GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM

Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
This thread is a haven where you can go against the grain without fear of persecution. Let it all out.

The Classical Era is my least favorite era. I'm generalizing, but the diatonicism is banal to me. Generally if I can hum along to a melody the first time I hear it, it's not very interesting. I like chromaticism more as part of the harmony, as opposed to simple ornamentation.  I think this era may have the biggest lack of depth as far as relevant composers go, i.e., after the greats the drop-off is pretty big.

Domenico Scarlatti is a giant of music who was ahead of his time. This probably wouldn't qualify as unpopular if his works received more attention. I've heard people say that Bach is the only Baroque composer worth noting.

Rachmaninoff's orchestral music far surpasses his piano work, including the concertos (though obviously there's overlap there). After Alkan and Liszt I don't have much use for that style of virtuoso piano music. Those symphonies, though, are exquisite.

Beethoven is long-winded. Still one of my favorites, but it's pretty tough to slog through a lot of those slow movements. I mean, we get it already. Move on. And then the repeats!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2011, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AMBeethoven is long-winded. Still one of my favorites, but it's pretty tough to slog through a lot of those slow movements. I mean, we get it already. Move on. And then the repeats!



:'(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Cato on November 11, 2011, 11:15:19 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
This thread is a haven where you can go against the grain without fear of persecution. Let it all out.

The Classical Era is my least favorite era. I'm generalizing, but the diatonicism is banal to me. Generally if I can hum along to a melody the first time I hear it, it's not very interesting. I like chromaticism more as part of the harmony, as opposed to simple ornamentation.  I think this era may have the biggest lack of depth as far as relevant composers go, i.e., after the greats the drop-off is pretty big.


I must admit that my CD collection is thin on the era as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2011, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
The Classical Era is my least favorite era.

I don't have much against the classical era (it has it's own strengths) but German middle baroque is a sadly ignored period in music history. More attention to Kuhnau, less attention to Haydn.

Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AMDomenico Scarlatti is a giant of music who was ahead of his time.

Domenico's father Alessandro was a damn good composer too (600 chamber cantatas).


Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AMI've heard people say that Bach is the only Baroque composer worth noting.

That's because people are so damn stupid and ignorant. There are dozens of substantial (but often unknown) baroque composers. I'll mention just one: Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel (1690-1749), who's chamber cantatas I am exploring at the moment. Absolutely awesome stuff!  :o

Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AMRachmaninoff's orchestral music far surpasses his piano work, including the concertos (though obviously there's overlap there). After Alkan and Liszt I don't have much use for that style of virtuoso piano music. Those symphonies, though, are exquisite.

I don't find Rachmaninov's music that interesting apart from his best work: The Bells, Op. 35. His teacher, S.I. Taneyev is much more interesting composer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on November 11, 2011, 11:27:53 AM
Chamber music is more interesting than orchestral music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 11, 2011, 11:44:51 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 11, 2011, 11:27:53 AM
Chamber music is more interesting than orchestral music.

I thought everybody knew that ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 11, 2011, 11:44:57 AM
Mozart was a hack who didn't really write the music attributed to him.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 11, 2011, 11:46:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 11, 2011, 11:44:51 AM
I thought everybody knew that ; )

they are both fascinating... considerably more so than opera...  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 11, 2011, 11:49:54 AM
I probably like Monk's Columbia albums even better than the earlier stuff.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 12:01:09 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 11, 2011, 11:49:54 AM
I probably like Monk's Columbia albums even better than the earlier stuff.

Now that's an underground opinion if ever I've heard one!  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Daverz on November 11, 2011, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
Beethoven is long-winded. Still one of my favorites, but it's pretty tough to slog through a lot of those slow movements. I mean, we get it already. Move on. And then the repeats!

The only Beethoven slow movements that I have problems with are in the Eroica and the 9th.  In particular the adagio of the 9th doesn't seem to have interesting enough themes for its length. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Daverz on November 11, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 11, 2011, 11:44:57 AM
Mozart was a hack who didn't really write the music attributed to him.

His music was really composed by Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2011, 12:30:29 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 11, 2011, 11:25:00 AM
More attention to Kuhnau, less attention to Haydn.

Domenico's father Alessandro was a damn good composer too (600 chamber cantatas).

I don't care for Bach, Johann Sebastian. Freakin' boring. ::)  If it's Baroque it's Vivaldi or Biber. Just sayin'... :)

I don't care for Kuhnau. I'll take Haydn any day (over most anyone).

Beethoven is the 3rd best composer around, after Haydn and Mozart. How can he seem long-winded after you've listened to Bach?

There are probably only a half-dozen composers after Schubert died who are worth spending my money on. And not of lot of it.

Are those unpopular enough for you?  :D

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zmic on November 11, 2011, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
This thread is a haven where you can go against the grain without fear of persecution. Let it all out.

1. The Goldberg Variations are the only boring thing that Bach ever wrote.
2. After Beethoven, only Mahler wrote symphonies that are worth listening too.
3. Glenn Gould's recording of Mozart's piano sonatas are actually quite enjoyable.

I feel so much better now!

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 01:17:36 PM
What I really hate is when musicians perform some notes identically only because they are identical.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 01:20:43 PM
I'm inclined to lean, now and again, towards a slight tilt shadingly away from--

No, I just can't do it!  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 01:31:13 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 11, 2011, 12:30:29 PM
There are probably only a half-dozen composers after Schubert died who are worth spending my money on.

There are probably less than a half-dozen recordings of music composed not by Schubert which are worth spending my money on.

Not because of music quality but because of basic concepts about interpretation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ten thumbs on November 11, 2011, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM

The Classical Era is my least favorite era. I'm generalizing, but the diatonicism is banal to me. Generally if I can hum along to a melody the first time I hear it, it's not very interesting. I like chromaticism more as part of the harmony, as opposed to simple ornamentation.  I think this era may have the biggest lack of depth as far as relevant composers go, i.e., after the greats the drop-off is pretty big.

Domenico Scarlatti is a giant of music who was ahead of his time. This probably wouldn't qualify as unpopular if his works received more attention. I've heard people say that Bach is the only Baroque composer worth noting.


Yes, BUT, the reason D. Scarlatti was ahead of his time is that a substantial number of his output of keyboard sonatas are classical in style!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 01:41:40 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 11, 2011, 11:44:57 AM
Mozart was a hack who didn't really write the music attributed to him.

God, don't do that, lest you might summon him who is not to be named.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Wanderer on November 11, 2011, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 01:17:36 PM
What I really hate is when musicians perform some notes identically only because they are identical.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: cilgwyn on November 11, 2011, 01:49:51 PM
Charles Stanfords music is crap!
York Bowen's music is crap!
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf was an overrated battle axe!
Cello concerto's are dreary and mawkish sounding.
The Dream of Gerontius is dreary,dated,gloomy and mawkish.
Kathleen Ferrier sounds like a trombone with a cold.
Ravel is dreary,depressing and glutinous.
Debussy is depressing and gloomy.
Wagner is pompous and boring.
Bernstein was an overrated,big headed show off.
Emi.Decca & all the other major recording labels are outdated,pointless and crap!
Downloading,Mp3's & burning are tedious and boring. Bring back cassette recording & just pressing play & record!

And I really won't get banned for this,or have GMG members hunting me down with a baseball bat? :o
I'm only joking,of course!!!! :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 01:53:09 PM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on November 11, 2011, 01:38:45 PM
Yes, BUT, the reason D. Scarlatti was ahead of his time is that a substantial number of his output of keyboard sonatas are classical in style!

Almost, but not quite. Scarlatti's genius rested in his infinite wealth of invention in regards to harmony and modulation. This at times pushed his sonatas towards unorthodox directions. His late sonatas are proof that you can write harmonically daring compositions without relying on chromaticism. Sometimes context alone can suffice.

BTW, Scarlatti's father is way, way below his son in terms of genius. Just wanted to say that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 01:57:19 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 11, 2011, 12:30:29 PM
I don't care for Bach, Johann Sebastian. Freakin' boring. ::)  If it's Baroque it's Vivaldi or Biber. Just sayin'... :)

You are boring. And Biber is freaking irritating. That, or performers really like to take the whole scordatura thing out of proportions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: max on November 11, 2011, 01:59:03 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM

Beethoven is long-winded. Still one of my favorites, but it's pretty tough to slog through a lot of those slow movements. I mean, we get it already. Move on. And then the repeats!

...I couldn't agree more, especially on the repeats since I probably got 5 versions of most of what he wrote! But one thing's for sure...at least for me...that Beethoven like Bruckner was one of the supreme masters of the the slow movement and it's mostly these that call my attention to ATTENTION especially in the quartets!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: zmic on November 11, 2011, 01:10:47 PM
1. The Goldberg Variations are the only boring thing that Bach ever wrote.

No.

Bach wrong a few boring things, all of them in his early years. We are excluding from the equation those works which he wrote with no particular ambition in mind, which don't count anyway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 02:04:52 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
I've heard people say that Bach is the only Baroque composer worth noting.

Bach, Handel, Scarlatti, Rameau and Zelenka. Just with those the Baroque has the classical period beaten to a pulp. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Bulldog on November 11, 2011, 02:13:06 PM
Vivaldi sucks.

I don't hate many transcriptions, but I really hate the motivation behind them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2011, 02:24:06 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 02:04:52 PM
Bach, Handel, Scarlatti, Rameau and Zelenka. Just with those the Baroque has the classical period beaten to a pulp.

Yes, and we haven't even mentioned such earlier masters as Buxtehude and M.-A. Charpentier!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 11, 2011, 02:35:34 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 11, 2011, 02:24:06 PM
Yes, and we haven't even mentioned such earlier masters as Buxtehude and M.-A. Charpentier!

I don't think it's a competition between styles.  But really people look at the baroque as lasting 150 years and normally look at the classical period as being far shorter so it isn't a good comparison.  The influence of music from the classical period reached far into the romantic period and beyond though with forms like the symphony, quartet and the piano sonata.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 11, 2011, 02:45:51 PM
This will be a great thread to be part of... :)

By the way, anyone to insult Mahler shall be hammered!  ;D

I find quite a lot of Haydn and Mozart incredibly boring.... the same for much later composers such as Stravinsky (apart from a few works which I love dearly)...

Andris Nelsons is a wonderful, great conductor! - who cares about the appalling technique?!

I promise to be back soon with more! 
Quote from: toucan on November 11, 2011, 02:40:02 PM
Shostakovich is grossly overrated, imitative, constricted, vulgar and even cheap.


No.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: max on November 11, 2011, 02:50:14 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 02:04:52 PM
Bach, Handel, Scarlatti, Rameau and Zelenka. Just with those the Baroque has the classical period beaten to a pulp.

...so that would exclude from "their" hierarchy anyone who followed? As long as humans exist there are "Masters" who don't create for just one age or one style. What they do have in common is that their works remain contemporary regardless of any "period" they were written in. Those who follow are not in any way inferior to those who preceded and especially so in this case. Preferences are personal but assertions like these are idiotic.
 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on November 11, 2011, 03:16:46 PM
Shostakovich is the most complete composer since Beethoven.
Brahms' First Symphony is blustery, overambitious, and underdistinguished.
Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra is frigid and boring.
Op 95 may be Beethoven's most perfect achievement.
Most of today's "neo-romantics" are not neo-romantic in the slightest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on November 11, 2011, 03:23:29 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 11, 2011, 02:45:51 PM
No.

Get thee popular opinions out of here! ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 11, 2011, 03:44:14 PM
Ubloobideega's op.2342 I Eat My Eyeball Poopoo is the best work ever.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on November 11, 2011, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 11, 2011, 03:16:46 PM
Most of today's "neo-romantics" are not neo-romantic in the slightest.

I too have problems with this designation, and other ones well. The neo-Romantic description is thrown at anything that is not avant-garde and it doesn't feel particularly helpful. It covers anything from populist, pretentious, light music, heavy music - just, what? -_-

Another issue I have is how musical history has made it impossible to describe the composers between Wagner and the post WW2-serialists, who wrote tonally not as a "reaction" but as a continuation of their tradition; a composer of Romantic-sounding tonal music, post WW2 would largely be a reactionary figure, composing music he prefers and swimming against the tide. But all the way up to WW2 there were composers writing like this because this remained the tradition in which they worked, and yet "Late Romanticism" had already supposedly been torn to the seams and surpassed by 1915.

But inter-war composers such as EJ Moeran or Arnold Bax didn't see themselves as railing against the current trends - they were writing in a personal language which came naturally to them and they felt was relevent, and yet there is no designation for these other than a kind of sneering "belated-tonal", as they fall beyond the musico-historical cut-off point for (already Late) Romanticism. They don't really fit into that period either, as their music - while indebted to Wagner and others (as were some progressives) - sounds considerably different to what had come before, as by now the influence of composers such as Debussy and Bartók had been absorbed.

There seems to be an entire period of music running from 1915-1945, parallel to the avant-garde, which is as difficult to describe as "Neo-Romantic" composers from later years are. Only an OCD person such as myself could have quite such a problem with this, mind ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Cato on November 11, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
Prokofiev composed SIX (6) symphonies, and no more than SIX (6).   :o

Any claims to the contrary are just wrong!   0:)

There, I have stated my unpopular opinion!  And I'm glad, I tell you!  Glad!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 11, 2011, 04:45:34 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 11, 2011, 03:46:53 PM
inter-war composers such as EJ Moeran or Arnold Bax didn't see themselves as railing against the current trends - they were writing in a personal language which came naturally to them and they felt was relevent, and yet there is no designation for these other than a kind of sneering "belated-tonal", as they fall beyond the musico-historical cut-off point for (already Late) Romanticism. They don't really fit into that period either, as their music - while indebted to Wagner and others (as were some progressives) - sounds considerably different to what had come before, as by now the influence of composers such as Debussy and Bartók had been absorbed.
QFT

Schumann wrote a couple of good pieces but he's probably the most overrated composer in all of music history.
Schubert wrote a few more good ones, but he's nearly as overrated as Schumann.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 11, 2011, 05:03:12 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 11, 2011, 03:46:53 PM
There seems to be an entire period of music running from 1915-1945, parallel to the avant-garde, which is as difficult to describe as "Neo-Romantic" composers from later years are. Only an OCD person such as myself could have quite such a problem with this, mind ;D

Basically we've run out of nice labels to describe music. Ironic because there are tons of superfluous genres and sub-genres now, with the post-this and neo-that and polystylism, and none of it sounds good. After the Romantic Era is the 20th Century, and there's no good word to describe it.

"Serious music" and "art music" are terrible alternatives to the collective "classical music."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: BobsterLobster on November 11, 2011, 06:24:16 PM
Mahler bores me stupid, I'm not particularly keen on most Mozart, and I don't really like Classical symphonic music all that much.  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 06:36:43 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 05:03:12 PM
"Serious music" and "art music" are terrible alternatives to the collective "classical music."

Academic.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 06:49:23 PM
There is no grammar.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2011, 07:03:54 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 11, 2011, 02:45:51 PMBy the way, anyone to insult Mahler shall be hammered!  ;D

:P I saw this post and I nearly busted out laughing, Daniel. Very, very funny...

Anyway, no I will not say anything too bad about Mahler ;), but what I will say is that his music grates on my nerves. It's so all over the place emotionally. Up and down, up and down, up and down....

It drives me crazy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2011, 07:05:26 PM
I really can't stand the Baroque and Classical Eras. I'm not too big of fan of early Romantic either. For me, it's harmonically uninteresting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 07:12:50 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 11, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
Prokofiev composed SIX (6) symphonies, and no more than SIX (6).   :o

Any claims to the contrary are just wrong!   0:)

There, I have stated my unpopular opinion!  And I'm glad, I tell you!  Glad!!!   ;D

Yes, yes, that's it.

But this You Know What how is it called by those who can't recognize the facts?

I mean which number.

(1-7)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 07:15:00 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 07:12:50 PM
(1-7)

?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on November 11, 2011, 08:24:02 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on November 11, 2011, 07:15:00 PM
?

He dislikes the ending of No 7.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on November 11, 2011, 08:58:08 PM
With some great exceptions the Classical period bores me also. In addition to its other shortcomings already described, such as the maddening reliance on tonic-dominant, its preference for building using short repeated figures at the expense of longer lines can drive me crazy.

The great influence of Classical period forms like sonata form on the Romantics was not necessarily a good one. Charles Rosen has written of how sonata form in the Romantic period was often an empty shell that had lost its vitality, and ran counter to the Romantics' need to write in freer melodic patterns. Schubert for one might not have wandered around so long in his movements had he not been seeking to fill out a form not really suited to his more melodic talents. His lieder succeed better because they're more natural to him. The one Romantic composer who really used sonata form as a still-living structure was Brahms, who of course was not a typical Romantic composer but a sort of throwback to earlier periods, though a very great one.

Louis Armstrong's Hot Five records while famous are still generally unappreciated as supreme works of American genius and are mostly unlistened to. I have found they throw off new little details to appreciate for the first time even after 56 years of listening. His trumpet improvising after 1930 was almost always on a much lower level.

Beethoven bores me with his dramatic self-righteous insistent morality which comes thru clearly even in the non-program music.

Bach is boring sometimes, especially in arias that are not particularly inspired but written out to a predetermined standard form with their very long repetitions. But on the other hand the number of really great works he wrote is enormous. Someone who does not "get" him is entitled to his opinion but is really missing out on a heck of a lot of supremely great music.

Rachmaninoff's music has mostly a single theme: lachrymose self-pity.

Hemingway is a great writer so unappealing in character and personality that I decline to even try him.

Likewise Woody Allen. Someone who with the whole wide world before him could not find anyone to marry except his childrens' sister is the ultimate in narcissistic uncaring self-absorption, practically to the point of criminality. The children he parented, especially his two biological children who do not speak to him, are probably facing lives as difficult as those subjected to sex abuse. How the literati and elites still honor him and fawn to him is to me indicative of a pretty sick culture.

Probably drifting into Diner territory here, so I'll stop.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 11, 2011, 11:07:32 PM
I suppose every era has its tropes or habits and people may grow to accept them or they may grate.  But I think the classical era could have some nice fluent melodic lines in the songlike lyricism of the  slow movements.  And Charles Rosen can say what he wants but my ears will decide for themselves.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2011, 07:05:26 PM
I really can't stand the Baroque and Classical Eras. I'm not too big of fan of early Romantic either. For me, it's harmonically uninteresting.

Haha, you have no idea what harmony is, do you. Bach harmonically uninteresting, hahahaha. Freaking 20th century ideologues man.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 12, 2011, 12:32:20 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 11, 2011, 08:24:02 PM
He dislikes the ending of No 7.

Oh, yes. Wich one?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 12:58:59 AM
Quote from: starrynight on November 11, 2011, 02:35:34 PM
I don't think it's a competition between styles.  But really people look at the baroque as lasting 150 years and normally look at the classical period as being far shorter so it isn't a good comparison.  The influence of music from the classical period reached far into the romantic period and beyond though with forms like the symphony, quartet and the piano sonata.

Renaissance lasted 200 years. The world gets quicker (more/better technology that allows us to do things faster). In "modern dance music" there was a HUGE amount of fast development between years 1988 and 1995:

:
1988   Acid House (late renaissance/early baroque like Monteverdi would be the equivalent)
1989   Hip House/early Rave (Schütz)
1990   Rave (Rosenmüller/Tunder/Weckmann)
1991   Hardcore Rave (Buxtehude)
1992   Breakbeat House (the high point of modern dance music like J.S. Bach and Handel of baroque)
1993   Darkside/early Jungle ("early galant" composers like Fasch and Hasse)
1994   Jungle (C.P.E. Bach)
1995   Drum 'n' Bass (Haydn)
:
:

The Thirty Years' War 1618-1648 delayed the development of northern Europe baroque.

The problem is that in our culture it is a "given fact" that Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were geniuses while one has to find out about the wonders of baroque between Schütz and Bach. No wonder composers like Bruhns, Kuhnau, Tunder and Weckmann are so unknown. I am not saying that Tunder is as great as Mozart (he is not). I am saying that ignoring the most part of baroque gives people the impression that J.S. Bach is pretty much all baroque has to offer.

Remarkable classical era composers shouldn't be ignored (or laughed at) either and that's why I have been speaking for Dittersdorf on this forum.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 12, 2011, 01:24:11 AM
It's easier for music critics to make their histories by just focussing on a few composers and ignoring the rest.  And that's all the more reason to not take them as gospel. 

Over time developments have perhaps accelerated.  The Medieval period will have been longer than the Renaissance.  Lots of developments of course don't necessarily mean lots of great music as you need styles to be explored in depth more for the full potential of them to be revealed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: david johnson on November 12, 2011, 03:56:12 AM
This thread is a sweet example of pooled ignorance  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 05:03:17 AM
There are musical reasons why we listen to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven much more than to their contemporaries — it's not just some conspiracy of oppression.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:11:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2011, 05:03:17 AM
There are musical reasons why we listen to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven much more than to their contemporaries — it's not just some conspiracy of oppression.

Is there a musical reason too why many listen to Lady Gaga much more than to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven ?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Szykneij on November 12, 2011, 05:14:39 AM
I own a Zamfir CD. I like it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:16:35 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:11:58 AM
Is there a musical reason too why many listen to Lady Gaga much more than to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven ?

No, that's just because most people are that dumb/ignorant.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:18:42 AM
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 05:03:29 AM
Just in case you're not joking ..

J.S. Bach is unparalleled as far as harmonic profundity is concerned, all music is rendered harmonically tame in comparison. Things do generally drop off after Baroque (which I love) .. i.e. 'Classical Era' (a big BIG yawner for me too) .. then they pickup again with Wagner who's absolutely sublime and harmonically 'profound'.

This statement is once again nonsensical. Is the music of Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin etc. not harmonically profound? The first two could for instance run circles around Wagner in terms of contrapuntal mastery. Is that not profound? Why do people keep confusing technique with profundity? Is a second rate 20th century composer somehow more profound and complex then a Beethoven, due exclusively to his 20th century technical baggage?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Szykneij on November 12, 2011, 05:23:54 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
This thread is a haven where you can go against the grain without fear of persecution.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:39:58 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:16:35 AM
No, that's just because most people are that dumb/ignorant.

Exactly the answers I was expecting (it was a rhetoric question you know).

How about considering the possibility that Vanhal, Dittersdorf and Hofmann are almost as good as Haydn but much less listened because most people into classical music are that ignorant?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 05:42:10 AM
Quote from: Chaszz on November 11, 2011, 08:58:08 PM
Hemingway is a great writer so unappealing in character and personality that I decline to even try him.
Guess you've never heard Wagner's music, either.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 05:43:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:11:58 AM
Is there a musical reason too why many listen to Lady Gaga much more than to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven ?
Perhaps.  Let's see if they're still listening to Gaga 200 years from now.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:44:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:39:58 AM
How about considering the possibility that Vanhal, Dittersdorf and Hofmann are almost as good as Haydn but much less listened because most people into classical music are that ignorant?

Its an illogical position. Those who listens to Haydn are the ones who do not listen to Lady Gaga, that is, the intelligent and knowledgeable ones. We would expect such individuals to be of a more discerning kind even within the confines of their own exclusive interests.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 05:49:00 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
Anybody who claims to be either intelligent and informed and still listens to Lady Gaga obviously does not really posses either quality.
How could you be informed regarding Gaga's music if you hadn't listened to it? And who but the unintelligent would form an opinion regarding music he hadn't heard?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:49:11 AM
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 05:41:35 AM
Yea because intelligence and being informed is merely & totally based on what music someone listens-to of course. You're a retard.

I don't agree. JdP has a point here. Intelligence and being informed gives ability to recognize artistic quality (or lack of it). Lady Gaga is an easy case since it is commercially calculated junk so shamelessly clearly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on November 12, 2011, 05:52:53 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
Anybody who claims to be either intelligent and informed and still listens to Lady Gaga obviously does not really posses either quality.

Lady Gaga is, in fact, a very clever woman whose best songs (which are still the early ones, esp. "Bad Romance") show an unbeatable understanding of how to hook an audience. They're catchy, tuneful, they avoid most of the drearily dull chord progressions of modern pop, and the lyrics are comprehensible. I still think Winehouse and Adele are more interesting as artists, but the fact remains that Gaga is not junk any more than, say, Johann Strauss was junk.

Which reminds me of another of my unpopular opinions:

Johann Strauss Jr. was a genius.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:55:00 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:44:53 AM
Its an illogical position. Those who listens to Haydn are the ones who do not listen to Lady Gaga, that is, the intelligent and knowledgeable ones. We would expect such individuals to be of a more discerning kind even within the confines of their own exclusive interests.

Those who listen to Lady Gaga are dumb and ignorant as you said.
Those who listen to Haydn are not dumb but maybe somewhat ignorant.
Those who listen to Haydn and Dittersdorf are neither dumb nor ignorant.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 12, 2011, 05:57:47 AM
There is a difference between 'hearing' and 'listening'. I am not convinced that some here have grasped that.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 05:58:48 AM
Why do you visit GMG?

Because it's one of the most consistently entertaining sites on the Web.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 05:59:59 AM
Quote from: knight66 on November 12, 2011, 05:57:47 AM
There is a difference between 'hearing' and 'listening'. I am not convinced that some here have grasped that.
Listening = hearing attentively?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zauberflöte on November 12, 2011, 06:02:03 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
Anybody who claims to be either intelligent and informed and still listens to Lady Gaga obviously does not really posses either quality.

I enjoy listening to Lady Gaga, also to Josquin des Prez, the real one, not the pretentious, condescending prig pretending to be him on these boards.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 12, 2011, 06:04:13 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 05:59:59 AM
Listening = hearing attentively?

Yes indeed.

BTW, though I really do not like Lady Gaga's music, she is certainly highly intelligent and creative.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 06:08:52 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 12, 2011, 05:52:53 AM
Lady Gaga is, in fact, a very clever woman

You mean her manager is very clever? They are all clever and rich. We haven't talked about Lady Gaga's ability to do business.

Quote from: Brian on November 12, 2011, 05:52:53 AMwhose best songs (which are still the early ones, esp. "Bad Romance") show an unbeatable understanding of how to hook an audience.

I think I have heard newer songs which are simply horrible. Britney Spears sounds very good in comparison.  ???

Quote from: Brian on November 12, 2011, 05:52:53 AMThey're catchy, tuneful, they avoid most of the drearily dull chord progressions of modern pop, and the lyrics are comprehensible. I still think Winehouse and Adele are more interesting as artists, but the fact remains that Gaga is not junk any more than, say, Johann Strauss was junk.

Adele is a decent artist. Not that interesting but an artist I can approve.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 12, 2011, 06:11:01 AM
If you hear and watch Gaga being interviewd by a hald decent interviewer, you will grasp she is highly intelligent. That is not the same thing as claiming she is a sharp business woman.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 12, 2011, 06:17:19 AM
Quote from: Szykneij on November 12, 2011, 05:14:39 AM
I own a Zamfir CD. I like it.

Is it romanian folklore Zamfir or golden hits Zamfir?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Szykneij on November 12, 2011, 06:27:37 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on November 12, 2011, 06:17:19 AM
Is it romanian folklore Zamphir or golden hits Zamphir?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51utjQUwmNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on November 12, 2011, 06:31:10 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 05:42:10 AM
Guess you've never heard Wagner's music, either.

The difference is that I happened to hear Wagner's music before I knew anything about his personality. At that point, there was no going back. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 06:34:23 AM
Quote from: Chaszz on November 12, 2011, 06:31:10 AM
The difference is that I happened to hear Wagner's music before I knew anything about his personality. At that point, there was no going back. 
Good thing you never read any of the Nick Adams stories!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on November 12, 2011, 06:35:28 AM
   Chamber music is NOT more interesting than orchestral music.  Both have so many interesting works. 
   With chamber music, you can't get the enormous coloristic variety of orchestral . 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on November 12, 2011, 06:37:56 AM
   Chopin's  works are music of  swooning salonish sentimentality,  perfumed  preciosity and  pallid prettiness . 
   Sorry about the alliteration, but I'm a  Wagnerian , and Wagnerians love alliteration .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 07:43:00 AM
Resisting the urge to point fingers, I'll just observe that I don't understand why some people choose to devote more of their limited time on earth to trashing they music they dislike, (as well as the  the people who may like such music), and not devote the bulk of their effort to treasuring the music they love, and hopefully using a forum like this to discover new music that they had not previously known.

Frankly, if there is no love or joy in it, the game's not worth a candle.

A few things- these are my own opinions, and I'm not going to be childish enough to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with them.  To me, that smacks of insecurity, and not knowing what one is looking for.   I'm also of the mind set that I'd probably be more upset if everyone agreed with them.



I don't really get Mozart- I LOVE Bach.

If you are listening to Bach for the Harmony and not the counterpoint, it's like going to see a Jackie Chan movie without any martial arts.

I have a fondness for the Eroica-  but on the whole, I don't get Beethoven.   I like the power of his symphonies, but something about his scoring turns me off.  I have mild synesthesia, and his music appears snot green to me. 

A lot of the serialist stuff is fun for a few minutes, but I tend to find it monotonous after a while.  For Schoenberg, I tend to prefer his atonal expressionist stuff to the formal serialist stuff later.

I'm not so strong on the classical or early romantic periods. There just isn't much attraction.

I tend towards solo keyboard works or orchestral.  I've only found a couple string quartets that call me back (Ravel and Moeran), and I still haven't found a composer whose chamber works consistently floor me. 


My preferences are always evolving as my needs change.   I used to really love avante-garde stuff, but now I don't seem to need it as much.  I guess I feel like Rochberg when he reembraced more use of tonality after he found the 12 tone approach limiting to express what he was feeling.  I used to think I only liked Stravinsky's first three Ballets- it took several more years to accept Les Noces, Symphony of Psalms, the 1945 Symphony, Agon, and the Ebony Concerto as the masterpieces I feel them to be.


Very little Brahms has made much of an impression on me.


Not too big on Operas outside of Mussorgsky.   One the whole Wagner wears out his welcome very quickly with me. 


I've enjoyed music much more every since I stopped worrying if it was "Serious" or  not, As a result, I'm enjoying the serious stuff more.


There is a lot of "Non-Serious" music I downright love, and is as important to my own musical hierarchy as classical.  I love jazz artists like like John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and blues artists like Otis Rush and Buddy guy every bit as much as I love Bach and Stravinsky, not because they have the same qualities, but because they don't.  They trigger another response in me, and open other musical vistas that I never would have encountered back when I was hung up on "Serious" music, and spending a lot of time looking down on others that weren't "serious" enough.

Not sure if I confessed it yet, but I'm a huge Allman Brothers fan- at least for their instrumentals and longer works.  However, I can live the rest of my life without every hearing Rambling Man again, and I think that Gregg Allman and Dickie Betts are sleazeballs, and a lot of the other "southern rock" bands were pretty worthless.   It was the song High Falls that first convinced me that there may be music of worth outside of the "serious stuff" I was listening to.  And that there are times where improvised music could deliver a purer message to me than something composed. 

Yes, I like some trash.  Everything now and thing I need garage rock, punk, etc.  I need something for different moods.  WHo would want to eat the same meal for the rest of their lives?  And music, IMO, needs to address the whole person, not just the intellect. 

Good music is not necessarily complicated.  It is not necessarily simple.   It accomplishes what it sets out to do without pretense or posing.  That's my definition.  Your mileage may vary.  As well it should.

A great way to waste time an energy is trying to get people to feel  the same about a work as you do.  Even iif a person shares your tastes in a lot of areas, there's no predicting.  It just leads to frustration, and name calling. 

I've also learned a lot of tricks in pursuing music from people whose tastes were radically different from mine. I didn't apply these tricks to the same artists, but the ones I've like.


I keep a list of artists that I'm supposed to like, but just haven't gotten into.  I go back from time to time.  Still haven't clicked with Mahler- fascinating guy, I love the scope of his works, but parts of him just strike me as cheesy.  But there may still be a point where the gates open, and I want to be ready when it does.


And I keep looking for a new sounds to explore.  Lately, it's been early instrumental rock (not really surf or rockabilly).   Some of that stuff manages to combine some surprising sophistication with some basic urggh.  Like many discoveries, it is scratching an itch I didn't know I had.  But I'm wading through a lot of crap to collect a good compilation. 

IN any genre, "classical" included, you are likely to find a few gems and a lot of trash.  (What defines the difference is subject to some interpretation.)  One advantage in classical is that a lot of the weaker artists have been weeded out over time.   I don't understand people devoting too much energy to bashing whole genres.  If you don't like it, don't listen.  But if you hear SOMETHING in a genre you've previously disliked that moves you, it may behoove you to dig deeper.   But I don't see the point in wasting energy in throwing yourself at something that doesn't move you.   Even in some of the more problematic artists I'
ve grown to love, even if you couldn't fully grasp what whey were doing on teh first try, there would be something that would pull you back. 


I don't think anybody would be on this forum if they didn't have a strong relationship with music.   I love to see people passionate about their music.  The worst thing is indifference- people that say they like all kinds of music but you get the feeling it is all background to them.  As I've gotten older, I've learned to appreciate the excitement people bring to music that I can't stand.  Music is a personal quest for all of us, and we need to make our own path.

Also, to get back to some of the name calling, the idea of this thread was for people to vent their opinions.  An opinion, by definition, cannot be right or wrong.   I can say the only thing on this forum that has bothered me has not been someone who doesn't like one of my sacred cows, but rather  intolerance for other peoples opinions.   I honestly believe the name calling comes from insecurity.  If you really are comfortable in your own skin, there is not need to take any disagreements in tastes personnally.

And, personally, although I don't seeing the name calling aimed at others, feel free to toss any in my direction- it won't offend me, but may cause me to giggle a lot.   This is just a web forum- and in terms of stress, is nothing like the real world horrors of old age, illness, and death. 


Okay, the caffeine is wearing off.   Just one more point about the love and joy.  Music is, for me, the most endlessly fascinating art form.  I honestly believe it has powers over the mind, and opens up an incredible range of experiences.  Music is playing somewhere in my mind all the time, whether I am listening to it or not.  I believe it as important to my life as air, food, and water.   I really don't care if there rest of you share my likes and dislikes, or interpretation of what a given work "means", but I do hope  despite some of the negative threads and name calling, that each of you can find the joy in what you like, and not let  the name calling distract you from what brought you to music in the first place.





Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: BobsterLobster on November 12, 2011, 08:00:03 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 12, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
Maybe, or maybe not (though studies on the subject imply precisely that. Musical taste is a reflection of ones own intelligence and knowledge. There's even been a study made upon classical music fans who became victims of dementia and other brain degenerative illnesses, who turned to popular music!). One thing is however certain: anybody who listens to Lady Gaga specifically is indeed totally dump and ignorant. On that, there is no ambiguity.

Can you cite your reference? Sounds very interesting!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 09:58:58 AM
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 09:41:55 AM
Word of advice .. try without the caffeine next time.

*giggles*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 12, 2011, 11:08:51 AM
Quote from: toucan on November 12, 2011, 06:23:14 AM
Amy Winehouse was ... imitative
That's what I thought.  Lots of folks I know thought she was great, but I just saw another drug addict with typically self-absorbed affectations imitating real singers who had done the same sort of thing before and much better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 12, 2011, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 07:43:00 AM
Resisting the urge to point fingers, I'll just observe that I don't understand why some people choose to devote more of their limited time on earth to trashing they music they dislike, (as well as the  the people who may like such music), and not devote the bulk of their effort to treasuring the music they love, and hopefully using a forum like this to discover new music that they had not previously known.

Frankly, if there is no love or joy in it, the game's not worth a candle.

Yes a good thing to do is to concentrate on what you like and enjoy it to the full.  I  hate feeling there are gaps in my understanding on things though so I always try to fill in those to an extent, even if my main preferences are ultimately more limited (like just about everyone). 

I don't think I tend to just question music I don't like for the sake of it, normally it is in response to someone saying it is really important in some way and that can lead me to give my opinion on it.  There can be constructive polite criticism, though some on internet forums can certainly try to make things personal.  And I agree with you that it is completely unneccesary to do that about people on forums you don't really even know.  People should just keep it to the music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Szykneij on November 12, 2011, 11:35:12 AM
Quote from: starrynight on November 12, 2011, 11:29:22 AM
And I agree with you that it is completely unneccesary to do that about people on forums you don't really even know.  People should just keep it to the music.

I also agree, especially in a thread with an opening post that says

Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
This thread is a haven where you can go against the grain without fear of persecution.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
Giggling is something little girls do. Just letting you know.

*giggles even harder*

(http://www.comics101.com/comics101//news/Comics%20101/313/frank-gorshin-riddler.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/v/ogadm5IzJfU



One of my favorite little girls  above.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on November 12, 2011, 12:49:42 PM
You are purely unable to rise above the level of personal insult, aren't you?

Anyway, here's an unpopular opinion: Berlioz was the most important composer of the 19th century and Cage was the most important of the 20th.

Wait. Is that two opinions?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 12:53:16 PM
Quote from: some guy on November 12, 2011, 12:49:42 PM
You are purely unable to rise above the level of personal insult, aren't you?

Please, don't discourage him.  I'm looking for more material.  And he rarely disappoints.  That's what I love about him so much, in my gender confused way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 01:05:55 PM
Quote from: Szykneij on November 12, 2011, 05:14:39 AM
I own a Zamfir CD. I like it.

You're a man's man, Tony!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 01:07:01 PM
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 01:04:30 PM
You are a humorless twit who could use a page out of the insult comic's handbook. And Cage is mindless crap that any unmusical shithead could pull off. Now if you excuse me, I'm off to the washroom to perform to my latest opus in his honour.

You GO girl!

(http://www.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/oprah.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 01:07:28 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 05:39:58 AM
How about considering the possibility that Vanhal, Dittersdorf and Hofmann are almost as good as Haydn

I considered the possibilty, but upon listening to the music, such a thesis did not hold up.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 01:09:31 PM
Quote from: knight66 on November 12, 2011, 06:11:01 AM
If you hear and watch Gaga being interviewd by a hald decent interviewer, you will grasp she is highly intelligent.

I consider the possibility that GaGa is more intelligent than some who post here.  And is possessed of more humor than some.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 01:11:01 PM
Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 07:43:00 AM
Resisting the urge to point fingers, I'll just observe that I don't understand why some people choose to devote more of their limited time on earth to trashing they music they dislike, (as well as the  the people who may like such music), and not devote the bulk of their effort to treasuring the music they love, and hopefully using a forum like this to discover new music that they had not previously known.

Frankly, if there is no love or joy in it, the game's not worth a candle.

A few things- these are my own opinions, and I'm not going to be childish enough to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with them.  To me, that smacks of insecurity, and not knowing what one is looking for.   I'm also of the mind set that I'd probably be more upset if everyone agreed with them.



I don't really get Mozart- I LOVE Bach.

If you are listening to Bach for the Harmony and not the counterpoint, it's like going to see a Jackie Chan movie without any martial arts.

I have a fondness for the Eroica-  but on the whole, I don't get Beethoven.   I like the power of his symphonies, but something about his scoring turns me off.  I have mild synesthesia, and his music appears snot green to me. 

A lot of the serialist stuff is fun for a few minutes, but I tend to find it monotonous after a while.  For Schoenberg, I tend to prefer his atonal expressionist stuff to the formal serialist stuff later.

I'm not so strong on the classical or early romantic periods. There just isn't much attraction.

I tend towards solo keyboard works or orchestral.  I've only found a couple string quartets that call me back (Ravel and Moeran), and I still haven't found a composer whose chamber works consistently floor me. 


My preferences are always evolving as my needs change.   I used to really love avante-garde stuff, but now I don't seem to need it as much.  I guess I feel like Rochberg when he reembraced more use of tonality after he found the 12 tone approach limiting to express what he was feeling.  I used to think I only liked Stravinsky's first three Ballets- it took several more years to accept Les Noces, Symphony of Psalms, the 1945 Symphony, Agon, and the Ebony Concerto as the masterpieces I feel them to be.


Very little Brahms has made much of an impression on me.


Not too big on Operas outside of Mussorgsky.   One the whole Wagner wears out his welcome very quickly with me. 


I've enjoyed music much more every since I stopped worrying if it was "Serious" or  not, As a result, I'm enjoying the serious stuff more.


There is a lot of "Non-Serious" music I downright love, and is as important to my own musical hierarchy as classical.  I love jazz artists like like John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and blues artists like Otis Rush and Buddy guy every bit as much as I love Bach and Stravinsky, not because they have the same qualities, but because they don't.  They trigger another response in me, and open other musical vistas that I never would have encountered back when I was hung up on "Serious" music, and spending a lot of time looking down on others that weren't "serious" enough.

Not sure if I confessed it yet, but I'm a huge Allman Brothers fan- at least for their instrumentals and longer works.  However, I can live the rest of my life without every hearing Rambling Man again, and I think that Gregg Allman and Dickie Betts are sleazeballs, and a lot of the other "southern rock" bands were pretty worthless.   It was the song High Falls that first convinced me that there may be music of worth outside of the "serious stuff" I was listening to.  And that there are times where improvised music could deliver a purer message to me than something composed. 

Yes, I like some trash.  Everything now and thing I need garage rock, punk, etc.  I need something for different moods.  WHo would want to eat the same meal for the rest of their lives?  And music, IMO, needs to address the whole person, not just the intellect. 

Good music is not necessarily complicated.  It is not necessarily simple.   It accomplishes what it sets out to do without pretense or posing.  That's my definition.  Your mileage may vary.  As well it should.

A great way to waste time an energy is trying to get people to feel  the same about a work as you do.  Even iif a person shares your tastes in a lot of areas, there's no predicting.  It just leads to frustration, and name calling. 

I've also learned a lot of tricks in pursuing music from people whose tastes were radically different from mine. I didn't apply these tricks to the same artists, but the ones I've like.


I keep a list of artists that I'm supposed to like, but just haven't gotten into.  I go back from time to time.  Still haven't clicked with Mahler- fascinating guy, I love the scope of his works, but parts of him just strike me as cheesy.  But there may still be a point where the gates open, and I want to be ready when it does.


And I keep looking for a new sounds to explore.  Lately, it's been early instrumental rock (not really surf or rockabilly).   Some of that stuff manages to combine some surprising sophistication with some basic urggh.  Like many discoveries, it is scratching an itch I didn't know I had.  But I'm wading through a lot of crap to collect a good compilation. 

IN any genre, "classical" included, you are likely to find a few gems and a lot of trash.  (What defines the difference is subject to some interpretation.)  One advantage in classical is that a lot of the weaker artists have been weeded out over time.   I don't understand people devoting too much energy to bashing whole genres.  If you don't like it, don't listen.  But if you hear SOMETHING in a genre you've previously disliked that moves you, it may behoove you to dig deeper.   But I don't see the point in wasting energy in throwing yourself at something that doesn't move you.   Even in some of the more problematic artists I'
ve grown to love, even if you couldn't fully grasp what whey were doing on teh first try, there would be something that would pull you back. 


I don't think anybody would be on this forum if they didn't have a strong relationship with music.   I love to see people passionate about their music.  The worst thing is indifference- people that say they like all kinds of music but you get the feeling it is all background to them.  As I've gotten older, I've learned to appreciate the excitement people bring to music that I can't stand.  Music is a personal quest for all of us, and we need to make our own path.

Also, to get back to some of the name calling, the idea of this thread was for people to vent their opinions.  An opinion, by definition, cannot be right or wrong.   I can say the only thing on this forum that has bothered me has not been someone who doesn't like one of my sacred cows, but rather  intolerance for other peoples opinions.   I honestly believe the name calling comes from insecurity.  If you really are comfortable in your own skin, there is not need to take any disagreements in tastes personnally.

And, personally, although I don't seeing the name calling aimed at others, feel free to toss any in my direction- it won't offend me, but may cause me to giggle a lot.   This is just a web forum- and in terms of stress, is nothing like the real world horrors of old age, illness, and death. 


Okay, the caffeine is wearing off.   Just one more point about the love and joy.  Music is, for me, the most endlessly fascinating art form.  I honestly believe it has powers over the mind, and opens up an incredible range of experiences.  Music is playing somewhere in my mind all the time, whether I am listening to it or not.  I believe it as important to my life as air, food, and water.   I really don't care if there rest of you share my likes and dislikes, or interpretation of what a given work "means", but I do hope  despite some of the negative threads and name calling, that each of you can find the joy in what you like, and not let  the name calling distract you from what brought you to music in the first place.







I may not agree with everything you say, but I dig the tone of your saying it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 12:53:16 PM
Please, don't discourage him.  I'm looking for more material.  And he rarely disappoints.  That's what I love about him so much, in my gender confused way.

Can always do with more bingo cards
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on November 12, 2011, 01:14:07 PM
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2011, 01:16:59 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2011, 01:12:17 PM
Can always do with more bingo cards

The next project will be a bit more interactive.  Oops!  I've said too much.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on November 12, 2011, 02:09:23 PM
jowcol, you know perfectly well that James cannot be discouraged!

He's invincible!!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: snyprrr on November 12, 2011, 02:27:51 PM
I have found the one topic of discussion that is absolutely forbidden in The West.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 03:16:17 PM
Quote from: paulrbass on November 12, 2011, 01:14:07 PM

       
  • I don't think of rankings of composers is a good idea, I like what I like.  Vanhal might not be on the level of Haydn or Mozart, but I enjoy his music all the same.


Excellent. You anticipated a follow-up post I was considering to the effect that enjoying Vanhal's music is one thing, asserting that it's as good as Haydn's, quite another.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2011, 03:28:24 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 12, 2011, 02:27:51 PM
I have found the one topic of discussion that is absolutely forbidden in The West.

     I was there in September and everyone talked normally, just like here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/huh.gif) So I'm a little curious but......if it's forbidden I won't ask you to tell.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2011, 03:16:17 PM
Excellent. You anticipated a follow-up post I was considering to the effect that enjoying Vanhal's music is one thing, asserting that it's as good as Haydn's, quite another.

     Chocolate ice cream is in some respects better than Haydn, though even if it wasn't I'd still like it. But I'm told asserting that it's better is a flogging offense. (//)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 12, 2011, 03:33:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2011, 07:03:54 PM
:P I saw this post and I nearly busted out laughing, Daniel. Very, very funny...

Anyway, no I will not say anything too bad about Mahler ;), but what I will say is that his music grates on my nerves. It's so all over the place emotionally. Up and down, up and down, up and down....

It drives me crazy.

:P

I would have hammer you John, but then I saw this...

Quote from: BobsterLobster on November 11, 2011, 06:24:16 PM
Mahler bores me stupid, I'm not particularly keen on most Mozart, and I don't really like Classical symphonic music all that much.  :P

The two last statements I kind of agree with... but the first one... I shall now send a massive Mahlerian hammering your way....

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2011, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2011, 07:03:54 PM

Anyway, no I will not say anything too bad about Mahler ;), but what I will say is that his music grates on my nerves. It's so all over the place emotionally. Up and down, up and down, up and down....

It drives me crazy.


     I hear you, but that quality that grates on you grates on me, too. That's the quality that I came to like, though I admit that Mahler is not an all occasions composer. Come to think of it, would it matter if there were no all occasions composers? Are there any?

     I do think Mahler is hard to take in a particular way. Part of it is the sheer mockery of a musical tradition that he also displayed uncommon mastery of. Among the radicals of the late 19th century he was the one who stood up to Beethoven. He did not avoid the issue by rejecting symphonic form, he remade it in his own way and changed it profoundly. Still, based on sound his music often sucks. I mean, the composer is trying to piss you off, right? So, sometimes I don't want to hear that, just like I don't always want to see a Cronenberg film. Well, not just like, but maybe a little like that. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/sad.gif)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 13, 2011, 02:21:08 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 11, 2011, 01:49:51 PM
Wagner is pompous and boring.

Ah, I can't definitely agree with this :( For me instead, it's the best music ever composed, so beautiful, powerful and passionate!

I'm sorry I'm quite sensitive when Wagner's music is talked about in a negative way.......
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 13, 2011, 11:16:28 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 13, 2011, 02:21:08 AM
Ah, I can't definitely agree with this :( For me instead, it's the best music ever composed, apart from that of Mahlerso beautiful, powerful and passionate!

I'm sorry I'm quite sensitive when Wagner's music is talked about in a negative way.......

:)

However much I love Wagner, I can see why some people would think this. Extremely long pieces, full of such extreme emotions.
In this way, rather similar to Mahler. Great post from drogulus by the way! I can agree, the extreme and variable emotions in Mahler are an example of why I love his music so so so very much!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 13, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 13, 2011, 02:21:08 AM
apart from that of Mahler

:D

I don't remember to have said something similar.....

QuoteHowever much I love Wagner, I can see why some people would think this. Extremely long pieces, full of such extreme emotions.
In this way, rather similar to Mahler. Great post from drogulus by the way! I can agree, the extreme and variable emotions in Mahler are an example of why I love his music so so so very much!

I perfectly know some people could think this, unluckily it's a rather widespread judgement about Wagner's music: complex, boring, indecipherable....but absolute nonsense in my opinion.
I certainly agree with what you said in the second part of the massage, that's why I love Mahler so much too :)



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 13, 2011, 11:44:39 AM
Ab
Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2011, 01:09:31 PM
I consider the possibility that GaGa is more intelligent than some who post here.  And is possessed of more humor than some.
Absolutely.  Once you recognize that she's a performance artist and step away from the preposterous commercial success of the character she created, you have to admire both her brilliant assimilation of so many strands of pop culture and her sheer chutzpah.  She makes Katy Perry look like an amateur (in the unflattering sense of the phrase).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on November 13, 2011, 11:57:04 AM
Hmmm. It appears from the last few responses that I may have yet another unpopular opinion, and that is that music is about sounds. Sounds and combinations of sounds and manipulations and transformations of sounds.

Not about emotions.

Sure, we can respond to music emotionally. We can respond to food emotionally, too. (Though I don't ever hear anyone claiming that this or that meal is "too up and down emotionally.") We are humans. We are emotional.

But music isn't about our emotions. It isn't about the emotions of the composers. It doesn't convey emotion. It doesn't have emotional content. It's sounds. If we make emotional responses, OK. If we derive emotional information from the sounds, that's all us.

I never think of Mahler's emotions or his life or any of that when I'm listening to his music. I think only of the music. Those sounds, those patterns, those structures. Do I respond emotionally? Of course. Do I think Mahler thought he was pouring his emotions into those sounds? Sure.

But the sounds are all that's important now. Mahler's dead. His music is alive. It is alive whether you know anything about Mahler's life or torments or struggles or joys or anything else. I knew exactly nothing about Mahler's life or the putative emotional content of his music when I first heard the symphony no. 5 and fell in love with it. In fact, it was several decades later that I first came across the information that the opening is supposed to be a funeral march. Really? I was incredulous.

I'd been enjoying it all those years without realizing that it was marked "Trauermarsch." And after I knew that? Well, I can still enjoy Mahler's fifth, though I do have to work a bit to forget "Trauermarsch" now so that I can enjoy the sounds! Not a big deal, but there you are.

[I just found a thesis online that contains this remark: "The opening funeral march is quite obviously concerned with the subject of death, and the extra-musical implication seems to be that an ultimate victory in life is achieved only by descending into the grave. The philosophical statement of the symphony is not simply that tragedy will eventually yield to victory, but rather that tragedy must occur and must be accepted before any true victory is possible." Wow. I couldn't disagree more. If symphonies were philosophical statements, they would be written in words not tones. I'm some guy, and I endorse this unpopular opinion.]
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: drogulus on November 13, 2011, 12:10:20 PM


     I love Mahler and Strauss, so why don't I care for Wagner that much? I'm probably in the minority about that. I'm also in the minority in not hating while not liking Wagner. It seems I haven't found the key.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 13, 2011, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 12, 2011, 03:54:25 PM
(re. Mahler) ... based on sound his music often sucks.

:o

Of the many criticisms Mahler's music may be subject to, some deserved, some not, I can't recall ever having heard anyone damn the sound of his music. This may take the prize for the most (musically related) unpopular opinion aired thus far.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 12:24:00 PM
I don't agree with what Some Guy suggests either. If music is not about emotion, then food is only about sustenance and painting is all about paint.

We do often second guess what composers wanted; but there is plenty of evidence that they were pouring themselves into their music and much music has been given a programmatic narrative. I don't buy into the idea of it being entirely abstract. Different sounds evoke specific reactions in a commonality of people. This may well be through societal conditioning, but is not less valid for that.

Mike

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on November 13, 2011, 12:40:29 PM
Mike,

I don't doubt that we disagree, but I would like to clarify one thing, "entirely abstract" are your words, not mine. I would never say that music is entirely abstract. It seems pretty damn concrete to me, actually. But it's musical concreteness and not some other kind. ("Emotion" is an abstract word, just by the way.)

Oh, wait. I want to clarify another thing, too. Food is about more than just sustenance, true. It's about enjoyment. But we enjoy different foods, all of us, don't we? Although the same foods, with specific allergic exceptions, will sustain all of us, regardless of taste. The same is not true for the arts. Painting is all about paint, but good God, what a magical thing paint is, don't you think? And what magical things sounds are. Sounds and pigments genuinely work upon us at a very deep level, I think. Otherwise, there could hardly be these passionate arguments, could there?

So when I say "music is about sounds" I'm already saying a lot more than I would be saying if I said "food is about sustenance." Sorry if that didn't come across. (I did say that I fell in love with Mahler's fifth, didn't I? And have loved it for several decades.)

But I AM still saying that I don't think music is ABOUT emotions. It certainly elicits them. But then so do lots of other things, including food. I think sounds and pigments are important because they can transcend emotions, not because they can elicit them. And, as with food, the same music can elicit different emotions from different people. Sure, people with similar backgrounds and similar experience will be able to respond to the same piece similarly. No surprise there. But, as you can see just by looking at a handful of posts in any thread, even people with similar backgrounds and similar experience can disagree violently about any given piece of music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 13, 2011, 12:53:17 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 13, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
:D

I don't remember to have said something similar.....
:D


Quote from: some guy on November 13, 2011, 11:57:04 AM
[I just found a thesis online that contains this remark: "The opening funeral march is quite obviously concerned with the subject of death, and the extra-musical implication seems to be that an ultimate victory in life is achieved only by descending into the grave. The philosophical statement of the symphony is not simply that tragedy will eventually yield to victory, but rather that tragedy must occur and must be accepted before any true victory is possible." Wow. I couldn't disagree more. If symphonies were philosophical statements, they would be written in words not tones. I'm some guy, and I endorse this unpopular opinion.]
I totally agree. Some writers just want to be fancy so they can seem like good writers with something to write about, when in fact, who ever actually has all of that in mind when composing? I doubt any good composer, ever, would think that precisely when deciding which note to write next. Composing is more of an intuitive process, and after something is written, then you can make up whatever extra-musical story it supposedly expresses, which never really existed in the first place.


As for the Lady Gaga discussion: genres have audiences, the size depending on the genre. It would be more helpful to look at it like that. Pop naturally has the biggest audience, so the most well-liked pop artist is going to be the music who, at the time, has the biggest following. It's not like Lady Gaga is a one-man force going against Beethoven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:03:04 PM
I come at this; partly from reading about the origins of music.....heartbeat and rain on leaves for example giving rise to a concept of rhythm. But I still don't grasp this the way you do. I also come at it through vocal music. It is clear that in opera emotions are being evoked within the artform, not simply by it. I don't subscribe to the idea that if you take the words out; then what is left has no inherent emotion or meaning within it. For sure the truncated material would be a lot less focused, but because we could not exactly nail it, does not mean it has reverted to detached sound.

Nor am I clear what you mean by emotions being abstract. I am aware there are different theories on emotions, but not aware that either of the main ones attach the word 'abstract' to describe them.

Mike

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: Greg on November 13, 2011, 12:53:17 PM
:D

I totally agree. Some writers just want to be fancy so they can seem like good writers with something to write about, when in fact, who ever actually has all of that in mind when composing? I doubt any good composer, ever, would think that precisely when deciding which note to write next. Composing is more of an intuitive process, and after something is written, then you can make up whatever extra-musical story it supposedly expresses, which never really existed in the first place.



I think that is an interesting point Greg, but I don't think it is a rule. Nor do I think all composers would agree that composing is principally intuitive. That implies a stream of consciousness approach which I suggest would probably be quite rare. It is often careful craft as much as it is inspiration. Composers may not be able to express the process and outcomes in words; after all, if they could do that, why compose.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 13, 2011, 01:28:03 PM
Quote from: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:07:56 PM
I think that is an interesting point Greg, but I don't think it is a rule. Nor do I think all composers would agree that composing is principally intuitive. That implies a stream of consciousness approach which I suggest would probably be quite rare. It is often careful craft as much as it is inspiration. Composers may not be able to express the process and outcomes in words; after all, if they could do that, why compose.

Mike
Well, it's kind of the middle, usually. Composers might want to express certain things, generally, but you can only get so far, since music is only sound. I think the line of thought that some writings seem to express (that it's normal for composers write to solve philosophical problem note for note) is highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:40:09 PM
I can't think that any composer has solved any phylosophical problems with a symphony. Nor is a solution to one the application of the emotions.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 13, 2011, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 13, 2011, 12:10:55 PM
:o

Of the many criticisms Mahler's music may be subject to, some deserved, some not, I can't recall ever having heard anyone damn the sound of his music. This may take the prize for the most (musically related) unpopular opinion aired thus far.

Just re-read drogulus' post, and am shocked!!!!!!!!  >:(

Quote from: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:40:09 PM
I can't think that any composer has solved any phylosophical problems with a symphony. Nor is a solution to one the application of the emotions.

Mike

Mahler.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on November 13, 2011, 02:16:55 PM
Quote from: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:03:04 PMIt is clear that in opera emotions are being evoked within the artform, not simply by it. I don't subscribe to the idea that if you take the words out; then what is left has no inherent emotion or meaning within it. For sure the truncated material would be a lot less focused, but because we could not exactly nail it, does not mean it has reverted to detached sound.
And I, for my part, am not sure what you mean by "detached sound," though I must say, it does sound intriguing. Anyway, opera is a special beast. It can convey emotions directly, through words and through actions. A theatrical production without music can convey emotions through words and through actions. So what does music contribute to a theatrical situation that is already conveying emotions through the words and the actions? There's a fine question to chew on, methinks.

I wouldn't express the wordless situation as "what is left has no inherent emotion or meaning." I think that music is full of content, but it's musical content, not any other kind. It's musical meaning. As soon as we start to talk about it, we falsify that reality. Can't be helped, really. But we should be aware that it's happening, I think.

Quote from: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:03:04 PMNor am I clear what you mean by emotions being abstract. I am aware there are different theories on emotions, but not aware that either of the main ones attach the word 'abstract' to describe them.
The word, I said. The word "emotion" is an abstraction. Fear, love, anger, desire, joy, hatred--those are none of them things you can pick up and carry around with you. Scissors, books, handkerchiefs, cameras, those are concrete. (So much so, that our mothers warned us never to run with scissors in our hands!)

Note that calling emotions "abstract" is not to call them "unreal" or "unimportant" or anything like that. That would just be silly. Only our tendency to think of concrete as more real would lead us into that particular silliness. In many ways, in most ways, scissors are much less real than emotions.

Mike
[/quote]
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 13, 2011, 02:17:16 PM
I don't think these are philosophical problems- more like displaying his own philosophy in music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 02:45:27 PM
SG, We are not going to see eye to eye. Libraries have been written trying merely to define the words being tossed about here. I think the opera argument is a canard, as though adding voices somehow turns the music into something else. Just another kind of sound after all. If the words are in a foreign language to that the hearer understands, that listener can often define roughly what is being conveyed. Words are themselves abstract until imbued with an agreed meaning. Music likewise is sound unless imbued with meaning. In the latter it is the interaction of the composer, the musician and the listener, but to an extent by conditioning and tacit agreement in the West emotions have been attached to specific sounds. Partly subjective I am sure. But equally, much meaning is ascribed in subtext to Shakespear's lines and I am sure he never intended half of what is dug out of them. Going back to music, I don't claim the emotions are universal. We have constructed an approximate lexicon of sound meanings that would not translate say in traditional Indonesia.

I do believe music is a constructed language of a kind and can therefore contain and express more than sound.

In one school on this, emotion literally has physical manifestations, not side effects, but part and parcel of the emotion sits in chemistry and biology and is physiological. So, not perhaps an abstraction.

And, sorry, Mahler did much, but his music solved no philosophical conundrums.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 02:46:31 PM
Quote from: Greg on November 13, 2011, 02:17:16 PM
I don't think these are philosophical problems- more like displaying his own philosophy in music.

Yes, I pretty much buy that, though I think it was possibly more difuse than that for him.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 02:51:07 PM
Quote from: some guy on November 13, 2011, 02:16:55 PM
In many ways, in most ways, scissors are much less real than emotions.

Mike

Rereading.......that's a nice thought. Somewhat like the pen, (word), being mightier than the sword.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on November 13, 2011, 03:07:04 PM
Quote from: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 02:51:07 PM
Somewhat like the pen, (word), being mightier than the sword.

You know, sword is absolutely useless without emotion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 12, 2011, 03:33:33 PM
:P

I would have hammer you John, but then I saw this...

The two last statements I kind of agree with... but the first one... I shall now send a massive Mahlerian hammering your way....

Well Mahler's music doesn't bore me. It's exciting stuff to be sure. I'm just going to have to give him more time. I do remember being enthralled with Symphony No. 2 when I first heard it with Leonard Bernstein conducting the NY Philharmonic on Sony. Man, this is such an amazing performance all-around. I think I'm going to have a Mahler marathon either tomorrow or Tuesday. I just need to give ol' Mahler another chance. My Dad, you, Ilaria, many others on this forum love his music so it must mean something! 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 06:24:54 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 12, 2011, 03:54:25 PM
     I hear you, but that quality that grates on you grates on me, too. That's the quality that I came to like, though I admit that Mahler is not an all occasions composer. Come to think of it, would it matter if there were no all occasions composers? Are there any?

     I do think Mahler is hard to take in a particular way. Part of it is the sheer mockery of a musical tradition that he also displayed uncommon mastery of. Among the radicals of the late 19th century he was the one who stood up to Beethoven. He did not avoid the issue by rejecting symphonic form, he remade it in his own way and changed it profoundly. Still, based on sound his music often sucks. I mean, the composer is trying to piss you off, right? So, sometimes I don't want to hear that, just like I don't always want to see a Cronenberg film. Well, not just like, but maybe a little like that. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/sad.gif)

Some good points. As I was telling MadAboutMahler (Daniel), I just need to give Mahler more time. I went through a small Mahler phase when first got into classical music but that was soon subsided when Bruckner's music clicked for me. 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 13, 2011, 06:27:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 06:21:48 PM
I'm just going to have to give him more time.
That's definitely the key to him- it takes a while. Of course, it could just end up that his flavor of music just isn't suited to your taste buds. We're not obligated to enjoy every great composer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 06:35:36 PM
Quote from: Greg on November 13, 2011, 06:27:01 PM
That's definitely the key to him- it takes a while. Of course, it could just end up that his flavor of music just isn't suited to your taste buds. We're not obligated to enjoy every great composer.

Well we're all wired differently that's sure, but I have been moved by Mahler's music. In fact, when I first heard the Adagietto from the 5th symphony, I busted out in tears. It was one of the most revealing moments in classical music I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 13, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 06:35:36 PM
Well we're all wired differently that's sure, but I have been moved by Mahler's music. In fact, when I first heard the Adagietto from the 5th symphony, I busted out in tears. It was one of the most revealing moments in classical music I've ever heard.
Hmm... then what's the problem? Is it that you can't listen to a whole symphony of his straight through? Honestly, I can't even do that any more. I just listen to one movement at a time, or skim through. Maybe you should try doing something else while listening.
Or is it just that you have to be in the right mood to listen to it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 07:07:50 PM
Quote from: Greg on November 13, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
Hmm... then what's the problem? Is it that you can't listen to a whole symphony of his straight through? Honestly, I can't even do that any more. I just listen to one movement at a time, or skim through. Maybe you should try doing something else while listening.
Or is it just that you have to be in the right mood to listen to it?

I usually try and listen to the whole symphony, which I guess could be apart of the problem. I'll try the one movement at a time strategy. It seems like I've done this before and I recall it being much more successful. I remember just listening to the first movement of the 3rd and it's a symphony within itself lasting over 30 minutes. 8)

I hardly ever listen to music based on my mood. I listen, as I'm sure everyone does, for enjoyment and to find something within the music. There are different ways people can listen to music, I tend to listen to music in phases. One week it might be Bartok, the next week it might be Thelonious Monk, etc...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 13, 2011, 07:12:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 07:07:50 PM
I usually try and listen to the whole symphony, which I guess could be apart of the problem. I'll try the one movement at a time strategy. It seems like I've done this before and I recall it being much more successful. I remember just listening to the first movement of the 3rd and it's a symphony within itself lasting over 30 minutes. 8)

I hardly ever listen to music based on my mood. I listen, as I'm sure everyone does, for enjoyment and to find something within the music. There are different ways people can listen to music, I tend to listen to music in phases. One week it might be Bartok, the next week it might be Thelonious Monk, etc...
Seems like you just need a Mahler week.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: Greg on November 13, 2011, 07:12:03 PM
Seems like you just need a Mahler week.  ;)

:P

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on November 13, 2011, 07:36:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 07:07:50 PM
I usually try and listen to the whole symphony, which I guess could be apart of the problem. I'll try the one movement at a time strategy. It seems like I've done this before and I recall it being much more successful. I remember just listening to the first movement of the 3rd and it's a symphony within itself lasting over 30 minutes. 8)

This one movement at a time approach did wonders for me with Bruckner. Still is, in fact, as I'm conquering some of his more titanic symphonies one movement at a time even now. Love your example of the 3rd - one of just two Mahler symphonies I really love - and that first movement really is a complete symphony in its own right, though the first time I heard the piece was live (Warsaw/Wit) and when the final movement came along... it was like he'd been holding back from saying what he really meant to say all along. A couple of the inner movements make me wonder why they're there and then at the end all is explained.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 07:40:47 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2011, 07:36:43 PM
This one movement at a time approach did wonders for me with Bruckner. Still is, in fact, as I'm conquering some of his more titanic symphonies one movement at a time even now. Love your example of the 3rd - one of just two Mahler symphonies I really love - and that first movement really is a complete symphony in its own right, though the first time I heard the piece was live (Warsaw/Wit) and when the final movement came along... it was like he'd been holding back from saying what he really meant to say all along. A couple of the inner movements make me wonder why they're there and then at the end all is explained.

The 3rd is a beautiful work, Brian. Is this one of the more underrated symphonies of his cycle? I seem to recall many Mahlerians debating what their favorite symphony was and the 3rd seemed to be the least liked. I'm not sure why.

Bruckner was a beast I tackled head-on, lost the first round, but came back for a second round and won. 8) His Symphonies Nos. 4-9 are not of this world.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on November 13, 2011, 07:42:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 07:40:47 PM
The 3rd is a beautiful work, Brian. Is this one of the more underrated symphonies of his cycle? I seem to recall many Mahlerians debating what their favorite symphony was and the 3rd seemed to be the least liked. I'm not sure why.

I got the same sense and I shared your confusion. I think possibly because it's less angsty and more nature-filled, more optimistic; its closest cousin might therefore be No 1. Whereas most people who really love Mahler seem to love most the Mahler they hear in Nos 2, 6, and 9.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2011, 07:42:31 PM
I got the same sense and I shared your confusion. I think possibly because it's less angsty and more nature-filled, more optimistic; its closest cousin might therefore be No 1. Whereas most people who really love Mahler seem to love most the Mahler they hear in Nos 2, 6, and 9.

The 7th also seems to not get that much attention. I think it's a fine work. Perhaps a little on the odd side? Maybe, but that finale is something else!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 13, 2011, 08:40:12 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2011, 07:42:31 PM
I got the same sense and I shared your confusion. I think possibly because it's less angsty and more nature-filled, more optimistic; its closest cousin might therefore be No 1. Whereas most people who really love Mahler seem to love most the Mahler they hear in Nos 2, 6, and 9.
I had a hard time with the 3rd for a long time.  Now it might be my favorite and I love it so much that I can't imagine why it took me so long to appreciate it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ten thumbs on November 14, 2011, 01:18:36 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 11, 2011, 01:53:09 PM
Almost, but not quite. Scarlatti's genius rested in his infinite wealth of invention in regards to harmony and modulation. This at times pushed his sonatas towards unorthodox directions. His late sonatas are proof that you can write harmonically daring compositions without relying on chromaticism. Sometimes context alone can suffice.

BTW, Scarlatti's father is way, way below his son in terms of genius. Just wanted to say that.
The Six did say that he liked chromaticism. Anyway, the point I was making is that in Scarlatti we find reduction to one key to a bar and phrase repetition, two of the hallmarks of Classicism. I wonder whether or not he also dislikes the Classical architectural style of Palladio.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 14, 2011, 07:23:18 AM
I think there is some universality to music and the relation of emotions to music or sounds.   And of course as time has gone on with the increasing globalisation this universality has been more and more evident.  Also I don't think emotion is an abstraction, it's a very real thing with which we react to something.  Emotions can combine our senses with an intellectual response to something.   If we are talking about very precise meanings then obviously that may not specifically apply to a particular listener, but a general feeling can still apply and link composer, performer and listener.  That's why you don't necessarily have to read music critics and understand all about a composer's life to enjoy music.  I still think the best way is to just listen to more of a composer's or a particular period's music to get more inside it and past its surface sound to its intent.

Really I think music touches on emotions and the intellect, both are combined.  It may well be the same with other arts too, though the intellectual side is more to the surface perhaps in most other cases.  With music, initially at least,  we take it more directly as its pure state (sound) rather than as just an artwork.  And music is enjoyed by most people, it is easy to take in somehow compared to other arts, maybe because it is so uniquitous now and we are so used to hearing it all the time thanks to recording and transmitting technology.  This is a positive in that people can be more open to music, but might be a negative as people take it for granted without thinking about it more.  Food I think is different, to most people it is largely sustenance (and purely sensory and not intellectual) and not a particular expression of intent.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on November 14, 2011, 07:33:13 AM
  Maria Callas is the most overrated opera singer of all time, a caricature of a diva.  Her hideously ugly voice makes fingernails on
a chalkboard sound pleasant by comparison . 
Enrico Caruso is also highly overrated. Compared to Pavarotti , he's  the proverbial bull in a china shop .
Toscanini  is the most overrated conductor of all time, particularly his NBC symphony recordings .  These  performances are almost with
out exception coarse, choppy , hectic, punchy, nervous,rushed, metronomically rigid .  and insensitive  .
  These performances are mechanical, joyless and stiffly regimented .
The late Sir Reginald Goodall was considered by many critics and fans to have been the greatest Wagner conductor of  the late 20th century.  But he didn't have a clue as to what Wagner's music is about .  His Ring ,Tristan and Parsifal recordings are impossibly lethargic and sluggish , without a shred of momentum ,let alone  the hair-raising intensity  and sweep of  Solti, who was THE Wagner conductor .
Goodall made a hash of the tempo relations in the operas,  reducing  everything to basically one impossibly sluggish tempo ,making Wagner's surgingly powerful music fall flat as the proverbial pancake .  He made Knappertsbusch seem like a speed demon in Wagner .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 08:15:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2011, 06:21:48 PM
Well Mahler's music doesn't bore me. It's exciting stuff to be sure. I'm just going to have to give him more time. I do remember being enthralled with Symphony No. 2 when I first heard it with Leonard Bernstein conducting the NY Philharmonic on Sony. Man, this is such an amazing performance all-around. I think I'm going to have a Mahler marathon either tomorrow or Tuesday. I just need to give ol' Mahler another chance. My Dad, you, Ilaria, many others on this forum love his music so it must mean something! 8)

Yes!!!!! :D
Enjoy John - I do hope you begin to love Mahler as much as we do here! :) Let us know!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 08:19:44 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 08:15:44 AM
Yes!!!!! :D
Enjoy John - I do hope you begin to love Mahler as much as we do here! :) Let us know!

Thanks, Daniel. I'm sure I'm going to enjoy the music, but at far as loving it, that may take some time. 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 08:24:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 08:19:44 AM
Thanks, Daniel. I'm sure I'm going to enjoy the music, but at far as loving it, that may take some time. 8)

haha ;) Of course, I understand! :) Which one will you go to next after no.2? :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 14, 2011, 08:26:43 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 08:24:31 AM
haha ;) Of course, I understand! :) Which one will you go to next after no.2? :)

No.5 would be a good choice...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 09:32:46 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 08:24:31 AM
haha ;) Of course, I understand! :) Which one will you go to next after no.2? :)

The 6th, which I understand is your favorite. ;) :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: BobsterLobster on November 14, 2011, 09:40:37 AM
I remember having to write essays on the hypothesis that music doesn't contain emotion. Academics typically assert Stravinsky's quote that "music is, by its very nature, essentially powerless to express anything at all". However, it seems blatantly obvious to me when I listen to music that emotions are carried within the music... but explaining this with cold logic is very tough. It reminds me of an academic friend of mine who is very logical... I was speaking to her about a piece of music which had "moved me down to my soul", and she had no idea what I was talking about, thinking about what a strange notion it would be to have a 'soul'!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 10:10:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 09:32:46 AM
The 6th, which I understand is your favorite. ;) :D

Yes! :) Along with no.9 of course! :) Which performance will you be going for? Bernstein I imagine? Solti is my absolute favourite for no.6. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 10:21:16 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 10:10:17 AM
Yes! :) Along with no.9 of course! :) Which performance will you be going for? Bernstein I imagine? Solti is my absolute favourite for no.6. :)

I don't know, Daniel. I'm just going to take it slow with Mahler and not try to rush things. I'm probably going to be re-listening to the 6th but with a different conductor/orchestra this time with Abbado/Berliners from this set:

[asin]B000009MCC[/asin]

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 10:29:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 10:21:16 AM
I don't know, Daniel. I'm just going to take it slow with Mahler and not try to rush things. I'm probably going to be re-listening to the 6th but with a different conductor/orchestra this time with Abbado/Berliners from this set:

[asin]B000009MCC[/asin]

That certainly is a great set. Solti always for me though! Sometimes I find Abbado a little under-tempo.... but still, his cycle would probably be my favourite Mahler cycle after Bernstein DG and Solti.
Enjoy, and keep me updated with your Mahler journey! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 14, 2011, 10:35:03 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 10:29:18 AM
Enjoy, and keep me updated with your Mahler journey! :)

when I finally got around to Mahler.. some time after the Strauss tone poems and Bruckner, I emersed myself for over 3 months, listening to almost nothing else in the mean time... I then took a bit of a break, then spent about another 6 weeks on all his vocal works; different Amazon packages arriving each week with new versions.. at the end of it all, I felt thoroughly 'Mahlered Out', but also felt a tremendous sense of personal achievement and joy...  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 10:35:34 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 10:29:18 AM
That certainly is a great set. Solti always for me though! Sometimes I find Abbado a little under-tempo.... but still, his cycle would probably be my favourite Mahler cycle after Bernstein DG and Solti.
Enjoy, and keep me updated with your Mahler journey! :)

Abbado's 7th is still one of the top performances of this symphony for me. I think this is one of the highlights of his set. Haven't heard any of his Mahler live recordings with the Berliners, have you? My Dad owns them all, but I haven't even listened to them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 10:37:58 AM
Quote from: Jared on November 14, 2011, 10:35:03 AM
when I finally got around to Mahler.. some time after the Strauss tone poems and Bruckner, I emersed myself for over 3 months, listening to almost nothing else in the mean time... I then took a bit of a break, then spent about another 6 weeks on all his vocal works; different Amazon packages arriving each week with new versions.. at the end of it all, I felt thoroughly 'Mahlered Out', but also felt a tremendous sense of personal achievement and joy...  :)

This is one of the problems I have is that get burnt out on certain composers from listening to them over a long period of time. Now, I try not to do this too often and listen to a variety of composers. I'm finding a lot of enjoyment in Mahler right now and I've always been amazed by how much of a genius he was.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 14, 2011, 10:41:39 AM
QuoteWell Mahler's music doesn't bore me. It's exciting stuff to be sure. I'm just going to have to give him more time. I do remember being enthralled with Symphony No. 2 when I first heard it with Leonard Bernstein conducting the NY Philharmonic on Sony. Man, this is such an amazing performance all-around. I think I'm going to have a Mahler marathon either tomorrow or Tuesday. I just need to give ol' Mahler another chance. My Dad, you, Ilaria, many others on this forum love his music so it must mean something! 8)

Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 08:15:44 AM
Yes!!!!! :D
Enjoy John - I do hope you begin to love Mahler as much as we do here! :) Let us know!

