GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Discobole on February 19, 2012, 07:45:42 AM

Title: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Discobole on February 19, 2012, 07:45:42 AM
.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 19, 2012, 07:48:01 AM
Count me in.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: DavidW on February 19, 2012, 07:55:02 AM
Sounds fun count me in as well! :)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Opus106 on February 19, 2012, 07:56:27 AM
In. How long is the listening period?
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Opus106 on February 19, 2012, 08:37:01 AM
Thanks for your PM. I'll start listening tomorrow evening; it's 10 at night here and I've lined up other music. ;)

Great, informations sent to all three of you. The period of listening should be of a few days, but I'll wait until you all had time to decide...

Anyone can participate until the results are announced.

Participation may seem low now since it's a Sunday. I'll bet it'll pick up once others show up, especially fellow Bachaholics.

Quote
When you post your vote and commentaries, it would be better if other participants could read them only if they want, in case they don't want to be influenced. Is there a « spoiler » option in order to mask a part of the text ? I don't see it. Otherwise you might post these informations in small font size. Well, that's an idea, if you think it is not useful forget about it.

A spoiler tag isn't available. But one could use the [color] tag for the text. The lighter shade of post background has the hex code f0f4f7, while the darker e7eaef.

begin spoiler - highlight to see

Can you read this?

end spoiler
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: PaulSC on February 19, 2012, 09:05:14 AM
Please count me in!
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 19, 2012, 09:21:51 AM
Count me in as well! Looking forward to this! :D
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: PaulSC on February 19, 2012, 03:43:42 PM
In case anyone is interested, a score of this piece can be found at IMSLP

http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c/ce/IMSLP05509-Bach_-_BGA_-_BWV_714-740.pdf

(bwv 733 begins on page 79, based on the page numbers printed in the original document)

Interestingly, it appears this music is now generally attributed to Joseph Krebs rather than JS Bach.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Bulldog on February 19, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
I'm in also.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mszczuj on February 19, 2012, 05:10:12 PM
I'm rather sceptic about idea of blind listening.

Comparison of 12 version seems to me rather unreal.

I'm not prepared to value Bach organ music as i have only two listenings of it in about 15 years.

I even don't remember the piece.

And I have no time for it.

So. please. count me in...
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: DavidW on February 19, 2012, 06:30:19 PM
I've spent a big heap of time with these and this is what I think (highlight to see):


Favorites: 2, 6 and 8
2 has a sense of grandeur that I don't feel the others have, also it has the richest sound
6 is exhilarating, fresh speed makes it sound lively and the ornamentation is a perfect addition to complete the music
8 is not as slow as many, not as swift as 6 or 11 but is perfectly balanced

Almost: 3, 9, 12
These three are great but a little too slow, emphatic without sounding as deep as my favorites

Snoresville: 1, 4, 5, 7, 10
These are perfectly serviceable performances but I found them to be boring.

Least Favorite: 11
The ornamentation is inappropriate, excessive and poorly judged interfering with the pacing and the feel of the piece.  This performance simply butchered the music.  It is the only bad performance of the lot.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: PaulSC on February 19, 2012, 08:15:33 PM
I included the score in my first message ;)
The attribution to Krebs is quite an old idea which is not justified by anything else than the fact we have no autograph, but 2 copies by Krebs. But, actually, Krebs was Bach's copist at the time, so it's not really surprising that we should have copies by him. Actually, the only thing which is quite surely attributed to Krebs is the mistake in the title : this is not a fugue but a Fantasia on the Magnificat, and Krebs must have miread an abbreviation by Bach (which happenrd for BWV 651 too). The BWV 733 is obviously by Bach, its writing speaks for itself : at least this is what I think, what Peter Williams thinks and what most serious musicologists and musicians think... Only Youtube "generally attributes" it to Krebs ;)

Sorry to have dredged up an outdated view about the attribution. (I spotted the claim when looking up the score in an index at IMSLP, which I wouldn't have needed to do if I had read your opening post more carefully.) At any rate, thanks for the informative reply. I've spent a good chunk of time listening to the twelve versions and will post my assessments in a moment. First, I'll review that opening post again to make sure I go about this properly.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: PaulSC on February 19, 2012, 09:19:03 PM
Okay, here are my assessments, printed with font color = white:


I very much enjoyed spending time listening repeatedly to BWV 733. I have no trouble believing it is genuinely by Bach. My favorite moment in the piece is probably the return from A minor to F major via a tonicized subdominant near the end — the harmonic shift over a pedal A is unexpected and beautiful.

