A continuation of . . . . . . . Paulb's Palatial Pettersson Page . . . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.0.html)
Swedish Composer Gustav Allan Pettersson (September 19, 1911 – June 20, 1980)
(http://jameswagner.com/mt_archives/Pettersson2.GIF)
"The music forming my work is my own life, its blessings, its curses: in order to rediscover the song once sung by the soul."
"I am not a composer. I am a voice crying out, (something that should not be forgotten) that threatens to drown in the noise of the times."
-- Allan Pettersson
(http://www.opus100.de/iapg/begin.jpg)
Links (to be updated from time to time):
The ALLAN PETTERSSON Page (includes several links + extras) (http://homepages.uc.edu/~cauthep/allan.html)
GMG's very own PETTSON website (http://www.iapg.de/iapg.htm)
W I K I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Pettersson)
(http://www.iapg.de/Pettbig.jpg)
BTW, Allan Pettersson's Symphony No. 7 is my personal favorite . . . . . .
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000016IY.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)
I am very sorry, but I LOVE them all! 8)
Quote from: Harry on April 08, 2007, 03:48:53 AM
I am very sorry, but I LOVE them all! 8)
Can't say I have them all since I only have 5 of the symphonies and the viola concerto, but I love what I do have!
Don't get the violin concerto no.2 yet. I found it quite boring to listen too :o - hystronics for 50 minutes!!
Quote from: Harry on April 08, 2007, 03:48:53 AM
I am very sorry, but I LOVE them all! 8)
Harry, I like what you wrote about Pettersson's Symphony no. 2: (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,977.msg409123.html#msg409123)
Allan Pettersson.
Symphony No. 2
BBC Scottish SO/Alun Francis.If there ever was composer that impressed me most of all this last year, its Pettersson for sure. This second Symphony is a dream, a dream in notes, a excess of tonal beauty, a overflowing cup of inward and outward genius.
I worship this beauty, and bow deeply, for what I have the chance to listen too. I am permitted to sit down and enjoy this fantastic music, gloriously recorded and performed. That
Alun Francis is a deeply committed conductor is clear from the outset as the Symphony starts PPPP, and flows into being out of thin air, and forms one magnificent movement of tonal perfection.
Because for me it is that, exactly.
Quote from: D Minor on April 08, 2007, 04:05:51 AM
Harry, I like what you wrote about Pettersson's Symphony no. 2: (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,977.msg409123.html#msg409123)
Allan Pettersson.
Symphony No. 2
BBC Scottish SO/Alun Francis.
If there ever was composer that impressed me most of all this last year, its Pettersson for sure. This second Symphony is a dream, a dream in notes, a excess of tonal beauty, a overflowing cup of inward and outward genius.
I worship this beauty, and bow deeply, for what I have the chance to listen too. I am permitted to sit down and enjoy this fantastic music, gloriously recorded and performed. That Alun Francis is a deeply committed conductor is clear from the outset as the Symphony starts PPPP, and flows into being out of thin air, and forms one magnificent movement of tonal perfection.
Because for me it is that, exactly.
Thank you so much, for giving me the opportunity to read it again, and for your compliment.
In my player, the second Symphony! :)
Quote from: Shunk_Manitu_Tanka on April 08, 2007, 05:20:07 AM
I, too, love his 7th, as I love his 6th (the only two i've heard)... well, "love" is a little weak to describe my admiration and addiction for this "voice crying out" (héhé): as Harry said, it is tonal perfection. But not only that; the atmosphere, the emotional expression of this music.. everything is just so intense, no matter what it communicates, be it sorrow, rage, madness, beauty... etc. And those melodies! The man can crush me like no other!
I'm waiting for his 8th; cant wait to hear it!
Yes, you add some things which also played a important part in assessing Pettersson for me!
When I discovered Pettersson, it was a bit of a shock. His 7th and 8th are very dramatic symphonies which evoke strong emotions, with me that is. I listened to all of the symphonies (with the execption of the first - has it been recorded yet?) and I find the nos. 5 -9 the most accessible.
X
Quote from: D Minor on April 08, 2007, 04:05:51 AM
Harry, I like what you wrote about Pettersson's Symphony no. 2: (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,977.msg409123.html#msg409123)
Allan Pettersson.
Symphony No. 2
BBC Scottish SO/Alun Francis.
If there ever was composer that impressed me most of all this last year, its Pettersson for sure. This second Symphony is a dream, a dream in notes, a excess of tonal beauty, a overflowing cup of inward and outward genius.
I worship this beauty, and bow deeply, for what I have the chance to listen too. I am permitted to sit down and enjoy this fantastic music, gloriously recorded and performed.
Harry, you sound like Anton Bruckner after hearing a performance of Parsifal and then gushing with superlatives.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 08, 2007, 10:36:57 AM
Harry, you sound like Anton Bruckner after hearing a performance of Parsifal and then gushing with superlatives.
Really? ???
Quote from: Harry on April 08, 2007, 11:04:54 AM
Really? ???
Yeah, really. In David Dubal's
Essential Canons of Classical Music he writes:
An excerpt from a letter reveals Bruckner's fawning hero worsjip: In 1882, "The Master, took my hand and said...'Have you been to Parsifal?' I bent down on my knee, kissing and pressing his noble hand to my mouth, and said,
'Oh Master, I worship you !'
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 08, 2007, 11:55:45 AM
Yeah, really. In David Dubal's Essential Canons of Classical Music he writes:
An excerpt from a letter reveals Bruckner's fawning hero worsjip: In 1882, "The Master, took my hand and said...'Have you been to Parsifal?' I bent down on my knee, kissing and pressing his noble hand to my mouth, and said, 'Oh Master, I worship you !'
I am not against worshipping!
I try to write as I feel, and that feels good to me.
Quote from: Harry on April 08, 2007, 12:35:41 PM
I am not against worshipping!
I try to write as I feel, and that feels good to me.
Perhaps you "worship" the
music (or its beauty), not the
composer . . . . . .
Quote from: D Minor on April 08, 2007, 12:39:40 PM
Perhaps you "worship" the music (or its beauty), not the composer . . . . . .
Absolutely correct. ;D
Quote from: Guido on April 08, 2007, 03:59:06 AM
Don't get the violin concerto no.2 yet. I found it quite boring to listen too :o - hystronics for 50 minutes!!
I think that it's Pettersson's masterpiece, the last ten minutes or so are amongst the most moving things I know in music. Symphony 6-8 are my favourites.
Quote from: Guido on April 08, 2007, 03:59:06 AM
Don't get the violin concerto no.2 yet. I found it quite boring to listen too :o - hystronics for 50 minutes!!
Well that's your opinion! I think it is very good, and not at all boring.
That's just my first impression - from the amount of proponants the piece has here I know I need to listen a few more times. It reminded me of Gorecki's 3rd Symphony in scale and how it used material (and relative slow moving structure).
I have to agree with Gido, the 2nd VC is pure brilliance. At first it sounded really abstract and random, even for a Pettersson piece, but finally it grew on me, such great melodies. It's hard to get into but really pays off, those melodies will be in your head for a long time!
Btw huge Pettersson fan here, and i haven't even heard half of his work.
Quote from: Captain Haddock on April 08, 2007, 02:28:46 PM
the last ten minutes or so are amongst the most moving things I know in music.
Agreed completely... it is very powerful, especially since it is an almost "optimistic" conclusion, perhaps the only one in all his work...
I've been listening to Symphony 8 a lot recently.
(http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/scottycam/dg_pettersson_8a.JPG)
(That ebay scan got cuts off the bottom of the Lp.)
A dark (though not self-pitying or neurotic), enigmatic, hypnotic work. It unfolds its secrets slowly.
Is there a recording of Pettersson's first Symphony? I have listened to all 16 of them (although i do not know them all very wel except for 6-9) but I never see the first mentioned anywhere.
X
Another vote for the violin concerto. I hear there's a new disc out on CPO? Mine is the old Ida Handel on Caprice (with the Barefoot Songs - a beauty!).
I think the first symphony's score was destroyed by the composer.
Quote from: XXXPawn on April 14, 2007, 12:31:59 PM
Is there a recording of Pettersson's first Symphony? I have listened to all 16 of them (although i do not know them all very wel except for 6-9) but I never see the first mentioned anywhere.
X
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Pettersson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Pettersson)
Read everything here my friend.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 14, 2007, 12:45:49 PM
Another vote for the violin concerto. I hear there's a new disc out on CPO? Mine is the old Ida Handel on Caprice (with the Barefoot Songs - a beauty!).
I think the first symphony's score was destroyed by the composer.
There are two Violin concertos, which one are you referring to?
Both concertos on CPO are excellent.
I was wrong. The first is unfinished, but this link http://www.iapg.de/iapg.htm? even has an mp3 excerpt of the beginning. Quite strange I must say.
Quote from: Xantus' Murrelet on April 09, 2007, 04:54:18 AM
Agreed completely... it is very powerful, especially since it is an almost "optimistic" conclusion, perhaps the only one in all his work...
Symphony No 6 has a, kind of, rugged "struggle towards the sunrise" conclusion which I love. I wish Sony would reissue Kamu's LP version on CD and DGG release the Commisionna, Baltimore SO version of No 8.
His 7th symphony is one of the best things I've heard in years, one of my classical discoveries for which I'm most thankful. Just a phenomenal work with staggering emotional power. I hope to buy the CPO box set of his symphonies soon.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 14, 2007, 12:45:49 PM
Another vote for the violin concerto. I hear there's a new disc out on CPO? Mine is the old Ida Handel on Caprice
I have this CD. I remember being traumatized by the concerto and trying to bring it back to the used record store where I bought it. Luckily, they wouldn't take it back. 8)
Quote from: Guido on April 08, 2007, 05:51:59 PM
That's just my first impression - from the amount of proponants the piece has here I know I need to listen a few more times. It reminded me of Gorecki's 3rd Symphony in scale and how it used material (and relative slow moving structure).
Gorecki's third is more a continuous Largo, I don't see that in Pettersson...l.....
Quote from: The Emperor on April 09, 2007, 04:45:03 AM
I have to agree with Gido, the 2nd VC is pure brilliance. At first it sounded really abstract and random, even for a Pettersson piece, but finally it grew on me, such great melodies. It's hard to get into but really pays off, those melodies will be in your head for a long time!
Btw huge Pettersson fan here, and i haven't even heard half of his work.
I didn't get that from Guidos post...Perhaps you should read it again...He didnt say it was pure brilliance.
Quote from: Grazioso on April 15, 2007, 04:20:13 AM
His 7th symphony is one of the best things I've heard in years, one of my classical discoveries for which I'm most thankful. Just a phenomenal work with staggering emotional power. I hope to buy the CPO box set of his symphonies soon.
Agreed, it is a most profound statement of great art!
Quote from: Captain Haddock on April 14, 2007, 11:06:09 PM
Symphony No 6 has a, kind of, rugged "struggle towards the sunrise" conclusion which I love. I wish Sony would reissue Kamu's LP version on CD and DGG release the Commisionna, Baltimore SO version of No 8.
It's quite nice that it can be interpreted in many ways. I (and many others I know who love this work) see the conclusion as a drawn out painful lament sort of thing only.
As for the Kamu 6th, I have it in an LP-to-mp3 transfer of some kind, somewhat low quality. I prefer the CPO version really...
Quote from: Xantus' Murrelet on April 15, 2007, 06:44:13 PMIt's quite nice that it can be interpreted in many ways. I (and many others I know who love this work) see the conclusion as a drawn out painful lament sort of thing only.
He, I'm back...
ADD ME!!!!!11!
- The greatest Symphony that I know of.
- The saddest conclusion ever.
I hope I'll ever see #6 performed live once in my life. I'm 35, there is a chance :) Keep in mind: "Life without Pettersson #6 is possible, but makes no sense".
I understand your enthusiasm. It's almost puzzling that an outwardly rebarbative composer would elicit such devoted following. I, too, believe that # 6 is his most haunting, tragic, deepest work. At other times I feel the same about # 9, though.
We await Karl's formulation of an opinion with regards to Pettersson 2:
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 04:23:35 AM
Pettersson
Symphony No. 2
BBC Scottish Symphony
Alun Francis
I'm going to listen more, and so am in no haste to form opinion.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 08:01:47 AM
I'm going to listen more, and so am in no haste to form opinion.
Please share if, at some point, you do happen to formulate an opinion on this or any Pettersson symphony ......... :)
Thank you for the kind and most neighborly invitation,
mon vieux! :)
One pre-opinion remark is, that the symphony is Big, and so my ears need to get their bearings. And as I have found before with the first attempts to grasp a Big work, my ear is in a sense misled in taking things which more closely seem to echo another piece which I already know, as being the most salient 'landmarks' (because the most readily 'recognizable'). And so, for good or ill, I often find that some of my initial 'thoughts' on hearing such a piece, are the first I discard when I get to know the whole rather better.
More sometime later :-)
=====
Lethe, I don't remember
PaulB making that specific recommendation . . . bless his soul, I have an idea that he might think
any Pettersson symphony a good place to start :D
But I've already been introduced to
Pettersson, in the
Seventh & Sixteenth (
Stockholm Phil/Dorati/Ahronovitch) . . . which I listened to only once, some time ago.
Quote from: D Minor on September 20, 2007, 08:16:36 AM
That's because his LvB recommendations were based on 60-second clips .........
I think
Paul's attention tended to waver at about the 25-second mark, too 8)
From distant memory, I recall that PaulB liked the 2nd a lot, and recommended it as the first piece a non-Petterssonite should hear. While I wouldn't trust his recommendations on Beethoven, his ones on Pettersson is perhaps a little more trustworthy :P
Quote from: Lethe on September 20, 2007, 08:12:29 AM
While I wouldn't trust his recommendations on Beethoven, his ones on Pettersson is perhaps a little more trustworthy :P
That's because his LvB recommendations were based on 60-second clips .........
I think it's chrystal clear and simple: Sym. Nos. 6 (you know #6 is his best work? :) ),7,8 are a good place to start. They are very accessible works and have a well understandable structure. And beautiful highlights. I will upload some very convincing snippets of those later because I feel sorry for anybody who hasn't heard the symphonies in his lifetime! ;)
EDIT: I've ask CPO first about publishing snippets and stuff... I've always been interested in their opinion on copyright and all this...
Yeh those are good ones to start, the 7th was my first and it instantly hit me, beautiful work, same goes for the others.
Some extended clips of 5 and 7:
http://www.uc.edu/libraries_CCM/pettersson/5compare.html
I love the 7th Symphony, but the few others I've heard (6th and 9th) really haven't made much of an impression. I need to give them a few more listens, I suppose, but I understood the 7th the first time I heard it, while the others, to my ears, are rambling and lacking in strong ideas. When I start listening to the 7th, I can't help but listen to the whole work. But I really have to force myself to sit through the other symphonies. Being a big fan of Mahler, Sibelius, Berg and post-war music, I don't have a problem with the idiom.
Quote from: MDL on September 24, 2007, 03:03:26 AM
I love the 7th Symphony, but the few others I've heard (6th and 9th) really haven't made much of an impression. I need to give them a few more listens, I suppose, but I understood the 7th the first time I heard it, while the others, to my ears, are rambling and lacking in strong ideas. When I start listening to the 7th, I can't help but listen to the whole work. But I really have to force myself to sit through the other symphonies. Being a big fan of Mahler, Sibelius, Berg and post-war music, I don't have a problem with the idiom.
Try the 8th, which falls rather along the lines of the 7th. The structure and motifs aren't quite as tight and powerful, but it's still a moving, interesting work.
The central symphonies are the most accessible, generally speaking, that is 5 through to 9.
You, surely, cannot fail to respond to these?
Personally, I struggle to like both the 12th and the 16th.
I diverge from some viewpoints in that I think all of his symphonies end optimistically. There is hope at the end, all but a mere flicker, sometimes, but it is there, otherwise they would be a hard slog, indeed, even with his unerring melodic invention.
I can take enormous pleasure from the 5th, 6th and 9th symphonies, in particular.
Quote from: MDL on September 24, 2007, 03:03:26 AM
I love the 7th Symphony, but the few others I've heard (6th and 9th) really haven't made much of an impression. I need to give them a few more listens, I suppose, but I understood the 7th the first time I heard it, while the others, to my ears, are rambling and lacking in strong ideas. When I start listening to the 7th, I can't help but listen to the whole work. But I really have to force myself to sit through the other symphonies. Being a big fan of Mahler, Sibelius, Berg and post-war music, I don't have a problem with the idiom.
I also find the 7th head and shoulders above the rest, but the others are fun too. In addition to the recommendation of the 8th (which I would second), perhaps try the 16th, which is a concise work.
Quote from: Lethe on September 24, 2007, 10:40:13 AM
I also find the 7th head and shoulders above the rest, but the others are fun too. In addition to the recommendation of the 8th (which I would second), perhaps try the 16th, which is a concise work.
When I get a Pettersson album from eclassical, I while go for the 7th then. :)
Quote from: DavidW on September 24, 2007, 02:56:03 PM
When I get a Pettersson album from eclassical, I while go for the 7th then. :)
I hope you like it. It's a truly remarkable achivement IMO. Others (such as the 6th) are similarly negative in tone, but are more episodic. The 7th just rolls on and on, it reminds me of running out of air underwater or something :P
Quote from: Harry on April 14, 2007, 12:46:03 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Pettersson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Pettersson)
Read everything here my friend.
it says he was a son of a "violent alcoholic blacksmith"...
that must explain his music lol
Quote from: Grazioso on September 21, 2007, 04:45:31 AM
Some extended clips of 5 and 7:
http://www.uc.edu/libraries_CCM/pettersson/5compare.html
hey, where's 7? from how people are talking about it, i wanna listen again!
Quote from: greg on September 24, 2007, 03:10:55 PM
it says he was a son of a "violent alcoholic blacksmith"...
that must explain his music lol
hey, where's 7? from how people are talking about it, i wanna listen again!
http://www.uc.edu/libraries_CCM/pettersson/7compare.html
Quote from: Grazioso on September 25, 2007, 04:32:08 AM
http://www.uc.edu/libraries_CCM/pettersson/7compare.html
thanks!
which one is your favorite?
Quote from: DavidW on September 24, 2007, 02:56:03 PM
When I get a Pettersson album from eclassical, I while go for the 7th then. :)
That's where I started many years ago.
http://www.uc.edu/libraries_CCM/pettersson/7compare.html
Wow! All those composers take zero time to get through measures 1 to 32? The mind reeeeeels! 8)
(Poorly designed chart.)
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 05:40:11 AM
http://www.uc.edu/libraries_CCM/pettersson/7compare.html
Wow! All those composers take zero time to get through measures 1 to 32? The mind reeeeeels! 8)
(Poorly designed chart.)
that's where they start, Mr. Special Ed ;)
Quote from: greg on September 25, 2007, 05:43:40 AM
that's where they start, Mr. Special Ed ;)
Then, the first row should be "m.1" not "mm.1-32" (begging the question,
why 32? why not 16 or 84?)
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 05:49:36 AM
Then, the first row should be "m.1" not "mm.1-32" (begging the question, why 32? why not 16 or 84?)
you mean the clip doesn't end on mm.32?...
Not sure I'm sharp enough for Special Ed . . . .
Upon a few listens I have a hard time selecting one work above the rest. Pettersson is one of the most innovative composers I have been introduced to in a while. If I was not so busy I would make a much more singular attempt at peeling apart his works, but suffice it to say that for a guy as busy as I am, his work has been an incredible place for me to go to when I need to cleanse myself of my Mandarin class (which is about driving me mad). His works are modern and exciting, and still wrapped up (large or not) in a form that is digestible and not too alienating.
Yeah Sweden. Leave it to those wonderful Swedes.
j
Quote from: sonic1 on September 25, 2007, 08:22:47 PM
His works are modern and exciting, and still wrapped up (large or not) in a form that is digestible and not too alienating.
j
It is lines like that that will, hopefully, induce others to sample his music!
Quote from: sonic1 on September 25, 2007, 08:22:47 PM
Yeah Sweden. Leave it to those wonderful Swedes.
I do hear in
Pettersson's work, a kind of response to Abba . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on September 27, 2007, 06:43:21 AMI do hear in Pettersson's work, a kind of response to Abba . . . .
Honestly: I don't remember at what symphony/part of it, I was thinking "this reminds me a bit of pop music".
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 27, 2007, 11:18:02 AM
Honestly: I don't remember at what symphony/part of it, I was thinking "this reminds me a bit of pop music".
i heard somewhere on a Pettersson thread that he had to compose while the neighbor's had their music up loud, maybe that kinda influenced him?...
Or maybe Pettersson just ate Ubloobideega . . . .
I'm still making my way through the cycle (Pettersson, not Ubloobideega).
Quote from: greg on September 27, 2007, 11:26:36 AM
i heard somewhere on a Pettersson thread that he had to compose while the neighbor's had their music up loud, maybe that kinda influenced him?...
In which case, I'd like to know what music his neighbors were cranking ........
A few months back, Sarge had formulated some impressions of Pettersson 16:
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2007, 05:48:15 AM
Listening to Pettersson's 16th:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/Pet516.jpg)
Mindful of that quote I was a little worried as I put the disc in the player. Pettersson does occasionally irritate when he lashes onto an idea and won't let it go. I think the guy needed a good editor. But in this case, no, I didn't find it irritating at all. It's a marvelous symphony and should be one of the least daunting for a Pettersson neophyte because of its gentler nature and shorter length.
I'm a saxophone player so this was definitely an enjoyable experience for me. I did fear at first that it would stick out like a sore thumb but when I mentally decided it wasn't a symphony at all but really a concerto, all doubts vanished. I thought the sax was well integrated in the mix too; just part of the orchestral fabric and that lessened the listening challenge.
The liner notes talk of the elegiac nature of the saxophone's sound and I think the alto expresses that even more than the "sexier" sounding tenor. The alto works perfectly in this symphony which is, like almost everything Pettersson wrote, an elegy. Good thing he didn't employ the soprano sax: Harry would have been climbing the walls, howling in pain ;D
This is an intensely beautiful piece of music. The Cantabile expressivo second section is haunting. I love the way the third section ends, with simple chords on the brass, sounding like a Brucknerian benediction.
Sarge
Quote from: D Minor on September 27, 2007, 12:51:43 PM
A few months back, Sarge had formulated some impressions of Pettersson 16:
To which Robert responded:
Quote from: Robert on May 22, 2007, 08:49:16 AM
beautiful sarge. Its nice to finally hear some positive feedback about this symphony. I have always enjoyed it and could not quite understand why they always blamed the sax... I got my feet wet with this type of symphony with Ornette Colemans symphony "Skies over America" a classic....
And, to which Harry felt compelled to add a disclaimer .......
Quote from: Harry on May 22, 2007, 06:16:11 AM
Sarge let it be clear, I love this Symphony, and as you say the Sax is well integrated into the fabric of the composition.
I love the sound also, but felt at times the notes written for it irritating, but that could well be the object of Pettersson, just to do that.
I must say on my primary system the sax sounded more at one with the orchestra, so it could well be that that was the cause of my irritation. That said I rather hear the sax outside a symphony, as a solo instrument. And the Soprano sax would indeed have me up in the curtains. ;D
Quote from: karlhenning on September 27, 2007, 11:28:06 AM
Or maybe Pettersson just ate Ubloobideega . . . .
I'm still making my way through the cycle (Pettersson, not Ubloobideega).
Ubloobideega's symphonic cycle takes much longer to get through, more like 2 years of 1 hour of each day and you'll be done. And he's always writing, too, in his cardboard box by the gas station.
some of the symphonies i recommend by Ubloobideega include the Poopoo Symphony, the Fake Moustache Symphony, and Symphony No. 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081284811174502841027019385211055596446229489549303819644288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234603486104543266482133936072602491412737245870066063155881748815209209628292540917153643678925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094330572703657595919530921861173819326117931051185480744623799627495673518857527248912279381830119491.
Quote from: D Minor on September 27, 2007, 12:51:43 PM
A few months back, Sarge had formulated some impressions of Pettersson 16:
Thanks for digging this up, D. I'd forgotten I'd written about the symphony.
Sarge
I've just had my first dose ever of Pettersson today with Smphony no:16, and I am totally sold on first listen. If 16th isn't even considered near the top of his symphonic output, that's even better :D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2007, 03:43:49 AM
Thanks for digging this up, D. I'd forgotten I'd written about the symphony.
Sarge
That's the great thing about classical music websites: even though the post is 5 months old, it seems
as fresh as ever when applied to a new context (in this case, transplanting it from the WAYLT thread). :D
Quote from: orbital on September 28, 2007, 12:02:54 PM
I've just had my first dose ever of Pettersson today with Smphony no:16, and I am totally sold on first listen. If 16th isn't even considered near the top of his symphonic output, that's even better :D
Not even close to the top to me. Now get the symphonies 6-7-8!
Quote from: Shunk_Manitu_Tanka on September 28, 2007, 01:10:48 PM
Not even close to the top to me. Now get the symphonies 6-7-8!
Since my CD buying days are coming to a close, I am looking at available downloads.
How are 7 and 8 from Segerstram? At $0.80 each :D
Quote from: orbital on September 28, 2007, 01:37:55 PM
Since my CD buying days are coming to a close, I am looking at available downloads.
How are 7 and 8 from Segerstram? At $0.80 each :D
$0.80 for a complete symphony? :o
Quote from: orbital on September 28, 2007, 01:37:55 PM
Since my CD buying days are coming to a close, I am looking at available downloads.
How are 7 and 8 from Segerstram? At $0.80 each :D
Only heard the 7th from Segerstram, and i prefer it to the cpo one.
At $0.80 each, you cant really go wrong...
Quote from: D Minor on September 28, 2007, 01:53:41 PM
$0.80 for a complete symphony? :o
amazon.com downloads, not actual CD's 8)
Quote from: Shunk_Manitu_Tanka on September 28, 2007, 01:10:48 PM
Not even close to the top to me. Now get the symphonies 6-7-8!
Just listened to 6 with Trojahn on cpo. Very good. The 6-7-8 trilogy are my favorites as well, though I admit to not knowing 5 and 2. Nr 9 makes a strong impression as well, though youn have to be reasonably determined, as it's long and takes its time before it punches its points home.
Quote from: erato on October 01, 2007, 01:42:19 AM
Just listened to 6 with Trojahn on cpo. Very good. The 6-7-8 trilogy are my favorites as well, though I admit to not knowing 5 and 2. Nr 9 makes a strong impression as well, though youn have to be reasonably determined, as it's long and takes its time before it punches its points home.
You should try the 2nd, you wont be sorry. Yes, the 9th is very long and very complexe.
Quote from: erato on October 01, 2007, 01:42:19 AM
Just listened to 6 with Trojahn on cpo. Very good. The 6-7-8 trilogy are my favorites as well, though I admit to not knowing 5 and 2. Nr 9 makes a strong impression as well, though youn have to be reasonably determined, as it's long and takes its time before it punches its points home.
Unless your soul knows the Pettersson "language", you may not take right away to his music. I have yet to see a disgruntled opinion about his music, at least those who are in the modernist camp, CM Debussy forward.I find his unique voice starts at 6.
its 6-11,13-15. All parts of a Grand Symphonic Cycle, nothing like it in the history of CM. Other than Wager's Ring of course. But nothing in the symphonic genre.
To newbies in P, if nothing at first, shelve the cd and come back some in some yrs. eventually it will "click".
Hey Paulb ........ welcome back!
I wonder if Pettersson consciously (intentionally) created an interrelated, integrated symphony cycle (syms 6-11), or if there merely happens to be similarities .........
Quote from: Dm on January 11, 2008, 05:16:39 PM
Hey Paulb ........ welcome back!
I wonder if Pettersson consciously (intentionally) created an interrelated, integrated symphony cycle (syms 6-11), or if there merely happens to be similarities .........
thanks for the welcome lots to read through, good to see others came around to Pettersson.
Yes, somewhere in one of the liner notes on BIS or CPO there is mention of this interconnection of the syms.
Though it doesn't take a genius to hear something that leads one sym into the other. Yet stand independent of the fore and after sym. . I guess comparison would be Wagner's Ring cycle, Yes?
Shostakovich syms 5,7,8 may share some modal commonality, in this sense.
So the cycle goes 6-11, 13-15. Though i need to re listen to the 5th, last time i heard it, i felt there was still the Sibelius influence , the 6th breaks all contact with Sibelius as mentor. Nothing wrong with the 5th, nor the 2,3,4. Just can't place them in the cycle. \Reacll Mozart's "last 6 syms", "last pc's" all clearly broke totally new ground. Something like that here starting with the 6th.
But should not keep one from enjoying the 2-5, not at all.
Glad for your question.
paul
Quote from: Dm on January 11, 2008, 05:16:39 PM
Hey Paulb ........ welcome back!
I wonder if Pettersson consciously (intentionally) created an interrelated, integrated symphony cycle (syms 6-11), or if there merely happens to be similarities .........
someone over at the amazon forum posted today his experience of the 12th, which has been some time since i last heard it, so plaed the Choral Sym today.
I agree ith his comment thats it 'one of the most darkest" and brought up schonberg's Warsaw survivor and Shostakovich's Babi Yar 13th sym.
I found the 12th far beyond any dark colors of ither of those 2 works.
Its so dark and posesses such true symphonic form, less choral'like /more symphonic structure going on, that I may, and i fact will now officially include this powerful gripping sym to become establshed as part of The Symphonic Cycle.
6-15.
Now I'll relisten to the 5th which some feel begins the cycle.
btw i see tha CPO has the 12th as a single release and part of the box set. I will order it to compare with the OOP Caprice. I hope te CPO capture at least close to this overwhelming emotiona Carl Rune (love his name) Larsson live performance.
Man, discovered a new treasure in this 12th!
EDIT:
welp, i went ahead and looked at the CPO release, and luckliy enought there's clips ;D
(btw i rarely resort to clip listening as most of my cd buying is over, collection is like 99% complete with only Boulez to add),,,so as the clips proceed, I can can only say with unsubstantiated actual listening, the CPO and Caprice appear to be "not the same experience".
So far as i can tell ...you know i'm a pro on the clip thing ;D, that the Chorus on the Caprice has a greater sense of density and power.
I could be wrong as to that opinion, its more conjecture, but enough to keep me from clicking the BUY button. And sadly the Caprice is OPP, with 3 offered at amazon at $30+
I love the mellifluous name of the conductor , Carl Rune Larsson.
Quote from: Dm on January 11, 2008, 05:16:39 PM
Hey Paulb ........ welcome back!
I wonder if Pettersson consciously (intentionally) created an interrelated, integrated symphony cycle (syms 6-11), or if there merely happens to be similarities .........
issues which dominated Pettersson;s life since childhood, struck deep chords within his painfull existence. Yeah Shostakovich , as with many other great composers also suffered on a cosmic scale.
Suffering also has a unique individual quality separate from the generalized sense of the term.
This psychological journey that Pettersson found to be forced upon him , affects all his music and so the Pettersson voice with a sense of One Language, comes out in all his music.
There's nothing wrong with this, though outsiders to his music might interpret that as monotone, yet the Pettersson-ians know better that to stigmatize his music as idosyncratic mono-toned..
Quote from: paulb on January 14, 2008, 05:25:53 PM
issues which dominated Pettersson;s life since childhood, struck deep chords within his painfull existence. Yeah Shostakovich , as with many other great composers also suffered on a cosmic scale.
Suffering also has a unique individual quality separate from the generalized sense of the term.
This psychological journey that Pettersson found to be forced upon him , affects all his music and so the Pettersson voice with a sense of One Language, comes out in all his music.
There's nothing wrong with this, though outsiders to his music might interpret that as monotone, yet the Pettersson-ians know better that to stigmatize his music as idosyncratic mono-toned..
Paul is that you in your avatar? :o
Quote from: 復活交響曲 on January 14, 2008, 06:26:30 PM
Paul is that you in your avatar? :o
yes, photo shot first day, after 2 yr absence, in our reconstructed lakeview home. I'll have to try to load some pics of new Orleans post Katrina 2 yrs. You guys would be amazed at what i saw the other day. Totally UNREAL!
I have a bunch of ancedotes and a few horror stories, especially if you went there at night! You'd feel chills down the spine. And there's no one around, just you and those "haunted houses", made by the hand of Katrina... walk down these streets off Franklin Ave around midnight say.... :o,,,but why be afraid, there;s no one around, all deserted...I couldn't do it. Just the daytime was errie enough.
Listening to Pettersson's sym 3. i love how Pettersson pays respects and hommage to his great mentor Sibelius, throughout the entire second movement, but especially at 5:50 and continues on this "variation on a theme by Sibelius" through the 7th minute. I'm busy looking where Pettersson draws that passage from in Sibelius.
Anyone know the section from Sibelius?. Anyone know?
Pettersson wrote the 3rd in 1954/55, he's just testing his wings, and hints of whats ahead in future syms, breaks forth , getting ever closer to finding his true unique voice, established firmly at sym 6.
I plan to hear the 4th then the 5th.
I'm not sure if i should comment about excluding any sym from "the cycle". Each has to hear and discover Pettersson's syms in their own individual way. I don't wish to impose any ideas about order/cycles or such dogmas on these fine syms.
I cannot get on with the 12th and, yet, I was looking forward to this final issue in the CPO cycle.
Likewise, the 16th but I find my interest wanes with this composer the later the works are.
For example, I admire the 13th, 14th and 15th but love the central set of 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 whilst liking the rest. I wonder whether, in the CPO cycle, it may be because those conducted by Alun Francis seem to me to be a cut above the others.
I shall need to give this composer a rest for a bit and return in time to the 12th and 16th.
That is not to discourage others in their enthusiasm for this, still, unjustly neglected composer!
Quote from: Hector on January 15, 2008, 04:38:54 AM
I cannot get on with the 12th and, yet, I was looking forward to this final issue in the CPO cycle.
Likewise, the 16th but I find my interest wanes with this composer the later the works are.
For example, I admire the 13th, 14th and 15th but love the central set of 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 whilst liking the rest. I wonder whether, in the CPO cycle, it may be because those conducted by Alun Francis seem to me to be a cut above the others.
I shall need to give this composer a rest for a bit and return in time to the 12th and 16th.
That is not to discourage others in their enthusiasm for this, still, unjustly neglected composer!
Hector
Good to see you came around To Pettersson.
Could you or anyone go to the 3rd sym, 2nd movement at 5:50-6:40 and let me know from which work of Sibelius does Pettersson draw from.
I listened to various Sibelius last night and can't find it. maybe a sym, not sure, esaily recognizable, but i've been away from Sibelius for yrs now.
Here's a link to Youtube with Comissiona's live performance of the 7th, resolution, with the Swdish RSO.
I had the rare OOP cd but didn'r feel the performance was up to the standards of the CPO and BIS, I sold it off.
And listening to the Youtube confirms my original 5 yr old opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2SU1nu3Wn8&feature=related
Quote from: Varg on October 01, 2007, 01:52:59 AM
You should try the 2nd, you wont be sorry. Yes, the 9th is very long and very complexe.
Varg. I tend not to suggest the 2,3,4,5 syms for anyone. I feel the 6th begins the journey into Pettersson.
btw how do you like the photo of Pettersson? It shows more about the man than the photo in your profile.
Schnittke and Pettersson , unlike any other composers in late 20th C music. Amazing they were contemporaries , just miles apart and speaking a profound language that only a few can hear. Ahh these days we live in. Unlike any in history.
Quote from: paulb on January 15, 2008, 08:49:12 AM
Hector
Good to see you came around To Pettersson.
Could you or anyone go to the 3rd sym, 2nd movement at 5:50-6:40 and let me know from which work of Sibelius does Pettersson draw from.
I listened to various Sibelius last night and can't find it. maybe a sym, not sure, esaily recognizable, but i've been away from Sibelius for yrs now.
Here's a link to Youtube with Comissiona's live performance of the 7th, resolution, with the Swdish RSO.
I had the rare OOP cd but didn'r feel the performance was up to the standards of the CPO and BIS, I sold it off.
And listening to the Youtube confirms my original 5 yr old opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2SU1nu3Wn8&feature=related
I've been keen on Pettersson for a number of years.
I have the 3rd on iPod and listened to that section. It does not sound like any Sibelius I know. Sorry. :(
Quote from: paulb on January 15, 2008, 09:17:02 AM
Schnittke and Pettersson, unlike any other composers in late 20th C music.
Oh, I can sign on to that! :-)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2008, 06:39:19 AM
Oh, I can sign on to that! :-)
HI Karl
Meaning...are you romantic-ISTS ready for this, both like unto Mozart and Beethoven as in their day.
"Unlike to any others" If some care to remain fixated (freudian term) is a long ago past, reminiscing over muisc our great-grand fathers once listened to, go right ahead.
Pettersson and schnittke speak to and for the unique, individual modern soul.
Hector i plan to write to a Pettersson Page in sweden, maybe they know.
I know for a fact that passge in the 3rd sym is from Sibelius, now where? The only work of Sibelius I do not have is Pjohola's Daughter, and may be there.
I'll get back once I get an answer.
Hey you Sibelius-ians that would be a nice research project for you guys.And maybe in the research you'll come around to Sibelius kinsman, Pettersson in the process.
Things happen just like that.
Man I love that photo of Pettersson in my avatar. That photo reveals who the man is in his music, deep, profound.
Quote from: paulb on January 16, 2008, 06:56:28 AM
HI Karl
Meaning...are you romantic-ISTS ready for this
Wait, wait,
Paul; are you trying to pigeon-hole me for a "Romanticist"? Am I mistaking your statement here?
And actually, for that matter, I would find it easy to imagine people who enjoy the Romantic stylisms, finding Pettersson to their musical liking.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2008, 07:08:18 AM
And actually, for that matter, I would find it easy to imagine people who enjoy the Romantic stylisms, finding Pettersson to their musical liking.
Karl
If I correctly recall, you have great fondess for Tchaikovsky, and this somehow sticks sorethumbly in my mind. I knew you did the review of Levine's All Carter program in Boston 2 yrs ago, very well written I might add.
Romanticists, as i undersatnd that camp's mindset, taking to Pettersson? I don't quite see the connection. That requires quite a jump in the imagination. Possible, but unlikely.
here's a link to the Pettersson page over at amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/tag/classical%20music/forum/ref=cm_cd_et_up_redir?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdPage=1&cdSort=newest&cdThread=Tx23WLXVKEFYP4Z&newContentID=Mx1SPOC7QC9R4IE#MxSNZ2YG65CXNW
sorry for the longggg link, I still do not know how to place it in a condensed format. I'll delete the link ina few days.
Well, certainly I do like Tchaikovsky, Paul; and I am sorry this makes your thumb sore :-)
But liking Tchaikovsky is no obstacle to liking other music of an entirely different profile.
Listened to Pettersson 15 today for the first time ....... and I must say I'm extremely impressed. Sym. No. 15 seldom receives prominent mention ......... but it's a masterpiece .........
Quote from: paulb on January 14, 2008, 07:42:15 PMListening to Pettersson's sym 3. i love how Pettersson pays respects and hommage to his great mentor Sibelius, throughout the entire second movement, but especially at 5:50 and continues on this "variation on a theme by Sibelius" through the 7th minute. I'm busy looking where Pettersson draws that passage from in Sibelius.
Anyone know the section from Sibelius?. Anyone know?
I'm not into all Sibelius Symphonies, but recently listened a lot to his orchestral tone poems. The violin in Pettersson 3/2 at 7:00 very strongly reminds me of the
gorgeous godlike clarinet solo conclusion in the end of Sibelius' "En Saga". This can't only have been written by Sibelius hands, there must have been a god additionally. This clarinet is the center of the world for a short time! I'm getting really crazy whenever I listen to the final En Saga Minutes :)
Judge yourself --> [mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/En%20saga%20conclusion.mp3[/mp3]
You are nearly right.
When you see The Light, you know that the clarinet is always at the center of the universe ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2008, 08:01:30 AM
You are nearly right.
When you see The Light, you know that the clarinet is always at the center of the universe ;)
Karl, at the center of the universe is a massive blackhole that spins at the speed of light ......... a clarinet would not flourish under such conditions ........
It only seems a blackhole. Black is the Light of the Clarinet . . . .
And you know this from firsthand experience? ........ cool! ...........
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 16, 2008, 07:50:56 AM
I'm not into all Sibelius Symphonies, but recently listened a lot to his orchestral tone poems. The violin in Pettersson 3/2 at 7:00 very strongly reminds me of the gorgeous godlike clarinet solo conclusion in the end of Sibelius' "En Saga". This can't only have been written by Sibelius hands, there must have been a god additionally. This clarinet is the center of the world for a short time! I'm getting really crazy whenever I listen to the final En Saga Minutes :)
Wurstwasser, you're absolutely right. A really marvellous passage!
Quote from: Dm on January 16, 2008, 08:19:00 AM
And you know this from firsthand experience? ........ cool! ...........
Clarinets flourish under all conditions!
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2008, 10:11:09 AM
Clarinets flourish under all conditions!
You know Karl,
I smile when i read any enthusiastic comments about Sibelius, also recalling my younger days when Sibelius was so important in my listenings. hardly a day went by I did not hear from Sibelius.
Those days are gone, I've moved on. but will never forget the sense of importance Sibelius once held. Ahh how we grow old with the changes that come our way. But life moves on, we too must go with life.
Quote from: paulb on January 16, 2008, 11:28:04 AMThose days are gone, I've moved on. but will never forget the sense of importance Sibelius once held. Ahh how we grow old with the changes that come our way. But life moves on, we too must go with life.
Amen. Vice versa here, what I can say is: Those days are gone, I've moved on. but will never forget the sense of importance Pettersson once held. Ahh how we grow old with the changes that come our way. But life moves on, we too must go with life. Now I listen to Sibelius a lot.
How you 'grew out of' Sibelius, I may likely never know, Paul. Over decades, his music has remained fresh and vital for me.
For me so far, I have pretty much enjoyed the five or so Pettersson symphonies I've heard, and at some point I will be sure to listen to the rest, but his music has not had the compulsive force by me, which Sibelius's has always had (FWIW).
Hartmann has been more of a tug on my listening, than Pettersson (again, FWIW).
By all means, share your enthusiasm for Pettersson, Paul. Trashing Sibelius will show, not any supposed shortcomings on the part of that great composer, but only the boundaries of your own enthusiasms. Just saying.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 17, 2008, 04:05:01 AM
How you 'grew out of' Sibelius, I may likely never know, Paul. Over decades, his music has remained fresh and vital for me.
Hartmann has been more of a tug on my listening, than Pettersson (again, FWIW).
Just trying to break down the old crusty iconic thinking that so frequents these message boards.
Showing how one man's journey into CM reflects the changes he made on a inner psychological level.
Tough as one poster welcomed me back "tho Paul , i see you none the wiser" , refering to statements that might cause a bit ofa uproar. By sharing my experiences, i feel this may influence other newbies to also "think outside the box". The name Sibelius has been rigidly established within the CM cannon, and will suffer no harm from any personal innunendos.
The fact that Sibelius is a vital force in you life, and yet Pettersson you are 'just comming around to" shows how different we are all as individuals.
The muisc of Sibelius is further receding into my background. As the other day when revisiting my once loved Lemminakainen Legends, the music didn't strike the chords in me as once before.
Thats one of the few remaining works i once loved. Still do in some sense, but ever receding. That leaves only the Kullervo as my fav from Sibelius, and i fear revisiting not knowing what the work really means to me.
I suspect all the new music that has come my way in recent yrs has been the culprit in this sense of renewal.
Hartmann is germany's greatest symphonist, and one of the most important 20th C composers, on the level of Shostakovich. But this recognition will require some time, maybe decades+. Yet in time it will come.
Pettersson was scandanavia's greatest symphonist, which will also be established in due course.
man is asleep.
Paul
Quote from: paulb on January 17, 2008, 07:18:38 AM
Hartmann is germany's greatest symphonist,
Ah hell ....... He is the greatest symphonist in all of Europe ........ :D
It's funny - the late music critic Hugh Ottaway once asked himself: 'What kind of symphonism is this?' He was speaking about Havergal Brian, whose music sounds so natural and inevitable to me that the question wouldn't occur to me at all. But it does with Pettersson. I find his music baffling. I don't know why it moves the way it does. I can't figure out why he would use percussion in a given passage, or why not. I don't understand his structures, that sound extremely spontaneous and fluid. If you ask which symphony I'm talking about, I don't remember. I can hear a very original mind at work, but I don't know how to get in.
UNTIL yesterday that is (I hope). I followed a link from this thread to a YouTube clip of the ending of the Seventh. And I must say - I think I began to understand the logic of this music... Apart from the Seventh - any recommendations for further exploration (I see 5-9 mentioned a lot)?
(Btw I love Hartmann, especially symphonies 2-6. And Sibelius...)
Johan
Right, definitely don't see Pettersson and Sibelius as an either/or matter.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 17, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
It's funny - the late music critic Hugh Ottaway once asked himself: 'What kind of symphonism is this?' He was speaking about Havergal Brian, whose music sounds so natural and inevitable to me that the question wouldn't occur to me at all. But it does with Pettersson. I find his music baffling. I don't know why it moves the way it does. I can't figure out why he would use percussion in a given passage, or why not. I don't understand his structures, that sound extremely spontaneous and fluid. If you ask which symphony I'm talking about, I don't remember. I can hear a very original mind at work, but I don't know how to get in.
UNTIL yesterday that is (I hope). I followed a link from this thread to a YouTube clip of the ending of the Seventh. And I must say - I think I began to understand the logic of this music... Apart from the Seventh - any recommendations for further exploration (I see 5-9 mentioned a lot)?
(Btw I love Hartmann, especially symphonies 2-6. And Sibelius...)
Johan
Jez gald to know you know and appreciate the syms of Hartmann. Germany's greatest symphonist. Take pettersson is small doses, stay with the 6th and 7th. After some months go with the 8th and so forth. Will take you some yrs to work through the entire 6-15.
btw those who have the 12th CPO in the set, I so wish that you could experience the Caprice recording. Its on another level.
Doesn't have to be either/or with any 2 composers. But in the long run, in the end i know how the journey will go. At least to those who are of a certain disposition inwardly.
I'm introvert and thus inner values hold graeter importance. Maslows hiearchy of valuation comes in to play, there's readjustments made along the path of life.
http://www.amazon.com/tag/classical%20music/forum/ref=
scroll for Pettersson
Quote from: paulb on January 17, 2008, 08:28:09 AM
Take pettersson is small doses, stay with the 6th and 7th. After some months go with the 8th and so forth.
Separately, we seem to recall from your original thread in the old forum that Sidoze considered
Pettersson 9 to be Pettersson's most intense, and most rewarding symphony ......... Sidoze also directly compared 7 and 9 (IIRC), and deemed 9 to be his stand-out favorite.....
Quote from: Dm on January 17, 2008, 10:41:53 AM
Separately, we seem to recall from your original thread in the old forum that Sidoze considered Pettersson 9 to be Pettersson's most intense, and most rewarding symphony ......... Sidoze also directly compared 7 and 9 (IIRC), and deemed 9 to be his stand-out favorite.....
Once one becomes more familar with the syms 6-15 ( I have recently included the choral 12th as part of the cycle, due to the overwhelming power that matches the other syms, though has to be the Caprice to hear the full emotional force of the work), then the 9th doesn't stand out anymore than the 7th or 8th.
The liner notes in the CPO or BIS, can't recall, mention the 7,8,9 as the core of the group.
One would have to read the biography on Pettersson to get more insight into the symphoines as beinga constructive , intergrative whole, with each sym as part of the cycle.
Here's the syms structure in movements:
6th : 1
7th: 1
8th: 2
9th: 1 (17 measures with no breaks)
10th: 1
11th; 1
12th: 1
13th: 1
14th: 1
15th: 1
I was unaware of just how few, << only the 8th has 2, but there is not much ofa break in the 2 movements, the 8th is basicallya continuous whole>>> mutli movement syms were in the cycle, untli just now posting.
This display of the cycles movements seems to concur with my idea as being parts to a greater whole. This idea became more apparent as the characterization of each sym seemed to strike chords from the one before and after. There is some sort of progression, and the 11th seems to be the interlude, like an axis of the middle of the cycle.
6,7,8,9 ,10. then 12,13,14,15.
Thats 4 syms on each side the 11th. So there may be something to this 11th as being the midway point. The 11th does not possess that striking sharp markings as in all the others. it sounds as if this is a resting place.
I love the music of Pettersson (Violin Concerto 2 and symphs 6-8 in particular) but Sibelius was and is the only composer whose music I can listen to, regardless of the mood I am in. Probably Tapiola is my favourite work but I have been listening a lot to Symphony No 2 recently. I hardly listened to it before, as I focused more on nos 3-7 but it has really grown on me, especially the wonderfully inspiriting ending.
Thanks paulb, Dm and vandermolen for your remarks. I think I'll begin my exploration of Pettersson with his Sixth, and go very slowly through the following symphonies. I will certainly report back.
Paulb: your remarks about introversion vs. Sibelius are interesting. Yes, there is a public, nationalist side to Sibelius, the ending of the Second Symphony is a case in point. Simon Vestdijk, a Dutch author who wrote a study about Sibelius, called that final movement 'a speech by a tribune'. Sibelius also has a feeling for mythology and an intense rapport with Nature. Now you could see this triad - Finnish myth, society and nature - as external things impinging upon consciousness. And in this way of thinking Pettersson is of course the perfect opposite of Sibelius: he seems to express his inner being rawly and emotionally. You really could say, from what I have heard of it, his music is Expressionist. But still - I would suggest that Sibelius too expresses himself as intimately and personally, but often with musical imagery taken from the external world. Although a work like the Fourth Symphony, to me, is as harrowing and searching as any by Pettersson (a claim I can't yet back up, of course, and simply based on my earliest impressions; but we'll see...)
I'm sorry you lost your Sibelian antennae. For me change means becoming larger, more encompassing. Like I'm now trying to 'get into' Pettersson. I simply accord a composer I don't need to listen to on a daily basis anymore a different place in a wider space.
Johan
Quote from: Jezetha on January 17, 2008, 02:33:10 PM
Thanks paulb, Dm and vandermolen for your remarks. I think I'll begin my exploration of Pettersson with his Sixth, and go very slowly through the following symphonies. I will certainly report back.
Paulb: your remarks about introversion vs. Sibelius are interesting. Yes, there is a public, nationalist side to Sibelius, the ending of the Second Symphony is a case in point. Simon Vestdijk, a Dutch author who wrote a study about Sibelius, called that final movement 'a speech by a tribune'. Sibelius also has a feeling for mythology and an intense rapport with Nature. Now you could see this triad - Finnish myth, society and nature - as external things impinging upon consciousness. And in this way of thinking Pettersson is of course the perfect opposite of Sibelius: he seems to express his inner being rawly and emotionally. You really could say, from what I have heard of it, his music is Expressionist. But still - I would suggest that Sibelius too expresses himself as intimately and personally, but often with musical imagery taken from the external world. Although a work like the Fourth Symphony, to me, is as harrowing and searching as any by Pettersson (a claim I can't yet back up, of course, and simply based on my earliest impressions; but we'll see...)
I'm sorry you lost your Sibelian antennae. For me change means becoming larger, more encompassing. Like I'm now trying to 'get into' Pettersson. I simply accord a composer I don't need to listen to on a daily basis anymore a different place in a wider space.
Johan
Johan
Give pettersson some space and time. It made take decades before the music strikes you deeply.
It took me 20 yrs to find Pettersson. though back in 1985 there were only a few LP's , the 7th and 8th and even then i was not ready on a psychological basis to receive the content of the music. You realzie some composers are simple to grasp, others require patience and effort.
I intentional make the sacrifice of Sibelius , so as to better absorb other compoers I hold a much greater interest. Its a personal decision. I may revist several Sibelius works over the yrs, but not so frequent as in my early yrs.
Now I heard the 5th sym , CPO and madea deeper impact on me that the BIS. So I am now officially including the 5th as the opening of the cycle.
does anyone know know how I can upload the scan of a document like the notes i scanned off the sym 5/CPO?
I want to insert them in Image but do not know the process.
Or if anyone can scan the notes of the 5th and post it, I'd appreciate it.
The author says the 5-9 are part of a "block" of symphonic material.
I read that AFTER i determined the 5th belongs in the cycle.
Goes to show how in touch I am with pettersson's music.
Sibelius is more of a historic element, Pettersson has the breath of life.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 17, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
It's funny - the late music critic Hugh Ottaway once asked himself: 'What kind of symphonism is this?' He was speaking about Havergal Brian, whose music sounds so natural and inevitable to me that the question wouldn't occur to me at all. But it does with Pettersson. I find his music baffling. I don't know why it moves the way it does. I can't figure out why he would use percussion in a given passage, or why not. I don't understand his structures, that sound extremely spontaneous and fluid. If you ask which symphony I'm talking about, I don't remember. I can hear a very original mind at work, but I don't know how to get in.
UNTIL yesterday that is (I hope). I followed a link from this thread to a YouTube clip of the ending of the Seventh. And I must say - I think I began to understand the logic of this music... Apart from the Seventh - any recommendations for further exploration (I see 5-9 mentioned a lot)?
(Btw I love Hartmann, especially symphonies 2-6. And Sibelius...)
Johan
With the 7th in particular, the development of the music is very organic, as opposed to architectural. Segments or sections grow and branch out from the germs planted earlier, and with repeated listening, you'll hear how Pettersson will drop a casual hint of things to come, like someone tossing a seed on the ground. Later you find it's grown into a majestic tree. The 8th is similar in this regard.
Re: introversion, I also hear Pettersson as probably the most intensely inward, private, personal, and emotionally raw composer I've encountered. It's more like you're eavesdropping on a man muttering his darkest inmost secrets to himself versus an artist consciously creating a work for public consumption, evaluation, and entertainment.
Quote from: Grazioso on January 18, 2008, 05:04:44 AM
With the 7th in particular, the development of the music is very organic, as opposed to architectural. Segments or sections grow and branch out from the germs planted earlier, and with repeated listening, you'll hear how Pettersson will drop a casual hint of things to come, like someone tossing a seed on the ground. Later you find it's grown into a majestic tree. The 8th is similar in this regard.
Re: introversion, I also hear Pettersson as probably the most intensely inward, private, personal, and emotionally raw composer I've encountered. It's more like you're eavesdropping on a man muttering his darkest inmost secrets to himself versus an artist consciously creating a work for public consumption, evaluation, and entertainment.
In an earlier version of my post I called Petterssons's music 'stream of consciousness'. Which isn't much different from how you characterise it, Grazioso. I think I'll start with the 7th, seeing I found the ending quite fascinating.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 18, 2008, 05:09:24 AM
In an earlier version of my post I called Petterssons's music 'stream of consciousness'. Which isn't much different from how you characterise it, Grazioso. I think I'll start with the 7th, seeing I found the ending quite fascinating.
To me, the 7th is one of the towering monuments of the symphonic literature, fully worthy of ranking beside the masterpieces of Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich, etc. Almost the whole symphony is available on Youtube, btw, in multiple segments. There are at least 2 CD recordings of it in print, on BIS and CPO.
I would perhaps use "stream of consciousness" to describe some of Pettersson's other symphonies I've heard, which can sound like extended violent outbursts. I don't mean either description as derogatory, though, and it's certainly possible I just haven't heard all the hidden connections of, say, the 10th.
I wouldn't apply that term to the 7th, though, as there is clear form and development and recapitulation of ideas, just in a different manner from more "typical" symphonic works.
Stream of consciousness? I do not think so but can understand why that may appear to be so.
Pettersson is a master symphonist and repeat listening will reveal a very clever structure to each work.
Personally, after all the doom, gloom and pain I think his symphonies end in hope.
I know I may be in a minority of one in thinking that but that is what I hear. If Pettersson had no hope then he might as well have gone out and done what many of his countrymen are accused, wrongly, of doing and commit suicide.
Also, he was a great composer of tunes!
If you want stream of consciousness try some of the current composers that inhabit the Baltic States and Silvestrov!
The 7th is a good place to start. That's where I started but do not expect an easy ride.
Quote from: Hector on January 18, 2008, 06:14:34 AM
Stream of consciousness? I do not think so but can understand why that may appear to be so.
Pettersson is a master symphonist and repeat listening will reveal a very clever structure to each work.
The 7th is a good place to start. That's where I started but do not expect an easy ride.
I used the term 'stream of consciousness' in no derogatory sense, but simply to describe the way the music comes across to someone not used to this way of structuring. The 7th will be my first real try at 'cracking' P. I have two recordings - Dorati and Segerstam. I'll listen to both.
Btw, I'm not the kind of man much interested in 'easy rides'... ;)
Here's a random question.
I've heard seven of the symphonies (have 3, 4 and 13 on cpo; 7, 8, 10 and 11 on BIS).
8 and 10 are really the only ones that draw me back, perhaps because there's more defiance in them than elsewhere? 3 and 4 seem a bit immature to me; 13 I can't get into at all; 7 and 11 seem a bit flat (though maybe that's the Segerstam recording).
I might consider another single Pettersson recording to see if I can replicate my experience with 8 and 10 (works I do think highly of). Any suggestions?
Quote from: Jezetha on January 18, 2008, 06:23:09 AM
Btw, I'm not the kind of man much interested in 'easy rides'... ;)
I think the
Seventh was the first to which I had listened. FWIW, I did not find it at all a 'bumpy ride'.
I am reading all this with interest, though I have yet to dig back into
Pettersson.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 17, 2008, 01:50:48 PM
I love the music of Pettersson (Violin Concerto 2 and symphs 6-8 in particular) but Sibelius was and is the only composer whose music I can listen to, regardless of the mood I am in. Probably Tapiola is my favourite work but I have been listening a lot to Symphony No 2 recently. I hardly listened to it before, as I focused more on nos 3-7 but it has really grown on me, especially the wonderfully inspiriting ending.
Pettersson's 6th Symphony is a great place to start. It is a very moving and powerful work: "the long struggle towards the sunrise" as one writer put it. I wish that Sony would issue my old CBS LP version on CD conducted by Okko Kamu, I think that it is a better performance than the (very good) one on CPO.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 08:40:39 AM
Pettersson's 6th Symphony is a great place to start. It is a very moving and powerful work: "the long struggle towards the sunrise" as one writer put it. I wish that Sony would issue my old CBS LP version on CD conducted by Okko Kamu, I think that it is a better performance than the (very good) one on CPO.
Not to mention the 8th by Comissiona/Baltimore on Polar, have it on LP but miss it on CD (am listening to the Sergerstam 8th on BIS now). I have the Kamu on LP as well.
Quote from: edward on January 18, 2008, 08:08:39 AM
Here's a random question.
I've heard seven of the symphonies (have 3, 4 and 13 on cpo; 7, 8, 10 and 11 on BIS).
8 and 10 are really the only ones that draw me back, perhaps because there's more defiance in them than elsewhere? 3 and 4 seem a bit immature to me; 13 I can't get into at all; 7 and 11 seem a bit flat (though maybe that's the Segerstam recording).
I might consider another single Pettersson recording to see if I can replicate my experience with 8 and 10 (works I do think highly of). Any suggestions?
Symphony No.7, Stockholm Philharmonic conducted by Antal Dorati. I haven't heard the Segerstam recording, but Dorati's is a more vivid and engaging performance than the CPO, good as that seems to be.
Quote from: erato on January 18, 2008, 08:50:57 AM
Not to mention the 8th by Comissiona/Baltimore on Polar, have it on LP but miss it on CD (am listening to the Sergerstam 8th on BIS now). I have the Kamu on LP as well.
I have the Comissiona Baltimore Symphony 8 on DGG. A surprising release from DGG in the LP days. It's a great performance I agree.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 11:59:49 AM
I have the Comissiona Baltimore Symphony 8 on DGG. A surprising release from DGG in the LP days. It's a great performance I agree.
It was originally recorded and released on Polar,the Swedish label run by Stickan Andersson, the manager of Abba, and also the source of Abba releases. His way of making atonement...he got some Swedish cultural prize for it as well.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 11:59:49 AM
I have the Comissiona Baltimore Symphony 8 on DGG. A surprising release from DGG in the LP days. It's a great performance I agree.
Possibe.
But I have to say I found both the CPO and BIS 7th's more to my liking of the work. and the CPO 14 th i prefered slightly more than the Comissiona's 14th.
The Dorati 7th I found to a "dud". Hated the thing.
Stream of consciousness may not be a bad phrase to describe Pettersson as the muisc is quite alive, if only you can tap into that straem. many cannot. Its not a stream as in tranquil like a mountain spring, but like the roar of a lion. many hear pettersson and know there's something he's saying, but just what is the ideas, few can figure out.
but there is definetly a message there.
You know god is not limited by written documents like the bible. He can still speak in whatever form or message, if he so decides.
i bet you've been asked this is a million times before, but do you have a favorite Pettersson symphony, Paul?
Quote from: paulb on January 18, 2008, 03:24:23 PM
Possibe.
But I have to say I found both the CPO and BIS 7th's more to my liking of the work. and the CPO 14 th i prefered slightly more than the Comissiona's 14th.
The Dorati 7th I found to a "dud". Hated the thing.
Stream of consciousness may not be a bad phrase to describe Pettersson as the muisc is quite alive, if only you can tap into that straem. many cannot. Its not a stream as in tranquil like a mountain spring, but like the roar of a lion. many hear pettersson and know there's something he's saying, but just what is the ideas, few can figure out.
but there is definetly a message there.
You know god is not limited by written documents like the bible. He can still speak in whatever form or message, if he so decides.
V thought-provoking message; thank you. I am biased towards Dorati's Decca No 7 as it was my introduction to Pettersson in the LP era.
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 18, 2008, 03:26:07 PM
i bet you've been asked this is a million times before, but do you have a favorite Pettersson symphony, Paul?
No one has asked me, though that is a topical question frequently petitioned on just about every major symphonist composer. So it stands to reason , "why not for Pettersson?"
I would have to say the 7th striks me most powerfully , it has that central core resolution which does its best to reconcile and calm the former tumulutous stormings. I think the 7th will be chosen as the one sym some US conductor decides "its time for Pettersson in the US concert halls". The audience will be in for one big surprise of the emotional nature of the sym. Many concert goers have yet to even hear the composers name.
But then that 7,8,9 'trinity' are all somehow conjoined. Honestly i'm more leaning to the idea of the 6-15 as one symphonic cycle. There's this inner cohesiveness that ties one to the other.
I am trying to get someone to translate the poem by pablo Neruda used in the 12th sym. may be some some weeks.
I wish one day the Caprice re-releases the 12th, so that all get to hear its raw emotional power.
Quote from: paulb on January 18, 2008, 04:20:34 PM
No one has asked me, though that is a topical question frequently petitioned on just about every major symphonist composer. So it stands to reason , "why not for Pettersson?"
I would have to say the 7th striks me most powerfully , it has that central core resolution which does its best to reconcile and calm the former tumulutous stormings. I think the 7th will be chosen as the one sym some US conductor decides "its time for Pettersson in the US concert halls". The audience will be in for one big surprise of the emotional nature of the sym. Many concert goers have yet to even hear the composers name.
But then that 7,8,9 'trinity' are all somehow conjoined. Honestly i'm more leaning to the idea of the 6-15 as one symphonic cycle. There's this inner cohesiveness that ties one to the other.
I am trying to get someone to translate the poem by pablo Neruda used in the 12th sym. may be some some weeks.
I wish one day the Caprice re-releases the 12th, so that all get to hear its raw emotional power.
i've only revisited about 4 or 5 of his symphonies (the last few weeks), and my favorite out of those might be the 8th...... but really, it's hard to say when there's 15 and you've only heard a few more than once ;D
but the emotional honesty is definetely one of my favorite things about him....
maybe he'll end up like Mahler, not played much for awhile and then rediscovered and very popular? :)
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 18, 2008, 05:10:53 PM
i've only revisited about 4 or 5 of his symphonies (the last few weeks), and my favorite out of those might be the 8th...... but really, it's hard to say when there's 15 and you've only heard a few more than once ;D
but the emotional honesty is definetely one of my favorite things about him....
maybe he'll end up like Mahler, not played much for awhile and then rediscovered and very popular? :)
I just came back to the computer after hearing the 7th and now on to the 8th as its playing in the background.
i wanted to say one of my all time favorite places in Pettersson is the 8th, First Part, starting right at 9:50, athen going on for a few minutes.
Anyone care to share their impressions of this section, loved to hear it.
Then around the 15 minute mark things really get 'helter skelter", whirlwind of horrors.
I need to go back to the original thread and see what my friend wrote on the 8th...ahh I just tried and its locked out. I'm not sure he's part of the forum anymore.
Anyway, Mahler fans are most certainly welcome on the Pettersson forum ;)
It will take some young new conductors to come on the podiums to bring forth works of Hartmann, Schnittke, Pettersson, Carter. Young conductors that wield a baton of iron and won't take no sh*t from any board of regents, as to what to perform and not.
We need some conductors to come along that got nerves like ol Reiner.
Germany has performed the most Pettersson to date, Sweden next. I read that somewhere before.
I think the swedes are just now waking up to Pettersson, there's a new P Society page from Sweden. . Just as america is waking up to Elliott Carter.
Not sure if germany has acknowledge her finest symphonist in the concert halls, KA Hartmann.
Certain aspects of CM is still in its infancy stages in regards to 20th C composers.
Quote from: paulb on January 18, 2008, 06:10:12 PM
i wanted to say one of my all time favorite places in Pettersson is the 8th, First Part, starting right at 9:50, athen going on for a few minutes.
Anyone care to share their impressions of this section, loved to hear it.
Then around the 15 minute mark things really get 'helter skelter", whirlwind of horrors.
I've listened to the Cimissiona Lp of this work many times. Mezmerizing.
Quote from: Hector on January 18, 2008, 06:14:34 AMPersonally, after all the doom, gloom and pain I think his symphonies end in hope.
#6? It ends in pain and sorrow. Fortunately! I really admire the #9 last minutes, what a pain, what a lament, but I really hate the very ending, this idea of hope... which is kind of clownish, like a tribute to his critics.
BTW, my favourite is No.6, my choice of Pettersson Symphonies narrows down 6-9.
With Symphony No. 6 (cpo), people should listen to 34:00 or better 37:30. And the end, somewhere after 57:30. Then you know, not having known Pettersson #6 is a wasted life.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 08:40:39 AM"the long struggle towards the sunrise" as one writer put it.
Really?
My idea of the symphony honestly is "the long struggle towards the sundown".
I think that No 6 ends with a sense of (very) hard won triumph, so I think that "sunrise" is appropriate. But, as with all great music (and it is great) it is open to different interpretations.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 19, 2008, 01:27:38 AMI think that No 6 ends with a sense of (very) hard won triumph, so I think that "sunrise" is appropriate. But, as with all great music (and it is great) it is open to different interpretations.
To me it's "teh saddest part evar!!!11", sun going down, funeralistic...
So, tadaaaa! People, time to listen to this great ending of a great piece of music and time to judge by yourself! Have fun!
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/pettersson6ending.mp3[/mp3]
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 19, 2008, 04:35:54 AM
To me it's "teh saddest part evar!!!11", sun going down, funeralistic... Have fun
Just listened to it. "Have fun"!? Taken out of context, judged purely on its own, the music sounds very disconsolate, funereal and sombre - to use only three adjectives... No sunshine in sight. If this is a ray of light, how dark is the rest?!
So, on this one, I am with you, Wurstwasser.
Johan
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2008, 05:07:21 AM
Just listened to it. "Have fun"!? Taken out of context, judged purely on its own, the music sounds very disconsolate, funereal and sombre - to use only three adjectives... No sunshine in sight. If this is a ray of light, how dark is the rest?!
So, on this one, I am with you, Wurstwasser.
Johan
I didn't mean the very end but the section just before the end which (to me at least) suggests some kind of hard won triumph against the odds...it is hardly the end of Nielsen's 4th I agree, but the snare drum is now in the background as the beautiful theme asserts itself, as if climbing upwards (towards the sunrise ;D)
Quote from: vandermolen on January 19, 2008, 07:52:07 AM
I didn't mean the very end but the section just before the end which (to me at least) suggests some kind of hard won triumph against the odds...it is hardly the end of Nielsen's 4th I agree, but the snare drum is now in the background as the beautiful theme asserts itself, as if climbing upwards (towards the sunrise ;D)
You confirm what I already thought whilst listening - that the 'lift' and a sort of breakthrough of light had occurred moments earlier.
I listened to the Seventh Symphony this afternoon. What did I hear, what struck me? The alternation of darkness and light - very murky and depressed music vs. bleakly radiant lyricism. There are a few recurrent elements with which Pettersson build his whole fluid edifice: a rising phrase, a descending one, a syncopated brass motif. You glide through a succession of soundscapes. There is an enormous tension there, and you never know what you will see when you turn another corner. The orchestral sound is not massive, but very spare. Also - the music is very horizontal, very linear, no complex interweaving of ideas. I see the music as a thin line, stretched to breaking-point. The climaxes are intimidating and uncomfortable - not triumphant, more aggression born out of powerlessness.
The next symphony I'll be listening to - the Sixth, to check the light ;)
I don't love this music, yet. But Pettersson's lyricism is moving and pure. And a necessary relief.
Johan
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2008, 08:19:40 AMThe next symphony I'll be listening to - the Sixth, to check the light ;)
Congratulations, you'll especially listen to the most soulful compositions in musical history. You'll be hopefully very impressed with 37:30 ff (cpo release) ....'nuff said. The whole work is a gem.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2008, 08:19:40 AM
You confirm what I already thought whilst listening - that the 'lift' and a sort of breakthrough of light had occurred moments earlier.
I listened to the Seventh Symphony this afternoon. What did I hear, what struck me? The alternation of darkness and light - very murky and depressed music vs. bleakly radiant lyricism. There are a few recurrent elements with which Pettersson build his whole fluid edifice: a rising phrase, a descending one, a syncopated brass motif. You glide through a succession of soundscapes. There is an enormous tension there, and you never know what you will see when you turn another corner. The orchestral sound is not massive, but very spare. Also - the music is very horizontal, very linear, no complex interweaving of ideas. I see the music as a thin line, stretched to breaking-point. The climaxes are intimidating and uncomfortable - not triumphant, more aggression born out of powerlessness.
The next symphony I'll be listening to - the Sixth, to check the light ;)
I don't love this music, yet. But Pettersson's lyricism is moving and pure. And a necessary relief.
Johan
Well expressed comments.
The 7th seems to be the sym that most come to discover Pettersson. But don't expect to have moments like the resolution in the middle of the 7th in other syms. Its not there. Not sure if anyone can say they love pettersson. He is not writing to win popular vote.