That's definitely great, I hope John will enjoy that beautiful, thrilling, evocative music! :D

Haha, here's the Mahler phase I was waiting for ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2011, 10:53:29 AM
Quote from: BobsterLobster on November 14, 2011, 09:40:37 AM
I remember having to write essays on the hypothesis that music doesn't contain emotion. Academics typically assert Stravinsky's quote that "music is, by its very nature, essentially powerless to express anything at all". However, it seems blatantly obvious to me when I listen to music that emotions are carried within the music... but explaining this with cold logic is very tough. It reminds me of an academic friend of mine who is very logical... I was speaking to her about a piece of music which had "moved me down to my soul", and she had no idea what I was talking about, thinking about what a strange notion it would be to have a 'soul'!

I think we've all had powerful experiences, and emotional experiences, as a result of listening to music.  Which is not the same thing as saying that these things are contained within the music.  But it's certainly a tangle, and quite often an enjoyable tangle.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 14, 2011, 10:59:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 10:37:58 AM
This is one of the problems I have is that get burnt out on certain composers from listening to them over a long period of time. Now, I try not to do this too often and listen to a variety of composers. I'm finding a lot of enjoyment in Mahler right now and I've always been amazed by how much of a genius he was.

Good for you... it's a truly rewarding journey for those with an open mind (and having read some of your posts, you seem to have that in spades..  ;)  )  I guess I mentioned it because Mahler really is the ONLY composer I felt I've ever had to do that with... when I was going through my 3 Bruckner cycles, I was chopping and changing out of lots of other composers at the same time, but Mahler jujst seemd to be significantly more daunting as prospect...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 11:15:10 AM
Quote from: Jared on November 14, 2011, 10:59:10 AM
Good for you... it's a truly rewarding journey for those with an open mind (and having read some of your posts, you seem to have that in spades..  ;)  )  I guess I mentioned it because Mahler really is the ONLY composer I felt I've ever had to do that with... when I was going through my 3 Bruckner cycles, I was chopping and changing out of lots of other composers at the same time, but Mahler jujst seemd to be significantly more daunting as prospect...

I'm not sure if I have an open-mind about music, but I do know what I enjoy, which, I suppose counts for something. I tend to favor 20th Century music the most, but the late-Romantics are some favorites as well. By the way, I'm not sure if I welcomed to the forum yet, but I hope you're enjoying your experience here so far. I've made some good friends here and there are so many knowledgeable people here. From Baroque to Contemporary music, there's somebody here who has dedicated their listening time exploring and educating themselves about their favorite time period.

The man in my avatar, Charles Koechlin, is my musical soulmate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 14, 2011, 11:22:35 AM
^^ thanks for the welcome...  8)

my tastes are fairly eclectic, from Tallis to Sibelius with lots in between, although much 20th Century is, thus far, a weak spot with me... but hey, life is a steep learning curve! (as I just appear to have denied in the Non-Classical Music Thread... ho-humm..  :D )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 11:28:06 AM
Quote from: Jared on November 14, 2011, 11:22:35 AM
^^ thanks for the welcome...  8)

my tastes are fairly eclectic, from Tallis to Sibelius with lots in between, although much 20th Century is, thus far, a weak spot with me... but hey, life is a steep learning curve! (as I just appear to have denied in the Non-Classical Music Thread... ho-humm..  :D )

Ah, love Sibelius. I still have a soft-spot for his music. I went on a huge Sibelius shopping spree many years ago. Now, I've ran out of things to buy. ;) Anyway, you say the 20th Century is a weak spot for you? Could you elaborate on this?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 14, 2011, 11:34:14 AM
^^ yes, I sometimes joke that my musical taste in CM takes in most things up to 1913, plus Vaughan-Williams, Sibelius and Nielsen...  :-[

am really hitting the Rennaissance stuff at present... it's a wonderful journey, but am quite sure that in time, my knowledge and appreciation will expand to include more 20th Cent...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: Jared on November 14, 2011, 11:34:14 AM
^^ yes, I sometimes joke that my musical taste in CM takes in most things up to 1913, plus Vaughan-Williams, Sibelius and Nielsen...  :-[

am really hitting the Rennaissance stuff at present... it's a wonderful journey, but am quite sure that in time, my knowledge and appreciation will expand to include more 20th Cent...

For me, I don't listen to a lot of post-WII composers. I'm not sure why, but I'm just not too keen on what's going on in classical music these days. I hope Karl Henning doesn't beat me up for saying that. 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 14, 2011, 11:48:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 11:43:28 AM
For me, I don't listen to a lot of post-WII composers. I'm not sure why, but I'm just not too keen on what's going on in classical music these days. I hope Karl Henning doesn't beat me up for saying that. 8)

Let's just say that he won't be dedicating this year's Thanksgiving Motet to you...  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: Jared on November 14, 2011, 11:48:36 AM
Let's just say that he won't be dedicating this year's Thanksgiving Motet to you...  ;D

:P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 14, 2011, 01:54:45 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 14, 2011, 10:53:29 AM
I think we've all had powerful experiences, and emotional experiences, as a result of listening to music.  Which is not the same thing as saying that these things are contained within the music.  But it's certainly a tangle, and quite often an enjoyable tangle.

I've been a bit too busy to jump on this thread,as I would but a couple of points to ponder.    I agree, it's a tangle, and a fascinating one.  And I do think it is more of how we react and any"emotion" in what we hear- but some things tend to create the same reactions, but this is more of a tendency than an absolute.

On a raw acoustic level, there are some common responses people have to types of sound.  Subsonic can be unsettling.  Fingernails on a chalkboard also can set people on edge more then, say, door chimes.   We can open up Helmholtz and think in terms of what is perceived as consonance and dissonance, and think there must be some immutable laws.

However, if we  talk about eternal principles of what is consonance,  it seems that the rules were changing.  Listen to early music, and the minor third is pretty much a dissonant interval, so much so that one common tactic was to end a minor sounding modal tune with a major third (the Picardy  Third) .  To modern ears, this may sound dissonant, while we can listen to a whole minor key work without angst.   (Unless it's by John Tesh).   So, to some degree, there must be some cultural element and experience that shapes how we react.  So, are our reactions a totally matter of sociological conditioning?

But, to contradict myself again (I like doing that), if you expose someone to an Indian Raga for the first time,  they will definitely react to the static harmonic quality, the presence of natural tempered intervals, and the different approach to rhythm.   It is not necessary to  school them in the Carnatic or Hindustani tradition to get this reaction.  There is a more raw and basic reaction.  Are there immutable laws of "greatness", "dissonance", etc?


But, to contradict myself again, all you need to do is to look at this forum to see that it is hard to find two people from generally the same culture who can agree on the greatness of a Beethoven or a Mozart.  Some people are drawn to different forms, scales, etc.  It was interesting that Scriabin and Rimsky Korsakov both saw colors in different key signatures, but could not agree compoletely, and there was one key that RK could not "see".  I'm definitely drawn to minor scales and modes, and I'm anal enough to sort my Complete Bach by minor vs major.   Why the variation?   Could some of these reactions be genetic, or based on experience? 


The final issue in this big tangle is the battle between the intellect and emotions (the Apollonian vs Dionysiac- where is Saul when you need him?)  Or maybe it isn't a battle, in my way of thinking, but  more of a matter of levels of consciousness, right or left brain, or however you chose to define these modes  inside your head.   Some of the impact of raw sounds, drones, etc, I associate with a more trancelike state, and I usually find Indian, modal jazz, and minamlist stuff great for that sort of reaction. There is a lot of emphasis on timbre, and repetition, and typically a limited harmonic palatte.  But if I'm in a more "wakeful" mood, i find this music empty, and I need more complexity and more structure.     Bach seems to hit both lobes at the  same time for me.  In collecting music, I try to find something for each mood-- although it may be the other way.  I may be selecting the music to alter my mood, rather than reflect it.


One thing Copeland said that I admired is with all of the attention we've given to composers and performers, very little has been done in defining or guiding the listener, which is the third point on the triangle.  Many of the disagreements I've seen on these and other forums is that people tended to assume that everyone else listened the same, and was not bringing a complex set of historical, cultural, and physiological baggage with them.  If it wasn't such a confusing tangle,  music, and the perception of it, would not be half as interesting.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 14, 2011, 01:57:35 PM
Quote from: starrynight on November 14, 2011, 07:23:18 AM
I think there is some universality to music and the relation of emotions to music or sounds.   And of course as time has gone on with the increasing globalisation this universality has been more and more evident.  Also I don't think emotion is an abstraction, it's a very real thing with which we react to something.  Emotions can combine our senses with an intellectual response to something.   If we are talking about very precise meanings then obviously that may not specifically apply to a particular listener, but a general feeling can still apply and link composer, performer and listener.  That's why you don't necessarily have to read music critics and understand all about a composer's life to enjoy music.  I still think the best way is to just listen to more of a composer's or a particular period's music to get more inside it and past its surface sound to its intent.

Really I think music touches on emotions and the intellect, both are combined.  It may well be the same with other arts too, though the intellectual side is more to the surface perhaps in most other cases.  With music, initially at least,  we take it more directly as its pure state (sound) rather than as just an artwork.  And music is enjoyed by most people, it is easy to take in somehow compared to other arts, maybe because it is so uniquitous now and we are so used to hearing it all the time thanks to recording and transmitting technology.  This is a positive in that people can be more open to music, but might be a negative as people take it for granted without thinking about it more.  Food I think is different, to most people it is largely sustenance (and purely sensory and not intellectual) and not a particular expression of intent.

I didn't read this before posting, but I strongly agree with most of this.  The only bone I'd pick is that Music is sustenance for some of us....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 10:37:58 AM
This is one of the problems I have is that get burnt out on certain composers from listening to them over a long period of time. Now, I try not to do this too often and listen to a variety of composers. I'm finding a lot of enjoyment in Mahler right now and I've always been amazed by how much of a genius he was.

:)  :)   :)  :)
And one of my goals of the year has been achieved! :)
I am so glad that you are enjoying Mahler more now John! Keep us updated with your Mahler journey! :)
About the Abbado recordings, yes, that 7th is certainly one of the best! For no.7, I also particularly love Rattle's recording! One of the highlights in his cycle in my opinion, along with the excellent 2, 4, 9, 10. :)
Yes, I have heard most of the live Abbado/Berlin Phil Mahler recordings, a particularly excellent 6 and 9!

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 14, 2011, 10:41:39 AM
Haha, here's the Mahler phase I was waiting for ;)

For John, it is finally come! This makes such happy reading! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Geo Dude on November 14, 2011, 03:55:29 PM
Let's see...

I feel that Brahms equaled or exceeded Beethoven in every genre he (Brahms) attempted, with the exception of string quartets and solo piano works.

Following from that, I feel that Brahms was the greatest composer of the romantic period.

Schubert's late string quartets do not appeal to me.  Not yet at least.

Most 20th century music is of little interest to me, with some exceptions (Sibelius, some of Stravinsky's choral work, some Villa Lobos, among others) I simply don't find the musical language(s) used to be appealing.

The interpretation is often one of my favorite elements of HIP performances.

I prefer composers' symphonies to be played by the number of performers they were written for, rather than using larger forces just for the sake of a 'big' sound.

I prefer Bach on the harpsichord to Bach on the piano.

For that matter, I prefer most music to be played on the instruments it was written for.

With some notable exceptions, I prefer to spend my money by exploring the obscure works of my favorite composers, rather than exploring obscure composers.

I think that's enough for now.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 04:12:17 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 14, 2011, 02:00:34 PM
:)  :)   :)  :)
And one of my goals of the year has been achieved! :)
I am so glad that you are enjoying Mahler more now John! Keep us updated with your Mahler journey! :)
About the Abbado recordings, yes, that 7th is certainly one of the best! For no.7, I also particularly love Rattle's recording! One of the highlights in his cycle in my opinion, along with the excellent 2, 4, 9, 10. :)
Yes, I have heard most of the live Abbado/Berlin Phil Mahler recordings, a particularly excellent 6 and 9!

Thanks, Daniel. I'm sure you and my Dad could talk about Mahler for many hours. You should see his collection of Mahler. I agree that the 7th in Rattle's cycle is fantastic.

I hate to say this to you but I'm about to start a Bartok phase, but I will be listening to Mahler too. By the way, did you get that Bartok/Boulez set on DG? You will find many musical treasures in this box.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 15, 2011, 02:31:17 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on November 14, 2011, 03:55:29 PM
I feel that Brahms equaled or exceeded Beethoven in every genre he (Brahms) attempted, with the exception of string quartets and solo piano works.


They are rather big exceptions.  What about wind music (purely or very largely for wind instruments)?  Beethoven better there too?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jared on November 15, 2011, 03:43:10 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on November 14, 2011, 03:55:29 PM
Let's see...

Wow...

I feel that Brahms equaled or exceeded Beethoven in every genre he (Brahms) attempted, with the exception of string quartets and solo piano works.

I don't quite agree with this, but Brahms wasn't far behind..

Following from that, I feel that Brahms was the greatest composer of the romantic period.

Taking LvB out of the equation, I agree with you...  

Schubert's late string quartets do not appeal to me.  Not yet at least.

They are masterpieces.. try the more accessible Quintets & Octet first, then come back to them (via Quartetto Italiano)

Most 20th century music is of little interest to me, with some exceptions (Sibelius, some of Stravinsky's choral work, some Villa Lobos, among others) I simply don't find the musical language(s) used to be appealing.

I personally would add RVW and Nielsen, but take away Stravinsky, but agree with your general sentiment..

The interpretation is often one of my favorite elements of HIP performances.

I can see that... I also like the textures...

I prefer composers' symphonies to be played by the number of performers they were written for, rather than using larger forces just for the sake of a 'big' sound.

agree completely (unless it's Klemperer's Missa Solemnis of course, for which I'm willing to make an exception...)

I prefer Bach on the harpsichord to Bach on the piano.

I like both in equal measure, but I really struggle to appreciate the Organ.

For that matter, I prefer most music to be played on the instruments it was written for.

yes, although Catrin Finch's reworked Goldbergs for Harp are certainly interesting..

With some notable exceptions, I prefer to spend my money by exploring the obscure works of my favorite composers, rather than exploring obscure composers.

I tend to agree here, too...  

I think that's enough for now.

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 03:49:16 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 11, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
Domenico Scarlatti is a giant of music who was ahead of his time. This probably wouldn't qualify as unpopular if his works received more attention. I've heard people say that Bach is the only Baroque composer worth noting.

D. Scarlatti is certainly one of the greats.

I don't doubt that you have . . . but I am pleased to say I have never heard anyone so cloth-eared as to say that Bach is the only &c.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: canninator on November 15, 2011, 04:14:44 AM
Interesting thread. Well here's (one of) mine

The true measure of a composer lies in their work for a solo instrument (whatever instrument it may be). If it is lacking, then so is that composer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 05:01:15 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 15, 2011, 04:14:44 AM
The true measure of a composer lies in their work for a solo instrument (whatever instrument it may be). If it is lacking, then so is that composer.

I don't think that will wash at all, at all.  An interesting idea;  but, no:  a flawed litmus test.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: canninator on November 15, 2011, 05:22:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 15, 2011, 05:01:15 AM
I don't think that will wash at all, at all.  An interesting idea;  but, no:  a flawed litmus test.

Of my many flaws, this is among the most insignificant. In fact, were one to observe my flaws as a parade, this one would be barely noticeable. This flaw would still be polishing its bugle while other, more obvious and flagrant flaws, would be banging their drums to some inspecting dictator.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 05:28:42 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 15, 2011, 05:22:26 AM
Of my many flaws, this is among the most insignificant. In fact, were one to observe my flaws as a parade, this one would be barely noticeable. This flaw would still be polishing its bugle while other, more obvious and flagrant flaws, would be banging their drums to some inspecting dictator.  :D

Meh, you call those flaws?!  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Geo Dude on November 15, 2011, 05:59:26 AM
Quote from: starrynight on November 15, 2011, 02:31:17 AM
They are rather big exceptions.  What about wind music (purely or very largely for wind instruments)?  Beethoven better there too?

I agree that they are rather big exceptions.  Beethoven was an unparalleled genius when it came to both (very important) categories and I do not mean to demean him in order to elevate Brahms.  I apologize if it came across that way. 

I am not familiar with Beethoven's works for winds, so I can't comment on that.  Thanks for reminding me of a gap in my knowledge I need to fill, though.



Jared:  I view Beethoven as a classical composer (albeit, an unusually personality-filled one), rather than a romantic.

...And yes, Klemperer's Missa Solemnis is an exception. :D  I do prefer smaller forces if they're called for, but a great interpretation is a great interpretation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 07:58:37 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 15, 2011, 04:14:44 AM
Interesting thread. Well here's (one of) mine

The true measure of a composer lies in their work for a solo instrument (whatever instrument it may be). If it is lacking, then so is that composer.

How?! Taking Mahler for example - he wrote no solo music, but (here is another what may be unpopular opinion)
MAHLER IS THE GREATEST COMPOSER OF ALL!

I am sure many of you will disagree with me, and hopefully some will agree as well. But this is a view I definitely believe!

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 04:12:17 PM
Thanks, Daniel. I'm sure you and my Dad could talk about Mahler for many hours. You should see his collection of Mahler. I agree that the 7th in Rattle's cycle is fantastic.

I hate to say this to you but I'm about to start a Bartok phase, but I will be listening to Mahler too. By the way, did you get that Bartok/Boulez set on DG? You will find many musical treasures in this box.

haha :) I could talk to anyone who loves Mahler for many hours! :) I am fascinated by his collection - which complete cycles does he have? Don't suppose you could upload a photo of it to one of the 'cd collection' threads here?
Glad that you will still listen to Mahler too! The Bartok/Boulez set is resting in my amazon basket at the moment, after the move from the wishlist. Looking forward to hearing it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 07:58:37 AMhaha :) I could talk to anyone who loves Mahler for many hours! :) I am fascinated by his collection - which complete cycles does he have? Don't suppose you could upload a photo of it to one of the 'cd collection' threads here?

Glad that you will still listen to Mahler too! The Bartok/Boulez set is resting in my amazon basket at the moment, after the move from the wishlist. Looking forward to hearing it.

What Mahler box sets does my Dad own? He owns all of them. 8) Of course when he was collecting, there have been several instances where a performance has been duplicated, but this is a common problem with collectors. Since there are so many new Mahler recordings coming out, I don't think he collects Mahler much anymore. Once another conductor completes a cycle, is when when he said he will buy some more recordings. But he owns every complete cycle and half-cycle available. He owns a ton of one shot performances too.

Edit: I just asked him what set he lacked and the the only one is MTT's cycle. He owns several of MTT's newer recordings, but he hasn't completed the cycle.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 08:29:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 08:26:11 AM
What Mahler box sets does my Dad own? He owns all of them. 8) Of course when he was collecting, there have been several instances where a performance has been duplicated, but this is a common problem with collectors. Since there are so many new Mahler recordings coming out, I don't think he collects Mahler much anymore. Once another conductor completes a cycle, is when when he said he will buy some more recordings. But he owns every complete cycle and half-cycle available. He owns a ton of one shot performances too.

Edit: I just asked him what set he lacked and the the only one is MTT's cycle. He owns several of MTT's newer recordings, but he hasn't completed the cycle.

:o

All of them.... (apart from MTT)... gosh... I really would love to meet your dad! ;) Which is his favourite cycle? And which is his favourite Mahler symphony? He should join GMG!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 08:30:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2011, 11:43:28 AM
For me, I don't listen to a lot of post-WII composers. I'm not sure why, but I'm just not too keen on what's going on in classical music these days. I hope Karl Henning doesn't beat me up for saying that. 8)

I've wondered if you left Facebook as a result of my asking you to go hear a colleague's opera performed . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Geo Dude on November 15, 2011, 08:43:29 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 15, 2011, 04:14:44 AM
Interesting thread. Well here's (one of) mine

The true measure of a composer lies in their work for a solo instrument (whatever instrument it may be). If it is lacking, then so is that composer.

I don't intend to argue this point with you, but I'm curious for an explanation of why you feel this way.  I am sure it will be interesting.

By the way, which composers, using this metric, do you feel are say...the top five?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
I love Philip Glass's constantly repeating arpeggios music....






Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on November 15, 2011, 08:55:47 AM
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
Giggling is something little girls do. Just letting you know.

Jowcol - add to next bingo card!!   ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 08:56:54 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 08:29:24 AM
:o

All of them.... (apart from MTT)... gosh... I really would love to meet your dad! ;) Which is his favourite cycle? And which is his favourite Mahler symphony? He should join GMG!  ;D

Yep, all of them. :) My Dad is a cool person and has always had a passion for music. His favorite Mahler cycle? It's Bernstein's first cycle with the NY Philharmonic. My Dad's favorite Mahler symphony is the 5th.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:01:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 08:56:54 AM
Yep, all of them. :) My Dad is a cool person and has always had a passion for music. His favorite Mahler cycle? It's Bernstein's first cycle with the NY Philharmonic. My Dad's favorite Mahler symphony is the 5th.


5th is probably my least liked symphony, but contains one of my favorite Mahler movements, the third mvt. Scherzo, I do truly love it, being a former horn player I used to search for all the great horn solos and this was one I used to always want to play.

Otherwise I skip the 2nd and 5th mvts.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on November 15, 2011, 09:07:53 AM
Outside of Vivaldi, I find Baroque orchestral music boring as dishwater.  I love Bach's instrumental works though, for cello, violin and piano.  Everything Handel bores me, and I'll never listen to Handel's Messiah, EVER again.

I have a love/hate relationship with Stravinsky.  His early and middle stuff is amazing, but his late works (not all though) bore me to tears.  I can't stand Les Noces.

I don't like English Opera, or any works sung in English language.  I think this is a rebellious/aversion phase from my pop/rock music listening days, and I hope this 'bigotness' of mine regarding this will go away someday.  :(

Schumann is underrated, and Schubert is nearly as underrated (sorry David)! ;)

Sergei Taneyev is the most underrated composer in Classical Music - period.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on November 15, 2011, 09:09:36 AM
I now prefer Mozart's Symphony No. 39 over his 40th and 41st symphonies.  :o

My favourite Mozart string quartet is the No. 20 Hoffmeister quartet, K. 499  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 15, 2011, 09:07:53 AM

I don't like English Opera, or any works sung in English language.  I think this is a rebellious/aversion phase from my pop/rock music listening days, and I hope this 'bigotness' of mine regarding this will go away someday.  :(



This used to be an issue I had also, but Britten changed that for me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on November 15, 2011, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:13:16 AM

This used to be an issue I had also, but Britten changed that for me.

Thanks Greg, perhaps I'll give that a shot.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:17:58 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 15, 2011, 09:14:05 AM
Thanks Greg, perhaps I'll give that a shot.  :)


You could try something like Britten's Midsummer Night's Dream, it's light and it's Shakespeare so that could help with possibly being familiar with the words.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 09:19:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 08:56:54 AM
Yep, all of them. :) My Dad is a cool person and has always had a passion for music. His favorite Mahler cycle? It's Bernstein's first cycle with the NY Philharmonic. My Dad's favorite Mahler symphony is the 5th.

Get him to join GMG then! ;)
Interesting choices... surprised he didn't go for the DG Bernstein instead of Sony Bernstein... interesting! :) Which is least favourite Mahler cycle, out of interest?

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:01:25 AM

5th is probably my least liked symphony, but contains one of my favorite Mahler movements, the third mvt. Scherzo, I do truly love it, being a former horn player I used to search for all the great horn solos and this was one I used to always want to play.


I wouldn't call the 5th my least favourite, I couldn't call any of the Mahler symphonies a least favourite! I agree with you about the Scherzo though, one of my favourite Mahler movements as well! :)

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 15, 2011, 09:07:53 AM
I have a love/hate relationship with Stravinsky.  His early and middle stuff is amazing, but his late works (not all though) bore me to tears.  I can't stand Les Noces.


Completely agree with you on this, Ray. Absolutely love The Firebird, The Rite of Spring, Petrushka, Symphony in Three Movements, but find many of his other works plainly a bore... sorry to those Stravinsky fans out there!

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 09:22:50 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 15, 2011, 09:07:53 AM
E e y h n a d l b e s me

Must be interference on the toobs. Did you say something?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:23:43 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 09:19:16 AM

I wouldn't call the 5th my least favourite, I couldn't call any of the Mahler symphonies a least favourite! I agree with you about the Scherzo though, one of my favourite Mahler movements as well! :)



I also really enjoy the Scherzo from No.7, again the best mvt. from that symphony...although No.7 is along side No.3 & No.9 as my favorite.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on November 15, 2011, 09:25:11 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 09:22:50 AM
Must be interference on the toobs. Did you say something?  ;D

:D Clever!!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 09:29:20 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 09:19:16 AM
Get him to join GMG then! ;)
Interesting choices... surprised he didn't go for the DG Bernstein instead of Sony Bernstein... interesting! :) Which is least favourite Mahler cycle, out of interest?

I wouldn't call the 5th my least favourite, I couldn't call any of the Mahler symphonies a least favourite! I agree with you about the Scherzo though, one of my favourite Mahler movements as well! :)

Completely agree with you on this, Ray. Absolutely love The Firebird, The Rite of Spring, Petrushka, Symphony in Three Movements, but find many of his other works plainly a bore... sorry to those Stravinsky fans out there!

I can surely see why my Dad picked Bernstein I. It's absolutely exhilarating music-making in the highest order. Bernstein was on fire and the NY Philharmonic give it their all.

My Dad doesn't like Internet forums and prefers the older Internet way of communicating: email. 8).

His choice of the 5th doesn't come as a big surprise to me as he was, in his younger years, a trumpeter and played in the school band. The first movement of the 5th (Trauermarsch) is where I think my Dad found a kinship with Mahler --- that wonderful trumpet solo. I think the 5th is a fine symphony too, but it's not my favorite Mahler symphony, but I can understand why my Dad loves it so much. My favorite Mahler symphony is the 7th. There's nothing else like in all of his music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on November 15, 2011, 09:32:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 09:29:20 AM
I can surely see why my Dad picked Bernstein I. It's absolutely exhilarating music-making in the highest order. Bernstein was on fire and the NY Philharmonic give it their all.

My Dad doesn't like Internet forums and prefers the older Internet way of communicating: email. 8).

His choice of the 5th doesn't come as a big surprise to me as he was, in his younger years, a trumpeter and played in the school band. The first movement of the 5th (Trauermarsch) is where I think my Dad found a kinship with Mahler --- that wonderful trumpet solo. I think the 5th is a fine symphony too, but it's not my favorite Mahler symphony, but I can understand why my Dad loves it so much. My favorite Mahler symphony is the 7th. There's nothing else like in all of his music.

Hi John,

I'm curious - how does your father view the Tennstedt/LPO Mahler recordings?  And what is his favourite recording of Mahler's 6th (for the Andante moderato movement)?

Thanks!  :)

Ray
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 09:35:47 AM
I'm a great Stravinsky fan, and Ray and I are still mates : )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:38:07 AM
Since we are on Stravinsky...

His Neoclassical period produced his greatest music. <----(this is an unpopular opinion and cannot be supported with facts.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 09:42:45 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 15, 2011, 09:32:53 AM
Hi John,

I'm curious - how does your father view the Tennstedt/LPO Mahler recordings?  And what is his favourite recording of Mahler's 6th (for the Andante moderato movement)?

Thanks!  :)

Ray

Ray, I remember my Dad having a very favorable response to Tennstedt's Mahler recordings. I'm not sure how much he listens to them, but know he does like them. His favorite Mahler 6th recording? Probably Bernstein I. This is his favorite cycle, so I assume he likes everything about it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on November 15, 2011, 09:45:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 09:42:45 AM
Ray, I remember my Dad having a very favorable response to Tennstedt's Mahler recordings. I'm not sure how much he listens to them, but know he does like them. His favorite Mahler 6th recording? Probably Bernstein I. This is his favorite cycle, so I assume he likes everything about it.

Thanks, John!  :)  Gee, I wish you Dad would sign up here.  Perhaps he could help put the 'Mahler Mania thread' over top of 'Havergal Brian thread'!  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 15, 2011, 09:23:43 AM

I also really enjoy the Scherzo from No.7, again the best mvt. from that symphony...although No.7 is along side No.3 & No.9 as my favorite.

The scherzo from no.7 is certainly amazing. Although my favourite movement from that symphony would be m1. :) Love the symphony as a whole really! My absolute favourite Mahler symphonies would be no.6 and 9 definitely. After that it is difficult to choose between them!

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 09:29:20 AM
I can surely see why my Dad picked Bernstein I. It's absolutely exhilarating music-making in the highest order. Bernstein was on fire and the NY Philharmonic give it their all.

My Dad doesn't like Internet forums and prefers the older Internet way of communicating: email. 8).

His choice of the 5th doesn't come as a big surprise to me as he was, in his younger years, a trumpeter and played in the school band. The first movement of the 5th (Trauermarsch) is where I think my Dad found a kinship with Mahler --- that wonderful trumpet solo. I think the 5th is a fine symphony too, but it's not my favorite Mahler symphony, but I can understand why my Dad loves it so much. My favorite Mahler symphony is the 7th. There's nothing else like in all of his music.

Certainly! Great performances, although I personally think the DG recordings are better, more excitment, passion, power, beauty. Plus the Vienna Philharmonic are absolutely amazing!
Ah, I see ;)

I see what you mean about no.7, nothing else like it! To be accurate, each Mahler symphony is different than the other! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 09:58:59 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 15, 2011, 09:45:59 AM
Thanks, John!  :)  Gee, I wish you Dad would sign up here.  Perhaps he could help put the 'Mahler Mania thread' over top of 'Havergal Brian thread'!  :D

:D I've told him about GMG, but he's not too interested. He has so many other interests besides music that take up a lot of his time like film, television, collecting rare watches, among other things. I have other interest too like video games, film, television (preferably early to mid 90s), etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 15, 2011, 10:02:41 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 15, 2011, 08:55:47 AM
Jowcol - add to next bingo card!!   ;D

Actually, Bingo is not the name of the game this time around... A bit busy at work, but the next one is nearly done...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 10:10:10 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 09:46:15 AM
The scherzo from no.7 is certainly amazing. Although my favourite movement from that symphony would be m1. :) Love the symphony as a whole really! My absolute favourite Mahler symphonies would be no.6 and 9 definitely. After that it is difficult to choose between them!

Certainly! Great performances, although I personally think the DG recordings are better, more excitment, passion, power, beauty. Plus the Vienna Philharmonic are absolutely amazing!
Ah, I see ;)

I see what you mean about no.7, nothing else like it! To be accurate, each Mahler symphony is different than the other! :)

I disagree that Bernstein II is more passionate than Bernstein I. Just comparing the 2nd symphony, Bernstein I seems more energized and he really lets the orchestra cut loose, whereas Bernstein II, while still very good, sounds a little lackluster and not as driven. I tend to favor Bernstein's early recordings over his older ones in general anyway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 15, 2011, 10:18:23 AM
Quote from: James on November 12, 2011, 01:04:30 PM
You are a humorless twit who could use a page out of the insult comic's handbook. And Cage is mindless crap that any unmusical shithead could pull off. Now if you excuse me, I'm off to the washroom to perform to my latest opus in his honour.

Speaking of which-  It's positively eerie how the author here fuses the image of excretion with the act of creation.  This was the closing  thesis of this humble scholar in the "Through a Brown Mirror Darkly" Chapter of "The Essential James" (link below).

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18249.msg503521.html#msg503521 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18249.msg503521.html#msg503521)

His constant mindfulness of the creative act permeates every pore of his being.   And the fact that he is willing to share his waste products with us, summoned from the core of his creative essence for the honor of another artist, is something that we should be grateful for.

What he has managed to accomplish, with the precision of  a jeweler and the passion of a saint, is to distill the entire chapter into a phrase of pure magic, and, if I dare say so myself, GENIUS.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 10:23:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 15, 2011, 10:10:10 AM
I disagree that Bernstein II is more passionate than Bernstein I. Just comparing the 2nd symphony, Bernstein I seems more energized and he really lets the orchestra cut loose, whereas Bernstein II, while still very good, sounds a little lackluster and not as driven. I tend to favor Bernstein's early recordings over his older ones in general anyway.

hmmm... Well, I think it depends which symphony we are discussing. For no.2, perhaps yes. But taking no.6 as an example, Bernstein II for me is so much more brilliant, making Bernstein I sound dull in comparison. But I suppose there are some symphonies that I prefer Bernstein I for. Another issue I have is the sound, to which I much prefer Bernstein II. :)

Statement....
Surely Haydn was more of a genius that Mozart?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 10:23:30 AM
Surely Haydn was more of a genius that Mozart?

Surely such a comparison is futile?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 10:28:09 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 10:23:30 AM
Statement....
Surely Haydn was more of a genius that Mozart?

In lieu of a definitive statement by the Gurnatron 5500, may I say, Welcome to the club!  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 10:30:58 AM
I'll never believe that Gurn would sign on to such a sentiment.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 10:35:46 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 10:28:09 AM
In lieu of a definitive statement by the Gurnatron 5500, may I say, Welcome to the club!  :D

haha :) Thank you!

Quote from: karlhenning on November 15, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
Surely such a comparison is futile?
Well, I'm just saying - maybe Mozart was capable of more beauty, power etc, but Haydn was the greater genius and did more to revolutionise music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 10:43:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 15, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
Surely such a comparison is futile?

Well, yes.  :-[

But it's fun!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 10:44:38 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 10:35:46 AM
Well, I'm just saying - maybe Mozart was capable of more beauty, power etc, but Haydn was the greater genius and did more to revolutionise music.

And why is "did more to revolutionise music" greater genius than "capable of more beauty, power, &c."?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 11:45:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 15, 2011, 10:44:38 AM
And why is "did more to revolutionise music" greater genius than "capable of more beauty, power, &c."?

Well, the one who is more daringly original tends to be a greater genius... I suppose "capable of more beauty, power" would come under being a great composer, not all great composers have to be geniuses!

Thought of the day! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 11:56:52 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 11:45:45 AM
Well, the one who is more daringly original tends to be a greater genius...

Thank you for conceding that Mozart is the greater genius. Exhibit A:  the piano concerti.  Exhibit B: the da Ponte operas and Die Zauberflöte.  Exhibit C: the Requiem.  Exhibit D: the clarinet concerto.

You know, I should not normally have compared the genius of Haydn with that of Mozart, but would content myself with enjoying their several demonstrations of musical genius; but now that you frame the matter so clearly, you're right: Haydn is but an also-ran.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 11:59:23 AM
This is cast into sharper relief, for my having just reviewed sound samples of the Haydn keyboard concerti.  Pleasant works, well written, and indeed, the work of a master.  But works which Mozart's concerti leave in the dust.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2011, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 15, 2011, 11:59:23 AM
This is cast into sharper relief, for my having just reviewed sound samples of the Haydn keyboard concerti.  Pleasant works, well written, and indeed, the work of a master.  But works which Mozart's concerti leave in the dust.

Not to dispute the genius of Mozart, but you pick a loaded example. If you compared symphonies instead of piano concertos, Haydn leaves Mozart gasping in the dust. Same with string quartets. Same with piano trios. The piano concertos were composed by a virtuoso keyboardist needing a vehicle to make himself a public figure. They served that purpose admirably. Haydn's were composed to play in a country church in the middle of a mass. Hardly a fair comparison... :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 12:28:12 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 15, 2011, 11:56:52 AM
Thank you for conceding that Mozart is the greater genius. Exhibit A:  the piano concerti.  Exhibit B: the da Ponte operas and Die Zauberflöte.  Exhibit C: the Requiem.  Exhibit D: the clarinet concerto.

You know, I should not normally have compared the genius of Haydn with that of Mozart, but would content myself with enjoying their several demonstrations of musical genius; but now that you frame the matter so clearly, you're right: Haydn is but an also-ran.


I agree with Gurn, not really a fair comparison! Haydn did not write many piano concerti and these are not considered his greatest works anyway. It is really the symphony that we should turn to for Haydn's genius. I would have to say that I personally prefer any of Mozart's last six or so symphonies over any of Haydn's, but if we take the complete cycle as a whole, Haydn would have to come out on top. Plus, Haydn pretty well created the symphony! For a while, in his earlier symphonies, Mozart just followed Haydn's example. Of course this changed when later on though. Really, it's only when it gets into number 30's and 40's that Mozart's symphonies can truly be called masterpieces...
In my humble opinion of course...

And remember, I never argued or wished to argue that Mozart was not a genius! The Requiem is a perfect work to show that!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: canninator on November 15, 2011, 12:44:23 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on November 15, 2011, 08:43:29 AM
I don't intend to argue this point with you, but I'm curious for an explanation of why you feel this way.  I am sure it will be interesting.

By the way, which composers, using this metric, do you feel are say...the top five?

A rule of thumb rather than iron clad rule. top 5 off the top of my head by this metric. Beethoven, Bach, Schoenberg, Debussy, and Feldman (controversial!). There are clear exceptions, those who wrote predominantly for solo instrument (Chopin, Liszt, Sor), those for whom the solo instrument is not necessarily a part of there musical philosophy (spectralists, although Grisey is so good in my mind because of his treatment of the viola), then there are those who pretty much ignored the genre but who to my mind are still giants (Bruckner). By and large I Don't connect with some, to many, great composers but for who I don't rate their solo instrument output (Ligetti(bar some key pieces) and Henze spring to my mind). Barraque is interesting because his piano sonata is so great but I'm not a fan of his remaining small output. There are so many exceptions but it's just something that seems to fit with me so IDont mind being thought wrong, after all I know I am!

btw add MEssiaen to my expanded top 5

excuse typing, darn ipads
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 15, 2011, 12:52:25 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 15, 2011, 12:10:08 PM
Not to dispute the genius of Mozart, but you pick a loaded example. If you compared symphonies instead of piano concertos, Haydn leaves Mozart gasping in the dust.
Tastes differ, even among reasonable folks.  As much as I like Haydn's symphonies, I would take just one of Mozart's -- the 40th -- over ALL of Haydn's.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 15, 2011, 01:13:44 PM
Ok let's make a better comparison, let's assume Haydn had died at 35 like Mozart and then compare their achievements.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 15, 2011, 01:20:40 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 12:28:12 PM
but if we take the complete cycle as a whole, Haydn would have to come out on top. Plus, Haydn pretty well created the symphony! For a while, in his earlier symphonies, Mozart just followed Haydn's example. Of course this changed when later on though. Really, it's only when it gets into number 30's and 40's that Mozart's symphonies can truly be called masterpieces...

Mozart was no slouch even in his earlier symphonies, and he was influenced by more than just Haydn's symphonies.  But overall Haydn achieved more in the symphonic genre, not as he invented the genre (which is questionable anyway) but because of the scale of the achievement.  Mozart's acheivement in that area is also great though and he is still among the greatest in that genre.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 01:47:06 PM
Quote from: starrynight on November 15, 2011, 01:13:44 PM
Ok let's make a better comparison, let's assume Haydn had died at 35 like Mozart and then compare their achievements.  :D

Well... that would change it a lot....
Quote from: starrynight on November 15, 2011, 01:20:40 PM
Mozart's acheivement in that area is also great though and he is still among the greatest in that genre.

I agree!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 15, 2011, 01:48:30 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 09:46:15 AM
The scherzo from no.7 is certainly amazing. Although my favourite movement from that symphony would be m1. :) Love the symphony as a whole really! My absolute favourite Mahler symphonies would be no.6 and 9 definitely. After that it is difficult to choose between them!

Okay, I'll have to confess, I just sat through Mahler's 6th (Bernstein), and really enjoyed it more than I have have before.  Definitely worth a few more listens.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 15, 2011, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: Il Furioso on November 15, 2011, 04:14:44 AM
Interesting thread. Well here's (one of) mine

The true measure of a composer lies in their work for a solo instrument (whatever instrument it may be). If it is lacking, then so is that composer.

I don't think it's a measure of their worth, but with many composers their solo works are the best indicators of their style. I'd say the Op. 87 Preludes and Fugues sum up Shostakovitch much better than any symphony or string quartet of his does.

For another thought, a think there's a basic rule in music that is often derided or undervalued by classical music people: if it sounds
good, it is good. I know it's fun to try and think of different ways to praise music, but we can get too caught up in who's a genius and so and so is the most important composer of whenever. "Ravel wrote the most important piano works of the 20th Century!" What? Unless you're using "important" as a synonym for "influential," I have no idea what that means.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 15, 2011, 09:05:27 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 15, 2011, 05:38:38 PM
"Ravel wrote the most important piano works of the 20th Century!" What? Unless you're using "important" as a synonym for "influential," I have no idea what that means.
I'll be happy to translate: "Ravel wrote the most important piano works of the 20th Century!" = "I like Ravel more than I like other 20th C. composers for piano."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 16, 2011, 12:03:38 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 15, 2011, 05:38:38 PM
For another thought, a think there's a basic rule in music that is often derided or undervalued by classical music people: if it sounds
good, it is good. I know it's fun to try and think of different ways to praise music, but we can get too caught up in who's a genius and so and so is the most important composer of whenever. "Ravel wrote the most important piano works of the 20th Century!" What? Unless you're using "important" as a synonym for "influential," I have no idea what that means.

I agree.  Even really good composers wrote weak works sometimes, they are human beings not gods.  It shouldn't have to be about being a fan of someone of not, just about liking music you think is good or not.  I've never found big generalisations too helpful.  And as I always say 'influential' is never that important to me, it is no measure of worth except to someone who is more interested in the history than the music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: canninator on November 16, 2011, 12:19:23 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 15, 2011, 05:38:38 PM
I don't think it's a measure of their worth, but with many composers their solo works are the best indicators of their style. I'd say the Op. 87 Preludes and Fugues sum up Shostakovitch much better than any symphony or string quartet of his does.

What an interesting take. Maybe this is what I am really connecting with in the solo works. Not my (flawed) appraisal of worth but my (subjective) connection with their style that I map onto their other works. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 01:16:16 AM
Quote from: knight66 on November 13, 2011, 01:40:09 PM
I can't think that any composer has solved any philosophical problems with a symphony.

Doesn't it depend on what you consider to be a philosophical problem though, Mike?

The overwhelmingly most important reason why I immerse myself in the arts again and again is because deep engagement with works of art resolves (at least temporarily) the anxiety of nagging existential questions of the kind: 'why am I here?' 'what's the meaning of life?' etc. (I don't say that only art can do this, please note, but merely that art has the potential to do it.)

If I'm looking attentively at a painting, or listening to a symphony, to the extent that my perceptions are fully occupied and extended by that activity, philosophical questions of meaning become insignificant. The present moment becomes so enriched by what I might crudely call 'directly experienced meaning' that philosophical analysis of the experience becomes redundant. Indeed, philosophical analysis would be counterproductive - if one were foolish enough to switch from one mode to another in midstream it would be seen as a mere distraction from the real business.

I suppose what's happening is that we're moving back and forth across that boundary formed by Wittgenstein's distinction between 'what can be shown', and 'what can be said'. We can argue endlessly about the merits of this symphony compared to that one, or this composer compared to another, dealing purely with aspects of 'what can be said'. But no symphony was written with the purpose of stimulating such a discussion. It was written to show us something. And only when we're engaged with it, when we're listening to it, when we're contemplating with full attention what's being shown, is the existential issue of 'meaning' finally and properly resolved. Any philosophical outlook that doesn't acknowledge this is unsatisfactory, in my view; so in that sense I think composers are indeed solving philosophical problems when they write symphonies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 16, 2011, 02:20:33 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 01:16:16 AM
The overwhelmingly most important reason why I immerse myself in the arts again and again is because deep engagement with works of art resolves (at least temporarily) the anxiety of nagging existential questions of the kind: 'why am I here?' 'what's the meaning of life?' etc. (I don't say that only art can do this, please note, but merely that art has the potential to do it.)

If I'm looking attentively at a painting, or listening to a symphony, to the extent that my perceptions are fully occupied and extended by that activity, philosophical questions of meaning become insignificant. The present moment becomes so enriched by what I might crudely call 'directly experienced meaning' that philosophical analysis of the experience becomes redundant. Indeed, philosophical analysis would be counterproductive - if one were foolish enough to switch from one mode to another in midstream it would be seen as a mere distraction from the real business.

I suppose what's happening is that we're moving back and forth across that boundary formed by Wittgenstein's distinction between 'what can be shown', and 'what can be said'. We can argue endlessly about the merits of this symphony compared to that one, or this composer compared to another, dealing purely with aspects of 'what can be said'. But no symphony was written with the purpose of stimulating such a discussion. It was written to show us something. And only when we're engaged with it, when we're listening to it, when we're contemplating with full attention what's being shown, is the existential issue of 'meaning' finally and properly resolved. Any philosophical outlook that doesn't acknowledge this is unsatisfactory, in my view; so in that sense I think composers are indeed solving philosophical problems when they write symphonies.

I HEART this!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on November 16, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 11, 2011, 04:45:34 PM
QFT

Schumann wrote a couple of good pieces but he's probably the most overrated composer in all of music history.
Schubert wrote a few more good ones, but he's nearly as overrated as Schumann.

Statistically, composers whose name start with "sch" tend to be most over-rated.

PS: The only major exception being Schnabel!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on November 16, 2011, 02:59:04 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 16, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
PS: The only major exception being Schnabel!

And what about Schschschedrin?  :-X
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ten thumbs on November 16, 2011, 03:15:57 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 16, 2011, 02:59:04 AM
And what about Schschschedrin?  :-X

Yes, and there's also Shcherbachyov, if you'll excuse the extra h, a very interesting Russian impressionist. The trouble here is not over-rating but never hearing and therefore not rating at all.

For the sake of argument, I'll say that Schubert is still the most under-rated composer of all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2011, 05:03:25 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 15, 2011, 12:10:08 PM
Not to dispute the genius of Mozart, but you pick a loaded example.

G'day, O Gurn!

To go back to the beginning:


Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 10:23:30 AM
Statement....
Surely Haydn was more of a genius that Mozart?

My subsequent posts were of a nature designed to encourage a sane reconsideration of this curious statement.

Where subtlety failed, the time came for the loaded example.

I don't know if reconsideration has occurred, but we certainly have oblique contradiction:


Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 12:28:12 PM
. . . And remember, I never argued or wished to argue that Mozart was not a genius! The Requiem is a perfect work to show that!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2011, 06:04:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 01:16:16 AM
Doesn't it depend on what you consider to be a philosophical problem though, Mike?

The overwhelmingly most important reason why I immerse myself in the arts again and again is because deep engagement with works of art resolves (at least temporarily) the anxiety of nagging existential questions of the kind: 'why am I here?' 'what's the meaning of life?' etc. (I don't say that only art can do this, please note, but merely that art has the potential to do it.)

If I'm looking attentively at a painting, or listening to a symphony, to the extent that my perceptions are fully occupied and extended by that activity, philosophical questions of meaning become insignificant. The present moment becomes so enriched by what I might crudely call 'directly experienced meaning' that philosophical analysis of the experience becomes redundant. Indeed, philosophical analysis would be counterproductive - if one were foolish enough to switch from one mode to another in midstream it would be seen as a mere distraction from the real business.

I suppose what's happening is that we're moving back and forth across that boundary formed by Wittgenstein's distinction between 'what can be shown', and 'what can be said'. We can argue endlessly about the merits of this symphony compared to that one, or this composer compared to another, dealing purely with aspects of 'what can be said'. But no symphony was written with the purpose of stimulating such a discussion. It was written to show us something. And only when we're engaged with it, when we're listening to it, when we're contemplating with full attention what's being shown, is the existential issue of 'meaning' finally and properly resolved. Any philosophical outlook that doesn't acknowledge this is unsatisfactory, in my view; so in that sense I think composers are indeed solving philosophical problems when they write symphonies.

I am not the first to observe so, but another fine, upstanding, and mentally toothsome post, Alan.

(Pardon me a moment whilst I toggle . . . .)


I wonder if in music, we compound the usefulness of Wittgenstein's distinction (what can be shown vs. what can be said) with something on the lines of how what I see relates to what is shown. I do not hereby mean to be obfuscatory, though I love the occasion to use the o. word. So – to the examples!

The cuckoo imitation in the Symphonie pastorale is perhaps typical of comparatively clear demonstration in music . . . we are probably not at any great risk of "seeing" something at wild variance from what Beethoven is "showing."

Two counter-examples, at several angles:

The oboe in Peter and the Wolf serves very neatly as the character of the Duck; yet (I think) the music alone does not show that – we rely on the spoken narration in order to perceive the oboe as a quacker, and then the subsequent narrative parallels to the changes in musical mood of the oboe line (the ways in which they underpin the developing story, such as the Duck's agitation at one point, &c.) become something clear to the listener.

Consider the opening of the Beethoven fifth (if you can manage it without a corkscrew . . . sorry!)  That famous opening gesture of the three short notes and the concluding sustained note: dramatic, yes – but, what does it mean?  Could mean any of quite a great number of things, I expect.  But then – where the rubber really meets the road – the answering gesture, a sequential repetition one step lower (and the sustained note a bit longer): what does that mean?  Here's where the eye may belong to a beholder who writes a 200-page essay on what those four notes mean, and yet it is possible that all Beethoven was "showing" was . . . something intrinsically musical.  (I do not here absolutely claim that he was;  but there is certainly the musical possibility.)

(Last week I read essentially a pop music equivalent of this: rather freighted discussion spreading out to pages, and I'm thinking, "It could just have been a riff that the bass player came up with one day when they were jamming.")
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 06:06:25 AM
G'day, Karl!

I admire your unfailing good humor and firm but temperate commitment to reason and the belief that everyone is capable of it.  And I listen to Haydn's quartets far more often than Mozart's.  And to Mozart's piano concertos more than anyone else's.  And I believe that those who fail to recognize the Da Ponte operas as the paradigm-shattering achievement they are thus disqualify themselves to judge such things.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 06:04:19 AM
I am not the first to observe so, but another fine, upstanding, and mentally toothsome post, Alan.
Hear, hear!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 16, 2011, 06:08:11 AM
I have a really difficult time listening to a piece, or even wanting to listen to a piece, that was completed by someone other than the original composer (Elgar No.3, Mahler No.10...)
Maybe someone can help me diffuse this with an clearer understanding of why I should pay more attention to them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 16, 2011, 06:09:07 AM
Schshchnakalobovskyevikoff
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on November 16, 2011, 06:10:11 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 06:06:25 AM

I admire your unfailing good humor and firm but temperate commitment to reason and the belief that everyone is capable of it.

Most people aren't (though they think they are!), thus the title of the thread, NOT "Unpopular Reasons"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on November 16, 2011, 06:11:07 AM
Quote from: Greg on November 16, 2011, 06:09:07 AM
Schshchnakalobovskyevikoff

That's the most vowels I have ever seen in a Polish Russian name in a long long time!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 06:13:51 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 16, 2011, 06:10:11 AM
Most people aren't (though they think they are!), thus the title of the thread, NOT "Unpopular Reasons"
;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 16, 2011, 06:27:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 06:04:19 AM
I am not the first to observe so, but another fine, upstanding, and mentally toothsome post, Alan.

(Pardon me a moment whilst I toggle . . . .)


I wonder if in music, we compound the usefulness of Wittgenstein's distinction (what can be shown vs. what can be said) with something on the lines of how what I see relates to what is shown. I do not hereby mean to be obfuscatory, though I love the occasion to use the o. word. So – to the examples!

The cuckoo imitation in the Symphonie pastorale is perhaps typical of comparatively clear demonstration in music . . . we are probably not at any great risk of "seeing" something at wild variance from what Beethoven is "showing."

Two counter-examples, at several angles:

The oboe in Peter and the Wolf serves very neatly as the character of the Duck; yet (I think) the music alone does not show that – we rely on the spoken narration in order to perceive the oboe as a quacker, and then the subsequent narrative parallels to the changes in musical mood of the oboe line (the ways in which they underpin the developing story, such as the Duck's agitation at one point, &c.) become something clear to the listener.

Consider the opening of the Beethoven fifth (if you can manage it without a corkscrew . . . sorry!)  That famous opening gesture of the three short notes and the concluding sustained note: dramatic, yes – but, what does it mean?  Could mean any of quite a great number of things, I expect.  But then – where the rubber really meets the road – the answering gesture, a sequential repetition one step lower (and the sustained note a bit longer): what does that mean?  Here's where the eye may belong to a beholder who writes a 200-page essay on what those four notes mean, and yet it is possible that all Beethoven was "showing" was . . . something intrinsically musical.  (I do not here absolutely claim that he was;  but there is certainly the musical possibility.)

(Last week I read essentially a pop music equivalent of this: rather freighted discussion spreading out to pages, and I'm thinking, "It could just have been a riff that the bass player came up with one day when they were jamming.")


May I suggest that programmatic demonstration (sound-painting), whether direct or supported by context, is a pretty unproblematic analogue of linguistic reference? a kind of saying, in other words. I think the showing aspect of an artwork lies in its very objective existence, its thereness, as referent for itself. Looked at this way, a musical piece is, so to speak, a performative utterence, a something the meaning of which is exhausted by whatever it actually does. And I have found no better response to perplexity, confusion and grief than the contemplation and enjoyment of such "performances".

If this is obscure, I apologize. Don't know how else to put it!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on November 16, 2011, 06:43:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 06:04:19 AM
I am not the first to observe so, but another fine, upstanding, and mentally toothsome post, Alan.

(Pardon me a moment whilst I toggle . . . .)


I wonder if in music, we compound the usefulness of Wittgenstein's distinction (what can be shown vs. what can be said) with something on the lines of how what I see relates to what is shown. I do not hereby mean to be obfuscatory, though I love the occasion to use the o. word. So – to the examples!

The cuckoo imitation in the Symphonie pastorale is perhaps typical of comparatively clear demonstration in music . . . we are probably not at any great risk of "seeing" something at wild variance from what Beethoven is "showing."

Two counter-examples, at several angles:

The oboe in Peter and the Wolf serves very neatly as the character of the Duck; yet (I think) the music alone does not show that – we rely on the spoken narration in order to perceive the oboe as a quacker, and then the subsequent narrative parallels to the changes in musical mood of the oboe line (the ways in which they underpin the developing story, such as the Duck's agitation at one point, &c.) become something clear to the listener.

Consider the opening of the Beethoven fifth (if you can manage it without a corkscrew . . . sorry!)  That famous opening gesture of the three short notes and the concluding sustained note: dramatic, yes – but, what does it mean?  Could mean any of quite a great number of things, I expect.  But then – where the rubber really meets the road – the answering gesture, a sequential repetition one step lower (and the sustained note a bit longer): what does that mean?  Here's where the eye may belong to a beholder who writes a 200-page essay on what those four notes mean, and yet it is possible that all Beethoven was "showing" was . . . something intrinsically musical.  (I do not here absolutely claim that he was;  but there is certainly the musical possibility.)

(Last week I read essentially a pop music equivalent of this: rather freighted discussion spreading out to pages, and I'm thinking, "It could just have been a riff that the bass player came up with one day when they were jamming.")



In support of the Prokofiev example,  there's what Peter Schikele did with that piece, providing a completely different text using human characters from the American Old West, so there's nothing intrinscially "ducky" about that oboe.

Someone here on GMG has or had a pertinent sig line.  I don't remember who, so I can't be precise; I think it was a quote from Berlioz along the lines of, Music is meant to express what words can not.

But music is expressly and instrinsically extra-verbal.  Except for those works which include a sung text or an explicit program from the composer (and not all of those either),  whatever the composer wants to communicate is by its nature not reduceable to words.   There may be other levels at which the composer wants the piece to work, but at least at one level we're meant to experience that music as music, without further implications.  Beethoven may have meant to tell us something with that opening phrase of the Fifth Symphony, but he also wanted us to notice what he was doing with that phrase as a purely musical idea.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 07:25:19 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 16, 2011, 06:27:07 AM
May I suggest that programmatic demonstration (sound-painting), whether direct or supported by context, is a pretty unproblematic analogue of linguistic reference? a kind of saying, in other words. I think the showing aspect of an artwork lies in its very objective existence, its thereness, as referent for itself. Looked at this way, a musical piece is, so to speak, a performative utterence, a something the meaning of which is exhausted by whatever it actually does. And I have found no better response to perplexity, confusion and grief than the contemplation and enjoyment of such "performances".

If this is obscure, I apologize. Don't know how else to put it!
And yet I see music as a closer analogue of painting than of text.  Both offer direct sensory experience, whereas text is entirely abstract.

As much as I love art (literature, music, painting, etc.), I find authentic contact with other human beings to be a better antidote for and response to "perplexity, confusion, and grief." Yes, the experience of art can lift me out of myself--but so can canyon-carving on a sport bike, hooking a wily trout on a perfectly drifted dry fly, or giggling with a two-year-old child.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 07:42:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 06:04:19 AM
Consider the opening of the Beethoven fifth (if you can manage it without a corkscrew . . . sorry!)  That famous opening gesture of the three short notes and the concluding sustained note: dramatic, yes – but, what does it mean?  Could mean any of quite a great number of things, I expect.  But then – where the rubber really meets the road – the answering gesture, a sequential repetition one step lower (and the sustained note a bit longer): what does that mean?  Here's where the eye may belong to a beholder who writes a 200-page essay on what those four notes mean, and yet it is possible that all Beethoven was "showing" was . . . something intrinsically musical.  (I do not here absolutely claim that he was;  but there is certainly the musical possibility.)

(Last week I read essentially a pop music equivalent of this: rather freighted discussion spreading out to pages, and I'm thinking, "It could just have been a riff that the bass player came up with one day when they were jamming.")


Like chasmaniac, I'm doubtful of getting involved with those mimetic musical effects you mentioned - I think they cloud the issue - even though we get the bonus of revelling in the multiple use of the o-word. So I'd like to comment just on this excellent closing paragraph of yours, Karl, where I think we get to the real meat of the matter. Because I say, yes: what Beethoven was 'showing' was something intrinsically musical. The perceived 'meaning' of the dah dah dah daah (and all that follows) can't be adequately expressed or explained within the 200 page essay because it isn't something that can be said - and to suppose that it's desirable or even possible to 'say' it is to make a category error. (To complain that the meaning of a work of art can't be explained is like complaining that one can't catch a rabbit with a voltmeter.)

I suppose there are those who will say of Wittgenstein's distinction that 'meaning' lies only within the things that can be said (just as the logical positivist would accept 'whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent' only with the proviso that there's nothing to be silent about). I think we have to leave them with their impoverished definition of 'meaning', to discuss among themselves the things that can be said, while we get on with the extended perception of meaning through showing. And when we're 'shown' Beethoven's four notes, you nod and think 'yes, I see that'; and so do I; and so does chasmaniac; and so do countless millions of others; and therein lies the meaning - because the thing that's communicated contains its own meaning. And we only get it by attending completely to the thing shown - not to the things we might try to say about it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 07:45:16 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 16, 2011, 06:27:07 AM
I think the showing aspect of an artwork lies in its very objective existence, its thereness, as referent for itself. Looked at this way, a musical piece is, so to speak, a performative utterence, a something the meaning of which is exhausted by whatever it actually does. And I have found no better response to perplexity, confusion and grief than the contemplation and enjoyment of such "performances".

That's close to perfect. You took a mere few lines to say (better) what I've been blathering on about for paragraphs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2011, 07:49:51 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 07:42:37 AM
. . . And when we're 'shown' Beethoven's four notes, you nod and think 'yes, I see that'; and so do I; and so does chasmaniac; and so do countless millions of others; and therein lies the meaning - because the thing that's communicated contains its own meaning. And we only get it by attending completely to the thing shown - not to the things we might try to say about it.

(* nods *)

— (* not nods off, just . . . nods  *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 16, 2011, 07:59:18 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 07:45:16 AM
You took a mere few lines to say (better) what I've been blathering on about for paragraphs.

Thanks. But of course, people will understand you!  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 16, 2011, 08:03:56 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 01:16:16 AM
Doesn't it depend on what you consider to be a philosophical problem though, Mike?

The overwhelmingly most important reason why I immerse myself in the arts again and again is because deep engagement with works of art resolves (at least temporarily) the anxiety of nagging existential questions of the kind: 'why am I here?' 'what's the meaning of life?' etc. (I don't say that only art can do this, please note, but merely that art has the potential to do it.)

If I'm looking attentively at a painting, or listening to a symphony, to the extent that my perceptions are fully occupied and extended by that activity, philosophical questions of meaning become insignificant. The present moment becomes so enriched by what I might crudely call 'directly experienced meaning' that philosophical analysis of the experience becomes redundant. Indeed, philosophical analysis would be counterproductive - if one were foolish enough to switch from one mode to another in midstream it would be seen as a mere distraction from the real business.

I suppose what's happening is that we're moving back and forth across that boundary formed by Wittgenstein's distinction between 'what can be shown', and 'what can be said'. We can argue endlessly about the merits of this symphony compared to that one, or this composer compared to another, dealing purely with aspects of 'what can be said'. But no symphony was written with the purpose of stimulating such a discussion. It was written to show us something. And only when we're engaged with it, when we're listening to it, when we're contemplating with full attention what's being shown, is the existential issue of 'meaning' finally and properly resolved. Any philosophical outlook that doesn't acknowledge this is unsatisfactory, in my view; so in that sense I think composers are indeed solving philosophical problems when they write symphonies.

It is an engagement.  Maybe initially people can see it as an engagement with another individual (the composer) but ultimately I think it is more than that.  It's partly an interaction with the art of music itself but also with the expression contained within it.  It takes us out of ourselves but at the same time further within ourselves.  As said earlier it is a kind of sustenance, but not like food which is purely a physical need in most cases and means no more than that.  We could still live without music (unlike food) but it has arisen naturally as a means to express what we find hard to express otherwise.  In that sense it is probably no different to other arts, but its more abstract nature makes it more universal.  The act of expression and identifying with that expression can potentially give a kind of fulfillment which we may find hard to achieve just on our own.  And maybe underlying all this can be the feeling that we aren't alone, something else expresses what we feel.  And for the composer, apart from the wish to just express themselves, perhaps there is a desire to enter the same exploration as other composers and to find an audience who feel an affinity with the same type of music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 08:05:52 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 07:25:19 AM
As much as I love art (literature, music, painting, etc.), I find authentic contact with other human beings to be a better antidote for and response to "perplexity, confusion, and grief." Yes, the experience of art can lift me out of myself--but so can canyon-carving on a sport bike, hooking a wily trout on a perfectly drifted dry fly, or giggling with a two-year-old child.

I don't think any of us would want to claim some sort of exclusivity for art for 'lifting us out of ourselves' though, Dave. I'm a little worried that we might drift over into the territory of 'art as therapy' which is another matter. I'm not really concerned here with art as something that makes us feel better (though it's nice when it does), but as something that extends our perceptions in ways that are self-evidently meaningful, by contemplation of the art-object itself.

It's true that treacle pudding can only be tasted and not said; and when I put it into myself it takes me out of myself (in a distracting way). But it doesn't do what art does.*


* Or does it? Suddenly, contemplating memories of Great Treacle Puddings I Have Known, I have doubts!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2011, 08:18:31 AM
Great Treacle Puddings Alan Has Known!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 08:32:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 08:18:31 AM
Great Treacle Puddings Alan Has Known!

I know now what I have to do. I must construct the Greatest Treacle Pudding there has ever been. A Treacle Pudding so Great that just one taste of it will solve the profoundest questions about Custard, the Syrupverse, and Everything.

I am going now, but I shall return in a million years time with The Great Pudding and a large number of Spoons.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2011, 08:42:30 AM
Ever so many spoons!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 16, 2011, 01:23:05 PM
The best music of the past 20 years was written for video games.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on November 16, 2011, 01:37:05 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 01:16:16 AM
Doesn't it depend on what you consider to be a philosophical problem though, Mike?

The overwhelmingly most important reason why I immerse myself in the arts again and again is because deep engagement with works of art resolves (at least temporarily) the anxiety of nagging existential questions of the kind: 'why am I here?' 'what's the meaning of life?' etc. (I don't say that only art can do this, please note, but merely that art has the potential to do it.)

If I'm looking attentively at a painting, or listening to a symphony, to the extent that my perceptions are fully occupied and extended by that activity, philosophical questions of meaning become insignificant. The present moment becomes so enriched by what I might crudely call 'directly experienced meaning' that philosophical analysis of the experience becomes redundant. Indeed, philosophical analysis would be counterproductive - if one were foolish enough to switch from one mode to another in midstream it would be seen as a mere distraction from the real business.

I suppose what's happening is that we're moving back and forth across that boundary formed by Wittgenstein's distinction between 'what can be shown', and 'what can be said'. We can argue endlessly about the merits of this symphony compared to that one, or this composer compared to another, dealing purely with aspects of 'what can be said'. But no symphony was written with the purpose of stimulating such a discussion. It was written to show us something. And only when we're engaged with it, when we're listening to it, when we're contemplating with full attention what's being shown, is the existential issue of 'meaning' finally and properly resolved. Any philosophical outlook that doesn't acknowledge this is unsatisfactory, in my view; so in that sense I think composers are indeed solving philosophical problems when they write symphonies.

As always Alan, an original and an elegant take on a subject. I was, as you propably knew really, making reference to the formal argument that classical philosophy requires. I like your points and of course, a solution for one is an irrelevance to another in the context of what music can cut through and provide enlightenment or balm.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 16, 2011, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 16, 2011, 01:23:05 PM
The best music of the past 20 years was written for video games.

What?!!!!!  :o You seem to be dismissing some very great music....

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 16, 2011, 01:50:35 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 16, 2011, 01:45:49 PM
What?!!!!!  :o You seem to be dismissing some very great music....

That statement is not about the inferiority of other music, it's about the relatively unknown greatness of that composed for games.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 16, 2011, 01:53:59 PM
Quote from: knight66 on November 16, 2011, 01:37:05 PM
I was, as you propably knew really, making reference to the formal argument that classical philosophy requires.

Exactly so, Mike. And as you'll have realised by now (for my subterfuge was thinly disguised), I was really only  using your post as a springboard to launch my new philosophy based upon the Great Treacle Pudding Construction Project.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 16, 2011, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 16, 2011, 01:50:35 PM
That statement is not about the inferiority of other music, it's about the relatively unknown greatness of that composed for games.

I see....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2011, 01:57:40 PM
Great Treacle Pudding Video Games!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 16, 2011, 02:56:35 PM
Quote from: The Six on November 16, 2011, 01:50:35 PM
That statement is not about the inferiority of other music, it's about the relatively unknown greatness of that composed for games.

It may be underrated, but that's still a completely different statement to the first one you made.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 02:59:16 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 01:57:40 PM
Great Treacle Pudding Video Games!
Great Treacle Pudding vs. the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on November 16, 2011, 03:41:51 PM
  Listening to the cloyingly sentimental and monotonously languorous music of Delius is like being forced to consume a giant bowl of treacle !
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 12:21:14 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 16, 2011, 02:59:16 PM
Great Treacle Pudding vs. the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

A nail-biter. Too close to call, one might think. But remember that revenge, like treacle, is sweet.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Luke on November 17, 2011, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 12:21:14 AM
A nail-biter. Too close to call, one might think. But remember that revenge, like treacle, is sweet.

But is treacle, like revenge, best served cold? A conundrum for the ages...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2011, 11:39:49 AM
My opnion that treacle should be served cold might just prove unpopular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 11:44:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2011, 11:39:49 AM
My opnion that treacle should be served cold might just prove unpopular.

How neatly the thread is brought back on target. Nicely done Karl and Luke. (Karl kicked the ball through the net, but Luke set it up.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
Couldn't have done it without Luke's assist.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 12:00:36 PM
Guys, we did good today.
Come. Let us all share in the Smugness.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 17, 2011, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 12:00:36 PM
Guys, we did good today.
Come. Let us all share in the Smugness.

I'm getting a tan from its reflection!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2011, 12:08:58 PM
Lead us to The Shed!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 17, 2011, 06:00:03 PM
While basking in the warm glow of well-deserved smugness, our merry band of GMGers suddenly found their opinions inexplicably popular!

(http://www.burnbright.com.au/wp-content/uploads/soup-nazi_320-250x187.jpg)
"No treacle pudding for you!"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 17, 2011, 06:03:16 PM
QuoteIt may be underrated, but that's still a completely different statement to the first one you made.

Well I made two statements, then.

It's a good idea to break up movements in concerts. Mix and match them, and the performers and audience will get a chance to hear them differently. Of course it wouldn't work for everything, but why not make a "found" symphony made up of movements from multiple ones?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 17, 2011, 06:56:54 PM
Quote from: toucan on November 17, 2011, 06:49:10 PM
If this is not an unpopular opinion then it certainly ought to be.
"why not make..."?  Because good conductors remain true to a composer's intention, as expressed by means of notes.
The differing ways each conductors understand these intentions is all the chance we require and need,

We don't even require or need that. None of this is a necessity. It's just a different way of looking at music. I would not agree that remaining true to the composer's intentional, whatever that is, is a requirement for a conductor to be good. Once the music's written, it belongs to no one and everyone (copyright notwithstanding).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 17, 2011, 08:06:21 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on November 18, 2011, 03:03:30 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 17, 2011, 06:03:16 PM
It's a good idea to break up movements in concerts. Mix and match them, and the performers and audience will get a chance to hear them differently. Of course it wouldn't work for everything, but why not make a "found" symphony made up of movements from multiple ones?

Van Nevel worked 5 of Agricola's mass movements into the Missa Guazzabuglio here:

[asin]B00000IMZT[/asin]

Don't know how a paying audience would take it, but folks have been mixing and matching for their own purposes for as long as there has been a home recording medium in which to do it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on November 18, 2011, 07:14:47 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 17, 2011, 06:56:54 PMOnce the music's written, it belongs to no one and everyone

Music can be reworked though it should not then be solely credited to the original composer as it would not reflect exactly what they intended.  It would be more like a new composition.  And reworking of any type of music if done successfully is done in a creative way and not just randomly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on November 18, 2011, 07:22:54 PM
Led Zeppelin peaked with their second album.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2011, 03:19:41 AM
: )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2011, 03:21:39 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 18, 2011, 07:22:54 PM
Led Zeppelin peaked with their second album.

That's always been my position  8)


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 19, 2011, 06:32:19 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 18, 2011, 07:22:54 PM
Led Zeppelin peaked with their second album.

I would say they peaked with their first-- but I'm not a big Zep-head.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2011, 08:25:47 AM
I guess not everyone thinks highly of "Kashmir," but that's a track grabbed me tight at the collar when first I heard it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on November 19, 2011, 08:57:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2011, 08:25:47 AM
I guess not everyone thinks highly of "Kashmir," but that's a track grabbed me tight at the collar when first I heard it.

Kashmir is a GREAT tune-- one of their very best.  I've probably got less than 10 Zep songs on my MP3 Player, but that is DEFINITELY on it.


  But the album as a whole didn't have much an affect on me, and I must admit that the epic length "in My Time of Dying" did nothing for me-- I'm a huge blues fan, but other then some decent (but not overwhelming ) slide licks, there wasnt much.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on December 02, 2011, 08:46:08 AM
As much as I like him for other things, I feel that Bartok can never be forgiven for his mocking of Shostakovich in his Concerto for Orchestra. Criticize the piece is one thing, but I don't understand the mentality where one feels the need to shoehorn a bad parody into an otherwise serious piece.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:31:45 AM
I can see tut-tutting, but to consider it unforgivable . . . I dunno.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 02, 2011, 09:33:49 AM
Quote from: The Six on December 02, 2011, 08:46:08 AM
As much as I like him for other things, I feel that Bartok can never be forgiven for his mocking of Shostakovich in his Concerto for Orchestra. Criticize the piece is one thing, but I don't understand the mentality where one feels the need to shoehorn a bad parody into an otherwise serious piece.

Could you please point out when in the piece this happens? I hadn't heard of this before.

Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:31:45 AM
I can see tut-tutting, but to consider it unforgivable . . . I dunno.

Psst... it's unpopular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:37:56 AM
Oy, Nav: you're on it!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:38:55 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 02, 2011, 09:33:49 AM
Could you please point out when in the piece this happens? I hadn't heard of this before.

Psst... in the Intermezzo interrotto. : )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 02, 2011, 09:45:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:38:55 AM
Psst... in the Intermezzo interrotto. : )

[whisper]Thanks muchly![/whisper] I haven't heard Shostakovich's 7th yet, at least not completely... I found the march too boring when I came across the work a long time ago. Will give those to a 'comparative' listening soon.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on December 02, 2011, 01:02:08 PM
UNFORGIVABLE!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 02, 2011, 07:25:08 PM
Here's some more unpopular opinions: Rossini was a hack, Messiaen was on crack, Brahms and Clara Schumann spent some time in the sack...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on December 04, 2011, 05:18:18 AM
Fresh one after yesterday's Met broadcast of Rodelinda: Renée Fleming is a queen of the obnoxious.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Geo Dude on December 04, 2011, 05:48:39 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 04, 2011, 05:18:18 AM
Fresh one after yesterday's Met broadcast of Rodelinda: Renée Fleming is a queen of the obnoxious.

I don't find her obnoxious myself, but I do find her voice a bit plain, for lack of a better term.  She doesn't hold my interest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:19:42 AM
Nice thread, folks. :)

Here's mine: if you want to ruin a teenager prospective to become a Classical music lover, give him Mahler. Chances are very high that he'll become a Late Romanticism nut and forever scorn any music scored for less than 200 instruments; thus he'll narrowly limit himself to only 40-50 (and certainly not the best) years of the whole history of music making .  ;D





Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 06:29:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:19:42 AM
Nice thread, folks. :)

Here's mine: if you want to ruin a teenager prospective to become a Classical music lover, give him Mahler. Chances are very high that he'll become a Late Romanticism nut and forever scorn any music scored for less than 200 instruments; thus he'll narrowly limit himself to only 40-50 (and certainly not the best) years of the whole history of music making .  ;D

Dude, I just don't do piano solo music, anything important that a composer has to say, he's probably said in his works for orchestra ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 05, 2011, 06:34:55 AM
Dvorak's 9th is a step-down
The Missa Solemnis could do with some cuts
Sibelius is nearly as overrated as Mahler
Schumann's PC isn't all that interesting
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:40:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 06:29:11 AM
Dude, I just don't do piano solo music, anything important that a composer has to say, he's probably said in his works for orchestra ; )

Take for instance JS Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Chopin, Brahms: their chamber output is just as good (I'd say even better in some cases) than their orchestral one. Not to mention that orchestra is a very relative term: what for Haydn was a grand one, for Mahler would have been the equivalent of a piano reduction.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:45:42 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 05, 2011, 06:34:55 AM
Dvorak's 9th is a step-down

Kind of John Philip Souza with an Austro-Hungarian flavor...  ;D

Quote
The Missa Solemnis could do with some cuts

Must give it a long due new listen.

Quote
Sibelius is nearly as overrated as Mahler

I can stomach Mahler much better than Bruckner; however Sibelius is far superior to both in being much more concise.  ;D

Quote
Schumann's PC isn't all that interesting

I just love it, unabashedly (non-Late) Romantic as I am - but it overshadows his equally splendid Violin and Cello Concertos.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 05, 2011, 06:46:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:19:42 AM

Here's mine: if you want to ruin a teenager prospective to become a Classical music lover, give him Mahler. Chances are very high that he'll become a Late Romanticism nut and forever scorn any music scored for less than 200 instruments; thus he'll narrowly limit himself to only 40-50 (and certainly not the best) years of the whole history of music making .  ;D

That was me, when I first started listening. Somehow I managed to move on from there. So at least in my case, you're wrong!  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:48:30 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:46:18 AM
That was me, when I first started listening. Somehow I managed to move on from there. So at least in my case, you're wrong!  :P

I should have written "contemporary teenager" and I would not have been wrong anymore. What say you?:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 05, 2011, 06:49:14 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 05, 2011, 06:34:55 AM
Dvorak's 9th is a step-down
The Missa Solemnis could do with some cuts
Sibelius is nearly as overrated as Mahler
Schumann's PC isn't all that interesting

I agree with all of these except observation #3. Sibelius and Mahler remain among my favorite orchestral composers.

My turn:

Beethoven's best quartets are the Razumovskys (Op. 59).
Beethoven's best late quartet is Op. 135.
Masses would be a lot easier to listen to if they removed the long, doctrinally specific Credo movement.
Prokofiev is just not all that good as a symphonist.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 05, 2011, 06:51:14 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:49:14 AM
Prokofiev is just not all that good as a symphonist.

What's with the redundancy at the end?


;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 06:52:30 AM
But this is an entertaining thread! : )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:53:08 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:49:14 AM
Masses would be a lot easier to listen to if they removed the long, doctrinally specific Credo movement.

