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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: DavidW on September 13, 2007, 12:56:21 PM

Title: Haydn's Masses
Post by: DavidW on September 13, 2007, 12:56:21 PM
On the listening thread Harry mentioned buying a Brilliant Classics reissue of the Haydn Masses by Weil.  I'm very much interested in this set, and I'm excited to hear of it's reissue... but I was unable to find it online through my superficial search.  Where can I buy that set?
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Harry on September 13, 2007, 01:02:40 PM
On the listening thread Harry mentioned buying a Brilliant Classics reissue of the Haydn Masses by Weil.  I'm very much interested in this set, and I'm excited to hear of it's reissue... but I was unable to find it online through my superficial search.  Where can I buy that set?

Que told me, that it is only available in Holland. I could not find on all the sites I looked. Que gave me a link to the Dutch site, Kruidvat, and there I ordered it.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: DavidW on September 13, 2007, 01:18:26 PM
Oh okay I'm sure I can be happy with Hickox then. :)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: BorisG on September 13, 2007, 04:32:13 PM
I am pleased to say that I am Mass free and will remain so.  0:)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: DavidW on September 13, 2007, 04:37:42 PM
I am pleased to say that I am Mass free and will remain so.  0:)

Do you float? ;D
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Que on September 13, 2007, 05:25:14 PM
Que told me, that it is only available in Holland. I could not find on all the sites I looked.

I did see enterprising individuals take advantage of that and selling it on ebay.

Q
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: immanueljoseph on October 28, 2007, 11:02:02 PM
Hi,

Did Sir Neville Marriner ever record Haydn's last mass "Harmoniemesse" (Wind-band Mass)? Because, I've never found better recording of Haydn's Great last 6 Masses other than Marriner's. Thank you.

Yours sincerely,
Joseph
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: val on October 29, 2007, 01:04:15 AM
Quote
immanueljoseph


Did Sir Neville Marriner ever record Haydn's last mass "Harmoniemesse" (Wind-band Mass)? Because, I've never found better recording of Haydn's Great last 6 Masses other than Marriner's. Thank you.

Ilove Marriner in Haydn's Masses, but never heard him in the Harmoniemesse. But Ferencsik and Bernstein are very good in this work.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: alkan on October 29, 2007, 02:50:24 AM
I could not find a version with Marriner conducting, but there is a version with "his" orchestra, the Academy of St Martin in the Fields.    This is in the venerable Decca set, with George Guest conducting.     I have this version (and the other late Masses) and I am very happy with it.       I don't know how it compares to Gardiner, Harnoncourt, Bernstein and the others, but I have never been tempted to look for another version.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Harry on March 31, 2009, 12:08:04 AM
I did see enterprising individuals take advantage of that and selling it on ebay.

Q

It is reissued by Sony, the complete set.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Que on March 31, 2009, 12:36:59 AM
It is reissued by Sony, the complete set.

Ah, yes! :) Here it is (issue on 3rd of april in Germany):

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886974762027.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 06:46:41 AM
Ah, yes! :) Here it is (issue on 3rd of april in Germany):

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886974762027.jpg)

Q

The original set was 5 cds.  This set is 4 cds.  I don't know whether material has been cut or whether they have just rearranged the material to fit on to fewer discs.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31nIOoG2kjL._SL500_AA203_.jpg)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Que on March 31, 2009, 07:08:48 AM
The original set was 5 cds.  This set is 4 cds.  I don't know whether material has been cut or whether they have just rearranged the material to fit on to fewer discs.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31nIOoG2kjL._SL500_AA203_.jpg)


I just did a check between my own (Benelux-only) Brilliant set (above) and the listing of the Vivarte reissue on jpc. And you all are not going to be pleased.... :-\

Basically, all what is on the 5th disc in my set is missing:
Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass")
Mare Clausum, Hob. XXIVa:9 (fragment) (on CD 4)
Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2
Offertorium "Non nobis, Domine", Hob. XXIIIa:1
Ave Regina, Hob XXIIIb:3
Responsoria de Venerabili, Hob. XXIIIc:4a-d
Responsorium ad absolutionem "Libera me", Hob XXIIb:1
Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:1

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 07:27:42 AM
I just did a check between my own (Benelux-only) Brilliant set (above) and the listing of the Vivarte reissue on jpc. And you all are not going to be pleased.... :-\

Basically, all what is on the 5th disc in my set is missing:
Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass")
Mare Clausum, Hob. XXIVa:9 (fragment) (on CD 4)
Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2
Offertorium "Non nobis, Domine", Hob. XXIIIa:1
Ave Regina, Hob XXIIIb:3
Responsoria de Venerabili, Hob. XXIIIc:4a-d
Responsorium ad absolutionem "Libera me", Hob XXIIb:1
Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:1

Q



That doesn't surprise me at all!  A quick review at Amazon US has shown that only 4 cds were released here in separate editions.  They also have the box titled as  The Six Late Masses rather than The Complete Masses.   ::)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Bunny on April 01, 2009, 11:21:51 AM
After going through all of my cds, I find that I already have the cd pictured below which seems to have much of the same content as CD 5 of the original Brilliant Classics set, as well as the original pressings of three other CDs containing masses as well as Weil's recording of die Schopfung.  I guess this means that I may not be buying the reissue. :)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BwWwxGb9L._SS500_.jpg) 
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2009, 12:48:54 PM
Well, I have the Benelux Brilliant set, thus not overly concerned (for once) bout being left out of it all!  :)

