GMG Classical Music Forum

I'm getting into it - so far focussing on Aksel Schiøtz and Jorma Hynninen. Who has brought something special to this cycle?


I must say, Hynninen's Schubert is very good, here and his two Winterreise recordings. Recommended enthusiastically.

I'm going to suggest that Bostridge/Uchida is a major masterpiece - whatever you think about his accent. It combines a meticulous attention to detail in the best Bildungsbuergertum tradition with feeling, expressiveness, angst. Bostridge is able to move from the faux-naive folk music style at the start of the cycle to the quasi-cosmic style later on. His voice still has some of the freshness of his early recording with Johnson. Uchida has excellent judgement about when to keep in the background and when to bring the piano part into the foreground.

From Markus Schäfer and Tobias Koch's landmark recording - though possibly a landmark which no-one else dares visit.

QuoteBaron Carl von Schönstein, to whom Schubert dedicated the first edition of Die schöne Müllerin, published in five volumes in 1824. An original copy of the first edition contains handwritten comments and modifications in Schönstein's own hand Just like the 2nd edition of the cycle published in 1830 by Diabelli in Vienna, and like the handwritten copies of several of the songs passed around in Schubert circles, Schönstein's variants, alternatives and modifications reveal that – despite all respect towards the composer's intentions – it was common practice to approach the score with a certain amount of creative
freedom. Vestiges of the 19th-century art of improvisation are preserved in these well-documented, justifiably proven alterations. Improvisation was a matter of course in music practice
back then, and it lay at the very heart of the musical parlor game invented in Staegemann's
home.


Musicians of Schubert's time reacted to signals they recognized in the score. Repeat signs,
for instance, were always understood to indicate that one should vary the music the second
time around. That also applies to the great number of songs with regularly recurring stanzas
that we find in Die schöne Müllerin, inviting the singer and pianist to embody each stanza in
an appropriate, different way.


Markus Schäfer and Tobias Koch have intensely studied the performance practice of Schubert's
time. However, their take on Berger's and Schubert's Lieder is not intended to be an act of purely
reconstructive historicism, but rather a consciously subjective appropriation and transformation
of a historical practice – far beyond merely ornamenting the original notes. The two musicians
strive to achieve a kind of improvisational trance to emphasize and direct our attention to
details in the text and the music. This not only takes place in the vocal part, but also in the piano
part. In their approach, the piano is allowed to react to the voice or inspire it: by modifying
texture and range, by introducing new accompaniment figures or by imitating the sound of
horns when they are suggested in the text – even by inserting additional bars or by quoting
previously written songs. Such reminiscences do not appear literally in the score, but it contains
them in nuce, nevertheless

QuoteWe could not yet imagine that we were embarking on a new kind of adventure when we
started working together on the two Müllerin settings. Our wide-ranging study of the sources
led us to new insights, which started acquiring a life of their own and helped us acquire an
increasingly unfettered vision of Schubert's heartbreaking song cycle. We were fascinated to
observe the extent to which familiar elements now stood on their head. What had hitherto
seemed a matter of course now revealed itself as just one of many possible interpretations.
Even the "miracle" of apparent unity between music and text only occurs in the uniquely
intuitive moment of a rendition, whether on stage or in the salon. For that to emerge, on every
occasion, a creative process needs to take place on both sides – even when we are listening to
a recording. If performers and listeners make up their minds in advance and if their expectations
are cut-and-dried, they are partially obliterating something that should always remain alive
and which should have its immediate effect in the moment.


To what extent is "historically informed" performance practice supposed to be truly historically
informed? To what extent will audiences regard our experimental approach as postmodern?
Will they understand the crucial question we are raising on the subject of faithfulness to the
original? These works were handed down to us and we have been entrusted with their care.
In all honesty and with all due respect, how could we otherwise approach them than with
wholehearted sincerity, no holds barred?

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/68/000162386.pdf

A couple more landmarks.

Mauro Peter was the pick of the pack in the last BBC Radio 3 Building a Library on this cycle. It strikes me as immaculate and restrained, humble. I think the technical term is "museum quality" The programme, from 2018, is still streaming - I haven't listened yet but will do.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p069qtv7



And this is the first ever recording, Franz Navál. Good voice, good sound for 1909. His voice is elegant, there are lots of embellishments, quirky by the standards of contemporary fashion  - but it's attractive, a real interesting document for me.