In which case they wouldn't be Masses anymore. :D

Quote
Prokofiev is just not all that good as a symphonist.

Except when he tries to be the Haydn of the 20th century.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 05, 2011, 06:53:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:48:30 AM
I should have written "contemporary teenager" and I would not have been wrong anymore. What say you?:)

Maybe. But I was a "contemporary teenager" in the 1980s, and if I grew out of it, anyone can  :)

One more observation:

Schubert's symphonies are mostly forgettable.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 05, 2011, 06:54:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:53:08 AM
Except when he tries to be the Haydn of the 20th century.

Too bad he only did that once.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 05, 2011, 06:54:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:19:42 AM
Nice thread, folks. :)

Here's mine: if you want to ruin a teenager prospective to become a Classical music lover, give him Mahler. Chances are very high that he'll become a Late Romanticism nut and forever scorn any music scored for less than 200 instruments; thus he'll narrowly limit himself to only 40-50 (and certainly not the best) years of the whole history of music making .  ;D


My experience with this statement is that when I was in high school I played the French horn and my brother played trombone, and we were very attached to pieces that were brass heavy, and Mahler was one of my first introductions to this. But as the years passed I began to appreciate Mahler's music less, I found myself waiting for certain moments in his pieces rather than enjoying them in their entirety. I wouldn't say that Mahler is overrated, but I would much rather listen to any Haydn symphony over a Mahler symphony nowadays.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 05, 2011, 06:56:00 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:49:14 AM

Prokofiev is just not all that good as a symphonist.


;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:56:59 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:53:41 AM
Maybe. But I was a "contemporary teenager" in the 1980s, and if I grew out of it, anyone can  :)

Absolutely. After all, if truth is generally unpopular, it doesn't follow that every unpopular opinion is true. :)

Quote
Schubert's symphonies are mostly forgettable.

Yes, but the unforgettable ones (2,5,6,8,9) make for all the rest.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:57:47 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:54:11 AM
Too bad he only did that once.

Or too bad he didn't stop at that one.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 05, 2011, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:53:41 AM
Schubert's symphonies are mostly forgettable.

I tried very hard to have an opinion on this, but it came out even :(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:59:44 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 05, 2011, 06:54:41 AM
I wouldn't say that Mahler is overrated, but I would much rather listen to any Haydn symphony over a Mahler symphony nowadays.

That's perhaps because there are French horns in Haydn. How about your trombone brother?  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 05, 2011, 07:01:33 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:59:44 AM
That's perhaps because there are French horns in Haydn. How about your trombone brother?  :D


He still loves Mahler, but his taste in who performs it how it's performed has changed.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 06:57:47 AM
Or too bad he didn't stop at that one.  ;D

Eeek!

Thread Duty: The Second is the best of the Prokofev symphonies

There's not a single note too many in Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony

Mozart's clarinet concerto is better as arranged for the regular A clarinet.

Apart from the Violin Concerto, I cannot bear a note of Glazunov.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 07:04:27 AM
And: practically throughout his compositional output, Berlioz is a genius.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 05, 2011, 07:09:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 07:04:27 AM
And: practically throughout his compositional output, Berlioz is a genius.


This is very true.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 05, 2011, 07:10:23 AM
I find more musical riches in Liszt's output than Wagner and Bruckner combined.
.
..

Haters gon' hate.

Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 07:03:25 AM
Apart from the Violin Concerto, I cannot bear a note of Glazunov.

Unpopular indeed - most people totally ignore the VC too ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on December 05, 2011, 07:11:02 AM
Although this might be a biased opinion, Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata sounds better on the bass than it does on the cello.  (an unusual thing to say :D :P )

I think the 4th movement of Mahler 4 is the weakest part of the symphony, even if the rest of the symphony was derived from that movement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:14:43 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 05, 2011, 07:10:23 AM
I find more musical riches in Liszt's output than Wagner and Bruckner combined.

Fleurs melodiques des Alpes immediately comes to mind.  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:18:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 07:03:25 AM
There's not a single note too many in Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony

Whoever said it is?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 05, 2011, 07:23:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:18:49 AM
Whoever said it is?

I think GMGer Nav has never actually reached the end of the piece yet ;D I am sympathetic to the view.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:23:54 AM
If I got started...

Having heard last Friday live Brahms' First Symphony I was only confirmed in my long held opinion: apart from the Scherzo (only, without the Trio) and that melody in the finale, it is a formless and completely forgettable aborted foetus.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:28:00 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 05, 2011, 07:23:41 AM
I think GMGer Nav has never actually reached the end of the piece yet ;D I am sympathetic to the view.

Well, you two are of the same lot: he is a Bach guy and you're a Bax girl. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 05, 2011, 07:31:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:28:00 AM
Well, you two are of the same lot: he is a Bach guy and you're a Bax girl. :)

And beyond all reasonable coincidence, Bach in Russian is Бах ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:33:09 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 05, 2011, 07:31:05 AM
And beyond all reasonable coincidence, Bach in Russian is Бах ;D

Kонечно.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:39:50 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 05, 2011, 06:53:41 AM
Maybe. But I was a "contemporary teenager" in the 1980s, and if I grew out of it, anyone can  :)

Thank god I've never grown up  8)  Mahler is even more important to me today than he was when I first heard him at age 17.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:39:50 AM
Thank god I've never grown up  8)  Mahler is even more important to me today than he was when I first heard him at age 17.

Sarge

Q. E. D.   :D ;D :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2011, 07:43:29 AM
I'm starting to become incredibly disenchanted with living composers, although there are a few whose music I enjoy. I think Baroque music, in general, is better for dinner parties or restaurants than for serious listening. I think the Classical Era produced some of the most downright garbage of any period with Mozart leading the pack.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:44:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:18:49 AM
Whoever said it is?

Me! Start with the first note, add the last...and include everything in between. Throw them all out. Now there you have a great symphony! Shostakovich's own 4'33....only much longer  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:46:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2011, 07:43:29 AM
I think Baroque music, in general, is better for dinner parties or restaurants than for serious listening. I think the Classical Era produced some of the most downright garbage of any period with Mozart leading the pack.

Easily the best post in the spirit of this thread...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:50:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:44:41 AM
Me! Start with the first note, add the last...and include everything in between. Throw them all out. Now there you have a great symphony! Shostakovich's own 4'33....only much longer  ;D

I like Shostakovich but, after all, I could live perfectly happy without ever hearing a single note of his anymore. OTOH, how about your life without Mahler?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:53:23 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:50:37 AM
I like Shostakovich but, after all, I could live perfectly happy without ever hearing a single note of his anymore. OTOH, how about your life without Mahler?  ;D

Life is unthinkable without Mahler. There. I'm finally on topic  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 05, 2011, 07:53:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2011, 07:43:29 AM
I think Baroque music, in general, is better for dinner parties or restaurants than for serious listening. I think the Classical Era produced some of the most downright garbage of any period with Mozart leading the pack.

This is not the misguided ramblings thread, MI. :P

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:55:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:53:23 AM
Life is unthinkable without Mahler. There. I'm finally on topic  :D

:D :D :D

Excellent, Sarge! You rock as usual, my hat off to you!

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2011, 07:57:37 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 05, 2011, 07:53:40 AM
This is not the misguided ramblings thread, MI. :P

:P

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2011, 07:59:27 AM
Q: What's the difference between Mahler and Janet Reno?

A: Nothing, they're both psychotic, delusional windbags.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 05, 2011, 08:14:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2011, 07:43:29 AM
I think Baroque music, in general, is better for dinner parties or restaurants than for serious listening.


I would frequent that restaurant, "Table for One, Please!"  :P  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 05, 2011, 08:19:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:39:50 AM
Thank god I've never grown up  8)  Mahler is even more important to me today than he was when I first heard him at age 17.

Sarge

I wonder what I will be like then....

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:53:23 AM
Life is unthinkable without Mahler. There. I'm finally on topic  :D

Sarge

Completely true! Couldn't agree more!

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2011, 07:59:27 AM
Q: What's the difference between Mahler and Janet Reno?

A: Nothing, they're both psychotic, delusional windbags.

I'm going to go and find a picture of you now to attach to my Mahler hammer when I play it tonight.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 08:22:14 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 05, 2011, 08:19:12 AM
I wonder what I will be like then....

Do you mean 17...or 62?  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 05, 2011, 08:23:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 07:03:25 AM
Apart from the Violin Concerto, I cannot bear a note of Glazunov.

How?! Do you not know the 4th symphony?!

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 05, 2011, 06:34:55 AM
Sibelius is nearly as overrated as Mahler

:o
Mahler could NEVER be overrated.  >:(

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 08:22:14 AM
Do you mean 17...or 62?  :)

Sarge

62 ;) I will have probably formed my own international Mahler society! :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 05, 2011, 08:32:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:53:23 AM
Life is unthinkable without Mahler.

I totally agree :)

But I think a lifetime without Wagner would be worse for me........
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 08:35:29 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:46:47 AM
Easily the best post in the spirit of this thread...

(* chortlissimo *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 08:39:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:55:14 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 07:53:23 AM
Life is unthinkable without Mahler. There. I'm finally on topic  :D

Sarge

:D :D :D

Excellent, Sarge! You rock as usual, my hat off to you!

You gents are entirely apt to make me smile!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 05, 2011, 08:40:51 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:23:54 AM
Having heard last Friday live Brahms' First Symphony I was only confirmed in my long held opinion: apart from the Scherzo (only, without the Trio) and that melody in the finale, it is a formless and completely forgettable aborted foetus.  ;D

While I don't agree with this assessment, I do think that the 1st Sym. is not as great as the 3 others. There is a sense of strain, of deliberate grandeur and monumentality, that drags it down a little. Thankfully Brahms got over his Beethoven complex after this one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on December 05, 2011, 09:00:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 07:03:25 AM

Thread Duty: The Second is the best of the Prokofev symphonies


That's not an unpopular opinion with me-- I'm torn between the second and the third. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on December 05, 2011, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:23:54 AMa formless and completely forgettable aborted foetus.  ;D

(I would take that as a reasonable assessment of the said composer as well.  8) )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 10:39:31 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 05, 2011, 10:23:46 AM
(I would take that as a reasonable assessment of the said composer as well.  8) )

:o


Well, this is certainly the sort of thing this thread is for, I'll give you that!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 10:39:31 AM
Well, this is certainly the sort of thing this thread is for, I'll give you that!

I wouldn't have thought it possible, but Christo beats Mirror Image by a wide margin.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 10:49:43 AM
But this is the very merriest of Mondays!

(* chortle yet again *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mszczuj on December 07, 2011, 10:16:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 07:03:25 AM
The Second is the best of the Prokofev symphonies

This is not very strange as it is the best symphony written after Beethoven. What a pity it was the last good symphony of Prokofiev.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 07, 2011, 10:32:42 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on December 07, 2011, 10:16:44 AM
This is not very strange as it is the best symphony written after Beethoven. What a pity it was the last good symphony of Prokofiev.

You seem to be forgetting Mahler.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 07, 2011, 10:38:44 AM
No.

: )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 07, 2011, 10:45:54 AM
What a piece of nonsense that statement was....  >:(
How you could easily dismiss all the symphonic masterpieces between Beethoven and Prokofiev? Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 07, 2011, 10:58:13 AM
Dvorak's 2nd symphony is better than Prokofiev's.

*hides*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 07, 2011, 10:59:29 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 07, 2011, 10:45:54 AM
What a piece of nonsense that statement was....  >:(
How you could easily dismiss all the symphonic masterpieces between Beethoven and Prokofiev? Ridiculous.

There, you see: It's a question of perspective.  For mszczuj, this is a matter of recognizing the greatness of the Prokofiev Second.  Let me guess: You do not even know the piece, yet you wish us to take seriously your opinion that it is ridiculous to consider the Prokofiev Second the "greatest symphony after Beethoven," ahead of Mahler's nine.

In any event, dude: get the thread title.  It's an opinion, and it may not be a popular opinion.  Got it?
: )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 07, 2011, 10:59:45 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 07, 2011, 10:58:13 AM
Dvorak's 2nd symphony is better than Prokofiev's.

*hides*

Tee-hee!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 07, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 07, 2011, 10:59:29 AM
There, you see: It's a question of perspective.  For mszczuj, this is a matter of recognizing the greatness of the Prokofiev Second.  Let me guess: You do not even know the piece, yet you wish us to take seriously your opinion that it is ridiculous to consider the Prokofiev Second the "greatest symphony after Beethoven," ahead of Mahler's nine.

In any event, dude: get the thread title.  It's an opinion, and it may not be a popular opinion.  Got it?
: )

Yes, I understand fully, Karl. And yes, I do know the 2nd symphony of Prokofiev, and I find it a great piece. Just cannot believe that mszczuj would dismiss everything between Beethoven and Prokofiev 2. Surely Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler (etc) should be mentioned. But fine - that's just my opinion that obviously not everyone shares.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2011, 12:10:21 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 07, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Yes, I understand fully, Karl. And yes, I do know the 2nd symphony of Prokofiev, and I find it a great piece. Just cannot believe that mszczuj would dismiss everything between Beethoven and Prokofiev 2.

With your particular set of biases, you seem to have misunderstood the words of mszczuj.  All he said was that the Prokofiev 2nd was the best symphony after Beethoven; that was no dismissal of any other symphonies.  It's about time you hit yourself on the head with hammer. 8) 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 07, 2011, 12:17:24 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 07, 2011, 12:10:21 PM
With your particular set of biases, you seem to have misunderstood the words of mszczuj.  All he said was that the Prokofiev 2nd was the best symphony after Beethoven; that was no dismissal of any other symphonies.  It's about time you hit yourself on the head with hammer. 8)

Perhaps. Well, it still certainly is what can be classed as an 'unpopular opinion' of the highest order!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2011, 07:35:27 PM
Brahms 4th would be the greatest symphony from the Romantic era if it didn't contain the all too sunny third movement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 07, 2011, 09:58:23 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2011, 07:35:27 PM
Brahms 4th would be the greatest symphony from the Romantic era if it didn't contain the all too sunny third movement.

Hmm... I actually think it needs more triangles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 07, 2011, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 07, 2011, 09:58:23 PM
Hmm... I actually think it needs more triangles.

...or cowbell. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 07, 2011, 10:06:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2011, 10:03:13 PM
...or cowbell. :)

That's the hammerhead's fetish.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on December 08, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 07:59:52 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .

Have you worked with any of them?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2011, 08:06:40 AM
Funny how it's all the HIP musicians who have such grievous character failiings.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2011, 08:11:00 AM
Almost as if we're transferring our personal distaste for a style, to alleged personal failings of those who work in the style.

But it's purely an artistic opinion, of course; no mere empty ad hominem here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 08, 2011, 08:16:25 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .

Beethoven, Wagner, Mozart... the list goes on. I suppose you don't listen to their music as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Geo Dude on December 08, 2011, 08:31:54 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 07:59:52 AM
Have you worked with any of them?

A good question.  I'll add a second one in the same vein for Superhorn.  Have you read or watched any interviews with these musicians?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on December 08, 2011, 08:39:07 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 08, 2011, 08:16:25 AM
Beethoven, Wagner, Mozart... the list goes on. I suppose you don't listen to their music as well.

I remember saying this to a friend during a discussion about Bill Clinton:" You realize you are voting to election a CEO to USA Incorporated, NOT electing a POPE."

While people like Feldman, Cage, Carter, Giulini, Levine are people I would love to know as friends, most of the musicians and composers I love and enjoy are people whom I wouldn't be able to stand (for longer than a cup of tea) as people in real life, which is just fine.

BTW, I like you in both cases, Dr. Karl Henning!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 08, 2011, 08:40:50 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 07, 2011, 09:58:23 PM
Hmm... I actually think it needs more triangles.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2011, 10:03:13 PM
...or cowbell. :)
Quote from: Opus106 on December 07, 2011, 10:06:09 PM
That's the hammerhead's fetish.

;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 08, 2011, 08:42:45 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2011, 07:35:27 PM
Brahms 4th would be the greatest symphony from the Romantic era if it didn't contain the all too sunny third movement.

I love that third movement, a nice dose of joy between the outer movements!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Bulldog on December 08, 2011, 08:43:22 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
   Conductors such as Gardiner,Norrington, Howgwood,  Bruggen,Herreweghe, et al  may be fine and erudite musicians, but  as
people, they are the most insufferably arrogant, snooty,  condescending,patronizing ,  smug,self-satisfied ,  pedantic, dogmatic
pompous asses  imaginable .   
   Ditto other HIP musicians such as Bylsma and his ilk .

I'm surprised you haven't accused them of child abuse.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 08, 2011, 09:02:52 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2011, 08:43:22 AM
I'm surprised you haven't accused them of child abuse.

Not to mention Gardiner's family history - combine all these and we'll really have an unpopular opinion :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 08, 2011, 09:06:51 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 08, 2011, 09:02:52 AM
Not to mention Gardiner's family history

What about it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 08, 2011, 09:07:38 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 08, 2011, 09:06:51 AM
What about it?

Like Max Mosley, a Nazi in the closet.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2011, 09:38:39 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 08, 2011, 08:39:07 AM
I remember saying this to a friend during a discussion about Bill Clinton:" You realize you are voting to election a CEO to USA Incorporated, NOT electing a POPE."

While people like Feldman, Cage, Carter, Giulini, Levine are people I would love to know as friends, most of the musicians and composers I love and enjoy are people whom I wouldn't be able to stand (for longer than a cup of tea) as people in real life, which is just fine.

BTW, I like you in both cases, Dr. Karl Henning!

(* blush *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on December 08, 2011, 09:42:35 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 08, 2011, 09:07:38 AM
Like Max Mosley, a Nazi in the closet.

Oh.

And there was that other HIPster who was quite open about it: Herbert von Karajan.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 08, 2011, 10:21:47 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on December 08, 2011, 08:31:54 AM
A good question.  I'll add a second one in the same vein for Superhorn.  Have you read or watched any interviews with these musicians?

Yes, that's a very good question too. I've read interviews with basically all those mentioned in the (very sadly) now defunct Goldberg Magazine website and I don't remember them displaying any of the "qualities" Superhorn attributes them.

Karl's comment about projecting the hate of HIP on HIPsters seems to me very apt.



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on December 09, 2011, 12:37:42 PM
    I'm not attacking their  performances , but their attitudes .  I've read many  interviews they've given,  plus  the liner notes to CDs some of them have written , and heard them on the radio etc. 
    I have some of their recordings , and like some of  the countless ones by them I've heard very much, though by no means all of them .
  It's the sheer arrogance  and smugness of many of their pronunciations that irritate me so much .  They're so cock sure of how "authentic they are and  sneer so superciliously at other musicians , past and present who  aren't HIP. 
   I'm currently involved in a controversy at musoc.org , a website  which  is devoted to  trying to promote classical music and to
defend it from  philistinism, even though its  frankly  elitist viewpoint  is very counterproductive .
It stands for "music and society".  The website has its  "Hall of Shame " awards for musicians  it  condemns for what it considers crassness or stupidity of behavior .  A while ago, I sent them an e mail  recommending the English  orchestra administrator and former record producer John Boyden  ,now artistic director of the New Queen's Hall orchestra of London, the only period instrument  orchestra devoted to  the music of  Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Wagner, Brahms,  Mahler, Bruckner,Holst and other late 19th and early 20th century composers . 
   It's recorded the first HIP version of Holst's The Planets .  Boyden  ,on the orchestra's website makes all kinds of stupefyingly arrogant  and snooty comments about his orchestra's supposed vast superiority to our mainstream orchestras in this repertoire, and 
I  informed music.org of his  fatuous comments . You can see them at the orchestra's website, just  put New Queen's hall orchestra on your search engine.
    He wrote an angry response , accusing me of "bigotry" and "intolerance" toward his orchestra.  I replied that it's not his orchestra I object to, but his  claims.  His son Matthew,  who has written a biography of Richard Strauss came to his defense and made all kinds of ad  hominem attacks on me, accusing me of "stupidity", "ignorance" and "anti-intellectualism" .    His rant was too silly to offend me .
    You can see the whole  thing at musoc.org.
   I repeat - I'm not opposed to the use of period instruments , and don't condemn any one merely for using them. 
What I object to is  the stupid claims of so many HIP musicians. 
    I proposed the "Christopher Hogwash awards " for HIP fatuousness .   No offense meant to Hogwood personally .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 09, 2011, 12:50:55 PM
So you've managed to extrapolate one personal dispute onto most practictioners of a whole artform? That is pretty cool. Don't say that you wouldn't be so mad about the whole issue if that single event hadn't happened.

Quote from: Superhorn on December 09, 2011, 12:37:42 PM
They're so cock sure of how "authentic they are

What other definition is there? Academy of Ancient Music and Concentus Musicus Wien sound more like classical period orchestras than the Berlin Philharmonic - this is a fact, and it is indisputable. That they sound exactly the same, I can't imagine many HIP musicians claiming (apart from perhaps your friend John Boyden).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 01:14:45 PM
"The Simpsons" was an utter and irredeemable waste of time and (at least a little) talent.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on December 09, 2011, 02:50:03 PM
   Boyden, and his son, are carrying HIP rhetoric to absurd lengths .  They claim that  even the music of Richard Strauss, Elgar, Holst,
Vaughan Williams etc is absolutely wrong on today's instruments .  So we need HIP Richard Strauss ?  Holy cow, sheesh,
gadzooks,  and  yikes !   
   Basilcally , what gets my goat is not the use of period instruments per se,  but  the  modern instrument bashing that is so common
among HIP musicians and shills for HIP such as critic Andrew Porter .  Despite the  ubiquitousness of  period instruments today , I still
enjoy the old-fashioned politically incorrect performances  by  Karajan, Marriner,Leppard,  Klemperer,  Beecham,  and other  non HIP
conductors , as well as  other musicians, such as  Glenn Gould,  Wanda Landowska,  Itzhak Perlman, Pinchas Zukerman , et al .
    In fact, it's actually refreshing to hear those  despised   "wrong" performances   again . 
    And how  do  the Boydens know that Wagner, Brahms,  Mahler, Elgar,  etc would not have loved the way  our  great mainstream 
orchestras play their music today ? They don't, and can't .    The sheer arrogance and presumption of their claims  boggles the mind .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lethevich on December 09, 2011, 03:11:10 PM
I just don't understand how you can't see that the other side is just as bad. Zukerman has been a dick about HIP, Adam Fischer denounced it (before changing his mind a bit), critics like Hurwitz always go on biased rants against it, etc.

And on the HIP side we have people like Andrew Manze conducting modern orchestras (after previously largely focusing on HIP chamber music) saying it's now time to learn from HIP and see how it can be used to create a middle ground between period orchestras and modern, and we have Hogwood, etc, conducing early Romantic repertoire with modern orchestras. Hardly dogmatic?

Edit: fixed a major typo which contradicted a point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on December 09, 2011, 03:25:53 PM
Puppies are ugly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 09, 2011, 02:50:03 PM
   Boyden, and his son, are carrying HIP rhetoric to absurd lengths .  They claim that  even the music of Richard Strauss, Elgar, Holst,
Vaughan Williams etc is absolutely wrong on today's instruments .  So we need HIP Richard Strauss ?  Holy cow, sheesh,
gadzooks,  and  yikes !   
   Basilcally , what gets my goat is not the use of period instruments per se,  but  the  modern instrument bashing that is so common
among HIP musicians and shills for HIP such as critic Andrew Porter.

Why you are blind to the sheer arrogance and presumption of this broad brush you're flailing, I've no idea.  I work with many musicians who work both in authentic practice, and modern style.  The violist with whom I play my The Mousetrap, for just one example.

But 'tis clear your mind is made up, and you are sturdily prepared not to be confused by facts.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on December 09, 2011, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on December 09, 2011, 03:25:53 PM
Puppies are ugly.
All babies are ugly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2011, 07:29:18 PM
Quote from: Greg on December 09, 2011, 06:36:45 PM
All babies are ugly.

How about baby ducks?

(http://www.howtodothings.com/files/u263/baby_ducks.jpg)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2011, 07:35:07 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on December 09, 2011, 03:25:53 PM
Puppies are ugly.

Even dachschund puppies?

(http://classifiedonlineads.net/images/2011/07/09/1658/dachshund-babies_4.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: chasmaniac on December 10, 2011, 01:39:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2011, 07:35:07 PM
Even dachschund puppies?

(http://classifiedonlineads.net/images/2011/07/09/1658/dachshund-babies_4.jpg)

Crav'st thou my wisdom? Yea, even unto the seventh generation shall the dachshund pup be hideous, for all its dewy eyes and suchlike. And does the baby duck not waddle without grace? Deny it not! For I am here for the lolz!

Oh, and Handel is the third or fourth GREATEST COMPOSER OF THE WORLD, EVAH.

So there!  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on December 10, 2011, 04:04:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2011, 07:29:18 PM
How about baby ducks?
Actually, I meant human babies. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 10, 2011, 04:19:43 AM
@ Superhorn

So, Gardiner, Norrington, Hogwood, Bruggen, Herreweghe, Bylsma et al. turn out to actually be... Boyden pere & fils with whom you had a bitter personal dispute...

Quote from: Superhorn on December 09, 2011, 02:50:03 PM
   Boyden, and his son, are carrying HIP rhetoric to absurd lengths .  They claim that  even the music of Richard Strauss, Elgar, Holst, Vaughan Williams etc is absolutely wrong on today's instruments . 

So what? Why should you care in such a passionate manner about what they claim?

QuoteI still enjoy the old-fashioned politically incorrect performances  by  Karajan, Marriner,Leppard,  Klemperer,  Beecham,  and other  non HIP conductors , as well as  other musicians, such as  Glenn Gould,  Wanda Landowska,  Itzhak Perlman, Pinchas Zukerman , et al .     In fact, it's actually refreshing to hear those  despised   "wrong" performances   again . 

Ok, so what's your point? That we like what we like, period? All of us here agree on that.

Quote
    And how  do  the Boydens know that Wagner, Brahms,  Mahler, Elgar,  etc would not have loved the way  our  great mainstream  orchestras play their music today ? They don't, and can't .

The question can be reversed: how do you know that Wagner, Brahms,  Mahler, Elgar,  etc would have loved the way  our  great mainstream orchestras play their music today ? You don't, and can't.

Quote
    The sheer arrogance and presumption of their claims  boggles the mind .

What boggles the mind is the extraordinary importance you attach to their utterances.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 10, 2011, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: Greg on December 10, 2011, 04:04:34 AM
Actually, I meant human babies. 

Baby ducks can be ugly, too

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Babyhuey.JPG)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on December 14, 2011, 02:49:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2011, 07:35:07 PM
Even dachschund puppies?

(http://classifiedonlineads.net/images/2011/07/09/1658/dachshund-babies_4.jpg)

I must confess a fondess for pug puppies.  But then again, I'm an owner.
(http://www.thingsthatmakeyougoaahh.com/images/176-magnus6wksm.jpg)
(http://pugforsale.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/spd_20100311201456_b.jpg)

When someone says "they're so ugly, they're cute" I just want to say "You're just ugly!"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on December 14, 2011, 08:02:58 AM
    Ducks are so overrated . They're not all they're quacked up to be !










;D                                                         ;D                                                              ;D                                                       ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jowcol on December 14, 2011, 01:42:58 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 14, 2011, 08:02:58 AM
    Ducks are so overrated . They're not all they're quacked up to be !

;D                                                         ;D                                                              ;D                                                       ;D

CLUCK YOU!   Ooops.  I forgot my manners and resorted to fowl language.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on January 08, 2012, 09:20:06 AM
Stravinsky's neo-classical stuff is kind of sucky.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on August 06, 2012, 08:36:34 AM
Sometimes I hear a piece on the radio that I think is bad Beethoven, that makes me think, "wow, ol' Ludwig really didn't pull it off with this one."

Every time it turns out to be Schubert.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ggluek on August 06, 2012, 03:47:30 PM
Back to the original thread:

1) If Vivaldi had never existed, there wouldn't be a single note he wrote that I would miss.

2) The note sequence B-A-C-H is an ugly sequence, and all the various Fantasies, Fantasias, Fugues, Variations, etc. based on it are correspondingly ugly pieces of music.

3) There's more genius in "Boris Godunov" than in all of Wagner put together.  (I don't really believe that, but I like "B.G." better than anything Wagner wrote. :-))

4) Mozart wrote fewer than a dozen works that are essential to a well-lived life.

I probably have more, but theswe should suffice for now.

george
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on August 08, 2012, 06:45:02 PM
Australian Eloquence has issued various recordings by the Vienna Philharmonic Quartet/Quintet, and I've greatly disliked them all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2012, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: The Six on August 06, 2012, 08:36:34 AM
Sometimes I hear a piece on the radio that I think is bad Beethoven, that makes me think, "wow, ol' Ludwig really didn't pull it off with this one."

Every time it turns out to be Schubert.

ohh, that hurt, haha


Wow, this is the Best Thread Ever!! :-*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 09, 2012, 05:37:05 AM
Sometimes I turn on a classical radio station and hear a random, ear-scratching noise; then I say to myself "Oh boy, their broadcasting system must be seriously fucked up."

Every time it turns out to actually be some Xenakis.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2012, 05:57:52 AM
Quote from: ggluek on August 06, 2012, 03:47:30 PM
Back to the original thread:

1) If Vivaldi had never existed, there wouldn't be a single note he wrote that I would miss.

4) Mozart wrote fewer than a dozen works that are essential to a well-lived life.

He uses a marvelous Ab crochet in 'Summer', I would miss the hell out of that.   ::)

Maybe so, but Wagner didn't write any, so a 12:0  ratio is fair. :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 09, 2012, 06:27:01 AM
Puccini and Verdi are to opera what General Hospital and All My Children are to Television.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: snyprrr on August 09, 2012, 06:28:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2012, 05:37:05 AM
Sometimes I turn on a classical radio station and hear a random, ear-scratching noise; then I say to myself "Oh boy, their broadcasting system must be seriously fucked up."

Every time it turns out to actually be some Xenakis.

ok, now I no longer like this Thread! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on August 09, 2012, 06:55:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2012, 05:37:05 AM
Sometimes I turn on a classical radio station and hear a random, ear-scratching noise; then I say to myself "Oh boy, their broadcasting system must be seriously fucked up."

Every time it turns out to actually be some Xenakis.

The internetz is full of people who can't distinguish a fact from an opinion.

>:D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2012, 07:09:05 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 09, 2012, 06:55:06 AM
The internetz is full of people who can't distinguish a fact from an opinion.

>:D

No need to be self-deprecating, Navneeth....  >:D

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on August 09, 2012, 07:14:12 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2012, 05:37:05 AM
Sometimes I turn on a classical radio station and hear a random, ear-scratching noise; then I say to myself "Oh boy, their broadcasting system must be seriously fucked up."

Every time it turns out to actually be some Xenakis.

:D :D :D
***POUNDS TABLE ***
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on August 09, 2012, 07:19:00 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 09, 2012, 07:09:05 AM
No need to be self-deprecating, Navneeth....  >:D

8)

::) Dude, I thought you were on my side.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2012, 07:33:27 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 09, 2012, 07:19:00 AM
::) Dude, I thought you were on my side.

Dude, I am. I can't help myself sometimes.... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on August 09, 2012, 07:36:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2012, 05:37:05 AM
Sometimes I turn on a classical radio station and hear a random, ear-scratching noise; then I say to myself "Oh boy, their broadcasting system must be seriously fucked up."

Every time it turns out to actually be some Xenakis.

Do you have the wavelengths and/or Internet Radio URLs for these wonderful stations that actually play Xenakis?

And an opinion: the Baroque era was when musical padding was invented.   Music has never quite recovered.

DF
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on August 09, 2012, 07:39:28 AM
Quote from: DaveF on August 09, 2012, 07:36:39 AM
Do you have the wavelengths and/or Internet Radio URLs for these wonderful stations that actually play Xenakis?

He can probably give you the frequency in Mega-hurtz.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Leon on August 09, 2012, 07:46:07 AM
Quote from: DaveF on August 09, 2012, 07:36:39 AM
And an opinion: the Baroque era was when musical padding was invented.   Music has never quite recovered.

Baroque "padding" vs. Xenakis' shrieking - hard choice; NOT!



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2012, 08:37:31 AM
(* munches popcorn *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 09, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 09, 2012, 08:37:31 AM
(* munches popcorn *)

Wait, Karl, popcorn is actually fairly popular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on August 09, 2012, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 09, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
Wait, Karl, popcorn is actually fairly popular.

All the more reason to greedily munch it in front of its fan-base.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on August 09, 2012, 09:31:08 AM
   This may be off topic, but it just occrred to me that Karl Henning's Latin motto
    "Et quid amabo nisi  quod  aenigma est ?  has the word "amabo"  , which is Obama backwards ! 
    Coincidence ? 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on August 09, 2012, 12:46:27 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 09, 2012, 06:55:06 AM
The internetz is full of people who can't distinguish a fact from an opinion.
Not just the internetz, but newspaper, radio, and television press rooms, schools, voting booths, shopping centers, highways, sports arenas, and damned near everywhere else people congregate.

Personally, I don't believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but only those who have taken the time and made the effort to educate themselves so that their opinions are informed by understanding all of the information relevant to the subject.

It's liberating to have opinions on only a few subjects.   ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on August 09, 2012, 01:22:18 PM
Quote from: Arnold on August 09, 2012, 07:46:07 AM
Baroque "padding" vs. Xenakis' shrieking - hard choice; NOT!

Not even a choice; take the beginning of Metastaseis: Xenakis takes thirty-five bars to get from a unison G to a chord containing all 12 notes.  Palestrina would have done that in two beats.  Sheer padding.

DF
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on August 09, 2012, 07:41:33 PM
I finally heard some of Biondi's Vivaldi yesterday. I thought it was crap, though the terrible, terrible production may have been an influence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 10, 2012, 12:19:49 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 09, 2012, 07:41:33 PM
I finally heard some of Biondi's Vivaldi yesterday. I thought it was crap, though the terrible, terrible production may have been an influence.
What recording exactly?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 10, 2012, 03:55:06 AM
Quote from: North Star on August 10, 2012, 12:19:49 AM
What recording exactly?

Certainly not this wonderful recording, I hope...  ;D


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61HZs2PSjJL._SL400_AA250_.jpg)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 10, 2012, 04:14:55 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 09, 2012, 12:46:27 PM
Personally, I don't believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion vote, but only those who have taken the time and made the effort to educate themselves so that their opinions votes are informed by understanding all of the information relevant to the subject.

Fixed in order to make it truly unpopular.  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 04:48:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 10, 2012, 04:14:55 AM
Fixed in order to make it truly unpopular.  ;D
Especially among the gleefully uninformed who are thrilled to be gullible pawns of a ruling class happy to flatter them into voting against their own best interests.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 10, 2012, 04:58:25 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 04:48:10 AM
Especially among the gleefully uninformed who are thrilled to be gullible pawns of a ruling class happy to flatter them into voting against their own best interests.

You're an unrepentant enemy of the people... beware the the sacred popular anger!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2012, 05:21:58 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 04:48:10 AM
Especially among the gleefully uninformed who are thrilled to be gullible pawns of a ruling class happy to flatter them into voting against their own best interests.

Oh, that pisses YOU off too?  ::)

Trouble is, the moronism pandemic is just that. No where to go to avoid it. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 10, 2012, 05:21:58 AM
Oh, that pisses YOU off too?  ::)

Trouble is, the moronism pandemic is just that. No where to go to avoid it. :-\
May God have mercy on our souls.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 05:51:01 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 10, 2012, 04:58:25 AM
You're an unrepentant enemy of the people... beware the the sacred popular anger!  ;D
Ha! I made my choice long ago for the working class and not the ruling class. Sadly (due in no small part to subversion of America's public education system), the lower classes have become their own worst enemies, selling their votes and their children's futures for trinkets, drug-induced stupor, and empty promises.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 10, 2012, 06:25:05 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 05:51:01 AM
. . . selling their votes and their children's futures for trinkets, drug-induced stupor . . . .

(http://i.pinger.pl/pgr355/7473df1c00062a594da1e1cb/images.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 08:09:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 10, 2012, 06:25:05 AM
(http://i.pinger.pl/pgr355/7473df1c00062a594da1e1cb/images.jpg)
No image, Karl.  Too bad, as doubtless it would have been amusing!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2012, 08:16:40 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 08:09:28 AM
No image, Karl.  Too bad, as doubtless it would have been amusing!

Doh, it's my favorite Homer;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/images.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 10, 2012, 08:18:22 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2012, 08:09:28 AM
No image, Karl.  Too bad, as doubtless it would have been amusing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-4P1WPE-Qg
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on August 12, 2012, 05:28:44 PM
Quote from: North Star on August 10, 2012, 12:19:49 AMWhat recording exactly?

Four Seasons.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2012, 05:11:49 AM
Glee! Don't forget Glee!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2012, 06:43:47 AM
Bit of goose for the pineapple distributors, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 13, 2012, 07:12:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 13, 2012, 05:11:49 AM
Glee! Don't forget Glee!

I'd rather forget it - anything but "gleeful".
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2012, 12:53:09 PM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 13, 2012, 07:12:19 AM
I'd rather forget it

Normally, I cannot remember it, myself ....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on August 16, 2012, 11:52:21 AM
All Russian music is crap.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 12:40:18 PM
Quote from: Concord on August 16, 2012, 11:52:21 AM
All Russian music is crap.


Except for the really good Russian music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on August 16, 2012, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: Concord on August 16, 2012, 11:52:21 AM
All Russian music is crap.

I was in Concord last summer, and much Russian music was being played in the stores; those folks sure know their crap.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2012, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 12:40:18 PM

Except for the really good Russian music.

And so very much of it is really good.
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 01:17:53 PM
Quote from: Concord on August 16, 2012, 11:52:21 AM
All Russian music is crap.


Someone would like a word with you...


(http://img.tapatalk.com/4c61fab9-6379-2362.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on August 16, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 01:17:53 PM

Someone would like a word with you...


(http://img.tapatalk.com/4c61fab9-6379-2362.jpg)

And he's one of the worst.

(Hey, it's a thread for unpopular opinions.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 16, 2012, 01:28:58 PM
Quote from: Concord on August 16, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
And he's one of the worst.

(Hey, it's a thread for unpopular opinions.)
It certainly is. :) Who's the least worst?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 16, 2012, 02:25:24 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 01:17:53 PM

Someone would like a word with you...


(http://img.tapatalk.com/4c61fab9-6379-2362.jpg)

Just what exactly did he say?! (Not DSCH, but Concord)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KMgB4_UwLxY/T2_hQRNL2NI/AAAAAAAAAWo/zTwlMIwWT1Y/s320/stravinsky_igor_175x175.jpg)


And here's another modest musician deeply hurt by the statement:
(http://www.yevgenysudbin.com/photos-reper/reper-456.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on August 17, 2012, 05:24:26 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2012, 01:28:58 PM
:) Who's the least worst?

Borodin.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2012, 05:37:18 AM
Well, it would be a funny world if we all thought the same. Borodin (the talented amateur) is far down my list of favorite Russian composers!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on August 17, 2012, 06:09:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2012, 05:37:18 AMWell, it would be a funny world if we all thought the same. Borodin (the talented amateur) is far down my list of favorite Russian composers!

Mm-hmm. Most of the Mighty Handful are on further acquaintance not that mighty.



.... he said, with great humility.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on August 17, 2012, 08:32:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2012, 05:37:18 AM
Well, it would be a funny world if we all thought the same. Borodin (the talented amateur) is far down my list of favorite Russian composers!

I guess I like him because, to my ear, he's the least Russian-sounding of the Russian composers. He reminds me more of Dvorak, which is not a bad thing.

There's Stravinsky, of course, but I think of him more as a world citizen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 17, 2012, 02:50:11 PM
Quote from: Concord on August 17, 2012, 08:32:15 AM
I guess I like him because, to my ear, he's the least Russian-sounding of the Russian composers. He reminds me more of Dvorak, which is not a bad thing.

There's Stravinsky, of course, but I think of him more as a world citizen.

The  Ballets russes works, among others, sound quite Russian to me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 17, 2012, 03:24:28 PM
The Russians are mostly not my greatest loves.

I listen to some of them because, in the car, I tune in to the radio stations and sometimes I get stuck with a Russian.

If I have the sense to take along a CD, there will be no Russian within a mile (c. 1.5 km.) of me.

Except Shostakovich.  Him I like.  Him in fact I adore.  And him, alone of all of them, I have a shelf full of CDs of.  (Syntax?  Sorry....)

Add three or four Prokofiev and a few Boris Tchaikovsky, and we're done.  Uncle's Russian adventure ends at that point.   

Do svidanya.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on August 21, 2012, 06:28:04 AM
I agree: this is a thread, I thought, for unpopular musical opinions, such as, "Neo-romanticism is really just neo-commercialism."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Johnll on August 21, 2012, 05:57:53 PM
A sincere and grateful Thank You!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: RJR on August 23, 2012, 07:41:54 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2011, 07:50:37 AM
I like Shostakovich but, after all, I could live perfectly happy without ever hearing a single note of his anymore. OTOH, how about your life without Mahler?  ;D
Doing just fine without Mahler. Don't even miss him.
And, except for the occasional moments, Bruckner as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 23, 2012, 07:45:48 AM
Quote from: RJR on August 23, 2012, 07:41:54 AM
Doing just fine without Mahler. Don't even miss him.
And, except for the occasional moments, Bruckner as well.

Ditto.

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Leon on August 23, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
Except for Brahms, Verdi, and some French composers, e.g. Faure and Debussy; I could easily live without the last half of the 19th century.  Especially the orchestral works.  My listening habits normally span the Baroque-Classical eras and then skip right to the 20th century, bypassing the Romantic period as much as possible.

:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Scarpia on August 23, 2012, 11:19:07 AM
Quote from: RJR on August 23, 2012, 07:41:54 AM
Doing just fine without Mahler. Don't even miss him.
And, except for the occasional moments, Bruckner as well.

I discovered Mahler during the LP era, which was good, because on an LP you can literally see the good parts in a Mahler symphony on the disc.  This allows you to skip past the endless "chamber music texture" and go straight to the two or three good minutes in each half-hour movement.*

[runs away]

*I exclude the 9th from this.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on August 23, 2012, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Arnold on August 23, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
Except for Brahms, Verdi, and some French composers, e.g. Faure and Debussy; I could easily live without the last half of the 19th century.  Especially the orchestral works.  My listening habits normally span the Baroque-Classical eras and then skip right to the 20th century, bypassing the Romantic period as much as possible.

:)

This comes very close to my taste as well. I go mostly from Bach, The Classical Threesome all the way to Mahler and later. I think I skip a few more decades than you. Well, with the exceptions of Schumann and a few select few.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 23, 2012, 11:33:34 AM
Quote from: Arnold on August 23, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
Except for Brahms, Verdi, and some French composers, e.g. Faure and Debussy; I could easily live without the last half of the 19th century.  Especially the orchestral works.  My listening habits normally span the Baroque-Classical eras and then skip right to the 20th century, bypassing the Romantic period as much as possible.

:)

I would replace Verdi with Dvorak and add Tchaikovsky, but only because I don't care much for 19th Century opera. Otherwise, that works for me, too.

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 23, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
Truth is, I could really  live without any music of any era*.

*(But would it be worth living?)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on August 23, 2012, 11:59:53 PM
Keep up this ditto-ing and me-too-ing for a little while longer and you'll all be kicked out of this thread for holding popular opinions and posting them here. >:(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2012, 04:06:49 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 23, 2012, 11:19:07 AM
I discovered Mahler during the LP era, which was good, because on an LP you can literally see the good parts in a Mahler symphony on the disc.  This allows you to skip past the endless "chamber music texture" and go straight to the two or three good minutes in each half-hour movement.*
I thought those were the good parts....  ???

Quote from: springrite on August 23, 2012, 11:30:34 AM
This comes very close to my taste as well. I go mostly from Bach, The Classical Threesome all the way to Mahler and later. I think I skip a few more decades than you. Well, with the exceptions of Schumann Dvořák, Brahms, Tchaikovsky and a select few.
Ditto (but corrected with emphasis added).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on August 24, 2012, 04:16:59 AM
Well, I tried and tried, sometimes I liked (seldom), but still atonal and Avant-garde music is complete tosh, utter nonsense, and indeed, mostly not even musical.  There is nothing in it of any value.  It is like Homeopathy saying it's better, goes deeper,  than scientifically proven medical practice.  Pretentious and unattractive...and bollocks..  Harrumph!!!   >:(
Hows that for an unpopular opinion?   0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2012, 04:37:42 AM
Quote from: Scots John on August 24, 2012, 04:16:59 AM
Well, I tried and tried, sometimes I liked (seldom), but still atonal and Avant-garde music is complete tosh, utter nonsense, and indeed, mostly not even musical.  There is nothing in it of any value.  It is like Homeopathy saying it's better, goes deeper,  than scientifically proven medical practice.  Pretentious and unattractive...and bollocks..  Harrumph!!!   >:(
Hows that for an unpopular opinion?   0:)

My next atonal piece, I'm writin' fer you, laddie! : )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on August 24, 2012, 05:17:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2012, 04:37:42 AM
My next atonal piece, I'm writin' fer you, laddie! : )

Oh dear... :-\ :o ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2012, 07:01:15 AM
Well, sorry you've a wait! Only the atonal score I'm presently working on is already bespoke! : )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on August 24, 2012, 12:33:08 PM
Quote from: Scots John on August 24, 2012, 04:16:59 AM
Well, I tried and tried, sometimes I liked (seldom), but still atonal and Avant-garde music is complete tosh, utter nonsense, and indeed, mostly not even musical.  There is nothing in it of any value.  It is like Homeopathy saying it's better, goes deeper,  than scientifically proven medical practice.  Pretentious and unattractive...and bollocks..  Harrumph!!!   >:(
Hows that for an unpopular opinion?   0:)

Not really all that unpopular ... ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2012, 02:20:17 PM
Quote from: Scots John on August 24, 2012, 04:16:59 AM
Well, I tried and tried, sometimes I liked (seldom), but still atonal and Avant-garde music is complete tosh, utter nonsense, and indeed, mostly not even musical.  There is nothing in it of any value.  It is like Homeopathy saying it's better, goes deeper,  than scientifically proven medical practice.  Pretentious and unattractive...and bollocks..  Harrumph!!!   >:(
Hows that for an unpopular opinion?   0:)

The greater part of me agrees with you profusely, John, but the other part disagrees only on the grounds that there are several atonal works that I do love and have come to enjoy just as much as music with more tonality. Alban Berg is certainly my favorite composer from this school of thought, but I do love some Ligeti as well. I even like some of Schoenberg's 12-tone works. I guess it all depends on what you're listening for in music. There's plenty of emotion in this music, but you're right there's a lot of it that just seems to be one giant experiment for it's own sake. A lot of this "music" I simply put in file 13 but there is some of it that I do enjoy and that does touch my heart.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bigshot on August 29, 2012, 10:20:04 PM
I've got a good one... I think the best British classical composers are the LIGHT classical ones. I enjoy Farnon and Coates more than Britten and Elgar.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on September 06, 2012, 11:08:25 PM
Quote from: bigshot on August 29, 2012, 10:20:04 PM
I've got a good one... I think the best British classical composers are the LIGHT classical ones. I enjoy Farnon and Coates more than Britten and Elgar.

But Elgar did some nice lighter pieces.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: otare on September 09, 2012, 02:57:12 AM
I don't like the voice of Kirsten Flagstad! I have tried and tried, but I don't see what is so fantastic about her singing.
Being Norwegian, this is a really unpopular opinion!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ten thumbs on September 09, 2012, 08:06:29 AM
Seems like I have an unpopular opinion because I like the music of the Romantic era. I just wish that more people would try and understand it. I like the ideal of every note and every harmony being crucial to the whole.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 08:32:46 AM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on September 09, 2012, 08:06:29 AM
Seems like I have an unpopular opinion because I like the music of the Romantic era. I just wish that more people would try and understand it. I like the ideal of every note and every harmony being crucial to the whole.
The political correctness of university culture conditioned me to disparage Romantic music in my youth (perhaps because it was so popular despite the efforts of academic composers & critics to cram "music by the numbers" down our throats?). In my maturity (40+ for me, a late-bloomer, indeed, but at least I bloomed!), I realized slowly that much of my favorite music was of the sort often classified as Romantic. That helped open my mind to other composers and music that I'd never really given a fair chance to--most notably Sibelius, long disparaged as a retrograde Romantic but whom I subsequently heard as the paragon of Modernism (in every sense but the very narrow academic orthodoxy equating "Modern" music solely with Schoenberg and his followers).

The gist of this all is that I relearned what I had learned long ago in school, that the things of the world are distinct from the categories and concepts we apply to them, and that  it's a grave handicap to mistake things for their common classifications. This is the most widespread category error on earth, and the reason why Hell is paved with good intentions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 11, 2012, 12:44:26 AM
Ravel and Debussy have virtually nothing in common as composers.

Oh, and Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" is a brilliantly crafted song.  With "Paparazzi" also being exceptionally good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:10:09 AM
I like listening to music on my phone. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on September 11, 2012, 02:22:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:10:09 AM
I like listening to music on my phone. :)

Also, you like Mendelssohn. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:46:10 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 11, 2012, 02:22:20 AM
Also, you like Mendelssohn. :P

You betcha! ;D
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2012, 02:58:37 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:46:10 AM
You betcha! ;D

Smack 'em, Davey, je-je-jeh!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 11, 2012, 09:42:54 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:10:09 AM
I like listening to music on my phone. :)

This is actually the most efficient way for me to listen, as I have a 30 minute walk to school.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 12, 2012, 04:02:09 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:10:09 AM
I like listening to music on my phone. :)

As long as you use headphones..

Although the image of teenagers blasting, say, Wagner on the bus from the tiny cellphone speakers is quite endearing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 09:17:16 AM
Here's some unpopular opinions: Mozart wasn't a genius, Bach is a bore, Beethoven is overrated, need I go on or have I done enough damage? :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on September 12, 2012, 09:29:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 09:17:16 AM
Here's some unpopular opinions: Mozart wasn't a genius, Bach is a bore, Beethoven is overrated, need I go on or have I done enough damage? :D

No to both. All that is just old hat. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 12:06:08 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 12, 2012, 09:29:06 AM
No to both. All that is just old hat. :P

This is true. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 12, 2012, 12:07:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 09:17:16 AM
Here's some unpopular opinions: Mozart wasn't a genius, Bach is a bore, Beethoven is overrated, need I go on or have I done enough damage? :D

There were times when I would agree with the last two statements but my position has been constantly eroding since then (mostly due to the St Matthew Passion / Goldbergs and Beethoven's piano sonatas & SQ's). I'd still say that most of the time, Bach lacks soul, but I'd have to be drunk and not in the company of people who understand music better than me - e.g. GMG :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 12, 2012, 12:19:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 09:17:16 AM
Here's some unpopular opinions: Mozart wasn't a genius, Bach is a bore, Beethoven is overrated, need I go on or have I done enough damage? :D

Quite right! ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 12:36:25 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 12, 2012, 12:07:16 PM
There were times when I would agree with the last two statements but my position has been constantly eroding since then (mostly due to the St Matthew Passion / Goldbergs and Beethoven's piano sonatas & SQ's). I'd still say that most of the time, Bach lacks soul, but I'd have to be drunk and not in the company of people who understand music better than me - e.g. GMG :)

Before getting into classical, people online would keep telling me what composers I need to listen to. Most of them said either Mozart, Beethoven, or Bach. What these people don't understand and probably still don't is that I believe people need to create their path with music. I mean sure we can take a suggestion or a recommendation for a recording, but, ultimately, we are the only ones that can decide what we want out of this music. Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven aren't composers I flock to nor have I ever even considered them apart of my musical vocabulary. Perhaps some of this comes from the fact that I didn't study music and thus I never had to learn a Bach or Beethoven piece on the piano. No, I come to music from a completely different side. I came to classical from a rock and jazz background with no training in the alleged 'classics'. When I chose to explore Bartok, Ravel, or Bruckner, people who knew I was new to classical would say that I need to be listening to better, more influential composers. After awhile, I considered these suggestions nothing more than a form of bullying. Nobody can force you to listen to anything. I think these "suggestions" did more harm than good. Now, I'm glad I did what the hell I wanted to and didn't listen to the naysayers who said I was making a mistake by purposely bypassing the Baroque and Classical Eras. I bypassed these periods of music because they didn't interest me. I like dissonance that is in your face. I like harmonic ambiguity. I like music that pounds away at your heartstrings and never lets up and music that starts off witty but suddenly becomes vulgar. This is the music of my soul. It is real, it is honest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 12, 2012, 01:01:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 12:36:25 PM
Before getting into classical, people online would keep telling me what composers I need to listen to. Most of them said either Mozart, Beethoven, or Bach. What these people don't understand and probably still don't is that I believe people need to create their path with music.

AMEN TO THAT!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ruramikael on September 12, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
If I had not discovered Liszt, Peterson-Berger, Rangström and Stenhammar in the mid-80s, I would probably have been less interested in classical music today. Beethoven is still number one to me, but Mozart and Brahms are not so concsistent (according to my taste).
I also feel the need to hear music live (same with rock music), and my favourite composers (except Beethoven....) are performed very infrequently (at least in Sweden :().

/Mikael
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 12, 2012, 01:51:48 PM
Quote from: ruramikael on September 12, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
If I had not discovered Liszt, Peterson-Berger, Rangström and Stenhammar in the mid-80s, I would probably have been less interested in classical music today. Beethoven is still number one to me, but Mozart and Brahms are not so concsistent (according to my taste).
I also feel the need to hear music live (same with rock music), and my favourite composers (except Beethoven....) are performed very infrequently (at least in Sweden :().

/Mikael

Yes yes!  Another Swedish music lover!  Atterberg and Rangstrom in particular rock my boat in an alarming way.  Welcome Mikael!!  Your opinion is not at all unpopular!!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2012, 02:04:45 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 09:17:16 AM
Here's some unpopular opinions: Mozart wasn't a genius, Bach is a bore, Beethoven is overrated, need I go on or have I done enough damage? :D

No no, you've told me quite enough about yourself already.

*Puts on 'Tempest' Piano Sonata*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 02:45:08 PM
Quote from: orfeo on September 12, 2012, 02:04:45 PM
No no, you've told me quite enough about yourself already.

*Puts on 'Tempest' Piano Sonata*

^
^
Said the guy who can't make up his mind which box set to buy. ::) At least I know what I like and what I don't like.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 12, 2012, 05:55:50 PM
You don't have to be a genius all of the time. You just have to be a genius at the right time:

[asin]B0013NFPO4[/asin]

So much less of a bore than Bartok.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on September 12, 2012, 06:00:44 PM
MI, by coming from a view point of anger you're shutting yourself out from the better picture.  What would Beethoven or Bach care about the people who suggested they listen to their music?  What do those people even care if you follow their advise or not?  Answer: not a whit.  And who do you really hurt?  Yourself.  Being upset abut being recommended music is the silliest sob story that I've ever heard.  Defining your interests based on what you like is cool, getting bent out of shape because you don't like what the majority likes is not.  Just listening to CM means that you like music that the majority does not like.  If you truly accept your tastes, then you will not want validation from others, which in turns means that you will not be upset when it is not granted.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 12, 2012, 06:05:48 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 12, 2012, 06:00:44 PM
MI, by coming from a view point of anger you're shutting yourself out from the better picture.  What would Beethoven or Bach care about the people who suggested they listen to their music?  What do those people even care if you follow their advise or not?  Answer: not a whit.  And who do you really hurt?  Yourself.  Being upset abut being recommended music is the silliest sob story that I've ever heard.  Defining your interests based on what you like is cool, getting bent out of shape because you don't like what the majority likes is not.  Just listening to CM means that you like music that the majority does not like.  If you truly accept your tastes, then you will not want validation from others, which in turns means that you will not be upset when it is not granted.

Post of the day.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:09:46 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 12, 2012, 06:00:44 PM
MI, by coming from a view point of anger you're shutting yourself out from the better picture.  What would Beethoven or Bach care about the people who suggested they listen to their music?  What do those people even care if you follow their advise or not?  Answer: not a whit.  And who do you really hurt?  Yourself.  Being upset abut being recommended music is the silliest sob story that I've ever heard.  Defining your interests based on what you like is cool, getting bent out of shape because you don't like what the majority likes is not.  Just listening to CM means that you like music that the majority does not like.  If you truly accept your tastes, then you will not want validation from others, which in turns means that you will not be upset when it is not granted.

I don't need validation from others. I also never needed a recommendation from a classical snob who thinks they know music better than I do. The problem I encountered where people telling me what I need to listen to. My whole argument is exactly your point, Dave. I also am not coming from a viewpoint of anger. I'm coming from the viewpoint of somebody who gets damn tired of people thumbing their noses at me because I don't listen to what they think I should be listening to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2012, 06:44:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:09:46 PM
....I also am not coming from a viewpoint of anger. I'm coming from the viewpoint of somebody who gets damn tired of people thumbing their noses at me because I don't listen to what they think I should be listening to.

It was easy to tell that there was no anger there, you didn't need to belabor it. ::)  Anyway, who really gives a damn what you listen to? You like what you like, I like what I like, DavidW likes what he likes. Where's the problem? It's kinda like you have a teeny tiny chip on your shoulder... :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2012, 11:21:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 10:00:49 PM
What about 2012 purchases? What is on your list right now?

34 CDs of Dvorak, Poulenc, Janacek, Liszt, Delibes and Bridge.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
   Please excuse the alliteration , but  Chopin wrote music of pallid prettiness, perfumed preciosity and swooning salonish sentimentality .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 13, 2012, 07:19:57 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
   ....Chopin wrote music of pallid prettiness, perfumed preciosity and swooning salonish sentimentality .

Say that rapidly and accurately six times and I will believe you.   :P  Mind you, I can easily say that myself six times quickly.  er...
that that that that that that
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 07:39:05 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
   Please excuse the alliteration , but  Chopin wrote music of pallid prettiness, perfumed preciosity and swooning salonish sentimentality .

That is not an unpopular opinion. It is the opinion of a philistine ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 07:41:05 AM
Unpopular opinion is something like I just plain like atonal music.  Stating that you have no appreciation for Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Chopin isn't an opinion: it's lack of taste ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 13, 2012, 08:23:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2012, 07:41:05 AM
Unpopular opinion is something like I just plain like atonal music.  Stating that you have no appreciation for Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Chopin isn't an opinion: it's lack of taste ; )

:P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 13, 2012, 09:05:10 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
   Please excuse the alliteration , but  Chopin wrote music of pallid prettiness, perfumed preciosity and swooning salonish sentimentality .

This is precisely the kind of smug, self-satisfied, superficial nonsense that makes someone like myself unwilling to contribute any further to a forum like this. It is blatantly inaccurate and betrays a virtually complete lack of basic knowledge of Chopin's music, to which such epithets as the above apply to only a small percentage of his weaker early work. And if the writer makes any attempt at further alliteration, I will be more than happy to thunder the B minor scherzo, the D minor prelude, and both C minor etudes in his ears seriatim until he repents, recants, and otherwise refuses to restate such ridiculous rodomontade.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 09:16:33 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 13, 2012, 09:05:10 AM
This is precisely the kind of smug, self-satisfied, superficial nonsense that makes someone like myself unwilling to contribute any further to a forum like this. It is blatantly inaccurate and betrays a virtually complete lack of basic knowledge of Chopin's music, to which such epithets as the above apply to only a small percentage of his weaker early work. And if the writer makes any attempt at further alliteration, I will be more than happy to thunder the B minor scherzo, the D minor prelude, and both C minor etudes in his ears seriatim until he repents, recants, and otherwise refuses to restate such ridiculous rodomontade.

Thunder on, poco Sfz!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bhodges on September 13, 2012, 09:19:21 AM
(Filing away reminder to use "rodomontade" as soon as possible.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 10:04:03 AM
   Maybe I'm a philistine, but you should remember that the Biblical philistines were actually a very cultured and artistic people !
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 13, 2012, 10:17:44 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 13, 2012, 09:05:10 AM
This is precisely the kind of smug, self-satisfied, superficial nonsense that makes someone like myself unwilling to contribute any further to a forum like this. It is blatantly inaccurate and betrays a virtually complete lack of basic knowledge of Chopin's music, to which such epithets as the above apply to only a small percentage of his weaker early work. And if the writer makes any attempt at further alliteration, I will be more than happy to thunder the B minor scherzo, the D minor prelude, and both C minor etudes in his ears seriatim until he repents, recants, and otherwise refuses to restate such ridiculous rodomontade.

I can't tell if either of you are actually serious.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 10:19:35 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 10:04:03 AM
   Maybe I'm a philistine, but you should remember that the Biblical philistines were actually a very cultured and artistic people !

Yes, the Cretans, too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on September 13, 2012, 10:26:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:09:46 PM
I don't need validation from others. I also never needed a recommendation from a classical snob who thinks they know music better than I do. The problem I encountered where people telling me what I need to listen to. My whole argument is exactly your point, Dave. I also am not coming from a viewpoint of anger. I'm coming from the viewpoint of somebody who gets damn tired of people thumbing their noses at me because I don't listen to what they think I should be listening to.
There's a world of differnece between "don't listen to" (which of course is your right and I won't even bat an eyelid by your choices) and "Bach is a bore" - which he isn't - and people will argue you forever because it's just plain wrong.

Why this eagerness to brand music one doen't find interesting on a personal level as boring, overrated or whatever? To me it seems like validation when we need to brand music we don't enjoy as "bad" and music we enjoy as "good".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on September 13, 2012, 10:28:36 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
   Please excuse the alliteration , but  Chopin wrote music of pallid prettiness, perfumed preciosity and swooning salonish sentimentality .
Pardon my English, but I don't find pretty, precious or sentimental even slightly derogative.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2012, 10:30:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2012, 10:19:35 AM
Yes, the Cretans, too.

Spellcheck, Karl, spellcheck...  :D

8)
Title: Re: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 10:42:55 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2012, 10:30:21 AM
Spellcheck, Karl, spellcheck...  :D

8)

Oui
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ruramikael on September 13, 2012, 11:42:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:09:46 PM
I don't need validation from others. I also never needed a recommendation from a classical snob who thinks they know music better than I do. The problem I encountered where people telling me what I need to listen to. My whole argument is exactly your point, Dave. I also am not coming from a viewpoint of anger. I'm coming from the viewpoint of somebody who gets damn tired of people thumbing their noses at me because I don't listen to what they think I should be listening to.
Right know I am listening to Paderewski Piano Concerto op. 17, which is much better than I expected. I still feel a need to inform people that a particular composer is often much better than his reputation. Perform something different, it is not necessary to play Symphonie Fantastique every season..........(and I like Berlioz!)./Mikael
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on September 13, 2012, 11:51:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 06:09:46 PM
I don't need validation from others. I also never needed a recommendation from a classical snob who thinks they know music better than I do. The problem I encountered where people telling me what I need to listen to. My whole argument is exactly your point, Dave. I also am not coming from a viewpoint of anger. I'm coming from the viewpoint of somebody who gets damn tired of people thumbing their noses at me because I don't listen to what they think I should be listening to.

I had the notion that this was a thread where someone could offer an unpopular opinion without getting blasted.  Guess I was wrong about that.  At any rate, if blasting is okay, MI is the man to be on the receiving end.  He just loves to dump on the most popular composers; must make him feel special.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 12:43:24 PM
"A lot of people like Bach. A solid consensus of professional musicians hold Bach in high esteem, even in admiration. He can't be any good. Give me some Milhaud."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 01:12:17 PM
    Maybe I was being a little hard with poor old freddie C, but I was just trying to push the envelope .  I've never even been to Crete,
so you can't call me a Cretan .
People have said far worse things about composers I love dearly , such as Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, and Richard Strauss.
But I don't call people who dislike their music  philistines . 
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 01:27:25 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 01:12:17 PM
But I don't call people who dislike their music  philistines.

People who simply and honestly say "I don't like Chopin's music" are not philistines. Saying the sort of ignorant rubbish which you offered as a "critique," is philistinism.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on September 13, 2012, 01:32:54 PM
I have another unpopular opinion!

Schumann is a fine symphonist. 0:)
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2012, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 13, 2012, 01:32:54 PM
I have another unpopular opinion!

Schumann is a fine symphonist. 0:)

Clara? Are you nuts? ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 13, 2012, 01:35:29 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 13, 2012, 01:32:54 PM
Schumann is a fine symphonist. 0:)

Certainly, Dave!!!! I love his symphonies! His 4th is a piece I listen to every Saturday while travelling back home from the academy! :) I love the other 3 very very much too. :)  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ruramikael on September 13, 2012, 01:43:09 PM
How about poor orchestration? I  think that Brahms texture is too heavy. Normally Schumann's orchestration is considered as poor, but to me Brahms may be even worse (This is a very unpopular opinion by experience...). :-X

Mikael
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 05:59:26 PM
Quote from: The new erato on September 13, 2012, 10:26:35 AMWhy this eagerness to brand music one doen't find interesting on a personal level as boring, overrated or whatever? To me it seems like validation when we need to brand music we don't enjoy as "bad" and music we enjoy as "good".

As I posited elsewhere (to zero reaction), I think the moral and aesthetic senses are actually one and the same.



Quote from: Superhorn on September 13, 2012, 10:04:03 AMMaybe I'm a philistine, but you should remember that the Biblical philistines were actually a very cultured and artistic people !

Political correctness gone mad!


;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on September 13, 2012, 06:07:52 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2012, 12:43:24 PM
"A lot of people like Bach. A solid consensus of professional musicians hold Bach in high esteem, even in admiration. He can't be any good. Give me some Milhaud."
(Side note:  One knows when one has read too much Adorno with that kind of statement)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 13, 2012, 06:22:14 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 13, 2012, 11:51:49 AM
I had the notion that this was a thread where someone could offer an unpopular opinion without getting blasted.  Guess I was wrong about that.  At any rate, if blasting is okay, MI is the man to be on the receiving end.  He just loves to dump on the most popular composers; must make him feel special.

I assumed this was the thread where I could state something that would be unpopular and get away it. I guess not! I like plenty of "popular" composers I just don't like ones that bore me to tears. Like, hmmm....I don't know, BACH!!! Bach's music is definitely a cure for insomnia.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 06:31:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2012, 01:27:25 PMPeople who simply and honestly say "I don't like Chopin's music" are not philistines. Saying the sort of ignorant rubbish which you offered as a "critique," is philistinism.

Well, he's saying why he doesn't like it, which is a reaction based on personal taste. (How could it be anything else?)

He's not insisting we dig up and burn poor old Frederick C!


I can see how someone might hear mere perfumed frippery in some of Chopin, but... well... I choose to ignore those elements of the music in favour of the brilliant, orginal writing and terrific tunes :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: liuzerus87 on September 13, 2012, 07:12:45 PM
Quote from: ruramikael on September 13, 2012, 01:43:09 PM
How about poor orchestration? I  think that Brahms texture is too heavy. Normally Schumann's orchestration is considered as poor, but to me Brahms may be even worse (This is a very unpopular opinion by experience...). :-X

Mikael

Obligatory indignant response.

Actually, I find that this is a very common opinion. I don't agree at all with this, but I've seen similar sentiments expressed often. However, complaining about his chamber music might actually make you a "philistine".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on September 13, 2012, 07:54:31 PM
As the original Koechlin lover on this board, I can say that Bach's Partita No. 6 is the best thing he ever wrote, and maybe the best multi-movement keyboard work, as well (not that I've heard them all).
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 13, 2012, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 06:31:40 PM
Well, he's saying why he doesn't like it, which is a reaction based on personal taste. (How could it be anything else?)

He's not insisting we dig up and burn poor old Frederick C!


I can see how someone might hear mere perfumed frippery in some of Chopin, but... well... I choose to ignore those elements of the music in favour of the brilliant, orginal writing and terrific tunes :)

He also wrote terrible symphonies.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 08:34:35 PM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 13, 2012, 08:16:45 PMHe also wrote terrible symphonies.

Nope, too obscure, sorry.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 14, 2012, 04:00:30 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 08:34:35 PM
Nope, too obscure, sorry.

They were all silent. Conceptual, you know? And I was like, "Fred, ain't no one goin' get this. It's too high-minded and abstract. You gotta brak that groove down." That's what I said.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 14, 2012, 04:14:08 AM

*Silence*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 14, 2012, 04:15:48 AM
Whereas Chopin's operas are exceptionally good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on September 14, 2012, 04:22:12 AM
Uh, guys, the Unfounded Opinions thread is down the hall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bhodges on September 14, 2012, 06:12:25 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 14, 2012, 04:15:48 AM
Whereas Chopin's operas are exceptionally good.

;D

Quote from: Opus106 on September 14, 2012, 04:22:12 AM
Uh, guys, the Unfounded Opinions thread is down the hall.

;D  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 14, 2012, 06:15:45 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 14, 2012, 04:22:12 AM
Uh, guys, the Unfounded Opinions thread is down the hall.

It's called multiverse. Duh.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on September 14, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 14, 2012, 06:15:45 AM
It's called multiverse. Duh.

As I said, down the hall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2012, 06:36:46 AM
Pettersson sucks lemur gonads.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 14, 2012, 06:39:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2012, 06:36:46 AM
Pettersson sucks lemur gonads.

Composer who doubles as gonad expert. I wouldn't be able to tell the differences between a lemur gonad and a baboon testicle.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2012, 06:40:45 AM
Nor I. It's in his diaries.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 14, 2012, 07:29:14 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 14, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
As I said, down the hall.

Ai! That's not unfounded! It was demonstrated for all to see on Family Guy or are you Brian Giffin?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on September 14, 2012, 07:37:46 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 14, 2012, 07:29:14 AM
Ai! That's not unfounded! It was demonstrated for all to see on Family Guy or are you Brian Giffin?

I might be, in another part of the multiverse... if only that were true.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 14, 2012, 08:08:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2012, 06:36:46 AM
Pettersson sucks lemur gonads.

A most satisfying and eminently invigourating activity.  Recommended.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 14, 2012, 08:16:04 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 14, 2012, 04:22:12 AM
Uh, guys, the Unfounded Opinions thread is down the hall.

Now, see, the very FIRST thing you need to do if you're aiming to get your opinion away from all those boringly popular opinions is to create your own facts.  Clears the field nicely.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 14, 2012, 08:19:43 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 14, 2012, 08:16:04 AM
Now, see, the very FIRST thing you need to do if you're aiming to get your opinion away from all those boringly popular opinions is to create your own facts.  Clears the field nicely.

Chopin's Symphony No 2
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1490230/a/Chopin%3A+Symphony+No.+2.htm
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 14, 2012, 08:37:06 AM
This thread has the potnetial to be as popular as the WAYLT thread.   :P

Viva Chopin.   8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 14, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
Opinions that are popular are absolutely worthless.

If the unpopular opinion thread becomes way too popular, it also becomes totally worthless.

We can call this thread WAYOUT (What Are Your Opioninated Utterances Today?)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 14, 2012, 08:56:42 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 14, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
Opinions that are popular are absolutely worthless.

A popular opinion in itself.   :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2012, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 14, 2012, 06:39:25 AM
Composer who doubles as gonad expert. I wouldn't be able to tell the differences between a lemur gonad and a baboon testicle.

Size, as I understand it.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2012, 10:09:54 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 14, 2012, 08:37:06 AM
Viva Chopin.   8)

I'm with you, laddie!
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2012, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 14, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
We can call this thread WAYOUT (What Are Your Opioninated Utterances Today?)

Flash-freeze gnu's vomit, thaw, steam, serve on artisanal multigrain toast, and the result is æsthetically superior to Glazunov.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2012, 10:17:23 AM
Because just saying "I don't seem to care for Glazunov" isn't enough.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 14, 2012, 10:21:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2012, 10:16:28 AM
Flash-freeze gnu's vomit, thaw, steam, serve on artisanal multigrain toast, and the result is æsthetically superior to Glazunov.
I see you hold Ditters von Dittersdorf on a far loftier level than Glazunov!
Title: Re: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2012, 10:26:48 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 14, 2012, 10:21:32 AM
I see you hold Ditters von Dittersdorf on a far loftier level than Glazunov!

Or, I'm still just warming up....
Title: Re: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 14, 2012, 10:28:10 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2012, 10:26:48 AM
Or, I'm still just warming up....

At least I know you are not just a sucker for anything Russian!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 14, 2012, 10:32:45 AM
Beethoven's Violin Concerto and Brahms' First Piano Concerto are among my least favorite works by anybody, ever.  :(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 14, 2012, 10:52:06 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2012, 10:32:45 AM
Beethoven's Violin Concerto and Brahms' First Piano Concerto are among my least favorite works by anybody, ever.  :(

Always nice to see John Cage moving up the ranking...  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 14, 2012, 11:09:52 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 14, 2012, 10:52:06 AM
Always nice to see John Cage moving up the ranking...  ;D

SILENCE!!!!!   >:(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on September 14, 2012, 11:29:04 AM
I've got a couple more:

Vivaldi is a great composer.

Mozart's early works are worth listening to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 14, 2012, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 14, 2012, 11:09:52 AM
SILENCE!!!!!   >:(

Deafening, isn't it?  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2012, 11:55:12 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 14, 2012, 11:29:04 AM
Mozart's early works are worth listening to.

How early? ; )

Of course, in a Cageian way, anything is worth listening to....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on September 14, 2012, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 14, 2012, 11:29:04 AM
I've got a couple more:

Vivaldi is a great composer.

Mozart's early works are worth listening to.

Are they unpopular opinions in general?  Which brings up how do you define or even know what is unpopular in general, or is it just among people you know, or does it just mean pieces which aren't that well known rather than unpopular?  Obviously some things have more acclaim and will take the limelight more, that's inevitable and doesn't have to reflect badly on lesser known works. 

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2012, 01:04:55 PM
Quote from: starrynight on September 14, 2012, 12:42:49 PM
Are they unpopular opinions in general?  Which brings up how do you define or even know what is unpopular in general, or is it just among people you know, or does it just mean pieces which aren't that well known rather than unpopular?  Obviously some things have more acclaim and will take the limelight more, that's inevitable and doesn't have to reflect badly on lesser known works.

If these 2 are considered representational, then I would say unpopular in general, since the majority of those who express an opinion on either of them tend to be negative. I personally feel that these people suffer from cranio-rectal inversion syndrome (CRIS), but hey, that's just me; Mr Unpopular himself. :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 14, 2012, 01:38:36 PM
20th Century SQs

Britten > Shostakovich
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 14, 2012, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 14, 2012, 08:19:43 AM
Chopin's Symphony No 2
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1490230/a/Chopin%3A+Symphony+No.+2.htm

Oh Lordy. Another recording to buy?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 14, 2012, 08:51:44 PM
Quote from: orfeo on September 14, 2012, 07:39:54 PM
Oh Lordy. Another recording to buy?
Be patient. Wait till the Complete Chopin Symphonies boxset to come out. You'd get a much better deal then,.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 15, 2012, 12:40:00 AM
And how long's that going to take?  I mean, as far as I know no-one's recorded Symphony No.5 yet!

http://www.justsheetmusic.com/sheet-music/frederic-chopin-symphony-no-5/ (http://www.justsheetmusic.com/sheet-music/frederic-chopin-symphony-no-5/)

EDIT: Follow the links, you'll also find Chopin performing the William Tell Overture.  I'm not kidding. I wish to God that I was, but I'm not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on September 16, 2012, 08:22:58 AM
   What's gnu, said the wildebeest . 








;D                                                                  ;D                                                           ;D
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2012, 10:16:28 AMFlash-freeze gnu's vomit, thaw, steam, serve on artisanal multigrain toast, and the result is æsthetically superior to Glazunov.
Such invective for such a harmless composer! Do you not even like the Seasons?

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 14, 2012, 01:38:36 PM20th Century SQs

Britten > Shostakovich

My arse > Britten
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 16, 2012, 07:19:47 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 07:17:45 PM
Such invective for such a harmless composer! Do you not even like the Seasons?
My favorite Glazunov, way ahead of the Seasons, is the opulent String Quintet Op 39. If you didn't know better you'd think it was Borodin. Checked the log; I've listened to Glazunov 10 times in 2011-12 and 6 of those 10 have been the quintet.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 07:36:50 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 16, 2012, 07:19:47 PMMy favorite Glazunov, way ahead of the Seasons, is the opulent String Quintet Op 39. If you didn't know better you'd think it was Borodin.

I'm afraid I find Borodin a bore.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2012, 10:46:14 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 14, 2012, 01:38:36 PM
20th Century SQs

Britten > Shostakovich

Quote from: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 07:17:45 PM
My arse > Britten

I was unaware your arse composed music, well, I guess all of ours do in a way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 10:53:29 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2012, 10:46:14 PMI was unaware your arse composed music, well, I guess all of ours do in a way.