After comparing so many performances, I recognize one thing that can spoil a performance for me is registration choices that cause voices written in different octaves to sound in the same octave. Here are my particular most and least favorite recordings, with brief comments…

First place — recording 08
Relatively fast tempo makes this exciting, but it never feels rushed. Phrasing is sensitively handled. Registrations feel balanced. Detached playing at the quarter note level gives this a nice character.

Second place — recording 11
Very characterful playing. The staccato quarter notes and frequent ornamentation (a bit too much?) give this a playful quality that I find appealing even though I'm not sure it's “right” for the piece.

Third place — recording 06
This one comes in a little on the fast side, but the large-scale form is nicely shaped. I like the detached playing (even though I hate the detached eighth notes in recording 04, probably because they don't flow together at a much slower tempo of that recording).

–––

Second least favorite — recording 04
The slow tempo gives this a sluggish feel. I don't like the detached eighth notes at this tempo. The sound is rich but tends to feel bloated.

Very least favorite — recording 09
The playing here seems rushed and mechanical. Registration choices mix up octave relations among the voices. Some notes are clipped short just for the sake of facilitating changes of hand position.

Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Que on February 19, 2012, 10:36:11 PM
Please count me in! :)

Q
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: DavidW on February 20, 2012, 05:29:37 AM
Just a question to DavidW : I count your 3 favourites as 1st ex aequo, but if you want to put one 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd just say it (same thing behind : 4th ex aequo, etc.) :)

Oh those three are in order of preference, it happens to coincide with chronological order.  Highlight to see: #2 is first, #6 is second, #8 is third
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 20, 2012, 06:38:23 AM
Oh. This is going to be interesting. First, I don't know this piece. Second, I don't listen to much organ, though I like the instrument in general. Should be fun!!
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Opus106 on February 20, 2012, 06:43:31 AM
Oh. This is going to be interesting. First, I don't know this piece. Second, I don't listen to much organ, though I like the instrument in general. Should be fun!!

Have you read the comments already? (Just curious on how you're approaching things.)

While I don't know the piece, I can just about live on the repertoire for the rest of my life; but I don't like repeated listening. :( So this is probably the best opportunity to test the waters of this blind comparison business.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 20, 2012, 06:56:18 AM
Have you read the comments already? (Just curious on how you're approaching things.)

While I don't know the piece, I can just about live on the repertoire for the rest of my life; but I don't like repeated listening. :( So this is probably the best opportunity to test the waters of this blind comparison business.
By comments, you mean those who listened? No. I don't want to be biased. I will probably read the bit that was posted on the piece when I start listening. I think I will listen for quality of playing, dynamics, impact, style, tempo, and phrasing. But the one that moves me the most (connects with me) will be the winner. Figuring out why that is, well, that is not always so simple.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Opus106 on February 20, 2012, 07:05:41 AM
By comments, you mean those who listened?

Yep.

Quote
Figuring out why that is, well, that is not always so simple.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 20, 2012, 01:12:35 PM
Listening now, and really really enjoying it. Has been ages since I last visited Bach's organ works! Why?!!!

Back soon with my vote. :)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 20, 2012, 01:30:20 PM
Vote:

First place: no.6
A really thrilling performance, and what an amazing organ, absolutely ground-breaking when the pedals enter! Excellently shaped too, a very moving performance.

Second place: no.10
Beautiful sound at an excellent tempo which is very well controlled. Amazing organ... wow, those pedals.......

Third place: no.1
At a steady tempo, well expressed, and a beautiful organ.

Least favourite: 11. (for the ornaments which irritated me due to being completely unnecessary...)  
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mszczuj on February 20, 2012, 05:18:42 PM
Every listening change all, but there is some pattern, so:

I can't say I really like any of this interpretations.

I decided to prefer three interpretations where it seems to me phrasing is most naturally and adequate to spiritual situation given in words Magnificat anima mea Domini

So my 3rd favorite is No.4 - here phrasing is for me the best and religious inspiration most obvious. Alas, the slow tempo make it not so ecstatic as it ought to be.

My 2nd favorite is No.2 Here phrasing is mediocre but acceptable (from my point of view) but I like the way in which voices correspond one to another so it is some step toward ecstasy.