Along with the Hickox "Black Box" Complete Masses and the Gardiner "6 Great Masses" set, I can honestly say that my desires in this direction are completely fulfilled! I don't compare amongst them, I simply enjoy the multiple merits of each.  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 01, 2009, 03:25:05 PM
OK - Guys & Gals - I own a LOT of Haydn's instrumental music, but just the usual of his choral/vocal output - concerning the Masses, I have the 3-CD set shown below w/ Gardiner - should I consider another option and/or some additional purchases; as usual, appears that Hadyn wrote so much that one cannot attempt to own everything! Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518NE7YFXJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2009, 05:11:57 PM
OK - Guys & Gals - I own a LOT of Haydn's instrumental music, but just the usual of his choral/vocal output - concerning the Masses, I have the 3-CD set shown below w/ Gardiner - should I consider another option and/or some additional purchases; as usual, appears that Hadyn wrote so much that one cannot attempt to own everything! Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518NE7YFXJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Actually, the Hickox DOES have everything, having 3 more disks than the Weil. And Collegium Musicum 90 is a fine band. This box is 5 star rated just about everywhere, and I was very satisfied with it (and the Gardiner) until I got the Weil, which as I say, didn't replace the Hickox for me, it just made a very fine option when I want a different take. :)

8)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Valentino on April 02, 2009, 02:01:07 PM
I bought the Harnoncourt set with Concentus Musicus Wien and the Arnold Schoenberg Chor about a month ago. Splendid stuff, and boys choir free too!  8)
Available with two covers these days:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y6Loy5xDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.warnerclassicsandjazz.com/thumb_image.php?bc=0825646961207&size=239)

Of course It's got only four missæ on it, but there are other gems on it too:

Missa in tempore belli, Hob.XXII:9 “Paukenmesse”Composer Joseph Haydn
Salve Regina, Hob.XXIIIb:2Composer Joseph Haydn
Missa in angustiis, Hob.XXII:11 “Nelsonmesse”Composer Joseph Haydn
Te Deum, Hob.XXIIIc:2Composer Joseph Haydn
Missa, Hob.XXII:14 “Harmoniemesse”Composer Joseph Haydn
Cantata “Qual dubbio ormai”, Hob.XXIVa:4Composer Joseph Haydn
Te Deum, Hob.XXIIIc:1Composer Joseph Haydn
Stabat Mater, Hob.XXbisComposer Joseph Haydn
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze, Hob.XX:2Composer Joseph Haydn
Missa, Hob.XXII:13 “Schöpfungsmesse”Composer Joseph Haydn

Magnificat, D486Composer Franz Schubert
Intende voci, D963Composer Franz Schubert


Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 02, 2009, 06:24:03 PM
I just wanna pop in real quick to give the thumbs-up to Hickox's set of the Haydn masses.  You get decent period instrument performances of all the masses and lots of Haydn's other sacred music in one handy-dandy box set.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61DPKJNAX9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Mass-Stephen-Varcoe/dp/B000LC4WTW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238725389&sr=1-2)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Bunny on April 02, 2009, 08:43:48 PM
Well, I have the Benelux Brilliant set, thus not overly concerned (for once) bout being left out of it all!  :)

Along with the Hickox "Black Box" Complete Masses and the Gardiner "6 Great Masses" set, I can honestly say that my desires in this direction are completely fulfilled! I don't compare amongst them, I simply enjoy the multiple merits of each.  0:)

8)

Yes, I've got that Gardiner box as well as Harnoncourt's recordings of Die Schöpfung and Die sieben letzen Worte."  Perhaps I should consider the Hickox box set, but I'm hoping that Paul McCreesh will do more of the masses.  His Creation is really something. 
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Gabriel on April 03, 2009, 03:08:36 PM
The Harnoncourt recording of Haydn's second Te Deum is simply brilliant. About Weil's recordings, I haven't listened to them all, but the beautiful voice of Ann Monoyios is something that I will never forget. I haven't listened to Weil's Die Schöpfung, so I'd be very glad if somebody could express some comments.

I just wanna pop in real quick to give the thumbs-up to Hickox's set of the Haydn masses.  You get decent period instrument performances of all the masses and lots of Haydn's other sacred music in one handy-dandy box set.

Hickox's cycle of Haydn's masses is beautifully performed and has a great sound. I'm sorry, Sorin, but I think that "decent" is a bit pejorative for those excellent recordings. :)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Harry on April 03, 2009, 11:36:35 PM
I just wanna pop in real quick to give the thumbs-up to Hickox's set of the Haydn masses.  You get decent period instrument performances of all the masses and lots of Haydn's other sacred music in one handy-dandy box set.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61DPKJNAX9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Mass-Stephen-Varcoe/dp/B000LC4WTW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238725389&sr=1-2)

I would go even further and say that these performances are insensitive, neglecting the finer details, very loud in expression, with over vibrant soprano's that have no place in a authentic performance.
I had the set and gave it away to someone that is not bothered by it. It was a revelation to hear the version by Bruno Weil.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2009, 06:07:03 AM
I would go even further and say that these performances are insensitive, neglecting the finer details, very loud in expression, with over vibrant soprano's that have no place in a authentic performance.
I had the set and gave it away to someone that is not bothered by it. It was a revelation to hear the version by Bruno Weil.

