All things Igor Fyodorovich.
In The Old Place, threads included:
The Scintillating Stravinsky Shindig (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,563.0.html)
A Stravinsky Kiss (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12720.0.html)
Stravinsky and his Hollywood "failure" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5801.0.html)
Stravinsky's Neoclassicism (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5638.0.html)
Igor's Igloo (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,3063.0.html)
All right, I was lured into continuing with Dostoyevsky, and now I cannot put Crime & Punishment down (or at least, there are days when I don't pick it up, but I won't pick up any book other until I've finished this re-read).
But once I get to the end of that novel, I'm taking back up:
Stravinsky
A Creative Spring: Russia and France 1882–1934
by Stephen Walsh
I dearly love Stravinsky. ;D I was limited far too long to The Rite of Spring and Firebird, and once I expanded beyond he quickly became one of my very favorites. His music is quite modern and daring, yet appealing and catchy.
My favorite Stravinskians are Salonen and Boulez, they both get it right on clarity and passion, and really "get" Stravinsky's complex rhythmic writing.
I'm currently in love with the Violin Concerto (Cho-Liang Lin/Salonen), it's irresistable, right from the jaunty beginning it just enchants you and doesn't let go. Witty, fresh, breezy...divine.
I love that lighter side of Stravinsky and definitely have to explore more!
I'm primarily familiar with his big orchestral work, some of the ballets, Symphony in Three Movements. (A real gem!)
Any "lighter side" recommendations? :D
There is also this thread on Oedipus Rex.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4130.0.html
Mike
Le Sacre, Petrushka, Noces, Renard, Cantata, In memoriam Dylan Thomas, Symphony in three movements are among the absolute masterpieces of the XX century.
An extraordinary master that, in the XX century can only be matched with Debussy and Schönberg.
Quote from: Greta on April 09, 2007, 10:45:26 PM
I'm currently in love with the Violin Concerto (Cho-Liang Lin/Salonen), it's irresistable, right from the jaunty beginning it just enchants you and doesn't let go. Witty, fresh, breezy...divine.
I love that lighter side of Stravinsky and definitely have to explore more!
I'm primarily familiar with his big orchestral work, some of the ballets, Symphony in Three Movements. (A real gem!)
Any "lighter side" recommendations? :D
Hi
Greta!
Concerto per due pianoforti (a piece for two pianos, sans orchestra, N.B.)
Mavra (
opera buffa in one act, after
Pushkin)
Symphonies pour instruments à ventConcerto for piano and wind instruments
Quote from: Egebedieff on April 10, 2007, 01:29:07 AM
Also, it is hard to think of his last ballet Agon as light, but there is something of that lightness and transparency of scoring in this harp- and mandolin-infested, occasionally serial, work based on French courtly dances (appropriate for the '50s when Stravinsky had begun to look back at very early music and Schoenberg/Webern [esp sharing Webern's interest in early music]). Detailed complex imitative counterpoint, often with lines overlapping themselves in a way that hypnotizes me because although you can hear every note, you (and by 'you' I mean 'I') can't take in all at once, I speak in particular of the Gaillarde, in whose thrall I am perpetually.
A thoroughly enchantin work,
Egbdf!
That last one is more like Igor Magoo . . . .
The Mass ain't gettin' no love here.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:53:54 AM
The Mass ain't gettin' no love here.
It does with me: I find its crystalline clarity and restraint help make it one of Stravinsky's most personal utterances.
The performance we heard of the Mass in Maryland was a little too cushiony (I think the group had its hands full, and the Agnus Dei nearly defeated them).
But I like all three four recordings I have of it.
Karl doesn't need to know that I was also there. We talked afterwards. But for the rest of you, I was there and I can say that Maryland performance was OK, but it was missing something. They were trying to put some kind of finesse into it that didn't really have anything to do with the music. Too much legato, too much smoothness. Stravinsky wanted articulation. You can tell from his own recording. He didn't want his music to be all mushed up like it was Mendelssohn or Brahms.
The wind players blended nicely and their harmonies were very beautiful. The oboes and bassoons had a little bit of trouble with the extreme high notes that Stravinsky calls for.
This was the University of Maryland's Concert Chorale, with a group of student wind players.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on April 25, 2007, 04:15:03 PM
Karl doesn't need to know that I was also there. We talked afterwards. But for the rest of you, I was there and I can say that Maryland performance was OK, but it was missing something. They were trying to put some kind of finesse into it that didn't really have anything to do with the music. Too much legato, too much smoothness. Stravinsky wanted articulation. You can tell from his own recording. He didn't want his music to be all mushed up like it was Mendelssohn or Brahms.
The wind players blended nicely and their harmonies were very beautiful. The oboes and bassoons had a little bit of trouble with the extreme high notes that Stravinsky calls for.
This was the University of Maryland's Concert Chorale, with a group of student wind players.
Thanks for that description, which makes me feel like I know exactly what was wrong with the performance.
I think this is one of the rare cases where I prefer Stravinsky's own recording to the others I've heard. It brings out the wonderful icy-clear sound of the work more even than Ancerl and the Czech Philharmonia's winds.
I must manage to hear it live some time. :P
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on April 25, 2007, 04:15:03 PM
Karl doesn't need to know that I was also there. We talked afterwards. But for the rest of you, I was there and I can say that Maryland performance was OK, but it was missing something. They were trying to put some kind of finesse into it that didn't really have anything to do with the music. Too much legato, too much smoothness. Stravinsky wanted articulation. You can tell from his own recording. He didn't want his music to be all mushed up like it was Mendelssohn or Brahms.
The wind players blended nicely and their harmonies were very beautiful. The oboes and bassoons had a little bit of trouble with the extreme high notes that Stravinsky calls for.
This was the University of Maryland's Concert Chorale, with a group of student wind players.
Only thing to add, perhaps, is that the performance was led by a doctoral conducting student.
Certainly a brave effort, but most significantly held back by the tendency towards the cushiony.
Did I mention, Edward, that Mark was there, too? 8)
Recent Stravinsky listening:
"Ebony" Concerto
"Dumbarton Oaks"
8 Instrumental Miniatures
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 04:41:51 AM
Did I mention, Edward, that Mark was there, too? 8)
Oh, and by the way, you know that concert of the University of Maryland chorus?
Yeah, that one with the Stravinsky Mass.
That was me up there in the balcony.
Ramuz, who worked with
Stravinsky in Switzerland, and wrote the libretto for
L'histoire du soldat, leaves us this picture postcard of the composer:
QuoteStravinsky's writing desk resembled a surgeon's instrument tray; now the order which the surgeon there sets out is one last chance he gives himself in his struggle against death. The artist too (in his way) is engaged in a struggle with death. These bottles of different-colored inks, each in its hierarchical place, play small part in a grand affirmation of a superior order. They keep company with different sorts and shapes of rubber and every kind of glinting steel object: rulers, scrapers, knives, pens, not to mention that particular wheeled instrument which Stravinsky himself had invented for the drawing of staves. One may recall St Thomas's definition: beauty is the splendor of order.
In his notes,
Stephen Walsh adds:
QuoteThe "wheeled instrument" was the so called Stravigor — a several-sized wheeled stavewriter (rastrum), which Stravinsky had invented in about 1911 and had tried to patent through Nikolai Struve before the war. It figures first in his sketches for The Rite of Spring. Thereafter he usually drew his own staves on blank paper, filling in gaps at angles to avoid waste.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7985870.jpg)
It seems Sony 22 CD Stravinsky Edition is finally due for reappearance. So far only jpc is listing it for pre-order and the price looks right.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties)
Oh, that will be a sore temptation when it becomes available here.
Quote from: Drasko on May 15, 2007, 10:06:21 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7985870.jpg)
It seems Sony 22 CD Stravinsky Edition is finally due for reappearance. So far only jpc is listing it for pre-order and the price looks right.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties)
What a funny little walrus of a man.
Some called him Bilbo . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2007, 12:19:20 PM
Some called him Bilbo . . . .
That certainly has a nice ring to it.
*Groan* Karl, you bring out the worst in me.
Also, that unfortunately reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04
Closing in on the end of Stephen Walsh's volume I, A Creative Spring. A terrific read, and richly informative. For but one ancillary thing, I now have a much better picture of many figures in Stravinsky's career, who hitherto had only been shadowy names: Ramuz, Winterthur, and the princesse de Polignac, to mention but three.
QuoteI've just read your review of the Ziloti concert in which Schoenberg conducted his Pelleas. I saw from what you wrote that you really like and understand the essence of Schoenberg—that truly outstanding artist of our time, and I therefore think that you would not be uninterested to know his latest work, wherein is most intensively displayed the whole extraordinary stamp of his creative genius. I'm talking about his [Pierrot Lunaire], which I recently heard in Berlin. Here's something you "Contemporaries" ought to play! (Stravinsky writing to Karatygin, 26 Dec 1912)
Quote from: WalshAt the theatre, Stravinsky was rehearsing Les noces. "I sat in the stalls with my score at the first rehearsal," Monteux later recalled, "following every note. I had studied it thoroughly and I at once noticed that no one came in on time, chorus or soloists (Stravinsky at that time was not the conductor that he is today, having little or no experience with ensembles). The performance went through, and was a huge success with the Paris public, who always adored Stravinsky." Monteux persuaded Diaghilev to give him a rehearsal of his own. "I worked with the chorus, who knew their parts perfectly; it suifficed to give them their cues at the right places. As for the soloists, they sang in any key and anywhere. They had to learn their parts. A few days after that rehearsal I had my first performance of Les noces. It went perfectly and I was satisfied, but it had not the success as when conducted by the composer. C'est la vie! Ha ha!"
Quote from: Jaroslaw Iwaszkiewicz"Why do you change the rhythm so often?" somebody asks the composer. "Often?"—he is astonished. "I change it only when it is absolutely necessary."
No context, just liked the picture and thought of posting it here
(http://www.zeitgenoessische-oper.de/Kroll/Igor_Strawinsky_Ewald_Duelberg__Ausstattung_und_Otto_Klemperer_in_der_Krollopwer_1927_Premiere_Oedipus_Rex.jpg)
Igor Strawinsky, Eduard Dülberg (Ausstattung) und Otto Klemperer im Vorfeld der Premiere von Oedipus Rex an der Krolloper am 25. Februar 1928
That is a really cool photo, thanks for posting it.
--Bruce
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 05:18:48 AM
Closing in on the end of Stephen Walsh's volume I, A Creative Spring. A terrific read, and richly informative. For but one ancillary thing, I now have a much better picture of many figures in Stravinsky's career, who hitherto had only been shadowy names: Ramuz, Winterthur, and the princesse de Polignac, to mention but three.
I'm about to begin William James',
The Varieties of Religious Experience. As soon as I'm finished I'd love another classical themed text. So an easy recommendation then,
Karl?
Quote from: Steve on June 07, 2007, 02:57:35 PM
I'm about to begin William James', The Varieties of Religious Experience. As soon as I'm finished I'd love another classical themed text. So an easy recommendation then, Karl?
Yes, both volumes I (
A Creative Spring) and II (
The Second Exile). Just prepare yourself to want to hear all the
Stravinsky you've never yet heard :)
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 07:16:39 AM
Yes, both volumes I (A Creative Spring) and II (The Second Exile). Just prepare yourself to want to hear all the Stravinsky you've never yet heard :)
What do you think of the
Lied ohne name for two bassoons and the
Fanfare for a New Theatre for two trumpets? :)
Well, all right, I did find the bassoon duet resistable . . . I was thinking more on the lines of Berceuses de chat and Pribaoutki :)
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 07:24:14 AM
Well, all right, I did find the bassoon duet resistable . . . I was thinking more on the lines of Berceuses de chat and Pribaoutki :)
Those are certainly perfect examples of the dictum that a work can be short without being minor! (I'd toss the two Bal'mont settings and the
Three Japanese Lyrics into the same category as them.)
I finally heard The Fairy's Kiss! :D The recent Houston recording is on the radio, very good, a totally delightful work. I was kind of confused what composer I was listening to!
I'm not sure if it is one movement or several, but I got in at the jolly bouncy horns with the odd meters, which hooked me. And later the extended flute solo and chamber winds are excellent, w/ the harp and cello and clarinet, I always loved how Stravinsky wrote for winds. Gorgeous! Nice fairytale atmosphere, even Tchaikovskian, albeit slightly fractured. Prokofiev came to mind too for some reason. Only a bare trace of Le Sacre Stravinsky in the brass hits.
I'm always amazed at how much he experimented with radically different styles of writing. Still so many of his works I haven't heard, and none of his serial period I think. Les Noces sounds really interesting, which version is the one to go for? It seems there are several different ones, and a full orchestration, and a new one by Steven Stucky is premiering in LA too next year.
How wonderful that you are at last acquainted with the charming Fairy's Kiss, Greta! On one level, it's a powerful statement, isn't it, of the affection and respect Igor Fyodorovich had for Pyotr Ilyich?
Quote from: Greta on August 07, 2007, 11:58:24 PM
I finally heard The Fairy's Kiss! :D The recent Houston recording is on the radio, very good, a totally delightful work. I was kind of confused what composer I was listening to!
I'm not sure if it is one movement or several, but I got in at the jolly bouncy horns with the odd meters, which hooked me. And later the extended flute solo and chamber winds are excellent, w/ the harp and cello and clarinet, I always loved how Stravinsky wrote for winds. Gorgeous! Nice fairytale atmosphere, even Tchaikovskian, albeit slightly fractured. Prokofiev came to mind too for some reason. Only a bare trace of Le Sacre Stravinsky in the brass hits.
I'm always amazed at how much he experimented with radically different styles of writing. Still so many of his works I haven't heard, and none of his serial period I think. Les Noces sounds really interesting, which version is the one to go for? It seems there are several different ones, and a full orchestration, and a new one by Steven Stucky is premiering in LA too next year.
Great piece, isn't it! :D One of my favorites by Stravinsky, for sure.
For
Les Noces, I have the Bernstein recording below and like it very much. But I haven't heard some notable others, such as the one by Robert Craft. Doing a quick search, I notice there is also a DVD of the Royal Ballet (Covent Garden) if you want to see it danced, along with
The Firebird.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NJ4XKGQPL._AA240_.jpg)
--Bruce
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1592/stravinskymugshotresizeln1.jpg)
Finally found a big picture of it :)
He looks like they roughed him up a bit on Scollay Square first . . . normally, he is so faultlessly soigné.
Now if only he'd (pace Wodehouse) done an orchestral version of Way Down the soigné river....
I can't either think that adjective without chuckling at remembering Wodehouse :D
Lethe, do you have The Big Box, or did I but dream it? 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 26, 2007, 11:23:55 AM
Lethe, do you have The Big Box, or did I but dream it? 8)
Yep, as-per me, I have yet to listen to most of it - the stand-out discovery so far has been the violin concerto.
How is progress on The Box, Lethe? Isaac Stern playing the Violin Concerto is a fine document of the piece!
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2007, 10:35:47 AM
How is progress on The Box, Lethe? Isaac Stern playing the Violin Concerto is a fine document of the piece!
The biggest discoveries so far are: Ebony Concerto, Canticum Sacrum and Threni (that one in particular was unexpectedly substantial/large). Ones I was aware were popular but had barely heard until now: Octet, Symphony of Psalms, Requiem Canticles.
I was surprised at how little chamber music was on here - evidence that he didn't write much?
Quote from: Lethe on November 19, 2007, 10:45:22 AM
The biggest discoveries so far are: Ebony Concerto, Canticum Sacrum and Threni (that one in particular was unexpectedly substantial/large). Ones I was aware were popular but had barely heard until now: Octet, Symphony of Psalms, Requiem Canticles.
I was very pleasantly surprised with how much I like this recording of the
Ebony Concerto, a work which had pretty much eluded me ere now.
Quote from: Lethe
I was surprised at how little chamber music was on here - evidence that he didn't write much?
I suppose not, comparatively speaking.
Stravinsky's career certainly resulted in a wealth of music for large forces. Some of the ballets, though (
L'histoire du soldat,
Bayka/Renard) are scored essentially for chamber groups.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2007, 10:35:47 AM
How is progress on The Box, Lethe? Isaac Stern playing the Violin Concerto is a fine document of the piece!
Stravinsky sure didn't think so. Stravinsky wanted Eudice Shapiro, but Stern was the Columbia star violinist.
Quote from: ' on December 13, 2007, 06:24:43 PM
Stravinsky sure didn't think so. Stravinsky wanted Eudice Shapiro, but Stern was the Columbia star violinist.
That doesn't follow. This means that
Stravinsky wanted some other performer, all right; it does not mean that the recording with
Stern is at all otherwise than a fine document of the piece.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 14, 2007, 05:08:18 AM
That doesn't follow. This means that Stravinsky wanted some other performer, all right; it does not mean that the recording with Stern is at all otherwise than a fine document of the piece.
My comment that he preferred Shapiro wasn't intended as a statement of proof that the IS/IS recording "is at all otherwise than a fine document of the piece" (whatever that sort of pronouncement is intended to mean).
It was preceded by a statement of the fact that Stravinsky didn't think so, which is fairly frequently documented (oddly, not in the liner notes). A quick glance turns up these references.
See Walsh Vol II page 517,
or Charles Joseph's "Stravinsky Inside Out" page 216
I remember someone recounting a conversation in the car in which Stravinsky, lamenting how badly things went w/ Stern, says something along the lines of "and to think Eudice Shapiro is here in Los Angeles."
It's okay if you like that recording, but I think we can discern Stravinsky's feelings about ir when he complains that Stern had "hardly done me the respect of learning it ..."
Regarding recordings as documents: Stravinsky spoke of his recordings as "documents" early on, but felt less and less so of the '60s recordings, esp. over such things as the Stern and Entremont collaborations, among other things.
Thanks for the expansion. Entremont was certainly a peculiar pairing with the music, too.
Well, more than a few neighbors complain (not all of them graciously) about my brief posts (and not that your statement was such a complaint, of course). But my circumstances of browsing/keeping up with the forum (which runs to the chatty side, even if I did not participate at all) are generally such, that most of the time my choice is, post a brief message, or don't participate. And I forego the latter option. If that brings grief to some, I truly regret it. But, hard cheddar.
To expand on my own remark, apostrophe: Much of the Big Stravinsky Box are excellent renditions of much of the master's oeuvre. In many cases, next to the only recordings of pieces which deserve better than next-to-only-recording status (gag me with a hundred complete-Beethoven-symphony sets). Some of them are a bit dodgy (I must admit to puzzled disappointment with the performance of Agon, which has much rattier moments to it, than any recording with the musicians of the Cleveland Orchestra has any right to). For the Violin Concerto, largely I do prefer Wolfgang Schneiderhan's playing with the Berliner Philharmoniker and Karel Ančerl, perhaps; even there, though, I find the Stravinsky document of unique interest, even where there is some apparently near-fatal compromise. Like the failure to include the repeat in the first of the Movements for piano and orchestra.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 14, 2007, 12:32:53 PM
Thanks for the expansion. Entremont was certainly a peculiar pairing with the music, too.
Karl, you should learn to address posters
by name ........
Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2007, 05:28:58 AM
(I must admit to puzzled disappointment with the performance of Agon, which has much rattier moments to it, than any recording with the musicians of the Cleveland Orchestra has any right to).
I may agree, and I would like to hear the Cleveland Orch perform it. And perhaps there are rattier moments than one should expect from the Los Angeles Festival Sym Orch (essentially the same crowd of west coast Columbia Symphony/LA Phil players IS recorded with in LA). I am still rather fond of that recording, because it is the one I bonded with -- perhaps a little like what happens when you learn to play a piece wrong. I heard a recording BBC broadcast Strav. conducted shortly after the recording, hoping for a better performance, but it has even more of the same problems of the Columbia rec.
I think the Cleveland Orch Strav recordings are among the best-played of the Columbias, although there are some surprising gaffes, esp. the oboe disappearing for a measure or two in Card Party. (Mysteriously repaired on the CD set)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2007, 05:28:58 AM
For the Violin Concerto, largely I do prefer Wolfgang Schneiderhan's playing with the Berliner Philharmoniker and Karel Ančerl, perhaps; even there, though, I find the Stravinsky document of unique interest, even where there is some apparently near-fatal compromise. Like the failure to include the repeat in the first of the Movements for piano and orchestra.
That is a particular curiosity, since the repeat was there on the lp release, albeit a copy/paste (coincidentally worth pointing out that McClure's other charge, Glenn Gould, was in favor of just using the same performance twice for repeats). McClure missed this on the CD remastering. I expect there are similar copy/paste repeats given the budget McClure was working with.
An optimist might say "Single Beginning-Quote" . . . .
Santa was very good to me today. He brought me my own copy of The Stravinsky Box. All 22 CDs. Just about the complete works. Life is good.
Splendid, Mark!
Life is good here too because I bought the very same collection as a Winter Solstice present for Lis! - Aren't those presents you buy for yourself always the best ones? ;)
I skimmed through those 22 discs and am surprised at the amount of songs Stravinsky composed; never heard any of them!
Have fun with "The Owl and the Pussycat," Lis!
Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 04:43:03 AM
Have fun with "The Owl and the Pussycat," Lis!
I did have fun,
Karl! It's with Robert Kraft and she sings in English, I can understand almost every word.
The one I am very happy about is
Oedipus. I have the video with
Jessye Norman and
Philip Langridge conducted by
Seiji Ozawa. Those two soloists and the production is fabulous, but all is ruined by casting the Japanese female as speaker. My apologies to any native Japanese speaker, but it's a violent sounding language and this woman comes on like one of those yappy terriers, ruining the entire performance. Now I have a wonderful
Oedipus to enjoy, pleasant voices all the way around! :)
That is a wonderful Oedipus Rex, Lis! Long may you dance, and may nothing freeze off! 8)
Stravinsky was one of my first loves--
Apollon musagetes and the
Symphony of Psalms being my two favourites, other brilliant works being his
Mass, the
Symphonies of Wind Instruments,
Symphony in C,
Orpheus, the
Concertino (the string quartet version especially), the
Violin Concerto (especially the finale!),
Oedipus Rex,
Pulcinella, and
Persephone. And of course the first big three ballets goes without saying.
Persephone and Orpheus seem to be underrated pieces (Stravinsky himself wasn't too fond of Persephone, although that might also be because Gide gave him such a hard time LOL). Nagano did a good recording of Persephone in the early 90s paired with the Rite as a double-CD set but last I checked it was out of print. I was sorely disappointed with Tilson Thomas' recording.
I only recently heard his
Elegie for solo viola which is also very good. Sadly, Stravinsky didn't write much chamber music & generally I can't get into his solo piano music or for two pianos (except his
Sonata for Two Pianos is nice and reminds me a bit of Satie).
I recently re-acquianted myself with
Zvezdolikiy ("Star-face" or "King of the Stars") for men's chorus and orchestra. If I recall, Stravinsky wrote in around 1912 (?). Its a very mysterious piece, unlike anything else I've ever heard, but what is especially striking is how much Debussy's influence is present. But then, there are some passages in the Rite that bring Debussy to mind (like the opening of part II for example). --oh, certainly it doesn't sound LIKE Debussy, but the influence is very much *there*. Anyway, I do highly recommend this somewhat obscure piece-- its truly otherworldly sounding...
Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 08:38:27 AM
All right, I was lured into continuing with Dostoyevsky, and now I cannot put Crime & Punishment down...
Just a side note: I read this for the first time last year, and WOW! -- it was impossible to put down! (I ended up reading it twice last year-- the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation)
Quote from: Ephemerid on January 28, 2008, 07:49:25 PM
I only recently heard his Elegie for solo viola which is also very good.
Yes, of the (dwindling) body of
Stravinsky works I have not yet heard, I am keenest to hear this one :-)
Quote from: Ephemerid on January 28, 2008, 07:49:25 PM
Persephone and Orpheus seem to be underrated pieces (Stravinsky himself wasn't too fond of Persephone, although that might also be because Gide gave him such a hard time LOL). I was sorely disappointed with Tilson Thomas' recording.
I recently re-acquianted myself with Zvezdolikiy ("Star-face" or "King of the Stars") for men's chorus and orchestra. If I recall, Stravinsky wrote in around 1912 (?). Its a very mysterious piece, unlike anything else I've ever heard, but what is especially striking is how much Debussy's influence is present. But then, there are some passages in the Rite that bring Debussy to mind (like the opening of part II for example). --oh, certainly it doesn't sound LIKE Debussy, but the influence is very much *there*. Anyway, I do highly recommend this somewhat obscure piece-- its truly otherworldly sounding...
Orpheus is one of my favourite Stravinsky ballets. And
Zvezdolikiy is a piece I have known and loved ever since I bought a Tilson Thomas (!) record in the 1970s, where it was coupled with the
Sacre. It's a terrific, dissonant piece on a poem by Symbolist poet Balmont, and it went too far for Debussy, if I remember my Taruskin correctly...
Who was that mysterious " ' " or rather "end-quote man"?
Listening through the 22 CD set has been wonderful. I was just wondering if there was anything major that had been missed out?
All it leaves out are the solo pieces: The clarinet pieces, the viola piece, the easy piano pieces (The Five Fingers, 3 Easy Pieces*, 5 Easy Pieces*; though they do show up orchestrated), the Four Etudes for piano op. 7, the early Piano Sonata in F# minor.
Also missing are the Three Pieces for String Quartet and Concertino for String Quartet. The latter is represented in its 12 instrument setting. His wind setting of "Song of the Volga Boatman" is also missing.
Most curious for its apparent absence is the Fanfare for two trumpets, which is odd because all the other pieces from the LP it originally appeared on are there. Or maybe I just haven't noticed its presence yet.
* (piano duet, actually)
(http://www.harmoniamundi.com/Publish/album/1036/801913_G.jpg)
Could wax lyrical but won't. This is better option, I believe. I've uploaded whole third scene of Les Noces (320 kbps mp3) so everyone can judge for themselves. I think it's excellent.
http://www.mediafire.com/?58gdkgx51d2 (http://www.mediafire.com/?58gdkgx51d2)
I will need to listen a lot more, but my general impression of my initial traversal through these huge swathes of repertoire is that, while I like everything, I don't love it in the same way that I do the Rite of Spring... Maybe I'm expecting too much - he raised the bar pretty high with that piece! So far, I have been most impressed by Agon, Apollo, Requiem Canticles, Concerto and Sonata for two pianos, but I'm sure this list will grow as I listen through them all again.
Hmm. Well, I couldn't say that I love Svadebka, the Symphony of Psalms, Orpheus or Agon 'the way I do" Le sacre. Each piece has its own profile. I don't think I love the other pieces less than I do Le sacre.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 04, 2008, 07:09:51 AM
Hmm. Well, I couldn't say that I love Svadebka, the Symphony of Psalms, Orpheus or Agon 'the way I do" Le sacre. Each piece has its own profile. I don't think I love the other pieces less than I do Le sacre.
On the other hand, someone whose only exposure to these particular works is from the Big Stravinsky Box is not going to hear their full impact. Except for
Orpheus, all of these pieces are represented by weak performances, and are much better done elsewhere.
Robert Shaw recorded
Symphony of Psalms at least twice, and they're both magnificent. For
Agon, you've got to hear Erich Leinsdorf's reading, or Michael Tilson Thomas'.
Orpheus sounds like one of Stravinsky's better conducting efforts, but I know of no other recording to compare it to.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on February 04, 2008, 01:20:29 PM
Orpheus sounds like one of Stravinsky's better conducting efforts, but I know of no other recording to compare it to.
The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recorded the work, although it's OOP (but Arkiv has it or look aftermarket).
Wouldn't know about comparisons as I've never heard the work. Would like to, though.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MW93JTKSL._SS500_.jpg)
How could I forget the Symphony of Psalms! That may be my second favourite work by Stravinsky. I read recently that Rostropovich said that Shostokvich's favourite work by Stravinsky was the Symphony of Psalms (and his favourite work by Prokofiev was the Symphony Concerto).
Is there a difference between Chez Stravinsky and Igor Stravinsky, the man who wrote Rite of Spring and various other modernist music?
Chez is a French preposition meaning "at the home of."
Quote from: karlhenning on February 06, 2008, 04:22:26 AM
Chez is a French preposition meaning "at the home of."
OH LOL I thought that was the man's first name. Thanks for clarifying.
Quote from: donwyn on February 04, 2008, 04:02:16 PM
The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recorded the work, although it's OOP (but Arkiv has it or look aftermarket).
Wouldn't know about comparisons as I've never heard the work. Would like to, though.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MW93JTKSL._SS500_.jpg)
I used to own that disc. I've got Neeme Jarvi's CD recording on Chandos, which is good, but, if I remember right, the Orpheus takes the slow passages of Orpheus a bit slower than Jarvi (the opening & closing and also the ascent from the underworld scene)-- which I prefer.
The ascension scene is one of the most beautiful passages written by Stravinsky-- those two bars of silence when Orpheus looks back on Eurydice!!! :o I love that sort of subtle drama, so typical of Stravinsky-- just like the soft "alleluia" passages in the
Symphony of Psalms.
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 11, 2008, 11:36:44 AM
I used to own that disc. I've got Neeme Jarvi's CD recording on Chandos, which is good, but, if I remember right, the Orpheus takes the slow passages of Orpheus a bit slower than Jarvi (the opening & closing and also the ascent from the underworld scene)-- which I prefer.
The ascension scene is one of the most beautiful passages written by Stravinsky-- those two bars of silence when Orpheus looks back on Eurydice!!! :o I love that sort of subtle drama, so typical of Stravinsky-- just like the soft "alleluia" passages in the Symphony of Psalms.
I just ordered this Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recording of the Orpheus ballet off Amazon. Looking forward to getting to know the work. Thanks for the highlight tip. I'll keep an ear out for the passage...
Quote from: donwyn on February 11, 2008, 07:04:19 PM
I just ordered this Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recording of the Orpheus ballet off Amazon. Looking forward to getting to know the work. Thanks for the highlight tip. I'll keep an ear out for the passage...
Cool! You're in for a real treat! :)
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 11, 2008, 07:29:16 PM
Cool! You're in for a real treat! :)
But no
tricks please ;)
I should not have said that, being I'm not a fan of Stravinsky.
I'll leave now.
Quote from: paulb on February 12, 2008, 03:59:20 AM
I should not have said that, being I'm not a fan of Stravinsky.
I know,
Paul, he was far too modern for you.
Probably you should stick to Romantics like
Pettersson.
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 11, 2008, 07:29:16 PM
Cool! You're in for a real treat! :)
Seconded. 'Orpheus' is one of my favourite Stravinsky ballets. It seems to continue where 'Apollon Musagète' left off. Marvellous.
Quote from: Jezetha on February 12, 2008, 07:21:36 AM
It seems to continue where 'Apollon Musagète' left off.
Yeah, I hear that too...
Apart from all the vocal compositions, Stravinsky is topdog in my collection, but I am ashamed to say that the big box of the fella, is still wrapped....... :o
Quote from: Harry on February 12, 2008, 07:38:04 AM
Apart from all the vocal compositions, Stravinsky is topdog in my collection, but I am ashamed to say that the big box of the fella, is still wrapped....... :o
Well, I can promise you, Harry - Stravinsky is outstanding in his own 'Orpheus'...
Quote from: Jezetha on May 29, 2008, 04:20:27 AM
Letter by Robert Craft re Walsh:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9506EFDE133EF93BA15756C0A9609C8B63
Alas, that it should look like the
Shostakovich Wars are going to suffer rivalry in the
Stravinsky Wars!
Quote from: CraftGreg Sandow's review of Stephen Walsh's ''Stravinsky: The Second Exile'' (April 30) quotes Walsh to the effect that much of my work ''is riddled with bias, error, supposition and falsehood.'' I maintain that these terms apply more aptly to Walsh's work.
Although phrased in adult fashion, this is the musicological equivalent of
I know you are, but what am I? It is some little while since I read the Walsh, but I remember sober detail which underpinned the "riddled with bias" remark, which looks so harsh out of context.
It is obvious that, where Walsh is striving for an equable account of a major composer's life, if his working relation with Craft (a significant source) sours (and barring some other evidence, I must think that this would be contrary to Walsh's wishes), Craft is in a ready position to make himself the 500-lb gorilla in the gazebo.
I hope this seems more general regret that the truth is suffering because of an imperfect alliance of personalities, rather than casting any one person as a villain.
Quote. . . in a ready position to make himself the 500-lb gorilla in the gazebo.
Viz.:Quote from: Craft. . . why does [Walsh] continue trying to discredit someone who lived in the closest daily relationship with the composer for a quarter of a century?
Very cleverly nullifying any idea that Walsh's goal may be historical truth, but instead mere vindictiveness;
and conveniently disregarding a point which (IIRC) Craft himself once made that he was (I paraphrase) too close to the composer, for too long, to write an unclouded biography.
FWIW the impression I carried from the Walsh is that he did a very good job; that the book carries itself like the work of someone who tried to do his best; that it is not the final word, but that it is an important scholarly step in trying to focus on
Stravinsky, rather than on Craft; but, there arose difficulties of some personal nature.
Quote from: ' on September 08, 2008, 07:13:32 PM
Found a copy Postnikova and Irina Schnittke on Melodiya lp. I like esp how they let the tone blossom and the headlong pace of the third mvt. Sounds like the transcription is based on the original edition, and perhaps the early Columbia recording. Is there a DSCH expert around here who knows much about how this came to be?
I'll reply, partly speculatively, and will deny the label of "expert." A composition student of
Shostakovich's from his Moscow days, Karen Khatchaturyan, remembers
Shostakovich getting hold of a copy of the
Stravinsky score. (
Stravinsky was long an idol of
Dmitri Dmitriyevich,
Petrushka in particular was an apparent influence early on, and for years there was a photo of
Igor Fyodorvich on his desk.) The four-hands arrangement I see both as an 'exercise' whereby
Shostakovich would get right into the guts of this score with which he was rightly infatuated, and — since we are talking of a monumental work for chorus and orchestra using sacred texts, in Soviet Russia — would have been practically the only way for him (and his students) to get to hear this piece resounding in actual musical space.
Quote from: ' on February 02, 2008, 08:35:32 AM
There are of course a number of works, and lots more arrangements of his own music and others, that Stravinsky never recorded. Craft has done some of them for MusicMasters/Koch/Naxos. '
Which pieces remain to be recorded?
Are there any recordings of Mushrooms go to war and other minor, early pieces such as Tarantella?
Some of the early pieces have also been reported as "lost", including the 1904 Cantata, and the Tarantula (1906). Have any of this material resurfaced?
Quote from: Ugh! on September 24, 2008, 05:03:56 AM
Are there any recordings of Mushrooms go to war and other minor, early pieces such as Tarantella?
Yes, at least in the case of the former. Koch released a disc by
Harmonie Ensemble/New York with premiere recordings of e.g.
How the Mushrooms Went to War and the
Petit Ramusianum Harmonique.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2008, 05:07:48 AM
Yes, at least in the case of the former. Koch released a disc by Harmonie Ensemble/New York with premiere recordings of e.g. How the Mushrooms Went to War and the Petit Ramusianum Harmonique.
Interesting, have you heard it?
Yes; interesting little bits, as such marginalia must be in the case of an artist like Stravinsky.
This month Gramophone has a long item comparing CDs and DVDs of The Rake's Progress. It is written by David Patrick Stearns. He is a critic from The Philadelphia Enquirer. I enjoyed the piece and it provided a number of insights. I have the Gardiner version and I have not heard any other at all for many years. He writes that nothing escapes Gardiner, everything goes well, but what we have is a purely exterior presentation with the interior embodiment missing.
Not knowing other versions; does anyone here know the Gardiner, what do you think of it? He favours Chailly.
Mike
It's only relatively recently that I listened to the entirety of The Rake's Progress, Mike; and so I only know "Igor's Own" from the Big Box. I am curious to learn more.
Oh, I had been hoping you would have it at your finger tips. It's moxies until someone else turns up then.
Mike
Here's a brand new recording of some late Igor that interests me. Anyone heard it yet?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xT7tr9QqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Nowhere near too many recordings of those works have been made; and Gielen has my confidence in this repertory.
Quote from: Spitvalve on December 29, 2008, 10:22:20 AM
Here's a brand new recording of some late Igor that interests me. Anyone heard it yet?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xT7tr9QqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Probably the selling point for this disc is the fact that so much of this music is under-represented in the catalog. So it's almost self-recommending already.
Performance-wise I'm not in a position to say one way or another but I can 'guesstimate' at the quality based on this disc I have:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zM4Hf62HL._SS500_.jpg)
To me this disc is a winner. Gielen approaches the music with an ear for clarity, proportion, and detail. If a bit of overall warmth is sacrificed in this pursuit the musical profile is still strong and characterful. Which is simply to say there's more than one way to approach this music and Gielen succeeds in making a case for his conception.
I would expect much the same to apply to the former disc.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 29, 2008, 10:45:20 AM
Nowhere near too many recordings of those works have been made; and Gielen has my confidence in this repertory.
Agreed, which is why I just ordered it :)
Quote from: Jezetha on February 12, 2008, 07:21:36 AM
Seconded. 'Orpheus' is one of my favourite Stravinsky ballets. It seems to continue where 'Apollon Musagète' left off. Marvellous.
It is indeed the latest
Stravinsky work to transfix my ears for an extended period. The delicate simplicity of the harp, sustained strings, and horn . . . the forays into the more active
Apollo-like passages. Marvelous. And, in much the same way that no one listening to
L'oiseau de feu would 'predict' that the same composer would write
Le sacre four years later . . . no one could have plotted a curve from
Le sacre to
Orpheus.
I just watched two DVDs of the Rite of Spring as ballet. Amazing! Well, especially the first one which is a modern version, featuring lots of nudity. The second is actually a film about the premiere of the work, with the entire ballet in it. Needless to say, I liked the new version of the dance itself better. ;D
My ideal Le sacre production would be Roerich's original stage designs, but not the original choreography (thank you very much).
Nudity, negotiable . . . .
Of course, for all the overall consistency of 'voice' throughout an astonishingy varied career, some of my favorites are 'one-off' works which, while there are ties to what Stravinsky was doing generally at that period, create a musical space which the composer 'let be' . . . in particular I am thinking of Le baiser de la fée and Perséphone.
Quote from: ' on January 02, 2009, 02:23:37 PM
Was the latter the PBS production of the Joffrey Ballet doing the Millicent Hodson reconstruction of the Diaghilev production (Nijinsky, Roerich)? I have never seen this available, so I only have my old VHS taped off of the air? Who choreographed the modern production? Paul Taylor?'
It is all on Youtube, J., first part here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjX3oAwv_Fs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjX3oAwv_Fs)
I happen to like the Nijinsky choreography as well, almost puppet-like, or resembling graphic animation more than anything else. In any case, Stravinsky owes a lot to the uproar that choreography created during the premiere ;)
At the risk of sounding completely plebian, to me the coreography and costumes in the linked to production were all faintly ridiculous - like watching the smurfs or maybe Star Wars Ewoks dance - to me the overall effect was more cute than terrifying tribal ritual. I like the opening of part II though.
Loads of other productions on youtube. Just three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zfODAaikE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdoF2yJzr2I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axuJXlEWYhg&feature=related
Listened to Mavra yesterday ( on the radio/ Stravinsky conducting). What a great work! I really must listen again.
P.
And the Prelude to Mavra: it's like Copland, before Copland was Copland ;)
Quote from: Guido on January 03, 2009, 01:19:02 AM
At the risk of sounding completely plebian, to me the coreography and costumes in the linked to production were all faintly ridiculous - like watching the smurfs or maybe Star Wars Ewoks dance - to me the overall effect was more cute than terrifying tribal ritual. I like the opening of part II though.
Loads of other productions on youtube. Just three:
The
Sacre is typically a ballet that needs to be seen in the theatre. It films very badly because it's all about the ensemble on the theatre floor - something a camera can't capture.
The
Sacre with the girls with their panties down was a hoot. I thought this was the second act, thinking you don't want to strip right away, and then the oboe started: Act one! [edit: obviously this should be: "bassoon"]
You know, ever since the fifties the
Sacre has been one of the main dump sites for desperate AD - choreographers. If you don't know what to do, just do a
Sacre.
In a way, a sort of "arrival" for the piece, I guess.
I don't think there's been any mention of Zvesdoliki (The King of the stars) which is a favourite Stravinsky piece of mine - and several friends over here in Britland.
It's a rich score, characteristically likeable . . . just over almost before you know it.
Also . . . I have this idea that Stravinsky didn't mean the 'inscription chords' to be sung, yet . . . Craft goes ahead and has them sung.
Perhaps I misremember, though.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 11:43:51 AM
Also . . . I have this idea that Stravinsky didn't mean the 'inscription chords' to be sung, yet . . . Craft goes ahead and has them sung.
Perhaps I misremember, though.
Please explain. What are the inscription chords?
At the head of the first page, and before the score proper begins, Stravinsky 'sets' the title, Zvez-do-li-ki, to four chords in white-note notation.
Hmm . . . I thought I remembered them singing the Hebrew letters in Threni (which are in the body of the score) in the Craft recording; guess it's high time to listen again!
Is Angelin Preljocaj's coreography of Rite of Spring available on DVD? It looks very interesting, panties or no panties.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 11:43:51 AM
Also . . . I have this idea that Stravinsky didn't mean the 'inscription chords' to be sung, yet . . . Craft goes ahead and has them sung.
Perhaps I misremember, though.
Yes, they're notated strangely aren't they? Every performance I've heard includes them including Stravinsky's own (if memory serves me right).
Quote from: ' on January 07, 2009, 01:31:05 PM
There is a curious recording of Mavra done with an arrangement for a small theatre orchestra (Moscow Helikon Theatre Cha Orch/Cyril Tikhonov) with a small ensemble (piano, harmonium, solo instruments). Has the kind of ad hoc feel of Renard. You miss the full wind sonorities, but the performance is very effective dramatically. I'd love to see a live performance in this form. '
That's interesting, J., you know I love these alternative arrangements (re:weddings). Is this recording available anywhere (for instance in your collection ;) )?
Quote from: Cato on January 21, 2009, 07:16:53 AM
. . . I will not bother playing with words: So I will aver that Stravinsky was much more in the stylistic stream of folklorism than impressionism.
Which, not by mere chance, was in harmony with one of the principal artistic aims of Мир Исскуства (
The World of Art).
I thought I remembered the absence of any such thing; but I've now re-read the chapter, and can without the least doubt observe that Roman Vlad, in the 8-page chapter of his book devoted exclusively to
Le sacre du printemps, does not mention either
Debussy or
La mer. Not even once.
In a footnote, Vlad points out that John Cocteau wrote:
Quote from: CocteauAll in all, the Rite of Spring is still a savage work, an organized savage work (oeuvre fauve).
Offhand, it does note seem that Cocteau would place
La mer in the same stylistic bucket.
a little reviewThis earlier-mentioned disc arrived & I've been listening to it:
Quote from: Spitvalve on December 29, 2008, 10:22:20 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xT7tr9QqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
First impressions are highly positive. I can only compare Gielen's
Requiem Canticles with the pioneering Craft recording. Gielen scores highly in terms of bringing out the color and detail of the score; by comparison Craft sounds a bit rough and 1-dimensional. Gielen has convinced me that
Requiem Canticles is one of Igor's most mysterious and enchanting scores - something I had suspected, but wasn't convinced of before now.
Quote from: ' on January 21, 2009, 06:03:45 PM
How does he handle the parlando passage? I have always cringed to hear that in the Craft recording.
Makes me cringe too. Gielen is smoother and more natural-sounding.
I finally ordered that box set. Only $40 for 22 CDs. 0:)
What should I expect? I already have the recording of him conducting the Symphony in C, 3 movements, and Psalms, and I couldn't even tell the recording was from the 60s! Is the rest of the set like that? I've heard that the Oedipus Rex recording isn't good, though.
Quote from: G Forever on February 17, 2009, 12:37:12 PM
I finally ordered that box set. Only $40 for 22 CDs. 0:)
Outstanding!
Quote from: G ForeverWhat should I expect? I already have the recording of him conducting the Symphony in C, 3 movements, and Psalms, and I couldn't even tell the recording was from the 60s! Is the rest of the set like that? I've heard that the Oedipus Rex recording isn't good, though.
You've many hours of delightful listening ahead of you!
(I don't recall offhand any disappointment with the
Oe. R. . . . .)
Good to hear. :)
Well, I've gone through quite a few of the CDs, but still have several to listen to.
I've listened to The Song of the Nightingale twice now, and it's just a jaw-dropping piece. I'm surprised it's not more popular than it is. The orchestration is unbelievable- and he uses every technique in the book at that time. He even has major parts for violin to play in a high position on the G String, without glissando or vibrato, and it sounds like a completely different instrument.
A couple others that have caught my attention are:
Les Noces (what a sound!),
Renard (strange attraction to this one- not sure what it is, maybe it has something to do with me listening to the opening score example and explanation of his heterophonic technique... I don't know. Just listening to it gives me this incredible feeling, like nostalgia, even though I haven't heard it before.... but what if I have?) 8)
Persephone (just pure beauty, all there is to say)
Also, I've always been curious...
how exactly did both the musical languages of Prokofiev and Stravinsky develop? I've read 2 of Prokofiev's biographies before, but none of Stravinsky, so I'm pretty lost when it comes to him.
Is the best explanation actually the simplest?- that they both just happened to be progressive-minded composers that were more directly influenced by guys like Rimsky-Korsakov, Rachmaninov, and Scriabin? Where did both of them get the desire to push music as far as they did at that time? Is Scriabin the most influential in their progressive thinking, even if their styles are completely different? When Prokofiev premiered the Schoenberg op.11 in Russia, it sounded like he didn't have any sort of connection or interest in it, other than a curiosity. Where do they both get the idea to be so daring?
I've heard very little Stravinsky, but just recently got the Violin Concerto. It's incredible! :)
Tonight I'm going to the Kennedy Center to hear Gil Shaham play the Stravinsky Violin Concerto with the National Symphony. The program also has the Divertimento from The Fairy's Kiss, a suite from Kurt Weill's Mahagonny and the Overture, Waltz and Finale from Powder Her Face by Ades. The conductor is Hannu Lintu.
Who, Mark? Yes, I presume he must have done.
Quote from: G Forever on February 28, 2009, 07:20:47 PM
Finnish?
Very much so. I was sitting in one of the chorister seats, meaning the section behind the orchestra where the chorus sits when they do works with chorus. I enjoy sitting there because you get to see the musicians at work, look over their shoulders and read the music on their stands, plus you get to see the conductor's facial expressions. Lintu makes a lot of odd faces when he conducts, often looking like Jerry Lewis.
This was a great concert, by the way. Shaham played his heart out on the two "arias" of the Violin Concerto, and worked up a very energetic ending to the finale. The piece sounds more "severe" in live performance because it's scored so thinly that sound is only eminating from isolated pockets of the stage.
The Fairy's Kiss is a colorful showcase for the full wind section. You don't realize, until you see the musicians performing, just how much time the strings sit there with nothing to play. He only uses them when it really counts. The ensemble never sounds undernourished, though. This ballet is probably just a little too long to be played in full, but I feel that the Divertimento just doesn't do it justice. Too many of my favorite passages have wound up on the cutting room floor, and it never works its way up to the emotional core of the score. The full ballet climaxes with a more or less intact arrangement of "None but the Lonely Heart", the only Tchaikovsky material to survive the Stravinskyan deconstructing and rethinking process. I can understand why Stravinksy didn't want to include such a recognizable Tchaikovsky hit in his own suite, but without it, the music never completes its dramatic and emotional arc, leaving the listener (this listener in any case) unsatisfied.
Quote from: sul G on March 01, 2009, 06:12:55 AM
Who, Mark? Yes, I presume he must have done.
For some reason, I laughed at that even though it was awful...
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on March 01, 2009, 06:41:06 AM
Very much so. I was sitting in one of the chorister seats, meaning the section behind the orchestra where the chorus sits when they do works with chorus. I enjoy sitting there because you get to see the musicians at work, look over their shoulders and read the music on their stands, plus you get to see the conductor's facial expressions. Lintu makes a lot of odd faces when he conducts, often looking like Jerry Lewis.
This was a great concert, by the way. Shaham played his heart out on the two "arias" of the Violin Concerto, and worked up a very energetic ending to the finale. The piece sounds more "severe" in live performance because it's scored so thinly that sound is only eminating from isolated pockets of the stage. The Fairy's Kiss is a colorful showcase for the full wind section. You don't realize, until you see the musicians performing, just how much time the strings sit there with nothing to play. He only uses them when it really counts. The ensemble never sounds undernourished, though. This ballet is probably just a little too long to be played in full, but I feel that the Divertimento just doesn't do it justice. Too many of my favorite passages have wound up on the cutting room floor, and it never works its way up to the emotional core of the score. The full ballet climaxes with a more or less intact arrangement of "None but the Lonely Heart", the only Tchaikovsky material to survive the Stravinskyan deconstructing and rethinking process. I can understand why Stravinksy didn't want to include such a recognizable Tchaikovsky hit in his own suite, but without it, the music never completes its dramatic and emotional arc, leaving the listener (this listener in any case) unsatisfied.
I never even heard of chorister seats until I read this. Interesting... think of the ways you could distract fellow audience members while the orchestra is playing a piece you don't like. >:D
Quote
The piece sounds more "severe" in live performance because it's scored so thinly that sound is only eminating from isolated pockets of
the stage.
Must be awkward performing some of Stravinsky (the thinner-scored stuff) and pointillistic stuff like Webern. I suppose everyone has to have the guts of a soloist for it to all work out...
Quote from: G Forever on March 01, 2009, 06:17:53 PM
Must be awkward performing some of Stravinsky (the thinner-scored stuff) and pointillistic stuff like Webern. I suppose everyone has to have the guts of a soloist for it to all work out...
Believe me, every orchestral wind player has to have the guts of a soloist, for all music!
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on March 01, 2009, 06:41:57 PM
Believe me, every orchestral wind player has to have the guts of a soloist, for all music!
...with very poorly orchestrated music as an exception? Like when they add an orchestra to a popular music song so you can't even hear the winds? 8)
Quote from: G Forever on March 01, 2009, 06:43:31 PM
...with very poorly orchestrated music as an exception? Like when they add an orchestra to a popular music song so you can't even hear the winds? 8)
When you're on stage and you and you alone are responsible for playing a specific part, and the conductor expects you to play it absolutely perfectly, not too loud, not too soft, with the right expression, just as he's rehearsed it, you've got to have nerves of steel.
I wish I understood Stravinsky better. I almost feel like an idiot with so many brilliant minds expounding his genius. I listened to many of the works mentioned here but the ones I have the most respect for is when he borrowed from someone else.
I guess I must be some kind of musical nematoid!
Quote from: G Forever on February 27, 2009, 07:05:19 PM
Well, I've gone through quite a few of the CDs, but still have several to listen to.
I've listened to The Song of the Nightingale twice now, and it's just a jaw-dropping piece. I'm surprised it's not more popular than it is. The orchestration is unbelievable- and he uses every technique in the book at that time. He even has major parts for violin to play in a high position on the G String, without glissando or vibrato, and it sounds like a completely different instrument.
A couple others that have caught my attention are:
Les Noces (what a sound!),
Renard (strange attraction to this one- not sure what it is, maybe it has something to do with me listening to the opening score example and explanation of his heterophonic technique... I don't know. Just listening to it gives me this incredible feeling, like nostalgia, even though I haven't heard it before.... but what if I have?) 8)
Persephone (just pure beauty, all there is to say)
Those are both winners. Les Noces is, to my ears, one of the greatest works of the last Century. I was just listening to Nightingale again, and really love it.
Is the Song of the Nightingale related to the opera, The Nightingale?
Quote from: Guido on March 03, 2009, 02:17:06 PM
Is the Song of the Nightingale related to the opera, The Nightingale?
Yes, sir. It's basically an orchestral suite from the opera.
Oh nice, I've always been a fan of the opera - must check out the suite.
TTT
This thread had nearly drifted to p. 4! Where's the outrage? ;D
Ray's purchase (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg285372.html#msg285372) is a timely reminder . . . the first I heard the Symphony in Three Movements performed live, it was played by the Cleveland Orchestra at the Blossom Music Center (do they still play there in the summer?) Piece still gives me chills (it was one of the first Stravinsky scores I bought at Patelson's on West 56th street).
And goodness, the Symphony of Psalms is one of the pinnacles of 20th-c. music.
I just heard the Symphony in Three Movements this past weekend. Actually I saw it danced by the New York City Ballet, which was on tour and performing at the Kennedy Center. The choreography by Balanchine was very musical, but I had a hard time paying any attention to it, such is the power of the music. The City Ballet has a wonderful orchestra and their performance would have been worth the price of admission even without the visual aspect. The playing had real punch to it, along with clarity and delicacy when needed.
The ballet opens with a diagonal line of female dancers in white. The principle couple comes out during the bouncy episode with the solo piano, which has the effect of making everything before that sound like an introduction. The slow movement is danced only by the couple. The climactic moment of the finale was very effectively staged with the whole company lined up in rows doing various movements in synch with the irregular rhythms in the orchestra.
One thing I noticed for the first time (even after all these years), was the introduction of a reference to Le Sacre just after the opening tutti of the last movement (EF|G--FEDEF|G--FEDEF etc.).
I got a great first impression so far of the Rattle/BP recording of the Symphony in Three and the Symphony of Psalms, although I had to postpone my listening to do a deadline at work. :-\
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on March 13, 2009, 07:29:13 AM
I just heard the Symphony in Three Movements this past weekend. Actually I saw it danced by the New York City Ballet, which was on tour and performing at the Kennedy Center.
Very nice! That first occasion of mine at the Blossom Center, it was danced by the SF Ballet.
And I agree, who can pay attention to the dancers, with music that grabs your collar like that? :)
Quote from: KammerNuss on March 13, 2009, 09:32:37 AM
I got a great first impression so far of the Rattle/BP recording of the Symphony in Three and the Symphony of Psalms, although I had to postpone my listening to do a deadline at work. :-\
The first CDs I had of
Stravinsky were
Rattle/CBSO recordings!
Quote from: ' on March 13, 2009, 12:20:26 PM
So is that spot in Pulcinella that sounds so much like it came from Mahler 4 intentional, and Ives couldn't have intended to quote Mark Dinning's Teen Angel (I pulled you out and we were safe" in the St Gaudens Mvt Three Places in New England (or could he?)
Presumably the Ives thing is a joke?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2009, 11:34:25 AM
The first CDs I had of Stravinsky were Rattle/CBSO recordings!
Well, this is only my second Stravinsky CD. I am mightily impressed, just on the first listen of these three symphonies. I'm looking forward to giving it another spin! :)
I'll have to look out that song!
Have been listening to the Symphony in Three Movements and The Nightingale, prompted by this thread - both superb and I can see myself loving them both as much as all the Stravinsky I already know - the boxed set just holds so many treasures!
cheap tricks?
ah.
Not sure I'm convinced by this Song of the Nightingale piece... The opera is much better I think. It all seem a bit fragmented and never really flows like the three great ballet scores that preceeded it.
Anyone have the Mustonin/Van Keulen music for piano/violin philips 2cd?
Quote from: Guido on March 16, 2009, 03:53:14 PM
Not sure I'm convinced by this Song of the Nightingale piece... The opera is much better I think.
I certainly agree that the opera is better!
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 04:34:31 PM
i've noticed some of the very minor Stravinsky works I've listened to are pretty much horrible...
Oh! Which?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 12, 2009, 04:37:36 PM
Oh! Which?
Ok, I'll admit I haven't listened to them all a bunch of times yet, but after a couple of listens, the ones I'm referring to include much of the chamber music- stuff like the Duo Concertant, Piano Sonata, Movements for Piano and Orchestra, etc.
To me, the first two sound like some kid trying to imitate Stravinsky's style and ending up sounding very dull and boring. The third is the same thing, except Schoenberg is the one being imitated. ;D
Hopefully, I find something to like about them over time...
What do you think about these pieces, Karl?
As per the other thread, I don't think Stravinsky was on the level with Prokofiev.
As for those pieces, I like the Duo Concertante. The Piano Sonata is alright. I don't think very highly of Rake's Progress, Mavra, the Sonata for 2 pianos, and many of the proto-serial works, including the Movements for piano and orchestra.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on April 12, 2009, 05:55:27 PM
As per the other thread, I don't think Stravinsky was on the level with Prokofiev.
Well, although (again) I don't view the matter at all as needing to have caricatures of the two composers duke it out . . . there is a case to be made for
Stravinsky being "the greatest composer of the twentieth century" (accepting for the sake of discussion that such a designation might be fixed). I don't know how one might plausibly make such a claim of
Prokofiev.
Mavra is wonderful. I like the
Movements for piano and orchestra a great deal, too. For all its brevity, the
Symphonies of Wind Instruments is a seminal masterpiece; and aside from that (so to speak), I find it pure delight to listen to.
In what sense is there more a case to be made for Stravinsky as the "greatest composer of the 20th century" than Prokofiev?
Step aside Mr. Prokofiev and Mr. Stravinsky. Please make way for Mr. Shostakovich! 0:)
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on April 12, 2009, 06:11:14 PM
In what sense is there more a case to be made for Stravinsky as the "greatest composer of the 20th century" than Prokofiev?
He was MUCH more influential, for one.
It's curious that you were very reluctant to take a stand in the "Stravinsky vs. Prokofiev" thread, but you've taken a stand now.
If you think that melody is the most important aspect of music, then that makes you more likely to pick Prokofiev. If you're drawn to serial works, then that probably makes you more likely to pick Stravinsky.
I don't judge a composer based on their degree of influence. If I did, I'd judge Schoenberg or Stravinsky more highly.
To me, the size of a composer's output matters. This makes me think less highly of Stravinsky or the Viennese school than Prokofiev.
You're absolutely right. Stravinsky was more influential than Prokofiev. I don't consider that a measure of a composer's strength.
Schoenberg was likely a more influential composer than Stravinsky. Does this mean that Schoenberg was more important or even greater than Stravinsky? Stravinsky was also likely the most influenced among the great 20th century composers. Does this mean that he was a lesser composer because of it?
Even a Prokofiev-hater like Richard Taruskin acknowledges that Prokofiev had a talent for melody that was unsurpassed in the 20th century. If you consider that at the end of their lives, both Stravinsky and Schoenberg acknowledged the supremacy of melody, then you have a reasonable argument that Prokofiev is the greatest of 20th century composers.
Karl Henning may say that it is implausible to make an argument for Prokofiev being the greatest of 20th century composers, but I don't think what I've said in the previous paragraph is implausible. Does anyone think I've said something implausible?
Perhaps it is only implausible in Karl Henning's mind. At any rate, it looks like Karl is just as capable of immaturity as all the rest of us.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on April 12, 2009, 06:40:51 PMIf you think that melody is the most important aspect of music, then that makes you more likely to pick Prokofiev. If you're drawn to serial works, then that probably makes you more likely to pick Stravinsky.
That is a peculiar statement, but at least you are consistent in reducing the matter to improbable simplicities.
QuoteI don't judge a composer based on their degree of influence. If I did, I'd judge Schoenberg or Stravinsky more highly.
Degree of influence is a valid artistic question; it does in fact
mean something artistic, when we acknowledge that
Beethoven's music was more influential than that of
Dittersdorf. I'll say for the hundredth time that I do not feel any need to "determine" that either
Stravinsky or
Prokofiev is "greater" than the other. I don't know when either
Stravinsky or
Schoenberg had occasion to slap you around at a formative age, but you should simply admire
Prokofiev for the music he wrote, rather than expend pointless energy in "proving" that he's "greater" than either
Stravinsky or
Schoenberg.
QuoteTo me, the size of a composer's output matters. This makes me think less highly of Stravinsky or the Viennese school than Prokofiev.
So you think more highly of
Telemann than of
Prokofiev, right? And more highly of
Haydn as a symphonist than of
Prokofiev, right?
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on April 12, 2009, 06:45:35 PM
Schoenberg was likely a more influential composer than Stravinsky.
(a) How should we "measure" such a thing?
(b) What would be the point? I mean, a comparison such as "was
Stravinsky more influential than
Prokofiev?" is comparatively easy (though we agree that the answer does not "mean" that one is "greater" than the other). But both
Schoenberg and
Stravinsky have been seminal influences in music. What does it matter, which of
them was "more influential"?
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on April 12, 2009, 07:10:55 PM
Even a Prokofiev-hater like Richard Taruskin acknowledges that Prokofiev had a talent for melody that was unsurpassed in the 20th century. If you consider that at the end of their lives, both Stravinsky and Schoenberg acknowledged the supremacy of melody, then you have a reasonable argument that Prokofiev is the greatest of 20th century composers.
Karl Henning may say that it is implausible to make an argument for Prokofiev being the greatest of 20th century composers, but I don't think what I've said in the previous paragraph is implausible. Does anyone think I've said something implausible?
If a bizarre grasp of the facts, and a penchant for eccentric irrelevance, are related to implausibility, then, yes, what you've said is implausible.
Stravinsky and
Schoenberg were melodic composers throughout their careers; your cartoon of "deathbed melodic conversions" here is . . . weird.
So
Prokofiev had a talent for melody; sure, it's one of things (and only one of the things) in his music we all admire and love. (And, by the way, a talent for melody is not so easy to extricate from a talent for
other dimensions of music, as you seem to imply.) I missed the memo that we can basically forget all other musical considerations, if there's a pretty tune involved.
Be a good chap, remind us all where that pronouncement is posted?
TIA.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 04:46:38 PM
Ok, I'll admit I haven't listened to them all a bunch of times yet, but after a couple of listens, the ones I'm referring to include much of the chamber music- stuff like the Duo Concertant, Piano Sonata, Movements for Piano and Orchestra, etc.
To me, the first two sound like some kid trying to imitate Stravinsky's style and ending up sounding very dull and boring. The third is the same thing, except Schoenberg is the one being imitated. ;D
Hopefully, I find something to like about them over time...
What do you think about these pieces, Karl?
Gosh, you don't like the
Duo Concertant,
Greg? My only complaint is with the historical recording . . .
Stravinsky's piano is almost muffled in the background. A pleasure to hear
Szigeti, though, of course.
Early on, I got very well acquainted with L'histoire (I was in a stage production at my undergrad college). All of Stravinsky's stylistic periods were early imprints for me.
But then, of course, there's pretty tunes a-plenty in Stravinsky.
Ten fine melodies one recalls right off:
1. The March from L'histoire du soldat
2. The Lacrimosa from Requiem Canticles
3. All of the Cantata, really, but let's settle on "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day"
4. The Overture to Mavra
5. The Bridgegroom's song on the last page of Svadebka
6. The Gloria from the Mass
7. The Notturno from the Concerto per due pianoforti
8. More instances than can be briefly mentioned, in the Symphony in Three Movements and the Symphony in C.
9. The Alleluia which concludes A Sermon, A Narrative & A Prayer.
10. And, of course, the Alleluia at the end of the Symphony of Psalms.
. . . and this list makes a point of avoiding "the usual suspects," i.e., the folk melody borrowings in Le sacre, Petrushka & L'oiseau, and the 'found sources' of the neo-classical works.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on April 12, 2009, 06:40:51 PM
If you think that melody is the most important aspect of music, then that makes you more likely to pick Prokofiev. If you're drawn to serial works, then that probably makes you more likely to pick Stravinsky.
I don't subscribe to that.
Nice posts, Karl. I would add to that list the opening melody to "Renard." 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2009, 04:34:57 AM
That is a peculiar statement, but at least you are consistent in reducing the matter to improbable simplicities.
Degree of influence is a valid artistic question; it does in fact mean something artistic, when we acknowledge that Beethoven's music was more influential than that of Dittersdorf. I'll say for the hundredth time that I do not feel any need to "determine" that either Stravinsky or Prokofiev is "greater" than the other. I don't know when either Stravinsky or Schoenberg had occasion to slap you around at a formative age, but you should simply admire Prokofiev for the music he wrote, rather than expend pointless energy in "proving" that he's "greater" than either Stravinsky or Schoenberg.
So you think more highly of Telemann than of Prokofiev, right? And more highly of Haydn as a symphonist than of Prokofiev, right?
(a) How should we "measure" such a thing?
(b) What would be the point? I mean, a comparison such as "was Stravinsky more influential than Prokofiev?" is comparatively easy (though we agree that the answer does not "mean" that one is "greater" than the other). But both Schoenberg and Stravinsky have been seminal influences in music. What does it matter, which of them was "more influential"?
If a bizarre grasp of the facts, and a penchant for eccentric irrelevance, are related to implausibility, then, yes, what you've said is implausible. Stravinsky and Schoenberg were melodic composers throughout their careers; your cartoon of "deathbed melodic conversions" here is . . . weird.
So Prokofiev had a talent for melody; sure, it's one of things (and only one of the things) in his music we all admire and love. (And, by the way, a talent for melody is not so easy to extricate from a talent for other dimensions of music, as you seem to imply.) I missed the memo that we can basically forget all other musical considerations, if there's a pretty tune involved.
Be a good chap, remind us all where that pronouncement is posted?
TIA.
Talk about reducing the matter to improbable simplicities.
Influence, a talent for melody, how much great music a composer wrote are all variables that influence the degree to which someone might respect a composer. Karl's suggesting here that I've chosen which variable is most important for the rest of you.
But what really galls is your suggestion that a talent for melody is not a valid consideration of musical quality, while the degree of a composer's influence is. But maybe other people have an opinion.
I just realized this is the same discussion going on 3 threads at the same time...
I'm trying to close it in the "Prokofiev vs. Stravinsky" section.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 14, 2009, 06:55:08 PM
I just realized this is the same discussion going on 3 threads at the same time...
Right . . . reminds one of A Certain Participant who tends to make every single thread a discussion of
Pelléas et Mélisande. And Another Certain Participant who (until recent sobriety) tended to make every single thread a discussion of
Elgar.
Now, a little bird tells me, half of the threads are
somehow going to morph into discussions of
Prokofiev.
BTW, that is why I brought this question (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,167.msg297999.html#msg297999) here.
Quote from: ' on April 15, 2009, 06:04:25 AM
I would add that, to my ear, Stravinsky's music is less often "about the melody" in the way that it can be in Tchaikovsky, Prokofieff, Sibelius, and many others, and when the melody is at the front of our attention in IS, it seldom stays there for long. Although one of his pieces may leave a melody in my head, I never get the sense that the piece was just a stage for a stirring, moving, poignant, or heroic melody as one can say about other pieces. So if you go to IS with an expectation that such a melody is necessary, either for your personal musical pleasure and for the collective musical satisfaction of all right thinking music lovers, you are in the wrong queue.
Excellent observations.
Don't you just love that closing " ' "signature?
I should end everything I write with a capital G... G
Quote from: Bahamut on April 15, 2009, 02:54:29 PM
Don't you just love that closing " ' "signature?
I should end everything I write with a capital G... G
Yes, I have remarked on its brilliance too.
I'm not being demeaning here though it could be interpreted that way, but does anyone else see some influence of Poulenc on Stravinsky vis a vis the Sonata for 2 Pianos, Serenade, etc?
Nick
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on April 18, 2009, 12:11:57 AM
I'm not being demeaning here though it could be interpreted that way, but does anyone else see some influence of Poulenc on Stravinsky vis a vis the Sonata for 2 Pianos, Serenade, etc?
Nick
Why would that be demeaning?
Stravinsky's Violin Concerto is fast becoming one of my favorites of all violin concerti. It may not be on the same grand scale as Beethoven's, Brahms' or Tchaikovsky, but there is just something unique about it. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Quote from: ChamberNut on April 18, 2009, 06:00:18 AM
Stravinsky's Violin Concerto is fast becoming one of my favorites of all violin concerti. It may not be on the same grand scale as Beethoven's, Brahms' or Tchaikovsky, but there is just something unique about it. I can't quite put my finger on it.
It strikes me that this 'can't quite put my finger on it' is one of Stravinsky's special qualities - his thought is so fleet-footed, he's so reluctant to linger on a beautiful idea but is always taking it to new places. (Like Beethoven, Stravinsky isn't really about the idea and more about the process.) So the music often escapes from the listener before its essence has quite been grasped, which means that he (well, me, anyway) keeps coming back for more.
Quote from: sul G on April 18, 2009, 06:11:04 AM
It strikes me that this 'can't quite put my finger on it' is one of Stravinsky's special qualities - his thought is so fleet-footed, he's so reluctant to linger on a beautiful idea but is always taking it to new places. (Like Beethoven, Stravinsky isn't really about the idea and more about the process.) So the music often escapes from the listener before its essence has quite been grasped, which means that he (well, me, anyway) keeps coming back for more.
The other part of this thought is that the ideas he doesn't linger on are so arresting that you feel obliged to come back to them.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on April 18, 2009, 08:12:51 AM
The other part of this thought is that the ideas he doesn't linger on are so arresting that you feel obliged to come back to them.
I think you're right. :) I have to keep coming back to this Violin Concerto. I like all of it, but particularly the arresting (if I can steal your word) third movement. 0:)
Quote from: ' on April 18, 2009, 03:17:36 AM
Doesn't seem demeaning to me either. I'd be interested in some details in where you sense an influence. There is a famous similarity between the opening of the Serenade (1925) and the opening of Poulenc's Gloria (1959), but there is an pre-Serenade piano piece by Poulenc that I remember hearing (but at the moment, not which, an intermezzo?) with roughly the same theme (you know how Poulenc recycled so much of his own music). Around that time, Stravinsky (like many others) wrote a lot of short piano pieces that remind me some of Poulenc and Satie, in part because of the genre, which I think attracted Stravinsky because there was a publishing market. After that publishing market fell off (due largely to proliferation of disc recording), he pretty much stopped writing little piano pieces. His first attempt at commercial recordings was of such pieces (unreleased Brunswicks, 1925), and the Serenade was written so that each mvt would fit on each side of a disc.'
What I find remarkable is how often, and how brazenly Poulenc steals from Stravinsky. The Serenade in A/Gloria connection is one example. Somewhere in
Dialogues of the Carmelites is a several measure chunk taken straight from
Symphonies of Wind Instruments. There are others..
Quote from: sul G on April 18, 2009, 06:11:04 AM
It strikes me that this 'can't quite put my finger on it' is one of Stravinsky's special qualities - his thought is so fleet-footed, he's so reluctant to linger on a beautiful idea but is always taking it to new places. (Like Beethoven, Stravinsky isn't really about the idea and more about the process.) So the music often escapes from the listener before its essence has quite been grasped, which means that he (well, me, anyway) keeps coming back for more.
I'm astounded at how accurately this summarises my feelings of his music (though would never have been able to say so consicely or eloquently). 0:) Cheers!
Rejoice in the Box!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2009, 12:21:30 PM
Rejoice in the Box!
That is one thing at least that you and James have in common - love for that "big box o' Stavinsky"! :)
And the shades, don't forget the shades!
Just a bit of fun, really. (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/05/objection-sustained.html)
What are the opinions among Stravinskyites with regard to Rake's Progress?
I just don't find the work very interesting. Most of the rhythms don't hold any special appeal for me although they do in other Stravinsky works, and I've never found myself walking away and enjoying a good tune from this opera. Musically, some of the scenes (like that with the game of cards) seem to drag. The use of recitative seems a bit forced and awkward. I certainly wish we'd hear this less than the Cantata or Persephone, which hold much more appeal for me.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on May 20, 2009, 05:52:33 PM
What are the opinions among Stravinskyites with regard to Rake's Progress?
I don't consider myself a
Stravinskyite . . . but since I inaugurated this thread, I shall hazard some answer.
The first two or three times I heard the piece (incidents spread out over a couple of decades), it held no special appeal for me. One of the drivers for my purchase of the
Stravinsky's Own Box (although, face it, the price was right, and the historical/aesthetic interest sufficed) was, curiosity to see if the
maestro's own recording of
The Rake's Progress might illustrate the opera for me. And, in fact, I do like much better (and think more highly of) the
Progress as a consequence of listening to this performance.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891I just don't find the work very interesting. Most of the rhythms don't hold any special appeal for me although they do in other Stravinsky works, and I've never found myself walking away and enjoying a good tune from this opera.
If you don't find it interesting, you don't (I didn't, particularly, the first several times, see above).
The fact of not finding oneself
enjoying a good tune, is totally beside the point. A good tune is only one of many possible indicators of musical excellence. And there's a goodly amount of piffle in the world, which shows
a good tune one may without cultural guilt enjoy.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891Musically, some of the scenes (like that with the game of cards) seem to drag. The use of recitative seems a bit forced and awkward.
I think that's largely going to depend on the performance. But, again, you offer your impressions (which as such, cannot be argued with, of course). Your impressions of these elements could possibly change over time.
Myself, I have no trouble with either the scale/pace of the card game, nor with the deliberate (and, I think, charming) reference to
recitativo secco.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891I certainly wish we'd hear this less than the Cantata or Persephone, which hold much more appeal for me.
I can agree with a modification of this sentiment; and I should rejoice in more frequent performances of both the
Cantata and
Perséphone.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on May 20, 2009, 05:52:33 PM
What are the opinions among Stravinskyites with regard to Rake's Progress?
I dozed off during the DVD and will likely donate it to the local library; don't know whether I want to try another go at this work, or at least at this particular performance.
Re: the Violin Concerto, I'll be hearing that (1961 revision) next season with the Baltimore SO and happen to have a spare ticket so will be looking for a home for it next April. (Actually picked that more for the premiere of a new work -- Leshnoff
Starburst -- but will be glad to hear Shaham in the VC.)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 21, 2009, 05:11:06 AM
Stravinskyite . . .
Ahh, that's Stravinsky gone all Lithuanian!
Quote from: owlice on May 21, 2009, 05:19:06 AM
I dozed off during the DVD and will likely donate it to the local library . . . .
Just what local libraries need: more dozing ;)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 21, 2009, 05:21:24 AM
Just what local libraries need: more dozing ;)
Now, now, SOMEone may like it!
I'd like to get a video of
Oedipus Rex at some point, or better, see it live; I've stayed awake through that!
Quote from: owlice on May 21, 2009, 05:29:51 AM
Now, now, SOMEone may like it!
Yes, one man's Gilda is another man's Micaela . . . .
Yeah, Oedipus Rex is more interesting to me. Nightingale is a total masterpiece. I assume there's lots of people here who will be out at the Gergiev Stravinsky festival next season?
Have any of you heard the narration for The Flood in that big old box of Stravinsky? It's very funny and slapstick. Some CD reviewer said, I think, "it is difficult to take the bald narrations seriously, particularly when Laurence Harvey sanctimoniously keeps talking of the will of 'Gud.'"
Well, The Flood was an experiment in many ways (and I, for one, find it artistically impressive and admirable for someone closing in on 80 years to take fresh risks). The Stravinsky's Own rendition necessarily has a certain historical interest . . . but I do think that the Knussen recording is an improvement in certain crucial respects 8)
Probably I prefer the Craft recording of Threni, and the Jas O'Donnell recording of the Canticum sacrum; they are expertly executed, inspiringly sharp, and in impeccable sound. Still, the accounts in The Big Box are great in their own right.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on May 21, 2009, 06:26:16 AM
Yeah, Oedipus Rex is more interesting to me.
Prokofiev, did you know of
the thread on that work from the old forum (http://"http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4130.0.html")? That thread was my introduction to the work.
Aye, that was one of a select group of especially spiffy threads in The Old Place!
We have our fun, certainly!
Only the Third Viennese School die youngQuote from: Billy JoelI'd rather laugh with Stravinsky than cry with Schoenberg.
No one has mentioned the Septet, one of my gnarly favs.
Currently I have the Salonen/Sony disc with the piano ctos, "Stravinsky in Hollywood" MTT/RCA, the Decca/Ashkenazy 2fer which includes chamber music and more Hollywood/American stuff, and Mutter/DG (great cd with Lutoslawski).
No one has mentioned middling pieces such as Dumbarton Oaks or Concerto in D, not all that great, but...
And I haven't seen much love here for Stravinsky's "Webern period", The Movements, the Double Canon (SQ), the Epitaphalium (trio), the Variations,...I'm not sure HOW many pieces fall into this category. Crystalline (my new fav word)!
Also, I can't seem to keep his late vocal works seperated: Canticum Sacrum, Threni, Requiem Canticles, and isn't there one or two more (Dylan Thomas?)? All I've heard is that Hyperion disc which I recall seemed a saturated sonics wise, blurring the precision?
I do find his Norwegian Moods (not very Nordic), Danses Concertantes, and his Hollywood-type suites rather dull (most of the second disc of the Decca 2fer)...well, no one has mentioned them really, so I expect you all feel about the same here.
I'm surprised so many of you are "just" getting into IS so late (thread started in 2007). I thought EVERYONE had the Mutter disc!
I must say, IS has the most fractured commentary on the concept of a string quartet cycle. His three pieces (3 pieces, Concertino, Double Canon) last about as long as a normal breezy SQ (@15min), and certainly make little sense out of context with the rest of his output. I guess I could have seen him write a substantial 1940s style neo-classical SQ that probably would have sounded "white" and probably not that exciting, perhaps like blanched Hindemith, or more likely like Chavez's No.3, a Martha Graham inspired SQ.
btw- which Symphony (in C, or 3 mvmts) has that awesome fading ending that ends on "that" shimmering chord? I'm remembering IS's own recording that must be in the "big box." I think that's my fav ending to almost any work. I used to keep rewinding it over and over. Anyone feel the same way?
Picture IS, Reger, and Babbitt standing next to one another!!! Harhar...
I feel the love for the last movement of Dumbarton Oaks-- very powerful, compelling, and logically satisfying.
If you include Agon among the 12 tone works, I think its one of his finest compositions. What is so brilliant is how he took the form, and some liberties with it, and made it his own.
Quote from: jowcol on May 21, 2009, 10:15:12 AM
If you include Agon among the 12 tone works, I think its one of his finest compositions.
I think it one of his finest, regardless 8) ;)
I like Agon a lot, too, and that "Stravinsky in Hollywood" cd with MTT has an excellent version - the piece is very hard to play well.
BTW I'm inrigued to see Bily Joel made it to GMG
Quote from: Herman on May 21, 2009, 10:29:20 AM
BTW I'm inrigued to see Bily Joel made it to GMG
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/5/21/128874048709525959.jpg)
Someone managed to misquote him, too.
Boulez is not a Stravinsky fan?
Oh yeah, I should have guessed.
Ah, well . . . I cannot much interest myself in the interstices of Boulez's dislikes.
I really dislike Boulez.
Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on May 21, 2009, 06:02:58 PM
I really dislike Boulez.
I prefer him as composer; don't have much use for him as an opinionator.
I agree with you there.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 21, 2009, 06:04:53 PM
I prefer him as composer; don't have much use for him as an opinionator.
or as a conductor, surely?
Quote from: Herman on May 25, 2009, 01:28:05 AM
or as a conductor, surely?
Well, in the 'voting with my feet' sense,
Herman. I don't own many recordings he's conducted; nor have I seen him live.
I wonder who, if anyone, will conduct a fresh recording of Threni.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 21, 2009, 09:36:04 AM
Also, I can't seem to keep his late vocal works seperated: Canticum Sacrum, Threni, Requiem Canticles . . .
You don't
mean it? To my ear these three have perfectly distinct profiles.
We can dream, '
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2009, 05:06:30 AM
But then, of course, there's pretty tunes a-plenty in Stravinsky.
Ten fine melodies one recalls right off:
1. The March from L'histoire du soldat
2. The Lacrimosa from Requiem Canticles
3. All of the Cantata, really, but let's settle on "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day"
4. The Overture to Mavra
5. The Bridgegroom's song on the last page of Svadebka
6. The Gloria from the Mass
7. The Notturno from the Concerto per due pianoforti
8. More instances than can be briefly mentioned, in the Symphony in Three Movements and the Symphony in C.
9. The Alleluia which concludes A Sermon, A Narrative & A Prayer.
10. And, of course, the Alleluia at the end of the Symphony of Psalms.
. . . and this list makes a point of avoiding "the usual suspects," i.e., the folk melody borrowings in Le sacre, Petrushka & L'oiseau, and the 'found sources' of the neo-classical works.
One of the greatest melodic works of Stravinsky is his Pastorale-- that is really lovely-- it's been on repeat this morning. Although I would certain rank Prokofiev's gifts with melody much higher.
Quote
We can dream, '
Curious. The post to which I replied there has been deleted (by the author, I presume, as there was no offense in't that I knew of).
Ah, well.
Quote from: jowcol on June 08, 2009, 09:02:46 AM
One of the greatest melodic works of Stravinsky is his Pastorale-- that is really lovely-- it's been on repeat this morning. Although I would certain rank Prokofiev's gifts with melody much higher.
I know I've listened to the
Pastorale; but I don't recall a note of it. Where 20 other pieces of
Stravinsky's, were memorable from an initial hearing.
Just an observation. I haven't sussed out its significance (yet).
Is "Le Baiser de la Fee" a neoclassical or a neoromantic work?
Honk if you've heard the "Igor's Boogie" tracks on Burnt Weenie Sandwich
In your opinion, should pieces like Le Baiser de la Fee, Pulcinella, Suite Italienne be hyphenated (i.e. Tchaikovsky-Stravinsky, etc.)? Be cited as an arrangement (i.e. Tchaikovsky [arr. Stravinsky])? Credited with Stravinsky's name only? Why or why not?
So you would credit the music with only Stravinsky's name?
I think Stravinsky should get the same kind of crediting treatment that everyone else does. There's, what, 20-30 different pieces that are extracted from Tchaikovsky in that work? If it were any other composer, it would be listed as an arrangement. A lot of Respighi's works are like this, and they're listed with Respighi at a latter part of the hyphen.
In Pulcinella, there's 21 musical numbers with 21 different sources from Baroque composers.
I like Stravinsky (not as much as some of you), but he's overrated, and he should be looked at in a more even-handed way.
Melodies are a big deal, and a lot of these transcriptions are very straight-forward
If they did, in fact, use a theme from Stravinsky, they should have credited him.
Rhythms are different from melodies. Taking the theme from Sleeping Beauty is different than using 4/4, like in Sleeping Beauty.
Taking one melody is different from a composition composed entirely out of other people's melodies. Even when you do take one melody, we have titles like Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge. This is important.
If a composer doesn't credit the person in the title, (ala. Tchaikovsky: Suite for Orchestra, No.4, Op. 61 "Mozartiana," etc.), he should do it the way everyone else does it, with Tchaikovsky (arr. Stravinsky): Le Basir de la Fee. I don't particularly respect Stravinsky for keeping quite on folk-based material for his most famous scores either.
I'll be back later tonight--errands.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2009, 03:11:36 PM
I like Stravinsky (not as much as some of you), but he's overrated . . . .
Is he? How do we try that assertion, pray?