Not sure what you mean by lack of complex ideas.
Sure pettersson has one main motif that seems to shine through all his syms, some sort of struggle and challenge. Pettersson apparently knows something very deep, but its up to the listener to figure out what his message is.
i know, but will not say.
Just heard most of the 6th , and had to run out for an errand.
i'm back and its now in the first half.
Seems Wurst has been struck deeply with the 6th ,and I have to admit the 6th is one of the darkest most powerful of the syms to strike me as well.
Seems as though anyone can get through the 5th with no shocks to the mind.
the 6th is like a passage way, if you can make it past the 6th, then you can easily make it through the others.
Had i not been around Sibelius for some 2 decades , its doubtful I would have taken to Pettersson like I did. Pettersson came to me at a turning point in my life journey, at age 46. He hreatly helped my life by giving me comfort in some intense inner struggles.
Pettersson's syms are unlike any other symphonist.
Mahler and Pettersson have slight similarities, but are quite opposed in structure. Mahler takes a very long time to get his idea across, Pettersson strikes chords right at the first notes. You know what you are in for at the first notes. Closest in character and style are Hartmann, who i need to get more familar with, and Schnittke. I think Shostakovich had influences on all 3 composers with the ground breaking 5th sym/1937.
Quote from: paulb on January 19, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Not sure what you mean by lack of complex ideas.
Pettersson came to me at a turning point in my life journey, at age 46.
I didn't write 'lack of complex ideas', Paul, but 'no complex
interweaving of ideas', by which I mean polyphony, density, several things going on at the same time.
I'm 46, a turning-point of sorts may be looming (finishing a first novel, and the subsequent publication). We'll see whether Pettersson will play as big a role in my life as he very clearly does in yours...
Johan
P.S. The Sixth will be my Pettersson fare tonight. I have the Trojahn and the Kamu. Any preference?
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2008, 10:30:29 AM
I didn't write 'lack of complex ideas', Paul, but 'no complex interweaving of ideas', by which I mean polyphony, density, several things going on at the same time.
I'm 46, a turning-point of sorts may be looming (finishing a first novel, and the subsequent publication). We'll see whether Pettersson will play as big a role in my life as he very clearly does in yours...
Johan
P.S. The Sixth will be my Pettersson fare tonight. I have the Trojahn and the Kamu. Any preference?
Yes i see what you mean. Pettersson seems to have one main idae that is reflected in all his 6-15 syms.
The 12th with the poem may help understand what Pettersson is trying to say, if you fail to understand his messages.
I have someone working on a english translation now.
may bea few weeks yet.
I'll try to get a copy posted here. But i need to know how to load an image from my computer's scan files.
Do I need to subscribe to a outside source in order to load?
The 6th offers no rays of sunlight, its bleak all the way through.
The Kamu is on LP , yes?
The Trojahn is exceptional. I fail to understand why Segerstam did not go on to record the 6th, he would have offered us another excellent option fora 6th.
I'm not complaining, just like to have at least 2 copies of each sym.
Segerstam instead of finishing the Pettersson cycle went on to record yet another Sibelius cycle, his 2nd, for whatever reason i do not know.
I heard his health as not all that strong, I'd love to see him finsih the cycle wth BIS. His 8th I slightly prefer over the CPO excellent 8th. has the 10th also, but slightly prefer the CPO. "slight" meaning there are a few passages which pull me in favor of one over the other.
Quote from: paulb on January 19, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Pettersson came to me at a turning point in my life journey, at age 46. He hreatly helped my life by giving me comfort in some intense inner struggles.
The same here. I think Shostakovich had a greater influence at me, but probably because I own cd´s with most of his music, and have only heard Pettersson from the library cd´s. But I think Pettersson is the absolutely most helpful therapy for depression.
Quote from: mikkeljs on January 19, 2008, 12:18:38 PM
The same here. I think Shostakovich had a greater influence at me, but probably because I own cd´s with most of his music, and have only heard Pettersson from the library cd´s. But I think Pettersson is the absolutely most helpful therapy for depression.
Yes, I think its fair to use the common day fair, "depression", as its just about epidemic in late 20th C big city society.
The one thing Pettersson and I have in common is the "bad father",... "dead -beat" would be putting it too kindly. But there's more to him that i find also in sympathy in my
weltanschauung, meaning outlook/understanding on life.
In Pettersson I really found that specific voice that gives meaning. expression to things hidden deep within me , all these yrs.
Quote from: paulb on January 18, 2008, 06:10:12 PM
It will take some young new conductors to come on the podiums to bring forth works of Hartmann, Schnittke, Pettersson, Carter. Young conductors that wield a baton of iron and won't take no sh*t from any board of regents, as to what to perform and not.
hell yeah 8)
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 19, 2008, 01:05:40 PM
hell yeah 8)
I'm really fishing deep-sea here.
Hoping we've got a few up-N-comming conductors who peek in from time-to-time, and that actually take an interest in what the distinguished GMG avant garde members have to say about late 20th C music in regard to "programmed-programming" in the concert halls...BLAH >:D. And along with you say 'hell yeah" too. ;D
Like planting a seed and watching it grow.
There's this old ancient idea that whatever is made in written, even spoken word, has some affect on the world beyond the speaker's limited horizon.
like C Columbus saying "we will find The New World" and look at what happened.
Just listened to the Sixth under Okko Kamu, an LP rip I found on Usenet two years ago.
This symphony seems to end where the Seventh starts - there is, throughout the Sixth, that same 'syncopated brass motif' I mentioned earlier. My remark about that work - that it has no 'complex interweaving of ideas' - does not apply to this one: the Sixth is very layered. I find its structure more compelling than that of the Seventh (mind you - these are my first impressions!) The opening is wonderful. Those passionately singing strings are a returning and very appealing feature of the Sixth. But there is also something titanic, granitic about this symphony. You have the sense of an enormous struggle. Some passages have a frightening intensity. I agree with Vandermolen about the 'hard-won triumph' - there are several passages of great nobility that really give you the feeling of Pettersson attaining some kind of tranquility or acceptance. I found listening to the Sixth satisfying in a very deep sense but because of this also quite draining. Not something I want every day.
All in all - a really great work.
I'm starting to get my Petterssonian bearings.
Johan
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2008, 01:58:52 PM
Just listened to the Sixth under Okko Kamu, an LP rip I found on Usenet two years ago.
This symphony seems to end where the Seventh starts - there is, throughout the Sixth, that same 'syncopated brass motif' I mentioned earlier. My remark about that work - that it has no 'complex interweaving of ideas' - does not apply to this one: the Sixth is very layered. I find its structure more compelling than that of the Seventh (mind you - these are my first impressions!) The opening is wonderful. Those passionately singing strings are a returning and very appealing feature of the Sixth. But there is also something titanic, granitic about this symphony. You have the sense of an enormous struggle. Some passages have a frightening intensity. I agree with Vandermolen about the 'hard-won triumph' - there are several passages of great nobility that really give you the feeling of Pettersson attaining some kind of tranquility or acceptance. I found listening to the Sixth satisfying in a very deep sense but because of this also quite draining. Not something I want every day.
All in all - a really great work.
I'm starting to get my Petterssonian bearings.
Johan
Johan , excellent comments and insights to the nature of the work.
The 6th is the darkest of the all. So you've made it..
The 8th is no "piece of cake' but has moments of positive hope.
You are the kind of listener that should hear the 12th Caprice and not the less effective chorus of the CPO.
But the used copies go for $30, worth it IMHO.
If i were on better times and the ask was double, I'd snap it up. I'm glad i did all my Pettersson research/collecting yrs ago when i had spare $'s. cant recall what i paid, like $35 ,4 or 5 yrs ago.
when i get into a composer i really like, I go deep into research and money is no object for OOP essentials.
I buy few cds now-a-days, the hard work is all behind me.
Quote from: paulb on January 19, 2008, 02:27:56 PM
Johan , excellent comments and insights to the nature of the work.
The 6th is the darkest of the all. So you've made it..
The 8th is no "piece of cake' but has moments of positive hope.
You are the kind of listener that should hear the 12th Caprice and not the less effective chorus of the CPO.
But the used copies go for $30, worth it IMHO.
If i were on better times and the ask was double, I'd snap it up. I'm glad i did all my Pettersson research/collecting yrs ago when i had spare $'s. cant recall what i paid, like $35 ,4 or 5 yrs ago.
when i get into a composer i really like, I go deep into research and money is no object for OOP essentials.
I buy few cds now-a-days, the hard work is all behind me.
Paul - I
have the Caprice 12th... I was very lucky that a few posters in a Usenet newsgroup uploaded most of Pettersson's music two years ago (downloading for personal use is allowed in the Netherlands). I discovered Pettersson 20 years ago through a book, called 'Opus est', by Paul Rappoport, a music critic for Fanfare (and a great Brian scholar). 'Opus est' discussed 6 symphonists from Northern Europe, one of which was Allan Pettersson. I always remembered this, and as I have an open mind I snapped up all the Pettersson I could get from Usenet. But as I said a few posts earlier, I didn't 'get' Pettersson. Through you and other members of this great Forum I have finally started to crack the code.
Quote from: paulb on January 19, 2008, 01:13:42 PM
like C Columbus saying "we will find The New World" and look at what happened.
interesting.... and to that i might add that even one's own thoughts can affect one's own future actions, which affects others. In relation to music, you can write a piece of music, throw it away and it'll be forgotten for eternity, but you can then right something else and it may be indirectly influenced by that previous trashed work (because of the thought process that goes on when composing)- then the new work may affect a listener- even if you thought the music you threw away was just a waste of time ;D
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2008, 02:39:23 PM
Paul - I have the Caprice 12th... I was very lucky that a few posters in a Usenet newsgroup uploaded most of Pettersson's music two years ago (downloading for personal use is allowed in the Netherlands). I discovered Pettersson 20 years ago through a book, called 'Opus est', by Paul Rappoport, a music critic for Fanfare (and a great Brian scholar). 'Opus est' discussed 6 symphonists from Northern Europe, one of which was Allan Pettersson. I always remembered this, and as I have an open mind I snapped up all the Pettersson I could get from Usenet. But as I said a few posts earlier, I didn't 'get' Pettersson. Through you and other members of this great Forum I have finally started to crack the code.
Very enlightening story. Thanks for sharing. i'm logging in all the notes as to how folks cmae around to Pettersson. interesting. You came to P somewhat like i did. Short story on that later.
So you do have the 12th. i think you are much more capable of giving a more musical descriptive approach to your review that i ever could in the Caprice and CPO.
Sice i know you have no intentions of obtaining the CPO , I will have to order it and promptly mail to your address.
This way we can all claer up this question, "does the 12th belong in the cycle or not?"
The CPO may not offer the angst which is so much apart of the 6-15. The 12th has this character of struggle, suffering, resistene to something much greater than oneself. something to overcome, which is somewhat the main themes flowing throughout the syms.
Give me a few weeks, and i'll get it to you
For some reason I wanted to keep the 12th separate from the group of "pure orchestrated syms', but there's no reasons to do so. The high emotional content and exquisite scoring for chorus and orchestra, draws a conclusion that the 12th is part of this high creative movement going on within Pettersson's mind.
Your review/comparison of the 2 will offer a more convincing opinion that i ever could.
Paul, don't order! I have the CPO too... And I will review both performances when I reach No 12... The Tenth and Fifteenth I'll have to download from eclassical. But that's cheap.
Thanks for your compliments. And for your kind offer!
Btw - my reading of PR's book dates from around 1980, so it's almost 30 years ago, not 20...
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2008, 04:03:22 PM
Paul, don't order! I have the CPO too... And I will review both performances when I reach No 12... The Tenth and Fifteenth I'll have to download from eclassical. But that's cheap.
Thanks for your compliments. And for your kind offer!
Btw - my reading of PR's book dates from around 1980, so it's almost 30 years ago, not 20...
Great! You do have both. I have only heard clips of the CPO 12th, so nothing substantial in ways of solid comment,
Right Karl ;) , and yes i've kicked the old clip habit many moons ago. Only reason being my collection is near complete. ;D
WOW 30 yrs ago, you heard the name Pettersson, but as you say 'mere chance". But is life just "mere" chances?
I'll have to tell one day how I came by slim chance upon Pettersson way back on the old CMG forum.
25 yrs ago, I use to flip page after page of the Schwann's complete listings catalogue, the one like 6 inches thick,,,,my mind would race with the thought...."now i know there is some few composers in here that i really ought to know,,,but how to find the needle in the haystack?"....fast forward to 2000 and came upon Pettersson and Schnittke.
Keep in mind back in 1979, there may have only been 3 or 4 listings of Pettersson and a few Schnittke for that matter. made the quest an impossibility. unless like you with the book you got ahold of.
Beethoven had like 50 or so pages!
I should mention this story of how Lenny at Tulane's copy of The Complete Listing Of All C Composers, had like 500 or so in the P section...as we walked over to that book together i said 'yeah he's really not too known, a real hidden composer, off the main street"....Lenny is busy looking at P, Pe, Pet, Pett..."Hey there's no listing for Pettersson".
I think Lenny was convinced on the "unknown" as it applies to Pettersson's status among composers.
Bring out the 12th near the end of your listening cycle. If your opinion differs too much from my hunch, I'll have to order it myself and make a comment.
I think the Caprice 12th deserves the effort of comparing, and worth my efforts due to the depth of the score which has to expressed in a recording, not to be missed.
Jezetha, I like the Trojahn/CPO release of #6 much more, but good you started... :)
Yes, I listened to Sym. No. 6 about ten million times in 2005-2006...As often as I could afford it. It's catching from the very beginning. The simple and dark theme in the beginning (and later in the symphony) ... great.
Here's another teaser for Pettersson Symphony No.6.
I'd say it's the central and most important part of the symphony.
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/p6_37.30.mp3[/mp3]
I heard the Dorati 7th in 1974 (I think....); anybody beat that? I still have the LP.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 20, 2008, 12:30:16 AM
Jezetha, I like the Trojahn/CPO release of #6 much more, but good you started... :)
Yes, I listened to Sym. No. 6 about ten million times in 2005-2006...As often as I could afford it. It's catching from the very beginning. The simple and dark theme in the beginning (and later in the symphony) ... great.
I'll listen to the Trojahn/CPO release too, of course. But not now. As I said - the music is of such intensity when you really respond to it, you (i.e. I) can't repeat the exercise too often. But I
will listen to the teaser... If the Trojahn is
better, as you say, it must be devastating. :o
Help!
Johan
Did anyone make a backup of Xantus's excellent analysises of Pettersson's symphonies from the old (IIRC, now dead) forum?
Quote from: Lethe on January 20, 2008, 12:38:55 AMDid anyone make a backup of Xantus's excellent analysises of Pettersson's symphonies from the old (IIRC, now dead) forum?
Yes I was just thinking the same! Cannot find the old thread. I've got them.
EDIT2: I hope Xantus wouldn't mind... :)
Pettersson Symphony reviews/analysis of GMG user Xantus'Murrelet:http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/xantus_pettersson_reviews.zip (Syms. 6-11,13-15, I've formatted the text files now.)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 20, 2008, 12:40:42 AM
Yes I was just thinking the same! Cannot find the old thread. I've got them.
Great service, Wurstwasser! And - I just listened to your teaser. Very very beautiful. That syncopated motif, used as a sort of slow ostinato underpinning that wonderful
cantilena, really must have haunted Pettersson. It will be interesting to see if it makes an appearance in the Eighth...
P.S. I just had a peek at these descriptive analyses - he really has done his homework. It will be interesting for me to contrast and compare my reactions/ideas with his. Something for the coming months...
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 20, 2008, 12:40:42 AM
Yes I was just thinking the same! Cannot find the old thread. I've got them.
EDIT2: I hope Xantus wouldn't mind... :)
Pettersson Symphony reviews/analysis of GMG user Xantus'Murrelet:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/xantus_pettersson_reviews.zip (Syms. 6-11,13-15, I've formatted the text files now.)
Danke :) It will be useful for the ones other than 6-7-8, which I admit, I am by far most familiar with.
I think I have to explore Pettersson in a more leisurely fashion. After two completely new Pettersson symphonies in one go, I'm still a bit numb. I must think of my health... ;)
Quote from: Jezetha on January 20, 2008, 05:15:16 AM
I think I have to explore Pettersson in a more leisurely fashion. After two completely new Pettersson symphonies in one go, I'm still a bit numb. I must think of my health... ;)
Johan
Thanks kindly for the MP5 links to the CPO 12th.
Got to hear the 1st part of 5.
Interesting how listening on headphones really drives the immediacy of the dark heavy atmosphere of the work right to the core. The speaker config keeps the music at a distance, and negates some of the inner turmoils of the work. maybe headphones is really the way to get to know a emotionally gripping work like the 12th, as one would have a similar immediacy of experience in a live concert.
Interesting idea.
So to think the CPO is heavy enough of an experience, don't even think to consider the Caprice which takes the work with even heavier male chorus. One sinks even lower into this tragic world of the 12th.
Wjat a mystical work is the 12th!
I might say its , in fact is my most powerful experience in Pettersson.
I may order a second copy of the caprice for future needs. Donate a copy to Tulane possibly, close friend, etc. Who knows when or if caprice will ever re-release.
Quote from: paulb on January 15, 2008, 09:17:02 AM
Varg. I tend not to suggest the 2,3,4,5 syms for anyone. I feel the 6th begins the journey into Pettersson.
btw how do you like the photo of Pettersson? It shows more about the man than the photo in your profile.
Schnittke and Pettersson , unlike any other composers in late 20th C music. Amazing they were contemporaries , just miles apart and speaking a profound language that only a few can hear. Ahh these days we live in. Unlike any in history.
For me, it start with the 6th and end with the 8th. Of course, his own language continue to evolve after that; i just happen to not like it very much, that is, if i compare it with Pettersson himself. What can possibly sound as good as his middle symphonies (from any composer,
including Pettersson), especially his 6th and 7th! I witness perfection each time i listen to them.
With all that said, i find his 2-3-4-5 symphonies to be nearly uninteresting, even if i - kind of - enjoy the 2nd and 5th from time to time; but i know they would be appealing to a lot of people, and that would be selfish and pretentious of me to told them to not bother, and unfair to the composer.
Photo's looking good. You're right, it's clearer than mine; but that's no beauty contest! It shows that we both have great admiration for the composer, and that is all that matters.
The only composer i know that might closely approach Pettersson in terms of complexity and density would be Schnittke. Its really impossible to compare these 2 composers, i feel like they are twin spirits, thus equals.
And yes I am taking into consideration Shostakovich's 5,7,8 syms when making this statement.
- Post symphony 11, Petterson's most significant work (and possibly his calling card to immortality) is the 2nd violin concerto.
- Johan, please let us (me) know about that novel of yours when it's published :)
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 25, 2008, 09:29:28 PM
- Post symphony 11, Petterson's most significant work (and possibly his calling card to immortality) is the 2nd violin concerto.
The 2nd vc is no doubt a pinnacle of creative expression in his output. But so are sym 12/especially the Caprice VERSION (the cpo and caprice are THAT DIFFERENT), sym 13, 14,15.
The 13th in my mind is equal to the depth , complexity, dynamics as the 2nd vc, and sym 12/caprice.
These 3 works are the highest peaks in Pettersson's mountain range.
Pettersson's works I can only describe in terms of the Mt Zion National park/Utah and also The Himalayan range/Mt Everest.
Whereas Schnittke would be the Balck Forest /Germany in its pristine state, about 2000 yrs ago, before what the romans began, and native peoples finsihed off in the subsequent 2000 yrs, then also the northern primeval forests of russia , also before russian loggers desimated that forest, and last but certainly not least, Schnittke's music strikes me as that forest of the west coast/USA, where the giant red woods and sequoias onced towered as far as the eye could see.
That to me is Schnittke.
That to me is Pettersson
8) :)
Paul
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 06:15:51 AM
These 3 works are the highest peaks in Pettersson's mountain range.
Pettersson's works I can only describe in terms of the Mt Zion National park/Utah and also The Himalayan range/Mt Everest.
Whereas Schnittke would be the Balck Forest /Germany in its pristine state, about 2000 yrs ago, before what the romans began, and native peoples finsihed off in the subsequent 2000 yrs, then also the northern primeval forests of russia , also before russian loggers desimated that forest, and last but certainly not least, Schnittke's music strikes me as that forest of the west coast/USA, where the giant red woods and sequoias onced towered as far as the eye could see.
That to me is Schnittke.
That to me is Pettersson
8) :)
Paul
Paul,
I like your "mountain range" metaphor, and I embrace its application to Pettersson's symphony cycle.
However, I personally find that metaphor to be equally applicable to
Anton Bruckner's symphonies. Indeed, the only way I can describe the first movement of
Bruckner's Ninth Symphony in D Minor is with a mountain range metaphor: once the listener scales the climax of the opening theme, the listener becomes immediately drawn to other mountains in the distance ...... reaching one peak only serves to whet the listener's appetite for reaching other peaks that become visible upon ascending the previous peak ....... and so on ...... It becomes a successive journey of achievement coupled with an ever greater yearning, searching, and striving .........
Quote from: Dm on January 26, 2008, 07:22:20 AM
Paul,
I like your "mountain range" metaphor, and I embrace its application to Pettersson's symphony cycle.
However, I personally find that metaphor to be equally applicable to Anton Bruckner's symphonies.
"When I think of Havergal Brian's 32 symphonies as a single body of work, the image that most often comes to mind is of a great range of mountains, marching in a line from horizon to horizon. It is a useful metaphor, for while it stresses the works' basic kinship it also reminds us of the individuality of each. Every peak stands alone with its own particular formation of spur and ridge, scarp and glacier - nor do any two have exactly the same mass, or reach exactly the same level."
Malcolm MacDonald, The Symphonies of Havergal Brian, Vol. 2 (1974)
Quote from: Dm on January 26, 2008, 07:22:20 AM
Paul,
I like your "mountain range" metaphor, and I embrace its application to Pettersson's symphony cycle.
However, I personally find that metaphor to be equally applicable to Anton Bruckner's symphonies. Indeed, the only way I can describe the first movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony in D Minor is with a mountain range metaphor: once the listener scales the climax of the opening theme, the listener becomes immediately drawn to other mountains in the distance ...... reaching one peak only serves to whet the listener's appetite for reaching other peaks that become visible upon ascending the previous peak ....... and so on ...... It becomes a successive journey of achievement coupled with an ever greater yearning, searching, and striving .........
I do not know Brucker well enough, only know his muisc is not for me. I might find upon listening to Bruckner that i am lost in some lonely boring, inclement weather conditioned valley enviornment within the mountain range.
With Pettersson its like one has
wings of an eagle, maybe on a perfect updraft taking your hangglider across the entire Mt zion Nat park/Grand Canyon.
Breath-taking for sure. But not w/o its risks and frights. soring just over those jagged tops of the orange colored peaks in My Zion, gliding along gorges of the grand cayon's towering walls of ancient designs.
This is what i was more trying to express.
Not to take away from your Bruckner experience, mind you.
I've only been to MT Zion for one day, I need at least another month to see half of what's in those ranges.
its Petterssonian territory, a very spiritual place. that entire southwest is spiritual, outside the new sprawling cities that is.
Quote from: Dm on April 08, 2007, 12:39:40 PM
Perhaps you "worship" the music (or its beauty), not the composer . . . . . .
For some reason, the music of Pettersson evokes depth, ideas , feelings and so probes our minds, our spirits. Comissiona noticed that after Pettersson concerts, not just a few audience members were noticed to be so moved as to tears.
I believe Comissiona mentions this on the DVD documentary I have on Pettersson, one day soon i'll eplay it.
I only saw it once.
its mostly in swedish, Pettersson is in the film. A swedish gentleman was so kind to send me a copy.
In Pettersson talk, more often than any other composer, words used to describe the music, the experience, are also expressions found in religious literature.
Pettersson himself says: "...in order to rediscover the song once sung by the soul"
Can i get a
Amen halaluhia ?
No thats church stuff , more identified with conventional, conservative religionISTS.
Pettersson's meanings of the soul are somewhat ofa different nature. More in line with Jung's ideas on the soul, and also those ideas of Plato/Socrates on the soul. Understandings far from how the church understands
soul.
Besides when we say church, which church are you refering to? There are thousands of christian sects and other world religions are also in a state of fragmentation. Tibetan Buddhism would be the exception. But that form of religion is far away from western day to day living as to be of little practical use for the average common man.
anyway just thoughts.
btw can anyone post a pic of a supreme royal castle? maybe also a pic of the main grand hall.
Since this is Pettersson's Pavilion, I think we should all know what a pavilion, or castle looks like.
I saw that photo.
I surfed the web for 30 minutes and could not locate this one castle i saw on the travel show Great Castles Of Europe.
This one castle was the most awesome and impressive of them all. Nothing compared to this one, as the arieal shot moved overhead from the helicopter. STUNNING!
It sat way high over a river, maybe ona isle or islnd in the river. Its been some yrs, but i do recall my impressions.
Don't try to look for, I've spent 30 minutes and could find it
The one you have, though swedish, does not fit the emotional structures and charactzational elements. Drottington is too much a representation of that power which created the hellish society that Pettersson found himself surrounded by.
No we needa castle that is both magnificient, yet earthly, "for the common man"
Drottnington is built by the blood and sweat of the poor.
Quote from: paulb on January 27, 2008, 01:34:21 PM
I saw that photo.
I surfed the web for 30 minutes and could not locate this one castle i saw on the travel show Great Castles Of Europe.
This one castle was the most awesome and impressive of them all. Nothing compared to this one, as the arieal shot moved overhead from the helicopter. STUNNING!
It sat way high over a river, maybe ona isle or islnd in the river. Its been some yrs, but i do recall my impressions.
Don't try to look for, I've spent 30 minutes and could find it
The one you have, though swedish, does not fit the emotional structures and charactzational elements. Drottington is too much a representation of that power which created the hellish society that Pettersson found himself surrounded by.
No we needa castle that is both magnificient, yet earthly, "for the common man"
Drottnington is built by the blood and sweat of the poor.
I agree. After I put it here, I thought at once 'this is everything Pettersson does NOT represent'. I'll remove it.
Quote from: paulb on January 27, 2008, 01:34:21 PM
I surfed the web for 30 minutes and could not locate this one castle i saw on the travel show Great Castles Of Europe.
This one castle was the most awesome and impressive of them all. Nothing compared to this one, as the arieal shot moved overhead from the helicopter. STUNNING!
It sat way high over a river, maybe ona isle or islnd in the river. Its been some yrs, but i do recall my impressions.
Don't try to look for, I've spent 30 minutes and could find it
If you describe it a little more, somebody who already knows it may be able to help.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 27, 2008, 01:36:51 PM
I agree. After I put it here, I thought at once 'this is everything Pettersson does NOT represent'. I'll remove it.
Glad to know you have that connection to Pettersson's imagery and the pompous castle dosen;t fit.
Here i founda german castle that I need to look at its history and design.
I think I see something interesting in this castle that may fit Pettersson's muisc.
Do i see a Cathedreal or church within its walls? as though the castle is of a completeness, a place where folks can go in times of seige and trouble from enemies and have all its needs met, a church included??
Quote from: Lethe on January 27, 2008, 01:43:59 PM
If you describe it a little more, somebody who already knows it may be able to help.
How do you like the castle i found. I will look into the history and design of the structure. seems to be a city in itself. Which is what Pettersson's muisc is, a completeness, a
Mandala :)
Its King Ludwig's castle
found it on this page
http://www.mediaspec.com/castles/
That's funny, Paul. But now you are in Wagner's territory! Ludwig II of Bavaria adored Wagner's operas, and his (two) castles are very sumptuous and baroque, filled with paintings of Wagnerian characters. One of them even has a 'Lohengrin grotto' with fake swan... No, I don't think this fits Pettersson's bill...
What about Gaudí's 'Sagrada Familia' in Barcelona? An unfinished cathedral, organic, apocalyptic?
My hunch was correct, has a magnificient byzantine chruch inside. I do think we may have found a castle stylized around the music of Allan Pettersson .
can you imagine a concert with one of those excellent german orchestras on CPO playing the complete works of Pettersson, where the muisc fills the entire castle, so even when you are in the farthest tower, you can hear the power and hauntings of the spiritual nature of the muisc.
btw, the 12th will be played at the stroke of midnight, candle light, in the church. ;)
Quote from: Jezetha on January 27, 2008, 02:05:18 PM
What about Gaudí's 'Sagrada Familia' in Barcelona? An unfinished cathedral, organic, apocalyptic?
WOW what a sight! I hope to visit this strange looking cathedreal, if /when i ever make it to europe ::)
I think it's too beautiful, Paul. When I look back at my listening experience last week (symphonies 6 & 7), I see granite, pain, a bleak light, explosions, a wide expanse, much darkness...
Quote from: Jezetha on January 27, 2008, 01:59:04 PM
That's funny, Paul. But now you are in Wagner's territory! Ludwig II of Bavaria adored Wagner's operas, and his (two) castles are very sumptuous and baroque, filled with paintings of Wagnerian characters. One of them even has a 'Lohengrin grotto' with fake swan... No, I don't think this fits Pettersson's bill...
;D
I propose Harlech Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlech_Castle). It was built by Edward I during his conquest of Wales, and is one of the more advanced fortifications in Europe - modeled after Krak des Chevaliers, but it got so neglected that it was overrun by 21 of the local population :P I guess that counts as anti-imperial ;D
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4075/harlechcastlete1.jpg)
It was originally right next to the sea, but in the passing time, the sea has receeded.
Quote from: Lethe on January 27, 2008, 02:09:32 PM
it got so neglected that it was overrun by 21 of the local population :P I guess that counts as anti-imperial ;D
;D
Now I know what the song 'Men of Harlech' is referring to!
Quote from: paulb on January 27, 2008, 01:11:35 PM
I believe Comissiona mentions this on the DVD documentary I have on Pettersson, one day soon i'll eplay it.
I only saw it once.
Paul, could you tell us more about this documentary? Is it in English?
Quote from: Jezetha on January 27, 2008, 02:08:08 PM
I think it's too beautiful, Paul. When I look back at my listening experience last week (symphonies 6 & 7), I see granite, pain, a bleak light, explosions, a wide expanse, much darkness...
I missed your post last night.
Yes its too beautiful as a place where Pettersson's music would seem out of place.
But recall, this castle with its exquisite church was not illuminated as in this photo. Oh no. It was by candle lights, torch style fixtures. So now go back and use your imagination. This castle in the day fully blooming with bright day light, as its high on the mountain, clouds passing and alternating the shades of light during the day. At night the candles are lit, and thats when pettersson's music comes alive in the castle's main hall room. The music bouncing off the high acoustic walls, projecting throughout the entire castle. I think you are right the 12th is the only one to be performed in the church, twice a year.
See now how this might be justified as Pettersson's Pavilion :)
Can you imagine is there was a all Pettersson sym cycle concert there, and all Petterssonians had the liberty and time to attend, no matter what part of this world they are located. :)
Quote from: Thom on January 27, 2008, 09:57:26 PM
Paul, could you tell us more about this documentary? Is it in English?
I'll try to replay it today. Its like the public station of sweden that produced the documentary. Its mostly in swedish, Comissiona and a few others make small contributions in english. I'll try to write down the english parts.
The film shows Pettersson walking down his old apartment on the 3rd floor, for the last time in his life, as now he was provided with a new accomadation on ground level. He is shown slowly struggling down the staircase, he was partly paralyzed. He gives an interview talking passionately about his music.
I'll try to have someone burn a copy and send it to one of our members who know swedish.
Thank you, Paul!
I've seen it - it was aired on Norwegian Television many years ago.
Quote from: paulb on January 28, 2008, 05:39:12 AM
I missed your post last night.
Yes its too beautiful as a place where Pettersson's music would seem out of place.
But recall, this castle with its exquisite church was not illuminated as in this photo. Oh no. It was by candle lights, torch style fixtures. So now go back and use your imagination. This castle in the day fully blooming with bright day light, as its high on the mountain, clouds passing and alternating the shades of light during the day. At night the candles are lit, and thats when pettersson's music comes alive in the castle's main hall room. The music bouncing off the high acoustic walls, projecting throughout the entire castle. I think you are right the 12th is the only one to be performed in the church, twice a year.
See now how this might be justified as Pettersson's Pavilion :)
Can you imagine is there was a all Pettersson sym cycle concert there, and all Petterssonians had the liberty and time to attend, no matter what part of this world they are located. :)
Okay, okay, you win!
There isn't a second monarch in the history of music who was so obsessed by a composer. And the loneliness of Pettersson isn't perhaps as far removed from that of Ludwig II... Neuschwanstein (or the other one) it'll be!
Wagner will not be happy. But he already has his own theatre (partly paid for by that same Ludwig).
Johan
Quote from: Jezetha on January 28, 2008, 08:20:37 AM
Okay, okay, you win!
There isn't a second monarch in the history of music who was so obsessed by a composer. And the loneliness of Pettersson isn't perhaps as far removed from that of Ludwig II... Neuschwanstein (or the other one) it'll be!
Wagner will not be happy. But he already has his own theatre (partly paid for by that same Ludwig).
Johan
thanks for seeing this mighty castle with its own magificient church inside as the offical Pettersson's Pavilion.
Good to know Ludwig also had suffered depression and loneliness as did Pettersson, so there is a connection. And that Ludwig funded the arts. Of all castles in europe, I seemed to zero in on the ideal one :)
But seriously could you imagine attending an all day Pettersson concert in the castle's main hall., cluminating with the 12th at midnight in the church :o
Quote from: paulb on January 28, 2008, 10:06:55 AM
But seriously could you imagine attending an all day Pettersson concert in the castle's main hall., culminating in the 12th at midnight in the church :o
I can't. I won't. It's too hair-raising... ;)
Quote from: paulb on January 28, 2008, 05:47:29 AM
I'll try to have someone burn a copy and send it to one of our members who know swedish.
that would be cool!
(though the only person on here i know that speaks Swedish is Daidalos......)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on January 28, 2008, 11:25:11 AM
that would be cool!
(though the only person on here i know that speaks Swedish is Daidalos......)
If erato is Norwegian, we have another who can understand Swedish (as Scandinavians generally can understand each other, although Danish poses a problem). I can read it, and more or less understand it, too, having taught myself Danish. Even better: one of my best friends is half Swedish, and her mother teaches Swedish at Amsterdam University... But can't you rip the DVD, Paul, and put it, in parts, on YouTube?
Quote from: Jezetha on January 28, 2008, 11:41:17 AM
If erato is Norwegian, we have another who can understand Swedish (as Scandinavians generally can understand each other, although Danish poses a problem). I can read it, and more or less understand it, too, having taught myself Danish. Even better: one of my best friends is half Swedish, and her mother teaches Swedish at Amsterdam University... But can't you rip the DVD, Paul, and put it, in parts, on YouTube?
so...... what does that make you?
Quote from: Jezetha on January 28, 2008, 11:41:17 AM
But can't you rip the DVD, Paul, and put it, in parts, on YouTube?
yep, that'd be the best idea, then get anyone who could explain what is being said :)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on January 29, 2008, 06:51:13 AM
so...... what does that make you?
I am Dutch. The Scandinavian languages are the northern branch of the same family of languages; English, Frisian, Dutch and German the western. Learning a Scandinavian language isn't too difficult for a Dutchman.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 29, 2008, 07:20:14 AMI am Dutch. The Scandinavian languages are the northern branch of the same family of languages; English, Frisian, Dutch and German the western. Learning a Scandinavian language isn't too difficult for a Dutchman.
Except finnish I guess - shouldn't be too lekker...
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 29, 2008, 10:42:58 PM
Except finnish I guess - shouldn't be too lekker...
Well, Finland is not part of Scandinavia anyway.....
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 29, 2008, 10:42:58 PM
Except finnish I guess - shouldn't be too lekker...
Quote from: erato on January 29, 2008, 10:47:24 PM
Well, Finland is not part of Scandinavia anyway.....
It's a pity Finnish isn't a Germanic language, otherwise I could read the
Kalevala in the original...
Quote from: Jezetha on January 29, 2008, 07:20:14 AM
I am Dutch. The Scandinavian languages are the northern branch of the same family of languages; English, Frisian, Dutch and German the western. Learning a Scandinavian language isn't too difficult for a Dutchman.
exactly! (so i've heard)
now, learning any of those languages if you speak English is another story (comparing difficulty) :-X
I found the Pettersson 12 on Caprice in one of my local CD shops today. I was about to buy it, but then I saw that the CD had a scratch mark on it (not shrink-wrapped). I told this to the clerk, and it ended up I got it for free as I they did not know if it would play properly :).
And it does play properly :) (the first I hear after the 7th) and I must say this can be a real grower. It's a nice bonus that he uses the poems of Pablo Neruda - a poet I really like.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/215DJD6K26L._AA130_.jpg)
When I get home this evening, I'm downloading this:
(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl500/l581/l58144nbljf.jpg)
Symphony Nos. 7 & 11. I'm a Pettersson virgin & I'll give this at least four or five listens over the weekend.
Unfortunately, iTunes doesn't have a lot of recordings available of his, but it will be good for starters at any rate!
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 08, 2008, 01:36:37 PMI'm a Pettersson virgin & I'll give this at least four or five listens over the weekend.
Good luck. I am not a virgin anymore, after two symphonies (6 & 7) under my (chastity) belt... ;) I take my Pettersson in small doses. My next symphony will be No 8.
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 08, 2008, 01:36:37 PM
When I get home this evening, I'm downloading this:
(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl500/l581/l58144nbljf.jpg)
Symphony Nos. 7 & 11. I'm a Pettersson virgin & I'll give this at least four or five listens over the weekend.
Unfortunately, iTunes doesn't have a lot of recordings available of his, but it will be good for starters at any rate!
Yep, if you want to start with Pettersson, that's the one!
oh, man!!! I just finished with No. 7!! :o
I'm going to take a break before listening to No. 11 tonight, but all I have to say right now is that it was great and packed a lot more of an emotional wallop than I was prepared for (I was in tears in two places)-- very moving! (if it makes me cry, then I know I've found myself some gold!)
Two things to say for now-- this symphony certainly puts him in roughly the same aesthetic area as Shostakovich-- not that Petterrson *sounds* like him per se, but I feel mood-wise he's kinda in the same sort of territory.
Secondly, oddly enough, the Canadian band, Godspeed You Black Emperor! came to mind-- I wonder if those guys are familiar with his work? Somehow I wouldn't be surprised...
I've got to digest this a bit more, get a better orientation about this. I'd like to get a bit of background info on Pettersson as well.
Thank you for your encouragement, Paul and also to Some Guy, who brought his name to my attention several weeks ago on the Talk Classical forum (I haven't seen him around here lately i don't think?).
I want to listen to No. 7 again, but I'm going to stop, eat & then listen to No. 11.
(I was expecting it to be good, but not THAT good!)
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 08, 2008, 02:56:03 PM
Secondly, oddly enough, the Canadian band, Godspeed You Black Emperor! came to mind-- I wonder if those guys are familiar with his work? Somehow I wouldn't be surprised...
Nice write-up! I think Paul will be very thrilled you take to Pettersson so easily! I know
Godspeed You Black Emperor! through my cousin, who is a great fan...
Symphony No. 11 is a bit thornier for me-- seems I may need to try a bit harder *clicking* with that one, harder for me to give any immediate first impressions. I will will give both more listenings tomorrow. I will resist the temptation to purchase No. 8 & 10 at least til next payday.
Jezetha, certainly, like Shostakovich for me, this is music is music to be taken in small doses-- great music, but really dark & weighty stuff!
The 11th is like some ...ahh here the liner notes CPO comes in perfectly:
""The stormy weather
here lets see the page..crummy resolution.
Anyway key phase in these notes about the 11th is "balancing point" in the cycle. Not as stormy as the others.
Not in any way to take away from the 11th as a very fine sym, there are no 'duds" in Pettersson, its a foreign concept. Shostakovich has "duds" as do most every composer., Pettersson does not have duds. they do not exist.
So the 11th gives those who came through the 5-10 and allows a sort of breather...You are going to need it, so gather all the strength you can, there's much more ahead.. yeah i know the 6,8,9,10 was unreal, not to be surpassed, impossible to go beyond!
The 12th Caprice, the 13th are the most challenging of the cycle.
Its a rare day i play either.
The 14th , 15th are nothing less in scope and textures as the ones before, 5-13, just slightly less in degree on intensity. IOW if you think the 5-13 were just about all this cycle could possibly offer, how could there yet remain 2 more symphonies to have this quality of crafting and power , after what I just experienced in 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 ??? ::)
Not only is it possible, its for real.
Pettersson's materpieces, 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15, vc2.
There's not a whole lot of other 20th C composers I know of which can match this consistency in their oeuvre.
Like maybe 8 other composers.
Quote from: paulb on February 08, 2008, 05:01:50 PM
Shostakovich has "duds" as do most every composer.
7th symphony, anything past the first movement. That one seriously serious dud....
Did I tell, that I love the Pettersson Symponies very much, and I was depressed for months.
But worth it though.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 09, 2008, 11:21:56 AM
7th symphony, anything past the first movement. That one seriously serious dud....
I corrected myself, I just been listening to Shostakovich's complete syms. Like Pettersson, very consistent quality. But IMHO Pettersson passes Shostakovich in this area of quality/consistency.
Greg, you need to relisten to Shostakovich's 7th sym. Masterpiece. Try to get the Kondrashin or Rozhdestvensky, that may change your opinion.
I hold to the
PERSONALopinion that Pettersson ranks along with 8 other 20th C composers as far as consistent genius.
Quote from: paulb on February 09, 2008, 12:41:39 PM
Greg, you need to relisten to Shostakovich's 7th sym. Masterpiece. Try to get the Kondrashin or Rozhdestvensky, that may change your opinion.
Actually, Rozhdestvensky is the recording I have. 1st movement I LOOOOOVEEEE but the rest is just so incredibly boring, even following along with the score doesn't help (and i tried twice!)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 09, 2008, 11:21:56 AM
7th symphony, anything past the first movement. That one seriously serious dud....
You are referring to Petersson's 7th or Shostakovich's? Certainly not the Leningrad! ???
You should try Janssons's 7th...
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 08, 2008, 02:56:03 PM
oh, man!!! I just finished with No. 7!! :o
I'm going to take a break before listening to No. 11 tonight, but all I have to say right now is that it was great and packed a lot more of an emotional wallop than I was prepared for (I was in tears in two places)-- very moving! (if it makes me cry, then I know I've found myself some gold!)
Two things to say for now-- this symphony certainly puts him in roughly the same aesthetic area as Shostakovich-- not that Petterrson *sounds* like him per se, but I feel mood-wise he's kinda in the same sort of territory.
Secondly, oddly enough, the Canadian band, Godspeed You Black Emperor! came to mind-- I wonder if those guys are familiar with his work? Somehow I wouldn't be surprised...
I've got to digest this a bit more, get a better orientation about this. I'd like to get a bit of background info on Pettersson as well.
Thank you for your encouragement, Paul and also to Some Guy, who brought his name to my attention several weeks ago on the Talk Classical forum (I haven't seen him around here lately i don't think?).
I want to listen to No. 7 again, but I'm going to stop, eat & then listen to No. 11.
(I was expecting it to be good, but not THAT good!)
Thanks for the review! I've been itching to try out Petersson. He has many admirers on these boards. Will be downloading that album from emusic very soon!
Quote from: Steve on February 09, 2008, 12:53:41 PM
You are referring to Petersson's 7th or Shostakovich's? Certainly not the Leningrad! ???
You should try Janssons's 7th...
When i first read greg's comment, i also had to doubt if he was refering mistakingly to Shostakovich's and meant to say Pettersson's 7th.
I also was like ???
I've heard these type comments about Bruckner, Beethoven's and especially Mahler's syms. "I love _,_,_ movements, but not the _" But never about the Shostakovich 5,7,8 syms.
For whatever reason Greg has to hold what he feels. Maybe later on he may change his opinion. But its not necessary, Greg is free to like what ever his feelings allows.
I have not heard Jansson's, there is nothing wrong with the Rozhdestvennky. Its not the recording.
I'm listening to Kondrashin's 7th right now, its been too long, I am curious to know myself how the 2,3,4 movements strike me since last listen.
Of all the comments I've read on Pettersson, the 13th has been least mentioned as to most impressive.
The 7th always takes precedence, the beautiful resolution makes everyone's day.
Then the 6,8,9 are next often mentioned.
the 13th has been the
best kept secret as least for the hardcore Petterssonians its the most intense.
I can play no favs among the cycle, as all are part of The Cycle.
I am not one to say, "I like such and such part of a work, but not keen on this part".
For me its all or
nothing.
Has to strike me first note through to the very last to get my attention.
But if I were forced, by the
waterboarding ;), I'd confess the dark energy of the 13th would be, for me, the highpoint of The Cycle. Highpoint? better to say the 'low' point. :)
Highpoint as in Mt Zion National Park mountain range. Where one glorious peak leads to another and all are connected as One. Yet there always is one peak that stands slightly more impressive than the others.
Now do the syms of Pettersson engage me more than the syms of Shostakovich? yes
I would tend to say , if one is a Shostakovichian, one is also a Petterssonian, even if that Shostakovichian has yet to hear a Pettersson sym.
We are comrades in spirit.
spirit here does not mean in a religious sense, but as Nietzsche uses the word spirit, geist
Its just a matter of time before all the Shostakovichians join in with their fellow Petterssonians.
Ahh i just now realized both composers have 15 syms
"no, Pettersson has 16"
No, actually it is 15, ...2-16 =15 syms :) (the 1st is a fragment?)
Hows that for seeing the connection between these 2....wait , both have TWO VIOLIN CONCERTOS :o
With both sharing a commonality in the vc's that one is lesser to other. The 'other' vc being a towering masterpiece for both.
Was busy reading, and the thought ocurred, why not look up their birth dates. I had my doubts if they were even close in signs..
not that i give alot of weight to the sign thing, but obviously there is something fishy about people born under a sign and the ensuing descriptives.
Shostakovich, Sept 25,1906
Pettersson, Sept 19, 1911
:-X
Quote from: paulb on February 09, 2008, 05:51:46 PM
I would tend to say , if one is a Shostakovichian, one is also a Petterssonian, even if that Shostakovichian has yet to hear a Pettersson sym.
Based on my limited exposure to Pettersson, I would have to agree. There are differences, that goes without saying, but yes, they are definitely in the same "spirit."
As far as Shostakovich symphonies go, I love the 10th-- a solid thematic structure that, like Pettersson, is very rugged & mountainous.
Pettersson's 11th symphony is a tougher nut for me to crack. I can't make any substantial comments on it, something I'll have to listen to over a long period of time here & there before I can find my way inside the music.
Next payday I intend to get No. 8 & No. 10 though. Hearing the 7th is enough to make me want more & my ears are convinced he's a solid composer to be sure.
Just a few more notes to share on the 7th:
I found my way into the 7th a bit unexpectedly. If a piece of music has great emotional depth (whatever that is, I know it when I hear it I guess) I
usually have to listen to a piece at least a second time to move me in a substantial way, so it surprised me in at least a couple of moments where I actually cried on the first go round! One of those places is the quiet hymn-like string section around the 29 minute mark, but specifically it has to do with the context of that passage in the midst of such anguish.
Earlier on, around the 11 minute mark is a very stoic passage for brass (lots of strong brass in Pettersson) and there is almost an attempt to disrupt this theme again and again but the brass continues on regardless.
Right at the 15:40 mark was also an extraordinarily powerful moment, a sort of epiphany in the music, a momentary release from the tension.
The dirge at the end is really great too...
The 7th reminds me of Kurosawa's great film,
Ran-- its absolutely monumental, but its also an emotionally & physically exhausting experience. Shostakovich can often be that way too. Heavy stuff, but VERY rewarding.
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 09, 2008, 07:17:09 PM
Based on my limited exposure to Pettersson, I would have to agree. There are differences, that goes without saying, but yes, they are definitely in the same "spirit."
I'd question that. I admittedly haven't heard as much Pettersson as DSCH, but the latter often uses irony or flippancy to undermine or counter his more serious moods, whereas Pettersson seems unremittingly serious. Pettersson's music also strikes me as more intimate and personal and revealing. Nonetheless, from the (simplistic) standpoint of "Shostakovich=dark" and "Pettersson=dark", yes there's common ground that should unite admirers of both.
Quote from: Grazioso on February 10, 2008, 04:47:27 AM
I'd question that. I admittedly haven't heard as much Pettersson as DSCH, but the latter often uses irony or flippancy to undermine or counter his more serious moods, whereas Pettersson seems unremittingly serious. Pettersson's music also strikes me as more intimate and personal and revealing. Nonetheless, from the (simplistic) standpoint of "Shostakovich=dark" and "Pettersson=dark", yes there's common ground that should unite admirers of both.
True, true -- good point.
Quote from: Grazioso on February 10, 2008, 04:47:27 AM
I'd question that. I admittedly haven't heard as much Pettersson as DSCH, but the latter often uses irony or flippancy to undermine or counter his more serious moods, whereas Pettersson seems unremittingly serious. Pettersson's music also strikes me as more intimate and personal and revealing. Nonetheless, from the (simplistic) standpoint of "Shostakovich=dark" and "Pettersson=dark", yes there's common ground that should unite admirers of both.
Good post
Shostakovich is well known for his sarcastic and tongue in cheek jokester, especially most the sq's, and particuliarily sym9, somewhat sym 6, and maybe a few others places.
His best syms 5,7,8 are testimonies of the brutalities of fascist russia and Stalin.
Pettersson and his mother was brutalized by his father and the slum society he grew up in. Shostakovich from what I recall had as good mother, and I imagine a well behaved father, and did not grow up in a slum. I guess Shostakovich suffered with some degree of poverty, as did Pettersson. And I also see Shostakovich in the syms as more objective in feeling. From a Jungian standpoint Shostakovich speaks
more from a a epistemological externalist approach and Pettersson
has a tendency from a epistemological internalist expression. Though it is fair to say both composers overlap in these 2 perspectives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalism_and_externalism
Shostakovich syms depict the machine's brutal asssults on the individual and the many who are crushed by this inhumane monster, and allows glimpses of hope to shine through.
Pettersson also deals with this insidious monster threatening the individual, but more from the perspective of the individual enlightened soul. As we know from greek mythology, Orpheus, and Plato, there is the univerasal soul of mankind and the individual soul but one that is awake, seeking a means of salvation (not in the christian meaning). Pettersson has both aspects in mind,
man's over-soul and his birth place Mother Earth, and that distinct
individual awakened soul which is strugglingly for liberation in the face of overwhelming injustice and brutalities.
Quote from: Dm on January 16, 2008, 07:47:30 AM
Listened to Pettersson 15 today for the first time ....... and I must say I'm extremely impressed. Sym. No. 15 seldom receives prominent mention ......... but it's a masterpiece .........
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21C6H1JT18L._AA130_.jpg)
Chris Forbes ("weirdears" on the old board) wrote this about Pettersson's 15th Symphony @Amazon:
It was typical during the sixites and early seventies for critics and composers to decry the "death of the symphony" either with glee or despair depending on the outlook of the speaker. Serialists of the Boulezian persuasion saw in the death of the symphony a similar death of the "old order" exemplified by German Idealism and the romantic spirit which they believed was responsible for the eventual atrocities of the twentieth century. Others of a more conservative outlook saw the rise of serial techniques and it's experimental forms as a rejection of Romantic aesthetics and their emphasis on the emotional content of music and saw this as evidence of the further "dehumanizing" effect of science on contemporary humanity. But unbenounced to either faction, there was a cadre of lone, but powerful voices which determined to keep alive the flame of the symphonic tradition. This cadre was often underrecognized, partly due to geography and partly due to political and social reasons. One of the most powerful of these "new symphonic" voices was that of Allan Pettersson.
Pettersson was one of the great "outsider" voices of the twentieth century. Born in impoverished circumstances in one of the bad areas of Stockholm, Pettersson, like the English Havergal Brian before him, had to suffer the indignaties of class prejudice in a society that had a hard time believing anything good could come from any member of the class which Pettersson represented. The composer was an accomplished violist and in fact made his living as an orchestral musician. But his compositional training was also impressive. He spent several years studying in France with figures such as Rene Liebowiz, the great apologist for the Second Viennese school. Though his studies with such figures didn't not succeed in any traditional way, they left a mark of rigor and intellectualism in the composer's work that has often gone undetected. When he returned to Sweden, Pettersson began a series of symphonic compositions which were unprecedented in the history of 20th century music. His work was modernist, and yet not arid in the way that so many post-war serialists could be. He was not afraid of tonality, and in fact, all of his works, even the most difficult always resolved to some tonal center, even if that center was strained to the breaking point.
Each of Pettersson's symphonies is in a sense an autobiography. Each one also is a statement of protest and of global humanist ideals. In his world, issues of musical language...tonal or atonal...take a back seat to the overall emotional impact that he wishes for his symphonies. The works are cries of grief...of protest...and ultimately cries to God for the working out of justice and peace on the earth.
The 15th symphony is the product of a very great year for Pettersson, which saw not only this symphony, but the beautiful 14th symphony and several smaller works. All of the pieces from this period are characterized by a greater sense of lyricism. In comparison with the astringent 9th and 10th symphonies, or the passionate protests of Symphony No. 12, these works have a core of gentleness to them. Not that they are "easy" by any means. Pettersson's language is always uncompromising. Though not by any stretch of the imagination an atonalist, his music is characterized by a harsh and tragic sense of dissonance. Still this work is infused with song...literally. The basis for the work is several quotes from his semimal and autobiographical cycle the Barefoot Songs. Behind even the most angry and tense music you sense the spirit of these songs always about to break through to the surface. As a result the piece is alternately despairing and hopeful. It is a deeply human document and a profound call for the values of love and respect in a world that seems devoid of both.
The symphony is fairly short from a Petterssonian standpoint, lasting only 38 minutes in this version. The disc is rounded out by a work composed by conductor Peter Ruzicka. This work is developed from the fragments of the projected Symphony No. 17, left incomplete at Pettersson's death. In the best of circumstances it is hard to evaluate the completion of unfinished works by other composers. Questions still linger 40 years later about the "completion" of the Mahler 10th by Derrick Cooke....and even more so about the completion of Turandot by Alfano. So to my mind the only thing I will say about Ruzicka's completion of the Symphony No. 17 is that it works as music, though whether or not it is Allan Pettersson's music I won't say.
The performance on this disc is up to CPO's usual high standard. Ruzicka and the DDRO Berlin deliver a deeply felt and very moving rendering of Pettersson's symphony. The sound is uniformly excellent. The symphony is a worthy addition to CPO's already highly touted transveral of the Pettersson Symphonies. Though this is far from the most representative or moving of AP's 15 finished and available symphonies (No. 17 remained unfinished and No. 1 was withdrawn and presumably destroyed) it is still a wonderful disc and recommended to Pettersson completists and those who are interested in the composer but put off by his more astringent symphonies from 8 to 12.
Chris has a good overall review, some good comments there.
Chris and i came to Pettersson by the same sym, same recording, as he told me 3 yrs ago. Was the 14th/Comissiona/label caprice?
Its a good performance, but prefer the CPO.
However Chris came to Pettersson long before I did, when he was in his late teens if I recall he said.
I also may have made the connection with Pettersson in my 20's when i first came to CM, had I heard the 7th. But not the Dorati, i can't stand that 7th. Other of his syms may have been a challenge as i was at that time most into Ravel, Debussy, Mozart and Rachmaninov, Vaughan Williams 5th sym some Prokofiev and not much else , Easy listenings.
I came to P in 1999 or 2000.
Well, Paul, Shostakovich and Pettersson are my favorite composers... Shostakovich being a far, far (the echo keeps going ;D) second. Nah, not that far, but Pettersson is untouchable to me.
Quote from: Varg on February 11, 2008, 02:43:33 PM
Well, Paul, Shostakovich and Pettersson are my favorite composers... Shostakovich being a far, far (the echo keeps going ;D) second. Nah, not that far, but Pettersson is untouchable to me.
I agree. As much as i like most of Shostakovich's syms , Pettersson's syms strike deeper, the listening experience more gripping, more personal.
The Shostkovichians may find this difficult to believe or accept.
As you know Shostakovich has been a powerful force on the world stage for over a half a century.
The name Pettersson has yet to be known.
Think about that. But as you say its not right to compare the 2. Its like comparing Schonberg to Berg to Webern. Impossible in a sense.
Here's some deep connections I see
Debussy and Ravel
Shostakovich, Pettersson, i would like to place Alfred Schnittke along side these 2, but for some reason i hear Schnittke in a category all by himself, same way as I hear Mozart. I do not accept this association,
Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, though we see it too often for drawing a category of superlatives.
The last close association is the 3 great second viennese, but with an added 4th composer
Schonberg, Berg, Webern, Carter
Quote from: paulb on February 09, 2008, 01:38:46 PM
I've heard these type comments about Bruckner, Beethoven's and especially Mahler's syms. "I love _,_,_ movements, but not the _" But never about the Shostakovich 5,7,8 syms.
i have.... i wrote what i thought a long time ago on the listening thread and someone mentioned they could "sort of understand what i mean by that". I also haven't been moved by the 8th, and have listened twice...... the 5th took awhile until i could say that i actually like it. (so the 8th may take awhile too maybe)
while we're on the subject of Shostakovich, I'm currently listening to this very very fine CD:
Quote# Trio for piano & strings No. 1 in C minor, Op. 8
Composed by Dmitry Shostakovich
with Stockholm Arts Trio
# Trio for piano & strings No. 2 in E minor, Op. 67
Composed by Dmitry Shostakovich
with Stockholm Arts Trio
# Suite of Romances (7) for soprano & piano trio, Op. 127
Composed by Dmitry Shostakovich
with Anita Soldh, Stockholm Arts Trio
Now, what is that theme during the last movement of the 2nd Piano Trio? Is that a theme from one of his or Bartok's SQs? I can't remember.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 12, 2008, 06:51:58 AM
while we're on the subject of Shostakovich, I'm currently listening to this very very fine CD:
Now, what is that theme during the last movement of the 2nd Piano Trio? Is that a theme from one of his or Bartok's SQs? I can't remember.
Go back to the
C Minor Quartet, Opus 110 ;)
Those
Seven Blok Romances, Opus 127 are exquisite, too.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 12, 2008, 07:12:28 AM
Go back to the C Minor Quartet, Opus 110 ;)
Those Seven Blok Romances, Opus 127 are exquisite, too.
ah, ok ;D
yeah, that op.127 is undoubtedly a masterpiece!!! :o
just finished it...... you can tell it's late Shostakovich, especially around the beginning where the singing sounds similar to in the 14th symphony. All 3 works on this disc are amazing, what a discovery! :o
Quote from: paulb on February 11, 2008, 05:58:12 PM
I agree. As much as i like most of Shostakovich's syms , Pettersson's syms strike deeper, the listening experience more gripping, more personal.
The Shostkovichians may find this difficult to believe or accept.
As you know Shostakovich has been a powerful force on the world stage for over a half a century.
The name Pettersson has yet to be known.
Think about that.
But as you say its not right to compare the 2. Its like comparing Schonberg to Berg to Webern. Impossible in a sense.
Here's some deep connections I see
Debussy and Ravel
Shostakovich, Pettersson, i would like to place Alfred Schnittke along side these 2, but for some reason i hear Schnittke in a category all by himself, same way as I hear Mozart. I do not accept this association, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, though we see it too often for drawing a category of superlatives.
The last close association is the 3 great second viennese, but with an added 4th composer
Schonberg, Berg, Webern, Carter
Schnittke, really? I have his 8th symphony and i dont even listen to it anymore. But that's the only work i know of Schnittke. Maybe you could give me some recommendations? And what do you think about his 8th?
Quote from: Varg on February 12, 2008, 12:43:12 PM
Schnittke, really? I have his 8th symphony and i dont even listen to it anymore. But that's the only work i know of Schnittke. Maybe you could give me some recommendations? And what do you think about his 8th?
Sure, go to the Schnittke forum, there is a great place to discover this *polystylistic* composer.
see ya on the Schnittke topic.
Paul, please; no one here is a "Shostakovichian" which is a notion you invented, as a projection upon others of the fanaticism with which you attach yourself to
Pettersson.
Having said that:
Quote from: paulb on February 11, 2008, 05:58:12 PM
As much as i like most of Shostakovich's syms, Pettersson's syms strike deeper, the listening experience more gripping, more personal.
I can hear yet with my own ears, and I hear no such matter.
I certainly don't find
Pettersson's symphonies "more personal."
And, in fact, I find
Shostakovich's symphonies deeper and more gripping.
Let it go,
Paul. Say what you like to express appreciation for
Pettersson. You aren't going to make your point by any need to 'talk down' other composers, many of them greater than
Pettersson.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 12, 2008, 01:49:07 PM
Let it go, Paul.
Never.
I said no such thing that Shostakovich is *inferior* to Pettersson.
How i feel about both was said in an earlier post. It will stand.
This might be of interest to you, Paul:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6011.0.html
Quote from: paulb on February 12, 2008, 02:19:04 PM
It will stand.
It's an opinion. Listen to you:
it will stand. You'd think you just built a monument.
Few opinions are made of marble.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 14, 2008, 04:30:17 AM
It's an opinion. Listen to you: it will stand. You'd think you just built a monument.
Few opinions are made of marble.
But they can be set in stone. ;)
Ah well - during the 1980s Havergal Brian was my composer of the century. That's what enthusiasm and identification can do to you. I recognise it...
Quote from: paulb on February 12, 2008, 02:19:04 PM
It will stand.
(http://www.timesguardian.com/2007/092607/Judge%20with%20Gavel.jpg)
Quote from: Jezetha on February 14, 2008, 04:43:45 AM
But they can be set in stone. ;)
Ah well - during the 1980s Havergal Brian was my composer of the century. That's what enthusiasm and identification can do to you. I recognise it...
We're here for you, bud! 8)
dm:
Here come de judge!
Sef has formulated an inquiry relating to Pettersson's VC #2; specifically, Sef queries "Can anyone tell me whether the newer release on CPO is worth finding?"
The CPO version is different from the original version which is on the Caprice label, may be hard to find.
Yes start with the CPO, and later try to find the Caprice.
Both have their worth.
The finest violin concerto ever written, IM humble, honest O :)
But definetly not for the weak at heart.
OK I just listened again to the second violin concerto and it is really rather good. Quite brilliant. Ignore my post on the first page! What is the background and story to this piece?
Quote from: Guido on February 16, 2008, 04:43:23 PM
OK I just listened again to the second violin concerto and it is really rather good. Quite brilliant. Ignore my post on the first page! What is the background and story to this piece?
I know what you are thinking
Something this potent full of raw power and energy, unlike anything you've ever heard, whats behind it, what was Pettersson trying to get across and what was going on in his life at the time.
Good luck, I can only listen and intuit what he's trying to get across. Each time i listen, which is rare as the work is too overwhelming, i gather pieces of his message.
in 10-20 yrs I'll know very clearly his language, the meaning. I'm too young to know fully right now.
and i assume you have the CPO? The *revised version*, "the watered down version"
Unless I have you mixed up Paul, are you saying the Caprice is superior? This version is available on the naxosmusiclibrary. Even if you don't have a subscription, and you don't mind choosing the right place to start in the piece, you can listen to 15 minutes free - just in case you want an idea of how it may differ from the CPO. As I don't own the CPO, my question was whether it was worth the effort to find it given that I can listen to the Caprice when I like on Naxos?
Hi Sef
I was not aware Naxos had a recording.
i have the CPO and Caprice.
Yes the Caprice is the original, and it was suggested to Pettersson by a few acquaintances (he had no real close friends) that he might consider to *tone it own a bit*. = *water it down a bit*.
S the original has been compromised in the revised version/CPO.
that said i am still happy to have the CPO, as the Caprice really isa demanding.
When i said the 2nd vc is the greatest vc ever composed, IM humble honest O, I am speaking of the original. though a case can be made for the revised as well.
It would have been nice for CPO to include both vc's and the chamber concertos in the complete sym set offering. But then the price would be over the $100 mark.
Naxos don't. But they do stream the Caprice! $15 a month though. Not available on the $20 a year subscription unfortunately.
Quote from: Sef on February 16, 2008, 06:55:16 PM
Naxos don't. But they do stream the Caprice! $15 a month though. Not available on the $20 a year subscription unfortunately.
Pretty amazing, this technology. Especially when it concerns one of THE greatest vc's ever written, and the cd is OOP.
Now this is a very positive thing in the classical musical industry.
But with me, I need to feel the cd in my hands, and play it on mysystem.
however this *streaming* isa good way to know the work , w/o having to fork out $$.
The $20/month fee is well worth it just to hear this vc each month, all else is bonus.
very surprising to see Naxos offer this cd on its services.
Do you know if they offer the sym 12 /Caprice?
$15 (or 15 Euros) a month. And yes, Symphony 12 on Caprice (with Concerto for Strings No. 1) is there. I'm listening to it now. They say that it is CD, or near CD quality. If I had a computer worth its salt then I might be able to test that claim. I for one don't really care about "feeling" a CD cover but it has to be good quality. Maybe I need to upgrade my PC next, or at least buy a decent sound card and speakers.
WOW sym 12/caprice as well.
Not sure why Naxos would include such stream offerings on a unknown composers, and cds that are OOP.
Now everyone can acess this music. I am not in favor of streaming, downloads , as it takes away from cd sales.
But in a case like this, its a very good thing.
Will the Naxos site allow for downloading of those 2 cds onto your computer's harddrive?
Yes you want to get a good speaker system for your computer to hear these 2 recordings.
Does Naxos offer other OOP recordings from other labels?
Good grief, not more of this stupid thread. Petterson was a third-rate composer at absolute best- what is all this???
Quote from: Sean on February 17, 2008, 09:46:48 AM
Good grief, not more of this stupid thread. Petterson was a third-rate composer at absolute best- what is all this???
Our dearest
Sean:
Thank you for that blast of reality. It's appropriate for us to realign our composer hierarchies in light of this new information .........
No Paul, no downloading allowed. Listen as much as you want though. In time, the centre of all music and entertainment systems in the home will be a computer. The subscription model of music delivery is one I think that will ultimately prevail, and I would not be surprised if CDs become a thing of the past in a few years. Technology moves on so quickly that it's hard to see where's it will ultimately lead, and there's a lot of opportunity for some to make big business out of it - those with vision that is. The rest will fall beside the way. In the meantime I have decided to let my local public library purchase the CPO VC2 on my behalf. That way, not only can I enjoy it (albeit in 3 months time when they finally get it), but it will be available for all. Win-win I say!
As for your other questions. It is a legitimate site, so royalties are paid according to what you listen to. All you are not paying for is the physical media. The best way to see what they have is to search the catalog at www.naxosmusiclibrary.com - choose the free 15 minute trial and take a quick tour. Happy browsing.
Quote from: Sean on February 17, 2008, 09:46:48 AM
Good grief, not more of this stupid thread. Petterson was a third-rate composer at absolute best- what is all this???
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning... ::)
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 17, 2008, 12:25:18 PM
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning... ::)
oh, he doesn't sleep in a bed.....
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3740/sssbz9.jpg)
Yes I have the Caprice recording. The piece seems to me to be, to put it crudely' some kind of journey, probably spiritual, from beginning to end. The way it goes from almost atonal hystronics to almost completely tonal calm at the end and every degree in between, gradually peeling away the violence and dissonance, seems to be a brilliantly accomplished instance of a fairly common idea in 20th century composition. Or is this to be seen as a purely musical idea?
I am far from convinced on his symphonies though... I said that a year ago about the VC, so maybe I just need time! I will listen to that CD you sent me Sean.
Some of his symphonies makes a powerful emotional impact (and I love them); that doesn't in my view automatically make him a great composer (which I doubt he is).
Quote from: erato on February 17, 2008, 11:37:53 PM
Some of his symphonies makes a powerful emotional impact (and I love them); that doesn't in my view automatically make him a great composer (which I doubt he is).
I guess it depends on how one defines greatness in classical music. In his chosen niche (mostly focusing on symphonies), he could certainly achieve greatness, as with the 7th, which is both powerfully moving and beautifully constructed.
Making an emotional impact is certainly only one aspect of a great work, lots of popular music stirs the emotions very powerfully.
Quote from: Grazioso on February 18, 2008, 04:18:29 AM
. In his chosen niche he could certainly achieve greatness,
As a admirer of Shostakovich's 1st vc, i do feel Pettersson surpasses Shostakovich.
The Pettersson 2nd vc is the finest vc ever written.
His syms will be acknowledge, but that will take some decades. For many reasons.
He's already a great composer, just not acknowledged due to lack of awareness.
And no other composer matches his 12th in the genre of choral sym.
Beethoven's 9th comes awefully close ;)
Wasn't it Bloch that wrote "Voice in the Wilderness"?
Quote from: paulb on February 18, 2008, 06:07:46 AMAnd no other composer matches his 12th in the genre of choral sym.
I like Pettersson, but I feel it's time for you to calm down now! 8)
Quote from: erato on February 17, 2008, 11:37:53 PM
Some of his symphonies makes a powerful emotional impact (and I love them); that doesn't in my view automatically make him a great composer (which I doubt he is).
Quote from: erato on February 18, 2008, 04:34:41 AM
Making an emotional impact is certainly only one aspect of a great work, lots of popular music stirs the emotions very powerfully.
What confuses me is your statement that, on the one hand, you LOVE Pettersson's symphonies; but, on the other hand, you do
NOT think Pettersson is a
great composer. If you LOVE something, doesn't that mean that,
to you personally, it's GREAT? Or perhaps you're saying that it's GREAT to you personally, but it's not GREAT in comparison to other composers .........
Quote from: Dm on February 18, 2008, 12:31:57 PM
What confuses me is your statement that, on the one hand, you LOVE Pettersson's symphonies; but, on the other hand, you do NOT think Pettersson is a great composer. If you LOVE something, doesn't that mean that, to you personally, it's GREAT? Or perhaps you're saying that it's GREAT to you personally, but it's not GREAT in comparison to other composers .........
Love is a subjective judgement and Greatness is objective. Just as I may (example) find that I don't like Beethovens music, I may still be able to realize his greatness. Greatness is NOT subjective. I may love junk food but still realize it is not a gourmet experience.
Failure to separate between what one likes/loves, and what is great art, is a common fallacy on this board. To me it is not confusing at all - but to realize the difference requires some knowledge.
Quote from: erato on February 18, 2008, 12:38:45 PM
Love is a subjective judgement and Greatness is objective. Just as I may (example) find that I don't like Beethovens music, I may still be able to realize his greatness. Greatness is NOT subjective. I may love junk food but still realize it is not a gourmet experience.