(https://winterreise.online/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Vickers1_large.jpg)

The rapid alternation between depressive, manic and tender moods makes this almost bipolar tripolar.  ;D

Even Vickers' slight English accent, far from being annoying, contributes to the feeling of alienation and displacement.

In a league of its own, this Winterreise.

Quote from: Florestan on March 07, 2024, 03:11:40 AM(https://winterreise.online/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Vickers1_large.jpg)

The rapid alternation between depressive, manic and tender moods makes this almost bipolar tripolar.  ;D

Even Vickers' slight English accent, far from being annoying, contributes to the feeling of alienation and displacement.

In a league of its own, this Winterreise.

Wrong cycle. What I'll do is I'll create a new thread for Winterreise landmarks -- as I'm kind of getting into it a bit.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2024, 03:42:11 AMWrong cycle.

Drat! I'm getting older by the day... :)

Quote from: Florestan on March 07, 2024, 03:43:21 AMDrat! I'm getting older by the day... :)

No need to bang you head against the wall... ;)

Quote from: Florestan on March 07, 2024, 03:43:21 AMDrat! I'm getting older by the day... :)

That reminded me of Chard Whitlow's parody of T S Eliot's Burnt Norton


As we get older we do not get any younger.
Seasons return, and today I am fifty-five,
And this time last year I was fifty-four,
And this time next year I shall be sixty-two.
And I cannot say I should like (to speak for myself)
To see my time over again— if you can call it time:
Fidgeting uneasily under a draughty stair,
Or counting sleepless nights in the crowded Tube.

There are certain precautions— though none of them very reliable—
Against the blast from bombs and the flying splinter,
But not against the blast from heaven, vento dei venti,
The wind within a wind unable to speak for wind;
And the frigid burnings of purgatory will not be touched
By any emollient.
                                    I think you will find this put,
Better than I could ever hope to express it,
In the words of Kharma: "It is, we believe,
Idle to hope that the simple stirrup-pump
Will extinguish hell."
                                            Oh, listeners,
And you especially who have turned off the wireless,
And sit in Stoke or Basingstoke listening appreciatively to the silence,
(Which is also the silence of hell) pray not for your selves but your souls.
And pray for me also under the draughty stair.
As we get older we do not get any younger.

And pray for Kharma under the holy mountain.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2024, 03:54:08 AMThat reminded me of Chard Whitlow's parody of T S Eliot's Burnt Norton


As we get older we do not get any younger.
Seasons return, and today I am fifty-five,
And this time last year I was fifty-four,
And this time next year I shall be sixty-two.

Brilliant, thanks for that. I'm fifty-one.  :D

Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2024, 03:54:08 AMThat reminded me of Chard Whitlow's parody of T S Eliot's Burnt Norton


As we get older we do not get any younger.
Seasons return, and today I am fifty-five,
And this time last year I was fifty-four,
And this time next year I shall be sixty-two.
And I cannot say I should like (to speak for myself)
To see my time over again— if you can call it time:
Fidgeting uneasily under a draughty stair,
Or counting sleepless nights in the crowded Tube.

There are certain precautions— though none of them very reliable—
Against the blast from bombs and the flying splinter,
But not against the blast from heaven, vento dei venti,
The wind within a wind unable to speak for wind;
And the frigid burnings of purgatory will not be touched
By any emollient.
                                    I think you will find this put,
Better than I could ever hope to express it,
In the words of Kharma: "It is, we believe,
Idle to hope that the simple stirrup-pump
Will extinguish hell."
                                            Oh, listeners,
And you especially who have turned off the wireless,
And sit in Stoke or Basingstoke listening appreciatively to the silence,
(Which is also the silence of hell) pray not for your selves but your souls.
And pray for me also under the draughty stair.
As we get older we do not get any younger.

And pray for Kharma under the holy mountain.

Thank you.

Quote from: Florestan on March 07, 2024, 04:08:07 AMBrilliant, thanks for that. I'm fifty-one.  :D

Just a nipper.

