The Five Beethoven Piano Concertos and The Choral Fantasy

Started by George, July 03, 2008, 05:00:46 AM

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Josquin des Prez

Quote from: Bogey on July 05, 2008, 06:21:30 AM
Not only do I enjoy the Choral Fantasy, it probably is my favorite Beethoven composition, period. 

I think you have chosen the wrong hobby here. May i suggest gardening?

DavidRoss

Welcome back, Bill.  You seem to have chosen to return on a weekend when the nutcases are more peckish than usual.  Consider it good practice for dealing with your kids when they become teenagers.  ;)
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: DavidRoss on July 05, 2008, 05:37:56 PM
Welcome back, Bill.  You seem to have chosen to return on a weekend when the nutcases are more peckish than usual.  Consider it good practice for dealing with your kids when they become teenagers.  ;)

Yeah, I remember when I was 13 and thought I knew it all. In fact, I had so much taste, I had some to spare for those who were lacking (IMO).   ::)

8)

----------------
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mn dave

The "Choral Fantasy" was completely missed by me. Until this thread, I didn't even realize the work existed. Turns out I have an Arrau version and Rachmaninoff.

M forever

There is a recording of the choral fantasy with Rachmaninoff?

dirkronk

Quote from: Mn Dave on July 05, 2008, 05:49:04 PM
The "Choral Fantasy" was completely missed by me. Until this thread, I didn't even realize the work existed. Turns out I have an Arrau version and Rachmaninoff.

?
If you're saying you have Rachmaninoff doing the LvB choral fantasy, I'd very much like to know more. I thought I had Rach's complete performed/recorded works, and the piece doesn't appear on the lists I have. Or have I misinterpreted your post?

Dirk

mn dave

No, I probably just screwed up. What's the opus number?


mn dave

Yeah, the Rachmaninoff is WoO 80.  ;D

I guess I don't have it at all.

Bogey

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 05, 2008, 05:13:13 PM
I think you have chosen the wrong hobby here. May i suggest gardening?

No need to suggest.  I actually just came in from fertilizing our perennial beds.


There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Bogey

And the unintended connections continue.  Partial text of Op. 80 below:  :)


German text                                                                   English translation
Schmeichelnd hold und lieblich klingen                            With grace, charm and sweet sounds
unseres Lebens Harmonien,                                           The harmonies of our life,
und dem Schönheitssinn entschwingen                          And the sense of beauty engenders
Blumen sich, die ewig blühn.                                         The flowers which eternally bloom.
Fried und Freude gleiten freundlich                                 Peace and joy advancing in perfect accord,
wie der Wellen Wechselspiel.                                          Like the alternating play of the waves;
Was sich drängte rauh und feindlich,                              All harsh and hostile elements
ordnet sich zu Hochgefühl.                                              Render to a sublime sentiment.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Holden

Quote from: scarpia on July 05, 2008, 04:40:52 PM
Nikolaus Harnoncourt, one of the most influential conductors of our generation, found something interesting in Airmard's interpretation but you judge it "sub standard."   What am I to think?  I have the set and recall listening to 1, 3 an 5 so far.  I guess I lack your discernment, since I found them very interesting and enjoyable.


A whole lot of variables here but the point I was trying to make was about the way that critics seem to overgild the lily when discussing new releases.

If you liked it then that's fine. But did Harnoncourt actually find something "interesting" in the Aimard interpretation? Apart from the usual hype and rhetoric that the recording company printed I haven't seen anything else about Harnoncourt's opinion. A recording contract is money so he's taken it and good on him.
Cheers

Holden

M forever

Quote from: Holden on July 06, 2008, 12:18:42 AM
If you liked it then that's fine. But did Harnoncourt actually find something "interesting" in the Aimard interpretation? Apart from the usual hype and rhetoric that the recording company printed I haven't seen anything else about Harnoncourt's opinion. A recording contract is money so he's taken it and good on him.

