabellis+ Bagatelles and an "Esprit" with some early sonatas) I had before. But I am pretty sure that they did not do any remastering and just took the newest remasterings they had anyway, put them on discs and those in a bare bones cardboard box.

As you mention Gould in the survey, the best way there is probably to get the "white" Gould edition Sony boxes which are two volumes, and two more for concertos and variations/bagatelles. I do not have the op.106/78 separate disc but I heard it years ago before it was officially released on pirate disc and then again at a friend's and I think this is skippable.
Gould's best Beethoven in my opinion are the concerti 1+2 (among my favorites ever and 3+4 are not too bad either), the variations (again my favorites of these works) and bagatelles and op.10 and op.31, despite some crazy tempi. (There are crazy tempi and mannerisms elsewhere but they do not always work so well.)

BTW the first piano concerto with Gould is conducted by Golschmann, not Bernstein.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 06:29:39 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 02, 2015, 05:54:05 AM
As you mention Gould in the survey, the best way there is probably to get the "white" Gould edition Sony boxes which are two volumes...

Is there an advantage of those over the newer six-disc box?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 02, 2015, 06:45:09 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 05:36:03 AM
THANKS MUCH. I've since been able to determine that in fact all of these takes were put in the latest and the second-to-last (White "Columbia") Serkin LvB Sonata Collection.

Actually, the white box omits the (IMO preferable) 1960 Op. 110
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 02, 2015, 06:56:01 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 06:29:39 AM
Is there an advantage of those over the newer six-disc box?

Probably not. I had simply forgotten about the newer box. It might save space.

As some of the "Columbia" CDs sound rather bad it is usually better to go at least for the "white" Gould edition or newer. I do not know if newer boxes have different remastering, there are so many Gould editions that probably nobody knows... I have a few singles (e.g. Beethoven bagatelles) on newer discs (with the original LP covers) but mostly the white ones. The only "Columbia" I have is the WTK (because all of it on 3 disc instead two separate volumes), the Mozart sonatas (because I got them used rather cheaply) and the Beethoven variations (for sentimental reasons as this was probably among the first 20-30 CDs I bought as a teenager).

Like the WTK some of the Columbia discs do have more convenient packaging (e.g. all French Suites on one disc).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 02, 2015, 07:54:57 PM
The 11 CD RS Plays B Sony budget box released in 2012 uses all the performances in the Unpublished box, plus  a 1971 performance of Op. 110.  The only other duplication involves PC4.

What set is the White Box?

( will cross post this to the Serkin thread)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 05:30:38 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 02, 2015, 07:54:57 PM
The 11 CD RS Plays B Sony budget box released in 2012 uses all the performances in the Unpublished box, plus  a 1971 performance of Op. 110.  The only other duplication involves PC4.

What set is the White Box?

( will cross post this to the Serkin thread)

The "Columbia Legends" box. (As listed in the "Survey" piece, if you care to take a look.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 03, 2015, 05:38:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 05:36:03 AM
Meanwhile I've been busy at work with the 11th (!) installment of the Beethoven Survey!


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
The Great Incomplete Cycles



http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Which ones have I missed? What data did I get wrong?

Arrau "0" actually contains 11 sonatas. For EMI from 1947-1960 Arrau recorded Beethoven sonatas number 7(twice
'51 & '57), 14, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28, 31 and 32. 7 (1957) and 24 are included in the ICON box.

The EMI recordings were intended to be a set, until Arrau was dropped by EMI. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 05:59:19 AM
Quote from: George on July 03, 2015, 05:38:30 AM
Arrau "0" actually contains 11 sonatas. For EMI from 1947-1960 Arrau recorded Beethoven sonatas number 7(twice
'51 & '57), 14, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28, 31 and 32. 7 (1957) and 24 are included in the ICON box.

The EMI recordings were intended to be a set, until Arrau was dropped by EMI.

Bawk bawk BAAAAWK?!?!?!

My set has LIED to me?

Only "Nos. 7 & 24" are included in the Icon-Box? Or 7 & 24 are ONLY included in the Icon Box? (Ah, I see: The two that I am missing in my "Beethoven Edition Set" are on Icon.
Strange, not to have included them in that older set.

Will amend!

Still, there's no more complete a set, for now, of his HMV Beethoven, than the one I listed, right?


OH... now I see entirely. Both sets contain NINE sonatas, and both sets contain two sonatas that the other DOESN'T contain.

Who makes such decisions?



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 03, 2015, 06:11:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 05:59:19 AM
Only "Nos. 7 & 24" are included in the Icon-Box? Or 7 & 24 are ONLY included in the Icon Box? (Ah, I see: The two that I am missing in my "Beethoven Edition Set" are on Icon.)

Correct.

QuoteStrange, not to have included them in that older set.

Agreed. Also strange is that the ICON set omits Arrau's EMI recordings of sonatas 14 and 18, found in the earlier EMI set. So if one wants the entire EMI set, they need to track down both sets.

Then there's Arrau's Waldstein and Les Adieux recordings made in 1947 and 1949 for Columbia, from a box set released on United Archives and titled The Birth Of A Legend.

QuoteStill, there's no more complete a set, for now, of his HMV Beethoven, than the one I listed, right?

Correct.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 03, 2015, 06:15:02 AM
Arrau also recorded sonatas 8, 14, 23, 26 and 29 for American Decca in 1954. These were released as part of The Liszt Legacy on DG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 03, 2015, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: George on July 03, 2015, 05:38:30 AM
Arrau "0" actually contains 11 sonatas. For EMI from 1947-1960 Arrau recorded Beethoven sonatas number 7(twice
'51 & '57), 14, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28, 31 and 32. 7 (1957) and 24 are included in the ICON box.

The EMI recordings were intended to be a set, until Arrau was dropped by EMI.

Quote from: George on July 03, 2015, 06:15:02 AM
Arrau also recorded sonatas 8, 14, 23, 26 and 29 for American Decca in 1954. These were released as part of The Liszt Legacy on DG.

This adds two sonatas not recorded for EMI, 29 and 8. So if one were constructing an early Arrau (incomplete) cycle, they'd be able to get 13 from 1947-1960.

7, 8, 14, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28, 29, 31 and 32

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on July 03, 2015, 06:55:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 05:30:38 AM
The "Columbia Legends" box. (As listed in the "Survey" piece, if you care to take a look.)

Thank you.
There is a typo in your Serkin discussion....Op. 110 lost a digit and became one of the early sonatas.

BTW,  am I correct in understanding both Gilels boxes you show to have the exact same contents?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 06:57:22 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 03, 2015, 06:55:12 AM
Thank you.
There is a typo in your Serkin discussion....Op. 110 lost a digit and became one of the early sonatas.

BTW,  am I correct in understanding both Gilels boxes you show to have the exact same contents?

1.) Thanks - Great! Better for op.110 to have lost a digit, than Serkin.
2.) Indeed.
3.) All your excellent, most helpful information has now been lifted and plagiarized and is part of the updated Arrau section!  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 03, 2015, 07:22:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 06:57:22 AM
3.) All your excellent, most helpful information has now been lifted and plagiarized and is part of the updated Arrau section!  ;)

Was this meant for me?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 10:23:56 AM
Quote from: George on July 03, 2015, 07:22:53 AM
Was this meant for me?

Most certainly. As you will see, if you read the addendum on the site to the Arrau "9 + 2".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jfdrex on July 03, 2015, 11:33:31 AM
I'm very pleased to see Bruce Hungerford's Beethoven sonata recordings (Vanguard) listed in Jens's survey of "unfinished"/incomplete cycles.  As it happens, I've just purchased this 2-disc set and have been listening to it repeatedly, with immense enjoyment, during the past week:

[asin]B0001CCX9I[/asin]

I can't recommend it highly enough.  And that goes doubly for this installment:

[asin]B0000AGWEB[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on July 03, 2015, 11:51:20 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on July 03, 2015, 11:33:31 AM
I'm very pleased to see Bruce Hungerford's Beethoven sonata recordings (Vanguard) listed in Jens's survey of "unfinished"/incomplete cycles.  As it happens, I've just purchased this 2-disc set and have been listening to it repeatedly, with immense enjoyment, during the past week:

[asin]B0001CCX9I[/asin]

I can't recommend it highly enough.  And that goes doubly for this installment:

[asin]B0000AGWEB[/asin]

+1! *Pound le Table!*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 03, 2015, 01:25:08 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 10:23:56 AM
Most certainly. As you will see, if you read the addendum on the site to the Arrau "9 + 2".

Ok, thanks. I thought you were confusing the two avatars with hands photographed in black and white.

Glad to help, Jens!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2015, 02:29:07 PM
Quote from: George on July 03, 2015, 01:25:08 PM
Ok, thanks. I thought you were confusing the two avatars with hands photographed in black and white.

Glad to help, Jens!

Not at all. Todd's help is also much appreciated, but I feel  you help with an 'easier heart'.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 06, 2015, 04:58:34 PM
(http://pxhst.co/avaxhome/02/03/000e0302_medium.jpeg)

Those who wish to hear Annie Fischer's set of the Beethoven Sonatas can now own the set in mp3 form for only $9.99.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9039500
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 24, 2015, 02:38:09 PM
Today in "how is my life this good": pianist James Brawn just sent me ALL FOUR of his completed Beethoven volumes, for MusicWeb.

How did I get this gig again?  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 28, 2015, 01:58:17 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
First, Jens, he recorded the Mono Beethoven when he was 65 to 70 I think. I don't believe he went gaga or feeble. Is there a loss of technque?  I don't know, I don't much care about technique. What he has is good enough for me.

I have been thinking about this today.
For the mono set, recorded 1950-54, Backhaus was 66 to 70.
For the stereo set, recorded 1958-69 (the year he died), Backhaus was 74 to 85.
So, the difference between the earliest recordings in the mono set and the latest recordings in the stereo set is 19 years. To me, this is not an insignificant amount of time, especially when you consider the stereo was recorded (literally) at the end of his life.

And yes, if you listen to the mono and then the stereo, there is a slight loss of technique. Understandable, I think.

QuoteIt would be interesting to get to the bottom of the differences between the two cycles - anyone fancy exploring it?

What I hear is slightly slower slow movements (thank goodness, for the stereo slow movements tend to be too fast for me) in the mono and as stated above, better technique in the mono.

Another difference is that the sound on the stereo is excellent, while the sound on mono is merely good. The Japan mono set has slightly better sound (more high frequency info) than the Italian mono set.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on July 28, 2015, 02:30:57 PM
Quote from: George on July 28, 2015, 01:58:17 PM
I have been thinking about this today.
For the mono set, recorded 1950-54, Backhaus was 66 to 70.
For the stereo set, recorded 1958-69 (the year he died), Backhaus was 74 to 85.
So, the difference between the earliest recordings in the mono set and the latest recordings in the stereo set is 19 years. To me, this is not an insignificant amount of time, especially when you consider the stereo was recorded (literally) at the end of his life.

And yes, if you listen to the mono and then the stereo, there is a slight loss of technique. Understandable, I think.

What I hear is slightly slower slow movements (thank goodness, for the stereo slow movements tend to be too fast for me) in the mono and as stated above, better technique in the mono.

Another difference is that the sound on the stereo is excellent, while the sound on mono is merely good. The Japan mono set has slightly better sound (more high frequency info) than the Italian mono set.

Is this the stereo set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/713GpxqVPCL._SX225_.jpg)

What's the mono set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 28, 2015, 02:38:44 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on July 28, 2015, 02:30:57 PM
Is this the stereo set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/713GpxqVPCL._SX225_.jpg)

Yes.

QuoteWhat's the mono set?

This:

(http://s30.postimg.org/617z1u7gh/IMG_20150630_175423.jpg)

1992 Decca Japanese issue of the Backhaus mono set. 


(http://s17.postimg.org/ca0i6rvrj/made_in_2002.jpg)

2002 Italian issue of the same mono set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on July 28, 2015, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: George on July 28, 2015, 02:38:44 PM
Yes.

This:

(http://s30.postimg.org/617z1u7gh/IMG_20150630_175423.jpg)

1992 Decca Japanese issue of the Backhaus mono set. 


(http://s17.postimg.org/ca0i6rvrj/made_in_2002.jpg)

2002 Italian issue of the same mono set.

Thanks.  Looks hard to find, but I'll look. I have the other one so, the mono set might be something to look for.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 28, 2015, 03:23:45 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on July 28, 2015, 02:42:25 PM
Thanks.  Looks hard to find, but I'll look. I have the other one so, the mono set might be something to look for.

You'll find four links on this page to amazon sellers: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on July 28, 2015, 03:29:17 PM
Quote from: George on July 28, 2015, 03:23:45 PM
You'll find four links on this page to amazon sellers: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html

Thanks; I had seen Jen's page and wish-listed the set.  However, Jens is of the opinion that the stereo set is the one to have ...  decisions; decisions.

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 28, 2015, 03:32:33 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on July 28, 2015, 03:29:17 PM
Thanks; I had seen Jen's page and wish-listed the set.  However, Jens is of the opinion that the stereo set is the one to have ...  decisions; decisions.

;)

It's not a huge difference, but I do prefer the mono set across the board.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2015, 11:24:23 AM
Delos has reissued Carol Rosenberger's recording of Op. 109, which previously was available only as part of a children's album (?!). (Must be for unusually smart children.)

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/DE3452.jpg)

I'm listening immediately, both because of the personal connection (she "learned" the piece by listening to it constantly while stricken with polio) and because of the finale's bananas 16:13 track timing. Gotta find out what that's about.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2015, 11:32:20 AM
Oh man...well there is certainly nothing else like this. At 5:30, still on variation #1. I can't tell if this is a hypnotic mad-scientist success or a noble, fascinating failure, but I'm leaning towards noble, fascinating failure. One thing's for sure: Rosenberger does have the touch and coloristic skills to play this slowly without putting you to sleep.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jay F on August 13, 2015, 01:17:09 PM
Quote from: George on July 06, 2015, 04:58:34 PM
(http://pxhst.co/avaxhome/02/03/000e0302_medium.jpeg)

Those who wish to hear Annie Fischer's set of the Beethoven Sonatas can now own the set in mp3 form for only $9.99.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9039500

Thanks, George. I'm downloading and listening now. I like it. And it sounds just fine on my computer, where I listen through B&W MM-1s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on August 31, 2015, 07:10:47 AM
I've been immersing myself in James Brawn's Volumes 1-4 on MSR Classics, to write a review of them. And Brawn keeps impressing me more and more. But it's a very quiet, tame sort of being impressed. Brawn's simply very consistent, and adaptable, and avoids making mistakes. I've only found one interpretive decision to second-guess (in Appassionata's first movement) in the 16 sonatas he has recorded. And, unusually, his booklet notes give genuine insight into why he plays a piece a certain way.

Brawn feels "safe." But not in the traditional sense of "technically correct but boring and uninspired." I mean it in a more positive way: "technically correct, and although rarely unique or remarkable, always very good." As in, you can feel safe putting his CD in.

He doesn't sound much like Wilhelm Kempff, and it would be weird to compare their playing styles, but the impression Brawn gives off, to me, is similar to Kempff: not flashy, not a "big personality," but a reliable guide nevertheless.

This is, obviously, still pretty high praise. And it's weird giving such high praise when I can't point at any one performance and say "that is really, really, really great." But the cumulative effect of thinking "that's pretty darn good" 16 times must work in a similar way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2015, 07:27:51 AM
Quote from: Jay F on August 13, 2015, 01:17:09 PM
Thanks, George. I'm downloading and listening now. I like it. And it sounds just fine on my computer, where I listen through B&W MM-1s.
Is it 320? 256?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2015, 01:30:39 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2015, 07:10:47 AM
I've been immersing myself in James Brawn's Volumes 1-4 on MSR Classics, to write a review of them. And Brawn keeps impressing me more and more. But it's a very quiet, tame sort of being impressed. Brawn's simply very consistent, and adaptable, and avoids making mistakes. I've only found one interpretive decision to second-guess (in Appassionata's first movement) in the 16 sonatas he has recorded. And, unusually, his booklet notes give genuine insight into why he plays a piece a certain way.

Brawn feels "safe." But not in the traditional sense of "technically correct but boring and uninspired." I mean it in a more positive way: "technically correct, and although rarely unique or remarkable, always very good." As in, you can feel safe putting his CD in.

He doesn't sound much like Wilhelm Kempff, and it would be weird to compare their playing styles, but the impression Brawn gives off, to me, is similar to Kempff: not flashy, not a "big personality," but a reliable guide nevertheless.

This is, obviously, still pretty high praise. And it's weird giving such high praise when I can't point at any one performance and say "that is really, really, really great." But the cumulative effect of thinking "that's pretty darn good" 16 times must work in a similar way.

Can you suggest a sonata which particularly shows his best qualities off?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 01, 2015, 04:36:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2015, 01:30:39 AM
Can you suggest a sonata which particularly shows his best qualities off?
I think my favorites of his, so far, may be "Les Adieux" and Op. 78.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on September 01, 2015, 06:23:59 PM
(http://s15.postimg.org/ug1t9ia57/Beethoven_Pn_Sonatas_collection.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2015, 10:10:09 AM
I just finished my second listen to Pletnev's late-1980s Virgin disc. It's eccentric in spots (most notably for me in the finale of the Moonlight, where he downplays the big sfz chords relative to everybody else) but I think it almost always works musically. In several spots I heard long lines more clearly than others. I didn't write down anything specific about the Waldstein but it might be my favorite in that work.

I wish pianists/labels would mix a less-famous work or two into these discs, but for a selection of big-name sonatas, this is pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on November 10, 2015, 12:23:44 AM
Quote from: George on July 28, 2015, 03:32:33 PM
It's not a huge difference, but I do prefer the mono set across the board.

Agreed, on there not being a huge difference. It's both late Backhaus and stylistically very similar. Either way, you'll find yourself subtly delighted, I should think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 10, 2015, 07:11:59 AM
Quote from: Pat B on November 09, 2015, 10:10:09 AM

I didn't write down anything specific about the Waldstein but it might be my favorite in that work.



There was a time when I felt this about the first movement at least, I'm not sure how I'd react if I heard it now. I don't much like middle period Beethoven in fact so I may not be a very good judge.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 10, 2015, 07:29:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 10, 2015, 12:23:44 AM
Agreed, on there not being a huge difference. It's both late Backhaus and stylistically very similar. Either way, you'll find yourself subtly delighted, I should think.

I just wish the one with the great sound (the stereo) was the one with the better performances (the mono.)  :(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on November 11, 2015, 12:22:50 AM
Quote from: George on November 10, 2015, 07:29:15 AM
I just wish the one with the great sound (the stereo) was the one with the better performances (the mono.)  :(

Well, see... there we disagree. I don't think there's a notable drop-off between the two though, granted, I've never done a direct or even approximate comparison between the two sets. Come to think of it... where *is* my stereo set of the Backhaus sonatas, darnit?!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 11, 2015, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 11, 2015, 12:22:50 AM
Well, see... there we disagree. I don't think there's a notable drop-off between the two though, granted, I've never done a direct or even approximate comparison between the two sets.

I wish you would. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I don't even know if I would say it is a drop off, but there is a slight difference of interpretation. The mono sounds less rushed in the slow movements, for example.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on November 11, 2015, 11:50:54 PM
Just bought Ohlsson's complete beethoven sonatas on 7digital for $13 Australian.  Costs $124 on Prestoclassical.  Methinks someone has made a mistake!!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Tannhäuser on November 17, 2015, 12:09:08 AM
I like my Beethoven germanic, poetic and inspired.

Hence : Brendel and Kempff together first, and the rest is almost superfluous.

Still, I recently heard Duchâble's recording of Tempest, Waldstein and Les Adieux and it is really nice, technically spot on with a tad of french "esprit", without betraying Beethoven's dramatic dimension.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on December 28, 2015, 02:10:40 PM
If you go to http://intoclassics.net/news/2015-12-28-39819 you will find the complete live beethoven sonatas in St Petersburg by Peter Laul. Bits I've heard are fantastic. If you look at the comments, one may have been left by Peter Laul!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 29, 2015, 03:39:43 PM
Can't seem to find a download link after translating the page into English
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on December 29, 2015, 06:29:40 PM
DON'T TRANSLATE THE PAGE INTO ENGLISH.  You don't need to.  The download arrow is easy to find in Cyrillic
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on December 29, 2015, 06:35:45 PM
Actually, even when I translate I get the download arrow on the right-hand side of the page (below "Save to Yandex").  Maybe try a different browser. Anyway, good luck. I registered with Yandex years ago, so I don't know if that also affects matters. But if you sort it out, it's free. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on December 29, 2015, 06:52:23 PM
Sorry, brain is still in Christmas mode, where it will stay all year.

This is the download page.  You should see a download button on the right with an arrow

https://yadi.sk/d/IBjeQ929mXk27
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 29, 2015, 07:22:33 PM
Quote from: Fred on December 29, 2015, 06:29:40 PM
DON'T TRANSLATE THE PAGE INTO ENGLISH.  You don't need to.  The download arrow is easy to find in Cyrillic

I just looked and I can't find it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on December 30, 2015, 02:33:54 AM
Guys, I know that site for a long time (intoclassics.net). It's a treasure trove, especially if you can read Russian (I do).

You can even search for what you need. On the left of the page look for the green text Поиск (Russian for search) and then type a composer or performer name in the box below the text по всему сайту (Russian for in the whole site). Hit the Enter key. After the results are retrieved, click the links and then look for the text Ссылка (Russian for link) and go to the web address below it.


Hope this helps.

NB Not all final links are functional.

EDIT I expanded the explanation a bit.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2015, 02:46:02 AM
Click on this, or just go to it now that I've posted it here

https://yadi.sk/d/IBjeQ929mXk27

then click on download

I haven't heard it, and I've never heard of the pianist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 30, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2015, 02:46:02 AM
Click on this, or just go to it now that I've posted it here

https://yadi.sk/d/IBjeQ929mXk27

then click on download

I haven't heard it, and I've never heard of the pianist.

Thanks, downloading now. Never heard it or of the pianist either.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JulieHN on January 02, 2016, 10:43:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 11:53:51 PM
Anyone have any information on an alleged LvB sonata cycle that

Michael Steinberg
has purportedly recorded on "Elysium"?

I cannot find any (!) information to confirm that... which is rare and makes me wary.

It exists! Listening to them right now! Wonderful, brilliant recording! Every detail, very specific, brings out genius of Beethoven. Spectacular. Unfortunately, out of print. But I have both LP AND CD versions! I'M SO LUCKY!

This pianist is not be confused with the other Michael Steinberg. The pianist is a friend of mine and the other I met eons ago!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on January 10, 2016, 03:32:29 PM
Todd- have you ever heard the complete set of Beethoven sonatas (and variations) from a pianist named Steven Herbert Smith ( a prof. emeritus from Penn State), recorded 2009-2012? ARG reviewed them very favorably in in the current issue, so I ordered them from Amazon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2016, 03:35:41 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on January 10, 2016, 03:32:29 PMTodd- have you ever heard the complete set of Beethoven sonatas (and variations) from a pianist named Steven Herbert Smith ( a prof. emeritus from Penn State), recorded 2009-2012? ARG reviewed them very favorably in in the current issue, so I ordered them from Amazon.


I've never heard of the pianist or the recording.  I know what my next purchase is, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on January 10, 2016, 06:19:04 PM
They are live recordings  before a small audience (well recorded supposedly) and I believe offered by Smith himself (through amazon) from a site called Beethovensmith. I found that I enjoyed a couple of other sets by professors (Craig Sheppard and Peter Takacs) so I thought I would take a chance on another prof...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 10, 2016, 06:32:09 PM
I'm honor-bound to here mention the other Great American Beethoven Professor, Penelope Crawford. (Sadly, never to be a complete set.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 18, 2016, 07:00:11 PM
(http://st.cdjapan.co.jp/pictures/l/03/36/SICC-19004.jpg?v=1)



The final volume of Yu Kosuge's cycle is slated for release next month.  Should I, shouldn't I . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 18, 2016, 09:48:11 PM
My opinion doesn't mean much (and that is not false modesty). But after listening to Laul I find it hard to listen to most of my other sets. He's got excitement, danger, intensity, in spades - and it didn't cost a penny. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Fred on January 18, 2016, 09:58:48 PM
Or to put it another way, I've got several Kosuge discs and didn't bother listening to most of them. Well played and well mannered and, well, that's it ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 19, 2016, 03:09:10 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 18, 2016, 07:00:11 PM
(http://st.cdjapan.co.jp/pictures/l/03/36/SICC-19004.jpg?v=1)

The final volume of Yu Kosuge's cycle is slated for release next month.  Should I, shouldn't I . . .


Dear Todd -- can you confirm/correct/add information about this cycle, if you have any of it yet?


SACDs (hybrid?)

I: Aufbruch
II: Liebe
III: Leben
IV: Transzendenz
V: Ultimate

Dates of first recording, last recording... anything special about the instrument used?
Which label?
2 disc sets of Hybrid SACDs each?

That sort of thing. Much obliged -

Jens
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2016, 05:33:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 19, 2016, 03:09:10 AM
Dear Todd -- can you confirm/correct/add information about this cycle, if you have any of it yet?



Don't have 'em, but the set is comprised of five 2 hybrid SACD sets from Sony, available in Japan only.  I'll probably have them soon enough.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 19, 2016, 07:45:54 PM
Released today in the UK! (Info below from MDT) Not sure why they chose to release only 8 of the 24 sonatas he recorded in the pre-war years.

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/A/P/APR6018.jpg)


Ludwig Van Beethoven
Wilhelm Kempff
The late Beethoven sonatas: Pre-War 78-rpm recordings 1925–1936


CD 1 (76.02)

    1-2. Sonata No 24 in F sharp major Op 78, Recorded in 1932 (Polydor 90193)
    3-5. Sonata No 26 in E flat major 'Les adieux' Op 81a, Recorded in 1928 (Polydor 66687/8)
    6-7. Sonata No 27 in E minor Op 90, Recorded in 1928 (Polydor 62639 & 66712)
    8-10. Sonata No 29 in B flat major 'Hammerklavier' Op 106, Recorded on 7 & 25 January 1936 (Polydor 67077/81)

CD 2 (71.26)

    1-4. Sonata No 28 in A major Op 101, Acoustic recording, 1925 (Polydor 66178/9)
    5-7. Sonata No 30 in E major Op 109, Recorded on 29 July 1936 (Polydor 67091/2)
    8-10. Sonata No 31 in A flat major Op 110, Recorded on 29 July 1936 (Polydor 67088/90)
    11-12. Sonata No 32 in C minor Op 111, Recorded on 31 July 1936 (Polydor 67093/5)

Wilhelm Kempff had such a long life, and recorded so prolifically in the LP era, that we tend to forget that he began his recording career in 1920 in the acoustic period, and recorded 24 of the 32 Beethoven sonatas on 78's. Indeed, in the pre-war period he was second only to Schnabel (whose complete cycle was done in the 1930's) in the amount of Beethoven he recorded, and he made the first ever recordings of the sonatas Op81a, Op90 & Op101, included in this set.

Kempff went on to record two complete sonata cycles in the 1950's and 1960's but he has always been regarded as a poetic and lyrical player and his Beethoven is therefore more closely allied to Mozart than the more barnstorming approach of others. The 'first thoughts' included here are perhaps the freest of all his recordings and have an almost improvisatory feel. Perhaps the impossibility of editing at this period captured Kempff more naturally than in his later efforts.

None of the recordings included here are currently available elsewhere and Op90 and Op101 have never been reissued since their original release on 78s. The acoustic Op101 is a particularly rare item barely known to collectors.

APR 2cds APR6018
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 20, 2016, 02:59:30 AM
Quote from: George on January 19, 2016, 07:45:54 PM
None of the recordings included here are currently available elsewhere and Op90 and Op101 have never been reissued since their original release on 78s. The acoustic Op101 is a particularly rare item barely known to collectors.

Do you know, how many he actually recorded in the pre war years?

The defunct Dante release contained no.s:

2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 21, 23, 24, 26, 29, 30, 31 and 32, and now we get 27 and 28 on APR.

This makes up for 24 of the sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 20, 2016, 03:33:20 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2016, 02:59:30 AM
Do you know, how many he actually recorded in the pre war years?

The defunct Dante release contained no.s:

2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 21, 23, 24, 26, 29, 30, 31 and 32, and now we get 27 and 28 on APR.

This makes up for 24 of the sonatas.

For some reason I was under the impression that ...
Quote
...Wilhelm Kempff recorded 25 sonatas in the 20s through the 40s for Polydor (on electrical 78s), even before Schnabel did his cycle, and they are near impossible to get a hold of. (Opp.2/3, 22, 27/1, 28, 31/2, and 101 missing from making the cycle complete.) They had been available, briefly, from the sketchy Dante/Lys label on 9 individual discs. (Kempff even recorded eight of the sonatas earlier than that, in 1924-25... on shellacs.)

I wonder if I mis-counted or if I have at least kept my research notes to track down that 25th sonata.)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
The Great Incomplete Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 20, 2016, 03:59:34 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2016, 02:59:30 AM
Do you know, how many he actually recorded in the pre war years?

Yes, the info I posted (from APR) said 24.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on January 20, 2016, 07:00:09 AM
Anybody heard the DGG Sokolov Hammerklavier ? I am very curious about it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 20, 2016, 07:49:51 AM
Quote from: André on January 20, 2016, 07:00:09 AM
Anybody heard the DGG Sokolov Hammerklavier ? I am very curious about it.

The first movent is lyrical and expressive, at the expense of heroic forward momentum. You will have to decide for yourself whether the music is interesting enough melodically for that sort of treatment.

The third movement is slow but not particularly dreamy, there's a great variety of attack and portato, sometimes quite distinctive to me, and the dynamic range is striking.  My feeling is that the approach is emphasising melody, a sort of romantic effusion, rather than counterpoint, but I need some more time to feel comfortable about what he's doing there, I may not be being fair. I also have the impression that he makes the adagio  sound like complex music, structurally.

I've only listened to these two movements, I have no idea how he makes the whole sonata cohere.

I heard him play this in Lyon (so not this concert) and in the recital it was his timbre which was most memorable, especially when he played loud. The sound is not bad for a recording, just not as special as his sound in real life. The difference in hall acoustics may partly account for this of course.

I have a strong intuition that amw will LOATH it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 20, 2016, 08:47:01 AM
Quote from: George on January 20, 2016, 03:59:34 AM
Yes, the info I posted (from APR) said 24.

So we can conclude, that my list above is complete?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 20, 2016, 09:34:14 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2016, 08:47:01 AM
So we can conclude, that my list above is complete?

I think so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 20, 2016, 10:03:55 AM
Quote from: George on January 19, 2016, 07:45:54 PM
Kempff went on to record two complete sonata cycles in the 1950's and 1960's but he has always been regarded as a poetic and lyrical player and his Beethoven is therefore more closely allied to Mozart than the more barnstorming approach of others. The 'first thoughts' included here are perhaps the freest of all his recordings and have an almost improvisatory feel. Perhaps the impossibility of editing at this period captured Kempff more naturally than in his later efforts.

In the mid 1960's I attended two recitals with Kempff, in one of these he played only Beethoven sonatas. Even if I was very young, I already knew much of his mono-cycle, and my impression was - IIRC - that he was much more free at recital, than in the recordings. The live recital from Japan (which I have not heard) might possibly confirm that impression.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on January 20, 2016, 11:06:53 AM
Thanks, Mandryka !
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on January 20, 2016, 01:58:33 PM
Quote from: Fred on January 18, 2016, 09:48:11 PM
My opinion doesn't mean much (and that is not false modesty). But after listening to Laul I find it hard to listen to most of my other sets. He's got excitement, danger, intensity, in spades - and it didn't cost a penny. 
Interpretively there's something about his sonatas that reminds me of Michael Korstick's cycle. With a little less technique, and a little more depth, and better tonal control, and more moderate tempi (not by much, though). I suppose not really that similar after all. If a commercial recording is forthcoming I'd probably listen to it though.

The Hammerklavier outer movements are under tempo, but he tries to make them sound fast, clearly having been listening to Maria Yudina. Which is not a bad thing. There are a lot of wrong notes and pedal abuse though. (Why slow down that much if you still can't play the notes? Might as well just listen to Schnabel >.>)

Quote from: Mandryka on January 20, 2016, 07:49:51 AM
I have a strong intuition that amw will LOATH it.
I have heard it, because I liked Sokolov's DV and I listen to far more op. 106s than can be healthy. I thought it was beautifully played and pretty boring, for whatever my opinion's worth.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 24, 2016, 10:53:37 AM
Remind me how folks like the 1983-84 Daniel Barenboim Beethoven sonata cycle on video?

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/euroarts2066424.jpg)

"True HD picture! Digitally remastered and restored from 35mm film. Including intensive and high-quality audio and visual restoration."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 26, 2016, 07:07:42 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YHRePIfQL._SS425.jpg)


Sorta cross posted from the Recordings That You Are Considering thread.  This disc is part of a series that will ultimately include 24 of the sonatas from a live cycle recorded a few years back.  But it's download only, at least for now.  I like me something to hold in my hands. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 26, 2016, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 24, 2016, 10:53:37 AM
Remind me how folks like the 1983-84 Daniel Barenboim Beethoven sonata cycle on video?

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/euroarts2066424.jpg)

"True HD picture! Digitally remastered and restored from 35mm film. Including intensive and high-quality audio and visual restoration."
You can find these on youtube to sample them and see if you like them. It's a bit reverberant from what I remember, and the video is just of him sitting in elegant looking rooms. Barenboim is better technically than in the later video, but the later video is live and there is more frisson. Interpretatively, I remember it being a bit conservative, whereas I find the more recent version more interesting from this point of view. But best to sample it and see what you think. I've not heard the other audio sets he did, so cannot compare to that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2016, 04:24:26 AM
Bruno-Leonardo Gelber recorded (some) Beethoven Sonatas for Denon back in the days... but it seems he's never gotten near the finish line.
Does anyone have information on this?
I've found the following of the sonatas covered by Gelber.

1, X, 3, X, 5, 6, 7, 8, X, X, X, X, 13, 14, 15, X, 17, 18, X, 20, 21, x, 22, 23, X, 25, 26, 27, 28, X, X, X, 32
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 04:39:00 AM
No, except that they are mostly very good (I have all but one of the Denon Beethoven discs) and that he had recorded about two LPs worth or so already in the 60s and 70s for EMI. Unfortunately, they do not help for completion, for all I know. I have opp. 27/1, 28 and 81a in the EMI rarissimes Vol. and there are also op.13 and 27/2, all of which are also in the Denon set (different recordings, of course).
Apparently op.27/1 and 81a were special favorites of the artist and he supposedly played them frequently in recital.

[asin]B000A2ES8S[/asin]

The Denon were bloody expensive when they came out around 1990, usually this did not matter much in those times (as they could claim "audiophile sound") but maybe sales were poor?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 29, 2016, 04:50:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 04:39:00 AM
The Denon were bloody expensive when they came out around 1990, usually this did not matter much in those times (as they could claim "audiophile sound") but maybe sales were poor?

I purchased four of the Denon CDs in the early 1990es, but I found him shameless - almost intruding extrovert, not at all to my taste, so I parted with them eventually. Good sound (and price) however.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 05:20:23 AM
"shameless - almost intruding extrovert"
I do not think I understand what this is supposed to mean in musical interpretation.
Do you mean he plays Beethoven like Liszt? :D
Do you think LvB's op.2/3, 13 or 57 (and many others) is "introvert music"? Beethoven, as long as he played in public was known both for the emotional depth but also for the extrovert brilliance of his playing and I think this shows in many pieces (expecially those involving a piano and up to op.73 or so... ;))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 29, 2016, 05:47:57 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 29, 2016, 04:24:26 AMBruno-Leonardo Gelber recorded (some) Beethoven Sonatas for Denon back in the days... but it seems he's never gotten near the finish line.



That aborted cycle is long dead.  There are six volumes on Denon, and I believe they are all available in Japan.  I think you covered them, but I've not explored the recordings at all.  I have an earlier incarnation of the EMI disc, and it's not good enough for me to spend premium sums on an incomplete set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 29, 2016, 06:33:46 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 05:20:23 AM
"shameless - almost intruding extrovert"
I do not think I understand what this is supposed to mean in musical interpretation.
Do you mean he plays Beethoven like Liszt? :D
Do you think LvB's op.2/3, 13 or 57 (and many others) is "introvert music"? Beethoven, as long as he played in public was known both for the emotional depth but also for the extrovert brilliance of his playing and I think this shows in many pieces (expecially those involving a piano and up to op.73 or so... ;))

I am not talking about the music, but about Gelbers interpretation. I find that Gelber abuse Beethovens music for his own purpose,
And I notice, that the hypercompletistic Todd doesn´t have the intention to collect Gelbers recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 29, 2016, 06:56:46 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 29, 2016, 06:33:46 AMAnd I notice, that the hypercompletistic Todd doesn´t have the intention to collect Gelbers recordings.



Not at the prices I would have had to have paid the last time I looked.  If Denon boxed 'em up at a lower price point - $20-$30 for the whole shebang - then that's a different story.  As it is now, the next LvB import from Japan I have to prepare or is Kosuge.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 09:48:56 AM
I will certainly not tell anyone what to like but Gelber is neither willful nor excentric (as could be said about e.g. Gould or maybe Pletnev and Afanassiev), in fact I'd very roughly characterize them as extremely well done "mainstreamy" readings and this could probably be already checked by soundbites.
So I do find "abuse" a both misleading and unfair verdict (and it also brings, confusingly, a moral aspect into aesthetic judgment).

If I count correctly, there are 19 or 20 sonatas on Denon (the worst gap is the lack of opp.106-110). More than Serkin or Solomon recorded and about as many as Gould and Richter did.

If you check e.g. the rec.music.classical.recordings archive on google groups you will see that Gelber (and those Beethoven recordings) are regarded quite highly by a diverse range of listeners and collectors. Until SACD came along the Denons would also be regarded as having demonstration quality sound.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.classical.recordings/gelber$20beethoven

I am not going to tell anyone what to do but Gelber/Denon should IMO have at least as high a priority for a Beethoven sonata collector as e.g. Schiff or Oppitz (or probably two dozen others Todd has heard of which I do not even know the names of the pianists...)

I'd also dare a bet that Todd will like most of Gelber's. We both like the Gulda/Amadeo a lot, it seems, and I like Gelber's.

I got one or two from Japan and the others (as I said, I still lack one) from Ebay or Amazon marketplace some time ago (not all at once) and I am pretty sure that I did not pay more than 10-12 Euros (incl. shipping) for any of them (certainly not on average).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on January 29, 2016, 11:04:04 AM
Just a couple of days ago I ordered his disc with 21,27,32 -- but the seller cancelled it and the other seller's price has gone up by about $5. >:(

The other 5 Denon discs are on spotify.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 29, 2016, 11:08:27 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 09:48:56 AM
I will certainly not tell anyone what to like but Gelber is neither willful nor excentric (as could be said about e.g. Gould or maybe Pletnev and Afanassiev), in fact I'd very roughly characterize them as extremely well done "mainstreamy" readings and this could probably be already checked by soundbites.

I did not write, that I find him willful or eccentric, but on the other hand far from mainstream. I think he is unrestricted romantic, making Annie Fischer seem utterly inhibited in comparison. Mainstream is Goode e.g..

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 29, 2016, 11:23:20 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 09:48:56 AMI'd also dare a bet that Todd will like most of Gelber's.



I've heard the EMI disc, and the sonatas are good, but nothing special, and I don't like his Emperor.  Hence, my lack of enthusiasm for buying the Denon discs.  Again, if they come out as a box at a nice price, I'll buy, but I'm focused on complete sets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 29, 2016, 11:25:17 AM
The EMI Appassionata can be heard on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shbOpZHb0Oc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 29, 2016, 11:39:03 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 29, 2016, 04:24:26 AM
Bruno-Leonardo Gelber recorded (some) Beethoven Sonatas for Denon back in the days... but it seems he's never gotten near the finish line.
Does anyone have information on this?
I've found the following of the sonatas covered by Gelber.

1, X, 3, X, 5, 6, 7, 8, X, X, X, X, 13, 14, 15, X, 17, 18, X, 20, 21, x, 22, 23, X, 25, 26, 27, 28, X, X, X, 32

I don't think 22 was released on Denon, Jens.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 29, 2016, 09:23:45 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 26, 2016, 07:07:42 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YHRePIfQL._SS425.jpg)


Sorta cross posted from the Recordings That You Are Considering thread.  This disc is part of a series that will ultimately include 24 of the sonatas from a live cycle recorded a few years back.  But it's download only, at least for now.  I like me something to hold in my hands.

The first movement of op 111 is epic style, punctuated by moments of interiority. My impression was of thoughtful and nuanced playing. The second movement is stuffed with extreme rubato, mega-romantic, I thought it was horrible, horrible, horrible.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 29, 2016, 09:24:59 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 29, 2016, 11:23:20 AM


I've heard the EMI disc, and the sonatas are good, but nothing special,

His way of playing op 2/1 and 10/3 on Denon reminds me of Katsaris. I haven't heard any other Beethoven by him.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 01:31:22 AM
I do no think there is a recording of op.54 by Gelber (unless on an old EMI LP but I doubt it), the additional x between 21 and 22 in Jens's scheme suggests a typing error.
The Denon discs are the following (confusingly not all of mine say explicitly "Vol. x", there may even be slightly different couplings around, e.g. opp.13, 27/2, 57 or so)

Vol.1 opp.13, 49/2, 10/1, 2/3
Vol.2 opp.27, 1+2, 28
Vol.3 opp.57, 31/3, 81a
Vol.4 opp.53, 90, 111
Vol.5 opp.31/2, 79, 101 (I lack this one)
Vol.6 op.2/1, op.10, 2+3

recorded from 1987-95

Hopefully, I find leisure to listen to some on the weekend.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2016, 05:40:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 01:31:22 AM
I do no think there is a recording of op.54 by Gelber (unless on an old EMI LP but I doubt it), the additional x between 21 and 22 in Jens's scheme suggests a typing error.
The Denon discs are the following (confusingly not all of mine say explicitly "Vol. x", there may even be slightly different couplings around, e.g. opp.13, 27/2, 57 or so)

You are right on. It snuck in there, somehow, but wasn't on the list I had actually compiled. It's been mentioned now, but not actually added, on the list of "Great Incomplete Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 06:16:49 AM
Someone above mentioned that several of Gelber/Denon are on spotify, so who's interested can try for oneself. With a little patience some of the discs are available fairly cheap either from CDjapan or similar sources or used from amazon marketplace, so it's no great expense to try one or two.
It seems MUCH harder to get the Annie Fischer/Hungaroton for acceptable prices... typical price from a marketplace seller for the Gelber CDs is around EUR 10-11, for Fischer 14-19. Ain't gonna pay that kind of money for Eastern bloc recordings :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on January 30, 2016, 12:08:54 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 06:16:49 AM
Someone above mentioned that several of Gelber/Denon are on spotify, so who's interested can try for oneself. With a little patience some of the discs are available fairly cheap either from CDjapan or similar sources or used from amazon marketplace, so it's no great expense to try one or two.
It seems MUCH harder to get the Annie Fischer/Hungaroton for acceptable prices... typical price from a marketplace seller for the Gelber CDs is around EUR 10-11, for Fischer 14-19. Ain't gonna pay that kind of money for Eastern bloc recordings :D

I have the Fischer set..it is available for about $90US on Amazon MP US,  and there seemed nothing wrong with the sonics. But I don't rate her as high as other people do.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 12:34:13 PM
The complete Fischer set goes for ca. 90 EUR in Europe as well. Sure, that's cheaper than 140-180 for 9 single discs would be but 93 EUR is very expensive for such a set in 2016. I bought my first two sets in 1997: the incomplete Gilels for 90 DM or so (less than 50 EUR), and in 98 or 99 the Gulda/Amadeo for even less.
Sure, back then there were really expensive sets around but in general complete sets have become so much cheaper that the Fischer must count as rather expensive.

And I already have the Annie Fischer "Introuvables" with 7 sonatas and Vol. 1 + 3 from the Hungaroton. I would have to re-listen but I think I also never quite understood what was supposed to be so super special about Fischer; very good (if often gruff and humorless, hers is the most angry op.31/3 I have heard). I would snap it probably for EUR 50 because it is so highly regarded but not for more than 90.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 30, 2016, 12:51:15 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 12:34:13 PM
The complete Fischer set goes for ca. 90 EUR in Europe as well. Sure, that's cheaper than 140-180 for 9 single discs would be but 93 EUR is very expensive for such a set in 2016. I bought my first two sets in 1997: the incomplete Gilels for 90 DM or so (less than 50 EUR), and in 98 or 99 the Gulda/Amadeo for even less.
Sure, back then there were really expensive sets around but in general complete sets have become so much cheaper that the Fischer must count as rather expensive.

And I already have the Annie Fischer "Introuvables" with 7 sonatas and Vol. 1 + 3 from the Hungaroton. I would have to re-listen but I think I also never quite understood what was supposed to be so super special about Fischer; very good (if often gruff and humorless, hers is the most angry op.31/3 I have heard). I would snap it probably for EUR 50 because it is so highly regarded but not for more than 90.
No, I think you are right that it is one of the higher priced ones. Even some recent ones like Guy and Lewis are quite a bit less than Fischer. With so much choice (and quality), there is no need to pay that amount if you don't want to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 12:56:31 PM
I'd be willing to pay at least three times as much for Fischer's as for Paul Lewis'  >:D
But there are limits for everything...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 30, 2016, 01:18:27 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 12:34:13 PMSure, back then there were really expensive sets around but in general complete sets have become so much cheaper that the Fischer must count as rather expensive.



90 Euros or dollars is mid-price.  Japanese and New Zealand cycles, now those can get expensive.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 01:45:03 PM
Says the man who does not want to shell out for the Gelber discs...?

ca. 10 EUR is midprice for single discs. Boxes with re-issued or older recordings often went at lower prices per disc already in the late 1990s as I said further above.

Today a brand new two-disc set like Levit's late sonatas starts at about 10 EUR per disc and if one waits a few months for the first sale, one can probably snap it up for 15.

Nowadays I buy almost only used discs. For 90 EUR I do not buy 9 or 10, but probably 20 or more. But the hungaroton single discs are almost NEVER on sale. Or I could get Backhaus from Italy, one of the Kempff and still 10 EUR left or so.
I think I got the two Fischer Vols. several years ago at MDT when they actually had a (comparably slight, but substantial enough to induce me to buy) reduction for hungaroton. Probably the complete box was not reduced in price. I was less inhibited then and spent too much on CDs, so I wonder why I did not get the complete set then.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 30, 2016, 02:23:40 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 01:45:03 PM
Says the man who does not want to shell out for the Gelber discs...?



That has nothing to do with price.  I know some Gelber, and the set is incomplete.  Therefore, it's low/no priority.  Were it a complete set, I'd buy it.  (Why go Gelber when I can go Kosuge?)  If it pops up in convenient cheap box form, then I may buy.  I'm not concerned with per disc prices.  Life is too short to worry about five or ten euros/dollars here and there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 06, 2016, 07:07:23 AM
Looks like Igor Levit is performing the entire sonata cycle at Wigmore Hall next season.  I doubt the performances get issued on Wigmore Live, but I wonder if Mr Levit is prepping to complete the cycle for Sony for 2020 or beyond.

Also of interest, he and Julia Fischer are teaming up to perform the complete Violin Sonatas at Wigmore in July.  If ever they recorded that cycle, it would be worth hearing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 20, 2016, 11:29:25 AM
Don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but Wilhelm Kempff's stereo cycle is now streamable at Amazon USA.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on March 24, 2016, 01:50:23 PM
In another thread we have been discussing tempo choices for several slow LvB sonata movements. Despite some obvious parallels between the slow movements of op.22 and op.31/1, both 9/8 "aria" style with some (or lots of) embellishments pianists usually differ in their tempi considerably. More precisely, very few pianists play the op.22 adagio "in slow 3" rather in moderate to slow 9, whereas even in slow readings of op.31/1,ii one can still "feel it in 3". Typical playing times for op.31/1ii are around 11 min, for op.22ii 8-9 min.

Now my request for those who own lots of Beethoven sonatas. I am looking for
1. fairly fast readings op.22ii; the fastest I know is Gulda/amadeo at ca. 5:30, but up to around 7 min playing time qualifies as "fast"
2. pianists who play similar tempi in those movements. My main candidate here is Brendel with ca. 6:40 in op.22 and about 11 min? in op.31. So note that a fast tempo in op.22ii is a "mainstream" tempo in op.31/1. A "mainstream" op.22ii at 8:30 would correspond to >12 min in op.31/1. So pianists need to be fast in op.22 and average in op.31 or average in op.22 and fairly slow in op.31/1.

Furthermore I am interested in very fast and very slow readings of the following slow movements (I put Gulda's timings in brackets as he is often a candidate for the fastest)

op.2/2 (6:32 slowest: Gould 8:43)
op.2/3 (5:50; slowest: Gould 12:45)
op.7 (7:02; slowest: Gilels 10:00)
op.10/1 (Gould 6:17, Gulda 7:18, Brautigam 7:12, Pollini 7:13; slowest: Gilels 11:45)
op.10/3 (8:02)
op.13 (Gulda 5:17; Gould 4:41, Pollini 4:38, Kocsis 4:38)
op.22 (5:29; slowest Gilels 11:18)
op.31/1 (7:55; slowest: Heidsieck 13:55)

In some of those examples we can clearly see how some pianists think that certain movements should be counted in a different unit. E.g. crotchets vs. quavers in op.10/1, dotted crotchets vs. quavers in op.22. Kolisch claims that the slow movements both of op.10/1 and 13 should go in crotchets but only the fastest readings do (kind of). Maybe he is simply wrong. But I still think Gilels in ludicrously slow in op.10/1 and op.22.
(And if one needs more evidence that Gould was mad... listen to these movements, some faster, some slower than anyone else...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 24, 2016, 02:27:07 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 24, 2016, 01:50:23 PM
op.22 (5:29; slowest Gilels 11:18)

... But I still think Gilels in ludicrously slow in op.10/1 and op.22.

I just checked Schnabel's Op. 22/2 and his is at 9:01. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuXELYdiG8Q) I don't think it sounds too slow at all. Given that, Gilels is actually closer to Schnabel than Gulda. I will agree that Gilels's style takes some getting used to, though. At first, I didn't like it at all. But it quickly grew on me with repeated listens. I wish he had lived to finish the set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on March 25, 2016, 02:35:52 AM
As I have only 7 or so recordings of op.22 (it is not a favorite piece and also not so likely to be included in anthology discs), I am not sure but is seems that most pianists play it around 8-9 min. > 8min is as we discussed in the other thread, usually too slow for "in 3 dotted crotchets".
So Gulda and Gilels are statistically similar far of the average/median but my point is that the median is suspect because I think the piece should go "in 3". Brendel is a minute slower than Gulda but one of the few who apparently also think that way. So does Pollini (6:15).
Of the stats I have so far there seems a gap: Either pianists play it "in 3" (up to ca. 7 min) or they are around 8:30-9:30 (most, the only one close Gilels is Arrau at ca. 10:40). There is very little between 7-8 (Kovacevich 7:13, Serkin 7:50).

opp.2/3, 10/1, 13 seem somewhat similar cases but with 8ths vs 16ths and quarters vs. 8ths as counting units.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on March 25, 2016, 02:41:33 AM
There are some of Gilels Beethoven sonatas I like a lot (often the live Melodiya/Brilliant even more than the DG). But I think there are some movements where the tempi are way off and it does not work (some kind of do despite the extreme slowness). E.g. unlike amw I think a "majestic" slowish first movement of op.106 can work well although I agree that it is clearly wrong.
Independent of tempo I find Gilels also too serious in some of the more humorous pieces.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on March 25, 2016, 03:00:11 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 25, 2016, 02:35:52 AM
Of the stats I have so far there seems a gap: Either pianists play it "in 3" (up to ca. 7 min) or they are around 8:30-9:30 (most, the only one close Gilels is Arrau at ca. 10:40). There is very little between 7-8 (Kovacevich 7:13, Serkin 7:50).
FWIW I remembered Kovacevich as my favourite performance of Op. 22 and re-listening the other day after I have no idea how many years confirmed that impression.

I also took the time today to retry 22/ii with a metronome set to a slower speed (eighth = 108), and compared it with the one I played following my own instincts (eighth = 148)—which was not a pleasant experience, lmao—and concluded that the best tempo for listening would probably lie somewhere in between, but closer to 108 than 148. So I guess that means recordings in the 5:30-6:00 range. 108 feels pretty slow, but that's partly the metronome (no flexibility whatsoever), and partly that a better pianist could make it more interesting.

(I also tried 31/1/ii with a metronome, though I sort of ignored it a lot of the time because the little cadenzas threw it off. The metronome was set to eighth = 120, and my average tempo comes out to 119, unsurprisingly. I think that's a good & very "typical" tempo for the movement, basically about the same as Pollini, Goodyear and Komen among others.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on March 25, 2016, 05:08:11 AM
What I tried to point out was that there seem to be very few recordings going for op.22 "in 3" at all. And except for Gulda they are usually closer to 7 min than to 6 (so closer to 100 than 108, which is still in the same range) and very few at the slowest end of what could still be counted in 3. Apparently most players prefer what is closer to andante (ca. 72-82) in 8ths to adagio in dotted quarters. So in a sense Arrau and Gilels bite the bullet and get closer to adagio (in 8ths) than those in between.

I have 3 discs of Kovacevich's EMI series (not the one with op.22). The sound is not so great ("hard and brittle") and he is sometimes a little brutal. The single discs are mostly out of print and somewhat pricey and I don't really like the sonata op.22 enough to get another one although both he and Pollini would certainly be candidates for me. And I actually like Gulda here, I think he is too fast in the finale but the adagio works quite well for me. Similarly with op.10/1 I listened to last night. The adagio has a nice flow despite being at the faster end of normal but the first movement at 80 bars/min or even faster was too breathless for me (most play it around 70). (Then there's Gould who goes through 10/1i at about 112 bars/min and rushes through the thing in 2:40 without repeat...)

Generally, it seems that Gilels and some others take in some of these movements the position that even "small notes" (like 32nds) should go rather slowish, although the melody at the beginning of a movement quite clearly goes in quarters or dotted quarters.

Another outlier from Gilels is the variation movement in op.14/2 where he (Gould as well) ignores the alla breve marking and plays it almost at half the speed of most others (8:05 vs. typically around 5 min.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 25, 2016, 05:24:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 25, 2016, 05:08:11 AM
What I tried to point out was that there seem to be very few recordings going for op.22 "in 3" at all. And except for Gulda they are usually closer to 7 min than to 6 (so closer to 100 than 108, which is still in the same range) and very few at the slowest end of what could still be counted in 3. Apparently most players prefer what is closer to andante (ca. 72-82) in 8ths to adagio in dotted quarters. So in a sense Arrau and Gilels bite the bullet and get closer to adagio (in 8ths) than those in between.

I have 3 discs of Kovacevich's EMI series (not the one with op.22). The sound is not so great ("hard and brittle") and he is sometimes a little brutal. The single discs are mostly out of print and somewhat pricey and I don't really like the sonata op.22 enough to get another one although both he and Pollini would certainly be candidates for me. And I actually like Gulda here, I think he is too fast in the finale but the adagio works quite well for me. Similarly with op.10/1 I listened to last night. The adagio has a nice flow despite being at the faster end of normal but the first movement at 80 bars/min or even faster was too breathless for me (most play it around 70). (Then there's Gould who goes through 10/1i at about 112 bars/min and rushes through the thing in 2:40 without repeat...)

Generally, it seems that Gilels and some others take in some of these movements the position that even "sLmall notes" (like 32nds) should go rather slowish, although the melody at the beginning of a movement quite clearly goes in quarters or dotted quarters.

Another outlier from Gilels is the variation movement in op.14/2 where he (Gould as well) ignores the alla breve marking and plays it almost at half the speed of most others (8:05 vs. typically around 5 min.)

It would be interesting to really listen carefully and analytically to Gilels sometime. I mean just see exactly what he does where. I don't have the time right now, and anyway my main interest at the moment isn't really in 19th century music, but I remember some astonishing freedoms with Schumann's etudes. Almost randomly slow tempos.

I bet he's as much a law to himself as Yudina was. Richter and Sofronitsky seem much more middle of the road, but maybe I'm wrong.,
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on March 25, 2016, 05:45:06 AM
Gilels does not really take liberties. He seems extremely thorough, very finely graded dynamics, attention to detail, strong contrasts (listen to e.g. the beginning "question" in op.31/3i, I think I understand what people like about his interpretations (because I like many of those aspects myself). But overall tending to the severe and serious (and slow). As a relative beginner Gilels' was the first box I bought, so in several of the lesser known pieces (e.g. opp.22,31/1) his were the first interpretations I heard (I had many of the better known sonatas long before I got that box).
When I got Gulda's about a year or two later (this was in the late 1990s) some movements turned into different music. I still find that I "get" the long line and overall form of many movements better in Gulda's fast and sometimes slighly "mechanistic" readings than in slow ones, despite their scrupulous attention to details. And although I find some of his too fast nowadays, I usually still enjoy their drive and energy.
(So I have a "personal history" with those recordings...)

But what is more interesting to me now than what some or other pianists do, is the importance of tempo and larger rhythmic units. Although I think Kolisch is to be doubted in some specific tempo suggestions (he wanted to "destroy" a particular romanticized way of interpretation and is sometimes overstressing things), he was right to point out the importance of such factors and how distorted pieces can get when they are customarily played (usually) too slow.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on April 13, 2016, 05:46:21 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rxezrqg5L.jpg)

After vacillating for a couple of years now I've finally decided to fork out for this as it comes so highly recommended. While I don't mind fast tempi in the opening and closing movements of the LvB sonatas, the tempi of the slow movements must feel like they are at the right speed and not merely glossed over. As I've not heard virtually any of this set (but have sampled his earlier Decca/Philips recording) I'm just hoping that Gulda will oblige. This will now go alongside my other sets (not all complete*) which include: Annie Fischer, Kempff (mono), Barenboim (EMI) Ciani, Schnabel, Gilels*, Gerard Willems, Bruce Hungerford*, Rudolf Serkin*, and Sviatoslav Richter*. I'm at work and might have forgotten a couple.

So was this $100 well spent or not?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 13, 2016, 06:40:41 PM
Quote from: Holden on April 13, 2016, 05:46:21 PM
So was this $100 well spent or not?

Absolutely! The only sets that I like more are Annie Fischer's and Lucchesini's. I need to hear Lucchesini's set again, but it may be my new favorite. Hopefully Brilliant Classics rescues it from OOP-land, like they did with the Gulda/Amadeo set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on April 13, 2016, 10:55:44 PM
Gulda has very fleet tempi throughout; many listeners find some of his slow movements too fast. (I think he is the fastest I have heard in several of them although Backhaus, Gould, Kovacevich, Pollini might be faster in others).

I rarely do, but I think his combination of high velocity and somewhat "cool" approach is not for everyone. And I think he is (almost) too fast in some fast movements, e.g. op.10/1i. But overall I like this a lot. It was my second cycle after a bunch of single CDs with about half of the better known sonatas and the almost complete Gilels and I bought it in 98 or 99, in the old "white" amadeo guise with one track per sonata. And found his approach very refreshing compared to the slow and severe Gilels.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on April 14, 2016, 12:47:14 AM
Quote from: Holden on April 13, 2016, 05:46:21 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rxezrqg5L.jpg)
Annie Fischer, Kempff (mono), Barenboim (EMI) Ciani, Schnabel, Gilels*, Gerard Willems, Bruce Hungerford*, Rudolf Serkin*, and Sviatoslav Richter*.

So was this $100 well spent or not?

Yes, absolutely. $100 is a bargain for those works in those interpretations. Although, technically speaking (rather than *value*-wise), $100 seem a little steep: I see the set listed for around $40,- in either this oop guise on Brilliant or its newer re-issue incarnation on Decca: http://amzn.to/1Wt99Pw (http://amzn.to/1Wt99Pw) There are claims that the Brilliant is the better deal, because it doesn't suffer from AMSI remastering. I have both versions and while I've not listened to them side-by-side to compare specifically, I've not noticed a particular difference.

Good collection you have; if I had them, I'd add Backhaus Stereo for complete happiness.

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 01:09:36 AM
$100 seems a lot for the Brilliant re-issue. The eloquence re-issue is offered for EUR 25 at amazon.de, the Brilliant for about 30 (with cheaper marketplace offers)
(I paid about 70 DM 17 or 18 years ago for the amadeo box, but this was also a good offer). I have not heard the AMSI but I have been told that the differences are very slight.
I have heard/compared the eloquence vs. the older harmonia mundi of Gulda's Diabellis (they have far more problematic sound to begin with) and the differences was small (a little in favor of the somewhat less dry eloquence).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on April 20, 2016, 11:09:02 PM
An excellent thread, that convinced me to get the Annie Fischer set.
I already have the Backhaus, the Arrau, the Goode, the Barenboim 1980's DG, the (uncomplete) Gilels and the Pollini.

I found the entire Fischer set (FLAC files) on prestoclassical.co.uk for less than £10!  8)
The physical CDs are almost ten times more expensive.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 21, 2016, 11:39:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 01:09:36 AM
$100 seems a lot for the Brilliant re-issue. The eloquence re-issue is offered for EUR 25 at amazon.de, the Brilliant for about 30 (with cheaper marketplace offers)
(I paid about 70 DM 17 or 18 years ago for the amadeo box, but this was also a good offer). I have not heard the AMSI but I have been told that the differences are very slight.
I have heard/compared the eloquence vs. the older harmonia mundi of Gulda's Diabellis (they have far more problematic sound to begin with) and the differences was small (a little in favor of the somewhat less dry eloquence).
For a bit more you could buy this which has the Gulda set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BlJskC-TL.jpg)

NOT to be confused with this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71AK1MB6jbL._SX522_.jpg)
where they replaced Gulda with Brendel for some unspeakable reason !
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on April 21, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 01:09:36 AM
$100 seems a lot for the Brilliant re-issue. The eloquence re-issue is offered for EUR 25 at amazon.de, the Brilliant for about 30 (with cheaper marketplace offers)
(I paid about 70 DM 17 or 18 years ago for the amadeo box, but this was also a good offer). I have not heard the AMSI but I have been told that the differences are very slight.
I have heard/compared the eloquence vs. the older harmonia mundi of Gulda's Diabellis (they have far more problematic sound to begin with) and the differences was small (a little in favor of the somewhat less dry eloquence).

The $40 sets were on Amazon US and all the US sellers that I thought would be OK would not post to Australia. As a result I had to get this from the UK. I just don't understand why a lot of Amazon US stuff (more than just CDs BTW) can't be posted to Australia.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on April 22, 2016, 09:18:52 AM
Re: Amazon US. You would think they would sell to Canada,non  ? Well, think again: the cheapest items can't be mailed here ("sorry, there is a problem with the address you have chosen, blablazzzzzzz...."). When they do allow the mailing, the postal charge is 2, 3, 5, 10 times the amount of your purchase (14.99$ per item, equivalent to 19$ CAD). Clearly there is a tariff issue here that makes no commercial sense.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 11:07:37 AM
Thoughts?

[asin]B00D8DVFFA[/asin]

[asin]B004E2WK6W[/asin]

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 12, 2016, 11:47:17 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 11:07:37 AM
Thoughts?


8)

I've been trying to be totally bowled over by that Alpha release -- but so far we haven't clicked. Nothing to dislike... just, for whatever that's worth, no immediate "wow" effect. Could be my deficiency, of course, and probably is.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 12, 2016, 11:49:50 AM
I've finished listening to the Brilliant Gulda cycle and am somewhat underwhelmed. I started with Op2/1 and went on from there. Initial impressions were good but as I moved through the cycle I became a bit bored with the relentless sameness of approach. No 'Sturm und Drang' here I'm thinking. There was the odd sonata or two where Gulda did take time to smell the roses but this was only occasionally. One fact that does stand out is that there is not a single sonata where I can't find a superior version by another pianist. Yes, technically the playing is excellent but it lacks, for want of a better word, 'soul'

To many who have touted the cycle as one of the greats this sounds like heresy but unless a second listen changes my mind I will sell the set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 12, 2016, 11:58:32 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 12, 2016, 11:49:50 AM
I've finished listening to the Brilliant Gulda cycle and am somewhat underwhelmed. I started with Op2/1 and went on from there. Initial impressions were good but as I moved through the cycle I became a bit bored with the relentless sameness of approach. No 'Sturm und Drang' here I'm thinking. There was the odd sonata or two where Gulda did take time to smell the roses but this was only occasionally. One fact that does stand out is that there is not a single sonata where I can't find a superior version by another pianist. Yes, technically the playing is excellent but it lacks, for want of a better word, 'soul'

To many who have touted the cycle as one of the greats this sounds like heresy but unless a second listen changes my mind I will sell the set.

I have never really appreciated Gulda's Beethoven for the reasons you mention, and I have commented about it more times in this forum. Mandryka called somewhere Gulda's playing "matter of fact", and I think this hits the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on May 12, 2016, 12:02:23 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 11:07:37 AM
Thoughts?

I rather like the Zig-Zag one, with late sonatas. Both Lubimov's playing and the sound of the piano, which is really lovely; full bodied, warm and woody.

Haven't heard the other one, but wasn't there an earlier Erato recording with similar (same?) sonatas? I remember liking that one as well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 12:03:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 12, 2016, 11:47:17 AM
I've been trying to be totally bowled over by that Alpha release -- but so far we haven't clicked. Nothing to dislike... just, for whatever that's worth, no immediate "wow" effect. Could be my deficiency, of course, and probably is.

Or maybe not. I have several Lubimov disks, it would be extraordinary if every one of them was brilliant! :)  Thanks for the input, Jens.

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2016, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 12, 2016, 11:49:50 AM
I've finished listening to the Brilliant Gulda cycle and am somewhat underwhelmed.

You aren't alone.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: Draško on May 12, 2016, 12:02:23 PM
I rather like the Zig-Zag one, with late sonatas. Both Lubimov's playing and the sound of the piano, which is really lovely; full bodied, warm and woody.

Haven't heard the other one, but wasn't there an earlier Erato recording with similar (same?) sonatas? I remember liking that one as well.

Thanks, Draško. Everything I have read about that one has been positive.

Yes, I don't think it is exactly the same. I have it, but haven't played it for 2 or 3 years (Haydn frowns on my Beethoven time). It certainly has Moonlight, but I think the others are Waldstein and Appassionata. One difference right away, it is on a genuine Erard, an 1805 IIRC, rather than a reproduction, and in the more impassioned sections, there is doubtless some clanging. I have always reserved my recommendations of it for people who I know can look beyond that, because it would drive some people crazy!!  :D 

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 12, 2016, 12:09:57 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 12, 2016, 11:49:50 AM
I've finished listening to the Brilliant Gulda cycle and am somewhat underwhelmed. I started with Op2/1 and went on from there. Initial impressions were good but as I moved through the cycle I became a bit bored with the relentless sameness of approach. No 'Sturm und Drang' here I'm thinking. There was the odd sonata or two where Gulda did take time to smell the roses but this was only occasionally. One fact that does stand out is that there is not a single sonata where I can't find a superior version by another pianist. Yes, technically the playing is excellent but it lacks, for want of a better word, 'soul'

To many who have touted the cycle as one of the greats this sounds like heresy but unless a second listen changes my mind I will sell the set.

Seems reasonable. It's certainly not what one might suspect, given his flamboyant personality. But it's also the reason the cycle is well liked... just as some (myself included) love and adore Backhaus for making you see the forest rather than showing you all the trees.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 12, 2016, 12:38:26 PM
I could have predicted that you might not like it from your comment in #3445... Gulda is very straightforward, "classical" with most tempi on the fast side; especially in some "slow" movements, e.g. in op.22 and op.106.

Some of the more "romantic" sonatas lack poetry (e.g. opp. 109+110) but I find his energetic, no-nonsense unmannered approach very compelling in many of the works. There is a very natural "flow" to them, I think. They were recorded within two months or so in summer 1967 and apparently without many cuts and edits, although I have no first-hand source for that. In any case, they were already very popular on LP and have been considered a "classic" for decades.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 12, 2016, 12:58:58 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2016, 12:07:21 PM
You aren't alone.

Sarge

Ditto. For me his "energy" simply does not open enough doors/windows/lids into these works.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 01:48:30 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 12, 2016, 12:58:58 PM
Ditto. For me his "energy" simply does not open enough doors/windows/lids into these works.

BOY - I bought the Gulda set on Decca (same recordings as on the Brilliant set) last March (2015) based on the many comments in the forum and also on other reviews read (loved by the Amazonians for what's that is worth) - but from all of the comments quoted above & below, seems NOT to be one in the top tier?   :(

Well, I've not given the box a listen for a year but thought that I enjoyed - will need to add to my 'coming up next for a listen' list - ;)  Dave


Quote from: Holden on May 12, 2016, 11:49:50 AM
I've finished listening to the Brilliant Gulda cycle and am somewhat underwhelmed. I started with Op2/1 and went on from there. Initial impressions were good but as I moved through the cycle I became a bit bored with the relentless sameness of approach. No 'Sturm und Drang' here I'm thinking. There was the odd sonata or two where Gulda did take time to smell the roses but this was only occasionally. One fact that does stand out is that there is not a single sonata where I can't find a superior version by another pianist. Yes, technically the playing is excellent but it lacks, for want of a better word, 'soul'

To many who have touted the cycle as one of the greats this sounds like heresy but unless a second listen changes my mind I will sell the set.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2016, 12:07:21 PM
You aren't alone.  Sarge

Quote from: jlaurson on May 12, 2016, 12:09:57 PM
Seems reasonable. It's certainly not what one might suspect, given his flamboyant personality. But it's also the reason the cycle is well liked... just as some (myself included) love and adore Backhaus for making you see the forest rather than showing you all the trees.

Quote from: Jo498 on May 12, 2016, 12:38:26 PM
I could have predicted that you might not like it from your comment in #3445... Gulda is very straightforward, "classical" with most tempi on the fast side; especially in some "slow" movements, e.g. in op.22 and op.106.

Some of the more "romantic" sonatas lack poetry (e.g. opp. 109+110) but I find his energetic, no-nonsense unmannered approach very compelling in many of the works. There is a very natural "flow" to them, I think. They were recorded within two months or so in summer 1967 and apparently without many cuts and edits, although I have no first-hand source for that. In any case, they were already very popular on LP and have been considered a "classic" for decades.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 12, 2016, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 01:48:30 PM
BOY - I bought the Gulda set on Decca (same recordings as on the Brilliant set) last March (2015) based on the many comments in the forum and also on other reviews read (loved by the Amazonians for what's that is worth) - but from all of the comments quoted above & below, seems NOT to be one in the top tier?   :(

Well, I've not given the box a listen for a year but thought that I enjoyed - will need to add to my 'coming up next for a listen' list - ;)  Dave
Dave, you know you're just as entitled to your own opinion as any of us are to ours! The heck with what we think!

(I've never heard Gulda's set.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 12, 2016, 02:20:42 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 01:48:30 PM
BOY - I bought the Gulda set on Decca (same recordings as on the Brilliant set) last March (2015) based on the many comments in the forum and also on other reviews read (loved by the Amazonians for what's that is worth) - but from all of the comments quoted above & below, seems NOT to be one in the top tier?   :(


I think absolutely top tier! Just depends on what you want in your LvB, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on May 12, 2016, 02:29:43 PM
For the straightforward, just-the-text-and-nothing-but-the-text approach I think I might actually prefer Goodyear to Gulda. I'm not sure why—probably minor things like phrasings and dynamic shading that add up. (Not that Goodyear is much better in terms of touch—the Beethoven pianist who comes closest to a virtuoso of touch is probably Annie Fischer—but he seems to bring out contrasts a bit more? idk) It's a shame it was recorded in someone's bathtub.

It's only particularly in the late sonatas that I ever wish I was listening to another pianist, and then it's also usually another instrument (therefore Komen, Peter Serkin, or Badura-Skoda) because Beethoven's "orchestration" for the piano from about Op. 90 onwards is one of the most remarkable aspects of his late work. Interpretively, no lack of poetry but sometimes a bit metronomic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 02:39:26 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 12, 2016, 01:49:18 PM
Dave, you know you're just as entitled to your own opinion as any of us are to ours! The heck with what we think!

(I've never heard Gulda's set.)

Quote from: jlaurson on May 12, 2016, 02:20:42 PM
I think absolutely top tier! Just depends on what you want in your LvB, though.

Thanks Brian and Jens - my faith has been restored!  8)  I'm the visual guy in the family (as a retired radiologist), Susan is the musician who can guess keys and sight read music, so maybe I've been demoralized in the nearly 46 years we've been married? ;)

But, I'll give that Gulda set another listen, and remember enjoying - plus, love his Wolfie Piano Concertos - thanks.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 12, 2016, 11:17:10 PM
As I said, the Gulda/Amadeo set was considered a "classic" since a few years after its appearance. Of course there were fewer recordings available almost 50 years ago and some people will always prefer others in music that is available in dozens or hundreds of recordings. (I do not much care for Brendel, Backhaus or Kempff, find Arrau a mixed bag and all of those are (probably justifiedly) considered "classics" as well.)

I usually don't believe in a "best" recording because no single one can bring out everything. Gulda is very consistent (fast, unmannered, close to the text, sometimes a little "neutral" but for me very "natural" in phrasing and everything) and while I have not heard newer ones that might be similar (such as Goodyear) I prefer his interpretations to what I have heard of Backhaus' (who is similar in the neutral, straightforward way, I have not heard (enough of) Buchbinder and Badura-Skoda who are probably also similar) and find it a very strong cycle overall.

I do not think I have heard an op.106 I prefer (it is the best I know with a fastish first movement that does not fall apart or suffers from other problems elsewhere) and I find almost all sonatas up to (including) op.31 very good. I also like the Waldstein and Appassionata although they might be too relentlessly fast and "slick" for some.
While not a big favorite per se, his op.31/1 is probably also my favorite because hardly anyone else brings out the parody of the 2nd movement so well.
I also noticed that I now find some movements/pieces too relentlessly fast while I used to find them exhilarating with Gulda when I was younger... (e.g. op.10/1,i)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Drasko on May 13, 2016, 04:56:13 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 12:09:00 PM
Thanks, Draško. Everything I have read about that one has been positive.

Yes, I don't think it is exactly the same. I have it, but haven't played it for 2 or 3 years (Haydn frowns on my Beethoven time). It certainly has Moonlight, but I think the others are Waldstein and Appassionata. One difference right away, it is on a genuine Erard, an 1805 IIRC, rather than a reproduction, and in the more impassioned sections, there is doubtless some clanging. I have always reserved my recommendations of it for people who I know can look beyond that, because it would drive some people crazy!!  :D 

8)

Pulled out the Erato CD: the third sonata is the Pathetique rather than Appassionata and the fortepiano is original Broadwood 1806.

You can use as a preview Moonlight and Waldstein on youtube, which should be from the Alpha release, unless there is some third recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-giRPAdSF68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-giRPAdSF68
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2016, 05:00:22 AM
Quote from: Draško on May 13, 2016, 04:56:13 AM
Pulled out the Erato CD: the third sonata is the Pathetique rather than Appassionata and the fortepiano is original Broadwood 1806.

You can use as a preview Moonlight and Waldstein on youtube, which should be from the Alpha release, unless there is some third recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-giRPAdSF68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-giRPAdSF68

Ah, so much easier with the CD in your hand!   :D

Thanks much for the links! I never think of Youtube when I'm wanting a sample. I guess I should, I'm the only one who doesn't, apparently :(

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 13, 2016, 12:11:29 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 01:48:30 PM
BOY - I bought the Gulda set on Decca (same recordings as on the Brilliant set) last March (2015) based on the many comments in the forum and also on other reviews read (loved by the Amazonians for what's that is worth) - but from all of the comments quoted above & below, seems NOT to be one in the top tier?   :(

Well, I've not given the box a listen for a year but thought that I enjoyed - will need to add to my 'coming up next for a listen' list - ;)  Dave

I thought that the Gulda Decca set was recorded in the 50s (mono?) and the Brilliant is a remastering of the set he recorded for Amadeo in the 60s. The few Decca recordings I've heard are more to my taste.

I didn't hate the set but would not be likely to get it out on a regular basis. The pluses of the set are, as already mentioned, his unfussy approach and the times where he exhibits a wide dynamic range which he could do at speed and with apparent ease. The earlier sonatas are more like this and I prefer his readings of these over the middle and later period ones. But to go back to a remark made earlier about Backhaus, (which I haven't heard) a view of the whole forest instead of each individual tree is my preferred approach to LvB and is why I value Richter et al so highly in the PS. Richter was also capable of playing the sonatas quite fast and with amazing technical skill but you listened to a work grow under his fingers and come to an inevitable conclusion. I don't feel this with Gulda.

This may be unfair to Gulda but I'll use the Waldstein as an example and list two pianists who play the first movement very fast. Rudolf Serkin (1950s) and Dubravka Tomsic are very fleet and there is an impetus to the movement that, while slowing in the appropriate places, drives relentlessly forward. If you use a train as an analogy you know the train is going flat out but that the engineer is still in control. He/she knows exactly how fast they can take each bend without threat of derailment. In Gulda's case, you sense that the train is out of control and headed for a train wreck.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 13, 2016, 01:00:17 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 13, 2016, 12:11:29 PM
I thought that the Gulda Decca set was recorded in the 50s (mono?) and the Brilliant is a remastering of the set he recorded for Amadeo in the 60s.


That's correct, though the Decca proper set is mono and stereo.  Decca has reissued the Amadeo cycle a few times as well, which is why it is sometimes called a Decca cycle.

I think it is fair to state that the Amadeo cycle is a pretty straight-forward set, and close to a just the facts approach.  I think of the cycle as being purposely constrained from an interpretive standpoint - no romantic rubato, no droopy slow movements, and the like - and then Gulda pushes that approach to its limit.  I can fully understand why some other people don't think it is one of the greats, or why they might dislike it, but it remains one of my favorite sets, part of my Holy Tetrarchy. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 13, 2016, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 13, 2016, 01:00:17 PM

That's correct, though the Decca proper set is mono and stereo.  Decca has reissued the Amadeo cycle a few times as well, which is why it is sometimes called a Decca cycle.

I think it is fair to state that the Amadeo cycle is a pretty straight-forward set, and close to a just the facts approach.  I think of the cycle as being purposely constrained from an interpretive standpoint - no romantic rubato, no droopy slow movements, and the like - and then Gulda pushes that approach to its limit.  I can fully understand why some other people don't think it is one of the greats, or why they might dislike it, but it remains one of my favorite sets, part of my Holy Tetrarchy.

So I don't have to comb through 3700 posts, who are the other three members of the HT? (And yes, I have Gulda/Amadeo and no, I don't much like it.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 13, 2016, 01:55:49 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 13, 2016, 01:51:03 PM
So I don't have to comb through 3700 posts, who are the other three members of the HT? (And yes, I have Gulda/Amadeo and no, I don't much like it.)


Annie Fischer, Wilhelm Kempff mono, Wilhelm Backhaus mono.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 14, 2016, 04:02:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 13, 2016, 01:55:49 PM

Annie Fischer, Wilhelm Kempff mono, Wilhelm Backhaus mono.

I have two of your tetrarchy Todd, Annie and Wilhelm K and rate both very highly. Fischer rates as my favourite complete set despite the fact that only three of her sonatas rate as my #1 choice. She is consistently good and I can't think of a weak performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 14, 2016, 04:45:06 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 14, 2016, 04:02:12 AM
I have two of your tetrarchy Todd, Annie and Wilhelm K and rate both very highly. Fischer rates as my favourite complete set despite the fact that only three of her sonatas rate as my #1 choice. She is consistently good and I can't think of a weak performance.

I have two myself, Gulda and Annie. I much prefer her expansive phrasing to Gulda's stiff, unyielding metronomic approach. The only two other complete sets in my collection are Heidsieck, who is too eccentric for my liking, and Yves Nat, who is generally satisfying. (I had Bernard Roberts once but sold it to George.) Add to that numerous separate sonatas from the likes of Rosen, Goode, Schnabel, Guy, Badura-Skoda, Crawford, Graffman, and Lucchesini. And then there is my own piano, which I use to play most of the sonatas at varying degrees of incompetence, but which provide many of my most satisfying experiences.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on May 14, 2016, 10:43:26 AM
I have the (mostly) stereo Kempff and Backhaus sets, not the  mono ones.

I have Annie Fischer, and agree that she is excellent throughout,but somehow the sum of the parts just does not add up.  I like Gulda (I have his Amadeo cycle)more....but I don't think I have come across any set I would call clearly superior to all the others.

Off the top of my head, I have, besides those four

Schiff
Lewis
Brendel III
Buchbinder
Lortie
Heisdeck
Pollini
Barenboim's most recent cycle
Guy
Plus the partial cycle by Gould, various individual releases, selections from Brendel II, Kovacevich, Ashkenazy,  what Bavouzet has released so far. Gilels sits in my Listening Pile.  And on PI, I have Brautigam and Binns.
In fact, at the moment I am listening to the next to last CD of Binns (Op. 101 and 106)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 14, 2016, 11:21:15 AM
Gulda was not my first cycle, I had the incomplete Gilels before and before that all the better known and probably together about 2/3 of them in recordings by diverse pianists. But I got it early enough to become somewhat imprinted by it and the interpretations opened up some pieces I had found rather tedious with e.g. Gilels. So because of this listening history I will always retain a fondness. Also, as someone who so far was most of his life stuck in some provincial town and lacked funds, resolve and opportunity to travel to concerts, Gulda is one of the few well known pianists I saw live in recital (ca. 1994 or 95 in Berlin, actually before I got the Beethoven set in 98 or 99) which might also explain my fondness.
Now with another 16 years of listening to the music behind me I can see why some don't much care for that cycle and I do not turn towards it as frequently as I used to (and then mainly for the earlier pieces).

Right now I am slowly going through Arrau's and Lucchesini's, both of which I have had for several years but never completely listened to them. Later I might do the same for Heidsieck's. I can see what some people like about Arrau's, and I like some sonatas myself but overall I find he is often rather heavy-handed (not necessarily slow, but sometimes also quite slow) and humorless in the earlier works.

In any case, even conceding that it is somewhat one-sided, I am not sure I have heard a cycle I clearly prefer to Gulda's and I think that it still merits its reputation as one of the standardly recommended Beethoven sonata cycles (along with Schnabel, Backhaus, Kempff, Arrau, Brendel, maybe Fischer and Pollini or what have you).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2016, 11:41:06 PM
I've heard a couple of recordings of Gulda playing 110 live - one from a concert in Montpellier and the other on Hansler. He seems to have made a bit of a speciality of this sonata. Anyway the thing I want to say is that his style is less glib than in the studio recordings. I'm not sure why, you would hardly believe it's the same guy playing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 14, 2016, 11:52:23 PM
The Gulda recital I attended had opp. 13, 110 and 111. As encores he played among other things one of the A flat major P&F (I hardly knew that music back then, so I cannot say whether WTC I or II), maybe another Bach P&F, the finale of Mozart's last piano sonata (which was almost the best thing on that evening) and then started improvising about vaguely viennese stuff (because as he announced he should be on the plane/train to Vienna already). He already appeared somewhat frail for someone in his mid-sixties but really cool (yes he wore that prayer cap thingie).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kontrapunctus on May 26, 2016, 11:33:55 AM
I recently bought Paul Lewis' complete set of Sonatas. While and individual Sonata here and there might be a little more satisfying, overall, it's a hugely enjoyable set and very well recorded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on May 26, 2016, 03:42:04 PM
Among the newer sets of the sonatas I'm very impressed with  20 year old Melodie Zhao on Claves. Hard to believe anyone this young could be outstanding in this music but she certainly is in m opinion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2016, 03:31:33 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on May 26, 2016, 03:42:04 PM
Among the newer sets of the sonatas I'm very impressed with  20 year old Melodie Zhao on Claves. Hard to believe anyone this young could be outstanding in this music but she certainly is in m opinion.

Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 9, 2014 - onward

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Quote...Records are made to be broken, even in classical music. When then 24-year-old Korean HJ Lim recorded the complete Beethoven Sontatas for EMI, released for a tenner on iTunes, it made a splash mostly for audacity. Two years later she is bested in every way: Swiss-Chinese Mélodie Zhao has done it at 19... and much more gratifyingly. This cycle is tastefully individual instead of idiosyncratic, thought-through instead of overwrought, and to the point instead of proving one...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on May 27, 2016, 01:09:27 PM
Todd/Jens---have you listened to the set (recorded live) by Steven Herbert Smith? It was favorably reviewed in ARG a few months ago. Very fine set, which includes the major variations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2016, 12:36:41 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on May 27, 2016, 01:09:27 PM
Todd/Jens---have you listened to the set (recorded live) by Steven Herbert Smith? It was favorably reviewed in ARG a few months ago. Very fine set, which includes the major variations.

I'm not even sure I'm aware of it. (Oh, yes I am. On "Soundwave". Is it even legit?) No... I'll look into at least finding the review. (Perhaps you could help?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2016, 04:55:37 AM
You know Todd. He already wrote about it! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,25680.msg961912.html#msg961912)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 29, 2016, 08:24:52 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 14, 2016, 11:21:15 AM
Gulda was not my first cycle, I had the incomplete Gilels before and before that all the better known and probably together about 2/3 of them in recordings by diverse pianists. But I got it early enough to become somewhat imprinted by it and the interpretations opened up some pieces I had found rather tedious with e.g. Gilels. So because of this listening history I will always retain a fondness. Also, as someone who so far was most of his life stuck in some provincial town and lacked funds, resolve and opportunity to travel to concerts, Gulda is one of the few well known pianists I saw live in recital (ca. 1994 or 95 in Berlin, actually before I got the Beethoven set in 98 or 99) which might also explain my fondness.
Now with another 16 years of listening to the music behind me I can see why some don't much care for that cycle and I do not turn towards it as frequently as I used to (and then mainly for the earlier pieces).

Right now I am slowly going through Arrau's and Lucchesini's, both of which I have had for several years but never completely listened to them. Later I might do the same for Heidsieck's. I can see what some people like about Arrau's, and I like some sonatas myself but overall I find he is often rather heavy-handed (not necessarily slow, but sometimes also quite slow) and humorless in the earlier works.

In any case, even conceding that it is somewhat one-sided, I am not sure I have heard a cycle I clearly prefer to Gulda's and I think that it still merits its reputation as one of the standardly recommended Beethoven sonata cycles (along with Schnabel, Backhaus, Kempff, Arrau, Brendel, maybe Fischer and Pollini or what have you).
I found Gilels so disappointing. I wish I had never bought it...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 29, 2016, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 29, 2016, 08:24:52 AM
I found Gilels so disappointing. I wish I had never bought it...

My first impression was bad. I find I need to be in the right mood for his Beethoven. I think he's at his best in Opuses 2/3, 27/1, 27/2, 81a and 110.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 29, 2016, 09:46:50 AM
Some of Gilels' russian live recordings that are available on Brilliant are more obviously passionate and not as "severe" as the DG recordings (I remember to have been quite impressed with the op.90 from those live ones). I think the DG Gilels can be something of an acquired taste and I would not recommend them as first choice or for beginners; they can be very slow, are always very "controlled", lack humor etc. but they are also quite powerful. Some do not work for me but of the ones that do I often prefer them to other slowish ones like Arrau's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 29, 2016, 10:15:44 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 29, 2016, 09:46:50 AM
Some of Gilels' russian live recordings that are available on Brilliant are more obviously passionate and not as "severe" as the DG recordings (I remember to have been quite impressed with the op.90 from those live ones).

Yeah, some of those live Beethoven sonata recordings in the green BC box are awesome!

QuoteI think the DG Gilels can be something of an acquired taste and I would not recommend them as first choice or for beginners; they can be very slow, are always very "controlled", lack humor etc. but they are also quite powerful. Some do not work for me but of the ones that do I often prefer them to other slowish ones like Arrau's.

Glad to hear this, as I have yet to buy Arrau's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 29, 2016, 11:41:24 AM
There are some similarities in approach between Gilels and Kempff (and also some glaring differences). I'll take Kempff (mono) just about every  time with the exception of 2/3, 27/1, Op 28 and Op 81a. His Op27/1 is the best I've heard from anyone.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 29, 2016, 12:54:18 PM
I have not heard a lot of Kempff but I think his playing is far more lyrical, even "easy-going" compared to Gilels. Gilels sometimes reminds me a little of Klemperer whose Beethoven has been called "granitic".
I disliked some of Gilels after I had heard Gulda but more than 15 years later I am happy to have the DG Gilels for some of its unique features.
I don't remember his op.27 so well but agree with the recommendation of opp. 2/3, 81a and 110. To which I'd probably add opp. 10/3, maybe op.31 and, if one does not insist on humor, op.2/2 and certainly the Eroica variations. If the "green" Brilliant box can still be found cheaply, I'd certainly recommend it. The sound on most of the sonatas is decent (especially for 1970s Russian live), the concertos less so. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2016, 02:24:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 29, 2016, 12:54:18 PM
If the "green" Brilliant box can still be found cheaply, I'd certainly recommend it. The sound on most of the sonatas is decent (especially for 1970s Russian live), the concertos less so.

I don´t remember the sound but the audiences must be some of the most well behaved ever recorded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 02:02:13 PM
I don't remember exactly what prompted it, but I spent much of the previous weekend going through this entire thread! Needless to say, it was quite the journey, and prompted quite a bit of exploring (made easier by the fact that I am a Spotify subscriber, so have access to the majority of cycles discussed). I am relatively new to the sonata cycle as a whole, having heard many of the unnamed sonatas (especially the earlier ones) no more than two or three times, and am slowly but surely familiarizing myself with some of the named and later sonatas. I actually read through much of this thread already a few years ago, and ended up purchasing the Backhaus stereo and Annie Fischer sets. At the time, the next on my list was going to be Gulda Amadeo, but I'm starting to re-think that. In my more recent explorations, I've been most impressed with Lucchesini, Takacs, and Serkin, and least impressed with Arrau, Gilels, and Lim--but I haven't heard any of their sets in total, and don't necessarily trust my initial impressions.

After reading through all these posts, I have many questions, but I'll start with what I suspect is a pretty straightforward one about the much-loved Annie Fischer set. As I mentioned above, it's one of only two of which I own the physical copy. I enjoy much of it for the usual reasons people offer--its power, it's dark, rich Bösendorfer tone, her control of dramatic build-up. etc. Yet, I am also aware of what many consider its flaws (e.g., its having been carefully assembled from multiple takes, and an out-of-tune piano). Now, the first aspect doesn't bother me much--I don't think I would have guessed that the performances were assembled in the studio if I had not read it. I am a bit more concerned about the piano being in tune. I'm actually not musically experienced (or perhaps tonally sensitive) enough to know for sure whether or not an instrument is perfectly in tune, but there are times when I listen to the set and I think I hear the problem, and other times when I don't, which drives me a little crazy.

So here is my question, for those of you who are more knowledgable about such things: are all the performances in Annie's set out of tune, or only some? If it is only some, do you know which ones? The one that sounds the most "off" to me is the "Moonlight" Sonata (no. 14, 27/2)--am I right in this observation? Many others sound perfectly fine to me, and I find it interesting that none of the set's supporters ever mention this problem, so I wonder if it is either very slight or only affects a small number of the sonatas in the set.

Thanks in advance for any responses!  :)

Mark
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on September 08, 2016, 04:10:15 PM
The Beethoven Sonatas thread resident expert has not chimed in lately, and yours is an excellent question. I would suggest you wait until Todd or another one of our esteemed specialists has his say on the subject.

In the meantime, do explore the Eric Heidsieck integral set (EMI) - or at least locate a seller until you decide if a purchase is in  order. It features exceptionally lucid and refined performances which never stint on the energy level. You probably read about it in this thread.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 08, 2016, 04:28:08 PM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 02:02:13 PM
After reading through all these posts, I have many questions, but I'll start with what I suspect is a pretty straightforward one about the much-loved Annie Fischer set. As I mentioned above, it's one of only two of which I own the physical copy. I enjoy much of it for the usual reasons people offer--its power, it's dark, rich Bosendorfer tone, her control of dramatic build-up. etc. Yet, I am also aware of what many consider its flaws (e.g., its having been carefully assembled from multiple takes, and an out-of-tune piano). Now, the first aspect doesn't bother me much--I don't think I would have guessed that the performances were assembled in the studio if I had not read it.

Nor would have I. And even now knowing how they were recorded does not diminish my enjoyment of the set.

QuoteI am a bit more concerned about the piano being in tune. I'm actually not musically experienced (or perhaps tonally sensitive) enough to know for sure whether or not an instrument is perfectly in tune, but there are times when I listen to the set and I think I hear the problem, and other times when I don't, which drives me a little crazy.

So here is my question, for those of you who are more knowledgable about such things: are all the performances in Annie's set out of tune, or only some? If it is only some, do you know which ones? The one that sounds the most "off" to me is the "Moonlight" Sonata (no. 14, 27/2)--am I right in this observation? Many others sound perfectly fine to me, and I find it interesting that none of the set's supporters ever mention this problem, so I wonder if it is either very slight or only affects a small number of the sonatas in the set.

Thanks in advance for any responses!  :)

Mark

I have yet to notice which one(s) are out of tune. And I hope to never find out. If anyone stops by to explain, I plan to stick my fingers in my ear and shout "La, La, La, La!"  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on September 08, 2016, 04:52:46 PM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 02:02:13 PM
...and ended up purchasing the Backhaus stereo ... sets.

... are all the performances in Annie's set out of tune, or only some? If it is only some, do you know which ones? The one that sounds the most "off" to me is the "Moonlight" Sonata (no. 14, 27/2)--am I right in this observation? Many others sound perfectly fine to me, and I find it interesting that none of the set's supporters ever mention this problem, so I wonder if it is either very slight or only affects a small number of the sonatas in the set.


The Backhaus is my choice!

I have never heard the set, but several reviewers have remarked that the piano is out of tune: unfortunately I could not find a reviewer who specifies which sonatas were affected.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: André on September 08, 2016, 04:10:15 PM
The Beethoven Sonatas thread resident expert has not chimed in lately, and yours is an excellent question. I would suggest you wait until Todd or another one of our esteemed specialists has his say on the subject.

In the meantime, do explore the Eric Heidsieck integral set (EMI) - or at least locate a seller until you decide if a purchase is in  order. It features exceptionally lucid and refined performances which never stint on the energy level. You probably read about it in this thread.

Thanks, André! I definitely took note of the praise the Heidsieck set was getting, and the descriptions of it sounded very appealing indeed. Unfortunately, that set is one of the very few that doesn't seem to be available on Spotify, even in part. I think I read that it is up on Youtube, so I may try to preview some of it that way at some point.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 09:21:45 PM
Quote from: George on September 08, 2016, 04:28:08 PM
Nor would have I. And even now knowing how they were recorded does not diminish my enjoyment of the set.

I have yet to notice which one(s) are out of tune. And I hope to never find out. If anyone stops by to explain, I plan to stick my fingers in my ear and shout "La, La, La, La!"  :D

LOL--Understood. I guess I'm glad I'm not the only one for whom those flaws are not particularly obvious. By the way, I really enjoyed your posts throughout the long thread--we seem to have some common preferences. For a while, I thought a big difference was your apparent lack of interest or enthusiasm for the Lucchesini set. But then I saw your more recent posts on the subject in a different thread! :-)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 09:25:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 08, 2016, 04:52:46 PM
The Backhaus is my choice!

I have never heard the set, but several reviewers have remarked that the piano is out of tune: unfortunately I could not find a reviewer who specifies which sonatas were affected.

Thanks, Cato. I really enjoy the Backhaus as well (and it's kind of hard to put my finger on exactly why it seems to connect with me better than many others).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 09, 2016, 06:36:59 AM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 09:21:45 PM
LOL--Understood. I guess I'm glad I'm not the only one for whom those flaws are not particularly obvious. By the way, I really enjoyed your posts throughout the long thread--we seem to have some common preferences. For a while, I thought a big difference was your apparent lack of interest or enthusiasm for the Lucchesini set. But then I saw your more recent posts on the subject in a different thread! :-)

Oh yes, that is a lovely set. I was very lucky to find a nice used copy last year. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 09, 2016, 06:39:41 AM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 09:25:41 PM
Thanks, Cato. I really enjoy the Backhaus as well (and it's kind of hard to put my finger on exactly why it seems to connect with me better than many others).

More than anyone else, he understands the structure of each work. Listening to him is like listening to an experienced traveler, taking you down a well worn path that only they know about. I don't think this is the only way, or even the best way, to play this music, but I am sure glad to have the mono set (for the slightly better performances) and the stereo set (for the much better sound.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on September 09, 2016, 06:53:49 AM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 09:25:41 PM
Thanks, Cato. I really enjoy the Backhaus as well (and it's kind of hard to put my finger on exactly why it seems to connect with me better than many others).

You are quite welcome!  I first heard Backhaus in the 1960's perform the last Sonata, and it was a quasi-spiritual experience.  0:)

Quote from: George on September 09, 2016, 06:39:41 AM
More than anyone else, he understands the structure of each work. Listening to him is like listening to an experienced traveler, taking you down a well worn path that only they know about. I don't think this is the only way, or even the best way, to play this music, but I am sure glad to have the mono set (for the slightly better performances) and the stereo set (for the much better sound.)

George may be right: because Backhaus does indeed understand the structures, more things, perhaps different things, are brought out in his performances, than in others.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 07:57:32 AM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 08, 2016, 09:25:41 PM
Thanks, Cato. I really enjoy the Backhaus as well (and it's kind of hard to put my finger on exactly why it seems to connect with me better than many others).

Gosh, I love Backhaus, too... There's so much Beethoven to choose from, and yet I always return to him. I always say that he shows you the forest for the trees... which, if I had to explain what I mean by that, is an unfortunate way of putting myself. So I won't, hoping that it makes sense.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 09, 2016, 12:29:16 PM
I've listened to the Gulda Amadeo three times through now, trying to understand what others see in the set but can't. I have no problems with tempo (for example the 50s Serkin Waldstein is my favourite) and I can certainly appreciate how technically skilled Gulda is. However the aforementioned connection, whether it's emotional, spiritual or whatever, just isn't there. I'll never listen to it again so I might as well sell it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 09, 2016, 11:45:30 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 09, 2016, 12:29:16 PM
I've listened to the Gulda Amadeo three times through now, trying to understand what others see in the set but can't. I have no problems with tempo (for example the 50s Serkin Waldstein is my favourite) and I can certainly appreciate how technically skilled Gulda is. However the aforementioned connection, whether it's emotional, spiritual or whatever, just isn't there. I'll never listen to it again so I might as well sell it.

I acquired the Gulda Amadeo set on LP more than thirty years ago and later on CD. All in all I have - like you - traversed the set about three times. With time I have become increasingly disappointed with it, missing particularly the emotional connection. And I shall probably not listen to it any more. Guldas earlier mono integral is a bit more "human" ¨, but not sufficiently so to make it truly recommendable to someone, who dislikes the Amadeo set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 01:50:42 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 09, 2016, 11:45:30 PM
I acquired the Gulda Amadeo set on LP more than thirty years ago and later on CD. All in all I have - like you - traversed the set about three times. With time I have become increasingly disappointed with it, missing particularly the emotional connection. And I shall probably not listen to it any more. Guldas earlier mono integral is a bit more "human" ¨, but not sufficiently so to make it truly recommendable to someone, who dislikes the Amadeo set.

Funny you mention this, because I do recognize these feelings... even though I feel less 'harsh' towards the Gulda stereo.
I still take the boxset with me from time to time, for as much listening pleasure as possible on my ole fashioned portable cd-man, during my travelling to work and back home.

But there are other pianists who I admire more in Beethoven. From the older boys and girls, mainly Backhaus, Kempff and Ashtray Annie. Of later generations, I have a weak spot for Louis Lortie. HJ Lim was a bit too wild and uneven for me. The fortepiano set with Bilson et al offers some good listening, too.

I have to admit though, that my collection is quite modest compared to f.i. a certain... Todd. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 02:22:02 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 10, 2016, 01:50:42 AM
Funny you mention this, because I do recognize these feelings... even though I feel less 'harsh' towards the Gulda stereo.
I still take the boxset with me from time to time, for as much listening pleasure as possible on my ole fashioned portable cd-man, during my travelling to work and back home.

But there are other pianists who I admire more in Beethoven. From the older boys and girls, mainly Backhaus, Kempff and Ashtray Annie. Of later generations, I have a weak spot for Louis Lortie. HJ Lim was a bit too wild and uneven for me. The fortepiano set with Bilson et al offers some good listening, too.

I have to admit though, that my collection is quite modest compared to f.i. a certain... Todd. ;)

Oops, I forgot to mention Arrau.
I like his Beethoven, both analog and digital.
Hm, makes a nice modern piano top 5 then, despite my lack of true Beethoven knowledge: Backhaus, Kempff, Fischer (Annie), Arrau and Lortie.
(In no particular order.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 10, 2016, 03:43:59 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 10, 2016, 02:22:02 AM
Oops, I forgot to mention Arrau.
I like his Beethoven, both analog and digital.
Hm, makes a nice modern piano top 5 then, despite my lack of true Beethoven knowledge: Backhaus, Kempff, Fischer (Annie), Arrau and Lortie.
(In no particular order.)

Lack of true Beethoven knowledge or not: Four of your faves are identical to mine, and I only would rate Badura-Skoda (both his recordings) higher than Lortie, whom I rate number 6 -shared with O'Connor.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 10, 2016, 03:59:57 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 10, 2016, 03:43:59 AM
Lack of true Beethoven knowledge or not: Four of your faves are identical to mine, and I only would rate Badura-Skoda (both his recordings) higher than Lortie, whom I rate number 6 -shared with O'Connor.

Have you had a chance to listen to Malcolm Binns yet? (John O'Conner was a Hatto Beethoven pianist, by the way. You know that I'm often impressed by Barington Coupe's taste
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 10, 2016, 04:20:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 10, 2016, 03:59:57 AM
Have you had a chance to listen to Malcolm Binns yet? (John O'Conner was a Hatto Beethoven pianist, by the way. You know that I'm often impressed by Barington Coupe's taste

I got my HIFI kit installed a few days ago, so I have not yet listened to that much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on September 10, 2016, 04:25:59 AM
Didn't we have a similar conversation a few months (or about 2 threadpages) ago...?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 06:04:01 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 10, 2016, 03:43:59 AM
Lack of true Beethoven knowledge or not: Four of your faves are identical to mine, and I only would rate Badura-Skoda (both his recordings) higher than Lortie, whom I rate number 6 -shared with O'Connor.

I 'fear' that knowledge has got nothing to do with this.
There seems to be a certain corresponding element in our taste. :)

Like I said before, compared to Todd (and most likely many other participants in this thread), my Beethoven Klaviersonaten Collection is rather modest.
Who knows, maybe I'm gonna check out O'Conor and Badura-Skoda sometime. Especially the latter 'should' be part of my modest belongings. :)
Another one who's on my wishlist is Richard Goode.

During the last year I've been listening quite a lot to Beethoven's Klavierwerk, you know... (and to Bruckner symphonies btw, but that's another story), which is a rarity for such a (mostly) barocky guy like me. Yesterday evening, for instance, I got myself ready for a good night sleep whilst listening to Pollini's rendering of opus 79 and 81a (from a 'favorite sonatas' twofer), and those performances were great, too. I've also been impressed with his famous 2-cd set with Beet's last sonatas. I like Pollini's crisp approach towards this impressive music. But last year I did a pre-listening to a disc with the opus 2 sonatas, and I wasn't really convinced. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood then. Anyway, Pollini's complete boxset could be another 'wanna-have' in the future. As always, (lack of) money is an important issue here.

Quote from: Jo498 on September 10, 2016, 04:25:59 AM
Didn't we have a similar conversation a few months (or about 2 threadpages) ago...?

:)

Apparently.

I'm not a regular in this thread, but I do predict: there's gonna be a similar conversation in 'due time' again.
I don't mind really. Being a manic regular in Bach's organ thread for a while, I always liked to blabber about 'who's the 'best'?'
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 10, 2016, 07:30:20 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 10, 2016, 06:04:01 AM
There seems to be a certain corresponding element in our taste. :)

We have experienced this quite often.

Quote from: Marc
Who knows, maybe I'm gonna check out O'Conor and Badura-Skoda sometime. Especially the latter 'should' be part of my modest belongings. :)
Another one who's on my wishlist is Richard Goode.

I am not that keen on Goode, finding him somewhat workmanlike. If you want some variation from the established masters, Lucchesini, Heidsieck or Nat might offer more musical value.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 08:21:34 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 10, 2016, 07:30:20 AM
We have experienced this quite often.

I am not that keen on Goode, finding him somewhat workmanlike. If you want some variation from the established masters, Lucchesini, Heidsieck or Nat might offer more musical value.

I've got some 'loose' discs of Lucchesini and Heidsieck.
I should revisit them, but I recall Heidsieck being really good.
His EMI integral is officially OOP for quite some time already, and it's (alas) also not part of the Dutch central library catalogue.
Long time ago, the old mid-price EMI box was grinning at me in a local shop for years and years (and years), but at the time I was already happy with my Kempff and Gulda boxsets, and some loose stuff by Gilels, Brendel and Pollini.
So, I decided to leave it with that.

Hopefully Warner will reissue the Heidsieck boxset, because most of the 2nd hand internet offerings of the old EMI set are too expensive for me.
Besides that... sometimes I want to buy other discs, too, you know. I've got to spread my interests, so to speak.
:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 08:30:04 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 10, 2016, 07:30:20 AM
We have experienced this quite often.

I am not that keen on Goode, finding him somewhat workmanlike. If you want some variation from the established masters, Lucchesini, Heidsieck or Nat might offer more musical value.

I remember going to the record shop when Goode's set was peak-hype... and I wanted it so badly. the store opened the set to let me listen to it... and after a few minutes of op.106 or op.111 I was very considerably calmer about not being able to really afford it. I wasn't much impressed... although I might also have missed something at the time. But it certainly wasn't crystalline Pollini-esque. Eventually I might want to try Heisieck, too, but only if I can find an inexpensive only-the-Beethoven set. For Yves Nat I made an exception and got the box with all his stuff... but filed it under Beethoven and I ignore the rest. Probably at my peril. It's a filing-purity thing. :-)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 08:30:04 AM
I remember going to the record shop when Goode's set was peak-hype... and I wanted it so badly. the store opened the set to let me listen to it... and after a few minutes of op.106 or op.111 I was very considerably calmer about not being able to really afford it. I wasn't much impressed... although I might also have missed something at the time. But it certainly wasn't crystalline Pollini-esque. Eventually I might want to try Heisieck, too, but only if I can find an inexpensive only-the-Beethoven set. For Yves Nat I made an exception and got the box with all his stuff... but filed it under Beethoven and I ignore the rest. Probably at my peril. It's a filing-purity thing. :-)

Do you well-informed men (or women, sorry Stan) know the Garrick Ohlsson recordings?
And, if yes, how do you rate them?
I just discovered that I apparently had them on my PC (thanks to the library), but I forgot all about them.

Right now I'm listening to the first of opus 2, but not in a really concentrated way.
I find the sound a bit hollow, that's all I can say for now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 10, 2016, 08:46:39 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 10, 2016, 08:43:33 AM
Do you well-informed men (or women, sorry Stan) know the Garrick Ohlsson recordings?
And, if yes, how do you rate them?
I just discovered that I apparently had them on my PC (thanks to the library), but I forgot all about them.

Right now I'm listening to the first of opus 2, but not in a really concentrated way.
I find the sound a bit hollow, that's all I can say for now.

I own the set, but have not listened to it yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 09:33:52 AM
Just ordered (library) Yves Nat playing Beethoven, with Pathétique, Mondschein, Waldstein and Appassionata.
Checked some short soundclips before and I thought his playing was very passionate.
Mono sound was a bit floating sometimes, but hey, I should be able to handle that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 10, 2016, 10:41:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 08:30:04 AM
I remember going to the record shop when Goode's set was peak-hype... and I wanted it so badly. the store opened the set to let me listen to it... and after a few minutes of op.106 or op.111 I was very considerably calmer about not being able to really afford it. I wasn't much impressed... although I might also have missed something at the time.

Beethoven's music deserves better than a goode performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 10, 2016, 10:53:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 08:30:04 AM
I remember going to the record shop when Goode's set was peak-hype... and I wanted it so badly. the store opened the set to let me listen to it... and after a few minutes of op.106 or op.111 I was very considerably calmer about not being able to really afford it. I wasn't much impressed... although I might also have missed something at the time. But it certainly wasn't crystalline Pollini-esque. Eventually I might want to try Heisieck, too, but only if I can find an inexpensive only-the-Beethoven set. For Yves Nat I made an exception and got the box with all his stuff... but filed it under Beethoven and I ignore the rest. Probably at my peril. It's a filing-purity thing. :-)
I got the Heidsieck Beethoven only set (8 CDs) from Berkshire Record Outlet $40 used. Definitely worth it, to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on September 10, 2016, 11:45:18 AM
The EMI set can be had for 82$ CAD (approx 60$ US), but I find that a bit steep.

Much better than that is this set

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91wGSko7CmL._SX522_.jpg)


I own it, and that's where I got the Heidsieck sonatas. But wait ! There's more (tadaaamm) !
For a paltry 75$ US (Used-like new) on Amazon this set presents you with some of the gems of Beethoven's discography:

- Symphonies and Overtures by the BP under Cluytens (as good as any for its period).
- Concertos with Gilels (*) and Gelber (piano), Oistrakh (violin).
- Violin Sonatas with Christian Ferras, Cello Sonatas with Tortelier and Heidsieck.
- The piano trios with the Hungarian Trio (great team - hungarian instrumentists of the time towered over their european counterparts)
- The string quartets under the fabled Hungarian Quartet. Believe me, doesn't come any better than this.
- Missa Solemnis under Giulini, Fidelio under Karajan

- And all the bits and ends, chirps from the workbench you'd never spend money for, but hey ! they had to make this into a 50-disc box, so there you have it.

