'J' (Greg) from this forum alerted me to the qualities of Ropartz's 4th Symphony (1910-11), which I had but had hardly ever played - so I listened again and realised that I had been missing a very fine work. I have played it through about five times in the last few days. It is a very eloquent work and moving in an understated way - reminding me a bit of Cesar Franck, early Miaskovsky and of the music of his compatriot Tournemire, but still quite original in its way - certainly it kept me gripped throughout. Any other views or recommendations relating to this interesting French composer?
Quote from: vandermolen on September 12, 2010, 02:37:42 PM
'J' (Greg) from this forum alerted me to the qualities of Ropartz's 4th Symphony (1910-11), which I had but had hardly ever played - so I listened again and realised that I had been missing a very fine work. I have played it through about five times in the last few days. It is a very eloquent work and moving in an understated way - reminding me a bit of Cesar Franck, early Miaskovsky and of the music of his compatriot Tournemire, but still quite original in its way - certainly it kept me gripped throughout. Any other views or recommendations relating to this interesting French composer?
Well, there is quite a lot - more symphonies, chamber works, piano, etc. Like you, I only have the one above, but there is a second disc by the same group with two more symphonies.
I've not heard any myself but Sydney Grew should be able to inform us about his quartettes
http://www.r3ok.com/index.php/topic,37.msg82851.html#msg82851
I've had the 3rd under Plasson on EMI since about 1990 and always found it frightfully boring, which has dissuaded me from trying anything else by him.
(http://thierry.dran.free.fr/discographie/ropartz.jpg)
Quote from: erato on September 13, 2010, 01:44:17 AM
I've had the 3rd under Plasson on EMI since about 1990 and always found it frightfully boring, which has dissuaded me from trying anything else by him.
(http://thierry.dran.free.fr/discographie/ropartz.jpg)
I have the other CD with Symphony No 5 on,which did not (yet) mean much to me - but No 4 is a different matter I think, a genuinely inspired work, in my opinion.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2010, 01:48:04 AM
I have the other CD with Symphony No 5 on,which did not (yet) mean much to me - but No 4 is a different matter I think, a genuinely inspired work, in my opinion.
OK, then I'l have to buy it. My wife will thank you.
Quote from: erato on September 13, 2010, 01:50:20 AM
OK, then I'l have to buy it. My wife will thank you.
My pleasure - please pass on my greetings to her and reassure her that I will be keeping you fully informed of any essential CD purchases (I specialise in the extensive range of full price compact discs) Perhaps she could incorporate this information when determining the family budget. ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2010, 05:02:29 AM
(I specialise in the extensive range of full price compact discs)
With friends like you... ;D
I've always enjoyed R's
Prelude, Marine & Chanson (fl, hrp, SQ), but then, who wouldn't?
I've listened to all the amazon snippets of his SQs, and, they did have a certain quality to them, but I did not find them absolutely essential at the moment. I picked up the Complete D'Indy SQs, and said, I'm satisfied. Perhaps,... if R's Timpani discs didn't cost $24 a piece!! >:D
Well, he's not as wacky as Koechlin, and I don't know if he has D'Indy's melodic gift...
The 3rd symphony is definitely the odd one out in his cycle - it aims high and only succeeds if you're particularly interested in that drawn-out style. The Plasson disc is well recorded and performed, but I can't say I return to it often. Ropartz does seem to like to work with broad canvases, but usually of a managable size.
I also recommend his string quartets - I find them a lot more varied and innovative than, say, D'Indy, although his are very fine as well. Some of them have a slightly "modern" edge that could surprise the listener :)
He was also a writer of very worthy choral music which sound very integrated within the French tradition, and also a vitial edge which keeps them from being merely "functional" church music.
Edit: That is to say, often festive and celebratory and along the lines of Berlioz, Franck, Pierné - tempered with influences Fauré but not derivative as some composers such as Duruflé. But once again, this seemingly regressive music is infused with a modern touch and feels fully of its time and rather uniquely conceived as well.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 13, 2010, 06:23:50 AM
With friends like you... ;D
I've always enjoyed R's Prelude, Marine & Chanson (fl, hrp, SQ), but then, who wouldn't?