My favorite is No.11. I can't judge if the use of ornaments is proper, but I accept it, and find the very fact of using it appropriate. But this is the least finger exercising and the most musical interpretation - half way to ecstasy.

The worst is probaly No.6 which I find hysterical. And I dont like mechanical no.1, No 5, or No. 7.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: PaulSC on February 20, 2012, 05:43:24 PM
I was this close --> <-- to saying in my original commentary that a certain recording was likely to divide opinions. That recording has so far showed up in two “favorites” lists (including mine) and two “least favorites” lists.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mszczuj on February 21, 2012, 02:30:00 AM
I was this close --> <-- to saying in my original commentary that a certain recording was likely to divide opinions. That recording has so far showed up in two “favorites” lists (including mine) and two “least favorites” lists.

Well, probably some years ago the same recording you have pointed as one of your favorites and I have pointed as my least favorite would be my absolutely favorite.

But now I'm in phase "there are no good intepretation at all, all they play not music but notes, why they don't play Bach, Mozart, Beethoven with such subtlety of phrasing as they play when they perform Schubert."

And this is actually what I want. Good performance of Bach (mozar, Beethoven) should be similar in some aspect to Schubert or even to the German folk music played on zither.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: PaulSC on February 21, 2012, 08:59:35 AM
I think I understand what you're saying, although I hear more nuance than you do in the recording that made my “favorites” and your “least favorites.”

But I was actually referring to a different recording, which is on BOTH of our “favorites” lists, but is on the “least favorites” lists of the two other participants who have so far reported their impressions.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mszczuj on February 21, 2012, 10:51:17 AM
I think I understand what you're saying, although I hear more nuance than you do in the recording that made my “favorites” and your “least favorites.”

But I was actually referring to a different recording, which is on BOTH of our “favorites” lists, but is on the “least favorites” lists of the two other participants who have so far reported their impressions.

It is hard to speak about music when you can't point it.

Your 3rd favorite is my 12th favorite, But for another reason than a lack of nuances.

 My 3d favorite is your 11th favorite and this is the one - I'm absolutely  sure - which will be the worst in the voting.

I must repeat again that my impressions about all interpretations have been changing all the time. Dull playing was exciting next time. Fresh was mechanical. So my opinion is a kind of statistics on small numbers.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: PaulSC on February 21, 2012, 12:18:56 PM
(Indeed I do!)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mszczuj on February 21, 2012, 01:33:12 PM
(Indeed I do!)

 :o I am a moron! :o

Yes!

The only thing  I can say to explain myself is that I wrote it while studying the roofs of Venice on Wikimapia and Google Earth to find where the hell my wive had taken this picture in July 1996.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7041/6918300109_1400fa098e_m.jpg)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Opus106 on February 21, 2012, 09:18:12 PM
I'm sorry but I withdraw. The comparison listening just isn't for me, at least for now. But thanks for letting me participate. :)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2012, 09:07:51 AM
No problem at all.

The listening will stop tomorrow, thursday, at midnight (Paris) / 11pm (London) / 6pm (EST)... (If you need more time just tell me I'll wait ;) )

The results will be posted just after that limit.

I'll try.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: John Copeland on February 22, 2012, 09:50:52 AM
Where are the 12 recordings?  I would like to participate but don't understand where to listen and whatnot.
 :(
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Opus106 on February 22, 2012, 09:55:27 AM
Where are the 12 recordings?  I would like to participate but don't understand where to listen and whatnot.
 :(

You didn't say the magic words* earlier.



*Something along that lines of "I'd like to take part in this."


EDIT: Ack... beaten by a straightforward reply. :(
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2012, 01:52:59 PM
As mentioned, I am not familiar with this particular piece. But based on the clips, I was able to give my preference. I found it difficult to really differentiate between some versions. I did learn what I prefer in organ sound, which is quite useful! Anyway - the rest is in spoiler mode.