The only con is that cover - so unsexy and old-looking. But that will be our little secret. Just don't show it to your snobbish friends  :laugh:


(*) PS: Gilels recorded some or all the concertos 3 times on EMI. What one hears here are 1, 2 and 4 under Vandernoot (plus the Triple concerto with friends). There were subsequent versions under Leopold Ludwig (warm and very dramatic),  George Szell (formidable in its 'imposing, glacial' meaning). As for the Oistrakh Violin Concerto, he too recorded it more than once. This is the warm, smiling Cluytens performance. Oistrakh re-recorded it later for EMI, this time under Klemperer's frown.

Don't discard this hodge-podge: the piano sonatas and string quartets are among the best ever.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on September 10, 2016, 12:02:59 PM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 11:45:18 AM
Gilels recorded some or all the concertos 3 times on EMI. What one hears here are 1, 2 and 4 under Vandernoot. There were subsequent versions under Leopold Ludwig (warm and very dramatic),  George Szell (formidable in its 'imposing, glacial' meaning).

IMHO, the best Beethoven concertos that Gilels ever recorded are the complete live ones with Kurt Masur and the State Orchestra of the USSR.

(https://img.discogs.com/1hrPcqAsBdODhENsEdtLEnsEUHE=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1301743-1207908907.jpeg.jpg)

Probably the best behaved live audience in the whole history of live recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 10, 2016, 12:24:31 PM
I've got a lot of LvB PS recordings which is why I feel reasonably confident in expressing what I think about various sets. I have Annie Fischer, Barenboim EMI, Kempff mono, Schnabel, Ciani, Brendel VOX, Gulda of course, the near complete Gilels plus Michael Houstoun.

For me, the best sets were never completed. Richter is a pianist I always enjoy in Beethoven but the real tragedy was that Bruce Hungerford never got to finish the 32.

I mainly rely on individual CDs of sonatas when I want to listen to what I currently feel are the best recordings and can also use both Spotify and YouTube.

There was a thread a few years ago where we were invited to state our preferred version of the individual sonatas. It might now be interesting to see what I wrote then.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 10, 2016, 12:48:44 PM
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2016, 12:02:59 PM
IMHO, the best Beethoven concertos that Gilels ever recorded are the complete live ones with Kurt Masur and the State Orchestra of the USSR.

(https://img.discogs.com/1hrPcqAsBdODhENsEdtLEnsEUHE=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1301743-1207908907.jpeg.jpg)

Probably the best behaved live audience in the whole history of live recordings.

There's a live performance of a sonata or two in that set that changed mind about Gilels being a laid back, mellow performer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 10, 2016, 12:58:55 PM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 11:45:18 AM
The EMI set can be had for 82$ CAD (approx 60$ US), but I find that a bit steep.

Much better than that is this set

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91wGSko7CmL._SX522_.jpg)


I own it, and that's where I got the Heidsieck sonatas. But wait ! There's more (tadaaamm) !
For a paltry 75$ US (Used-like new) on Amazon this set presents you with some of the gems of Beethoven's discography:

- Symphonies and Overtures by the BP under Cluytens (as good as any for its period).


- Concertos with Gilels (*) and Gelber (piano), Oistrakh (violin).
- Violin Sonatas with Christian Ferras, Cello Sonatas with Tortelier and Heidsieck.
- The piano trios with the Hungarian Trio (great team - hungarian instrumentists of the time towered over their european counterparts)
- The string quartets under the fabled Hungarian Quartet. Believe me, doesn't come any better than this.
- Missa Solemnis under Giulini, Fidelio under Karajan

- And all the bits and ends, chirps from the workbench you'd never spend money for, but hey ! they had to make this into a 50-disc box, so there you have it.

The only con is that cover - so unsexy and old-looking. But that will be our little secret. Just don't show it to your snobbish friends  :laugh:


(*) PS: Gilels recorded some or all the concertos 3 times on EMI. What one hears here are 1, 2 and 4 under Vandernoot (plus the Triple concerto with friends). There were subsequent versions under Leopold Ludwig (warm and very dramatic),  George Szell (formidable in its 'imposing, glacial' meaning). As for the Oistrakh Violin Concerto, he too recorded it more than once. This is the warm, smiling Cluytens performance. Oistrakh re-recorded it later for EMI, this time under Klemperer's frown.

Don't discard this hodge-podge: the piano sonatas and string quartets are among the best ever.

This is very tempting indeed, though I already own the Cluytens symphony set (and am in the camp that prefers Cluytens's interpretations to those of several more famous conductors of the period).

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 02:29:36 PM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 11:45:18 AM
The EMI set can be had for 82$ CAD (approx 60$ US), but I find that a bit steep.

Much better than that is this set

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91wGSko7CmL._SX522_.jpg)


I own it, and that's where I got the Heidsieck sonatas. But wait ! There's more (tadaaamm) !
For a paltry 75$ US (Used-like new) on Amazon this set presents you with some of the gems of Beethoven's discography:

- Symphonies and Overtures by the BP under Cluytens (as good as any for its period).
- Concertos with Gilels (*) and Gelber (piano), Oistrakh (violin).
- Violin Sonatas with Christian Ferras, Cello Sonatas with Tortelier and Heidsieck.
- The piano trios with the Hungarian Trio (great team - hungarian instrumentists of the time towered over their european counterparts)
- The string quartets under the fabled Hungarian Quartet. Believe me, doesn't come any better than this.
- Missa Solemnis under Giulini, Fidelio under Karajan

- And all the bits and ends, chirps from the workbench you'd never spend money for, but hey ! they had to make this into a 50-disc box, so there you have it.

The only con is that cover - so unsexy and old-looking. But that will be our little secret. Just don't show it to your snobbish friends  :laugh:


(*) PS: Gilels recorded some or all the concertos 3 times on EMI. What one hears here are 1, 2 and 4 under Vandernoot (plus the Triple concerto with friends). There were subsequent versions under Leopold Ludwig (warm and very dramatic),  George Szell (formidable in its 'imposing, glacial' meaning). As for the Oistrakh Violin Concerto, he too recorded it more than once. This is the warm, smiling Cluytens performance. Oistrakh re-recorded it later for EMI, this time under Klemperer's frown.

Don't discard this hodge-podge: the piano sonatas and string quartets are among the best ever.

Wait, are you and this guy the same guy? I was just going to use your example to counter... you. :-)

Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 11:07:54 AM
I forgot: I kept Kubelik and Levine's quasi cycle (RCA).

I did like Chailly in some of the symphonies (the 6th in particular has a high ooomph level). But what I'm after in a cycle is a point of view that is clear, consistent and easily distinguishable from others. That brings my level of understanding to a higher level, and sharpens my understanding of the music.

For the same reason as Chailly's Mahler, I recently discarded Colin Davis' Staatskapelle cycle of the Beethoven symphonies. Although it contains what is possibly the best Eroica I know. I'll repurchase it as a single. Having it alone in my collection will confer it its true meaning. Buried in a solid but comfy, laid back cycle of the 9 deprives it of its special stature.

I don't want the symphonies... the Hungarians I suppose I do want, but I could get them from Regis, probably... the Ferras I probably would like to hear... none of the concertos strike me as interesting. And then there's that thing where I just don't want those recordings that I truly care for buried in a solid but comfy, laid back cycle of 50 random masterworks, since that would deprive 'em of their special stature.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on September 10, 2016, 04:23:30 PM
Good shot  :D. I guess I struck a certain chord here  :laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on September 10, 2016, 04:45:56 PM
The only complaint I have about that EMI France set is the crappy packaging: a flimsy cardboard cube with track listings and paper envelopes for the CDs. Nothing more.
But the Heisdick and the chamber works are worth the price.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on September 10, 2016, 06:47:05 PM
Indeed, that's what you get. Nothing more. And nothing less either.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 10, 2016, 06:58:03 PM
George, Cato and Jens,

(I would quote your earlier posts directly, but can't figure out how do do multiple quotations from beyond the most recent page).

Very interesting (and remarkably consistent) explanations for the appeal of Backhaus. You each seem to be saying the he understands the overall structure of the work in ways that adds something unusual to his performances. I'm curious as to whether any of you has any sense of what that "big picture" knowledge allows him to do, more specifically? Do most other pianists (in your opinions) mischaracterize early movements (or earlier sections of movements) because they are insufficiently conscious of what is coming up later? Or do you mean more that decades of playing has given him a different intuitive feel that cannot be explained?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 10, 2016, 07:12:29 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 02:29:36 PM

... the Hungarians [Bethoven quartets] :o I  suppose I do want, but I could get them from Regis, probably...

The recording on Regis (mono from the 1950s) is different from the recording on EMI (stereo from the 1960s).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 10, 2016, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 10, 2016, 06:58:03 PMVery interesting (and remarkably consistent) explanations for the appeal of Backhaus. You each seem to be saying the he understands the overall structure of the work in ways that adds something unusual to his performances. I'm curious as to whether any of you has any sense of what that "big picture" knowledge allows him to do, more specifically?

It allows him to confidently take the listener through each work, without spending too much time sniffing any one flower. It results, in at least this listener's experience, in the listener feeling as though they are in knowing hands. This, in turn, gives the listener a better understanding of the overall structure of the work. It's as if Backhaus is inside of the music, so much so that he can pull you inside as well. Sure, many other pianists have played this music more beautifully, more intense, but to me, no one was more inside this music than Backhaus. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 10, 2016, 09:39:19 PM
Quote from: George on September 10, 2016, 10:41:41 AM
Beethoven's music deserves better than a goode performance.

Goode certainly isn't "bad" enough to deserve the doormat treatment, here. ::) (Not singling you out, George). He may not be an extrovert like some of the others but for my money he has the keenest poetic sense of the lot. "Poetic" goes a long way for me in keeping this overexposed music fresh and vital, as opposed to force-feeding me with some new "angle" or whatnot.

If nothing else he certainly gets good press in many other corners of the classical world. Apparently though that counts against him on this thread, at least for some, anyway.

I've always viewed him as an unassuming sort who records little, has no cult following, sticks to a tiny label, yet somehow manages to invoke the ire of the "Beethoven-sonata-loving" crowd to no end! :blank:

More power to him, I say! ;D 


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on September 11, 2016, 02:06:01 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 10, 2016, 09:39:19 PM
Goode certainly isn't "bad" enough to deserve the doormat treatment, here. ::) (Not singling you out, George). He may not be an extrovert like some of the others but for my money he has the keenest poetic sense of the lot. "Poetic" goes a long way for me in keeping this overexposed music fresh and vital, as opposed to force-feeding me with some new "angle" or whatnot.

If nothing else he certainly gets good press in many other corners of the classical world. Apparently though that counts against him on this thread, at least for some, anyway.

I've always viewed him as an unassuming sort who records little, has no cult following, sticks to a tiny label, yet somehow manages to invoke the ire of the "Beethoven-sonata-loving" crowd to no end! :blank:

More power to him, I say! ;D

Hear, hear!

It's also nice to see John O'Conor getting some love.

;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 11, 2016, 06:07:18 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 10, 2016, 09:39:19 PM
Goode certainly isn't "bad" enough to deserve the doormat treatment, here. ::) (Not singling you out, George). He may not be an extrovert like some of the others but for my money he has the keenest poetic sense of the lot. "Poetic" goes a long way for me in keeping this overexposed music fresh and vital, as opposed to force-feeding me with some new "angle" or whatnot.

I actually don't find him lacking in extroversion. And I agree poetic sense is important. I just find more poetry in Schnabel, Kempff, Gilels and Lucchesini's Beethoven. And for the record I don't dislike Goode's Beethoven, I just like others more. 

QuoteIf nothing else he certainly gets good press in many other corners of the classical world. Apparently though that counts against him on this thread, at least for some, anyway.

His popularity doesn't count against him for me. (You may already know that.)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 11, 2016, 07:22:08 AM
Quote from: George on September 11, 2016, 06:07:18 AM
I actually don't find him lacking in extroversion. And I agree poetic sense is important. I just find more poetry in Schnabel, Kempff, Gilels and Lucchesini's Beethoven. And for the record I don't dislike Goode's Beethoven, I just like others more.

Yes, Gilels is definitely up there in terms of poetry. I should've mentioned him.

QuoteHis popularity doesn't count against him for me. (You may already know that.)

That's goode! ;)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 11, 2016, 07:23:58 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 11, 2016, 02:06:01 AM
It's also nice to see John O'Conor getting some love.

+1



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 07:56:22 AM
I'm reading great things on Lucchesini's Beethoven in this thread, despite being the pianist quite unknown (well, if compared to Schnabel, Kempff, Gilels, and so on).
Anyway, I'm getting more and more curious, and I am really thinking of getting his Beethoven box set. The problem is...the price! $800.00 (used) on Amazon! :o

I still have some hopes: I also found out that the whole set is dowloadable from PrestoClassical for "only" £73.00 (CD quality FLAC) but my question now is: is it worth? I have never paid so much for a downloading. I already have many (at least for me) complete sets: Backhaus, Arrau, Annie Fischer, Barenboim, Goode, Lewis, Pollini, and I'n not so sure I'd pay about €90.00 (or $100.00) for another set, in FLAC files only.
But my curiosity is growing ...  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 11, 2016, 08:21:51 AM
Quote from: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 07:56:22 AM
I still have some hopes: I also found out that the whole set is dowloadable from PrestoClassical for "only" £73.00 (CD quality FLAC) but my question now is: is it worth? I have never paid so much for a downloading. I already have many (at least for me) complete sets: Backhaus, Arrau, Annie Fischer, Barenboim, Goode, Lewis, Pollini, and I'n not so sure I'd pay about €90.00 (or $100.00) for another set, in FLAC files only.
But my curiosity is growing ...  ::)

If you mean, it is worth it? Is the music making that good? If that is what you mean, then YES. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on September 11, 2016, 08:31:37 AM
In my general experience (not speaking of this set specifically):
with some patience one will eventually find offers with lower prices of the recordings on one´s want-lists,
or they will be released on a budget label.

BTW there are cheaper prices for the box set, just to illustrate my point

http://www.sunrisemusic.com.hk/page.php?title=middle-03-sales&offset=30 ($85)
https://www.amazon.co.jp/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Andrea-Lucchesini/dp/B00IFCWDSW ($155)

If you already have a considerable music- or Beethoven collection, no additional recording is worth $800, unless money isn´t really a problem at all, IMHO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on September 11, 2016, 08:39:18 AM
I think I got that big Beethoven box a few years ago for 40 or 50 EUR which was a pretty good deal. I am not that wild about the Cluytens  and the concerti could probably obtained separately by the same artist (LvB #4 is Gilels/Ludwig, Vandernoot only conducts 1+2). I am not even through with the Heidsieck (and not quite sure I share the enthusiasm). But it is certainly worth for getting Heidsieck (if one wants them) and the violin and cello sonatas are excellent (they can be had fairly cheaply from French EMI). There are too many great recordings of the quartets to make the Hungarian quartet stick out but they are definitely worthwhile. The string trios are also excellent, the piano trios good enough (although I wonder if they might have reversed channels or a strange seating, the violin seems to the right, not left) I'd also say that Giulini's C major mass is among the better recordings of this piece (for the Christ on the Mount of Olives there is even less competition). And the bunch of songs with the still young Fi-Di (late 50s recordings) are worth having as well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 09:04:20 AM
Quote from: George on September 11, 2016, 08:21:51 AM
If you mean, it is worth it? Is the music making that good? If that is what you mean, then YES.

Yes, exactly, it's what I mean. Thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 09:13:07 AM
Quote from: Turner on September 11, 2016, 08:31:37 AM
In my general experience (not speaking of this set specifically):
with some patience one will eventually find offers with lower prices of the recordings on one´s want-lists,
or they will be released on a budget label.

BTW there are cheaper prices for the box set, just to illustrate my point

http://www.sunrisemusic.com.hk/page.php?title=middle-03-sales&offset=30 ($85)
https://www.amazon.co.jp/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Andrea-Lucchesini/dp/B00IFCWDSW ($155)

If you already have a considerable music- or Beethoven collection, no additional recording is worth $800, unless money isn´t really a problem at all, IMHO.

The Hong Kong deal looks very good, thanks! Just cannot find if they ship to Europe. Have you/anybody tried them?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on September 11, 2016, 09:15:45 AM
Quote from: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 09:13:07 AM
The Hong Kong deal looks very good, thanks! Just cannot find if they ship to Europe. Have you/anybody tried them?

I´m afraid not.
I have good experiences with lesser known dealers in Europe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 11, 2016, 10:15:28 AM
Quote from: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 09:13:07 AM
The Hong Kong deal looks very good, thanks! Just cannot find if they ship to Europe. Have you/anybody tried them?

I haven't trued them, but I have had superb service from amazon.jp direct.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 11, 2016, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 07:56:22 AM
I'm reading great things on Lucchesini's Beethoven in this thread, despite being the pianist quite unknown (well, if compared to Schnabel, Kempff, Gilels, and so on).
Anyway, I'm getting more and more curious, and I am really thinking of getting his Beethoven box set. The problem is...the price! $800.00 (used) on Amazon! :o

I still have some hopes: I also found out that the whole set is dowloadable from PrestoClassical for "only" £73.00 (CD quality FLAC) but my question now is: is it worth? I have never paid so much for a downloading. I already have many (at least for me) complete sets: Backhaus, Arrau, Annie Fischer, Barenboim, Goode, Lewis, Pollini, and I'n not so sure I'd pay about €90.00 (or $100.00) for another set, in FLAC files only.
But my curiosity is growing ...  ::)

Hi GioCar - I've been 'eyeing' that Lucchesini set for a number of years but obviously OOP at those prices; even the DL price quoted above is exorbitant in my opinion as is the obvious 'rip off' used offering - plan to just wait, plenty of other great 'fish in the pond' to enjoy - ;)  Dave
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 11, 2016, 07:42:41 PM
Quote from: GioCar on September 11, 2016, 07:56:22 AM
I'm reading great things on Lucchesini's Beethoven in this thread, despite being the pianist quite unknown (well, if compared to Schnabel, Kempff, Gilels, and so on).
Anyway, I'm getting more and more curious, and I am really thinking of getting his Beethoven box set. The problem is...the price! $800.00 (used) on Amazon! :o

I still have some hopes: I also found out that the whole set is dowloadable from PrestoClassical for "only" £73.00 (CD quality FLAC) but my question now is: is it worth? I have never paid so much for a downloading. I already have many (at least for me) complete sets: Backhaus, Arrau, Annie Fischer, Barenboim, Goode, Lewis, Pollini, and I'n not so sure I'd pay about €90.00 (or $100.00) for another set, in FLAC files only.
But my curiosity is growing ...  ::)

In my sampling of various sets, none have stood out to me quite as much as Lucchesini's. No one sounds quite like him to me, though of the ones you have, it is probably closest in style to Goode. I feel like the "old master" artwork chosen for his set functions as a remarkably apt metaphor for his style--flowing, unbroken lines displaying an almost sensuous ebb and flow, conveying a strong, muscular subject with an almost liquid sense of delicacy. I feel like Lucchesini displays the lightness and elegance of touch associated with Kempff (and Goode, to some extent), but what strikes me as a greater sense of tension and urgency--I feel a stronger sense of narrative flow with Lucchesini than with many (even most) others. The biggest downside to me is the sonics. Others (including George) have praised the set for good sound, but I hear the live presentation as relatively woolly and reverberant--I wish I could hear him with the kind of sonics we get in Peter Takacs's (or even Backhaus's) studio recordings. Admittedly, this is through 320 kbs streaming on Spotify, but that usually presents a reasonably fair representation of the overall  CD sonics. In spite of my reservations about the sound, I too will be on the lookout for a good deal on this set, because I find the performances so extraordinary.

That said, I don't think I have the experience with the sonatas at this point to be a particularly reliable judge of performance quality. If you can find Todd's original, long review of the set, I think that would give you a great sense of whether or not it would be worth a certain price to you--his descriptions were incredibly detailed (and fit remarkably well with my own perceptions of the set). Unfortunately, I can't find a link by doing a search on "Lucchesini"--I believe the review was on an older (and non-searchable?) version of the site, and I stumbled across it indirectly via a link from another thread (that I don't recall). If anyone can help with the link (or a better way to search for it), that would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 11, 2016, 08:53:41 PM
Here is Todd's Lucchesini review on the old forum. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,3979.0.html)




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on September 12, 2016, 12:14:27 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 11, 2016, 08:53:41 PM
Here is Todd's Lucchesini review on the old forum. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,3979.0.html)
Oh, I didn't know there was an "old forum"... Thanks for the link  :)
I have some doubts re a re-issue of this set at a lower price...I know Stradivarius a bit (actually they have their offices and record store not far from where I live) and I don't remember of any reissues of their recordings. I think I'm going to buy the downloads from PrestoClassical. At least they are in CD quality.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on September 12, 2016, 12:31:07 AM
I tend to agree with NorthNYMark wrt sonics on the Lucchesini although it does not bother me that much and while somewhat too reverbrant it is a beautiful and fairly realistic sound, I'd say.
It is a worthwhile set but I would not go out of my way and pay big bucks (that is, considerably more than another newish recording would cost) for it.

Another nitpick is that I find him very inconsistent in obeying repeats (I can be somewhat anal about that). I find the first movement of the first sonata simply too short without any repeats and I generally cannot understand why he plays some repeats and skips others. It might have to do with the live setting sometimes but hardly in the case of op.2/1i where this is just two pages or about a minute of music (he does play the repeat in op.106i...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: hpowders on September 15, 2016, 06:01:36 AM
For me, the great Hungarian pianist Annie Fischer, in her complete set, scales the heights more consistently than any other pianist I have ever listened to.

I enthusiastically recommend the set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 15, 2016, 07:36:10 AM
Quote from: El Píthi on September 15, 2016, 06:01:36 AM
For me, the great Hungarian pianist Annie Fischer, in her complete set, scales the heights more consistently than any other pianist I have ever listened to.

I enthusiastically recommend the set.

Well, since you're new to the forum - the Annie Fischer recommendation is one all of us know (I own the set convinced to purchase years ago by George) - if you search this particular thread w/ her name (which I just did), there are 141 hits!  Included in those hits is Todd's (one of our most esteemed Beethoven piano sonatas experts) listing (top ten shown below - if interested in those below this listing, check the date of his post).  Dave :)

QuoteTop Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

« Message by Todd on January 31, 2015, 04:29:31 PM »
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on October 02, 2016, 03:51:44 PM
For a current sonata cycle (not complete yet but surely will be) I very much like the one by James Brawn. I'm also fond of the Jumppanen set, which will be complete very soon.  Both in state of the art sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 04, 2016, 10:05:43 AM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 11, 2016, 07:42:41 PM
That said, I don't think I have the experience with the sonatas at this point to be a particularly reliable judge of performance quality. If you can find Todd's original, long review of the set, I think that would give you a great sense of whether or not it would be worth a certain price to you--his descriptions were incredibly detailed (and fit remarkably well with my own perceptions of the set). Unfortunately, I can't find a link by doing a search on "Lucchesini"--I believe the review was on an older (and non-searchable?) version of the site, and I stumbled across it indirectly via a link from another thread (that I don't recall). If anyone can help with the link (or a better way to search for it), that would be much appreciated.

I appreciate Todd's posts too (and I trust him more than some of the people who get paid to write about music), but nobody is the be-all and end-all of judging performances for everybody else. Trust your own ears!

GioCar: Lucchesini is on spotify. I'd certainly check that out before dropping $100 for a download.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on October 04, 2016, 10:39:03 AM
I have never even heard of Sherman and Pienaar... these are eccentric choices and the Lucchesini is not well known or well distributed either. The list might be based on a lot of listening but it is certainly not a consensus. The most famous or  most frequently discussed/recommended Beethoven sonata cycles (these are not my recommendations but what one will find usually mentioned) are probably

Schnabel
Backhaus (any)
Kempff (any, probably slight edge to the mono)
Arrau (Philips 1960s)
Gulda (amadeo 1967)
Brendel (any, probably the 1970s is the best known)
(maybe) Annie Fischer (published late/posthumously and more of an insider rec)

Then probably the incomplete one by Gilels and whatever Serkin and Richter recorded of the sonatas
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on October 04, 2016, 11:52:25 AM
Quote from: Pat B on October 04, 2016, 10:05:43 AM

GioCar: Lucchesini is on spotify. I'd certainly check that out before dropping $100 for a download.

Thanks. I'm still waiting for the price to go down, but your suggestion seems very wise.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: merlin on October 07, 2016, 01:54:55 PM
They are all available at youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blpSgjODwkQ&list=PLbaLbEeppLAvL1toxHx6QxfTHTPNyKlPd
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on October 08, 2016, 12:51:31 PM
Quote from: merlin on October 07, 2016, 01:54:55 PM
They are all available at youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blpSgjODwkQ&list=PLbaLbEeppLAvL1toxHx6QxfTHTPNyKlPd

They are also available on Spotify. I really like what I am hearing the more sonatas I choose to listen to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on October 08, 2016, 01:38:56 PM
I just listened to the first movement of op.2/1... and there's no exposition repeat. Aargh.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on October 08, 2016, 04:35:33 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 04, 2016, 10:39:03 AM
I have never even heard of Sherman and Pienaar... these are eccentric choices and the Lucchesini is not well known or well distributed either. The list might be based on a lot of listening but it is certainly not a consensus. The most famous or  most frequently discussed/recommended Beethoven sonata cycles (these are not my recommendations but what one will find usually mentioned) are probably

Schnabel
Backhaus (any)
Kempff (any, probably slight edge to the mono)
Arrau (Philips 1960s)
Gulda (amadeo 1967)
Brendel (any, probably the 1970s is the best known)
(maybe) Annie Fischer (published late/posthumously and more of an insider rec)

Then probably the incomplete one by Gilels and whatever Serkin and Richter recorded of the sonatas

If I recall correctly, these recommendations are based on the request for sets recorded during the last 15 years. From that perspective, they may not strike you as quite so eccentric.[EDIT--whoops! I got this thread confused with another where someone was asking for recommendations for sets from this millennium].
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 11:06:00 PM
The list quoted from Todd in #3555 are "all time favorites". And Sherman and Pienaar as well as Lucchesini and Heidsieck are rather excentric in such a list. Only Pienaar is recent, Sherman's were recorded in the 1990s (like the last Brendel or Kovacevich) and Lucchesini appeared around 2000.
Which is no problem at all, I just mentioned this to put it in perspective because someone wrote this list was "almost consensus". There is no consensus about such things and there are highly recommended recordings further down the list; e.g. Schnabel, Arrau, Brendel, all of which are at least as "standard recommendations" as Backhaus or Kempff.

If one asks for recent recordings I never know if one has already heard most of the old stuff or thinks mainly about sound quality.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on October 11, 2016, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 11:06:00 PM
The list quoted from Todd in #3555 are "all time favorites". And Sherman and Pienaar as well as Lucchesini and Heidsieck are rather excentric in such a list. Only Pienaar is recent, Sherman's were recorded in the 1990s (like the last Brendel or Kovacevich) and Lucchesini appeared around 2000.
Which is no problem at all, I just mentioned this to put it in perspective because someone wrote this list was "almost consensus". There is no consensus about such things and there are highly recommended recordings further down the list; e.g. Schnabel, Arrau, Brendel, all of which are at least as "standard recommendations" as Backhaus or Kempff.

If one asks for recent recordings I never know if one has already heard most of the old stuff or thinks mainly about sound quality.
Sorry, you are right--I added a line to my previous post to acknowledge that I got this discussion confused with one that was going on concurrently in a different thread.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aquablob on October 12, 2016, 06:06:44 PM
We have an embarrassment of riches in this repertory, don't we? I've heard 25-30 complete or nearly complete sets, plus various recordings by maybe another dozen pianists, and I really like pretty much all of it. It's hard to go wrong!

I suppose if I had to pick 5 complete sets, I might go with Arrau I, Brendel II, Kempff I, Gulda II, and Schiff.

If Solomon, Richter, Gilels, or Hungerford had recorded complete cycles, they'd probably be in contention.

Hey, has Angela Hewitt finished recording her cycle? I haven't heard any of her Beethoven yet, but I've always found her to be an interesting musician.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on October 13, 2016, 02:18:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 11:06:00 PM
If one asks for recent recordings I never know if one has already heard most of the old stuff or thinks mainly about sound quality.

Since we are in the 'Great Recordings' sub-board it seems quite reasonable if sound quality is given high priority.  Although I grew up with recordings by Backhaus and Kempff I would nowadays rather listen to Takacs' Bösendorfer or Hewitt's Fazioli.  I might make an exception for Gould though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Martin Lind on October 16, 2016, 12:25:04 PM
I like Arthur Schnabels complete set. Of course it has awfull sound, but is the pioneering recording, the very first complete recording. I don't like the Gulda very much which is very sober, but I like the first set of Brendel when Brendel was very young, a very enjoyable set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 16, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
Quote from: Martin Lind on October 16, 2016, 12:25:04 PM
I like the first set of Brendel when Brendel was very young, a very enjoyable set.
I agree, the Phillips set is pretty darn awful, really unimaginative and perfunctory in my opinion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Old Listener on October 16, 2016, 11:40:14 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 16, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
I agree, the Phillips set is pretty darn awful, really unimaginative and perfunctory in my opinion.

Brendel recorded two complete sets for Philips.  Which one are you referring to?

I have the later (digitally recorded) set and find it to be very worthwhile.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 25, 2016, 05:15:45 AM
Just got the Heidsieck EMI integral (yes!), and I'm listening to the E flat opus 7 right now. The first movement immediately got me on the edge of my seat. Very expressive!
2nd movement is very convincing, too, and the same goes for 3 & 4. Everything sounds imaginative and inspired, I must say. The finale really made me smile a lot. And the sound is crystal clear.
It's too soon to call, but I guess I'm gonna be happy with this one...

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on October 25, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Quote from: Marc on October 25, 2016, 05:15:45 AM
Just got the Heidsieck EMI integral ...It's too soon to call, but I guess I'm gonna be happy with this one...

Heidsieck's Beethoven has always been among my favorites for this music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2016, 03:30:19 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71BujI55RZL._SY425_.jpg)


Some museum-grade Beethoven from Steven Osborne.  As with pretty much every other disc I've heard from Mr Osborne, this one seems to have every note played at just the right volume and tempo, and in perfect relation to every other note.  While that ends up robbing the playing of some spontaneity, the disc is nonetheless excellent.

It reaches its apex of excellence in Op 106, which opens the disc.  Osborne's is very much of the fleet, energetic variety.  The opening movement is a brisk 9'41", and Osborne delivers.  And he keeps it swift throughout, with a taut, tense seventeen minute Adagio.  Both Op 101 and Op 90 also remain taut and quick, and Osborne plays the opener to Op 90 in intense fashion, and creates a sort of late LvB-lite sound for Op 101.  If it lacks ultimate heft or depth, it makes up for it with a perfectly sculpted sound and feel.

I have only one beef with the disc: sound.  Sonics are great overall.  Maybe too great.  There is piano mechanism noise to be heard throughout.  It sounds like the damper mechanisms were not as silent as they could be, and are audible throughout.  This is more of a problem with dome tweeters than ribbon tweeters, and it is far less noticeable through headphones.  The microphones picked up too much, it seems.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 18, 2016, 12:24:02 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81UVA1yZItL._SX425_.jpg)


The last volume of Jean-Efflam's Bavouzet is stylistically like the first two volumes.  It is very French.  It may be the Frenchest cycle yet, Frencher even than Yves Nat or Georges Pludermacher.  By French I mean that the playing is generally light, generally swift, and more about surface playing than great depth.  There's comparatively little in the way of grand gesture or idiosyncratic waywardness.  This approach paid dividends in the first volume, less in the second, and less yet here.

The set covers sonatas from Op 54 to the end, and starting with Op 54, there's a lack of intensity and bite where there often is much more.  The opening movements of both Op 54 and 90 are a bit restrained.  Op 57 can best be described as athletic.  (The great Robert Casadesus offers a French Appassionata more down my alley.)  The opener of 106 is small in scale.  The first movement of 111 lacks bite, though it is peppy.  Op 81a is emotionally cool, which is not necessarily a problem, but it just doesn't pop.  The biggest problem comes in the late sonatas.  As already mentioned, 106 is small of scale in the fast movements, and doesn't delve much below the surface in the slow movement.  Opp 109 and 110, while nicely played and brisk, never establish a late LvB soundworld, and they sound more middle period.  The opening and Arietta of 111 are both good for their style, but as the second movement progresses, one hears uncommonly mechanical "little stars" and clean but kind of dull chains of trills.  Somehow, even the acciaccatura in Op 79 seems a bit mechanical and humorless. 

Sound is excellent, if a bit small in scale.

The cycle starts off strong, but doesn't end well.  Probably fourth tier overall for me.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on November 18, 2016, 01:40:11 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 18, 2016, 12:24:02 PM
Opp 109 and 110, while nicely played and brisk, never establish a late LvB soundworld, and they sound more middle period.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look out for this!  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 29, 2016, 01:21:45 PM
(https://www.laboiteamusique.eu/covers/large/5410939707324.jpg)


Another cycle from the past resurrected.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 05:35:59 AM
Quote from: -abe- on November 29, 2016, 09:47:31 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErVqp7j3I9Y#t=5m44s

I love this movement sooooooooooo much [the variations in op 109.]

Does anyone know the score well enough to say whether Backhaus in this clip, or indeed anyone else, is following Beethoven's stated or implied tempos in the variations? The reason I ask is that someone said to me that the only recording he knows which does so is Afanassiev's Moscow recital. Is that right?

Recall that a similar issue occurs for the variations in op 111/ii
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on November 30, 2016, 05:52:49 AM
Unlike op.111 in op.109 almost every variation has a new tempo (but mostly vague words, not Metronome markings or clear relations:

Thema: Gesangvoll, mit innigster Empfindung (Andante molto cantabile ed espressivo)*
I: molto espressivo (usually understood as slightly slower than the theme)
II: Leggieramente (a fair bit faster)
III: Allegro vivace 2/4 (very fast)
IV: Etwas langsamer als das Thema [slightly slower than the theme] 9/8
than the numbering stops, the fugato (Var. V) has Allegro ma non troppo 2/2, than from bar 160 "Tempo I del tema" and of course again 3/4 time.

So there would be a lot of "implying" to do to get unique tempo relationships... I think many are not quite returning to Tempo I at the end because the "apotheosis" is more effective starting at a slower tempo. I think I prefer also IV rather slow.

*this is from the Peters score, I do not know if Beethoven himself also provided the italian titles. I think I read in some book on Beethoven that "(mit) innigste(r) Empfindung" (elsewhere translated as "con intimissimo sentimento") was very different from "molto espressivo", "innig" literally meaning sth. like "inward", almost the opposite of "espressivo" (literally translated).
Although it was at Beethoven's time "innig" used to express emotional relationships (innige Liebe). It is an old-fashioned, almost obsolete word nowadays, probably an inward but intense feeling or sth. like that is closest to the 19th century meaning.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 01, 2016, 02:59:56 AM
Yes, op.109 does not have the kinds of tempo issues that op.111 has.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Amore di Viola on December 03, 2016, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 04, 2016, 10:39:03 AM
I have never even heard of Sherman and Pienaar... these are eccentric choices and the Lucchesini is not well known or well distributed either. The list might be based on a lot of listening but it is certainly not a consensus. The most famous or  most frequently discussed/recommended Beethoven sonata cycles (these are not my recommendations but what one will find usually mentioned) are probably

Schnabel
Backhaus (any)
Kempff (any, probably slight edge to the mono)
Arrau (Philips 1960s)
Gulda (amadeo 1967)
Brendel (any, probably the 1970s is the best known)
(maybe) Annie Fischer (published late/posthumously and more of an insider rec)

Then probably the incomplete one by Gilels and whatever Serkin and Richter recorded of the sonatas

Can I ask what you mean, when you describe Annie Fischer's cycle as an 'insider rec'? As I understand it, they were a kind of work-in-progress for her, recorded over many years but not published in her lifetime. Is that what you are referring to?
I am halfway through her cycle and have now bought Schiff for comparison, I really enjoy his 'lectures' on Youtube.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 03, 2016, 12:31:21 PM
Yes, I was partly referring to the posthumous publication but mainly that stuff like Schnabel, Backhaus, Gulda, Brendel, Arrau etc. has been around for decades, was already very popular and highly recommended in the LP era (if I look into my German LP guide from 1979 the five just mentioned are the recs for complete cycles), so Annie Fischer's is kind of late for establishing itself as a standard recommendation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NJ Joe on December 03, 2016, 07:49:57 PM
I purchased Annie Fischer's cycle, based on recommendations in this thread, about 2 years ago.  I listened through once, and shelved it and went back to Gulda.  I'm now making my way through it a second time and it's knocking my socks off.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 03, 2016, 11:41:16 PM
I was not saying anything against the Fischer (I have only two discs and the older EMI stuff - certainly prefer her to what I have heard of e.g. Brendel, Kempff, Backhaus), just pointing out that it cannot be considered an age-long standard in the way some others can for several "external" reasons.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NJ Joe on December 11, 2016, 10:50:28 AM
In case anyone is interested, this is part one of a series devoted to Beethoven's piano sonatas on WQXR, NY.
There's a rebroadcast of Thursday's initial program tonight at 10PM eastern.  The regular program is each Thursday 8PM.


http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/beethoven-and-sonata-idea-part-1/

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 14, 2017, 06:38:49 PM
.
[asin]B01NBJF92V[/asin]


Another Japanese market cycle is progressing.  I wonder if it will be done for 2020.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 26, 2017, 12:28:55 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91UTKHhHPOL._SX425_.jpg)


The newest complete cycle to be released is out.  It was issued in box form on March 1st.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 27, 2017, 04:35:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 26, 2017, 12:28:55 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91UTKHhHPOL._SX425_.jpg)


The newest complete cycle to be released is out.  It was issued in box form on March 1st.

Always like a number for how many complete cycles you own Todd, especially when you dig into each and every one. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 27, 2017, 06:40:52 AM
Quote from: Bogey on March 27, 2017, 04:35:01 AM
Always like a number for how many complete cycles you own Todd, especially when you dig into each and every one.


This will be set 95, if you count Gilels and Gieseking, or 93 of you don't.  (This includes only sets where I own physical copies.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on March 27, 2017, 08:56:59 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 27, 2017, 06:40:52 AM

This will be set 95, if you count Gilels and Gieseking, or 93 of you don't.  (This includes only sets where I own physical copies.)

Do you include the Backhaus stereo set and the Arrau digital set in the complete sets?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 27, 2017, 09:12:16 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 27, 2017, 08:56:59 AM
Do you include the Backhaus stereo set and the Arrau digital set in the complete sets?


Backhaus yes since I own a physical copy, Arrau digital no since I do not own a physical copy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 27, 2017, 12:58:19 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 27, 2017, 09:12:16 AM

Backhaus yes since I own a physical copy, Arrau digital no since I do not own a physical copy.

That is stinkin' cool, Todd, as we know those sets are not window dressings at your end, but get used at a connoisseur's level. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 27, 2017, 01:27:20 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 27, 2017, 12:58:19 PM
That is stinkin' cool, Todd, as we know those sets are not window dressings at your end, but get used at a connoisseur's level.

If Todd used them as window dressings, he wouldn't be able to see out of them.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on March 28, 2017, 12:10:02 PM
I just noticed Martin Roscoe has a Beethoven cycle apparently in progress on the Deux-Elles label. Not someone I would ordinarily associate with Beethoven to be honest, but, hey.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Spineur on March 28, 2017, 01:04:28 PM
A 91 year old youngster plays the Op. 110

[asin]B00EW5NCM2[/asin]

Music keeps you in shape

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 28, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
He recorded the CD at age 88, but otherwise, yes! It is an excellent disc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 29, 2017, 02:02:42 PM
My Masi set arrived today.  The packaging is cheap.  It's a multi-DVD/CD case with cheap plastic rings that hold safety sleeves that hold the discs.  The set was executive produced (?) by actor David Strathairn, which Brian had pointed out previously.  There's also something of a boo-boo by the producer in the liner note essay called "Eighty Nine" where he states, obviously incorrectly, that as of the time of writing (November 2016), there were 89 cycles that had been completed or were pending completion.  How hard is it for someone in the industry to do their homework?  Listening shall commence today.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on March 29, 2017, 05:06:17 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2017, 02:02:42 PM
My Masi set arrived today.  The packaging is cheap.  It's a multi-DVD/CD case with cheap plastic rings that hold safety sleeves that hold the discs.  The set was executive produced (?) by actor David Strathairn, which Brian had pointed out previously.  There's also something of a boo-boo by the producer in the liner note essay called "Eighty Nine" where he states, obviously incorrectly, that as of the time of writing (November 2016), there were 89 cycles that had been completed or were pending completion. How hard is it for someone in the industry to do their homework?  Listening shall commence today.

Deluxe 247, Todd.

(Google it and play it until it ends. My all time favorite commercial.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLI-nLPiaJA
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 16, 2017, 03:33:32 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1neWBMYKJL._SX425_.jpg)


Claudio Records will reissue the final volume in Sequeira Costa's cycle next month.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on May 17, 2017, 02:45:24 AM
Todd---did you notice the new Giovanni Bellucci set forthcoming on Brilliant Classics?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 17, 2017, 05:19:35 AM
Yes, I saw the three disc set labeled volume one.  As far as I can tell, that's all he has recorded. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 17, 2017, 08:53:46 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NQQMfe0TL._SS425.jpg)


One of the unavailable sonata cycles is now available as an MP3 download from Amazon for $0.99. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on May 17, 2017, 02:59:50 PM
Bellucci recorded the Hammerklavier a few years ago, to fine reviews by Bryce Morrison of grammaphone, for what that is worth. The coming recordings are all new apparantly
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 17, 2017, 04:52:39 PM
I did some quick A/Bs between the MP3 Op 10/1 and the FLAC of the same from the Taub set.  (I've had volume two for a while.)  Sonically, the MP3 is a bit softer and less clear in high frequencies and dynamics sound more compressed.  In other words, more or less what usually happens.  The sound quality is more than good enough, though.  While doing the comps, I thought it might make sense to try some MP3s from Michael Ponti.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 17, 2017, 05:24:17 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 17, 2017, 04:52:39 PM
I did some quick A/Bs between the MP3 Op 10/1 and the FLAC of the same from the Taub set.  (I've had volume two for a while.)  Sonically, the MP3 is a bit softer and less clear in high frequencies and dynamics sound more compressed.  In other words, more or less what usually happens.  The sound quality is more than good enough, though.  While doing the comps, I thought it might make sense to try some MP3s from Michael Ponti.

How about Taub's playing? Third tier?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 17, 2017, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: George on May 17, 2017, 05:24:17 PM
How about Taub's playing? Third tier?


I'll have to listen to the whole set first.  I think it is safe to say that he will be neither top nor bottom tier, though.  I do look forward to listening to his Op 106, which is one of the fastest on record, both in the opening movement and overall.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on May 19, 2017, 12:39:14 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 17, 2017, 05:28:16 PM

I'll have to listen to the whole set first.  I think it is safe to say that he will be neither top nor bottom tier, though.  I do look forward to listening to his Op 106, which is one of the fastest on record, both in the opening movement and overall.
It's fast only partly because of his tempi and mostly because he rushes through a lot of passages. Sloppy finger work, too. I would avoid.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 19, 2017, 12:47:57 PM
Damn, Taub comes in about 2 minutes faster than the versions I have.  Much of it does seem rushed or else he thinks he is playing Lizst. 

https://www.youtube.com/v/eJMyeB6nVUc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 19, 2017, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: amw on May 19, 2017, 12:39:14 PMIt's fast only partly because of his tempi and mostly because he rushes through a lot of passages. Sloppy finger work, too. I would avoid.


I already spent the one dollar, though.  I must listen!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 19, 2017, 03:53:24 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 17, 2017, 05:28:16 PM

I'll have to listen to the whole set first.  I think it is safe to say that he will be neither top nor bottom tier, though.  I do look forward to listening to his Op 106, which is one of the fastest on record, both in the opening movement and overall.
How about op 111? The fastest one I know is Nat at 19+ minutes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 19, 2017, 03:56:03 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 19, 2017, 03:53:24 PM
How about op 111? The fastest one I know is Nat at 19+ minutes.


His Op 111 is a bit on the broad side at 28'+.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2017, 11:07:20 PM
I want to make a list of op 106 recordings on authentic pianos. There's

Stephan Moeller
Peter Serkin
Paul Badura Skoda
Andrea Lucchessini (unpublished concert performance)
Andrew Willis
Malcolm Binns
Ronald Brautigam

Anyone else?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2017, 11:16:10 PM
Did Peter Serkin record op 106 on a modern piano?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on May 24, 2017, 12:22:59 AM
Yes, he did: https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-No-Hammerklavier/dp/B00080M8GG

Bit hard to come by these days though. I'd call it one of my reference 106s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 24, 2017, 12:58:22 AM
I keep Peter Serkin's historical piano recording (of the last 6 sonatas) around in the hope that some day I might get over the atrocious sound of the instrument. But so far it is sufficiently distracting so often that I cannot really enjoy this set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: king ubu on May 24, 2017, 01:20:07 AM
Any opinions on Hans Richter-Haaser's Beethoven sonatas? Not a complete cycle, but there's plenty between these two sets here:

[asin]B008LAO868[/asin]
[asin]B0040UEI6I[/asin]
I've started listening in depth yet. Bought the Schubert disc that's available on EMI/Warner and liking it a lot, I went looking for what else is out there ... seems he even disappeared from the Joachim Kaiser's pianists book (Tully Potter in his very informative liners to the Decca/Eloquence set mentions that, I think ... he was in the sixties edition but then no longer turned up in later ones).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2017, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: amw on May 24, 2017, 12:22:59 AM
Yes, he did: https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-No-Hammerklavier/dp/B00080M8GG

Bit hard to come by these days though. I'd call it one of my reference 106s.

Yes someone's let me have it, I don't know what to make of this sonata any more, I feel a bit disoriented by Stephan Möller on the Bosendorfer, which I like. But I like Backhaus too so . . . total confusion!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2017, 09:04:16 AM
Quote from: king ubu on May 24, 2017, 01:20:07 AM
Any opinions on Hans Richter-Haaser's Beethoven sonatas? Not a complete cycle, but there's plenty between these two sets here:

[asin]B008LAO868[/asin]
[asin]B0040UEI6I[/asin]
I've started listening in depth yet. Bought the Schubert disc that's available on EMI/Warner and liking it a lot, I went looking for what else is out there ... seems he even disappeared from the Joachim Kaiser's pianists book (Tully Potter in his very informative liners to the Decca/Eloquence set mentions that, I think ... he was in the sixties edition but then no longer turned up in later ones).

I recall an exceptional op 2/something and an exceptional op 106 and the Diabelli Variations are good too. The op 110 really was the thing that put me on to him. I get the feeling he was an outstanding pianist, I've never met anyone who doesn't appreciate his art. He's Apollo not Dionysius.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on May 24, 2017, 02:29:59 PM
My first recording of Op2/1, 2/2 were Richter-Haaser on LP and I imprinted on them and also thought they were excellent. The OP 77 G minor Fantasia was also included. Later on I bought the red box set and still think those three performances are great, especially Op2/2. The rest of his Beethoven is also very good. Not sure which tier Todd would put them on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 24, 2017, 03:02:02 PM
Quote from: king ubu on May 24, 2017, 01:20:07 AM[asin]B0040UEI6I[/asin]


I've heard only the EMI, and I agree with Mandryka that the Op 2 sonatas are superb, and Op 31 is very good.  The late sonatas are a bit slow, and the 106 opener has the disadvantage of being slow and repeatless (don't let the timing mislead you into thinking the pianist hits Beethoven's metronome markings).  Definitely more classical than romantic in approach.  Based on what I've heard, third tier for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2017, 09:41:35 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 24, 2017, 03:02:02 PM

I've heard only the EMI, and I agree with Mandryka that the Op 2 sonatas are superb, and Op 31 is very good.  The late sonatas are a bit slow, and the 106 opener has the disadvantage of being slow and repeatless (don't let the timing mislead you into thinking the pianist hits Beethoven's metronome markings).  Definitely more classical than romantic in approach.  Based on what I've heard, third tier for me.

There's something touchingly naive about the way he plays the first movement of 110, I listened again to op 106/1 but didn't enjoy it - nothing follows. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on May 25, 2017, 09:41:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 23, 2017, 11:07:20 PM
I want to make a list of op 106 recordings on authentic pianos. There's

Stephan Moeller
Peter Serkin
Paul Badura Skoda
Andrea Lucchessini (unpublished concert performance)
Andrew Willis
Malcolm Binns
Ronald Brautigam

Anyone else?

John Khouri. I spotified the opening then turned it off.

The Möller was on my list for a while, so I just ordered it from cdbaby (https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/stephanmoller). I wasn't completely sold by the samples but his modern-piano recording (again via spotify) is excellent.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on May 31, 2017, 06:31:57 PM
Re:Richter-Haaser. Just listened to his Brahms 2nd with Karajan  and was mightily impressed with both the pianist and conductor. Look forward to listening to both the Eloquence and  French EMI Beethoven performances 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
Ulysses spent ten years on his Odyssey. I spent ten months deep-diving into the 32. Ten months of almost daily listening, to the exclusion of everything else, reading the scores, dipping into Tovey's analyses, listening to Schiffs youtube commentaries - and, above all of course, listening to the recordings. I took an almost fully Hungarian approach, limiting myself to Schiff and Fischer's cycles (with Solomon joining for the late ones). I can kinda get my head around the early and middle sonatas, but the late ones are so dense, so textured and so varied that I think I will never tire of them.
Having Fischer's more romantic/dionysian approach juxtaposed to Schiff's more cerebral/Apollonian style was a huge advantage. Still I guess there is so much more to be found in other interpretations, so I would like to invite some comments, if possible:
1:Would you point to any interpretations of any specific sonatas that add something unique?
2: Or to any fortepiano recordings of the late sonatas where the interpretation is truly outstanding?
3: Anybody want to recommend recordings of the Diabelli variations? And the bagatelles?
4: And if I should ever find my way out of this vast landscape, where should I go? The string quartets? Brahms? More rhetorically, what can possibly follow op. 111??
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2017, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
2: Or to any fortepiano recordings of the late sonatas where the interpretation is truly outstanding?
3: Anybody want to recommend recordings of the Diabelli variations? And the bagatelles?
Penelope Crawford!! Her fortepiano recordings of Opp. 109-111 are favorites of many GMGers, including me. Truly outstanding, with an intelligence that never bends toward eccentricity. I had the pleasure of interviewing her (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm) two years ago. There is an outstanding Diabelli on fortepiano as well, Andreas Staier's (which very much adds something unique you won't hear on any other recording - I think I'll let you discover his trick for yourself), and Jed Distler at classicstoday.com just called Ronald Brautigam's new Diabelli, also on period instrument, his "crowning achievement."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 19, 2017, 11:27:14 AM
For Diabelli on fortepiano, try Schiff.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on June 19, 2017, 11:39:23 AM
I would not recommend Staier's Diabellis as a first or only recording. It is not without interest but for me overall disappointing (and gimmicky with the stupid sound effects).
A "safe" choice for both Diabellis and Bagatelles would be Kovacevich's recordings from the 1970s. Or, if you tolerate historical sound, Schnabel. Schnabel also did most (all?) of the "lesser variations. Otherwise Richter for op.34 and 35, Gilels for op.35 and WoO 80, Gould for all three. (These three are by far the most relevant of the other variations although some of the rest are quite enjoyable.)

Nothing really follows after late Beethoven (except more late Beethoven). Late Schubert is more an independent branch starting from some aspects of early/middle Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on June 19, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
On modern piano, try Brendel for the Bagatelles and Variations.

And shame on me for not remembering about Serkin for the last three sonatas and the Diabellis.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 19, 2017, 12:03:24 PM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
1:Would you point to any interpretations of any specific sonatas that add something unique?


I've posted on dozens of complete cycles, including unique traits of individual sonatas.  You can search "plays Beethoven" to find them.  You may or may not find the posts useful.


Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM2: Or to any fortepiano recordings of the late sonatas where the interpretation is truly outstanding?


I second the Crawford recommendation and add Paul Badura-Skoda on Astree.


Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM3: Anybody want to recommend recordings of the Diabelli variations? And the bagatelles?


Diabellis
HIP - Schiff
Standard - Serkin ('57 Marlboro), Brendel (digital), Goodyear for more or less straight-forward versions; Pludermacher, Mustonen, Anderszewski for more personalized versions.

Bagatelles
Brendel (digital), Sanchez (sub-prime sound), Osborne


Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AMwhat can possibly follow op. 111??


Lots. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 19, 2017, 02:04:25 PM
Bagatelles, I agree with the Kovacevich recommendation.

The Diabellis have more of a choice.

Schnabel did the first great set and to many is still the gold standard.

Kovacevich (in his first recording) takes a similar approach to Schnabel and does just as good a job but in far better sound.

Claudio Arrau's recording stands out for giving an organic view of the work.

Agree that the Serkin 1957 recording is excellent. I also have an earlier recording (on Music&Arts) that is just as good though in lesser sound.

I tend to gravitate to the Arrau.

I wish Solomon had recorded this piece.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Bogey on June 19, 2017, 02:10:28 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 19, 2017, 02:04:25 PM
Bagatelles, I agree with the Kovacevich recommendation.

The Diabellis have more of a choice.

Schnabel did the first great set and to many is still the gold standard.

Kovacevich (in his first recording) takes a similar approach to Schnabel and does just as good a job but in far better sound.

Claudio Arrau's recording stands out for giving an organic view of the work.

Agree that the Serkin 1957 recording is excellent. I also have an earlier recording (on Music&Arts) that is just as good though in lesser sound.

I tend to gravitate to the Arrau.

I wish Solomon had recorded this piece.

Funny you mentioned Schnabel, Holden.  I just listed the first two volumes of my set from Pearl by him on EBay.  Letting them go as I just do not listen to them anymore.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2017, 09:57:46 PM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
1:Would you point to any interpretations of any specific sonatas that add something unique


Richter BBC Beethoven op 14
Maria Yudina Op 106, op 111
Paul Jacobs op 10/3 - playful and powerful
Earl Wild op 106 - Symphonic
Cziffra -- appassionata
Ernst Levy - op 110
Valery Afanassiev - op 109-110 (Tokyo)
Gilels (late sonatas, meditative)
Sofronitsky -- Pastoral, op 111
Schiff -- Moonlight
Arrau -- , op 109-111, op 2/2, op 10/3

Other names to look out for are Michelangeli and Sokolov

Check the CDs by Pletnev and Lupu with the Waldstein for a more introspective approach.



Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
2: Or to any fortepiano recordings of the late sonatas where the interpretation is truly outstanding?


Beghin op 111
Stephan Möller op 106
Demus at Beethovenhaus

Badura Skoda on Astrée is well worth thinking about exploring, and satisfying in the late sonatas.

Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM

3: Anybody want to recommend recordings of the Diabelli variations?

Michael Oelbaum
Rosen
Kuerti
Sokolov
Pollini (live preferably)
Horszowski
Daria Rabotkina
Bernard Roberts
S Richter (Prague)
Nikolayeve 1979
Brendel 2001
Leonard Shure (Epic)
Kovacevich (Onyx)
Hans Petermandl

By coincidence I was listening to a live recording of Pollini in Bonn just today and I can confirm my recommendation, he really had a strong grasp of this music. I'm not sure the sound on DG does him justice though -- I'd have to check.


Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
And the bagatelles?
,

Schnabel op 119 especially ; Demus Beethovenhaus op 126
Gould, especially if you can find the recording he made for television, it used to be on youtube. 

Check also the recordings by Pletnev and Ugorski. Richter also good in these.


Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM

4: More rhetorically, what can possibly follow op. 111??
Op 131
The Missa Solemnis
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2017, 10:59:22 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 19, 2017, 02:04:25 PM
Bagatelles, I agree with the Kovacevich recommendation.



Kovacevich (in his first recording) takes a similar approach to Schnabel and does just as good a job but in far better sound.


Right, now which one is this? I just listened to Schnabel and my recording of Kov in op 119 and they're not really similar I think, not similar enough anyway. I've ripped the Kov CD so I don't know which one I have - he takes 1:27 for op 119/4 -- is that the one?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 20, 2017, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2017, 10:59:22 PM
Right, now which one is this? I just listened to Schnabel and my recording of Kov in op 119 and they're not really similar I think, not similar enough anyway. I've ripped the Kov CD so I don't know which one I have - he takes 1:27 for op 119/4 -- is that the one?

I was actually referring to the Diabellis. I probably let my thoughts jump, a bad habit of mine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on June 20, 2017, 01:16:16 PM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM2: Or to any fortepiano recordings of the late sonatas where the interpretation is truly outstanding?

I enjoyed Brautigam a great deal. Badura Skoda on Astrée sounds attractive, but not at $100 for a single out-of-print disc...

Quote
4: And if I should ever find my way out of this vast landscape, where should I go? The string quartets? Brahms? More rhetorically, what can possibly follow op. 111??

The Beethoven String Quartets are at least as deep a pool as the Piano Sonatas.

Brahms piano music is very fine, but is not as central to his music as the Piano Sonatas are to Beethoven. Brahms Chamber music taken as a whole, including the Piano Trios, Quartets, Quintet, the string Quartets, Quintets, Sextets, works with clarinet, would make a great followup to Beethoven's quartets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on June 20, 2017, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
1:Would you point to any interpretations of any specific sonatas that add something unique?

I second Pletnev's Waldstein. I also like Gelber on Denon in that piece. Both unusual interpretations.

For the Hammerklavier: the first recordings by Rosen (1964 on Epic) and Stephan Möller (1996 on a modern piano). Neither is easy to find on CD, but they are on spotify. Rosen recorded it again in 1970 for Columbia and yet again in the '90s. I prefer his 1964 to his 1970; haven't heard the '90s one.

Going past unique and to controversial: Gould's Appassionata and Hammerklavier.

Quote
2: Or to any fortepiano recordings of the late sonatas where the interpretation is truly outstanding?

I'll put in a word for Paul Komen. He is excellent in a relatively straight-forward way. Among the late sonatas, he did the last 3 but not op. 101 or 106.

Möller's fortepiano Hammerklavier is very good, but I'm not quite as enthusiastic about it as Mandryka is, or as I am about Möller's earlier modern-piano recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 20, 2017, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 20, 2017, 01:02:31 PM
I was actually referring to the Diabellis. I probably let my thoughts jump, a bad habit of mine.

Ah yes, I like Kovacevich in the DV a lot, for me the later ones are slightly better - the CD and best of all the video.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 20, 2017, 08:45:14 PM
Quote from: Pat B on June 20, 2017, 03:07:41 PM



I'll put in a word for Paul Komen.


Coincidentally I listened to his op 109 last month, the first time in years. It's a very good mainstream performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 20, 2017, 10:14:12 PM
Hammerklavier: Peter Serkin on a Graf fortepiano (or modern piano), Schnabel if you can handle the mistakes, Yudina 1954 for a more unorthodox but successful take. Stephan Möller is also fairly worthwhile. Among slow recordings, Daniel-Ben Pienaar is good and articulates the feel of the work fairly well. Also Pollini, if he wasn't obvious.

Op. 111 my favourites so far include Lubimov and Pashchenko. For the Diabellis I quite like Staier if one can handle the "humorous" fortepiano effects, and Michael Leslie. I'm actually on the lookout for more of those though. (Rudolf Serkin above is still my reference recording.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on June 20, 2017, 11:17:55 PM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 19, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
1:Would you point to any interpretations of any specific sonatas that add something unique?

There are sooo many, but besides the originality found in Gould and Korstick generally, for instance,
I´d at least mention

14 /Kuerti
17 /Kuerti
23 /Richter 1960 Carnegie Hall; Gilels 1961 Brilliant Classics
29 /Yudina
30-32 /Gould
30 /Mustonen

If you accept historical sound, there are many original examples besides Schnabel, such as the recordings by Yudina, Feinberg, Friedman, Lamond, Bauer etc. etc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on June 20, 2017, 11:59:39 PM
op.106: Gulda, Gilels (DG or Brilliant/live)
op.109: Gilels, Edwin Fischer, Richter
op.110: Gilels, Edwin Fischer
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 21, 2017, 12:47:19 AM
Personally, I found Gilels a disappointment in the sonatas. I'd recommend Firkusny instead. This is a great disc (and sound not as bad as I had feared):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91phksg419L._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on June 21, 2017, 01:08:11 AM
I also like the Firkusny disc but I had not mentioned it because it seemed difficult to find.

Gilels is in some respects similar to Arrau that he tends to the slow (often considerably slower than Arrau) and "massive" side and overall appears very "controlled", not really "letting it rip" in fast music (even when his tempi are normal/fastish in such movements). I think his almost complete cycle is a mixed bag for such reasons, e.g. I am not too fond of Gilels' DG Waldstein and Appassionata both of which have often been praised (I still prefer the Waldstein to Arrau on Philips, though). But he can also be very powerful with huge contrasts in dynamics and sounds and effective in attention to details, voicing etc.

In some cases the older (often live) recordings on Melodiya or Brilliant are considerably more spontaneous sounding although the overall conception is similar.

Overall, there is an extremely wide spectrum of interpretations for these works (far more than e.g. for the string quartets or trios in my experience) and Gilels is for me certainly interesting enough to make the DG box worth one's while. But of course there are many other options.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on June 21, 2017, 09:47:12 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 21, 2017, 12:47:19 AM
Personally, I found Gilels a disappointment in the sonatas.

Gilels is very varying, depending on the exact recordings/labels, live versus studio etc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on June 21, 2017, 01:29:15 PM
(http://losslessclassics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/hra_emil_gilels_plays_beethoven.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/095/MI0001095269.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This box is magical. Live performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 21, 2017, 03:26:37 PM
Piano sonata performances I return to.

Op 10/1 Hungerford
Op 13 Moravec, Richter (Moscow 1960)
Op 14 ins 1/2 Richter - Paris
Op 27/1 Gilels
Op 27/2 Solomon one of the few performers to sequence the timing between all three movements and for his dark approach to the first movement
Op 28 Sokolov in Paris DVD
Op 31/2 Richter, Rubinstein
Op 53 Rudolf Serkin (on M&A), Tomsic
Op 57 Gilels (Moscow live 1960) the best ever Appassionata IMO.
Opp 109-111 Pollini
Op 110 Richter in Leipzig
Op 111 Arrau - Classical Archives DVD circa early '60s
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 21, 2017, 07:03:51 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71FsZI0G19L._SY425_.jpg)


I received my copy of Saleem Ashkar's Beethoven sonata twofer today.  It was recorded using a Bechstein in January of this year.  Per Mr Ashkar's website, this is the first of four releases scheduled for this year and next that will cover the entire cycle.  Bring on (physical) cycle 96!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 22, 2017, 01:49:15 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 21, 2017, 03:26:37 PM
Op 111 Arrau - Classical Archives DVD circa early '60s

This is a really special thing. Extraordinary voicing, each variation has its own character. The sound is fabulous too, and that matters.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 22, 2017, 03:52:26 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 21, 2017, 03:26:37 PM

Op 111 Arrau - Classical Archives DVD circa early '60s
Quote from: Mandryka on June 22, 2017, 01:49:15 AM
This is a really special thing. Extraordinary voicing, each variation has its own character. The sound is fabulous too, and that matters.

Is this the one you guys mean: https://www.amazon.com/Claudio-Arrau-Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B004TWOXI0/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498131932&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=Arrau+DVD+Beethoven+Op.+111

I ask because the dates they give are 1970 and 1978, not early 60s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 22, 2017, 05:03:51 AM
I should mention also that I recently got hold of a Hammerklavier by Valentina Lisitsa which is quite nice, Pollini-ish (though I think I actually prefer Lisitsa). Just wish the first movement wasn't so slow >.> It's on Youtube as well, in five parts for some reason, which is mildly annoying, but nice to watch someone's hands go through the piece for those of us who are curious about playing it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 22, 2017, 05:05:23 AM
Quote from: amw on June 22, 2017, 05:03:51 AMthough I think I actually prefer Lisitsa


Inconceivable!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 22, 2017, 05:53:34 AM
I've never been a huge fan of Pollini's 106! It seemed almost... pedantic somehow, and very small-scale-focused, and lacking the explosive life force that is supposed to animate the piece. (Maybe this is one for the Unpopular Opinions thread.) I think I prefer Lisitsa because her performance has some of that missing life at the expense of some of the analytical clarity, and she doesn't hit the piano quite as hard. >_>

(These remarks apply to Pollini Studio DG. Pollini in Salzburg is much better imo, though still slow, especially in the Adagio.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 22, 2017, 05:58:24 AM
Quote from: George on June 22, 2017, 03:52:26 AM
Is this the one you guys mean: https://www.amazon.com/Claudio-Arrau-Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B004TWOXI0/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498131932&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=Arrau+DVD+Beethoven+Op.+111

I ask because the dates they give are 1970 and 1978, not early 60s.

That's the one, let me know if you want me to send you the sound files, I've been playing it all day and I forgotten what a good sonata op 111 can be in the right hands.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 22, 2017, 06:03:30 AM
Quote from: amw on June 22, 2017, 05:53:34 AMMaybe this is one for the Unpopular Opinions thread.


Combine the iconoclastic opinion regarding performance quality with a blithe disregard for Lisitsa's unsavory politics which makes her unpopular all on its own, and you hold an unpopular opinion.  Now I feel compelled to listen to it, if only to understand how very wrong you must be.  It strikes me as somehow outrageous to prefer the work of a younger (broadly understood) performing artist.  How dare you!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 22, 2017, 06:21:20 AM
Unsavoury politics?? In my classical music???? Say it ain't so! I will retreat to my trove of historical recordings by such untroubled figures as Elly Ney, Alfred Cortot, Herbert von Karajan and Yevgeny Mravinsky.

(I actually have no idea what she's done lol. I will guess it has something to do with the Ukraine conflict since that's where she's from. Whatevs.)

If I am wrong, at least I'm outrageously wrong! Also I think what I look for out of a Hammerklavier is very different from what (e.g.) Pollini looks for out of it. He's aiming for something darker, I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 22, 2017, 06:29:54 AM
Quote from: amw on June 22, 2017, 06:21:20 AMI actually have no idea what she's done lol. I will guess it has something to do with the Ukraine conflict since that's where she's from. Whatevs.


Yep, it's Ukraine related.  As to Pollini, well, he's just a plain old commie, so I must don antiseptic gloves when handling his discs lest his far leftistness rub off on me. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 22, 2017, 06:32:48 AM
It is clearly far better to be outrageously wrong than to be ordinarily wrong.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 22, 2017, 06:38:56 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 22, 2017, 06:29:54 AM

Yep, it's Ukraine related.  As to Pollini, well, he's just a plain old commie, so I must don antiseptic gloves when handling his discs lest his far leftistness rub off on me. 
Hmm, that certainly explains the strange compulsion I feel to liberate the working classes from the global bourgeoisie whenever I listen to his Schoenberg album.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on June 22, 2017, 08:11:05 AM
Quote from: Pat B on June 20, 2017, 03:07:41 PM

I'll put in a word for Paul Komen. He is excellent in a relatively straight-forward way. Among the late sonatas, he did the last 3 but not op. 101 or 106.

Oh yes, so will I... My kind kind of Beethoven: straight up.  :)

And his Diabellis, recorded at the Beethoven Museum are nice too!

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on June 22, 2017, 08:20:57 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 20, 2017, 01:16:16 PM
Badura Skoda on Astrée sounds attractive, but not at $100 for a single out-of-print disc...


At the moment the complete set is available from Japan, issued by Denon I believe. Still expensive though... ($ 260 / € 235)

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/40/8/0/078.jpg)

But perhaps we'lll get lucky with a cheap reissue by a revamped Naïve!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 22, 2017, 08:38:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSDq_w4W_KA

Interesting recording by, of course, Wim Winters (I think he's a generally interesting clavichordist, especially the liberties he takes with tempos and articulation, and I haven't hit on any duds yet from him). I see that there is a mini-debate in the comments section about the perhaps "demonstratively slow" (words of Gerald van Reenen) tempo.

I'm similarly conflicted. It's certainly very refreshing at this tempo, and quite nice to see elements such as broken chords and long runs not treated as just background musical wallpaper for the voices in the foreground, but actually counterpoint-like harmony. Voices are equal here, but some are equaler (in a good way, of course - this isn't Renaissance polyphony). But sometimes the whole thing stagnates and I find myself more anticipating the next notes to come than enjoying the music. (Even moreso in his Mozart).

But this is über-romantic Beethoven, full of rubato and perhaps Hamletian hesitation, hints of sturm und drang. Most recordings of this piece sound comparatively Galant, I think.

Need a few more listens to fully comprehend.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on June 22, 2017, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: Que on June 22, 2017, 08:20:57 AMBut perhaps we'lll get lucky with a cheap reissue by a revamped Naïve!  :)

Naive, Arcana, Astree, mystifying how the same recordings cycle through the alphabet soup of sporadically bankrupt French labels. In any case, if it does come back, don't hesitate. They go out of print again in a flash. I managed to get Badura-Skoda's Schubert set on Astree now it's OOP again. Same for the Festetics Haydn set.

I blame Hollande.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 22, 2017, 08:51:40 AM
Quote from: Que on June 22, 2017, 08:20:57 AM
At the moment the complete set is available from Japan, issued by Denon I believe. Still expensive though... ($ 260 / € 235)

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/40/8/0/078.jpg)

But perhaps we'lll get lucky with a cheap reissue by a revamped Naïve!  :)

Q

For 9CDs, that's about $29 per CD for XRCDs, so not that bad.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 22, 2017, 06:38:14 PM
Quote from: Que on June 22, 2017, 08:20:57 AM
At the moment the complete set is available from Japan, issued by Denon I believe. Still expensive though... ($ 260 / € 235)

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/40/8/0/078.jpg)

But perhaps we'lll get lucky with a cheap reissue by a revamped Naïve!  :)

Q

I have files - you can message me if you want them. This is actually the only Beethoven set I own; beautiful pianos and playing, but tempos are a bit too brisk for my liking. On the Galant-to-Romantic scale, this one's firmly in Galant classicism.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on June 23, 2017, 11:14:33 AM
Quote from: George on June 22, 2017, 03:52:26 AM
Is this the one you guys mean: https://www.amazon.com/Claudio-Arrau-Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B004TWOXI0/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498131932&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=Arrau+DVD+Beethoven+Op.+111

I ask because the dates they give are 1970 and 1978, not early 60s.

There are 4 commercially-available videos of Arrau in op.111:

1960, from the BBC, now on ica (http://www.icaclassics.com/legacy-dvd/claudio-arrau-van-cliburn (http://www.icaclassics.com/legacy-dvd/claudio-arrau-van-cliburn))
1964, from Canada, now on VAI (http://www.vaimusic.com/product/4388.html (http://www.vaimusic.com/product/4388.html))
1970, from Paris, on EMI (amazon B000092T5J (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000092T5J/?tag=goodmusicguideco)) and Euroarts (amazon B00HS7C0D8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00HS7C0D8/?tag=goodmusicguideco))
1977, from Bonn, also on Euroarts, the one you linked

These are all distinct from his numerous audio recordings, which for extra confusion include a different 1960 performance released on ica.

I recently received the 1970 but haven't watched it yet.

There is an excellent Arrau discography here (http://arrauhouse.org/content/disc_completediscography.htm).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 23, 2017, 11:27:06 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on June 22, 2017, 06:38:14 PM
but tempos are a bit too brisk for my liking.

And this from someone who likes Koopman 😄

Re galant/romantic, this is interesting and complicated. The thing that stops me rushing to agree with you is the impression I have that PBS really enjoys playng up all the asperities of the old instruments.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 23, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
Quote from: Pat B on June 23, 2017, 11:14:33 AM
There are 4 commercially-available videos of Arrau in op.111:

1960, from the BBC, now on ica (http://www.icaclassics.com/legacy-dvd/claudio-arrau-van-cliburn (http://www.icaclassics.com/legacy-dvd/claudio-arrau-van-cliburn))
1964, from Canada, now on VAI (http://www.vaimusic.com/product/4388.html (http://www.vaimusic.com/product/4388.html))
1970, from Paris, on EMI (amazon B000092T5J (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000092T5J/?tag=goodmusicguideco)) and Euroarts (amazon B00HS7C0D8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00HS7C0D8/?tag=goodmusicguideco))
1977, from Bonn, also on Euroarts, the one you linked

These are all distinct from his numerous audio recordings, which for extra confusion include a different 1960 performance released on ica.

I recently received the 1970 but haven't watched it yet.

There is an excellent Arrau discography here (http://arrauhouse.org/content/disc_completediscography.htm).

The one I meant was the EMI 1970 version shown as the third choice above. I took a bit of a guess at the date.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on June 23, 2017, 08:56:05 PM
Quote from: Holden on June 23, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
The one I meant was the EMI 1970 version shown as the third choice above. I took a bit of a guess at the date.

That's what I figured you meant since the earlier 2 were not on Classic Archive. But thanks for the clarification.

4 different performances on video is unusual!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Amore di Viola on June 23, 2017, 09:31:03 PM
Thanks for sharing all the great comments to my post, which is already two pages old! In my tortoise style, I'll work through them. To my astonishment, I found Penelope Crawford on Spotify.
I guess I won't find my way out of the LvB labyrinth anytime soon...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 25, 2017, 06:50:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 23, 2017, 11:27:06 AM
And this from someone who likes Koopman 😄

Re galant/romantic, this is interesting and complicated. The thing that stops me rushing to agree with you is the impression I have that PBS really enjoys playng up all the asperities of the old instruments.

Touché. Although he's fallen a bit out of favor these days, I haven't listened to his Forqueray or Buxtehude in aeons!

In a way, though, Badura-Skoda is Koopman, who also revels in the pungency of his harpsichords. But I don't know how to place Koopman on the Galant-Romantic scale, although I remember comparing Koopman's playing to Mannerist art.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 26, 2017, 06:03:07 AM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on June 23, 2017, 09:31:03 PM
I guess I won't find my way out of the LvB labyrinth anytime soon...
Lucky you!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 14, 2017, 07:24:59 AM
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/00028947975830.jpg)

Imagine if I passed these recordings to you as MP3s - the sound quality is pretty much that level, taken from live broadcasts which clearly weren't meant for an album release (or, in the case of "Moonlight", possibly not meant to even be listened to). Imagine I said they were some incredibly obscure youngish pianist - let's say the very talented but almost totally unknown Daria Rabotkina.

What would you think then?

Would you hear how badly recorded "Moonlight" is, and how slow and drawn-out the opening is, and just skip it?

Would you think that the "Appassionata" was marked by illogical dynamic adjustments, marred by occasional chords played louder or softer for no clear reason? Would you think that the pianist was using the live environment to test out any old idea that popped into her head, the equivalent of an artist doodling on a cocktail napkin? Would the slightly ponderous, and occasionally inconsistent, tempos bother you?

Would you find "Les Adieux" to be substantially better, with an especially poetic introduction, but still a little "safe" and cool in the first movement? Would you hear the fleet finale and think, "hey, this pianist does have some promise"?

Would you be gratified, when Op. 111 begins, to notice both seriously improved sound quality - almost up to modern standards - and seriously great pianism, driving forward a hard-charging first movement that finally delivers on the flickers of promise from the earlier performances? If so, what will cross your mind when you see that the Arietta lasts over 20 minutes? Will you think "hey, she's kinda getting away with it" all the way through the "boogie" variation, then - in the first of what I often call the Magic Variations - realize that the Celibidachian tempo is oozing down into some kind of attempt at eastern meditation on each note? Does it feel like it keeps getting slower? Does that sound cool, or annoying? And then there are seven minutes left to go? Aren't some of the trills weirdly aggressive?

Isn't it cheating to speed up so dramatically - the tempo practically doubles - when the main theme returns at about 15:40?

Would you charitably assume the pianist's tone must be warmer, more luminous than the constricted live sound (apart from Op. 111) captures?

Would you think it's weird that Daria Rabotkina (or whomever) was releasing a live album where they didn't even edit out all the coughing between movements?

Would you, overall, think anything more than "hmm, there is a glimmer of interest here, perhaps someday she will do a studio album with Brahms rhapsodies or Schumann, and that might be worth sampling"?


How much clothing is the emperor wearing?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 14, 2017, 07:47:10 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2017, 07:24:59 AMHow much clothing is the emperor wearing?


Or how many contractual obligations is he fulfilling?



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71zI3L2%2B6uL._SX425_.jpg)


Evgeny's first solo recording in a while.  Comprised of live recordings made between 2006 and 2016.  Unlike prior live Kissin recordings, these were not made by DG or recognizable production companies, but instead rely on "archival tapes produced under various technical conditions", to borrow from the liner notes.  Private recordings are included.  Sound is not SOTA.

That out of the way, the set opens with Op 2/3, from 2006.  If Kissin doesn't play the Allegro con brio particularly fast, he plays it with admirable control and clarity, as far as the sound lets one hear, and the Adagio also displays admirable control, and, not unexpectedly, some strong left hand playing.  Kissin plays the Scherzo expertly, with nicely varied dynamics and clean articulation and a sense of fun, and a just plain spiffy trio.  The Allegro assai is dashed off with a sense of fun, and what sounds like one slip.  A good start, if not a version for the ages.  The WoO 80 Variations, recorded in 2007, and even less hot sound, comes next.  Kissin dashes off the theme and mostly speeds through the variations, and, when need, like in the sixth, eighteenth, and twenty-ninth variations, rattles the walls with awesome, supremely controlled power, as if Kissin is subconsciously saying to other pianists "Behold, ye puny mortals!".  The Moonlight sonata, from 2012, follows and the very poor sound hurts the performance.  The opening movement sounds atmospheric enough, the Allegretto is a nice enough bridge, and then Kissin lets rip in the Presto agitato.  In some ways, it is preferable to his earlier studio recording, in some ways not, sonics chief among the nots.

The second disc opens with Op 57, from the Concertgebouw from last year.  Kissin plays up the contrasts.  He starts very slow and quietly, and in the slower passages he tend to accentuate those elements, but then in the faster passages he speeds up and he plays with awesome power and control.  Sonics are sub-par for 2016 vintage, but they capture the dynamic range well enough.  It must have been thrilling to sit in the first few rows.  Kissin plays the Andante con moto at a steady, slow, more adagio like pace, and the evenness makes it sort of soothing in all but the third variation, while he tears into the final movement, belting out the loudest passages without resorting to mind-numbing speed.  It's not the best Appassionata I've heard, but it points to an evolution of style in Kissin's playing.  Op 81a, from 2006, follows.  The pianist doesn't really break any new ground interpretively.  He does the slow and somber opening and more vibrant remainder in the opening movement, and a good job of a forlorn second movement, but it is in the final movement where he shines, with energy aplenty.  Not one for the ages, but one for an entertaining evening.  The twofer ends with Op 111, from 2013.  Kissin plays the Maestoso fast with somewhat restrained left hand playing, then plays the Allegro con brio ed appassionato at a snappy speed, with more potent left hand playing, though the sub-par sound weakens the impact.   The second movement is slow, and starts with a slow, but not especially profound Arietta in the first half, though the back half is calmer and more serene, the vocalizing notwithstanding.  The first two variations are not the most elevated, though they sound nice, and Kissin plays the third variation with less drive and power and syncopation than one might expect beforehand, though it is okay.  The "little stars" are curiously slow and stiff and not especially elevated, yet there's a calming effect.  The chains of trills are unsurprisingly well executed, and as the playing builds toward the coda, the playing becomes a bit more accelerated and hard, losing a lot of the more typical transcendent sound, at least until the beginning of the last set of trills, which Kissin plays more gently, while the accompanying melody gentler yet.  If he doesn't deliver one of the more profound Op 111s, he delivers a passable one.

So, a mixed bag of a recital.  In the event anyone needs proof that Evgeny Kissin has chops, this set demonstrates that.  He's evolved as an interpreter over the decades, which makes the prospect of future recordings, of whatever repertoire, quite enticing, or perhaps something to avoid, according to taste.

Sound varies and is not up to snuff for a modern, major label release.  That written, it is not hard to appreciate Kissin's playing, and the limitations are less evident through headphones than speakers.  Here's to hoping future DG issues are either proper studio efforts, or A-list technical talent records future recitals and concerts.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 20, 2017, 05:41:59 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61VRz2aDoLL._SS425.jpg)


You like slow late Beethoven?  If so, Olivier Chauzu might just be the guy for you.

Op 101 starts with a slow Allegretto ma non troppo, bordering on Andante at least, and maybe Adagio.  Yet it holds together and flows and sounds wonderfully deliberative, if not transcendent.  The march is slow and heavy, but again Chauzu makes it hang together very well.  The Adagio again is slow and not especially transcendent, and the fugal playing is on the slow, emphatic, heavy side, and quasi-orchestral in scale.  In some ways, the playing lacks most of the traits I prefer, but somehow it captivates.

Chauzu plays Op 106 more slowly yet, taking just shy of forty-nine minutes.  While I appreciate a variety of approaches and tempi for the work, that's on the generally too long side.  Some really long versions work for me, Eschenbach coming to mind, but it's rare.  This is a rare recording.  Chauzu is slow across the board, too - by movement, 12'45", 3'01", 20'+, 13'+.  The first two movements sound quasi-orchestral and move forward with immovable musical force.  (Others may say they sound lumbering.)  They do sound slow, but that doesn't matter.  It's unabashedly big and slow.  And clear.  Chauzu prefers to reveal details.  The Adagio sounds cool and detached.  It doesn't really evoke a sense of desolation or anger or darkness or anything.  It's somewhat clinical, though also attractive.  The slow Largo and comparatively slower fugue sound heavy yet clear, quasi-orchestral yet as transparent as chamber music. 

This is not a disc to love.  It's not a disc to put on to just enjoy.  It's a disc to listen to in order to follow individual voices and to be enveloped by a big, detailed sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on September 22, 2017, 06:48:22 PM
Maybe this is old news, but I just stumbled on this and was surprised--a super-bargain complete set (came out in August)

[asin]B0714GDHFM[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2017, 03:45:18 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on September 22, 2017, 06:48:22 PM
Maybe this is old news, but I just stumbled on this and was surprised--a super-bargain complete set (came out in August)

[asin]B0714GDHFM[/asin]

Old news or not: thanks anyway!
Just ordered it.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2017, 04:21:15 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 24, 2017, 03:45:18 AM
Old news or not: thanks anyway!
Just ordered it.

:)

Budding completism?  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2017, 06:20:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2017, 04:21:15 AM
Budding completism?  ;)

I want it all and I want it NOW. :P

Nah, Kovacevich is just too interesting to let go for this price.
Hit and miss, I guess, but still interesting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2017, 08:26:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 24, 2017, 06:20:00 AM
I want it all and I want it NOW. :P

Nah, Kovacevich is just too interesting to let go for this price.
Hit and miss, I guess, but still interesting.

I can't explain this very well, but he's got a way of bringing out the way the music can function at the level of the sounds, the almost physical impact of the repetition of sounds, rather than by melody or voicing. Like in the Rite of Spring.  It's an approach which is interesting to think about in the sonatas which Beethoven wrote when he was deaf - you can imagine him feeling the vibrations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 24, 2017, 01:39:20 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 24, 2017, 06:20:00 AM
Nah, Kovacevich is just too interesting to let go for this price.
Hit and miss, I guess, but still interesting.

Yes, interesting I agree.

The interpretation is on the aggressive side, reinforced by a very close miking. You are not left in doubt, that the piano is a percussion instrument.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 24, 2017, 09:42:05 PM
I believe that's the one complete set I already own (repackaged).

If so it's pretty good IMHO, only very occasionally does the high-energy approach become too much. Some of the performances I find quite riveting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2017, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2017, 08:26:50 AM
I can't explain this very well, but he's got a way of bringing out the way the music can function at the level of the sounds, the almost physical impact of the repetition of sounds, rather than by melody or voicing. Like in the Rite of Spring.  It's an approach which is interesting to think about in the sonatas which Beethoven wrote when he was deaf - you can imagine him feeling the vibrations.

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2017, 01:39:20 PM
[...]
The interpretation is on the aggressive side, reinforced by a very close miking. You are not left in doubt, that the piano is a percussion instrument.

Quote from: ørfeo on September 24, 2017, 09:42:05 PM
[...]
it's pretty good IMHO, only very occasionally does the high-energy approach become too much. Some of the performances I find quite riveting.

I'm not afraid.
There's plenty of other music in the house to help me recover from Kovacevich's energy. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 25, 2017, 08:44:24 AM
So far, so good.
I 'did' 3 Beethoven/Kovacevich recordings this late afternoon/early evening.

I first listened to op. 2/1 (the 'little' Appassionata), one of my favourites, recorded in 2003.
First movement is much too prestissimo for just an allegro, and Kovacevich is missing the lyricism of the 2nd movement, but from then on I liked the way he played this sonata. But one of my first thoughts was: why not play a fortepiano, Stephen? Maybe that would have sounded just great. Speaking of sound: I was happily surprised, it wasn't as harsh as I expected.
Then I listened to op. 27/2 ('Mondschein'), recorded in 1999: well, the 1st movement got me really quiet and I found myself truly moved. The 2nd movement was very nicely played, but the 3rd was a bit too much of heaviness sometimes, which led to a certain amount of fuzziness. I got pretty enthousiastic whilst listening to it, though. So I won't deny it: I liked this sonata very much! Again: the sound was good on my modest Denon set with a couple of 2-way Quadrals: rather warm and deep.
Finally op. 31/1, one of my least favourites. I probably don't get Beet's humour in the 1st movement, and the 2nd is mostly kind of a bore to me (sorry, true Beethovenians). But with Kovacevich's energetic way of playing I could easily enjoy it, even though I doubt if he himself 'got' the fun of it. The 3rd movement is the best movement of this piece IMO, it's a beauty and, despite some heavy accents, Kovacevich got me in the right mood.
This was the earliest recording of the three (1994), and also the least impressive. Metallic and too brutal sometimes.

Well, just 3 sonatas, but I'm already happy with this budget-priced purchase.
But my guess is that Kovacevich should be consumed in a moderate way. For instance: the 'little Appassionata' gets hammered away too much, and there are 'sforzati' in his approach that can sound quite brutal, too. But, who knows, maybe Beethoven would have liked it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on September 25, 2017, 08:49:10 AM
I had a number of these discs when they were being released individually. I like Kovacevitch but many of these recordings were made during a time when EMI engineering was too harsh for my taste.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 25, 2017, 08:53:23 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 25, 2017, 08:49:10 AM
I had a number of these discs when they were being released individually. I like Kovacevitch but many of these recordings were made during a time when EMI engineering was too harsh for my taste.

Not sure if they are remastered and therefore sounding better than in their first release(s), but it was less harsh than I expected. In the later recordings, the sound was, despite being still direct, quite warm and deep.
Now listening, to close my Beet/Kovacevich listening for today, to opp. 49: they're good, they really are. No hammering here. Swift and very pleasant IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on September 25, 2017, 08:57:58 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 25, 2017, 08:53:23 AM
Not sure if they are remastered and therefore sounding better than in their first release(s), but it was less harsh than I expected. In the later recordings, the sound was, despite being still direct, quite warm and deep.
Now listening, to close my Beet/Kovacevich listening for today, to opp. 49: they're good, they really are. No hammering here. Swift and very pleasant IMO.

They did a better job (for my taste) towards the end, and I recall that some sonatas were recorded a second time, with the first recording omitted from the collection. I do recall liking this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51aawBz%2BTRL.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 25, 2017, 09:00:17 AM
Then Kovacevitch Beethoven to have, IMO, is the Philips recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 25, 2017, 09:25:33 AM
Quote from: George on September 25, 2017, 09:00:17 AM
Then Kovacevitch Beethoven to have, IMO, is the Philips recordings.

I'll remember that... who knows, later. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 26, 2017, 01:35:16 AM
One thing I particularly love from that set is the op.28 'Pastoral'.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 26, 2017, 07:42:04 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 25, 2017, 08:53:23 AM
Not sure if they are remastered and therefore sounding better than in their first release(s), but it was less harsh than I expected. In the later recordings, the sound was, despite being still direct, quite warm and deep.

If the booklet doesn't tell anything about this, we probably have to realize, that the set wasn't remastered.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 26, 2017, 10:20:44 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 26, 2017, 07:42:04 AM
If the booklet doesn't tell anything about this, we probably have to realize, that the set wasn't remastered.

Yes.
Which means: no.
I guess.

:D

Quote from: ørfeo on September 26, 2017, 01:35:16 AM
One thing I particularly love from that set is the op.28 'Pastoral'.

Going to do opus 28 before a pastoral night rest.
Sweet dreams ahead.

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 26, 2017, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on September 26, 2017, 01:35:16 AM
One thing I particularly love from that set is the op.28 'Pastoral'.

Same here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on September 26, 2017, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 26, 2017, 07:42:04 AM
If the booklet doesn't tell anything about this, we probably have to realize, that the set wasn't remastered.

I assume it is a re-boxing of the complete set released in 2004.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51X1%2Bd-D1jL.jpg)

Whatever re-mastering might have been done for that set presumably applies to the new bargain release.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 26, 2017, 11:43:34 AM
Pianist Andreas Haefliger has begun a new collaboration with BIS Records. Each solo album will include a Beethoven sonata "as the point of departure" for other works.

It's a continuation of his "Perspectives" series, which began on Avie Records:
Vol 1 - Schubert D. 537 / Adès Darknesse Visible / Mozart No. 17 K. 570 / Op. 111
Vol 2 - Op. 54 / Bartók Out of Doors / Op. 90 / Brahms No. 3
Vol 3 - Op. 28 / Op. 57 / D. 960
Vol 4 - 1.X.1905 / Op. 53 / Op. 78 / Brahms No. 2
Vol 5 - Op. 106 / Années Year 1
Vol 6 - Op. 14 No. 2 / two Berio encores / Op. 109 / two more Berio encores / Schumann Op. 17

The first BIS album will be marked Volume 7 and will couple a Beethoven sonata with Berg's, plus works by Mussorgsky and Liszt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 26, 2017, 01:01:15 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 26, 2017, 10:43:13 AM
I assume it is a re-boxing of the complete set released in 2004.

Whatever re-mastering might have been done for that set presumably applies to the new bargain release.

This is precisely what I want to know, since I own the original release and wonder, if a purchase of the new bargain release is justified for the matter of sonic upgrading.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on September 26, 2017, 01:30:43 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 26, 2017, 01:01:15 PM
This is precisely what I want to know, since I own the original release and wonder, if a purchase of the new bargain release is justified for the matter of sonic upgrading.

The would never remaster anything for a straight bargain box re-release. I am 99% sure it would be the same.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 26, 2017, 01:33:18 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 26, 2017, 01:30:43 PM
The would never remaster anything for a straight bargain box re-release. I am 99% sure it would be the same.

This is also what I think, but Marc's description of the sound of the bargain release makes me wonder.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 26, 2017, 01:39:58 PM
I think ClassicsToday just said the Gieseking Debussy box in that series was newly remastered?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 26, 2017, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 26, 2017, 01:33:18 PM
This is also what I think, but Marc's description of the sound of the bargain release makes me wonder.


The Warner site does not mention any remastering.


Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2017, 01:39:58 PM
I think ClassicsToday just said the Gieseking Debussy box in that series was newly remastered?


That appears to be a reissue of the EMI Signature Collection from 2012, later Warner branded.  I doubt it was remastered again so soon.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Th%2B8vw9ZL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on September 26, 2017, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2017, 01:39:58 PM
I think ClassicsToday just said the Gieseking Debussy box in that series was newly remastered?

EMI did a new remastering of the Geiseking Debussy for a high resolution SACD release in 2012.

[asin] B0079J283C[/asin]

That's what they used.  I have it, it sound much better than the purple box which preceded it.

[asin]B000002S6Z[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on September 27, 2017, 02:42:06 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 26, 2017, 01:01:15 PM
This is precisely what I want to know, since I own the original release and wonder, if a purchase of the new bargain release is justified for the matter of sonic upgrading.

No remastering mentioned.

I did some reading about the Kovacevich recordings during the last years, and some reviewers mentioned the hard, direct and metallic sound. So that's what I expected.
My own experience until now: the early recordings are indeed rather harsh and metallic.
But the later ones sound good on my hifi set. Still direct, but warm and deep.

I think that, in general, the recordings match Kovacevich's own insights.
And I'm happy with the purchase, because it adds something different to my collection so far.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on September 27, 2017, 03:12:29 AM
I have 3-4 of the single issues and am rather undecided about them. The low price of the new box is tempting, of course. In my experience the sound was not as bad as some claimed but not good either (and even less pleasant).
And while I generally like fast Beethoven (Gulda/Amadeo is still a great favorite in many sonatas) Kovacevich is sometimes too relentlessly fast and brutal for me. E.g the first movement of op.2/1 mentioned above is way too fast in my opinion. It should feel slower than the finale and while K is fast in the finale he is so faster in the first one. He is also often quite fast in slow movements.

Overall the older Philips recordings (only 8 sonatas + Diabellis and Bagatelles, though) have far more pleasant sound and they are more "balanced" (also more "mainstream") performances. The concertos with Davis are also very good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on September 27, 2017, 03:23:42 AM
I never had any issue with the sound at all.** In my view any aggression comes from the playing.

**Noting that some of the early recordings of the single issues were replaced by new ones in the box set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 27, 2017, 07:55:00 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 27, 2017, 02:42:06 AM
No remastering mentioned.

I did some reading about the Kovacevich recordings during the last years, and some reviewers mentioned the hard, direct and metallic sound. So that's what I expected.
My own experience until now: the early recordings are indeed rather harsh and metallic.
But the later ones sound good on my hifi set. Still direct, but warm and deep.

That hard, direct, metallic sound is certainly system dependent. And of course, the words themselves are subjective. What matters, I think it whether or not you like the performances and sound. And it sounds like you do.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 28, 2017, 06:21:19 AM
Another new cycle is set to launch: Volume 1, Opp 26, 27, & 28, from Maurizio Paciariello on Da Vinci Classics. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 10, 2017, 04:14:45 AM
Beethoven Piano Sonata Cycle Survey updated: Richard Goode's 1993 Nonesuch cycle has been re-issued by Warner -- and, as has been mentioned here -- Kovacevich, too.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)
Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 4, 1990 - 1996
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 22, 2017, 01:15:15 PM
After relistening to one cycle, and listening to three new (to me) cycles, I've updated my tiers.  This leaves Kazune Shimizu I, Michael Houstoun I, Sequeira Costa, and the soon to be released Martin Rasch as the four cycles I have yet to listen to in their entirety, and then I'll be out of single pianist cycles to hear, save Shoko Sugitani's overpriced set.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier (in no particular order)
Artur Schnabel
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree; needs A/B with top 10 contenders)
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica; needs A/B with top 10 contenders)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Younwha Lee
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in no particular order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira (may be second tier stuff – Op 31 is so freakin' good . . .)
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Binns (borderline tier four?)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in no particular order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jean Muller
Jeno Jando
John Lill
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Ronald Brautigam
Robert Taub
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 22, 2017, 01:22:30 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2017, 01:15:15 PM
After relistening to one cycle, and listening to three new (to me) cycles, I've updated my tiers.  This leaves Kazune Shimizu I, Michael Houstoun I, Sequeira Costa, and the soon to be released Martin Rasch as the four cycles I have yet to listen to in their entirety, and then I'll be out of single pianist cycles to hear, save Shoko Sugitani's overpriced set.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]

[...]

That's funny. I'm downloading one of your 'top tiers' right now (Kempff mono).
I already love the Kempff stereo, and I just couldn't resist.
He was my 'invitation to Ludwig', many many years ago. Concertos and the 3 'famous' sonatas (opp. 13, 27/2 and 57). Dad's vinyl.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on October 22, 2017, 02:54:59 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2017, 01:15:15 PM
After relistening to one cycle, and listening to three new (to me) cycles, I've updated my tiers.  This leaves Kazune Shimizu I, Michael Houstoun I, Sequeira Costa, and the soon to be released Martin Rasch as the four cycles I have yet to listen to in their entirety, and then I'll be out of single pianist cycles to hear, save Shoko Sugitani's overpriced set.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier (in no particular order)
Artur Schnabel
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree; needs A/B with top 10 contenders)
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica; needs A/B with top 10 contenders)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Younwha Lee
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in no particular order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira (may be second tier stuff – Op 31 is so freakin' good . . .)
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Binns (borderline tier four?)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in no particular order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jean Muller
Jeno Jando
John Lill
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Ronald Brautigam
Robert Taub
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Steven Herbert Smith
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland

Jonathan Biss has completed six volumes in his projected complete cycle.  Any thoughts yet on where his would fall?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 22, 2017, 03:00:05 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2017, 02:54:59 PM
Jonathan Biss has completed six volumes in his projected complete cycle.  Any thoughts yet on where his would fall?


Third tier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 22, 2017, 07:11:54 PM
In reviewing my list of cycles, the below are the cycles that I have never been able to find copies of, and/or I'm not sure if they exist.  I'm hoping some are reissued in 2020.


Unsure of status
Yoshihiro Kondo (complete?)
Paul Badura-Skoda I (Westminster - does it exist?)

Exist but can't find
Robert Riefling (aka, The Holy Grail)
Hiroaki Ooi
Michael Steinberg
Walter Gieseking (Columbia/EMI, incomplete)
Daniela Varinska
Gotthard Kladetzky
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on October 22, 2017, 07:20:40 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2017, 07:11:54 PM
In reviewing my list of cycles, the below are the cycles that I have never been able to find copies of, and/or I'm not sure if they exist.  I'm hoping some are reissued in 2020.


Unsure of status
Yoshihiro Kondo (complete?)
Paul Badura-Skoda I (Westminster - does it exist?)

Exist but can't find
Robert Riefling (aka, The Holy Grail)
Hiroaki Ooi
Michael Steinberg
Walter Gieseking (Columbia/EMI, incomplete)
Daniela Varinska
Gotthard Kladetzky

Why is Riefling the Holy Grail?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 22, 2017, 07:31:43 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 22, 2017, 07:20:40 PM
Why is Riefling the Holy Grail?


Of the remaining complete sets that I don't own, it's the one I want to hear the most, and based on his late career Simax LvB disc, I have a hunch it will be above average qualitatively.  If the PBS Westminster set does exist, that probably becomes the Holy Grail. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on October 22, 2017, 07:43:45 PM
Are the 3 sonatas in this set part of the cycle?
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/38/83/7033662018338_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 22, 2017, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: amw on October 22, 2017, 07:43:45 PM
Are the 3 sonatas in this set part of the cycle?
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/38/83/7033662018338_600.jpg)


No, those are later.  His cycle was released in 1969/70 on Valois. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on October 22, 2017, 10:54:05 PM
I do not have conclusive evidence but I am pretty sure that there was no complete Badura-Skoda on Westminster

According to the following there was a mid-50s cycle on Intercord/MHS, though:

http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 23, 2017, 04:23:41 AM
Listened to Riefling's live 1979 Op. 111 on YouTube last night and holy cow is it good. You've got me hooked, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 23, 2017, 05:25:02 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 22, 2017, 10:54:05 PM
I do not have conclusive evidence but I am pretty sure that there was no complete Badura-Skoda on Westminster

According to the following there was a mid-50s cycle on Intercord/MHS, though:

http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html


My misstatement, that is the phantom cycle I am referring to.  I used the contact feature on the website to see if the set existed, but never heard back.  I've found some used LPs from the cycle, but never the whole thing.  The same holds true for the Riefling cycle.


Quote from: Brian on October 23, 2017, 04:23:41 AM
Listened to Riefling's live 1979 Op. 111 on YouTube last night and holy cow is it good. You've got me hooked, too.


The late career LvB I referred to is even later.  I have to hear the late 70s stuff now.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RMvE0tEoL._SS425.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2017, 06:46:33 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2017, 07:11:54 PM
In reviewing my list of cycles, the below are the cycles that I have never been able to find copies of, and/or I'm not sure if they exist.  I'm hoping some are reissued in 2020.


Unsure of status
Yoshihiro Kondo (complete?)
Paul Badura-Skoda I (Westminster - does it exist?)

If all goes well, I'll have a series of conversations with PBS later this year -- I'll definitely plan to dig into his discography with him. He's got records of almost everything he did; so I should find out about it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 06:53:53 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2017, 06:46:33 AM
If all goes well, I'll have a series of conversations with PBS later this year -- I'll definitely plan to dig into his discography with him. He's got records of almost everything he did; so I should find out about it.


Sweet.  It is a disservice to humanity if a cycle languishes in a vault somewhere. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 06:58:30 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2017, 07:11:54 PM
In reviewing my list of cycles, the below are the cycles that I have never been able to find copies of, and/or I'm not sure if they exist.  I'm hoping some are reissued in 2020.


Unsure of status
Yoshihiro Kondo (complete?)
Paul Badura-Skoda I (Westminster - does it exist?)

Addressing the "does it exist" question, the quoted post suggests yes.

QuoteI had the great pleasure of lunching today with pianist Paul
Badura-Skoda, who shared one fascinating story after another about his
survival as a Jew in Austria under the Nazis, his schooling (with Jorg
Demus and Friedrich Gulda) and the early years of his career, playing
under Furtwangler, Szell, Scherchen and others.
Badura-Skoda floored me by saying he made more than 100 recordings for
Westminster in the 1950s, including all of the Beethoven concerti with
Scherchen, complete cycles of sonatas by Mozart, Schubert and
Beethoven, and more

Where are these recordings now? I have come across very few over the
years. Badura-Skoda said there were some problems with the rights to
these tapes, which are, he thinks, now owned by BMG.

Recommendations, please, for Badura-Skoda recordings, available or
unavailable.

Mark Melson

This is rec.music.classical.recordings from 2001

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/mGRNXwPuytM

After a chain of acquisitions, Deutsche Gramophone owns the Westminster catalog, including the B-S recordings, unless there was some special arrangement.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 27, 2017, 07:02:35 AM
Maybe GMG can raise the dough to buy those rights and the Robert Riefling rights.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 07:17:15 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 06:58:30 AM
Addressing the "does it exist" question, the quoted post suggests yes.

This is rec.music.classical.recordings from 2001

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/mGRNXwPuytM

After a chain of acquisitions, Deutsche Gramophone owns the Westminster catalog, including the B-S recordings, unless there was some special arrangement.


This almost implies the existence of four cycles.  The PBS site shows Intercord, Gramola, and Astree.  Whether it is three or four, I want the one(s) I do not own.  (Maybe the Intercord/MHS might be reissues of the Westminster recordings.)


(http://assets.rootsvinylguide.com/pictures/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-badura-skoda-12-lp-2-box-sets-intercord_1215604)

(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/0/7429/paul_badura_skoda.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2017, 07:26:39 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2017, 07:17:15 AM

This almost implies the existence of four cycles.  The PBS site shows Intercord, Gramola, and Astree.  Whether it is three or four, I want the one(s) I do not own.  (Maybe the Intercord/MHS might be reissues of the Westminster recordings.)


I'm thinking the latter could be the case. In any case, DG just released a PBS Edition (http://a-fwd.to/6kboWoP), and while it includes a complete set of the LvB Piano Concertos, it only includes three or four LvB sonatas. But the set also states: A SELECTION of PBS' recordings, making no claims of being complete.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 07:29:07 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2017, 07:17:15 AM

This almost implies the existence of four cycles.  The PBS site shows Intercord, Gramola, and Astree.  Whether it is three or four, I want the one(s) I do not own.  (Maybe the Intercord/MHS might be reissues of the Westminster recordings.)


(http://assets.rootsvinylguide.com/pictures/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-badura-skoda-12-lp-2-box-sets-intercord_1215604)

(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/0/7429/paul_badura_skoda.jpg)

The MHS says stereo, which would rule out the Westminster cycle, which seems to have been Mono.

https://www.discogs.com/Paul-Badura-Skoda-Beethoven-Sonata-No-30-In-E-Major-Op-109-Sonata-No-28-In-A-Major-Op-101/release/8391984
(https://img.discogs.com/wcdddxFsYDmP5b9B4gukIMiHQ7o=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-8391984-1460727841-8507.jpeg.jpg)
Release data of that issue is 1955, the mono era.

Westminster was started by the same guy who started MHS, a clue.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 08:03:17 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 07:29:07 AM
The MHS says stereo, which would rule out the Westminster cycle, which seems to have been Mono.


Hopefully Jens can get to the bottom of all this.  It could be helpful to know who to browbeat to get some recordings reissued.  If there is a Westminster cycle, it would be interesting to see if a campaign to flood Eloquence with requests for a reissue might work since it takes suggestions from the public.  (I don't know what is done with those suggestions.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 08:13:43 AM
The Intercord LPs were released in 1970, maybe the MHS is a re-release of the Intercord. The Intercord catalog was acquired by EMI, and is presumably controlled by Warner now.

I agree, it seems like Eloquence is the best bet for a release of the Westminster cycle. Who knows if anyone at Warner even knows the Intercord cycle exists.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on October 27, 2017, 12:02:50 PM
Intercord/MHS cycle seems to be the same as Gramola based on timings listed on discogs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 27, 2017, 12:19:01 PM
Gramola has issued two boxes of PBS Beethoven, both recorded 1969-1970 at the Vienna Konzerthaus. Just used NML to check the PDF documentation on both.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 12:22:39 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2017, 12:19:01 PM
Gramola has issued two boxes of PBS Beethoven, both recorded 1969-1970 at the Vienna Konzerthaus. Just used NML to check the PDF documentation on both.

That seems to be consistent with the Intercord LP release date of 1970. It leaves only the Westminster of 1953-55 MIA, of which DGG has released three Sonatas in that new 20CD set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 12:24:31 PM
Quote from: amw on October 27, 2017, 12:02:50 PM
Intercord/MHS cycle seems to be the same as Gramola based on timings listed on discogs.


The Paul Badura-Skoda website and ClassicsToday review of the Gramola set both indicate they are different.

From ClassicsToday:

"Paul Badura-Skoda and the Beethoven sonatas have had a long discographical relationship since the 1950s. The pianist first recorded five "name" sonatas for Westminster (the "Moonlight", Pathetique", Appassionata", "Pastoral", and "Tempest"). He later undertook all 32 sonatas for an LP release brought out in the U.S. by the Musical Heritage Society to tie in with Beethoven's 1970 bicentenary. More recently, he remade the cycle for Astrée, using period instruments. According to Badura-Skoda's American management, the present 1969/70 recordings remained unedited and unreleased until now. In the main, they were worth the wait."

It's possible that the Intercord and Gramola sets are the same, and that the third (or fourth) cycle is Westminster, or that there is no third (and/or fourth) cycle at all.  It's also possible that the Intercord/MHS set contains part of the Gramola set since the PBS site lists the instrument as Steinway and Bosendorfer, while the Gramola set is all Bosendorfer.  Hence the importance (word used lightly) of Jens being able to find out directly from the pianist, if that comes to pass.  All I know is that if there is another cycle, I want it.


Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2017, 12:19:01 PM
Gramola has issued two boxes of PBS Beethoven, both recorded 1969-1970 at the Vienna Konzerthaus. Just used NML to check the PDF documentation on both.


The second box included one additional disc on a Graf piano.

From PBS site on the 10-disc set:

Instrument: Bösendorfer Imperial / Fortepiano by Conrad Graf, 1824
Recorded / Published: CD 1–9 , rec. 1969-1970, CD 10: live 1976, Warsaw (Bösendorfer) and 1980, Fortepiano by Conrad Graf, 1824. New CD-Release, 2012
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 12:39:09 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2017, 12:24:31 PM
The pianist first recorded five "name" sonatas for Westminster (the "Moonlight", Pathetique", Appassionata", "Pastoral", and "Tempest"). He later undertook all 32 sonatas for an LP release brought out in the U.S. by the Musical Heritage Society to tie in with Beethoven's 1970 bicentenary.

That seems to be an incomplete list of Westminster recordings at best. At the very least it omits this disc, including #28 and #30.

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8c/25/67/8c2567eb06517df7490bf3638ad2f052--skoda-album-covers.jpg)

Admittedly the wording does not strictly rule out a Westminster cycle.

I suspect that B-S's statement in the usenet post I cited above that he did a "cycle" is right. It's hearsay, of course.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 12:39:09 PMI suspect that B-S's statement in the usenet post I cited above that he did a "cycle" is right. It's hearsay, of course.


He has been prolific, so I wouldn't be surprised if he as recorded three or even four cycles.  He recorded two Schubert sonata cycles.  How many people do that?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 27, 2017, 12:48:58 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2017, 12:24:31 PM
[...]
From PBS site on the 10-disc set:

Instrument: Bösendorfer Imperial / Fortepiano by Conrad Graf, 1824
Recorded / Published: CD 1–9 , rec. 1969-1970, CD 10: live 1976, Warsaw (Bösendorfer) and 1980, Fortepiano by Conrad Graf, 1824. New CD-Release, 2012

That's the one I bought earlier this year... the 10th disc offers 2 'Hammerklaviers' as a bonus (one, indeed, on fortepiano). So, it's a Hammerbox, with 3x opus 106.

https://www.amazon.com/S%C3%A4mtliche-Klaviersonaten-Paul-Badura-Skoda/dp/B009L4JTFI/?tag=goodmusicguideco

It's good, but I don't know about the tier. ;)

Now I DEMAND an affordable fortepiano Astrée set.
(Are they waiting for his 100th birthday?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 12:54:18 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2017, 12:47:12 PM

He has been prolific, so I wouldn't be surprised if he as recorded three or even four cycles.  He recorded two Schubert sonata cycles.  How many people do that?

Come what will, I want that recording of #28. It's my favorite Beethoven Piano Sonata.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 27, 2017, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 12:39:09 PM
That seems to be an incomplete list of Westminster recordings at best. At the very least it omits this disc, including #28 and #30.

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8c/25/67/8c2567eb06517df7490bf3638ad2f052--skoda-album-covers.jpg)

Admittedly the wording does not strictly rule out a Westminster cycle.

I suspect that B-S's statement in the usenet post I cited above that he did a "cycle" is right. It's hearsay, of course.

Nice cover btw.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 12:54:18 PM
Come what will, I want that recording of #28. It's my favorite Beethoven Piano Sonata.