*Deleted comment about Concerto for Trouser Trumpet*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 17, 2012, 12:25:22 AM
Glazunov might have composed one of my favorite pieces ever:

http://www.youtube.com/v/MeSvmhWVwxg
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 17, 2012, 07:29:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2012, 10:32:45 AM
Beethoven's Violin Concerto and Brahms' First Piano Concerto are among my least favorite works by anybody, ever.  :(

Hmmm. Very interesting, as I feel similarly. No wonder I always like and admire Brian (our Brian, not the composer that is). I have always felt that the Violin Concerto is one of Beethoven's few complete failures in a large form, its first movement an abortive attempt to reconcile lyricism with sonata form (a problem he solved far better in the 4th piano concerto and elsewhere), followed by a banal set of variations and a dull rondo finale. As for the Brahms, it opens like a house on fire with one of the most magnificent themes ever, but its sprawling construction fails to maintain momentum. The rondo is perhaps the most successful movement, but I literally find myself unable to remember any part of the slow movement after I've heard it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Papy Oli on September 17, 2012, 11:16:58 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 17, 2012, 12:25:22 AM
Glazunov might have composed one of my favorite pieces ever:

http://www.youtube.com/v/MeSvmhWVwxg


This is superb. Thank you for posting that ! :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Luke on September 18, 2012, 02:37:20 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 17, 2012, 07:29:27 AM
Hmmm. Very interesting, as I feel similarly. No wonder I always like and admire Brian (our Brian, not the composer that is). I have always felt that the Violin Concerto is one of Beethoven's few complete failures in a large form, its first movement an abortive attempt to reconcile lyricism with sonata form (a problem he solved far better in the 4th piano concerto and elsewhere), followed by a banal set of variations and a dull rondo finale. As for the Brahms, it opens like a house on fire with one of the most magnificent themes ever, but its sprawling construction fails to maintain momentum. The rondo is perhaps the most successful movement, but I literally find myself unable to remember any part of the slow movement after I've heard it.

Ah, but if the fact that it is unmemorable is held as evidence against a the quality of a piece, surely it falls down when someone else finds the same piece eminently memorable. Personally, the whole of the Brahms Piano Concerto 1 runs easily from start to finish in my head, second movement most certainly included (OTOH I can't do the same with many other pieces which I 'ought' to know like the back of my hand - they simply haven't imprinted themselves as deeply no matter how much I listen, but that is surely my fault, not theirs). I'm aware of issues that others point out when criticising this piece - that the second subject recapitulation is unconvincingly literal, for instance; that the B material of the rondo is weak - and on paper I can even agree with them (it is, TBH, a little embarrassing to see in the score quite how literal that second subject recap is after the tumult of the development).... but then in the event I simply don't feel any of these things when listening to the work. It just bowls me over.

Hello, Sfz, BTW - it's been a while! Hope you've been keeping well  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 18, 2012, 02:58:48 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 17, 2012, 11:16:58 AM
This is superb. Thank you for posting that ! :D

Seconded. Was rather lovely.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 03:55:00 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 18, 2012, 02:58:48 AM
Seconded. Was rather lovely.

Just a note:  I don't subscribe to either of the blunt opinions I recently posted, which served both to comply with the thread, and to underscore a rhetorical point.

Just a further note:  Obviously, of any music which is the brunt of some person or other's dislike, we can find many fans.  Seems to me that troubling to exercise that utterly obvious point is at odds with the thread.  But, hey: knock yourselves out
; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 02:52:29 PM
Here's a fresh one after a performance of Le Carnaval romain I've attended: Berlioz was a hack! >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2012, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 02:52:29 PM
Here's a fresh one after a performance of Le Carnaval romain I've attended: Berlioz was a hack! >:D

False.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 18, 2012, 04:29:13 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 02:52:29 PM
Here's a fresh one after a performance of Le Carnaval romain I've attended: Berlioz was a hack! >:D

It's a shame, it sounds as if the performance you attended did not properly do justice to a thrilling Berlioz piece. I hope the rest of the concert was better performed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 04:43:49 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 18, 2012, 04:29:13 PM
It's a shame, it sounds as if the performance you attended did not properly do justice to a thrilling Berlioz piece. I hope the rest of the concert was better performed.

Well, I do hope me & Hector might get along one day but I still haven't heard a note from him that wouldn't either bore me or make me shake my head in disapproval. Can't judge the performance but the concert concluded with a riveting blast through Ravel's La valse. It was the Czech radio symphony orchestra playing, lead by Sergey Smbatyan - a guy five years younger than me by the way and I'm 30.. maybe Berlioz requires a more mature conductor / listener?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 18, 2012, 04:49:10 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 04:43:49 PM
Well, I do hope me & Hector might get along one day but I still haven't heard a note from him that wouldn't either bore me or make me shake my head in disapproval. Can't judge the performance but the concert concluded with a riveting blast through Ravel's La valse. It was the Czech radio symphony orchestra playing, lead by Sergey Smbatyan - a guy five years younger than me by the way and I'm 30.. maybe Berlioz requires a more mature conductor / listener?

Damn those youngsters. It really hits hard when you start realizing you would be considered "old" in professional sports.

Does Symphonie Fantastique bore you? Or The Damnation of Faust?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2012, 05:02:53 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 04:43:49 PM
Well, I do hope me & Hector might get along one day but I still haven't heard a note from him that wouldn't either bore me or make me shake my head in disapproval. Can't judge the performance but the concert concluded with a riveting blast through Ravel's La valse. It was the Czech radio symphony orchestra playing, lead by Sergey Smbatyan - a guy five years younger than me by the way and I'm 30.. maybe Berlioz requires a more mature conductor / listener?

Apparently this orchestra/conductor admired Berlioz enough to at least take a crack at him. Which I don't think they would've done had they considered Berlioz a hack.

Same goes for the legions of musicians who've been performing/recording his music for 150 years, I'd say.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2012, 05:02:53 PMSame goes for the legions of musicians who've been performing/recording his music for 150 years, I'd say.

Hence my opinion being unpopular, although I've got some powerful allies on my side (Chopin & RVW)!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2012, 05:28:51 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 05:20:19 PM
Hence my opinion being unpopular, although I've got some powerful allies on my side (Chopin & RVW)!

An opinion which claims Berlioz is a "hack" isn't opinion. And I've more allies on my side that you. So there.


Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 05:20:19 PM
Hence my opinion being unpopular, although I've got some powerful allies on my side (Chopin &amp; RVW)!

Specious reasoning. What shall we say? Brahms was a talentless bastard -- I've got Tchaikovsky as an ally.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 07:04:03 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 18, 2012, 05:32:54 PM
Specious reasoning. What shall we say? Brahms was a talentless bastard -- I've got Tchaikovsky as an ally.

It wasn't meant to be reasoning at all. Sorry if I sounded THAT serious! But now that I've calmed down a little bit after the performance, I would call upon RVW for his take on Schoenberg: I don't hear what other people hear in his music but I blame myself.

So to alter my previous statement, Berlioz is a jolly good composer - I just don't like his music at all (and that still classifies as quite an unpopular opinion, right?).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 18, 2012, 07:32:53 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2012, 05:28:51 PM
An opinion which claims Berlioz is a "hack" isn't opinion.

Of course it is. 

PS Barely know a note of Berlioz, so can happily sit on the fence regarding his abilities.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2012, 08:46:34 PM
Quote from: orfeo on September 18, 2012, 07:32:53 PM
Of course it is.

Not in this universe. 


QuotePS Barely know a note of Berlioz, so can happily sit on the fence regarding his abilities.

Well, when your eyes are eventually opened to the goodness of Berlioz come back and give us a helping hand! ;D



Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Luke on September 19, 2012, 02:11:59 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 18, 2012, 07:04:03 PM
It wasn't meant to be reasoning at all. Sorry if I sounded THAT serious! But now that I've calmed down a little bit after the performance, I would call upon RVW for his take on Schoenberg: I don't hear what other people hear in his music but I blame myself.

So to alter my previous statement, Berlioz is a jolly good composer - I just don't like his music at all (and that still classifies as quite an unpopular opinion, right?).

I only fell in love with Berlioz when I heard the right pieces (for me) and thereby gained a glimpse of what (for me) is the mental image/aesthetic with which he 'clicks' best (for me). Reading the autobiography helped too. I realised that (for me) Berlioz is not (e.g.) huge orchestras, cackling witches, or Faust. For me he is the South, he is Italy, he is warm air and breezes, he is throbbing, ardent Early Romanticism - even at his most macabre there's nothing of Late Romantic decay or nostalgia in his music, just freshness, love and (for me) more than is the case with any other composer there is fragrance in Berlioz, the Southerly smells of sea and pine and flowers... This reads oddly, I know. I am trying to give an idea of the intangible thoughts and associations which Berlioz conjures up for me.

Change the details, the nouns and the adjectives, and the same, I think, goes with any composer who one truly loves. You just have to find your way in.

Anyway, the key pieces of Berlioz, for me, all heavily fragrance-laden, are things like the central songs of the Nuits d'ete, the song in which Herod recounts his dream in L'enfance du Christ (the perfume here becomes a hallucinatory incense), the first movement of the Symphonie Fantastique (especially the introduction), and above all the Scene d'amour from Romeo and Juliet (the balcony scene, the atmosphere of the darkened garden almost tangible, perfumed, we hear carousing voices in the distance before an extended love-dialogue which quivers with emotion...). Berlioz thought the Scene d'amour was his best piece, and I agree with him.

I'd add that not all Berlioz takes me into this world - and the pieces that don't are the ones I like less, with the exception of the Symphonie Funebre, which is Northern, cold, grey, shrill - and utterly wonderful. But I'm very sure that there is a way into loving these other pieces - I just haven't found it yet.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 19, 2012, 02:16:42 AM
Thank you, Luke, for this one gem of a post. Your take on, and description of, Berlioz's music are wonderful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 19, 2012, 02:26:44 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 19, 2012, 02:16:42 AM
Thank you, Luke, for this one gem of a post. Your take on, and description of, Berlioz's music are wonderful.

+1. A great post, as always. Good to see you here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 19, 2012, 02:27:12 AM
There goes Luke, raising the tone of the discourse again . . . .

Thanks for the post, fella!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Luke on September 19, 2012, 02:58:21 AM
A pleasure (genuinely - how good it feels to have time to think through writing a post for once). Thank you, guys!
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 19, 2012, 10:10:32 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 19, 2012, 02:11:59 AMThis reads oddly, I know.

Not at all. And it describes a very different Berlioz than I was reading about so far, which only bolsters my curiosity. Thank you!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 19, 2012, 06:20:36 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 18, 2012, 04:49:10 PMDoes Symphonie Fantastique bore you? Or The Damnation of Faust?

Yes.
Title: Re: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 06:26:27 PM
Quote from: Luke on September 19, 2012, 02:11:59 AM
I only fell in love with Berlioz when I heard the right pieces (for me) and thereby gained a glimpse of what (for me) is the mental image/aesthetic with which he 'clicks' best (for me). Reading the autobiography helped too. I realised that (for me) Berlioz is not (e.g.) huge orchestras, cackling witches, or Faust. For me he is the South, he is Italy, he is warm air and breezes, he is throbbing, ardent Early Romanticism - even at his most macabre there's nothing of Late Romantic decay or nostalgia in his music, just freshness, love and (for me) more than is the case with any other composer there is fragrance in Berlioz, the Southerly smells of sea and pine and flowers... This reads oddly, I know. I am trying to give an idea of the intangible thoughts and associations which Berlioz conjures up for me.

Change the details, the nouns and the adjectives, and the same, I think, goes with any composer who one truly loves. You just have to find your way in.

Anyway, the key pieces of Berlioz, for me, all heavily fragrance-laden, are things like the central songs of the Nuits d'ete, the song in which Herod recounts his dream in L'enfance du Christ (the perfume here becomes a hallucinatory incense), the first movement of the Symphonie Fantastique (especially the introduction), and above all the Scene d'amour from Romeo and Juliet (the balcony scene, the atmosphere of the darkened garden almost tangible, perfumed, we hear carousing voices in the distance before an extended love-dialogue which quivers with emotion...). Berlioz thought the Scene d'amour was his best piece, and I agree with him.

I'd add that not all Berlioz takes me into this world - and the pieces that don't are the ones I like less, with the exception of the Symphonie Funebre, which is Northern, cold, grey, shrill - and utterly wonderful. But I'm very sure that there is a way into loving these other pieces - I just haven't found it yet.

And suddenly, I feel the need to listen Berlioz. :) Great post, Luke. Well expressed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 19, 2012, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 19, 2012, 06:20:36 PM
Yes.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVH3ILaCRtNMnSPebnzo_re7GFr63Ul7LfHi60c4nOrrWTRvw3)

I'm crushing your head.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 06:51:46 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 19, 2012, 06:32:35 PM
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVH3ILaCRtNMnSPebnzo_re7GFr63Ul7LfHi60c4nOrrWTRvw3)

I'm crushing your head.

Love that Kids in the Hall sketch. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 19, 2012, 07:39:11 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2012, 08:46:34 PM
Not in this universe. 

Clearly, either every dictionary I can lay my hands on that has a definition of the word "opinion" has dropped through a wormhole, or this board is accessible in other dimensions.  Either way, the theoretical physicists will be thrilled.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 19, 2012, 08:36:11 PM
Quote from: orfeo on September 19, 2012, 07:39:11 PM
Clearly, either every dictionary I can lay my hands on that has a definition of the word "opinion" has dropped through a wormhole, or this board is accessible in other dimensions.  Either way, the theoretical physicists will be thrilled.

Dude, is it really necessary to spell it out for you as if this were kindergarden?



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 09:09:24 PM
It doesn't matter to me if somebody doesn't like a composer I enjoy. I've learned to quit fighting it and just accept that their music isn't for them. Sometimes it takes months and even years to understand and appreciate a composer. That said, while I did express my dislike for Mozart and Beethoven, I could never talk bad about my favorite Classical Era composer: JOSEPH HAYDN (AKA The Grand Master).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 19, 2012, 09:54:29 PM
Quote from: orfeo on September 19, 2012, 07:39:11 PM
Clearly, either every dictionary I can lay my hands on that has a definition of the word "opinion" has dropped through a wormhole, or this board is accessible in other dimensions.  Either way, the theoretical physicists will be thrilled.

NASA have already got their hands on it and are going to send it on the next mars mission.   :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 19, 2012, 10:15:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 09:09:24 PM
It doesn't matter to me if somebody doesn't like a composer I enjoy. I've learned to quit fighting it and just accept that their music isn't for them.

I feel exactly the same way. I don't give a hang about anyone else's preferences. But sometimes just the wrong phrase will push my buttons and I can't help but sound off.

I have my own list of composers/musicians who do zero for me but I'm just not interested in making a scene about it. Maybe I should...

Anyway, the poster with whom I had issue with has already cleared the air and I appreciated it (even though I didn't comment on it).

But now it seems a ghost poster has arrived to unearth the argument once again (oops, no punning intended). Oh, well...


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 10:20:16 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 19, 2012, 10:15:55 PM
I feel exactly the same way. I don't give a hang about anyone else's preferences. But sometimes just the wrong phrase will push my buttons and I can't help but sound off.

I have my own list of composers/musicians who do zero for me but I'm just not interested in making a scene about it. Maybe I should...

Anyway, the poster with whom I had issue with has already cleared the air and I appreciated it (even though I didn't comment on it).

But now it seems a ghost poster has arrived to unearth the argument once again (oops, no punning intended). Oh, well...

Once one hears Durufle's Requiem all opinions, cares, worries all melt away as you're transported to another time and place. This is what I like to do when there's a poster who just annoys the living crap out of me. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 19, 2012, 10:59:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 10:20:16 PM
Once one hears Durufle's Requiem all opinions, cares, worries all melt away as you're transported to another time and place. This is what I like to do when there's a poster who just annoys the living crap out of me. :)

I like!



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2012, 04:02:02 AM
And once you've heard a Pettersson symphony -- how bad could any other piece of music be, really?

(j/k)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 05:30:20 AM
I only like four fifths of the Symphonie fantastique. The central Scène aux champs puts me to sleep. Heard live, at a concert, it actually becomes a trial. The clock stands still. Since the music's program is meant to depict a narcotic-induced sleep, maybe it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. Works that way for me anyway  ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 05:44:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2012, 04:02:02 AM
And once you've heard a Pettersson symphony -- how bad could any other piece of music be, really?

(j/k)

Ouch! That would've hurt Sara (Lethe) no end...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 05:46:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 05:30:20 AM
I only like four fifths of the Symphonie fantastique. The central Scène aux champs puts me to sleep. Heard live, at a concert, it actually becomes a trial. The clock stands still. Since the music's program is meant to depict a narcotic-induced sleep, maybe it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. Works that way for me anyway  ;D

Say whaaaat? The oboe and the flute at the end... the timpani roll... that's pure bliss. I do hope Mrs. Rock doesn't share in this blasphemy.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2012, 05:46:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 05:30:20 AM
I only like four fifths of the Symphonie fantastique. The central Scène aux champs puts me to sleep. Heard live, at a concert, it actually becomes a trial. The clock stands still. Since the music's program is meant to depict a narcotic-induced sleep, maybe it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. Works that way for me anyway  ;D


Sarge

That's not far from where my ears where (viz. that movement) 30 years ago, Sarge!

It was the most dramatic of the reversals, when I first heard the Norrington recording.  As ever, YMMV.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:13:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2012, 05:46:49 AM
That's not far from where my ears where (viz. that movement) 30 years ago, Sarge!

It was the most dramatic of the reversals, when I first heard the Norrington recording.  As ever, YMMV.

Hah! Snorrington making someone wake up... now that's as unpopular as it gets...  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 06:26:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 05:46:07 AM
Say whaaaat? The oboe and the flute at the end... the timpani roll... that's pure bliss.

I guess I'm just not a pastoral kind of guy  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 05:46:07 AM
I do hope Mrs. Rock doesn't share in this blasphemy.  ;D

My opinion is unpopular in the Rock household too.

Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:13:32 AM
Hah! Snorrington making someone wake up... now that's as unpopular as it gets...  :D :D :D

It is. Norrington's LCP performance is my fave Fantastique. When I ventured into the Symphonie fantastique thread a few years ago, professing that opinion, I came under heavy fire, especially from O Mensch. Forget a woman scorned: Hell hath no fury like a Mensch dismissing Norrington :D  I had to make a quick tactical retreat in order to fight another day.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:30:50 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:13:32 AM
Hah! Snorrington making someone wake up... now that's as unpopular as it gets...  :D :D :D
;D

Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2012, 05:46:49 AM
It was the most dramatic of the reversals, when I first heard the Norrington recording.  As ever, YMMV.
Does that mean you liked Norrington? After enjoying his Mahler 1st (much to my surprise), my mind's more open to his efforts. 

Is it the Stuttgart or London Classical disc that you and Sarge like so much?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2012, 06:31:53 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:30:50 AM
Does that mean you liked Norrington?

Oui . . . although it is many years since last I heard this 'un.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 06:32:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2012, 05:46:49 AM
It was the most dramatic of the reversals, when I first heard the Norrington recording.  As ever, YMMV.

Norrington is the version that makes me the least drowsy. It helps that he lops off about three minutes compared to the usual timing. But even when listening to him, I usually skip the Scène and dive right into his marvelous Marche au supplice, his ponderous pace just perfect. (I can't stand fast marches; no one skips or sprints to the scaffold.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 06:39:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 09:09:24 PM
I could never talk bad about my favorite Classical Era composer: JOSEPH HAYDN (AKA The Grand Master).

He's my favorite too, and I prefer him over the early Beethoven. But mid to late...no. To me mid LvB was more often than not proto-Romantic, and it's hard for me to label the late era. It was beyond categorization imo.

The Gods:  J.S. Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Lennon and McCartney, Tony Iommi.

Demi-Gods: Vivaldi, Monteverdi, Schubert, Schumann, Verdi, Bartok, Schoenberg, Shostakovich, Puccini, Rossini, Weber, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Uli Jon Roth, Berlioz, Pete Townshend, Berlioz, Mendellsohn, Bruckner, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Chopin, Rachmaninoff.

Liszt is in between God and Demi-God.

Oh, the hate due.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:41:39 AM
Speaking of which: Marche au supplice is, to my ears, one of the jolliest and most triumphant music ever written. If it weren't for the program I'd never guessed it was about a beheading.  ;D (question for native English speakers: is the last sentence correct in respect to time concordance?)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:42:46 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 06:39:36 AM
Tony Iommi.

Tony who?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 06:45:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:42:46 AM
Tony who?  ;D

Guitarist and main composer for Black Sabbath. Massively influential, any Rock you hear today that's harder than, say, R.E.M. or Adele is influenced, whether directly or indirectly, by Sabbath.

Still awaiting the venomous dissension.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 06:46:29 AM
Waittasecond... you knew Florestan  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:49:13 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:41:39 AM
Speaking of which: Marche au supplice is, to my ears, one of the jolliest and most triumphant music ever written. If it weren't for the program I'd never guessed it was about a beheading.  ;D (question for native English speakers: is the last sentence correct in respect to time concordance?)
I'd never have guessed ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:50:18 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 06:45:16 AM
Still awaiting the venomous dissension.
I don't see Hendrix in your list. Or Stevie Ray.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:50:47 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 06:45:16 AM
Guitarist and main composer for Black Sabbath.

My, my... back in my twenties I used to like Black Sabbath but never knew the name of its members. Shame on me then...

BTW, here's an unpopular one: he who doesn't like hard rock and heavy metal until 30 has no taste; he who still likes them after 30 has no taste either.  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:51:24 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:49:13 AM
I'd never have guessed ;)

Thank you.
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 06:32:16 AM
Norrington is the version that makes me the least drowsy. It helps that he lops off about three minutes compared to the usual timing. But even when listening to him, I usually skip the Scène and dive right into his marvelous Marche au supplice, his ponderous pace just perfect. (I can't stand fast marches; no one skips or sprints to the scaffold.)

Sarge

The remedy is this Solti recording with CSO, not the best overall, but the most exciting and frightening, the brass is insane, a sub-woofer is highly recommended.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/by2umeqa.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 20, 2012, 06:56:04 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:41:39 AM
Speaking of which: Marche au supplice is, to my ears, one of the jolliest and most triumphant music ever written. If it weren't for the program I'd never guessed it was about a beheading.

Yes, there are unusual pieces that do that - in Rossinis Stabat Mater, the 'Cujus Animam Gementem' is usually sung with considerable gusto and liveliness by the tenor - I love it, but it seems in inappropriate soundworld for the sorrowful standing mother.

Quote(question for native English speakers: is the last sentence correct in respect to time concordance?)

As a qualified English language teacher, I can exclusively reveal to you that your 'time concordance' is...eh...I dunno, better ask Cato... :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:56:12 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:50:47 AM
BTW, here's an unpopular one: he who doesn't like hard rock and heavy metal until 30 19 has no taste; he who still likes them after 30 20 has no taste either.  ;D
Corrected for faulty time concordance ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:56:49 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 06:46:29 AM
Waittasecond... you knew Florestan  ;)

Scout's honor I did not. Anyway, welcome back! Long time no see...  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:58:24 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:56:12 AM
Corrected for faulty time concordance ;)

Hah! You do have a point but I tried to be tolerant...  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:58:24 AM
Hah! You do have a point but I tried to be tolerant...  ;D
Well, there are plenty of other things I don't get, either. No doubt Andy would thing it more than passing strange to see me rocking out to "Burning Down the House!"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2012, 07:23:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2012, 04:02:02 AM
And once you've heard a Pettersson symphony -- how bad could any other piece of music be, really?

(j/k)

:P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2012, 07:24:34 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
Well, there are plenty of other things I don't get, either. No doubt Andy would thing it more than passing strange to see me rocking out to "Burning Down the House!"

Oh, I don't think he'd bat a mascaraed eye! Not even if you boogied to "Willie the Pimp."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:26:41 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
Well, there are plenty of other things I don't get, either. No doubt Andy would thing it more than passing strange to see me rocking out to "Burning Down the House!"

I was a heavy metal enthusiast up until 25 (with Metallica and Manowar being my faves). Since then I gradually lost any interest in this kind of music. I will turn 40 this December and it's been perhaps more than 10 years that I've not heard a single heavy metal tune.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:28:22 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
Well, there are plenty of other things I don't get, either. No doubt Andy would thing it more than passing strange to see me rocking out to "Burning Down the House!"


Actually, that's kinda cool.

I guess I don't have any taste then, Florestan. I'm proud to be both a fan and accomplished composer of heavy metal music, I offer no apologies whatsoever.

Heavy metal music is just as significant and valid a form of Art as any other. Flame away.


Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:26:41 AM
I was a heavy metal enthusiast up until 25 (with Metallica and Manowar being my faves). Since then I gradually lost any interest in this kind of music. I will turn 40 this December and it's been perhaps more than 10 years that I've not heard a single heavy metal tune.

You're really missing out.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 20, 2012, 07:30:02 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
Well, there are plenty of other things I don't get, either. No doubt Andy would thing it more than passing strange to see me rocking out to "Burning Down the House!"

Anyone NOT rocking out to Talking Heads is.. strange!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:34:09 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:28:22 AM
I guess I don't have any taste then, Florestan. I'm proud to be both a fan and accomplished composer of heavy metal music, I offer no apologies whatsoever.

Hey, Andy!... I was just joking and pushing some buttons. You don't have to take me that seriously.  :D

Quote
Heavy metal music is just as significant and valid a form of Art as any other.

No argument from me whatsoever.  0:)

Quote
You're really missing out.

Perhaps. But non omnia possumus omnes (as a Catholic you surely know what I mean, don't you?)  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:36:56 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:34:09 AM
Hey, Andy!... I was just joking and pushing some buttons. You don't have to take me that seriously.  :D

No argument from me whatsoever.  0:)

Perhaps. But non omnia possumus omnes (as a Catholic you surely know what I mean, don't you?)  :D


I had a feeling you were picking on me you rascal :P. And yes I know what you mean my friend :).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:39:17 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:36:56 AM
I had a feeling you were picking on me you rascal :P. And yes I know what you mean my friend :).

0:)

Please point me to a contemporary heavy metal band that could rekindle my passion for the genre. I'd be more than willing to hear them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2012, 07:44:05 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 20, 2012, 07:30:02 AM
Anyone NOT rocking out to Talking Heads is.. strange!

Everybody, get in line!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:39:17 AM
0:)

Please point me to a contemporary heavy metal band that could rekindle my passion for the genre. I'd be more than willing to hear them.

Lyraka! ;)

Just kiddin'. If you liked early Metallica, the latest Testament "Dark Roots of the Earth" might be right up your alley. Manowar's last cool album was Gods of War, there's some irritating narration, but if you like some Wagner with your Manowar you're in for a treat.

More contemporary...boy that's tough, because Metal has become more extreme. Many of the bands I could reccomend you might be a little too heavy, though if you have an open mind and can deal with extreme vocals you can't go wrong with Nile "In Their Darkened Shrines".

For Progressive Heavy-ish Rock with killer guitar, you want Uli Jon Roth's "Metamorphosis of Vivaldi's Four Seasons" or even better his latest masterpiece, "Under a Dark Sky".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 07:46:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:34:09 AM
Perhaps. But non omnia possumus omnes (as a Catholic you surely know what I mean, don't you?)  :D

Does it mean, No ominous possums in this home?  I believe that's the Catholic blessing delivered after a house is exorcised. Thank god for high school Latin  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:47:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 07:46:05 AM
Does it mean, No ominous possums in this home?  Thank god for high school Latin  ;D

Sarge


In her Gothic phase, Jasmine would have quite welcomed ominous possums. Both cute and forboding...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2012, 08:12:11 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 06:53:47 AM
The remedy is this Solti recording with CSO, not the best overall, but the most exciting and frightening, the brass is insane, a sub-woofer is highly recommended.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/by2umeqa.jpg)

What a horrible looking cover! That should go to the worst LP/CD thread!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 06:53:47 AM
The remedy is this Solti recording with CSO, not the best overall, but the most exciting and frightening, the brass is insane, a sub-woofer is highly recommended.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/by2umeqa.jpg)

Do you mean Solti could make me appreciate the Scène aux champs?

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:45:09 AM
Lyraka! ;)

Just kiddin'. If you liked early Metallica, the latest Testament "Dark Roots of the Earth" might be right up your alley. Manowar's last cool album was Gods of War, there's some irritating narration, but if you like some Wagner with your Manowar you're in for a treat.

More contemporary...boy that's tough, because Metal has become more extreme. Many of the bands I could reccomend you might be a little too heavy, though if you have an open mind and can deal with extreme vocals you can't go wrong with Nile "In Their Darkened Shrines".

For Progressive Heavy-ish Rock with killer guitar, you want Uli Jon Roth's "Metamorphosis of Vivaldi's Four Seasons" or even better his latest masterpiece, "Under a Dark Sky".
Thanks. Will explore.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 08:22:36 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 07:47:42 AM

In her Gothic phase, Jasmine would have quite welcomed ominous possums. Both cute and forboding...

Reminds me of a recently seen TV show--an episode of Bones probably...or True Blood--in which a cute young woman was holding and petting a possum. Weird  :D


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 08:22:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2012, 08:12:11 AM
What a horrible looking cover! That should go to the worst LP/CD thread!

It was back in the 8-bit days.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2012, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 08:22:48 AM
It was back in the 8-bit days.

:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 09:14:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 07:46:05 AM
No ominous possums in this home
I'll have a bronze plaque made and hang it beside the front door.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 09:25:53 AM
So...the idea of a zombie possum would be posthumous ominous?


BWA-HA


sorry!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 09:27:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 08:18:42 AM
Do you mean Solti could make me appreciate the Scène aux champs?

Sarge

Well, maybe, I should have specified it's more for the whole piece. Certainly not much insane brass parts in champs, but the added intensity of the surrounding movements could make one appreciate the calm of champs a little more.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 10:46:43 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 09:27:38 AM
Well, maybe, I should have specified it's more for the whole piece. Certainly not much insane brass parts in champs, but the added intensity of the surrounding movements could make one appreciate the calm of champs a little more.

Thanks for clarifying. I was a bit confused...and maybe hoping a little that Solti had somehow, magically, turned that hazy pastoral into something "exciting and frightening" with insane brass  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2012, 11:21:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 10:46:43 AM
Thanks for clarifying. I was a bit confused...and maybe hoping a little that Solti had somehow, magically, turned that hazy pastoral into something "exciting and frightening" with insane brass  ;D

Sarge

Haha! Solti transcribed the entire third movement for two full brass ensembles, both on stage, and then one off-stage. Oh, and don't forget the 12 timpanists, scattered throughout the audience.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 20, 2012, 12:45:40 PM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 07:39:17 AM
0:)

Please point me to a contemporary heavy metal band that could rekindle my passion for the genre. I'd be more than willing to hear them.

I turned 20 some time ago, so haven't been listening to heavy metal lately  :P
Anyway - for prog metal, Opeth is very nice (although I don't know whether you can stand growling or not - not all of Opeth has it, and it's decreased in their more recent albums, IIRC)
Here's the bands vocalist/guitarist/composer Mikael Åkerfeldt and Porcupine Tree's (prog rock) Steven Wilson's project Storm Corrosion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=manW5v-AR7U
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 20, 2012, 09:25:53 AM
So...the idea of a zombie possum would be posthumous ominous?
BWA-HA
;D Now you're hanging upside down by your tail from MNDave's tree!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eyeresist on September 20, 2012, 05:54:42 PM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2012, 06:13:32 AMHah! Snorrington making someone wake up... now that's as unpopular as it gets...  :D :D :D

From what I'm heard of it, Norrington's Berlioz is terrific - such a shame I still don't like Berlioz :D


Re Metal, I would say prog is not the solution, it's the problem. There's another unpopular opinion for ya.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 20, 2012, 07:44:28 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 19, 2012, 08:36:11 PM
Dude, is it really necessary to spell it out for you as if this were kindergarden?

Yes.  Is it really necessary for you to say that an opinion you disagree with isn't just wrong, but not an opinion? That was just a completely absurd tack to take.  And you kept taking it even when challenged, for which you deserve all the sarcastic derision about wormholes you received.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 20, 2012, 09:15:55 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 10:46:43 AM
Thanks for clarifying. I was a bit confused...and maybe hoping a little that Solti had somehow, magically, turned that hazy pastoral into something "exciting and frightening" with insane brass  ;D

Sarge
There are two versions that may be of interest to you. I have not heard either one (but maybe soemeone here has). Both are often associated with the terms 'hot', 'molten', 'fiery', or something similar. They are Stokowski and Rozhdestvensky (Live Proms recording).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 20, 2012, 09:44:33 PM
Quote from: orfeo on September 20, 2012, 07:44:28 PM
Yes.  Is it really necessary for you to say that an opinion you disagree with isn't just wrong, but not an opinion? That was just a completely absurd tack to take.  And you kept taking it even when challenged, for which you deserve all the sarcastic derision about wormholes you received.

Sarcasm you say?

Anyhoo...what it amounts to is this:

I don't care what anyone thinks about Berlioz. Period. You can hate him, love him, lukewarm him, whatever.

But to call him a "hack" in the face of overwhelming evidence that he is NOT a hack is ignorant (no offense ;D). And just what evidence is that, you say?

A) A look at the number of musicians who endorse his music by performing it.

B) A look at the number of musicians who endorse his music by recording it.

C) The sum of A) and B) equals a long history of performing and recording by some of the biggest and brightest names in the
    classical biz.

D) His music shows no sign of losing its steam. In fact, the HIP movement thinks highly enough of his music to dig into it with
    enthusiasm.

E) Musicians aside, the market for Berlioz is such that since the inception of his music it's been popular enough that the listening
    public buys it. Either by collecting recordings or attending concerts.

F) And so on and so on....

Nothing about the above spells "hack". THAT'S what I objected to.

Like I said, the poster with whom I had issue with has already cleared the air (much appreciated). What exactly do you gain by continuing on with HIS argument that's already been resolved?!??


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 12:36:21 AM
Sure, okay, so it's an ignorant opinion. That's still an opinion.  If you go back and look, you will see that I didn't comment on your objection to "hack" (which I understood perfectly well the first time), I commented on your statement that an opinion wasn't an opinion.  THAT'S what I objected to.

And this is a message board.  If you don't want other people to contribute, use a private messaging system.

What I gain is the wild hope that the English language will continue to mean what it's generally accepted to mean, enabling communication to work in the future.  If I unilaterally decided that the word "bananas" referred to something the rest of the world called "oranges", you seem to be suggesting that everyone should just go along with my quirk and not query it.

If I started saying that trios should be called quartets, quartets should be called symphonies and symphonies should be called flerzigigs, and began posting across the forum accordingly, the reaction would be quite fascinating but I doubt very much that all the posters would just go "oh, he didn't say that to me personally so let's not get involved". Not least because every single new member would have to be taken aside to have all my bizarre posts about quartets, symphonies and flerzigigs decoded for them.

A message board is for the purpose of communication.  Communication is not furthered by randomly changing the accepted meaning of words when you feel like it.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 21, 2012, 02:22:43 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 12:36:21 AM
Sure, okay, so it's an ignorant opinion.

Thank you for conceding the point. Ignorant Opinions are over there, in the Pathos File.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on September 21, 2012, 03:17:20 AM
Hey this is a thread for posting unpopular opinions without getting the beat down.  Let's stop giving Orfeo a hard time.

Please.

:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 03:36:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2012, 02:22:43 AM
Thank you for conceding the point.

Never argued that point to begin with!

EDIT: Look, as much as people seem to be enjoying this conversation so much  ::) could you all go back to read page 30, see what it actually says at the point I became involved re Berlioz and then come back? Ta.

Maybe then we could move on to discussing how bloody boring Philip Glass is, or something.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2012, 03:46:42 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 03:36:34 AM
Never argued that point to begin with!

EDIT: Look, as much as people seem to be enjoying this conversation so much  ::) could you all go back to read page 30, see what it actually says at the point I became involved re Berlioz and then come back? Ta.

Maybe then we could move on to discussing how bloody boring Philip Glass is, or something.

I read what you said and you never called Berlioz a hack. That was an opinion offered by another member. Philip Glass is a bore. Yes, no doubt about it. :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2012, 03:51:15 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 03:36:34 AM
Maybe then we could move on to discussing how bloody boring Philip Glass is, or something.

How dare you, how dare you, how dare you, how dare you say that, how dare you say that,
The man, the man, the man is a, the man is a, the man is a genius, the man is a genius,
How dare you, how dare you, how dare you say that, how dare you say that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 03:52:45 AM
Glass in prose. VERY nice!  ;D

Walked into the classical section of a Sydney music shop once, and they were playing Einstein on the Beach quite loudly over the speakers.  It was a serious turn-off. I tried to flick through the racks for items of interest, but I gave up.  It was exactly like how they use light classical music to drive teenage hooligans away from bus and train stations, but shops aren't usually intending to drive away prospective customers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2012, 03:53:51 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2012, 03:51:15 AM
How dare you, how dare you, how dare you, how dare you say that, how dare you say that,
The man, the man, the man is a, the man is a, the man is a genius, the man is a genius,
How dare you, how dare you, how dare you say that, how dare you say that.

Greg, you, Greg, you, Greg, you are, Greg, you are, Greg, you are crazy. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2012, 04:03:20 AM
I'm surprised some haven't ripped some of my favorite composers yet. Like Tippett for example. He seems to be the "anti-composer" according to some journalists ::).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 05:00:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 21, 2012, 04:03:20 AM
I'm surprised some haven't ripped some of my favorite composers yet. Like Tippett for example. He seems to be the "anti-composer" according to some journalists ::).
Well, the thread is about unpopular opinions.  Not "opinions that are shared by many no matter how incorrect."   0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:03:35 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 21, 2012, 03:17:20 AM
Hey this is a thread for posting unpopular opinions without getting the beat down.  Let's stop giving Orfeo a hard time.

Mouth breathing. You've been here long enough to know this David.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:04:52 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2012, 03:51:15 AM
How dare you, how dare you, how dare you, how dare you say that, how dare you say that,
The man, the man, the man is a, the man is a, the man is a genius, the man is a genius,
How dare you, how dare you, how dare you say that, how dare you say that.

For anyone who says that Glass is a bore, I'd ask them what they've actually heard of his. Sames goes for Adams, who sometimes gets lumped in with him.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 05:20:07 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:04:52 AM
For anyone who says that Glass is a bore, I'd ask them what they've actually heard of his. Sames goes for Adams, who sometimes gets lumped in with him.

You won't find me doing any lumping.  I've not heard huge amounts of either of them, but Adams was interesting and Glass wasn't.

I've already mentioned involuntarily sampling Einstein on the Beach, but apart from that I wasn't exactly eager to note down precisely what I was hearing when encountering Mr. Glass.  Let's see... consulting Wikipedia list of compositions... I can definitely tell you I've heard at least 4 of the film scores and excerpts from another.  I know I've heard at least one or two other things, but heck, even the names aren't memorable.  I mean, Music in Fifths, Music in Similar Motion, Music in Twelve Parts?  Evocative!

What else do you suggest I subject myself to?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 05:24:05 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 05:00:39 AM
Well, the thread is about unpopular opinions.  Not "opinions that are shared by many no matter how incorrect."   0:)

You put the lie to your sidebar note, Dude... :D

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:24:52 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 05:20:07 AM
What else do you suggest I subject myself to?

I'd recommend any of his solo keyboard works, and also his symphonies. To be more specific: Symphony No. 8 and Metamorphosis and Etudes for solo keyboard.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 21, 2012, 05:27:36 AM
I'm shocked more people didn't come down on me about Tony Iommi. Less shocked as to Uli Jon Roth.

I should have mentioned George Clinton (Funkadelic) amongst the demi-gods.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 21, 2012, 05:31:13 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 05:20:07 AM
What else do you suggest I subject myself to?

I'm not a Glass fan either, but this is an attractive concerto:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/GlSchDoh.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 21, 2012, 05:32:12 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 21, 2012, 05:27:36 AM
I should have mentioned George Clinton (Funkadelic) amongst the demi-gods.

Nope. Still doesn't raise hackles. You'll just have to try harder, Andy  ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 05:45:07 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 05:20:07 AM
What else do you suggest I subject myself to?

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ku6KTsr86bg
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 05:50:29 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 05:45:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/Ku6KTsr86bg

It sounds like a Vivaldi concerto with most of the tunes and cadences taken out.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:51:42 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 05:50:29 AM
It sounds like a Vivaldi concerto with most of the tunes and cadences taken out.

You're a mighty quick judge.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 05:52:56 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:24:52 AM
I'd recommend any of his solo keyboard works, and also his symphonies. To be more specific: Symphony No. 8 and Metamorphosis and Etudes for solo keyboard.

I figured out that Metamorphosis is one of the other things I've already heard.  :-X
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 05:54:05 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:51:42 AM
You're a mighty quick judge.

Of the impression a piece of music gives me?  Why not?

It might take me a long, long time to delve into a piece of music that interest me (hello, Vagn Holmboe), but it doesn't take me that long to tell whether or not it interests me.  And there simply isn't enough time in the world to investigate all the classical composers and pop musicians that DO interest me, never mind the massively larger number of ones that DON'T.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:54:38 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 05:52:56 AM
I figured out that Metamorphosis is one of the other things I've already heard.  :-X

And if your post about the Violin Concerto is any clue, you probably listened to it but once, and judged it not to your liking. In a quick manner, of course.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 05:57:51 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:54:38 AM
And if your post about the Violin Concerto is any clue, you probably listened to it but once, and judged it not to your liking. In a quick manner, of course.

I'll set you up with my Tori Amos collection. Promise to listen to each album at least 5 times before commenting.   See you in October.

EDIT: What possible purpose is there in repeatedly listening to something that didn't spark my interest the first time?  I'm not a music reviewer.  It's not my job to objectively assess Glass' work for your edification.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:59:33 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 05:57:51 AM
I'll set you up with my Tori Amos collection. Promise to listen to each album at least 5 times before commenting.   See you in October.

Already love Tori Amos, so that would be quite a pleasure for me to sit through. Also, I don't care whether or not you like or dislike something, rather it simply demonstrates your unwillingness to let something sit before sitting in judgment of it. I'd wager that not even someone engorged in classical music, like Karl, could have settled into a judgment so swiftly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 06:03:40 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:59:33 AM
Already love Tori Amos, so that would be quite a pleasure for me to sit through. Also, I don't care whether or not you like or dislike something, rather it simply demonstrates your unwillingness to let something sit before sitting in judgment of it. I'd wager that not even someone engorged in classical music, like Karl, could have settled into a judgment so swiftly.

No, you are not asking me for my opinion about individual pieces.  You are asking me for my opinion ABOUT A COMPOSER.  I have heard at least a dozen different Glass pieces. At least.  NONE of them have made me think "oh hang on, there's something there that interests me".

That's all I'm looking for. The spark of interest.  And it simply isn't there.  The judgment is that there's no need to add Glass to the list of composers I'm interested in exploring.  Given how HUGE the list already is, I make absolutely no apology, none whatsoever, for repeating: I have heard Glass, quite a few times, and Glass doesn't interest me.  NOT "I have heard Glass' violin concerto, and Glass' violin concerto doesn't interest me".  That simply isn't how I operate.  If we're going to list interests, it's going to be composers, not composers' individual works.  If we're going to list likes/loves, THEN I'll talk about individual compositions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:04:04 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 05:57:51 AM
I'll set you up with my Tori Amos collection. Promise to listen to each album at least 5 times before commenting.   See you in October.

EDIT: What possible purpose is there in repeatedly listening to something that didn't spark my interest the first time?  I'm not a music reviewer.  It's not my job to objectively assess Glass' work for your edification.
You don't think.........it's kind of backwards to think "if something doesn't interest me the first time, why listen to it again"?  A second time through might reveal something that you didn't notice the first time through.  Similar to a 3rd time, 4th time.  You are missing a lot of great music if you only go by the first impression.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:05:28 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:03:40 AM
No, you are not asking me for my opinion about individual pieces.  You are asking me for my opinion ABOUT A COMPOSER.  I have heard at least a dozen different Glass pieces. At least.  NONE of them have made me think "oh hang on, there's something there that interests me".

I haven't asked for your opinion on anything.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:07:58 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:04:04 AM
You don't think.........it's kind of backwards to think "if something doesn't interest me the first time, why listen to it again"?  A second time through might reveal something that you didn't notice the first time through.  Similar to a 3rd time, 4th time.  You are missing a lot of great music if you only go by the first impression.

Indeed. It's why I still try and listen to Mozart's Symphonies, even though they have yet to do it for me yet.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 06:09:00 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:04:04 AM
You don't think.........it's kind of backwards to think "if something doesn't interest me the first time, why listen to it again"?  A second time through might reveal something that you didn't notice the first time through.  Similar to a 3rd time, 4th time.  You are missing a lot of great music if you only go by the first impression.

See above. I do NOT go by the first impression of composers.  Hearing samples of an individual work of a composer is simply a means, for me, of sampling a composer.

Any composer I am interested in, their individual works will get multiple listens.  If that wasn't the case, I most certainly would not have bought the big batch of Holmboe I just bought, because the vast majority of his works have not revealed their secrets on first listen.

In fact, I wouldn't have bought most of Tori Amos' albums - the musician I am most obsessed with!  Of her 12 main albums I would say I probably only found 2 or 3 instantly appealing.  I found several of them utterly bewildering, including the one I would now rate as the very finest.  So please don't get this notion that I "go by first impressions".  Before any composer or pop artist gets into my collection, they have been sampled and considered a very large number of times, and once they're in, I continue to look for the rewards from their work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 06:10:59 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:05:28 AM
I haven't asked for your opinion on anything.

No. You just asked what I, and others like me, had heard of Glass.  And now you're just going to tell me I'm listening to it wrong.

I did listen to Metamorphosis quite a few times, for the record, as it was on a CD that was lent to me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:12:34 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:10:59 AM
And now you're just going to tell me I'm listening to it wrong.

That's not what I said at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:13:22 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:54:38 AM
And if your post about the Violin Concerto is any clue, you probably listened to it but once, and judged it not to your liking. In a quick manner, of course.
Evaluating a 25-minute-long concerto from, what, 30 seconds of hearing? ...with a mind already prejudiced against it?  Shades of Paul Best! (You don't happen to think Beethoven was a hack, do you?) ;)

But thank you for being so candid. I always appreciate it when folks are so upfront about letting us know the worth of their opinions -- popular or not! (BTW, dismissing Glass as a bore is a very popular pastime.)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:14:01 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:07:58 AM
Indeed. It's why I still try and listen to Mozart's Symphonies, even though they have yet to do it for me yet.
Oh, you only need to listen to 39, 40, and 41.  POSSIBLY 25   8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:15:15 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:14:01 AM
Oh, you only need to listen to 39, 40, and 41.  POSSIBLY 25   8)

Already tried and done, multiple times by different orchestras and different conductors. It just hasn't clicked for me yet, but I'll keep on trying. I know I'll find that one that will unlock the door.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:15:45 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:12:34 AM
That's not what I said at all.
Of course it's not. But if you look carefully, you'll note that he didn't suggest you had said it, but rather that you would say it in the future. Rather consistent, wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:54:38 AM
And if your post about the Violin Concerto is any clue, you probably listened to it but once, and judged it not to your liking. In a quick manner, of course.

So this WASN'T criticising my method of listening?

Okay then.

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:13:22 AM
Evaluating a 25-minute-long concerto from, what, 30 seconds of hearing? ...with a mind already prejudiced against it?  Shades of Paul Best! (You don't happen to think Beethoven was a hack, do you?) ;)

Where did you randomly pluck the figure of 30 seconds from?  You posted a Youtube clip that was over 6 minutes long.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:17:09 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:15:45 AM
Of course it's not. But if you look carefully, you'll note that he didn't suggest you had said it, but rather that you would say it in the future. Rather consistent, wouldn't you say?

Well I am a straw dog, as my Professor would say.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:21:37 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
So this WASN'T criticising my method of listening?

Okay then.

Where did you randomly pluck the figure of 30 seconds from?  You posted a Youtube clip that was over 6 minutes long.
is 6 minutes really enough time to judge whether you like a piece or not?  If yes, how does one know the initial attraction of a piece will maintain its shine through multiple listenings?  If no, how can one possibly know, in one 6 minute listen, that you wouldn't find the music interesting in the future?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:24:00 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
So this WASN'T criticising my method of listening?

Critical of your judgment.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:31:08 AM
I think I may have said this previously in this thread, in a more blunt and uneducated fashion, but I do not at all care for Wagner's operas.  I find nothing in them that rewards me*. 

That said, I do appreciate his theories on opera and agree with most of them.  Don't exactly know why it doesn't translate into me liking the music.

*Statement taken at 10:30 AM on September 21st 2012.  The poster has a right to change his mind at any point with no penalties.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 06:36:23 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:21:37 AM
is 6 minutes really enough time to judge whether you like a piece or not?  If yes, how does one know the initial attraction of a piece will maintain its shine through multiple listenings?  If no, how can one possibly know, in one 6 minute listen, that you wouldn't find the music interesting in the future?

If it's a 6 minute piece, I would have thought 6 minutes was the perfect amount of time for gaining an impression of the piece! (EDIT: Especially if hearing it live.  I'm now imagining a concert where the orchestra plays the piece multiple times in case the audience didn't 'get it' the first time.)

If yes: I don't, but we're talking about interest, not liking, and it's extremely rare for something to stop being of interest even if I don't necessarily really like it.

If no: I don't.  But again, you're talking about a piece of music, and I'm primarily talking about an entire body of work.  If I don't find my first encounter with a composer/pop artist interesting, but I hear another piece and find it of interest, I am highly like to go back and listen to that first work again.

The idea that I stick entirely to what I alreadly like is highly amusing, simply because it's so massively far from the truth. I'm currently looking at buying the music of 6 different composers.  Two of them are composers I own no CDs for and know very little of their music.  Three of them are composers I only own a single CD for.  The sixth - Liszt - is a composer for whom I own just 3 CDs (Annees de pelerinage), who isn't actually a favourite, who I have to really pay attention to and knuckle down with to get the most out of his pieces, but who interests me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2012, 06:37:56 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 05:04:52 AM
For anyone who says that Glass is a bore, I'd ask them what they've actually heard of his. Sames goes for Adams, who sometimes gets lumped in with him.

I a little late to this party, but I agree here. I'm bias when it comes to Glass and his music, been an avid listener for 20 years now, but when there is a negative comment about his music I tend to always ask the pieces they've heard. Glass from the seventies is quite different from Glass of the past ten years. Still similar to the core, but there have been many elements and layers that have appeared later in his career. Music in Fifths and Symphony No.9, written decades apart, are on different planes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 06:38:31 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 06:24:00 AM
Critical of your judgment.

*Looks at title of the thread*

Ah yes. Sorry. Missed the memo.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:51:06 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:36:23 AM
If it's a 6 minute piece, I would have thought 6 minutes was the perfect amount of time for gaining an impression of the piece! (EDIT: Especially if hearing it live.  I'm now imagining a concert where the orchestra plays the piece multiple times in case the audience didn't 'get it' the first time.)

If yes: I don't, but we're talking about interest, not liking, and it's extremely rare for something to stop being of interest even if I don't necessarily really like it.

If no: I don't.  But again, you're talking about a piece of music, and I'm primarily talking about an entire body of work.  If I don't find my first encounter with a composer/pop artist interesting, but I hear another piece and find it of interest, I am highly like to go back and listen to that first work again.

The idea that I stick entirely to what I alreadly like is highly amusing, simply because it's so massively far from the truth. I'm currently looking at buying the music of 6 different composers.  Two of them are composers I own no CDs for and know very little of their music.  Three of them are composers I only own a single CD for.  The sixth - Liszt - is a composer for whom I own just 3 CDs (Annees de pelerinage), who isn't actually a favourite, who I have to really pay attention to and knuckle down with to get the most out of his pieces, but who interests me.
That is not a particularly "new" concept.  I am thinking of Schoenberg and co (I believe it was them) holding concerts to that effect.  Also, 6 minutes really is not that long of a time.  A second listening right away might reveal something new that you didn't notice, or confirm something that you didn't and didn't particularly care for.  But 6 minutes of any music is not enough time to determine if you truly are interested in a piece or not.  Chances are, you became interested in the music you like after multiple listenings to the same piece/artist and the first listening was merely a gateway in.  Besides, if you dismiss a piece or a composer after 6 minutes and don't listen to said composer again, how do you know you won't like the composer in 6 years?
But interests do change, usually more often than one might think.  You might find composer/concept interesting at different points of your life.  Again, how is 6 minutes enough to judge this?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 21, 2012, 06:55:15 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:51:06 AM
But interests do change, usually more often than one might think.  You might find composer/concept interesting at different points of your life.  Again, how is 6 minutes enough to judge this?
And even at different times of day.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 07:01:54 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:51:06 AM
That is not a particularly "new" concept.  I am thinking of Schoenberg and co (I believe it was them) holding concerts to that effect.  Also, 6 minutes really is not that long of a time.  A second listening right away might reveal something new that you didn't notice, or confirm something that you didn't and didn't particularly care for.  But 6 minutes of any music is not enough time to determine if you truly are interested in a piece or not.  Chances are, you became interested in the music you like after multiple listenings to the same piece/artist and the first listening was merely a gateway in.  Besides, if you dismiss a piece or a composer after 6 minutes and don't listen to said composer again, how do you know you won't like the composer in 6 years?
But interests do change, usually more often than one might think.  You might find composer/concept interesting at different points of your life.  Again, how is 6 minutes enough to judge this?

Whatever Schoenberg might have done, this has an air of unreality about it.  Are you seriously suggesting that if you go to a concert, and hear a piece you've never heard before, and the piece is 6 minutes long, you're not allowed to have an opinion of what you thought of the piece?

Again, you haven't read what I said.  Where on earth do you get the idea that I have only listened to 6 minutes of Philip Glass?I've even doubled that timeframe tonight, AFTER posting my initial comment about not finding the music of Philip Glass interesting.  How much Philip Glass listening am I required to clock up before having an opinion on Philip Glass?  I'm sure I've got at least 2-3 hours under my belt by now.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:15:56 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
So this WASN'T criticising my method of listening?
No. Hearing brief samples is not the same as listening ... a distinction that I hope is more obvious than the point Don was trying to make about "opinions." (Clearly he had in mind the distinction between an opinion, which is at least somewhat informed, and a prejudice, which requires no knowledge whatsoever.)

Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
Where did you randomly pluck the figure of 30 seconds from?  You posted a Youtube clip that was over 6 minutes long.
And almost exactly 5 minutes after I posted it, you posted your reaction. There's no way you could have heard the whole clip, let alone the entire concerto. And I imagine that at least a minute or two elapsed after my posting before you went to the site, thread, post, sample, and started listening. And then that you might have thought about what you'd heard for at least 30 seconds or so before taking a minute or two to post your reaction.

Was my guess at 30 seconds too generous? ;)

And there's probably no way you would know this, but the 30 seconds are also an homage to a former very active member here (and on Amazon) noted for reviewing music and recordings based on the 30-second sound clips accompanying Amazon's product listings.

Most of us eventually gave up expecting him to be rational enough to even want to understand why some folks regard that as an inadequate basis for forming opinions (though not for expressing prejudices). Of course, no one ever would have mistaken him for the brightest candle on the cake ... other than himself, of course (an all too common and very human failing).

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on September 21, 2012, 07:26:52 AM
I have a composer I too am interested in but 'cannot get'  Olivier Messiaen.  I am interested in him because I heard The Turangalila Symphony in 1990, thought it dreadful and worth another listen for that reason, to find something I liked in it.  I don't know what I liked in it, but found something in the structure and purpose of his musical designs which I decided was somehow profound in the grand scheme of things, and from time to time I still listen to him.  His music does not resonate with me whatsoever, but I think the sentiment of his music keeps making me go back.
So I agree that even if a composer is not your cup of tea, you can still be interested in their works even in a way you might not quite understand yourself.  It would be unlikely for any Classical music fan to completely dismiss a composer in one 6 minuite hearing, never to be heard again (!), but I do agree that a good ear can make initial judgements about the style of a piece and what the composer has put into it, and access that when he comes across another work or works by the same composer for comparision with new listenings...the other end of the spectrum, one can like a new piece or 'lilt' of a composer so much that you must get everything they did, immediately and urgently (as happened to me with Salinen, Rangstrom, Atterberg and Arvo Part.)
Aye, it's a funny business this music lark.   :-\
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:28:53 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:31:08 AM
I think I may have said this previously in this thread, in a more blunt and uneducated fashion, but I do not at all care for Wagner's operas.  I find nothing in them that rewards me*. 

That said, I do appreciate his theories on opera and agree with most of them.  Don't exactly know why it doesn't translate into me liking the music.
I suspect it's because he was a much better theorist than practitioner, and much better composer than dramatist.

It's a challenge to set aside all the hype (which began with Wagner himself, certainly one of the greatest narcissists in human history) about Wagner's music dramas (especially The Ring) being the greatest thing since indoor plumbing ... and to force yourself time and again to suspend disbelief ... and to drink enough coffee! ... to hang in there enough to appreciate the gold left in the pan after sluicing out all the sand.

Just remember that even his severest critics recognized that there are moments of magnificence among the quarter-hours of drudgery. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2012, 07:42:01 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:15:56 AM
No. Hearing brief samples is not the same as listening ... a distinction that I hope is more obvious than the point Don was trying to make about "opinions." (Clearly he had in mind the distinction between an opinion, which is at least somewhat informed, and a prejudice, which requires no knowledge whatsoever.)

Not to fuel the fire but a heartfelt thanks Dave for doing a better job than I at making this point clear. Unfortunately I let frustration get the better of me. :)



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 07:44:24 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:15:56 AM
And almost exactly 5 minutes after I posted it, you posted your reaction. There's no way you could have heard the whole clip, let alone the entire concerto. And I imagine that at least a minute or two elapsed after my posting before you went to the site, thread, post, sample, and started listening. And then that you might have thought about what you'd heard for at least 30 seconds or so before taking a minute or two to post your reaction.

You can imagine and surmise a lot of things, but of the three propositions listed here, only one is actually correct.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 21, 2012, 07:52:19 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 20, 2012, 09:15:55 PM
There are two versions that may be of interest to you. I have not heard either one (but maybe soemeone here has). Both are often associated with the terms 'hot', 'molten', 'fiery', or something similar. They are Stokowski and Rozhdestvensky (Live Proms recording).

Thank you for the recommendation. And thanks too to Monkey Greg (Solti) and Karl (in a PM offering Munch/Boston). I don't know whether any of these versions would be revelation, making Scène aux champs more interesting than the others I've heard. I'll keep them all in mind for future purchases. For reference, here are the Symphonie fantastiques I own already:


MUNCH           BUDAPEST SO
BERNSTEIN      O NATIONAL FRANCE
KARAJAN           BERLIN
DAVIS           CONCERTGEBOUW
DAVIS           LSO
MARTINON       O NATIONAL OTRF
NORRINGTON   LONDON CLASSICAL
MAAZEL           CLEVELAND
GARDINER   O REVOLUTIONNAIRE ET ROMANTIQUE

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 21, 2012, 07:56:22 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 06:30:50 AM
Does that mean you liked Norrington? After enjoying his Mahler 1st (much to my surprise), my mind's more open to his efforts. 

Is it the Stuttgart or London Classical disc that you and Sarge like so much?

Sorry I left this question hanging, Dave!

The London Classical Players disc . . . in fact, as a result of these reminiscences, I've ordered it back in . . . keen to revisit it after all these years . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 07:56:48 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 07:01:54 AM
How much Philip Glass listening am I required to clock up before having an opinion on Philip Glass?  I'm sure I've got at least 2-3 hours under my belt by now.[/color]

The standard is a minimum of 20 hours within a one week period. 

Seriously, I advise you to pay as little attention as possible to the criticisms you have been receiving.  Life's too short to keep listening to stuff you don't appreciate.

As for me, Berlioz is a winner and Glass isn't part of my world.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 07:58:00 AM
Quote from: PaulR on September 21, 2012, 06:31:08 AM
I think I may have said this previously in this thread, in a more blunt and uneducated fashion, but I do not at all care for Wagner's operas.  I find nothing in them that rewards me*. 

I was of very much the same opinion, until I took a good long break from them, and then it hit me like lightening while listening to the first disc of The Ring conducted by Karajan.

Quote from: Scots John on September 21, 2012, 07:26:52 AM
I have a composer I too am interested in but 'cannot get'  Olivier Messiaen.  I am interested in him because I heard The Turangalila Symphony in 1990, thought it dreadful and worth another listen for that reason, to find something I liked in it.  I don't know what I liked in it, but found something in the structure and purpose of his musical designs which I decided was somehow profound in the grand scheme of things, and from time to time I still listen to him.  His music does not resonate with me whatsoever, but I think the sentiment of his music keeps making me go back.

For me, the best entrance into Messiaen is his solo organ pieces. Just mind-blowing. I often have said that I prefer them to the works of Bach, without denigrating him in the slightest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 07:58:58 AM
Quote from: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 07:56:48 AM
The standard is a minimum of 20 hours within a one week period. 

Seriously, I advise you to pay as little attention as possible to the criticisms you have been receiving.  Life's too short to keep listening to stuff you don't appreciate.

Oh, the sarcasm of bulldog. I don't care how much you listen too or how little. I simply want you to judge less swiftly, so he can at least get a fair trial.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 21, 2012, 08:02:16 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 07:58:58 AM
Oh, the sarcasm of bulldog. I don't care how much you listen too or how little. I simply want you to judge less swiftly, so he can at least get a fair trial.

Given that the first time I heard the music of Philip Glass would have been 15-20 years ago, it is not as if I uttered his name in this thread in undue haste!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 08:03:44 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 07:58:58 AM
Oh, the sarcasm of bulldog. I don't care how much you listen too or how little. I simply want you to judge less swiftly, so he can at least get a fair trial.

A fair trial?  This isn't a court of law.  Orfeo has done his listening of Glass and isn't impressed.  Maybe in a few years he will give the Glass Man another try, maybe not.  Who the hell cares?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:04:56 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 21, 2012, 08:02:16 AM
Given that the first time I heard the music of Philip Glass would have been 15-20 years ago, it is not as if I uttered his name in this thread in undue haste!

Perfectly understandable, and even I will assent that some of his music can be tiring and trying to listen too, but I do think he has some really good moments. This is the piece of his I listen to the most:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3FniHgiyaTY

But I also love that sort of structure in a keyboard work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:05:23 AM
Quote from: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 08:03:44 AM
A fair trial?  This isn't a court of law.  Orfeo has done his listening of Glass and isn't impressed.  Maybe in a few years he will give the Glass Man another try, maybe not.  Who the hell cares?

This is a classical music forum. It's all serious business.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:07:21 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 21, 2012, 08:06:44 AM
The same could be said of Richard Wagner.  Another composer I don't listen to.

I definitely would have agreed with this assessment a month or so ago.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:05:23 AM
This is a classical music forum. It's all serious business.

Only when I say it is. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:07:21 AM
I definitely would have agreed with this assessment a month or so ago.

Hell, I agree with it now!  I mean; after "The Ride of the Valkyries" whaddya got?   ::)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:25:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 08:24:50 AM
Hell, I agree with it now!  I mean; after "The Ride of the Valkyries" whaddya got?   ::)

8)

Effing dwarves!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 08:26:41 AM
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:25:23 AM
Effing dwarves!

There you are. :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on September 21, 2012, 08:35:27 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 08:26:41 AM
There you are. :)

8)

It's also why The Hobbit will be better than the first LotR films put together.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 23, 2012, 05:29:40 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 20, 2012, 05:54:42 PMRe Metal, I would say prog is not the solution, it's the problem. There's another unpopular opinion for ya.

And one that I would defend 'til my dying breath.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 23, 2012, 05:35:20 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 20, 2012, 05:54:42 PM



Re Metal, I would say prog is not the solution, it's the problem. There's another unpopular opinion for ya.


I think that labelling something as "Progressive" in Rock (and all its subgenres) tends to be a bit pretentious in itself. As if Rock in general is so (in a snotty voice) "un-Progressive". Plus it's a bit of an oxymoron, the more Progressive something gets, the less it Rocks, at least to my ears. And I have heard a whole lot of it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Corey on September 23, 2012, 05:57:54 AM
Quote from: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 07:56:48 AM
Glass isn't part of my world.

I find Glass (and Reich) really helpful when I'm working. It seems to block out all other distractions so I can concentrate on the work — which is not meant to be a backhanded compliment. Music has its uses.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on September 23, 2012, 06:00:51 AM
Quote from: Corey on September 23, 2012, 05:57:54 AM
I find Glass (and Reich) really helpful when I'm working. It seems to block out all other distractions so I can concentrate on the work — which is not meant to be a backhanded compliment. Music has its uses.


I agree, Corey. I'm also a Glass enthusiast, though to a limited degree. Some of his music doesn't do too much for me. I also liked and learned something from the reality tv-esque documentary I saw on him on Netflix awhile back.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2012, 06:19:05 AM
I find Philip Glass to be a great film score composer, the repetitiveness of the arpeggios and themes effectively connect scenes and characters together, rather than having completely separate motifs for each scene or location. Take for example The Hours, the plot spans decades apart following three to four chracters, but Glass' music assists in acting, along with a brilliant script and direction, as a bond that effortlessly segues these elements.
Also look for this trait in Kundan and in the re-scoring of old classics such as Dracula.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 06:24:04 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2012, 06:19:05 AM
I find Philip Glass to be a great film score composer, the repetitiveness of the arpeggios and themes effectively connect scenes and characters together, rather than having completely separate motifs for each scene or location. Take for example The Hours, the plot spans decades apart following three to four chracters, but Glass' music assists in acting, along with a brilliant script and direction, as a bond that effortlessly segues these elements.
Also look for this trait in Kundan and in the re-scoring of old classics such as Dracula.
I didn't see The Hours but otherwise agree. The score for The Illusionist was terrific.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2012, 06:26:35 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 06:24:04 AM
I didn't see The Hours but otherwise agree. The score for The Illusionist was terrific.

Ah, another good example, thanks, David.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on September 25, 2012, 05:41:09 AM
I like Glass (two of his operas - Satyagraha and Akhnaten - are among my favourite pieces of music) but I never understood the rage about The Hours. It's nice to listen to (as Glass usually is, if you're not allergic to his method) but I find it pretty dull. When it comes to his movie scores, I prefer the -qatsi stuff. Kundun is great as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 25, 2012, 08:27:20 AM
[drop_nade]Mozart is outdated music for old people.
Mozart sucks.
Shostakovich is for the younger.
Shostakovich rocks.[/drop]

Honestly I experienced, old grand daddies love Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Vienna, blah... whereas Shostakovich, Braga Santos, Pettersson [insert other hypes here] is for the younger.

What, I'm generalizing? Good!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2012, 08:35:00 AM
What's the divide for those of us who admire and enjoy Shostakovich and Braga Santos, but who think Pettersson was a bathetic putz? ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 25, 2012, 08:36:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2012, 08:35:00 AM
What's the divide for those of us who admire and enjoy Shostakovich and Braga Santos, but who think Pettersson was a bathetic putz? ; )

:P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2012, 11:44:26 PM
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 25, 2012, 08:27:20 AM
[drop_nade]Mozart is outdated music for old people.
Mozart sucks.
Shostakovich is for the younger.
Shostakovich rocks.[/drop]

Honestly I experienced, old grand daddies love Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Vienna, blah... whereas Shostakovich, Braga Santos, Pettersson [insert other hypes here] is for the younger.

No wonder. Maturity comes with age is valid also for good taste...  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on September 26, 2012, 12:07:11 PM
Duke Ellington is overrated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2012, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: Concord on September 26, 2012, 12:07:11 PM
Duke Ellington is overrated.

Classical? Jazz? Or overall overrated?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Concord on September 26, 2012, 02:07:28 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2012, 12:52:43 PM
Classical? Jazz? Or overall overrated?

He's long been a favoirite of jazz critics, but he's also become the darling of classical types who want to promote his work as great American music "beyond category."  But I find his work rather bland and uninteresting, no matter how you approach it. I agree with Rudi Blesh's assessment: "The laurels of Stravinsky and Hindemith are safe, and, as for jazz, the Duke never played it." 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 26, 2012, 02:17:28 PM
Quote from: Concord on September 26, 2012, 12:07:11 PM
Duke Ellington is overrated.
That's how I felt at 18.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2012, 03:49:07 PM
Quote from: Concord on September 26, 2012, 02:07:28 PM
He's long been a favoirite of jazz critics, but he's also become the darling of classical types who want to promote his work as great American music "beyond category."  But I find his work rather bland and uninteresting, no matter how you approach it. I agree with Rudi Blesh's assessment: "The laurels of Stravinsky and Hindemith are safe, and, as for jazz, the Duke never played it."

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 26, 2012, 02:17:28 PM
That's how I felt at 18.

Interesting, I will admit I don't know much of his outlet, but his name is all over the history books. Give me Satchmo any day, Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, or even Cab Calloway.  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 29, 2012, 10:45:29 AM
I hate, hate, hate Orff's "Carmina Burana."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Drasko on September 29, 2012, 10:50:10 AM
"Wagner's music is fungal. I think Wagner is a fungus. It's a sort of unnatural growth. It's parasitic in a sense – on its models, on its material. His material doesn't grow symphonically – it doesn't grow through a musical logic – it grows parasitically."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/sep/28/composer-thomas-ades
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 11:13:54 AM
Quote from: Drasko on September 29, 2012, 10:50:10 AM
"Wagner's music is fungal. I think Wagner is a fungus. It's a sort of unnatural growth. It's parasitic in a sense – on its models, on its material. His material doesn't grow symphonically – it doesn't grow through a musical logic – it grows parasitically."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/sep/28/composer-thomas-ades
Unpopular?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 30, 2012, 10:44:28 AM
Quote from: Drasko on September 29, 2012, 10:50:10 AM
"Wagner's music is fungal. I think Wagner is a fungus. It's a sort of unnatural growth. It's parasitic in a sense – on its models, on its material. His material doesn't grow symphonically – it doesn't grow through a musical logic – it grows parasitically."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/sep/28/composer-thomas-ades

>:(

These words are not very new to me; Nietzsche said: "Wagner is not a syllogism, but a disease".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 30, 2012, 11:10:03 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 11:13:54 AM
Unpopular?

+ 1
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Carolus on September 30, 2012, 01:34:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 29, 2012, 10:45:29 AM
I hate, hate, hate Orff's "Carmina Burana."
So, you disagree with the Nazis. They love it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 30, 2012, 06:48:39 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2012, 03:49:07 PM
Interesting, I will admit I don't know much of his outlet, but his name is all over the history books. Give me Satchmo any day, Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, or even Cab Calloway.  8)

If we're talking about big bands, then give me Stan Kenton's big band over them all. Beautiful harmonies and arrangements. The musicians Kenton chose were always top-notch. Some incredible players like Lee Konitz, Art Pepper, Shelly Manne, Shorty Rogers, Conte Candoli, Zoot Sims, Lucky Thompson, Stan Levey, etc. have been members of his big band.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Corey on October 01, 2012, 04:52:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 29, 2012, 10:45:29 AM
I hate, hate, hate Orff's "Carmina Burana."

What's to dislike about children singing "I am aflame with love" in Medieval Latin?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on October 01, 2012, 07:55:51 AM
    Tommy's ridiculous comments about Wagner show that he is suffering from A.D.E.S.  I don't know what that stands for, but it's a terrible pun on AIDS. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on October 01, 2012, 09:47:55 AM
Country Western Music.  Absolute pish most of it.  And over the years, the boundaries of the Country music  soundworld has been stretched out a little bit to encompass more pish which doesn't sound like Country - ala Classical Music with its dreadful 'crossover' genre.  County music is lonely Hillbilly singin'.  There is little about horses and mountains and wild things - 'country' music is all about something that is lost, usually a woman or a sense of place.  It's melodies are so simple, a six year old child could be the new Merle Haggard.  Even in Scotland we have nutcases who don ten gallon hats, holsters and lassoos for a big night out of Country Singin'.
With the help of a resurrected Bruno Walter, I would like to corral all them rednecks and their stetson hats in the mountains of North Dakota, fence them off Wintertime and leave them there - that might give them a sense of what they should be singing about.  There is nothing in Country Music that delights, unless you are of the mindset to get drunk and cry or jump in a vat of boiling porrige.   :o >:(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
Yeah. Here's some of that crap country & western music (which originated with the folk music of the Scottish and Scots-Irish settlers in Appalachia):

http://www.youtube.com/v/HFeB7zTGesk
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on October 01, 2012, 11:14:59 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
Yeah. Here's some of that crap country & western music (which originated with the folk music of the Scottish and Scots-Irish settlers in Appalachia):

http://www.youtube.com/v/HFeB7zTGesk

Darn 'em Scottish rednecks.  I might have known we were somehow responsible for it.  Typical.  Next thing you know Buicks, Penicillin, refrigerators, telephones, televisions,  and all manner of other popular things will be blamed on the Scots too.
>:(
***puts stetson on, fixes holster, adjusts kilt, leaves room***
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 11:29:47 AM
Quote from: Scots John on October 01, 2012, 11:14:59 AM
***puts stetson on, fixes holster, adjusts kilt, leaves room***
;D
Perhaps that explains why there are no Scottish cowboys!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on October 02, 2012, 01:01:31 AM
Quote from: Scots John on October 01, 2012, 09:47:55 AM
Country Western Music.  Absolute pish most of it.  And over the years, the boundaries of the Country music  soundworld has been stretched out a little bit to encompass more pish which doesn't sound like Country - ala Classical Music with its dreadful 'crossover' genre.  County music is lonely Hillbilly singin'.  There is little about horses and mountains and wild things - 'country' music is all about something that is lost, usually a woman or a sense of place.  It's melodies are so simple, a six year old child could be the new Merle Haggard.  Even in Scotland we have nutcases who don ten gallon hats, holsters and lassoos for a big night out of Country Singin'.
With the help of a resurrected Bruno Walter, I would like to corral all them rednecks and their stetson hats in the mountains of North Dakota, fence them off Wintertime and leave them there - that might give them a sense of what they should be singing about.  There is nothing in Country Music that delights, unless you are of the mindset to get drunk and cry or jump in a vat of boiling porrige.   :o >:(

Now I know how you folks must have felt when I called Berlioz a hack.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 02, 2012, 01:05:48 AM
Quote from: Scots John on October 01, 2012, 09:47:55 AM
There is little about horses and mountains and wild things - 'country' music is all about something that is lost, usually a woman or a sense of place. 

Why would that upset you? It only proves that the cowboys are sensitive souls.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: John Copeland on October 05, 2012, 09:00:53 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
I prefer Prokofiev to Shostakovich.

I share this preference, but I do not understand it.    :-\  Maybe it's not unpopular...  if it is, there must be something wrong with us.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 09:09:45 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
I prefer Prokofiev to Shostakovich.
Me, too--massively. (So this opinion is not unpopular with me! ;) )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
I prefer Prokofiev to Shostakovich.

Don't really see how this opinion could be unpopular. I love Prokofiev's music and while Shostakovich is my numero uno, I rate Prokofiev very highly. Definitely a favorite.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 10:12:27 AM
Submitted for your approval (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg665180.html#msg665180)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 10:14:27 AM
Thread Duty:

I like the Prokofiev Second best of all his symphonies ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on October 05, 2012, 10:19:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 05, 2012, 10:14:27 AM
Thread Duty:

I like the Prokofiev Second best of all his symphonies ; )
I agree, but is this an unpopular opinion? Although of course plenty of people have only heard the First on the radio.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2012, 10:24:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 05, 2012, 10:14:27 AM
Thread Duty:

I like the Prokofiev Second best of all his symphonies ; )

I like it second best too. I like the First first best.  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 10:29:05 AM
Re-parsed by a Texan! Hate when that happens! ; )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:29:45 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
I prefer Prokofiev to Shostakovich.

Not unpopular, I have been saying that for years, and its not a knock on DSCH, just high praise for Prokofiev.

What I feel may be unpopular, is my disagreement for the high praise Aaron Copland receives. I find much of the music to be quite bland behind all the flare, pop and serenity of his most well known works (Rodeo, Billy The Kid, Appalacian Spring, Symphony 3). I don't find anything challenging or fresh in Copland's music.
Regarding American composers, Ives is the granddaddy of them all, but I even prefer Piston, Hovhanass, and a personal favorite, Schoenfield over Copland.