Quote from: AnotherSpin on March 07, 2024, 04:18:38 AMThank you.

I just saw the reference to bombs and put two and two together.  Bon courage.

(https://i.discogs.com/arRH5aa4uVrGT8pISWpCLS6wPis1aw2haEOoDdr4wW8/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:532/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTk0Mjc4/NTktMTU5ODIxODQ1/Ny01NzM5LmpwZWc.jpeg)

What do you make of this? I listened to it yesterday and was positively impressed, but I might be biased, Olaf Baer is one of my favorite Lieder singers.

Die Schöne Müllerin is near and dear to me. " Das Wandern " and " Halt! " were assigned to me for my first vocal Jury exam ( back in the Jurassic period. I think a Stegosaurus was my accompanist, or perhaps Triceratops... ) when l was an aspiring young baritone.

My vocal professor wasn't wild about my studying a recording of the work while learning the basics of operatic vocal production, but she finally relented on the condition that with Schubert l would only listen to Fischer-Dieskau.

I was happy to comply.  8)

Quote from: Florestan on March 07, 2024, 11:34:12 PM(https://i.discogs.com/arRH5aa4uVrGT8pISWpCLS6wPis1aw2haEOoDdr4wW8/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:532/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTk0Mjc4/NTktMTU5ODIxODQ1/Ny01NzM5LmpwZWc.jpeg)

What do you make of this? I listened to it yesterday and was positively impressed, but I might be biased, Olaf Baer is one of my favorite Lieder singers.

A agreeable rich voice, easy to listen to. And quite dramatic. I know him from some Wolf songs - Mörike and Spanisches.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 08, 2024, 08:31:35 AMA agreeable rich voice, easy to listen to. And quite dramatic.

Agreed. There is a palpable sense of greater and greater joy and happiness from the beginning until the hunter makes his appearance, then a palpable sense of deeper and deeper descent into sadness and melancholy. Lovely.

QuoteI know him from some Wolf songs - Mörike and Spanisches.

Have those too and like them. His Schumann is excellent too.

An old discussion of landmark recordings here

http://operacritiques.free.fr/css/index.php?2014/04/15/2451-franz-




@SurprisedByBeauty  - can we have a new discography please. Chop-chop.

(https://i.discogs.com/qQsUpATXJXMwnK6i76pSEnxzJCSS-asj37KgNhOIu1o/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:587/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwNzg0/NDA0LTE1MDQyNzAx/NTMtMTQxMC5qcGVn.jpeg)

This is Goerne's first, 2001. I saw him around that time and was really impressed - the recording brings back the memory. Such dynamic control, such attention to the poetry, such colour, such moderation and taste! Has there ever been a more rapt neugierige?


I must explore his other recordings from the start of the century - he was special.

Petre Munteanu, first listening, started from Die schöne Müllerin. Like it.

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/60/30/0717281893060_600.jpg)

Two parlando performances.

First, Patzak with Raucheisen


And Egmond/Crawford

(https://nationalbookswap.com/cd//xl/FI/W1FI/B000FTW1FI.jpg)


I find  Patzak  makes a powerful impression expressively, there are these kind of storms which come from nowhere!   Egmond has a nice voice. Both a bit quirky, I'd say Patzak is a landmark in some sense. 

Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2024, 12:46:26 AMAn old discussion of landmark recordings here

http://operacritiques.free.fr/css/index.php?2014/04/15/2451-franz-

@SurprisedByBeauty  - can we have a new discography please. Chop-chop.

Oh boy! That's a tall order!
 
Can I placate you with a Twitter-thread on all the recordings of Die Winterreise that Fischer-Dieskau ever made?

https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1685182786217418752 (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1685182786217418752)

I have a few new discographies under way, though... but top of the list is an overhaul of the Bach Organ Cycle Survey.

Wunderlich's DG set is deservedly a classic, but I remember back when I played this music a lot, and back when I had a huge vinyl collection, that I rated his Nonesuch recording even higher.

(https://img.discogs.com/WjOP65TR25uhqGtbvRvNPcorX5o=/fit-in/600x599/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-13163503-1549226924-5885.jpeg.jpg)

Haven't played it in over a decade, though. (well, I haven't played it since all my vinyl got stolen, and I've never encountered that recording on cd).