Harry - I've been reviewing these mass options for the last several days w/ the 'renewal' of this thread; now, I would really like to obtain the Weil box set - but was interested in your 'negative' comments on the versions w/ Hickox, despite others liking his interpretations.  There was also a 'scathing' 1* review on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Mass-Stephen-Varcoe/dp/B000LC4WTW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238853325&sr=1-2) that is not that well written but seems to raise some of the issues you mentioned; so, I guess that a little patience and hope that the Weil set will miraculously reappear?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Que on April 04, 2009, 06:22:25 AM
Harry - I've been reviewing these mass options for the last several days w/ the 'renewal' of this thread; now, I would really like to obtain the Weil box set - but was interested in your 'negative' comments on the versions w/ Hickox, despite others liking his interpretations.  There was also a 'scathing' 1* review on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Mass-Stephen-Varcoe/dp/B000LC4WTW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238853325&sr=1-2) that is not that well written but seems to raise some of the issues you mentioned; so, I guess that a little patience and hope that the Weil set will miraculously reappear?  Dave  :)

The Weil set will reappear - see page 1 of this thread. But you'll have to buy the disc with the "Little Organ Mass" seperately, since it's not included (see post by Bunny), and the Weil set has not everything - Hickox has.

I tried the Hickox set when looking for a recording and found the playing as well as the singing unidiomatic, rather un-Haydn. Now, I often have reservations concerning British choruses in Germanic repertoire but unfortunately this was no exception. This is simply not the way this music has to be sung.

Q
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 04, 2009, 09:05:57 PM
I would go even further and say that these performances are insensitive, neglecting the finer details, very loud in expression, with over vibrant soprano's that have no place in a authentic performance.
I had the set and gave it away to someone that is not bothered by it. It was a revelation to hear the version by Bruno Weil.
I'm not a big fan of Hickox's approach here either, but I wouldn't say they're that bad!  I thought he did quite well with the earlier masses, especially No. 5.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2009, 09:00:40 AM
Merry Christmas to all!  :)

Today I have finished this superb set:

Haydn – Missen (compleet)
Tölzer Knabenchor
Tafelmusik
Bruno Weil
Recording: 1992-1996
Producer: Wolf Erichson
5 CD box
Brilliant Classics
All tracks licensed from Sony Music Benelux 

This Bruno Weil set is the most idiomatic sacred Haydn that I have heard ever. It conveys all that feeling of intimacy and self-confidence that I always want to be embodied in Haydn… I stress this point because my principal quibble about Hickox is certain “monumental” approach - a kind of “massivity”- that, finally, it is detrimental to his performances.

However, one point called my attention. This 5-CD set is presented by Brilliant under the title “Haydn / Missen (compleet)”, but it is far to be complete because it only includes the six late masses (Hob. XXII:9-14), composed between 1796-1802, and two earlier masses (Hob. XXII: 2 & 7). In short, six masses are missed here, but included in the Hickox’s complete mass edition. Additionaly, this year Sony reissued (4-CD set) the six late masses, not including the Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2, the Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") and the remaining pieces included in the CD5 of the Brilliant set.

Just to clarify this point -the information on internet is a little bit elusive about it- I have copied the works included in the Brilliant set (including a lot of wonderful "no-masses" sacred works):

CD1
- Missa, Hob. XXII:12
“Theresa Mass” Theresienmesse in B-flat major

- Missa in angustiis, Hob. XXII:11
“Nelson Mass” Nelsonmesse in D minor


CD2
- Missa in tempore belli Hob. XXII:9
Paukemesse “Mass in Time of War” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ


- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:2 for soloists, strings and concerted organ

- Motetto “O Coelitum beati”, Hob. XXIIIa: G9 for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD3
- Missa Nr. 11 “Schöpfungsmesse”
Hob. XXII:13 (1801) für Soli, Chor und Orchester


- Missa Nr. 12 “Harmoniemesse”
Hob. XXII:14 (1802) für Soli, Chor und Orchester


CD4
- Missa Sancti Bernardi de Offida, Hob. XXII:10
“Heiligmesse” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ


- Mare Clausum, Hob. XXIVa:9 (Fragment)
For Bass, Five-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetto “Insanae et vanae curae”, Hob. XXI:13c for Four-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetti de Venerabili Sacramento, Hob. XXIIIc:5 a-d for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Te Deum for the Empress Marie Therese, Hob. XXIIIc:2 for Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD5
- Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2 (Fragment/Frammento) for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Offertorium "Non nobis, Domine", Hob. XXIIIa:1 for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Ave Regina, Hob XXIIIb:3 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Responsoria de Venerabili, Hob. XXIIIc:4a-d for Chorus, Strings, Two Horns and Basso continuo

- Responsorium ad absolutionem "Libera me", Hob XXIIb:1 for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:1 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo


 :)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2009, 09:10:17 AM
And to you, Antoine.

Yes, I have both of the sets in question, and I agree with your assessment of the idiomatic quality to the Weil performances. They unquestionably sound more like chamber music than the Hickox versions do, although I rather do like the Hickox, with maybe a question or two about the singing. Both of them sound more intimate than the Gardiner in any case. I would have hoped that the Weil set had all the earlier works rather than all the late ones, but you take what you can get and be happy. And I was delighted to be blessed with this "Benelux Only" version. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra del Teatro Carlo Felice di Genova \ Massimo Quarta - Paganini Concerto #1 in d for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro maestro

That's right, Paganini! :D
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2009, 09:29:50 AM
And I was delighted to be blessed with this "Benelux Only" version. :)

Me too, Gurn.  :) And, certainly, I won’t the Hickox’s set out. Although, after your words, I will probably avoid the Gardiner’s set.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2009, 09:34:36 AM
Me too, Gurn.  :) And, certainly, I won’t the Hickox’s set out. Although, after your words, I will probably avoid the Gardiner’s set.