QuoteMelodies are a big deal, and a lot of these transcriptions are very straight-forward
If you think that
Pulcinella and
Le baiser de la fée are "straight-forward transcriptions," then what is "overrated" here is your musical analysis.
Good errand-running to you!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2009, 04:55:40 PMGood errand-running to you!
Try to calm down.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2009, 04:55:40 PMIs he? How do we try that assertion, pray?
How do we try the assertion for anything having to do with the quality of art?
Maybe one way you can try making qualitative assertions about music is to actually listen to all the works of certain composers before making comparative statements about absolute greatness.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2009, 04:55:40 PMIf you think that Pulcinella and Le baiser de la fée are "straight-forward transcriptions," then what is "overrated" here is your musical analysis.
Overrated (adj): Anything that is given too much credit and hype.
Here's a quote from Robert Craft: "The only original Stravinsky music in
Pulcinella is a short bridge section and the introduction to the Tarantella. . . . The
Pulcinella Gavotta and its Variations, the Toccata (from the Seventh Sonata for Clavier), the Tarantella, the Overture and the other pieces from the First, Second, and Eighth Sonatas for Two Violins, the cut time 'Troika' (Scherzino), the Serenata (Polidoro's aria from the first act of Il Flamino), and the Minuet (another opera aria) are in substance only slightly altered from the originals; moreover, Stravinsky has incorporated most of the pieces in their entireties."
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2009, 06:06:29 PM
Try to calm down.
Pray, who is anything other than calm?
Quote from: NickMaybe one way you can try making qualitative assertions about music is to actually listen to all the works of certain composers before making comparative statements about absolute greatness.
So, you have listened to all of
Stravinsky's works, and you are pronouncing to the world that he is "overrated"; and anyone who contests your statement (which means scarcely anything, save that your preferences are elsewhere), I suppose that person's "error" stems from the fact that he's actually listened to less of
Stravinsky's music than have you?
Quote from: NickOverrated (adj): Anything that is given too much credit and hype.
Oh! Someone who imagines that we lack a dictionary! Jolly good, pumping up your fatuity quotient!
Quote from: NickHere's a quote from Robert Craft: "The only original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella is a short bridge section and the introduction to the Tarantella. . . . The Pulcinella Gavotta and its Variations, the Toccata (from the Seventh Sonata for Clavier), the Tarantella, the Overture and the other pieces from the First, Second, and Eighth Sonatas for Two Violins, the cut time 'Troika' (Scherzino), the Serenata (Polidoro's aria from the first act of Il Flamino), and the Minuet (another opera aria) are in substance only slightly altered from the originals; moreover, Stravinsky has incorporated most of the pieces in their entireties."
Here's three pieces of news for you:
1.) I have read a great deal more that
Craft has had to say about the piece than this. And I've read a great deal that
Craft has had to say about
Le baiser de la fée, besides. In neither case does his commentary reduce facilely to "this piece is just straight-forward transcription."
2.) Specifically, this passage you have cited does not mean that
Pulcinella is "just straight-forward transcription."
3.) If
Pulcinella is only "straight-forward transcriptions," then put your musical intelligence where your mouth is: transcribe something (anything) straightforwardly, and it will be just as good, right?
Of course, it will! You can set to work anytime; we'll all await the musical result. If
Stravinsky's work here is "overrated," why then, your
only slight alterations from the original(s) will be just as good, won't they?
If you see no difference in the order of creative input which
Stravinsky applied to the source material for
Pulcinella, in comparison to (e.g.) his scoring of
Bach's Vom Himmel hoch Canonic Variations (which I am sure you have studied closely, since you're here 'correcting' the consensus by your revelation that
Stravinsky is "overrated"), then you have gauged your musical acumen quite sufficiently.
One of the variants on the old joke is,
How many drummers does it take to change a light-bulb?25: One to change the bulb, and 24 to claim, "Heck,
I can do that."
I see drumsticks in your hand,
Nick.
Quote from: ' on June 16, 2009, 01:55:15 PM
What do these pieces have in common (apart from the fact that they are by Stravinsky)?
Violin Concerto
Renard
Jeu de Cartes
Duo Concertant
Cantata
...
'
(I think Karl's going to get it')
Well, I was trying to do a little searching to test my guess.
Hmm. Let me mull . . . .
Quote from: ' on June 17, 2009, 03:46:48 AM
Note Google's special Greeting as a Prelude to your searches today.'
Nice, isn't it! And Tom Service in
The Guardian has good comments on the whole thing,
here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2009/jun/17/google-stravinsky).
--Bruce
Yes, although he sounds surprised that the art dept at Google isn't as good as Chagall 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PMSo, you have listened to all of Stravinsky's works, and you are pronouncing to the world that he is "overrated"; and anyone who contests your statement (which means scarcely anything, save that your preferences are elsewhere), I suppose that person's "error" stems from the fact that he's actually listened to less of Stravinsky's music than have you?
Hey Karl, what's your favorite recording of Prokofiev's Two Poems for Women's Voice and Orchestra, Op.7?
This seems like a "let's change the topic!" Clearly, I was referring to the fact that you haven't heard a lot of Prokofiev music.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PMOne of the variants on the old joke is, How many drummers does it take to change a light-bulb?
25: One to change the bulb, and 24 to claim, "Heck, I can do that."
I see drumsticks in your hand, Nick.
Now this you're actually right about. A drummer came over to my place yesterday to practice. I was actually a tap dancer and danced at (Broadway: Alice Tully Hall, Town Hall, Duke Ellington Theatre and Off-Broadway: Public Theatre, Village Gate) as a soloist.
I danced with a spoon man too at Alice Tully, I think. He had a lot of spoons.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PMOh! Someone who imagines that we lack a dictionary! Jolly good, pumping up your fatuity quotient!
Dear dumbass, why are you so stupid? I was saying that the best way to appreciate and assess a piece of music is to listen to it. If you're going to throw a temper-tantrum every time we engage in perfectly acceptable discourse, just leave out some of the bathroom humor.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM2.) Specifically, this passage you have cited does not mean that Pulcinella is "just straight-forward transcription."
Tell us then how a piece that does not contain any original music except a short bridge section and introduction to the Tarantella, with a source for each of its numbers, most of which are incorporated in their entireties, unaltered is an original piece of music.
So you've read Robert Craft. Point us to the page where tells us, "I take it back. There's more original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella other than a short bridge section and introduction to
Tarantella." Show me the page where he says that Stravinsky does not take the pieces in their entireties.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM3.) If Pulcinella is only "straight-forward transcriptions," then put your musical intelligence where your mouth is: transcribe something (anything) straightforwardly, and it will be just as good, right? Of course, it will! You can set to work anytime; we'll all await the musical result. If Stravinsky's work here is "overrated," why then, your only slight alterations from the original(s) will be just as good, won't they?
This is nonsense. Of course, if I take a CD of the best Verdi arias, taking out a note here and there from the second oboe, I'd have a pretty good program! I'd just slap my name to it, and somewhere on the last page of the notes, I'd say something about Verdi.
It was actually in conversation with a music Professor at Vassar College (and Stravinskyite) that we came to the conclusion that anyone else in the 20th century would not have gotten away with the kind of crediting that went on in
Pulcinella and
Le Basir de la Fee.
Quote from: Nick on June 17, 2009, 10:03:46 AM
It was actually in conversation with a music Professor at Vassar College (and Stravinskyite) that we came to the conclusion that anyone else in the 20th century would not have gotten away with the kind of crediting that went on in Pulcinella and Le Basir de la Fee.
Two people can agree on almost anything, of course. Except on spelling.
Quote from: Nick on June 17, 2009, 06:29:37 AM
Clearly, I was referring to the fact that you haven't heard a lot of Prokofiev music.
And your source for this "fact"?
*peeks head in. snorts. leaves*
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 17, 2009, 10:49:47 AMAnd your source for this "fact"?
About The Gambler, Op.24
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 07:05:49 AMI gave a slight listen to the opera (probably not the whole thing, either.
About The Fiery Angel, Op.37:
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 04, 2009, 03:56:29 AM
Once on a time (back in Buffalo) I did own a recording of the complete opera. The recording passed out of my possession before I could get to know it properly.
About music for piano solo:
Quote from: Nick on May 30, 2009, 04:06:14 PMBut basta, what about Sarcasms, Op.17; Things in Themselves, Op.45; Sonatinas, Op.54; Thoughts, Op.62? How did we have those absurd discussions on Stravinsky's and Prokofiev's relative merits with so much output unheard?
I've asked this a lot and have never gotten an answer.
About Winter Bonfire, Op.122:
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2009, 09:22:09 AMI need to revisit it . . . I think I've only listened to it once, and none too recently.
About the lieder:
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 21, 2009, 05:16:27 AMI've got the 3-disc (Delos?) box of the complete voice-&-piano works . . . I haven't quite listened to it all, yet, but I've greatly enjoyed everything I have heard. Especially The Ugly Duckling, wonderful!
Quote from: Nick on June 17, 2009, 11:23:11 AM
About The Gambler, Op.24
About The Fiery Angel, Op.37:
About music for piano solo: I've asked this a lot and have never gotten an answer.
About Winter Bonfire, Op.122:
About the lieder:
That's just flat-out silly. Not that Karl needs anyone to speak for him but the one thing I know for certain is for every work on your list there are at least five Prokofiev works Karl DOES know.
How do I know this? My ears perk whenever
anybody on GMG posts about Prokofiev and I can tell you from experience that Karl is perhaps the strongest advocate for Prokofiev on this board.
So take a breather already...
Karl knows Prokofiev pieces.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 17, 2009, 06:59:10 PMThat's just flat-out silly. Not that Karl needs anyone to speak for him but the one thing I know for certain is for every work on your list there are at least five Prokofiev works Karl DOES know.
Even by your algorithm, 10 x 5 is not a lot of music.
Quote from: Nick on June 17, 2009, 07:54:15 PM
Even by your algorithm, 10 x 5 is not a lot of music.
It's not NOT a lot of music, either! :D
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 17, 2009, 07:58:37 PM
It's not NOT a lot of music, either! :D
Prokofiev music--that's a lot of music.
QuoteAnd your source for this "fact"?
Your "algorithm," in both method and theory, is rubbish,
Nick. Your "fact" is indeed flat-out silly.
And, you are consistently de-railing a thread about
Stravinsky.
You are behaving like a troll.
The only question is, are you a troll, indeed?
OK gents, time out. This is a thread on Stravinsky, not a discussion on how much or little Karl knows about another composer altogether. So, back on track please and no eye gouging.
Knight
A friend of mine recently reiterated that, much though he enjoys the larger part of Igor Fyodorovich's oeuvre, the serial Stravinsky is "just not [his] cuppa." To be sure, one's cuppa is one's cuppa, and there you have it.
What serial Stravinsky are you agog over? (If any.)
At Buffalo I wrote a paper on the Requiem Canticles; I shan't try to dig it up, for I don't think the paper would particularly repay the redig effort. But the piece itself, I still find wonderful.
This (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg322542.html#msg322542) is apt here, too.
Agon would top the list of "Agog-ness" for me for serial Stravinsky-- one of the reasons is that it's not all dogmatically serial, but rather mixes diatonic and serial. Was it Berio that said something to the effect that Agon was a "short history of music that performed a tragic autopsy on itself?" There is also a driving rhythmic aspect to Agon that I really like. Together, its a winner.
Lately, I've been listening to the Ebony Concerto a lot, and the Symphonies for Wind. Something very cool and dry about them.
Yes, the Symphonies is a piece I gladly pound the table for. Heard it live at NEC a few years back . . . pure musical joy to hear those rich chords of the closing chorale ring out in the space!
I'm a big fan of Agon myself.
Frankly, I really appreciate it when a composer takes elements of particular modern trends and incorporates them as part of his arsenal--doesn't use it as dogma or an intellectual exercise, but just goes about his or her business with another tool.
Gearing up to discuss Le sacre in detail. (It would be a pity to let The Unrepentant Ditherer set the tone for this masterwork.)
I don't often see questions phrased as if a cat is asking ;)
Lots of agon-nizing here.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 06, 2009, 06:45:20 AM
I don't often see questions phrased as if a cat is asking ;)
Does the cat have berceuses?
What is this thing called polytonality?
Found this pretty amazing video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Opvhi2UOkY&feature=related) on Youtube of a student orchestra/pianist giving a fantastic performance of a difficult work.
*Ahem* :)
Ray is one of us, now! :)
Ray . . . have you hit the Symphonies of Wind Instruments yet, have you, have you?
OK, so I'm still relatively new when it comes to Stravinsky.
These are the works I have heard so far:
The Rite of Spring
Violin Concerto
Symphony in C
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony of Psalms
The Firebird
Jeu de Cartes
Petrouchka
The Nightingale
With the exception of me being lukewarm on "The Nightingale" opera, everything else I've like a lot to really, really, really loved! :)
Obviously, there is way more to discover, and I'm quite excited. 0:)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2009, 09:33:13 AM
Ray . . . have you hit the Symphonies of Wind Instruments yet, have you, have you?
Not yet cher ami. :)
I get chills just thinking of the Symphony of Psalms.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2009, 09:35:46 AM
I get chills just thinking of the Symphony of Psalms.
Yes, I love this one. So far, from the symphonies, the Symphony in C is my current favorite. Perhaps once I hear the Winds one, that could change?
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 15, 2009, 09:37:26 AM
Yes, I love this one. So far, from the symphonies, the Symphony in C is my current favorite. Perhaps once I hear the Winds one, that could change?
I can just smell the Wind of Change in the air...
All of a sudden, that big box 'o Stravinsky that Karl and James rave about is looking mighty tantalizing. And the price is right too for all that music. :)
So many great Stravinsky works...
Do check out the Concerto in E-Flat, "Dumbarton Oaks," one of his neo-classic gems, and one of my faves, Le Baiser de la fée (The Fairy's Kiss), a ballet with themes from Tchaikovsky.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on September 15, 2009, 10:09:43 AM
So many great Stravinsky works...
Do check out the Concerto in E-Flat, "Dumbarton Oaks," one of his neo-classic gems, and one of my faves, Le Baiser de la fée (The Fairy's Kiss), a ballet with themes from Tchaikovsky.
--Bruce
Ballet & Tchaikovsky = 99.9999% certainty that I will enjoy it! ;D
Thank you for those recommendations. I'll be on the lookout. :)
Quote from: bhodges on September 15, 2009, 10:09:43 AM
So many great Stravinsky works...
Do check out the Concerto in E-Flat, "Dumbarton Oaks," one of his neo-classic gems, and one of my faves, Le Baiser de la fée (The Fairy's Kiss), a ballet with themes from Tchaikovsky.
--Bruce
Mine, too! Even though it is to incur the eternal wrath of Richard Taruskin, who finds the whole work lamentable in its backwardlooking-ness. Well, I find it one of Stravinsky's most atmospheric scores, with a Coda that is among his most moving.
Quote from: Jezetha on September 15, 2009, 10:29:16 AM
Mine, too! Even though it is to incur the eternal wrath of Richard Taruskin, who finds the whole work lamentable in its backwardlooking-ness. Well, I find it one of Stravinsky's most atmospheric scores, with a Coda that is among his most moving.
Well, one man's "backwardlooking-ness" is another's sweet nostalgia (or something like that ;)). I find
Baiser an elegant work, and its use of Tchaikovsky very graceful.
Also, Stravinsky adapted it in a version for violin and piano, the Divertimento, and IMHO it works just as well in this format.
--Bruce
QuoteRichard Taruskin, who finds the whole work lamentable in its backwardlooking-ness.
It always tends to bother me when the parasite complains about the taste of his host.
Quote from: Franco on September 15, 2009, 10:58:57 AM
It always tends to bother me when the parasite complains about the taste of his host.
I think Taruskin would like the elegance of your put-down... ;)
Quote from: Drasko on May 15, 2007, 10:06:21 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7985870.jpg)
It seems Sony 22 CD Stravinsky Edition is finally due for reappearance. So far only jpc is listing it for pre-order and the price looks right.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties)
How complete is this set? Mighty tempting.
As near complete as dammit. The only things I can think of offhand which it lacks, are very minor and/or offshoot-ly items (The Mushrooms Go to War . . . Canon on a Russian folksong . . . e.g.)
Dive right in, Ray!
It is well worth the investment - one of the best big box sets I've ever bought.
The only piece it is missing which has any importance is the three pieces for string quartet, but they're easily obtainable elsewhere. It's one of the best things you could ever spend £17.99 on.
Any liner notes included with this box set? Not that big of a deal, just curious.
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 16, 2009, 09:18:33 AM
Any liner notes included with this box set? Not that big of a deal, just curious.
22-pp booklet, performer info on all the works.
Thanks Karl. I believe I shall order it (have it shipped at work). ;D
And, of course, Ray, you'll want a better Agon than the "Los Angeles Festival Symphony Orchestra" 0:)
Grumble noted 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2009, 11:17:53 AM
And, of course, Ray, you'll want a better Agon than the "Los Angeles Festival Symphony Orchestra" 0:)
Yes, you keep complaining about this recording - but have yet to fully explain your problem other than a vague mention of mistakes. I just purchased the score and would be interested in a discussion of it (it is one of my favorite Stravinsky compositions).
A GMG
Agon critical listening party anyone?
Quote from: Franco on September 16, 2009, 11:35:36 AM
Yes, you keep complaining about this recording - but have yet to fully explain your problem other than a vague mention of mistakes.
Yes, but I may have mentioned that I am playing a recital tomorrow $:) 0:)
Quote from: Franco on September 16, 2009, 11:35:36 AM
. . . I just purchased the score and would be interested in a discussion of it (it is one of my favorite Stravinsky compositions).
A GMG Agon critical listening party anyone?
Sure.
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 16, 2009, 09:34:24 AM
Thanks Karl. I believe I shall order it (have it shipped at work). ;D
Less than $2.50 CDN a disc. Can't wait! Should arrive next week. :)
Excellent!
Now, the most difficult decision will be: What the hell do I listen to first? I'll either just start the boring way...with Disc 1 all the way to 22, or do random disc selections and leave it to chance. 0:)
Quote from: ' on September 17, 2009, 05:05:53 AM
Or you could try to answer my question that everyone ignored:
What do these pieces have in common?
Violin Concerto
Renard
Cantata
Card Party
'
Perhaps I can attempt an answer once I've heard the Renard and Cantata pieces. ;D
Quote from: ' on September 17, 2009, 05:05:53 AM
What a un-Hobson-like choice this is; no way to go wrong. I find myself listening to periods and places, esp. in the transitions. Like the stuff toward the end of the Diaghilev period, the odd and ends he put out at the same time comprise a wild spectrum, the musical offspring of a sort of wandering musical promiscuity: huge ballets, peasant songs, short-lived dabblings with pianola and parlor piano and cimbaloms, often tinged with a Russianness that sometimes seems like marketing and sometimes seems like homesickness.
Or the smaller scale exploratory things and rewrites after the move to LA.
Don't know the answer to your question sorry. Could you be specific about some of the pieces you're talking about above?
I loved both of your stories above by the way - the violin concerto one and the concerto for two pianos one (what a marvellous piece that and the double piano sonata are!!)
I think you should start with the Ballets Vol. II set. It is the second group of three disks.
Cheers - I'll have a go with them.
Good addendum and I wish you all the best with your meeting.
Quoteesp. if he brings up Carmina Burana or the question of whether music IS a language
Now you've piqued my interest again!
Love, love, love that Concerto for two pianos. Heard it first in a class where we were analyzing it.
Quote from: Franco on September 16, 2009, 11:35:36 AM
A GMG Agon critical listening party anyone?
I do think this a lovely idea,
Franco; I'll start a specific thread . . . .
. . . here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14462.msg356206.html#msg356206).
Quote from: James on September 17, 2009, 07:44:54 AM
I know...in any event that recording alone was enough for me to totally fall in love with that piece, and take my appreciation of the composer to a whole new level!
That's okay; even a lesser recording (and in all events, this recording does benefit from the composer's presence) is sufficient to inspire love for a great music. I have no quarrel with that.
Quote from: James on September 17, 2009, 07:44:54 AM
I know...in any event that recording alone was enough for me to totally fall in love with that piece, and take my appreciation of the composer to a whole new level!
I hope you join the listening thread - the more the merrier.
By all means!
Quote from: James on September 17, 2009, 08:03:19 AM
Of course it's ok, and I'm not alone in liking that recording either.
Right, right - if you join the listening thread you might find out (I know this is what I'm hoping to do) just why people do criticize this performance. Karl is certainly not the only one I've heard make this remark.
Quote from: James on September 17, 2009, 08:24:44 AM
Franco, I'm already familar with the piece though so I have no need for that, I'm consumed with Wagner at the moment and plan on focusing on him for quite awhile.
Be careful. People have been known to enter that jungle never to be seen again.
',
I can't read the small print? ;D
Of course, the Ragtime for Eleven Instruments is just good, clean fun.
I was more meaning the Carmina Burana reference.
I've meant to ask: Are you the crux of the biscuit?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2009, 09:18:36 AM
Of course, the Ragtime for Eleven Instruments is just good, clean fun.
Heck yeah dude. 8)
Quote from: ' on September 17, 2009, 09:41:52 AM
I thought it was you who already had. I got a lot of teasing in elementary school.'
Probably. My memory won't be what it is.
I have that as well James, it's awesome I love it. :)
Tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock.......
As Ray stares unflinchingly at his mailbox
Quote from: ' on September 22, 2009, 05:58:44 PM
Was I hearing Leroy Anderson in the background of your post?
'
You
evil man punctuation!
The Stravinsky set has arrived! Won't have time to listen until tomorrow at work.
Did a quick inspection of the discs. Disc 4, 6 and 22 have a very minor scuff/scratch. Those will be the ones I test out first, to ensure they are playable (I'd say they are). It was only packaged in one layer of brown paper :o, so I'm really glad the set was not dented or damaged during transport. Yikes. >:(
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 23, 2009, 02:17:35 PM
The Stravinsky set has arrived! Won't have time to listen until tomorrow at work.
Did a quick inspection of the discs. Disc 4, 6 and 22 have a very minor scuff/scratch. Those will be the ones I test out first, to ensure they are playable (I'd say they are). It was only packaged in one layer of brown paper :o, so I'm really glad the set was not dented or damaged during transport. Yikes. >:(
You should consider leaving negative feedback so that other buyers may be made aware of how poor the seller packages his shipments. :-\
Quote from: DavidW on September 23, 2009, 05:11:02 PM
You should consider leaving negative feedback so that other buyers may be made aware of how poor the seller packages his shipments. :-\
David, what would you give as a rating? Since the product did arrive without exterior damage (although it could have easily been). 3 or 4 out of 5?
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 23, 2009, 02:17:35 PM
The Stravinsky set has arrived!
Huzzah!
Quote from: ChamberNutWon't have time to listen until tomorrow at work.
One of those curious times when one can hardly wait to get back to work ;D
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 24, 2009, 04:32:54 AM
David, what would you give as a rating? Since the product did arrive without exterior damage (although it could have easily been). 3 or 4 out of 5?
Try contacting the seller first, perhaps they will suggest a remedy.
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 24, 2009, 04:32:54 AM
David, what would you give as a rating? Since the product did arrive without exterior damage (although it could have easily been). 3 or 4 out of 5?
3 suggests a warning but not pissed off. Besides many people don't read anything rated high or low because there are too many extremists out there! :D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2009, 04:51:08 AM
Try contacting the seller first, perhaps they will suggest a remedy.
But the point is to warn other customers. On one hand you might take customers away from the buyer, but on the other you are saving potential customers the grief of receiving items poorly packaged. It's not as if the seller is an ignorant fool, any adult would know that packaging is not up to par.
Question: Why would Stravinsky compose suites for some of his ballets, when most of his ballets are already very short (around 30 minutes)?
I can see the value for some of the long ballets like Romeo & Juliet or Swan Lake, etc. But.....for Petrushka? Firebird? They are already so short. ???
Not knocking it, just found it a bit puzzling. Unless of course......the suites came first.
Chambernut, a ballet is both music and dancing right? The suite is just the music. Doesn't matter if the ballet is short or not, a ballet is for performance by orchestra+ballet company, the suite is for performance by orchestra only. :)
Quote from: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 05:49:27 AM
Chambernut, a ballet is both music and dancing right? The suite is just the music. Doesn't matter if the ballet is short or not, a ballet is for performance by orchestra+ballet company, the suite is for performance by orchestra only. :)
So what? I listen to the music on a CD (don't care if there is dancing or not). For the short ballets, I just really don't see the point, since they are almost the same length.
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 25, 2009, 07:56:32 AM
So what? I listen to the music on a CD (don't care if there is dancing or not). For the short ballets, I just really don't see the point, since they are almost the same length.
You obviously did not get my point. The point is that you can't call it a ballet if there are no dancers. Even if the suite and the ballet are the same music note for note, they still are different. Get it?
The suite is composed and published to have it performed in the concert hall. It doesn't matter if it's made shorter, or played practically the same as the ballet. Why publish a suite if the ballet is short? The answer is dead simple-- to have it played in the concert hall.
Quote from: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 08:24:52 AM
You obviously did not get my point. The point is that you can't call it a ballet if there are no dancers. Even if the suite and the ballet are the same music note for note, they still are different. Get it?
The suite is composed and published to have it performed in the concert hall. It doesn't matter if it's made shorter, or played practically the same as the ballet. Why publish a suite if the ballet is short? The answer is dead simple-- to have it played in the concert hall.
So when The Rite of Spring is played in concert (as it does all the time, but not necessarily as a ballet), it is just automatically called a suite?
No, a suite is always music taken from the complete work.
It may in some cases (L'oiseau de feu, Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet) also involved changes in scoring.
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 25, 2009, 08:33:36 AM
So when The Rite of Spring is played in concert (as it does all the time, but not necessarily as a ballet), it is just automatically called a suite?
That's obviously not what I said, and now you're just being an argumentative dick. There is nothing necessarily provocative about a suite being as long as the original work.
No inter-rodent fighting on the thread, please 0:)
The suite from Pulcinella also involves assigning vocal lines to instruments, to be sure. Myself, I like having both the original, and the suite.
I should agree that the "suite" of Petrushka is not value added in that way.
Quote from: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 09:11:51 AM
That's obviously not what I said, and now you're just being an argumentative dick.
Not trying to be, honestly. Just trying to understand it. :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 25, 2009, 10:41:56 AM
Not trying to be, honestly. Just trying to understand it. :)
It is easy to understand once you compare the suite with the uncut ballet music. Just listen to them back to back.
Anyone have a recommendation for the best Stravinsky biography for a first timer? I love Stravinsky's music, but I have no knowledge of his life, and so it is hard for me to relate to his music. I am thinking about checking out (or buying) a biography and going through all of his music.
Quote from: 'P at ri celeLa pi n on November 10, 2009, 05:37:52 PM
It's in two volumes, which may disqualify it, but Steven Walsh's biography is comprehensive, it addresses the music, the personality and the times, and it is beautifully written. He judiciously says less than there is to say about Craft, which may be the only (probably necessary) shortcoming.
And may I second you comments about Sforzando.
'
I got the first volume from the library. Looks very good. I'll check back later!
Hi Brett. I have the two Walsh volumes, and I think that would be a little over the top at first. I also have the Stravinsky volume in the Master Musicians series, this one written by Paul Griffiths, and I'd recommend this one. It's not just a biography, but it discusses the compositions, too.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=paul+griffiths&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=stravinsky&x=0&y=0
Quote from: Herman on November 13, 2009, 01:05:43 PM
Hi Brett. I have the two Walsh volumes, and I think that would be a little over the top at first. I also have the Stravinsky volume in the Master Musicians series, this one written by Paul Griffiths, and I'd recommend this one. It's not just a biography, but it discusses the compositions, too.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=paul+griffiths&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=stravinsky&x=0&y=0
I would take you up on your suggestion Herman, if only I didn't enjoy the Walsh so much. There may be a lot of detail, but it is the kind of detail I like. I was once a Russophile, and learning about Sankt Peterburg life before the revolution is wonderful. And I didn't realize this before, but Stravinsky was present in some of my favorite composers' lives. He was with the Russian Romantics, with Prokofiev in Paris, and with Schoenberg in Hollywood. So learning so much about Stravinsky's life puts these other composers in context. I love the prose of the book, too.
It really is a pleasure to read.
Why do we sp r ea d out the letters in our user names? :-\
Quote from: Catison on November 19, 2009, 07:28:53 AM
I would take you up on your suggestion Herman, if only I didn't enjoy the Walsh so much. [...] I love the prose of the book, too.
Oh, then by all means proceed.
Took a break from 'the big box', and now went back to it yesterday and today.
New discoveries (first listens) are:
Disc 11 - Miniature Masterpieces (Loved all of these)
Disc 10 - Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments, Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra (loved these)
Disc 10 - (5) Movements for Piano and Orchestra (did not enjoy)
The more I'm diving into this box, the following is becoming glaringly clear:
I virtually love to bits and pieces all of the works of Stravinsky's pre-serialist late phase. :)
I do not enjoy the later works from the so called serialist stage. :(
The Concerto for Piano & Winds is particularly tasty.
And the Big Box is always good to turn back to, aye.
I had some Stravinsky activity today, as well . . . from my first "load-up" onto my mp3 player, somehow several of the discs I first 'ripped' (what an unfortunate term) were marred by a loud glitch right at the end of each track. I had re-loaded a number of these earlier, but I recently found (or, re-discovered) other music which it was necessary to re-load. This included the Jas O'Donnell/Westminster Cathedral Choir, City of London Sinfonia disc (on Hyperion) with the Symphony of Psalms, Mass, Canticum sacrum and the three motets. Also, Wuorinen's Reliquary for Igor Stravinsky was similarly marred . . . and somehow (I guess that was early on, and I had no clear idea of capacity, so I was unnecessarily cautious) that was the only piece from the Knussen/London Sinfonietta disc I had loaded, so today I went ahead and loaded the whole enchilada.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 07, 2009, 12:10:45 PM
I had some Stravinsky activity today, as well . . .
Me too. Still reading and loving the biography. I have been listening to some of the early works, including Op. 1 and Op. 3.
Yes, ere long I shall want to re-read the Walsh!
Boxset alert! The following is due for release on 4-1-2010. 8)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4778730.jpg)
Boulez conducts Stravinsky
CD1 Chicago Symphony Orchestra
The Firebird
Fireworks
4 Studies
CD2 The Cleveland Orchestra
Pétrouchka
Le Sacre du printemps
CD3 The Cleveland Orchestra
Le Chant du Rossignol
L'Histoire du Soldat
Scherzo fantastique
Le Roi des étoiles
CD4 Berliner Philharmonic
Symphony of Psalms
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
CD5 Ensemble Intercontemporain
Ebony Concerto
3 Pieces for Clarinet solo
Concertino for String Quartet
8 Instrumental Miniatures
Concerto "Dumbarton Oaks"
Elegy for Viola solo
Epitaphium
Double Canon for String Quartet
CD6 Ensemble Intercontemporain
Songs
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 07, 2009, 12:37:56 PM
Yes, ere long I shall want to re-read the Walsh!
ah, Georgia font. It looks like newsprint. is that what you were after (or, typewriter?)?
I've been studying fonts this year. Honestly, this font is a bit hard to read, which highlights the readability of whatever is the default font here,...mmm, lry me guess...
eras, or arial???
what font would stravinsky have liked?
Quote from: Wanderer on December 07, 2009, 12:38:19 PM
Boxset alert! The following is due for release on 4-1-2010. 8)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4778730.jpg)
Boulez conducts Stravinsky
Isn't it strange how Boulez never came around to recording the late, (sometimes) serialist masterpieces of Stravinsky? This box is very tempting, but would be absolutely essential if it included works like Agon, Threni, Mass etc, etc.
Quote from: James on December 09, 2009, 08:09:44 AM
I asked him about this a number of years ago, and he told me that he would have certainly loved to record works from Stravinsky's 3rd period for Deutsche Grammophon but that it's a matter of business that he couldn't. Not much commerical potential in otherwords.
That's rather strange, given that Boulez has recorded plenty of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern and other such composers, and given that Stravinsky is a "name" composer.
Quote from: Brahmsian on December 07, 2009, 09:30:05 AM
Took a break from 'the big box', and now went back to it yesterday and today.
New discoveries (first listens) are:
Disc 11 - Miniature Masterpieces (Loved all of these)
Disc 10 - Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments, Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra (loved these)
Disc 10 - (5) Movements for Piano and Orchestra (did not enjoy)
The more I'm diving into this box, the following is becoming glaringly clear:
I virtually love to bits and pieces all of the works of Stravinsky's pre-serialist late phase. :)
I do not enjoy the later works from the so called serialist stage. :(
Which miniatures were featured on disc 11?
HELP!
I have spent all day listening to Late IS on YouTube, and, finding that I'm liking it a lot, am horrified to find a dismal (bear with me) selection of extant recordings.
The pieces in question would be:
Cantata
Canticum Sacrum
Threni*
Requiem Canticles
(and, to a lesser extent)
Variations "Aldous Huxley" (plenty of versions)
in Memoriam Dylan Thomas*
Introitus (TS Eliot)*
Elegy JFK
I know that the Mass/Noces and Mass/Noces/Cantata pairings are pretty common (any favs?), but the rest are just scattered all over the place, with Threni practically unavailable :o. This piece really impressed me.
The rest of this music all deserves to have at least three classic recordings a piece (and I mean all 8 pieces,...together!,...plus the Late Chamber Works!), but, as I'm checking, it's pffft.
Why hasn't anyone recorded Threni and the Requiem Canticles on DG or something, with,...or,....I mean, why not, at least, those 4 main works together? ??? It seems to make no sense.
There's a Philips disc (de Leeuw), a Koch disc, the Hyperion/Noces-Wood disc, the Knussen disc,...and,....what else?,...but that's really about it. And they just have 1-3 of the pieces per disc, usually with the rest of IS's choral works.
So,...what's up with this? :(
Quote from: James on December 09, 2009, 08:09:44 AM
I asked him about this a number of years ago, and he told me that he would have certainly loved to record works from Stravinsky's 3rd period for Deutsche Grammophon but that it's a matter of business that he couldn't. Not much commerical potential in otherwords.
And that is the beef I have with the "Big 3" (Universal, EMI, Sony). They don't seem to ever cater to the hardcore classical fan, but that's why we have labels like BIS, Naxos, Hyperion, and Chandos. :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2010, 05:05:08 PM
And that is the beef I have with the "Big 3" (Universal, EMI, Sony). They don't seem to ever cater to the hardcore classical fan, but that's why we have labels like BIS, Chandos, Hyperion, and Chandos. :D
Yes, and don't forget Chandos.
:)
Quote from: Franco on August 16, 2010, 05:06:36 PM
Yes, and don't forget Chandos.
:)
Lol...whoops I meant to put Naxos instead of typing Chandos twice. I guess I just have this great label on my mind. :D
Those interested in late stuff might find something to their interest at
http://highponytail.blogspot.com/search/label/Stravinsky
For the Cantata, I'd suggest Ancerl:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KWFYCARGL._SS500_.jpg)
For Canticum sacrum and Requiem Canticles, Gielen hits the spot:
(http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51jmkUJsoqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I would love a more solid recommendation for Threni. I imagine Naxos can't be far away from rereleasing Craft's, but I'd love to hear a Boulez or Gielen recording of this one.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 16, 2010, 03:49:18 PM
There's a Philips disc (de Leeuw), a Koch disc, the Hyperion/Noces-Wood disc, the Knussen disc,...and,....what else?,...but that's really about it. And they just have 1-3 of the pieces per disc, usually with the rest of IS's choral works.
My favorite recordings of Свадебка (Les noces) are (in no particular order) Craft (must be reissued on Naxos, right?), the Hyperion/Wood disc you note (with the Voronezh Chamber Choir as core guests) and — I suspect this will cross with Edward's post ; ) — the Ančerl Gold disc.
Quote from: edward on August 17, 2010, 05:32:13 AM
For the Cantata, I'd suggest Ancerl:
For Canticum sacrum and Requiem Canticles, Gielen hits the spot:
Yes, yes, yes! Amen to both of these suggestions. Especially the Gielen, which convinced me of the greatness of
Requiem Canticles.
Is it that you can't fit Canticum Sacrum, Threni, and the Requiem Canticles all on one disc? I guess the Naxos is the wait for Threni, then. :(
Haitink does the two last pieces, on some massive Box.
I'm still in shock that there's no "official" masterpiece recording for all three (like,...soooooomeone in the '70s,.....oh, nevermind ::)). Can you just hear the Karajan (or, whomever the classic would belong to)?
I have borrowed the Hyperion disc with Symphony of Psalms, Mass, and Cantata before. I'll see if the library still has it. But,...these Late Pieces are really something else! Stravinsky is one creepy old man! :-\
Apart from the Firebird and the Sacre I think it's fair to say that Stravinsky is really out of it now. The number of recordings made, especially of his very unpopular serialist works, pretty much reflects the market. And with market I don't mean money but ears eager to hear.
Stravinsky used to be the top dog for a long time, and we're looking at the inevitable reaction now. And it remains to be seen whether his reputation will recover, or whether the more confessional DSCH type of music has triumphed.
It is useful to remember that a lot of Stravinsky music is getting performed not in the concert hall or studio, but in ballet theatres all over the world on a pretty frequent basis. I may have said this before, but I have heard one or two really awful concert performances of Agon, with world famous conductors, and they just couldn't get it right (in the limited rehearsal time world-famous conductors have, per definition), whereas various good ballet orchestras can play this piece sleeping.
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2010, 12:00:04 AM
Apart from the Firebird and the Sacre I think it's fair to say that Stravinsky is really out of it now. The number of recordings made, especially of his very unpopular serialist works, pretty much reflects the market. And with market I don't mean money but ears eager to hear.
Stravinsky used to be the top dog for a long time, and we're looking at the inevitable reaction now. And it remains to be seen whether his reputation will recover, or whether the more confessional DSCH type of music has triumphed.
There was a thread around here a year or so back that basically expressed this view - that Stravinsky had become a classic but in a very narrow sense, with his reputation based on a mere handful of works.
On the other hand, it's not just the early ballets that get played; some other stuff, like
Symphony of Psalms and
Symphony in Three Movements, do get played fairly often. But those late works have been neglected ever since they were new - so maybe not much has changed after all.
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2010, 12:00:04 AMor whether the more confessional DSCH type of music has triumphed.
Great point.
I guess just hearing, what I thought was (and I thought I wasn't going to find any more) an outright Hidden Super Masterpiece in
Threni, and then seeing it's history of neglect, especially in the all encompassing '80s (as far as recording goes), makes me really have to go back to the shed and rethink a few things. Not even Harmonia Mundi? No.
Threni is brand new music to me, and, I guess I just ASSumed :-[,...haha I thought it sounded like perfected Webern.
I just find it really odd, but, then, perhaps they all just forgot, and "they";re only getting around to Late Stravinsky now. However, a nice box of it, a la the Chailly/Varese set,....now!, that would be nice!
SALONEN! :o
One Stop Shopping, that's me!
Just FYI, there's a very fine Threni (or seems to be, since I've not heard others) in this box set of Haitink live recordings:
http://www.amazon.com/Live-Radio-Recordings-14-CD-Boxed/dp/B00000K0P8/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282163416&sr=1-18
--Bruce
Just listened again to Craft's Threni on YouTube. Der flugelhorn is really nice and fruity, and... what are those bass stabs?,...is it the contrabass?,... it has a growl almost like a brass instrument.
This piece is just really awesome sounding, IMHO!,... that Stravinskian rhythmic swagger,... like Marlon Brando as a Satanic Priest! :o
Quote from: James on November 14, 2010, 10:27:24 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519uT1kpXuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Conductors frequently get the balance wrong between soloist and orchestra in this work, which is why it often fails in the concert hall. In Mutter's fresh and invigorating performance, the balance sounds just right (easier to achieve in the studio) and both soloist and orchestra exude enjoyment.
I would be curious to know what performances of the VC are you comparing?
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2010, 12:00:04 AM
Apart from the Firebird and the Sacre I think it's fair to say that Stravinsky is really out of it now.
Not around my house.
:)
Among the composers of the 20th+ century - his is the music that I listen to the most, but the Stravinsky I listen to the least are those works you mentioned.
Quote from: Velimir on August 18, 2010, 01:38:55 AM
There was a thread around here a year or so back that basically expressed this view - that Stravinsky had become a classic but in a very narrow sense, with his reputation based on a mere handful of works.
On the other hand, it's not just the early ballets that get played; some other stuff, like Symphony of Psalms and Symphony in Three Movements, do get played fairly often. But those late works have been neglected ever since they were new - so maybe not much has changed after all.
Italics mine. And how often need they be presented, not to be out of it? The Symphony of Psalms has been done with the BSO two seasons recently (IIRC); Oedipus Rex is on for January; in recent seasons both the 1911 and 1947 versions of Petrushka have rung out in Symphony Hall (in principle aligning with Herman's comment, though he omitted it in between L'oiseau de feu and Le sacre); I've heard the Symphonies of wind instruments in Jordan Hall. It seems to me that Stravinsky's status as a Classic means, partly, that there needn't be fervent championship of the music. The late works will suffer from two fronts, meseems. They're rather too thorny for practically any symphony orchestra season; but they're already accorded canonical status, so they probably won't get much purchase among avowedly new-music outfits, either.
Quote from: James on November 16, 2010, 08:32:20 AM
I've heard many throughout the years ... and it's this one that I found the most striking & enjoyable overall, in fact ... everything on the disc is wonderful.
Yes, the whole disc is good, but I bought it for the Dutilleux performance, which I believe this disc is the premiere recording of this work. I really wish Dutilleux composed more, but he is such a perfectionist.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2010, 08:43:44 AMThe late works will suffer from two fronts, meseems. They're rather too thorny for practically any symphony orchestra season; but they're already accorded canonical status, so they probably won't get much purchase among avowedly new-music outfits, either.
Well, late Stravinsky gets no love here either. The planned discussion of Agon is still a non-starter, after a year of postponement.
Quote from: Scarpia on November 16, 2010, 10:45:54 AM
Well, late Stravinsky gets no love here either. The planned discussion of Agon is still a non-starter, after a year of postponement.
My fault, largely. October proved woolier than I had expected, and November has followed suit. I decided that I am waiting until I have as much leisure as will allow me to locate my score, before volunteering to take that thread back up.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2010, 10:48:15 AM
My fault, largely. October proved woolier than I had expected, and November has followed suit. I decided that I am waiting until I have as much leisure as will allow me to locate my score, before volunteering to take that thread back up.
Ok well, I listened to the piece last week. Based on my reaction, I'm expecting it will get it's next turn in the player sometime in autumn 2018. :P
Quote from: snyprrr on August 16, 2010, 03:49:18 PM
HELP!
I have spent all day listening to Late IS on YouTube, and, finding that I'm liking it a lot, am horrified to find a dismal (bear with me) selection of extant recordings.
The pieces in question would be:
Cantata
Canticum Sacrum
Threni*
Requiem Canticles
(and, to a lesser extent)
Variations "Aldous Huxley" (plenty of versions)
in Memoriam Dylan Thomas*
Introitus (TS Eliot)*
Elegy JFK
I know that the Mass/Noces and Mass/Noces/Cantata pairings are pretty common (any favs?), but the rest are just scattered all over the place, with Threni practically unavailable :o. This piece really impressed me.
The rest of this music all deserves to have at least three classic recordings a piece (and I mean all 8 pieces,...together!,...plus the Late Chamber Works!), but, as I'm checking, it's pffft.
Why hasn't anyone recorded Threni and the Requiem Canticles on DG or something, with,...or,....I mean, why not, at least, those 4 main works together? ??? It seems to make no sense.
There's a Philips disc (de Leeuw), a Koch disc, the Hyperion/Noces-Wood disc, the Knussen disc,...and,....what else?,...but that's really about it. And they just have 1-3 of the pieces per disc, usually with the rest of IS's choral works.
So,...what's up with this? :(
I just ordered the 2cd set of 'Sacred Works' on Sony. Where was this when I was whining? Anyhow, it has ALL the works one could want,... and I got it pretty cheap (11GBP). Wow, that just popped out of nowhere (1991??). How did I miss that that? Anyhow, this and the Mustonen/Van Kuelen set should do me. Can't wait to listen to
Threni.
Quote from: James on December 13, 2010, 05:02:52 PM
Enjoying some live radio broatcast bootlegs of ..
- Abraham & Isaac (perf. David Wilson Johnson, Radio Kamerokest, Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale)
- Danses Concertantes (perf. Radio Kamer Orkest, Peter Eotvos)
- Memorian Dylan Thomas (perf. Alesky Grigorev, ASKO Ensemble, Oliver Knussen)
- Symphonies for Wind Instruments (perf. Radio Filharmonisch Orkest, Peter Eotvos)
- Symphony In 3 Movements (perf. Orchestra of the Mariinski Theatre St. Petersburg, Valery Gergiev)
Quote from: James on December 13, 2010, 06:15:23 PM
And some more ..
- Movements (perf. Sviatoslav Richter, Ensemble InterContemporain, Pierre Boulez)
- Mass & Choral Variationen (perf. ASKO/Schoenberg Ensemble, Reinbert de Leeuw,
Nederlands Kamerkoor, Capella Amsterdam, Daniel Reuss) - Movements (perf. Nicolas Hodges, ASKO/Schoenberg Ensemble, Oliver Knussen)
- Monumentum pro Gesualdo (perf. Radio Kamer Orkest, Peter Eotvos)
Let me guess, you got these from Dime a Dozen? I might check some of them out.
Quote from: James on February 28, 2011, 02:51:20 PM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/af/e1/07ddc060ada05d87bfe89110.L.jpg)
WORKS FOR PIANO & ORCHESTRA
Actually just listening to this cd!
I just fell into a Stravinsky oasis, and have been listening almost exclusively to IS. Continued...
Quote from: snyprrr on February 13, 2011, 05:17:56 PM
I just ordered the 2cd set of 'Sacred Works' on Sony. Where was this when I was whining? Anyhow, it has ALL the works one could want,... and I got it pretty cheap (11GBP). Wow, that just popped out of nowhere (1991??). How did I miss that that? Anyhow, this and the Mustonen/Van Kuelen set should do me. Can't wait to listen to Threni.
Just got the 'Sacred Works'
2cd/Sony, which has everything except the
Requiem Canticles. Having been filtered through Xenakis, IS now sounds so natural to me, especially in
Canticum Sacrum and
Threni.
Threni, especially, is deliciously cold and chilly and spare, reminding me a little of Xenakis's
Medea in its ancient sound. There are some slightly freaky sounding low ostinatos that give this music a strange fruitiness I find compellingly perverse.
I also have the
2cd/DoubleDecca which contains Ashkenazy's survey of Chamber Music. I like the very rare Septet, which has the same medieval charm as the
Cantata. Then we have the 1'30"
Epitaphium, Webernesque in the extreme. And I'm also a fan of the
Concerto for Two Pianos (must hear the
Sonata for same).
Rounding out the trifles is 'Stravinsky in America' by
MTT/RCA, which, apparently, contains not the most high energy
Agon. I am truly becoming interested in that Gielen disc!
All this reminded me of my very favorite 'last note' in music: the last string chord at the end of
Symphony in C, right after all the wind (ing) down. Ahh,... that very last chord, especially the way it hovers in the
IS/CBS version (the regular, typical blue cd),... makes me feel such feelings! Anyone concur?
So, I'm on a real IS kick here, ask me a question, haha!! ;)
Hardly anything seems to me more musically natural, than falling in with Stravinsky for an extended listen!
Quote from: Apollon on March 01, 2011, 03:27:11 PM
Hardly anything seems to me more musically natural, than falling in with Stravinsky for an extended listen!
I know how you feel, Karl because I feel the same way. I can listen to Stravinsky at any time of the day. His music never bores me or makes my mind wander. He, like two of my other absolute favorite composers, Ravel and Bartok, keeps me on my toes. And like Ravel and Bartok, Stravinsky was so remarkably consistent with his music.
I'm making my way through the set on Naxos with Robert Craft. Gorgeous playing and top-notch conducting from one of the closest people to Stravinsky in his later period.
By the way, just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the instrument is in the beginning of the ballet Agon which sounds like some kind of synthesized instrument (which I know it's not, it just sounds like one)? Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 07, 2009, 09:30:05 AM
Took a break from 'the big box', and now went back to it yesterday and today.
New discoveries (first listens) are:
Disc 11 - Miniature Masterpieces (Loved all of these)
Disc 10 - Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments, Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra (loved these)
Disc 10 - (5) Movements for Piano and Orchestra (did not enjoy)
The more I'm diving into this box, the following is becoming glaringly clear:
I virtually love to bits and pieces all of the works of Stravinsky's pre-serialist late phase. :)
I do not enjoy the later works from the so called serialist stage. :(
Stravinsky's later works take some time to warm to, but if one is persistent, then they reveal their beauty in time.
By the way, I love that "Miniature Masterpieces" disc from the big Sony Stravinsky set (the whole box set is extremely good and a good bargain to boot). I particularly loved
Greeting Prelude. It's only a minute long, but within that minute there is such exuberance and joyfulness on display.
By the way, Karl. I love your new username and more importantly your avatar. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 02, 2011, 08:13:11 PM
By the way, just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the instrument is in the beginning of the ballet Agon which sounds like some kind of synthesized instrument (which I know it's not, it just sounds like one)? Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
Which one? The instrumentation of Agon is pretty much a standard orchestra, with the addition of a mandolin (probably what you are thinking of), which is coupled with the harp at the beginning.
Quote from: lescamil on March 02, 2011, 09:42:11 PM
Which one? The instrumentation of Agon is pretty much a standard orchestra, with the addition of a mandolin (probably what you are thinking of), which is coupled with the harp at the beginning.
That might be it, mandolin in conjunction with the harp. What a beautiful sound! Almost synthetic.
Let's get some more discussion about the great Stravinsky going on here:
What are your favorite lesser known works?
Here are mine (off the top of my mind):
Chant du rossignol
Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
The Fairy's Kiss
Scenes de Ballet
Scherzo a la Russe
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Four Studies
Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra
Violin Concerto (hardly ever discussed as a major concerti but it is to my ears)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 03, 2011, 11:02:53 AM
Let's get some more discussion about the great Stravinsky going on here:
What are your favorite lesser known works?
Here are mine (off the top of my mind):
Chant du rossignol
Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
The Fairy's Kiss
Scenes de Ballet
Scherzo a la Russe
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Four Studies
Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra
Violin Concerto (hardly ever discussed as a major concerti but it is to my ears)
Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Violin Concerto
These are definitely some of my favorites, along with
Petruskha, ROS and all the symphonies. I'm not as keen on some of the vocal works. For sure,
Abraham & Isaac is my least favorite of all Stravinsky compositions.
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 03, 2011, 11:08:21 AM
Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Violin Concerto
These are definitely some of my favorites, along with Petruskha, ROS and all the symphonies. I'm not as keen on some of the vocal works. For sure, Abraham & Isaac is my least favorite of all Stravinsky compositions.
I'm not too fond of Stravinsky's more vocal oriented music either, but I don't mind the occasional vocal part like in the ballet
Pulcinella for example.
Oh, but the Mass and the Symphony of Psalms, lads! (To my mind, the Canticum sacrum, too, for that matter . . . .)
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 03, 2011, 11:36:58 AM
Oh, absolutely, Karl. :)
Eh, I've yet to hear a recording that made much of an impression. The latest was Shaw, in truly wonderful Telarc sound. So drab and colorless compared to the miraculous Poulenc Gloria it shared the program with.
[asin]B0002M5TAC[/asin]
That's not to say I won't.
Quote from: Apollon on March 03, 2011, 11:32:52 AM
Oh, but the Mass and the Symphony of Psalms, lads! (To my mind, the Canticum sacrum, too, for that matter . . . .)
I love
Symphony of Psalms, what Stravinskian wouldn't? ???
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 03, 2011, 11:40:44 AM
Eh, I've yet to hear a recording that made much of an impression. The latest was Shaw, in truly wonderful Telarc sound. So drab and colorless compared to the miraculous Poulenc Gloria it shared the program with.
[asin]B0002M5TAC[/asin]
That's not to say I won't.
Nobody can convince you about a piece of music, but the only
Symphony of Psalms that made a direct impact to me was Stravinsky's own performance of it:
[asin]B0000026GK[/asin]
Have you heard Ancerl's Symphony of Psalms? Of the recordings I've heard, it'd be my choice for a canonical recording. (I love the Markevitch one, but I think it's very much an acquired taste.)
Of the lesser-known works: Orpheus--Hans Werner Henze rated it as his single favourite Stravinsky work, and I find this view easy to understand--and the Concerto for Two Pianos stick out massively; I'm also a big admirer of many of the late works (perhaps Requiem Canticles above all). In addition, I wouldn't want to omit the Mass, a masterpiece of musical restraint.
Quote from: edward on March 03, 2011, 06:47:38 PM
Have you heard Ancerl's Symphony of Psalms? Of the recordings I've heard, it'd be my choice for a canonical recording. (I love the Markevitch one, but I think it's very much an acquired taste.)
Of the lesser-known works: Orpheus--Hans Werner Henze rated it as his single favourite Stravinsky work, and I find this view easy to understand--and the Concerto for Two Pianos stick out massively; I'm also a big admirer of many of the late works (perhaps Requiem Canticles above all). In addition, I wouldn't want to omit the Mass, a masterpiece of musical restraint.
I have not heard the Ancerl recording, but, then again, I don't have much interest in acquiring another
Symphony of Psalms performance.
Orpheus is a fantastic ballet. I love it. Have you heard Craft's recording of the three Greek ballets? It truly is outstanding. Craft, along with Boulez, Salonen, and Abbado, are really my Stravinsky conductors of choice. For me, it doesn't get much better than their recordings. Stravinsky made some good recordings as conductor, but not outstanding. The only performance that's still a favorite is his
Symphony of Psalms. I prefer technical brilliance in Stravinsky. I like clean cut rhythms and articulation. I also like clarity in this music.
Elegy
Dylan Thomas In Memorium
Canticum Sacrum
Threni
Movements
Epitaphium
Double Canon
Variations
Elegy for JFK
Introitus
Requiem Canticles
...you know, all the cheerful pieces! ;)...
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 03:11:32 AM
This is a good one for the songs ..
Agreed. I don't think it's available as a single disc any more, unfortunately, but it has been reissued as part of the DG Boulez conducts Stravinsky box,
I totally agree with Edward about the Ancerl recording of the Symphony of Psalms - as Ancerl's recordings of Les Noces, Le sacre du printemps, Petrushka and Édipe Roi (for which he employs the brilliant actor Jean Desailly to speak Cocteau's narration, which is why I give it the French name) are also at or very near the top of my list, I give him my accolade as best all-round Stravinsky conductor of the 20th century.
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 03:11:32 AMAnd Naxos has another Craft/Stravinsky volume coming out next month.
Do you have a link to the recording, James? I would like to find out what's on it. Thanks.
Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 06:43:05 AM
http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/rear/8.557532r.pdf#
http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557532
Requiem Canticles with the
Duo Concertante? I can't waaait to see what a mishmash their last Vol. will be, hee hee!! ;) ;D
Quote from: snyprrr on March 05, 2011, 08:37:45 PM
Requiem Canticles with the Duo Concertante? I can't waaait to see what a mishmash their last Vol. will be, hee hee!! ;) ;D
Like many Stravinsky discs, there is a broad range of his career represented. You pick those two pieces out to make a joke (and, sure) but of course there are also the Sonata for two pianos and Abraham & Isaac.
Curiously, this is one reissue which does not overlap much (possibly not at all) with the Craft recordings I've already got . . . . I wonder if the Requiem Canticles and Tchaikovsky Pas de deux are from that long-ago initial two-CD set that Craft did? That's one of a number of recordings which I fetched in back when I was in upstate New York, but which passed out of my life.
Has anybody watched this documentary?
[asin]B0015U0QP8[/asin]
I bought it tonight and I've heard it was excellent. Any thoughts?
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 03, 2011, 11:08:21 AMI'm not as keen on some of the vocal works. For sure, Abraham & Isaac is my least favorite of all Stravinsky compositions.
I thoroughly enjoyed the
Mass today and really studied it. It has vocals, but it's so damn infectious.
Pulcinella, obviously a well-acknowledged Neoclassical masterwork, in its complete form has vocals as well, which I think are lovely.
The Mass is marvellous. And I'll repeat: Canticum sacrum, especially for us Agon enthusiasts.
I hadn't heard of the Tony Palmer film, MI . . . nor am I certain that I've seen any of his work other than 200 Motels ; )
Quote from: Apollon on March 15, 2011, 03:06:21 AM
The Mass is marvellous. And I'll repeat: Canticum sacrum, especially for us Agon enthusiasts.
I hadn't heard of the Tony Palmer film, MI . . . nor am I certain that I've seen any of his work other than 200 Motels ; )
I wrote a review on Amazon about Palmer's RVW film which I was hugely disappointed in:
"O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Ralph Vaughan Williams" has to be one of the worst documentaries I've seen in a long time. From start to finish, there was nothing of remote substance found. The interview segments made absolutely no sense and didn't even pertain to the subject matter about 99% of the time. The editing, or lack of, was terrible as it was completely cut-up and very erratic. The entire documentary didn't follow any kind of timeline at all. The stories told from the various people being interviewed made absolutely no sense and were more of a personal nature and not much in the way of Vaughan Williams' actual history. The images involved throughout were very distasteful, which I'm sure this has been mentioned, but there were several images that were totally uncalled for like the images of a dead child and not to mention stacks of dead bodies, which are out-of-place in this type of documentary, which is supposed to be about Vaughan Williams and not trying to provoke controversy.
That said, I can't possibly think of one good thing to say about this pathetic excuse for a documentary other than I wish I had the 2+ hours back from watching this film. If you are expecting a documentary that follows a timeline and that deals with Vaughan Williams' life in a competent way, then do not watch this. I would have been ashamed to have even released this garbage for people to see. It surely doesn't do any justice to this man's beautiful music, if anything, it makes a mockery of it.But, however, I did enjoy his documentary on John Adams immensely. I suppose he's very much hit or miss in his films. I hope his Stravinsky documentary is as good as people have said it is.
For those who haven't heard the Hyperion discs with Volkov and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, don't hesitate to pick these up at some point. Fantastic performances. Volkov really understands this music and his feel for the rhythmic complexities is nothing short of amazing. As I've mentioned on two other threads, I hope he continues this series on Hyperion. Of course, we have enough recordings of Rite of Spring, Petrushka, and Firebird, but I think it was highly inventive for Volkov to start the series off with three seldom discussed ballets, but incredible ballets Jeu de cartes, Orpheus, and Agon. Ultimately though, no matter what he chooses to do, Volkov is up against some stiff competition (Abbado, Craft, Salonen, Gielen, Chailly, Stravinsky himself, etc.), but while it's easy to defend our favorites, we must give this young fellow a chance to shine and we must also thank him and Hyperion for bringing us this music.
Hey, at 22 pages, I should call this thread respectfully populated ; )
Day before yesterday I saw an old friend I hadn't seen (let alone played together with) in quite a while. He is back to playing, and playing more diligently than he had in a while . . . so we are talking of reviving a trio, and specifically of having a proper lash at the trio suite from L'histoire.
The Works for Violin & Piano
Isabelle van Keulen & Olli Mustonen (Philips; 1989)
I just got this old Philips set, which came in one of those Philips 'boxes' that look so so,... expensive, haha (oh, and it was on Amazon,... sheesh!). This purchase is like my Cornerstone, the one that connects a whole lot of strands in my Library.
So, I've never really 'heard' (or actually actively listened to) any of these pieces (though I admit to prejudging it as sounding like 'typical' IS neo-classicism), but I put on the Duo Concertant (expecting to be bored), and wow!, that opening is really really unique. That is some of the most shocking expectation defying music I've heard, considering what I thought it was going to sound like. I wasn't able to listen too much last night (quiet time), so I will be diving in during the drive today.
I suppose I was actually more interested in Mustonen than Stravinsky. I used to have his Alkan/DSCH Decca cd, and remember that he has a reputation for a very individual technique, so, I thought he might be interesting in this repertoire. He seems to play having a 'bubble' around every note, very articulated. This came through in spades in the opening of the DC.
Van Keulen, on the other hands, seems very delicate here. The balance seems pretty equal, though the piano tends to 'wrap' the violin, like how flowers are wrapped in light paper. This balance seems to highlight the timbral differences very much, which makes me wonder if this is on purpose, since, apparently, IS thought that the combination of string & piano was not to his liking.
So, I know there are now quite a few recordings of this music (including Perlman, and a new one with Ades on piano, from Hyperion). Is anyone familiar with the Philips; or, what are your thoughts on the music?
Quote from: snyprrr on March 17, 2011, 07:25:51 AM
The Works for Violin & Piano
Isabelle van Keulen & Olli Mustonen (Philips; 1989)
I just got this old Philips set, which came in one of those Philips 'boxes' that look so so,... expensive, haha (oh, and it was on Amazon,... sheesh!). This purchase is like my Cornerstone, the one that connects a whole lot of strands in my Library.
So, I've never really 'heard' (or actually actively listened to) any of these pieces (though I admit to prejudging it as sounding like 'typical' IS neo-classicism), but I put on the Duo Concertant (expecting to be bored), and wow!, that opening is really really unique. That is some of the most shocking expectation defying music I've heard, considering what I thought it was going to sound like. I wasn't able to listen too much last night (quiet time), so I will be diving in during the drive today.
I suppose I was actually more interested in Mustonen than Stravinsky. I used to have his Alkan/DSCH Decca cd, and remember that he has a reputation for a very individual technique, so, I thought he might be interesting in this repertoire. He seems to play having a 'bubble' around every note, very articulated. This came through in spades in the opening of the DC.
Van Keulen, on the other hands, seems very delicate here. The balance seems pretty equal, though the piano tends to 'wrap' the violin, like how flowers are wrapped in light paper. This balance seems to highlight the timbral differences very much, which makes me wonder if this is on purpose, since, apparently, IS thought that the combination of string & piano was not to his liking.
So, I know there are now quite a few recordings of this music (including Perlman, and a new one with Ades on piano, from Hyperion). Is anyone familiar with the Philips; or, what are your thoughts on the music?
No one?
I listened to the rest of the set, and find it endlessly interesting, in a very white, neo-classic way. Again, the opening of the
Duo Concertant, with the piano imitating a... balailaka?... is so interesting sounding. The two instruments couldn't clash more, yet compel so.
Can anyone vouch for Van Keulen? Her intonation sounds ok, but some of this music sounds fiendishly difficult, and I was compelled to listen very closely a few times (the solo
Elegie is a study in double stops); but, I have come away thinking she's playing the music. There is something slightly disconcerting about the proceedings, and I'm starting to think it's Igor's spiky sense of humor.
Ultimately, I did find in this music the detachment I was seeking. It is certainly some of the cleanest music I've heard, spotless and white. The liner notes call it 'superior salon music', and I would agree, if you leave your preconceived notions, this music will surprise you. I especially enjoyed the
Firebird and
Nightingale arrangements.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 17, 2011, 08:09:56 PM
No one?
Well . . . honestly, there is a long list of Stravinsky works which made an immediate, and highly specific impression, so that I should never mistake any other piece in the literature for them. But the Duo concertant was not one of them ; )Sérieusement, your post I took as a prompt to revisit the Duo, but yesterday being St Patrick's Day in Boston, I have not yet acted upon that prompt.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 17, 2011, 08:09:56 PM
Can anyone vouch for Van Keulen? Her intonation sounds ok, but some of this music sounds fiendishly difficult, and I was compelled to listen very closely a few times (the solo Elegie is a study in double stops)
Do you know, I think I had not ever heard the Élégie until the Boulez DG box arrived this past month. It is exquisite! Though, of course, I fully expected it so to be.
Quote from: Apollon on March 18, 2011, 04:01:03 AM
Well . . . honestly, there is a long list of Stravinsky works which made an immediate, and highly specific impression, so that I should never mistake any other piece in the literature for them. But the Duo concertant was not one of them ; )
Sérieusement, your post I took as a prompt to revisit the Duo, but yesterday being St Patrick's Day in Boston, I have not yet acted upon that prompt.
It's just that opening, where Igor makes the piano sound like, I suppose, a balailaka, with those fast repeated notes. Not THEE most strange thing ever, but, I think it carries the same kind of cheeky surprise that the simplistic patterns of the
3 Pieces for SQ deliver (or the almost random figurations of
A Soldier's Tale?). Maybe?
And, I've been listening to this van Keulen/Mustonen set for a couple of days now. It's quite infectious, and ever so slightly Modern sounding,... I just can't get over how 'clean' the music sounds,... very Metrosexual, haha!!
The opening of the Firebird is very nicely transcribed.
Listened to Jeu de cartes today, in two recordings, one by Neeme Jarvi with the Concertgebouw (1992) the other Karajan with the Philharmonia (1952). An interesting piece, and interesting contrast between the two recordings. Jarvi brings off the grand introductions to each deal best, but the glory of this piece is in the fascinating passage work that make up the guts of the three "deals" and Karajan here is far superior, in my opinion. Part of it is that Karajan's recording is much better recorded than Jarvi's, despite the fact that Chandos had a 40 year advantage in technology. The woodwinds sound so much more distant and remote in the Jarvi recording. Another irritation is that Jarvi tends to have the brass play in very harsh staccato outbursts where you don't hear the note, just a percussive "blat." Karajan would not allow such a thing. 0:)
Quote from: James on March 19, 2011, 10:11:36 AM
I haven't heard the Philips set .. but your mentions of it here has got me interested in checking it out.
I have the Hyperion set (Marwood/Ades) and dig it, tho I haven't listened to it as much as I'd like to.
Just curious as to how you think Marwood plays. As I said, van Keulen seems to play very delicately, and I wonder if this is the music, or not. I don't know Dushkin's style, so I can't tell if he had a more,...mmm,... masculine style. I really feel like I need to hear others now to compare. And the madness of rabbit holes, haha!
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 19, 2011, 10:12:58 AM
Listened to Jeu de cartes today, in two recordings, one by Neeme Jarvi with the Concertgebouw (1992) the other Karajan with the Philharmonia (1952). An interesting piece, and interesting contrast between the two recordings. Jarvi brings off the grand introductions to each deal best, but the glory of this piece is in the fascinating passage work that make up the guts of the three "deals" and Karajan here is far superior, in my opinion. Part of it is that Karajan's recording is much better recorded than Jarvi's, despite the fact that Chandos had a 40 year advantage in technology. The woodwinds sound so much more distant and remote in the Jarvi recording. Another irritation is that Jarvi tends to have the brass play in very harsh staccato outbursts where you don't hear the note, just a percussive "blat." Karajan would not allow such a thing. 0:)
Karajan had no feel for Stravinsky's idiom. He pretty much was clueless about Bartok as well.
Quote from: James on March 19, 2011, 06:10:57 PM[asin]B00005M9HW[/asin]
Stravinsky arranged L'Histoire du soldat as a suite, which seems the best way to hear the music outside of the theatre. Using seven virtuoso players plucked from the ranks of the Cleveland Orchestra, Boulez produces a crisp and vigorous account in which Stravinsky's rhythmic playfulness is always to the fore.
A truly fantastic recording in every sense. This recording also contains one of my favorite Stravinsky scores
Le Chant du Rossignol. To those Stravinsky fans who haven't heard this work: go listen to it now! Truly magical.
Just popped in the Octet. I must have got this confused with the Symphonies for Wind Instruments because I certainly don't hear anything familiar. I guess that opening of SWI has just got stuck in my head. So, I consider the Octet a 'new' piece for me, haha! Nothing out of the ordinary here, though there is a lot of nice wind writing.
What are everybody's thoughts on Dumbarton Oaks? Do you think it is one of Stravinsky's masterpieces?
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 20, 2011, 06:52:48 AM
What are everybody's thoughts on Dumbarton Oaks? Do you think it is one of Stravinsky's masterpieces?
I'll make this easy. YES!
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 19, 2011, 10:12:58 AM
Listened to Jeu de cartes today, in two recordings, one by Neeme Jarvi with the Concertgebouw (1992) the other Karajan with the Philharmonia (1952). An interesting piece, and interesting contrast between the two recordings. Jarvi brings off the grand introductions to each deal best, but the glory of this piece is in the fascinating passage work that make up the guts of the three "deals" and Karajan here is far superior, in my opinion. Part of it is that Karajan's recording is much better recorded than Jarvi's, despite the fact that Chandos had a 40 year advantage in technology. The woodwinds sound so much more distant and remote in the Jarvi recording. Another irritation is that Jarvi tends to have the brass play in very harsh staccato outbursts where you don't hear the note, just a percussive "blat." Karajan would not allow such a thing. 0:)
Listened to these two recordings of Jeu de cartes again. This is a case where having two contrasting performances is a big benefit because there are lots of details that are more apparent in one than the other, and having both gives the opportunity to listen for the effect you noticed in one recording while listening to the other.
I've grown to like Jarvi's recording more on the second go around, but Karajan's old Philharmonia still has a unique appeal. This is a very playful score (with ironic quotes of Beethoven's "fate" theme in chirping oboes, and recreation of Rossini style Italianate drama) and Karajan brings an intensity to it that seems to invoke the seriousness of a child at play. Jarvi's characterization of the music is not as focused, creates the impression of a pagent. Both are a pleasure to listen to. The next time I listen to the piece it will be Abbado's LSO recording (more dramatic than either of these, as I recall).
Quote from: snyprrr on March 20, 2011, 06:11:11 AM
Just popped in the Octet. I must have got this confused with the Symphonies for Wind Instruments because I certainly don't hear anything familiar. I guess that opening of SWI has just got stuck in my head. So, I consider the Octet a 'new' piece for me, haha! Nothing out of the ordinary here, though there is a lot of nice wind writing.
Aye. While it is not a 'game-changer' like the Symphonies d'instruments à vent, the Octuor is still a lovely piece.
Going through the 'American' years...
Concerto in D: this one has the same 'hardness' as the Symphony in C, the same seriousness (same as the Capriccio also).
Quatre Etudes: these are orchestrations of the 3 Pieces for SQ. The second one, particularly (marked Eccentrique) has a delicious strangeness to it (the others,... meh).
Four Norwegian Moods: the most Milhaud/Martinu/Poulenc, etc.,... sounding of all. IMO nothing to see here.
Danses Concertantes: typical, spiky Neo-Classicism for the Los Angeles crowd. Me likey.
'Dumbarton Oaks' Concerto: haven't listened yet...
Ode: not yet...
Scenes de ballet: up next...
I'm not sure his 'Hollywood' phase is my favorite.
If the Octet is the first NeoC work, what was the last?
Quote from: snyprrr on March 22, 2011, 06:44:05 AM
If the Octet is the first NeoC work, what was the last?
Agon, which was transitional into the serial phase.
I have been watching this...
[asin]B0015U0QP8[/asin]
I have not finished watching it yet, but I have been watching about 30-40 minutes a night and tonight I will finish it. This is a very entertaining film. As typical with the Palmer films I've seen, it doesn't really follow any kind of logic, but this Stravinsky documentary is, more importantly, driven by the composer's own narration, which makes it a little bit more cohesive. It does contain some fantastic footage of the composer and some rare interviews that were quite amusing to watch. I'm past the part where he moved to Hollywood. One interesting thing so far that I thought was curiously omitted was Stravinsky's own thoughts on why he chose to look back to the Baroque and Classical Eras for inspiration. It seems that his Neoclassical period is getting the short end of the stick so far, which I'm very disappointed in. Hopefully, things will pick up as Pulcinella, Mass, and Symphony in Three Movements has been discussed.
Speaking of Stravinsky documentaries, has anyone seen this one?
[asin]B000AMMSQ2[/asin]
Quote from: Leon on March 22, 2011, 11:17:20 AM
Yes, I have that one and like it a lot. It only covers Symphonies of Wind Instruments, but is very informative and if you are like me and love this work, the film is well worth the investment in time and money. The companion film on Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra is, indeed, very fine as well.
Thanks for the feedback, Leon! I'll probably be purchasing this in a minute. :D
Had time to listen through Orpheus again and have a better appreciation of the unique sound-world of this music. After the boisterous, extroverted use of the orchestra in Jeu de cartes, the sparse, reticent orchestration of Orpheus requires some serious renormalization of expectations. The notes to the recording mention that the forces employed in Jeu de cartes and Orpheus are almost exactly the same, but Orpheus is more reserved in its use of the orchestra, and except for a few passages the texture is reminiscent of chamber music. The most striking thing about the music is the use of neo-baroque textures during the most expressive moments of the piece, notably the writing for two oboes and harp depicting Orpheus in the underworld, and the slowly unfolding counterpoint depicting the return and loss of Eurydice.
Quote from: James on March 23, 2011, 08:47:48 AM
A beautiful piece .. and that's the cool thing about Stravinsky when you're exploring him, you just never know what to expect .. he was such a musical chameleon but yet never lost his very distinctive musical identity.
Yes, he was one of most consistent composers of the 20th Century. Truly remarkable in every sense. I would like to get to the point where I know every nook and cranny of his output. I'm slowly getting there.
For the pianists out there: don't miss Guido Agosti's arrangement of three movements from The Firebird. In my opinion, this is a better work than Stravinsky's own Three Movements from Petrushka, which gets far more fame than it deserves, in my opinion. I have only heard the Martin Jones recording of it, but his performance is riddled with mistakes and wrong notes, so look out for another recording if you can. Martin Jones is one of those pianists who just seems to play the entire repertoires of given composers just to show that it can be done. He has a long history of bland, clinical performances. Still, he has his value, for he has recorded lots of works that people have never paid much attention to.
EDIT: Here is a great performance of the three movements as arranged by Guido Agosti:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1f-DUj2Mg&feature=player_embedded
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 22, 2011, 09:57:34 PM
Had time to listen through Orpheus again and have a better appreciation of the unique sound-world of this music. After the boisterous, extroverted use of the orchestra in Jeu de cartes, the sparse, reticent orchestration of Orpheus requires some serious renormalization of expectations. The notes to the recording mention that the forces employed in Jeu de cartes and Orpheus are almost exactly the same, but Orpheus is more reserved in its use of the orchestra, and except for a few passages the texture is reminiscent of chamber music. The most striking thing about the music is the use of neo-baroque textures during the most expressive moments of the piece, notably the writing for two oboes and harp depicting Orpheus in the underworld, and the slowly unfolding counterpoint depicting the return and loss of Eurydice.
Orpheus is one of Stravinsky's most beautiful pieces, and the true successor of another favourite of mine: Apollon Musagète.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 04:34:55 AM
Orpheus is one of Stravinsky's most beautiful pieces, and the true successor of another favourite of mine: Apollon Musagète.
I agree.
Orpheus, especially the opening is Stravinsky at his most delicate.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 31, 2011, 06:38:37 AM
I agree. Orpheus, especially the opening is Stravinsky at his most delicate.
Yes, that opening descent...
Just listened to Le Sacre for the first time in decades (Rattle/EMI). Wow,... is this the perfect piece?? Truly primal, and Xenakian.
That bassoon sounds like a tuba, no? I don't know, I'm just so impressed,... I can hear everything in this recording. I have to go drive, and will listen again...
I feel like a little girl jumping up and down, haha!
After listening to so much other IS recently, this music really did take me by surprise. wow wow wow
wow wow wow...
just in case,... WOW!!!!!!! ;D
Cool, snypsss. Nice to know that someone else appreciates Rattle/CBSO in this dy-no-mite piece!
Quote from: Apollon on April 14, 2011, 10:47:01 AM
Cool, snypsss. Nice to know that someone else appreciates Rattle/CBSO in this dy-no-mite piece!
Is that dy-nah-mite as in the the famous Hum?
Quote from: The new erato on April 14, 2011, 12:36:59 PM
Is that dy-nah-mite as in the the famous Hum?
Jimmy Walker from
Good Times TV show. Dy-no-mite! ;)
Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky
3 Symphonies
I just welcomed this cd back into my life. This has to be the perfect Stravinsky disc, no? I just didn't feel the need to try anyone else out, not even in amazon samples. How can I trust anyone else, or any other recording, to deliver that last string chord in the 'C' Symphony?
The Last String Chord. Listen to the Spirit hovering.
Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2011, 06:55:07 PM
Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky
3 Symphonies
I just welcomed this cd back into my life. This has to be the perfect Stravinsky disc, no? I just didn't feel the need to try anyone else out, not even in amazon samples. How can I trust anyone else, or any other recording, to deliver that last string chord in the 'C' Symphony?
The Last String Chord. Listen to the Spirit hovering.
I agree, this CD is perfect. Love the bassoon intro work to the final movement in Symphony in C. Another great (but not perfect) recording of these 3 symphonies is
Rattle/BP
Oedipus Rex (Salonen/Sony)
I had never heard this Opera-Oratorio (that just looks funny), but built this thing up in my imagination after reading James's thrilling review of Salonen/Sony (which I then found cheap). The 'chilling' and 'icy' words used to describe this piece (by others also on Amazon) built in my mind a very particular sound, taking all the more austere and 'serious' sounding elements of his '30s style. I was expecting a fairly icy and austere thing,... I don't know who to relate it to but maybe Dallapiccola?,... slightly sinister,...maybe a little like Orff without a motor?
Anyhow, the cd arrived, and, in anticipation of getting the right time to play it, settled on drive time. Well, I did actually brace myself in case of emergency, and, lo and behold, it came in spades. I must say now that I didn't make it past, say, track 10, because, I had reached "sounds like opera" mode and went into shutdown. I was stunned by the seeming cheerfulness of the music, with those slightly strange choral outbursts. But, it was the total opposite of what I thooought it was going to be, and, sincerely, I like my imagination better (except that hearing the Music obliterated detail). I'm sure it was just 'expectation', but, you have to admit that this sounds pretty much
I just didn't like it at all. No excuses,... it sounded like opera to me,... with some French guy speaking every now and then,... and a chorus. I don't remember the music except it was cheerfully warm,... even if the second half gets close to what I'd imagined, I don't see how, unless there is a purposeful change of tone from the beginning, how my impression could possibly change.
I am at a loss. Where is the piece in my head? It's obviously not something I've heard,... it was supposed to be THIS piece, so, what can I relate it to? I saw long held single lines, austere and pseudo Greek sounding (or, 'Important' sounding),... maybe something not like Varese, but something of that import (I guess I was expecting some drums). But, the music I heard didn't sound foreboding of tragedy,... does it? After coming off all the other BIG examples of his Neo-Class style, this seemed to me not to sound anything like any of it (sure, a credit, but I still didn't like it).
I just cannot meet the Challenge of this kind of stuff. It gives me what I call 'David Letterman face'. I'm sorry guys. 8)
A beautiful sighting earlier on our local classical station:
Igor Stravinsky: Mass
RIAS Chamber Choir / Daniel Reuss
musikFabrik
Harmonia Mundi 801913
Nice, Bill!
I think that adding the Tanglewood Festival Chorus was a non-Stravinsky touch, but still:
http://www.youtube.com/v/UNAmF6vQTZk
It ain't right when this thread is so utterly neglected.
Quote from: James on May 01, 2011, 06:45:56 AM
DUMBARTON OAKS
Written at a time of many crises in Stravinsky's life, Dumbarton Oaks is a reminder of his assertion that music "expresses nothing but itself". The work met with a mixed reaction on its premiere, being deplored by those who thought serious composers should be in the vanguard of a continous musical revolution. The opening movement is reminiscent of JS Bach's "Brandenburg" Concertos. The modest instrumental forces and the regularity of the metre all hark back to the Baroque practice. The second movement has a sly, jazz insouciance. It features flute and violin as solo instruments - plus the clarinet, an instrument that was unknown in Baroque times. The third movement is a movement with a pronounced "finale", returning to the Baroque model. Yet Stravinsky abandons counterpoint in favour of his characteristic games of deft chordal interplay, shifting accents and sprightly syncopation.
(http://ec5.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fcar95tDL._AA300_.jpg)
[asin]B00008Y4IM[/asin]
Both of these bring off the neoclassical lines within the bastard harmonic environment beautifully.
The last movement of Dumbarton Oaks is one of my very favorite passages by Stravinsky.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 14, 2011, 09:52:44 PM
Oedipus Rex (Salonen/Sony)
I had never heard this Opera-Oratorio (that just looks funny), but built this thing up in my imagination after reading James's thrilling review of Salonen/Sony (which I then found cheap). The 'chilling' and 'icy' words used to describe this piece (by others also on Amazon) built in my mind a very particular sound, taking all the more austere and 'serious' sounding elements of his '30s style. I was expecting a fairly icy and austere thing,... I don't know who to relate it to but maybe Dallapiccola?,... slightly sinister,...maybe a little like Orff without a motor?
Anyhow, the cd arrived, and, in anticipation of getting the right time to play it, settled on drive time. Well, I did actually brace myself in case of emergency, and, lo and behold, it came in spades. I must say now that I didn't make it past, say, track 10, because, I had reached "sounds like opera" mode and went into shutdown. I was stunned by the seeming cheerfulness of the music, with those slightly strange choral outbursts. But, it was the total opposite of what I thooought it was going to be, and, sincerely, I like my imagination better (except that hearing the Music obliterated detail). I'm sure it was just 'expectation', but, you have to admit that this sounds pretty much
I just didn't like it at all. No excuses,... it sounded like opera to me,... with some French guy speaking every now and then,... and a chorus. I don't remember the music except it was cheerfully warm,... even if the second half gets close to what I'd imagined, I don't see how, unless there is a purposeful change of tone from the beginning, how my impression could possibly change.
I am at a loss. Where is the piece in my head? It's obviously not something I've heard,... it was supposed to be THIS piece, so, what can I relate it to? I saw long held single lines, austere and pseudo Greek sounding (or, 'Important' sounding),... maybe something not like Varese, but something of that import (I guess I was expecting some drums). But, the music I heard didn't sound foreboding of tragedy,... does it? After coming off all the other BIG examples of his Neo-Class style, this seemed to me not to sound anything like any of it (sure, a credit, but I still didn't like it).
I just cannot meet the Challenge of this kind of stuff. It gives me what I call 'David Letterman face'. I'm sorry guys. 8)
I must confess that I had about the same reaction to Oedipus Rex and never went back. Are you famliar with Les Noces? A few years earlier, and it's one of my absolute faves by Igor.
Did Stravinsky quote Joseph Lanner for the waltz section of Petrushka? The woodwinds and the harp sound playing Steyrische Tänze and Die Schönbrunner! ;D
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 25, 2012, 08:25:11 AM
Did Stravinsky quote Joseph Lanner for the waltz section of Petrushka? The woodwinds and the harp sound playing Steyrische Tänze and Die Schönbrunner! ;D
Yes; good ear, Ilaria!
Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2012, 08:40:47 AM
Yes; good ear, Ilaria!