Couldn't tell which 'one' is my favourite of the 32. Opp. 90, 101 and 110 make the Top 3 maybe.
But then I listen to f.i. op 31 nos 2 & 3 or the Waldstein, well, .... after one weekend of Beethoven's Klavier I might have more than a dozen favourites.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on October 27, 2017, 02:19:16 PM
To make things more complicated I own a three CD set (Concerto Royale - some consider it a pirate label) with pianosonatas by LvB. Vol. 1 is played by Walter Bohle, but vol. 2 is allegedly played by Paul Badura-Skoda on fortepiano (sonatas 3, 8 and 26) and vol. 3 contains sonata 1 played by P B-S on fortepiano, sonata 18 played by Jörg Demus on modern piano and sonata 12 played by P B-S on modern piano. I have not made A/B tests of other than the sonata 1, and while the playing style well may point to P B-S, it is with certainty not the Astrëe recording. The playing times of the others (3, 9, 26) are also different from the Astrée recordings. So what is it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 02:32:53 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 27, 2017, 02:19:16 PMSo what is it?


Could be mislabeled.  Could be recordings not included in the PBS discography. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 02:34:49 PM
As I thought about pestering Eloquence to reissue a potential PBS Westminster cycle, it occurred to me that since UMG owns most of the Koch-Schwann catalog, Eloquence might be able to reissue the Gotthard Kladetzky set.  Hmm.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2017, 02:34:49 PM
As I thought about pestering Eloquence to reissue a potential PBS Westminster cycle, it occurred to me that since UMG owns most of the Koch-Schwann catalog, Eloquence might be able to reissue the Gotthard Kladetzky set.  Hmm.

Has Eloquence Australia ever reissued something other than Decca/Philips/DGG? I don't recall anything outside the core "Polygram" labels turning up (except argo, which was a name Decca used for some British music in the 90's).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2017, 03:33:48 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
Has Eloquence Australia ever reissued something other than Decca/Philips/DGG? I don't recall anything outside the core "Polygram" labels turning up (except argo, which was a name Decca used for some British music in the 90's).


They've reissued at least one ABC Classics recording and some that are now, or were at the time of reissue, labelled Universal Classics or Universal Classics & Jazz, but I don't know if any Koch-Schwann titles have been reissued before.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 28, 2017, 03:00:37 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 07:29:07 AM
The MHS says stereo, which would rule out the Westminster cycle, which seems to have been Mono.
...
Release data of that issue is 1955, the mono era.

Westminster was started by the same guy who started MHS, a clue.

RCA started recording in stereo in early 1954. It's possible that Westminster recorded in stereo in 1955 even though they didn't release in stereo until a few years later. It's also possible that the MHS set was artificial stereo from a mono original.

Wikipedia says MHS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_Heritage_Society) was founded in 1962 and Intercord (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercord) in 1966. But the online discography (http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html) has a recording date of 1955 for the Intercord/MHS cycle. My guess is those labels licensed the recordings from whoever owned Westminster's catalog at the time.

Will be interesting to see what Jens learns!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 30, 2017, 09:30:10 AM
I can confirm that the information on BPS's website is faulty at least in this regard: The INTERCORD cycle was the one recorded in 1970 for the Konzerthaus which was then edited by Rico Gulda und Albert Franz for CD release on Gramola in the early 2000s.

So if there is a 1955 cycle, it wasn't for Intercord. It may have been for Westminster. I don't know if the Heritage Society one is the same as the Intercord (I would assume so much).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 30, 2017, 09:32:54 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 30, 2017, 09:30:10 AMSo if there is a 1955 cycle, it wasn't for Intercord. It may have been for Westminster. I don't know if the Heritage Society one is the same as the Intercord (I would assume so much).


So it's back to a possible Westminster cycle only.  If there is one, I want it.  If not, that's a unicorn I don't have to chase.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 30, 2017, 10:18:27 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 30, 2017, 09:32:54 AM

So it's back to a possible Westminster cycle only.  If there is one, I want it.  If not, that's a unicorn I don't have to chase.

http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/contact.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 30, 2017, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: Marc on October 30, 2017, 10:18:27 AM
http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/contact.html


As I posted before in this thread, I already tried that.  I never heard back.  Feel free to give it a try.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 30, 2017, 10:49:50 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 30, 2017, 10:20:30 AM

As I posted before in this thread, I already tried that.  I never heard back.  Feel free to give it a try.

Ah. Sorry.
I missed that.

And I won't try.

Probably, in a time where only letters and telephones existed, we would have had more chance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 30, 2017, 10:54:36 AM
I should note that I was working in concert with a Briton trying to hunt down the same information.  He likewise received no information. 

For kicks and grins, I'm going to contact https://bpse.org/, of which PBS is the international president and Andras Schiff is the UK president.  I predict I will not hear anything back.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 30, 2017, 10:59:40 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 30, 2017, 10:54:36 AM
[...]
For kicks and grins, I'm going to contact https://bpse.org/, of which PBS is the international president and Andras Schiff is the UK president.  I predict I will not hear anything back.

:laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 30, 2017, 11:06:37 AM
Quote from: Pat B on October 28, 2017, 03:00:37 AM
RCA started recording in stereo in early 1954. It's possible that Westminster recorded in stereo in 1955 even though they didn't release in stereo until a few years later. It's also possible that the MHS set was artificial stereo from a mono original.

Wikipedia says MHS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_Heritage_Society) was founded in 1962 and Intercord (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercord) in 1966. But the online discography (http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html) has a recording date of 1955 for the Intercord/MHS cycle. My guess is those labels licensed the recordings from whoever owned Westminster's catalog at the time.

Will be interesting to see what Jens learns!

Westminster was acquired by ABC records in the "early 60's," but another interesting tidbit is that MHS was founded by one of the founders of Westminster.  The Westminster PBS/Beethoven sonatas started in 1953, too early to imagine that they were making stereo master tapes.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 30, 2017, 09:30:10 AM
I can confirm that the information on BPS's website is faulty at least in this regard: The INTERCORD cycle was the one recorded in 1970 for the Konzerthaus which was then edited by Rico Gulda und Albert Franz for CD release on Gramola in the early 2000s.

So if there is a 1955 cycle, it wasn't for Intercord. It may have been for Westminster. I don't know if the Heritage Society one is the same as the Intercord (I would assume so much).

The RBS web site lists 3 LPs of Beethoven Sonatas on Westminster. I've seen one (Sonata #28, 30) offered for sale on eBay with Westminster branded cover art. Another with three named sonatas is included in the PBS edition on DG.

Surprised by Beauty, if you have any contacts at Deutsche Grammophon, they would be in a position to find out. Maybe they could look into the log book of Westminster tapes and see how many PBS/Beethoven Sonata albums are in there. They must have access, since they were able to dig up that one disc of Beethoven Sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 30, 2017, 11:10:34 AM
FWIW, I sent the suggestion of PBS Beethoven Sonatas from the Westminster Catalog as a suggestion to Australian Eloquence. Feels like a message in a bottle.

Quote from: Marc on October 30, 2017, 10:49:50 AM
Ah. Sorry.
I missed that.

And I won't try.

Probably, in a time where only letters and telephones existed, we would have had more chance.

Yes, in those days when effort was required to send a message there was a lot less fluff to wade through. Maybe the thing to do is to actually send a letter through the mail. If you made the effort to buy the stamp, maybe you can be depended upon to make the effort to buy the thing if they release it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 30, 2017, 11:41:05 AM
Electronic contacts are easy, so I already contacted bpse.org, and I used DG's contact feature to inquire about both the possible existence of a Paul Badura-Skoda cycle for Westminster and the possibility of reissuing Gotthard Kladetzky's cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 30, 2017, 12:06:16 PM
Maybe in classical world this counts as "buzz."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 30, 2017, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2017, 12:06:16 PM
Maybe in classical world this counts as "buzz."


That's reserved for Lang Lang.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on October 30, 2017, 09:43:38 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2017, 11:06:37 AM
Westminster was acquired by ABC records in the "early 60's," but another interesting tidbit is that MHS was founded by one of the founders of Westminster.  The Westminster PBS/Beethoven sonatas started in 1953, too early to imagine that they were making stereo master tapes.

What I was primarily thinking, but did not clearly express, is that I doubt there are four complete cycles.

Agree that Westminster 1953 is extremely unlikely to be stereo. (I had only seen 1955, which is early but plausible for a small label. Mercury went stereo in 1955.) That may be a moot point. Jens says Gramola and Intercord are the same cycle. The tidiest explanation for the "stereo" label on the MHS set is that it is also the Intercord.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on October 31, 2017, 01:11:54 AM
I do not know about these piano recordings but the Westminster orchestral recordings I have from ca. 1955 or even 1957 are all still mono. I'd guess they started around 1957/58 (Scherchen's stereo Eroica and Mozart Requiem are from 1958).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 31, 2017, 08:03:52 AM
My correspondence with Eloquence Australia

QuotePaul Badura-Skoda recorded a series of Beethoven Piano Sonatas for Westminster in 1953-55 (perhaps even a complete cycle, the discographies available on-line seem to be incomplete). Deutsche Grammophon acquired this catalog and has release a small subset. It would be wonderful to see a series of Paul Badura-Skoda recordings from the Westminster catalog, particularly the unreleased Beethoven Sonatas.

QuoteThank you

I'm encouraged. I think "Thank You" was written by a human.

Come on, now it is up to the rest of you to heighten the "buzz."
:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 31, 2017, 08:23:43 AM
How does one go about hiring a Russian Troll Army?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 31, 2017, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 31, 2017, 08:03:52 AM
[...]
I'm encouraged. I think "Thank You" was written by a human.
[...]

:laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on October 31, 2017, 10:22:13 AM
Quote from: Marc on October 31, 2017, 10:18:03 AM
:laugh:

I'm not kidding, it arrived several hours after my email. If I had gotten a three paragraph reply 10 milliseconds after hitting send I would know that no human had seen it.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on October 31, 2017, 11:33:25 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 31, 2017, 10:22:13 AM
I'm not kidding, it arrived several hours after my email. If I had gotten a three paragraph reply 10 milliseconds after hitting send I would know that no human had seen it.  :)

I didn't think you were kidding... I just found the way you described it funny (in a positive way). :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 01, 2017, 05:38:28 AM
Unexpectedly, I heard back from the Beethoven Piano Society of Europe.  I explained that I was on a mission to collect all Beethoven piano sonata cycles, and that I needed some clarification as to how many times PBS recorded the cycle.  The reply from the administrator of BPSE (I excluded her name) more or less referenced the PBS web-site.  This sort of makes me conclude that PBS recorded two cycles only, which I already own.  Hopefully, DG will respond and offer definitive information regarding whether a Westminster set exists.


Hi Todd,

Thanks for your message. I believe the Intercord (12 LP) and the Gramola cycles are not the same. The first set is recorded in 1955 and the latter is recorded in 1969/70. And it seems Badura-Skoda recorded only separate sonatas for the Westminster Label.

You will find his discog of Beethoven recordings here. Hope this helps and good luck with your mission!

Best,
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 01, 2017, 07:39:23 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Rz2zxxh.gif)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 01, 2017, 10:07:57 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 01, 2017, 05:38:28 AM
Unexpectedly, I heard back from the Beethoven Piano Society of Europe.  I explained that I was on a mission to collect all Beethoven piano sonata cycles, and that I needed some clarification as to how many times PBS recorded the cycle.  The reply from the administrator of BPSE (I excluded her name) more or less referenced the PBS web-site.  This sort of makes me conclude that PBS recorded two cycles only, which I already own.  Hopefully, DG will respond and offer definitive information regarding whether a Westminster set exists.


Hi Todd,

Thanks for your message. I believe the Intercord (12 LP) and the Gramola cycles are not the same. The first set is recorded in 1955 and the latter is recorded in 1969/70. And it seems Badura-Skoda recorded only separate sonatas for the Westminster Label.

You will find his discog of Beethoven recordings here. Hope this helps and good luck with your mission!

Best,


Hmm.. we know this is false, because the head of Gramola told me that Gramola re-issued the Intercord cycle which was recorded at Vienna's Konzerthaus in 1970. This leaves the idea of a complete 1955 PBS cycle mysterious. I hope my interview sessions pan out (he's battling pancreatic cancer and the chemo's gotten him down); might be the only (or at least most realistic) chance to solve the mystery. ("The Case of the Missing Beethoven Sonatas"... Where was Mr. Doyle, when we needed him?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on November 01, 2017, 02:15:37 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 01, 2017, 10:07:57 AM
I hope my interview sessions pan out (he's battling pancreatic cancer and the chemo's gotten him down); might be the only (or at least most realistic) chance to solve the mystery.

Seems like a moot point if they weren't issued on vinyl and the tapes are not in UMG's archives.

Pancreatic cancer. Not good. If you do talk to him, pass on some good wishes from GMG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 06, 2017, 10:06:21 AM
I actually heard back from DG:


We have not forgotten you ... but processing your request (#<redacted>) is still taking some time.

If you have any further comments on your request, please reply to this e-mail.

Best regards
Your Universal Music Team



Maybe I'll get some definitive info, after all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 10, 2017, 07:39:02 AM
.
[asin]B075V1DG83[/asin]


Jean Muller's cycle is being reissued as a super-budget box.  Peter Roesel's cycle is being reissued as a super-premium UHQCD set, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 10, 2017, 01:11:52 PM
I had a dream that I was chatting with Badura Skoda and we got on very well. When I launched into the Beethoven cycle question, he started laughing (sort of as though he'd heard that one a gazillion times before)... but I pulled through with my whole question all the same.

Unfortunately, in my dream he didn't answer the question or if he did, I don't recall. Then again, it still wouldn't be helpful, since it was only a dream, I suppose.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Parsifal on November 15, 2017, 08:15:05 PM
I have a minor obsession with Paul Badura-Skoda recordings, a minor obsession with Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles, a minor obsession with obscure mono recordings and a minor obsession with the Westminster record label. Minor obsession to the forth power equals major obsession for this hypothesized PBD mono piano sonata cycle recorded in '53-55 on Westminster.

Having no faith that the DGG people could find it even if it existed, I tried another tack. I obtained the Schwann catalog of long playing records from November 1956 and from June 1960.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/8y0AAOSwiYFXJ3jv/s-l225.jpg)

This would allow me to find all PBS recordings available in the U.S. at these two dates. By tabulating recordings from both dates I hoped to avoid missing albums which had not yet been released in 1956, and which might have gone out of print by 1960.

Alas, this is all I found:

Westminster 18274: Sonatas 8, 14, 23
Westminster 18210: Sonatas 15, 17
Westminster 18617: Sonatas 28, 30

The first two appeared in both catalogs, the last only appeared in the 1960 catalog. Incidentally, Westminster recorded made more Beethoven sonatas with other pianists, including Applebaum, Barenboim, Lewenthal, Lateiner and Petri, but did not have complete coverage of the cycle

Of course, this does not prove there is no PBS mono cycle, it merely fails to prove there is a PBS mono cycle. It is possible that other recordings were made but were not offered for sale in the U.S. and therefore didn't appear in the Schwann catalog.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on December 05, 2017, 12:34:30 PM
Todd, can you comment on Peter Rosel's complete sonatas??  I recently got the  reissue on Berlin Classics of the popular sonatas  from 1980 and was very impressed. How is his later Japanese set? Thanks
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2017, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 05, 2017, 12:34:30 PM
Todd, can you comment on Peter Rosel's complete sonatas??  I recently got the  reissue on Berlin Classics of the popular sonatas  from 1980 and was very impressed. How is his later Japanese set? Thanks


See http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23264.msg805932.html#msg805932

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 05, 2017, 01:38:36 PM
Deleted - posted in wrong thread -  :-[   ???  Dave ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2017, 02:36:58 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 05, 2017, 01:38:36 PM
Monteverdi, Claudio (1567-1643) - Madrigrals & Vespro dello Beata Vergine - selections from the CDs below - still reading about medieval & Renaissance music - Dave :)

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dj-uaVsqqQM/hqdefault.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61jhTwIX4hL.jpg)

And uhh... what about their Ludwigs?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 06, 2017, 11:05:27 AM
This idea suggests that a search of the Gramophone database might be the next step.

Quote from: Parsifal on November 15, 2017, 08:15:05 PM
I have a minor obsession with Paul Badura-Skoda recordings, a minor obsession with Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles, a minor obsession with obscure mono recordings and a minor obsession with the Westminster record label. Minor obsession to the forth power equals major obsession for this hypothesized PBD mono piano sonata cycle recorded in '53-55 on Westminster.

Having no faith that the DGG people could find it even if it existed, I tried another tack. I obtained the Schwann catalog of long playing records from November 1956 and from June 1960.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/8y0AAOSwiYFXJ3jv/s-l225.jpg)

This would allow me to find all PBS recordings available in the U.S. at these two dates. By tabulating recordings from both dates I hoped to avoid missing albums which had not yet been released in 1956, and which might have gone out of print by 1960.

Alas, this is all I found:

Westminster 18274: Sonatas 8, 14, 23
Westminster 18210: Sonatas 15, 17
Westminster 18617: Sonatas 28, 30

The first two appeared in both catalogs, the last only appeared in the 1960 catalog. Incidentally, Westminster recorded made more Beethoven sonatas with other pianists, including Applebaum, Barenboim, Lewenthal, Lateiner and Petri, but did not have complete coverage of the cycle

Of course, this does not prove there is no PBS mono cycle, it merely fails to prove there is a PBS mono cycle. It is possible that other recordings were made but were not offered for sale in the U.S. and therefore didn't appear in the Schwann catalog.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 06, 2017, 02:21:27 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 06, 2017, 02:36:58 AM
And uhh... what about their Ludwigs?

Thanks Marc - obviously I posted in the wrong thread - will delete and put in the listening one -  :-[ ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2017, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 06, 2017, 02:21:27 PM
Thanks Marc - obviously I posted in the wrong thread - will delete and put the the listening one -  :-[ ;D  Dave

It's OK. I like Monteverdi, too. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on December 15, 2017, 04:03:39 AM
Todd--what do you know of the set by Martin Rasch being released soon on Audite (may be a reissue from another label)--I don't see him on your list. Presto Classical lists it on their future releases. It is a cheap set
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 15, 2017, 04:47:26 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 15, 2017, 04:03:39 AM
Todd--what do you know of the set by Martin Rasch being released soon on Audite (may be a reissue from another label)--I don't see him on your list. Presto Classical lists it on their future releases. It is a cheap set


All I know is that it was released in Germany last month and will be released in other markets in the next few months.  I'll probably buy it at the start of the year.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 15, 2017, 05:37:42 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 15, 2017, 04:03:39 AM
Todd--what do you know of the set by Martin Rasch being released soon on Audite (may be a reissue from another label)--I don't see him on your list. Presto Classical lists it on their future releases. It is a cheap set

Not much out there yet. Some technical info, FYI.

Erste Aufnahme: August 2014

Letzte Aufnahme: August 2016

Aufnahmeort: Hochschule für Musik und Theater München, Großer Konzertsaal

Instrument: Steinway D

Recording Producer: Christian Böhm

Executive Producer: Dipl.-Tonmeister Ludger Böckenhoff

Not much on the website, either.

https://www.audite.de/en/product/9CD/21451-ludwig_van_beethoven_the_complete_piano_sonatas.html
https://www.pianist-rasch.de/
A bit more here: https://www.pianist-rasch.de/beethoven-sonaten/





Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on December 15, 2017, 06:03:12 AM
Aber Ich hoffe dass er nicht zu rasch spielt  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 15, 2017, 06:06:26 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 15, 2017, 06:03:12 AM
Aber Ich hoffe dass er nicht zu rasch spielt  :)


Judging by the timings, that is no concern.  The cycle is available on YouTube.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 15, 2017, 06:42:42 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 15, 2017, 06:03:12 AM
Aber Ich hoffe dass er nicht zu rasch spielt  :)

Mawk-mawk-mawk!  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 27, 2017, 05:35:36 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51l9Q%2BlEMgL._SS425.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JlmFHFQXL._SS425.jpg)


Looks like I missed a cycle.  I've not seen anyone else mention it yet, either, though maybe I missed relevant posts.  Sebastian Forster's 2012 cycle is available at CD Baby as MP3 downloads for $60.  (https://store.cdbaby.com/Search/U2ViYXN0aWFuIEZvcnN0ZXI%3d/0)  Alternatively, it is one of over three dozen complete cycles available for streaming on Amazon Music.  I've not checked other streaming services.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 01, 2018, 09:59:22 AM
I had a hankering to put together an updated list of all available complete cycles.  By my reckoning, 112 complete cycles exist, of which I possess 104.  Of the 112 cycles, either five or six might not be considered complete since in some cases the pianist died or stopped before recording all sonatas in a given cycle, or in the case of HJ Lim, she purposely left out the Op 49 sonatas.  That brings the total available to either 106 or 107, and my total to either 98 or 99 cycles.  With all the cycles underway, these totals will change.  I also decided to include the country each pianist is from to determine a geographical breakdown of sonata cycles, just for fun.  (Yes, I consider that fun, and yes, I know that it is not entirely accurate since a pianist can be born in one country but become an essentially permanent resident of another country, like Irina Mejoueva or Anton Kuerti, but I took a stab at it, anyway.)  It will be in the next post.




















































































































Country   
Pianist
  Complete  Copy
Lebanon   
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
 
Y
 
Y
Lebanon   
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Akiyoshi Sako
 
Y
 
Y
Italy   
Aldo Ciccolini
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
 
Y
 
Y
Chile   
Alfredo Perl
 
Y
 
Y
Hungary   
Andras Schiff
 
Y
 
Y
Belgium   
Andre De Groote
 
Y
 
Y
Italy   
Andrea Lucchesini
 
Y
 
Y
Denmark   
Anne Oland
 
Y
 
Y
Hungary   
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
 
Y
 
Y
Canada   
Anton Kuerti
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Artur Schnabel
 
Y
 
Y
UK   
Bernard Roberts
 
Y
 
Y
Italy   
Christian Leotta
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Claude Frank
 
Y
 
Y
Chile   
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
 
Y
 
Y
Chile   
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
 
N
 
Y
USA   
Craig Sheppard
 
Y
 
Y
Argentina   
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
 
Y
 
Y
Argentina   
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
 
Y
 
Y
Argentina   
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Daniela Varinska
 
Y
 
N
South Africa   
Daniel-Ben Pienaar
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
David Allen Wehr
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Dieter Zechlin
 
Y
 
Y
Italy   
Dino Ciani
 
Y
 
Y
Spain   
Eduardo del Pueyo
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Emil Gilels
 
N
 
Y
France   
Eric Heidsieck
 
Y
 
Y
France   
Francois Frederic Guy
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Garrick Ohlsson
 
Y
 
Y
France   
Georges Pludermacher
 
Y
 
Y
Australia   
Gerard Willems
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Gerhard Oppitz
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Gotthard Kladetzky
 
Y
 
N
Japan   
Hiroaki Ooi
 
Y
 
N
Korea   
HJ Lim
 
Y
 
Y
UK   
Ian Hobson
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Ichiro Nodaira
 
Y
 
Y
Turkey   
Idil Biret
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Ikuyo Nakamichi
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Irina Mejoueva
 
Y
 
Y
France   
Jean Bernard Pommier
 
Y
 
Y
Luxembourg   
Jean Muller
 
Y
 
Y
France   
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
 
Y
 
Y
Hungary   
Jeno Jando
 
Y
 
Y
UK   
John Lill
 
Y
 
Y
Ireland   
John O'Conor
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
 
Y
 
Y
Korea   
Kun-Woo Paik
 
Y
 
Y
Canada   
Louie Lortie
 
Y
 
Y
Mixed   
Malcolm Bilson, et al
 
Y
 
N
UK   
Malcolm Binns
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Mari Kodama
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Maria Grinburg
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Martin Rasch
 
Y
 
Y
Italy   
Maurizio Pollini
 
Y
 
Y
Switzerland   
Melodie Zhao
 
Y
 
Y
New Zealand   
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
 
Y
 
Y
New Zealand   
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Michael Korstick
 
Y
 
Y
France   
Michael Levinas
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Michael Steinberg
 
Y
 
N
Austria   
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
 
Y
 
Y
UK   
Paul Lewis
 
Y
 
Y
Finland   
Pavaali Jumppanen
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Peter Rösel
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Peter Takacs
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Richard Goode
 
Y
 
Y
Greece   
Rita Bouboulidi
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Robert Benz
 
Y
 
Y
Norway   
Robert Riefling
 
Y
 
N
Canada   
Robert Silverman
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Robert Taub
 
Y
 
Y
Netherlands   
Ronald Brautigam
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
 
Y
 
Y
Austria   
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Russell Sherman
 
Y
 
Y
Argentina   
Sebastian Forster
 
Y
 
Y
Portugal   
Sequeira Costa
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Seymour Lipkin
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Shoko Sugitani
 
Y
 
N
USA   
Stephen Kovacevich
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Steven Herbert Smith
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Steven Masi
 
Y
 
Y
Canada   
Stewart Goodyear
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Tatiana Nikolayeva
 
Y
 
Y
USA   
Timothy Ehlen
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Vladimir Ashkenazy
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Walter Gieseking (EMI)
 
N
 
N
Germany   
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
 
N
 
Y
Germany   
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
 
N
 
Y
Germany   
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
 
Y
 
Y
Germany   
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yaeko Yamane
 
Y
 
Y
Korea   
Younwha Lee
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yu Kosuge
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yukio Yokoyama
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yusuke Kikuchi
 
Y
 
Y
France   
Yves Nat
 
Y
 
Y
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 01, 2018, 09:59:38 AM
Cycles by country of origin of pianist:

































Country   
Count
Germany    14
USA    14
Japan    13
Austria    12
France    7
Russia    6
UK    5
Italy    5
Canada    4
Argentina    4
Korea    3
Chile    3
Hungary    3
Lebanon    2
New Zealand    2
Ireland    1
Spain    1
Australia    1
Netherlands    1
Turkey    1
Finland    1
Portugal    1
Belgium    1
South Africa    1
Denmark    1
Switzerland    1
Luxembourg    1
Mixed    1
Greece    1
Norway    1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 01, 2018, 10:03:16 AM
For Amazon Music users, the Malcolm Bilson led cycle is available for streaming.  I have no interest in buying the cycle, but I will likely stream it.

Also, Muriel Chemin's three volumes from her never finished cycle are available for streaming.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2018, 01:03:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 01, 2018, 09:59:38 AM
Cycles by country of origin of pianist:

































Country   
Count
USA    14
Japan    13
Germany    13
Austria    12
France    7
Russia    6
UK    5
Italy    5
Canada    4
Korea    3
Argentina    3
Chile    3
Hungary    3
Lebanon    2
New Zealand    2
Ireland    1
Spain    1
Australia    1
Netherlands    1
Turkey    1
Finland    1
Portugal    1
Belgium    1
South Africa    1
Denmark    1
Switzerland    1
Luxembourg    1
Mixed    1
Greece    1
Norway    1

Awesome!

(https://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_596,c_limit,q_auto:best,f_auto,fl_lossy/fc/3021307-inline-fb-thumbsup-printpackaging.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2018, 02:03:37 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2018, 01:03:36 PM
Awesome!

(https://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_596,c_limit,q_auto:best,f_auto,fl_lossy/fc/3021307-inline-fb-thumbsup-printpackaging.jpg)

Hi Todd - excellent compilations - thanks! Agree w/ the above!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 01, 2018, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 01, 2018, 09:59:22 AM
I had a hankering to put together an updated list of all available complete cycles.  By my reckoning, 110 complete cycles exist, of which I possess 102.

I only own 60 of these.

Is there hope for me anymore?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 01, 2018, 02:47:21 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2018, 02:12:24 PMIs there hope for me anymore?


There is always hope.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on January 01, 2018, 06:21:01 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2018, 02:12:24 PM
I only own 60 of these.

Is there hope for me anymore?
Don't feel bad. I only have 18.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on January 01, 2018, 06:33:38 PM
I have uh...... six. And ten fingers but that doesn't count.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 02, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 01, 2018, 09:59:22 AM
Korea   
HJ Lim
 
Y
 
Y

Why listed as complete? She skipped two sonatas because they were published against Beethoven's wishes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 02, 2018, 10:06:40 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 02, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
Why listed as complete? She skipped two sonatas because they were published against Beethoven's wishes.


Oversight.  Maybe I'll fix the list later.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 02, 2018, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: The One on January 02, 2018, 09:38:58 AM
Where does Robert Benz's set stand for instance?


Fourth tier for me. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,25341.msg933122.html#msg933122)  YMMV.  I'll have to update my list.  There are up to 111 complete cycles, which is a nice number, however temporary.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 02, 2018, 11:49:06 AM
Quote from: The One on January 02, 2018, 10:33:17 AM
I have more than 100 :). No sane human being needs more than 10 :(

Well, I definitely feel I need more then ten - so I must consider myself insane. :-[
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 02, 2018, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 02, 2018, 11:49:06 AM
Well, I definitely feel I need more then ten - so I must consider myself insane. :-[

I don't know exactly, somewhere between 10-20 - but I keep playing the same ones: Lucchesini, Guy, Tackas, and Biss, although his is not complete yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 02, 2018, 01:15:11 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 02, 2018, 12:49:48 PM
I don't know exactly, somewhere between 10-20 - but I keep playing the same ones: Lucchesini, Guy, Tackas, and Biss, although his is not complete yet.

Takacs is attractive, but the publisher has let it go out of print.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on January 02, 2018, 01:32:21 PM
Quote from: amw on January 01, 2018, 06:33:38 PM
I have uh...... six. And ten fingers but that doesn't count.

That's 5 more than me. Note: I don't mean a deficit of fingers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DaveF on January 02, 2018, 02:30:01 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 01, 2018, 09:59:38 AM
Cycles by country of origin of pianist:

My second thought (my first being what an amazing piece of research) was Ha! you've missed Cyprus, but then discovered that although Martino Tirimo has performed them all (in the Shire Hall in Hereford, of all places, about 20 years ago, most of which concerts I attended) he doesn't seem to have recorded a single sonata, which given the quality of his live performances is rather a shame.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 03, 2018, 01:08:05 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 02, 2018, 01:32:21 PM
That's 5 more than me. Note: I don't mean a deficit of fingers.
Which one do you have?

I have barely six: Schnabel, Arrau, Gulda, Heidsieck, Lucchesini, Gilels (incomplete, therefore barely). I also have all pieces (although not necessarily all alternative recordings) recorded by Gould and Serkin and most of the ones recorded by Richter, Edwin Fischer and Gelber. And dozens of single discs etc.
I have put any further acquisitions of that repertoire on hold but at some later time the most likely additions are the completion (or preferably a box, but I have already 5 single discs, so a box would have to be quite cheap) of the Brautigam HIP cycle (they sound very good for historical instruments and the interpretations are also good but fairly mainstream and not really as revealing or different as one could expect historically informed recordings to be, that's one reason I stopped buying more of them) or the famous "standard recommendations" Kempff and Backhaus. I have heard several discs from these last two and so far not yielded to their charms.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on January 03, 2018, 01:15:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 03, 2018, 01:08:05 AM
Which one do you have?

Kovacevich.

I do have about 3 CDs of other sonata recordings, but just the one cycle. Getting a 2nd is on my to-do list.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 03, 2018, 01:30:10 AM
With the cheap re-issue the Kovacevich is also somewhat on my radar although not high priority as I have his older Philips recordings and about three singles from the EMI where I concurred with the often heard opinion that both playing and sound are a little too much on the aggressive side.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on January 03, 2018, 03:26:38 AM
Sometimes too aggressive? Yes, occasionally. The Appassionata is the one that stands out for me in that regard, it's always been a bit uncomfortable. But only occasionally would I say the playing is aggressive. In my view, more often it's dynamic without tipping over. And there are works and movements where a comparison between Kovacevich and another version I have is very much in his favour.

I certainly don't have any problem with the sound in the edition that I have.

I seem to remember reading that he actually re-recorded a few sonatas for the box because he wasn't happy with what he had done for the single releases. Off the top of my head I think it was op.2 he did that for.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on January 03, 2018, 03:54:38 AM
I have 8 cycles (including Schnabel, Kuerti, Korstick, Annie Fischer, Goodyear) but consider 3 of them of less interest (Brendel/Vox, Kempff/DG, Gulda/Amadeo). Skipped another one recently. Lots of individual albums too, so 27 Appassionatas, for example. I agree that Kovacevich is currently tempting, but I've stopped for now, with the possible exception of a cheap LP record now and then, perhaps.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 04:09:30 AM
Quote from: Turner on January 03, 2018, 03:54:38 AM
I have 8 cycles (including Schnabel, Kuerti, Korstick, Annie Fischer, Goodyear) but consider 3 of them of less interest (Brendel/Vox, Kempff/DG, Gulda/Amadeo). Skipped another one recently. Lots of individual albums too, so 27 Appassionatas, for example. I agree that Kovacevich is currently tempting, but I've stopped for now, with the possible exception of a cheap LP record now and then, perhaps.

Well, I have also skipped some (Gould, Ciani, Øland, Kuerti, Schiff and Nicolajevna), and I do not intend to acquire more, other than exceptional sets. This is why I recently got Goodyear's set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on January 03, 2018, 04:17:18 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 03, 2018, 04:09:30 AM
Well, I have also skipped some (Gould, Ciani, Øland, Kuerti and Nicolajevna), and I do not intend to acquire more, other than exceptional sets. This is why I recently got Goodyear's set.
What I've heard of Øland wasn't remarkable, and Ciani too (it wasn't Beethoven though, and I know that some hold him in esteem). I guess Nikolaeva is a bit sketchy and rough (a guess only, didn't hear her in Beethoven), but the eccentricities of Gould and Kuerti certainly appeal to me personally - Kuerti, it must be said, of a rather introvert sort ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on January 03, 2018, 05:27:14 AM
Badura-Skoda on Astrée is the cycle I consider indispensable and listen to most often, and practically speaking the only one I "need", but I also have Schiff, Goodyear, Shimizu, Kikuchi, and Jumppanen. And through streaming I have listened to most or all of Fischer, Kovacevich, Pienaar, Korstick, Pollini, Brautigam, Levinas, Frank, Schnabel, Gulda I & III, Lim, Brendel I & II, and Zhao, of which I found Kovacevich and Pienaar to be the most interesting and Fischer to be the best. I mean I guess I've heard a lot of cycles then, and am just low on available hard disk space for them.

I haven't practiced the piano in 750 years but back when I did, the sonatas I had learned were 31/2 and 109. 31/2 is where I'd start again if I ever go back to playing regularly, since it's easier but still has some useful challenges, but maybe work my way up to it through an easier sonata like 22. eventually of course my sights are set on 106 but that's not realistic for me at the moment—don't have enough control or security in any aspect of technique yet. Getting secure with easier beethoven sonatas & mozart & Bach fugues is what's important if you ever want to try the hammerklavier, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 03, 2018, 05:51:31 AM
Quote from: amw on January 03, 2018, 05:27:14 AM
Badura-Skoda on Astrée is the cycle I consider indispensable and listen to most often, and practically speaking the only one I "need", but I also have Schiff, Goodyear, Shimizu, Kikuchi, and Jumppanen. And through streaming I have listened to most or all of Fischer, Kovacevich, Pienaar, Korstick, Pollini, Brautigam, Levinas, Frank, Schnabel, Gulda I & III, Lim, Brendel I & II, and Zhao, of which I found Kovacevich and Pienaar to be the most interesting and Fischer to be the best. I mean I guess I've heard a lot of cycles then, and am just low on available hard disk space for them.

I haven't practiced the piano in 750 years but back when I did, the sonatas I had learned were 31/2 and 109. 31/2 is where I'd start again if I ever go back to playing regularly, since it's easier but still has some useful challenges, but maybe work my way up to it through an easier sonata like 22. eventually of course my sights are set on 106 but that's not realistic for me at the moment—don't have enough control or security in any aspect of technique yet. Getting secure with easier beethoven sonatas & mozart & Bach fugues is what's important if you ever want to try the hammerklavier, as far as I can tell.

I had momentarily forgotten about Schiff's ECM cycle.  They are available to stream, and I've listened to some - I might splurge for the box.  I am enjoying his new recordings of both Beethoven and Bach on ECM.  In fact, ECM New Series is challenging Hyperion as my favorite label.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 06:02:13 AM
Quote from: Turner on January 03, 2018, 04:17:18 AM
What I've heard of Øland wasn't remarkable, and Ciani too (it wasn't Beethoven though, and I know that some hold him in esteem). I guess Nikolaeva is a bit sketchy and rough (a guess only, didn't hear her in Beethoven), but the eccentricities of Gould and Kuerti certainly appeal to me personally - Kuerti, it must be said, of a rather introvert sort ...

Nicolajevna's set is a live recording, made late in her career, and filled with an extraordinary large amount of fingerslips and failing memory, so much that it is impossible to enjoy the playing. And concerning Gould and Kuerti - yes it was their eccentricities I did not stand. Strange because there are other eccentric pianists I find rather good Heidsieck, Pienaar, Lim and Eduardo del Pueyo e,g.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 06:05:01 AM
Quote from: The One on January 03, 2018, 04:15:00 AM
I consider myself a total Beethoven freak

I was once, but the growing number of available recordings eventually made a completistic strategy impossible. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 06:59:47 AM
Quote from: The One on January 03, 2018, 06:12:44 AM
That is implied in "freak"

Admittedly English is not my first tongue, but in my book "freak" means an eccentric enthusiast / addict, and does not imply whether one in practice is able to live ones interests out or not. Completism is eccentric, but I have given it up. So I was a freak, but am not anymore. Correct me if there is somthing I got wrong.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 08:11:21 AM
Quote from: The One on January 03, 2018, 07:30:59 AM
This was per Jens' knowledge of English but he deleted his post :))

No, not at all. "Freak" comes with a bit exaggeration and ambition. The common denominator with a completist should be the obsessiveness.

Well, obsessiveness was what I implied in the word addict,

Am / is  - of course, a stupid mistake because I have to think about the grammar all the time. :)

Jens often deletes his posts. He should know me that well by now, that I am not easily offended.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 10:12:36 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 03, 2018, 08:11:21 AM

Jens often deletes his posts. He should know me that well by now, that I am not easily offended.

Now I offended for not wanting to offend?  :o ;D

I often think that I've come up with something totally hilarious and post it on the net -- only to find that someone took great offense. And it really gets to me, every time. So I'd rather err on the side of caution after the fact, if I can't err on the side of prudence in the first place.  :-\

Cheers

P.S. "aren't", technically.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 10:33:03 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 10:12:36 AM
Now I offended for not wanting to offend?  :o ;D

Only if someone else was offended on my behalf. And this sounds unlikely.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty
I often think that I've come up with something totally hilarious and post it on the net -- only to find that someone took great offense. And it really gets to me, every time. So I'd rather err on the side of caution after the fact, if I can't err on the side of prudence in the first place.  :-\

Cheers

P.S. "aren't", technically.

I understand you well, and it is always frustrating if others are offended on an invisible basis. What I note is that your posts always are meant in a friendly way.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 11:19:17 AM
Quote from: The One on January 03, 2018, 10:57:31 AM
Noo. You didn't see it. It was really offensive. And not only to you, there were some heavy stuff directed to Danes...or was it to danish cake, can never be sure. But I remember crying when I first read it. [sinister whisper] Never forgive himm. Master knows. Yes, Precious...

Hmm, now I am becoming curious. But until proven otherwise I am going to suppose, that he [Surprised by Beauty] just wanted to express some innocent humor.

P.S. It has never occurred to me, that you [the one] might be Danish.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 03, 2018, 11:19:17 AM
Hmm, now I am becoming curious. But until proven otherwise I am going to suppose, that he just wanted to express some innocent humor.

P.S. It has never occurred to me, that you might be Danish.

He's kidding. I was just supposing that you were Danish and consequently likely better at both English and possibly German than many an average native speaker.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 02:31:24 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 12:56:14 PM
He's kidding.

Yes, I thought so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 03, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 12:56:14 PM
He's kidding.

He?  I assumed The One was a Neanderthal woman.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 02:37:40 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 12:56:14 PM
I was just supposing that you were Danish and consequently likely better at both English and possibly German than many an average native speaker.

You may be right, at least concerning English, I don't know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 03, 2018, 02:43:01 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 03, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
He?  I assumed The One was a Neanderthal woman.

Yes, everyone has got to choose one's avatar with care, even The One.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Josquin13 on January 03, 2018, 07:53:25 PM
Unfortunately, many of the finest Beethoven pianists I've heard in my life never recorded or finished a complete set of all 32 Piano Sonatas: Such as Rudolf Serkin, Sviatoslav Richter, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Emil Gilels, Solomon, Miecyslaw Horszowski, Edwin Fischer, Youra Guller, Zoltan Kocsis, Bruno-Leonardo Gelber, Clara Haskil, Penelope Crawford, and Glenn Gould (who could be either brilliant or off the mark in Beethoven, depending on the sonata--in my view).  But I am very grateful for what Beethoven I have from these remarkable pianists.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 03, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
He?  I assumed The One was a Neanderthal woman.

I assumed it was a candid selfie.  ???

But back to Beethoven:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81RQlG9x9OL._SL1200_.jpg)

Beethoven: Complete Piano Sonatas
JEAN-EFFLAM BAVOUZET (http://amzn.to/2Cpkjit)

Bavouzet's cycle is out as a set now... I didn't entirely warm to volume 1 but I'll re-immerse myself soonish.

And I have to update my Beethoven Sonata survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html), finally.

Anyone have any information on Aquieles delle Vigne's cycle on WideClassique?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:43:51 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 02, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
Why listed as complete? She skipped two sonatas because they were published against Beethoven's wishes.

I looked into this a few years ago. As far as I could tell, the "against Beethoven's wishes" idea is backed by no evidence besides the delay from writing to publication. Quite a leap of logic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 03, 2018, 03:26:38 AM
I seem to remember reading that he actually re-recorded a few sonatas for the box because he wasn't happy with what he had done for the single releases. Off the top of my head I think it was op.2 he did that for.

op. 32.

EDIT: I meant #32, op. 111.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:45:24 PM
Quote from: Josquin13 on January 03, 2018, 07:53:25 PM
Unfortunately, many of the finest Beethoven pianists I've heard in my life never recorded or finished a complete set of all 32 Piano Sonatas: Such as Rudolf Serkin, Sviatoslav Richter, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Emil Gilels, Solomon, Miecyslaw Horszowski, Edwin Fischer, Youra Guller, Zoltan Kocsis, Bruno-Leonardo Gelber, Clara Haskil, Penelope Crawford, and Glenn Gould (who could be either brilliant or off the mark in Beethoven, depending on the sonata--in my view).  But I am very grateful for what Beethoven I have from these remarkable pianists.

Nice list! In a similar vein for me is Ivan Moravec.

Of course there were a bunch of different reasons for those artists' incompleteness, some more unfortunate than others. Brian did a nice interview with Crawford (link (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm)) where she shares her thoughts on (among many other things) completeness, basically an issue of priority.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 04, 2018, 02:08:09 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
op. 32.

Beethoven op. 32 is a song with piano accompaniment "An die Hoffnung".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on January 04, 2018, 02:15:02 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:43:51 PM
I looked into this a few years ago. As far as I could tell, the "against Beethoven's wishes" idea is backed by no evidence besides the delay from writing to publication. Quite a leap of logic.

Well, not quite, it's part of a string of opuses that were all older pieces published later on, and as I understand it there's evidence that this was at the instigation of Beethoven's brother who at this point in time was taking over the business side of things.  So perhaps not against his express wishes, but not really his own idea.

I suspect it's also backed up by a feeling that he wouldn't have re-used material from a work if he was intending to publish the earlier work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on January 04, 2018, 02:38:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 04, 2018, 02:08:09 AM
Beethoven op. 32 is a song with piano accompaniment "An die Hoffnung".

Is that the song with the lyrics "Ich hoffe dass er nicht zu rasch spielt"?

Anyway, it's not in my Kovacevich box.
I want me money back.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 04, 2018, 03:16:19 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 04, 2018, 02:38:25 AM
Is that the song with the lyrics "Ich hoffe dass er nicht zu rasch spielt"?

Anyway, it's not in my Kovacevich box.
I want me money back.

Nor in mine - what a shame. And according to the post I quoted, Kovacevich even recorded it twice.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 04, 2018, 05:16:48 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 08:02:32 PMAnyone have any information on Aquieles delle Vigne's cycle on WideClassique?


I think he's only finished one volume so far, so I haven't paid much attention yet.  He has to get to more than halfway done before I will perk up.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 04, 2018, 05:57:24 AM
After reading the scant notes included in the text file provided with the MP3 files I bought, it turns out Sebastian Forster is Argentinian, giving that country the most cycles from South America.  There have been more cycles recorded by German pianists than pianists from any other country.  I updated the tables in the prior post.

I extracted a quick subset of women pianists who have completed the cycle, and added ongoing ones.  As of today, sixteen women that I know of have completed the cycle, and two more have one underway - Angela Hewitt and Letizia Michielon.  No women from either the US or Germany and Austria have recorded a complete cycle, nor has a woman from France, the UK, or most other European countries.  Curious.






















Country   
Pianist
  Complete  Copy
Canada   
Angela Hewitt
 
N
 
Y
Denmark   
Anne Oland
 
Y
 
Y
Hungary   
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Daniela Varinska
 
Y
 
N
Korea   
HJ Lim
 
Y
 
Y
Turkey   
Idil Biret
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Ikuyo Nakamichi
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Irina Mejoueva
 
Y
 
Y
Italy   
Letizia Michielon
 
N
 
N
Japan   
Mari Kodama
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Maria Grinburg
 
Y
 
Y
Switzerland   
Melodie Zhao
 
Y
 
Y
Greece   
Rita Bouboulidi
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Shoko Sugitani
 
Y
 
N
Russia   
Tatiana Nikolayeva
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yaeko Yamane
 
Y
 
Y
Korea   
Younwha Lee
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yu Kosuge
 
Y
 
Y














Country   
Count
Japan    5
Russia    4
Korea    2
Turkey    1
Denmark    1
Greece    1
Switzerland    1
Hungary    1
Canada    1
Italy    1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 04, 2018, 06:14:21 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 05:57:24 AM
After reading the scant notes included in the text file provided with the MP3 files I bought, it turns out Sebastian Forster is Argentinian, giving that country the most cycles from South America.  There have been more cycles recorded by German pianists than pianists from any other country.  I updated the tables in the prior post.

I extracted a quick subset of women pianists who have completed the cycle, and added ongoing ones.  As of today, sixteen women that I know of have completed the cycle, and two more have one underway - Angela Hewitt and Letizia Michielon.  No women from either the US or Germany and Austria have recorded a complete cycle, nor has a woman from France, the UK, or most other European countries.  Curious.






















Country   
Pianist
  Complete  Copy
Canada   
Angela Hewitt
 
N
 
Y
Denmark   
Anne Oland
 
Y
 
Y
Hungary   
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Daniela Varinska
 
Y
 
N
Korea   
HJ Lim
 
Y
 
Y
Turkey   
Idil Biret
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Ikuyo Nakamichi
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Irina Mejoueva
 
Y
 
Y
Italy   
Letizia Michielon
 
N
 
N
Japan   
Mari Kodama
 
Y
 
Y
Russia   
Maria Grinburg
 
Y
 
Y
Switzerland   
Melodie Zhao
 
Y
 
Y
Greece   
Rita Bouboulidi
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Shoko Sugitani
 
Y
 
N
Russia   
Tatiana Nikolayeva
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yaeko Yamane
 
Y
 
Y
Korea   
Younwha Lee
 
Y
 
Y
Japan   
Yu Kosuge
 
Y
 
Y














Country   
Count
Japan    5
Russia    4
Korea    2
Turkey    1
Denmark    1
Greece    1
Switzerland    1
Hungary    1
Canada    1
Italy    1

Interesting. I'm trying to even think of a top American born female pianist, and none comes to mind...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on January 04, 2018, 06:18:43 AM
It is currently the declared cultural policy in China to reduce Western influences, also backed by various regulations such as the allowed number of translated children´s books etc., but we might see some Chinese/quasi-Chinese cycle(s) in the future. I read that there are now 40 mio children playing the piano there. A cycle by Lang Lang (but would he have the stamina?) would perhaps be more of a curiosity, though. When performing Western classical music, the Chinese have sometimes had a tendency to sweeten it into some Chinese folksyness, I think ...

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 04, 2018, 06:25:53 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 04, 2018, 06:14:21 AM
Interesting. I'm trying to even think of a top American born female pianist, and none comes to mind...


Claire Huangci is an outstanding pianist, but she's not famous yet.  (Hopefully she gets there.)  Other living pianists of note, depending on outlook, include Ursula Oppens, Simone Dinnerstein, Anne-Marie McDermott, and Orli Shaham.  Ruth Laredo was quite good and reasonably famous.  But there should definitely be more and they don't seem to achieve the same type of fame as some male pianists.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on January 04, 2018, 06:36:04 AM
Claire Huangci's Scarlatti set is top drawer, IMHO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on January 04, 2018, 08:24:36 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 04, 2018, 02:08:09 AM
Beethoven op. 32 is a song with piano accompaniment "An die Hoffnung".

I misspelled "op. 111."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 04, 2018, 09:14:01 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 08:02:32 PM
And I have to update my Beethoven Sonata survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html), finally.


What's your total count?  Forster and Costa appear to be missing, though I spotted Tamami Honma's forthcoming cycle, so that's a seventeenth complete cycle from a woman, nineteenth all-in.  She boosts Japan's lead, though given that she has been in the US for a while, I guess she could alternatively be counted as an American.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on January 04, 2018, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 04, 2018, 02:15:02 AM
Well, not quite, it's part of a string of opuses that were all older pieces published later on, and as I understand it there's evidence that this was at the instigation of Beethoven's brother who at this point in time was taking over the business side of things.  So perhaps not against his express wishes, but not really his own idea.

I suspect it's also backed up by a feeling that he wouldn't have re-used material from a work if he was intending to publish the earlier work.

Yes to your first paragraph. But there is a vast gulf between "his brother recommended it" and "he opposed it."

Your second paragraph, maybe, but Beethoven did occasionally re-use melodies elsewhere, and the question is whether he supported publication in 1805, not whether he intended publication in 1800.

The performer's specific claims were "published against the composer's wish" which is speculation and "well before the Sonata Op.2 No.1 in F minor" which is flat-out false whether she meant composed or published. Could she have confused op. 49 with WoO 47?

I just hope her claim does not end up being repeated and eventually accepted as historical fact. I'd have expected you to be on board with this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 10:23:23 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:45:24 PM
Nice list! In a similar vein for me is Ivan Moravec.

Of course there were a bunch of different reasons for those artists' incompleteness, some more unfortunate than others. Brian did a nice interview with Crawford (link (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm)) where she shares her thoughts on (among many other things) completeness, basically an issue of priority.

Pat B.--Thanks for the link to the Penelope Crawford interview.  I found her thoughts interesting.  As for her playing, I especially like the way she doesn't overly pound on the keys when playing Beethoven, or over generalize the emotional content the music.  Clearly Beethoven cared about his piano touch; all those broken pianos only came when he could no longer hear well, and was forced to pound on the keys in order to hear the notes. It helps that Crawford spent many years playing the harpsichord, as her beautiful sounding 1835 Graf piano never sounds unwieldy or overly resonant.  Pianists interested in playing Beethoven should hear her recordings; especially Evgeny Kissin, who is one of the worst culprits I've heard for overly pounding on the keys in Beethoven. Kissin should also read the interview with Crawford too, and reconsider how he approaches Beethoven on a modern grand.  Or, better yet, he should try to play Beethoven's music on an antique piano himself, in order to better understand what Crawford has learned about the scores in relation to the pianos of Beethoven's day.  (Yes, I was frustrated by Kissin's recent DG release, & wish I hadn't bought it.) 

The other pianist that approaches Beethoven's late piano sonatas with a more Baroque-like touch and sensibility is Igor Levit (on a modern piano), who I also like.  I suspect we'll get all 32 from Levit at some point.

As for other fine American born female pianists--apart from Crawford & those already mentioned--the Connoisseur Society label was supportive of a number of the fine American female pianists, but sadly the label has gone out of business.  I most enjoyed Elizabeth Rich's excellent survey of Mozart Piano Sonatas on Connoisseur (and her Haydn & Brahms too); along with Cynthia Raim's Schumann & Brahms, and Zaidee Parkinson's Debussy Preludes.

I've also enjoyed the piano playing of American born pianists Barbara Nissman, Constance Keene, Rosalyn Tureck, Hephzibah Menuhin (in chamber music), and Lydia Artymiw over the years.  (And historically, there was Amy Fay, who studied with Liszt.)

I'm a fan of Ivan Moravec too.  But I think of him more for his wonderful Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Janacek, Debussy, Haydn and Mozart.  I'll have to dig out his Beethoven tonight and give it a listen.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 04, 2018, 10:30:49 AM
Quote from: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 10:23:23 AM
As for other fine American born female pianists--apart from Crawford & those already mentioned--the Connoisseur Society label was supportive of a number of the fine American female pianists, but sadly the label has gone out of business.  I most enjoyed Elizabeth Rich's excellent survey of Mozart Piano Sonatas on Connoisseur (and her Haydn & Brahms too); along with Cynthia Raim's Schumann & Brahms, and Zaidee Parkinson's Debussy Preludes.

I've also enjoyed the piano playing of American born pianists Barbara Nissman, Constance Keene, Rosalyn Tureck, Hephzibah Menuhin (in chamber music), and Lydia Artymiw over the years.  (And historically, there was Amy Fay, who studied with Liszt.)

I'm a fan of Ivan Moravec too.  But I think of him more for his wonderful Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Janacek, Debussy, Haydn and Mozart.  I'll have to dig out his Beethoven tonight and give it a listen.



Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 06:25:53 AM

Claire Huangci is an outstanding pianist, but she's not famous yet.  (Hopefully she gets there.)  Other living pianists of note, depending on outlook, include Ursula Oppens, Simone Dinnerstein, Anne-Marie McDermott, and Orli Shaham.  Ruth Laredo was quite good and reasonably famous.  But there should definitely be more and they don't seem to achieve the same type of fame as some male pianists.
Thanks for the names. Lots to investigate there!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on January 04, 2018, 10:56:52 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 04, 2018, 08:24:36 AM
I misspelled "op. 111."

Aha. ;)

Well, I'm glad I have the 'budget' EMI/Warner Kovacevich box... but now you've made me curious about the 'skipped' op. 111 (recorded in November 1991, issued in July 1992).
Oh dear.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 11:00:54 AM
Mc ukrneal--My pleasure.

Speaking of female pianists, I've heard very few pianists play Late Beethoven on the same extraordinary level as French pianist Youra Guller:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tftJwS9Z6bQ

[asin] B000TLWGFW[/asin]

Here are links to recordings by my other favorite Beethoven pianists that unfortunately never recorded all 32 Piano Sonatas:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Opp-27-32/dp/B000002S4V/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515097530&sr=1-2&keywords=solomon+beethoven (these have also been reissued on Testament, and may sound better there, I'm not sure.)

[asin]B000001G79[/asin] (Gilels was especially good in the 'Waldstein' Sonata.)

https://www.amazon.com/Gilels-Klaviersonaten-Eloquence-Other-Instrum/dp/B0173V7E4S/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515097228&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=gilels+eloquence+beethoven (I prefer the AMSI remasters to the original DG releases, but the program isn't the same as above--only Gilels' Waldstein is on both CDs).

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8029407--emil-gilels-plays-beethoven (Gilels' Beethoven was often better live, as was the case with this wonderful 1980 recital.)

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Pathetique-Moonlight-Ludwig-van/dp/B000001G4E/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515097453&sr=1-1&keywords=gilels+pathetique (though I slightly prefer Gilels' live 1960s Carnegie Hall account of the 'Moonlight' Sonata.)

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8048996--beethoven-piano-sonatas-nos-27-28-30-31

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7950776--emil-gilels-beethoven-sonatas (the incomplete Gilels cycle gathered together in a box set.)

[asin]B000002A8G[/asin](Surprisingly, Serkin rejected these recordings, but his performances of Nos. 30 & 31 here are among my all-time favorites of these sonatas.)

https://www.amazon.com/Rudolf-Beethoven-Sonatas-Variations-Masters/dp/B008CG1HPQ/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515097094&sr=1-5&keywords=serkin+beethoven+sony (Serkin's Pathetique Sonata is one of the finest I've heard.)

https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Recital-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B000005J02/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515097025&sr=1-7&keywords=horszowski+beethoven (even though Horszowski was very old when he made his two Nonesuch Beethoven recordings, & certain allowances must be made, I've never heard a pianist get the spirit these early sonatas quite like Horszowski does.)

https://www.amazon.com/Mieczyslaw-Horszowski-Ludwig-van-Beethoven/dp/B000005IYG/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515097025&sr=1-9&keywords=horszowski+beethoven

http://arbiterrecords.org/catalog/horszowski-plays-beethoven-four-piano-sonatas/

https://www.amazon.com/Richter-Leipzig-Beethoven-Sonatas-November/dp/B00004R8WM/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096980&sr=1-1&keywords=richter+beethoven+leipzig

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Last-Three-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B000006BB6/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096956&sr=1-1&keywords=richter+beethoven+last

https://www.amazon.com/Sviatoslav-Richter-II-Beethoven-Pianists/dp/B00000I0LK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096925&sr=1-3&keywords=richter+great+pianists (regrettably, this 2 CD set is pricey at the moment, but it's well worth searching out.)

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Hammerklavier-Ludwig-van-BEETHOVEN/dp/B00IDC27JY/ref=sr_1_sc_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096873&sr=1-2-spell&keywords=richter+hammerclavier

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sonatas-Nos-27-29-Sviatoslav-Richter/dp/B008MZGK8G/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096823&sr=1-2&keywords=richter+praga+beethoven+sacd

https://www.amazon.com/Steinway-Legends-Arturo-Benedetti-Michelangeli/dp/B000HEZBUS/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096645&sr=1-1&keywords=Michelangeli+beethoven+steinway

https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Sonatas-11-12-Sonata/dp/B00000G506/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096674&sr=1-7&keywords=Michelangeli+beethoven+music+and+arts

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MXPN2DB/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-18-23/dp/B0000034R8/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096593&sr=1-3&keywords=gelber+beethoven  (Unfortunately, Gelber never finished his digital Denon cycle, but this CD is a good place to start. The other Gelber Denon recordings are worth hearing too--as well as his earlier EMI Beethoven (if you can find it), which is arguably even better.  Gelber was Marguerite Long's last pupil, and she predicted that he would be her finest.)

I can find Glenn Gould erratic in Beethoven, but he's very interesting in the three Op. 31 Sonatas, and some of the early sonatas too:

https://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-plays-Beethoven-Sonatas/dp/B0085MK2O4/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096559&sr=1-2&keywords=Glenn+gould+beethoven

Clara Haskil was also excellent in the Op. 31 Sonatas Nos. 2 & 3.

Finally, as mentioned above, most recently, I've enjoyed Igor Levit's survey of the Late Sonatas 28-32:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Late-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B00BX8687C/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096490&sr=1-1&keywords=Igor+Levit+beethoven

Along with Penelope Crawford on her beautiful sounding 1835 Graf piano:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethovens-Piano-Sonatas-Penelope-Crawford/dp/B004GV76PQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515096179&sr=1-1&keywords=penelope+crawford+beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2018, 11:57:36 AM
Of the earlier Gelber there are opp.28, 27/1 and 81a on an EMI Rarissimes twofer and op.27/2 and 13 fillers to the Emperor Concerto. The EMI Appassionata apparently never on CD internationally. I don't know if he recorded more than these six for EMI. I highly recommended the Rarissimes and the Denon recordings some time ago but they do not seem to be very well known, maybe because the Denon was never completed and some really important works (like opp.106,109,110) missing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 04, 2018, 12:51:39 PM
Quote from: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 10:23:23 AM
I'm a fan of Ivan Moravec too.  But I think of him more for his wonderful Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Janacek, Debussy, Haydn and Mozart.  I'll have to dig out his Beethoven tonight and give it a listen.

Although I was a bit underwhelmed by his Appassionata, I otherwise find his Beethoven to be superb.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 04, 2018, 12:53:16 PM
Quote from: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 11:00:54 AM
[asin]B000002A8G[/asin](Surprisingly, Serkin rejected these recordings, but his performances of Nos. 30 & 31 here are among my all-time favorites of these sonatas.)

https://www.amazon.com/Rudolf-Beethoven-Sonatas-Variations-Masters/dp/B008CG1HPQ/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1515097094&sr=1-5&keywords=serkin+beethoven+sony (Serkin's Pathetique Sonata is one of the finest I've heard.)


Yes, that Op. 110 is as good as it gets.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 01:47:15 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 04, 2018, 11:57:36 AM
Of the earlier Gelber there are opp.28, 27/1 and 81a on an EMI Rarissimes twofer and op.27/1 and 13 fillers to the Emperor Concerto. The EMI Appassionata apparently never on CD internationally. I don't know if he recorded more than these six for EMI. I highly recommended the Rarissimes and the Denon recordings some time ago but they do not seem to be very well known, maybe because the Denon was never completed and some really important works (like opp.106,109,110) missing.

I only know Gelber's EMI LP recordings of Beethoven's "Moonlight" Op. 27/2, "Appassionata" Op. 57, and "Pathetique" Op. 13 (& the two concertos)--so yes, I guess that makes 6 sonatas in total for EMI:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bYAxBA35L.jpg)

I don't own the EMI Rarissimes issue.  So, onto my wish list it goes.  I think Gelber's technique was more jaw-dropping earlier on, during his EMI years.  Of course it was perfectly fine on his later Denon recordings too.  But, as I recall, the reason Gelber didn't finish his Denon cycle was due to health reasons. A pity.

Gelber also recorded the Eroica Variations & 32 Variations for Orfeo, but here I prefer Emil Gilels' Eroica Variations from his wonderful live 1980 recital on Hanssler, and again Gilels for the 32 Variations on EMI & live from Carnegie Hall in the 1960s:

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ICQUEu5XL._SS500.jpg)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Emil-Gilels-plays-Beethoven-Historical/dp/B00BW108PI/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_4?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1515105487&sr=1-4-fkmr1&keywords=gilels+hanssler+beethoven

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B013UEX2LQ/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqvbf8jh-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZAkCohFDSE

George--I'm pleased someone else out there rates Serkin's 'unreleased' Op. 110 as highly as I do.  Youra Guller's Op. 109 & 110 are in the same class too, IMO.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on January 04, 2018, 04:14:47 PM
Quote from: Pat B on January 04, 2018, 09:30:20 AM
Yes to your first paragraph. But there is a vast gulf between "his brother recommended it" and "he opposed it."

Your second paragraph, maybe, but Beethoven did occasionally re-use melodies elsewhere, and the question is whether he supported publication in 1805, not whether he intended publication in 1800.

The performer's specific claims were "published against the composer's wish" which is speculation and "well before the Sonata Op.2 No.1 in F minor" which is flat-out false whether she meant composed or published. Could she have confused op. 49 with WoO 47?

I just hope her claim does not end up being repeated and eventually accepted as historical fact. I'd have expected you to be on board with this.

If that's what she said about the date, then yes it's simply wrong.

But the question of publication of op.49 isn't unique to that pianist, which is why I even bothered talking about it. Either that, or she's already infected Wikipedia...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on January 04, 2018, 06:54:06 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 04, 2018, 04:14:47 PM
If that's what she said about the date, then yes it's simply wrong.

But the question of publication of op.49 isn't unique to that pianist, which is why I even bothered talking about it. Either that, or she's already infected Wikipedia...

As it turns out, the relevant line in the wikipedia article — from an anonymous contributor and lacking a citation — is from April 2007, several years before her recording. I wouldn't be shocked if wikipedia was her source.

IIRC the surviving correspondence does indicate some tension between Beethoven and his brother but does not include anything one way or the other about op. 49. Until that changes, it's a mystery.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: zamyrabyrd on January 04, 2018, 09:31:44 PM
Quote from: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 10:23:23 AM
Pat B.--Thanks for the link to the Penelope Crawford interview!  I found her thoughts interesting.  As for her playing, I especially like the way she doesn't pound on the keys mercilessly when playing Beethoven, and hence relentlessly over generalize the emotional content the music.

Clearly Beethoven cared about his piano touch more than that! (i.e., more than many pianists playing modern grands seem to realize today); all those broken pianos only came when he could no longer hear well, and was forced to pound heavily on the keys in order to hear the notes. I think it helps that Crawford spent so many years playing the harpsichord, as her touch on the beautiful sounding 1835 Graf piano is near ideal for late Beethoven.  All pianists interested in playing Beethoven should hear those recordings!; especially Evgeny Kissin, who is one of the worst culprits I've heard for unnecessarily pounding on the keys in Beethoven (etc.).

Thanks for recognizing the problem of pounding the piano keys, which is not a hindrance for those competing in major or lesser competitions - the louder and faster, the better! I have been fighting this battle for years in schools and can't get over how listening has become so coarse so as not to hear brittle and ugly sounds coming from the keyboard. Doing a lot of singing has made me more aware of the importance of tone but even as a kid I had what was called a "soft touch".

Myra Hess was noted for her interpretations of late Beethoven Sonatas, another pianist who thankfully didn't bang. One can only compare her Schumann Concerto with Argerich, which really offends my ears. I have mixed feelings about her Beethoven, though. As much as she is sensitive to nuance, and her "Appassionata" is exciting, I feel there is not enough structural grasp of the material.

Janet (former Philadelphian)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2018, 11:19:24 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 09:14:01 AM

What's your total count?  Forster and Costa appear to be missing, though I spotted Tamami Honma's forthcoming cycle, so that's a seventeenth complete cycle from a woman, nineteenth all-in.  She boosts Japan's lead, though given that she has been in the US for a while, I guess she could alternatively be counted as an American.

There are several cycles I have some information of, but not yet included. Such as the "Russian Collective Cycle" on Bomba Piter / Audiophile Classics, or self-published efforts like those of Sequeira Costa, Claudio Colombo, and the Sebastián Forster that you unearthed.

Here are some more names that have not finished their cycles or have cycles that I have not included yet or am missing artwork for... it's an ongoing process.


Yusuke   Kikuchi
   
   
Akira   Wakabayashi
   
   
Akihiro   Sakiya
   
Mordecai   Shehori
Daniela   Varinska
Martin   Roscoe
Irina   Mejoueva
   
Christian   Leotta
Yaeko   Yamane
James   Brawn
Per   Tengstrand
   
Rita   Bouboulidi
Elena /  Eugène   Kolesnitschenko / Mursky
   
Yoshihiro   Kondo
Yu   Kasuge
Bruno-Leonard   Gelber
   
Giovanni   Belluci
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2018, 06:00:16 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2018, 11:19:24 PM...Claudio Colombo...


If you mention Colombo, it should be to steer people away.  It's not actual piano playing, it's MIDI.

To the others, below is how I would group them as of today.  Hopefully, Kondo's status changes. 

Complete
Steven Masi (needs to be added to your list; Albany Records)
Irina Mejoueva
Yusuke Kikuchi
Christian Leotta
Yaeko Yamane
Rita Bouboulidi
Yu Kasuge (I assume this is Yu Kosuge)
Daniela Varinska (don't own; no info)


Complete, but not sure if legit
Giancarlo Andretti
Alicja Kot


In-Progress
Akihiro Sakiya
Martin Roscoe
James Brawn


Incomplete/No Cycle
Yoshihiro Kondo - either incomplete, one volume OOP, or final volume to be released in the future
Giovanni Belluci - one three disc volume that has been around for years; may or may not be completed
Bruno-Leonard Gelber - partial, will almost certainly never be a complete cycle
Akira Wakabayashi - no cycle, just famous sonata recordings as far as I know
Mordecai Shehori - no cycle, just famous sonata and concerto recordings as far as I know
Per Tengstrand - appears to be a dead cycle; the same discs have been recycled for years


No info
Elena/Eugène Kolesnitschenko/Mursky
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 05, 2018, 06:08:35 AM
Speaking of ongoing cycles, Brawn Vol. 5 just arrived in October

(http://www.msrcd.com/cdcovers/cd590.jpg)

and, since Brawn is taking his time, Vol. 6 will be recorded this August.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2018, 06:11:49 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 05, 2018, 06:08:35 AMand, since Brawn is taking his time, Vol. 6 will be recorded this August.


I'd be willing to bet on a 2020 completion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 05, 2018, 06:21:48 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 06:11:49 AM

I'd be willing to bet on a 2020 completion.
Well, granted we don't know what Vol. 6 will contain, but now that 5 is done, he still has to record:

No. 4 / Op. 7
No. 11 / Op. 22
No. 12 / Op. 26
No. 13 / Op. 27/1
No. 16 / Op. 31/1
No. 18 / Op. 31/3
No. 22 / Op. 54
Nos. 28-32 / saving best for last?

I only nerd out over this because I really do like the Brawn cycle-in-progress a lot.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 05, 2018, 06:45:22 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 06:00:16 AM
In-Progress
Akihiro Sakiya
Martin Roscoe
James Brawn

Also Jonathan Biss.  I really like his playing (and commentary).  He's got six CDs done.  I am looking forward to the rest of his cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2018, 07:14:39 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 05, 2018, 06:45:22 AM
Also Jonathan Biss.  I really like his playing (and commentary).  He's got six CDs done.  I am looking forward to the rest of his cycle.


I was only including the pianists Jens listed.  In addition to the three he mentioned and Biss, there is also Letizia Michielon, Angela Hewitt, Maurizio Paciariello, Igor Tchetuev, and Kazune Shimizu's second go-round.  I already knew about these.

A quick scan of Amazon US yielded these additional on-going cycles: Llŷr Williams, Shisei Hanai, John Kane, and Maurizio Zaccaria (maybe, I'm not sure, but the sonata selection in his first release smacks of complete cycle).  The only name I know from this group is Williams, and he is supposedly up to volume seven.

I know there are other ongoing cycles I did not list.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 05, 2018, 07:18:03 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 07:14:39 AM

I was only including the pianists Jens listed.  In addition to the three he mentioned and Biss, there is also Letizia Michielon, Angela Hewitt, Maurizio Paciariello, Igor Tchetuev, and Kazune Shimizu's second go-round.  I already knew about these.

A quick scan of Amazon US yielded these additional on-going cycles: Llŷr Williams, Shisei Hanai, John Kane, and Maurizio Zaccaria (maybe, I'm not sure, but the sonata selection in his first release smacks of complete cycle).  The only name I know from this group is Williams, and he is supposedly up to volume seven.

I know there are other ongoing cycles I did not list.

What about Steven Masi? Even if you only ranked him to fourth tier, you omitted him from your survey of complete cycles. Or do my bad sight elude me once more?


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2018, 07:19:52 AM
Also, two more complete cycles apparently dropped last year: Giancarlo Andretti and Alicja Kot.  Andretti is on Spotify.

The problem I have with these two is that I don't know if they are legit.  Both pianists have multiple recordings of core rep.  I don't know if they are real, if it's a Claudio Colombo type thing, or if it's a Joyce Hatto type thing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2018, 07:21:44 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 05, 2018, 07:18:03 AM
What about Steven Masi? Even if you only ranked him to fourth tier, you omitted him from your survey of complete cycles. Or do my bad sight elude me once more?


I believe you are correct.  It's all too easy to forget fourth tier cycles.  At least the really bad cycles are memorable for being really bad.  I'll update my list.  That means Germany and the US are tied for first place.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 05, 2018, 07:34:39 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 07:21:44 AM

I believe you are correct.  It's all too easy to forget fourth tier cycles.  At least the really bad cycles are memorable for being really bad.  I'll update my list.  That means Germany and the US are tied for first place.

And what about Kempff's prewar incomplete cycle? When you include Gieseking's EMI incomplete cycle, you may equally well include Kempff's prewar cycle.

Kempff's prewar cycle comprises 24 sonatas.
Gieseking's EMI cycle comprises 27 sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2018, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 05, 2018, 07:34:39 AM
And what about Kempff's prewar incomplete cycle? When you include Gieseking's EMI incomplete cycle, you may equally well include Kempff's prewar cycle.

Kempff's prewar cycle comprises 24 sonatas.
Gieseking's EMI cycle comprises 27 sonatas.


25 is my cutoff.

Regarding the new four disc set of wartime recordings from Kempff, I face a pseudo-dilemma: I can simply stream the set.  For recordings that old, streaming is entirely acceptable, but there's the risk the set is removed.  I'm only 99.75% sure I will buy it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 05, 2018, 08:18:24 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 06:00:16 AM

If you mention Colombo, it should be to steer people away.  It's not actual piano playing, it's MIDI.

I thought I had written some warning 'reviews' on Amazon about these semi-fraudulent things... but I couldn't find them now.

Quote

To the others, below is how I would group them as of today.  Hopefully, Kondo's status changes. 

Complete
Steven Masi (needs to be added to your list; Albany Records)

Thanks for that!!! Will add. Am also adding the new re-release of Jean Muller's Bella Music / Naxos Luxenbourg cycle on cheapo-Membran)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 05, 2018, 08:39:10 AM
Albany sent a Steven Masi box to me c/o my newspaper, apparently unaware that my job for them is writing about restaurants. Happy to have it, but initial impression was of a cheap package and a Serious performer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on January 05, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
Wonder what happened to the Igor Tchetuev cycle. I really liked the first 6 volumes on Caro Mitis. I assume the label folded but too bad the cycle could not be completed......
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 05, 2018, 10:22:03 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 07:55:13 AM

25 is my cutoff.

Regarding the new four disc set of wartime recordings from Kempff, I face a pseudo-dilemma: I can simply stream the set.  For recordings that old, streaming is entirely acceptable, but there's the risk the set is removed.  I'm only 99.75% sure I will buy it.

My Gieseking EMI count was wrong, I have revisited the recordings.

Gieseking's set includes 23 sonatas, the ones which are missing are ns:

16, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 and 32.

Kempff's pre-war/wartime set includes 24 sonatas, the ones which are missing are ns:

1, 3, 16, 17, 19, 20, 22 and 25.

So Giesekings set is missing a greater amount of "weighty" sonatas.





Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 05, 2018, 03:52:46 PM
Intrigued by the Llŷr Williams Beethoven sonatas available for download, I looked around a bit because I could not find volume six.  Turns out a 12-CD box set will be released on Signum in March. (https://crosseyedpianist.com/2017/12/07/llyr-williams-to-release-12-cd-box-set-of-beethovens-piano-music/)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2018, 05:07:38 AM
I just had to know, so I did some more looking into incomplete and mystery cycles, and I found one complete set, and three that I would describe as fakes.

First, the new set.  Pianist John Kane appears to have recorded the complete cycle in 2016-2017 at home as part of his extensive Homemade series.  He has recorded a lot of core rep, and he has a YouTube channel, to which he uploaded his Mozart cycle.  He was a student of John Browning, but he is an amateur pianist.  He has his own website: http://www.mykeynoterecords.com/

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71TqVZ6QkOL._SX425_.jpg)


As to fakes, newly found Vladimir Morrone, along with previously mentioned Giancarlo Andretti and Alicja Kot, all appear to be Claudio Colombo type sets.  For "Morrone" and "Kot", I did some listening via Spotify and Amazon.  The "Morrone" is dreadful in every way.  The "Kot" appears to have had more effort put into it, at least in some movements.  Whoever put the set together botched the last movement of Op 111.  I was unable to find the "Andretti" Beethoven for streaming, but I did find the Mozart, and it just ain't right.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 06, 2018, 05:47:25 AM
Updated w/Jumppy!

Going the Full Ludwig: Beethoven Sonata Cycle Survey (Part 8, 2010 - 2013) finally updated with @PianistPaavali's set on @OndineRecords:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html ... (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DS3YbiTXcAADaXb.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 06, 2018, 06:37:03 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2018, 05:07:38 AM
I just had to know, so I did some more looking into incomplete and mystery cycles, and I found one complete set, and three that I would describe as fakes.

First, the new set.  Pianist John Kane appears to have recorded the complete cycle in 2016-2017 at home as part of his extensive Homemade series.  He has recorded a lot of core rep, and he has a YouTube channel, to which he uploaded his Mozart cycle.  He was a student of John Browning, but he is an amateur pianist.  He has his own website: http://www.mykeynoterecords.com/

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71TqVZ6QkOL._SX425_.jpg)

Did you listen to samples of his Op. 2/1? Gotta be the fastest tempo I have heard.

http://www.mykeynoterecords.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/hm2201s.mp3
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2018, 06:44:31 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 03:52:46 PM
Intrigued by the Llŷr Williams Beethoven sonatas available for download, I looked around a bit because I could not find volume six.  Turns out a 12-CD box set will be released on Signum in March. (https://crosseyedpianist.com/2017/12/07/llyr-williams-to-release-12-cd-box-set-of-beethovens-piano-music/)
Never heard this name before but Judith Sherman is a good sign.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2018, 06:50:31 AM
Quote from: George on January 06, 2018, 06:37:03 AM
Did you listen to samples of his Op. 2/1? Gotta be the fastest tempo I have heard.

http://www.mykeynoterecords.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/hm2201s.mp3


I've not listened to anything from his LvB yet, though I sampled his Mozart and Chopin.  I'm mulling over whether I should buy the cycle.


Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2018, 06:44:31 AM
Never heard this name before but Judith Sherman is a good sign.


So is being on Signum. 

I've seen a couple of his discs, and he was in town last April.  I opted not to attend his recital.  I hope he doesn't end up being like Igor Kamenz, where I seriously erred by not hearing him live when I had the chance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2018, 07:08:24 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2018, 05:07:38 AM
The "Morrone" is dreadful in every way. 

I couldn't resist trying op 111/ii. I'm afraid to say that for once you're right.

Is it my imagination or did you leave Glenn Gould out of your big list of cycles? Maybe it was a Freudian slip.

I'm not sure that Colombo isn't a real pianist. I mean I believe he does play a piano because I met someone who said they saw him, but maybe to piano folks it's just obvious that it's been programmed. Here are some of his live recordings

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 07, 2018, 07:22:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2018, 07:08:24 AM
Is it my imagination or did you leave Glenn Gould out of your big list of cycles? Maybe it was a Freudian slip.


He didn't record a cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 07, 2018, 07:44:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2018, 07:08:24 AM
for once you're right.
*raises eyebrow*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2018, 11:35:23 AM
New updates to the Beethoven Sonata Survey:


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 7, 2006 - 2009 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)

Jean Muller re-issued on Membran


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Ronald Brautigam's BIS Cycle (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Ronald Brautigam's hyper-complete cycle of the complete works for solo piano finished (on individ. volumes)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 3, 1977 - 1989 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_29.html)

Eduardo del Pueyo's cycle on Pavane added, at last.


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 8, 2010 - 2013 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

SebastiAn Forster's cycle added.


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 5, 1996 - 1999 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_11.html)

Yaeko Yamane added.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 04:15:42 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 05:57:24 AM
I extracted a quick subset of women pianists who have completed the cycle, and added ongoing ones. ... No women from either the US or Germany and Austria have recorded a complete cycle, nor has a woman from France, the UK, or most other European countries.  Curious.





Country   
Pianist
  Complete  Copy
Russia   
Daniela Varinska
 
Y
 
N

A small correction, if I may (since it's usually the other way 'round [and much appreciated in every case!]): Danila Varinska is, I believe, Slovakian.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 04:34:30 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 06:25:53 AM

Claire Huangci is an outstanding pianist, but she's not famous yet.  (Hopefully she gets there.)  Other living pianists of note, depending on outlook, include Ursula Oppens, Simone Dinnerstein, Anne-Marie McDermott, and Orli Shaham.  Ruth Laredo was quite good and reasonably famous.  But there should definitely be more and they don't seem to achieve the same type of fame as some male pianists.

Really like Huangci's playing. The new disc is terrific, too... and the fillers (depending on your POV) are as good!
I might have named Ruth Laredo first; she was the grande dame of american pianism for quite a while. (And is really in a different league altogether than Simone Dinnersteen...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 04:42:52 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 09:14:01 AM

What's your total count?  Forster and Costa appear to be missing, though I spotted Tamami Honma's forthcoming cycle, so that's a seventeenth complete cycle from a woman, nineteenth all-in.  She boosts Japan's lead, though given that she has been in the US for a while, I guess she could alternatively be counted as an American.

Forster's been added; I'm still collecting information on Costa (recording dates).

On my internal list I've got 105 sets, but my cut-off is at two missing sonatas; I think you are more liberal there. (I've got Gieseking & Gilels, for example, listed among "great incomplete cycles" and they don't count towards those 105. Also not counted are Costa (106, if not chronologically), John Kane, Llyr Williams, Irina Mejoueva (I have some of her recordings' info but not all yet.)

Kosuge is also missing; gathering info on her cycle. I notice her set was just released complete as a SACD-only cycle. (Very cool website/project: http://www.beethoven-mo-de.com/module/interface3.html?file=so.json)

Then there's the Russian collaborative cyle, the Kolesnitschenko / Mursky cycle on Telos... which makes it 113 that I'm at least aware of.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 05:15:33 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 05, 2018, 06:00:16 AM
No info
Elena/Eugène Kolesnitschenko/Mursky

I've found all 12 volumes, between "Naxos Direkt" & JPC (on either it's sufficient to search for "Telos", "Beethoven" and "Klaviersonaten" and some on Amazon...
It involves more artists than just the two above, namely also: Gajane Saakjana, Evgenia Rubinova, Jan Jiracek v. Arnim, Alexandra Neumann, Natasha Vlassenko and Boris Giltburg (!).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 08, 2018, 06:05:25 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 04:42:52 AM
Then there's the Russian collaborative cyle, the Kolesnitschenko / Mursky cycle on Telos... which makes it 113 that I'm at least aware of.

Just to be sure, what do you consider "The Russian Collective cycle"?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 08, 2018, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 08, 2018, 06:05:25 AM
Just to be sure, what do you consider "The Russian Collective cycle"?
He just posted more info about it in the post immediately before yours.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 08, 2018, 06:37:14 AM
He just posted more info about it in the post immediately before yours.  :)

Actually, I don't think I did. (Did I?) The Telos cycle is still different from that. That's referring to a cycle on Bomba Piter / Audiophile Classics   with these pianists:
Pavel Egorov, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Vladimir Shakin, Galina Sandovskaya, Dmitri Efimov, Igor Lebedev, Lebedev Roman, Tatyana Zagorovskaya, Leonid Zaychik,
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 08, 2018, 09:27:01 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 08:46:29 AM
Actually, I don't think I did. (Did I?) The Telos cycle is still different from that. That's referring to a cycle on Bomba Piter / Audiophile Classics   with these pianists:
Pavel Egorov, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Vladimir Shakin, Galina Sandovskaya, Dmitri Efimov, Igor Lebedev, Lebedev Roman, Tatyana Zagorovskaya, Leonid Zaychik,
Oh dear, I'm sorry. I thought that comma was indicating that they are the same, rather than a list of 2 things. My misunderstanding. Everyone is still Russian after all!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 08, 2018, 11:23:40 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 08:46:29 AM
Actually, I don't think I did. (Did I?) The Telos cycle is still different from that. That's referring to a cycle on Bomba Piter / Audiophile Classics   with these pianists:
Pavel Egorov, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Vladimir Shakin, Galina Sandovskaya, Dmitri Efimov, Igor Lebedev, Lebedev Roman, Tatyana Zagorovskaya, Leonid Zaychik,

Yes, I thought that you meant this one, and not the Telos release.

I like these weighty interpretations in the Egorov, Uryvaev et.c. set very much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 12:00:57 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 08, 2018, 11:23:40 AM
Yes, I thought that you meant this one, and not the Telos release.

I like these weighty interpretations in the Egorov, Uryvaev et.c. set very much.

You have that? Could I tap you for info on it re: recording dates ... and cover art?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 12:02:06 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 08, 2018, 09:27:01 AM
Oh dear, I'm sorry. I thought that comma was indicating that they are the same, rather than a list of 2 things. My misunderstanding. Everyone is still Russian after all!

Sloppy orthography. Eats, shoots and leaves, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 08, 2018, 12:33:16 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 12:00:57 PM
You have that? Could I tap you for info on it re: recording dates ... and cover art?

You will find most of the covers here:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/labels/170/browse?size=10&view=large

I do not consider myself able to talk about these covers as being art, and the booklets do not give the name of the "artist".

There is no information of the recording date. Indirectly one can conclude, that it must have been later than 1990, because some of  the pianists activities in the year 1990 are mentioned. Presto writes that the release date was 18.9.2005, It is difficult to remember exactly, but I think I got them a few years earlier (from a dealer in my country).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 12:54:14 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 08, 2018, 12:33:16 PM
You will find most of the covers here:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/labels/170/browse?size=10&view=large

I do not consider myself able to talk about these covers as being art, and the booklets do not give the name of the "artist".

There is no information of the recording date. Indirectly one can conclude, that it must have been later than 1990, because some of  the pianists activities in the year 1990 are mentioned. Presto writes that the release date was 18.9.2005, It is difficult to remember exactly, but I think I got them a few years earlier (from a daler in my country.

Excellent help with the link, thanks! Strange release that doesn't mention recording dates...

Cheers & best,

Jens
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 08, 2018, 01:17:02 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 08, 2018, 11:23:40 AM


I like these weighty interpretations in the Egorov, Uryvaev et.c. set very much.

Yes, have you heard Egorov's op 111 here?  I think it's rather good

http://www.russiancdshop.com/music.php?zobraz=details&id=25515&lang=de
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 09, 2018, 02:36:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2018, 01:17:02 PM
Yes, have you heard Egorov's op 111 here?  I think it's rather good

http://www.russiancdshop.com/music.php?zobraz=details&id=25515&lang=de

In the "Russian collective cycle" op. 111 is played by Igor Lebedev. Egorov only plays op. 101.

Pavel Egorov seems to have recorded op. 111 on another CD, which isn't part of this cycle, and which I haven't heard.

BTW he died of cancer 15.8.2017, aged 69. RIP.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 09, 2018, 02:49:17 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 12:54:14 PM
Excellent help with the link, thanks! Strange release that doesn't mention recording dates...

Cheers & best,

Jens

If you want to purchase the set, you can get most of the volumes even cheaper here:

https://www.jpc.de/s/Audiophile?searchtype=label
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 09, 2018, 03:12:50 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2018, 12:54:14 PM
Excellent help with the link, thanks! Strange release that doesn't mention recording dates...

Cheers & best,

Jens

I found the recording dates - not in the booklets - but on the rear side of the cover, saying 1992 / 93.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2018, 04:25:31 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 09, 2018, 03:12:50 AM
I found the recording dates - not in the booklets - but on the rear side of the cover, saying 1992 / 93.

Ta-Daa! Thanks so much!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2018, 11:37:11 AM
Known to some of you, surely, but new to me:

Beethoven Sonata Survey: Akiyoshi Sako  on Camerata (9 volumes)]

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DR2BNTXVL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DFkmJnEvL._SX522_.jpg) (http://amzn.to/2CXS8um)

All recorded live in 2001 (?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2018, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2018, 11:37:11 AM
Known to some of you, surely, but new to me:

Beethoven Sonata Survey: Akiyoshi Sako  on Camerata (9 volumes)]

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DR2BNTXVL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DFkmJnEvL._SX522_.jpg) (http://amzn.to/2CXS8um)

All recorded live in 2001 (?)

I just realized that I had already had that in my survey... but without the Amazon links (I've found all volumes to link to on Amazon.com) and with the wrong dates. So that's corrected right here:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete_21.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on January 10, 2018, 02:03:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2018, 07:08:24 AM

I'm not sure that Colombo isn't a real pianist. I mean I believe he does play a piano because I met someone who said they saw him, but maybe to piano folks it's just obvious that it's been programmed. Here are some of his live recordings

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm

They're "Live" recordings, rather than live recordings.

It's vaguely possible that Colombo occasionally really does play piano, but there's no doubt in my mind at all that a lot of his ridiculously large repertoire is completely fake. I complained to Deezer, Amazon and iTunes on the grounds that such misleading dross should simply not be put anywhere that it can make money.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 10, 2018, 05:21:12 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 10, 2018, 02:03:49 AM
..... but there's no doubt in my mind at all that a lot of his ridiculously large repertoire is completely fake.

Fake? Joyce Hatto once more?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 05:30:11 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 10, 2018, 05:21:12 AM
Fake? Joyce Hatto once more?


No, not Joyce Hatto.  From Colombo's site: "All the tracks performed by Claudio Colombo, on Yamaha digital pianos."  The definition of the word "performed" is a bit plastic here.

Colombo's repertoire, from his website, includes all or the majority of the works of the below composers.  If someone wants to consider Colombo legitimate, he or she is free to do so.

Colombo's repertoire:
Albéniz, Albinoni, Alkan, American Ragtimes, C.P.E. Bach, J.S. Bach, W.F. Bach, Bach-Reger, Bartók, Beethoven, Beethoven-Liszt, Benda, Beyer, Bizet, Borodin, Brahms, Busoni, Chabrier, Chopin, Cimarosa, Clementi, F. Couperin, Cramer, Czerny, Debussy, Duparc, Durante, Dussek, Dvořák, Falla, Fauré, Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, Franck, Frescobaldi, García Lorca, Gershwin, Gesualdo da Venosa, Granados, Grieg, Haendel, Haydn, Hindemith, Ibert, Janáček, Joplin, Kabalevsky, Khachaturian, Kodaly, Liszt, Lyapunov, MacDowell, Martinů, Mascagni, Mendelssohn, Messiaen, Milhaud, Mompou, Moscheles, Moszkowski, Mozart, Mussorgsky, Paradisi, Pescetti, Poulenc, Pozzoli, Prokofiev, Purcell, Rachmaninoff, Rameau, Ravel, Respighi, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rodrigo, Rossini, Saint-Saëns, Satie, D. Scarlatti, Schubert, Schumann, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Smetana, Soler, Stravinsky, Szymanowski, Tchaikovsky, Telemann, Verdi, Villa-Lobos, Vivaldi, Wagner, Weber, Weill, Wieck, Wolf
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 05:54:25 AM
There's a discussion about him on this piano forum


http://www.pianosociety.com/threads/claudio-colombo.1990/page-2

where everyone seems convinced that they're midi performances, and then someone says


QuoteDuring the past weekend I exchanged some emails with Claudio Colombo. I invited him to join the thread but he hedged by pleading his poor English. So, FYI (and with his blessing) I'll shortly report here what he told me about his recording procedures.

The music he records is performed by him, not MIDI-sequenced or, worse, stolen from other pianists (in spite of some of you evoking Setrak). Claudio told me he plays the piece on his digital piano, at a convenient speed (how much he slows down depends on the difficulty of the music, but he is a very good reader and long accustomed with most of the music he decides to record). In case of mistakes he remakes the recording as to the portion of music affected by the error(s). A slightly different procedure is employed when he records duos, since a metronome is needed to synchronize the additional track. He's a piano teacher and the recordings also serve educational purpose for his pupils. That's it.

And later on Claudio makes this contribution to the discussion

QuoteHy everyone.

My self-presentation is not needed, I suppose: I am the subject of this thread.

This is the exact text, word by word, of my e-mail message sent to Alfonso Bertazzi at 23.04 04/01/2008:

***

Ciao Alfonso. Sì, mi ricordo di te. Ricordo che abbiamo dialogato piacevolmente sul ng, ma non rammento il tema della discussione. Ho sempre letto con molto interesse i tuoi post, ma apprendo ora da te che non partecipi più alla vita del gruppo. Io stesso mi sono limitato a un paio di interventi negli ultimi due anni, per il resto leggiucchio rarissimamente, ma proprio non ho tempo.

Ho appena letto la discussione che mi hai segnalato. Interessante. Non è la prima, sui vari forum che si occupano di musica classica: i toni sono sempre gli stessi. E mai nessuno che si decida ad aprire il suo programma di posta per scrivermi e chiedermi "come faccio". Il "come faccio" secondo me per un musicista, o quantomeno un conoscitore della musica non superficiale, dovrebbe essere ovvio. E infatti tu l'hai capito perfettamente. Altri pianisti l'hanno capito, mi hanno scritto per chiedere conferma, e siamo diventati amici, seppure in forma elettronica.

Per essere più precisi: prendo un pezzo, lo leggo a velocità ridotta, lo rileggo a velocità di esecuzione, o quasi (dipende dalla difficoltà). Durante questa fase definisco i criteri d'interpretazione. Quindi registro. A velocità ridotta, certamente. Quanto ridotta dipende sempre dalla difficoltà tecnica (ho una discreta facilità di lettura, e questo aiuta molto, e quasi sempre conosco già da molti anni i pezzi che sto per incidere, anche se non li ho mai studiati in maniera ortodossa, o magari li ho solo fatti studiare ai miei allievi). Per la registrazione uso Sonar. Cerco di buttarmi il più possibile, ma NON correggo gli errori in Sonar. Se il passaggio non è perfetto mi fermo, cancello da dove ci sono problemi, riprovo il passaggio e poi riprendo la registrazione facendo partire il midi da un po' prima, a volte parecchio prima. Non uso Gigastudio se non per le registrazioni con altri strumenti che non siano a tastiera La tecnica, velocità a parte (e non sempre), non è diversa da quella del montaggio audio nelle sale di incisione tradizionali. Recentemente ho visto un filmato di Glenn Gould che registrava Bach cucendo, ricucendo, ripetendo, smontando e rimontando. Il risultato è fantastico, musicalmente parlando. A me non è mai passato per l'anticamera del cervello di smontare la mia lavatrice per vedere come fa, senza mani, a lavare così bene. Mi interessa che il bucato sia pulito.

Il concetto del bucato, trasferito al mio lavoro, è questo: non me ne importa niente delle mie mani (a maggior ragione trovo imbarazzante che se ne preoccupi qualcun altro), di quanto sia considerato bravo o maldestro, leale o disonesto, mi interessa che quella musica venga conosciuta da tanta gente, potenzialmente da tutti. Non il suo esecutore, ma la musica. So per certo che ci sono tantissimi studenti che si servono di alcune mie registrazioni per trarre suggerimenti. I miei stessi allievi sono fra questi (così non mi telefonano a orari impossibili per chiedermi come si realizza un abbellimento, perché se lo erano dimenticato). Ho anche registrato apposta, su richiesta, dei pezzi che dovevano essere eseguiti a breve ad un esame, o a un saggio, e dei quali non c'erano incisioni disponibili (con il maestro in tournée, o al mare...). I partecipanti a quel forum non hanno nemmeno pensato di andare a vedere la mia home page in italiano, quindi non sanno che sono un insegnante. Poco male.

Ti ringrazio molto per la "soffiata", ma credo che non interverrò in quella discussione. Il mio inglese è pessimo, fra l'altro, e non riuscirei a spiegare convenientemente che secondo me un musicista non è un circense, e che un esecutore deve essere al servizio del compositore, e non della propria fama. Peraltro i loro sospetti si basano sugli indizi sbagliati: nelle esecuzioni solistiche ovviamente non uso il metronomo (nei duo e negli ensemble sì, altrimenti sfido chiunque ad andare a tempo con un partner che non si vede; chi ci ha provato, non faccio nomi, ha combinato disastri), quindi se dicono che suono perfettamente a tempo mi fanno un complimento: uno scarto nell'agogica a velocità ridotta si amplifica accelerando. In realtà nelle mie registrazioni gli scarti li sento eccome, e qualche volta sono palesemente eccessivi. La prova che baro sulla velocità si trova facilmente ascoltando la dinamica dei trilli: io ho una grandissima facilità nell'esecuzione degli abbellimenti, ma certe volte sembro una macchina da cucire... neanche ABM poteva tanto, benché spaccasse le noci col mignolo, con nonchalance, per stupire i commensali. C'è una lunga serie di trilli nella parte finale della Grande Fuga op.133 di LvB che sembra l'allarme dell'ascensore del mio condominio. Il rilievo dell'infallibilità tecnica, beh, è ridicolo: chi è che lascia degli errori nelle registrazioni in studio?

Conosci quell'aneddoto raccontato in più di un'occasione da Piero Rattalino... di quella ragazza molto raccomandata che arrivò a incidere un disco, nonostante non fosse proprio un pianista fenomenale. Dopo aver ascoltato il laboriosissimo montaggio della sua registrazione con un tecnico del suono, lei disse: "Bene, no?" E l'altro: "Le piacerebbe saper suonare così, vero signorina?".

Comunque, per concludere, c'è un pianista di cui non ricordo il nome e di cui credevo di avere conservato un link (ma mi sbagliavo) ad un sito approntato da lui, che adopera esattamente il mio sistema. Lo ha dichiarato nel sito spiegando per filo e per segno cosa fa e perché lo fa. Spiega anche che suonare a una velocità diversa da quella definitiva è molto difficile perché bisogna tradurre al volo il significato musicale di quello che si sta eseguendo proiettandolo sull'esecuzione "ufficiale". E' vero che non è facile, richiede una lunga esperienza, ma è certamente più difficile suonare tutto alla velocità giusta. Insomma, non mi sembrava il caso di spiegarlo, sa tanto di excusatio non petita, e comunque lo capiamo in dodici. Peraltro dai demo avevo ricavato una ben modesta impressione (non ha per esempio risolto la grana del timing del pedale di risonanza, e non ha capito che i movimenti dei salti vanno rallentati esattamente come tutto il resto).

Ciao, e ancora grazie.

Claudio

***

I'm kind of hoping someone will translate, I can't read Italian.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 05:55:56 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 05:54:25 AMwhere everyone seems convinced that they're midi performances, and then someone says


Well, that clinches it.

What's that quote attributed to PT Barnum?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 06:01:29 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 05:55:56 AM

Well, that clinches it.


Well I'd still be like to know what's in Claudio's own contribution to the thread before commenting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 06:05:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 05:54:25 AM
I'm kind of hoping someone will translate, I can't read Italian.


You've heard of Google Translate, yes?

Anyway, if you want to believe Claudio Colombo is a legitimate pianist, and if you want to listen to digital pianos, you are certainly free to do so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 10, 2018, 06:47:34 AM
Whatever he writes in Italian, it seems to me, that the artistic merit of the recordings may be rather small.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 10, 2018, 07:10:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 10, 2018, 06:47:34 AM
Whatever he writes in Italian, it seems to me, that the artistic merit of the recordings may be rather small.

Ah, it all comes back to me now. I had come across that before. Recordings made in slow-motion and then sped up to adequate speed... as a tool to help (if that's the right word) his students.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 10, 2018, 07:20:41 AM
I don't have a problem with what he is doing, as long as he makes it plain to everyone (which it seems he has).  And if it is mainly for his students, then I won't make any negative judgment. 

However, the question I ask is why do these recordings appear on streaming services and elsewhere along with legitimate recordings? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 07:44:15 AM
I don't have a problem with it, as long as he makes plain how he does it. If a beautiful performance of a Beethoven Sonata can be created using software, why is that illegitimate? (I have not heard the recording in question and have no idea whether it is any good.) Playing a piano sonata is a combination of athletic and an intellectual tasks. If someone has the musicality to make a great performance but not the fingers, what is wrong with using software?

Of course there is the cult of piano virtuosity, and it would be unfair to traditional performers if he passed his work off as a live performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 07:47:35 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 07:44:15 AMIf a beautiful performance of a Beethoven Sonata can be created using software, why is that illegitimate?


A piano sonata should be performed by a person playing a real piano.  Digital pianos are fine for John Tesh style music. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 10, 2018, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 07:47:35 AM

A piano sonata should be performed by a person playing a real piano.  Digital pianos are fine for John Tesh style music.

And Mercy, Mercy, Mercy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRrFWp4DUho).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 07:49:25 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 10, 2018, 07:20:41 AM

However, the question I ask is why do these recordings appear on streaming services and elsewhere along with legitimate recordings?

Yes I can see where you're coming from. Legitimacy questions aside, people surely should have a way of knowing what sort of thing they're listening to. And in the past the booklet would sometimes make this clear - think of the booklet for Annie Fischer's Beethoven, how that explained her recording procedure. But we've seen the demise of the booklet . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 07:58:26 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 07:47:35 AM

A piano sonata should be performed by a person playing a real piano.  Digital pianos are fine for John Tesh style music.

Not having heard the performances, the question is, 'could they be mistaken for the performance of a live pianist?' If the answer is no, then they are just bad performances. If the answer is yes, then why is it so essential that the performances be produced by a certain type of mechanism (hammers and dampers actuated my mechanical levers controlled by a person's fingers) rather than another (hammers and dampers actuated by solenoids and stepper motors controlled by a person)?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 10, 2018, 08:02:12 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 07:58:26 AM
Not having heard the performances, the question is, 'could they be mistaken for the performance of a live pianist?' If the answer is no, then they are just bad performances. If the answer is yes, then why is it so essential that the performances be produced by a certain type of mechanism (hammers and dampers actuated my mechanical levers controlled by a person's fingers) rather than another (hammers and dampers actuated by solenoids and stepper motors controlled by a person)?

Unless digital technology has dramatically improved there is no way an electronic keyboard would be confused with a Steinway or other recital quality piano.

But I'm not a strict as Todd.  If this guy wants to play Beethoven on a Casio - I don't care.  I could tell right off what it was when I first heard it.  Noël Akchoté, though really chaps my ass.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 08:08:39 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 10, 2018, 08:02:12 AM
Unless digital technology has dramatically improved there is no way an electronic keyboard would be confused with a Steinway or other recital quality piano.

I assume what he used was conventional piano which has been fitted with computer controlled actuators. This is a standard product Yamaha has been making for some time. It is like an extremely refined version of a player piano. The difference is that an old fashioned player piano only specifies when each key is up and down (by means of holes punched in a paper scroll). There is no dynamics. In the electronic version both the timing and force of depressing each key is specified, as well as fine gradations of damper position. You can play something on the piano and it will record it to a computer file any by replaying the file the performance is reproduced precisely. You can also edit the file (to correct mistakes or refine the performance) and you can play a file that was created from scratch.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/disklavier/index.html
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 08:30:22 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 07:58:26 AMIf the answer is yes, then why is it so essential that the performances be produced by a certain type of mechanism (hammers and dampers actuated my mechanical levers controlled by a person's fingers) rather than another (hammers and dampers actuated by solenoids and stepper motors controlled by a person)?


If this is your standard, why not just listen to a computer program control a digital piano?  Indeed, why not go one step further and listen to such a set up in recital?

Anyway, as to Colombo, you can listen right now, for free, at his web site, so no philosophizing is necessary.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 10, 2018, 08:42:04 AM
What about Beethoven cycles that have been performed "into" a piano properly (not like Colombo, who just pokes in the notes at the speed he can manage and then switches the dial to "Allegro") and then replayed them on a reproducing piano? Entremont and Silverman are two such cases - legitimate pianists by all means. Or what about the Zenph studio Gould Goldberg Variations? I tend to be skeptical, sound unheard, on philosophical grounds...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 08:58:56 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 08:30:22 AM

If this is your standard, why not just listen to a computer program control a digital piano?  Indeed, why not go one step further and listen to such a set up in recital?

Why not? If Pollini, or Argerich, or whoever would record a performance on an actuated piano and I could replay that performance on a computer controlled piano in my living room, that would at least as satisfying as listening to an audio recording. Maybe my player piano isn't as good as a real Steinway, but neither are my headphones.

As to a recital, I don't think it would make any more sense than listening to an audio recording in a recital.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 09:15:04 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 10, 2018, 08:42:04 AM
What about Beethoven cycles that have been performed "into" a piano properly . . . and then replayed them on a reproducing piano?
What do you mean?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 09:19:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 09:15:04 AM
What do you mean?

Exactly what I described above. You performed the work on a Yamaha Disklavier, it records the exact time and dynamics of every key you depress (and pedal positions) and then it can reproduce your performance using electronic actuators on the keys.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:21:19 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 08:58:56 AMIf Pollini, or Argerich


Well, you see, it comes down to the artist in these instances.  I was referring to a generic program playing a work, stripped of any fame associated with an actual human artist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 10, 2018, 08:42:04 AM
What about Beethoven cycles that have been performed "into" a piano properly (not like Colombo, who just pokes in the notes at the speed he can manage and then switches the dial to "Allegro") and then replayed them on a reproducing piano? Entremont and Silverman are two such cases - legitimate pianists by all means. Or what about the Zenph studio Gould Goldberg Variations? I tend to be skeptical, sound unheard, on philosophical grounds...


The Silverman cycle is quite excellent, even if John Atkinson did not deliver audiophile quality sound.  The difference here, as you noted, is that Silverman (and Entremont) is a proper pianist, with many recordings, studio and live, and many live performances.  The same can't really be said about Claudio Colombo, Vladimir Morrone, Alicja Kot, and Giancarlo Andretti.  At least Colombo has a website, I guess.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 09:26:47 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:21:19 AM
Well, you see, it comes down to the artist in these instance.  I was referring to a generic program playing a work, stripped of any fame associated with an actual human artist.

I wouldn't be interested in a generic playback of a piano score entered into Sibelius, etc. But, hypothetically, I can imagine an artist who can prepare a Disklavier program the same way Pollini or Argerich prepares a performance, shaping dynamics, rubato, other interpretive touches by hand-editing the file. That would be a different kind of artistry which I don't see as invalid in principal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:33:22 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 09:26:47 AMThat would be a different kind of artistry which I don't see as invalid in principal.


This type of approach is great for electronic music, but not so much for Beethoven or Mozart, and so on.  I don't see it as valid.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:33:22 AM

This type of approach is great for electronic music, but not so much for Beethoven or Mozart, and so on.  I don't see it as valid.

We all have our individual choices as to what is valid and what is not valid. Some here characterize Bach on a modern piano as invalid.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:41:10 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 10, 2018, 09:38:15 AM
We all have our individual choices as to what is valid and what is not valid. Some here characterize Bach on a modern piano as invalid.


Indeed, but there's a difference between an artist playing music on the so-called wrong instrument and an artist not playing at all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 10, 2018, 09:48:34 AM
I've been streaming the Schiff ECM recordings and thinking about buying the box.  Any opinions on his cycle: how he stacks up against some of the other recent sets?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:52:00 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 10, 2018, 09:48:34 AM
I've been streaming the Schiff ECM recordings and thinking about buying the box.  Any opinions on his cycle: how he stacks up against some of the other recent sets?


He's in my fourth tier.  That written, I wouldn't want to be without it.  He produces a sort of fortepiano sonority from modern grands at times, and his insight into some sonatas (eg, 10/3) is worth hearing properly.  There is no other cycle like his; once you hear the whole thing, it will not blend in with half a dozen others, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 10, 2018, 10:12:46 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:52:00 AM

He's in my fourth tier.  That written, I wouldn't want to be without it.  He produces a sort of fortepiano sonority from modern grands at times, and his insight into some sonatas (eg, 10/3) is worth hearing properly.  There is no other cycle like his; once you hear the whole thing, it will not blend in with half a dozen others, that's for sure.

Thanks
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 10, 2018, 12:01:01 PM


Once more going the Full Ludwig: Bomba Piter "St.Petersburg Collective" cycle added to the Beethoven Sonata Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 4, 1990 - 1996. Now containing 106 complete cycles!

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html ...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTNCAOwX0AAlXX8.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTNCAO3W0AEL2py.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 09:03:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2018, 09:26:12 AM

The Silverman cycle is quite excellent, even if John Atkinson did not deliver audiophile quality sound.  The difference here, as you noted, is that Silverman (and Entremont) is a proper pianist, with many recordings, studio and live, and many live performances.  The same can't really be said about Claudio Colombo . . .

I think these are some live recordings by him

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 11, 2018, 02:04:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 09:03:36 PM
I think these are some live recordings by him

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm

And yet, out of habit (?), he suggests that they are "Live" [sic] recordings.  :D

(Actually, he explains the process in the notes and they seem fairly legitimately live, even without quotation marks.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on January 11, 2018, 02:31:31 AM
The thing is, Colombo's "Live" recordings are not remotely anything like the stuff he is peddling all over the rest of the internet.

For one thing, the sound quality of the 1980s live recordings is greatly inferior, as he himself acknowledges on those pages. But one can compare the recordings marked as being from 2008 to the "recordings" you actually get elsewhere, and the difference is obvious. The live ones are not anything special, but they do come across as being played by a human being. This is not the case for most of his stuff.

Try comparing the "live" Chopin op.28/4 prelude with the one from the complete album of preludes.

For op.28/20 (wrongly said to be in D minor), I admit the difference is harder to pick as both are completely mediocre.

The first movement of Mozart's K330 has more uneven touch in the live version. Just.

It's almost all completely God-awful either way, and this is the point where I'm going to stop subjecting myself to this torture. I am firm in my view that this man should not be making a cent from whatever form of mechanically-assisted note-spinning he is inflicting on the world. You can hear better playing from the kids at your local eisteddfod.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 11, 2018, 02:52:06 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 10, 2018, 12:01:01 PM

This cycle was put together shortly after the demise of the Soviet Union, bringing together some of St. Petersburg's finest pianists (as per the label's description of this project). The participating pianists are: Dmitri Efimov, Pavel Egorov, Igor Lebedev, Roman Lebedev, Galina Sandovskaya, Vladimir Shakin, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Tatyana Zagorovskaya, and Leonid Zaychik. The cycle has been re-released on Audiophile Classics. On either label, it's only available on individual volumes: 10 for Bomba Piter, 11 for Audiophile Classics, and on the latter label you can also get Igor Lebedev's Diabelli Variations on a twelfth disc. For lack of a name and single pianist to pin this cycle to, I'll call it the "St. Petersburg Collective" cycle.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTNCAO3W0AEL2py.jpg)[/url]

The Sct. Petersburg cycle on Audiophile Classics makes 10 CDs with sonatas, not 11.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 11, 2018, 05:13:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 09:03:36 PM
I think these are some live recordings by him

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm


That's just super.  I'm sure they will appeal to those who view his recordings of thousands of works on Yamaha digital pianos legitimate and can't get enough of this titan of the piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 11, 2018, 05:14:03 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 11, 2018, 02:31:31 AM


It's almost all completely God-awful either way, and this is the point where I'm going to stop subjecting myself to this torture. I am firm in my view that this man should not be making a cent from whatever form of mechanically-assisted note-spinning he is inflicting on the world. You can hear better playing from the kids at your local eisteddfod.

It's not even about the money; I wouldn't want any poor soul to be subjected to that stuff, thinking it might be "Beethoven" (or Chopin or whatever). He's peddling swill for champagne and giving the latter a bad name.