Failure to separate between what one likes/loves, and what is great art, is a common fallacy on this board. To me it is not confusing at all - but to realize the difference requires some knowledge.
I'm glad you used the word "fallacy" ....... Because the common fallacy at GMG and elsewhere is that somewhere, somehow there exists an objective set of criteria against which we can determine and measure artistic "greatness." Where can I find this list of "factors which determine the level of artistic greatness"?
At the end of the day, just as LOVE is ultimately subjective, so too is GREATNESS ultimately subjective.
In my case, everything which I LOVE, I also consider to be GREAT.
I love Beethoven's music, and I think it's great. But whether other people think it's great makes no difference TO ME.
To love something is to deem it worthy of greatness.
I love my Audi and find it great for my driving needs, but a Ferrari it ain't.
Quote from: erato on February 18, 2008, 01:08:21 PM
I love my Audi and find it great for my driving needs, but a Ferrari it ain't.
"I love Pettersson and I find his music to be great for my aesthetic, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual needs ...... But a Beethoven he ain't ........"
Quote from: erato on February 18, 2008, 01:08:21 PM
I love my Audi and find it great for my driving needs, but a Ferrari it ain't.
But they are both
great automobiles.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 18, 2008, 01:53:53 PM
But they are both great automobiles.
Sarge
not if you live in the city.....
Don't forget that the Caprice disc has an ESSENTIAL filler: a collection of the Barefoot Songs that includes the one that Pettersson works ou as the epilogue to his concerto. This incredibly moving catharsis goes for naught if you don't know its original garb. Exactly the same as the Berg concerto and the Bach Cantata 60. Ican't imagine anyone pretending to 'know' the Berg concerto with no prior knowledge of the Bach chorale. This is clearly a case (CPO) where a huge opportunity was lost.
Quote from: Dm on February 18, 2008, 01:05:38 PM
I'm glad you used the word "fallacy" ....... Because the common fallacy at GMG and elsewhere is that somewhere, somehow there exists an objective set of criteria against which we can determine and measure artistic "greatness." Where can I find this list of "factors which determine the level of artistic greatness"?
At the end of the day, just as LOVE is ultimately subjective, so too is GREATNESS ultimately subjective.
In my case, everything which I LOVE, I also consider to be GREAT.
I love Beethoven's music, and I think it's great. But whether other people think it's great makes no difference TO ME.
To love something is to deem it worthy of greatness.
The problem with that kind of thinking, is that it leads to the conclusion that the music that is loved by the most, also then must be the greatest music. And that the billions of people enjoying it, are automatically right and immune to any arguments that they ought to listen to better stuff. By that criterion, Petterson is certainly very close to the bottom on the greatness scale.
I fully realize the problems of meting out criteria for artistic greatness, and that this requires knowledge and study (and even then te scholars don't always agree); but that doesn't mean these criteria doesn't exist.
Quote from: erato on February 18, 2008, 02:40:56 PM
The problem with that kind of thinking, is that it leads to the conclusion that the music that is loved by the most, also then must be the greatest music. And that the billions of people enjoying it, are automatically right and immune to any arguments that they ought to listen to better stuff. By that criterion, Petterson is certainly very close to the bottom on the greatness scale.
And by that criterion, Brittney Spears is at the top of the greatness scale. :P
Billions of flies can't be wrong; turds are great!!!!
Quote(and even then the scholars don't always agree)
Amen, brother!
Not only do scholars NOT agree, but they often are found to have deeply flawed perceptions when viewed in historical context. Back in 1799,
C.H. Graun was considered to be one of the "top 4" greatest composers, along with Handel, Bach and Haydn. Today, Graun is nowhere to be found. Most of Schubert's works were barely appreciated when he was alive. Brahms's First Piano Concerto was hissed at and his violin concerto was dismissed by scholars.
If
you love something, it's because, for a variety of reasons,
you think it's great. Would you love something more just because numerous other, highly educated scholars also think it's "great"? Would you love something less just because other people deem it to be not "great"?
The tree which we call
Bruce O. Hodges has yielded some fruit. What sayeth Bruce?
Quote from: bhodges on February 23, 2008, 11:18:43 AM
Pettersson: Symphony No. 12 "The Dead of the Square" (1974) (Honeck/Swedish Radio and Eric Ericson Chamber Choirs/Swedish Radio SO) - After stumbling across this disc, and since I like choral music in general--and these two groups in particular--it seemed like a good bet. (It's my introduction to this composer.)
Inspired by events in Chile, the work is part political protest with texts by Pablo Neruda, and (at least on first hearing) very Mahlerian in scope, but Pettersson freely mixes more dissonance with his tonality. From the review on MusicWeb: "...often touched with desperation as the deaths and injustices perpetrated in Chile are tracked as emblematic of social injustices on an international stage." The overall effect is agitated, tormented, bleak. The performances by Manfred Honeck, the two expert choirs and the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra are all marvelous, and the sound effectively captures what must be a stage crammed with musicians.
--Bruce
Quote from: Dm on February 24, 2008, 01:28:46 PM
The tree which we call Bruce O. Hodges has yielded some fruit. What sayeth Bruce?
;D
Are you a Pettersson fan? (I haven't really followed much of this thread.)
--Bruce
Hi Bruce. We didn't realize that you were a Pettersson fan ........ But we're glad that you reviewed the Twelfth , and made the review available to us via transplantation ......... 0:) ....... Keep those reviews coming ........ :D
Quote from: Dm on February 24, 2008, 01:43:10 PM
Hi Bruce. We didn't realize that you were a Pettersson fan ........ But we're glad that you reviewed the Twelfth , and made the review available to us via transplantation ......... 0:) ....... Keep those reviews coming ........ :D
It's the first one I've heard, and I gather that all of them are quite different from one another. Apparently this one (from 2006) was the last recording in that CPO cycle.
--Bruce
Don't know if anyone else posted this yet, but you can watch all of Pettersson 7 on youtube !
Check it out here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEOKf3pVn-o).
thx xantus ... Well, I guess it's obvious, but have you realized the main motive of #7 is the reversed motive of beethoven #5/1.st mvmt?
Quote from: Xantus' Murrelet on February 24, 2008, 04:41:31 PM
Don't know if anyone else posted this yet, but you can watch all of Pettersson 7 on youtube !
Check it out here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEOKf3pVn-o).
cool! After listening to this yesterday, I was actually able to finally play back a lot of the symphony through the rest of the day. A lot of it is just minimalist-type repetition of motives, sort of in the style of Phillip Glass!
Quote from: Xantus' Murrelet on February 24, 2008, 04:41:31 PM
Don't know if anyone else posted this yet, but you can watch all of Pettersson 7 on youtube !
Check it out here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEOKf3pVn-o).
Just watched the whole thing ....... Wow! ....... Seeing that live is an extraordinary experience! ........ Thanks!
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 26, 2008, 05:14:22 AM
thx xantus ... Well, I guess it's obvious, but have you realized the main motive of #7 is the reversed motive of beethoven #5/1.st mvmt?
Yes, it resembles the reverse (inverse mirror image) of LvB's 4-note motif. But Pettersson's 4-note motif morphs throughout the symphony, including becoming a 5-note motif for the final half ....... :)
But it is a curious observation, nevertheless ......... 8)
Quote from: Xantus' Murrelet on February 24, 2008, 04:41:31 PM
Check it out here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEOKf3pVn-o).
Allan Pettersson: Symphony 7 Recorded in Berwaldhallen in Stockholm, Sweden. Sergiu Comissiona is conducting the Swedish Radio Symphonic Orchestra.
Apparently, this derives from a TV broadcast recorded on a VHS tape (not great, but certainly acceptable). The first 8 seconds (+/-) are missing; and, typical of YOUTUBE, the 40-minute symphony is divided into several subparts, thereby foreclosing seamless viewing. But because there is no other way to view this performance (that I am aware of), I will happily accept it, and embrace it, warts 'n all.
1/5 http://www.youtube.com/v/mEOKf3pVn-o&feature=related
2/5 http://www.youtube.com/v/Pjz6Ep4iFFY&feature=related
3/5 http://www.youtube.com/v/QPNsCYANsUw&feature=related
4/5 http://www.youtube.com/v/cqwr5tS2BA0&feature=related
5/5 http://www.youtube.com/v/GwCmQCJ3Vxk&feature=related
The tam-tam climax in the middle of the symphony was a goosebump moment for me.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 26, 2008, 05:14:22 AM
thx xantus ... Well, I guess it's obvious, but have you realized the main motive of #7 is the reversed motive of beethoven #5/1.st mvmt?
That's true!
If the Beethoven motive is "2-2-2-1", the Pettersson motive is "1-2-2-2" (with an added "2" three pulsations later).
I finally understand the 7th symphony......
and man....
now that I do, I can't possibly say how much I enjoy it, how moving it is!
it really is the most pessimistic music in the universe, and for that (and repeated listenings) i'm really starting to understand it...
here's a man who's not afraid to put all his cards on the table, since there is nothing to lose anyways....
but what really SUCKS is that they have no other Pettersson symphonies on youtube. I'd love to listen to 6 and 8 again..... but I really don't want to spend any money for CDs. I'll have to check around, though....
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 26, 2008, 02:35:10 PM
I finally understand the 7th symphony......
and man....
now that I do, I can't possibly say how much I enjoy it, how moving it is!
it really is the most pessimistic music in the universe, and for that (and repeated listenings) i'm really starting to understand it...
Greg, I agree.
When you listen to it, does your mind formulate an image (in the background / foreground) ......... like what the music is about or what's happening while this bleak music is playing?
I have an image, and it's very bleak.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 26, 2008, 02:35:10 PM
but what really SUCKS is that they have no other Pettersson symphonies on youtube. I'd love to listen to 6 and 8 again..... but I really don't want to spend any money for CDs. I'll have to check around, though....
Again I agree, but at the same time, I'm very grateful that the SEVENTH is available. But it does whet your appetite for MORE PETTERSSON.
Quote from: Xantus' Murrelet on February 24, 2008, 04:41:31 PM
Don't know if anyone else posted this yet, but you can watch all of Pettersson 7 on youtube !
Check it out here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEOKf3pVn-o).
Just listened to the first bit. Sound like a great performance. The opening has a greater sense of urgency than the Dorati or the alternatives on BIS or CPO. I wish DGG would reissue the Comissions No 8 (Baltimore SO) but that is probably wishful thinking. The recently issued Symphony "Da Pacem Domine" by Ross Edwards reminded me a bit of the slow movement of the Pettersson, although the Edwards score is a much more minimalist work.
Voilà!
Pettersson, Symphony No. 8, Sergiu Comissiona, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra:
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981649/1_Symphony_No._8_1_comissiona.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981650/2_Symphony_No._8_2_comissiona.mp3
Quote from: Jezetha on May 27, 2008, 03:09:10 AM
Pettersson, Symphony No. 8, Sergiu Comissiona, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra:
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981649/1_Symphony_No._8_1_comissiona.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981650/2_Symphony_No._8_2_comissiona.mp3
Thank you very much - this is something I am interested in too :)
Thanks, Johan!
And further thanks from here. I think the 8th is probably my favourite Pettersson symphony, so it will be interesting to hear an alternative take to Segerstam's.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 27, 2008, 03:09:10 AM
Voilà!
Pettersson, Symphony No. 8, Sergiu Comissiona, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra:
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981649/1_Symphony_No._8_1_comissiona.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981650/2_Symphony_No._8_2_comissiona.mp3
Merci :)
Quote from: Jezetha on May 27, 2008, 03:09:10 AM
Voilà!
Pettersson, Symphony No. 8, Sergiu Comissiona, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra:
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981649/1_Symphony_No._8_1_comissiona.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/117981650/2_Symphony_No._8_2_comissiona.mp3
I hate you! Now I just wet my pants from excitement! ;D
0:)
Quote from: Dm on May 26, 2008, 05:48:51 PM
Greg, I agree.
When you listen to it, does your mind formulate an image (in the background / foreground) ......... like what the music is about or what's happening while this bleak music is playing?
I have an image, and it's very bleak.
Yes, and it's very bleak, too.......
so many thoughts arise in my mind. I could write a LOT about this. I'll try to write what I can think of now.
I'd like to think of his music (especially this symphony) as being an extension (the final?) of Mahler/Wagner Romanticism, it's destination maybe, in spirit (not style).
Where with Mahler you have conflicting emotions at the same time in the last two symphonies (ecstasy and despair in one breath), Pettersson is much more focused on despair. Mahler's 10th is like looking into the light and being pushed back into the darkness, but Pettersson is like having been pushed into the darkness and resolving that there's no escape. It really does sound to me like the musical expression of someone confined to his apartment the rest of his life.
And I think sometimes of stuff like what it must be like to die in war, being full of hopes and dreams, but ending up dead on the ground as a corpse, dying "just because"..... nothing you can do about it. Just the way it is. And forever those dreams never come true.... I often have dreams of tornados, where I stand there, waiting for them to get me (and i just had a dream last night about being in one).... this fits in with the mood of this music.
Also, I can see Dm's thoughts, which maybe have to deal something with the fall of society. I don't even wanna think about the future, internationally. We're all just waiting for the next big, bad thing to happen and hopefully we aren't directly involved.
My last Pettersson upload:
http://rapidshare.com/files/118224928/Pettersson_-_Symphony_No._6__Okko_Kamu_-_vinyl_rip_.mp3
I got this from Usenet. The original poster wrote:
Allan Pettersson
Symphony No. 6
Norrköping Symphony Orchestra
Okko Kamu. conductor
From CBS Masterworks 76553 (European LP)
in-concert recording, April 11, 1976
Truly rare and stunning performance!
And I agree.
This one is even more appreciated ;D I found the CPO recording of the 6th to be among the most satisfying of their cycle, so it will be interesting to hear whether this can top it.
Quote from: Lethe on May 28, 2008, 12:59:28 AM
This one is even more appreciated ;D I found the CPO recording of the 6th to be among the most satisfying of their cycle, so it will be interesting to hear whether this can top it.
This is fine but the best of the CPO set are conducted by Francis.
In the other symphonies Segerstam trumps CPO but the BIS discs are pricey.
BIS, however, need to continue their excellent work and persuade Segerstam to record the rest of the cycle.
Quote from: Hector on May 28, 2008, 04:24:36 AM
This is fine but the best of the CPO set are conducted by Francis.
In the other symphonies Segerstam trumps CPO but the BIS discs are pricey.
BIS, however, need to continue their excellent work and persuade Segerstam to record the rest of the cycle.
The silly thing about the BIS cycle is that it seems to have stopped without them even recording the 6th. But they did see fit to record two pointless earlier ones... talk about counter-productive... 0:)
Quote from: Lethe on May 28, 2008, 04:30:13 AM
The silly thing about the BIS cycle is that it seems to have stopped without them even recording the 6th. But they did see fit to record two pointless earlier ones... talk about counter-productive... 0:)
Also a silly but a very serious thing is that BIS has troubles to keep themselves above water, hence the many BIS recordings that are licensed out.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 27, 2008, 10:59:55 PM
My last Pettersson upload:
Allan Pettersson
Symphony No. 6
Thanks, Johan...you're the man!
Sarge
Just finished listening to the 6th.....thanks for uploading it, Jezetha!
As for the 8th, I listened twice yesterday and once today, experiencing some of the strangest emotions ever while listening. It's hard to describe, but the best comparison I can think of is like being in a deep sleep and confronting all sorts of fears in your dreams.... but that's the closest i can get to describing it. After that, there's just no words, it's very different.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 28, 2008, 08:03:05 AM
As for the 8th, I listened twice yesterday and once today, experiencing some of the strangest emotions ever while listening. It's hard to describe, but the best comparison I can think of is like being in a deep sleep and confronting all sorts of fears in your dreams.... but that's the closest i can get to describing it. After that, there's just no words, it's very different.
What you are saying is, I think, that Pettersson touches existential depths inside the listener if he or she is attuned to his musical language and temperament...
He doesn't speak as strongly to me as he obviously does to you, but his music doesn't leave me cold; on the contrary - he disturbs me so much that I can't listen to him very often.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 28, 2008, 09:18:19 AM
What you are saying is, I think, that Pettersson touches existential depths inside the listener if he or she is attuned to his musical language and temperament...
yes, exactly......
and it connects deeply with the pessimistic attitude towards life that I've developed over the years....
Quote from: Jezetha on May 28, 2008, 09:18:19 AM
He doesn't speak as strongly to me as he obviously does to you, but his music doesn't leave me cold; on the contrary - he disturbs me so much that I can't listen to him very often.
Yeah, I think I should already take a break from him. Got his music playing back in my mind, although it's good to confront the demons every now and then, it sure isn't healthy all the time!
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 28, 2008, 09:34:27 AM
Yeah, I think I should already take a break from him. Got his music playing back in my mind, although it's good to confront the demons every now and then, it sure isn't healthy all the time!
No, it isn't. More life-affirming composers are in order, I think...
Wow @ the Comissiona 8th - this is better than the CPO, and has highlighted to me for the first time just how amazing the first couple of minutes are. I used to find it quite "easy-going" (if such a word could be applied) compared to the previous two symphonies, but it is very uncomfortable now. Amazing how Pettersson can ruin your mood by what are very tonal - and out of context, not that creepy - tunes. It's the relentless series of one after the other that makes it difficult.
Quote from: Lethe on May 28, 2008, 09:50:40 AM
Wow @ the Comissiona 8th - this is better than the CPO, and has highlighted to me for the first time just how amazing the first couple of minutes are. I used to find it quite "easy-going" (if such a word could be applied) compared to the previous two symphonies, but it is very uncomfortable now. Amazing how Pettersson can ruin your mood by what are very tonal - and out of context, not that creepy - tunes. It's the relentless series of one after the other that makes it difficult.
Perhaps Pettersson is the only composer of whom it literally can be said that listening to him is hell. He really makes you suffer (but so does IKEA, another gift from Sweden). ;)
Not to mention ABBA. It should be said that my reaction to the 7th depends on mood. I can often admire and enjoy its beauty, and how well crafted it is, in its pseudo-minimal kind of way. Generally find it a little less depressing than the two on either side because of that...
Quote from: Jezetha on May 27, 2008, 10:59:55 PM
My last Pettersson upload:
http://rapidshare.com/files/118224928/Pettersson_-_Symphony_No._6__Okko_Kamu_-_vinyl_rip_.mp3
I got this from Usenet. The original poster wrote:
Allan Pettersson
Symphony No. 6
Norrköping Symphony Orchestra
Okko Kamu. conductor
From CBS Masterworks 76553 (European LP)
in-concert recording, April 11, 1976
Truly rare and stunning performance!
And I agree.
Like the Comissiona Baltimore No 8, I have been waiting for Kamu's No 6 (which I have on an old CBS LP) to appear on CD for decades (it never did), so many thanks Johan :) 6-8 are the greatest in my view (with Violin Concerto No 2 to be his very greatest score).
I dont find the 6th and 8th to be "depressive". Dreamy, hypnotic and highly emotional is how i would describe them, and that is exactly what i like about (his) music. I've been listening to Pettersson's music at least once a day, since a couple of years. It never gets old, even if i'm extremely used it. And it surely isn't hell for me to hear that music!
I forget about everything, even my own self, when i listen to those symphonies. No other composer can take me away like that, and that's one of the many reasons why he's by far my favorite composer.
Of course, I have as yet listened to only a few of the symphonies; but I should not characterize what I have heard as "depressing," either.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 28, 2008, 09:45:20 AM
No, it isn't. More life-affirming composers are in order, I think...
You have my vote there!! :)
I have all the Pettersson symphonies and have admired his music for a long time. I bought the 6th in the Okko Kamu version and the 7th with the Stockholm Philharmonic conducted by Dorati on LP many, many years ago!
But..I cannot bring myself to listen to Pettersson very often. I am NOT going to try to argue that he is over-rated because-clearly-many members of this forum rate him very highly and that is just fine but all I can say is that I DO prefer, as Jezetha puts it, more 'life-affirming' composers. That does not diminish my respect for the music or my admiration for a man who continued to compose in such crushingly difficult personal circumstances.
Quote from: Varg on May 28, 2008, 01:10:56 PM
I dont find the 6th and 8th to be "depressive". Dreamy, hypnotic and highly emotional is how i would describe them, and that is exactly what i like about (his) music. I've been listening to Pettersson's music at least once a day, since a couple of years. It never gets old, even if i'm extremely used it. And it surely isn't hell for me to hear that music!
I forget about everything, even my own self, when i listen to those symphonies. No other composer can take me away like that, and that's one of the many reasons why he's by far my favorite composer.
I am glad you are so attuned to Pettersson that you can listen to him every day, Varg. I think every artist would like so much devotion. Your avatar is Pettersson, mine... - well, I can listen to
Brian every day, which many people would consider quite a chore!
I didn't appreciate Pettersson for decades, but something 'clicked' with the Seventh a few months ago. Then I listened to the Sixth, and that won me over for good. But he is so dark and intense, I simply can't 'enjoy' him (if that's the word) on a regular basis.
My next Pettersson experience will be the Eighth I so kindly uploaded... ;)
Quote from: vandermolen on May 28, 2008, 11:31:47 AM
6-8 are the greatest in my view (with Violin Concerto No 2 to be his very greatest score).
Exactly Jeffrey, that is how I see it! The symphonies that is, the VC2 I have yet to listen to but I will soon. Very very moving music, and I agree with Jezetha, this is not for every day.
Th.
Quote from: Thom on May 28, 2008, 10:34:09 PM
Exactly Jeffrey, that is how I see it! The symphonies that is, the VC2 I have yet to listen to but I will soon. Very very moving music, and I agree with Jezetha, this is not for every day.
Th.
I do not know of a more overwhelmingly moving piece of music than the end of Pettersson's Violin Concerto No 2. I think that it is one of the greatest 20th Century violin concertos, possibly the greatest ,and I do not say this lightly. With Symphony No 6, it is "the long struggle towards the sunrise" (as the notes on my old CBS Kamu LP says), which appeals; ultimately I do find this to be life-affirming music. For me taking Dorati's Decca LP of Symphony 7 out of the record library when I lived in London was my introduction to Pettersson, but I could not listen to him every day. In fact Sibelius is the only composer I can listen to regardless of the mood I'm in. At the moment I'm listening to Miaskovsky; another composer I can listen to frequently.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2008, 12:33:23 AM
I do not know of a more overwhelmingly moving piece of music than the end of Pettersson's Violin Concerto No 2. I think that it is one of the greatest 20th Century violin concertos, possibly the greatest, and I do not say this lightly.
I'll listen to it today.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 29, 2008, 12:50:34 AM
I'll listen to it today.
I hope that you enjoy it (if that's the right word!). There are two CDs:
1 Ida Haendel (whom it was written for), Swedish RSO, Herbert Blomstedt (Caprice). This is the CD of my old LP, which was a revelation to me. The advantage of this is that the CD also contains Pettersson's "Suite from Barefoot Songs", one of which Pettersson uses to very moving effect in the Violin Concerto (especially at the end). The booklet contains some touching photos of Pettersson, by then in a wheel chair, with Ida Haendel.
2 Isabelle van Keulen, Swedish RSO, Thomas Dausgaard (CPO). This is a fine recent recording of the Revised version.
You can't really go wrong with either recording and I like this work so much that I have both.
It is not an easy listening experience (it never really is with Pettersson) but, as with Symphony 6, the end puts a kind of retrospective glow on all the trauma of the earlier sections of the score.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2008, 01:22:59 AM
I hope that you enjoy it (if that's the right word!). There are two CDs:
1 Ida Haendel (whom it was written for), Swedish RSO, Herbert Blomstedt (Caprice). This is the CD of my old LP, which was a revelation to me.
That's the one I have (minus the Barefoot Songs - got it from Usenet...)
Edit: I have the Barefoot Songs with Dorati and Erik Sædén, bass.
Have just listened to it right through (Von Keulen, Dausgaard). I am always in tears at the end (and I do not often cry at music...only when John Terry missed that penalty ;D)
Jeffrey :'(
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2008, 01:59:21 AM
Have just listened to it right through (Von Keulen, Dausgaard). I am always in tears at the end (and I do not often cry at music...only when John Terry missed that penalty ;D)
Jeffrey :'(
Yes, those are the experiences that reach the core of our being... ;)
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2008, 12:33:23 AM
I do not know of a more overwhelmingly moving piece of music than the end of Pettersson's Violin Concerto No 2. I think that it is one of the greatest 20th Century violin concertos, possibly the greatest ,and I do not say this lightly.
I think this is the same thing Xantus said, if i remember correctly....
Just realized there's a recent VC2 performance on CPO:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203719921.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/hnum/7228191)
Anyone having this? EDIT: Ah, Vandermolen has it :)
Quote from: Jezetha on May 27, 2008, 10:59:55 PMhttp://rapidshare.com/files/118224928/Pettersson_-_Symphony_No._6__Okko_Kamu_-_vinyl_rip_.mp3
Ah I see it's the 52:52 one which is floating around for some while now. Has been on Operashare even lossless.
I like the performance, good tempi, good mood overall. The sound goes pretty well with this symphony. But still I like the cleaner CPO more, it has more details. In the Kamu recording the snares often do not appear as expected.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on May 29, 2008, 07:19:59 AM
Ah I see it's the 52:52 one which is floating around for some while now. Has been on Operashare even lossless.
I like the performance, good tempi, good mood overall. The sound goes pretty well with this symphony. But still I like the cleaner CPO more, it has more details. In the Kamu recording the snares often do not appear as expected.
I have it lossless (FLAC), but I couldn't be certain everyone can play those kind of files, so I converted it. I have the CPO, too. I should give it a listen now, just to compare. But first that VC...
I have listened to Pettersson's Second Violin Concerto. I think the inherent soulfulness of the violin makes this work the most approachable of his works I have heard so far. Apart from that, it's simply very inspired. The violin starts singing and doesn't stop. That singing is like a lamp that lights the way in the darkness the music sometimes has to pass through. I agree with vandermolen about the ending - sublimely expressive. Yes, I think this is a great work, too.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 28, 2008, 03:00:35 PM
Of course, I have as yet listened to only a few of the symphonies; but I should not characterize what I have heard as "depressing," either.
Likewise. Tormented, perhaps.
I find that he always allows a chink of light in at the end and it is this element within his symphonies that adds to his interst as a composer.
If he was that depressed or depressing, he was in a lot of physical pain, he would have taken the cliched Swedish way out and committed suicide. He did not, which suggests to me that he retained 'hope,' which I hear in the symphonies.
Quote from: Hector on May 30, 2008, 04:56:45 AMIf he was that depressed or depressing, he was in a lot of physical pain, he would have taken the cliched Swedish way out and committed suicide. He did not, which suggests to me that he retained 'hope,' which I hear in the symphonies.
But which I find is misplaced after the huge lament in the very end of Sym#9.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on May 30, 2008, 05:49:07 AM
But which I find is misplaced after the huge lament in the very end of Sym#9.
OK - So now I need to listen to 9! I have 6-8 (ripped my own 6 from a recently bought second hand LP). VC2 can be found at Naperville public library if you're in the area - thank you NPL for getting that for me! I'm not utterly convinced about the "depressiveness" of 6-8 that others seem so sure about. Yes, I can understand that if you are in that kind of mood then it can take you right to the bottom, and I dare say that "uplifting" is an adjective I wouldn't care to use, but throughout these pieces I see turmoil being resolved into calm. Depending on the mood I can interpret that as acceptance of death, calm after the storm, hope even. Because of that I can listen to Pettersson quite often. Maybe not every day though!
I have another comparison- maybe Pettersson could be considered Bruckner's Gothic counterpart? >:D :D
Quote from: Sef on May 30, 2008, 01:09:56 PM
I'm not utterly convinced about the "depressiveness" of 6-8 that others seem so sure about.
I might've made it sound that way myself, but i don't think it's quite that simple. I think it's more of a
struggle, just straight-out depressing would be something like Rachmaninov, or the end of Tchaikovsky's 6th, music i like but doesn't move me as much as many others.
In fact, I wouldn't even call Mahler depressing, because that'd also be oversimplifying..... it's more like, as I said, ecstatic and depressing in the same breath.
I can't really get into the 6th, maybe eventually..... listened twice, it feels like it just floats about everywhere. But I can't stop listening to the 8th. Sure, it's not perfect and much of it feels awkward or too simple, but it has enough for me to go back again and again.
The two note melody..... and especially the chord progression that occurs repeatedly (see 20'-21' of the 2nd movement)- it's something that is "deep" and "exotic" at the same time. And I do have an imagery of this- for me, it's like 1) dreaming that I'm in Japan or 2) watching anime late at night.
It's Bbm (with a major 7 added) to F major (with a major 7 added, resolved to F major). I hear what is nearly the same progression in Brahms' Paganini Variations, which has like an Amajor-Am-E major (maj7)- E maj type thing going on in some of the variations of Book 1. That one also has given be very specific imagery- walking down at night down the streets of an old neighborhood.
Quote from: Hector on May 30, 2008, 04:56:45 AM
I find that he always allows a chink of light in at the end and it is this element within his symphonies that adds to his interst as a composer.
This is very true, although at the end of VC No 2 it is, for once, something more I think.
I have to listen to Symphony 9 too! I have the CPO CD but never properly listened to it.
I played the CPO recording of the 6th Symphony recently. I made it through to the end, which didn't happen the last few times I tried it, and was actually quite impressed. But I do think that Pettersson worried and niggled at some ideas for too long and I was occasionally exasperated by the work: "Yes, I've got the idea, now move on and do something new!" I've never felt that while listening to the 7th, which I rank as one of the most compelling symphonies of the last century. I might give the 9th and 14th another whirl soon.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 29, 2008, 02:33:15 PM
The violin starts singing and doesn't stop. That singing is like a lamp that lights the way in the darkness the music sometimes has to pass through.
Oh yes, totally agree.
I have a recording of the 6th with Lothar Zagrozek from November 1994 in cologne. The german radiostation WDR (Westdeutscher Rundfunk) recorded many of the Concerts given at the german Pettersson Festival in 1994/95 but on the radio since then i never heard these recordings again.
This recording of the 6th is a very good performance wich is in my opinion one of Petterssons "best" pieces.
I hope someday the WDR will make all the recordings available for the public.
At that time the WDR recorded also the following concerts: 2nd Violin Concerto with Isabelle van Keulen (a very bad performance, not the same as the CPO recording from the later years), the 7th Symphony with Othma M.F. Maga, the 12th Symphony with Ingo Metzmacher (not a good performance and sung in german), the 9th Symphony with Peter Guelke (more than 90 Minutes, very slow), the 16th Symphony and the 2nd Symphony wich i didn´t recorded but it was a very good performance.
In 2011 on the birthday of Allan Pettersson i hope to finish a performance of the available parts of the first Symphony wich has never been recorded since now. I have the partition of that work and i am working with Vienna Library (http://vsl.co.at/) on it. Does anyone here also have this software? You can hear my own compositions wich i made with it on http://www.opus100.de (since 2008)
For a first version of the first Symphony it would be fine to find other enthusiasts who are working with Vienna Library. Does anybody do so?
Good to be here again,
Markus Brylka
http://www.opus100.de
http://www.zann-music.com
http://www.iapg.de (International Allan Pettersson Society)
I'm no musician, can't help you here. Is this a huge library for use in hosts like maybe Sibelius? Anyway, just wanted to express someone's watching this thread. I'm still not through with all symphonies, for me it's basically all about 6-9. Listened (completely) to 10,11 and 13 as well, but hey, it's difficult stuff.
How much (~minutes?) of sym. no. 1 has survived?
The partition of Symphony No. 1 seems to be complete. 136 pages handwriting. Pettersson himself said, that someday this Symphony could be performed but he didn´t write it "clean" so the material is only the original manuskript of the process of composition and a few clearer pages.
You are right, difficult stuff hehe. It takes some time to get an overview to all his music.
Pettersson fest today (WFH!). 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11 in one sitting. Don't have 9 yet but would dearly love it. I would say that 6 has my favour right now, but that can change like the wind.
Did you know that Pettersson's 7th was performed at the Konserthuset Stockholm back in April by conductor Alan Gilbert (of soon to be NYP fame)? Perhaps he may be in the mood for a repeat performance during the 2011 centennial? I know he has guest conducted the CSO, but I would certainly travel to NY to see that!
Quote from: Sef on October 24, 2008, 01:50:20 PM
Pettersson fest today (WFH!). 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11 in one sitting. Don't have 9 yet but would dearly love it. I would say that 6 has my favour right now, but that can change like the wind.
Did you know that Pettersson's 7th was performed at the Konserthuset Stockholm back in April by conductor Alan Gilbert (of soon to be NYP fame)? Perhaps he may be in the mood for a repeat performance during the 2011 centennial? I know he has guest conducted the CSO, but I would certainly travel to NY to see that!
Good grief! You are braver than me :) Six Pettersson symphonies back to back would be far too much ;D He is a composer I can take in single doses only :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 24, 2008, 02:37:23 PM
Good grief! You are braver than me :) Six Pettersson symphonies back to back would be far too much ;D He is a composer I can take in single doses only :)
Ho Ho (Yes I can still laugh) - maybe you become immune to it after a while. I followed up with a dose of "The Swan of Tuonela" just to cap it all off, and lighten the mood!
:) :)
If you are still smiling then I take off my hat to you ;D I think that I would be in a state of terminal depression :)
Oh, I know that's unfair! I DO like Pettersson. It's just, as I said, that I can only take so much :)
My favorite Pettersson symphonies are 12 & 13 with 7 & 6 being next in line. However I would not listen to all four in one sitting - usually one is just right. There is just so much to absorb in this wonderful music.
Which one is the WFH? My favorites, in order: 6,7,8,9 - Still fighting with 10,11,13 ...
Quote from: Wurstwasser on October 26, 2008, 11:05:03 PM
Which one is the WFH? My favorites, in order: 6,7,8,9 - Still fighting with 10,11,13 ...
"WFH" is the best ever. No matter which composer, genre, individual works you either enjoy, or would like to investigate further, then "WFH" is the great enabler. "Working From Home"! Just about the only chance I get to listen to back to back music all day.
Rotfl, I thought it was an Orchestras name. 8) Yes, I like the WFH symphony orchestra very much as well.
I find the 8th a shattering, incredible piece of music. I tend to turn to it time and time again. 7 and 10 would be next. They are all works of massive power and emotion.
Does anyone know what key (or alluded key, or notes) Pettersson's 7th symphony ends in? Thank you...
B minor.
Quote from: Sef on December 03, 2008, 01:38:55 PM
I think the "minor" should be assumed!
I'll just call the key BB Gun, then.
Just wait, it'll be in the text books one day.
No, it won't 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 04, 2008, 04:51:45 AM
No, it won't 8)
Fine, then, I'll just write my own. And I'll write whatever I want. I'll even include a Henning scale if I feel like it.
Quote from: G$ on December 04, 2008, 12:02:18 PM
Fine, then, I'll just write my own. And I'll write whatever I want. I'll even include a Henning scale if I feel like it.
They'll check the source, you know.
We have the 2009 Penguin Guide at the museum shop, and I leafed through it. Found the bit deriding the length of the Ninth, which a neighbor (Colin?) posted.
Two months ago, I shouldn't much have believed it if someone had suggested that I would start a blog. Let alone post on Pettersson (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2008/12/ostinati-do-not-prison-make-do-they.html).
It was indeed I who drew your attention to the Penguin Guide's aversion to Pettersson, Karl(although not on this forum :)).
Your comparison on your blog with the music of Peter Mennin is remarkable! I am about to go out for the afternoon but will give this some thought and return to it later :)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2008, 04:23:06 AM
Two months ago, I shouldn't much have believed it if someone had suggested that I would start a blog. Let alone post on Pettersson (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2008/12/ostinati-do-not-prison-make-do-they.html).
paulb would be pleased ;)
Sarge
Even paulb is entitled to some happiness 0:) ;)
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 05, 2008, 04:34:30 AM
It was indeed I who drew your attention to the Penguin Guide's aversion to Pettersson, Karl(although not on this forum :)).
Ha!
Je me souviens maintenant!
Congrats Karl, you've just saved your soul. Without AP, your life would just have been useless...
Well, I don't know that I've gotten religion to quite that extent.
Bit of goose having the old soul saved, all the same! ;)
I don't think I've ever heard the Ninth.
Maybe I should; it's been the 8th and 10th that have connected most with me thus far.
Quote from: edward on December 05, 2008, 06:17:40 AM
I don't think I've ever heard the Ninth.
Maybe I should; it's been the 8th and 10th that have connected most with me thus far.
The
Ninth blind-sided me. The first disc I had heard was a two-conductor affair (
Doráti being one) with the
Seventh &
Sixteenth . . . time I revisited that disc, too, but my initial response was something like
it has neither my blessing nor my curse.
Now (IIRC) I think I tried taking the cycle in order on a time, but it was rather a desultory affair, and petered out before I might have made my way back to the
Seventh.
I think I may just hit the
Eighth and
Tenth next . . . or, I may just need to be content that I like the
Ninth a great deal 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2008, 06:32:35 AMThe first disc I had heard was a two-conductor affair (Doráti being one) with the Seventh & Sixteenth . . . time I revisited that disc, too, but my initial response was something like it has neither my blessing nor my curse
.
Interesting...the 7th and 16th I'd name as favorites, although I consider the 16th a saxophone concerto rather than a symphony.
Your blog has inspired a re-listen of number nine. I'll do that after dinner.
Sarge
My last words: If you want "success", 6,7,8 - in that order. Believe the wise Wurst. :P
BTW, just curious: how did you find the Gimbel Word document - Google?
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 05, 2008, 09:36:18 AM
BTW, just curious: how did you find the Gimbel Word document - Google?
Yes, and not with any special keywords . . .
pettersson tenth, and it's the first link I see.
Allan Pettersson's Mesto for String Orchestra (Stig Westerberg, Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra):
http://www.mediafire.com/?zmhjnyyrtzw
This work is absolutely marvellous.
Quote from: Jezetha on December 20, 2008, 02:36:26 PM
Allan Pettersson's Mesto for String Orchestra (Stig Westerberg, Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra):
http://www.mediafire.com/?zmhjnyyrtzw
This work is absolutely marvellous.
Is there an avatar change coming? I hope not ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 20, 2008, 03:22:46 PM
Is there an avatar change coming? I hope not ;D
No, Ol' Havergal is still Da Man... ;)
Quote from: Jezetha on December 20, 2008, 03:47:12 PM
No, Ol' Havergal is still Da Man... ;)
I am sure that he would have been delighted to be so hailed ;D
No one has mentioned the only one I haven't heard, No.4.
Please enlighten me.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 25, 2009, 03:51:13 PM
No one has mentioned the only one I haven't heard, No.4.
Please enlighten me.
Someone who is better than I am at distinguishing one Pettersson symphony from another ;D will give you a more detailed response but the 4th is worth hearing. At around 38 minutes it is not too long; it is a transitional work between the early and more mature Pettersson. The single movement format does open the composer to accusations of structural incoherance but there is certainly a good deal of grandeur, shattering Shostakovichian climaxes etc etc.
If you are attuned to the Pettersson wavelength then it is worth adding to your collection. Sometimes I can 'get' Pettersson but on other occasions he just makes me too depressed. Depends on the mood, I find :)
PETTERSSON ALERT!!!
I saw that the Leipzig SQ is releasing the Cto.1 for violin and SQ, and the violin duos.
Finally some competition for the cpo disc (and I'd rather have the duets than the other ju-ve stuff).
Just wish they would release the original Fresk SQ recording.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 29, 2009, 10:45:33 AM
PETTERSSON ALERT!!!
I saw that the Leipzig SQ is releasing the Cto.1 for violin and SQ, and the violin duos.
Do you have a date on that?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 14, 2009, 08:05:33 AM
Do you have a date on that?
Yea, her name is Brenda...but why do I get the feeling you don't care? ;) ::) ;D
Weren't we a busy little beaver this morning? ::) Doing "God's Work" again, are we??? ;D
Quote from: snyprrr on June 14, 2009, 09:10:46 AM
Yea, her name is Brenda...but why do I get the feeling you don't care? ;) ::) ;D
Weren't we a busy little beaver this morning? ::) Doing "God's Work" again, are we??? ;D
So Brenda's beaver was busy? Lucky you!
I've got the Leipzigers playing the Mozart Lucchesi "Prussian" Quartets, and they do a dashed fine job. I still haven't quite made my way through all the Pettersson symphonies, but I should in fact be interesting to hear a concerto for vn & str qt.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 14, 2009, 09:30:00 AM
I should in fact be interesting to hear a concerto for vn & str qt.
Chausson
Lite?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 14, 2009, 09:30:00 AM
I've got the Leipzigers playing the Mozart Lucchesi “Prussian” Quartets, and they do a dashed fine job. I still haven't quite made my way through all the Pettersson symphonies, but I should in fact be interesting to hear a concerto for vn & str qt.
Seriously, I love this piece. Had Honegger had an epiphany just before he died, he may have produced this work. I think it yields only to Schoenberg's String Trio in terms of the late '40s early '50s. After Hindemith's last SQ, then put the Pettersson on.
Quote from: springrite on June 14, 2009, 09:32:01 AM
Chausson Lite?
By no means...Pettersson's
Concerto No.1 is a totally unique conception in my view. Not only does it not "reek" of Pettersson, it also has quite a unique profile for the late '40s. It is intense, AND fun...Pettersson's "diary" of his bicycle ride even contains much "bike" music that I find charming. Slightly similar to
Sessions' String Quintet, though with a more personable profile.
I was just thinking how much I like late Pettersson, and how funny that sounds. I like the twin Symphonies 10-11, the absolute 13th, the "Mozartean" 14th, the bleak 15th,...
the three giant concertos...
... the Symphonic Movement...
Serious question:
Do we need another cycle?
If, then whom?
Quote from: snyprrr on July 16, 2009, 08:40:19 PM
I was just thinking how much I like late Pettersson, and how funny that sounds. I like the twin Symphonies 10-11, the absolute 13th, the "Mozartean" 14th, the bleak 15th,...
the three giant concertos...
... the Symphonic Movement...
Serious question:
Do we need another cycle?
If, then whom?
Of course we do. But in that case it should be by a major orchestra. But since that seems pretty unrealistic, I'll settle for some reissues, Kamu of the 6th and Commissiona's 8th. And I would love it if any of the major orchestras (LSO, Concertgebouw seems more likely than the BPO/WPO) were to do at least a symphony or two.
Quote from: erato on July 16, 2009, 10:29:52 PM
Of course we do. But in that case it should be by a major orchestra(...).
Very true.
In my mind's ears I hear in the Concertgebouw the ideal recording venue for Pettersson's sound world. The deep, resonant, 'contained' acoustic would do wonders in revealing Pettersson's fanatically self-absorbed, inward-looking, outward-reaching orchestral music, with its dark string undercurrents, spare but luminous wind lines and dramatic timpani pounding (not necessarily loud, but thematically and rythmically very important).
Of course, if the house orchestra (the RCO) was playing, that would be
les genoux de l'abeille. But I'd even settle for another dutch orchestra. AFAIK they all cultivate that kind of orchestral sound, and a few of them are technically excellent. Bring Pettersson to Amsterdam !
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 18, 2009, 02:01:41 PM
Very true.
In my mind's ears I hear in the Concertgebouw the ideal recording venue for Pettersson's sound world. The deep, resonant, 'contained' acoustic would do wonders in revealing Pettersson's fanatically self-absorbed, inward-looking, outward-reaching orchestral music, with its dark string undercurrents, spare but luminous wind lines and dramatic timpani pounding (not necessarily loud, but thematically and rythmically very important).
Of course, if the house orchestra (the RCO) was playing, that would be les genoux de l'abeille. But I'd even settle for another dutch orchestra. AFAIK they all cultivate that kind of orchestral sound, and a few of them are technically excellent. Bring Pettersson to Amsterdam !
HEAR HEAR! (And I would be sitting on the balcony, opposite the orchestra)
From May 2009, an interesting appreciation of Pettersson here (http://www.lafolia.com/archive/covell/covell200905pettersson.html) on La Folia, an excellent site for articles on 20th-century and contemporary music. (And reminds me that I need to get to know more of his work.)
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on July 29, 2009, 10:06:12 AM
From May 2009, an interesting appreciation of Pettersson here (http://www.lafolia.com/archive/covell/covell200905pettersson.html) on La Folia, an excellent site for articles on 20th-century and contemporary music. (And reminds me that I need to get to know more of his work.)
--Bruce
THANKS!!
Not crazy about the Twelfth.
I've never heard a Pettersson symphony. What should I start off with? :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 31, 2009, 12:04:05 PM
I've never heard a Pettersson symphony. What should I start off with? :)
7th is the perceived wisdom I think. Followed by 6 and 8 if the fancy still takes you. At least these have interludes of quite the most gorgeous music, during which time you can try to figure out what just hit you.
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 31, 2009, 12:04:05 PM
I've never heard a Pettersson symphony. What should I start off with? :)
I'd rather recommend the
8th, if only for the best 3min. intro of any music anywhere, anyhow!
However, "chamber"nut...you should try the
Concerto No.1 for Violin and SQ. Though it doesn't really "do" the Pettersson "thing", it is one of my favorite "ultimate" chamber works. It's not thaaat easy, but...imagine it being written by late-Honegger, peppered with 1940s Scelsi and 1950s Sessions. (or, maybe a verrry bitter late-Hindemith?,haha)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 31, 2009, 11:59:01 AM
Not crazy about the Twelfth.
Who is? ;D
Quote from: snyprrr on July 31, 2009, 02:43:45 PM
Who is? ;D
Me! But would not recommend it to someone starting to investigate the symphonies. 7th and 6th would be my suggestions.
6,7,8,9 - that order. Or 7,6,8,9.
Ok great! I'll be hunting. :)
Violin Concerto No 2 is his masterpiece IMHO. Otherwise symphonies 7,6,8,2,4 in that order
Quote from: vandermolen on August 01, 2009, 07:22:07 AM
Violin Concerto No 2 is his masterpiece IMHO. Otherwise symphonies 7,6,8,2,4 in that order
I know I asked you this before, but you're the only person mentioning No.4, the only one I haven't heard. 25 words or less? I really enjoyed No.3, but No.2 is still going to take some work on my part.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 01, 2009, 02:22:28 PM
I know I asked you this before, but you're the only person mentioning No.4, the only one I haven't heard. 25 words or less? I really enjoyed No.3, but No.2 is still going to take some work on my part.
No. 4 is one of my favorites. I bought the CPO recording when it was released. Of the earlier syphonies, I prefer it above the better known No. 2, which even after having listened to many times over the past 20 years, I still do not quite get. For me, I would recommend numbers 7, 6, 8 and 4 in that order.
What do you think about the new Pettersson site www.pettersson100.de. Germany has a little problem with the splitting into two Allan Pettersson Societies, the original www.iapg.de and the new one pettersson100.de
NEW RELEASES: CDS
A.Pettersson, Eight Barefoot Songs; Concertos Nos 1 & 2 for String Orchestra, C.Lindberg / Nordic CO
BIS 1690 (72:20)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/BIS-CD-1690_72_150.jpg)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001RX3KZQ/weta909-20)
Barefoot & Beautiful: Allan Pettersson's Music on BIS
Difficult to say whether the eight—of 24—Barefoot Songs on this BIS disc owe their gorgeousness to Allan Pettersson's wistful melodies, or Antal Dorati's sensitive, empathetic (and very extensive) orchestrations.
Who cares. The result is a lushly morbid collection of very fine orchestral songs with a central European romantic heart and darkly Scandinavian air surrounding them. Anders Larsson's baritone is nicely suited to this. Everyone of those Barefoot Songs makes one wish that Dorati had orchestrated all 24—and then regret that Pettersson only set two dozen of his own Barefoot Poems (out of over 100) to music in the first place... (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=780)
continued at http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=780 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=780)
I must confess I had some hesitation about dipping into this world, but I've listened to his 7th Symphony three times this morning and love it. Maybe I'm twisted, but I find this very uplifting, human music, and it was not at all a strain to listen to.
I'm sure I'll be listening to more....
Which recording do you have of the 7th? My favorite is the Dorati.
I've got the CPO version-- the box set. I took the plunge.
Hi everyone - im completely new to Pettersson but someone on the forum did a download for the 9TH Symphony(sorry cant find thread) - anyway have been playing this on an off for past couple of weeks - it so complex and strange my question is does it take shape after a while - there are some beautiful bits but cant get a grip on the work as a whole and also is it typical from the rest of his symphonies
tks
Pettersson was formally quite strong - he does work in huge arches, but the structure is there.
The 9th is quite standard as far as his style goes, but like the rest of his later symphonies it is less accessable than nos.6-8, being in a slightly tougher idiom. Whether this was a deliberate step away from the profusion achingly beautiful melodies interspaced throughout 6-8, or just that he was no longer capable of writing quite such good music, I'm not yet sure.
Quote from: Lethe on November 29, 2009, 03:31:29 PMor just that he was no longer capable of writing quite such good music
I'm pretty sure it's not this!
Quote from: Lethe on November 29, 2009, 03:31:29 PM
Pettersson was formally quite strong - he does work in huge arches, but the structure is there.
The 9th is quite standard as far as his style goes, but like the rest of his later symphonies it is less accessable than nos.6-8, being in a slightly tougher idiom. Whether this was a deliberate step away from the profusion achingly beautiful melodies interspaced throughout 6-8, or just that he was no longer capable of writing quite such good music, I'm not yet sure.
tks lethe - its strange every time i play it i hear something i had not heard before - like something emerging from the mist - and tks yr recommendation for 6-8 - next on my never ending list :)
It's 70mins. long!!!
You're going to be hearing new stuff for a while!
Enjoy!
ha, and wait til you get to 13-14, oo hoo hoo!!!
The old Forum became available again, so here's the links to:
Xantus' Murrelet (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=profile;u=96)s Pettersson Symphony reviews (cpo releases)
Symphony No. 6 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg33411.html#msg33411)
Symphony No. 7 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg35326.html#msg35326)
Symphony No. 8 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg38182.html#msg38182)
Symphony No. 9 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg40074.html#msg40074)
Symphony No. 10 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg46660.html#msg46660)
Symphony No. 11 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg54920.html#msg54920)
Symphony No. 13 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg57793.html#msg57793)
Symphony No. 14 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg72291.html#msg72291)
Symphony No. 15 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.msg140664.html#msg140664)
tks snyprrr - tks for the warning re 13 and 14 mmmm (might have to get the whole lot at this rate :o)
tks also to Wurstwasser - lots of detailed reviews there
not an easy composer to understand but have feeling get more out of it instead of being instantly hooked first play
:-\
Offbeat, have you already listened to Nos. 6-8, maybe 9? You must ;)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 02, 2009, 01:20:27 AM
Offbeat, have you already listened to Nos. 6-8, maybe 9? You must ;)
only 9 at moment - played quite few times and last night finally caught the beauty of the last 10 minutes -
6-8 going to buy - any recommendations ?
Quote from: offbeat on December 02, 2009, 01:17:50 PM
only 9 at moment - played quite few times and last night finally caught the beauty of the last 10 minutes -
6-8 going to buy - any recommendations ?
For 7 & 8, the Segerstam performances on BIS are preferable to those on CPO--more subtle and better sonics.
Quote from: Grazioso on December 03, 2009, 04:07:31 AM
For 7 & 8, the Segerstam performances on BIS are preferable to those on CPO--more subtle and better sonics.
Tks Grazioso -look forward to hearing these - on you tube listened to last 7 minutes of 7th - similar in certain ways to 9th - rather surreal and great beauty :)
Quote from: offbeat on December 03, 2009, 10:11:53 AM
Tks Grazioso -look forward to hearing these - on you tube listened to last 7 minutes of 7th - similar in certain ways to 9th - rather surreal and great beauty :)
The 7th is probably one of his most accessible and conventionally beautiful works--the ending is particularly haunting. It also boasts an impressively subtle structure, with a strong sense of natural organic growth, as opposed to rigid formality.
Quote from: offbeat on December 03, 2009, 10:11:53 AMTks Grazioso -look forward to hearing these - on you tube listened to last 7 minutes of 7th - similar in certain ways to 9th - rather surreal and great beauty :)
Offbeat, you are a lucky man. You haven't listened to Symphony No. 6 yet. I love that symphony as a whole. Highlights: 37:37 in the cpo release. THE Pettersson highlight, if you ask me. And as I mentioned somewhere else: "The dark side of the dark side: Allan Pettersson symphony No. 6, the finale in particular (starting at 57:40 in the cpo release)".
tks again grazioso and wurtzwasser
look forward to hearing them
they said on download the ninth is longest at 70 mins
are all his symphonies around the hour mark
No, there are also some shorter ones. On cpo, only 6, 9 and 13 are longer than an hour. #16 is the shortest at 24 minutes.
Heard Pettersson 15th Symphony for first time today
Despite its rather bleak outlook some wonderful moments here and thats just on first hearing
Yet to hear the more popular 6 7 8 but to me the 15th sounds really special and what
a dramatic ending
Any opinions ?
Quote from: offbeat on December 08, 2009, 02:35:13 PM
Heard Pettersson 15th Symphony for first time today
Despite its rather bleak outlook some wonderful moments here and thats just on first hearing
Yet to hear the more popular 6 7 8 but to me the 15th sounds really special and what
a dramatic ending
Any opinions ?
My first listen to No. 15, a year ago, was an unforgettable experience. I don't know whether I was extraordinarily receptive at the time, but the music really spoke to me. I could follow every bar, like I was reading a big poem. The grandeur of the music was/is incredible. I thought - 'this follows on from late Bruckner! Bruckner went to Stockholm!'
I especially like No.11, and No.10 is in the same way, two 22min. symphonies that don't give you too much to hold on to, but keep you riveted. No.11, in particular, has a melodic line I find quite,...what word is being overused here?,...oh, yes, "haunting".
No.15,...yup.
Vandermolen seems to really like the Violin Cto, too. It's a barn burner, to be sure.
And the Viola Cto.
And the little Symphonic Movement from 1979, 11mins of echt Pettersson.
I still haven't heard No.4. Haven't heard the String Concertos 1-3. Oh, I didn't need to be reminded of that, ugh.
Tks Jezetha/Snyprrr
Must say never occurred to me to connect Pettersson to Bruckner but i suppose the massive structures are similar -a lot of Sibelius too i think - I dont want to be in a great hurry and rush through his other symphonies - think they need to be spaced out due to their complex nature-certainly a unique sound imo...
Jezetha, Snyprrr, Offbeat: it doesn't matter whether you hear 15 before 6, or the violin concerto (2) before symphony 7, or String Concerto 3 before symphonies 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11. Like Bruckner, you know when you've listened to a masterpiece: early, middle, or late.
Pettersson is one of those rare phneomenons of music. We're still collectively appraising his value and importance. It does't matter - at alll ! - that X, Y or Z said 'I told you so' earlier than the general public. As Mahler once said, 'My time will come'
I've reflected on his originality (sheer strangeness ), musical value ( heritage) and contemporary relevance - Petterssom may be the biggest ticket draw for anyone attracted to post-1950 music.
There's no doubt that in retrospect, the atonal, serialists ans postwhatever have lost the battle. Bartok, Prokofiev, Ravel and Vaughan-Williams (yes, VW !!) have prevailed and their heirs, Shostakovich and Pettersson, have aroused the interest of the younger generation. They have picked up the flame. In Pettersson's case, the batte seems to be a generation behind DSCH's . But I have no hesitation in hainling the outcome.
Some reflections on Mr. Pastia's thoughtful post. First, to declare my bias, I really don't much like the works of the dyspeptic Mr. P. I find the 7th Symphony tolerable, possibly the 8th as well; but the others I've heard just put me off with their long-winded, free-form, self-pitying ranting.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 09, 2009, 06:17:39 PM
Petterssom may be the biggest ticket draw for anyone attracted to post-1950 music.
Is there any evidence for this? I've lived in several major cities with major orchestras, and I can recall a Pettersson symphony being programmed exactly once - in Chicago in the 1980s.
QuoteThere's no doubt that in retrospect, the atonal, serialists ans postwhatever have lost the battle. Bartok, Prokofiev, Ravel and Vaughan-Williams (yes, VW !!) have prevailed and their heirs, Shostakovich and Pettersson, have aroused the interest of the younger generation.
In general I agree with the sentiment here - it's the "mainstream modernists" (i.e. not the hardcore atonalists, and not the neo-romantics) who have triumphed. Shostakovich, for instance, is ubiquitous. But Pettersson is not - and unlike Lilas, I'm fairly confident things will remain that way.
Quote from: snyprrr on December 09, 2009, 07:59:33 AMI especially like No.11, and No.10 is in the same way
You're probably not alone. Surely there are at least 2 or 3 more people on earth who like those symphonies ;) I only listened once to them. My thoughts were about torture...
I've always thought that his masterpiece was Violin Concerto No 2, the last few minutes of which are as moving a piece of music as any I have heard and connect directly to the heart of the listener (well, to me anyway!). (symphs 6-8 are my favourites)
Quote from: vandermolen on December 10, 2009, 09:21:09 AM
I've always thought that his masterpiece was Violin Concerto No 2, the last few minutes of which are as moving a piece of music as any I have heard and connect directly to the heart of the listener (well, to me anyway!). (symphs 6-8 are my favourites)
There was someone who used to say the same exact thing all the time about the ending of the 2nd Violin Concerto, so it's not just you (i don't think he posts here anymore).
Which makes me very much interested, since I've never heard it...
Quote from: Greg on December 11, 2009, 09:09:39 PM
There was someone who used to say the same exact thing all the time about the ending of the 2nd Violin Concerto, so it's not just you (i don't think he posts here anymore).
Which makes me very much interested, since I've never heard it...
Both recordings are excellent. The CPO might be easier to find.
Here's a link to the CPO version on Amazon, which has a review (by me ;D)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Allan-Pettersson-Violin-Concerto-No/dp/B000L42J6S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260696574&sr=1-1
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 10, 2009, 08:36:04 AM
You're probably not alone. Surely there are at least 2 or 3 more people on earth who like those symphonies ;) I only listened once to them. My thoughts were about torture...
The Pettersson-Rubbernecking-at-the-Car-Wreck-Syndrome
Quote from: vandermolen on December 13, 2009, 12:28:38 AM
Both recordings are excellent. The CPO might be easier to find.
Here's a link to the CPO version on Amazon, which has a review (by me ;D)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Allan-Pettersson-Violin-Concerto-No/dp/B000L42J6S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260696574&sr=1-1
tks for that great review vandermolen - i was going for some of the symphonies next but maybe the violin concerto will have to come first :)
Quote from: vandermolen on December 13, 2009, 12:28:38 AM
Both recordings are excellent. The CPO might be easier to find.
Here's a link to the CPO version on Amazon, which has a review (by me ;D)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Allan-Pettersson-Violin-Concerto-No/dp/B000L42J6S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260696574&sr=1-1
Yummy.
Quote from: offbeat on December 13, 2009, 07:51:14 AM
tks for that great review vandermolen - i was going for some of the symphonies next but maybe the violin concerto will have to come first :)
Thank you :)
I don't think you'll be disappointed. Those wonderful last few minutes put a kind of retrospective glow on the characteristically troubled and tortured earlier sections - I find it exceptionally moving.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 13, 2009, 11:37:51 PM
Thank you :)
I don't think you'll be disappointed. Those wonderful last few minutes put a kind of retrospective glow on the characteristically troubled and tortured earlier sections - I find it exceptionally moving.
Although I quite agree with you about the ending, in all fairness you should mention that there is almost 50 minutes of trouble and torture to get through before you reach it! I've spent may happy(?) hours getting to grips with it myself.
Quote from: Sef on December 15, 2009, 02:51:43 PM
Although I quite agree with you about the ending, in all fairness you should mention that there is almost 50 minutes of trouble and torture to get through before you reach it! I've spent may happy(?) hours getting to grips with it myself.
That's true, but I quite enjoy those sections too - in a kind of masochistic sort of way :-\
Quote from: vandermolen on December 16, 2009, 05:29:33 AM
That's true, but I quite enjoy those sections too - in a kind of masochistic sort of way :-\
Greg - consider yourself warned. If you want to wallow in self pity this is perfect. May I suggest something lighter though if you actually suffer from depression as some of your diner comments might suggest.
I've never agreed with the view of Pettersson's music displaying 'rampant self-pity' (first suggested by Robert Layton, I think, who obviously dislikes Pettersson's music). To me, it is about struggle, suffering, perseverance and in the case of the end of Symphony No 6, for example, final triumph against the odds - but maybe this is my own stuff! :D
Quote from: vandermolen on December 17, 2009, 12:50:45 AM
I've never agreed with the view of Pettersson's music displaying 'rampant self-pity' (first suggested by Robert Layton, I think, who obviously dislikes Pettersson's music). To me, it is about struggle, suffering, perseverance and in the case of the end of Symphony No 6, for example, final triumph against the odds - but maybe this is my own stuff! :D
Then it's my stuff, too. That's how I hear a good deal of Pettersson: a fierce struggle up from the depths, ending not in exultation, but at least in peace or a philosophical resignation to fate.
Quote from: Velimir on December 09, 2009, 11:52:34 PM
Some reflections on Mr. Pastia's thoughtful post. First, to declare my bias, I really don't much like the works of the dyspeptic Mr. P. I find the 7th Symphony tolerable, possibly the 8th as well; but the others I've heard just put me off with their long-winded, free-form, self-pitying ranting.
Is there any evidence for this? I've lived in several major cities with major orchestras, and I can recall a Pettersson symphony being programmed exactly once - in Chicago in the 1980s.
In general I agree with the sentiment here - it's the "mainstream modernists" (i.e. not the hardcore atonalists, and not the neo-romantics) who have triumphed. Shostakovich, for instance, is ubiquitous. But Pettersson is not - and unlike Lilas, I'm fairly confident things will remain that way.
Pettersson is pretty much 'on the radar' of german concert programs. Witness the extant recordings, many of which emanating from various so-called provincial german towns. I'm not sure checking Pettersson's concert fortunes in the US market is the way to gauge his popularity. How many Piston, Harris or even Copland performances are there in the germanic countries ? Is that a reflection of the music's influence? IMHO, north american concert programs reflect the prevailing influence of some 20-50 years ago music making. The BSO-CSO-NYPO programming is probably the worst way to look at the influence or popularity of a 20th century composer.
IMHO a multinational forum such as this one gives a better indication of a composer's fortunes in the global village ;)
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 17, 2009, 07:11:24 PM
Pettersson is pretty much 'on the radar' of german concert programs. Witness the extant recordings, many of which emanating from various so-called provincial german towns.
You may be right about this. I'm too lazy to check, but maybe some of our Germany-based members could say something about this. This also may have something to do with the heavily subsidized world of German radio orchestras, which may not reflect listeners' actual demands.
QuoteI'm not sure checking Pettersson's concert fortunes in the US market is the way to gauge his popularity. How many Piston, Harris or even Copland performances are there in the germanic countries ? Is that a reflection of the music's influence? IMHO, north american concert programs reflect the prevailing influence of some 20-50 years ago music making. The BSO-CSO-NYPO programming is probably the worst way to look at the influence or popularity of a 20th century composer.
Again, you may have a point there. However, I didn't see any Pettersson being performed when I was living in Prague, nor have I seen any during 5 years in Moscow. Nor anywhere else, except that one Chicago event.
I think what set me off was your (implicit) claim that P. was heading toward a DSCH-like level of popularity. I see almost zero evidence for that.
QuoteIMHO a multinational forum such as this one gives a better indication of a composer's fortunes in the global village ;)
It gives a better indication of the preferences of a small group of classical music fanatics, who constitute a tiny sliver of the listening audience as a whole (sadly).
Quote from: Grazioso on December 17, 2009, 04:27:47 AM
Then it's my stuff, too. That's how I hear a good deal of Pettersson: a fierce struggle up from the depths, ending not in exultation, but at least in peace or a philosophical resignation to fate.
I agree very much with this.
Quote from: Velimir on December 17, 2009, 10:01:50 PM
I think what set me off was your (implicit) claim that P. was heading toward a DSCH-like level of popularity. I see almost zero evidence for that.
It gives a better indication of the preferences of a small group of classical music fanatics, who constitute a tiny sliver of the listening audience as a whole (sadly).
Why do you think Mahler declared 'My time will come' ? ;)
Quote from: Sef on December 16, 2009, 09:15:16 AM
Greg - consider yourself warned. If you want to wallow in self pity this is perfect. May I suggest something lighter though if you actually suffer from depression as some of your diner comments might suggest.
Whoa, did I just hear my name?...
Actually, I don't do the self-pity thing- just the anger thing. ???
I really don't listen to Pettersson much, although I do respect the fact that he can say what he does in his music. I just don't find him as addictive or interesting as others- maybe I just see his music as not very dynamic and simple? I find something like Gorecki's 3rd to be even more depressing than most of Pettersson's stuff, but I rarely listen to that either because the music is just too simplistic.
I listened right through Pettersson's VC No 2 today (Ida Haendel/Herbert Blomstedt, Swedish RSO/Caprice label). It had me gripped from beginning to end - I have known this work since its first appearance on LP in 1980 and it has never lost its hold over me. The advantage of the Caprice version over the excellent new CPO version is that it contains the 'Suite from Barefoot Songs', the first one of which the Violin Concerto No 2 is based on.
The concerto is not something one hears on a regular basis. But Jeffrey's reaction, even after decades of exposure, is just what that masterpiece elicits: total immersion in the music. There's simply no room to escape. One of the most absorbing listening experiences I've ever had the privilege to go through.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 19, 2009, 04:09:22 PM
The concerto is not something one hears on a regular basis. But Jeffrey's reaction, even after decades of exposure, is just what that masterpiece elicits: total immersion in the music. There's simply no room to escape. One of the most absorbing listening experiences I've ever had the privilege to go through.
Thanks Andre :) Now I am listening to the CPO version! It is a bit softer grained (if that is the right word for this music) - but just as valid an interpretation I think. I find the poignant photos of the ailing Pettersson in the Caprice booklet notes to be very moving. Two great discs. 'No room to escape' - yes, you are so right.
I'm trying to search the thread for mention of the 7 Sonatas, but,...
Can anyone comment between the two versions, BIS and Caprice?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 22, 2010, 06:36:09 PM
I'm trying to search the thread for mention of the 7 Sonatas, but,...
Can anyone comment between the two versions, BIS and Caprice?
Also, I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and get the CPO 3/4, or wait for BIS to get around to No.4, the only one I haven't heard.
BIS still have 2,4,6,9,12,13,14,...yea!, how bout that?, they haven't even cracked the shell yet!!
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4bMNzqMkW3U/0.jpg)
Gustaf Allan Pettersson was a symphonist of the twentieth century, specializing in giant, single-movement structures chronicling pain and despair. Like Mahler (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7663), he had an abusive alcoholic father. Pettersson's father was an atheist. His mother was a devoutly religious woman who sang Salvation Army hymns, often as a way to escape the atheistic proclamations of her husband. In his symphonies, as in Mahler (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7663)'s, the sudden emergence of folkish music breaks out as an antidote to tension. In Pettersson's case this often takes the form of broad, chorale harmonizations.
The family lived in a poor neighborhood of Stockholm. Allan had to sell Christmas cards on the street to get money for a violin. He taught himself how to play. He entered the Royal Conservatory of Music in 1930. Finally, he won the Jenny Lind Scholarship in 1930, using it to study viola in Paris with Maurice Vieux (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:92351). He continued his education as a composer while holding down a job as violist in the Stockholm Concert Society Orchestra (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:STOCKHOLM%7CCONCERT%7CSOC), and played in various radio ensembles. His composition teachers were Otto Ohlsson (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:OTTO%7COHLSSON) and Karl-Birger Blomdahl (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7070). During the 1940s he wrote his important large-scale cycle, Barfotsånger (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=55:BARFOTS%C3%85NGER) (Barefoot Songs). In another parallel with Mahler (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7663), he frequently used melodies from it in his symphonies. In 1943 he married Gudrun Gustafsson (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:GUDRUN%7CGUSTAFSSON). In 1946 they moved into a small fifth floor apartment in the south side of Stockholm. It remained their home for 30 years, becoming Pettersson's prison.
In 1950 Pettersson committed himself to prepare for a career entirely devoted to composition. The orchestra gave him leave to study in Paris with Honegger (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7469), Milhaud (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:MILHAUD), and Leibowitz (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:3673). He rejected the neo-Classicism of the first, and the 12-tone proselytizing of the last-named of these. His long, difficult works failed to attract much enthusiasm at home, but he went through with his plans to resign from the orchestra in 1952. Soon, though, he began suffering joint pains that would later be diagnosed as rheumatoid arthritis. Somehow, Sweden's democratic welfare state failed to provide him with needed medical care, medications, or social support. Pettersson described himself as "a voice crying out, drowned in the noise of the times." For a decade and a half he was known as a composer only in narrow circles, though he received a few commissions. In 1963 a recording was made of one movement of one of his concerti for strings. In 1964 the government granted him a guaranteed income.
Then he scored his breakthrough with the Symphony No. 7 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=55:SYMPHONY%7CNO.%7C7). This one-movement work depicts a harsh inner struggle, relieved by a radiant Adagio section. Antal Dorati (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7250)'s premiere of it on October 10, 1968, was a triumph. It was the last concert Pettersson would attend. Soon, his debilitation made it impossible to descend the stairs. He was trapped in his apartment. Pettersson's only outside view was of a junkyard. He composed his music while a hostile neighbor blasted out rock & roll, often around the clock.
The Seventh Symphony (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=55:SEVENTH%7CSYMPHONY) led to international success. Pettersson received commissions for new works, and wrote a new symphony nearly every year. In 1976 the government moved him to a luxurious, ground-level apartment, and provided first-class medical care for him. He died while working on his Seventeenth Symphony (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=55:SEVENTEENTH%7CSYMPHONY). He left 15 extant symphonies and a formidable Second Violin Concerto (http://www.good-music-guide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=55:SECOND%7CVIOLIN%7CCONCERT) in a single 50-minute movement.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Since there is no thread regarding all facets of Pettersson's music and life, this thread is much in order. I'm still relatively new to Pettersson's work, but for the longest time he simply scared the living hell out of me. But now I know this was just fear, Pettersson's music demonstrates life at its most pessimistic. But I think deep down, Pettersson was a decent man who loved life, but found that the only way to truely express himself musically was not to sugarcoat it. There are rays of light in the music and this makes the music that much more rewarding.
Share you thoughts about this very underrated composer here. Do you have any favorite recordings? What are you thoughts about his music?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 25, 2010, 07:14:13 AMBIS still have 2,4,6,9,12,13,14,...yea!, how bout that?, they haven't even cracked the shell yet!!