How wonderful! :) That's quite interesting, amongs many more famous waltzes, he just chose those ones.......
Strange to report (in that it's taken me so long, I mean): I have at last loaded all of The Big Stravinsky Box onto my player!
(* crickets *)
What is the big Stravinsky box?
Quote from: DavidW on September 24, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
What is the big Stravinsky box?
:o
*faints on the floor*
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
22-CD reissue of the composer's own recordings (although Bob Craft conducts some of the later works under the composer's supervision).
Quote from: North Star on September 24, 2012, 01:13:24 PM
:o
*faints on the floor*
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
It's superb! :)
Quote from: DavidW on September 24, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
What is the big Stravinsky box?
An essential acquisition for the Stravinsky fan. :D
And now, for something completely different . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/v/cP_njOZAeWI
Quote from: karlhenning on October 03, 2012, 11:46:55 AM
And now, for something completely different . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/v/cP_njOZAeWI
Ah, the missing Zappa realization! ;)
Quote from: James on October 11, 2012, 06:02:06 PM
Other 'realizations' ,, anyone see any of this stuff?
The first one is indispensable. I have a soft spot for the Blechman cartoon. I hated that other 'Rite.' The rest, I don't know.
Quote from: karlhenning on August 30, 2012, 05:44:19 AM
Strange to report (in that it's taken me so long, I mean): I have at last loaded all of The Big Stravinsky Box onto my player!
Half a decade later, I am finally digging through the box--reading this thread from the beginning and reading about the various works has finally prompted me to put this on and listen. I am also tempted to finally grab both of Walsh's tomes from the shelf...
Let's see... It has been so long since I heard many of these works that it feels like I am coming to them for the first time. I have started with surveying the vocal works in the big box: Pribaoutki and the Russian Peasant Songs are astonishing; I also liked the Three Japanese Lyrics (I have two different versions by Boulez elsewhere that I need to compare to this); Le Rossignol was quite good, especially that haunting tenor melody. Unfortunately, I couldn't stand The Rake's Progress. Didn't care much for Mavra.
I was a while warming to The Rake's Progress.
But, somehow, Mavra was a hit with me, straight off.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 01:32:47 PM
But, somehow, Mavra was a hit with me, straight off.
I did feel I need to hear
Mavra a few more times. Same with
Perséphone.
Like
The Rake,
Oedipus Rex did not captivate me.
And a few random ones from earlier today:
Will certainly be listening again to
Ode
The Flood - liked the pointillism, but not the voices
Monumentum pro Gesualdo - very interesting, though I didn't like the orchestral textures in the 1st movement (the 3rd is better, and the 2nd is quite good)
Scherzo à la russe
Le Renard
Those that didn't do much for me (yet?)
Scherzo fantastique
Fireworks
Les Noces (perhaps a better performance will be more pleasant; this reminded me of Orff very much)
Quote from: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 02:38:06 PM
Les Noces (perhaps a better performance will be more pleasant; this reminded me of Orff very much)
There are reasons
; ) Of course, the
Stravinsky predates the
Orff.
i don't care for Orff at all, but Les Noces is sheer genius. i prefer it to the Rite.
apart from that my favourite Stravinsky is Requiem Canticles, Movements, Threni & c. the late stuff. i suppose it's not to everyone's taste.
Cool, another Threni fan!
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 02:43:40 PM
There are reasons ; ) Of course, the Stravinsky predates the Orff.
Indeed; I am aware of that...
Quote from: dyn on February 17, 2013, 03:29:55 PM
i don't care for Orff at all, but Les Noces is sheer genius. i prefer it to the Rite.
apart from that my favourite Stravinsky is Requiem Canticles, Movements, Threni & c. the late stuff. i suppose it's not to everyone's taste.
Well, the
Rite is one of those works of which I love every single note, and
Carmina Burana is another, since I was 8 or 9... My trouble with
Les Noces is the singing. I'll comment on late Stravinsky when I get to it. It is the first time I am listening to his oeuvre in a systematic fashion.
Quote from: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 05:25:14 PM
... My trouble with Les Noces is the singing...
Ah! This makes sense. I could see the "composer's own" document unwittingly getting in the way, here.
I'd suggest the
Craft recording. Among its many virtues is the agreeable timbre of the choral soprani, particularly.
yes, recordings of
Les Noces with a high quality of singing seem hard to come by. the Naxos version is also rather subpar for instance.
Quote from: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 05:25:14 PM
Indeed; I am aware of that...
Well, the Rite is one of those works of which I love every single note, and Carmina Burana is another, since I was 8 or 9... My trouble with Les Noces is the singing. I'll comment on late Stravinsky when I get to it. It is the first time I am listening to his oeuvre in a systematic fashion.
don't get me wrong, i've always appreciated the Rite, but for whatever reason it's not desert island music—i don't find myself going back to it very often. i suppose it's much more compelling in live performance than on recording though.
Neither here nor there, just tallying in... Le sacre is an old, sentimental favorite of mine.
Carry on : )
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 05:29:32 PM
Ah! This makes sense. I could see the "composer's own" document unwittingly getting in the way, here.
I'd suggest the Craft recording. Among its many virtues is the agreeable timbre of the choral soprani, particularly.
Thanks, I'll make a note of your recommendation.
Quote from: dyn on February 17, 2013, 05:33:19 PM
don't get me wrong, i've always appreciated the Rite, but for whatever reason it's not desert island music—i don't find myself going back to it very often. i suppose it's much more compelling in live performance than on recording though.
Indeed it is; I attended a Boulez/LSO concert of it almost two decades ago (along with
Le chant du rossignol). A truly memorable experience that cemented my unconditional love for it.
Concerning Les Noces: many decades ago, I had a record of it revolving on the stereo, and my mother insisted that "somebody should put those poor women out of their misery!"
I suppose the Russian chorus was particularly shrill on that record. 0:)
My inaugural listen to Les noces was not a success. I admit it struck me as shrill then, too.
But now, I love it.
A new Le sacred du printemps and Petrouchka coming out...yay or nay?
[asin]B009EJSTOW[/asin]
I like Gatti's conducting but I already own 41 Le sacre performances and there's no telling how many Petrouchka performances I own.
A recent staging of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring by the Columbus Symphony and Ballet Met Columbus sold out all performances!
This can only be considered a pop in the snout to those "death of classical music" types! 0:)
Singing the Bogoroditse Devo (in Church Slavonic).
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nP06lu7gRbA/UZ-tRxYzx3I/AAAAAAAAGcs/pNM3dHXul5g/s1600/Les_noces_Stravinsky_laurson_600.png)
Whitsun Salzburg: Stravinsky for Dummies
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/05/whitsun-salzburg-stravinsky-for-dummies.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/05/whitsun-salzburg-stravinsky-for-dummies.html)
The topic this year was "OPFER/SACRIFICE", with thematic and linguistic links which had to
include the two most famous 'sacrifices' in music: Bach's Musical Offering and of course
Le sacre du printemps. It was the latter I went to see—a Stravinsky triple bill of Les
noces ("The Wedding"), Sacre, and L'oiseau de feu ("The Firebird"), with Gergiev
at the helm of the Mariinsky troupe... both orchestra and ballet.
On the centenary of the première of Le sacre, I am listening to the piece during a southern New England thunderstorm. No, I don't believe that it gets any better than this.
On the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the Rite, I wrote this column, which hasd yetr to appear in the paper:
The following column will appear in the Norristown Times Herald on Sunday, June 2:
The day music changed: The 100th anniversary of 'The Rite of Spring'
By Joe Barron
One hundred years ago this week, on May 29, 1913, a riot took place in Paris. The trigger was not the price of bread, or the arms race in Europe, or the constitutional right of citizens to carry concealed weapons.
It was the premiere of a ballet.
The hissing began at the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées during the first few notes of Igor Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring," as the bassoon softly wailed a Russian folk melody in an unnaturally high register.
"Then, when the curtain opened, a group of knock-kneed and long-braided Lolitas jumping up and down, the storm broke," the composer recalled almost 50 years later. "Cries of 'ta geule' (shut up) came from behind me. I left the hall in a rage."
Stravinsky's driving score and Vaslav Nijinsky's spastic choreography (which even Stravinsky didn't like) turned everything patrons thought they knew about ballet on its head. Fistfights broke out, and, as Stephen Walsh says in his biography of the composer, "if the music was heard at all, it can only have been as a component of the general uproar."
Controversy has continued for a century about just what the audience was reacting to, and what that reaction says about the relationship of the artist to his or her public. Certainly, Stravinsky meant no offense. If he had, he would have been delighted by the scandal, but, he continued in his memoir, "I have never again been that angry. The music was so familiar to me, I loved it, and I could not understand why people who had not yet heard it wanted to protest in advance."
What is equally certain is that the music, if not the dancing, became the touchstone for everything that followed. It appears at the top of everyone's list of most important works of the 20th century, at least everyone who still cares about that sort of thing. Nothing like it had ever been heard before — and this at a time when a lot of other people were writing the sort of stuff that had never been heard before — and nothing exactly like it has been heard since. Even Stravinsky himself couldn't top it.
Within 10 years, he moved on to cooler, more elegant forms of expression, and none of the music he wrote afterward, great as much of it is, is performed nearly as frequently today.
In a point of local pride, the U.S. premiere took place in 1922, when Leopold Stokowski led the Philadelphia Orchestra in a concert performance. Ever since, American musicians have spoken of their first experience with the piece as a revelation: Men as different in age and outlook as Elliott Carter and Frank Zappa have said that hearing it made them want to become composers. Kids in conservatories are still imitating it, if only unconsciously.
For me, appreciation came only gradually. I first heard the "Rite" in high school, and I did not like it for a long time. In retrospect, I understand my aversion had less to do with the music than with my recording of it. It was Stravinsky's own, a performance he conducted in his late 70s. It's not bad, but it lacks fire, and it lags badly toward the end.
Then, one glorious evening listening to the radio, I heard the recording by George Solti and the Chicago Symphony, and I said, "OK, I get it now." It remains my favorite version, and it is the one I listened to on the anniversary of the premiere.
This music has become a part of me, as it has for so many others, and friends have heard bits of it escape from me at odd moments, either as humming or as whistling. It's an embarrassment, but embarrassment is the price I'm willing to pay for having my life enriched in such a profound way.
A lot has happened in the past hundred years to make a riot over a piece of music seem quaint. Yet the undiminished vitality of "The Rite of Spring" keeps a piece of that remote world alive like nothing else, and reminds us of the power of art to throw the world off its axis. The experience of that first night must have been overwhelming. Had I been there, I would have been frightened, too.
Joe, didn't know it was you. Welcome back!
Thanks, Karl, but I thought it was obvious. The Ives handle and and a bunch of pro-Carter posts -- who else would do that? Certainly not Sean.
Oh, I admit, it was inattentive of me.
Any recommendations for a good recording of his violin concerto? A recording that pairs it with another of the works from his neo-classical period would be particularly nice.
I'm not sure what its current availability is, and it is paired not with more Stravinsky but with the Shostakovich Tenth (so my suggestion is in quite serious non-compliance) . . . but if pressed, I am apt to prefer Schniederhan playing, with Ančerl at the podium.
After browsing through available recordings of the Violin Concerto, I realize there are a great many I have not heard, so I would be interested in responses as well. (I have Perlman and Hahn.)
Meanwhile, I seem to have missed this lovely post below - sounds like a great evening (or whenever it occurred).
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2013, 06:58:57 PM
On the centenary of the première of Le sacre, I am listening to the piece during a southern New England thunderstorm. No, I don't believe that it gets any better than this.
--Bruce
Quote from: Geo Dude on August 01, 2013, 05:34:11 AM
Any recommendations for a good recording of his violin concerto? A recording that pairs it with another of the works from his neo-classical period would be particularly nice.
I like either Mullova or Chung. Neither are coupled with other Stravinsky works but seeing as these are bread-n-butter works for soloists that might be difficult.
[asin]B000024MOM[/asin]
[asin]B0000041V4[/asin]
Thanks for the tips. I'm planning an order and was hoping to avoid having to pick up two discs to hear another neo-classical period work in the interest of keeping cheap and all.;) I've heard Hahn's performance and like it and may try that. Or I may try Mullova because I'm curious about the Bartok Concerto.
Sooo....I'll give in and ask: What single disc (or double disc issue if it's reasonably priced) of Stravinsky's neo-classical era work would you folks recommend that's not paired with the concerto?
Quote from: Geo Dude on August 01, 2013, 05:34:11 AM
Any recommendations for a good recording of his violin concerto? A recording that pairs it with another of the works from his neo-classical period would be particularly nice.
Definitely can't go wrong with Chung/Previn, Hahn/Marriner, or Lin/Salonen. These are my top recommendations.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 01, 2013, 06:50:51 PM
Definitely can't go wrong with Chung/Previn, Hahn/Marriner, or Lin/Salonen. These are my top recommendations.
What about Mutter (with Lutoslawski)?
Two of my favorites from that middle period are Pulcinella (complete, with the singers, i.e.) and Le baiser de la fée (again, I prefer it complete):
[asin]B000CEVU4E[/asin]
Quote from: snyprrr on August 01, 2013, 10:03:33 PM
What about Mutter (with Lutoslawski)?
Very good performance indeed. I can't list every performance I've heard of Stravinsky's VC but rather I narrowed down my choices to two favorites, which I did above.
Some of you have probably already seen this, but here is an excellent interview with Stravinsky. (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/stravinsky-on-stravinsky)
This is rather good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtrCvdH_Alk
Only a shame there wasn't a bit of variation in camera angles.
my, thats is pretty amazing
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 01, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
[asin]B000024MOM[/asin]
Old post, but I love this recording, incidentally. I think the Bartók concerto was what I listened to first; it starts with one of the great solo entrances in the literature, two bars of quiet B major chords from the harp, lower strings entering with the bass line sotto voce, then the violin coming in fortissimo with a wide-ranging and passionate melody, bringing with it an opening-out of orchestral scope with individual notes being picked up and sustained by horns and clarinets. Within about two seconds of Mullova's entrance I was like "damn, this girl is
good"; my admiration continued to increase over the course of the piece, including some of the most beautiful sounds I'd ever heard from the A string and some quite tasteful quarter tones where appropriate. Part of that was Bartók—it was my first exposure to the piece, and Bartók is pretty much the greatest composer ever—but the Stravinsky, which I'd previously thought of as pleasant, superficial and mannered, made me much more receptive to the piece. Mullova delivers a coolly mysterious Aria I, a poignant Aria II and a Capriccio whose frivolous neoclassicisms start to seem almost desperate, as though it's teetering on the edge of something much more menacing that's just pulled back at the last minute (foretastes of the Symphony in C and
Jeu de cartes). I'd recommend it over the only other recording of the Stravinsky I have which is Mutter's (although that may be worth it for hardcore Dutilleux fans).
Anyway... Stravinsky. Most of the "neoclassical period" stuff I like is somewhat atypical—the Symphony already mentioned,
Orpheus (which I've been fortunate enough to see live at the NYCB), some of
The Rake's Progress. I suppose in general the Craft recordings are the ones to have but I've not heard enough of the alternatives.
Orpheus is a beauty, no question.
Are Stravinsky and Prokofiev jewish?
I haven't read the thread and probably has already been discussed but: what good recordings of The Soldier's Tale without a narrator are out there?
I like Craft & al.
[asin]B000L42J90[/asin]
I have no quarrel with the Boulez & Cleveland (DGG).
Quote from: North Star on December 20, 2013, 06:19:54 AM
I have no quarrel with the Boulez & Cleveland (DGG).
Nor I . . . I need to spin that one again.
Quote from: sanantonio on December 20, 2013, 06:48:42 AM
Boston Chamber Players
[asin]B0043WBZP0[/asin]
That two-fer
does look nice . . . though seeing
Jn Gielgud there, I suspect he's narrating, and the query was
sans récitateur :)
Oh, I am sure I should like it . . . in fact, I have an idea that that may have been the first L'histoire ever I heard, myself . . . .
The trio version is good fun, although perhaps half the score is not arranged.
Thanks, I see there is plenty to choose from and available.
For DBM:
Stravinsky
Danses Concertantes
Robert Craft
Columbia Chamber Orchestra
Sony Classical
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
One of my favorite Stravinsky ballets, besides Petrouchka and Le sacre du printemps, is Apollo. For me, the last movement (Apotheosis) is one of Stravinsky's most compelling utterances. I don't enjoy much of Stravinsky's music these days, but I can at least acknowledge the man's brilliance and Apollo is, indeed, a brilliant ballet.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2013, 08:37:14 PM
One of my favorite Stravinsky ballets, besides Petrouchka and Le sacre du printemps, is Apollo. For me, the last movement (Apotheosis) is one of Stravinsky's most compelling utterances. I don't enjoy much of Stravinsky's music these days, but I can at least acknowledge the man's brilliance and Apollo is, indeed, a brilliant ballet.
A great one indeed, John. One of favourites as well.
For DBM, this superb ballet! :)
Stravinsky
Orpheus
Stravinsky
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Sony Classical
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
More DBM, these three great ballets! :)
Stravinsky
Apollo
*Agon
**Jeu de Cartes
Stravinsky
Columbia Symphony Orchestra
*Los Angeles Festival Symphony Orchestra
**The Cleveland Orchestra
Sony Classical
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
Groovimondo, Ray!
Some more listening from The Box:
Very enjoyable Variations, though the recording has oodles of reverb! Capriccio for piano and orchestra is also quite interesting (no harmful tone rows in this one ;)). Very pleasant Danses concertantes (unmistakably Stravinsky... was that a reference to Good King Wenceslas in one of the variations?) and the miniatures in Suite No. 1.
Didn't care much for Suite No. 2, nor for the Basie and Dumbarton Oaks concerti. Same for the Sonatas for piano(s), the Serenade in A and the Concerto for 2 solo pianos. I listened to the Variations after these, and it felt like a cleansing of the ears :).
Sonically, the piano works are deficient, but are of historical interest (the Concerto per due pianoforti performed by the composer together with his son, Soulima, e.g.)
I think it was the DRD recording of the Concerto in D which sold me on that piece.
Spent a very agreeable time today with the Ebony Concerto and the Septet, two old acquaintances.
Some other pleasurable highlights, though to a lesser degree (clearly denoting it would be worthwhile to spend more time to decant and delight in them) were Preludium for Jazz Ensemble, Concertino for 12 instruments, Ragtime for 11 instruments, Tango, Pastorale and Symphonies of Wind Instruments.
Duo Concertant and Piano - Rag Music didn't particularly warm me up. The first left me with the impression that another, more modern, recording might make it quite appealing.
Quote from: sanantonio on January 02, 2014, 12:17:02 PM
Ragtime for 11 instruments and Tango are two favorites. But, there is not much by Stravinsky that I do not enjoy (the early works do the least for me).
:)
+ 1
Quote from: petrarch on January 02, 2014, 12:06:15 PM
Some other pleasurable highlights, though to a lesser degree (clearly denoting it would be worthwhile to spend more time to decant and delight in them) were Preludium for Jazz Ensemble, Concertino for 12 instruments, Ragtime for 11 instruments, Tango, Pastorale and Symphonies of Wind Instruments.
Thanks for mentioning the
Preludium for Jazz Ensemble . . . it is slight enough, and I may only have listened to it once before, that I did not recall it, so your mention drove me to drop it into the playlist. Fleeting, but very nice!
I have the old Philips 2cd of Complete Violin Music with Olli Mustonen and Isabella van Kuelen(?). A very curious recording- I'd love to know if anyone else has heard it (have I asked this before?).
Quote from: snyprrr on January 02, 2014, 07:40:12 PM
I have the old Philips 2cd of Complete Violin Music with Olli Mustonen and Isabella van Kuelen(?). A very curious recording- I'd love to know if anyone else has heard it (have I asked this before?).
I'm interested in getting either the Keulen (reissue on Newton Classics) or the Marwood (Hyperion); if anyone knows both and finds any advantage in one or the other, that would be good to know.
It looks like the Keulen/Mustonen includes the short
Élégie (1944), not included (?) on the Marwood.
I notice that the
Tango on Newton disc says "arr. Mustonen". I wonder if the same arrangement was used on the later Hyperion recording?
Quote from: Octave on January 02, 2014, 08:55:04 PM
I'm interested in getting either the Keulen (reissue on Newton Classics) or the Marwood (Hyperion); if anyone knows both and finds any advantage in one or the other, that would be good to know.
It looks like the Keulen/Mustonen includes the short Élégie (1944), not included (?) on the Marwood.
I notice that the Tango on Newton disc says "arr. Mustonen". I wonder if the same arrangement was used on the later Hyperion recording?
Nope, it's by Samuel Dushkin (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/tw.asp?w=W12785&t=GBAJY0972325&al=CDA67723), with whom Stravinsky toured, and for whom he dedicated
Duo Concertante and
Divertimento, and who also helped with the composition of the VC.
Quote from: James on January 02, 2014, 12:16:06 PM
Try the Hyperion release with Marwood & Adès.
Quote from: James on January 02, 2014, 06:12:06 PM
The Hyperion 2CD set has the complete music for violin & piano for the price of 1 CD.
Quote from: James on January 03, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
The 2010 Hyperion recording is the one to get.
Quote from: BeatriceI wonder that you will still be talking, Signior: nobody marks you.
I have finally gotten around to buying that Marwood/Ades set on Hyperion. I've heard nothing but great things about it and the audio samples via Hyperion's website sounded fantastic.
There's one thing about it once I enter into a Stravinsky phase, it's hard not to buy a few more recordings. :)
Stravinsky is so delightfully listenable!
Quote from: sanantonio on February 12, 2014, 10:35:00 AM
That Norrington recording you just bought looked interesting; I'm always up for a Historie du soldat suite.
Yeah, I hope it's good. I'm not the greatest Norrington fan in the world, but he's always doing something different.
Quote from: sanantonio on February 12, 2014, 10:35:00 AM
That Norrington recording you just bought looked interesting; I'm always up for a Historie du soldat suite.
I'm chasing you round the Threads! A certain Xenakis string motif is lifted from 'Le Sacre'- the Introduction of the magis or something. Very staccato- four stabs moving.
What do you Stravinskians think of The Nightingale? I believe it was written between The Firebird and Le sacre du printemps. I was just listening to Craft's recording of it last night and found it pretty magnificent.
I love it, and that is a fine recording. I saw you listening to that on the WAYLT thread, and I wondered that it was included in the Ballets box :)
Saw a performance of it at the Mariinsky, terrific piece.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2014, 05:34:01 AM
I love it, and that is a fine recording. I saw you listening to that on the WAYLT thread, and I wondered that it was included in the Ballets box :)
Saw a performance of it at the Mariinsky, terrific piece.
It's a great work certainly. The Craft ballet box actually contains tons of extras because this wasn't a specially compiled box as, in true Naxos fashion, it contains the actual releases in jewel cases. The only thing that was done special for the set was the outer box that the jewel cases slide into. So I think the title of the box set is a bit misleading as it's much more than just ballets.
BTW, you're lucky to have seen the entire work live. I would love to experience some Stravinsky live particularly less-known works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 05:15:03 AM
What do you Stravinskians think of The Nightingale? I believe it was written between The Firebird and Le sacre du printemps. I was just listening to Craft's recording of it last night and found it pretty magnificent.
I haven't listened to it for ages, but it's never been one of my favourite Stravinsky scores (as is the case with
Le Chant du Rossignol derived from it, and that we talked about yesterday). The opera was started
before The Firebird, and finished
after Le Sacre. This is by now a cliche, but the stylistic incoherence is quite noticeable, making this a "hybrid" score, as far as the idiom is concerned. I might give it a new try tonight (the Boulez account on Erato -- I don't own the Craft).
Quote from: ritter on February 13, 2014, 05:42:11 AM
I haven't listened to it for ages, but it's never been one of my favourite Stravinsky scores (as is the case with Le Chant du Rossignol derived from it, and that we talked about yesterday). The opera was started before The Firebird, and finished after Le Sacre. This is by now a cliche, but the stylistic incoherence is quite noticeable, making this a "hybrid" score, as far as the style is concerned. I might give it a new try tonight (the Boulez account on Erato -- I don't own the Craft).
Ah yes, thanks for the correction. I love this hybrid style, but I love all phases of Stravinsky. Is the Boulez performance on Erato the full opera?
Edit: Yep, Boulez recorded the full opera. Excellent! I just bought it:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Dp4EYeCcL.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 05:44:47 AM
Ah yes, thanks for the correction. I love this hybrid style, but I love all phases of Stravinsky. Is the Boulez performance on Erato the full opera?
Indeed. This was the original cover:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Dp4EYeCcL._SY300_.jpg)
He's also recorded the
Chant, that I remember, with Cleveland--but that you have ;) --, the Orchestre National de France--also on Erato--, the NYPO--on Sony--, and most recently with the Lucerne Festival Academy. He clearly likes the piece ;)
I too love all of Stravinsky's styles (well, perhaps, there are some pieces form the end of the neoclassical period that I find subpar -- even if it's Stravinsky), but I don't know what it is with the
Nightingale that I can't warm to it :-[ :-\
Quote from: ritter on February 13, 2014, 06:02:50 AM
Indeed. This was the original cover:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Dp4EYeCcL._SY300_.jpg)
He's also recorded the Chant, that I remember, with Cleveland--but that you have ;) --, the Orchestre National de France--also on Erato--, the NYPO--on Sony--, and most recently with the Lucerne Festival Academy. He clearly likes the piece ;)
I too love all of Stravinsky's styles (well, perhaps, there are some pieces form the end of the neoclassical period that I find subpar -- even if it's Stravinsky), but I don't know what it is with the Nightingale that I can't warm to it :-[ :-\
Yep, I own all of Boulez's
Le Chant de Rossignol performances. All of them were fine to my ears. I really don't know which one I prefer. What are some of your favorite Stravinsky works?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 06:26:44 AM
Yep, I own all of Boulez's Le Chant de Rossignol performances. All of them were fine to my ears. I really don't know which one I prefer. What are some of your favorite Stravinsky works?
Many, many...off the top of my head:
- Firebird
- Petrushka
- Sacre
- Agon
- Canticum Sacrum
- Dumbarton Oaks Concerto
- Variations for orchestra, Aldous Huxley in memoriam
- Les Noces
- Scherzo à la Russe
- Requiem Canticles
..and many more :)
Perhaps it's easier to list those I don't like
that much ;) : Apollo, The Rake's Progress (I find it always bores me to tears--except a couple of brilliant moments--even after seeing it fully staged--Auden libretto and all ::) ), the Nightingale, the Cantata, Ode, Four Norwegian moods...
Quote from: ritter on February 13, 2014, 06:34:44 AM
Many, many...off the top of my head:
- Firebird
- Petrushka
- Sacre
- Agon
- Canticum Sacrum
- Dumbarton Oaks Concerto
- Variations for orchestra, Aldous Huxley in memoriam
- Les Noces
- Scherzo à la Russe
- Requiem Canticles
..and many more :)
Perhaps it's easier to list those I don't like that much ;) : Apollo, The Rake's Progress (I find it always bores me to tears--except a couple of brilliant moments--even after seeing it fully staged--Auden libretto and all ::) ), the Nightingale, the Cantata, Ode, Four Norwegian moods...
I love all of those works even those that you don't enjoy that much. 8) A special nod to all of his concertante works as well like the
Violin Concerto,
Ebony Concerto,
Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra, and
Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments.
Yep, missed the Violin concerto :-[ What a wonderful coda at the end. :) Had the chance of seeing it live with Vengerov, and Boulez conducting the London Symphony here in Madrid (rather unusual -- Boulez isn't really a fan of the work)...great concert!
I missed one of my TOP favourites in my list: Pulcinella !!! ...I never grow tired of it..."Pupillette, fiammette d'amore..." :) :) :)
Quote from: ritter on February 13, 2014, 06:46:04 AM
Yep, missed the Violin concerto :-[ What a wonderful coda at the end. :) Had the chance of seeing it live with Vengerov, and Boulez conducting the London Symphony here in Madrid (rather unusual -- Boulez isn't really a fan of the work)...great concert!
I missed one of my TOP favourites in my list: Pulcinella !!! ...I never grow tired of it..."Pupillette, fiammette d'amore..." :) :) :)
Excellent. I'm sure that concerto was well-performed by Vengerov (who recorded with Rostropovich on EMI). I'm not surprised Boulez doesn't like the work. There's a lot of music he just doesn't like period. :)
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:
Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire du soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 06:49:19 AM
. . . I'm not surprised Boulez doesn't like the work. There's a lot of music he just doesn't like period. :)
Yes,
Boulez is quite finicky, really 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2014, 06:49:29 AM
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:
Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire de soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch
All great works! There's not much by Stravinsky I dislike, but I need to revisit
Perséphone and
Mavra.
No, scarcely anything I dislike, either!
Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2014, 06:57:17 AM
No, scarcely anything I dislike, either!
The consistency in Stravinsky's oeuvre is just awe-inspiring.
Reading your comments, Karlhenning and Mirror image, I realise those works I love that I omitted form my rashly prepared list :-[ : The Symphonies for wind instruments! The Danses concertantes! Le Baiser de la fée (by far, Tchaikovsky's best ballet ;D )... Stravinsky certainly is an embarras de richesses, from the Pastorale all the way to The Owl and the pussycat....
Have you heard Alexander Goehr's On Stravinsky (based on the Pastorale)?...quite clever and delightful :) Here's an excerpt (but the part in which the Pastorale appears is missing form the video :( )...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmWBFFH_lvU
Edited to add the missing link to YouTube
Quote from: ritter on February 13, 2014, 07:04:45 AM
Reading your comments, Karlhenning and Mirror image, I realise those works I love that I omitted form my rashly prepared list :-[ : The Symphonies for wind instruments! The Danses concertantes! Le Baiser de la fée (by far, Tchaikovsky's best ballet ;D )... Stravinsky certainly is an embarras de richesses, from the Pastorale all the way to The Owl and the pussycat....
Have you heard Alexander Goehr's On Stravinsky (based on the Pastorale)?...quite clever and delightful :) Here's an excerpt (but the part in which the Pastorale apperas is missing form the video :( )...
Le Baiser de la fee is an excellent work. I listened to it the other day. Absolutely magical. The
Pastorale is a great little piece, too. Once I get into a Stravinsky phase, it's just so hard to turn it off. He practically consumes most of my listening time. Before I know it, the sun has set and I'm left wondering where did the day go? ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2014, 06:49:29 AM
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:
Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire du soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch
I've missed out on a few on your list. I'd like to change that at some point. Any thoughts on
Renard, Karl? I'm a big fan of the piece.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 13, 2014, 11:31:51 AM
I've missed out on a few on your list. I'd like to change that at some point. Any thoughts on Renard, Karl? I'm a big fan of the piece.
I'm not Karl, but I love
Renard. I think it's highly underrated to be honest because you never see it recorded that much. The music itself it chockfull of Stravinskian goodness. :) If I'm mistaken, this was a short, small-scale opera, right?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 11:33:42 AM
I'm not Karl, but I love Renard. I think it's highly underrated to be honest because you never see it recorded that much. The music itself it chockfull of Stravinskian goodness. :) If I'm mistaken, this was a short, small-scale opera, right?
The booklet notes to my recording (Dutoit) describe it as a
"burlesque for singing and acting". So stage work, yes. Probably small-scale opera would work, too.
Actually, with nothing but animal characters - and its fox central character - it almost reads like a small-scaled
Cunning Little Vixen!
Quote from: sanantonio on February 13, 2014, 12:07:43 PM
Karl's list has most of my favorites, as well. And it caused me to pull out this nice recording with three of them on it ~
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51289Ji4shL._SX300_.jpg)
Canticum Sacrum
Agon
Requiem Canticles
Gielen
That's a CD I've thought many times of buying, since it includes three Stravinsky works which are among my favourites too...and these pieces should suit Gielen like a glove...
Incidentally, friends of mine who had the chance to chat with Gielen once, reported that he said something to the effect that the
Requiem Canticles were his favourite of all Requiem settings he knew...(and I share that view ;) )...
As for
Renard,
Mirror Image, it's more a ballet with singing, or a pantomime, than an opera..all very tongue-in-cheek, with that circus-like atmosphere, and it's over in a flash. Delightful. Boulez made a classic recording in his Domaine Musical days, availbale in this (very interesting) box set:
[asin]B000CRQZNM[/asin]
Renard is good fun! Really, I love any of his cimbalom pieces . . . .
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 13, 2014, 12:03:54 PM
The booklet notes to my recording (Dutoit) describe it as a "burlesque for singing and acting". So stage work, yes. Probably small-scale opera would work, too.
Actually, with nothing but animal characters - and its fox central character - it almost reads like a small-scaled Cunning Little Vixen!
Very cool, DD. 8) Thanks for the info.
Quote from: sanantonio on February 13, 2014, 12:07:43 PM
Karl's list has most of my favorites, as well. And it caused me to pull out this nice recording with three of them on it ~
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51289Ji4shL._SX300_.jpg)
Canticum Sacrum
Agon
Requiem Canticles
Gielen
A fabulous disc: I can't recommend it highly enough.
Quote from: ritter on February 13, 2014, 12:22:36 PM
As for Renard, Mirror Image, it's more a ballet with singing, or a pantomime, than an opera..all very tongue-in-cheek, with that circus-like atmosphere, and it's over in a flash. Delightful. Boulez made a classic recording in his Domaine Musical days, availbale in this (very interesting) box set:
[asin]B000CRQZNM[/asin]
Ah okay. Thanks SA. How many discs are in that Boulez set? Looks very interesting.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 01:48:28 PM
Ah okay. Thanks SA. How many discs are in that Boulez set? Looks very interesting.
It's actually two volumes, of 4 CDs each (volume one has a bonus CD as well).
The first volume has Stockhausen, Pousseur, Nono, Henze (before his "exile" from the Darmstadt avantgarde), Messiaen and Boulez himself (Le
Marteau twice--the first
and second recordings of the work).
The second volume has Stravinsky (
Renard,
Agon--under Rosbaud), Schoenberg (
Pierrot,
Serenade, etc.), Webern and Berg.
Both volumes constitute an important document for anyone interested in 20th century music, or in Boulez...
Highly recommended!
Quote from: ritter on February 13, 2014, 02:11:27 PM
It's actually two volumes, of 4 CDs each (volume one has a bonus CD as well).
The first volume has Stockhausen, Pousseur, Nono, Henze (before his "exile" from the Darmstadt avantgarde), Messiaen and Boulez himself (Le Marteau twice--the first and second recordings of the work).
The second volume has Stravinsky (Renard, Agon--under Rosbaud), Schoenberg (Pierrot, Serenade, etc.), Webern and Berg.
Both volumes constitute an important document for anyone interested in 20th century music, or in Boulez...
Highly recommended!
Very cool, thanks for the info, SA. 8)
Does anyone have a favorite performance of the Violin Concerto? I would say mine is a toss-up between Hahn/Marriner, Chung/Previn, and Lin/Salonen. I can't decide which one I prefer. Gil Shaham has a new one coming out. I'm sure it will be good. I remember Mutter's performance being good.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 09:11:44 PM
Does anyone have a favorite performance of the Violin Concerto? I would say mine is a toss-up between Hahn/Marriner, Chung/Previn, and Lin/Salonen. I can't decide which one I prefer. Gil Shaham has a new one coming out. I'm sure it will be good. I remember Mutter's performance being good.
I like Gitlis. He can be naughty which is often very good.
Quote from: springrite on February 16, 2014, 09:15:23 PM
I like Gitlis. He can be naughty which is often very good.
Slightly naughty, slightly serious is a good mixture for Stravinsky.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 09:17:46 PM
Slightly naughty, slightly serious is a good mixture for Stravinsky.
Interesting how that describes us both, with your being slightly more naughty though often not intentionally so...
Quote from: springrite on February 16, 2014, 09:19:33 PM
Interesting how that describes us both, with your being slightly more naughty though often not intentionally so...
No wonder I love Stravinsky then! ;) ;D It's fun being transfixed between those two emotional worlds. :)
Perhaps my favorite recording of the Violin Concerto is Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Ančerl/Berliners.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2014, 03:06:43 AM
Perhaps my favorite recording of the Violin Concerto is Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Ančerl/Berliners.
I have not heard that one.
BTW Karl, have you gained weight? Only 40% of your face could fit into the frame now, it seems...
Strictly, no . . . but I may be acquiring gravitas! :laugh: 0:) 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2014, 03:44:42 AM
Strictly, no . . . but I may be acquiring gravitas! :laugh: 0:) 8)
Always preferred to airiness, I'd say!
One of my favorite phrases from Brave New World: "Charmingly pneumatic" . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2014, 03:06:43 AM
Perhaps my favorite recording of the Violin Concerto is Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Ančerl/Berliners.
Cool, Karl. I don't believe I own this one. I'll check it out.
Can anyone recommend some good books on Stravinsky?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2014, 07:17:41 AM
Can anyone recommend some good books on Stravinsky?
If you haven't read his books of conversations with Robert Craft, they're a must, and highly entertaining (even if recent scholars have apparently proved that there's more Craft than Stravinsky in many of the composer's assertions).
And this book was a fascinating read:
[asin]0520256158[/asin]
Very enjoyable and informative! I must get round to reading volume 1... :-[
Thanks for the recommendation, Ritter. I'm thinking of getting the Stravinsky book written by Michael Oliver on Phaidon. I own several of these books and they're quite good and contain many rare photographs of the composers.
Quote from: ritter on February 17, 2014, 07:31:37 AM
If you haven't read his books of conversations with Robert Craft, they're a must, and highly entertaining (even if recent scholars have apparently proved that there's more Craft than Stravinsky in many of the composer's assertions).
And this book was a fascinating read:
[asin]0520256158[/asin]
Very enjoyable and informative! I must get round to reading volume 1... :-[
Both volumes are essential reading, IMO.
Also essential reading:
Eric Walter White, Stravinsky: The Composer and His Works[asin]0520039858[/asin]
Quote from: ritter on February 17, 2014, 07:31:37 AM
If you haven't read his books of conversations with Robert Craft, they're a must, and highly entertaining (even if recent scholars have apparently proved that there's more Craft than Stravinsky in many of the composer's assertions).
I've not gotten around to them, mostly because that "textual cloud" hangs over them . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2014, 09:03:01 AM
I've not gotten around to them, mostly because that "textual cloud" hangs over them . . . .
Yep, that "textual cloud" is a problem, but they are GREAT FUN to read :D ... I read the first 3 many, many years ago, and at that time the doubts about who actually was saying what in these conversations were not as strong as they are today. Even with our current knowledge, the books are delightful... :)
Will take note of Eric Walter White's book...thanks,
Karlhenning!
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2014, 09:02:14 AM
Both volumes are essential reading, IMO.
Also essential reading:
Eric Walter White, Stravinsky: The Composer and His Works
[asin]0520039858[/asin]
Thanks for the feedback, Karl! Will definitely be considering them in the future.
What do all of my fellow Stravinskians think of the ballet Orpheus? What do you think Stravinsky was trying to convey here? Any favorite performances?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 05:42:19 PM
What do all of my fellow Stravinskians think of the ballet Orpheus? What do you think Stravinsky was trying to convey here? Any favorite performances?
I adore Orpheus. I had an old vinyl I liked on Philips, Colin Davis and maybe LSO. Chailly is good.
I think he was trying to not use flash and color.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2014, 06:49:29 AM
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:
Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire du soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch
My top 3 are missing.
Dumbarton Oaks
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes
After that it's hard. Canticum, Apollo, Noces, Rite, Scenes, 3 mvmts, Psalms, Orpheus, Rex
Different order next week, but same top 3
Quote from: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 06:52:05 PM
I adore Orpheus. I had an old vinyl I liked on Philips, Colin Davis and maybe LSO. Chailly is good.
I think he was trying to not use flash and color.
Yep, I think Stravinsky was trying to convey a different type of atmosphere with
Orpheus. What's interesting is
Apollo also conjures this dreamy, almost surreal, soundscape.
I don't own, or haven't heard, nearly as much as some of you, but I do adore quite a bit from Stravinsky, mainly his neo-classical sound.
Favorites
Dumbarton Oaks
L'histoire du soldat
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
Petrushka
Quote from: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
My top 3 are missing.
Dumbarton Oaks
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes
After that it's hard. Canticum, Apollo, Noces, Rite, Scenes, 3 mvmts, Psalms, Orpheus, Rex
Different order next week, but same top 3
Eek. Forgot Ebony Concerto.
If I ever got a chance to conduct I'd want to do Jeu de Cartes.
For one thing I know it cold, which is useful conducting when you don't read music!
But I think it's a hard piece to get right, and leaves lots of places for little touches.
Ashkenazy nails it.
Quote from: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 07:11:01 PM
If I ever got a chance to conduct I'd want to do Jeu de Cartes.
For one thing I know it cold, which is useful conducting when you don't read music!
But I think it's a hard piece to get right, and leaves lots of places for little touches.
Ashkenazy nails it.
I like Abbado and Craft just fine. Haven't heard Ashkenazy, but I'm not fond of his conducting.
Quote from: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 06:52:05 PM
I adore Orpheus. I had an old vinyl I liked on Philips, Colin Davis and maybe LSO. Chailly is good.
I think he was trying to not use flash and color.
Did Chailly record
Orpheus? I know Ashkenazy did.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2014, 07:28:35 PM
Did Chailly record Orpheus? I know Ashkenazy did.
I might be confused, as I think it was concertgebouw. It's in the Decca box, and is good.
Kraft is certainly good as is Jarvi, but I liked Davis best.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 05:42:19 PM
What do all of my fellow Stravinskians think of the ballet Orpheus? What do you think Stravinsky was trying to convey here? Any favorite performances?
I have the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra version. They make a solid case for the work. I think I have to be in the right mood for it, though, subdued as it is. But no doubt it's awesome Stravinsky.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/006/MI0001006978.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2014, 07:47:52 PM
I have the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra version. They make a solid case for the work. I think I have to be in the right mood for it, though, subdued as it is. But no doubt it's awesome Stravinsky.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/006/MI0001006978.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Yep, that's a great disc. Think I'll spin it tonight. 8)
Quote from: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 07:31:01 PM
I might be confused, as I think it was concertgebouw. It's in the Decca box, and is good.
Kraft is certainly good as is Jarvi, but I liked Davis best.
Jarvi is a decent Stravinskian, but nowhere near a favorite of mine. Kraft makes some good cheese, but I know you meant
Craft. ;) ;D
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2014, 07:28:35 PM
Did Chailly record Orpheus? I know Ashkenazy did.
Nope, but he did record
Apollo. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 08:10:35 PM
Nope, but he did record Apollo. :)
I love Chaily's Stravinsky.
As far as what Stravinsky was trying to convey with
Orpheus, well, the work has such a delicate, wispy feel that it's hard not to view it as something of an anti-
Le Sacre. At least that's my impression. Dunno if there's any truth to that, though...
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 08:09:48 PM
Jarvi is a decent Stravinskian, but nowhere near a favorite of mine. Kraft makes some good cheese, but I know you meant Craft. ;) ;D
Actually I meant Stavins
cy, the well known Dutch composer.
:blank:
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2014, 08:33:49 PM
I love Chaily's Stravinsky.
As far as what Stravinsky was trying to convey with Orpheus, well, the work has such a delicate, wispy feel that it's hard not to view it as something of an anti-Le Sacre. At least that's my impression. Dunno if there's any truth to that, though...
Do you find that
Orpheus and
Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course,
Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in
Orpheus that takes me back to the
Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 08:38:15 PM
Do you find that Orpheus and Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course, Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in Orpheus that takes me back to the Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.
I do find that they do, even though they are unique in their own sense.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 08:38:15 PM
Do you find that Orpheus and Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course, Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in Orpheus that takes me back to the Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.
They DO make great disc-mates... ALWAYS and ForEver... I have Craft on Naxos (with 'Agon'), nice, fruity recordings. I'd like to try Salonen.
I like 'Orpheus' because of the marble white sound, the descending pattern that is so familiar, the tone. 'Apollo' is the exact foil- almost reminding me of a more masculine Finzi?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 08:38:15 PM
Do you find that Orpheus and Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course, Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in Orpheus that takes me back to the Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.
Yes, I think that's fair. The two works do seem to have similar dispositions. But
Apollo is definitely more apt to shred the musical line in many places whereas
Orpheus can't seem to do anything but revel in its serenity. Which is by design, of course.
Great job by Stravinsky to stick to his guns in
Orpheus.
BTW, earlier I was listening to the recording of
Apollo below and my fiancé remarked,
"I really like this piece...it's light but dark". That's a pretty good description. :)
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/4a/c9/148b124128a07e7c74618010.L.jpg)
Quote from: snyprrr on February 20, 2014, 07:09:07 AM
They DO make great disc-mates... ALWAYS and ForEver... I have Craft on Naxos (with 'Agon'), nice, fruity recordings. I'd like to try Salonen.
I like 'Orpheus' because of the marble white sound, the descending pattern that is so familiar, the tone. 'Apollo' is the exact foil- almost reminding me of a more masculine Finzi?
As usual, I'm amused and baffled by your posts. But do carry on! ;) ;D
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 20, 2014, 07:49:41 PM
Yes, I think that's fair. The two works do seem to have similar dispositions. But Apollo is definitely more apt to shred the musical line in many places whereas Orpheus can't seem to do anything but revel in its serenity. Which is by design, of course.
Great job by Stravinsky to stick to his guns in Orpheus.
BWT, earlier I was listening to the recording of Apollo below and my fiancé remarked, "I really like this piece...it's light but dark". That's a pretty good description. :)
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/4a/c9/148b124128a07e7c74618010.L.jpg)
I agree. Stravinsky always composed the music that
he wanted to and my hat is off to him for this kind of dedication. BTW, your fiance has great taste, too. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 20, 2014, 07:55:36 PM
BTW, your fiance has great taste, too. 8)
She doesn't always like the "moderns" but this one does it for her. :D
Quote from: snyprrr on February 20, 2014, 07:09:07 AM
They DO make great disc-mates... ALWAYS and ForEver... I have Craft on Naxos (with 'Agon'), nice, fruity recordings. I'd like to try Salonen.
I like 'Orpheus' because of the marble white sound, the descending pattern that is so familiar, the tone. 'Apollo' is the exact foil- almost reminding me of a more masculine Finzi?
Like John I,m puzzled. White is the adjective Stravinsky used for Apollo. Like John I find Orpheus softer, more pastel while still muted in color and contrast. Degas
I sort of worry that snypsss seems to feel that Finzi was a girly-man . . . .
This might be interesting (or perhaps not :-\ ):
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/cmajor716308.jpg)
From Presto Classical's "Future releases" page:
STRAVINSKY IN HOLLYWOOD explores the short-lived film career of this legendary composer, it is the story of his trials and tribulations with the Hollywood Studios, the story of an "old school" European artist knocking heads with the brash New World. Igor Stravinsky lived in the heart of Hollywood from 1939 until shortly before his death in 1971. He came expecting to find lucrative work composing for the movies. The film uses a combination of existing archival footage (some of it never before seen), interviews with Stravinsky and his assistant Robert Craft.
The documentary includes scenes from several big studio films of the 40s brought together for the first time with the music which Stravinsky wrote for them.
SOUND FORMAT DVD: PCM Stereo
PICTURE 16:9, HD
SUBTITLES: English, German (voice over and subtitles)
BOOKLET: E, G, F
TOTAL RUNNING TIME. 54 MINS
Not very generous running time for the 24 € price demanded! >:(
Maybe they'll have it at the library . . . .
So, I recently listened to "Symphonies of Wind Instruments". Didn't care for it. Then, I found a nice copy of a score on sale, so I bought it. I listened to it again with the score. Thought it was okay. Listened to it again with the score. Really liked it.
Any thoughts on this piece?
Quote from: EigenUser on May 24, 2014, 04:38:31 PM
So, I recently listened to "Symphonies of Wind Instruments". Didn't care for it. Then, I found a nice copy of a score on sale, so I bought it. I listened to it again with the score. Thought it was okay. Listened to it again with the score. Really liked it.
Any thoughts on this piece?
Not that one. Another similar experience.
It took me years to lie Dumbarton Oaks. I knew I should like it, I liked similar Igors. But it never excited me until one day, after dutifully listening several times a year for a few years, suddenly it clicked. It is one of my favourite Igors now.
Quote from: EigenUser on May 24, 2014, 04:38:31 PM
So, I recently listened to "Symphonies of Wind Instruments". Didn't care for it. Then, I found a nice copy of a score on sale, so I bought it. I listened to it again with the score. Thought it was okay. Listened to it again with the score. Really liked it.
Any thoughts on this piece?
Great piece, heard it live earlier this year. :)
Off the top of my head, my 11 favourites are probably these
Rite
Petrushka
Firebird
VC
Pulcinella
Apollo
Agon
Orpheus
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Symphony of Psalms
Les Noces
Quote from: North Star on May 25, 2014, 02:41:48 AM
Great piece, heard it live earlier this year. :)
Off the top of my head, my 11 favourites are probably these
Rite
Petrushka
Firebird
VC
Pulcinella
Apollo
Agon
Orpheus
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Symphony of Psalms
Les Noces
Stravinsky is a 'hit or miss' composer with me. I never liked Firebird (that's right), Les Noces, Pulcinella, or Symphony of Psalms very much. I mean, it's all great music, but I just didn't feel like I wanted to listen to it again immediately. I love (and play on violin) the VC, Scherzo a la Russe, Agon, Rite, and Petrushka. I'm also starting to like SWI as I stated in my previous post -- but it's short.
I think Rite is starting to slip as well, but it's my fault for over-playing it. "Agon" is my new favorite. I've seen it (more than once) described as his most cerebral piece, but I don't look at it in that way -- it just sounds like fun and joy to me. In fact, it puts me in a similar mood to that of the Haydn symphonies.
Quote from: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 05:27:42 AM
I think Rite is starting to slip as well, but it's my fault for over-playing it.
Read Boulez's analysis of it in his
Relevés d'apprenti. That gave me an entirely new perspective on the work.
Quote from: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 05:27:42 AM
Stravinsky is a 'hit or miss' composer with me. I never liked Firebird (that's right), Les Noces, Pulcinella, or Symphony of Psalms very much. I mean, it's all great music, but I just didn't feel like I wanted to listen to it again immediately. I love (and play on violin) the VC, Scherzo a la Russe, Agon, Rite, and Petrushka. I'm also starting to like SWI as I stated in my previous post -- but it's short.
I think Rite is starting to slip as well, but it's my fault for over-playing it. "Agon" is my new favorite. I've seen it (more than once) described as his most cerebral piece, but I don't look at it in that way -- it just sounds like fun and joy to me. In fact, it puts me in a similar mood to that of the Haydn symphonies.
Fwiw I don't care for the Firebird either. Not surprising in my case actually. You really need a good recording of Les Noces. I like Bernstein on DG. The composer's own is poor. Craft is good but Lenny is better. You might like the Ebony Concerto. In that the composer's recording rules.
I seem to go through a Stravinsky 'phase' every year and what I learn each time is that he was an incredibly consistent composer. I think he's such a master and there's not a stone that I have yet unturned in his relatively good size oeuvre. Great stuff.
Quote from: Ken B on May 25, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Fwiw I don't care for the Firebird either. Not surprising in my case actually. You really need a good recording of Les Noces. I like Bernstein on DG. The composer's own is poor. Craft is good but Lenny is better. You might like the Ebony Concerto. In that the composer's recording rules.
I've heard the "Ebony Concerto" -- I think that it might follow a path similar to SWI. I should hear it again. I should also hear "Dumbarton Oaks" considering I live less than 30 miles from Dumbarton Oaks :D.
I didn't like the "Concerto in D" (the concerto grosso) much at all. The VC, on the other hand, is a different story. That is one of my favorite concertos to play on violin, along with the Mendelssohn E minor.
I find Stravinsky more challenging to "figure out" because he seemed to like changing his style at every full moon.
Quote from: petrarch on May 25, 2014, 06:10:49 AM
Read Boulez's analysis of it in his Relevés d'apprenti. That gave me an entirely new perspective on the work.
I'll check it out sometime. Thanks!
Another Firebird non-lover here. Overexposure to it (recordings, radio, live concerts) has made me immune to its, admittedly, attractive qualities. My local band (the Rheinland-Pfalz) has once again programmed it for the upcoming season...sigh. It comes up so often it's like conductors don't realize Stravinsky composed other works.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2014, 07:30:20 AM
Another Firebird non-lover here. Overexposure to it (recordings, radio, live concerts) has made me immune to its, admittedly, attractive qualities. My local band (the Rheinland-Pfalz) has once again programmed it for the upcoming season...sigh. It comes up so often it's like conductors don't realize Stravinsky composed other works.
Sarge
It has always been his most popular work. It made him tons of money, so enabled a lot of great music. But I am glad too that there are others who share my reaction. Now if I could just convince you guys that La Mer and the other behemoth showpieces of that ilk, Pictures for instance, are the same kind of animal ...
Quote from: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 07:28:09 AM
I've heard the "Ebony Concerto" -- I think that it might follow a path similar to SWI. I should hear it again. I should also hear "Dumbarton Oaks" considering I live less than 30 miles from Dumbarton Oaks :D.
I didn't like the "Concerto in D" (the concerto grosso) much at all. The VC, on the other hand, is a different story. That is one of my favorite concertos to play on violin, along with the Mendelssohn E minor.
I find Stravinsky more challenging to "figure out" because he seemed to like changing his style at every full moon.
I'll check it out sometime. Thanks!
Md. or Va.?
SWI is just a jolly little 8mins., nothing more. But apparently I'm missing something- isn't it supposed to be some kind of Dada Masterpiece? Or is that the 'Octet'? SWI sounds like marionette music to me.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
Md. or Va.?
Va. You?
I'm not sure if you're in the market for sheet music, but there is this huge sheet music store going out of business in Silver Spring, MD. Lots of scores available for cheap. I even saw an oversized Xenakis score ("Eonta", I think) crammed in with the miniature score section. They'll be closed for good on June 28th, I think.
The more I hear SWI, the more I think of Rite -- especially the introduction (to Rite) with all of the wind instruments.
Quote from: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 10:42:37 AM
Va. You?
I'm not sure if you're in the market for sheet music, but there is this huge sheet music store going out of business in Silver Spring, MD. Lots of scores available for cheap. I even saw an oversized Xenakis score ("Eonta", I think) crammed in with the miniature score section. They'll be closed for good on June 28th, I think.
The more I hear SWI, the more I think of Rite -- especially the introduction (to Rite) with all of the wind instruments.
Charm City
Who/Where in Silver Spring? I go to CD Depot and Atomic Music... the Depot has a large selection of Used Classical
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 11:07:59 AM
Charm City
Who/Where in Silver Spring? I go to CD Depot and Atomic Music... the Depot has a large selection of Used Classical
Dale Music. It's on Georgia Avenue just after the Rt.29/Colesville Road crossing (coming from the north/Beltway exit). Neat store. I'm not sure how many recordings they have, but they have a ton of sheet music. There's still an extra copy of SWI, btw :).
They also had the Stravinsky wind/PC.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
SWI is just a jolly little 8mins., nothing more. But apparently I'm missing something- isn't it supposed to be some kind of Dada Masterpiece? Or is that the 'Octet'? SWI sounds like marionette music to me.
Jolly? The word that comes to mind for me is 'austere.'
On
Firebird, it's well-done, for sure, but for me the Stravinsky that matters begins with
Petrouchka.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2014, 07:30:20 AM
Another Firebird non-lover here. Overexposure to it (recordings, radio, live concerts) has made me immune to its, admittedly, attractive qualities. My local band (the Rheinland-Pfalz) has once again programmed it for the upcoming season...sigh. It comes up so often it's like conductors don't realize Stravinsky composed other works.
Sarge
Dreadfully unimaginative programming.
Quote from: Ken B on May 25, 2014, 08:01:01 AM
It has always been his most popular work. It made him tons of money ...
Not the original ballet, nor the first couple of suites (which are most frequently programmed)...those were a Russian imprint which fell out of copyright in the West. He did up a new suite after settling in Hollywood; Boosey may still own the rights to that.
In short, I'd be surprised if
Stravinsky benefited from
L'oiseau de feu to anything like the degree which its popularity ought to have earned him.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 25, 2014, 05:43:01 PM
[...] Boosey may still own the rights to that. [...]
Ugh. Sigh. Not necessarily for Firebird, but for all of the other wonderful music they smother.
I feel an intense desire to go on a Stravinsky binge. I will, once I get home. Karl and anyone else, feel free to join! 8)
I'm in! :)
Good idea, day off today, I'll spin this one (I do need to get more into Stravinsky)...
[asin]B0001XLW62[/asin]
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 03, 2014, 08:28:09 AM
Good idea, day off today, I'll spin this one (I do need to get more into Stravinsky)...
[asin]B0001XLW62[/asin]
Great start!
Orpheus and
Jeu de Cartes are both in my personal 'Top 10 Stravinsky'. :)
I'm starting with Perséphone, just because it's a work I've not listened to often enough 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 08:58:00 AM
I'm starting with Perséphone, just because it's a work I've not listened to often enough 8)
This is true for me also. I remember the last time I listened to this work, it made a more favourable impression than it had in the past.
Still crazy about the Symphony in Three Movements, after all these years . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
Still crazy about the Symphony in Three Movements, after all these years . . . .
It's a beaut! :)
Muti 'Le Sacre'? >:D
Quote from: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 10:49:33 AM
Muti 'Le Sacre'? >:D
Lance - 'Le Sac du Printemps' ;D
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 03, 2014, 08:31:04 AM
Great start! Orpheus and Jeu de Cartes are both in my personal 'Top 10 Stravinsky'. :)
Moi aussi. Especially Cartes.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
Still crazy about the Symphony in Three Movements, after all these years . . . .
It's a great piece. I always look forward to a new recording of that. So how do you feel about his
best symphony, C?
Listening to these two colourful works!
The Song of the Nightingale
Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Danses Concertantes
Columbia Chamber Orchestra
Robert Craft
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
More Stravinsky, for this Saturday morning!
Symphony in Three Movements
Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
CBC Symphony Orchestra
Stravinsky, conducting
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 05, 2014, 05:45:48 AM
More Stravinsky, for this Saturday morning!
Symphony in Three Movements
Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
CBC Symphony Orchestra
Stravinsky, conducting
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
G'day,
Ray!
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2014, 06:41:51 AM
G'day, Ray!
Good morning,
Karl! :)
Now I'm on to
Orpheus, from the same box. 8)
I've concluded my Stravinsky binge over the last few days, and am now satisfied and sated! 8)
Listened to 23 straight Stravinsky compositions (all from the Stravinsky Sony Box):
Persephone
Song of The Nightingale symphonic poem
Danses Concertantes
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
Orpheus
Apollon Musagete
Scenes de Ballet
Bluebird - Pas de Deux
The Fairy's Kiss
Scherzo a la Russe & Fireworks
Scherzo Fantastique
Petrushka - Suite
Pulcinella - Suite
Firebird - Suite
The Rite of Spring
Violin Concerto in D
Dumbarton Oaks Chamber Concerto
Octet for Wind Instruments
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Duo Concertante for Violin and Piano
Symphony in E flat, Op. 1
:)
Sweet!
Enormously pleased that I rustled up the Craft MusicMasters Vol. IV disc, not only because I already had the Apollo and Orpheus which share the Naxos reissue with Agon (Craft's recording of which I was keen to hear), but especially for (par exemple two miniatures which probably dropped off the Naxos re-packaging regimen: the arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner for men's choir (in up to 6 parts) is exquisite!
This recording of Agon is tastier even than I had anticipated. Part of that is just that Rolf Schulte rocks the violin solo writing. But overall, Craft emphasizes the energetic character of (for instance) the re-interpreted antique dances . . . I don't recall hearing the Gaillarde anywhere near as effervescent as here.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J8J8G8ZEL.jpg)
Per
this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23541.msg829560.html#msg829560) . . . I took a quick look in vol. 2 of the Walsh biography:
Quote from: Stephen WalshIn his by now chronic cynicism about the real feelings of the European avant-garde toward his music, Stravinsky seems to have been happy to keep his personal friendship with Boulez separate from the more complex question of professional loyalty. "What a joy to see you in Copenhagen," he told him when he next wrote; and to Souvtchinsky he sighed: "Poor Boulez, it's not very jolly to be surrounded by such people." But the indulgent words concealed a question mark, since Stravinsky went on to talk about Stockhausen in a tone of resigned reproach that implicitly included Boulez.
He knows me so little, and my music interests him so little. He belongs naturally to a generation which needs biologically to be hostile to me. What to do? I can't change and won't think or speak ill of him for it, but will simply regret that it's so and that it's useless to expect any reciprocity on his part.
It was left to Souvtchinsky to interpret this lament in his own way. "Believe me," he wrote, "Stockhausen truly values and understands you, but he's a bit gauche, in a way rather uncouth...."
from
Stravinsky, The Second Exile: France and America, 1934-1971, pp.404-405
Quote from: karlhenning on September 10, 2014, 10:31:59 AM
Per this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23541.msg829560.html#msg829560) . . . I took a quick look in vol. 2 of the Walsh biography:
from Stravinsky, The Second Exile: France and America, 1934-1971, pp.404-405
I found this
QuoteI was talking to KS. He's so tall, schwing! I bet he's hung like a horse. Anyway he was helping me with Agon, but wants to keep it a secret. He's just so ... Superb
Don't know it means anything but I thought I'd pass it along.
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 06, 2014, 07:39:36 AM
I've concluded my Stravinsky binge over the last few days, and am now satisfied and sated! 8)
Listened to 23 straight Stravinsky compositions (all from the Stravinsky Sony Box):
Persephone
Song of The Nightingale symphonic poem
Danses Concertantes
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
Orpheus
Apollon Musagete
Scenes de Ballet
Bluebird - Pas de Deux
The Fairy's Kiss
Scherzo a la Russe & Fireworks
Scherzo Fantastique
Petrushka - Suite
Pulcinella - Suite
Firebird - Suite
The Rite of Spring
Violin Concerto in D
Dumbarton Oaks Chamber Concerto
Octet for Wind Instruments
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Duo Concertante for Violin and Piano
Symphony in E flat, Op. 1
:)
No Jeu de Cartes?
>:D
Quote from: Ken B on September 10, 2014, 01:26:19 PM
No Jeu de Cartes?
>:D
I listen to it so often,
Ken. I was trying to listen to at least some of the works that I don't listen as often.
Jeu de Cartes is definitely a favourite. :)
Here's an interesting excerpt from the Walsh book:
Quote from: Stephen WalshIn Balanchine's original scheme, Stravinsky had evidently reached the point at which "the dances which began quite simply in the sixteenth century took fire in the twentieth and exploded." For him it was the critical moment in the whole work [Agon], the moment at which his new, esoteric compositional technique had to be invested with a vibrant physicality alien to the music of its inventors and only found spasmodically, if at all, in a handful of works by younger composers–Boulez's Structures, Stockhausen's Kontra-Punkte–that he had heard but not studied.
(from
Stravinsky, The Second Exile: France and America, 1934-1971, pp.342
Now, considering the recent discussion mulling the question of
Stockhausen supposedly influencing
Igor Fyodorich. This paragraph is about
Agon, and mentions
Stockhausen; for the lazy reader, that will "mean" influence! In fact, it is simply part of the narrative of
Stravinsky's reconciling his highly individual application of serial technique (which was not a specific influence of either
Boulez or
Stockhausen, but goes back to
Robert Craft "introducing"
Igor Fyodorovich to the music of
Webern), with the "vibrant physicality" which was always one of the hallmarks of
Stravinsky's work.
Specifically, this paragraph indicates, if anything,
Boulez and
Stockhausen as "negative exemplars," for the physicality is found (according to the text) only "spasmodically, if at all" in these works which
Stravinsky was known to have heard.
Did Stockhausen, Suuuuper Geenius, influence Stravinsky? If there is evidence, it has not yet surfaced . . . .
Quote from: Stephen Walsh
. . . He had suffered a serious stroke, and a second one, still more severe, was possible and might be fatal. Yet even now, incredibly, he did not go to hospital. Instead he spent a day with Karl Amadeus Hartmann, the director of the Musica Viva series in Munich, and enjoyed a high-protein dinner cooked specially for him by the chef of the Hotel Vier Jahreszeiten. His Munich concert on the 10th was cancelled. But only when Maurice Gilbert arrived from Geneva and talked to the local specialist was Stravinsky finally persuaded to abandon his Swiss tour and, on that same 10 October, enter the Red Cross Hospital in Munich. There he stayed for more than five weeks, forced into an unwilling quiescence while the world shook at events in Budapest, Warsaw, and Suez. Vera stayed with him, sustained by tranquillizers, terrified of the future, desperate to go home. Letters flowed in from friends urging him to rest, to give up conducting, to save himself for composition. Eugene Berman wrote to Craft, insisting that he, or Vera, or even Theodore, should act. The newspapers hovered. After a month, the patient received a visit from the holy trinity of the avant-garde–Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono–as if they hoped for a "Weihekuss," a consecrating kiss, like Beethoven's on the child Liszt.
(from
Stravinsky, The Second Exile: France and America, 1934-1971, p.348
Why is the 1919 Les Noces incomplete? Why didn't he finish the transcription? I notice that it has been completed by someone quite recently - there's a performance on vimeo.
Is it true that Les Noces was originally a 3 act opera? That's something that Boulez seems to suggest in a concert talk he gave in the 1981 premiere of the 1919 version in Paris. Has anyone performed the opera?
In case anyone's wondering what on earth I'm going on about, the 1919 Les Noces is a version for pianola and cimbalom.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2014, 10:19:02 PM
Why is the 1919 Les Noces incomplete? Why didn't he finish the transcription?
I want to go back to my sources . . . I want to say that this was not a
transcription, but that the composer was still in the process of searching for quite the scoring he wanted.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2014, 05:03:52 AM
I want to go back to my sources . . . I want to say that this was not a transcription, but that the composer was still in the process of searching for quite the scoring he wanted.
Thanks. I'd be interested to hear anything interesting you find. I used the word transcription because Boulez used it in the 1981 pre concert talk - I don't know if transcription has nuances in French which are different than in English - probably.
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:
I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".
Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.
Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?
Quote from: Linus on February 06, 2015, 02:09:53 AM
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:
I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".
Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.
Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?
Give a quick listen to his
Scherzo a la Russe (very short -- c.a. 4 minutes). Hard not to crack a smile while listening to it. The ending is a hoot! Here's my favorite recording of the piece:
https://www.youtube.com/v/6z_y8_8oDrY
If you like that, then I bet you'd like his
Violin Concerto, too -- particularly the first movement ('toccata').
My favorite Stravinsky is
Agon. It might be worth a listen for you, too, though I'd be surprised if you liked it immediately based off of your comment above (BTW, I didn't like it until I saw the fun in it).
http://vimeo.com/58815780
The 1919 completion of Les Noces was done by Theo Verbey with the approval of Stravinsky's estate (he has also completed the string orchestra version of Berg's Lyric Suite, also with similar blessing). I quite like this version and I wish it would be recorded on a commercial CD soon.
Quote from: Linus on February 06, 2015, 02:09:53 AM
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:
I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".
Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.
Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?
maybe it's the ritualistic aspects that mitigate against traditional tension-release?
Quote from: EigenUser on February 06, 2015, 05:45:29 AM
Give a quick listen to his Scherzo a la Russe (very short -- c.a. 4 minutes). Hard not to crack a smile while listening to it. The ending is a hoot! Here's my favorite recording of the piece:
If you like that, then I bet you'd like his Violin Concerto, too -- particularly the first movement ('toccata').
My favorite Stravinsky is Agon. It might be worth a listen for you, too, though I'd be surprised if you liked it immediately based off of your comment above (BTW, I didn't like it until I saw the fun in it).
Thanks for your input, but I was hoping to find a piece of his that goes from typical Stravinsky tension to a conclusion, not a bright-sounding piece that seems to already have found "redemption" on the first note (which is the case with the scherzo and the VC toccata, IMHO). :) (
Agon is a bit too serial for me to handle at the moment.)
Quote from: snyprrr on February 06, 2015, 08:46:19 AM
maybe it's the ritualistic aspects that mitigate against traditional tension-release?
Yes, that seems quite plausible, cool observation. I wonder, was he the first composer to do that?
Quote from: Linus on February 07, 2015, 05:15:19 AM
Thanks for your input, but I was hoping to find a piece of his that goes from typical Stravinsky tension to a conclusion, not a bright-sounding piece that seems to already have found "redemption" on the first note.
The Firebird.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 11, 2014, 06:18:29 AM
Here's an interesting excerpt from the Walsh book:
(from Stravinsky, The Second Exile: France and America, 1934-1971, pp.342
Now, considering the recent discussion mulling the question of Stockhausen supposedly influencing Igor Fyodorich. This paragraph is about Agon, and mentions Stockhausen; for the lazy reader, that will "mean" influence! In fact, it is simply part of the narrative of Stravinsky's reconciling his highly individual application of serial technique (which was not a specific influence of either Boulez or Stockhausen, but goes back to Robert Craft "introducing" Igor Fyodorovich to the music of Webern), with the "vibrant physicality" which was always one of the hallmarks of Stravinsky's work.
Specifically, this paragraph indicates, if anything, Boulez and Stockhausen as "negative exemplars," for the physicality is found (according to the text) only "spasmodically, if at all" in these works which Stravinsky was known to have heard.
Did Stockhausen, Suuuuper Geenius, influence Stravinsky? If there is evidence, it has not yet surfaced . . . .
Just for the case that months after the mentioned discussion there is still some interest. Lately I accidentally refound the source on which my statement that Stockhausen was an influence on Stravinsky's masterpiece "Agon" was based.
Quote
"It really is in groups," said Stravinsky approvingly of Stockhausen's Gruppen for three orchestras (Memories 118-20 [UK], 112-14 [US]). Along with the wind quintet Zeitmasse, it is a score from which he took a great many ideas in orchestration and form. During the fifties the admiration was mutual: Stockhausen and Boulez both adopted the cimbalom, and Stravinsky's use of the piano in Agon as a bold melody sonority rather than a harmony instrument is one of several features of Gruppen he expressly admires.
(from
Experiencing Stravinsky: A Listener's Companion,Robin Maconie, p.205)
Quote from: Linus on February 07, 2015, 05:15:19 AM
Thanks for your input, but I was hoping to find a piece of his that goes from typical Stravinsky tension to a conclusion, not a bright-sounding piece that seems to already have found "redemption" on the first note (which is the case with the scherzo and the VC toccata, IMHO). :) (Agon is a bit too serial for me to handle at the moment.)
Yes, that seems quite plausible, cool observation. I wonder, was he the first composer to do that?
Oh. In that case, I would recommend
Agon even more, except you say it is too serial (my problem with it at first, too).
Not to harp on
Agon, but the way I ended up looking at it was as a 'safe' journey through the often-scary world of serialism. It starts off fairly bright, goes into an austere "Webern Symphony mode", but ends even brighter than it started. Kind of like a haunted house ride at an amusement park. It might be scary at times, but nothing can hurt you :D.
Quote from: North Star on February 07, 2015, 05:19:13 AM
The Firebird.
While I don't really like it, this is definitely a good recommendation based off of what you are looking for.
Quote from: Linus on February 06, 2015, 02:09:53 AM
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:
I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".
Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.
Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?
Dumbarton Oaks
Ebony Concerto
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes
Not sure if Firebird already shows what you mean with "Stravinsky-typical tensions". Maybe Petrushka will be a better option.
I support the recs for the symphony in C and the symphony in 3 movements, maybe also the symphony of Psalms but I remember that I was rather puzzled at my first encounter with the latter piece, it's certainly not your typical "praise the lord with harps and cymbals" mood.
Speaking of Petrushka, I gave this a first listen last night. I am not familiar enough with the concertante works to give a valid opinion, but Petrushka was possibly the best performance of that work I have heard to date.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/819-17y3muL._SX522_.jpg)
The three extraits for piano are a quite different thing from the original whole ballet, though... Both are easy to like, I think, compared with a lot of other Stravinsky.
Quote from: EigenUser on February 07, 2015, 05:46:36 AM
Oh. In that case, I would recommend Agon even more, except you say it is too serial (my problem with it at first, too).
Not to harp on Agon, but the way I ended up looking at it was as a 'safe' journey through the often-scary world of serialism. It starts off fairly bright, goes into an austere "Webern Symphony mode", but ends even brighter than it started. Kind of like a haunted house ride at an amusement park. It might be scary at times, but nothing can hurt you :D.
Hehe, I'll try to keep that in mind during the journey. :)
Quote from: North Star on February 07, 2015, 05:19:13 AM
The Firebird.
Quote from: EigenUser on February 07, 2015, 05:46:36 AM
While I don't really like it, this is definitely a good recommendation based off of what you are looking for.
Yes, I somehow forgot about
The Firebird! In theory, it really does have that tension-release scheme. Except, just like you, EigenUser, I would have to admit that I don't really like it either. It's like "Stravinsky lite". :-\
Quote from: Ken B on February 07, 2015, 05:59:45 AM
Dumbarton Oaks
Ebony Concerto
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes
Thanks, I'll check these out. Any superior recordings?
Basically, I suppose I'm asking for something impossible: a Stravinsky that explores Hell, then magically turns into Mozart and resolves the argument into perfect consonant harmony. That would have been fantastic. I'm not expecting that, though. ;)
That's part of my trouble knowing how to help you, Linus: I don't think of Igor Fyodorovich as exploring Hell! :)
Quote from: karlhenning on February 08, 2015, 07:54:15 AM
That's part of my trouble knowing how to help you, Linus: I don't think of Igor Fyodorovich as exploring Hell! :)
Agreed, and not really even in
Danse infernale.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 08, 2015, 07:54:15 AM
That's part of my trouble knowing how to help you, Linus: I don't think of Igor Fyodorovich as exploring Hell! :)
Ah, that was perhaps a bad use of metaphor. :)
I guess the best way I can describe the overall mood of his music would yet again be "tense".
Quote from: James on February 07, 2015, 09:42:03 AM
I haven't heard this .. but you should check Pollini's classic recording of it on DG.
One of the greatest recordings in all of classical music that I have ever heard.
I have that, in the Pollini 20th Century box. But the Chandos recording is of the full ballet. Bavouzet is present only for the other three works.
Quote from: Linus on February 08, 2015, 03:22:00 AM
Thanks, I'll check these out. Any superior recordings?
Basically, I suppose I'm asking for something impossible: a Stravinsky that explores Hell, then magically turns into Mozart and resolves the argument into perfect consonant harmony. That would have been fantastic. I'm not expecting that, though. ;)
I think what you're really looking for is Mahler.
Or even (sorry Igor :-X) Schoenberg (pre-12-tone stuff). Have you heard the
Chamber Symphony No. 1?
yes, it seems you are looking for something with an aesthetic (basically the romantic per aspera ad astra) that is rather foreign to Stravinsky.
Well, I'm not really looking for anyone else; I want Stravinsky, because no one writes music quite the way he does, he can't just be replaced. :) But, yes, I would have liked it if he was more of a romantic.
Quote from: Linus on February 08, 2015, 03:22:00 AM
Basically, I suppose I'm asking for something impossible: a Stravinsky that explores Hell, then magically turns into Mozart and resolves the argument into perfect consonant harmony. That would have been fantastic. I'm not expecting that, though. ;)
Stravinsky really wasn't a happy endings kinda guy, but he does sometimes end on a note that's at least
hopeful if not actually optimistic. Try
Orpheus for example; the Apothéose is one of the most moving moments in Stravinsky, or music generally. Symphonies of Wind Instruments is another one to try. (Also Symphony in C, one of his darkest and most personal compositions in spite of its neoclassical trappings... but then the end is
very ambiguous at best)
For recordings? Naxos series feat. Craft is probably the cheapest and almost certainly the best. Unless it's Rite of Spring or something, start with Craft.
Quote from: amw on February 11, 2015, 12:02:20 AM
Stravinsky really wasn't a happy endings kinda guy, but he does sometimes end on a note that's at least hopeful if not actually optimistic. Try Orpheus for example; the Apothéose is one of the most moving moments in Stravinsky, or music generally. Symphonies of Wind Instruments is another one to try. (Also Symphony in C, one of his darkest and most personal compositions in spite of its neoclassical trappings... but then the end is very ambiguous at best)
For recordings? Naxos series feat. Craft is probably the cheapest and almost certainly the best. Unless it's Rite of Spring or something, start with Craft.
Since Stravinsky was a modernist who grew to despise the "immediate past," only The Firebird has a Hollywood ending after a number of dark moments. You're right about
Symphonies: the ending is beautiful. It is one of Stravinsky's "modular works." There is no development in the traditional sense; rather he employs several sections that are only partially related to one another and creates a kind of organization based on discontinuity. He is the master of this form. The succesion of short musical gestures generates excitement due to the work interupting itself. In
Symphonies, the last section is diatonic in nature and the warm chorale make for great closure. Petrushka, Les Noces, Agon are other examples of this formal structure.
Besides Firebird, the other "Hell and back" work that has a great ending is
Symphony of Psalms . Not that it ever gets very dissonant. Stravinsky's works are unified in terms of musical syntax, as are most composers when writing absolute music. But Linus is operating on the premise that dissonance is unattractive music and consonance is beauty. I can't concure with this understanding, though film scoring seems to assign those values to each cue.
Three of my favorite neoclassical works of Stravinsky are
Apollo,
Orpheus and
Persephone; these are all greek-based and have wonderful endings. You're right about
Orpheus, it's a moving and exciting work.
Quote from: Rons_talking on February 11, 2015, 03:55:03 AM
But Linus is operating on the premise that dissonance is unattractive music and consonance is beauty.
I don't think I do. In this case I'm just interested in consonance as a means for release of tension.
Actually, I find dissonance very attractive indeed; most of my favourite playlists would be unbearable to me otherwise. ;)
Quote from: Linus on February 11, 2015, 04:20:27 AM
I don't think I do. In this case I'm just interested in consonance as a means for release of tension.
Actually, I find dissonance very attractive indeed; most of my favourite playlists would be unbearable to me otherwise. ;)
I stand corrected. Stravinsky lijkes to manipulate the rhythm to keep even the most simple materials unpredictable. So tension is hard to avoid ::). But some of the works cited might be the solution to your query.
Rhythmic genius. 'Tis true.
To paraphrase Grisey: Stravinsky sets down a rhythm, and you think it'll change, but it doesn't. Then when you think it won't change, it does.
Personal experience: I used to not like Stravinsky, but when I went through a period of attempting to compose myself, suddenly the music clicked with me in a big way. And in almost everything I wrote, I unconsciously tried to copy that Stravinskian sense of keeping you off-base rhythmically (except when I wrote in triple time and sounded like bad Webern).
Most interesting, and thanks for sharing.
Sometimes, I feel that if he had written nothing more than the Symphonies d'instruments à vent, that work alone had made him immortal.
Yes!
Quote from: sanantonio on March 26, 2015, 10:09:43 AM
Have you seen the short film about the work?
[asin]B000AMMSQ2[/asin]
Highly recommended.
Yeah, I like this documentary and the one on Schoenberg was quite good as well.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 27, 2015, 06:10:20 AM
Yeah, I like this documentary and the one on Schoenberg was quite good as well.
I just ordered the DVD. I might even be able to get my wife to watch!
I must check out that DVD of The Final Chorale. Othe productions in that same series have been very interesting.
For those who admire the magnificenr Symphonies of wind instruments, the original, partial version for piano is well worth exploring as well. It can be heard on this CD, along with other great music by or in hommage to Debussy:
[asin]B0062QFYY8[/asin]
Quote from: Rons_talking on March 29, 2015, 09:53:51 PM
I just ordered the DVD. I might even be able to get my wife to watch!
Very cool. 8) I remember buying this DVD super-cheap for $7.
I was suggested to listen to this work:
https://www.youtube.com/v/4MIt-GrZ5F4
One of the first Stravinsky's compositions, much influenced by Impressionism, Debussy and Tchaikovsky, but still prefiguring some melodic softness and sharp power of evocation of the Firebird. Such a very charming piece, I liked its fairy and persuasive harmonies, its colour, timbric elegance and poetical beauty; but I was very suprised to discover that Stravinsky quoted Wagner's Good Friday Music in the adagio section, as a friend of mine made me notice. :)
Has anybody here read Stephen Walsh's two part biography of Stravinsky? Would you recommend them?
[asin] 0679414843[/asin]
[asin] 0375407529[/asin]
I have, and I recommend them highly.
Hmm, Stravinsky is a much more interesting composer than I had ever imagined. I think I was Le "sacrified" at an early age and steered clear... :P So much to catch up on!
I am really enjoying Boulez's performances!
[asin] B00005M9HW[/asin]
The enthusiasm will seize you!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jDfWjMWiL.jpg)
Just saw a used copy of this dirt cheap on Amazon and snatched it up. Greatly looking forward to it.
Quote from: NJ Joe on April 03, 2015, 04:46:30 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jDfWjMWiL.jpg)
Just saw a used copy of this dirt cheap on Amazon and snatched it up. Greatly looking forward to it.
Oh, this is quite good indeed. I love Boulez's earlier Stravinsky performances.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2015, 02:02:22 PM
I have, and I recommend them highly.
Seconded by me as well.
I've always been dissatisfied with PB's Chicago remake, which I seem to find somewhat lacking in atmosphere. I usually like Boulez's Stravinsky, but in my opinion that one was kind of a misstep.
Quote from: Moonfish on April 03, 2015, 02:26:06 PM
Hmm, Stravinsky is a much more interesting composer than I had ever imagined. I think I was Le "sacrified" at an early age and steered clear... :P So much to catch up on!
I am really enjoying Boulez's performances!
[asin] B00005M9HW[/asin]
He certainly is an interesting composer no question about it. I love his music. Those first ballets:
The Firebird,
Petrouchka, and
Le sacre du printemps kind of helped lay the foundation for his early reputation, but then suddenly he does a 360 and starts writing in a Neoclassical idiom and then later his own take on Serialism. No matter how many 360s he did, he always remained himself with a unique musical persona and bless him for it.
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on April 04, 2015, 04:00:41 AM
I've always been dissatisfied with PB's Chicago remake, which I seem to find somewhat lacking in atmosphere. I usually like Boulez's Stravinsky, but in my opinion that one was kind of a misstep.
Yes, that one has always been kind of hit or miss for me. I
want to like it and sometimes I really do, but other times I'll come away with mixed feelings.
I find this one to be consistently enjoyable:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5180QFZEPGL.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2015, 06:43:38 AM
He certainly is an interesting composer no question about it. I love his music. Those first ballets: The Firebird, Petrouchka, and Le sacre du printemps kind of helped lay the foundation for his early reputation, but then suddenly he does a 360 and starts writing in a Neoclassical idiom and then later his own take on Serialism. No matter how many 360s he did, he always remained himself with a unique musical persona and bless him for it.