(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/04/1/3/730.jpg)

Astonishing rendition from Fassbaender and Reimann - tough, sour, harsh, brutal almost. Lyrical but spiky, angular. This is one nasty vengeful lover. Some would say she's taken the music completely the wrong way I guess.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51VK4cc273L._AC_.jpg)

Wanna hear Otello or Siegfried sing Schöne Müllerin? Francisco Araiza's your answer. The DG engineers have not done him any favours though - the timbre is lean and the it's sometimes terribly in your face, it's as if he's there in your living room, singing 2 meters away - full throttle, the volume of a tenor on the stage at Covent Garden. A far cry from his beautiful Winterreise. 


But it's a flexible colourful voice and a dramatic interpretation, nuanced,  sensitive to the poetry. If  he had been more sympathetically recorded it would be top tier.

(https://dieschoenemuellerin.online/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Schade_Buchbinder.jpg)

This is a landmark because, I think, it's the longest Müllerin on record. Michel Schade is a lyric tenor with quite a pure timbre - and here he inflects the music quite dramatically. Buchbinder inflects the piano part quite dramatically too. This is Schade's second Mullerin recording, possibly Buchbinder's second too. There's something a bit self conscious about it all maybe, maybe I've lost my innocence, my open mind. It defo deserves a hearing.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2024, 06:22:35 PMOh boy! That's a tall order!
 
Can I placate you with a Twitter-thread on all the recordings of Die Winterreise that Fischer-Dieskau ever made?

https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1685182786217418752 (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1685182786217418752)

I have a few new discographies under way, though... but top of the list is an overhaul of the Bach Organ Cycle Survey.

Here, you've lost the commission. He who snoozes loses.


https://dieschoenemuellerin.online/

Quote from: Mandryka on March 22, 2024, 09:40:56 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51VK4cc273L._AC_.jpg)

Wanna hear Otello or Siegfried sing Schöne Müllerin? Francisco Araiza's your answer. The DG engineers have not done him any favours though - the timbre is lean and the it's sometimes terribly in your face, it's as if he's there in your living room, singing 2 meters away - full throttle, the volume of a tenor on the stage at Covent Garden. A far cry from his beautiful Winterreise. 


But it's a flexible colourful voice and a dramatic interpretation, nuanced,  sensitive to the poetry. If  he had been more sympathetically recorded it would be top tier.

This is better I think, a Tokyo concert in 1986. The sound is distant though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrG6Iz0yZRE&list=PLCBD203B12D7747E4

Quote from: Mandryka on March 24, 2024, 09:04:36 AMHere, you've lost the commission. He who snoozes loses.


https://dieschoenemuellerin.online/

Yes, that's pretty darn impressive.

(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/582/582477/4/2048/schmidt-jansen-schubert-die-schone-mullerin.jpg)


Andreas Schmidt has recorded Müllerin twice, first on Hänssler and then on DG - same for Winterreise. For DG the voice is deeper, and I would say that the interpretations - both Winterreise and Müllerin - are full of sensitivity. I just find what he does almost devistatingly expressive, moving, not for a minute boring or pretentious. Top tier, for both cycles. To be honest, I'm so impressed by his DG recordings that I may not be doing justice to the earlier ones.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ogt4V0KUL._AC_.jpg)

This is such a fabulous performance because it's so attractive vocally - the pleasure comes from Hans Peter Blochwitz's colourful, flexible voice and his feeling for lyricism and the drama. The result is natural: it feels right, unpretentious and  obliterates the memory of others. The word I want to use for Blochwitz's art is "pure" - but I'm not sure why. Top T Müllerin objectively, if at the end of the day for me it's a bit too extrovert, too operatic. Gaben's pretty good too.

(https://cdn.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/OC511.jpg)

Roman Trekel/Oliver Pohl - Dark, text-aware, interesting and engaged and engaging.

(https://e.snmc.io/i/300/s/2071fc8d02d9e9934cc789a048157d1d/3176828)

It's just impossible not to like this - he's got such a flexible youthful voice and Dähler's piano playing is also flexible and youthful. Not the deepest psychologically or anything like that, but just an enjoyable thing to hear - if it were a concert you'd be well happy, bear happy, to have bothered to go. 