I've listened to all the amazon snippets of his SQs, and, they did have a certain quality to them, but I did not find them absolutely essential at the moment. I picked up the Complete D'Indy SQs, and said, I'm satisfied. Perhaps,... if R's Timpani discs didn't cost $24 a piece!! >:D
Well, he's not as wacky as Koechlin, and I don't know if he has D'Indy's melodic gift...
The Prelude, Marine, Chanson work sounds very interesting - never heard of it, so must investigate.
Quote from: Lethe on September 13, 2010, 08:05:39 AM
The 3rd symphony is definitely the odd one out in his cycle - it aims high and only succeeds if you're particularly interested in that drawn-out style. The Plasson disc is well recorded and performed, but I can't say I return to it often. Ropartz does seem to like to work with broad canvases, but usually of a managable size.
I also recommend his string quartets - I find them a lot more varied and innovative than, say, D'Indy, although his are very fine as well. Some of them have a slightly "modern" edge that could surprise the listener :)
He was also a writer of very worthy choral music which sound very integrated within the French tradition, and also a vitial edge which keeps them from being merely "functional" church music.
Edit: That is to say, often festive and celebratory and along the lines of Berlioz, Franck, Pierné - tempered with influences Fauré but not derivative as some composers such as Duruflé. But once again, this seemingly regressive music is infused with a modern touch and feels fully of its time and rather uniquely conceived as well.
Thank you for your considered and thoughtful view - I agree that '...this seemingly regressive music is infused with a modern touch...'
It's never mentioned, of course, but Ropartz's piano music is sometimes really superb - like many French composers of his time, the medium encourages his most adventurous, wilful side (I'm thinking of D'Indy, Florent Schmitt and so on, composers whose piano music is daring and liberated in a way that their ensemble music isn't and couldn't be). Ropartz's Nocturnes are real little belters, in particular - there's a gorgeously seductive one in 21/16 time, rocking away like an ocean swell, which I particularly adore playing through. THe IMSLP Ropartz page is stuffed with goodies like this...
Anyone have the Timpani Cycle of String Quartets? His is the last remaining French Cycle I haven't gotten to.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 13, 2013, 08:15:30 AM
Anyone have the Timpani Cycle of String Quartets? His is the last remaining French Cycle I haven't gotten to.
I do. :) The earlier ones are very Franckian, moody and chromatic, but the later ones are much lighter in tone, with influences from folk music and neoclassicism. I'll also put a plug in for Ropartz's fine symphonies, especially the majestic no. 3, made to sound like a near-masterpiece in Plasson's recording:
[asin]B00000DOCJ[/asin]
Quote from: kyjo on September 13, 2013, 11:22:16 AM
I do. :) The earlier ones are very Franckian, moody and chromatic, but the later ones are much lighter in tone, with influences from folk music and neoclassicism. I'll also put a plug in for Ropartz's fine symphonies, especially the majestic no. 3, made to sound like a near-masterpiece in Plasson's recording:
[asin]B00000DOCJ[/asin]
Thanks. Yes, I was interested in the later ones.
bump
Quote from: vandermolen on September 12, 2010, 02:37:42 PM
'J' (Greg) from this forum alerted me to the qualities of Ropartz's 4th Symphony (1910-11), which I had but had hardly ever played - so I listened again and realised that I had been missing a very fine work. I have played it through about five times in the last few days. It is a very eloquent work and moving in an understated way - reminding me a bit of Cesar Franck, early Miaskovsky and of the music of his compatriot Tournemire, but still quite original in its way - certainly it kept me gripped throughout. Any other views or recommendations relating to this interesting French composer?
Ropartz - Symphony No. 4http://www.youtube.com/v/G0TSYFBcG6c
Quote from: snyprrr on September 13, 2010, 06:23:50 AM
With friends like you... ;D
I've always enjoyed R's Prelude, Marine & Chanson (fl, hrp, SQ), but then, who wouldn't?
Ropartz - Prélude, Marine et ChansonsOsian Ellis (harp); Melos Ensemble
http://www.youtube.com/v/aBkVmeZdrWs
Quote from: snyprrr on September 13, 2010, 06:23:50 AMI've listened to all the amazon snippets of his SQs, and, they did have a certain quality to them, but I did not find them absolutely essential at the moment. I picked up the Complete D'Indy SQs, and said, I'm satisfied. Perhaps,... if R's Timpani discs didn't cost $24 a piece!! >:D
Well, he's not as wacky as Koechlin, and I don't know if he has D'Indy's melodic gift...