Which is why I went ahead and bought the entire Cpo set. I'm not going to wait around on BIS to finish their cycle. That would be a long wait! :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2010, 01:42:09 PM
Which is why I went ahead and bought the entire Cpo set. I'm not going to wait around on BIS to finish their cycle. That would be a long wait! :D
And too, there is no guarantee the BIS performances would be superior anyway. I know it's a matter of taste, but I prefer Albrecht's Seventh to Dorati and Segerstam's. What's more important, paulb prefers Albrecht...and we all know paul is the final arbiter in these matters ;D ;)
Sarge
(* chortle *)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2010, 01:50:17 PM
And too, there is no guarantee the BIS performances would be superior anyway. I know it's a matter of taste, but I prefer Albrecht's Seventh to Dorati and Segerstam's. What's more important, paulb prefers Albrecht...and we all know paul is the final arbiter in these matters ;D ;)
Sarge
Yeah, I think too often people put a label, like BIS for example, above the actual performance and think just because it's on this label that it's superior. Like if Deutsche Grammphon released a box set of Pettersson symphonies (likely never to happen in our lifetimes), then many people will instantly think: "Oh it's on DG, it must be great!" This kind of attitude is what seperates true classical fans from those who claim to be fans.
Paulb is a Pettersson fanatic, which even the fanatics don't always hold the best judgement when recordings are concerned. I'm a huge fan of Ravel, Bruckner, Vaughan Williams, Villa-Lobos, and Bartok, do you honestly think I really know what are the greatest recordings? No, of course not. It's all subjective. What I look for in the music is totally different than what everyone else looks for.
I bought this set to really examine the music. The interpretative part of the music is something I will analyze much later. Right now, I'm just going to try to become more familiar with the music.
What was up with that Kamu 6? I was just listening to the CPO in the rain the other day, and would love to know how different, or wotnot, the Kamu is.
I've only listened to 6 3-4 times. The other day I was hearing all kinds of 8, and I suppose 7 too, but, 6 really seems to have the most drawn out ending, no? (maybe 6 and 8 are very similar?)
Quote from: snyprrr on August 16, 2010, 03:54:08 PM
What was up with that Kamu 6? I was just listening to the CPO in the rain the other day, and would love to know how different, or wotnot, the Kamu is.
I've only listened to 6 3-4 times. The other day I was hearing all kinds of 8, and I suppose 7 too, but, 6 really seems to have the most drawn out ending, no? (maybe 6 and 8 are very similar?)
I would like to own the Kamu if it ever gets released, but I have a lot of Pettersson to absorb right now. I just ordered the complete symphony set on Cpo and I have a lot of catching up to do with most people who posted on this thread.
Two that never made it to CD issues?
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/LP%20covers_labels/petterssonsym8dg.jpg)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/LP%20covers_labels/petterssonsym6CBSFT.jpg)
Not that I know of....
Quote from: just Jeff on August 16, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Two that never made it to CD issues?
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/LP%20covers_labels/petterssonsym8dg.jpg)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/LP%20covers_labels/petterssonsym6CBSFT.jpg)
Not that I know of....
No, these never made it to CD.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2010, 01:50:17 PM
And too, there is no guarantee the BIS performances would be superior anyway. I know it's a matter of taste, but I prefer Albrecht's Seventh to Dorati and Segerstam's. What's more important, paulb prefers Albrecht...and we all know paul is the final arbiter in these matters
I was surprised that I didn't like the Dorati 7th considering the praise it gets - it seems to skim over much of the piece and the tempo relations were a little less "perfect" than Albrecht.
Quote from: Lethe on August 17, 2010, 01:49:01 AM
I was surprised that I didn't like the Dorati 7th considering the praise it gets - it seems to skim over much of the piece and the tempo relations were a little less "perfect" than Albrecht.
Have you heard Segerstam's recording of the 7th, Lethe?
Quote from: Lethe on August 17, 2010, 01:49:01 AM
I was surprised that I didn't like the Dorati 7th considering the praise it gets - it seems to skim over much of the piece and the tempo relations were a little less "perfect" than Albrecht.
What a curious judgement. To my sensibility the Dorati recording is utterly superior to CPO Albrecht, - and in fact, after numerous listens to Albrecht I remember thinking it might be the worst Pettersson performance I'd ever heard. For example, the wonderously consolatory passage for strings that begins (in the Doratri recording) at about 25' - everyone who knows the Symphony knows the part I'm referring to - seems terribly disjointed and without much impact in Albrecht when up against Dorati's seamlessness and passion. It's precisely the dynamics and tempo relations you admire that IMO Albrecht makes a terrible mess of (the playing isn't very good either). We hear with different ears.
Strange indeed :D
Mirror Image: I have, and recall it being impressive, but I feel that I may have imprinted on the CPO recording a little too much, as this is my usual "go-to". I'll return to Segerstam when I'm in the mood for the composer's idiom.
Like with most things he records Segerstam drags the tempos and lacks forward impetus (IMO).
Perhaps it's been mentioned here, but I read somewhere that Dorati supposedly detested the music
notwithstanding his benchmark recording. Can anyone provide confirmation or document the source for this?
Quote from: J on August 17, 2010, 02:53:46 PMLike with most things he records Segerstam drags the tempos and lacks forward impetus (IMO).
I'm not sure if I agree that Segerstam drags the tempi on everything he conducts, but I do notice that the tempi on his Pettersson 7th and 11th are a little on the slow side. Seeing as I haven't heard other recordings of these works yet, I can't do any comparisons, but when I receive the Pettersson Cpo set, I'll let you know my impressions.
I just listened to Segerstam and Albrecht - Segerstam has a certain way of smoothing the work, not just tempo-wise, but giving it a very professional, velvety sounding quality. I found the Albrecht to be more nervous sounding, and with a clearer recorded sound although at times risking sounding slightly anemic next to BIS's plush production job. If I can find a time when the house is empty again I'll give the Dorati a try (nothing like playing Pettersson in the living area to piss off housemates).
Oh, gosh, sometimes I wish I didn't do InterNet searches:QuoteAllan Pettersson is considered in Anglo-Saxon countries has the greatest Swedish composer, and is one of the few great composers of symphonies of the XXth century, with Gustav Mahler or Dimitri Shostakovich.
Half of that is the most shameless hyperbole.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2010, 06:37:25 AM
Oh, gosh, sometimes I wish I didn't do InterNet searches:
Half of that is the most shameless hyperbole.
Only
three great composers of symphonies in the 20th century? The writer doesn't get out much, does he ;D
Sarge
Well, and of those three, that Pettersson is one. No, he must not get around much.
Quote from: J on August 17, 2010, 08:59:30 AM
What a curious judgement. To my sensibility the Dorati recording is utterly superior to CPO Albrecht, - and in fact, after numerous listens to Albrecht I remember thinking it might be the worst Pettersson performance I'd ever heard. For example, the wonderously consolatory passage for strings that begins (in the Dorati recording) at about 25' - everyone who knows the Symphony knows the part I'm referring to - seems terribly disjointed and without much impact in Albrecht when up against Dorati's seamlessness and passion [....]
The Doráti recording is really great music-making there.
FWIW, in the view of the fellow/people responsible for the citation here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,118.msg441910.html#msg441910), the Comissiona recording (http://musicinwords.free.fr/aplife.htm#disco) is the best of the Seventh, followed by the Doráti.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2010, 06:58:02 AM
FWIW, in the view of the fellow/people responsible for the citation here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,118.msg441910.html#msg441910), the Comissiona recording (http://musicinwords.free.fr/aplife.htm#disco) is the best of the Seventh, followed by the Doráti.
Commisiona recorded the 8th!
Quote from: erato on August 18, 2010, 07:09:41 AM
Commisiona recorded the 8th!
And not the Seventh, you mean?
my most bizarre CD :
Pettersson's 7th by Comissiona together with Mozart's Bassoon concerto.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2010, 06:37:25 AM
Oh, gosh, sometimes I wish I didn't do InterNet searches:
Half of that is the most shameless hyperbole.
Whoever wrote that obviously knows very little about classical music in the 20th Century.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2010, 07:19:42 AM
And not the Seventh, you mean?
I wasn't aware of a 7th at least......
Quote from: erato on August 20, 2010, 08:48:01 AM
I wasn't aware of a 7th at least......
Yeah, - Commisiona recorded a 7th on the Caprice label with the Swedish National SO.
I rank it second to Dorati in quality, but it lacks somewhat what I'd call the "inevitability" I hear in Dorati, and being a live performance the playing can be pretty rough.
After rather sparse exposure I have the impression that I don't like Pettersson, but having listened to the 7th symphony today (the cpo recording) I may have to reverse myself. It is a bit frustrating because I fear that among those 17 symphonies I will find some substantial music to love and a lot of music to be bored by, and it will take time to figure out what is what.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 06, 2010, 07:10:25 AM
After rather sparse exposure I have the impression that I don't like Pettersson, but having listened to the 7th symphony today (the cpo recording) I may have to reverse myself. It is a bit frustrating because I fear that among those 17 symphonies I will find some substantial music to love and a lot of music to be bored by, and it will take time to figure out what is what.
That's basically the reaction I had. I thought the 7th and 8th symphonies were pretty good, largely free of the rambling and screaming that characterizes some of his other symphonies (the 13th being the worst), and with some eloquent and moving sections. After a while I gave up on him though, deciding that other composers were more worthy of my attention.
Quote from: Velimir on September 06, 2010, 10:14:54 AM
That's basically the reaction I had. I thought the 7th and 8th symphonies were pretty good, largely free of the rambling and screaming that characterizes some of his other symphonies (the 13th being the worst), and with some eloquent and moving sections. After a while I gave up on him though, deciding that other composers were more worthy of my attention.
I'm glad I persevered with 6 though. Absolutely my favourite in a haunting way - couldn't be without it. Same with the VC. They just make my heart ache in a way no other piece has come close to.
Quote from: Sef on September 08, 2010, 06:47:02 AM
I'm glad I persevered with 6 though. Absolutely my favourite in a haunting way - couldn't be without it. Same with the VC. They just make my heart ache in a way no other piece has come close to.
Thanks to our own Just Jeff, I received my copy of Pettersson 6 and the VC #2. Both are stunning works that I am glad I finally have! I have heard the VC many many years ago, before I could have appreciated it.
Next up: the Violin Sonatas and the Barefoot Songs! Hooray!
Quote from: springrite on October 11, 2010, 09:37:37 AM
Next up: the Violin Sonatas and the Barefoot Songs! Hooray!
I was kinda disappointed with the Sonatas for 2 Violins. I didn't feel compelled to get them. You can hear samples on Amazon (unless of course you're already sold!).
Quote from: snyprrr on October 11, 2010, 12:22:30 PM
I was kinda disappointed with the Sonatas for 2 Violins. I didn't feel compelled to get them. You can hear samples on Amazon (unless of course you're already sold!).
Could you please indicate whether you're serious or not? I've ended up not knowing when you are making a goofy joke or not.
Quote from: erato on October 11, 2010, 12:30:03 PM
Could you please indicate whether you're serious or not? I've ended up not knowing when you are making a goofy joke or not.
oh, erato,...I'm hurt. :'(
Are you tense? Can I rub your shoulders? ;D
No, I just didn't find the
Sonatas lived up to the image I had been provided by reviews. I'd make them the very last thing on the Pettersson Wish List. For students only.
Now,... how could I dare kid in the hallowed halls of the Pettersson Thread?
Quote from: snyprrr on October 11, 2010, 01:04:54 PM
Now,... how could I dare kid in the hallowed halls of the Pettersson Thread?
Well you do it all over the place and I'm at a loss of what to make of quite a number of your posts..... ::)
Quote from: springrite on October 11, 2010, 09:37:37 AM
Thanks to our own Just Jeff, I received my copy of Pettersson 6 and the VC #2. Both are stunning works that I am glad I finally have! I have heard the VC many many years ago, before I could have appreciated it.
Next up: the Violin Sonatas and the Barefoot Songs! Hooray!
Hey Paul, you have the Kamu 6th on CD(R) which not many others can claim ("RARE"), a pretty sweet thing to behold.
Analog LPs always work out well to CD-R when I have a clean condition album to work from. One of those Aho CD-Rs, I think the SQ is a tiny bit shrill being a digital recording to begin with. See transfering a digital LP to make a CD-R resamples the sound yet again. The
Pettersson 6th - Kamu on CBS is an
all-analog recording, so that one is really the cat's litter!!!
Glad you like it. It's always fun for me to make CD-Rs of LPs that missed getting a CD issue. Now with time marching on, I think many of these slightly obscure works are not going to ever get CD issues.
Better the cat's litter than the cat's litter pail.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 12, 2010, 06:36:04 PM
Better the cat's litter than the cat's litter pail.
I thought it was the cat's meow?
Kitty litter,...wha??? :o ::) How did we get kitty litter in Pettersson's Pavilion? :-\oh dear ??? :-[
Quote from: snyprrr on October 12, 2010, 10:15:00 PM
I thought it was the cat's meow?
Kitty litter,...wha??? :o ::) How did we get kitty litter in Pettersson's Pavilion? :-\oh dear ??? :-[
The litter is the cat's kittens in general terms, and not the stuff that came to your mind when reading my post. Could your head full of dirty kitty litter, and not sweet little kittens?
I thought the Dog's Bollocks might be more appropriate.
Well I am completely in love with the 6th it is such an amazing symphony! Is there any other works I should listen to?
Quote from: DavidW on October 14, 2010, 03:04:18 PM
Well I am completely in love with the 6th it is such an amazing symphony! Is there any other works I should listen to?
7 and 8 IMHO. And, his masterpiece - the Violin Concerto No 2 - IMHO the greatest 20th century violin concerto.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2010, 10:58:15 PM
7 and 8 IMHO. And, his masterpiece - the Violin Concerto No 2 - IMHO the greatest 20th century violin concerto.
IMO also 4 essential works. If you never listen to anything else by Pettersson, be sure to listen to these.
Alright I have my list then. :)
Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2010, 06:15:54 AM
Alright I have my list then. :)
Tell me the first 3mins on No.8 don't turn into your 'life theme'!!!!
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2010, 10:58:15 PM
And, his masterpiece - the Violin Concerto No 2 - IMHO the greatest 20th century violin concerto.
Oh, dear, no, no, no. I know you said "IMHO," Jeffrey, but I had to offer my opinion that such an appraisal is way off the mark. I suppose I'm going to have to revisit that concerto, but . . . not today.
Has anybody heard Dorati's Pettersson 10th? I didn't know it existed, but ran into an EMI LP coupled with Blomdahl's 2nd and a quick Amazon search indicates it doesn't seem to have had a CD transfer...
Quote from: Lethe on December 10, 2010, 04:21:06 AM
Has anybody heard Dorati's Pettersson 10th? I didn't know it existed, but ran into an EMI LP coupled with Blomdahl's 2nd and a quick Amazon search indicates it doesn't seem to have had a CD transfer...
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/Unused%20Covers/pattersson10doratift.jpg)
No, not yet on CD AFAIK, I am in the process or doing all Pattersson works to CD-R (high-end transfers) that have not been issued officially. It's a labor of love.
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/Unused%20Covers/pettersson9ft.jpg)
Thanks for that scan, that was exactly the one! Once your project gets off the ground please forgive me if I try to pester you to share those rips at some point ;) I could've bought the Dorati myself, but I lack a turntable or any equipment to make such a transfer.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 15, 2010, 08:06:30 AM
Oh, dear, no, no, no. I know you said "IMHO," Jeffrey, but I had to offer my opinion that such an appraisal is way off the mark.
I suppose I'm going to have to revisit that concerto, but . . . not today.
I love Pettersson's music, including works even some of most ardent fans dismiss (like the 16th) but I've not cracked the Violin Concerto. I've only listened to it twice (Blomstdet/Haendel) because it was pure aural torture. Still, like you, Karl, I should revisit it if only to confirm my dislike. This is one of the few times I've disagreed with Vandermolen.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2010, 03:50:01 AM
I love Pettersson's music, including works even some of most ardent fans dismiss (like the 16th) but I've not cracked the Violin Concerto. I've only listened to it twice (Blomstdet/Haendel) because it was pure aural torture. Still, like you, Karl, I should revisit it if only to confirm my dislike. This is one of the few times I've disagreed with Vandermolen.
Sarge
Of course I respect your views, not to mention those of the famous Karl, but this work has always gripped me from the first time I heard it on the old Caprice LP. Pettersson is an acquired taste; 'rampant self-pity' according to Robert Layton, but I don't agree and the more recent CPO recording of VC No 2 confirmed my view of its stature - but I don't think we will agree on this one - which for me is part of the charm of this forum.
Jeffrey
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2010, 03:50:01 AM
I love Pettersson's music, including works even some of most ardent fans dismiss (like the 16th) but I've not cracked the Violin Concerto. I've only listened to it twice (Blomstdet/Haendel) because it was pure aural torture. Still, like you, Karl, I should revisit it if only to confirm my dislike. This is one of the few times I've disagreed with Vandermolen.
Sarge
VC tough on me too.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 11, 2010, 12:56:54 PM
Of course I respect your views, not to mention those of the famous Karl, but this work has always gripped me from the first time I heard it on the old Caprice LP. Pettersson is an acquired taste; 'rampant self-pity' according to Robert Layton, but I don't agree and the more recent CPO recording of VC No 2 confirmed my view of its stature - but I don't think we will agree on this one - which for me is part of the charm of this forum.
Jeffrey
I think it's one of his better works. Like
Symphonies 6-8, it contrasts those light and dark aspects of his music to great effect. Of course, I don't think there's a better Pettersson score than the famous
Symphony No. 7, but the VC came pretty close as did
Symphonies Nos. 6 & 8, which I all rank as works of the highest order.
Quote from: Lethe on December 10, 2010, 08:11:29 PM
Thanks for that scan, that was exactly the one! Once your project gets off the ground please forgive me if I try to pester you to share those rips at some point ;) I could've bought the Dorati myself, but I lack a turntable or any equipment to make such a transfer.
You should send me a private pester message sure. But I really hate to be the one to break it to you and this thread, but the Dorati 10th is called, in the Third Ear Classical guide which I do trust to some degree: "ragged, out of tune, and unpolished" and suggests "don't bother" with this version, and says that the Segerstam (BIS) "delivers in one of the most searing orchestral explosions on record."
So we'll take that for what it's worth....
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2010, 07:22:11 PM
I think it's one of his better works. Like Symphonies 6-8, it contrasts those light and dark aspects of his music to great effect. Of course, I don't think there's a better Pettersson score than the famous Symphony No. 7, but the VC came pretty close as did Symphonies Nos. 6 & 8, which I all rank as works of the highest order.
Also mentioned, or worth mentioning, is the Mesto Concerto for Orchestra #3, considered in all but name another "Symphony", shown here conducted by Stig Westerberg, on Swedish Society. Anyone heard this work?
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/Unused%20Covers/petterssonmestoft.jpg)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/Unused%20Covers/petterssonmestobk.jpg)
Swede issue:
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/Unused%20Covers/petterssonmestogemaft.jpg)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/hiptone/Unused%20Covers/petterssonmestogemabk.jpg)
'Mesto' is a superb and haunting piece. I love it.
The complete (3) concertoes are available on cpo and well worth hearing. The Mesto have had several separate recordings, among others a brand new one on BIS IIRC.
I also endorse the string symphonies in general. They are superior to at least a few of his orchestral symphonies, and as a cycle there aren't all that many works by other composers to rival Pettersson's success in this form.
Hi everyone,
Apologies if you know about this already. I am trying to find where all the Pettersson fans hide on this forum.
I am currently listening to all of Allan Pettersson's orchestral works (plus a few other selected pieces) and writing a blog about it, in honor of his upcoming 100th birthday.
Pettersson fans, lovers of the 20th-century symphony, and anyone curious, please stop by, and leave comments or feedback!
http://allanpettersson100.blogspot.com/
See you there!
I'm not sure if anybody has seen this very short video, but it has some interesting excerpts with Pettersson talking about his music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqX-ZhH89dw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqX-ZhH89dw)
Quote from: AP100 on January 04, 2011, 11:54:46 AM
I am currently listening to all of Allan Pettersson's orchestral works (plus a few other selected pieces) and writing a blog about it, in honor of his upcoming 100th birthday.
Pettersson fans, lovers of the 20th-century symphony, and anyone curious, please stop by, and leave comments or feedback!
http://allanpettersson100.blogspot.com/
See you there!
I was going to post a link to this blog, but see it is already here. The blogger is going through the works and recordings by date of composition, and has reached Symphony No. 4. His writing is good and clear, and the record reviews are very helpful to a novice like myself.
Definitely worth checking out.
BTW, I could not find this thread through the forum search option. What is going on there? Seems like it keeps getting worse...
Quote from: eyeresist on April 14, 2011, 09:59:51 PMI was going to post a link to this blog, but see it is already here. The blogger is going through the works and recordings by date of composition, and has reached Symphony No. 4. His writing is good and clear, and the record reviews are very helpful to a novice like myself.
Definitely worth checking out.
BTW, I could not find this thread through the forum search option. What is going on there? Seems like it keeps getting worse...
You have to be on the right level of the forum hierarchy. If you're on top level and enter "Pettersson" into the search box on the top right, you'll easily find the thread on 2nd position.
I entered a comment to the blog on Symphony No. 6, he expressed exactly what I'm thinking. The greatest AP symphony. Long, hard, tragic but rewarding journey. I agree with the thesis "true meaning of beauty [and pure joy imo] - only after suffering". No, this is not my sexual preference ;)
Can't seem to listen to Pettersson any more. ??? Maybe it's those one track cds,... I just don't have the will to sit through it. And, I pulled out VC 2, which I don't know wwwhy everyone thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe because I didn't make it to the end. I'll try again (when it's raining).
Perhaps 10 or 11.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 20, 2011, 06:34:58 PM
Can't seem to listen to Pettersson any more. ??? Maybe it's those one track cds,... I just don't have the will to sit through it. And, I pulled out VC 2, which I don't know wwwhy everyone thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe because I didn't make it to the end. I'll try again (when it's raining).
Perhaps 10 or 11.
Pettersson's symphonies can be challenging, but I think that
Symphonies Nos. 6-8 are masterpieces. The 7th, obviously, is the most accessible of the them all, but it has a powerful message I think which is that there is goodness in this world, but you have to search for it. You have to go through the dark clouds to find sunlight.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 03, 2011, 08:20:15 PM
I'm not sure if anybody has seen this very short video, but it has some interesting excerpts with Pettersson talking about his music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqX-ZhH89dw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqX-ZhH89dw)
Just came round to watching and listening to this. Interesting - first time I hear his voice. I can follow the Swedish reasonably well. He speaks very quickly in a very light voice. Thanks!
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Just came round to watching and listening to this. Interesting - first time I hear his voice. I can follow the Swedish reasonably well. He speaks very quickly in a very light voice. Thanks!
You're welcome. I figured it might be of at least some interest to somebody.:)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 03, 2011, 08:20:15 PM
I'm not sure if anybody has seen this very short video, but it has some interesting excerpts with Pettersson talking about his music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqX-ZhH89dw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqX-ZhH89dw)
Haha, he does sound like a typical Swede, haha! Ya vist!
http://allanpettersson100.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html
The Pettersson blog has reached Symphony No. 7, and by coincidence I heard this symphony for the first time today!
Overall I like it. It's melodically interesting, and in mood and sprawling form obviously related to Shostakovich, and perhaps also Mahler, both symphonists I like. EDIT: Oh, and Sibelius, of course. I definitely think I'll be listening to this again, but I'm not sure the performance (Segerstam) has the expressive intensity the music needs. I even found myself thinking maybe late Bernstein should have recorded this (generally NOT a fan).
This opinion may change when I've listened to the piece a few more times. At the moment I think I may prefer the "difficult" 11th! There's a very enjoyable part in the ninth minute, with blaring brass plus skeltering xylophone.
Quote from: eyeresist on May 26, 2011, 12:16:57 AM
http://allanpettersson100.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html
The Pettersson blog has reached Symphony No. 7, and by coincidence I heard this symphony for the first time today!
Overall I like it. It's melodically interesting, and in mood and sprawling form obviously related to Shostakovich, and perhaps also Mahler, both symphonists I like. EDIT: Oh, and Sibelius, of course. I definitely think I'll be listening to this again, but I'm not sure the performance (Segerstam) has the expressive intensity the music needs. I even found myself thinking maybe late Bernstein should have recorded this (generally NOT a fan).
This opinion may change when I've listened to the piece a few more times. At the moment I think I may prefer the "difficult" 11th! There's a very enjoyable part in the ninth minute, with blaring brass plus skeltering xylophone.
I'm still having my Pettersson Problem, but, you've reminded me that I can still listen to the 'short' Symphonies, 10 & 11. 11 may be my fav too,... mmm,... I'll need to get over my one-track/one-hour phobia first!! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2011, 06:28:41 AM
I'm still having my Pettersson Problem
Oh, it never, but never, goes away!
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2011, 06:28:41 AMI'm still having my Pettersson Problem, but, you've reminded me that I can still listen to the 'short' Symphonies, 10 & 11. 11 may be my fav too,... mmm,... I'll need to get over my one-track/one-hour phobia first!! ;)
I think you cannot solve Pettersson problems with Symphonies Nos. 10 & 11. I think they are a major part of the problem. No human being will ever be able to like and understand them ;) (I guess)
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 26, 2011, 07:44:27 AM
I think you cannot solve Pettersson problems with Symphonies Nos. 10 & 11. I think they are a major part of the problem. No human being will ever be able to like and understand them ;) (I guess)
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think Pettersson's
Symphonies 6-8 and his
Violin Concerto No. 2 are his masterpieces. He never achieved the contrast between darkness and bitter loneliness/isolation and the heavenly beautiful like he did in these works.
Let us all not forget that September 2011 marks the centenary of Pettersson's birth.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 26, 2011, 12:17:35 PM
Let us all not forget that September 2011 marks the centenary of Pettersson's birth.
What, the whole of September? That's some labour.
Having some real trouble posting here, BTW. Click on "post", and get taken to a "new topic" form.
Quote from: eyeresist on May 26, 2011, 05:49:31 PM
What, the whole of September? That's some labour.
Having some real trouble posting here, BTW. Click on "post", and get taken to a "new topic" form.
Well September 19th will mark the centenary.
I bought this recording a few days ago...
[asin]B000027DHY[/asin]
This was quite an expensive recording (bought it for around $20 brand new), but I think it's worth it just hear how Comissiona handles this work. He was a champion of Pettersson's music. I can only imagine how intense this performance will be.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 01:33:53 PM
I bought this recording a few days ago...
[asin]B000027DHY[/asin]
This was quite an expensive recording (bought it for around $20 brand new), but I think it's worth it just hear how Comissiona handles this work. He was a champion of Pettersson's music. I can only imagine how intense this performance will be.
Me too - it's a great performance - best since Dorati - why have DGG not issued Comissiona's great recording of Symphony No 8?
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 12:51:54 PM
Me too - it's a great performance - best since Dorati - why have DGG not issued Comissiona's great recording of Symphony No 8?
I'm not sure why DG won't release that recording either. :-\
BIS is about to release a disc of the reconstrucyed first symphony coupled with no 2, along with a DVD of an hour about the reconstruction work. Just sayin1'
Quote from: The new erato on August 30, 2011, 01:31:47 PM
BIS is about to release a disc of the reconstrucyed first symphony coupled with no 2, along with a DVD of an hour about the reconstruction work. Just sayin1'
Yes, I look forward to picking this up, erato. Should be good!
My initial reaction was negative.
I suppose I just realize how I think. I was like, instead of joy over reconstructed music( ::)) and aaanother version of No.2, I was, Where's that f*%XQ@*&G 9th already?? >:D yeesh,...
I'm sure you know that I'm like this all the time, but, I argue that I'm not a negative person just because that... well, I ask you,...
If I 'assume' that everything's supposed to be perfect, and 'assume' that everyone knows it, isn't reality more like a scolding than a celebration? He whom the Lord loveth, He chastiseth? Is not bringing up the fact that BIS has not recorded Symphonies 6, 9, or 13 a noble and righteous thing to do, instead of congratulating them on this release? (well, ok, maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but, I'm just sayin' that I'd like them to pretty please hurry the svensk up with this Pettersson Cycle before the older members of this forum pass on! :o
I'll admit that I wasn't expecting this particular release, or the previous release of String Concertos, but since they haven't registered on the emotional Must Buy Now meter, I maintain that any and all members here are with me in stating that we would ALL rather have had eith 6, 9, or 13, than these two last releases (three if you count the Sonatas for 2 Violins)? What? Is the Violin Concerto next?? >:D
Sorry, but it peeves me when labels emback on these Expectoramas of potential cycles, only to get bogged down, like this one, or stopped, like the Xenakis on Timpani (though, to be fair, I shouldn't complain there,... just be grateful),... I'm sure there's a Thread around here for that (no?,... can I start one? ;D
Can I get a witness here?
I see it more that I'm being positive by bringing up the fact that 6, 9, or 13 are like Supreme Masterpieces that should be graced with definitive recordings,... no? ;D
Quote from: snyprrr on August 30, 2011, 06:29:24 PM
My initial reaction was negative.
I suppose I just realize how I think. I was like, instead of joy over reconstructed music( ::)) and aaanother version of No.2, I was, Where's that f*%XQ@*&G 9th already?? >:D yeesh,...
I'm sure you know that I'm like this all the time, but, I argue that I'm not a negative person just because that... well, I ask you,...
If I 'assume' that everything's supposed to be perfect, and 'assume' that everyone knows it, isn't reality more like a scolding than a celebration? He whom the Lord loveth, He chastiseth? Is not bringing up the fact that BIS has not recorded Symphonies 6, 9, or 13 a noble and righteous thing to do, instead of congratulating them on this release? (well, ok, maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but, I'm just sayin' that I'd like them to pretty please hurry the svensk up with this Pettersson Cycle before the older members of this forum pass on! :o
I'll admit that I wasn't expecting this particular release, or the previous release of String Concertos, but since they haven't registered on the emotional Must Buy Now meter, I maintain that any and all members here are with me in stating that we would ALL rather have had eith 6, 9, or 13, than these two last releases (three if you count the Sonatas for 2 Violins)? What? Is the Violin Concerto next?? >:D
Sorry, but it peeves me when labels emback on these Expectoramas of potential cycles, only to get bogged down, like this one, or stopped, like the Xenakis on Timpani (though, to be fair, I shouldn't complain there,... just be grateful),... I'm sure there's a Thread around here for that (no?,... can I start one? ;D
Can I get a witness here?
I see it more that I'm being positive by bringing up the fact that 6, 9, or 13 are like Supreme Masterpieces that should be graced with definitive recordings,... no? ;D
For me, I would love for the 6th and 8th to be performed by a more capable conductor and by at an orchestra of virtuosos. The 7th has had many great performances. My personal favorite being Segerstam's on BIS. I consider, as I have pointed out many times,
Symphonies Nos. 6-8 to be Pettersson's masterpieces along with the
Violin Concerto No. 2, which already has an excellent performance on CPO with Dausgaard conducting the Swedish Radio Symphony with Isabelle van Keulen on violin.
In honesty, we should be thankful anything regarding Pettersson's music is coming out. He isn't necessarily a fan favorite. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 06:39:55 PMIn honesty, we should be thankful anything regarding Pettersson's music is coming out. He isn't necessarily a fan favorite. :)
I don't know if Pettersson has much of a future even in Sweden. I was made a member of a Facebook group of the Pettersson Society by a Swedish friend. The appended photo doesn't bode too well...
There's a cosmic rightness to that photo, somehow, though . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2011, 03:51:08 AM
There's a cosmic rightness to that photo, somehow, though . . . .
As in the refrain to Eleanor Rigby.
Quote from: The new erato on August 31, 2011, 03:53:50 AM
As in the refrain to Eleanor Rigby.
I think that's post of the week. ;D
(* chortle *)
I am glad I posted that photo. ;D
Which one's paulb?
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BISCD1860
More detail on the forthconming release.
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 31, 2011, 04:51:02 AM
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BISCD1860
More detail on the forthconming release.
What a fascinating looking release - thanks for the link Colin.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2011, 04:55:32 AM
What a fascinating looking release - thanks for the link Colin.
It was linked to on Facebook, too, by the Pettersson group. Yes, looks fascinating!
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 31, 2011, 03:08:22 AM
I don't know if Pettersson has much of a future even in Sweden. I was made a member of a Facebook group of the Pettersson Society by a Swedish friend. The appended photo doesn't bode too well...
Wow, that is one sad looking group of people! :'(
'Hot Babes for Pettersson'!!! :o
Quote from: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
'Hot Babes for Pettersson'!!! :o
Good luck with that!
BIS is a law unto itself ::)
I don't know how far Robert von Bahr is still involved with the company and I certainly have no wish to be sued for libel ;D so I had better not say too much 8)
Thir choice of repertoire is-how shall I say-somewhat eccentric and, yes, there are some very strange gaps in that repertoire. The Pettersson gaps mentioned above, the apparent disinclination to record much Hilding Rosenberg, the Kalevi Aho Symphonies Nos. 5 and 6(one of which, I can't remember which) was "too difficult" for the orchestra to perform(?)
And the company seems now to be recording music which is more 'mainstream' and for which there is more competition.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 31, 2011, 03:08:22 AM
I don't know if Pettersson has much of a future even in Sweden. I was made a member of a Facebook group of the Pettersson Society by a Swedish friend. The appended photo doesn't bode too well...
Although the Society does make Pettersson's fanbase look like a bunch of aging old men, I know a lot of younger Pettersson fans who rave about his music.
I think the challenge for Pettersson's legacy surviving is that his music is almost entirely orchestral, and orchestras are declining with economic crises and the pressure to make more "accessible" programmes. If Pettersson had written more chamber music, that could continue to be performed by informal ensembles in conservatories and such, allowing him to be heard somewhat more often.
That hasn't stopped us being deluged by Mahler and Bruckner!
I don't think that the problem with Pettersson is at all "accessibility" of his musical idiom; I don't think there's any "difficulty" in his musical language at all, at all.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
Wow, that is one sad looking group of people! :'(
'Hot Babes for Pettersson'!!! :o
New marketing strategy:
(http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/article/895/895849/babe-of-the-week-080108-20080801014859705-000.jpg)
Pettersson CD's will get you laid!** This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Pettersson CD's are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. You should discuss the potential benefits and risks of Pettersson CD's with your doctor. Common side effects include depression, impotence, hair loss, and spontaneous combustion.
Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 05:56:29 AM
Pettersson CD's will get you laid!
Oh, I have my doubts . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 06:01:27 AM
Oh, I have my doubts . . . .
You're just pessimistic from listening to too much Pettersson ;D
Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 06:28:09 AM
You're just pessimistic from listening to too much Pettersson ;D
Actually, my sunny optimism is intact, and Pettersson hasn't done much at all for me ; )
Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 05:56:29 AM
New marketing strategy:
(http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/article/895/895849/babe-of-the-week-080108-20080801014859705-000.jpg)
Pettersson CD's will get you laid!*
* This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Pettersson CD's are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. You should discuss the potential benefits and risks of Pettersson CD's with your doctor. Common side effects include depression, impotence, hair loss, and spontaneous combustion.
I agree a new marketing strategy is necessary and endorse the use of hot babes but I also think truth in advertising should be maintained.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/petterssonsuicide.jpg)
Sarge
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2011, 06:56:44 AM
I agree a new marketing strategy is necessary and endorse the use of hot babes but I also think truth in advertising should be maintained.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/petterssonsuicide.jpg)
Sarge
That's hilarious!! :-*
You know, I haven't seen a naked woman in a long time. :'(
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 06:40:21 AM
Actually, my sunny optimism is intact, and Pettersson hasn't done much at all for me ; )
All jokes aside, I think there is a lot of Pettersson that's not worth my time, but I still think
Symphonies Nos. 6-8 are his masterpieces along with his
Violin Concerto No. 2. Too much of Pettersson is meandering and it never gets to the point fast enough for me, but I think these works I mentioned are, by far, the only saving grace for Pettersson. If it weren't for these four works, I would have probably never bothered to listen to any of his music. All it took was me listening to his other symphonies outside of these works to come to this conclusion.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 01, 2011, 08:27:24 PM
All jokes aside, I think there is a lot of Pettersson that's not worth my time, but I still think Symphonies Nos. 6-8 are his masterpieces along with his Violin Concerto No. 2. Too much of Pettersson is meandering and it never gets to the point fast enough for me, but I think these works I mentioned are, by far, the only saving grace for Pettersson.
I forget just which of those (6-8) best impressed me, but I expect your assessment is fair (though personally I shouldn't apply the word masterpieces to them). I'll revisit the Second Vn Cto, but honestly, the first listen bored me pert near out of my skull. For which reason, although in principle I will listen to it again some day, I'm in no great hurry : )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2011, 03:54:33 AM
I forget just which of those (6-8) best impressed me, but I expect your assessment is fair (though personally I shouldn't apply the word masterpieces to them). I'll revisit the Second Vn Cto, but honestly, the first listen bored me pert near out of my skull. For which reason, although in principle I will listen to it again some day, I'm in no great hurry : )
That sense of him going on and on can drive you mad, I agree. I had that with Sympnpny No. 9. Terrible. But I really love his three works for string orchestra, the Second Violin Concerto, symphonies 6-8 and 15. And his Barefoot Songs are beautiful, too. But I must admit that listening to Pettersson isn't my greatest pleasure in musical life, he's too depressing for that (most of the time).
I'm afraid I'm with Karl on this one. Pettersson mixes equal parts of Sibelius, Mahler and Shostakovich, but with very little of their structural finesse or memorable material.
I'd better make a showing, given how I seem to be one of the few who likes the composer's early and late works as much as the middle ones.
The 2nd is a remarkable statement of intent. It's also an interesting view onto Pettersson with his influences more clear - like Vagn Holmboe, the composer synthesises lessons from Sibelius into a provocative and strong symphonic structure. It also shines light on Pettersson's inherent "difficulty". I feel that this demonstrates that the difficulties people have with the composer's style is not just the crescendo-assaults of the later symphonies, which are just surface effects (albeit powerful ones), the key unease is in the musical structures as a whole, the outbursts just heighten the power of these transitions or movements when required. 3 and 4 are transitional, laboratory works in which the mature style of the composer is mapped out. No.4 in particular has many hallmarks of the later symphonies, and yet still lacks that sense of occasion, the elemental unfolding or unraveling of an enormous structure - the sense that at any point the entire symphony rests upon what is unfolding before you, as though on a needle-point. It's still all too ground-based, and yet by any other standard these are very potent works. The 5th is the first work in which Pettersson manages to apply these qualities, which then flower in Nos.6-8.
The 9th is rather unremitting, but at the same time a refreshing break from the overt sentimentality of the middle group. It's the composer at his least refined, most craggy and in some instances his most interesting. Nos.10 and 11 are a great little duo, each seem to be trying to find purpose after the 9th. The 10th finds the answer in even more concentrated hostility. At the very ending, with the swirling woodwinds caught in the gathering crescendo have parallels with motifs in the 7th, but taken to the brink and forcefully snuffed out. The 11th is more mercurial, especially in its ending.
The 12th is odd. It's not half as neurotic as I would like, its tempo often surges and soars with little wallowing or morbidity. The 12th more than the other works allows a rare glimpse of Pettersson as a thinker, and I feel that it says a lot about the composer that the texts he chooses were not set to endless musical dirges. By No.13, Pettersson feels secure to return to a work with the scope of the 9th, and overall the piece feels more successful. The method of the work involves less oppressive grinding, and more in the continual building and releasing of tension like a steam-powered engine filling and expelling. As so often with Pettersson, the ending is a great success and one of the highlights of the piece.
By the 14th, Pettersson has almost returned to the middle works in scale and tone. The work is tragic and with hints towards a potential return to the melodic nature of those earlier pieces (c.14:00-15:30 come close to offering memorable material in this manner, although harshly pared back. Ditto c.27:00-29:00, with chorale-style would-be melodies being mangled in a typically middle-trilogy manner). However, some elements of Pettersson's style have moved away from the quasi-Romantic sweep that makes those works (relatively) popular, and this offers as many plus as minus points to me. It enables the work to present its message with greater ambiguity through the complexity of the music, and I feel that it's this complexity - which replaces some of the "assaults" in some of the earlier works - which is the core to the composer's greatest talents. A weepy woodwind line can do its job, but to represent emotions on a tectonic level, with the orchestra making almost physically palpable shifts, I find effective.
Happily, the 15th is another evolution. I find this work to be more emotionally cool than the previous few, and the virtuosity of Pettersson's writing becomes fully abstracted and removed from the human condition. The 16th will always stand out, whatever peoples view of it. I view the composer's use of the soloist as a great idea, and remarkably well-integrated. There is a distinct decline in ambition after the previous couple of works, but considering the direction I perceive the composer's music to have been heading, it makes a lot of sense. It feels retrospective, personal on a renewed level, and perhaps more human because of the difficult steps taken to reach here.
Many thanks for that insightful overview of Pettersson's symphonic canon, Sara! I don't know if I'll ever be able to be so 'inside' this music as you obviously are or have been. It seems also to depend on your (my) mood. When I was in one of the toughest stretches of my mature life (end 2008- beginning 2009) a few of Pettersson's pieces spoke to me like they have never done since. The first movement of No. 8 struck me as among the most beautiful music I'd ever heard and No. 15 came across as the belated sequel to Bruckner's Ninth, I found it that sublime. But I haven't been able to recapture that feeling. Very strange.
Very interesting, Sara & Johan both. I can only listen with my own ears, of course . . . but I do find it interesting and rewarding when an alternative view is expressed so well.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 05:49:09 AM
But I haven't been able to recapture that feeling. Very strange.
You are not the same person from one moment to the next.
@Johan I definitely have problems appreciating the later works when I am not in a Pettersson mood. I think that it is to do with my willingness to wait for the waypoints that I enjoy so much, such as c ~28m in No.14, which leads into a gripping close for me - does this make the first half hour redundant? Possibly, if I'm not feeling generous. The main thing that I must do to convince myself of the composer's worth even when I don't want to listen to the music (yet am willing to admire it from afar) is to remember that when the music speaks to me, the composer's influences or choice of tone is irrelevent - the structure itself is vivid and alive. Beyond any grumpiness, it is what a great structural writer Pettersson is that sticks in my mind - I only require a certain psychological trigger to notice it.
It's not Pettersson alone who requires his 'baggage' to be laid aside before the music can be appreciated. Certain Romantic poets like Shelley can easily be mocked by aesthetes, but the qualities there are undeniable... The elephant in the room with Pettersson is the grimness, yet I can't imagine the music having the power it does without such measures. Also, crucially, it's not a cheap effect - from the ground-up, the music seems to be waiting for this kind of tone, from the single-span structures, to the topographic style and elemental shifts, and even the general "otherness" of the composer's setting of themes seemingly cast adrift at first, but actually very subtly connected together.
Quote from: MN Dave on September 02, 2011, 06:04:50 AM
You are not the same person from one moment to the next.
We finally have a philosopher from Minnesota!
Quote from: MN Dave on September 02, 2011, 06:04:50 AM
You are not the same person from one moment to the next.
I think I wasn't 'myself' in those months of crisis. But let's return to Allan!
Quote from: springrite on September 02, 2011, 06:08:27 AM
We finally have a philosopher from Minnesota!
Derail more music threads with philosophy, I say! ;)
@Sara There are passages in Pettersson that make all the 'suffering' you have to endure worthwhile. But I sometimes wish he had found a more economic way to combine grimness and pleasure (Brian springs to mind, the Symphonia Brevis, lashing and uplifting you in only 9 minutes...)
Curses, I'm halfway through my third listen of the 14th now, and somehow it's still delighting me. I often have to be in a good mood when I listen to the composer's music, but when I do find it catching alight for me, it's very uplifting and energetic - providing that I have the required surplus of positive energy to draw from.
Do I sense an ID change in the air? . . .
Superb post surveying the symphonies, Sara :)
Makes me want to go back to listen to the symphonies again.....which is what a good post on GMG should do :)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2011, 03:54:33 AM
I forget just which of those (6-8) best impressed me, but I expect your assessment is fair (though personally I shouldn't apply the word masterpieces to them). I'll revisit the Second Vn Cto, but honestly, the first listen bored me pert near out of my skull. For which reason, although in principle I will listen to it again some day, I'm in no great hurry : )
Pettersson's music isn't everyday music for me. It's music I listen to when I'm a special kind of mood. I'm mainly an easy-going, happy-go-lucky kind of person and listening to Pettersson on one of my brighter days is wholly depressing. I find more joy in Berg and Schoenberg than I do Pettersson. :D
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 02, 2011, 05:36:32 AM
I'd better make a showing, given how I seem to be one of the few who likes the composer's early and late works as much as the middle ones.
....
A belated thank you. You've given me incentive to tackle the cycle again.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2011, 08:29:46 AM
A belated thank you. You've given me incentive to tackle the cycle again.
Sweet! :3
Ironically the most depressing thing I find about Pettersson is not his music, but how infrequently people tend to find themselves in the mood for listening to him. I am often like that, but find most success when I try to listen to it distantly, as musical building blocks, not manic episodes ;)
It goes without saying, but do report your eventual findings. Maybe this thread can reach the glory days of the old one. Wait, that one wasn't very glorious at times...
Excellent discussion. I am glad that several of you have decided to re-survey Pettersson's oeuvre.
In the recently released Pettersson documentary on BIS, Per-Henning Olsson says (at least in the English subtitles) that perhaps it is time for people to start listening to Pettersson's work from a strictly musical perspective, and to stop getting caught up in the biographical details of his life, particularly his difficult childhood. While I believe this is possible, from my biased perspective as a Pettersson fan, I think one reason why Pettersson's music turns many people off is because it just doesn't "work" in conventional ways.
Any Pettersson fan will tell you that repetition is a significant element of many of Pettersson's works. One example I would like to point out is track 6 of the CPO recording of the 9th. If you listen to this section from the point of view of a casual listener--or even an experienced classical music enthusiast who is unfamiliar with Pettersson, it is easy to dismiss this section as endless, pointless note spinning. But I personally think that one has to bear in mind the biographical circumstances of Pettersson's life when listening to his music. This particular passage is drawn out to the point of being annoying, if not maddening. But maybe this maddening repetition was a part of Pettersson's life: the endless pain and isolation he experienced? I certainly don't think that Brahms or Tchiakovsky could have gotten away with repetition the same way Pettersson does. Pettersson's music only "works" because it is Pettersson.
Another thing which I think that makes Pettersson's challenging for some listeners is that sometimes the symphonies only "make sense" after repeated, beginning-to-end, deeply attentive listening. This isn't always easy considering the length of these works. I consider myself a serious Pettersson fan, and only after close to ten listenings in my current survey have I finally come to my own "understanding" of the eleventh.
Anyways, let me put in another shameless advertisement: please visit my blog and leave comments! I am surveying all of Pettersson's orchestral works for his 100th birthday year. I'm taking a bit of a break now because I'm preparing an audition (I hope to play Pettersson's 7th in Berlin next year!), but I'll get back to the updates next month.
http://allanpettersson100.blogspot.com/
Thanks guys!
Quote from: AP100 on September 13, 2011, 08:49:45 PM
I certainly don't think that Brahms or Tchiakovsky could have gotten away with repetition the same way Pettersson does. Pettersson's music only "works" because it is Pettersson.
The composer does seem quite willing to allow his reputation to take the inevitable critical swipe with moments like that, confident that none the less it'll be understood eventually, or at least be considered to have value despite what some consider as his obnoxious moments. A laudable attitude, really.
http://www.youtube.com/v/fJeu5xL_sE4
Thought you might like.
A Swedish documentary about Pettersson. Even if you can't understand the language, you can see and hear the composer. Quite revealing, I think (answering questions with closed eyes behind dark glasses).
http://svtplay.se/v/2539063/dokumentar_vem_fan_ar_allan_pettersson (http://svtplay.se/v/2539063/dokumentar_vem_fan_ar_allan_pettersson)
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 01:04:05 PM
A Swedish documentary about Pettersson. Even if you can't understand the language, you can see and hear the composer. Quite revealing, I think (answering questions with closed eyes behind dark glasses).
http://svtplay.se/v/2539063/dokumentar_vem_fan_ar_allan_pettersson (http://svtplay.se/v/2539063/dokumentar_vem_fan_ar_allan_pettersson)
Thanks so much for posting this, Johan! Of course I don't speak Swedish, but this was kind of uncomfortable to watch. I quit watching after about 10 minutes. I didn't need to see anymore.
Dilemma. Cannot watch that while at the office. And . . . do I want to watch that when I'm at home? . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 22, 2011, 05:03:14 AM
Dilemma. Cannot watch that while at the office. And . . . do I want to watch that when I'm at home? . . .
Just a few minutes at home are survivable. You're a big boy now, Karl. ;D
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 05:26:45 AM
Just a few minutes at home are survivable. You're a big boy now, Karl. ;D
Survival isn't a question, mon cher. Will I think, I should really be writing my own music instead, though . . . that's what I am considering : )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 22, 2011, 05:29:03 AM
Survival isn't a question, mon cher. Will I think, I should really be writing my own music instead, though . . . that's what I am considering : )
Oh, well, if it's a choice between old Pettersson and new Henning, choose the latter.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 21, 2011, 07:05:05 PM
Thanks so much for posting this, Johan! Of course I don't speak Swedish, but this was kind of uncomfortable to watch. I quit watching after about 10 minutes. I didn't need to see anymore.
I have bookmarked this page. I have listened for so long it is really great to see a live Pettersson than that same photo on every disc, and every article....Maybe I can find someone to translate the interview......Maybe one of our members can give me an idea about this interview..
The Radio Philharmonisch Orkest performed Pettersson's Seventh on 17 September at the Amsterdam Concertgebouw. The stream is still there...:
http://concerthuis.radio4.nl/zaal/3/Orkestmuziek_zaal (http://concerthuis.radio4.nl/zaal/3/Orkestmuziek_zaal)
Although I don't speak a word of Swedish I found the video interview with Pettersson to be very moving - I could only watch the first few minutes - the long silences, interspersed with Pettersson's pained utterances were difficult viewing. I would love to know what he was saying. Very many thanks for posting Johan.
If I concentrate, I can follow a fait bit of it (because I 'know' Danish). I'll see if I can give a short recap [in the near future!]
An arrangement for string orchestra of a short piano piece, 'Lamento'. Beautiful!
http://youtu.be/8A0KuFdGzBc (http://youtu.be/8A0KuFdGzBc)
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 24, 2011, 12:14:00 PM
An arrangement for string orchestra of a short piano piece, 'Lamento'. Beautiful!
http://youtu.be/8A0KuFdGzBc (http://youtu.be/8A0KuFdGzBc)
Yes, that is gorgeous indeed, Johan.
I was able to find the two Segerstam BIS recordings I was lacking and also picked up the new Lindberg led recording, which also features an hour documentary on the preparation of
Symphony No. 1:
[asin]B0000269CR[/asin]
[asin]B000025UUB[/asin]
[asin]B005KQVDBE[/asin]
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 06:03:33 PM
Yes, that is gorgeous indeed, Johan.
I was able to find the two Segerstam BIS recordings I was lacking and also picked up the new Lindberg led recording, which also features an hour documentary on the preparation of Symphony No. 1:
[asin]B0000269CR[/asin]
[asin]B000025UUB[/asin]
[asin]B005KQVDBE[/asin]
I never knew there was a symphony 1. I have the others but how do you like 1.
The first symphony of Pettersson is something he worked on for many, many years only to continue putting aside again and again. He left the work only in sketches, but, an interesting point I read from the conductor Christian Lindberg, is he must have felt a strong connection with the music for him to name the symphony after the first his second.
Forgive me for throwing up my hands at the sight of the new Lindberg release. :'(
When?, oh when??...
Quote from: snyprrr on October 24, 2011, 06:48:53 PM
Forgive me for throwing up my hands at the sight of the new Lindberg release. :'(
When?, oh when??...
???
What are you talking about?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 06:50:23 PM
???
What are you talking about?
When will BIS stop pussyfooting around the issue and get to the likes of 9, 13, & 14? Ahhhh >:D
Quote from: snyprrr on October 24, 2011, 07:05:15 PM
When will BIS stop pussyfooting around the issue and get to the likes of 9, 13, & 14? Ahhhh >:D
Oh, I see. Let's hope Lindberg finishes the rest of the cycle. I'm re-listening to the 9th right now. This is some seriously depressing stuff! :D The 9th is a tough nut to crack.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 07:16:24 PM
Oh, I see. Let's hope Lindberg finishes the rest of the cycle. I'm re-listening to the 9th right now. This is some seriously depressing stuff! :D The 9th is a tough nut to crack.
At least the 6th then! ;D Oh, but when?? :'(
Quote from: snyprrr on October 25, 2011, 05:44:18 AM
At least the 6th then! ;D Oh, but when?? :'(
Yeah, the 6th is in desperate need of a new recording. The Trojahn/Deutsches Symphony Orchestra Berlin is serviceable, but it really needs a recording of greater clarity.
I would like to hear Chandos do a one-off disc of maybe 6, 7, 14 or 15 - the latter three could nicely couple with either 10 or 11. Although I have far too many fantasy recordings involving that label, Havergal Brian's 2nd being near the top.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on October 25, 2011, 07:57:27 AMI would like to hear Chandos do a one-off disc of maybe 6, 7, 14 or 15 - the latter three could nicely couple with either 10 or 11.
The general problem I have with Pettersson's later music is it's just relentless and seems to just go on and on with no kind of relief.
Symphonies No. 6-8, and also
Violin Concerto No. 2, have these moments of serenity and lyrical beauty that make the musical journey worth taking. If you can sit through say
Symphony No. 9, then you're a much stronger person than I am. I haven't listened to the 11th, 14th, and 15th in quite some time, what are these symphonies like?
By the way, I own the whole set of symphonies on CPO and I've made my through the whole box already. I just can't remember much about the later symphonies other than what I said about them above.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 08:14:18 AM
I haven't listened to the 11th, 14th, and 15th in quite some time, what are these symphonies like?
I made a little survey of them somewhere or other. The 11th is his most sphinx-like symphony, doing its own thing without any real emotional reference. It's not his usual darkness and light journey, it floats along inscrutably neither optimistically nor pessimistically, but in a peculiar middle-ground which is unsettling in its own right. When the orchestra becomes antsy, it evens out afterwards and as a result is that there is less of a sense of journey in the music and more of a feeling of an episode in a larger picture. It has a similar ambiguous and other-worldly sense to it as, perhaps, Robert Simpson's 11th. The 15th is quite similar to the 11th and it doesn't rely on assault for its argument as -say- the 9th and 10th do. If the associations with a grey sky that I have with the 11th could be contrasted here, I find the 15th darker, intellectually, but not musically. It seems to be less ambivalent than the 11th, and in its Apollonian nature isn't as abrasive as some of his earlier works, but because it's very advanced into the composer's development, despite that lack of violence it's perhaps more alienating than the others simply due to the lack of a simple resolution to the argument.
I find the 14th to be his best symphony although I will concede that I can understand why most prefer his 6th and 7th (to name his two most "favourited" works as I perceive it). I find his later style to be more engaging because it doesn't need 'nice' parts: it must stand on its own two feet and the 14th I feel does this best while retaining the biggest scope for drama and the feeling of a journey travelled. It's similar in style to the 13th, but a lot more concise and slightly more thematically interesting. I find it easier to listen to without becoming sick of big tunes (over-familiarity with the three note motif in the 7th stops me listening very often) or depressed by the tone than the earlier works because by now the composer's style has become instead of based around emotion, more concentrated on orchestral technique and abstracted symphonic argument. The "collisions" that occur in the symphony are more exhilarating than gut-wrenching, and it keeps the music fresh for me personally. It also exposes the composer's more distinctive techniques due to them not needing to sound cathartic - for example the brass taking flight at 27:55 is starkly minimal with its supporting strings and growling underpinning from percussion and orchestra. Instead of thinking "wow that's sad", I feel "what a cool effect/scoring". The reason why I say I find this one the best is that as much as I enjoy the total abstraction of nos.10, 11 and 15, I find the 14th to be a decent compromise between the style of the 6th, and his later works. It has a few allusions to those works, a similar arc and while the days of Pettersson playing the Romantic are gone, there is much in common on a structural level.
This could probably be edited down to sound better but apologies for the laziness, I'm burnt out. Made a few clarity ones, though.
Re-charge, Sara! : )
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on October 25, 2011, 08:52:33 AM
I made a little survey of them somewhere or other. The 11th is his most sphinx-like symphony, doing its own thing without any real emotional reference. It's not his usual darkness and light journey, it floats along inscrutably neither optimistically nor pessimistically, but in a peculiar middle-ground which is unsettling in its own right. When the orchestra becomes antsy, it evens out afterwards and as a result is that there is less of a sense of journey in the music and more of a feeling of an episode in a larger picture. It has a similar ambiguous and other-worldly sense to it as, perhaps, Robert Simpson's 11th. The 15th is quite similar to the 11th and it doesn't rely on assault for its argument as -say- the 9th and 10th do. If the associations with a grey sky that I have with the 11th could be contrasted here, I find the 15th darker, intellectually, but not musically. It seems to be less ambivalent than the 11th, and in its Apollonian nature isn't as abrasive as some of his earlier works, but because it's very advanced into the composer's development, despite that lack of violence it's perhaps more alienating than the others simply due to the lack of a simple resolution to the argument.
I find the 14th to be his best symphony although I will concede that I can understand why most prefer his 6th and 7th (to name his two most "favourited" works as I perceive it). I find his later style to be more engaging because it doesn't need 'nice' parts: it must stand on its own two feet and the 14th I feel does this best while retaining the biggest scope for drama and the feeling of a journey travelled. It's similar in style to the 13th, but a lot more concise and slightly more thematically interesting. I find it easier to listen to without becoming sick of big tunes (over-familiarity with the three note motif in the 7th stops me listening very often) or depressed by the tone than the earlier works because by now the composer's style has become instead of based around emotion, more concentrated on orchestral technique and abstracted symphonic argument. The "collisions" that occur in the symphony are more exhilarating than gut-wrenching, and it keeps the music fresh for me personally. It also exposes the composer's more distinctive techniques due to them not needing to sound cathartic - for example the brass taking flight at 27:55 is starkly minimal with its supporting strings and growling underpinning from percussion and orchestra. Instead of thinking "wow that's sad", I feel "what a cool effect/scoring". The reason why I say I find this one the best is that as much as I enjoy the total abstraction of nos.10, 11 and 15, I find the 14th to be a decent compromise between the style of the 6th, and his later works. It has a few allusions to those works, a similar arc and while the days of Pettersson playing the Romantic are gone, there is much in common on a structural level.
This could probably be edited down to sound better but apologies for the laziness, I'm burnt out.
Thank you taking the time to explain to me how you feel about these later symphonies. I did, however, find your earlier post where you went through the symphonies and offered a summary of them. Reading your above post was interesting.
Now, may I offer an alternative view?
My initial reaction to Pettersson was actually very favorable. The first symphonies I heard were the 7th and 11th with Segerstam/Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra. I think I'll always have a special place in my heart for the 7th, because I like the style of Pettersson's writing. That darkness and light contrast is an interesting one in his middle symphonies. One reason why I can't get completely onboard with Pettersson is because I find, too often, especially in remembrance of the later symphonies, that the music, as I said, just seems to go on forever, which, for me, seems pointless. The structure of the music may be fascinating for you or someone else, but structure alone doesn't make a piece work for me. It has to have more. I'm not opposed to tense, turbulent music, but it has to have a purpose. The thing with Pettersson is I think his musical argument became disengaging, especially in the 9th where it just seems to be endless note-spinning. There were some cool sounding sections in this symphony, but I just couldn't sit through it. It's not that I'm against his music, it's just that I find so much of lacking any clear direction and the orchestral effects only go so far. He's certainly a composer that I'm intrigued by, but only because I wonder
why he chose to compose music in this manner. The general aesthetic of his music I find displeasing. There isn't much color, which I like in music. It stays almost in one frame of mind for the whole work, but it is that trilogy of the 6th, 7th, and 8th is where I agree that this composer had a special communicative gift and a sound that nobody else had. He worked in his own idiom for sure, but it seems that I'm much more interested in contrasts in music.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 25, 2011, 09:18:05 AM
Re-charge, Sara! : )
Karl, you visit this thread quite a bit when there's some new posts. Do you actually like Pettersson's music? What music have you heard of his?
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on October 25, 2011, 08:52:33 AM
I made a little survey of them somewhere or other. The 11th is his most sphinx-like symphony, doing its own thing without any real emotional reference. It's not his usual darkness and light journey, it floats along inscrutably neither optimistically nor pessimistically, but in a peculiar middle-ground which is unsettling in its own right. When the orchestra becomes antsy, it evens out afterwards and as a result is that there is less of a sense of journey in the music and more of a feeling of an episode in a larger picture. It has a similar ambiguous and other-worldly sense to it as, perhaps, Robert Simpson's 11th. The 15th is quite similar to the 11th and it doesn't rely on assault for its argument as -say- the 9th and 10th do. If the associations with a grey sky that I have with the 11th could be contrasted here, I find the 15th darker, intellectually, but not musically. It seems to be less ambivalent than the 11th, and in its Apollonian nature isn't as abrasive as some of his earlier works, but because it's very advanced into the composer's development, despite that lack of violence it's perhaps more alienating than the others simply due to the lack of a simple resolution to the argument.
I find the 14th to be his best symphony although I will concede that I can understand why most prefer his 6th and 7th (to name his two most "favourited" works as I perceive it). I find his later style to be more engaging because it doesn't need 'nice' parts: it must stand on its own two feet and the 14th I feel does this best while retaining the biggest scope for drama and the feeling of a journey travelled. It's similar in style to the 13th, but a lot more concise and slightly more thematically interesting. I find it easier to listen to without becoming sick of big tunes (over-familiarity with the three note motif in the 7th stops me listening very often) or depressed by the tone than the earlier works because by now the composer's style has become instead of based around emotion, more concentrated on orchestral technique and abstracted symphonic argument. The "collisions" that occur in the symphony are more exhilarating than gut-wrenching, and it keeps the music fresh for me personally. It also exposes the composer's more distinctive techniques due to them not needing to sound cathartic - for example the brass taking flight at 27:55 is starkly minimal with its supporting strings and growling underpinning from percussion and orchestra. Instead of thinking "wow that's sad", I feel "what a cool effect/scoring". The reason why I say I find this one the best is that as much as I enjoy the total abstraction of nos.10, 11 and 15, I find the 14th to be a decent compromise between the style of the 6th, and his later works. It has a few allusions to those works, a similar arc and while the days of Pettersson playing the Romantic are gone, there is much in common on a structural level.
This could probably be edited down to sound better but apologies for the laziness, I'm burnt out. Made a few clarity ones, though.
I think 11 is my fav.v. Shouldn't it rank up there with other 20min. single movement Symphonies?... maybe not Sibelius :-[, but...
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 06:47:22 PM
The first symphony of Pettersson is something he worked on for many, many years only to continue putting aside again and again. He left the work only in sketches, but, an interesting point I read from the conductor Christian Lindberg, is he must have felt a strong connection with the music for him to name the symphony after the first his second.
John
Is this a yes on the first.......
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 08:14:18 AM
The general problem I have with Pettersson's later music is it's just relentless and seems to just go on and on with no kind of relief. Symphonies No. 6-8, and also Violin Concerto No. 2, have these moments of serenity and lyrical beauty that make the musical journey worth taking. If you can sit through say Symphony No. 9, then you're a much stronger person than I am. I haven't listened to the 11th, 14th, and 15th in quite some time, what are these symphonies like?
By the way, I own the whole set of symphonies on CPO and I've made my through the whole box already. I just can't remember much about the later symphonies other than what I said about them above.
Well then I guess I won't have to ask you how you feel about Morton Feldmans music ;D
Quote from: Robert on October 25, 2011, 10:09:33 AM
John
Is this a yes on the first.......
I have never heard his first symphony. This recording is a world premiere.
Quote from: Robert on October 25, 2011, 10:13:21 AM
Well then I guess I won't have to ask you how you feel about Morton Feldmans music ;D
Loved
Rothko Chapel, haven't bothered exploring anything else for whatever reasons.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 09:18:55 AM
My initial reaction to Pettersson was actually very favorable. The first symphonies I heard were the 7th and 11th with Segerstam/Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra. I think I'll always have a special place in my heart for the 7th, because I like the style of Pettersson's writing. That darkness and light contrast is an interesting one in his middle symphonies. One reason why I can't get completely onboard with Pettersson is because I find, too often, especially in remembrance of the later symphonies, that the music, as I said, just seems to go on forever, which, for me, seems pointless. The structure of the music may be fascinating for you or someone else, but structure alone doesn't make a piece work for me. It has to have more. I'm not opposed to tense, turbulent music, but it has to have a purpose. The thing with Pettersson is I think his musical argument became disengaging, especially in the 9th where it just seems to be endless note-spinning. There were some cool sounding sections in this symphony, but I just couldn't sit through it. It's not that I'm against his music, it's just that I find so much of lacking any clear direction and the orchestral effects only go so far. He's certainly a composer that I'm intrigued by, but only because I wonder why he chose to compose music in this manner. The general aesthetic of his music I find displeasing. There isn't much color, which I like in music. It stays almost in one frame of mind for the whole work, but it is that trilogy of the 6th, 7th, and 8th is where I agree that this composer had a special communicative gift and a sound that nobody else had. He worked in his own idiom for sure, but it seems that I'm much more interested in contrasts in music.
Given what you mention, I think you will like the 14th, it's his closest to the "affective" undulations of the middle works. Pettersson
is near-uniquely lacking in musical colour. I think it's because he is so rigidly symphonic in his thought, and consequently lacking in concerto grosso-style sections ("here is an instrumental duo/trio", "here's where the orchestra passes material to one another" and so forth) that you find in a composer like Mahler, that the music becomes about the architectural qualities rather than the intimate ones. Solos or chamber sections are almost always used to reinforce this feeling of a full orchestral display, and as a result are often written to sound cold.
Preferences will naturally depend on the listener's expectations. I used to be ambivolous to everything outside of nos.6 and 7 (for some reason I've never liked the 8th), and my change of mind didn't come from repeat listening, but from being familiar with the sound of those later works and turning to them when I felt that I was in the mood - and fortunately they clicked. Where I gained an interest with Pettersson as a technician was by the time I had seen several people dismissing the music on an aesthetic level, so tried to listen to it with the emotional aspect removed to see what it was like and found myself pleasantly surprised. More than most symphonists of his age, Pettersson's music has a strikingly individual quality, miles away from merely relying on the emotive post-Romantic angry rumbles, as if he were a less optimistic Shostakovich or something.
In a work that I find less successful, like the 9th or 13th, the length does become a problem. But overall the later works tend to be proportioned quite well and perhaps just await the right mood to enjoy. The 10th or 11th might act as gateways due to their brevity, though the first of those is more concentrated harshness than even the 9th. The 12th is outright attractive IMO, with an affirmative tone and attractive choral writing. Not the battleship grey work I was expecting.
Edit: I don't think that I addressed your points enough - I also felt that the later works went nowhere when I first got into Pettersson. I can't be so disingenuous as to claim that you will like them if you try harder, I think it's more that what I was looking for changed as I became weary of listening to the same works. It also helps to consider them as modernistic music rather than extensions of Romanticism; allowing them to offer their own logic, not neccessarily of a traditional course.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 10:19:57 AM
Loved Rothko Chapel, haven't bothered exploring anything else for whatever reasons.
I'll take this elsewhere . . . .
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 10:14:47 AM
I have never heard his first symphony. This recording is a world premiere.
Sorry about that. I thought you purchased it...
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 10:19:57 AM
Loved Rothko Chapel, haven't bothered exploring anything else for whatever reasons.
I also like Rothko. I happen to like him. I just need the time and Patience....
Quote from: Robert on October 25, 2011, 10:31:12 AM
Sorry about that. I thought you purchased it...
I did purchase it, but I haven't received the recording yet in the mail.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on October 25, 2011, 10:22:46 AM
Given what you mention, I think you will like the 14th, it's his closest to the "affective" undulations of the middle works. Pettersson is near-uniquely lacking in musical colour. I think it's because he is so rigidly symphonic in his thought, and consequently lacking in concerto grosso-style sections ("here is an instrumental duo/trio", "here's where the orchestra passes material to one another" and so forth) that you find in a composer like Mahler, that the music becomes about the architectural qualities rather than the intimate ones. Solos or chamber sections are almost always used to reinforce this feeling of a full orchestral display, and as a result are often written to sound cold.
Preferences will naturally depend on the listener's expectations. I used to be ambivolous to everything outside of nos.6 and 7 (for some reason I've never liked the 8th), and my change of mind didn't come from repeat listening, but from being familiar with the sound of those later works and turning to them when I felt that I was in the mood - and fortunately they clicked. Where I gained an interest with Pettersson as a technician was by the time I had seen several people dismissing the music on an aesthetic level, so tried to listen to it with the emotional aspect removed to see what it was like and found myself pleasantly surprised. More than most symphonists of his age, Pettersson's music has a strikingly individual quality, miles away from merely relying on the emotive post-Romantic angry rumbles, as if he were a less optimistic Shostakovich or something.
In a work that I find less successful, like the 9th or 13th, the length does become a problem. But overall the later works tend to be proportioned quite well and perhaps just await the right mood to enjoy. The 10th or 11th might act as gateways due to their brevity, though the first of those is more concentrated harshness than even the 9th. The 12th is outright attractive IMO, with an affirmative tone and attractive choral writing. Not the battleship grey work I was expecting.
Edit: I don't think that I addressed your points enough - I also felt that the later works went nowhere when I first got into Pettersson. I can't be so disingenuous as to claim that you will like them if you try harder, I think it's more that what I was looking for changed as I became weary of listening to the same works. It also helps to consider them as modernistic music rather than extensions of Romanticism; allowing them to offer their own logic, not neccessarily of a traditional course.
I suppose I like music that has a little Romantic residue left in it. :) This is why I find 6-8 more of my speed because of their Romantic overtones. The music after these symphonies just doesn't hit me. I need relief in music. I don't like persistent anguish, which is what Pettersson's music represents to me. As I said, I like color and different approaches to harmony. I'm glad that you've found a composer you connect with. I've already found mine and his name is Charles Koechlin. 8)
I'm not hearing anything about the Saxophone Symphony 16. I haven't heard it for years, but that was still pretty huge, no?