Well, don't think that the Gardiner is bad, as such, it is just that it sounds more like it is performed in St Stephen's in Vienna than in the little chapel at Esterhaza. Lovely playing and singing though. I just feel the authenticity of a chamber performance is more appropriate. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra del Teatro Carlo Felice di Genova \ Massimo Quarta - Paganini Concerto #6 in e for Violin 1st mvmt - Risoluto
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Franco on December 25, 2009, 09:36:32 AM
I have Wishlisted this Haydn Masses set:

HAYDN, J.: Masses (Complete) (Trinity Choir, Rebel Baroque Orchestra, Burdick, Glover) (8 CD Box set) (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.508009)


Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 25, 2009, 09:48:31 AM
Hmmm - I could use some more of Joe's Masses!  Just own the 3-CD Gardiner box, which I do enjoy (cheap buy when I use to belong to the BMG Club) - the Brilliant box looks good w/ 5 discs - I've read some 'mixed' feelings about the singing & BIGNESS of the Hickox performances, but 8 discs, and I do own a number of Hickox boxes of other composers.

Any comments on the 8-disc offering by Naxos attached?  Thanks all -  :)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 25, 2009, 07:58:56 PM
By all means, don't miss on the 1766-73 Missa Cellensis (the so-called St-Cecilia Mass). It's anything but 'early' Haydn. By far the longest of Haydn's masses (the Gloria only lasts 30 minutes), it's in the 'missa solemnis' genre with a very elaborate musical treatment. It is also by far Haydn's most 'austrian' choral work - rustic, closer to the country than the city, with a simple devotional quality. It's also brimming with gorgeous tunes and Haydn's trademark musical surprises.

Unfortunately it's not included in the Gardiner, Harnoncourt or Weill sets, so if one goes for those, you'll never get to know that wonderful work. Hickox has included it in his traversal, and there's a couple of very good individual versions. Jochum (DG) is wonderful. A relaxed, immensely affectionate yet powerful treatment (BRSO) with great soloists. My favourite is the Gerhard Wilhelm mid-seventies Electrola set reissued by EMI on a budget twofer. I've had that on lp  (and now on cd) for over 30 years. It's one of those productions that disarms criticism and makes one bask in the music. Sprightly yet comfortable, intimate yet buoyantly extraverted in the right places. I'm not sure if it's HIP. It sounds like those late sixties' early seventies' Collegium Aureum producitons, complete with boy's choir. The sound is spledidly airy, spacious yet warm.

Among older versions of Haydn masses, I love Ferencsik's  Nelson Mass and Kubelik's Missa in tempore belli. both have a kind of 'authentic' flavour to them that sounds sui generis. Compared to that, a lot of later productions can safely be passed.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 26, 2009, 09:09:30 AM
My favourite is the Gerhard Wilhelm mid-seventies Electrola set reissued by EMI on a budget twofer. I've had that on lp  (and now on cd) for over 30 years. It's one of those productions that disarms criticism and makes one bask in the music. Sprightly yet comfortable, intimate yet buoyantly extraverted in the right places. I'm not sure if it's HIP. It sounds like those late sixties' early seventies' Collegium Aureum producitons, complete with boy's choir. The sound is spledidly airy, spacious yet warm.

It looks enticing, Lilas; thanks for the info.

I currently have two versions of this mass: Hickox -fine performance here- and Bernius, included in the Haydn big box, not too much to my taste. 
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: DarkAngel on December 28, 2009, 10:15:37 AM
Antoine
I followed your lead on the Tafelmusik Masses...............
At Amazon USA they sell a very cheap 4CD boxset by Sony Vivarte label for $12 new, can't pass that up  :)

Sonic
This is a nice middle step instead of buying big Naxos boxset

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cNc1-do%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 28, 2009, 03:43:23 PM

Sonic
This is a nice middle step instead of buying big Naxos boxset

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cNc1-do%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

DA - thanks for the recommendation; just checked the listings for that great bargain set, and a lot of overlap w/ my Gardiner 3-CDs of 6 'late' masses (definition of 'late' Haydn masses seems to vary) - I guess that André has encouraged me to add some of the 'earlier' masses - the Naxos box received a great review HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Nov09/Haydn_Masses_8508009.htm), even a 'Recording of the Month' - hard for me to believe from Trinity Church and a bunch of unknowns - would love to hear from those who may have this Naxos offering - but my 'ears' are wide open to suggestions & comments!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: The new erato on December 28, 2009, 03:49:23 PM
By all means, don't miss on the 1766-73 Missa Cellensis (the so-called St-Cecilia Mass). It's anything but 'early' Haydn. By far the longest of Haydn's masses (the Gloria only lasts 30 minutes), it's in the 'missa solemnis' genre with a very elaborate musical treatment. It is also by far Haydn's most 'austrian' choral work - rustic, closer to the country than the city, with a simple devotional quality. It's also brimming with gorgeous tunes and Haydn's trademark musical surprises.

Have you heard Acadamy of Ancient Music under Simon Preston? A double LP on L'Oiseau-Lyre opened my ears to Haydn's masses many years ago.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 28, 2009, 05:00:52 PM
Have you heard Acadamy of Ancient Music under Simon Preston? A double LP on L'Oiseau-Lyre opened my ears to Haydn's masses many years ago.

Yes I have, and it's good, but I feel it falls a bit short. Slightly too fast and 'straight', with little emotion.  I love the way Jochum and Wilhelm fill the expanses of their respective haydnian vision at an unhurried, yet genuinely ambling pace.Gemütlichkeit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gem%C3%BCtlichkeit) (as per this Wiki definition) exemplifies the character of the Wilhelm version. It is airy, almost airborne (the Kyrie). Jochum has a more solemn and somber approach (aided by the large orchestra). Both have excellent soloists, but by and large Wilhelm's roster is unexcelled. Another thing I don't really like with Preston is the 'white' tone of the boys' choir. Wilhelm's Stuttgarter Hymnus Knabenchor is more to my taste.