Definitely! I think I have had some preconceived notions about Stravinsky's music, but I am now discovering a multifaceted array of works. Very unique, like you so aptly stated in your response. I have this temptation to jump into one of the mega rite of spring sets, but perhaps I would never be able to recover after such a intensive session? :laugh:
(http://assets1.classicfm.com/2013/41/composer-insults-stravinsky-1381921438-view-0.jpg)
Quote from: The new erato on April 03, 2015, 11:28:31 PM
Seconded by me as well.
Ok! Now I have to read them! 0:) ;)
Besides, it seems like he lived an interesting life!
Stravinsky:
L'Oiseau de feu
Feu d'artifice
Quatre Etudes pour orchestre
Chicago SO/Boulez
A fantastic L'Oiseau de feu!!! I understand that Boulez here performed the longer original 1910 version (45 rather than 30 min). I am curious about his earlier recording with NYP (1975). How does it compare? In this recording Boulez weaves a dreamscape that makes me think about Debussy, hazy forests with drifting fog and countless creatures moving about in an unfolding fairytale drama. A keeper! What is your own favored rendition of L'Oiseau de feu
[asin] B000001GJD[/asin]
Quote from: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 10:20:15 AM
Definitely! I think I have had some preconceived notions about Stravinsky's music, but I am now discovering a multifaceted array of works. Very unique, like you so aptly stated in your response. I have this temptation to jump into one of the mega rite of spring sets, but perhaps I would never be able to recover after such a intensive session? :laugh:
(http://assets1.classicfm.com/2013/41/composer-insults-stravinsky-1381921438-view-0.jpg)
Have you given any of his symphonies a listen yet, Peter? All of them are great works. I also recommend
Dumbarton Oaks which is a work that never fails to put a smile on my face.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2015, 06:21:54 PM
Have you given any of his symphonies a listen yet, Peter? All of them are great works. I also recommend Dumbarton Oaks which is a work that never fails to put a smile on my face.
That's my favorite. Also Jeu de Cartes. Symphony in C. Look for the Karajan recording of that!
Igor has been, after Bach and Mozart, my favourite composer over the years (decades).
*grumble grumble* Ravel wrote some good music.
Quote from: Ken B on April 04, 2015, 07:13:22 PM
That's my favorite. Also Jeu de Cartes. Symphony in C. Look for the Karajan recording of that!
Igor has been, after Bach and Mozart, my favourite composer over the years (decades).
*grumble grumble* Ravel wrote some good music.
Honestly, I haven't heard a work by Stravinsky that I didn't at the
very least enjoy. Don't think I've heard HvK in
Symphony in C. I'll have to try it out at some point. A work I feel is rather neglected is
The Fairy's Kiss (Le baiser de la fée). It's a rather oddly structured work, but I don't mean this as a negative of course. There seems to always be a logic and purpose in Stravinsky's music, which I admire greatly.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2015, 06:21:54 PM
I also recommend Dumbarton Oaks which is a work that never fails to put a smile on my face.
Quote from: Ken B on April 04, 2015, 07:13:22 PM
That's my favorite. Also Jeu de Cartes. Symphony in C. Look for the Karajan recording of that!
What they said. Same for The Fairy's Kiss.
I haven't heard HvK in Symphony in C, either.
I have Dutoit for Dumbarton Oaks, Chailly for Jeu de Cartes, and Neeme Jarvi for The Fairy's Kiss.
Watched The Final Chorale again last night. Wonderful that they perform that discarded sketch with the two string instruments!
[asin]B000AMMSQ2[/asin]
Quote from: sanantonio on April 27, 2015, 06:38:27 AM
More and more it is the late works that I listen to the most. I recently watched a performance of Requiem Canticles on one of the BPO digital concerts and found the work very engaging.
Aye.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 27, 2015, 06:44:48 AM
Aye.
No crypto-voting! March back over there and show James!
:laugh:
Quote from: sanantonio on April 27, 2015, 06:38:27 AM
More and more it is the late works that I listen to the most. I recently watched a performance of Requiem Canticles on one of the BPO digital concerts and found the work very engaging.
I've always wondered why Boulez paid so little attention to Stravinsky's late period. I mean, as a young man he notoriously heckled performances of Igor's neoclassical pieces, but he seemed to have no time for the works written once he'd adopted a "historically relevant" idiom. I know there is a recording of "A sermon, a narrative and a prayer" from the Domaine Musical days, but I would have expected Pierre to champion the twelve-tone Stravinsky more assiduously, especially since it is a part of his work that remains underappreciated. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could enlighten me as to the reasons behind this phenomenon.
Must reading : Igor's final interview, uncompleted, appropriately enough, in the NY Review of Books.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1971/jul/01/stravinsky-the-last-interview/
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on May 15, 2015, 08:14:00 AM
Must reading : Igor's final interview, uncompleted, appropriately enough, in the NY Review of Books.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1971/jul/01/stravinsky-the-last-interview/
Thanks for posting,
ZauberdrachenNr.7. Interesting. I thought the remark on
Pli selon pli was from an earlier occasion--and I recall reading in one of the conversation books that Igor Fyodorovich called the Boulez "a piece without balls", but can't for the life of me find that anywhere now :(. But as always, one gets to wonder how much of this is Stravinsky, how much is Robert Craft ???.
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on April 27, 2015, 03:39:52 PM
I've always wondered why Boulez paid so little attention to Stravinsky's late period. I mean, as a young man he notoriously heckled performances of Igor's neoclassical pieces, but he seemed to have no time for the works written once he'd adopted a "historically relevant" idiom. I know there is a recording of "A sermon, a narrative and a prayer" from the Domaine Musical days, but I would have expected Pierre to champion the twelve-tone Stravinsky more assiduously, especially since it is a part of his work that remains underappreciated. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could enlighten me as to the reasons behind this phenomenon.
I missed this post by
Abuelo Igor, but here is my (belated) two pennies worth.
The relationship between
Stravinsky and
Boulez must have been a very complex one, characterised I venture to say by mutual admiration and even love, but also mistrust, and a sort of father-son component (but also with Oedipical aspects ::)). For instance,
Jésus Aguila, in his book on the Domaine Musical, points out that the only composer Boulez called a "
genius" in any of the program notes he wrote for that concert series over so many years was Igor Fyodorovich. But, Boulez has never hidden his preference for the early, Russian Stravinsky (up to
Les Noces, I'd say) and his dislike for the neo-classical (with the exception perhaps of
Pulcinella, about which he wrote some very touching words in the program notes for a Stravinsky memorial concert when he was at the helm of the NYPO). This dislike for middle-period Stravinsky came to the forefront when the Boulez groupies (he himself apparently was not in the audience) booed the
Danses concertantes and the
Four Norwegian moods at a concert led by
Manuel Rosenthal in Paris right after WWII (well, I for one can't blame them for disliking the
Four Norwegian moods ;D ). But that is another story...
As far as the serial Stravinsky is concerned,
Stephen Walsh (in the second volume,
The Second Exile, of his wonderful biography of the Russian composer) sums it up quite cleverly: "
It is not the least irony of these late pieces that they were generally rejected by that avant-garde which they seemed primarily designed to please. Fortunately, this is not necessarily any reflection on their intrinsic quality". This statement puts Boulez within the
Zeitgeist of the post WW-II avant-garde, but perhaps since Boulez was an increasingly visible conductor from the 60s onwards, his relative neglect of late Stravinsky was more noticeable. Anyway, it is strking that in the index to the third volume of his writings (
Leçons de musique, i.e. the lectures over many years at the Collège de France)
not one single late Stravinsky work is mentioned.
As for Boulez's thoughts on late Stravinsky, Walsh quotes a letter to Lawrence Morton in which Boulez says that he finds the "
Variations for orchestra less aggravating than
Abraham and Isaac", the story of which he found "repellent". ;D. He then concludes that he "prefers Webern".
In concerts, Boulez did conduct or program late Stravinsky at the Domaine, sometimes triumphantly (the European première of
Agon under the composer), sometimes disastrously (the famous
Threni incident). There was also the
Canticum Sacrum and the
Vom Himmel hoch variations (under Robert Craft, I believe). Jésus Aguila interestingly points out that Boulez was attacked both by the traditionalists
and the avant-gardists for bringing Stravinsky to the Domaine. The conservative
Bernard Gavoty wrote something to the effect that Stravisnky was being used to lure audiences to the Domaine concerts under false pretenses, while the notoriously fundamentalist
Antoine Goléa on the other hand would say that offering these "bad" (late) Stravinsky works in the Salle Pleyel meant that better music could not be offered at the Salle Gaveau. >:(. It thus cannot be ruled out that some musical
Realpolitik had an influence in Boulez's attitude. Yet, even after the
Threni fiasco, in his 80th birthday tribute to Stravinsky in 1961--one year early ::)--, Boulez conducted (along with earlier music) the
Three Songs from Shakespeare and
In memoriam Dylan Thomas.
One work Boulez has conducted a couple of times at least (and as late as in 1996 with the LAPO, at the Ojai Festival IIRC) is
Agon (but, alas, he's never recorded it).
Finally, as far as recordings are concerned, we have the late songs on DG,
A Sermon, a narrative and a prayer live from the Théatre des Champs-Elysées on the defunct Montaigne label,
The Flood (in German! :( ) on a Col Legno issue from Munich (Musica Viva series) and then, on a long OOP Stradivarius CD, the "repellent" ;)
Abraham and Isaac (with
Scipio Colombo, a well known Scarpia in his day) and the
Elegy for J.F.K. with
Cathy Berberian, live from Rome in 1965. That's all there is, AFAIK.
(https://www.melomania.com/var/images/disques/biggest/532054.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/046/MI0001046109.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.col-legno.com/pics_db/20084_1_boulez_mv4.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/762/MI0003762318.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
EDIT: Since writing this, I've found out that Boulez
did conduct
Threni at least once (in Munich, in
Karl Amadeus Hartmann's Musica Viva series, in 1959).
SECOND EDIT: A recording of
Stravinsky's
Movements for Piano and Orchestra, with
Boulez conducting the EIC and no less a figure than
Sviatoslav Richter at the keyboard has just been released (live from 1985, I understand).
[asin]B07RGWTL38[/asin]
The disc also includes the
Capriccio with the same forces, plus
Debussy's
Fantaisie conducted by
Barenboim, plus solo pieces by Rachmaninov and Scriabin.
Un abrazo,
Quote from: ritter on May 15, 2015, 10:28:07 AM
As far as the serial Stravinsky is concerned, Stephen Walsh (in the second volume, The Second Exile, of his wonderful biography of the Russian composer) sums it up quite cleverly: "It is not the least irony of these late pieces that they were generally rejected by that avant-garde which they seemed primarily designed to please. Fortunately, this is not necessarily any reflection on their intrinsic quality". This statement puts Boulez within the Zeitgeist of the post WW-II avant-garde, but perhaps since Boulez was an increasingly visible conductor from the 60s onwards, his relative neglect of late Stravinsky was more noticeable. Anyway, it is strking that in the index to the third volume of his writings (Leçons de musique, i.e. the lectures over many years at the Collège de France) not one single late Stravinsky work is mentioned.
As for Boulez's thoughts on late Stravinsky, Walsh quotes a letter to Lawrence Morton in which Boulez says that he finds the "Variations for orchestra less aggravating than Abraham and Isaac", the story of which he found "repellent". ;D. He the concludes that he "prefers Webern".
"Their relationship was complicated by the fact that
Boulez tended to be an ass" 8)
Seriously, his quarrel with
Abraham and Isaac is that he finds the story (an icon of Western civilization) "repellant"; but presumably he never conducted a
Wagner opera whose story in any way offended his fastidious sensibilities. And what bad tone, "You know, I just prefer
Webern."
Sometimes I think the key to thinking the best of
Boulez, is to know as little as possible about him apart from the music itself . . . .
I see it's time to mention again this quotation from
Boulez I read in a comment of a review (http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R203R8J6GZMFD0/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00BLDHPZS&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=229816&store=music#wasThisHelpful) of the Boulez Complete Works box 8)
Quote from: A. Page[Boulez] came to give a composer's workshop at the Conservatoire I studied at. I was pleasantly surprised by him.
The first question to him (asked by me) was: " You have been quoted as saying that the idea of a great English composer is a genetic impossibility, are we wasting our time?"
Hilarity and applause ensued. " The only time you seem to be wasting" he replied " is in reading my old interviews."
Well . .. when they're posted afresh on GMG, you know . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2015, 11:13:32 AM
Well . .. when they're posted afresh on GMG, you know . . . .
It is too strong a temptation to resist, I know. :)
Quote from: sanantonio on May 15, 2015, 11:15:39 AM
It's not the lack of Boulez recordings of the late works that bothers me, lamentable as it is, but it's the general disregard for these works. There are not that many recordings of them, period.
That's true, but it's not that surprising as the record companies just want to record the early ballets
in perpetuum.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2015, 10:58:00 AM
"Their relationship was complicated by the fact that Boulez tended to be an ass" 8)
Thanks for this insightful and well-substantiated contribution to the topic,
Karl. A pleasure to read. 8)
Quote
Seriously, his quarrel with Abraham and Isaac is that he finds the story (an icon of Western civilization) "repellant"; but presumably he never conducted a Wagner opera whose story in any way offended his fastidious sensibilities. And what bad tone, "You know, I just prefer Webern."
Sometimes I think the key to thinking the best of Boulez, is to know as little as possible about him apart from the music itself . . . .
IIRC, Karl, you know the Walsh biography as well, or better than, I do. What Walsh quotes is a
private letter to Morton, not an article in
Die Reihe or an interview in the
Gramophone, or something like that. I suppose even you will admit that Boulez can have his likes and dislikes (musical, biblical, literary or even culinary, for that matter ;D ). And what Wagner has to do in all this, is beyond my comprehension...
But, rereading my long post above, I now realize anyone would be hard-pressed to find a conductor of his stature (bar Robert Craft, of course) who has conducted
more late Stravinsky than Boulez, despite the comparative neglect he's given to this part of Igor's oeuvre. Just take a look at the performance annals of the NYPO or the BBC Proms, for instance.
Cheers,
Quote from: ritter on May 15, 2015, 11:27:02 AM
Thanks for this insightful and well-substantiated contribution to the topic, Karl. A pleasure to read. 8)
Point noted :)
Here's the short paean to Stravinsky published by Boulez in the program to the NYPO's memorial concert in 1971 (with the
Requiem Canticles on the program):
(http://i62.tinypic.com/11ugj2u.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2c0vas.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/33yrfcw.jpg)
It should be noted that the erratum (stemming from the original mansucript ::) ) that describes
Pétrouchka as the piece with an "unusual mixture of vigor, aggressiveness, poetry...", when Boulez is clearly thinking of
Pulcinella, was corrected when this text was reproduced in the 2nd volume of
Points de repère (
Regards sur autrui).
Wow, ritter, thank you very much. That was a really interesting response to a post I had nearly forgotten.
It's just that I miss recordings of these late pieces, and, well I think that Boulez would have pulled them off really well. I kind of expected something along those lines, since Igor was not very "politically correct" in the Darmstadt years and maybe it was too late for him to be accepted into the fold of the avant-garde once again.
As to recordings of late-period Stravinsky, there's that Oliver Knussen disc on DG that no one has deigned to re-release...
I believe there is greatness in quite nearly every Stravinsky work. Though many here are tired of the overplaying of the early ballets (and I sometimes feel the same way) those works created a sound-world so beautiful, so striking, it's difficult to imagine modern music without them. While I've heard The Firebird countless times and rarely play it now, I'll never forget my first hearings of it. To me it was incredible. The use of the orchestra, the harmonies and rhythms...it seemed so monumental yet very human in its use of simple materials brought to life. I'm sure I'm not the first to say this: hearing Stravinskiy's early ballets was like seeing color TV for the first time. Many English majors discuss the great writers of literature and will often omit Shakespeare from the conversation: His greatness is so absolute some feel they can't say anything new. That's my view of the early Stravinsky ballets. Sure, I'd like to hear Agon, Apollo and Symphony of Psalms more often, but there are people out there hearing Petrushka and the Rite for the first time... I see there's no real point to what I'm saying here, but the new (relatively)must, unfortunately compete with the old.
I don't know why but writing this makes me crave Persephone :-X. hmmm...
It's nice that Boulez give a lot of Stravinsky's work his stamp of approval but his name comes up quite often on this thread. Maybe a little too much...but that's another series.
Quote from: Rons_talking on May 20, 2015, 04:16:47 AM
I believe there is greatness in quite nearly every Stravinsky work. Though many here are tired of the overplaying of the early ballets (and I sometimes feel the same way) those works created a sound-world so beautiful, so striking, it's difficult to imagine modern music without them. While I've heard The Firebird countless times and rarely play it now, I'll never forget my first hearings of it. To me it was incredible. The use of the orchestra, the harmonies and rhythms...it seemed so monumental yet very human in its use of simple materials brought to life. I'm sure I'm not the first to say this: hearing Stravinskiy's early ballets was like seeing color TV for the first time. Many English majors discuss the great writers of literature and will often omit Shakespeare from the conversation: His greatness is so absolute some feel they can't say anything new. That's my view of the early Stravinsky ballets. Sure, I'd like to hear Agon, Apollo and Symphony of Psalms more often, but there are people out there hearing Petrushka and the Rite for the first time... I see there's no real point to what I'm saying here, but the new (relatively) must, unfortunately compete with the old.
I don't know why but writing this makes me crave Persephone :-X. hmmm...
Hearty agreement; so much of his work is excellent, and practically every score has its distinct character (yet all bearing his fingerprint). It's a great problem to have, that there are some many fantastic scores, they vie one with another for our attention.
Quote from: James on August 22, 2015, 12:48:50 PM
Deutsche Grammophon 30 disc box coming ..
[asin]B013FFSG7U[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91Qhg7izt-L._SL1500_.jpg)
I wonder where DG is going to get hold of recordings of some works, for instance
Threni (if this is really going to be a "complete" edition). Can they have managed to get the rights to
Robert Craft's recording on Koch (which Naxos didn't bother to reissue, and is unobtainable)?
I haven't managed to find a contents listing for this anywhere :(
Quote from: ritter on August 22, 2015, 12:55:52 PM
I wonder where DG is going to get hold of recordings of some works, for instance Threni (if this really going to be a "complete" edition). Can they have managed to get the rights to Robert Craft's recording on Koch (which Naxos didn't bother to reissue, and is unobtainable)?
I haven't managed to find a contents listing for this anywhere :(
Looks like it:
http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000 (http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000)
QuoteThreni: id est Lamentationes Jeremiae prophetae
Julie Moffat, soprano / Jennifer Lane, mezzo-soprano / Martyn Hill, 1st tenor / Joseph Cornwell, 2nd tenor, David Wilson-Johnson, 1st bass / Martin Robson, 2nd bass
The Simon Joly Chorale / The Philharmonia / Robert Craft
Quote from: Kamisama on August 22, 2015, 01:53:50 PM
Looks like it:
http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000 (http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000)
Thanks,
Kamisana :) ! Despite the duplications (all the stuff conducted by Boulez and Abbado), this appears like a must for me (along with the "Complete Columbia Album Collection" that
Papy Oli posted here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11592.msg915914.html#new)). This is going to be a very Stravinskian autumn ;D ...
Huge news. (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/sep/06/igor-stravinsky-lost-work-emerges-after-100-years)This is the
Chant funèbre, Op.5 in memoriam
Rimsky-Korsakov, whereof the composer wrote (in
Chroniques de ma vie):
Quote from: Igor FyodorovichThe score of this work unfortunately disappeared in Russia during the Revolution. . . . I can no longer remember the music, but I can remember the idea at the root of its conception, which is that all the solo instruments of the orchestra filed past the tomb of the master in succession, each laying down its own melody as its wreath against a deep background of tremolo murmurings simulating the vibrations of bass voices singing in chorus.
Wonderful news indeed! :) :) :) :) :) :) Let's hope for a performance (and subsequent recording) soon. I would imagine Gergiev and his St.-Petersburg forces will want to exercise their droit de seigneur on this...
Quote from: ritter on September 06, 2015, 05:28:50 AM
Wonderful news indeed! :) :) :) :) :) :) Let's hope for a performance (and subsequent recording) soon. I would imagine Gergiev and his St.-Petersburg forces will want to exercise their droit de seigneur on this...
QuoteAn important early orchestral work by one of the greatest composers of the 20th century, thought for more than 100 years to have been irretrievably lost, has turned up at last in a pile of old manuscripts in a back room of the St Petersburg Conservatoire. Igor Stravinsky composed his Pogrebal'naya Pesnya in memory of his teacher, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, shortly after Rimsky's death in June 1908.
Not so wonderful for the compilers of that new Stravinsky Complete Edition box....
Quote from: Kamisama on September 06, 2015, 06:11:53 AM
Not so wonderful for the compilers of that new Stravinsky Complete Edition box....
:laugh:
North Star alerted us about the passing of
Robert Craft (whcih has really not been noticed much in the press :-[ ).
Quote from: North Star on November 14, 2015, 07:10:41 AM
Robert Lawson Craft passed away on Tuesday, November 10th, 2015. He is survived by his wife, Alva Craft and his son, Alexander Craft. He was a renowned author, esteemed orchestra conductor, protege of Igor Stravinsky and a resident of Gulf Stream, Florida.
Published in Sun-Sentinel from Nov. 13 to Nov. 14, 2015 (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sunsentinel/obituary.aspx?n=Robert-Lawson-Craft&pid=176477251)
Now the New York Times publishes an obituary: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/music/robert-craft-stravinsky-adviser-and-steward-dies-at-92.html?_r=0
Even if not devoid of controversy, Craft's work as writer and conductor deserves higher recognition than it receives these days IMHO. For those of us who love Stravinsky, the name Robert Craft has accompanied us for many years, and I for one will always remain grateful to him for some very interesting books and some wonderful recordings... Rest in peace.
Sony, are you there? It's time for a Craft box with his Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varèse et al...
Quote from: ritter on November 15, 2015, 01:48:02 AM
North Star alerted us about the passing of Robert Craft (whcih has really not been noticed much in the press :-[ ).
Now the New York Times publishes an obituary: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/music/robert-craft-stravinsky-adviser-and-steward-dies-at-92.html?_r=0
Even if not devoid of controversy, Craft's work as writer and conductor deserves higher recognition than it receives these days IMHO. For those of us who love Stravinsky, the name Robert Craft has accompanied us for many years, and I for one will always remain grateful to him for some very interesting books and some wonderful recordings... Rest in peace.
Sony, are you there? It's time for a Craft box with his Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varèse et al...
I merely posted that obit; the rumors of his death were reported well before.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on November 13, 2015, 08:02:15 AM
There have been some rumors that the great Robert Craft, Stravinsky's assistant for his last years in California, died a few days ago. Does anybody know?
Quote from: North Star on November 15, 2015, 02:00:44 AM
I merely posted that obit; the rumors of his death were reported well before.
Sorry, saw your post and not what came before it...credit to
(poco) Sforzando then ;)
Have a good day,
Karlo! Starting off with some
Les Six, I see :)
Quote from: ritter on November 15, 2015, 02:07:29 AM
Sorry, saw your post and not what came before it...credit to (poco) Sforzando then ;)
Have a good day, Karlo! Starting off with some Les Six, I see :)
I get my kicks with Les Six... G'day,
Rafael.
Besides his great work as a composer, I admire his conducting of his own pieces.
For example, this stereo 1960 recording:
(https://img.discogs.com/HfHtmU4LAojAzwWUJZwg3JjR5qU=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7786773-1448750268-6873.gif.jpg)
His own version of the Dumbarton Oaks Concerto is zippier than any other.
Thankfully, a re-issue took his pus off the original 1965 LP cover with something more aesthetically pleasing:
(https://img.discogs.com/YsiK6UpFCN13jql2_a15f2xKfds=/fit-in/567x561/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8171785-1456495390-7988.gif.jpg)
Another nice re-issue of the stereo 1958 recording by Stokowski & Berlin Philharmonic:
(http://s32.postimg.org/bsr409k0l/1958_Firebird_Petrushka_LP.jpg)
Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread:
Quote from: ritter on June 01, 2016, 02:19:58 PM
Back home in Madrid, first listen to this new acquisition:
[asin]B00GWS990Q[/asin]
This rendition of Threni: id est Lamentationes Jeremiae Prophetaeis turning out to be as good as I expected (or even better). Is this the recording this piece so badly needed? I'd say the answer is a resounding "yes!". It clearly is devilishly difficult to perfom, but the soloists, orchestra and, most particularly, the marvelous chorus deliver this with perfect pitch and rythmic accuracy, areas in which the two previous readily available recordings--Stravinsky on Columbia/Sony and Robert Craft on Koch (now in the big DG box) were wanting. The music flows very naturally and transaprently, and this is clearly Philippe Herreweghe's doing. The notion that this composition fits into a polyphonic choral traditon that stretches back to the renaissance is realized to the full, and there's nothing "arid" or "thorny" here. Highly recommended!!!! The other works on the disc will have to wait until tomorrow, as it's past midnight already...
Thanks, although my wallet does not thank you ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on June 01, 2016, 02:40:21 PM
Thanks, although my wallet does not thank you ;)
Just listening to Columbia 'Threni'. Oy, such dry and arid ... it was like swallowing a horse pill?! That Herreweghe looks delicious, no?$$$ :'(
Quote from: snyprrr on June 03, 2016, 08:22:14 PM
Just listening to Columbia 'Threni'. Oy, such dry and arid ...
I like dry and arid in late Stravinsky. This isn't music meant to seduce.
For Entertainment Purposes OnlyAlmost by accident, I ran across a review of my own at Amazon, of Vol. IX of the
Craft/
Stravinsky series:
QuoteThis entire disc is a pleasure to listen to, though admirers of the Firebird should be warned that the Variations in memoriam Aldous Huxley (the latest work on the disc) are stylistically a wide leap from the Dukas-flavored Feu d'artifice (the earliest). Everything is competently and musically presented; and the stylistic variety only underscores the tour-de-force. The Concerto in D for strings, particularly, used to be one of the odd works in the Stravinsky catalogue which left me inexplicably cold; Craft's recording here brought the piece to life for me.
I've always love the complete Firebird, I've never understood how the concert world could for so long have insisted on presenting this work only in its abbreviated Suite (though, to be fair, the Suite is for a slightly smaller orchestra; not many community orchestras, for example, can trot out two contrabassoons and three harps). Much of the ballet which did not "make the cut" of the Suite, is of a more Romantic vein more readily linked to Stravinsky's teacher, Rimsky-Korsakov; the whole work is nonetheless completely Stravinsky -- indeed, the work is much more closely motivic and 'cellular' than Rimsky-Korsakov, which is apparent on hearing the ballet in its entirety. This, apart from the plain logic that the complete ballet has an entire dramatic sequence which sets up the vigorous Danse infernale, which, separated from that context, comes out of nowhere in the Suite. Craft does a great job with the whole work; there was a time when I had never suspected Craft to be capable of making such a sumptuous sound with the Firebird.
The brief Canon, on the Russian folk tune quoted in the finale of the Firebird, is written in a bright brassy mode which recalls the Symphony in Three Movements. It makes a colorful little "encore" to follow the ballet. This is a fabulous disc.
Having a new Ur-text ought theoretically to mean, all the corrections have already been baked in. But this is a rich score, and while the Suites have gotten lots of play over the years, perhaps the full ballet has been a little unfairly insulated from the need for rapid correction, through its comparative (and undeserved) neglect for so long. The Craft recording here is therefore not only (and, naturally, most importantly) a glowing rendition of a shimmering score; but his liner notes are informative, detailed, and include a list of selected errata for the new Ur-text. Some of these are cosmetic, Augenmusik matters (the relative placement of the piano and harp on page 31, e.g.), but largely these are entirely useful pointers: the Ur-text neglects to mark the trumpets con sordino (muted) for their first entrance in measure 8, e.g..
One question I have, which may not have made Craft's necessarily incomplete errata list, since it is, simply, something one hears perfectly clearly (as opposed to subtleties such as the six bars to be struck from the violas on a certain page, for which the guidance is crucial) ... in the Finale, at the end of measures 1282 & 1284 (that is, the partial-measures immediately before rehearsal marks 207 & 208), there are aggressive crescendi driven by the timpani ... an exciting effect, but it isn't in the score, and I should be curious where it comes from in the sources.
Craft writes of restoring to the Finale (indeed, claims that this is the first recording to include this) two on-stage trumpets which play a sustained perfect fifth against the rhythmically-punched-out tune (the passage which, in retrospect, Aaron Copland spent so much effort imitating) for the few measures when it is in C major. My slightly mischievous quibble here is, that actually there are three on-stage trumpets, though (to be fair) not in the specific bars Craft referred to. But the score does have the three playing octave (concert) B's against the immense chorale in the rest of the brass at the close; and the three on-stage trumpets also figure in the chirpy tritones of Daybreak.
All this is really in gratitude to Craft, for this marvelous recording of his has really been the occasion to get to know this wonderful score much better.
One instance in which I take respectful but firm exception to Craft is, I entirely disagree that the music of the Firebird's supplication (begging Ivan Tserevich to release her) is at all "too long"; I think this comment is a sort of aesthetic retrofit. In the light of Stravinsky's subsequent career, his ballets tended to be more focused, "leaner"; but this does not imply that the more relaxed, expansive time-frame reflected in the Firebird is perforce "flabby" - not at all.
I should have read more than just the italicized bit... I was nearing the end of the review, wondering what's so bloody amusing about the review. :laugh:
Quote from: North Star on August 18, 2016, 10:29:07 AM
I should have read more than just the italicized bit... I was nearing the end of the review, wondering what's so bloody amusing about the review. :laugh:
Hah!
(Imagine my relief . . . .)
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.
Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:
http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on November 21, 2016, 07:55:22 AM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.
Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:
http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911
--Bruce
Cool.
Quote from: Brewski on November 21, 2016, 07:55:22 AM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.
Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:
http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911
--Bruce
Finally, we get to hear it. Why did it take a year to copy, make parts, and schedule a performance?
Quote from: Brewski on November 21, 2016, 07:55:22 AM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.
Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:
http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911
--Bruce
I just found out about this via a post on facebook from one of the radio stations I listen to. Really looking forward to hearing it!
ANOTHER 2 pAGE pOST dELETED BY an errant finger- oh, the furious rage >:D >:D >:D >:D
Anyhow-
Interested in:
'Le Savre'====== Fazil Say on Teldec... what could go wrong???
just ordered Peter Serkin Sonata and Serenade
have Sahk/Gavrlv Concerto 2P,.... wondering about Sonata 2P.....
furious rage over finger flubbing deletion, aaaarrrrggghh- not the patience to b wryterrr
Quote from: snyprrr on November 25, 2016, 11:08:13 AM
ANOTHER 2 pAGE pOST dELETED BY an errant finger- oh, the furious rage >:D >:D >:D >:D
Anyhow-
Interested in:
'Le Savre'====== Fazil Say on Teldec... what could go wrong???
just ordered Peter Serkin Sonata and Serenade
have Sahk/Gavrlv Concerto 2P,.... wondering about Sonata 2P.....
furious rage over finger flubbing deletion, aaaarrrrggghh- not the patience to b wryterrr
Well, neither the Serenade nor the Sonata, by Serkin, did much for me- though, the central 'Adagietto' on the latter had a nice, lattice-like quality. I thought they were more highly ranked, but, frankly, these two pieces seem as minor as a lot of the other Piano Music. There was an enjoyable, museum-like quality to the Serkin recording.
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.
Quote from: James on November 26, 2016, 04:18:40 PM
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.
I've heard it. :D
Quote from: James on November 26, 2016, 04:18:40 PM
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.
LOL, yea, I have it here... I'll take it with me today (as if I DIDN'T have it... oh, the humiliation!! :-*)
Quote from: jessop on November 26, 2016, 05:05:01 PM
I've heard it. :D
:P :P :P
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:P :P :P
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: James on November 26, 2016, 04:18:40 PM
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.
urvey
But... it was Pollini's fingers that I was impressed by. The music - as Piano Music- did remind me of "paraphrase city", meaning, it wasn't an original Piano Idea... which is why I left the ballets out of my Piano Survey (for now). I wanted to know what Iggy's "True Piano Music" inspiration would be- I believe it's the Concerto and Sonata for 2 Pianos, though, the Sonata itself has that "original Neo-Classic" sound.
But yea, Pollini's insane in the brain, insane puppet music, no doubt, whether for piano, or not. Pollini's fingers in those fast flourishes are really terrifying, such an attack!
Don't suppose I'd like 'Persephone'? Maybe I can't get Wishbone Ash out of my head.
Quote from: snyprrr on November 27, 2016, 05:11:59 PM
urvey
But... it was Pollini's fingers that I was impressed by. The music - as Piano Music- did remind me of "paraphrase city", meaning, it wasn't an original Piano Idea... which is why I left the ballets out of my Piano Survey (for now). I wanted to know what Iggy's "True Piano Music" inspiration would be- I believe it's the Concerto and Sonata for 2 Pianos, though, the Sonata itself has that "original Neo-Classic" sound.
But yea, Pollini's insane in the brain, insane puppet music, no doubt, whether for piano, or not. Pollini's fingers in those fast flourishes are really terrifying, such an attack!
Don't suppose I'd like 'Persephone'? Maybe I can't get Wishbone Ash out of my head.
Stravinsky's use of the instrument is more about 'the bones' that anything fancy from a pianistic standpoint. I like all of it.
I have Martin Jones's survey on Nimbus .. which is pretty serviceable. He doesn't compare to Pollini's technical polish/control on the rhythmically insane stuff ..
2 recent surveys I have to check out sooner or later are Jennifer Lin and Giacomo Franci ... should be some good stuff there, check Amazon.
Quote from: snyprrr on November 27, 2016, 05:11:59 PMI believe it's the Concerto and Sonata for 2 Pianos, though
There is a fine recording of these by Benjamin Frith & Messiaen specialist Peter Hill on Naxos.
Also on DG, Stockhausen specialists Alfons & Aloys Kontarsky coupled with Bartok's bonafide masterwork. Haven't heard this one yet.
I'll have to dig through my big Stravinsky box again, there are performances of some of the piano pieces by the Igor himself.
I wish Gould recorded some of these .. or even Russian pianist Sviatoslav Richter. Oh well.
Quote from: James on November 27, 2016, 05:59:40 PM
Stravinsky's use of the instrument is more about 'the bones' that anything fancy from a pianistic standpoint. I like all of it.
I have Martin Jones's survey on Nimbus .. which is pretty serviceable. He doesn't compare to Pollini's technical polish/control on the rhythmically insane stuff ..
2 recent surveys I have to check out sooner or later are Jennifer Lin and Giacomo Franci ... should be some good stuff there, check Amazon.
Check out Jenny Lin's 'The Eleventh Finger', Kampela, Ligeti, Gervasoni, Tenny, Sharp, Vivier....
Quote from: snyprrr on November 28, 2016, 05:41:49 AM
Check out Jenny Lin's 'The Eleventh Finger', Kampela, Ligeti, Gervasoni, Tenny, Sharp, Vivier....
With the exception of Ligeti, I have no interest in those composers. Found these .. (great music)https://www.youtube.com/v/T376ywJa2Oo
https://www.youtube.com/v/3C1PueA1WvM
Quote from: James on November 28, 2016, 02:13:35 PM
With the exception of Ligeti, I have no interest in those composers. Found these .. (great music)
https://www.youtube.com/v/T376ywJa2Oo
https://www.youtube.com/v/3C1PueA1WvM
wow, look at Jenny Lin's pinky!! a mind of its own!!! wow
Well, only the music that James is interested in is great music, that is clear.
Quote from: James on November 28, 2016, 03:05:16 AM
.. or even Russian pianist Sviatoslav Richter. Oh well.
Concerto for 2 Pianos
with Vassili Lobanov (Tours, 7 July 1985) on Philips 420157 (CD)
Movements for Piano and Orchestra
with Yuri Nikolayevsky, Orchestra of the Moscow State Conservatoire
(22 December 1984) on Revelation RV 10093 (CD)
Piano Rag Music
(Vienna, 20 Feb 1989) on Decca / London 436451 (CD) or 458807 (CD)
Quote from: Draško on November 30, 2016, 08:39:11 AM
Concerto for 2 Pianos
with Vassili Lobanov (Tours, 7 July 1985) on Philips 420157 (CD)
Movements for Piano and Orchestra
with Yuri Nikolayevsky, Orchestra of the Moscow State Conservatoire
(22 December 1984) on Revelation RV 10093 (CD)
Piano Rag Music
(Vienna, 20 Feb 1989) on Decca / London 436451 (CD) or 458807 (CD)
I agree with James, Stravinsky does not write idiomatic piano pieces. Interesting nevertheless.
Listening to the concerto for 2 pianos, 5 easy pieces (2 pianos), Three easy pieces (4 hands), Les cinq doigts, Ragtime, Valse des fleurs and Tango by the Labèque sisters from this box
Quote from: Brewski on November 21, 2016, 07:55:22 AM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.
Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:
http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911
--Bruce
A reminder for those interested,
Funeral Song will be live-streamed tomorrow at 2:00 (EDT) on medici.tv, with Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra. Also on the program:
Rimsky-Korsakov: Suite from
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya (this should be great, too)
Stravinsky:
The FirebirdWatch here:
http://www.medici.tv/#!/valery-gergiev-stravinsky-chant-funebre
--Bruce
Classical CD Of The Week: Scandals Once Upon A Time
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/12/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_DG_Scandale_Tristano-Ott_Stravinsky_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/12/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-scandals-once-upon-a-time/#60fe57256973 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/12/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-scandals-once-upon-a-time/#60fe57256973)
Quote from: Brewski on December 01, 2016, 12:39:10 PM
A reminder for those interested, Funeral Song will be live-streamed tomorrow at 2:00 (EDT) on medici.tv, with Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra. Also on the program:
Rimsky-Korsakov: Suite from The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya (this should be great, too)
Stravinsky: The Firebird
Watch here:
http://www.medici.tv/#!/valery-gergiev-stravinsky-chant-funebre
--Bruce
Just finished watching the resurrected
Funeral Song, Op. 5, and mostly enjoyed it, though perhaps it's not the composer's best work -- a little unfocused, at least, on first hearing. Parts sound very Debussy-esque, and the title might lead one to expect something more somber. It feels more like a rhapsody for orchestra. Nevertheless, it probably deserves to be heard more often than every 107 years! Gergiev and the Mariinsky crew sounded terrific, and the audio and video from medici.tv were up to their typically high standards.
The entire concert (
Firebird on now) will probably be available for viewing for a few weeks or months.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 02, 2016, 11:41:16 AM
Just finished watching the resurrected Funeral Song, Op. 5, and mostly enjoyed it, though perhaps it's not the composer's best work -- a little unfocused, at least, on first hearing. Parts sound very Debussy-esque, and the title might lead one to expect something more somber. It feels more like a rhapsody for orchestra. Nevertheless, it probably deserves to be heard more often than every 107 years! Gergiev and the Mariinsky crew sounded terrific, and the audio and video from medici.tv were up to their typically high standards.
The entire concert (Firebird on now) will probably be available for viewing for a few weeks or months.
--Bruce
Having heard it not long after listening to his earliest published works, I can say that the piece certainly marks a step forward in Stravinsky's command of orchestral timbre and harmonic material, though there are still the odd Wagnerisms (I was thinking a lot of Siegfried's Funeral with those chromatic string lines). I'll certainly want to listen again when more conductors start to take up the score next year, though Gergiev seemed to do quite well both here and in the luxuriant reading of Firebird that followed.
I should do exactly that: listen to the even-earlier pieces and then revisit this one -- excellent idea. (Also, I hope a recording will be forthcoming.) And yes, The Firebird was gorgeous -- when these forces are "on," they do it like no one else -- and I also very much enjoyed the Rimsky-Korsakov suite that opened the concert.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 02, 2016, 12:16:35 PM
-- and I also very much enjoyed the Rimsky-Korsakov suite that opened the concert.
--Bruce
I found the comparison between the orchestration of Rimsky City of Kitezh suite and Stravinsky Funeral songs quite interesting. After all it was composed to honor his teacher for his funeral. The "timbre" sound similar, but Stravinsky is so much more rythmic. Even more so in the ensuing Firebird.
Anyway this is my impression of the moment.
Quote from: Draško on November 30, 2016, 08:39:11 AM
Concerto for 2 Pianos
with Vassili Lobanov (Tours, 7 July 1985) on Philips 420157 (CD)
Movements for Piano and Orchestra
with Yuri Nikolayevsky, Orchestra of the Moscow State Conservatoire
(22 December 1984) on Revelation RV 10093 (CD)
Piano Rag Music
(Vienna, 20 Feb 1989) on Decca / London 436451 (CD) or 458807 (CD)
Thx for this .. I have 2 'Movements' performances with him, the one you list, and a really special one with Boulez conducting - really great.
Piano certainly isn't center stage here though, more outlining things.
I was thinking more of the solo piano stuff, Richter would have been great with it .. wish there was a lot more.
Who saw/heard Funeral Song op. 5 and what did you think? :)
Really lovely work I think!
Quote from: jessop on December 02, 2016, 11:02:39 PM
Who saw/heard Funeral Song op. 5 and what did you think? :)
Really lovely work I think!
It was
okay. Nothing really special.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on December 12, 2016, 07:51:57 PM
Why is it that the general view is that Le Sacre was just a one off that he turned his back against?
I hear Le Sacre in Petrushka (Pre-rite I know), Song of the nightingale, Agon, Variations for Huxley, Symphonies of wind instruments and parts of Requiem Canticles, especially ::)
And Symphony in Three Movements, parts of Threni...
Far from disowning the work, he absorbed all of the lessons he learned from it. While he never did something that was quite in the same vein throughout, there are certainly echoes of the work throughout his later career.
My comparison is with Schoenberg's Pierrot lunaire. Also wildly successful and a work that was much-admired and much-imitated by contemporaries (including Stravinsky), but one which the composer never tried to replicate by way of duplication.
Persephone
First Listen Ever: Liked it from the get-go! ;)
Hey, I didn't really take to 'Oedipus Rex' (S ;)lonen)... I had been hoping for that "icy" Igor, but I just didn't get what I thought I was going to get there, so I hesitated about a decade with 'Persephone'.
BUT!!
The French helped for me. And the music was the "right" Igor I was looking for, sounding more like 'Orpheus' than 'Le Sa ;)re'.
Anyhow... Davis looks like TopChoice?
Quote from: snyprrr on January 12, 2017, 02:32:24 PM
Persephone
First Listen Ever: Liked it from the get-go! ;)
Hey, I didn't really take to 'Oedipus Rex' (S ;)lonen)... I had been hoping for that "icy" Igor, but I just didn't get what I thought I was going to get there, so I hesitated about a decade with 'Persephone'.
BUT!!
The French helped for me. And the music was the "right" Igor I was looking for, sounding more like 'Orpheus' than 'Le Sa ;)re'.
Anyhow... Davis looks like TopChoice?
anyone? Persephone...
Quote from: snyprrr on January 12, 2017, 02:32:24 PM
Persephone
First Listen Ever: Liked it from the get-go! ;)
Good!
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: snyprrr on January 12, 2017, 04:26:29 PM
anyone? Persephone...
Not my favorite, but I'll get to it soon in my chronological traversal, and we'll see how my view has changed. The music is okay, very pretty, but it lacks the verve of the other Neoclassical works, I feel.
another link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdiyCf7RdyI
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 12, 2017, 05:45:16 PM
Not my favorite, but I'll get to it soon in my chronological traversal, and we'll see how my view has changed. The music is okay, very pretty, but it lacks the verve of the other Neoclassical works, I feel.
And here I was thinking it was a little mooore verve-y ;D
Stravinsky Ballet of the Week -
Jeu de cartes
(https://soulinteraction.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/12-183086-playing-cards.jpg)
Jeu de Cartes (The Card Game) is cleverly described as a ballet in three deals. Completed in 1936 for the newly formed American Ballet, whose choreographer was the young George Balanchine, the scenario deals with the game of poker, one of Stravinsky's favorite card games. The main character is the deceitful Joker, who fashions himself unbeatable, owing to his chameleonic ability to become any card. There are also other cards -- Queens, Aces -- and several card players portrayed in the ballet.
In the first two deals, the all-confident Joker dominates the proceedings, even if he does not always win. In the final deal, however, he is vanquished by a royal flush, ending his menace. Though the music is generally light, it clearly has a satirical side and the devious Joker is viewed by some to represent evil, perhaps the devil. Because of the growing tensions in Europe and the rise of Nazism during the time of its composition, many have also seen the ballet as a sort of allegory of the developing strife.
Jeu de Cartes contains several allusions to the works of other composers, a not atypical trait in much of Stravinsky's music. The second deal contains several notable instances: the first variation is related to the opening of the second movement of Beethoven's Symphony No. 8, and the fourth variation recalls Strauss' Die Fledermaus. In the Third Deal, Rossini's The Barber of Seville Overture is practically quoted. There are more than a few additional snippets from the music of other composers sprinkled throughout the score, including that of Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Delibes, and even from Stravinsky himself (the Violin Concerto, Mavra, and other works). But the main theme of the ballet, heard at the outset of each movement, may be the most remarkable appropriation since it appears to be a reworking or slightly veiled rendition of the famous "Fate" motto from Beethoven's Symphony No. 5. Near the end of the ballet, in fact, it appears almost unaltered from its form in the Beethoven symphony.
After the opening of the First Deal, the music becomes subdued and the work's episodic nature becomes apparent as a variety of inventive sequences and thematic ideas follow. Before the end of this deal the music works into a near-frenzy, then subsides once more.
After the work's main theme is stated at the outset of the Second Deal, the music retreats to a generally calm mood, then becomes more animated as the series of variations progresses. The Third Deal features the theme at the outset, after which the music never relaxes. A Ravelian waltz and the Rossini quotation suggest fun and satire, but also perhaps the deceptions of the Joker. Near the end, the "Fate" motif appears on the horns, then the oboes. The music concludes with the main theme asserting itself, but neither triumphantly nor jovially.
It should be noted that the quotations and allusions sound very much like Stravinsky, never like a reworking of the source music as the composer did in his ballet Pulcinella, fashioned from several works of Pergolesi. Jeu de Cartes is very much in the tradition of the composer's neo-Classical style, full of wit and brilliant orchestration.
A concert performance of the music typically lasts nearly 25 minutes. The composer conducted the first performance of the ballet, which took place at the Metropolitan Opera House in New York City on April 27, 1937.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like all Stravinsky ballets, this is an utterly fascinating work. I imagine the choreography would be something to behold considering the dancers are dressed like cards. Anyway, this ballet is full of cheeky fun and I love it. I figured it'd start a series of articles on Stravinsky's ballets. I urge everyone to listen to Jeu de cartes and let me know what you think. Any favorite performances?
Quote from: snyprrr on January 12, 2017, 04:26:29 PM
anyone? Persephone...
While I find the narration distracting at times, the music of Persephone is stunning. Not too dry but lyrical, warm and playful. Sadly, it seems neglected and is unknown to many. To me, it's right up there with Apollo as a great work of his neoclassic years.
Aye, Perséphone is a beauty.
The latest Stravinsky I've listened to was the Ogdon/ASMitF/Marriner account of the Capriccio. Arguably a minor, even BAU work, but really great fun.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 04:37:40 AM
Aye, Perséphone is a beauty.
The latest Stravinsky I've listened to was the Ogdon/ASMitF/Marriner account of the Capriccio. Arguably a minor, even BAU work, but really great fun.
Indeed a beauty. I love
Persephone, but it's one of those pieces I love only in specific performances.
Those few disparate elements (narrator, tenor, chorus) really have to come together and only Stravinsky's own and Andrew Davis' recordings click for me, Tilson Thomas and Nagano don't, for instance. I've yet to see Currentzis, choreographed on DVD.
I love
Capriccio as well, but never can disassociate it from Balanchine's choreography (Rubies):
https://www.youtube.com/v/51JELveLPkg
Quote from: Draško on February 27, 2017, 05:14:17 AM
Indeed a beauty. I love Persephone, but it's one of those pieces I love only in specific performances.
Those few disparate elements (narrator, tenor, chorus) really have to come together and only Stravinsky's own and Andrew Davis' recordings click for me, Tilson Thomas and Nagano don't, for instance. I've yet to see Currentzis, choreographed on DVD.
I think I have lucked out, then, as I have only heard
Stravinsky's own and
Andrew Davis' 8)
... and Currentzis conducted staged performance from Teatro Real is complete, with English subtitles, on youtube on EuroArts official channel. I'll watch it tonight.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Fa_qpv4PA64
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 05:26:27 AM
I think I have lucked out, then, as I have only heard Stravinsky's own and Andrew Davis' 8)
FWIW, I have no quibbles with Nagano's
Perséphone. :-\
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2017, 06:18:52 AM
But the main theme of the ballet, heard at the outset of each movement, may be the most remarkable appropriation since it appears to be a reworking or slightly veiled rendition of the famous "Fate" motto from Beethoven's Symphony No. 5. Near the end of the ballet, in fact, it appears almost unaltered from its form in the Beethoven symphony.
Perhaps you're aware of it already, but
Stravinsky himself deals with the origin of that "fate" theme in one of his books of conversations with
Robert Craft. He says it's based on the words he remebered the croupier of a casino (in a German town he used to hoilday at with his parents as a child) uttered each time he dealt: "
Ein neues Spiel, ein neues Glück" ("New game, new luck"). The words (in German) fit the music perfectly (I find myself singing them in my mind every time I listen to the ballet ;)).
Jeu de cartes is not my favourite Stravinsky by any means, but as you rightly point out,
John, it's full of fun.... :)
Quote from: Draško on February 27, 2017, 05:38:42 AM
... and Currentzis conducted staged performance from Teatro Real is complete, with English subtitles, on youtube on EuroArts official channel. I'll watch it tonight.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Fa_qpv4PA64
Performnaces I stupidly missed (the Teatro Real is about 20 minutes walking distance form my home) :-[ >:( ::). Not that I'm particularlty keen on
Perséphone i(and the coupling with
Tchaikovsky's
Mazeppa wasn't too appealing to me either), but the opportinity of seeing a neglected
Stravinsky score fully-staged is something that doesn't come along every day...
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2017, 05:54:38 AMPerhaps you're aware of it already, but Stravinsky himself deals with the origin of that "fate" theme in one of his books of conversations with Robert Craft. He says it's based on the words he remebered the croupier of a casino (in a German town he used to hoilday at with his parents as a child) uttered each time he dealt: "Ein neues Spiel, ein neues Glück" ("New game, new luck"). The words (in German) fit the music perfectly (I myself find myself singing them in my mind every time I listen to the ballet ;)).
Jeu de cartes is not my favourite Stravinsky by any means, but as you rightly point out, John, it's full of fun.... :)
I was just reading the other day in a magazine I had bought called
Listen, which discusses/reviews classical music, they had a whole feature article on
Jeu de cartes and it was quite an interesting read. "New game, new luck." This sounds like the philosophy of this ballet indeed.
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2017, 05:54:38 AM
Perhaps you're aware of it already, but Stravinsky himself deals with the origin of that "fate" theme in one of his books of conversations with Robert Craft. He says it's based on the words he remebered the croupier of a casino (in a German town he used to hoilday at with his parents as a child) uttered each time he dealt: "Ein neues Spiel, ein neues Glück" ("New game, new luck"). The words (in German) fit the music perfectly (I myself find myself singing them in my mind every time I listen to the ballet ;)).
There's a part later in Jeu de Cartes (Deal 3) where the music plays with the Beethoven 5 reference, and is about to state it before jumping off in a different direction suddenly.
Quote from: Mahlerian on February 27, 2017, 06:45:53 AM
There's a part later in Jeu de Cartes (Deal 3) where the music plays with the Beethoven 5 reference, and is about to state it before jumping off in a different direction suddenly.
Jeu de cartes quotes a lot of other music, too, not just Beethoven.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 06:56:39 AM
Jeu de cartes quotes a lot of other music, too, not just Beethoven.
Yes, Rossini stands out as well. It's a fun score.
Quote from: Mahlerian on February 27, 2017, 07:00:34 AM
Yes, Rossini stands out as well. It's a fun score.
It sure is! Of course, I never hinted that this ballet was a profound work, but sometimes it's good to let your hair down and unbutton your shirt and that 'having a good time' element is very strong in
Jeu de cartes. It also keeps you on your toes --- metaphorically speaking of course. ;)
I have not yet been really fair to Jeu de cartes. Soon, perhaps!
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 05:46:07 AM
FWIW, I have no quibbles with Nagano's Perséphone. :-\
I haven't heard it, so I have no opinion. And it is quite possible that if I hear it, I should like it . . . only reciprocally, the composer's and
Davis's recordings satisfy me entirely :)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 07:07:46 AM
I have not yet been really fair to Jeu de cartes. Soon, perhaps!
Oh, I don't see how any self-respecting Stravinskian, such as yourself, Karl, wouldn't enjoy the work. Comic mischief, sarcastic jabs, and derailed punchlines are the flavor of the day in
Jeu de cartes. 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 07:09:13 AM
I haven't heard it, so I have no opinion. And it is quite possible that if I hear it, I should like it . . . only reciprocally, the composer's and Davis's recordings satisfy me entirely :)
I need to pick up Davis' recording. I already own Stravinsky's, which I haven't heard in eons.
lSeems I got here just in time-
can you help me find some of these... what do you recommend?... here is what I was thinking:
1) RENARD- as a stand alone, I was thinking about Chailly (Decca; w/Walton) only because it stands alone. All the others
(Salonen, Wolff) have mostly duplicating recitals...
2) BAISER- Knussen looks like a good stand alone here?
3) JEU- Abbado with Pulcinella?
4) PULCINELLA- Abbado? I seem to like this "lush", so, Hogwood seemed to straight-n-clean... anyone else?
I already have SCENES DE BALLET with MTT,... and the DANSES CONCERTANTES with Dutoit,...
In general, how do you feel about Chailly? Dutoit? Salonen (the "coolest" of them all?)
Sometimes I want ice, sometimes I want fire...
I'll bet that Knussen leads the Clevelanders in a lovely Le baiser de la fée.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 10:40:14 AM
I'll bet that Knussen leads the Clevelanders in a lovely Le baiser de la fée.
Oh, it's lovely indeed, Karl. One of the best I've heard actually. Yet another reason to look into that
Complete DG set. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 10:43:16 AM
Oh, it's lovely indeed, Karl. One of the best I've heard actually. Yet another reason to look into that Complete DG set. ;)
Well, I was deciding that between the
Boulez/
Stravinsky 6-CD box, the
Knussen Flood/
Abraham & Isaac/
Requiem Canticles (the box doesn't include the
Wuorinen Reliquary as a historical extra, does it?), the
Abbado Pulcinella &c. that perhaps there was too much duplication 0:)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 10:49:53 AM
Well, I was deciding that between the Boulez/Stravinsky 6-CD box, the Knussen Flood/Abraham & Isaac/Requiem Canticles (the box doesn't include the Wuorinen Reliquary as a historical extra, does it?), the Abbado Pulcinella &c. that perhaps there was too much duplication 0:)
A clear-headed reasoning for not needing the box for sure. To answer your question, no, that Wuorinen work is not in the Stravinsky set.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 10:43:16 AM
Oh, it's lovely indeed, Karl. One of the best I've heard actually. Yet another reason to look into that Complete DG set. ;)
+1.
Knussen is excellent in
Le Baiser de la fée, and his CD of late
Stravinsky works (also on DG) is an extraordinary achievement.
As for
Pulcinella,
Abbado's recording ranks among the very best I am acquainted with (I am a bit biased, I admit, as I first got to know the work through it ). And
Teresa Berganza is to die for in the mezzo part.
Robert Craft on Naxos is also excellent IMHO.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 10:56:47 AM
A clear-headed reasoning for not needing the box for sure. To answer your question, no, that Wuorinen work is not in the Stravinsky set.
A pity! The
Wuorinen Reliquary is a beautiful, striking piece. And who knows if anyone other than
Knussen will record it . . . .
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2017, 10:58:08 AM
+1. Knussen is excellent in Le Baiser de la fée, and his CD of late Stravinsky works (also on DG) is an extraordinary achievement.
As for Pulcinella, Abbado's recording ranks among the very best I am acquainted with (I am a bit based, I admit, as I first got to know the work through it ). And Teresa Berganza is to die for in the mezxo part. Robert Craft on Naxos is also excellent IMHO.
Indeed. I'll add that Boulez's recording of
Pulcinella on Erato with the Ensemble Intercontemporain and vocalists Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, and Simon Estes is nothing to scoff at either. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 11:02:52 AM
Indeed. I'll add that Boulez's recording of Pulcinella on Erato with the Ensemble Intercontemporain and vocalists Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, and Simon Estes is nothing to scoff at either. :)
Well, and I must have that in this box here:
[asin]B00QFVL1PG[/asin]
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 11:06:02 AM
Well, and I must have that in this box here:
[asin]B00QFVL1PG[/asin]
Yep, it's in there along with
Le Chant du Rossignol,
Le Rossignol,
L'Histoire du soldat, and several miniature goodies.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 11:02:52 AM
Indeed. I'll add that Boulez's recording of Pulcinella on Erato with the Ensemble Intercontemporain and vocalists Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, and Simon Estes is nothing to scoff at either. :)
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard
Boulez fan (no news there ;)), I've never warmed to that recording, which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.
Regards,
Pulcinella makes for an interesting exception in my listening philosophy. As a general rule, I am all for the original, complete ballets rather than the suite—I apply this nearly with strictness to Жар-птица and Le baiser de la fée, e.g..
With Pulcinella, it is not that I prefer the suite, but that I feel that the suite does serve a good purpose, as a version of the piece performable without voices. In a way, I guess it is similar to my enjoying the Поручик Киже suite, whether with voices or without.
Well, since we're listing Pulcinella recordings now, I rather like this with Chailly..
[asin]B00000424Q[/asin]
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2017, 11:12:06 AM
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard Boulez fan (no news there ;)), I've never warmed to that recording, which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.
Regards,
Yes, I did detect a heaviness in the Boulez-led undertaking on Erato, but I still enjoyed it for the fact that it doesn't sound like many other performances I've heard and I think
Pulcinella benefits from different kinds of interpretations in general. It's interesting you mention humor, because I have never found humor in any Boulez's performances, but that's just me. I do find Craft's
Pulcinella to be excellent as well (and Abbado's for that matter). Honestly, I never heard a bad performance of the complete ballet. I like all that I've heard.
Quote from: North Star on February 27, 2017, 11:14:49 AM
Well, since we're listing Pulcinella recordings now, I rather like this with Chailly..
[asin]B00000424Q[/asin]
Yep, that's a good one, too, Karlo. 8) Like I said, I've never heard a bad recording of it. I'm not being very discriminating here, but it's the truth. Must be something wrong with my ears. ;)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 11:12:40 AM
Pulcinella makes for an interesting exception in my listening philosophy. As a general rule, I am all for the original, complete ballets rather than the suite—I apply this nearly with strictness to Жар-птица and Le baiser de la fée, e.g..
With Pulcinella, it is not that I prefer the suite, but that I feel that the suite does serve a good purpose, as a version of the piece performable without voices. In a way, I guess it is similar to my enjoying the Поручик Киже suite, whether with voices or without.
I love both versions. It doesn't matter which one I hear.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 11:17:14 AM
Honestly, I never heard a bad performance of the complete ballet. I like all that I've heard.
That might change once you've listened to the composer's first, mono recording with the Clevelanders (which you have in the big Sony box you bought recently). A very sloppy affair, I'm afraid. ::)
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2017, 11:25:26 AM
That might change once you've listened to the composr's first, mono recording with the Clevelanders (which you have in the big Sony box you bought recently ) A very sloppy affair, I'm afraid. ::)
I'll be sure to skip that one, then. ;) I don't like mono recordings anyway, so that alone strikes it off my list.
Upon revisitation of Cantata, I asked myself "Where has this music been all of my life?" It was then that answered myself, in truly psychopathic fashion, "In your storage boxes, silly." ;D
Quote from: North Star on February 27, 2017, 11:14:49 AM
Well, since we're listing Pulcinella recordings now, I rather like this with Chailly..
[asin]B00000424Q[/asin]
One of my aims here was to avoid any issues that coupled with TheBig3,... or that otherwise were just maddeningly duplicitous. The Salonen disc with Pulcie,Renard,Octet, and Ragtime and the Wolff disc with Pulcie,Renard,2Suites, and Ragtime,... you know? Therefore, and here's one for you all to think about, h- how is
Alun Francis on Arte Nova in Jeu/Baiser?
Anyhow, it seems you all have confirmed my inquiries- yea, it's interesting how these "best choices" present themselves and we all agree. I love when a plan comes together! 8)
Le Chant du Rossignol
Well, this whole time I thought this piece was a part of the Opera, and was a long, slow, rapturous vocalese, or, at least, an aria. I mean, why shouldn't I have assumed it was part of an opera?
Anyhow, flash forward to yesterday, when I'm looking through all the Igor I probably won't like ('Rage' I just didn't want to hear; 'Mavra' sounded nice in the background; 'Renard' sounded like fun), and I see LCDR sitting there in the middle like some refugee from 1906. I saw that it was 20mins., so, I guess... it has to be... sooomething,...mmm?
So, I got around to seeing the Boulez (DG) and Chailly (Decca) next to each other on the Q, and saw they almost had the same programme, and read the reviews, andAndAND...
WOW, the Chailly sample sounded like a Bartok-meets-Cowell???... or something pretty cool, very ticking, as the story I learned (see? I had no idea what it was). So, I was thinking 'Miraculous Mandarin', right? Anyhow, I didn't think Boulez did the same cool thing. What say ye?
Anyhow, now I reevaluate all these considerations in light of this MajorIgorMoment!!
Renard
I thought this was brilliant last night, heard it for the first time (Chailly, w/Walton). I usually can't handle that many warbling males voices, but of course here it is all done wonderfully. I just had it on in the background, but I could have sworn it sounded like Chailly conducting Hindemith there for a second in the beginning, Anyhow, this and 'Le Chant du...' were my two major discoveries last night.
Well, and 'The Fairy's Kiss',... didn't make it to 'The Card Game', but, at this point I'm going to figure that I'll like it as much as everything else.
can't fight it now :laugh:
Collecting Igor can be a bewildering proposition. Here are some of my guidelines-
1) APOLLO & ORPHEUS always always always need to go together. Add AGON if you want, but please,... right?
2) BAISER & JEU should go together... only one is Alun Francis on Arte Nova
3) It's always a good idea to have ALL THREE "SYMPHONIES" TOGETHER- witness Composer/CBS.
4) Please don't ruin a perfectly adventurous programme with a lousy SYM/PSALMS!!!!!
5) Put all PIANO & ORCHESTRA rogether- witness Salonen and Ashkenazy.
6) ALWAYS put SACRE with either
a- totally different Composer, ultra adventurous (Barenboim/Teldec)
b- TRY to get all of TheBig3 on one "disc",........ otherwise, just one of the other two,... maybe add 'Noces' into the mix for a
double? (Davis, Dorati)
c- totally off the wall Igor (Mackerras)
7) Don't mix it up so much that your programme comes into competition with every.single.purchase.always.
8) NO GRATUITOUS SACRES, or TheBig3.
9) Son't put Orchestra and Chamber Music together (Chailly- Baiser and clarinet solos???)
10 ) any more?
re: snypyyyrrrr
I am speechless.
I am without speech.
:blank:
Quote from: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 01:24:10 PM
Collecting Igor can be a bewildering proposition. Here are some of my guidelines-
1) APOLLO & ORPHEUS always always always need to go together. Add AGON if you want, but please,... right?
2) BAISER & JEU should go together... only one is Alun Francis on Arte Nova
3) It's always a good idea to have ALL THREE "SYMPHONIES" TOGETHER- witness Composer/CBS.
4) Please don't ruin a perfectly adventurous programme with a lousy SYM/PSALMS!!!!!
5) Put all PIANO & ORCHESTRA rogether- witness Salonen and Ashkenazy.
6) ALWAYS put SACRE with either
a- totally different Composer, ultra adventurous (Barenboim/Teldec)
b- TRY to get all of TheBig3 on one "disc",........ otherwise, just one of the other two,... maybe add 'Noces' into the mix for a
double? (Davis, Dorati)
c- totally off the wall Igor (Mackerras)
7) Don't mix it up so much that your programme comes into competition with every.single.purchase.always.
8) NO GRATUITOUS SACRES, or TheBig3.
9) Son't put Orchestra and Chamber Music together (Chailly- Baiser and clarinet solos???)
10 ) any more?
If a recording has an intelligent Stravinsky program then it's a success. As for your guidelines, well...thanks for the laugh. :D
lES nOCES
I left it like that to highlight its Modernity. All I ask for is your TopChoice. I expect no more than three...
AAAAHHHH- I don't have enough funds$$$!!!??? ??? :o ??? :o
GO FUND my Stravinsky binge!!
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 02:01:56 PM
If a recording has an intelligent Stravinsky program then it's a success. As for your guidelines, well...thanks for the laugh. :D
btw- that DG Box... yea, kinda tempting, BUT,... I do see they reached far and wide, but mostly Boulez,... some of the crucial choices are "pre-approved" though...
but I'm already too far down the rabbit hole...
I do like Mustonen... (oh, this
carbonara is expanding...excuse me...)
It was pretty obvious I was going to have an Igor "problem"... lol :'(
Quote from: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 03:06:36 PM
lES nOCES
I left it like that to highlight its Modernity. All I ask for is your TopChoice. I expect no more than three...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)
Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.
Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 10:33:31 AM
1) RENARD- as a stand alone, I was thinking about Chailly (Decca; w/Walton) only because it stands alone. All the others
(Salonen, Wolff) have mostly duplicating recitals...
QuoteDutoit?
The one below kills two birds with one stone: Renard
and Dutoit (and maybe three birds since the coupling looks right). It's the only Stravinsky I've heard by Dutoit but it is a
fabulous performance.
[asin]B00021SUI6[/asin]
IMHO, Boulez's Erato account of L'Histoire du soldat is quite fine:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XRrsvSTAL.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2017, 11:12:06 AM
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard Boulez fan (no news there ;) ), I've never warmed to that recording, which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.
Regards,
Cheers,
Rafael! The recording with the
Ensemble InterContemporain is peculiar in some ways. The interpretation is smoother, more romantified than (a) is usual for the
Stravinsky piece, and (b) is typical of the band (and, well, their Leader). So I could see the recording suffering in your estimation for those reasons. It is not my first choice (and you have now piqued my curiosity for the
CSO recording), but I admit I enjoy it as a musically strongly presented alternate take.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2017, 07:42:58 AM
Cheers, Rafael! The recording with the Ensemble InterContemporain is peculiar in some ways. The interpretation is smoother, more romantified than (a) is usual for the Stravinsky piece, and (b) is typical of the band (and, well, their Leader). So I could see the recording suffering in your estimation for those reasons. It is not my first choice (and you have now piqued my curiosity for the CSO recording), but I admit I enjoy it as a musically strongly presented alternate take.
Good day,
Karl! I see your point. I'm all for alternate approaches to great works
(as long as they're done the way I like them) :D
Perhaps, in this occasion, I'm being more papist than the Pope ;)
Hey, one prefers what one prefers! No fault.
Quote from: Draško on February 27, 2017, 03:48:20 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)
Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.
Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.
thx... almost there...
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 27, 2017, 04:03:31 PM
The one below kills two birds with one stone: Renard and Dutoit (and maybe three birds since the coupling looks right). It's the only Stravinsky I've heard by Dutoit but it is a fabulous performance.
[asin]B00021SUI6[/asin]
Soldat?
Have I ever heard... wait... what?... have I only heard the trio version? which I'm really ambivalent over (Charlie Daniels)... what's the best way to hear this music? and who?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2017, 08:49:14 AM
Hey, one prefers what one prefers! No fault.
Excellence Has No Preferences!! (Four Word Post, Karl)- three times, how's that? :laugh:
OK, closing in on the homestretch... finally
CONCERTO IN Eb
CONCERTO IN D
'Dumbarton Oaks' Concerto
I have Dutoit, but critics agree, he may be just a little polite, and I thought he missed the "ticking" theme, which I must now hear in strict "ticktock" rhythm. Please, lets settle this one right away. Somehow I imagine Chailly doing it well (remembering that 'Le Chant du Rossignol' sample).
Otherwise, Dutoit's sonics are fine, but there are so many oddball contenders out there: Guildhall, Norrington!!!!!, Colin Davis, Boulez, Hogwood, Orpheus, Sarasate (Virgin), the Endymion Ensemble (EMI-rare?), Howarth (EMI),
Surely there must be some neurotic out there with most of em...eh? What's the skinny?
Concerto in DEveryone always says that you have to be careful to whom you listen to in this one, because some, apparently, just don't "get it". All I have handy in Dutoit- the Reviewers seem to be kind to him, so, I eagerly awaited the first notes.
Now, I'm always getting the two 'Concertos' mixed up, but this time, I heard this dark, Martinu-like motorized horror show of "wrong note baroque", maybe a soundtrack for 'Nosferatu'? I like it this time, but it seems unfriendly in a way, but the direction, and sound, maximize everything into relief, yielding an imposing, and forced, musical argument that I can see turning audiences off at the time (and still not popular?).
I figured you could just look at this as a timbre piece. Dutoit gave up some niiice string tones, but is there anyone else whose strings are out of this world (Karajan besides).
I don't have Karajan at the hand, but I remember his being very criticized, yet checking now people seem to like the lushness...
Let's see, who else of note?...
Guildhall (RCA)
Iona Brown (Virgin)
Colin Davis
Salonen (SONY)
Turovsky
Sarasate (Virgin)
No Boulez here??? huh...Chailly?
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 28, 2017, 06:09:34 PM
If it's not loud, then you're not listening to Stavinsky :P
Now that you mention it, it does seem like Igor and IX share the dismissal of volume to the argument,... hmmm? Igor has a few normal quiet parts, but not so much in IX, but there is definitely an ON/off switch instead of a volume knob in both of them (and Feldman- pulling the sounds out of boxes on a desk).
I wouldn't say "loud", I would say "on", as in "oh that Igor, he's always 'on'"
as opposed to "oh that Romantic fellow, he's always going in and out." (with the dynamics)
Violin Concerto
I don't think I've ever ventured beyond that classic Mutter disc. I'd be really interested in some perhaps oddball or just outstanding recommends- Mutter&Co. are pretty glossy (are they?), not saying it's bad- doesn't leave me wanting, but it does make me wonder of others' approaches.
This is just full blown Igor-ama Mania Month March.
Quote from: Scion7 on February 27, 2017, 01:55:17 PM
re: snypyyyrrrr
I am speechless.
I am without speech.
:blank:
Don't just stand there, soldier, recommend us something excellent!! $:)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 28, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
What's your favorite "era" of Stravinsky Snyprrr? :)
You didn't ask me and this may be a complete cop-out, but I love all of Stravinsky's stylistic periods.
Quote from: Draško on February 27, 2017, 03:48:20 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)
Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.
Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.
I'd LOVE to own that Eotvos recording of both versions of
Les noces. It's curious that Hungaroton has never bothered reissuing it. :-\
Quote from: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 06:28:08 PM
Concerto in D
Let's see, who else of note?...
It's a well known fact the best Concertos in D come from Switzerland.
Hogwood in Basel re-creates 1947 concert where all three pieces were premiered. An absolute must:
[asin]B0007PLKSY[/asin]
... also composer himself, live in Lugano. My judgement on this one may be slightly clouded since it was the first Stravinsky CD I ever bought.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HkFmqMlVL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51d8Gulp13L.jpg)
Quote from: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 06:32:17 PM
Violin Concerto
I don't think I've ever ventured beyond that classic Mutter disc. I'd be really interested in some perhaps oddball or just outstanding recommends- Mutter&Co. are pretty glossy (are they?), not saying it's bad- doesn't leave me wanting, but it does make me wonder of others' approaches.
Scheiderhan/Ančerl
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 28, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
What's your favorite "era" of Stravinsky Snyprrr? :)
icy coolness?
Yes! A day or two ago I found myself following a car here (i.e. in the center of Ohio) with the license plate:
THRENI 8) 8) 8)
Quote from: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 06:32:17 PM
Violin Concerto
I don't think I've ever ventured beyond that classic Mutter disc. I'd be really interested in some perhaps oddball or just outstanding recommends- Mutter&Co. are pretty glossy (are they?), not saying it's bad- doesn't leave me wanting, but it does make me wonder of others' approaches.
Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me, but I've never heard a bad performance of the VC except for Isaac Stern/Stravinsky, but that's because I never have cared for Stern's screechy playing. Completely devoid of warmth and his violin tone is like nails on a chalkboard.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me,
Its ok. IF not for the Brahms coupling I would not have bought that disc. I for one do not get Igor's VC, maybe in due time.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me, but I've never heard a bad performance of the VC except for Isaac Stern/Stravinsky, but that's because I never have cared for Stern's screechy playing. Completely devoid of warmth and his violin tone is like nails on a chalkboard.
Stravinsky should have recorded it with someone who cared about the piece more. Stern never played it in concert before or after those recording sessions.
Isaac Stern is one of the great violin masters.
Another trip to the woodshed for M.I. !
(http://s18.postimg.org/pu3s9460p/who_needs_a_spanking_men_s_premium_t_shirt.jpg)
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 01, 2017, 06:56:11 PM
Its ok. IF not for the Brahms coupling I would not have bought that disc. I for one do not get Igor's VC, maybe in due time.
Well, I do
get Stravinsky's VC and love every minute of it. Hahn's performance is exemplary.
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 01, 2017, 08:15:18 PM
Stravinsky should have recorded it with someone who cared about the piece more. Stern never played it in concert before or after those recording sessions.
Indeed. If only. :-\
Quote from: Scion7 on March 01, 2017, 08:29:08 PM
Isaac Stern is one of the great violin masters.
Another trip to the woodshed for M.I. !
This doesn't mean I have to like or enjoy his playing, which I never have, so there.
Mullova/Salonen remains the only performance I've heard that makes sense of the piece to me. Kopatchinskaja/Jurowski is also not bad but can't really escape fluffiness.
Quote from: amw on March 01, 2017, 08:36:08 PM
Mullova/Salonen remains the only performance I've heard that makes sense of the piece to me. Kopatchinskaja/Jurowski is also not bad but can't really escape fluffiness.
Stravinsky's VC does contain profundity. Whether or not you can't pick up on it, isn't the composer's fault.
Nope. But performers often don't really try to bring it out, or don't succeed in doing so (imo).
Quote from: amw on March 01, 2017, 08:56:22 PM
Nope. But performers often don't really try to bring it out, or don't succeed in doing so (imo).
Yep, certainly your opinion.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me, but I've never heard a bad performance of the VC except for Isaac Stern/Stravinsky, but that's because I never have cared for Stern's screechy playing. Completely devoid of warmth and his violin tone is like nails on a chalkboard.
Karl recommended Schneiderham- nice enough- and then I went a seasrching:
1)
Perlman- oy vey, you think Stern is screechy?????? I was laughing out loud 20 secs. into it with IP. Oy, what horrible playing- I wonder if he thought he was adding some jew flavor or something- it sounds like Topol on acid!!!!!
2) Couldn't find Mullova, but how can she not be good?
3) Vengerov- couldn't hear, but I imagine he really bites into it??!!!>??
4) HAHN- well, wow- hey, I was all set to roll my eyes, but Marriner and Hahn are fast as shit and really dig into it. I'm no Sonicman when it comes to Hahn, but I had to give it to her here.
5) Mordkovitch??- samples sounded nice...
6) ???
There was more recordings than I thought......
Mutter is kinda "perfect"... I do want so "scratch", but not like I heard in Perlman!!
It is decades since I listened to this, and I should revisit it . . . the Sarge (among others) bespeaks the Prokofiev:
[asin]B0000041V4[/asin]
How do like Jarvi in Igor? Specifically- I heard the samples of the two Symphonies, and a few others from the set that sounded really really good (only samples though)- '...Psalms'?... I dunno, he's got an interesting selection of stuff...
And then there's Alexander Gibson... very clean sounding readings of the Symphonies...
Sorry, but I'll be pounding this Thread like a cheap hooker until I get what I want. :-X :-\ :-[
Symphony of Psalms
How can I forget that opening, that minor key piano figure, and that semi-tone on the strings? As I've been looking for an alternative to the classic Columbia/CBS recording, I'm finding too many variables. Really? Should it be so hard to get everything right?
Just from the first "lightning round", Solti seemed to make an impression... MTT??, I don't know what quite to make of that one... I see neither Salonen or Dutoit have one... Chailly gets critical marks for low-wattage... Celibidache plays it soooo slow... Karajan a bit too polished?... Shaw?...Shaw?...is it really that flabby?... Gardiner seemed a bit trimmed and polite?...
I totally expect one of you to come to my rescue here- surely you have already settled this one... (oy, if you tell me that Igor's is the best@!!)
I do really like Boulez and Craft in the Symphony of Psalms. May have a marginal preference for the following, with boy trebles in the choir:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NOaKcHbBL.jpg)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 02, 2017, 08:58:11 AM
It is decades since I listened to this, and I should revisit it . . . the Sarge (among others) bespeaks the Prokofiev:
I recall enjoying that, but having doubts of Chung's intonation.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 11:08:09 AM
Symphony of Psalms
How can I forget that opening, that minor key piano figure, and that semi-tone on the strings? As I've been looking for an alternative to the classic Columbia/CBS recording, I'm finding too many variables. Really? Should it be so hard to get everything right?
Just from the first "lightning round", Solti seemed to make an impression... MTT??, I don't know what quite to make of that one... I see neither Salonen or Dutoit have one... Chailly gets critical marks for low-wattage... Celibidache plays it soooo slow... Karajan a bit too polished?... Shaw?...Shaw?...is it really that flabby?... Gardiner seemed a bit trimmed and polite?...
I totally expect one of you to come to my rescue here- surely you have already settled this one... (oy, if you tell me that Igor's is the best@!!)
It's criminal that this is OOP now, but at least there's a cheap 'used - good' copy at Amazon.
[asin]B000002ZO4[/asin]
Requiem Cantiles- Knussen/DG or (Jarvi?)
Variations- Knussen/DG or MTT/RCA
Canon on Russian Tunes- MTT/RCA
Fanfare for A New Theatre- Boulez/DG(special promo) or Orpheus/DG or MDG
Elegy for JFK
In Memoriam Dylan Thomas .........all these Boulez/DG
4 Songs
3 Songs
THE RAKE'S PROGRESS DG or Decca ????? ????? ?????
(Tango)
Septet- I only know that the Ashkenazy/Decca seems to be the most high profile release??
(Concertino)- I only know of MTT/RCA
general choral works- all I really know here is the Igor/SONY, all-in-one... can you give some recs on Mass/Cantata/Cant.Sacr.
That's what I have for 1950-1966. Technically, not a great variety needed here... and, if you already have MTT and Ashkenazy and the Boulez 'Songs' for other things, the only expenditure for Igor's 'Late Period' would be the Knussen and 'Rake'.
You gotta eat an elephant one bite at a time! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 11:23:12 AM
Requiem Cantiles- Knussen/DG or (Jarvi?)
Variations- Knussen/DG or MTT/RCA
Knussen for both! That's one great disc.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 11:23:12 AMThat's what I have for 1950-1966. Technically, not a great variety needed here... and, if you already have MTT and Ashkenazy and the Boulez 'Songs' for other things, the only expenditure for Igor's 'Late Period' would be the Knussen and 'Rake'.
You gotta eat an elephant one bite at a time! ;)
Herreweghe's Threni is a must. It's the longest work of his late period, and in my list of Stravinsky's top 5 or 10 works. Stravinsky/Sony is iffy, Craft/Koch is dull, but Herreweghe/Phi is passionate and accurate!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 02, 2017, 11:12:59 AM
I do really like Boulez and Craft in the Symphony of Psalms. May have a marginal preference for the following, with boy trebles in the choir:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NOaKcHbBL.jpg)
Boulez was...mm... "perfect", I thought slow, but the timing was normal... Craft I liked (Koch/Naxos?) but the sound seemed a little recessed?- you can here the nice violence of the first hit though, Craft seemed the ballsy choice?
But, yea, the Hyperion has always seemed like the champagne choice... I know I've had it from some library, but, somehow I know I must have compared it with Igor/CBS and come away liking the latter??? I'll try to find the Hyprn on YT...
Have you heard the Celibidache? oy- so slow!!
I am HACKING my way through this flippin Igor Forest!! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 11:08:09 AM
Symphony of Psalms
How can I forget that opening, that minor key piano figure, and that semi-tone on the strings? As I've been looking for an alternative to the classic Columbia/CBS recording, I'm finding too many variables. Really? Should it be so hard to get everything right?
Just from the first "lightning round", Solti seemed to make an impression... MTT??, I don't know what quite to make of that one... I see neither Salonen or Dutoit have one... Chailly gets critical marks for low-wattage... Celibidache plays it soooo slow... Karajan a bit too polished?... Shaw?...Shaw?...is it really that flabby?... Gardiner seemed a bit trimmed and polite?...
I totally expect one of you to come to my rescue here- surely you have already settled this one... (oy, if you tell me that Igor's is the best@!!)
The O'Donnell performance on Hyperion is my pick here, but Stravinsky's own performance made an invaluable impression on me when I first-heard the work seven years ago. I like Craft and Bernstein a lot as well.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 11:23:12 AM
general choral works- all I really know here is the Igor/SONY, all-in-one... can you give some recs on Mass/Cantata/Cant.Sacr.
O'Donnell (Hyperion) or De Leeuw (Philips) for the
Mass. De Leeuw (Philips) for the
Cantata. O'Donnell for
Canticum Sacrum.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 02, 2017, 07:57:52 PM
Requiem Canticles and Variations for Huxley are two of my favorite Stravinsky works, period :D
Imagine if he had another 20 years ::)
He DID live till almost 90, NO REASON FOR COMPLAINT.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2017, 05:52:28 AM
He DID live till almost 90, NO REASON FOR COMPLAINT.
Hear, hear...if only we'd all be so lucky to live as full of life as Igor (and many other composers did).
Have you read the Amazon Reviews by the character who does the "Stravinsky vs. The Deserts"? Almost funny...
Quote from: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 01:32:14 PM
Have you read the Amazon Reviews by the character who does the "Stravinsky vs. The Deserts"? Almost funny...
To me the funniest part was when he said that the Capriccio was a demonstration of the futility and aridity of serial writing, or something like that. I can understand maybe thinking a weirder work like Zvezdoliki is 12-tone, but the Carpriccio????
AgonI found the cache of 'Agon' recordings on YT last night: Rosbaud, Leinsdorth, Mravinsky, Gielen, MTT (which I have), but no Craft (which I have in storage).