So I only have the 7th, I love its relentless darkness and now I'm in the mood for some more. Do I really need to buy the box? Is it all like that, one dark journey? If No's 1-5 are chirpy conga music and 10-16 are post-artistic highpoint noodling then I wonder whether I need them (not saying they are, it's just the darkness I'm looking for). I hear good things about 6-9 as a group. Are these the darkest and most stark of the cycle?
I see the box at around £60 but if I only need, say 7 and 8, for when I feel like plumbing the depths I'd be happy with just them.
Any advice hear on someone with good knowledge of this cycle would be most appreciated.
The earlier works are a little anonymous but inventive and particularly important in their post-Sibelian context. The later works lack melody and contrast compared to the middle trilogy - some dislike this, others do not (as the past few pages of this thread attest to).
If you interpret the darkness of the music as being in the presence of attractive moments being assaulted, then the later works will disappoint. If you mean it as a relentless grimness and hostility, then they have plenty of that. The exceptions are the 12th, which is a somewhat transcendent work, and the 16th, where the composer finally lets himself have a 'little' fun.
I enjoy most of the cycle but many don't find much of interest beyond 6-8. If you do want to go for a single disc to audition the works, I would suggest 10 & 11 or 14 - Youtube may help, of course.
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 15, 2011, 04:26:59 AM
So I only have the 7th, I love its relentless darkness and now I'm in the mood for some more. Do I really need to buy the box? Is it all like that, one dark journey? If No's 1-5 are chirpy conga music and 10-16 are post-artistic highpoint noodling then I wonder whether I need them (not saying they are, it's just the darkness I'm looking for). I hear good things about 6-9 as a group. Are these the darkest and most stark of the cycle?
I see the box at around £60 but if I only need, say 7 and 8, for when I feel like plumbing the depths I'd be happy with just them.
Any advice hear on someone with good knowledge of this cycle would be most appreciated.
5-8*
9
10-11/15
13-14
16
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 15, 2011, 06:03:03 AM
The earlier works are a little anonymous but inventive and particularly important in their post-Sibelian context. The later works lack melody and contrast compared to the middle trilogy - some dislike this, others do not (as the past few pages of this thread attest to).
If you interpret the darkness of the music as being in the presence of attractive moments being assaulted, then the later works will disappoint. If you mean it as a relentless grimness and hostility, then they have plenty of that. The exceptions are the 12th, which is a somewhat transcendent work, and the 16th, where the composer finally lets himself have a 'little' fun.
I enjoy most of the cycle but many don't find much of interest beyond 6-8. If you do want to go for a single disc to audition the works, I would suggest 10 & 11 or 14 - Youtube may help, of course.
That's very helpful, thanks. I'll skip 1-5 and the box. I'll pick up 8 and 13 or 14 and take it from there.
EDIT:Yep, just bought 8 and 13 (cpo) at about £6 a pop on amazon. I listened to the haunting viola at the end of 13 on youtube and that sold it for me.
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 15, 2011, 04:26:59 AM
So I only have the 7th, I love its relentless darkness and now I'm in the mood for some more. Do I really need to buy the box? Is it all like that, one dark journey? If No's 1-5 are chirpy conga music and 10-16 are post-artistic highpoint noodling then I wonder whether I need them (not saying they are, it's just the darkness I'm looking for). I hear good things about 6-9 as a group. Are these the darkest and most stark of the cycle?
I see the box at around £60 but if I only need, say 7 and 8, for when I feel like plumbing the depths I'd be happy with just them.
Any advice hear on someone with good knowledge of this cycle would be most appreciated.
I wish I could share Sara's enthusiasm for Pettersson's idiom, but I cannot. As I have written many times, the 6th, 7th, and 8th are very fine as they contain these moments of light that give relief to constant onslaught of darkness. The 7th in it's slower sections are downright gorgeous, but also haunting. The 6th has this same kind of relief that happens towards the end that makes the journey taken that much more rewarding. The 8th, in two parts, has some wonderful, lyrical slow sections. The rest of Pettersson's symphonies don't do anything for me. I have heard them all and some of them more than others. The 9th is one of the most horrible atrocities he's ever created and I actually yelled out "What the hell were you thinking Pettersson?" about 10 minutes into it. Anyway, proceed with extreme caution. I don't mind dissonance, but when it's dissonance with no kind of rhythmic flexibility or gradual change in tone and it's just one chromatic scale after another, then I find this kind of approach colorless and trite.
The other person work I like is his
Violin Concerto No. 2, which, again, like 6-8, have some beautiful, poignant moments.
Concerning the middle period symphonies: the 6th conducted by Kamu originally on CBS LP is more melodical in the playing than the CPO issue and can be digged up on the web. I find it much better than the CPO.
Dorati´s old Philips LP recording of the 9th is very different from the CPO with Alun Francis; Dorati slows down the music and spends almost 20 minutes more, which makes
the music much more attractive and less stressful. I don´t know if it can be digged up somewhere.
EDIT: Oops, I remembered the conductor name wrongly - it is Comissiona, not Dorati !
Quote from: DieNacht on November 15, 2011, 09:53:26 AMDorati´s old Philips LP recording of the 9th is very different from the CPO with Alun Francis; Dorati slows down the music and spends almost 20 minutes more, which makes
the music much more attractive and less stressful. I don´t know if it can be digged up somewhere.
Twenty more minutes of torture? I wouldn't give it the time of day. No thanks. The 9th is certainly one of the most horrible pieces of music I've ever heard.
It´s the final string song in particular. It´s not different from a lot of other elegiac string music then. But the faster sections become less stressful as well.
I too find the Francis recording usually too much, so you´d have to take my word for this, since you haven`t heard Dorati.
EDIT: Oops, I remembered the conductor name wrongly - it is Comissiona, not Dorati !
Quote from: DieNacht on November 15, 2011, 10:24:52 AM
It´s the final string song in particular. It´s not different from a lot of other elegiac string music then. But the faster sections become less stressful as well.
I too find the Francis recording usually too much, so you´d have to take my word for this, since you haven`t heard Dorati.
Perhaps but Pettersson is a composer I seldom listen to or have the desire to listen to on a more frequent basis. My own problem, not yours or anyone else's.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 10:06:26 AM
Twenty more minutes of torture? I wouldn't give it the time of day. No thanks. The 9th is certainly one of the most horrible pieces of music I've ever heard.
You put it strongly, but I'm afraid I agree. I found the Ninth impossible to get through and stopped after striving heroically for about twenty minutes. Fortunately there are other pieces by P. I can love.
I am beginning to wonder if I am a sadist...
Quote from: springrite on November 22, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
I am beginning to wonder if I am a sadist...
Really! Yes,... I find the 9th to be full of "information", which is the word AGP used to describe all the notes. The 9th in particular, I thought, was the most "musical" noise indeed, frankly very transparent. Well, I do tend to listen to noisy music for the "information", or relationships, therein, and not to the assaulting quality of the tumult. I mean, one can always turn the volume down, and, with the 9th, you can pick it apart track-by-track, so....
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
I just had the 6th (CPO) in the car yesterday, stopped, and when I started the car back up, the cd player spit it out (the cd player's doing this A LOT >:D). Oh, well, 20mins. down the drain, haha. The 6th and 13th are the ones I have trouble with, if only for the single track length.
Anyhow, I thought Penderecki's 2nd was the perfect AGP Symphony! ;) ;D :-*
I love the Sixth! A great journey.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 10:08:00 AM
I love the Sixth! A great journey.
Yes, I agree Johan. It's most definitely one of Pettersson's stronger symphonies. That light/dark contrast really is what makes Pettersson's music
work for me, otherwise, all I really hear is chromatic scale torture. Music needs relief and Pettersson understood this in his middle trilogy of symphonies. As far as I'm concerned, Pettersson only wrote three symphonies that are worth hearing. The rest are just aimless, shapeless masses of noise.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2011, 10:20:52 AM
Yes, I agree Johan. It's most definitely one of Pettersson's stronger symphonies. That light/dark contrast really is what makes Pettersson's music work for me, otherwise, all I really hear is chromatic scale torture. Music needs relief and Pettersson understood this in his middle trilogy of symphonies. As far as I'm concerned, Pettersson only wrote three symphonies that are worth hearing. The rest are just aimless, shapeless masses of noise.
I love these three as well. Bus as No. 15 really spoke to me two years ago, I hold out the hope that a few other symphonies might 'open up' some day, too.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 10:30:14 AM
I love these three as well. Bus as No. 15 really spoke to me two years ago, I hold out the hope that a few other symphonies might 'open up' some day, too.
The main problem I have with Pettersson is that there isn't enough "meat" in the music to hold my interest. Again, I go back to my viewpoint on the light/dark aspects of his middle trilogy and also the
Violin Concerto No 2. These works contain redeeming qualities that make the music worth hearing IMHO.
I know exactly what you mean. That light-dark dichotomy is a structural principle that eases (y)our comprehension of the music's trajectory. But what if the other symphonies do things differently, but with as much validity and we approach them the wrong way? Of course, enjoyment is important. If you don't like the sound the music is making, strenuously working at understanding it is just no fun.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 11:19:21 AM
I know exactly what you mean. That light-dark dichotomy is a structural principle that eases (y)our comprehension of the music's trajectory. But what if the other symphonies do things differently, but with as much validity and we approach them the wrong way? Of course, enjoyment is important. If you don't like the sound the music is making, strenuously working at understanding it is just no fun.
Johan, I like lyrical beauty in music and I simply haven't found it in Pettersson's later symphonies. Maybe I'm just not listening good enough? I really can't honestly say, but I just can't stomach, as I have mentioned before, the constant onslaught of chromatic scales that just seem to come out of nowhere with no rhyme or reason. It's music that baffles me because I'm trying hard to understand the musical language and hopefully get something out of it, but those later works are just too much for me to handle.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2011, 11:23:37 AM
Johan, I like lyrical beauty in music and I simply haven't found it in Pettersson's later symphonies. Maybe I'm just not listening good enough? I really can't honestly say, but I just can't stomach, as I have mentioned before, the constant onslaught of chromatic scales that just seem to come out of nowhere with no rhyme or reason. It's music that baffles me because I'm trying hard to understand the musical language and hopefully get something out of it, but those later works are just too much for me to handle.
I always had the same problem with ALL of Pettersson's music, until I suddenly could appreciate those three middle symphonies, the string concertos and the Violin Concerto. And then No. 15 bowled me over. But yes - I have trouble liking much of Pettersson's music, too. It gets on my nerves.
But no-one is obliged to love anything (only Lear's daughters, perhaps), and that's a big relief!
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2011, 10:40:12 AM
The main problem I have with Pettersson is that there isn't enough "meat" in the music to hold my interest. Again, I go back to my viewpoint on the light/dark aspects of his middle trilogy and also the Violin Concerto No 2. These works contain redeeming qualities that make the music worth hearing IMHO.
"Light" and "Meat" are so overrated. :P
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 11:30:47 AM
I always had the same problem with ALL of Pettersson's music, until I suddenly could appreciate those three middle symphonies, the string concertos and the Violin Concerto. And then No. 15 bowled me over. But yes - I have trouble liking much of Pettersson's music, too. It gets on my nerves.
But no-one is obliged to love anything (only Lear's daughters, perhaps), and that's a big relief!
I probably need to listen to the 15th again. I tried to listen to the 9th a couple of weeks ago and was annoyed. Such an aimless work. But, yes, I get what you're saying. There's plenty of music out there that I do enjoy thankfully.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 10:06:26 AMTwenty more minutes of torture? I wouldn't give it the time of day. No thanks. The 9th is certainly one of the most horrible pieces of music I've ever heard.
Hmm, well. To me, it's the only one I can listen to, after 6-8. And nice ending, btw. 10 is real torture, but short. 13 is long torture.
Quote from: springrite on November 22, 2011, 02:00:43 PM
"Light" and "Meat" are so overrated. :P
You're a tofurkey drumstick man, aren't you? ; )
OMG Pettersson's music is so great!
Quote from: karlhenning on April 01, 2012, 03:32:06 AM
OMG Pettersson's music is so great!
What prompted this discovery just now?
Quote from: The new erato on April 01, 2012, 03:38:36 AM
What prompted this discovery just now?
It just
might have something to do with today's date ;D
Sarge
Well spied, Sarge! — not the sharpest gag for the day, but then, I hadn't had my first cup of tea yet : )
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 01, 2012, 04:05:19 AM
It just might have something to do with today's date ;D
Sarge
He was the Joker? ;)
Well, somebody needed to introduce some cheer here!
For a minute, I thought Karl was serious. :-\ It's too bad because I still admire Pettersson's Symphonies 6-8 and I thought maybe Karl heard what I heard in the music, but it simply is not to be. I hate April Fool's Day. :)
John wrote:
"The general problem I have with Pettersson's later music is it's just relentless and seems to just go on and on with no kind of relief."
That's why I like them, they're just like life.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 01, 2012, 07:43:42 PM
John wrote:
"The general problem I have with Pettersson's later music is it's just relentless and seems to just go on and on with no kind of relief."
That's why I like them, they're just like life.
"Life's a bitch...and then you die." Pettersson's art described in seven words? ;D
Sarge
I dunno, Sarge: that first part sounds just a little . . . cheerful.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2012, 02:32:36 AM
I dunno, Sarge: that first part sounds just a little . . . cheerful.
Depends on your definition of bitch, I suppose ;)
Sarge
Quotehttp://i43.tower.com/images/mm106284325/pettersson-violin-concerto-no-2-etc-haendel-blomstedt-cd-cover-art.jpg
The
2nd Violin Concerto with
Haendel/Blomstedt is controversial music-making. It has been described here as "pure aural torture" for instance, and it is indeed one of the most expressive and dramatic violin concerto recordings there is.
The old LP version of two sides made the work´s construction somewhat clearer than the continuous flow of the CD issue (56mins): a series of struggles gradually leads towards a pure melody of ravishing beauty, calmness gradually
taking over, especially developing from around 31 mins into the work. The introductory conflicts are arresting, but not necessarily that different in the language found for instance in Mahler, Schnittke or Bartok, and one can also choose to see them in a more abstract way as a long series of astonishing variations on simple material, presented in the beginning of the work. To me, the concerto is thus a variation work with an essentially optimistic programme - albeit definitely a demanding one of the kind.
I found that the Keulen/Dausgaard recording is more fragmented and not so good in the rendering of its melodical character. On the other hand, the sound of the orchestra is clearer, if fragmented, with more details, and the overall effect perhaps more subdued, or suitable for a first-time listener.
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201981/58/777861/PETTERSSON.+Violin+Concerto+No.+2.+Ida+Haendel+lvinl,+Swedish+Radio+Symphony+Orchestra++Herbert+Blomstedt.+Caprice+CAP1200+(f4.99(+Notes+included.
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/c/cpr21359a.php
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Feb07/Petterson_7772472.htm
IMHO the Pettersson VC No 2 is one of the greatest VCs of all time.
Quote from: DieNacht on May 27, 2012, 12:44:39 AM...it is indeed one of the most expressive and dramatic violin concerto recordings there is.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 27, 2012, 01:36:25 AM
IMHO the Pettersson VC No 2 is one of the greatest VCs of all time.
I don't disagree with either of you and yet "pure aural torture" is how I hear it. In fact, it's the only Pettersson work I really don't like.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2012, 02:11:35 AM
I don't disagree with either of you and yet "pure aural torture" is how I hear it. In fact, it's the only Pettersson work I really don't like.
Sarge
Hi Sarge,
For me the last few minutes put a retrospective glow on the whole work. I find those last sections almost unbearably moving - especially in view of what we know about Pettersson and his life.
In that work, the orchestral parts behind the solo violin also sometimes contain lyrical passages to dwell on - solo flutes and other wind instrument, string phrasings and pizzicatos etc.
But I understand those who choose to concentrate on other works. Haendel is a truly great violinist of the grand tradition, but perhaps a slower approach at times in the work would be interesting to hear also, adding more lyricism to it.
There are of course more lyrical traits in Pettersson´s oeuvre too, the Barefoot Choral Songs on the Haendel disc being a beautiful example.
Don't forget the moving Mesto movement from String Concerto No. 1.
Pulled out Symphonies 2 (CPO) and 3 (BIS)...
I've always liked No.3; it's structured in four movements, but has the blackest outlook, especially the last movement (which I didn't get to). No.2 is just such a stretch at one movement, and the cd player spit it out, so I didn't get too far; but this one I may have to try to give a little more due to one day.
Still haven't heard the 4th, but in a tantalizing mini clip on YT. Does anyone have a lucid thought on the 4th? (have I asked this before?)
There's a link to a concert performance of the 4th on the unsung composers forum. Actual link to it is below
http://www.mediafire.com/?3twm4xew6chmvav (http://www.mediafire.com/?3twm4xew6chmvav)
I was intrigued when I read the recent discussion of the Violin Concerto No.2, particularly the person who said it was "aural torture", so I listened to the Viola Concerto, which is only half the length, and remembered how much I liked that. Like all Pettersson's music it is relentless and full of strife, with hardly any relief, which, as I said earlier is why I like it, it's just like life.
But there are two other things that I like about it, as with Pettersson's music generally:
1. There isn't any self-pity about it, its attitude is just "chin up, let's get on with it" and in its darkest moments it's like the Samuel Beckett charter who says "I can't go on, I'll go on".
2. There's no great "this is the ultimate explanation" as you get with other composers, the music starts in the middle and ends in the middle, it's a chunk of life, which goes on.
Having said that I'm now downloading the Violin Concerto No.2!
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 20, 2012, 05:51:13 PM
I was intrigued when I read the recent discussion of the Violin Concerto No.2, particularly the person who said it was "aural torture", so I listened to the Viola Concerto, which is only half the length, and remembered how much I liked that. Like all Pettersson's music it is relentless and full of strife, with hardly any relief, which, as I said earlier is why I like it, it's just like life.
But there are two other things that I like about it, as with Pettersson's music generally:
1. There isn't any self-pity about it, its attitude is just "chin up, let's get on with it" and in its darkest moments it's like the Samuel Beckett charter who says "I can't go on, I'll go on".
2. There's no great "this is the ultimate explanation" as you get with other composers, the music starts in the middle and ends in the middle, it's a chunk of life, which goes on.
Having said that I'm now downloading the Violin Concerto No.2!
Very ineresting post - I agree that there is neither self-pity or self-importance with Pettersson. Violin Concerto No 2 remains, for me the greatest violin concerto I have heard - I find it both deeply moving and ultimately inspiriting.
The aural torture is mainly (but not entirely) caused by the sound and balance of the Blomstedt/Haendel recording. The violin is forwardly placed, the orchestra relatively backwardly placed, and in order for me to hear the interesting orchestral detail clearly the volume has to be turned up to an uncomfortable degree, making the violin quite loud and piercing. I'm listening to the Dausgaard/von Kuelen CD now and the balance is better. Even at a low volume the orchestra remains clearly in the picture.
I don't expect everyone will have this problem; our ears are unique. Mine just aren't happy with Haendel.
Sarge
Ok, I downloaded an mp3 version of the Blomstedt/Haendel recording. Completely blown away by it, what I wonderful work. I listened to it, as I listen to most music, on an ipod with headphones, and didn't have any problem with the balance of the soloist and orchestra. Just loved it, as various people have said it's an hour of ceaselessly changing and endlessly fascinating variations on the basic material that don't get boring for a moment, and although grim, are not bleak. And then towards the end, though there are hints earlier, the music turns lyrical and beatific. A great violin concerto, one of the greatest, and amazing performance. I guess the recording was done in takes and I don't know if it has ever been given in a live performance, by Haendel or anyone else, but if it has been it would be one of the great feats of human endurance on the part of the soloist! Like running an ultra marathon. There are so few breaks in the solo part.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2012, 07:24:43 PM
Pulled out Symphonies 2 (CPO) and 3 (BIS)...
I've always liked No.3; it's structured in four movements, but has the blackest outlook, especially the last movement (which I didn't get to). No.2 is just such a stretch at one movement, and the cd player spit it out, so I didn't get too far; but this one I may have to try to give a little more due to one day.
Still haven't heard the 4th, but in a tantalizing mini clip on YT. Does anyone have a lucid thought on the 4th? (have I asked this before?)
My music-loving friend has a very high opinion of Symphony No 4. I will listen to it.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2012, 02:32:55 AM
My music-loving friend has a very high opinion of Symphony No 4. I will listen to it.
Thanks. WHAT is up with BIS??? ??? They're a Swedish company and they have by no means even cracked the Cycle! >:D
The violin concerto is indeed manly stuff. Curious that it's been recorded only by women. :)
I concur with Jeffrey, it's the most sheerly beautiful and beatific violin concerto of its century (along with the Berg, to which it resembles in more than one way).
Sarge, I don't think the recording is to blame for the violin's prominence. Miss Haendel sounds exactly like that in the concert hall. I've heard her a few times in both solo and concertante works, from the back of the hall or from about 30 feet distance. She is the Annie Fischer of female violinists. Her intensity switch is always on, and even the relaxed, lyrical moments have that relentless quality that can surprise, even grate the ear.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 21, 2012, 06:31:04 PM
Ok, I downloaded an mp3 version of the Blomstedt/Haendel recording. Completely blown away by it, what I wonderful work. I listened to it, as I listen to most music, on an ipod with headphones, and didn't have any problem with the balance of the soloist and orchestra. Just loved it, as various people have said it's an hour of ceaselessly changing and endlessly fascinating variations on the basic material that don't get boring for a moment, and although grim, are not bleak. And then towards the end, though there are hints earlier, the music turns lyrical and beatific. A great violin concerto, one of the greatest, and amazing performance. I guess the recording was done in takes and I don't know if it has ever been given in a live performance, by Haendel or anyone else, but if it has been it would be one of the great feats of human endurance on the part of the soloist! Like running an ultra marathon. There are so few breaks in the solo part.
Excellent post, bravo ! For those interested there are lengthy and insightful reviews on Gramophone (1981) and Classicalnet.
The concerto was premiered in Stockholm by Haendel and Blomstedt in January 1981 and recorded imediately afterwards. It was the last time Pettersson - who of course attended the premiere - heard one of his works played in public. He died a few months later. The concerto was dedicated to Miss Haendel.
Quote from: André on July 22, 2012, 08:02:37 AM
Excellent post, bravo ! For those interested there are lengthy and insightful reviews on Gramophone (1981) and Classicalnet.
The concerto was premiered in Stockholm by Haendel and Blomstedt in January 1981 and recorded imediately afterwards. It was the last time Pettersson - who of course attended the premiere - heard one of his works played in public. He died a few months later. The concerto was dedicated to Miss Haendel.
Am so glad that Pettersson was there to hear it
Andre. :)
For those interested there is a very interesting blog at www.allanpettersson100blogspot.com .
The blogger discusses all the works and their recordings. He does not disguise the fact that some works still elude his sensibilities. A trained musician, his musical descriptions often mystify me. I wish he would give timing references instead of writing '6 after rehearsal 42'. Useless without a score - assuming you find one and can read music in the first place, which is not my case :-\. Anyhow, he is very perceptive and writes superbly.
Tonight I listened to symphonies 10, 3, and the viola concerto. Yesterday it was the 9th symphony.
Biefly: the 10th is a whopping musical nightmare à la Edvard Munch. I still hear music, but I think I now understand Pettersson' physical agony better. It is a painful experience: as much for the listener as it must be to the orchestral players. I loved it. Thankfully it's very short (25 minutes). What a work!
The viola concerto: not to sure what to think. That was my first listening to the work ever. Additional hearings are in order. I have another version of it, so that'll be an incentive.
The 3rd symphony. It's ending as I write. Although it's banded (4 sections lasting 38 minutes) it's actually a one movement work. Pettersson writes music in a kind of stream of consciousness. I recently read Faulkner's Intruder in the Dust and recall that style from Sartoris, As I Lay Dying, The Sound and the Fury and a few other works of Faulkner's. I have always been totally engrossed by the style. Maybe that's why I like Pettersson's music so much. You can't figure the destination nor the itinerary, so you can only let yourself be taken along for the ride and abandon rational musical thinking.
The 9th is one of Pettersson's best works IMO. I find it easily approachable inasmuch as I let go of my usual way of listening. Being a very analytic type of listener, Pettersson challenges me in that analytic faculties are downright useless when listening to his music. It really requires an act of faith. The 9th is IMO the most mahlerian work of Pettersson's I've heard. It's full of distorted band marches, grotesquely repeated over and over as if trapped in a dream that keeps taking you back to its beginning. This is very doloroso stuff. No respite, no consolation, no succour. Only the very end offers some kind of brief solace. This is one of Pettersson's works I keep returning to (along with 6-8 and the Mesto for strings). A great, intensely human work.
I'm still mystified by some works though (Vox Humana, the 2-violins sonatas)
Quote from: André on July 25, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
The 9th is one of Pettersson's best works IMO. I find it easily approachable inasmuch as I let go of my usual way of listening. Being a very analytic type of listener, Pettersson challenges me in that analytic faculties are downright useless when listening to his music. It really requires an act of faith. The 9th is IMO the most mahlerian work of Pettersson's I've heard. It's full of distorted band marches, grotesquely repeated over and over as if trapped in a dream that keeps taking you back to its beginning. This is very doloroso stuff. No respite, no consolation, no succour. Only the very end offers some kind of brief solace. This is one of Pettersson's works I keep returning to (along with 6-8 and the Mesto for strings). A great, intensely human work.
I agree. I takes quite some patience to listen to it (but hey; people here listen to Mahler), but it is not difficult to get into if you can handle that. And the stream of consciousness metaphor you mention is pretty good I think, and perhaps especially for this work. But I still have quite some works of Pettersson I still haven't listened to.
Quote from: André on July 25, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
For those interested there is a very interesting blog at www.allanpettersson100blogspot.com .
The blogger discusses all the works and their recordings. He does not disguise the fact that some works still elude his sensibilities. A trained musician, his musical descriptions often mystify me. I wish he would give timing references instead of writing '6 after rehearsal 42'. Useless without a score - assuming you find one and can read music in the first place, which is not my case :-\. Anyhow, he is very perceptive and writes superbly.
Tonight I listened to symphonies 10, 3, and the viola concerto. Yesterday it was the 9th symphony.
Biefly: the 10th is a whopping musical nightmare à la Edvard Munch. I still hear music, but I think I now understand Pettersson' physical agony better. It is a painful experience: as much for the listener as it must be to the orchestral players. I loved it. Thankfully it's very short (25 minutes). What a work!
The viola concerto: not to sure what to think. That was my first listening to the work ever. Additional hearings are in order. I have another version of it, so that'll be an incentive.
The 3rd symphony. It's ending as I write. Although it's banded (4 sections lasting 38 minutes) it's actually a one movement work. Pettersson writes music in a kind of stream of consciousness. I recently read Faulkner's Intruder in the Dust and recall that style from Sartoris, As I Lay Dying, The Sound and the Fury and a few other works of Faulkner's. I have always been totally engrossed by the style. Maybe that's why I like Pettersson's music so much. You can't figure the destination nor the itinerary, so you can only let yourself be taken along for the ride and abandon rational musical thinking.
The 9th is one of Pettersson's best works IMO. I find it easily approachable inasmuch as I let go of my usual way of listening. Being a very analytic type of listener, Pettersson challenges me in that analytic faculties are downright useless when listening to his music. It really requires an act of faith. The 9th is IMO the most mahlerian work of Pettersson's I've heard. It's full of distorted band marches, grotesquely repeated over and over as if trapped in a dream that keeps taking you back to its beginning. This is very doloroso stuff. No respite, no consolation, no succour. Only the very end offers some kind of brief solace. This is one of Pettersson's works I keep returning to (along with 6-8 and the Mesto for strings). A great, intensely human work.
I'm still mystified by some works though (Vox Humana, the 2-violins sonatas)
I could probably sustain on Symphonies 10-11, especially 11. I don't have the time for the longer ones anymore. I've almost considered selling off, but, I paid good money! I feel like I've traded AP for Schnittke in this arena (at least Schnittke has banded movements (boy am I lazy!)). Still, I can only listen to either of them on heavy weather day,... just doesn't work when it's 100 degrees out.
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/B/I/BISSACD1980.jpg)
A new Pettersson 6!
Quote from: The new erato on August 25, 2012, 03:02:58 AM
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/B/I/BISSACD1980.jpg)
A new Pettersson 6!
:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:o :o :o
A?... new?... Pettersson?... 6th?...
hmm,... that last transmission is going to take a while to sink in...
I could have sworn I heard you say, A new Pettersson 6th, but,... haha, we all KNOW that good news doesn't happen in the Pettersson Thread...
Now?,... what was it you said?
Quote from: The new erato on August 25, 2012, 03:02:58 AM
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/B/I/BISSACD1980.jpg)
A new Pettersson 6!
That's great :) I do also wish that Sony would release Okko Kamu's fine old LP on CD 'The long struggle towards the sunrise...' Such a great work.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2012, 11:31:33 AM
That's great :) I do also wish that Sony would release Okko Kamu's fine old LP on CD 'The long struggle towards the sunrise...' Such a great work.
Maybe this new one will eclipse? I'm all for 'originals',... until 'perfection' is achieved. Let's hope and see/hear. Maybe we can start by criticizing the CPO! :P
Quote from: snyprrr on August 25, 2012, 11:52:07 AM
Maybe this new one will eclipse? I'm all for 'originals',... until 'perfection' is achieved. Let's hope and see/hear. Maybe we can start by criticizing the CPO! :P
Hope so! Same orchestra I think.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2012, 04:02:21 AM
Hope so! Same orchestra I think.
Well, it looks like BIS has their new strategy. Shall we be expecting further issues with Lindberg and Pettersson facing each other? It looks that way. Still, I would rather have the 9th,... but, I do look forward. THAT aught to be something, eh?
Quote from: snyprrr on August 25, 2012, 11:52:07 AM
Maybe this new one will eclipse?
I'll let you know soon. It's being released this week in Germany. I should have it in hand by Wednesday, I think (pre-orders usually arrive on the day of release, or even before).
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2012, 07:41:55 AM
I'll let you know soon. It's being released this week in Germany. I should have it in hand by Wednesday, I think (pre-orders usually arrive on the day of release, or even before).
Sarge
The Sarge to the rescue.....great!
Curio: petterssonians are familiar with Mesto, the slow movement of his third Concerto for strings. A sighing 4 note motto pervades the movement throughout, a shaft of autumn light at sunset in a forest. As beautiful as could be in the context of a thick, sombre half hour long sombre elegy.
Recently I listened to the Beethoven C major Mass, op.86. Not a familiar work, even for Beethoven fans. In the last section, "Agnus Dei", a similar motif is heard a few times as an accompaniment figure. I may be wrong, but note values apart I'd swear it's the Mesto theme. Possibly half a tone up on the third note (?), but its melodic shape and role in the structure as a recurring motto struck me. Pure coincidence, or unconscious borrowing? The Beethoven snippet is a four note motif, Pettersson's taking five. But curiously they sound identical.
BTW the similarity is much more obvious in the Giulini recording of the Mass than in Colin Davis'. I will also check with The Karl Richter effort.
I'm pretty sure such occurences have happened time and again in the history of music. When I catch such similarities, the character of work A spills into that of work B - or vice versa - sometimes to surprising effect. I love it when connections between works are suggested through a brief, seemingly unrelated melodic theme or fragment of theme. Surely other listeners have noticed the similarity between the beginning of BWV 565 and the famous slow movement of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez? I never make the connection when listening to the Bach Toccata and Fugue in d minor, but always make it when hearing the concerto. Which suggests to me that the Bach stands on its feet so securely that in my psyche the motto belongs to that work. When it's the Rodrigo concerto, much as I never tire listening to it, the same three-note interval automatically brings the imperious Toccata before my eyes.
In the case at hand, the Pettersson work has the upper hand over Beethoven's. That may be by dint of sheer repetition. In Beethoven's Agnus Dei the classical structure brings the theme forward at defined intervals (ababacba), whereas the Pettersson has the theme occuring repeatedly but very freely, the writing seemingly unconcerned with any formal structure. Pettersson's mesto is an extraordinary work. The very concatenation of his musical style. To hear, understand and appreciate it is the door to all his symphonies.
Quote from: André on August 26, 2012, 07:52:09 PM
Curio: petterssonians are familiar with Mesto, the slow movement of his third Concerto for strings. A sighing 4 note motto pervades the movement throughout, a shaft of autumn light at sunset in a forest. As beautiful as could be in the context of a thick, sombre half hour long sombre elegy.
Recently I listened to the Beethoven C major Mass, op.86. Not a familiar work, even for Beethoven fans. In the last section, "Agnus Dei", a similar motif is heard a few times as an accompaniment figure. I may be wrong, but note values apart I'd swear it's the Mesto theme. Possibly half a tone up on the third note (?), but its melodic shape and role in the structure as a recurring motto struck me. Pure coincidence, or unconscious borrowing? The Beethoven snippet is a four note motif, Pettersson's taking five. But curiously they sound identical.
BTW the similarity is much more obvious in the Giulini recording of the Mass than in Colin Davis'. I will also check with The Karl Richter effort.
I'm pretty sure such occurences have happened time and again in the history of music. When I catch such similarities, the character of work A spills into that of work B - or vice versa - sometimes to surprising effect. I love it when connections between works are suggested through a brief, seemingly unrelated melodic theme or fragment of theme. Surely other listeners have noticed the similarity between the beginning of BWV 565 and the famous slow movement of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez? I never make the connection when listening to the Bach Toccata and Fugue in d minor, but always make it when hearing the concerto. Which suggests to me that the Bach stands on its feet so securely that in my psyche the motto belongs to that work. When it's the Rodrigo concerto, much as I never tire listening to it, the same three-note interval automatically brings the imperious Toccata before my eyes.
In the case at hand, the Pettersson work has the upper hand over Beethoven's. That may be by dint of sheer repetition. In Beethoven's Agnus Dei the classical structure brings the theme forward at defined intervals (ababacba), whereas the Pettersson has the theme occuring repeatedly but very freely, the writing seemingly unconcerned with any formal structure. Pettersson's mesto is an extraordinary work. The very concatenation of his musical style. To hear, understand and appreciate it is the door to all his symphonies.
I hear a lot of Pettersson in Honegger, and since I've been listening to Roussel this week, I've been hearing things there too. But, definitely, I think AGP's and Honegger's melodic home turf is the same: bitterness & beauty side by side. Can't some of AGP's melodic islands be seen in the same light as the trumpet obbligato melody at the end of Honegger's Symphony No.2? Aren't the same feelings evinced in both AGP and the slow movement to Honegger's Concerto de Camera?
Quote from: The new erato on August 26, 2012, 07:44:18 AM
The Sarge to the rescue.....great!
Recevied an email form Amazon today. They are now saying they don't have the new Pettersson 6th and can't predict when it'll be available >:( Checked Amazon France and UK and they don't have it either. Trying to decide now whether to cancel the order and try an Amazon seller; several claim to have it.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2012, 08:36:28 AM
Recevied an email form Amazon today. They are now saying they don't have the new Pettersson 6th and can't predict when it'll be available >:( Checked Amazon France and UK and they don't have it either. Trying to decide now whether to cancel the order and try an Amazon seller; several claim to have it.
Sarge
FYI it should be released in the US on the fourth Tuesday in September. But that doesn't mean that amazon will have it then. They seem to have a hard time stocking BIS. Qualiton is the US distributor and I'm sure would be glad to sell it at the full suggested manufacturers retail price. Hopefully you'll be able to find it in Europe sooner.
Dan
http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html (http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html)
Flac or MP3.
I see that they also have a recording of symphonies 1 and 2. I though the first symphony had never been published? And I wonder how this new second compares to the old Swedish Discofil disc I came to know the work through ?
Quote from: snyprrr on August 27, 2012, 06:50:16 AM
I hear a lot of Pettersson in Honegger, and since I've been listening to Roussel this week, I've been hearing things there too. But, definitely, I think AGP's and Honegger's melodic home turf is the same: bitterness & beauty side by side. Can't some of AGP's melodic islands be seen in the same light as the trumpet obbligato melody at the end of Honegger's Symphony No.2? Aren't the same feelings evinced in both AGP and the slow movement to Honegger's Concerto de Camera?
Good question. The Honegger second's first movement definitely inhabits a sound world not that far removed from Pettersson's. To my ears the trumpet obbligato in the coda has a feeling of hard won victory, something close to an optimistic ending coming after twenty minutes of turmoil and anguish. With Petersson these 'melodic islands' at best evince a feeling of succour, of melancholic consolation. I guess Honegger, for all his abrasiveness and dead-seriousness, had at least experienced a modicum of peace and hapiness in his life. Pettersson is a composer where 95% of the writing evinces negative feelings and emotions. I see a kinship with that bleakest of Bergman's films,
Winter Lights.
As Sef mentioned, it's available on eClassical (oh I can't resist them :)) even as a 96 kHz FLAC file. I bought it - I listened to it only on my computer yet, but soon on my stereo. I enjoyed it but cannot tell in detail -yet. I think tempo is pretty much like on the cpo/Trojahn release (I love Trojahn most and honestly, there's no need for another Pettersson 6, I thought :D) There are differences to the Trojahn interpretation, but I need further listens.
Quote from: André on August 31, 2012, 03:38:01 PM
Good question. The Honegger second's first movement definitely inhabits a sound world not that far removed from Pettersson's. To my ears the trumpet obbligato in the coda has a feeling of hard won victory, something close to an optimistic ending coming after twenty minutes of turmoil and anguish. With Petersson these 'melodic islands' at best evince a feeling of succour, of melancholic consolation. I guess Honegger, for all his abrasiveness and dead-seriousness, had at least experienced a modicum of peace and hapiness in his life. Pettersson is a composer where 95% of the writing evinces negative feelings and emotions. I see a kinship with that bleakest of Bergman's films, Winter Lights.
Bergman & Pettersson,... ahhh, now there's a pair, haha!! Sale on razorblades...
Quote from: snyprrr on September 01, 2012, 07:11:49 AM
Bergman & Pettersson,... ahhh, now there's a pair, haha!! Sale on razorblades...
You forgot Strindberg; he makes those other two look like happy cats.
Quote from: The new erato on September 01, 2012, 07:15:19 AM
You forgot Strindberg; he makes those other two look like happy cats.
Ohhh,... I just don't have the energy today, haha,... the invocation has set up a potential tempest of ranting in my brain,... OH, how I want to vent and scream and kick,...
I have a picture of myself as a very young boy, with that typical "Oh! Such a Serious Little Man' look on my face. Aye! Ack! Oi! Vey! Ya!,... uff da!! :-\
(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h6031/4696031-origpic-642f9c.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg) (http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html)
Listened to this again. Is it maybe en par with the CPO release? I give it further listens. But two problems (for me): a) the snare drum accompaning the looong coda (somewhere at 37:00) sounds kind of veery muffled. As if it was residing far away in some corner of the room. Very different to how it was on the CPO CD.
Before 37:00 there are two louder outbreaks, especially the first one (listen to 33:00 ff.) sounds as if they used heavy dynamics compression. But I'm not sure, because in the second appearance at 36:30 the volume does not drop down...
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 01, 2012, 09:53:22 AM
Listened to this again. Is it maybe en par with the CPO release? I give it further listens. But two problems (for me): a) the snare drum accompaning the looong coda (somewhere at 37:00) sounds kind of veery muffled. As if it was residing far away in some corner of the room. Very different to how it was on the CPO CD.
Before 37:00 there are two louder outbreaks, especially the first one (listen to 33:00 ff.) sounds as if they used heavy dynamics compression. But I'm not sure, because in the second appearance at 36:30 the volume does not drop down...
Thanks for the comments. I may soon have a chance to listen myself. Received mail from Amazon today saying I should have the CD on the 7th.
Sarge
Quote from: André on August 31, 2012, 03:24:58 PM
I see that they also have a recording of symphonies 1 and 2. I though the first symphony had never been published? And I wonder how this new second compares to the old Swedish Discofil disc I came to know the work through ?
I just ordered that and it ought to be along in a few days. The review that I've seen tells us that the conductor, Christian Lindberg, put together a performing version of whatever cohesive sketches remained of the First, and one review says it sounds like "a lost half-hour of the Second." The disc also comes with a DVD that explains and discusses the process of making this edition, and I sincerely hope it's Area I format and in English (or with subtitles), because any other area, and I can't play it; and my foreign languages (except Spanish which is a very unlikely possibility) are hopeless.
My only Second is the CPO. The earlier Discofil mentioned I knew once existed, but I've never even seen it for sale. And probably couldn't afford it if I did see it.
I've hung unto that Swedish Discofil disc ever since I bought it almost 20 years ago. I didn't think then that there would be integral sets from CPO and BIS. And now a third one !
Stig Westerberg is the excellent conductor, and the orchestra plays well, but the sound is on the rough side (1966 vintage). Let us know what Linderg makes of it !
Quote from: Uncle Connie on September 03, 2012, 03:24:44 PM
The earlier Discofil mentioned I knew once existed, but I've never even seen it for sale. And probably couldn't afford it if I did see it.
I just saw it on amazon, used for $8.00.
Dan
Quote from: hemmesjo on September 04, 2012, 04:42:50 AM
I just saw it on amazon, used for $8.00.
Dan
Well, that does it, I'm obviously going blind. I've been skipping over that picture in the Amazon listings thinking it was something else. Anyway, thank you very much, and there is no $8. copy any longer.
Quote from: André on September 03, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
I've hung unto that Swedish Discofil disc ever since I bought it almost 20 years ago. I didn't think then that there would be integral sets from CPO and BIS. And now a third one !
Stig Westerberg is the excellent conductor, and the orchestra plays well, but the sound is on the rough side (1966 vintage). Let us know what Linderg makes of it !
"And now a third one?" No, I think it will still be just two cycles. Apparently BIS is intending to have Christian Lindberg record the symphonies that Segerstam did NOT do already, and then integrate the two partial series as if it were one. Considering that all of Segerstam's are still for sale (BIS is not known to discontinue much of anything in its catalogue), this makes some economic sense at least - why compete against yourself?
I anticipate the new 1/2 disc arriving today or tomorrow. A report will follow soon.
Quote from: Uncle Connie on September 04, 2012, 05:31:05 AM
"And now a third one?" No, I think it will still be just two cycles. Apparently BIS is intending to have Christian Lindberg record the symphonies that Segerstam did NOT do already, and then integrate the two partial series as if it were one.
That contradicts the rumour I heard that after Lindberg has conducted what Segerstam hasn't, he'll keep going and eventually have a cycle of his own.
QuoteConsidering that all of Segerstam's are still for sale (BIS is not known to discontinue much of anything in its catalogue), this makes some economic sense at least - why compete against yourself?
BIS has duplicated some repertoire, notably three Sibelius cycles.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 04, 2012, 09:20:44 AM
That contradicts the rumour I heard that after Lindberg has conducted what Segerstam hasn't, he'll keep going and eventually have a cycle of his own.
Then I sincerely hope your rumor is correct and mine is wrong, because the more we have of Pettersson to compare, the more useful, I'd say. And your rumor also takes care of the little matter of what to do about the Moshe Atzmon 5th....
Quote
BIS has duplicated some repertoire, notably three Sibelius cycles.
Yes indeed, but you must admit the retail market for major Sibelius must be several orders of magnitude greater than that for Pettersson. With Sibelius there really is the possibility of multiple cycles equaling multiple profit statements.
Quote from: Uncle Connie on September 04, 2012, 05:31:05 AM
I anticipate the new 1/2 disc arriving today or tomorrow. A report will follow soon.
Did you pay 1/2 price for it? ;D
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 01, 2012, 09:53:22 AM
(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h6031/4696031-origpic-642f9c.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg) (http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html)
Finally--Pettersson on SACD. I have a multi-channel system, so I'm looking forward to putting through its paces with this disc.
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but to my mind the finest reading of Pettersson's 6th (surpassing Kamu and the CPO in my judgement, - good as both of those are in many respects) is the premiere performance by Stig Westerberg (probably still available for DL on the UC forum). Can't say just what makes it so (or don't want to work that hard at the moment), - but I repeatedly recognize its greater impact on me than the others. In my own hierarchy, I place it at the pinnacle of "great" AP Symphony recordings together with Dorati's 7th & Comissiona's 8th. For everyone who loves the piece, it shouldn't be missed.
Quote from: André on September 04, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
Did you pay 1/2 price for it? ;D
You know, by purest coincidence that's almost exactly what I paid. :D Amazon lists their retail price at US $24.02, and I paid $12.73. I do so love these private-party discounters - I think I probably got a copy that someone bought and hated. ("Played once," it said.) Their loss, my gain. :P
On another point, more useful to others: The DVD that comes with the CD of the First & Second is Region 0 (universal), which is really all they could do considering how many countries sell BIS discs; and the language is Swedish but with subtitles in English, German and French. I haven't played it yet; that report will have to follow.
Another item: The matter of whether Christian Lindberg will do a complete series, or just complete what Segerstam began. The following doesn't quite prove anything, but I think it's suggestive: In the booklet to the 1&2 disc is this statement: "Future recording plans [for Lindberg] with BIS include the completion of the label's series of the symphonies by Allan Pettersson with the Norrköping Symphony Orchestra...." To me, the clear implication is that BIS is defining the series as being by the
orchestra and the
label, not specifically by a single given conductor. Perhaps a specific enquiry to BIS via their e-mail address in the booklet is warranted. I'll let you know if/when they answer.
I pulled out Trojahn's 6th for the car, which would be a broken up hour. Well,... aye, I feel like I am so beyond this music,... it's so,... so... I feel like playing the 'littlest violin' for AGP. :'( Sure, I CAN enjoy it, though the weather was waaay too nice, but, this is AGP just begging us to hear him whine for an hour. I just could barely stand it today. Yes, it's 'beautiful',... he's just taking it all too seriously,... in that annoying Swede way (and I should know!). I really hope the new BIS has tracking!! ::)
It's funeral music, pure and simple. Only play during a gusty thunderstorm.
I can't imagine WHAT THE BIBLE PERfORMANCE OF THE 6TH (whoops) must be. I hear nothing really wrong with Trojahn, though I can sense a greater attention to detail might be in order. Perhaps the snare drum could be tighter? I don't know what people must be drooling over.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 06, 2012, 08:19:53 PM
I pulled out Trojahn's 6th for the car....I really hope the new BIS has tracking!! ::)
It doesn't. Like the cpo version, it only has one track >:( There's not much difference in timing either: cpo 60:38 BIS 59:50
Quote from: snyprrr on September 06, 2012, 08:19:53 PM
Sure, I CAN enjoy it, though the weather was waaay too nice,
Although it's a beautiful sunny day I'm listening to it now (with the shutters closed and the lights out :D )
Sarge
Listened to the Lindberg and Trojahn Sixths this afternoon. Lindberg is not the revelation I was hoping for and, in fact, I slightly prefer Trojahn. He's a little more dramatic, his percussion a little punchier, compared to the slightly subdued Lindberg. One major difference (and I use "major" relatively here since there really isn't a huge difference between the two performances) is the final six minutes or so that start with a three note descending figure (at 54:47 Trojan; 54:00 Lindberg). Trojan is marginally slower (at least it feels slower) and even a little grim sounding compared to the more consoling Lindberg. If you're looking for the happier ending, Lindberg's your man. But we are talking Pettersson. Happiness is relative in his world ;)
With only one track per disc, direct comparisons are really difficult. Perhaps with more familiarity with this new version I'll have a clearer idea of the differences between the two recordings.
I don't have a surround system. I listened to the CD layer.
Sarge
Christian Lindberg wrote this earlier today on the Wall of the Pettersson Group on Facebook: Just when we thought sales had calmed down the Pettersson 6 continued to climb, now to a sensational 31st place on the classical download list!! The goal of top 25 is so close that BIS records have decided to prolong the special deal over the weekend. So, take the last chance to make history in classical music and make Allan Pettersson a rockstar by downloading his 6th symphony!
http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html (http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html)
I listened to Lindberg's recording of the Sixth, but I'll judge it after I have listened to the two other performances I have (Kamu and Trojahn)... Later.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2012, 01:47:38 PM
Christian Lindberg wrote this earlier today on the Wall of the Pettersson Group on Facebook: Just when we thought sales had calmed down the Pettersson 6 continued to climb, now to a sensational 31st place on the classical download list!! The goal of top 25 is so close that BIS records have decided to prolong the special deal over the weekend. So, take the last chance to make history in classical music and make Allan Pettersson a rockstar by downloading his 6th symphony!
http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html (http://www.eclassical.com/composers/pettersson-allan/pettersson-symphony-no6.html)
I listened to Lindberg's recording of the Sixth, but I'll judge it after I have listened to the two other performances I have (Kamu and Trojahn)... Later.
Lindberg's a nerd, but he's right. If Pettersson breaks through, he might get MSM.
Sarge's 'scathing' (I'm kidding ::)!) review has shattered my dreams. If Trojahn's percussion is better, and I was seeking better than Trojahn :'(,... ah well, what are we looking at, Kamu and the mysterious Westerberg that J mentioned?
Don't get me wrong, Trojahn's reading has some juicy brass, but, I would have expected BIS's recording to be exemplary and beyond reproach. The CPO recording IS pretty good, but it does make me yearn for the 'fantasy' sound that one should expect from BIS.
I can't even bear the slightest hint of a disappointment here; it would be like Obama's speech last night. :'(
Earlier in this thread there were links to download Comissiona's version of the 8th that is unavailable - does anybody want to reupload this? The links are now dead. I'd love to hear this recording as I'm sure a few others would.
When I have the time, I'll re-upload...
Hi again. A few days ago I said I'd message BIS and ask if they were planning a full series with Christian Lindberg, or just the ones that Leif Segerstam (and Moshe Atzmon???) did NOT do. I now have a very gracious reply which settles absolutely nothing:
===
Dear Mr. von Metzke,
Thank you for your e-mail, and your kind words about our Pettersson recordings! Actually, we haven't decided what to do yet. To begin with, we will record the symphonies which we haven't recorded yet to complete the cycle. Then we'll see if we will record the symphonies previously recorded.
In any case, you have many future Pettersson-records to look forward to!
With best wishes,
Elin Winberg
===
This actually is the ideal answer as far as I'm concerned. (It also explains why more than one rumor has developed! ;D) At the very least we get Maestro Lindberg doing the ones not yet on BIS at all; and after that (presumably based on sales, critical opinion, whether the Segerstams are still selling then, Christian Lindberg's career situation at that point, etc.) we may very well get even more. And meanwhile we get to guess, and hope, and that makes it all the more useful for stirring interest in Pettersson. (I don't think there's any chance they'll make him a "rock star," however. At best, maybe a "composer of greater interest than at present.")
And thanks to Ms. Winberg for the quick and very pleasant remarks.
I just can't get past Pettersson's 8th. I mean this composer is certainly one-dimensional. I think highly of his Symphonies Nos. 6-8 but nothing before these and after these have made much of an impression on me. I think he was a composer that was so caught up in his own mind that he failed to understand that music isn't something that should be one-dimensional. There are other moods besides those that inhabit depression. I mean Pettersson makes Shostakovich look like a Disney film! Pettersson's music is the epitome of the term 'buzzkill.'
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:39:04 PM
I just can't get past Pettersson's 8th.
Perhaps try swerving around it, then.
Hi , MI. Interesting opinion, and one quite commonly voiced about Pettersson. Re: the comparison with Shostakovich: if all you knew of him were the 14th symphony and the 15th quartet, you'd be quite justified to wonder how he got so far and didn't commit suicide at an early age. But in reality, you probably get the essence of Shostakovich in these two works.
When it comes to Pettersson, it's as if he had only created variations on the theme of suffering and anguish. It seems that these themes were so central to his life and ethos that he could ONLY compose music in a dolorous and agonising idiom. As a matter of fact, the man cried in pain for much of his life. That he could compose music that makes one hear the pain and the suffering is all the more remarkable.
Pettersson probably touched the nether reaches of the human soul. Every person was/is/will be witness to such psychological, physical, emotional distress. If you have not been witness to these mental or physical states, then it's only through total empathy that you can live it 'by proxy'. I guess that's why Pettersson strikes a chord with many music lovers. Think of the lowest, biggest string on a harp or piano. Its sound is deep, muscular, tummy-wobbling. Pettersson keeps strumming it in his music. The effect is almost physical.
Quote from: André on September 12, 2012, 07:30:38 PM
Hi , MI. Interesting opinion, and one quite commonly voiced about Pettersson. Re: the comparison with Shostakovich: if all you knew of him were the 14th symphony and the 15th quartet, you'd be quite justified to wonder how he got so far and didn't commit suicide at an early age. But in reality, you probably get the essence of Shostakovich in these two works.
When it comes to Pettersson, it's as if he had only created variations on the theme of suffering and anguish. It seems that these themes were so central to his life and ethos that he could ONLY compose music in a dolorous and agonising idiom. As a matter of fact, the man cried in pain for much of his life. That he could compose music that makes one hear the pain and the suffering is all the more remarkable.
Pettersson probably touched the nether reaches of the human soul. Every person was/is/will be witness to such psychological, physical, emotional distress. If you have not been witness to these mental or physical states, then it's only through total empathy that you can live it 'by proxy'. I guess that's why Pettersson strikes a chord with many music lovers. Think of the lowest, biggest string on a harp or piano. Its sound is deep, muscular, tummy-wobbling. Pettersson keeps strumming it in his music. The effect is almost physical.
Shostakovich was a much more interesting and emotionally complicated composer IMHO. His music is truly multi-faceted. He wrote in large variety of styles and his music goes through a myriad of emotions and moods. Pettersson feels like somebody who bitches and moans all the time. His music represents a musical dead-end to me. He stays in one frame of mind and doesn't stray from this for 50-60 minutes. I mean it just goes on and on and on with no end in sight. Only in his best symphonies (Nos. 6-8) is there any sign of life that a human being wrote this music. Pettersson seemed like he just didn't give a damn about anything and his music reflects this I think.
Maybe these posts will bring Sara (Lethe) back into the picture...one can only hope. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:39:04 PM
I just can't get past Pettersson's 8th. I mean this composer is certainly one-dimensional. I think highly of his Symphonies Nos. 6-8 but nothing before these and after these have made much of an impression on me. I think he was a composer that was so caught up in his own mind that he failed to understand that music isn't something that should be one-dimensional. There are other moods besides those that inhabit depression. I mean Pettersson makes Shostakovich look like a Disney film! Pettersson's music is the epitome of the term 'buzzkill.'
We'd kidnap you, Alex the Droog style, and tie you up and spike you and put on the 13th!! :o Trrripppppy!! :-*
Try Pettersson the next time there's a horrible storm. Maybe that's what you're missing. Pettersson makes great background music to decent weather: maybe you've been listening on sunny days?
What about the 3rd?
Quote from: snyprrr on September 12, 2012, 10:15:07 PM
We'd kidnap you, Alex the Droog style, and tie you up and spike you and put on the 13th!! :o Trrripppppy!! :-*
Try Pettersson the next time there's a horrible storm. Maybe that's what you're missing. Pettersson makes great background music to decent weather: maybe you've been listening on sunny days?
What about the 3rd?
:P
Maybe I need to watch a film like
Hellraiser to enjoy Pettersson more? Pettersson reminds me of Pinhead whose whole purpose was to make people suffer. I can see those chains ripping my flesh apart while Pettersson...err...Pinhead laughs loudly in the background.
I think that Lindberg's recording of Symphony No 6 (Norrkoping SO) on BIS is exceptionally good - certainly the best IMHO since Kamu's long deleted LP with the same orchestra on CBS/Sony. The recording is much the best I have heard and the performance has a greater sense of rhythmic intensity than any other I have heard (the Kamu and CPO versions). This Symphony contains (along with the unbearably moving last part of the Violin Concerto No 2) one of my all time great moments in music - from about 52 minutes in, when an ostinato hymn like ascending episode ('the long struggle towards the sunrise' according to my Kamu LP) features against Nielsen's 5th like interruptions from the side drum - absolutely wonderful and deeply moving, especially in view of what we know about Pettersson's difficult life. It certainly belies the old myth about Pettersson's music reflecting 'rampant self-pity' (Robert Layton). Nothing, I think could be further from the truth - here was someone who, against all the odds, and against the prevailing fashions in music, was able to assert his inner vision of truth. That's how I see it anyway. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:39:04 PM
I just can't get past Pettersson's 8th. I mean this composer is certainly one-dimensional. I think highly of his Symphonies Nos. 6-8 but nothing before these and after these have made much of an impression on me. I think he was a composer that was so caught up in his own mind that he failed to understand that music isn't something that should be one-dimensional. There are other moods besides those that inhabit depression.
I think that's only a problem only if you have no other way to approach a work than expecting some kind of emotional drama. Granted, I myself finally cracked Pettersson's music during a particularly bad time in my life, but nowadays when I listen to his music I don't think of some "mood", but rather I simply admire the construction of these works: the memorable orchestration, the elaboration of a wide variety of material out of fairly simple motifs, and the interesting take on the single-moment form. For me, Pettersson is a step forward in the Nordic tradition, and there's a lot that appeals to someone who appreciates abstract modernism.
For what it's worth, my favourite symphonies are the 10th and 11th. Very tightly constructed with a great deal of momentum. 6-8 are also nice but feel rather sprawling.
But as far as a one-dimensional atmosphere, did anyone who saw the documentary on the BIS Symphonies Nos. 1&2 DVD laugh, when the female musicologist said "There's pain in his work, but there's also joy"? There's no joy.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 16, 2012, 06:17:22 AM
I think that Lindberg's recording of Symphony No 6 (Norrkoping SO) on BIS is exceptionally good - certainly the best IMHO since Kamu's long deleted LP with the same orchestra on CBS/Sony. The recording is much the best I have heard and the performance has a greater sense of rhythmic intensity than any other I have heard (the Kamu and CPO versions). This Symphony contains (along with the unbearably moving last part of the Violin Concerto No 2) one of my all time great moments in music - from about 52 minutes in, when an ostinato hymn like ascending episode ('the long struggle towards the sunrise' according to my Kamu LP) features against Nielsen's 5th like interruptions from the side drum - absolutely wonderful and deeply moving, especially in view of what we know about Pettersson's difficult life. It certainly belies the old myth about Pettersson's music reflecting 'rampant self-pity' (Robert Layton). Nothing, I think could be further from the truth - here was someone who, against all the odds, and against the prevailing fashions in music, was able to assert his inner vision of truth. That's how I see it anyway. :)
Thank you mr Wise Man. So do I. The release in the UK according to mdt, have been postponed until 1st Oct, so I'm still waiting for mine.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 16, 2012, 06:17:22 AM
I think that Lindberg's recording of Symphony No 6 (Norrkoping SO) on BIS is exceptionally good - certainly the best IMHO since Kamu's long deleted LP with the same orchestra on CBS/Sony. The recording is much the best I have heard and the performance has a greater sense of rhythmic intensity than any other I have heard (the Kamu and CPO versions). This Symphony contains (along with the unbearably moving last part of the Violin Concerto No 2) one of my all time great moments in music - from about 52 minutes in, when an ostinato hymn like ascending episode ('the long struggle towards the sunrise' according to my Kamu LP) features against Nielsen's 5th like interruptions from the side drum - absolutely wonderful and deeply moving, especially in view of what we know about Pettersson's difficult life. It certainly belies the old myth about Pettersson's music reflecting 'rampant self-pity' (Robert Layton). Nothing, I think could be further from the truth - here was someone who, against all the odds, and against the prevailing fashions in music, was able to assert his inner vision of truth. That's how I see it anyway. :)
As usual Jeffrey you have put it superbly :-*. Just right. Nothing less, nothing more.
In a sense, Pettersson was supremely lucky. IMHO his music reigns by virtue of the unique conjunction of attributes derived from his dates, culture, musical education, geographic latitude and geo-political situation. By the time he came to write his symphonies, Europe had freed itself from tyranny, only to be under the threat of another one. Science had advanced the prospects of a 'better society' only to be under the threat of nuclear annihilation. Science had discovered antibiotics and defeated the plague, TB, syphilis, but failed to cure common cold and the rheumatic arthritis that ruined Pettersson's life. Culturally, the northern european countries had produced a unique stream of art that viewed anxiety, pessimism and culpability as the foundation of their ethos. In music, tonality was giving way to atonality and a bevy of satellite techniques that all aimed at destroying the very foundation of music that had held sway since Palestrina. Pettersson was not in a position - or mood - to interact, adapt or react to the 'new' tenets of his art.
There are not many ways to put it. As a composer (artist) Pettersson was bred, taught, and composed music in an idiom cornered. He had but two choices: evolve, modernise and internationalise his idiom, or retreat toward his roots and trace his way forward from there. I'm not a musicologist and cannot pretend I know how Pettersson's musical style came to be. But judging from the outside I think he went for the second way. That may explain why he never found much sympathy in the modernist cycles.
'Trace his way forward from there' is another way to say that this artist's path has not really been figured out. Pettersson is still an enigma. We hear and recognise folk roots. We hear and recognise modernist harmonies. We hear and recognise a musical language that prefers not to resolve its conflicts. Maybe that's what Robert Layton unwittingly termed 'rampant self-pity'? A musical language that traced its roots backwards, chose not to evolve forward (Darmstadt-style) and instead retreated inward, where conflict resolution is but impossible: every gesture goes through rings and rounds of byways and dead-ends, inward spiral-like.
Pettersson's music is like going through a complex, 'Persona' or 'Steppenwolf' dream/nightmare/hallucination experience. Everything surprises, nothing has been experienced before, but it does belongs to one's inner world. It's impossible to find something logical in the way it unfurls, but it's just as impossible to pretend it's alien to who you really are. Unless you choose to close the gates to your inner self. Pettersson's music is one of those rare instances where the emotional, aesthetic reaction has to find an original resolution rather than through empiric correlations with other artists' experiences. In that sense he is the antithesis of Bach and Brahms, who are the very summation of their respective eras.
The only other 'solar' figures I am aware of in music are Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach and Berlioz.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 16, 2012, 07:40:31 AM
For what it's worth, my favourite symphonies are the 10th and 11th. Very tightly constructed with a great deal of momentum.
Me too, especially 11.
For me, the point of Petersson's music is that it keeps on going, like a Bach fugue. It's irrelevant whether the the mood of the music is joyful or grim, the movement is the point.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 16, 2012, 07:40:31 AM
I think that's only a problem only if you have no other way to approach a work than expecting some kind of emotional drama. Granted, I myself finally cracked Pettersson's music during a particularly bad time in my life, but nowadays when I listen to his music I don't think of some "mood", but rather I simply admire the construction of these works: the memorable orchestration, the elaboration of a wide variety of material out of fairly simple motifs, and the interesting take on the single-moment form. For me, Pettersson is a step forward in the Nordic tradition, and there's a lot that appeals to someone who appreciates abstract modernism.
I've heard all the symphonies and some of them more times than I probably should have. Most of them weren't worth my time and therefore aren't worth the effort. If I don't feel something emotional from the music, then why am I listening? Music is supposed to move and touch us in ways no other artform can. I don't have anything against Pettersson himself. I think he was an intelligent person who very truthful in what he said, but I just don't particular like his form of musical expression. What his troubles were have no bearing on my judgement of his music. In the end, there's just not enough variety (rhythmically, harmonically, or melodically) in his music to keep me interested. Surely, you can't fault somebody for trying to get into his music and not enjoying it. There's so much music out there that I feel like Pettersson is just a waste of time for me.
Many thanks for some excellent contributions! Can't participate due to work, but I do read. :)
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 16, 2012, 09:44:17 PM
For me, the point of Petersson's music is that it keeps on going, like a Bach fugue some of the posters here. It's irrelevant whether the the mood of the music is joyful or grim, the movement posting is the point.
Corrected.
And yes - I'm one of them.
The stormy weather, and a car ride, prompted me to pull out the CPO 13th. Normally, the car stereo has been acting verrry naughty lately, but today I was allowed to listen to the first 34 minutes of what sounded like an Absolute Masterpiece! The whole opening had a chamber delicacy that I didn't recall, and I thought of MI the whole time, saying, What are you talking about man? The most monstrous of Pettersson Symphonies is actually the Best Mahler Symphony Ever!!
But, the thing is (given the fact that we are hyper-focused on the 'self-pitying' aspect to the actual musical notes), is that as I was listening for anything I wouldn't like, I was bombarded with this most teeming life of beautiful information. I was taken aback by the sheer abstraction of AGP's 'invention' (and, that does seem to be a good word for his 'method'). There is nothing in the first 34 minutes that really reminded me of any of the 5-9 Symphonies. In a way, No.13 is a grand elaboration of the general mood of No.11, if I may? Please just give the first couple of minutes a spin and see if you're not 'surprised' by the delicacy of the big bad old grump.
I'll say that I almost found, in the most positive way, a very Xenakian quality here. Those who are familiar with, say, Kraanerg, I ask, can you hear the almost 'similarity' of abstract, 'universal distance'? Now, granted, I didn't get to the second half of the work, and I can't possible remember what the siren song in No.13 sounds like, but, the first half of No.13 something so wonderful that I can't believe I've been raggin' on poor AGP.
I found myself just wallowing in the 'information' (AGP's term), the sounds of the different instrumental groups and solos in a whirlwind journey. There's a wonderful amount of notes, just a cascading, tumbling, ever present need to keep going at any cost.
Please don't tell me I'm the first to listen to the 13th since we've been having this current back and forth. If I am, and none of you have pulled out the 13th in a long while, let me simply recommend the opening. Clear you mind, have time ready, and be open. Or, take an hour ride in a storm like I tried. I think those of us who haven't been considering the towering achievement of AGP's 13th Symphony should prepare a listen (don't rush). Perhaps start with the Symphonic Movement as an opener.
I liked it much better than the 6th, and, it's mood is in a totally different realm than that of the Middle Period Symphonies. I'd like to know when the last time anyone listened to Nos. 14 & 15? I remember liking 14 very much, and though I don't like 15 as much as I like 10-11, it makes a very nice disc-mate to No.3 on BIS. I think I'll spin 15 here now...
MI, you uncle called and said you have to put your big boy pants on and bust open a can of Pettersson Mania!! :o Feel the Burn!!
You've at least convinced me to give the 13th an urgent spin :D. Newer GAP recordings will wait. Will certainly give it a listen or two before leaving for the sunny shores of Providenciales Island 8)
I've heard the 13th, snyprrr. Again, my reaction to this work is negative, but while I'm here I do like some parts of Violin Concerto No. 2. It reminds me of the 6th-8th in the sense that there's great light/darkness contrasts throughout the work. This gives the music much more character than most of his other works which just stay in one frame of mind and don't offer the listener any kind of relief.
Quote from: The new erato on September 16, 2012, 07:49:58 AM
Thank you mr Wise Man. So do I. The release in the UK according to mdt, have been postponed until 1st Oct, so I'm still waiting for mine.
Thank you :). My copy came from the UK via Amazon.
Quote from: André on September 16, 2012, 07:39:41 PM
As usual Jeffrey you have put it superbly :-*. Just right. Nothing less, nothing more.
In a sense, Pettersson was supremely lucky. IMHO his music reigns by virtue of the unique conjunction of attributes derived from his dates, culture, musical education, geographic latitude and geo-political situation. By the time he came to write his symphonies, Europe had freed itself from tyranny, only to be under the threat of another one. Science had advanced the prospects of a 'better society' only to be under the threat of nuclear annihilation. Science had discovered antibiotics and defeated the plague, TB, syphilis, but failed to cure common cold and the rheumatic arthritis that ruined Pettersson's life. Culturally, the northern european countries had produced a unique stream of art that viewed anxiety, pessimism and culpability as the foundation of their ethos. In music, tonality was giving way to atonality and a bevy of satellite techniques that all aimed at destroying the very foundation of music that had held sway since Palestrina. Pettersson was not in a position - or mood - to interact, adapt or react to the 'new' tenets of his art.
There are not many ways to put it. As a composer (artist) Pettersson was bred, taught, and composed music in an idiom cornered. He had but two choices: evolve, modernise and internationalise his idiom, or retreat toward his roots and trace his way forward from there. I'm not a musicologist and cannot pretend I know how Pettersson's musical style came to be. But judging from the outside I think he went for the second way. That may explain why he never found much sympathy in the modernist cycles.
'Trace his way forward from there' is another way to say that this artist's path has not really been figured out. Pettersson is still an enigma. We hear and recognise folk roots. We hear and recognise modernist harmonies. We hear and recognise a musical language that prefers not to resolve its conflicts. Maybe that's what Robert Layton unwittingly termed 'rampant self-pity'? A musical language that traced its roots backwards, chose not to evolve forward (Darmstadt-style) and instead retreated inward, where conflict resolution is but impossible: every gesture goes through rings and rounds of byways and dead-ends, inward spiral-like.
Pettersson's music is like going through a complex, 'Persona' or 'Steppenwolf' dream/nightmare/hallucination experience. Everything surprises, nothing has been experienced before, but it does belongs to one's inner world. It's impossible to find something logical in the way it unfurls, but it's just as impossible to pretend it's alien to who you really are. Unless you choose to close the gates to your inner self. Pettersson's music is one of those rare instances where the emotional, aesthetic reaction has to find an original resolution rather than through empiric correlations with other artists' experiences. In that sense he is the antithesis of Bach and Brahms, who are the very summation of their respective eras.
The only other 'solar' figures I am aware of in music are Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach and Berlioz.
What an interesting discussion.
Your penultimate paragraph 'Pettersson's music...' hits it right on the head I think. I have not read a better analysis of the appeal of Pettersson's music to those of us who respond to it. :)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 18, 2012, 06:08:30 PM
(given the fact that we are hyper-focused on the 'self-pitying' aspect to the actual musical notes)
Not I. I've always focused on the notes. Just saying.
I like
Pettersson's term. I concede that what he wrote is "sonic information" ; )
Quote from: karlhenning on September 19, 2012, 03:00:52 AM
Not I. I've always focused on the notes. Just saying.
I like Pettersson's term. I concede that what he wrote is "sonic information" ; )
But, what do you think of one saying that an actual note can be 'self pitying'? I mean, if you're playing an 'e minor' chord, and, on top of that, you are obsessively playing 'g-f#, g-f#. g-f#',... doesn't the human brain actually translate those 'abstract' notes into something 'sad'? And, in context, some listener may wonder 'who' or 'what' might this 'sadness' might be, and, lo and behold, the Composer of those notes was suffering great pain. So, is it not right to them ascribe the emotional content of those flimsy little notes, because, the emotional content really appears to be there: the Composer was sad, and wrote music that fellow humans recognized as 'sad', and the listeners deduced that the Composer was sad over...