Copland is the Spielberg of American music, whereas Ives is the Terrance Malick of American music. Think about it, Spielberg's film never truly demand the audience's full concentration or participation, the questions and answers, the mystery, the resolutions, is all laid out clearly for its viewers. It's entertaining, yes, but that's as far as it goes.
Ives, similar to Malick, takes a genre, a tune, an general idea and completely dissects it, exploring all the facets, allowing the listener, or viewer, complete access into the possibilities of conclusions. There are no boundaries, and nothing is forbidden. It's a trip into an unknown world that is full of familiarity.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 10:32:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 05, 2012, 10:14:27 AM
Thread Duty:

I like the Prokofiev Second best of all his symphonies ; )

Yeah, Prokofiev's 2nd is just my cup of insanity. I love it! >:D I like Shosty's 2nd come to think of it too. Totally crazy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 10:37:34 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:29:45 AM
Not unpopular, I have been saying that for years, and its not a knock on DSCH, just high praise for Prokofiev.

That's the right angle!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 10:42:58 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:29:45 AM
Not unpopular, I have been saying that for years, and its not a knock on DSCH, just high praise for Prokofiev.

What I feel may be unpopular, is my disagreement for the high praise Aaron Copland receives. I find much of the music to be quite bland behind all the flare, pop and serenity of his most well known works (Rodeo, Billy The Kid, Appalacian Spring, Symphony 3). I don't find anything challenging or fresh in Copland's music.
Regarding American composers, Ives is the granddaddy of them all, but I even prefer Piston, Hovhanass, and a personal favorite, Schoenfield over Copland.

Copland is the Spielberg of American music, whereas Ives is the Terrance Malick of American music. Think about it, Spielberg's film never truly demand the audience's full concentration or participation, the questions and answers, the mystery, the resolutions, is all laid out clearly for its viewers. It's entertaining, yes, but that's as far as it goes.
Ives, similar to Malick, takes a genre, a tune, an general idea and completely dissects it, exploring all the facets, allowing the listener, or viewer, complete access into the possibilities of conclusions. There are no boundaries, and nothing is forbidden. It's a trip into an unknown world that is full of familiarity.

I personally like a good bit of Copland's music. I think if you looked at Copland's entire oeuvre it's quite diverse. I don't know if I care for your comparison you made with Spielberg either. Ives may be the grandfather of American classical music, but Copland put a unique spin on the American sound and, in turn, inspired many others to do the same, but really comparing Ives and Copland is apples and oranges. They couldn't be more different from each other.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 10:47:10 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 10:44:32 AM
I prefer Copland to Ives.

:D

In some ways, yes, but I think both composers are outstanding.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:49:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 10:47:10 AM
In some ways, yes, but I think both composers are outstanding.

And I agree, John, it may have been comparing apples to oranges, but what's the fun in comparing apples to apples?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 10:53:14 AM
Well, I think Copland was clearly a more professional composer than Ives.

OTOH, Ives was apt to much nervier artistic 'risk' than was Copland.

That said, I like both of them very well, and would not wish either otherwise than he was.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 10:54:36 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:49:41 AM
And I agree, John, it may have been comparing apples to oranges, but what's the fun in comparing apples to apples?  ;D

I suppose so, Greg. :) For me, one listen to Copland's Clarinet Concerto reveals an intimacy in this composer that I don't always get in Ives. For me, and you may not like this analogy Greg, but Ives is like a chemist whereas Copland is a craftsman. Both approaches are valid, but many people are naturally going to gravitate towards one over the other, but I like both.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:56:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 10:54:36 AM
I suppose so, Greg. :) For me, one listen to Copland's Clarinet Concerto reveals an intimacy in this composer that I don't get in Ives. For me, and you may not like this analogy Greg, but Ives is like a chemist whereas Copland is a craftsman. Both approaches are valid, but you're naturally going to gravitate towards one over the other.

I love analogies, and yours is a good one!

Surprisingly, my favorite Copland piece is El Salon Mexico.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 10:57:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 10:54:36 AM
I suppose so, Greg. :) For me, one listen to Copland's Clarinet Concerto reveals an intimacy in this composer that I don't always get in Ives. For me, and you may not like this analogy Greg, but Ives is like a chemist whereas Copland is a craftsman. Both approaches are valid, but you're naturally going to gravitate towards one over the other.

An interesting analogy.

I should disagree, though, that one necessarily will gravitate to one of the other Type.  Some of us (many, I should think) like both caviar and fish-&-chips.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 10:59:34 AM
If you haven't heard the Sextet, there's an important angle to Copland whereof you are almost entirely unaware.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 11:01:42 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:56:37 AM
I love analogies, and yours is a good one!

Surprisingly, my favorite Copland piece is El Salon Mexico.

Thanks, Greg. I haven't listened to El Salon Mexico in quite some time. When I did listen to that work, I keep wondering why am I not listening to Chavez or Revueltas instead? :-\
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2012, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 10:57:22 AM
I don't often find myself listening to either composer's music.  However, I am well aware that I listen to Copland much more often than Ives.   Ives' music has never appealed to me and I listen to him mainly for historical education; not enjoyment.  Of course Copland's Appalachian Spring is a wonderful work that I listen to regularly but I also like some of his "out of the way" works like the Piano Concerto (which I consider a Gershwin homage) and his Clarinet Concerto (not so "out of the way") is one of my favorite works in that form. I also enjoy his film music quite a lot.

Ives is damn awesome. I love his music. Sometimes his music is just so overwhelmingly chaotic and then it comes to an eerie silence where only a few instruments are played. Works like Holidays Symphony and Symphony No. 4 never fail to give me satisfaction. Central Park in the Dark if played the Bernstein way will reveal just how demonic that work sounds. >:D The guy is just amazing and one of my first classical loves.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 05, 2012, 10:57:37 AM
An interesting analogy.

I should disagree, though, that one necessarily will gravitate to one of the other Type.  Some of us (many, I should think) like both caviar and fish-&-chips.


Great point, Karl.
Desprez in the morning, Liszt for the afternoon, and a late night snack of Schoenberg.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2012, 11:09:46 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 11:03:45 AM
If this was addressed to me ... I am almost sure I've heard it since I've heard most of Copland's music at some time or other; but I guess it didn't stick with me.  I will hunt it down.  I am aware he has a  "thorny" side (to use a modern music cliche) if the Sextet might be described thorny, but do not turn to him for this kind of thing.  Carter (among others) is my go-to guy for thorn.

Well, the Piano Variations give more of the thorny bit. There's a bracing athleticism in the Sextet, whereof there is some hint in (say) Appalachian Spring, but in the latter work (depending on how it's treated) it can go a bit mushy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 11:11:10 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 11:08:03 AM
I am happy for you  :D  And gladly turn over to you all my Ives listening chores.   ;D

Love this. I imagine the voice of the Dos Equis "Interesting Man" saying this with such a smooth coolness.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 11:11:54 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 10:29:45 AM
What I feel may be unpopular, is my disagreement for the high praise Aaron Copland receives. I find much of the music to be quite bland behind all the flare, pop and serenity of his most well known works (Rodeo, Billy The Kid, Appalacian Spring, Symphony 3). I don't find anything challenging or fresh in Copland's music.
An opinion that's probably unpopular in general, but well entrenched in the mainstream at GMG.

Personally, I love Copland. And I suspect that if you find nothing challenging in his music, then you may have missed some of his less popular works. And if you find nothing fresh in his music, that may be because his popular successes thoroughly influenced most American music that followed.  Somewhat like Korngold who's so often dismissed as "sounding like movie music."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 05, 2012, 11:12:44 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 11:09:35 AM
Liszt for the afternoon,
Funny, I just put on the Annees de Pelerinage (Chamayou).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2012, 01:28:35 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 05, 2012, 11:21:13 AM
I am listening to the Sextet as I type, and do hear the aspects of Appalachian SpringI think you refer to.  Inscape, Connotations and Piano Variations, yes, definitely, a thornier Copland.

Perhaps I will expand my Copland knowledge, I'll look for some of these pieces online.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: RJR on November 18, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2012, 12:36:25 PM
Before getting into classical, people online would keep telling me what composers I need to listen to. Most of them said either Mozart, Beethoven, or Bach. What these people don't understand and probably still don't is that I believe people need to create their path with music. I mean sure we can take a suggestion or a recommendation for a recording, but, ultimately, we are the only ones that can decide what we want out of this music. Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven aren't composers I flock to nor have I ever even considered them apart of my musical vocabulary. Perhaps some of this comes from the fact that I didn't study music and thus I never had to learn a Bach or Beethoven piece on the piano. No, I come to music from a completely different side. I came to classical from a rock and jazz background with no training in the alleged 'classics'. When I chose to explore Bartok, Ravel, or Bruckner, people who knew I was new to classical would say that I need to be listening to better, more influential composers. After awhile, I considered these suggestions nothing more than a form of bullying. Nobody can force you to listen to anything. I think these "suggestions" did more harm than good. Now, I'm glad I did what the hell I wanted to and didn't listen to the naysayers who said I was making a mistake by purposely bypassing the Baroque and Classical Eras. I bypassed these periods of music because they didn't interest me. I like dissonance that is in your face. I like harmonic ambiguity. I like music that pounds away at your heartstrings and never lets up and music that starts off witty but suddenly becomes vulgar. This is the music of my soul. It is real, it is honest.

Have you listened to K. A. Hartmann?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 18, 2012, 06:52:21 PM
Quote from: RJR on November 18, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
Have you listened to K. A. Hartmann?

Yes, I'm still trying to get into him, but it shouldn't take much longer since Alban Berg is a favorite of mine. Hartmann took the whole Expressionist meltdown thing to another level entirely. :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on November 19, 2012, 06:25:05 AM
   I've never liked the music of Poulenc.  It represents French music at its frivolous worst. Humor in music is wonderful, but I can't stand cuteness in it. And Poulenc's music is annoyingly cutsie-pie.  All that  mincing preciosity, the affected  Parisian chi-chi and frou-frou .
When Poulenc tries to be serious, as in Les Dialogues du Carmelites, he's just boringly gloomy .
   I'm not anti-french at all . I admire other French composers such as Berlioz, Massenet, Saint-Saens, Dukas, Faure ,Messiaen, Roussel ,etc greatly .
But Poulenc's music is just so off-putting to me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2012, 06:33:34 AM
You've mistaken this for the Kvetch About Any Composer You Dislike thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on November 19, 2012, 06:41:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2012, 06:33:34 AM
Kvetch About Any Composer You Dislike

Isn't that (one of) the point(s) of this thread? ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2012, 06:50:23 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 19, 2012, 06:41:32 AM
Isn't that (one of) the point(s) of this thread? ;)

It presupposes that consensus is for Poulenc.

Quote from: sanantonio on November 19, 2012, 06:44:05 AM
I love Poulenc's music; he is one of my favorite composers.  Everything you find objectionable I consider his most attractive characteristics.  Which only goes to show that there is no accounting for taste - and I am uncertain which of our opinions is the more unpopular.

Precisamente.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2012, 06:52:26 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on November 19, 2012, 06:25:05 AMIt represents French music at its frivolous worst. Humor in music is wonderful, but I can't stand cuteness in it. And Poulenc's music is annoyingly cutsie-pie.  All that  mincing preciosity, the affected  Parisian chi-chi and frou-frou .
Boy, you would HATE Jean Francaix!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on November 19, 2012, 07:43:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2012, 06:50:23 AM
It presupposes that consensus is for Poulenc.

Ah.

;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 19, 2012, 07:43:14 AM
Ah.

;D

As san anton' suggests . . . there is not, I don't suppose, a consensus w/r/t Poulenc in either direction.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2012, 08:11:51 AM
I like Poulenc. Not everything the man wrote mind you, but he has composed some fantastic music. If anything, his chamber music should be high on most listener's favorite lists. It's definitely on mine.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on November 19, 2012, 09:37:20 AM
Yeah, yeah, keep reminding me that the Poulenc piano music set still didn't arrive, even though Amazon shipped me a new, free order after the first didn't show up..  :'(

Anyway, his concertos for keyboard instruments are ace! And I don't hear an ounce of frenchness in them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on November 19, 2012, 09:46:31 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on November 19, 2012, 09:37:20 AM
Yeah, yeah, keep reminding me that the Poulenc piano music set still didn't arrive, even though Amazon shipped me a new, free order after the first didn't show up..  :'(

Sorry to hear about that. Third time lucky, perhaps?

Speaking of his piano music, it is quite possible that I wrongly remembered what I had heard in the radio a few years ago, when I bought a box full of Scriabin's piano output earlier this year. It probably should have been Poulenc's. :-\
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 19, 2012, 12:27:11 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
As san anton' suggests . . . there is not, I don't suppose, a consensus w/r/t Poulenc in either direction.


(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/888/judgemillslanecw3.jpg)


I'll allow it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2012, 01:05:39 PM
Winning!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on November 20, 2012, 06:42:19 AM
   I've heard some of Francaix's music, and it's pleasant but  insignificant.  One piece, the Orloge des Flore, or the Flower Clock, for oboe and orchestra, isn't bad
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 07:56:53 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on November 20, 2012, 06:42:19 AM
   I've heard some of Francaix's music, and it's pleasant but  insignificant.  One piece, the Orloge des Flore, or the Flower Clock, for oboe and orchestra, isn't bad

Yeah, I'm not crazy about Francaix's music either. There's nothing for me to grab ahold of in his music.  I need more tension and a bit more dissonance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 23, 2012, 03:16:22 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
As san anton' suggests . . . there is not, I don't suppose, a consensus w/r/t Poulenc in either direction.

Having just got into exploring Poulenc more, I was interested to discover that not even Poulenc had a consensus about Poulenc. He repudiated much of his earlier work in fairly strong  terms.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 27, 2012, 05:28:39 PM
John (MI) asked about this on Facebook, so: yes, I sincerely love "Gangnam Style." The song itself is fairly catchy and of modest interest, but the video is a total delight. It's a sort of unabashed celebration that makes me extremely happy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 05:46:14 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 27, 2012, 05:28:39 PM
John (MI) asked about this on Facebook, so: yes, I sincerely love "Gangnam Style." The song itself is fairly catchy and of modest interest, but the video is a total delight. It's a sort of unabashed celebration that makes me extremely happy.

Oh dear lord...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on December 27, 2012, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 27, 2012, 05:28:39 PM
John (MI) asked about this on Facebook, so: yes, I sincerely love "Gangnam Style." The song itself is fairly catchy and of modest interest, but the video is a total delight. It's a sort of unabashed celebration that makes me extremely happy.

This is my favorite version:
http://www.youtube.com/v/0bpirJm9aMk
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: RJR on December 30, 2012, 10:59:58 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2012, 06:44:50 PM
It was easy to tell that there was no anger there, you didn't need to belabor it. ::)  Anyway, who really gives a damn what you listen to? You like what you like, I like what I like, DavidW likes what he likes. Where's the problem? It's kinda like you have a teeny tiny chip on your shoulder... :)

8)

A Laura Scudders potato chip perhaps?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on August 12, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
I always get mixed up between what is a parallel key and what is a relative key. The main reason is, to me, they could interchangeably describe either key. A Minor and A Major are parallel because they start on the same note, so in playing one scale I'm moving parallel to the other, despite the few different intervals . And obviously the reasoning that they are relative works, as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eumyang on August 13, 2013, 06:33:02 AM
I think I have two:

(1) For whatever reason, vocal music & opera do not hold my interest as much as instrumental music.  I would say over 98% of my classical CD's are of instrumental music. :o  I just checked my collection and I have a grand total of four (!!!!) vocal CDs or CD sets (Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, Brahms' Liebeslieder Waltzes, Mozart's Die Zauberflöte and Mozart's Requiem).  And the next few CDs I plan to buy are instrumental.

(2) I rarely buy more than one recording of the same work or collection of works.  This is due to my upbringing; our family wasn't exactly rich, and buying more than one LP of the same music was considered a waste of money.  I still remember my dad being mad at me when I asked for money to buy a second recording of Beethoven's symphonies.  The only multiple recordings I have right now are of Beethoven's piano sonatas (Brendel on Vox and Goode) and Bach's Art of Fugue (although I'm not sure if this counts, because they are of different instrumental forces: one is for string quartet, and the other is for piano solo).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2013, 06:41:59 AM
Quote from: eumyang on August 13, 2013, 06:33:02 AM
......Bach's Art of Fugue (although I'm not sure if this counts, because they are of different instrumental forces: one is for string quartet, and the other is for piano solo).

Clearly the solo piano version was a waste of money... :P

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 13, 2013, 06:42:35 AM
Quote from: eumyang on August 13, 2013, 06:33:02 AM
I think I have two:

(1) For whatever reason, vocal music & opera do not hold my interest as much as instrumental music.  I would say over 98% of my classical CD's are of instrumental music. :o  I just checked my collection and I have a grand total of four (!!!!) vocal CDs or CD sets (Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, Brahms' Liebeslieder Waltzes, Mozart's Die Zauberflöte and Mozart's Requiem).  And the next few CDs I plan to buy are instrumental.

(2) I rarely buy more than one recording of the same work or collection of works.  This is due to my upbringing; our family wasn't exactly rich, and buying more than one LP of the same music was considered a waste of money.  I still remember my dad being mad at me when I asked for money to buy a second recording of Beethoven's symphonies.  The only multiple recordings I have right now are of Beethoven's piano sonatas (Brendel on Vox and Goode) and Bach's Art of Fugue (although I'm not sure if this counts, because they are of different instrumental forces: one is for string quartet, and the other is for piano solo).
Neither is really that unpopular an opinion. On this forum, there are plenty of folks with recordings of each of the Mahler/Bruckner/Beethoven/Brahms symphonies well into double digits, but there are also people who aren't that interested in having a huge number of recordings of a work (like me). And the vocal/opera part of the forum isn't exactly hyperactive, is it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2013, 06:46:04 AM
Quote from: eumyang on August 13, 2013, 06:33:02 AM
. . . and Bach's Art of Fugue (although I'm not sure if this counts, because they are of different instrumental forces: one is for string quartet, and the other is for piano solo).

I wonder what instrumental forces Bach specified (hint, hint) . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 13, 2013, 06:51:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 13, 2013, 06:46:04 AM
I wonder what instrumental forces Bach specified (hint, hint) . . . .
The saxophone quartet is surely closest to being authentic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jut1972 on August 13, 2013, 07:25:59 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 27, 2012, 05:28:39 PM
John (MI) asked about this on Facebook, so: yes, I sincerely love "Gangnam Style." The song itself is fairly catchy and of modest interest, but the video is a total delight. It's a sort of unabashed celebration that makes me extremely happy.

+1.
2nd best pop song of last 20 years. .. hit me baby one more time is  #1 by the way.

  >:D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on August 13, 2013, 10:43:22 AM
Quote from: eumyang on August 13, 2013, 06:33:02 AM
  The only multiple recordings I have right now are of Beethoven's piano sonatas (Brendel on Vox and Goode) and Bach's Art of Fugue (although I'm not sure if this counts, because they are of different instrumental forces: one is for string quartet, and the other is for piano solo).

It counts if you say it counts. 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 10:51:12 AM
Quote from: jut1972 on August 13, 2013, 07:25:59 AM
+1.
2nd best pop song of last 20 years. .. hit me baby one more time is  #1 by the way.

  >:D

Unpopular indeed  :D

These are all better:

SOPHIE B. HAWKINS   AS I LAY ME DOWN  1994
STONE ROSES   LOVE SPREADS  1994
HEATHER NOVA   WALK THIS WORLD  1995
SMASHING PUMPKINS   BULLET WITH BUTTERFLY WINGS  1995
ALANIS MORISSETTE   YOU OUGHTA KNOW  1995 
THE CONNELLS   '74-'75  1995
SMASHING PUMPKINS   TONIGHT TONIGHT  1996
DEANNA CARTER   STRAWBERRY WINE  1996
SUBLIME   WHAT I GOT  1996
SUBLIME   WRONG WAY  1997
JEWEL   FOOLISH GAMES  1997
TONI BRAXTON   UN-BREAK MY HEART  1997
FLEETWOOD MAC/STEVIE NICKS   LANDSLIDE  1997
CHUMBAWAMBA   TUBTHUMPING  1998
NATALIE IMBRUGLIA   TORN  1998
MADONNA   FROZEN  1998
WILLIE NELSON with EMMYLOU HARRIS   I NEVER CARED FOR YOU  1998
GOO GOO DOLLS   IRIS  1998
BLONDIE   MARIA  1999
JOHN PRINE and IRIS DEMENT   IN SPITE OF OURSELVES  1999
THE CORRS   BREATHLESS  2000


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: modUltralaser on August 13, 2013, 11:01:32 AM
Sarge, none of those seem to be pop songs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 11:06:37 AM
Quote from: Philo (Artist formerly known as) on August 13, 2013, 11:01:32 AM
Sarge, none of those seem to be pop songs.

I heard them all on German pop radio stations. Maybe we just have superior pop...and superior radio  :D


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: modUltralaser on August 13, 2013, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 11:06:37 AM
I heard them all on German pop radio stations. Maybe we just have superior pop...and superior radio  :D


Sarge

Lol. For me pop is vapid and ultimately forgettable.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jut1972 on August 13, 2013, 11:24:28 AM
Lots of pap there Sarge  ;)  but seriously... think of the impact that song had... unpopular but undeniable!

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2013, 11:27:23 AM
German pop, better?

HELLZ YEAH:

http://www.youtube.com/v/fKFORPJFMxc
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 11:29:46 AM
And this  :D

http://www.youtube.com/v/lNYcviXK4rg


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on August 13, 2013, 11:32:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 10:51:12 AM
Unpopular indeed  :D

These are all better:

SOPHIE B. HAWKINS   AS I LAY ME DOWN  1994
STONE ROSES   LOVE SPREADS  1994
HEATHER NOVA   WALK THIS WORLD  1995
SMASHING PUMPKINS   BULLET WITH BUTTERFLY WINGS  1995
ALANIS MORISSETTE   YOU OUGHTA KNOW  1995 
THE CONNELLS   '74-'75  1995
SMASHING PUMPKINS   TONIGHT TONIGHT  1996
DEANNA CARTER   STRAWBERRY WINE  1996
SUBLIME   WHAT I GOT  1996
SUBLIME   WRONG WAY  1997
JEWEL   FOOLISH GAMES  1997
TONI BRAXTON   UN-BREAK MY HEART  1997
FLEETWOOD MAC/STEVIE NICKS   LANDSLIDE  1997
CHUMBAWAMBA   TUBTHUMPING  1998
NATALIE IMBRUGLIA   TORN  1998
MADONNA   FROZEN  1998
WILLIE NELSON with EMMYLOU HARRIS   I NEVER CARED FOR YOU  1998
GOO GOO DOLLS   IRIS  1998
BLONDIE   MARIA  1999
JOHN PRINE and IRIS DEMENT   IN SPITE OF OURSELVES  1999
THE CORRS   BREATHLESS  2000


Sarge

You forgot, "The Night Chicago Died," Paper Lace, 1974.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: modUltralaser on August 13, 2013, 11:33:52 AM
'I mean how many folks actually remember LMFAO's hit(s)? Honestly, I recall Weird Al more than the New Kids.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 11:36:25 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 13, 2013, 11:32:04 AM
You forgot, "The Night Chicago Died," Paper Lace, 1974.

I was just going back twenty years, responding to jut's post.

Quote from: Philo (Artist formerly known as) on August 13, 2013, 11:33:52 AM
'I mean how many folks actually remember LMFAO's hit(s)? Honestly, I recall Weird Al more than the New Kids.

I love pop. I keep a list of my favorite songs starting with "Candy Kisses" from 1949, the year I was born  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: modUltralaser on August 13, 2013, 11:38:32 AM
I love pop as well but none of it sticks and all of it is replaceable. Popular and pop are distinct.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 11:54:29 AM
Quote from: Philo (Artist formerly known as) on August 13, 2013, 11:38:32 AM
I love pop as well but none of it sticks and all of it is replaceable. Popular and pop are distinct.

Maybe it's the time you live in. I feel sorry for you. Pop today sucks big time. For me, though, I had fifty years of great music; the good songs certainly do stick (of course I grew in the golden age: 50s, 60s, so maybe that has something to do with it). Song has always been part of my life; I've always had favorites (and few have faded into insignificance). Hearing a song from years ago transports me instantly back in time. Hearing Joplin sing "Me and Bobby McGee" takes me to Wisconsin, 1971, preparing for my first marriage. "Love is Blue" takes me back to Athens Ohio, 1968, mourning a lost relationship. "Tubthumping" (I wish I could forget! :D ) I'm on my way to BASF and a hellish 8 hours working with corrosive and explosive chemicals for minimum wage in 1997.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on August 13, 2013, 11:57:02 AM
Ha that tubthumping takes me back to my freshman year in the dorms! :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2013, 11:29:46 AM
And this  :D

http://www.youtube.com/v/lNYcviXK4rg


Sarge

Holy shit. My father brought a cassette of that song back from Germany when he was studying in Hannover in college. It's been a family favorite ever since, and as a teenager I used to freak out more or less any music fan by making them watch the official and very violent Da Da Da music video.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 15, 2013, 05:52:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 13, 2013, 11:57:02 AM
Ha that tubthumping takes me back to my freshman year in the dorms! :laugh:

Quote from: Brian on August 13, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Holy shit....Da Da Da

And this is another thing pop music does: connects us  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 15, 2013, 06:58:24 AM
Must be an apt time to bring this back forward:

http://www.youtube.com/v/WpNmIrMMAEQ
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pencils on August 15, 2013, 11:33:40 AM
Piano music sucks. But I have already said that in another thread.

Plinky plinky Satans.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on August 15, 2013, 04:44:38 PM
Non-classical edition:

Butthole Surfers' "Electriclarryland" and Failure's "Fantastic Planet" are the best '90s albums.

Japan has produced a big chunk of the world's best rock music, and if it (the good bands) were given serious playtime overseas, it would succeed, despite the language barrier.

If, instead of being a video game song, "Natural Playboy" from Bust a Groove were released during the '70s, it would be considered one of the all-time classics.

"One Hot Minute" is the RHCP's best.

Many modern songs are too long. I'm talking about ones that follow a standard rock/pop song structure. The oldies had it right. You don't need to go longer than 3 minutes, and any songs that are longer do so using tactics like needlessly repeating the chorus again, or dropping in an easy key change. Songs should leave you wanting more, so that you want to replay them, as opposed to exhausting all of their material.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on August 15, 2013, 11:33:58 PM
Quote from: The Six on August 15, 2013, 04:44:38 PM
any songs that are longer do so using tactics like needlessly repeating the chorus again, or dropping in an easy key change.
Yes, like the Beatles' A Day in the Life.  >:( >:(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2013, 04:18:56 AM
Woke up, fell out of bed . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ten thumbs on August 16, 2013, 01:58:35 PM
Quote from: pencils on August 15, 2013, 11:33:40 AM
Piano music sucks. But I have already said that in another thread.

Plinky plinky Satans.

Reminds me of my wife's opinion of violin music:

Squeaky squeak, scrape, scrape.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pencils on August 16, 2013, 05:24:31 PM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on August 16, 2013, 01:58:35 PM
Reminds me of my wife's opinion of violin music:

Squeaky squeak, scrape, scrape.

:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Beorn on August 16, 2013, 05:28:29 PM
Quote from: pencils on August 15, 2013, 11:33:40 AM
Piano music sucks. But I have already said that in another thread.

Plinky plinky Satans.

We are no longer friends.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Beorn on August 16, 2013, 06:04:57 PM
Quote from: The new erato on August 15, 2013, 11:33:58 PM
Yes, like the Beatles' A Day in the Life.  >:( >:(

Blasphemy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2013, 06:25:25 PM
I don't mind applause in between movements, I would never initiate it, but it also has never bothered me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pencils on August 18, 2013, 02:35:53 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 16, 2013, 05:28:29 PM
We are no longer friends.  :)

*pulls tongues*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on August 22, 2013, 06:01:07 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2013, 06:58:24 AM
Must be an apt time to bring this back forward:

http://www.youtube.com/v/WpNmIrMMAEQ
Hmmm...I was prepared to snicker, and I actually did at the beginning--but it really isn't bad.  Of course, lots of great early music was based on troubador and drinking songs...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on August 22, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2013, 04:18:56 AM
Woke up, fell out of bed . . . .
Move it up to Morrison: "Well I woke up this mornin' and I got myself a beer." ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2013, 04:07:48 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 22, 2013, 06:01:07 PM
Hmmm...I was prepared to snicker, and I actually did at the beginning--but it really isn't bad.  Of course, lots of great early music was based on troubador and drinking songs...

A young lady at the MFA shop had a similar experience. She felt that the organ treatment here transcended the source material  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2013, 04:08:34 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 22, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Move it up to Morrison: "Well I woke up this mornin' and I got myself a beer." ;D

I exult to say it is many a year since I felt anything like that!  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2013, 04:08:56 AM
I mean, I enjoy it as an image . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jut1972 on August 23, 2013, 06:53:37 AM
Quote from: The new erato on August 15, 2013, 11:33:58 PM
Yes, like the Beatles' A Day in the Life.  >:( >:(

Best song ever.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on August 24, 2013, 04:19:22 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 23, 2013, 04:08:34 AM
I exult to say it is many a year since I felt anything like that!  :)
The world rejoices to read this, I'm sure. :o ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Silk on August 26, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
I think Mozart is very over-rated.  Apart from the last few symphonies, a couple of the piano sonatas, the Mass in C, two or three of the operas, the Gran Partita for Winds and some chamber music it's all so sweet and the endless tonality and saccharine quality has me reaching for something more 'savory'.  Like eating a meal that is all black forest cake.  At my stage much of Mozart is too easy-listening for me, but I was a big fan 30 years ago.  Now my musical tastes have matured and I've left him largely behind, apart from the wonderful works I've mentioned.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kyjo on August 26, 2013, 03:48:52 PM
Richard Strauss' music is no more profound than Johann's. Yep, I just said that and I sure as hell mean it. There's such an egotistical quality to his music that I find immensely appalling. Every time I listen to his music, I come out of it feeling cheated. I can almost see the composer smirking at me from his grave, saying "Ha! I got your attention with that opening, now you'll have to listen to half an hour of my note-spinning!" I was listening to Josephslegende the other night and hated it so much I ejected the disc. At first, I thought my dislike for it stems from the fact that it is one of Strauss' lesser pieces, but I read numerous reviews of it by Strauss fans saying it is an unheralded masterpiece worthy of comparison with Strauss' "best works". ::) It continues to baffle me why Strauss' music is so popular. I even think he's more overrated than Mozart. Back to the J. Strauss comparison, give me The Blue Danube any day over Richard's empty, emotionally detached music! :D

*runs for cover*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on August 26, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
I agree with you, Kyle, about Richard Strauss. Such empty, bloated music. I do have a liking for Elektra and Salome. The Four Last Songs are also quite moving, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kyjo on August 26, 2013, 03:57:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 26, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
I agree with you, Kyle, about Richard Strauss. Such empty, bloated music. I do have a liking for Elektra and Salome. The Four Last Songs are also quite moving, but that's about it.

I wouldn't have posted this if you would like Strauss' music, because you're probably the only member here that agrees with me! :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on August 26, 2013, 04:13:03 PM
Quote from: kyjo on August 26, 2013, 03:57:43 PM
I wouldn't have posted this if you would like Strauss' music, because you're probably the only member here that agrees with me! :D

There are several members who are huge fans of Strauss, but there are some who don't see what the big deal with his music is either. He's quite the polarizing composer to say the least. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AdamFromWashington on August 26, 2013, 04:57:37 PM
I don't like Strauss much, either. I used to love the Alpine Symphony, but not so much, anymore. It's too long for the material, IMO. After the summit it all bores me. Except the storm section, but that's not quite enough to redeem the descent. A piece with the climax in the middle seems like a poor idea, anyway. I wish the whole piece was half as long. Thus Spoke Zarathustra never clicked with me past the first two movements, which are lovely. Don Juan and Till Eulenspiegal are fun, but that's it. Strauss's orchestration is very colorful, but too dense for prolonged listening. It all seems bloated. The only work by Strauss I really enjoy is Metamorphosen. Try as I might, I've never enjoyed the Four Last Songs. In the end I have to agree with Strauss himself: he was a "first-class second-rate composer."


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kyjo on August 26, 2013, 05:14:22 PM
Quote from: Adam of the North(west) on August 26, 2013, 04:57:37 PM
I don't like Strauss much, either. I used to love the Alpine Symphony, but not so much, anymore. It's too long for the material, IMO. After the summit it all bores me. Except the storm section, but that's not quite enough to redeem the descent. A piece with the climax in the middle seems like a poor idea, anyway. I wish the whole piece was half as long. Thus Spoke Zarathustra never clicked with me past the first two movements, which are lovely. Don Juan and Till Eulenspiegal are fun, but that's it. Strauss's orchestration is very colorful, but too dense for prolonged listening. It all seems bloated. The only work by Strauss I really enjoy is Metamorphosen. Try as I might, I've never enjoyed the Four Last Songs. In the end I have to agree with Strauss himself: he was a "first-class second-rate composer."

Ah, what a relief! John is not the only person that agrees with me! :D Your post largely reflects my own feelings on Strauss' music. If there is one Strauss work which I revisit in the near future, it will be Metamorphosen, which you mention is the only piece by Strauss you really enjoy. IIRC you're not the only person, Adam, who isn't particularly fond of Strauss' music that has said Metamorphosen was his only work that "clicked" with them. Since it was inspired by the tragic Dresden bombings rather than something of a fantastic or narrative nature (like most of his other compositions), I'm thinking Strauss actually put his heart into this work, but, as it's been ages since I've heard it, I can't say anything definite. Kinda reminds me of Mozart. There's only one work he wrote in which he connects with the complex range of human emotions, his Requiem.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 26, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
I'm actually going to jump aboard the Richard Strauss hate-train too. And you guys have already identified the two Strauss works I prize above all others: Metamorphosen and the Four Last Songs. There's no shame in that, honestly; the Four Last Songs alone would be enough to make a pretty serious case for his greatness and importance, and they make a convenient and highly symbolic "ending" to the "romantic era." But the famous tone poems hold no interest for me.

Note: I don't know the operas.

Quote from: kyjo on August 26, 2013, 05:14:22 PM
I'm thinking Strauss actually put his heart into this work, but, as it's been ages since I've heard it, I can't say anything definite. Kinda reminds me of Mozart. There's only one work he wrote in which he connects with the complex range of human emotions, his Requiem.
Good news: this is the Unpopular Opinions thread, so I can't yell at you.
Bad news: I can assign you to listen to the 20th piano concerto and watch Don Giovanni.

I have to say, last week when I was moving my late grandmother's things out of her room in the nursing home, one of her neighbors was playing Mozart's 25th symphony full-blast, the first movement. It had a jarring, disturbing emotional effect on me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on August 26, 2013, 07:55:09 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 26, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
I'm actually going to jump aboard the Richard Strauss hate-train too. And you guys have already identified the two Strauss works I prize above all others: Metamorphosen and the Four Last Songs. There's no shame in that, honestly; the Four Last Songs alone would be enough to make a pretty serious case for his greatness and importance, and they make a convenient and highly symbolic "ending" to the "romantic era." But the famous tone poems hold no interest for me.

Note: I don't know the operas.
Good news: this is the Unpopular Opinions thread, so I can't yell at you.
Bad news: I can assign you to listen to the 20th piano concerto and watch Don Giovanni.

I have to say, last week when I was moving my late grandmother's things out of her room in the nursing home, one of her neighbors was playing Mozart's 25th symphony full-blast, the first movement. It had a jarring, disturbing emotional effect on me.

You seem to be part of a decide trend here,  in which I join (although I'm more partial to the operas).  Metamorphosen and Four Last Songs, and don't bother with the rest!

The Mozart opera I would assign would be Nozze di Figaro.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on August 26, 2013, 10:12:05 PM
Quote from: Silk on August 26, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
I think Mozart is very over-rated.  Apart from the last few symphonies, a couple of the piano sonatas, the Mass in C, two or three of the operas, the Gran Partita for Winds and some chamber music it's all so sweet and the endless tonality and saccharine quality has me reaching for something more 'savory'.  Like eating a meal that is all black forest cake.  At my stage much of Mozart is too easy-listening for me, but I was a big fan 30 years ago.  Now my musical tastes have matured and I've left him largely behind, apart from the wonderful works I've mentioned.

I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, as such. Yes, Mozart is hyped up among the general public (okay, so it's "popular" in that sense), but much of the genius attributed to him by those who know better than the average Joe is mostly the result of his later works, especially the ones you mention and the piano concerti.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Geo Dude on August 27, 2013, 08:09:42 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 22, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Move it up to Morrison: "Well I woke up this mornin' and I got myself a beer." ;D

:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 27, 2013, 01:26:37 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 26, 2013, 10:12:05 PM
I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, as such. Yes, Mozart is hyped up among the general public (okay, so it's "popular" in that sense), but much of the genius attributed to him by those who know better than the average Joe is mostly the result of his later works, especially the ones you mention and the piano concerti.

Honestly, this is way off. $:) Among Mozart fans ("those who know better than the average Joe") the list of recognizably accomplished works which predate the "late" period is stacked up like a log-jam.

You'll hardly find a true Mozartian who doesn't enjoy such early works (or early-ish, anyway) as the violin concertos, the early masses, or the serenades (the Haffner in particular).

The "middle" period is populated by such works as Idomeneo, the Posthorn Serenade, and the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola (not to mention the first of his "Haydn" string quartets).

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So much more to explore.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Klaze on August 27, 2013, 01:32:38 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 26, 2013, 07:55:09 PM
You seem to be part of a decide trend here,  in which I join (although I'm more partial to the operas).  Metamorphosen and Four Last Songs, and don't bother with the rest!


I'd gladly join this trend, although I really like Till Eulenspiegel as well...
Anyway, perhaps the unpopularity of this opinion on Strauss should be re-evaluated? ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 27, 2013, 01:42:39 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 27, 2013, 01:26:37 PM
Honestly, this is way off. $:) Among Mozart fans ("those who know better than the average Joe") the list of recognizably accomplished works which predate the "late" period is stacked up like a log-jam.

You'll hardly find a true Mozartian who doesn't enjoy such early works (or early-ish, anyway) as the violin concertos, the early masses, or the serenades (the Haffner in particular).

The "middle" period is populated by such works as Idomeneo, the Posthorn Serenade, and the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola (not to mention the first of his "Haydn" string quartets).

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So much more to explore.
+1.

Quote from: Brian on August 26, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
I'm actually going to jump aboard the Richard Strauss hate-train too. And you guys have already identified the two Strauss works I prize above all others: Metamorphosen and the Four Last Songs. There's no shame in that, honestly; the Four Last Songs alone would be enough to make a pretty serious case for his greatness and importance, and they make a convenient and highly symbolic "ending" to the "romantic era." But the famous tone poems hold no interest for me.
+1. (though I need to hear the operas)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 27, 2013, 01:49:31 PM
Popular or Unpopular, the music of Richard Strauss is what opened my ears to the world of classical over 20 years ago, I will always credit him with this and will forever consider him one of my favorite composers. I find his music exhilarating, expansive and rewarding. Also my favorite scores to follow are from Strauss.

And it's alright by me, one of the biggest Strauss supporters here, if someone doesn't agree with my analysis of Strauss. But one day when you need a musical laugh, checkout Till. When you need motivation or extra courage, listen to Heldenleben. When you're in the need to travel somewhere far away, put on Alpine. When you're in the mood for a good story, play Quixote or even Domestica. How about a virtuosos concerto, try the horn concertos. Dramatic opera? Covered, Elektra and Salome. Challenge the soul and mind with Metamorphosen. Or relax your body with the Duett-Concertino.

Long live classical music, my friends.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 27, 2013, 01:53:46 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 27, 2013, 01:49:31 PMHow about a virtuosos concerto, try the horn concertos.
Oh! I forgot, I really like the Burleske.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 27, 2013, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 27, 2013, 01:26:37 PM
Honestly, this is way off. $:) Among Mozart fans ("those who know better than the average Joe") the list of recognizably accomplished works which predate the "late" period is stacked up like a log-jam.

You'll hardly find a true Mozartian who doesn't enjoy such early works (or early-ish, anyway) as the violin concertos, the early masses, or the serenades (the Haffner in particular).

The "middle" period is populated by such works as Idomeneo, the Posthorn Serenade, and the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola (not to mention the first of his "Haydn" string quartets).

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So much more to explore.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 27, 2013, 01:49:31 PM
Popular or Unpopular, the music of Richard Strauss is what opened my ears to the world of classical over 20 years ago, I will always credit him with this and will forever consider him one of my favorite composers. I find his music exhilarating, expansive and rewarding. Also my favorite scores to follow are from Strauss.

And it's alright by me, one of the biggest Strauss supporters here, if someone doesn't agree with my analysis of Strauss. But one day when you need a musical laugh, checkout Till. When you need motivation or extra courage, listen to Heldenleben. When you're in the need to travel somewhere far away, put on Alpine. When you're in the mood for a good story, play Quixote or even Domestica. How about a virtuosos concerto, try the horn concertos. Dramatic opera? Covered, Elektra and Salome. Challenge the soul and mind with Metamorphosen. Or relax your body with the Duett-Concertino.

Long live classical music, my friends.  :)

This being the Unpopular Opinion thread, I didn't feel right about contradicting the, uh..wrong-headed opinions about Strauss and Mozart on display here. But I'm glad you guys did  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 27, 2013, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 27, 2013, 01:54:20 PM
This being the Unpopular Opinion thread, I didn't feel right about contradicting the, uh..wrong-headed opinions about Strauss and Mozart on display here. But I'm glad you guys did  ;D

Sarge

;D

The Strauss bit got to me too but I bit my tongue. Couldn't hold it for the Mozart, though... 0:)



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on August 27, 2013, 03:24:16 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 26, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
I'm actually going to jump aboard the Richard Strauss hate-train too. And you guys have already identified the two Strauss works I prize above all others: Metamorphosen and the Four Last Songs. There's no shame in that, honestly; the Four Last Songs alone would be enough to make a pretty serious case for his greatness and importance, and they make a convenient and highly symbolic "ending" to the "romantic era." But the famous tone poems hold no interest for me.

I wouldn't say I hate Richard Strauss' music, but he's definitely not a composer I frequently listen to or even think about other than to say I don't care for his music. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on August 27, 2013, 07:09:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 27, 2013, 03:24:16 PM
I wouldn't say I hate Richard Strauss' music, but he's definitely not a composer I frequently listen to or even think about other than to say I don't care for his music. :)
But where would record producers and Stanley Kubrick be without the opening to Also sprach Zarathustra? ;D

I'm not as fond of Strauss as I might be; I can do without most of his late music (even the oboe concerto!).  I have to admit, though, that he struck gold with the end of Tod und Verklaerung.  Yeah, it's manipulative--but it gets me every time.  Weird. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on August 27, 2013, 07:11:42 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 27, 2013, 07:09:38 PM
But where would record producers and Stanley Kubrick be without the opening to Also sprach Zarathustra? ;D

Haha...that's true! :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on August 27, 2013, 10:56:11 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 27, 2013, 01:26:37 PM
Honestly, this is way off. $:) Among Mozart fans ("those who know better than the average Joe") the list of recognizably accomplished works which predate the "late" period is stacked up like a log-jam.

You'll hardly find a true Mozartian who doesn't enjoy such early works (or early-ish, anyway) as the violin concertos, the early masses, or the serenades (the Haffner in particular).

The "middle" period is populated by such works as Idomeneo, the Posthorn Serenade, and the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola (not to mention the first of his "Haydn" string quartets).

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So much more to explore.

In my defence, I said 'later'. Much of Mozart's aura as a child genius was thanks to his father's impressive PR work. So while a lot of people may think everything starting from K. 1 is a gem (and he wrote a LOT! -- lovely music, much of it, no doubt), he began to bloom into the composer that we adore only in his late teens. 15 years later, he died. 15 years in an average life-span may be considered the 'late' period, but for Mozart it was over a third of his life. I'm just making a distinction between the 'performing monkey' era, which has contributed a lot to his popular image as a 'genius', and the other part, which is what you are (and I was, implicitly) referring to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 28, 2013, 01:51:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 27, 2013, 01:54:20 PM
This being the Unpopular Opinion thread, I didn't feel right about contradicting the, uh..wrong-headed opinions about Strauss and Mozart on display here. But I'm glad you guys did  ;D

Sarge
Post of the day!! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 28, 2013, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Silk on August 26, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
I think Mozart is very over-rated.  Apart from the last few symphonies, a couple of the piano sonatas, the Mass in C, two or three of the operas, the Gran Partita for Winds and some chamber music it's all so sweet and the endless tonality and saccharine quality has me reaching for something more 'savory'.  Like eating a meal that is all black forest cake.  At my stage much of Mozart is too easy-listening for me, but I was a big fan 30 years ago.  Now my musical tastes have matured and I've left him largely behind, apart from the wonderful works I've mentioned.

Mozart-bashing, unpopular? Hardly ever.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 28, 2013, 09:37:06 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 27, 2013, 10:56:11 PM
In my defence, I said 'later'. Much of Mozart's aura as a child genius was thanks to his father's impressive PR work. So while a lot of people may think everything starting from K. 1 is a gem (and he wrote a LOT! -- lovely music, much of it, no doubt), he began to bloom into the composer that we adore only in his late teens. 15 years later, he died. 15 years in an average life-span may be considered the 'late' period, but for Mozart it was over a third of his life. I'm just making a distinction between the 'performing monkey' era, which has contributed a lot to his popular image as a 'genius', and the other part, which is what you are (and I was, implicitly) referring to.

What you're describing is Mozart's "juvenilia". His juvenile years. There's little point as I see it in knocking him for that (or any composer for that matter).

Post-juvenilia Mozart is bursting at the seams with extremely fine works, right from the get-go.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 28, 2013, 02:26:54 PM
I understand the "egotistical" quality of Strauss' music- it might not be intentional, but I get that sense when I listen to it, which I don't get with Mahler, Wagner, or Bruckner. Maybe his disposition was a bit too sane to be writing Late Romantic music that gets under your skin, like the music of the other three. I like his music, but it doesn't have that edge to it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: otare on August 28, 2013, 11:39:15 PM
I don't know if it is an unpopular opinion, but I have just been listening to the box of Van Cliburn's recordings, and I am wondering why I bothered. What an overrated pianist! Very limited repertoire, and from what I hear he only knew how to play Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. His Beethoven and Chopin is heavy-handed and totally out of style. His Brahms and Debussy is boring. He didn't make many recordings, and I really wonder why he was allowed to make any at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on August 29, 2013, 06:59:46 AM
I haven't bothered with his recordings, but it is possible that he coasted on that Tchaikovsky Competition win for his whole career. Pianists who stick to the Chopin/Rach/Liszt, etc group of Romantic composers are a dime a dozen, and typically demonstrate a limited range of creativity.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on August 29, 2013, 09:30:40 AM
Quote from: otare on August 28, 2013, 11:39:15 PM
I don't know if it is an unpopular opinion, but I have just been listening to the box of Van Cliburn's recordings, and I am wondering why I bothered. What an overrated pianist! Very limited repertoire, and from what I hear he only knew how to play Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. His Beethoven and Chopin is heavy-handed and totally out of style. His Brahms and Debussy is boring. He didn't make many recordings, and I really wonder why he was allowed to make any at all.

Must be that little competition he won that made him an overnight global sensation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 29, 2013, 10:19:58 AM
Quote from: otare on August 28, 2013, 11:39:15 PM
I don't know if it is an unpopular opinion, but I have just been listening to the box of Van Cliburn's recordings, and I am wondering why I bothered. What an overrated pianist! Very limited repertoire, and from what I hear he only knew how to play Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. His Beethoven and Chopin is heavy-handed and totally out of style. His Brahms and Debussy is boring. He didn't make many recordings, and I really wonder why he was allowed to make any at all.

Quote from: The Six on August 29, 2013, 06:59:46 AM
I haven't bothered with his recordings, but it is possible that he coasted on that Tchaikovsky Competition win for his whole career. Pianists who stick to the Chopin/Rach/Liszt, etc group of Romantic composers are a dime a dozen, and typically demonstrate a limited range of creativity.

Van Cliburn suffered from a debilitating bout of performance nerves that dogged him his entire career. He didn't ask for his instant stardom after his Tchaikovsky competition win but at that particular moment in history he somehow managed to overcome his demons and put on a show that won over probably one of the most critical of audiences (Moscow) in a competition that was - to say the least - close to the hearts of the hometown crew. During the Cold War.

You want extreme pressure-cooker, that was it.

Of course, post-competition things changed and his performance apprehensions took control and things were never the same. And no doubt this carried over into the recording studio.

It's actually a sad tale but one that's not deserving derision. ::) 
 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: otare on August 29, 2013, 11:52:25 AM
You are probably right. I'm sure there are reasons for his poor performances on record. Let's just say that his recordings are not of a very high standard for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 29, 2013, 12:09:30 PM
Quote from: otare on August 29, 2013, 11:52:25 AM
You are probably right. I'm sure there are reasons for his poor performances on record. Let's just say that his recordings are not of a very high standard for whatever reason.

Yeah, the halo of the Tchaikovsky competition win seems to carry a lot of weight but there's still just Cliburn the man to consider.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: otare on August 30, 2013, 08:55:26 AM
And suddenly he redeems himself with a fantastic recording of Rachmaninovs 2. piano sonata. Rachmaninov was truly his soulmate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on August 30, 2013, 04:28:05 PM
What about Van's live performances?  Perhaps he's one of those musicians whose best work was done outside the studio... (I've never seen him in concert, and I'm trying to think if I've ever heard a broadcast of him playing live--none comes to mind...)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 30, 2013, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: otare on August 30, 2013, 08:55:26 AM
And suddenly he redeems himself with a fantastic recording of Rachmaninovs 2. piano sonata. Rachmaninov was truly his soulmate.

:D


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Superhorn on August 30, 2013, 04:33:53 PM
    People who are repelled by the supposed bombast and  egotism of Ein Heldenleben  are missing the point .  Few realize that it's actually a humorous and satirical work filled with in jokes .  In it Strauss poles fun at the  critics who were always trashing his music , and the  egotistical heroism is entirely tongue in cheek .
   
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: xochitl on August 30, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
i can never take gershwin seriously and his music bores me more often than not

sometimes i think handel was miles better than bach

i can't stand schumann's solo piano music

rachmaninov was a better melodist than tchaikovsky [and i adore tchaikovsky!]

frank zappa was one of the greatest composers of the 20th century

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Silk on September 02, 2013, 03:38:31 AM
Gershwin didn't write 'classical music' - his was music for the theater, essentially.  Just thought I'd mention that.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on September 02, 2013, 04:01:30 AM
Quote from: Silk on September 02, 2013, 03:38:31 AM
Gershwin didn't write 'classical music' - his was music for the theater, essentially.  Just thought I'd mention that.

Wagner and Verdi wrote music for the theater, I suppose they didn't compose classical music either? :-[
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on September 02, 2013, 04:06:08 AM
Quote from: xochitl on August 30, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
i can never take gershwin seriously and his music bores me more often than not

Most of it was never meant to be taken "seriously"; neither was Mozart's Divertimenti, Strauss' waltzes or Haydn's symphonies. That doesn't make it lesser music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on September 02, 2013, 04:07:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 02, 2013, 04:01:30 AM
Wagner and Verdi wrote music for the theater, I suppose they didn't compose classical music either? :-[
They didn't write for the theatre, but for the opera. Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but for me there is a difference.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on September 02, 2013, 12:37:39 PM
Quote from: xochitl on August 30, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
i can't stand schumann's solo piano music

And here I am feeling that his solo music represents Schumann at his best. 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 02, 2013, 01:36:40 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 02, 2013, 12:37:39 PM
And here I am feeling that his solo music represents Schumann at his best. 8)

Ditto.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on September 02, 2013, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 02, 2013, 12:37:39 PM
And here I am feeling that his solo music represents Schumann at his best. 8)

No contradiction if he hates Schumann's other works even more.

It has taken me some effort to come to appreciate Schumann's piano music, although it was clear from the beginning that the solo piano works were the his more original and distinctive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: xochitl on September 02, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
just wanna clarify i really like schumann's chamber and orchestral music

the piano stuff just sounds to me like a crazy person flying free
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Opus106 on September 02, 2013, 11:55:58 PM
Quote from: xochitl on September 02, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
the piano stuff just sounds to me like a crazy person flying free

That's the nub. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on September 03, 2013, 12:06:02 AM
Quote from: xochitl on September 02, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
the piano stuff just sounds to me like a crazy person flying free
That's what makes it so great. The best artists often aren't the most normal people. That's the nub as Opus106 said.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 03, 2013, 02:39:22 AM
Schumann's best work is Frauenliebe und Leben, not sure if that qualifies as unpopular, but it's my opinion.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: dyn on September 03, 2013, 02:53:34 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 03, 2013, 02:39:22 AM
Schumann's best work is Frauenliebe und Leben, not sure if that qualifies as unpopular, but it's my opinion.  :)

I have fond memories of that work, it being the first time (that i can recall) that a piece of music moved me to tears... although I don't seem to actually have a recording of it at present... hmm. Should change that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 03, 2013, 06:39:06 AM
Quote from: The new erato on September 03, 2013, 12:06:02 AM
That's what makes it so great. The best artists often aren't the most normal people. That's the nub as Opus106 said.

+1.

On topic: Schumann's best work is the first of the Three Romances for Oboe and Piano op. 93.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: max on September 05, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Since Vivaldi composed the same concerto six hundred times according to that illustrious genius of the 20th century Igor Stravinsky, I've memorized all his concertos in 3 movements...even the ones I haven't heard and found it amazingly stimulating compared to all it variety found in Igor.

It's the perfect example of making the most out of the least in V's case as compared to making the least out of the most. I always prefer "economy" in music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on September 05, 2013, 06:54:11 PM
Quote from: max on September 05, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Since Vivaldi composed the same concerto six hundred times according to that illustrious genius of the 20th century Igor Stravinsky, I've memorized all his concertos in 3 movements...even the ones I haven't heard and found it amazingly stimulating compared to all it variety found in Igor.

It's the perfect example of making the most out of the least in V's case as compared to making the least out of the most. I always prefer "economy" in music.
Within those "six hundred" concertos is amazing variety, compelling drama and deep heart.  None of us who love Vivaldi has to apologize or defend him.  I say only, Listen! 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: max on September 05, 2013, 08:50:06 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on September 05, 2013, 06:54:11 PM
Within those "six hundred" concertos is amazing variety, compelling drama and deep heart.  None of us who love Vivaldi has to apologize or defend him.  I say only, Listen! 8)

Precisely! And if I don't have 600 concertos I probably have 599 of which no two are the same. His religious works too often show a profundity and dept which doesn't easily yield beside many of the works of Bach and Handel. Each of these giants, which includes Vivaldi, has their own unmistakable sound signature.   
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jut1972 on September 06, 2013, 05:09:34 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 29, 2013, 12:09:30 PM
Yeah, the halo of the Tchaikovsky competition win seems to carry a lot of weight but there's still just Cliburn the man to consider.

That Van Cliburn box is a bit of a chore to get through.  Kept dipping in and out but doubt any CD will get a second spin.  When I can tell a performance isnt all that then it really isnt all that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 06, 2013, 11:59:51 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on September 05, 2013, 06:54:11 PM
Within those "six hundred" concertos is amazing variety, compelling drama and deep heart.  None of us who love Vivaldi has to apologize or defend him.  I say only, Listen! 8)

Quote from: max on September 05, 2013, 08:50:06 PM
Precisely! And if I don't have 600 concertos I probably have 599 of which no two are the same. His religious works too often show a profundity and dept which doesn't easily yield beside many of the works of Bach and Handel. Each of these giants, which includes Vivaldi, has their own unmistakable sound signature.   

+1.

But then again, Tartini and Locatelli are far beyond and above Vivaldi!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: max on September 06, 2013, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: Florestan on September 06, 2013, 11:59:51 AM
+1.

But then again, Tartini and Locatelli are far beyond and above Vivaldi!  ;D

Definitely got to get more Locatelli and especially Tartini. The older I get the more I like baroque. I wonder if there's a relationship?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on September 06, 2013, 03:42:37 PM
Quote from: max on September 06, 2013, 03:05:07 PM
Definitely got to get more Locatelli and especially Tartini. The older I get the more I like baroque. I wonder if there's a relationship?
I hope it's not because, like me, you're going "baroque." ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on January 15, 2014, 03:44:55 PM
This is not my unpopular opinion, but it's one with which I broadly agree -- with reservations -- and (I think) a more thoughtful one than average. Thought it might be interesting to share to see if it provokes any substantive reactions.

http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/26th-august-2000/41/music

The presentation of the text, stripped of formatting and paragraph breaks, is subpar; I recommend scrolling down to the scanned image from the original magazine, on the right, and clicking on "Zoom page".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 15, 2014, 08:56:02 PM
I can already feel the DSCH 10 sinking and Shosty fading...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2014, 03:39:13 AM
Thanks for posting this!

There's a lot of opinion in there, to which he (she?) is entitled. The thesis (I don't care for it much, so I predict it is destined for obscurity) is but the most recent [well, no . . . that was published back in August 2000] tedious instance of wishful thinking in print.

This line, though, is close to intelligent discussion:

Quote from: Robin HollowayThe terrible nature of Shostakovich's circumstances mustn't prevent a balanced response to his actual notes.

I broadly agree that there is, in the promotional activities, too much emphasis on the biography.  I agree that the important thing is the music, and that lurid biographical detail will not make the music great, if the music of itself be not great.

Where I disagree, of course, is in contending that when a good balance is achieved, the great value of such a significant portion of the catalogue will stand intact.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2014, 04:34:39 AM
In principle, I agree.  In the free market of musical ideas, arguably Shostakovich's stock is benefiting from a bubble.  The question (which the free market will determine over time) is, the actual value of the concern.  IMO, Holloway -- indeed, his entire apparent purpose is this thesis -- tendentiously undervalues it;  i.e., Holloway does not strike for balance, either.  Or, like Fox News, his idea of "balance" is, anyone who agrees with him  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2014, 06:53:33 AM
Ooh, I shall have a look at that 'un there . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 16, 2014, 06:00:17 PM
Quote from: amw on January 15, 2014, 03:44:55 PM
This is not my unpopular opinion, but it's one with which I broadly agree -- with reservations -- and (I think) a more thoughtful one than average. Thought it might be interesting to share to see if it provokes any substantive reactions.

http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/26th-august-2000/41/music

The presentation of the text, stripped of formatting and paragraph breaks, is subpar; I recommend scrolling down to the scanned image from the original magazine, on the right, and clicking on "Zoom page".
I disagree.  I sense that the very bleakness that the article's author decries is part of the music's greatness.  Yet certainly there is plenty of life too.  May I direct your attention to the Festive Overture, the finale of Symphonies #10 and #13, and the whole of Symphonies #1 and #4 for examples of life and joy in DSCH's oeuvre. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 17, 2014, 02:31:10 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 16, 2014, 06:50:55 AM
I thought I'd contribute this article to the general discussion that revolves around the claim that classical music is elitist or is an endangered genre or is irrelevant to most people.

Whenever I hear words like "relevant" or "important," I always want to ask, "relevant or important to whom?" (http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/how-to-be-culturally-relevant/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=how-to-be-culturally-relevant)

Classical music has been elitist (entertainment for upper classes) and it has elitist image in people's mind for that. However, classical music isn't elitist anymore. Today internet connection, curiosity and an open mind are all you need to browse the treasures of classical music. In western countries the internet connection part is easy. Curiosity and an open mind are harder and therefor important to work for.

Since classical music isn't elitist anymore, why do we still have the categorical separaration between classical music and "other music"? Music genres are different anyway. Country is so different from hip hop and Reggae is so different from death metal. Why can't we cram classical music amongst "other music"? It would ease the prejudice of classical music being "unsuitable for me".

Fans of classical music should not mock popular music in general. That will only widen the gap between "elitist" fans of classical music and fans of popular music. Calling popular music vulgar is not different from calling classical music elitist. It's the same kind of narrow-mindness both ways.

Sure, most popular music is bad. The main reason for that is it's "manufactured" to meet the preferences of people whose preferences were controlled by music that was "manufactured" to meet the preferences of people whose preferences were controlled by music that was ... (degenerative feedback). Luckily there's opposite feedbacks too to balance thing. That's why there's always artists whose music is good because the degenerative feedback was been weaker.

Is Fauré's Pavane better music than Katy Perry's Firework? How many hours Fauré spend composing his Pavane? How many hours were spend to produce Katy Perry's Firework? So far Fauré has survived the test of time. Katy Perry's Firework will probably been forgotten within 20 years. In spite of this, I must say I get more out of Firework than Pavane and I say this as a Fauré fan. Fauré has of course much better works but Pavane is classified as "elitist" music. The quality of Pavane and Firework is very different. In fact, to me it's meaningless to compare these to because it's apples and oranges. I listen to both Fauré and Katy. That makes my life worth living.  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jut1972 on January 17, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
I think elitist is the wrong word.  Overly intellectual is more apt.
Why do we debate the merits of this performance or that performance?  The reviews which harp on about departure from metronome readings as if it's really important and vital to the merit of the piece.

Why do you listen to music?  To relax, to enjoy.. to make an emotional connection with the music itself?
The intellectual debate we become bogged down in just widens the gap between us and that state of being.

You don't see pop fans debating the merits of a Beatles Hamburg 62 performance or a 66 Wembley Stadium gig of the same song, they just enjoy the craft. 

The elitism is intellectual flim flam, and new joiners to this wonderful world need to steer clear to avoid it's traps.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 17, 2014, 01:33:56 PM
Quote from: jut1972 on January 17, 2014, 01:30:34 PMYou don't see pop fans debating the merits of a Beatles Hamburg 62 performance or a 66 Wembley Stadium gig of the same song, they just enjoy the craft.

You haven't looked in the right places.

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/crazy_straws.png) (http://xkcd.com/1095/)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on January 17, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
Music isn't elitist, it's the people who are. You can easily find elitists in pop/rock music circles - people who think they have better taste because they prefer one band over another, liked a certain band before they got popular, etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 17, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
Quote from: jut1972 on January 17, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
You don't see pop fans debating the merits of a Beatles Hamburg 62 performance or a 66 Wembley Stadium gig of the same song, they just enjoy the craft. 

Are you kidding? Come join me on a Tori Amos forum some time and you will see people nominating favourite performances of particular songs from a selection of sometimes several hundred options.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on January 18, 2014, 01:47:34 AM
Quote from: The Six on January 17, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
Music isn't elitist, it's the people who are. You can easily find elitists in pop/rock music circles - people who think they have better taste because they prefer one band over another, liked a certain band before they got popular, etc.

Inverse snobbery is more prevalent in popular music I think, those who want to go with the crowd and are suspicious of anyone who knows something that is really less known.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on January 18, 2014, 01:59:18 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 17, 2014, 02:31:10 AM
Classical music has been elitist (entertainment for upper classes) and it has elitist image in people's mind for that. However, classical music isn't elitist anymore. Today internet connection, curiosity and an open mind are all you need to browse the treasures of classical music. In western countries the internet connection part is easy. Curiosity and an open mind are harder and therefor important to work for.

Since classical music isn't elitist anymore, why do we still have the categorical separaration between classical music and "other music"? Music genres are different anyway. Country is so different from hip hop and Reggae is so different from death metal. Why can't we cram classical music amongst "other music"? It would ease the prejudice of classical music being "unsuitable for me".

Fans of classical music should not mock popular music in general. That will only widen the gap between "elitist" fans of classical music and fans of popular music. Calling popular music vulgar is not different from calling classical music elitist. It's the same kind of narrow-mindness both ways.

Sure, most popular music is bad. The main reason for that is it's "manufactured" to meet the preferences of people whose preferences were controlled by music that was "manufactured" to meet the preferences of people whose preferences were controlled by music that was ... (degenerative feedback). Luckily there's opposite feedbacks too to balance thing. That's why there's always artists whose music is good because the degenerative feedback was been weaker.

Is Fauré's Pavane better music than Katy Perry's Firework? How many hours Fauré spend composing his Pavane? How many hours were spend to produce Katy Perry's Firework? So far Fauré has survived the test of time. Katy Perry's Firework will probably been forgotten within 20 years. In spite of this, I must say I get more out of Firework than Pavane and I say this as a Fauré fan. Fauré has of course much better works but Pavane is classified as "elitist" music. The quality of Pavane and Firework is very different. In fact, to me it's meaningless to compare these to because it's apples and oranges. I listen to both Fauré and Katy. That makes my life worth living.  0:)

I agree with a great deal of this.  It's just that I'm not sure necessarily the more time spent on something the better and more long lasting it will be.  That probably relates to the idea that the bigger and more ambitious something is the better it is supposed to be, which I think is faulty logic.  There's plenty of overwrought big works which because of their ambition have plenty of faults, and smaller less ambitious pieces could be better in some ways in their achievement.

As you say no point comparing music in different styles, just enjoy the best of every style.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 02:36:33 AM
Quote from: The Six on January 17, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
You can easily find elitists in pop/rock music circles - people who think they have better taste because they prefer one band over another, liked a certain band before they got popular, etc.

Yes, it's common to say you prefer the music of a band before they got very popular. Sometimes there's ground for that if the band has compromised their art for commercial success.

Another common thing is to prefer "early stuff" over "later stuff". People let the early work define the artist for them meaning change/progress is almost prohibited. For example it's common among Tangerine Dream fans to say the band went downhill after the Virgin years. When I got into Tangerine Dream 6 years ago, first I avoided the releases of 90's because so many fans say it's sucks (it has flamengo guitar and saxophone blah blah...). Well, when I finally explored those releases I didn't find them bad at all, on the contrary I was pleased how different the music was compared to Tangerine Dream's music of 70's and 80's. It was just different, some kind of energetic "rocking" new age. Tangerine Dream has been making music for over 40 years now. Of course they have gone thru many phases and styles. Otherwise they would not be creative.

There's sad elitism/snobbism among the many genres and subgenres of underground electronic dance music. House DJs doen't play Trance and Old Skool DJs don't play Neurofunk. Genres and subgenres get inbred, dull and deprived. Artists balancing between underground and mainstream are often the most interesting. They are creative and have the edge of underground but also allow themselves various styles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 03:01:21 AM
Quote from: starrynight on January 18, 2014, 01:59:18 AM
It's just that I'm not sure necessarily the more time spent on something the better and more long lasting it will be.

Well, "silly" pop songs can sometimes be serious creative process by very talented individuals. The fact that these pop songs will be forgotten within a few decades in spite of their quality is because something else (new music) will be marketed to people and hardly anyone will be interested of what happened few decades earlier. Even classical music suffers from this. The music of Philipp Wolfrum (1854-1919) is pretty much forgotten.

Quote from: starrynight on January 18, 2014, 01:59:18 AMAs you say no point comparing music in different styles, just enjoy the best of every style.

That's why I have been on the quest to find the best of every style for the last 15-20 years. Life is too short to find all of it but who cares?  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jut1972 on January 18, 2014, 04:58:26 AM
71db, I think you'll appreciate this:

http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/#
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 18, 2014, 05:03:16 AM
Quote from: orfeo on January 17, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
Are you kidding? Come join me on a Tori Amos forum some time and you will see people nominating favourite performances of particular songs from a selection of sometimes several hundred options.

Yup, or the need to collect every Miles Davis live album and debate about which solos are the best-improvised.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on January 18, 2014, 05:10:32 AM
People can actually be completely ignorant of earlier music and just jump on board when somebody gets hyped like that's the cool thing to do.  And then they all crowd together and pat each other on the back and reassure each other that the hyped album is as good as they say it is.  That's what annoys me most about popular music now.  That's what happened with, for example, Oneohtrix Point Never's Replica.  I don't actually get his stuff from that album onwards at all.  Fashion is just like a kind of peer pressure and it's very evident with young people and popular music.  I'm not sure it's as big in classical music, the focus is more diffuse for more people with the centuries of music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2014, 08:53:00 AM
Quote from: jut1972 on January 17, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
Why do we debate the merits of this performance or that performance?  The reviews which harp on about departure from metronome readings as if it's really important and vital to the merit of the piece.

I don't think there's necessarily a single answer to this question.

One of the answers, though, is the natural process of increased discernment, the longer one lives with music.  Back at an early age, some of us might not have known the difference in tone between a clarinet and a trumpet.  A lifelong engagement with music implies (or I think it ought, anyway) a never-ending game of learning to discern more and more.  (What one does with the differences which one learns to discern, can be quite another matter.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sammy on January 18, 2014, 10:04:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 03:01:21 AM
Well, "silly" pop songs can sometimes be serious creative process by very talented individuals. The fact that these pop songs will be forgotten within a few decades in spite of their quality is because something else (new music) will be marketed to people and hardly anyone will be interested of what happened few decades earlier. Even classical music suffers from this. The music of Philipp Wolfrum (1854-1919) is pretty much forgotten.

Who is he?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on January 18, 2014, 10:35:12 AM
Quote from: Sammy on January 18, 2014, 10:04:01 AM
Who is he?
Exactly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 03:15:27 PM
Quote from: jut1972 on January 18, 2014, 04:58:26 AM
71db, I think you'll appreciate this:

http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/#

Yeah, thanks. It's cool. Never realised jazz was that big up until 60's.  ???

Quote from: Sammy on January 18, 2014, 10:04:01 AM
Who is he?

Philipp Wolfrum was Bavarian organist/composer and a friend of Richard Strauss and Max Reger. Wolfrum supported Reger's music and gave Reger's funeral oration. Elgar admired Wolfrum, whose Weinachtsmysterium he conducted in 1901 at a Worcestershire Philharmonic Society concert.

There's one disc of Wolfrum's organ sonatas (Martin Sander/MDG) and I have it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on January 18, 2014, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 02:36:33 AM
Yes, it's common to say you prefer the music of a band before they got very popular. Sometimes there's ground for that if the band has compromised their art for commercial success.

Another common thing is to prefer "early stuff" over "later stuff". People let the early work define the artist for them meaning change/progress is almost prohibited. For example it's common among Tangerine Dream fans to say the band went downhill after the Virgin years.


And to illustrate your point from another direction,  there are pop/rock musicians who don't change enough, and who produce, if not replicas of their early stuff ,  songs at least remarkably similar to their earlier work.   Case in point--Bruce Springsteen,  whose basic style has not (to my ears) changed fundamentally since I was first a fan of his back in the late 70s/early 80s--and who went on to produce music that might be substantially varied, but not substantially different, from the songs he produced then.  For me, his best album was probably The River.  As a result,  I stopped following him closely, and now when I go back to the stuff I loved back in my twenties,  I found it somewhat stale and dull--apparently I've changed enough that what appealed to me then does not now, or at least only intermittently. 
And now his latest release is actually a compilation of recordings from throughout his career,  originally rejected, or now simply covered in new performances, as if he's admitting he has nothing new to say at this point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 03:32:56 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2014, 05:01:11 PM
And to illustrate your point from another direction,  there are pop/rock musicians who don't change enough, and who produce, if not replicas of their early stuff ,  songs at least remarkably similar to their earlier work.   Case in point--Bruce Springsteen,  whose basic style has not (to my ears) changed fundamentally since I was first a fan of his back in the late 70s/early 80s--and who went on to produce music that might be substantially varied, but not substantially different, from the songs he produced then.  For me, his best album was probably The River.  As a result,  I stopped following him closely, and now when I go back to the stuff I loved back in my twenties,  I found it somewhat stale and dull--apparently I've changed enough that what appealed to me then does not now, or at least only intermittently. 
And now his latest release is actually a compilation of recordings from throughout his career,  originally rejected, or now simply covered in new performances, as if he's admitting he has nothing new to say at this point.

Well, I have never been a Bruce Springsteen fan. I think I have heard some of his song from 25 years back when he probably had the most successful phase of his career. Those songs don't interest me a bit. It's music for people who have different taste I have. Bruce Springsteen must be very good at what he does but it doesn't seem to for me.

Now, I'm not surpriced to hear this from someone who has been following Bruce Springsteen's career. What you say makes perfect sense to me. It corresponds with the image* I have of Bruce Springsteen.

When exploring new artists I always try to "see" beyond the song I am hearing because one track is always just a part of the whole picture. I'm asking myself what kind person/group of people would produce this kind of music? What kind of music could they make? It seems one can deduct a lot from just one track! I am a bit surprised about this. Let's say you hear the biggest hit from nth album of  band X (usually it's one of the biggest hits you hear on radio or so). It's easy to find out when this band started, how old the members are and when their nth album was released. Biggest hits are often more "radio friendly" than other songs on an album. So, you can predict the tone of the whole album.

Okay, so you know when the members where born. From this you can derive what kind of influences they had. From the song you heard you can derive what influences are prominent (aah, these guys are influenced by blue grass masters etc.). Okay, but what kind of people who have these influences would produce this kind of song for their nth album that was released in year Y, y years after they started as a band? This is fuzzy logic and human brain is extremely good at solving fuzzy equations if one is willing to use their head. All the music, artists and bands you have explored before provide you with a "data space" that helps you form a fuzzy solution to the question.

The answer you come up can be badly skewed, but it may tell you already whether the artist in question is worth your time. If you feel it is, you can explore a bit more. The more songs you hear, the more accurate solution you can "calculate".

In my case this fuzzy logic method works well (not 100% but over 50% of the time), much better than taking recommendations from other people. Another benefit is that if your fuzzy solution of a band is accurate, you may be able "predict" changes in style etc so that the new album of band X isn't that shocking to you. You where ready for it!


*Here "image" means the image people have of things they don't know much about and/or don't understand much.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: arkiv on January 19, 2014, 06:52:47 AM
Today classical musicians can not improvise on their instruments as the past instrumentists did.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on January 19, 2014, 05:46:31 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 03:32:56 AM

When exploring new artists I always try to "see" beyond the song I am hearing because one track is always just a part of the whole picture. I'm asking myself what kind person/group of people would produce this kind of music? What kind of music could they make?
[interesting but too long for a quote discussion of fuzzy logic cut because the reader can find it two replies above--JS]
In my case this fuzzy logic method works well (not 100% but over 50% of the time), much better than taking recommendations from other people. Another benefit is that if your fuzzy solution of a band is accurate, you may be able "predict" changes in style etc so that the new album of band X isn't that shocking to you. You where ready for it!

My problem with that approach is that I usually don't know enough about the background of the musicians involved to parse any of that information out; nor, since most of my listening to pop/rock music is in the form of background music/music while I'm driving,  do I pay attention to any of the barest things like genre and lyrics.  Even as a kid, my listening was overwhelmingly classical and opera, and much of pop/rock even of that era simply passed me by.  Was musician X influenced by bluegrass in his youth?  Heck, I'm not sure I could say what bluegrass is, to differentiate it from, eg.  country western/country rock/rockabilly music.

I do find that knowing the opinions of other people about particular performances does help me predict my reaction to that performance,  if I know enough about their tastes to begin with and how they compare with me.  Your opinions have no predictive value for me at the moment because, beyond your opinion of Elgar and "pop", I don't know much of your musical tastes, so I can't say if the fact that you like composer T's Symphony No. N indicates that I would or would not like it in my turn.  John (Mirror Image), OTOH,  does have predictive value, since I know he seems to have similar tastes to mine,  once I take into account that his tolerance of "modern" (=not traditional tonality) music is far higher than mine.  So if he likes that Symphony No. N,  my ears  perk up, so to speak. But this is a measure of familiarity with people's tastes, and nothing more.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 10:07:53 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:46:31 PM
My problem with that approach is that I usually don't know enough about the background of the musicians involved to parse any of that information out; nor, since most of my listening to pop/rock music is in the form of background music/music while I'm driving,  do I pay attention to any of the barest things like genre and lyrics.  Even as a kid, my listening was overwhelmingly classical and opera, and much of pop/rock even of that era simply passed me by.  Was musician X influenced by bluegrass in his youth?  Heck, I'm not sure I could say what bluegrass is, to differentiate it from, eg.  country western/country rock/rockabilly music.

There is no reason to apply any fuzzy logic if you aren't interested exploring in the first place. "Bluegrass" can be anything you think bluegrass is (your mental image of the term) and it was just an example. You can use concepts you know yourself, like "this sounds a lot like Elvis Presley".

It's like fitting a curve to the data you have. the less data you have, the simpler curve you can fit. Let's say you know:

y( 2 ) = 8, y( 5 ) = 210 and y( 8 ) = 618.