Well, I found Rosbaud the clear winner- why the rest have inferior mic placement is beyond me, but with Rosbaud you hear everything crisply delineated in sections of the listening sphere. Leinsdorf's sound is no where near as good, and neither is Mravinsky's. Even MTT seemed muffled by comparison. Gielen was crisp and modern, but didn't have a particularly special feel to it, whereas the Rosbaud feels special. Eh?
I just finished listening through the MTT. Yea, I guess I could stand for a little more "competition" here. It sounds more like "music" than a "game". I can imagine how someone like Rosbaud can bring ouf the competing, sectional aspect more. Still, the "Greek" feel of the music is somewhat there, but I don't feel MTT keeps up the act, it comes and goes. More rigorous discipline, a la Boulez, might have yielded the correct feeling? I felt like there was a herky-jerky feeling that was missing from MTT.
Anyhow, the Rosbaud is available on that SONY Box, no? 'Great Masterpieces of the 20th Century', or something?
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 03, 2017, 01:37:44 PM
To me the funniest part was when he said that the Capriccio was a demonstration of the futility and aridity of serial writing, or something like that. I can understand maybe thinking a weirder work like Zvezdoliki is 12-tone, but the Carpriccio????
Yea, he doesn't really have his analogy down, does he? LOL, but, yea, still kinda funny
Quote from: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 01:44:51 PM
Agon
I found the cache of 'Agon' recordings on YT last night: Rosbaud, Leinsdorth, Mravinsky, Gielen, MTT (which I have), but no Craft (which I have in storage).
Well, I found Rosbaud the clear winner- why the rest have inferior mic placement is beyond me, but with Rosbaud you hear everything crisply delineated in sections of the listening sphere. Leinsdorf's sound is no where near as good, and neither is Mravinsky's. Even MTT seemed muffled by comparison. Gielen was crisp and modern, but didn't have a particularly special feel to it, whereas the Rosbaud feels special. Eh?
I just finished listening through the MTT. Yea, I guess I could stand for a little more "competition" here. It sounds more like "music" than a "game". I can imagine how someone like Rosbaud can bring ouf the competing, sectional aspect more. Still, the "Greek" feel of the music is somewhat there, but I don't feel MTT keeps up the act, it comes and goes. More rigorous discipline, a la Boulez, might have yielded the correct feeling? I felt like there was a herky-jerky feeling that was missing from MTT.
Anyhow, the Rosbaud is available on that SONY Box, no? 'Great Masterpieces of the 20th Century', or something?
Yea, he doesn't really have his analogy down, does he? LOL, but, yea, still kinda funny
The
Rosbaud is primo.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Is there a French CD Promo of the Boulez 'Dunbarton & Ebony & 8 Miniatures', that also includes all the random Chamber Music, such as the clarinet and viola pieces, the 'Epitaphium' and 'Double Canon'??? This has the white DG cover of a line drawing of Igor- same as the LP. I also duplicates in the DG Box, but was never released? With Ensemble Intercontemporain
any availability?
Quote from: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 01:44:51 PMYea, he doesn't really have his analogy down, does he? LOL, but, yea, still kinda funny
In the interest of correcting my mistakes when I ridicule others'...the quote I was referring to was about the Concerto for Piano and Winds.
"For instance, the first movement of the Concerto for Piano and Winds sounds like a parody of Chopin's Funeral March which has spent an unhealthy amount of time in a microwave? For sheer vapidity, its finale is unsurpassable. It's a vivid reminder that serialism turned out to be nothing more than a blind-gut in the lower intestines of Western Civilisation."
He doesn't say anything more positive about the Capriccio, though.
"The dryness intensifies in the Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra. Even scorpions would say that it's an ordeal. With nary a melody in sight, it expounds the hegemony of rarefied intelligence over anachronisms such as talent, vision and longing to live on something more than mere bread. Its remit is not beyond the resources of a cactus."
I still think it's funny that the people who purport to hate serialism the most have no ability whatsoever to identify whether or not something is in fact serial.
Rosbaud and Gielen do wonderful Agons. Both very different, but I would have a difficult time choosing between the two for my personal favourite.
I'll put in another recommendation for the Salonen recording of the Violin Concerto with Mullova. I couldn't really put into words what it is about this one in particular, but it feels like rhythmically, dynamically, in timbre, in overall sound, nothing is a hair out of place, and yet it is not at all mechanical. Total coherence. Where someone earlier said it was fluffy, I would say it is full of wit and invention.
Having listened the other day to Stravinsky's own recording (1957 LA Festival SO)--perhaps the sonics suffer by comparison, but the musicality itself is hard to beat.
MY MOST IMPORTANT STRAVINSKY QUESTION:
The very very ending of the Symphony in C, the final string chord,- in the Stravinsky CBS, the chord has a big big sound up close, and it is my most cherished IgorMoment,- I can't tell you how much it mean to me,-
but
I can't seem to find another. Of co. urse, no one is recorded as up close as that CBS, so, it would be fake sounding (as it is, I suppose in that one, but, you know, it sounds so great). Dutoit is very quiet.
Karajan caught me. He's quiet, but he lets the chord ring out a while.
Which brings me to Karajan's c Symphony. I love it. The 1969 sound is spectacular, and, of course, it sounds better than the CBS. Japan pressing has it with DSCH 10- a great coupling!!
I just wanted to draw your attention to Karajan here. I had no idea. I rechecked his Concerto in D, and, as per its reputation as being a completely wrong interpretation, it does sound completely "teutonic", as opposed to Dutoit's quite charmingly French,... err, Swiss?, take. Karajan takes the 1st mvmt. a minute longer I think...
anyhow, Karajan = C
He also did the 'Circus Polka', lol!
It's a madhouse in this Thread. Every man for themselves!!
Who has made their first impulse buy?
Quote from: Crudblud on March 03, 2017, 03:34:09 PM
Rosbaud and Gielen do wonderful Agons. Both very different, but I would have a difficult time choosing between the two for my personal favourite.
I'll put in another recommendation for the Salonen recording of the Violin Concerto with Mullova. I couldn't really put into words what it is about this one in particular, but it feels like rhythmically, dynamically, in timbre, in overall sound, nothing is a hair out of place, and yet it is not at all mechanical. Total coherence. Where someone earlier said it was fluffy, I would say it is full of wit and invention.
Rosbaud has "characterful" sound whereas Gielen just has "great" sound ;D
You won me over to Mullova.
I'm curious if it's safe to disregard Venerov/Rosty, or not...???...
Stravinsky Listening Days are at fever pitch here. This Thread is HOT!! 8)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 03:19:16 PM
Is there a French CD Promo of the Boulez 'Dunbarton & Ebony & 8 Miniatures', that also includes all the random Chamber Music, such as the clarinet and viola pieces, the 'Epitaphium' and 'Double Canon'??? This has the white DG cover of a line drawing of Igor- same as the LP. I also duplicates in the DG Box, but was never released? With Ensemble Intercontemporain
any availability?
(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20100412/170466232268.jpg)
AFAIK, this album was only issued on CD (with this cover) in Japan (and I'm not 100% certain of that either to be honest). But the contents is available in the "Stravinsky Complete Edition" and the "Boulez conducts Stravinsky" boxes on DG.
Dumbarton Oaks and the
Ebony Concerto are avaialbale on an Originals issue along with the
Berg Chamber concerto... A pity, because the cover is quite attractive, as was that of the original LP issue of the album with Stravinkys songs:
(https://img.discogs.com/i1TaoCDiO69zphB9Ivtsy7DEu2c=/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3442385-1330543819.jpeg.jpg)
When transferred to CD, they used a plain cover (as usual with DG's "20th Century Classics" series :( )
Quote from: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 09:01:07 PM
It's a madhouse in this Thread. Every man for themselves!!
Who has made their first impulse buy?
It's an album about which I have been curious forever, but this thread's revivification was the occasion for my fetching the download of the
Eötvös recording of the two versions of
Свадебка.
Quote from: Crudblud on March 03, 2017, 03:34:09 PM
Rosbaud and Gielen do wonderful Agons. Both very different, but I would have a difficult time choosing between the two for my personal favourite.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 03, 2017, 05:11:30 PM
Having listened the other day to Stravinsky's own recording (1957 LA Festival SO)--perhaps the sonics suffer by comparison, but the musicality itself is hard to beat.
Yes and yes.
Quote from: ritter on March 04, 2017, 12:45:00 AM
(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20100412/170466232268.jpg)
AFAIK, this album was only issued on CD (with this cover) in Japan (and I'm not 100% certain of that either to be honest). But the contents is available in the "Stravinsky Complete Edition" and the "Boulez conducts Stravinsky" boxes on DG. Dumbarton Oaks and the Ebony Concerto are avaialbale on an Originals issue along with the Berg Chamber concerto... A pity, because the cover is quite attractive, as was that of the original LP issue of the album with Stravinkys songs:
(https://img.discogs.com/i1TaoCDiO69zphB9Ivtsy7DEu2c=/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3442385-1330543819.jpeg.jpg)
When transferred to CD, the used a plain covers (as usual with DG's "20th Century Classics" series)
Rafael, now I need to listen to
Dumbarton Oaks and
Ebony Concerto no thanks to you! ;) ;D But, seriously, those are fine Boulez performances. His
Dumbarton Oaks may very well be my favorite performance of the work.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 04, 2017, 04:53:02 AM
Rafael, now I need to listen to Dumbarton Oaks and Ebony Concerto no thanks to you! ;) ;D But, seriously, those are fine Boulez performances. His Dumbarton Oaks may very well be my favorite performance of the work.
Yep, a great performance IMHO. The tempi are just right,, and that airiness I miss in the Erato
Pulcinella is fully captured here. I couldn't now say which is my favourite performance of this wonderful work, though. ..
Quote from: ritter on March 04, 2017, 05:49:55 AM
Yep, a great performance IMHO. The tempi are just right,, and that airiness I miss in the Erato Pulcinella is fully captured here. I couldn't now say which is my favourite performance of this wonderful work, though. ..
Craft has a rather excellent
Dumbarton Oaks that I'd rank highly along side of Boulez's.
My favorite for Agon (other than the composer's closely miked warts-n-all recording, and later featured on a great 3 disc set on Sony, Ballets Vol. II) .. is the Naxos disc, which features a great, great program. From start to finish a really strong 'album'. For chamber-oriented music, excellently performed, recorded, programmed .. the Decca twofer entitled "Chamber Works & Rarities" .. it includes "Dumbarton" and a broad variety of thoughtful & imaginative musical compositions.
Quote from: ritter on March 04, 2017, 12:45:00 AM
(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20100412/170466232268.jpg)
AFAIK, this album was only issued on CD (with this cover) in Japan (and I'm not 100% certain of that either to be honest). But the contents is available in the "Stravinsky Complete Edition" and the "Boulez conducts Stravinsky" boxes on DG. Dumbarton Oaks and the Ebony Concerto are avaialbale on an Originals issue along with the Berg Chamber concerto... A pity, because the cover is quite attractive, as was that of the original LP issue of the album with Stravinkys songs:
(https://img.discogs.com/i1TaoCDiO69zphB9Ivtsy7DEu2c=/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3442385-1330543819.jpeg.jpg)
When transferred to CD, the used a plain covers (as usual with DG's "20th Century Classics" series)
I'm trying to avoid those DG Boxes, even though most of either are mandatory. This French/Japanese "Promo" has just those remaining items one desires but can only get in those Boxes. That "Songs" CD is also more expensive than I'd hoped, and I can't tell if only ArkivBurns are available...
Quote from: ritter on March 04, 2017, 05:49:55 AM
Yep, a great performance IMHO. The tempi are just right,, and that airiness I miss in the Erato Pulcinella is fully captured here. I couldn't now say which is my favourite performance of this wonderful work, though. ..
I enjoyed Boulez's 'Dumbarton' more than the Orpheus CE. I thought 'Shadow Dances' was going to be mandatory, but I'm not sure I like their glossy style. 'Octet' was the best thing I heard on their album, though the '2 Pieces' for SQ was more unbuttoned than the AlbanBergQ.
Quote from: James on March 04, 2017, 07:50:25 AM
My favorite for Agon (other than the composer's closely miked warts-n-all recording, and later featured on a great 3 disc set on Sony, Ballets Vol. II) .. is the Naxos disc, which features a great, great program. From start to finish a really strong 'album'. For chamber-oriented music, excellently performed, recorded, programmed .. the Decca twofer entitled "Chamber Works & Rarities" .. it includes "Dumbarton" and a broad variety of thoughtful & imaginative musical compositions.
I just did a survey of the Ragtime-Octet-Pastorale-Concertino with the Ashkenazy you mentioned (which I have), the Boston Symphony Chamber Players and the Orpheus. The BSCP trumped them all in charm (though, some reviewers don't like them at all), and the Orpheus really sound too L.A. in comparison- their 'Ragtime' was just awfully non-raggy, just listen to the BSCP in comparison. The Ashkenazy set definitely has a "European" feel to it whilst the BSCP have a much looser, "American jazzy" feel. Props to Chailly also in the 'Octet'.
As per the 2nd disc in that Decca set, I'm really coming around to Dutoit. I thought his Concerto in D is one of the most charming, and "right" (Marriner I liked the best; Karajan not-so-much). But, Dutoit's 'Dumbarton' is just a tweak slow in the 'Vivace' opening, which Boulez rectifies (Igor's "lugano" recording is waaay too fast).
The Dutoit disc with Apollo-Dumbarton-DConcertantes-ConcertoD - I'm am converted to his 'Apollo' now- anyhow, that's about a 1stChoice.
Heady times here, oy vey, my head spinning....
Anyhow- between Decca's 'Chamber Works & Rarities' and the MTT/RCA 'Stravinsky in Hollywood', you can at least get a wide wide sampling of Igor's lesser know works. The MTT especially has such a varied programme that it cancels out a lot of other buying options.
Marriner's LA Chamber LP has never fully been issued on NewMedia. His Concerto in D is the best I've heard so far.
hERE'S WHAT i HAD GOING IN:
1) 3 Symphonies: Igor/CBS
2) Crossley/Salonen Piano+Orchestra/SONY
3) 'Chamber Works & Rarities' Ashkenazy/Decca
4) Apollo+Orpheus Lubbock/ASV
5) Apollo+Orpheus+Agon Craft/Naxos
6) string quartets AlbanBergQ/EMI
7) ;Hommage a Stravinsky Schleiermacher+Friends/MDG (includes Berio, Carter, Boulez, Denisov...)
8) Concerto in D Karajan/DG
9) 6 different 'Sacres' (not really for current purposes) but, includes Salonen's 'Symphony in 3 Mvmts', Inbal's '4 Etudes'.
Colin Davis's 'Petrushka', and minor bits from Mackerras (Dorati/Decca, nIbal/Teldec, Salonen/SONY, Barenboim/Teldec, Mackerras/CfP, Davis/Philips)
10) Complete Violin+Piano Mustonen/van Keulen/Philips
11) Sonata+Serenade Peter Serkin/NewWorld
12) Choral Music Igor/SONY (Threni....)
13) 'Stravinsky in Hollywood' MTT/RCA
Here's the panic buying so far (I think I'm keeping it together pretty good so far)
1) 'The Flood/Variations' Knussen/DG
2) Pulcinella+Jeu des Cartes Abbado/DG
3) Piano Music (w/Bartok) Ranki/Apex-Teldec
Here's what we're considering:
1) 'The Fairy's Kiss' Knussen/DG
2) 'Le Chant du Rossignol' either Dutoit or Chailly
3) 'Dumbaron Oaks-Ebony Concerto' Boulez/DG French/Japanese Promo
4) 'Songs' Boulez/DG $$$ $$$
5) 2 Piano Music (w/Bartok) Kontarsky/DG $$$ $$$
6)
That pretty much catches me up (minus Operas, Les Noces). Then there's a few duplicates, such as Dutoit's 2 Symphonies (or Karajan), maybe Jarvi's 'Orpheus' (???), or whatnot....
I realized I don't have a 'Firebird', (listening to Rattle now), but I think I'd go for Dutoit first.
And, for current purposes, I was hoping to exclude 'Petrushka' but, all I have is Davis/Philips... maybe Boulez/SONY??...
nickle and dimin' me here.....
Quote from: Draško on February 27, 2017, 03:48:20 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)
Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.
Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.
Actually, you forgot that Craft did indeed record BOTH versions of
Les noces as found here:
(http://ecsmedia.pl/c/stravinsky-symphony-of-wind-instruments-les-noces-chant-du-rossignol-b-iext47796414.jpg)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 04, 2017, 09:08:05 AM
5) 2 Piano Music (w/Bartok) Kontarsky/DG $$$ $$$
This can be had for 12 EUR "used - very good" at amazon.de, but the shipping will probably be expensive if they ship to the US at all...
A lot of this "20th century classics" DG series is worth getting but unfortunately while some can be found cheaply other have been long out of print or are very expensive.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 05, 2017, 06:33:25 AM
This can be had for 12 EUR "used - very good" at amazon.de, but the shipping will probably be expensive if they ship to the US at all...
A lot of this "20th century classics" DG series is worth getting but unfortunately while some can be found cheaply other have been long out of print or are very expensive.
Well, when I say "expensive" I mean $14.99 :laugh:
Variations
The Knussen arrived... I went straight for the 'Variations', having only know the MTT, with its somewhat recessed acoustic. Well, wow, first off one notices the speed- Knussen takes a minute less than MTT, in a five minute piece!! And Knussen's recording has everything delineated and clean, clearing up what I struggled to hear in the MTT. The music itself seems to make much more sense here- I never quite "got" what was going on in the MTT, being I'd never heard the work before.
As a Serial type Avant piece from a Master, how do the 'Variations' stack up against any other Master's similar work- who does it remind you of- what's going on here? I'm not sure I got a bead other than "post-Webern"- it just seems like a nice, crystalline Serialtype work, different sections exploited, registers...
anyhow, Knussen certainly clarifies the work,...
Also, the 'Requiem Canticles' ... ahhhh, what to say?...
Haven't made it to 'The Flood' or 'Abraham & Isaac', but,... eh,... can someone pre-warn me or something?... I don't think I'm up for Biblical Igor Hollywood singing... hold my hand 0:)
Knussen's programme really does Igor service! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 05, 2017, 07:31:48 AM
Variations
The Knussen arrived... I went straight for the 'Variations', having only know the MTT, with its somewhat recessed acoustic. Well, wow, first off one notices the speed- Knussen takes a minute less than MTT, in a five minute piece!! And Knussen's recording has everything delineated and clean, clearing up what I struggled to hear in the MTT. The music itself seems to make much more sense here- I never quite "got" what was going on in the MTT, being I'd never heard the work before.
As a Serial type Avant piece from a Master, how do the 'Variations' stack up against any other Master's similar work- who does it remind you of- what's going on here? I'm not sure I got a bead other than "post-Webern"- it just seems like a nice, crystalline Serialtype work, different sections exploited, registers...
anyhow, Knussen certainly clarifies the work,...
Also, the 'Requiem Canticles' ... ahhhh, what to say?...
Haven't made it to 'The Flood' or 'Abraham & Isaac', but,... eh,... can someone pre-warn me or something?... I don't think I'm up for Biblical Igor Hollywood singing... hold my hand 0:)
Knussen's programme really does Igor service! ;)
One fabulous disc!
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 05, 2017, 06:22:05 AM
Actually, you forgot that Craft did indeed record BOTH versions of Les noces as found here:
(http://ecsmedia.pl/c/stravinsky-symphony-of-wind-instruments-les-noces-chant-du-rossignol-b-iext47796414.jpg)
Yes, I tend to forget it because it was never released on CD to best of my knowledge.
But if one has a turntable (it might be available as a download as of recently) it's definitely worth hearing as it includes 1917 full orchestra version and not the standard 1923 but two movements of 1919 version for pianola, two cimbaloms, harmonium and percussions which Stravinsky never finished.
Stravinsky really spent a long time searching for the right orchestration for Les Noces, and I think he did succeed in the end as the final 1923 version is just perfect, I much prefer it to earlier efforts/drafts.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 05, 2017, 07:31:48 AMAs a Serial type Avant piece from a Master, how do the 'Variations' stack up against any other Master's similar work- who does it remind you of- what's going on here? I'm not sure I got a bead other than "post-Webern"- it just seems like a nice, crystalline Serialtype work, different sections exploited, registers...
Stravinsky was certainly aware of and interested in the kind of music being written by his younger colleagues, from Carter to Boulez. A lot of things in their music seem not to have filtered into his, like Carter's penchant for Varese-like bursts of pure percussion or Boulez's gamelan-like sonorities. Still, the fragmentation of the row that you hear in the Variations is definitely in line with their aesthetics.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 05, 2017, 07:31:48 AMHaven't made it to 'The Flood' or 'Abraham & Isaac', but,... eh,... can someone pre-warn me or something?... I don't think I'm up for Biblical Igor Hollywood singing... hold my hand 0:)
Abraham and Isaac is about as far from Hollywood as one can get; it's set in Hebrew to a very sparse accompaniment with a heavily ornamented solo singer's line.
Quote from: Draško on March 05, 2017, 09:37:34 AM
Yes, I tend to forget it because it was never released on CD to best of my knowledge.
But if one has a turntable (it might be available as a download as of recently) it's definitely worth hearing as it includes 1917 full orchestra version and not the standard 1923 but two movements of 1919 version for pianola, two cimbaloms, harmonium and percussions which Stravinsky never finished.
...
They've included this disc in the big "Complete Album Collection" box on Sony. Good to have it on CD (I've owned the LP for ages, but don't have a turntable these days)...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 05, 2017, 09:17:44 AM
One fabulous disc!
A resounding
+1...really top-notch!
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4470682.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on March 05, 2017, 10:02:49 AM
They've included this disc in the big "Complete Album Collection" box on Sony. Good to have it on CD (I've owned the LP for ages, but don't have a turntable these days)...
That's good, finally on CD. For those who might want a single CD rather than 56 CD box, there is a relatively recent French recording of 1923 plus 1919 fragment, a shortish CD which I haven't heard:
[asin]B00699QPNM[/asin]
Quote from: Draško on March 05, 2017, 10:20:59 AM
That's good, finally on CD. For those who might want a single CD rather than 56 CD box, there is a relatively recent French recording of 1923 plus 1919 fragment, a shortish CD which I haven't heard:
[asin]B00699QPNM[/asin]
That is a very interesting CD, particularly because it offers a rather different and fresh approach of the standard, definitive 1923 version..one I find less folksy and more urbane...interesting, I repeat. :)
Quote from: ritter on March 05, 2017, 10:27:04 AM
That is a very interesting CD, particularly because it offers a rather different and fresh approach of the standard, definitive 1923 version..one I find less folksy and more urbane...interesting, I repeat. :)
Thanks, I'll keep it in mind. I'd quite like to hear that kind of performance, even if not completely successful.
I was always thinking Boulez would go for that approach but that recording has proven bit difficult to find at reasonable price.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 05, 2017, 09:17:44 AM
One fabulous disc!
Seriously having problems with yer boy Charlie W's piece, though. Had to turn it off twice already...I was sure I would like it, but from the get-go I'm like, What is this _____? Sooooo busy... after all this sparse and spare Igor, Charlie's piece comes off as "trying to please"... who?, I dunno...
maybe I'll make it through it on a rainy day??
Le Chant du Rossignol (1917)
I didn't know Igor had written a 'Miraculous Mandarin' too?!?! Seems this work is an anomaly... an actual TonePoem... anyhow, I like the Digital recordings by Chailly and Dutoit. Chailly's is a little more diamond edged bright, whereas Dutoit has "frosting"... I'm leaning towards Dutoit just because of the smoothness...
what say ye?
ANY VERSION has to have that correct "ticking" rhythm... which I found lacking in Boulez/DG... but found in Chailly and Dutoit...
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2017, 11:39:50 AM
Le Chant du Rossignol (1917)
I didn't know Igor had written a 'Miraculous Mandarin' too?!?! Seems this work is an anomaly... an actual TonePoem... anyhow, I like the Digital recordings by Chailly and Dutoit. Chailly's is a little more diamond edged bright, whereas Dutoit has "frosting"... I'm leaning towards Dutoit just because of the smoothness...
what say ye?
ANY VERSION has to have that correct "ticking" rhythm... which I found lacking in Boulez/DG... but found in Chailly and Dutoit...
Check out Boulez's with the Orchestre de France on Erato. One of my favorite performances of the work.
Making my way through the Columbia Iggie Fyvich conducts Iggie Fyvich set. Tonight it was the "little" operas: Le Rossignol and Mavra. I have to say that Igor Fyodorovich does a rather good job of presenting his own works. The sonics sometimes suffer, but even a well known thing like the Firebird Suite comes out well, compared to big modern conductors.
Colin DavisI have been smelling what Davis had cooked, and there does seem to be quite a bit of interest going on here. The early 'Oedipus' on EMI, I believe an album of concertos (?), and, most recently discovered last night, the two big Symphonies on Philips. These are especially vibrant readings as compared with Boulez, Solti, and Dutoit.
MataRumors of an incredible 'Symphony in 3 Movements'
Maazel
I said YES to his 'Symphony of Psalms' and ...'3 Mvmts' on RCA. C'mon guys, how can't you like this, as compared to, say, Boulez/DG?
Bernstein '...3 Mvmts' was just a touch too fast and hairy...IPO/DG...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 05, 2017, 09:17:44 AM
One fabulous disc!
I read your review of Boulez Symphonies/DG.... nice... must have been written before your OneWordPhase :laugh: ... glad you gave it
one for...
HOWEVER
That IS the best 'Symphonies of Wind Instruments' EVER... why no one else??.... I mean, who else uses the original version??????
Quote from: snyprrr on March 07, 2017, 04:42:29 AM
Colin Davis
I have been smelling what Davis had cooked, and there does seem to be quite a bit of interest going on here. The early 'Oedipus' on EMI, I believe an album of concertos (?), and, most recently discovered last night, the two big Symphonies on Philips. These are especially vibrant readings as compared with Boulez, Solti, and Dutoit.
ok, I've hit my first Indiana Jones moment...
I see the London SO recording of the two Symphonies that I enjoyed so much is on that Philips 2CD Compilation, w/ Markevitch.... and then I see the Philips CD of the two Symphonies with the Bavarian Radio SO...
OK, so, Davis had an Igor career on LP (I'm assuming the LSO Symphonies are early 70s?), and then redid most all of it in the CD era? I see a LSO 'Le Sacre', and also a Concertgebouw.
So, has anyone compared the LSO Symphonies with the BRSO? The former is on YT; the latter I heard samples of on the Davis Decca/Philips Box. Am I correct that the BRSO versions is not at all what the LSO are?
SEE HOW PEOPLE GO NUTTY ON SILLY HOBBIES LIKE THIS???!!!!!!! (of course, not me!!)
I didn't want to introduce the Symphonies into our current Thread Discussion yet,... mice and men...
Quote from: Jo498 on March 05, 2017, 06:33:25 AM
This can be had for 12 EUR "used - very good" at amazon.de, but the shipping will probably be expensive if they ship to the US at all...
A lot of this "20th century classics" DG series is worth getting but unfortunately while some can be found cheaply other have been long out of print or are very expensive.
I thought that reissue, with "Debussy Ravel Stravinsky" only had one of the IS works,... and it does, but, it's the one (Sonata) I don't have, so, yay, saved another $15!! The incredibly well filled 'Chamber Works & Rarities' (Decca2CD) has Askenazy & Gavrilov's Concerto for 2 Pianos.
i WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE HEARD iGOR'S '10 pIECES FOR pIANO (sorry)
Le Baiser de la Fee
Divertimento
As much as I want to be the PerfectConsumerist, I just don't think I can sit through 50mins. of faux-Tchaikovsky, frankly somewhat boring ballet music,... sorry,...
Do any of you sit around basking in this score more often than once a year? I mean, it's long, and you have to admit that it is pretty old fashioned, semi-snoozy type music,... no? Really? This is SOOOO exciting that you will fight over it?
I just don't believe it.
I can hear Karl telling me how great it is, but I still wouldn't believe that he breaks out the Knussen on a weekly, or monthly, basis. What am I missing here that I am about ready to dismiss this work from serious consideration (maybe it's that I'd have to spend HARD EARNED MONIES on faux-Tchaikovsky/Stravinsky Ballet Music... I mean, I ALREADY know what it is... I've been sampling YT all morning... I just can't get it up for this...
drugs aren't helping :(
btw- is Knussen THAT much better than Atherton?
Don't get me wrong- I enjoy my boring Igor as much as anyone,... but 50mins. of this stuff might make me angry... I can't afford that... what do I do??
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 06:57:02 AMwhat do I do??
Easy: forget the complete ballet and just buy the Divertimento.
Sarge
I'm not about to argue the case for Le baiser de la fée, but all I can say is I enjoy the work and don't find it 'boring' at all.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 06:57:02 AM
Le Baiser de la Fee
[ snip ]
I can hear Karl telling me how great it is, but I still wouldn't believe that he breaks out the Knussen on a weekly, or monthly, basis.
[ snip ]
It is technically true that I have not listened to
Le Baiser de la fée on a weekly, or even a monthly, basis; from that standpoint, your disbelief is vindicated. But that is an accident of my schedule and listening habits, not any reflection on the piece.
So I state my surety that I
can listen to the complete ballet, at least once weekly; and to that end, I do undertake to fulfill that requirement, beginning today.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 06:57:02 AM
Le Baiser de la Fee
As much as I want to be the PerfectConsumerist, I just don't think I can sit through 50mins. of faux-Tchaikovsky, frankly somewhat boring ballet music,... sorry,...
It's not faux-Tchaikovsky, it's actual Tchaikovsky run through the Igorizer a few times, and as someone who enjoys both Romantic and Modern music, the score is a delight. It's lean and energetic and just slightly sentimental. What is there to dislike?
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2017, 07:38:52 AM
...all I can say is I enjoy the work and don't find it 'boring' at all.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 08:32:29 AM
So I state my surety that I can listen to the complete ballet, at least once weekly
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 09, 2017, 08:53:14 AM
the score is a delight. It's lean and energetic and just slightly sentimental. What is there to dislike?
I agree with you three gentlemen. snyprrr is, of course, completely bonkers ;D
Sarge
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 09, 2017, 09:14:19 AM
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\
Audio only: I would suggest Bernstein.
But at some point you should see this
[asin]B0000714CM[/asin]
Where it is danced in Nijinska's choreography. And contains a bonus with members of the original Nijinska production talking about how horrible and humorous it was to work under her.
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 09, 2017, 09:14:19 AM
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\
Someone above indicated the Reuss on HarmoniaMundi.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2017, 08:58:38 AM
I agree with you three gentlemen. snyprrr is, of course, completely bonkers ;D
Sarge
HA!! I was just testing you all to see if I could weed out any Unbelievers in the Thread ;) carry on :P
There's no way I can get around the Boulez Box DG... for the last two discs... biting the bullet on this one... can I get it SUPER Cheap?? $23 is the lowest I see (incl sh)
I CAN SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL!! 0:)
Now it's just a matter of $$$ $$$ $$$
:'( :'( :'(
Music for Piano and Orchestra
Entremont/Rosen CBS/SONY
Beroff EMI
Crossley SONY
Mustonen Decca
Bavouzet Hyperion
Donohoe Chandos
Gorlatch SONY
I just realized that Salonen/SONY is a shade muffled compared to the first two, which have their own recording issues. The Ashkenazy/Decca set with Mustonen boasts much clearer sound, but newcomer Alexei Gorlatch/SONY seems he might have the best sound of all. I can only hear samples, does anyone have the scoop on this 2015 release?
He neglects the 'Movements', but adds the early Sonata for Piano. The sound for the solo piano work is pretty crisp and clean, I sure hope someone's got the skinny...
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 11:56:44 AM
There's no way I can get around the Boulez Box DG... for the last two discs... biting the bullet on this one... can I get it SUPER Cheap?? $23 is the lowest I see (incl sh)
I CAN SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL!! 0:)
Now it's just a matter of $$$ $$$ $$$
:'( :'( :'(
You know you want to... >:D
[asin]B013FFSG7U[/asin]
Symphony of Psalms Symphony in C Symphony in 3 Movements
X X X Jarvi-Suisse Romande (SEPARATE)
X X X Craft-St.Luke?? (SEPARATE)
X X X STRAVINSKY/CBS
X X Colin Davis-LSO
X X Colin Davis-Bavarian Radio
X X Bernstein-Israel
X X Dutoit-Suisse Romande
X X Ashkenazy
X X X Solti-Chicago
X X X Gielen(Hanssler)
X X X TilsonThomas-LSO
X X Boulez-Berlin
X X X Rattle-Berlin
X Karajan-Berlin
X Rattle-Birmingham
X Salonen-Philharmonia
X X Maazel(RCA)
X Conlon(eRATO)
What of import have I missed?
Honestly, Igor's still stacks up, eh? I just chose the Rattle as a "fussy" alternative (Boulez I'll have by default).
I believe that Karajan reigns supreme in the "C",- with many failing here over a weak oboe (not so with ANY Berlin recording, of course, lol!!). All the Suisse Romande recordings (Ansermet,Dutoit,Jarvi) all have a weak oboe in the "C". Davis/LSO is biting, but has the weakest oboe of all. Solti's player is almost up to Berlin standards, as is MTT's.
As far as "taking it too slow" in the opening of "3 Mvmts", only Davis/LSO, Salonen, Rattle/Birmingham, and a few others don't- this mvmt shouldn't last but 9mins.- at 10mins. we start to hear the clunk in the opening.
Jarvi can be good, but is always let down by the cavernous Chandos recordings.
Rattle IS "fussy", but, that actually aids in studying- and you have to have the Berliners, Between Rattle and Boulez, I might have to go with Maazel's more vibrant recording and human sounding performance (in 'Psalms' and '3Mvmts').
Colin Davis/LSO has the most power and awe, but the LSO isn't Berlin, though they are very good. I haven't heard anything good from Davis's Philips remake.
Bernstein... not so much...
MTT... eh... mm.... it's okaaay... rather have Berlin...
eh
meh
,,,
Quote from: North Star on March 09, 2017, 12:07:30 PM
You know you want to... >:D
[asin]B013FFSG7U[/asin]
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! :laugh:
Yes, it has a good portion of FirstChoices, but a) it has more than I want, and, b) I'm way too picky... I certainly wouldn't want Ashkenazy in the 2 Symphonies, and so forth... and, a lot of these recordings are already in a cheap guise... I went over this last night and calculated the cost of surgically getting what I wanted out of it...
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 09, 2017, 09:33:05 AM
Audio only: I would suggest Bernstein.
This is curiously synchronous with today's arrival of the
Chung CD; but that DG CD with
Les noces and the
Mass was another of the first 25 CDs I bought. I remember the afternoon that I listened to it. I mean, I can remember myself listening to the disc, I'm not saying I remember how it sounded, really. I remember that I didn't care for the piece (!) but you know what? I didn't care for the
Shostakovich Fourth the first time, at the same period in my life and under similar circs.
Now, of course, (a) I love the piece, and (b) the very rare musical quarrel notwithstanding, I've become a huge
Lenny fan. So: yes, time to give this recording a fresh shot.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 12:46:46 PM
This is curiously synchronous with today's arrival of the Chung CD; but that DG CD with Les noces and the Mass was another of the first 25 CDs I bought. I remember the afternoon that I listened to it. I mean, I can remember myself listening to the disc, I'm not saying I remember how it sounded, really. I remember that I didn't care for the piece (!) but you know what? I didn't care for the Shostakovich Fourth the first time, at the same period in my life and under similar circa.
Now, of course, (a) I love the piece, and (b) the very rare musical quarrel notwithstanding, I've become a huge Lenny fan. So: yes, time to give this recording a fresh shot.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
What about MY needs?? >:D
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 12:02:44 PM
Music for Piano and Orchestra
Entremont/Rosen CBS/SONY
Beroff EMI
Crossley SONY
Mustonen Decca
Bavouzet Hyperion
Donohoe Chandos
Gorlatch SONY
I just realized that Salonen/SONY is a shade muffled compared to the first two, which have their own recording issues. The Ashkenazy/Decca set with Mustonen boasts much clearer sound, but newcomer Alexei Gorlatch/SONY seems he might have the best sound of all. I can only hear samples, does anyone have the scoop on this 2015 release?
He neglects the 'Movements', but adds the early Sonata for Piano. The sound for the solo piano work is pretty crisp and clean, I sure hope someone's got the skinny...
Added the Hyperion and Chandos issues... now we have seven somewhat fullish cycles...I already mention my issue with Salonen's sonics... anyone?
You ought to look into the Columbia/Sony box, the Iggy Fyvich conducts Iggy Fyvich set that I currently am going through.
The sonics are not always the best, but Igor's conducting more than makes up for it. It's got the Rosen/Entremont recordings.
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
At about $1 per CD it ought to be in your budget.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 09, 2017, 04:48:59 PM
You ought to look into the Columbia/Sony box, the Iggy Fyvich conducts Iggy Fyvich set that I currently am going through.
The sonics are not always the best, but Igor's conducting more than makes up for it. It's got the Rosen/Entremont recordings.
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
At about $1 per CD it ought to be in your budget.
I'm just not a BigBox kinda guy :-\
I have seen the component boxes from the early 90s, I have Vol.11 'Sacred Works', and of course the 3 Symphonies. But, for instance, the 'Concertos' set, mm, Stern, no thanks, and though the Entremont performances were nice, the reverb was blowin me away.
And I'm not all that... hrmm, ... big on Opera... so, all these BigBoxes just have to much "I'm not ready for"... though, I here his 'Rake' is still the best... I know I'm having trouble beating the 3 Symphonies...
But, one cannot deny Dutoit, Boulez, Chailly, and a host of others, Rattle, Maazel, Colin Davis, Knussen, Craft, ...and the fact that each comes with its own sonics... I don't think I could deal with ALL Columbia recordings, with that... vintage... sound,... good as it may be here and there...
For the Boulez DG Box, I'm only interested in 2.5 out of 6. I really don't want his DG Sacre-Fire-Petrshka IN MY PRESENCE!!!! But, such are the slings and arrows....
But, both the SONY and DG Boxes are beyond the scope of my endeavors- I'm an egalitarian at heart 0:)- I want all the worthies represented, if possible...
now, enough about me :laugh:
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 05:17:18 PM
I'm just not a BigBox kinda guy
It's less than two inches deep.
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 09, 2017, 09:14:19 AM
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\
I'm not a great admirer of
Les noces as many are here, but Bernstein's performance on DG is extremely impressive.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 09, 2017, 04:48:59 PM
You ought to look into the Columbia/Sony box, the Iggy Fyvich conducts Iggy Fyvich set that I currently am going through.
The sonics are not always the best, but Igor's conducting more than makes up for it. It's got the Rosen/Entremont recordings.
[asin]B000PTYUQG[/asin]
At about $1 per CD it ought to be in your budget.
I fully agree.
But: I have two very vehement complaints about
what is not in this set.1.) Absent from the box set is the 1965—Columbia Masterworks
Les Noces conducted by Robert Craft as "supervised by the composer." Soloists for "Les Noces" were: Mildred Allen (soprano), Adrienne Albert (mezzo- soprano), Jack Litten (tenor) and William Metcalfe (bass); the choir is the Ithaca College Concert Choir under the direction of Gregg Smith, with the Columbia Percussion Ensemble. [Columbia Masterworks MS 6991/mono ML 6391] It is sung
in Russian. IMO, this
Les Noces is still the best one out there. Sadly, I believe it is out of print :-(
(If memory serves, the box set includes that ghastly disastrous Bernstein recording with its line up of four all-star pianist-composers at the pianos (Aaron Copland, Lukas Foss, Roger Sessions, etc.), and it was sung --
egads! in English. Simply dreadful; avoid at all costs.)
2.) The
Petrushka in the box set
is not the recording issued when the original series was being released one at a time! The box set rendition is the 1911 version, from an earlier recording with a Hollywood orchestra. The original series release was the
revised version in a truly sparkling, highly animated and far superior performance (truly much improved over the original, while minus the 1911 double woodwind sections; the revision is clarified, the piano part much extended.) I'm a thinkin' that once the composer was dead, Columbia used the 1911 version in the box set to avoid paying royalties, the earlier Russian version having no copyright. :-/
Concerto per due pianoforti soli: Understandably, Columbia went 'archive document' on this one, with the composer and his son, Soulima, the pianists. To me, the best recording (also with the composer having been consulted by the pianists) is on Nonesuch, with Ursula Oppens and Paul Jacobs.
https://www.discogs.com/Igor-Stravinsky-Paul-Jacobs-3-Ursula-Oppens-Music-For-Two-Pianos-Piano-Four-Hands/release/2872741
Stravinsky directed these pianists to end the final movement on the penultimate chord in the score, at that time deeming the ultimate resolution in the original (still unrevised in currently available scores) as unnecessary (a very 20th century musicological authoritative documentation of a revision -- on the liner notes of a recording.)
Stravinsky was not, earlier, a great conductor. By the time he was eighty, when he made these recordings for Columbia, he was, at least for his own works, a fine and great conductor, who knew exactly the sound he wanted, and he got it from the players.
The later serial works, however, are often less than great performances due to the players lack of general familiarity with the style and vocabulary, and probably not a great deal of rehearsal time.
The greater body of recordings in that set, all the earlier works, the neoclassical works, are more than fine. No other recordings so consistently get the perfect tempi, articulation and balance of parts sounding the harmonies as do the Stravinsky-Columbia recordings from the 60's. It is a lot of music, wonderfully performed, and a helluva bargain.
M. Croche is giving you pearls, here, snypsss 0:)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
What about MY needs?? >:D
Well, I am aware that I have not yet shared my own preferred recordings of
Свадебка. Are you still entertaining the question? 8)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 09, 2017, 07:03:20 PM
(If memory serves, the box set includes that ghastly disastrous Bernstein recording with its line up of four all-star pianist-composers at the pianos (Aaron Copland, Lukas Foss, Roger Sessions, etc.), and it was sung -- egads! in English.
The fourth pianist is
Samuel Barber. I agree that it is not
the performance to be recommended . . . but I do enjoy having an alternative in the vernacular. Happy to consider the fact that, in a qualified sense, I enjoy this account of the piece, something of an eccentricity on my part.
$:)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 06:08:05 PM
It's less than two inches deep.
For scale (this is a normal 10-oz. coffee mug)
Everything in the box I posted is conducted either by Stravinksy himself or Craft under Stravinsky's supervision. Which is why I keep calling it the Igor conducts Igor box.
The Les Noces does contain the four famous composers as pianists, but the sound is very muddy, which is the main reason I wouldn't recommend it. So muddy in fact that now that you mention it, I can't be entirely sure that it was sung in Russian and not English. But I think it was Russian....
I am not at home just now. I will update with any necessary information when I'm home tonight.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 04:28:48 AM
For scale (this is a normal 10-oz. coffee mug)
Correction: The
Igor Conducts Igor box is 2⅛" deep.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 10, 2017, 10:41:04 AM
The Les Noces does contain the four famous composers as pianists, but the sound is very muddy, which is the main reason I wouldn't recommend it. So muddy in fact that now that you mention it, I can't be entirely sure that it was sung in Russian and not English. But I think it was Russian....
Confirming that it is English, but between the sound and the angularity of the setting, I do not fault you, friend.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 10:46:53 AM
Correction: The Igor Conducts Igor box is 2⅛" deep.
Confirming that it is English, but between the sound and the angularity of the setting, I do not fault you, friend.
Thank you.
It is perhaps a Stravinsky thing: I commented on the idiosyncratic setting of the Hebrew text in Abraham and Isaac the other night: and indeed, I had to concentrate at the beginning of the piece before I could be quite sure it was Hebrew, and not Russian.
Although there are works like the Lord's Prayer, Credo & especially the Bogoroditse Dyevo which plug more into the Russian Orthodox choral style tradition, and are quite "grateful" for the voices, in many cases, it was his trademark to write for the voice as if it were . . . an instrument. (I mean, the voice is an instrument, but you get me.)
M. Croche's dissatisfaction with this performance of the ballet is underscored by the near-oddity of the English when the groom addresses the bride at the end, and the inadequate sound of the bright, brittle chords.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 11:06:02 AM
Although there are works like the Lord's Prayer, Credo & especially the Bogoroditse Dyevo which plug more into the Russian Orthodox choral style tradition, and are quite "grateful" for the voices, in many cases, it was his trademark to write for the voice as if it were . . . an instrument. (I mean, the voice is an instrument, but you get me.)
I maintain that
Anthem: The Dove Descending is the best a capella music by a composer who professed to despise a capella singing. It's also the most mellifluous of his 12-tone works, a subtle and beautiful little gem of a piece.
https://www.youtube.com/v/YnBNG9qu8E0
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 02:45:52 AM
Well, I am aware that I have not yet shared my own preferred recordings of Свадебка. Are you still entertaining the question? 8)
whatever that was... sure ::)
LOL, you people and the "join us, join us" at the BigBoxClub... I'M MAKING MY OWN BOX!!
Maazel... Best Overall Symphony of Psalms... BAM!! 8)
Vengerov... Best Violin Concerto... ZAAP!! POW!! :blank:
Karajan... Best Symphony in C... OH NO HE DIDN'T!! :o
Read 'em an' weep... there's a new sheriff in town, and he's cracking down hard on all BigBoxes... smoke 'em if ya got'em. $:)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 01:08:58 AM
M. Croche is giving you pearls, here, snypsss 0:)
I will not partake of those blood cakes you offer!!
Just tryin to saddle me with a bunch of Opera!! >:D Be happy I liked 'Renard' ;) ;D :D :laugh: :P
btw- which one of you is SantaFeListener?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2017, 07:36:31 AM
Easy: forget the complete ballet and just buy the Divertimento.
Sarge
Divertimento for Violin & Piano
I realized I had this (Mustonen/vanKeulen-Philips), and took it to work. I was quite pleased by this, but I must also lay credit at the feet of the performers and the engineers. Everything here screams "White Music", so clean and articulate and precise is the rendering. The music itself practically mattered not, the sheer sound of timbres was reward enough. I was actually surprised, and the music was involved enough, all I heard were the shapes and the sounds, and the oh so white backdrop- perfect Neo-Classicism on display! I might prefer this version to the Orchestral.
So, I have assuaged my need for Knussen at the moment, which is a good thing for rent and gas! ;)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 10, 2017, 10:41:04 AM
Everything in the box I posted is conducted either by Stravinksy himself or Craft under Stravinsky's supervision. Which is why I keep calling it the Igor conducts Igor box.
The Les Noces does contain the four famous composers as pianists, but the sound is very muddy, which is the main reason I wouldn't recommend it. So muddy in fact that now that you mention it, I can't be entirely sure that it was sung in Russian and not English. But I think it was Russian....
I am not at home just now. I will update with any necessary information when I'm home tonight.
Now that I am home:
My set does have Petrushka in the 1911 version. It was recorded in Hollywood, CA,1961, the orchestra being credited as the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
But it does strike me that Stravinsky chose to record the 1911 version fourteen years after the 1947 revision. Perhaps he did not feel the revision was so clearly superior as M. Crioche does? (The Firebird Suite, by contrast, recorded six years later, is the 1945 revised version.)
Symphonie
I have never heard it. Should i probably wait until the current wave of stuff passes? I'm thinking I'll use it as an after-dinner mint to cleanse the palate after this massive binge. I'm guessing it should be pretty cool, but I don't want to foster expectations...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 11:09:15 AM
M. Croche's dissatisfaction with this performance of the ballet is underscored by the near-oddity of the English when the groom addresses the bride at the end, and the inadequate sound of the bright, brittle chords.
Surprisingly, the French tranlastion by
C.-F. Ramuz (quoted by
Jean Cocteau in the first volume of his diaries--
Le passé défini--and recorded AFAIK only by
Boulez , in an almost impossible to find Adès CD) is quite effective and beautiful.
«
J'étais loin sur la mer immense.
La demoiselle blanche s'y baignait,
dedans lavait sa robe blanche, sa robe du dimanche.»
The curious fact is that the only other recording of
Les noces conducted by the composer (made in London in the 30s for HMV) is in English as well. I've never heard it, and am not really incined to do so... ::)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 02:43:12 PM
Symphonie
I have never heard it. Should i probably wait until the current wave of stuff passes? I'm thinking I'll use it as an after-dinner mint to cleanse the palate after this massive binge. I'm guessing it should be pretty cool, but I don't want to foster expectations...
You mean the Symphony in E-flat? I think you're confusing it with the Sonata in F# minor, which predates it by a few years.
The early symphony is a decent enough work in the vein of Tchaikovsky and Glazunov, but doesn't contain much that presages the Stravinsky to come. The scherzo strikes me as the best movement overall.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 11:06:02 AM
Although there are works like the Lord's Prayer, Credo & especially the Bogoroditse Dyevo which plug more into the Russian Orthodox choral style tradition, and are quite "grateful" for the voices, in many cases, it was his trademark to write for the voice as if it were . . . an instrument. (I mean, the voice is an instrument, but you get me.)
Come to think of it...isn't that a charge levelled against Beethoven?
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 10, 2017, 03:02:24 PM
You mean the Symphony in E-flat?
The scherzo strikes me as the best movement overall.
That's what they say about Glazunov!
Yea, I was hoping for something long and rambly, perhaps, boring, just something old-timey, lol... like I said, I'm going to have to use it as a carrot for the Wrap Party! I'm certainly not expecting things, but I'm sure I'll still be disappointed, lol- I remember having to get really drunk to be able to act like I liked some Tchaikovsky... Glazunov's the one who scares me ???
I've really learned a lot about IgStra in the last few weeks (you can trace my OriginalPost... I mean,...), such as his procedures, how he puts blocks together,... since I am coming late to it this go round, I keep thinking he sounds like Copland and Martinu, but, of course, it's the other way round. But IgStra's works are as chiseled out as Schoenberg's, Webern,- all had relatively short lists, so they compliment one another. Schoenberg's Piano Concerto can simply be looked upon as his 'Concerto in D', or the corresponding Martinu work. Is it IgStra I also hear in Ibert?
The Composers directly influenced by him are specific, no? Copland seems like a mirror image at this point.
But, I don't want to be boring with the obvious- I know I've already bloated the Thread with my droppings- I WILL be guiding past 1000 Posts... I will... so, we might as well have fun for the nest week. :-\
I'm putting on the retro brakes to stave off burnout... I just dumped my paycheck into the Igor trust, lol- I think I have now one version of everything, Operas excluded, Opp. 1-4 excluded, Renard & Noces excluded, Player Piano excluded, and maybe a suite or two... but, I have made sense of Igor to myself, especially 1913-1919 and 1923-1939.
The snyprrr Complete Stravinsky Box will be available shortly
oCteT (1922-23)
I don't get it. Or, it's "just another funny French piece" inspired by... "Satie". I guess it's just that it doesn't sound like Nielsen or Taffanel or D'Indy (speaking wind music), it was "new" in the way he put the piece together,- and I've been able to see how his way of Composing a Movement is different than typical Sonata Allegro. Is that what I'm supposed to "get".? Le Satie, oui oui, he he he, Pepe le Pew!
I mean, I find it pleasant enough- maybe I'm raking myself trying to find the Hidden Mystery behind it when all it is is a 10min Ceremonial Fanfare?
We can add the SoWI, but, that's an easier piece to like; this one just... is. They say it's the first Cubist work of Music?
I can see and hear how his music is Piano based, how he sat at the Piano and wrote. Same with Copland. Varese?
Anyone write a "Stravinsky Cello Concerto"? Or, what are the top works that are modeled after, or sound like, IgStra?
Quote from: ritter on March 10, 2017, 02:58:58 PM
Surprisingly, the French tranlastion by C.-F. Ramuz (quoted by Jean Cocteau in the first volume of his diaries--Le passé défini--and recorded AFAIK only by Boulez , in an almost impossible to find Adès CD) is quite effective and beautiful.
«J'étais loin sur la mer immense.
La demoiselle blanche s'y baignait,
dedans lavait sa robe blanche, sa robe du dimanche.»
Ansermet recording is also in French, I think.
Quote from: Draško on March 11, 2017, 01:32:01 AM
Ansermet recording is also in French, I think.
Good to know,
Draško. Thanks for pointing that one out. This will be an easier way to listen to the
Ramuz translation for those interested, as I suppose the
Ansermet is more readily available than the
Boulez. I myself, nevertheless, find less to enjoy in Ansermet's conducting as years go by ::)(even if I do not know this particular recording).
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 10, 2017, 03:41:15 PM
Come to think of it...isn't that a charge levelled against Beethoven?
Aye, though possibly it sticks more in that case 0:)
After a performance of the
Missa solemnis, the chorus are really wiped out, feeling as if they've been in a Marathon. All in all, my impression is that singers come out of a performance of the
Symphony of Psalms feeling better about life.
Свадебка is something a bit else, but arguably you're fielding an ensemble of soloists, rather than (say) the
Atlanta Symphony Chorus. (I say that, and now I wonder if
Robt Shaw conducted the piece . . . which in turn has me wondering if he did it
en anglais, aussi.)
Quote from: ritter on March 10, 2017, 02:58:58 PM
Surprisingly, the French tranlastion by C.-F. Ramuz (quoted by Jean Cocteau in the first volume of his diaries--Le passé défini--and recorded AFAIK only by Boulez , in an almost impossible to find Adès CD) is quite effective and beautiful.
«J'étais loin sur la mer immense.
La demoiselle blanche s'y baignait,
dedans lavait sa robe blanche, sa robe du dimanche.»
Très intéressant!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 12:50:33 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 02:45:52 AM
Well, I am aware that I have not yet shared my own preferred recordings of Свадебка. Are you still entertaining the question? 8)
whatever that was... sure ::)
Probably my two favorite recordings are
Craft's:
[asin]B000675OGM[/asin]
And
James Wood leading the joined
New London and
Voronezh Chamber Choirs:
[asin]B00GJ6NQIC[/asin]
In the tally of the present discussion, add the footnotes that I need to revisit
Lenny, and I have yet to settle down to listen to the
Eötvös.
Cross-post from WAYLtQuote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2017, 04:28:02 AM
Игорь Фëдорович [ Igor Fyodorovich (Stravinsky) ]
Свадебка (Les noces), 1917 version
Eötvös
"Even" in this proto-version, a masterpiece and a landmark. Of course, in the final version, it is yet more strikingly original and incisive. Once I got past how odd it is to hear (e.g.) woodwinds in this piece, the score strikes a delicious balance between feeling like a natural sequel to
Le sacre, yet nevertheless creating its own sonic space (no less, that is, than in the final scoring). The final page of the score (the groom's tender address) is, I might say, equally touching, while harking a little back (or,
forward, really, given the chronology) to the
Symphonies d'instruments à vent. In short, this is not an item only for
Stravinsky nerds (unless one feels that
the piece itself is reserved unto them), but — not that this is at all likely — a version of the piece fully worth programming.
Ah, another Stravinsky Day dawns... now it's just a matter of waiting for the mailman :(. Will my mania outlast the postal service's legendary delivery times? gulp
l'Historie du Soldat
Surely I've listened to it at some point, how else would I know this is something I don't want? Huh. All I have is the Clarinet Trio, which I begrudgingly listened to today (Ashkenazy/Decca). Well, hmm, it's got some quite busy sections, I was thinking Ives at one point. The music itself didn't do all that much for me, though I started finding the noisiness endearing. And for a Clarinet Trio, I was taken aback by the noisiness, but, again, that is what was drawing me in, the complexity of the textures.
I suppose the expanded version is due for a hearing. I will have Boulez (not arrived), but for some reason I already have preconceived notions that he's not the right one for this piece. Does the extended version come with and without "vocals"?
I can appreciate the "downhome, lowdown" swampy, jazzy ("American") appeal. The Ashkenazy version had no "jazz" I could discern, so I'm not sure what kind of rendition I was listening to. I have been curiously surprised by IS's "busy phase" which seems to include only 'Le Chant du Rossignol' and this piece. Then, it's off to 'White Music' city.
What's it all about Iggy?
Narration and dialogue, typically, yes. Sometimes, Peter and the Wolf-like, there is a textless recording. (I have an idea that I have one such recording, but do I remember which? Nnnooo.)
I love every note of this score, but of course (as I have probably mentioned) I played the Soldier in a college staging of the piece at Wooster; and we studied it in a Stravinsky seminar at UVa. So, I have most pleasant history with it.
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2017, 11:12:06 AM
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard Boulez fan (no news there ;) ), I've never warmed to that recording, which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.
Regards,
Cheers,
Rafael! Although I have not yet started in on the
Pulcinella, this
Boulez/
CSO account of the
Symphony in Three Movements is exquisite, so I owe you great thanks already 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 04:45:46 AM
Cheers, Rafael! Although I have not yet started in on the Pulcinella, this Boulez/CSO account of the Symphony in Three Movements is exquisite, so I owe you great thanks already 8)
My pleasure,
Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of
Pulcinella, once you've heard it.
Boulez may have stated his dislike for neo-classical or, more prceisely, "middle-period"
Stravinsky, but made some exceptions:
Pulcienlla (of which he wrote glowingly and gave a great performance in this wondedrful CSO CD), the
Symphony in three movements (which he recorded twice),
Dumbarton Oaks... But unfortunately, no
Scènes de Ballet :laugh: .
The composer himself joked about that: "
He [Rimsky] looked at me as Boulez might if I had suggested playing my Scènes de Ballet
at Darmstadt"
Quote from: ritter on March 13, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.
Boulez may have stated his dislike for neo-classical or, more prceisely, "middle-period" Stravinsky, but made some exceptions: Pulcienlla (of which he wrote glowingly and gave a great performance in this wondedrful CSO CD), the Symphony in three movements (which he recorded twice), Dumbarton Oaks... But unfortunately, no Scènes de Ballet :laugh: .
The composer himself joked about that: "He [Rimsky] looked at me as Boulez might if I had suggested playing my Scènes de balllet at Darmstadt"
He did a fine Ebony Concerto too, with the EI. Boulez picked and chose somewhat at random from Stravinsky's middle period. I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 13, 2017, 07:45:33 AM
I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.
A classic! :laugh: Similar to "Bernini of the suburbs" he used for the
Turangalîla...
Boulez could be very witty when nasty! ;)
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 13, 2017, 07:45:33 AM
He did a fine Ebony Concerto too, with the EI. Boulez picked and chose somewhat at random from Stravinsky's middle period. I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.
He seems to have used the phrase more than once, and as a criticism of an entire period
QuoteIf I look in the period between the two Wars in France or in Europe generally, there was a marvelous period before the First World War. In 1910, 1915, 1917, 1918, there were a lot of discoveries in all fields, especially in music. There were some great works, and then after in this period of Two Wars, there was a tendency to be so-called classical, and then lots of people wanted to be historically classical. When you see that now, you see it's just fake. That's like a plastic Greek temple, for instance, and that does not fit at all. History has been very quick to look at that in a very severe way, and to make this period before and during the First World War a really very, very strong period in inventiveness and creativity. Then the period in between was like something which is really tired and not interesting, short of ideas and trying to fulfill an ideal which was very artificial and uninteresting.
---http://www.bruceduffie.com/boulez.html
Quote from: ritter on March 13, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.
At once more "in line" with a typical interpretation (and thus, as we've discussed, already at variance with the
Ensemble InterContemporain & al. performance), yet still distinctive in many details, and crystal-clear.
Thanks again for the suggestion!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2017, 03:32:36 AM
Probably my two favorite recordings are Craft's:
[asin]B000675OGM[/asin]
And James Wood leading the joined New London and Voronezh Chamber Choirs:
[asin]B00GJ6NQIC[/asin]
In the tally of the present discussion, add the footnotes that I need to revisit Lenny, and I have yet to settle down to listen to the Eötvös.
I hang my head in shame, for having forgot that I also have the
Ančerl:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515rViFNgYL.jpg)
I don't like having omitted it, but I also want to re-listen before telling
snypsss he must, must, must purchase 0:)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 09, 2017, 09:33:05 AM
Audio only: I would suggest Bernstein.
You're absolutely right,
Jeffrey; this is smashing & exuberant.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 11:23:40 AM
You're absolutely right, Jeffrey; this is smashing & exuberant.
Breathes sigh of relief...
I'm really settling into this thing now, and a snowstorm is the perfect opportunity to delve into austere works such as the Septet (1953). I try looking at it as a 'Septet' proper, and as such I place it firmly in the context of Tradition. By my reckoning, we have our Nonet by Martinu, our Octet by Hindemith, and our Septet by Stravinsky as our Modern bearers of the Tradition. And, because they are all 'Late Works', and written at a time when most all Composers' languages were becoming pricklier, these are great examples of how this generation of Composers continued the Tradition which nurtured them. The Hindemith, and the Stravinsky in particular, are tough and roughly rugged works, bristling with "difficulty" on the ear, coupled with memorable melodies and moments of repose.
The Sravinsky recording of his Septet is so of a time, and is played perfectly understated. It smells like a snowstorm in D.C.
What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence? I know we have Varese, but I'm thinking more of the Gay Paris stuff,... or,... I mean, is it Mossolov and Antheil, or more just like Auric,... ??... anyone?...
I know by 1939-50, most Composers were writing their Big Neo-Classic Works: Stravinsky, DSCH, Hindemith, on down the line, all writing Big Symphonies and such, no time for Gay Paris then!
So, I'm thinking that heyday, that seems to peak
a) early 20s, 1919-1924/5
b) seems to peak @1928-32
c) resurgence @1936-7?
and then, boom!, it all turns into Big Symphonies for the war. Anyone help out here?
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 13, 2017, 11:52:40 AM
Breathes sigh of relief...
Me, too. I mean, I was (now) fully prepared to have ears for it. A little disappointed that, back when I first owned the disc, I just didn't hear it. But I'm lovin' it now, which is what matters.
Must revisit the
Ančerl ....
Quote from: snyprrr on March 13, 2017, 02:45:04 PM
What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence?
Interesting question. There's a whole English strand - Bliss, Walton, Berners, even Tippett sometimes (the 2nd Symphony).
And the
Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 09:49:26 AM
I hang my head in shame, for having forgot that I also have the Ančerl:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515rViFNgYL.jpg)
I don't like having omitted it, but I also want to re-listen before telling snypsss he must, must, must purchase 0:)
Thanks for the suggestions for recordings of Les Noces. I must admit I'm not a Bernstein admirer. Although,each to his own! His recordings of American music,aside.. I think I'd go for Craft;and Ancerl is usually very good. The hyperion could be another choice?
Quote from: DaveF on March 14, 2017, 11:16:49 AM
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.
American music in general is heavily saturated with Stravinsky influence. The American 12-tone composers, for example, didn't just draw on Schoenberg and Webern, but also on the rhythms of Stravinsky.
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 14, 2017, 12:23:36 PM
Thanks for the suggestions for recordings of Les Noces. I must admit I'm not a Bernstein admirer. Although,each to his own! His recordings of American music,aside.. I think I'd go for Craft;and Ancerl is usually very good. The hyperion could be another choice?
Do you mean this 'un?—
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2017, 03:32:36 AM
. . . James Wood leading the joined New London and Voronezh Chamber Choirs:
[asin]B00GJ6NQIC[/asin]
I do like it very much. (Or am I confused about Helios being a subset of Hyperion?)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 14, 2017, 01:33:47 PM
Do you mean this 'un?—
I do like it very much. (Or am I confused about Helios being a subset of Hyperion?)
Just a reissue moniker, like Redline, Exelsioire by Atragon...a reissue with a twist :-* (it's delicious!)
Just received Abbado 'Pulcinella/Jeu de Cartes'... oooo, what a heavy little jewel case it is, buhttp://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/kiss.gifget label (Galleria = Helios)
I LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MY CURSOR JUST DID?????
anyhow...
Abbado 'Pulcinella/Jeu de Cartes'... I don't know if I'm ready for this right now, I'm kind of stuck on the 'Movements',... Richter's version is by FAR the most Modern sounding, almost sci-fi ennui,... really different feel than most others.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 12:02:44 PM
Music for Piano and Orchestra
Entremont/Rosen CBS/SONY
Beroff EMI
Crossley SONY
Mustonen Decca
Bavouzet Hyperion
Donohoe Chandos
Gorlatch SONY
I just realized that Salonen/SONY is a shade muffled compared to the first two, which have their own recording issues. The Ashkenazy/Decca set with Mustonen boasts much clearer sound, but newcomer Alexei Gorlatch/SONY seems he might have the best sound of all. I can only hear samples, does anyone have the scoop on this 2015 release?
He neglects the 'Movements', but adds the early Sonata for Piano. The sound for the solo piano work is pretty crisp and clean, I sure hope someone's got the skinny...
mOVEMENTSMrs. Weber (Premiere;1959) on YT with Bour
Richter (1961?)
Rosen/ IS (1963?)
Beroff/ Ozawa (1973?)
Crossley/ Salonen (1988)
Mustonen/ Ashkenazy (1995?)
Osborne/ Volkov (2011?)
Bavouzet/ Tortelier (2012?)
I've been scouring for recordings today, listening closely (even 1min samples go a long way in this music!). The most eye opening of all was Richter, who, with his conductor (?) conjure an alien landscape that sounds like the best sci-fi music I've ever heard. No one else makes this music sound like something other than a pure dodecaphonic exercise, albeit, most of these performance have (by necessity) a great artistry. The other two early versions I feel are none-starters simply for the sound, and perhaps some of the orchestral work,... maybe, or not, can't remember.
Beroff seems to get criticism, but I don't know if it's him, or Ozawa, or the recording, that is being criticized. I though his 'Movements' had a very exciting and Modern tone, with a splashy sounding (though perhaps slightly flawed?) recording.
The Crossley and Mustonen rivalry has been the one going for some time, but, for no other reason than SONY's sound for Salonen seems to be missing the very high end, and/or, the piano image can get obscured by the orchestra, Mustonen must win by default. (SantaFe Listener points this out too) I like Mustonen's hyper-refined fingers, and, the more I listen to the newer takes, he still comes away many times with the clarity, and the zippiness. The Decca sound for Ashkenazy is typical, so, it is very very good, more polite than the SONY, but you hear everything very nicely, at a slight recess, but with just attack.
As far as the playing, Crossley/Salonen seems more... ardent?...passionate?...Mustonen/Ashkenazy are perhaps more... laboratory and athletic? Crossley takes the 1st the slowest of all, but, when one looks at the timings for most, they all fall around the same bracket, even though most "sound" much faster than Crossley. Mustonen has a very pointallistic touch, which he uses to advantage in the 2nd "cimbalom" sounding section.
So then we more along and Osborne and Bavouzet both come out practically together. This has aided is getting reviews, though, honestly, not many reviewers have more than one other version, usually Salonen. Though both of these new versions sound much more perfectly than any before, they don't necessarily stand so very much higher. Osborne and Volkov are given a drier (though ample) styled Hyperion treatment (which sounds like Chandos to me); the Chandos seems a little more alive. Reviewers seemed to marginally favour the Chandos as generally livelier in all departments. In the 'Movements', Osborne really yields nothing to Bavouzet, though, the latter's backdrop is heard to better effect. In all, Bavouzet/Tortelier, and Mustonen/Ashkenazy seem to have the best sound, and even though the Chandos is "super modern" sound, the Decca mid-90s sound is everything one might expect from a good Decca/Ashkenazy deal (which I usually rate quite highly, sound wise).
None of the four Digital versions deliver any kind of individual performance like the Richter, but, they all try very hard to get everything right, and, so, sound can make a difference here. Though the attenuation on the SONY is at its least in the 'Movements', when one compares the detail of the Decca one can still hear how the SONY recording (though, technically very very good in all other respects) seems to obscure detail (almost reminds me of some Virgin recordings, "dry and fluffy" I call it).
One of the main luxury issues with all these releases is that 'Complete Music for Piano and Orchestra' is less than 50mins., and all the releases have differing fill-ups, most of which, frankly, make no sense to me. I'd rather have the solo piano pieces, rather than the 'Volga Boatman', or the 'Ebony' Concerto,... or 'Petrushka' for that matter (oy vey- that's taking "Complete" a bit far, no?).
Frankly, I look towards a Knussen driven 'Movements', maybe with Alan Feinberg? hmmm...
Quote from: snyprrr on March 13, 2017, 02:45:04 PM
What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence? I know we have Varese, but I'm thinking more of the Gay Paris stuff,... or,... I mean, is it Mossolov and Antheil, or more just like Auric,... ??... anyone?...
I know by 1939-50, most Composers were writing their Big Neo-Classic Works: Stravinsky, DSCH, Hindemith, on down the line, all writing Big Symphonies and such, no time for Gay Paris then!
So, I'm thinking that heyday, that seems to peak
a) early 20s, 1919-1924/5
b) seems to peak @1928-32
c) resurgence @1936-7?
and then, boom!, it all turns into Big Symphonies for the war. Anyone help out here?
The Boston School group of composers (at Harvard):
Arthur Berger, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland,
Irving Fine,
Lukas Foss, and
Harold Shapero were all strongly influenced by Stravinsky's neoclassical style and that 'more French' sensibility and aesthetic, in which Nadia Boulanger had a hugely influential hand...
N.B. There are some really good and substantial works from each of these composers.
I've cited below almost exclusively those works sounding more or less neoclassical. A number of these composers developed distinctly different vocabularies and styles later, including embracing or partially using -- in their own manner -- serialsm.
Foss ~
Song of Songs 1946
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vstl1bY1Z2k
Capriccio for 'Cello and piano 194
8His later
Symphony No.2, "Symphony of Chorales" 1958 -- a stunning 'big' symphony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1p4Em0hzQ
Irving Fine ~
Music for piano 1947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l0Rxc3MFHA
The Choral New Yorker (1944, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHJcaBmhpJw
Arthur Berger ~
Suite for Piano Four-handshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nov1oSd5z9k
Ideas of Order, for orchestra -- another noteworthy symphonic work. (early to mid-50's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7ZL1Uia7Q
His remarkable tonal and serial
Duo for 'Cello and Pianohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stDVbgriNQY
Harold Shapero ~
Four-Hand Sonata for Piano 1941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSUXx3stiU
There are really fine chamber works from this group of composers as well as some large symphonic works, not all 'big symphonies after the war,' lol. {Large symphonic ensemble works are, generally, the most popular, so the ones you become more aware of than all the rest of these composer's works.)
Stravinsky's ultimate clarification (if not invention) of polychordal harmonies, and especially bi-tonality / polytonality via Petrushka, was undoubtedly seminal and did have a direct influence on the styles of the other European neoclassicists, Milhaud, Honegger, Frank Martin, Martinu, etc. It is difficult to imagine their works as they are if Stravinsky had not set precedents and been so influential. I would to some degree say this influence was 'direct,' while if you listen to any of the Boston school group of composers -- and there are more than just a few fine works from each of them -- or the 'Euro crowd,' it is apparent, as usual, that the 'good ones' we still find interesting and of value were each their own, put their own stamp and sensibility on and into what they wrote.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 14, 2017, 07:18:42 PM
The Boston School group of composers (at Harvard):
Arthur Berger, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Irving Fine, Lukas Foss, and Harold Shapero were all strongly influenced by Stravinsky's neoclassical style and that 'more French' sensibility and aesthetic, in which Nadia Boulanger had a hugely influential hand...
N.B. There are some really good and substantial works from each of these composers.
I've cited below almost exclusively those works sounding more or less neoclassical. A number of these composers developed distinctly different vocabularies and styles later, including embracing or partially using -- in their own manner -- serialsm.
Foss ~ Song of Songs 1946
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vstl1bY1Z2k
Capriccio for 'Cello and piano 1948
His later Symphony No.2, "Symphony of Chorales" 1958 -- a stunning 'big' symphony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1p4Em0hzQ
Irving Fine ~ Music for piano 1947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l0Rxc3MFHA
The Choral New Yorker (1944, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHJcaBmhpJw
Arthur Berger ~ Suite for Piano Four-hands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nov1oSd5z9k
Ideas of Order, for orchestra -- another noteworthy symphonic work. (early to mid-50's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7ZL1Uia7Q
His remarkable tonal and serial Duo for 'Cello and Piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stDVbgriNQY
Harold Shapero ~ Four-Hand Sonata for Piano 1941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSUXx3stiU
There are really fine chamber works from this group of composers as well as some large symphonic works, not all 'big symphonies after the war,' lol. {Large symphonic ensemble works are, generally, the most popular, so the ones you become more aware of then all the rest of these composer's works.)
Stravinsky's ultimate clarification (if not invention) of polychordal harmonies, and especially bi-tonality / polytonality via Petrushka, was undoubtedly seminal and did have a direct influence on the styles of the other European neoclassicists, Milhaud, Honegger, Frank Martin, Martinu, etc. It is difficult to imagine their works as they are if Stravinsky had not set precedents and been so influential. I would to some degree say this influence was 'direct,' while if you listen to any of the Boston school group of composers -- and there are more than just a few fine works from each of them -- or the 'Euro crowd,' it is apparent, as usual, that the 'good ones' we still find interesting and of value were each their own, put their own stamp and sensibility on and into what they wrote.
yes, yes, and, yes :laugh:
Quote from: DaveF on March 14, 2017, 11:16:49 AM
Interesting question. There's a whole English strand - Bliss, Walton, Berners, even Tippett sometimes (the 2nd Symphony).
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.
Yes, I heard that too!
Quote from: DaveF on March 14, 2017, 11:16:49 AMAnd the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.
I think Bruckner and Sibelius beat ol' Igor to the proto-minimialistic punch here. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 15, 2017, 06:47:28 AM
I think Bruckner and Sibelius beat ol' Igor to the proto-minimialistic punch here. ;)
but it becomes very obvious with Igor- ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ...
MI- have you heard Maazel's 'Psalms'?
Any ideas about the Piano+Orch works?
Apollo? (I settle with Dutoit and Chailly, maybe Rattle (I do need modern sound for this one)
Petrushka?- I can't seem to find a "violent" enough version... I'm leaning towards Boulez/SONY, or Dorati/Decca... for some reason this score hasn't grabbed me by the throat- I definitely need an over-the-top blood+guts version
Quote from: snyprrr on March 15, 2017, 06:56:15 AM
Any ideas about the Piano+Orch works?
I need to revisit
Béroff/
Ozawa . . . .
The
Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2017, 06:59:33 AM
I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .
The Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.
a) Can anyone tell me why that Beroff/Ozawa set is so highly maligned? I thought the 'Movements', for instance, didn't embarrass themselves, imo, lol, and the 'Capriccio' starts off with the most drama around- and you can hear the piano!! I dunno- is their "glare" or "hardness, brittleness", or do they suck, or what? what?? sounds ok to me- but now there is so much digital competition for a chiseled work such as 'Movements'.
b) I have the Rattle here, yea, it's nice and dark and big, yet poised- I thought some longeurs? But, yea, either Rattle, Dutoit, or Chailly- must have digital strings for this most refined string work.
c) CAN SOMEONE TELL ME PLEASE- is there one flippin' recording of 'Psalms', BESIDES Igor/CBS, that isn't recorded across the opera house? OY VEY!! I mean, please, bear with me- listen to the opening of CBS, how you can hear all the instruments, even though there is some acoustical space- at the rising semitone, you can HEAR THE HORN WHOOPING- which is something I struggle to hear in everything I'm checking out.
Chailly? Are you kidding me? Even though his seems far away, it still has more oomph than Simon Preston/Decca.. But, for me the problem is brought in spades in the Chailly- in some kind of effort to balance the (frankly) smallish orchestra with the chorus, MOST ALL ENGINEERS seem to opt for the "distance" approach, which usually is noticed from the very first chord hit and the impression it makes in the sonic space. The Chailly sounds to me like one of those Nimbus recordings, which always sounds like a "perfect" bootleg (a small aural image surrounded by ambient reverb).
By contrast, Igor/CBS has what sounds like the orchestra AMONGST the singers (or vice versa). All the tooting and burping from the lower winds is heard. The descending to the abyss oboe run is heard- imagine how far away it is in the Chailly.
I just got the Maazel, and though what I heard on the samples still comes across- I really think this is a great take- the distance is just a little farther than the CBS- YES, I'm being uber picky here, but, for all its beauty of sound, that slight distance is all it takes to blend those horns into that opening so they really just don't pop out at you like they should (I should say, though, that because of the slightly quicker tempo, this one does have some more clarity, in a way). Now, I may be able to get used to this Maazel, but, as I was scouring the field again (oy, Bernstein soooo sloooow), I just noticed that everyone is having real difficulty getting a good recording balance here.
Solti's balance seems just a touch farther than Maazel (which was just a touch farther than Igor), Again, it seems to be par for the course. Didn't check MMT yet.
Bertini, on Orfeo, is not quite as far away as Chailly, but somehow has a nice presence- I really liked this one, but, again, why can't I have some micing?
WHY CAN'T I GET UP FRONT AND CLEAR?? I know, I'm waiting on the Boulea and Rattle already...
Craft? Kinda far away.
I WANT TO HEAR THE OBOE AND BASSOON!! THE HORNS!!
THE FLIPPIN HARP-
Name me ONE version where you can actually hear the harp.
Hyperion/O'Donnell??? Was that recorded in the other end of the cathedral?
THE VOICES WERE WRITTEN TO BE LIKE INSTRUMENTS- MIX THEM TOGETHER AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
gasping for air.... gasp....gasp.....ok..... pant......pant.....whew......
Was it the Shaw that had more reverb than 10 beach boys? Or was it just slow... or lame?... what was the problem there?...
ok, regroup...
Is it Sunday?...no, it's Thursday...
I need to go check the filter on my flange gasket
Pulcinella
Jeu de Cartes
Abbado/LSO (DG)
It put me to sleep. It did, but I won't fault it,... really. It was also the first time I heard... most... of 'Jeu de Cartes', which starts off with the most pompous chord in all of Stravinsky (if I have any bead on his humor). Yea, I found JdC very odd, yet it had a Prokofien busy blandness that I couldn't keep up with. Surely, there must be some Prokofiev influence here? I did note how it was so much of older styles of music, but had a streamlined tone that could have only come from Europe 20s-30s. I'm not sure I'll be seeking out other versions, even though the 1980 DG sound shows its age just a tiny blush (it's pretty fine- I seem to prefer Decca sound during this period, well, what do you this of this sound?)
'Pulcinella' began to make me think I was a kid being dragged to the Opera. LOL. I mean, I did enjoy it- and I WAS lying down, with my hands clasped and my eyes closed,... arf... and yes, it was making me dream of bland things and trips to fancy places and social parties and such...zzz.....zzzzz.....zzz.....zzzz..zzzzz..... oh, and then it went to something else.
But, yea, these two scores seem to belong together, and, on this Abbado performance, present to me a side of Stravinsky which will stay on this disc. Nothing else sounds like these two pieces. 'Jeu', especially, sounds like Prokofiev to me... is it me?... but I can't place it as Igor yet. So, these two pieces are going to get filed with Prokofiev, odd.
I thought I like 'Jeu' more than I did.
Performance is fine, though- singing
Quote from: snyprrr on March 16, 2017, 07:08:38 PMBy contrast, Igor/CBS has what sounds like the orchestra AMONGST the singers (or vice versa).
That's what I love about Igor's recordings in general .. even if the tuning is a bit ropey in places.
.. it feels like your sitting within the group hearing all that awesome rhythmic stuff.Quote from: snyprrr on March 16, 2017, 07:08:38 PMHyperion/O'Donnell??? Was that recorded in the other end of the cathedral?/
I really love the recording of the Mass on this one. Perhaps for Psalms try the Boulez/DG one, though it's a distant/ambient too if i recall, most of his DG re-treads suffer from this, blurring/marring/smudging the musical result .. and I can't believe he allowed it, or even wasted so much time re-recording stuff like this .. the first run Sony recordings are often superior for up close sound .. the DG has at least a very good Symphonies of Winds on it.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 16, 2017, 07:26:02 PM
Pulcinella
Jeu de Cartes
Abbado/LSO (DG)
Pulcinella I can tolerate under certain conditions .. never really cared for the 'Card Game' & a few others in a similar vein, a whole slew from the middling period which are kind of blah by Igor's standards.
On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm. What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C. I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.
Quote from: arpeggio on March 16, 2017, 08:49:13 PM
On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm. What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C. I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.
(I actually think its presence is audible in the Stravinsky / Columbia recording)
You expect to hear that contra as anything other than a contributor to the timbre of what is probably near a full tutti of an entire ensemble of
5 flutes (5th doubling piccolo), 4 oboes, cor anglais, 3 bassoons, and contrabassoon; 4 horns in F, piccolo trumpet, 4 trumpets in C, 3 trombones, and tuba; timpani, bass drum, 2 pianos, and harp; cellos and contrabasses; and a four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass) -- ah, instrumentalists ;-)
... and talk about musical puns in a sacred work and that third movement being so very much In C:
"DO - minum"
Always best regards.
Quote from: James on March 16, 2017, 08:37:35 PM
Perhaps for Psalms try the Boulez/DG one, though it's a distant/ambient too if i recall, most of his DG re-treads suffer from this, blurring/marring/smudging the musical result .. and I can't believe he allowed it, or even wasted so much time re-recording stuff like this .. the first run Sony recordings are often superior for up close sound ..
the DG has at least a very good Symphonies of Winds on it.[/size][/font]
^^^ Yes, that is the universal consensus that that's a not little SOWindInstr...
But yea, it seems like eeeveryone's got to have that ambience at all costs... ugh... yea, I'm having a little conniption fit here over this... is it too much to ask??... JUST ONE modern digital version where you can HEAR STUFF...
Yea, I thought Boulez was King of the Musical X-Ray... how dare he allow 'Psalms' to be anything less that irradiated.
Quote from: arpeggio on March 16, 2017, 08:49:13 PM
On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm. What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C. I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.
People should be arrested...
I have never wept over a low C until now... oh, fore soothe... poor bassoon, we hardly knew ye :'(
IS THERE ONE OUT THERE?? JUST ONE??
My fav new part of 'Psalms' is that whooping horn right before the initial singing starts- and CBS is the only place I've heard it wail like a wounded brontosaur... also, those semi-tones in the strings??... oy, have you heard how weak they are in soooo many versions??....
ok, need to relax.... this thing has got me all pissy this morning, throwing vases and clearing desks... where's the rifles??...MA, PASS ME OVER THE TABLE SOME BULLETS!!!
I wonder how I'll react when I finally hear Rattle's, and that choir comes in in that obviously fake positioning, edited in no doubt...
I'M IN A FURIOUS RAGE!!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D STOP ME!! (Jim Carrey) snap into a slimjim!!!!
A Clean Well Lit Place
What must one do to just find a 'Psalms' that just at least stands alongside Igor's?? Everyone's been overthinking this piece for 50 years now... get it straight people!!!... yes, YOU- I'm talkin to you M.r SONY Exec.,.... Mr. Universal Entertainment.... Warner Brahs...
AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 16, 2017, 11:39:20 PM
(I actually think its presence is audible in the Stravinsky / Columbia recording)
You expect to hear that contra as anything other than a contributor to the timbre of what is probably near a full tutti of an entire ensemble of 5 flutes (5th doubling piccolo), 4 oboes, cor anglais, 3 bassoons, and contrabassoon; 4 horns in F, piccolo trumpet, 4 trumpets in C, 3 trombones, and tuba; timpani, bass drum, 2 pianos, and harp; cellos and contrabasses; and a four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass)
-- ah, instrumentalists ;-)
... and talk about musical puns in a sacred work and that third movement being so very much In C:
"DO - minum"
Always best regards.
:-[ :-[ :-[
You are right!!! You can hear and feel that wonderful subtle sound on the Columbia recording. When I play it on a better stereo system it is there, you can feel it. Oh joy unbounded. Good old Igor got it right :)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2017, 06:59:33 AM
I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .
Only a start, of course, but I've listened anew to the
Tango and the
Capriccio, and these are both delightfully nervy.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
And Béroff was so energetically febrile with the Piano-Rag Music, I nearly didn't recognize it, at first.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2017, 07:06:31 AM
Only a start, of course, but I've listened anew to the Tango and the Capriccio, and these are both delightfully nervy.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
The one Amazon Reviewer lays all the blame on the French engineers- says the piano sound is a disaster... says they got the orchestra right, but, again, didn't get the piano...
My question, Karl- do you have the original wide 2CD, or the reissue, which I must assume has some re-mastering? Of course, remastering can't really fix an original recording issue... anyhow, is the piano image "hard, brittle"?? I really didn't hear anything too clanky when I check out the 'Serenade'.
AND- Beroff and Ozawa seem to almost have the most delicate 'Movements'. I spent all day going over III. with all the version- ALL THE VERSIONS (Weber, Rosen, Bruins, Beroff, Crossley, Mustonen, Osborne, Bavouzet, Richter... couldn't find Oldfather/Craft)... I was surprised, I gave III. to Beroff, Weber, and Osborne, with Crossley rounding out.
I'm hot on the 'Movements' right now... I got III. down pretty good, understanding what he's doing... I'm starting to think it's the perfect Avant piece, sitting like a perch there in 1958, looking back, looking forward, a little Webern, a little Babbitt/Sessions...
I'm also hearing the jazziness... but only in the Rosen... you could actually play these "mit der swing" to get a real jazzy feel... I mean, it WAS written for a women, and I hear these delicious things that no one seems really to hang on (Richter&Co. seem to have taken the most care with the score- Baxouzet is starting to sound lazy to me (Osborne is very very icy, though).
Again, I look towards a Knussen 'Movements'.
In the interview snippets which serve as liner notes to the
CSO recording of the
Symphony in Three Movements,
Boulez sez:
Quote from: M. BoulezThe best parts of the Symphony in Three Movements for me are the first movement and part of the third, where he has an illustration of something in his mind. [Henning note: This is roughly equal parts presumptuous—Boulez knows where Stravinsky has "an illustration of something in his mind," and where not—and circular, since earlier in the interview he said "For me, Stravinsky is at his best when he illustrates something."] At one moment in the first movement, you even find reminiscences of The Rite of Spring. That's very surprising. When I heard that for the first time—it was performed in France after the war—I thought, "Oh yes, certainly: the Rite of Spring surges again."
I made that connection—between the
Symphony and
Le sacre—myself, when I heard the
Cleveland Orchestra play the
Symphony. (It was probably a little easier for me, since I had not heard all that many of the intervening
Stravinsky pieces at that point.) And why I point this out is, in the
CSO recording
Boulez especially brings out that "pagan Russian" vitality in the
Symphony.
And, that
Ozawa and
Béroff perform the
Capriccio, not like a wad of cotton candy off at the side, but like a companion piece to
Le sacre and the
Symphony in Three Movements. Lots of focus and energy. Love it!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 18, 2017, 07:36:03 AM
My question, Karl- do you have the original wide 2CD, or the reissue, which I must assume has some re-mastering? Of course, remastering can't really fix an original recording issue... anyhow, is the piano image "hard, brittle"?? I really didn't hear anything too clanky when I check out the 'Serenade'.
Decades ago, I had the original, and it didn't sing to me. (But, as with the
Lenny Les noces, let's presume that I failed to listen to it under favorable conditions.) Now I've got the reissue. I hear warmth in the piano tone, without it being cushy; I think it perfectly suitable, in other words.
Finnish National Opera Company's Rake's Progress (from April 2016) is available here for another three weeks. The performance starts at 17 minutes in the video.
http://areena.yle.fi/1-3399098
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2017, 06:59:33 AM
The Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.
I'm assuming you mean the Birmingham?... Have we heard the new Rattle/Berlin, also, I believe , on EMI? I'm going to relent and state the obvious, that that original Birmingham performance (and recording) are just about as much as anyone could perhaps want... so, I am curious if he ups the ante with the better orchestra... I mean... OK, I JUST LISTENED TO BERLIN SAMPLES- mmm... kinda over-plush... even I can't handle that much sugar... mm... too much of a good thing there maybe?
I just listened again to Craft Koch/Naxos- the timings against NewRattle show Rattle being a little indulgent. I wouldn't even seek out another 'Apollo' if I didn't hear just a touch of aggressiveness in the (Craft) recording, which does not seem to be there in the 'Orpheus' recording- same venue, different seasons, same year. Does anyone hear this? Maybe it's just an attenuation in the treble I'm hearing?
'Apollo''s always been an instant hit with me. Doesn't the ending of 2 sound like the DSCH VC 1? Anyhow, how is this supposed to sound like Lully?
Quote from: snyprrr on March 19, 2017, 06:11:44 PM
I'm assuming you mean the Birmingham?... Have we heard the new Rattle/Berlin, also, I believe , on EMI? I'm going to relent and state the obvious, that that original Birmingham performance (and recording) are just about as much as anyone could perhaps want... so, I am curious if he ups the ante with the better orchestra... I mean... OK, I JUST LISTENED TO BERLIN SAMPLES- mmm... kinda over-plush... even I can't handle that much sugar... mm... too much of a good thing there maybe?
I just listened again to Craft Koch/Naxos- the timings against NewRattle show Rattle being a little indulgent. I wouldn't even seek out another 'Apollo' if I didn't hear just a touch of aggressiveness in the (Craft) recording, which does not seem to be there in the 'Orpheus' recording- same venue, different seasons, same year. Does anyone hear this? Maybe it's just an attenuation in the treble I'm hearing?
'Apollo''s always been an instant hit with me. Doesn't the ending of 2 sound like the DSCH VC 1? Anyhow, how is this supposed to sound like Lully?
Check out Chailly's
Apollo (if you haven't already). It's sublime.
Le Rossignol
(Renard)
Mavra
Oedipus Rex
Persephone
The Rake's Progress
I just can't get it up for Opera. :( I did enjoy 'Die Soldaten', which i might imagine could be a 99 year old Stravinsky's last work, but there is not enough of that ole' musical craziness in his Operas to keep me from thinking... "Opera"... I'm sorry, but when my ears hear "warbling male singer" (whether they do or not doesn't matter- I HEAR WARBLE ALWAYS!!), I shut down.
'Le Rossignol' I sampled a little bit, and, ok, it sounded somewhat charming, so, maybe we could give this some consideration in the future. (Boulez/Erato- Conlon/EMI)
'Renard': to ME, it's 16min. "Opera", lol. But, here, the sound of warbling male voices achieves the proper effect: humor! Yes, if it's all in good fun, then I can handle "Opera" like this. Now, I heard the Chailly first, and the pronouncing there has gotten stuck in my heard, so that Salonen and Dutoit sounded "off" to me. However, Stravinsky's own recording is truly wilder than them all, and in English!, revealing dialogue that made my ear perk up! Talk about detail! Anyway, if there haaas to be Opera, then, may it sound like this (maybe with a cool Ballade in the middle?).
'Mavra' sounded okaaay... yea, it's still lots of singing... did have an "old world" flavor, homey, made me sleepy (that's a good thing!).
'Oepidus Rex': I just can't get over male voices. And, "they" were saying this was Stravinsky's "iciest" score, and that Salonen was the "iciest", so,... NOOOOO,... that's not what happened at all! Sure, I heard some cool rhythms, kind of Orff-like stuff, but, mm, eh, - I know, I know, Colin Davis. I was sooo disappointed that I couldn't get into this, I thought it would be the gateway...
'Persephone' I did like somewhat on first hearing. Second time I just heard people singing (it's like sea-sickness). I'll try again.
'The Rake's Progress', again, I wanted to be able to just get into it, but, mm, no, after the initial Neo-Classical Fanfare, the singing starts, and it's in English, so, I can't tell the difference between a Musical and an Opera now. I dunno... all these items can be had for about $5+sh., so, it shouldn't be a thing to check it out, but, I just can't seem to get excited over any of these Operas at the time. I'd just be sitting there staring at the speakers wondering how wasted I'd have to get to be able to sit through- even the shorter ones! :'( No, please,... not Opera!! :o
Which is ok :laugh:
Perhaps i thought I was going to heard some Avant Garde music along with the singing, it doesn't matter. I do recognize Stravinsky as an Opera Composer, which is the highest achievement in this way, so, I do certainly give him credit for being... hip.
But, it appears i can enjoy all the rest without apparently missing what I'm missing. I mean, I can always check it out on YT if it gets all OCD like... brrrrr, scary ???
I tried :blank:
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 19, 2017, 06:51:18 PM
....a soldiers tale? 8)
+1
Love this piece. Both the suite and full version with narrator.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 19, 2017, 06:32:44 PM
Check out Chailly's Apollo (if you haven't already). It's sublime.
Trust me, if the Chailly was $2, and the Dutoit was $4 (instead of the other way around right now), my penny pinchin' ass wouldn't be pining! Yes, it's THAT bad... I mean, I just saw a DORATI 'Apollo' (w/Copland;Decca) for
a penny- but I couldn't find it on YT. I mean... I mean...
The only thing... with 'Apollo' I NEED the Greatest of the Great... so... yea... Chailly and the Concertgebouw (though Dutoit is nice too,... and I do like Rattle'88). I was even considering Saraste with the Scottish CO, lol, kind of gray Virgin sound I sometimes love (but, 'Apollo' neeeds the Concertgebouw- I was surprised that Rattle/Berlin is just too plush).
Dorati 'Apollo', anyone?
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 19, 2017, 06:51:18 PM
Do you like a soldiers tale? 8)
Haven't heard the "vocal" version yet. Shocked by the Clarinet Trio version. Liked the "sans vocals"... I can handle the funny music without a narrative... and it is kind of odd, bayou banjo music at that! I'm sure I'll find some Xenakis hidden somewhere in there! ;)
So far, I've only heard Maazel leading the ensemble on RCA. I've got Boulez coming (wondering how that will sound). I know there's Chailly, Norrington, Boston Chamber Players (with vocals), and the Cocteau version, Dutoit/Erato,... mm,...
I like his "ragtime phase", 1918-1919. It seems, right before, you have 'Le Chant du Rossignol', a very almost fairytale+avantgarde, and then he dips into Louisiana for a year, and then comes out with 'White Music' in 1920, the bayou phase never to be returned to, so to speak. This "bayou phase" of course only is manifested in three works proper (the solo clarinet pieces seem to sound more like the next phase?), so, I find it an interesting curio. I'm sure '...Soldat' will grow on me.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 19, 2017, 06:32:44 PM
Check out Chailly's Apollo (if you haven't already). It's sublime.
Apollo-thon2017Karajan
Dutoit
Chailly
Rattle1
Rattle2
Craft
Markevitch (not represented)
Lubbock
Jarvi
Saraste
Being going back and forth for... oh sh&%, it's late...
Rattle1 is the rawest emotion, "blackest" EMI creepy cool acoustics/distance.
Rattle2 just sounds like butter, just sooo much butter, thicker than all.
Dutoit has the most charming, blooming, mists in marbled heavens sound, the happy joyous and free version, I really like it, solo violin nice.
Chailly seems to have the most purpose in turning out a masterpiece, and his is etched and poised to perfection, with a quicker intro than most indicating no Romantic lingering (unlike Rattle2). Chailly's solo violin is exceptional, and there is a little extra
frisson at the end, very intense.
Karajan, however, gives chills at the end, and scores a few character points with Berlin strings that sound like they're being drawn my Maestro's wand in midair. I think this one needs to be investigated further.
Craft is the most 'Dragnet'-style, "Just the facts", with stone bold, old style Columbia bald and hard strings, the most sobering rendition on this survey (and, technically, the "worst" sound, - it might remind me of a MarcoPolo recording style). Both Craft and Lubbock are known for having two of the very best of 'Orpheus', but their 'Apollos', though both very good-to-great, might not match up with the above line-up. As I recall,
Jarvi is nice and plush, in typical Chandos fashion; I'm assuming he would err on the side of good humor, like Dutoit, but I don't recall.
Saraste is also pretty good, amongst much competition, with that odd Virgin sound that might not cut it with the big boys this time around; others might disagree somewhat.
Then there's this Dorati from 1988? Wha...? I'm so intrigued.
waiting for next Post...
I will also take the 1001st Post, thank you! ;)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 19, 2017, 09:35:12 PM
Same, it's gonna be slaughterama here :laugh: ??? :'( :'(
DOOOH!! :o ??? :o ???
You just sank my battleship!!!!! :'( :'( :'( >:D >:D >:D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
now what were you saying? :laugh:
pop open the bubbly baby, pop open the bubbly :P
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 19, 2017, 09:37:40 PM
Igor Fyodorovich Stravinsky (sometimes spelled Strawinski, Strawinsky, or Stravinskii; Russian: И́горь Фёдорович Страви́нский, tr. Igorʹ Fëdorovič Stravinskij; IPA: [ˈiɡərʲ ˈfʲɵdərəvʲɪtɕ strɐˈvʲinskʲɪj]; 17 June [O.S. 5 June] 1882 – 6 April 1971) was a Russian-born composer, pianist, and conductor. He is widely considered one of the most important and influential composers of the 20th century.
Stravinsky's compositional career was notable for its stylistic diversity. He first achieved international fame with three ballets commissioned by the impresario Sergei Diaghilev and first performed in Paris by Diaghilev's Ballets Russes: The Firebird (1910), Petrushka (1911) and The Rite of Spring (1913). The last of these transformed the way in which subsequent composers thought about rhythmic structure and was largely responsible for Stravinsky's enduring reputation as a musical revolutionary who pushed the boundaries of musical design. His "Russian phase" which continued with works such as Renard, The Soldier's Tale and Les Noces, was followed in the 1920s by a period in which he turned to neoclassical music. The works from this period tended to make use of traditional musical forms (concerto grosso, fugue and symphony), drawing on earlier styles, especially from the 18th century. In the 1950s, Stravinsky adopted serial procedures. His compositions of this period shared traits with examples of his earlier output: rhythmic energy, the construction of extended melodic ideas out of a few two- or three-note cells and clarity of form, and of instrumentation.
LOL!! :laugh:
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 19, 2017, 09:39:01 PM
Sorry, I wanted to do the flashy scrolly stuff too :(
woo hoo party time excellent!! :laugh:
I just celebrated by purchasing Haitink's 1991 'Scenes de Ballet' with Berlin. Oh, this is exciting! 'Night Iggsters ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 19, 2017, 06:11:44 PM
I'm assuming you mean the Birmingham?... [Rattle, Apollo]
Aye.
Cross-postQuote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2017, 05:19:12 PM
Courtesy of Mirror Image: Stravinsky in Hollywood
I admit it: I always find film footage of
Игорь Фëдорович touching. I learnt some new things, and quite a few things I already knew, were illustrated more fully. The superimposition of the second movement of the
Symphony in Three Movements with footage from
The Song of Bernadette (
Stravinsky had been approached to write the score, but it was one of several film score projects to fall through) is very interesting; it would have come off as fully art-house, I think – not
Going Hollywood, at all, at all.
If I knew before, I had entirely forgotten, that both
Schoenberg and
Stravinsky were in the theatre at the same time, for Shilkret's
Genesis Suite event (18 Nov 1945, at the Wilshire Ebell Theatre); they kept apart, but — they were both under the same roof. If I remember the poster aright, Laurence Harvey (
The Manchurian Candidate) did the narration.
Of course (and even though the recordings/sound quality were not necessarily the best) I found the selections used for the soundtrack very affecting. I'll go ahead and opine that this is obligatory viewing for any self-respecting
Stravinsky nerd 8)
Parenthetically (courtesy of Wikipedia):
QuoteA completely new recording of the Genesis Suite was made in December 2000 at Jesus Christus Kirche in Berlin by the Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin, conducted by Gerard Schwarz and featuring the Ernst Senff Chor.[2] The narration was by acting stars Tovah Feldshuh, Barbara Feldon, David Margulies, Fritz Weaver, and writer Isaiah Sheffer. The recordings were made from recreated scores.[2] The liner notes state that the only copies of five of the scores were destroyed in a fire in Nathaniel Shilkret's home in the 1960s. There was a fire in his son Arthur Shilkret's store at 55 Church Street, Malverne, New York on 26 October 1973 (documented in the 1 November 1973 Malverne Times, a copy of which is reproduced in the archival edition of the Shilkret autobiography). However, full scores prepared by Shilkret of all seven parts are still in the Shilkret archives as well as Castelnuevo-Tedesco's original signed submitted score, dated 11 March 1944.
The Genesis Suite was performed by the Seattle Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Gerard Schwarz, accompanied by the University of Washington Chorale, with narrative by F. Murray Abraham and Patty Duke on 29 and 31 May 2008.
Barbara Feldon!
Patty Duke!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 20, 2017, 04:38:49 AM
Cross-post
I admit it: I always find film footage of Игорь Фëдорович touching. I learnt some new things, and quite a few things I already knew, were illustrated more fully. The superimposition of the second movement of the Symphony in Three Movements with footage from The Song of Bernadette (Stravinsky had been approached to write the score, but it was one of several film score projects to fall through) is very interesting; it would have come off as fully art-house, I think – not Going Hollywood, at all, at all.
If I knew before, I had entirely forgotten, that both Schoenberg and Stravinsky were in the theatre at the same time, for Shilkret's Genesis Suite event (18 Nov 1945, at the Wilshire Ebell Theatre); they kept apart, but — they were both under the same roof. If I remember the poster aright, Laurence Harvey (The Manchurian Candidate) did the narration.
Of course (and even though the recordings/sound quality were not necessarily the best) I found the selections used for the soundtrack very affecting. I'll go ahead and opine that this is obligatory viewing for any self-respecting Stravinsky nerd 8)
Glad you enjoyed the film, Karl. 8) It's quite good indeed.
Thanks, again!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 19, 2017, 09:58:53 PM
I just celebrated by purchasing Haitink's 1991 'Scenes de Ballet' with Berlin. Oh, this is exciting! 'Night Iggsters ;)
Scenes de BalletI had disregarded this, but it's on that MTT/RCA, sooo,... hmm,... they say it's his only foray into "Broadway"... I dunno, still sounds like his ballet music generally... I was hoping this Haitink/Berlin version would be a good foil for MTT.
I do like the piano at the end... is it playing throughout the piece, I can't hear it
For some reason I'm really taking to his "boring" music... something about "elite 40s Hollywood Babylon soundtrack", all sheen and white on the outside hiding unspeakable crimes (LA Confidential type, Black Dahlia)... is he the true 'Twin Peaks' Composer?? hmm.....
Iggy and Arney never came to blows? :laugh: Please regale us with their spatting...
"Fascist"
"Communist"
Quote from: snyprrr on March 20, 2017, 08:03:33 AMIggy and Arney never came to blows? :laugh: Please regale us with their spatting...
[Ahem] That's
Arnie, not Arney. ;D
(https://eartripmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/001schoenbergredgaze1910.jpg)
You will get his name right says
The Red Gaze. :)
I'm trying to get a handle on the Craft Cycle... uh boy... simply the most bizarre amalgam of pieces willy-nilly on every disc, whether MusicMasters, Koch, or Naxos. I mean, you can't get any one piece without getting a truckload of stuff you don't perhaps want.
I'm working on a collating Post... but, what a task!! And, frankly, I'm not hearing that great of sound coming from any of these recordings. I mean, they were made in the 90s, right? They all seem to have that MarcoPolo sound, which is "ok, but nothing state-of-the-art", many times with the high end muffled a little.
What do you say are Craft's Top3?
Can we "act" like the "supervised", older recordings are "Stravinsky", and not "Craft"? I don't see the point in even more confusion...
I mean, I keep hearing "correct" performances in mediocre sound. Why does love have to be so sad? :(
Quote from: snyprrr on March 21, 2017, 06:30:29 AM
I'm trying to get a handle on the Craft Cycle... uh boy... simply the most bizarre amalgam of pieces willy-nilly on every disc, whether MusicMasters, Koch, or Naxos. I mean, you can't get any one piece without getting a truckload of stuff you don't perhaps want.
I'm working on a collating Post... but, what a task!! And, frankly, I'm not hearing that great of sound coming from any of these recordings. I mean, they were made in the 90s, right? They all seem to have that MarcoPolo sound, which is "ok, but nothing state-of-the-art", many times with the high end muffled a little.
What do you say are Craft's Top3?
Can we "act" like the "supervised", older recordings are "Stravinsky", and not "Craft"? I don't see the point in even more confusion...
I mean, I keep hearing "correct" performances in mediocre sound. Why does love have to be so sad? :(
The Naxos Apollo-Agon-Orpheus is a good one. I often recommend it.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 21, 2017, 06:30:29 AM
I'm trying to get a handle on the Craft Cycle... uh boy... simply the most bizarre amalgam of pieces willy-nilly on every disc, whether MusicMasters, Koch, or Naxos. I mean, you can't get any one piece without getting a truckload of stuff you don't perhaps want.
Well, I just might be a dyed-in-the-wool fanboy, but there is nothing of even the lesser "filler" on any of the Koch or Music Masters issues which I don't want. Well, perhaps they were items I didn't want when I first ordered the discs, but after I listened through, I found that I
wanted them, only I hadn't
known it 8)
My challenge has been the Naxos reissues, where the re-shuffling of the programs has prompted the question, do I want the redundancy? (Similar story with the
Schoenberg/
Craft reissues on Naxos, of course.)
And I beg to differ, none of these suffer from Marco Polo soundstage/recording mrmmrmrmmrrm.
So, the
Craft Top 3? Tough to winnow it down! Setting aside
Threni (which Naxos hasn't touched, I think) I'm apt to vote for:
Le baiser de la fée (
LSO)
Orpheus (
LSO)
Le sacre (
LSO again, I believe . . . there's an earlier recording with the
Orchestra of St Luke's from the Music Masters vol. 1)
I cannot do so before my Friday concert, but now I am curious to do a comparison listen between the two
Rites.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 21, 2017, 09:05:59 AM
Well, I just might be a dyed-in-the-wool fanboy, but there is nothing of even the lesser "filler" on any of the Koch or Music Masters issues which I don't want. Well, perhaps they were items I didn't want when I first ordered the discs, but after I listened through, I found that I wanted them, only I hadn't known it 8)
That said, though, none of these included the two
Suites for chamber orchestra, or the
Four Moody Norwegians, which for me do represent
filler.)
Quote from: James on March 21, 2017, 08:01:21 AM
The Naxos Apollo-Agon-Orpheus is a good one. I often recommend it.
Yea, that one I have, buuut, yes, the 'Orpheus' just SOUNDS really really good, but then the 'Apollo' does not share the exact same date (same orch, same venue, diff. date). I find the 'Apollo' recording to be what I meant by "MarcoPolo"- it sounds just a little aggressive to me (just the sound, not the playing or tempi).
Anyhow, yea, this one's great, but now I want simply the Koch with 'Orpheus' and 'Baiser',... this is the madness, once you start hearing things, you want them all on ONE disc, but noooo, now we have deck shuffling like crazy.
Also, you really have to look at these, because there seem to be oodles of things hidden on every disc, it''s a grab bag... why they did it this way??... I guess Igor did it this way, like that LP "New Compositions by IS", it didn't matter if it was a trio or orchestra...
sorry, rambling...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 21, 2017, 09:17:51 AM
That said, though, none of these included the two Suites for chamber orchestra, or the Four Moody Norwegians, which for me do represent filler.)
Tell me that "Apollo' has the same SOUND as "Orpheus'. There is, by the sheer mixing together, a wealth of recording dates, and this is not Decca, and they're not the Concertgebouw...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 21, 2017, 09:05:59 AM
Well, I just might be a dyed-in-the-wool fanboy, but there is nothing of even the lesser "filler" on any of the Koch or Music Masters issues which I don't want. Well, perhaps they were items I didn't want when I first ordered the discs, but after I listened through, I found that I wanted them, only I hadn't known it 8)
My challenge has been the Naxos reissues, where the re-shuffling of the programs has prompted the question, do I want the redundancy? (Similar story with the Schoenberg/Craft reissues on Naxos, of course.)
And I beg to differ, none of these suffer from Marco Polo soundstage/recording mrmmrmrmmrrm.
So, the Craft Top 3? Tough to winnow it down! Setting aside Threni (which Naxos hasn't touched, I think) I'm apt to vote for:
Le baiser de la fée (LSO)
Orpheus (LSO)
Le sacre (LSO again, I believe . . . there's an earlier recording with the Orchestra of St Luke's from the Music Masters vol. 1)
I cannot do so before my Friday concert, but now I am curious to do a comparison listen between the two Rites.
disregard whatever I wrote above...
Well, here you vindicated my suspicions... that Koch disc with ORPH-BAISer appears to have THE sound, with the LSO. 'Apollo', recorded on a diff. date, seems to not have the exact same great great sound, it only has- the "MarcoPolo" sound (that piece in particular, as directly compared to ORPH on the Naxos disc. IF IF IF 'Apollo' had the exact same sound, it would be a hands-downer.
Yes, I'm ranting, but I'm not even thinking ChaillyDutoitRattle... love Craft's 'Apollo', but the string sound, or recording sound is not the winner of the Best String recording of the year... I'm sure.
So, now, how does his BAISer compare with Knussen?
I checked a few Craft Koch/Naxos recordings- 'Dumbarton' certainly has the fastest 1st, very blistering (not as fast as one of IS's, which is ridiculously fastt). 'dANSES cONCERTANTES was equally full of vitality.
Yes, I could hear IS in Craft. He definitely "acts" like an Apostle, so that you can almost hear the actual hand of IS, as I'm sure is the intention of nurturing such a "son".
And, again with the sound- is he really aiming to also duplicate that bald recording sound in almost all of IS's recordings? Why not take advantage of glorious modern sound, AND play it the old way??
Problem is, the more glorious the sound, the more the tendency to "do something" (like wallow, cough cough Rattle Berlin 'Apollo'). When you have glorious sound, and you hear the conductor actively trying not to succumb to it, that's when you get those great, desperately glorious performances. maybe?
So, anyhow, I do give Craft FirstChoice in 'Orpheus'. (liked the Colin Davis sample too)
No mailman today.
The
Kontarsky 'Sonata' arrived. Whew, that's just such a great sound. You really have to play NeoClassStrav like it's 1793 for it took play right, and they do. And I'm totally sold on
Deszo Ranki in the Piano Music, lightest touch, perfect plink/plonk, really brings out out the Weber or wotnot... but you must hear this 1979 recording, perfect Teldec/Telefunken.
Chailly: Divertimento, Octet, 2 Suites, clarinet solo, trumpet duo 1980...has a very purposed and perfect feel, Decca clean
Maazel: Sym in 3 Mvmts, Soldier's Tale, Sym of Psalms... almost just like IS, with sumptuous sound... sumptuous RCA
styleoh this comput r
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 20, 2017, 09:43:49 AM
[Ahem] That's Arnie, not Arney. ;D
(https://eartripmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/001schoenbergredgaze1910.jpg)
You will get his name right says The Red Gaze. :)
it's not a tumahhh :laugh:
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 21, 2017, 09:17:51 AM
That said, though, none of these included the two Suites for chamber orchestra, or the Four Moody Norwegians, which for me do represent filler.)
jeg er uenig
While they may be faux Norse, the Moods sound to me like echt Igor.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 19, 2017, 09:30:42 PM
It's alright, I'll line up to be whipped :laugh:
For what? Being sophomoric when you are but a freshman?
There is a sort of world-wide amnesty / slack cut for just such persons and such like occasions of their utterances.
You've got this year and the next to get all that out before you are expected to be held more grimly accountable ;-)
Best regards.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 19, 2017, 09:34:31 PM
1000 Posts!
14,000 blank lines between text content!
Quote from: arpeggio on March 17, 2017, 08:29:09 AM
:-[ :-[ :-[
You are right!!! You can hear and feel that wonderful subtle sound on the Columbia recording. When I play it on a better stereo system it is there, you can feel it. Oh joy unbounded. Good old Igor got it right :)
Whatever the fuss over this recording or that, In that Columbia series of recordings
done in the 60's (the box set slips a few in from other times, Petrushka, for one), I.S. got the tempi, relative tempi from movement to movement / segment to segment, the articulation, and the dynamic balance of every part, especially when it comes to the vertical harmonies, absolutely right.
[Listen to the I.S. conducted Columbia recording of his Mass. Then check out the almost nasty balance of the instrumental harmonies in the Bernstein recording, rendering the vertical sonorities like a variety of candy-asschords that sound more like they are from a Broadway musical or popular songbook than Stravinsky. What a shocker -- Lenny's sensibility imposed upon....I] My second 'go to' for a fine and different take of Stravinsky are those Stravinkys works recorded by Karl Ancerl and the Czech Philharmonic musicians (on Supraphon) done between ca. 1950 to 1968.
Best regards.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 07, 2017, 11:01:10 AM
ok, I've hit my first Indiana Jones moment...
You mean, "Don't look, Marion!"...?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2017, 05:01:17 AM
You mean, "Don't look, Marion!"...?
Seriously, I spent last night trying... trying to collate Craft's performances... yea, it's worse than I thought...
THE QUESTION IS-
Did Koch
also reissue the MusicMasters recordings, because there seems to already be duplication even before we get to Naxos. I specifically found a 'Pulcinella' on Koch, and on MusicMasters (the latter with St.Lukes(, and I saw two Symphonies in C (though I didn't get to verify one way or another).
I'll try and get my research into a Post... it really is an fd up shuffling though... no doubt confusion reigns, but not for long...
tO START... we do verify that the MusicMasters (11 Vols.) came FIRST, right? Then, immediately (@1999) Koch (7 Vols.) takes over. Then some time passes, and then Naxos begins... IS THIS CORRECT?
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 21, 2017, 07:11:49 PM
14,000 blank lines between text content!
wHOEVER'S DOING THAT SHOULD BE BANNED (whoops)!!! I'll back you 100% ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 22, 2017, 06:36:38 AM
Seriously, I spent last night trying... trying to collate Craft's performances... yea, it's worse than I thought...
THE QUESTION IS-
Did Koch also reissue the MusicMasters recordings, because there seems to already be duplication even before we get to Naxos.
While I cannot vouch that Koch did not reissue the Music Masters
at all, I know that the
Symphony of Psalms,
Œdipus Rex and
Le sacre on the Music Masters vol. 1 (
Orch of St Luke's,
Paul Newman narrating
Rex) are distinct from later Koch recordings (the
Philharmonia;
Edward Fox narrating; and the
LSO, respectively).
Quote from: snyprrr on March 22, 2017, 06:36:38 AMTo START... we do verify that the MusicMasters (11 Vols.) came FIRST, right? Then, immediately (@1999) Koch (7 Vols.) takes over. Then some time passes, and then Naxos begins... IS THIS CORRECT?
The ordering is right. Vol. 1 of the Music Masters series was issued in 1991, so I don't know if 1999 counts as
immediately 8)
And the question of what overlap there may be, remains.
MusicMasters Koch Naxos
V1 (2CD) VolL6 #1
OEDIPUS........................................................OEDIPUS........................................................OEDIPUS
2 trumpet babel NOCES
DUMBARTON sermon
REQUIEM king/stars #2
SYM-PSALMS Vol?? Vol?? le rossignol
SACRE....................... .SACRE.................................................... ..............................................................SACRE
APOLLO ORPHEUS
Baiser #3
FIREBIRD com
V2 Vol5 Vol?? PETRUSHKA
PULCINELLA SYM in C PULCINELLA
SYM-C SOWindInstr 3 solo clarinet #4
Russ.peasant Ch. Concertino picasso PULCINELLA
NOCES Pastorale Piano Concerto Baiser
SOLDAT Dances Conc.
#5
APOLLO
V3 Vol7 AGON
Persephone SYM-PSALMS ORPHEUS
King/Stars NOCES
SOWindInstr THRENI #6
Concertino SYM-PSALMS
Octet 3 Russian
MASS
Canticum
V4[/u babel
Greeting Pre.
Star Spangled #7
DUMBARTON Octet
8 Instr. Minis. DUMBARTON
Circus P SYM in C
Scherzo/Russe SYM-3 MVMTS
SCENES DE BALLET
AGON #9
von himmel hoch Duo Concert
Sonata 2P
REQUIEM
Abr+Isc
V5 Elegie
2 suites Snowbird
4 etudes
4 moods
concerto 2P
Ode
Ragtime
Piano Rag
RENARD
V6 #10
RAKES PROGRESS???...RAKES PRGRSS
V7 #8
SOLDAT...SOLDAT
(marsellies) pastorale
(waltz) 3 solo clarinet
(2 sketches)( picasso
Pribkti...Pribkti
Cat/lullaby...Cat/lullaby
(Momentum) RENARD
MASS songs
(dove) songs
CANTICUM Scherzo/russe
Volga
V8
capriccio
CANTATA
septet
3 Shakespeare
Dylan Th.
Abr+Isc
V9 #11
Fireworks JEU
FIREBIRD complete DANSES C
Canon/RussTune SCENES BLLT
4 etudes VARIATI
VARIATIONS capriccio
Concerto in D
V10
Petrushka
le Rossignol
V11
Violin Conc
Ebony cto
MOVEMENTS
songs
songs
songs
FLOOD Vol4
Firebird suite
JEU
SYM-3 MVMTS
fffuuuuuuuuu... that didn't turn out well >:(
I tried to fix... uh boy, this is why I think computers are crap... anyhow, enjoy as much as you can, i may try to color code more, but, oy vey that sucked... hours
ok, I did my best to fix what i could. You can plainly see there are PSALMS, SACRE, SYMPHONIES in ALL 3 PERMUTATIONS... I still haven't figured if they're differing orchestras or whatever... BUT, yes, there IS reason for confusion here.
Thank you snyprrr ::)
scared everyone off? :laugh:
It's actually... quite... beautiful :'(...
Mentioned a few pages back, and picked up today in my local Oxfam charity shop for £1.99:
(https://musicimage.xboxlive.com/catalog/music.album.8D6KGX014XHL/image?locale=es-ar&w=330&h=330)
A strange production altogether, a single disc in a 2-cd fatbox with an empty space for a second non-existent disc. Very good fat booklet though, with lots of interesting information about abandoned other versions. Apparently IS was planning one including pianola and cimbaloms.
And now I've seen the asking-prices for second-hand versions I'm feeling slightly guilty - not quite guilty enough to go and offer Oxfam a bit more, though.
Quote from: DaveF on March 23, 2017, 09:52:45 AM
Mentioned a few pages back, and picked up today in my local Oxfam charity shop for £1.99:
(https://musicimage.xboxlive.com/catalog/music.album.8D6KGX014XHL/image?locale=es-ar&w=330&h=330)
A strange production altogether, a single disc in a 2-cd fatbox with an empty space for a second non-existent disc. Very good fat booklet though, with lots of interesting information about abandoned other versions. Apparently IS was planning one including pianola and cimbaloms.
And now I've seen the asking-prices for second-hand versions I'm feeling slightly guilty - not quite guilty enough to go and offer Oxfam a bit more, though.
Odd, mine is in a regular-sized jewel case, though perhaps a larger case would house the booklet better.
Quote from: DaveF on March 23, 2017, 09:52:45 AM
Mentioned a few pages back, and picked up today in my local Oxfam charity shop for £1.99:
(https://musicimage.xboxlive.com/catalog/music.album.8D6KGX014XHL/image?locale=es-ar&w=330&h=330)
A strange production altogether, a single disc in a 2-cd fatbox with an empty space for a second non-existent disc. Very good fat booklet though, with lots of interesting information about abandoned other versions. Apparently IS was planning one including pianola and cimbaloms.
Maybe it was re-packaged by the re-seller?
It is a singular case of the composer mulling a serial variety of ensemble approaches, to a piece which is masterly in any version.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 22, 2017, 03:34:39 PM
It's actually... quite... beautiful :'(...
But . . . I'm not sure I understand it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2017, 10:48:32 AM
But . . . I'm not sure I understand it.
1) MusicMasters on the left, Koch the blob in the middle, Naxos on the right
I said there was a "mistake" that I "fixed", which includes the formatting, and that rogue "underline". Please disregard the big, wayward "underline", and try to see the "three branches" reaching down the page.
MusicMasters = V
Kochv = Vol
Naxos = #
Then, the color coding is simply to show where the same pieces end up. Most all vocal music has a "bold" and "glow", because I was running out of coloures.
BUT
MY POINT is- look at all the works that seem to have two actually separate recordings, such as 'Pulcinella', Symphony in C, Le Sacre, 'Dumbarton',... one with St.Lukes, the other with either the Philharmonia or the LSO.
OH,BTW- IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT ON YOUR PHONE, DON'T BOTHER, -i CHECKED, AND THE FORMATTING IS SO FD UP (whoops) that it becomes a Kandinsky.
If you look here on the computy, as I am, it looks readable even though the lining up is crooked. It's hard to make these kinds of charts on GMG, with the way the "effects" rock the formatting.
Please let me know if you're seeing the most readable version...
NY/SONY
???/Erato
BerlinSO/DG
MirrorImage, you mentioned the Erato, -has anyone heard all three?
Quote from: snyprrr on March 23, 2017, 03:42:32 PM???/Erato
That recording is with the National Orchestra of France (and it's a good one).
Can you believe all the Strav has disappeared from 3-4 local libraries (only Rattle2CD). So, what has my Stravmania... what did they have today??...
Gurrelieder/Ozawa
Swan lake-Previn
Respighi- Boutique-Dutoit
Bartok-Mandarin0-Boulez/SONY
Debussy 2CD Decca Dutoit
Prokofiev 3/7 Karabits
Glas Music in 12 parts
I can see how the Strav affected the choices
No Strav at the library, mm mm mm...
All the local libraries have become what just seems like babysitter joints.... this county has always treated Classical in the American way, typical 1950s + major local Symphony/Star releases, which there haven't been any in a good long while. :( skynyrd, wooooooo!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 23, 2017, 03:40:24 PM
...BUT
MY POINT is- look at all the works that seem to have two actually separate recordings, such as 'Pulcinella', Symphony in C, Le Sacre, 'Dumbarton',... one with St.Lukes, the other with either the Philharmonia or the LSO.
Ah, yes, indeed. And, you know, if I were not (happily) preoccupied with gearing up for tonight's concert, I'd get on the assignment of comparing, e.g., the earlier-&-later recordings of
Le sacre. My recollection (subject to review) is that the Koch
Symphony of Psalms is much an improvement on the Music Masters Vol. 1 performance.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 24, 2017, 02:10:36 AM
if I were not ....( I'd get on the assignment of comparing,
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
we'll keep a light on for ya ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 23, 2017, 03:42:32 PM
NY/SONY
???/Erato
BerlinSO/DG
MirrorImage, you mentioned the Erato, -has anyone heard all three?
and a 4th!!! with the NBC Orchestra!!!... interesting...
Stravinsky
Chailly
Nagano
Gardiner
Craft
They all say that only the IS is "perfect". The more I hear of this work, the more I understand that it is Mozatean, and I can hear how he simply molded all those lines into his own, mid-20th century, style. Reading the reviews and hearing these people argue about singers... SantaFe Listener surely has ideas... I wonder if it makes a difference.
Are there bits of TRP that snyprrr can enjoy, or will he still think he's listening to "opera"?? I even sped through 'Persephone' last night, more to my liking...
I'm going to have to pull the plug on this IS Mania here before I start obsessing on Operas,... really...
LE ROSSIGNOL- Boulez or Conlon???
Quote from: snyprrr on March 24, 2017, 06:08:12 AM
LE ROSSIGNOL- Boulez or Conlon???
You don't want to consider
Craft?! 0:)
[asin]B000AMMSLM[/asin]
Quote from: snyprrr on March 22, 2017, 03:34:39 PM
It's actually... quite... beautiful :'(...
...in an OCD kinda way, maybe ;-)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2017, 10:35:07 AM
Maybe it was re-packaged by the re-seller?
It is a singular case of the composer mulling a serial variety of ensemble approaches, to a piece which is masterly in any version.
Donor in this case - but no, all the paper inserts are clearly right for the 2-CD case, so that end-on one half reads "STRAVINSKY: LES NOCES" and the other half "PÉTER EÖTVÖS". Strange. And the amazing thing about the 1917 version is how similar the orchestral sounds are to those of the percussion in the later version - the bell-strokes at the end are something like piccolo + triangle + tambourine. As though he already had the percussion sounds in his head and was "orchestrating" them.
Quote from: DaveF on March 23, 2017, 09:52:45 AM
... with lots of interesting information about abandoned other versions. Apparently IS was planning one including pianola and cimbaloms.
Sorry,
Dave, I missed this post of yours.
Actually, IS managed to complete scenes 1 and 2 of this "intermediate" (1919) version. The problem was the synchronizing of the pianola with the rest of the performers (well, I suppose the composer should have seen
that one coming from the beginning :D ). The good news is that
Robert Craft and
René Bosc recorded what's available of this 1919 version (the latter using some MiDi technology in lieu of the pianola)...
Mass (1948)
So, we're gearing on down here, and it's time to crack open the 'Sacred Works', which I've managed to hold at bay during this process. First up is the 'Mass', which, as I recall, is the most "boring" of the big Choral Works. So, am I ready? OK, here goes...
Wow, well, I kind of didn't expect that. First, I was much more attuned to accepting the piece, but, then, I was expecting a very strict, Latin-like monotony, but, I was surprised at the get-go by the instrumental introduction followed by the Kyrie. Then, wow, the Gloria blew my socks off (Karl), with such wonderful voices. And so on, I was mightily impressed that I enjoyed the piece immensely! Waddaya know?
I really like the 1960 sound, the performance, and the understated quality- with, again, a very up front recording. But, I thought I might find a "better" one out there on YT. Well, Bernstein didn't really cut it, the Pokrovsky was very earthy (EDIT(that was actually Reuss performance) and a nice foil to the 1960, and the Craft sounded very much like the 1960 but with... well, I'm not going to say "better" sound, because the bald 1960 sound really is the white stone cold truth of it all. I'm not sure how I would take to the Hyperion disc's legendary hall of mirrors sound...
The Dove Descending
Had it on repeat for the last twenty minutes... as a Serial (is it?, right) Work, one can really just play it over and over... niiice
Quote from: snyprrr on March 24, 2017, 07:47:40 PM
Mass (1948)
So, we're gearing on down here, and it's time to crack open the 'Sacred Works', which I've managed to hold at bay during this process. First up is the 'Mass', which, as I recall, is the most "boring" of the big Choral Works. So, am I ready? OK, here goes...
Wow, well, I kind of didn't expect that. First, I was much more attuned to accepting the piece, but, then, I was expecting a very strict, Latin-like monotony, but, I was surprised at the get-go by the instrumental introduction followed by the Kyrie. Then, wow, the Gloria blew my socks off (Karl), with such wonderful voices. And so on, I was mightily impressed that I enjoyed the piece immensely! Waddaya know?
I really like the 1960 sound, the performance, and the understated quality- with, again, a very up front recording. But, I thought I might find a "better" one out there on YT. Well, Bernstein didn't really cut it, the Pokrovsky was very earthy and a nice foil to the 1960, and the Craft sounded very much like the 1960 but with... well, I'm not going to say "better" sound, because the bald 1960 sound really is the white stone cold truth of it all. I'm not sure how I would take to the Hyperion disc's legendary hall of mirrors sound...
The Dove Descending
Had it on repeat for the last twenty minutes... as a Serial (is it?, right) Work, one can really just play it over and over... niiice
There's a nicely performed
Mass on this disc:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71KZgkulQHL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on March 24, 2017, 03:06:56 PM
The good news is that Robert Craft and René Bosc recorded what's available of this 1919 version (the latter using some MiDi technology in lieu of the pianola)...
So they did, thank you. Looks to be just as rare now as the Eötvös - although Qobuz have it as a high-res or CD-quality download. I may just grab the two
Noces movements, which are available individually.
Boulez Box and Rattle Symphonies fiiinally arrived... oh, giggles... listening to the middle movement of '3 Movements' in both first- don't want to go too fast... both recordings (in the middle/last mvmts) sounding as transparent as one could want, performances of no questioning. Maazel as good.
I'm holding off on 'Psalms' for wine+cheese night...
I think I can finally make peace with Symphony of Psalms. I just heard the samples of Herreweghe's Pentatone recording and... and... and... I can hear everything I want to hear in the intro- the whooping horn- and I can hear the oboe solo into the abyss pretty well. AND the pianos are up front! For the first time ever?? It really adds a new sound here.
Anyhow, I think this might be the 'Psalms' for me.
I'm also reevaluating the Simon Preston- those boys' voices really do make a difference (especially in the 'Mass').
Quote from: snyprrr on March 26, 2017, 07:58:48 AM
I think I can finally make peace with Symphony of Psalms. I just heard the samples of Herreweghe's Pentatone recording and... and... and... I can hear everything I want to hear in the intro- the whooping horn- and I can hear the oboe solo into the abyss pretty well. AND the pianos are up front! For the first time ever?? It really adds a new sound here.
Anyhow, I think this might be the 'Psalms' for me.
I'm also reevaluating the Simon Preston- those boys' voices really do make a difference (especially in the 'Mass').
What about the contrabassoon 8)
Ebony Concerto (1945)
I held off on this until the BoulezBox arrived, which it finally did. Wow, yea, this is actually a very very modern sounding piece, would you call it "cubist"? I think this is the direction Xenakis was heading in- had he lived his last piece would sound just like the EC, imo. Anyhow, sometimes it sounds like IS is building with building blocks, with crayon colors, very bold- maybe like a Kandinsky? A very visual/colorful sounding piece with block/smack rhythms.
What would you say about it? Quite unique, I think...
(also, Boulez's 'Dumbarton' is certainly the most x-rayed I heard, perfect tempo in the 1st, who could ask for more?- oh wait, I could- the only thing missing is the woodsy flavor 'Dumbarton OAKS'- Boulez is timbre perfect, I'd like to hear some more fruitiness in the winds and some more string fluff. Perhaps Marriner or Davis will have a more... British?, old-timey feel? Might have to hear IS here (though, his Italian recording is waaay too fast in the 1st))
Quote from: arpeggio on March 26, 2017, 08:03:22 AM
What about the contrabassoon 8)
obviously the samples don't go to the last note... hopefully it's on YT... yea, I mean, I'm now audition 'Psalms' recordings simply by playing the first "hit" just to hear the placement of the orchestra and the amount of ambience between instrument and mic. No one yet is as up front as IS, but Herreweghe is judged pretty well (I still can't get over how far away Chailly sounds). I'm quite hesitant about listening to these Boulez and Rattle versions... gulp...
ACTUALLY- 'arpeggio'- listen to the Barenboim on YT- I thought I heard detail a little better in that Erato recording, and, Barenboim doesn't really seem to get in the way there. Maybe not a classic recording, but it may be a DarkHorse.
Anyhow, I'm really enjoying my IggyManiaCycle. I can hear how he composes now; I was somewhat dismissive of much IS, but now I'm coming away with almost every work being a groundbreaking masterpiece. I seem to get more worldly knowledge studying him, as opposed to the more non-social Webern (for instance- on a humanitarian level of course, not musically).
I wish I actually had something to say- lol, I'm just passing on my "good feelings, man", haha.
Really enjoyed Haitink's 'Scenes de Ballet' with Berlin. This was a matter of "believing", and I just knew i would get something out of this. MTT's 'Stravinsky in Hollywood' is great 'n' all, but with Philips you don't get a lot of unnecessary ambience, just the band playing perfectly in perfect sound- I almost wish my whole "Box" could be made up of non-Karajan Berlin recordings (though, I just heard his 'Circus Polka' and, lol, it sounds like a nazi goof march, hilarious- "tick tock tick tock"). Anyhow, if you want the absolute best 'Scenes', I'd really think about that 1991 Haitink.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 26, 2017, 07:54:13 AM
Boulez Box and Rattle Symphonies fiiinally arrived... oh, giggles... listening to the middle movement of '3 Movements' in both first- don't want to go too fast... both recordings (in the middle/last mvmts) sounding as transparent as one could want, performances of no questioning. Maazel as good.
I'm holding off on 'Psalms' for wine+cheese night...
Very good.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 27, 2017, 12:35:42 AM
Here's my cow with Stravinsky's so-called "neo-classical" period:
Most of it does not sound even remotely "neo-classical", there is so much polytonality, bits of sharp dissonance, metric modulation, odd time signatures and even sometimes polyrhythms. Of course you can tell that it is influenced in particular by the classical era, but come on it's far cry from "neo-classical" :laugh:
But an influence from the Classical era spiked with a modern language is precisely the definition of neoclassical music.
2 Poems de Paul Verlaine
2 Poems of Konstantin Bal'mont
3 Japanese Lyrics
3 Little Songs
Pribaoutki
Berceuses du chat
4 "Russian" Songs
Tilim-bom
Song of Parasha
Today I finally heard the songs up to 1920's '4 Russian Songs'. Well, I certainly didn't know the accompanying music was so Modernist. Would it be Cubist? Or was that later? Anyhow, 4-5 sets of songs all around 1-2 minutes, very nice- I surprised that I wasn't offended, lol. But you really need these songs to flesh out his Chamber Music.
The Shakespeare, Dylan Thomas, and JFK all belong to the later...
The Song of Parasha is from Mavra, of course.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 27, 2017, 12:35:42 AM
Here's my cow with Stravinsky's so-called "neo-classical" period:
Most of it does not sound even remotely "neo-classical", there is so much polytonality, bits of sharp dissonance, metric modulation, odd time signatures and even sometimes polyrhythms. Of course you can tell that it is influenced in particular by the classical era, but come on it's far cry from "neo-classical" :laugh:
You do know the neoclassical moniker was spawned by Stravinsky's
Pulcinella, that it is an early 20th century musicological neologism,
ergo, it includes all those modernisms as defined? It also is very much about harmony not used as per the old common practice 'function.'
But I am with you as far as its being, yet again as a term coined by a reviewer, writer, some such, as misleading. The style would most appropriately be called neobaroque, since that era is where I.S. and most other neoclassical compers turned to for forms. Bohuslav Martinů and a few others also used Renaissance forms (about which Webern, too, was well informed:-) There is little or none of the neoclassical all redolent of the height of the classical era, either procedures or forms.
My pet peeve is where the pop music genre label makers have appropriated 'neoclassical' from the classical lexicon of terms while ignoring its actual meaning as defined, instead referring to any pop music that remotely has the sound of 'classical chord progression' as 'neoclasical,' lol. Of course, the exponential rate of genres and sub-genres in pop music is so rapid that 'they' do have to grasp at straws in order to come up with some new defining terms.
Stravinsky is one of those composers whose neoclassical period often leaves me cold. Of course, the music written before it, is astonishing.
One of my favorite Stravinsky pieces, period:
http://www.youtube.com/v/LudJWiMmZBY
And with score:
http://www.youtube.com/v/DFTszVZ0v34
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 29, 2017, 06:30:27 AM
And with score:
http://www.youtube.com/v/DFTszVZ0v34
two different works Karl???? Ginko is your friend ;)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 28, 2017, 04:05:04 PM
The Song of Parasha is from Mavra, of course.
of course
Listened to a couple of minutes of the Porkovsky(?) 'Les Noces'... aye aye aye, my ears!!... lol, wow,... no... I can't take it (runs screaming from the room)... it's a weapon!!... sooo hallucinatory and cartoonish it could drive one mad... Bernstein sounds like patty-cake by comparison... it's like an enema with akvavit!!!!
Quote from: Alberich on March 29, 2017, 06:01:34 AM
Stravinsky is one of those composers whose neoclassical period often leaves me cold. Of course, the music written before it, is astonishing.
a
Quote from: Alberich on March 29, 2017, 06:01:34 AM
Stravinsky is one of those composers whose neoclassical period often leaves me cold. Of course, the music written before it, is astonishing.
Apollo and Orpheus leave you cold? And the Symphonies? Of course, Pulcinella is a different story...
btw- So- Pulcinella IS the ONLY place one will find Stravinsky "wig music"? I mean, THAT FORM of NeoClassicism... obviously 'Le Baiser' is modeled on a different type of re"hash", and the 'Dumbarton' is Bach, and The Rake is "elizabethan", ... and then the Mass would be NeoSacred...
My point is- "NeoClassicism" doesn't necessarily mean it HAS to sound like faux Bach (but, it mostly does- and then when The Beatles et al did it they used the harpsichord to strengthen the idea (and the costumes)
NeoClassicism in Pop really only lasted one year, eh? 1967-
I'm just saying there's IS NeoClass I like (Apollo), and some I don't (Pulcinella)... it's the "obvious" kind (the latter) that always seems to grate (cue some Martinu...)
I do think IS can be credited for re-inventing the C chord (with those splayed dispositions).
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 29, 2017, 06:54:40 AM
That's right 8)
par for the course :laugh:
I MUST draw your attention to the Alexej Gorlatch SONY release of the Piano Concerto and Capriccio. It IS the best I've ever heard... the sound... and his playing is phenomenal for the pieces... oh, the winds in the PC can all be heard for a change... anyhow, had to gush
Quote from: snyprrr on March 29, 2017, 07:06:51 AM
Apollo and Orpheus leave you cold? And the Symphonies? Of course, Pulcinella is a different story...
Often leaves me cold. I like Orpheus and Symphony in three movements.
Quote from: Alberich on March 29, 2017, 07:16:23 AM
Often leaves me cold. I like Orpheus and Symphony in three movements.
Tried
Duo concertant?
Yes. Did not make much of an impression on me.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 29, 2017, 07:06:51 AM
of course
Listened to a couple of minutes of the [Pokrovsky] 'Les Noces'... aye aye aye, my ears!!... lol, wow,... no... I can't take it (runs screaming from the room)... it's a weapon!!... sooo hallucinatory and cartoonish it could drive one mad... Bernstein sounds like patty-cake by comparison... it's like an enema with akvavit!!!!
FTFY . . . your ears are right, here, and
an enema with akvavit is a phrase which will endure in musicological circles as long as
Les noces is discussed . . . .
Quote from: Alberich on March 29, 2017, 07:16:23 AM
Often leaves me cold. I like Orpheus and Symphony in three movements.
Well, all right!
I would get RP just to hear some IS harpsichord. I just noticed that the instrumentation for RP is very "Mozart", and I know it's based on such things. Is the music really sooooo conservative?
The more I keep trying to talk myself into his Operas the more I resist. I think I'm there and then I refresh my memory on YT and realize I don't want. Just don't want. :(
L'Histoire du Soldat
Eh, I'm just not warming up to this trumpet/violin/bass drum idiom. The only part that spoke to me was the slow clarinet movement. The rest sounds like... Fellini? That off-beat bass drum just reminds me of oom-pah... the only version that had a truly scintillating trumpet was the Cocteau, but I'm definitely not ready for the full monty here.
I have Boulez and Maazel, and both sound about the same. How can I expect any other to open this up for me? It's still going to be the same movements... maybe I've heard too many "devil and the musician" things to want to hear more of that.
What? Would I like 'Wozzeck'? Isn't that like Soldiers Tale+Petrouchka??
anyhow...
Quote from: Alberich on March 29, 2017, 07:26:40 AM
Yes. Did not make much of an impression on me.
Stick to Wagner then. Problem solved. :)
I never said I don't like Stravinsky's music, merely that I don't like every single work that he ever wrote. He is one of my favorite Russian composers.
Quote from: Alberich on April 02, 2017, 09:48:47 AM
I never said I don't like Stravinsky's music, merely that I don't like every single work that he ever wrote. He is one of my favorite Russian composers.
Take it easy, man. I'm joking around with you. ::)
Quote from: Alberich link=topic=167.msg1051711#msg1051711 date=149080 I like Orpheus and Symphony in three movements.
/quote]
You like the "cool" Stravinsky, right before he turned Neo-Elizabethan. Most people shouldn't like ALL Stravinsky, right?, he's got so many phases. I like the coolness of those works. Why doesn't 'Symphony in C' get any love?
Not sure! Let me give 'er a fresh listen.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 03, 2017, 03:58:15 AM
Not sure! Let me give 'er a fresh listen.
I'm starting to get real tired of having to make excuses for why no one seems to be able to give IS's recordings of the 3 Symphonies a run for their money. Time after time I hear the same "mistakes": overly ambient auditoriums and more distant mics, too fast/too slow, over fussed,... just a whole slew of things to criticize...
1) I just heard Solti's Chicagoans totally train crash the 4th of 'in C', right when things are getting going. They recover, but, wow, what a desperate 4 seconds!
2) I'm actually starting to leans towards MTT in the "3". They say he has no spine here, but I'm hearing things more positively.
3) btw Karl- WHAT OF BOULEZ'S "UNFORGIVABLE" IN 'PSALMS'?? Not sure I'm hearing "almost twice as fast", though, I DO hear how slow Rattle takes it.
4) LOLOLOLOL- Markevitch's 'Psalms'.... oooooo.... that horn entry :o ??? :o ???... wow, true Russian playing there, eh? Otherwise, he's got a pretty good n creepy 'Psalms'.
5) Ashkenazy is too serious in the 2 Symphonies, as opposed to Dutoit, who has the closest to what I like- even though his oboe in 'in C' isn't all that up front (as well as Davis's LSO).
6) Rattle's 3 Symphonies are 'live', so, one has to give some leeway there- he IS uber fussy, ... I can take it but I wish it flowed more...
7) Davis LSO vs Davis BRSO??? the latter remake, as usual, doesn't live up to the ferocity of the early
8) Karajan in 'in C' makes it sound like gold, - I like his the best, but the piece has more to offer than just his "perfect" reading...
9) prefer Dutoit's SuisseRomande to Jarvi's (which is mostly let down by the cavernous recording)
IS THERE PIANO in the very beginning of '3 Movements'??
Quote from: snyprrr on April 03, 2017, 07:57:59 AM
2) I'm actually starting to leans towards MTT in the "3". They say he has no spine here, but I'm hearing things more positively.
I do like that recording very well.
As for
Symphony in C specifically, I am aware that this has the look of damning with faint praise, but I like it perfectly well 8)
Again, probably because I heard the
Symphony in Three Mvts live played by the
Clevelanders, that one is an old favorite. I don't want to seem to denigrate the
Symphony in C either because (a) it is other than the
Symphony in Three Mvts, yet (b) there are certain family resemblances between the twain. I like that it is both somewhat alike and different. And yet I do not at present have the personal enthusiasm for the
Symphony in C, which I do for the other.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 03, 2017, 08:36:14 AM
I do like that recording very well.
As for Symphony in C specifically, I am aware that this has the look of damning with faint praise, but I like it perfectly well 8)
Again, probably because I heard the Symphony in Three Mvts live played by the Clevelanders, that one is an old favorite. I don't want to seem to denigrate the Symphony in C either because (a) it is other than the Symphony in Three Mvts, yet (b) there are certain family resemblances between the twain. I like that it is both somewhat alike and different. And yet I do not at present have the personal enthusiasm for the Symphony in C, which I do for the other.
Si3M has that volcanic opening- it was going to be a "concerto for orchestra", but, the 2nd and 3rd movements are quite wayward imo, I'm not even sure the ending is legit- it just kind of stops in mid gallop- I mean, I like them fine, and the slow mvmt does have a maze-like quality...
But, the themes in SiC are pretty clear, and I certainly love that ending, with the lone string chord at the end (fav all-time IS moment, but only in his recording are the strings full).
THE THING IS- with IS conducting, I can always "smell the autumn leaves" and see the horses and feel the "new air" in the country. In SiC, all the places that the horns are calling, with IS you really feel that rustic quality. Ashkenazy and Rattle (maybe Solti), not so much. Dutoit and Davis and MTT have it. Karajan has something almost better. But, why people mess with a good thing like this- well, I can see how it happens...
I'm really getting down the the nitty gritty of this IgorMania. I just ordered the Hyperion/O'Donnell for the 'Canticum Sacrum'- 'Herreweghe's 'Threni' will have to wait! That leaves just a really excellent Symphony in C, and maybe another 'Apollo', and either Knussen or Atherton in 'Le Baiser...'.
WHY CAN'T I ENJOY UNTIL I BUY EVERYTHING??? DOH!!!
The Operas will have to be "in case of emergency"... I just don't think I'm ready willing or able - might get Nagano 'Persephone' just to prove my point.
I think I'm having post partem depression here... I thought this would last longer :(... (shakes fist)
Do you have Salonen Apollo/Concerto in D/Cantata?
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 04, 2017, 12:51:23 AM
Agon for me is one of his most addictive works and I personally think it's a masterpiece 10x greater than Le Sacre (top 40 pop charting hit??)
Snyprrr, what would you pick in the fight to the death Agon or The Rite of Spring? ;)
I've been dealing with 'Agon' for a long while; I had the Iwaki/Virgin a looong time ago, and I kept hearing how it's sorta serial, sorta this, sorta that,...
ok
so, to me, it sounds like"happy music',... I don't know why, but I just haven't been enjoying it AT ALL?!?!?! It's probably no doubt because of the performances or recordings. The Rosbaud illuminated it the most- I've just heard that on YT...
I currently have MTT and Craft. The MTT sounds as if it were recorded in a cavern and detail is catastrophically blurred. Craft is pretty uppity, but the balances and much stuff is not to my liking.
I just ordered again the Iwaki...
I know I'm supposed to love the Gielen...
Stravinsky (Craft?) CBS
Stravinsky BBC '58
Rosbaud
Leinsdorf
Mavrinsky
Rosdestvestsky(?)
Atherton LP
Rattle (excepts)
MTT
Craft
"Balanchine" CD (w/Hindemith, etc) Robert Irving cond.
Iwaki
Venzago*** (anyone know about this??)
Ashkenazy
Volkov (Hyperion)
the one on Attacca label
Michael Stern (Denon)
That's a;; I can find now. What do you think?
It's just that it needs good orchestra, and mic, placement. Only the Rosbaud I hear actual separation of units. Shouldn't this piece have the kind of interaction like 'Gruppen'?
People rag on the Craft and MTT. MTT just has the worst sound for this piece. Why would you record this at a distance?
Rosbaus, and maybe Leinsdorf, have given me some pleasure here; I await the Knussen, lol!
HELP!!
Quote from: snyprrr on April 04, 2017, 04:41:11 AM
so, to me, it sounds like"happy music',... I don't know why, but I just haven't been enjoying it AT ALL?!?!?!
I agree, it's happy music. So what's your problem with happy music? 8)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 04, 2017, 10:44:38 PM
Damn it Snyprrr, i think you've lured me in again :laugh:
The thing to keep in mind is:
snypsss knows just what he's doing, all along.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 04, 2017, 10:43:52 PM
I don't think it sounds "happy" at all, it's got more emotionally distance psychosis vibe. It's got huge contrasts and melodies as you expect him to do but it's a really intense score!!! ???
Also, very dissonant. I believe that if it where scored for a large orchestra and not a chamber orchestra, it would have overshadowed Le Sacre. It may very well be his finest ballet ;)
Which of
Le sacre or
Agon was the score which influenced the soundtrack of
Planet of the Apes? 8) 0:) :)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 05, 2017, 04:38:14 AM
Which of Le sacre or Agon was the score which influenced the soundtrack of Planet of the Apes? 8) 0:) :)
At least Sacre "influenced" Star Wars. And when I say "influenced" I mean Williams ripped certain parts right from it, at least that Dune sea part. :D
I do love that soundtrack but boy oh boy... :-[
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 04, 2017, 10:44:38 PM
Damn it Snyprrr, i think you've lured me in again :laugh:
And I made Karl say "Planet of the Apes", just like I had planned! Bwahahahahaha!!! >:D 0:)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 04, 2017, 05:06:03 AM
I agree, it's happy music.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 04, 2017, 10:43:52 PM
I don't think it sounds "happy" at all,
McLaughlin Group.... GO!!
Quote from: snyprrr on April 04, 2017, 04:41:11 AM
Stravinsky (Craft?) CBS
Stravinsky BBC '58
Rosbaud
Leinsdorf
Mavrinsky
Rosdestvestsky(?)
Atherton LP
Rattle (excepts)
MTT
Craft
"Balanchine" CD (w/Hindemith, etc) Robert Irving cond.
Iwaki
Venzago*** (anyone know about this??)
Ashkenazy
Volkov (Hyperion)
the one on Attacca label
Michael Stern (Denon)
now... back to 'Agon'...
When i say "happy music"- it's obvious that's it's supposed to emulate that Greek Athletic Ideal... it's a "game", "competition",... so, all the business of the score is in the service of an athletic(musical) competition... very bow stroke or mouth blow is in the service of a "yo ho, we're manly men of Greece having a grande Olympics of music, isn't everyone having fun" type of virtuosity. Here, DEFINITELY, we have a piece of music, per Igor, that "doesn't "mean" or signify anything other than what's on the table- a musical game/competition... for what?... for kicks!!
So, the "technicals" of 'Agon' are of supreme importance... placement... tempi... CONTRAST between groups...
Maybe that's one of my issues with all the recordings- even though there is such a wide variety of sounds and instruments, certain recordings (say, MTT, with that caverous sound that hides detail) simply turn the whole thing into a big HOMOGENOUS soup, when, this piece in particular, should be knife edged and distinct and heterogenous(?)-
I MEAN, JUST TRY TO FIND THE MANDOLIN in some of these recordings... I mean, really? I thought that would have been the whooole purpose of making a project out of this piece- MAKE SURE every single strand is highlighted, blocked off, delineated,... make the concept of a musical competition AUDIBLE to the audience... HIGHLIGHT THE STRUCTURE!!!
For me, if the element of "play" is not present, then 'Agon' just seems to bore me to tears... yes, it does,... it can be the most ho-hum "Serial" work for me, it just sounds like "Ancient Greek- meets- English renaissance-y" kind of "let's not get too spikey and thorny"
sorry, I was ranting there for a moment :laugh:
I WANT TO LOOOOOOOVE 'Agon'... MTT isn't my guide... Craft sounds a little- uh- overwhelmed?-... Rosbaud gets me there...Leinsdorf is somewhat acceptable...
I dunno- Gielen might be too "I'm such a brainy fellow" for me... I NEED that last ounce of FUN...
Love to hear the Venzago...
Love to hear the Atherton...
Love to hear the Knussen...
Wish that whole Rattle were available (excepts??? really??? for this piece???)aaaahhhh!!!!)...
(btw- you caught me in the middle of a Symphony in C-A-Thon... it's definitely IS, Karajan, Dutoit, MTT, Davis LSO for me...)
pant pant
gasp gasp
(eize on da prize)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 05, 2017, 04:37:06 AM
The thing to keep in mind is: snypsss knows just what he's doing, all along.[/b]
"The only difference between me and a madman is...
I am not mad!" -
Salvador Dali
lol, flattery will only get you a date with my third exwife
COULD SOMEONE TELL ME WHYYYYY Herrewegh'es 'Threni' is soooo much better than Iggy's? Comparing last night and... I guess I just like the charm of the old one? Or, nothing so maddeningly obvious to me as to make me fall to my knees?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 05, 2017, 10:46:34 AM
lol, flattery will only get you a date with my third exwife
COULD SOMEONE TELL ME WHYYYYY Herrewegh'es 'Threni' is soooo much better than Iggy's? Comparing last night and... I guess I just like the charm of the old one? Or, nothing so maddeningly obvious to me as to make me fall to my knees?
Pitch? A sense of line rather than a bunch of dots? Better blend from the soloists and less bleating. Take your pick. It's more musical all around.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 05, 2017, 01:23:19 PM
Pitch? A sense of line rather than a bunch of dots? Better blend from the soloists and less bleating. Take your pick. It's more musical all around.
I was just testing you! ;) Good job 8) $:)
Who here has the most 'Agons'? Agon-y...
Impart some wisdom, oh whomever you are...
Quote from: snyprrr on April 04, 2017, 04:41:11 AM
I've been dealing with 'Agon' for a long while; I had the Iwaki/Virgin a looong time ago [....]
So had I, but . . . I don't remember it at all. Whether that means I was inattentive, or that the account is unmemorable, is a question; my working hypothesis is, that I was inattentive, since there are numerous additional examples of this shortcoming on my part in those dark Buffalo days.
Quite tangential, but less bleating immediately makes me think of one of the soloists in the Craft Gurrelieder . . . .
Quote from: snyprrr on April 05, 2017, 10:46:34 AM
COULD SOMEONE TELL ME WHYYYYY Herreweghe's 'Threni' is soooo much better than Iggy's? Comparing last night and... I guess I just like the charm of the old one? Or, nothing so maddeningly obvious to me as to make me fall to my knees?
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 05, 2017, 01:23:19 PM
Pitch? A sense of line rather than a bunch of dots? Better blend from the soloists and less bleating. Take your pick. It's more musical all around.
Mahlerian and I have discussed this point several times over. We are in agreement about those recordings of the later Stravinsky works from his serial period, or at least are in near total agreement about the later
choral works.
Some of what happened at the time of those recordings with the
Columbia
Symphony
Orchestra (a studio pick-up group of professional musicians who were not one regular symphonic ensemble), is that those musicians were less versed and experienced in the performance of serial music than many a later generation of musicians now are, though they were also far more than 'just adequate.' Too, there was not a tremendous amount of rehearsal time of works which were completely unfamiliar to them, in an idiom with which they were not much familiar, prior the actual recording takes.
Most influential on the result, though, were the involved singers in those recordings. Both chorus and soloists were also looking at works completely unfamiliar to them and they had even less of the security and practice in performing such works as the orchestra did. Training of vocalists was then, and still is, heavily concentrated on the older practice repertoire. More currently, we have later generations of singers who are also well-trained in the modern and contemporary by the time they are through with school and prior their becoming professional; they are both far better versed and comfortably at home with the more-most modern harmonic usage and atonal music.
Mahlerian's
"A sense of line rather than a bunch of dots?" is totally on the money. Those vocalists on the IS recordings were still struggling with this atonal music, and you can hear them, soloist or choristers, laboring through while having to concentrate -- far too much -- on getting it right
interval by interval; such an m.o. is the complete antithesis of what it takes to render a line -- in regards both pitch and rhythm -- as a line: this approach is what produces the slight but audible hesitancy, and that is what is responsible for that 'bleating' quality! This kind of lack is tersely summed up in the old saw, "all the right notes in the right order in the right timing," which is a euphemism / slam for "technically O.K. but not at all necessarily musical."
What does have me so highly valuing almost the entire series of Stravinsky - Columbia recordings (and will continue to keep me valuing them) is not remotely connected to anything I would call sentimental.
Their infinite attraction is the composer knew exactly the tempi and dynamic balance of all parts of the score required to get the material and harmony working as he wanted, and this he got on every recording he made in that series, delivered in full. Even with all the negatives about the recorded later serial works, the omnipresence of these hypercritical, prime and necessary elements are more than a little too difficult to forget or ignore when listening to any recordings by other conductors and musicians.
Best regards
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 08, 2017, 04:25:00 AM
Mahlerian and I have discussed this point several times over. We are in agreement about those recordings of the later Stravinsky works from his serial period, or at least are in near total agreement about the later choral works.
Some of what happened at the time of those recordings with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra (a studio pick-up group of professional musicians who were not one regular symphonic ensemble), is that those musicians were less versed and experienced in the performance of serial music than many a later generation of musicians now are, though they were also far more than 'just adequate.' Too, there was not a tremendous amount of rehearsal time of works which were completely unfamiliar to them, in an idiom with which they were not much familiar, prior the actual recording takes.
Most influential on the result, though, were the involved singers in those recordings. Both chorus and soloists were also looking at works completely unfamiliar to them and they had even less of the security and practice in performing such works as the orchestra did. Training of vocalists was then, and still is, heavily concentrated on the older practice repertoire. More currently, we have later generations of singers who are also well-trained in the modern and contemporary by the time they are through with school and prior their becoming professional; they are both far better versed and comfortably at home with the more-most modern harmonic usage and atonal music.
Mahlerian's "A sense of line rather than a bunch of dots?" is totally on the money. Those vocalists on the IS recordings were still struggling with this atonal music, and you can hear them, soloist or choristers, laboring through while having to concentrate -- far too much -- on getting it right interval by interval; such an m.o. is the complete antithesis of what it takes to render a line -- in regards both pitch and rhythm -- as a line: this approach is what produces the slight but audible hesitancy, and that is what is responsible for that 'bleating' quality! This kind of lack is tersely summed up in the old saw, "all the right notes in the right order in the right timing," which is a euphemism / slam for "technically O.K. but not at all necessarily musical."
What does have me so highly valuing almost the entire series of Stravinsky - Columbia recordings (and will continue to keep me valuing them) is not remotely connected to anything I would call sentimental. Their infinite attraction is the composer knew exactly the tempi and dynamic balance of all parts of the score required to get the material and harmony working as he wanted, and this he got on every recording he made in that series, delivered in full. Even with all the negatives about the recorded later serial works, the omnipresence of these hypercritical, prime and necessary elements are more than a little too difficult to forget or ignore when listening to any recordings by other conductors and musicians.
Best regards
I mean, of course I understand, and agree- I was just trying to talk myself out of the actual purchase. :laugh:I was comparing physical Stravinsky CD with YT Herreweghe, so, maybe that had something to do with it...
'Dumbarton Oaks' Concerto
I just heard, again with new ears, Stravinsky conducting that Swiss-Italian Radio 'Dumbarton', which he takes at breakneck speed, and realize that all the major superstar conductors are taking this waaay too slow. Only Marriner with Los Angeles (mia), Craft, and Colin Davis breathe any life into this music. The OrpheusCE, Dutoit, Hogwood, Saraste, and yes, even Boulez (slowest middle mvmt of them all!) bloat the thing into politer music. This should be played much more like raucous Martinu. I was shocked at how the middle mvmt. gains such character when you play it that fast.
Here are the timings:
IS/CBS 4:20 4:16 5:08
IS/Sw-It 4:16 3:42! 4:43
Craft 4:18 3:48 4:57
MarrinerLA 4:20 4:30 4:40
Davis 4:38 4:27 4:57
Boulez 4:40 5:16 5:17
Orpheus 4:54 4:32 5:26
Dutoit 4:56 4:31 5:29
Hogwood 4:55 4:21 5:31
Babel
A Sermon, A Narrative, & A Prayer
The Flood
Abraham & Isaac
Oy vey!
The only one I might be able to hear again in 'Babel', but only for the Chrismassy Charlton Heston Cheese Factor supplied by... John Colicos? I didn't make it passed the first "number" of 'The Flood', I was making the "do not want" face, sorry.
The other two were equally rough for me, making me think of the cheesy 70s and the TV show 'Planet of the Apes'... maybe how IS influenced all of 'Media Music'... I'm hearing 'Columbo'... oy vey, indeed!
This was definitely the roughest chunk of unpredigested IS I've had to swallow, and it felt like Ipacac, like Social Studies in the 4th grade...
I feel traumatized :(
Maybe I needed to clean my palate before the Final Phase of IgorMania?... just listened again to 'Jeu' and still didn't really like it. :( still got work to do..
Quote from: Alberich on March 29, 2017, 06:01:34 AM
Stravinsky is one of those composers whose neoclassical period often leaves me cold. Of course, the music written before it, is astonishing.
Astonishing, too, is most of the music from his neoclossical period.
Different strokes for different folks.
Quote from: Alberich on March 29, 2017, 07:26:40 AM
Yes. Did not make much of an impression on me.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 02, 2017, 09:25:25 AM
Stick to Wagner then. Problem solved. :)
Well, actually... problem not solved for everybody :D
Phase One: Piano Sonata, Symphonie 'Student/ Classical Phase'
Phase Two: Firebird, Petrouchka, Le Sacre, Le Rossignol (the sum up and move on work?) 'Russian Phase'
Phase Three: Renard, The Soldier's Tale, Ragtime, Piano-Rag Music 'American/ Jazz/ Burleske Phase'
Phase FourA: Pulcinella... this is such a "radical" work, I feel I have to keep it by itself. MAVRA&NOCES holdover from Russian
Phase FourB: Symphonies of Wind Instruments, Octet, Piano Concerto, Piano Sonatat, Serenade 'White Marble NeoC Phase'
Phase Five: Oedipus, Apollo, Fairy's Kiss, Capriccio, SymPsalms, Violin Concerto 'High NeoClassic Phase'
Phase Five cont.: 2 Symphonies, Orpheus, Danses Conc., Scene de Ballet, "Hollywood" pieces 'Mainstream Phase'
Phase Six: Mass, Rake's Progress, Cantata, Shakespeare Songs 'Neo-Elizabethan Phase'
Phase 6-7 transition: Septet, Canticum Sacrum, Agon- from NeoClassic-to-Serial
Phase Seven: Threni, Movements, Variations, Requiem Canticles 'Late Serial Phase'
Quote from: snyprrr on April 11, 2017, 01:24:42 PM
Phase Six: Mass, Rake's Progress, Cantata, Shakespeare Songs 'Neo-Elizabethan Phase'
Phase 6-7 transition: Septet, Canticum Sacrum, Agon- from NeoClassic-to-Serial
Phase Seven: Threni, Movements, Variations, Requiem Canticles 'Late Serial Phase'
The Cantata and Shakespeare Songs also use some serial techniques applied to non-12-tone material, just like the Septet and Agon.
I'd also suggest that
A Sermon, a Narrative, and a Prayer is a better work than you give it credit for, though the Columbia recording is far from ideal.
Reaching the end of my survey...
I'm almost embarrassed to say that 'Scenes de Ballet' is one of my new favorite pieces. But, I've also started listening to as many IS conducted performances as I can, and I'm finding he takes the prize in many works I thought he would not have be so radical in ('Dumbarton' comes to mind).
I've also had to put the brakes on... uh... PURCHASING, lol... I actually CANCELED AN ORDER!!! (Dutoit Symphonies- and then I impulsed MTT Symphonies... so, I consider that a schizo move, so, it must be time to back off and clear the air.)
I also got the Conlon/EMI 'Le Rossignol/ Renard' just to have one of the Operas around to kvetch over, hasn't arrived.
Now I'm starting to get obsessed with the small, trifling works, so, I know it has to be time to get the Big Picture.
A least now I have a concrete understanding of IS through the decades... and the difference between 'Dumbarton' and 'Concerto in D', lol, and just a clearer view of HOW to listen, and what to listen for.
Here's a sample of my Fantasy Releases:
Karajan: Symphony in C, Apollo, Circus Polka DG (omits all the bits I don't like)
Knussen: Agon, Movements, Dumbarton, Septet, Concerto in D DG or Decca
Knussen: Canticum Sacrum & Threni & Indroitus & Elegy to JFK DG
Marriner: Dumbarton, Danses Conc., Concerto Decaa Reissue
Atherton: Agon, Le Baiser Decca
Rattle: Firebird/Apollo-Sym3M/and something else EMI (THERE ARE SOOO MANY Rattle comps., but not one for meeeee)
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 11, 2017, 01:30:30 PM
The Cantata and Shakespeare Songs also use some serial techniques applied to non-12-tone material, just like the Septet and Agon.
I'd also suggest that A Sermon, a Narrative, and a Prayer is a better work than you give it credit for, though the Columbia recording is far from ideal.
1) of course- I just count them there because they have that "English" sound- of course, 'Agon' has an "ethnic" feel to it too, whereas, say, the 'Movements' are definitely in the next category. Yea, maybe I could have delineated a little better there.
2) I guess we wait for Knussen,... again? I mean, I did hit myself with all four of those works at once, probably not a good idea, but I can tell you it will take me a while to get back to them. I still have to try to make it through 'The Flood'. I agree that ASAN&AP had interest, but, let me just wait until the image of Charlton Heston dissolves in my membrance before I try it all alone without the others.
I was in a parking lot with my car door open listening to these works, lol,...
Quote from: snyprrr on April 08, 2017, 04:45:16 PM
'Dumbarton Oaks' Concerto
I just heard, again with new ears, Stravinsky conducting that Swiss-Italian Radio 'Dumbarton', which he takes at breakneck speed, and realize that all the major superstar conductors are taking this waaay too slow. Only Marriner with Los Angeles (mia), Craft, and Colin Davis breathe any life into this music. The OrpheusCE, Dutoit, Hogwood, Saraste, and yes, even Boulez (slowest middle mvmt of them all!) bloat the thing into politer music. This should be played much more like raucous Martinu. I was shocked at how the middle mvmt. gains such character when you play it that fast.
Here are the timings:
IS/CBS 4:20 4:16 5:08
IS/Sw-It 4:16 3:42! 4:43
Craft 4:18 3:48 4:57
MarrinerLA 4:20 4:30 4:40
Davis 4:38 4:27 4:57
Boulez 4:40 5:16 5:17
Orpheus 4:54 4:32 5:26
Dutoit 4:56 4:31 5:29
Hogwood 4:55 4:21 5:31
Seriously, here is one work on which IS and Craft stand in stark relief to the competition, in terms of temp, feeling, and excitement, and actual cool soundsi. What at first sounded shocking (IS/CBS) now sounds correct, and Boulez and Norrington on up and down the roster, all sound bloated and polite by comparison. IS takes the middle movement quickly, and it makes perfect sense what he's doing, you actually hear the "note games" being played and bounced about. With the rest, this becomes a very odd "slow movement" indeed-and most, if not all, take it a minute more than the Composer, and Craft, and the effect is... catastrophic. Here is one work in which I simply do not understand what is going through these "purist" conductors' minds, when they end up with such gothic horrors. It seems now ever new version of this I find, like, say, Kegel, is even slower than the last.
The same seems to go for the
Concerto in D, but here we have more successes than failures (Karajan's being the primary citation in the negative column, for his "Teutonic" rhythms)
I have also noticed this with '
Danses Concertantes'. Norrington is just genteel... it "sounds" nice and great, but, as they say, it's not Stravinsky.
An interesting point regarding IS's "conductor-proof" mus...ic..... drrr,... I'm sitting here and just lost my point... ginko, where are you??!!... totally forgot...