Oh, nevermind. I KNOW that AGP is commenting on the world situation, and not necessarily only his own suffering, so, I have no horse in this race anyway. ::)
So... yes, I hear No.13 as only abstract information,... though, I must admit that AGP's penchant for 'Oriental' sounding melodies DOES have that 'looking back on that what has been destroyed' feeling. I can't get around the MOOD: information, or not, this is 'deep' stuff.
Bought the new Lindberg recording of Symphony No. 6. Anyway, I read through synprrr's comments about the later symphonies and I've decided to give them another spin. I will NOT listen the 9th again! Such a horrible work. I'm going to listen to 10-16 again in hopes of maybe getting something out of them. I'm not going to listen to all of these symphonies in one setting (obviously), but spread them out over the winter months. We'll see where this goes...
Synprrr, what is your favorite work by Pettersson?
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 12, 2012, 09:02:57 PM
Bought the new Lindberg recording of Symphony No. 6. Anyway, I read through synprrr's comments about the later symphonies and I've decided to give them another spin. I will NOT listen the 9th again! Such a horrible work. I'm going to listen to 10-16 again in hopes of maybe getting something out of them. I'm not going to listen to all of these symphonies in one setting (obviously), but spread them out over the winter months. We'll see where this goes...
Synprrr, what is your favorite work by Pettersson?
The first 3 minutes of No.8
Just make sure you listen on dark, cloudy, snowy days to maximize effect. Personally, I'd warn against trying too hard here, you may end up disliking AGP more? Start with
No.11, probably my single favorite AGP work (that's easily digestible).
Let AGP present himself to YOU, not the other way around (I don't know WHAT? that means, haha).
Quote from: snyprrr on December 13, 2012, 06:43:21 AM
Let AGP present himself to YOU, not the other way around (I don't know WHAT? that means, haha).
You should try not to hide your insights (you've got plenty of them) in wisecracks (you've got plenty of them as well).
Quote from: snyprrr on December 13, 2012, 06:43:21 AM
The first 3 minutes of No.8
Just make sure you listen on dark, cloudy, snowy days to maximize effect. Personally, I'd warn against trying too hard here, you may end up disliking AGP more? Start with No.11, probably my single favorite AGP work (that's easily digestible).
Let AGP present himself to YOU, not the other way around (I don't know WHAT? that means, haha).
I've heard the 11th several times. I do enjoy it. Lovely introduction. It's a pretty short symphony for Pettersson. I listened to the 10th last night. Didn't think much of it. It went on and on with no purpose unlike his
Symphonies Nos. 6-8 which present themselves as journeys from darkness to light or vice versa, although the 11th could be said to do this as well.
Remember I pulled out No.13 a few months back, and was really impressed with its... everything, I guess. So, I finally got the cd player fixed and hit No.14 (Commissiona (sic)). Wow, this is a 'pounder' for sure, and by pounding, I mean the bass drum! This is one hot 47min. mess! The anger is palpable, the tumult is near inexhaustible, and the contours are forever crashing into one another. This one is kind of hard to like on a sunny day; I would most certainly recommend this for Category 1: no less than 70mph winds, and property damage, for this one.
So, I followed up with about half of No.15, which continues on from 14 in like fashion. My theory is this: 13 mirrors 9, 14 mirrors 10, and 15 mirrors 11.
I was again amazed at the amount of notes cascading around in 14. HOW? could he write Symphonies of so many notes when he had the hands of Rondo Hatton? Pretty impressive.
Still, weather plays a big part in me enjoying Pettersson on-the-road. Too still today.
I haven't heard No.16, the massive Saxophone Symphony, in decades. I might have to find...
Quote from: snyprrr on January 13, 2013, 09:10:42 AM
Remember I pulled out No.13 a few months back, and was really impressed with its... everything, I guess. So, I finally got the cd player fixed and hit No.14 (Commissiona (sic)). Wow, this is a 'pounder' for sure, and by pounding, I mean the bass drum! This is one hot 47min. mess! The anger is palpable, the tumult is near inexhaustible, and the contours are forever crashing into one another. This one is kind of hard to like on a sunny day; I would most certainly recommend this for Category 1: no less than 70mph winds, and property damage, for this one.
So, I followed up with about half of No.15, which continues on from 14 in like fashion. My theory is this: 13 mirrors 9, 14 mirrors 10, and 15 mirrors 11.
I was again amazed at the amount of notes cascading around in 14. HOW? could he write Symphonies of so many notes when he had the hands of Rondo Hatton? Pretty impressive.
Still, weather plays a big part in me enjoying Pettersson on-the-road. Too still today.
I haven't heard No.16, the massive Saxophone Symphony, in decades. I might have to find...
I refuse to let my listening of 14 to go to waste. >:(
Quote from: snyprrr on January 14, 2013, 08:12:23 AM
I refuse to let my listening of 14 to go to waste. >:(
Anything past the 8th and anything before the 6th is a waste IMHO. Pettersson only wrote three good symphonies with the 7th being the best of the lot.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2013, 08:17:31 AM
Anything past the 8th and anything before the 6th is a waste IMHO. Pettersson only wrote three good symphonies with the 7th being the best of the lot.
That is, roughly, the 126th time you've told us that ;D
We get it!!! You only like 6-8!!! :D So, there really isn't any reason for you to post in this thread again, is there.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2013, 11:14:41 AM
That is, roughly, the 126th time you've told us that ;D We get it!!! You only like 6-8!!! :D So, there really isn't any reason for you to post in this thread again, is there.
Sarge
Well sure there's reason for me to continue post on Pettersson's thread: to declare my admiration of those three symphonies. :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2013, 11:19:41 AM
Well sure there's reason for me to continue post on Pettersson's thread: to declare my admiration of those three symphonies. :D
Okay...if you promise to only post your admiration once a day, I won't complain.
Sarge
There are four recordings of the 7th, which one do you prefer? My favorite is still Segerstam's. Dorati should be commended though for getting the ball rolling with this symphony. This is Pettersson's most famous work and once one is open to it, it's hard not to agree with it's popularity amongst listeners. It inhabits two worlds: light and darkness. The ethereal and the horrifying. The 6th gets close to this sound-world but isn't as consistent in doing so, but it does contain some incredibly poignant moments. The 8th is a mixture of the 7th with what he would go on to do later but in a more accessible way.
Wait a minute, I do like the compact Symphony No. 11. This is an interesting work and contains such a flurry of quick orchestral gestures, but has some nice lyrical moments that help make it all worthwhile.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2013, 11:14:41 AM
That is, roughly, the 126th time you've told us that ;D We get it!!! You only like 6-8!!! :D So, there really isn't any reason for you to post in this thread again, is there.
Sarge
LOOOOLZ!! :o :P ;D Ooooohhh that's funny!!
So, again, apparently, everyone thinks the 14th is the 'Snuff Film' of AGP's ouevre (as opposed to the 'Oscar Winner' 7th). All, also, declare the CPO much preferable to the Comissiona. That said, SOME!!, had something intelligent to say about this most bitter and spitting musical creation. Again, I think it relates the second most oft maligned, the 10th, in its refusal to let more than a breath at a time of the 'Song' elements. 14 & 10 are both almost all sneering and tantrums and bitterness.
Anyhow ::)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2013, 11:28:52 AM
There are four recordings of the 7th, which one do you prefer?
Although Dorati and I go way back (I bought the LP when it was first released in the 70s, and picked up the CD recently), and I do like Segerstam too, I'm with paulb: Albrecht goes to the island.
Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2013, 11:32:01 AM
Wait a minute, I do like the compact Symphony No. 11. This is an interesting work and contains such a flurry of quick orchestral gestures, but has some nice lyrical moments that help make it all worthwhile.
Yes, I remember hearing the first roll of cascading, minor-ish figures descending, and hearing him not let up on this particular mood. For me, 11 was the revelation, not the 7th. And, of course, the first AGP I got was the BIS 7/11,... no, wait, it was at the library, yes,...!!
oh well, I just accidentally erased the last 4 paragraphs of biting insight.
The worlde's losse...
I will single handedly use the AGP and Panufnik Threads to lock out the Elgar and Brian Threads from the Top2.
Bi-t-ches!! 8) :P ;D
Carry on, snypsss.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2013, 11:43:31 AM
Although Dorati and I go way back (I bought the LP when it was first released in the 70s, and picked up the CD recently), and I do like Segerstam too, I'm with paulb: Albrecht goes to the island.
Sarge
I'll have to give the Albrecht another listen. The Albrecht was the first 7th performance I heard, but I remember thinking "I wonder what another conductor could do with it?" Thankfully, I picked up the Segerstam and all was well with the world. :) But who knows? Maybe my opinion has changed on the Albrecht? I do recall some rough orchestral playing in this performance. Was Albrecht conducting a provincial orchestra, Sarge? I seem to not recall the orchestra.
Quote from: snyprrr on January 14, 2013, 11:49:08 AM
I will single handedly use the AGP and Panufnik Threads to lock out the Elgar and Brian Threads from the Top2.
Bi-t-ches!! 8) :P ;D
Oh, how mature. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2013, 12:00:37 PMWas Albrecht conducting a provincial orchestra, Sarge?
Yeah, the Hamburg State Philharmonic Orchestra (Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Hamburg). It's called the Philharmoniker Hamburg now.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2013, 12:26:29 PM
Yeah, the Hamburg State Philharmonic Orchestra (Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Hamburg).
Sarge
Kudos, Sarge. So, what is about this particular performance do you find so striking?
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2013, 12:00:37 PM
I'll have to give the Albrecht another listen. The Albrecht was the first 7th performance I heard, but I remember thinking "I wonder what another conductor could do with it?" Thankfully, I picked up the Segerstam and all was well with the world. :) But who knows? Maybe my opinion has changed on the Albrecht? I do recall some rough orchestral playing in this performance. Was Albrecht conducting a provincial orchestra, Sarge? I seem to not recall the orchestra.
I'll be taking Segerstam 7/11 in the car today. 7's no longer than 14, those two back-to-back would be an interesting compare. (I know, not for you!)
Commisiona was my introduction to the 7th and to Pettersson. I've also picked up Dorati and Segerstam along the way. Guess I'll have to gird my loins for a Pettersson-off.
Quote from: snyprrr on January 15, 2013, 08:10:07 AM
I'll be taking Segerstam 7/11 in the car today. 7's no longer than 14, those two back-to-back would be an interesting compare. (I know, not for you!)
First listening of Segerstam 7 in years: verdict?: powerful, anguished,... it's all good! 8)
Compared to the 14th (also at 47mins.), the 7th is practically minimalist! I'd say most of the Symphony is taken up with the 'nice' music, and there is a lot of one-line-at-a-time that leaves a very transparent texture, whereas the 14th is just one giant coiled viper of fits and stand-offs.
Symphony 7 sounds like the 'Aftermath', the viewing of the desolate landscape... the last 2mins. are nice...
For those who go nuts at Petterssons usually propagated picture of an eccentric old guy with round glasses and a beard...here he is, but not as you know him...still the round glasses though, but it looks like it could have been taken last night.
A jolly interesting fellow. I forgot he was young once too.
(http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/2482/2155887_520_290.jpg)
Quote from: Scots John on February 08, 2013, 08:08:28 PM
For those who go nuts at Petterssons usually propagated picture of an eccentric old guy with round glasses and a beard...here he is, but not as you know him...still the round glasses though, but it looks like it could have been taken last night.
A jolly interesting fellow. I forgot he was young once too.
(http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/2482/2155887_520_290.jpg)
I haven't seen this picture of him before, but I have seen younger pictures of him. He became quite the monster in his old age. >:D Anyway, a distinguished looking chap.
Quote from: Scots John on February 08, 2013, 08:08:28 PM
For those who go nuts at Petterssons usually propagated picture of an eccentric old guy with round glasses and a beard...here he is, but not as you know him...still the round glasses though, but it looks like it could have been taken last night.
A jolly interesting fellow. I forgot he was young once too.
(http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/2482/2155887_520_290.jpg)
Great photo - thanks for posting. He is young looking (with beret) on the front of my old LP of his Symphony No 2.
Quote from: Scots John on February 08, 2013, 08:08:28 PM
For those who go nuts at Petterssons usually propagated picture of an eccentric old guy with round glasses and a beard...here he is, but not as you know him...still the round glasses though, but it looks like it could have been taken last night.
A jolly interesting fellow. I forgot he was young once too.
(http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/2482/2155887_520_290.jpg)
He looks like a vindictive high school chemistry teacher! Super crisp pic!
Pulled out No.15, and the Viola Concerto (both BIS).
Today I found 15 very impressive. At 32mins., it seems a perfect length. There are a few magical moments, such as the (I think) descending celesta about half way through, and the odd harmonies of the 'siren song'. In a way I found myself thinking a little of Schnittke, but that could be BIS's or Segerstam's influence.
It IS a 'military drum' Symphony, though, I think the percussion is used splendidly in the whole piece. There is a certain joyousness in the music making here that isn't found in all Pettersson. If some of his Symphonies are murder-mysteries, then this one may be more of a ghost story.
Ideas just cascade over one another in a stream-of-consciousness style that almost has a Xenakian flow, a hallucinatory fever dream. The 'Big Melody' is almost obscured in its entirety here, though the trudging chorales are in full force; it's just that here, the harmonies lend themselves to what music be Petterson's most oriental melodies.
I recommend this to all the snowbound.
The Viola Concerto, by contrast, felt like a spinning ghost waltz, a very Viennese sound to my ears. There is no percussion here, so the 'game' is carried along by breathless swirlings of winds and strings. I must admit to not being able to follow the viola line very well, but, I guess Pettersson is making points about the plight of the poor individual against the mass.
Almost typically of Late Pettersson, the 'Big Melody' has turned more into harmonic chorales, or just odd, 'Petterssonian' melodies, light years from the opening of Symphony 8. There isn't the overt violence here, just rushing dramas and personal/psychological conflicts between said soloist and 'enemy'.
I'd be more interested in your ideas about the VC. I found it QUITE elusive today (I only had time for 2/3rds). It reminds me a little of Schumann's Cello Concerto ???,... perhaps?,... but it definitely seems like it needs to be played at 3am. I don't know exactly how I feel about it yet, but I suppose I already like it better than the Schnittke or Penderecki (Viola Concertos have gotten QUITE dark lately, no?!?!)
A sidebar to this thread, but who is your favorite composer, snyprrr? Don't give me a list of 20. I want to know who your numero uno is.
You,of all people,should know how impossible such a question is.
Quote from: The new erato on February 11, 2013, 09:02:22 PM
You,of all people,should know how impossible such a question is.
I'm just trying to figure out whose music snyprrr really loves. That's all and, yes, for many this is an incredibly difficult question.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 11, 2013, 08:04:13 PM
A sidebar to this thread, but who is your favorite composer, snyprrr? Don't give me a list of 20. I want to know who your numero uno is.
but, how can there be a heaven without a hell? I can't really play favs anymore these days,... it's just who's on at the moment.
Finzi! There, how's that?
Symphony No.5 (1960-62; BIS/Atzmon, 40:42)
I haven't listened to this in many years (have you?!). It was suitably overcast for Pettersson today, so, off we go!
I've gotten to the third marker on the cd, basically the coda, after the final Big Climax of the main middle section. I was already expecting the first, 7min. section to be a brooding introduction, so I have nothing much to add other than one begins to feel this is the sparest Pettersson of all. Everything is one-thing-at-a-time.
So, then, the main middle section begins, and, it too proceeds with the utmost economy of material, always varied, always proceeding with bits and shards and fragments of Pettersson-to-come, this Symphony is filthy littered with Petterssonian guideposts and trademarks that are to show up in 6-9 and beyond. It's almost Lachenmannian!
It almost seems as if GAP is Byzantine, bridging the gap between occidental and oriental melodies? So much of GAP's melodic MO is distilled here in its pure essence. As I said, everything moves in a funereal lyricism to the extreme of brooding Expressionism as no one else. The Big Climax is an exhausted two chord whack job with the low strings finally breaking the decibal barrier in the grandest BIS tradition. Even the climaxes in this Symphony are transparent, clear, concise, and short: the outbursts here are deliberately measured, and oddly frozen, as if looking at the horror as distant past? I can see where some might criticize the apparent lack of development (Penguin). If Penderecki's Romantic language was ascetic (@ No.2), I think you would have this. I sometimes felt GAP was toying with models, setting up aggressive clashes, and then quickly moving to the next scenario.
I cut it there just from the excitement of hearing your well thought out and deeply penetrating insights into this most enigmatic gravestone. In a way, it reminds me of Schnittke's 11th (or 13th?), as perhaps the sparest-longest work in history?
By the way, what do you think of Atzmon here? Did I here some 'flagging' in the Malmos in those long lines of string ostinatos? Anyone compare all three recordings?... or are there only two?...
Your favorite composer is Finzi? (Not that that's a bad thing . . . .)
I was rather iritated by the symphonies nos. 2, 3 and 4 and not very impressed by the 5 and 16.
But the 6 is really very funny, as if the coda of Bruckner adagio lasted the whole hour. I have heard it today for the first time and imediately started to relisten. And then have listened with pleasure to the 7, 8 and 9.
I have a friend who rates Symphony No 4 very highly. For me it is nos 6 to 8 and VC No 2. I must try to get my head round No 9.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 29, 2013, 11:53:37 PM
I have a friend who rates Symphony No 4 very highly. For me it is nos 6 to 8 and VC No 2. I must try to get my head round No 9.
We really just need a Bible Account,...ggyyaaaah >:D, isn't there a Celibidache 9?????
The CPO is ok, but one DOES want a second opinion.
I think I pegged
No.4 as the least 'slow' one? It certainly doesn't START in the depths, as so many others do, and, as such, it stands out. I would also rather have a second opinion of this one (only CPO at the moment).
Quote from: mszczuj on July 29, 2013, 01:31:15 PM
I was rather iritated by the symphonies nos. 2, 3 and 4 and not very impressed by the 5 and 16.
But the 6 is really very funny, as if the coda of Bruckner adagio lasted the whole hour. I have heard it today for the first time and imediately started to relisten. And then have listened with pleasure to the 7, 8 and 9.
I like No.3. Maybe, out of 2-5, I like 3 the best. For some reason it reminds me of American Gothic?,... Roy Harris on pharmas?
No.2: slow intro- 'grotesque' march for @25mins.- slow coda
No.3: only Symphony in... gasp!... MOVEMENTS!! :o... with a dark ending
No.4: only pre-9 Symphony to start rhythmically,... lots of 'signposts' of later developments
No.5: isn't this like No.2, but with the slow sections lengthened and the march shortened?
Then, No.6 comes of as a perfect integration of the decay of the Viennese Tradition (your Bruckner allusion)?
And here I thought we might be getting an annoucement of Lindberg's Ninth!! >:(
(shhh,... none would dare mention... gulp... 'Lindberg's Ninth', as it had already gone down in legend as the second coming of AGP) :P
Pettersson Day in my house. Complete cycle attempt. 4-8 already down. Nine now playing. Coffee made, latakia pipe tobacco loaded, headphones on, everyone else out doing other things. Razor blades and paracetamol hidden.
*straps on helmet*
Quote from: pencils on August 18, 2013, 05:57:43 AMRazor blades hidden.
:D ;D :D
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/petterssonsuicide.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2013, 06:35:50 AM
:D ;D :D
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/petterssonsuicide.jpg)
Sarge
;D ;D
No. 11 now. Thoroughly enjoying my day!
Quote from: pencils on August 18, 2013, 05:57:43 AM
Pettersson Day in my house. Complete cycle attempt. 4-8 already down. Nine now playing. Coffee made, latakia pipe tobacco loaded, headphones on, everyone else out doing other things. Razor blades and paracetamol hidden.
*straps on helmet*
Lol...I love these descriptions, pencils. :) What are your favorite Pettersson symphonies?
Pettersson was far too uneven to be amongst my favorite composers. That said, I treasure his masterworks, which are his Symphonies 6-8 and his VC 2. What makes these works so special amongst Pettersson's other works is that they contain glimmers of light in the abysmal darkness that give the listener the sense of a journey and struggling for a barely achievable hope. His other works, however, just seem to be never-ending blackness and agony that becomes rather wearisome as the listener is never rewarded by those brief glimmers of hope. That's just my two cents worth. :)
Quote from: kyjo on August 18, 2013, 10:04:44 AM
Pettersson was far too uneven to be amongst my favorite composers. That said, I treasure his masterworks, which are his Symphonies 6-8 and his VC 2. What makes these works so special amongst Pettersson's other works is that they contain glimmers of light in the abysmal darkness that give the listener the sense of a journey and struggling for a barely achievable hope. His other works, however, just seem to be never-ending blackness and agony that becomes rather wearisome as the listener is never rewarded by those brief glimmers of hope. That's just my two cents worth. :)
My sentiments exactly, Kyle. Those works you mentioned are my favorites as well. What's your favorite performance of the masterful
Symphony No. 7? Mine is a toss-up between Comissiona and Segerstam.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 18, 2013, 10:50:35 AM
My sentiments exactly, Kyle. Those works you mentioned are my favorites as well. What's your favorite performance of the masterful Symphony No. 7? Mine is a toss-up between Comissiona and Segerstam.
My favorite is Comissiona, with Dorati and Segerstam following close behind. BTW Dorati's excellent performance can be found on this Swedish Society disc, coupled with Yuri Ahronovitch's near-convincing performance of Pettersson's weakest symphony IMO, his Sixteenth:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S69SZVVJL.jpg)
I think it's high time I revisit the entire Pettersson cycle; perhaps my opinion will change for the better of the other symphonies (besides 6-8)? I'll have to carefully space out such a project, for obvious reasons! ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 18, 2013, 08:54:42 AM
What are your favorite Pettersson symphonies?
I guess you can live with the predictability of 6-8, but I very much enjoy 9, 4, 11 and 15-16. I have be honest in admitting that it is the bleakness of Pettersson that attracts me. I appreciate that he faces futility with such tenacity.
Highlight of today was 9 on full volume.
Actually, I would be remiss if I didn't include 2 in there. Listening for the second time today, and I find it is holding my attention more than ever.
Quote from: kyjo on August 18, 2013, 10:57:12 AM
My favorite is Comissiona, with Dorati and Segerstam following close behind. BTW Dorati's excellent performance can be found on this Swedish Society disc, coupled with Yuri Ahronovitch's near-convincing performance of Pettersson's weakest symphony IMO, his Sixteenth:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S69SZVVJL.jpg)
I think it's high time I revisit the entire Pettersson cycle; perhaps my opinion will change for the better of the other symphonies (besides 6-8)? I'll have to carefully space out such a project, for obvious reasons! ;)
Ah yes, I own that Dorati recording. I own four 7th performances. I'll have to plan a revisit through Pettersson's cycle as well. I have had problems with
Symphony No. 9. It will be interesting to see if I still encounter the same problems, or even possible new ones, with this symphony. Time to break out the Pettersson symphony set on CPO.
I agree with Kyle and John here.
Nos 6-8 are my favourites with VC No 2 as one of the greatest works ever written in the history of the universe. Dorati's No 7 is my favourite but maybe because that was my LP discovery of Pettersson (it had a striking cover image I recall, better than the CD). Also I got to know No 2 on LP which I liked, but not as much. I do need to find my way into the other Pettersson symphonies (No 9 in particular). I also like the 'long struggle towards the sunlight' of Symphony No 6 (from sleeve note to my Kamu LP - why has this never been released on CD - shame on CBS/Sony), the unbearably moving ending of VC No 2 (also discovered on LP) and the moments of tranquillity (not generally a Pettersson characteristic) of Symphony No 7.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 19, 2013, 12:29:27 AM
I do need to find my way into the other Pettersson symphonies (No 9 in particular).
Absolutely! I have listened to 9 about 3 times before. But last week on the train, it suddenly hit me as a great symphony.
Too many newly discovered Air Disaster Symphonies? (remember Brian 10?)
Quote from: springrite on August 19, 2013, 01:26:24 AM
Absolutely! I have listened to 9 about 3 times before. But last week on the train, it suddenly hit me as a great symphony.
Too many newly discovered Air Disaster Symphonies? (remember Brian 10?)
Ah yes, but I also remember the sense of 'grim, hard won, yet enduring triumph' :)
Quote from: pencils on August 18, 2013, 12:48:42 PM
I guess you can live with the predictability of 6-8, but I very much enjoy 9, 4, 11 and 15-16. I have be honest in admitting that it is the bleakness of Pettersson that attracts me. I appreciate that he faces futility with such tenacity.
Highlight of today was 9 on full volume.
Let me preface first by saying that any work you've heard several times becomes predictable. I mean I even find Schnittke's music predictable now as I've become accustomed to his musical language and the way he handles the music. My reaction about these more well-known symphonies of Pettersson is actually the opposite of predictable. Overall, I believe Pettersson's music is the most predictable of all composers I've heard IMHO, especially the later symphonies with their never-ending onslaughts of doom-laden orchestral crashes. What I found unpredictable, or maybe a better phrasing here is 'completely unexpected,' are those long lyrical laments in
Symphonies 6-8. These symphonies started off in the abyssal zone but the music came up to breathe on many occasions and this wasn't expected given the what had come before. So I guess I like the unpredictability of
Symphonies 6-8 more than the predictability of the later symphonies.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 11:09:58 AM
Let me preface first by saying that any work you've heard several times becomes predictable. I mean I even find Schnittke's music predictable now as I've become accustomed to his musical language and the way he handles the music. My reaction about these more well-known symphonies of Pettersson is actually the opposite of predictable. Overall, I believe Pettersson's music is the most predictable of all composers I've heard IMHO, especially the later symphonies with their never-ending onslaughts of doom-laden orchestral crashes. What I found unpredictable, or maybe a better phrasing here is 'completely unexpected,' are those long lyrical laments in Symphonies 6-8. These symphonies started off in the abyssal zone but the music came up to breathe on many occasions and this wasn't expected given the what had come before. So I guess I like the unpredictability of Symphonies 6-8 more than the predictability of the later symphonies.
Haha. What I meant was that predictably I also love 6-8 :D ;D
Quote from: pencils on August 20, 2013, 11:13:44 AM
Haha. What I meant was that predictably I also love 6-8 :D ;D
This is good to hear. I think he was at the top of his game in these symphonies and the
Violin Concerto No. 2. I honestly thought he should have stopped after
Symphony No. 8.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 11:16:44 AMI honestly thought he should have stopped after Symphony No. 8.
Noooo. No. 9!!!! I think the later works have an existential realism that can be really rewarding. For those bleak moments of despairing futility, there is nothing quite like them.
Even weird 16 grows on you. Like fungus.
Quote from: pencils on August 20, 2013, 11:25:11 AM
Noooo. No. 9!!!! I think the later works have an existential realism that can be really rewarding. For those bleak moments of despairing futility, there is nothing quite like them.
Even weird 16 grows on you. Like fungus.
I just can't get into
Symphony No. 9. :( There's no redeeming qualities about the music that make want to continue to listen. I was so frustrated last time I listened to it (several months ago) that I stopped it in utter disgust. To remedy it, I put on
Symphony No. 11 (w/ Segerstam). I felt like that was a much better work overall.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 11:43:54 AM
I just can't get into Symphony No. 9. :( There's no redeeming qualities about the music that make want to continue to listen. I was so frustrated last time I listened to it (several months ago) that I stopped it in utter disgust. To remedy it, I put on Symphony No. 11 (w/ Segerstam). I felt like that was a much better work overall.
Keep listening.
The reason you couldn't get into it is because you have not suffered enough.
The best way to appreciate Pettersson is to listen again and again when you don't like it and suffer! Suffer! then... *bing!*
Quote from: springrite on August 20, 2013, 11:48:14 AM
Keep listening.
The reason you couldn't get into it is because you have not suffered enough.
The best way to appreciate Pettersson is to listen again and again when you don't like it and suffer! Suffer! then... *bing!*
Lol...that's an interesting strategy, Paul. :D Did it actually work for you?
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 11:49:12 AM
Lol...that's an interesting strategy, Paul. :D Did it actually work for you?
I did most of my suffering work before I got to Pettersson. Frankly, I thought he's such a sissy and he had it easy, man!
Quote from: springrite on August 20, 2013, 11:51:39 AM
I did most of my suffering work before I got to Pettersson. Frankly, I thought he's such a sissy and he had it easy, man!
:D
Apparently, Christian Lindberg is going to be recording all of Pettersson's symphonies which is very good news.
http://www.youtube.com/v/OOM1hA9FDSw
Will love to hear what Lindberg and the Norrkoping SO will do in the 7th and 8th.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 08, 2013, 09:15:49 PM
Apparently, Christian Lindberg is going to be recording all of Pettersson's symphonies which is very good news.
Thanks for posting this....good news indeed. (And I now realize I've been mispronouncing Pettersson my entire life ;D ) One thing I'd debate, though, is Lindberg's belief that Pettersson will eventually occupy "the same position" with audiences as Mahler does today. As much as I like his music, I cannot see that kind of popularity happening.
AEFW
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 05:02:58 AM
Thanks for posting this....good news indeed. (And I now realize I've been mispronouncing Pettersson my entire life ;D ) One thing I'd debate, though, is Lindberg's belief that Pettersson will eventually occupy "the same position" with audiences as Mahler does today. As much as I like his music, I cannot see that kind of popularity happening.
AEFW
Yes, I doubt Pettersson will ever enjoy the success Mahler has had amongst listeners and in the concert halls.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 05:02:58 AM
Thanks for posting this....good news indeed. (And I now realize I've been mispronouncing Pettersson my entire life ;D ) One thing I'd debate, though, is Lindberg's belief that Pettersson will eventually occupy "the same position" with audiences as Mahler does today. As much as I like his music, I cannot see that kind of popularity happening.
AEFW
+ 1 to everything you said here (except for the Pettersson pronounciation).
That Pettersson pronunciation also surprised me, Sarge. So it sounds like this: Pater shon. Does look correct?
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2013, 09:08:19 AM
That Pettersson pronunciation also surprised me, Sarge. So it sounds like this: Pater shon. Does look correct?
Yeah, something like that...or something between pet and pat.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 09:12:35 AM
Yeah, something like that...or something between pet and pat.
Sarge
I think I'll just go back to my original pronunciation: Peter son. :P
I always thought it was something like petter-son, not Peter-son, the double tt was a clue.
:)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 11:09:58 AM
Let me preface first by saying that any work you've heard several times becomes predictable. I mean I even find Schnittke's music predictable now as I've become accustomed to his musical language and the way he handles the music. My reaction about these more well-known symphonies of Pettersson is actually the opposite of predictable. Overall, I believe Pettersson's music is the most predictable of all composers I've heard IMHO, especially the later symphonies with their never-ending onslaughts of doom-laden orchestral crashes. What I found unpredictable, or maybe a better phrasing here is 'completely unexpected,' are those long lyrical laments in Symphonies 6-8. These symphonies started off in the abyssal zone but the music came up to breathe on many occasions and this wasn't expected given the what had come before. So I guess I like the unpredictability of Symphonies 6-8 more than the predictability of the later symphonies.
I have now heard 3, 6 to 11, 16, and chunks of 13, 14, 15. Some more than once.
I like 6,7,8.
3 seems formless. 9 has moments. One of those moments comes at the end. Not all moments are good ones.
10 I might get to like but probably not a lot. Same with 11.
13, 14, 15 I gave up on. 16 I toughed out because I'm told Pettersson is about suffering. (Is Stockhausen about
causing suffering? :) )
So I'm pretty much with John.
Popular like Mahler? Never. Whatever else you can say about Mahler, he has an incredible melodic gift.
(I expect Mahler's popularity to fade some btw.)
I'll probably pick up 6-8 and let the rest slide. Will check out VC2.
Quote from: Ken B on March 01, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
I like 6,7,8.
So I'm pretty much with John.
These are still the best Pettersson symphonies for me. Forget the rest. Agree with what you say when comparing Pettersson with Mahler. Pettersson could never be a Mahler nor did he have an ever-expansive musical mind like Mahler. But this is really an apples/oranges comparison anyway. I think Pettersson's fate will rest in only the specialist area of classical music and his music only will appeal to a small group of listeners. I read he received some lessons from Honegger. If I were Honegger, I would have slapped some sense into this man and tell him to snap out of it! :D
To anyone looking for introductory words to the Pettersson symphonies, never mind the nay-sayers, just listen to all of them, for my money they only get better.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 01, 2014, 08:55:45 PM
To anyone looking for introductory words to the Pettersson symphonies, never mind the nay-sayers, just listen to all of them, for my money they only get better.
Like sludge, they only get better with age. ::)
So, does Pettersson put up with the most abuse here on GMG, or is it another?
"i WEAR YOUR SCORN LIKE A BADGE OF HONOR"
Dan Quail
What do you people have against pain and suffering? Such prejudice. ;)
So far I think 5 is the only one I did not like too much.
Quote from: Ken B on March 01, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
I like 6,7,8.
I think that's the core of his
oeuvre. If anything stands a chance of getting played more often than once in a blue moon, it's these symphonies.
I just bought the 6th Symphony (Lindberg) and had my first listen. Powerful but draining stuff.
QuotePopular like Mahler? Never. Whatever else you can say about Mahler, he has an incredible melodic gift.
Absolutely. Pettersson will never be other than a cult composer. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
BTW I also picked up the 14th recently, because I wanted to give late AP another shot. (I hated, hated,
hated the 13th!) Somewhat to my surprise, I rather like it. There's more contrast and drama in #14; it works better.
Quote from: Velimir on March 03, 2014, 07:18:13 AM
BTW I also picked up the 14th recently, because I wanted to give late AP another shot. (I hated, hated, hated the 13th!) Somewhat to my surprise, I rather like it. There's more contrast and drama in #14; it works better.
The 14th is one of Lethe's favorites and her advocacy convinced me to keep at until it became one of mine too. The struggle was worth it.
Sarge
Quote from: springrite on March 03, 2014, 07:12:36 AM
What do you people have against pain and suffering? Such prejudice. ;)
So far I think 5 is the only one I did not like too much.
I've sampled 4- it seems to be the only one that doesn't really have a long, slow intro. I'm not sure if it's really a strong work, but I can't wait to hear it from Lindberg. 5 is surely the weakest of the 'new' style, seeing as it's a warm-up for 6.
I really really liked 3. It sounds like the blackest 'normal' Symphony. I can't see calling AGP's only Symphony in movements "formless".
2 seems charmingly out of step with the times, but, the earlier Symphonies seem to me to suffer from that insistent recurring motif that seems to pervade always. But, as a blacker Honegger perhaps it works?
Lindberg should really step up the production time-line... mm. When will we get the definitive 9? (or even the LP issued)
Quote from: Velimir on March 03, 2014, 07:18:13 AM
I think that's the core of his oeuvre. If anything stands a chance of getting played more often than once in a blue moon, it's these symphonies.
I just bought the 6th Symphony (Lindberg) and had my first listen. Powerful but draining stuff.
Absolutely. Pettersson will never be other than a cult composer. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
BTW I also picked up the 14th recently, because I wanted to give late AP another shot. (I hated, hated, hated the 13th!) Somewhat to my surprise, I rather like it. There's more contrast and drama in #14; it works better.
Did you get the Commissiona(?). Yes, 14 is a little respite at 40minutes. But 13... ho ho ho... awesomely monstrous. If you need to sear for an hour, this is the work- is there a more draining hour out there???
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2014, 07:24:43 AM
The 14th is one of Lethe's favorites and her advocacy convinced me to keep at until it became one of mine too. The struggle was worth it.
Sarge
Outside of 6,7,8, I find 3, 10, 11 and 14 to be absolutely wonderful!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2014, 07:24:43 AM
The 14th is one of Lethe's favorites and her advocacy convinced me to keep at until it became one of mine too. The struggle was worth it.
Sarge
Any thoughts on 15, 16, 17 fragment? That Saxophone Symphony never gets discussed, and, I mean, a Pettersson SAXOPHONE Symphony??? Why doesn't THAT get any attention anywhere? Isn't that somewhat of an achievement?
I still like to turn to 10-11 as a pair... they equal one-full-AGP experience!!
Also, any thought on 2-4? Give 3 another go and tell me how it hits you today?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2014, 07:24:43 AM
The 14th is one of Lethe's favorites and her advocacy convinced me to keep at until it became one of mine too.
Yes, I've observed that folks who know 14 well speak highly of it. Another great help to me was the detailed listening guide put together by Xantus Murellet (whatever happened to him?), which I printed off the old forum. I'm still trying to crack the piece, but it keeps pulling me back, which is a good sign.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 03, 2014, 07:26:34 AM
2 seems charmingly out of step with the times,
Hmm, what exactly do you mean by this? Of the early syms., I've seen #2 recommended the most.
QuoteDid you get the Commissiona(?).
No, the Arnell on CPO.
Would you mind posting Xantus' guide here? I also struggle with this composer, I really like somethings and not at all others.
You can find the guide to #14 on this page:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.615.html
He goes through all or almost all of the symphonies in the course of the thread.
Quote from: springrite on March 03, 2014, 07:12:36 AM
What do you people have against pain and suffering? Such prejudice. ;)
Evidently nothing if you look how often I've gotten married.
veliir: "Absolutely. Pettersson will never be other than a cult composer. Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Indeed. I have my own cult composers! Virgil Thomson. Graeme Koehne. Is Hovhaness too popular to be a cult? He didn't used to be when I adopted him in the late 70s.
Quote from: Velimir on March 03, 2014, 10:12:41 AM
You can find the guide to #14 on this page:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.615.html
He goes through all or almost all of the symphonies in the course of the thread.
Thanks! It's kind of sad to see all of those posters that are no longer here...
Quote from: Ken B on March 03, 2014, 10:48:39 AM
veliir: "Absolutely. Pettersson will never be other than a cult composer. Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Indeed. I have my own cult composers! Virgil Thomson. Graeme Koehne. Is Hovhaness too popular to be a cult? He didn't used to be when I adopted him in the late 70s.
I have my own cult favorites, too: Schnittke, Hartmann, Koechlin, and Martin.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 03, 2014, 11:11:43 AM
I have my own cult favorites, too: Schnittke, Hartmann, Koechlin, and Martin.
Bzzzt. If we can count Martin I dibsed him in the late 70 s. But he's gone semi mainstream these days, lots available now. Never heard a note by Koechlin. Like his Mozart numbering though. :o
Quote from: Ken B on March 03, 2014, 01:12:19 PM
Bzzzt. If we can count Martin I dibsed him in the late 70 s. But he's gone semi mainstream these days, lots available now. Never heard a note by Koechlin. Like his Mozart numbering though. :o
Yes, there's a good bit available by Martin but he's not anywhere near a mainstay within the concert repertoire. I'd like to know the last time any of his music was programmed by a major orchestra? Anyone know? The same applies to each of the composers I mentioned above. Thankfully, there are many enterprising labels out there that continue to release more unknown repertoire, but this doesn't necessarily translate to the mainstream just because there are recordings available.
I saw the "Le vin Herbe" with choir and musicians from the Bergen Philharmonic (not exactly major but...) in Bergen a month ago. Wonderful.
I've seen little discussion of the Barefoot Songs here. Any thoughts on them? I'm considering getting the Monica Groop recording on CPO.
Quote from: Velimir on March 03, 2014, 06:52:55 PM
I've seen little discussion of the Barefoot Songs here.
Hm, for some reason these simple, touching songs don't get anything like the response to AP's ranting, raving, foaming-at-the-mouth symphonies. I wonder why? ;D
Quote from: Velimir on March 03, 2014, 06:52:55 PM
I've seen little discussion of the Barefoot Songs here. Any thoughts on them? I'm considering getting the Monica Groop recording on CPO.
I have the choral version on Caprice, with Symphony 14. I mean, they're just fairly plain choral settings; I'd have to revisit them, but I do not recall hearing THAT AGP sound coming from these pieces- they're just... mm... eh... ok?? I mean, if any 'normal' Composer had made these (Robert Beaser???) I wonder if anyone would even notice them.
I mean, please prove me wrong and point me to the one that melts the sun, but, I say no super great shakes here... really. Have not heard 'Vox Humana' or Symphony 12 yet.
I have the cpo disc. It is well performed, and they are very pretty songs and worth the time(I am a Lieder lover). Little angst here, but the main attractians are the odd phrases and bits that occasionally surfaces in the symphonies and in the violin concerto nr 2. Flickan går i Engen (The maiden walks in the Meadow) plays a central part in that concerto.
I'd really like to have heard the Fresk 'Concerto No.1 for Violin and String Quartet'- or a new recording. That CPO leaves just a touch more of wanting for me- there MUST be an appropriate disc-mate for this supremely odd bicycle music.
EXCUUUSE ME!!
Did NO ONE notice Lindberg's 9th being released. HELL-OOO!! It's on the header bar there. I mean, someone here should be crappin' themselves as they read this, no?
ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT
Has no one heard this yet? yea, I know some of you don't include the 9th in your... er... canon... uh... but it's still a Masterpiece and you will like it eventually, so just shuss with the complaining and get this 9th already and report back quickly!!
Yes we have. And it's been mentioned on some occasions.
Quote from: The new erato on April 07, 2014, 09:25:55 AM
Yes we have. And it's been mentioned on some occasions.
oh... uh... :-[ :-X :-\ ;) :) :D ;D... achoo!!... sorry, it must be the cough syrup! :-*
What did I miss? :-[ :P
Quote from: snyprrr on April 07, 2014, 07:27:10 AM
Did NO ONE notice Lindberg's 9th being released. HELL-OOO!! It's on the header bar there. I mean, someone here should be crappin' themselves as they read this, no?
I certainly noticed. I check eClassical every day. But I'm still recovering from the 6th.
Quote from: Daverz on April 07, 2014, 07:46:58 PM
I certainly noticed. I check eClassical every day. But I'm still recovering from the 6th.
No Pettersson on BRO. Depressing.
Very personal memory of AP from BIS CEO Robert von Bahr:
"Allan Pettersson's Vox Humana - a precursor to his 12th Symphony and a very important political statement with Pettersson. After the release he took as a habit to call me every night about 2 a.m., screaming his agony over the rheumatism that so destroyed his life. Several times I asked to be permitted to visit with him, but he always refused - he didn't want anyone to see him in that condition. Awful destiny - awesome music."
http://www.eclassical.com/pages/daily-deal.html?cache=purge
Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2014, 04:50:08 AM
[von Bahr:] After the release he took as a habit to call me every night about 2 a.m., screaming his agony over the rheumatism that so destroyed his life. Several times I asked to be permitted to visit with him, but he always refused - he didn't want anyone to see him in that condition.
Here's what I don't get. Due to his illness, he couldn't write. I think the 6th Symphony was the last one he completed with his own hands. How did he get all those huge symphonies down on paper?
Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2014, 04:50:08 AM
Very personal memory of AP from BIS CEO Robert von Bahr:
"Allan Pettersson's Vox Humana - a precursor to his 12th Symphony and a very important political statement with Pettersson. After the release he took as a habit to call me every night about 2 a.m., screaming his agony over the rheumatism that so destroyed his life. Several times I asked to be permitted to visit with him, but he always refused - he didn't want anyone to see him in that condition. Awful destiny - awesome music."
http://www.eclassical.com/pages/daily-deal.html?cache=purge
What an annoying man. If he called me at 2 AM every night, I'd have my number changed. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 16, 2014, 07:42:01 AM
What an annoying man. If he called me at 2 AM every night, I'd have my number changed. :)
So that's why you keep changing your number -- to avoid the people who annoys you but in turn annoys the people who actually care for you. ;)
BTW, I love he Barefoot Songs. Heck, I love everything I have heard from Petterssson, but lately, especially the VC2 and the chamber music, after listening to the symphonies for all these years.
Quote from: springrite on October 16, 2014, 08:31:48 AM
So that's why you keep changing your number -- to avoid the people who annoys you but in turn annoys the people who actually care for you. ;)
BTW, I love he Barefoot Songs. Heck, I love everything I have heard from Petterssson, but lately, especially the VC2 and the chamber music, after listening to the symphonies for all these years.
I think you're confusing some words here,
Paul. 'Phone number' and 'avatar' are two entirely different things. 8)
Quote from: springrite on October 16, 2014, 08:31:48 AM
So that's why you keep changing your number -- to avoid the people who annoys you but in turn annoys the people who actually care for you. ;)
BTW, I love he Barefoot Songs. Heck, I love everything I have heard from Petterssson, but lately, especially the VC2 and the chamber music, after listening to the symphonies for all these years.
Yes; the songs are fine and the VC 2 monumental.
Quote from: The new erato on October 16, 2014, 11:11:21 AM
Yes; the songs are fine and the VC 2 monumental.
The latter is his masterpiece.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2014, 12:11:56 PM
The latter is his masterpiece.
I see there are at least 2 recordings. Which do you recommend and why?
Quote from: Velimir on October 16, 2014, 12:24:57 PM
I see there are at least 2 recordings. Which do you recommend and why?
Handel, but that is OOP. But the cpo version is very fine, you can live well with that. I have both.
Quote from: The new erato on October 16, 2014, 12:54:56 PM
Handel, but that is OOP. But the cpo version is very fine, you can live well with that. I have both.
The Ida H. recording is on YouTube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJeu5xL_sE4)
Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2014, 01:54:44 PM
The Ida H. recording is on YouTube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJeu5xL_sE4)
No option for a true collector, only for you wannabees,
Quote from: The new erato on October 16, 2014, 01:57:30 PM
No option for a true collector, only for you wannabees,
sock it to 'em!! ;) WE WANT STUFF!!
Figuring out the 9th
I'd like to get some views on the 9th Symphony. Earlier I rejected it based on some reviews I had read, which led me to the perception that this was where AP finally tipped over into unbalanced ranting. Both the reviews and the length of the piece made me believe I would be wise to steer clear of it.
Lately I'm re-considering. I heard some excerpts, and a couple of things stood out: 1) it seems to be mostly fast energetic music, and 2) it sounds rather impersonal, like some great force of nature, rather than the usual suffering AP persona. Listening to the snippets reminded me a bit of Krenek and other post-Mahler composers.
Having tried the 14th and enjoyed it, I wonder if I might also like the 9th. Also, I see Lindberg's CD of the piece is now out, and getting good reviews in its own right.
Quote from: Velimir on October 24, 2014, 12:33:10 PM
Figuring out the 9th
I'd like to get some views on the 9th Symphony. Earlier I rejected it based on some reviews I had read, which led me to the perception that this was where AP finally tipped over into unbalanced ranting. Both the reviews and the length of the piece made me believe I would be wise to steer clear of it.
Lately I'm re-considering. I heard some excerpts, and a couple of things stood out: 1) it seems to be mostly fast energetic music, and 2) it sounds rather impersonal, like some great force of nature, rather than the usual suffering AP persona. Listening to the snippets reminded me a bit of Krenek and other post-Mahler composers.
Having tried the 14th and enjoyed it, I wonder if I might also like the 9th. Also, I see Lindberg's CD of the piece is now out, and getting good reviews in its own right.
Having had a CD of it for years but only listened once before I gave it another go recently and really thought much more highly of it, finding it both powerful and moving. It has a rather relentless 'batter-you-over-the-head' quality to it but I no longer saw this as a defect.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 25, 2014, 12:21:00 AM
It has a rather relentless 'batter-you-over-the-head' quality to it but I no longer saw this as a defect.
Fanfare's review of it makes a similar point:
"Hearing this symphony, I imagine myself as a landmass over which a relentless series of cold fronts pass, over the course of 70 minutes. Some produce heavy rain, others thunder and lightning, and still others a dense fog...It's like being pelted with rain and gale-force winds, and being unable to find shelter. After having heard this symphony a handful of times over about as many days, I am beginning to think that it is not very good for my mental health."
http://www.fanfaremag.com/content/view/59083/10270/
Quote from: Velimir on October 25, 2014, 08:36:55 AM
Fanfare's review of it makes a similar point:
"Hearing this symphony, I imagine myself as a landmass over which a relentless series of cold fronts pass, over the course of 70 minutes. Some produce heavy rain, others thunder and lightning, and still others a dense fog...It's like being pelted with rain and gale-force winds, and being unable to find shelter. After having heard this symphony a handful of times over about as many days, I am beginning to think that it is not very good for my mental health."
http://www.fanfaremag.com/content/view/59083/10270/
Thanks. Interesting review. I will try to listen to it again over the next couple of days and report back. I did enjoy it (if that is the right word) last time I heard it.
Quote from: Velimir on October 24, 2014, 12:33:10 PM
Figuring out the 9th
I'd like to get some views on the 9th Symphony. Earlier I rejected it based on some reviews I had read, which led me to the perception that this was where AP finally tipped over into unbalanced ranting. Both the reviews and the length of the piece made me believe I would be wise to steer clear of it.
Lately I'm re-considering. I heard some excerpts, and a couple of things stood out: 1) it seems to be mostly fast energetic music, and 2) it sounds rather impersonal, like some great force of nature, rather than the usual suffering AP persona. Listening to the snippets reminded me a bit of Krenek and other post-Mahler composers.
Having tried the 14th and enjoyed it, I wonder if I might also like the 9th. Also, I see Lindberg's CD of the piece is now out, and getting good reviews in its own right.
sorry
the 9th, more than any other, is "just information" as AGP would say.
i find it totally Abstract.
listen along with
R Sessions to
'get it
'
Quote from: snyprrr on October 25, 2014, 05:05:33 PM
sorry
the 9th, more than any other, is "just information" as AGP would say.
i find it totally Abstract.
That's precisely why I now find it intriguing. If AP steps out of his persona of suffering and gloom to write a more "objective" type of symphony, I find that notion quite interesting, and I'm wondering how well it works. Is this AP trying to write like Simpson, Frankel or Holmboe, and does he succeed or not? That is the question.
Thanks to The Haydn House Collection (http://www.haydnhouse.com/home.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/home.htm)) I finally heard Pettersson's 6th conducted by Okku Kamu. What an incredible performance!! Too many thoughts to put down regarding this recording so all I want to say is: buy this set!!!
P.S.
The 2CD set also comes with Comissiona conducting Pettersson's 9th (haven't heard yet due to restarting the Kamu :)).
Quote from: rw1883 on June 04, 2015, 08:23:03 AM
Thanks to The Haydn House Collection (http://www.haydnhouse.com/home.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/home.htm)) I finally heard Pettersson's 6th conducted by Okku Kamu. What an incredible performance!! Too many thoughts to put down regarding this recording so all I want to say is: buy this set!!!
P.S.
The 2CD set also comes with Comissiona conducting Pettersson's 9th (haven't heard yet due to restarting the Kamu :)).
The Kamu performance of Symphony 6 is in a class of its own. Very sad that it has never been issued on CD.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2015, 09:32:45 AM
The Kamu performance of Symphony 6 is in a class of its own. Very sad that it has never been issued on CD.
Perhaps I have to connect my record player to my system again. I have the LP.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2015, 09:32:45 AM
The Kamu performance of Symphony 6 is in a class of its own. Very sad that it has never been issued on CD.
The Commissiona 8 and 9 and Dorati 10 were also, as far as I know, never reissued.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 20, 2015, 02:42:59 PM
The Commissiona 8 and 9 and Dorati 10 were also, as far as I know, never reissued.
The former was amazingly released on a DGG LP.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2015, 11:14:45 PM
The former was amazingly released on a DGG LP.
I have that (Comissiona)as well on LP. Fond memories. Originally recorded IIRC by Stickan Andersson's (ABBAs manager) Polar label subsidized with ABBA money. I think I have the Swedish Polar issue, but need to check.
Quote from: The new erato on September 21, 2015, 12:08:00 AM
I have that (Comissiona)as well on LP. Fond memories. Originally recorded IIRC by Stickan Andersson's (ABBAs manager) Polar label subsidized with ABBA money. I think I have the Swedish Polar issue, but need to check.
I have the LP too - it was such a great surprise to see it released at the time. 😀
A new recording of 13 is out: http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2190 (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2190)
(http://www.bis.se/images/covers/BIS-2190_72_150.jpg)
Quote from: Wieland on October 15, 2015, 04:29:43 AM
A new recording of 13 is out: http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2190 (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2190)
(http://www.bis.se/images/covers/BIS-2190_72_150.jpg)
Wonderful news. I knew from the orchestras website that it was under way, but still...
http://www.norrkopingssymfoniorkester.se/index.php/en/news/allan-pettersson-news (http://www.norrkopingssymfoniorkester.se/index.php/en/news/allan-pettersson-news)
Quote from: Wieland on October 15, 2015, 04:29:43 AM
A new recording of 13 is out: http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2190 (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2190)
(http://www.bis.se/images/covers/BIS-2190_72_150.jpg)
Interesting. The 13th was the piece that made me stop listening to Pettersson for years. It was like 67 minutes of being trapped on a construction site, with jackhammers going at full blast. I hated it so much then, that I am rather intrigued by it now.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 15, 2015, 07:08:19 AM
Interesting. The 13th was the piece that made me stop listening to Pettersson for years. It was like 67 minutes of being trapped on a construction site, with jackhammers going at full blast. I hated it so much then, that I am rather intrigued by it now.
I just listened to the piece - not the new one which I don't own - but the cpo recording with Alun Francis conducting. This is really a tough nut. It is definitely one of the most difficult pieces that you can listen too. It is so tense and there is so little relief. I like very much the second "lyric island" shortly before the end, but before you get there...oooh. I am not sure whether I need a second recording. I will wait until the reviews are out.
Quote from: Wieland on October 15, 2015, 10:26:54 AM
I just listened to the piece - not the new one which I don't own - but the cpo recording with Alun Francis conducting.
That's the one I had. I remember it was a single 67-minute track. Very listener-unfriendly.
In the liner notes it said that one inspiration behind the symphony was a rude neighbor of AP, playing pop and rock music loudly and irritating the nerves of the already very ill composer. I can believe that.
QuoteI will wait until the reviews are out.
That should be some interesting reading.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 15, 2015, 11:34:30 AM
That's the one I had. I remember it was a single 67-minute track. Very listener-unfriendly.
In the liner notes it said that one inspiration behind the symphony was a rude neighbor of AP, playing pop and rock music loudly and irritating the nerves of the already very ill composer. I can believe that.
A commission from my hometown orchestra.
Re the common complaint (sometimes voiced here) that Petterson is too morbid and miserable. The other day I was reading a book about the Battle of Stalingrad, and after I came to the end of a chapter I put on Petterson's 13th. After a while I thought "If anything, Petterson is a bit on the optimistic side".
Quote from: Wieland on October 15, 2015, 10:26:54 AM
I just listened to the piece - not the new one which I don't own - but the cpo recording with Alun Francis conducting. This is really a tough nut. It is definitely one of the most difficult pieces that you can listen too. It is so tense and there is so little relief. I like very much the second "lyric island" shortly before the end, but before you get there...oooh. I am not sure whether I need a second recording. I will wait until the reviews are out.
I find the Lindberg/BIS recordings brings out qualities in the symphonies not heard elsewhere. They have a very transparent "airiness" that brings out nearly chamber music-like qualities that lightens the textures and moods of the music.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 16, 2015, 09:38:16 PM
Re the common complaint (sometimes voiced here) that Petterson is too morbid and miserable. The other day I was reading a book about the Battle of Stalingrad, and after I came to the end of a chapter I put on Petterson's 13th. After a while I thought "If anything, Petterson is a bit on the optimistic side".
i like this observation ;)
Well; I'm reading Max Hastings on Ypres and Passchendale......
Quote from: The new erato on October 18, 2015, 08:09:34 AM
Well; I'm reading Max Hastings on Ypres and Passchendale......
what of this third recording of No.13 that I just saw on Amazon????? Released this year with what looks like a Swedish orchestra????
The not as yet released BIS?
In Germany it is already available, e.g. from www.jpc.de
No sign of it in the UK; and as it will be available for around £9 vs 20 Euros, I think I'll wait....
Quote from: The new erato on October 18, 2015, 08:42:10 AM
The not as yet released BIS?
No, I was prompted to check Amazon yesterday, and there is a 4rd 13 already available, this year,... just take a scroll through the Amazon and you'll see,... A THIRD THIRTEEN!!!!! Not BIS.
Concerto (No.1) for Violin and String Quartet
CPO- Mandelring SQ
MDG- Leipzig SQ
LP- Fresk SQ
This may actually be one of my very favored AGP works, written whilst on a country bike ride, and sounding very much like it. The bike allusion seeps into the music, with whirring wheels and spokes, and broken tires. Truly, this very much different than a lot of AGP , being not as emotional- more "3rd person", even though it is autobiographical: one can hear his grumpiness as his bike breaks down, but it all seems to be in lighter spirits than the later scorching indictments.
I only have the CPO, but am considering the MDG. Does anyone know where we can hear the Fresk?
Re-visiting the 8th
Time for a little nostalgia trip. My very first experience of Pettersson's music was a WFMT broadcast of the 8th Symphony back in 1983, with the Chicago Symphony under a conductor I was unfamiliar with, Varujan Kojian. It was an impressive experience. At the time I was only a little past the classical newbie phase, and was able to recognize the similarities to Mahler and Shostakovich in Pettersson's music.
As far as I know, this was the one and only time the CSO programmed a Pettersson symphony.
To my delight I managed to locate a download of this concert. You can listen to it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1466ki17r1m6zp0/PtSy8.zip
So far I've only listened to the first part, but it strikes me as a very powerful and clearly structured performance. While Commissiona does an excellent job with this symphony in his recording, I think Kojian is even better, both in bringing out details and delineating the overall dramatic arc. Among other things, the similarity to the opening of Nielsen 5 really stands out here: the way the peaceful twilight world gradually becomes filled with a sense of agitation and crisis. The Nielsen connection is also underlined by the very strong use of the snare drum, which is more prominent here than in Commissiona's performance.
So, for your listening pleasure: one of the few - perhaps only? - live performances of Pettersson by a top-ranking American orchestra.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 31, 2016, 11:18:31 AM
To my delight I managed to locate a download of this concert. You can listen to it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1466ki17r1m6zp0/PtSy8.zip
Thanks. I'l listen to it soon.
Sarge
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 31, 2016, 11:18:31 AM
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1466ki17r1m6zp0/PtSy8.zip
Thanks for this! Interesting to hear a "foreign" orchestra play Pettersson (Not that Chicago is that foreign to us Swedes, a hundred years ago there where enough Swedes living there to make it the third largest Swedish municipal)
.. Quite different sounding for me, perhaps not enough bite for my ears (much like the CPO Pettersson cycle)... I will have to listen again tomorrow!
/ptr
Quote from: ptr on February 04, 2016, 10:19:38 AM
Thanks for this! Interesting to hear a "foreign" orchestra play Pettersson (Not that Chicago is that foreign to us Swedes, a hundred years ago there where enough Swedes living there to make it the third largest Swedish municipal)
Well, there's still a part of Chicago called Andersonville, but nowadays it's mostly Middle Eastern...
BTW the first recording of this symphony was also done by an American orchestra (Baltimore).
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 04, 2016, 10:38:16 AM
BTW the first recording of this symphony was also done by an American orchestra (Baltimore).
I know, unfortunately I never wormed very much to Comissiona's Pettersson interpretations either. I always find him a bit to upbeat for Pettersson's symphonies... For me, Dorati comes close, but Segerstam always hits the mark! Pity, Segerstam did not get hired to complete his Pettersson cycle for Bis as he is the right conductor for this kind of music..
/ptr
I just don't think I care anymore.
My favorite piece right now is the Violin Concerto No.1 of 1949, a true Masterpiece in my view.
Otherwise, if I had to, I might turn in some Symphonies,... :(
It's like you just can't let him out of his closet, or something.....
I remember how surprised I was when DGG issued an LP of Symphony 8 (Baltimore SO/Commissiona I think). Like Okko Kamu's excellent performance of Symphony 6 it was never, as far as I'm aware, issued on CD. My introduction to his music, however, was Dorati's wonderful LP of Symphony 7. His Violin Concerto 2 is his masterpiece I think.
Your post completely covers my experiencees.
Quote from: The new erato on May 25, 2016, 01:07:08 AM
Your post completely covers my experiencees.
At this point, I think it's fair to say that anyone getting into AGP for the first time might have the same trajectory. Right now, the only one I want to hear is the most hated: 13, simply because it's one of the most complex works ever...
... yea, when I have an hour during a thunderstorm...
What did it for me was learning that AGP and BAZ both studied with The'Lieb(?)... and, whereas both seem to share an equal amount of notes, BAZ went so much farther... all the way to the other side, whilst AGP seems to have stayed in the 1952-3 development era.
Maybe not a good morning for me to start ranting... especially with everyone's fav whipping boy...
sigh
We whip with tender, loving care, dear snyppr
Having resurrected a thread on Rosenberg, I thought it might be good to have a think about his compatriot. Listening to Rosenberg's choral symphonies reminded me of Pettersson's 12th, although that work is obviously rather more troubled.
I just listened to the Symphony No. 5, conducted by Andreas Kahler on Youtube. Its really good - better than my CPO disc. Its really emotionally powerful in a way that the CPO is not. It seems connected to the hyper-emotionality of next three symphonies. I think the CPO has got a dynamics problem. Any thoughts on Symphony No. 5?
It never ceases to amaze me how much difference the conductor's interpretation makes for this composer.
Now BIS is well into releasing the whole cycle and the recordings are getting good reviews, what do you think, does Pettersson stand a chance of breaking into the mainstream?
Quote from: Androcles on October 27, 2016, 02:34:09 PM
Having resurrected a thread on Rosenberg, I thought it might be good to have a think about his compatriot. Listening to Rosenberg's choral symphonies reminded me of Pettersson's 12th, although that work is obviously rather more troubled.
I just listened to the Symphony No. 5, conducted by Andreas Kahler on Youtube. Its really good - better than my CPO disc. Its really emotionally powerful in a way that the CPO is not. It seems connected to the hyper-emotionality of next three symphonies. I think the CPO has got a dynamics problem. Any thoughts on Symphony No. 5?
It never ceases to amaze me how much difference the conductor's interpretation makes for this composer.
Now BIS is well into releasing the whole cycle and the recordings are getting good reviews, what do you think, does Pettersson stand a chance of breaking into the mainstream?
I don't know Symphony 5 well and must listen to it. Your comment about conductors is very true with Pettersson I think. With this in mind it's a pity that Kamu's CBS recording of Symphony 6 and Commissiona's DGG version of Symphony 8 have never been released on CD. I think that Symphony 7 is the only one with potentially mainstream appeal or possibly the magnificent Violin Concerto 2 but I suspect that Pettersson will remain of minority appeal. For economic reasons concert promoters seem to be less and less adventurous for their choice of repertoire.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 27, 2016, 10:53:15 PM
I don't know Symphony 5 well and must listen to it. Your comment about conductors is very true with Pettersson I think. With this in mind it's a pity that Kamu's CBS recording of Symphony 6 and Commissiona's DGG version of Symphony 8 have never been released on CD.
Truly wonderful versions which I have on LP, having been bitten by the Pettersson bug early on.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 27, 2016, 10:53:15 PM
I think that Symphony 7 is the only one with potentially mainstream appeal or possibly the magnificent Violin Concerto 2 but I suspect that Pettersson will remain of minority appeal. For economic reasons concert promoters seem to be less and less adventurous for their choice of repertoire.
No 7 is the only one I've ever heard or seen programmed in Norway except for no 13 commisioned and premiered by the Bergen orchestra (I saw it directly transmitted on TV in the 70ies; not a work to be enjoyed on a black and white TV set with a small mono speaker). Violin Concerto 2 is indeed magnificent, but it's long (if a concerto is long it needs to be very well known to be programmed) and totaly exhausting for orchestra and soloist (meaning that few will be interested in the investment og learning it).
I have often wondered why the Eighth hasn't been programmed more often. It's got a smoothly flowing quality and a relatively low amount of anger for a Pettersson symphony that ought to make it "accessible" to audiences. It reminds me somewhat of Nielsen.
My favourite Pettersson symphonies are the Tenth and Eleventh, and sadly a barrier to getting those on programmes is the length. At only 20–30 minutes long, they would need to share half of a concert with another piece, but they are so intense on their own that a pairing would feel inappropriate.
Quote from: CRCulver on October 28, 2016, 12:20:19 AM
I have often wondered why the Eighth hasn't been programmed more often. It's got a smoothly flowing quality and a relatively low amount of anger for a Pettersson symphony that ought to make it "accessible" to audiences. It reminds me somewhat of Nielsen.
I agree. Also, it's in 2 mvts. so you get a small break from the anguish, and the first mvt. is a sort of sonata form that is easy to follow.
It does remind me a lot of Nielsen's 5th; I really felt that connection listening to the CSO performance I posted above.
I guess with respect to breaking into the mainstream, I was thinking of Mark Morris' comments in 'The Pimlico Dictionary of Twentieth Century Composers':
'It may be that (as was once the case with Mahler) Pettersson's enormous and heartfelt symphonies have suffered from the lack of performances by sympathetic world-class forces. Apart from scores, virtually the only acquaintance possible with Pettersson's music has been through recordings, often made shortly after premieres. Major interpreters may reveal new dimensions to, in particular, the structure of Pettersson's creations; conversely, they may confirm the inability of those structures to hold up such great lengths, troubled emotions, and limitations of thematic material. His music - and in particular the seventh and eighth symphonies - certainly deserves that test' (p382)
Assuming that Lindberg's (and before him, Segerstam's) performances are the kind of thing Mark Morris has in mind, how do you think Pettersson's music stands up? I certainly think Lindberg made more sense of the Ninth than anyone before him. The 7th and 8th are obviously the most approachable, with the 6th not far behind. 5 and 9 stand on the cusp of those central three. I could imagine 5-9 getting something of a following from adventurous conductors and audiences, although as you say, the 7th is the most obvious candidate for making a breakthrough. The 2nd Violin Concerto is certainly a fantastic work, but I'm not sure its as approachable as the 7th Symphony.
The early symphonies are a bit of a challenge as the emotion doesn't sit on the surface in quite the same way, and in the later symphonies you have to listen quite a few times before the rather complex structures start to work their way out of the grimy polyphonic mud into your consciousness....
Quote from: Androcles on October 28, 2016, 01:34:45 PM
Assuming that Lindberg's (and before him, Segerstam's) performances are the kind of thing Mark Morris has in mind, how do you think Pettersson's music stands up? I certainly think Lindberg made more sense of the Ninth than anyone before him. The 7th and 8th are obviously the most approachable, with the 6th not far behind. 5 and 9 stand on the cusp of those central three. I could imagine 5-9 getting something of a following from adventurous conductors and audiences, although as you say, the 7th is the most obvious candidate for making a breakthrough. The 2nd Violin Concerto is certainly a fantastic work, but I'm not sure its as approachable as the 7th Symphony.
To my mind, symphonies 6-8 are the heart of his work, and the only symphonies that stand a chance of being performed more often than once in a blue moon. Possibly one could add the 2nd VC - it certainly has its fans around here - but it must be an exhausting piece to perform.
Of the late symphonies, only #14 has attracted me back for further listens. I just realized that the 6th Sym., 2nd VC and 14th Sym. all have an interesting thing in common: they are each based on one of AP's "Barefoot Songs." Perhaps this gives them a lyrical element that makes them more immediately attractive.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 28, 2016, 01:51:49 PM
Of the late symphonies, only #14 has attracted me back for further listens.
Speaking of which, Lindberg's 14th was just released:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/Pettersson_sy14_BIS2230.htm
I'm curious to hear how it stacks up. In one respect it is already superior: multiple tracks, as opposed to CPO's one 47-minute track.
The review refers to the piece having "movements," although as far as I know it's a one-movement work. Maybe the reviewer was referring to the individual tracks?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 28, 2016, 01:51:49 PM
To my mind, symphonies 6-8 are the heart of his work, and the only symphonies that stand a chance of being performed more often than once in a blue moon. Possibly one could add the 2nd VC - it certainly has its fans around here - but it must be an exhausting piece to perform.
Of the late symphonies, only #14 has attracted me back for further listens. I just realized that the 6th Sym., 2nd VC and 14th Sym. all have an interesting thing in common: they are each based on one of AP's "Barefoot Songs." Perhaps this gives them a lyrical element that makes them more immediately attractive.
Interesting point about the 'Barefoot Songs'. I knew that VC 2 was based on one but not the other works.
I really hope Lindberg conducts Pettersson's 7th as this is really the only work of his I enjoy with any frequency.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 06, 2017, 08:16:17 AM
I really hope Lindberg conducts Pettersson's 7th as this is really the only work of his I enjoy with any frequency.
I doubt this will happen. BIS already has a 7th under Segerstam, and I think Lindberg is just filling in the symphonies that Segerstam didn't conduct.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 06, 2017, 09:29:55 AM
I doubt this will happen. BIS already has a 7th under Segerstam, and I think Lindberg is just filling in the symphonies that Segerstam didn't conduct.
Wouldn't that be my luck. :-\
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 06, 2017, 09:29:55 AM
I doubt this will happen. BIS already has a 7th under Segerstam, and I think Lindberg is just filling in the symphonies that Segerstam didn't conduct.
The MusicWeb review states that 7 & 17 will be up next year.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2017, 11:49:33 AM
The MusicWeb review states that 7 & 17 will be up next year.
This site emphatically states that this will be so: http://www.norrkopingssymfoniorkester.se/orkestern/aktuellt/allan-pettersson/inspelningsplan-foer-allan-pettersson-projektet (http://www.norrkopingssymfoniorkester.se/orkestern/aktuellt/allan-pettersson/inspelningsplan-foer-allan-pettersson-projektet)
This probably is a late addition, as the box set originally were to use the existing Segerstam recording. The success of the series probably have made them extend the recording series.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2017, 11:49:33 AM
The MusicWeb review states that 7 & 17 will be up next year.
Awesome! 8)
This composer has been new for me in this year. How pain you can feel in his works (especially the symphonies), there are many mixed feelings that show the intense suffering that Pettersson lived. I've heard the symphonies 1 to 11 and it's difficult explain with words the emotional content in them. You become absorbed. I highlight with special emphasis the symphonies 6 and 9: Those endings are simply AGONIZING (I have thought of an appropriate word to describe that and I think it's a very close), there is an incredibly strong struggle there, perhaps a battle between life and death, light and darkness... I admire that capacity of survival that had this illustrious composer. I believe without fear of being mistaken that he was one of the great composers of the 20th century and it is more than well deserved that his music be recorded and spread more.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 25, 2017, 12:03:33 AM
What is Gustav Mahler was a demon born in hell, then came to earth to compose symphonies while retaining a very tragic life?