BEETHOVEN SURVEY NEWS:

(esp. for Todd) Ooi's cycle was fully recorded but never fully released, beyond the four volumes you can at least see (if not find) online! He's since gone on to perform (maybe record? in any case not publish) the other solo keyboard works of Beethoven's and, intriguingly, the 16 string quartets in solo piano version.

The recordings were made at 13 concerts, using 9 different fortepianos.
For the sonatas, they included these: Andreas Stein (replica), Anton Walter (replica by McNulty), Jones&Round (1805, original), Broadwood (1817, original), etc
For symphonies, they included these: Johann Baptist Streicher 1846 (original), Pleyel (original), Erard 1851 (original)

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 11, 2018, 02:52:06 AM
The Sct. Petersburg cycle on Audiophile Classics makes 10 CDs with sonatas, not 11.

You are correct, of course; I had miscounted, including two different versions (ASIN codes) in my "Idea List (http://amzn.to/2DmFFOw)" of the complete sets. Corrected.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 11, 2018, 05:18:50 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 11, 2018, 05:14:03 AMBEETHOVEN SURVEY NEWS:

(esp. for Todd) Ooi's cycle was fully recorded but never fully released, beyond the four volumes you can at least see (if not find) online! He's since gone on to perform (maybe record? in any case not publish) the other solo keyboard works of Beethoven's and, intriguingly, the 16 string quartets in solo piano version.


Good to know, but disappointing in a way.  Hopefully they will be issued as a box sometime between 2020 and 2027.  I'd take it, even if it is HIP.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 11, 2018, 06:45:37 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 01, 2018, 09:59:22 AM
I had a hankering to put together an updated list of all available complete cycles. 
    Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)


This is not mentioned on your ranking list far above. How do you rate it (tier)?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 11, 2018, 06:49:18 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 11, 2018, 06:45:37 AM
This is not mentioned on your ranking list far above. How do you rate it (tier)?


I've not listened to it in its entirety yet.  It will probably take a couple months or so to work through the three cycles I bought at the beginning of the year.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 11, 2018, 09:36:18 AM
More info pertinent to Ooi's activities:

The solo versions of the 16 quartets were played at six concerts in summer 2013 in Kyoto (on an old 1906 NY Steinway).
The arranger was Louis Winkler, more or less, but partly movements by Tausig, Alkan, Saint-Saens, and Rubinstein were substituted.

Examples:
http://ooipiano.exblog.jp/20319824/ (No.1-6)
http://ooipiano.exblog.jp/20456252/ (no.7-12)
http://ooipiano.exblog.jp/20570940/ No.13-16)

You can watch Ooi's performance of the "Grosse Fuge" as arranged by Louis Winkler, on a Broadwood fortepiano from 1816 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gRLbxLr4ik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ialvRFZFEho

The CD with Symphonies No.1 & 2 arranged by Liszt includes the 1st movements of the 1st quartet, played on a Baptist Streicher 1846 instrument.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 24, 2018, 05:09:10 AM
I finally heard back from DG on PBS and Kladetzky.  It's a customer service response, so it may or may not be completely accurate, but at this point I have to conclude there is no PBS Westminster cycle.  Hopefully, the Kladetzky cycle is reissued in a few years, but I won't be surprised if it is not.


1. No unfortunately, there is no Beethoven cycle with Mr. Badura-Skoda released on the Westminster label. But we do have a Westminster label edition with Paul Badura-Skoda recordings: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4792343
There is also a Badura-Skoda edition available:  http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4798065

2. For the Koch-Schwann cycle:
Did you mean this recording https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Works-Piano-Sonatas-Rondo/dp/B000025Q1L ?
Unfortunately, there is no reissue planned in the next time soon. But I will forward it to my colleagues.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2018, 09:34:19 AM
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/0608917721324/0608917721324-cover-zoom.jpg)

Quote from: amw on December 12, 2017, 05:27:01 AM
I actually was disappointed with the Beghin.....

I think it's revelatory in 110 because it's so physical and so playful, boisterously playful. By physical I mean that you're led to focus on the intense percussive sounds and the way the music full of small motifs repeated and varied - that's the focus in Beghin's approach rather than melody etc. I'm starting to think that these two things, physicality and playfulness - are really rewarding ways into late Beethoven generally.

This physicality is similar to what you have in Rite of Spring - Beethoven is Stravinsky avant la lettre.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Alek Hidell on February 10, 2018, 08:18:42 PM
I have one thing to say about this Colombo guy: God, what an awful-looking website he has. ??? Looks like something that would have been considered bad web design even by 1997 standards.

Just based on that, I think I can get a pretty good idea of his artistic integrity ...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 11, 2018, 12:40:48 AM
I've learned -- not quite, but getting there -- to disassociate any sense of aesthetic outside of music (web-design, sleeve art, fonts, clothing et al.) from artistic ability and taste. It's not a very good indicator, strangely. But you are right, an appalling first impression and seeming total disregard of detail doesn't look to be boding well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mahlerian on February 11, 2018, 08:04:58 AM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on February 10, 2018, 08:18:42 PM
I have one thing to say about this Colombo guy: God, what an awful-looking website he has. ??? Looks like something that would have been considered bad web design even by 1997 standards.

Just based on that, I think I can get a pretty good idea of his artistic integrity ...

Eesh, that is ugly all right.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 11, 2018, 08:22:49 AM
It fell off my radar since it's incomplete, at least for now, but Robert Silverman's set of 23 sonatas recorded in 2010 is available as a free MP3 192 Kbps download at AudioHigh (http://www.audiohigh.com/our-destination/wolf-subzero-2/).  They sell CD quality, high res, and MQA downloads as well, and supposedly, if demand is high enough, the remaining nine sonatas will be released later.

(That makes this like Ooi's cycle: a complete cycle incompletely released.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2018, 05:25:37 AM
(http://cms.new-art.nl/content/img/new_products/1508746233.jpg)

Tom Beghin's second recorded op 111, which is one of the more stimulating and inspiring and thought provoking op 111s I know.

He's very good at bringing out the contrapuntal nature of the first few variations. What I mean is that a large part  of the value comes from the way the voices intertwine and respond to each other, at least in the variations before the trills. He's helped because his instrument has a powerful and colourful bass register. You can feel the bass, hear it vibrate and resonate, it's visceral.

In the final trilling variations Beghin makes me feel as though Beethoven's pushing the boundaries of harmony to a sort of limit, that he's taking us to a musical limit. A sense of striving, searching for something new and strange.

In the first movement there's an memorable sense of  incompleteness and undecidedness at the end. throughout  the movement there are lots  of contratsts, contrasts between energy and repose, between extroversion and inwardness, ebb and flow, stop and start
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 22, 2018, 04:48:15 PM
Todd, , how do you rate Martin Roscoe. Yes I know, that his set is not yet complete. The clips, I have heard, sounded very promising.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 22, 2018, 05:21:29 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 22, 2018, 04:48:15 PM
Todd, , how do you rate Martin Roscoe. Yes I know, that his set is not yet complete. The clips, I have heard, sounded very promising.


I have not listened to any of his cycle yet.  His is one of the ongoing cycles where I will wait to buy when/if a complete cycle is released.  Brawn, Cabassi, Sakiya, and Tchetuev are the others.  Ashkar, Hewitt, and Biss I am buying as released.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 28, 2018, 11:33:05 PM
Not that I expect people to be interested, but: some time ago I sought opinions on Eric Heidsieck's Beethoven cycle. This ended up turning into a very desultory and drawn-out comparison of Heidsieck with two other cycles that have been on my radar for some time, Daniel-Ben Pienaar and Michael Korstick. I'm not sure why I picked those three specifically as they don't have a lot in common apart from being slightly weird.

So anyway, the outcome was that I was quite taken with Pienaar's Beethoven style and added his set to my collection; found Heidsieck inconsistent (there was something I really disliked about Op.53 for example.... ) but may pick up his earlier standalone Op.106; already owned Korstick's Op.106 and added his Op.2, 28 and 31 but still not sold on the complete set. Beethoven's piano sonatas have kind of fallen off my radar since, as I was able to get hold of the first ever recorded cycle of Beethoven's string quartets (review probably forthcoming).

Are there any current or forthcoming Beethoven sonatas of interest? The only one I'm following is Olga Pashchenko, who probably isn't doing a cycle per se, but I mean it'd be nice >.>
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on March 02, 2018, 11:44:08 AM
Quote from: amw on February 28, 2018, 11:33:05 PM
Are there any current or forthcoming Beethoven sonatas of interest? The only one I'm following is Olga Pashchenko, who probably isn't doing a cycle per se, but I mean it'd be nice >.>
Agreed, Pashchenko is really good. James Brawn's ongoing cycle is super solid (to me at least). Been a couple years since the last volume, however.

Martin Rasch was sleepy-boring.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 02, 2018, 12:53:15 PM
Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 8, 2010 - 2013
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

It's not that new, but from the last 10 years or so, I like Paavali Jumppanen's cycle a lot.


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 9, 2014 - 2016
http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2014/12/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)

Technically Pollini's cycle (as such) is younger, even.

Zhao's was interesting... or at least better than one had reason to fear.
Bavouzet's is very nice... but perhaps stuck at "nice".
Rasch I can't be bothered to hear; if it is not even good enough for Audite to put it out on their primary label... (although I think their attempt to distance themselves by slapping "Forum" on the name isn't working.)

Ongoing: Jonathan Biss started weakly, I thought, but then got really good, fast -- and now I'm looking forward to more.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 03, 2018, 07:10:30 AM
Now that I'm done collecting cycles, however temporarily, I revisited and updated my personal ranking of cycles.

Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; no cycle]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; no cycle]


Second Tier (in no particular order)
Artur Schnabel
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree; possible Top 10 Contender)
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica; possible Top 10 Contender)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Younwha Lee
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi

[Bruce Hungerford; no cycle]


Third Tier (in no particular order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira (possible second tier)
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Binns (borderline fourth tier)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in no particular order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jean Muller
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch   
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Robert Benz
Richard Goode
Ronald Brautigam
Robert Taub
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
[Glenn Gould; no cycle, thankfully]
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 03, 2018, 07:10:38 AM
Surveying what else is out there, I've broken the remaining cycles that I am aware of into different categories.  The dead cycles list may very well be incomplete.

Complete/In the Can
Llyr Williams
Tamami Honma


Complete/Never Issued In Full
Hiroaki Ooi
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)


Multiple Pianists/No Interest
Malcolm Bilson, etc
St.Petersburg Collective


OOP
Daniela Varinska
Gotthard Kladetzky
Michael Steinberg
Robert Riefling
Shoko Sugitani
Walter Gieseking (EMI, incomplete)


Fakes (?)/Questionable
Alicja Kot
Claudio Colombo
Giancarlo Andretti
Joyce Hatto (aka, altered John O'Conor)
Shisei Hanai
Vladimir Morrone


Dead Cycles
Bruno Leonardo Gelber
Giovanni Belluci
Mitsutaka Shiraishi
Muriel Chemin
Per Tengstrand


Ongoing - buying as released
Angela Hewitt
Jonathan Biss
Saleem Abboud Ashkar


Ongoing - others
Akihiro Sakiya
David Ezra Okonsar
Davide Cabassi
Igor Tchetuev
James Brawn
Kazune Shimizu (II)
Letizia Michielon
Martin Roscoe
Maurizio Paciariello
Yoshihiro Kondo
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on March 03, 2018, 12:10:42 PM
Last November I ourchased the Claude Frank set on Amazon.de for some 2£ and pennies. It was never delivered, but every once in a while they kept me informed, mentioning I could cancel any time. I just let it go. Yesterday they gave me a delivery date (!!). Of course I'll only believe it when it thumps on the doormat. Someetime between March 28 and April 16 if I am to believe their notification.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 03, 2018, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 03, 2018, 07:10:30 AM
Now that I'm done collecting cycles, however temporarily, I revisited and updated my personal ranking of cycles.

Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)


Second Tier (in no particular order)

Third Tier (in no particular order)
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)

Fourth Tier (in no particular order)


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)

Not having heard it, I've always been intrigued by the thought of the Kempff cycle from Tokyo, given that Kempff's abilities were said (i.e. by Joachim Kaiser) to translate better live than in the studio. Yet while you very much cherish his studio cycles (as do I), that cycle doesn't rank highly with you at all. How come? Defects? Bad sound? Off-playing?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on March 03, 2018, 03:53:04 PM
I think the Tchetuev must be a dead cycle, with defunct label Caro Mitis. Why is the Bellucci cycle listed as dead, as the first 3 cd volume 1 just recently appeared and was said to be the first volume of a complete cycle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 03, 2018, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 03, 2018, 01:03:38 PM
Not having heard it, I've always been intrigued by the thought of the Kempff cycle from Tokyo, given that Kempff's abilities were said (i.e. by Joachim Kaiser) to translate better live than in the studio. Yet while you very much cherish his studio cycles (as do I), that cycle doesn't rank highly with you at all. How come? Defects? Bad sound? Off-playing?


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22518.msg762410.html#msg762410



Quote from: Oldnslow on March 03, 2018, 03:53:04 PMWhy is the Bellucci cycle listed as dead


If they're new recordings, maybe he has restarted his cycle, but there have been three discs of sonatas floating around for a decade.  Hopefully, he completes his cycle, but I'm not holding my breath. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on March 03, 2018, 09:19:45 PM
Bellucci's recordings on the  Brilliant 3 cd set are new recordings, and are volume one so I expect he will finish the sonatas. The early sonatas are decidedly weird---all kinds of hesitations, strange tempos, etc. but worth a listen if you like something different
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 03, 2018, 10:57:02 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 03, 2018, 06:08:51 PM

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22518.msg762410.html#msg762410


Thanks! I thought you might have had a report posted. Reading it right now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on March 28, 2018, 01:43:10 AM
The Lucchesini set is available at a very good price (new €70.00 + shipping) on the amazon.it marketplace.

https://www.amazon.it/dp/B0001CPHPU/?coliid=I1KHB5SEX7QO60&colid=3BT5N27NJ5D8U&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Anyone interested? Me, I've already downloaded the lossless files, and I'm not interested in buying the physical copy as well.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: king ubu on March 28, 2018, 03:28:17 AM
How to get the Backhaus mono cycle? The Decca "Original Masters" set has the stereo cycle*, it seems (I've got it and like it a lot).

*) except for the mono "Hammerklavier" - no stereo recording of that around?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on March 28, 2018, 03:50:37 AM
Quote from: king ubu on March 28, 2018, 03:28:17 AM
How to get the Backhaus mono cycle? The Decca "Original Masters" set has the stereo cycle*, it seems (I've got it and like it a lot).

*) except for the mono "Hammerklavier" - no stereo recording of that around?

Pristine Classical offers the complete Decca early '50s mono cycle (https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabx009) for $182 - which is too rich for my blood.  I dunno, I am not sure it is *that* much better than the stereo set.

Others more knowledgable than I might know of other versions available, but the Pristine set has been pitch corrected and with spiffed up audio.  However, I haven't heard any of it, although there are samples at the site.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 28, 2018, 05:52:50 AM
Quote from: king ubu on March 28, 2018, 03:28:17 AM
How to get the Backhaus mono cycle? The Decca "Original Masters" set has the stereo cycle*, it seems (I've got it and like it a lot).

*) except for the mono "Hammerklavier" - no stereo recording of that around?

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/aw/d/B00005FKXU/ref=mp_s_a_1_10?__mk_ja_JP=カタカナ&qid=1522245121&sr=8-10&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=beethoven+backhaus+sonatas

With thanks to Jens Laurson for finding the link.  $:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Turner on March 28, 2018, 05:58:42 AM
Quote from: Oldnslow on March 03, 2018, 09:19:45 PM
Bellucci's recordings on the  Brilliant 3 cd set are new recordings, and are volume one so I expect he will finish the sonatas. The early sonatas are decidedly weird---all kinds of hesitations, strange tempos, etc. but worth a listen if you like something different

Of some interest, I think. A good deal of clips on you-tube

nr. 17 (!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYLqIBAAkCE

nr. 23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkoDhqDSLA4

nr. 14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z37ZpunICqk

but generally with rather poor live sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: king ubu on March 28, 2018, 07:04:05 AM
Quote from: Marcabru on March 28, 2018, 03:50:37 AM
Pristine Classical offers the complete Decca early '50s mono cycle (https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabx009) for $182 - which is too rich for my blood.  I dunno, I am not sure it is *that* much better than the stereo set.
Thanks! But that's definitely too rich for me as well!

Quote from: George on March 28, 2018, 05:52:50 AM
https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/aw/d/B00005FKXU/ref=mp_s_a_1_10?__mk_ja_JP=カタカナ&qid=1522245121&sr=8-10&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=beethoven+backhaus+sonatas

With thanks to Jens Laurson for finding the link.  $:)
Thanks as well ... hm, that one, too ... was hoping I was just too stoopid to find the right "domestic" edition.

But then I have so many recordings around (not nearly as many as Todd, of course, but ...)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on March 28, 2018, 07:06:21 AM
Quote from: king ubu on March 28, 2018, 07:04:05 AM
Thanks! But that's definitely too rich for me as well!

They offer it a bit cheaper without the plastic cases: €104.50 (approx. $129.67) - 11 CD only in plastic sleeve (+MP3)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on March 28, 2018, 07:17:45 AM
Quote from: king ubu on March 28, 2018, 03:28:17 AM


*) except for the mono "Hammerklavier" - no stereo recording of that around?

I have this recording, I can't tell if it's mono or stereo, maybe it's too early for stereo, I don't know,  whatever it is it's very good and every home should have one.

http://www.meloclassic.com/shop/wilhelm-backhaus-2/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on March 28, 2018, 08:43:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 28, 2018, 07:17:45 AM
I have this recording, I can't tell if it's mono or stereo, maybe it's too early for stereo, I don't know,  whatever it is it's very good and every home should have one.

http://www.meloclassic.com/shop/wilhelm-backhaus-2/

There are two other live recordings of op.106 also in mono. One from Beethovenhalle, Bonn and one from Carnegie Hall.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2018, 10:39:50 AM
Quote from: Marcabru on March 28, 2018, 03:50:37 AM
Pristine Classical offers the complete Decca early '50s mono cycle (https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabx009) for $182 - which is too rich for my blood.  I dunno, I am not sure it is *that* much better than the stereo set.

Others more knowledgable than I might know of other versions available, but the Pristine set has been pitch corrected and with spiffed up audio.  However, I haven't heard any of it, although there are samples at the site.

I don't trust Pristine Audio and their shenanigans (or their shill reviewers at a few particular reviewing-sites), but that's just me and more instinct than actual bad experience.

As per Backhaus' Mono Set (thanks for the thanks, George, re: my link-squirreling) I suspect you might be onto something. I should point out that GMG resident LvB-Sonata chief Todd prefers the Backhaus mono cycle to the stereo cycle. I have both, because I LOVE Backhaus, eventually getting that set from Japan. Despite the rarity and cost and the felt triumph of having attained it, it did not shoot up my list to become the new favorite. I'm not sure if I don't prefer the stereo set by a small margin; in any case it's pretty even. I love them both. This is different from Kempff, where I really do think that the Mono set is worth listening to over the stereo set for the playful, more lively character, which is notably different. W/Backhaus, even moreso than with Kempff, both sets are definitely late Backhaus (as opposed to middle-late Kempff vs pretty-late-Kempff).

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 28, 2018, 10:59:28 AM
Really crazy that a set with such legendary status has not been released in a reasonable edition, especially since Decca Japan has already done the work of making digital masters.

In any case, now I can imagine how divine it is without worrying about being disappointed by actually hearing it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on March 28, 2018, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2018, 10:39:50 AM

I should point out that GMG resident LvB-Sonata chief Todd prefers the Backhaus mono cycle to the stereo cycle. I have both, because I LOVE Backhaus, eventually getting that set from Japan. Despite the rarity and cost and the felt triumph of having attained it, it did not shoot up my list to become the new favorite. I'm not sure if I don't prefer the stereo set by a small margin; in any case it's pretty even. I love them both. .... both sets are definitely late Backhaus (as opposed to middle-late Kempff vs pretty-late-Kempff).

I also own both sets. I tend to agree with you, considering them pretty even.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 28, 2018, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2018, 10:39:50 AM
I don't trust Pristine Audio and their shenanigans (or their shill reviewers at a few particular reviewing-sites), but that's just me and more instinct than actual bad experience.

I have compared a number of Pristine releases to other transfers and in each case the Pristine sounded unnatural and overly processed.

QuoteAs per Backhaus' Mono Set (thanks for the thanks, George, re: my link-squirreling) I suspect you might be onto something. I should point out that GMG resident LvB-Sonata chief Todd prefers the Backhaus mono cycle to the stereo cycle. I have both, because I LOVE Backhaus, eventually getting that set from Japan. Despite the rarity and cost and the felt triumph of having attained it, it did not shoot up my list to become the new favorite. I'm not sure if I don't prefer the stereo set by a small margin; in any case it's pretty even. I love them both. This is different from Kempff, where I really do think that the Mono set is worth listening to over the stereo set for the playful, more lively character, which is notably different. W/Backhaus, even moreso than with Kempff, both sets are definitely late Backhaus (as opposed to middle-late Kempff vs pretty-late-Kempff).

Of course, the stereo set has the advantage of much better sound. To me, though, for performance, in the first (mono) set Backhaus sounds bit fresher, a little more alive.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on March 30, 2018, 06:25:48 AM
Anyone familiar with this cycle?  New from Hyperion (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_SIGCD527&utm_medium=DM&utm_source=DM2018_04&dm_i=10ZR,5J27G,JL36XM,LG9NW,1).

Beethoven Unbound : Llŷr Williams (piano)

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/635212052723.png)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on March 30, 2018, 10:42:30 AM
Received today (ordered last November  ???):

(https://www.musicandarts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/d/cd-4640_front_cover_new.jpg)


The box is damaged, as if it had been lodged under some very heavy load. But it's there, and it cost 2€... My first LvB set since Heidsieck's from a few years ago. I love most of the sonatas, but have never considered myself a True Believer, let alone a collector. Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on April 01, 2018, 06:40:23 PM
Quote from: Marcabru on March 30, 2018, 06:25:48 AM
Anyone familiar with this cycle?  New from Hyperion (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_SIGCD527&utm_medium=DM&utm_source=DM2018_04&dm_i=10ZR,5J27G,JL36XM,LG9NW,1).

Beethoven Unbound : Llŷr Williams (piano)

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/635212052723.png)

My coworker got it and we played some pieces.  What I heard was rock solid.  I'm not sure what makes it "unbound"....One interesting feature is that it is 13 discs, with a lot of rearranging from linear order, and  other LvB solo piano pieces (bagatelles, fantasias, variations, etc) mixed in here and there to make an original program.  The mic placement may have been a little close, but could have been my friend's speakers or stereo (or the volume--we were playing it pretty loudly).   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 02, 2018, 02:26:48 AM

And it's the opening shot of the next chapter in the grand Beethoven Piano Sonata Cycle Survey!


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/04/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/04/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2018, 04:38:46 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/8rcMG-NPVZKag8ucL-bVWvaIxuE=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6999128-1431359180-3538.jpeg.jpg)

A perfectly respectable middle of the road performance of op 111 from Hans Henkemans here in this LP, I believe there was a transfer to CD. Satisfying like his Mozart in that it's got a smallest bowl of porridge quality - it's just right. No new ideas or anything like that, just a thoroughly satisfying conventional performance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2018, 07:01:26 AM
Documentary on Beghin's late Beethoven recording

http://www.orpheusinstituut.be/en/news/2017/09/inside-the-hearing-machine
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on April 08, 2018, 06:26:33 AM
I cannot find Mandryka's post about the Backhaus Hammerklaviersonata live from Ludwigsburg 1953, but the post alerted me to get hold of the recording. And this is one of the most titanic interpretations I have heard, harboring much more drive and tension than Backhaus' commercial Decca mono recording from almost the same time. Sound is good for its time. Strongly recommended and thanks to Mandryka.

Available here:

http://www.meloclassic.com/shop/wilhelm-backhaus-2/

or here:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8404468--wilhelm-backhaus-recital-concertos
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 08, 2018, 06:45:35 AM
Anyone happen to have a promo code for Meloclassics?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2018, 09:25:38 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 08, 2018, 06:26:33 AM
I cannot find Mandryka's post about the Backhaus Hammerklaviersonata live from Ludwigsburg 1953, but the post alerted me to get hold of the recording. And this is one of the most titanic interpretations I have heard, harboring much more drive and tension than Backhaus' commercial Decca mono recording from almost the same time. Sound is good for its time. Strongly recommended and thanks to Mandryka.

Available here:

http://www.meloclassic.com/shop/wilhelm-backhaus-2/

or here:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8404468--wilhelm-backhaus-recital-concertos

I'm glad you liked it. I think that concert in 1953 was just a night when he was particularly inspired, the op 2/3 is also outstanding I think -- a different night (I just checked!)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on April 09, 2018, 04:09:37 AM
This performance can be heard on Spotify.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on April 09, 2018, 05:24:20 AM
Quote from: Holden on April 09, 2018, 04:09:37 AM
This performance can be heard on Spotify.

In my country (and probably many others) Spotify is unavailable.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on April 09, 2018, 09:22:02 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 09, 2018, 05:24:20 AM
In my country (and probably many others) Spotify is unavailable.

Premont, are you really sure?

https://support.spotify.com/us/using_spotify/the_basics/full-list-of-territories-where-spotify-is-available/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on April 09, 2018, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 09, 2018, 09:22:02 AM
Premont, are you really sure?

https://support.spotify.com/us/using_spotify/the_basics/full-list-of-territories-where-spotify-is-available/

I registered at Spotify some months ago and got the message, that Spotify was not available in my country, but Spotify would notify me when (or maybe if) it became available. This is what I know. I attempted to listen to or purchase a recording and got the same result.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on April 09, 2018, 09:53:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 09, 2018, 01:55:19 PM
I registered at Spotify some months ago and got the message, that Spotify was not available in my country, but Spotify would notify me when (or maybe if) it became available. This is what I know. I attempted to listen to or purchase a recording and got the same result.

Very strange indeed.

https://www.spotify.com/dk/

https://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/1163725/spotify-launches-in-denmark-its-ninth-country

(Apologies to the Beethoven fans for getting off-topic.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 13, 2018, 05:59:10 AM
I have listened to a few volumes of Llyr Williams' new cycle while my ISP refuses to let me see GMG. Honestly, despite high expectations - producer Judith Sherman is a reliable marker of high quality - I am not sure I will be continuing. Williams is certainly a fine pianist, but his main interpretive trait is to play slowly, as if exercising caution. Probably most of his tempos are similar to Gilels, but without the romantic warmth. I am awfully fond of the Eroica Variations, for example, and wish more pianists would include it in their sonata cycles, but at about 11:45 in this performance I thought, "Wow, this piece is super long, huh?" It's interesting to hear even very classical works like Op. 79 getting the same treatment (slow movement there is quite distinctive) but then the pieces which sit right on the stylistic fault line that runs through Beethoven from roughly Op. 22-31 are a problem, because you can't hear that duality. They're a wee bit tame.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kishnevi on April 13, 2018, 05:24:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 13, 2018, 05:59:10 AM
I have listened to a few volumes of Llyr Williams' new cycle while my ISP refuses to let me see GMG. Honestly, despite high expectations - producer Judith Sherman is a reliable marker of high quality - I am not sure I will be continuing. Williams is certainly a fine pianist, but his main interpretive trait is to play slowly, as if exercising caution. Probably most of his tempos are similar to Gilels, but without the romantic warmth. I am awfully fond of the Eroica Variations, for example, and wish more pianists would include it in their sonata cycles, but at about 11:45 in this performance I thought, "Wow, this piece is super long, huh?" It's interesting to hear even very classical works like Op. 79 getting the same treatment (slow movement there is quite distinctive) but then the pieces which sit right on the stylistic fault line that runs through Beethoven from roughly Op. 22-31 are a problem, because you can't hear that duality. They're a wee bit tame.

Thanks. You make me feel better about not ordering it. Arkivmusic is highlighting it for their sale this week.

Niw, let's see if my ISP lets me post this....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 14, 2018, 12:58:22 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61J7XDVWDNL._SY425_.jpg)


While listening to Georg Friedrich Schenck's speedy and energetic 2/3 & 106 disc from 2000 on Piano Classics, I read in the liner notes that the pianist recorded the complete cycle in 1987/88.  I've not found the complete set, but I did find this disc.  There could be another OOP set out there just begging to be hunted down.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 14, 2018, 01:05:39 PM
Quote from: Todd on April 14, 2018, 12:58:22 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61J7XDVWDNL._SY425_.jpg)


While listening to Georg Friedrich Schenck's speedy and energetic 2/3 & 106 disc from 2000 on Piano Classics, I read in the liner notes that the pianist recorded the complete cycle in 1987/88.  I've not found the complete set, but I did find this disc.  There could be another OOP set out there just begging to be hunted down.

Woha! Todd is like a truffle pig of Beethoven sonata cycles.  ;D

Meanwhile, I've added the Martin Roscoe cycle to the LvB Sonata Cycle Survey. Finished but not yet completely released:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)


Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 8, 2010 - 2013
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 21, 2018, 11:37:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/YlFSpKoEqNY

Krystian Zimerman OP 110 USA 2003. A really tender interpretation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 19, 2018, 05:44:45 AM
Jingge Yan appears to be in the midst of recording a cycle.  He may even have finished one.  The three disc third volume of his cycle is slated for release next month.  The only problem for me is that I've never seen volumes one or two before. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 19, 2018, 07:48:08 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 19, 2018, 05:44:45 AM
Jingge Yan appears to be in the midst of recording a cycle.  He may even have finished one.  The three disc third volume of his cycle is slated for release next month.  The only problem for me is that I've never seen volumes one or two before.

Volumes 4 & 5 to appear next spring. Don't know about v.1 & 2, either... perhaps recorded for a different, defunct label and to be added at the end (or re-recorded)? I'll find out and have an answer soon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on June 06, 2018, 05:14:33 AM
Hungaraton have put Annie Fischer's complete cycle back in print. Just noticed it when I was going through ImportCDs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 06, 2018, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: staxomega on June 06, 2018, 05:14:33 AM
Hungaraton have put Annie Fischer's complete cycle back in print. Just noticed it when I was going through ImportCDs.

It's actually been back in print since 2013/2014: https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas/dp/B06Y3Q78LL/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?ie=UTF8&qid=1528324138&sr=8-1&keywords=annie+fischer+beethoven+sonatas
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: betterthanfine on June 06, 2018, 03:38:00 PM
Still idiotically expensive.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 06, 2018, 11:27:26 PM
Jingge Yan Situation:

Volume 3 has been released now:

Ludwig van Beethoven – Piano Sonatas Vol. III, CD 6 - 8 (http://a-fwd.to/2b02i2s) - each disc with a title, of course, and they include these sonatas:

CD 6 – Affetuoso Sonaten op. 49 Nr. 1 + Nr. 2, op. 7, op. 78, op. 79
CD 7 – The Furious Giant Sonaten op. 90, op. 101, op. 106
CD 8 – Eternal Transcendence Sonaten op. 109, op. 110, op. 111

Volume II, containing CDs 4 & 5, will be released this Fall and Vol. I, containing CDs 1-3, in Spring of 2019.

It may not be released in the US yet, but presumably will be, before long.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on June 07, 2018, 11:04:03 AM
Quote from: George on June 06, 2018, 02:30:41 PM
It's actually been back in print since 2013/2014: https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas/dp/B06Y3Q78LL/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?ie=UTF8&qid=1528324138&sr=8-1&keywords=annie+fischer+beethoven+sonatas

Ah, thanks. I only saw it when I was recently browsing ImportCDs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 16, 2018, 03:26:46 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51eRZ5pF2UL._SS425.jpg)


Finished a first go-round of Llŷr Williams' cycle.  Two words best sum it up: too polite.  I may scribble more detail after a second listen, but it took me an uncommonly long time to work my way through the set, so I have my doubts.  Williams is at his relative best in the sets of variations and Op 77, with the Diabelli's on the lyrical side, though nowhere near the best.  In the sonatas, 31/1 and 53 are quite good, and some of the early sonatas are nice.  Overall, fourth tier for me after first listen.  It's hard to imagnine it faring better over time, but maybe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on January 22, 2019, 04:00:17 AM
Sudbin's recordings of 110, 111 and the Bagatelles: http://www.yevgenysudbin.com/artist.php?view=prog&rid=3154

Has anyone heard it? Someone in another forum's classical thread had the disc in December (available from Sudbin's website), still not on BIS' website.

(https://i.imgur.com/OpZqoeo.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on January 29, 2019, 04:21:28 AM
John Browning's recording of Op. 110 is one of the truly great performances I've heard, it will be making my personal top 5. This was reissued as part of a box by Sony, it should be on Spotify.

(https://i.imgur.com/h904tHs.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 29, 2019, 10:58:50 PM
Quote from: staxomega on January 29, 2019, 04:21:28 AM
John Browning's recording of Op. 110 is one of the truly great performances I've heard, it will be making my personal top 5. This was reissued as part of a box by Sony, it should be on Spotify.

(https://i.imgur.com/h904tHs.jpg)

Thanks for pointing it out, he's not a pianist I've ever heard before, without being able to say more, I can say that it's a fine op 110.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 11:49:50 AM
Am I the only one that gets pleasure from the Pommier set?

[asin]B000EQHV48[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 01, 2019, 11:56:57 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 11:49:50 AM
Am I the only one that gets pleasure from the Pommier set?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000EQHV48.01.L.jpg)

I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 12:00:02 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 01, 2019, 11:56:57 AM
I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's.  ;D

That's cold.  >:(

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 01, 2019, 12:40:52 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 01, 2019, 11:56:57 AM
I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's.  ;D

Annie Fischer's mother recorded a set?!  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: North Star on February 01, 2019, 01:02:06 PM
Quote from: George on February 01, 2019, 12:40:52 PM
Annie Fischer's mother recorded a set?!  :o
I think he must have meant that Annie Fischer's mom likes the Pommier set more than Pommier's mother does.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 01, 2019, 01:17:32 PM
Quote from: North Star on February 01, 2019, 01:02:06 PM
I think he must have meant that Annie Fischer's mom likes the Pommier set more than Pommier's mother does.

I know, I was just pulling his leg.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 01:24:27 PM
I hope poor Jean-Bernard doesn't google himself and find this thread.  :(

Recording the 32 is a thankless job.

:laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on February 01, 2019, 01:28:27 PM
Quote from: North Star on February 01, 2019, 01:02:06 PM
I think he must have meant that Annie Fischer's mom likes the Pommier set more than Pommier's mother does.

I thought he was saying that Pommier's mother likes his recordings but not as much as she likes Annie Fischer's set.   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 01:34:02 PM
Isn't the English language wonderful, you can use a possessive without saying what is possessed and the reader is supposed to find it obvious by context

I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's [recording].
I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's [mother does].
I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's [mother's recording].

Have I missed any possibilities? :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on February 01, 2019, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 01:34:02 PM
Isn't the English language wonderful, you can use a possessive without saying what is possessed and the reader is supposed to find it obvious by context

I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's [recording].
I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's [mother does].
I've heard his mother rather likes it, if less than Annie Fischer's [mother's recording].

Have I missed any possibilities? :)

:D :laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Papy Oli on February 01, 2019, 01:50:18 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 11:49:50 AM
Am I the only one that gets pleasure from the Pommier set?

[asin]B000EQHV48[/asin]

No, that was my first cycle and enjoyed it thoroughly for a long time before I explored the sonatas further with other more distinctive styles. Thank you for that reminder to dig that one out again.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on February 01, 2019, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 11:49:50 AM
Am I the only one that gets pleasure from the Pommier set?

[asin]B000EQHV48[/asin]

It's cheap enough on Amazon MP, so I ordered it....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 02:16:30 PM
I hope you enjoy it. There is a "French" feel to it, leaning more towards wit and less towards the usual Germanic storming of the heavens.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 01, 2019, 02:21:11 PM
I'm not sure that making Beethoven sound less Germanic is a recommendation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 02:24:31 PM
Quote from: Madiel on February 01, 2019, 02:21:11 PM
I'm not sure that making Beethoven sound less Germanic is a recommendation.

It appeals to me as an alternative. It manifested itself (for me) as a certain lightness and lifting of seriousness in the finale of Op 101.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 02, 2019, 12:13:12 AM
I think of Beethoven as the last mostly "international" composer, unlike his contemporaries von Weber and Schubert. So he can take both germanified and frenchified interpretations...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on February 02, 2019, 09:12:31 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 11:49:50 AM
Am I the only one that gets pleasure from the Pommier set?

[asin]B000EQHV48[/asin]

No.
I recall especially liking the early up to middle period sonatas.
Maybe because he's also played a lot of Mozart... dunno. Anyway, Pommier is very well able to pleasure me. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 02, 2019, 09:34:18 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 01, 2019, 02:21:11 PM
I'm not sure that making Beethoven sound less Germanic is a recommendation.

To me it certainly is, so I got it. Thank you Scarpia for bringing this set to my attention.

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 02:24:31 PM
It appeals to me as an alternative. It manifested itself (for me) as a certain lightness and lifting of seriousness in the finale of Op 101.


Reclaiming Beethoven from his posterity?  :P

I particularly liked this (clumsily phrased but perceptive nevertheless) comment by an Amazon customer:

The landscape of Watteau and Fragonard, of equilibrium and pastoral delights, as Kenneth Clark reminded us, pleasure and joy have as much a place in civilisation as the heroic and tragic. (emphasis mine and amen!)

Now this really looks like an interesting set. Will report back asap.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 02, 2019, 10:59:05 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 01, 2019, 11:49:50 AM
Am I the only one that gets pleasure from the Pommier set?

[asin]B000EQHV48[/asin]

Not at all. I too find his light and transparent style - which without doubt is the result of an active artistic decision - very refreshing in a crowded German style dominated field.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 02, 2019, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: Florestan on February 02, 2019, 09:34:18 AM
The landscape of Watteau and Fragonard, of equilibrium and pastoral delights, as Kenneth Clark reminded us, pleasure and joy have as much a place in civilisation as the heroic and tragic. (emphasis mine and amen!)

I wasn't querying their place in civilisation. Just their place in Beethoven. And Beethoven certainly has pleasure and joy, what I'm uncertain about is whether he has Watteau and Fragonard.

The Pastorale symphony still has a storm in it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 02, 2019, 11:40:35 PM
Quote from: Madiel on February 02, 2019, 04:06:09 PM
I wasn't querying their place in civilisation. Just their place in Beethoven.

Yes, I understood your point alright and I didn't mean to take issues with it. I meant simply that for me a lighter approach to his piano sonatas (what Scarpia termed "less Germanic storming of the heavens") might make for an interesting experience and therefore I acquired the set. I might end up hating it, I don't know, but Scarpia's description of it appeals to my own aesthetic sensibilities (which are rather Biedermeyer than Sturm und Drang, to keep it Germanic  :D ).

Quote
And Beethoven certainly has pleasure and joy, what I'm uncertain about is whether he has Watteau and Fragonard.

It's more like Claude Lorrain, perhaps.  :)

Seriously now, I already acknowledged the clumsiness of his phrasing. I think he is right, though, in the sense that a long and illustrious tradition (which is indeed German in origin and conception) privileged the heroic and tragic in Beethoven at the expense of his other features. I'm more than willing to hear an interpretation which allegedly redresses, or even reverses, the balance.

Quote
The Pastorale symphony still has a storm in it.

I'd have been very surprised if it didn't have one. Yet it's a storm in the  nature, not in the soul.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on February 03, 2019, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 02, 2019, 04:06:09 PM
I wasn't querying their place in civilisation. Just their place in Beethoven. And Beethoven certainly has pleasure and joy, what I'm uncertain about is whether he has Watteau and Fragonard.

The Pastorale symphony still has a storm in it.

Well, Berlioz,  Gounod, and Boulez are all French, but Watteau and Fragonard are not the painters I would most easily associate with them!

But do not forget that Pascal, Danton, and Hugo are part of the "French" tradition...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 03, 2019, 09:49:31 AM
Quote from: JBS on February 03, 2019, 09:45:11 AM
Well, Berlioz,  Gounod, and Boulez are all French, but Watteau and Fragonard are not the painters I would most easily associate with them!

Well, Berlioz was accused of being actually a German musician, not a French one.  :laugh:

Quote
Pascal, Danton, and Hugo are part of the "French" tradition...

This looks like a game of the type "which name does not belong to the list"?  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 03, 2019, 01:35:44 PM
The mentions of literature and painting seem far from the original point I wished to make, which is just that the French school of piano playing, which I would say emphasizes a lighter touch on the keyboard and the idea that expression should be combined with elegance, is a fruitful approach to Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 03, 2019, 03:32:34 PM
I have complete or partial Beethoven sonata cycles from Paul Badura-Skoda, Michaël Lévinas, András Schiff, Kazune Shimizu, Stewart Goodyear, Michael Korstick, Yusuke Kikuchi, Paul Komen, Stephen Kovacevich, Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Rudolf Serkin, Paavali Jumppanen and Friedrich Gulda along with plenty of individual releases. I would be hard pressed to identify any of them as being from the French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, Dutch or Japanese schools of piano playing on a blind test.

Suspect that knowing the name of the performer can lend a certain bias to proceedings—if I gave many classical music reviewers a recording of the Waldstein and told them it was by Claude-André Baguette, they would probably review it as being a "representative of the French school" and possessing a "Gallic lightness", whereas giving them the same recording under the name of Hans-Jürgen von Sauerkraut would lead to comments about the "Germanic ponderousness" and so on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 03, 2019, 04:33:19 PM
I would never claim that you can tell the nationality of pianist by listening, or that a "French" approach is only achieved by natives of that country. (Maybe it was more likely to be true 100 years ago when music was a more local phenomenon.) But I think I can identify a lighter, more elegant approach to the music, whether it can be objectively called "French." And aside from birth, I don't think it is implausible that a pianist whose bread and butter is performing Faure, Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc would have different instincts when a score of Beethoven or Brahms is set in front of them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 03, 2019, 07:19:47 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 03, 2019, 04:33:19 PM
And aside from birth, I don't think it is implausible that a pianist whose bread and butter is performing Faure, Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc would have different instincts when a score of Beethoven or Brahms is set in front of them.

Hmm. Which I think is kind of where I had a problem with the concept. Because I would like as much as possible for a pianist to enter Beethoven's world, rather than pulling Beethoven into theirs.

There's actually some good evidence that language influences composition at least, e.g. that French composers tend to have certain characteristics that are reflective of the French language, even when they're not setting texts.

But Beethoven is not French, aborted ideas of a dedication to Napoleon notwithstanding. And to my mind I don't think it's ideal for him to be played in a French way any more than I think it's ideal for German to be spoken with a strong French accent.

I might actually be perfectly happy with the recordings we were talking about of course. But it wouldn't be on the basis that I considered the playing to be in a French style.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 04, 2019, 07:43:03 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 03, 2019, 07:19:47 PM
Hmm. Which I think is kind of where I had a problem with the concept. Because I would like as much as possible for a pianist to enter Beethoven's world, rather than pulling Beethoven into theirs.

There's actually some good evidence that language influences composition at least, e.g. that French composers tend to have certain characteristics that are reflective of the French language, even when they're not setting texts.

But Beethoven is not French, aborted ideas of a dedication to Napoleon notwithstanding. And to my mind I don't think it's ideal for him to be played in a French way any more than I think it's ideal for German to be spoken with a strong French accent.

I might actually be perfectly happy with the recordings we were talking about of course. But it wouldn't be on the basis that I considered the playing to be in a French style.

I would say it is "French" just to the extent that 20th century French composers seemed to seek an alternative to the increasingly heavy expressiveness and density of German music at the time. I'm not so much interested in "French" Beethoven as more graceful, elegant Beethoven. I wouldn't say it is the exclusive province of the French.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 04, 2019, 08:11:15 AM
Quote from: amw on February 03, 2019, 03:32:34 PM
I have complete or partial Beethoven sonata cycles from Paul Badura-Skoda, Michaël Lévinas, András Schiff, Kazune Shimizu, Stewart Goodyear, Michael Korstick, Yusuke Kikuchi, Paul Komen, Stephen Kovacevich, Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Rudolf Serkin, Paavali Jumppanen and Friedrich Gulda along with plenty of individual releases. I would be hard pressed to identify any of them as being from the French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, Dutch or Japanese schools of piano playing on a blind test.

Suspect that knowing the name of the performer can lend a certain bias to proceedings—if I gave many classical music reviewers a recording of the Waldstein and told them it was by Claude-André Baguette, they would probably review it as being a "representative of the French school" and possessing a "Gallic lightness", whereas giving them the same recording under the name of Hans-Jürgen von Sauerkraut would lead to comments about the "Germanic ponderousness" and so on.

I've meant to buy this book for years but never have. I think French pianists developed a distinctive way of touching the keys, it's got a name, something like the "plink plonk school" -- I'm not joking. Pianists like Maguerite Long

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41oo8BWtA4L._SX335_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 04, 2019, 08:30:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 04, 2019, 08:11:15 AM
I've meant to buy this book for years but never have. I think French pianists developed a distinctive way of touching the keys, it's got a name, something like the "plink plonk school" -- I'm not joking. Pianists like Maguerite Long

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41oo8BWtA4L._SX335_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Interesting, but I would imagine that regional styles have faded as classical music has become more cosmopolitan.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2019, 10:50:35 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 04, 2019, 07:43:03 AM
I would say it is "French" just to the extent that 20th century French composers seemed to seek an alternative to the increasingly heavy expressiveness and density of German music at the time.

Well, I'd say the (healthy) French reaction started well before the 20th century. Saint-Saens, Alkan, Gounod, Bizet, Massenet, Chabrier, Faure, not to mention the crème de la crème, ie Chopin --- there's little in their piano music that they really owe to Beethoven, who although settling in Vienna nevertheless carried an all-too-heavy North Germanic baggage which Haydn found a little too cumbersome. Same thing happened to Brahms, but he had no Haydn to warn him about the dangers --- on the contrary, he had the all-too-North-Germanic Schumann as a prophet.

Don't get me wrong, I love Beethoven, Schumann and Brahms not less than you all do --- but I can't help noticing that their names and heritage were used in establishing a framework in which lighter, more relaxed, less heroic, less tragic or downright non-heroic and non-tragic musical works were seen as frivolous, trivial and not worthy of the "art" status --- the corollary being that musical works which previous generations associated with anything but serious, tragic and heroic, yet were composed by (German) big names, were appropriated by the "Doom&Gloom Brigade", which is a thing wholely and solely of German origin and conception.  :laugh:

And don't even get me started on Wagner --- the biggest killjoy in the entire European music history, a handful of his fanatic devotees notwithstanding. I defy anyone in his right mind to sit stiff and still for more than two hours a night, four nights in a row, and claim they experienced pleasure.  ;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ritter on February 04, 2019, 10:56:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2019, 10:50:35 AM
...
And don't even get me started on Wagner --- the biggest killjoy in the entire European music history, a handful of his fanatic devotees notwithstanding. I defy anyone in his right mind to sit stiff and still for more than two hours a night, four nights in a row, and claim they experienced pleasure.  ;D
Reporting for duty, Sir!  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2019, 10:57:45 AM
Quote from: ritter on February 04, 2019, 10:56:27 AM
Reporting for duty, Sir!  >:D

As I said, a handful of fanatics notwithstanding.  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 04, 2019, 10:58:27 AM
I thought this was really funny, she reminds me of my mum's hairdresser in the 1960s

https://www.youtube.com/v/45DrMuzTeCU
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ritter on February 04, 2019, 10:59:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2019, 10:57:45 AM
As I said, a handful of fanatics notwithstanding.  >:D
Mmmmm...¡qué atrevida es la ignorancia!  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2019, 11:05:23 AM
Quote from: ritter on February 04, 2019, 10:59:08 AM
Mmmmm...¡qué atrevida es la ignorancia!  :D

I don't know if this reply is addressed to me or to Mandryka, but in my turn I can't help quoting Stravinsky:

I maintain that there is more substance and true invention in the aria 'La donna è mobile,' for example, in which this elite saw nothing but deplorable facility, than in the rhetoric and vociferations of the 'Ring

Take that, Richard Wagner! (or should I be so atrevido as to say take that, Rafael!)  :P >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ritter on February 04, 2019, 11:46:27 AM
Andrei, your mailbox is full....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 04, 2019, 11:50:01 AM
Sorry, but the only one of those mentioned who could be described as "North German" is Brahms. Beethoven was from the Rhineland and while it does not really fit Beethoven's character those people have the reputation of being the most light-hearted and funny ones. Schumann and Wagner were Saxons which was right in the middle of Germany (back then with Prussia and Silesia extending far east). And Mendelssohn was from the north (grew up in Berlin, born in Hamburg) but there is not much northern Germanic about his music.
The most original French composer of the first half of the 19th century, Berlioz, was certainly more heroic and madly romantic than Schumann or Brahms. Or at least he liked to pose in such a fashion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2019, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: ritter on February 04, 2019, 11:46:27 AM
Andrei, your mailbox is full....

Not anymore...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2019, 12:18:56 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 04, 2019, 11:50:01 AM
Sorry, but the only one of those mentioned who could be described as "North German" is Brahms.

Okay, granted. Brahms born in Hamburg.

Quote
Beethoven was from the Rhineland and while it does not really fit Beethoven's character those people have the reputation of being the most light-hearted and funny ones.

If the most light-hearted and funny Germans are the Rhinelanders, then is it right to claim that the echt-Austrians like Schubert and Strauss I and II are conspicuously not German? Is it right to claim that Haydn is not even Austrian?

QuoteSchumann and Wagner were Saxons which was right in the middle of Germany (back then with Prussia and Silesia extending far east). And Mendelssohn was from the north (grew up in Berlin, born in Hamburg) but there is not much northern Germanic about his music.
The most original French composer of the first half of the 19th century, Berlioz, was certainly more heroic and madly romantic than Schumann or Brahms. Or at least he liked to pose in such a fashion.

That is all so confusing... What I do know is that I thoroughly reject any narrative that presents "German" music as serious and "non-German" music as non-serious... Sturm un Drang is hugely overrated, while Biederneyer is hugely underrated,,,

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 04, 2019, 12:58:11 PM
As I said above, I don't think that the "national characters" make a lot of sense in most music. There existed different styles already in the baroque, sure. But they got mixed up already by Couperin and certainly by Bach and Telemann and the second half of the 18th century and the early 19th century were quite cosmopolitan. The great reformer of the French opera was the German Gluck, the greatest composers of Italian opera were Handel in the 1720s and Mozart in the 1780s. The most important "Spanish" composers were Domenico Scarlatti and Lugi Boccherini. The Italian Cherubini dominated the French scene in the early 1800s. Haydn was the most popular composer of instrumental music both in Paris and London where a little later the chief piano virtuosi were Dussek and Clementi (o.k. Britain was such a musical wasteland that they imported everybody).
And while in the first half of the 19th century this changed to some extent, with German language opera slowly beginning to establish itself. But still there are cosmopolitan figures like Liszt who can hardly be claimed by any nation or culture.
Still, for instrumental music the Austro-Germans dominated the field, to the extent that this tradition was not really understood as regional or local in the sense of the developing Russian or Scandinavian "Nationalist" schools. Glinka, Gade, Grieg and others came to Germany or Vienna to study with the established composers. Like some baroque Germans had travelled to Italy.

All this has little to do with "light" or "serious", of course.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 04, 2019, 07:13:30 PM
Florestan, it was pretty much you who DID present a narrative of German seriousness.

Or at least bought into an existing one.

Anyway, I've long been of the view that different music serves different purposes. Some composers are more adept at varying their palette than others. Beethoven was fairly adept.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 05, 2019, 12:07:57 AM
The interesting thing with Beethoven is that if one simply counts the pieces, the humorous and lyrical/pastoral actually dominate the "heroic" ones although of course there are more aspects than these two or three and many pieces encompass all of them. But the reception after Beethoven's death mostly focussed on the "heroic" aspect, with a few important exceptions like the Pastoral symphony.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 05, 2019, 01:11:39 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 04, 2019, 07:13:30 PM
Florestan, it was pretty much you who DID present a narrative of German seriousness.

Or at least bought into an existing one.

Yes, you're right. I must have been in my argumentative mood.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Irons on February 05, 2019, 02:01:41 AM
Quote from: amw on February 03, 2019, 03:32:34 PM
I have complete or partial Beethoven sonata cycles from Paul Badura-Skoda, Michaël Lévinas, András Schiff, Kazune Shimizu, Stewart Goodyear, Michael Korstick, Yusuke Kikuchi, Paul Komen, Stephen Kovacevich, Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Rudolf Serkin, Paavali Jumppanen and Friedrich Gulda along with plenty of individual releases. I would be hard pressed to identify any of them as being from the French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, Dutch or Japanese schools of piano playing on a blind test.

Suspect that knowing the name of the performer can lend a certain bias to proceedings—if I gave many classical music reviewers a recording of the Waldstein and told them it was by Claude-André Baguette, they would probably review it as being a "representative of the French school" and possessing a "Gallic lightness", whereas giving them the same recording under the name of Hans-Jürgen von Sauerkraut would lead to comments about the "Germanic ponderousness" and so on.

Brilliant :laugh: which also makes a good point. What if you have the sauerkraut in the baguette? Best of both worlds, maybe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2019, 03:14:34 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21KK2WCYY1L._AC_US218_.jpg)

I dug this out this morning. I'd totally forgotten how very good the op 110 is. He clearly had a bit of a swansong.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 05, 2019, 10:07:04 AM
I have this CD. The Schumann Op 17 Fantasie is the best ever recorded IMO
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2019, 10:54:37 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 05, 2019, 10:07:04 AM
I have this CD. The Schumann Op 17 Fantasie is the best ever recorded IMO

yes it's very good, organic, it breathes. The dynamics change naturally, like a living thing.  (Years since I last heard the Schumann fantasy!)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on February 06, 2019, 12:31:20 AM
Quote from: amw on February 03, 2019, 03:32:34 PM
I have complete or partial Beethoven sonata cycles from Paul Badura-Skoda, Michaël Lévinas, András Schiff, Kazune Shimizu, Stewart Goodyear, Michael Korstick, Yusuke Kikuchi, Paul Komen, Stephen Kovacevich, Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Rudolf Serkin, Paavali Jumppanen and Friedrich Gulda along with plenty of individual releases. I would be hard pressed to identify any of them as being from the French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, Dutch or Japanese schools of piano playing on a blind test.

Suspect that knowing the name of the performer can lend a certain bias to proceedings—if I gave many classical music reviewers a recording of the Waldstein and told them it was by Claude-André Baguette, they would probably review it as being a "representative of the French school" and possessing a "Gallic lightness", whereas giving them the same recording under the name of Hans-Jürgen von Sauerkraut would lead to comments about the "Germanic ponderousness" and so on.

Indeed.
Had a, more a less, likewise kind of debate years ago at another forum. Not about Beethoven's piano though, but about Bach's organ.
The 'standard' (and roughly generalizing) north vs south comparison (severe vs lyrical) was proven wrong in that case, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 10, 2019, 05:53:51 AM
On Sudbin's recordings of 110, 111 posted a few pages ago, I've played these a few times. Unfortunately these won't be making my personal list. It's very well played Beethoven, but I didn't glean any great insights. The main highlight for me was an exceptional second movement of 110. The final movement of 110 was taken a bit brisker than I prefer, I like it drawn out just a bit more. For those that place recording quality at the forefront, the recorded sound is just fantastic; a very nice experience hearing this played back at concert levels. At least based off this disc I won't be making any blind purchases on his future Beethoven recordings, but will instead sample them first.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 10, 2019, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: staxomega on February 10, 2019, 05:53:51 AM
On Sudbin's recordings of 110, 111 posted a few pages ago, I've played these a few times. Unfortunately these won't be making my personal list. It's very well played Beethoven, but I didn't glean any great insights. . . . For those that place recording quality at the forefront, the recorded sound is just fantastic; a very nice experience hearing this played back at concert levels.


yes I played it when I saw you were and I feel exactly the same
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 14, 2019, 12:25:23 PM
Listened to Pommier's recording of No 31 and 32, which I enjoyed. Tempos are generally on the slow side in the fast movements, and he uses this to bring clarity to the music. As far as the approach being "light" that was abolished in the finale of the Sonata No 31, where the general treatment of the contrapuntal material is joined by a crushing fortissimo from the left hand. A fine apotheosis to the movement.

[asin]B000EQHV48[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2019, 10:20:40 AM
This is Frederic Lamond's Waldstein, I hadn't heard it before and dug it out after reading this survey from Gramophone, I'm glad to have heard it. I'm going to make time to hear his other Beethoven recordings I think. 

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/beethovens-waldstein-sonata-a-guide-to-the-greatest-recordings?utm_content=Read%20article&utm_campaign=Gramophone%20Newsletter%20-%2018FEB19%20&utm_source=Gramophone&utm_medium=adestra_email&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gramophone.co.uk%2Ffeature%2Fbeethovens-waldstein-sonata-a-guide-to-the-greatest-recordings

https://www.youtube.com/v/VwMqQkkm9Aw
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 19, 2019, 11:26:13 AM
Did a little listening to the sonata No 31, Pommier and Gilels. This sonata threatens to eclipse No 28 as my favorite Beethoven Sonata. I can't get enough of the deceptively simple first movement, and the finale which starts with with a delicately somber mood that blossoms into a noble fugato. The end, with an apotheosis and subsequent wind-down is breathtaking. The little scherzo between is a perfect palate clearer.

I like Pommier's recording. A bit slower than usual, but expressive. Maybe a little more momentum would have been better at the end. Gilel's DG set doesn't do it for me. The first recording of this piece I listened to was Pollini, and it is still my gold standard. I have so many recordings of this work that I want to listen to, Uchida, Brendel, Arrau, Kempff, Levit, Guy, Lortie, oh lord...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on February 19, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 19, 2019, 11:26:13 AM
Did a little listening to the sonata No 31, Pommier and Gilels. This sonata threatens to eclipse No 28 as my favorite Beethoven Sonata. I can't get enough of the deceptively simple first movement, and the finale which starts with with a delicately somber mood that blossoms into a noble fugato. The end, with an apotheosis and subsequent wind-down is breathtaking. The little scherzo between is a perfect palate clearer.

I like Pommier's recording. A bit slower than usual, but expressive. Maybe a little more momentum would have been better at the end. Gilel's DG set doesn't do it for me. The first recording of this piece I listened to was Pollini, and it is still my gold standard. I have so many recordings of this work that I want to listen to, Uchida, Brendel, Arrau, Kempff, Levit, Guy, Lortie, oh lord...

I just listened to this no. 31 -

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71I1Qvy4SAL._SS500_.jpg)

I usually think of Tharaud for French post-Romantic piano works, i.e. Debussy, Ravel; or Baroque music, and wanted to hear how he did Beethoven.  I am lousy with comparing recordings, it sounded okay to me, but I'm curious what others may think who are more familiar with the work than I.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2019, 12:45:40 PM
Quote from: San Antone on February 19, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
I just listened to this no. 31 -

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71I1Qvy4SAL._SS500_.jpg)

I usually think of Tharaud for French post-Romantic piano works, i.e. Debussy, Ravel; or Baroque music, and wanted to hear how he did Beethoven.  I am lousy with comparing recordings, it sounded okay to me, but I'm curious what others may think who are more familiar with the work than I.

It's polyphonic and chamber music scale rather than like a colourful symphony for solo piano. I mean, he doesn't produce a richly coloured blend of sounds, but he does give each voice its character. Good find, it's something interesting.  Very nice piano, a  Steinway model D, beautifully recorded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 19, 2019, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: San Antone on February 19, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
I just listened to this no. 31 -

I usually think of Tharaud for French post-Romantic piano works, i.e. Debussy, Ravel; or Baroque music, and wanted to hear how he did Beethoven.  I am lousy with comparing recordings, it sounded okay to me, but I'm curious what others may think who are more familiar with the work than I.
I enjoyed it. Don't have much detailed comment beyond that.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on February 19, 2019, 07:11:28 PM
Quote from: San Antone on February 19, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
I just listened to this no. 31 -

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71I1Qvy4SAL._SS500_.jpg)

I usually think of Tharaud for French post-Romantic piano works, i.e. Debussy, Ravel; or Baroque music, and wanted to hear how he did Beethoven.  I am lousy with comparing recordings, it sounded okay to me, but I'm curious what others may think who are more familiar with the work than I.

I think he did a good job. But he's the sort of pianist one wishes to record stuff that's not recorded by Every Important Pianist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2019, 08:37:50 PM
Quote from: JBS on February 19, 2019, 07:11:28 PM
I think he did a good job. But he's the sort of pianist one wishes to record stuff that's not recorded by Every Important Pianist.

That was my reaction when I saw the post about it, but I think there are  enough ideas in there to make me glad he spent time on these sonatas. Maybe, I only listened once and that was after quite a bit of wine, so I could be completely wrong!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 20, 2019, 01:22:23 AM
I listened to his 109 and it didn't make a strong impression on me one way or the other.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 20, 2019, 07:33:23 AM
Quote from: amw on February 20, 2019, 01:22:23 AM
I listened to his 109 and it didn't make a strong impression on me one way or the other.

Phew, that's a relief. I don't have to get it, then...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 20, 2019, 10:18:16 AM
Quote from: San Antone on February 19, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
I just listened to this no. 31 -

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71I1Qvy4SAL._SS500_.jpg)

I usually think of Tharaud for French post-Romantic piano works, i.e. Debussy, Ravel; or Baroque music, and wanted to hear how he did Beethoven.  I am lousy with comparing recordings, it sounded okay to me, but I'm curious what others may think who are more familiar with the work than I.

Quite wonderful, I think. The little things in it. I've yet to deep-dive, and it ain't Pollini... but I think this is special - in the Variation movement of 111 esp.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 20, 2019, 11:10:45 AM

Quote from: amw on February 20, 2019, 01:22:23 AM
I listened to his 109 and it didn't make a strong impression on me one way or the other.

I think I agree with this.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 20, 2019, 10:18:16 AM
Quite wonderful, I think. The little things in it. I've yet to deep-dive, and it ain't Pollini... but I think this is special - in the Variation movement of 111 esp.

I think I agree with this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 20, 2019, 11:22:04 AM
Quote from: San Antone on February 19, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
I just listened to this no. 31 -

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71I1Qvy4SAL._SS500_.jpg)

I usually think of Tharaud for French post-Romantic piano works, i.e. Debussy, Ravel; or Baroque music, and wanted to hear how he did Beethoven.  I am lousy with comparing recordings, it sounded okay to me, but I'm curious what others may think who are more familiar with the work than I.

There are so, so, so many recordings of this music. I'm surprised there is more money to be made recording it again, rather than recording something that is not well represented in the catalog.

I'm wondering now how the piece comes across on a fortepiano. I should dig up my Brautigam disc and give it a spin. I've listened to the set through once and don't specifically remember No 31, although I have an overall very positive impression.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 20, 2019, 12:57:01 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 20, 2019, 11:22:04 AM
I'm wondering now how the piece comes across on a fortepiano. I should dig up my Brautigam disc and give it a spin. I've listened to the set through once and don't specifically remember No 31, although I have an overall very positive impression.
Oh goodness, wait until you hear the Penelope Crawford album. One of my "desert island discs" across all classical music. She is so little-known but such a special artist. Here's Todd's review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg576530/topicseen.html#msg576530), and once I got to interview her (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 20, 2019, 01:22:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2019, 12:57:01 PM
Oh goodness, wait until you hear the Penelope Crawford album. One of my "desert island discs" across all classical music. She is so little-known but such a special artist. Here's Todd's review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg576530/topicseen.html#msg576530), and once I got to interview her (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm).

Does anyone sell it as a lossless download? Presto has some of there other recordings, but not that one, apparently.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 20, 2019, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2019, 12:57:01 PM
Oh goodness, wait until you hear the Penelope Crawford album. One of my "desert island discs" across all classical music. She is so little-known but such a special artist. Here's Todd's review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg576530/topicseen.html#msg576530), and once I got to interview her (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm).

What do you think of Tom Beghin's Hearing Machine recording? 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 20, 2019, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 20, 2019, 01:22:43 PM
Does anyone sell it as a lossless download? Presto has some of there other recordings, but not that one, apparently.
Qobuz has it but not sure if it's accessible in the States. The Presto download is located here (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8046130--magnificent-landscapes) but may be subject to similar geographic restrictions, I'm not sure.

I'm not a fan of the Beghin recording personally—for fortepianos I usually seem to end up listening to Alexei Lubimov or Paul Badura-Skoda.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2019, 03:33:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2019, 12:57:01 PM
Oh goodness, wait until you hear the Penelope Crawford album. One of my "desert island discs" across all classical music. She is so little-known but such a special artist. Here's Todd's review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg576530/topicseen.html#msg576530), and once I got to interview her (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm).
I didn't like that one. Couldn't get past the sound of the instrument and her tendency to start and stop all the time (or another way of describing it is through small pauses or hiccups) making things too abrupt in places and losing flow.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 05:51:40 AM
Quote from: amw on February 20, 2019, 11:33:02 PM
Qobuz has it but not sure if it's accessible in the States. The Presto download is located here (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8046130--magnificent-landscapes) but may be subject to similar geographic restrictions, I'm not sure.

I'm not a fan of the Beghin recording personally—for fortepianos I usually seem to end up listening to Alexei Lubimov or Paul Badura-Skoda.

Someone, a "real" pianist, once said to me that the thing to hear is op 111 on a christofori piano, the trills, the trills. I've never heard it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 05:52:27 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2019, 03:33:13 AM
I didn't like that one. Couldn't get past the sound of the instrument and her tendency to start and stop all the time (or another way of describing it is through small pauses or hiccups) making things too abrupt in places and losing flow.

I feel the opposite, I wasn't impressed because she doesn't hiccup enough!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 21, 2019, 06:11:25 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2019, 03:33:13 AM
I didn't like that one. Couldn't get past the sound of the instrument and her tendency to start and stop all the time (or another way of describing it is through small pauses or hiccups) making things too abrupt in places and losing flow.
Huh! I'm usually very sensitive to stop-and-start and small pauses - I hate it - but never noticed it with her.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 21, 2019, 06:24:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 05:51:40 AM
Someone, a "real" pianist, once said to me that the thing to hear is op 111 on a christofori piano, the trills, the trills. I've never heard it.
Me neither—and nor did Beethoven, since he never owned or played a Cristofori.

(I mean he also never owned a Steinway, not that that stops anyone though.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 21, 2019, 06:38:23 AM
I listened to Stewart Goodyear's set "The Middle Sonatas", am I crazy to think he reminds me of Rudolf Serkin in many places? He has that "angularity" to his playing where it sounds like he is reaching or climbing and he can change directions on a dime, this is exciting playing. His liner notes are excellent as well, and written with a youthful affectation for the scores (his note on wondering how Op. 15 would fit in Disney's Fantasia makes complete sense to me). Where I am quite disappointed with his set and what struck it off my list of keeper sets is he plays the slow movements too briskly, like in the Adagio of Op. 31/1 or Minuetto of 31/3 where I would find someone like Lucchesini beyond human. This turns many of the sonatas into a 1 dimensional affair, almost like he has to build himself as some concert virtuoso. I would be interested if he revisits the cycle later in his career.

The other cycle I have been sampling is Peter Takacs, this I have been quite impressed by, I'll write some more later.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2019, 07:08:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 21, 2019, 06:11:25 AM
Huh! I'm usually very sensitive to stop-and-start and small pauses - I hate it - but never noticed it with her.
I feel it more strongly, for example, in the beginning of Op. 109.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 21, 2019, 07:29:10 AM
One person can't bear the performance because of the starts and stops, another found it boring because there were no starts and stops, one person says I must hear it before I die, another characterizes it as a turd. Seems to support my dictum, the main content of any review of a recordings consists of the fact that the recording exists.

Overall, I feel that I want to hear this recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2019, 08:33:27 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 21, 2019, 07:29:10 AM
One person can't bear the performance because of the starts and stops, another found it boring because there were no starts and stops, one person says I must hear it before I die, another characterizes it as a turd. Seems to support my dictum, the main content of any review of a recordings consists of the fact that the recording exists.

Overall, I feel that I want to hear this recording.
This is why good or bad is irrelevant, and the reason given the more important aspect. There are time when people love something to bits, but when I see why they loved it, I know to stay clear.

In the case of this recording, she has the technique, so as long as the instrument used doesn't put you off, I say go for it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 21, 2019, 08:50:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 05:51:40 AM
Someone, a "real" pianist, once said to me that the thing to hear is op 111 on a christofori piano, the trills, the trills. I've never heard it.

For me only Pollini pulled of the trills convincingly.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2019, 08:33:27 AM
This is why good or bad is irrelevant, and the reason given the more important aspect. There are time when people love something to bits, but when I see why they loved it, I know to stay clear.

In this case even the reason given was contradictory!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 09:26:02 AM
My feeling is (prove me wrong please) that Crawford plays the old piano like a modern instrument, it's a middle of the road modern piano conservatory performance on a fortepiano, that's probably why some people like it, they're in a familiar space with the slight twist of old piano tones. 

There isn't a sense of a creative interaction between music, instrument and performer   -- contrast Lubimov or Beghin.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2019, 07:08:13 AM
I feel it more strongly, for example, in the beginning of Op. 109.

Yes, but I think you're very sensitive about this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 21, 2019, 09:33:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 09:26:02 AM
There isn't a sense of the instrument inspiring a creative interaction between music, instrument and performer  -- contrast Lubimov or Beghin.

Precisely my sentiments too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 21, 2019, 09:34:22 AM
...and what of Brautigam?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 10:02:25 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2019, 12:57:01 PM
Oh goodness, wait until you hear the Penelope Crawford album. One of my "desert island discs" across all classical music. She is so little-known but such a special artist. Here's Todd's review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg576530/topicseen.html#msg576530), and once I got to interview her (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm).

I would agree with Brian. This is a terrific version of 109-110-111, and she has another disc with several of the other lates. One of my favorite Beethoven piano CDs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 21, 2019, 06:11:25 AM
Huh! I'm usually very sensitive to stop-and-start and small pauses - I hate it - but never noticed it with her.

It bothers me only before the very final chord of 110. I want that conclusion to drive forward in tempo. I may even rip the disc and edit that part to my liking.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 10:13:34 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
I may even rip the disc and edit that part to my liking.

Very good. You're a postmodern listener.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 21, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
It bothers me only before the very final chord of 110. I want that conclusion to drive forward in tempo. I may even rip the disc and edit that part to my liking.
Oh, you're right, she definitely does it there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 21, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
Quote from: staxomega on February 21, 2019, 06:38:23 AM
I listened to Stewart Goodyear's set "The Middle Sonatas", am I crazy to think he reminds me of Rudolf Serkin in many places? He has that "angularity" to his playing where it sounds like he is reaching or climbing and he can change directions on a dime, this is exciting playing. His liner notes are excellent as well, and written with a youthful affectation for the scores (his note on wondering how Op. 15 would fit in Disney's Fantasia makes complete sense to me). Where I am quite disappointed with his set and what struck it off my list of keeper sets is he plays the slow movements too briskly, like in the Adagio of Op. 31/1 or Minuetto of 31/3 where I would find someone like Lucchesini beyond human. This turns many of the sonatas into a 1 dimensional affair, almost like he has to build himself as some concert virtuoso. I would be interested if he revisits the cycle later in his career.

It's a very good set, and performing the slow movements fairly moderately is much more historically accurate (& potentially more effective). My main criticism of the set & feeling of 1 dimensionality comes from the dynamics and colours I think, his playing doesn't seem to have the kind of differentiation and contrast of some other pianists. And he's fairly metronomic but hardly the worst offender in that regard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2019, 10:13:34 AM
Very good. You're a postmodern listener.

I like being up to date.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 22, 2019, 02:19:32 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 06:03:55 PM
I like being up to date.

Toying with reality is very current.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: Madiel on February 22, 2019, 02:19:32 PM
Toying with reality is very current.

The recording producer/editor does it, why not us?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 22, 2019, 04:08:32 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 02:20:49 PM
The recording producer/editor does it, why not us?

I could write a couple of pages on why not. Some of which would discuss moral rights, and most of which would be centred on why everybody believing they can do everybody else's job is one of the great dangers of modern technology, but it would probably divert into a discussion of how we get Claudio Colombo attempting to drown the internet in utterly vapid "performances" of nearly everything in the repertoire.

But so long as it's purely for your own private use, go ahead and shape your little piece of the universe.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on February 23, 2019, 02:07:34 AM
Once we have bought a recording (vinyl, CD or download) we think of it as being 'my property' - as in, "I have Klemperer's Beethoven Pastoral Symphony".  As such we can do what we like with it.  I can think of many multi-movement musical works where I habitually skip one or more of the movements.  It's an advantage of being a home (or mobile) listener rather than being a concertgoer.

Returning to those Crawford recordings - late Beethoven and major-key Beethoven generally is not really my thing, but this discussion did pique my interest and I've really enjoyed what I've listened to so far, of the two Crawford collections of late sonatas.  Especially No.27 Op.90 which was music I'm not familiar with at all.  But generally I really like the light, somewhat backward-looking feel of what I've heard.  I would call it an antidote to the late sonatas which generally are too stodgy for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2019, 02:31:26 AM
And for me, not finding much of interest in Crawford, I went back to this recording, with great pleasure

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ufpw0remL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
aukhawk's comments above made me think about how the major sonatas are overplayed and considered echt-Beethoven, while the others are neglected and considered somehow inferior. So my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing? do you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas? Which and why? (Okay, that's four questions, actually).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 23, 2019, 02:46:32 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 23, 2019, 02:07:34 AM
I can think of many multi-movement musical works where I habitually skip one or more of the movements.  It's an advantage of being a home (or mobile) listener rather than being a concertgoer.

And again, I can think of a lot I would say against such a practice. People now tend to deplore the 19th century practice of shuffling movements between symphonies, something which definitely happened to Beethoven. Your habit is basically no different.

You can do it if you like. Just don't kid yourself that you're listening to what the composer wanted you to listen to. Or the performers for that matter. And recognise that you are distorting all sorts of things about tempo and proportion and key relationship that were planned.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 23, 2019, 02:57:50 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
aukhawk's comments above made me think about how the major sonatas are overplayed and considered echt-Beethoven, while the others are neglected and considered somehow inferior. So my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing? do you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas? Which and why? (Okay, that's four questions, actually).
I mean at this point all the sonatas are frequently played & recorded; outside the famous "name" sonatas (Appassionata, Pastorale, Hammerklavier etc) and the last three I like Op.2/2, 7, 10/1-3, 31/3, 78, 90, 101 the most. The last five are several notches qualitatively above the rest, but only in that Beethoven lavished significantly more time and care on them than the remainder, to the point of giving each of the last three its own opus number rather than publishing as a set like Op.2, 10, 14, 27 or 31. So this belief about their greater importance comes from Beethoven himself & is how he wished them to be perceived—but quite honestly in none of those five sonatas could he achieve the effortless grace and humour of a 31/3 or a 10/2 & he probably didn't want to.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 23, 2019, 03:01:01 AM
Also it must be said from the perspective of posterity that the middle period sonatas were much more influential than the late ones, sometimes to a very obvious extent—compare 31/3/i to Schumann's Op.41/3/i for example.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 03:02:49 AM
Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 02:57:50 AM
I mean at this point all the sonatas are frequently played & recorded; outside the famous "name" sonatas (Appassionata, Pastorale, Hammerklavier etc) and the last three I like Op.2/2, 7, 10/1-3, 31/3, 78, 90, 101 the most. The last five are several notches qualitatively above the rest, but only in that Beethoven lavished significantly more time and care on them than the remainder, to the point of giving each of the last three its own opus number rather than publishing as a set like Op.2, 10, 14, 27 or 31. So this belief about their greater importance comes from Beethoven himself & is how he wished them to be perceived—but quite honestly in none of those five sonatas could he achieve the effortless grace and humour of a 31/3 or a 10/2 & he probably didn't want to.

Thanks.

Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 03:01:01 AM
Also it must be said from the perspective of posterity that the middle period sonatas were much more influential than the late ones, sometimes to a very obvious extent—compare 31/3/i to Schumann's Op.41/3/i for example.

And thanks again, will do it after dinner.  :) Any particular recordings you'd recommend?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 04:44:33 AM
Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 03:01:01 AM
compare 31/3/i to Schumann's Op.41/3/i for example.

I just did. You do have a point, the latter sounds like a string quartet version of the former,  at least as far as the first 3 minutes of each work go.  :)

Now it makes me wonder: is is just coincidence or a conscious choice of Schumann?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQerQcLGHp3dgpUKD-iPmOTwdN9179c_Pe-UGY7zY6aKsvEiOvt) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413261NKWKL.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 23, 2019, 04:49:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AMSo my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing?


I'm not sure what is meant by "great ones".  All or most of them are great.


Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AMdo you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas?


Yes.


Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
Which and why?


Various sonatas for various reasons.  I may have posted on it before.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 04:53:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 23, 2019, 04:49:06 AM

I'm not sure what is meant by "great ones".  All or most of them are great.



Yes.



Various sonatas for various reasons.  I may have posted on it before.

You know, I applaud this approach in the other thread, where it is entirely appropriate. In this one I find it unnecessarily supercilious --- I am here to learn and discover, not to showcase my alleged, yet inexistent, knowledge or moral superiority.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 23, 2019, 05:11:07 AM
Quote from: amw on February 21, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
It's a very good set, and performing the slow movements fairly moderately is much more historically accurate (& potentially more effective). My main criticism of the set & feeling of 1 dimensionality comes from the dynamics and colours I think, his playing doesn't seem to have the kind of differentiation and contrast of some other pianists. And he's fairly metronomic but hardly the worst offender in that regard.

I can see that on the color and dynamics, but I didn't think he was that bad in this respect as that is something that would quickly have it on non consideration list and I did go back and forth on Goodyear's for some time. For instance on color this is one area where I feel like the very well loved Gulda Amadeo is lacking so it's one I'm personally not a particularly big fan of, as unpopular as this opinion may be. With some ~ 15 cycles complete/near incomplete and asking myself would I really want to revisit a cycle often (or even a few times if being lenient) I'm starting to be more stringent on my requirements for keeping something.
Edit- just to give some basis for where my tastes tend to lean for complete/incomplete these are the ones I would want to take with me to a desert island- Annie Fischer, Andrea Lucchesini, Backhaus mono, Rudolf Serkin, Eric Heidsieck and combination of Arrau's EMI/American Decca or Philips analog.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2019, 05:58:49 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
aukhawk's comments above made me think about how the major sonatas are overplayed and considered echt-Beethoven, while the others are neglected and considered somehow inferior. So my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing? do you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas? Which and why? (Okay, that's four questions, actually).

I find it all depends on performance, sometimes recordings capture my imagination. This one, for example, has op 14/2 and I love it, it really touches me.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31VEG67PGSL.jpg)

And this op 22 by Pommier

https://youtube.com/v/RG2QfSC2J-Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 23, 2019, 06:20:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 04:44:33 AM
I just did. You do have a point, the latter sounds like a string quartet version of the former,  at least as far as the first 3 minutes of each work go.  :)

Now it makes me wonder: is is just coincidence or a conscious choice of Schumann?
I can't see how it wouldn't be a conscious choice—Schumann was after all married to one of the first & best known exponents of the Beethoven piano sonatas in the concert hall. (And had himself hoped to be one but it didn't work out.)

Quote
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQerQcLGHp3dgpUKD-iPmOTwdN9179c_Pe-UGY7zY6aKsvEiOvt) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413261NKWKL.jpg)
These are pretty good recordings btw.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 06:28:09 AM
Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 06:20:05 AM
I can't see how it wouldn't be a conscious choice—Schumann was after all married to one of the first & best known exponents of the Beethoven piano sonatas in the concert hall. (And had himself hoped to be one but it didn't work out.)

An interesting idea to explore further. Many thanks for pointing me to a very strange beast --- Beethoven's Op. 31 / 3. I mean, a scherzo and a menuet in the same sonata? And am I alone in hearing thematic unity between the movements?

Quote
These are pretty good recordings btw.

Thanks, I picked the first ones of my library that came under my mouse's click.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 23, 2019, 06:34:20 AM
Quote from: staxomega on February 23, 2019, 05:11:07 AM
I can see that on the color and dynamics, but I didn't think he was that bad in this respect as that is something that would quickly have it on non consideration list and I did go back and forth on Goodyear's for some time. For instance on color this is one area where I feel like the very well loved Gulda Amadeo is lacking so it's one I'm personally not a particularly big fan of, as unpopular as this opinion may be.
I'd agree with that, although I still retain the Gulda set & think it has virtues despite that. Similar w Goodyear.

Quote
Edit- just to give some basis for where my tastes tend to lean for complete/incomplete these are the ones I would want to take with me to a desert island- Annie Fischer, Andrea Lucchesini, Backhaus mono, Rudolf Serkin, Eric Heidsieck and combination of Arrau's EMI/American Decca or Philips analog.
& to give a basis for my tastes, I would bring to the desert island Paul Badura-Skoda's Naïve Astrée period instruments set, Michaël Lévinas's Adès/Accord set & a bunch of individual recordings/volumes (Peter Serkin 27/28/29/30/31/32, Maria Tipo 3/21/30, Olga Pashchenko 21/23/26, Pi-Hsien Chen 27/32, Michael Korstick 15 + variations, András Schiff 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8, Paavali Jumppanen 1/2/3, etc)

which probably makes me a hipster of some kind, unfortunately
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 23, 2019, 09:58:37 AM
Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 03:01:01 AM
Also it must be said from the perspective of posterity that the middle period sonatas were much more influential than the late ones, sometimes to a very obvious extent—compare 31/3/i to Schumann's Op.41/3/i for example.

In the first movement of Faschingsschwank aus Wien, a Rondo, several episodes are supposedly paying homage to, I think, Chopin, Mendelssohn and Beethoven (and in the last episode the Marseillaise enters). I am still not quite sure which pieces are quoted, but I think the Beethoven homage is inspired by the Trio of the Menuet of op.31/3. Never thought about the string quartet, though.

As far as I am concerned, I like several supposedly "smaller" sonatas a lot, e.g. op.2/2 or op.14/2, even the "sonatina" op.79. And I am not that fond of a few rather famous ones, e.g. I don't like the Waldstein as much as I probably should. And about the  "funeral march" op. 26 I have the feeling that Beethoven should have written a few more variations, published it as a variation set and skipped the rest...  :P Although my least favorites are probably op.54 and op.22.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 10:06:24 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 23, 2019, 09:58:37 AM
I don't like the Waldstein as much as I probably should.

Why are you supposed to like it that much?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on February 23, 2019, 10:44:09 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81GrAl97duL._SX355_.jpg)

BEETHOVEN  Piano Sonatas Op. 109, 110 & 111  Alexei Lubimov




I'm not entirely sold on the sound of the piano.  There is a dull somewhat muffled sound that at first I thought something was amiss with my speakers until I noticed that he is playing a period keyboard.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 23, 2019, 05:32:05 PM
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 06:28:09 AM
An interesting idea to explore further. Many thanks for pointing me to a very strange beast --- Beethoven's Op. 31 / 3. I mean, a scherzo and a menuet in the same sonata?
Definitely something Beethoven did on a few occasions—also the Piano Trio Op.70/2, another somewhat "underrated" work that's a personal favourite of mine (prefer it to the Archduke or Ghost Trios), the 1st and 8th Symphonies, the C minor string quartet Op.18/4...

Quote
And am I alone in hearing thematic unity between the movements?
I don't think so but I don't have any sources offhand that analyse the sonata in detail.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on February 24, 2019, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 06:28:09 AM
Many thanks for pointing me to a very strange beast --- Beethoven's Op. 31 / 3. I mean, a scherzo and a menuet in the same sonata?

Yes, but note, that this scherzo is written in sonata form and contains no trio. So formally it is not a "true" Beethovenian scherzo. He just called it a scherzo in order to define the character of the music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on February 24, 2019, 02:50:25 AM
I'm surprised that amongst all recommendations on period instruments, Paul Komen (Globe) hasn't been mentioned...yet.  :)

Passionate, straightforward and rhythmically astute playing. Beautiful instruments. For some inexplicable reason the series was aborted after 5 volumes. Still plenty to enjoy, tough.  :) The albums are on Spotify and available as downloads.

On period instruments I also like Badura-Skoda, which I only know in digital form - eagerly awaiting a CD reissue....

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 24, 2019, 03:30:04 AM
Quote from: Que on February 24, 2019, 02:50:25 AM
I'm surprised that amongst all recommendations on period instruments, Paul Komen (Globe) hasn't been mentioned...yet.  :)

Passionate, straightforward and rhythmically astute playing. Beautiful instruments. For some inexplicable the series was aborted after 5 volumes. Still plenty to enjoy, tough.  :) The albums are on Spotify and available as downloads.

On period instruments I also like Badura-Skoda, which I only know in digital form - eagerly awaiting a CD reissue....

Q

Yes I tend to agree with you about this, I also like the way he's interested in exploiting and exploring the possibilities of the instrument too, he uses the asperities.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on February 24, 2019, 04:45:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 24, 2019, 03:30:04 AM
Yes I tend to agree with you about this, I also like the way he's interested in exploiting and exploring the possibilities of the instrument too, he uses the asperities.

Agreed.  :) His playing shows that the instrument is an important factor in the performance (and the composition).

The instruments he used are from the Edwin Beunk collection (https://www.fortepiano.nl).

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 24, 2019, 06:22:59 AM
Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 06:34:20 AM
I'd agree with that, although I still retain the Gulda set & think it has virtues despite that. Similar w Goodyear.
& to give a basis for my tastes, I would bring to the desert island Paul Badura-Skoda's Naïve Astrée period instruments set, Michaël Lévinas's Adès/Accord set & a bunch of individual recordings/volumes (Peter Serkin 27/28/29/30/31/32, Maria Tipo 3/21/30, Olga Pashchenko 21/23/26, Pi-Hsien Chen 27/32, Michael Korstick 15 + variations, András Schiff 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8, Paavali Jumppanen 1/2/3, etc)

which probably makes me a hipster of some kind, unfortunately

I didn't include all the individual CDs in my reference list, I somehow keep this straight in my head :) At some point I should write these out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 24, 2019, 06:45:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2019, 05:58:49 AM
I find it all depends on performance, sometimes recordings capture my imagination. This one, for example, has op 14/2 and I love it, it really touches me.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31VEG67PGSL.jpg)

And this op 22 by Pommier

https://youtube.com/v/RG2QfSC2J-Q

Your post reminded me of my second favorite performance of the Hammerklavier (Gulda first)

[asin]B00004Y6OG[/asin]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 24, 2019, 08:22:17 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 23, 2019, 02:46:32 AM
And again, I can think of a lot I would say against such a practice. People now tend to deplore the 19th century practice of shuffling movements between symphonies, something which definitely happened to Beethoven. Your habit is basically no different.

You can do it if you like. Just don't kid yourself that you're listening to what the composer wanted you to listen to. Or the performers for that matter. And recognise that you are distorting all sorts of things about tempo and proportion and key relationship that were planned.

I sometimes listen to individual movements. Of course I don't "kid myself" that I am listening to what the composer wanted me to hear. I do this precisely because I don't like what the composer wanted me to hear. I don't do it that much, mostly in Mahler, and mostly to avoid the vocal movements. I usually take the 2nd, 3rd, 4th symphonies only in parts.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 24, 2019, 09:39:34 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 24, 2019, 02:27:12 AM
Yes, but note, that this scherzo is written in sonata form and contains no trio. So formally it is not a "true" Beethovenian scherzo. He just called it a scherzo in order to define the character of the music.
This is the same in op.18/4 and the 1st and 8th symphony. Technically these are all in place of slow movements. They are in a contrasting key and sonata form (or at least not in the tripartite form with trio) while the next movement in these pieces is in the main key and with a trio section.
Still. except for the andante of the 1st symphony that is somewhat in between slowish and scherzando they don't have the character of a slow movement (although the one from op.31/3 certainly feels the liveliest of all of them). In op.18/4 and the 8th symphony no movement is slow, in op.31/3 the menuet in moderate tempo almost works like a slow movement.
Scherzo/Scherzando refers at least as much to the character as to the form. The typical form is usually identical with a menuet or other dance forms, so this is not the only criterion for a Beethovenian scherzo.

Earlier, there is Haydn's c# minor sonata that has a scherzo/scherzando in a contrasting key as 2nd movement and a menuet as finale.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on February 24, 2019, 02:43:50 PM
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 04:53:12 AM
You know, I applaud this approach in the other thread, where it is entirely appropriate. In this one I find it unnecessarily supercilious --- I am here to learn and discover, not to showcase my alleged, yet inexistent, knowledge or moral superiority.

The fun thing is, that on f.i. Pollini's twofer of so-called 'Favourite' ones, op. 79 in G Major was also included.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Favourite-Pathtique-Moonlight-Appassionata/dp/B0052ZA7RO/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Just a small sonata without pretentions, but damn (oops, did I just write that?), do I like it very very much! The slow movement is short, but breathtakingly beautiful.
Here is a clip of op. 79 with Barenboim live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgPIARFhMfA

So, in a way, Todd has a point: all 32 sonatas 'mit opuszahl' are great. Of course, op. 49 is a still young 18th century Beethoven, and, personally, I'm not really fond op op. 31/1, with the exception though of the Rondo Finale. But that's probably my fault, because apparently I don't get Beethoven's sense of humour. All three of op. 31 are still well worth exploring, because it represents the 'complete' Beethoven of that time (early 19th century): the transition from 'early' to 'middle period' Beethoven. 'Der Sturm' (The Tempest) op. 31/2, is one of those so-called great ones, but op. 31/3 is awesome, too.

I recall 'exploring' the sonatas piece by piece, and in the end I had to conclude, with Todd, that they're all great. Some are greater than others, but hey... nothing wrong with that. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on February 25, 2019, 12:12:13 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 24, 2019, 08:22:17 AM
I sometimes listen to individual movements. Of course I don't "kid myself" that I am listening to what the composer wanted me to hear. I do this precisely because I don't like what the composer wanted me to hear. I don't do it that much, mostly in Mahler, and mostly to avoid the vocal movements. I usually take the 2nd, 3rd, 4th symphonies only in parts.

I find that over time when I think I don't think I like part of what a composer wanted me to hear, but I keep listening to it, I usually end up appreciating it more.

Note that this is not a statement that I should persist with things that I don't respond to at all. But when we're talking about a composer I generally do respond to, and a work where I already like parts of it, it seems inherently more likely that the issue is in me not "getting" something initially rather than the composer having suddenly had an off moment.

Cf A considerable amount of the work of Vagn Holmboe who I regularly nominate as one of my favourite composers. There have been any number of his works that I haven't initially liked in full, but I've sensed there's something there worth exploring. If I decided to just avoid those bits, they would never click.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 23, 2019, 05:56:41 AM
(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/95/6/6/755.jpg)


Another new cycle starts.  Guessing this is a 2027 completion.  I'm excited.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 13, 2019, 01:29:40 PM
No announcement of recordings yet, but Dasol Kim is performing the entire cycle over the next four years.  Hopefully, that means a cycle will be recorded in time for 2027.  The benefit for me is that I get to attend a recital next January where he will be playing the last three sonatas. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: J.A.W. on April 15, 2019, 08:41:06 AM
Sony will release Igor Levit's complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas in September 2019. Looking forward to that cycle, I immensely enjoyed his recording of the last three sonatas a few years ago.

[asin]B07PHKPH5Q[/asin]


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 15, 2019, 01:26:51 PM
Oooh! That is major news, even if I've not yet become convinced by any of Levit's recordings to date. He is certainly marketed as, and seen as by some critics I admire, a super-huge artistic talent. Bring it on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2019, 01:31:53 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 15, 2019, 01:26:51 PM
Oooh! That is major news, even if I've not yet become convinced by any of Levit's recordings to date. He is certainly marketed as, and seen as by some critics I admire, a super-huge artistic talent. Bring it on.

I liked his recording of the late sonatas. But I realize my listening to Beethoven is so skewed towards his late period that complete sonata sets are sort of superfluous to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on April 15, 2019, 02:05:55 PM
I assume the late sonatas are the same recordings as the ones already released? Not sure this will be of interest to me either but almost every professional track pianist I know thinks they're great so I am probably the one having the wrong reaction. (I found his Beethoven anonymous and a little anodyne, if beautifully played.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on April 15, 2019, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: amw on April 15, 2019, 02:05:55 PM
I assume the late sonatas are the same recordings as the ones already released? Not sure this will be of interest to me either but almost every professional track pianist I know thinks they're great so I am probably the one having the wrong reaction. (I found his Beethoven anonymous and a little anodyne, if beautifully played.)

Well, I share your view.  Anonymous is spot on, I think.

Despite this I shall probably get the complete set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on April 15, 2019, 02:37:23 PM
Just relistened to his Op. 101. The late trio of 109-111 was fairly anonymous, but very competent; 101 is super eccentric, but generally in the sense of going soft and quiet in places where you might not expect. Bit of rubato in first movement. I thought some of his "poetic" touches were precious and overthought, but I really dug the way he deliberately monotoned his way through the finale fugue bits at an unchanging dynamic level, as if playing some sternly sexy harpsichord.

Edit: wtf I sound like Mandryka
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2019, 03:14:28 PM
Reviewed my notes on Levitt's set of late sonatas, "assured and elegant." Then I listened to Pollini, which seemed to be in a class above.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 16, 2019, 01:51:43 AM
I saw most of the cycle he did in London, anonymous it wasn't, it was more like the emmotional effusion of an alpha-male. Muscular,  marked dynamic and tempo changes. Flashy technique.

Horrible, but maybe that's Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on April 16, 2019, 02:59:28 AM
I hope not. It's also possible he's Pogorelichified at some point in the last decade or so.

While I'm here: does anyone rate the Angela Hewitt cycle? It's on Hyperion, so can't be streamed, but the penultimate volume is coming next month with the last (Op.106 and 111, presumably) to follow in 2020.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on April 16, 2019, 11:44:02 AM
Quote from: amw on April 16, 2019, 02:59:28 AM
I hope not. It's also possible he's Pogorelichified at some point in the last decade or so.

While I'm here: does anyone rate the Angela Hewitt cycle? It's on Hyperion, so can't be streamed, but the penultimate volume is coming next month with the last (Op.106 and 111, presumably) to follow in 2020.

Remember what you said about Levitt?
Quote(I found his Beethoven anonymous and a little anodyne, if beautifully played.)

I think it applies to Hewitt rather well.  (That won't keep me from getting the rest of her cycle.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on April 16, 2019, 11:48:41 AM
That's what I suspected yes, probably why I thought of them together.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 16, 2019, 12:37:44 PM
Quote from: amw on April 16, 2019, 02:59:28 AM
I hope not. It's also possible he's Pogorelichified at some point in the last decade or so.

While I'm here: does anyone rate the Angela Hewitt cycle? It's on Hyperion, so can't be streamed, but the penultimate volume is coming next month with the last (Op.106 and 111, presumably) to follow in 2020.

I like Hewitt's cycle (the parts I've listened to). It is just what you'd expect given her other non-Bach recordings - technically assured and emphasizes the texture of the music rather than histrionic gestures.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: rickardg on April 17, 2019, 06:07:45 AM
Sorry for being semi-off-topic, but are these

https://www.amazon.com/Friedrich-Gulda-Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B07N46SYZF

Gulda's Amadeo recordings in some strange digital release?

The reason I ask is that I'd like to stream them and none of the instantly recognisable releases seem to be available.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 17, 2019, 08:57:44 AM
Quote from: rickardg on April 17, 2019, 06:07:45 AM
Sorry for being semi-off-topic, but are these

https://www.amazon.com/Friedrich-Gulda-Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B07N46SYZF

Gulda's Amadeo recordings in some strange digital release?

The reason I ask is that I'd like to stream them and none of the instantly recognisable releases seem to be available.

My Brilliant Box (Amadeo recordings) says recorded in 1967. This link you provided says January 1966. However, the timings are almost the same, so they could be the same. Maybe they altered the date to disguise where they "borrowed" them from?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: rickardg on April 18, 2019, 12:58:05 AM
Quote from: George on April 17, 2019, 08:57:44 AM
My Brilliant Box (Amadeo recordings) says recorded in 1967. This link you provided says January 1966. However, the timings are almost the same, so they could be the same. Maybe they altered the date to disguise where they "borrowed" them from?

Thanks for your time, George.

Maybe I'll have to bite the bullet and get the Decca Eloquence release instead, but I don't really have space or time for 12 more CDs... :P

Also, it says "Remastered" on the cover, I can't help wondering: better or worse?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 18, 2019, 07:52:15 AM
Quote from: rickardg on April 18, 2019, 12:58:05 AM
Thanks for your time, George.

Maybe I'll have to bite the bullet and get the Decca Eloquence release instead, but I don't really have space or time for 12 more CDs... :P

Also, it says "Remastered" on the cover, I can't help wondering: better or worse?

I have both; a result of geographic displacement. Never did a side-by-side but wasn't disappointed by the Decca after having discovered these on the Brilliant set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 20, 2019, 05:22:50 AM
Quote from: J.A.W. on April 15, 2019, 08:41:06 AM
[asin]B07PHKPH5Q[/asin]


Should be better than Rasch or Williams. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 20, 2019, 11:25:44 PM
Quote from: Todd on April 20, 2019, 05:22:50 AM

Should be better than Rasch or Williams.

Just too hard to imagine how it wouldn't be better than Rasch, which was such a full-on crashing bore.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 21, 2019, 12:21:55 AM
 I think there's something very distinctive about Levit, and I don't see why amw and Premont and Brian are saying he's anonymous in 109-111: he can play in a way which is at one and the same time muscular and light, sprightly. This combination of strength and playfulness is not a bad way of making sense of Beethoven.

In truth though I'd heard him in concert with a Beethoven cycle I'd never heard the recordings. If anything, I've enjoyed the recordings more than the concert and I'm looking forward to the release.

For what it's worth, I'll mention that Levit was in one of the worst recitals, the most boring recitals, I've ever had the displeasure to be at: it was the two Schubert piano trios.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on April 21, 2019, 03:30:41 AM
I went back to listen to Op. 106, and compared it with a pianist with a very similar interpretation (Jean-Frédéric Neuburger). In the first movement Levit never gives the music a real sense of forward motion, nor does he let it breathe in the more relaxed moments; Neuburger does both. This is not to say that his playing is metronomic it just lacks a certain inner life. There's not much snap to the rhythms, which are sometimes fudged, and there's also some sloppy voicing (e.g. not bringing out the top note in the opening motive) although the playing is overall technically superior to Neuburger's, especially the softer playing. I guess this is a subjective reaction for me personally but I don't get any sense of joy or passion from the movement. In the scherzo the main thing I can fault Levit for is his phrasing—he puts an accent on every bar without fail, and the accents are all uniform, so I don't personally get a sense of the larger phrases, which are all either seven or nine bars long in a sublime example of Beethovenian wit. His performance generally lacks a sense of....capriciousness I guess. But a lot of other pianists also fall flat in that regard. Levit's adagio is fine, dynamically very restrained and impossible to mistake for anything "appassionato e con molto sentimento" but such dirgelike performances have been an acceptable interpretive option ever since Solomon, at least. Nothing special but definitely listenable. Finally in the fugue Levit actually seems to wake up and deliver a performance that builds momentum and shows off some of the macho brashness you mentioned, but always tempered with a bit of humour. I guess that's the movement he spent most of his time practicing. It's a sparkling performance and reveals that he can turn out better than routine work, which makes the comparative flatness of the first three movements all the more puzzling given that this is, after all, a studio recording.

In any case I feel a bit more positive about Levit although probably still not enough to buy the complete cycle
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 21, 2019, 05:53:25 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 20, 2019, 11:25:44 PM
Just too hard to imagine how it wouldn't be better than Rasch, which was such a full-on crashing bore.


I'm setting low expectations so that they are exceeded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 22, 2019, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 15, 2019, 02:37:23 PM
Just relistened to his Op. 101. The late trio of 109-111 was fairly anonymous, but very competent; 101 is super eccentric, but generally in the sense of going soft and quiet in places where you might not expect. Bit of rubato in first movement. I thought some of his "poetic" touches were precious and overthought, but I really dug the way he deliberately monotoned his way through the finale fugue bits at an unchanging dynamic level, as if playing some sternly sexy harpsichord.

Edit: wtf I sound like Mandryka

I remember hearing him in recital before he became a big deal -- although locally (Munich) he was already being hyped -- and found his Beethoven typically Russian; structurally wanting, all-too-caught up in the moment; ultimately rather underwhelming.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on April 28, 2019, 07:48:05 AM
Levit made very positive remarks about Schnabel in the Schnabel documentary, I think something along the lines of "no one played Beethoven in such an inspired way or with such feeling" so I figured I would revisit the 2 CD late sonatas but sadly I didn't hear much on it that has me too keen on this cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on May 09, 2019, 02:48:42 PM
I've now made it through Russell Sherman's cycle. I remember hearing it a while ago on Tidal streaming, listening to it in order and immediately being turned off by it as at least for my tastes the Op. 2 sonatas were really, really off putting to me. And then reading one of Jed Distler's reviews where he gave one of the discs a comically bad 2/10 rating; it just didn't have me interested in hearing more. I am sort of puzzled why Jed Distler felt the need to slam it to that extent when he often extols the virtues of Schnabel.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago I came across these for cheap and then decided to complete the set. Besides the Op. 2 sonatas which I'm still not a big fan of I think this is an extremely interesting cycle. Sherman's tremendous dynamic range, tonal color and his obsession with really bringing out the voices makes for a very interesting non-reference cycle. If you can look past his sometimes reckless use of rubato, tempo stretching, the little pauses he takes, etc. What I have founds helps is "listening to them from afar" instead of honing on these things, with that frame of mind Sherman has some tremendous ideas. This will be one of those great cycles I'll be enjoying for years, I think the way he breaks up the sonatas by volume was very well done as this isn't a cycle I'd want to listen to from start to finish but instead focus on in the order he presents them.

Now trying to decipher his liner notes does require some high proof whisk(e)y  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 12:35:58 AM
Quote from: staxomega on May 09, 2019, 02:48:42 PM

Now trying to decipher his liner notes does require some high proof whisk(e)y  ;D

Who wrote them?

Quote from: staxomega on May 09, 2019, 02:48:42 PM
What I have founds helps is "listening to them from afar" instead of honing on these things, with that frame of mind Sherman has some tremendous ideas.

That's sooooo hard to do.


Quote from: staxomega on May 09, 2019, 02:48:42 PM
with that frame of mind Sherman has some tremendous ideas.

An example, some talk through, would be much appreciated. I agree he's an interesting pianist in Beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on May 10, 2019, 08:04:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 12:35:58 AM
Who wrote them?

An example, some talk through, would be much appreciated. I agree he's an interesting pianist in Beethoven

Sherman and Gunther Schuller wrote the liner notes. It's Sherman's liner notes on the sonatas that are quite peculiar, not as abstruse as say Glenn Gould's but getting there.

The Pastoral Sonata is a real high point. Others are 10/3, an unusual Appassionata, 109 and Op 90 just off the top of my head are some I would suggest hearing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2019, 09:58:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 12:35:58 AM
That's sooooo hard to do.

Why?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2019, 09:58:32 AM
Why?

Because sometimes with this performer the embellishments are intrusive and can sound inorganic, so my attention is inevitably drawn to them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 11:52:53 AM
Quote from: staxomega on May 10, 2019, 08:04:01 AM
Sherman and Gunther Schuller wrote the liner notes. It's Sherman's liner notes on the sonatas that are quite peculiar, not as abstruse as say Glenn Gould's but getting there.

The Pastoral Sonata is a real high point. Others are 10/3, an unusual Appassionata, 109 and Op 90 just off the top of my head are some I would suggest hearing.

Thanks for that, I listened to the 109 and I agree it's rather good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2019, 12:07:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
Because sometimes with this performer the embellishments are intrusive and can sound inorganic, so my attention is inevitably drawn to them.

Ah, I see. I thought you were talking in general.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 10:23:52 PM
Robert Silverman has recorded a new cycle of Beethoven piano sonatas, you can buy it from here or indeed get most of it for free. He uses a modern concert grand of some kind, but it's OK.

http://www.audiohigh.com/our-destination/wolf-subzero-2/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 11, 2019, 05:25:34 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 10:23:52 PM
Robert Silverman has recorded a new cycle of Beethoven piano sonatas, you can buy it from here or indeed get most of it for free. He uses a modern concert grand of some kind, but it's OK.

http://www.audiohigh.com/our-destination/wolf-subzero-2/

Have you listened to any of it yet? I found the sound on his first set difficult to get past. The miking on that one was odd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 11, 2019, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: George on May 11, 2019, 05:25:34 AM
Have you listened to any of it yet? I found the sound on his first set difficult to get past. The miking on that one was odd.


The Orpheum set was of a reproducing Bosendorfer recorded in a rich dude's foyer, so hardly ideal recording conditions.  The AudioHigh set is more standard.  The recordings are live, and on the close and dry side.  Performances are not up to the Orpheum set.   The best recorded Silverman Beethoven is the Rouvain label recording of the last three sonatas played on Steinway #500,000.


(https://www.burchfieldpenney.org/cache/images/6427cd4aede211ebf7f69dd43dfac1c5.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 11, 2019, 06:29:48 AM
Quote from: George on May 11, 2019, 05:25:34 AM
Have you listened to any of it yet? I found the sound on his first set difficult to get past. The miking on that one was odd.

Just 109, it's listenable  -- but I found that the first was listenable even though it's not well engineered.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 11, 2019, 06:47:01 AM
Thanks for the info, gents!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 09:21:29 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 11, 2019, 05:53:21 AM
a rich dude's foyer, so hardly ideal recording conditions.

Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert -- they never knew, or cared about, ideal recording conditions --- yet they often played in a rich dude's foyer --- I say, claim and maintain that recordings have changed forever, yet not always for better, our experience of music, and I say, claim and maintain that people around 1800 honestly heard in their music things that we are honestly unable to hear in the same music.

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. --- L. P. Hartley
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 11, 2019, 09:27:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 09:21:29 AM
Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert -- they never knew, or cared about, ideal recording conditions --- yet they often played in a rich dude's foyer --- I say, claim and maintain that recordings have changed forever, yet not always for better, our experience of music, and I say, claim and maintain that people around 1800 honestly heard in their music things that we are honestly unable to hear in the same music.

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. --- L. P. Hartley

I say, claim and maintain that the Sun rises in the East.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 09:36:47 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 11, 2019, 09:27:47 AM
I say, claim and maintain that the Sun rises in the East.

You're as wrong as it gets --- the Earth revolves around the Sun, not the other way around.  :laugh:

Still, I say, claim and maintain that recordings have changed forever, yet not automatically for the better, our experience of music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 11, 2019, 09:53:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 09:36:47 AM
You're as wrong as it gets --- the Earth revolves around the Sun, not the other way around.  :laugh:

Still, I say, claim and maintain that recordings have changed forever, yet not automatically for the better, our experience of music.

It seems as though you do not understand the definition of "East," which is essentially the "phi" unit vector in the spherical coordinate system based at the center of the Earth. It is a most convenient frame of reference when describing terrestrial events. The Sun most definitely rises in the East, which is no contradiction to the heliocentric model of the solar system. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 11, 2019, 09:53:18 AM
It seems as though you do not understand the definition of "East," which is essentially the "phi" unit vector in the spherical coordinate system based at the center of the Earth. It is a most convenient frame of reference when describing terrestrial events. The Sun most definitely rises in the East, which is no contradiction to the heliocentric model of the solar system. :)

I'm a mechanical engineer by trade , my friend --- I understand everything you assume I don't understand, and more --- just read Henri Poincaré attentively  --- Still, I say, claim and maintain that recordings have changed forever, yet not automatically for the better, our experience of music  --- I'd rather listen once in my lifetime to Pagainini or Liszt than thirty times to --- whom, name your favorite violinist or pianist ---
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 11, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
I think I'm gonna start using "I say, claim, and maintain" before all of my opinions.

I declare, state, and insist that I will!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 11, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
I think I'm gonna start using "I say, claim, and maintain" before all of my opinions.

I declare, state, and insist that I will!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on May 11, 2019, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 11, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
I think I'm gonna start using "I say, claim, and maintain" before all of my opinions.

I declare, state, and insist that I will!

Maybe a Foghorn Leghorn avatar is in your future?

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b6/b7/28/b6b7283923a0ec0a05b000fa34a5a0cf.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on May 11, 2019, 05:55:41 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 09:21:29 AM
Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert -- they never knew, or cared about, ideal recording conditions --- yet they often played in a rich dude's foyer --- I say, claim and maintain that recordings have changed forever, yet not always for better, our experience of music, and I say, claim and maintain that people around 1800 honestly heard in their music things that we are honestly unable to hear in the same music.

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. --- L. P. Hartley

What exactly is your point? Because I'm struggling to understand it. Whether or not those people played live in the foyers of rich dudes completely fails to tell you whether or not they thought the music sounded particularly good in such places, as opposed to playing wherever a rich dude required them to play.

And even assuming that the music did sound good in those foyers when played live, that still tells you precisely nothing about whether or not such spaces are good for recording.

The things that you say, claim and maintain have, as far as I can see, absolutely nothing to do with your starting point. It's undoubtedly true that our experience of music has changed, but what that has to do with whether rich patrons of the 18th and 19th centuries had built spaces with an ear for a science of acoustics that hadn't actually been invented yet, I haven't the faintest idea.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 11, 2019, 11:37:55 PM
Quote from: Madiel on May 11, 2019, 05:55:41 PM
What exactly is your point? Because I'm struggling to understand it.

Don't waste your time. I can't remember what I was trying to say.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 11, 2019, 11:42:18 PM
I often think that listening privately to a recording in one's living room is in some respects closer to the experience of having a musician (or a small bunch of musicians) play the music in a (semi) private salon/living room/foyer than the experience of the modern concert hall. Especially in the case of piano, chamber music and Lieder.

But of course, recordings are different from live music and they change a lot. But there is nothing to be done about that and which aspects of music perception and reception change in which way seems also an open question to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on May 12, 2019, 05:55:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 11:52:53 AM
Thanks for that, I listened to the 109 and I agree it's rather good.