I'm listening to the symphonies (Nr. 3 right now) and I liked it. It isn't boring (as I saw in some commentary above), indeed is better than other choral symphonies. It has a great lyrical sense and there are showy moments.
Reviving this thread... just been listening to the Symphony No.5 and have been very impressed. It's a very simple lyrical work from 1945 and very old fashioned for the date, I guess. But because it is so simple it is timeless, in the my view (and not Romantic-fussy). Très belle, or perhaps pezh belec'h. And of course because of the date you can't help thinking of La France Libre at the same time.
Also have heard the String Trio from the 30s. Similar thoughts.
I guess I will work backwards through his works, although there is quite a gap between these late works and his other symphonies say (1-4 date from the 1890s to 1910). They might be less to my taste.
Just one question, what text(s) is he setting in the Symphony No.3?
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 20, 2023, 12:59:08 PMJust one question, what text(s) is he setting in the Symphony No.3?
It's his own. You can read it at the front of the score, which is on IMSLP.
Quote from: Luke on November 20, 2023, 07:48:34 PMIt's his own. You can read it at the front of the score, which is on IMSLP.
Great, thanks!
"In any case, with his Symphony No. 3, Guy Ropartz gives us his own conception of the world and life, with a text of his own which reveals his high literary as well as musical qualities. The first part of the work evokes the joyful awakening of nature, so important to Ropartz, from the depths of the night to the dazzling sun, illuminating the seas, the plains, the forests. In the second part, doubt about the human condition sets in: "Who will tell us the reason for living?..." A scherzo follows evoking human conflicts: four decades later, Honegger will remember it in his Symphony Liturgical. The third part, the most elaborate, and the heart of the score, is a call to Love and Justice: "Love one another, it is the only law, it is the whole science ..." It is clear that through his remarks, Ropartz wishes to universalize his thoughts, rather than only associate it with this news item, however important it was, of the Dreyfus Affair. And it is even more disappointing and dismaying to note that a century later, the beautiful and noble ideal of Guy Ropartz is still far from being achieved..."
Source: https://www.resmusica.com/2011/11/16/integrale-des-cinq-grandes-symphonies-de-joseph-guy-ropartz/
I'll try to find the complete text.
1
La nuit 's achève...Les étoiles, l'une après l'une, se perdent dans l'aube naissante...Des brumes flottent, puis s'effacent...
Et sur la Mer, et sur la plaine, et sur la Forêt, le ciel s'éclaire, le Soleil parait et son éclatante lumière embrase la nature et la joie!
2
Nature, nature, que t'importe, en ta joie, la détresse des coeurs humains?
O mer calme, tes calmes flots, pareils à des moires changeantes, frôlent les grèves mollement de leur caresse insoucieuse...Et pourtant les frêles vaisseaux, bercés sur tes vagues tranquilles sont porteurs de détresse humaine!...
O plaine, sous les brises tièdes, tu frissonnes de volupté dans ta chevelure d'epis qu'alourdit le grain déja mûr...Et pourtant les larmes des hommes, aux heures du labour pénible, ont fécondé ton sol aride!...
O Forêt, ton âme joyeuse joyeusement palpite et chante dans les feuillages qui bruissent et dans la chanson des oiseaux....Et pourtant l'ombre des de tes chênes s'étendit sur les vains autels ou l'homme implorait des dieux sourds!...
Soleil, tu resplendis...Mais ta lumière est impuissante à percer la nuit de nos coeurs!...
Qui nous dira la raison de vivre.....Souffrir!...Souffrir!....en nos corps, en nos coeurs!...Pourquoi?...
L'homme foule aux pieds l'homme, d'incessants combats nous èpuisent. Opprimés sous des lois qu'imposent les plus forts, asservis par des rois, écrasés par des maîtres, nous pleurons, nul ne nous console, nous crions, nul ne nous écoute et nos yeux sont las de regarder au ciel, dans l'attente vaine et le vain espoir qu'un Dieu se montre enfin!...