There's an earlier one with Bonneau which I'll check later.

What does Dähler have an ä and Hæfliger have an æ? I thought ä = æ

æ is not a common letter in German, might be different in Switzerland (but I doubt it, it exist historically and in some fonts but lexically it is the same as ä as you said).
However, in names it can simply be that the official spelling of the ä-Sound ist "ae" (separate letters). The official spelling of Haefliger seems with "ae" and apparently the typesetter liked the fused letters for capital letters.
It's "Haefliger" on the Winterreise cover. And Dähler would only be spelled Daehler if the font/typewriter didn't have the umlaut. (I can tell some tales as someone who needed an ID in a US state as a student with a German last name that eventually was spelled in 3 different ways on different documents...)

There is a 3rd recording from ca. 1970 (CBS/Sony) with Werba (the only one I have), also good in a rather straightforward way.

What does Wandern mean? Hike (fast, with an aim in mind) or wander (leisurely, free of objectives)?

It can mean both, but more the former.
In English there is the term journeyman for the kind of travelling artisan that must be imagined for these cycles (of course not written by a worker, but a poet). This was not always/usually because of poor prospects but young artisans were expected/obliged? to "wander" for some time (traditionally 3 years, I believe, but it was probably not always strict) to work for different masters and gain experience. This is still done (voluntarily) in some parts of Europe, especially by carpenters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_years

Today "wandern" is used mostly for hiking, an afternoon stroll is usually too short but if one goes for, say 2-3 hours, one might already call it "Wanderung". But usually it's used for a hike of several hours, usually with some goal. One can of course go leisurely with breaks, watching bird or other stuff but it's usually more than a walk and not aimlessly strolling around.

Quote from: Jo498 on April 26, 2024, 04:54:16 AMIt can mean both, but more the former.
In English there is the term journeyman for the kind of travelling artisan that must be imagined for these cycles (of course not written by a worker, but a poet). This was not always/usually because of poor prospects but young artisans were expected/obliged? to "wander" for some time (traditionally 3 years, I believe, but it was probably not always strict) to work for different masters and gain experience. This is still done (voluntarily) in some parts of Europe, especially by carpenters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_years

Today "wandern" is used mostly for hiking, an afternoon stroll is usually too short but if one goes for, say 2-3 hours, one might already call it "Wanderung". But usually it's used for a hike of several hours, usually with some goal. One can of course go leisurely with breaks, watching bird or other stuff but it's usually more than a walk and not aimlessly strolling around.

The reason I'm asking is just for its implications for the tempo of the first song. "Hike" in English (for me) has connotations of speed.

Listen to Araiza here and look at the discussion (I have it with much better sound)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrG6Iz0yZRE&ab_channel=stern1959

I note that Bostridge in his interesting book on Winterreise translates Wandern as wander and not hike.

I don't think one can derive the tempo of the song. It will always be more lively because of the accompaniment, compared to "Gute Nacht" that is also about "wandern". But I think that compared to an English romantic (I wandered lonely as a cloud...) Müller's songs do have the connonation of purposefully getting somewhere, although the goal is not set. The journeyman might not know where his next job will be or how long he will stay. He has a limited freedom and no exact goals, I guess. But it's still different from the strolling gentleman poet.

Araiza is a bit slow but not so that it feels distorted to me.

Movement in music and in pre-railroad times might be interesting topic.
Take "Abschied" from Schwanengesang that has a similar accompaniment but the guy is on horseback!
So these musical figures are not directly mapping modes of transport and obviously there are also much faster song indicating riding, such as "Erlkönig".

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ5NTY1My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2ODQ5MjEwMjJ9)

Konstantin Krimmel's got a gorgeous voice, baritone, like a cup of velvety Italian style hot chocolate. He  is sensitive to the text in an unforced, natural sounding way. He can do introspective beautifully. It's very much Krimmel's show but Heide is absolutely fine. Good sound.  A downside it's that he occasionally embellishes the music in a way which becomes predictable, I think they're called turns.