I relistened to Op. 110, this is another interesting one worth recommending but doesn't quite reach the heights of the truly exceptional performances, I personally prefer the dualing happiness and yearning of the first movement is brought out a bit more (Lucchesini's live recording remains my top choice), but Sherman does something very unusual that I can't describe in pianistic terms, almost like is simultaneously playing legato and staccato at the same time. The other two movements are very good as well.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
Because sometimes with this performer the embellishments are intrusive and can sound inorganic, so my attention is inevitably drawn to them.

The ones where he really turns up the rubato, the pauses, the dashing off a random line are my least favorite, like those Op. 2 sonatas I mentioned.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2019, 10:23:19 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 11, 2019, 11:42:18 PM
I often think that listening privately to a recording in one's living room is in some respects closer to the experience of having a musician (or a small bunch of musicians) play the music in a (semi) private salon/living room/foyer than the experience of the modern concert hall. Especially in the case of piano, chamber music and Lieder.

This is absolutely true, but there are some fundamental differences as well: you can stop a recording any time, or as many times, you want, and replay it later; you can replace one particular recording with any other, any time, or as many times you want. All of which you could emphatically not do back then --- your current live performance (in which you might, or might not, have taken part) was often your one and only chance to hear this or that particular piece of music. And this simple fact --- which for some (most?) of us means the horror, the horror! --- might have (might have, mind you!) changed everything --- just imagine that you listen to Beethoven's Sonata op. 13 for the first time in your life, and that you're (not even consciously) aware that it might very well be the last. Well, what then?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 15, 2019, 05:16:01 AM
Lately i have been listening to Charles Rosen's last 3 sonatas. i am not sure if he is a favorite of anyone but to me he hits the spot. I don't play the piano but if I do he would be exactly how i would play these" bold dynamic contrasts, steady but not stiff tempo, and just great sonority from the Steinway.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 15, 2019, 06:08:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2019, 10:23:19 AM
This is absolutely true, but there are some fundamental differences as well: you can stop a recording any time, or as many times, you want, and replay it later; you can replace one particular recording with any other, any time, or as many times you want. All of which you could emphatically not do back then --- your current live performance (in which you might, or might not, have taken part) was often your one and only chance to hear this or that particular piece of music. And this simple fact --- which for some (most?) of us means the horror, the horror! --- might have (might have, mind you!) changed everything --- just imagine that you listen to Beethoven's Sonata op. 13 for the first time in your life, and that you're (not even consciously) aware that it might very well be the last. Well, what then?
Sure, there are huge differences that came with electronic reproduction. There is a famous text by Walter Benjamin from the 20s or early 30s (Das Kunstwerk im Zeitalter der technischen Reproduzierbarkeit/The work of art in the age of technical reproduction) dealing with some these changes. That the artwork loses some of its "aura" etc.

Although I don't know what follows from listening to a piece for the first time and being aware or not that it might have been also the last time, I think this exaggerates the practice. If one was interested at all in music one would have opportunities to listen (or often play oneself) these pieces more than once, except maybe for some big orchestral pieces or operas.

Still, I think it is worth pointing out that with some more "intimate" chamber music the living room stereo is in some respects closer to the historical setting than the concert hall. There are other pieces, like Bach cantatas where almost any experience in the 21st century will be abstracted from the liturgical setting of an 18th century Lutheran service with a long and learned 18th century Lutheran sermon in between and totally different from the historical experience...

But overall it is doubtful what should follow from that. We cannot reproduce the historical conditions and it is doubtful that it would do us any good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 17, 2019, 09:41:32 AM
I think one important difference is that back then they focused less on the technicalities of a work / performance and more on the overall impression it made on the audience. Read their reviews, starting with the (in)famous "The Instrumental Music of Beethoven" by ETA Hoffmann. Although he was a composer himself, he doesn't write one single word about tonic-dominant relationships, modulations, cadenzas and other technicalities which make the bulk of most of our CD booklets today; Schumann, ditto; Berlioz, ditto; they write almost exclusively in terms of thoughts, feelings, moods, images and impressions --- nay, they actually wax poetic about them (the only booklets I've read that can compare, albeit palely, are those by Evgeny Sudbin and Fazil Say --- not surprisingly, they are themselves performers, not musicologists). Back then they saw, and appreciated, first and foremost the forest, even at the price of a few trees sacrificed here and there. Today, with our obsession of finding the perfect performance in the perfect sound, the forest is almost negligible, provided all trees are green, tall and regularly aligned.

Witness to this fundamental difference: Cortot and Schnabel. Both were members of the "old guard", both were notorious for their flawed technique --- just yesterday Schnabel was labeled "incompetent" right here on GMG (I'll pass on the competence of that poster to really judge S's competence) --- yet their recordings of Chopin and Beethoven are universally acclaimed as monumental, and all those who praise them do so in terms of artistic, intellectual, spiritual and emotional terns, not in terms of how they negociate tonic-dominant relationships, modulations, cadenzas and other technicalities.

What I ultimately mean is this: comparing at leisure several performances of a given piece in order to find (oftenly minute) differences, or technical flaws, and therefore establish who "owns" it is not what they generally did back then, but it's what we generally seem to delight in doing. And this has been brought about by the advent and the perfectioning of the recording technology and this, I think, is THE most important difference between us and them.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on May 17, 2019, 09:48:53 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 17, 2019, 09:41:32 AM
I think one important difference is that back then they focused less on the technicalities of a work / performance and more on the overall impression it made on the audience. Read their reviews, starting with the (in)famous "The Instrumental Music of Beethoven" by ETA Hoffmann. Although he was a composer himself, he doesn't write one single word about tonic-dominant relationships, modulations, cadenzas and other technicalities which make the bulk of most of our CD booklets today; Schumann, ditto; Berlioz, ditto; they write almost exclusively in terms of thoughts, feelings, moods, images and impressions --- nay, they actually wax poetic about them (the only booklets I've read that can compare, albeit palely, are those by Evgeny Sudbin and Fazil Say --- not surprisingly, they are themselves performers, not musicologists). Back then they saw, and appreciated, first and foremost the forest, even at the price of a few trees sacrificed here and there. Today, with our obsession of finding the perfect performance in the perfect sound, the forest is almost negligible, provided all trees are green, tall and regularly aligned.

Witness to this fundamental difference: Cortot and Schnabel. Both were members of the "old guard", both were notorious for their flawed technique --- just yesterday Schnabel was labeled "incompetent" right here on GMG (I'll pass on the competence of that poster to really judge S's competence) --- yet their recordings of Chopin and Beethoven are universally acclaimed as monumental, and all those who praise them do so in terms of artistic, intellectual, spiritual and emotional terns, not in terms of how they negociate tonic-dominant relationships, modulations, cadenzas and other technicalities.

What I ultimately mean is this: comparing at leisure several performances of a given piece in order to find (oftenly minute) differences, or technical flaws, and therefore establish who "owns" it is not what they generally did back then, but it's what we generally seem to delight in doing. And this has been brought about by the advent and the perfectioning of the recording technology and this, I think, is THE most important difference between us and them.

Very well said.   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on May 17, 2019, 03:07:05 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 17, 2019, 09:41:32 AM
Read their reviews, starting with the (in)famous "The Instrumental Music of Beethoven" by ETA Hoffmann. Although he was a composer himself, he doesn't write one single word about tonic-dominant relationships, modulations, cadenzas and other technicalities which make the bulk of most of our CD booklets today

That does not tell us much about changes in values over time. Record companies don't always invest in top-quality writing for CD booklets, and it's relatively easy to find people who can churn out that "then it modulates to the dominant" stuff. Even when they hire a good writer, it's not necessarily that writer's best work. Wouldn't something like The Rest Is Noise be a more apples-to-apples comparison?

On comparative listening and ranking, how common is that for most of us? For me it's very rare.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on May 18, 2019, 12:37:30 AM
Entirely appropriate though, in a Great Recordings and Reviews forum.  I suppose it's possible to declare a recording 'great' without any terms of reference, but it seems a bit uncritical.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2019, 12:55:34 AM
Hoffmann is not quite that untechnical.
There are several mentions of the keys certain passages are in, that the very beginning of the 5th is tonally ambiguous because of the unisono. Later about the 3rd movement he writes: Listen to the modulations, the close in the dominant major chord that is taken by the bass as tonic for the following theme in the minor. etc.
The commentary is not dominated by that stuff, sure, Hoffmann and the others have different goals and they also adress an inhomogeneous audience that would have included capable amateurs who would realize a lot the technical stuff by themselves or might be interested in it and others who would not and wouldn't care. Note that one big point Hoffmann wants to make is that despite the romantic effect Beethoven's music is not fantastically mad but tightly constructed and coherent.

So the intended audience is certainly relevant.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pat B on May 21, 2019, 05:13:51 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 18, 2019, 12:37:30 AM
Entirely appropriate though, in a Great Recordings and Reviews forum.  I suppose it's possible to declare a recording 'great' without any terms of reference, but it seems a bit uncritical.

By "comparative listening" I meant listening to a single piece in unusually quick repetition for the purpose of comparing recordings. I'm not saying never do that, but I do think it's possible to build a frame of reference in a more natural process.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 22, 2019, 08:25:57 AM
Quote from: Pat B on May 21, 2019, 05:13:51 AM
By "comparative listening" I meant listening to a single piece in unusually quick repetition for the purpose of comparing recordings. I'm not saying never do that, but I do think it's possible to build a frame of reference in a more natural process.

That is what works for me. I very rarely listen to different interpretations, back-to-back. Mainly I would do it only if the first one was so unsatisfactory I have to wash it away. But when I listen to a familiar piece all of the other versions I am familiar with are lurking in the back of my mind and I find myself noticing how the version I am listening to relates to those others.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 22, 2019, 10:30:35 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 22, 2019, 08:25:57 AM
That is what works for me. I very rarely listen to different interpretations, back-to-back. Mainly I would do it only if the first one was so unsatisfactory I have to wash it away. But when I listen to a familiar piece all of the other versions I am familiar with are lurking in the back of my mind and I find myself noticing how the version I am listening to relates to those others.

But how can you do that without back-to-back comparisons? Is your memory so prodigious that you remember in detail each and every recording of a given piece that you've heard?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 22, 2019, 10:34:33 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 22, 2019, 10:30:35 AM
But how can you do that without back-to-back comparisons? Is your memory so prodigious that you remember in detail each and every recording of a given piece that you've heard?
I can't speak for Scarpia but...yes-ish. I can remember a ton of details from recordings I've known for years or imprinted on, and can remember important details or differences about many that are newer to me. It's easier to generalize, of course, but yes.

To use one example, in the finale of Shostakovich Piano Concerto No 1, when the piano bursts into a quick solo jazz stride right before the final coda - I try to remember how every different soloist interprets that exact moment.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 22, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 22, 2019, 10:34:33 AM
I can't speak for Scarpia but...yes-ish. I can remember a ton of details from recordings I've known for years or imprinted on, and can remember important details or differences about many that are newer to me. It's easier to generalize, of course, but yes.

To use one example, in the finale of Shostakovich Piano Concerto No 1, when the piano bursts into a quick solo jazz stride right before the final coda - I try to remember how every different soloist interprets that exact moment.

Kudos to you, then! My memory is far shorter and my attention to details far less focused. I live for the moment. But hey, at least my musical experience of a new recording of a familiar piece is always fresh, while yours is spoiled by constant comparison and reflection.  :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 22, 2019, 10:49:25 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 22, 2019, 10:30:35 AM
But how can you do that without back-to-back comparisons? Is your memory so prodigious that you remember in detail each and every recording of a given piece that you've heard?

No, I don't claim to remember every detail of every bar of every recording I've ever heard. But as I listen to a favorite piece I can notice when key passages are performed differently from other recordings I have heard. It is not that I mentally compare with every version I have ever heard, but with other versions that have made an impression. When I listen to Beethoven's Op 101 (Piano Sonata in A) the ghosts of Pollini, Kempff, Arrau are lurking in the shadows, but not every other recording I have listened to. When I listen to Op 127, there is an implicit comparison to my favorite La Salle Quartet recording.

Quote from: Brian on May 22, 2019, 10:34:33 AM
I can't speak for Scarpia but...yes-ish. I can remember a ton of details from recordings I've known for years or imprinted on, and can remember important details or differences about many that are newer to me. It's easier to generalize, of course, but yes.

To use one example, in the finale of Shostakovich Piano Concerto No 1, when the piano bursts into a quick solo jazz stride right before the final coda - I try to remember how every different soloist interprets that exact moment.

Similar experience (not as applied to the Shostakovich, but to the pieces that are significant to me).

Probably my ability to imprint is weakening. I listened to two versions of the at Shostakovich in the last year, I think. One was Argerich, I think, I would have to look it up in my notes to see what the other was, or if there really was another.

Note added: Just checked, it was indeed Argerich/DG and Hamelin/Hyperion. Argerich nailed it!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 22, 2019, 11:06:01 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 22, 2019, 10:49:25 AM
Similar experience (not as applied to the Shostakovich, but to the pieces that are significant to me).

Yeah, it sounds from your description like our experiences are pretty similar. Unless a recording is singularly bizarre (ie anything with Currentzis) it takes a few listens for me to be able to recall details like that.

I do have an unusual musical memory - I can memorize whole swathes of music and play them back in my head like a radio. So for me the solution to "getting a tune stuck in my head" is to memorize the whole piece, so that instead of getting stuck, it will flow on to the conclusion. I've got all nine Beethoven symphonies, the Emperor concerto, probably 12-15 sonatas, some of his overtures, some quartet movements but no full quartets memorized.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 25, 2019, 05:31:48 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51T3lWcan%2BL._SX250_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ywj2qWCrL._SS250_.jpg)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61IRc3HoH6L._SY250_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Crso%2B3KkL._SY250_.jpg)



I've not done a proper shootout for a while, so why not do so with four new to me versions of the last three sonatas of old Ludwig van.  I just picked up the Osborne, and I had sort of forgotten about the other three, which I picked up at the start of the year.


Op 109

Siirala - Fast in both the opening movement and Prestissimo, with nice left hand accents in the opening movement.  The final theme and variations also sounds speedy and a bit congested in a few places, with the fifth variation a bit rough, perhaps.  Less transcendent and more direct.

le Sage - More measured, but hardly slow in the opening movement.  More nuanced, with greater dynamic variation and a smoother sound.  The Prestissimo is quick and more varied than Siirala.  The final theme and variations is slightly swifter overall, but le Sage mixes tempi and style more, and achieves a more transcendent, late-LvB sound.  He really takes care to play with no little beauty.  I had middling expectations going in, and man, they were surpassed.

Tharaud - Fast, clean, light and perhaps a bit too elegant in the opener.  There's less bite to the accents than either of the two prior versions.  The Prestissimo whizzes by, with admirable clarity, but not enough weight.  The theme and variations is serene, beautiful, poised, well played, and boring, especially when he plays slow for effect.  The movement kind of meanders.  Whiff. 

Osborne - Quick, but not too quick, to open.  A brighter sound than the others, but it's just about right.  Some accenting verges on the too hard and metallic, but never gets there.  Clean playing.  Near perfect dynamics.  The Prestissimo is fast and fierce, but not rushed, with Osborne varying more widely in tempo than the others.  The loudest passages do become strident, but not ugly.  He starts the last movement with an Andante theme that is perfectly paced, beautiful, and of the transcendent variety, which then goes further in that direction as the movement progresses, promising good things for 111.  Osborne's loudest playing again veers toward the hard, but he manages to keep the right sound and feel, and the coda is serene and all late LvB goodness.

Osborne and le Sage essentially tie in this one.  Color me surprised.



Op 110

Siirala - Siirala opts for a moderately timed opening movement, but that masks some significant tempo variations.  While he certainly generates an at times lovely sound and never just rushes, the speed and style saps a bit of the late LvB magic.  The Allegro molto is paced just right, and the left hand playing is delightful but dynamic contrasts don't excite.  Siirala opens the final movement with a solemn and lovely recitative and arioso that takes on the late LvB sound I like.  Tempo choice are just right, and dynamic contrasts to start are just nifty.  Much of the rest of the movement doesn't really live up this, with rather weak repeated chords, for instance, but the inverted fugue is just magnificent.  Sort of a mixed bag take overall.

le Sage - le Sage goes for a quicker overall first movement.  His tempo shifts are basically flawless, and he generates a sound elevated, lovely, and fleet in perfect proportions.  The pianist then dashes off the Allegro molto and something closer to a Presto tempo, with superb dynamic contrasts and clarity.  It's middle period Beethoven brought forward, and it works splendidly.  le Sage keeps with a similar approach in the opening sections of the last movement, and in the fugue, he plays quick but with a rounded tone, generating more tension than expected, and then returns to a tenser second arioso.  After nice repeated chords and an even nicer transition to the inverted fugue, le Sage plays with some urgency before ending with a potent coda.  A superb version.

Tharaud - Tharaud's overall timing is close to Siirala, and he plays more elegantly, but sort of more surface-y.  Indeed, the entire movement is quite beautiful, with each section wonderfully played, but something goes missing.  In the Allegro molto, Tharaud starts off slow and quasi-heavy, to ill effect.  The entire movement sounds held back.  In the final movement, Tharaud plays the ariosos beautifully, with an uncommonly potent transition to the second one, and while the fugues are clear and the repeated chords before the second one are potent, and everything sounds tidy, the playing seems to miss the spirit of the music.  Bummer.

Osborne - Osborne opens with the slowest opening movement of the bunch.  It manages to sound more transcendent than the rest and more beautiful in the quieter passages.  Osborne's piano sounds brighter at mezzo forte and above, which is no problem, especially when the playing truly sounds so truly cantabile.  Osborne's meticulous control over dynamics yields uncommonly effective forte playing near the end, and it also makes the fast Allegro molto more jolting when it arrives, with forte accents looking forward to the opening movement of Op 111.  Osborne then starts the last movement with a transcendent recitative which segues into an even more transcendent arioso.  Buried in the mix, or not so buried, really, are micro-dynamic variations of the most ear-catching variety.  The fugue starts off all light and clean, the builds up in tension and power before quickly receding back to the second arioso, which this time sounds more solemn.  The repeated chords build up masterfully, from a near silent whisper to a not quite thundering forte, but the tradeoff here is a transition to the inverted fugue that is crazy good.  The tempo picks up considerably, going from very slow to nearly dizzyingly fast, resulting in an exceptionally fine coda.  Hot damn!

Osborne by a country mile, in one of the great recordings of the piece.  le Sage, well, he again vastly exceeded my expectations.



Op 111

Siirala - A dark, strong Maestoso transitions via nice 'n' rumbly left hand notes to an Allegro of somewhat measured tempo some of the time, and nifty speed where it counts, with even niftier sforzandi.  The movement is well put together.  The Arietta sounds processional and serious to start, but not especially transcendent.  Siirala then plays the second half slower and injects some serenity into the mix.  He seems to lighten the interpretive burden, as it were, when he moves into the first variation, which sounds simultaneously middle and late Beethoven.  The second variation sounds snappier, and the third is zippy but not really boogie woogie.  As he moves into the late variations, the playing doesn't sound particularly transcendent, but it is supremely well executed.  The "little stars" sound quite lovely, and Siirala knows how to play trills, displaying enviable evenness, and his left hand playing sounds extremely fine and weighty without being overbearing.  The final chain of trills display extremely fine dynamic variation between voices.  An excellent rendition, if not a Top 20 choice.  The disc as a whole is quite good.  I would not object if Mr Siirala opted to record the cycle. 

le Sage - The Maestoso sounds brighter and more oriented toward the right hand, and it also assume a more elevated air than Siirala.  The Allegro has more left hand heft, and le Sage's quicker overall tempo generates more energy and drive.  It manages to sound lighter and deeper at once.  In the second movement, le Sage takes a slower overall tempo, and he starts with a slow, somber, processional, and transcendent Arietta.  Not content with the slow tempo of the first half, le Sage slows things down even more in the second half, doing the time suspension thing, and then the first variation very slowly emerges after a masterfully handled note by note transition.  The tempo picks up markedly, but not in an exaggerated way, in the bouncier second variation, and the boogie woogie variation has sufficient boogie and ample woogie.  le Sage then performs a quick transition to more a transcendent sound, initially underpinned by a steady but not obtrusive left hand.  His "little stars" are slow and accented in such a way as to result in a stiff but mightily effective sound.  Nice.  le Sage picks up the tempo a bit afterward, and while some of the louder music has real oomph, he delivers the most bestest playing at the quieter end of the spectrum, even when, or especially when, the dynamic levels vary.  His trills are quite fine, if not as even as Siirala's, and the effect is much more satisfying.  The only complaint comes with the coda, which ends up sounding fairly blunt, though still elevated.  Overall, this is an extremely fine performance, one suitable for shoot outs with Big Names, and the disc simply smooshed my expectations going in.  I almost think I should write Mr le Sage a letter demanding that he record the rest of the sonatas.

Tharaud - Tharaud starts the Maestoso in punchy fashion, with the close and somewhat dynamically compressed recording* amplifying the effect.  Tharaud's tempi are nicely selected in the Allegro, being neither too fast, nor too slow, but drama, bite, sting, energy, etc, are not up to snuff.  Even the boldest sforzandi don't really satisfy.  It's not an enervated recording, it's just not particularly good.  The Arietta is slow and well done, and the first two variations are pretty nice.  The third variation is played very swiftly, too swiftly, and lacks the kind of rhythmic sensibility I prefer.  The rest of the movement is played very swiftly, more swiftly than I like in some places, and Tharaud adopts an annoying mannerism playing some repeated notes much louder than the gentle surrounding figurations, completely altering the balance of the music.  It's unique, and some people may like, but it misses for me.  The chains of trills are well played but too rushed.  Pretty much everything misses for me.  (* I purchased the 24/96 download of the Tharaud, and it's sound, while very good, isn't the best among this batch, let alone in a broader context.)

Osborne - Osborne launches right into the Maestoso, with his hard-hitting, steely forte belted out aggressively.  He backs off a bit, then rips right back into the piece in one of the more aggressive takes I've heard.  Not all is steel and bite, but a lot is, and it's invigorating.  Osborne also sees no need to dally as he brings the movement in at a tight 8'24".  Osborne then starts off with a brisk Arietta, with some nice bass underpinning - not too much, and definitely not too little.  He manages to make the music have that late-LvB sound I like while going a bit quick.  He then imperceptibly shifts to a slower second half, which sounds more elevated yet.  The variations start off with a first variation that is almost optimally transcendent while also forward moving and ever so slightly swifter than I would typically prefer.  Ditto the second variation.  The third variation is fast and jagged and has some of the fierceness of the opening movement.  Nice.  Afterward, the piece transitions into transcendent LvB, with gentle yet brilliant "little stars", often lovely tone, a often flowing sound, though one where Osborne knows when to emphasize a left hand arpeggio just so, or up the volume just the right amount.  The chains of trills vary a bit, often sounding soft and gentle, but not always, and some left hand notes get delivered with a bit more emphasis, though nothing like what Tharaud does.  The harder hitting, brighter playing returns as Osborne ratchets up the tension expertly right up until the final chain of trills, which almost becomes part of an extended coda, coasting along musically until an Elysian end.  Superb.  I don't know if it's Top 10 superb, but Top 20 seems a sure bet.  Maybe I need to do a months long comparison of all the 111s I own.  Anyway, another grade A disc from Mr Osborne.


This shootout sort of confounded expectations.  I had none for Siirala really, but I expected great things from Tharaud and ho-hum things from le Sage, but got exactly the opposite.  I expected great things from Osborne and more or less got what I expected.  A mixed bag overall, with two new really fine additions to my collection. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on May 25, 2019, 05:44:59 AM
Thanks Todd, that was all very interesting to read.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2019, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: Madiel on May 25, 2019, 05:44:59 AM
Thanks Todd, that was all very interesting to read.

+ 1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 08, 2019, 05:48:19 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Vo79U6umL._SY425_.jpg)


Another new cycle starts off.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 07, 2019, 02:13:38 AM
Has anyone heard this, and have any thoughts about it?

(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/4b7d94d58d02e04650468f8fbd95b853/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2019, 06:14:21 AM
Quote from: amw on July 07, 2019, 02:13:38 AM
Has anyone heard this, and have any thoughts about it?

(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/4b7d94d58d02e04650468f8fbd95b853/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

Over the years I've seen this cycle mentioned quite often by connoisseurs, as it were, and always very positively. So seeing your post prompted me to listen to a sonata, and I plumped for op 111 of course.

It really is very good imaginative piano playing, well recorded too. There's a confidence and even toughness about his playing which may be spot on in Beethoven, but I think it wouldn't be fair to say he's cold. But he's not warm and romantically cuddly. Transparent voicing, he clearly and I sees the sonata  as being interesting contrapuntally, and I think he's right there. The tempos of the first few variations not too fast, thus courageously breaking the mould. There was a good sense of tension in the variations, a feeling of music being taken to the limits and beyond. Thank goodness he avoided any feeling of mystical transcendence! If it were a concert, we'd all be up on our feet shouting bravo.

My feeling is that this will be well worth exploring for anyone interested in the music, to me it sounds like he's got a feel for Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 07, 2019, 01:49:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 07, 2019, 06:14:21 AM
Over the years I've seen this cycle mentioned quite often by connoisseurs, as it were, and always very positively. So seeing your post prompted me to listen to a sonata, and I plumped for op 111 of course.

I suppose you are aware, that Houston made two complete cycles, and that the cycle in question is the second.

Does anyone know how the two cycles compare?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on July 07, 2019, 03:12:06 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 07, 2019, 01:49:12 PM
I suppose you are aware, that Houston made two complete cycles, and that the cycle in question is the second.

Does anyone know how the two cycles compare?

Todd listed them both last year in his Third Tier.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg1131478.html#msg1131478

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2019, 09:30:14 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 07, 2019, 01:49:12 PM
I suppose you are aware, that Houston made two complete cycles, and that the cycle in question is the second.

Does anyone know how the two cycles compare?

No I didn't know there were two. What I posted was irrelevant then as it pertained to the first cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 08, 2019, 06:45:26 AM
I listened to both Op. 111s. I feel somewhat bad about not appreciating them more, he's a local guy and a friend/colleague of one of my composition teachers.

The Rattle 111 is in unrealistically good sound, sounds like someone put a microphone right under the soundboard of a steinway. The Trust 111 is a bit distant and resonant, sounding more like a cheap audience seat perspective.

Performance style is much as Mandryka describes it. Valery Afanassiev is a good point of comparison for the Rattle 111 (although Afanassiev has made a recording of this sonata himself and he's somewhat slower I believe). The Trust 111 is somewhat more conventional; the Allegro is not as good as the Rattle 111 (where it benefits from the neo-baroque-ish style) whereas the Arietta is better, less prosaic to begin with, and doesn't feel quite as slow and leaden despite taking longer by the clock, mostly because the playing is quieter and more dynamically varied.

I think Houstoun is generally too slow for my taste—ok admittedly, the last time I played through the Arietta it took me 19 minutes, but a lot of that is probably due to taking Variation 3 too slowly because I can't play the piano—but I appreciate the general modesty and lack of attempts at transcendence. However my benchmark for this style of performance is Christoph Eschenbach's set of the last 4 sonatas on EMI and Eschenbach generally holds my interest better, and doesn't feel as laboured despite being even slower in almost every movement. Neither Houstoun nor another Todd favourite, Takahiro Sonoda (whose last 3 sonatas on Evica I picked up from a file sharing website recently), quite measures up within those stylistic parameters. (I would also qualify Sonoda as superior to Houstoun in that regard.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2019, 08:38:29 AM
Quote from: amw on July 08, 2019, 06:45:26 AM
I listened to both Op. 111s. I feel somewhat bad about not appreciating them more, he's a local guy and a friend/colleague of one of my composition teachers.

The Rattle 111 is in unrealistically good sound, sounds like someone put a microphone right under the soundboard of a steinway. The Trust 111 is a bit distant and resonant, sounding more like a cheap audience seat perspective.

Performance style is much as Mandryka describes it. Valery Afanassiev is a good point of comparison for the Rattle 111 (although Afanassiev has made a recording of this sonata himself and he's somewhat slower I believe). The Trust 111 is somewhat more conventional; the Allegro is not as good as the Rattle 111 (where it benefits from the neo-baroque-ish style) whereas the Arietta is better, less prosaic to begin with, and doesn't feel quite as slow and leaden despite taking longer by the clock, mostly because the playing is quieter and more dynamically varied.

I think Houstoun is generally too slow for my taste—ok admittedly, the last time I played through the Arietta it took me 19 minutes, but a lot of that is probably due to taking Variation 3 too slowly because I can't play the piano—but I appreciate the general modesty and lack of attempts at transcendence. However my benchmark for this style of performance is Christoph Eschenbach's set of the last 4 sonatas on EMI and Eschenbach generally holds my interest better, and doesn't feel as laboured despite being even slower in almost every movement. Neither Houstoun nor another Todd favourite, Takahiro Sonoda (whose last 3 sonatas on Evica I picked up from a file sharing website recently), quite measures up within those stylistic parameters. (I would also qualify Sonoda as superior to Houstoun in that regard.)

Afanassiev takes 22.5 minutes for op 111/ii. I'd say the essential difference between the him and the Houston I heard is to do with toughness. Afanassiev is cuddly. And deep, you can hear the silence before the creation of the earth and the breath of God in his performance. .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 12:24:41 PM
Having spent parts of the last several days getting caught up on this thread, I followed it up by enjoying some excellent Beethoven on video .... Kempff performing the Moonlight and #27, followed by Gulda & Szell WP in the Emperor Concerto.  I thought the Moonlight sonata was particularly lovely in this recording:


(https://static.raru.co.za/cover/2014/05/25-08/311399-m.jpg?v=1400972400)


(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1209551169_AN2080.jpg)


I also just picked up MP3s of all of Bruce Hungerford's Beethoven sonata recordings for 99 cents, as part of the below set on Amazon.  Looking forward to checking them out tonight.  There are a whole bunch of these sets out there, some of which look worthwhile -- I also acquired their "Big Box" of Haydn symphony recordings -- not a complete set, but a very large selection and hard to beat for 99 cents!


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/918fxJC+mAL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 12:44:08 PM
After the videos above, I stated doing some comparative listening to Beethoven's last three sonatas.  I should confess that I don't really know (i.e. understand) these works as well as I should -- I've listened far more frequently over the years to the early and "name" sonatas, and haven't really given the late sonatas the proper attention (same with the late string quartets -- I've always found both sets a bit intimidating, I suppose).  I will try to post some observations once I've had time to digest.

Last night:  Serkin and Arrau
Next up:  Hungerford, and the "classic" Pollini

What would you recommend after that?  I'm thinking Gilels and Backhaus, maybe Charles Rosen...

Who are your favorites in these sonatas?  Are there any tips you might offer to a less experienced listener to aid in navigating these works?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 08, 2019, 01:17:37 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 12:44:08 PM
After the videos above, I stated doing some comparative listening to Beethoven's last three sonatas.  I should confess that I don't really know (i.e. understand) these works as well as I should -- I've listened far more frequently over the years to the early and "name" sonatas, and haven't really given the late sonatas the proper attention (same with the late string quartets -- I've always found both sets a bit intimidating, I suppose).  I will try to post some observations once I've had time to digest.

Last night:  Serkin and Arrau
Next up:  Hungerford, and the "classic" Pollini

What would you recommend after that?  I'm thinking Gilels and Backhaus, maybe Charles Rosen...

Maybe Annie Fischer and Kempff.

QuoteWho are your favorites in these sonatas? 

These are in order, with / showing a tie.

30. Op 109 – Fischer/Pollini/Serkin(m) – Gulda (Amadeo/Brilliant), Schnabel, Barenboim (DG)

31. Op 110 – Serkin(stereo,1960) - Fischer/Kempff(st)/Gilels/Roberts, Pollini

32. Op 111 – Yudina(studio) - Fischer/Kempff(st)/Gulda,  Pollini/Barenboim/Richter/Schnabel/Serkin(st)

QuoteAre there any tips you might offer to a less experienced listener to aid in navigating these works?

I'd say keep listening. They don't click right away, at least they didn't for me, but when they do, it is sublime.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 06:29:00 PM
Thanks George!

I'm a bit surprised to see Barenboim.... I've been reading through the past several years of this thread, and got the impression you didn't care for him too much.... I have the DG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 08, 2019, 07:27:14 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 08, 2019, 08:38:29 AM
Afanassiev takes 22.5 minutes for op 111/ii. I'd say the essential difference between the him and the Houston I heard is to do with toughness. Afanassiev is cuddly. And deep, you can hear the silence before the creation of the earth and the breath of God in his performance. .
I have never heard his 111 (it's quite recent I think), I'm comparing Houstoun more to the Denon era Afanassiev in Brahms, Schubert, Schumann etc.

Someday I will do some more detailed comparisons for the last 5 sonatas, these are some of the contenders that would place highly though:

Op.109:
Maria Tipo (studio) A+, (live) A
Schnabel A
François Frederic Guy I (harmonia mundi) A-
Steven Osborne B+
Mitsuko Uchida B+

Op.110:
Gabor Csalog A-
Michaël Lévinas A-
Anderszewski B+
Osborne B+
Takahiro Sonoda III (Evica) B+
Uchida B

Op.111:
Pi-Hsien Chen A-
Eschenbach A-
Uchida B+/A- boundary
Osborne B+
Schnabel B+
Korstick B
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 08, 2019, 07:28:22 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 06:29:00 PM
Thanks George!

I'm a bit surprised to see Barenboim.... I've been reading through the past several years of this thread, and got the impression you didn't care for him too much.... I have the DG.

My pleasure!

Barenboim's DG was my very first Beethoven sonata set. Overall, no, I don't like his Beethoven sonatas. However, I do think he does quite well with Ops. 111, 14/2, 22 and 78.

I also like his concerto set with Klemperer, even if it is isn't among my very favorite LvB concerto sets (Serkin/Kubelik, Sherman/Nuemann and Backhaus/Schmidt-Isserstedt.)

[These days, I think Barenboim shines brightest in the Brahms Piano Concertos with Barbirolli.]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2019, 08:04:35 PM
Quote from: amw on July 08, 2019, 07:27:14 PM
I have never heard his 111 (it's quite recent I think), I'm comparing Houstoun more to the Denon era Afanassiev in Brahms, Schubert, Schumann etc.

Someday I will do some more detailed comparisons for the last 5 sonatas, these are some of the contenders that would place highly though:

Op.109:
Maria Tipo (studio) A+, (live) A
Schnabel A
François Frederic Guy I (harmonia mundi) A-
Steven Osborne B+
Mitsuko Uchida B+

Op.110:
Gabor Csalog A-
Michaël Lévinas A-
Anderszewski B+
Osborne B+
Takahiro Sonoda III (Evica) B+
Uchida B

Op.111:
Pi-Hsien Chen A-
Eschenbach A-
Uchida B+/A- boundary
Osborne B+
Schnabel B+
Korstick B

I've just booked a ticket to hear Leonskaja play all three sonatas together. She's getting some positive reviews with the programme so I have high expectations. It's in a couple of months.

Don't forget there are two Schnabel op 109/111

(Be sure to check Csalog's Schubert, there's something interesting going on there. Let me know if you find the booklet anywhere, if he's written for it.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2019, 12:30:17 AM
I think you could do worse than the 1970s Pollini for getting to know them. He is somewhat "cool" but this also has the advantage of not getting used to overly eccentric or mannered interpretations.

There are probably some listener's guides online. Overall I am somewhat puzzled that the myth of the difficult Late Beethoven is still going on. I am not being facetious but as a relative beginner around 17 yo I found quite a bit of late Beethoven more accessible than lots of other classics, including some early and middle period Beethoven. True, there are some stumbling blocks, above all op.133 and the op.106 final (and maybe also the slow movement of this work due to sheer length) but there is also a lot of melodically appealing, accessible music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 09, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
Thanks for all of these suggestions, much obliged! 

Off-topic, George I totally agree on the Barenboim/Barbirolli Brahms -- long time favorite of mine.  I think it's tied with his Mahler 6 for my favorite recording from that conductor; rugged, powerful stuff.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 09, 2019, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 09, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
Thanks for all of these suggestions, much obliged! 

Off-topic, George I totally agree on the Barenboim/Barbirolli Brahms -- long time favorite of mine.  I think it's tied with his Mahler 6 for my favorite recording from that conductor; rugged, powerful stuff.

Fully agree! Barbirolli's M6 is a force to be reckoned with.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 10, 2019, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: amw on July 08, 2019, 07:27:14 PM
Op.109:
Maria Tipo (studio) A+, (live) A

Op.110:
Takahiro Sonoda III (Evica) B+

Both of the Tipo Op. 109 were among my favorite Beethoven piano sonata discoveries from last year. I should hear them again to compare/contrast. On the disc with Op. 53 there is something very unusual- you can hear birds chirping in some of the quieter passages!

I have also really been taken with Takahiro Sonoda's Evica Op. 110, that left handed playing is something else.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 11, 2019, 05:35:45 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 12:44:08 PM
Who are your favorites in these sonatas?  Are there any tips you might offer to a less experienced listener to aid in navigating these works?

Other than the above mentioned I have a faint spot among others for Badura-Skoda, Lucchesini and Solomon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 10:23:22 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 12:44:08 PM

What would you recommend after that?  I'm thinking Gilels and Backhaus, maybe Charles Rosen...

Who are your favorites in these sonatas?  Are there any tips you might offer to a less experienced listener to aid in navigating these works?

If you want a modern piano, I think you should try a completely different approach, I think you should see what you make of Schiff's colourful, light, and lyrical way with Beethoven, he'll have you singing along and tapping your toes like with pop music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 02:31:59 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 08, 2019, 12:24:41 PM
Having spent parts of the last several days getting caught up on this thread, I followed it up by enjoying some excellent Beethoven on video .... Kempff performing the Moonlight and #27, followed by Gulda & Szell WP in the Emperor Concerto.  I thought the Moonlight sonata was particularly lovely in this recording:


(https://static.raru.co.za/cover/2014/05/25-08/311399-m.jpg?v=1400972400)




I think the Schumann on this DVD is interesting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 12, 2019, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 10:23:22 AM
If you want a modern piano, I think you should try a completely different approach, I think you should see what you make of Schiff's colourful, light, and lyrical way with Beethoven, he'll have you singing along and tapping your toes like with pop music.

You mean this, right?

(https://ecmreviews.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/beethoven-the-piano-sonatas.jpg?w=764)

If yes, thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 09:01:06 AM
Yes I do.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:19:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 09:01:06 AM
Yes I do.

Duly noted.  I have lots of Schiff in Bach, Mozart, and Schubert, but not in Beethoven... I may need to check that out.  How would you compare Schiff to Richard Goode or Paul Lewis -- in a similar vein?

Much obliged to all for the suggestions!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 12, 2019, 09:25:03 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:19:22 AM
Duly noted.  I have lots of Schiff in Bach, Mozart, and Schubert, but not in Beethoven... I may need to check that out.  How would you compare Schiff to Richard Goode or Paul Lewis -- in a similar vein?

Much obliged to all for the suggestions!

While I am not a fan of Schiff's Beethoven, I am curious which LvB complete sonata sets you own.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 09:40:38 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:19:22 AM
Duly noted.  I have lots of Schiff in Bach, Mozart, and Schubert, but not in Beethoven... I may need to check that out.  How would you compare Schiff to Richard Goode or Paul Lewis -- in a similar vein?

Much obliged to all for the suggestions!

I don't know Goode or Lewis well enough to comment, what I can say is this, in the late sonatas, in op 111,  Schiff plays the music like a troubadour, a jongleur. My thought was that this is so different from Kempff etc that, given that you're stuck, it's worth a try.

But really, you can hear for yourself easily enough can't you? They're all easily available.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 12, 2019, 09:55:43 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:19:22 AM
Duly noted.  I have lots of Schiff in Bach, Mozart, and Schubert, but not in Beethoven... I may need to check that out.  How would you compare Schiff to Richard Goode or Paul Lewis -- in a similar vein?

Much obliged to all for the suggestions!
The general consensus around here is that Goode and Lewis make very pretty sounds, but aren't too interesting deep down. I have only heard 5-6 sonatas from each of the three pianists, but expect Schiff to be livelier, less constantly legato, and more "historically informed" - like a HIP performance on a modern piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on July 12, 2019, 10:41:33 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 12, 2019, 09:55:43 AM
The general consensus around here is that Goode and Lewis make very pretty sounds, but aren't too interesting deep down. I have only heard 5-6 sonatas from each of the three pianists, but expect Schiff to be livelier, less constantly legato, and more "historically informed" - like a HIP performance on a modern piano.

I'd say that Goode is somewhat more muscular than Lewis (who I think does a better job with Schubert) but yeah, neither is top tier, although certainly worthwhile.  I'd agree that the Schiff ECM New Series recordings reflect his more recent HIP orientation, albeit on modern piano.  A style of playing that is more evident in his Bach recordings, but I think the newer ECM recordings of either composer are measurably better than what he had recorded previously.  Also ECM's recorded sound is a pleasure to listen to.

Of all the pianists mentioned on this page, my vote would be for Schiff/ECM.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 12, 2019, 10:45:48 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:19:22 AM
Duly noted.  I have lots of Schiff in Bach, Mozart, and Schubert, but not in Beethoven... I may need to check that out.  How would you compare Schiff to Richard Goode or Paul Lewis -- in a similar vein?

Much obliged to all for the suggestions!

I find Goode rather straight and unsophisticated and a bit boring.
Lewis is a prettified variety of Kempff (if that is possible) but without his insight.
Schiff is concerned about micro-details and a bit mannered. Tiring in the long run.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 12:46:14 PM
Quote from: George on July 12, 2019, 09:25:03 AM
While I am not a fan of Schiff's Beethoven, I am curious which LvB complete sonata sets you own.


Since you asked ... I went through a period several years ago (back when I was a regular member of the forum) when I bought and collected a great number of recordings.  As I'm sure many folks here can relate, it's very easy to acquire a box set with 5 or 15 or 50 CDs -- it's another matter entirely to devote the time to listen to and really appreciate the music.  I acquired what I considered a good basic library of the "standard repertoire"/warhorses/classics/whatever you wish to call them, focusing mostly on orchestral music, and then went on to acquire things like kids, added job responsibility, parents with health issues, etc., which resulted in my losing some things like extraneous time, CD budget, etc.


My kids are getting older now, which frees up some time, and I'm now spending some of it getting re-acquainted (or in many cases acquainted, if I'm honest) with some of the recordings I piled up back in the day.  Up until last month I hadn't bought a classical CD in about 4-5 years.  I made an exception for the big Szell Columbia recording set, and am now very cautiously picking up a few choice items (such as the Marzendorfer Haydn set that I mentioned in the Haydn thread). 


All of which is preamble to an embarrassingly long list of cycles owned by someone who still doesn't quite "get" the later sonatas.  I clearly need to spend some time listening to what I've already got, and intend to.  I have physical copies of the following sets, off the top of my head.  I also have a couple more in MP3 format, notably Annie Fischer, and some random assortments of sonatas by other pianists.



Arrau
Backhaus stereo
Barenboim DG
Brendel III
Frank
Gilels
Goode
Gulda (Amadeo)
Heidsieck
Kempff mono
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Lewis
Nat
O'Conor
Schnabel (Naxos)


Recommendations for good places to go within the above list are very welcome, though I'll also bank information on other sets (such as Schiff) for the future. 


Thanks for listening, and for all of the recommendations and guidance!  :)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 12, 2019, 01:12:08 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 12:46:14 PM
...snip....

Arrau
Backhaus stereo
Barenboim DG
Brendel III
Frank
Gilels
Goode
Gulda (Amadeo)
Heidsieck
Kempff mono
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Lewis
Nat
O'Conor
Schnabel (Naxos)

Recommendations for good places to go within the above list are very welcome, though I'll also bank information on other sets (such as Schiff) for the future. 

Thanks for sharing all that!

Wow, you have an impressive list of complete LvB sets, there. I think your idea to listen more is a wise one. 

Looking at your list, the ones that I find to be the most consistent and enjoyable:

Backhaus stereo - Great sound and nearly as well performed as his mono set. He's such a knowing guide through this great music. One feels as if they are in good hands listening to him play Beethoven.
Gulda (Amadeo) - A top three Beethoven set, IMO. (Annie Fischer and Lucchesini being the other two) Love his clean, fast way of playing. Comes off as Beethoven as young adult.
Kempff mono - Surprisingly solid mono sound, performance here certainly betters his later stereo set on DG. Less fireworks, more beauty.
Schnabel (Naxos) - Urgent, spontaneous sounding playing here. I love this classic set. And I love Mark Obert-Thorn's musical/listenable transfers.

As for where to go with what you have, I would suggest listening through one or more of them in order. I think that Backhaus and Gulda would be your best guide through the structure of the works. For the emotional aspect, Annie Fischer and Schnabel are second to none. And for the beauty of the music, Kempff mono and Lucchesini should be of great help. I realize you don't have the Lucchesini, I just mention him because after years of thinking I had all the Beethoven sonata sets I'd ever need, I found his set used for a great price and was immediately hooked on his playing, which is live on this set.

(https://rovimusic.rovicorp.com/image.jpg?c=ae_e9ZBH-ydeRO3eARn5VFWnbEN5fCjifro6xhIBuB4=&f=5)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 12, 2019, 02:18:28 PM
I agree pretty much 100% with George's post.

In addition I want to note that quite a few of the cycles you own are known to be "eccentric." Not in a BAD way, but in a way that is to say that they're more for connoisseurs and Beethoven junkies and weirdos like me, rather than somebody who is just trying to "get" the pieces for the first time. These more oddball performers would include Gilels (very very romantic, often rather slow - I think they're totally wonderful), Heidsieck, Lewis (as described above), Nat (very "French"), Gulda (the exact opposite of Gilels), and honestly some of the stereo Backhaus too.

Again - not to insult those performers. They all are capable of achieving big highs. But they're more individualized vs. somebody like Kempff who can guide a first-timer through without seeming to have a "bias". And they also occasionally simply miss - like I love Heidsieck in most of the sonatas, but his "Pastoral" really annoys me with its weirdness.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 12, 2019, 02:42:01 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 12:46:14 PM

Arrau
Backhaus stereo
Barenboim DG
Brendel III
Frank
Gilels
Goode
Gulda (Amadeo)
Heidsieck
Kempff mono
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Lewis
Nat
O'Conor
Schnabel (Naxos)


This is a great selection with most of the important styles covered, which should help you to get into the sonatas. So begin with listening to those you already own.

I agree with George about Lucchesini, but particularly as to the late sonatas I find Pollini's clear-cut technically peerless interpretation mandatory. Also Solomon and both Serkins.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 12, 2019, 03:02:04 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 12, 2019, 02:42:01 PM
This is a great selection with most of the important styles covered, which should help you to get into the sonatas. So begin with listening to those you already own.

I agree with George about Lucchesini, but particularly as to the late sonatas I find Pollini's clear-cut technically peerless interpretation mandatory. Also Solomon and both Serkins.

I fully agree about Pollini's late sonatas. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 12, 2019, 04:45:08 PM
Funny things, tastes.

I'm about to buy Goode because I like what I've heard.

Whereas I've twice listened to the first movement of Sonata No.1 in the Lucchesini set, because people here keep raving about that set, and I just went "yuck" and turned it off.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 12, 2019, 05:15:51 PM
By the way, jwinter, thanks for bringing up this subject again. I had long been stuck in a non-classical rut so it's been nice to revisit Beethoven's music via CD 06 of my Lucchesini set.

And I wouldn't worry about "getting" the late works, they are certainly a challenge. Beethoven was reaching beyond himself there. I remember buying Kempff's DG CD of the popular works years ago and really enjoying it, so I quickly bought his 2CD set of the late sonatas and found that this was very different music. I was disappointed. I persisted though and one day I tried to listen to just the slow movement of Op. 106. I was smitten. So I stubbornly listened to the full two discs until things began to click. Not saying I completely get them, even after all these years, but much like the late quartets, I am sure enjoying the journey. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on July 12, 2019, 06:11:27 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 12, 2019, 04:45:08 PM
Funny things, tastes.


Whereas I've twice listened to the first movement of Sonata No.1 in the Lucchesini set, because people here keep raving about that set, and I just went "yuck" and turned it off.

That's my experience with Annie Fischer. Whatever it is other people hear in her performance, I don't hear it. I thought she came off as too calculated.

And I rather like Paul Lewis, whereas most people here are not very keen on him.
Have not heard Lucchesini.

I may have been lucky with the last three sonatas. My first encounter with them was this
[asin]B0000AH3EO[/asin]
Which unlocked them for me in very short order.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 06:11:39 PM
Many thanks for all of the kind replies! :)

Just to be clear, I am pretty comfortable with about half of the sonatas, but am still getting to really know (i.e. really understand the structure) the rest.  I wouldn't call myself a newbie by any means, but the literature out there is vast and my ears not formally trained -- but then that's half the fun!

I will keep on listening, and am happy to have such thoughtful guides to assist along the way.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 12, 2019, 06:16:45 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 06:11:39 PM
Just to be clear, I am pretty comfortable with about half of the sonatas, but am still getting to really know (i.e. really understand the structure) the rest. 

In my opinion, no one presents the structure of the sonatas more clearly than Backhaus. For that reason, I think he will be your best guide.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
Amongst the partial sets I have are both Serkin and Solomon  -- I may try one of those tomorrow :)


Thanks to all
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 12, 2019, 08:06:18 PM
Serkin is so great. Nothing flamboyant or "special", he just has immaculate taste and smarts. Probably honestly my favorite of all the people who have been discussed in the past page (except Lucchesini).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 10:15:06 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 12:46:14 PM

Since you asked ... I went through a period several years ago (back when I was a regular member of the forum) when I bought and collected a great number of recordings.  As I'm sure many folks here can relate, it's very easy to acquire a box set with 5 or 15 or 50 CDs -- it's another matter entirely to devote the time to listen to and really appreciate the music.  I acquired what I considered a good basic library of the "standard repertoire"/warhorses/classics/whatever you wish to call them, focusing mostly on orchestral music, and then went on to acquire things like kids, added job responsibility, parents with health issues, etc., which resulted in my losing some things like extraneous time, CD budget, etc.


My kids are getting older now, which frees up some time, and I'm now spending some of it getting re-acquainted (or in many cases acquainted, if I'm honest) with some of the recordings I piled up back in the day.  Up until last month I hadn't bought a classical CD in about 4-5 years.  I made an exception for the big Szell Columbia recording set, and am now very cautiously picking up a few choice items (such as the Marzendorfer Haydn set that I mentioned in the Haydn thread). 


All of which is preamble to an embarrassingly long list of cycles owned by someone who still doesn't quite "get" the later sonatas.  I clearly need to spend some time listening to what I've already got, and intend to.  I have physical copies of the following sets, off the top of my head.  I also have a couple more in MP3 format, notably Annie Fischer, and some random assortments of sonatas by other pianists.



Arrau
Backhaus stereo
Barenboim DG
Brendel III
Frank
Gilels
Goode
Gulda (Amadeo)
Heidsieck
Kempff mono
Kovacevich
Kuerti
Lewis
Nat
O'Conor
Schnabel (Naxos)


Recommendations for good places to go within the above list are very welcome, though I'll also bank information on other sets (such as Schiff) for the future. 


Thanks for listening, and for all of the recommendations and guidance!  :)

Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
Amongst the partial sets I have are both Serkin and Solomon  -- I may try one of those tomorrow :)


Thanks to all

Quite honestly I think you should give up on the late piano sonatas. If you're not enjoying any of them from that collection, they're not for you, and I wouldn't waste any more time and money.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: jwinter on July 13, 2019, 04:31:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 10:15:06 PM
Quite honestly I think you should give up on the late piano sonatas. If you're not enjoying any of them from that collection, they're not for you, and I wouldn't waste any more time and money.

Hi.  I would certainly agree, if I had taken the time to listen closely to all of the above and still came up blank... but I haven't.  George asked me which cycles I *owned* rather than which cycles I knew intimately and enjoyed.  While I've listened to bits and pieces from that long list, I've tended to focus on the familiar (think Moonlight, Waldstein, etc.).  So I know some of the sonatas well, but I've mostly avoided the late ones until recently, and am ready to remedy that -- which is why I asked if anyone had favorite interpretations they might recommend.  I wanted some guidance in attacking my large pile of partially-or-not-yet-heard CDs.  Make sense? :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 13, 2019, 04:48:58 AM
With a few exceptions, I think the role of particular (or of listening to many dozens of different) interpretation/s is vastly overrated in "understanding" or "getting" pieces of music. (The exceptions mostly concern either very performance-dependent music like a lot of music before ca. 1700 or organ music with very different instruments and styles. And very excentric or odd interpretations.)

I also do not think it helpful to think of five rather different sonatas as one block.

Nothing wrong with listening to different recordings if one already has them available, but I would not expect revelations from the 13th one. The mere familiarity that sometimes will change into some kind of "understanding" can almost as well be gained by listening to the same recording many times.

So I would not give up. Either focus on the stuff you already like well enough or "systematically attack" pieces that seem thorny or so by listening to them closely or consulting listener's guides or the like.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 13, 2019, 05:11:03 AM
If you're looking for a gateway into the late sonatas I suggest op.110, which personally I find one of the most approachable.

I tend to agree that a tonne of different interpretations aren't going to make a BIG difference. But it can be true that a piece might not click with one performance and then succeed with another.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:13:45 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 12, 2019, 04:45:08 PM
Funny things, tastes.

I'm about to buy Goode because I like what I've heard.

Whereas I've twice listened to the first movement of Sonata No.1 in the Lucchesini set, because people here keep raving about that set, and I just went "yuck" and turned it off.

I think he is great in all the named sonatas (for my taste a bit too slow in the opening movement of Hammerklavier) and the final sonatas. His Op. 110 might be one of my favorite recordings in all piano music. For my tastes it is one of the most consistent cycles and ranks among my top 3 (may be possibly my favorite).

On the topic of Serkin this box set is among the best bargains in Beethoven (I can't comment on the mastering quality, I completed my Serkin collection with the big complete Sony box):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Nrxhu7x%2BL._SY355_.jpg)

Round it out with the Sony unreleased set for the sublime Op. 110.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 05:20:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 11, 2019, 05:35:45 AM
Other than the above mentioned I have a faint spot among others for Badura-Skoda, Lucchesini and Solomon.

Have you heard Lucchesini's Beethoven concert on a fortepiano, in Bonn in 2009? With op 106.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 05:25:23 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:13:45 AM
I think he is great in all the named sonatas (for my taste a bit too slow in the opening movement of Hammerklavier)

The Hammerklavier was his big break, because Luciano Berio heard it and said something approving about it. The first recording, different from the one in the complete set, is exquisitely beautiful and refined - I don't mean to suggest that these things are positive traits of the interpretation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 13, 2019, 05:26:54 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 13, 2019, 04:48:58 AM
With a few exceptions, I think the role of particular (or of listening to many dozens of different) interpretation/s is vastly overrated in "understanding" or "getting" pieces of music. (The exceptions mostly concern either very performance-dependent music like a lot of music before ca. 1700 or organ music with very different instruments and styles. And very excentric or odd interpretations.)

I also do not think it helpful to think of five rather different sonatas as one block.

Nothing wrong with listening to different recordings if one already has them available, but I would not expect revelations from the 13th one. The mere familiarity that sometimes will change into some kind of "understanding" can almost as well be gained by listening to the same recording many times.

So I would not give up. Either focus on the stuff you already like well enough or "systematically attack" pieces that seem thorny or so by listening to them closely or consulting listener's guides or the like.

Excellent post. I agree completely.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 13, 2019, 05:28:42 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 13, 2019, 04:31:13 AM
I wanted some guidance in attacking my large pile of partially-or-not-yet-heard CDs.  Make sense? :)

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Among the ones, you own, I would in the first hand concentrate upon Backhaus, Kempff and Arrau, - and temporarily avoid Gulda and Kuerti. For the late sonatas I still think, that Pollini and Serkin may be relevant. For the other sonatas you have so many different recordings to listen to, that I do not think, more acquisitions are relevant at the moment.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 13, 2019, 05:30:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 05:20:25 AM
Have you heard Lucchesini's Beethoven concert on a fortepiano, in Bonn in 2009? With op 106.

No, where can it be had?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 05:34:15 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 13, 2019, 05:30:13 AM
No, where can it be had?

I'll send it to you later.

I'm listening to the first recording right now, I can fully understand why he made Berio prick up his ears.

(https://img.discogs.com/0abf9FNwxm7qDdmIeTL0JzA99Vo=/fit-in/600x604/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-11658054-1520167842-8170.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 13, 2019, 05:35:00 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 13, 2019, 05:11:03 AM
If you're looking for a gateway into the late sonatas I suggest op.110, which personally I find one of the most approachable.

Indeedie. One of the most melodically appealing of them all (and there is stiff competition, actually).

Quote
a piece might not click with one performance and then succeed with another.

This, too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:43:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 05:25:23 AM
The Hammerklavier was his big break, because Luciano Berio heard it and said something approving about it. The first recording, different from the one in the complete set, is exquisitely beautiful and refined - I don't mean to suggest that these things are positive traits of the interpretation.

Ahh yes I actually do have this EMI CD (even signed it for me when I saw him at Columbia) (https://i.imgur.com/gCxghfi.jpg), I am not sure how I forgot this! I have not heard it in a long time, I'll revisit it soon. It was knowing this was a good disc and the positive comments about his complete cycle that caused me to check out his complete cycle.

A while back I posted about Igor Levit's final sonatas- I've relistened to these several more times now and I am really warming to them. Major highlights being his clarity in voices and the contrapuntal elements. I've always enjoyed his Diabellis, I'm glad I didn't give up on his recordings on the sonatas. I'm keen to hear what others think of this set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 13, 2019, 05:49:11 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:13:45 AM
I think he is great in all the named sonatas (for my taste a bit too slow in the opening movement of Hammerklavier) and the final sonatas. His Op. 110 might be one of my favorite recordings in all piano music. For my tastes it is one of the most consistent cycles and ranks among my top 3 (may be possibly my favorite).

I mentioned 2 people, so I genuinely don't know which one is "he".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:51:03 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 13, 2019, 05:49:11 AM
I mentioned 2 people, so I genuinely don't know which one is "he".

Sorry, I meant Lucchesini.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 13, 2019, 06:00:54 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:43:21 AM
A while back I posted about Igor Levit's final sonatas. I'm keen to hear what others think of this set.

It has got some of Pollini's qualities (exquisite transparency and peerless technique), but in some way I find it less sublime than Pollini's, lacking some of his magic and being generally less engaging. None-the-less I intend to acquire his integral.

I own a recording of LvB's piano concerto no.1 with Levit. As expected his style fits the concerto well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 13, 2019, 06:09:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 05:34:15 AM
I'll send it to you later.

Thanks, that would be great.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 13, 2019, 06:32:14 AM
I certainly agree that it often cannot hurt to try another interpretation or even two or three. But there is a law of diminishing returns and I find it highly unlikely that something will suddenly "click" with the 13th recording. And even if this seems to be the case I believe that this is often mainly caused by familiarity and finally getting/recognizing some structure or whatever happens when we think we "get" a piece of music.

op.106 and op.111 are mostly fairly "traditional" as far as the separate movements go but on a huge scale in some cases like both adagios and the outer movements of op.106. The fugue from op.106 is for me probably still the most difficult movement of all Beethoven (with the other candidate being op.133 although in the latter case I find the rough outline easier to follow). op.111 has a rather "classical" sonata movement (after the slow introduction) and the arietta with mostly "regular" variations + coda, only on a huge scale.

The other three seem all more "rhapsodic" or "quasi una fantasia". My favorite is op.109 but I also agree that op.110 is mostly immediately appealing. Again the first movement is a sonata form, the second a very terse scherzo, the rough outlines of both should be fairly clear with some listening experience. Then follows what is often seen as some Bach hommage or even "passion and resurrection". First the recitative then the arioso dolente (klagender Gesang). This is followed by the fugue, then another variant (different key and also figuration variants) of the arioso and then the fugue, this time with the inverso version of the main theme (and later also diminuition) leading to a more homophonous, triumphal statement of the fugue theme in the end.

Although very unusual, the first mvtm. of op.109 is technically also a sonata movement. The adagio sections are the "second subject" and at their first statements first and second subjects follow immediately upon each other. Development starts right after the first adagio with the return to vivace tempo and the recap is at the dynamical climax of the development and also quite recognizable. Again follows the adagio 2nd theme and afterwards a long (compared to how short the whole thing is) coda.
Second mvtmt. is a scherzo-type or maybe a gigue-inspired without a trio. Note that the bass of the first theme appears as a "melody" in the right hand later. The quiet chords before the recap are based on this as well.
Third mvmt. variations with frequent changes in mood and tempo, including a fugato section and both an "apotheosis" of the theme with lots of trills and frills as well as a simple dacapo of the original theme in the end.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 08:35:03 AM
Quote from: amw on July 08, 2019, 07:27:14 PM
I have never heard his 111 (it's quite recent I think), I'm comparing Houstoun more to the Denon era Afanassiev in Brahms, Schubert, Schumann etc.

Someday I will do some more detailed comparisons for the last 5 sonatas, these are some of the contenders that would place highly though:

Op.109:
Maria Tipo (studio) A+, (live) A
Schnabel A
François Frederic Guy I (harmonia mundi) A-
Steven Osborne B+
Mitsuko Uchida B+

Op.110:
Gabor Csalog A-
Michaël Lévinas A-
Anderszewski B+
Osborne B+
Takahiro Sonoda III (Evica) B+
Uchida B

Op.111:
Pi-Hsien Chen A-
Eschenbach A-
Uchida B+/A- boundary
Osborne B+
Schnabel B+
Korstick B

Quote from: Mandryka on July 08, 2019, 08:04:35 PM
I've just booked a ticket to hear Leonskaja play all three sonatas together. She's getting some positive reviews with the programme so I have high expectations. It's in a couple of months.

Don't forget there are two Schnabel op 109/111

(Be sure to check Csalog's Schubert, there's something interesting going on there. Let me know if you find the booklet anywhere, if he's written for it.)


Jed Distler's review of the Csalog Schubert

QuoteKnowing Gábor Csalog's expert prowess on behalf of new music and his special affinity for Gyorgy Kurtag's works, I assumed he'd bring similar sensitivity and imagination to Schubert. Never assume. Frankly, this disc offers some of the most dour, prosaic, dry, and colorless Schubert playing I've ever heard. I'd go so far as to subtitle Csalog's performances of the D. 780 cycle "Moments Unmusicaux". His picky detaché articulation reduces No. 1's subtle assymetrical phrases to static, disconnected notes. The rhythmic liberties he imposes throughout No. 2 are such that if you transcribed his playing into notation, the results would read differently from what Schubert originally wrote. Csalog bears down on No. 3 to the point where Horowitz's garish caricature sounds supple and direct by comparison. Nos. 4 and 5 are heavy-handed, under tempo, and hopelessly square. In this context, Csalog's flowing and flexible No. 6 comes as a surprise–a shock, in fact.

As for the D. 935 Impromptus, compounded instances of fussy detail (No. 1's overworried dotted rhythms, for example), slack sense of line (No. 2), uneven finger work (No. 3's unfolding variations), and lack of dynamism (No. 4) prevent the music from taking wing. At least the concluding A major Piano Piece D. 604 gets a relaxed, ruminative reading. But this really isn't repertoire that Gábor Csalog should be recording.


Can anyone find the booklet, see if Csalog's written anything.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 13, 2019, 08:43:30 AM
Quote from: Jed Distlerthis really isn't repertoire that Gábor Csalog should be recording.

Just who the hell is Jed Distler (I know who he is, but still) to tell Csalog, or any pianist for that matter, what they should or should not be recording? I have never heard of Csalog, let alone any of his recordings, but I reckon they can't be worse than Distler's own.  ;D







Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 14, 2019, 03:44:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 12, 2019, 02:18:28 PM
In addition I want to note that quite a few of the cycles you own are known to be "eccentric." Not in a BAD way, but in a way that is to say that they're more for connoisseurs and Beethoven junkies and weirdos like me, rather than somebody who is just trying to "get" the pieces for the first time. These more oddball performers would include Gilels (very very romantic, often rather slow - I think they're totally wonderful), Heidsieck, Lewis (as described above), Nat (very "French"), Gulda (the exact opposite of Gilels), and honestly some of the stereo Backhaus too.
I don't really get the distinction here—I would consider performers like Nat, Lewis and Gulda to present the music very straightforwardly without any particular eccentricity or idiosyncrasy, unless straightforward and not over-interpreted performances can be considered themselves a form of eccentricity.

Like if I had to categorise the cycles I have as individualised vs self-effacing I'd probably make a list along the lines of -

Straightforward/non-interpreted/consistent
Paul Badura Skoda (naïve astrée)
Michaël Lévinas
Artur Schnabel
Kazune Shimizu (Sony Classical)
Paul Komen
Rudolf Serkin
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo/Brilliant Classics)
Yusuke Kikuchi
Stewart Goodyear

I no longer have, but used to:
Alfred Brendel (Vox) - still have some of the LPs but others have disappeared
Wilhelm Kempff (Stereo studio cycle) - CDs lost a long time ago, my dad possibly has them

Have heard, but opted not to get:
Annie Fischer
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Yves Nat
Mélodie Zhao

Idiosyncratic/eccentric/mannered
Paavali Jumppanen
Stephen Kovacevich
Daniel-Ben Pienaar
András Schiff
Russell Sherman
Michael Korstick

Have heard, but opted not to get:
Eric Heidsieck
Maurizio Pollini
Emil Gilels
HJ Lim
Andrea Lucchesini
François-Frédéric Guy
Glenn Gould

Like, I obviously have particular tastes that are well developed at this point, but I would still probably recommend cycles from the first group ahead of cycles from the second group to a newcomer. I guess people do have to find their own individual tastes somehow though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 14, 2019, 03:48:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 08:35:03 AM

Jed Distler's review of the Csalog Schubert
I only gave a cursory listen to the Csalog Schubert. I think it's very anti-romantic and de-sentimentalised Schubert but I disagree that the music needs romanticism or sentimentality to be comprehended. If it did we wouldn't have Sviatoslav Richter for example (although Csalog does not do much with tempo). I don't feel his style suits Schubert as well as Beethoven or Kurtág—have not heard his Chopin and not interested in that repertoire at the moment—but I would need to listen again to figure out why.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 14, 2019, 04:06:22 AM
Quote from: amw on July 14, 2019, 03:48:58 AM
. I don't feel his style suits Schubert as well as Beethoven or Kurtag

I kind of agree with you about this. I wrote to him about this recording and the Chopin, he said that the piano, a Steinway, was very bad! And that he's proud of the sound engineering on the mazurkas recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 14, 2019, 05:39:35 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 13, 2019, 06:00:54 AM
It has got some of Pollini's qualities (exquisite transparency and peerless technique), but in some way I find it less sublime than Pollini's, lacking some of his magic and being generally less engaging. None-the-less I intend to acquire his integral.

I own a recording of LvB's piano concerto no.1 with Levit. As expected his style fits the concerto well.

Yeah I can see that, in many ways Levit's are "literal" interpretations and I still think the Op. 110 is fairly run of the mill. I will be sampling his future set before purchasing. Pollini's tone never clicked with me for Beethoven.

Edit: I will listen to the earlier CD and see if that changes my mind, my DG Originals set might make the tonal qualities worse than it is.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 14, 2019, 08:00:18 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 12, 2019, 02:18:28 PM
These more oddball performers would include Gilels (very very romantic, often rather slow - I think they're totally wonderful), Heidsieck, Gulda (the exact opposite of Gilels),
I think "oddball" fits only Heidsieck here. The DG studio Gilels is sometimes very slow but not in a way that seems excentric to me (unless the very fact of slowness could count as excentricism) and I would not call him romantic. He is too severe and serious for that and his clarity in rhythm and voices reminds me somewhat of Klemperer's conducting.
Interestingly, this is one of the few cases where I was somewhat turned off by interpretations as Gilels were my first recordings for a handful of earlyish sonatas. I found them boring as a relativ beginner. When I got Gulda's Amadeo set about 2 years later (all of this took place in the late 1990s, so no easy checking another five or 50 interpretations on youtube or spotify) it was relevatory in a number of pieces.
Later on I came to appreciate most of Gilels' a lot more and I think op.109/110 are among his best and very good. Gilels' op.106 is very slow and momumental, which is not the way I imagine the piece but it is highly regarded by many.

Similarly, for Gulda, his playing is far more straightforward than his excentric persona. Sure, he can be very fast and somewhat cool or underinflected but I would not call this excentric at all.

As for the late sonatas, Gulda is among my favorites for opp.106 and 111 but I find him a little too straight and "neutral" for the more "romantic" 110 and 109. (Although op.110 was a favorite piece of the pianist along with op.111, I heard him play both of them around 1994 a few years before his death.) But generally I find Gulda a very good baseline in almost all the sonatas because his playing is so straightforward and clear.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 14, 2019, 09:27:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 12, 2019, 02:18:28 PM
I agree pretty much 100% with George's post.

In addition I want to note that quite a few of the cycles you own are known to be "eccentric." Not in a BAD way, but in a way that is to say that they're more for connoisseurs and Beethoven junkies and weirdos like me, rather than somebody who is just trying to "get" the pieces for the first time. These more oddball performers would include Gilels (very very romantic, often rather slow - I think they're totally wonderful), Heidsieck, Lewis (as described above), Nat (very "French"), Gulda (the exact opposite of Gilels), and honestly some of the stereo Backhaus too.

Again - not to insult those performers. They all are capable of achieving big highs. But they're more individualized vs. somebody like Kempff who can guide a first-timer through without seeming to have a "bias". And they also occasionally simply miss - like I love Heidsieck in most of the sonatas, but his "Pastoral" really annoys me with its weirdness.



It's like you're saying that there's a form of life, a culture, that you're part of which deems that Kempff and Schnabel are the paradigm of orthodoxy, and deviations from this are seen as eccentricity.  And what's more these deviant interpretations are only for connoisseurs, maybe because if they listen to the deviants first they may become corrupted.

It's like how some Jews say you have to study Torah for 30 years before studying Kabbalah.

I just think it's total nonsense!


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2019, 09:45:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2019, 09:27:46 AM
It's like you're saying that there's a form of life, a culture, that you're part of which deems that Kempff and Schnabel are the paradigm of orthodoxy, and deviations from this are seen as eccentricity.  And what's more these deviant interpretations are only for connoisseurs, maybe because if they listen to the deviants first they may become corrupted.

It's like how some Jews say you have to study Torah for 30 years before studying Kabbalah.

I just think it's total nonsense!
Well, it would help if you didn't twist my words so much. I didn't say anything about being part of a culture or special society; didn't say anything about orthodoxy or heterodoxy; didn't assign any moral values to sticking to any such orthodoxy or decry as immoral any "deviations"; and didn't say anything about corruption.

So yes, it is total nonsense. Also, you made it up.

What I meant was that some performers are self-effacing and attempt to "stick to Beethoven" and others have stronger personalities which interact with the music and transform it to some degree. And that those performers have different insights and, uh, "uses," to put it clinically. And that I really enjoy a lot of both.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 14, 2019, 10:38:43 AM
When you say

Quote from: Brian on July 12, 2019, 02:18:28 PM
. somebody like Kempff who can guide a first-timer through without seeming to have a "bias".

Do you mean that you and people like you find Kempff's interpretations agreeable? Or are you saying something else? 

Here's an example of Kempff at work

https://www.youtube.com/v/pA_bXCz40zU
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 14, 2019, 10:54:36 AM
In any case, Schnabel and Kempff are certainly sufficiently different that it's hard to see how they together should establish some standard or mean against which deviations would be measured.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 14, 2019, 02:12:03 PM
Oh Lordy. It shouldn't be hard to understand that some performances are closer to what is generally done and some performances are not typical of what is generally done.

That's not artistic value judgement, it's simply a basic understanding that if you're the kind of person who listens to 100 different Beethoven performances you'll discover that on any given point there aren't 100 different ways of doing it and some of them will clump!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 14, 2019, 07:56:33 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 14, 2019, 02:12:03 PM
Oh Lordy. It shouldn't be hard to understand that some performances are closer to what is generally done and some performances are not typical of what is generally done.

That's not artistic value judgement, it's simply a basic understanding that if you're the kind of person who listens to 100 different Beethoven performances you'll discover that on any given point there aren't 100 different ways of doing it and some of them will clump!

This sounds all very plausible.


Quote from: Jo498 on July 14, 2019, 10:54:36 AM
In any case, Schnabel and Kempff are certainly sufficiently different that it's hard to see how they together should establish some standard or mean against which deviations would be measured.

This sounds all very plausible.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2019, 06:18:04 AM
https://youtube.com/v/tGyX5W9a_IE

Clearly there's an improvisational component here, but put that aside. I think the combination of angularity, dynamic variation and elegance and lightness in the first movement is a great lesson even for those pianists who want to play the sonata straight.

It made me think that Jumppanen, who experimented with ornamentation in the early sonatas, should have done the same in later music too. After all, I think it was entirely predictable that his way would produce results which are not particularly enlightening in any way at all.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 22, 2019, 06:12:17 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 11, 2019, 05:35:45 AM
Other than the above mentioned I have a faint spot among others for Badura-Skoda, Lucchesini and Solomon.

Which of Paul Badura-Skoda recordings do you suggest? I did revisit Pollini and these were excellent and had that transcendental quality Levit was lacking. I still like some of the clarity in the voices he brings to the second movement of 111. The version I heard of Pollini's sounded much better than what I recall of The Originals remaster and I'm happy to have these in my late sonata rotation.

I've also been revisiting Ernst Levy after all the discussion of the final sonatas on these last few pages, and instantly reminded of how this is some of the very best late Beethoven I've heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 23, 2019, 12:42:52 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 22, 2019, 06:12:17 PM
Which of Paul Badura-Skoda recordings do you suggest?

I like both (Astrëe and Gramola) but prefer the Astrée because of the period instruments.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 23, 2019, 11:54:18 AM
AFAIS Peter Serkin recorded the 6 last sonatas on a historic instruments. This is regarded highly in some quarters but close to unlistenable to me because the instrument sounds horrible. (I will try again but the last experience was not pleasant).
There is another recording of op.106 on  a modern piano that also seems to employ a fastish tempo for the first movement (and also for the fugue). Has anyone here heard this one (and probably the one on the old instrument as well) and can comment?

(There is another P Serkin disc with famous "name" sonatas but I am not interested in any more recordings of opp.13, 57 and other usual suspects for such recitals.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2019, 12:52:50 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 23, 2019, 11:54:18 AM
AFAIS Peter Serkin recorded the 6 last sonatas on a historic instruments. This is regarded highly in some quarters but close to unlistenable to me because the instrument sounds horrible. (I will try again but the last experience was not pleasant).
There is another recording of op.106 on  a modern piano that also seems to employ a fastish tempo for the first movement (and also for the fugue). Has anyone here heard this one (and probably the one on the old instrument as well) and can comment?

(There is another P Serkin disc with famous "name" sonatas but I am not interested in any more recordings of opp.13, 57 and other usual suspects for such recitals.)

You know, I must have really bad taste because I think it's a waste of time trying to play the first movement so fast on a modern piano. Because of the speed you can't shade and nuance the music much, either dynamically or with touch and attack, and the sound of the piano is so pure and uniform that you end up with something which is without chiaroscuro or relief or colour.  In other words, something totally gauche. On a proper Beethoven piano like the one Peter Serkin uses for the other recording you've got so much more colour because each register has a different timbre, and there are so many more overtones floating around the harmonies become scrunchy. Beethoven knew what he was doing, he knew what he was writing for, and it sure wasn't a Steinway D.  Play it on a modern piano by all means but do it like Backhaus or Rzewski -- i.e ditch Beethoven's speed suggestions.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 23, 2019, 01:10:55 PM
My taste is apparently worse because I think most pianos from the period simply don't sound good. (They are more acceptable in Haydn and maybe even some Schubert, but (late) Beethoven is so far beyond them.)
But those built or restored for Brautigam sound decent whereas Serkin's Graf in the 1980s is, as I said, almost unlistenable to me, depending on my mood or the weather.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2019, 01:25:02 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 23, 2019, 01:10:55 PM
They [old pianos] are more acceptable in Haydn and maybe even some Schubert, but (late) Beethoven is so far beyond them.


I've heard this said before but no-one ever says why. Why?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 23, 2019, 10:48:13 PM
This is mainly/only personal opinion, of course. But I think the reason for me is the uses of extreme registers. The discant of the early 1800 piano sounds tinkly, the bass relatively weak. In addition, the music demands expressive cantabile sound in many of these high register passages  which is hard to impossible with the fast decay of sound. Maybe it's simply having listened to this music for around 2 decades before encountering fortepiano recordings.
Schubert does not seem to use to high register so extensively and it might simply be the particular recordings I have encountered that were more appealing to me than late Beethoven. (Again, I think the 1980s Serkin on the Graf are a somewhat special case because the thing does sound almost broken at times. I promise to listen to at least some of it later today to get a fresh impression).

PS/edit: I found some comments in the rec.music.classical.recordings archive that point towards the single modern Steinway op.106 with Serkin being far less remarkable than the one on the historic Graf, so I'll probably skip it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2019, 12:16:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 23, 2019, 10:48:13 PM
This is mainly/only personal opinion, of course. But I think the reason for me is the uses of extreme registers. The discant of the early 1800 piano sounds tinkly, the bass relatively weak. In addition, the music demands expressive cantabile sound in many of these high register passages  which is hard to impossible with the fast decay of sound. Maybe it's simply having listened to this music for around 2 decades before encountering fortepiano recordings.
Schubert does not seem to use to high register so extensively and it might simply be the particular recordings I have encountered that were more appealing to me than late Beethoven. (Again, I think the 1980s Serkin on the Graf are a somewhat special case because the thing does sound almost broken at times. I promise to listen to at least some of it later today to get a fresh impression).

PS/edit: I found some comments in the rec.music.classical.recordings archive that point towards the single modern Steinway op.106 with Serkin being far less remarkable than the one on the historic Graf, so I'll probably skip it.

If you want, PM me and I'll send it to you -- I mean the Peter Serkin on Steinway. Some people love it, though it may be because it's very well played more than that it's poetic.

I once was in a conversation with Ian Pace when he was very excited because he'd just played op 111 on a Cristofori, he said it was a revelation for the trills!

By the way I've been listening to a concert recording of Aimard in op 106 -- modern piano, slow. I think it's rather good!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on July 24, 2019, 07:31:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 23, 2019, 01:25:02 PM
I've heard this said before but no-one ever says why. Why?

For some people (meaning not necessarily for Jo, who has already posted his explanation) it may trace back to the idea that LvB was, in the late sonatas, pushing his music not merely to the limit of the instruments available to him, but past them.  Of course, that may be totally false, even just a rationalization for not using fortepianos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2019, 08:28:05 AM
Quote from: JBS on July 24, 2019, 07:31:52 AM
For some people (meaning not necessarily for Jo, who has already posted his explanation) it may trace back to the idea that LvB was, in the late sonatas, pushing his music not merely to the limit of the instruments available to him, but past them.  Of course, that may be totally false, even just a rationalization for not using fortepianos.

Again this is something I've heard said before but no one ever says in what way he was pushing the instruments. Louder, more uniform in the registers, purer in the timbres, equally tuned, more octaves  . . . it's hard to make sense of the idea if people don't elaborate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on July 24, 2019, 08:32:34 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 24, 2019, 08:28:05 AM
Again this is something I've heard said before but no one ever says in what way he was pushing the instruments. Louder, more uniform in the registers, purer in the timbres, equally tuned, more octaves  . . . it's hard to make sense of the idea if people don't elaborate.

Agreed.  Which is why I suspect there is no evidence for the idea.

We do know that he was trying to increase the volume, but the reason there was his deafness.  He was trying to hear the music for himself.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 24, 2019, 10:19:12 AM
Now I re-listened to opp. 90, 109 and 106 in P. Serkin's fortepiano (Graf) recordings. The sound was not as bad as I remembered and it also seems to me that the problematic sound has not only to do with the instrument but also with the recording.

The booklet of this re-issue stresses that the original three discs had been recorded with different microphones/setups. So one can get used to the sound but it is still distracting at times. Some dynamics are strange, seem almost like artifacts of either the recording or the response of the instrument. The latter is also true of some accents or stresses, so it is not always clear if these are choices of the player of if Serkin is sometimes struggling with the instrument.
Anyway, "unlistenable" was certainly too strong, but I fail to hear these recordings as the revelation some apparently hear in them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 24, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: JBS on July 24, 2019, 08:32:34 AM
Agreed.  Which is why I suspect there is no evidence for the idea.

We do know that he was trying to increase the volume, but the reason there was his deafness.  He was trying to hear the music for himself.

That is the crux of the matter, actually. Nobody --- and I mean, nobody --- could, can, or will ever be able to, have the slightest idea about what Beethoven was hearing in his own mind. Period. It is all conjecture, speculation and interpretation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 24, 2019, 11:25:06 AM
Beethoven was pushing the range of the contemporary piano already when he was not deaf; e.g. the Coda of the Waldstein sonata extensively uses the high register and there are also some "late" (or even Chopinesque) figurations in the 4th piano concerto. Unlike with baroque organs we simply cannot know if Beethoven appreciated the different tone colors of the registers of the fortepiano or if he would have preferred a more evenly (and overall stronger) sounding instrument. It is all a matter of degree but it seems to me that the evolution of the piano in the 19th century mostly goes in the direction of the second alternative, so it is quite plausible that this is what composers and players overall tended to prefer. Of course there is anecdotal evidence in several directions, whatever piano Chopin or Liszt preferred at certain stages of their careers.
In any case the evolution of the piano in that time clearly seems to show that hardly anyone thought that the respective contemporary instruments were "perfect for their purposes", otherwise they would not have been such developments that were seen as improvements by most musicians.

A professional pianist once told me that he clearly prefers the modern instrument because it puts fewer restrictions on his freedom to weigh and shape the sounds as a historical one (tbh I am not sure if this person ever seriously tried historical pianos).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 24, 2019, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2019, 11:25:06 AM
Beethoven was pushing the range of the contemporary piano already when he was not deaf; e.g. the Coda of the Waldstein sonata extensively uses the high register and there are also some "late" (or even Chopinesque) figurations in the 4th piano concerto. Unlike with baroque organs we simply cannot know if Beethoven appreciated the different tone colors of the registers of the fortepiano or if he would have preferred a more evenly (and overall stronger) sounding instrument. It is all a matter of degree but it seems to me that the evolution of the piano in the 19th century mostly goes in the direction of the second alternative, so it is quite plausible that this is what composers and players overall tended to prefer. Of course there is anecdotal evidence in several directions, whatever piano Chopin or Liszt preferred at certain stages of their careers.
In any case the evolution of the piano in that time clearly seems to show that hardly anyone thought that the respective contemporary instruments were "perfect for their purposes", otherwise they would not have been such developments that were seen as improvements by most musicians.

A professional pianist once told me that he clearly prefers the modern instrument because it puts fewer restrictions on his freedom to weigh and shape the sounds as a historical one (tbh I am not sure if this person ever seriously tried historical pianos).

A most excellent post (as expected from our Jo). Beethoven is reported to having rebuked Schuppanzig in these terms: "What do I care for your puking little violin when it's the Muses themselves who confide their music in me?" Are we to believe that all the while he was content with the "puking little pianos" available to him at the very same time?  ;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 24, 2019, 11:39:03 AM
And fiddles were without a doubt "mature" instruments that had been perfected already in the late 17th century or so whereas the fortepiano had only been a serious contender for around 50 years.

I am not sure and I wonder if anyone can confirm this: CPE Bach wrote a famous concerto for fortepiano AND harpsichord. I have been told that it is very difficult to get the balances right there and the harpsichord is the stronger and louder instrument!!! This was the case as late as 1780. Nevertheless composers preferred the dynamic shadings available with the fortepiano, but it clearly was not perfect.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2019, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2019, 11:25:06 AM
Beethoven was pushing the range of the contemporary piano already when he was not deaf; e.g. the Coda of the Waldstein sonata extensively uses the high register and there are also some "late" (or even Chopinesque) figurations in the 4th piano concerto. Unlike with baroque organs we simply cannot know if Beethoven appreciated the different tone colors of the registers of the fortepiano or if he would have preferred a more evenly (and overall stronger) sounding instrument. It is all a matter of degree but it seems to me that the evolution of the piano in the 19th century mostly goes in the direction of the second alternative, so it is quite plausible that this is what composers and players overall tended to prefer. Of course there is anecdotal evidence in several directions, whatever piano Chopin or Liszt preferred at certain stages of their careers.
In any case the evolution of the piano in that time clearly seems to show that hardly anyone thought that the respective contemporary instruments were "perfect for their purposes", otherwise they would not have been such developments that were seen as improvements by most musicians.

A professional pianist once told me that he clearly prefers the modern instrument because it puts fewer restrictions on his freedom to weigh and shape the sounds as a historical one (tbh I am not sure if this person ever seriously tried historical pianos).

He was exploring, you say, extremes of the high registers. If that music has as part of its narrative a dialogue, or a contrast or a tension even, between high music and low music, then I think a piano with markedly different timbres in the different registers would fit the music better. If all we have is passagework, then not necessarily. 

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 24, 2019, 12:00:13 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2019, 11:39:03 AM
And fiddles were without a doubt "mature" instruments that had been perfected already in the late 17th century or so whereas the fortepiano had only been a serious contender for around 50 years.
;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 24, 2019, 12:55:35 PM
Quote from: Florestan on July 24, 2019, 11:32:40 AM
A most excellent post (as expected from our Jo). Beethoven is reported to having rebuked Schuppanzig in these terms: "What do I care for your puking little violin when it's the Muses themselves who confide their music in me?" Are we to believe that all the while he was content with the "puking little pianos" available to him at the very same time?  ;D

As I recall the quote is "What do I care for your puny violin . . ."  - not puking violin.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 24, 2019, 01:31:03 PM
Quote from: George on July 24, 2019, 12:55:35 PM
As I recall the quote is "What do I care for your puny violin . . ."  - not puking violin.

Puny, puking --- all the same! The idea is the same: HIP be damned!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 24, 2019, 01:40:35 PM
Quote from: Florestan on July 24, 2019, 01:31:03 PM
Puny, puking --- all the same! The idea is the same: HIP be damned!  :laugh:

While I am no fan of HIP piano recordings, I find puny and puking to be entirely different things. We must have gone to different parties in high school.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on July 24, 2019, 01:51:22 PM
Quote from: George on July 24, 2019, 01:40:35 PM
While I am no fan of HIP piano recordings, I find puny and puking to be entirely different things. We must have gone to different parties in high school.  ;)

Oh, sure! Absolutely different babes!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 02:18:03 AM
Keyboards simply didn't have as many keys. THAT is how he was pushing the boundaries of the instrument.

And this whole argument about how you would want different registers is a bit mystifying. It depends entirely on what music you're wanting to write as to whether is a bug or a feature. Anyone who has ever played an instrument that has different registers, such as a clarinet, knows that the register change can either be used to advantage or a total pain in the butt. Trying to construct a universal rule about it just doesn't work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 02:18:03 AM
Keyboards simply didn't have as many keys. THAT is how he was pushing the boundaries of the instrument.

And this whole argument about how you would want different registers is a bit mystifying. It depends entirely on what music you're wanting to write as to whether is a bug or a feature. Anyone who has ever played an instrument that has different registers, such as a clarinet, knows that the register change can either be used to advantage or a total pain in the butt. Trying to construct a universal rule about it just doesn't work.

This all sounds very plausible.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 02:35:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 02:22:31 AM
This all sounds very plausible.

You keep saying that to people. I'm not sure why.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 04:04:14 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 02:35:42 AM
You keep saying that to people. I'm not sure why.

That all sounds quite plausible.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 25, 2019, 04:36:58 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 02:18:03 AM
Keyboards simply didn't have as many keys. THAT is how he was pushing the boundaries of the instrument.

This demands a closer explanation. Did he write notes, which weren't available on the keyboards he had at his disposition? Or do we know he complained that the keyboards of his time didn't have enough notes?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 05:57:23 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 25, 2019, 04:36:58 AM
This demands a closer explanation. Did he write notes, which weren't available on the keyboards he had at his disposition? Or do we know he complained that the keyboards of his time didn't have enough notes?

I can't recall which sonata it is but there is at least one where a line descends an octave lower in the recapitulation, halfway through the line, and it's thought to have been out of necessity.

I'd have to remember where I read about this issue because it's been a number of years.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 06:01:43 AM
But any pianist can see for composers generally, not just Beethoven, the way that composers take advantage of the higher and lower notes once they become available.

Why did they ever become available then? It has to be at least 1 out of 2 reasons and quite plausibly both: either composers asked for them and/or the technology improved to make those notes possible.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 06:07:19 AM
This is what Tom Beghin says

QuoteTilman Skowroneck has reminded us that starting with
the fugue from Opus 106, Beethoven stayed within the six-octave range CC to c4 for all his remaining piano works, including
the Bagatelles written after the receipt of the Broadwood, Opus
119 (starting with No. 6) and Opus 126; the Diabelli Variations,
Opus 120; and the three late Piano Sonatas, Opus 109, 110, and
111.5 There are only two exceptions, two instances of notes that
lie outside the range of the six-octave Broadwood: three high
C-sharps on the last page of Opus 109 and one high E-flat in the
first movement of Opus 111. For the latter note, however, already
in the autograph—that is, the original manuscript—Beethoven
specifies an alternative version, or ossia; it is a remarkable reflex
betraying his own private reality. The high C-sharp in Opus 109
requires more explanation, but just acknowledging this note and
finding the solution to play it spectacularly increases the relevance of the Broadwood for this sonata. I discuss the note below . . .

There is one note in Opus 109 that exceeds the six-octave range of
Beethoven's Broadwood:16 a high C-sharp that recurs three times
as part of the last variation, at the end of the third movement, just
before the final return of the unadorned cantabile theme (track 3,
10:25–10:41). After having been avoided for so long, this highest
note of the whole sonata (played by my right hand's pinkie) soars
triumphantly over a long sustained trill (played by the lower fingers of my right hand) and wild scalar flourishes that crisscross
the middle part of the keyboard (played by my full left hand). The
C-sharp is itself part of a note-by-note reminder of the theme
that has been transposed up by two octaves. It functions as a major-second appoggiatura, gorgeously stretching the reach of the
melodic line. But there is no key for it on the Broadwood. What to
do? Leave out the note? Replace it?
Here's the clincher: Nowhere else in the sonata does Beethoven
write a high C-natural, leaving open at least the option of retuning the high C as a C-sharp. I stress option over obligation, because Beethoven was known to have retorted to a well-meaning colleague, "They all like to tune it, but they shall not touch it" ("it"
in reference to his new Broadwood and "they" to his Viennese
piano-builder friends),17 and visitors had heard him playing on the
instrument despite its wretched tuning, so it seems fair to assume
that the issue of an accurate single pitch would not have been
important at all. The note in question, furthermore, is part of the
highest of registers, which would have been all but impossible for
him to hear.
For Beethoven, then, the discrepancy between imagined and
actual, realized sound could easily be lived with. But also for a
well-hearing person, there is something intensely powerful about
playing a sharp on a key that is supposed to be a natural. It is as
if at that very moment one succeeds, by sheer force of will, in
embodying those highest piano strings (all three of them, for one
key) and making them behave like one's vocal cords, stretching
what physically still feels like a minor second (one's fifth finger
gliding to the next key below) to a major-second appoggiatura
(creating a full tone or the equivalent of an additional key in between). The pianist, finding this sublime voice, self-identifies with
the piano in such a way as to transcend technological reality. (An
association with the human voice is entirely warranted: in the autograph of the sonata Beethoven had called the theme Gesang or
"song"—but changed this indication to gesangvoll, "singingly," by
the first publication.) At the same time, Beethoven would have found comfort in the option of scordatura: to take the tuning hammer and raise the pitch
of a single note on the keyboard without making another pitch unavailable in its stead. The sonata, in other words, remains executable in its entirety on the kind of keyboard that Beethoven had.
Beethoven may have been the only pianist-composer with a magnificent Broadwood in Vienna—a unique circumstance that must
have flattered his ego—but the context is still one of a composer at
his keyboard, the latter serving as a tool or interface for his ideas.
Writing the C-sharp is not a story of vision or sheer imagination:
Beethoven's "C-natural that wants to be a C-sharp" may tweak materiality, but it does so in an utterly clever and concrete way.
C-natural or C-sharp: the question had been planted long before
(or had been on Beethoven's mind), particularly in the coda of the
first movement. Listen to track 1, 03:11–03:30, where the pianist
cannot make up his mind: will he go for a major or minor tonality,
for C-sharp or C-natural? But ultimately we do not have to choose.
By the end of the sonata, sound yields to touch and imagination—a
deeply positive message for the hard-of-hearing composer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 07:06:40 AM
The first paragraph makes sense.

Beethoven wrote a note and then specified an ossia for pianos that couldn't play it. That's the bit that is most relevant to what I was saying.

The rest strikes me as a flight of fantasy trying to avoid the more obvious conclusion that Beethoven would have liked a piano with a C sharp despite not having such a piano, by constructing an elaborate argument about why Beethoven couldn't possibly have written something that wasn't 100% satisfactory on his own instrument, and so couldn't have actually meant what he wrote.

An argument that goes against the fact already acknowledged in the first paragraph that he did write something, in op.111, that couldn't be played on his own piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 25, 2019, 07:15:53 AM
In any case, I'm not at all sure that what I was talking about was one of those late sonatas and that piano. Before the Broadwood he had other pianos with a smaller range than 6 octaves.

I suspect the thing I have in mind was in Tovey's analysis of the sonatas. But for various reasons I haven't a clue where my copy of Tovey is right now so I can't check.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 17, 2019, 10:43:30 AM
First post here in almost two months.

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/886447741030.jpg)

Igor Levit's sonata has hit streaming! In my case, NML. As expected, the late sonatas volumes are his earlier 2013 recordings, and the other 27 are new. I'm sampling 11, 12, 21, and 28 (the last of which is from the original sessions, so I've probably totally heard it before).

From 11 and 12, the impression I get is of a guy who likes big tempo contrasts. The slow movements of both are sloooow; the Adagio con molto espressione in 11 really does have molto espressione, played very softly, almost like a cross between nocturne and Italian aria. The funeral march is, sorry about the pun, deadly. And not in a good way. (Compare his 7:22 here to 5:49 Pollini, 5:41 Kovacevich/EMI, 5:47 Serkin, 6:09 Lucchesini, 6:31 Annie Fischer.) It's such an enormous relief when the finale arrives that my brain barely had the processing power to notice how fleet, fast, and delicate Levit made it.

But even within movements - especially scherzo/trio - Levit plays up contrasts and gear shifts, too. It's hard to generalize about what's good and not, too, because the adagio in Op. 22 is so good and the rest of my favorite things have been bits of passage work and virtuosity that are just super, super clean and effortless-sounding.

There are softer bits of Waldstein where Levit is a little bit precious and dainty - like he's frustrated by not having a HIP instrument with a moderator to produce a mute effect - and once again the slow movement is so muted it's almost haunted. Something you'd play on a rainy day after everyone leaves a funeral. Overall, the performance is coherent, but a little too light-toned for me. Hard to describe what I mean - maybe the piano itself (not named in the booklet) is the problem, because listening to the instrument gives me a little bit of aural fatigue with all the upper-register playing. There is a big thump of Levit's foot stomping in the coda.

No. 28 is a measured, "cool" performance that, in hindsight, points out the way that Levit would soon be filling many of the other sonatas with alternations between clean staccato fast playing, impossibly polished runs, and moments of major hush/calm. Gotta respect the way he very nearly reproduces the HIP mute pedal effect on whatever instrument he's using. Also a tendency to a sort of dynamic slowness - ie, slowness in overall feel but not in moment-by-moment rhythmic energy.

The results are mixed. Overall, this is probably not my "thing", but I do think he is successful at carving out a personal style and an individual voice, and maintaining it through the 7 sonatas I've heard so far, including the final three. The new stuff is very Levit-y. If you're a fan, yay. I'm not sure yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 22, 2019, 06:19:35 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 17, 2019, 10:43:30 AM
From 11 and 12, the impression I get is of a guy who likes big tempo contrasts...

...But even within movements - especially scherzo/trio - Levit plays up contrasts and gear shifts, too.


My set arrived Friday, and I'm doing a run through in disc and hence opus number order.  Your observations on tempo contrasts and other contrasts within movements is true in the first seven sonatas.  So far his playing is never bad, but sometimes it is strangely unengaging - and at other times it is absolutely brilliant, with insights and details I've never heard before.  Levit truly does some new things - in Op 2/3 he manages to mix his contrasts into one passage where he plays the accompaniment fortissimo and then the right melody emerges in a sort of late period haze.  Op 7 is sort of all over the place, but in a good way.  He launches 10/1 with ascending arpeggios so fast they almost sound like chords, and he delivers a hefty 10/3.  On the definite no-no side, he skips the repeat in the 2/1 closer. 

I was planning on just listening to the set and abandoning lengthy note taking and descriptions - the Rasch and Williams sets made me want to give up the practice altogether - but Levit may force me to listen with utmost attention.  It's been a long while since I listened to his take on the last five sonatas, so maybe this time around I'll find them more engaging.  Or maybe Levit's novelty will pay more dividends earlier on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on October 05, 2019, 08:05:40 AM
I've been absolutely enamored by Peter Serkin playing Op. 111. This is personally the best 111 I have heard on the fortepiano, he conveys the menace, darkness and tension of the opening movement remarkably well given the limitations and plays the final movement slightly more on the slow side which is to my taste.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 05, 2019, 09:12:07 PM
Quote from: staxomega on October 05, 2019, 08:05:40 AM
I've been absolutely enamored by Peter Serkin playing Op. 111. This is personally the best 111 I have heard on the fortepiano, he conveys the menace, darkness and tension of the opening movement remarkably well given the limitations and plays the final movement slightly more on the slow side which is to my taste.

I'm a glass half full person, it's not that the piano has limitations, it's that he uses its strengths - especially the colours - well. I like it when pianists bring out the ups and downs of the first movement, give it lots of relief.

In the second movement he takes the first few variations at a speed close to the theme, someone once told me that  the idea of speeding them up comes from Schnabel. I've become so used to the Schnabel approach that I find it quite hard to listen to pianists who don't follow it, it could be just a matter of realigning expectations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on October 10, 2019, 07:20:11 PM
I listened to the first CD of Stewart Goodyear's cycle tonight.

The sonics were extremely good. The playing was very good. But the packaging is probably the chinziest I have ever met, with one exception (EMI France's 50 CD set of LvB's Masterworks).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on October 11, 2019, 10:43:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 05, 2019, 09:12:07 PM
I'm a glass half full person, it's not that the piano has limitations, it's that he uses its strengths - especially the colours - well. I like it when pianists bring out the ups and downs of the first movement, give it lots of relief.

In the second movement he takes the first few variations at a speed close to the theme, someone once told me that  the idea of speeding them up comes from Schnabel. I've become so used to the Schnabel approach that I find it quite hard to listen to pianists who don't follow it, it could be just a matter of realigning expectations.

I'm an optimist as well, and I certainly agree with your assessment on its strengths. Regarding the second movement I don't mind either approach as long as it has that transcendental quality, I find that some that do play the first two variations close to the theme turn in a slightly dry third variation, but that is something that doesn't particularly bother me. I was never mad about this section.

I've just finished watching the documentary with Tom Beghin, I have his set next up in my listening.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 13, 2019, 07:46:15 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71HiZEkf6lL._SY425_.jpg)


Martino Tirimo's complete piano works cycle arrived on Friday.  It is a stealth cycle, having been recorded between 2008 and 2018.  Mr Tirimo supplies the liner notes and Francesco Tirimo supplies the artist photos.  Works are presented in order of composition, which means no sonatas proper until disc three. 

I hope other stealth cycles arrive in the Beethoven year.  (And I really hope the Riefling set is reissued.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 24, 2019, 04:50:02 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/814QGxYN%2B3L._SX425_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81cTOHQjauL._SX425_.jpg)


Some reissues for 2020.  The Lewis set is ~$25.00 pre-order at Amazon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 24, 2019, 03:50:33 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2019, 04:50:02 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/814QGxYN%2B3L._SX425_.jpg)

Some reissues for 2020.  The Lewis set is ~$25.00 pre-order at Amazon.

Hi Todd - concerning Paul Lewis - 14 CDs for $25!  Just looked at the Fanfare Archive - Dubins loved the Concertos - three reviews of the Sonatas, 2 highly positive and one nearly so (Lynn Renee Bayley who I often do not like) - I've not listened to any of Lewis' Beethoven recordings - how does he currently rank in your esteemed ratings?  Thanks - Dave
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: J.A.W. on October 24, 2019, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 24, 2019, 03:50:33 PM
Hi Todd - concerning Paul Lewis - 14 CDs for $25!  Just looked at the Fanfare Archive - Dubins loved the Concertos - three reviews of the Sonatas, 2 highly positive and one nearly so (Lynn Renee Bayley who I often do not like) - I've not listened to any of Lewis' Beethoven recordings - how does he currently rank in your esteemed ratings?  Thanks - Dave

Last time I checked Lewis' Beethoven was in Todd's 4th tier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on October 24, 2019, 06:20:14 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 24, 2019, 03:50:33 PM
Hi Todd - concerning Paul Lewis - 14 CDs for $25!  Just looked at the Fanfare Archive - Dubins loved the Concertos - three reviews of the Sonatas, 2 highly positive and one nearly so (Lynn Renee Bayley who I often do not like) - I've not listened to any of Lewis' Beethoven recordings - how does he currently rank in your esteemed ratings?  Thanks - Dave

I liked Lewis much more than Todd...but even if he's not as good as I think he is, it's definitely a bargain for $25.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on October 24, 2019, 06:40:14 PM
I think Lewis is better with Schubert than the Beethoven sonatas.  But, it is a good price, and his is a decent set, but since they are available on Spotify, there is no reason for me to buy his cycle at any price.

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 25, 2019, 04:44:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 24, 2019, 03:50:33 PMI've not listened to any of Lewis' Beethoven recordings - how does he currently rank in your esteemed ratings?


Fourth tier, with variability.  He plays well, it's just that I find a good number of the sonatas a bit lifeless.  His Op 106 is top notch, though.


Quote from: San Antone on October 24, 2019, 06:40:14 PM
I think Lewis is better with Schubert than the Beethoven sonatas.


Agree, and his Schubert is even better in person. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 08, 2019, 05:51:53 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BrlUamj4L._SY425_.jpg)


Oh.  Fuck.  Yeah.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on November 08, 2019, 05:56:00 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 08, 2019, 05:51:53 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BrlUamj4L._SY425_.jpg)


Oh.  Fuck.  Yeah.

What's the release date? Levitt is still sitting in my pile to be listened to, so I can wait.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 08, 2019, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 08, 2019, 05:56:00 PM
What's the release date? Levitt is still sitting in my pile to be listened to, so I can wait.


January 17th in Germany.  A proper Beethoven year release.  I have every expectation that Say's cycle will smoosh Levit's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on November 08, 2019, 06:09:07 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 08, 2019, 05:59:03 PM

January 17th in Germany.  A proper Beethoven year release.  I have every expectation that Say's cycle with smoosh Levit's.

It will certainly have, as the famous violinist Sherlock Holmes said, points of interest.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 08, 2019, 06:22:59 PM
Levit is idiosyncratic and individual and I don't like it at all. Say is gonna be even weirder and I'm gonna hate probably like half of it but love the other half.

Totally unrelated, God, they need to do a Heidsieck Big Box.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on November 08, 2019, 06:44:44 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 08, 2019, 05:51:53 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BrlUamj4L._SY425_.jpg)


Oh.  Fuck.  Yeah.

Fuck yeah indeed!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on November 08, 2019, 11:19:26 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2019, 06:22:59 PM
Say is gonna be even weirder and I'm gonna hate probably like half of it but love the other half.

I think there isn't much to say.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 09, 2019, 04:35:50 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2019, 06:22:59 PMTotally unrelated, God, they need to do a Heidsieck Big Box.


Yes.  A Warner box and a Japan market box of his panoply of releases there.

Also needed: a Leif Ove Andsnes box.  I am not at all secretly hoping that other pianists drop surprise complete cycles next year, and Andsnes is one of them.  I know his Beethoven Journey comprised the concertos, but I hope the journey continues.

Other pianists I'd like to see surprise full sonata cycles from: Ragna Schirmer, Michael Endres, YES, Saleem Abboud Ashkar (a surprise in that he finishes early), Dasol Kim (to augment the last three sonatas I will be hearing in person in January; maybe he has been recording his live performances of the cycle!), Alessio Bax, Nicholas Angelich, Bertrand Chamayou, and William Youn.

And I eagerly await Krystian Zimerman's recording of the last three sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 09, 2019, 06:46:49 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 09, 2019, 04:35:50 AM

Yes.  A Warner box and a Japan market box of his panoply of releases there.

Also needed: a Leif Ove Andsnes box.
Given the way Warner-Erato is boxing up everything, I assumed an Andsnes box was such a given that I didn't grab any of those clearance items in that sale a few months ago.

If he does a Beethoven box, Sony will probably sit on it until after everyone buys Levit...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 09, 2019, 07:22:28 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 09, 2019, 06:46:49 AM
Given the way Warner-Erato is boxing up everything, I assumed an Andsnes box was such a given that I didn't grab any of those clearance items in that sale a few months ago.

If he does a Beethoven box, Sony will probably sit on it until after everyone buys Levit...


Andsnes turns 50 next year.  It would be a suitable occasion for a big box and a convenient coincidence with the LvB anniversary year. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: The new erato on November 09, 2019, 07:29:45 AM
Beethoven will be the focus of the Rosendal chamber music festival of which Leif Ove is rhe director next year.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 09, 2019, 07:35:12 AM
Quote from: The new erato on November 09, 2019, 07:29:45 AM
Beethoven will be the focus of the Rosendal chamber music festival of which Leif Ove is rhe director next year.


Here's to hoping that live recordings of the Violin Sonatas and Piano Trios come out of that event, with the director at the keyboard.  (On the trios front, one of the big releases of next year will be the FFG/Phillips/Papavrami set, and surely any fan of the music wants at least two high end sets next year.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 09, 2019, 08:10:47 AM
Hmm, I just noticed something I'd forgotten about. The back case of my Freire/Chailly Concerto 5 says "Freire and Chailly begin a Beethoven cycle..."

Chailly has departed Leipzig. I wonder if they ever recorded concertos 1-4 or not. Google search informs me that our Jens speculated, on Forbes, that they did not and the project was abandoned.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 09, 2019, 08:14:26 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 09, 2019, 08:10:47 AM
Hmm, I just noticed something I'd forgotten about. The back case of my Freire/Chailly Concerto 5 says "Freire and Chailly begin a Beethoven cycle..."

Chailly has departed Leipzig. I wonder if they ever recorded concertos 1-4 or not. Google search informs me that our Jens speculated, on Forbes, that they did not and the project was abandoned.


If they did, and it is released, I will buy reflexively.  Of course, if Freire recorded Chopsticks, I'd probably buy that.  Freire is another pianist I'd love to hear in the complete sonatas, though the probability that he would even entertain the idea is nil.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on November 09, 2019, 08:38:21 AM
I would really welcome a Heidsieck box as well, so many of those EMI recordings are very hard to find on CD or LP only.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 16, 2019, 10:56:27 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51O0aMWcofL._SY425_.jpg)


[Cross-posted from WAYLTN]

Valery Afanassiev playing three of ol' Ludwig van's most famous sonatas.  Afanassiev's main thing here is playing the music slower than slow.  Op 13 is dreadful.  Heavy, plodding, ugly, lacking energy, and including a lot of banging, it's almost as bad as Gould's worst.  Somehow, though, the even more ridiculously slow 27/2 (9:58/3:25/9:14!) comes off reasonably well, if one takes it as a serious attempt at musical absurdism.  Afanassiev achieves musical stasis in the opening movement and a strange sense of scale in the closer.  Op 57 comes in at over a half-hour, and much of it sounds stiff, ugly, and ponderous, but in some passages he lets rip to exciting effect.  He whizzes right by Pogorelich and straight into Barto territory in terms of self-indulgence, but he lacks the American's tonal finesse and fluidity.  Afanassiev's discs usually sell at a premium, but I picked this up for an old school Naxos price (ie, $6), so it was worth it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on November 17, 2019, 01:40:35 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 16, 2019, 10:56:27 AM
He whizzes right by Pogorelich and straight into Barto territory in terms of self-indulgence, ...

As one might deduce from the album title.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 17, 2019, 02:12:07 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 17, 2019, 01:40:35 AM
As one might deduce from the album title.

Since the titular phrase has become associated with a response to terrorism, it seems doubly appropriate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on November 17, 2019, 01:50:47 PM
But did he write the booklet essay? He penned one of the worst liner notes I've ever read, for an album of piano duets on the Dux label.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 17, 2019, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 17, 2019, 01:50:47 PM
But did he write the booklet essay? He penned one of the worst liner notes I've ever read, for an album of piano duets on the Dux label.


Yep, thirteen pages' worth.  The "To Drain The Swamp" section even includes mention of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.  I did not read all of the notes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2019, 05:48:03 AM
In preparation for the upcoming Beethoven year, and having recently completed three more cycles, I decided to refresh my tiers so that I can make sure any new cycles that pop up in the next dozen or so months can be properly grouped into the most objective ratings system known to humanity.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Younwha Lee
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira
Igor Levit
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Jonathan Biss
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Binns
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Llŷr Williams
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch
Martino Tirimo   
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Robert Benz
Robert Taub
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland


Eighth Circle of Hell
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: rachmaninoff on January 14, 2020, 04:55:39 AM
When I was 20 ( I'm now 57 ), I was looking for an Lp Box of the 32 sonatas; I went to the shop :  two Lp boxes were available : VOX Brendel and......ROBERT RIEFLING (box !!!! Valois).

I choose RIEFLING....
I few years later, I sell RIEFLING....

Now, I have more than 50 boxes....I will kill myself to have sell Robert..