You can fit a second order polynomial (parabel y(x) = a*x2+b*x+c) to this set of three data points. When you do that you come up with the solution:

y(x) = 10*x2 + 6*x - 70

Now you have a function to estimate y(x) "anywhere".

Now, exploring new music you don't use exact math but fuzzy logic, your mental images instead of y(x). You do that all the time you think (make a decision of when to buy a new car etc.) but you can learn to use it effectively for exploring new music, if want that is.


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:46:31 PMI do find that knowing the opinions of other people about particular performances does help me predict my reaction to that performance,  if I know enough about their tastes to begin with and how they compare with me.

Well, that is true. Performances can be evaluated with pretty exact terms like "fast". If you like your Beethoven played fast and someone tells you performance X is fast, you can predict it's for you. Exploring new music is different. It is for the most part finding new things about yourself. It's like "Oh, I never knew I like bluegrass but I do!". If you can't predict those things, how can other people?

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:46:31 PMYour opinions have no predictive value for me at the moment because, beyond your opinion of Elgar and "pop", I don't know much of your musical tastes, so I can't say if the fact that you like composer T's Symphony No. N indicates that I would or would not like it in my turn.  John (Mirror Image), OTOH,  does have predictive value, since I know he seems to have similar tastes to mine,  once I take into account that his tolerance of "modern" (=not traditional tonality) music is far higher than mine.  So if he likes that Symphony No. N,  my ears  perk up, so to speak. But this is a measure of familiarity with people's tastes, and nothing more.

Sorry if I am not helpful to you in any way. I have always found it difficult to find my place in the world, find my purpose. I envy people who have found their place and are respected.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on January 20, 2014, 06:15:33 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 10:07:53 PM


Sorry if I am not helpful to you in any way. I have always found it difficult to find my place in the world, find my purpose. I envy people who have found their place and are respected.

No need to be sorry about a fact that's not your fault!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on January 20, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 16, 2014, 04:14:10 AM
I too agree that Shostakovich's achievement will stand intact; what exactly his legacy will ultimately become is impossible to say.  What resonated with me the strongest was the author's opinion that Shostakovich's stock has been inflated. 

I think I was drawn to the article for a few reasons—first of all high praise for the 14th symphony, a piece that isn't talked about nearly enough; second of all finally! someone else who thinks the Op. 87 is pallid, formulaic, soporific and in general one of Shostakovich's least interesting piano pieces! (Though a few of them are fun to play.); third of all recognition that Shostakovich has become more a symbol than a composer, hence the conflating of artist and man and the lack of "balanced response to the actual notes". We hang a lot of spiritual weight on Shostakovich—he is, at present, probably the most important 20th century composer—and to a certain extent this reflects more his quasi-legendary status than the actual music he wrote. Never mind what you or I might think of that music; he himself might not have approved of a composition like (say) the Fifth or Seventh Symphonies or the Festival Overture being performed and lauded, music he wrote under duress and while intentionally hobbling himself in order to avoid official censure, while more experimental, forward-looking compositions like the Fourth Symphony, of which he was especially proud, remain comparatively obscure.

Anyway, the thread has moved on, and since you all seem to be discussing things in a calm and civilised manner with no name-calling and hair-pulling whatsoever, I suppose I will have to be the one to wade in with random (yet on-topic) pointless inflammatory comments and distract everyone.

Gesualdo is overrated! Salieri is underrated! Prokofiev's Symphony-Concerto is his greatest work! Donizetti's operas are better than Wagner's! Vladimir Horowitz was not that great! Mstislav Rostropovich and Isaac Stern may have been good musicians, but their tone is so unpleasant I can't stand listening to them! I like Glenn Gould's Mozart sonatas! White chocolate is better than milk chocolate! (etc)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 04:53:12 AM
Quote from: amw on January 20, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
. . . second of all finally! someone else who thinks the Op. 87 is pallid, formulaic, soporific and in general one of Shostakovich's least interesting piano pieces!

Well, your post is certainly in the spirit of the thread.  But let's say there are people who think exactly the same of Bach's WTC (pallid, formulaic, soporific and in general uninteresting):  Is theirs the correct/better/more informed opinion?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 05:10:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 10:07:53 PM
. . . Now, exploring new music you don't use exact math but fuzzy logic . . . .

I think I understand you, but fuzzy logic sounds pejorative (and lawd knows I've seen some of it, even here on GMG ;) . . . .)

But, you only mean that logic has a different sort of exactitude than that of mathematics, yes?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 05:12:14 AM
Quote from: epicous on January 19, 2014, 06:52:47 AM
Today classical musicians can not improvise on their instruments as the past instrumentists did.

True. Today's musicians improvise better ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 21, 2014, 05:24:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 21, 2014, 05:10:42 AM
I think I understand you, but fuzzy logic sounds pejorative (and lawd knows I've seen some of it, even here on GMG ;) . . . .)

But, you only mean that logic has a different sort of exactitude than that of mathematics, yes?
I'd say he means that it uses a different sort of mathematics ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2014, 05:28:35 AM
Quote from: jut1972 on January 17, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
You don't see pop fans debating the merits of a Beatles Hamburg 62 performance or a 66 Wembley Stadium gig of the same song, they just enjoy the craft.

Quote from: orfeo on January 17, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
Are you kidding? Come join me on a Tori Amos forum some time and you will see people nominating favourite performances of particular songs from a selection of sometimes several hundred options.

Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2014, 05:03:16 AM
Yup, or the need to collect every Miles Davis live album and debate about which solos are the best-improvised.

Jut has apparently never met a Deadhead.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2014, 06:15:03 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2014, 05:28:35 AM
Jut has apparently never met a Deadhead.

Sarge

True!

There are Rock-n-Roll aficionados who will debate with each other all day about e.g. the Bangles vs. the Go-Go's, Sting vs. Phil Collins, the Big Bopper vs. Commander Cody  ??? ??? ???   vinyl vs. CD's, etc. etc. etc.

Such characters were satirized by the Jack Black character in High Fidelity.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 06:27:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 21, 2014, 06:15:03 AM
Such characters were satirized by the Jack Black character in High Fidelity.

High Fidelity is a documentary!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 08:49:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 21, 2014, 05:10:42 AM
I think I understand you, but fuzzy logic sounds pejorative (and lawd knows I've seen some of it, even here on GMG ;) . . . .)

But, you only mean that logic has a different sort of exactitude than that of mathematics, yes?

Pejorative? Really? Forget about what I said if it's too pejorative and weird to you.  :-\
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 08:54:50 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 21, 2014, 05:24:26 AM
I'd say he means that it uses a different sort of mathematics ;)

You guys haven't heard or fuzzy logic?  :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic)

I mean you can use pretty "mathematical" methods but it must be of course "fuzzy logic" in our heads.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2014, 08:56:26 AM
Quote from: amw on January 20, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
I think I was drawn to the article for a few reasons—first of all high praise for the 14th symphony, a piece that isn't talked about nearly enough; second of all finally! someone else who thinks the Op. 87 is pallid, formulaic, soporific and in general one of Shostakovich's least interesting piano pieces! (Though a few of them are fun to play.); third of all recognition that Shostakovich has become more a symbol than a composer, hence the conflating of artist and man and the lack of "balanced response to the actual notes". We hang a lot of spiritual weight on Shostakovich—he is, at present, probably the most important 20th century composer—and to a certain extent this reflects more his quasi-legendary status than the actual music he wrote. Never mind what you or I might think of that music; he himself might not have approved of a composition like (say) the Fifth or Seventh Symphonies or the Festival Overture being performed and lauded, music he wrote under duress and while intentionally hobbling himself in order to avoid official censure, while more experimental, forward-looking compositions like the Fourth Symphony, of which he was especially proud, remain comparatively obscure.


I don't think that the Fourth can be thought of as obscure nowadays--certainly it's better known than several other of his symphonies.  And he wrote works like the Fifth intending them to be more accessible, and the fact that he intended to win official approval with them doesn't mean he considered them junk.  And I think the evidence is too thin on the ground to say which works he churned out to comply with official demands and no other reason (Song of the Forests, maybe, and some other works produced obviously for official use,  but even with them the evidence is mostly circumstantial).
Quote
Gesualdo is overrated! Salieri is underrated! Prokofiev's Symphony-Concerto is his greatest work! Donizetti's operas are better than Wagner's! Vladimir Horowitz was not that great! Mstislav Rostropovich and Isaac Stern may have been good musicians, but their tone is so unpleasant I can't stand listening to them! I like Glenn Gould's Mozart sonatas! White chocolate is better than milk chocolate! (etc)

Statements I bolded are ones with which I agree and therefore are indisputably correct :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 21, 2014, 09:05:47 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 08:54:50 AM
You guys haven't heard or fuzzy logic?  :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic)

I mean you can use pretty "mathematical" methods but it must be of course "fuzzy logic" in our heads.
Yes, that's what I meant. Reminds me of Schrödinger's cat.

Quote from: amw on January 20, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
I think I was drawn to the article for a few reasons—first of all high praise for the 14th symphony, a piece that isn't talked about nearly enough[.]

Anyway, the thread has moved on, and since you all seem to be discussing things in a calm and civilised manner with no name-calling and hair-pulling whatsoever, I suppose I will have to be the one to wade in with random (yet on-topic) pointless inflammatory comments and distract everyone.

Gesualdo is overrated! Salieri is underrated! Prokofiev's Symphony-Concerto is his greatest work! Donizetti's operas are better than Wagner's! Vladimir Horowitz was not that great! Mstislav Rostropovich and Isaac Stern may have been good musicians, but their tone is so unpleasant I can't stand listening to them! I like Glenn Gould's Mozart sonatas! White chocolate is better than milk chocolate! (etc)
The 14th symphony is one of my absolute favourites, but white chocolate is an abomination.  >:D  0:)

As for greatest Proky work, I'd nominate Romeo & Juliet, PC no. 2 and The Fiery Angel.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 09:21:35 AM
I like the Op.125 very well, but I couldn't rank it his best piece. (Apt to agree with Karlo on the Op.64.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 08:54:50 AM
You guys haven't heard or fuzzy logic?  :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic)

Well, why should I have?  I'm a composer :)

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Pejorative and weird are distinct ideas.  If you meant them as synonymous (perhaps you did not), that is what I should normally take as "fuzzy logic" ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on January 21, 2014, 09:27:56 AM
White chocolate isn't even chocolate. You can't compare it to milk chocolate!

Also, Shostakovitch's preludes and fugues are better than Bach's.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 21, 2014, 09:24:20 AM
Well, why should I have?  I'm a composer :)

Thanks for the enlightenment.

You are welcome Karl. Yes, you are a composer, but that doesn't mean you can't know some things outside music.  ;)

I thought everybody knew what fuzzy logic is. I was shocked to find out couple of years ago my working pal didn't know what fractals are. He had never heard of Mandelbrot! :o People know different things...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 21, 2014, 10:18:41 AM
Quote from: amw on January 20, 2014, 11:20:22 PMWhite chocolate is better than milk chocolate! (etc)
Dark > white > milk for me.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 10:19:31 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 10:15:23 AM
You are welcome Karl. Yes, you are a composer, but that doesn't mean you can't know some things outside music.  ;)

Oh, I agree. I do know what fractals are  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2014, 10:24:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 10:15:23 AM
You are welcome Karl. Yes, you are a composer, but that doesn't mean you can't know some things outside music.  ;)

I thought everybody knew what fuzzy logic is. I was shocked to find out couple of years ago my working pal didn't know what fractals are. He had never heard of Mandelbrot! :o People know different things...

In this case, fuzzy logic has both exoteric and esoteric meanings.  The esoteric--which is better phrased as technical--meaning is the way you use it; but the exoteric--meaning taking the words at face value--merely means failed attempts at logical argumentation,  such as abound on political blogs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 11:20:06 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2014, 10:24:45 AM
In this case, fuzzy logic has both exoteric and esoteric meanings.  The esoteric--which is better phrased as technical--meaning is the way you use it; but the exoteric--meaning taking the words at face value--merely means failed attempts at logical argumentation,  such as abound on political blogs.

Yes, but if you know the esoteric meaning you know that's what people mean by fuzzy logic, or is my logic fuzzy here?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 11:23:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 21, 2014, 10:19:31 AM
I do know what fractals are  :)

That's good.  0:)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2014, 11:38:03 AM
Quote from: amw on January 20, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
I like Glenn Gould's Mozart sonatas!

So do me and the boys  8) ...especially his K.331  ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2014, 12:21:38 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 11:20:06 AM
Yes, but if you know the esoteric meaning you know that's what people mean by fuzzy logic, or is my logic fuzzy here?  ;D

Actually, I prefer woolly, pastel logic!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 01:59:53 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 21, 2014, 12:21:38 PM
Actually, I prefer woolly, pastel logic!

woolly, pastel logic = Ke$ha's head?  ::)

http://blog.sfgate.com/dailydish/wp-content/blogs.dir/2247/files/2014/01/kesha3.jpg (http://blog.sfgate.com/dailydish/wp-content/blogs.dir/2247/files/2014/01/kesha3.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2014, 03:25:22 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 01:59:53 PM
woolly, pastel logic = Ke$ha's head?  ::)

http://blog.sfgate.com/dailydish/wp-content/blogs.dir/2247/files/2014/01/kesha3.jpg (http://blog.sfgate.com/dailydish/wp-content/blogs.dir/2247/files/2014/01/kesha3.jpg)

That 63 I.Q. gaze is something else!   0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 11:48:01 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 21, 2014, 03:25:22 PM
That 63 I.Q. gaze is something else!   0:)

Yes, most of the time Ke$ha looks like her IQ was 63. Look is deceiving. Ke$ha is actually VERY smart, her IQ is said to be 140+ (scale unknown, but that's high on any scale).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 22, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
Quote from: epicous on January 19, 2014, 06:52:47 AM
Today classical musicians can not improvise on their instruments as the past instrumentists did.
Some of us can! But I didn't learn to improvise in music school, but by improvising.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 26, 2014, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2014, 11:38:03 AM
So do me and the boys  8) ...especially his K.331  ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)

My first reaction to it was "The guy's fucking outta his minds!'

My second reaction was "Well, one can play it this way too, after all!"

My third and final reaction was "That is fucking great, actually!"

(Please excuse my French  ;D ).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jay F on January 27, 2014, 08:03:25 AM
My unpopular opinions:

1. I don't like Haydn, Mendelssohn, or Debussy, nor a lot of the Music That Meanders I mistake for Debussy when I hear it on the radio.

2. Brendel plays a lot of my piano favorites. I don't find him BrenDULL at all.

3. My favorite Beethoven piano sonateur -- is this a word? -- is Paul Lewis, who allowed me to hear this music for the first time, something Gilels, Arrau, and Kempff were unable to do 30 years ago. I like Schiff's, too.

4. My favorite Beethoven String Quartets are by the Emersons. I previously liked the first Lindsay series a lot, and the Juilliards on LP before those, and more recently, the Takacs, though I can't say I actually listened to the Takacs much once I put them on the shelf. I listen to the Emersons a lot, OTOH, as I did with the Lindsays in the '80s. I think this music transcends the "My favorite version kicks your favorite version's ass" concept that attaches to a lot of classical music. Just as I've never heard a bad Mozart Piano Concerto, I can't think of a version of Beethoven's SQs I haven't wanted to listen to. Of course, I haven't heard most of them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on January 27, 2014, 08:15:27 AM
Quote from: Jay F on January 27, 2014, 08:03:25 AM
3. My favorite Beethoven piano sonateur -- is this a word?

It is now.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 27, 2014, 08:45:14 AM
Quote from: Jay F on January 27, 2014, 08:03:25 AM
2. Brendel plays a lot of my piano favorites. I don't find him BrenDULL at all.
Right as I type this I'm listening to Brendel play the final movement of Schumann's Fantasy in C, Op. 17. It's probably my favorite performance of this movement; luminous, slow but not indulgent, a nocturne.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on January 27, 2014, 05:32:35 PM
Quote from: Jay F on January 27, 2014, 08:03:25 AM
My unpopular opinions:

1. I don't like Haydn, Mendelssohn, or Debussy, nor a lot of the Music That Meanders I mistake for Debussy when I hear it on the radio.

Boo! Hiss!
Although there is some truth to the term "Music that meanders"--it's just that IMO Debussy knew when to meander and how far he could go on meandering.

Quote
2. Brendel plays a lot of my piano favorites. I don't find him BrenDULL at all.

3. My favorite Beethoven piano sonateur -- is this a word? -- is Paul Lewis, who allowed me to hear this music for the first time, something Gilels, Arrau, and Kempff were unable to do 30 years ago. I like Schiff's, too.
Full agreement on Number 2.  I do like Lewis and Schiff, although I'm not sure I would call them my favorite recordings of the sonatas.  Of course, I'm not sure I have a favorite recording of the full cycle. 
Given Lewis' relationship to Brendel, it's not surprising that if you like Brendel you will like Lewis.  Are you familiar with his Schubert?
Quote
4. My favorite Beethoven String Quartets are by the Emersons. I previously liked the first Lindsay series a lot, and the Juilliards on LP before those, and more recently, the Takacs, though I can't say I actually listened to the Takacs much once I put them on the shelf. I listen to the Emersons a lot, OTOH, as I did with the Lindsays in the '80s. I think this music transcends the "My favorite version kicks your favorite version's ass" concept that attaches to a lot of classical music. Just as I've never heard a bad Mozart Piano Concerto, I can't think of a version of Beethoven's SQs I haven't wanted to listen to. Of course, I haven't heard most of them.
Sort of agreement here: I do have some recordings of the quartets that I prefer to others, but usually not by a huge amount, and I too can't think of a quartet recording I have actually disliked--which also describes my attitude to the piano sonatas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2014, 05:41:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 27, 2014, 05:32:35 PM
Boo! Hiss!
Although there is some truth to the term "Music that meanders"--it's just that IMO Debussy knew when to meander and how far he could go on meandering.

I find his meandering better considered than some other composers' purposeful travel itineraries . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 28, 2014, 10:04:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2014, 05:41:10 AM
I find his meandering better considered than some other composers' purposeful travel itineraries . . . .
Word.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2014, 10:08:14 AM
Quote from: Jay F on January 27, 2014, 08:03:25 AM
My unpopular opinions:

1. I don't like Haydn, Mendelssohn, or Debussy, nor a lot of the Music That Meanders I mistake for Debussy when I hear it on the radio.


I am still trying to figure out if you are accusing Haydn of meandering. You would be the very first one I ever heard of!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2014, 10:36:02 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 28, 2014, 10:11:29 AM
Relax, Gurn, he was only referring to Debussy as the Meanderer -

he calls him the Meanderer, the Meanderer, he roams around, around, around.

;)

Oh, I wasn't upset, just puzzled. Grammatically puzzled, I suppose. If there is someone who doesn't meander, it's Haydn!   :D

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 29, 2014, 02:35:04 AM
This thread keeps inspiring me to go listen to some Shostakovich. And buy more of his symphonies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: RJR on February 14, 2014, 05:08:53 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 15, 2011, 07:58:37 AM
How?! Taking Mahler for example - he wrote no solo music, but (here is another what may be unpopular opinion)
MAHLER IS THE GREATEST COMPOSER OF ALL!

I am sure many of you will disagree with me, and hopefully some will agree as well. But this is a view I definitely believe!

haha :) I could talk to anyone who loves Mahler for many hours! :) I am fascinated by his collection - which complete cycles does he have? Don't suppose you could upload a photo of it to one of the 'cd collection' threads here?
Glad that you will still listen to Mahler too! The Bartok/Boulez set is resting in my amazon basket at the moment, after the move from the wishlist. Looking forward to hearing it.
Mahler?!
Bull Shit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on February 15, 2014, 03:57:23 AM
Seinfeld isn't that great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on February 15, 2014, 04:15:15 AM
Seinfeld is far from great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 15, 2014, 04:16:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 15, 2014, 03:57:23 AM
Seinfeld isn't that great.

I like Seinfeld, but I don't think it's aged very well. Now every once in a while I catch a Cheers episode, and I feel as if that show could make it on today's TV.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on February 15, 2014, 04:18:04 AM
I should probably watch some Cheers . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 15, 2014, 04:19:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 15, 2014, 04:18:04 AM
I should probably watch some Cheers . . . .

I used to watch that show all the time, Shelly Long was good, but Kirstie Alley was a great companion to Ted Danson's Sam. Great friction, and chemistry.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on February 15, 2014, 04:21:01 AM
If that show on DVD is not at the BPL, I'll make one of my sisters into chowder . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on February 15, 2014, 06:53:07 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 15, 2014, 04:16:49 AM
I like Seinfeld, but I don't think it's aged very well. Now every once in a while I catch a Cheers episode, and I feel as if that show could make it on today's TV.

I never cared much for Cheers, so we're all different. My favorite sitcoms are Seinfeld, Everybody Loves Raymond, Frasier, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Wings, and Becker.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on February 20, 2014, 05:12:21 PM
Schubert's Trout quintet is lousy.

Shostakovich's preludes and fugues are his best music.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: EigenUser on February 20, 2014, 07:42:51 PM
Quote from: North Star on February 15, 2014, 04:15:15 AM
Seinfeld is far from great.
>:D

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2014, 06:53:07 AM
I never cared much for Cheers, so we're all different. My favorite sitcoms are Seinfeld, Everybody Loves Raymond, Frasier, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Wings, and Becker.

"Seinfeld" and "Everybody Loves Raymond" are two of my favorite sitcoms.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on February 20, 2014, 07:46:23 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on February 20, 2014, 07:42:51 PM

"Seinfeld" and "Everybody Loves Raymond" are two of my favorite sitcoms.

A man of fine tastes. ;) But, seriously, these two sitcoms always leave me wanting more. I would say, though, that my favorite sitcom is probably Frasier for the simple reason that I think the character development and those moments of seriousness were some of the best in any sitcom I've seen. I have watched Seasons 1-11 all the through twice already and I plan on doing it again whenever I get the chance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on February 21, 2014, 09:53:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 20, 2014, 07:46:23 PM
A man of fine tastes. ;) But, seriously, these two sitcoms always leave me wanting more. I would say, though, that my favorite sitcom is probably Frasier for the simple reason that I think the character development and those moments of seriousness were some of the best in any sitcom I've seen. I have watched Seasons 1-11 all the through twice already and I plan on doing it again whenever I get the chance.

Though I haven't watched it nearly as much as you,  I agree with you about why Frasier was such a good show.  Raymond had a good number of those moments, too.  I never did like Seinfeld--it seemed to be too self-referential (as in I always expect one or more of the characters to turn to the audience and say "look how funny we are over such a trivial and tedious thing!".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PaulSC on February 21, 2014, 10:07:06 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 20, 2014, 05:12:21 PM
Schubert's Trout quintet is lousy.

Shostakovich's preludes and fugues are his best music.
I'm with you on both of these opinions!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on February 21, 2014, 10:46:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2014, 06:53:07 AM
I never cared much for Cheers, so we're all different. My favorite sitcoms are Seinfeld, Everybody Loves Raymond, Frasier, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Wings, and Becker.

Interesting that 3 of your 6 favorites have strong connections to Cheers. You might also like Taxi and The Tortellis. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on February 21, 2014, 10:57:10 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 20, 2014, 05:12:21 PM
....
Shostakovich's preludes and fugues are his best music.
Fully agree on this one...moreover, I'd say Opus 87 is one of only a handful of compositions by DSCH that can actually be called "good"... ::)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on February 21, 2014, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: ritter on February 21, 2014, 10:57:10 AM
Fully agree on this one...moreover, I'd say Opus 87 is one of only a handful of compositions by DSCH that can actually be called "good"... ::)

Quite correct.  There is a large percentage of his work which must be called "great" and not merely "good".   :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on February 21, 2014, 11:40:29 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 21, 2014, 11:11:49 AM
Quite correct.  There is a large percentage of his work which must be called "great" and not merely "good".   :D
;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on February 21, 2014, 06:27:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 21, 2014, 09:53:13 AM
Though I haven't watched it nearly as much as you,  I agree with you about why Frasier was such a good show.  Raymond had a good number of those moments, too.  I never did like Seinfeld--it seemed to be too self-referential (as in I always expect one or more of the characters to turn to the audience and say "look how funny we are over such a trivial and tedious thing!".

Seinfeld has plenty of people who genuinely just dislike the show. I, however, thought it was brilliant and I love Curb Your Enthusiasm as well, but I just like Larry David in general anyway. He's such an asshole, but he's a funny asshole. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on February 21, 2014, 06:29:49 PM
Quote from: Pat B on February 21, 2014, 10:46:45 AM
Interesting that 3 of your 6 favorites have strong connections to Cheers. You might also like Taxi and The Tortellis. ;)

I just didn't care much for the characters of Cheers. I didn't even think much of Frasier Crane until he was taken out of that stinking bar and thrown into Seattle. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on February 21, 2014, 06:33:41 PM
Quote from: ritter link=topic=19564.msg778474#http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CSHCJIO/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 date=1393012630
Fully agree on this one...moreover, I'd say Opus 87 is one of only a handful of compositions by DSCH that can actually be called "good"... ::)
Careful! That guy used to be a favourite of John's.
>:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on February 21, 2014, 07:07:39 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 21, 2014, 10:07:06 AM
I'm with you on both of these opinions!
Quote from: ritter on February 21, 2014, 10:57:10 AM
Fully agree on this one...
Careful now, this isn't the popular opinions thread... :o
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on February 21, 2014, 07:23:26 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 21, 2014, 06:33:41 PM
Careful! That guy used to be a favourite of John's.
>:D >:D >:D

He's a still an absolute favorite and I'll fight with anyone who makes fun of him! ;) ;D Leave my Shosty alone people!!!!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on February 21, 2014, 07:50:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 21, 2014, 07:23:26 PM
He's a still an absolute favorite and I'll fight with anyone who makes fun of him! ;) ;D Leave my Shosty alone people!!!!
I have a terrific Shosty joke, but it requires sound effects.

The only other good music joke I know is this.

A man walks into a bar and sits at the counter.
"Give me an Elgar."
"What's an elgar?"
"Brahms and water."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on February 21, 2014, 09:32:57 PM
Uh-oh.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on February 22, 2014, 01:41:25 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 21, 2014, 07:50:41 PM
I have a terrific Shosty joke, but it requires sound effects.

The only other good music joke I know is this.

A man walks into a bar and sits at the counter.
"Give me an Elgar."
"What's an elgar?"
"Brahms and water."

Well, Sibelius would be just the water, of course...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on February 22, 2014, 06:06:45 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 22, 2014, 01:41:25 AM
Well, Sibelius would be just the water, of course...
Ha! That's what he said about himself! Nicely played North Star.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on February 28, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 22, 2014, 01:41:25 AM
Well, Sibelius would be just the water, of course...
Mostly of the frozen type, but over a volcanic hot spring... ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 14, 2014, 02:22:21 AM
When I browsed through this thread a few weeks ago someone had posted a link to an older article by some contemporary british composer (whose name I forgot) that was very critical about Shostakovich. I seem to be unable to find it without going through 50 pages of thread. Does anyone remember the link or name of the composer?

EDIT: Found it, it's amw's reply #913. the comment linked is by Robin Holloway dating from 2000.
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/26th-august-2000/41/music
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 14, 2014, 06:31:57 AM
In Scotland they lowered the voting age to 16 from 18. The drinking age is 18.
Better would have been to lower the drinking age and raise the voting age.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 14, 2014, 06:37:04 AM
Quote from: Ken B on September 14, 2014, 06:31:57 AM
In Scotland they lowered the voting age to 16 from 18. The drinking age is 18.
Better would have been to lower the drinking age and raise the voting age.
That is a peculiar interpretation of the meaning of the word 'better'.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 14, 2014, 07:09:23 AM
In Germany the voting age (age of majority) used to be 21 until about 1975. Now it's 18 as had been the age for driving cars and military service before. Smoking/Drinking age is nuanced between 16 (no hard liquor) and 18 (now also for smoking/buying tobacco, this used to be 16 until a few years ago). But to my knowledge this is not enforced as strictly as in many other countries. Until a few years ago one could buy cigarettes from vending machines without proof of age (one only had to be tall enough to reach the slot, probably most 10 year olds are).
For some communal/regional bodies the active voting age was lowered to 16 in some regions, but 18 still applies for all important elections.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2014, 10:53:49 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 14, 2014, 02:22:21 AM
When I browsed through this thread a few weeks ago someone had posted a link to an older article by some contemporary british composer (whose name I forgot) that was very critical about Shostakovich. I seem to be unable to find it without going through 50 pages of thread. Does anyone remember the link or name of the composer?

EDIT: Found it, it's amw's reply #913. the comment linked is by Robin Holloway dating from 2000.
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/26th-august-2000/41/music

It's also important to remember that Holloway's opinion is just that an opinion. Having heard some of his music, I have to say I'm not particularly impressed with his music and so his negative thoughts on Shostakovich mirror my own about his music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 14, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2014, 10:53:49 AM
It's also important to remember that Holloway's opinion is just that an opinion.
I'd say it's barely an opinion.  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2014, 11:52:20 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 14, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
I'd say it's barely an opinion.  0:)

Yeah, more like a rant.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 14, 2014, 12:22:02 PM
Holloway should have gone more into detail, but I do find his view interesting nevertheless. He is very probably not a great composer himself, so his opinion should not carry much weight because of his "rank", but neither does he seem to reject most of Shostakovich's music because he belongs to some "school" or because of some general prejudice against non-avantgarde music. His points are not a very deep criticism, but I can understand a few of them (even if I do not share all of his impressions).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Luke on September 14, 2014, 12:33:46 PM
Holloway may or may not be a great composer (personally I actually think he is an extremely fine one, and I would think that even if he hadn't taught me and been generally a key figure in my own musical education), but he certainly has an extremely deep and comprehensive knowledge of the entire extended repertoire, and I don't know him ever to have tossed out any of his opinions without being able to back them up thoroughly and persuasively. I'd actually suggest that he is rare among composers in the completeness of his total and thorough immersion in the repertoire (e.g. I think I know my Janacek, but turns out he knows it much more deeply than I do). When he taught me he had some pretty outrageous things to say about all sorts of pieces - but you could always see where he came from, even if you disagreed. The flip side, too, was his obvious, almost spiritual devotion to so much else. Disagree, fine, he would only expect and welcome that, but don't dismiss his opinions as unfounded.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 14, 2014, 12:59:25 PM
I don't know anything about Holloway, but his reasons for not thinking much of Shostakovich, as he has written on that piece, don't seem to amount to anything substantial - he's not as colourful as the colourists, "a rapid degeneration from innocent cheerfulness via terse grimness to the long- drawn-out torture by excruciation and vacancy of the final works" in the string quartets, "neutral or indeed repellent: battleship-grey in melody and harmony, factory-functional in structure; in content all rhetoric and coercion, exercises or instructions in communal lament and celebration, rendered by portentous slow music and mirthless fast music, nearly identical from work to work, coarsely if effectively scored, executed with horrifying fluency and competence, kept unflaggingly going long after its natural cut-off point had passed", " habitual harshness, meanness, over-emphasis"

I would like to see what are Holloway's foundations for these arguments. And why should Shostakovich be as colourful as the colourists, and how are the "intended comparisons" Haydn, Beethoven, and Mahler - especially since Holloway goes on to say that "There simply hasn't been a Shostakovich-shaped niche" - if those are the closest comparisons, I'd say the Shostakovich-shaped niche is certainly there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Luke on September 14, 2014, 01:07:07 PM
My point is that, in the real world, there are some people who might profess an opinion with which I disagree who I will happily grant that they know what they are talking about, and that maybe I ought to take what they've said as an invitation to re-examine things I thought I knew. Holloway is one of those people. As far as Shostakovich goes, I love him, I don't agree with Holloway about him, particularly about the Preludes and Fugues...but then I look at Holloway's own contrapuntal keyboard writing (e.g. his Bach-inspired Gilded Goldberg's) and think, well, this man knows what he is talking about, I can't just dismiss his opinions as easily as that. And I can see at least the germ of Holloway's point in every single one of the passages you quote, although I draw different conclusions from them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2014, 01:10:40 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 14, 2014, 12:59:25 PM
I don't know anything about Holloway, but his reasons for not thinking much of Shostakovich, as he has written on that piece, don't seem to amount to anything substantial - he's not as colourful as the colourists, "a rapid degeneration from innocent cheerfulness via terse grimness to the long- drawn-out torture by excruciation and vacancy of the final works" in the string quartets, "neutral or indeed repellent: battleship-grey in melody and harmony, factory-functional in structure; in content all rhetoric and coercion, exercises or instructions in communal lament and celebration, rendered by portentous slow music and mirthless fast music, nearly identical from work to work, coarsely if effectively scored, executed with horrifying fluency and competence, kept unflaggingly going long after its natural cut-off point had passed", " habitual harshness, meanness, over-emphasis"

This quote alone from Holloway's article is enough to make one bust out into laughter. He's certainly entitled to his opinions of course, but, like I said, this article was just one giant rant on why he believes he's in the minority but the reality is there's plenty of people that dislike Shostakovich as much as they dislike Ives. He's just blowing off some steam. That's the way I look at it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 14, 2014, 01:24:55 PM
Quote from: Luke on September 14, 2014, 01:07:07 PMMy point is that, in the real world, there are some people who might profess an opinion with which I disagree who I will happily grant that they know what they are talking about, and that maybe I ought to take what they've said as an invitation to re-examine things I thought I knew. Holloway is one of those people. As far as Shostakovich goes, I love him, I don't agree with Holloway about him, particularly about the Preludes and Fugues...but then I look at Holloway's own contrapuntal keyboard writing (e.g. his Bach-inspired Gilded Goldberg's) and think, well, this man knows what he is talking about, I can't just dismiss his opinions as easily as that. And I can see at least the germ of Holloway's point in every single one of the passages you quote, although I draw different conclusions from them.
I agree that I can see where he hears these things in the music, but in the end Holloway really writes more about not hearing anything special in the music, and I don't think that he's proving anything, regardless of the greatness of his musical mind, and I don't see how one should re-examine the music with thought of not hearing the same things he doesn't. But then again, I'm rarely interested in anyone's negative response to works of art.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 14, 2014, 01:27:15 PM
Well, might as well wave the red flag at the shosty bulls. Holloway's comments about the symphonies are pretty fair. 14 is a masterpiece, 1 does promise things not deilvered in many later symphonies, and as a set they are very mixed and not at the level of Mahler say. Of course those are also his official face music. But the concertos are a different story, as are the P&F and quartets.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 14, 2014, 01:31:02 PM
What if being colorless was Shostakovich's intention and it ended up being an attractive quality of his music when one is in the mood for it? I mean, when you want to portray a message as gloomy as what he writes sometimes, you don't want to make people think of the Carebears.

When it comes to negative reviews of composers who have been established for decades/centuries, there's no real point in criticism other than to express how you personally feel... I might not listen to Mozart or Rossini because most of what I've heard I seriously have no interest in, but I'm not going to say it's terrible and explain why. They write music that doesn't quite entertain me (or may even annoy me), but oh well, move on. Now, saying something about Dzorevashvili's music is another story...  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 14, 2014, 11:37:53 PM
I certainly believe that Holloway could expand his points, but a magazine article is not the place for that and so they may not be as convincingly made as they could have been.

In any case it seems that people underestimate the meteoric rise of Shostakovich's music in the last 30 years or so. When I started listening to classical music as a teenager in the mid/late '80s hardly anyone would have put him even remotely in the league of Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok or Prokofieff.
More conservative listeners dismissed him because he belonged to the "Soviets" and for fanciers of avantgarde his music was hopelessly outdated. (I find Holloway's comment interesting, because he belongs to neither fraction). Of course the political filing changed almost completely after more biographical details were known, but as Holloway points out this should not dominate the evaluation of the music.

Nowadays Shostakovich is obviously much better represented on discs and probably also in concerts than e.g. Ives, Szymanowski, Martinu, Hindemith... Of the generation around 1900 maybe only Messiaen comes close (although I doubt it).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on September 15, 2014, 12:07:11 AM
Here is maybe an unpopular opinion: most of the opinions expressed on this thread are fairly popular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on September 15, 2014, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 15, 2014, 12:07:11 AM
Here is maybe an unpopular opinion: most of the opinions expressed on this thread are fairly popular.
I pretty much agree with this (sorry to reduce your unpopularity).

A truly unpopular opinion would be something like JS Bach's music is awkward and incompetent or Beethoven is not dramatic enough or Schubert's melodies are pedestrian and lacking in interest or something.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 15, 2014, 03:18:02 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 14, 2014, 01:07:07 PM
My point is that, in the real world, there are some people who might profess an opinion with which I disagree who I will happily grant that they know what they are talking about, and that maybe I ought to take what they've said as an invitation to re-examine things I thought I knew. Holloway is one of those people. As far as Shostakovich goes, I love him, I don't agree with Holloway about him, particularly about the Preludes and Fugues...but then I look at Holloway's own contrapuntal keyboard writing (e.g. his Bach-inspired Gilded Goldberg's) and think, well, this man knows what he is talking about, I can't just dismiss his opinions as easily as that. And I can see at least the germ of Holloway's point in every single one of the passages you quote, although I draw different conclusions from them.

Regardless of questions of popularity, I find this opinion sound.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 15, 2014, 04:16:32 AM
Quote from: amw on September 15, 2014, 12:55:33 AM
I pretty much agree with this (sorry to reduce your unpopularity).

A truly unpopular opinion would be something like JS Bach's music is awkward and incompetent or Beethoven is not dramatic enough or Schubert's melodies are pedestrian and lacking in interest or something.

Earlier in the thread there are some that come close (although I am not sure if all of these were meant seriously):
JS Bach is boring.
Only about a dozen pieces of Mozart's are worthwhile.
Schumann wrote a couple of good pieces but he's probably the most overrated composer in all of music history.
Schubert wrote a few more good ones, but he's nearly as overrated as Schumann.

I am also slightly puzzled how many contributors do not seem to care for "baroque and classical" which probably means: anything before Beethoven (as I doubt there are many friends of Renaissance music who completely reject baroque).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 15, 2014, 04:22:18 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 15, 2014, 04:16:32 AM
. . . (as I doubt there are many friends of Renaissance music who completely reject baroque).

Some certainly, perhaps not many.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 15, 2014, 04:31:10 AM
To clarify: I would still be astonished how many reject music from Monteverdi through Mozart, even if they were all rabid fans of Perotin, Dufay, Josquin and Palestrina... ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on September 18, 2014, 12:25:46 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 14, 2014, 11:37:53 PM
...In any case it seems that people underestimate the meteoric rise of Shostakovich's music in the last 30 years or so. When I started listening to classical music as a teenager in the mid/late '80s hardly anyone would have put him even remotely in the league of Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok or Prokofieff.
That "meteor" had already risen.  I started my serious listening in the early 1970s, and already Shostakovich was counted among the greats, mostly for his Fifth and Seventh Symphonies and a few others.  Ormandy, Bernstein and Andre Previn were noted for programming and recording his music; it was Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra who released the first non-Russian recording of Symphony #4 in the early '60s.  Certainly in Shostakovich's reputation, there was nothing like the truly meteoric rise of Mahler's musical reputation in the Sixties (although there were always conductors who programmed Mahler's music, most notably Bruno Walter, Mahler's disciple).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on September 18, 2014, 12:26:18 PM
Quote from: springrite on September 15, 2014, 12:07:11 AM
Here is maybe an unpopular opinion: most of the opinions expressed on this thread are fairly popular.
:laugh: Indeed. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 18, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
If anybody's been on the rise in the past 30 years, it would be Sibelius (more like on the rebound!), Martinu, and most of all, Janacek.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 18, 2014, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
If anybody's been on the rise in the past 30 years, it would be Sibelius (more like on the rebound!), Martinu, and most of all, Janacek.
Yes. And all worthy too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 18, 2014, 01:45:56 PM
My biggest beef with Martinu is that many of his great works have flat, uninteresting codas/endings. I get really worked up and involved in Martinu's works, especially the works that have a constant drive throughout, and in some cases feel let down at the abrupt ending. I've felt this way with some of his chamber works and orchestral works.

But keep in mind, before I get attacked, that I did say many of his great works.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 18, 2014, 01:47:51 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 18, 2014, 01:45:56 PM
My biggest beef with Martinu is that many of his great works have flat, uninteresting codas/endings. I get really worked up and involved in Martinu's works, especially the works that have a constant drive throughout, and in some cases feel let down at the abrupt ending. I've felt this way with some of his chamber works and orchestral works.

But keep in mind, before I get attacked, that I did say many of his great works.
I initially didn't get the final chord of the Fourth Symphony. Seems a bit of a letdown vs. the triumph of the preceding bars. But the endings of 2 and 3 are perfect!

There is a really "motoric" activity in a lot of his chamber music finales where the motor stops and you don't feel a justification for why it ended there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 18, 2014, 01:48:36 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 18, 2014, 01:45:56 PM
My biggest beef with Martinu is that many of his great works have flat, uninteresting codas/endings. I get really worked up and involved in Martinu's works, especially the works that have a constant drive throughout, and in some cases feel let down at the abrupt ending. I've felt this way with some of his chamber works and orchestral works.

But keep in mind, before I get attacked, that I did say many of his great works.
Coda interruptus.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 18, 2014, 11:17:24 PM
I think this was rather different in Germany/Europe. Yes, Ormandy, Previn and a few others did Shostakovich already in the 60/70, but hardly any famous conductor from the German/Austrian tradition. Neither Abbado or Boulez. For the conservative he was a "Soviet musician", for the ones leaning to the Avantgarde he was hopelessly old-fashioned. I hardly encountered any of his music as a teenager in the late '80s. The sheer number of complete recordings of his symphonies and quartets clearly has exploded in the last 15-20 years.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on September 18, 2014, 11:59:28 PM
It seems like Shostakovich was sort of "rediscovered" around the time of Testimony, along with the defections of influential champions like Rostropovich, Maxim & Mullova. That made his music "cool" again because it was secretly anti-Communist and everything. And of course the fall of the Soviet Union opened the floodgates of ex-Soviet conductors and ensembles... plus the CD era massively increasing the amount of recorded music available.

Nonetheless, in the USSR Shostakovich was a superhero, and in the West he'd had his share of followers and detractors ever since Lennie brought the 5th over in 1940ish. His reputation's been solid for a while. For miracle-gro in the last 30 years Janáček is certainly a good example, also Szymanowski, Ligeti, Baroque composers not born in 1685, and Britten for some reason.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 19, 2014, 12:01:52 AM
Sure, he was not "re-discovered" like maybe Szymanowski, or even more Zemlinsky. (But neither of them has become remotely as popular as DSCH.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on September 19, 2014, 06:54:00 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
If anybody's been on the rise in the past 30 years, it would be Sibelius (more like on the rebound!)...
True.  During Sibelius' lifetime he was considered among the very greatest composers, but after his death his reputation took a hit, and now it does seem to be rebounding.  In my knowledge and experience, the music of most composers, great or otherwise, goes through such cycles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 19, 2014, 07:24:07 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
If anybody's been on the rise in the past 30 years, it would be Sibelius (more like on the rebound!), Martinu, and most of all, Janacek.

I agree. Also, there seems to be a real uptick of interest in Vaughan Williams, at least in the USA (don't know about elsewhere). Just in the Chicago area, there have been several VW symphony performances in the last couple of years.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 19, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 19, 2014, 07:24:07 AM
I agree. Also, there seems to be a real uptick of interest in Vaughan Williams, at least in the USA (don't know about elsewhere). Just in the Chicago area, there have been several VW symphony performances in the last couple of years.

If Atlanta can get its merde together, I shall be there for A Sea Symphony, this November.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 19, 2014, 08:44:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 19, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
If Atlanta can get its merde together, I shall be there for A Sea Symphony, this November.

That's one I had on my radar as well. But like you said, let's see if they can get it together.
This is the second lockout in 3 seasons for the ASO. Robert Spano and Runnicles even wrote a letter to the ASO board and the Woodruff Arts Board that the players have to meet with in support of coming to a swift conclusion. Most of Runnicles concerts are in September and Oct. which are in danger of being cancelled. I'm afraid if this trend continues then Runnciles might not want to make the trip to Georgia anymore.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 19, 2014, 08:45:47 AM
I'm all for expanding the orchestral repertoire to good less played music, so I approve the trends discussed here. But part of it I think stems from the retreat from HIP, as orchestras back away from Haydn, Mozart (and soon Beethoven?). Also you need to thank the minimalists for convincing the public that modern music doesn't have to be awful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 19, 2014, 08:49:46 AM
Quote from: Ken B on September 19, 2014, 08:45:47 AM
Also you need to thank the minimalists for convincing the public that modern music doesn't have to be can be dull as well as awful.

Fixed.

(Oh I don't really think that, no.  Not most of the time.)

Quote from: Ken B on September 19, 2014, 08:45:47 AM
I'm all for expanding the orchestral repertoire to good less played music, so I approve the trends discussed here. But part of it I think stems from the retreat from HIP, as orchestras back away from Haydn, Mozart (and soon Beethoven?).

A respect for HIP, maybe.

I think there will always be "big band" LvB;  and it's a valid taste, there ought always to be.  Where, while I am glad to hear the occasional Haydn symphony (and Mozart pf concerto) at Symphony Hall, more often than not I feel that it's not 100% comme il faut.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 24, 2014, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: Ken B on September 19, 2014, 08:45:47 AM
Also you need to thank the minimalists for convincing the public that modern music doesn't have to be awful.

Agreed. By writing such god-awful music themselves, composers like Reich, Adams, and Co. have shown true masters like Carter and Boulez in a far brighter light.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 24, 2014, 07:18:04 AM
:-)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Luke on September 24, 2014, 07:44:16 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 24, 2014, 07:16:04 AM
Agreed. By writing such god-awful music themselves, composers like Reich, Adams, and Co. have shown true masters like Carter and Boulez in a far brighter light.

Naughty, naughty!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 24, 2014, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 24, 2014, 07:16:04 AM
Agreed. By writing such god-awful music themselves, composers like Reich, Adams, and Co. have shown true masters like Carter and Boulez in a far brighter light.

Lol...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 24, 2014, 08:29:58 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 24, 2014, 07:45:13 AM
Lol...
I always suspected you were a closet Boulezian John.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 24, 2014, 11:59:28 AM
(Takes well-deserved bow.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 24, 2014, 03:43:36 PM
Opinions are like least favourite 20th-century composers: everybody's got one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 24, 2014, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: Ken B on September 24, 2014, 08:29:58 AM
I always suspected you were a closet Boulezian John.

:P I actually like some of John Adams music but I'm not a big fan of Minimalism in general.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: EigenUser on September 25, 2014, 06:40:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 24, 2014, 07:33:45 PM
:P I actually like some of John Adams music but I'm not a big fan of Minimalism in general.
I'm pretty much the same way, though I do really like Steve Reich. I've seen some interviews with Reich and he seems incredibly full of himself and over-confident, but still a cool guy 8). Feldman is a sort-of (pre) minimalist and is one of my favorite composers, though. I like some Nyman (MGV isn't the most interesting of pieces, but it is very exciting for me), but I could live without it. That's about it.

I suspect that over time you will end up appreciating Boulez a little more (in the same vein that I suspect that I'll come to appreciate more Schoenberg, which is already happening). It's odd that Boulez clicked for me before Schoenberg (not to mention Webern clicking before Schoenberg!).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: EigenUser on September 25, 2014, 11:38:04 AM
Quote from: James on September 25, 2014, 07:55:26 AM
I would have said Ligeti & Stockhausen instead of Boulez & Carter .. but all of them are light years ahead of "Reich, Adams, and Co."

I suspect the same. And with time I feel you will appreciate Stockhausen's music more.
*RUNS AWAY SCREAMING* :o

Seriously, though, you are probably right. It is impossible for anyone to tell exactly what they might want to listen to in five years, ten years, etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2014, 02:55:33 PM
The fact that someone labels something as "art" and talks in high-faluting nonsense about it does not automatically make it any good. cf A thread doing the rounds at the moment about elitism.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Fagotterdämmerung on December 07, 2014, 01:43:27 PM
   
    Pop music ( used in the very broadest sense, rather than the narrow spectrum of dance music that people often use "pop" for ) is far superior to minimalism in delivering highly repetitive, simplistic music artfully.

    There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined. This does not diminish the latter category in the least, but I feel if all works had existed by themselves, divorced from a name and reputation, what we listen to today would be entirely different.

   The first half of the baroque is so much more interesting than the 1700-1750 portion.

   The 12-tone system was very arbitrary, but the Second Viennese managed great music in it anyway. Seriously, Schoenberg could have gone "No, wait, I've decided my guiding principle will be this magic 8 ball and only composing while trampolining," and he still would have put out great stuff. ( I list this as unpopular as people generally go "12-tone music is garbage" or embrace the technique and its results with enthusiasm ... I think it's arbitrary, but any music mind with an arbitrary restriction placed on it should still be able to make something good. )
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on December 07, 2014, 01:56:56 PM
Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 07, 2014, 01:43:27 PM
     There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined.

Now that is an interesting opinion - but you're gonna have to give some examples...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 02:00:38 PM
Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 07, 2014, 01:43:27 PM
   
    Pop music ( used in the very broadest sense, rather than the narrow spectrum of dance music that people often use "pop" for ) is far superior to minimalism in delivering highly repetitive, simplistic music artfully.

    There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined. This does not diminish the latter category in the least, but I feel if all works had existed by themselves, divorced from a name and reputation, what we listen to today would be entirely different.

   The first half of the baroque is so much more interesting than the 1700-1750 portion.

   The 12-tone system was very arbitrary, but the Second Viennese managed great music in it anyway. Seriously, Schoenberg could have gone "No, wait, I've decided my guiding principle will be this magic 8 ball and only composing while trampolining," and he still would have put out great stuff. ( I list this as unpopular as people generally go "12-tone music is garbage" or embrace the technique and its results with enthusiasm ... I think it's arbitrary, but any music mind with an arbitrary restriction placed on it should still be able to make something good. )
Since minimalist music isn't simplistic this is like saying vodka is better at delivering a buzz than orange juice is.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 02:03:11 PM
Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 07, 2014, 01:43:27 PM
    There is far more great music in the collected works of all the rarely or never heard composers than in all the works of "great" ( i.e. well-known and respected ) composers combined. This does not diminish the latter category in the least, but I feel if all works had existed by themselves, divorced from a name and reputation, what we listen to today would be entirely different.
How do you believe the music and the composers got their reputation in the first place? Why did Count Waldstein write that the young Beethoven should receive Mozart's spirit from the hands of Haydn, not Kraus' or Joh. Chr. Bach's spirit from Albrechtsberger? Less than 20 years later with Hoffmann's writing on Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, the "classical trio" was already in place. What is the mechanism for generating such reputation if not the music?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Fagotterdämmerung on December 07, 2014, 02:24:30 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 02:03:11 PM
How do you believe the music and the composers got their reputation in the first place? Why did Count Waldstein write that the young Beethoven should receive Mozart's spirit from the hands of Haydn, not Kraus' or Joh. Chr. Bach's spirit from Albrechtsberger? Less than 20 years later with Hoffmann's writing on Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, the "classical trio" was already in place. What is the mechanism for generating such reputation if not the music?

Obviously music plays a part in generating a musician's reputation ( as do friends, fans, the taste of a given era, level of self-promotion, etc. )

As I said originally, the presence of talented but less-famous composers is not a detraction from the big names, it's simply than there is a lot more quality music written by the second tier because there is simply more of them.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 02:36:03 PM
The Empire Strikes Back sucks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 07, 2014, 03:05:44 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 02:36:03 PM
The Empire Strikes Back sucks.
I JUST listened to a podcast on this subject! Here, feel validated by major critics agreeing with you. (http://thecanon.wolfpop.com/audio/20383/star-wars-vs-the-empire-strikes-back)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 03:26:17 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 07, 2014, 03:05:44 PM
I JUST listened to a podcast on this subject! Here, feel validated by major critics agreeing with you. (http://thecanon.wolfpop.com/audio/20383/star-wars-vs-the-empire-strikes-back)
Oh Brian. It is they who should feel vindicated!  8) :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Fagotterdämmerung on December 07, 2014, 04:20:22 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 02:36:03 PM
The Empire Strikes Back sucks.

It failed to address so many loose ends in the plot brought up by the Star Wars Holiday Special. I mean, what happens to Bea Arthur's Bar? Why isn't anyone singing anymore?  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 08, 2014, 12:30:24 AM
Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 07, 2014, 02:24:30 PM
As I said originally, the presence of talented but less-famous composers is not a detraction from the big names, it's simply than there is a lot more quality music written by the second tier because there is simply more of them.
I can probably agree with that. There is a lot of music, far less known which is almost as good as the really famous stuff.
So it's not fair that even the least of Beethoven's piano sonatas (probably one of op.49) is better known than ANY Clementi sonata. One could probably make the case that there are a bunch of Clementi sonatas that are better/more interesting than these Beethoven sonatinas. On the other hand, I have heard a handful or two of Clementi sonatas and other early Beethoven like op.2/3 or 10/3 is far more impressive than any Clementi I have encountered. So there is also a sense in which it is justified than even earlier or "lesser" Beethoven is regarded highly.
And as there is only a finite amount of music I can listen to, I have to draw the line somewhere...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: eoghan on December 09, 2014, 02:11:02 AM
Apart from the Grosse Fuge, all most* string quartets until Bartok sound dull, dull, dull

*need to give myself a get-out clause
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 09, 2014, 02:18:31 AM
Compared to op.133 even most after Bartok sound dull...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 09, 2014, 04:55:34 AM
Compared to Kim Basinger most of the women at the local mall seem less attractive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 09, 2014, 05:53:39 AM
Such a statement might say more about your age than you wish to reveal...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on December 09, 2014, 08:59:39 PM
Bach wrote some of the greatest music, but also some run-of-the-mill music. His keyboard suites are full of movements that repeat the same old chord progressions ad infinitum and lack originality, really are hack work. Same with many of his cantata arias with their endless repeats. When inspiration comes, it transforms everything, but inspiration does not always come to him. Whether it is there or not, he drags every movement out to its preordained length, inspired or no.

Mozart's true genius is often eclipsed by his passion for pretty little tunes. An art teacher once told me he had walked into a gallery showing Calder mobiles and when no one was looking, swirled the mobiles around and made them rotate quickly and wildly. Sometimes I'd like to do the same to a Mozart movement.   

The third movements of many Classical era symphonies are extremely dull.

Of all the great composers, Brahms is least likely to be formulaic. He almost never at all relies on the obvious way through, but creates originally and meaningfully throughout. He takes nothing for granted and struggles everywhere to break through into the unexpected, but completely logical, way forward, which he achieves. The first and last movements of his First Symphony are unprecedented, unmatched and astounding in the changes and contrasts in their development sections. Actually they are nothing but development sections throughout. There is no such thing as a restatement of the exposition because the development goes on until the last note.  The second movement is astonishingly beautiful and also not predictable.  One may be able to predict the rest of a sequence within a short section, but not at all the nature of the next section. Yet each way forward is organic and a natural outgrowth of what came before, even though unexpected.   
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 10, 2014, 06:04:16 AM
I just read an arrant absurdity, and was about to reply . . . and then I recalled what thread this is.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on December 10, 2014, 10:04:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 10, 2014, 06:04:16 AM
I just read an arrant absurdity, and was about to reply . . . and then I recalled what thread this is.

Carry on.

Quite.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 10, 2014, 11:45:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 10, 2014, 06:04:16 AM
I just read an arrant absurdity.

Just one?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 10, 2014, 11:46:11 AM
That would be telling.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on December 12, 2014, 01:14:40 PM
Oh, come on, boys, don't be bashful. Criticize it. I didn't put it up there to just stand alone. As some article that's making the rounds on the web lately about Jewish disputativeness says, disagreement is the soul of lively civilization not to mention improvement for all. Dig in and fire away. But please have reasons. And please appreciate I've been listening for over 50 years to all the composers I mention and said none of it without long experience and thought. 

I get the impression that many of the regulars here, which I am not (I drop in occasionally) have heard so many of the same things over and over from all sides that their eyes glaze over and they often just write little clever and coded jokes and asides.* If that's the case, I understand. There's only so much that can be said about a topic, even a 700- or so year history of great music. But if what I wrote stirred anything up, by all means, fire away.

* (And actually that's why I don't come too often.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 12, 2014, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 12, 2014, 01:14:40 PM
Oh, come on, boys, don't be bashful. Criticize it. I didn't put it up there to just stand alone.

For what it's worth, I like and agree with your exposition of the virtues of Brahms. So I see nothing to criticize!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on December 12, 2014, 01:33:07 PM
Okay.
Yes, Bach did hack work. (In the true sense of the phrase, most of his choral works are hack work!) But even his hack work shows immense powers of invention.

I think what you say about Brahms is now a prevalent opinion.

I disagree with you about Mozart.  But your art teacher's idea was brilliant!

I also think you are wrong about the classical symphonies....but only in the sense that first, second, and fourth movements are also likely to produce ennui.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on December 12, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 09, 2014, 08:59:39 PM
Mozart's true genius is often eclipsed by his passion for pretty little tunes.
Mozart's ability to write pretty little tunes is his true genius (well, that and his ability to assimilate other musics very quickly, while discarding the elements that are unsuitable to his personality). No other composer of the period possesses his wealth of melodic invention, not even Haydn (though he comes close). And as pretty as Mozart's tunes are, they are never formulaic or routine, and often the only thing saving otherwise banal works from oblivion (cf. the Concerto for Flute and Harp).

While we're on the subject of Brahms, Brahms was also one of the great melodists, perhaps more so even than Tchaikovsky. The main theme of the finale of the 1st symphony is infinitely superior to the Beethoven 'Ode to Joy' that it pays homage to, partly because Brahms allows it to lead naturally onwards to the next phrase rather than closing it off with a cadence. Also, the Hungarian Dances and Liebeslieder Waltzes are among his great works, even if familiarity may prevent us from noticing this.

(That said, Brahms's surviving output contains almost nothing but great works.)

Also while I'm here: Mahler's tunes are often the only redeeming parts of his symphonies. He should have given up on the orchestra and written operettas instead. Or Broadway musicals.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 12, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
The Menuetto/Scherzo movements are supposed to be rather light. That said, if great composers like Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven are at work, they are usually entertaining and captivating anyway. For what it's worth I do no think that romantic/late romantic symphonies (and similar works) fare generally better with the "light" or dance movements. Although there is a broader range from slowish intermezzi to all kinds of dances and fast scherzando-type stuff they are often sticking out in a "more serious" environment than the classical minuets within the often comical/humourous classical style.
It all depends on one's expectations. I do not find baroque suites of dances dull per se, only because they are usually strings of comparably simply structured dance movements. I do not expect double fugues, so I am not disappointed if only allemandes and gigues show up.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 12, 2014, 02:05:28 PM
I think as a melody the "big tune" from Brahms 1 is not particularly good. I find the "ode to joy" much more "natural" and tuneful, maybe because it is simpler and more folksy. The Brahms has a strange "in-between" character; it cannot really decide if it wants to be a theme "to get worked through" or a simple cantabile tune. It is also a rather subdued joy. I like his first symphony, but the finale I am not so sure about, once the "big tune" starts.

But I never understood why some people say Brahms was weak at melodies. Even in the instrumental works there are plenty of wonderful melodic inventions. Two of my favorite pieces in that respect are his first violin sonatas and the E flat major clarinet sonata.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Philo on December 12, 2014, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 12, 2014, 01:14:40 PM
* (And actually that's why I don't come too often.)

Don't let that sort of nonsense stop you. Find your niche, and you'll find your group of cohorts. It's easy enough to ignore that stuff. It's hip to be square.


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 12, 2014, 01:33:07 PM
I also think you are wrong about the classical symphonies....but only in the sense that first, second, and fourth movements are also likely to produce ennui.

;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 12, 2014, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 12, 2014, 01:14:40 PM
Oh, come on, boys, don't be bashful. Criticize it. I didn't put it up there to just stand alone. As some article that's making the rounds on the web lately about Jewish disputativeness says, disagreement is the soul of lively civilization not to mention improvement for all. Dig in and fire away. But please have reasons. And please appreciate I've been listening for over 50 years to all the composers I mention and said none of it without long experience and thought. 

I get the impression that many of the regulars here, which I am not (I drop in occasionally) have heard so many of the same things over and over from all sides that their eyes glaze over and they often just write little clever and coded jokes and asides.* If that's the case, I understand. There's only so much that can be said about a topic, even a 700- or so year history of great music. But if what I wrote stirred anything up, by all means, fire away.

* (And actually that's why I don't come too often.)

Did you write something controversial?



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on December 13, 2014, 05:24:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 12, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
The Menuetto/Scherzo movements are supposed to be rather light. That said, if great composers like Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven are at work, they are usually entertaining and captivating anyway. For what it's worth I do no think that romantic/late romantic symphonies (and similar works) fare generally better with the "light" or dance movements. Although there is a broader range from slowish intermezzi to all kinds of dances and fast scherzando-type stuff they are often sticking out in a "more serious" environment than the classical minuets within the often comical/humourous classical style.
It all depends on one's expectations. I do not find baroque suites of dances dull per se, only because they are usually strings of comparably simply structured dance movements. I do not expect double fugues, so I am not disappointed if only allemandes and gigues show up.

Many third movements in symphonies from the various eras tend toward the light and banal. But for me anyway,  the Romantic ones hold up somewhat better. With the Classical era ones, I am sorely tempted to just turn them off, as they sometimes seem so obsessively symmetrical and stuffy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on December 13, 2014, 05:40:35 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 12, 2014, 01:33:07 PM
Okay.
Yes, Bach did hack work. (In the true sense of the phrase, most of his choral works are hack work!) But even his hack work shows immense powers of invention.

I have to disagree here. In the keyboard suites for example, in the releases (the second theme that comes in the middle, what would be called a bridge (or the B section) in 30s and 40s pop music with a 32-bar AABA structure), he almost invariably uses the same limited choice of chord progressions which lead back to the main theme in the same limited number of ways. Almost any bridge in a great 30s or 40s popular song -- Porter, Rodgers, Hoagy Carmichael, Fats Waller, etc. -- has more originality than these dry dessicated husks of ideas which he pulls out and uses over, over, and over again. This is also true of the second themes in many, many of the arias in his religious works.

When he put together the B Minor Mass from his cantatas, he by and large picked out his most inspired movements, although this is true more of the choruses than the arias. I can't think of any chorus in this Mass that is not sublimely inspired, well, one or two only. When he's great, there's no one better. But he's not always at that level.

The Magnificat in D is another work that's supremely great from start to finish. Everything in it is on the highest level of inspiration and originality, including all the arias. Another one is the Musical Offering. To say that the average keyboard suite or aria from a cantata is anywhere near as great as the music in these works is unfortunately, simply inaccurate, IMO.  Craftsmanship, yes. Inspiration, no.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on December 13, 2014, 05:50:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 12, 2014, 02:05:28 PM
I think as a melody the "big tune" from Brahms 1 is not particularly good. I find the "ode to joy" much more "natural" and tuneful, maybe because it is simpler and more folksy. The Brahms has a strange "in-between" character; it cannot really decide if it wants to be a theme "to get worked through" or a simple cantabile tune. It is also a rather subdued joy. I like his first symphony, but the finale I am not so sure about, once the "big tune" starts.


I'll have more to say about the big tune and this movement soon, but need to go now.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Purusha on December 13, 2014, 06:33:17 AM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 13, 2014, 05:40:35 AM
I have to disagree here. In the keyboard suites for example, in the releases (the second theme that comes in the middle, what would be called a bridge (or the B section) in 30s and 40s pop music with a 32-bar AABA structure), he almost invariably uses the same limited choice of chord progressions which lead back to the main theme in the same limited number of ways. Almost any bridge in a great 30s or 40s popular song -- Porter, Rodgers, Hoagy Carmichael, Fats Waller, etc. -- has more originality than these dry dessicated husks of ideas which he pulls out and uses over, over, and over again. This is also true of the second themes in many, many of the arias in his religious works.

Bach is merely respecting the form. Form was an important element in western art dating back to the middle ages as well as classical times. I don't think many people realize how much formal content there was even in something as deceptively "simple" as a Christian icon. For Bach, to be an artist meant to understand form, grasp its true essence and employ it in its proper context. In a way, there's a Platonic undertone to all this.

This is an entirely different vision of art than what we are accustomed to nowadays. To be frank though, i don't think "liberating" art from form led to better music, or better art for that matter. What makes the difference to me is the creativity of the artist, not his style.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on December 13, 2014, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 12, 2014, 02:05:28 PM
I think as a melody the "big tune" from Brahms 1 is not particularly good. I find the "ode to joy" much more "natural" and tuneful, maybe because it is simpler and more folksy. The Brahms has a strange "in-between" character; it cannot really decide if it wants to be a theme "to get worked through" or a simple cantabile tune. It is also a rather subdued joy. I like his first symphony, but the finale I am not so sure about, once the "big tune" starts.

But I never understood why some people say Brahms was weak at melodies. Even in the instrumental works there are plenty of wonderful melodic inventions. Two of my favorite pieces in that respect are his first violin sonatas and the E flat major clarinet sonata.

I don't particularly like the big tune either, and think it's the corniest and least interesting thing in the symphony. Since in his three later symphonies he never saw the need to genuflect to the Beethoven Ninth in any way, it's likely and forgivable that here he thought he had to take a stab at it somehow and his heart wasn't really in it. When someone said to him it was similar to the Ode to Joy theme and he snapped, "Any ass can see that!" I wonder if he really wasn't a little angry at himself as well as his fan.

But, the variations he rings on it! As with the sublime Alpine horn theme, which I never tire of, he uses different fragments of these themes to build some of the most muscularly rhythmic, satisfying and emotionally powerful development anywhere in music. The whole last four or five minutes still astonishes me over and over again in its power and variety after many, many listenings.

I think he's a great pure melodist also, and would add the first movement of the First Piano Trio to your examples. Plus the second movement of Symphony No. 1. Not necessarily leaving out any other movements,  but have been spending time with this one recently.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2014, 11:27:45 AM
As I said, I am in two minds about the Brahms finale. On the one hand I have a lot of admiration for it. I like the dark intro and the alpine horn + choral. I also agree that the variation/development of the big tune is excitingly done. The big tune is for me a little of a letdown after the emotionally overwhelming horn call + brass chorale. And the other problem is that in a triumphant finale there is not really much room for the conflicts associated with the sonata development section, at least not in emphatic works in the tradition of Beethoven's 5th and 9th.

Brahms does a good job, but the whole thing is not entirely convincing for me whereas the three later symphonic finales and most of his chamber music are. Admittedly, with a good interpretation the music lets me forget such qualms even in the 1st symphony but I have them when I think about the piece.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Phrygian on December 13, 2014, 01:04:07 PM
I love all the Brahms symphonies equally and I disagree with Chaszz that the main theme in the 1st is "corny" - the one which is reputedly influenced by LvB.  Brahms is for me velvet and chocolate, cockles and mussels alive alive oh!!

However, I do think that the oeuvre of Brahms is inconsistent;  for example, I'm not so keen on the Piano Trios apart from the first.  The solo piano music is sometimes simplistic and lacking the form and vigour I'm used to with this composer;  some of the Hungarian Dances don't work for me at all and, spoiler alert, I don't like the German Requiem, thinking it muddy and ponderous.  In spite of this, Brahms remains in my Top 5 - a position he has maintained for the last 25 years.  (And I'll be in his birthplace, Hamburg, very shortly.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2014, 01:29:18 PM
I think Brahms is extremely consistent, at least after a bunch of early works where one could him imagine going in a different, maybe more Lisztian direction. I am not equally fond of everything either, but the "principles" seem very consistent. And of course almost half of his oeuvre is Lieder and choral music and not very widely known (I have not heard all of it either).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: not edward on December 13, 2014, 01:31:20 PM
A couple of provocative ones:

Shostakovich is most consistently successful not in symphonies or string quartets, but in his vocal works.
Beethoven's only worthwhile music for violin and orchestra is the Benedictus from the Missa solemnis.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 01:57:49 PM
Quote from: Purusha on December 13, 2014, 06:33:17 AM
Bach is merely respecting the form. Form was an important element in western art dating back to the middle ages as well as classical times. I don't think many people realize how much formal content there was even in something as deceptively "simple" as a Christian icon. For Bach, to be an artist meant to understand form, grasp its true essence and employ it in its proper context. In a way, there's a Platonic undertone to all this.

This is an entirely different vision of art than what we are accustomed to nowadays. To be frank though, i don't think "liberating" art from form led to better music, or better art for that matter. What makes the difference to me is the creativity of the artist, not his style.

I strongly agree with your explanation. I'd like to add just one thing: Baroque is, among all artistic styles, the one which has more faith in the formal aspects of language, in the symbol itself. For people thinking in Baroque terms, symbols have their own almost universal power, and the "doctrine of the affections" is a clear demonstration about it. Besides, that's the reason why Rhetoric is so important: you must know how the symbols need to be used to press the correct key in listener or reader.

Sorry if all of this sounds a bit confuse...  :-[

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on December 13, 2014, 01:59:14 PM
Quote from: edward on December 13, 2014, 01:31:20 PM
A couple of provocative ones:

Shostakovich is most consistently successful not in symphonies or string quartets, but in his vocal works.
Beethoven's only worthwhile music for violin and orchestra is the Benedictus from the Missa solemnis.

DSCH .....I would rate the SQs as being consistently excellent,  as well as the vocal works.  Symphonies are definitely a mixed bag.
LvB...no, the VC still rules, and the romances are often underrated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2014, 02:15:24 PM
I am probably not harmonically literate enough, but is Bach in those Suites fundamentally different from, say Handel, Couperin, Rameau with respect to some "standardized" harmonic progressions?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 13, 2014, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 13, 2014, 01:59:14 PM
LvB...no, the VC still rules, and the romances are often underrated.

Yes, Beethoven's VC = greatness.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2014, 08:21:33 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 13, 2014, 01:59:14 PM
DSCH .....I would rate the SQs as being consistently excellent,  as well as the vocal works.  Symphonies are definitely a mixed bag.
LvB...no, the VC still rules, and the romances are often underrated.

Hmmm. These opinions are all right, but more to the point, all popular. Can you post them here?  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 14, 2014, 04:37:51 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 13, 2014, 01:29:18 PM
I think Brahms is extremely consistent, at least after a bunch of early works where one could him imagine going in a different, maybe more Lisztian direction. I am not equally fond of everything either, but the "principles" seem very consistent. And of course almost half of his oeuvre is Lieder and choral music and not very widely known (I have not heard all of it either).

Brahms was immensely self-critical, and supposedly destroyed numerous string quartets, as well as having waited many years before producing his first symphony. But by his era the climate for composers had substantially changed: they were no longer writing on order as Bach had to do each week when producing cantatas, and the sheer quantity of work from composers after Beethoven's time had significantly diminished.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 14, 2014, 04:51:44 AM
Quote from: edward on December 13, 2014, 01:31:20 PM
Beethoven's only worthwhile music for violin and orchestra is the Benedictus from the Missa solemnis.

I have long held that the Violin Concerto is one of Beethoven's few relative failures in orchestral music. In the first movement in particular, he seemed to be trying for a vein of pure lyricism that is contrary to his normal style from the middle period, and which he achieved much more successfully in the fourth piano concerto, the third cello sonata, and similar works. All too often in the opening movement of the fiddle concerto, there are phrases where the antecedent and consequent just echo each other symmetrically and trail off weakly; if I wanted to attach some musical examples this could be easily demonstrated. I don't find the slow movement or rondo much stronger either.

And this is coming from someone who reveres Beethoven as one of the very greatest of composers. Oh wait, that's a popular opinion.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 05:59:43 AM
I am not a great fan of the violin concerto either. But the first movement with the uncertainty of 9-bar-phrases and the obnoxious d sharp (or whatever it is) coming in is not at all blandly symmetrical, but quite sophisticated and not just a lyrical outpouring. The very sound of the beginning with timpani and woodwinds must have been strange and provocative for its contemporaries although it is probably impossible for us to enter a state of mind where we find stuff like this (or the chords at the beginning of his 1st symphony) even mildly scandalous.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2014, 06:42:52 AM
Quote from: James on December 14, 2014, 06:27:38 AM
Agree about LvB's VC .. and in surveying his work myself, the first 3 piano concertos (especially the 2nd) and the triple concerto also strike me as being weaker too.

Said the man who worships Stockhausen whose music, in turn, sounds like electronic farts. You're in no place to judge LvB.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 14, 2014, 06:52:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 14, 2014, 06:42:52 AM
Said the man who worships Stockhausen whose music, in turn, sounds like electronic farts. You're in no place to judge LvB.

This commented has been filed under "Link when Stockhausen is John's avatar."
:laugh: >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2014, 07:27:02 AM
Quote from: James on December 14, 2014, 07:04:10 AM
I could go on .. but I already have enough enemies on this forum, some just for the fact that I like Stockhausen.  >:D

I'm just giving you a hard time about Stockhausen. But the reason you have enemies on this forum has less to do with your liking of Stockhausen and more to do with the way you treat others.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 09:02:55 AM
I personally prefer at least Beethoven's 1st and 3rd piano concerto to the violin, probably the 2nd as well. But I think the violin concerto is a considerable "advancement" in the subtleties of the concerto form. And the ambiguous phrase lengths and stress shifts of the 5 "beats" in the violin concerto actually show that it is much less four-square than e.g. the 3rd piano concerto (always talking about the 1st movements). The importance of such a rhythmic element also balances the generally lyrical tone. It's not completely Beethoven's fault that the piece is often played too slowly, even syrupy (although the humongous cadenza often adapted from the piano version is his fault...).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 14, 2014, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 05:59:43 AM
I am not a great fan of the violin concerto either. But the first movement with the uncertainty of 9-bar-phrases and the obnoxious d sharp (or whatever it is) coming in is not at all blandly symmetrical, but quite sophisticated and not just a lyrical outpouring. The very sound of the beginning with timpani and woodwinds must have been strange and provocative for its contemporaries although it is probably impossible for us to enter a state of mind where we find stuff like this (or the chords at the beginning of his 1st symphony) even mildly scandalous.

That's a valid point, but once that introductory phrase is over, there's little else in the movement that shows the same degree of metric irregularity.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 14, 2014, 12:03:12 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 09:02:55 AM
I personally prefer at least Beethoven's 1st and 3rd piano concerto to the violin, probably the 2nd as well.
I agree with you there. The first piano concerto is my favorite of the early three, especially with the gigantic final cadenza LvB wrote for it.

My dislike of the violin concerto is well-documented here, and it does stem in part from the unbearably slow performances that many violinists now favor. There's also a general trend toward as-slow-as-possible readings for the first movements of the Brahms and Sibelius concertos, from that contingent which believes "slowness = profundity" and "profundity > liveliness". But even in an acceptable performance (Zehetmair/Bruggen or Faust/Abbado), the "voice" of the first movement still bothers me. There's always been something a little stale about its lyricism. It glares, like looking into the sun. Is the violin part too incessantly high-pitched for my taste? Probably. Contrast is lacking, both emotionally and (after the first minute) in the juxtaposition of instruments.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 14, 2014, 12:14:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 14, 2014, 12:03:12 PM
My dislike of the violin concerto is well-documented here, and it does stem in part from the unbearably slow performances that many violinists now favor.

Yes, but Beethoven can't be blamed for that. I agree with you about performances, however. (And the same is true, for instance, of the Schubert B-flat sonata, whose first movement - Molto moderato - is now usually taken as a Molto adagio, which both stretches out the movement interminably and provides insufficient contrast with the following slow movement.) I remember a live performance of the Beethoven at the NY Phil with A-S Mutter and Kurt Masur, where the first movement - Allegro ma non troppo as marked - was dragged throughout, especially during the development section. By the end of the development, the tempo had slowed so precipitously that Masur had to jerk the orchestra into an extraordinary accelerando to get the unison fortissimo D's back to speed at the start of the recap. "Wake up, everyone!"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 14, 2014, 12:29:08 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 14, 2014, 12:14:42 PM
Yes, but Beethoven can't be blamed for that.
Yes - I agree with you and Jo498 about that.

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 14, 2014, 12:14:42 PM
(And the same is true, for instance, of the Schubert B-flat sonata, whose first movement - Molto moderato - is now usually taken as a Molto adagio, which both stretches out the movement interminably and provides insufficient contrast with the following slow movement.)
Speaking of Schubert, his Unfinished Symphony is yet another victim of this trend. Between Beethoven, Brahms, and Schubert, it seems like "Allegro ma non troppo" is being read as "Allegro ma non allegro".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 01:14:04 PM
A problem with Schubert's b minor symphony is that the first movement is a slowish allegro in 3/4 and the 2nd a flowing andante in 3/8. Even if as customary both are played too slow they do not sound all that different. And some HIPster play the andante so fast that the contrast is not strong either. It's partly Schubert's fault although I think they both should be moving in whole bars (more or less). Schubert wrote a lot of music in 4/4 or 3/4 that becomes too slow if one thinks and counts in quarter notes. It' whole bars or half bars one should count.