Then you have one of the greatest alternative-20th century symphonists of all time! :D
I think Pettersson is an interesting composer, but he's nowhere near a Mahler or a Shostakovich IMHO.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 07, 2017, 07:22:52 PMLol, it's all opinions but I'm beginning to feel otherwise (regarding his music), many of his symphonies are really strong and heartbreakingly powerful. I would definitely put his name alongside Mahler or Shostakovich without any shame. :P
I do have huge love for his
Symphony No. 7. I think this is one of the best post-WWII symphonies I've heard from anyone. What I like about it is it's not all dreary, grey skies. I suppose it's just an aesthetic thing, but I just don't find his musical language too appealing and, yes, it's all opinions. What else would it be? ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 07, 2017, 07:33:35 PM
I suppose it's just an aesthetic thing, but I just don't find his musical language too appealing and, yes, it's all opinions. What else would it be? ;)
I'm another member of the Patterson is pretty blah to me club. "Modern harmony" combined with his near to wholesale romantic gestures sensibility leaves me untouched, and while recognizing any composer's ability to hold together a large form, still unimpressed.
I suppose for many, his harmony and musical language are thrillingly adventurous, and we know there are many who just love 'symphony' to a degree where just about any competent 20th century work in that form will get praised, many such praised to a degree far beyond their actual merit because, you know, "It Is A Symphony." My guess is that it is the highly romantic nature of Patterson's works which has them appealing to so many.
Other than Mahler, who was actually late romantic and to my way of thinking far more truly modern as well (and perhaps Sibelius, though with a retro-conservative musical language, via his subtle varying and development / evolvement of his themes, is also truly more modern than Patterson.) The "great symphonist of the 20th century" thing, imo, is a somewhat odd and regressive thing to celebrate (and I have to here include the Shostakovitch admirers and fanatics.)
But, all opinion, natch, and maybe an over-elaborate way of saying 'it ain't for me.'
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 07, 2017, 08:30:03 PM
I'm another member of the Patterson is pretty blah to me club. "Modern harmony" combined with his near to wholesale romantic gestures sensibility leaves me untouched, and while recognizing any composer's ability to hold together a large form, still unimpressed.
I suppose for many, his harmony and musical language are thrillingly adventurous, and we know there are many who just love 'symphony' to a degree where just about any competent 20th century work in that form will get praised, many such praised to a degree far beyond their actual merit because, you know, "It Is A Symphony." My guess is that it is the highly romantic nature of Patterson's works which has them appealing to so many.
Other than Mahler, who was actually late romantic and to my way of thinking far more truly modern as well (and perhaps Sibelius, though with a retro-conservative musical language, via his subtle varying and development / evolvement of his themes, is also truly more modern than Patterson.) The "great symphonist of the 20th century" thing, imo, is a somewhat odd and regressive thing to celebrate (and I have to here include the Shostakovitch admirers and fanatics.)
But, all opinion, natch, and maybe an over-elaborate way of saying 'it ain't for me.'
I'm not one to close doors on a composers just because they aren't 'ahead of their time' or anything of that notion. There's plenty of great music out there that doesn't have one shred of innovation to it that I love. As I mentioned, only with Pettersson's 7th did I find the musical language appealing and appealing in a way that
touched me. Everything else I've heard from him, which includes the rest of his symphonic cycle and the
Violin Concerto No. 2, hasn't impressed me much at all. For me, a Mahler or a Shostakovich he'll never be, he's just not
that good.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 07, 2017, 09:28:22 PM
I'm not one to close doors on a composers just because they aren't 'ahead of their time' or anything of that notion.
If that were the case, I would not love at least half of the 20th century composers whose music I do love. I brought that up in the context of so many wildly praising -- in my perception, anyway -- just about anything 'symphony' to a point where I sense a bias for the form, or notion of it, that allows a suspension of rational critical faciliities ;-)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 07, 2017, 09:28:22 PM
As I mentioned, only with Pettersson's 7th did I find the musical language appealing and appealing in a way that touched me. Everything else I've heard from him, which includes the rest of his symphonic cycle and the Violin Concerto No. 2, hasn't impressed me much at all. For me, a Mahler or a Shostakovich he'll never be, he's just not that good.
Gasp :o Do you mean to imply that a host of ardent Petterson fans are lacking in discernment? Lol. But yeah, I've surveyed what can be found on Youtube (a lot of the symphonic works, at any rate) and walk away from each of them when tried with a ho-hum this music is banal and pretty damned boring feeling.
Clearly, he fully engages and entertains more than a little claque or cult of listeners... and that is, ultimately, what any art is for.
Best regards.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 08, 2017, 03:43:31 AM
If that were the case, I would not love at least half of the 20th century composers whose music I do love. I brought that up in the context of so many wildly praising -- in my perception, anyway -- just about anything 'symphony' to a point where I sense a bias for the form, or notion of it, that allows a suspension of rational critical faciliities ;-)
Gasp :o Do you mean to imply that a host of ardent Petterson fans are lacking in discernment? Lol. But yeah, I've surveyed what can be found on Youtube (a lot of the symphonic works, at any rate) and walk away from each of them when tried with a ho-hum this music is banal and pretty damned boring feeling.
Clearly, he fully engages and entertains more than a little claque or cult of listeners... and that is, ultimately, what any art is for.
Best regards.
Oh yes, there's plenty of Pettersson fans out there. There's one on Amazon who's a reviewer who's name slips me at the moment and basically anyone who criticizes Pettersson's music is an idiot. :) I guess I'm an idiot, because this composer is someone who I've put under the microscope to figure out what it is exactly I don't like about his music and the end result is always the same: he's a composer who seems hellbent on making us aware of his own suffering and misgivings, but the question I always have whenever I hear one of his works is: do I really care for what message Pettersson is trying to convey? The answer always ends up being the same: a resounding NO! :)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 08, 2017, 05:17:55 PM
(http://tiniglesias.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/stuck-in-a-maze-featured-image.jpg)
The Lady in the Labyrinth? Quite possibly a good title for one of your musical puzzle pieces, Alien. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 08, 2017, 04:49:31 PM
Oh yes, there's plenty of Pettersson fans out there. There's one on Amazon who's a reviewer who's name slips me at the moment and basically anyone who criticizes Pettersson's music is an idiot. :) I guess I'm an idiot, because this composer is someone who I've put under the microscope to figure out what it is exactly I don't like about his music and the end result is always the same: he's a composer who seems hellbent on making us aware of his own suffering and misgivings, but the question I always have whenever I hear one of his works is: do I really care for what message Pettersson is trying to convey? The answer always ends up being the same: a resounding NO! :)
I don't gauge, rate or go to or avoid music because of it's "emotional content or message."
The quote I use as my motto is for me a frank statement re: music and art in general...
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~Of course, I'm just one guy and this is one guy's opinion, but it could be measured as being even more damning that this composers music, technically, note content, as well as 'whatever else it imports,' flat out "does not express
anything to me," i.e. I find it devoid of interest in all of its aspects.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 08, 2017, 05:17:55 PM
(http://tiniglesias.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/stuck-in-a-maze-featured-image.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 08, 2017, 07:19:12 PM
The Lady in the Labyrinth? Quite possibly a good title for one of your musical puzzle pieces, Alien. 8)
or ~
Ariadne at Knossos(Labyrinths are a puzzle, ya know ;-)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 08, 2017, 07:19:12 PM
The Lady in the Labyrinth? Quite possibly a good title for one of your musical puzzle pieces, Alien. 8)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 09, 2017, 03:13:46 AM
I think you're onto something MI!! :o
a little nerd-out aside Re: Labyrinth and the etymology of the word "Clue."
clue
klo͞o
noun: clue; plural noun: clues
1.
a piece of evidence or information used in the detection of a crime or solving of a mystery.
"police officers are still searching for clues"
synonyms: hint, indication, sign, signal, pointer, trace, indicator; More
lead, tip, tipoff;
evidence, information
"give me just one clue"
a fact or idea that serves as a guide or aid in a task or problem.
"archaeological evidence can give clues about the past"
synonyms: hint, indication, sign, signal, pointer, trace, indicator; More
lead, tip, tipoff;
evidence, information
"give me just one clue"Origin;CLUE is variant of the late Middle English
clew, 'a ball of thread or yarn' ; hence one used to guide a person out of a labyrinth (literally or figuratively).
[The tangential bit that brings the labyrinth-solution weight of meaning in the first place (often not included in lesser tomes where this etymology is concerned):
it is a reference to the myth/history of ancient Greece and Crete -- at the Minoan Palace of Knossos, Ariadne gave Theseus, her lover, a ball of red thread, and Theseus unrolled it as he penetrated the labyrinth (where the Minotaur lived /was kept), which allowed him to find his way back out.]Sense 1 of the noun dates from the early 17th century.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 07, 2017, 07:45:43 PMbut recently I had a breakthrough with his 9th Symphony.
Excellent. The 9th, along with the 6th, is my favorite Pettersson. The 9th has haunting melodies, often coming out of nowhere to relieve the tension or conversely, add to the struggle between dark and light. I love the many militant episodes. Love the tango (Pettersson dancing in agony). And really love the melancholy string tune that ends with a beautiful Amen cadence, bringing the symphony to a conclusion.
Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 07, 2017, 09:28:22 PM
As I mentioned, only with Pettersson's 7th did I find the musical language appealing and appealing in a way that touched me. Everything else I've heard from him, which includes the rest of his symphonic cycle and the Violin Concerto No. 2, hasn't impressed me much at all. For me, a Mahler or a Shostakovich he'll never be, he's just not that good.
I'm actually surprised that you like
only the 7th. I think the symphonies that flank it (6 & 8 ) are greater achievements because of their more gripping dramatic structure. The 7th is like an experiment in "depressive minimalism" - lots of repetitive episodes, very effective in conveying a mood, but not really
going anywhere.
I still struggle with the later symphonies. I recently YouTube'd #13, the piece that put me off Pettersson for years. It's still as intractable and indigestible as ever.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 06:22:56 AM
Excellent. The 9th, along with the 6th, is my favorite Pettersson. The 9th has haunting melodies, often coming out of nowhere to relieve the tension or conversely, add to the struggle between dark and light. I love the many militant episodes. Love the tango (Pettersson dancing in agony). And really love the melancholy string tune that ends with a beautiful Amen cadence, bringing the symphony to a conclusion.
Sarge
Thanks for this comment. I've long hesitated over getting into the 9th due to its length and some negative comments I've read. Nice to see a different view. Any preferred recording?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 09, 2017, 07:59:40 AM
I still struggle with the later symphonies. I recently YouTube'd #13, the piece that put me off Pettersson for years. It's still as intractable and indigestible as ever.
That's the one I
really struggle with, too.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 09, 2017, 08:02:01 AM
Thanks for this comment. I've long hesitated over getting into the 9th due to its length and some negative comments I've read. Nice to see a different view. Any preferred recording?
I have Francis (CPO) and Lindberg (BIS). I like them both. In general, and I'm not sure I can explain this, Francis feels more modern, Lindberg more Romantic. While I have not done a direct comparison, Francis seems to provide greater contrast between sections and his recording is a bit clearer, instruments delineated more cleanly. For example, the tango rhythm is more noticeable in the CPO. I think Lindberg, though, gives a more moving account of the final pages, and most reviews I've seen favor him.
Sarge
Quote from: The new erato on April 09, 2017, 08:18:22 AM
That's the one I really struggle with, too.
It's not meant to be listened to regularly,... riiight??
Things like 13 are meant for catharsis... unless you're going through a gall stone per week, there's no reason to break out the 13th. It's there for THOSE moments... "break glass in case of emergency",... it's NOT a piece for "digesting" or enjoyment or any such thing.
IT IS.
It just IS.
BUUUT... all this talk of 13 makes me want to make a date... one can work up the lather to listen, takes time,... plan ahead,... no firearms or Jack Daniels or coke...good mood...
I mean, you're playing with fire here... don't get burned (turned off to AGP)...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 08:40:23 AM
I have Francis (CPO) and Lindberg (BIS). I like them both. In general, and I'm not sure I can explain this, Francis feels more modern, Lindberg more Romantic. While I have not done a direct comparison, Francis seems to provide greater contrast between sections and his recording is a bit clearer, instruments delineated more cleanly. For example, the tango rhythm is more noticeable in the CPO. I think Lindberg, though, gives a more moving account of the final pages, and most reviews I've seen favor him.
Sarge
Commissiona? gettin aroused already...
Quote from: snyprrr on April 09, 2017, 08:43:08 AM
Commissiona? gettin aroused already...
That's supposed to be the Holy Grail of P9s...but is it available on CD?
Sarge
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 09, 2017, 07:59:40 AM
I'm actually surprised that you like only the 7th. I think the symphonies that flank it (6 & 8 ) are greater achievements because of their more gripping dramatic structure. The 7th is like an experiment in "depressive minimalism" - lots of repetitive episodes, very effective in conveying a mood, but not really going anywhere.
I still struggle with the later symphonies. I recently YouTube'd #13, the piece that put me off Pettersson for years. It's still as intractable and indigestible as ever.
Well, I've never heard any Pettersson work that went anywhere, but the 7th, for me, has much more attractive qualities than any other of works. As I mentioned many times before, Pettersson is a composer that hasn't really done anything for me aside from this one symphony.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 08:46:10 AM
That's supposed to be the Holy Grail of P9s...but is it available on CD?
Sarge
I don't think so. It's one of several pioneering AP performances that has never been re-released.
From what I've read, it's much longer and slower than the 2 other recordings, and the orchestra was kinda flying by the seat of their pants for this one anyway. So it may not be very good.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 09, 2017, 11:41:30 AM
I don't think so. It's one of several pioneering AP performances that has never been re-released.
From what I've read, it's much longer and slower than the 2 other recordings, and the orchestra was kinda flying by the seat of their pants for this one anyway. So it may not be very good.
Yeah, Holy Grails often come tarnished ;)
I'm happy with the two Ninths I have.
Sarge
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 09, 2017, 11:41:30 AM
From what I've read, it's much longer and slower than the 2 other recordings, and the orchestra was kinda flying by the seat of their pants for this one anyway. So it may not be very good.
On the contrary. It makes the structures clearer, the themes more beautiful, and the symphony a much more movingly humane experience. Fundamentally different, for sure.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 09, 2017, 08:58:56 AM
Well, I've never heard any Pettersson work that went anywhere
That's a curious remark. Have you heard Petersson's Eleventh, for example? That work is a progression through several very distinct musical landscapes. Impressively, each different section flows seamlessly from the passage before it, leading me to rank it alongside great Nordic symphonies in the Sibelius – Holmboe – early Nørgård vein. Pettersson's music may be almost invariably dour in mood, but in terms of harmonic progression there is often a lot going on.
Hello Sarge,
You can a get a copy of the Comissiona here: http://www.haydnhouse.com/composer.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/composer.htm) along with Kamu's version of the 6th, which I highly recommend. There are a few others as well...
Paul
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 08:46:10 AM
That's supposed to be the Holy Grail of P9s...but is it available on CD?
Sarge
The Commissiona, Baltimore SO Symphony 8 incredibly on DGG, the Kamu No 6 on CBS and No.7, Dorati on Decca were great discoveries in my youth along with VC No.2.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2017, 11:44:43 PM
The Commissiona, Baltimore SO Symphony 8 incredibly on DGG, the Kamu No 6 on CBS and No.7, Dorati on Decca were great discoveries in my youth along with VC No.2.
I have all those on vinyl. Major influences.....
Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2017, 11:44:43 PM
The Commissiona, Baltimore SO Symphony 8 incredibly on DGG, the Kamu No 6 on CBS and No.7, Dorati on Decca were great discoveries in my youth along with VC No.2.
+1
Quote from: rw1883 on April 14, 2017, 10:45:55 PM
Hello Sarge,
You can a get a copy of the Comissiona here: http://www.haydnhouse.com/composer.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/composer.htm) along with Kamu's version of the 6th, which I highly recommend. There are a few others as well...
Paul
Thanks for the link.
Sarge
Quote from: CRCulver on April 10, 2017, 09:16:15 AM
Have you heard Petersson's Eleventh, for example?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21AWQGNJZ0L.jpg)
A number of folks here and elsewhere have praised this disc of AP's 10th and 11th symphonies. So I picked it up.
Wow, these are two of the most brutal pieces I've ever heard! In particular, the 10th sounds like the 2nd mvt. of Mahler 5, with the relaxed/slow parts stripped out and the remaining loud/angry bits stretched out to 25 minutes. And it's not just anger, there's plenty of despair in the second half. So he's got that covered as well.
The 11th starts out peacefully. You think it won't be quite as harsh, but then you are sucked into a vortex of constant storms and anger, only to be spit out 20 minutes later. The coda, where the music melts away like the Wicked Witch of the West, is perhaps the highlight.
This kind of music is like an addictive substance. At first it makes you sick, but pretty soon you're coming back for more.
QuoteWow, these are two of the most brutal pieces I've ever heard! In particular, the 10th sounds like the 2nd mvt. of Mahler 5, with the relaxed/slow parts stripped out and the remaining loud/angry bits stretched out to 25 minutes. And it's not just anger, there's plenty of despair in the second half. So he's got that covered as well.
The 11th starts out peacefully. You think it won't be quite as harsh, but then you are sucked into a vortex of constant storms and anger, only to be spit out 20 minutes later. The coda, where the music melts away like the Wicked Witch of the West, is perhaps the highlight.
This kind of music is like an addictive substance. At first it makes you sick, but pretty soon you're coming back for more.
I often listen to Pettersson symphonies whilst doing the shopping at our local supermarket, they are just the right length for getting there, selecting the week's supplies and then ending just before the checkout so I can talk normally to the checkout person.
The only problem I have with them is that Pettersson is vastly more optimistic and hopeful than I am. LOL :D
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 29, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21AWQGNJZ0L.jpg)
A number of folks here and elsewhere have praised this disc of AP's 10th and 11th symphonies. So I picked it up.
Wow, these are two of the most brutal pieces I've ever heard! In particular, the 10th sounds like the 2nd mvt. of Mahler 5, with the relaxed/slow parts stripped out and the remaining loud/angry bits stretched out to 25 minutes. And it's not just anger, there's plenty of despair in the second half. So he's got that covered as well.
The 11th starts out peacefully. You think it won't be quite as harsh, but then you are sucked into a vortex of constant storms and anger, only to be spit out 20 minutes later. The coda, where the music melts away like the Wicked Witch of the West, is perhaps the highlight.
This kind of music is like an addictive substance. At first it makes you sick, but pretty soon you're coming back for more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0fDzWbjjDA
Symphony 10, Dorati
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 01, 2017, 04:56:57 PM
The only problem I have with them is that Pettersson is vastly more optimistic and hopeful than I am. LOL :D
Yeah, his happyface, feelgood optimism grates after a while. Someone should have explained to him that life can be tough :laugh:
Quote from: The new erato on April 15, 2017, 01:27:43 AM
I have all those on vinyl. Major influences.....
Great recording!
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 02, 2017, 01:32:57 PM
Yeah, his happyface, feelgood optimism grates after a while. Someone should have explained to him that life can be tough :laugh:
Yes - some people just indulge in 'rampant self-pity'.
;D
Two recent Pettersson acquisitions
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91JUFW8E8TL._SY355_.jpg)
Curiosity got the better of me, and I managed to track down a copy of the Kamu recording of the 6th Symphony (CBS LP from 1976). This record has acquired a legendary reputation because it has never been reissued, but I managed to get it at a decent price from Discogs (copies on Amazon are going for $39 and up).
Naturally, when listening I was comparing it with the recent Lindberg recording, which got me listening to Pettersson again after avoiding him for years. On the whole, I think Lindberg wins on points. The orchestra plays better (things have obviously improved with that ensemble over the years), the sound is better, and Lindberg brings out more details while keeping things moving and goal-oriented. Curiously, although Lindberg is about 6 minutes slower than Kamu, I really didn't feel the difference, which is a point in Lindberg's favor I think.
But Kamu scores on certain other aspects. For one thing, the percussion really bites here (to the point of obliterating some other details), and very importantly, Kamu renders the big "lyrical island" at the end in a warmer, more expansive manner that feels like a blessed relief. Also, there's a greater sense of desperation and strain at some points in this older version, which I appreciate. In any case it's nice to have two different views of this great symphony.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412rXza9nfL._AC_US218_.jpg)
And here's another in Lindberg's series, the 14th Symphony. Comparing this to the Arnell version on CPO which I've had for a while, I find the Lindberg to be superior in every way. Sound is much more detailed, playing is more secure, interpretation is again notably slower than the competition, but with no loss of drama and a greater sense of structure and orientation towards a goal. There is also a lavish, luxurious sonic feeling here, the sort of thing one hears in early Schoenberg or late Mahler, which is only hinted at in the CPO recording. The 14th is the only of the later symphonies that repeatedly pulls me back, and this recording confirms that it's one of Pettersson's best overall.
I've been impressed enough by these Lindberg performances, I'm almost tempted to try his recording of the 13th (the piece I hated so much!) to see if I might like it better under his direction.
I cannot make heads or tails of the 13th in any version.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 25, 2018, 04:40:28 PM
Two recent Pettersson acquisitions
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91JUFW8E8TL._SY355_.jpg)
Curiosity got the better of me, and I managed to track down a copy of the Kamu recording of the 6th Symphony (CBS LP from 1976). This record has acquired a legendary reputation because it has never been reissued, but I managed to get it at a decent price from Discogs (copies on Amazon are going for $39 and up).
Naturally, when listening I was comparing it with the recent Lindberg recording, which got me listening to Pettersson again after avoiding him for years. On the whole, I think Lindberg wins on points. The orchestra plays better (things have obviously improved with that ensemble over the years), the sound is better, and Lindberg brings out more details while keeping things moving and goal-oriented. Curiously, although Lindberg is about 6 minutes slower than Kamu, I really didn't feel the difference, which is a point in Lindberg's favor I think.
But Kamu scores on certain other aspects. For one thing, the percussion really bites here (to the point of obliterating some other details), and very importantly, Kamu renders the big "lyrical island" at the end in a warmer, more expansive manner that feels like a blessed relief. Also, there's a greater sense of desperation and strain at some points in this older version, which I appreciate. In any case it's nice to have two different views of this great symphony.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412rXza9nfL._AC_US218_.jpg)
And here's another in Lindberg's series, the 14th Symphony. Comparing this to the Arnell version on CPO which I've had for a while, I find the Lindberg to be superior in every way. Sound is much more detailed, playing is more secure, interpretation is again notably slower than the competition, but with no loss of drama and a greater sense of structure and orientation towards a goal. There is also a lavish, luxurious sonic feeling here, the sort of thing one hears in early Schoenberg or late Mahler, which is only hinted at in the CPO recording. The 14th is the only of the later symphonies that repeatedly pulls me back, and this recording confirms that it's one of Pettersson's best overall.
I've been impressed enough by these Lindberg performances, I'm almost tempted to try his recording of the 13th (the piece I hated so much!) to see if I might like it better under his direction.
The Kamu LP was one of my introductions to Pettersson after Dorati's Decca LP of Symphony 7. Yes, 'the long struggle towards the sunrise' at the conclusion is especially morning in Kamu's recording of Symphony 6.
I have Kamu's 6th, Dorati's 7th and Commisiona's 8th on LP but haven't heard them for years having no LP player hooked up to the system. For decades they were my only Pettersson, together with Ida Handel's VC2. Valuable review of the Kamu, thanks.
I actually kind of liked the 13th? Does everyone hate it? Maybe not "liked" but when you're feeling incredibly sad and hopeless about the state of the world or your life or whatever it provides a really concentrated burst of fury and despair that's really cathartic somehow. Sort of the equivalent of listening to someone whom you agree with politically rant angrily about everything that's wrong with politics for an hour, which is a fairly popular genre of podcast these days >.>
The other music by Pettersson I have enjoyed includes the third concerto for strings, the 14th Symphony, and some of the chamber music..... haven't got on with the earlier symphonies but I only have the CPO set
Quote from: vandermolen on February 26, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
'the long struggle towards the sunrise'
I recognize this phrase from the (uncredited) liner notes. They are good old-fashioned extensive LP liner notes, full of musical examples that I can tap out on the piano. Strangely however, they don't mention the Barefoot Song the symphony is based on.
Also, the recording of the 14th comes with a really good 2-hour documentary on Pettersson, featuring interviews with the man himself late in life. (I watched the first half yesterday.) He comes across as irritable and self-centered, which is totally understandable given the crippling effects of arthritis which you can see here. But he also shows a sense of humor and whimsy which I did not expect to encounter in a composer of such notoriously gloomy music.
Quote from: amw on February 27, 2018, 05:25:24 AM
I actually kind of liked the 13th? Does everyone hate it? Maybe not "liked" but when you're feeling incredibly sad and hopeless about the state of the world or your life or whatever it provides a really concentrated burst of fury and despair that's really cathartic somehow. Sort of the equivalent of listening to someone whom you agree with politically rant angrily about everything that's wrong with politics for an hour, which is a fairly popular genre of podcast these days >.>
The other music by Pettersson I have enjoyed includes the third concerto for strings, the 14th Symphony, and some of the chamber music..... haven't got on with the earlier symphonies but I only have the CPO set
You don't like the 7th? That's strange as this is the only Pettersson symphony where I feel he's not just ranting on endlessly about how horrible his life is. There's actually moments in the 7th where he's expressing something that comes across as genuine and heartfelt. Everything that came before and after the 7th from him has been disappointing for me. His music just really bores the living hell out of me, but I give special acknowledgement to the 7th for the afore mentioned reasons.
Quote from: amw on February 27, 2018, 05:25:24 AM
I actually kind of liked the 13th? Does everyone hate it?
My problem with the 13th is the lack of balance. A symphony that is really angry and vicious all the way thru can work when it's short (see #10, which is c. 25 minutes long). But #13 just goes on and on with very little relief. Every once in a while I YouTube it, and after c. 10-15 minutes I just lose focus and switch it off.
I think the 14th works well because it's a mix of his gnarly late style with the more lyrical style of 6-8 (like #6, it is based on a Barefoot Song). But the 13th is nothing but that gnarly style, for a mind-melting almost 70 minutes!
Quote from: The new erato on February 27, 2018, 05:15:22 AM
I have Kamu's 6th, Dorati's 7th and Commisiona's 8th on LP but haven't heard them for years having no LP player hooked up to the system. For decades they were my only Pettersson, together with Ida Handel's VC2. Valuable review of the Kamu, thanks.
Those were my four classic LPs as well - all terrific.
I've only really appreciated symphonies 2,6,7,8 and to some extent No.9 but his VC No.2 is wonderful and deeply moving IMHO.
I been listening to the Concertos for Strings recently, haven't heard them too often before. It occurred to me that they are good way in to Pettersson's for those easily frightened, they are quite lyrical and lively and not that long, and yet they are echt Pettersson.
In the finale of no.2 there's a slow passage which sounds like it's on the verge of turning into Barber's Adagio for Strings, but doesn't. LOL
Writing about the 5th and 7th Symphony, I came across this hitherto unpublished review that's now up.
Dip Your Ears, No. 221 (Barefoot & Beautiful: Allan Pettersson's Music on BIS)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbaCeamW4AAdD_B.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/04/dip-your-ears-no-221-barefoot-beautiful.html)
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2017, 11:49:33 AM
The MusicWeb review states that 7 & 17 will be up next year.
Lindberg's 7 is now out, but it's coupled with 5, not 17. Here's a review:
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/petterssons-fifth-and-seventh-on-bis-again/
What do you folks think about the 5th? It doesn't seem to be considered one of his "core" pieces. I haven't listened to it all the way thru, but what I did hear was quite impressive in its forceful gloominess.
As for the 7th, I've still got the pioneering Dorati/Stockholm, and don't feel a need to get another version.
Hurwitz's review begins "We didn't really need this release. BIS has perfectly fine versions of these two symphonies already" - does he ever say that about the zillionth release of a Brahms or Mahler symphony?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 02, 2018, 06:18:05 AM
Lindberg's 7 is now out, but it's coupled with 5, not 17. Here's a review:
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/petterssons-fifth-and-seventh-on-bis-again/
What do you folks think about the 5th? It doesn't seem to be considered one of his "core" pieces. I haven't listened to it all the way thru, but what I did hear was quite impressive in its forceful gloominess.
As for the 7th, I've still got the pioneering Dorati/Stockholm, and don't feel a need to get another version.
Hurwitz's review begins "We didn't really need this release. BIS has perfectly fine versions of these two symphonies already" - does he ever say that about the zillionth release of a Brahms or Mahler symphony?
We totally need more recordings of rare repertoire! And this one is stunning. Wrote a review of it myself (but in German only, so far). Like the Fifth very nearly as much as the Seventh. It might well be considered part of core Pettersson.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 02, 2018, 06:29:40 AM
We totally need more recordings of rare repertoire! And this one is stunning.
Further to that thought, somebody posted on YouTube the CSO/Kojian performance of the 8th (from 1982) that I mentioned above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o2LEloGBAg&t=1953s
I think it's one of the best AP performances I've heard. (If the CSO were still issuing archival boxes, this is one performance that would deserve inclusion.)
If this keeps up I'm going to have to listen to m Petterson CDs again. >:(
I received this one today:
(http://musikverket.se/capricerecords/files/2012/11/21739_APettersson.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71YN9%2B9hosL._SL632_.jpg)
The musicians are barefoot... :)
Maybe some day a Pettersson integral set in a slimline box will materialize... ::)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 02, 2018, 01:10:54 PM
If this keeps up I'm going to have to listen to m Petterson CDs again. >:(
Stay clear of the razor blades when you do! :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2018, 07:00:46 PM
Stay clear of the razor blades when you do! :D
I will listen, remote in hand, finger on the eject button. :)
I never found Pettersson that depressing, but I haven't listened to many of the double digit symphonies except 15.
I was listening to my own rip of the Comissiona Lp of the 8th the other day. Still great. A mesmerizing performance of this work. I hope Lindberg can match or surpass it.
I have yet to compare Lindberg to the other recordings of 7 I have: Segerstam, Comissiona, Dorati. I think the music can take it!
Well, I went ahead and listened to the Concerto for Strings No 1, a piece I remember liking. Still like it, seems more mainstream than I remember it. The audio in the cpo recording a little too bright, but otherwise fine.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 02, 2018, 09:26:59 PM
I will listen, remote in hand, finger on the eject button. :)
Also, a viable alternative method. ;D
After finding the Concerto for String Orchestra No 1 moderately interesting, I went on to No 2, but it just seemed a bit boring. I decided to listen to a symphony instead and more-or-less randomly picked No 14. (I have about almost all of them on individual discs, mostly the cpo series, one BIS.) I figured I'd go for the extreme and pick a late symphony. This recording was the RSO Berlin with Johan Arnell on cpo.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616Moh5lgLL.jpg)
It more or less conformed to my stereotypical conception of Pettersson. A single movement lasting about 50 minutes, more or less constantly anguished. The coefficient of anguish certainly varied, so that there were passages which I could interpret as bordering on affirmative or tranquil, but never a movement of true joy or obvious repose. The orchestration was also somewhat unvarying. I was anticipating the ending, would it be a climax of horror, or of repose? It sort of got more intensely stressed, then sort of exhaled in a more relaxed place. Was it really necessary for it to go on for 50 minutes? Maybe.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 03, 2018, 11:23:26 PM
It more or less conformed to my stereotypical conception of Pettersson. A single movement lasting about 50 minutes, more or less constantly anguished. The coefficient of anguish certainly varied, so that there were passages which I could interpret as bordering on affirmative or tranquil, but never a movement of true joy or obvious repose. The orchestration was also somewhat unvarying. I was anticipating the ending, would it be a climax of horror, or of repose? It sort of got more intensely stressed, then sort of exhaled in a more relaxed place. Was it really necessary for it to go on for 50 minutes? Maybe.
That's the late symphony that I like, although I don't like it as much as syms. 6-8. Lindberg's recording is superior to the one on CPO; certainly he makes more sense of the structure.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 04, 2018, 05:45:13 AM
That's the late symphony that I like, although I don't like it as much as syms. 6-8. Lindberg's recording is superior to the one on CPO; certainly he makes more sense of the structure.
It certainly makes an impression. I don't see this as music I will be collecting multiple version of, though.
Went to look at a review of Pettersson symphony no 15 on Amazon, and there is the review by Paul Best complaining about GMG (from 2006). :)
This Paul Best guy seems to rate most things 1 star, and he hates the new Lindberg recordings on BIS. Oh well, I guess I'll stick with the CPO series. :)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 04, 2018, 02:03:39 PM
Went to look at a review of Pettersson symphony no 15 on Amazon, and there is the review by Paul Best complaining about GMG (from 2006). :)
This Paul Best guy seems to rate most things 1 star, and he hates the new Lindberg recordings on BIS. Oh well, I guess I'll stick with the CPO series. :)
We must have been out of bricks..... :P
I remember Paul quite well... Had sometimes singular views, would form opinions based on 30 second clips, something for which he got lots of flak. A very decent chap all the same. IIRC he lived in New Orleans at the time of hurricane Katrina.
He also felt that Sibelius went downhill after the Violin Concerto, which is an eccentricity, but not genuinely insane 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 05, 2018, 10:42:32 AM
He also felt that Sibelius went downhill after the Violin Concerto, which is an eccentricity, but not genuinely insane 8)
I'm not sure I can agree... :D
Quote from: André on June 04, 2018, 06:12:00 PM
I remember Paul quite well... Had sometimes singular views, would form opinions based on 30 second clips, something for which he got lots of flak. A very decent chap all the same. IIRC he lived in New Orleans at the time of hurricane Katrina.
My two favorite Paulbisms:
1. the claim "Russians do not listen to DSCH"
2. the only good Beethoven recording was "PC1/Helen Huang," i.e. an early, not quite mature piece played by a teenager.
Also, he had the "Royal Round Table," around which he would seat various composers in positions corresponding to his current preferences.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 05, 2018, 12:34:26 PM
My two favorite Paulbisms:
1. the claim "Russians do not listen to DSCH"
2. the only good Beethoven recording was "PC1/Helen Huang," i.e. an early, not quite mature piece played by a teenager.
Also, he had the "Royal Round Table," around which he would seat various composers in positions corresponding to his current preferences.
He's still reviewing on Amazon, so if you miss his quirky preference they are still available. :)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 05, 2018, 03:05:09 PM
He's still reviewing on Amazon, so if you miss his quirky preference they are still available. :)
What . . .
overall good news. I see he posted a review of cat food.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2018, 04:05:32 AM
What . . . overall good news. I see he posted a review of cat food.
but based on just a very small sample...
Little does he know that he is the subject of banter on GMG. Well, he can't register, so it is moot. >:(
Dip Your Ears, No. 224 (CD of the Month)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzW8xhaW0AE0mEu.jpg)
Among the eight monthly #CDReviews that Charles & I are now putting up on @ionarts again, we'll have a #CDofTheMonth every month, alternating between him & myself. This month, it's my turn with #AllanPettersson on #BISRecords
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2019/02/dip-your-ears-no-224-ionarts-cd-of.html ... (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2019/02/dip-your-ears-no-224-ionarts-cd-of.html)
Paul had no education of any kind that I could ever discern, yet believed himself a discriminating critic of all things (including music).
When it wasn't annoying, it was endearing.
Quote from: J on February 15, 2019, 07:51:22 AM
Paul had no education of any kind that I could ever discern. Yet he fancied himself a discriminating critic of all things (music included).
It was endearing.
As a source of entertaining opinions uninhibited by anything so vulgar as knowledge, Paulb had few rivals.
(https://img.discogs.com/zYA9E_MmHjLZv9rZBnq_BQWIUhU=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3307760-1325069120.jpeg.jpg)
These sonatas for two violins left me perplexed and a bit disturbed. It's impressive the emotional weight one feels on listening to this. Music that seems coming from the deepest parts of the human psyche, even they sound diabolical! Not only are the anguished sentiments they convey, but also the acrobacies and sonorities that two instruments can create. It's not straightforward music, but somehow I enjoyed this! Scary and fascinating. My favorites were the 5th and 6th.
Scary and fascinating indeed. Deeply ugly at times, they exert a kind of perverse appeal. The version I have is different, but I would imagine they are comparable.
Good to know that there are more people who enjoy these works. I suppose you, André, have the BIS recording which has other fillers, right?
Yes, with Duo Gelland. :)
I revisited Symphony No. 6, the only Pettersson work/disc I have. This Symphony is an one hour "block". The more beautiful latter half of it did impress me and I like it more than the first half. The second half of this Symphony made me interested to explore Pettersson further.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2020, 09:51:50 AM
I revisited Symphony No. 6, the only Pettersson work/disc I have. This Symphony is an one hour "block". The more beautiful latter half of it did impress me and I like it more than the first half. The second half of this Symphony made me interested to explore Pettersson further.
Then you should checkout his 7th symphony. This is the only work of his I actively like. You can keep the rest of it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2020, 10:14:41 AM
Then you should checkout his 7th symphony. This is the only work of his I actively like. You can keep the rest of it.
The only one you
actively like? Okay, I'll check it out, thanks! ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2020, 12:42:24 PM
The only one you actively like? Okay, I'll check it out, thanks! ;)
:) If you can find the recording for a good price, go with Segerstam on BIS.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2020, 10:14:41 AM
Then you should checkout his 7th symphony. This is the only work of his I actively like. You can keep the rest of it.
I actively like symphonies 2-11, the rest less so. Symphonies 6-8 are good entry points, but the 3rd Concerto for strings (with the magnificent
Mesto movement) and 2nd concerto for violin are on the same level.
Quote from: André on January 15, 2020, 01:17:56 PM
I actively like symphonies 2-11, the rest less so. Symphonies 6-8 are good entry points, but the 3rd Concerto for strings (with the magnificent Mesto movement) and 2nd concerto for violin are on the same level.
I like music that is darkly tinged hence why Britten, Schnittke or Lutoslawski appeal to me so much, but their music isn't completely shrouded in darkness. Also, Pettersson's writing style is rather relentless as there's no variety in it --- it's one constant phrase that develops until the point of where I'm thinking "Okay, Pettersson you've developed that bit as much as you could now move on!" :) Anyway, his idiom is one that I don't find as attractive now as I did when I first discovered him and even then I approached him with a good bit of caution.
Quote from: André on January 15, 2020, 01:17:56 PM
I actively like symphonies 2-11, the rest less so. Symphonies 6-8 are good entry points, but the 3rd Concerto for strings (with the magnificent Mesto movement) and 2nd concerto for violin are on the same level.
6-8 are my favourites and the magnificent VC No.2. I have a friend who rates Symphony No.4 very highly.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2020, 12:56:26 PM
:) If you can find the recording for a good price, go with Segerstam on BIS.
If you can find it, go with Dorati
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ozIIuSuHL._AC_.jpg)
(also intermittently available on CD)
I'm sure I've said this before on this thread but with Pettersson I prefer the later symphonies. My reason is that if you are going to experience the dark night of the soul with Mr P then it might as well be as dark as possible.
Quote from: aukhawk on January 16, 2020, 04:23:06 AM
If you can find it, go with Dorati
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ozIIuSuHL._AC_.jpg)
(also intermittently available on CD)
Not for me. Segerstam finds all sorts of nuances in the music that Dorati misses and the slower sections don't have the same kind of emotional weight under his baton.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2020, 06:34:38 PM
Not for me. Segerstam finds all sorts of nuances in the music that Dorati misses and the slower sections don't have the same kind of emotional weight under his baton.
I like both performances. The Dorati is special to me as it was my first encounter with the work, taken out of the local record library on LP. I much preferred the LP cover of that original Decca release rather than the rather insipid one which came out later (posted above):
(//)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2020, 12:56:26 PM
:) If you can find the recording for a good price, go with Segerstam on BIS.
Good price and BIS rarely go hand in hand but one can try, thanks!
How is the Christian Lindberg on BIS? It is a new SACD so sonics should be superior to Segerstam... ::)
Quote from: 71 dB on January 17, 2020, 02:41:08 AM
Good price and BIS rarely go hand in hand but one can try, thanks!
How is the Christian Lindberg on BIS? It is a new SACD so sonics should be superior to Segerstam... ::)
Ain't that the truth. One of the barriers between me and Pettersson's music. ;D
I've listened to the 7th symphony and rather enjoyed it. But this is music that requires multiple listens, I think, to get everything out of it.
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 17, 2020, 03:00:51 AM
Ain't that the truth. One of the barriers between me and Pettersson's music. ;D
I don't have as much BIS in my collection I'd like to have. Collecting all 55 discs of Bach's church cantatas by Suzuki was two decades worth of financial burden and now I have the secular cantatas to get (nice box just released) ;D
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 17, 2020, 03:00:51 AMI've listened to the 7th symphony and rather enjoyed it. But this is music that requires multiple listens, I think, to get everything out of it.
I suppose. The first time I listened to Pettersson's sixth Symphony I get hardly anything out of it and it didn't help it's an hours long one movement, a big block. The second time I now revisited it I quite liked the latter half. in time I may learn to appreciate Pettersson's darkness even more... :P
Quote from: 71 dB on January 17, 2020, 03:56:43 AM
I don't have as much BIS in my collection I'd like to have. Collecting all 55 discs of Bach's church cantatas by Suzuki was two decades worth of financial burden and now I have the secular cantatas to get (nice box just released) ;D
I suppose. The first time I listened to Pettersson's sixth Symphony I get hardly anything out of it and it didn't help it's an hours long one movement, a big block. The second time I now revisited it I quite liked the latter half. in time I may learn to appreciate Pettersson's darkness even more... :P
You will, I'm sure. You have the right attitude: time and patience are of the essence with this composer :).
Quote from: vandermolen on January 16, 2020, 10:20:43 PM
I like both performances. The Dorati is special to me as it was my first encounter with the work, taken out of the local record library on LP. I much preferred the LP cover of that original Decca release rather than the rather insipid one which came out later (posted above):
I prefer the Dorati, it's more intense. Segerstam is good though.
I wouldn't call the Swedish cover insipid, it's a rather nice pic of Stockholm. But I remember when I bought that LP ages ago, as a "special import," it smelled funny - unlike any other vinyl I had ever smelled.
No love for Comissiona in the 7th?
https://www.youtube.com/v/UxQyUzOXPiY
I was listening to my own needle drop of his 8th (DG Lp) last night. Almost seems like light Pettersson now. 8)
One among several YT transfers:
https://www.youtube.com/v/DUcn1Lny1BY
Quote from: 71 dB on January 17, 2020, 02:41:08 AM
Good price and BIS rarely go hand in hand but one can try, thanks!
How is the Christian Lindberg on BIS? It is a new SACD so sonics should be superior to Segerstam... ::)
Honestly, I haven't been too impressed with any of Lindberg's Pettersson recordings. Yes, the sonics are fantastic, but the performances are missing something. Get the Segerstam and there's absolutely nothing remotely poor about the audio quality in his recording.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 17, 2020, 08:26:46 AM
I prefer the Dorati, it's more intense. Segerstam is good though.
I wouldn't call the Swedish cover insipid, it's a rather nice pic of Stockholm. But I remember when I bought that LP ages ago, as a "special import," it smelled funny - unlike any other vinyl I had ever smelled.
Sorry about the Stockholm comment - especially as my brother-in-law and his family live there. It is a most beautiful city, as I discovered on my visit in 2013. Arriving on the overnight ferry from Helsinki was very special. I'll make sure to have a sniff of the Dorati vinyl when I next come across it.
:)
Quote from: Daverz on January 17, 2020, 11:24:53 AM
No love for Comissiona in the 7th?
https://www.youtube.com/v/UxQyUzOXPiY
I was listening to my own needle drop of his 8th (DG Lp) last night. Almost seems like light Pettersson now. 8)
One among several YT transfers:
https://www.youtube.com/v/DUcn1Lny1BY
I like Comissiona's performance of 7 (incongruously coupled with Mozart) on CD and No.8 on my old DGG LP.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 18, 2020, 07:33:55 PM
Honestly, I haven't been too impressed with any of Lindberg's Pettersson recordings. Yes, the sonics are fantastic, but the performances are missing something. Get the Segerstam and there's absolutely nothing remotely poor about the audio quality in his recording.
Thanks for this info. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 18, 2020, 07:33:55 PM
Honestly, I haven't been too impressed with any of Lindberg's Pettersson recordings. Yes, the sonics are fantastic, but the performances are missing something.
I disagree with this. I have Lindberg in 6 and 14. On the whole I prefer his 6 to the old Kamu, although Kamu is superior in some details. I find Lindberg's 14 vastly superior to the other one I've heard (on CPO).
I'm fond of Kamu's old CBS LP of Symphony No.6 and wish it was on CD. I find 'the long struggle towards the sunrise' at the end of the work (as the sleeve-note puts it) very affecting in that performance:
(//)
Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2020, 03:53:08 AM
Thanks for this info. ;)
I wouldn't call it info, more an opinion. Pettersson like all composers are open to a variety of interpretations, and withe the scarcity of available recordings, Lindberg's are a valuable addition. I find his smallerscale approach and superb acoustics to bring new and vaulable insights to some of the works.
I wish Kamu's 6th and Commisiona's 8th were available on CD as well. I have the LPs of course.
Quote from: The new erato on January 20, 2020, 04:44:55 AM
I wouldn't call it info, more an opinion. Pettersson like all composers are open to a variety of interpretations, and withe the scarcity of available recordings, Lindberg's are a valuable addition. I find his smallerscale approach and superb acoustics to bring new and vaulable insights to some of the works.
I wish Kamu's 6th and Commisiona's 8th were available on CD as well. I have the LPs of course.
I'll try to listen to these performances on Spotify or so and see if I even like the work and which performance I like the best before paying the big money for the CD... :P
Now I have listened to Segerstam's take on #7 on Spotify and do like the Symphony!
Even the sound quality seems very good. So, looks like this is a disc to get.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 22, 2020, 08:09:00 AM
Now I have listened to Segerstam's take on #7 on Spotify and do like the Symphony!
Even the sound quality seems very good. So, looks like this is a disc to get.
I hate to say it, but I told ya so! :P Glad you enjoyed this recording.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2020, 08:10:09 AM
I hate to say it, but I told ya so! :P Glad you enjoyed this recording.
I hate to say it, but you loved to say it. ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on January 22, 2020, 09:38:28 AM
I hate to say it, but you loved to say it. ;D
Yes, indeed. :D
Following discussions here I'm now on my second listen through to this recording of Symphony No.7. It conveys a real sense of Odyssey:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on January 20, 2020, 12:10:15 AM
I'm fond of Kamu's old CBS LP of Symphony No.6 and wish it was on CD. I find 'the long struggle towards the sunrise' at the end of the work (as the sleeve-note puts it) very affecting in that performance:
(//)
The Pettersson 6 (Kamu), 8 (Comissiona), and 10 (Dorati) can be found here: https://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm (https://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm). The 9th (Comissiona) is coupled with Symphony No. 6. Really good transfers!
Quote from: vandermolen on January 23, 2020, 01:27:38 PM
Following discussions here I'm now on my second listen through to this recording of Symphony No.7. It conveys a real sense of Odyssey:
This would be my top choice as well, with Comissiona second, but I admit I haven't compared with Dorati or Segerstam. There's also Albrecht on Qobuz.
Changing gears, there's a new recording of Vox Humana on CPO:
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/761203928620.jpg?1577705964)
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8683865--allan-pettersson-vox-humana-6-sanger
Quote from: rw1883 on January 23, 2020, 06:51:53 PM
The Pettersson 6 (Kamu), 8 (Comissiona), and 10 (Dorati) can be found here: https://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm (https://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm). The 9th (Comissiona) is coupled with Symphony No. 6. Really good transfers!
Thank you!
Quote from: Daverz on January 23, 2020, 09:04:10 PM
This would be my top choice as well, with Comissiona second, but I admit I haven't compared with Dorati or Segerstam. There's also Albrecht on Qobuz.
Changing gears, there's a new recording of Vox Humana on CPO:
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/761203928620.jpg?1577705964)
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8683865--allan-pettersson-vox-humana-6-sanger
The Dorati is very special. Maybe because it was my first encounter with the work on a Decca LP. I also like the Segerstam recording.
Quote from: Daverz on January 23, 2020, 09:04:10 PM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/761203928620.jpg?1577705964)
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8683865--allan-pettersson-vox-humana-6-sanger
A beautiful disc, featuring attractive solo voices and a fine smallish chorus. Our Morbid Mr. Pettersson only really shows up in the last movement of Vox Humana, and the songs are beautifully sung by Jakob Höström.
I can't find the Segerstam 7 for the price I am willing to pay so that's that. It's insane what they ask on eBay, like $30 with shipping. Good deals on eBay are very rare when it comes to CDs. If you are ok paying $30 for a CD than eBay is a cool place to make discoveries, but I am not. Amazon has the CD much cheaper, but not cheap enough.
What is wrong wth europadiscs GBP 7,86?
https://www.europadisc.co.uk/search/europadisc_results.htm (https://www.europadisc.co.uk/search/europadisc_results.htm)
Do you absolutely need to buy from the (in my opinion) rather suspect Amazon?
Quote from: Daverz on January 23, 2020, 10:28:57 PM
A beautiful disc, featuring attractive solo voices and a fine smallish chorus. Our Morbid Mr. Pettersson only really shows up in the last movement of Vox Humana, and the songs are beautifully sung by Jakob Höström.
Maybe I should try this version. The one on BIS leaves me indifferent.
Quote from: The new erato on January 24, 2020, 07:01:10 AM
What is wrong wth europadiscs GBP 7,86?
https://www.europadisc.co.uk/search/europadisc_results.htm (https://www.europadisc.co.uk/search/europadisc_results.htm)
Do you absolutely need to buy from the (in my opinion) rather suspect Amazon?
Thanks for the tip!
I have never bought anything from there. To me it shows price £9.41. Postage seems to be £2.00. So, that's £11.41 total = 13.70 €.
That's pretty much where my limit is, around 13-14 euros.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 24, 2020, 10:26:12 AM
Thanks for the tip!
I have never bought anything from there. To me it shows price £9.41. Postage seems to be £2.00. So, that's £11.41 total = 13.70 €.
That's pretty much where my limit is, around 13-14 euros.
The discogs website has it for £9.12 but you'd still have to pay the postage charge to Finland.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 24, 2020, 10:26:12 AM
Thanks for the tip!
I have never bought anything from there. To me it shows price £9.41. Postage seems to be £2.00. So, that's £11.41 total = 13.70 €.
That's pretty much where my limit is, around 13-14 euros.
6 or 7 US $ from eclassical.com for a flac or mp3 download - that's if you don't want/need the shiny piece of plastic.
I really want to make a start on these symphonies. Now if I were to simply ask for a good starting point, I know exactly what answer I would get. So I want a different answer. Assume I already have No. 7. What would be the next most-approachable (relatively speaking) of Pettersson's symphonies?
Its proximate neighbours, nos 6 and 8.
Quote from: André on March 02, 2020, 07:31:17 AM
Its proximate neighbours, nos 6 and 8.
Yes, André is right! :)
Also, you have to hear VC No.2 IMO one of the greatest ever written.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 02, 2020, 08:31:10 AM
Yes, André is right! :)
Also, you have to hear VC No.2 IMO one of the greatest ever written.
Yes, you can listen to any recording (there's 3) as long as it contains Blomstedt/Handel. Persevere - the last 15 minutes are transcendental.
Quote from: The new erato on March 02, 2020, 01:06:08 PM
Yes, you can listen to any recording (there's 3) as long as it contains Blomstedt/Handel. Persevere - the last 15 minutes are transcendental.
+2 !
Quote from: The new erato on March 02, 2020, 01:06:08 PM
Yes, you can listen to any recording (there's 3) as long as it contains Blomstedt/Handel. Persevere - the last 15 minutes are transcendental.
+3
It looks lengthy. Must be one of the longest violin concertos out there. The recording I saw was 55 minutes. My recordings of Reger's concerto is 57, so it's definitely up there.
Also, something else I learnt was that the Violin Concerto No. 1 is only scored for violin and string quartet, so that makes No. 2 the only traditional concerto.
It's still on sale at JPC:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Allan-Pettersson-1911-1980-Violinkonzert-Nr-2/hnum/5163784 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Allan-Pettersson-1911-1980-Violinkonzert-Nr-2/hnum/5163784)
Quote from: André on March 03, 2020, 04:51:25 AM
It's still on sale at JPC:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Allan-Pettersson-1911-1980-Violinkonzert-Nr-2/hnum/5163784 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Allan-Pettersson-1911-1980-Violinkonzert-Nr-2/hnum/5163784)
That looks v good value.
I ordered Symphony No. 6 a few days ago. I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow. But I'm finally starting on my Pettersson journey.
Something of a convenience is that I've worked out in many cases (not all) I can kill multiple birds with one stone by alternating the older BIS recordings and the CPO ones. And yes, I know there is a newer cycle on BIS, but for some reason my computer (the most convenient "CD player" I have) won't play SACDs anymore, so I'm avoiding SACDs like the plague. Anyway, 7/11 and 8/10 are paired together on older BIS discs, meaning I can pick them up that way and go CPO the rest of the way. Although if I wanted the Viola Concerto, I'd have to double up on No. 5 in order to get No. 16 on CPO.
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 06, 2020, 11:00:21 AM
I ordered Symphony No. 6 a few days ago. I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow. But I'm finally starting on my Pettersson journey.
Something of a convenience is that I've worked out in many cases (not all) I can kill multiple birds with one stone by alternating the older BIS recordings and the CPO ones. And yes, I know there is a newer cycle on BIS, but for some reason my computer (the most convenient "CD player" I have) won't play SACDs anymore, so I'm avoiding SACDs like the plague. Anyway, 7/11 and 8/10 are paired together on older BIS discs, meaning I can pick them up that way and go CPO the rest of the way. Although if I wanted the Viola Concerto, I'd have to double up on No. 5 in order to get No. 16 on CPO.
That's strange because all of the BIS SACDs I own are Hybrid SACDs and have no problems playing in any CD player since they have a CD layer. It might be time to invest in a new CD player for your computer or buy an external one for it that will play them.
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 06, 2020, 11:00:21 AM
I ordered Symphony No. 6 a few days ago. I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow. But I'm finally starting on my Pettersson journey.
Something of a convenience is that I've worked out in many cases (not all) I can kill multiple birds with one stone by alternating the older BIS recordings and the CPO ones. And yes, I know there is a newer cycle on BIS, but for some reason my computer (the most convenient "CD player" I have) won't play SACDs anymore, so I'm avoiding SACDs like the plague. Anyway, 7/11 and 8/10 are paired together on older BIS discs, meaning I can pick them up that way and go CPO the rest of the way. Although if I wanted the Viola Concerto, I'd have to double up on No. 5 in order to get No. 16 on CPO.
Symphony No.6 is my second favourite after No.7. As it says in the sleeve note to my fine old Okko Kamu LP recording on CBS ( never on CD >:D) it features 'the long struggle towards the sunrise'. Hope you enjoy it too.
Well, the disc has come (Trojahn/CPO), but there are blank pages in the English section of the liner notes. Anyone else have this or is it just this copy?
The Chandos website, which has the CPO discs on it, occasionally does PDF files of the booklets, but it hasn't done one for this No. 6. My only option is to type each paragraph individually into google translate to get some semblance of the notes. It was already going to be a struggle to get to grips with a one-track, hour-long symphony by a difficult composer, but now it's going to be nigh-on impossible.
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 07, 2020, 02:18:07 AM
Well, the disc has come (Trojahn/CPO), but there are blank pages in the English section of the liner notes. Anyone else have this or is it just this copy?
The Chandos website, which has the CPO discs on it, occasionally does PDF files of the booklets, but it hasn't done one for this No. 6. My only option is to type each paragraph individually into google translate to get some semblance of the notes. It was already going to be a struggle to get to grips with a one-track, hour-long symphony by a difficult composer, but now it's going to be nigh-on impossible.
How very annoying. Why not contact CPO about it.
Would they care about a second-hand copy of a 27-year-old recording?
Your bottle at sea might fall into the hands of a Pettersson enthusiast who will take your query to heart. Chances are probably around 0.0001%, but hey, why not give it a try? 0:)
Listening to No. 6 for a second time. I think I've established that the coda is astonishingly long! Like, more than half the length of the entire symphony. Possibly starting when the brass comes in with a chorale-like section around 24 minutes in. If not then, then certainly shortly after that. From then on, there's this long unwinding theme with almost continuous "under-activity" from the percussion, never really obtrusive, just...there. And the repeating semitone that to me sounds like breathing.
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 09, 2020, 04:25:22 AM
Listening to No. 6 for a second time. I think I've established that the coda is astonishingly long! Like, more than half the length of the entire symphony. Possibly starting when the brass comes in with a chorale-like section around 24 minutes in. If not then, then certainly shortly after that. From then on, there's this long unwinding theme with almost continuous "under-activity" from the percussion, never really obtrusive, just...there. And the repeating semitone that to me sounds like breathing.
Ah yes, 'the long struggle towards the sunrise'.
That's a great way to describe it. Although I'm personally not sure if we reach sunrise at the end, as it's in the minor key. Unless of course it's sunrise ahead of another day of struggle, of course.
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 09, 2020, 04:59:43 AM
That's a great way to describe it. Although I'm personally not sure if we reach sunrise at the end, as it's in the minor key. Unless of course it's sunrise ahead of another day of struggle, of course.
I'd like you to think that I'd come up with the quote myself, however it appears in the sleeve notes to my LP of Okko Kamu's recording on CBS. I like the quote and think it's appropriate for that symphony. I find the ending of the symphony very moving, although devoid of sentimentality - representing a kind of dogged determination and perseverance through struggle.
Yeah, it is a fine symphony, with a moving ending. I'm just coming to terms with the idea that a coda can be c. 35 minutes long. I know of other movements where the coda/epilogue takes up a significant amount of the movement, but nothing on this scale. It's one of those where I have to just let the music wash over me. A yet further fascinating part of the kaleidoscope that is 20th century symphonic music.
Ordered my next Pettersson disc, the BIS recording of Symphony No. 5 and the Viola Concerto.
Heads up, Petterssonites! The Hurwitzer has posted a new video:
https://www.youtube.com/v/XvuICzVQnAw
I still believe that Pettersson's best symphonies are the 6th, 7th and 8th. I can't really recommend any of the others. I do like the Violin Concerto No. 2 or, at least, the ending where it quotes one of his Barefoot Songs. That's really well-done, but I think a huge part of my own problem with Pettersson's music is what I have to go through just to get to that particular beautiful section. The whole rhythmic element that I love in symphonic music is almost absent in his music. It sounds like one giant mass going into a different giant mass with no kind of counterpoint or development. It's rather strenuous listening to most of Pettersson's music. He reminds me of Penderecki's post-experimental music --- foreboding, uncompromising and completely devoid of any color. I like darker music, don't get me wrong, but when there's no kind of lyricism to be found, I get bored and simply can't connect with the music. A work like William Schuman's 9th symphony is a case in point, it's dark, it's foreboding BUT there's a lyrical quality within the music that I can latch onto.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2020, 07:44:04 AM
Heads up, Petterssonites! The Hurwitzer has posted a new video:
https://www.youtube.com/v/XvuICzVQnAw
I still believe that Pettersson's best symphonies are the 6th, 7th and 8th. I can't really recommend any of the others. I do like the Violin Concerto No. 2 or, at least, the ending where it quotes one of his Barefoot Songs. That's really well-done, but I think a huge part of my own problem with Pettersson's music is what I have to go through just to get to that particular beautiful section. The whole rhythmic element that I love in symphonic music is almost absent in his music. It sounds like one giant mass going into a different giant mass with no kind of counterpoint or development. It's rather strenuous listening to most of Pettersson's music. He reminds me of Penderecki's post-experimental music --- foreboding, uncompromising and completely devoid of any color. I like darker music, don't get me wrong, but when there's no kind of lyricism to be found, I get bored and simply can't connect with the music. A work like William Schuman's 9th symphony is a case in point, it's dark, it's foreboding BUT there's a lyrical quality within the music that I can latch onto.
I largely agree with this John. The thing about Symphony No.6 is that the noble theme at the end puts a kind of retrospective glow on the earlier material and much the same IMO can be said of VC No.2. Symphony 7, however, is searchingly eloquent all the way through. The end of Symphony No.6 reminds me a bit of Nielsen in the way that the side drums (I think) in the background may represent a disruptive force (although they are nothing like as anarchic as at the end of the first movement of Nielsen's 5th Symphony) but the noble theme persevere through 'the long struggle to the sunrise' - I find it very moving - one of my favourite 20th Century symphony endings.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 18, 2020, 08:56:12 AM
I largely agree with this John. The thing about Symphony No.6 is that the noble theme at the end puts a kind of retrospective glow on the earlier material and much the same IMO can be said of VC No.2. Symphony 7, however, is searchingly eloquent all the way through. The end of Symphony No.6 reminds me a bit of Nielsen in the way that the side drums (I think) in the background may represent a disruptive force (although they are nothing like as anarchic as at the end of the first movement of Nielsen's 5th Symphony) but the noble theme persevere through 'the long struggle to the sunrise' - I find it very moving - one of my favourite 20th Century symphony endings.
Yes, as I mentioned, the 6th through 8th are very strong musically and I can't fault these particular symphonies as lacking in lyricism because there's much beauty to be found here. But I find that with so much of his music, the journey to get to those beautiful moments aren't really fulfilling to me. They just seem like empty rhetoric and there's not enough variety in the writing to make me appreciate the aural journey, but those afore mentioned symphonies are the notable exceptions.
I've no idea who this reviewer guy is, but I don't like his delivery. Starts off like a friggin' counselling session. And then disses one of the greatest pop bands in history.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 18, 2020, 09:39:26 AM
I've no idea who this reviewer guy is, but I don't like his delivery. Starts off like a friggin' counselling session. And then disses one of the greatest pop bands in history.
The reviewer in question would be David Hurwitz mogul of ClassicsToday. I'm sure you know or have seen this site before:
https://www.classicstoday.com/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/)
I don't like him either and never have liked him. I think he's typical of most critics in that their opinion is somehow above all others. The only reviewer that's worth reading on ClassicsToday is Jens Laurson and he hasn't been reviewing for them for too long.
I'd include at least the 9th Symphony in the Pettersson core symphonies, but because of the old Comissiona LP version, much slower, lyrical and elegiac, than the more recent CPO and BIS recordings. They make the work appear different, hurricane-like, and stressful.
Cudos for Hurwitz' attempt at Pettersson promotion, his enthusiasm and general showmanship. I was surprised to see his jolly appearance on video, compared to the rather stern intellectualness in his CT reviews, which I'd occasionally read at our local library many years ago. The problem with reviewers today often isn't intolerance, it's over-tolerance and the 'everything currently being promoted is also good', combined with a lack of knowledge of recordings from earlier decades. This guy at least often knows a lot of classics and a wide range of recordings. Needless perhaps to tell, I often tended to agree with his views & liked the critical style, but there were also cases, when I disagreed strongly & wondered if he was actually writing about the same recording I knew ...
However, he obviously has his limits as regards Pettersson - he is even unsure if the composer wrote 11 or 13 symphonies, when in reality there are 16 1/2; says the 8th Symphony lasts 46 minutes, but that is due to the faster Segerstam recording, where the others are a good deal longer; yet promotes Segerstam's as the best version (where I'd certainly disagree), and says that the 2 movements of the 8th are similar, when in fact they are quite different; etc.
Further, he places Abba in the 60s, and his entertaining story about Pettersson really suffering from being forced to listen to Swedish rock perpetually, I personally haven't noticed before. But his pronounciation of Norrkoping is OK, and it's good to hear a little playing down of Pettersson's too often repeated, allegedly all-consuming Misery.
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 18, 2020, 11:44:36 AM
I'd include at least the 9th Symphony in the Pettersson core symphonies, but because of the old Comissiona LP version, much slower, lyrical and elegiac, than the more recent CPO and BIS recordings. They make the work appear different, hurricane-like, and stressful.
Cudos for Hurwitz' attempt at Pettersson promotion, his enthusiasm and general showmanship. I was surprised to see his jolly appearance on video, compared to the rather stern intellectualness in his CT reviews, which I'd occasionally read at our local library many years ago. The problem with reviewers today often isn't intolerance, it's over-tolerance and the 'everything currently being promoted is also good', combined with a lack of knowledge of recordings from earlier decades. This guy at least often knows a lot of classics and a wide range of recordings. Needless perhaps to tell, I often tended to agree with his views & liked the critical style, but there were also cases, when I disagreed strongly & wondered if he was actually writing about the same recording I knew ...
However, he obviously has his limits as regards Pettersson - he is even unsure if the composer wrote 11 or 13 symphonies, when in reality there are 16 1/2; says the 8th Symphony lasts 46 minutes, but that is due to the faster Segerstam recording, where the others are a good deal longer; yet promotes Segerstam's as the best version (where I'd certainly disagree), and says that the 2 movements of the 8th are similar, when in fact they are quite different; etc.
Further, he places Abba in the 60s, and his entertaining story about Pettersson really suffering from being forced to listen to Swedish rock perpetually, I personally haven't noticed before. But his pronounciation of Norrkoping is OK, and it's good to hear a little playing down of Pettersson's too often repeated, allegedly all-consuming Misery.
Very interesting. I can't imagine Pettersson listening to Abba! I'd love to hear Comissiona version of No.9 as I greatly admire his DGG LP of Symphony No.8.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 18, 2020, 12:14:22 PM
Very interesting. I can't imagine Pettersson listening to Abba! I'd love to hear Comissiona version of No.9 as I greatly admire his DGG LP of Symphony No.8.
Comissiona is an outstanding conductor and I have him in Pettersson's 7th and it's a very good performance. It'd be nice if some enterprising label would buy the rights to those Comissiona performances, remaster them, and issue them on CD. But I won't hold my breath here! ;)
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 18, 2020, 11:44:36 AM
However, he obviously has his limits as regards Pettersson - he is even unsure if the composer wrote 11 or 13 symphonies, when in reality there are 16 1/2; says the 8th Symphony lasts 46 minutes, but that is due to the faster Segerstam recording, where the others are a good deal longer; yet promotes Segerstam's as the best version (where I'd certainly disagree), and says that the 2 movements of the 8th are similar, when in fact they are quite different; etc.
All good points. BTW which do you think is the best version?
QuoteFurther, he places Abba in the 60s, and his entertaining story about Pettersson really suffering from being forced to listen to Swedish rock perpetually, I personally haven't noticed before.
I'd read this before, but in only one source: the liner notes for the CPO recording of the 13th Symphony. But I hated that symphony, so I don't have those notes anymore!
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2020, 07:44:04 AM
Heads up, Petterssonites! The Hurwitzer has posted a new video:
https://www.youtube.com/v/XvuICzVQnAw
I still believe that Pettersson's best symphonies are the 6th, 7th and 8th. I can't really recommend any of the others. I do like the Violin Concerto No. 2 or, at least, the ending where it quotes one of his Barefoot Songs. That's really well-done, but I think a huge part of my own problem with Pettersson's music is what I have to go through just to get to that particular beautiful section. The whole rhythmic element that I love in symphonic music is almost absent in his music. It sounds like one giant mass going into a different giant mass with no kind of counterpoint or development. It's rather strenuous listening to most of Pettersson's music. He reminds me of Penderecki's post-experimental music --- foreboding, uncompromising and completely devoid of any color. I like darker music, don't get me wrong, but when there's no kind of lyricism to be found, I get bored and simply can't connect with the music. A work like William Schuman's 9th symphony is a case in point, it's dark, it's foreboding BUT there's a lyrical quality within the music that I can latch onto.
The video is hilarious but also insightful - really enjoyed listening to it. I agree with his positive view of Segerstam's Pettersson recordings.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 18, 2020, 12:32:09 PM
The video is hilarious but also insightful - really enjoyed listening to it. I agree with his positive view of Segerstam's Pettersson recordings.
I have to agree with Hurwitz, too. I like the Segerstam recordings a lot and wished he actually had took up the Pettersson mantle instead of Lindberg whose conducting I'm not fond of at all. I also believe that CPO has the better cycle overall compared to what Lindberg has done.
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread -
QuoteQuote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2020, 01:48:43 PM
NP: The 9th -
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NjEwNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
Well, I didn't even make it to the 30 minute mark of this symphony without wanting to punch a wall...yes, it was that infuriating. As I mentioned in the Pettersson thread, I believe that his best works are the 6th, 7th and 8th symphonies. I will say that I could never count Pettersson amongst my favorite composers, because there's just not enough written from this composer that I enjoy, but that being said, I do believe the afore mentioned works are stunning and have each affected me in different ways and I do enjoy them whenever I revisit them on occasion.
Speaking of the 8th, now playing:
(https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h6895/4446895-origpic-ce638f.jpg)
The introduction alone is worth the price of admission. Some of his most inspired writing, IMHO. I think Pettersson knew that the follow-up to what could possibly be his best symphony, the 7th, that the next symphony needed to be just as good or better. I think he succeeded here and Segerstam's performance is the best I've heard.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 18, 2020, 12:30:22 PMI'd read this before, but in only one source: the liner notes for the CPO recording of the 13th Symphony. But I hated that symphony, so I don't have those notes anymore!
Which symphonies do you like the best, Archaic?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2020, 04:02:39 PM
Which symphonies do you like the best, Archaic?
6-8 (no surprise there). But I also like 10, 11 and 14 for occasional listens.
I thought you only liked No. 7?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 18, 2020, 05:31:25 PM
6-8 (no surprise there). But I also like 10, 11 and 14 for occasional listens.
I thought you only liked No. 7?
Very nice. I'm with you on the those symphonies. I did only like the 7th, but I forgot just how powerful the 6th and 8th were.
The 10th is a pandemonium! I rather enjoy it, though. ;D
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on June 18, 2020, 07:49:42 PM
The 10th is a pandemonium! I rather enjoy it, though. ;D
This could be said of many of his symphonies, though. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2020, 07:52:33 PM
This could be said of many of his symphonies, though. ;)
Yes, but I feel this symphony offers few rest for the listener, I mean, it's chaotic almost constantly. Those lyrical sections from others of his symphonies are absent here.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on June 18, 2020, 07:58:52 PM
Yes, but I feel this symphony offers few rest for the listener, I mean, it's chaotic almost constantly. Those lyrical sections from others of his symphonies are absent here.
The 10th is one of the shorter ones, too, so that makes sense. :) I'll have to revisit this one. I've got the Segerstam recording ripped to my iPod, so maybe if I get the courage I'll listen to it tomorrow. :D
I've struggled with No.10 and No.9. Apart from symphonies 6-8 it is the VC No.2 which has had the greatest impact on me. Personally I consider it one of the best violin concertos ever written. I discovered all the above works on LP and like Mr Hurwitz was delighted and amazed to find a Pettersson symphony on a DGG LP when it was first released.
AP looks (slightly) more cheerful than usual in the photo:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on June 18, 2020, 10:10:28 PM
a Pettersson symphony on a DGG LP when it was first released.