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2020, 12:15:51 PM
Quote from: rachmaninoff on January 14, 2020, 04:55:39 AM
When I was 20 ( I'm now 57 ), I was looking for an Lp Box of the 32 sonatas; I went to the shop :  two Lp boxes were available : VOX Brendel and......ROBERT RIEFLING (box !!!! Valois).

I choose RIEFLING....
I few years later, I sell RIEFLING....

Now, I have more than 50 boxes....I will kill myself to have sell Robert..

I've only heard him play Ludus Tonalis, IMO he makes the music come off the page.  He's a pianist I'd like explore.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on January 14, 2020, 04:05:41 PM
I have him in the last 3 Beethoven sonatas + two concertos. The most similar artist that comes to mind is Edwin Fischer. So he's at a pretty high level basically.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 18, 2020, 04:09:29 AM
News from International Piano Magazine:

"Jonathan Biss completes his nine-year Beethoven odyssey recording all 32 piano sonatas."  A box soon?

"Israeli pianist Boris Giltburg is marking the 250th anniversary of Beethoven's birth this year by learning all 32 of the composer's piano sonatas in chronological order. "  I suppose a recording will emerge?

"Italian soundboard manufacturer Ciresa has launched Resonance Piano, a wooden soundboard that can enhance the sound of any digital piano. Digital signals are fed through the soundboard to give them with a more natural character." 

"Arcadi Volodos reveals that he possesses what is surely the most refined and spectacular technique of any living pianist."    ::)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on January 18, 2020, 04:20:22 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 18, 2020, 04:09:29 AM

"Arcadi Volodos reveals that he possesses what is surely the most refined and spectacular technique of any living pianist."    ::)


Is he recording a cycle?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 18, 2020, 04:36:43 AM
Quote from: hvbias on January 18, 2020, 04:20:22 AM
Is he recording a cycle?

That quote was regarding his recent Schubert recording. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on January 18, 2020, 05:50:17 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 18, 2020, 04:09:29 AM
News from International Piano Magazine:

"Jonathan Biss completes his nine-year Beethoven odyssey recording all 32 piano sonatas."  A box soon?

"Israeli pianist Boris Giltburg is marking the 250th anniversary of Beethoven's birth this year by learning all 32 of the composer's piano sonatas in chronological order. "  I suppose a recording will emerge?

"Italian soundboard manufacturer Ciresa has launched Resonance Piano, a wooden soundboard that can enhance the sound of any digital piano. Digital signals are fed through the soundboard to give them with a more natural character." 

"Arcadi Volodos reveals that he possesses what is surely the most refined and spectacular technique of any living pianist."    ::)

8)

About Giltburg
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/article/boris-giltburg-embarks-on-beethoven-32-project-for-beethoven-year

QuoteStarting in January, each sonata will be filmed and shared on Giltburg's YouTube channel. Supplementary material documenting his journey of discovery will be posted on his bespoke 'Beethoven 32' website, as a means of sharing with audiences, via written and video material, the daily challenges and obstacles in learning these pinnacles of the piano repertoire across such a short period of time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on January 18, 2020, 07:57:33 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 18, 2020, 04:09:29 AM
"Arcadi Volodos reveals that he possesses what is surely the most refined and spectacular technique of any living pianist."    ::)

8)

Reveals through his playing or verbally?  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 18, 2020, 08:04:00 AM
Quote from: George on January 18, 2020, 07:57:33 AM
Reveals through his playing or verbally?  :)

That example might be a good addition to Cato's Grammar Grumbles thread.  I first read it as an incredibly egotistic statement, but it might have just been some badly written blurb out of his PR machine.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on January 18, 2020, 08:09:45 AM
I think the refinement of his playing is more  impressive on record than, for example,  Sokolov and Pletnev and Pogorelich and Uchida and Zimerman in concert. But there's a problem here -- I've heard Sokolov and Pletnev and Pogorelich and Uchida and Zimerman in concert, I know what they sound like. I've only heard Volodos on record, and so what I'm hearing is partly the result of studio processing. It may be quite false.  On record he's like a latter day Benno Moiseiewitsch.

Hamelin is interesting to think about in this context. As is Anderszewski -- they make a nice noise in real life. Anderszewski  especially.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on January 19, 2020, 09:02:48 PM
Apparently K.M. Moo's first volume goes on sale today. 
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wTOH3ThtL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 23, 2020, 08:23:07 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on January 19, 2020, 09:02:48 PM
Apparently K.M. Moo's first volume goes on sale today. 
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wTOH3ThtL._SS500_.jpg)

And the cover is made to look intentionally to look like they went on sale today, 50 years ago?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 23, 2020, 09:50:07 AM
I think the cover is super cool. But I am a young person who never had vinyl, so...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on January 23, 2020, 10:16:57 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on January 19, 2020, 09:02:48 PM
Apparently K.M. Moo's first volume goes on sale today. 
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wTOH3ThtL._SS500_.jpg)

Terrible sound.  Sounds like it was recorded in a closet on a practice piano.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ritter on January 29, 2020, 06:50:12 AM
Cross-posted from the New Releases thread:

Quote from: ritter on January 29, 2020, 06:49:04 AM
I think this hasn't been posted here yet:

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_300/dg4838250.jpg?1579525565)
Yes, it's new recordings (40 years later!).
Feb. 28th release date, as per Presto Classical.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on January 29, 2020, 11:16:08 AM
So far streaming Fazil Say's Beethoven sonata cycle has been a thorough, consistent delight - some of his most polished and mature, but at the same time tastefully eccentric, playing from his career. Kind of belongs on a shelf of Elite Eccentrics with the likes of Heidsieck and Gilels. Just popping in now to say that the "Pastoral" has way, way more humming and grunting than the other recordings I've heard so far.

EDIT: Miswrote that first sentence. Not the most polished playing by anyone. Just by Say.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 02, 2020, 08:26:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 29, 2020, 11:16:08 AM
So far streaming Fazil Say's Beethoven sonata cycle has been a thorough, consistent delight - some of his most polished and mature, but at the same time tastefully eccentric, playing from his career. Kind of belongs on a shelf of Elite Eccentrics with the likes of Heidsieck and Gilels. Just popping in now to say that the "Pastoral" has way, way more humming and grunting than the other recordings I've heard so far.

EDIT: Miswrote that first sentence. Not the most polished playing by anyone. Just by Say.
It's less than $20 for flac quality download on presto, so seriously considering it. But three things make me pause: 1) I think Gilels is the worst series  I have or have heard and you put them in the same breath, 2) He grunts a lot in 109 (#30), so much so that I kept looking around at first thinking someone was in the room with me, and 3) while his playing is good, I don't like many of his choices. I don't need it, but it might be fun to have another to compare against, especially one so recent.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 02, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 02, 2020, 08:26:48 AM
It's less than $20 for flac quality download on presto, so seriously considering it. But three things make me pause: 1) I think Gilels is the worst series  I have or have heard and you put them in the same breath, 2) He grunts a lot in 109 (#30), so much so that I kept looking around at first thinking someone was in the room with me, and 3) while his playing is good, I don't like many of his choices. I don't need it, but it might be fun to have another to compare against, especially one so recent.
Gilels comparison is only in terms of how different they are from normal - not specifically in approach (Say is not super slow). If the grunting bothers you, there are a lot of performances in the set which will have you looking over your shoulder frequently!

If your goal is to buy just one or two new sets this year, I'm sure there will be another dozen by the year's end and Todd will come by to rank them all. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 02, 2020, 12:00:05 PM
I really enjoyed Say's single CD of some of the name sonatas, but a recent cursory sampling on Spotify of the new set didn't make me want to rush to hear more.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2020, 12:31:18 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 02, 2020, 08:26:48 AM
It's less than $20 for flac quality download on presto, so seriously considering it. But three things make me pause: 1) I think Gilels is the worst series  I have or have heard and you put them in the same breath, 2) He grunts a lot in 109 (#30), so much so that I kept looking around at first thinking someone was in the room with me, and 3) while his playing is good, I don't like many of his choices. I don't need it, but it might be fun to have another to compare against, especially one so recent.

I listened to 109. It was fun, you know, he can play piano and it's not bad music.

As with op 111 I found myself appreciating a certain playful sparkle sometimes, a twinkle in his eye. And there was one moment, 15 seconds,  in the variations which was really rapt, concentrated - lovely.

But, and this is a deal breaker, there's loads of big dynamic contrasts, great crashing accented loud chords right next to quiet music, to me it just sounded vulgar and ugly and blustery and idiotic in his hands.

The piano doesn't seem to me to have much going for it by way of timbre.

Nevertheless I was not not glad to have heard it once.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 04, 2020, 05:26:58 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2020, 12:31:18 PM
But, and this is a deal breaker, there's loads of big dynamic contrasts, great crashing accented loud chords right next to quiet music, to me it just sounded vulgar and ugly and blustery and idiotic in his hands.


I listened to his Naive recording of Op. 111 a while back and this is how I'd describe it as well. For out there style, most of what I've heard from him isn't at the level of Heidsieck or Sherman... hard to put into words but his playing is almost lacking a certain imagination they bring.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 08, 2020, 06:08:51 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71k%2BgePm9PL._SY425_.jpg)


I've worked my way through Say's cycle, and it's close to what I expected, but not quite what I'd hoped for in some respects.  Much of the playing is more refined than expected, and Say's earlier wild man ways are less evident.  I've not done A/Bs with the five LvB sonatas he recorded before, but I will at some point.  To be sure, Say's playing is quite willful much of the time, and most of the time it works well.  His cycle makes for a good overall contrast with Igor Levit.  Levit is willful at times, and while his piano playing is more refined and secure, his willfulness seems more contrived and studied.  Say's more than occasionally seems more spontaneous and makes more sense in the context of his playing.  Like any other cycles, there are relative highpoints.  For me, 2/3, 13, 28 (with great contrast between the first two movements), 31/3, 53, and 101 stand out.  101, in particular, works very well, with some slow tempo and less clangorous than expected playing in the march.  Not a top tier cycle, but second tier.  I need to do another run-through before Lifschitz arrives.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 08, 2020, 01:20:11 PM
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ALPHA591.jpg)

The first time I checked this out, I got thru 30 seconds of 106 before getting bored. For whatever reason I'm now enjoying it more. It has good character but fails to take off completely due to the slightly too relaxed tempo, I think.

edit: Switched to Op. 111 after the first movement of 106. 111 is much better. I'm not sure whether the 106 turned out the way he intended all along, or he doesn't have the technique to play it as fast as it's supposed to be played, but in either case it feels like a miscalculation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 10, 2020, 04:10:15 PM
Decided to have a cataclysmic Monday evening so I played Lucchesini in the Adagio of the Hammerklavier at a blistering volume. **** me. After it ended, opened my eyes, went to lift my laptop lid and Windows was nagging me about an update, back to reality.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 20, 2020, 05:25:43 PM
Today I saw this set of Beethoven sonatas (all recorded live) in a local store:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91egnMclc7L._SL500_.jpg)

Having never heard of this pianist (or this set) before I did some Googling and found this interesting interview with the pianist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_SaT2Zm6oc

I listened to much of the video walking around the record store and, after listening to some samples on Presto (just listen to unique take on the opening to the Les Adieux sonata), (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8724043--beethoven-32-sonatas) decided to pick up the set. In the interview, he talks about researching different editions, likening the process to that of a private investigator who is seeking out the hidden truths in the music. He also talks about focusing a bit more on bringing out the emotion in the music. And he gives praise to Annie Fischer's set. These three things really made me want to hear his interpretations.

Tonight I listened to his Op. 2 sonatas and really enjoyed them. His playing is confident, clear and unique without being eccentric. The slow movements have great emotional depth and drama, while his outer movements (with one exception) are powerfully strong, while remaining classical in style. His performances are a joy to listen to, as one gets the impression that the pianist really is inside this music and he is playing it in a way that is distinctly unique to him. I hear elements of Backhaus, Annie Fischer and Schnabel in his playing, though he certainly sounds younger than Backhaus and more grounded than Annie Fischer and Schnabel.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 20, 2020, 07:42:35 PM
Quote from: George on February 20, 2020, 05:25:43 PM
Today I saw this set of Beethoven sonatas (all recorded live) in a local store:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91egnMclc7L._SL500_.jpg)

Having never heard of this pianist (or this set) before I did some Googling and found this interesting interview with the pianist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_SaT2Zm6oc

I listened to much of the video walking around the record store and, after listening to some samples on Presto (just listen to unique take on the opening to the Les Adieux sonata), (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8724043--beethoven-32-sonatas) decided to pick up the set. In the interview, he talks about researching different editions, likening the process to that of a private investigator who is seeking out the hidden truths in the music. He also talks about focusing a bit more on bringing out the emotion in the music. And he gives praise to Annie Fischer's set. These three things really made me want to hear his interpretations.

Tonight I listened to his Op. 2 sonatas and really enjoyed them. His playing is confident, clear and unique without being eccentric. The slow movements have great emotional depth and drama, while his outer movements (with one exception) are powerfully strong, while remaining classical in style. His performances are a joy to listen to, as one gets the impression that the pianist really is inside this music and he is playing it in a way that is distinctly unique to him. I hear elements of Backhaus, Annie Fischer and Schnabel in his playing, though he certainly sounds younger than Backhaus and more grounded than Annie Fischer and Schnabel.

Newly available on Spotify - listening now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Alek Hidell on February 22, 2020, 01:43:31 PM
Quote from: George on February 20, 2020, 05:25:43 PM
Today I saw this set of Beethoven sonatas (all recorded live) in a local store:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91egnMclc7L._SL500_.jpg)

I know others have already said it, but that really is an atrocious cover - especially for Alpha, a label that quite often produces handsome cover art. It would be bad regardless, but the little figure of Lifschitz pasted in there - what is he doing, shaking his fist at the giant inescapable presence of LvB? - is what really makes it awful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 22, 2020, 10:40:03 PM
I'm listening to the complete set via Spotify.

I have a number of complete sets including (in no particular order) Schnabel, Annie Fischer, Kempff (mono) Barenboim (EMI) Ciani etc. I also have partial sets from a number of other pianists. My go to LvB pianists are Fischer, Hungerford and Richter

In the last decade some of the newer brigade have released cycles but to me they offered nothing new. Yes, they were very well played but I felt that they were uninspired. LvB to a formula? I'm including the likes of Lewis, Biss, Roscoe etc. Others were just too quirky - Jumpannen, Korstick and others.

This is the first cycle in a long time to make me sit up and listen. It's a very personal cycle and I like a lot of what Lifschitz does. As George mentioned, many of the slow movements are absolutely gorgeous. I don't find it annoyingly idiosynchratic. There is no "look at me, look at me, aren't I great" element. At the moment I'm just before the Pathetique.

On another note, all the previous 7 sonatas were recorded live. I hope this is the case for the whole set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas KONSTANTIN LIFSCHIPZ
Post by: rachmaninoff on February 23, 2020, 12:29:22 AM
Hello,

After hearing the first sonatas op 2, very personal,  brutal, vertical, forget the coherence of the all, he makes  me nervous. I have never experienced a listening wisch make me nervous... listen to the first mvmt of the third (op 2 n° 3)....don't understand want he do , not good at all for me.

I will continue of course listen until the n° 32 but....

I can't wait for TODD is judgement....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 02:33:11 AM
Lifschitz takes 2 minutes and 50 seconds for the opening "arietta" theme of op 111/ii. I don't know much about Beethoven but isn't that a bit of a long time? The first variation is full of surprising inner voices. Things don't speed up till the 3rd variation. Then the phone rang and I got distracted.

Nicely recorded.

Quote from: rachmaninoff on February 23, 2020, 12:29:22 AM
forget the coherence of the all,

That's what I heard in var 1 of op 111/ii. I like that sort of thing so I shall be exploring.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 23, 2020, 05:05:57 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 22, 2020, 10:40:03 PM
I'm listening to the complete set via Spotify.

I have a number of complete sets including (in no particular order) Schnabel, Annie Fischer, Kempff (mono) Barenboim (EMI) Ciani etc. I also have partial sets from a number of other pianists. My go to LvB pianists are Fischer, Hungerford and Richter

In the last decade some of the newer brigade have released cycles but to me they offered nothing new. Yes, they were very well played but I felt that they were uninspired. LvB to a formula? I'm including the likes of Lewis, Biss, Roscoe etc. Others were just too quirky - Jumpannen, Korstick and others.

This is the first cycle in a long time to make me sit up and listen. It's a very personal cycle and I like a lot of what Lifschitz does. As George mentioned, many of the slow movements are absolutely gorgeous. I don't find it annoyingly idiosynchratic. There is no "look at me, look at me, aren't I great" element. At the moment I'm just before the Pathetique.

On another note, all the previous 7 sonatas were recorded live. I hope this is the case for the whole set.

Well said. Glad you are enjoying the set, Holden. Yes, the whole set was recorded live. I listened to the Op. 10 works yesterday and really enjoyed them.

He did a few interviews, which are posted on youtube, about performing and recording Beethoven that I have enjoyed:

https://youtu.be/UpbM-UkFVSo

https://youtu.be/HdzE5gKbmtI
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 23, 2020, 05:18:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 02:33:11 AM
Lifschitz takes 2 minutes and 50 seconds for the opening "arietta" theme of op 111/ii. I don't know much about Beethoven but isn't that a bit of a long time? The first variation is full of surprising inner voices. Things don't speed up till the 3rd variation. Then the phone rang and I got distracted.
There's a lot of extreme slowness throughout. Friday I listened to Op 31 No 1, where his slow movement is 14'. He sustains it so beautifully that it doesn't ever feel like a stretch, but he also loses a good deal of the humor of the music's exaggerations.

I'm quite excited for the 28' Waldstein as that's one where I like a big romantic approach.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 09:18:43 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 23, 2020, 05:18:39 AM


Waldstein. . . I like a big romantic approach.

It's epic.   I was glad to have heard it. No sense of

Quote from: rachmaninoff on February 23, 2020, 12:29:22 AM
forget the coherence of the all,

forunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view I guess.

The sound is good  . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 23, 2020, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 22, 2020, 10:40:03 PM
This is the first cycle in a long time to make me sit up and listen. It's a very personal cycle and I like a lot of what Lifschitz does. As George mentioned, many of the slow movements are absolutely gorgeous. I don't find it annoyingly idiosynchratic. There is no "look at me, look at me, aren't I great" element. At the moment I'm just before the Pathetique.

On another note, all the previous 7 sonatas were recorded live. I hope this is the case for the whole set.

One thing I love about his playing is he does unique things, but in such a convincing way that it makes sense. In the interviews on youtube, he mentions time and time again all the research he has done with the scores. The guy is thoughtful and thorough in his approach, I suppose that is something that makes it work so well. He keeps it fresh, but in an informed way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 24, 2020, 05:36:30 PM
I listened to CD 03 from Lifschitz's set over the last few days. I listened to it twice because the first time it didn't click for me like the first two discs did. His playing continues to be unique, but on CD 03 the (slower than usual) tempos and (at times, odd) phrasing don't work for me as well as they did for his first two discs. I enjoyed his Op. 7 the most on the disc, but his Pathetique sonata was disappointing. I plan to listen to more of the set later in the week. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: J.A.W. on February 25, 2020, 02:15:43 AM
Found the Lifschitz Beethoven set (new) for 30 euros plus change and couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 25, 2020, 05:55:20 AM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on February 22, 2020, 01:43:31 PM
I know others have already said it, but that really is an atrocious cover - especially for Alpha, a label that quite often produces handsome cover art. It would be bad regardless, but the little figure of Lifschitz pasted in there - what is he doing, shaking his fist at the giant inescapable presence of LvB? - is what really makes it awful.
Agreed. I have very limited CD storage space (cuz I bought too many) and now try to restrict physical purchases to either rarities or a small handful of record labels which treat the physical product with great care and try to make something worth holding and keeping. Alpha is typically very much one if those labels but this box artwork is truly gross.

Also, after reading George's comments about listening to various YouTube interviews, I honestly hoped the booklet would have an essay by or interview with the pianist. Instead he just offers a dedication. Oh well.

Good thing it's on streaming!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 10:51:25 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 23, 2020, 05:18:39 AM
There's a lot of extreme slowness throughout. Friday I listened to Op 31 No 1, where his slow movement is 14'. He sustains it so beautifully that it doesn't ever feel like a stretch, but he also loses a good deal of the humor of the music's exaggerations.

I'm quite excited for the 28' Waldstein as that's one where I like a big romantic approach.

Maybe not that long in op 111/ii after all, I just saw that Peter Serkin (Graf) takes about the same for the theme.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 25, 2020, 04:41:30 PM
Quote from: ritter on January 29, 2020, 06:49:04 AM
I think this hasn't been posted here yet:

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_300/dg4838250.jpg?1579525565)
Yes, it's new recordings (40 years later!).
Feb. 28th release date, as per Presto Classical.

Really special Op. 109 for me. Weirdly he sort of rushes, even clips some of the phrases yet it still sounds divine and transcendental. The same continues through the rest of 109. His tone is also much more to my taste here with a rich burnished tone compared to the steeliness of his earlier recording. Not a fan of either recording of his in 110 and 111 didn't hit the same highs for me as the earlier recording. Lots of humming throughout :)

Really wonderful atmosphere around the recordings too, brilliantly mic'd by DG, loads of ambient information about the hall and plenty of direct sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 25, 2020, 09:08:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 02:33:11 AM
Lifschitz takes 2 minutes and 50 seconds for the opening "arietta" theme of op 111/ii. I don't know much about Beethoven but isn't that a bit of a long time?
Here is an ordered list of (most of the) recordings I have, since I was in the middle of splitting each one up into its variations to compare timings anyway. Favourites highlighted.

Edwin Fischer - 1:53
Michel Dalberto - 2:01
Yeol Eum Son - 2:06
Zhou Xiao-Mei - 2:06
Paul Badura-Skoda [Astrée/Arcana] - 2:11
Cédric Pescia - 2:15
Annie Fischer [EMI] - 2:16
Mitsuko Uchida - 2:17
András Schiff [Broadwood] - 2:18
Olga Pashchenko - 2:18
Robert Riefling - 2:18
Annie Fischer [BBC] - 2:19
Alexei Lubimov - 2:20
Penelope Crawford - 2:20
Fazıl Say [Warner] - 2:24
Alexei Volodin - 2:24
Dina Ugorskaja - 2:27
Gábor Csalog - 2:28
András Schiff [Bösendorfer] - 2:29
Paul Komen - 2:30
Kazune Shimizu - 2:30
Michaël Lévinas - 2:32
Einar Steen-Nøkleberg - 2:36
Yusuke Kikuchi - 2:36
Charles Rosen - 2:37
Bruce Hungerford - 2:42
Pi-Hsien Chen - 2:45
me - 2:45
Artur Schnabel - 2:48
Paavali Jumppanen - 2:49
Claudio Arrau [Music & Arts] - 2:50
Michael Korstick - 2:52
Grigory Sokolov - 2:55
Peter Serkin - 2:57
Takahiro Sonoda [Evica] - 3:12
Daniel-Ben Pienaar - 3:12
Christoph Eschenbach - 3:27
Anatol Ugorski - 3:38

You may judge for yourself whether 2:50 counts as a "long time" in this context.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 25, 2020, 11:25:15 PM
Not sure if this was already linked, the Igor Levit is available for listening (for some time) at the Netherlands Radio

https://www.nporadio4.nl/cds/igor-levit-beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 11:44:30 PM
Quote from: amw on February 25, 2020, 09:08:12 PM
Here is an ordered list of (most of the) recordings I have, since I was in the middle of splitting each one up into its variations to compare timings anyway. Favourites highlighted.

Edwin Fischer - 1:53


I've always had this theory that Zoltan Kocsis was Edwin Fischer in a previous life, so I thought I'd see what happens on this recording

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51UuUPL9uHL._SY445_.jpg)

and lo and behold, proof that there is metempsychosis

Zoltan Kocsis 1:58

It's very good! Let me say that again, it's very good. If anyone wants the sound files of the whole DVD they can PM me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 25, 2020, 11:48:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 11:44:30 PM
I've always had this theory that Zoltan Kocsis was Edwin Fischer in a previous life, so I thought I'd see what happens on this recording

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51UuUPL9uHL._SY445_.jpg)

and lo and behold, proof that there is metempsychosis

Zoltan Kocsis 1:58

It's very good! Let me say that again, it's very good. If anyone wants the sound files of the whole DVD they can PM me.
Count me as interested!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Marc on February 25, 2020, 11:50:51 PM
Quote from: amw on February 25, 2020, 11:48:21 PM
Count me as interested!

Me too.

(I should clean my PM archives, but I keep forgetting it. :-[)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on February 26, 2020, 11:28:13 AM
Quote from: hvbias on February 25, 2020, 04:41:30 PM
Really special Op. 109 for me. Weirdly he sort of rushes, even clips some of the phrases yet it still sounds divine and transcendental. The same continues through the rest of 109. His tone is also much more to my taste here with a rich burnished tone compared to the steeliness of his earlier recording. Not a fan of either recording of his in 110 and 111 didn't hit the same highs for me as the earlier recording. Lots of humming throughout :)

Really wonderful atmosphere around the recordings too, brilliantly mic'd by DG, loads of ambient information about the hall and plenty of direct sound.
Listening now. Definitely quite interesting - the speed but with warmth. Sounds live, I occasionally hear some coughing in the distance in addition to Pollini's own humming.

EDIT: To add to amw's listing above, Pollini's arietta theme is 2:14.

EDIT II: Also I am super interested in the Kocsis.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 26, 2020, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 26, 2020, 11:28:13 AM
Listening now. Definitely quite interesting - the speed but with warmth. Sounds live, I occasionally hear some coughing in the distance in addition to Pollini's own humming.

EDIT: To add to amw's listing above, Pollini's arietta theme is 2:14.

EDIT II: Also I am super interested in the Kocsis.

Yeah it's live, this is why I complemented DG's engineers as there is virtually no audience noise (or maybe they paid the eye watering amount his tickets go for and decided to stay quiet!); it sounds like the mics are placed closer to the piano with the amount left hand weightiness I'm hearing. But at the same time enough reverberant information from the hall that I get a feel for the recording space that it's in. Pollini does play quite briskly and one reason 111 is not entirely to my taste is how he plays variation 4 and 5. Variation 3 is also a bit lacking in the real reckless abandonment but that is fine, Gulda or maybe Grinberg might be the only ones I've heard that truly relishes this section.

If this is unedited, and I am lead to believe it might be since there are a few extremely minor mistakes here and there, then Pollini still possess tremendous skill. I'd love to see him play this program live.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 26, 2020, 12:46:05 PM
Quote from: amw on February 25, 2020, 09:08:12 PM
Here is an ordered list of (most of the) recordings I have, since I was in the middle of splitting each one up into its variations to compare timings anyway. Favourites highlighted.

Edwin Fischer - 1:53
Michel Dalberto - 2:01
Yeol Eum Son - 2:06
Zhou Xiao-Mei - 2:06
Paul Badura-Skoda [Astrée/Arcana] - 2:11
Cédric Pescia - 2:15
Annie Fischer [EMI] - 2:16
Mitsuko Uchida - 2:17
András Schiff [Broadwood] - 2:18
Olga Pashchenko - 2:18
Robert Riefling - 2:18
Annie Fischer [BBC] - 2:19
Alexei Lubimov - 2:20
Penelope Crawford - 2:20
Fazıl Say [Warner] - 2:24
Alexei Volodin - 2:24
Dina Ugorskaja - 2:27
Gábor Csalog - 2:28
András Schiff [Bösendorfer] - 2:29
Paul Komen - 2:30
Kazune Shimizu - 2:30
Michaël Lévinas - 2:32
Einar Steen-Nøkleberg - 2:36
Yusuke Kikuchi - 2:36
Charles Rosen - 2:37
Bruce Hungerford - 2:42
Pi-Hsien Chen - 2:45
me - 2:45
Artur Schnabel - 2:48
Paavali Jumppanen - 2:49
Claudio Arrau [Music & Arts] - 2:50
Michael Korstick - 2:52
Grigory Sokolov - 2:55
Peter Serkin - 2:57
Takahiro Sonoda [Evica] - 3:12
Daniel-Ben Pienaar - 3:12
Christoph Eschenbach - 3:27
Anatol Ugorski - 3:38

You may judge for yourself whether 2:50 counts as a "long time" in this context.

Which Edwin Fischer recording is this? The one from Salzburg comes in at the time you stated, he also has a studio recording from a couple of months earlier that I've never heard (I guess vinyl only or Japan CD). I find myself in agreement with many of the bolded selections, in particular Hungerford, Schnabel and Peter Serkin. I don't know some of the others.

I thought I'd revisit Sonoda (Evica) since I've praised some of his late sonatas in the past (I really like 110 Evica), here I couldn't get over how glacial the Arietta is. I can't even imagine how Ugorski does it, but we're treated to a Bernard Michael O'Hanlon review of it so I will give it a go  :laugh:

Here is Lucchesini clocking in at 2:30 if you haven't heard it, I know this box can be hard to find. My personal favorite. https://www.mediafire.com/file/t1nq9knh9llodpc/111arietta.flac/file
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on March 02, 2020, 01:33:39 AM
Just realised I forgot about this thread lol

Quote from: hvbias on February 26, 2020, 12:46:05 PM
Which Edwin Fischer recording is this?
The only one that's widely available (Salzburg 28 June 1954).

QuoteI find myself in agreement with many of the bolded selections, in particular Hungerford, Schnabel and Peter Serkin. I don't know some of the others.

I thought I'd revisit Sonoda (Evica) since I've praised some of his late sonatas in the past (I really like 110 Evica), here I couldn't get over how glacial the Arietta is. I can't even imagine how Ugorski does it, but we're treated to a Bernard Michael O'Hanlon review of it so I will give it a go  :laugh:
To be honest I very rarely listen to the Ugorski recording, but I do like the Sonoda/Evica and the Eschenbach (whose last movement overall comes in at 22:26; unlike Sonoda, he attempts to play all the variations at that extremely slow tempo). Ugorski actually succeeds at playing all of the variations at his chosen slow tempo. This is harder than it sounds because as the music increases in volume and decreases in note values your natural tendency is to speed up. (Sonoda's Arietta is 3:12; his Variation I is 2:40; his Variation II is 1:42. This is exceptional only in its extremism.)

Quote
Here is Lucchesini clocking in at 2:30 if you haven't heard it, I know this box can be hard to find. My personal favorite. https://www.mediafire.com/file/t1nq9knh9llodpc/111arietta.flac/file
I've never bothered to acquire the Lucchesini cycle despite having it fairly easily available from several sources & streaming sites—not sure why. It has certainly received enough praise but I think I always found him a bit too romanticised.

Some example timings for Op. 111/ii—theme and variations 1-5:

Schiff [Broadwood] - 2:19 / 1:57 / 1:45 / 2:01 / 5:28 / 3:59
Uchida - 2:17 / 2:21 / 1:57 / 2:03 / 5:31 / 4:25
Hungerford - 2:42 / 2:02 / 1:36 / 1:57 / 5:13 / 4:10
Rosen - 2:38 / 2:25 / 2:31 / 2:17 / 6:06 / 4:05
Peter Serkin - 2:57 / 2:24 / 1:52 / 1:43 / 5:44 / 4:22
Pashchenko - 2:19 / 1:51 / 1:48 / 2:12 / 4:53 / 3:47
Schnabel - 2:48 / 1:56 / 1:53 / 1:55 / 5:19 / 4:22
Eschenbach - 3:27 / 3:17 / 2:33 / 2:11 / 6:06 / 4:52
Ugorski - 3:39 / 3:49 / 3:34 / 2:44 / 7:50 / 5:20
Sokolov - 2:56 / 2:28 / 2:43 / 2:11 / 6:21 / 4:55
Edwin Fischer - 1:53 / 1:43 / 1:36 / 2:03 / 4:32 / 3:23
Sonoda [Evica] - 3:12 / 2:40 / 1:42 / 2:02 / 5:23 / 3:56
me - 2:45 / 2:03 / 2:10 / 2:24 [with mistakes] / 5:56 / 3:40—now that I know this I'll work on speeding up the Arietta a bit in line with the rest of the variations, because I prefer the relative evenness of tempo in the Fischer conception..... and also practicing variation 3 a lot
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on March 03, 2020, 02:55:13 PM
Quote from: amw on March 02, 2020, 01:33:39 AM
Just realised I forgot about this thread lol
The only one that's widely available (Salzburg 28 June 1954).
To be honest I very rarely listen to the Ugorski recording, but I do like the Sonoda/Evica and the Eschenbach (whose last movement overall comes in at 22:26; unlike Sonoda, he attempts to play all the variations at that extremely slow tempo). Ugorski actually succeeds at playing all of the variations at his chosen slow tempo. This is harder than it sounds because as the music increases in volume and decreases in note values your natural tendency is to speed up. (Sonoda's Arietta is 3:12; his Variation I is 2:40; his Variation II is 1:42. This is exceptional only in its extremism.)
I've never bothered to acquire the Lucchesini cycle despite having it fairly easily available from several sources & streaming sites—not sure why. It has certainly received enough praise but I think I always found him a bit too romanticised.

I was listening to Ernst Levy, another very special Op. 111 for me and he also comes in at 3:12 in the Arietta, but the entire movement works for me (too lazy to break down the times by variation). So I will have to come back to Sonoda Evica and hear the entire thing. Ugorski might take considerably more time ;D Here is Levy in the Arietta: https://www.mediafire.com/file/u169xoxadwl8u7o/levy111.flac/file

Your post also tipped me off to an Annie Fischer recording I didn't know existed, the BBC one since it wasn't on the more ubiquitous BBC Legends label. I have that incoming and look forward to hearing it.

On Lucchesini's cycle as a whole, the way I have this pictured in my head is if Paul Badura-Skoda's Astree is perfectly classical and Arrau (EMI/60s Philips) is high romanticism, with Kempff (any of them) as a perfect balance between classical and romantic the Lucchesini cycle is slightly past Kempff in being a bit more romantic. It has replaced Annie Fischer's Hungaroton as now being my overall favorite.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 03, 2020, 04:43:32 PM
I am still listening through the Lipschitz set for the first time. I am finding a bit more ups and downs in the set than I expected (or wanted.) But boy when he is on, he is as good as anyone, tonight I am listening to the disc that has Op. 78, 79, 81a, 90 and 101. His Op. 78 is the best I have heard.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:17:31 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/LV_SGKc9kUTJmIbNYIwQ28RJ9cVKFInUUtwv4_jsBu8RoKVKPVdCNCVOVbw1cjw1s0fcz_HZ2nWGlwbIYzPgUa6TBNOl4YpTqnaEK9m2)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71rCNiy1nsL._AC_SX569_.jpg)


The Honma I knew was coming.  The Nuber is new to me.  Anyone heard it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:38:14 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91egnMclc7L._SY425_.jpg)


Slow.  Lotsa slow stuff in this set.  One can glean that from some of the timings, not least the 54'+ Hammerklavier, with its 25'+ Adagio.  How one feels about slow Beethoven may inform the decision to buy or listen to this set.  Not me, of course, I preordered the first day the set was avaialble and waited anxiously for it to arrive.  Out of the gate, the first two Op 2 sonatas sounded spontaneous, at least in places - aided by the live recording - but they also sounded a bit heavy for the material and a bit off-kilter, with extra-slow slow movements.  With Op 2/3, Lifschitz finds his groove, or rather my taste aligns with his approach, and he demonstrates that he can do the virtuosity thing.  This sonata starts a fairly long chain of high-grade, if slightly idiosyncratic takes on the sonatas.  Op 7 is really very fine, with perfectly judged opening and slow movements, all three Op 10 sonatas sound just swell, as does the weighty Op 13, the almost but not quite overdone Op 14 sonatas, and the extremely fine Op 22.  Here, somewhat against expectations, Lifschitz's slow approach to the slow movement really pays dividends, and the whole sonata is superb.  Everything cruises along nicely until Op 31/1.  The strange thing is that I thought all of Op 31 would work splendidly. Lifschitz adds spontaneity to an obviously well thought approach, and I started to think of him as basically a spontaneous neo-Kuerti.  Except for 31/1.  I'm not  a huge fan of Kuerti's cycle overall, but he delivers one of the great 31/1s, but Lifschitz whiffs.  The opening movement is a bit broad, but the 14'+ slow movement is just too much.  And the finale also drags.  31/2 is also too slow, but Lifschitz's tendency to play dynamic extremes well helps here, though the slow movement is again too slow.  31/3 is good, with more energy, and the Op 49 sonatas are nice enough.  The 50s are mixed.  The tendency toward slowness makes the Waldstein drag a bit in places, and the stark dynamic contrasts are not nuanced enough.  This latter tendency also informs Op 54, and Op 57 at times comes close to banging, though in person I'm sure it would work.  Things then sort of cruise along at a good or very good level until Op 101, which sounds too heavy, kludgy, and almost sloppy in the fugal music, something which reappears in the finale movement of Op 106, which itself has a saggy, way too slow slow movement.  The day I listened to the last three sonatas I also happened to revisit Fazil Say's recent set, and listening to both on the same day offers a fairly stark contrast.  Both tend toward individuality almost to a fault, but there's something more right about what Say does.  It just jells more, and the playing is more refined.  To be sure, there are good things in the last three works from Lifschitz, but they're not as elevated as I like, and the half-hour plus Op 111 is again too slow for me.  So, as with his set of Violin Sonatas with Daishin Kashimoto, a mixed bag, with some really good stuff in the first half of the cycle.

Sound for the live recordings is excellent, but not the best avaialble.

Third tier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on April 12, 2020, 07:48:32 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:17:31 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/LV_SGKc9kUTJmIbNYIwQ28RJ9cVKFInUUtwv4_jsBu8RoKVKPVdCNCVOVbw1cjw1s0fcz_HZ2nWGlwbIYzPgUa6TBNOl4YpTqnaEK9m2)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71rCNiy1nsL._AC_SX569_.jpg)


The Honma I knew was coming.  The Nuber is new to me.  Anyone heard it?

Not only have I not heard it, I've never (to the best of my knowledge) heard of him. Who is he?

That FFG CD you posted in the Purchases thread...is that a new one-off or an old one?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:52:36 AM
Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2020, 07:48:32 AMWho is he?


Michael Nuber.  Now you and I know exactly the same amount of information about the pianist.


Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2020, 07:48:32 AMThat FFG CD you posted in the Purchases thread...is that a new one-off or an old one?


Older, when he recorded for Naïve.  It's his second Op 106 recording.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on April 12, 2020, 08:12:16 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:52:36 AM

Michael Nuber.  Now you and I know exactly the same amount of information about the pianist.
.

Sign of a true completist is when you get a cycle from a pianist not even Google knows.

Google's top pick for the name is this guy
https://www.hudl.com/profile/10760632/Michael-Nuber

No, wait, the pianist shows up on the second page of results

https://www.schwaebisch-gmuend.de/veranstaltung/klavierabend-michael-nuber-9265.html

Reading that, I predict more Liszt in your future.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 12, 2020, 08:18:37 AM
Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2020, 08:12:16 AM
Sign of a true completist is when you get a cycle from a pianist not even Google knows.


I searched around a bit last night and could not find the cycle available to purchase anywhere.  The JAW Records website is not functional yet (if it ever will be).  The YouTube selection I listened to was, shall we say, uninspiring.  But I still want the cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on April 12, 2020, 08:33:29 AM
Here is what I gleaned from his website (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&sp=nmt4&u=http://www.michael-nuber.de/index.html&usg=ALkJrhhs-0ZImSSn3tIC01e4meZNfJ3AcA).

"Michael Nuber is a music raptor at the piano and you can understand, when you listen to him, how the past fabulous characters Liszt and Paganini enchanted their audience so completely that they were even credited with non-terrestrial powers." (Rems newspaper)

Here is an overview of all the CDs (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&sp=nmt4&u=http://www.michael-nuber.de/cdcat.html&usg=ALkJrhhieXK-4k7WeZojV_Ej_4P8_DB9gA) released so far , which you can order directly at my concerts or here by email (mail@michael-nuber.de).

For decades I have given up all recordings because the audience (my contact person!) is missing from studio recordings. It was only in 2006 that I agreed to a live recording during the performance of Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto (with Joachim Wagner as conductor). I realized that this recording has amazing musical substance. After Joachim Wagner offered me to record all of my concerts in Schwäbisch Gmünd - as live concert recordings - many recordings of masterpieces by Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt, Brahms, Debussy, by numerous Russian but also almost unknown composers, which are gradually released by the JAW-classics company.

Short bio:
He was repeatedly engaged by His Royal Highness, the Duke of Württemberg. Participation in the festival "European Church Music" in Schwäbisch Gmünd with a Liszt program, engagements at the palace concerts in Tettnang, Altshausen, Hermsdorf / Dresden and Lindach art castle.

His extensive repertoire focuses on Bach, Beethoven (all 32 piano sonatas), Schubert, Chopin (complete works), Liszt, Scriabin and Debussy.

Since the age of 16, Michael Nuber has also dedicated himself to composition. Since then, in addition to numerous piano works, he has written several sonatas and album pages for flute and piano, a fantasy for cello and piano, a trio for piano, flute and cello, a sonata for two pianos, a duo for piano four hands, songs and a four-movement fantasy for Piano as a psychogram of a young woman who is in a serious life crisis.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 12, 2020, 08:35:09 AM
A music raptor in service to the Duke of Württemberg?  Sign me up!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 12, 2020, 08:44:28 AM
Quote from: San Antone on April 12, 2020, 08:33:29 AMHere is an overview of all the CDs (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&sp=nmt4&u=http://www.michael-nuber.de/cdcat.html&usg=ALkJrhhieXK-4k7WeZojV_Ej_4P8_DB9gA) released so far , which you can order directly at my concerts or here by email (mail@michael-nuber.de).


He has a vast repertoire.  I wonder if he hangs out with Claudio Colombo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on April 12, 2020, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:38:14 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91egnMclc7L._SY425_.jpg)

Slow.  Lotsa slow stuff in this set.  One can glean that from some of the timings, not least the 54'+ Hammerklavier, with its 25'+ Adagio.  How one feels about slow Beethoven may inform the decision to buy or listen to this set.  Not me, of course, I preordered the first day the set was avaialble and waited anxiously for it to arrive.  Out of the gate, the first two Op 2 sonatas sounded spontaneous, at least in places - aided by the live recording - but they also sounded a bit heavy for the material and a bit off-kilter, with extra-slow slow movements.  With Op 2/3, Lifschitz finds his groove, or rather my taste aligns with his approach, and he demonstrates that he can do the virtuosity thing.  This sonata starts a fairly long chain of high-grade, if slightly idiosyncratic takes on the sonatas.  Op 7 is really very fine, with perfectly judged opening and slow movements, all three Op 10 sonatas sound just swell, as does the weighty Op 13, the almost but not quite overdone Op 14 sonatas, and the extremely fine Op 22.  Here, somewhat against expectations, Lifschitz's slow approach to the slow movement really pays dividends, and the whole sonata is superb.  Everything cruises along nicely until Op 31/1.  The strange thing is that I thought all of Op 31 would work splendidly. Lifschitz adds spontaneity to an obviously well thought approach, and I started to think of him as basically a spontaneous neo-Kuerti.  Except for 31/1.  I'm not  a huge fan of Kuerti's cycle overall, but he delivers one of the great 31/1s, but Lifschitz whiffs.  The opening movement is a bit broad, but the 14'+ slow movement is just too much.  And the finale also drags.  31/2 is also too slow, but Lifschitz's tendency to play dynamic extremes well helps here, though the slow movement is again too slow.  31/3 is good, with more energy, and the Op 49 sonatas are nice enough.  The 50s are mixed.  The tendency toward slowness makes the Waldstein drag a bit in places, and the stark dynamic contrasts are not nuanced enough.  This latter tendency also informs Op 54, and Op 57 at times comes close to banging, though in person I'm sure it would work.  Things then sort of cruise along at a good or very good level until Op 101, which sounds too heavy, kludgy, and almost sloppy in the fugal music, something which reappears in the finale movement of Op 106, which itself has a saggy, way too slow slow movement.  The day I listened to the last three sonatas I also happened to revisit Fazil Say's recent set, and listening to both on the same day offers a fairly stark contrast.  Both tend toward individuality almost to a fault, but there's something more right about what Say does.  It just jells more, and the playing is more refined.  To be sure, there are good things in the last three works from Lifschitz, but they're not as elevated as I like, and the half-hour plus Op 111 is again too slow for me.  So, as with his set of Violin Sonatas with Daishin Kashimoto, a mixed bag, with some really good stuff in the first half of the cycle.

Sound for the live recordings is excellent, but not the best avaialble.

Third tier.

Though I think more highly of his set that you do, I agree that it is a mixed bag. Very disappointing considering how well he plays the early works.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on April 19, 2020, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 08, 2020, 06:08:51 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71k%2BgePm9PL._SY425_.jpg)


I've worked my way through Say's cycle, and it's close to what I expected, but not quite what I'd hoped for in some respects.  Much of the playing is more refined than expected, and Say's earlier wild man ways are less evident.  I've not done A/Bs with the five LvB sonatas he recorded before, but I will at some point.  To be sure, Say's playing is quite willful much of the time, and most of the time it works well.  His cycle makes for a good overall contrast with Igor Levit.  Levit is willful at times, and while his piano playing is more refined and secure, his willfulness seems more contrived and studied.  Say's more than occasionally seems more spontaneous and makes more sense in the context of his playing.  Like any other cycles, there are relative highpoints.  For me, 2/3, 13, 28 (with great contrast between the first two movements), 31/3, 53, and 101 stand out.  101, in particular, works very well, with some slow tempo and less clangorous than expected playing in the march.  Not a top tier cycle, but second tier.  I need to do another run-through before Lifschitz arrives.

I listened to the first five sonatas, not much unusual in the first two, I'd honestly not be able to tell they were Fazil Say (if the humming weren't there) if they came up on one of my random playlists and I was listening blind, but by the third sonata I've got to agree with you this is special. I've never heard anyone play the Scherzo like that, overall exceptional. Some more willful playing pops up in the fourth sonata but in a good way with a really lovely Allegro. I am looking forward to hearing more, he has really mellowed out from his earlier recordings. I've also listened to his Nocturnes CD, again nothing really weird or too interventional about them, they're quite normal. These are a stark contrast to his older recordings, he sounds like he doesn't have anything to prove.

I like Warner's "richer" recording/micing, it suits Say's style.

Edit: his liner notes are an... interesting read. I can see how he drew some inspiration from Schnabel with how he plays faster and slower movements and the overall big picture approach
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2020, 04:32:23 AM
Quote from: hvbias on April 19, 2020, 05:46:07 PM
Edit: [Fazil Say's] liner notes are an... interesting read.

Speaking of which, could anyone please be so kind as to let me have the booklet in digital format?

TD, not a listen but a reading:

https://www.academia.edu/3245627/In_Defense_of_Moonlight (https://www.academia.edu/3245627/In_Defense_of_Moonlight)

A thoroughly researched and entirely convincing (to me at least) scholarly essay arguing that Rellstab's infamous sobriquet of the Op. 27/2 is not only apt but have much more profound musical and literary reasons than one might think. Worth a reading even, or especially, by purists who would have nothing of this moonshine (pun).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2020, 04:54:44 AM
The reason people don't want it is because it relates to one movement out of three.

Of course there are plenty of other nicknames that suffer from a similar problem.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2020, 05:33:20 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 24, 2020, 04:54:44 AM
The reason people don't want it is because it relates to one movement out of three.

The essay touches on this point as well. I'd say read it, you won't regret. Even if eventually you disagree (which is of course okay), it's a well written and well researched piece of cultural history.

Quote
Of course there are plenty of other nicknames that suffer from a similar problem.

Yes, even if the composer himself ascribed the nickname. Take Tchaikovsky's 1st Symphony, for instance, "Winter Dreams". Only the first two movements bear corresponding titles, and of those two I find the second greatly misleading. Land of Desolation, Land of Mists, really, Gospodin Tchaikovsky? For the life of me I can't hear anything remotely desolated of foggy in that amiable, gentle, bittersweet-but-more-sweet-than-bitter Adagio cantabile ma non tanto . If I were to give it a nickname, it'd be Land of Youthful Hopes, Land of Old-Age Nostalgia. On the other hand, Dreams of a Winter Journey for the 1st mvt is just perfect. I can vividly picture a three-bell-necklaced-horse-sleigh riding through thetypical  Russian wintery landscape, carrying a team of jolly and merrymaking ladies and gentlemen accompanied by gypsies playing the balalaikas and going from one host to another.

Bottom line, though:

What's in a name etc.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on April 24, 2020, 06:56:15 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 24, 2020, 04:32:23 AM
Speaking of which, could anyone please be so kind as to let me have the booklet in digital format?




See if this link works for you.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/73/000132437.pdf
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2020, 07:08:43 AM
I'm not going to read the Moonlight essay because it requires sign-up. I've had enough of sites wanting my data for even the briefest interaction. Deleting accounts is usually so much harder than creating them.

Edit: Anyway, I accept that there are far worse nicknames out there than this one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2020, 07:14:14 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 24, 2020, 07:08:43 AM
I'm not going to read the Moonlight essay because it requires sign-up.

Drat! I forgot that! It doesn't take much time, though, and they don't ask for your credit card data for the basic level subscription --- otherwise I wouldn't have signed up myself. And it's a treasure trove of scholarly essays on music and composers., so you might consider it. And no, I don't get any money for every new subscriber.  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2020, 07:15:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2020, 06:56:15 AM

See if this link works for you.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/73/000132437.pdf

Works perfectly! Thank you very much, Howard, you're the man!  :-*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: GioCar on April 25, 2020, 01:14:04 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 24, 2020, 07:08:43 AM
I'm not going to read the Moonlight essay because it requires sign-up. I've had enough of sites wanting my data for even the briefest interaction. Deleting accounts is usually so much harder than creating them.

Edit: Anyway, I accept that there are far worse nicknames out there than this one.

You have to sign-up only if you want to download the pdf. For reading, just scroll down the page of that link.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2020, 02:30:19 AM
Quote from: GioCar on April 25, 2020, 01:14:04 AM
You have to sign-up only if you want to download the pdf. For reading, just scroll down the page of that link.

Thank you. What a strangely set up page, with a big gap! It feels as if they want to trick you into thinking you need to sign up and hide the fact the article is actually there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2020, 03:03:19 AM
Okay, I didn't read it word for word but did scan it fairly thoroughly and for the sense of it. And it's quite a good piece of work. It makes a good case how not just that piece, but that sort of music had moon associations.

Also... I now absolutely want to program op.27/2 with at least 2 different Chopin works in C sharp minor.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on April 25, 2020, 07:04:07 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 24, 2020, 04:32:23 AM
Speaking of which, could anyone please be so kind as to let me have the booklet in digital format?

I see Mandryka has you sorted, sorry for not seeing it earlier, I made a decision to spend less time online after reading some interesting articles on these yoots that are glued to the web.

Have you been listening to Fazil Say? I've ground to a halt with 31/3, I was a bit let down with the Pastoral Sonata, up until then I was consuming it at rapid rate. There are many ways to interpret this, two I feel that really push things with the ebb and flow nature of this sonata are Russell Sherman and Schnabel but for me Say misses the mark.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Yashar on May 01, 2020, 01:29:29 PM
Mei-Ting Sun is self-recording the 32 Sonatas live (unedited takes) from his apartment in NYC, and posting them on YouTube, part of a series he calls the "COVID-19 Beethoven Cycle." He first performed the cycle in 2011.

Posted on his Facebook page:
"So, I got a bit bored and thought, what do we need? More Beethoven! To celebrate his 250th anniversary, I'm recording a sonata a day, and releasing them during the month of May for the COVID-19 Beethoven Cycle! Stay tuned - first one due on May 1st (next Friday)!"

The audio recording quality isn't exactly SOTA and the piano is a bit out of tune (he tunes it himself).
But it's an interesting memento of the times we are living through - and made better with Beethoven.

Here is the first video of Op.2 No.1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HJJ1XipMIA&list=PLYwjN0ID38AdGAl5citpMK0bw7qFQJOft&index=1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 11, 2020, 04:44:17 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wLYkOiOjL._SS425_.jpg)


This Beethoven year has so far seen few intriguing piano sonata recordings issued, and since I own all of the complete sets being reissued, I am forced to contemplate and buy single discs from whenever, including war horse compilations, which I generally dislike.  I found Jae-Hyuck Cho's Beethoven disc while poking around on 7Digital, so I went for it because why not.  Cho was born in ChunCheon, South Korea, started studying as a wee lad, then moved to New York to study some more, most notably under Jerome Lowenthal at Juilliard.  So he's got the academic credentials.

His warhorse disc includes Opp 13, 57, and 53, in that order, with a Schumann-Liszt finisher.  Op 13 starts off conventionally enough.  The Grave opener is strong, but not overwhelming, and the Allegro di molto e con brio is played at a proper tempo, has some nice dynamic contrasts, and some insistent and reasonably steady left hand playing.  The return of the opening material sounds a bit weak and doesn't offer much contrast, but it is inoffensive.  The Adagio cantabile is competently played, steady, and the cantabile playing in the outer sections is nice.  A bit of contrast is introduced in the middle section.  The concluding Rondo is a bit slow and tame.  Some of the right hand playing sounds tonally attractive, though.  Op 57 starts off with an Allegro assai where Cho plays with clean articulation and nice pacing, but dynamics are limited and attack softened a bit.  It's a bit polite.  The Andante con moto is pleasant, with a somewhat leisurely pace, soft or soft-ish playing, and a bit of tonal beauty.  The finale comes off better, with Cho adding more heft to his left hand playing, and moving at a decent pace.  Overall, though, the sonata is kind of bland and forgettable.  Op 53 follows, and Cho opens the Allegro con brio with some pep, though it seems a bit louder than it should, which in turn means that dynamic contrasts later in the movement are muted a bit, but it's good.  The Introduzione sounds contemplative and attractive, and it segues to a Rondo where Cho plays with ample energy, drive, clarity, and nice left hand sforzandi that still seem polished a bit too much.  Overall, it's the best sonata on the disc, but even it is just like a drop of water in a lake of Waldstein recordings.  The Widmung encore starts off gently and beautifully and picks up steam until the end.  Not bad.  Overall, meh.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 22, 2020, 07:46:13 AM
(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/0000108/8/2/530.jpg)


Ikuyo Nakamichi's full set of sonatas and concertos in one handy, expensive box.  It is one of the 2-3 best recorded cycles out there, so if sonics are important, it is worth consideration.  For now, White Rabbit Express or a similar service is the only way to get the set out of Japan.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on May 28, 2020, 03:08:46 PM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/c79e1f434f42ad13bb5a93f1ce3c0f67/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

I have a good feeling about this.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 28, 2020, 05:17:14 PM
Quote from: amw on May 28, 2020, 03:08:46 PM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/c79e1f434f42ad13bb5a93f1ce3c0f67/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

I have a good feeling about this.


Excellent news.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2020, 05:43:10 PM
OQR? QOR?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 28, 2020, 05:50:14 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2020, 05:43:10 PM
OQR? QOR?


Maybe her and her husband's own label?  The copyright is in his name.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Itullian on May 28, 2020, 05:56:04 PM
I just picked up 2 cycles, Bodura-Skoda and the Biret Beethoven Edition.
Bodura-Skoda is excellent.
The Biret is excellent as well. Beautifully recorded and inludes Liszt's transcriptions and the piano concertos.
Really enjoying it.  :)

ps how does one insert pictures here. Can't figure it out  :-[
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on May 28, 2020, 06:07:54 PM
Quote from: Itullian on May 28, 2020, 05:56:04 PM
The Biret is excellent as well. Beautifully recorded and inludes Liszt's transcriptions and the piano concertos.


Beautifully recorded?  Has it been remastered?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Itullian on June 03, 2020, 02:57:39 PM
Don't know, but I'm on my fourth disc and it sounds great to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 17, 2020, 02:19:06 PM
I am enjoying the Scherbakov cycle so damn much. Listening to the Waldstein right now. His style is that he just puts his head down and plays Beethoven, but with guts and determination and a little bit of need for speed. There are little moments of pure technical showoffery which I've never heard dispatched so easily (1:53 in first movement).

Overall, it doesn't feel "personal" per se compared to someone like Lucchesini, he's more of the objective school. But he's a little too light and classical to be categorized as a "banger." Is a soft banger a thing? Compared to Kempff, he's flashier and faster. Compared to Annie, he's a little less rigid/Teutonic. Maybe the best comparison I can make in my own personal scope of knowledge is that Scherbakov is the answer to the question, "what if Jeno Jando was an absolute badass motherf*cker?"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2020, 03:01:06 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 17, 2020, 02:19:06 PM
I am enjoying the Scherbakov cycle so damn much. Listening to the Waldstein right now. His style is that he just puts his head down and plays Beethoven, but with guts and determination and a little bit of need for speed. There are little moments of pure technical showoffery which I've never heard dispatched so easily (1:53 in first movement).

Overall, it doesn't feel "personal" per se compared to someone like Lucchesini, he's more of the objective school. But he's a little too light and classical to be categorized as a "banger." Is a soft banger a thing? Compared to Kempff, he's flashier and faster. Compared to Annie, he's a little less rigid/Teutonic. Maybe the best comparison I can make in my own personal scope of knowledge is that Scherbakov is the answer to the question, "what if Jeno Jando was an absolute badass motherf*cker?"

Most interesting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 17, 2020, 05:32:41 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 17, 2020, 02:19:06 PMwhat if Jeno Jando was an absolute badass motherf*cker?


He'd be called Yusuke Kikuchi?

Scherbakov is on volume six I believe.  I can wait patiently for the entire set, I know I can.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 17, 2020, 05:38:11 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 17, 2020, 05:32:41 PM
He'd be called Yusuke Kikuchi?

Ohhhh thanks for suggesting a really fun A/B comparison showdown.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on June 18, 2020, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 17, 2020, 03:01:06 PM
Most interesting.

Agreed. That was a great description and got my attention.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on June 18, 2020, 07:34:35 AM
Who knew i had so much in common with the Hurwitzer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-fow2ab3w
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 18, 2020, 07:37:39 AM
Hurwitz is wrong.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Daverz on June 18, 2020, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: George on June 18, 2020, 07:34:35 AM
Who knew i had so much in common with the Hurwitzer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-fow2ab3w

I'm not going to watch the whole video again (I'm listening to music, too), so based on what he holds up, his choices are

Rudolf Serkin
Kempff (stereo cycle, I think)
Arrau
Annie Fischer
Gulda 1967
Brautigam as a choice for a period instrument recording
Levit

https://www.youtube.com/v/p3-fow2ab3w

BTW, I did a spot check of the Amadeo/Brilliant Classics and Eloquence issues of the Gulda set, and I marginally prefer Amadeo as crisper sounding.  There seems to be a slight added reverb on the Eloquence (perhaps due to their AMSI process).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 18, 2020, 03:55:50 PM
Igor Levit's cycle did nothing at all for me, but otherwise, not a bad list.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on June 18, 2020, 11:18:45 PM
Rudolf Serkin's Beethoven sonatas amount to only about 2/3 of a cycle and they are rather uneven, so I would not put this in the top rank. As for Gulda, I don't think the possible slight differences in sound should not overrule price or accessibility. Also note that the Amadeo set are 9 single discs in separate cases with only Spartan documentation and only one track per sonata! The latter fact alone might lead many to prefer the more recent issues despite the sound.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 18, 2020, 11:52:05 PM
No matter how hard I try I just can't warm to the Gulda cycle. I'm happy to pass it on to someone who would enjoy it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 02:20:27 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 18, 2020, 11:52:05 PM
No matter how hard I try I just can't warm to the Gulda cycle. I'm happy to pass it on to someone who would enjoy it.

I take it you are talking about his third, the Amadeo cycle? (As opposed to the earlier cycles available on Orfeo and Philips/Decca?)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MusicTurner on June 19, 2020, 03:44:38 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 18, 2020, 11:52:05 PM
No matter how hard I try I just can't warm to the Gulda cycle. I'm happy to pass it on to someone who would enjoy it.

Agree concerning most of the later Gulda, say on Amadeo. Early Gulda can be interesting, however. Such as the Orfeo and the various Membran/Milestones etc. releases.
(( Btw, surprisingly, I found his early Chopin Concerto 1/Boult to be my favourite recording; his early Debussy is good too )).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2020, 05:09:32 AM
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 09:15:55 PM
He's fun to watch. More intrigued by his Beethoven symphonies list and Mahler Fifth.
I like the recent Telarc Mahler one where he deliberately didn't look at the contents beforehand to prepare.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 19, 2020, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 02:20:27 AM
I take it you are talking about his third, the Amadeo cycle? (As opposed to the earlier cycles available on Orfeo and Philips/Decca?)

Yes, it's the Amedeo from 1967. Is the Philips significantly different in approach?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Daverz on June 19, 2020, 05:29:37 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 18, 2020, 11:18:45 PM
Also note that the Amadeo set are 9 single discs in separate cases with only Spartan documentation and only one track per sonata! The latter fact alone might lead many to prefer the more recent issues despite the sound.

It also came out on Brilliant Classics and is also in their big Beethoven box, which is what I'm comparing.  And as I said, the differences are marginal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 20, 2020, 06:31:19 AM
Rather quietly, Maurizio Zaccaria has released six volumes of the sonatas, most this year.  Looks like he's on track to have them all released this year.  I'm game.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on June 20, 2020, 02:57:39 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 19, 2020, 03:44:38 AM
Agree concerning most of the later Gulda, say on Amadeo. Early Gulda can be interesting, however. Such as the Orfeo and the various Membran/Milestones etc. releases.
(( Btw, surprisingly, I found his early Chopin Concerto 1/Boult to be my favourite recording; his early Debussy is good too )).

Based on all of this I've done some listening, comparing all three of the Gulda cycles and they are quite different. I used a selection of sonatas for my comparison including Op2/2, Op13, Op27/1, Op31/2, Op 53 and Op 109.

It's in the early sonatas where the differences between the sets is minimal and it's enjoyable playing. However, as Gulda moves further through the oeuvre you hear a discernible difference in approach between the Amadeo set and it's younger siblings. The word that comes to mind when describing the Amadeo is impatient. You feel as if Gulda is thinking "OK, let's get this finished so we can move on." and it leaves me with a feeling of impatience as well. Many of the movements are played at a very fast clip and don't seem to have much thought put into them. They just move inexorably and inevitably forward leaving the listener with little breathing space.

Now I am not against speed in the LvB outer movements. Two of my all time favourite sonata recordings are Rudolf Serkin's 1952 Waldstein and Gilel's 1960 Moscow Appassionata which both have some very fast playing. I also like Tomsic in the Waldstein. They make the music work, they make it thrilling. Gulda just makes it fast.

Listening to the Philips and the Orfeo recordings I find Gulda much more in touch with what I consider to be Beethoven's intentions. Of the two, I easily prefer the Orfeo. It's a young man's Beethoven and hasn't been overthought. Gulda simply plays the sonatas as laid out and it works. The sound is better too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 02, 2020, 09:09:54 PM
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-07/1593731127_boris-giltburg-beethoven-32-vol_-1-piano-sonatas-nos_-1-3-2020.jpg)

Another cycle. Based on the three sonatas he's already recorded, I'm not especially enthusiastic, but as always, we'll see.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 03, 2020, 12:19:46 AM
Neither am I after hearing them. This is a somewhat idiosyncratic performance. While there are some very nice touches and some interesting ideas, it doesn't really do it for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 03, 2020, 03:27:14 AM
Quote from: Holden on June 20, 2020, 02:57:39 PM
The word that comes to mind when describing the Amadeo is impatient. You feel as if Gulda is thinking "OK, let's get this finished so we can move on." and it leaves me with a feeling of impatience as well. Many of the movements are played at a very fast clip and don't seem to have much thought put into them. They just move inexorably and inevitably forward leaving the listener with little breathing space.

Amen to this as far I'm concerned.





Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 03, 2020, 05:36:09 AM
Quote from: amw on July 02, 2020, 09:09:54 PM
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-07/1593731127_boris-giltburg-beethoven-32-vol_-1-piano-sonatas-nos_-1-3-2020.jpg)

Another cycle. Based on the three sonatas he's already recorded, I'm not especially enthusiastic, but as always, we'll see.


I'll take it.  Giltburg has a web diary of the sonatas and project: https://beethoven32.com/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 03, 2020, 06:25:03 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 03, 2020, 03:27:14 AM

Amen to this as far I'm concerned.

Another agreement, I probably wrote this somewhere else, I don't see the appeal of that cycle outside the Op. 2 and 10 sonatas (maybe 49 as well).

A rather big disappointment I heard recently in Op. 111 is Pi-Hsien Chen; flat and one dimensional. A surprising disappointment given how consistently good she is in most music I've heard her play; her Schoenberg disc in particular. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on July 03, 2020, 09:20:26 AM
Looks like the Giltburg volumes will be digital only at least for now. I just found the booklet and it confirms that these are audio files taken straight from the video series. Indeed, the video production is listed as the album's producer.

From the pianist:

"It is unique in combining elements from a live performance with those of a studio recording. The live element comes from every movement being a single, uncut take. The studio element comes from the ability to film many of those takes, to listen to each one immediately afterwards in studio-quality sound, and adjust your playing based on what you've just heard. Thus the filming itself becomes the last, accelerated, stage of preparation, as things crystallise, literally before your eyes and ears.

"The recordings presented in this album are those very films, stripped of their visual element, but hopefully preserving the spirit and atmosphere of the unusual circumstances under which they were produced."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 03, 2020, 02:49:22 PM
I listened to Giltburg's op.2/1 and then watched the animated version. Not bad, and I actually think a lot of people Unfamiliar with the music would find that animation helpful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 04, 2020, 03:10:01 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 03, 2020, 06:25:03 AM
A rather big disappointment I heard recently in Op. 111 is Pi-Hsien Chen; flat and one dimensional. A surprising disappointment given how consistently good she is in most music I've heard her play; her Schoenberg disc in particular. 
I like the Chen but I'm surprised by your description of it—would have expected the criticisms to be more along the lines of heavy and overdramatic, or perhaps over-romanticised. In fact (contra "one-dimensional") my favourite aspect of her recording is the attention paid to polyphonic lines. But if you didn't like it, you didn't like it, obviously.

I recently tried Giltburg in 111, followed by Kosuge, preferring the latter as more stylish and with a better sense of musical ebb and flow. Neither one would be in my top 10 111s personally though. On the list for future examination (109-111 inclusive): Elisabeth Leonskaja, Jörg Demus (modern instruments), Maria Perrotta and Éric Le Sage; to be revisited: Cédric Pescia, Yevgeny Sudbin, Mitsuko Uchida, Christoph Eschenbach, Einar Steen-Nøkleberg.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 05, 2020, 07:09:10 AM
Quote from: amw on July 04, 2020, 03:10:01 AM
I like the Chen but I'm surprised by your description of it—would have expected the criticisms to be more along the lines of heavy and overdramatic, or perhaps over-romanticised. In fact (contra "one-dimensional") my favourite aspect of her recording is the attention paid to polyphonic lines. But if you didn't like it, you didn't like it, obviously.

I recently tried Giltburg in 111, followed by Kosuge, preferring the latter as more stylish and with a better sense of musical ebb and flow. Neither one would be in my top 10 111s personally though. On the list for future examination (109-111 inclusive): Elisabeth Leonskaja, Jörg Demus (modern instruments), Maria Perrotta and Éric Le Sage; to be revisited: Cédric Pescia, Yevgeny Sudbin, Mitsuko Uchida, Christoph Eschenbach, Einar Steen-Nøkleberg.

I don't know about overly romantic but over dramatic especially in the first movement (really emphasizing some parts of the left hand, dramatic build up to crescendos) is one of the things that I think makes it a bit one dimensional. Which continues through the second movement, then playing some of the variations quite slow ("fake profundity"), fussy variation 3, and not particularly interesting variation 4 and 5 for me. For polyphonic clarity and attention I think Pogorelich is even better here (maybe cheating given how little pedal he uses), but it's not a version I want to hear often.

I think I was more taken back given how great she is with Schoenberg, Boulez and I think (don't know this music well) Cage as well.

I'll be interested in what you think of Yevgeny Sudbin, I bought that soon after it came out didn't think it was that special.

Edit: FWIW I do prefer a more romantic account but it needs to be balanced and have that enigmatic "reaching quality". Some of my references are Lucchesini, Ernst Levy, Pollini 1970s and maybe Annie Fischer EMI studio.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: vers la flamme on July 05, 2020, 08:13:52 AM
Count me in disagreement with Chen's op.111 as one-dimensional. I thought it was an excellent performance, though I didn't like her op.101 on the same disc quite as much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 17, 2020, 05:52:04 PM
Garrick Ohlsson's complete Beethoven Piano Sonata cycle is available for $4.99 at Qobuz: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/garrick-ohlsson-the-complete-beethoven-sonatas-garrick-ohlsson/0888831958680

Malcolm Bilson, et al is also $4.99: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/beethoven-the-complete-32-piano-sonatas-on-period-instruments-in-addition-the-three-bonn-kurfursten-sonatas-deluxe-edition-malcolm-bilson/0191018073770

Melodie Zhao's is $8.99: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-melodie-zhao/0191773012816

Steven Masi's is $8.99: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/beethoven-complete-sonatas-for-piano-steven-masi/0191773013455




Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: vers la flamme on July 18, 2020, 04:36:53 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2020, 05:52:04 PM
Garrick Ohlsson's complete Beethoven Piano Sonata cycle is available for $4.99 at Qobuz: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/garrick-ohlsson-the-complete-beethoven-sonatas-garrick-ohlsson/0888831958680

Malcolm Bilson, et al is also $4.99: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/beethoven-the-complete-32-piano-sonatas-on-period-instruments-in-addition-the-three-bonn-kurfursten-sonatas-deluxe-edition-malcolm-bilson/0191018073770

Melodie Zhao's is $8.99: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-melodie-zhao/0191773012816

Steven Masi's is $8.99: https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/beethoven-complete-sonatas-for-piano-steven-masi/0191773013455

I wanted to ask about the Bilson (+6) set. I see folks listening to it sometimes. How is it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 18, 2020, 05:37:10 AM
Quote from: jlopes on July 18, 2020, 04:14:48 AM
Hey Todd, any opinions about the Jonathan Biss recent box set? Or you dislike his playing? https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8766187--beethoven-the-complete-piano-sonatas

(https://www.amazon.com/images/I/61P5dZicr3L._SL1200_.jpg)


Biss falls into my third tier, which of course means nothing objectively.  His set is variable.  He's certainly never bad, not even close, but I tend to prefer him in earlier and middle sonatas than late sonatas.  He's direct, unflashy, and unidiosyncratic.  It's a solid set, and for people not prone to buying too many sets, I'd say he offers a fine contemporary cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on July 19, 2020, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 18, 2020, 04:36:53 AM
I wanted to ask about the Bilson (+6) set. I see folks listening to it sometimes. How is it?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81v2LGf3jWL._SS500_.jpg)

As can be expected with 7 performers: a mixed bag. Some wonderful performances, several nice, a few dissapointing.
The aim of the set is to showcase Beethoven sonata performances on 9 period instruments  by/after 6 different makers: Anton Walter,  Johann Schantz, Salvatore Lagrasse, Gottlieb Hafner, Johann Fritz and Conrad Graf.
If you're interested in that kind of thing, this is a very nice set.  :)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jan02/Beethoven_sonatas_claves.htm

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/14/arts/classical-music-fortepiano-gets-a-test-beethoven.html

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Old San Antone on July 19, 2020, 09:29:46 AM
Regarding complete cycles on fortepiano, this one is worth hearing ...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71mJNgztDeL._SS500_.jpg)

RE: Jonathan Biss - his set was attractive to me from the beginning. It is nice to have the set completed, and collected in a single box.  His essays (written and on video) were also very good, I hope the booklet is complete in that regard.  This description, "He's direct, unflashy, and unidiosyncratic" is what I liked, that kind of interpretation is what I look for.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 19, 2020, 10:00:51 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on July 19, 2020, 09:29:46 AM
Regarding complete cycles on fortepiano, this one is worth hearing ...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71mJNgztDeL._SS500_.jpg)


The reigning period instrument champ until:

1.) Andrea Lucchesini records a period instrument cycle, or

2.) Penelope Crawford completes a period instrument cycle, or

3.) Andras Schiff records a period instrument cycle, or

4.) Some heretofore unidentified keyboardist records a cycle superior to the notional cycles listed above
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on July 23, 2020, 02:08:03 AM
I'm holding out hope for Olga Pashchenko (admittedly, not much hope).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2020, 02:13:54 AM
I listened to the first movement of Rosel's op 106 and amazingly, enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on September 11, 2020, 06:24:33 AM
Apparently this is just coming out today...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715veqlMu5L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 21, 2020, 09:51:42 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616LPn5ooJL._SY425_.jpg)


So far this year, none of the LvB sonata cycles released* have come close to cracking the top tier.  I don't really expect one to, unless maybe FFG delivers a surprise second cycle or Krystian Zimerman an even bigger surprise first cycle, but one always hopes for knockout Beethoven.  Here's one such disc.  Schuch can do whatever he wants with a piano, and what he wants to do is intervene.  A lot.  There's no garish rubato or accenting, but in all three Beethoven Sonatas on offer, he can't go a full bar without adding a personal touch.  His combination of accenting and rubato is unique and pronounced, and not everyone will like it.  His use of the sostenuto pedal is more pronounced than normal, too.  And his virtuosity turned to anti-virtuosity is a marvel.  He could play the music fast if he wanted, but instead his supreme control of tempo, and his choice to purposely slow some things down, and to play with ultra-fine dynamic gradations, compels.  The coda of 31/2 offers a case in point, but it's evident from the Op 13 Grave that opens the disc.  Indeed, Op 13 encapsulates everything Schuch does in the first movement.  It's a feast for the ears, with so many things going on, that it will take at least a half dozen listens to digest them all.  On first listen, the end result seems to be that Schuch delivers three strongly individual readings, played at the highest level, capped off by one of the greatest recordings of 31/1.  Each movement is a universe unto itself, with the outer movements more animated and possessed of limitless dynamic shadings.  But the Adagio grazioso emerges as playing of genius.  Playing up the parody nature, Schuch throws everything he has at, with insanely good trills, varying in volume and note length just because; accelerandos to make you think why not; exaggerated pauses and sforzandi because it only makes sense.  It almost overwhelms.  He doesn't veer off into Kuerti or Sherman territory, and he plays better than either of them, and it just stomps all over expectations.

Three small, modern works are also included, starting with Mike Garson's Pathetique Variations, which is a very fine pastiche informed by jazz and other less than purely conservatory approved ideas.  Henri Pousseur's Coups de Des en Echos and Leander Ruprect's Sonata in D Minor are gnarlier modern works, and both work nicely enough, though they are not up to the Garson, at least to my taste.

Once again, Mr Schuch delivers a purchase of the year.


* Minsoo Sohn, Konstantin Scherbakov, and Barenboim IV still need to be listened to, of course.  Maybe one of those will set the modern standard.  (I mean, probably not.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on September 21, 2020, 10:44:24 AM
Agree about the live Pollini.  The ones from the 1976/77 cycle are the only ones for me.

(https://img.discogs.com/DBZ7yfX28b8L8bkHvNw6EWt71lE=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5128675-1485701300-7287.jpeg.jpg)

(https://img.discogs.com/vIJYqCpxOzpJ4qCWrw8jERG5T_0=/fit-in/600x588/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1794322-1397505263-9740.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on September 25, 2020, 04:32:42 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81xZKOtPo4L._SL1500_.jpg)

On the basis of this recording, containing Op. 7, 10/3, 13 & 27/2, Hisako Kawamura joins the elite tier of Beethoven interpreters; she may be the greatest living one on modern piano (but I would wait for the last two volumes before making that judgment). There are two potential downsides to her playing that I'll get out of the way quickly: she does not shy away from producing a harsh and violent tone, and her rhythmic sense can be somewhat metronomic. The appeal of her playing lies mostly in her mastery of touch, in all its gradations from the softest and gentlest possible piano to the loudest and most metallic forte. She does not produce very interesting colours (though that's also partly due to her instrument of choice) but her utter control of every note and sound is paralleled only by, among living artists, Yeol Eum Son, Daniil Trifonov and Arcadi Volodos. The difference between her and those artists is that she does not limit herself to making everything sound beautiful. Her control extends to a willingness to break the "rules" of piano touch to suit the character of the music, which makes her instead a successor to Lili Kraus and Annie Fischer.

That attention to character also sets her apart from the bulk of present-day interpreters: her Beethoven can be witty, playful, violent, solemn, amiable, mysterious or straightforward, all within the same movement as necessary. It is always fundamentally alive, and she does not attempt to impose a consistent aesthetic from work to work. (So her playing is not "consistently" fast, slow or medium, youthful or mature, classical or romantic, etc.) In these early sonatas she often eschews use of the pedal, but this if anything seems to give her even more freedom; her fps have to be heard to be believed. I'm obviously very interested to hear what she does with the pedal in the later sonatas which do call for it.

This volume is now available on streaming services & internationally. A second volume, containing Op. 31/3, 53, 57 and 78, has been released but is only available in Japan; it is unclear how long the delay will be before it hits the international market. Two additional volumes are expected (most likely in 2021) to contain Op. 81a, 90, 106, 109, 110 & 111. (There do not seem to be any plans to record any of the other sonatas.)

Stylistic points of comparison: in addition to the pianists I mentioned, also Maria Tipo, Yusuke Kikuchi, Vladimir Horowitz

You might not enjoy this if your favoured interpreters are: Emil Gilels, Wilhelm Kempff, Wilhelm Backhaus, Hans Richter-Haaser, Sviatoslav Richter
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2020, 05:16:55 PM
Quote from: amw on September 25, 2020, 04:32:42 PMThere do not seem to be any plans to record any of the other sonatas.


No bueno.

Now I want to try this recording.  Probably her Rach 2, too, while I'm at it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on September 25, 2020, 07:14:41 PM
Her Chopin is also elite tier in my view (and her Schubert and Schumann are at least very good). I haven't heard the Rachmaninov.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 25, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: amw on September 25, 2020, 07:14:41 PM
Her Chopin is also elite tier in my view (and her Schubert and Schumann are at least very good).

People on amazon think highly of her Chopin:

https://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Piano-Hisako-Kawamura-2009-03-24/dp/B01K8MFOPU

and

https://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Ballades-Kawamura-Hisako-2013-10-29/dp/B01ABB1XI0/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=Chopin+Hisako+Kawamura&qid=1601091013&s=music&sr=1-4
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 26, 2020, 03:15:07 AM
Quote from: amw on September 25, 2020, 04:32:42 PM
You might not enjoy this if your favoured interpreters are: Emil Gilels, Wilhelm Kempff, Wilhelm Backhaus, Hans Richter-Haaser, Sviatoslav Richter

Thanks, I do enjoy these, and with - until now 70+ complete sets - I have reached some kind of saturation point and will surely pass this new set by.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2020, 04:41:56 AM
Quote from: amw on September 25, 2020, 04:32:42 PM

10/3,

oooooo!  That's one I can listen to, so on goes the largo e mesto.

Is this a premonition of late Beethoven wisdom à la Schnabel? Not in her hands it ain't. Emo teenager wisdom maybe. I like it!  No I don't. Yes I do a bit.  Well maybe it's OK once or twice. Glad to know it exists.

Quote from: amw on September 25, 2020, 04:32:42 PM


You might not enjoy this if your favoured interpreters are: Emil Gilels, Wilhelm Kempff, Wilhelm Backhaus, Hans Richter-Haaser, Sviatoslav Richter

You might enjoy this if your favoured interpreters are: Glenn Gould and Friedrich Gulda.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 26, 2020, 05:34:47 AM
Quote from: amw on September 25, 2020, 07:14:41 PM
Her Chopin is also elite tier in my view (and her Schubert and Schumann are at least very good). I haven't heard the Rachmaninov.


I have her Chopin/Schumann disc and Chopin Preludes.  She is very good, though I prefer others in every work I have heard.  Since her first LvB volume can be downloaded for a reasonable price, I will probably give it a shot.  Always good to hear a different take - especially if Op 7 is included.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 26, 2020, 06:10:14 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 26, 2020, 03:15:07 AM
Thanks, I do enjoy these, and with - until now 70+ complete sets - I have reached some kind of saturation point and will surely pass this new set by.

I hear ya, man. I have far less than 70 sets and have reached a point where I won't likely be buying more.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on September 26, 2020, 11:24:03 AM
I listened to her play the Pathetique Sonata, certainly had me tapping my foot (maybe the metronomic precision amw mentioned) and she played with propulsive brio, really reminded me of Friedrich Gulda. I thought her phrasing of some of the loud sections and how she abruptly cut them off was a bit odd. Overall not for me.

The first Chopin Ballade in G minor was very good, elastic tempo, that same propulsiveness from the Beethoven and some power in controlling those rolling dynamic changes. I plan to return to the rest.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on September 26, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
Friedrich Gulda is another name I should have mentioned yes, although she is more like the 1967 Gulda than the 1953 (Orfeo) Gulda (which is my preferred Gulda set). I think Gulda did not have the same degree of control of touch though.

Glad some people have listened & posted their thoughts though! (I try to make sure my views are always indicated as subjective. For me I knew Kawamura was the Beethoven interpreter I'd been looking for within ~20 seconds but it did take listening to the entire album to formulate my reasons why.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 08, 2020, 05:24:54 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Js+oG+8HL._SS425_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81XfJeFH37L._SS425_.jpg)


Volume two now out.  The collection of movements only serves to annoy; release the whole set, dammit.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on October 08, 2020, 05:56:23 PM
 ^ I don't find her convincing on Beethoven.  She's much better with other composer's material, such as Liszt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 08, 2020, 05:59:43 PM
What does "convincing" mean?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 16, 2020, 02:50:23 PM
The Scherbakov box arrived, $30 from ImportCDs. "Box" is a generous description. It's a paper slipcover holding nine paper sleeves and the booklet interview. The interview is quite good - Scherbakov amusingly describes a moment a few years ago rehearsing Godowsky for Naxos and suddenly realizing that he was sick of all the noodling with obscure miniatures and wanted to play Beethoven instead, "as a present to myself" - but overall, bare minimum production. Fine by me, I guess, it's the music that counts. But if you were debating box vs. download, this info may be useful.

Looks like he recorded the first nine sonatas in a single epic weekend in October 2019, and did the final three discs during covid lockdown.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on October 16, 2020, 04:30:57 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2020, 02:50:23 PM
The Scherbakov box arrived, $30 from ImportCDs. "Box" is a generous description. It's a paper slipcover holding nine paper sleeves and the booklet interview. The interview is quite good - Scherbakov amusingly describes a moment a few years ago rehearsing Godowsky for Naxos and suddenly realizing that he was sick of all the noodling with obscure miniatures and wanted to play Beethoven instead, "as a present to myself" - but overall, bare minimum production. Fine by me, I guess, it's the music that counts. But if you were debating box vs. download, this info may be useful.

Looks like he recorded the first nine sonatas in a single epic weekend in October 2019, and did the final three discs during covid lockdown.

Stewart Goodyear's set is packaged almost exactly the same way.

My copy is on its way to me from Arkivmusic.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 16, 2020, 05:34:43 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 16, 2020, 04:30:57 PM
Stewart Goodyear's set is packaged almost exactly the same way.


Did it change?  My copy is in a cheap clamshell box.  The Scherbakov package is flimsy, but since I rip and box physical media it doesn't matter.  Eco-friendly downloads are the best solution that also eliminate pesky delivery times - provided downloads cost less.

I'm thinking a Scherbakov-Sohn shootout offers a good way to hear what two sort of new pianists to me can do.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on October 16, 2020, 06:06:29 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 16, 2020, 05:34:43 PM

Did it change?  My copy is in a cheap clamshell box.  The Scherbakov package is flimsy, but since I rip and box physical media it doesn't matter.  Eco-friendly downloads are the best solution that also eliminate pesky delivery times - provided downloads cost less.

I'm thinking a Scherbakov-Sohn shootout offers a good way to hear what two sort of new pianists to me can do.

They must have decided cheap clamshell boxes were too expensive.  But it's still not as cheap and flimsy as the EMI France Beethoven Masterworks box (the one with Heisdeck), which was 50 CDs in 50 paper sleeves in a thin paper cube open at the top.

ETA: Scherbakov isn't exactly new. His DSCH Preludes and Fugues were among my first purchases when I got serious about buying music 25 years ago or so. I'm surprised you haven't gotten to him before this year.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 16, 2020, 06:07:12 PM
(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/0000112/8/5/026.jpg)


I knew there'd be at least one more (pretty much a) surprise cycle, and here one is: Irina Mejoueva's second cycle. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on October 19, 2020, 05:11:39 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 16, 2020, 06:06:29 PM
They must have decided cheap clamshell boxes were too expensive.  But it's still not as cheap and flimsy as the EMI France Beethoven Masterworks box (the one with Heisdeck), which was 50 CDs in 50 paper sleeves in a thin paper cube open at the top.

ETA: Scherbakov isn't exactly new. His DSCH Preludes and Fugues were among my first purchases when I got serious about buying music 25 years ago or so. I'm surprised you haven't gotten to him before this year.

My copy of Scherbakov landed today. The  packaging for the set is somewhat better than that of Goodyear's cycle: cardboard sleeves instead of paper envelopes, and the sleeves have track listings and recording details on the back.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2020, 05:42:05 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 19, 2020, 05:11:39 PM
My copy of Scherbakov landed today. The  packaging for the set is somewhat better than that of Goodyear's cycle: cardboard sleeves instead of paper envelopes, and the sleeves have track listings and recording details on the back.

Nice.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2020, 01:11:44 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81asyyMJeCL._SX425_.jpg)

My copy arrived today.  The first batch of liner notes are by Anne-Sophie Mutter.  The second batch are by Julia Spinola, who writes that this is the fifth complete recorded cycle from Barenboim.  That is news to me.  Jed Distler states in his review that Barenboim does use his straight-string custom piano.  I guess I should start listening.

Anyone who does not have Barenboim's Westminster recordings gets them as a bonus in this set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on December 12, 2020, 11:41:52 PM
I stumbled onto this...I don't recall seeing it anywhere here. Perhaps it is old news, or, more likely, a re-issue.
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-12/1607459397_cover.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2020, 04:45:54 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on December 12, 2020, 11:41:52 PM
I stumbled onto this...I don't recall seeing it anywhere here. Perhaps it is old news, or, more likely, a re-issue.
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-12/1607459397_cover.jpg)


A mediocre set from the 90s.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2020, 05:40:21 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 05, 2020, 01:11:44 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81asyyMJeCL._SX425_.jpg)
The second batch are by Julia Spinola, who writes that this is the fifth complete recorded cycle from Barenboim.  That is news to me. 

Anyone who does not have Barenboim's Westminster recordings gets them as a bonus in this set.

You probably assume, as do I, that she got confused by the two DVD/CD cycles, which have been released on different labels in the different media forms...


Quote from: Todd on October 16, 2020, 06:07:12 PM
(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/0000112/8/5/026.jpg)


I knew there'd be at least one more (pretty much a) surprise cycle, and here one is: Irina Mejoueva's second cycle.

??? Wow!

Have you any more information on that, by chance?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2020, 05:42:13 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2020, 05:40:21 AM
You probably assume, as do I, that she got confused by the two DVD/CD cycles, which have been released on different labels in the different media forms...


I did, but she mentions a cycle from the 90s, which I had not seen mentioned before.  If there is another cycle, I'll take it.  Plus I would have thought DG and/or Barenboim would have corrected her.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2020, 05:47:59 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2020, 05:40:21 AMHave you any more information on that, by chance?

Just that it was recorded in the summer and is available only in Japan, like all of her post-Denon recordings.  I originally thought that the recordings she made in 2019 would be included, but this is a fresh batch for all thirty-two.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2020, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2020, 05:42:13 AM

I did, but she mentions a cycle from the 90s, which I had not seen mentioned before.  If there is another cycle, I'll take it.  Plus I would have thought DG and/or Barenboim would have corrected her.

I don't think that anyone at DG knows. Certainly no proofreader. And maybe Barenboim doesn't remember, at this point, either.

However, I am fairly positive that there is no 90s cycle. However, this suggests that maybe she's thinking of the EuroArts cycles (identical to DG I), not the EMI-DVD cycle (identical to Decca)... because I think that EuroArts cycle was distributed in the late 90s. But I'm a little hazy on that. Anyway, I still think that's much more likely than him having snuck another cycle by the both of us.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2020, 11:26:55 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2020, 11:23:14 AMAnyway, I still think that's much more likely than him having snuck another cycle by the both of us.


It seems unlikely, but I'm hoping it's real and not just one of those mythical unreleased cycles, like Cortot's or one of several Pollini was supposed to have recorded but never approved for release.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 13, 2020, 01:02:56 PM
I may or may not have solved this. The EuroArts recordings are DVDs and were made in 1983/1984. The DGG are CD recordings and also made in 1983/84. Is it possible that:

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2020, 05:37:32 PM
Eventually, I will get to the bottom of the Barenboim mystery. 

Meanwhile, I do hope that Kun-Woo Paik's recital series gets issued: Pianist Kun-Woo Paik to play rearranged Beethoven sonata cycle (https://focustaiwan.tw/culture/202012040018)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on December 14, 2020, 05:17:02 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2020, 05:37:32 PM


Meanwhile, I do hope that Kun-Woo Paik's recital series gets issued: Pianist Kun-Woo Paik to play rearranged Beethoven sonata cycle (https://focustaiwan.tw/culture/202012040018)

  I hadn't heard about this...I may go and see Friday's show.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 16, 2020, 05:08:25 AM
The most objective ratings system known to humanity - refreshed!


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-20 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi


Second Tier - Remainder (in alphabetical order)
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Younwha Lee

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira
Igor Levit
Irina Mejoueva
John O'Conor
Jonathan Biss
Konstantin Scherbakov
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Binns
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Daniel Barenboim (DG, 2020)
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Konstantin Lifschitz
Llŷr Williams
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch
Martino Tirimo   
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Robert Benz
Robert Taub
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland


Eighth Circle of Hell
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 16, 2020, 05:40:42 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 13, 2020, 01:02:56 PM
I may or may not have solved this. The EuroArts recordings are DVDs and were made in 1983/1984. The DGG are CD recordings and also made in 1983/84. Is it possible that:


    The DVDs were recorded separately technically creating a 5th cycle. This is them.

    https://www.medici.tv/en/collections/the-complete-beethoven-sonatas-by-daniel-barenboim-1983-1984/


      The tracks from the DVDs were transferred from the EuroArts, leading the reviewer to think that they are different and hence a 5th cycle.

      To throw a spanner in the works, a separate reviewer also calls this a 5th cycle.

      https://www.ft.com/content/5d17e7dc-6c4d-495a-801d-f84c604f3e1b


      A comparison by someone who owns the DG cycle with the Medici videos posted above might clear this up. Track timing might give this away. Also, the CD booklet could also help as Medici lists the venues as "Austrian Palaces".  You'll need a Medici subscription to hear the complete recordings.

Perhaps the reviewer that discusses the recordings will be of help (Joseph) from here:
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Blu-ray-EuroArts/dp/B00UGQIOA6
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brass Hole on December 16, 2020, 05:51:18 AM
Sad...just sad.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 16, 2020, 06:33:17 AM
Holy cow, you really lined up alllll these threads to finish out and post tiers in every single one on Beethoven's probable birthday? Talk about a master plan.

Interesting to note that the Beethoven Year yielded up two new cycles in the upper tiers: Minsoo Sohn and Fazil Say. Plus that Tetzlaff/Ticciati concerto was either this year or last year, and the Honeck 3 was pretty recent...not a bad haul. Except when I remember we could have had Freire/Chailly completed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 16, 2020, 06:39:53 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2020, 06:33:17 AM
Holy cow, you really lined up alllll these threads to finish out and post tiers in every single one on Beethoven's probable birthday? Talk about a master plan.


The only composer I can imagine taking the time to both listen to and write about so much.

On the Eroica, don't forget the 2020 corkers from Ades and Savall.  When the Ades is complete, unless he flubs the last three symphonies, it will be the go-to small ensemble set.

For the piano sonatas, I hope that many pianists endeavor to complete new cycles for 2027.  I need me some more cycles.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 16, 2020, 07:26:17 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 16, 2020, 05:08:25 AM
The most objective ratings system known to humanity - refreshed!


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-20 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi

Did you do a full writeup of Fazil Say's set? I just ran a few searches and can't find it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 16, 2020, 07:28:57 AM
Quote from: George on December 16, 2020, 07:26:17 AM
Did you do a full writeup of Fazil Say's set? I just ran a few searches and can't find it.

No.  I didn't do any this year until Sohn, Scherbakov, and Barenboim.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 16, 2020, 07:38:14 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 16, 2020, 07:28:57 AM
No.  I didn't do any this year until Sohn, Scherbakov, and Barenboim.

OK
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2020, 08:35:28 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 16, 2020, 05:08:25 AM
The most objective ratings system known to humanity - refreshed!


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-20 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi.......................................

Thanks Todd for your 'refreshed' list of Beethoven's Sonata Cycles in the 250th year of his birth - about six months ago I acquired the recently released Paul Badura-Skoda box shown below released by Arcana (originally on Astree-Audivis), i.e. the 1978-1989 recordings on seven different original fortepianos (second pic from the 68-page booklet) - for those interested in performances of these works on period instruments (originals and/or reproductions - I usually prefer the latter) and have yet to purchase, some interesting contrasting reviews of Paul B-S's recordings - the first is a raving review of the box shown from MusicWeb (I would suspect that the sound was improved) vs. a handful of Fanfare reviews from the past when the CDs were first released; the latter include a number of rather negative comments - I've only listened to this box once when bought, so before 2020 ends, will take another run through.  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91BDADuWq2L._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-q5BJTkm/0/02a77d94/XL/Beethoven_PBS_FPs-XL.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MickeyBoy on December 16, 2020, 08:48:00 AM

Any comments on the Pristine Classical remasterings of Kempff mono?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 16, 2020, 11:35:36 AM
I've tried Lucchesini and Pienaar because people around here keep raving.

They both did absolutely nothing for me. Lucchesini I can't remember the details, it was a while ago. Pienaar... just fiddles with everything.

And then I found a bunch of reviews of Pienaar that perfectly aligned with my own reaction. Including a review that said it was likely to be a love it or hate it set and then declared the reviewer generally fell into the latter category.

So there's nothing 'objective' about this list.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 12:26:42 PM
Which ones have you heard that you liked?

(I got Lucchesini years ago long before I knew of this forum because people liked it elsewhere on the internet. But I don't remember if I found it special, I should probably relisten. I tend to stick with old favs, namely Gulda for the whole (despite being sometimes too fast and straight), + assorted Gilels, Richter, Pollini, Serkin, Schnabel). Some of my favorites never did complete cycles, namely Gelber and Kocsis.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 16, 2020, 12:28:25 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 16, 2020, 11:35:36 AM
So there's nothing 'objective' about this list.
Pretty sure "The most objective ratings system known to humanity" is comic hyperbole.

(I personally love Lucchesini but agree with you on DBP and additionally don't like the recorded sound on that set, which iirc DBP engineered himself. But this gets at something which the Ultimate Objective list doesn't really capture, which is eccentricity/idiosyncrasy. Perhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 16, 2020, 12:34:27 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2020, 12:28:25 PM
Pretty sure "The most objective ratings system known to humanity" is comic hyperbole.

(I personally love Lucchesini but agree with you on DBP and additionally don't like the recorded sound on that set, which iirc DBP engineered himself. But this gets at something which the Ultimate Objective list doesn't really capture, which is eccentricity/idiosyncrasy. Perhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.)

With the poster in question I wouldn't know what was hyperbole and what was his general tendency to act as if he's the smartest person in the room.

As for eccentricity, I have a working theory that after you listen to 150 performances of the same music you start developing a focus on who's doing it differently rather than asking whether the performer is doing what the composer requested and conveying the composer's intentions.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 16, 2020, 12:39:59 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 12:26:42 PM
Which ones have you heard that you liked?

(I got Lucchesini years ago long before I knew of this forum because people liked it elsewhere on the internet. But I don't remember if I found it special, I should probably relisten. I tend to stick with old favs, namely Gulda for the whole (despite being sometimes too fast and straight), + assorted Gilels, Richter, Pollini, Serkin, Schnabel). Some of my favorites never did complete cycles, namely Gelber and Kocsis.

The 2 full cycles I own are Kovacevich and Goode. I generally like both of them a lot (Goode I only purchased last year), though they do both have occasional missteps in my view as well. Kovacevich has amazing intensity, which works very well for some Beethoven. Goode impressed me for his vocal qualities, bringing out the different 'voices' in the music very clearly and making it sound like an opera scene - generally better in the early to middle works.

Beyond that I have, or have heard, some other bits and pieces but not sure I want to make general comments about the pianists off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 16, 2020, 12:55:09 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2020, 12:28:25 PMPretty sure "The most objective ratings system known to humanity" is comic hyperbole.

I would have thought that obvious.  Maybe one has to be American to get it.


Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2020, 12:28:25 PMPerhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.

An interesting idea.  I'd have to make sure to scale it properly to accommodate Gould.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 12:57:56 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 16, 2020, 12:34:27 PM
As for eccentricity, I have a working theory that after you listen to 150 performances of the same music you start developing a focus on who's doing it differently rather than asking whether the performer is doing what the composer requested and conveying the composer's intentions.
I had a similar suspicion years ago with a few posters in rec.classical.recordings. And I am pretty sure there are such listeners. I enjoy some fairly odd performances myself (but I am not quite sure if it is correlated with how well I know the music).

But Todd's Beethoven favorites are rarely excentric at all (neither here nor in the more recent smaller chamber music etc. surveys). He dislikes Gould and of his top favorites all, except maybe Annie Fischer that appeared late/posthumeously and was not so well distributed, are standard recommendations since the days of LP. And Fischer is not wilful or different for the sake of being different either.
I don't know Pienaar and Sherman but of the first "tiers" only Heidsieck strikes me as somewhat mannered occasionally.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 16, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 12:57:56 PM
I had a similar suspicion years ago with a few posters in rec.classical.recordings. And I am pretty sure there are such listeners. I enjoy some fairly odd performances myself (but I am not quite sure if it is correlated with how well I know the music).

But Todd's Beethoven favorites are rarely excentric at all (neither here nor in the more recent smaller chamber music etc. surveys). He dislikes Gould and of his top favorites all, except maybe Annie Fischer that appeared late/posthumeously and was not so well distributed, are standard recommendations since the days of LP. And Fischer is not wilful or different for the sake of being different either.
I don't know Pienaar and Sherman but of the first "tiers" only Heidsieck strikes me as somewhat mannered occasionally.

Duly noted. Nevertheless Emperor Todd ought to be deposed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2020, 03:36:21 PM
The two complete cycles I have are Kempff stereo and Pollini.  I enjoy them both thoroughly. I had the Kempff mono, and had no quarrel with it at all, but I gave it to a friend who had none. I do not believe that I need a third cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 16, 2020, 06:11:48 PM
I am also not a fan of eccentricity and would agree that Ben Pienaar definitely falls into that category. There are enough different ways to play the LvB sonatas without having to resort to excessively playing around with the phrasing.

When I listen to the cycles I've got (complete and near as) they are all different. Annie Fischer sounds nothing like Kempff. Gilels is totally different to Richter despite them both having the same teacher. The refreshing approach when I heard Hungerford the first time took my breath away yet his is nothing like the set that I imprinted on - Barenboim EMI. Finally, we have the man who started it all - Schnabel. His approach of swift first movements is reminiscent of Gulda but his slow movements, unlike Gulda's, are often sublime. Guld just tries to get the out of the way as quickly as possible.

One last word about eccentricity - Glenn Gould. In the LvB sonatas he played around with tempos, he played around with dynamics but he invariably got the phrasing correct. The first movement of the Appassionata is a case in point where he plays it ridiculously slowly. Despite this, it works for me as the phrasing and dynamics are spot on. If this recording had been my first exposure to Op 57 it would have been totally acceptable to me. I can't say the same for any of the DBP sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 11:21:14 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 16, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
Duly noted. Nevertheless Emperor Todd ought to be deposed.
I am not taking his reviews seriously, except to some extent for Beethoven piano sonatas where he has some experience. But one should blame or ignore people for the proper reasons. ;)
And I do find the tendency towards extreme or eccentricity because of overfamiliarity you noted quite interesting (and occasionally noted it myself) but it does not seem all that strong with Todd's reviews.
If I had to name a person from the forum who seems to be somewhat taken to eccentric keyboard interpretations, it would be Mandryka/Wolkenstein (no offense).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 17, 2020, 12:06:11 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 16, 2020, 06:11:48 PM
I am also not a fan of eccentricity and would agree that Ben Pienaar definitely falls into that category. There are enough different ways to play the LvB sonatas without having to resort to excessively playing around with the phrasing.
I actually don't find DBP to be strangely or unusually phrased—rather he seems to play most of the time with the phrasing of someone who's not quite technically capable of playing the Beethoven sonatas but is still making an effort. So a lot of the breathing pauses are positioned in exactly the places you have to reposition your hands quickly. I imagine it's the kind of recording that is grating to pianophiles, but it at least makes sense and is not arbitrary.

(I also don't think this reflects on his technical abilities, which are considerable; it's just that every time I hear him play a Beethoven sonata the places he hesitates or slows down tend to be the parts at which a less experienced piano student would do the same. I'm not sure if he just started out playing them with the hesitations like that as a student and liked the effect enough to continue with it as a professional, or if it's just a coincidence.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 17, 2020, 12:42:09 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 11:21:14 PM
I am not taking his reviews seriously, except to some extent for Beethoven piano sonatas where he has some experience. But one should blame or ignore people for the proper reasons. ;)
And I do find the tendency towards extreme or eccentricity because of overfamiliarity you noted quite interesting (and occasionally noted it myself) but it does not seem all that strong with Todd's reviews.
If I had to name a person from the forum who seems to be somewhat taken to eccentric keyboard interpretations, it would be Mandryka/Wolkenstein (no offense).

I think there are two places you can come from.

You could start with the score and traditional established ways of making sense of it, and then when you hear a recording you try to assess how well it fits into that. On this model it's probably inevitable  to end up with central and eccentric performances, though there may be more than one centre (think the "piano schools" way of thinking)

Or you could start with a performance on record or in concert and a explore the effects of the the performer's decision to play it like that. On this model, the idea of central/eccentric is less important. What matters is to understand more deeply the things which, otherwise, are only labelled "eccentric"  - labelled eccentric and dismissed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 17, 2020, 01:30:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 11:21:14 PM
I am not taking his reviews seriously, except to some extent for Beethoven piano sonatas where he has some experience. But one should blame or ignore people for the proper reasons. ;)

The reasons why he is on my ignore list have been publicly stated. On parts of this forum he is quite deliberately a troll.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 17, 2020, 04:23:34 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 11:21:14 PMI am not taking his reviews seriously

Who the hell would do that?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on December 17, 2020, 05:19:26 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2020, 11:21:14 PM
I am not taking his reviews seriously, except to some extent for Beethoven piano sonatas where he has some experience.

As to his Beethoven sonata reviews I agree with him generally, even if I disagree about some details. And I think the reviews always are interesting reading.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on December 17, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2020, 12:28:25 PM
Pretty sure "The most objective ratings system known to humanity" is comic hyperbole.

(I personally love Lucchesini but agree with you on DBP and additionally don't like the recorded sound on that set, which iirc DBP engineered himself. But this gets at something which the Ultimate Objective list doesn't really capture, which is eccentricity/idiosyncrasy. Perhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.)

Pretty much agree with you here as well on Andrea Lucchesini and DBP, I too didn't care for DBP in Beethoven. Maybe amw is right that he was not technically up to the task, in the recent Schubert box he sounds a bit jittery in places like the Allegretto from D537, but then again I hear this same insecurity from many Kempff recordings and that doesn't keep me from listening to Kempff's 78 rpm partial cycle or the DG mono.

Now my random dump of thoughts to round out the Beethoven 2020, though for me 2020 was more like the resurgence of my love of Haydn :). I listened to about a quarter to a third of three cycles from this year and wasn't impressed by any of them, so with enough exploring out of the way I went back to Annie Fischer's Hungaroton cycle which I haven't heard in a few years, mostly listening to other cycles that I'd acquired in the last 3 or 4 years instead.

And oh my was it rewarding. One thing that jumped out me was her very intelligent use of the mute pedal to great effect (probably some of the best I've heard as far as cycles go), that rounded/muted for lack of better word then the jumping off the page sound in the perfect moments. And also my realization that she plays many of the early sonatas as if they were late sonatas like for instance the Op. 2/3 Adagio. The other thing I noticed was just how amazing the Bosendorfer is. I've always like the sound of her tone on that cycle (thankfully recorded/mastered much better than EMI recordings on CD) but being able to hear a full size concert grand Bosendorfer from good seats within the first section really affirmed just how good these are. They project extremely well but sitting off axis which is often the case at concerts doesn't really capture their majesty. That sort of burnt, not exactly clear bass combined with the beautiful midrange and treble, it is really special that she recorded her cycle on one. I think I appreciated this much more this time around after acquiring my dream speakers.

Since you mentioned Lucchesini he is tied with Annie Fischer for either my favorite or second favorite. Whenever I hear one or the other I change around my top spot ranking! Both of these are quite romantic interpretations, but where I can see how romantic falls short for some people (Arrau's tempo choices is a complaint I see, but I love the EMI and 1960s Philips recordings no less) Fischer and Lucchesini both play with great brio and never drag their feet. Yet they still have that transcendental late Beethoven quality where it is needed. Seeing Lucchesini play D959 live reaffirmed my faith that his Beethoven cycle wasn't some freak occurrence.

I listened to plenty of Hammerklavier recordings and 2020 still has not brought me the perfect Hammerklavier. Stewart Goodyear still has the best tempo and playing I've heard from the opening movement but I find it lacking in imagination in the Adagio and closing movement. Lucchesini remains my absolute favorite for those last two movements, that dark descent into hell followed by climbing out of it in the final movement, I've never heard from anyone as perfectly. I should revisit his EMI recording, I've had this CD forever but haven't played it in a very long time.

Murray Perahia - I get it, we're supposed to love what he lays down. The print reviewer's darling pianist. The impeccably polite, tows the line big label company man. A perfectly fine middle of the road interpretation of the Hammerklavier that will not offend anyone. But there are way too many recordings of Beethoven to accept middle of the road. As an example Wilhelm Kempff's 78 and DG mono might just barely make my own personal top 7-8 spot out of 10 which would imply that they are somehow lesser interpretations/artistry but I still play the hell out of them. An example of just how good the competition is here for cycles and sort of highlighted by Todd's crazy list of just how many recordings exist, not even counting non-cycles.

I like a lot of what Murray Perahia says, I agree with a lot of his points on interpreting the Hammerklavier but his actual playing doesn't seem to capture what he talks about.

https://www.youtube.com/v/4bcCUwODTaQ

And to round it out since I didn't care for any of the three complete cycles I heard this year and same with the numerous individual discs, my personal best of 2020 as far as Beethoven Piano Sonatas go from the AARP crowd:

Andor Foldes Complete DG
Eduardo del Pueyo Complete Philips
Maurizo Pollini live re-recording disc just for Op. 109
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on December 17, 2020, 12:28:40 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 17, 2020, 05:19:26 AM
As to his Beethoven sonata reviews I agree with him generally, even if I disagree about some details. And I think the reviews always are interesting reading.

True dat!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 17, 2020, 03:46:42 PM
Quote from: amw on December 17, 2020, 03:01:21 AM
Angela Hewitt Beethoven Op. 31 no. 3.

I have been enjoying all the Hewitt Beethoven sonatas I've heard so far (have acquired all 8 extant volumes) even though I have a sneaking suspicion that I shouldn't, that she's superficial or mannered or whatever. Her playing is certainly never boring, or ordinary, and at times illuminates aspects of the sonatas that don't usually get brought out. It is generally moderate (but not metronomic) in tempi, but not in dynamics or articulation, and lacks the last word in piano technique or nuance but makes up for it with good sound quality, minimal use of pedal, and a sense of humour.

I struggle at the moment to think of a comparable artist in Beethoven—Steven Osborne is more virtuosic, Charles Rosen uglier, Ikuyo Nakamichi prettier, Kazune Shimizu more smoothed out, but they're all names that came to mind. András Schiff is probably overall the most similar, but their styles have important points of difference (Schiff is generally more overtly eccentric and stilted when it comes to rhythm and phrasing, and more virtuosic, and obviously a Fazioli sounds very different from a Bösendorfer). I think I would rate Hewitt as more successful because her performances flow more naturally, but if you didn't like Schiff, you probably won't like Hewitt either.
To confirm this, listened to Schiff in the same sonata. They are very similar in performance style—limited use of pedal, moderate tempi, correct observation of Beethoven's dynamics and articulation marks, a tendency towards mannerism—but they actually do not sound similar. Schiff plays trills, roulades, broken chords and runs with extreme delicacy and refinement, virtually never plays louder than mezzo-forte, comes across as rhythmically awkward, and apparently has no sense of humour. Hewitt's trills, roulades, broken chords and runs are just average, she virtually never plays softer than mezzo-piano, is rhythmically more fluent (although not to the extent of an Ikuyo Nakamichi), and is fun to listen to.

I'd be curious to hear anyone else's thoughts. I have asked this before, I think, but that was before I had heard any of her sonata recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 17, 2020, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: amw on December 17, 2020, 03:46:42 PMI'd be curious to hear anyone else's thoughts. I have asked this before, I think, but that was before I had heard any of her sonata recordings.


I'd have to revisit her cycle, which I'm buying more as a duty.  It's just never jelled with me.  Your comparison to Nakamichi makes me think maybe I should do some A/Bs, though.  Hmm.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 17, 2020, 04:41:01 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 17, 2020, 04:02:42 PM

I'd have to revisit her cycle, which I'm buying more as a duty.  It's just never jelled with me.  Your comparison to Nakamichi makes me think maybe I should do some A/Bs, though.  Hmm.
I downloaded the Nakamichi cycle earlier this year because it was reissued, I'd never heard of the pianist before, and Sony Classical releases go out of print within about 15 minutes so if you're curious about something you better grab it while you can. (I know someone who used to work for them, and the staff of Sony Classical was completely hollowed out as a division during the 2008 recession and has never recovered.) On first listenings she reminded me enough of Hewitt that I was also tempted to do some A/Bs, and I found that she was more like my memories of Hewitt than Hewitt herself was. I prefer Hewitt slightly in the sonatas where I've heard both, and I suppose the similarities are mostly in the amount of care taken, the moderate tempi and the attention paid to counterpoint.