There's also a Kubelik version (Orfeo) that for some is unexcelled - I haven't heard it. It should be noted that Jo van Immerseel and Musica Eterna have recorded the Missa Cellensis, and are poised to do the whole corpus.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 14, 2010, 07:11:25 PM
Any comments on the 8-disc offering by Naxos attached?  Thanks all -  :)

I know, probably I didn't need another set of these masses, but who will cast the first stone here?  :)

I purchased this set today in a local store. Although I have just listened to the CD2 - Missa Cellensis in honorem BVM, “Cäcilienmesse” - two times - I can say that at least this disc is a delightfully beautiful recording: excellent voices (soloists and chorus), some kind of general lightness, great balance between instruments and voices, irreproachable acoustics and, especially, that marvelous Haydnian joie de vivre. We will see how this story follows.  :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2010, 07:26:36 PM
I know, probably I didn't need another set of these masses, but who will cast the first stone here?  :)

I purchased this set today in a local store. Although I have just listened to the CD2 - Missa Cellensis in honorem BVM, “Cäcilienmesse” - two times - I can say that at least this disc is a delightfully beautiful recording: excellent voices (soloists and chorus), some kind of general lightness, great balance between instruments and voices, irreproachable acoustics and, especially, that marvelous Haydnian joie de vivre. We will see how this story follows.  :)

Antoine - I'm about 80% committed to buying this Naxos box of the Haydn Masses - the reviews have been excellent (w/ just a few negative but minor comments) - will look forward to your future listening comments - if you are positive about the rest of this project, then will likely be a definite purchase for me!  Hope to hear from you soon - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Franco on January 15, 2010, 07:03:13 AM
I first came to hear of the Naxos set from an article in The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html)  about the firing of the long time director, Owen Burdock.  They barred him from completing the Haydn cycle he had beeen doing for years, so the last few masses may suffer as a result.

I plan on buying it.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 24, 2010, 09:05:45 AM
I first came to hear of the Naxos set from an article in The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html)  about the firing of the long time director, Owen Burdock.  They barred him from completing the Haydn cycle he had beeen doing for years, so the last few masses may suffer as a result.

I plan on buying it.

Interesting link, Franco: A kind of "classical" E! True Hollywood Story.

The next paragraph called my attention: "Ms. Covo said that while she stood behind the recordings’ high quality, the presence of two conductors “has already marginalized” them and broken the musical continuity. Mr. Burdick, for example, chose to use an Italianate pronunciation of the Latin texts; Ms. Glover opted for a Germanic pronunciation”.

I have yet not heard the works conducted by Jane Glover, but I have noticed that in all CDs conducted by Burdick the soloists and chorus sing “Kyrie Eleeson” and not “Kyrie Eleison” -as is usual-, which is a little bit disconcerting.

 :)
 


Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 24, 2010, 11:54:16 AM
Latin pronunciation is sometimes a stumbling block. I don't like the germanic way, because that's not how I learned it at school or hear when it's sung by local choirs. But I have to assume it's what the composers heard and had in mind. Is it really so important that a unified way be chosen for the Haydn Masses, I have no idea - after all, we listen to them ont at a time, non?.

The most peculiar pronunciation I've heard is the old french one. That used in many composers' Grands Motets for example (17th-18th century). THAT takes a lot getting used to. I've never heard it used in classical or romantic music (Berlioz Requiem or Te Deum for example, or Gounod's St-Cecilia Mass). Not even from french forces of the 50s. I assume it's a relic. I wonder what basis HIP pracitioners have to figure how it was done back then?
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Elgarian on January 24, 2010, 02:24:46 PM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3378.0;attach=23129;image)

I bought one of the Naxos boxes a few days ago and although so far I've listened only to the last two CDs in the set (I decided to work through backwards), already the purchase has justified itself in terms of delight/price ratio. I don't care about any discrepancies I may discover in the pronunciation of 'Eleison', but I do very much like the fresh and vivid musicality of what I've been hearing. I'd like also to put in a good word for the presentation. At £25 for 8 CDs I'd have forgiven a bit of scrimping on the packaging, but the box is solid and attractive, the discs are in attractive card slipcases, and there's a good-looking informative booklet included.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 06:33:16 AM
Merry Christmas to all!  :)

Today I have finished this superb set:

Haydn – Missen (compleet)
Tölzer Knabenchor
Tafelmusik
Bruno Weil
Recording: 1992-1996
Producer: Wolf Erichson
5 CD box
Brilliant Classics
All tracks licensed from Sony Music Benelux 

This Bruno Weil set is the most idiomatic sacred Haydn that I have heard ever. It conveys all that feeling of intimacy and self-confidence that I always want to be embodied in Haydn… I stress this point because my principal quibble about Hickox is certain “monumental” approach - a kind of “massivity”- that, finally, it is detrimental to his performances.

However, one point called my attention. This 5-CD set is presented by Brilliant under the title “Haydn / Missen (compleet)”, but it is far to be complete because it only includes the six late masses (Hob. XXII:9-14), composed between 1796-1802, and two earlier masses (Hob. XXII: 2 & 7). In short, six masses are missed here, but included in the Hickox’s complete mass edition. Additionaly, this year Sony reissued (4-CD set) the six late masses, not including the Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2, the Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") and the remaining pieces included in the CD5 of the Brilliant set.