With the piano sonatas, especially D 960 and D 894 I am not sure, but I think that "Molto moderato" should be read with an implicit reference to a "standard" allegro first movement. It's not very clear but it is a modifier so it has to imply a main indication. So Richter & Co are probably way too slow, though the results might be impressive. There is at least one Richter recording, probably a live D 894 where the 2nd movement, an andante, feels faster than the first. I cannot believe that Schubert intended this. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 14, 2014, 06:45:30 PM
So it's a bonafide unpopular opinion to actually like Beethoven's VC?? Who'd a thunk! :laugh:

For my money the VC is a wonderful example of Beethoven fearlessly spreading his classicist wings. No need for fire and brimstone when proportion, restraint, vigor, and poetry are in abundance. 

Perhaps my totally sympathetic Mullova/Gardiner recording makes all the difference. Suk/Boult and Chung/Tennstedt are good, too.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 11:32:03 PM
Yeah, the (un)popularity of opinions can differ depending on where they are expressed. I do not think I really *dislike* anything by Beethoven. But it's far from my favorite Beethoven concerto and not my favorite violin concerto either. Restrained and classicist might fit the emotional content, but the first movement is about as long as some Mozart concerti. It's a lyrical smiling behemoth!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on December 15, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
Well, here is an opinion which may prove unpopular: Most recordings of Romantic music from about 1960 to 1980 were taken too slowly, especially those of Beethoven and Brahms.  Corollary: That's why some folks don't like the Beethoven Violin Concerto, or the Brahms concertos: they haven't heard them played at the right tempo.

Example: My favorite recording of the Brahms Double is the one made in 1951 by Nathan Milstein, Gregor Piatigorsky and Fritz Reiner leading the Robin Hood Dell Orchestra of Philadelphia--but it's considerably faster than most modern recordings.  Their last movement rocks out!  Especially the first orchestral tutti; the kinetic energy there is awesome, far greater than in most recent recordings I've heard. -- Can anyone name a recent performance that has that kind of drive?

But to this day I've never heard a recording of the Beethoven violin concerto that had what I consider enough fire in the finale.  Most of them seem to treat it with too much reverence and not enough (to be blunt) virtuosity.

And once in the 1970s I caught a broadcast of Beethoven's Emperor piano concerto in which the pianist played the opening runs one note at a time, almost adagio--far different from the classic Rudolf Serkin/Bruno Walter one where Mr. Serkin simply roars into the opening cadenza.  How are you supposed to catch and hold the audience's attention without that kind of drive and flash?

That may be why some folks have a hard time appreciating the Three B's (and Mozart's dance movements, BTW); they've only heard reverent performances, not ones with fire and sparkle.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 15, 2014, 12:21:21 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 15, 2014, 12:10:46 PM

That may be why some folks have a hard time appreciating the Three B's (and Mozart's dance movements, BTW); they've only heard reverent performances, not ones with fire and sparkle.
Really well put, and a large part of why Original Instruments, as we called HIP in the old days, was so exciting. It wasn't just the instruments, or the vibrato. It was the lively engagement with the music. OK Mr Bach, let's see what you've got for me today.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Chaszz on December 15, 2014, 01:19:47 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 15, 2014, 12:21:21 PM
Really well put, and a large part of why Original Instruments, as we called HIP in the old days, was so exciting. It wasn't just the instruments, or the vibrato. It was the lively engagement with the music. OK Mr Bach, let's see what you've got for me today.

Fine, but it seems to me with HIP, especially Baroque, the pendulum these days often swings too far in the other direction. With Bach especially, I hear allegros that are so fast that the separation of notes is lost. My favorite example of this is the B Minor Mass chorus Cum Sancto Spiritu, one of Bach's greatest and most rhythmically intense movements. As the movement reaches its ultimate climax, a couple of bars or so from the end, the trumpet plays a little figure containing a pair of triplets and these triplets are integral to the melodic structure of the climax. In most HIP performances, you cannot distinguish these as triplets, merely a blur of sound if you can distinguish the trumpet at all in the mad rush to be out of there and go home on the subway. Why would Bach have written triplets if he merely wanted a blur? On this piece of important evidence alone, I condemn a plethora of mad rushing HIP Bach allegros.     
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on December 15, 2014, 02:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 15, 2014, 01:19:47 PM
Fine, but it seems to me with HIP, especially Baroque, the pendulum these days often swings too far in the other direction. With Bach especially, I hear allegros that are so fast that the separation of notes is lost. My favorite example of this is the B Minor Mass chorus Cum Sancto Spiritu, one of Bach's greatest and most rhythmically intense movements. As the movement reaches its ultimate climax, a couple of bars or so from the end, the trumpet plays a little figure containing a pair of triplets and these triplets are integral to the melodic structure of the climax. In most HIP performances, you cannot distinguish these as triplets, merely a blur of sound if you can distinguish the trumpet at all in the mad rush to be out of there and go home on the subway. Why would Bach have written triplets if he merely wanted a blur? On this piece of important evidence alone, I condemn a plethora of mad rushing HIP Bach allegros.   
Well I agree with you, and in fact think Mozart is often better slower than old style. But my comment was about the reverence vs engagement aspect.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2014, 06:02:50 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 15, 2014, 01:19:47 PM
In most HIP performances, you cannot distinguish these as triplets, merely a blur of sound if you can distinguish the trumpet at all in the mad rush to be out of there and go home on the subway. Why would Bach have written triplets if he merely wanted a blur? On this piece of important evidence alone, I condemn a plethora of mad rushing HIP Bach allegros.   

I hope they don't go home without finishing the Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. But I take your point: no tempo should ever be so fast as to make it impossible to articulate the smallest note values (and there are 32nds for the first trumpet in the measure before that are even faster than your triplets).

The little contemporary documentation on the matter says that Bach generally took lively and brisk tempos. But this does not mean every allegro has to be taken at breakneck speed, as some of our HIPsters are wont to do.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 18, 2014, 12:39:07 AM
Quote from: Chaszz on December 15, 2014, 01:19:47 PM
Why would Bach have written triplets if he merely wanted a blur?   

This argument would make sense if there was a specific notation for indicating that a composer wanted a blur.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on December 18, 2014, 04:36:14 PM
Quote from: orfeo on December 18, 2014, 12:39:07 AM
This argument would make sense if there was a specific notation for indicating that a composer wanted a blur.
It's called a glissando. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2014, 05:19:33 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 18, 2014, 04:36:14 PM
It's called a glissando. :)

That however does not apply to the trumpet passage in question, which is more like a brief group of mordents. Very rapid scale passages on the white keys in keyboard music (as in the first movement of the C major concerto for two harpsichords) may have been executed as a glissando using the thumb, but that would not come out like a blur.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Purusha on December 21, 2014, 08:30:52 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 14, 2014, 12:03:12 PM
My dislike of the violin concerto is well-documented here, and it does stem in part from the unbearably slow performances that many violinists now favor.

Have you ever tried the one by Nathan Milstein? I think he recorded two of them, but i'm only familiar with the one he made in the 50s with Steinberg. Its a great performance, to the point with no saccharine embellishments.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on December 21, 2014, 08:30:35 PM
Quote from: Purusha on December 21, 2014, 08:30:52 AM
Have you ever tried the one by Nathan Milstein? I think he recorded two of them, but i'm only familiar with the one he made in the 50s with Steinberg. Its a great performance, to the point with no saccharine embellishments.
If that one's as good as the one Milstein, Piatigorsky, and Reiner did of the Brahms Double, it must be a very fine recording! ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: RJR on December 23, 2014, 06:10:54 AM
Quote from: amw on December 12, 2014, 01:48:49 PM


Also while I'm here: Mahler's tunes are often the only redeeming parts of his symphonies. He should have given up on the orchestra and written operettas instead. Or Broadway musicals.

Circus music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 08, 2015, 03:43:26 PM
BUMP!

James is right about a lot of things.

>:D
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 09, 2015, 03:15:39 AM
Some of what a parrot repeats is apt, too  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on June 09, 2015, 03:20:40 AM
Even a stopped clock...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 09, 2015, 04:30:50 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 08, 2015, 03:43:26 PM
BUMP!

James is right about a lot of things.

>:D

That's certainly an unpopular opinion! (FWIW, I often agree.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 09, 2015, 04:33:15 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 08, 2015, 03:43:26 PM
James is right about a lot of things.

>:D
Only the Stockhausen parts ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 09, 2015, 05:24:31 AM
Now that James actually writes his own material... Look, it's difficult to say. Because there's an argument that his posts are right less often than they used to be, but now they're HIS posts so that when the post is right HE is right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 09, 2015, 09:26:03 AM
Can we be sure?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 09, 2015, 12:57:30 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 09, 2015, 04:30:50 AM
That's certainly an unpopular opinion! (FWIW, I often agree.)

+ 1
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2015, 08:20:25 AM
"There is no hope for the future of music."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on July 08, 2015, 08:45:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 08, 2015, 08:20:25 AM
"There is no hope for the future of music."
Ooooh, unpopular! ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on July 08, 2015, 10:32:29 AM
Fauré's nocturnes are greater than Chopin's.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 08, 2015, 03:36:25 PM
Quote from: The Six on July 08, 2015, 10:32:29 AM
Fauré's nocturnes are greater than Chopin's.

Ooh. That's a tricky one. I don't know whether to pick the best, the worst, the mean or the median.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2015, 04:57:35 PM
I was going to say, we should draw a distinction between unpopular and daft 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 08, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
Most CD reviews, especially those written by professional critics, are just bombastic and meaningless verbiage.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on July 10, 2015, 07:00:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 08, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
Most CD reviews, especially those written by professional critics, are just bombastic and meaningless verbiage.
Revealing of character though.

*evil chartle*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on July 10, 2015, 12:01:49 PM
Quote from: Ken B on July 10, 2015, 07:00:47 AM
Revealing of character though.

*evil chartle*
Chartle? Is that where you chortle and fart at the same time?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Wakefield on July 10, 2015, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Florestan on July 08, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
Most CD reviews, especially those written by professional critics, are just bombastic and meaningless verbiage.

Perhaps it's merely a thing of degree.  :)

Since I'm in a dark mood today, I tend to think like the Bard:

QuoteLife's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 11:36:02 PM
Quote from: Florestan on July 08, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
Most CD reviews, especially those written by professional critics, are just bombastic and meaningless verbiage.

I  wish it were close to the truth, because this sort of vacuity seems to me more typical of a professional review.

QuoteVirgin Veritas has added to its attractive series of artists' 'portraits' this fine recital of music by Frescobaldi. The recorded sound of an instrument by Jean-Louis Val is superb, and the versatile Ross seldom puts a finger wrong in his assured stylistic grasp of this virtuoso repertoire by Italy's greatest keyboard composer in the first half of the 17th century. Frescobaldi excelled in composing toccatas, correntes and variation sets, each of which is represented. Nicholas Anderson

In my experience many of the people in London at least who write professional reviews aren't really interested in music any more and are paid peanuts. BBC Music Magazine didn't help.

I love "seldom puts a finger wrong" and "assured stylistic grasp "
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 11, 2015, 02:27:35 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 10, 2015, 12:01:49 PM
Chartle? Is that where you chortle and fart at the same time?

Ken charted.  :-[
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2015, 02:55:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 11:36:02 PM
I love "seldom puts a finger wrong" and "assured stylistic grasp "

"Lets the music speak for itself" ...if that were true, we wouldn't need the conductor or the players  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2015, 02:56:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 10, 2015, 12:01:49 PM
Chartle? Is that where you chortle and fart at the same time?

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 11, 2015, 02:27:35 AM
Ken charted.  :-[

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on July 11, 2015, 04:19:08 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2015, 02:56:09 AM
;D :D ;D

Sarge
Sort of a cross between a raspberry and a wet one.  :o ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on July 11, 2015, 11:16:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 08, 2015, 08:20:25 AM
"There is no hope for the future of music."
I would have thought that this was an extremely popular opinion.

It is certainly ubiquitous. Plus, you see it everywhere.

Anyway, there do seem to be a lot of words that while requiring a context to mean anything, are most often used without any reference to that context at all.

So, popular with some people and unpopular with some other people.

Anyanyway, I loved your addendum, Karl, distinguishing between unpopular and daft. My first grin of the morning. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2015, 04:19:53 AM
Cheers, Michael!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on July 13, 2015, 08:13:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2015, 02:55:35 AM
"Lets the music speak for itself" ...if that were true, we wouldn't need the conductor or the players  ;D

Sarge
+1
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Beetzart on August 06, 2015, 12:32:28 PM
Mahler is the most overrated human being ever lived.  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 06, 2015, 04:48:53 PM
Quote from: Beetzart on August 06, 2015, 12:32:28 PM
Mahler is the most overrated human being ever lived.  :P

You've been listening to the 8th haven't you?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on August 07, 2015, 06:18:45 AM
Mahler's Eighth is his greatest symphony and one of the greatest symphonies in the canon. -- There!  That's an unpopular opinion, at least on GMG! ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 07, 2015, 09:42:54 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 07, 2015, 06:18:45 AM
Mahler's Eighth is his greatest symphony and one of the greatest symphonies in the canon. -- There!  That's an unpopular opinion, at least on GMG! ;D
No unpopular enough!  >:D :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 07, 2015, 06:18:56 PM
Quote from: Beetzart on August 06, 2015, 12:32:28 PM
Mahler is the most overrated human being ever lived.  :P

Have you not heard of the Kardashians?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on August 20, 2015, 12:50:29 PM
Donald Trump. Something with balls and brains.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on November 16, 2015, 09:17:15 PM
Brahms is the ultimate example of the individual shaped by the signifier. He is a man seen only in mirror images; lost in a hall of mirrors, Brahms is a reflection of a reflection of a reflection. You start with Beethoven – the purest representation of humanity itself, and reflect him to create Schubert – the same thing, but slightly less. You invert Beethoven to create Wagner – Beethoven turned septic and libertarian – then you reflect the inversion in the reflection: you create a being who can only exist in reference to others. Brahms is the true nowhere man; without the others he reflects, inverts and parodies he has no reason to exist. Brahms's identity only comes from what and who he isn't – without a wider frame of reference he is nothing. He is not his own man. The saddest thing? In a world where our identities and beings are shaped by our warped relationships to brands and commerce we are all Brahms.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 16, 2015, 11:14:04 PM
This sound like a post-modernist slant on the Wagnerian rant that there was a certain composer without any ideas or personality, so that he had to present wearing in turn the mask of the gypsy fiddler, the ballad monger, the Handelian wig and therefore could not be taken seriously when he took on the persona of a serious symphonist...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 12:28:40 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 16, 2015, 09:17:15 PM
Brahms is the ultimate example of the individual shaped by the signifier. He is a man seen only in mirror images; lost in a hall of mirrors, Brahms is a reflection of a reflection of a reflection. You start with Beethoven – the purest representation of humanity itself, and reflect him to create Schubert – the same thing, but slightly less. You invert Beethoven to create Wagner – Beethoven turned septic and libertarian – then you reflect the inversion in the reflection: you create a being who can only exist in reference to others. Brahms is the true nowhere man; without the others he reflects, inverts and parodies he has no reason to exist. Brahms's identity only comes from what and who he isn't – without a wider frame of reference he is nothing. He is not his own man. The saddest thing? In a world where our identities and beings are shaped by our warped relationships to brands and commerce we are all Brahms.

I don´t know what you drank or smoke, but it must have been really strong.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2015, 06:03:57 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 12:28:40 AM
I don´t know what you drank or smoke, but it must have been really strong.

+1

Brahms is his own man. Always was, always will be.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on November 17, 2015, 06:07:00 AM
Quote from: The Six on November 16, 2015, 09:17:15 PM
Brahms is the ultimate example of the individual shaped by the signifier. He is a man seen only in mirror images; lost in a hall of mirrors, Brahms is a reflection of a reflection of a reflection. You start with Beethoven – the purest representation of humanity itself, and reflect him to create Schubert – the same thing, but slightly less. You invert Beethoven to create Wagner – Beethoven turned septic and libertarian – then you reflect the inversion in the reflection: you create a being who can only exist in reference to others. Brahms is the true nowhere man; without the others he reflects, inverts and parodies he has no reason to exist. Brahms's identity only comes from what and who he isn't – without a wider frame of reference he is nothing. He is not his own man. The saddest thing? In a world where our identities and beings are shaped by our warped relationships to brands and commerce we are all Brahms.
I like this post a lot!

Unpopular Opinions is for people to say their unpopular opinions, and this is a huge success.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2015, 06:14:26 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 17, 2015, 06:07:00 AM
I like this post a lot!

Unpopular Opinions is for people to say their unpopular opinions, and this is a huge success.  :)

Hah!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 06:17:38 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 17, 2015, 06:07:00 AM
I like this post a lot!

Unpopular Opinions is for people to say their unpopular opinions, and this is a huge success.  :)

Yeah, but unpopular does not necessarily mean weird, and I mean weirdo weird.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on November 17, 2015, 01:31:45 PM
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 06:17:38 AM
Yeah, but unpopular does not necessarily mean weird, and I mean weirdo weird.  ;D

Weird and weirdo weird opinions each have their own thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 17, 2015, 01:52:31 PM
I am Johannes Brahms.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on November 17, 2015, 03:59:14 PM
At this point, Brahms himself might say something like, "At least I have a reflection." :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 19, 2015, 03:46:06 AM
Brahms: such a great all-rounder, he's suitable for comparison to all comers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2015, 04:23:10 AM
I don't care for The Simpsons at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 22, 2015, 08:11:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2015, 04:23:10 AM
I don't care for The Simpsons at all.
That makes two of us!

Although I do like some of the quotes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2015, 08:37:07 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 22, 2015, 08:11:13 AM
That makes two of us!

Although I do like some of the quotes.

Oh, those, no one could take away from Groening & al.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2015, 08:38:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2015, 04:23:10 AM
I don't care for The Simpsons at all.

+1 Really dislike that show along with all of those others like Family Guy, American Dad, South Park, etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2015, 08:43:18 AM
I dislike Verdi, Puccini, or their ilk. Whether this is an 'unpopular' opinion, I'm not sure, but there you have it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 10:45:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2015, 08:43:18 AM
I dislike Verdi, Puccini, or their ilk.

This is not an opinion, it´s a statement.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on December 22, 2015, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 10:45:44 AM
This is not an opinion, it´s a statement.  :)

So we should have a thread : Unpopular statements?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on December 22, 2015, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 10:45:44 AM
This is not an opinion, it´s a statement.  :)

Isn't it a statement of an opinion?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on December 22, 2015, 10:56:42 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 10:45:44 AM
This is not an opinion, it´s a statement.  :)

Whether it is an opinion or a statement, I share this with John.  I think Ilaria would too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on December 22, 2015, 10:59:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2015, 08:43:18 AM
I dislike Verdi, Puccini, or their ilk. Whether this is an 'unpopular' opinion, I'm not sure, but there you have it.

I'm with you, John.  I realize these two are sacred cows, probably for a reason, but Italian opera is just not my cup of tea, or cappuccino.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on December 22, 2015, 10:59:50 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 22, 2015, 10:56:42 AM
Whether it is an opinion or a statement, I share this with John.  I think Ilaria would too.

So do I, statement or not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on December 22, 2015, 11:00:51 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 22, 2015, 10:59:50 AM
So do I, statement or not.

Well, perhaps it isn't as unpopular as we thought?  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 22, 2015, 11:02:05 AM
Who is "their ilk"...?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 11:15:11 AM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on December 22, 2015, 10:53:21 AM
Isn't it a statement of an opinion?

Statement: I dislike Verdi.

Opinion: Verdi sucks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2015, 11:17:59 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 11:15:11 AM
Statement: I dislike Verdi.

Opinion: Verdi sucks.
So maybe you can help me. If I said Sibelius stinks. or Nielsen wears army boots. or Delius wipes Verdi's you know what. Are these opinions or statements? :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2015, 11:17:59 AM
So maybe you can help me. If I said Sibelius stinks. or Nielsen wears army boots. or Delius wipes Verdi's you know what. Are these opinions or statements? :)

The first is an opinion, the second a statement, the third a scatological fantasy.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 22, 2015, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 11:44:11 AMthe third a scatological fantasy.  ;D

;D :D ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2015, 11:55:01 AM
Florestan: 1. Ukrneal:0
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on December 22, 2015, 01:23:08 PM
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2015, 11:44:11 AM
The first is an opinion, the second a statement, the third a scatological fantasy.  ;D

I think your analysis - serviceable on its surface -overlooks the subtlety of human speech.  John's orig. statement is indeed reflective of an opinion - granted, we don't know why, really, he doesn't like Italian opera, but that's not critical to the simple expression of opinion - there can be no doubt from his statement that his opinion is negative.  So, it's implicit in his, yes, statement.  The point I'm making here is that, simply or not so, statements can be reflective of opinions.  As are mc ukrneal's statements, but he's taken these deliberately to extremes to prove the point (I think).

As for Nielsen "wearing army boots," this is an expression, meaning that Nielsen is a slut or whore (origin circa WWI for a 'camp follower').  The speaker might be relating a verifiable fact or one he believes to be true, but knowledge of the expression pretty much means to listeners accustomed to it that the speaker's opinion of this composer is not merely negative, but insultingly so.     

That negativity is further  increased in the last example where a statement is taken to even greater extremes to reflect the speaker's opinion.  In other words, literally, Sibelius and Delius are shitty = opinion.

And may the ghosts of all these composers, Puccini and Verdi as well, have mercy on my soul.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2015, 01:31:02 PM
Personal statements about one's own listening tastes are unlikely to be unpopular, unless other people feel a need to control your listening.

General statements about composers on the other hand...

Oh, and lumping together all animated TV shows? Puhleease.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 22, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Quote from: orfeo on December 22, 2015, 01:31:02 PM
Oh, and lumping together all animated TV shows? Puhleease.

Yeah, Futurama is AWESOME!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 22, 2015, 03:07:26 PM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on December 22, 2015, 01:23:08 PM
In other words, literally, Delius is shitty = opinion.

No, fact.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on December 22, 2015, 03:37:37 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 22, 2015, 03:07:26 PM
No, fact.
Only insofar as "Everybody shits." :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on December 22, 2015, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 22, 2015, 03:37:37 PM
Only insofar as "Everybody shits." :laugh:

Laughed so hard your statement (or opinion) was almost put to the test... :laugh: ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 22, 2015, 04:42:58 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 22, 2015, 03:37:37 PM
Only insofar as "Everybody shits." :laugh:

Finally a statement, comment, verbiage to save this thread... :D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on December 22, 2015, 05:00:16 PM
So true :
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 22, 2015, 05:13:16 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 22, 2015, 03:37:37 PM
Only insofar as "Everybody shits." :laugh:

Yes, but some are more constipated than others.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2015, 06:01:41 PM
Quote from: orfeo on December 22, 2015, 01:31:02 PM

Oh, and lumping together all animated TV shows? Puhleease.

I didn't lump all animated shows together, just the ones I disliked. :) Like Brian, I actually like Futurama and also Ren & Stimpy, Aeon Flux, Looney Tunes, and a plethora of Hanna-Barbera ones.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2015, 06:03:15 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 22, 2015, 10:59:31 AM
I'm with you, John.  I realize these two are sacred cows, probably for a reason, but Italian opera is just not my cup of tea, or cappuccino.

Right on. There's plenty of people that enjoy it, but I never could acquire the taste for it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on December 23, 2015, 05:15:41 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 22, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Yeah, Futurama is AWESOME!

As good as Futurama is, liking Futurama but not The Simpsons (seasons 2-8) is just wrong.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 08:44:15 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2015, 11:55:01 AM
Florestan: 1. Ukrneal:0

Hey, it´s not a competition, we´re just having fun (at least I do) --- but I like the way you put it.   :D

Thread duty: my opinion is that Schubert achieved efortlessly and naturally in a one-hour-long, piano-and-voice-only work what Wagner struggled hard to achieve in a whole four-night-long, overbloated-orchestra operatic tetralogy.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2015, 12:48:06 PM
Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 08:44:15 AM
Hey, it´s not a competition, we´re just having fun (at least I do) --- but I like the way you put it.   :D

It's just an unpopular opinion after all! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 12:49:43 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2015, 12:48:06 PM
It's just an unpopular opinion after all! :)

Florestan: 1. mc ukrneal: 1.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2015, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 12:49:43 PM
Florestan: 1. mc ukrneal: 1.
;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 24, 2015, 03:04:21 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 22, 2015, 03:37:37 PM
Only insofar as "Everybody shits." :laugh:

Except Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rinaldo on December 24, 2015, 11:21:50 AM
Quote from: Russell Hoban'What ever eats mus shit.'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on December 28, 2015, 02:22:38 AM
Here's a fact: it is unwise to hold your farts in. They travel up your spine and into your brain and that's where shitty ideas come from. I guess that all the worst composers held their farts in and all the best let it rip whenever they could. In my opinion, Boulez was a real stinker and therefore a great composer. 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: springrite on December 28, 2015, 02:35:21 AM
Let's change "Your Top Ten Greatest Composers" list to "Your Top Ten Most Flatulent Composers" list!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 01, 2016, 01:50:27 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 11, 2011, 11:44:51 AM
"Chamber music is more interesting than orchestral music."
I thought everybody knew that ; )

"Jazz and Chamber music are not for everybody."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 04, 2016, 05:20:30 PM
J. S. Bach's music is always perfectly crafted, and very near to always it is also perfectly boring.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2016, 07:13:54 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 04, 2016, 05:20:30 PM
J. S. Bach's music is always perfectly crafted, and very near to always it is also perfectly boring.

If so, why am I never bored?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 04, 2016, 07:24:29 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2016, 07:13:54 PM
If so, why am I never bored?

Ditto.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 04, 2016, 11:14:05 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2016, 07:13:54 PM
If so, why am I never bored?

Some people find crossword puzzles deeply entertaining and satisfying, and... uh, this thread IS about opinions,  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 05, 2016, 12:57:14 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 04, 2016, 05:20:30 PM
J. S. Bach's music is always perfectly crafted, and very near to always it is also perfectly boring.

In all honesty, I think it depends a hell of a lot on how it's played.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on January 05, 2016, 01:16:14 AM
Quote from: orfeo on January 05, 2016, 12:57:14 AM
In all honesty, I think it depends a hell of a lot on how it's played.
I think it mainly depends on how well it's sung.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 05, 2016, 05:00:47 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 05, 2016, 01:16:14 AM
I think it mainly depends on how well it's sung.

That depends on whether we're dealing with an unsung composer or not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on January 05, 2016, 05:01:48 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 04, 2016, 05:20:30 PM
J. S. Bach's music is always perfectly crafted, and very near to always it is also perfectly boring.

Posted in the right thread!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2016, 05:02:27 AM
Well, an opinion that Bach's music is boring is certainly true to the thread  ;)

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 05, 2016, 05:01:48 AM
Posted in the right thread!  ;D

Oh! And Ray got there first!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2016, 08:25:31 AM
Baroque and Classical Era music is for wimps! Is this unpopular enough? :laugh:

P.S. I really don't think this to be the case of course but I remember running across someone saying this on another forum years ago. This said, I love me some Haydn, Vivaldi, Corelli, Rebel, and Rameau.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 07, 2016, 04:52:40 PM
'J. S. Bach's music is always perfectly crafted, and very near to always it is also perfectly boring."

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 05, 2016, 05:01:48 AM
Posted in the right thread!  ;D

Best here, and always better than posting the above in Ukase - like tone, as if a universally true statement, as the heading of a new thread.

I must point out that many an unpopular opinion may not necessarily be untrue, anymore than popular opinion is what selects the greatest composers or their greatest works.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 07, 2016, 05:32:58 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 04, 2016, 05:20:30 PM
J. S. Bach's music is always perfectly crafted, and very near to always it is also perfectly boring.
Definitely a half-unpopular opinion! ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on January 08, 2016, 09:31:19 PM
The "durr that opinion sure is unpopular! hyuk hyuk"  line is unfunny and tired. Get it outta here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 08, 2016, 09:39:15 PM
Quote from: The Six on January 08, 2016, 09:31:19 PM
The "durr that opinion sure is unpopular! hyuk hyuk"  line is unfunny and tired. Get it outta here.

There's gotta be SOME substance in this thread! :D


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on January 08, 2016, 09:49:19 PM
You can start contributing anytime!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 09, 2016, 08:32:02 AM
Quote from: The Six on January 08, 2016, 09:49:19 PM
You can start contributing anytime!

There's more than one way to contribute to a non-thread! :laugh:


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2016, 08:34:53 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 09, 2016, 08:32:02 AM
There's more than one way to contribute to a non-thread! :laugh:

YES!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on January 09, 2016, 09:43:53 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 09, 2016, 08:32:02 AM
There's more than one way to contribute to a non-thread! :laugh:

And you can start anytime!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on January 09, 2016, 09:58:41 AM
Do you have to read through all sixty-one pages before you can play?

I hope not.

I'll post anyway, just in case the answer is "no."

Here's a genuinely unpopular opinion: music is sufficient, complete in itself, needing nothing else for it to be totally satisfying.

Truly. Try that out sometime in a roomful of music lovers. You'll get your ass handed to you. I hope on a platter, of course. Your antagonists have some class, I hope. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 09, 2016, 11:22:05 AM
Quote from: some guy on January 09, 2016, 09:58:41 AM
Here's a genuinely unpopular opinion: music is sufficient, complete in itself, needing nothing else for it to be totally satisfying.
I haven't a clue what that is even supposed to mean. Or is that too popular an opinion?!?!? :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 09, 2016, 01:11:12 PM
Quote from: some guy on January 09, 2016, 09:58:41 AM
Do you have to read through all sixty-one pages before you can play?

I hope not.

I'll post anyway, just in case the answer is "no."

Here's a genuinely unpopular opinion: music is sufficient, complete in itself, needing nothing else for it to be totally satisfying.

Truly. Try that out sometime in a roomful of music lovers. You'll get your ass handed to you. I hope on a platter, of course. Your antagonists have some class, I hope. :P

No, the unpopular opinion is: it is wrong to add anything to music, especially a sense of meaning.

At least, that is the opinion that is unpopular with me. Maybe others have argued that something must be added. I have been arguing against the proposition that nothing must be added.

Whereas the opinion you're expressing right now is one I would happily live with.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 09, 2016, 01:20:33 PM
Quote from: some guy on January 09, 2016, 09:58:41 AM
Do you have to read through all sixty-one pages before you can play?

I hope not.

I'll post anyway, just in case the answer is "no."

Here's a genuinely unpopular opinion: music is sufficient, complete in itself, needing nothing else for it to be totally satisfying.

Truly. Try that out sometime in a roomful of music lovers. You'll get your ass handed to you. I hope on a platter, of course. Your antagonists have some class, I hope. :P

That is a repoussé platter with some chased detail, if they have any 'class' at all, if you please.

How you dress that ass handed to you on that platter so the entire presentation has some class, I dunno. Ask a cosmetician, or chef [or both], I guess.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 09, 2016, 05:58:24 PM
Quote from: some guy on January 09, 2016, 09:58:41 AM
...Here's a genuinely unpopular opinion: music is sufficient, complete in itself, needing nothing else for it to be totally satisfying....
Oh, that's not an unpopular opinion, at least with me.  I would only add: "SOME music is..." 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 09, 2016, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2016, 08:34:53 AM
YES!

Things are looking up!


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 09, 2016, 06:09:38 PM
Quote from: The Six on January 09, 2016, 09:43:53 AM
And you can start anytime!

Percolating..................



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 09, 2016, 06:24:21 PM
Quote from: some guy on January 09, 2016, 09:58:41 AM
Do you have to read through all sixty-one pages before you can play?

It's a laugh a minute...don't miss out...


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on January 10, 2016, 12:26:00 AM
Well, if you put it that way....

Sounds very tempting!!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 10, 2016, 07:51:44 AM
Looks like the show's over, until the next run. :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 11, 2016, 09:31:30 AM
Melody: the least important and most grossly over-rated element of classical music. Many erroneously think that melody is the first criterion that qualifies a work as popular and / or great.

...or


~ "Catchytunes, Saskatchewan; where everything is hummable"©pb;2016 ~
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 11, 2016, 11:05:23 AM
That one is definately unpopular with me.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on January 11, 2016, 12:58:42 PM
Hey! I'm WAY more unpopular than M. Croche, Mike.

Sheesh!!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 11, 2016, 01:25:22 PM
Calm down - this isn't an unpopularity contest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 11, 2016, 09:01:38 PM
Quote from: some guy on January 11, 2016, 12:58:42 PM
Hey! I'm WAY more unpopular than M. Croche, Mike.

Sheesh!!

Oh, man, I abandon and "fire" another classical forum and then come here only to find more people concerned with contests and "winning?"

Sheesh, Louiiiise, already.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2016, 03:51:57 AM
It ain't a horse race!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: some guy on January 12, 2016, 10:48:29 AM
It's true. "Ass" is a separate creature from "horse."

(Hey, if I'm gonna win this unpopularity thing, I gotta be an ass not a horse.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2016, 10:58:38 AM
Any anise for an ass?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 12, 2016, 01:21:43 PM
Quote from: some guy on January 12, 2016, 10:48:29 AM
It's true. "Ass" is a separate creature from "horse."

(Hey, if I'm gonna win this unpopularity thing, I gotta be an ass not a horse.)

True. Shakespeare's Bottom was not translated into a horse.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 12, 2016, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: some guy on January 11, 2016, 12:58:42 PM
Hey! I'm WAY more unpopular than M. Croche, Mike.

Sheesh!!

I am tempted to say, why, what have you done? But I don't think I want you to tell me.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 12, 2016, 05:30:34 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2016, 03:51:57 AM
It ain't a horse race!


"Competitions are for horses, not Artists."
~ Béla Bartók.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2016, 05:40:36 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 12, 2016, 05:30:34 PM


"Competitions are for horses, not Artists."
~ Béla Bartók.
Precisamente.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 27, 2016, 09:44:51 PM
It seems the opinion [cough, cough ahem, fact] that film score music, OST or concert suite, is not actually classical music is pretty unpopular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 01:27:20 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 27, 2016, 09:44:51 PM
It seems the opinion [cough, cough ahem, fact] that film score music, OST or concert suite, is not actually classical music is pretty unpopular.
Really? I've only ever seen the UK's Classic FM file soundtracks to games and movies under 'Classical.' Everyone I know don't consider music written for films and games to be classical music.... And in CD shops, soundtracks get their own section separate from classical (usually a couple of aisles away)....are you sure about this M. Croche?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 28, 2016, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 27, 2016, 09:44:51 PM
It seems the opinion [cough, cough ahem, fact] that film score music, OST or concert suite, is not actually classical music is pretty unpopular.

Have you told Shostakovich this fact?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 03:42:31 AM
Quote from: orfeo on January 28, 2016, 03:33:18 AM
Have you told Shostakovich this fact?

I've made it my habit to only speak to the living.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 03:48:00 AM
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 01:27:20 AM
Really? I've only ever seen the UK's Classic FM file soundtracks to games and movies under 'Classical.' Everyone I know don't consider music written for films and games to be classical music.... And in CD shops, soundtracks get their own section separate from classical (usually a couple of aisles away)....are you sure about this M. Croche?
You should post this about this in the long (seemingly endless) discussion in the Star Wars thread about whether film music should be classified as classical music...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 06:25:45 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 03:48:00 AM
You should post this about this in the long (seemingly endless) discussion in the Star Wars thread about whether film music should be classified as classical music...
Wow okay I must have been living under a rock
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 07:20:45 AM
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 01:27:20 AM
Really? I've only ever seen the UK's Classic FM file soundtracks to games and movies under 'Classical.' Everyone I know don't consider music written for films and games to be classical music.... And in CD shops, soundtracks get their own section separate from classical (usually a couple of aisles away)....are you sure about this M. Croche?

First, if you can stomach it, do scan through the forty or more pages of heated discussion, opinions, and the butthurt and other sorts of offended and insulted responses to those who maintain and insist film music is not classical,' -- it is a mare's nest, to be sure.

BUT... [Slaps own forehead,] doh -- of course the Q is universally addressed in every online and bricks 'n' mortar CD store on the planet, and answered already by what bin do we put it in?

Lol and thank you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 08:39:04 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 07:20:45 AM
First, if you can stomach it, do scan through the forty or more pages of heated discussion, opinions, and the butthurt and other sorts of offended and insulted responses to those who maintain and insist film music is not classical,' -- it is a mare's nest, to be sure.

Ah, that's nothing. If you really want to torture yourself, go through the 345 pages and 6891 posts dedicated to that Ultimate Faker, Havergal Brian. Surprise, no activity since December 15. What's wrong with you guys?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 28, 2016, 09:09:00 AM
I cannot muster any enthusiasm for the film score pro/con discussion, maybe this is also an unpopular opinion considering the popularity of the discussion in the Star Wars music thread...

(My quick answer would be that it is a category mistake; "film music" and "classical music" are different types of classification. There are classical film scores and there are some that aren't. Star wars probably isn't but "Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene" and some Korngold and Shostakovitch probably are.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 28, 2016, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 28, 2016, 09:09:00 AM
(My quick answer would be that it is a category mistake; "film music" and "classical music" are different types of classification. There are classical film scores and there are some that aren't. Star wars probably isn't but "Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene" and some Korngold and Shostakovitch probably are.)

Exactly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2016, 02:34:17 PM
Gents,

While it is the point of this thread to point out unpopular opinions which you may hold, I must request that you refrain from characterizing others' likes or dislikes (and by inference, them) as, boring, innocuous, insipid, stale, tedious, uninspiring, banal, bland, colorless, dead, driveling, flavorless, inane, jejune, least, lifeless, limp, milk-and-water, Milquetoast, nothing, nowhere, tame, tasteless, tiresome, unimaginative, uninteresting, unpalatable, vacant, vacuous, vapid, watery, weak or wishy-washy.

If you please.
Thank you.
Gurn  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2016, 02:34:17 PM
Gents,

While it is the point of this thread to point out unpopular opinions which you may hold, I must request that you refrain from characterizing others' likes or dislikes (and by inference, them) as, boring, innocuous, insipid, stale, tedious, uninspiring, banal, bland, colorless, dead, driveling, flavorless, inane, jejune, least, lifeless, limp, milk-and-water, Milquetoast, nothing, nowhere, tame, tasteless, tiresome, unimaginative, uninteresting, unpalatable, vacant, vacuous, vapid, watery, weak or wishy-washy.

If you please.
Thank you.
Gurn  8)

But what does that leave us?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2016, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 02:45:23 PM
But what does that leave us?

Oh, I know you will come up with something, you are a man of multiple resource, Poco!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Que on January 29, 2016, 02:13:31 AM
Perhaps less acting as premium ass holes towards each other would help?  >:D


But please don't take any personal offence, this is just another unpopular opinion!! :D

Q
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 29, 2016, 03:38:57 AM
Quote from: Que on January 29, 2016, 02:13:31 AM
Perhaps less acting as premium ass holes towards each other would help?  >:D


But please don't take any personal offense, this is just another unpopular opinion!! :D

Q

On the other hand, whatever the goal, don't you think that striving to be the best [premium] is the best approach?  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on January 29, 2016, 03:55:14 AM
We need a thread for popular unpopular opinions !! :P $:) >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 29, 2016, 03:57:50 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2016, 02:34:17 PM
boring, innocuous, insipid, stale, tedious, uninspiring, banal, bland, colorless, dead, driveling, flavorless, inane, jejune, least, lifeless, limp, milk-and-water, Milquetoast, nothing, nowhere, tame, tasteless, tiresome, unimaginative, uninteresting, unpalatable, vacant, vacuous, vapid, watery, weak or wishy-washy.

In a single word, popular. Look at popular politicians, for instance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2016, 04:06:44 AM
I don't like this thread. (← unpopular opinion?)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 29, 2016, 04:10:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2016, 04:06:44 AM
I don't like this thread. (← unpopular opinion?)
Certainly not around here, anyway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 29, 2016, 12:55:19 PM
''It's taste in the mouth, both strange and delightful, is of a pink bonbon filled with snow.''
-- Claude Debussy, on the music of Edvard Grieg.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 29, 2016, 07:46:49 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 09, 2016, 06:09:38 PM
Percolating..................

Got it!!

Mr. Snuffleupagus missed his calling by slumming on Sesame Street. He should've busted a move on Chewbacca and taken his rightful place as Han Solo's sidekick.



(http://documentlibrary.demos.concrete5.org/files/5212/9115/6069/Snuffleupagus_Sesame_Street.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 29, 2016, 11:50:18 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 29, 2016, 12:55:19 PM
''It's taste in the mouth, both strange and delightful, is of a pink bonbon filled with snow.''
-- Claude Debussy, on the music of Edvard Grieg.

I have seen this quote mentioned or referred to before. I am not familiar enough with Debussy's kind of irony to tell if this is really meant as negative as it apparently has been understood sometimes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 30, 2016, 03:39:16 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 29, 2016, 07:46:49 PM
Got it!!
Mr. Snuffleupagus missed his calling by slumming on Sesame Street. He should've busted a move on Chewbacca and taken his rightful place as Han Solo's sidekick.
(http://documentlibrary.demos.concrete5.org/files/5212/9115/6069/Snuffleupagus_Sesame_Street.jpg)

MASTODON WASTEDON SESAME STREET, film at eleven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 05:51:56 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 08:39:04 AM
Ah, that's nothing. If you really want to torture yourself, go through the 345 pages and 6891 posts dedicated to that Ultimate Faker, Havergal Brian. Surprise, no activity since December 15. What's wrong with you guys?

And my prayers have been answered! Post 6892 has just arrived. Keep those cards and letters coming, folks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on January 30, 2016, 06:29:02 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 05:51:56 AM
And my prayers have been answered! Post 6892 has just arrived. Keep those cards and letters coming, folks.
They're back!!!!  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2016, 06:38:00 AM
Quote from: ritter on January 30, 2016, 06:29:02 AM
They're back!!!!  :D

We've never been away...just hibernating, waiting for the promised 2 and 14 to appear  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on January 30, 2016, 06:53:14 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2016, 02:34:17 PM
Gents,

While it is the point of this thread to point out unpopular opinions which you may hold, I must request that you refrain from characterizing others' likes or dislikes (and by inference, them) as, boring, innocuous, insipid, stale, tedious, uninspiring, banal, bland, colorless, dead, driveling, flavorless, inane, jejune, least, lifeless, limp, milk-and-water, Milquetoast, nothing, nowhere, tame, tasteless, tiresome, unimaginative, uninteresting, unpalatable, vacant, vacuous, vapid, watery, weak or wishy-washy.

If you please.
Thank you.
Gurn  8)



How are we to discuss Satie then?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 30, 2016, 07:03:52 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 30, 2016, 03:39:16 AM
MASTODON WASTEDON SESAME STREET, film at eleven.

:laugh:


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 07:16:26 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 30, 2016, 06:53:14 AM


How are we to discuss Satie then?

You could call him an Ultimate Faker, but that's been taken already.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2016, 07:27:04 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 07:16:26 AM
You could call him an Ultimate Faker, but that's been taken already.

Penultimate, perhaps?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2016, 07:40:30 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 07:16:26 AM
You could call him an Ultimate Faker, but that's been taken already.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2016, 07:27:04 AM
Penultimate, perhaps?  :)

8)


;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 30, 2016, 08:41:47 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 30, 2016, 06:53:14 AM


How are we to discuss Satie then?

Surely a good 'meh' would do....so far not on Gurn's list of proscribed words; I suspect he does not know it, yet.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2016, 08:56:12 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2016, 08:41:47 AMI suspect he does not know it, yet.

Probably not...he's stuck in the 18th century  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2016, 09:00:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2016, 08:56:12 AM
Probably not...he's stuck in the 18th century  8)

Sarge

Meh I? 

Although with antibiotics and CD's... :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 30, 2016, 09:01:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2016, 08:56:12 AM
Probably not...he's stuck in the 18th century  8)

Sarge

Yes, Gurn is likely to be discombobulated by the neology.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 30, 2016, 10:56:14 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2016, 09:01:49 AM
discombobulated

I will certainly keep this in mind for further use.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 30, 2016, 09:04:53 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2016, 07:27:04 AM
Penultimate, perhaps?  :)

8)

Ultimate Faker Ordinaire would make for a snappy acronym....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 30, 2016, 09:07:56 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 30, 2016, 06:53:14 AM
How are we to discuss Satie then?

In the usual and conventionally civil best Dadaist manner, naturellement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 31, 2016, 07:39:50 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 30, 2016, 09:07:56 PM
In the usual and conventionally civil best Dadaist manner, naturellement.
"O Dada, Where Are Thou?" :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2016, 08:02:46 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 30, 2016, 09:04:53 PM
Ultimate Faker Ordinaire would make for a snappy acronym....

:D  And somehow ideal at the same time. Thus, in answer to Todd's question, the thread should be titled "Erik Satie - UFO" 

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on January 31, 2016, 08:06:32 AM
Shall we listen to Michael Daugherty's UFO for solo percussion and orchestra?  Preferably with Evelyn Glennie on percussion? ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on February 02, 2016, 03:21:03 AM
Judging by a large sample of liner notes and books, it is apparently an unpopular opinion amongst French speakers that a quotation in French ought to be translated when presented within an English text.

It drives me mad. I've never seen this attitude for, say, German language composers, but read about Debussy, Ravel or Faure and you're virtually bound to get at least some phrases of French put in quotes and left hanging in the air, as if the French is inherently sophisticated and bothering to translate it would be demeaning.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on February 02, 2016, 03:44:59 AM
Quote from: orfeo on February 02, 2016, 03:21:03 AM
Judging by a large sample of liner notes and books, it is apparently an unpopular opinion amongst French speakers that a quotation in French ought to be translated when presented within an English text.

It drives me mad. I've never seen this attitude for, say, German language composers, but read about Debussy, Ravel or Faure and you're virtually bound to get at least some phrases of French put in quotes and left hanging in the air, as if the French is inherently sophisticated and bothering to translate it would be demeaning.
Mon cher ami, I do not see où est le problème... :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on February 02, 2016, 04:16:59 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2016, 08:02:46 AM
:D  And somehow ideal at the same time. Thus, in answer to Todd's question, the thread should be titled "Erik Satie - UFO"

Indeedy, it is a simpler explanation and easier to accept that is where Satie came from.

Playing and composing popular salon pieces of the day with his stepmother in his childhood and early teens is hardly an acceptable background and an even less satisfactory explanation of what came from him later.

I mean, composing and privately publishing the Gymnpedies at the height of the near universal hegemony of Germanic romanticism only five years after the death of Wagner [1888] does make one wonder what air other than ours Satie did breath....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on February 02, 2016, 04:28:44 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 31, 2016, 07:39:50 AM
"O Dada, Where Are Thou?" :laugh:

Isn't "O DaDa" the title of the Welsh translation of the children's book, "My Two Dads" ?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on February 02, 2016, 04:57:54 AM
I never realized it with liner notes.
But many have been the reminders in somewhat older books (including fiction) that French used to be very common as lingua franca (at least for someone educated enough to read such a book at all) until WW II or so (when English took over) and I found it very annoying as well. As I recall it, Tolstoy's War and Peace starts with a dialogue partly in French! Because French was commonly spoken among the Russian upper classes in the 19th century. And older German translations, still commonly reprinted, often do not bother to translate them.
The most notorious example I know is Thomas Mann's "Der Zauberberg" which has a section of several pages (a not at all explicit erotic scene) completely in French and there are editions without a translation as appendix.

Scholarly books until recently often assume that the reader can read at least French and Latin (depending on the subject, of course, but I do not mean English books on French literature, rather e.g. German ones on philosophy) and do not bother with translations of extensive quotations.

German was not unimportant until the 1920s because German speaking scientists and scholars were leading in many fields and publishing in German, also it was still lingua franca in the states that had formerly belonged to the Austrian Empire, but it was never an international language like French, so knowledge of it would not be pre-supposed unless one was reading in certain scholarly fields.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 02, 2016, 05:09:41 PM
Is it unpopular to actually really like Jaap van Zweden's impeccable musicianship and master of orchestral balance in his interpretations based on his recordings as a conductor?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 05:11:58 PM
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 02, 2016, 05:09:41 PM
Is it unpopular to actually really like Jaap van Zweden's impeccable musicianship and master of orchestral balance in his interpretations based on his recordings as a conductor?

Only if you're either a member of the NY press or Norman Lebrecht.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 02, 2016, 05:12:47 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 05:11:58 PM
Only if you're either a member of the NY press or Norman Lebrecht.
Such snobbery :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on February 02, 2016, 10:41:39 PM
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 02, 2016, 05:09:41 PM
Is it unpopular to actually really like Jaap van Zweden's impeccable musicianship and master of orchestral balance in his interpretations based on his recordings as a conductor?
I listened to his Bruckner 8 and was impressed but unmoved, so I'll say yeah. Probably will do his Brahms 3 for the thread in honour, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 02, 2016, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: amw on February 02, 2016, 10:41:39 PM
I listened to his Bruckner 8 and was impressed but unmoved, so I'll say yeah. Probably will do his Brahms 3 for the thread in honour, though.
Looking forward to your thoughts....I just listened to his Brahms 2 (I got myself a nice pocket score recently) and posted my thoughts in the WAYLT thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2016, 12:39:39 PM
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 02, 2016, 05:09:41 PM
Is it unpopular to actually really like Jaap van Zweden's impeccable musicianship and master of orchestral balance in his interpretations based on his recordings as a conductor?
His Bruckner 6 reached the Top Five of a recent GMG Blind Listening Game. #1 and #2 were Klemperer and Celibidache; #3 and #4 I'm forgetting at the moment; Jaap placed #5 and was overall excellent but for a slightly momentum-killing development section in the finale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2016, 01:04:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 03, 2016, 12:39:39 PM
His Bruckner 6 reached the Top Five of a recent GMG Blind Listening Game. #1 and #2 were Klemperer and Celibidache; #3 and #4 I'm forgetting at the moment; Jaap placed #5 and was overall excellent but for a slightly momentum-killing development section in the finale.
Is my memory that faulty? Weren't there FOUR finalists and not five? And didn't Celi come in FIRST? And didn't Zweden tie for second with Klemperer. Fourth, I think was Wand, yes? You're not going to make me use the search engine are you?!?  :'(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2016, 01:06:46 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2016, 01:04:44 PM
Is my memory that faulty? Weren't there FOUR finalists and not five? And didn't Celi come in FIRST? And didn't Zweden tie for second with Klemperer. Fourth, I think was Wand, yes? You're not going to make me use the search engine are you?!?  :'(
I can't remember if Klemperer or Celi came in first. Maybe that was my personal ranking!

And yeah, Wand was in there!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on February 03, 2016, 01:07:07 PM
I remember that! It was my second choice, I think, I was disappointed by stiff conducting and a not so good finale. But thought the orchestra was beautiful and the slow movement possibly the best in comparison. One of the other finalists was Wand on RCA, I don't remember who the last one was? Dohnányi maybe? This felt like a heavily Sergeant Rock-dominated final round >_>

Celibidache was first and Klemperer second, as far as I recall, but it was a difference of a single vote. Don't know whose vote.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2016, 01:08:32 PM
Neal was right, only 4 finalists and Jaap tied Klemps. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg845709.html#msg845709) The person who ranked 'em with Wand 3rd and Jaap 4th was, uh, me.

I agree with amw that Jaap had maybe the best slow movement but also maybe the stiffest conducting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2016, 01:12:37 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 03, 2016, 01:08:32 PM
Neal was right (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg845709.html#msg845709)
Wait, wait. Can you write that again?!?! It doesn't happen often enough!  :-* :P

And I placed Zweden first, but I cannot remember it much (or any of them frankly). I haven't listened to this piece since that blind listening. Guess I'll have to buy it now and see if I still like it...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 03, 2016, 01:38:07 PM
Any opinions on the Bernstein?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 03, 2016, 02:23:45 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 03, 2016, 01:38:07 PM
Any opinions on the Bernstein?
Funny you should say that....before I came to this thread today I was just thinking about Bernstein and made up my mind that I prefer his recordings he made in the 60s and earlier with the NYPO the best. Oh and, his DVD Mahler cycle is to me the best of his three complete Mahler cycles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 03, 2016, 02:32:44 PM
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 03, 2016, 02:23:45 PM
Funny you should say that....before I came to this thread today I was just thinking about Bernstein and made up my mind that I prefer his recordings he made in the 60s and earlier with the NYPO the best. Oh and, his DVD Mahler cycle is to me the best of his three complete Mahler cycles.

See my comments on the Jaap thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Daverz on February 03, 2016, 04:29:33 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 03, 2016, 01:38:07 PM
Any opinions on the Bernstein?

In Bruckner 6?   It's been a while, but I was turned off by the NYP brass sound.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2016, 07:03:17 AM
This is reminding me that I do not believe I have as yet listened to any Bruckner from The Box . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 04, 2016, 07:09:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 04, 2016, 07:03:17 AM
This is reminding me that I do not believe I have as yet listened to any Bruckner from The Box . . .

After that, you have only 59 CDs to go . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2016, 08:15:02 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 04, 2016, 07:09:19 AM
After that, you have only 59 CDs to go . . . .

At a rough guess, I have as yet perhaps listened to 25% 60% of the lot. (I was forgetting that some swaths of the box, I have listened to earlier.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on February 04, 2016, 08:17:50 AM
Hmmm...maybe I should make a Lenny Big Box iPod playlist for my flights to/from NYC next week...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 04:05:54 AM
Smack me upside, but despite having a TON of recordings of Beethoven's 9th, and loving that symphony beyond any other, I still get sleepy whenever I listen to the slow movement. Go ahead, laugh at me, slap my momma, put the beat down on my crazy mammajamma mofo of a bee-hind...but it just lulls me to sleep every time. Reminds me of listening to "Planet Caravan" off of Black Sabbath's Paranoid (oh how I delight in aggravating the preposterous, pretentious boobs by inserting heavy metal 'mongst the Classics!), boring song squeezed in between the good stuff for the sake of dynamics.

Only this recording at least keeps me conscious during the slow movement (and it's hard to beat this freaking recording overall to begin with!).

Bold italics meant in the most preposterously boob-inal, pretentious tone possible in an attempt bemusedly appease the most preposterously boob-inal of us out there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 07:22:36 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 04:05:54 AM
Smack me upside, but despite having a TON of recordings of Beethoven's 9th, and loving that symphony beyond any other, I still get sleepy whenever I listen to the slow movement. Go ahead, laugh at me, slap my momma, put the beat down on my crazy mammajamma mofo of a bee-hind...but it just lulls me to sleep every time. Reminds me of listening to "Planet Caravan" off of Black Sabbath's Paranoid (oh how I delight in aggravating the preposterous, pretentious boobs by inserting heavy metal 'mongst the Classics!), boring song squeezed in between the good stuff for the sake of dynamics.

Only this recording at least keeps me conscious during the slow movement (and it's hard to beat this freaking recording overall to begin with!).

Bold italics meant in the most preposterously boob-inal, pretentious tone possible in an attempt bemusedly appease the most preposterously boob-inal of us out there.

I like the 9th pretty well, but the Eroica and Pastoral get my votes for the best Beethoven symphonies. They're all really good, but these are the ones that stick out in my mind long after I hear them. I'm sure this opinion I just shared is unpopular as well. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 04, 2016, 07:37:23 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 04:05:54 AM
Smack me upside, but despite having a TON of recordings of Beethoven's 9th, and loving that symphony beyond any other, I still get sleepy whenever I listen to the slow movement. Go ahead, laugh at me, slap my momma, put the beat down on my crazy mammajamma mofo of a bee-hind...but it just lulls me to sleep every time. Reminds me of listening to "Planet Caravan" off of Black Sabbath's Paranoid (oh how I delight in aggravating the preposterous, pretentious boobs by inserting heavy metal 'mongst the Classics!), boring song squeezed in between the good stuff for the sake of dynamics.

Only this recording at least keeps me conscious during the slow movement (and it's hard to beat this freaking recording overall to begin with!).

Bold italics meant in the most preposterously boob-inal, pretentious tone possible in an attempt bemusedly appease the most preposterously boob-inal of us out there.
Oh my god is this the so-called Nazi 9th again ?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 07:43:05 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 04, 2016, 07:37:23 AM
Oh my god is this the so-called Nazi 9th again ?

:laugh:

WHAT?

Go lay down.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 04, 2016, 07:48:59 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 07:43:05 AM
:laugh:

WHAT?

Go lay down.
The 1942 Furt B9 is the one where Hitler and Friends were(?) supposedly in the audience and where some think this somehow generate an extra degree of tension in the performance. Do you hear it?

Unless what you have there is ANOTHER 1942 Furt B9, which is possible considering the man must have done at least a dozen of them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 12:20:43 PM
Maybe it would help if I understood your views on the "Nazi" 9th, please. I'm honestly interested.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 04, 2016, 01:02:28 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 12:20:43 PM
Maybe it would help if I understood your views on the "Nazi" 9th, please. I'm honestly interested.
I really don't have a view on the Nazi 9th? It is a decent performance, no better or no worst than most Furt recordings (gimmicky sound, spottily played, bad to average sonics, and erratic tempos). Some people dig that performance because the fact that Hitler and whichever Nazi henchmen in the audience somehow added to the tension, as if that in any way affected Furt's conducting. I am in no way suggesting you are one of those people. or maybe you don't even know the extracurriculars associated with that performance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 04, 2016, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 04, 2016, 01:02:28 PM
I really don't have a view on the Nazi 9th? It is a decent performance, no better or no worst than most Furt recordings (gimmicky sound, spottily played, bad to average sonics, and erratic tempos). Some people dig that performance because the fact that Hitler and whichever Nazi henchmen in the audience somehow added to the tension, as if that in any way affected Furt's conducting. I am in no way suggesting you are one of those people. or maybe you don't even know the extracurriculars associated with that performance.

I do, but I might be a bigger fan of Furtwangler than you seem to be, which is fine.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 05, 2016, 12:00:45 AM
If you fall asleep in the slow movement you might want to try a more flowing version than Furtwängler (who is super slow in this piece).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 05, 2016, 01:08:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 05, 2016, 12:00:45 AM
If you fall asleep in the slow movement you might want to try a more flowing version than Furtwängler (who is super slow in this piece).

You seem to have missed the statement that this is the only recording that doesn't induce sleep.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 05, 2016, 01:27:39 AM
Right. Because it does not make sense! :D Actually, I don't quite see how this movement could be soporific in any case. It is long and slow but both very beautiful and rather varied.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 03:55:52 AM
Quote from: orfeo on July 05, 2016, 01:08:40 AM
You seem to have missed the statement that this is the only recording that doesn't induce sleep.

Thanks, orfeo.


Quote from: Jo498 on July 05, 2016, 01:27:39 AM
Right. Because it does not make sense! :D Actually, I don't quite see how this movement could be soporific in any case. It is long and slow but both very beautiful and rather varied.

So what? That's you, and good for you. This topic is "unpopular opinions".

What you think of it has nothing to do with what I think of it, no offense but I couldn't care less. The post was about what I thought about it, as per the topic.

However, to stay on topic, you are now more than welcome to tell us your own, potentially unpopular opinion. Or whine about what I wrote.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2016, 04:05:45 AM
I don't need to watch a Star Wars movie ever again.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 04:07:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2016, 04:05:45 AM
I don't need to watch a Star Wars movie ever again.

You know, when I was a very little boy I really liked the first two (and I mean the FIRST two). These days all those movies embarrass the hell out of me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on July 05, 2016, 05:13:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2016, 04:05:45 AM
I don't need to watch a Star Wars movie ever again.

We need a new thread: should be popular opinions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 05:23:39 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 05, 2016, 05:13:46 AM
We need a new thread: should be popular opinions.

+1
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 05, 2016, 07:19:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 05, 2016, 01:27:39 AM
Right. Because it does not make sense! :D Actually, I don't quite see how this movement could be soporific in any case. It is long and slow but both very beautiful and rather varied.

Well, that's how I feel about it, but if Andy doesn't like, then Andy doesn't like. He does seem rather belligerent about it (all of us "preposterous, pretentious boobs," "or whine about what I wrote"), but it's just a little surprising to see Furtwängler singled out for praise, as he drags out the movement at about half Beethoven's metronome mark. I'll put in a word for Harnoncourt's version with the COE, one of the high points in that (unpopular opinion) vastly overrated set. Almost alone in a group of performances notable for their fussy mannerisms, Old Saint Nik treats that slow movement as a single seamless paragraph, and it's among the best I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 05, 2016, 07:49:01 AM
I should listen to Harnoncourt again. For some reason his recording of the 9th was never a favorite (my favs from his are 2-4, 7+8), but probably more due to the somewhat lightweight outer movements. I did a little comparison with a handful of recordings a few years back and found that Weingartner in the 1930s is remarkable fluid (a little under 15 min) and transparent. It continues to amaze me that some "crappy mono" recordings by the likes of Weingartner, Toscanini or Kleiber père often bring out certain voices with more clarity than highly regarded 60s-80s stereo recordings.

I actually found that except for the beginning where the melody (in half notes and quarters) can hardly be recognized at Furtwängler's half tempo even slow readings work remarkably well. One reason is that later on there are a lot of figurations that don't drag even at a very slow tempo.

But a more flowing tempo brings out one aspect of the movement that could be described as "serene serenade" better. E.g. the strange wind-dominated section m.83-98 almost oscillates between a choral setting and a wind serenade in character. And later on the figurations in 12/8 are similar to passages in the late quartet variation movements, especially op.127 and 131.

My problem with the 9th is that it is such a rich and intense piece (also long) that I rarely find the leisure to listen to it in the way it deserves. To be honest I listen to all kinds of music in ways it does not deserve (that is with far less than full attention) but for some reason I cannot do it with Beethoven's 9th.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 08:30:13 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 05, 2016, 07:19:29 AM
Well, that's how I feel about it, but if Andy doesn't like, then Andy doesn't like. He does seem rather belligerent about it (all of us "preposterous, pretentious boobs," "or whine about what I wrote"), but it's just a little surprising to see Furtwängler singled out for praise, as he drags out the movement at about half Beethoven's metronome mark. I'll put in a word for Harnoncourt's version with the COE, one of the high points in that (unpopular opinion) vastly overrated set. Almost alone in a group of performances notable for their fussy mannerisms, Old Saint Nik treats that slow movement as a single seamless paragraph, and it's among the best I've ever heard.

I do apologize, I don't think of you as a preposterous, pretentious boob (though it tickles me to say it). And that part about whining was not cool. Forgive, please.

If I remember correctly, the Harnoncourt is good. My favorites are actually the 60s Karajan (from the classic set whose name escapes me at the moment) and (though some might think it strange) the Karajan dvd from whenever.  This one: http://www.allmusic.com/album/beethoven-symphony-no-9-dvd-video-mw0001421522

But I'm generally about Karajan on Beethoven, the aforementioned 60s set is a lifetime staple for me. There was another, 70s vinyl I had that was really good, but I can't recall the actual release.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on July 05, 2016, 10:14:10 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 05, 2016, 01:27:39 AM
Right. Because it does not make sense! :D Actually, I don't quite see how this movement could be soporific in any case. It is long and slow but both very beautiful and rather varied.

#LullabiedByBeauty

TD: Not sure how popular/unpopular this is, but I don't see any problem with anybody recording works multiple times. (I grant, though, that Wand's Bruckner discography is out of control.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2016, 10:15:36 AM
Quote from: Pat B on July 05, 2016, 10:14:10 AM
(I grant, though, that Wand's Bruckner discography is out of control.)

I can stop anytime . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 11:14:24 AM
Quote from: Pat B on July 05, 2016, 10:14:10 AM
#LullabiedByBeauty

Wand's Bruckner discography is out of control.)

I have (I guess one of) his Bruckner's 9ths on dvd, like it. Nothing replaces Karajan in the church though imo. My favorite piece (by far) of Bruckner's.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 05, 2016, 11:18:55 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 08:30:13 AM
I do apologize, I don't think of you as a preposterous, pretentious boob (though it tickles me to say it). And that part about whining was not cool. Forgive, please.

That's quite all right, Andy. I am entirely willing to plead guilty to "pretentious"; it's "preposterous" and "boob" to which I object.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 12:39:47 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 05, 2016, 11:18:55 AM
That's quite all right, Andy. I am entirely willing to plead guilty to "pretentious"; it's "preposterous" and "boob" to which I object.

LOL! But "preposterous boob"...it's kinda fun to say. Try it (whilst summoning up the most over the top, officious mannerism): "you preposterous BOOB!". Trust me, you'll at least get a smile.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 17, 2016, 10:08:19 PM
Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonate and the Grosse Fuga are failures on an epic scale, and both pieces are excessively ugly-sounding.

... or, those particular objects as subject aside, people adore and revere the weirdest things.




Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 17, 2016, 10:59:16 PM
Do you find the first three movements of op.106 also ugly? And is the failure of these works mainly their ugliness or something else? It sound as if the ugliness came on top of the epic failure...
(overall probably not that unpopular, at least not in former times)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on August 21, 2016, 12:31:57 AM
Music is very small and underdeveloped.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on August 21, 2016, 08:18:09 AM
Quote from: Uhor on August 21, 2016, 12:31:57 AM
Music is very small and underdeveloped.
Compared to what? Noise?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ghost Sonata on August 21, 2016, 08:33:36 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 05, 2016, 11:14:24 AM
I have (I guess one of) his Bruckner's 9ths on dvd, like it. Nothing replaces Karajan in the church though imo. My favorite piece (by far) of Bruckner's.

Yup! to both of those pretentiously preposterous propositions. 
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2016, 08:34:53 AM
Postpreporous!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 21, 2016, 08:35:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2016, 08:34:53 AM
Postpreporous!
Profoundly so.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 21, 2016, 11:11:09 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 17, 2016, 10:08:19 PM
Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonate and the Grosse Fuga are failures on an epic scale, and both pieces are excessively ugly-sounding.

Don´t be too harsh on the poor devil, next time he´ll do better, so much so as your benevolent advice, expert guidance and renowned compositional skills would undoubtedly be of invaluable service to him...

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 21, 2016, 12:09:25 PM
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2016, 11:11:09 AM
Don´t be too harsh on the poor devil, next time he´ll do better, so much so as your benevolent advice, expert guidance and renowned compositional skills would undoubtedly be of invaluable service to him...

Uh, you do know that Luigi needs absolutely no help or advice from anyone?  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2016, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 29, 2016, 07:46:49 PM
Got it!!

Mr. Snuffleupagus missed his calling by slumming on Sesame Street. He should've busted a move on Chewbacca and taken his rightful place as Han Solo's sidekick.



(http://documentlibrary.demos.concrete5.org/files/5212/9115/6069/Snuffleupagus_Sesame_Street.jpg)

Let's not forget the Mr. Snuffleupagus debacle!! Just because it hasn't come up in a while doesn't mean the issue has gone away!!

How can one not be aghast at Mr. Snuffleupagus's thoroughly shoddy treatment and all-around snubbing at the hands of the Hollywood "elite"??

Where was Mr. Snuff when the Hollywood snobs were handing out the lead in television's famous "ALF"??

Where was the consideration when it came time to pick a mega-saurus in the blockbuster Jurassic Park III? Spino??? Way to go Spielberg.....

And, what? That sniveling, half-pint canine as Toto?? Don't get me started!!!!!!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on August 22, 2016, 05:14:21 PM
If total serialism were a problem, it was abandoned before it was solved.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Wanderer on August 23, 2016, 01:43:57 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 17, 2016, 10:08:19 PM
...are failures on an epic scale, and both pieces are excessively ugly-sounding.

This does describe most of the aural products of Xenakis, Stockhausen or the Durmstrang ilk rather more accurately than it does Beethoven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Wanderer on August 23, 2016, 01:46:36 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 21, 2016, 08:18:09 AM
Compared to what? Noise?

Apparently.


Quote from: Uhor on August 22, 2016, 05:14:21 PM
If total serialism were a problem, it was abandoned before it was solved.

Bummer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on January 03, 2017, 06:43:55 PM
Resurrecting this thread.  Don't know if it has been mentioned before in this thread, but upon re-listening to Op 130, I must say that the revised ending is much better than the Grosse Fugue, and there is a somewhat plausible chance that I never listen to the fugal ending again.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2017, 12:18:41 AM
It was probably in another thread but I remember a little discussion, probably with poco sf and amw about the pros/cons of the fugue vs. the replacement finale. Some favored to have the fugue as a separate piece and preferred the replacement as finale but I don't think anyone found that the fugue is a weaker piece than the replacement.
And elsewhere I have seen statements like that the replacement was a weak and banal piece; there are also at least two recordings by rather famous ensembles that contain only the fugue (Hagen and Artemis) which I find discographically repulsive because I think the listener should be able to decide which one he prefers.
So I guess your opinion qualifies as unpopular... ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 04, 2017, 02:09:44 AM
Discussing possible titles for the Foote thread is more interesting than his music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 04, 2017, 02:13:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 04, 2017, 02:09:44 AM
Discussing possible titles for the Foote thread is more interesting than his music.
+1  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 04, 2017, 05:45:50 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 03, 2017, 06:43:55 PM
Resurrecting this thread.  Don't know if it has been mentioned before in this thread, but upon re-listening to Op 130, I must say that the revised ending is much better than the Grosse Fugue, and there is a somewhat plausible chance that I never listen to the fugal ending again.

The Fugue is more closely connected to the motivic material of the other movements than the replacement, and on those grounds alone I think it is the better ending.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 04, 2017, 06:16:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 03, 2017, 06:43:55 PM
Resurrecting this thread.  Don't know if it has been mentioned before in this thread, but upon re-listening to Op 130, I must say that the revised ending is much better than the Grosse Fugue, and there is a somewhat plausible chance that I never listen to the fugal ending again.

Don't make that choice until you have heard Furtwangler's Weiner Philharmoniker recording.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 04, 2017, 06:19:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 04, 2017, 02:09:44 AM
Discussing possible titles for the Foote thread is more interesting than his music.
Oh, Karl. That's not nice - and from a fellow composer! I think you better hot foote it out of here!! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 04, 2017, 07:36:53 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 04, 2017, 06:19:25 AM
Oh, Karl. That's not nice - and from a fellow composer! I think you better hot foote it out of here!! :)

It's not my opinion--I've not heard any Foote yet  8) But it would be an unpopular one.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2017, 07:54:49 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 04, 2017, 06:16:01 AM
Don't make that choice until you have heard Furtwangler's Wiener Philharmoniker recording.
But one cannot listen to Furtwängler as the ending of the quartet because it is fugue only.

I think both options are valid: As Mahlerian said, the fugue is motivically more clearly related to material of the earlier movements and makes for a stunning finale, similar to the 9th symphony or op.106. But it also tends to overwhelm the rest of the piece and it can stand on its own quite well (although obviously the motivic relations are somewhat moot if op.133 is played alone).
The rondo finale is more in line with the divertimento character of movements 2-4 and does not overwhelm the rest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 04, 2017, 08:16:31 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 04, 2017, 07:54:49 AM
But one cannot listen to Furtwängler as the ending of the quartet because it is fugue only.

I think both options are valid: As Mahlerian said, the fugue is motivically more clearly related to material of the earlier movements and makes for a stunning finale, similar to the 9th symphony or op.106. But it also tends to overwhelm the rest of the piece and it can stand on its own quite well (although obviously the motivic relations are somewhat moot if op.133 is played alone).
The rondo finale is more in line with the divertimento character of movements 2-4 and does not overwhelm the rest.

Depends on how you interpret Todd's statement. I assumed he would not listen to the Fugue, full stop.

Originally I was a stickler for Beethoven's original intention, but have come around to preferring the replacement finale. The consensus of the linear note writers seems to be that Beethoven's original choice was right and he was cowered into producing a more palatable finale by the publishers. But when did Beethoven ever take suggestions? He must have come to feel that the Fugue was over that top and better as a freestanding piece.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on January 04, 2017, 08:20:39 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 04, 2017, 08:16:31 AMDepends on how you interpret Todd's statement. I assumed he would not listen to the Fugue, full stop.


As an ending to the quartet only.  Stand-alone for string orchestra is fine. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2017, 09:07:31 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 04, 2017, 06:19:25 AM
Oh, Karl. That's not nice - and from a fellow composer! I think you better hot foote it out of here!! :)

Now you've really put your foot in it.
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 04, 2017, 09:23:33 AM
Footwängler

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 04, 2017, 09:53:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 04, 2017, 02:09:44 AM
Discussing possible titles for the Foote thread is more interesting than his music.
Karl, with Foote in mouth!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2017, 10:46:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 04, 2017, 07:54:49 AM
But one cannot listen to Furtwängler as the ending of the quartet because it is fugue only.

I think both options are valid: As Mahlerian said, the fugue is motivically more clearly related to material of the earlier movements and makes for a stunning finale, similar to the 9th symphony or op.106. But it also tends to overwhelm the rest of the piece and it can stand on its own quite well (although obviously the motivic relations are somewhat moot if op.133 is played alone).
The rondo finale is more in line with the divertimento character of movements 2-4 and does not overwhelm the rest.

I am less concerned with the motivic relations than with the progression of the movements, and the Fugue does overwhelm the rest of the quartet while the rondo is more in keeping with the earlier movements, as well as being a delightful movement in itself that has no other place to be heard except possibly as an encore piece. With the Fugue, Beethoven had achieved something very original: a self-contained one-movement work that contains within it the equivalent of an opening movement, moderately slow movement, and scherzo finale. It's the only movement from all the quartets that can stand alone as an independent work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 04, 2017, 11:06:58 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2017, 10:46:03 AM
I am less concerned with the motivic relations than with the progression of the movements, and the Fugue does overwhelm the rest of the quartet while the rondo is more in keeping with the earlier movements, as well as being a delightful movement in itself that has no other place to be heard except possibly as an encore piece. With the Fugue, Beethoven had achieved something very original: a self-contained one-movement work that contains within it the equivalent of an opening movement, moderately slow movement, and scherzo finale. It's the only movement from all the quartets that can stand alone as an independent work.
So does Bach's Partita no. 2 for solo violin need a new finale, too?  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 04, 2017, 11:09:41 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 04, 2017, 11:06:58 AM
So does Bach's Partita no. 2 for solo violin need a new finale, too?  8)
As long as we all agree Beethoven's 9th needs a new final, I'm happy!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 04, 2017, 11:48:11 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 04, 2017, 08:16:31 AM
Originally I was a stickler for Beethoven's original intention, but have come around to preferring the replacement finale. The consensus of the linear note writers seems to be that Beethoven's original choice was right and he was cowered into producing a more palatable finale by the publishers. But when did Beethoven ever take suggestions? He must have come to feel that the Fugue was over that top and better as a freestanding piece.

And it is far from the only time that Beethoven went switching movements.

If it's unpopular opinions we're after, maybe I should start a campaign to re-insert the Andante Favori back into the Waldstein piano sonata. And put the finale of the Kreutzer violin sonata back in its rightful place.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2017, 12:13:38 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 04, 2017, 08:16:31 AM
But when did Beethoven ever take suggestions?

Not often. But he also came to accept the suggestions that made "Leonora" the familiar "Fidelio" we know.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2017, 12:48:02 PM
The difference between the Waldstein and op.30/Kreutzer cases and op.130/133 is that the changes in the first two pieces took place before they were performed publicly. op.130 was performed with the Fugue and while the two short movements had to be encored, the fugue was met with puzzlement. Except for the complicated history of Leonore/Fidelio I think op.130/133 really is the only case of a major change in a piece that had been considered finished and was publicly performed in Beethoven's oeuvre.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 04, 2017, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: Ken B on January 04, 2017, 11:09:41 AM
As long as we all agree Beethoven's 9th needs a new final, I'm happy!

I think I have expressed that unpopular opinion as well, maybe on this thread. I recall reading that Beethoven himself was dissatisfied with the finale of the 9th and had plans to replace it with an instrumental finale. That would have been something to hear, had he lived long enough to carry through with it.

Basically, I think the finale of the 9th would work fine on its own as a Cantata. The silly stunt of audition and rejecting the themes of the previous movements before the ode to joy theme is introduced brings home to me the lack of an organic connection between the first three movements of the 9th and the finale. And, to cap it off, if Beethoven hadn't introduced a chorus in his symphony, maybe no one else would have dared and we would have been spared numerous dreadful choral symphonies.