Quote from: snyprrr on April 11, 2017, 01:47:07 PMKarajan: Symphony in C, Apollo, Circus Polka DG (omits all the bits I don't like)
Karajan's recording of Jeu de Cartes made in the 1950's with EMI is absolutely not to be missed.
Le Baiser de la Fee
I was comparing the Village Fete between the two, and I noticed that Jarvi hit that one climax @2:30? with full Tchaikovskian Romanticism, whereas Knussen came off as very mannered and, well, NeoClassic, as if he were being very trimmed and pruned and observing every minute detail. Jarvi's having a ball, on the other hand.
Everyone says Knussen's is the "most correct". And I can hear why this would be. So, now, my question- is Jarvi's approach wrong? I mean, I'm feeling things with him I'm not even thinking about with Knussen's more methodological approach. Jarvi is playing it for all it's worth; Knussen is doing Science.
Is Jarvi valid, or would he be "interpreting Stravinsky", whereas Knussen is conducting "perfect Stravinsky". Is Jarvi conducting Tchaikovsky? Since both seem to have a lot of other strengths in common, including tempi, the "expressive" quality is the only difference, and it is actually quite big.
Frankly, the two seem to compliment one another. I do appreciate Knussen's restraint, but I do love Jarvi's joy!
eh?
The crowd is hushed as we await the World snyprrr Premiere of Stravinsky's first opera, 'Le Rossignol', or, as it's known by it's true Russian title, 'The Nightingale'. The orchestra is that of the Paris Opera, and our conductor is James Conlon. Natalie Dessay stars.
snyprrr doest really know what he's in for, so, we'll be monitoring his reactions, here at the MSNBC Entertainment Desk. Hello, I'm Dick Butkis, and this is my colleague, James Proctor. (Hello, all) So, we're almost at curtain. The air is charged with the thrill of discovery!
Please take this quick pre-Premiere 10 minute Ante-Act, and freshen up that cognac, or... do whatever it is you do :P...
Quick, it's about to begin!
shhh.....
Quote from: snyprrr on April 16, 2017, 05:06:58 PM
The crowd is hushed as we await the World snyprrr Premiere of Stravinsky's first opera, 'Le Rossignol', or, as it's known by it's true Russian title, 'The Nightingale'. The orchestra is that of the Paris Opera, and our conductor is James Conlon. Natalie Dessay stars.
snyprrr doest really know what he's in for, so, we'll be monitoring his reactions, here at the MSNBC Entertainment Desk. Hello, I'm Dick Butkis, and this is my colleague, James Proctor. (Hello, all) So, we're almost at curtain. The air is charged with the thrill of discovery!
Please take this quick pre-Premiere 10 minute Ante-Act, and freshen up that cognac, or... do whatever it is you do :P...
Quick, it's about to begin!
shhh.....
OK, a nice, atmospheric opening, reminiscent of the double basses in Firebird. I start thinking deep dark green,... woods,... swaying greenery,... it definitely seems to be "night".
Oooo.... there's Szymanowski is one, rapturous early crescendo,... now I'm hearing Sibelius...
...singing..
It's a man,... pretty good, interesting, ... he's a fisherman, and I can hear him throwing his reel, IS likes the "sound effects"! It's definitely a little understand, but I can tell it's Opera.
Now the lady is singing... vocalese,... this singer has a little nasal quality in the high note, but I can tell the part must be very taxing.
I just finished a more crowded scene near the middle of Act1. Now the man is singing again,... he must have lost the lady-bird?
ACT2
Oh, OK,... here's the Chant du Rossingnol music! But with full vocals! Here, let me Post, and listen more...
Quote from: snyprrr on April 16, 2017, 05:27:47 PM
OK, a nice, atmospheric opening, reminiscent of the double basses in Firebird. I start thinking deep dark green,... woods,... swaying greenery,... it definitely seems to be "night".
Oooo.... there's Szymanowski is one, rapturous early crescendo,... now I'm hearing Sibelius...
...singing..
It's a man,... pretty good, interesting, ... he's a fisherman, and I can hear him throwing his reel, IS likes the "sound effects"! It's definitely a little understand, but I can tell it's Opera.
Now the lady is singing... vocalese,... this singer has a little nasal quality in the high note, but I can tell the part must be very taxing.
I just finished a more crowded scene near the middle of Act1. Now the man is singing again,... he must have lost the lady-bird?
ACT2
Oh, OK,... here's the Chant du Rossingnol music! But with full vocals! Here, let me Post, and listen more...
I'm just starting the mechanical bird music ending Act2. Yea, Act2 had lots of interest with the music itself, and the singing just worked along... this music is definitely is stark contrast to the opening, written before Firebird, and this, written after Sacre. It really makes for a fantasic... phantasmagorical ...
The sense of a fantasy play,... TV drama 1973... very cool mood... almost in an underground cavern...
ACT3
Nice moody music with offstage chorus of ghosts! Cool!
Whatever nasal quality the lady singer had at first is now gone. She sounds pretty good...
I keep thinking Miraculous Mandarin, but it's a different story... Europeans imitating Asian... le vogue...
Well...
I'm nearing the ending "solemn march"... this Act3 has been quite subdued, going back to the earlier style in Act1. But the music is very spare here. And it... well, now it's over,... that "summing up song" kind of made me feel like, hey, isn't there supposed to be more? How can this be an Opera if it's not 2 hours long?
Odd.
But, overall, the Act2 music really attracts one, and the Act1 build up is nice. Act3 starts off well, but then I start to wonder, What happened? It's just over. I thought, with such good music in Act2, there's got to be more of a payoff with Act4 and Act5. So,... huh...
That felt more like a Song Cycle in Three Parts, or something. I definitely heard the Debussy/Szymanowski, forest folk tale atmosphere. I found it easier to like than either Oedipus or Persephone, which i thought intereresting gg
So, there was my 2nd Opera (Die Soldaten first), yaay!!
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 16, 2017, 05:40:29 PM
The part that gets me doing a standing ovation when the opera is still going ;)
Yea, as soon as it started, I was like, yay! I'll have to listen again...
Song of the Volga Boatman
Suite No.2
Suite No.1
Tango
Circus Polka
4 Moods
Scherzo a la Russe
The Star Spangled Banner
Greeting Prelude
8 Miniatures
Fanfare for a New Theatre
Canon (on a Popular Russian Tune)
I'm not sure what I've left out of this grouping. A lot of this music tickles the same bone that Ives's music of a similar vein does, it's all just a lot of fun.I really like the 'Greeting Prelude', it has that skyscraper-in-a-minute energy, not a real trifle in my view- he seems to have put a lot of care into it. And the 'Circus Polka', and I only hear this explicitly in the Karajan, has what sounds hilariously like goose-stepping naaazis.
And I just reacquainted myself with the 'Scherzo a la Russe' yesterday, and was again taken aback by my ignorant prejudgment of it- to me it didn't really sound as much Russian, as "1940s"- always interesting how the Russian and American Composers were claiming the same language as their own (I specifically hear this between Roy Harris and Shostakovich).
The '2 Suites' and the '4 Etudes', all taken from the string quartet and piano pieces, just don't do much for me, but the do give a good orchestra the opportunity to shine in a great recording. It's just that... meh... I'd rather just hear all these pieces together on one recital, with, like, Chailly and the Concertgebouw: that way, it's not really about the music anymore (specifically in these pieces), it's just the glories of music-making.
Finally, the 'Canon' I find magisterial, but I see here that MTT takes :49, and some others take 1:20- the MTT seems to me the way to go for excitement; it's not bad the slower way, but, hey, why not record two versions?
I like Stravinsky's Miniatures a lot better than some other Composers' trifles- good show! 8)
And so we will be bringing IgorMania2017 to a close tonight. Nothing is planned, per se. I'm trying to stave of exhaustion, and I see the community has had their fill and isn't interested at the moment. Yes, I believe we are a group that goes from one ever burgeoning carcass to the next, only to come back later and find fresh meat!
I thought I did well, Buying wise- only a couple of (maybe) mistakes. I also, thankfully, didn't feel the need to Buy EVERYTHING!! Satisfaction is an odd premise, indeed, hmm! ::)
In terms of Personal Evolution, I can't see how he is not the Premiere Composer of the 20th Century, with the lode of Avant Composers spewing forth from his self inflicted wound in 1966 of "non-Composition". And, because his Works List is practically quite small, all of my other fav Composers still have a good chance to make a comeback in my favor.
Well, I haven't heard the charge of "Fraud!" leveled against him,... seems legit.
I sit here, surrounding by the manifestation of IgorMania: three separate piles- 1909-1919 (minus the other, previous SacrePile, over here to my left). 1930-1948. 1943-1966. I struggle what to listen to for Closing Night...
Damiens/Adda and Antony Pay/Chailly-Decca play it swell enough, but, what's it doing that should be noting? Am I just at the complete other end of the "NeoClassic xplosionEof1919" that it just sounds like noodling? Was it riotous upon Premiere?... I can't see that... are they just meant to be played by its dedicatee, or, are they intended to be something... more?...
I believe I have finally gotten to the bottom and back concerning the ins and outs of the hot mess that is the current state of Stravinsky: The Robert Craft Edition.
As we all know, he embarked on his Cycle in 1992, and, to be clear, he basically completed one Cycle, not Complete: no 'Le Chant du Rossignol', 'Mavra', or any of the early works, save the 'Fireworks'. But, and including many rarities, I counted, and he really did basically cover the Cycle.
THEN
Then, concurrently, beginning with, I believe, the Koch 'Pulcinella' (unless it's the suite, but I'm pretty sure it's the whole thing), a 2nd Cycle begins to emerge.
The old 11 Volume MusicMasters set ended, with most of Vols. 10-11 still to be reissued, including much else. But, I'm starting to think we've forgotten those fist few Volumes.. What I found was that about 80% of Vols. 1-3 we RE-RECORDED with a variety of sources. All of the MusicMasters series uses the St.Luke orchestra, up until about Volume 8. Then it's the Philharmonia, which continues, along with the LSO, when Koch continues the Cycle.
So, anyhow, here, at first, are all the works that Craft recorded twice, and please correct me.
MusicMasters Vol.1
Fanfare for A New Theatre
Oedipus Rex (remade on Koch)
Requiem Canticles (remade on Naxos in 2006?!)
Symphony of Psalms (remade on Koch-Naxos)
Symphony in Three Movements (remade on Koch-Naxos)
The Rite of Spring (remade on Koch-Naxos; then, again remade a third time on Naxos)
MusicMasters Vol.2
Symphony in C (remade on Koch-Naxos)
Russian Peasant Choruses
Les Noces (remade on Koch-Naxos)
Pulcinella (remade on Koch-Naxos)
MusicMasters Vol.3
Persephone
King of the Stars (remade on Koch, but this rec. was reissued on Naxos)
Symphonies of Wind Instruments (remade on Koch-Naxos)
Concertino (remade on Koch)
Octet reissued on Naxos
The only others, I believe, from the rest of the MM series that were actually remade later, are, 'The Soldier's Tale', Violin Concerto, and, it appears,' Abraham and Isaac'. The 'Soldat' on the Naxos reissue is the MM. And, of course, most of the solo Piano, and the smaller Chamber Music (Epitaphium, Double Canon) doesn't count here.
So, mostly, none of those earlier MM versions were used in the Naxos reissues. So, that's a pretty sizable 2nd Cycle starting there!, but, have been able to compare? I think I was able to find the 1st mvmt. of Symphony in 3M on YT, and, it was very hard to tell, but it seemed the later, Koch-Naxos Philharmonia version, had just a touch finer sound. But, the interpretation seemed like it could have been the same- it was very hard to tell, but it seemed two different performances.
Anyhow, I thought it was exciting... Karl?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 18, 2017, 03:15:01 PM
And so we will be bringing IgorMania2017 to a close tonight.
But no, 'tis only the beginning.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 22, 2017, 06:49:41 AM
But no, 'tis only the beginning.
currently in the weeds with Craft, oy vey- did you check that previous Post with all the duplicates?
btw- the Iwaki 'Agon'... one of those you gotta crank it up to 10, 1989 Virgin recordings... no distortion at 10, very nice, great musical performance, but I'm shocked shocked I tell you that engineers at the dawn of time there made records this way... I guess Telarc influence?, but, the bass drum, at 10, sounds just fine.
I just order Michael Stern conducting the Tonhalle Zurich on Denon (Firebird 1945, Agon, Jeu de Cartes). I'm really taking a chance here that the Denon reputation for spectacular recordings, with a (how are they? all I see is Zinman Beethoven/Mahler) decent European orchestra... I hope.
Then there's this maddening Venzago recording on Pan, with the Basel bunch, doing Ode, Agon, Monumentum, Piano Concerto, also from 1995... but, it's expensive OOP and I don't know how to read Venzago's way with IS.
other curious finds: Andras Mihaly/Hungaroton- Soldat, Renard, Ragtime, Japanese, solo clarinet...
Rolling on the floor laughing after reading some of Iggy's Mussolini comments... oy,
frankly, quite refreshing :laugh:,... no wonder he didn't get any film jobs, lol
Quote from: snyprrr on April 22, 2017, 09:44:22 AM
I just order Michael Stern conducting the Tonhalle Zurich on Denon (Firebird 1945, Agon, Jeu de Cartes). I'm really taking a chance here that the Denon reputation for spectacular recordings, with a (how are they? all I see is Zinman Beethoven/Mahler) decent European orchestra... I hope.
Still waiting in anticipation here.
Sarge seemed to like it, though not necessarily
better than the
Craft.
Well, might as well update... IgorMania2017 has had an extended run. and we are now just going back and looking at works in more depth. I have pretty much run out of purchasing necessities (always the most fun), and am simply trying to stave off getting every release of, say, 'Circus Polka' (one of my new favs).
I never thought I'd be going off with Iggy, but, it's happened. Through him, I see Xenakis, Messaien, and a host of other favs clearer. He eclipses Hindemith, my old fav mid-century go-to, Malipiero, Milhaud, Bloch, Copland,... I hear him in all of it now.
TWO COMPOSERS I can hear their whole output in just a phrase by Iggy:
Philip Glass, and Schnittke. I have just been hearing all the Minimalist aspects of IS, and, sure enough, I can hear the genesis of Glass's sound clear as day.
I'm also seeing IS as the charlatan par excellence, the businessman, writing music specific to the need, not from his own gushing fount- every note is important, cause ya gotta get paid, yo!! ;) His whole copyright - revisions- the feeling of "my creations",- he just had that "self worth" that seems such a winning personal way of going about it. Arguing...
Yea, I'm not that boned up, sigh...
I defend my use of the term "charlatan",... not as levied against Cage, it's a different kind,... but, I point to all the charlatans in his works (Pulcinella, the devil., etc)... the wily, the subtle
the serpent was the most subtle beast of the field...
was he "the devil"? (so nice and polite?)
And, yes, I am NOT taking every note he wrote as "Gospel"... I still find some of his actual process kind of clunky (though, I like it, as it shows he's human), many of his pieces seem to be of no real consequence (piano music), but, of course, that is ON PURPOSE, so, I do admire his balls to write 17th century stuff at the height of the UltraModernism craze (cuz, at that point, that WAS UltraM).
haven't been able to break into any other Composers yet... he does make lots of music go into the toilet for me...
ok, lunchtime
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 03, 2017, 08:35:08 AM
Still waiting in anticipation here. Sarge seemed to like it, though not necessarily better than the Craft.
The Craft just has this recording where you hear EVERYTHING on the same level, which no other recording offers. I just think (or hear) a lack of "the game afoot"... with Stern, for some reason, I hear the ping=pong effect to a greater degree (the music being thrown about the groups)... the Stern recording is more natural, so, not everything is of equal value- you MUST crank it up some (don't worry, it's a speaker friendly recording).
The Craft is essential for many reasons- I'm going to put Stern in the mix,... and I will give Iwaki credit (it's just that with that Virgin recording, you haaave to turn it up to 10 to hear it correctly) for having a verrry competitive conception...
And, because the Craft and Stern help in the clarity dept., I'm starting to like the MTT a lot more (the spacious recording does make hearing detail somewhat squinty, but, when you realize that you're hearing ambience, and not notes, one can adjust)...
Either way, I'm still sure you will find competitive for your attentions... let me find Sarge's reply and see what he thinks...
Meanwhile, I ought to listen afresh to the Gielen.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 03, 2017, 09:03:43 AM
The Craft just has this recording where you hear EVERYTHING on the same level, which no other recording offers. I just think (or hear) a lack of "the game afoot"... with Stern, for some reason, I hear the ping=pong effect to a greater degree (the music being thrown about the groups)... the Stern recording is more natural, so, not everything is of equal value- you MUST crank it up some (don't worry, it's a speaker friendly recording).
The Craft is essential for many reasons- I'm going to put Stern in the mix,... and I will give Iwaki credit (it's just that with that Virgin recording, you haaave to turn it up to 10 to hear it correctly) for having a verrry competitive conception...
And, because the Craft and Stern help in the clarity dept., I'm starting to like the MTT a lot more (the spacious recording does make hearing detail somewhat squinty, but, when you realize that you're hearing ambience, and not notes, one can adjust)...
Either way, I'm still sure you will find competitive for your attentions... let me find Sarge's reply and see what he thinks...
I have not yet gone back to the
Gielen; but the
Stern is wonderful, a startlingly lyrical reading of a work for which one does not necessarily expect it. Excellent suggestion,
snypsss.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2017, 06:31:41 AM
I have not yet gone back to the Gielen; but the Stern is wonderful, a startlingly lyrical reading of a work for which one does not necessarily expect it. Excellent suggestion, snypsss.
aw shucks ;), tears of joy, Karl, tears of joy!! :'( :) :'( :)... now, if I can only find someone who can do the same for me in 'Histoire du Soldat'
GO TO NEXT POST
Histoire du Soldat (suite)
I'm slowly warming up to 'Soldat', mostly because I think I can feel the Swiss chilly air in its composition, I can smell the desperation of a small orchestra, I sense the diabolical in its scratchiness.
BUT, I'm having trouble finding a recording for "me". All the ones I currently have (Jarvi, Boulez/DG, Maazel) are incidental, they weren't "choices", and, they all seem quite polite.
Boulez highlights the 'Pastoral' with a heavenly clarinet, but his trumpet seems polite. Jarvi's trumpet is more to my liking, slurppy and syrupy. Maazel kind of fits the other two. All are "too professional" for me- I WANT SCRATCHY VIOLIN, I want transcendent trumpet.
I've made a list here of who the contenders might be. What do you think?:
Chailly/Decca
Schwarz/Delos
Howarth/EMI
Craft/St.Luke... I wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be, leather mallets not withstanding ::)
Craft/Philharmonia
Mihaly/Hungaroton... impressed by the rustic quality, which is what I wanted
Pesek/Supraphon... gloriously colorful recording, very nice
Lazarov/Bolshoi... this one gets high marks
random Koch
Norrington/SONY
Jarvi/Chandos
Boulez/DG
Boulez/Erato
Maazel/RCA
Now, to be clear, I'm in no mood for narration, and I already have a Clarinet Trio version I'm happy enough with (Ashkenazy). I'm only interested in the suite with full instrumentation.
As you can see, I am feeling that the Eastern European groups seem to have more fun with it. I'm surprised Kremer hasn't recorded it. BUT, with Boulez and Maazel, I'm still hearing "instruments" instead of "characters".
I MUST have COMPLETE IMMERSION- the players MUST be playing characters... the Boulez is heinously "professional", only speaking to me in the 'Pastoral'- his players just sound too refined. The Jarvi and Maazel players are also equally too... "good"... I sense no deviltry, no soul snatching, no post-Exorcist aura of inevitable sulfuric doom.
IT MAY BE STRAVINSKY'S FAULT? That 'Devil Music' really ISN'T, is it? That triumphal dance doesn't really sound like the devil at all, unless the devil is just being cheeky here.
Anyhow, I hope sooomeone can bring some light here, I'm ready to skin this one.
(There's not as many recordings of the suite as I thought; I think my list is fairly representative)
Quote from: snyprrr on May 06, 2017, 08:34:54 AM
Histoire du Soldat (suite)
I'm slowly warming up to 'Soldat', mostly because I think I can feel the Swiss chilly air in its composition, I can smell the desperation of a small orchestra, I sense the diabolical in its scratchiness.
BUT, I'm having trouble finding a recording for "me". All the ones I currently have (Jarvi, Boulez/DG, Maazel) are incidental, they weren't "choices", and, they all seem quite polite.
Boulez highlights the 'Pastoral' with a heavenly clarinet, but his trumpet seems polite. Jarvi's trumpet is more to my liking, slurppy and syrupy. Maazel kind of fits the other two. All are "too professional" for me- I WANT SCRATCHY VIOLIN, I want transcendent trumpet.
I've made a list here of who the contenders might be. What do you think?:
Chailly/Decca
Schwarz/Delos
Howarth/EMI
Craft/St.Luke... I wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be, leather mallets not withstanding ::)
Craft/Philharmonia
Mihaly/Hungaroton... impressed by the rustic quality, which is what I wanted
Pesek/Supraphon... gloriously colorful recording, very nice
Lazarov/Bolshoi... this one gets high marks
random Koch
Norrington/SONY
Jarvi/Chandos
Boulez/DG
Boulez/Erato
Maazel/RCA
Now, to be clear, I'm in no mood for narration, and I already have a Clarinet Trio version I'm happy enough with (Ashkenazy). I'm only interested in the suite with full instrumentation.
As you can see, I am feeling that the Eastern European groups seem to have more fun with it. I'm surprised Kremer hasn't recorded it. BUT, with Boulez and Maazel, I'm still hearing "instruments" instead of "characters".
I MUST have COMPLETE IMMERSION- the players MUST be playing characters... the Boulez is heinously "professional", only speaking to me in the 'Pastoral'- his players just sound too refined. The Jarvi and Maazel players are also equally too... "good"... I sense no deviltry, no soul snatching, no post-Exorcist aura of inevitable sulfuric doom.
IT MAY BE STRAVINSKY'S FAULT? That 'Devil Music' really ISN'T, is it? That triumphal dance doesn't really sound like the devil at all, unless the devil is just being cheeky here.
Anyhow, I hope sooomeone can bring some light here, I'm ready to skin this one.
(There's not as many recordings of the suite as I thought; I think my list is fairly representative)
Of course, it's been quite difficult to stay away from this Thread, but, we made it a month! ;D
I've been sitting here for a month now, with all the IS CDs artistically arranged around the computer... purchasing has well nigh been plugged- meeeaning- I'm down to different Firebirds and Petrouchkas (currently awaiting Dohnanyi/Vienna, probably the nail s in the coffin there...)...
I've now got more 'Soldats' than I ever could possibly want- though- I have now warmed up to the whole 'Soldat' thing, actually enjoying Norrington/SONY!!! (I know, wtf??)- and even, in a Smithsonian way, Craft's absolutely museum like version on MusicMasters (making a big deal of the felt mallets, hoo boy!).
Currently, I've been obsessing on individual movements, like, the 1st from 'Movements', or 'Chez Petrouchka', or parts of 'Le Baiser...', or the xylophone in the 'Firebird'... trying to figure out the difference between 1911/1947 Petrouchka...
I had no idea IS would become the fulcrum he has, but, I continue to hear the seeds of Xenakis, and other such, in the strangest of places... definitely hearing the seeds of Minimalism...
Neil, maybe as I'm beginning my "listen to it from the beginning" of starting with 'Le Sacre' and working through each phase, I will finally reach 1959 again... I had no idea it would be so hard to get back to Xenakis from the pruned world of IS (Xenakis is what IS would sound like if IS allowed his weeds to grow, instead of pruning pruning pruning)...
'The Rite of Spring'
I'm slowly listening to the intro with the versions I have (Dorati/Chicago, Davis/Concertgebouw, Marriner, Salonen/SONY, Inbal, and Barenboim/Teldec'live'). Dorati's recording is deliciously full of drooling and burbling in the intro, but so is Marriner (though more distantly recorded)...
I have made it through the entirety of IgorMania2017 WITHOUT releasing the kraken, but, now, it has to be done... Xenakis will have to be the love child of Stravinsky and Varese, and wait just a little longer (I know, I know ;))...
'Le Sacre' is just FULL of incredible moments, and since I saved it for last, I can here the echoes (such as the savage ending rhythms of the Symphony in 3 Movements, the "oriental" melodies, the abundant grace note inflections) in the later phases.
Yea, sorry, looks like we're on a 'Sacre' roll for a short while ::) :-*
Quote from: snyprrr on July 03, 2017, 09:00:00 AM
I've now got more 'Soldats' than I ever could possibly want- though- I have now warmed up to the whole 'Soldat' thing
Good.
QuoteI had no idea IS would become the fulcrum he has, but, I continue to hear the seeds of Xenakis, and other such, in the strangest of places... definitely hearing the seeds of Minimalism...
Aye.
Quote'The Rite of Spring'
I'm slowly listening to the intro with the versions I have (Dorati/Chicago, Davis/Concertgebouw, Marriner, Salonen/SONY, Inbal, and Barenboim/Teldec'live'). Dorati's recording is deliciously full of drooling and burbling in the intro, but so is Marriner (though more distantly recorded)...
I have made it through the entirety of IgorMania2017 WITHOUT releasing the kraken, but, now, it has to be done... Xenakis will have to be the love child of Stravinsky and Varese, and wait just a little longer (I know, I know ;))...
'Le Sacre' is just FULL of incredible moments, and since I saved it for last, I can here the echoes (such as the savage ending rhythms of the Symphony in 3 Movements, the "oriental" melodies, the abundant grace note inflections) in the later phases.
Yea, sorry, looks like we're on a 'Sacre' roll for a short while ::) :-*
Good.
Doubtful. He was a man of businesslike work habits.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 10, 2017, 02:03:04 AM
Doubtful. He was a man of businesslike work habits.
...but he also liked his scotch! ;D
Quote from: ritter on July 10, 2017, 02:24:06 AM
...but he also liked his scotch! ;D
Sure! But he may not have mixed them.
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 04, 2017, 01:20:14 PM
Snyprrr, you know Bartok exists right? :laugh:
I got the 'Two Portraits' Op.5 with the Dohnanyi 'Firebird' (which is a great proto-digital recording, and performance). These pieces were new to me, so, of course Alien Dearest, I couldn't wait to check them out...
I gathered a long cantinela followed by a "grotesquerie" (I always love to hear "grotesques"). Well,... mm,.. eh,... yea, the first piece has a very tangled, woodsy feel, full moon, two violins above... it DOES go on for a little bit. The second piece sounded like... Schoenberg?
So, mm, new Bartok - uber complexity circa 1914,... it's gonna be "chewy"...
My core wasn't shaken, but I did like the sound of the orchestramand such...
WELL- my fav piece of the 'Firebird' has got to be the couple of selections BEFORE the 'Infernal Dance'. Why no one turns to these, and the 'Dance' instead, amazes me, especially here. Those passages DO prefigure IX's multiple things happening at once... I've become obsessed with the xylophone in the 'Firebird' (too loud?, too soft? must I find another??)...
Davis/RCO
Dohnanyi/VPO
Boulez/NY 1975
Dutoit... good, but compared to those three, wow,...
sORRY nEIL, i'M JUST HAVING AN ORGY OF (whoops!) Firebird-Petrushka-Sacre... it's gotta be the last throes of IgorMania...
Boulez DG Firebird sounds more like the 'ICEbird'... eh? No matter HOW "volcanic", it still comes off as metallic sharp razor blades... I mean, I like it, but it's not the FIREbird...
To me, absorption in and/or obsession with Igor Fyodorovich is nearly as natural as breathing.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 14, 2017, 04:06:34 AM
Seriously people, who needs Le Sacre when you have the thunderous, earth-shaking "Infernal Dance" from the Firebird? ;)
I like Sacre as much as the next guy but The Firebird is absolutely divine.
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 14, 2017, 04:06:34 AM
Seriously people, who needs Le Sacre when you have the thunderous, earth-shaking "Infernal Dance" from the Firebird? ;)
You need Le Sacre because it lasts longer.
;^)
I've been stuck comparing the 'Procession of the Sage-Adoration of the Earth-Dance of the Earth' ending to Part1 of 'Le Sacre'. Of course, this music is like a test example for any orchestra. And, of course, it IS earth shattering stuff!
The ending of the 'Procession' sounds to me like a mandala in sound. I can "see" the vortex, surrounded by the maelstrom.
It's all just too much...
(this is the first day the computer has allowed me to access the interwebs in like two weeks!)
By the way- Dohnanyi's Vienna Stravinsky is some of the best I've heard, 'Firebird' and 'Petrushka'. He illuminates a lot of stuff that you don't readily hear in every recording. Great stuff! ;)
I finally got around to probably the very last stop on our IgorMania2017 Tour, the second part of 'Le Sacre'. I had forgotten everything after the slow section, but, as I was becoming slightly lulled by the mellow music (also the same as the intro to 'Le Rossignol'?), the action comes out of nowhere, and I imagine that this is the spot where the audience rebelled, or the riot started. The jolt is quite sudden, I can imagine the audience not being... uh... triggered, lol.
But, 'Part 2' comes off more like a high speed food processor, chop chop chop, very much more bludgeoning and repetitive and primitive than even 'Part 1'. Also, it seems the themes are less memorable to me, as if he just wants to get the thing over with already.
However, I was listening to Salonen/SONY, which is the most in-your-face monster fest I've heard, absolutely unhinged from first to last, my raving favorite.
I'm taking Dorati and Davis on the road today...
Resistance is futile 0:)
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 25, 2017, 01:42:27 AM
I keep falling myself into IgorMania@2017 binges ;)
I've been trying to break free. So far, Malipiero, Villa-Lobos, and Milhaud have been the best candidates, but, of course, there abounds Stravinskyisms. I still haven't been able to jump to IX, but I'm switching strategies with him (I'm going to fins all his "Greek" stuff to listen to first).
Yes, Stravinsky has ruined A LOT of Composers for me now, especially since I did such a big purchasing before heading into this. Well, at least I have a lot to listen to when I get around to it! ;)
I'm hearing the rocking motion of the intro to 'Le Rossignol' in so much- it's like Roger Sessions's go-to.
'Le Sacre' practically contains the whole of IX and others... I would love to hear a re-composition with all the signposts up front, starting with the 'Augurs' at double speed!! BOOM BOOM indeed!!
Yea, so I'm wallowing in Firebird-Petrushka-Rite, just hearing things in the transitions. There really is not much hope of breaking free too easily. And I'm not even buying anymore, which is incredible and amazing all by itself!! It's just so much stuff to hear, it alwaus sounds fresh...
BUT, Stravinsky's Works List isn't the biggest in history, and I am starting to crave moreMoreMORE!! But,... there... is... no... more...
DIE SOLDATEN, here I come? BAZ was my shizzle before Igor, maybe I can start dating again?....
Quote from: snyprrr on July 25, 2017, 06:23:21 AM
Yes, Stravinsky has ruined A LOT of Composers for me now [...]
[...] And I'm not even buying anymore, which is incredible and amazing all by itself!! It's just so much stuff to hear, it always sounds fresh...
To the first point: that is a definite hurdle. But you can get over it! Your ears will be stronger!
To the second: Yes! The
Stravinsky catalogue never stales. And
I WANT HIS SECRET!Quote from: snyprrr on July 25, 2017, 06:23:21 AMBUT, Stravinsky's Works List isn't the biggest in history [....]
Not the biggest, no, not by quite a wide margin; yet, how very substantial.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 25, 2017, 06:29:19 AM
To the first point: that is a definite hurdle. But you can get over it! Your ears will be stronger!
To the second: Yes! The Stravinsky catalogue never stales. And I WANT HIS SECRET!
Not the biggest, no, not by quite a wide margin; yet, how very substantial.
Well, obviously, one of his secrets is the "reinventing" thing. When was the last time you Composed outside your, presumably, hard won style? Or, what "hook" is YOURS ALONE (like Martinu's) and can be inserted into ANY "style"? Igor had that off'beat rhythm thing that followed him everywhere.
And when was the last time you took a favoured piece of music and orchestrated it?
And when did you scrap it all for a completely new style?
Well, to be fair, where would IS be without Diaghelev? Karl, maybe you need a sugar daddy?? :laugh: I mean, after three stupendous ballets, IS could have, and did, do... anything... he went from that "Russian" style straight into ragtime.
Have you hidden Britney Spears quotes in your music? 'Smoke on the Vaten'? 'Variations on Margaritaville'?
We don't live in an era of Complexity anymore. We need it simplified for easy digestion by Generation Snowflake.
What happens when THIS generation becomes the "blue hairs"? Concerto for Kardashian?
I'd recommend doing a 'Peanuts' Opera or something, if you want recognition. You need something that's going to get the info-babes on MSNBC moist. And Ferneyhough ain't it. :(
Become the Bret Easton Ellis of Composers! :laugh:
Quote from: snyprrr on July 25, 2017, 06:58:10 AM
And when was the last time you took a favoured piece of music and orchestrated it?
Well, I should finish my brass quintet arrangement of the
Wachet auf! Chorale Prelude. (In fact, I plan to do so in August.)
Because this does
not really qualify, I do not think:
http://www.youtube.com/v/B6xeqrcavUQ
Quote from: snyprrr on July 25, 2017, 06:58:10 AM
Well, to be fair, where would IS be without Diaghelev? Karl, maybe you need a sugar daddy??
I suppose.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 25, 2017, 06:58:10 AM
Have you hidden Britney Spears quotes in your music?
No, but there's a
Gershwin allusion in
Out in the Sun, and an especially sneaky use of
Thelonious Monk's Evidence in my
Organ Sonata.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 25, 2017, 08:50:55 AM
Well, I should finish my brass quintet arrangement of the Wachet auf! Chorale Prelude. (In fact, I plan to do so in August.)
Because this does not really qualify, I do not think:
http://www.youtube.com/v/B6xeqrcavUQ
But here's what I mean: in your orchestration, have you really settled on the STANDARD Brass Quintet?? Or, have you played with the instruments? Made a new combination? I mean, you're not just transcribing notes into their CORRECT place? How would Igor do it? WWID? Five tubas???? Why not? A String Quartet with three winds??? Sure!!!
That vid is funny tho :laugh:... but I do like Eno's treatment the best...
I think you may be too much of a purist to really cut the cord... hmmm?
But... we're MAGA, so there's really no time for shit like music anymore,... sigh, LOL!! :'( :laugh:
Why you don't write 'Sonata for El Tupe' is beyond me. Your teacher Opera'd 'Brokeback', why not do Mein Drumpf or something? You just can't be a Purist anymore, that's so passe, it's been done, de rigeur, sneeze, ...
Otherwise it's just Transiberian classico-metal, Yngwie...
Watching Rollin's B+W '60s 'La Reine du Vampires' with an Avant soundtrack of free jazz... 'Death Laid An Egg' with music by Bruno Maderna, total noisefest...
Wait... is this the Stravinsky Thread,... lol, sorry, whoops...
It Is What It Is
I don't know how I feel about IS's Gesualdo, commenting on the previous Post. Nothing particular there...
There are two distinct works, you know.
There's the Monumentum pro Gesualdo di Venosa, three madrigals scored for instruments, almost literal to the source, very slight compositional modifications; so the Stravinsky touch is most subtle.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Fh37u3djt6w
http://www.youtube.com/v/2xw12Cwx6bY
http://www.youtube.com/v/p4LsuPQoFA8
And there are the Tres sacræ cantiones, three motets which were missing the lowest part. As I understand it, the upper parts are authentic Gesualdo, and Stravinsky composed a new line to substitute for the lost part..
http://www.youtube.com/v/EeG01wfTkKU
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 25, 2017, 09:51:40 AM
And there are the Tres sacræ cantiones, three motets which were missing the lowest part. As I understand it, the upper parts are authentic Gesualdo, and Stravinsky composed a new line to substitute for the lost part..
http://www.youtube.com/v/EeG01wfTkKU
This disc is so magnificent, I don't care what context it's mentioned in, I have to add my support for it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 25, 2017, 09:51:40 AM
There are two distinct works, you know.
There's the Monumentum pro Gesualdo di Venosa, three madrigals scored for instruments, almost literal to the source, very slight compositional modifications; so the Stravinsky touch is most subtle.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Fh37u3djt6w
http://www.youtube.com/v/2xw12Cwx6bY
http://www.youtube.com/v/p4LsuPQoFA8
And there are the Tres sacræ cantiones, three motets which were missing the lowest part. As I understand it, the upper parts are authentic Gesualdo, and Stravinsky composed a new line to substitute for the lost part..
http://www.youtube.com/v/EeG01wfTkKU
I could've sworn there was some Bach thing that IS added the "missing line" to. I seem to believe I have a disc sooomewhere with some HIP SQs that has these Bach fugues that IS added the "lost" line. But I can't find it; the one I thought was Mozart doing Bach fugues for SQ.
Dost thou knowest whateth I speaketh of?
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 25, 2017, 06:09:32 PM
This disc is so magnificent, I don't care what context it's mentioned in, I have to add my support for it.
Oy, you're going to make me, aren't you?
I've managed my Stravinsky Box by finding issues at pennies for the dollar. Those two Herreweghe discs would break me like Ahnold- I AM having a hard time with 'Threni' simply because of all the exposed singing. I listened to the Herreweghe on YouTube and just couldn't handle a 1/2 hour of tenors... even if there is less "bleating"... I mean, it IS a tough nut to crack... and I don't think following the Jeremiah is going to help...
I wonder if I put on the LP version now... well, it's a bit early for me to be whipping my back... maybe I'll try today...
But I do seem to be able to handle 'Canticum Sacrum' just fine, between the Hyperion and Craft, which are two very very different takes. Besides IS, we also have Preston and Jarvi...
Quote from: snyprrr on July 26, 2017, 06:16:01 AM
I could've sworn there was some Bach thing that IS added the "missing line" to. I seem to believe I have a disc sooomewhere with some HIP SQs that has these Bach fugues that IS added the "lost" line. But I can't find it; the one I thought was Mozart doing Bach fugues for SQ.
Dost thou knowest whateth I speaketh of?
Yes, the
Canonic Variations on Von Himmel hoch, where Stravinsky took the Bach organ work, orchestrated it, and added in the implied chorale theme, sung by choir.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 26, 2017, 06:16:01 AMOy, you're going to make me, aren't you?
I've managed my Stravinsky Box by finding issues at pennies for the dollar. Those two Herreweghe discs would break me like Ahnold- I AM having a hard time with 'Threni' simply because of all the exposed singing. I listened to the Herreweghe on YouTube and just couldn't handle a 1/2 hour of tenors... even if there is less "bleating"... I mean, it IS a tough nut to crack... and I don't think following the Jeremiah is going to help...
I wonder if I put on the LP version now... well, it's a bit early for me to be whipping my back... maybe I'll try today...
But I do seem to be able to handle 'Canticum Sacrum' just fine, between the Hyperion and Craft, which are two very very different takes. Besides IS, we also have Preston and Jarvi...
Strangely, I don't like Canticum Sacrum nearly as much, perhaps because the Columbia recording of it sounds so awful and needlessly harsh.
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 26, 2017, 09:23:00 AM
Yes, the Canonic Variations on Von Himmel hoch, where Stravinsky took the Bach organ work, orchestrated it, and added in the implied chorale theme, sung by choir.
Strangely, I don't like Canticum Sacrum nearly as much, perhaps because the Columbia recording of it sounds so awful and needlessly harsh.
1) Oh, OK. I could've sworn it was a String Quartet fugue... must be confused with Mozart.
2) You've gotta try Craft in 'Canticum'. He fixes all the Columbia problems; also much quicker and incisive. The Hyperion, too, is even better.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 27, 2017, 07:43:16 AM
1) Oh, OK. I could've sworn it was a String Quartet fugue... must be confused with Mozart.
I've located this. I don't recall having read about this piece before:
Igor Stravinsky's final work, arrangements of Four Preludes and Fugues from Das Wohltemperirte Clavier, appears in print for the first time from Boosey & Hawkes, edited by Christopher [Hogwood].
Bach on the piano was Stravinsky's "daily bread"; Lillian Libman claimed he "began every day of his life by playing two or three fugues from The Well-Tempered Clavier", and after the composer's death in 1971 Robert Craft reported finding the E-flat minor Prelude from Book 1 open on the studio piano, the last piece Stravinsky had played three days earlier. His copies of the Czerny/Peters edition are now in the Paul Sacher Stiftung, Basel, along with the autograph manuscript of his arrangements, scored for three clarinets, two bassoons and strings.
In an interview with Craft for the New York Review of Books, he said, "As for my 'aim', if I must pretend to have one, I simply wished to make the music available in an instrumental form other than the keyboard". Although he admitted to including "dynamix" lifted from the Czerny edition, he otherwise added very little phrasing and articulation, and since every bar exists fully scored in Stravinsky's hand, his intentions are rarely unclear. Any dilemmas that required editorial solution are explained in the Introduction and referenced in the Critical Commentary, and several facsimiles illustrate some of the more complex difficulties that had to be resolved.From the late
Christopher Hogwood's website: http://www.hogwood.org/archive/composers/others/bach-stravinsky-four-preludes-fugues.html
And this (http://www.boosey.com/cr/music/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Four-Preludes-and-Fugues-from-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier/47466) is the information on the score from the publishers Boosey & Hawkes.
Cool.
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 26, 2017, 09:23:00 AM
Strangely, I don't like Canticum Sacrum nearly as much, perhaps because the Columbia recording of it sounds so awful and needlessly harsh.
I guess I was lucky: I heard it first in the
Jas O'Donnell/
City of London Sinfonia recording. And so, I have liked it from the start.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2017, 09:29:12 AM
I guess I was lucky: I heard it first in the Jas O'Donnell/City of London Sinfonia recording. And so, I have liked it from the start.
is that the live cd thingy, ? because craft's musicmaster cd is with st. luke. ribs... typing one finger.....
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2017, 01:14:02 AM
Cool.
Just ordered the Rex Lawson Pianola disc on MusicMasters. I HAVE arrived! Make way the rose petals...
Quote from: snyprrr on July 28, 2017, 09:43:35 AM
is that the live cd thingy, ? because craft's musicmaster cd is with st. luke. ribs... typing one finger.....
I don't think it's live, no.
And, come to think of it, I have that
Craft disc, too . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2017, 10:22:10 AM
I don't think it's live, no.
And, come to think of it, I have that Craft disc, too . . . .
OK, you mean the HYPERION. That and the Craft are both very different and very illuminating. There's also Simon Preston and Jarvi, for the brave
Quote from: snyprrr on July 28, 2017, 10:15:52 AM
Just ordered the Rex Lawson Pianola disc on MusicMasters. I HAVE arrived! Make way the rose petals...
4 Etudes
I juuust can't get excited about these at all, even though one can hear all of Feldman in No.2. All of Feldman. But, I've tried to avoid them as much as possible- I just went through Boulez/Erato, Boulez/DG, Inbal/Teldec, and Dutoit. Boulez's early Erato recording is much more natural than the sleek DG ('Madrid' sounding just a little too broad in the DG, also). Dutoit sounds as fine as any.
I just can't get excited here. Same goes for most of the 2 Suites and the 8 Instrumental Miniatures. As I think about it, I may not be all that excited about IS's orchestrations in general; it seems that he retooled a lot of my least favoured works: I was just listening to Boulez's Concertino, and I just can't get over how ugly I find the piece. Of course, its strangeness is also somewhat its appeal, but, I find that piece "turdish"- I see it shaped like a big log turd with all these,... pardon me... veins... feral...
NEVERMIND :laugh:
Yea, if I start obsessing about the 'Canzonetta' please direct me elsewhere! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on August 01, 2017, 08:08:38 AM
4 Etudes
2 Suites
8 Instrumental Miniatures
These are simply lesser works. Not getting excited over them, is not problematic 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 01, 2017, 08:32:00 AM
These are simply lesser works. Not getting excited over them, is not problematic 8)
Yea, lol,... you think it's time for me to loosen my DeathGrip on the IgorMania? ::)...lol, it's just been really hard breaking out and in to something else... I keep trying to "find a place" for the viola 'Elegie', lol,... duuuude, it's just a little viola elegy,... same for all his "napkin compositions",... why am I TRYING to make myself care, ... I think I'm just allowing OCD to dictate the terms here, haha,... right now I'm down to 'Jeu de Cartes', which, also, isn't really all that, in terms of what I'm looking for on a daily basis...
I'll sit there and push repeat for a hour listening to the 'Variations',... lol,... I'M IN THE WEEDS MAN!!!!!!
The Elegy is a minor work, but a beauty. Definitely a couple of notches above the Suites!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 02, 2017, 08:12:00 AM
The Elegy is a minor work, but a beauty. Definitely a couple of notches above the Suites!
SBanner harmony... yea, the 'Elegie' is great stuff... I think I meant that it's there, all alone, in the 40s, swamped by everything else (except the 2Piano Sonata),... it's easily overlooked...
How bout the clarinet pieces, though, Karl? Maybe I've asked before, but, technically, I'm like, meh... I'm enormously ambivalent concerning all that piano music (other than the big pieces)... but, I mean, there's no toooooo much IS that is small and flimsy, but, like anyone, there are scribbled napkins...
nevermind, I'm just digging a hole here, lol.........
I certainly like the 2trumpet fanfare a lot!
I find the three clarinet pieces great fun.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 02, 2017, 02:15:54 PM
I find the three clarinet pieces great fun.
Give me some context, or show me a performance that you can convince me with. I'm at a loss with most of the humor, or whatever it is that makes it "fun". I have Damiens (is it the same recording on Accord AND DG?), Antony Pays,- well, those two (also Dmitri Ashkenazy, nope; and whomever on MDG, can't remember, but it also has the Picasso piece)... I thought one of the first two hit it real swell, probably Pays?....
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 02, 2017, 04:31:18 PM
AND IGOR SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT, and there was light
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 02, 2017, 04:26:54 PM
Ludwig Carlos Van Stravinsky
You're druuunk!! :P
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 07, 2017, 01:01:09 AM
Threni is so fucking good, so fucking good! :-*
Snyprrr, will you budge, there is food in it for you? ;)
I've been trying, but I do have this natural aversion to the sound of classically trained singers... even the Herreweghe (on YT) wore me down after a while. ALL I hear is the sound of a man singing... I just can't hear anything else...
OK, I'll take the IS/CBS with me today-
I know I've already asked "how much better could the Herreweghe be in music of such austerity?", but, I think it was Mahlerian who corrected me- there's less bleating in the Herreweghe. Well, I still hear the sound of a man singing, and it's not Paul Rodgers (Bad Company, lol).
BUT, I TRY AND TRY AND TRY AGAIN. WILL REPORT.
Why not give me some needle-drops into your fav moments?
Quote from: snyprrr on August 07, 2017, 06:37:38 AM
I've been trying, but I do have this natural aversion to the sound of classically trained singers... even the Herreweghe (on YT) wore me down after a while. ALL I hear is the sound of a man singing... I just can't hear anything else...
Start spreadin' the news ....
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 07, 2017, 09:02:27 AM
Start spreadin' the news ....
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
still waiting on clarinet confirmation. Listened to Pays yesterday. So, the piece starts with a riff on the 'Volga Boatman'? Since it's a much more complex piece than 'Threni'... :P
Quote from: snyprrr on August 03, 2017, 08:45:17 PM
Give me some context, or show me a performance that you can convince me with.
I played them for my Junior Recital, and they are fun to play. I have probably played them more than once since.
I am 100% all about live performances, there's a magic to seeing a piece in concert that beats any recording even with the best pair of headphones available. That's what I experienced last night with The Firebird (1919 suite) performed by the Nashville Symphony. It's always been my least favorite of Stravinsky's major works, but that changed last night. Seeing, and hearing, the colorful orchestration at work, with it's shared division among the winds, and the many percussion instruments just added to the experience.
The mysteriousness of the strings from the Berceuse that filled the hall like a soft blowing wind, the muscular bass-drum hits, the sharp and edgy muted brass lines, and of course the majestic closing bars. This all added to a new found respect for the work, and truthfully I'm excited to gather my recordings of The Firebird and revisit them. This includes the full versions by MTT and Dutoit/Montreal, and the suites by Bernstein/Israel and Abbado/LSO. I have seen Petrushka, Rite of Spring, and now The Firebird all performed live, and what great show pieces these are for orchestras.
Any Firebird fans here? If so which version(s) do you prefer? Thanks!
The Abbado/LSO Suite is dynamite. For the complete ballet, hard for me to choose from among the Craft/Philharmonia, Rattle/CBSO and Boulez/CSO.
And my baptism with the piece was rehearsing/performing it in the Wooster Symphony, so I can vouch for the higher character of experience which is hearing it live.
I was always rather partial to this Firebird from Gergiev:
(https://img.discogs.com/EHa_1fInLntpBnIQJnokhveAOvs=/fit-in/600x601/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-10340017-1495679701-4097.jpeg.jpg)
As for the Firebird Suite, I normally grab Stokowski´s Decca with the LSO and Maazel/BerlRSO.
Both are of course rather old recordings, but in stereo.
In the suite, I´ve got those, plus Stokowski/BPO, Stravinsky/ColSO, Irving/NYBalletO, Dorati/Minneapolis, Monteux/BostonSO, Goehr/NethRSO, and Ormandy/Philadelphia.
Great! Thanks for the recs, friends!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2017, 08:26:15 AM
Boulez/CSO.
This one works for me. The dynamic range on that recording is huge. 8)
I keep forgetting to adjust . . . for whatever reason, if I cut and paste while I am editing a post, the app does funky things with the font . . . .
The recording I got to know The Firebird with, and which remains my favourite, is Boulez's first with the NYPO:
(https://img.discogs.com/VAtkmD3ZjBe5la4qTNJZpWe6GlA=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3327466-1416543208-9711.jpeg.jpg)
Perhaps less polished than his CSO remake on DG, but there's something "earthy" to this earler version (within the limits of Boulez's analytical approach, of course) that makes it very special (to me at least).
What should be avoided is Boulez's 60s recording of the suite, which is the 1911 version (and thus does not include the berceuse and the fnale, leaving an unpelasant feeling of coitus interruptus >:( ):
(https://cloud10.todocoleccion.online/discos-vinilo/tc/2017/03/02/17/78148309.jpg)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2017, 08:52:15 AM
Great! Thanks for the recs, friends!
Boulez New York
Davis Concertgebouw
Dohnanyi Vienna
You know I'm right ;)
The Stravinsky plague is real, all residents are reported to be robbing dairies and law-firms worldwide, here's Tom with the weather.
No cover yet, but a recording of Stravinsky's recently rediscovered Chant funèbre, op 5. under Riccardo Chailly conducting the Lucerne Festival Orchestra will be released in January on Decca. The CD will also include Le Sacre and Feu d'Artifice.
For some reason, the "new" work is referred to in some links as "Marche Funèbre" rather than Chant Funèbre...
Quote from: ritter on November 23, 2017, 12:52:26 AM
No cover yet, but a recording of Stravinsky's recently rediscovered Chant funèbre, op 5. under Riccardo Chailly conducting the Lucerne Festival Orchestra will be released in January on Decca. The CD will also include Le Sacre and Feu d'Artifice.
For some reason, the "new" work is referred to in some links as "Marche Funèbre" rather than Chant Funèbre...
Oh great, more recordings of
Le sacre and
The Firebird. ::) I really wish the couplings were more interesting. :-\
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 23, 2017, 06:38:44 AM
Oh great, more recordings of Le sacre and The Firebird. ::) I really wish the couplings were more interesting. :-\
Firework, not
Firebird ;) But I can't say I disagree..
Quote from: North Star on November 23, 2017, 10:22:26 AM
Firework, not Firebird ;) But I can't say I disagree..
Ah, if you couldn't tell my French really sucks. ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 23, 2017, 06:38:44 AM
Oh great, more recordings of Le sacre and The Firebird. ::) I really wish the couplings were more interesting. :-\
I mean... seriously :'( :(... I guess we'll next get another round of Boxes to included the new work? lol
Though, there aren't too many works that I think neeed a new look... 'Movements', Concerto in D, Septet, ...but, yea, I really can't come up with anything that's reeeally needed here, can you? 'Persephone'?
I'm currently in Paris with LesSix & Co., )trying to wrap up the French Experience (with Jolivet, Dutilleux, and Boulez at the tail end... Ohana, Sauget. Stravinsky does seem to stand over the whole bunch... (and of course HVL, Malipiero, and the rest of em)...
I start with the fact that Poulenc did not write a String Quartet, and work backwards from there...
Somehow I always keep finding myself back at the later works.
I kinda fell into a Le Sacre thing in the last two weeks but alas, I'm back on the later works again :laugh:
Snyprrr, did you ever get into The Flood?
If not, you should be listening to the "Building The Ark" movement by itself (as it is an instrumental section), it got a but of that Le Sacre intensity (Sacrificial Dance), combined with wind-quintet-Schoenberg and perhaps even Varese :o
Really awesome movement on it's own :-*
I am very partial to the flood right now :D
Quote from: Le Moderniste on November 24, 2017, 04:10:29 PM
Somehow I always keep finding myself back at the later works.
I kinda fell into a Le Sacre thing in the last two weeks but alas, I'm back on the later works again :laugh:
I always enjoy visiting the later works, but I do not really linger there. Big tent, here 0:)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 26, 2017, 05:28:17 AM
I always enjoy visiting the later works, but I do not really linger there. Big tent, here 0:)
Same here. There are masterpieces from all across Stravinsky's stylistic periods that I enjoy immensely.
Quote from: Le Moderniste on November 25, 2017, 12:36:28 AM
Snyprrr, did you ever get into The Flood?
If not, you should be listening to the "Building The Ark" movement by itself (as it is an instrumental section), it got a but of that Le Sacre intensity (Sacrificial Dance), combined with wind-quintet-Schoenberg and perhaps even Varese :o
Really awesome movement on it's own :-*
I am very partial to the flood right now :D
Yea, I AM having problems with IS's "Charlton Heston Phase". I'll check out that movement, which I'm sure I didn't make it to (Knussen/DG), lol. This piece, 'Narrative...' and '...Isaac' just give me the giggles...
If I had to guess where I'm at on the ol' Stravinsky-O-Meter, I'll have to go with... mm...mm...
........oh, it's really hard.... either 'Soldat', Septet, or 'Movements'... I dunno, I need that "rare air" right now as the seasons are changing... I'm gonna need crisp crisp crisp.... maybe the Music for Violin & Piano?, that's always lean and sprightly...(Mustonen/van Kuelen)...
like I said, I'm more in "Paris" right now, so, it's more of the SPIRIT of IS that I'm absorbing from the rest (trying to stay away from Tansman)... enjoying Francaix, Bozza, Rivier, Milhaud,... I think I'm getting more Igorout of Milhaud at the moment...
ALL WORKING UP TO THE XENAKIS DEBUT!!!
I find that IX went further... jumped ship... from the tail end of the 20th Century French Revolution: Jolivet, Dutilleux, Boulez, Ballif, Sauget, Ohana, Landowski... and I'm finding that the "nice" French Composers were still writing nice music well into the 60s and 70s (Francaix, Tailleferre,...)...
I'm rambling, lol
I just want you to be where I'm at... meet me at Le Cafe Chat somewhere between 1949 and 1961....
warp drive engaged!!! :P
REMEMBER, I STILL HAVE IGOR'S BUSINESS CARD FROM 1959... I CAN GO ANYWHERE, I CAN FLYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!WEEEEE
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 26, 2017, 06:04:54 AM
Same here. There are masterpieces from all across Stravinsky's stylistic periods that I enjoy immensely.
As learned in Stravinsky 101:
QuoteStravinsky wrote great pieces from 1889 to 1967, everything else is garbage
:D ;)
Starting in 1989, eh? 8)
Not 28 years ago, he wasn't!
1889 :'( :laugh:
Lol, I probably made that mistake cause Mauricio Kagel has a (awesome) piece of the title "1989", thanks brain! :laugh:
It was an easy typo, the intention wasn't to keelhaul you 0:)
Well I landed back at The Rite again :laugh:
I guess I have an excuse though, 'cause I'm seeing in live in a few days 8)
Quote from: Le Moderniste on November 28, 2017, 04:32:34 PMI guess I have an excuse though, 'cause I'm seeing in live in a few days 8)
Cool. What conductor/orchestra?
Quote from: Le Moderniste on November 28, 2017, 04:32:34 PM
Well I landed back at The Rite again :laugh:
It's always
coming home.
Still my "favorite" Stravinsky works tend to be later ones but no matter how hard I try, I keep bumping into Le Sacre in real life, so I guess I gotta embrace one of my first loves ???
I think Le Sacre in many ways shares similarities with Stockhausen's Gruppen in it's seemingly endless, inexhaustible things you can learn and interpret from it. I guess it has it's popular position for a reason (same with Gruppen, even though it's less performed for practical reasons).
Resistance is futile!
Doesn't beat The Flood (imo) but Les Noces is reaaaally awesome :-*
Quote from: Le Moderniste on December 01, 2017, 12:07:53 AM
Doesn't beat The Flood (imo) but Les Noces is reaaaally awesome :-*
Always glad to see a minority opinion ;)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 01, 2017, 06:14:59 AM
Always glad to see a minority opinion ;)
Hah! ;D
I can't say I know
The Flood too well. I might have heard once many years ago, but given how awesome
Les Noces is and how I've really warmed to that work, I don't really see myself letting go of that strong opinion I now hold of this work.
It appears that I'm going to be finding myself entering into a Stravinsky-a-thon over the weekend. His voice is calling me: "John, this is Igor. Listen to my music and, remember, lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 01, 2017, 07:52:24 AM
It appears that I'm going to be finding myself entering into a Stravinsky-a-thon over the weekend...
May I suggest
Dumbarton Oaks on repeat?
Circus Polka: For a Young Elephant on continuous loop for an entire week, DO IT!!!!!! :D ;)
:laugh:
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 01, 2017, 11:57:30 AM
May I suggest Dumbarton Oaks on repeat?
Quote from: Le Moderniste on December 01, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
Circus Polka: For a Young Elephant on continuous loop for an entire week, DO IT!!!!!! :D ;)
:laugh:
Don't tempt me guys! :P
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 01, 2017, 06:18:55 AM
Hah! ;D
I can't say I know The Flood too well. I might have heard once many years ago, but given how awesome Les Noces is and how I've really warmed to that work, I don't really see myself letting go of that strong opinion I now hold of this work.
I thought you have the DG Stravinsky box? The Knussen recording of The Flood is in there.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 01, 2017, 05:17:11 PM
I thought you have the DG Stravinsky box? The Knussen recording of The Flood is in there.
Yep, I've got the DG set and Knussen's is in there, but I have yet to hear it. So much music, so little time. :)
Stumbled over this painting of IS I've not seen before.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.operawarhorses.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/STRAVINSKY-AGE-33-1915-400.jpg?w=281&ssl=1)
Artist was Jacques Emile Blanche, painted in 1915.
Cool painting. 8)
Just saw Le Sacre live and I'm really amazed how happy (and taken back) it made me despite hearing it millions of times before :o
Even though I think I love The Flood and Requiem Canticles more (both on a personal level and as a composer), The Rite Of Spring always will have a special place to me (and many others too). It's a work that, to be honest....I can't not say "wow" and be taken back every time I hear it.
Plus, because of it's influence, certain movements always remind me of certain other (later) composers that are also a huge part of my life.
e.g. The introduction to the second movement (rehearsal mark 83) always brings me back to Messiaen.
The sacrificial dance sometimes gets me in the mood for Xenakis (who used to be my most played composer). etc.
Yeah, Le Sacre is an amazing work :-*
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 01, 2017, 05:26:24 PM
Yep, I've got the DG set and Knussen's is in there, but I have yet to hear it. So much music, so little time. :)
Let's both see if we can get through 'The Flood' together, eh? I think I'm up for it, though I didn't make it very far last time.
Quote from: Le Moderniste on December 01, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
Circus Polka: For a Young Elephant on continuous loop for an entire week, DO IT!!!!!! :D ;)
:laugh:
only Karajan has that gosse step to it!
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 01, 2017, 05:52:28 PM
Stumbled over this painting of IS I've not seen before.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.operawarhorses.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/STRAVINSKY-AGE-33-1915-400.jpg?w=281&ssl=1)
Artist was Jacques Emile Blanche, painted in 1915.
It's on the cover of the Dutoit Symphonies disc...
Quote from: snyprrr on December 02, 2017, 07:31:36 AM
Let's both see if we can get through 'The Flood' together, eh? I think I'm up for it, though I didn't make it very far last time.
Well, I've got my own program I'm going to follow, so...you'll have to listen without me. :) Basically, what I want to do, is make my way through all the ballets again. Starting with
The Firebird of course.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2017, 07:36:36 AM
Well, I've got my own program I'm going to follow, so...you'll have to listen without me. :) Basically, what I want to do, is make my way through all the ballets again. Starting with The Firebird of course.
....zzZZZzzz.....
ok, well that should take you up to @4:35EST... I'll be waiting :P :P
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 01, 2017, 05:52:28 PM
Stumbled over this painting of IS I've not seen before.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.operawarhorses.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/STRAVINSKY-AGE-33-1915-400.jpg?w=281&ssl=1)
Artist was Jacques Emile Blanche, painted in 1915.
Interesting background too. Men crippled by the war, among other things.
'The Flood'
I'm losing at around the time Lucifer starts singing... the opening music is pretty ominous, tho...
ALEEEN- I don't know what you're hearing here that's so great... maybe this just falls under my "snyprrr rejects recitation" junctum. Maybe it's the English singing?
"Oh, LORD, Thy Will shall ever be wrought"
::)
Yea, I'm just not "getting it"... ithe music can be cool, but then some maaan has to start singing...
I do like the 'Building of the Ark' orchestral interlude...
BUT THEN COMES THE "COUNTING OF THE ANIMALS", OY VEY!!!
madness, I tell u
"The earth is overflowed with... flood" ::)
Yeah the singing isn't what gets me, the music is amazing
Ok, so the Flood:
Music - ✓
Choir - ✓
Narrator - ✓
Solo voice parts - ❌
Still, the lesser parts certainly don't overweigh how great it is 8)
This CD is excellent: (http://www.deccaclassics.com/imgs/s300x300/4832562.jpg)
It is now on spotify and I love it. To me, the Chant Funebre in its debut recording is like Rachmaninoff's "The Rock" in terms of style, quality, and significance. Though it might not have much in common with the composer's later more famous works, it is clearly cut from the same cloth and show cases a vivid early imaginative composer at full display. The rest of the CD is excellent. All early works prominently showing the Rimsky-Korsakov and French/Debussy influences. Chant Funebre is very French and very Russian full of mythology, pathos, and atmosphere. This CD is pure Stravinsky proto Firebird plus Rite of Spring all wonderfully performed and recorded. Don't miss this release!!
Classical CD Of The Week: Some Like It Plush;
Riccardo Chailly In Early And Rediscovered Stravinsky
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2018/01/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_STRAVINSKY_Chailly_DECCA_Lucerne_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960.jpg?width=960)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/15/cd-of-the-week-some-like-it-plush-riccardo-chailly-in-early-and-rediscovered-stravinsky/#43c9bb243e63 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/15/cd-of-the-week-some-like-it-plush-riccardo-chailly-in-early-and-rediscovered-stravinsky/#43c9bb243e63)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2018, 07:32:51 AM
Classical CD Of The Week: Some Like It Plush;
Riccardo Chailly In Early And Rediscovered Stravinsky
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2018/01/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_STRAVINSKY_Chailly_DECCA_Lucerne_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960.jpg?width=960)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/15/cd-of-the-week-some-like-it-plush-riccardo-chailly-in-early-and-rediscovered-stravinsky/#43c9bb243e63 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/15/cd-of-the-week-some-like-it-plush-riccardo-chailly-in-early-and-rediscovered-stravinsky/#43c9bb243e63)
I can't really see myself buying that recording for the simple fact that there are already too many
Le sacre performances on the market and I own almost all of them. ;) I listened to
Chant Funebre and it's a nice enough work, but not worth plunking down x amount of dollars just to own it. If only this new Chailly recording had a more enticing program.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2018, 07:35:36 AM
If only this new Chailly recording had a more enticing program.
"If only" indeed ::)
A lot of GMG boils down to this, eh? ahhh...
Something I've always wondered: is there a reason Boulez never really recorded Stravinsky's late works? He was so dismissive of the older composer's neoclassical period, one would think that the later serial adventures could've pleased him. I love many of his Stravinsky recordings, especially those he made for DG; if only he had taken up Threni, the Movements for Piano and Orchestra, Agon...
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on August 28, 2018, 06:31:03 AM
Something I've always wondered: is there a reason Boulez never really recorded Stravinsky's late works? He was so dismissive of the older composer's neoclassical period, one would think that the later serial adventures could've pleased him. I love many of his Stravinsky recordings, especially those he made for DG; if only he had taken up Threni, the Movements for Piano and Orchestra, Agon...
He helped prepare rehearsals of Threni, and it was an unmitigated disaster. Boulez blamed Stravinsky for being a poor conductor (true, he was not a great one), and Robert Craft certainly placed the blame on Boulez (you'll note Craft never conducted Boulez after those early Columbia recordings).
Boulez, for his part, said that Stravinsky's late works were just retreading ground that Webern had covered far better. It's a shame, because those works have needed champions like Boulez, who could bring out their many beauties.
Like the American works of Schoenberg, the influence of Stravinsky's late works has been felt primarily in the US. In Europe, the 12-tone method was deemed passé.
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 28, 2018, 06:58:33 AMIt's a shame, because those works have needed champions like Boulez, who could bring out their many beauties.
Amen. Thanks for your quick and informative reply! It's a shame Boulez thought the way he did about late Stravinsky, but let us not forget the huge service he did to Webern's music, literally making it more accessible to generations of musicians. There are (and will be) people who will champion Stravinsky's late works in a similar manner.
I'm so intrigued by the Movements of Piano and Orchestra. It's such a dense work, lasting only about ten minutes, but still so full of ideas and wit. I'm constantly in total awe when I listen to Stravinsky's serial works, he really made the idiom his own; it's unmistakably Stravinsky. It's infuriating how people still keep repeating the old story of Stravinsky only turning to serialism in order to fit in with the times.
Well, artists will often be rather . . . temperamental, and possibly even flighty.
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on August 28, 2018, 06:31:03 AM
Something I've always wondered: is there a reason Boulez never really recorded Stravinsky's late works? He was so dismissive of the older composer's neoclassical period, one would think that the later serial adventures could've pleased him. I love many of his Stravinsky recordings, especially those he made for DG; if only he had taken up Threni, the Movements for Piano and Orchestra, Agon...
As a complement to
Mahlerian's comments in reply to your question,
Ainsi la nuit, here is my reply when our fellow GMGer
Abuelo Igor addressed the same issue some years ago:
Quote from: ritter on May 15, 2015, 10:28:07 AM
The relationship between Stravinsky and Boulez must have been a very complex one, characterised I venture to say by mutual admiration and even love, but also mistrust, and a sort of father-son component (but also with Oedipical aspects ::)). For instance, Jésus Aguila, in his book on the Domaine Musical, points out that the only composer Boulez called a "genius" in any of the program notes he wrote for that concert series over so many years was Igor Fyodorovich. But, Boulez has never hidden his preference for the early, Russian Stravinsky (up to Les Noces, I'd say) and his dislike for the neo-classical (with the exception perhaps of Pulcinella, about which he wrote some very touching words in the program notes for a Stravinsky memorial concert when he was at the helm of the NYPO). This dislike for middle-period Stravinsky came to the forefront when the Boulez groupies (he himself apparently was not in the audience) booed the Danses concertantes and the Four Norwegian moods at a concert led by Manuel Rosenthal in Paris right after WWII (well, I for one can't blame them for disliking the Four Norwegian moods ;D ). But that is another story...
As far as the serial Stravinsky is concerned, Stephen Walsh (in the second volume, The Second Exile, of his wonderful biography of the Russian composer) sums it up quite cleverly: "It is not the least irony of these late pieces that they were generally rejected by that avant-garde which they seemed primarily designed to please. Fortunately, this is not necessarily any reflection on their intrinsic quality". This statement puts Boulez within the Zeitgeist of the post WW-II avant-garde, but perhaps since Boulez was an increasingly visible conductor from the 60s onwards, his relative neglect of late Stravinsky was more noticeable. Anyway, it is strking that in the index to the third volume of his writings (Leçons de musique, i.e. the lectures over many years at the Collège de France) not one single late Stravinsky work is mentioned.
As for Boulez's thoughts on late Stravinsky, Walsh quotes a letter to Lawrence Morton in which Boulez says that he finds the "Variations for orchestra less aggravating than Abraham and Isaac", the story of which he found "repellent". ;D. He then concludes that he "prefers Webern".
In concerts, Boulez did conduct or program late Stravinsky at the Domaine, sometimes triumphantly (the European première of Agon under the composer), sometimes disastrously (the famous Threni incident). There was also the Canticum Sacrum and the Vom Himmel hoch variations (under Robert Craft, I believe). Jésus Aguila interestingly points out that Boulez was attacked both by the traditionalists and the avant-gardists for bringing Stravinsky to the Domaine. The conservative Bernard Gavoty wrote something to the effect that Stravisnky was being used to lure audiences to the Domaine concerts under false pretenses, while the notoriously fundamentalist Antoine Goléa on the other hand would say that offering these "bad" (late) Stravinsky works in the Salle Pleyel meant that better music could not be offered at the Salle Gaveau. >:(. It thus cannot be ruled out that some musical Realpolitik had an influence in Boulez's attitude. Yet, even after the Threni fiasco, in his 80th birthday tribute to Stravinsky in 1961--one year early ::)--, Boulez conducted (along with earlier music) the Three Songs from Shakespeare and In memoriam Dylan Thomas.
One work Boulez has conducted a couple of times at least (and as late as in 1996 with the LAPO, at the Ojai Festival IIRC) is Agon (but, alas, he's never recorded it).
Finally, as far as recordings are concerned, we have the late songs on DG, A Sermon, a narrative and a prayer live from the Théatre des Champs-Elysées on the defunct Montaigne label, The Flood (in German! :( ) on a Col Legno issue from Munich (Musica Viva series) and then, on a long OOP Stradivarius CD, the "repellent" ;) Abraham and Isaac (with Scipio Colombo, a well known Scarpia in his day) and the Elegy for J.F.K. with Cathy Berberian, live from Rome in 1965. That's all there is, AFAIK.
(https://www.melomania.com/var/images/disques/biggest/532054.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/046/MI0001046109.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.col-legno.com/pics_db/20084_1_boulez_mv4.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/762/MI0003762318.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
EDIT: Since writing this, I've found out that Boulez did conduct Threni at least once (in Munich, in Karl Amadeus Hartmann's Musica Viva series, in 1959).
Quote from: ritter on May 15, 2015, 01:37:59 PM
Here's the short paean to Stravinsky published by Boulez in the program to the NYPO's memorial concert in 1971 (with the Requiem Canticles on the program):
(http://i62.tinypic.com/11ugj2u.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2c0vas.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/33yrfcw.jpg)
It should be noted that the erratum (stemming from the original mansucript ::) ) that describes Pétrouchka as the piece with an "unusual mixture of vigor, aggressiveness, poetry...", when Boulez is clearly thinking of Pulcinella, was corrected when this text was reproduced in the 2nd volume of Points de repère (Regards sur autrui).
Regards to all from a short holiday in Alsace, after some days in Bayreuth (where I saw a
Meistersinger which will remain I my memory as long as I live—simply stunning!! :) ).
As a complement to the previous post (very little activity in the
IS thread as of late :(), this new release:
A recording of
Stravinsky's
Movements for Piano and Orchestra, with
Boulez conducting the EIC and no less a figure than
Sviatoslav Richter at the keyboard has just been released (live from 1985, I understand).
[asin]B07RGWTL38[/asin]
The disc also includes the
Capriccio with the same forces, plus
Debussy's
Fantaisie conducted by
Barenboim, plus solo pieces by Rachmaninov and Scriabin.
EDIT: Prospective buyers beware!
Quote from: ritter on June 17, 2019, 05:49:52 AM
"In high fidelity sound" my foot! >:( Tape hiss galore, assorted clicks, etc. The expectation of hearing these two great artists perform Stravinsky (one neoclassical piece, one serial--both new to the Boulez discography) together is shattered by the dismal sound and sloppy transfers. For completists (of either artist) only. :(
Quote from: ritter on May 31, 2019, 11:38:38 AM
As a complement to the previous post (very little activity in the IS thread as of late :(), this new release:
A recording of Stravinsky's Movements for Piano and Orchestra, with Boulez conducting the EIC and no less a figure than Sviatoslav Richter at the keyboard has just been released (live from 1985, I understand).
[asin]B07RGWTL38[/asin]
The disc also includes the Capriccio with the same forces, plus Debussy's Fantaisie conducted by Barenboim, plus solo pieces by Rachmaninov and Scriabin.
Very nice. I'd say I'm much more of an admirer of the
Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments than
Movements or
Capriccio.
Quote from: ritter on May 31, 2019, 11:38:38 AM
As a complement to the previous post (very little activity in the IS thread as of late :( ), this new release:
A recording of Stravinsky's Movements for Piano and Orchestra, with Boulez conducting the EIC and no less a figure than Sviatoslav Richter at the keyboard has just been released (live from 1985, I understand).
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B07RGWTL38.01.L.jpg)
The disc also includes the Capriccio with the same forces, plus Debussy's Fantaisie conducted by Barenboim, plus solo pieces by Rachmaninov and Scriabin.
Très interessant!
Whereas Schoenberg's relatively few words represent his deepest convictions about serious matters, Stravinsky's many verbal expressions reflect a restless, changeable, volatile figure who accepts the fluctuations of his personality apparently without difficulty.In the foreword to his autobiography he acknowledged his infidelities: "As I call my recollections to mind, I shall nearly be obliged to speak of my opinions, my tastes, my preferences, and my abhorrences. I am but too well aware of how much these feelings vary in the course of time. This is why I shall great care not to confuse my present reactions with those experienced at other stages of my life.
Very interesting, Karl. I didn't remember that passage from when I read the Chroniques de ma vie years ago. Reading Stephen Walsh's biography of dear old Igor Fyodorovich, one gets a clear picture of these changes in opinion. For instance, his view of Mahler improved temendously, from being called "Malheur" in the 40s, to be parised in the books he wrote with Craft (even if that praise does seem to be given mainly to attack Richard Strauss). Likewise, Walsh quotes letters praisng Parsifal (which Stravinsky saw in Monte Carlo in 1913) through the roof, but by the 1930s (not to mention the conversation books) Wagner had become a sort of bête noire. Actually, there's one incendiary article from the 1930s (in an anthology of IS's writings from those years--published by Actes Su--that I do not have at ahnd right now) damning all German music (except for Bach). IS's opinions on other composer genearlly give the impression that he has some axe to grind, and I think must be taken with some caution. ;)
It all really boils down to this: all major composers like Stravinsky or Wagner have said nasty things of other composers. I don't find these types of opinions very interesting because they don't do anything to elevate the composer in any way, it's their music that does the elevation. What this or that composer thought of another composer doesn't interest me one bit. I have come to the conclusion that knowing extramusical facts about a composer doesn't actually change nor enhance my appreciation of said composer. The human being is such a complicated entity and this entity lives through their music, so knowing who they were married to or what their opinion of another composer is doesn't matter in the end. I do rather enjoy reading about the genesis of works that I love or how this work came to be, but even this doesn't matter when you're actively listening to a composer's music.
In addition the reader has to keep in mind IS's utterances were usually filtered through Kraft, who edited and in many cases co-authored the material. So one is never sure who is talking.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 04, 2019, 02:54:14 PM
Whereas Schoenberg's relatively few words represent his deepest convictions about serious matters, Stravinsky's many verbal expressions reflect a restless, changeable, volatile figure who accepts the fluctuations of his personality apparently without difficulty.In the foreword to his autobiography he acknowledged his infidelities: "As I call my recollections to mind, I shall nearly be obliged to speak of my opinions, my tastes, my preferences, and my abhorrences. I am but too well aware of how much these feelings vary in the course of time. This is why I shall great care not to confuse my present reactions with those experienced at other stages of my life.
Quote from: Herman on June 07, 2019, 11:14:33 PM
In addition the reader has to keep in mind IS's utterances were usually filtered through Kraft, who edited and in many cases co-authored the material. So one is never sure who is talking.
Indeed!
Symphony in CThoughts on this piece? I've become kind of hooked on it recently, listening to it several days in a row. (LSO/Davis recording)
Which surprises me - I'd listened to it a couple of times and thought "that's nice, but it's inferior to
Symphony in Three Movements." Now I'm not so sure. There's a lot of neoclassical punch and attitude, and some interesting gestures, like the slow, melancholy fade at the end, which is so different in mood from the rest of the piece.
So I mostly ignored it for years, but suddenly I'm hooked on it.
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on August 28, 2018, 06:31:03 AM
Something I've always wondered: is there a reason Boulez never really recorded Stravinsky's late works? He was so dismissive of the older composer's neoclassical period,
Are you sure about this? I heard Boulez do a sizzling
Symphony in Three Movements with the CSO, and he's recorded it and some other pieces from that period, I think. Boulez would sometimes express his disdain for a composer, and then turn right around in his estimation.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 14, 2019, 06:26:08 AM
Symphony in C
Thoughts on this piece? I've become kind of hooked on it recently, listening to it several days in a row. (LSO/Davis recording)
Long ago, I was underwhelmed by the
Symphony in C, but now, yes, I like it a great deal.
^Well, boys, I'm going to have to revisit the Symphony in C on account of this recent discussion, as it's never left much of a mark on me either, but I'm sure there is something to it. I have the Stravinsky/CBC Symphony recording.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/710E3eYjSIL._SY355_.jpg)
It's a great piece and I like the Stravinsky recording. I also slightly prefer the "in 3 movements" but the "in C" is still a formidable piece.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 14, 2019, 02:14:40 PM
^Well, boys, I'm going to have to revisit the Symphony in C on account of this recent discussion, as it's never left much of a mark on me either, but I'm sure there is something to it. I have the Stravinsky/CBC Symphony recording.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/710E3eYjSIL._SY355_.jpg)
Huge fan of the Symphony of Psalms and this recording.
Yes, that is definitely my favorite recording of the Symphony of Psalms. Miles beyond the other recording I have, Boulez/Berlin, who seem to rush through the third movement. The other two symphonies are also great, especially the Symphony in 3 Movements. I won't be seeking out any further recordings of these works. I think the composer's conducting in these three works is definitive, unlike the Rite of Spring and Petrushka, in which I like his recordings but prefer others'.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2019, 02:34:46 AM
Yes, that is definitely my favorite recording of the Symphony of Psalms. Miles beyond the other recording I have, Boulez/Berlin, who seem to rush through the third movement. The other two symphonies are also great, especially the Symphony in 3 Movements. I won't be seeking out any further recordings of these works. I think the composer's conducting in these three works is definitive, unlike the Rite of Spring and Petrushka, in which I like his recordings but prefer others'.
You should look into this one. It's criminal that it's out of print, but there are used copies at least.
[asin]B000002ZO4[/asin]
^That looks great. Thanks, I'll have to check it out for sure. I don't have a recording of the Mass or the Canticum Sacrum either.
Quote from: North Star on August 15, 2019, 03:26:30 AM
You should look into this one. It's criminal that it's out of print, but there are used copies at least.
[asin]B000002ZO4[/asin]
I like the Tilson-Thomas as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIWn7z7t3ZA
I don't know how to embed videos here, but this recent one is well worth a watch. It's a general analysis of the late works of Stravinsky. Fascinating stuff.
Quote from: North Star on August 15, 2019, 03:26:30 AM
You should look into this one. It's criminal that it's out of print, but there are used copies at least.
[asin]B000002ZO4[/asin]
+1 A stunning recording.
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 03, 2020, 04:05:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/AIWn7z7t3ZA
I don't know how to embed videos here, but this recent one is well worth a watch. It's a general analysis of the late works of Stravinsky. Fascinating stuff.
Samuel Andreyev has done some great videos and he's quite knowledgable about the subject matter he's talking about. As for embedding YouTube videos, this should help:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2663.0.html (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2663.0.html)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2020, 07:45:16 PM
Samuel Andreyev has done some great videos and he's quite knowledgable about the subject matter he's talking about. As for embedding YouTube videos, this should help:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2663.0.html (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2663.0.html)
Bookmarked, thanks. Yes, I enjoy Andreyev's videos. I love that he has made analysis videos that go on for 20-30 minutes on the subject of two-minute Webern opuses. ;D
I really want that Hyperion recording now... what little I sampled sounds great.
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 04, 2020, 03:40:47 AM
Bookmarked, thanks. Yes, I enjoy Andreyev's videos. I love that he has made analysis videos that go on for 20-30 minutes on the subject of two-minute Webern opuses. ;D
I really want that Hyperion recording now... what little I sampled sounds great.
If you can find that O'Donnell recording of Stravinsky's
Symphony of Psalms,
Mass, etc. for a good price, then jump on it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2020, 06:00:40 AM
If you can find that O'Donnell recording of Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, Mass, etc. for a good price, then jump on it.
I'll be keeping my eyes peeled. I may have mentioned this already, but my go-to recording of the Symphony of Psalms is Stravinsky himself conducting the CBC SO. Great performance!
edit: Yes, I see I already talked about this a few posts back ;D But I keep an open mind about these things. In the grand scheme of things, I am still new to Igor's music.
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 02:33:14 AM
I'll be keeping my eyes peeled. I may have mentioned this already, but my go-to recording of the Symphony of Psalms is Stravinsky himself conducting the CBC SO. Great performance!
edit: Yes, I see I already talked about this a few posts back ;D But I keep an open mind about these things. In the grand scheme of things, I am still new to Igor's music.
I don't think much of Stravinsky's own recordings. Initially I did because this was my first exposure to his music 11 years ago, but I've since come to the conclusion that he was a lousy conductor. Historically speaking, those Stravinsky-led performances are important, but they are nowhere near authoritative. Since you like the Naxos label a lot, do check out all of the reissues of Robert Craft's Stravinsky. His performances are highly rated. Our resident Stravinskian, Karl Henning, has nothing but great things to say about Craft's Stravinsky. Where Craft fails, IMHO, are the early ballets
Firebird,
Petrouchka, and
Le sacre du printemps. Where he excels are the lesser-known ones like
Apollo,
Jeu de cartes,
Pulcinella,
Orpheus,
Agon, etc. Do check out his series on Naxos.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2020, 07:02:44 AM
I don't think much of Stravinsky's own recordings. Initially I did because this was my first exposure to his music 11 years ago, but I've since come to the conclusion that he was a lousy conductor. Historically speaking, those Stravinsky-led performances are important, but they are nowhere near authoritative. Since you like the Naxos label a lot, do check out all of the reissues of Robert Craft's Stravinsky. His performances are highly rated. Our resident Stravinskian, Karl Henning, has nothing but great things to say about Craft's Stravinsky. Where Craft fails, IMHO, are the early ballets Firebird, Petrouchka, and Le sacre du printemps. Where he excels are the lesser-known ones like Apollo, Jeu de cartes, Pulcinella, Orpheus, Agon, etc. Do check out his series on Naxos.