Quote from: hvbias on December 17, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
I listened to plenty of Hammerklavier recordings and 2020 still has not brought me the perfect Hammerklavier.

The perfect Hammerklavier doesn't yet exist, possibly never will, but mostly because there are very few pianists in sympathy with the work. Of the ones I can remember listening to, in rough order of preference:

Peter Serkin (Graf) A
Peter Serkin (Steinway) A
Stephan Möller A-
Maria Yudina (APR) A-
Steven Osborne A-
Maurizio Pollini (Arkadia) A-
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo) A-
Artur Schnabel B+
Paul Badura-Skoda (Astrée) B+
Georg Friedrich Schenck B+
Beveridge Webster B+
Michael Leslie B+
Charles Rosen 1965 B+
Kazune Shimizu B+
Mitsuko Uchida B+
Hans Richter-Haaser B+
Yuja Wang (YouTube) B
Friedrich Gulda (Decca) B
Solomon Cutner B
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo) B
Michaël Lévinas B
Jeffrey Swann B
Jean-Frédéric Neuburger B
Christoph Eschenbach B
Emil Gilels B
Stephen Kovacevich B-
Yeol Eum Son (YouTube) B-
Charles Rosen 1997 B-
François-Frédéric Guy (Harmonia Mundi) B-
Mikhail Rudy B-
Yusuke Kikuchi C+
András Schiff C+
Charles Rosen 1980s C+
Ursula Oppens C+
Evgeni Koroliov C
Daniel-Ben Pienaar C
Stewart Goodyear C
Andrea Lucchesini (EMI) C
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica) C
Russell Sherman C
Maurizio Pollini (DG) C
Alexei Volodin C
Dina Ugorskaja C-
Michael Korstick C-
Andrew Rangell C-
Paavali Jumppanen C-
HJ Lim D+
Grigory Sokolov (DG) D
Gabriel Chodos D-
Glenn Gould F
Robert Taub F
John Khouri DNC

I did not listen to any of the Hammerklaviers released in 2020, although I sampled some of them (off the top of my head: Fazil Say, Konstantin Lifschitz, Konstantin Scherbakov, Daniel Barenboim V, Minsoo Sohn, Giuseppe Rossi, Filippo Gorini, Théo Fouchenneret, Hisako Kawamura) and the last-named is on its way to me at the moment; will report back as soon as it arrives. I do not expect any of them to rate an A- or above though, although Kawamura and Sohn sound like potential B+ contenders. In 2021 we're definitely getting one from Angela Hewitt, which I'm not sure what to expect from, and potentially one from Martin Roscoe, which will probably be okay.

The ideal pianist for Op. 106 would be Martha Argerich, but she's never shown any interest in the work, and is no longer recording or performing solo repertoire. Ideal pianists who are young enough to still record one, even though they've also never shown any interest that I know of: Marc-André Hamelin, Joseph Moog, Anna Vinnitskaya, Herbert Schuch, Pi-Hsien Chen, Goran Filipec, Hélène Grimaud, Daniil Trifonov, Olga Pashchenko, Andreas Staier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: springrite on December 17, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
Quote from: amw on December 17, 2020, 04:41:01 PM


The perfect Hammerklavier doesn't yet exist, possibly never will, but mostly because there are very few pianists in sympathy with the work.

You may be right.

My personal favorite is Levy (Marston). It is unlike any other.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 17, 2020, 05:01:28 PM
Quote from: springrite on December 17, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
My personal favorite is Levy (Marston). It is unlike any other.
I have never heard it, but based on his recordings of the last three sonatas, I could believe that. Based on those recordings I also have no interest in hearing it. (He strikes me as one of those pianists who genuinely does do eccentric things with phrasing, dynamics, etc, just for the sake of eccentricity—and with a mixed success rate. For example his use of tempo in Op. 110 is successful to my ear, his use of dynamics much less so.)

I don't necessarily mean any offense by this. The last three sonatas and also op. 101 are works in which Beethoven wrote in a huge amount of fantasy and subjectivity and personal expression, and interpreting them in this way can make them more powerful and more appealing, although there are moments demanding stricter adherence to classical and baroque norms (e.g. the fugues, the first three variations in the arietta of op. 111). Op. 106, on the other hand, is a purely neoclassical and almost impersonal creation, a Haydn-Mozart-Bach hybrid although a deeply impassioned and quasi-apocalyptic one, and interpreting it in a fantastical and subjective way (except for certain passages overtly marked espressivo or con grand' espressione throughout the third movement) tends to rob the music of its impact. Notably it is Beethoven's only sonata in the traditional four movements after op. 28, and one he clearly regarded as a "return to normal", a proof that he could still compose in the traditional forms he venerated after the experimentation and proto-Romanticism of his works of 1812-1816.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on December 17, 2020, 05:03:42 PM
Quote from: springrite on December 17, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
You may be right.

My personal favorite is Levy (Marston). It is unlike any other.

Consider Wilhelm Backhaus: (monaural recording mid 1950's):


https://www.youtube.com/v/ShVlZZ2Wo2w
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: aukhawk on December 18, 2020, 03:31:15 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2020, 12:28:25 PM
Perhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.)

Quote from: Todd on December 16, 2020, 12:55:09 PM
An interesting idea.  I'd have to make sure to scale it properly to accommodate Gould.

But then all the rest would just be a small dot at the bottom left.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas,
Post by: Mandryka on December 18, 2020, 03:50:39 AM
Quote from: amw on December 17, 2020, 05:01:28 PM
I have never heard it, but based on his recordings of the last three sonatas, I could believe that. Based on those recordings I also have no interest in hearing it. (He strikes me as one of those pianists who genuinely does do eccentric things with phrasing, dynamics, etc, just for the sake of eccentricity—and with a mixed success rate. For example his use of tempo in Op. 110 is successful to my ear, his use of dynamics much less so.)

I don't necessarily mean any offense by this. The last three sonatas and also op. 101 are works in which Beethoven wrote in a huge amount of fantasy and subjectivity and personal expression, and interpreting them in this way can make them more powerful and more appealing, although there are moments demanding stricter adherence to classical and baroque norms (e.g. the fugues, the first three variations in the arietta of op. 111). Op. 106, on the other hand, is a purely neoclassical and almost impersonal creation, a Haydn-Mozart-Bach hybrid although a deeply impassioned and quasi-apocalyptic one, and interpreting it in a fantastical and subjective way (except for certain passages overtly marked espressivo or con grand' espressione throughout the third movement) tends to rob the music of its impact. Notably it is Beethoven's only sonata in the traditional four movements after op. 28, and one he clearly regarded as a "return to normal", a proof that he could still compose in the traditional forms he venerated after the experimentation and proto-Romanticism of his works of 1812-1816.

There's something strange going on in these three propositions about op 106 just pasted from things you and springrite said. I'm not saying they're contradictory, but there's something about their compatibility which makes me uneasy.

1. (You) Op. 106, on the other hand, is a purely neoclassical and almost impersonal creation, a Haydn-Mozart-Bach hybrid although a deeply impassioned and quasi-apocalyptic one, and interpreting it in a fantastical and subjective way (except for certain passages overtly marked espressivo or con grand' espressione throughout the third movement) tends to rob the music of its impact.

2. (springrite) My personal favorite is Levy (Marston). It is unlike any other.

3. (You). The perfect Hammerklavier doesn't yet exist, possibly never will, but mostly because there are very few pianists in sympathy with the work.

I just think you may be being a bit doctrinaire in your rejection of the expressive approach, especially since searching for it sounds like it's a bit frustrating and at least one person likes Levy, who, I guess, is subjective. I think the tension between your idea that op 106 is impassioned and your rejection of a subjective approach needs to be looked at, that's maybe where the problem lies.

(Sorry, I know it was only a forum post and not a contribution to a tutorial, I probably shouldn't have treated it as one.) 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 18, 2020, 06:21:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 18, 2020, 03:50:39 AM
There's something strange going on in these three propositions about op 106 just pasted from things you and springrite said. I'm not saying they're contradictory, but there's something about their compatibility which makes me uneasy.

1. (You) Op. 106, on the other hand, is a purely neoclassical and almost impersonal creation, a Haydn-Mozart-Bach hybrid although a deeply impassioned and quasi-apocalyptic one, and interpreting it in a fantastical and subjective way (except for certain passages overtly marked espressivo or con grand' espressione throughout the third movement) tends to rob the music of its impact.

2. (springrite) My personal favorite is Levy (Marston). It is unlike any other.

3. (You). The perfect Hammerklavier doesn't yet exist, possibly never will, but mostly because there are very few pianists in sympathy with the work.

I just think you may be being a bit doctrinaire in your rejection of the expressive approach, especially since searching for it sounds like it's a bit frustrating and at least one person likes Levy, who, I guess, is subjective. I think the tension between your idea that op 106 is impassioned and your rejection of a subjective approach needs to be looked at, that's maybe where the problem lies.

(Sorry, I know it was only a forum post and not a contribution to a tutorial, I probably shouldn't have treated it as one.) 

I mean, my view is that the reason so few pianists are in sympathy with Op. 106 is because it's not a piece that lends itself to personal expression. I may simply be using words badly here; it's impassioned in the same way a landscape is dramatic, rather than in the way a play is dramatic. Harmonically, all development in three of the four movements is based on sequences of falling thirds, which makes it not really development at all, since a sequence just goes round in a circle until it gets back to its starting point. Melodically and motivically, all of the musical material is too basic to have much character at all, except in the expressive passages in the slow movement where these basic elements are highly ornamented. The passionate and violent aspects are a result of single-minded rhythmic ostinatos straight out of "middle period" Beethoven combined with dense counterpoint, loud dynamics, intense and constant dissonance, and an almost unprecedented focus on instrumental virtuosity as a compositional element in itself (later to become the norm in the works of composers like Liszt of course). That virtuosity is however not used to produce beautiful and fluent sounds, but calculated to produce harsh and ugly ones, especially on an instrument from Beethoven's time.

I do not reject an expressive or subjective approach completely—but it would have to retain these aspects rather than trying to smooth them over. Every dissonant second, seventh and ninth should still be emphasised; the thickets of practically-incomprehensible counterpoint should not be slowed down and made comprehensible; the piano sound should not be made gentle and beautiful. I do think it's important to bear Beethoven's tempo markings in mind, but not necessarily to follow them (Beethoven himself undoubtedly didn't, not by 1818 with himself mostly deaf and his pianistic skills deteriorating), only to bear in mind what information they convey about the character of each movement. Similarly I do think it's important to obey Beethoven's pedal indications but also think it's perfectly fine to use the pedal much more than that (Beethoven certainly did, all his life), and that it's important to understand what Beethoven's pianos sounded like, even if one does not choose to use one (Beethoven would have written very different sonatas for a Steinway, but his students and students-of-students didn't see any issue playing his music on Bechsteins and Erards).

I do start all my approaches towards any piece of music with the score, if I can get hold of it, rather than from listening to performances (something you recently mentioned in another thread). But also, to be entirely honest, there's a pretty good chance I had this particular view of Op. 106 just because I disliked all of the "expressive" or "subjective" recordings I'd heard prior to studying the score in more detail, and found them—and the sonata as a whole—rather boring. It was the score, and a few early "objective" recordings I heard—the 1967 Gulda in particular, but also Schnabel—that convinced me that it not only made sense (although the proportions of the fugue are miscalculated imo) but was one of Beethoven's better compositions. So it's entirely possible all of this is just me trying to find intellectual reasons to justify a dislike that initially developed as a purely irrational and emotional reaction.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on December 18, 2020, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: amw on December 18, 2020, 06:21:01 AM
I mean, my view is that the reason so few pianists are in sympathy with Op. 106 is because it's not a piece that lends itself to personal expression. I may simply be using words badly here; it's impassioned in the same way a landscape is dramatic, rather than in the way a play is dramatic. Harmonically, all development in three of the four movements is based on sequences of falling thirds, which makes it not really development at all, since a sequence just goes round in a circle until it gets back to its starting point. Melodically and motivically, all of the musical material is too basic to have much character at all, except in the expressive passages in the slow movement where these basic elements are highly ornamented. The passionate and violent aspects are a result of single-minded rhythmic ostinatos straight out of "middle period" Beethoven combined with dense counterpoint, loud dynamics, intense and constant dissonance, and an almost unprecedented focus on instrumental virtuosity as a compositional element in itself (later to become the norm in the works of composers like Liszt of course). That virtuosity is however not used to produce beautiful and fluent sounds, but calculated to produce harsh and ugly ones, especially on an instrument from Beethoven's time.

I do not reject an expressive or subjective approach completely—but it would have to retain these aspects rather than trying to smooth them over. Every dissonant second, seventh and ninth should still be emphasised; the thickets of practically-incomprehensible counterpoint should not be slowed down and made comprehensible; the piano sound should not be made gentle and beautiful. I do think it's important to bear Beethoven's tempo markings in mind, but not necessarily to follow them (Beethoven himself undoubtedly didn't, not by 1818 with himself mostly deaf and his pianistic skills deteriorating), only to bear in mind what information they convey about the character of each movement. Similarly I do think it's important to obey Beethoven's pedal indications but also think it's perfectly fine to use the pedal much more than that (Beethoven certainly did, all his life), and that it's important to understand what Beethoven's pianos sounded like, even if one does not choose to use one (Beethoven would have written very different sonatas for a Steinway, but his students and students-of-students didn't see any issue playing his music on Bechsteins and Erards).

I do start all my approaches towards any piece of music with the score, if I can get hold of it, rather than from listening to performances (something you recently mentioned in another thread). But also, to be entirely honest, there's a pretty good chance I had this particular view of Op. 106 just because I disliked all of the "expressive" or "subjective" recordings I'd heard prior to studying the score in more detail, and found them—and the sonata as a whole—rather boring. It was the score, and a few early "objective" recordings I heard—the 1967 Gulda in particular, but also Schnabel—that convinced me that it not only made sense (although the proportions of the fugue are miscalculated imo) but was one of Beethoven's better compositions. So it's entirely possible all of this is just me trying to find intellectual reasons to justify a dislike that initially developed as a purely irrational and emotional reaction.

Very lucid response, I now understand your ratings for all the ones I have heard except for the C on Pollini DG. I take it the C in Stewart Goodyear is because you said you don't think the opening should be taken at Beethoven's tempo marking? Also there was some discussion that the Arkadia recording of Pollini might not actually be him... and instead Dino Ciani? The recording quality was too poor for me to make a definitive judgement but I didn't hear anything to make me think it wasn't Pollini.

Is it just Op. 106 you feel that should have this objective interpretation or others from Beethoven as well? I recall you liked Pi-Hsien Chen in Op. 111 which was very, very dramatic.

I mentioned Perahia in specific since he seems to have garnered all the professional love with his latest recording. That was the only outside a cycle recording I heard from this year, the other three were from 2020 cycles. Perahia is a pretty straight laced interpretation. If there is any positive to it sounds more like Perahia from his CBS days though when we were discussing it in the Perahia thread here someone thought there might have been some studio wizardry on it to mask some technical deficiencies.

I loved Dina Ugorskaja, to me this is the right (or alternative view) style of eccentric that really worked for me. She brought a detailed, crystalline, almost detached quality to the Adagio. This is sort of like in the style of Pogorelich's weird near pedel-less Op. 111 except her Hammerklavier was far more satisfying since it had some substance. But I completely understand the low rating from what you've written.

Quote from: springrite on December 17, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
You may be right.

My personal favorite is Levy (Marston). It is unlike any other.

Agree, I have yet to hear a late Beethoven recording from Levy that I did not like.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 18, 2020, 10:50:04 AM
In op.106, Is it correct that the differences between the Gulda performances are slight? I am missing the best known Rosen recording (CBS 1968 or 69), again is there a lot of difference to 3 years earlier or 20? years later.
Unfortunately, I find the sound of Peter Serkin's Graf instrument so repulsive that I can listen to this only once in a blue moon...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 18, 2020, 11:12:16 AM
Quote from: amw on December 18, 2020, 06:21:01 AM
I. Harmonically, all development in three of the four movements is based on sequences of falling thirds, which makes it not really development at all, since a sequence just goes round in a circle until it gets back to its starting point. Melodically and motivically, all of the musical material is too basic to have much character at all, except in the expressive passages in the slow movement where these basic elements are highly ornamented. The passionate and violent aspects are a result of single-minded rhythmic ostinatos straight out of "middle period" Beethoven combined with dense counterpoint, loud dynamics, intense and constant dissonance, and an almost unprecedented focus on instrumental virtuosity as a compositional element in itself (later to become the norm in the works of composers like Liszt of course). That virtuosity is however not used to produce beautiful and fluent sounds, but calculated to produce harsh and ugly ones, especially on an instrument from Beethoven's time.

I do not reject an expressive or subjective approach completely—but it would have to retain these aspects rather than trying to smooth them over. Every dissonant second, seventh and ninth should still be emphasised; the thickets of practically-incomprehensible counterpoint should not be slowed down and made comprehensible; the piano sound should not be made gentle and beautiful. I do think it's important to bear Beethoven's tempo markings in mind, but not necessarily to follow them (Beethoven himself undoubtedly didn't, not by 1818 with himself mostly deaf and his pianistic skills deteriorating), only to bear in mind what information they convey about the character of each movement. Similarly I do think it's important to obey Beethoven's pedal indications but also think it's perfectly fine to use the pedal much more than that (Beethoven certainly did, all his life), and that it's important to understand what Beethoven's pianos sounded like, even if one does not choose to use one (Beethoven would have written very different sonatas for a Steinway, but his students and students-of-students didn't see any issue playing his music on Bechsteins and Erards).

I do start all my approaches towards any piece of music with the score, if I can get hold of it, rather than from listening to performances (something you recently mentioned in another thread). But also, to be entirely honest, there's a pretty good chance I had this particular view of Op. 106 just because I disliked all of the "expressive" or "subjective" recordings I'd heard prior to studying the score in more detail, and found them—and the sonata as a whole—rather boring. It was the score, and a few early "objective" recordings I heard—the 1967 Gulda in particular, but also Schnabel—that convinced me that it not only made sense (although the proportions of the fugue are miscalculated imo) but was one of Beethoven's better compositions. So it's entirely possible all of this is just me trying to find intellectual reasons to justify a dislike that initially developed as a purely irrational and emotional reaction.

The other way into it is to say that because the melodic material is so unengaging, I'm thinking of the first movement, then it's the pianists job to embellish it so that it becomes more interesting. I just listened to Levy, I may listen to Kouhri later. Khouri used to be my favourite . . .

If you have the time and the inclination have a listen to Daniel Leech Wilkinson, I can see that his ideas about performance are beginning to make me think

https://soundcloud.com/user-741379440-742582982/challenging-performance-podcast-episode-1
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on December 18, 2020, 11:15:55 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 18, 2020, 10:50:04 AM
In op.106, Is it correct that the differences between the Gulda performances are slight? I am missing the best known Rosen recording (CBS 1968 or 69), again is there a lot of difference to 3 years earlier or 20? years later.
Unfortunately, I find the sound of Peter Serkin's Graf instrument so repulsive that I can listen to this only once in a blue moon...

Out of curiosity is it the Musical Concepts reissue that you are listening to with Peter Serkin's Graf recording? Sadly that reissue uses noise reduction, I couldn't get a feel for what the true sound of the piano was.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 18, 2020, 11:58:49 AM
yes, from 2007. It was the only feasible option at that time, the Pro Arte LP only or in any case long out of print.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on December 18, 2020, 12:50:15 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 18, 2020, 11:58:49 AM
yes, from 2007. It was the only feasible option at that time, the Pro Arte LP only or in any case long out of print.

Gotcha, the Pro-Arte LPs are dollar bin finds in the US. I have been meaning to transfer this, some Richter Philips recordings (handful of early CDs using noise reduction) and one Samuel Feinberg WTC mono LP set to digital for some time. The latter probably requiring the most urgency with my Russian Piano School set's hideous sound; noise reduction, then boosting the upper midrange creating a glassy sound following by addition of fake stereo, yikes. I will update this thread if I ever get around to it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 19, 2020, 02:53:44 AM
If Serkin's LPs had been EURO-bin finds here (if their had been more than a handful of Euro bins for classical LPs in the early 2000s in Germany which I doubt, except maybe in Berlin and then one would have had to be very lucky), it would certainly be different.
But do Feinberg first (I never heard this because of either high prices, even on sources like ebay or warnings such as yours).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 19, 2020, 05:08:53 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 18, 2020, 10:33:00 AM
Very lucid response, I now understand your ratings for all the ones I have heard except for the C on Pollini DG.
I have to revisit that one but I don't recall thinking it was better than average.
QuoteI take it the C in Stewart Goodyear is because you said you don't think the opening should be taken at Beethoven's tempo marking?
No, if anything in the piece should be taken at exactly Beethoven's tempo markings it's the opening of each movement, as was his practice. The C for Goodyear is because he smoothes over all those aspects of the piece that I mentioned, and turns it into a somewhat trivial athletic display.

QuoteAlso there was some discussion that the Arkadia recording of Pollini might not actually be him... and instead Dino Ciani? The recording quality was too poor for me to make a definitive judgement but I didn't hear anything to make me think it wasn't Pollini.
It could be, but I've also heard part of Dino Ciani's Hammerklavier (the sound is even worse) and he interprets at least the first two movements rather differently, and much more subjectively.

Quote
Is it just Op. 106 you feel that should have this objective interpretation or others from Beethoven as well? I recall you liked Pi-Hsien Chen in Op. 111 which was very, very dramatic.
106, 2/3, 22, 28 to some degree, 31/1, and outside the sonatas, the Archduke Trio & most of the symphonies. 111 is a much more subjective piece: the constant shifts in tempo in the first movement, the written-out "cadenza" after the cadential trill in the second movement, and a general tendency towards wild shifts of mood and register. Drama works well there.

Quote
I mentioned Perahia in specific since he seems to have garnered all the professional love with his latest recording. That was the only outside a cycle recording I heard from this year, the other three were from 2020 cycles. Perahia is a pretty straight laced interpretation. If there is any positive to it sounds more like Perahia from his CBS days though when we were discussing it in the Perahia thread here someone thought there might have been some studio wizardry on it to mask some technical deficiencies.
I have never heard the Perahia recording in its entirety; I listened to the first movement but don't remember liking it.

Quote
I loved Dina Ugorskaja, to me this is the right (or alternative view) style of eccentric that really worked for me. She brought a detailed, crystalline, almost detached quality to the Adagio. This is sort of like in the style of Pogorelich's weird near pedel-less Op. 111 except her Hammerklavier was far more satisfying since it had some substance. But I completely understand the low rating from what you've written.
It wasn't much to my taste no—in that particular style I think Gilels is more effective.

Quote from: Jo498 on December 18, 2020, 10:50:04 AM
In op.106, Is it correct that the differences between the Gulda performances are slight?
Slight but fairly noticeable. The Orfeo performance is the best of the three due to a certain amount of rhythmic snap and crispness, youthful enthusiasm perhaps. The Amadeo performance takes a more accurate tempo for the slow movement though.
QuoteI am missing the best known Rosen recording (CBS 1968 or 69), again is there a lot of difference to 3 years earlier or 20? years later.
I'm not sure which one that is, the only three I know of are the ones I listed (1965 paired with Op. 110 on Epic; 1980s-ish in a set of all six late sonatas on CBS/Columbia; 1997 paired with Op. 110 on Music Masters)

Quote
Unfortunately, I find the sound of Peter Serkin's Graf instrument so repulsive that I can listen to this only once in a blue moon...
The sound quality is not ideal (and yes there are significant problems with the CD mastering), but the instrument sounds more or less like any fortepiano when recorded in a realistic environment, as opposed to e.g. the ultra close miked Badura-Skoda. If you don't like it, you don't really like fortepianos, and there's always Peter Serkin's modern piano CD, which is almost as good.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 18, 2020, 11:12:16 AM
The other way into it is to say that because the melodic material is so unengaging, I'm thinking of the first movement, then it's the pianists job to embellish it so that it becomes more interesting. I just listened to Levy, I may listen to Kouhri later. Khouri used to be my favourite . . .
Beethoven himself hated it when pianists added their own ornaments to his music, according to all accounts, but I can't say I haven't been tempted when playing myself. (And some pianists actually do so—Beghin, who I don't like much otherwise, and Colom and Jumppanen, who I do like, although the latter restrained from adding any ornamentation to his playing of the late sonatas—which I think makes those recordings suffer compared to the early ones.)

Khouri simply is not technically capable of playing the Hammerklavier, or really any late Beethoven sonata, and his recordings never struck me as more than a vanity project from a non-pianist who happened to be independently wealthy. I'm glad some people do get pleasure out of them, but if you really want someone who ornaments and embellishes the sonata, I'd go with Frederic Rzewski.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 19, 2020, 05:12:03 AM
Quote from: amw on December 19, 2020, 05:08:53 AM
I have to revisit that one but I don't recall thinking it was better than average. No, if anything in the piece should be taken at exactly Beethoven's tempo markings it's the opening of each movement, as was his practice. The C for Goodyear is because he smoothes over all those aspects of the piece that I mentioned, and turns it into a somewhat trivial athletic display.
It could be, but I've also heard part of Dino Ciani's Hammerklavier (the sound is even worse) and he interprets at least the first two movements rather differently, and much more subjectively.
106, 2/3, 22, 28 to some degree, 31/1, and outside the sonatas, the Archduke Trio & most of the symphonies. 111 is a much more subjective piece: the constant shifts in tempo in the first movement, the written-out "cadenza" after the cadential trill in the second movement, and a general tendency towards wild shifts of mood and register. Drama works well there.
I have never heard the Perahia recording in its entirety; I listened to the first movement but don't remember liking it.
It wasn't much to my taste no—in that particular style I think Gilels is more effective.
Slight but fairly noticeable. The Orfeo performance is the best of the three due to a certain amount of rhythmic snap and crispness, youthful enthusiasm perhaps. The Amadeo performance takes a more accurate tempo for the slow movement though. I'm not sure which one that is, the only three I know of are the ones I listed (1965 paired with Op. 110 on Epic; 1980s-ish in a set of all six late sonatas on CBS/Columbia; 1997 paired with Op. 110 on Music Masters)
The sound quality is not ideal (and yes there are significant problems with the CD mastering), but the instrument sounds more or less like any fortepiano when recorded in a realistic environment, as opposed to e.g. the ultra close miked Badura-Skoda. If you don't like it, you don't really like fortepianos, and there's always Peter Serkin's modern piano CD, which is almost as good.
Beethoven himself hated it when pianists added their own ornaments to his music, according to all accounts, but I can't say I haven't been tempted when playing myself. (And some pianists actually do so—Beghin, who I don't like much otherwise, and Colom and Jumppanen, who I do like, although the latter restrained from adding any ornamentation to his playing of the late sonatas—which I think makes those recordings suffer compared to the early ones.)

Khouri simply is not technically capable of playing the Hammerklavier, or really any late Beethoven sonata, and his recordings never struck me as more than a vanity project from a non-pianist who happened to be independently wealthy. I'm glad some people do get pleasure out of them, but if you really want someone who ornaments and embellishes the sonata, I'd go with Frederic Rzewski.

I prefer the sound of Kouhri's piano to Rzeeski's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 19, 2020, 05:14:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2020, 05:12:03 AM
I prefer the sound of Kouhri's piano to Rzeeski's.
Yes, he's certainly been able to stockpile some nice instruments.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 19, 2020, 07:06:26 AM
No, the Rosen set of the 6 last sonatas was recorded 1968/69, not 1980ish. So I guess you meant that one. How come that the most easily available ones of pianists who did several always seem the worst rated? Surely, there must some unfindable Richter from the Azerbaidshani Radio that is the best....
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brass Hole on December 19, 2020, 07:29:35 AM
Rosen's Op 106 are: 1965 on Epic BC LC 3900 BC 1300 (with 110, reissue 1997 on MusicMasters 67183) and 1971 on Columbia M3X 30938 (late sonatas set, reissue 1994 on Sony 53531). Both miss the music in the name of loyalty to score.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on December 19, 2020, 08:05:41 AM
Quote
I have to revisit that one but I don't recall thinking it was better than average.

I find the performance generally very good and don't see it as diverging much from the score, maybe some uglier forte passages, but this sounds more like limitations for the early digital recording and in general seemed like it was in line with your criteria. But you have his Arkadia ranked high so I will have to revisit that. I was trying to discern if it was Ciani or not (I know very little about him) and in doing that I was focusing on more on if it was Pollini and the approach between it and the DG didn't sound that different.

QuoteNo, if anything in the piece should be taken at exactly Beethoven's tempo markings it's the opening of each movement, as was his practice. The C for Goodyear is because he smoothes over all those aspects of the piece that I mentioned, and turns it into a somewhat trivial athletic display.

Got it, we're on the same page, that is why I only find the opening movement interesting. All that you've wrote I find applies to his cycle as a whole.

Quote
106, 2/3, 22, 28 to some degree, 31/1, and outside the sonatas, the Archduke Trio & most of the symphonies. 111 is a much more subjective piece: the constant shifts in tempo in the first movement, the written-out "cadenza" after the cadential trill in the second movement, and a general tendency towards wild shifts of mood and register. Drama works well there.

Very good information, I will approach these with different ears next time I hear them. I remember your rankings of the symphonies and I take a rather different path with them.

Quote
but if you really want someone who ornaments and embellishes the sonata, I'd go with Frederic Rzewski

Rzewski is quite the character. Is it this performance on Youtube? Within the first minute alone I'd think he is Russel Sherman's long lost twin :)

https://www.youtube.com/v/tGyX5W9a_IE
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 24, 2020, 11:10:48 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 19, 2020, 07:06:26 AM
No, the Rosen set of the 6 last sonatas was recorded 1968/69, not 1980ish. So I guess you meant that one.
I'm not sure why I thought it was recorded in the 80s, but yes. I am wrong sometimes. (most of the time.)

Quote
How come that the most easily available ones of pianists who did several always seem the worst rated? Surely, there must some unfindable Richter from the Azerbaidshani Radio that is the best....
Most pianists seem to do better with the piece when they are young—not only because of the physical difficulties of the music, but also I think because younger musicians are more inclined to follow the score directly, and have not yet necessarily developed their own individual aesthetic convictions about what Beethoven did wrong in the sonata. So it's not an accident that among most of the pianists who recorded the piece multiple times, the earliest recording is to be preferred—as in e.g. Gulda, Pollini, Ashkenazy, Barenboim, also probably Backhaus and Kempff (I have not listened to all their recordings). Meanwhile, record companies tend to focus on releasing later performances, since they can hold the copyright on those for a longer period of time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 25, 2020, 12:05:32 AM
(https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/f74eb159b9d647e768fe066dd0510bc9/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

Hisako Kawamura has already recorded one of Beethoven's "purely objective" sonatas, Op. 7, which did give me an idea of what to expect for this release of the Hammerklavier. She's hardly an "objective" artist the way someone like Gulda is, but rather has developed a subjective and personal style that happens to suit the character of Beethoven's more objective pieces quite well.

Some facts about this recording: in Op. 81a and 106, all of Beethoven's notes, pedal indications, dynamics, articulations and other expressive marks are followed very precisely, and with a high degree of intensity in the amplitude of those expressive marks. Fortes are very loud, pianos are very soft, accents are very sharp, staccatos are very short, et cetera. Op. 90 is less accurate, because she adds many new expressive marks of her own, as pianists are typically tempted to do in Beethoven's more "subjective" works. Tempos in all three sonatas are slightly too moderate by Beethoven's standards, the most accurate movement being the scherzo of Op. 106 (at 2:25). The first movement of the Hammerklavier is 10:58, the adagio 16:42, the fugue 10:05—comparable timings (and character, incidentally, but that's an opinion not a fact) are those by András Schiff and Ursula Oppens, or among recordings entirely different in character, by John Ogdon and Éric Heidsieck. Throughout, Kawamura displays a very well controlled piano touch, to a level comparable to only a handful of other pianists (among the currently living: Arcadi Volodos, Pavel Kolesnikov, Yeol Eum Son, Maria Tipo, etc).

Some opinions about this recording: The control of the piano keyboard is likely to be the main appeal for most listeners (if there is one) but there are three additional aspects that need to be mentioned: character, mannerism and phrasing. The character of every movement of Op. 81a and 106 is almost perfectly realised in spite of the moderate tempos, due to managing the intensity level of the various dynamics and expressive marks, a careful additional use of pedal, and well-judged luftpauses in time and position. If Op. 90 is less successful, it is because the mannerisms in the second movement especially are often intrusive, although more in a Paavali Jumppanen sort of way than a Glenn Gould sort of way, thankfully. These mannerisms undoubtedly also exist elsewhere, but blend in well enough with the character of the music as to be unobtrusive and occasionally even enlightening, drawing attention to details that might otherwise go unnoticed. The phrasing displays sensitivity to the long line, if not always mastery of it. An interesting effect Kawamura resorts to occasionally is stopping or slowing the music in the middle of a longer phrase, but in a way that does not seem to interrupt the momentum of that phrase. That might appeal to Ernst Levy fans, even while nothing else about the recording does.

I actually find this the most successful new Hammerklavier since Steven Osborne's, but there hasn't been much competition, honestly.

Evaluations:
Op. 81a B
Op. 90 C
Op. 106 A-/B+
Overall advice: sample first movement of Op. 106 and second movement of Op. 90 before buying.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 25, 2020, 12:58:03 AM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/468db56ef9055422099fe1cd16627343/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

Quick comparison with the other Op. 106 I thought looked promising this year.

Timings 10:14 / 2:38 / 18:31 / 2:35 / 9:15 (comparable to: François-Frédéric Guy I, Jean-Frédéric Neuburger, Russell Sherman, Charles Rosen I & II)

This recording is less engaging than Kawamura's in a few respects: the slow movement feels much longer and indeed unnecessarily dragged out, mostly as a result of a lack of energy and tension in the playing; the lower end of the intensity scale is not well represented (i.e. the pianos and pianissimos are not soft enough, etc); and the character of the first three movements is only partially conveyed. The first movement lacks the last degree of violence, the scherzo lacks humour, the slow movement lacks sentiment. On the other hand, there is absolutely no mannerism whatsoever, and the fugue is very well played and characterised, essentially "saving" the performance. I'd give it about a B. It's not bad, overall.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: grocklin on December 28, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
I did some analysis of track lengths for fun. Here's the Hammerklavier:

(https://filedn.com/lW7Ttzw12kX7Bl54PYanID5/hammer.png)

Here's all 32 sonatas. (https://filedn.com/lW7Ttzw12kX7Bl54PYanID5/fullgraphic150.png) I think the track lengths mostly indicate overall speed, but sometimes there is variation in whether a repeat is taken or not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 28, 2020, 03:20:19 PM
When making track length timetables (which I have done for the Hammerklavier and Op. 109 and 111, at least) I usually add the length of the repeats to recordings without them in order to get a more accurate picture. Of course track length itself doesn't correlate exactly to prevailing tempo, so it can be useful to open your metronome app (something everyone should have, of course) and tap in time with the recording you're examining in order to determine their approximate tempo.

I've analysed a lot of recordings of the Hammerklavier but have not looked at all of them, and especially have tended to ignore recordings on the extreme slower end, which are usually by amateurs or professionals well past their prime. Have not made a graph but here's the fastest and slowest that I've recorded for each movement:

1 Allegro - Schnabel 8:49 / Gould 14:28
2 Assai vivace - Möller & Buchbinder Teldec both 2:17 / Rangell 3:15
3 Adagio sostenuto - Lim 12:50 / Korstick 28:42
4 Largo - Backhaus mono 1:13 / Solomon 3:18
5 Allegro risoluto - Goodyear 8:12 / Lortie 11:37
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brass Hole on December 30, 2020, 05:17:48 AM
Here is another perspective to tempo and timing...  :) This is from Schabel's Beethoven Op 27/2 I.Adagio sostenuto.The dark vertical lines are bars, light vertical lines are crotchet boundaries. The expressive timing information is represented by the
dots and phase shifts are represented by lines. If the dot is above the tempo graph, he is late relative to the time
predicted by the underlying tempo; if the dot is below he is early. You can see how Schnabel progresses through until the end of the first complete phrase after four bars in one long breath where generally other performers stop with each bass note at the beginning of the bar...or slow at the beginning of each bar:

(https://i.ibb.co/pyXWxmK/schnabel.png)

Edit: This is Pollini's:

(https://i.ibb.co/zVN2rLs/pollini.png)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on December 30, 2020, 04:02:41 PM
Quote from: Brass Hole on December 30, 2020, 05:17:48 AM
Here is another perspective to tempo and timing...  :) This is from Schabel's Beethoven Op 27/2 I.Adagio sostenuto.The dark vertical lines are bars, light vertical lines are crotchet boundaries. The expressive timing information is represented by the
dots and phase shifts are represented by lines. If the dot is above the tempo graph, he is late relative to the time
predicted by the underlying tempo; if the dot is below he is early. You can see how Schnabel progresses through until the end of the first complete phrase after four bars in one long breath where generally other performers stop with each bass note at the beginning of the bar...or slow at the beginning of each bar:

(https://i.ibb.co/pyXWxmK/schnabel.png)

Edit: This is Pollini's:

(https://i.ibb.co/zVN2rLs/pollini.png)

Oh god I see an antidromic reentry tachycardia in that second image. Flashbacks to getting tortured with obscure EKGs as an M3 student shudder
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 31, 2020, 01:04:08 AM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/119c1ded537db8f1ad6807758fa64771/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

New release, somewhat of a curiosity: three Beethoven sonatas (the Waldstein having the Andante favori incorporated as slow movement) performed on a 102-key grand piano designed in 2015.

I call it a curiosity only because on a very cursory listen of about three minutes' worth, the piano sounds interesting (much more like a period instrument than one might expect) but the pianist sounds pretty boring. If you listen and find out he's not, let me know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 31, 2020, 06:51:31 AM
Quote from: amw on December 31, 2020, 01:04:08 AM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/119c1ded537db8f1ad6807758fa64771/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

New release, somewhat of a curiosity: three Beethoven sonatas (the Waldstein having the Andante favori incorporated as slow movement) performed on a 102-key grand piano designed in 2015.

I call it a curiosity only because on a very cursory listen of about three minutes' worth, the piano sounds interesting (much more like a period instrument than one might expect) but the pianist sounds pretty boring. If you listen and find out he's not, let me know.


The concept reminds me of Gerard Willems' cycle on a super-sized Stuart & Sons piano, just limited.  Which reminds me, that piano maker now has a 108 key, nine octave instrument.  If Mr Weber records an entire cycle, I will buy it to buy it, but otherwise, I'll probably pass.

Georges Pludermacher uses a Paulello, though an earlier one, in his Debussy and Ravel sets for Transart.  Perhaps I should revisit those.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Hobby on February 23, 2021, 06:32:45 AM
Hi Todd
I'm new to the forum. Some time back you posted a guide to the different characters of Beethoven cycles. Eg
Intense, strong: Annie Fischer
Fast, lean, intense: Friedrich Gulda (Amadeus) etc..
Is there any chance of you updating that useful guide as you've added so many cycles since that posting?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 24, 2021, 07:30:11 AM
Quote from: Hobby on February 23, 2021, 06:32:45 AM
Hi Todd
I'm new to the forum. Some time back you posted a guide to the different characters of Beethoven cycles. Eg
Intense, strong: Annie Fischer
Fast, lean, intense: Friedrich Gulda (Amadeus) etc..
Is there any chance of you updating that useful guide as you've added so many cycles since that posting?


That would prove somewhat challenging for many of the fourth tier sets and perhaps even third tier sets, and would necessitate sampling from all cycles.  That, in turn, would require coming up with a representative sample of sonatas to assess whole cycles quickly.  I'm thinking 10/3, 31/3, 53 or 78, and 110 would do the trick.  Hmm.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Hobby on February 25, 2021, 07:26:32 AM
I'd settle for your top two tiers. Sampling core key works also a good way of reducing the huge (and much appreciated) effort required.
Occasionally you've threatened to do a shootout for one or more of the late sonatas, perhaps most often op 111. I really enjoyed the insights in the one on op31.3. Again it may be good to largely confine to your top two tiers, perhaps with judicious additions based on recall of special items.
This whole thread has really opened my eyes as someone brought up on Gramophone and related guides and thus biased to Gilels, Kempff, Uchida, Goode, Lewis, etc. I adore Steven Osborne's playing in almost everything including his Beethoven. But I've made great discoveries since exploring further with the aid of Qobuz - hadn't really appreciated op 31 fully - love Kosuge in these. Crawford in late sonatas also a great discovery. You haven't yet quite converted me to St Annie.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Hobby on February 25, 2021, 09:51:12 AM
I'd be happy if you went for op53 as the Gilels recording of 53, 57 and 81a has long been one of my all time favourite CDs and I could learn about alternatives perhaps.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 25, 2021, 11:18:19 AM
My favorite Waldstein's:

1. Rudolf Serkin (mono) tied with Josef Hofmann (Casimir recital)
2. Annie Fischer tied with Emil Gilels
3. Horowitz
4. Schnabel
5. Hungerford
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2021, 12:10:59 PM
Quote from: Hobby on February 25, 2021, 09:51:12 AM
I'd be happy if you went for op53 as the Gilels recording of 53, 57 and 81a has long been one of my all time favourite CDs and I could learn about alternatives perhaps.

This sonata's first movement really needs the percussive timbres of a proper Beethoven piano, so I suggest Paul Komen. But if you really insist on a modern instrument then Paul Jacobs. Pollini also rather good.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 25, 2021, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: George on February 25, 2021, 11:18:19 AM
My favorite Waldstein's:

1. Rudolf Serkin (mono) tied with Josef Hofmann (Casimir recital)
2. Annie Fischer tied with Emil Gilels
3. Horowitz
4. Schnabel
5. Hungerford

One of my favourite (if not top choice) LvB PS is Op 53.

My top choices are mainly played in a similar manner.

Rudolf Serkin '52
Dubravka Tomsic
Solomon
Bruce Hungerford

So George and I agree on two performers (not surprising as we seem to have similar tastes in certain areas).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on February 25, 2021, 03:59:57 PM
for the Waldstein I would name:

- Martha Argerich (which I hope gets issued someday, if a complete recording can be found)

and secondarily:

- Paul Badura-Skoda [Astrée]
- Michaël Lévinas
- Paul Komen
- Bruce Hungerford

but it has been hard for me to find really memorable recordings of this piece; these are just the ones that have been played most often in my library. (Which also contains: Alexei Lubimov, Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo), Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Ragna Schirmer, Radu Lupu, András Schiff, Stephen Kovacevich, Annie Fischer (EMI), Rudolf Firkušný, György Cziffra, Maria Tipo, Takahiro Sonoda, Russell Sherman, Angela Hewitt, Steven Osborne, Stewart Goodyear, Edwin Fischer, Michael Korstick, Paavali Jumppanen, Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo), Artur Schnabel, Stephan Möller, Kazune Shimizu (Sony), Rudolf Serkin (unspecified date), Yusuke Kikuchi, and probably another 2-3 recordings yet uncatalogued. Some of these have not yet been listened to.)

My issue with recordings is generally that the first movement is taken too slowly—Allegro con brio in 4/4 demanded a tempo of at least 80 to the half note—and the rondo is taken too quickly—Allegretto moderato was for Beethoven a quite slow tempo of maybe about 69 to 84 to the quarter note. An ideal recording would therefore have a first movement (with repeat) of around nine and a half minutes, and a rondo of about eleven minutes. Additionally many pianists overuse the pedal in the first movement, where it should be almost entirely eschewed in favour of a dry and percussive piano sound, while not using it quite enough in the rondo, which is built around long pedals that blur together the harmonies and passing notes. Period instrument recordings are therefore usually preferable.

I don't really have the energy to write up mini-reviews of a bunch of Op. 53 performances but I could put together a rating system of some kind.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 04, 2021, 06:25:04 AM
Ernst Gröschel (18 December 1918 in Nuremberg – 5 May 2000 in Zams, Tirol) was a German pianist. Gröschel studied with Emil von Sauer and others in Vienna. He is regarded as the first pianist who played Mozart and Beethoven completely on historical keyboard instruments. He was a member of the Bamberg Piano Quartet.[1] He left behind a large number of recordings both on vinyl and in the archives of the Bayerischer Rundfunk.[2][3][4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Gr%C3%B6schel


And here's his Beethoven!

https://soundcloud.com/user-985460328/sets/ernst-groschel-spielt-beethoven-fortepiano

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2021, 06:44:29 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 25, 2021, 03:09:11 PM
One of my favourite (if not top choice) LvB PS is Op 53.

My top choices are mainly played in a similar manner.

Rudolf Serkin '52
Dubravka Tomsic
Solomon
Bruce Hungerford

So George and I agree on two performers (not surprising as we seem to have similar tastes in certain areas).

For your consideration..


From 1950, Wilhelm Backhaus:

https://www.youtube.com/v/eSWwn6fNaGI

YouTube offers a 1969 live performance, but it has a great amount of hiss in the background.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mabuse on May 04, 2021, 11:50:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2021, 06:25:04 AM
Ernst Gröschel (18 December 1918 in Nuremberg – 5 May 2000 in Zams, Tirol) was a German pianist. Gröschel studied with Emil von Sauer and others in Vienna. He is regarded as the first pianist who played Mozart and Beethoven completely on historical keyboard instruments. He was a member of the Bamberg Piano Quartet.[1] He left behind a large number of recordings both on vinyl and in the archives of the Bayerischer Rundfunk.[2][3][4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Gr%C3%B6schel


And here's his Beethoven!

https://soundcloud.com/user-985460328/sets/ernst-groschel-spielt-beethoven-fortepiano

Nice find, Mandryka  :)
(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/19/91/80/91/sans_t33.png)

(Few more stuff by Ernst Gröschel on YT : https://music.youtube.com/browse/UC6YaieOkcRzbt0tkFMG6xqw (https://music.youtube.com/browse/UC6YaieOkcRzbt0tkFMG6xqw) )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on May 04, 2021, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2021, 06:25:04 AM
Ernst Gröschel

And here's his Beethoven!

https://soundcloud.com/user-985460328/sets/ernst-groschel-spielt-beethoven-fortepiano

Thanks for sharing this. To me he has always been just a name, and I didn't know, that these recordings existed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 04, 2021, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: mabuse on May 04, 2021, 11:50:59 AM
Nice find, Mandryka  :)
(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/19/91/80/91/sans_t33.png)

(Few more stuff by Ernst Gröschel on YT : https://music.youtube.com/browse/UC6YaieOkcRzbt0tkFMG6xqw (https://music.youtube.com/browse/UC6YaieOkcRzbt0tkFMG6xqw) )

Yes I think Walter Zimmermann's sound-cloud page is full of treasures.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on May 04, 2021, 12:20:56 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 04, 2021, 12:17:06 PM
Thanks for sharing this. To me he has always been just a name, and I didn't know, that these recordings existed.

I'm looking forward to exploring them -- let's post here with our responses.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on June 22, 2021, 08:52:26 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51MbancGwfL._AC_.jpg)

This has a really interesting Waldstein - fast, intense, playful, nuanced. Without checking it reminds me of Paul Jacobs but Pierre Boyer has the benefit of a proper Beethoven piano, so it has colour and percussiveness. This is how op 106/i should be - but Boyer hasn't ventured there on record as far as I know. Highly recommended.

Pierre Boyer is turning out to be a special piano player for me - his Schumann is equally fresh and revealing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on June 25, 2021, 02:00:26 AM
(https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/03167731bc22b46755aeb67ff213cb1a/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

Is anyone familiar with this?

Olga Pashchenko gets Op. 7, 22 and 111; Alexei Lubimov gets Op. 2/1, 10/1-3, 13, 27/2, 49/1, 53 and 109.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on June 25, 2021, 06:25:02 AM
Wow, no, but that is interesting. Martynov is also a somewhat known quantity for his Liszt-transcribed symphony cycle, and I've...heard of Zuev?

As Todd might say, Pashchenko needs to quit teasing us and do all 32.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 05, 2021, 05:48:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 25, 2021, 06:25:02 AMAs Todd might say, Pashchenko needs to quit teasing us and do all 32.


Yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 05, 2021, 05:49:24 PM
(https://www.naxos.com/images/feature/sep21/8.509005.png)


Also, yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 05, 2021, 05:50:25 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/815r3D8tihL._SS500_.jpg)

And another yes.  An unexpected cycle that I bought because it exists.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2021, 06:29:36 PM
Welcome back!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on September 06, 2021, 04:13:20 AM
Todd sometime you'll have to post a picture of your massive wall of Beethoven PS recordings! :laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 06, 2021, 04:46:14 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 06, 2021, 04:13:20 AM
Todd sometime you'll have to post a picture of your massive wall of Beethoven PS recordings! :laugh:


Not much to look at, I'm afraid.  It's a combination of:

(https://media.tractorsupply.com/is/image/TractorSupplyCompany/1652191?)

and

(https://pisces.bbystatic.com/image2/BestBuy_US/images/products/6425/6425302_sd.jpg;maxHeight=640;maxWidth=550)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2021, 05:39:43 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71sc9GM6COL._SY450_.jpg)


Another new cycle starts.  Will it finish?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 09, 2021, 06:13:05 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Nn5864M6L._SX425_.jpg)


Davide Cabassi is up to the fourth volume in his on-going cycle.  His Schumann and Soler discs don't make me want to buy his LvB as they come out, but if he ever finishes, I will have to buy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mabuse on October 12, 2021, 12:10:08 PM
A slightly off-topic message, but because I think there are Annie Fischer aficionados around here ...
France Musique recently released an archive from 1959 featuring a recital by this pianist:
https://www.francemusique.fr/emissions/les-tresors-de-france-musique/recital-de-la-pianiste-annie-fischer-en-1959-98491 (https://www.francemusique.fr/emissions/les-tresors-de-france-musique/recital-de-la-pianiste-annie-fischer-en-1959-98491)

Program :
Georg Frederic Handel
Chaconne in G major, HWV 435

Ludwig van Beethoven
Piano Sonata, No.24 in F sharp major, Op. 78

Franz Schubert
4 impromptus, op. 142, D. 935

Béla Bartók
15 Hungarian peasant songs

Radiodiffusion Télévison Française (RTF), January 2, 1959.

(Extra : Franz Liszt, 6th study for piano after Paganini, S. 141)


It's a great document !
I would be curious if anyone is already familiar with this recording (?)

(Francophones should also appreciate the impeccable diction of the presenter of the time  :D )

EDIT:
I see this has already been released :
(https://img.discogs.com/axoaW5wyzRbBrrJKslI4AW0G34I=/fit-in/500x444/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-14042988-1566686109-1200.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Scion7 on October 12, 2021, 01:00:02 PM
^ She reminds me of Hillary Hawn's grandmother - or something like that!   :blank:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mabuse on October 14, 2021, 05:08:27 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on October 12, 2021, 01:00:02 PM
^ She reminds me of Hillary Hawn's grandmother - or something like that!   :blank:

Hmm... There is indeed a little resemblance to Hillary Hahn.

But otherwise young Annie Fischer did not look like her at all:
(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/19/91/80/91/3a8a3010.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: mabuse on October 14, 2021, 06:13:19 PM
(http://www.artalinna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Yumeto-Suenaga-Cover-1110.jpg)
Artalinna (2020)

A very valuable 2cds album by young french/japanese pianist Yumeto Suenaga.
The program combines great works by Beethoven with lighter pieces, as well as few recent works by composer Isabelle Fraisse...
It's rather daring and I like it a lot.

Program :
Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
33 Veränderungen über einen Walzer von Diabelli, Op. 120
Große Fuge, Op. 134 (Beethoven'arrangement for Piano Four-Hands of String Quartet Op.133)
Piano Sonata No. 32, Op. 111
Rondo a capriccio, Op. 129
Bagatelle (Klavierstück), WoO 60
Klavierstück, WoO 61
Bagatelle (Klavierstück), WoO 61a (Hess 56)
Waltz, WoO 84
Bagatelles, Op. 119 (6 excerpts)
Ecossaise, WoO 86
Waltz, WoO 85
Isabelle Fraisse (1949-)
3 Moqueries sur une valse de Diabelli
111 - dialogue avec l'opus 111 de Beethoven

For my taste, the sound recording is a little too close to the instrument, but that doesn't bother me too much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kapsweiss2021 on October 20, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
Some new cycles:

Yingge Yan, winner of Beethoven Piano Competition in Bonn (Completed in 2020)

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ba/5d/kx8a2hze25dba_600.jpg)

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5afbac63ec4eb7af2948aeb8/1598709862140-QS77RQ4PZHSHZDQCEGO1/CD1-3cover.jpg)

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/jb/vj/uk45p16c5vjjb_600.jpg)


Adam Golka First Volume in First Hand Records:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/fb/i2/il9l7b0u3i2fb_600.jpg)

He has a Youtube channel with interviews with some piano masters about 32 sonatas
Sonata No.1 with Leon Fleischer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpzq3i1w3tQ&t=168s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpzq3i1w3tQ&t=168s)

Sonata No. 21 "Waldstein" with Alfred Brendel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwfQRvItY4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwfQRvItY4Q)

etc.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on October 20, 2021, 11:41:33 PM
Quote from: kapsweiss2021 on October 20, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
Some new cycles:

Yingge Yan, winner of Beethoven Piano Competition in Bonn (Completed in 2020)

Adam Golka First Volume in First Hand Records:

He has a Youtube channel with interviews with some piano masters about 32 sonatas
Sonata No.1 with Leon Fleischer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpzq3i1w3tQ&t=168s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpzq3i1w3tQ&t=168s)

Sonata No. 21 "Waldstein" with Alfred Brendel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwfQRvItY4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwfQRvItY4Q)

etc.

It has become almost impossible to keep up with all the many new Beethoven piano sonata sets and especially to find out if they are worth hearing / owning. I just ordered Giltburg's set and Buchbinder III myself, but completeness in this field is risky and costly.

BTW your first post. Welcome to our forum, which I hope you will enjoy.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on October 21, 2021, 01:56:10 PM

The Giltburg set is superb IMHO. Quite swift tempos (Gulda like?) and a superbly voiced Fazioli piano with great clarity, at least as played by Giltburg. A real find
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on October 21, 2021, 04:18:33 PM
Quote from: kapsweiss2021 on October 20, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
Some new cycles:

Yingge Yan, winner of Beethoven Piano Competition in Bonn (Completed in 2020)

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ba/5d/kx8a2hze25dba_600.jpg)

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5afbac63ec4eb7af2948aeb8/1598709862140-QS77RQ4PZHSHZDQCEGO1/CD1-3cover.jpg)

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/jb/vj/uk45p16c5vjjb_600.jpg)


This is good, btw. Along with Yu Kosuge, who recently became available on streaming for the first time (but has otherwise been out for ages), falls into the category of "good enough for me to listen to the whole thing but not quite good enough to justify adding to my collection".

Giltburg wasn't very interesting to me, nor Golka, nor Heide, etc, but they will definitely appeal to some people. I wouldn't compare Giltburg to Gulda, since Gulda's playing is much more straightforward and uninterpreted, whereas Giltburg struck me as somewhat mannered; would compare him more to someone like Kawamura (who I like) or Gould (who is good in a few sonatas but terrible in the majority).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on October 22, 2021, 04:07:08 AM
I listened to the last volume from Giltburg, the first two movements of 109 were very strange but I liked the rest of that volume, actually closing movement of 109 had me listening quite intently. After finishing I thought that movement was played much slower than it sounded but actual timing was not that eccentric; one of my favorites comes in at a bit over 14 minutes. I'll probably listen to the full cycle to see if it's worth buying. Sadly the Hammerklavier timings don't look that interesting.

Plus one to what the other poster said on the Fazioli, the tone is gorgeous.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 22, 2021, 11:06:57 AM
Chose a short sonata at random from Giltburg and chose very poorly - No. 9 (Op. 14 No. 1), which it turns out he plays with glacial slowness. Painfully dull. Going to put on Yusuke Kikuchi as soon as the finale ends to wash the unpleasant flavor out. The piano sounds fine but the recording is so close-up and cramped that I unfortunately can't get the sense of color which everyone else is describing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on October 22, 2021, 12:48:54 PM
I picked Op. 109 for a comparison of Giltburg, Yan, Gulda (Amadeo), Badura-Skoda (Naïve Astrée), Crawford, in that order. My priors also had this as a preference order from least favoured to most but I was curious as to what a fresh listen would do.

Giltburg I found somewhat dull, slow, soft-edged and with occasional disruptive agogics. Maybe I just don't like Faziolis. Yan was much better, more straightforward but still with the basic elements of fantasy and dissociation that I associate with this sonata. Still a bit slow, but it didn't disturb me as much. Gulda was again an improvement, playing with actual power and passion where called for by the score; he also was slower than I'd remembered, as he actually downplays the dissociative and fantasy elements and attempts to weld the sonata into a cohesive dramatic arc, which tends to involve flattening the tempo relations somewhat. Badura-Skoda was the best of all, an intense (somewhat fast) reading that made all the others sound undercooked by comparison, but not much of a surprise there since along with Tipo/Crawford it's one of the great performances. Crawford was interesting here, because the interpretation is in many ways similar to Yan in particular but is totally transformed in effect by the nature of the instrument she uses. I think those two, or Crawford/Giltburg, would make in and of themselves good A:Bs for the interested. I usually like Crawford even more than PBS, and while I wasn't totally feeling it for most of the time today, her final variation is always transformative and ecstatic in emotional effect, in a way no one else in this particular mini-comparison appeared to aim at.

Anyway, I guess they're all pretty good, but my preference order was justified
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on October 22, 2021, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: kapsweiss2021 on October 20, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
Yingge Yan, winner of Beethoven Piano Competition in Bonn (Completed in 2020)

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ba/5d/kx8a2hze25dba_600.jpg)

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5afbac63ec4eb7af2948aeb8/1598709862140-QS77RQ4PZHSHZDQCEGO1/CD1-3cover.jpg)

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/jb/vj/uk45p16c5vjjb_600.jpg)


Hmm.  Was aware of cycle, was not aware it was complete.  Perhaps I should buy, allowing a full Giltburg-Yan comp.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on October 22, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 22, 2021, 11:06:57 AM
Chose a short sonata at random from Giltburg and chose very poorly - No. 9 (Op. 14 No. 1), which it turns out he plays with glacial slowness. Painfully dull. Going to put on Yusuke Kikuchi as soon as the finale ends to wash the unpleasant flavor out. The piano sounds fine but the recording is so close-up and cramped that I unfortunately can't get the sense of color which everyone else is describing.

You weren't kidding, it sounds like he takes 10 minutes in the opening movement. I chose HJ Lim to wash it out ;D (since this humor might not translate well, I'm completely joking)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on October 22, 2021, 06:56:24 PM
Quote from: hvbias on October 22, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
You weren't kidding, it sounds like he takes 10 minutes in the opening movement. I chose HJ Lim to wash it out ;D (since this humor might not translate well, I'm completely joking)
Oh, I get the humor  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on October 23, 2021, 12:04:54 AM
What are favorites in op.14#2 (I piece I like much more than #1)? It's one of the few Beethoven pieces where I prefer a rather slowish lyrical indulgent first movement. That makes e.g. Richter a bit too fast/intense. Gilels who is probably the slowest I have is unfortunately way too slow in the second movement (basically ignoring the alla breve). A really dark horse I quite liked is Cziffra (EMI introuvables or big box).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on October 23, 2021, 04:30:21 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 23, 2021, 12:04:54 AM
What are favorites in op.14#2 (I piece I like much more than #1)? It's one of the few Beethoven pieces where I prefer a rather slowish lyrical indulgent first movement. That makes e.g. Richter a bit too fast/intense. Gilels who is probably the slowest I have is unfortunately way too slow in the second movement (basically ignoring the alla breve). A really dark horse I quite liked is Cziffra (EMI introuvables or big box).

Won't meet your requirement for slow first movement or probably the taste of most people, this is one of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/v/qQhWuoPWWwY
Title: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: lordlance on December 11, 2021, 01:11:29 PM
I am sure there are approximately 50 threads dedicated to Beethoven PS recs but I come with different needs:
1) I actually find most instrumental and chamber music intolerable because they can often lack the electricity orchestral music can generate (I am sure people will disagree with that.) Sure in piano transcendental etudes is an hour long marathon of manic music but I have often found piano music sorely lacking in the ferocity that orchestral music can bring (for example Chopin - Mazurkas most notably - and even my beloved Liszt in Vallee d'obermann which bored me to death.)
2) Keeping 1 in mind I am looking for a cycle that's high-octane and explosive in energy and not necessarily "subtle" for I don't think I would appreciate those attributes.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 12, 2021, 10:25:30 AM
The easy answer would be HJ Lim, who is very fast, totally unsubtle, frequently very loud, but also rather sloppy (wrong notes) and tasteless. I know Gulda has a better reputation as a member of the loud and fast school of playing but I don't know his cycle too well.
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2021, 11:09:17 AM
Quote from: lordlance on December 11, 2021, 01:11:29 PM
I am sure there are approximately 50 threads dedicated to Beethoven PS recs but I come with different needs:
1) I actually find most instrumental and chamber music intolerable because they can often lack the electricity orchestral music can generate (I am sure people will disagree with that.) Sure in piano transcendental etudes is an hour long marathon of manic music but I have often found piano music sorely lacking in the ferocity that orchestral music can bring (for example Chopin - Mazurkas most notably - and even my beloved Liszt in Vallee d'obermann which bored me to death.)
2) Keeping 1 in mind I am looking for a cycle that's high-octane and explosive in energy and not necessarily "subtle" for I don't think I would appreciate those attributes.

Thank you.

Sviatoslav Richter.  Maria Yudina. Stephen Kovacevich. Annie Fischer. Maurizio Pollini. Emil Gilels (not on DG). Wilhelm Backhaus.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: lordlance on December 12, 2021, 11:15:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 12, 2021, 11:09:17 AM
Sviatoslav Richter.  Stephen Kovacevich. Annie Fischer. Maurizio Pollini.

Any specific Richter recordings?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2021, 11:20:16 AM
Quote from: lordlance on December 12, 2021, 11:15:35 AM
Any specific Richter recordings?

Yes - early ones, before his heart trouble.  How about this?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Richter-Leipzig-Beethoven-recording-remastered/dp/B00G2IQJX6

(I've just put it on. If you can tolerate the sound it is exactly what you want, or I'll eat my hat. Electric, fast, symphonic, lots of wallop.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 12, 2021, 11:46:08 AM
Most of the sonatas are actually not like the "Appassionata" but often lyrical or playful pieces...

- Gulda (amadeo) is fast and "straightforward", but not loud and despite lack of romantic flexibility actually quite consistently obeying dynamics and score markings. It's just that he usually slows down only a little at "ritenuto" or similar passages and that the bas tempo is usually fast. For me, it's a "classic" and mandatory listening up to the Waldstein and for op.106 and 111.
- Kocsis' disc with op.2/1, op.10/1, op.13 and 31/2
- Rudolf Serkin in op.13 and 57. Like Annie Fischer, often a bit rough.
- Pollini with the live op.22 and Waldstein (DG late 1990s)
- all Gelber on Denon; not unsubtle, more "romantic" than any of the others I mentioned but fastish and intense.
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: JBS on December 12, 2021, 11:46:54 AM
Quote from: lordlance on December 11, 2021, 01:11:29 PM
I am sure there are approximately 50 threads dedicated to Beethoven PS recs but I come with different needs:
1) I actually find most instrumental and chamber music intolerable because they can often lack the electricity orchestral music can generate (I am sure people will disagree with that.) Sure in piano transcendental etudes is an hour long marathon of manic music but I have often found piano music sorely lacking in the ferocity that orchestral music can bring (for example Chopin - Mazurkas most notably - and even my beloved Liszt in Vallee d'obermann which bored me to death.)
2) Keeping 1 in mind I am looking for a cycle that's high-octane and explosive in energy and not necessarily "subtle" for I don't think I would appreciate those attributes.

Thank you.

I'm not sure the complete cycle is what you want. TBH, I prefer the opposite approach.
I suggest focusing on the Appassionata sonata--which needs to be played the way you like things played--and finding a pianist you like in that single piece, then following up with whatever else they recorded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2021, 12:09:01 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 12, 2021, 11:46:08 AM
Most of the sonatas are actually not like the "Appassionata" but often lyrical or playful pieces...



Not sure you're right there, the barnstorming aesthetic seems totally central to core Beethoven performance practice to me, from op 2 to op 120. There may be lyrical and playful moments of course, even in the Appassionata. And what lordlance asks for seems to me exactly what the Beethoven heads here often praise to the skies -- electric, high octane, ferocious . . .

Levitt may be another good one for him to think about -- at least if the recordings resemble the concerts (I have heard the recordings)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: amw on December 12, 2021, 01:40:18 PM
For incredibly intense and explosive playing it's hard to recommend anyone other than Schnabel, and most pianists vary from sonata to sonata in that regard. Annie Fischer and Steven Kovacevich come close in some respects. Friedrich Gulda in others (and modern-day pianists who imitate him—Yusuke Kikuchi, Valentina Lisitsa). Peter Serkin might also be a good choice, and Pollini is decent. I've never liked Richter but many people do.

It's probably easier to ask for recordings of specific sonatas that utilise that aesthetic.
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: George on December 12, 2021, 03:31:00 PM
Quote from: lordlance on December 11, 2021, 01:11:29 PM
I am sure there are approximately 50 threads dedicated to Beethoven PS recs but I come with different needs:
1) I actually find most instrumental and chamber music intolerable because they can often lack the electricity orchestral music can generate (I am sure people will disagree with that.) Sure in piano transcendental etudes is an hour long marathon of manic music but I have often found piano music sorely lacking in the ferocity that orchestral music can bring (for example Chopin - Mazurkas most notably - and even my beloved Liszt in Vallee d'obermann which bored me to death.)
2) Keeping 1 in mind I am looking for a cycle that's high-octane and explosive in energy and not necessarily "subtle" for I don't think I would appreciate those attributes.

Thank you.

For a complete set, given your preferences, I would say Kovacevich on EMI would be the best fit.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2021, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 12, 2021, 12:09:01 PM
Not sure you're right there, the barnstorming aesthetic seems totally central to core Beethoven performance practice to me, from op 2 to op 120.

The barnstorming is appropriate in some pieces and movements, less so in others. A piece can also be "electric" and playful at the same time, e.g. the 8th symphony or maybe a sonata like op.31/3.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MusicTurner on December 13, 2021, 02:11:14 AM
- Appassionata with Gilels, Moscow 1961
- Opus 111 with Gould
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 13, 2021, 02:44:22 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on December 13, 2021, 02:11:14 AM
- Appassionata with Gilels, Moscow 1961

Absolutely the best Op 57. Richter's 1960 Moscow performance was close to that.
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 13, 2021, 04:16:46 AM
Quote from: George on December 12, 2021, 03:31:00 PM
For a complete set, given your preferences, I would say Kovacevich on EMI would be the best fit.
+1
(https://img.discogs.com/PpjTud0AMy7FsF5wbTDlDK0VR78=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-5155426-1386087284-8840.jpeg.jpg)

PD
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: premont on December 13, 2021, 06:13:24 AM
Quote from: George on December 12, 2021, 03:31:00 PM
For a complete set, given your preferences, I would say Kovacevich on EMI would be the best fit.

Also the first set, which came to my mind after reading the OP.
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: George on December 13, 2021, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 13, 2021, 06:13:24 AM
Also the first set, which came to my mind after reading the OP.

Great minds think alike.   8)
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 15, 2021, 03:24:44 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 13, 2021, 04:16:46 AM
+1
(https://img.discogs.com/PpjTud0AMy7FsF5wbTDlDK0VR78=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-5155426-1386087284-8840.jpeg.jpg)

PD

Yes. I have that set. And like most of it. I actually find Kovacevich too much to handle in the Appassionata specifically... but maybe that's a good sign.
Title: Re: Recommendation for Beethoven's piano sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 15, 2021, 03:44:14 AM
Quote from: George on December 13, 2021, 03:01:13 PM
Great minds think alike.   8)
Don't know his earlier recordings of them.

Quote from: Madiel on December 15, 2021, 03:24:44 AM
Yes. I have that set. And like most of it. I actually find Kovacevich too much to handle in the Appassionata specifically... but maybe that's a good sign.
To be honest, it's not my favorite set--though I know a lot of people think well of it.  Most of his playing is not my cup of tea.  I'm more of a Kempff or Gilels gal.  I thought though that the person asking for a recommendation (see higher up in the thread) would like them though.

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 15, 2021, 04:04:24 AM
The earlier Philips Kovacevich has only 8 sonatas op.10/1,13, 31,2+3, 101, 109-111, better sound and is less relentless. I had 3 or 4 discs of the EMI recordings and got rid of all but op.2 and I don't really like that one very much. Therefore could never be bothered to get the whole box when it became dirt cheap.
Gulda and Pollini have been charged with being nothing but fast and relentless but I think this fits better for Kovacevich/EMI and the unpleasant sound gives them an even more brutal edge.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on December 16, 2021, 01:13:00 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 15, 2021, 04:04:24 AM
I had 3 or 4 discs of the EMI recordings and got rid of all but op.2 and I don't really like that one very much.

If I recall correctly, he re-recorded op.2 for the box (or by the time the box was released).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: lordlance on December 19, 2021, 11:58:02 AM
Thanks for the recommendations, people. Because of certain circumstances, I happen to download all of Hewitt's Beethoven discs on Hyperion. Any thoughts on them? I am hearing No. 25 at the moment and it's well-played as far as my ears can tell. I heard Vol. 8 and 9 and am now going through Vol. 7.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 16, 2022, 05:17:31 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61PFI0BnQDL._SX425_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91JUq4WO3DL._SS425_.jpg)


For about a half dozen sonatas, I did an A/B between Boris Giltburg and Jingge Yan in much the same manner that I did with Minsoo Sohn and Konstantin Scherbakov, but I quickly realized that the new duo did not rise to the level of Sohn, so my interest waned, so now there is only the broadest of comparisons to make.  In general, Giltburg is the more interventionist of the two, always fiddling with this or that – dynamics, rubato, etc – sometimes obtrusively, most of the time not, but it's not for people who want their Beethoven straight-forward.  His style does no real favors to the early sonatas, always sounding too fiddly.  But come the middle sonatas, his style works better, including in an excellent Op 31 trio and quite good, if not world-beating Op 5x sonatas.  The late sonatas do not measure up to the best, but his playing always sounds intriguing, and his execution is quite fine.  Yan is more straight-forward, though he, too makes sure to inject personality in a way some may not like as much.  In general, his early sonatas work well, sounding brisk, energetic, and mostly no-nonsense.  He maintains a similar demeanor in the middle sonatas, which does not work as well, though he's generally not bad at all.  I write "generally" because the second movement of Op 54 is a dud, and Op 57 mostly sounds slow and stiff.  Yan recovers splendidly in Opp 78 and 79, and then moves into nice enough late sonatas.  Both end up in the third tier, though I suspect I will spend more time revisiting Giltburg in the coming years.



(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71AC5AKXbfL._SY425_.jpg)


Figured I might as well finish off another cycle, too, by listening to Angela Hewitt's last installment.  It is not the highlight of her cycle.  Op 106 takes just over of 46', and while slow approaches can work, hers does not.  It just bores, straight throughout.  I kinda dozed off in the Adagio during the first listen – for real.  Never a good sign.  Op 111 comes in at a chunky 31'+.  The first movement lacks bite and drive, and the second movement, while lovely at times, just doesn't work.  With one notable exception.  During the last trill chains, Hewitt plays the left-hand part with a perfect blend of delicacy and weight and clarity that really makes it stand out.  While it cannot make up for everything, it nonetheless captivates.  A fourth-tier cycle for me.  YMMV.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on February 16, 2022, 05:21:11 PM
With three new cycles down:

Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-20 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi


Second Tier - Remainder (in alphabetical order)
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Younwha Lee

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Aquiles Delle Vigne
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Boris Giltburg
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira
Igor Levit
Irina Mejoueva
Jingge Yan
John O'Conor
Jonathan Biss
Konstantin Scherbakov
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Bilson, et al (Beghin is second tier)
Malcolm Binns
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Angela Hewitt
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Daniel Barenboim (DG, 2020)
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Konstantin Lifschitz
Llŷr Williams
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch
Martino Tirimo   
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Robert Benz
Robert Taub
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland


Eighth Circle of Hell
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on February 23, 2022, 04:36:02 PM
Revisited this op. 109, 110 after far too long, both are up there with my favorites, but that 110 is something else entirely. There is a feeling of intense hanging uncertainty in the final movement. Now I know why I don't play it often, it sort of hangs with me the entire day.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61rewj4BAyL._SS600_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: pianoforever on March 09, 2022, 07:39:42 AM
Todd, I haven't seen Solomon Cutner in your lists. What's your perspective?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 09, 2022, 12:22:28 PM
Quote from: pianoforever on March 09, 2022, 07:39:42 AM
Todd, I haven't seen Solomon Cutner in your lists. What's your perspective?


It has been many years since I last listened to any of his recordings, and then only a limited number of them.  I was not a fan at the time.  I'd have to revisit anew to see if that has changed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on March 10, 2022, 01:57:47 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 09, 2022, 12:22:28 PM

It has been many years since I last listened to any of his recordings, and then only a limited number of them.  I was not a fan at the time.  I'd have to revisit anew to see if that has changed.

I would be interested to read your comments to Solomon's LvB sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on March 10, 2022, 12:48:43 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 10, 2022, 01:57:47 AM
I would be interested to read your comments to Solomon's LvB sonatas.

My first Waldstein recording was the Solomon and I still rate it highly. The first movement has that necessary forward impetus and the juxtaposition with the Introduzione/Adagio is very well done to create a contrast in both dynamic s and expression. The Rondo is taken at the correct speed of Allegretto. Solomon's sparkling and superbly articulated fingerwork (especially in I) is what is need to bring out the inner and outer voices.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: pianoforever on March 11, 2022, 02:15:22 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 09, 2022, 12:22:28 PM

I was not a fan at the time.  I'd have to revisit anew to see if that has changed.

I'd be curious to get your point of view. I'm new joiner, but from the little I've seen so far, I find myself largely sharing your taste. I used to rather like him..though re-listening to him recently I found him a tad too polite
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on March 26, 2022, 05:06:51 PM
Quote from: pianoforever on March 09, 2022, 07:39:42 AM
Todd, I haven't seen Solomon Cutner in your lists. What's your perspective?

I'm not Todd, but I think he is excellent on a number of sonatas:

Op. 2/3, Op. 27/1, Op. 27/2, Op. 54 and Op. 106

I own the Testament CDs.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on March 26, 2022, 11:24:38 PM
To me, Solomon nails Op 27/2, especially the first movement. He takes it slower than most and does not treat it like the soubriquet attached to it - Moonlight. There is nothing about the moon glinting warmly on Lake Lucerne in this composition. This is a dark and brooding movement with much of the 'melody/tune' coming out in the left hand. The key of C# minor is one of the clues.

In many pianists performances, the speed of the first movement seems almost to be the same as the second movement Allegretto because many play it almost at Allegretto speed. In the three Solomon performances there is a clear tempo contrast (getting faster) which makes perfect sense and it leads perfectly on to the Presto agitato.

..and yes, Solomon recorded the Moonlight twice. First in 1945. There were a number of takes between June 10 and August 10. The second time was August 21st 1952. This is the version we usually hear. I thought I had a copy of the 1945 recording but I don't. I've certainly heard it but can't remember where I would access it. Finally there is a radio broadcast from Berlin and it appears to be in stereo and was available from APR. This is the fastest of Movement I but not by much.

Found the 1945 on You Tube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK__kS2R3-w
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on March 27, 2022, 03:26:21 AM
Quote from: Holden on March 26, 2022, 11:24:38 PM
To me, Solomon nails Op 27/2, especially the first movement. He takes it slower than most and does not treat it like the soubriquet attached to it - Moonlight. There is nothing about the moon glinting warmly on Lake Lucerne in this composition. This is a dark and brooding movement with much of the 'melody/tune' coming out in the left hand. The key of C# minor is one of the clues.

Copying what Edwin Fischer has written in his Beethoven Piano Sonatas book, he seems to be in agreement with you.

Scarcely any sonata has had so much written about it as op. 27 no. 2 though it only lasts sixteen minutes. In Beethoven's own time it was called Laube (Arbour) sonata because it was thought to have been composed in an arbour. The nickname Moonlight Sonata came from the poet Rellstab who was inspired to call it that by a moonlit night on the Lake of Lucerne. [...] From various facts that come to my knowledge I have conceived a different theory of the origin of the work which I should like to mention here without claiming any historical authenticity for it.

There is in Vienna a manuscript of Beethoven's which contains a few lines from Mozart's Don Giovanni in Beethoven's undoubted hand: the passage after Don Giovanni has killed the Commendatore. Underneath Beethoven has transposed the passage into C sharp minor, and the absolute similarity of this with the first movement of op. 27 no. 2 is quite ummistakable. In particular the postlude is note for note as in Mozart.

At the time one of Beethoven's aristocratic friends died and was laid out in state in his palace. One night Beethoven is said to have improvised as he sat by the corpse of his friend; is it so unlikely that Beethoven was reminded of the similar scene in Don Giovanni and that this was the reason for the striking similarity which we have mentioned? In any case, there is no romantic moonlight in this movement: it is rather a solemn dirge.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 02, 2022, 07:25:31 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71hBrQ6XdkL._SY425_.jpg)

A May release.  Unless Ms Chemin recorded everything anew, this looks to be the second longest gestating cycle after Pollini's.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2022, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 02, 2022, 07:25:31 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71hBrQ6XdkL._SY425_.jpg)

A May release.  Unless Ms Chemin recorded everything anew, this looks to be the second longest gestating cycle after Pollini's.

Are you already familiar with this pianist?  i.e. looking forward to this?  I've never heard of her, TBH.    :-\

😎🤠
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on April 02, 2022, 09:15:35 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2022, 08:38:42 AMAre you already familiar with this pianist?  i.e. looking forward to this?  I've never heard of her, TBH.


I only know who she is because she had several volumes of a purported complete cycle available for years - since I started collecting cycles at the start of the century.  Never heard any of her playing.  I will soon enough.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2022, 10:04:56 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 02, 2022, 09:15:35 AM

I only know who she is because she had several volumes of a purported complete cycle available for years - since I started collecting cycles at the start of the century.  Never heard any of her playing.  I will soon enough.

Ah. Intrepid. :D

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 02, 2022, 01:51:25 PM
Quote from: Todd on April 02, 2022, 09:15:35 AM
I only know who she is because she had several volumes of a purported complete cycle available for years - since I started collecting cycles at the start of the century.  Never heard any of her playing.  I will soon enough.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2022, 10:04:56 AM
Ah. Intrepid. :D

Guys - my interest is piqued just in anticipation of Todd's comments -  8)  She has a short but impressive bio HERE (http://www.murielchemin.com/biography/); also listed below on Amazon for release in early May at the pre-order price shown - no info except that it contains 10 discs - will hold my breath!  :laugh:  Dave

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/ClassicMusic/i-smQM7Xx/0/037362d0/XL/BeethovenSonatasChemin-XL.png)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on April 02, 2022, 04:10:19 PM
There is a 2000 recording by her on Youtube of op 57.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on April 24, 2022, 02:52:26 PM
I saw this mentioned in the new releases thread, it's now up on Qobuz. With the caveat that I might not have been in the mood, too tired, etc I was not too taken by op. 49/1 or the Pastoral Sonata, I have not heard op. 109 or 111 (I might have that 111 on another BBC disc). Surprising to me is that op. 109 is from 1987, maybe one of the latest recordings of hers?

(https://i.imgur.com/amvYHJf.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on June 09, 2022, 12:50:31 PM
Updated with Muriel Chemin's cycle added.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-21 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Irina Mejoueva (Bijin)
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi


Second Tier - Remainder (in alphabetical order)
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Younwha Lee

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Aquiles Delle Vigne
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Boris Giltburg
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira
Igor Levit
Irina Mejoueva
Jingge Yan
John O'Conor
Jonathan Biss
Konstantin Scherbakov
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Bilson, et al (Beghin is second tier)
Malcolm Binns
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Muriel Chemin
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Angela Hewitt
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Daniel Barenboim (DG, 2020)
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Konstantin Lifschitz
Llŷr Williams
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch
Martino Tirimo   
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Robert Benz
Robert Taub
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Walter Gieseking (Tahra)
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland


Eighth Circle of Hell
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2022, 07:38:27 AM
Hi Jens,

I have been revisiting a few of my Beethoven sets that I had yet to evaluate and compare with some of my other sets and since this is partially due to your post, I wanted to reply here. As you know, I also have the mono and stereo Backhaus sets, but have never compared them. Until now. I got started last night and found that the first sonata performance in the stereo was just as good as the mono and since the sound is so much better on the stereo, it wins! So far then, stereo set 1, mono set 0.

However, looking at the booklets, it is clear that in the mono set the slow movements are less rushed in almost every case and since I found a number of the slow movements in the stereo to be too fast, I think this bodes well for the mono.   

Quote from: jlaurson on February 01, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
With Backhaus, especially, but then again also Kempff, it's important to note that with the Stereo cycle you get OLD Backhaus, the artist... and with the Mono cycle you get the very nearly as OLD Backhaus, the artist. The early stuff of his career is fascinating, to the extent it survives, and the sound is horribly restrained so as to barely make it worthwhile listening to.

I get what you are saying here and to an extent I agree. However, I think it is important to note a few things. First, I would say that the mono set, is certainly OLD Backhaus (he was ages 66-70 while recording it), I would say that the stereo set, is OLDER Backhaus (he was ages 74-85 while recording it.) And Backhaus died at 85.

QuoteAlso: If you don't like Backhaus Stereo, I would be quite surprised if you found Backhaus Mono a grand improvement.

Absolutely!

Quote(I do see a point for the Kempff mono cycle being appreciated more than the stereo-remake,

Agreed again! I think the mono Kempff is a clear and consistent improvement over the stereo set. I think Kempff excels in 18 of the 32 in the mono and only 4 of the 32 in the stereo. And thankfully, the mono DG sound for Kempff is a lot better than the mono Decca sound for Backhaus.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 23, 2022, 08:27:48 AM
Quote from: George on July 23, 2022, 07:38:27 AM
I think Kempff excels in .... only 4 of the 32 in the stereo.

Which four do you think of, if I may ask?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2022, 08:46:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 23, 2022, 08:27:48 AM
Which four do you think of, if I may ask?

Hi premont!

Stereo DG - Op. 28, 101, 110, 111.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 23, 2022, 08:50:27 AM
Kempff seems to have a special affinity for Op 28, at least for me.  All four recorded versions are top notch.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 23, 2022, 10:32:27 AM
Quote from: George on July 23, 2022, 08:46:07 AM
Hi premont!

Stereo DG - Op. 28, 101, 110, 111.

I agree that these may be the cream of the set, particularly op 28. But I think many of the others are almost as good. Op. 2/1, 10/2, 14/2, 26, 31/2, 31/3, 78 and the slow movement of op.106. And generally I find the set more musically satisfying and rewarding than the efforts of many sets from more technically gifted pianists, eg. Goode, Lewis, Yokoyama, Ciccolini, Gieseking and even Gulda.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 23, 2022, 05:04:29 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41Tmu8BfZwL._AC_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91rNzfQ0BkL._SL500_.jpg)

I've now compared the Backhaus mono and stereo sets and have listed my findings below. I'd like to address a few quick points first. The more I compared, the more I felt that the sound of the stereo was not only a great deal better than the mono, I felt that the beauty of his playing was hard to separate from the actual sound quality. The stereo set has a beautiful sound that seems to highlight Backhaus's playing, and especially the tone of his instrument, in an attractive light. Still, I did my best to separate this from the actual performances, so the results below represent my best attempt at judging only the performances of these two sets. Since the mono Op. 106 is used in both sets, I only had 31 sonatas to compare. In the end, I thought the performance of 8 of the sonatas was better on the mono set, while 23 of the sonatas were better in the stereo set.     

Op.2/1 - Stereo a bit better.
Op. 2/2 - The mono is notably better. While I find parts of the stereo version to be a bit clumsy, I hear none of that in the mono.
Op. 2/3 - The mono is much better, superb energy in the first movement. Impressive playing here.
Op. 7 -  The mono has a slower slow movement, which is good because I find the stereo to be too quick. I like the mono a bit more.
Op. 10 - The mono is a bit better in all three, more solid playing.   
Op. 14 - The mono is a bit better in each, again more solid playing.
Op. 22 - The mono is a bit better, but it is close.
Op. 26 - Stereo
Op. 27 - Stereo for both
Op. 28 - Stereo
Op. 31- Stereo for all three
Op. 49 - Stereo for both
Op. 53 - Stereo
Op. 54 - Stereo
Op. 57 - Stereo
Op. 78 - Stereo
Op. 79 - Stereo
Op. 81a - Stereo
Op. 90 - Stereo
Op. 101 - Stereo
Op. 106 - Mono only
Op. 109 - Stereo
Op. 110 - Stereo
Op. 111 - Stereo
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 24, 2022, 07:27:54 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 23, 2022, 10:32:27 AM
I agree that these may be the cream of the set, particularly op 28. But I think many of the others are almost as good. Op. 2/1, 10/2, 14/2, 26, 31/2, 31/3, 78 and the slow movement of op.106. And generally I find the set more musically satisfying and rewarding than the efforts of many sets from more technically gifted pianists, eg. Goode, Lewis, Yokoyama, Ciccolini, Gieseking and even Gulda.

Thanks, I have some time tomorrow and will revisit those Kempff stereo recordings. I do recall listening to just the slow movement of his stereo Op. 106 one day, sitting in a park, and found it absolutely gorgeous.

I had the Goode and Ciccolini and let them go, but the Gulda Amadeo/Brilliant Classics set remains in my top 3 Beethoven Sonata sets. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MusicTurner on July 24, 2022, 07:52:24 AM
op.106 in the stereo set is the Beethoven/Kempff highlight for me, especially the slow movement (together with the Emperor Concerto/Leitner).
I also have the earlier Decca mono LP version, but it didn't appeal in the same way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: André on July 24, 2022, 12:27:27 PM
I've finished listening to the Claude Frank cycle. It's musical, sturdy and sometimes probing, but not really illuminating. One feature I like in this cycle is the way each disc features sonatas from different periods, sort of a single disc recital concept. Frank's approach reminds me of Anton Kuerti's, although the latter is more systematic in his brusque, irascible conception of Beethoven. The sound is okay.

Commencing Michael Korstick's cycle. Disc 1 down, with the works presented chronologically this time (the 3 opus 2 sonatas). I find the playing very solid and the sound is much more present. Korstick too adheres to a tensile, volatile view of the music. The slow movement of sonata 2 was a real highlight.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 24, 2022, 01:40:03 PM
Quote from: André on July 24, 2022, 12:27:27 PM
I've finished listening to the Claude Frank cycle. It's musical, sturdy and sometimes probing, but not really illuminating. One feature I like in this cycle is the way each disc features sonatas from different periods, sort of a single disc recital concept. Frank's approach reminds me of Anton Kuerti's, although the latter is more systematic in his brusque, irascible conception of Beethoven. The sound is okay.

Commencing Michael Korstick's cycle. Disc 1 down, with the works presented chronologically this time (the 3 opus 2 sonatas). I find the playing very solid and the sound is much more present. Korstick too adheres to a tensile, volatile view of the music. The slow movement of sonata 2 was a real highlight.

Compared to Kuerti's contrieved version I find Frank's interpretation very natural. I have listened to Frank a bit recently and find him very musical and illuminating. BTW I try to avoid a direct comparison of recordings. When you don't find Frank illuminating it may be because others already have done similar things, but I don't find this detracts from Frank's version because every version must be considered as an individual integrated whole (maybe a bit clumsy expressed on my part (English isn't my first tongue), but I trust that you understand my point).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 24, 2022, 02:06:05 PM
Quote from: George on July 24, 2022, 07:27:54 AM
I had the Goode and Ciccolini and let them go, but the Gulda Amadeo/Brilliant Classics set remains in my top 3 Beethoven Sonata sets.

I have never understood the praise of Gulda's version. Yes, he masters the sonatas technically and more than that, but on the musical level I often find him sub par, with a tendency to rush through the music particularly in fast movements. In some of the slow movements he is more reflective, but this doesn't make up for the other shortcomings. I rate Backhaus and Kempff very much higher than Gulda, because their purpose of playing the sonatas is much more than trying to get through the music as fast as possible. Yes, for musical reasons Gulda isn't but second tier IMO (Todd's classification).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on July 24, 2022, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 24, 2022, 02:06:05 PM
I have never understood the praise of Gulda's version. Yes, he masters the sonatas technically and more than that, but on the musical level I often find him sub par, with a tendency to rush through the music particularly in fast movements. In some of the slow movements he is more reflective, but this doesn't make up for the other shortcomings. I rate Backhaus and Kempff very much higher than Gulda, because their purpose of playing the sonatas is much more than trying to get through the music as fast as possible. Yes, for musical reasons Gulda isn't but second tier IMO (Todd's classification).

What I don't like about Kempff and to some extent Backhaus, the slowish fast movements and the "old" feel of their playing, is what I like about Gulda - nice and energetic fast movements and a feeling that this is a youthful Beethoven. Not the only way to do things, but one I highly enjoy. I guess what you hear as "getting through the music as fast as possible" I hear as someone greatly enjoying the music that they are playing, kind of like Gould with Bach.   

Someone who seems to have some of Kempff's qualities, especially the beauty in playing, is Lucchesini's cycle. Here I think it works splendidly. He's another in my top three LvB sets, if not my top.

Not saying I am right in any objective sense, my friend, just wanted to share/explain my preferences. And while I have had sets come and go in my collection, Kempff's and Backhaus's will be staying for the duration.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MusicTurner on July 24, 2022, 07:03:32 PM
Quote from: André on July 24, 2022, 12:27:27 PM
I've finished listening to the Claude Frank cycle. It's musical, sturdy and sometimes probing, but not really illuminating. One feature I like in this cycle is the way each disc features sonatas from different periods, sort of a single disc recital concept. Frank's approach reminds me of Anton Kuerti's, although the latter is more systematic in his brusque, irascible conception of Beethoven. The sound is okay.

Commencing Michael Korstick's cycle. Disc 1 down, with the works presented chronologically this time (the 3 opus 2 sonatas). I find the playing very solid and the sound is much more present. Korstick too adheres to a tensile, volatile view of the music. The slow movement of sonata 2 was a real highlight.

I culled Frank's cycle as unengaging, and kept Kuerti and Korstick. I don't see much similarity between Kuerti and Frank however; Kuerti is too indididual in his style and ~sound, I think. The highlight in Kuerti is probably Der Sturm.

I like Gulda in the concertos/Stein set, but his various sonata recordings mostly leave me rather cold.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 24, 2022, 07:05:54 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 24, 2022, 02:06:05 PM
I have never understood the praise of Gulda's version. Yes, he masters the sonatas technically and more than that, but on the musical level I often find him sub par, with a tendency to rush through the music particularly in fast movements. In some of the slow movements he is more reflective, but this doesn't make up for the other shortcomings. I rate Backhaus and Kempff very much higher than Gulda, because their purpose of playing the sonatas is much more than trying to get through the music as fast as possible. Yes, for musical reasons Gulda isn't but second tier IMO (Todd's classification).

I'm of the same opinion. I bought the complete Amadeo(?) set and try as I might, as soon as he got past the early period sonatas I lost interest and I did really try to like them. Yes, there was the odd well played slow movement but generally the impression I got was that he just wanted to get through them as quickly as possible. I did get a chance to audition the first set he did for Orfeo and this is the one I like the best out of the three. I have a Gulda box set that I'll never listen to again if anyone is interested. Strangely enough, I really like his WTC.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: MusicTurner on July 24, 2022, 07:17:11 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 24, 2022, 07:05:54 PM
I'm of the same opinion. I bought the complete Amadeo(?) set and try as I might, as soon as he got past the early period sonatas I lost interest and I did really try to like them. Yes, there was the odd well played slow movement but generally the impression I got was that he just wanted to get through them as quickly as possible. I did get a chance to audition the first set he did for Orfeo and this is the one I like the best out of the three. I have a Gulda box set that I'll never listen to again if anyone is interested. Strangely enough, I really like his WTC.

I agree about early Gulda being often the most interesting. I don't like his WTC, but for example the early Debussy Preludes etc. sets, and the Chopin 1st Concerto/Boult (great sense of line and progression, yet flexibility in tempi, also some peculiar details in the orchestra, via the Balakirev version !).

There's a good Membran 10 CD box with that stuff, including some early Beethoven sonata recordings (I missed the opportunity of getting an inexpensive Orfeo set).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 24, 2022, 11:25:43 PM
Quote from: George on July 24, 2022, 05:33:00 PM
What I don't like about Kempff and to some extent Backhaus, the slowish fast movements and the "old" feel of their playing, is what I like about Gulda - nice and energetic fast movements and a feeling that this is a youthful Beethoven. Not the only way to do things, but one I highly enjoy. I guess what you hear as "getting through the music as fast as possible"
As a lot of this music is youthful and energetic (roughly all up to op.31), Gulda's approach fits very well. I also like him in the two more "objective/classicist" late sonatas, 106 and 111.

Quote
Not saying I am right in any objective sense, my friend, just wanted to share/explain my preferences. And while I have had sets come and go in my collection, Kempff's and Backhaus's will be staying for the duration.
I have heard only to about a half dozen sonatas by each but I find both Wilhelms among the most overrated Beethoven players ever. (And I grew up with reading accolades of Kempff as "grand old man", although I guess Arrau and Brendel were more heavily marketed in the 1980s).
Backhaus is similarly "cool" as Gulda, just not as energetic. Kempff is for me mostly just "lame", not in the sense of slow but of lacking any extremes of playing or expression the music seems to demand. He makes the music appear small. It's not Kinderszenen...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on July 29, 2022, 10:01:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2022, 11:25:43 PM
As a lot of this music is youthful and energetic (roughly all up to op.31), Gulda's approach fits very well. I also like him in the two more "objective/classicist" late sonatas, 106 and 111.
I have heard only to about a half dozen sonatas by each but I find both Wilhelms among the most overrated Beethoven players ever. (And I grew up with reading accolades of Kempff as "grand old man", although I guess Arrau and Brendel were more heavily marketed in the 1980s).
Backhaus is similarly "cool" as Gulda, just not as energetic. Kempff is for me mostly just "lame", not in the sense of slow but of lacking any extremes of playing or expression the music seems to demand. He makes the music appear small. It's not Kinderszenen...

Just a contrasting opinion, not trying to force your mind on anything I've written below. I find Hammerklavier and op. 111 lean quite into the tumultuous nature of what I associate with the romantic era. I am actually surprised to see three other people feel the same way I do about Gulda (Amadeo), I thought I was the lone opinion that thought these were superficial and lacking any great insight into the late sonatas.

Kempff was the second cycle I heard after Arrau and I did not care for it either. His interpretations slowly grew on me, as I said in the Annie Fischer thread his studio recordings from the 1920s through 1940s were among my most played Beethoven Piano Sonatas in the last couple of years. I have heard Kempff referred to as small scale, and that I can agree with, it sounds to me like "chamber music" Beethoven which for me an interesting approach to the music, an alternate view.

As for Backhaus I find more than just his tempi, there is much that is interesting in his piano playing. I don't know if this was just how he knew to play piano, or he was doing it on purpose but it's very much a different style of playing from Kempff and his Austro-German peers at the time. Like his left hand playing is not always in sync with the right, and his emphasis on the downbeat not always being where we would expect it: https://youtu.be/MyK86fEDbCU . I came to him with the stereo cycle but didn't really understand why Backhaus was so revered. It was after hearing the mono Decca cycle and how Backhaus sounds more spontaneous and less measured that I came to really appreciate what he was doing (I personally care more about interpretation than recording quality). Interestingly many of his later live recordings sound more like Backhaus on the mono cycle (and why I always keep an eye out for these) than the stereo cycle with how inspired and a bit more off the cuff his playing sounds. I don't hear him as cool like Gulda, but instead rigid and unwavering but for me still has that great late Beethoven sound world.

(And to tie off the big Wilhelms, just listened to Furtwängler in one of my favorite works :laugh: )
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 30, 2022, 01:25:54 AM
op.106 and 111 are formally far more classicist than opp. 101, 109, 110. That's what I meant. op.57 is also "tumultous" but that does not make it un-classical. I admit that some of my fondness for Gulda might be that it was a recording I got rather early (although for most sonatas it was more like the 3rd recording I heard, not the first, I had the Gilels box and most sonatas cobbled together with different pianists before I got the Gulda in the late 1990s) and listened to a lot in the past. It's also that 20 years ago Gulda's was about the only easily findable fast (in movements 1+3) op.106.

A few day ago I listened to Backhaus/stereo op.13, 27/2, 57 and 81a and I liked it more than last time, maybe op.81a best. op.13 had an uncommon slowing down for a subsidiary theme in the 1st movement I found a romantic touch that didn't really fit with his general approach (and then the 2nd movement was very fleet). I would call these 4 mostly good to very good, "solid" interpretations, but I don't quite get why they should be very special or among the very best.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 30, 2022, 05:40:59 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 30, 2022, 01:25:54 AM
op.106 and 111 are formally far more classicist than opp. 101, 109, 110. That's what I meant.

Hmm. I'll give you op.106 as a good solid 4-movement work. But I'm not sure what your criteria are for the others. For example op.109 starts with an excellent sonata form. It was being made to realise that it was sonata form that made me love it more. I guess Beethoven manages to make it not sound like what you'd expect for a sonata form, but it is.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 30, 2022, 09:02:25 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 30, 2022, 05:40:59 AM
Hmm. I'll give you op.106 as a good solid 4-movement work. But I'm not sure what your criteria are for the others. For example op.109 starts with an excellent sonata form. It was being made to realise that it was sonata form that made me love it more. I guess Beethoven manages to make it not sound like what you'd expect for a sonata form, but it is.
You are correct, but also in your implication that it takes some effort to recognize it and the piece will probably even at third listen give the impression of a somewhat rhapsodic change between the fast and slow sections.
Op.110 even has an easily recognizable sonata form first movement, and so does the finale of 101, incl. repeat. It's not simply a matter of form, I should have tried better to express what I meant. Nevertheless, I think these three are a bit similar overall to the two "fantasy sonatas" op.27 (whereas op.106 and 111 almost seem stress the "regularity" of form) with uncommonly lyrical first movements and uncommon sequence of movements overall and demand a more flexible/expressive style. Gulda can be straightforward to a fault, so I understand that people do not appreciate this approach in these sonatas whereas I think the "straightness" or "objectivity" has a lot of merit in the other two late sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on July 30, 2022, 01:31:47 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 30, 2022, 09:02:25 AM
You are correct, but also in your implication that it takes some effort to recognize it and the piece will probably even at third listen give the impression of a somewhat rhapsodic change between the fast and slow sections.
Op.110 even has an easily recognizable sonata form first movement, and so does the finale of 101, incl. repeat. It's not simply a matter of form, I should have tried better to express what I meant. Nevertheless, I think these three are a bit similar overall to the two "fantasy sonatas" op.27 (whereas op.106 and 111 almost seem stress the "regularity" of form) with uncommonly lyrical first movements and uncommon sequence of movements overall and demand a more flexible/expressive style. Gulda can be straightforward to a fault, so I understand that people do not appreciate this approach in these sonatas whereas I think the "straightness" or "objectivity" has a lot of merit in the other two late sonatas.

Thanks. Don't apologise for how you have expressed yourself, it is quite difficult to put these things into words.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: staxomega on August 01, 2022, 08:53:42 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 30, 2022, 09:02:25 AM
You are correct, but also in your implication that it takes some effort to recognize it and the piece will probably even at third listen give the impression of a somewhat rhapsodic change between the fast and slow sections.
Op.110 even has an easily recognizable sonata form first movement, and so does the finale of 101, incl. repeat. It's not simply a matter of form, I should have tried better to express what I meant. Nevertheless, I think these three are a bit similar overall to the two "fantasy sonatas" op.27 (whereas op.106 and 111 almost seem stress the "regularity" of form) with uncommonly lyrical first movements and uncommon sequence of movements overall and demand a more flexible/expressive style. Gulda can be straightforward to a fault, so I understand that people do not appreciate this approach in these sonatas whereas I think the "straightness" or "objectivity" has a lot of merit in the other two late sonatas.

Regarding Hammerklavier and op. 111 I'm not so sure I see sticking to a certain number of movements or form to have to solely box it into a "classicist" style. Both of these were used well into the romantic era. Mahler also utilizes sonata form but not in overly obvious ways. I'm considering what is written as well, and these two sonatas are far different from other classical sonatas that came before them.

In the early/mid 2000s there was a backlash for pianists from Asia that "sound the same" this is basically how I view Gulda in the late sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on August 02, 2022, 12:57:11 AM
I am certainly not taking # of movements as a criterium here because there are many 2 movement sonatas by Haydn and earlier Beethoven, in fact op.106 is the first sonata in the typical 4 movements since op.28 (31/3 has 4 movements but no slow movement, 101 has. Like Mahler can use classical form in a rather loose or in a rather strict (like symphony #6, first movement, even with repeat) fashion, so can Beethoven. If you don't perceive such differences between the respective first movements of op.109 or 101 and 106 or 111, I probably cannot say anything to help. Again, an external indication, but probably not accidental that Beethoven writes double bar expo repeats only in these most classicists movements (106,i, 111,i and 101, finale).
Of course, it is still another question if this could or should impact the interpretation and how. I think that the "more strict" movements lend themselves to a more straightforward, less flexible interpretation compared to the more "poetic"/"fantastic" movements.

Gulda is a bit like Toscanini or Leibowitz in the symphonies, fast and straightforward with comparably little flexibility or "highlighting" of contrasts (although as I probably wrote before, I was often surprised that he quite closely follows dynamics, articulations etc. in the score, unlike e.g. Gould who can be very cavalier). The "whole sweep" takes precedence over details, though, and I also think that this does not work equally well everywhere.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2022, 12:59:07 PM
After purchasing Martin Roscoe's cycle, I updated my tracking spreadsheet to come up with an up-to-date set of entirely inane statistics.  Attached is a listing of all complete cycles I am aware of grouped into some fun categories.  First is country of birth for each pianist, second is whether it is a full cycle (eg, Gilels is not a true complete cycle), third is whether I possess a copy, and finally if the cycle was recorded by a woman.  Twenty-one women have recorded twenty-two cycles, figures that surely must go up.  I have some ideas of women I'd like to see record the cycle for 2028, starting with Ragna Schirmer and YES.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: lordlance on September 25, 2022, 12:52:11 PM
Quote from: André on July 24, 2022, 12:27:27 PM
I've finished listening to the Claude Frank cycle. It's musical, sturdy and sometimes probing, but not really illuminating. One feature I like in this cycle is the way each disc features sonatas from different periods, sort of a single disc recital concept. Frank's approach reminds me of Anton Kuerti's, although the latter is more systematic in his brusque, irascible conception of Beethoven. The sound is okay.

Commencing Michael Korstick's cycle. Disc 1 down, with the works presented chronologically this time (the 3 opus 2 sonatas). I find the playing very solid and the sound is much more present. Korstick too adheres to a tensile, volatile view of the music. The slow movement of sonata 2 was a real highlight.

Korstick's playing is the most 'manic' of all Beethoven performances I've heard - maybe a little *too* harsh. Any other players that play with a similar intensity as Korstick?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 25, 2022, 07:11:44 PM
I can't directly answer your question but I absolutely love Korstick in the "seven" concertos on a recent CPO release. His left hand is powerful and vigorous and rings clearer than anyone else. But in the concertos at least, his overall intensity is matched by Oliver Schnyder. I don't think Oli has recorded any sonatas yet.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on September 26, 2022, 06:58:32 AM
I kept op.106 with Korstick because of its extremes/excentricities but I didn't care very much about the two or so other discs I heard (Diabellis and another one, I think). I hear more harshness than intensity. The Kovacevich/EMI is a bit similar but in that case it seems also the fault of the recorded sound. Another pianist who is loud, powerful, fast and straightforward is Buchbinder (although I have not kept track of his two or three complete or partial cycles). NB these comments are only about the sonatas, not concertos. In my experience the typical "problem" with the concertos is that almost no conductor goes to the "extremes" as e.g. Korstick in the sonatas or Scherchen or Chailly in the symphonies.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 26, 2022, 08:45:28 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2022, 07:11:44 PM
I can't directly answer your question but I absolutely love Korstick in the "seven" concertos on a recent CPO release. His left hand is powerful and vigorous and rings clearer than anyone else. But in the concertos at least, his overall intensity is matched by Oliver Schnyder. I don't think Oli has recorded any sonatas yet.
I hadn't heard of the other ones before...just knew about 1-5.  Interesting to read about them.  How do you like the "new" ones Brian?

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 26, 2022, 09:22:03 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 26, 2022, 08:45:28 AM
I hadn't heard of the other ones before...just knew about 1-5.  Interesting to read about them.  How do you like the "new" ones Brian?

PD
One of them is the violin concerto in Beethoven's own arrangement, one is a very early sketch ("number zero"), and then one is about 15 minutes of a planned concerto which he began after No. 5, so it would have been 6. He got most of the way through the first movement before abandoning the piece, so Korstick commissioned a completion of that movement. I've listened twice and feel the same way I feel about Schubert's Tenth - very nice and enjoyable, not super memorable melodies, and lower dramatic stakes than the last completed work. Will definitely return to it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 26, 2022, 09:25:05 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2022, 09:22:03 AM
One of them is the violin concerto in Beethoven's own arrangement, one is a very early sketch ("number zero"), and then one is about 15 minutes of a planned concerto which he began after No. 5, so it would have been 6. He got most of the way through the first movement before abandoning the piece, so Korstick commissioned a completion of that movement. I've listened twice and feel the same way I feel about Schubert's Tenth - very nice and enjoyable, not super memorable melodies, and lower dramatic stakes than the last completed work. Will definitely return to it.
Thanks for the further info.  I would think that the violin one would be the most interesting one to listen to.

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 26, 2022, 09:31:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2022, 09:22:03 AMI've listened twice and feel the same way I feel about Schubert's Tenth - very nice and enjoyable, not super memorable melodies, and lower dramatic stakes than the last completed work.

Have you ever listened to Berio's completion/restoration of Schubert's Tenth?

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,31.msg709112.html#msg709112
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kapsweiss2021 on September 26, 2022, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2022, 12:59:07 PM
After purchasing Martin Roscoe's cycle, I updated my tracking spreadsheet to come up with an up-to-date set of entirely inane statistics.  Attached is a listing of all complete cycles I am aware of grouped into some fun categories.  First is country of birth for each pianist, second is whether it is a full cycle (eg, Gilels is not a true complete cycle), third is whether I possess a copy, and finally if the cycle was recorded by a woman.  Twenty-one women have recorded twenty-two cycles, figures that surely must go up.  I have some ideas of women I'd like to see record the cycle for 2028, starting with Ragna Schirmer and YES.

Todd, are you going to review Martin Roscoe's cycle? I am very interested in it. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 27, 2022, 04:42:51 AM
Quote from: kapsweiss2021 on September 26, 2022, 10:56:36 PM
Todd, are you going to review Martin Roscoe's cycle? I am very interested in it. Thanks in advance.

I plan on it.  It typically takes several weeks to listen to a cycle and digest it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Oldnslow on September 27, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
Just re-listened to Paul Badura Skoda's fortepiano cycle. Just fantastic. I may be wrong but I think this is the only complete cycle recorded on original, not replica, fortepianos.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 04, 2022, 04:17:01 PM
Quote from: George on July 23, 2022, 07:38:27 AMHi Jens,

I have been revisiting a few of my Beethoven sets that I had yet to evaluate and compare with some of my other sets and since this is partially due to your post, I wanted to reply here.

Agreed again! I think the mono Kempff is a clear and consistent improvement over the stereo set. I think Kempff excels in 18 of the 32 in the mono and only 4 of the 32 in the stereo. And thankfully, the mono DG sound for Kempff is a lot better than the mono Decca sound for Backhaus.   

That was interesting to read. Always good to realize one isn't operating in an opinionated vacuum. :-) Cheers,
Jens
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 30, 2023, 09:06:30 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51UbQllcBHL._UX425_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)

Finally gave this a whirl.  The one thing that this recording does better than the 70s recording is piano sound.  There's a more appealing tone and more body.  Pollini obviously digs the music, as evidenced by his vocalizing.  He does not really present these in a transcendent or deep manner.  Instead, they are more straightforward and uncompromising.  This pays the biggest dividends in the tense and tetchy Adagio to 106.  His tempi are pretty snappy throughout, often leading to an agitated sound.  But he also cannot play with the utter precision and control of his younger days.  The swift 9'31" opener to 106 has energy and forward drive, but it lacks the sublime execution of pianists like Korstick or Goodyear.  This is better than I anticipated, but it does not match memories of his earlier recordings, and better renditions are available.  I will probably A/B this and his earlier recordings at some point. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 06, 2023, 03:53:44 PM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ac/hi/v4anma4xwhiac_600.jpg)

Looks like Saleem Ashkar's cycle got released in January and escaped my notice.  Now I must hunt down a copy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 07, 2023, 08:30:08 AM
Spotify has it if you can't find a physical copy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 07, 2023, 08:52:16 AM
Quote from: Holden on July 07, 2023, 08:30:08 AMSpotify has it if you can't find a physical copy.

Amazon and Qobuz do as well.  I want a physical or download copy, though.  This is an LvB sonata cycle - and a very good one for the first four volumes - so streaming will ultimately not satisfy. I may have to relent, though . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 07, 2023, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2023, 08:52:16 AMAmazon and Qobuz do as well.  I want a physical or download copy, though.  This is an LvB sonata cycle - and a very good one for the first four volumes - so streaming will ultimately not satisfy. I may have to relent, though . . .