Just to clarify this point -the information on internet is a little bit elusive about it- I have copied the works included in the Brilliant set (including a lot of wonderful "no-masses" sacred works):

CD1
- Missa, Hob. XXII:12
“Theresa Mass” Theresienmesse in B-flat major

- Missa in angustiis, Hob. XXII:11
“Nelson Mass” Nelsonmesse in D minor


CD2
- Missa in tempore belli Hob. XXII:9
Paukemesse “Mass in Time of War” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ


- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:2 for soloists, strings and concerted organ

- Motetto “O Coelitum beati”, Hob. XXIIIa: G9 for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD3
- Missa Nr. 11 “Schöpfungsmesse”
Hob. XXII:13 (1801) für Soli, Chor und Orchester


- Missa Nr. 12 “Harmoniemesse”
Hob. XXII:14 (1802) für Soli, Chor und Orchester


CD4
- Missa Sancti Bernardi de Offida, Hob. XXII:10
“Heiligmesse” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ


- Mare Clausum, Hob. XXIVa:9 (Fragment)
For Bass, Five-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetto “Insanae et vanae curae”, Hob. XXI:13c for Four-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetti de Venerabili Sacramento, Hob. XXIIIc:5 a-d for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Te Deum for the Empress Marie Therese, Hob. XXIIIc:2 for Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD5
- Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2 (Fragment/Frammento) for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Offertorium "Non nobis, Domine", Hob. XXIIIa:1 for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Ave Regina, Hob XXIIIb:3 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Responsoria de Venerabili, Hob. XXIIIc:4a-d for Chorus, Strings, Two Horns and Basso continuo

- Responsorium ad absolutionem "Libera me", Hob XXIIb:1 for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:1 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo


 :)

I'm starting my Xmas Eve with some late masses of Haydn, and for the first time I listening to the Bruno Weil, based on the thoughts I have read on this board.

I am on my third listen to the Theresienmesse, and it seems I can't get farther because this performance is just SO GOOD. I'm loving the more intimate sound! This is the set I've been looking for!

 8)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Opus106 on November 28, 2012, 07:35:41 AM
One more CD than the Brilliant set. (Or maybe it's just the 4CD + 2 CDs' worth of Creation. Still missing that one CD from Brilliant? Antoine 'Eric' Shumway has notes in the previous page.)



Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: OrchestralNut on November 28, 2012, 07:39:32 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3378.0;attach=23129;image)

I bought one of the Naxos boxes a few days ago and although so far I've listened only to the last two CDs in the set (I decided to work through backwards), already the purchase has justified itself in terms of delight/price ratio. I don't care about any discrepancies I may discover in the pronunciation of 'Eleison', but I do very much like the fresh and vivid musicality of what I've been hearing. I'd like also to put in a good word for the presentation. At £25 for 8 CDs I'd have forgiven a bit of scrimping on the packaging, but the box is solid and attractive, the discs are in attractive card slipcases, and there's a good-looking informative booklet included.

Hmmm......I may have to add this one to the wish list.  I thoroughly enjoyed the similarly packaged Naxos box set of Haydn's complete string quartets (Kodaly Qt.)  Terrific, attractive box set with a huge booklet!  :)  Oh, and the music just happens to be top notch as well!!  8)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 28, 2012, 07:53:06 AM
One more CD than the Brilliant set. (Or maybe it's just the 4CD + 2 CDs' worth of Creation. Still missing that one CD from Brilliant? Antoine 'Eric' Shumway has notes in the previous page.)


Lovely, Nav!
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2012, 09:04:48 AM
One more CD than the Brilliant set. (Or maybe it's just the 4CD + 2 CDs' worth of Creation. Still missing that one CD from Brilliant? Antoine 'Eric' Shumway has notes in the previous page.)



Yes, that will be the 4 disks with the last 6 Great Masses and the 2 disks of The Creation. The earlier masses that Brilliant leased from Sony to issue in the Benelux countries have still not been made available elsewhere, AFAIK.  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Wakefield on November 28, 2012, 12:04:26 PM
Yes, that will be the 4 disks with the last 6 Great Masses and the 2 disks of The Creation. The earlier masses that Brilliant leased from Sony to issue in the Benelux countries have still not been made available elsewhere, AFAIK.  :-\

8)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421925462.jpg)

Currently, it's available at JPC, Gurnatron.

EUR 7,99 is the asking price.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Messen-Nr-27910-14/hnum/4558963
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: StLukesguildOhio on November 29, 2012, 04:02:15 PM
Haydn's masses have long been among my favorite works by the composer, nevertheless I have yet to set about picking up any complete set, but rather went about collecting piecemeal:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6146bT-etUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512rCVuq1mL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wbrK3X7wL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cn46j6OIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SBDMqn86L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TgvtpJ8oL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I ended up picking up a slew of individual Hickox discs... seduced (as a huge William Blake fan) by the covers:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xeR-LzhkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157hKjcEnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BboMWoXUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: André on June 18, 2017, 09:53:23 AM
I've been on a Paukenmesse binge lately. IMHO it's one of Haydn's greatest works in the genre, along with the Nelsonmesse - and one of his best works tout court.

I have heard many different versions over the years. Last month I purchased the Harnoncourt Concentus Musicus Wien on Teldec. Their Nelson Mass is wonderful. Alas, this Paukenmesse is a travesty. I have no idea what may have possessed Harnoncourt to imagine suct an emasculated, tired and prissy account of that, one of Haydn's biggest and boldest choral works. 4/10

For a comparison I went to Gardiner's version. Immediately one feels more spring in the rythms, more verve in the playing. And also the trademark Gardiner defects: rythmic rigidity (it's all yippity yap, with little relaxation), explosive trumpets-and-drum bursts that sound like so many loud high-pitched farts. The orchestral balances are good otherwise, and the singing very assured (but not warm by any stretch of the imagination). 7/10

Then, on to the Staatskapelle Dresden under Marriner on EMI. Now, that is something ! Every attribute of Haydn's music is there, in spades: warmth, depth and emotion allied to sprightliness and wit. Of course this is a totally different sound picture: it's big, reverberant, with beautifully articulated strings (in suitably large number), assertive drums and brass. And that cello solo in the Qui tollis is to die for: inky, 85% cocoa dark chocolate, warm and hugely expressive. Excellent soloists. The chorus could have been more clearly miked, but that reminds one that this could have come from a church acoustic. Wonderful ! 9/10.