3
Pauvres humains, coeurs misérables, votre mal est en vous.
Chacun gémit sur sa propre détresse, chacun se cherche en soi, chacun s'aime soi-même et cet amour n'engendre que la haine.
Aimez-vous les uns les autres, et vous pénetrerez la vie, aimez-vous les uns les autres, c'est l'unique loi, c'est la toute science, aimez-vous les uns les autres!
Pour que votre souffrance vous soit douce, soulagez la souffrance des autres. Que votre labeur, librement accepté, s'efforce au bonheur de vos frères, il vous sera léger. Revétez-vous d'amour et de justice, ouvrez votre âme à la bonté!
-
Verbe divin, verbe consolateur! La nuit ou nous marchions s'éclaire, le voile d'ombre se déchire, et voici qu'au soir de l'humanité une aurore nouvelle apparait sur le monde!
Aimons-nous les uns les autres! La justice et la vérité, la paix et la bonté se partagent sur la terre.
Aimons nous les uns les autres ! L'humanité transformée monte vers la cité de joie et d'idéale liberté ou les rois ne sont plus, ni les maîtres, ou l'unique loi d'amour a remplacé les lois désormais inutiles!
O nature, maintenant sois en fête! O nature mêle ta joie a la joie immense des hommes!...
O Mer calme, sur tes flots calmes balance les vaisseaux heureux qui portent l'allégresse humaine!
O Plaine, offre au désir des hommes la splendeur de tes épis d'or qui s'allourdissent de grain mûr!
O Forêt, que ton âme chante dans les feuillages qui bruissent et dans la chanson des oiseaux à la gloire des nouveaux autels!
Et toi, Soleil, lêve-toi radieux!unis ta lumière éclatante aux feux de l'idéal Soleil de Vérité, de Justice et d'Amour!
J.Guy Ropartz (1905-1906)
Wow, quite a program! Lets see how I can translate this....
1
The night is ending...The stars, one after one, are lost in the breaking dawn...Mists float, then fade away...
And on the Sea, and on the plain, and on the Forest, the sky lights up, the Sun appears and its dazzling light sets nature and joy ablaze!
2
Nature, nature, what does the distress of human hearts matter to you in your joy?
O calm sea, your calm waves, like changing moires, gently brush against the shores with their carefree caress...And yet the frail vessels, rocked on your calm waves, are bearers of human distress!...
O plain, under the warm breezes, you shiver with pleasure in your corn hair weighed down by the already ripe grain...And yet the tears of men, in the hours of painful plowing, have fertilized your arid soil!...
O Forest, your joyful soul joyfully palpitates and sings in the rustling foliage and in the song of the birds....And yet the shadow of your oaks extended over the vain altars where man implored deaf gods! ...
Sun, you shine...But your light is powerless to pierce the darkness of our hearts!...
Who will tell us the reason for living.....Suffering!...Suffering!....in our bodies, in our hearts!...Why?...
Man tramples on man, incessant fighting exhausts us. Oppressed under laws imposed by the strongest, enslaved by kings, crushed by masters, we cry, no one consoles us, we cry, no one listens to us and our eyes are tired of looking up to the sky, waiting in vain and the vain hope that a God will finally show himself!...
3
Poor humans, miserable hearts, your evil is within you.
Everyone moans about their own distress, everyone searches for themselves, everyone loves themselves and this love only breeds hatred.
Love one another, and you will penetrate life, love one another, it is the only law, it is all science, love one another!
To make your suffering sweet to you, relieve the suffering of others. Let your work, freely accepted, strive for the happiness of your brothers, it will be light to you. Clothe yourself with love and justice, open your soul to kindness!
Divine word, comforting word! The night where we were walking lights up, the veil of darkness is torn, and behold, in the evening of humanity a new dawn appears on the world!
Let's love each other! Justice and truth, peace and goodness are shared on earth.
Let's love each other! Transformed humanity ascends towards the city of joy and ideal freedom where kings are no longer, nor masters, where the unique law of love has replaced the now useless laws!
O nature, now be festive! O nature mix your joy with the immense joy of men!...
O calm sea, on your calm waves swing the happy vessels that carry human joy!
O Plain, offer to the desire of men the splendor of your golden ears which are weighed down with ripe grain!