First Place: #3
Second Place: #9
Third Place: #11

Second to Last: #4 and #6 (equally ticking me off)
Last: #5


Notes
1 – Monochromatic sounding. Irritates over time. Missing some sound/notes audible in others. Ends nicely.
2 – Warmer and fuller sounding. More varied. More is audible. My ear did not get tired listening to this one.
3 – More details audible here. Better articulation. Good version. #1
4 – Irregular beat/tempo. Too much a mass of sound with little differentiation. Too little of the melody line. Too long.  #11
5 – Can an organ be out of tune? That is what it sounded like. #12
6 – More differentiation, but irregular rhythm – much more so than #4. Really, really irritating. It’s like they can’t count.  #11
7 – Mushy at times, but ok.
8 – Gives the music more room to breathe. Different lines more audible with better balance among the different lines. Yet, something was missing. 
9 – More rounded sound. But the balance is not always there. Still, a nice version.  #2
10 – A bit on the monochromatic side.
11 – Different! But the melodies get a bit lost at times. Still, like that it is different. #3
12 – Better balance and I liked how everthing is audible. But the ‘articulation’ was too simple.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Que on February 22, 2012, 02:06:16 PM
Here we go! :) Since I'm one of the last, I'll just post it as it is. (Are we going to make all the comments visible after the voting closes?) I had only time for one run trough - so these are just off hand first impressions.

1: Slow, turgid, and underarticulated, amorphous sound on an (new?) "glitzy" organ I don't like. Makes you wonder if this was recorded by an organist who was actually still alive! ;D

2: Much better!   :)Organ sounds quite good, but still too slow. Structured, articulated but still too much legato. Old School.

3: Uninspired, going through the motions. Very mechanical. Like the organ though.

4: A feisty old organ! Playing is very formal and stately. Slow.

5: At last, a quicker one!  :) On a appropriate (small) organ, at least to my ears... Playing is not structured and tight enough, registrations sound correct but not very imaginative.

6: A big (neo-Baroque?) organ. Swift but this organist makes mess of it. Not attractive and blurry.

7: Another organ I like. Playing is too hesitant and careful. Too safe, underpowered.

8: Good historic organ. Swift, structured, articulated. Definitely one of the best. It has sufficient gravitas without being stodgy.

9: A light, silvery sound - is this a historic organ or a modern copy? I like the strong pulse on this one - the music unfolds like clockwork. But it is a bit too smoothed out and lacks more pronounced articulation.

10: Mmmhh. Wall-to-wall sound and too much straightforward plodding. Old recording, Old School.

11. Much better. :) Historic organ (?), ornamentations. Nicely up-tempo. This guy (or girl) does interesting stuff with the music. Meticulous interweaving of the different voices - good stuff. And I love the organ.

12. I like the playing - swift but thourough. Contrary to no. 11 on the sober side, stately but this time in a good way. As Lutheran as they come!


After the first hearing I picked nos. 2, 8, 11 and 12.

No.2 was in the end too grand and straight laced. No 8 is very good and wins in the end from 12 on account of more imaginative registration. No. 11 has a place in itself because of the free, more ornamented style.

I would be quite happy with 8 and 11, or 12 for that matter. :)

Q
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Que on February 22, 2012, 02:13:53 PM
So, just to be clear, your vote is 1st place : 8, then 11, then 12, then 2, then the others ?

We're still waiting for 2 more votes on Classik  :)

Well, yes I guess so.  :) But 8 and 11 are so close in preference yet also that different in approach, that I would get both.

Q
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Que on February 22, 2012, 02:15:11 PM
I can put then both 1st ex aequo if you want :)

OK. :)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2012, 02:15:53 PM
3:  Very mechanical.
Q
This is a great descrption. It's exactly what I loved most about it! It was like clockwork. Fascinating. It's part of what put you off.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Que on February 22, 2012, 02:20:50 PM
This is a great descrption. It's exactly what I loved most about it! It was like clockwork. Fascinating. It's part of what put you off.

I agree, the clockwork feel does have its attractions - especially with highly structured music like Bach's. Would on that acount no. 12 also appeal to you?

Q
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2012, 02:29:33 PM
I agree, the clockwork feel does have its attractions - especially with highly structured music like Bach's. Would on that acount no. 12 also appeal to you?

Q
I'll have to re-listen tomorow (way, way past my bedtime) to 12 for that particular trait. That one stuck in my mind for a different reason.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 22, 2012, 02:37:12 PM
Just say you want to participate  ;) I just sent you the necessary informations.

The "project" sounds more and more interesting. Count me in too, if it isn´t to late, thanks.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 23, 2012, 02:24:30 PM
Here are my votes:

1)  Played in the straight style which prevailed in the 1950es-60es (legato articulation, long archs of phrasing and very little rubato). I liked the registration, but the change just before the end sounds ridiculous. The playing is from a technical point of view assured, but the interpretation is IMO only middle of the road and not very interesting. 