I have 2 copies of that one. I think it's still my preferred No. 8. Comissiona was a really fine champion of Mr. P's music.
I have this strange conflict, between being daunted by Nos. 9 & 13, and being curious about them and wanting to get the process of digesting them started as soon as possible, perhaps even before some of the (relatively and assumedly) "easier" symphonies.
That 8th Symphony with Comissiona was also released on the Swedish Polar label - the one I have (photo below).
In that work, I like Thomas Sanderling and Comissiona the most, rather than Segerstam.
I don't recall if I've heard G. Albrecht's version.
The 9th Symphony with Comissiona is on you-tube, but it has been mentioned here before. It was the only LP release of that work.
Comissiona spends 85 minutes, about 15 minutes longer than the others, which obviously slows down the music a lot, and gives very different results, making it less violent and aggressive. It's a masterpiece, IMHO, and the later parts become hypnotic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO_SxlgDBf (maybe not always working)
I believe CD transfers are available somewhere on the web.
Quote from: Daverz on June 18, 2020, 11:13:28 PM
I have 2 copies of that one. I think it's still my preferred No. 8. Comissiona was a really fine champion of Mr. P's music.
+1 I also think highly of his CD of Symphony No.7, bizarrely coupled with Mozart!
(//)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2020, 08:20:18 PM
The 10th is one of the shorter ones, too,
That's probably one reason why I like it - it's not an endless rant like the 13th. To me it sounds somewhat like Mahler 5/ii with the soft parts ripped out and the loud ones extended to 25 minutes.
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 18, 2020, 11:33:11 PM
That 8th Symphony with Comissiona was also released on the Swedish Polar label - the one I have (photo below).
I suspect that's the reason it was never issued on CD - DG didn't have the rights to it.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 18, 2020, 10:10:28 PM
I've struggled with No.10 and No.9. Apart from symphonies 6-8 it is the VC No.2 which has had the greatest impact on me. Personally I consider it one of the best violin concertos ever written. I discovered all the above works on LP and like Mr Hurwitz was delighted and amazed to find a Pettersson symphony on a DGG LP when it was first released.
AP looks (slightly) more cheerful than usual in the photo:
(//)
Very cool, Jeffrey. What is your preferred performance of the
Violin Concerto No. 2? There are several recordings now: Haendel/Blomstedt, Keulen/Dausgaard and Wallin/Lindberg.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 19, 2020, 06:24:35 AM
That's probably one reason why I like it - it's not an endless rant like the 13th. To me it sounds somewhat like Mahler 5/ii with the soft parts ripped out and the loud ones extended to 25 minutes.
That's an interesting description. I'll have to revisit this symphony.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 19, 2020, 06:28:40 AM
Very cool, Jeffrey. What is your preferred performance of the Violin Concerto No. 2? There are several recordings now: Haendel/Blomstedt, Keulen/Dausgaard and Wallin/Lindberg.
Well John, I think that I remain loyal to the Ida Haendel/Blomstedt version which had such an impact on me when I discovered the (very nicely produced) LP. I also enjoy (if that's the right word!) the version released on CPO. The other day I discovered the BIS/Lindberg recording still in its cellophane wrapper - so I need to get round to that one.
How about you?
Pettersson's 7th coupled with Mozart's Bassoon Concerto? ??? ;D Now I have seen it all! 0:)
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2020, 03:32:13 AM
Well John, I think that I remain loyal to the Ida Haendel/Blomstedt version which had such an impact on me when I discovered the (very nicely produced) LP. I also enjoy (if that's the right word!) the version released on CPO. The other day I discovered the BIS/Lindberg recording still in its cellophane wrapper - so I need to get round to that one.
How about you?
I seem to be rather partial to the Keulen/Dausgaard performance, but I should revisit this one and the Haendel/Blomstedt. I have the Wallin/Lindberg, too, but I have come to the conclusion that Linberg just doesn't make this music come alive like Segerstam has done for example.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 20, 2020, 03:44:33 AM
Pettersson's 7th coupled with Mozart's Bassoon Concerto? ??? ;D Now I have seen it all! 0:)
I wonder how many people bought that CD for the Mozart Bassoon Concerto!
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2020, 06:43:06 AM
I wonder how many pool bought that CD for the Mozart Bassoon Concerto!
Hah! An interesting thought, Jeffrey. :)
I'd guess that Pettersson's symphonies often have some quite busy bassoonists; he has some striking passages involving the lower winds, including the woodwinds, and seemed to like writing for them ...
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2020, 06:43:06 AM
I wonder how many pool bought that CD for the Mozart Bassoon Concerto!
Yeah, I almost added that question to my post. Many fans of Mozart are wondering
"Who the hell is this obscure Swede?" ;D
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 20, 2020, 06:50:24 AM
I'd guess that Pettersson's symphonies often have some quite busy bassoonists; he has some striking passages involving the lower winds, including the woodwinds, and seemed to like writing for them ...
Busy bassoonists playing Pettersson are busyynists. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on June 20, 2020, 12:57:02 PM
Yeah, I almost added that question to my post. Many fans of Mozart are wondering "Who the hell is this obscure Swede?" ;D
Busy bassoonists playing Pettersson are busyynists. ;)
Very nice! I've now corrected 'pool' to 'people' in my original post ::)
Quote from: 71 dB on June 20, 2020, 12:57:02 PM
Yeah, I almost added that question to my post. Many fans of Mozart are wondering "Who the hell is this obscure Swede?" ;D
Busy bassoonists playing Pettersson are busyynists. ;)
Yeah, Pettersson also means bassoon business ...
there's likewise one of the few chamber works, the
Fugue in E, where the bassoon is one of 3 selected instruments, together with the oboe and the clarinet.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2020, 06:43:06 AM
I wonder how many people bought that CD for the Mozart Bassoon Concerto!
Like the Symphony, it's a live recording, and something goes wrong with the bassoonists reed (I'm guessing). There are some odd quacking noises.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 21, 2020, 12:25:57 AM
Very nice! I've now corrected 'pool' to 'people' in my original post ::)
Strange. I didn't notice any typo in your post... :P
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 21, 2020, 12:29:52 AM
there's likewise one of the few chamber works, the Fugue in E, where the bassoon is one of 3 selected instruments, together with the oboe and the clarinet.
Fugue for Oboe, Clarinet and Bassoon? Interesting! I may have to check it out.
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 18, 2020, 11:33:11 PM
The 9th Symphony with Comissiona is on you-tube, but it has been mentioned here before. It was the only LP release of that work.
Comissiona spends 85 minutes, about 15 minutes longer than the others, which obviously slows down the music a lot, and gives very different results, making it less violent and aggressive. It's a masterpiece, IMHO, and the later parts become hypnotic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO_SxlgDBf (maybe not always working)
I believe CD transfers are available somewhere on the web.
That 9th CD (2x) / FLAC / MP3 is available (greatly overpriced due to the 2x CD transfer) here:
http://klassichaus.us/Copied-Pettersson-Symphony-No--8.php (http://klassichaus.us/Copied-Pettersson-Symphony-No--8.php)
(http://klassichaus.us/images/KHCD-2019-005-2CD-cover-shaded.jpg)
It's a needledrop (but needledrops can be very good and sometimes better than old tape sources).
A brief listen to some climaxes on my laptop (not on my main system) it sounds nice and clean, good stereo, but a bit rolled-off in the higher frequencies.
Warning: - that site is a bit of a mess around Pettersson - you'll note the above link appears to refer to the 8th. Both symphonies are linked from this lister page:
http://klassichaus.us/Orchestral-Page-6.php (http://klassichaus.us/Orchestral-Page-6.php)
but if you click on the picture for No.9 it is crosslinked back to the purchase/download page for No.8. :-X
If you click on the blue files link for No.9 it takes you to the first link I posted above - from where you can indeed buy and download the correct recording. To add insult to injury CD2 is then described as 'Symphony No.1 Part 2' when it is in fact (I hope!!) Symphony No.9 Part 2. :-X :-X
(http://klassichaus.us/images/KHCD-2019-005-2CD-tray-shaded.jpg)
Sad news for Pettersson fans. Her performance of the VC No.2 was an absolute revelation to me:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jul/01/ida-haendel-obituary
[/img]
I have both. LP and CD. Bought a few Ida Handel discs in the 70ies. Wish there was a complete edition.
Yes, I kept both too ...
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 07, 2020, 08:32:43 AM
Yes, I kept both too ...
As did I. I recall that the LP was extremely well presented and I liked the cover image as well.
Ordered two more Pettersson discs. Symphony No. 2 and Symphonic Movement on CPO (Alun Francis), and Symphonies Nos. 7 & 11 on BIS (Leif Segerstam). On top of that, I'm listening to No. 6 again to celebrate this fact, and I think I might be finally warming to it. One aspect I find fascinating is the almost constant underpinning of percussion he uses throughout pretty much every bar of this hour-long monolith.
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 01, 2020, 05:55:58 AM
Ordered two more Pettersson discs. Symphony No. 2 and Symphonic Movement on CPO (Alun Francis), and Symphonies Nos. 7 & 11 on BIS (Leif Segerstam). On top of that, I'm listening to No. 6 again to celebrate this fact, and I think I might be finally warming to it. One aspect I find fascinating is the almost constant underpinning of percussion he uses throughout pretty much every bar of this hour-long monolith.
Ah yes, and 'the long struggle towards the sunrise' (Symphony No.6). Segerstam's No.7 is a terrific performance IMO.
I'd point to the version of Symphony XI on that Segerstam disc ;)
Listening to Symphony No. 7 for the first time properly. I'm in the middle of one of his beautiful "lyrical islands" right now, the passage for strings alone around 30 mins in. This is incredible music! The B minor motif that repeats a lot near the beginning, while all around it is change and uncertainty, this motif remains unblemished.
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 08, 2020, 03:16:37 AM
Listening to Symphony No. 7 for the first time properly. I'm in the middle of one of his beautiful "lyrical islands" right now, the passage for strings alone around 30 mins in. This is incredible music! The B minor motif that repeats a lot near the beginning, while all around it is change and uncertainty, this motif remains unblemished.
It's rightly the best known of the Pettersson symphonies I think.
I'm told that BIS's recording of the Viola Concerto and Symphony No. 15, with Lindberg and the Norrköping SO, will be released in February.
And before then, No. 12 in the same cycle is coming out in January.
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 08, 2020, 03:16:37 AM
Listening to Symphony No. 7 for the first time properly. I'm in the middle of one of his beautiful "lyrical islands" right now, the passage for strings alone around 30 mins in. This is incredible music! The B minor motif that repeats a lot near the beginning, while all around it is change and uncertainty, this motif remains unblemished.
Oh yes, it's totally transcendent stuff. The contrast between darkness and light (and different shades in between) throughout the work mark the 7th out to be an undoubted masterpiece.
My overall favorites are 6 and 7, or at least they represent my fresher Pettersson. Maybe the 6th sounds more agonizing. I don't remember how the 8th sounds like: more hopeful or darker?.
I couldn't pass on Pettersson's 8th. This time with Segerstam on BIS. Two big slow parts or movements, there are many slow and pensive passages. The struggle I feel here is more heroic, not as desolate as in others before (or even after). And there's not too much tension either. For me it's a symphony of relative rest. The climax at the minute 16 from Part II is impressive, nevertheless.
Quote from: CRCulver on December 08, 2020, 02:31:29 PM
I'm told that BIS's recording of the Viola Concerto and Symphony No. 15, with Lindberg and the Norrköping SO, will be released in February.
Another recording of the Viola Concerto? It's already coupled with the Symphony #5.
Sorry, I misremembered the BIS schedule: it is the recording of the Twelve that is coming in February.
But yes, eventually a recording of the Symphony No. 15 paired with the Viola Concerto will come out on BIS. Christian Lindberg and the Norrköping SO performed it in concert in November 2019 and recorded it around the same time. BIS is trying to do a complete Christian Lindberg cycle of Pettersson orchestral works, even if it duplicates things that had already been recorded for the label before.
Yeah, the assortment of BIS recordings of the symphonies was not complete. As far as I can tell, only 3 & 15, 5 & Viola Concerto, 7 & 11, and 8 & 10 were released. But this new Lindberg cycle is fairly close to completion now.
I feel like I've reached a breakthrough with Pettersson's music. In the last week I've finally tackled what are reputed to be his two most difficult symphonies, Nos. 9 & 13, and I haven't been repelled by them at all! They are both incredibly intense.
Quote from: Maestro267 on February 27, 2021, 06:09:05 AM
I feel like I've reached a breakthrough with Pettersson's music. In the last week I've finally tackled what are reputed to be his two most difficult symphonies, Nos. 9 & 13, and I haven't been repelled by them at all! They are both incredibly intense.
You're a braver man than I. I like the 7th symphony, but that's about it.
My brain is racked, to be fair. But I certainly haven't been turned away from hearing them again.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2021, 06:15:00 AM
You're a braver man than I. I like the 7th symphony, but that's about it.
Symphony 6-8 and the Violin Concerto No.2 are the ones that I listen to most often.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2021, 11:41:16 AM
Symphony 6-8 and the Violin Concerto No.2 are the ones that I listen to most often.
I do seem to have enjoyed the 8th the last time I listened to it. I should revisit the 6th and
Violin Concerto No. 2, but, unfortunately, I don't think I have the stamina. ;) ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 01, 2021, 11:45:41 AM
I do seem to have enjoyed the 8th the last time I listened to it. I should revisit the 6th and Violin Concerto No. 2, but, unfortunately, I don't think I have the stamina. ;) ;D
I think that 6 and 7 are better than 8 but maybe VC No.2 is best of all, especially the last few minutes.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2021, 11:54:42 AM
I think that 6 and 7 are better than 8 but maybe VC No.2 is best of all, especially the last few minutes.
Yes, I recall the last part of the 2nd VC includes a 'meditation' if you will on one of his
Barefoot Songs. I recall this section being particularly moving.
Nothing but Pettersson for the past two week.
My favorites are 7, 9, 6, 8, 11, 13, 12, 14, 16, 15, not exactly but more or less in that order. I don't like the first five symphonies as much.
Obviously, 7 is my favorite, but my favorite movement is the final movement of the 9th. No more made pain more beautiful.
Outside of the symphonies, the VC 2 and the Barefoot Songs are both masterpieces. But I have to mention that I was surprised by how much I liked the chamber music, the little that I have of them.
Quote from: springrite on July 01, 2021, 09:33:34 PM
Nothing but Pettersson for the past two week.
My favorites are 7, 9, 6, 8, 11, 13, 12, 14, 16, 15, not exactly but more or less in that order. I don't like the first five symphonies as much.
Obviously, 7 is my favorite, but my favorite movement is the final movement of the 9th. No more made pain more beautiful.
Outside of the symphonies, the VC 2 and the Barefoot Songs are both masterpieces. But I have to mention that I was surprised by how much I liked the chamber music, the little that I have of them.
Interesting about your choice of no.9. Which recording is it?
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 01, 2021, 10:10:26 PM
Interesting about your choice of no.9. Which recording is it?
CPO
Quote from: springrite on July 01, 2021, 09:33:34 PM
Nothing but Pettersson for the past two week.
My favorites are 7, 9, 6, 8, 11, 13, 12, 14, 16, 15, not exactly but more or less in that order. I don't like the first five symphonies as much.
Obviously, 7 is my favorite, but my favorite movement is the final movement of the 9th. No more made pain more beautiful.
Outside of the symphonies, the VC 2 and the Barefoot Songs are both masterpieces. But I have to mention that I was surprised by how much I liked the chamber music, the little that I have of them.
Interestingly, my own favourites are practically the same as yours, at least for the first 6. The picture blurs a little past that point. I probably like nos 2 and 5 more than you do though. I recently listened to no 5 twice, appreciating it much more on the second run.
I need to revisit Pettersson in some sort of structured way to do a full favourite listing, but for now...
7, 5, 6, 16, 8, 9, then the rest in shifting order. Even those move about a fair bit.
If I wasn't in full Shostakovich mode at the moment, I'd do just that. I have so enjoyed the Lindberg set, even though I've cut my teeth on the CPOs.
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 02, 2021, 12:35:22 PM
I need to revisit Pettersson in some sort of structured way to do a full favourite listing, but for now...
7, 5, 6, 16, 8, 9, then the rest in shifting order. Even those move about a fair bit.
If I wasn't in full Shostakovich mode at the moment, I'd do just that. I have so enjoyed the Lindberg set, even though I've cut my teeth on the CPOs.
I would never claim to be a big Pettersson fan, but the 6th, 7th and 8th, for me, are outright masterpieces. I rate them so highly because I feel that this particular period of his life spoke
to me. The doom and gloom of the later symphonies isn't there and the moments of heartbreaking beauty that make the journey worthwhile are aplenty. The 7th is one of the few pieces of music to actually cause me to break down and cry (the others are the
Adagietto from Mahler's 5th,
Il tempo largo from Sibelius' 4th, the
Passacaglia from Shostakovich's
Violin Concerto No. 1 and Strauss'
Vier letzte Lieder). This is why I still have such a strong affinity for this symphony ---- to me, in that long slow section, you can hear those moments from his childhood where he seemed to be looking back and the vision of his mother consoling his younger self and telling him everything is going to be fine. I don't know it just sounds like he's sharing something incredibly personal with the listener.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2021, 07:19:50 PM
I would never claim to be a big Pettersson fan, but the 6th, 7th and 8th, for me, are outright masterpieces. I rate them so highly because I feel that this particular period of his life spoke to me. The doom and gloom of the later symphonies isn't there and the moments of heartbreaking beauty that make the journey worthwhile are aplenty. The 7th is one of the few pieces of music to actually cause me to break down and cry (the others are the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th, Il tempo largo from Sibelius' 4th, the Passacaglia from Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 and Strauss' Vier letzte Lieder). This is why I still have such a strong affinity for this symphony ---- to me, in that long slow section, you can hear those moments from his childhood where he seemed to be looking back and the vision of his mother consoling his younger self and telling him everything is going to be fine. I don't know it just sounds like he's sharing something incredibly personal with the listener.
An interesting posting John. 6,7 and 8 and the Violin Concerto No.2 (especially the last few minutes of it) do it for me as well.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2021, 10:31:21 PM
An interesting posting John. 6,7 and 8 and the Violin Concerto No.2 (especially the last few minutes of it) do it for me as well.
Ah yes, I forgot to mention
Violin Concerto No. 2. That's an excellent work. What is your favorite performance of it, Jeffrey?
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 03, 2021, 06:17:52 AM
Ah yes, I forgot to mention Violin Concerto No. 2. That's an excellent work. What is your favorite performance of it, Jeffrey?
Greetings John!
I'm very loyal to the Blomstedt/Ida Haendel version as that's the one (especially the last few minutes) which had an overwhelming emotional effect on me on LP. I think that section quotes one of Pettersson's 'Barefoot Songs'. I like the LP cover art too. Having said that I greatly enjoy the more recent CPO recording. I'm less familiar with the BIS recording, although I do have it (somewhere ::))
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on July 03, 2021, 07:25:38 AM
Greetings John!
I'm very loyal to the Blomstedt/Ida Haendel version as that's the one (especially the last few minutes) which had an overwhelming emotional effect on me on LP. I think that section quotes one of Pettersson's 'Barefoot Songs'. I like the LP cover art too. Having said that I greatly enjoy the more recent CPO recording. I'm less familiar with the BIS recording, although I do have it (somewhere ::))
(//)
Very nice, Jeffrey. I too enjoy the Haendel/Blomstedt performance. I also like the Keulen/Dausgaard one you mentioned on CPO. I own the Wallin/Lindberg on BIS, but haven't listened to it as I'm just not greatly impressed with the Lindberg series in general.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2021, 07:19:50 PM
The 7th is one of the few pieces of music to actually cause me to break down and cry (the others are the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th, Il tempo largo from Sibelius' 4th, the Passacaglia from Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 and Strauss' Vier letzte Lieder).
The 7th has such arresting power, I agree. I've been stopped in my tracks by this too, causingme to stop whatever else I'mdoing and just hear it. Bruckner 7 has done that in the past, and recently Shostakovich SQs 4 and 8, and surprisingly to me, the Imants Kalnins Symphony 6. Music does more than simply calm the savage breast...
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 03, 2021, 09:51:34 AM
The 7th has such arresting power, I agree. I've been stopped in my tracks by this too, causingme to stop whatever else I'mdoing and just hear it. Bruckner 7 has done that in the past, and recently Shostakovich SQs 4 and 8, and surprisingly to me, the Imants Kalnins Symphony 6. Music does more than simply calm the savage breast...
The Kalnins 6th Symphony has been played often here since I acquired the box set.
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 03, 2021, 09:51:34 AM
The 7th has such arresting power, I agree. I've been stopped in my tracks by this too, causing me to stop whatever else I'm doing and just hear it. Bruckner 7 has done that in the past, and recently Shostakovich SQs 4 and 8, and surprisingly to me, the Imants Kalnins Symphony 6. Music does more than simply calm the savage breast...
Hmmm...I'll have to check out Kalniņš. I know Jeffrey has spoken highly of him. It'll be quite some time before I'm probably able to get to his music, though, as I still have so much music to digest and soak in before moving onto someone else.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 03, 2021, 01:46:03 PM
The Kalnins 6th Symphony has been played often here since I acquired the box set.
I'm very taken with it. I have very much enjoyed his 7th and 2nd, find his 4th a fun listen, and am slowly getting to know the 5th. The 6th has been one of my most often played new pieces of music this year.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 03, 2021, 07:29:50 PM
Hmmm...I'll have to check out Kalniņš. I know Jeffrey has spoken highly of him. It'll be quite some time before I'm probably able to get to his music, though, as I still have so much music to digest and soak in before moving onto someone else.
He is definitely worth exploring. His popular music has a big priority over his orchestral work, I think, but I've found much to enjoy so far.
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 04, 2021, 12:48:46 PMHe is definitely worth exploring. His popular music has a big priority over his orchestral work, I think, but I've found much to enjoy so far.
Thanks, I'll have to check him out. 8)
Likely to play some Allan Pettersson this evening in honour of the anniversary of his birthday today. Time for a run through of his symphonies, perhaps?
Edit:
Allan Pettersson
Symphonies 1 and 2
Christian Lindberg
Norrköping SO
BIS
Beginning with Lindberg's own performance edition of #1. Without taking anything away from Alun Francis and others in the CPO cycle, I very much like Lindberg in Pettersson.
Hi foxandpeng. Your enthusiasm for Pettersson's music is infectious—makes me want to hear more. What I've heard is this: Symphony No.7, Violin Concerto No.2 and the Barefoot Songs. Anything else you'd recommend to me as a must-hear for someone new to his music (and possibly treading lightly)...?
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 19, 2022, 04:00:31 PM
Hi foxandpeng. Your enthusiasm for Pettersson's music is infectious—makes me want to hear more. What I've heard is this: Symphony No.7, Violin Concerto No.2 and the Barefoot Songs. Anything else you'd recommend to me as a must-hear for someone new to his music (and possibly treading lightly)...?
Ah, that is great to hear :). Definitely #7 and the VC2, but as a next step I would also recommend #6 and #8 from the symphonies, and maybe the Concerti for Strings? #6 and #8 are in the same ballpark as #7, I feel. Not easy to tread lightly with Pettersson :) :)
Never tried the Barefoot Songs. You have piqued my interest!
I do love Allan Pettersson. Symphony 5 grows on me more every time I hear it. Just stunning. Otherworldly, really.
There are some really stunning moments scattered throughout the 7th symphony. This composer writes in a very intriguing idiom, and I can truly see why he has such a dedicated (albeit small) following.
Mostly cross-posting again from WAYLT with a few additional comments...
Allan Pettersson
Symphonies 4 and 16
Symphony 4
Christian Lindberg
Norrköping SO
BIS
Backtracking a little in my Pettersson ponderings after symphony 8, to relisten not just to the Lindberg performances of the first 7, but to take in the CPO and other releases. I very much like #4, with its rural melody and hymn-like snippets, to which Pettersson gave the dedication ...
'Symphony 4: To my mother, who has gone home to the life in which goodness is personified in God'
There seem to be moments of beauty and hope - even peace - interspersed with the dissonance and conflict so often present in his other symphonies. I guess there is some understandable conflict in Pettersson with themes of Christian hope vying with the personal troubles and pessimism which are his natural air. It seems to me that what has sometimes been seen as clunky or unsatisfactory in #4 may be as much to do with this tension as much as Pettersson's development and growth in musical language. Eschatological anguish? Maybe.
I continue to feel really positive about the Lindberg cycle. His reconstruction of Symphony 1, in particular, building on the 'significant torso' that Pettersson left is a win for me. It is very much in the style and spirit of Pettersson and with the occasional sliding trombone insertions, has something of the stamp of Lindberg too. Seems to fit!
Just my limited and amateurish opinion, of course. Point is, it works for me as a performance edition, as an uneducated hearer.
Quote from: foxandpeng on September 20, 2022, 02:39:53 AM
Ah, that is great to hear :). Definitely #7 and the VC2, but as a next step I would also recommend #6 and #8 from the symphonies, and maybe the Concerti for Strings? #6 and #8 are in the same ballpark as #7, I feel. Not easy to tread lightly with Pettersson :) :)
Never tried the Barefoot Songs. You have piqued my interest!
I ended up ordering copies of the 6th and the three String Concerti, all CPO. I am curious about the ongoing Lindberg BIS cycle, but BIS is expensive. Would love to check out the 8th too. But DAMN, the 7th is incredible. I've listened to it every day since Monday. Entrancing.
Edit: I ordered the 8th ;D CPO as well.
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 22, 2022, 03:06:20 PM
I ended up ordering copies of the 6th and the three String Concerti, all CPO. I am curious about the ongoing Lindberg BIS cycle, but BIS is expensive. Would love to check out the 8th too. But DAMN, the 7th is incredible. I've listened to it every day since Monday. Entrancing.
Edit: I ordered the 8th ;D CPO as well.
I very much share your view on #7. I think the more one listens to Pettersson, the more the more his sound world become accessible and deeply resonant. I think it is hard to go wrong with any of his output, because once a work begins to be familiar after several listens, it is really captivating. Having said that, my wife and I have been making damson jam for the last couple of evenings and after an evening of hard and glam rock on Wednesday, I suggested Pettersson 4 as part of last night's creative accompaniment. Apparently, it is 'disgusting' and 'like living in a Stephen King horror film'.
#6 and #8 have several fans here, as this thread shows, so those CPO recordings will be a winner. I look forward to your thoughts on the String Concerti; I think my preferences are 1, 3 and 2 in that order.
I'm not sure if this was posted to our new releases thread yet, someone on another board said the BIS CEO is planning a box set for Pettersson. They must be planning to record several works not yet out on BIS because his exact words were it will include "every note he ever wrote"
Probably doesn't need to be until we actually see it on any new release mailing lists or however the folks who post that sort of stuff in the thread get their info.
Quote from: hvbias on September 23, 2022, 05:10:54 AM
I'm not sure if this was posted to our new releases thread yet, someone on another board said the BIS CEO is planning a box set for Pettersson. They must be planning to record several works not yet out on BIS because his exact words were it will include "every note he ever wrote"
That is really great news! Every note he ever wrote? Wow!
Hey, that's awesome news. While I'm not sure that I need to hear every note Pettersson ever wrote, at least at this stage in my life, it's always amazing to see a more or less neglected composer receive this degree of advocacy.
I was deeply struck by Pettersson's Violin Concerto No. 2, such a powerfully emotional composition. It has gloomy and tense textures, full of sadness, anger and sufferance, so violently evoked by the dissonant trimbric weaving of the orchestra and the even more raw and strident soloist, that it is absolutely overwhelming; I agree it sounds like hearing the instruments screaming and it leaves a great impression; but despite the tortuous pace and the harmonic tensions, as well as a glimpse of melancholy that can be perceived anyway, the structure also develops at some point a more lyrical atmosphere, softening the contrasts little by little, till the serene, touching ending, as a sort of consolation may be found.
It sounds as a very demanding work as Schönberg's Violin Concerto, reminding that also for similar sharp and fiery timbres, especially by the violin.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 25, 2022, 11:44:03 PM
I was deeply struck by Pettersson's Violin Concerto No. 2, such a powerfully emotional composition. It has gloomy and tense textures, full of sadness, anger and sufferance, so violently evoked by the dissonant trimbric weaving of the orchestra and the even more raw and strident soloist, that it is absolutely overwhelming; I agree it sounds like hearing the instruments screaming and it leaves a great impression; but despite the tortuous pace and the harmonic tensions, as well as a glimpse of melancholy that can be perceived anyway, the structure also develops at some point a more lyrical atmosphere, softening the contrasts little by little, till the serene, touching ending, as a sort of consolation may be found.
It sounds as a very demanding work as Schönberg's Violin Concerto, reminding that also for similar sharp and fiery timbres, especially by the violin.
Your impression was very similar to mine Ilaria, only you expressed yours a lot more eloquently! (I never was all that great about talking about music.) All I'll say is that I enjoyed it so much I listened to it three times this week after hearing it for the first time on Tuesday. I'm happy you had such a positive impression of it too. Stunning performance from all forces. Makes me wish Blomstedt had conducted more Pettersson.
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 26, 2022, 05:52:58 AM
Your impression was very similar to mine Ilaria, only you expressed yours a lot more eloquently! (I never was all that great about talking about music.) All I'll say is that I enjoyed it so much I listened to it three times this week after hearing it for the first time on Tuesday. I'm happy you had such a positive impression of it too. Stunning performance from all forces. Makes me wish Blomstedt had conducted more Pettersson.
Agreed, I had great expectations on Blomstedt and he didn't fail about giving a gorgeous performance; I wonder what he could have done with one of the symphonies if he had recorded it, the famous 7th Symphony, for example!
I'll try Pettersson's
Violin Concerto No.1 too.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 26, 2022, 10:55:20 AM
Agreed, I had great expectations on Blomstedt and he didn't fail about giving a gorgeous performance; I wonder what he could have done with one of the symphonies if he had recorded it, the famous 7th Symphony, for example!
I'll try Pettersson's Violin Concerto No.1 too.
I haven't heard that one yet, but I do find the prospect of a concerto for string quartet plus violin soloist intriguing.
So encouraging to see the Pettersson conversation flowing so enthusiastically and eloquently, both here and on the WAYLT thread! I have had a few days away from being able to listen to anything much due to intense busyness both at work and at home, but hope to land back in with a bang this evening while my wife is at her watercolour class. Pettersson's early symphonies will be my chosen point of re-entry before I continue from 9 onwards later in the week :)
Quote from: foxandpeng on September 27, 2022, 06:35:06 AM
So encouraging to see the Pettersson conversation flowing so enthusiastically and eloquently, both here and on the WAYLT thread! I have had a few days away from being able to listen to anything much due to intense busyness both at work and at home, but hope to land back in with a bang this evening while my wife is at her watercolour class. Pettersson's early symphonies will be my chosen point of re-entry before I continue from 9 onwards later in the week :)
I've mentioned it many times, but Comissiona in the 9th provides a very different, much slower and IMO much better performance of the 9th, compared to the very fast and frantic CPO and BIS. It's on youtube.
Also, Kamu should be heard in the 6th.
Concerning an oncoming complete edition, I'm actually not aware of any works not recorded now. Cf also the list of works on the Pettersson society home page.
(I haven't checked the fragment of the 17th symphony, and the Symphonic Movement though, that I have on MC somewhere).
Quote from: MusicTurner on September 27, 2022, 11:05:35 AM
I've mentioned it many times, but Comissiona in the 9th provides a very different, much slower and IMO much better performance of the 9th, compared to CPO and BIS. It's on youtube.
Thanks for the mention, will give it a listen:
Pettersson Symphony № 9 (1970) Sergiu Comissionahttps://www.youtube.com/v/nO_SxlgDBfA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO_SxlgDBfA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO_SxlgDBfA)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 27, 2022, 11:14:50 AM
Thanks for the mention, will give it a listen:
Pettersson Symphony № 9 (1970) Sergiu Comissiona
https://www.youtube.com/v/nO_SxlgDBfA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO_SxlgDBfA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO_SxlgDBfA)
+1
It's available to download or buy as (2x)CD - restored from vinyl I think - from Klassic Haus
link to download page (http://klassichaus.us/Copied-Pettersson-Symphony-No--8.php)
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 26, 2022, 11:41:29 AM
I haven't heard that one yet, but I do find the prospect of a concerto for string quartet plus violin soloist intriguing.
I can share the feeling, as a matter of fact, it sounds listening to a String Quintet or a Chamber Concerto more than a Violin Concerto, but it's an extremely interesting work; the small instrumentation gives impression of a purpose to concentrate the expressiveness and of inner deepness.
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 23, 2022, 02:31:40 PM
Hey, that's awesome news. While I'm not sure that I need to hear every note Pettersson ever wrote, at least at this stage in my life, it's always amazing to see a more or less neglected composer receive this degree of advocacy.
I agree, I doubt I need to hear everything, but it will be nice to have it in an attractively priced box. Also for works like Symphony 3 where I was comparing Alun Francis (CD) with Segerstam (streaming) I found Segerstam's performance superior and it will be nice to have things like this duplicated rather than have to buy individual CDs.
I ended up accumulating a bunch of the CPO recordings: the 6th, 7th and 8th, the String Concertos, and the Barefoot Songs. They're all so good. I don't doubt that the BIS recordings of the aforementioned might be better—I've never been let down by a BIS recording of anything—but the CPO series is damn good, good enough to keep me looking for the rest of them. Too bad I pretty much have to track them down one by one. I've got plenty of Pettersson for now, I think. But I am curious about the earlier symphonies, and the later ones, though I'm more intimidated by those.
My foray into the Concerti for String Orchestra has been so positive, I started listening to the Ida Haendel/Herbie Blomstedt recording of the Violin Concerto No. 2 on YouTube. I'm definitely going to finish that, and report.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2022, 07:50:54 PM
My foray into the Concerti for String Orchestra has been so positive, I started listening to the Ida Haendel/Herbie Blomstedt recording of the Violin Concerto No. 2 on YouTube. I'm definitely going to finish that, and report.
Good to hear that, Karl, the
Violin Concerto No. 2 is an absolutely striking composition and the Blomstedt/Haendel recording is impressive, I hope you'll like it!
Cross-postQuote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 04, 2022, 05:32:54 AM
Pettersson
Concerto № 2 for Violin & Orchestra (1977/78)
Ida Haendel, vn
Swedish Radio Symphony
Herbert Blomstedt
I cannot say for absolutely sure, but this is what I think I remember: I had bought the
cpo recording of the
Concerto, listened (or tried to listen) once, came away feeling that the piece and probably the composer were awful. Was resolved as a consequence simply to avoid
Pettersson.
I really enjoyed this, today. As with the
String Concerti, I need to go back, as there is too much to "digest" on a single hearing, but I expect my enjoyment to deepen over time.
Bit of a Pettersson kick this weekend: listened to 6, 7 and 8 over the past couple days. All three are so good, though are fairly similar to one another. I think 7 is still my favorite, though they're all very, very good.
I downloaded the Klassik Haus needle drop of Pettersson's 9th with the Gothenburg under Sergiu Comissiona. I don't know if I'm up for it just yet, it's a massive symphony. I'm tempted to get the Comissiona 8th as well, but I ought to spend more time with the one I already have, Thomas Sanderling/RSO Berlin on CPO, first.
Anyone else listening?
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 04, 2023, 02:19:42 PMBit of a Pettersson kick this weekend: listened to 6, 7 and 8 over the past couple days. All three are so good, though are fairly similar to one another. I think 7 is still my favorite, though they're all very, very good.
I downloaded the Klassik Haus needle drop of Pettersson's 9th with the Gothenburg under Sergiu Comissiona. I don't know if I'm up for it just yet, it's a massive symphony. I'm tempted to get the Comissiona 8th as well, but I ought to spend more time with the one I already have, Thomas Sanderling/RSO Berlin on CPO, first.
Anyone else listening?
Well, I am now! Pettersson envy, despite the late hour. Symphony 15 and the Viola Concerto. I concur with your present favourites, but find all of his symphonic output deeply compelling. Even I don't fancy #12, 'The Dead in the Square', at this time of night, however.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 04, 2023, 02:19:42 PMBit of a Pettersson kick this weekend: listened to 6, 7 and 8 over the past couple days. All three are so good, though are fairly similar to one another. I think 7 is still my favorite, though they're all very, very good.
I downloaded the Klassik Haus needle drop of Pettersson's 9th with the Gothenburg under Sergiu Comissiona. I don't know if I'm up for it just yet, it's a massive symphony. I'm tempted to get the Comissiona 8th as well, but I ought to spend more time with the one I already have, Thomas Sanderling/RSO Berlin on CPO, first.
Anyone else listening?
Yes, I've been listening to No.6 several times lately (CPO).
Out of curiosity, about Pettersson's symphonies, which one do you think is better, the BIS recordings or the CPO edition?
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 04, 2023, 03:15:35 PMWell, I am now! Pettersson envy, despite the late hour. Symphony 15 and the Viola Concerto. I concur with your present favourites, but find all of his symphonic output deeply compelling. Even I don't fancy #12, 'The Dead in the Square', at this time of night, however.
I think I may get this as my first foray into the BIS series. I'm curious about that Viola Concerto.
One of the last works he completed, and for his own instrument.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 05, 2023, 11:06:43 AMOut of curiosity, about Pettersson's symphonies, which one do you think is better, the BIS recordings or the CPO edition?
I've recently listened to the BIS and CPO recordings of Pettersson's 6th Symphony, enjoying (if that's the right word!) both. They both held my attention throughout the gruelling hour of the 6th Symphony - leading to that wonderfully cathartic last few minutes where the hymn-like theme emerges from the chaos as the disruptive elents sink into the background. The BIS seemed to be the more 'close-up' recording but the less spot-lit CPO version is also fine. Neither entirely displace my memory of Kamu's CBS LP recording.
I prefer both the Kamu & Stig Westerberg performances of No.6 (the Westerberg is of the premiere, I believe) to BIS and CPO, though find CPO fine in its own right. The more recent (Lindberg) BIS series just doesn't grip me like so many of the older recordings do, though i need to craft an explanation for why not.
Quote from: J on June 06, 2023, 10:09:34 AMI prefer both the Kamu & Stig Westerberg performances of No.6 (the Westerberg is of the premiere, I believe) to BIS and CPO, though find CPO fine in its own right. The more recent (Lindberg) BIS series just doesn't grip me like so many of the older recordings do, though i need to craft an explanation for why not.
I see where you are coming from here Greg. I didn't know that there was a Westerberg recording - that's most interesting. I often prefer older LP recordings, as with Kamu in Pettersson's 6th Symphony and Comissiona's DGG LP of the 8th Symphony and Dorati in Symphony 7. The same applies to Westerberg's recordings of Atterberg's 2nd and 5th symphonies.
I prefer the immediacy of the BIS recordings, despite having greater time with the CPO.
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 06, 2023, 12:51:05 PMI prefer the immediacy of the BIS recordings, despite having greater time with the CPO.
Fox, what's your absolute favorite of the BIS Pettersson CDs? I'm asking because I really want to hear some of it, and I can only afford one ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2023, 12:49:42 PMI see where you are coming from here Greg. I didn't know that there was a Westerberg recording - that's most interesting. I often prefer older LP recordings, as with Kamu in Pettersson's 6th Symphony and Comissiona's DGG LP of the 8th Symphony and Dorati in Symphony 7. The same applies to Westerberg's recordings of Atterberg's 2nd and 5th symphonies.
Dorati in No.7 & Comissiona in No.8 I agree are unrivalled, Jeffrey (if that's what you're suggesting), and I'd apply the same encomium to Westerberg's 2nd also.
My second favorite 7th is the Netherlands Radio PO performance with Roman Kofman (hearable on YouTube) - utterly different from Dorati, with the tempos stretched out way beyond anyone else (even Segarstam), but which I think works wonderfully well here.
Among 7th's, the one I simply cannot endure is CPO's, which I find a complete mess (I realize an explanation would be helpful), and perhaps the WORST performance of a Pettersson Symphony I've heard. The "lyrical island" section about 25" in is altogether mangled and unmoving (which takes some doing), and in general (comparing to Dorati's seamlessness and inevitability,for instance) the entire work comes off fragmented and incoherent (poorly played too). Just a thoroughly bad outcome, I'm sorry to say.
Is it even possible anyone here favors it?
Quote from: J on June 06, 2023, 04:35:51 PMDorati in No.7 & Comissiona in No.8 I agree are unrivalled, Jeffrey (if that's what you're suggesting), and I'd apply that encomium to Westerberg's 2nd also.
My second favorite 7th is the Netherlands Radio PO performance with Roman Kofman (hearable on YouTube) - utterly different from Dorati, with the tempos stretched out way beyond anyone else (even Segarstam), but which I think works wonderfully well here.
Among 7th's, the one I simply cannot endure is CPO's, which I find a complete mess (I realize an explanation would be helpful), and perhaps the WORST performance of a Pettersson Symphony I've heard. The "lyrical island" section about 25" in is altogether mangled and unmoving (which takes some doing), and in general (comparing to Dorati's seamlessness and inevitability,for instance) the entire work comes off fragmented and incoherent (poorly played too). Just a thoroughly bad outcome, I'm sorry to say.
Is it even possible anyone here favors it?
I like it! But I haven't heard any of the others. The Doráti appears to be hard to find. Edit: And I seem to recall an old post in this thread where Sgt Rock called the Albrecht his desert island pick for the 7th.
Quote from: J on June 06, 2023, 04:35:51 PMDorati in No.7 & Comissiona in No.8 I agree are unrivalled, Jeffrey (if that's what you're suggesting), and I'd apply the same encomium to Westerberg's 2nd also.
My second favorite 7th is the Netherlands Radio PO performance with Roman Kofman (hearable on YouTube) - utterly different from Dorati, with the tempos stretched out way beyond anyone else (even Segarstam), but which I think works wonderfully well here.
Among 7th's, the one I simply cannot endure is CPO's, which I find a complete mess (I realize an explanation would be helpful), and perhaps the WORST performance of a Pettersson Symphony I've heard. The "lyrical island" section about 25" in is altogether mangled and unmoving (which takes some doing), and in general (comparing to Dorati's seamlessness and inevitability,for instance) the entire work comes off fragmented and incoherent (poorly played too). Just a thoroughly bad outcome, I'm sorry to say.
Is it even possible anyone here favors it?
Must look out for the Kofman (need to catch up on my You Tube listening). Apart from the classic Dorati recording (which I had on LP, taken out of a record library - my first encounter with Pettersson)) I remember thinking highly the Segerstam recording on BIS. Probably my favourite Pettersson cover image (Dorati's Decca LP).
This is the sort of discussion that gets me listening to Pettersson, against my better judgement.
FWIW, I have the cpo cycle (which I collected as individual discs) with a few other scattered recordings. Perhaps I will listen to some Lindberg, which is available to stream.
Well, I decided to go in order, and since I last listened to the second symphony, I put on the third. Lindberg has not recorded it (yet?) so I went with the cpo recording.
Sort of a let-down. It is in four movements, rather than an hour long stretch of music, and it was not particularly angst-ridden or histrionic. The beginning was sort of jaunty. Didn't make a huge impression, overall. I have the sinking feeling that I could have been listening to Maxwell Davies.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 04, 2023, 02:19:42 PMBit of a Pettersson kick this weekend: listened to 6, 7 and 8 over the past couple days. All three are so good, though are fairly similar to one another. I think 7 is still my favorite, though they're all very, very good.
I downloaded the Klassik Haus needle drop of Pettersson's 9th with the Gothenburg under Sergiu Comissiona. I don't know if I'm up for it just yet, it's a massive symphony. I'm tempted to get the Comissiona 8th as well, but I ought to spend more time with the one I already have, Thomas Sanderling/RSO Berlin on CPO, first.
Anyone else listening?
The 9th was the hardest for me to get into but worth the struggle. You should seek out Segerstam's recordings. He really got Pettersson better than anyone else IMO.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 05, 2023, 11:06:43 AMOut of curiosity, about Pettersson's symphonies, which one do you think is better, the BIS recordings or the CPO edition?
CPO. I find Lindberg lacks the drive and drama necessary here. He focuses on microdetail and ends up sounding bland.
But CPO is hit and miss. Some conductors like Sanderling are amazing, and some are... not. Lindberg is far more consistent. I think if you listen to one of his recordings and liked it, you would probably like all of his recordings.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 07, 2023, 06:00:27 AMWell, I decided to go in order, and since I last listened to the second symphony, I put on the third. Lindberg has not recorded it (yet?) so I went with the cpo recording.
Sort of a let-down. It is in four movements, rather than an hour long stretch of music, and it was not particularly angst-ridden or histrionic. The beginning was sort of jaunty. Didn't make a huge impression, overall. I have the sinking feeling that I could have been listening to Maxwell Davies.
I don't like anything pre-6th symphony.
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2023, 06:17:16 AMand some are... not.
I liked how I was trying to be polite about it, only after to read J's brutally honest post! Yes the box is highly inconsistent in quality. Perhaps the most inconsistent set I've ever heard of anything.
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2023, 06:20:04 AMI don't like anything pre-6th symphony.
+1 although a friend thinks highly of No.4
I had No.2 on LP but it didn't make much impression on me.
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2023, 06:22:07 AMI liked how I was trying to be polite about it, only after to read J's brutally honest post! Yes the box is highly inconsistent in quality. Perhaps the most inconsistent set I've ever heard of anything.
Which CPO performances did you not like?
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 06, 2023, 02:36:17 PMFox, what's your absolute favorite of the BIS Pettersson CDs? I'm asking because I really want to hear some of it, and I can only afford one ;D
I would be hard pressed. If I were in your shoes I would pick my favourite symphony and start there?
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 07, 2023, 04:25:48 PMI would be hard pressed. If I were in your shoes I would pick my favourite symphony and start there?
I don't know them nearly enough to have a real favorite, but I went for the 5 & 7 disc. You all will be hearing from me on whether I like it or not soon enough... ;D
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2023, 09:57:36 PMThis is the sort of discussion that gets me listening to Pettersson, against my better judgement.
I feel ya, friend!
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 05, 2023, 11:06:43 AMOut of curiosity, about Pettersson's symphonies, which one do you think is better, the BIS recordings or the CPO edition?
Which BIS recordings? There are two sets for at least some of the symphonies: Leif Segerstam and Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra from the 1990s, and more recently, Christian Lindberg and and Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra.
The 7th Symphony is the only that I have listened to both BIS recordings and the CPO recording, and my vote is for BIS/Segerstam. I do need to listen to Comissiona and also revisit Dorati.
Quote from: Keemun on June 07, 2023, 05:30:09 PMWhich BIS recordings? There are two sets for at least some of the symphonies: Leif Segerstam and Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra from the 1990s, and more recently, Christian Lindberg and and Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra.
The 7th Symphony is the only that I have listened to both BIS recordings and the CPO recording, and my vote is for BIS/Segerstam. I do need to listen to Comissiona and also revisit Dorati.
Both the Segerstam and the Lindberg.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 07, 2023, 09:52:08 AMWhich CPO performances did you not like?
Sorry for the very late reply... which will become even later! I'll reply tomorrow. I've been offline for a few days.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 07, 2023, 06:00:27 AMWell, I decided to go in order, and since I last listened to the second symphony, I put on the third. Lindberg has not recorded it (yet?) so I went with the cpo recording.
Sort of a let-down. It is in four movements, rather than an hour long stretch of music, and it was not particularly angst-ridden or histrionic. The beginning was sort of jaunty. Didn't make a huge impression, overall. I have the sinking feeling that I could have been listening to Maxwell Davies.
Brutal take down of poor Maxwell Davies lol. Though I mostly only listen to his string quartets.
Quote from: Atriod on June 10, 2023, 06:01:33 PMBrutal take down of poor Maxwell Davies lol. Though I mostly only listen to his string quartets.
You got my meaning reversed. What I meant was, why listen to this unremarkable work by Pettersson when I could have been listening to something more interesting by Maxwell Davies.
Thoughts on Allan Pettersson's 12th symphony? I have not heard it, but I am intrigued to see what he makes of the choral symphony genre. I am also interested in the one with obbligato saxophone; which one is that again? 15, 16?
The dilemma is always that in order to determine whether something's worth listening to, you have to listen to it, and then can't take that listening back (and replace it with something else) if you judge it as unworthy.
What's the worth of listening to unworthy music, I think is what you're asking.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 10, 2023, 09:16:16 PMYou got my meaning reversed. What I meant was, why listen to this unremarkable work by Pettersson when I could have been listening to something more interesting by Maxwell Davies.
Everything is worth listening to at least once.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 12, 2023, 12:05:10 AMEverything is worth listening to at least once.
Have you listened to Haydn's 126 Baryton trios yet?
Just listened to the 6th Symphony of Pettersson (Lindberg) in it's entirety.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71KqovWS47L._SL1400_.jpg)
A remarkable work. It occurs to me that so much time isn't needed to complete this musical journey, but at any given moment the music is satisfying. The glory of it is what I would have called the coda, except what I was thinking of as the code sprouted a coda, which may have sprouted a codetta. Let's say the last 10 minutes or so, producing a mood of uneasy resignation, nicely rich and sensuous in its harmony and orchestration.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2023, 06:10:35 AMA remarkable work.
Yeah, this is the piece (and recording) that got me listening to AP again, after avoiding him for many years. Really powerful stuff. I remember reading somewhere that it supposedly has a "25-minute coda," but that's the wrong way to look at it. It's really a work divided into 2 halves of approximately equal length. Calling the second half a coda may make some structural sense but is somewhat misleading.
I do wish BIS had put multiple tracks on that CD - one track that lasts over an hour is not very helpful if you want to spot-listen.
The CPO recording of the 6th is so damn good, that I'm not really in a hurry to hear any others. But I am curious about the recent BIS one.
I like this one by Stig Westerberg.
Quote from: relm1 on June 13, 2023, 05:44:05 AMI like this one by Stig Westerberg.
Didn't know this existed, thanks. There's an Okko Kamu/Norrköping SO recording from I believe the 60s as well that I'm interested in too.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 13, 2023, 07:20:45 AMThere's an Okko Kamu/Norrköping SO recording from I believe the 60s as well that I'm interested in too.
That dates from the 70s, was released on a CBS LP, and has never appeared on CD.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 13, 2023, 07:30:37 AMThat dates from the 70s, was released on a CBS LP, and has never appeared on CD.
I believe the Klassik Haus people released a CD bootleg of it.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 13, 2023, 02:00:52 PMI believe the Klassik Haus people released a CD bootleg of it.
That's right. It's deleted from their catalogue but they are thinking of reissuing it.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2023, 10:27:55 PMThat's right. It's deleted from their catalogue but they are thinking of reissuing it.
I'm a huge fan of Okko Kamu - he's just so consistently reliable in everything I've heard so would love to hear this but can only find it on LP which I can't play.
Quote from: relm1 on June 14, 2023, 05:42:51 AMI'm a huge fan of Okko Kamu - he's just so consistently reliable in everything I've heard so would love to hear this but can only find it on LP which I can't play.
I'll let you know of KH Records reissue it. He's looking for a hard copy of the LP.
Kamu is one of the few to get Sibelius's 3rd Symphony right.
Had an incredible Pettersson experience with Symphony 1 a couple of days ago. It randomly came up on my phone on my commute back from work, very shortly thereafter some storm clouds appeared. They turned a somewhat overcast sky at ~ 4:30 in the afternoon to becoming really dark, like muggy grey dark, but still dark. This was going down a hill that was a long ~ 1 mile descent. I couldn't make out too much of the music since I forgot to add ReplayGain to the file and even at low RPMs/high gear the NA flat 6 isn't exactly quiet plus there is almost no sound deadening for their weight reduction. But what did come through was incredible, it really did feel like a descent into hell >:D
This is sort of the scenery around this area, it's incredibly beautiful.
(https://i.imgur.com/7XlSs7b.jpg)
All the Tabakov I've had in my heavy rotation has put Pettersson back in that heavy rotation too.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 11, 2023, 01:38:46 PMThoughts on Allan Pettersson's 12th symphony? I have not heard it, but I am intrigued to see what he makes of the choral symphony genre. I am also interested in the one with obbligato saxophone; which one is that again? 15, 16?
The 12th is a fantastic choral symphony. While it is not in my zone of favorite Pettersson symphonies, the 12th sets itself apart for being in a different sound world from his other works. Worth listening to, especially if you can stream it.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 12, 2023, 12:05:10 AMEverything is worth listening to at least once.
It is not really feasible to listen to all recorded music. And certainly time is better spent with music I enjoy in my limited time upon this Earth. And no matter how hard I try, I would still die not having heard all music that I might love.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 07, 2023, 09:52:08 AMWhich CPO performances did you not like?
After all this time... drum roll... yeah I forgot. I distinctly remember the experience of listening to some of them and really not liking the performances, but I don't remember which ones and I apparently didn't post about those experiences either. When I don't like it I'm not as likely to talk about it.
Whenever I give a fresh relisten and find them I'll for sure post on this thread.
No.7, which is awful, had to have been one of them.
I think the CPO series used something like 5 different conductors and a bunch of different orchestras, all playing under varying conditions (I think the #14 was a radio broadcast of the first performance, or something like that). So it's highly variable in quality. What I've heard of the BIS series is more consistently good, although I can understand preferring individual CPO releases in some cases.
That said, the CPO releases do have cool cover art, as is typical for this label, whereas BIS just has boring photos of the composer and conductor(s). Advantage CPO in that respect.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 18, 2023, 06:01:08 PMI think the CPO series used something like 5 different conductors and a bunch of different orchestras, all playing under varying conditions (I think the #14 was a radio broadcast of the first performance, or something like that). So it's highly variable in quality. What I've heard of the BIS series is more consistently good, although I can understand preferring individual CPO releases in some cases.
That said, the CPO releases do have cool cover art, as is typical for this label, whereas BIS just has boring photos of the composer and conductor(s). Advantage CPO in that respect.
A major plus for BIS will be when we can buy it as a cheap box. With all this Pettersson discussion I played my LP of Sergiu Comissiona conducting Symphony 8. Amazing performance that I wish would come out on digital.
Quote from: Atriod on June 18, 2023, 06:09:44 PMA major plus for BIS will be when we can buy it as a cheap box. With all this Pettersson discussion I played my LP of Sergiu Comissiona conducting Symphony 8. Amazing performance that I wish would come out on digital.
Yeah, that's a good one. I suspect the reason it was never released on CD is because DG doesn't have the rights to it - they originally licensed it from a Swedish label called Polar.
I had an email from Curt at Klassic Haus records this morning to say that he had located his copy of Okko Kamu's CBS LP of Pettersson's 6th Symphony and will be issuing a CD of it soon.
Pettersson's 2nd Violin Concerto is not easy to listen to. That is why I have created a listening guide. Will it be helpful?
For more and a link see:
https://unbekannte-violinkonzerte.jimdofree.com/--4/pettersson/
Quote from: Toni Bernet on June 19, 2023, 08:00:23 AMPettersson's 2nd Violin Concerto is not easy to listen to. That is why I have created a listening guide. Will it be helpful?
For more and a link see:
https://unbekannte-violinkonzerte.jimdofree.com/--4/pettersson/
Wow, nice! I just listened to that piece yesterday, but I'd love to hear it again soon while following along with your listening guide.
Like many, I became a big Pettersson fan in my youth during his heyday around the late 70's early 80's. For me the core of the cycle has always been nos. 5 to 9 (although 9 is arguably overlong) and Kamu's 6th remains my favourite recording of this composer despite the technical limitations. Most of the other symphonies I only know patchily if at all and I've only inconsistently investigated the newer recordings such as the Lindberg. I'm not sure if he's someone whose time has somewhat passed? But I know of at least one composer, Steve Elcock, where Pettersson is the single most important influence in many of his symphonies so he obviously still has something powerful to communicate.
Quote from: lunar22 on June 21, 2023, 01:06:32 AMLike many, I became a big Pettersson fan in my youth during his heyday around the late 70's early 80's. For me the core of the cycle has always been nos. 5 to 9 (although 9 is arguably overlong) and Kamu's 6th remains my favourite recording of this composer despite the technical limitations. Most of the other symphonies I only know patchily if at all and I've only inconsistently investigated the newer recordings such as the Lindberg. I'm not sure if he's someone whose time has somewhat passed? But I know of at least one composer, Steve Elcock, where Pettersson is the single most important influence in many of his symphonies so he obviously still has something powerful to communicate.
With you regarding Elcock's music. Big fan of that. I do still think that Pettersson has a great deal to offer, mind!
Quote from: lunar22 on June 21, 2023, 01:06:32 AMI'm not sure if he's someone whose time has somewhat passed? But I know of at least one composer, Steve Elcock, where Pettersson is the single most important influence in many of his symphonies so he obviously still has something powerful to communicate.
Christopher Rouse cited Pettersson as an influence, at least for his earlier symphonic work.
Much as I would love to hear one of AP's big symphonies live, the chance is vanishingly small. The only instance I know of a major American orchestra playing one of them was the performance of the 8th by the Chicago SO under Varuan Kojian, in 1982 (which BTW you can find on YouTube).
^Sergiu Comissiona also famously recorded the 8th with the Baltimore SO back in the '60s or '70s. I would love to see a Pettersson symphony live but I'm afraid I might need to go to Scandanavia to do so.
The 5th has grown immensely in my estimation recently. I have often heard people say "I only like Pettersson's symphonies from 6 and up". I haven't heard the first four, but I think 5 is very much on par with 6, 7 and 8. I also heard the 15th for the first time yesterday and enjoyed it. I have yet to make any headway with No.9.
I think it's impossible to make headway with No. 9. You just endure it. Same with No. 13.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 22, 2023, 06:09:34 AMI think it's impossible to make headway with No. 9. You just endure it. Same with No. 13.
My endurance is not yet up for the task then I'm afraid. It probably doesn't help that the recording I have is the longest one available (the Comissiona/Gothenburg).
When you listen to Allan Pettersson often and a lot, you start to see unexpected things. I was struck by the surprising similarities between some parts of the 9th symphony and Anthony Braxton's Ghost Trance Music recordings, such as Sextet (Istanbul) 1996 or the Ninetet (Yoshi's) 1997, etc.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 21, 2023, 03:03:54 PM^Sergiu Comissiona also famously recorded the 8th with the Baltimore SO back in the '60s or '70s. I would love to see a Pettersson symphony live but I'm afraid I might need to go to Scandanavia to do so.
The 5th has grown immensely in my estimation recently. I have often heard people say "I only like Pettersson's symphonies from 6 and up". I haven't heard the first four, but I think 5 is very much on par with 6, 7 and 8. I also heard the 15th for the first time yesterday and enjoyed it. I have yet to make any headway with No.9.
I'm inclined to agree. Although I heard no. 5 in my first survey of the symphonies way back, it was only fairly recently that I really got to appreciate and bought this one (the Francis recording with no.16). Curiously with no.9, I used to find it easier than I do these days when I fear I'm less patient. Elcock, who as already mentioned is hugely influenced by Pettersson, has no time for 9 at all, yet like you, regards no.5 as among the greatest.
Incidentally, although i lived in Sweden for the best part of 2 years during his heyday, I never got to see a Pettersson symphony live either.
With BIS's sale to Apple last week, it looks like there will be no more physical releases from the label. Sadly, what that means is that the Lindberg Pettersson cycle will be unfinished, at least for those of us who were collecting the CD/SACD releases.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 21, 2023, 09:45:26 AMChristopher Rouse cited Pettersson as an influence, at least for his earlier symphonic work.
Much as I would love to hear one of AP's big symphonies live, the chance is vanishingly small. The only instance I know of a major American orchestra playing one of them was the performance of the 8th by the Chicago SO under Varuan Kojian, in 1982 (which BTW you can find on YouTube).
Rouse's Symphony No. 1 quotes Pettersson's No. 7.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 12, 2023, 05:01:42 AMWith BIS's sale to Apple last week, it looks like there will be no more physical releases from the label. Sadly, what that means is that the Lindberg Pettersson cycle will be unfinished, at least for those of us who were collecting the CD/SACD releases.
But they're still releasing cds, with some coming out next month. All the staff have been retained, and nothing in the announcement said that they would stop releasing physical products. You might be right, but I think you're getting ahead of yourself.
Also they can still make new records even if they don't release them on outdated physical media.
Records vs recordings. Different animals.
Quote from: DavidW on September 12, 2023, 09:11:34 AMBut they're still releasing cds, with some coming out next month. All the staff have been retained, and nothing in the announcement said that they would stop releasing physical products. You might be right, but I think you're getting ahead of yourself.
On fora where Robert von Bahr participates personally, he has conspicuously avoided answering the question posed by many about whether BIS will continue with physical releases. And not only does the BIS website no longer offer physical media for sale, it doesn't even mention that BIS has produced physical media; it simply directs people to Apple Classical and eClassical. All that retaining staff means, is that the label still has its own recording personnel; production of the physical media was outsourced to the remaining plants, after all.
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 12, 2023, 10:34:57 AMAlso they can still make new records even if they don't release them on outdated physical media.
CD and SACD have a big advantage: you get the physical artifact if you like having that in your home, but you can also rip the media to your own personal digital collection. (Lots of people fond of the SACD format own a hacked player that can rip the SACD's surround-sound layer.) Meanwhile, with the sale to Apple, future BIS surround-sound recordings may be DRM-encumbered.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 12, 2023, 11:13:15 AMOn fora where Robert von Bahr participates personally, he has conspicuously avoided answering the question posed by many about whether BIS will continue with physical releases. And not only does the BIS website no longer offer physical media for sale, it doesn't even mention that BIS has produced physical media; it simply directs people to Apple Classical and eClassical. All that retaining staff means, is that the label still has its own recording personnel; production of the physical media was outsourced to the remaining plants, after all.
CD and SACD have a big advantage: you get the physical artifact if you like having that in your home, but you can also rip the media to your own personal digital collection. (Lots of people fond of the SACD format own a hacked player that can rip the SACD's surround-sound layer.) Meanwhile, with the sale to Apple, future BIS surround-sound recordings may be DRM-encumbered.
On what forum does he participate? The Pettersson BIS box was my single most anticipated box release.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 12, 2023, 11:13:15 AMOn fora where Robert von Bahr participates personally, he has conspicuously avoided answering the question posed by many about whether BIS will continue with physical releases.
I sadly have to take it back then... that does not sound good at all.
Managed to finally get my hands on the Segerstam recording of Symphonies Nos. 8 and 10!
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 05, 2023, 11:49:26 AMManaged to finally get my hands on the Segerstam recording of Symphonies Nos. 8 and 10!
That is my favorite Pettersson recording. 8)
I've been listening to the Pettersson symphonies again after 5 or so years and I find them just as good. I find it amazing that they are as compelling as they are because it's difficult to see what the hook is. Each symphony sounds like a set of variations without a theme, and yet the progression and the ending is unerring effective.
As was wondering if anyone who has the scores or has perfect pitch can comment on what is going on tonally. I note the symphonies aren't described as being in a particular key, so it probably isn't a case of returning to the home key... is it a case of progressive tonality (heading towards a particular key)?
Quote from: CRCulver on September 12, 2023, 05:01:42 AMWith BIS's sale to Apple last week, it looks like there will be no more physical releases from the label. Sadly, what that means is that the Lindberg Pettersson cycle will be unfinished, at least for those of us who were collecting the CD/SACD releases.
Very sorry to hear that!
As far as tonality goes, the only ones I can think of is B flat minor for the 6th Symphony and B minor for the 7th. The 8th gets stuck in a long passage of B flat minor in the second movement but ends in G sharp minor.
BIS is releasing a boxed set (https://bis.eclassical.com/label/bis/allan-pettersson-complete-edition.html) in January 2024 with the title "Allan Pettersson Complete Edition". This obviously means using the Segerstam recordings of the symphonies which Lindberg hasn't recorded. Makes me wonder if Lindberg's attempt at a complete cycle has been cut short.
I wonder if Lindberg would still continue on another label, because he very clearly has passion for this music and is a champion of Pettersson. Also interesting that they've still managed to record all of the symphonies, even if it is across two eras.
Quote from: CRCulver on December 01, 2023, 03:50:35 AMBIS is releasing a boxed set (https://bis.eclassical.com/label/bis/allan-pettersson-complete-edition.html) in January 2024 with the title "Allan Pettersson Complete Edition". This obviously means using the Segerstam recordings of the symphonies which Lindberg hasn't recorded. Makes me wonder if Lindberg's attempt at a complete cycle has been cut short.
And it includes the Barefoot Songs, concertos, chamber works... very impressive. It even includes that concerto for string quartet! Oh man!! You know Pettersson might make some good listening today...
Quote from: CRCulver on December 01, 2023, 03:50:35 AMBIS is releasing a boxed set (https://bis.eclassical.com/label/bis/allan-pettersson-complete-edition.html) in January 2024 with the title "Allan Pettersson Complete Edition". This obviously means using the Segerstam recordings of the symphonies which Lindberg hasn't recorded. Makes me wonder if Lindberg's attempt at a complete cycle has been cut short.
Three conductors mentioned: Christian Lindberg, Leif Segerstam, Stig Westerberg. Apparently Lindbergh won't complete his cycle. That's a shame.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on December 01, 2023, 09:15:39 AMThree conductors mentioned: Christian Lindberg, Leif Segerstam, Stig Westerberg. Apparently Lindbergh won't complete his cycle. That's a shame.
A shame indeed. Lindberg's recordings are the best I've heard, to my ears.
Listening to his choral 12th for the first time and enjoying it greatly. I suppose it's just about exactly as I expected it to be. Lindberg on BIS is the one I have.
I wonder if anyone has heard this recording:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk2NzAzMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 04, 2023, 02:32:20 PMA shame indeed. Lindberg's recordings are the best I've heard, to my ears.
Listening to his choral 12th for the first time and enjoying it greatly. I suppose it's just about exactly as I expected it to be. Lindberg on BIS is the one I have.
I wonder if anyone has heard this recording:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk2NzAzMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
I see it on Qobuz. Added to my Qobuz "favorites" for later.
https://open.qobuz.com/album/7391782213690
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 04, 2023, 02:32:20 PMA shame indeed. Lindberg's recordings are the best I've heard, to my ears.
Listening to his choral 12th for the first time and enjoying it greatly. I suppose it's just about exactly as I expected it to be. Lindberg on BIS is the one I have.
I wonder if anyone has heard this recording:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk2NzAzMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
I had this LP recording of the 12th Symphony 'The Dead in the Marketplace'. Even for me the work was a bit heavy going. I like symphonies 6, 7, 8 and the VC No.2.
I prefer the Honeck recording of the 12th, but the Lindberg is still fine. I have not heard the Larsson.
I am finally discovering Pettersson thanks to iTunes carrying the Complete Edition on BIS. So far, I have listened to the 8th and right now I am in the 4th. I am all in.
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 04, 2023, 02:32:20 PMA shame indeed. Lindberg's recordings are the best I've heard, to my ears.
Listening to his choral 12th for the first time and enjoying it greatly. I suppose it's just about exactly as I expected it to be. Lindberg on BIS is the one I have.
I wonder if anyone has heard this recording:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk2NzAzMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
Yes, that is the one I have. Having not heard any other versions, I do like this one.
Ah, the Carl Rune Larsson is new to me. Thank you for the recommendation 😊
I received the edition box set today. 17 sacds plus 4 dvds. One dvd is called "who the hell is Alan Pettersson?" an interview with him from 1974. It also includes a very thick booklet. And I like that BIS went that route. I have a box set of Brautigam's Mozart PCs from them where they included the individual booklets instead.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41DTKJxFiuL._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)
My Pettersson Complete (on BIS) box also arrived and it is a beautiful set, didn't realize they were also SACD, which is great!
From what I understood from Hurwitz's video BIS are continuing to record the symphonies in the incomplete cycle? Go BIS!
Quote from: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 05:43:30 AMI prefer the Honeck recording of the 12th, but the Lindberg is still fine. I have not heard the Larsson.
I haven't heard the Lindberg and Honeck relatively near each other but I too liked Honeck's performance. I suspect I'm going to have to buy the CPO box as well.
Really the only piece I clearly prefer is Ida Haendel in the Second VC to Wallin's.
Quote from: Atriod on February 02, 2024, 04:50:53 PMFrom what I understood from Hurwitz's video BIS are continuing to record the symphonies in the incomplete cycle? Go BIS!
That is good news because I don't think Lindberg even recorded my favorite one (the 8th), or at least I didn't see it in the box. The Segerstam is the only one in the box set. I mean love it, I think there is space for more recordings. Pettersson is not exactly represented like Mahler or Beethoven.
It would be a terrible shame if Lindberg doesn't get a shot all all the symphonies. His recordings have been very enjoyable to my ears.
I watched Who the Hell is Allan Pettersson? included in the box set. It was a close to hour interview with him discussing his interesting life. It was a real rags to riches story. Well I mean he didn't become wealthy. But he did start out poor and faced a great deal of adversity in his career.
It ended with a segment of Dorati conducting the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. It was knock your socks off great! I found a recording he did of the 7th and will give it a listen.
Since Pettersson mania is in full swing, I'd encourage people to email Eloquence Australia to get Comissiona's incredible performance of Symphony 8 reissued on CD (which would mean streaming as well). Eloquence are receptive to suggestions and did release a Fou Ts'ong box a couple of years after I suggested it (could be coincidence).
eloquence@umusic.com . I basically told them that there is a resurging interest in Pettersson and this could be a potential great seller.
I'll see if I can get my M-Audio USB ADC working with W11, I might be able to do a needle drop. I'm certain a CD release would sound better than my LP which starts to sound sort of wall of sound/compressed towards the 2/3 mark on each side.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vg1O9b5.jpeg)
Quote from: Atriod on February 11, 2024, 05:18:07 AMSince Pettersson mania is in full swing, I'd encourage people to email Eloquence Australia to get Comissiona's incredible performance of Symphony 8 reissued on CD (which would mean streaming as well). Eloquence are receptive to suggestions and did release a Fou Ts'ong box a couple of years after I suggested it (could be coincidence).
eloquence@umusic.com . I basically told them that there is a resurging interest in Pettersson and this could be a potential great seller.
I'll see if I can get my M-Audio USB ADC working with W11, I might be able to do a needle drop. I'm certain a CD release would sound better than my LP which starts to sound sort of wall of sound/compressed towards the 2/3 mark on each side.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vg1O9b5.jpeg)
I have that recording on LP. It is indeed amazing and was my introduction to Pettersson.
Great performance. And what a whopper of a double header with Götterdämmerung's Act 3 just before it.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/711lR77EPGL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)