Hickox's version on Chandos has lots going for it, especially in terms of sound: big, resonant and clear. The cello solo is aristocratically played, really beautiful. Solo voices are splendid. The one thing that started to make me think twice is the meager string sound. They don't sound like they were more than 8-10 strong, if that. As the work progresses, this becomes an irritation. Definitely a miscalculation. 7/10

Bruno Weil's version on Sony has pretty much the same qualities and defects as the Hickox. Here I think that the strings are a mere quartet. That simply won't do. It's totally wrong to play late Haydn with such a meagre string complement. Other than that, Weil and his forces never put a foot wrong and do quite well. 6/10.

Coming up next: Bernstein's first version, on Sony. If I can put my hands on it, the Kubelik will follow. I used to have it on cassette. IIRC it's a wonderfully grand interpretation.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 18, 2017, 10:27:12 AM
For a comparison I went to Gardiner's version. Immediately one feels more spring in the rythms, more verve in the playing. And also the trademark Gardiner defects: rythmic rigidity (it's all yippity yap, with little relaxation), explosive trumpets-and-drum bursts that sound like so many loud high-pitched farts. The orchestral balances are good otherwise, and the singing very assured (but not warm by any stretch of the imagination). 7/10

Hickox's version on Chandos has lots going for it, especially in terms of sound: big, resonant and clear. The cello solo is aristocratically played, really beautiful. Solo voices are splendid. The one thing that started to make me think twice is the meager string sound. They don't sound like they were more than 8-10 strong, if that. As the work progresses, this becomes an irritation. Definitely a miscalculation. 7/10

I agree with your Hickox rating - his recordings of all of Haydn's masses are truly beautiful. However, I don't agree that Gardiner has "defects". I hear solid, dedicated performances enlighten to the spiritual aspects of the music to a greater degree than Hickox, even (gorgeous though he is).
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: KevinP on June 20, 2017, 04:17:31 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71IrRFsmbRL._SL1405_.jpg)

I have this set, which I haven't seen pictured in this thread , though there are some broken links.

Not a huge fan of his masses, nor, to be honest, of Haydn himself (don't hate him, just don't reach for his CDs very often), so this is enough for me.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2017, 04:22:33 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71IrRFsmbRL._SL1405_.jpg)

I have this set, which I haven't seen pictured in this thread , though there are some broken links.

Not a huge fan of his masses, nor, to be honest, of Haydn himself (don't hate him, just don't reach for his CDs very often), so this is enough for me.

The singing is excellent on that set. Playing too, for that matter. :)

8)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: André on June 23, 2017, 12:31:36 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/712Gp3lo81L._SX522_.jpg)

Bernstein's Haydn is among the best. The stark, almost terrifying account of thePaukenmesse though is sabotaged by the raucous, swampy, echoey sound (in Washington Cathedral). I wonder if something dire was going on in Washington at the time (January 1973) ? Bernstein truly sounds angry.

Curiously, the orchestra remains unnamed in all the sources I checked. And what was Bernstein doing in Washington at the time ? This seems like a one off, not really intended to be part of a collection of choral Haydn works. In any case, it's certainly one of the better interpretations, the only one that I know that takes the "war" element that far afield.

Kubelik is on its way  :).
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: kishnevi on June 23, 2017, 03:17:12 PM
I had presumed the NYPO was the orchestra. That at least is the inference from the back cover: the only mass not with the NYPO was the Theresienmese.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81WWlbvVSBL.jpg)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: André on June 23, 2017, 04:57:03 PM
That's not the case. The booklet notes state the recordings details (players, date, venue) for all the performances. The New York Phil is specified for all of them, except the Theresienmesse (LSO) and the Paukenmesse, where the laconic info is "orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein". They are also the only performances recorded outside of New York.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: kishnevi on June 23, 2017, 05:04:55 PM
That's not the case. The booklet notes state the recordings details (players, date, venue) for all the performances. The New York Phil is specified for all of them, except the Theresienmesse (LSO) and the Paukenmesse, where the laconic info is "orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein". They are also the only performances recorded outside of New York.

Hmmm...pickup orchestra?
Jan 73 was Nixon's second inaugural. He may have been in town for that, although given Lenny's politics, I doubt he was thrilled.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: kishnevi on June 23, 2017, 05:10:12 PM
The power of Google!
Search for Bernstein and Nixon, and lo!

http://people.howstuffworks.com/leonard-bernstein-richard-nixon-antiinaugural-concert-1973.htm
Quote
But at the exact same time a free and unofficial inauguration concert at the National Cathedral took place thanks to legendary conductor Leonard Bernstein. He led "A Concert for Peace," which became widely known as the "Anti-inaugural Concert."

Berstein's free "counter-concert" drew thousands of people to a venue that would only hold 3,000. Undeterred, an additional 12,000 to 15,000 people stood in the dark outside the National Cathedral as a soft rain fell. At the identical hour in which Nixon's official inaugural concert was being performed at the Kennedy Center, Bernstein closed the concert with Joseph Haydn's "Mass in Time of War," which was written in 1796, the same year Napoleon's armies overtook Austrian troops in Italy.
Quote
Bernstein enlisted an orchestra comprising local musicians, many of whom were members in the National Symphony Orchestra, as well a chorus of 125 volunteers led by local director Norman Scribner. Bernstein and the performers dressed not in formal attire, but in street clothes — a choice that drew applause from the audience.



Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: André on June 23, 2017, 05:22:31 PM
Certainly a pickup orchestra of local professionals. The original LP cover:

(https://img.discogs.com/cxa84qt2cl11IMM0qx7B_Rtr1zs=/fit-in/600x608/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8891197-1470992799-4928.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: André on June 23, 2017, 05:27:53 PM
The power of Google!
Search for Bernstein and Nixon, and lo!

http://people.howstuffworks.com/leonard-bernstein-richard-nixon-antiinaugural-concert-1973.htm

Splendid ! Thanks for these details !
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Mahlerian on June 23, 2017, 06:54:01 PM
The power of Google!
Search for Bernstein and Nixon, and lo!

http://people.howstuffworks.com/leonard-bernstein-richard-nixon-antiinaugural-concert-1973.htm

Fascinating stuff.  I've known that recording for a few years now, but nothing about its provenance.  Thanks for looking it up!
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: Daverz on June 23, 2017, 07:00:34 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/712Gp3lo81L._SX522_.jpg)


The Theresienmesse in this set is beautiful.
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: André on July 01, 2017, 11:04:10 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81h4VviCDoL._SX522_.jpg)

The Cäecilienmesse, or Missa Sanctae Caecilie, or St Cecilia Mass, aka Missa Cellensis # 1 is Haydn's most elaborate setting of the catholic mass. It is my favourite Haydn Mass, although the Nelson Messeruns it very close.

This interpretation is also my favourite. It is a bit on the slow side in terms of timings (73 minutes vs most others' average of 67 minutes). It is anything but slow in feeling, though. It floats and breathes whereas others sound hurried and earthbound. Soloists are superb, ideal in fact in the case of the tenor and bass. Superb contribution from the children's chorus. The conducting is ideally in sync with the spiritual and aesthetic aspects of this typical austrian late baroque music. Excellent sound, vintage 1969.

Also available as a 2 disc budget set:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JiyxOAERL.jpg)
Title: Re: Haydn's Masses
Post by: André on July 08, 2017, 10:50:16 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51MXHLdY1WL.jpg)

This set presents 3 masses Haydn composed at different times over his some 40 years as the Esterhazy household Music Master. They also happen to represent different genres of mass setting: the sprawling cantata-mass, the liturgic/symphonic synthesis perfected to an unprecedented degree by Haydn and the much more compact missa brevis in which different lines of the Gloria and Credo are sung at the same time (the Gloria is over in less than a minute!).

The first Missa Cellensis dates from 1768. There is a later mass by the same name. Both were composed to be performed at the Mariazeller Basilica, site of Austria's most important catholic pilgrimage (picture below). It was thought to be a mass composed in honour of St Cecilia, patron saint of musicians, but research has shown otherwise: the back cover of this 1959 Jochum performance refers to the work as the Cäcilien-Messe, Missa Sanctae Caeciliae and Cecilia Mass. The album notes however dispel that notion and correctly state that this designation is now obsolete.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Mariazell_-_Basilika1.JPG)

There are a dozen version of this beautiful work. Jochum's is a perfect example of a now outdated way to perform church music. There are basically 2 shades of dynamics: p and f/ff. No subtle nuances here, just a desire to present the music in a straightforward and very devotional manner. The long trill on the violin ritornello near the end of the Kyrie is presented twice in the same way. Compare with Gerhard Wilhelm's subtle shading (first time mf, then p) in the 1969 EMI recording, creating a beautiful echo effect. It's all a bit unsubtle under Jochum. But this is Cadillac music making, so there's a place for his classic interpretation. Soloists have very important and demanding parts, each requiring a soloist of the first order. Stader, Höffgen and Greindl are very operatic in style, displaying big, penetrating, boomy voices. Tenor Richard Holm has both the perfect voice and style and his is the performance I prefer. On the EMI set the singers are even better (esp. the inimitable Kurt Equiluz and Siegmund Nimsgern). Also, the chorus (with children) is more subtle yet no less expressive than the big Munich outfit. The recording too is more modern, in beautifully deep and transparent sound. The Wilhelm is the standard I judge others by (I know the Kubelik, Preston, Hickox and Rowicki).

Kubelik conducts the same Munich forces (BRSO and Chorus) in the thrilling Paukenmesse. The result is fresher, more direct, more dramatic too, as befits the 'new' genre Haydn was perfecting (composed in 1796, this is the 2nd of his series of masses composed in honour of Princess Maria Hermenegild's Name Day). Haydn composed 'symphonic movements' that were tailored to the liturgic text. The Gloria in these masses is about 8-11 minutes long, compared to 30-32 in the 1768 cantata-mass where every line becomes an aria or chorus. The economy of dramatic means in no way reduces the character and impact of these works. The Paukenmesse too has very important solo parts, taken here by excellent soloists. Soprano Elsie Morison (Mrs. Kubelik) has a light, not very penetrating voice, but she sings securely. Bass Karl-Christian Kohn is formidable in the profundo part of the Agnus Dei. One of the very best performances of the work, with an excellent presence of the organ.

The Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo (late 1770s) is also known as the Little Organ Mass (there is of course a "Great Organ Mass"). The title is for the concertante role of the organ in the Benedictus. Again, the orchestra is that of the Bayerischen Rundfunk, but not the choir: we are treated - quite rightly - to the delights of a boys' choir (the Regensburger Domspatzen) along with the Domchor. I have never seen the name of conductor Theobald Schrems before, but he navigates the waters superbly, letting us hear clearly every contrapuntal line yet imparting a beautiful flow to the proceedings. This modest mass is perfectly presented here. I didn't expect to find much in terms of musical sustenance, but I was wrong.