2) A bit more informed playing. Still long archs of phrasing but more distinctive articulation. The organ is a neo-baroque organ and its distinctive character (the principals and the rattling of the 16F reed in the pedal) makes me think of the organ of the Monastery church in Sorø.

3) The playing style is now HIP with rhythmic articulation and some rubato. Probably not a historical organ, though.

4) This is also HIP, but too excentric. The tempo is ponderous and the articulation is awfully mannered. The worst of the twelwe IMO.

5) HIP in the "Dutch" way with a fine equilibrium of all the components of performance (tempo, registration, articulation, agogics et.c) on a probably historical instrument of Schnitger type. One of the best.

6) HIP, but a hectic, maybe youthful performance, with wilfull agogics, and it is utterly unsatisfying. If the organist is the one I think, he was 34 at the time of the recording and uses to be more convincing. The organ is historical in middle-German style.

7) HIP and much more mature and balanced playing. There is some nervous feeling beneth the surface, but I think it adds energy to the interpretation, which I find rather good. I am not sure that the organ is historical, but if not it is a very good copy in middle-German style.

8) HIP and played with great authority and boldness. There is some distortion of the sound, the organ may be modern.

9) Not that different from no.1 but played with more authority, and as such preferable to no.1.

10) HIP, grandiose and well articulated. Great historical organ like the G. Silbermann in the Cathedral of Freiberg or the Z. Hildebrandt organ in Naumburg. Is no.8 and no.10 played by the same organist?

11) HIP and would be quite impressive without all these unnecessary extra trills, which I find add an inappropiate comical effect to the music.. I do not know others than Koopman who plays like that, at least on recordings.

12) HIP and like no. 5 played in the Dutch way, on a bigger organ and IMO with too sharp mixtures . Of the two I prefer no. 5.

My preferred versions from the point of view of interpretation are 5., 8, 7 and 10 in that order.
The ones I like the least are no. 4. and 6.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 23, 2012, 04:32:14 PM
2 (m.r. 4.11). Version 2 : Simon Preston (organ ? ; 1997?)

(http://www.nycago.org/PHOTOS/PrestonS.gif)

I unfortunately don't have the details of this recording with me.

The BWV 733 was recorded Nov.97 on the Marcussen organ (1942) of the Monastery church in Sorø. At least I recognised the very characteristic organ.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 23, 2012, 04:52:36 PM
Many thanks for the precision. I understand why you thought it was Knud Vad, then ;) Recognizing organs is a very impressive skill :o

Yes, and Knud Vad and Simon Preston share a position as to interpretation right between straight style (pre-HIP) and proper HIP style. However I think it would be difficult to confuse them in the choral-free works.

Now I must say good night. Thanks for the game. I shall comment further to morrow.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: DavidW on February 23, 2012, 06:38:03 PM
I was not surprised that #11 = Koopman because right after I posted Windows figured out what that track was and tagged it as Koopman! :o

I am really surprised that the sublime #2 is Preston, but really that amazingly balanced #8 is Leonhardt, I associate HIP with #6, 11 and assumed that both #2 and 8 were both traditional performances.

I think I'm going to see if I can find some Preston and Leonhardt on spotify. :)

And of course I have Fagius, I like his quick, rushed light style even if nobody else does. ;D
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Que on February 23, 2012, 10:41:50 PM
So, I picked Preston, Koopman, Leonhardt and Alain as the leading pack, and picked Leonhardt and Koopman as top choices! :D

Not bad... 8) But I totally missed the boat on Vernet! :o While I do currently enjoy his cycle very much.
But then again a brief listening of twelfe versions of one short piece can cause this kind of flukes.
Next time I'll take more time for listening.

The surprise is Preston, which I always avoided. Despite not mentioning it, in retrospect I also rather liked version no. 5 that turned out to be Fouccroulle. Maybe the fact that I find it was underpowered was due to the organ, as premont suggested.

Pity Marcon ended up so low, though I do totally understand why. Still, I do appreciate the rigour and musicality of it. But Marcon is not a Bachian - his Italian repertoire is on the other hand awesome.

I really do need to get my hands on the Leonhardt recordings if those ever get reissued! :)

Q
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 23, 2012, 10:56:45 PM
Very interesting. I'll need to go back to #8 and relisten. For me this was a fantastic exercise as someone who doesn't really focus on organ. I've learned a lot from the listening as well as the many comments, including some of the impressive predictions on what kind of organ was used! That was amazing for me. I could hear there were differences of course, but still, that is an impressive feat. Thanks for including us in this Discobole!!
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Opus106 on February 23, 2012, 11:23:00 PM
I've learned a lot from the listening as well as the many comments, including some of the impressive predictions on what kind of organ was used!