You say you haven't seen anything reflecting Harnoncourt's opinion except for what the marketing rhetoric of the record cmpany has published. So how come then that *you* know so much more about his motivations, namely that according to you, it is obvious that he appeared with the "execreable" Aimard only because he was paid well for doing so? Since you have only listened to one concerto from the cycle, found what you heard disagreeable and returned the CDs without even a second attempt or listening to any of the other performances, how do you know there isn't some musical common ground between the two which may be the reason for this partnership? Especially since someone with a status like Harnoncourt could work with more or less any pianist he wanted to.

I am glad that there are still at least a few artists out there who, instead of repeating the same unreflected and superficially copied standard interpretation blueprints, have enough personality to develop their uniquely own interpretations. That may not always be successful, or not always what you or me or other listeners may want to hear or be able to "understand", but it is a good thing as such, and when it comes to musicians as seasoned and experienced as these, I am always willing to at least try to be open for new ideas and impulses. You should be, too, it can only enrichen you.

scarpia

Quote from: Holden on July 06, 2008, 12:18:42 AM
A whole lot of variables here but the point I was trying to make was about the way that critics seem to overgild the lily when discussing new releases.

If you liked it then that's fine. But did Harnoncourt actually find something "interesting" in the Aimard interpretation? Apart from the usual hype and rhetoric that the recording company printed I haven't seen anything else about Harnoncourt's opinion. A recording contract is money so he's taken it and good on him.

I don't know where the "hype" you are referring to came from, but if you had managed to open the booklet that accompanied the recordings you would have found an essay by Aimard himself which describes how he came to make the recordings and what the rationale was.  As he decribed it, Harnoncourt proposed the recordings after hearing Aimard's performance of a Beethoven Sonata.  He describes an attempt to move away from the typical performance of the concerto as virtuoso display accompanied by orchestra and make a performance where the piano is integrated into the orchestra.  The claim is that this would have been the natural result given the instruments available during Beethoven's lifetime.  So what you consider "sub standard" was actually an idea.  I don't see the point of listening to new recordings if the only purpose is to determine if they meet your predetermined notions of what they should be like.


Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: scarpia on July 06, 2008, 08:14:43 AM
He describes an attempt to move away from the typical performance of the concerto as virtuoso display accompanied by orchestra and make a performance where the piano is integrated into the orchestra. 

That philosophy isn't anything revelatory. Been kicked around the classical biz for a generation. If this is Aimard's 'fresh approach' he's well behind the curve...

(Not a judgment on the performances, mind you...)



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

scarpia

Quote from: donwyn on July 06, 2008, 09:20:07 AM
That philosophy isn't anything revelatory. Been kicked around the classical biz for a generation. If this is Aimard's 'fresh approach' he's well behind the curve...

(Not a judgment on the performances, mind you...)

I certainly recognize this as a typical HIP approach.  I don't have any particular idea of Aimard, but I find that when Harnoncourt decides to rethink some part of the standard repertoire, the results are almost always interesting.

rubio

I don't have favourites for the first two concertos, because I don't really know them yet. For the other beauties:

3rd: Anne Fischer/Ferenc Fricsay (DG)
4th: Edwin Fischer/PO (Testament) for his endlessly thoughtful phrasing!
5th: Kovacevich/Davis/LSO (Philips) and Bohm/Pollini (DG)

I still haven't listened to serious candidates like the Russel Sherman set and Moravec/Neumann in the 3rd.
"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

George

Quote from: rubio on July 16, 2008, 10:52:53 AM
I still haven't listened to serious candidates like the Russel Sherman

A wonderful set!

Quote
set and Moravec/Neumann in the 3rd.

Tell me more, I haven't heard about this one.  :o

dirkronk

Quote from: rubio on July 16, 2008, 10:52:53 AM... and Moravec/Neumann in the 3rd.

I don't want to throw cold water on your hopes, but don't get TOO excited by prospects of this 3rd. I have it on original vinyl. It's interesting, no doubt, but definitely quirky...and IMO not to the level of any of Moravec's 4ths, which I personally like a great deal.

FWIW...

Dirk

M forever

I have it on CD, but the CD is somewhere in a moving box, otherwise I wouldn't mind posting it - which I think would be OK since it's so totally out of print. But the chances of me finding it at this time are very slim. Incidentally, that CD was found and sent to me by Que who has a copy, too, but since he is also moving, it looks like those who want it are really out of luck!