I quite liked what I heard but won't comment further than that as I only sampled and didn't listen to a whole sonata at any stage.

Presto Music has the complete set. Couldn't find it on Amazon
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 07, 2023, 03:06:09 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 07, 2023, 01:50:29 PMPresto Music has the complete set.

For streaming or purchase?  When I search for Ashkar, I see only four titles.

The Amazon (US) streaming link is: https://www.amazon.com/music/player/albums/B0BS8VDZ9R
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 07, 2023, 04:30:28 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2023, 03:06:09 PMFor streaming or purchase?  When I search for Ashkar, I see only four titles.

The Amazon (US) streaming link is: https://www.amazon.com/music/player/albums/B0BS8VDZ9R

This page has the complete set at the very bottom but it's a digital download. No hard copy it seems

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=saleem%20ashkar
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 07, 2023, 04:40:21 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 07, 2023, 04:30:28 PMhttps://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=saleem%20ashkar

Alas, the sonata set is not visible in the US.  Volumes 5 & 6 separately would also provide the missing sonatas, but I can't find both of those, either. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mateus on July 12, 2023, 12:04:25 AM
If you are looking for physical copies, I believe you can find volumes 5 and 6 on Amazon here:
Volume 5 - https://www.amazon.com/Sonatas-11-15-16-22/dp/B09K6SQP1J/
Volume 6 - https://www.amazon.com/Sonatas-4-9-18-25/dp/B0BSS96H76/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 12, 2023, 04:59:27 AM
Quote from: Mateus on July 12, 2023, 12:04:25 AMIf you are looking for physical copies, I believe you can find volumes 5 and 6 on Amazon here:
Volume 5 - https://www.amazon.com/Sonatas-11-15-16-22/dp/B09K6SQP1J/
Volume 6 - https://www.amazon.com/Sonatas-4-9-18-25/dp/B0BSS96H76/

Thanks for the tip.  I ordered and will see if I receive the discs.  MovieMars does not show the recordings on their own site, so I have doubts. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 12, 2023, 11:14:40 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 12, 2023, 04:59:27 AMThanks for the tip.  I ordered and will see if I receive the discs.  MovieMars does not show the recordings on their own site, so I have doubts.

MovieMars is certainly an inefficient organization. I ordered something on Amazon marketplace from "innersleeves" and I saw in a buried page that it is moviemars. They generated a tracking number a week ago and the courier still doesn't report receiving the package.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 15, 2023, 11:21:25 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2023, 04:40:21 PMAlas, the sonata set is not visible in the US.  Volumes 5 & 6 separately would also provide the missing sonatas, but I can't find both of those, either. 

Thank you for bringing Salem Ashkar to attention, not sure I heard about him before. I listened to a few sonatas from the cycle, really interesting.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 16, 2023, 06:57:02 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 12, 2023, 11:14:40 AMMovieMars is certainly an inefficient organization. I ordered something on Amazon marketplace from "innersleeves" and I saw in a buried page that it is moviemars. They generated a tracking number a week ago and the courier still doesn't report receiving the package.

The blame may go to DHL. I received the package while DHL tracking still says they are waiting to receive the package from the shipper.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: lordlance on July 18, 2023, 10:58:39 PM
A muscular and fiery performance of the 28th live from 1965 just like I like it!

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yh6ExmzulP4/YIeCbF8be8I/AAAAAAABFdM/307ag69a36kz5soPQ1lYIyPqWGlRRSQuACLcBGAsYHQ/s2288/Gilels.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 20, 2023, 03:33:52 AM
Quote from: lordlance on July 18, 2023, 10:58:39 PMA muscular and fiery performance of the 28th live from 1965 just like I like it!

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yh6ExmzulP4/YIeCbF8be8I/AAAAAAABFdM/307ag69a36kz5soPQ1lYIyPqWGlRRSQuACLcBGAsYHQ/s2288/Gilels.jpg)
I don't know that particular performance, but I do enjoy his recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas.  I have this set on DG:

(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/129/129436/195/beethoven-the-piano-sonatas-0028947763602.jpg)

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 20, 2023, 04:49:14 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 20, 2023, 03:33:52 AMI don't know that particular performance, but I do enjoy his recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas.  I have this set on DG:

(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/129/129436/195/beethoven-the-piano-sonatas-0028947763602.jpg)

PD

Some of the Gilels recordings from the Melodiya series are awesome. But the horrendous Soviet sound quality... I don't know what was wrong with the engineers' ears, considering also that almost all recording equipment after the war was "trophy", i.e. stolen in Germany. When I listen to old Soviet recordings, I can't help feeling that the sound is over-dried and filled with some dust or sand.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 20, 2023, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 20, 2023, 04:49:14 AMSome of the Gilels recordings from the Melodiya series are awesome. But the horrendous Soviet sound quality... I don't know what was wrong with the engineers' ears, considering also that almost all recording equipment after the war was "trophy", i.e. stolen in Germany. When I listen to old Soviet recordings, I can't help feeling that the sound is over-dried and filled with some dust or sand.

Yes, those Melodiya records can be rather rough listening--particularly the early ones.  I have a few sets--like one of Chaliapin and another of Prokofiev--but those are also quite early.  I bought them more out of historical interest but don't often play them.  If there's a Gilels thread, I'd love to hear what some of your favorite Melodiya ones are there.

PD

p.s.  I do also (off the top of my head) have some of Rostropovich's recordings on that label; however, again, the sound is "rough".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 20, 2023, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 20, 2023, 06:45:12 AMYes, those Melodiya records can be rather rough listening--particularly the early ones.  I have a few sets--like one of Chaliapin and another of Prokofiev--but those are also quite early.  I bought them more out of historical interest but don't often play them.  If there's a Gilels thread, I'd love to hear what some of your favorite Melodiya ones are there.

PD

p.s.  I do also (off the top of my head) have some of Rostropovich's recordings on that label; however, again, the sound is "rough".

Shortly before the collapse of the USSR, so-called "licensed" records began to appear. For example, Gilels' recordings of Beethoven's unfinished set of sonatas on the DG were issued in USSR by Melodiya on separate LPs. With different covers than in the original. Still they sounded incomparably better in comparison with regular Melodiya output. In fact, they sounded terrific! I never had DG LPs with this recordings to compare, know DG set from CDs and stream.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: lordlance on July 21, 2023, 12:45:35 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 20, 2023, 07:37:55 AMShortly before the collapse of the USSR, so-called "licensed" records began to appear. For example, Gilels' recordings of Beethoven's unfinished set of sonatas on the DG were issued in USSR by Melodiya on separate LPs. With different covers than in the original. Still they sounded incomparably better in comparison with regular Melodiya output. In fact, they sounded terrific! I never had DG LPs with this recordings to compare, know DG set from CDs and stream.
Yes because they were recorded by DG. I am not sure why Russian engineers were so bad at their jobs. Reminds me of how Horenstein's stuff recorded in the 60s sounds like they were recorded in the early 40s somehow. No clue how he got that bad of a sound this late in the game (relatively)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 30, 2023, 11:15:46 AM
After finishing up Saleem Ashkar's cycle, it was time to refresh the most scientifically valid, objective ranking system yet devised.  I noticed also that I had neglected to add Martin Roscoe to the rankings before.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-21 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Irina Mejoueva (Bijin)
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi


Second Tier - Remainder (in alphabetical order)
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Michael Levinas
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Younwha Lee

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Aquiles Delle Vigne
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Boris Giltburg
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira
Igor Levit
Irina Mejoueva
Jingge Yan
John O'Conor
Jonathan Biss
Konstantin Scherbakov
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Bilson, et al (Beghin is second tier)
Malcolm Binns
Martin Roscoe
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Muriel Chemin
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Saleem Abboud Ashkar
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Walter Gieseking (EMI/Tahra hybrid)
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Angela Hewitt
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Daniel Barenboim (DG, 2020)
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Konstantin Lifschitz
Llŷr Williams
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch
Martino Tirimo   
Melodie Zhao
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Robert Benz
Robert Taub
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Yukio Yokoyama


Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland


Eighth Circle of Hell
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 30, 2023, 11:26:54 AM
I decided now was as good a time as any to revisit my comprehensive list of all the LvB sonata cycles I know about, whether truly complete or intended to be complete.  My list had a couple duplicates in it previously.  I count 133 existing complete or intended to be complete cycles.  Of those 133 cycles, 130 have been made available for purchase by consumers.  I own 124 of the cycles.  It's also worth noting the 20 women have recorded 21 cycles.  Surely more of those are needed.  I am aware of nine ongoing complete cycles, though they may not all be completed and/or made available.  I hope they are, and soon.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on July 30, 2023, 12:03:55 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2023, 11:26:54 AMI decided now was as good a time as any to revisit my comprehensive list of all the LvB sonata cycles I know about, whether truly complete or intended to be complete.  My list had a couple duplicates in it previously.  I count 133 existing complete or intended to be complete cycles.  Of those 133 cycles, 130 have been made available for purchase by consumers.  I own 124 of the cycles.  It's also worth noting the 20 women have recorded 21 cycles.  Surely more of those are needed.  I am aware of nine ongoing complete cycles, though they may not all be completed and/or made available.  I hope they are, and soon.



Who are the three pianists whose sets have not been "made available for purchase by consumers"?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 30, 2023, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: JBS on July 30, 2023, 12:03:55 PMWho are the three pianists whose sets have not been "made available for purchase by consumers"?

It's actually four: Tamami Honma, Hiroaki Ooi, Valentina Lisitsa, and Robert Silverman.  The last three have been partially released.  Honma's is in the can and has been for years now.  Silverman released most of his second cycle on AudioHigh, but withheld some of the sonatas. I am uncertain as to the status of Georg Friedrich Schenck's potential cycle, so there may be five.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 30, 2023, 01:01:24 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2023, 11:15:46 AMAfter finishing up Saleem Ashkar's cycle, it was time to refresh the most scientifically valid, objective ranking system yet devised.  I noticed also that I had neglected to add Martin Roscoe to the rankings before.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]

...................................

Hi Todd - thanks for the update - I've been considering Eric Heidsieck for a while in these works (own the stereo Kempff, so need to do some auditioning of both) - but curious about the difference in the two EMI boxes below, assume the first one is a 'newer' re-mastering (or just a different box)?  Any comments from you and of course others would be appreciated.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61j9XmuSJTL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/410ZXFGY5PL.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 30, 2023, 01:53:02 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 30, 2023, 01:01:24 PMbut curious about the difference in the two EMI boxes below, assume the first one is a 'newer' re-mastering (or just a different box)?

I believe it's just a repackaging.  I can't recall if the complete Heidsieck edition has new remasterings.  Go for the cheapest set you can find.  Any sonic differences between remasterings will be minimal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 30, 2023, 01:57:59 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2023, 01:53:02 PMI believe it's just a repackaging.  I can't recall if the complete Heidsieck edition has new remasterings.  Go for the cheapest set you can find.  Any sonic differences between remasterings will be minimal.

Thanks Todd - I'll look around for a decent price!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on July 30, 2023, 02:57:19 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2023, 01:53:02 PMI believe it's just a repackaging.  I can't recall if the complete Heidsieck edition has new remasterings.  Go for the cheapest set you can find.  Any sonic differences between remasterings will be minimal.

@SonicMan46
The complete Heidsieck uses the 1995 remasterings. OTOH it has some excellent Mozart PCs, some of the best Faure around, and several other high quality recordings, so you might want to check into it before actually pulling the trigger.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 30, 2023, 03:31:03 PM
Quote from: JBS on July 30, 2023, 02:57:19 PMOTOH it has some excellent Mozart PCs

It's a pity Warner did not use the Toshiba remasterings of the piano concertos.  The improvement over the remasterings used is noticeable, though nothing sufficient to detract from performance quality. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 30, 2023, 09:30:02 PM

Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2023, 11:15:46 AMTop Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



My imaginary top tier  is somewhat similar. I have a complicated relationship with Richter, and little familiarity with the Heidsieck and Lucchesini. Which Heidsieck set you recommend? Qobuz has Erato (Warner). Gilels' set isn't complete, is it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 31, 2023, 12:29:15 AM
Gilels died before completing the DG set and all his earlier or live recordings only double a subset of the sonatas. The most serious omission is op.111, also missing are op.2/1, 14/1, 54 and 78. It's very good but often a bit slow and heavy.

I am afraid I never really got the special appeal of Heidsieck's Beethoven although I don't remember much except a few oddities.
IIRC 2 years ago I listened to a lot of Beethoven sonatas over summer and appreciated the live Lucchesini more than I had before but I don't recall much about the Heidsieck, although I must have listened to at least some of them at that time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2023, 12:46:17 AM
The thing that surprises me most about @Todd 's list, is that he actually managed to listen to Ciani. For me it's unlistenable - not because of the performances but because of the sound.

Nikolayeva is an interesting one to think about. I just wonder whether it's all equally disappointing or whether there are special things hidden away in there. Her Diabelli Variations, which I think are from the same time roughly, are rather fine.

I've not heard the Goode sonatas recordings, but I have heard him play the Diabelli Variations in concert and I can say in all confidence that it was bloody awful. So I'm not surprised it doesn't do too well in the tier table.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 12:50:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 31, 2023, 12:29:15 AMGilels died before completing the DG set and all his earlier or live recordings only double a subset of the sonatas. The most serious omission is op.111, also missing are op.2/1, 14/1, 54 and 78. It's very good but often a bit slow and heavy.

I am afraid I never really got the special appeal of Heidsieck's Beethoven although I don't remember much except a few oddities.
IIRC 2 years ago I listened to a lot of Beethoven sonatas over summer and appreciated the live Lucchesini more than I had before but I don't recall much about the Heidsieck, although I must have listened to at least some of them at that time.

It seems that the fact that Gilels did not complete his set is well known. It just seemed that Todd knows something that is unknown to others 8) 

I'm listening to Heidsieck now, so far it's not catching on. But, that's quite normal, different listeners have their preferences and their reasons for not being excited.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2023, 12:46:17 AMThe thing that surprises me most about @Todd 's list, is that he actually managed to listen to Ciani. For me it's unlistenable - not because of the performances but because of the sound. [..]


Therein lies the ultimate mastery of the great listener. To ignore the external, to immerse oneself in the essence  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 31, 2023, 04:07:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2023, 12:46:17 AMThe thing that surprises me most about @Todd 's list, is that he actually managed to listen to Ciani. For me it's unlistenable - not because of the performances but because of the sound.

The Ciani cycle is, by far, the worst sounding cycle in existence, and sometimes it sounds worse than poorly transferred acoustic recordings.  For me the goal was to hear it, though.  Better examples of Ciani's playing are to be found elsewhere.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2023, 07:35:04 AM
From a post recently here, I am considering adding Eric Heidsieck to my Beethoven sonata collection; decided to listen to Hurwitz's YouTube video on the topic (below) - he like's Todd's top choices too, i.e. Fischer, Gulda & Kempff (either mono or stereo) but at the end starts pushing Igor Levit as a 'new' top choice (in part based on his colleague Jed Distler's review HERE (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/igor-levits-significant-and-stimulating-beethoven-cycle/)) - SO, decided to sample Levit on Spotify - enjoyable - Todd's ranking of him is 'third tier' - would be curious of his reasoning (probably has a thorough post that I must have missed, sorry) - and does anyone else like Levit or did the reviewers go 'overboard'?  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71EHqg9w8dL._SL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2023, 07:47:47 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 31, 2023, 04:07:54 AMThe Ciani cycle is, by far, the worst sounding cycle in existence, and sometimes it sounds worse than poorly transferred acoustic recordings.  For me the goal was to hear it, though.  Better examples of Ciani's playing are to be found elsewhere.

(At least) one of 'em is in listenable sound, op 111, I don't know why. And I'm not going to comment on which tier to put it in!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 07:49:16 AM
Dave I'm not Todd and I also really like Levit (in fact I almost bought it after listening to the whole set).  But I have to say that A. Fischer, Kempff and Gulda have so much more character.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 31, 2023, 07:57:04 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2023, 07:35:04 AMwould be curious of his reasoning (probably has a thorough post that I must have missed, sorry)

Given that Levit started with the late sonatas and then returned to do the rest later, I never did a detailed review.  Like Ashkar and so many others, Levit plays well - my memory is that his playing is quite excellent in terms of execution, if not to, say, Kikuchi level - but his interpretations didn't really offer anything especially distinctive.  I remember when the late sonatas came out, they were lauded for depth or insight, or something along those lines, it's just that I didn't hear it.  It's a perfectly fine contemporary cycle (ie, completed this century), it's just that better are available - Lucchesini, Pienaar, Mejoueva II, Say, FFG, Sohn, Kikuchi, Kosuge, Takacs.  I don't know pricing of any of the sets now, or how many can be streamed. 


Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 31, 2023, 07:52:36 AMI'm not Todd either, only in my daydreams, but my favorite set, Kuerti, is fourth tier for Todd. Just saying that there are different strokes for different folks. 8)

Indeed. And Kuerti is a unique case.  The only recordings of his I don't really like are in his complete LvB cycle.  His other solo LvB is better, and his LvB and Brahms concertos rate with the best.  I heard him play a couple LvB sonatas and the Diabellis (the latter after a twenty minute micro-master class) in recital, and it was qualitatively out of this world.  His 31/1 from his cycle still stands out as one of the very greatest ever.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2023, 07:58:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 07:49:16 AMDave I'm not Todd and I also really like Levit (in fact I almost bought it after listening to the whole set).  But I have to say that A. Fischer, Kempff and Gulda have so much more character.


Hi David - still listening to Levit on Spotify, and already own the other three above, so I could easily stop now and not add anymore to my collection after your thoughts - thanks.  Also, I do have two PI boxes (always want MI & PI in this era -  :D ), i.e. Brautigam & Paul B-S, not sure that I need both of those?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 31, 2023, 07:59:19 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2023, 07:58:03 AMAlso, I do have two PI boxes (always want MI & PI in this era -  :D ), i.e. Brautigam & Paul B-S, not sure that I need both of those?

You do not.  PBS is exactly five orders of magnitude better than Brautigam. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2023, 08:04:24 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 31, 2023, 07:59:19 AMYou do not.  PBS is exactly five orders of magnitude better than Brautigam.

LOL  ;D  - guess that I have to do some comparative re-listening to my PI boxes - has been a while!  Dave :)

P.S. BTW, Hurwitz in the video I posted seems to adore Brautigam's performances; but does not even mention Paul?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on July 31, 2023, 08:07:26 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2023, 08:04:24 AMP.S. BTW, Hurwitz in the video I posted seems to adore Brautigam's performances; but does not even mention Paul?

I watch Hurwitz for the shtick, not the content.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 08:09:35 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2023, 07:35:04 AMFrom a post recently here, I am considering adding Eric Heidsieck to my Beethoven sonata collection; decided to listen to Hurwitz's YouTube video on the topic (below) - he like's Todd's top choices too, i.e. Fischer, Gulda & Kempff (either mono or stereo) but at the end starts pushing Igor Levit as a 'new' top choice (in part based on his colleague Jed Distler's review HERE (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/igor-levits-significant-and-stimulating-beethoven-cycle/)) - SO, decided to sample Levit on Spotify - enjoyable - Todd's ranking of him is 'third tier' - would be curious of his reasoning (probably has a thorough post that I must have missed, sorry) - and does anyone else like Levit or did the reviewers go 'overboard'?  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71EHqg9w8dL._SL1500_.jpg)


There was a hope a few years ago that Levit would become a significant pianist, but it hasn't worked out. His recent programme albums are too pretentious and the Beethoven set is rather boring.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2023, 08:28:47 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 08:09:35 AMThere was a hope a few years ago that Levit would become a significant pianist, but it hasn't worked out. His recent programme albums are too pretentious and the Beethoven set is rather boring.

I saw Levit's Beethoven cycle in concert. The crowd loved it, I was with a friend who's an advanced full time piano student here and he thought it was the bee's knees. Me - the thing I liked most were rare moments when he became less heavy and more impish.

I've also seen him once in a chamber music concert with Schubert trios, I couldn't hear anything interesting about the performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 09:14:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2023, 07:47:47 AM(At least) one of 'em is in listenable sound, op 111, I don't know why. And I'm not going to comment on which tier to put it in!

Started listening to Ciani's cycle in Qobuz. The immediate impression of the sound quality was terrible, but then, after about ten or fifteen minutes I caught myself thinking that it was possible to listen. I adapted, or something. Maybe I'll try it again later.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 12:47:45 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 08:09:35 AMThere was a hope a few years ago that Levit would become a significant pianist, but it hasn't worked out. His recent programme albums are too pretentious and the Beethoven set is rather boring.

Wait a minute!?  Have Todd and AS just agreed on something!? ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on July 31, 2023, 01:12:47 PM
I own a number of LvB cycles and have heard (thanks to the wonderful world of streaming) many others. Of Todd's Holy Tetrarchy I heartily agree with Fischer and to the same extent, Kempff and this is supported in that I own both of those cycles. I have not heard the complete Backhaus and maybe I should remedy this fact.

I also bought, based on rave reviews, the Gulda Amadeo and quite simply just can't get fully into it despite a number of attempts. The early sonatas sound very good but the adagio of Op 2/3 gives hints of what's to come. It doesn't get a chance to breathe and right through to Op 13 there are the odd movements which are the same. From Op 14 right through to the end there are so many moments where I am thinking "For Gods sake slow down!!!" Yes, there are many great moments in this cycle but the over speedy approach in places just doesn't work for me.

That said, I am very happy with his first mono cycle on Orfeo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on July 31, 2023, 01:25:00 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2023, 11:15:46 AMAfter finishing up Saleem Ashkar's cycle, it was time to refresh the most scientifically valid, objective ranking system yet devised.  I noticed also that I had neglected to add Martin Roscoe to the rankings before.


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]



Third Tier (in alphabetical order)

Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)



"Wow, Bob, just WOW!"   8)


I am pleased to see that we agree on the two Wilhelm's, especially my #1 favorite, Wilhelm Backhaus.  I heard his performance of the Opus 111 c. 60 years ago and followed it with the score.

I thought that his performance (on the London label) was glorious: it evoked the spirituality in the work as described by Thomas Mann in his novel Doctor Faustus.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on July 31, 2023, 04:04:50 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 31, 2023, 01:12:47 PMI also bought, based on rave reviews, the Gulda Amadeo and quite simply just can't get fully into it despite a number of attempts. The early sonatas sound very good but the adagio of Op 2/3 gives hints of what's to come. It doesn't get a chance to breathe and right through to Op 13 there are the odd movements which are the same. From Op 14 right through to the end there are so many moments where I am thinking "For Gods sake slow down!!!" Yes, there are many great moments in this cycle but the over speedy approach in places just doesn't work for me.

I agree completely with this. Using Todds's ranking system I would put it in the third tier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 04:20:20 PM
I think I need to listen to Backhaus (never have).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on July 31, 2023, 05:08:42 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 04:20:20 PMI think I need to listen to Backhaus (never have).


Well worth your time!   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on July 31, 2023, 06:04:39 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 08:09:35 AMThere was a hope a few years ago that Levit would become a significant pianist, but it hasn't worked out. His recent programme albums are too pretentious and the Beethoven set is rather boring.

Those program albums work well for me. I do agree with Todd's view that his LvB is perfectly fine but not outstanding. Of the 21st century pianists he listed, I only have Pienaar and Guy. Pienaar strikes me as also perfectly fine but not outstanding, but Guy is indeed les genoux d'abeille.

I have enough sets of the sonatas that I ought to work out a list similar to Todd's (but much shorter, of course*). I'm not sure who would be top tier. I do know who would be at the bottom of the list: Annie Fischer.

*working off Todd's list, it seems I have 23 complete cycles, plus Serkin, Richter, and Gilels.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 31, 2023, 11:05:00 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 12:47:45 PMWait a minute!?  Have Todd and AS just agreed on something!? ;D

What Todd writes about music is always interesting and I have no trouble learning from it.

As for agreeing on the other issues. I won't say about the nature of agreement in the abstract now, maybe another time. Anyway, more often than not Todd writes something that doesn't coincide with what I see. However, he never writes stupid things, and almost never descends into vulgar personal attacks. And for me, it's better to disagree with a clever person than to agree with a moron.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on July 31, 2023, 11:54:22 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 31, 2023, 07:57:04 AMGiven that Levit started with the late sonatas and then returned to do the rest later, I never did a detailed review.  Like Ashkar and so many others, Levit plays well - my memory is that his playing is quite excellent in terms of execution, if not to, say, Kikuchi level - but his interpretations didn't really offer anything especially distinctive.  I remember when the late sonatas came out, they were lauded for depth or insight, or something along those lines, it's just that I didn't hear it.
I got the Levit Late Sonatas when they were new and lauded and while I have not revisited them in years, I tend to agree. Not sure, I think I listened to some of the other sonatas that were later available online (maybe different live concert recordings?) and had a similar impression. Very good, but not super special. (And I now shun Levit because he has been insufferable in the last few years, with many public statements for mainstream leftist political propaganda.)

Whereas Lucchesini mostly had a freshness that might be connected to the live situation or to the pianist's originality that made revisiting them in that summer a few years ago when I listened to lots of Beethoven sonatas very worthwhile.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 01, 2023, 01:50:35 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 31, 2023, 11:54:22 PM[..] (And I now shun Levit because he has been insufferable in the last few years, with many public statements for mainstream leftist political propaganda.) [..]


Again and again we come back to the same question. Does music exist separately from ideology? Or the same question in a different way. Is music used for ideological purposes?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2023, 02:08:56 AM
Well I just listened to Levit's recording of the first movement op 106 - you can hear some of the impish playing which caught my attention in the concerts. I think what he does here is pretty good actually, fresh, I'm not sure if it's original conception but it could be. A sort of good balance between playfulness and weight.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 01, 2023, 03:04:45 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 04:20:20 PMI think I need to listen to Backhaus (never have).
Me too...along with Annie Fischer.

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 01, 2023, 03:37:54 AM
Couple of years ago Presto Classical had Backhaus' complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas mono set download in FLAC for US$ 4.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 01, 2023, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 01, 2023, 03:37:54 AMCouple of years ago Presto Classical had Backhaus' complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas mono set download in FLAC for US$ 4.

Looks like they have at least some of them (showing old Decca covers), but not at that price alas!

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on August 01, 2023, 05:57:16 AM
I'm going to just stream.  I almost never blind buy anymore.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 01, 2023, 06:31:08 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 01, 2023, 05:57:16 AMI'm going to just stream.  I almost never blind buy anymore.
It does seem like it's the safer way to go.

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Florestan on August 01, 2023, 06:36:34 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 01, 2023, 01:50:35 AMAgain and again we come back to the same question. Does music exist separately from ideology? Or the same question in a different way. Is music used for ideological purposes?


A better question is: does ideology influence one's playing style? For instance, Maurizio Pollini is a communist. How does this ideological affiliation reflect in his recordings? Not at all, of course.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 01, 2023, 06:52:34 AM
Regarding Wilhelm Backhaus' mono recordings, I did find them for a decent price on Supraphon's website--for 249 CZK.  If my converter was accurate that is about  equal to $11.50 USD.

And that's presuming that they can sell these files in the US (I didn't try).  It looks like, too, that it includes mp3 files too.

https://www.supraphonline.cz/album/576483-beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-mono-version/flac

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on August 01, 2023, 10:31:51 AM
Thank you everyone, please post about Beethoven piano sonatas here, for the other discussion please post here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,32543.0.html)/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2023, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 31, 2023, 04:20:20 PMI think I need to listen to Backhaus (never have).

The stereo set has remarkably good sound and the playing, IMO, is nearly as good as the mono set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 01, 2023, 11:30:06 AM
Quote from: George on August 01, 2023, 10:58:44 AMThe stereo set has remarkably good sound and the playing, IMO, is nearly as good as the mono set.

Thanks for your thoughts, George.  I'll look into it.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 01, 2023, 12:51:58 PM
Is the Backhaus mono set available via streaming anywhere? There's something on Spotify but it's provenance is not determined and as part of the caption says 'live' it makes me wonder.

I did listen to the stereo set but it didn't really grab me. A main part of the issue is dynamic range and whether this is the mastering or the pianist I don't know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2023, 01:12:31 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 01, 2023, 12:51:58 PMIs the Backhaus mono set available via streaming anywhere? There's something on Spotify but it's provenance is not determined and as part of the caption says 'live' it makes me wonder.

I did listen to the stereo set but it didn't really grab me. A main part of the issue is dynamic range and whether this is the mastering or the pianist I don't know.

I see at least 4 discs of the mono set there, lableled "mono version." It's a very generic cover, with a b/w sketch of Backhaus's head and only the background color differs. Here's an example:

(https://archive.org/download/1-backhaus-bohm-decca-lxt-2553/Backhaus%20B%C3%B6hm%20Decca%20LXT2553%201.jpg)

   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on August 01, 2023, 01:20:56 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 01, 2023, 12:51:58 PMIs the Backhaus mono set available via streaming anywhere? There's something on Spotify but it's provenance is not determined and as part of the caption says 'live' it makes me wonder.

I did listen to the stereo set but it didn't really grab me. A main part of the issue is dynamic range and whether this is the mastering or the pianist I don't know.

Could they be some of the recordings used in this Membran set?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Kod0ckOZL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1lPfE1hWaL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
Quote from: George on August 01, 2023, 01:12:31 PMI see at least 4 discs of the mono set there, lableled "mono version." It's a very generic cover, with a b/w sketch of Backhaus's head and only the background color differs. Here's an example:

(https://archive.org/download/1-backhaus-bohm-decca-lxt-2553/Backhaus%20B%C3%B6hm%20Decca%20LXT2553%201.jpg)

   

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2023, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: JBS on August 01, 2023, 01:20:56 PMCould they be some of the recordings used in this Membran set?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Kod0ckOZL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1lPfE1hWaL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)

I don't know. It would depend on which one Membran chose to pirate. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on August 01, 2023, 01:26:08 PM
Quote from: George on August 01, 2023, 01:12:31 PMI see at least 4 discs of the mono set there, lableled "mono version." It's a very generic cover, with a b/w sketch of Backhaus's head and only the background color differs. Here's an example:

(https://archive.org/download/1-backhaus-bohm-decca-lxt-2553/Backhaus%20B%C3%B6hm%20Decca%20LXT2553%201.jpg)

 


That is what I found on Qobuz.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2023, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 01, 2023, 01:26:08 PMThat is what I found on Qobuz.

They also have the superb-sounding stereo set: https://www.qobuz.com/au-en/album/beethoven-the-piano-sonatas-wilhelm-backhaus/0002894757198

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/98/71/0002894757198_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on August 01, 2023, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: George on August 01, 2023, 01:28:08 PMThey also have the superb-sounding stereo set: https://www.qobuz.com/au-en/album/beethoven-the-piano-sonatas-wilhelm-backhaus/0002894757198

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/98/71/0002894757198_600.jpg)

Ah yes but they also have the hd remasters of that set as well!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2023, 01:33:51 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 01, 2023, 01:28:52 PMAh yes but they also have the hd remasters of that set as well!

Haven't heard the remasters, so I can't recommend them. I have heard many remasters that sounded worse than the original, though. Just sayin.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 01, 2023, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: George on August 01, 2023, 01:33:51 PMI have heard many remasters that sounded worse than the original, though. Just sayin.

Yep.  The Gieseking Edition demonstrates that.

The Decca remasters of Backhaus all sound fine.  The complete Backhaus Edition had a fresh 2019 remastering of everything.  It was fine.  I have the Decca Italy remastering of the mono set as well, and some people swore it was all that.  I did a couple A/Bs with the complete set, and if memory serves the Decca Italy was better.  If I could quantify it, I'd say it's 2-3% better.  Maybe up to 4%.  The 2019 remastering sound very slightly better than the Original Masters set.  Let's call it 2.9%. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 01, 2023, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 01, 2023, 01:51:26 PMYep.  The Gieseking Edition demonstrates that.

The Decca remasters of Backhaus all sound fine.  The complete Backhaus Edition had a fresh 2019 remastering of everything.  It was fine.  I have the Decca Italy remastering of the mono set as well, and some people swore it was all that.  I did a couple A/Bs with the complete set, and if memory serves the Decca Italy was better.  If I could quantify it, I'd say it's 2-3% better.  Maybe up to 4%.  The 2019 remastering sound very slightly better than the Original Masters set.  Let's call it 2.9%. 

For the mono, I have the Japan box. I'm not sure if it's the same mastering as the Italy set.

(https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0402/users/06172caf26ada1dffe98907c671a9522151fadb9/i-img1200x1200-16759071974fqhk916.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 01, 2023, 08:56:29 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 01, 2023, 12:51:58 PMIs the Backhaus mono set available via streaming anywhere? There's something on Spotify but it's provenance is not determined and as part of the caption says 'live' it makes me wonder.

I did listen to the stereo set but it didn't really grab me. A main part of the issue is dynamic range and whether this is the mastering or the pianist I don't know.

Qobuz (UK) has complete set, see screen pic below.

I bought download as well couple of years ago for US$ 4 (yes, four for the whole set of 32 sonatas) from Presto which doesn't have it any more, but maybe some other online store has for a budget price.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 02, 2023, 03:30:34 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 01, 2023, 08:56:29 PMQobuz (UK) has complete set, see screen pic below.

I bought download as well couple of years ago for US$ 4 (yes, four for the whole set of 32 sonatas) from Presto which doesn't have it any more, but maybe some other online store has for a budget price.


I did provide a link to the mono set yesterday (for about $11.50 USD).  It's here:

"Regarding Wilhelm Backhaus' mono recordings, I did find them for a decent price on Supraphon's website--for 249 CZK.  If my converter was accurate that is about  equal to $11.50 USD.

And that's presuming that they can sell these files in the US (I didn't try).  It looks like, too, that it includes mp3 files too.

https://www.supraphonline.cz/album/576483-beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-mono-version/flac

PD"

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Atriod on August 03, 2023, 05:28:16 AM
Quote from: lordlance on July 18, 2023, 10:58:39 PMA muscular and fiery performance of the 28th live from 1965 just like I like it!

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yh6ExmzulP4/YIeCbF8be8I/AAAAAAABFdM/307ag69a36kz5soPQ1lYIyPqWGlRRSQuACLcBGAsYHQ/s2288/Gilels.jpg)

This set has his best Beethoven, much better than the DG.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 03, 2023, 01:29:10 PM
Quote from: Zauberschloss on August 03, 2023, 05:28:16 AMThis set has his best Beethoven, much better than the DG.

Yes, I would agree. The fiery Appassionata live from Moscow 1960 is one great example of the differences between the live and studio Gilels.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Atriod on August 03, 2023, 08:25:33 PM
Quote from: premont on July 31, 2023, 04:04:50 PMI agree completely with this. Using Todds's ranking system I would put it in the third tier.

Feeling generous premont :) Superb in the early sonatas, but objectively from Pathetique onward Gulda Amadeo is bottom tier.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kit on August 04, 2023, 09:24:12 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 01, 2023, 03:37:54 AMCouple of years ago Presto Classical had Backhaus' complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas mono set download in FLAC for US$ 4.

Your example begs for context. Presto Music has a policy of applying different pricing to different releases according to the account holder's country's purchasing power. For instance, as of right this moment, download price of Backhaus 1950-1956 set is $10.75 for some  and $2.25 for a few. It has always been this way since the inception of digital downloads. I have multiple accounts for this purpose, so I can demonstrate:

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 04, 2023, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on August 04, 2023, 09:24:12 AMYour example begs for context. Presto Music has a policy of applying different pricing to different releases according to the account holder's country's purchasing power. For instance, as of right this moment, download price of Backhaus 1950-1956 set is $10.75 for some  and $2.25 for a few. It has always been this way since the inception of digital downloads. I have multiple accounts for this purpose, so I can demonstrate:



Didn't know about that. Just checked, right now Presto has this complete set for $4.25 for Ukraine. I didn't sign in, the country is probably visible anyway. Interestingly, Presto has individual albums from this set for $6.00 each. There you go.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on August 04, 2023, 01:15:54 PM
Quote from: George on August 01, 2023, 01:28:08 PMThey also have the superb-sounding stereo set: https://www.qobuz.com/au-en/album/beethoven-the-piano-sonatas-wilhelm-backhaus/0002894757198

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/98/71/0002894757198_600.jpg)


Yes, the above set (CD's) is what I bought some years ago.

I am glad to learn so many are interested in Wilhelm Backhaus...and in the other pianists who have given us their performances of Beethoven's sonatas!

Such interest is most heartening!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 18, 2023, 02:07:30 AM
I've been playing the Backhaus Mono over the last two weeks via Qobuz, just to see why Todd and others rated it so highly. It's been an interesting journey and there have been a number of revelatory moments. One thing I can say is that I've never heard a cycle like it.

Backhaus was a contemporary of Schnabel but the two are chalk and cheese. I also looked at reviews and discovered this from our Todd

https://rec.music.classical.recordings.narkive.com/JIPn0MUB/todd-reviews-wilhelm-backhaus-decca-mono-early-1950s

Now I haven't checked to see whether that's also what he has posted on this thread but logic would suggest that it is. One thing he emphasised in his post was WBs willingness to make tempo changes which concerned me. Speeding up and slowing down during a movement seemed not to be the way that Beethoven should be approached so I listened with some trepidation.

In general, most of those changes of tempo worked very well (some spectacularly) and in some others not at all.

What stood out was the fresh (to me) ideas that Backhaus had about interpretation, dynamic range and tone colour. He had ideas that I had never contemplated and I loved the way many of them worked.

The down side of the cycle (and Todd hints strongly at it in his review) was the last five sonatas. To me this is some of the deepest and profound piano writing of all time and Backhaus does not capture this. It sounds rather perfunctory in many places and there are hints of what I did not like with the Gulda cycle. Over quick tempos and the music seems to be played on a note by note basis with the phrasing needed missing the mark.

One overall impression that stuck with me. If I'd been told that these were live performances I would have believed it because spontaneity just seemed to imbue so much of this cycle. I've heard many LvB cycles described as a personal statement but this definitely fits that description.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 18, 2023, 08:30:53 AM
Quote from: Holden on August 18, 2023, 02:07:30 AMI've been playing the Backhaus Mono over the last two weeks via Qobuz, just to see why Todd and others rated it so highly. It's been an interesting journey and there have been a number of revelatory moments. One thing I can say is that I've never heard a cycle like it.

Backhaus was a contemporary of Schnabel but the two are chalk and cheese. I also looked at reviews and discovered this from our Todd

https://rec.music.classical.recordings.narkive.com/JIPn0MUB/todd-reviews-wilhelm-backhaus-decca-mono-early-1950s

Now I haven't checked to see whether that's also what he has posted on this thread but logic would suggest that it is. One thing he emphasised in his post was WBs willingness to make tempo changes which concerned me. Speeding up and slowing down during a movement seemed not to be the way that Beethoven should be approached so I listened with some trepidation.

In general, most of those changes of tempo worked very well (some spectacularly) and in some others not at all.

What stood out was the fresh (to me) ideas that Backhaus had about interpretation, dynamic range and tone colour. He had ideas that I had never contemplated and I loved the way many of them worked.

The down side of the cycle (and Todd hints strongly at it in his review) was the last five sonatas. To me this is some of the deepest and profound piano writing of all time and Backhaus does not capture this. It sounds rather perfunctory in many places and there are hints of what I did not like with the Gulda cycle. Over quick tempos and the music seems to be played on a note by note basis with the phrasing needed missing the mark.

One overall impression that stuck with me. If I'd been told that these were live performances I would have believed it because spontaneity just seemed to imbue so much of this cycle. I've heard many LvB cycles described as a personal statement but this definitely fits that description.
I appreciate your thoughtful descriptions of your journey.

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 18, 2023, 12:09:55 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 18, 2023, 02:07:30 AMThe down side of the cycle (and Todd hints strongly at it in his review) was the last five sonatas...

I've heard many LvB cycles described as a personal statement but this definitely fits that description.

The late sonatas are a qualitative step down from earlier sonatas, but they maintain an overall very high standard of performance.  The older, mono Op 111 on APR, while not hugely different, sounds marginally better overall.

Backhaus always strikes me as personal.  And his playing often does sound live.  His 78s are essentially live, of course, and he displays a sense of liver performance energy. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Atriod on August 18, 2023, 04:06:17 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 18, 2023, 02:07:30 AMI've been playing the Backhaus Mono over the last two weeks via Qobuz, just to see why Todd and others rated it so highly. It's been an interesting journey and there have been a number of revelatory moments. One thing I can say is that I've never heard a cycle like it.

Backhaus was a contemporary of Schnabel but the two are chalk and cheese. I also looked at reviews and discovered this from our Todd

https://rec.music.classical.recordings.narkive.com/JIPn0MUB/todd-reviews-wilhelm-backhaus-decca-mono-early-1950s

Now I haven't checked to see whether that's also what he has posted on this thread but logic would suggest that it is. One thing he emphasised in his post was WBs willingness to make tempo changes which concerned me. Speeding up and slowing down during a movement seemed not to be the way that Beethoven should be approached so I listened with some trepidation.

In general, most of those changes of tempo worked very well (some spectacularly) and in some others not at all.

What stood out was the fresh (to me) ideas that Backhaus had about interpretation, dynamic range and tone colour. He had ideas that I had never contemplated and I loved the way many of them worked.

The down side of the cycle (and Todd hints strongly at it in his review) was the last five sonatas. To me this is some of the deepest and profound piano writing of all time and Backhaus does not capture this. It sounds rather perfunctory in many places and there are hints of what I did not like with the Gulda cycle. Over quick tempos and the music seems to be played on a note by note basis with the phrasing needed missing the mark.

One overall impression that stuck with me. If I'd been told that these were live performances I would have believed it because spontaneity just seemed to imbue so much of this cycle. I've heard many LvB cycles described as a personal statement but this definitely fits that description.

I quite like Backhaus in that mono cycle's op. 111. Ernst Levy (composer/pianist/musicologist) was also loose with tempo, I prefer him in the Hammerklavier and late sonatas. Levy would probably make my top 5 for late Beethoven interpreters.

What do you make of Backhaus in the Hammerklavier?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 28, 2023, 07:09:19 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2023, 11:15:46 AMTop Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]

I know Solomon only recorded 18 of them, but I am curious where you'd place him.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on August 28, 2023, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: George on August 28, 2023, 07:09:19 AMI know Solomon only recorded 18 of them, but I am curious where you'd place him.

I've heard only a handful of the sonatas.  I didn't particularly care for them, so I never pursued listening to the rest.  As a result, I can't really assess the overall quality of the recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on August 28, 2023, 07:34:11 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 28, 2023, 07:21:14 AMI've heard only a handful of the sonatas.  I didn't particularly care for them, so I never pursued listening to the rest.  As a result, I can't really assess the overall quality of the recordings.

Thanks, I haven't heard them in awhile. I bought them years ago and plan to give them another shot soon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on August 28, 2023, 12:25:23 PM
Quote from: Zauberschloss on August 18, 2023, 04:06:17 PMI quite like Backhaus in that mono cycle's op. 111. Ernst Levy (composer/pianist/musicologist) was also loose with tempo, I prefer him in the Hammerklavier and late sonatas. Levy would probably make my top 5 for late Beethoven interpreters.

What do you make of Backhaus in the Hammerklavier?

Of the late sonatas this is probably the best. The opening movement comes off well and I liked the slow movement. But then again I've heard much better from the likes of Solomon, Sokolov (a Moscow recording not easily attainable now) and Pollini.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on September 23, 2023, 05:26:44 PM
In listening to some Rachmaninoff from Maurizio Zaccaria I discovered that he has a complete Beethoven cycle, which I don't think was on Todd's list.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNvDDh1b/Screenshot-2023-09-23-at-8-24-14-PM.png)

I'm assuming it is complete since there are 10 volumes.

Sounds pretty good to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 24, 2023, 03:09:58 AM
Quote from: San Antone on September 23, 2023, 05:26:44 PMIn listening to some Rachmaninoff from Maurizio Zaccaria I discovered that he has a complete Beethoven cycle, which I don't think was on Todd's list.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNvDDh1b/Screenshot-2023-09-23-at-8-24-14-PM.png)

I'm assuming it is complete since there are 10 volumes.

Sounds pretty good to me.

If it's not on Todd's list, then scientifically it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kit on September 25, 2023, 12:56:46 AM
Quote from: San Antone on September 23, 2023, 05:26:44 PMIn listening to some Rachmaninoff from Maurizio Zaccaria I discovered that he has a complete Beethoven cycle, which I don't think was on Todd's list.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNvDDh1b/Screenshot-2023-09-23-at-8-24-14-PM.png)

I'm assuming it is complete since there are 10 volumes.

Sounds pretty good to me.

It is complete. As far as I know it was released as 12 installments or 3 volumes of 3 albums each approximately 2 years ago. Including Zaccaria, I think I currently have 133 complete, almost complete (i.e. Gilels) and mixed (i.e. Bilson) cycles in total, and might post the inventory here later on for future reference.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 04:14:52 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 12:56:46 AMIt is complete. As far as I know it was released as 12 installments or 3 volumes of 3 albums each approximately 2 years ago. Including Zaccaria, I think I currently have 133 complete, almost complete (i.e. Gilels) and mixed (i.e. Bilson) cycles in total, and might post the inventory here later on for future reference.

Please do.  I assume you collect both LP and digital cycles.  If you have Riefling or Varinska or Steinberg, may I inquire where you purchased them?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 04:56:44 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 04:38:18 AMRiefling from a friend in Paris

Your friend was very generous to ship LPs from Paris, unless you paid for shipping.


Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 04:38:18 AMSteinberg was some sort of a flea shop in Berlin I believe

I didn't think the Steinberg got international distribution.  I guess someone took it back to Germany and dumped it at a flea market.


Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 04:38:18 AMVarinska should be online order from Japan.

Last I saw, it was available from Tower Japan only, and did not ship outside Japan unless one used White Rabbit or a similar service.  I believe it has been OOP for years now.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 25, 2023, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 12:56:46 AMIncluding Zaccaria, I think I currently have 133 complete, almost complete (i.e. Gilels) and mixed (i.e. Bilson) cycles in total, and might post the inventory here later on for future reference.

This would interest me very much.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 05:30:54 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 05:23:11 AMEvidently your world of imagination differs from the normal and sane people's, which we call 'the reality'.

Please clarify.  Are you asserting that Riefling made it to CD, that Steinberg received international distribution, or that Varinska is not OOP or that it was widely available at non-Tower Japanese vendors within the last decade?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 05:46:23 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 05:41:01 AMListen, I have seen some of your posts. You are obviously a textbook troll and I find it tragic that you have not been moderated for some 24000 posts. But, hey, surprise, some people travel from one country to another and some people have connections (which requires going out and knowing people). I really wish someone stopped you so that at least new people could share their knowledge, post some facts and express their respectful opinions. I'm putting you on my ignore list.

An intriguing response.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ritter on September 25, 2023, 05:48:55 AM
We ask all our esteemed fellow GMGers to please maintain the conversation civil and not resort to personal attacks or snarky derogatory comments. This is a topic that interests many members, and to which some clearly have valuable contributions to make. Thanks!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kit on September 25, 2023, 05:51:31 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 25, 2023, 05:48:55 AMWe ask all our esteemed fellow GMGers to please maintain the conversation civil and not resort to personal attacks or snarky derogatory comments. This is a topic that interests many members, and to which some clearly have valuable contributions to make. Thanks!
Could you be clear?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: ritter on September 25, 2023, 05:53:53 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 05:51:31 AMCould you be clear?
I find it hard to believe that my post requires any clarification...

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kit on September 25, 2023, 05:55:06 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 25, 2023, 05:53:53 AMI find it hard to believe that my post requires any clarification...



Well that explains it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 05:59:25 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 05:43:09 AM54.   Dirk Herten (2019)

There's a new name for me.  I wonder if it's a legitimate cycle, or if it is like Alicja Kot, Giancarlo Andretti, and a few others.  Amazon lists it on Amazon Music, though it cannot currently be streamed or purchased.  That's never a good sign.  A pianist named Dick Herten does have endorsements on LinkedIn, so that may be a good sign.

It's nice to see Kladetzky's name, though that is another of those cycles that has been gone for many more years than it was ever available.  One must be very intrepid to purchase all the volumes in that set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Kit on September 25, 2023, 06:01:07 AM
Quote from: premont on September 25, 2023, 05:05:08 AMThis would interest me very much.

My apologies. I've made a mistake, I won't be sharing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 25, 2023, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 06:01:07 AMMy apologies. I've made a mistake, I won't be sharing.

Why not?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 25, 2023, 07:51:25 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 06:01:07 AMMy apologies. I've made a mistake, I won't be sharing.

There's no need to take offence at Todd. He's just the way he is, like everyone else. You'll get used to him and you'll stop taking it to heart.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 25, 2023, 09:56:31 AM
It is hard to interpret tone on the internet, but even so, I don't understand what went wrong here. As a keen listener but not a huge collector (I probably only have 8-10 cycles - a lot for a "normal" person but not on GMG), I've streamed some Robert Riefling recordings and enjoyed them all. The lost-ish LP Beethoven cycle has become a "white whale" for me. Todd has also posted about his interest in the past.

Nobody asked for filesharing. Nobody even asked for evidence of your possession. We just love Beethoven and we're curious. Maybe better questions are: do you like the Riefling set? How often have you played it? Are the records in good condition?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 25, 2023, 10:31:50 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2023, 09:56:31 AMNobody asked for filesharing. Nobody even asked for evidence of your possession. We just love Beethoven and we're curious.

Precisely. My interest in Brachylophosaurus' list is due to the opportunity it provides to get a better overview of the existing recordings. And of course to hear from him, which ones he in particular worships.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 10:47:10 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2023, 09:56:31 AMWe just love Beethoven and we're curious.

My curiosity is most definitely piqued by the pianist named Dick Herten, which is a name new to me.  Alas, I could not find any information about the pianist on the internet beyond LinkedIn endorsements.  The set does not exist in physical form at any site I checked; it is not streamable on Amazon, which does list it though; it is not on Spotify.  Nothing at all shows up for Dick Herten on YouTube, which is very strange.  The cycle is, however, on Qobuz.  I streamed some short samples.  The playing is reminiscent of Alicja Kot, Giancarlo Andretti, Shisei Hanai, Vladimir Morrone, and Claudio Colombo.  I am down to buy any real complete cycle at a moment's notice.  I will not spend $50 on Dick Herten.  That name, though. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: premont on September 25, 2023, 10:31:50 AMPrecisely. My interest in Brachylophosaurus' list is due to the opportunity it provides to get a better overview of the existing recordings. And of course to hear from him, which ones he in particular worships.

I wanted to perform a full name review against my ongoing list, so I grabbed a copy of the non-copyrighted post before it was deleted. Here's what Brachylophosaurus posted (referring to PBS as PBS II and PBS III is somewhat unusual in 2023):

I have included some rough recording dates and label name if more than one cycle...
Mono:
1.    Artur Schnabel (1932-1935)
2.    Friedrich Gulda I (Orfeo, 1953-1957)
3.    Friedrich Gulda II (Decca, 1950-1958): 11-18, 21-25, 27, 28, 30-32 are stereo
4.    Walter Gieseking: (1949-1950; 4, 5, 7 & 20: 1956) He had performed all 32 on Saarbrücken radio broadcasts but the tapes of No 4, 5, 7, 20 & 22
        didn't survive. The survivors were released on Tahra on 7 CDs but another release on Andromeda which combines 2 volumes of 4 discs and 
      supplements  the missing sonatas from tapes of 1956, except No 22.
5.    Wilhelm Backhaus I (1950-1956)
6.    Wilhelm Kempff I (1951-1956)
7.    Yves Nat (1953-1955): There is a new mastering available by Alexandre Bak - Classical Music Reference Recording

Stereo:
8.    Claudio Arrau I (Philips, 1962-1966)
9.    Claudio Arrau II (Philips, 1984-1990): He passed away before completing the set so No 14 is a 1962 and 29 a 1963 recording from the previous set
10.  Saleem Ashkar (2017-2022)
11.  Vladimir Ashkenazy (1971-1981)
12.  Wilhelm Backhaus II (Decca, 1958-1969): No 29 is a monaural recording from1952
13.  Paul Badura-Skoda II (Gramola, 1969-1970)
14.  Paul Badura-Skoda III: on fortepiano (Auvidis Astree, 1979-1989)
15.  Daniel Barenboim I (EMI, 1966-1969)
16.  Daniel Barenboim II (DG, 1981-1984)
17.  Daniel Barenboim III (Decca, 2005)
18.  Daniel Barenboim IV (DG, 2020)
19.  Jean-Efflam Bavouzet (2008-2016)
20.  Robert Benz (1988-1995)
21.  Malcolm Bilson et al: on fortepiano (1996)
        Malcolm Bilson No 1, 4, 7, 14, 17, 28 & 30;
        Tom Beghin No 2, 8, 25, 27 & 32;
        David Breitman No 3, 15, 24 & 31;
        Ursula Dütschler No 6, 10, 13 & 16;
        Zvi Meniker 11, 18, 19 & 23;
        Bart van Oort 5, 9, 21 & 26;
        Andrew Willis No 12, 20, 22 & 29
22.  Malcolm Binns: on fortepiano (1978-1979)
23.  Idil Biret (1994-2008)
24.  Jonathan Biss (2011-2019)
25.  Alfred Brendel I (VoxBox, 1958-1964)
26.  Alfred Brendel II (Philips, 1970-1977)
27.  Alfred Brendel III (Philips, 1993-1996)
28.  Rita Bouboulidi (2010)
29.  Ronald Brautigam (2003-2008)
30.  Rudolf Buchbinder I (Teldec, 1979-1982)
31.  Rudolf Buchbinder II (RCA Red Seal, 2010-2011)
32.  Rudolf Buchbinder III (DG, 2014)
33.  Muriel Chemin (2017-2021)
34.  Dino Ciani (1970)
35.  Aldo Ciccolini (1995-1999)
36.  Sequeira Costa (1998-2007)
37.  Andre De Groote (1995-1998)
38.  Eduardo del Pueyo (1976-1977)
39.  Aquiles Delle Vigne (2008-2019)
40.  Timothy Ehlen (2009-2014)
41.  Abdel Rahman El Bacha I (Forlane, 1984-1993)
42.  Abdel Rahman El Bacha II (Mirare, 2012-2013)
43.  Annie Fischer (1977-1978)
44.  Sebastian Forster (2009-2012)
45.  Claude Frank (Late 1960s, there is a 1990 remaster)
46.  Emil Gilels (1972-1986): w/o No 1, 9, 22, 24 & 32
47.  Boris Giltburg (2019-2021)
48.  Richard Goode (1986-1993)
49.  Stewart Goodyear (2010-2012)
50.  Maria Grinberg (1964-1967, there is a 2005 remaster on Melodiya)
51.  Friedrich Gulda III (Amadeo, 1968)
52.  Francois Frederic Guy (2009-2012)
53.  Eric Heidsieck (1967-1973)
54.  Dirk Herten (2019)
55.  Angela Hewitt (2005-2020)
56.  Ian Hobson (1993-1997)
57.  Michael Houstoun I (Morrison Trust, 1994-1996)
58.  Michael Houstoun II (Rattle, 2013)
59.  Jeno Jando (1989-1991)
60.  Paavali Jumppanen (2010-2012)
61.  John Kane (2016-2017)
62.  Wilhelm Kempff II (King International Japan, 1961)
63.  Wilhelm Kempff III (DG, 1964-1965)
64.  Yusuke Kikuchi (2010-2011)
65.  Gotthard Kladetzky (1998)
66.  Mari Kodama (2003-2013)
67.  Michael Korstick (1997-2008)
68.  Yu Kosuge (2011-2015)
69.  Stephen Kovacevich (1991-2003)
70.  Anton Kuerti (1974-1975)
71.  Younwha Lee (1994-2007)
72.  Christian Leotta (2005-2012)
73.  Michael Levinas (1984-1991)
74.  Igor Levit (2013-2019)
75.  Paul Lewis (2005-2007)
76.  Konstantin Lifschitz (2017-2019)
77.  John Lill (1975-1981)
78.  HJ Lim (2011): No 19 & 20 deliberately excluded
79.  Seymour Lipkin (2002-2004): also released all 32 sonatas in mp3 format on a single cd with complete sheet music in pdf in 2004
80.  Louie Lortie (1991-2010)
81.  Andrea Lucchesini (2003)
82.  Steven Masi (2012-2017)
83.  Irina Mejoueva I (Wakabayashi Kobo, 2007-2009)
84.  Irina Mejoueva II (Bijin Classical, 2020)
85.  Jean Muller (2007-2009)
86.  Ikuyo Nakamichi (2003-2006)
87.  Tatiana Nikolayeva (1984)
88.  Ichiro Nodaira (1998-2003)
89.  John O'Conor (1985-1993)
90.  Garrick Ohlsson (2006-2009)
91.  Anne Øland (1995-2002)
92.  Gerhard Oppitz (2004-2007)
93.  Kun-Woo Paik (2005-2007)
94.  Alfredo Perl (1992-1996)
95.  Daniel-Ben Pienaar (2012-2014)
96.  Georges Pludermacher (1998)
97.  Maurizio Pollini (1975-2014)
98.  Jean Bernard Pommier (1991-1998)
99.  Martin Rasch (2014-2016)
100. Robert Riefling (1965-1968)
101. Bernard Roberts I (Nimbus, 1978-1979)
102. Bernard Roberts II (Nimbus, 1984-1985)
103. Martin Roscoe (2007-2013)
104. Peter Rösel (2008-2011)
105. Akiyoshi Sako (2001)
106. Fazil Say (2018-2019)
107. Konstantin Scherbakov (2019-2020)
108. Andras Schiff (2004-2007)
109. Craig Sheppard (2003-2004)
110. Russell Sherman (1993-2007)
111. Kazune Shimizu (1995-1997)
112. Robert Silverman I (Orpheum Masters,1999)
113. Robert Silverman II (AudioHigh, 2010)
114. Steven Herbert Smith (2009-2012)
115. Minsoo Sohn (2017-2020)
116. Takahiro Sonoda I (Denon, 1968-1969)
117. Takahiro Sonoda II (Evica, 1993-1996)
118. Michael Steinberg (1981-1987)
119. Shoko Sugitani (2001-2005)
120. Peter Takacs (2011)
121. Robert Taub (1995-2007)
122. Martino Tirimo (2008-2018)
123. Daniela Varinska (2004-2008)
124. David Allen Wehr (2002-2004)
125. Gerard Willems (1995-2000)
126. Llyr Williams (2014-2017)
127. Yaeko Yamane (1994-1997)
128. Jingge Yan (2016-2019)
129. Yukio Yokoyama (1998-1999)
130. Maurizio Zaccaria (2019-2021)
131. Tatyana Zagorovskaya et al (2007):
        Vol 1:  Igor Uryash, Sergei Uryvaev
        Vol 2:  Vladimir Shakin, Tatyana Zagorovskaya,
        Vol 3:  Vladimir Shakin, Valery Vishnevsky
        Vol 4:  Valery Vishnevsky, Sergey Uryvaev, Tatyana Zagorovskaya
        Vol 5:  Dmitry Efimov, Valery Vishnevsky, Vladimir Shakin
        Vol 6:  Leonid Zaichik, Tatyana Zagorovskaya, Sergei Uryvaev
        Vol 7:  Igor Lebedev, Dmitry Efimov
        Vol 8:  Igor Lebedev, Valery Vishnevsky, Tatyana Zagorovskaya, Roman Lebedev
        Vol 9:  Pavel Egorov, Galina Sandovskaya
        Vol 10: Igor Lebedev, Tatyana Zagorovskaya
132. Dieter Zechlin (1966-1969)
133. Melodie Zhao (2012-2013)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2023, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 25, 2023, 10:47:10 AMMy curiosity is most definitely piqued by the pianist named Dick Herten, which is a name new to me.  Alas, I could not find any information about the pianist on the internet beyond LinkedIn endorsements.  The set does not exist in physical form at any site I checked; it is not streamable on Amazon, which does list it though; it is not on Spotify.  Nothing at all shows up for Dick Herten on YouTube, which is very strange.  The cycle is, however, on Qobuz.  I streamed some short samples.  The playing is reminiscent of Alicja Kot, Giancarlo Andretti, Shisei Hanai, Vladimir Morrone, and Claudio Colombo.  I am down to buy any real complete cycle at a moment's notice.  I will not spend $50 on Dick Herten.  That name, though. 

Dirk Herten.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 25, 2023, 11:15:54 AM
Quote from: Brachylophosaurus on September 25, 2023, 06:01:07 AMMy apologies. I've made a mistake, I won't be sharing.
I would like to hear which pianists and recordings you enjoy.   :)

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 25, 2023, 11:22:07 AM
Just found a review of Herten:
https://limelightmagazine.com.au/reviews/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-dirk-herten/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 11:26:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2023, 11:11:33 AMDirk Herten.

You're right, my bad.  The Herten cycle, if that is what it is, is available on YouTube, otherwise everything else stands.  Here's a LinkedIn page for Dirk Herten, though I do not know if it is the same Dirk Herten: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dirk-herten-75483337/?originalSubdomain=be

His name appears on a couple Lekeu recordings.  Maybe those are the things to hear.


Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2023, 11:22:07 AMJust found a review of Herten:
https://limelightmagazine.com.au/reviews/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-dirk-herten/

Since I bought Anne Oland's cycle (twice, actually), I'd be willing to buy Herten's cycle, provided it is legit. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2023, 11:41:23 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 25, 2023, 11:26:02 AMYou're right, my bad.  The Herten cycle, if that is what it is, is available on YouTube, otherwise everything else stands.  Here's a LinkedIn page for Dirk Herten, though I do not know if it is the same Dirk Herten: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dirk-herten-75483337/?originalSubdomain=be

His name appears on a couple Lekeu recordings.  Maybe those are the things to hear.


Since I bought Anne Oland's cycle (twice, actually), I'd be willing to buy Herten's cycle, provided it is legit.

 

Dick was better obvs!

He's on spotify here in the UK.


https://open.spotify.com/artist/5HbvPeYCWAxpExCFlfMgb0


Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on September 25, 2023, 11:41:41 AM
The entire Dirk Herkin Beethoven cycle in on Spotify, and I would presume other streaming services.  Since his name shows up as an euphemism for self gratification, I wouldn't be surprised if this is another Claudio Columbo kind of pianist. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 11:48:36 AM
Quote from: San Antone on September 25, 2023, 11:41:41 AMThe entire Dirk Herkin Beethoven cycle in on Spotify, and I would presume other streaming services.  Since his name shows up as an euphemism for self gratification, I wouldn't be surprised if this is another Claudio Columbo kind of pianist. 

He also published a complete Brahms set.  And yet he seems rather unknown.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 11:50:41 AM
I did see in Brachylophosaurus' list that Bernard Roberts is listed twice.  On the Nimbus site, mention is made of two cycles in a Penguin guide review.  I sent an email and online submission request to Wyastone to see if this is in fact the case.  If so, and if the first cycle is available, I will immediately purchase it and listen. 

Edit: The Guardian obituary mentions and Discogs lists four volumes of LPs.  They are direct to disc recordings, so live-in-studio.  I suspect Nimbus did not reissue digitally, so these will join Riefling's set as something I will have to keep an eye out for.  I will keep my turntable, last used in late 2020, just in case I stumble across these two cycles.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 25, 2023, 12:10:52 PM
Quote from: San Antone on September 25, 2023, 11:41:41 AMThe entire Dirk Herkin Beethoven cycle in on Spotify, and I would presume other streaming services.  Since his name shows up as an euphemism for self gratification, I wouldn't be surprised if this is another Claudio Columbo kind of pianist. 

Dirk Herten, even if I understand why it is tempting to call him Herkin.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2023, 01:11:25 PM
Well I'm listening to op 109 played by Dirk Herten now. There is definitely a real pianist there! One with ideas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 25, 2023, 04:22:01 PM
Todd, I don't know whether you'd want to collect LPs or not but there is this available

https://www.cdandlp.com/en/beethoven-robert-riefling/les-32-sonates-pour-piano-rare-12-lp-set-box-stereo-near-mint-condition/lp-box-set/r119957097/
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 25, 2023, 04:32:25 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 25, 2023, 04:22:01 PMTodd, I don't know whether you'd want to collect LPs or not but there is this available

https://www.cdandlp.com/en/beethoven-robert-riefling/les-32-sonates-pour-piano-rare-12-lp-set-box-stereo-near-mint-condition/lp-box-set/r119957097/

In general, I do not.  I will consider it for this cycle, though that shipping is eye watering.  (All in, it would still be about a third less than the ~$300 I paid for four different cycles from Japan.)  If the Riefling cycle is not reissued in modern format for 2027, it likely never will be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 26, 2023, 04:12:38 AM
I received a response from Wyastone about Bernard Roberts' first LvB sonata cycle.  It shall always and forever remain an LP only release, though after copyright expires some label may offer transfers.  Perhaps some pirated copies exist.  The text of the response is below:


Quote from: Wyastone Estate LimitedThank you for your email.

Bernard Roberts did indeed record the Beethoven complete piano sonatas for Nimbus twice. However the first recording was recorded on LP, direct to wax masters. Therefore when audio CD's were introduced we did not have any suitable masters to transfer the audio to CD format, therefore Bernard recorded the complete sonatas for a second time during various recording session at Wyastone between 1982 and 1988.

Unfortunately we no longer have any copies of the original LP's, however you maybe able to source a copy from ebay.

Please do let me know if you have any further questions.

Best Wishes
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 26, 2023, 05:37:41 AM
Spotted another new complete cycle from Japan. 

(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/0000127/2/9/953.jpg)  (https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/0000137/9/0/672.jpg)

Probably have to get this before too long.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 26, 2023, 07:15:15 AM
More stuff for completists:

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/dp/B07RY3VJP3/ref=sr_1_61?crid=3NDH8PK7Y51A2&keywords=beethoven+s%C3%A4mtliche+klaviersonaten&qid=1695741023&s=music&sprefix=beethoven+s%C3%A4mtliche+klaviersonaten%2Cpopular%2C70&sr=1-61
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on September 26, 2023, 08:06:26 AM
Quote from: premont on September 26, 2023, 07:15:15 AMMore stuff for completists:

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/dp/B07RY3VJP3/ref=sr_1_61?crid=3NDH8PK7Y51A2&keywords=beethoven+s%C3%A4mtliche+klaviersonaten&qid=1695741023&s=music&sprefix=beethoven+s%C3%A4mtliche+klaviersonaten%2Cpopular%2C70&sr=1-61

I spotted that a few years ago (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg1281833.html#msg1281833).  At the time there was not much info available online, though now one can view some videos of him playing on YouTube, in all his besocked glory, extracting musical goodness from some baby grands.  It looks like his Op 106 may clock in at over an hour.  I may very well buy it, but not at the current asking price.  All indications are that this would not be a Top 100 cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kapsweiss2021 on September 26, 2023, 09:42:40 AM
And two more recent cycles:

James Brawn on MSR Classics. The last volume (volume 8 ) so far is this:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ4NTE2NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2ODE5NDMxOTF9)

Other volumes have good reviews.
https://www.musicwebinternational.com/2023/05/a-beethoven-odyssey-vol-7-msr-classics/ 
I like it. James Brawn has other live albums on MSR.
With this cd there will only be two sonatas left to record, nºs 28 and 29




Massimiliano Damerini on Library. Eight Volumes

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51iquikDRDL._UX716_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)


Apart from that, Damerini has five volumes of Schubert Sonatas on Arts Label.

Both cycles are on Spotify, Qobuz, Apple...
Sorry for my poor english. I am from Spain.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 26, 2023, 10:18:12 AM
I have earlier considered James Brawn and probably shall acquire his cycle eventually.

Damerini is unknown to me and streaming is not my thing. Is his cycle available as physical CDs?

And I shall pass Michael Nuber by.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on September 26, 2023, 12:39:28 PM
I own a few of the early James Brawn volumes and like them quite a lot. Very happy to hear he is near completion as his style has a lot of integrity and no nonsense.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2023, 01:03:01 PM
Quote from: premont on September 26, 2023, 10:18:12 AMI have earlier considered James Brawn and probably shall acquire his cycle eventually.

Damerini is unknown to me and streaming is not my thing. Is his cycle available as physical CDs?

And I shall pass Michael Nuber by.


I know Damerini's Sciarrino and Fauré - he's a good pianist with an approach which makes me think of Michelangeli and Pollini - clarity, effortless virtuosity, just a natural way of making the music sing and come to life. I haven't heard his LvB before but I'm listening to op 109 now and I'm feeling that it is rather good - I'm certainly going to let it play to the end of the sonata (the greatest accolade!)  -  if the whole cycle is like this, it's a significant achievement.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: San Antone on September 26, 2023, 01:36:45 PM
Quote from: kapsweiss2021 on September 26, 2023, 09:42:40 AMMassimiliano Damerini on Library. Eight Volumes

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51iquikDRDL._UX716_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)

I sampled this one on Spotify and the first thing that struck me with Sonata No. 1 was the slower than usual tempo, but also the sound of the piano which seemed "hollow".  Also a very dry acoustic.  Not sure if any of this will be so off-putting as to cancel my interest in his cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on September 26, 2023, 02:03:03 PM
The first 23 sonatas of the Damerini cycle are on you tube. I listened to the second movement of sonata 1, the first movement of sonata 13 and the entire sonata 14. I find his playing interesting and generally I agree with both Mandryka and Antone, but find Damerini's agogic rubato more expressive and organic than Pollini's somewhat cool expression. So a CD release - if it exists - would interest me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on September 29, 2023, 01:09:36 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51XDCTmzojL.jpg)

I realized recently that I didn't give Solomon's Beethoven much of chance years ago when I picked up his Beethoven Testament CDs, so I made a decision to give his Beethoven sonatas another try. So far, I have heard his Op. 10/3 and it is excellent!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on September 29, 2023, 02:47:47 PM
Quote from: George on September 29, 2023, 01:09:36 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51XDCTmzojL.jpg)

I realized recently that I didn't give Solomon's Beethoven much of chance years ago when I picked up his Beethoven Testament CDs, so I made a decision to give his Beethoven sonatas another try. So far, I have heard his Op. 10/3 and it is excellent!

On that CD is the finest 'Moonlight' ever recorded IMO. The first movement sounds nothing like 'moonlight glittering on Lake Lucerne' because it's not meant to. This is a very dark piece of music and Solomon's slow but controlled tempo where he brings out the melody (if you could call it that) in the lower registers is almost sinister and certainly befitting of the C# minor key. The movement that follows is an increase in tempo from the first and this also happens in the change from II to III. The tempo increase between each movement seems so natural.

There is another recording of Op27/2 by him from a radio broadcast in Berlin from 1956 and it is very similar.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on September 29, 2023, 04:16:38 PM
Quote from: Holden on September 29, 2023, 02:47:47 PMOn that CD is the finest 'Moonlight' ever recorded IMO. The first movement sounds nothing like 'moonlight glittering on Lake Lucerne' because it's not meant to. This is a very dark piece of music and Solomon's slow but controlled tempo where he brings out the melody (if you could call it that) in the lower registers is almost sinister and certainly befitting of the C# minor key. The movement that follows is an increase in tempo from the first and this also happens in the change from II to III. The tempo increase between each movement seems so natural.

There is another recording of Op27/2 by him from a radio broadcast in Berlin from 1956 and it is very similar.



Here are two examples:



Here the 1952 performance of Opus 27/2:



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 01, 2023, 02:32:11 PM
Quote from: George on September 29, 2023, 01:09:36 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51XDCTmzojL.jpg)

I realized recently that I didn't give Solomon's Beethoven much of chance years ago when I picked up his Beethoven Testament CDs, so I made a decision to give his Beethoven sonatas another try. So far, I have heard his Op. 10/3 and it is excellent!
Nice to hear!  I'll have to play some of his Beethoven soon.   :)

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Atriod on October 01, 2023, 07:37:10 PM
I wanted to hear Freire in Grieg's Piano Concerto earlier in the week which turned into listening to all his Columbia albums, some of them multiple times. Addictive.

Finished the night with his op. 111 which was a first time listen. Not a special performance, the second movement is slightly better than the first. Variation 3 is not all that great. Not a terrible variation 4, I don't mind if it's played with some urgency if done well, I don't think Freire does it nearly as well as Pollini 1 or 2. It's all a bit too muted and samey whereas Pollini contrasts the second half very nicely against the first. Lyrical variation 5 but too little too late. My expectations were set high given the week's listening.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/613Up-vp49L._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 10, 2023, 11:40:20 PM
I believe he recently recorded all the piano/violin sonatas. Perhaps these are the first two disks of a cycle?
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2023-10/1696971234_cover.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 09:44:34 AM
Quote from: Zauberschloss on October 01, 2023, 07:37:10 PMI wanted to hear Freire in Grieg's Piano Concerto earlier in the week which turned into listening to all his Columbia albums, some of them multiple times. Addictive.

Finished the night with his op. 111 which was a first time listen. Not a special performance, the second movement is slightly better than the first. Variation 3 is not all that great. Not a terrible variation 4, I don't mind if it's played with some urgency if done well, I don't think Freire does it nearly as well as Pollini 1 or 2. It's all a bit too muted and samey whereas Pollini contrasts the second half very nicely against the first. Lyrical variation 5 but too little too late. My expectations were set high given the week's listening.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/613Up-vp49L._SL1200_.jpg)
Oh, that sounds like a fun treversal!  I only have one recording of his (a live one with Argerich).  I think that I passed on an LP of his or got rid of *it; purchased second hand at a tag sale.  If my memory serves me correctly, a number of the LPs there were moldy.  It's hard to get rid of it once it's been exposed to it.  Some years ago, I went to an "estate sale"...the house was in a heavily wooded area.  I was excited to find some old Casals albums which seemed to be in good shape.  Despite cleaning them on an RCM, you could still smell the mold--even stuck around for awhile on the felt mat on my record player.  :(

*I remember reading good things about his Chopin recordings and it was a double LP, so was very tempted.

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Atriod on October 11, 2023, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 09:44:34 AMOh, that sounds like a fun treversal!  I only have one recording of his (a live one with Argerich).  I think that I passed on an LP of his or got rid of *it; purchased second hand at a tag sale.  If my memory serves me correctly, a number of the LPs there were moldy.  It's hard to get rid of it once it's been exposed to it.  Some years ago, I went to an "estate sale"...the house was in a heavily wooded area.  I was excited to find some old Casals albums which seemed to be in good shape.  Despite cleaning them on an RCM, you could still smell the mold--even stuck around for awhile on the felt mat on my record player.  :(

*I remember reading good things about his Chopin recordings and it was a double LP, so was very tempted.

PD

He is an incredible pianist, the only two albums I haven't cared for from him are Chopin's Nocturnes (tempi are a bit too swift ala Stephen Hough) and op. 111.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 11, 2023, 12:00:57 PM
I haven't heard very much from Freire, I know he's really highly respected by piano people, but somehow I've never explored. By coincidence someone played me his Schubert impromptus recording, the second set, over the weekend and I thought it was lovely.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 03:07:26 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2023, 12:00:57 PMI haven't heard very much from Freire, I know he's really highly respected by piano people, but somehow I've never explored. By coincidence someone played me his Schubert impromptus recording, the second set, over the weekend and I thought it was lovely.
Nice!

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 11, 2023, 09:01:12 PM
Quote from: Zauberschloss on October 11, 2023, 11:40:46 AMHe is an incredible pianist, the only two albums I haven't cared for from him are Chopin's Nocturnes (tempi are a bit too swift ala Stephen Hough) and op. 111.

I like Freire's Nocturnes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on October 11, 2023, 10:56:26 PM
The early/mid 70s Chopin is quite good, also Schumann/Grieg concerti (with Kempe/Munich, this was on some dirt cheap CD series), maybe some solo Liszt & Schumann. Never heard any of his Beethoven, I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 11, 2023, 11:26:33 PM
An acquaintance of mine was a friend of Freire's - both dead now unfortunately. He used to say that one piece Freire loved and excelled in was Mendelssohn's Variations Sérieuses. And here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHX_Qflg-_w

This recital from 1984 is also supposed to be particularly successful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJEVV4SkNME

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 11:43:15 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2023, 11:26:33 PMAn acquaintance of mine was a friend of Freire's - both dead now unfortunately. He used to say that one piece Freire loved and excelled in was Mendelssohn's Variations Sérieuses. And here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHX_Qflg-_w

This recital from 1984 is also supposed to be particularly successful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJEVV4SkNME


Thank you for those links.  I'll listen to them later today.  And sorry to hear about your friend and yes sad news about Freire.  Life is too short.

PD
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Mandryka on October 12, 2023, 04:14:45 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 11:43:15 PMThank you for those links.  I'll listen to them later today.  And sorry to hear about your friend and yes sad news about Freire.  Life is too short.

PD

Thanks. The Schumann in the Toronto recital seems outstanding to me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: kapsweiss2021 on November 12, 2023, 09:25:23 AM
Another complete cycle. This time on Melodiya:

(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2023-11/1699771125_mikhail-lidsky-beethoven-32-sonatas-andante-favori-2023.jpg)



And the first volume of a series... I suppose:

(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2023-11/1699532068_alexander-kobrin-beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-vol_-1-2023.jpg)

Alexander Kobrin is a former winner of 1st prize in Van Cliburn Competition.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2023, 09:29:12 AM
Quote from: kapsweiss2021 on November 12, 2023, 09:25:23 AMAnother complete cycle. This time on Melodiya:

(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2023-11/1699771125_mikhail-lidsky-beethoven-32-sonatas-andante-favori-2023.jpg)


Thanks for the heads up.  $20 at Qobuz.  Hmmm.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2023, 01:06:20 PM
As I prepare to listen to cycle #126 in my collection, by Mikhail Lidsky, I thought I'd take an opportunity to assess, quantitatively, the performance standards of LvB cycles by country.  Since I have established an exhaustive, scientifically rigorous, objective listening system, I am uniquely positioned to reveal which countries produce the finest LvB interpreters.  For this mathematically precise assessment, I included only countries where pianists have recorded two or more cycles.  This was needed because South Africa would otherwise bestride the world.  Scoring is like golf, the lower the score, the better.  The attachment reveals the incontrovertible truth: Germany wins!

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Madiel on November 12, 2023, 01:14:48 PM
Home ground advantage.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on December 16, 2023, 07:33:10 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ca/zd/mdyaucbjfzdca_600.jpg)

Found another heretofore unknown to me cycle, this time by one Riccardo Schwartz.  There are some basically unwatched YouTube videos of him playing some chunks of music, and the Fazioli site lists him as an artist, so it looks legit enough.  I'll probably have to buy it and give it a shot.  I will approach it the way I approached John Kane's cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 16, 2023, 08:07:28 AM
A thought while listening to the Lucchesini cycle this weekend (15 down, 17 to go): what makes this special is that the playing and the recording are so sympathetic to each other. Lucchesini wants the music to glow, and the engineers make sure that his playing glows. The warm, blooming resonance of the concert hall perfectly suits his style. If he'd been recorded by the somewhat cold Hyperion engineers, or in the practice room-sized boxes Naxos sometimes uses, the magic spell would be broken. Such a good marriage of playing and engineering.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on December 16, 2023, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2023, 08:07:28 AMA thought while listening to the Lucchesini cycle this weekend (15 down, 17 to go): what makes this special is that the playing and the recording are so sympathetic to each other. Lucchesini wants the music to glow, and the engineers make sure that his playing glows. The warm, blooming resonance of the concert hall perfectly suits his style. If he'd been recorded by the somewhat cold Hyperion engineers, or in the practice room-sized boxes Naxos sometimes uses, the magic spell would be broken. Such a good marriage of playing and engineering.

This made me go to Qobuz for a listen and I can hear what you are talking about. They really sound great through headphones.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 16, 2023, 12:43:45 PM
Yeah, it sounded OK at home but then I put on No. 6 in the car and cranked the volume up and the louder, the better.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2023, 12:08:38 AM
Is that the live recording rec. ca. 2000 or has Lucchesini made another later one? I am not sure but I suspect that many of these are real live recordings (not like most split together from several concerts), in any case they more often seem to show as sense of spontaneity and occasion than many other recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Papy Oli on December 17, 2023, 01:27:40 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 16, 2023, 12:07:38 PMThis made me go to Qobuz for a listen and I can hear what you are talking about. They really sound great through headphones.

This made me go to Idagio for a first listen. Very nimble 1st sonata.

Quote from: Jo498 on December 17, 2023, 12:08:38 AMIs that the live recording rec. ca. 2000 or has Lucchesini made another later one? I am not sure but I suspect that many of these are real live recordings (not like most split together from several concerts), in any case they more often seem to show as sense of spontaneity and occasion than many other recordings.

The 1st sonata is definitely a live recording. A Few coughs here and there and some shuffling can be heard.

edit: oh and some applause at the end  :-[  :laugh:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2023, 02:08:57 AM
They are certainly live recordings!
I didn't mean to doubt that. My point was that many live recordings are not single takes from one concert.
Even the Vienna New Years Day concert recordings are to my knowledge "mixed" together from 2 or 3 concerts (New years eve, New years day, maybe another one) and the public? dress rehearsal of that concert (on the 29th or 30th, I believe).
Other "live" recordings might be from a program that was played even more times over several weeks or even months! I was speculating that in Lucchesini's Beethoven more than usual is "real live", i.e. not spliced together from many concerts during a season. But I don't know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Papy Oli on December 17, 2023, 02:19:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 17, 2023, 02:08:57 AMThey are certainly live recordings!
I didn't mean to doubt that. My point was that many live recordings are not single takes from one concert.
Even the Vienna New Years Day concert recordings are to my knowledge "mixed" together from 2 or 3 concerts (New years eve, New years day, maybe another one) and the public? dress rehearsal of that concert (on the 29th or 30th, I believe).
Other "live" recordings might be from a program that was played even more times over several weeks or even months! I was speculating that in Lucchesini's Beethoven more than usual is "real live", i.e. not spliced together from many concerts during a season. But I don't know.

my bad, @Jo498 , I misread/misunderstood.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2023, 03:53:03 AM
No problem, your comment gives some evidence that they might be un- or barely edited real live recordings. I have had the set on CD for years but it's been a while that I listened to them, so I didn't remember if there was applause (which in itself doesn't prove much, could still be from several concerts).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Brian on December 17, 2023, 05:16:43 AM
I don't have much additional information about the live nature, there is definitely some coughing. The booklet only lists recording years (1999-2001), not specific dates.

The booklet adds that he performed the 32 across two concert seasons at three different venues in Italy, with recordings taking place at one of the three (the school where he taught in Turin), and also did the five concertos, sadly not recorded.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: premont on January 05, 2024, 01:20:40 PM
The Italian pianist Maurizio Paciariello has undertaken the job to record all Beethoven's piano sonatas on fortepiano for the label Da Vinci Classics. So far five vol.s (6 CD's) have been released containing about two thirds of the sonatas. I have heard two of the CDs and I am certainly impressed. The pianist belongs to the poetic group (with e.g. Kempff and Lortie) and his playing is competent, well articulated, expressive and thoughtful with a nice feeling for the dynamics and rhetoric of the music. Very much recommended particularly for listeners who like or maybe even prefer fortepiano for these sonatas.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Que on January 05, 2024, 02:16:30 PM
Quote from: premont on January 05, 2024, 01:20:40 PMThe Italian pianist Maurizio Paciariello has undertaken the job to record all Beethoven's piano sonatas on fortepiano for the label Da Vinci Classics. So far five vol.s (6 CD's) have been released containing about two thirds of the sonatas. I have heard two of the CDs and I am certainly impressed. The pianist belongs to the poetic group (with e.g. Kempff and Lortie) and his playing is competent, well articulated, expressive and thoughtful with a nice feeling for the dynamics and rhetoric of the music. Very much recommended particularly for listeners who like or maybe even prefer fortepiano for these sonatas.

Interesting. Had those bookmarkedbut haven't given them a listen yet.
Thanks for posting!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 12, 2024, 02:39:21 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81JNMwybSEL._SY425_.jpg)

Finally on the release schedule.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on January 12, 2024, 04:10:23 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 12, 2024, 02:39:21 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81JNMwybSEL._SY425_.jpg)

Finally on the release schedule.



Thanks for the information!


I assume these are good/great performances?


I know nothing about her, but this is offered on YouTube:



Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on January 12, 2024, 04:11:37 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 12, 2024, 04:10:23 PMI assume these are good/great performances?

I've never heard her play.  I've been waiting for this cycle since 2019 or 2020 because I knew it was out there.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Cato on January 12, 2024, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 12, 2024, 04:11:37 PMI've never heard her play.  I've been waiting for this cycle since 2019 or 2020 because I knew it was out there.


Ah!  Okay!  I will find as many performances on the Internet as I can to get an impression.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Hans Holbein on February 06, 2024, 10:44:30 PM
I wonder if anyone here might be able to help me out. Some years ago I bought the L'Oiseau-Lyre Classical & Romantic box, largely because it contained the Malcolm Binns Beethoven sonatas. Well, it took me a good while to get around to listening to the whole thing, and I have found that the last track on one of the discs is completely unplayable and unrippable. It's the last track on CD 33 - the last movement of the Appassionata.

I've tried repeatedly with two different CD drives and two different CD players, but without success. The disc always skips or freezes.

This is perhaps due to the decision made by the set's producers to cram more than 83 minutes of music onto the CD in question.

Ordinarily, I would simply go to Presto or some other purveyor of downloads, buy the missing track, and that would be that. But this set does not seem to be available for downloading or streaming anywhere. Searching less licit channels has also proved fruitless.

I suppose I could write to Universal. But I have a feeling that wouldn't amount to anything.

That's why I'm asking GMG for help. If anyone has a nice clean digital copy of this single track, and are willing to share it with me, please let me know.

Or alternately, if anyone knows a download source, that would be good too.

Thank you in advance for any help you might be able to provide!

The missing track again is Track 12 from CD 33 of the L'Oiseau-Lyre "Classical & Early Romantic" box set.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Hans Holbein on February 07, 2024, 06:20:30 PM
This evening I remembered that I had one more CD player available to try - a Sony from 1986 that I had put away in storage. It didn't exactly work, but to my surprise it outperformed all the other players and drives I had tried. I was able to listen to the whole movement, BUT it was accompanied by constant, repetitive CD skipping sounds. So I'm still looking for a clean copy...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Hans Holbein on February 07, 2024, 08:23:36 PM
Thank you! You've solved a very frustrating problem and I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on February 09, 2024, 03:36:52 PM
Hello, GMG-ers! I was active on the forum for a while, quite a few years ago at this point, but then took a long-ish break from classical music obsession. That obsession returned with a vengence over the past couple years, but only recently have I found the time to return to the forum and start exploring some of these threads. In particular, I have been focused on Beethoven's sonatas over the past weeks, and have managed to read this entire thread. What a wonderful trove of insight, especially from regular contributors like Todd, George, Mandryka, Premont, and AMW, among others.

It was also kind of fascinating to come across my own posts from back in 2015. At that time, I was new to the sonatas, but had done enough reading and sampling to have purchased two complete sets: the Backhaus stereo and the Annie Fischer. I was contemplating acquiring the Gulda Amadeo and the Lucchesini sets (the latter of which was very tough to acquire at that point). Fast forward all these years, and I recently acquired both those sets, along with the period-instrument Badura-Skoda set.

First of all, it probably goers without saying that I am just in awe of these compositions. I'm not one who tends to believe in transcendental concepts like "genius," but I can certainly see why Beethoven's body of work would prompt such thinking. Even knowing next to nothing about music theory, the sheer complexity of both sound and emotion that emerges in these performances from this seemingly straightforward instrument consisting of 81 hammered notes is nothing short of staggering.

I'd like to share a few thoughts about the cycles I currently own, and some others I'm considering acquiring in the near future. To begin with, for my own tastes, I think I made a wise decision with my initial purchase of the Fischer and stereo Backhaus cycles. For one thing, I really seem to enjoy the sound of Bösendorfer pianos, with what I would describe as an enhanced sonic contrast (in comparison to other modern pianos) between the powerful, thundering growling lower notes and the twinklingly delicate higher notes. Both these sets feature fantastic recorded sound as well, with the Fischer standing out for the sheer palpability of the bass and the Backhaus featuring a perfect balance of clarity and sweetness throughout the tonal range.I also enjoy both their interpretive voices, with Fischer having a very dramatic, intense approach, and Backhaus favoring a somewhat smaller-scaled, more spontaneous-seeming approach that somehow strikes me as "just right" in a way that's hard for me to put my finger on in many of the sonatas.

Lucchesini is interesting in that I think I enjoy his lushly sensuous style, but (as I now see I pointed out back in 2015, when I must have sampled it over my speakers via Spotity from my iPad)  I find the highly reverberant live acoustic distracting. I noticed Brian mentioned a few pages back that he loved the reverb, but thought it worked better in the car or with headphones than over full speakers. I think there's something to that, as I didn't notice the problem until I heard over my full system. I don't think the engineering is bad--to the contrary, it's tonally very balanced--but it seems to be a nice capture of a performance in what to me is simply an overly reverberant space (though perhaps different microphone placement could have created a closer piano sound). Brian thought a drier perspective would have taken away some of the magic of this singularly flowing performance. I can see that up to a point, but perhaps something somewhere in between this cavernousness and a more traditionally audiophile perspective may have been ideal.

That said, I've just discovered what may just be my ideal recording, particularly from the perspective of the sound capture, in the Badura-Skoda period set. Good heavens, what I'm hearing from this set simply leaves me awestruck. From having previously sampled some of the Brautigam set, which everyone was talking about back when I was first exploring the sonatas, I had the idea that a fortepiano sounded kind of like a neutered modern piano, and the source of interest was in hearing how the pianist would try to make up for its limitations. With Badura-Skoda, I'm not getting that impression in any way, shape, or form--rather than working around its limitations, he seems to be making the case that these fortepianos (actual vintage ones, as opposed to the modern recreations many pianists seem to have used) can do many things that modern pianos cannot, particularly in terms of textural contrast and spectacular (sometimes almost psychedelically so) tone colorations. The contrast between bass and treble textures I enjoy on Bösendorfers is even more pronounced on these instruments, and their relative lack of sustain also allows for faster playing to sound far more natural and clearly articulated than on modern pianos, perhaps allowing Beethoven's oft-debated tempo indications to make more sense. For the most part, the interpretations have lived up to the incredible sonics, with even the more tender moments coming across as effectively as the spectacular ones. I'm honestly surprised this set hasn't produced more discussion, pro or con. (For those who are curious, it's available for only $20 as a FLAC download from Qobuz, as is the once-unobtainable Lucchesini set).

To further emphasize the strengths of this set, I downloaded it on the very same day I received the Gulda set in the mail. The Gulda was a surprising disappointment--I never would have guessed from my online sampling how mediocre the sonics were, and I also remembered the the performances being less bland, though I think there are some nice aspects to several of the interpretations I've heard so far that are quite different from what most people (both supporters and detractors of the set) have described. First, on the sonics: they are not terrible, but I hear a kind of glaring upper midrange that isn't exactly harsh, but is kind of overbearing and even slightly fatiguing. Conversely, bass and upper treble seem rolled off, leaving an impression of somewhat blurry mushiness to go along with the midrange glare. This is the Amadeo Decca Eloquence version, so it's possible that the Brilliant version avoids these problems (though some posters in this thread have said that the sonic differences are minimal).

Interpretation-wise, my initial instinct (starting my listening with the Pastoral and Op. 31 sonatas) was that these came across as very bland, somewhat uninpspired sight-readings. I've never heard Jeno Jando's performances, but these sounded pretty much what I imagined Jando's interpretations to sound like based on how people describe them. I didn't really notice the speed people usually talk about with regard to Gulda, in part because the notes tend to blur together enough that the overall impression lacks energy. On the other hand, there is something kind of subtly compelling about his swift but soft-edged approach--it can sound kind of relaxed (despite the quick tempos) and even conversational at times, somewhat in the vein of Backhaus, but in a less unpredictable way. I noticed he had a surprisingly effective "Moonlight" sonata, and I thought his no. 28 had an extra bit of subtle tension that made it one of his more effective performances (it probably helped my impression of this Gulda performance that no. 28 seemed to be a rare sonata where Badura-Skoda felt a little uninspired). I thought Gulda's "Hammerclavier" was enjoyable as well, albeit in a considerably more low-key way than most of my favorite versions. On the other hand, his final three sonatas just felt a little too bland and lacking in both sonic and emotional texture to me.

I realize this is a LONG post--sorry about that, and many thanks to anyone who's actually read this far! I'm curious as to whether anyone has any thoughts about my impressions of these particular cycles. I'll probably follow up shortly with some thoughts on cycles I'm considering for future purchases, as well as further explorations of some of the earlier sonatas that I've been somewhat neglecting so far in my journey of discovery.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Atriod on February 10, 2024, 06:06:11 AM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on February 09, 2024, 03:36:52 PMHello, GMG-ers! I was active on the forum for a while, quite a few years ago at this point, but then took a long-ish break from classical music obsession. That obsession returned with a vengence over the past couple years, but only recently have I found the time to return to the forum and start exploring some of these threads. In particular, I have been focused on Beethoven's sonatas over the past weeks, and have managed to read this entire thread. What a wonderful trove of insight, especially from regular contributors like Todd, George, Mandryka, Premont, and AMW, among others.

It was also kind of fascinating to come across my own posts from back in 2015. At that time, I was new to the sonatas, but had done enough reading and sampling to have purchased two complete sets: the Backhaus stereo and the Annie Fischer. I was contemplating acquiring the Gulda Amadeo and the Lucchesini sets (the latter of which was very tough to acquire at that point). Fast forward all these years, and I recently acquired both those sets, along with the period-instrument Badura-Skoda set.

First of all, it probably goers without saying that I am just in awe of these compositions. I'm not one who tends to believe in transcendental concepts like "genius," but I can certainly see why Beethoven's body of work would prompt such thinking. Even knowing next to nothing about music theory, the sheer complexity of both sound and emotion that emerges in these performances from this seemingly straightforward instrument consisting of 81 hammered notes is nothing short of staggering.

I'd like to share a few thoughts about the cycles I currently own, and some others I'm considering acquiring in the near future. To begin with, for my own tastes, I think I made a wise decision with my initial purchase of the Fischer and stereo Backhaus cycles. For one thing, I really seem to enjoy the sound of Bösendorfer pianos, with what I would describe as an enhanced sonic contrast (in comparison to other modern pianos) between the powerful, thundering growling lower notes and the twinklingly delicate higher notes. Both these sets feature fantastic recorded sound as well, with the Fischer standing out for the sheer palpability of the bass and the Backhaus featuring a perfect balance of clarity and sweetness throughout the tonal range.I also enjoy both their interpretive voices, with Fischer having a very dramatic, intense approach, and Backhaus favoring a somewhat smaller-scaled, more spontaneous-seeming approach that somehow strikes me as "just right" in a way that's hard for me to put my finger on in many of the sonatas.

Lucchesini is interesting in that I think I enjoy his lushly sensuous style, but (as I now see I pointed out back in 2015, when I must have sampled it over my speakers via Spotity from my iPad)  I find the highly reverberant live acoustic distracting. I noticed Brian mentioned a few pages back that he loved the reverb, but thought it worked better in the car or with headphones than over full speakers. I think there's something to that, as I didn't notice the problem until I heard over my full system. I don't think the engineering is bad--to the contrary, it's tonally very balanced--but it seems to be a nice capture of a performance in what to me is simply an overly reverberant space (though perhaps different microphone placement could have created a closer piano sound). Brian thought a drier perspective would have taken away some of the magic of this singularly flowing performance. I can see that up to a point, but perhaps something somewhere in between this cavernousness and a more traditionally audiophile perspective may have been ideal.

That said, I've just discovered what may just be my ideal recording, particularly from the perspective of the sound capture, in the Badura-Skoda period set. Good heavens, what I'm hearing from this set simply leaves me awestruck. From having previously sampled some of the Brautigam set, which everyone was talking about back when I was first exploring the sonatas, I had the idea that a fortepiano sounded kind of like a neutered modern piano, and the source of interest was in hearing how the pianist would try to make up for its limitations. With Badura-Skoda, I'm not getting that impression in any way, shape, or form--rather than working around its limitations, he seems to be making the case that these fortepianos (actual vintage ones, as opposed to the modern recreations many pianists seem to have used) can do many things that modern pianos cannot, particularly in terms of textural contrast and spectacular (sometimes almost psychedelically so) tone colorations. The contrast between bass and treble textures I enjoy on Bösendorfers is even more pronounced on these instruments, and their relative lack of sustain also allows for faster playing to sound far more natural and clearly articulated than on modern pianos, perhaps allowing Beethoven's oft-debated tempo indications to make more sense. For the most part, the interpretations have lived up to the incredible sonics, with even the more tender moments coming across as effectively as the spectacular ones. I'm honestly surprised this set hasn't produced more discussion, pro or con. (For those who are curious, it's available for only $20 as a FLAC download from Qobuz, as is the once-unobtainable Lucchesini set).

To further emphasize the strengths of this set, I downloaded it on the very same day I received the Gulda set in the mail. The Gulda was a surprising disappointment--I never would have guessed from my online sampling how mediocre the sonics were, and I also remembered the the performances being less bland, though I think there are some nice aspects to several of the interpretations I've heard so far that are quite different from what most people (both supporters and detractors of the set) have described. First, on the sonics: they are not terrible, but I hear a kind of glaring upper midrange that isn't exactly harsh, but is kind of overbearing and even slightly fatiguing. Conversely, bass and upper treble seem rolled off, leaving an impression of somewhat blurry mushiness to go along with the midrange glare. This is the Amadeo Decca Eloquence version, so it's possible that the Brilliant version avoids these problems (though some posters in this thread have said that the sonic differences are minimal).

Interpretation-wise, my initial instinct (starting my listening with the Pastoral and Op. 31 sonatas) was that these came across as very bland, somewhat uninpspired sight-readings. I've never heard Jeno Jando's performances, but these sounded pretty much what I imagined Jando's interpretations to sound like based on how people describe them. I didn't really notice the speed people usually talk about with regard to Gulda, in part because the notes tend to blur together enough that the overall impression lacks energy. On the other hand, there is something kind of subtly compelling about his swift but soft-edged approach--it can sound kind of relaxed (despite the quick tempos) and even conversational at times, somewhat in the vein of Backhaus, but in a less unpredictable way. I noticed he had a surprisingly effective "Moonlight" sonata, and I thought his no. 28 had an extra bit of subtle tension that made it one of his more effective performances (it probably helped my impression of this Gulda performance that no. 28 seemed to be a rare sonata where Badura-Skoda felt a little uninspired). I thought Gulda's "Hammerclavier" was enjoyable as well, albeit in a considerably more low-key way than most of my favorite versions. On the other hand, his final three sonatas just felt a little too bland and lacking in both sonic and emotional texture to me.

I realize this is a LONG post--sorry about that, and many thanks to anyone who's actually read this far! I'm curious as to whether anyone has any thoughts about my impressions of these particular cycles. I'll probably follow up shortly with some thoughts on cycles I'm considering for future purchases, as well as further explorations of some of the earlier sonatas that I've been somewhat neglecting so far in my journey of discovery.

Congrats on finding the Lucchesini cycle! Hope you stick around, I remember a post from yours years ago on GMG that introduced me to Novak Quartet's Bartok String Quartet cycle, superb.

Someone said Lucchesini had interest in recording a period instrument set, I hope that some day comes to fruition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: NorthNYMark on February 10, 2024, 07:39:04 PM
Thanks so much!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Atriod on February 11, 2024, 06:03:06 AM
Lucchesini and reverb - I don't really think about this much, my preference would have been for a typical studio recording which is much more direct sound than reflected, if I could have my way all solo keyboard music would be recorded at Teldex in Berlin. IMO RT60 measurement in your room will also play a role (and your taste/preference in recording sound) in what something like a high reverb recording like Lucchesini will sound like. Aside from speakers it took years of experimenting with room treatments to find an RT60 and subjective impression I found that I was happy with.

Paul Badura-Skoda - I have never warmed to this cycle. I had FLACs of the old Astree CDs and listened to them occasionally. I bought the Arcana reissue to have the CDs but still didn't quite find PBS' interpretations that satisfactory. My favorite period instrument performances from him are his Mozart Piano Sonata cycle where his performances are so good they overcome what I find is mediocre music. The Schubert is in general a bit worse than the Beethoven but I love his performance of the Impromptus. For period instrument recordings from Hammerklavier on I find Peter Serkin is in a different league from the rest (though the reproductions used here are not as characteristic as PBS' genuine vintage instruments). Brautigam, a once only listen for me, all a bit too one-note samey (which I find with Gulda Amadeo too)

Backhaus - there are several live mono recordings from labels like Orfeo, Melo, etc. These performances are more spontaneous ala the Decca mono cycle. Interpretively and technique wise there is not that much difference between the two cycles and live, but that bit of extra energy/spontaneity/inspiration can make a big difference in my appreciation. Maybe worth visiting if you already like Backhaus. The sound is usually worse than the exceptional sound of the stereo cycle, but I never listen to the stereo cycle when we have the complete mono and those live recordings.

Annie Fischer - in every single sonata she recorded twice I prefer the EMI recordings (or BBC live in a couple of late ones), but the sound is worse than the Hungaroton. Some of the edits on Hungaroton don't even sound like the intern was responsible for them, it sounds like some guy that was trained on the same day, big jumps in level and clipped notes between splices. Still, I agree with you a very special cycle.

Gulda Amadeo - there are at least two different transfers of this, one with artificial reverb and the Brilliant Classics Gulda box which is dry. To me the latter sounds very good, like an above average studio piano recording. Interpretively I find it not particularly characteristic and find Gulda lacking in late Beethoven magic from the Hammerklavier onward, but I have re-evaluated it after getting the Gulda mega box, I now like him in many of those early to mid sonatas and agree with you about a very special Moonlight Sonata with perfectly proportioned outer movements. There is a broadcast Orfeo cycle that generally has even more energy than the Amadeo, but as a whole I prefer the Amadeo. Your complaint about the cycle being bland/uninspired/sight reading is not unfounded, I posted as much many times in this thread.

My most played Beethoven recordings of the last couple of years are Wilhelm Kempff's electric 78/acoustic era recordings, aside from a handful of sonatas I find better than the complete mono DG cycle. I can't say I've been taken with any of the new cycles that have come out during/since the 250 year anniversary.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 11, 2024, 06:57:16 AM
It's been a while that I listened to these recordings but I struggle with your comments on the sound quality.
I remember the Lucchesini as pleasant and "natural" not overly reverberant and the Gulda (amadeo, eloquence might have "improved" it) as unremarkable but solid late 60s sound. And while I don't think I can hear that Fischer's was split together from dozens of takes (thus posthumeously published because the pianist would not authorize it) I found this sometimes unpleasantly direct/harsh (which adds to the powerful way of her playing, though).

I'll probably always have a soft spot for Gulda/Amadeo for biographical reasons. I had had most of the sonatas piecemeal, than got Gilels almost complete Box but was rather disappointed by the sometimes slow, heavy and always very serious readings. A year or two later (all this was in the late 1990s) I got the Gulda box and finally "got" many of the earlier works.
Yes, he is often a bit fast and not poetic enough in some late sonatas (although his opp.106 & 111 are still among my favorites) or slow movements but it has a vigour, sweep and "naturalness" that for me works very well in many, especially earlier and more humorous works (that are, after all, the majority: everything up to op.31 & 49 is "earlyish").
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 11, 2024, 07:10:50 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 11, 2024, 06:57:16 AMIt's been a while that I listened to these recordings but I struggle with your comments on the sound quality.
I remember the Lucchesini as pleasant and "natural" not overly reverberant and the Gulda (amadeo, eloquence might have "improved" it) as unremarkable but solid late 60s sound. And while I don't think I can hear that Fischer's was split together from dozens of takes (thus posthumeously published because the pianist would not authorize it) I found this sometimes unpleasantly direct/harsh (which adds to the powerful way of her playing, though).

Indeed. All three pianists offer unique but powerful performances that far outweigh secondary concerns like sound quality. Additionally, I would have to truly be nitpicking (a practice that destroys my enjoyment of music) to find any real issues with the sound on those sets.       

QuoteI'll probably always have a soft spot for Gulda/Amadeo for biographical reasons. I had had most of the sonatas piecemeal, than got Gilels almost complete Box but was rather disappointed by the sometimes slow, heavy and always very serious readings. A year or two later (all this was in the late 1990s) I got the Gulda box and finally "got" many of the earlier works.
Yes, he is often a bit fast and not poetic enough in some late sonatas (although his opp.106 & 111 are still among my favorites) or slow movements but it has a vigour, sweep and "naturalness" that for me works very well in many, especially earlier and more humorous works (that are, after all, the majority: everything up to op.31 & 49 is "earlyish").

Getting Gulda's set years ago was like an ice cold glass of water on a sunny day. Like you, I sometimes find it difficult to enjoy Gilels recordings of this music, but Gulda's I enjoyed from the opening notes. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: George on February 11, 2024, 07:12:32 AM
Quote from: Hans Holbein on February 07, 2024, 08:23:36 PMThank you! You've solved a very frustrating problem and I appreciate it.

You're very welcome! Others have helped me out so I am happy to have a chance to pay it forward.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 11, 2024, 08:02:14 AM
Quote from: George on February 11, 2024, 07:10:50 AMGetting Gulda's set years ago was like an ice cold glass of water on a sunny day. Like you, I sometimes find it difficult to enjoy Gilels recordings of this music, but Gulda's I enjoyed from the opening notes. 
To clarify, I later was able to appreciate many of the Gilels recordings quite a bit, still do and would recommend them as a weighty alternative option. But for first or second contact then in my mid-20s and with not that much experience listening to piano music they were not appealing.
Although I encountered some famous sonatas like op.13 & 57 at 15-16 as a newbie, I was not that fond of piano solo in general for years, so it took me about 10 years to "graduate" to a full set of Beethoven sonatas ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Iota on February 11, 2024, 09:01:21 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 11, 2024, 06:57:16 AM.. A year or two later (all this was in the late 1990s) I got the Gulda box and finally "got" many of the earlier works.
Yes, he is often a bit fast and not poetic enough in some late sonatas (although his opp.106 & 111 are still among my favorites) or slow movements but it has a vigour, sweep and "naturalness" that for me works very well in many, especially earlier and more humorous works (that are, after all, the majority: everything up to op.31 & 49 is "earlyish").

Yes! Gulda is fantastic in the early sonatas particularly. And though he's definitely on the fast side in many from the whole set, I found the speed often spotlighted structural cohesions/opposites in thrilling ways, and created intensity and a sense of danger almost at times, making them feel like the vigorous musical dramas they are.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Holden on February 11, 2024, 01:58:35 PM
Quote from: Iota on February 11, 2024, 09:01:21 AMYes! Gulda is fantastic in the early sonatas particularly. And though he's definitely on the fast side in many from the whole set, I found the speed often spotlighted structural cohesions/opposites in thrilling ways, and created intensity and a sense of danger almost at times, making them feel like the vigorous musical dramas they are.

While I wouldn't say fantastic in the early sonatas I would definitely say very good. The issue about his second and third sets is that as he goes through the ouevre it just becomes all technical (maybe even mechanical) with excessive speed being the norm but with not much variation in dynamic range to create the thrill for me.

I have no issues with speed and my adoration of Gilel's 1960 Moscow Appassionata is proof. However, I get so far into the Gulda later LvB works and I just want to flick on to the next sonata to see if this is just an aberration. IMO the first cycle that Gulda recorded for Orfeo is his best and far more palatable for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Jo498 on February 11, 2024, 11:36:24 PM
I have never heard these early radio (I think that's what they are, they only became available ages later) by Gulda.
THE Gulda recordings have always been the ones on Amadeo that was one of the 5 stereo cycles that were widely distributed, well known and dominated the 1970s and 80s, being rarely or never out of the catalogues (the others were Brendel 1970s, Arrau, Kempff, Backhaus, and Schnabel for historical recordings).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: JBS on February 12, 2024, 04:18:05 AM
Their current incarnation is this
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_849526-T2/images/I/71HX3Opq+qL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_849526-T2/images/I/71cRVfWznWL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 24, 2024, 01:11:40 PM
Four more cycles down since I last refreshed this, the most scientifically rigorous, objectively accurate rating system in the history of rating systems:

Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-21 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Irina Mejoueva (Bijin)
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi


Second Tier - Remainder (in alphabetical order)
Bernard Roberts
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Maurizio Pollini
Maurizio Zaccaria
Michael Levinas
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Tamami Honma
Younwha Lee

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Aquiles Delle Vigne
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl
Andras Schiff
Boris Giltburg
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira
Igor Levit
Irina Mejoueva
Jingge Yan
John O'Conor
Jonathan Biss
Konstantin Scherbakov
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Bilson, et al (Beghin is second tier)
Malcolm Binns
Martin Roscoe
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Muriel Chemin
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Saleem Abboud Ashkar
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Walter Gieseking (EMI/Tahra hybrid)
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Angela Hewitt
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Daniel Barenboim (DG, 2020)
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Konstantin Lifschitz
Llŷr Williams
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch
Martino Tirimo   
Melodie Zhao
Mikhail Lidsky
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Robert Benz
Robert Taub
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Yukio Yokoyama


Near Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland


Eighth Circle of Hell
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Crime Against Humanity
Riccardo Schwartz
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: DavidW on March 24, 2024, 03:50:26 PM
Pienaar keeps reappearing.  I love his Byrd.  Will try his Haydn, maybe down the line I will try his Beethoven too.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: hopefullytrusting on March 24, 2024, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 24, 2024, 01:11:40 PMCrime Against Humanity
Riccardo Schwartz

Okay, I had to give this a listen. Holy heck! :o Take your damn feet off the pedals. It sounded so muddled.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: Todd on March 24, 2024, 04:28:12 PM
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on March 24, 2024, 04:23:08 PMOkay, I had to give this a listen. Holy heck! :o Take your damn feet off the pedals. It sounded so muddled.

Which sonata?  If not Op 106, I double dog dare you to listen to the entire opening movement of that one. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
Post by: hopefullytrusting on March 24, 2024, 05:39:48 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 24, 2024, 04:28:12 PMWhich sonata?  If not Op 106, I double dog dare you to listen to the entire opening movement of that one. 

Op. 2, No. 1

I will place that as a high priority. :-D