O Forest, may your soul sing in the rustling foliage and in the song of the birds to the glory of the new altars!
And you, Sun, arise radiant! unite your dazzling light to the fires of the ideal Sun of Truth, Justice and Love!
:) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Delville%2C_Jean_%28Belgian%2C_1867-1953%291.jpg)
Jean Delville : L'amour des âmes (1900)...has nothing to do with Ropartz. however, I think that it fits well ...
Quote from: pjme on November 21, 2023, 07:19:37 AM1
The night is ending...The stars, one after one, are lost in the breaking dawn...Mists float, then fade away...
And on the Sea, and on the plain, and on the Forest, the sky lights up, the Sun appears and its dazzling light sets nature and joy ablaze!
2
Nature, nature, what does the distress of human hearts matter to you in your joy?
O calm sea, your calm waves, like changing moires, gently brush against the shores with their carefree caress...And yet the frail vessels, rocked on your calm waves, are bearers of human distress!...
O plain, under the warm breezes, you shiver with pleasure in your corn hair weighed down by the already ripe grain...And yet the tears of men, in the hours of painful plowing, have fertilized your arid soil!...
O Forest, your joyful soul joyfully palpitates and sings in the rustling foliage and in the song of the birds....And yet the shadow of your oaks extended over the vain altars where man implored deaf gods! ...
Sun, you shine...But your light is powerless to pierce the darkness of our hearts!...
Who will tell us the reason for living.....Suffering!...Suffering!....in our bodies, in our hearts!...Why?...
Man tramples on man, incessant fighting exhausts us. Oppressed under laws imposed by the strongest, enslaved by kings, crushed by masters, we cry, no one consoles us, we cry, no one listens to us and our eyes are tired of looking up to the sky, waiting. vain and the vain hope that a God will finally show himself!...
3
Poor humans, miserable hearts, your evil is within you.
Everyone moans about their own distress, everyone searches for themselves, everyone loves themselves and this love only breeds hatred.
Love one another, and you will penetrate life, love one another, it is the only law, it is all science, love one another!
To make your suffering sweet to you, relieve the suffering of others. Let your work, freely accepted, strive for the happiness of your brothers, it will be light to you. Clothe yourself with love and justice, open your soul to kindness!
Divine word, comforting word! The night where we were walking lights up, the veil of darkness is torn, and behold, in the evening of humanity a new dawn appears on the world!
Let's love each other! Justice and truth, peace and goodness are shared on earth.
Let's love each other! Transformed humanity ascends towards the city of joy and ideal freedom where kings are no longer, nor masters, where the unique law of love has replaced the now useless laws!
O :) nature, now be festive! O nature mix your joy with the immense joy of men!...
O calm sea, on your calm waves swing the happy vessels that carry human joy!
O Plain, offer to the desire of men the splendor of your golden ears which are weighed down with ripe grain!
O Forest, may your soul sing in the rustling foliage and in the song of the birds to the glory of the new altars!
And you, Sun, arise radiant! unite your dazzling light to the fires of the ideal Sun of Truth, Justice and Love!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Delville%2C_Jean_%28Belgian%2C_1867-1953%291.jpg)
They don't write 'em like that any more!
Can't wait to listen :)
8)
Yep, I have been continuing to listen to Ropartz. I still prefer his later work, but his earlier works aren't shabby either. The 3rd Symphony is great, the writing is superb and some of the climaxes are Brucknerian in grandeur. It reminds me of Vaughan William's Sea Symphony, not in style, but in the way that a large-scale work to fervent words shouldn't really work, but does!
My favorite symphony of his is the vocal 3rd, which contains some life-affirming and often exciting music. The other symphonies have their moments, but overall aren't as memorable and are rather lacking in a distinguished personality IMO. Of his chamber works I've heard, I've enjoyed the Prelude, marine, et chansons (for that lovely French combo for flute, harp, and string trio) and the two cello sonatas. Must admit I haven't heard any of his string quartets...
There is also pretty good music in his string quartets, piano trio, violin sonatas, the tone poem La Chasse du Prince Arthur and apart from the 3rd Symphony (a favorite of mine too) I also rank his 4th highly. A quite eloquent and poetic piece as far as I remember.