I was actually awaiting The Amazing Premont'sTM comments. And even wondered whether this would be a truly 'blind' test for him. :)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 23, 2012, 11:36:04 PM
About the versions not included in the listening
In particular Michel Chapuis, but I didn't have his (recently republished by United Archives) complete set immediately available when I prepared the listening.
This version was just restocked at Berkshire. I don't know how much it costs to send to France, but it is at least an option.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 24, 2012, 08:20:14 AM
I was actually awaiting The Amazing Premont'sTM comments. And even wondered whether this would be a truly 'blind' test for him. :)

I have heard all the recordings before except the Francis Jacob. But that was years back and not at all recently, and I refrained from a relisten yesterday, as this would be a kind of unsportsmanlike cheating.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Marc on February 24, 2012, 08:39:00 AM
I have heard all the recordings before except the Francis Jacob. But that was years back and not at all recently, and I refrained from a relisten yesterday, as this would be a kind of unsportsmanlike cheating.

Hi all!

I would have loved to join in, but I'm too busy recently.
Couldn't find the time.

All I can add is: I have heard all the recordings before including the Francis Jacob. :P

[.... sneakingly sneaking away .... ;D]
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 24, 2012, 09:19:53 AM
So I chose Foccroulle, Leonhardt, Francis Jacob and Vernet in that order and rejected Marcon and Fagius. Not surprising, except that I use to enjoy Fagius´ Bach more than I enjoyed his fussy BWV 733 yesterday.

Listing to that many versions of the same short piece may actually be confusing, and I agree with Que, that it is necessary to use more time for the listening.

If there is any interest, I might arrange a second half of this entertaining game.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 24, 2012, 09:24:19 AM
All I can add is: I have heard all the recordings before including the Francis Jacob. :P

You are indeed a fortunate man.  ;)

Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 24, 2012, 09:25:13 AM
You mean, on another piece ?

Yes, certainly.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 24, 2012, 09:51:11 AM
That would be great, definitely count me in 8)

Do you think about another Bach composition, or something else ?

In the first hand I thought of another organ piece by Bach - this would give me the greatest flexibility, e.g. the Dorian P&F or rather the prelude only as the example else would be too long.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Bulldog on February 24, 2012, 09:52:23 AM
Wow!  I'm really out of step with the group.  I didn't participate in the comparisons, but your least preferred version (Marcon) has been my favorite for a few years now.  I just love the tempo, power and uplifting nature of the interpretation; at peak volume, it knocks my socks off!
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 24, 2012, 10:04:51 AM
..your least preferred version (Marcon) has been my favorite for a few years now.  I just love the tempo, power and uplifting nature of the interpretation;
at peak volume, it knocks my socks off!

Well, I think it sucks (socks if you want).
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Marc on February 24, 2012, 10:14:37 AM
In the first hand I thought of another organ piece by Bach - this would give me the greatest flexibility, e.g. the Dorian P&F or rather the prelude only as the example else would be too long.

What about BWV 562 in C-minor?

BTW, for those who got inspired by this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.0.html
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: (: premont :) on February 24, 2012, 10:25:16 AM
What about BWV 562 in C-minor?

Thanks. A good alternative. I have to look up which recordings I own of it.
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 24, 2012, 10:47:58 AM
Thank you for the results, very fascinating to see! I will make sure to purchase the winners sometime in the future... ;)

Looking forward to seeing the Schumann results now!
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: Bulldog on February 24, 2012, 04:29:56 PM
Well, I think it sucks (socks if you want).

And I thought you only disliked the tempo and articulation. ;)
Title: Re: Blind comparison : J.S. Bach, Fuga sopra il Magnificat BWV 733
Post by: John Copeland on February 24, 2012, 07:10:31 PM
Due to my ears being bombarded with Olive Oil until next Friday when they will be irrigated at the Doctors, I cannot now participate in this one, or any until after next Friday 02/03/12.    :'(  However, for as long as blind comparisons go on after that date, I will heartily participate.  :D
I will still listen to them in as much as I can and check the results out of my usual extreme musical microscopy interest.   :-*