Will do. So I have heard a bit of Craft's Stravinsky on Naxos, namely Le Sacre and the Nightingale (the complete opera). Though I was more impressed at first with his Le Sacre, I'm more inclined to agree with you now that it was a less than totally successful performance.
I've been meaning to grab this disc for some time now:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DnYeXXSKL._SL1310_.jpg)
Just might pull the trigger right now (if I can find a cheap one)... :)
Anyway, I like what I've heard of Stravinsky's recordings, I think he had a pretty acute understanding of his own music (obviously), but I wouldn't agree with anyone who'd say his recordings are the end-all be-all of his music.
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 04:44:56 PM
Will do. So I have heard a bit of Craft's Stravinsky on Naxos, namely Le Sacre and the Nightingale (the complete opera). Though I was more impressed at first with his Le Sacre, I'm more inclined to agree with you now that it was a less than totally successful performance.
I've been meaning to grab this disc for some time now:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DnYeXXSKL._SL1310_.jpg)
Just might pull the trigger right now (if I can find a cheap one)... :)
Anyway, I like what I've heard of Stravinsky's recordings, I think he had a pretty acute understanding of his own music (obviously), but I wouldn't agree with anyone who'd say his recordings are the end-all be-all of his music.
That
Three Greek Ballets recording from Craft is top-drawer and I'd buy it immediately. I love how each of these ballets are on the same recording forming that Grecian theme. A worthwhile purchase. My Stravinsky collection is complete so I'm merely filling in gaps at this point, but this could be said for any of my favorite composers.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2020, 04:56:02 PM
That Three Greek Ballets recording from Craft is top-drawer and I'd buy it immediately. I love how each of these ballets are on the same recording forming that Grecian theme. A worthwhile purchase. My Stravinsky collection is complete so I'm merely filling in gaps at this point, but this could be said for any of my favorite composers.
Well I pulled the trigger. For $9 brand new? What the hell. (Though this is the attitude that is going to make me go broke if I let it last much longer... ;D ...) What I found interesting about this disc is that the three Greek ballets are from very different cross sections of his career: 1928 (Apollo), 1948 (Orpheus), and 1957 (Agon) – but they all ultimately center on Stravinsky's obsession with the Neoclassical ideal. Ah, what a phenomenal composer... One of the greatest of all time, I think.
PS. I didn't realize Orpheus had been written so late in Stravinsky's career. It would fit right in with his style in the 1920s, no? I really like the Salonen/Philharmonia recording of Orpheus, which I have on a disc coupled with my favorite recording of Petrouchka.
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 05:05:04 PM
Well I pulled the trigger. For $9 brand new? What the hell. (Though this is the attitude that is going to make me go broke if I let it last much longer... ;D ...) What I found interesting about this disc is that the three Greek ballets are from very different cross sections of his career: 1928 (Apollo), 1948 (Orpheus), and 1957 (Agon) – but they all ultimately center on Stravinsky's obsession with the Neoclassical ideal. Ah, what a phenomenal composer... One of the greatest of all time, I think.
PS. I didn't realize Orpheus had been written so late in Stravinsky's career. It would fit right in with his style in the 1920s, no? I really like the Salonen/Philharmonia recording of Orpheus, which I have on a disc coupled with my favorite recording of Petrouchka.
Stravinsky is, indeed, an incredible composer. One of the greatest of all-time, absolutely. There's no question about that. I'm not sure I'd agree that
Orpheus would fit in with his style from the 1920s. We have to remember that he was still under this Neoclassical spell well into the '50s. I believe around the mid-50s or so is when he started to experiment with Serialism. I love all periods of his compositional development, but, lately, I've taken quite a shine to his Serialist period mainly because I still feel it's his most overlooked period.
Agon is one of the great examples of how he used 12-tone technique. Of course, Stravinsky being Stravinsky, be brought his own personality to the music and made it his own.
^Maybe I'm not familiar enough with his works from the 1940s, but all I mean is that it sounds more akin to Apollo than, say, the Symphony in 3 Movements.
I agree that his serial music is amazing and still has just as much of that distinct Stravinskyan flavor as anything else he wrote earlier. I especially love the Requiem Canticles, an amazing work. I need to hear Agon. Looking forward to getting that Craft disc with it.
All I can say is I wish Stravinsky wrote more chamber music, especially string quartets.
Edit: It seems he has composed more chamber music than I initially thought -
Three Pieces for String Quartet (1914)
Pour Pablo Picasso, piece for clarinet (1917)
Canon for Two Horns (1917)
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments (1917–18)
Duet for Two Bassoons, "Lied ohne Namen" (1918)
Suite from L'Histoire du soldat, for violin, clarinet, and piano (1919)
Three Pieces for Clarinet (1919)
Concertino, for string quartet (1920)
Symphonies of Wind Instruments (1920, rev. 1947)
Octet for Wind Instruments (1923)
Suite on themes, fragments and pieces by Giambattista Pergolesi, for violin and piano (1925)
Duo Concertant for Violin and Piano (1932)
Suite italienne (from Pulcinella), for cello and piano (1932/33) (in collaboration with Gregor Piatigorsky)
Suite italienne (from Pulcinella), for violin and piano (1934) (in collaboration with Samuel Dushkin)
Preludium for Jazz Band (1936/37)
Elegy, for solo viola (1944)
Ebony Concerto for clarinet and jazz band (1945)
Septet for clarinet, horn, bassoon, violin, viola, cello, and piano (1953)
Concertino, for small ensemble (1953) (arrangement of 1920 work for string quartet)
Epitaphium, for flute, clarinet and harp (1959)
Double Canon, for string quartet 'Raoul Dufy in Memoriam' (1959)
Monumentum pro Gesualdo di Venosa ad CD annum, for chamber ensemble (1960)
"Asciugate I begli ochi"
"Ma tu, cagion di quella"
"Belta poi che t'assenti"
Lullaby, for two recorders (1960) (arrangement of item from The Rake's Progress, 1951)
Fanfare for a New Theatre, for two trumpets (1964)
Quote from: Andy D. on August 15, 2019, 02:18:50 AM
Huge fan of the Symphony of Psalms and this recording. [Stravinsky conducting]
You can also count me among the fans of it. Those Columbia recordings with Stravinsky conducting were my introduction to most of his music and have remained the ones I usually listen to. There are those who complain about his alleged faults as a conductor but they don't bother me. ;) I simply ignore them and happily enjoy the music-making.
8)
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 07, 2020, 07:44:33 AM
^Maybe I'm not familiar enough with his works from the 1940s, but all I mean is that it sounds more akin to Apollo than, say, the Symphony in 3 Movements.
I agree that his serial music is amazing and still has just as much of that distinct Stravinskyan flavor as anything else he wrote earlier. I especially love the Requiem Canticles, an amazing work. I need to hear Agon. Looking forward to getting that Craft disc with it.
Well, my point, more or less, is that Stravinsky is quite the musical chameleon. His progression is difficult to chart because there's such a unique compositional voice at work in his music and everything (and I mean every aspect of his music) was painstakingly considered. I always thought of him as someone who was meticulous when it came to actually notating the actual music as well. There's never a note wasted in any of his music and, for this reason, I put him in the same category as Debussy, Ravel, Bartók, Webern, among others. All of these composers put so much time into their music and making sure there wasn't a note out-of-place.
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2020, 12:19:44 PM
Ended up listening to this whole recording:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODMxNDk1Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0OTcxNjk3NzR9)
I can only say that I'm deeply enthralled by this recording and can't wait to listen to the second volume. These are authoritative performances. Both Gringolts and Laul sound completely at home in the music. They rise to the technical challenges, but, also, are able to bring out all of the nuances in each work. Like, for example, I never heard the last movement (Dithyrambe) of Duo concertant played with such conviction and heart. I felt the emotion in these performances. So beautiful. I'm also confident when I say this is the best recording of any of these works I've heard and I'm quite aware of these works' discographies --- I also own Marwood/Adès on Hyperion and Keulen/Mustonen on Philips. The audio quality is also what you'd expect from BIS at this juncture. A+ all across the board.
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 05:05:04 PM
PS. I didn't realize Orpheus had been written so late in Stravinsky's career. It would fit right in with his style in the 1920s, no? I really like the Salonen/Philharmonia recording of Orpheus, which I have on a disc coupled with my favorite recording of Petrouchka.
That Salonen disc is really great. His Orpheus is mesmerizing.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2020, 12:11:01 PM
Well, my point, more or less, is that Stravinsky is quite the musical chameleon. His progression is difficult to chart because there's such a unique compositional voice at work in his music and everything (and I mean every aspect of his music) was painstakingly considered. I always thought of him as someone who was meticulous when it came to actually notating the actual music as well. There's never a note wasted in any of his music and, for this reason, I put him in the same category as Debussy, Ravel, Bartók, Webern, among others. All of these composers put so much time into their music and making sure there wasn't a note out-of-place.
No arguments there. Stravinsky definitely belongs to that category of composers.
Quote from: Herman on January 07, 2020, 12:47:54 PM
That Salonen disc is really great. His Orpheus is mesmerizing.
It is a damn fine disc. I have Salonen conducting the Firebird and Jeu de cartes, but I am less impressed with it. But I think that is more to do with the music itself than anything.
Nice talk on Stravinsky's late style:
https://www.youtube.com/v/AIWn7z7t3ZA
He recommends 3 discs at the end:
[asin]B000003GAF[/asin][asin]B000001GPK[/asin][asin]B00GWS990Q[/asin]
Aside from this one and the recording of Threni in the Stravinsky Edition, I know of only one other recording of Threni. It was conducted by Robert Craft (who also had a hand in the Stravinsky Edition recording), and predates his Naxos Stravinsky series.
[asin]B00005YDJC[/asin]
Quote from: Daverz on January 12, 2020, 01:04:35 PM
Nice talk on Stravinsky's late style:
https://www.youtube.com/v/AIWn7z7t3ZA
He recommends 3 discs at the end:
[asin]B000003GAF[/asin][asin]B000001GPK[/asin][asin]B00GWS990Q[/asin]
Aside from this one and the recording of Threni in the Stravinsky Edition, I know of only one other recording of Threni. It was conducted by Robert Craft (who also had a hand in the Stravinsky Edition recording), and predates his Naxos Stravinsky series.
[asin]B00005YDJC[/asin]
I haven't seen that video, but it looks appealing and I'll certainly take a look at it sometime soon. The recordings he recommends, though, are all excellent, particularly IMHO the
Knussen disc--which is one of the very best traversals of
IS's late music available--and the
Herreweghe Threni--which is vastly superior to the previous two recordings, by the composer and by
Robert Craft. In
Herreweghe's hands, the beauty of this great but difficult score blossoms completely. A great achievement!
BTW, the
Craft recording had been OOP for years, and very diffcult to get, until it was included in the "Compete Edition" box on DG (which now seems to be OOP as well):
[asin]B013FFSG7U[/asin]
I've been enjoying Salonen's Oedipus Rex recording for a couple of days now.
Quote from: Herman on January 13, 2020, 01:08:37 AM
I've been enjoying Salonen's Oedipus Rex recording for a couple of days now.
I've heard great things about this work but never heard it. Is Salonen the recording to get?
I don't know how easy it is to get it, but it's one of the better recordings. Another one is Ozawa with Jessye Norman et al, but there the orchestra is not as snappy as Salonen's Swedish orchestra.
It's a very strange, parodic work.
Quote from: ritter on January 12, 2020, 11:58:17 PM
I haven't seen that video, but it looks appealing and I'll certainly take a look at it sometime soon. The recordings he recommends, though, are all excellent, particularly IMHO the Knussen disc--which is one of the very best traversals of IS's late music available--and the Herreweghe Threni--which is vastly superior to the previous two recordings, by the composer and by Robert Craft. In Herreweghe's hands, the beauty of this great but difficult score blossoms completely. A great achievement!
BTW, the Craft recording had been OOP for years, and very diffcult to get, until it was included in the "Compete Edition" box on DG (which now seems to be OOP as well):
[asin]B013FFSG7U[/asin]
Yes, I've had the first two recordings for a long time, since I was fascinated by this phase of Stravinsky's ouvre, which is why I had the Craft/Koch recording as well.
DG licensed the Koch recording? Well done.
I've heard the Herreweghe now, and it's gorgeous, almost gracious on the ears. I think the Craft/Koch recording is still a great accomplishment. If you follow the Amazon link you'll find a detailed consideration by someone named "Karl Henning".
The Fanfare reviewer, Ronald E. Grames, seemed to feel the warmth of the Herreweghe was not an asset:
"The qualities, however, that make the performances of the shorter works successful weaken the drama of the larger works, where sharp rhythms, clear attacks,
distinct dynamic contrasts, and a coolness of coloration are an important part of the sound the composer was seeking. Herreweghe's warmer, more refined
approach is antithetical in both works to Stravinsky's primitivism and ritualistic vigor. The result is attractive in a way, but too often at the expense of tension, clear
delineation of contrasting elements—note how in the ritualistic Threni, the choral Hebrew-letter headings fail to stand out—and forward drive."
He thought the
Requiem Canticles worked better. I'm not inclined to second-guess warmth and beauty, but I'll take it under advisement here.
Quote from: Daverz on January 13, 2020, 12:49:52 PM
Yes, I've had the first two recordings for a long time, since I was fascinated by this phase of Stravinsky's ouvre, which is why I had the Craft/Koch recording as well.
DG licensed the Koch recording? Well done.
I've heard the Herreweghe now, and it's gorgeous, almost gracious on the ears. I think the Craft/Koch recording is still a great accomplishment. If you follow the Amazon link you'll find a detailed consideration by someone named "Karl Henning".
The Fanfare reviewer, Ronald E. Grames, seemed to feel the warmth of the Herreweghe was not an asset:
"The qualities, however, that make the performances of the shorter works successful weaken the drama of the larger works, where sharp rhythms, clear attacks,
distinct dynamic contrasts, and a coolness of coloration are an important part of the sound the composer was seeking. Herreweghe's warmer, more refined
approach is antithetical in both works to Stravinsky's primitivism and ritualistic vigor. The result is attractive in a way, but too often at the expense of tension, clear
delineation of contrasting elements—note how in the ritualistic Threni, the choral Hebrew-letter headings fail to stand out—and forward drive."
He thought the Requiem Canticles worked better. I'm not inclined to second-guess warmth and beauty, but I'll take it under advisement here.
The
Craft/Koch was the first
Threni I heard, so I've something of a sentimental attachment to it, but certainly the
Herreweghe is exquisite.
After two weeks of listening to Oedipus Rex, which I can't help finding a total hoot, I think people expect a very solemn work, based on the title and subject, but that's not what I'm hearing.
After two weeks of that I'm listening to the Requiem Canticles and reading the 2nd volume of Stephen Walsh, with al the shenanigans in IS's last years, a really sad spectacle, reminding me where my intense antipathy towards Craft comes from.
This set is really very good, IMO.
(https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4783028.jpg)
Quote from: Herman on January 27, 2020, 03:14:13 AM
After two weeks of listening to Oedipus Rex, which I can't help finding a total hoot, I think people expect a very solemn work, based on the title and subject, but that's not what I'm hearing.
After two weeks of that I'm listening to the Requiem Canticles and reading the 2nd volume of Stephen Walsh, with al the shenanigans in IS's last years, a really sad spectacle, reminding me where my intense antipathy towards Craft comes from.
The Walsh is a great read, and I hear you.
Quote from: San Antone on January 27, 2020, 03:27:04 AM
This set is really very good, IMO.
(https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4783028.jpg)
I'll bet; I am guessing that it is the
Dutoit/Montréal Le sacre.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 27, 2020, 03:42:14 AM
I'll bet; I am guessing that it is the Dutoit/Montréal Le sacre.
Chailly, Cleveland Orchestra.
Works on This Recording
Firebird by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Charles Dutoit
Orchestra/Ensemble: Montreal Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: Russia
Date of Recording: 10/1984
Venue: Eglise de St. Eustache, Montreal
Length: 46 Minutes 34 Secs.
Symphony in Three Movements by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1942-1945; USA
Date of Recording: 1991
Venue: Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin
Length: 22 Minutes 12 Secs.
Symphony in C by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1939-1940; USA
Date of Recording: 1991
Venue: Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin
Length: 27 Minutes 35 Secs.
Symphonies of Wind Instruments by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1920; France
Date of Recording: 1991
Venue: Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin
Length: 8 Minutes 59 Secs.
Pulcinella by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Anna Caterina Antonacci (Soprano), Pietro Ballo (Tenor), William Shimell (Bass)
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: Switzerland
Pétrouchka by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: Switzerland
Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Olli Mustonen (Piano)
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1928-1929; France
Date of Recording: 1992
Venue: Schauspielhaus, Berlin
Length: 17 Minutes 20 Secs.
Movements for Piano and Orchestra by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Olli Mustonen (Piano)
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1961; USA
Date of Recording: 1992
Venue: Schauspielhaus, Berlin
Length: 9 Minutes 37 Secs.
Scherzo à la russe by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Bernard Haitink
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1943-1944; USA
Scènes de ballet by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Bernard Haitink
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1944; USA
Date of Recording: 1989
Apollon musagète by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: France
Scherzo fantastique, Op. 3 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1907-1908; Russia
Scherzo fantastique, Op. 3 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1907-1908; Russia
Date of Recording: 11/1994
Venue: Philharmonic Hall, St. Petersburg
Length: 11 Minutes 2 Secs.
Symphony no 1 in E flat major, Op. 1 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1905-1907; Russia
Date of Recording: 05/1995
Venue: Philharmonic Hall, St. Petersburg
Length: 35 Minutes 5 Secs.
Fireworks, Op. 4 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1908; Russia
Date of Recording: 05/1995
Venue: Philharmonic Hall, St. Petersburg
Length: 3 Minutes 42 Secs.
Les noces by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Galina Bojko (Soprano), L'udovit Ludha (Tenor), Margarita Maruna (Mezzo Soprano),
Egils Silins (Bass Baritone)
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Piano Circus, Ernst Senff Chorus
Period: 20th Century
Written: Switzerland
Orpheus by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1947; USA
Jeu de cartes by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1937; France
Agon by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1957; USA
Le sacre du printemps by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Cleveland Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1911-1913
Date of Recording: 11/1985
Venue: Masonic Auditorium, Cleveland, Ohio
Length: 32 Minutes 46 Secs.
Quote from: San Antone on January 27, 2020, 03:50:02 AM
Chailly, Cleveland Orchestra.
Works on This Recording
Firebird by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Charles Dutoit
Orchestra/Ensemble: Montreal Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: Russia
Date of Recording: 10/1984
Venue: Eglise de St. Eustache, Montreal
Length: 46 Minutes 34 Secs.
Symphony in Three Movements by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1942-1945; USA
Date of Recording: 1991
Venue: Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin
Length: 22 Minutes 12 Secs.
Symphony in C by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1939-1940; USA
Date of Recording: 1991
Venue: Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin
Length: 27 Minutes 35 Secs.
Symphonies of Wind Instruments by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1920; France
Date of Recording: 1991
Venue: Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin
Length: 8 Minutes 59 Secs.
Pulcinella by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Anna Caterina Antonacci (Soprano), Pietro Ballo (Tenor), William Shimell (Bass)
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: Switzerland
Pétrouchka by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: Switzerland
Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Olli Mustonen (Piano)
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1928-1929; France
Date of Recording: 1992
Venue: Schauspielhaus, Berlin
Length: 17 Minutes 20 Secs.
Movements for Piano and Orchestra by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Olli Mustonen (Piano)
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1961; USA
Date of Recording: 1992
Venue: Schauspielhaus, Berlin
Length: 9 Minutes 37 Secs.
Scherzo à la russe by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Bernard Haitink
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1943-1944; USA
Scènes de ballet by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Bernard Haitink
Orchestra/Ensemble: Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1944; USA
Date of Recording: 1989
Apollon musagète by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: France
Scherzo fantastique, Op. 3 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1907-1908; Russia
Scherzo fantastique, Op. 3 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1907-1908; Russia
Date of Recording: 11/1994
Venue: Philharmonic Hall, St. Petersburg
Length: 11 Minutes 2 Secs.
Symphony no 1 in E flat major, Op. 1 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1905-1907; Russia
Date of Recording: 05/1995
Venue: Philharmonic Hall, St. Petersburg
Length: 35 Minutes 5 Secs.
Fireworks, Op. 4 by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1908; Russia
Date of Recording: 05/1995
Venue: Philharmonic Hall, St. Petersburg
Length: 3 Minutes 42 Secs.
Les noces by Igor Stravinsky
Performer: Galina Bojko (Soprano), L'udovit Ludha (Tenor), Margarita Maruna (Mezzo Soprano),
Egils Silins (Bass Baritone)
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Piano Circus, Ernst Senff Chorus
Period: 20th Century
Written: Switzerland
Orpheus by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1947; USA
Jeu de cartes by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1937; France
Agon by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1957; USA
Le sacre du printemps by Igor Stravinsky
Conductor: Riccardo Chailly
Orchestra/Ensemble: Cleveland Orchestra
Period: 20th Century
Written: 1911-1913
Date of Recording: 11/1985
Venue: Masonic Auditorium, Cleveland, Ohio
Length: 32 Minutes 46 Secs.
Thanks! It does all look very good.
One Stravinsky work that isn't in the above Universal box is the 1944-48 Mass, the work I have been listening to after weeks of listening to Oedipus Rex.
The Mass is for SABT choir (Stravinksy wanted a bunch of boys for the soprano part) and double wind quartet.
It's very spare and very lovely. The composer wanted no vibrato in the choir, which was hard to get by first.
I have a couple recordings and the one that works best for me is the Reinbert de Leeuw recording on erstwhile Philips.
Quote from: Herman on February 20, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
One Stravinsky work that isn't in the above Universal box is the 1944-48 Mass, the work I have been listening to after weeks of listening to Oedipus Rex.
The Mass is for SABT choir (Stravinksy wanted a bunch of boys for the soprano part) and double wind quartet.
It's very spare and very lovely. The composer wanted no vibrato in the choir, which was hard to get by first.
I have a couple recordings and the one that works best for me is the Reinbert de Leeuw recording on erstwhile Philips.
That is a beauty.
Quote from: Herman on February 20, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
One Stravinsky work that isn't in the above Universal box is the 1944-48 Mass, the work I have been listening to after weeks of listening to Oedipus Rex.
The Mass is for SABT choir (Stravinksy wanted a bunch of boys for the soprano part) and double wind quartet.
It's very spare and very lovely. The composer wanted no vibrato in the choir, which was hard to get by first.
I have a couple recordings and the one that works best for me is the Reinbert de Leeuw recording on erstwhile Philips.
The DG Complete Edition has Bernstein's recording of the Mass. But it has de Leeuw's recording of Cantata and some of the short choral works.
Quote from: Herman on February 20, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
One Stravinsky work that isn't in the above Universal box is the 1944-48 Mass, the work I have been listening to after weeks of listening to Oedipus Rex.
The Mass is for SABT choir (Stravinksy wanted a bunch of boys for the soprano part) and double wind quartet.
It's very spare and very lovely. The composer wanted no vibrato in the choir, which was hard to get by first.
I have a couple recordings and the one that works best for me is the Reinbert de Leeuw recording on erstwhile Philips.
Yes, this is one of my favorites from Stravinsky. I really love that Leeuw performance as well. I also love the O'Donnell on Hyperion, which I believe is OOP now.
I'm still enjoying my Stravinsky Loop.
Currently repeat listening to what may well be Stravinsky's most hilarious piece, Jeu de Cartes.
Imagine being the trombone section in this piece.
Nice.
Quote from: Herman on February 20, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
One Stravinsky work that isn't in the above Universal box is the 1944-48 Mass, the work I have been listening to after weeks of listening to Oedipus Rex.
The Mass is for SABT choir (Stravinksy wanted a bunch of boys for the soprano part) and double wind quartet.
It's very spare and very lovely. The composer wanted no vibrato in the choir, which was hard to get by first.
I have a couple recordings and the one that works best for me is the Reinbert de Leeuw recording on erstwhile Philips.
I like this one you mention, which I am listening to right now for the first time.
For a long time the
Bernstein recording was the one I was most familiar with, but I also really like the
Herreweghe recording, as well as the
Robert Craft one on Naxos. The first version I heard was of
Stravinsky's own, which still holds a sentimental place in my heart.
https://www.youtube.com/v/DqWZGUO_eoc
This was one of those occasions where I rediscovered a masterpiece. I don't know why I had overlooked this stupendous piece for so long. I was hooked by this captivating performance. A work with gravitas, austerity and noticeable craftsmanship.
The no inclusion of violins and violas provides a darker tone to the sometimes lugubrious and sometimes imposing music. An orchestration who nobody else could create. It shows a facet of the originality of this composer. Despite the composer employed Latin texts, the chorus sometimes sounded like singing Orthodox Russian chants, a very interesting effect.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 31, 2020, 03:45:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/DqWZGUO_eoc
This was one of those occasions where I rediscovered a masterpiece. I don't know why I had overlooked this stupendous piece for so long. I was hooked by this captivating performance. A work with gravitas, austerity and noticeable craftsmanship.
The no inclusion of violins and violas provides a darker tone to the sometimes lugubrious and sometimes imposing music. An orchestration who nobody else could create. It shows a facet of the originality of this composer. Despite the composer employed Latin texts, the chorus sometimes sounded like singing Orthodox Russian chants, a very interesting effect.
esp. mvt III
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 31, 2020, 03:45:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/DqWZGUO_eoc
This was one of those occasions where I rediscovered a masterpiece. I don't know why I had overlooked this stupendous piece for so long. I was hooked by this captivating performance. A work with gravitas, austerity and noticeable craftsmanship.
The no inclusion of violins and violas provides a darker tone to the sometimes lugubrious and sometimes imposing music. An orchestration who nobody else could create. It shows a facet of the originality of this composer. Despite the composer employed Latin texts, the chorus sometimes sounded like singing Orthodox Russian chants, a very interesting effect.
I re-listened to this work recently as well and couldn't agree more. A masterpiece. I'm often quick to write off a lot of Stravinsky's post-
Rite music, but the
Symphony of Pslams has none of the "dryness" that occasionally creeps into the other works from his "neoclassical" period.
What recording did you hear, Kyle?
Quote from: kyjo on August 31, 2020, 07:38:53 PM
I'm often quick to write off a lot of Stravinsky's post-Rite music ...
??? :o :-X
I am just the opposite:
Le Sacre and those works before is the music I DON'T listen to by Stravinsky. The
Symphony of Psalms and most of his "Neo-Classical" period, as well as his late works, make up my Stravinsky playlist.
8)
Same here. I hardly ever listen to his 'Russian' works, like Firebird and Sacre.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2020, 11:55:52 AM
What recording did you hear, Kyle?
A recent live performance by MTT and the San Francisco Symphony which is available on Spotify.
I also revisited the Symphony in Three Movements a few days ago and enjoyed it very much. It's filled with nervous energy but doesn't lack more lyrical, reflective moments. Not to mention I really enjoyed the delightful
Jeu de cartes recently as well. I think I like the neoclassical Stravinsky more than I often give him credit for. 8)
Can someone explain to me this comment of Richard Barrett's, in his book
Music of Possibility (2019)?
QuoteA defining feature of 20th century musical innovation is the disconnection from one another of elements which had in previous music always always proceeded in parallel, like metre and harmony in Stravinsky's Le Sacre Du Printemps . . . .
I'd like to extend an apology to Rafael and anyone else who I doubted about the Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky series on Columbia (Sony). I think it is quite special and there's certainly the sense of occasion with these performances, but it does help that they're as well performed as they are. I owned several iterations of this series. The first one I bought was this one (released in 2007):
(https://img.discogs.com/BS2IFB8xUBjFo90jCQtNW0MdzSU=/fit-in/600x606/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1852348-1247863068.jpeg.jpg)
Then I bought the even earlier one from the early 90s:
(https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2018/5/28/1/d/4/1d4d6c65-c104-497e-ac2e-05a4fd77b996.jpg)
Then I finally wound up buying this one back in 2017:
(https://img.discogs.com/A_-fhfYuqCd6LFoQVicbOzKTclw=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8582760-1500043168-5413.jpeg.jpg)
I wound up giving both of the earlier sets away. I can't remember who I gave the 2007 set to, but the early 90s set I gave to my dad as he didn't own any Stravinsky in his own collection. I'm rather pleased with the fidelity in this newer set plus it contains some rarities like that Robert Craft recording where conducts the first version of Les noces, but also this particular has never been released before on CD. Anyway, I'll quite blabbering now. :)
Is the cardboard box shown in second place all the separate "fat" volumes with comparably fat booklets?
I got 5 volumes (11 discs altogether) of that one and also a single discs with the 3 famous symphonies. Although the cheaper box shown in the first place was already available when I bought most of these, I decided to go for the ones with better documentation. Because for the vocal works and some other lesser known works, I'd be a bit lost with a bare bones edition. (And because I already have enough "rites" I also skipped the first volume with the famous balletts).
Spotted on jpc.de and Amazon.de, expected to be realeased March 2021, haven't seen any details of the content:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71nxTTdsNOL._SX425_.jpg)
Q
Quote from: Jo498 on December 05, 2020, 12:51:38 AM
Is the cardboard box shown in second place all the separate "fat" volumes with comparably fat booklets?
I got 5 volumes (11 discs altogether) of that one and also a single discs with the 3 famous symphonies. Although the cheaper box shown in the first place was already available when I bought most of these, I decided to go for the ones with better documentation. Because for the vocal works and some other lesser known works, I'd be a bit lost with a bare bones edition. (And because I already have enough "rites" I also skipped the first volume with the famous balletts).
Yes, that is right. The white box houses all of these chubby (or fat) boxes, but this set has it's own larger booklet as well. Basically, all of these single issued sets are housed in a hard plastic container that slips into the white cardboard box. It's an attractive looking set, because as you rightfully pointed out, each set has it's own documentation. But I'm rather content with
The Complete Columbia Album Collection. The documentation isn't as extensive as the early 90s set, but the rarities you get with this set make it worthwhile and the sound quality sounds improved, but I haven't done any side-by-side comparisons to give an extensive opinion on this.
Quote from: Que on December 05, 2020, 12:54:52 AM
Spotted on jpc.de and Amazon.de, expected to be realeased March 2021, haven't seen any details of the content:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71nxTTdsNOL._SX425_.jpg)
Q
Oh, this looks interesting. It'll be interesting to see the contents and what Warner has in their catalog, which, of course, now they can source recordings from EMI, Erato, Virgin Classics, etc. I'll have to investigate this set further. Thanks for pointing it out, Que.
Edit: Upon further investigation into the Stravinsky catalogs of EMI, Virgin Classics, Teldec, Erato, etc., it's going to be interesting to see what they'll have to actually license from other labels like DG, Decca, Sony, Alpha, Naxos, etc. It doesn't look like they have as extensive of a catalog on this composer as I initially thought. I
might consider it, but I already own the Sony and DG boxes and the Robert Craft Naxos series plus so many single issued recordings on a variety of labels.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2020, 07:54:40 PM
I'd like to extend an apology to Rafael and anyone else who I doubted about the Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky series on Columbia (Sony)...
I don't remember us disagreeing about this set,
John, but apologies accepted ;)
The most recent iteration, the "Complete Columbia Album Collection", is a beautiful set on all accounts IMHO. As a testament to the output of a great, great,
great composer, and to the enterprising project undertaken by Columbia to preserve his performances, it is priceless. Granted, some (many?) of the individual performances have been surpassed since, and some verge on the disastrous (e.g. the mono
Pulcinella—complete ballet—with the Cleveland Orchestra), but overall this is a wonderful set, and it holds pride of place in my collection (and I keep the cheapo 2007 set in my office for the eventual
Stravinsky craving that might appear while I'm at work).
Let's see what that Warner box will include. Deutsche Grammophon will also be releasing "The 'New' Stravinsky Complete Edition" in March. I can't be bothered to compare the contents to that of the "old" edition (which has been in my collection since it was released, and isn't
that old in any case), but they've added a bonus disc with
Riccardo Chailly's recording of the
Chant funèbre, a work that resurfaced only shortly after Universal released the box.
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948399628.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on December 05, 2020, 07:27:09 AM
I don't remember us disagreeing about this set, John, but apologies accepted ;)
The most recent iteration, the "Complete Columbia Album Collection", is a beautiful set on all accounts IMHO. As a testament to the output of a great, great, great composer, and to the enterprising project undertaken by Columbia to preserve his performances, it is priceless. Granted, some (many?) of the individual performances have been surpassed since, and some verge on the disastrous (e.g. the mono Pulcinella—complete ballet—with the Cleveland Orchestra), but overall this is a wonderful set, and it holds pride of place in my collection (and I keep the cheapo 2007 set in my office for the eventual Stravinsky craving that might appear while I'm at work).
Let's see what that Warner box will include. Deutsche Grammophon will also be releasing "The 'New' Stravinsky Complete Edition" in March. I can't be bothered to compare the contents to that of the "old" edition (which has been in my collection since it was released, and isn't that old in any case), but they've added a bonus disc with Riccardo Chailly's recording of the Chant funèbre, a work that resurfaced only shortly after Universal released the box.
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948399628.jpg)
It's great to read that this Stravinsky Sony set means this much to you. I think it's a remarkable achievement by all involved. I'm definitely
not interested in that reissued DG box considering that I doubt it could be approved upon, although I don't think much of Boulez's
Le sacre or
L'Oiseau de feu, which I believe are included in the DG
Complete set. I just realized
why next year is so important and why we're going to be seeing a flood of new box sets and individual issues --- it's the fiftieth anniversary of Stravinsky's passing. Remarkably next year will mark the fiftieth wedding anniversary of my parents, so two special occasions in one year for me. Anyway, I never got around to buying that Chailly disc of
Chant funèbre. I should see if it's still available. I might buy a hi-res download of just this work instead of shelling out $15 for the physical recording.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71nxTTdsNOL._SX425_.jpg)
I do also wonder if this newer Warner set coming out in March will be like their Debussy, Berlioz and Ravel box sets. I hope so as I do like the overall design much better than some kind of box that has a lid on it (w/ the CDs in sleeves within). I hope they do something special with this set. After all, Stravinsky is one of the most important composers of all-time, so why not give him this kind of treatment?
This is an entertaining video. Most of the information Stravinsky fans will know already, but it's a fun watch:
https://www.youtube.com/v/xIAtoxbt7LQ
Inspired by this album which John posted in the WAYLTN thread ... a semi-random list of favorite short Stravinsky pieces.
Cat's Cradle Songs
Four Russian Peasant Songs ('Saucers')
Rag-time for 11 instruments
Tango
Scherzo à la russe
Elegy for viola solo
Dirge-Song & Canons in memoriam Dylan Thomas
Elegy for JFK
Greeting Prelude
The Owl and the Pussycat
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 07, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Inspired by this album which John posted in the WAYLTN thread ... a semi-random list of favorite short Stravinsky pieces.
Cat's Cradle Songs
Four Russian Peasant Songs ('Saucers')
Rag-time for 11 instruments
Tango
Scherzo à la russe
Elegy for viola solo
Dirge-Song & Canons in memoriam Dylan Thomas
Elegy for JFK
Greeting Prelude
The Owl and the Pussycat
Very cool, Karl. The small text is not needed for
Greeting Prelude, my friend --- I love it, too. All 54 seconds of it. :) Love those other works you mentioned as well. I have always felt the late works don't get the love they deserve and are somehow overlooked. His middle Neoclassical period seems to be overlooked by many listeners as well for reasons I haven't been able to understand.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2020, 04:49:30 PM
Very cool, Karl. The small text is not needed for Greeting Prelude, my friend --- I love it, too. All 54 seconds of it. :) Love those other works you mentioned as well. I have always felt the late works don't get the love they deserve and are somehow overlooked. His middle Neoclassical period seems to be overlooked by many listeners as well for reasons I haven't been able to understand.
Oh, the tiny text was a glitch!
Alright...so two big Stravinsky boxes have finally been released:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71QX9kOQhpL._AC_SL1240_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81qR2kIdP0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
This Chailly set will be coming out in late April:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81-i%2BkuTtiL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)
I pre-ordered the Stravinsky set on Warner as soon as I heard about it since I don't own a lot from the Warner catalog and, keep in mind, that this set is not complete by any means. The Deutsche Grammophon Complete set is merely an updated version of the set that was released by them in 2015, which I snapped up for a great price via Amazon Spain (if I'm not mistaken). For those that missed this DG set the first-time around, jump on this! It's a fantastic set. The Chailly set looks interesting and even though I already own four recordings from it, I'll still more than likely buy it for the performances that I don't own. This is a good year to be Stravinsky fan. Looking forward to seeing what other releases come our way in this 50th anniversary year.
Très intéressant!
I'm sure I can't be the only one breaking out the Rite in light of springtime coming a bit early (here, anyway; I hope other members are sharing in the beautiful weather)... This recording for me:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71MI4ec-%2B-L._SL500_.jpg)
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 13, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
I'm sure I can't be the only one breaking out the Rite in light of springtime coming a bit early (here, anyway; I hope other members are sharing in the beautiful weather)... This recording for me:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71MI4ec-%2B-L._SL500_.jpg)
I never really listen to music based on the time of year it is unless it's Christmas. I've been known to listen to Sibelius in August and listen to Ginastera in January. ;)
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 13, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
I'm sure I can't be the only one breaking out the Rite in light of springtime coming a bit early (here, anyway; I hope other members are sharing in the beautiful weather)... This recording for me:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71MI4ec-%2B-L._SL500_.jpg)
Bien sûr!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2021, 08:24:30 AM
No great surprise, with the warming weather, I've now listened to this disc three times in two days:
Stravinsky
Le sacre du printemps (1947 version)
L'oiseau de feu (1919 version)
Jeu de cartes
LSO
Abbado
When I was in the music program at the College of Wooster, hearing the Rite for the first time (I hadn't yet seen Fantasia, for instance) changed my musical life forever and made permanent imprint on my compositional sensibility. For no particular reason, I return to it relatively seldom, but it is evergreen for me. A great, Protean piece for which my ardor never cools.
Before I was graduated from "Woo," I heard the Clevelanders play it live in Severance Hall I still remember climbing up to the "nosebleed seats." What a great night that was!
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 13, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
I'm sure I can't be the only one breaking out the Rite in light of springtime coming a bit early (here, anyway; I hope other members are sharing in the beautiful weather)... This recording for me:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71MI4ec-%2B-L._SL500_.jpg)
The Rite is probably the work by Stravinsky I listen to most - and I never tire of its endless invention. A new version today though. I mentioned on another thread I've been rediscovering just how good Stanislaw Skrowaczewski's Vox recordings in Minnesota were. And his Rite proves this again. Tricky to get hold of a copy at a reasonable price in the UK but this is the one I found;
(https://img.discogs.com/qFLI7TMyINQFW403NpCY5rSYXq8=/fit-in/600x526/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-14917171-1584041123-2278.jpeg.jpg)
I really enjoyed this version - driving tempi, quite brutal (but well played). Certainly a very exciting version. I'll have to see if I can track down his Petrushka and Firebird now.....
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 15, 2021, 08:47:33 AM
The Rite is probably the work by Stravinsky I listen to most - and I never tire of its endless invention. A new version today though. I mentioned on another thread I've been rediscovering just how good Stanislaw Skrowaczewski's Vox recordings in Minnesota were. And his Rite proves this again. Tricky to get hold of a copy at a reasonable price in the UK but this is the one I found;
(https://img.discogs.com/qFLI7TMyINQFW403NpCY5rSYXq8=/fit-in/600x526/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-14917171-1584041123-2278.jpeg.jpg)
I really enjoyed this version - driving tempi, quite brutal (but well played). Certainly a very exciting version. I'll have to see if I can track down his Petrushka and Firebird now.....
No love for the Neoclassical or Serialist Periods? :-\
I don't listen to early Stravinsky too often (i. e. the three early ballets), but I do think the more obscure or simply neglected works from his Russian Period are certainly worth hearing. The problem I have with the three early ballets isn't the music itself obviously as they are works of brilliance, but of the overexposure these works have been subjected to. I love Le sacre, but I think there is plenty of the same kind of inventiveness in Orpheus or Agon for example and it would be nice to see more listeners, record labels, conductors, etc. get beyond the early Stravinsky works more often.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 15, 2021, 09:02:17 AM
I don't listen to early Stravinsky too often (i. e. the three early ballets), but I do think the more obscure or simply neglected works from his Russian Period are certainly worth hearing. The problem I have with the three early ballets isn't the music itself obviously as they are works of brilliance, but of the overexposure these works have been subjected to. I love Le sacre, but I think there is plenty of the same kind of inventiveness in Orpheus or Agon for example and it would be nice to see more listeners, record labels, conductors, etc. get beyond the early Stravinsky works more often.
I've played most of the Stravinsky ballets in the pit and the two I enjoyed playing most were Rite and Pulcinella and they happen to be the two I listen to still most for pleasure as well. Oh and Fairy's Kiss as well
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 15, 2021, 09:12:01 AM
I've played most of the Stravinsky ballets in the pit and the two I enjoyed playing most were Rite and Pulcinella and they happen to be the two I listen to still most for pleasure as well. Oh and Fairy's Kiss as well
Nice!
I guess I just don't pay any attention to which period of Stravinsky that I am listening to.
I have works that I absolutely love, some that I like, some I am indifferent to and some I just don't like. I can't tell which period they really are in other than the big three ballets, to be honest.
If there is a categorical like/dislike that fits more less tidily for me, it is this:
Instrumental works, yes. Works with vocal, no,but yes to Symphony of Psalms.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 15, 2021, 09:12:01 AM
I've played most of the Stravinsky ballets in the pit and the two I enjoyed playing most were Rite and Pulcinella and they happen to be the two I listen to still most for pleasure as well. Oh and Fairy's Kiss as well
Pulcinella and
Le Baiser de la fée are so delightful and contain some rather gorgeous music.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 15, 2021, 09:36:42 AM
I guess I just don't pay any attention to which period of Stravinsky that I am listening to.
I have works that I absolutely love, some that I like, some I am indifferent to and some I just don't like. I can't tell which period they really are in other than the big three ballets, to be honest.
If there is a categorical like/dislike that fits more less tidily for me, it is this:
Instrumental works, yes. Works with vocal, no,but yes to Symphony of Psalms.
No love for the
Mass, eh?
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 15, 2021, 09:58:03 AM
No love for the Mass, eh?
I can honestly say that I don't remember my impressions of the Mass, and it would have been years since I listened to it. Time for a revisiting.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 15, 2021, 10:28:14 AM
I can honestly say that I don't remember my impressions of the Mass, and it would have been years since I listened to it. Time for a revisiting.
I think you'll enjoy it, Ray. It's quite beautiful.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 15, 2021, 10:28:14 AM
I can honestly say that I don't remember my impressions of the Mass, and it would have been years since I listened to it. Time for a revisiting.
Tu n'aimes pas les Berceuses du chat? Est-ce possible?https://www.youtube.com/v/rizNduvJXfo
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2021, 10:41:28 AM
Tu n'aimes pas les Berceuses du chat? Est-ce possible?
https://www.youtube.com/v/rizNduvJXfo
If it's some sort of song or lieder, the answer is likely no. :D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2021, 10:41:28 AM
Tu n'aimes pas les Berceuses du chat? Est-ce possible?
https://www.youtube.com/v/rizNduvJXfo
That's a cool little piece and even though it was written in the 1910s --- it has an almost Webernian austerity to it with the silences between the notes.
It's time for another...
Compositional Spotlight
(https://www.clker.com/cliparts/F/i/L/D/g/L/spotlight1-md.png)
Orpheus
(https://i0.wp.com/www.the-american-interest.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Jean-Baptiste-Camille_Corot_-_Orpheus_Leading_Eurydice_from_the_Underworld_-_Google_Art_Project-crop.jpg?fit=1200%2C781&ssl=1)
A little background to the work:
Stravinsky's neo-Classical works turn to ancient Greek myth almost as often as they call upon musical styles from earlier centuries. It was perhaps inevitable that he would at some point adopt the tale of Orpheus, which had inspired so many important works from the Renaissance on, as the basis of one of his own compositions. Stravinsky wrote his Orpheus (1947), a ballet, while studying the music of Claudio Monteverdi. The influence of Monteverdi, composer of the first great opera based on the Orpheus myth, is indeed evident in Stravinsky's work. Still, as he always did in his neo-Classical music, Stravinsky integrated his disparate influences into his own artistic personality to produce something wholly original.
Orpheus was composed in collaboration with the choreographer George Balanchine. The two men synchronized their thoughts on music and action precisely, and when the score was complete and choreography began, Stravinsky attended rehearsals to ensure that their original vision would remain intact. Balanchine's Ballet Society premiered Orpheus in New York on April 28, 1948.
Opportunities for melodrama abound in the Orpheus myth; however, much in the manner of Monteverdi's treatement, Stravinsky's Orpheus is distinguished by nobility and restraint. The dynamic level rarely rises above mezzo-piano, and the tempi are similarly moderated. This restraint was partly dictated by the instrumentation; having assigned the role of Orpheus to the harp, Stravinsky carefully ensured that the instrument's delicate sonorities would not be overwhelmed in the texture; even the whooping string chords in the dance of the Furies are palpably tempered. At the same time, the establishment of this slow, soft atmosphere allows Stravinsky to rip the musical fabric to great effect. After a song to tame tormented souls, which has the echoes of a Bach siciliana, Hades relents and allows Eurydice and Orpheus to exit the underworld, accompanied by noble, eloquent string polyphony. A short, sharp crescendo jolts the listener to attention and is followed by a bar of silence, during which Orpheus unbinds his eyes and Eurydice falls dead. Ominous sounds from the strings lead up to the only truly fast and loud music in the score, which accompanies the dismemberment of Orpheus by the Bacchantes. This passage recalls the composer's Rite of Spring in its brutally shaped rhythms, stabbing accented chords, and cruel, off-center downbeats. The closing music, which depicts Apollo raising Orpheus' song heavenward, is reminiscent of the opening, lending an odd sense of peace to the work as it draws to a close.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
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Orpheus (1947)
Ballet in three scenes
Duration: 30'
Scoring
2.picc.2(II=corA).2.2-4.2.2.0-timp-harp-strings
Abbreviations (PDF)
Publisher
Boosey & Hawkes
Territory
This work is available from Boosey & Hawkes for the world.
Repertoire Note
The translucent scoring and evanescent lyricism of this ballet – a cousin to Apollo (who appears at the close to "raise heavenward Orpheus' song") – confer a distinctive beauty. Even the Furies are spectral and restrained. Orpheus's pleading lyre is memorably translated as a solo harp. Stravinsky's retelling of the famous myth connects to a rarefied lineage of musical incarnations also including the Orpheus operas of Monteverdi and Gluck – and (a possible companion piece) Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto, in which the solo piano, pleading for Eurydice, pacifies the angry string choir of the second movement.
Repertoire note by Joseph Horowitz
In 1946, in the wake of the Second World War, Stravinsky and Balanchine, now both resident in the USA, turned to Apollo's son Orpheus for their next balletic collaboration. It is the lamenting Orpheus who is encountered at the start of this ballet, almost as if picking up the melancholic mood left suspended two decades earlier at the end of their Apollo. 'Orpheus weeps for Eurydice. He stands motionless, with his back to the audience.' We hear his lyre at the beginning and end of the score, represented by the sounds of the harp, playing falling lines of lament. It is as if Stravinsky is speaking personally here, lamenting the death of his daughter and first wife as well his mother just before he left for America. Balanchine and Stravinsky worked side-by-side on the scenario. Music and choreography emerged simultaneously. The scenario starts with Orpheus weeping at Eurydice's funeral and ends with an apotheosis where Apollo appears, 'wrests the lyre from Orpheus and raises his son heavenwards'. The music throughout is restrained, distanced, formal, with a predilection for counterpoint. The designer chosen for the premiere production was Isamu Noguchi, a sculptor whose abstract geometric sets, costumes and masks perfectly matched the distilled, ritualistic purity of Stravinsky's music and Balanchine's dances. Orpheus can be paired effectively in concert performances with other of Stravinsky's works on classical themes.
Repertoire note by Jonathan Cross
[Information taken from the Boosey & Hawkes website]
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Orpheus was the brain-child of Lincoln Kirstein, who specifically wanted a companion-piece for Apollo to grace the second season of his new venture, Ballet Society. Stravinsky was not normally responsive to being told what sort of music he should write; but he trusted Balanchine, whose idea the Orpheus story was, and he enjoyed working with a choreographer who seemed to understand his music and whose native language was Russian. For the first time they worked closely together from the start, deciding on the details of the scenario ('with Ovid and a classical dictionary in hand', the composer later recalled), and agreeing on the essential tone, which would treat the well-known subject as little more than a pretext for a kind of formal/musical/spatial geometry, endowed with significance by the merest framework of narrative. For the first performance, at New York's City Center in April 1948, the designs were done by Isamu Noguchi, who was known mainly as a sculptor. So the plastic qualities of the work were emphasized in every dimension, and its narrative elements correspondingly downplayed.
Stravinsky's score, though routinely included among his neoclassical works, is in many ways quite unlike anything that precedes it. During the war, in America (of which he became a citizen in 1945), he had fulfilled a string of more or less openly commercial commissions, while working quietly on two eventual masterpieces—the Symphony in three movements and the Mass—which he found for a long time hard to crystallize in his mind, perhaps for lack of any likely performance. The uncertainties of war seem to have drawn him back to the church, and also to his Russian inheritance. And at some point he became intrigued by medieval music, especially the Ars Nova of the fourteenth century, with its decorative lines and intricate polyphonic techniques.
All these influences left their mark, however obliquely, on Orpheus, while to some extent directing it towards the more esoteric aspects of the next and final phase of his music. Orpheus is not in any sense a serial work; but it does hint at a new austerity and intensity that might suggest a breaking away from the more mechanical aspects of neoclassicism. Compared with the brusque, almost hearty opening of Jeu de cartes, the introduction of Orpheus has a repressed, secretive quality. Orpheus weeps for Eurydice, the stage direction informs us, but with his back to the audience, standing motionless. Later, as the Angel of Death leads him into Hades, the Furies protest, it seems, mainly in undertones (and soon submit to the beauty of Orpheus' playing). Then, at the crucial moment when Orpheus tears the bandage from his eyes and looks back at Eurydice, who at once falls dead, the music responds with a bar of complete silence. Even the Pas d'action in which the Bacchantes tear Orpheus to pieces is truly violent only for a few bars, which must have seemed a very strange turn of style for the composer of The Rite of Spring.
From notes by Stephen Walsh © 2009
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I thought I would do a monthly 'Compositional Spotlight' for one of Stravinsky's works. For this month, since I have become rather obsessed with Orpheus over the past few weeks or so, I thought this might be a good work to discuss. I have always thought highly of this ballet and what is remarkable is just how different it sounds from the other Greek-inspired ballets: Apollon musagète and Agon. A lot of the music in Orpheus is subdued and almost has a mediative-like quality to it, but there is a mean streak to found here and it's the dismemberment of Orpheus from the maenads. This particular section comes as a shock given the relatively melodic nature of the music. What do you guys think of this ballet? Any favorite recordings? To be honest, I haven't heard a bad recording of it and I own six: Salonen, Orpheus Chamber Orch. (no conductor of course), Craft, Järvi, Volkov and Stravinsky's own recording. Make that seven as I just bought the Colin Davis recording on Philips. ;)
Nice, thanks!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Nice, thanks!
8) I'd love to know your thoughts on
Orpheus, Karl.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 15, 2021, 04:11:27 PM
8) I'd love to know your thoughts on Orpheus, Karl.
Will marshal them.
I will also add to my previous comments that Orpheus has one of the most exquisitely beautiful introductions in all of 20th Century ballet. It actually shows Stravinsky with his 'guard down' so to speak. Those harp figurations with those soft and swelled chords from the strings really seduces the listener or, at least, this listener.
In a bit of a surprise, last August Joe Parrish (drummer for Jethro Tull) arranged and recorded The Rite of Spring for multitracked electric guitars. He has done a masterful job of capturing the work's textures and moods, including the quieter moments. At least one friend called The Rite "the original metal," which might explain why the arrangement works so well.
From the comments, this one made me chuckle: "As a bassoonist, it is my job to tell you: holy shit well done."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFG70gFbvOg
--Bruce
Never heard Orpheus before and looks like I don't have it on CD. Will check it out on youtube. Stravinsky is still one of the problematic composers for me. I have yet to find a piece of his music which I would really like.
Quote from: Artem on March 16, 2021, 06:14:05 AM
Never heard Orpheus before and looks like I don't have it on CD. Will check it out on youtube. Stravinsky is still one of the problematic composers for me. I have yet to find a piece of his music which I would really like.
Out of curiosity, what do you find so problematic about Stravinsky? Could you be more specific?
It is the intense rythm that puts me off.
Quote from: Artem on March 16, 2021, 06:33:26 AM
It is the intense rythm that puts me off.
Intense rhythm, eh? Well, there's no question that Stravinsky was quite a rhythmically-minded composer, but this is what I love about him. As a former percussionist (and a lousy one at that), this is one of the main characteristics of his music that I was attracted to or, at least, it's what pulled me in first it seems. Of course, not
all of his music is as rhythmically-driven as say
Le sacre for example. Give a listen to his works from his Neoclassical and Serialist Periods. But don't forget that Stravinsky had a unique approach to harmony and melody as well and not to mention color/texture that was quite singular.
I will definitely continue investigation of his works.
Quote from: Artem on March 16, 2021, 06:48:58 AM
I will definitely continue investigation of his works.
Please do. He's not one of the greatest 20th Century composers for no reason.
I also want to add that one of the attractions I have to Stravinsky's music besides the afore mentioned harmony, rhythm, color, etc. is the way his music can turnaround and surprise you as the piece progresses. It's those ingenious turn-of-phrases that give his music a distinctiveness unlike any other composer I've heard.
Quote from: Artem on March 16, 2021, 06:33:26 AM
It is the intense rythm that puts me off.
My guess is that you may well take to
Orpheus.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 16, 2021, 09:58:14 AM
My guess is that you may well take to Orpheus.
Apollon musagète and
Le Baiser de la fée would also fit the bill here.
Today, we commemorate the death of
Igor Fyodorovich Stravinsky 50 years ago, on April 6th, 1971 in New York City, aged 89. One of the truly great composers of all time.
Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread:
Quote from: ritter on April 06, 2021, 12:55:49 AM
Commemorating the 50th anniversary of Igor Stravinsky's death:
(https://img.discogs.com/AyWsmXLUnIL6a34WsJtPETM57As=/fit-in/556x572/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3318211-1327159352.jpeg.jpg)
This is the composer's first (mono) recording of The Fairy's Kiss (complete ballet), with the Cleveland Orchestra.
From this set (one of the great achievements of the gramophone):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81b-VVHXFyL._SL1500_.jpg)
In memory of Igor Stravinsky, I am listening to the newly arrived (in my home) Monteux and Boston Symphony Orchestra 1959 performance of Petruska.
A marvelous work that has long been my favourite of Stravinsky, and what a marvelous performance this is! :o
Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 06, 2021, 11:05:38 AM
In memory of Igor Stravinsky, I am listening to the newly arrived (in my home) Monteux and Boston Symphony Orchestra 1959 performance of Petruska.
A marvelous work that has long been my favourite of Stravinsky, and what a marvelous performance this is! :o
That's a great one. (Said as a fan of Monteux in general.)
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on April 06, 2021, 11:13:09 AM
That's a great one. (Said as a fan of Monteux in general.)
--Bruce
I got that disc because of the Franck symphony but the Petruska performance is astounding.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 06, 2021, 11:21:34 AM
I got that disc because of the Franck symphony but the Petruska performance is astounding.
Hehehe, can't but agree. My experience was the reverse: got it for the Stravinsky, and pleasantly surprised by the Franck.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on April 06, 2021, 11:26:39 AM
Hehehe, can't but agree. My experience was the reverse: got it for the Stravinsky, and pleasantly surprised by the Franck.
--Bruce
:laugh:
Well, there you go Bruce! Seems like a win-win for fans of either works or both.
My ears thank you for the head's-up on this set, Rafael! And, what is this stimulus money for, anyway?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 06, 2021, 11:33:04 AM
My ears thank you for the head's-up on this set, Rafael! And, what is this stimulus money for, anyway?
You are welcome,
Karl. I insist, one of the glories of the gramophone! Worth every penny. :)
Quote from: ritter on April 06, 2021, 11:43:55 AM
You are welcome, Karl. I insist, one of the glories of the gramophone! Worth every penny. :)
I have full confidence.
Yesterday as part of my lockdown mission to explore recordings I own but do not know well if at all I listened to this one;
(https://img.discogs.com/59shr7wFT6iQz_-rPzTbvak3zIk=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6654716-1423955088-8378.jpeg.jpg)
I've never heard the Canticum Sacrum/Requiem Canticles/Chorale Variations before but I have to say I enjoyed this a lot - both the works and these performances. Obviously I no frame of reference for either. My memory is that these Jarvi/Stravinsky recordings with the Suisse Romande were received with luke-warm reviews back when-ever. How do people who know think these measure up? I have to say I thought the "Rite" here pretty good. Well played and well recorded - perhaps lacking the ritualised barbarity I think the work does need but Jarvi makes a couple of interesting/unusual choices and I was certainly happy to hear them - the acceleration through the 11 hammer strokes into the "Naming and honouring of the Chosen One" I thought rather effective.......
Anyway - I need to revisit other recordings from this set
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/954/MI0000954809.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
which was a bargain purchase I recall and good value with Chandos having recoupled 6 original releases onto 5 discs
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 12, 2021, 11:23:21 PM
Yesterday as part of my lockdown mission to explore recordings I own but do not know well if at all I listened to this one;
(https://img.discogs.com/59shr7wFT6iQz_-rPzTbvak3zIk=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6654716-1423955088-8378.jpeg.jpg)
I've never heard the Canticum Sacrum/Requiem Canticles/Chorale Variations before but I have to say I enjoyed this a lot - both the works and these performances. Obviously I no frame of reference for either. My memory is that these Jarvi/Stravinsky recordings with the Suisse Romande were received with luke-warm reviews back when-ever. How do people who know think these measure up? I have to say I thought the "Rite" here pretty good. Well played and well recorded - perhaps lacking the ritualised barbarity I think the work does need but Jarvi makes a couple of interesting/unusual choices and I was certainly happy to hear them - the acceleration through the 11 hammer strokes into the "Naming and honouring of the Chosen One" I thought rather effective.......
Anyway - I need to revisit other recordings from this set
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/954/MI0000954809.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
which was a bargain purchase I recall and good value with Chandos having recoupled 6 original releases onto 5 discs
I own a few Stravinsky Järvi recordings and, to be honest, it's like oil and water. The two just don't go together. It's been so long since I've listened to any of his Stravinsky, but I get the impression that his performances of the earlier works are better than the middle and late period works. He doesn't do 'cool detachment' really well and especially in the Neoclassical works, you have to be careful and not let things get heated up to the point where emotion is more important than allowing the clean lines to come through unfettered. So, no, I never thought of him as a good Stravinskian.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 13, 2021, 06:44:05 AM
I own a few Stravinsky Järvi recordings and, to be honest, it's like oil and water. The two just don't go together. It's been so long since I've listened to any of his Stravinsky, but I get the impression that his performances of the earlier works are better than the middle and late period works. He doesn't do 'cool detachment' really well and especially in the Neoclassical works, you have to be careful and not let things get heated up to the point where emotion is more important than allowing the clean lines to come through unfettered. So, no, I never thought of him as a good Stravinskian.
I can absolutely see where you are coming from - so which would be your prefered versions of the choral works on the disc I listened to?
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 13, 2021, 09:05:26 AM
I can absolutely see where you are coming from - so which would be your prefered versions of the choral works on the disc I listened to?
Stravinsky's own performances are always great listens. For the
Canticum Sacrum, this O'Donnell performance on Hyperion is still a favorite:
(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571164373.png)
For the
Requiem Canticles, this newer recording with Herreweghe is superb:
(https://albumart.primephonic.com/s900/5400439000209.jpg)
It feels like a luxury to have so many good versions of Apollon Musagète available. This one, from February 9, 2018, is with the Netherlands Chamber Orchestra, and beautifully filmed in black and white.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etHH74FA7Ns
--Bruce
As my appetite was whetted by the images Rafael was posting on the Stravinsky anniversary, this looked too good not to fetch in. It has landed, in all its magnificence
Before wading into it, though, I am making my way again through the Sony box. There must be some redundancy, but I haven't decided if I care
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 13, 2021, 06:44:05 AM
I own a few Stravinsky Järvi recordings and, to be honest, it's like oil and water. The two just don't go together. It's been so long since I've listened to any of his Stravinsky, but I get the impression that his performances of the earlier works are better than the middle and late period works. He doesn't do 'cool detachment' really well and especially in the Neoclassical works, you have to be careful and not let things get heated up to the point where emotion is more important than allowing the clean lines to come through unfettered. So, no, I never thought of him as a good Stravinskian.
I've been thinking more about your "oil and water" remark. Not specifically regarding Jarvi/Stravinsky or these particular works since, as I said I don't know them except through this disc. But I think I disagree with the basic premise of your comment. If I interpret you correctly, it seems that you feel the only or at least preferable approach to neo-classicism is "cool detachment". While I'd agree that is a legitimate/prevalent approach I do not think it should be the only way. To my mind that risks too neatly compartmentalising a musical genre/style. Surely there will always being multiple ways of approaching any piece and for me part of the interest is where the genre boundaries blur.
So if you take neo-classicism I like the way that very different composers arrived at that common ground - whether Zemlinsky from his Post-Romantic standpoint, Roussel from Impressionism or Stravinsky himself. But surely each also brings a legacy of their earlier style too? If that is the case, an interpreter can legitimately bring out that legacy so
perhaps Jarvi can rightly point to elements in Stravinsky's earlier music that 'allows' his emotional approach in these later works too...? Of course there is a counter argument that Stravinsky was a master at reinventing himself as a composer almost as a lizard will shed a skin....
Anyway, it gave me an interesting cause to reflect on this thought.......
MI's post seems to indicate that he is specifically describing Stravinsky's neoclassical works as sounding cool and detached not neoclassicism as a whole. You're making sweeping generalizations that MI never committed to.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2021, 03:14:09 AM
I've been thinking more about your "oil and water" remark. Not specifically regarding Jarvi/Stravinsky or these particular works since, as I said I don't know them except through this disc. But I think I disagree with the basic premise of your comment. If I interpret you correctly, it seems that you feel the only or at least preferable approach to neo-classicism is "cool detachment". While I'd agree that is a legitimate/prevalent approach I do not think it should be the only way. To my mind that risks too neatly compartmentalising a musical genre/style. Surely there will always being multiple ways of approaching any piece and for me part of the interest is where the genre boundaries blur.
So if you take neo-classicism I like the way that very different composers arrived at that common ground - whether Zemlinsky from his Post-Romantic standpoint, Roussel from Impressionism or Stravinsky himself. But surely each also brings a legacy of their earlier style too? If that is the case, an interpreter can legitimately bring out that legacy so perhaps Jarvi can rightly point to elements in Stravinsky's earlier music that 'allows' his emotional approach in these later works too...? Of course there is a counter argument that Stravinsky was a master at reinventing himself as a composer almost as a lizard will shed a skin....
Anyway, it gave me an interesting cause to reflect on this thought.......
Stravinsky's style (or 'brand' if you will) of Neoclassicism is that if you force your emotions on these particular works, there's bound to be an imbalance in the music and, thus, for me at least, will make for a strange listening experience. Of course, Neoclassicism in general, can approached and has been approached in a myriad of different ways, but with Stravinsky it seems that he had a certain sound in mind. Am I saying that if you overheat these Stravinsky Neoclassical works that it will ruin the performance? Yes, but sometimes it can be pulled off, but it does seem that the way Stravinsky conducted these particular works is how they're supposed to sound. You simply can't pull a Kondrashin on
Orpheus for example. It just doesn't work and will never work, IMHO. Anyway, that's my own take on Stravinsky Neoclassical interpretations and why I mentioned Neeme Järvi as being a prime candidate to ruin the flow of these works which would most certainly rob it of its jewel-like opulence. Järvi could get away with his usual, heart-on-sleeve approach in
Le Sacre or
The Firebird because these are works that call for more emotional and musical heft from the conductor/orchestra. The interpretation can be more on the lax side. And yes, Stravinsky was one of classical music's greatest chameleons.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2021, 12:52:17 PM
As my appetite was whetted by the images Rafael was posting on the Stravinsky anniversary, this looked too good not to fetch in. It has landed, in all its magnificence
Hope you enjoy this set as much as I do,
Karl. :)
It's worthy presentation of the recorded legacy of one of the great composers of all time and, as I already said, one of the glories of the history of recorded music (even if some individual recordings are far from perfect—e.g., the mono
Pulcinella from Cleveland verges on the disastrous IMHO).
Quote from: ritter on April 14, 2021, 09:37:00 AM
Hope you enjoy this set as much as I do, Karl. :)
It's worthy presentation of the recorded legacy of one of the great composers of all time and, as I already said, one of the glories of the history of recorded music (even if some individual recordings are far from perfect—e.g., the mono Pulcinella from Cleveland verges on the disastrous IMHO).
Cheers,
Rafael!
Cross-post
Stravinsky
CDs 16 & 17
The Rake's Progress
My feeling for this has been that I admire it more than love it (although there are passages, of course) Not ready to etch that in stone, but the needle did not move, this week.
Wow...there hasn't been a post in Stravinsky's thread since April? :o
Anyway, time to break that trend with a short review I wrote on the Chailly box set:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91gNxPO+lRL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: A Remarkable Box --- All Of Chailly's Stravinsky Under The Same Roof
First, let me say that the people who have complained about this box set's packaging are incredibly nit-picky and really should be grateful that such a box like this exists in the first-place, especially given the reliance of many listeners have on streaming services nowadays and how little importance they place on the physical medium, which I think is a travesty as I'd rather own the physical product any day of week. Why are CDs or LPs so important? Because they give us snapshots into the history a musician's career and allow us to follow their development through time, but also how their views have changed of the composer's music they perform. This is why they're important and will remain important to those of us who value the music. Anyway, stepping off my soapbox...this Stravinsky Chailly box set is absolutely top-notch. For those who missed these performances the first-time around and don't feel like tracking down used copies of original issues then this would be your one-stop shop. I'm not going to talk about individual performances as someone else can do that, but I think this set is absolutely essential for any fan of Stravinsky. BUY IT NOW! What are you waiting for?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 16, 2021, 06:58:42 AM
Cross-post
Stravinsky
CDs 16 & 17
The Rake's Progress
My feeling for this has been that I admire it more than love it (although there are passages, of course) Not ready to etch that in stone, but the needle did not move, this week.
And it wasn't long after the premiere of
The Rake's Progress where the composer had an emotional breakdown claiming that he has nothing else to say in music. Believing that this opera to be his last work. Enter Serialist period Stravinsky. 8)
This looks like an interesting new release:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyMTIzMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDgxMTE1MTV9)
This is a 5-CD set that contains all of Stravinsky's solo piano works including his arrangements for solo piano of various works. This set looks like it's the only one of its kind. Here's a some information about it:
Alexey Zuev has a very special relationship with Stravinsky's music. From the age of seven, it entered his musical universe like a premonition, when he unknowingly 'composed' a piece that bore astonishing similarities to Petrushka. Five years later, he discovered the 'real' Stravinsky and his music never left him.
At the current stage of his career, it was an obvious choice for him to embark on this large-scale recording adventure: recording the complete piano works of the composer who has shaped him so much musically. A veritable marathon of recordings was then almost miraculously put in place, despite the complications presented by the pandemic.
The 5 discs that result from this formidable journey contain, among other things, a series of arrangements and transcriptions for piano made by the composer himself that have never been recorded and have even remained completely unknown. This is a significant discovery that sheds new light on this aspect of Stravinsky's work.
Produced with the support of the Foundation Igor Stravinsky, Stravinsky Family Fund & Kira A. Princess of Prussia Foundation, the boxed set is remarkably illustrated with previously unpublished photographs that immerse the listener in the world of those years of creative experimentation and innovation that made this music what it is today.
Hello. I'm new to the forum, and have been a fan of Stravinsky's music since I was a teenager. I was mostly interested in rock music at the time, and found myself drawn to classical music. I didn't know where to start, and read about this work that started a riot. Hmm, let's start there was my thought.
Thanks for posting about this release. I agree, it looks veryinteresting and will be a must purchase.
Randall
Hi Randall, and welcome. Feel free to post more about Stravinsky, or any other topics that catch your eye. Lots of fans of rock music here, who also like classical.
--Bruce
Quote from: rbd on May 25, 2022, 05:58:09 PM
Hello. I'm new to the forum, and have been a fan of Stravinsky's music since I was a teenager. I was mostly interested in rock music at the time, and found myself drawn to classical music. I didn't know where to start, and read about this work that started a riot. Hmm, let's start there was my thought.
Thanks for posting about this release. I agree, it looks veryinteresting and will be a must purchase.
Randall
Welcome,
Randall!
Quote from: rbd on May 25, 2022, 05:58:09 PM
Hello. I'm new to the forum, and have been a fan of Stravinsky's music since I was a teenager. I was mostly interested in rock music at the time, and found myself drawn to classical music. I didn't know where to start, and read about this work that started a riot. Hmm, let's start there was my thought.
Thanks for posting about this release. I agree, it looks veryinteresting and will be a must purchase.
Randall
Welcome aboard, Randall. That work that started a riot you're thinking of is
Le sacre du printemps, which is still a piece that I get fired up about because it's so exciting and primitive. What are some of your favorite works from Stravinsky?
Thank you all for the warm welcome! i had done an internet search to see if I could find a Stravinsky forum, and found this thread. It has been wonderful reading!
My first Stravinsky recording was Le Sacre, the Colin Davis recording with the LSO in 1963. Why that one? It was the only one at my local record store. Also my introduction to Philips pressings which were amazingly quiet. I still have a soft spot for that recording, even though there are others that I listen to more often.
Favorite Stravinsky works? That changes hourly, but here are a few that come to mind:
1) The Owl and the Pussycat. I can't hear that one enough.It shows how odd my brain is. (Aspergers).
2) Les Noces. I've been going through the various recordings, each one has something to offer. I've been trying to find a complete recording of the 1919 version, but no luck yet. Rex Lawson said he had one that he had performed and was offering it to people at his website. I reached out and sent an email, but alas I didn't get a response.
3) Symphonies of Wind Instruments. I'm not a score follower, so I don't really understand the differences between the 1920 version and the 1947 version, just love the work.
4) Septet. Wonderful dissonant writing...
5) Movements for Piano & Orchestra.
6) Petrushka. That (I think) was the second Stravinsky record that I bought (way back in the day), and still love it.
7) Had to add Threni & Requiem Canticles.
I'm going to stop now ore I will just list all of his works. ;D
This will change in about an hour, but these are the ones that come to mind at the moment. And thanks Mirror Image for the lead on the Piano Transcription Disc, I purchased a download and look forward to digging into this over the next couple of days.
Thanks again for the warm welcome!
Randall
Quote from: rbd on May 25, 2022, 08:46:09 PM
Thank you all for the warm welcome! i had done an internet search to see if I could find a Stravinsky forum, and found this thread. It has been wonderful reading!
My first Stravinsky recording was Le Sacre, the Colin Davis recording with the LSO in 1963. Why that one? It was the only one at my local record store. Also my introduction to Philips pressings which were amazingly quiet. I still have a soft spot for that recording, even though there are others that I listen to more often.
Favorite Stravinsky works? That changes hourly, but here are a few that come to mind:
1) The Owl and the Pussycat. I can't hear that one enough.It shows how odd my brain is. (Aspergers).
2) Les Noces. I've been going through the various recordings, each one has something to offer. I've been trying to find a complete recording of the 1919 version, but no luck yet. Rex Lawson said he had one that he had performed and was offering it to people at his website. I reached out and sent an email, but alas I didn't get a response.
3) Symphonies of Wind Instruments. I'm not a score follower, so I don't really understand the differences between the 1920 version and the 1947 version, just love the work.
4) Septet. Wonderful dissonant writing...
5) Movements for Piano & Orchestra.
6) Petrushka. That (I think) was the second Stravinsky record that I bought (way back in the day), and still love it.
7) Had to add Threni & Requiem Canticles.
I'm going to stop now ore I will just list all of his works. ;D
This will change in about an hour, but these are the ones that come to mind at the moment. And thanks Mirror Image for the lead on the Piano Transcription Disc, I purchased a download and look forward to digging into this over the next couple of days.
Thanks again for the warm welcome!
Randall
Great stuff, Randall. I love all those works. It's difficult for me to find a Stravinsky work that I flat-out despise. I think he always thought about what he was writing and it was quite meticulous in this writing process. You're welcome! You'll have to post some your thoughts here about that solo piano set whenever you get around to hearing some of it. I'll be curious to know your thoughts!
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2022, 04:41:55 PM
This looks like an interesting new release:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyMTIzMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDgxMTE1MTV9)
This is a 5-CD set that contains all of Stravinsky's solo piano works including his arrangements for solo piano of various works. This set looks like it's the only one of its kind. Here's a some information about it:
Alexey Zuev has a very special relationship with Stravinsky's music. From the age of seven, it entered his musical universe like a premonition, when he unknowingly 'composed' a piece that bore astonishing similarities to Petrushka. Five years later, he discovered the 'real' Stravinsky and his music never left him.
At the current stage of his career, it was an obvious choice for him to embark on this large-scale recording adventure: recording the complete piano works of the composer who has shaped him so much musically. A veritable marathon of recordings was then almost miraculously put in place, despite the complications presented by the pandemic.
The 5 discs that result from this formidable journey contain, among other things, a series of arrangements and transcriptions for piano made by the composer himself that have never been recorded and have even remained completely unknown. This is a significant discovery that sheds new light on this aspect of Stravinsky's work.
Produced with the support of the Foundation Igor Stravinsky, Stravinsky Family Fund & Kira A. Princess of Prussia Foundation, the boxed set is remarkably illustrated with previously unpublished photographs that immerse the listener in the world of those years of creative experimentation and innovation that made this music what it is today.
MI, have you heard this or was the above part of a press blurb? If the part I bolded was your impression I'm more interested in the set. To be honest if there were any small scale Stravinsky gems left hidden I'd prefer if they were chamber music and not solo keyboard :) Oh my god I was obsessively playing early Quartetto Italiano's recording of 3 Pieces for String Quartet when their box came out, such a phenomenal performance.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2022, 08:23:18 PM
Wow...there hasn't been a post in Stravinsky's thread since April? :o
Anyway, time to break that trend with a short review I wrote on the Chailly box set:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91gNxPO+lRL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: A Remarkable Box --- All Of Chailly's Stravinsky Under The Same Roof
First, let me say that the people who have complained about this box set's packaging are incredibly nit-picky and really should be grateful that such a box like this exists in the first-place, especially given the reliance of many listeners have on streaming services nowadays and how little importance they place on the physical medium, which I think is a travesty as I'd rather own the physical product any day of week. Why are CDs or LPs so important? Because they give us snapshots into the history a musician's career and allow us to follow their development through time, but also how their views have changed of the composer's music they perform. This is why they're important and will remain important to those of us who value the music. Anyway, stepping off my soapbox...this Stravinsky Chailly box set is absolutely top-notch. For those who missed these performances the first-time around and don't feel like tracking down used copies of original issues then this would be your one-stop shop. I'm not going to talk about individual performances as someone else can do that, but I think this set is absolutely essential for any fan of Stravinsky. BUY IT NOW! What are you waiting for?
Big +1 to everything you said. Will play The Rake's Progress later this evening (original US London CD set with the full libretto)
How can anyone complain about that box, it showed us that Chailly likes to rehearse in a velvet track suit :laugh:
Quote from: hvbias on May 27, 2022, 05:01:19 PM
MI, have you heard this or was the above part of a press blurb? If the part I bolded was your impression I'm more interested in the set. To be honest if there were any small scale Stravinsky gems left hidden I'd prefer if they were chamber music and not solo keyboard :) Oh my god I was obsessively playing early Quartetto Italiano's recording of 3 Pieces for String Quartet when their box came out, such a phenomenal performance.
Big +1 to everything you said. Will play The Rake's Progress later this evening (original US London CD set with the full libretto)
How can anyone complain about that box, it showed us that Chailly likes to rehearse in a velvet track suit :laugh:
It was a part of the press blurb. I haven't heard anything from this set nor have I purchased it. Like you, I'd love more chamber work from Stravinsky, but, sadly, that's just not in the cards. He actually didn't compose much solo piano music either --- it should be more like two discs really if we were to omit all of the transcriptions he made, which appear in this new set.
People's complaints about the Stravinsky Chailly box set make zero sense to me. It's just bitching for the sake of it. I realize you can't please everyone, but there's absolutely NOTHING objectionable about the packaging of this set. Whether someone likes/dislikes Chailly's performances is another matter entirely.
Has anyone had the chance to listen to this recently released recording?
(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/567/567641/4/720/klaus-makela-stravinsky-the-rite-of-spring-the-firebird.jpg)
I was rather impressed by his set of Sibelius symphonies, so I was curious to hear Mäkelä's approach to Stravinsky. I've only listened to The Rite of Spring so far, but I liked it very much; Mäkelä's interpretation is fresh, vibrant, but also meticulous about the reconstruction of the textures, very convincing in my opinion; there's such an energy through all the performance that is very explosive at times, the orchestral sound is colourful and intense, though the instrumental sections are very well balanced and stand out with clarity and precision, to create an immersive atmosphere; the rhythms are compelling too. Awe inspiring performance.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 08:38:27 AMAll right, I was lured into continuing with Dostoyevsky, and now I cannot put Crime & Punishment down (or at least, there are days when I don't pick it up, but I won't pick up any book other until I've finished this re-read).
But once I get to the end of that novel, I'm taking back up:
Stravinsky
A Creative Spring: Russia and France 1882–1934
by Stephen Walsh
The search for this thread resulted in my finding this antique post.
But the real reason I sought the thread was to post this, which I found on YouTube as a result of Luke's example in the Mystery Score thread.
Listened to Symphony in 3 Movements just recently and really enjoyed it. Despite being a later work it thankfully does not have the sparseness that so much of Stravinsky's late music seems to have (Apollo, Agon, Orpheus).
Heard this interpretation:
(https://i.discogs.com/POVtr7PlfxNmRMO-ZY9z0cSsWA3nfAKNi-ZTmw9HOoQ/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:592/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1MzI0/MDk5LTE1ODk3Mzcw/NjgtNzA5Ny5qcGVn.jpeg)
Sparse would be low on my list of descriptors I'd use for those three ballets
Quote from: Atriod on June 28, 2023, 05:16:12 AMSparse would be low on my list of descriptors I'd use for those three ballets
They test my patience quite a bit. How would you describe them?
Of the three, Agon may be the closest to earning the adjective "sparse," although that's not quite right. It's a richly diverse chamber orchestra. The first word that comes to my mind is a word my composition instructor at UVa frequently used: specific. I've always liked all three ballets, so I'm not sure what to suggest to someone whose patience they try. Orpheus has always struck me as warm and lyrical.
Quote from: lordlance on June 28, 2023, 11:12:10 AMThey test my patience quite a bit. How would you describe them?
Karl describes them perfectly, Stravinsky simply uses fewer instruments to portray what is happening but this isn't what I'd call sparse. Sparse is a term I'd use for some of the aesthetic movements that started to happen in the second half of the 20th century. Stravinsky was never part of this crowd.
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 28, 2023, 11:45:28 AMOf the three, Agon may be the closest to earning the adjective "sparse," although that's not quite right. It's a richly diverse chamber orchestra. The first word that comes to my mind is a word my composition instructor at UVa frequently used: specific. I've always liked all three ballets, so I'm not sure what to suggest to someone whose patience they try. Orpheus has always struck me as warm and lyrical.
Warm is the perfect description for Orpheus, especially in Esa-Pekka Salonen's incredible performance.
Quote from: Atriod on June 28, 2023, 03:37:15 PMWarm is the perfect description for Orpheus, especially in Esa-Pekka Salonen's incredible performance.
I have that, but I haven't heard it in ages. Interesting, Orpheus is a work I often felt as being very "cold". (Or maybe I'm thinking of Apollo; I haven't heard either of them in at least two years.) I will try and get to the Salonen Orpheus ASAP.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 28, 2023, 03:43:47 PMI have that, but I haven't heard it in ages. Interesting, Orpheus is a work I often felt as being very "cold". (Or maybe I'm thinking of Apollo; I haven't heard either of them in at least two years.) I will try and get to the Salonen Orpheus ASAP.
Salonen's performance sounds very lyrical and he observes Stravinsky's dynamic markings perfectly, as in he doesn't overdo anything, this adds to its warmth.
As for
Apollo, I'm revisiting
DRD's recording with the
Stuttgarters. Although I know the model was
Lully, the piece has always struck me as evincing a
Haydnesque unforced charm, that plus
Stravinsky's knack for "bending" the source modernward in his particular musical smithy, has me puzzled that one could lose patience with it. That said, our esteemed
@ritter finds it one of his least favorite
Stravinsky works.
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 29, 2023, 09:54:03 AMThat said, our esteemed @ritter finds it one of his least favorite Stravinsky works.
That is true,
Karl. But I must confess that after I saw it danced (a recreation of the
Balanchine choreography by the Spanish National Ballet a couple of years ago), the piece made much more sense to me, and I found things to admire in it. But still, of the three "Greek" ballets,
Agon is a firm favourite of mine, I like
Orpheus very much, and
Apollo ranks a distant third in my preferences.
The sublime 2-Piano Concerto.
Got a lucky break at an auction last week. This pencil sketch of Stravinsky conducting at the BBC in the 1960's was in a general sale and sold for really not very much. The artist is Juliet Pannett who specialised in portrait drawings - often of musicians/composers etc. Examples of her work are held at the National Portrait Gallery in London - although all of those are more "formal" carefully finished works. I rather like the spontaneity and energy of this sketch - and its unmistakeably Stravinsky. There are photos of him at Maida Vale at the same sessions (I assume);
(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/03/05/igorstravinsky_wide-5186cb69673362b41df22150affbdc2c859f67b5-s1100-c50.jpg)
Congratulations, RS! Very nice purchase. And yes, it definitely is a good portrait of Stravinsky, and full of energy and spontaneity. Great stuff!