But of course, it is one of the most popular symphonies in history, so who am I to criticize?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PotashPie on January 04, 2017, 01:19:11 PM
I think it is unpopular to go against the idea that music is basically a sensual experience, and needs less "brain" input;

...or that listening "without thinking," like sinking into a warm bubble-bath, is somehow just as rewarding as listening with intellectual awareness.

I am against this "mindless" approach. I am constantly making efforts to penetrate the meaning of music as I listen, and it has been paying-off big time.

The more I read and understand about music, the better and more immersive my listening experience becomes.

This is based on a proper "cart and horse" relationship between sensuality and the intellect. The intellect should know when to "let go," as well as when to "kick in" and be the guide.

This leads to a well-balanced blend of intellect, and sensuality, which I call "intuitive listening."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: starrynight on January 05, 2017, 08:53:59 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 04, 2017, 08:16:31 AM
The consensus of the linear note writers seems to be that Beethoven's original choice was right and he was cowered into producing a more palatable finale by the publishers. But when did Beethoven ever take suggestions? He must have come to feel that the Fugue was over that top and better as a freestanding piece.

Or he was happy just to get some more money at that point with the Grosse Fugue published separately.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 05, 2017, 09:14:32 AM
This is discussed in the literature. He got a little more money but not so much that it should have been a decisive factor (as he had to compose the alternate finale he also had to do more work for that money). As far as I remember he also agreed to do the 4-hand version when they had agreed to publish it separately so it could also have been the case that Beethoven really wanted people to understand the piece more deeply if it was separated and also available to be played on piano.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 05, 2017, 09:18:30 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 05, 2017, 09:14:32 AM
This is discussed in the literature. He got a little more money but not so much that it should have been a decisive factor (as he had to compose the alternate finale he also had to do more work for that money). As far as I remember he also agreed to do the 4-hand version when they had agreed to publish it separately so it could also have been the case that Beethoven really wanted people to understand the piece more deeply if it was separated and also available to be played on piano.

Was the 4-hand version ever produced, or left undone at his death?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 05, 2017, 09:36:19 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 05, 2017, 09:18:30 AM
Was the 4-hand version ever produced, or left undone at his death?
Quoth Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fe_Fuge#Arrangement_for_piano_four-hands):
QuoteIn early 1826, the publisher of the Op. 130 String Quartet, Mathias Artaria, told Beethoven there were "many requests" for a piano four-hand arrangement of the Große Fuge.[73] This was well before any discussion of separating the fugue from the main body of the quartet. Artaria asked Beethoven to prepare the arrangement, but Beethoven was not interested, so Artaria instead asked Anton Halm to prepare it. Beethoven was not satisfied with Halm's work and subsequently made his own note-for-note arrangement of the quartet. Beethoven's arrangement was completed subsequent to the C♯ minor String Quartet, Op. 131 and was published by Artaria as Op. 134.[74]
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 05, 2017, 02:43:07 PM
With a few exceptions (Haydn, Mozart), the music of the second half of the 18th century is the least interesting in the history of music. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 05, 2017, 03:35:34 PM
Quote from: jessop on January 05, 2017, 02:43:07 PM
With a few exceptions (Haydn, Mozart), the music of the second half of the 18th century is the least interesting in the history of music. :P
What about e.g. CPE Bach's empfindsamer Stil?
https://www.youtube.com/v/I9VEW1fK70c
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 05, 2017, 03:38:31 PM
Quote from: North Star on January 05, 2017, 09:36:19 AM
Quoth Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fe_Fuge#Arrangement_for_piano_four-hands):

I could have looked that up, I guess. I wonder if the 4 hands piano version is worth hearing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 05, 2017, 06:47:49 PM
Quote from: jessop on January 05, 2017, 02:43:07 PM
With a few exceptions (Haydn, Mozart), the music of the second half of the 18th century is the least interesting in the history of music. :P
Well as Karlo says, CPE Bach. But this is not an unpopular opinion particularly. Only two composers from the era are really well known. And some, like Ditters von Dittersdorf, are known mainly as objects of mockery.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 05, 2017, 09:25:45 PM
Re CPE Bach: 'a few' (as I said) does not constitute only TWO composers. I do love CPE's music very much.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 05, 2017, 09:27:49 PM
Quote from: Ken B on January 05, 2017, 06:47:49 PM
Well as Karlo says, CPE Bach. But this is not an unpopular opinion particularly. Only two composers from the era are really well known. And some, like Ditters von Dittersdorf, are known mainly as objects of mockery.
For an era which is superficially the 'image' of classical music, it is then rather striking that not too many composers are popular from that time!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on January 05, 2017, 11:30:25 PM
Quote from: jessop on January 05, 2017, 02:43:07 PM
With a few exceptions (Haydn, Mozart), the music of the second half of the 18th century is the least interesting in the history of music. :P
Definitely the period I listen the least to. But I would like to add Gluck (dead in 1787) to the list of interesting composers, his late "reform operas" are masterpieces.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 05, 2017, 11:56:59 PM
If only due to Haydn, Mozart but also for some Gluck (especially the Iphigenie-operas are closer than almost anything before Mozart to what we understand as musical drama), early Beethoven and maybe a little CPE Bach and Boccherini I think the period is considerably more listened to than the second half of the 17th century (and of course any music before Monteverdi because this is usually considered specialist fare).
And with all respect due to Purcell, Biber or Corelli, I think Mozart and Haydn alone easily make 1750-1800 more attractive for me than 1650-1700.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2017, 01:49:08 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 05, 2017, 11:56:59 PM
And with all respect due to Purcell, Biber or Corelli, I think Mozart and Haydn alone easily make 1750-1800 more attractive for me than 1650-1700.

Of course for less ignorant people 1650-1700 has more to offer than just Purcell, Biber or Corelli:

Marc-Antoine Charpentier
Jean-Baptiste Lully
Matthias Weckmann
Dietrich Buxtehude
Nikolaus Bruhns

To name some of the most important names.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 06, 2017, 01:57:12 AM
Sure, or Alessandro Scarlatti, Pachelbel, Charpentier.
For less ignorant people there are also far more names in 1750-1800 than Haydn, Mozart, Gluck. This does not change the point at all that for most listeners Haydn and Mozart are sufficiently weighty to make this half century very important.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 06, 2017, 03:47:09 AM
Quote from: jessop on January 05, 2017, 09:25:45 PM
Re CPE Bach: 'a few' (as I said) does not constitute only TWO composers. I do love CPE's music very much.
Excellent, I was just checking ;) And I can't say I'm very enthusiastic about the era either, apart from a half a dozen names.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 06, 2017, 04:00:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2017, 01:49:08 AM
Of course for less ignorant people 1650-1700 has more to offer than just Purcell, Biber or Corelli:

Marc-Antoine Charpentier
Jean-Baptiste Lully
Matthias Weckmann
Dietrich Buxtehude
Nikolaus Bruhns

To name some of the most important names.

Or Froberger, Schmelzer, Marais, Louis Couperin, Caldara, Henri du Mont, Rosenmüller, Strozzi, Locke, Alessandro Melani, Bassani, de Visée, Muffat, Veracini, Campra, Kuhnau.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 06, 2017, 04:00:50 AM
The point is not really some names but that almost all forms and genres that dominated until far into the 20th century were developed and firmly established in the second half of the 18th century: Symphony, string quartet, piano sonata and all the other sonata-based genres like piano trio, duo sonata etc., solo concerto with symphonic elements, maybe even the art song in the form that dominated the 19th+20th century. Also the shape of the "modern" symphony orchestra and the modern public concert for a paying audience stems from that time. And Mozart's and Gluck's operas should not be underestimated either. It is not an accident that some of these operas were the first ones that survived their composers and remained in the repertoire almost ever since.

Of the 6 half centuries between 1600 and 1900 1750-1800 is probably the most influential (although one could maybe make a case for the early 1600s as well). It certainly is the most influential if we look at the genres dominating the repertoire today.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on January 06, 2017, 08:23:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2017, 01:49:08 AM
Of course for less ignorant people 1650-1700 has more to offer than just Purcell, Biber or Corelli:

If you're going to miss the point, you might as well be rude about it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 08:50:55 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 06, 2017, 04:00:50 AM
The point is not really some names but almost all forms and genres that dominated until far into the 20th century were all developed and firmly established in the second half of the 18th century: Symphony, string quartet, piano sonata and all the other sonata-based genres like piano trio, duo sonata etc., solo concerto with symphonic elements, maybe even the art song in the form that dominated the 19th+20th century. Also the shape of the "modern" symphony orchestra and the modern public concert for a paying audience stems from that time. And Mozart's and Gluck's operas should not be underestimated either. It is not an accident that they were the first operas that survived their composers and remained in the repertoire almost ever since.

Of the 6 half centuries between 1600 and 1900 1750-1800 is probably the most influential (although one could maybe make a case for the early 1600s as well). It certainly is the most influential if we look at the genres dominating the repertoire today.

Good points.  (My vote is for 1590-1610 in terms of influence btw)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 11:55:18 AM
Quote from: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 08:50:55 AM
Good points.

+ 1.

Quote
My vote is for 1590-1610 in terms of influence btw

Except for opera, how many of the genres which flourished in that timespan survived it for more than 50 years? What composer of that timespan can be said to have had tremendous, enormous and huge influence on any other composer outside the operatic field?  ;D

Jo is spot on: 1750-1800 is the most influential period of classical music, period.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 06, 2017, 12:03:50 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 11:55:18 AMExcept for opera, how many of the genres which flourished in that timespan survived it for more than 50 years? What composer of that timespan can be said to have had tremendous, enormous and huge influence on any other composer outside the operatic field?  ;D
Common-practice tonality was the mainstream until well into the 20th Century..
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 06, 2017, 12:12:29 PM
Quote from: North Star on January 06, 2017, 12:03:50 PM
Common-practice tonality was the mainstream until well into the 20th Century..

In some circles, but the harmony in Copland, Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich, Ravel, and so forth depend on the freedom allowed by ignoring or destroying functional harmony.

Strauss is an outlier, Franz Schmidt also.  Common practice tonality was long dead by 1950, and post-tonality was the mainstream.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:16:39 PM
Quote from: North Star on January 06, 2017, 12:03:50 PM
Common-practice tonality was the mainstream until well into the 20th Century..

Yes, but common-practice tonality is neither a genre nor a composer.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2017, 12:24:36 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 11:55:18 AM
+ 1.

Except for opera, how many of the genres which flourished in that timespan survived it for more than 50 years? What composer of that timespan can be said to have had tremendous, enormous and huge influence on any other composer outside the operatic field?  ;D

Jo is spot on: 1750-1800 is the most influential period of classical music, period.
This is like saying 'except for Haydn', which is not really helpful. I don't buy the 1750-1800 period, but I do buy the early 1600s. And there are plenty of composers to name, though Monteverdi is probably the pivotal one. Still, isn't the symphony and string quartet dead today? As a whole, do you think they have the relevance they used to have?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 11:55:18 AM
+ 1.

Except for opera, how many of the genres which flourished in that timespan survived it for more than 50 years? What composer of that timespan can be said to have had tremendous, enormous and huge influence on any other composer outside the operatic field?  ;D
Umm, the whole modern harmonic system? Caccini, Monteverdi, Gabrielli for example.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2017, 12:24:36 PM
isn't the symphony and string quartet dead today? As a whole, do you think they have the relevance they used to have?

They (together with other genres such as the instrumental concert or the solo/duo piano sonata or piano trio) are still the backbone of most symphonic concerts or chamber music recitals offered today across the world.

They might not have the relevance they used to have for composers, but for the general audience, orchestras and soloists alike they are as alive as it gets. For evidence, look no further than the WAYLT thread or the 2017 schedule of any major orchestra / concert hall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 12:35:28 PM
Setting aside that King James thingy, how can call 1611 an influential year in the English language? I mean, people don't write Gospels or Apocalypses anymore.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:37:40 PM
Quote from: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 12:31:03 PM
Caccini, Monteverdi, Gabrielli

Okay, which classical / romantic / modern composer --- ie, post 1750 --- acknowledged being essentially and heavily influenced by these three?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:39:27 PM
Quote from: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 12:35:28 PM
Setting aside that King James thingy, how can call 1611 an influential year in the English language? I mean, people don't write Gospels or Apocalypses anymore.

Strawman and apples&oranges all in one. Way to go, my friend!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 06, 2017, 02:36:39 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:37:40 PM
Okay, which classical / romantic / modern composer --- ie, post 1750 --- acknowledged being essentially and heavily influenced by these three?
All of them were the product of the changes in style that began with these composers. They are the earliest real examples of a shift from polyphonic style to the increased emphasis on vertical triadic harmony in composition.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 05:37:20 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:37:40 PM
Okay, which classical / romantic / modern composer --- ie, post 1750 --- acknowledged being essentially and heavily influenced by these three?
Anyone who used a key.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 05:44:16 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:39:27 PM
Strawman and apples&oranges all in one. Way to go, my friend!  :laugh:
Do be (quite so) silly Andrei. English grammar and syntax and idioms are all heavily influenced by the KJV. That is also the period of Shakespeare. Certainly more influential and formative than any subsequent period. Well, 1590-1610 is like that for music. Keys, mainstream harmony, monody, and even our modern notation all form more or less in those 20 years.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2017, 07:00:33 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
They (together with other genres such as the instrumental concert or the solo/duo piano sonata or piano trio) are still the backbone of most symphonic concerts or chamber music recitals offered today across the world.

They might not have the relevance they used to have for composers, but for the general audience, orchestras and soloists alike they are as alive as it gets. For evidence, look no further than the WAYLT thread or the 2017 schedule of any major orchestra / concert hall.
You make my argument for me. How many of those schedules have symphonies and quartets written in the last 20 years. Heck, go back 50 years if you like. Somewhere in the 20th century, writing a symphony (for example) no longer attains the status it once did (in fact, it takes a nosedive).

I think there are differences though in the changes that took place in these periods, so perhaps that is part of the issue. Baroque seems to me something of a break with the earlier period (renaissance), while the later classical period seems to me an evolution of forms/structures. Of course, that simplifies things, but that is the heart of my thinking. Do you disagree with that characterization?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 06, 2017, 10:04:21 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2017, 07:00:33 PM
You make my argument for me. How many of those schedules have symphonies and quartets written in the last 20 years. Heck, go back 50 years if you like. Somewhere in the 20th century, writing a symphony (for example) no longer attains the status it once did (in fact, it takes a nosedive).

Yeah, but elsewhere on the forum are busily arguing that using the stuff developed around 1590-1610 is old hat as well. So you kill that off too. You don't demonstrate any kind of priority of Monteverdi over Haydn by declaring people don't do symphonies and quartets any more. They don't do C major any more, either.

Declaring your opponent's thesis dead doesn't help you if your thesis was killed by the same stroke.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 07, 2017, 12:33:08 AM
Obviously all sharp cuts or claims that x was singlehandedly introduced by y or in narrow timeframe t are simplifications. This is even true for "revolutions" like the monody and other innovations around 1600. A lot of 17th century music sounds fairly odd to modern ears, it is not an accident that when people say "baroque" they almost always mean late baroque, namely Bach, Handel, Vivaldi (all far closer it time to Haydn than to Monteverdi) all of which sound far more functional-tonal than Monteverdi or Schütz. So I think one cannot pin the "modern" (i.e. functional) harmony on the early 17th century when it took until Rameau to become standard.

Now look at 1750-1800.

First of all, it does hardly make sense to evaluate this period "except for Haydn and Mozart" because they were by far the most important composers of the period and are obviously far more central for today's repertoire and most listeners today than anyone earlier, except JS Bach and maybe Monteverdi and Handel. (Just for a test: 1700-1750 would immediately drop to negligible for almost everyone if one said: without Bach, Vivaldi and Handel. It is true that Haydn and Mozart dominate that period in our perception maybe even more than those three the first half but it is not a large difference.)

Now the genres: True, some of them existed before, although not by much if one takes the later standard forms of e.g. the symphony. But it can hardly be denied that if one picks any important instrumental piece between 1800 and 1930, it is very likely to conform to or be very close to the forms and genres established in the late 18th century. There are far more important symphonies, string quartets or piano trios in the 19th and early 20th century than there are concerti grossi, church sonatas, toccatas or suites of dance movements. And 1930 is an early cutoff. There are important "classicist" pieces even in the 1970s (e.g. late Shostakovich). And there can also be no question that music from ca. 1780 until the 1930s or so dominates the current repertoire. So going by what is played most frequently in professional concerts today, most frequently recorded, it will also be the genres and forms established in the late 18th century. Without a doubt, there are also forms established later ("miniatures" usually for keyboard, unless one counts Rameau and Couperin, and art songs certainly became far more important in the 19th century), there are also fields where said period is almost negligible (organ and choral music).

Finally, as said above, the first operas that remained in the repertoire are from that time, 19th century German opera including Wagner would not have been possible without Mozart's pioneering achievements (one could probably also argue that Mozart set a striking example for an uncommonly rich and important role for the orchestra and "instrumental" forms in opera, again this seems important for the development of musical drama), and 3-4 operas by Mozart still make the top 10-15 of the most frequently played/staged ones more than 200 years later.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2017, 01:34:54 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2017, 07:00:33 PM
Baroque seems to me something of a break with the earlier period (renaissance), while the later classical period seems to me an evolution of forms/structures. Of course, that simplifies things, but that is the heart of my thinking. Do you disagree with that characterization?

No, I don´t.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2017, 01:36:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 07, 2017, 12:33:08 AM
Obviously all sharp cuts or claims that x was singlehandedly introduced by x or in narrow timeframe t are simplifications. This is even true for "revolutions" like the monody and other innovations around 1600. A lot of 17th century music sounds fairly odd to modern ears, it is not an accident that when people say "baroque" they almost alwas mean late baroque, namely Bach, Handel, Vivaldi all of which sound far more functional-tonal than Monteverdi or Schütz. So I think one cannot pin the "modern" (i.e. functional) harmony on the early 17th century when it took until Rameau to become standard.

Now look at 1750-1800.

First of all, it does hardly make sense to evaluate this period "except for Haydn and Mozart" because they were by far the most important composers of the period and are obviously far more central for today's repertoire and most listeners today than anyone earlier, except JS Bach and maybe Monteverdi and Handel. (Just for a test: 1700-1750 would immediately drop to negligible for almost everyone if one said: without Bach, Vivaldi and Handel. It is true that Haydn and Mozart dominate that period in our perception maybe even more than those three the first half but it is not a large difference.)

Now the genres: True, some of them existed before, although not by much if one takes the later standard forms of e.g. the symphony. But it can hardly be denied that if one picks any important instrumental piece between 1800 and 1930, it is very likely to conform to or be very close to the forms and genres established in the late 18th century. There are far more important symphonies, string quartets or piano trios in the 19th and early 20th century than there are concerti grossi, church sonatas, toccatas or suites of dance movements. And 1930 is an early cutoff. There are important "classicist" pieces even in the 1970s (e.g. late Shostakovich). And there can also be no question that music from ca. 1780 until the 1930s or so dominates the current repertoire. So going by what is played most frequently in professional concerts today, most frequently recorded, it will also be the genres and forms established in the late 18th century. Without a doubt, there are also forms established later ("miniatures" usually for keyboard, unless one counts Rameau and Couperin, and art songs certainly became far more important in the 19th century), there are also fields where said period is almost negligible (organ and choral music).

Finally, as said above, the first operas that remained in the repertoire are from that time, 19th century German opera including Wagner would not have been possible without Mozart's pioneering achievements (one could probably also argue that Mozart set a striking example for an uncommonly rich and important role for the orchestra and "instrumental" forms in opera, again this seems important for the development of musical drama), and 3-4 operas by Mozart still make the top 10-15 of the most frequently played/staged ones more than 200 years later.

Amen!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2017, 02:31:00 AM
Quote from: Ken B on January 06, 2017, 05:44:16 PM
English grammar and syntax and idioms are all heavily influenced by the KJV.

I can´t remember where and when I denied that. Like I said, strawman.

Quote
That is also the period of Shakespeare. Certainly more influential and formative than any subsequent period.

Moving the goalpost, huh? First influential, now formative*.

Quote
Well, 1590-1610 is like that for music.

You offer something which has been widely read ever since it was published and has become something of an English national treasure and cultural icon (King James´ Bible) as an analogy for something which had disappeared from Italian public musical life for almost 250 years and had it not been for the 20th century revivals and especially the advent of the recording technology and industry would have laid dormant for another 250 (the music of around 1600). Like I said, apples and oranges.

*Look, I don´t deny the quality of Monteverdi´s or Caccini´s or Gabrielli´s music, which is indeed exceptional. But to claim that it has been more influential than that of Haydn or Mozart or Beethoven is an exaggeration. On the other hand, I quite agree with "formative".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 07, 2017, 07:32:38 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 06, 2017, 10:04:21 PM
Yeah, but elsewhere on the forum are busily arguing that using the stuff developed around 1590-1610 is old hat as well. So you kill that off too. You don't demonstrate any kind of priority of Monteverdi over Haydn by declaring people don't do symphonies and quartets any more. They don't do C major any more, either.

Declaring your opponent's thesis dead doesn't help you if your thesis was killed by the same stroke.
I'm ok with that, because I am not saying that the extension of those forms/structures to today is important in deciding which period had more influence. It doesn't have much weight (if any) in my view. One can objectively list what did have influence, but then which is more important is subjective to a good degree.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 07, 2017, 10:14:03 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 06, 2017, 08:23:44 AM
If you're going to miss the point, you might as well be rude about it.
My opinions are unpopular even in "Unpopular Opinions" section. That says alot!  >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 07, 2017, 12:45:55 PM
No Andrei. I am not arguing monteverdi is more popular than Mozart. But I do argue western music changed more as a result of the doings of that 20 year period that it did as a result of the other 50 year period.

Darwin is more influential than any biologist since,  but he is cited in papers less than many others. That seems the analogy of your measure of influence,  where composers cite Mozart not caccini. It's a bad measure in biology and in art.

Formative is a form of influential!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 07, 2017, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2017, 02:31:00 AM
*Look, I don´t deny the quality of Monteverdi´s or Caccini´s or Gabrielli´s music, which is indeed exceptional. But to claim that it has been more influential than that of Haydn or Mozart or Beethoven is an exaggeration.
Why? I think perhaps you're using the word 'influence' too literally. Haydn and Mozart are more clearly influencers, in part because they are closer in time to us (well, and for other reasons). I think it is perhaps a question of collective influence vs individual influence. This is why I mentioned how I think of it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on January 09, 2017, 03:35:59 AM
Unpopular opinion: I really appreciate it when the Diabelli and Goldberg Variations are all put on one track instead of being split up into 34 and 32 of them respectively. (Maybe with the liner notes indicating index points I can skip to if I particularly want to hear one specific variation.) Even more so for Brahms's Paganini Variations and Rachmaninov's Rhapsody.

(This opinion at least seems to be pretty unpopular among record companies. >_>)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2017, 03:44:25 AM
Quote from: amw on January 09, 2017, 03:35:59 AM
Unpopular opinion: I really appreciate it when the Diabelli and Goldberg Variations are all put on one track instead of being split up into 34 and 32 of them respectively. (Maybe with the liner notes indicating index points I can skip to if I particularly want to hear one specific variation.) Even more so for Brahms's Paganini Variations and Rachmaninov's Rhapsody.

(This opinion at least seems to be pretty unpopular among record companies. >_>)

A big plus one on this.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2017, 03:50:30 AM
Quote from: amw on January 09, 2017, 03:35:59 AM
Unpopular opinion: I really appreciate it when the Diabelli and Goldberg Variations are all put on one track instead of being split up into 34 and 32 of them respectively. (Maybe with the liner notes indicating index points I can skip to if I particularly want to hear one specific variation.) Even more so for Brahms's Paganini Variations and Rachmaninov's Rhapsody.

(This opinion at least seems to be pretty unpopular among record companies. >_>)

The Wergo recording (is there another? 8) ) of Hindemith's one-act marionette opera, Das Nusch-Nuschi, is a single 60-minute track.  I have not yet formed an opinion, myself, but I did read at least one comment by a listener who disapproved in harsh terms  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 04:21:02 AM
It is frequent and tolerable with shorter sets of variations but I really dislike it with longer ones. Although the only one I recall was the first CD version of Gould's 1981 reording of the GBV. It probably had index points but not many players could access them in the late 1980s/early 1990s. I realize that it is sometimes a problem with playing files/discs on a computer because they insert little breaks between tracks but with a normal CD player it has only advantages to have one track for each variation.

But I am not fond of similarly breaking up longer movements that are not variations into tracks. I have seen this done for some longer Mahler movements (e.g. on the "Royal edition" Bernstein Mahler 3).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2017, 04:24:59 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 04:21:02 AM
It is frequent and tolerable with shorter sets of variations but I really dislike it with longer ones. Although the only one I recall was the first CD version of Gould's 1981 reording of the GBV. It probably had index points but not many players could access them in the late 1980s/early 1990s. I realize that it is sometimes a problem with playing files/discs on a computer because they insert little breaks between tracks but with a normal CD player it has only advantages to have one track for each variation.

But I am not fond of similarly breaking up longer movements that are not variations into tracks. I have seen this done for some longer Mahler movements (e.g. on the "Royal edition" Bernstein Mahler 3).

The worst (in my admittedly limited experience) is the finale of the LvB Op.125 divided into 10 tracks . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 09, 2017, 04:25:30 AM
Quote from: amw on January 09, 2017, 03:35:59 AM
Unpopular opinion: I really appreciate it when the Diabelli and Goldberg Variations are all put on one track instead of being split up into 34 and 32 of them respectively. (Maybe with the liner notes indicating index points I can skip to if I particularly want to hear one specific variation.) Even more so for Brahms's Paganini Variations and Rachmaninov's Rhapsody.

(This opinion at least seems to be pretty unpopular among record companies. >_>)
You can always rip the disc as one track if you want to. There is at least some recourse on this one...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on January 09, 2017, 04:44:13 AM
True, but not if I'm listening on Spotify or Qobuz or Naxos (where there's usually an audible break between tracks too).

Oh also forgot to mention this one Chandos disc where Britten's Young Persons Guide is like 34 tracks, most of them about 20 seconds long. Bleh. (edit: ok 20 tracks. still 19 too many.) Can't rip that to a single disc image either because there's other music on the cd.

Worst of all with non variation works is the Stockhausen-Verlag which divides everything into dozens of tiny tracks, although also shoutout to Hyperion for the Simpson 9 disc, a piece in one continuous movement that gets like 17 tracks (one of them is like 12 seconds long).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 04:56:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 09, 2017, 04:24:59 AM
The worst (in my admittedly limited experience) is the finale of the LvB Op.125 divided into 10 tracks . . . .
It seems by now almost standard to split it into two, with the 2nd tracking starting at "O Freunde", or a few bars earlier. Which I find very strange. Either give some preliminary formal analysis and do 10 tracks/indices or one. But one for the purely instrumental part and one for the rest?

I am not completely consistent myself here. I guess I prefer separate tracks for pieces that are only variations (or otherwise clearly in brief segments). But I find it confusing if there are e.g. 3 movements of a sonata and because one movement has variations they divide this one into separate tracks, e.g. LvB's op.131 should have 7 tracks, not one for each movement and another 7 or so for the variation movement in the middle.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 09, 2017, 04:59:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 04:56:47 AM
It seems by now almost standard to split it into two, with the 2nd tracking starting at "O Freunde", or a few bars earlier. Which I find very strange. Either give some preliminary formal analysis and do 10 tracks/indices or one. But one for the purely instrumental part and one for the rest?

It seems pretty obvious to me that they're doing this for listeners who want to jump straight to the vocal part. It's not a musicological exercise!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 09, 2017, 05:02:44 AM
And the rest of this discussion seems turned on its head: if you're dealing with a player or service that inserts audible gaps into a recording that was created without audible gaps, don't blame the people who created the recording. Blame the people who created inferior technology incapable of gapless play.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 09, 2017, 08:19:05 AM
Quote from: amw on January 09, 2017, 04:44:13 AM
True, but not if I'm listening on Spotify or Qobuz or Naxos (where there's usually an audible break between tracks too).
Fellow streamer here. Do you happen to have favorite one-track no-break recordings of some of these works? I think there's a Rachmaninov Paganini Rhapsody with Earl Wild on Chesky that I enjoy, paired with Dohnanyi's Nursery Variations. The Naxos "People United Shall Never Be Defeated" is one track. Not so sure about Goldbergs or Diabellis.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 09, 2017, 08:23:30 AM
Quote from: amw on January 09, 2017, 03:35:59 AM
Unpopular opinion: I really appreciate it when the Diabelli and Goldberg Variations are all put on one track instead of being split up into 34 and 32 of them respectively. (Maybe with the liner notes indicating index points I can skip to if I particularly want to hear one specific variation.) Even more so for Brahms's Paganini Variations and Rachmaninov's Rhapsody.

(This opinion at least seems to be pretty unpopular among record companies. >_>)

Unpopular among me too, as I do much of my listening in the car these days and my car CD player does not let me fast forward or reverse within a track. I can only locate the start of any track.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 09, 2017, 09:01:23 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 09, 2017, 08:50:55 AM
I have my Spotify account set for gapless playing.  It works, at least for the Premium subscription.  Don't know if this feature is available for the free version.
It certainly doesn't if they play ads between the music. And yeah, gapless players, and separate tracks is how I like it for sets of small pieces or variations, but somewhat arbitrary splitting of movements is not ideal.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on January 09, 2017, 09:27:45 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 04:21:02 AM
It is frequent and tolerable with shorter sets of variations but I really dislike it with longer ones. Although the only one I recall was the first CD version of Gould's 1981 reording of the GBV. It probably had index points but not many players could access them in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

My family's first CD player, a changer from a late-80s Sony rack system, had an index display and an index-forward (but not index-back) button. None of my subsequent players have had either. Progress! I understand why index points never caught on, but they would have been a boon for classical (and maybe jazz and prog-rock) listeners.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 11:11:56 AM
I do not remember exactly but my first players might have had index display but certainly not any index manipulation, so that Gould Goldberg I had borrowed from a friend had to listened through in toto... I also recall that the Gelber Beethoven sonatas on Denon had index points within the movements, e.g. for development and recap.
As far as I remember one reason for 1-track 32-index GBV was that some players could not handle too many tracks but I am not sure
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 09, 2017, 09:19:03 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 11:11:56 AM
I do not remember exactly but my first players might have had index display but certainly not any index manipulation, so that Gould Goldberg I had borrowed from a friend had to listened through in toto... I also recall that the Gelber Beethoven sonatas on Denon had index points within the movements, e.g. for development and recap.
As far as I remember one reason for 1-track 32-index GBV was that some players could not handle too many tracks but I am not sure

The original red book definition do the CD specifies up to 99 tracks. My original 1985 pressing of Pinnock's Goldberg variations on DGG Archiv had 32 tracks. I think in those days a lot of tracks was considered a disadvantage. The ability to play long stretches of uninterrupted music was a selling point of CDs. My original Karajan alpine symphony disc had 1 hour of music and a single track.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on January 09, 2017, 09:49:39 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 09, 2017, 08:19:05 AM
Fellow streamer here. Do you happen to have favorite one-track no-break recordings of some of these works? I think there's a Rachmaninov Paganini Rhapsody with Earl Wild on Chesky that I enjoy, paired with Dohnanyi's Nursery Variations. The Naxos "People United Shall Never Be Defeated" is one track. Not so sure about Goldbergs or Diabellis.
I'm not aware of any Goldbergs or Diabellis—Charles Rosen's Diabellis I have as a single track but that's from a LP rip someone on the internet made and posted on archive.org. (I'm not aware of a CD release, but if there is one, it's probably in multiple tracks.) The Rachmaninov Concertos on Brilliant also come with a one-track Paganini Rhapsody performed by I think Mikhail Rudy, which has become my go-to version. As well, all the Brahms variation sets in the Katchen Decca recordings are in single tracks (and the Andreas Boyde set on Oehms has a compromise approach where they are divided into tracks but each one contains several variations).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 10, 2017, 12:34:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 09, 2017, 09:19:03 PM
The original red book definition do the CD specifies up to 99 tracks. My original 1985 pressing of Pinnock's Goldberg variations on DGG Archiv had 32 tracks. I think in those days a lot of tracks was considered a disadvantage. The ability to play long stretches of uninterrupted music was a selling point of CDs. My original Karajan alpine symphony disc had 1 hour of music and a single track.
But as has been pointed out this is not generally a problem with CD players because they do not interrupt when a new track starts. Maybe it was a problem with some of the early players although I do not recall such problems. It was only when we started playing CDs in computers and burning copies in the late 1990s that the problem of brief pauses between tracks showed up.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Abuelo Igor on January 10, 2017, 01:43:30 AM
I really hate it when long, multi-movement tracks are offered on a single CD track, because it means that, if you get interrupted and have to press "stop", you either have to start from the beginning or else fast forward to a point you probably don't remember anymore.

I really don't know why CD authorship should be changed to suit the taste buds of those who prefer digital, "non-physical" formats. Reading some of the opinions here, it looks like some forum members miss the days when record labels like Decca released albums like Charles Dutoit's "Daphnis and Chloe" on a single track.

As someone else said, it's not the CDs' fault, but rather the kind of imperfect digital interfaces that nobody has bothered to improve.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 10, 2017, 02:52:38 AM
It's simply a case of not bothering to start loading the beginning of the next track ahead of time.

Which undoubtedly can be done. I've got a CD player from 1992 that knows in shuffle mode how to start getting the next track ready to play. And iTunes knows how to do it. But there are a bunch of services out there where the programmers haven't ever bothered to figure it out.

And so they will sit there, happy that they've loaded the whole of the track that you're listening to right now, and do no work for the following track. Basically that gap you hear is the electronic equivalent of "Oh shit, you wanted something else after that?! Just a moment."

And it's not as if it's a problem unique to classical music. There are plenty of pop albums where one track blends into another.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 10, 2017, 06:11:11 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 10, 2017, 12:34:46 AM
But as has been pointed out this is not generally a problem with CD players because they do not interrupt when a new track starts. Maybe it was a problem with some of the early players although I do not recall such problems. It was only when we started playing CDs in computers and burning copies in the late 1990s that the problem of brief pauses between tracks showed up.

Certainly my first generation CD player did not introduce a gap between tracks when simply playing the disc. Ironically, the CD player I have now, a fancy Marantz, introduces a hiccup between tracks if I program consecutive tracks (say, if I have a Mozart symphony disc and want to program tracks 5, 6, 7, 8 to hear the second symphony on the disc). A singularly stupid design, although the unit has very fine sound. Has been a factor pushing me towards computer streaming (using the digital input of the same unit).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on January 10, 2017, 10:58:26 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 10, 2017, 02:52:38 AM
It's simply a case of not bothering to start loading the beginning of the next track ahead of time.

Which undoubtedly can be done. I've got a CD player from 1992 that knows in shuffle mode how to start getting the next track ready to play. And iTunes knows how to do it. But there are a bunch of services out there where the programmers haven't ever bothered to figure it out.

It's not a question of whether a streaming service's programmers have bothered to figure it out. It's a design flaw in the mp3 format. It's solvable for app-based playback (either via non-standard metadata or by using a different format), but for web-based playback, there's not really a reliable solution.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 10, 2017, 11:21:45 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 10, 2017, 06:31:06 AM
Why can't you just advance to track 5 and play from there on?

That works fine if I am playing to the end of the disc. But, for instance, with my old CD player if I wanted to listen to a symphony that occupied tracks 5, 6, 7, 8 of a 12 track disc I would program 5, 6, 7, 8 so that the player would stop at the end of the symphony without me having to grab the remote and mash down on the stop button before the next work started. With my new player that causes hick-ups when it continues to a subsequent track. Tolerable if the movements are distinct, but not for works with attacca movements.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 10, 2017, 11:46:52 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 10, 2017, 11:21:45 AM
That works fine if I am playing to the end of the disc. But, for instance, with my old CD player if I wanted to listen to a symphony that occupied tracks 5, 6, 7, 8 of a 12 track disc I would program 5, 6, 7, 8 so that the player would stop at the end of the symphony without me having to grab the remote and mash down on the stop button before the next work started. With my new player that causes hick-ups when it continues to a subsequent track. Tolerable if the movements are distinct, but not for works with attacca movements.

In all seriousness, if I had a CD player that did that, I would be taking it back and complaining. For me that would be completely unacceptable.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on January 10, 2017, 12:17:05 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 10, 2017, 11:46:52 AM
In all seriousness, if I had a CD player that did that, I would be taking it back and complaining. For me that would be completely unacceptable.

It did bug me, but ultimately I kept it because it has optical SPID input, so that I use it both for playing CDs and streaming FLAC files from my PC without needing a separate DAC unit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 12, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Every year I listen to Mozart's Requiem convinced that the overwhelming emotion and genius will finally connect with me. And, if the past 45 minutes is any indication, every year I get so freaking bored. I couldn't wait for it to end. Did nothing at all for me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2017, 04:55:25 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Every year I listen to Mozart's Requiem convinced that the overwhelming emotion and genius will finally connect with me. And, if the past 45 minutes is any indication, every year I get so freaking bored. I couldn't wait for it to end. Did nothing at all for me.

I stand by your (right?) not to care for the Requiem!

(I like it, I'm not overwhelmed by it, I rarely seek it out for listening.)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 12, 2017, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Every year I listen to Mozart's Requiem convinced that the overwhelming emotion and genius will finally connect with me. And, if the past 45 minutes is any indication, every year I get so freaking bored. I couldn't wait for it to end. Did nothing at all for me.
Personally I think it is a great work, incredibly powerful when I first heard it (the Mozart-Sümayr version). Unfortunately, the feeling wore off after repeated listens until I found a brilliant version by Duncan Druce. In my unpopular opinion, Druce's version is far more enjoyable than any other.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2017, 07:26:31 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Every year I listen to Mozart's Requiem convinced that the overwhelming emotion and genius will finally connect with me. And, if the past 45 minutes is any indication, every year I get so freaking bored. I couldn't wait for it to end. Did nothing at all for me.

You're certainly not alone in your sentiments regarding this requiem.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 12, 2017, 07:41:56 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on January 12, 2017, 07:35:17 PM
Lol, then I'm quite the opposite. The Requiem is the only Mozart work that has truly made me go "wow!!", he's not a composer I am aesthetically drawn to normally. Just my opinion though  :)
Have you heard the Druce version??

Honestly, if anything should wow you, it is that one. Replacing the bombastic IV-I 'amen' at the end of the 'Lacrimosa' completely and utterly ruins the pattern Mozart sets up of ending each major section with a fugue. Druce throws away Süssmayr's frivolous drivel and acknowledge's Mozart's sense of structure, modulation and orchestration throughout the work and comes up with a relevant and meaningful solution to the end of the Sequence of the Requiem:

https://www.youtube.com/v/JTDyM2tnceg

Lacrimosa begins at 19:57 but the transition into the Amen fugue begins around the 23 minute mark FYI. No other completion I have heard (which includes the fugue) actually includes such a smooth and powerful transition into the Amen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 12, 2017, 07:51:36 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on January 12, 2017, 07:35:17 PM
Lol, then I'm quite the opposite. The Requiem is the only Mozart work that has truly made me go "wow!!", he's not a composer I am aesthetically drawn to normally. Just my unpopular opinion though  :)

Mozart is like Mahler in that although his surfaces are undoubtedly attractive and full of wonderful melody, his real genius is in the way that everything is put together under that surface with an attention to the smallest details.

Incidentally, I think that Mahler may very well in the future suffer from the same trivialization as Mozart, taking the same path in miscomprehension from "nothing but a tortured Romantic" to "nothing but a sublime tunesmith."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 13, 2017, 12:03:14 AM
I share the relative indifference to the Mozart Requiem. Some movements are great (e.g. the first two, the Dies irae, Confutatis and a few more), some rather meh, probably Süssmayr's fault. I usually lose interest after the sequentia... While I think that at least the Introitus (despite very clearly inspired by Handel's Ways of Zion) is a great fusion of severe baroque style and early romantic sound with the bassett horns, more original than the pieces in the c minor mass that are more closely following baroque models and there is great stuff elsewhere, overall I prefer the c minor mass.
And I agree that those who only like the Requiem have not grasped what is great about Mozart (among other things his versatility). I think Tovey writes in one of his essays that if someone dismisses Beethoven's 4th symphony as slight, we should not listen to him when he tells us how great the 5th is because he is only impressed by the surface drama.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 14, 2017, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Every year I listen to Mozart's Requiem convinced that the overwhelming emotion and genius will finally connect with me. And, if the past 45 minutes is any indication, every year I get so freaking bored. I couldn't wait for it to end. Did nothing at all for me.
But you are going in with the wrong attitude. It can't help but fail to live up to what you think it should be. I guarantee you that if I did the same with Ligetti, the result would be the same.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on March 14, 2017, 04:04:21 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 14, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
Time to commit virtual suicide here:

I find 95% of opera cheesy (not the good kind) and cringey. As a composer, it's not a genre I'm drawn to either  :-X
Does the 95% include the works by Debussy, Bartók, Berg, Britten, Janáček, Monteverdi, Ravel and Strauss?  >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 14, 2017, 08:56:30 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 14, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
Time to commit virtual suicide here:

I find 95% of opera cheesy (not the good kind) and cringey. As a composer, it's not a genre I'm drawn to either  :-X

I suspect that is actually quite a popular opinion. Or maybe I'm just showing my own biases.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on March 14, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 14, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
Time to commit virtual suicide here:

I find 95% of opera cheesy (not the good kind) and cringey. As a composer, it's not a genre I'm drawn to either  :-X

I'm not a huge opera fan but there are several that I love dearly. I don't really follow the plot of operas even whenever I'm listening. There are a few notable exceptions: Bartók's Bluebeard's Castle, Berg's Wozzeck, Ravel's L'enfant et les sortileges, Janáček's Kata Kabanova, Martinů's Julietta, Britten's Death in Venice, and those always fascinating short operas from Schoenberg like Erwartung and Die glückliche Hand.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 14, 2017, 09:53:19 PM
I....I...I d-don't a-actually mind l-listening to Meyerbeer so much.............
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Artran on March 15, 2017, 02:35:16 AM
I - don't - care - about - lossless.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 15, 2017, 03:04:38 AM
Quote from: Artran on March 15, 2017, 02:35:16 AM
I - don't - care - about - lossless.

GASP!

Do you at least care about bitrate??
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on March 15, 2017, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: Artran on March 15, 2017, 02:35:16 AM
I - don't - care - about - lossless.
Yu dnt care abou lssles?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 15, 2017, 03:18:41 AM
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: James on March 15, 2017, 03:26:16 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 14, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
Time to commit virtual suicide here:

I find 95% of opera cheesy (not the good kind) and cringey. As a composer, it's not a genre I'm drawn to either  :-X

Fret not, most of it is in fact a total waste of time.

And btw, Mozart is a vastly over-rated bore. Ditto the sickening melodramatic cheese that is Beethoven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Artran on March 15, 2017, 03:56:18 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on March 15, 2017, 03:04:38 AM
GASP!

Do you at least care about bitrate??

Yep, everything above 192 is fine.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2017, 04:38:06 AM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on March 15, 2017, 04:54:08 AM
G'day, Karl!

Quote from: Artran on March 15, 2017, 03:56:18 AM
Yep, everything above 192 is fine.
That's like saying 'yes, I worry about getting bald - but it's fine as long as I have at least 192 hairs.'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 15, 2017, 05:01:45 AM
Quote from: Artran on March 15, 2017, 03:56:18 AM
Yep, everything above 192 is fine.

Phew. Okay, you're basically sane.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Artran on March 15, 2017, 05:12:36 AM
Welp, in all honesty, I've Audio Technica ATH-W1000 with headphone amplifier. So I cared once about sound quality. But one day I've compared one of my CD's played on my CD player with my expansive headphones and the exact same recordings on Spotify with standard headphones Sennheiser PX 100-II and the difference was so small (for me), that I've just stop cared about sound and started to listen music again.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: James on March 15, 2017, 05:21:06 AM
Quote from: Artran on March 15, 2017, 05:12:36 AMthe difference was so small, that I've just stop caring about sound and started to listen music again.

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 15, 2017, 05:46:17 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Every year I listen to Mozart's Requiem convinced that the overwhelming emotion and genius will finally connect with me. And, if the past 45 minutes is any indication, every year I get so freaking bored. I couldn't wait for it to end. Did nothing at all for me.

At best it's only half by Mozart. Some superb sections, but much of it was actually written by his pupil Süssmayr who botched several of the movements. Stay with the C minor mass (even though also a fragment) if you want Mozart's church music at its best; no one else tried to "finish" it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 15, 2017, 05:54:54 AM
Quote from: Artran on March 15, 2017, 05:12:36 AM
Welp, in all honesty, I've Audio Technica ATH-W1000 with headphone amplifier. So I cared once about sound quality. But one day I've compared one of my CD's played on my CD player with my expansive headphones and the exact same recordings on Spotify with standard headphones Sennheiser PX 100-II and the difference was so small (for me), that I've just stop cared about sound and started to listen music again.

Yeah, I think there is a point after which the differences become really small. But I also remember having a chance to compare a CD to some mp3s I bought and in that case, the CD was clearly better. So lossless might not be necessary, but you still need a half-decent format!

Also Sennheisers aren't exactly bad headphones either!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 15, 2017, 05:56:36 AM
Quote from: James on March 15, 2017, 03:26:16 AM
Fret not, most of it is in fact a total waste of time.

And btw, Mozart is a vastly over-rated bore. Ditto the sickening melodramatic cheese that is Beethoven.


"Und ging hinaus und wei-hei-hei-hei-hei-hei-nete bitterlich!"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rons_talking on March 15, 2017, 08:24:16 AM
It bothers me when composers insert vocals into a symphony. In particular, when the finale has individual vocalists pop out of nowhere and take over the orchestra. I realize that many great composers do this, and that more than a few masterworks make use of late-inning vocals, but to me, it destroys the balance and integrity of the music. It is as if the work has lost steam and requires vocals to keep the audience in their seats. From Beethoven to Mahler to Bernstein, many have done it. Obviously, some works have vocals strung throughout (Gorecki, Stravinsky SOPsalms) and that doesn't bother me; I have different ears for those works. But just as a matter of principle, I prefer symphonic music remain symphonic...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on March 15, 2017, 08:37:42 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on March 15, 2017, 08:24:16 AM
It bothers me when composers insert vocals into a symphony. In particular, when the finale has individual vocalists pop out of nowhere and take over the orchestra. I realize that many great composers do this, and that more than a few masterworks make use of late-inning vocals, but to me, it destroys the balance and integrity of the music. It is as if the work has lost steam and requires vocals to keep the audience in their seats. From Beethoven to Mahler to Bernstein, many have done it. Obviously, some works have vocals strung throughout (Gorecki, Stravinsky SOPsalms) and that doesn't bother me; I have different ears for those works. But just as a matter of principle, I prefer symphonic music remain symphonic...

What does "symphonic" mean to you then?  I don't see how the Beethoven and Mahler examples are not symphonic in any way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 15, 2017, 09:08:32 AM
This thread is hot! Let's keep it going....


The Allegro giocoso from Brahms' Op.98...no, no, no, NO, NO!!! I try year after year to accept this movement, and I just cannot. It sticks out like a sore thumb within the other surrounding, and brilliant, movements. I'm sure I've left this unpopular opinion on here before. But just spun the piece and as soon as the giocoso started I began to squirm.

Other than that. it's been a great day!   8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 15, 2017, 09:15:41 AM
I am not too fond of the 3rd movement from Brahms' 4th either (and he should have cut that triangle...) but I love the "trio" horn passage and admire the movement and its placement within the symphony for several more remote, abstract reasons.
First, it is a necessary contrast (maybe too strong, though?), second it is a brilliant fusion between a scherzo, grotesque march and classicist finale movement, third it serves both as a scherzo as well as a faux finale in the symphony and thus makes the unconventional tragic finale more effective...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2017, 09:21:31 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 15, 2017, 09:08:32 AM
This thread is hot! Let's keep it going....

The Allegro giocoso from Brahms' Op.98...no, no, no, NO, NO!!! I try year after year to accept this movement, and I just cannot. It sticks out like a sore thumb within the other surrounding, and brilliant, movements. I'm sure I've left this unpopular opinion on here before. But just spun the piece and as soon as the giocoso started I began to squirm.

Other than that. it's been a great day!   8)

For myself, it didn't help at all that this is the "Rick Wakeman Brahms" ("Cans and Brahms" is pushing the envelope for lame prog titles, IMO)  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PotashPie on March 15, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
I'm still trying to penetrate Shostakovich Symphony No. 8 in C minor. Not yet. I can't hear themes; it sounds like harmonic rambling, unfocussed. Oh, this is Girgiev, he should know as well as anybody how to play Shostakovich and convey meaning.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2017, 10:29:53 AM
Quote from: millionrainbows on March 15, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
I'm still trying to penetrate Shostakovich Symphony No. 8 in C minor. Not yet. I can't hear themes; it sounds like harmonic rambling, unfocussed. Oh, this is Girgiev, he should know as well as anybody how to play Shostakovich and convey meaning.

Let us know when you're ready to challenge the assertion that Gergiev knows best.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 15, 2017, 10:56:28 AM
Quote from: millionrainbows on March 15, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
I'm still trying to penetrate Shostakovich Symphony No. 8 in C minor. Not yet. I can't hear themes; it sounds like harmonic rambling, unfocussed. Oh, this is Girgiev, he should know as well as anybody how to play Shostakovich and convey meaning.
I know of no conductor by the name of Girgiev so I would challenge how he should know better than anyone on how to play DSCH.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on March 15, 2017, 11:18:05 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on March 15, 2017, 08:24:16 AM
It bothers me when composers insert vocals into a symphony. In particular, when the finale has individual vocalists pop out of nowhere and take over the orchestra. I realize that many great composers do this, and that more than a few masterworks make use of late-inning vocals, but to me, it destroys the balance and integrity of the music. It is as if the work has lost steam and requires vocals to keep the audience in their seats. From Beethoven to Mahler to Bernstein, many have done it. Obviously, some works have vocals strung throughout (Gorecki, Stravinsky SOPsalms) and that doesn't bother me; I have different ears for those works. But just as a matter of principle, I prefer symphonic music remain symphonic...

I wouldn't put it in quite those terms, but I think of a symphony as use of sound to create an abstract musical narrative. Introduction of a text makes it something other than a symphony, as I think of it. It seems to me that Beethoven's 9th is a cantata by another name.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on March 15, 2017, 11:27:06 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2017, 11:18:05 AM
I wouldn't put it in quite those terms, but I think of a symphony as use of sound to create an abstract musical narrative. Introduction of a text makes it something other than a symphony, as I think of it. It seems to me that Beethoven's 9th is a cantata by another name.

Can you think of any cantata using such a form?  The movement is structured as something like a rondo or a theme and variations (both common forms for a finale, even if stretched to unusual proportions here), and imitations of vocal music were already a part of Beethoven's symphonies, notably the Fifth.  It doesn't contain any stand-alone arias or parts that can function outside of the whole, and it ties up the discourse begun in the earlier movements.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: JRJoseph on March 15, 2017, 12:41:25 PM
I can't seem to get a handle on Bartok's music.  It seems so harsh most of the time.  Also, hearing Bach's organ music for more than 10 minutes gets on my nerves.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 15, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: JRJoseph on March 15, 2017, 12:41:25 PM
I can't seem to get a handle on Bartok's music.  It seems so harsh most of the time.  Also, hearing Bach's organ music for more than 10 minutes gets on my nerves.
Remove the word Bach from your sentence and that is  my feeling as well.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 15, 2017, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: Rons_talking on March 15, 2017, 08:24:16 AM
It bothers me when composers insert vocals into a symphony.

If there is not mutual consent between the symphony and the composer, the composer could be hauled in by the police, with some very serious legal charges -- and consequences -- coming their way.  Ditto if the symphony went about inserting vocals into the composer without the composer's permission.


Best regards

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on March 15, 2017, 01:58:24 PM
There have never been four such great composers simultaneously working at the top of their game as in the two decades between 1575-94.  (Byrd, Palestrina, Lassus, Victoria.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 15, 2017, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: DaveF on March 15, 2017, 01:58:24 PM
There have never been four such great composers simultaneously working at the top of their game as in the two decades between 1575-94.  (Byrd, Palestrina, Lassus, Victoria.)

I hadn't thought of it quite that way. Very interesting observation!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on March 15, 2017, 07:00:01 PM
Quote from: DaveF on March 15, 2017, 01:58:24 PM
There have never been four such great composers simultaneously working at the top of their game as in the two decades between 1575-94.  (Byrd, Palestrina, Lassus, Victoria.)

Perhaps not two decades, but
c. 1890
Brahms
Bruckner
Tchaikovsky
Sibelius
Debussy
Elgar
Verdi
Saint Saens
Mahler
Grieg

were all alive and producing music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 15, 2017, 11:48:33 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 15, 2017, 07:00:01 PM
Perhaps not two decades, but
c. 1890
Brahms
Bruckner
Tchaikovsky
Sibelius
Debussy
Elgar
Verdi
Saint Saens
Mahler
Grieg

were all alive and producing music.

The Chopin/Schumann/Liszt/Mendelssohn generation weren't too shabby either.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 15, 2017, 11:50:06 PM
1720-40: JS Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, F. Couperin, Telemann, Zelenka, Rameau, D. Scarlatti...
1820-40 Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz, Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on March 16, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 15, 2017, 11:50:06 PM
1820-40 Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz, Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt....
Beethoven and Schubert were dead most of that time, and Chopin, Schumann and Liszt were kids in 1820. Dave was talking about a 20 y period during which a number of great composers were continuously in excellent form.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 16, 2017, 04:02:38 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 15, 2017, 07:00:01 PM
Perhaps not two decades, but
c. 1890
Brahms
Bruckner
Tchaikovsky
Sibelius
Debussy
Elgar
Verdi
Saint Saens
Mahler
Grieg

were all alive and producing music.
2016 was also quite a good year. 2017 hopefully will be too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 16, 2017, 04:43:38 AM
o.k., but still 1830-50 would qualify for Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann (I know that some died a few years before the end of the decade)

And any two subsequent decades 1860-1950 would also work fine, I guess.

e.g. 1860-1880: Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Bruckner...
1870-90: Verdi, Brahms, Bruckner, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Franck...
etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 16, 2017, 08:35:07 AM
Quote from: DaveF on March 15, 2017, 01:58:24 PM
There have never been four such great composers simultaneously working at the top of their game as in the two decades between 1575-94.  (Byrd, Palestrina, Lassus, Victoria.)

Don't know whether this is unpopular, but it's certainly false, as several previous posters have peremptorily showed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on March 16, 2017, 11:49:22 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2017, 08:35:07 AM
Don't know whether this is unpopular, but it's certainly false, as several previous posters have peremptorily showed.
These days it's popular to be false.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 16, 2017, 12:00:05 PM
Quote from: North Star on March 16, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
Beethoven and Schubert were dead most of that time, and Chopin, Schumann and Liszt were kids in 1820. Ken was talking about a 20 y period during which a number of great composers were continuously in excellent form.
All true, but it's DaveF's observation, I cannot take credit for it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: jochanaan on March 16, 2017, 12:03:42 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 15, 2017, 06:45:08 PM

Maybe I'm the complete opposite of you, I don't know but Bartok's music isn't harsh enough most of the time for me (but his quartets are quite consistently heavy)...
Miraculous Mandarin?  1st Piano Concerto?  Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on March 16, 2017, 12:14:52 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 15, 2017, 07:05:04 PM
While I agree with you, you're forgetting about literally every decade in the 20th century  ;)

Well, no, I'm not - I'm as well acquainted with 20th-century music as with 16th-century.  Heck, nearly half of it was composed during my lifetime :o  If Bach, Haydn, Beethoven and Wagner had all been active at the same time, I might change my mind.  But in the end my opinion remains an opinion, and it remains unpopular - which is why it's in this thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 16, 2017, 01:21:49 PM
Having an unpopular opinion is very popular all of a sudden.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 16, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
Quote from: DaveF on March 16, 2017, 12:14:52 PM
If Bach, Haydn, Beethoven and Wagner had all been active at the same time, I might change my mind.  But in the end my opinion remains an opinion, and it remains unpopular - which is why it's in this thread.

You like those composers who were to their contemporaries the most avant-garde, cutting edge and 'experimental' composers of their time.  If you were alive then, the likelihood you would have preferred the older masters of former yester-years is high.

OMG, you're average!  Average opinions, as a rule, are not unpopular opinions.  Just sayin'

From any era of music, there are great riches to be had from other than "The Usual Suspects.


Best regards.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 16, 2017, 01:45:42 PM
Quote from: DaveF on March 16, 2017, 12:14:52 PM
Well, no, I'm not - I'm as well acquainted with 20th-century music as with 16th-century.  Heck, nearly half of it was composed during my lifetime :o  If Bach, Haydn, Beethoven and Wagner had all been active at the same time, I might change my mind.  But in the end my opinion remains an opinion, and it remains unpopular - which is why it's in this thread.
Hear hear! And pre baroque music is often overlooked, especially when compared with the immensely popular composers of the 20th century
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on March 16, 2017, 08:11:02 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 16, 2017, 04:02:38 AM
2016 was also quite a good year. 2017 hopefully will be too.

I would like to think that you, Fabulous alien and Karl H. have a lot more than two decades to look forward to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 17, 2017, 04:53:47 AM
Thank you, friend!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 17, 2017, 05:02:48 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 16, 2017, 08:11:02 PM
I would like to think that you, Fabulous alien and Karl H. have a lot more than two decades to look forward to.

(I shall trust this is not an unpopular opinion)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 17, 2017, 04:18:10 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 16, 2017, 08:11:02 PM
I would like to think that you, Fabulous alien and Karl H. have a lot more than two decades to look forward to.

I certainly hope it is a popular opinion to look forward to hearing new works from TFA and Dr. H in the years to come. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 17, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
I like Ravel's Bolero.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 18, 2017, 06:40:12 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 17, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
I like Ravel's Bolero.

It IS his best piece.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
Quote from: Ken B on March 18, 2017, 06:40:12 AM
It IS his best piece.

::)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2017, 06:45:27 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 17, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
I like Ravel's Bolero.

I like Schnittke's spoof on Ravel's Bolero from his film work, The Master and Margarita.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2017, 01:09:38 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 17, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
I like Ravel's Bolero.

So do I!

Quote from: Ken B on March 18, 2017, 06:40:12 AM
It IS his best piece.

As thread duty, very well played, sir!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on March 18, 2017, 01:32:51 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2017, 01:09:38 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 17, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
I like Ravel's Bolero.
So do I!
+1, although I do like most of Ravel's mature works more.


Quote from: Mirror Image on March 18, 2017, 06:45:27 AM
I like Schnittke's spoof on Ravel's Bolero from his film work, The Master and Margarita.
There's also the Fumio Hayasaka imitation in Kurosawa's Rashomon.
https://www.youtube.com/v/GA7c8uqfTns
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2017, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 17, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
I like Ravel's Bolero.

So perhaps not as unpopular as I initially thought.  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 18, 2017, 03:00:16 PM
Eh, my favourite Ravel piece is Frontispice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 18, 2017, 07:16:54 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 18, 2017, 03:00:16 PM
Eh, my favourite Ravel piece is Frontispice.

Is Frontispice next to the Allspice and the Poivre Aromatique in the condiments department? ;-)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 05:21:21 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 17, 2017, 04:43:59 PM
For me as a composer, with opera there are only two things I am drawn to: intense emotional and psychological darkness...and absurdity

Is there anything more absurd than this Tristan guy, who has just been stabbed to death, singing for almost an entire act (an act of Wagnerian length, mind you)?  ;D ;D ;D

Also, take a look here, you might find something suitable to your taste.  :)

The 10 Silliest Operas...that you really need to hear (http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/351292,the-10-silliest-operas-that-you-really-need-to-hear.aspx)

I, for one, love opera no matter how silly the libretto, which I rarely follow anyway while listening. My top five: Carmen, Der Freischuetz, Il barbiere di Siviglia, Le nozze di Figaro., La sonnambula.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2017, 05:26:37 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 05:21:21 AM
Is there anything more absurd than this Tristan guy, who has just been stabbed to death, singing for almost an entire act (an act of Wagnerian length, mind you)?  ;D ;D ;D

Also, take a look here, you might find something suitable to your taste.  :)

The 10 Silliest Operas...that you really need to hear (http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/351292,the-10-silliest-operas-that-you-really-need-to-hear.aspx)

Live into the silly!  8)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on March 19, 2017, 06:04:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 05:21:21 AM

The 10 Silliest Operas...that you really need to hear (http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/351292,the-10-silliest-operas-that-you-really-need-to-hear.aspx)

The most successful operas have good librettos.  Da Ponte was a key asset in Mozart operatic successes as was Boito to Verdi's.  I think the limited successes of Dvorak lyric works come from inferior librettos.
In the 10 silliest list, I have bought the recording of two: Dinorah and La Wally.  Dinorah libretto is nonexistent.  I would not say the same of La Wally, which has a typical romantic plot and the necessary tragic ending.  Their music is good, and both works have some very famous arias:
Ombre legere qui suit mes pas in Dinorah and Ne mai dunque avro pace and Ebben...Ne andro lontana in La Wally.  These last two arias are some of the finest examples of the Verrismo style.

Added: Jean-Jacques Beinnex movie Diva plot and soundtrack revolve around a pirat recording of La Wally Ne mai dunque avro pace aria.  This is why it is one of my very favorite french movies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 19, 2017, 06:16:38 AM
Tristan's wound was originally not so bad; he is feverish at the beginning of Act III but as he was fit enough to survive the sea passage from King Marke's castle in Cornwall back to his own castle in Brittany.
He is a really tough guy because last time he also survived the poisoned? wound from Morold long enough to get incognito to Isolde and be cured...

Just think of what Bruce Willis could do with a lot of wounds in Die hard! Tristan dies much harder... until he wants to.

I have not heard any of the operas listed as "10 silliest"...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 06:32:51 AM
Quote from: Spineur on March 19, 2017, 06:04:30 AM
The most successful operas have good librettos.

Honestly I have never understood this whole good librettos / bad librettos thing. A libretto is not meant for being read independently, but for listening to the music it inspired. If the music is good, then I don't care a fig for the libretto. For instance, Il viaggio a Reims has basically no plot at all, yet it contains some of the most gloriously beautiful music ever penned; Il trovatore has a notoriously bad libretto yet it is one of the most performed and acclaimed operas ever.

Bottom line, it's either music first, or words first. I am firmly in the former camp.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on March 19, 2017, 06:43:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 06:32:51 AM
Honestly I have never understood this whole good librettos / bad librettos thing.
In movies the script is of the highest importance.  People say "the story, the story, the story".  Why would it be any different for operas ?  They are not meant to be listened to on CDs but seen as a total art form, involving text, music, acting and dancing.  This is why some of the stagging managers can and have ruinned a number of performances of masterpieces of the repertoire.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 19, 2017, 06:48:00 AM
I don't think it is so simple. That is both Spineur and Florestan are proved wrong by the actual history of opera. ;)
It is not at all easy to tell how bad a libretto can be for the opera to fail.
But there are clearly cases of operas that never really got a foot into the repertoire, like Schubert's and probably also Schumann's Genoveva or vanished very quickly (like Weber's Euryanthe and Oberon), despite some good to glorious music.

On the other hand, there are clearly operas where people keep telling everyone that the libretti are crap and that they are highly problematic in this and such respects but they have been in the repertoire since the 19th century or earlier, e.g. Zauberflöte (but here I think it is mostly the narrowmindedness of some critics, the greatest German poet of all times, Goethe, found it worthwhile to sketch a sequel for Zauberflöte, although it remained a fragment) or Fidelio or Trovatore or Geierwally or whatever.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: Spineur on March 19, 2017, 06:43:27 AM
In movies the script is of the highest importance.  People say "the story, the story, the story".  Why would it be any different for operas ?

Because operas are not movies.  ;D

Quote
They are not meant to be listened to on CDs but seen as a total art form, involving text, music, acting and dancing.

That's the Wagnerian point of view. I doubt Handel, Rossini or Meyerbeer would have subscribed to it, and they were hugely succesful and popular in their time. I always beware of judging the past with the criteria of the present time.  :)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 07:28:06 AM
Quote from: Igor Stravinsky, The Poetics of Music, Harvard University Press, 1947, pp 59-61

I am not without motive in provoking a quarrel with
the notorious Synthesis of the Arts. I do not merely
condemn it for its lack of tradition, its nouveau rlche
smugness. What makes its case much worse is the fact
that the application of its theories has inflicted a terrible
blow upon music itself. In every period of spiritual
anarchy wherein man, having lost his feeling and taste
for ontology, takes fright at himself and at his destiny,
there always appears one of these gnosticisms which
serve as a religion for those who no longer have a religion,
just as in periods of international crises an army
of soothsayers, fakirs, and clairvoyants monopolize
journalistic publicity. We can speak of these things all
the more freely in view of the fact that the halcyon
days of Wagnerism are past and that the distance
which separates us from them permits us to set matters
straight again. Sound minds, moreover, never believed
in the paradise of the Synthesis of the Arts and have always
recognized its enchantments at their true worth.
I have said that I never saw any necessity for music
to adopt such a dramatic system. I shall add something
more: I hold that this system, far from having
raised the level of musical culture, has never ceased to
undermine it and finally to debase it in the most paradoxical
fashion. In the past one went to the opera for
the diversion offered by facile musical works. Later
on one returned to it in order to yawn at dramas in
which music, arbitrarily paralyzed by constraints for-
eign to its own laws, could not help tiring out the most
attentive audience in spite of the great talent displayed
by Wagner.


So, from music shamelessly considered as a purely
sensual delight, we passed without transition to the
murky inanities of the Art-Religion, with its heroic
hardware, its arsenal of warrior-mysticism and its vocabulary
seasoned with an adulterated religiosity. So
that as soon as music ceased to be scorned, it was only
to find itself smothered under literary flowers. It succeeded
in getting a hearing from the cultured public
thanks only to a misunderstanding which tended to
turn drama into a hodgepodge of symbols, and music
itself into an object of philosophical speculation. That
is how the speculative spirit came to lose its course and
how it came to betray music while ostensibly trying to
serve it the better.

[...]

Think how subtle and clinging the poison of the
music drama was to have insinuated itself even into
the veins of the colossus Verdi.

How can we help regretting that this master of the
traditional opera, at the end of a long life studded with
so many authentic masterpieces, climaxed his career
with Falstaff which, if it is not Wagner's best work, is
not Verdi's best opera either?

I know that I am going counter to the general opinion
that sees Verdi's best work in the deterioration of
the genius that gave us Rigoletto, II Trovatore, Aida,
and La Traviata. I know I am defending precisely
what the elite of the recent past belittled in the works
of this great composer. I regret having to say so;
but I maintain that there is more substance and true
invention in the aria La donna e mobile, for example,
in which this elite saw nothing but deplorable
facility, than in the rhetoric and vociferations of the
Ring
.

The whole thing here: https://monoskop.org/images/6/64/Stravinsky_Igor_Poetics_of_Music_in_the_Form_of_Six_Lessons.pdf (https://monoskop.org/images/6/64/Stravinsky_Igor_Poetics_of_Music_in_the_Form_of_Six_Lessons.pdf)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 19, 2017, 07:48:41 AM
But this is pure polemics. About as helpful as Wolf on Brahms, Hanslick on Bruckner or Adorno on Stravinsky...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 19, 2017, 07:51:34 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 07:28:06 AM
The whole thing here: https://monoskop.org/images/6/64/Stravinsky_Igor_Poetics_of_Music_in_the_Form_of_Six_Lessons.pdf (https://monoskop.org/images/6/64/Stravinsky_Igor_Poetics_of_Music_in_the_Form_of_Six_Lessons.pdf)

That was f#cking awesome.

I feel like I need a cigarette now.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 07:55:50 AM
Quote from: Ken B on March 19, 2017, 07:51:34 AM
That was f#cking awesome.

Ain't it?  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 08:04:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 19, 2017, 07:48:41 AM
But this is pure polemics. About as helpful as Wolf on Brahms, Hanslick on Bruckner or Adorno on Stravinsky...

Not quite. His points are more profound than meets the eye.

Consider also this:

Quote from: Igor Stravinsky
The principle of the endless melody [...] is the perpetual becoming of a music that never had any reason for starting, any more than it has any reason for ending.

Harsh but true.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on March 19, 2017, 05:18:28 PM
QuoteI regret having to say so;
but I maintain that there is more substance and true
invention in the aria La donna e mobile, for example,
in which this elite saw nothing but deplorable
facility, than in the rhetoric and vociferations of the
Ring.
He was perhaps correct to say "middle Verdi" is better than the Ring, but he is wrong to say "middle Verdi" is better than "late Verdi".  I happen to think Otello and Falstaff are among the best operas ever.  In part because of the libretti by Boito/Shakespeare, which gave Verdi characters and situations​ to write about , in part because Verdi in a way took Wagner's ideas and distilled them into something closer to Italianate theater.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 19, 2017, 06:57:08 PM
Operas pretty much are movies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on March 19, 2017, 07:46:34 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on March 19, 2017, 06:57:08 PM
Operas pretty much are movies.
Indeed, let say it is one of the genre.  Between all the operas that have been filmed in outdoors and the musical comedies, there are no difference.  More generally there are no such barriers.  People have turned so many plays into movies and movies into plays.
And a good script makes a better movie and a good libretto a better opera.  It is not the whole story obviously and Jo is right in saying that a good libretto in the 18th century may no longer be considered so today.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on March 19, 2017, 07:52:12 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on March 19, 2017, 06:57:08 PM
Operas pretty much are movies.

Well, if this is the case, then Bartók's Bluebeard's Castle is one of the finest pieces of cinema I've ever seen! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on March 19, 2017, 08:07:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 19, 2017, 07:52:12 PM
Well, if this is the case, then Bartók's Bluebeard's Castle is one of the finest pieces of cinema I've ever seen! :)
I have seen one filmed version.  I'll try to dig it out for you !!  In my youth, I was also quite found of it.  It has slipped a little, but who knows, if I see a good staged version it may make a big comeback. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on March 19, 2017, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: Spineur on March 19, 2017, 08:07:21 PM
I have seen one filmed version.  I'll try to dig it out for you !!  In my youth, I was also quite found of it.  It has slipped a little, but who knows, if I see a good staged version it may make a big comeback.

Well, I was just kidding around of course. I don't really care anything about watching opera films, but this one would be an exception and even then I would rather see it performed live. The music, though, is what really matters to me and the libretto is a deeply fascinating one for me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on March 19, 2017, 08:55:26 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 19, 2017, 08:52:08 PM
Bluebeard is more of a twisted psychological horror than a drama in my head, so most of the (low budget?) film versions are unsatisfactory. The version Esa-Pekka done a few years back was far more in the original intentions; to focus on the character's minds and feelings during this horrific revealing of events

Yep, psychological horror at its' best! Love, love, love this opera, but you already knew this. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 20, 2017, 01:01:30 AM
Instrumental music is automatically way more interesting with electronics added.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 20, 2017, 01:09:54 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 20, 2017, 01:04:09 AM
I'm starting to agree on that, some of the best contemporary music I've heard includes either an ensemble, orchestra or a solo instrument backed by/or alongside electronics
I guess soon this opinion won't be unpopular :(
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2017, 03:11:41 AM
Quote from: jessop on March 20, 2017, 01:01:30 AM
Instrumental music is automatically way more interesting with electronics added.

Automatically? No way. It's like anything, it depends on whether the person understands what they're doing.

Every success story in the arts is followed by a bunch of people slavishly imitating the obvious part of the technique and not understanding why they don't get the same quality of result. After Toy Story you get a glut of computer-animated movies because they think computer animation was the important bit of Toy Story. I'm quite sure there are plenty of people who've whacked electronics onto music with no insight as how to make it work well. Lord knows there are plenty of pop songs that have been "remixed" with a tin ear, I don't see why instrumental music would be any different.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2017, 03:22:08 AM
To stick with the classical world, I'm fairly sure that this:

https://www.youtube.com/v/nNwiUgkJXpw

was not made more interesting when it was turned into this:

https://www.youtube.com/v/O3xPfyg3bXE
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2017, 03:22:47 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 20, 2017, 03:21:59 AM
Of course context is everything.

Of course, allowing for context wasn't the claim that was made.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 20, 2017, 03:36:03 AM
Revising my opinion, thanks to orfeo's insightful advice:

There is a greater amount of possibilities when a composer is combining the more traditional and purely acoustic instruments with electronics (live or an accompanying electroacoustic track) and I tend to find that these compositions have the potential of being more interesting to me than compositions for the same instrument or ensemble without the electronic element. For example: I prefer Anthèmes II to Anthèmes I.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2017, 04:12:43 AM
Quote from: jessop on March 20, 2017, 03:36:03 AM
Revising my opinion, thanks to orfeo's insightful advice:

There is a greater amount of possibilities when a composer is combining the more traditional and purely acoustic instruments with electronics (live or an accompanying electroacoustic track) and I tend to find that these compositions have the potential of being more interesting to me than compositions for the same instrument or ensemble without the electronic element. For example: I prefer Anthèmes II to Anthèmes I.

I can live with that. A broader palette offers more possibilities.

I don't have much experience of it with instrumental music. I do know that some of the things I've enjoyed most in the "pop" world have involved intelligent combination of acoustic, electric and electronic sounds.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on March 20, 2017, 04:26:15 AM
Quote from: jessop on March 20, 2017, 03:36:03 AM
Revising my opinion, thanks to orfeo's insightful advice:

There is a greater amount of possibilities when a composer is combining the more traditional and purely acoustic instruments with electronics (live or an accompanying electroacoustic track) and I tend to find that these compositions have the potential of being more interesting to me than compositions for the same instrument or ensemble without the electronic element. For example: I prefer Anthèmes II to Anthèmes I.
It shouldn't be an unpopular opinion but an obvious fact that there are more possibilities with a greater variety of instruments at your disposal.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2017, 04:41:42 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 19, 2017, 05:18:28 PM
He was perhaps correct to say "middle Verdi" is better than the Ring, but he is wrong to say "middle Verdi" is better than "late Verdi".  I happen to think Otello and Falstaff are among the best operas ever.  In part because of the libretti by Boito/Shakespeare, which gave Verdi characters and situations​ to write about , in part because Verdi in a way took Wagner's ideas and distilled them into something closer to Italianate theater.

Yes.

And underscoring my point that, if Wagner had only submitted to an editor, he could have been one of the greats  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 20, 2017, 04:42:24 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 20, 2017, 04:26:15 AM
there are more possibilities with a greater variety of instruments at your disposal.

I beg to differ. The number or variety of instruments is of no importance to the "interesting-ness" of music. Chopin was severely limited in this respect and (some of) Beethoven's best works involve at most three instruments.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2017, 04:44:00 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 20, 2017, 04:42:24 AM
I beg to differ. The number or variety of instruments is of no importance to the "interesting-ness" of music. Chopin was severely limited in this respect and (some of) Beethoven's best works involve at most three instruments.

Yet, you have not really gainsaid Karlo's statement (There are more possibilities with a greater variety of instruments at your disposal.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 20, 2017, 04:47:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 20, 2017, 04:44:00 AM
Yet, you have not really gainsaid Karlo's statement (There are more possibilities with a greater variety of instruments at your disposal.)

My intention was actually to gainsay jessop's statement (Instrumental music is automatically way more interesting with electronics added.) but I quoted the wrong post.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2017, 04:48:38 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 20, 2017, 04:47:47 AM
My intention was actually to gainsay jessop's statement (Instrumental music is automatically way more interesting with electronics added.) but I quoted the wrong post.

Ah.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on March 20, 2017, 04:56:43 AM
I have no time to read the longer Stravinsky essays. But it is obvious polemics against Wagner, the Wagnerians (and more generally against "German" high/late romanticism).
Which is perfectly fine for a composer who to a large extend stylistically defined himself in reaction against this very tradition. But it is not at all helpful for recognition or analysis of e.g. Wagner.
And if one has something to say against "endless [better "infinite"] melody" one should not criticize the term but show where and why it is a problem in Wagner that melodies have no beginning or end. (Obviously many musicians and listeners don't think so and even more obvious the very term "unendliche Melodie" is hyperbolic because in fact Wagner's pieces do begin and end somewhere ;)  it's not that the music just begins and stops.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: GioCar on March 20, 2017, 05:46:29 AM
^^^ I agree, that series of lectures actually says much more on Stravinsky's aesthetics and music than on Wagner's, Verdi's, Gounod's and of the others mentioned there.
They remind me his well-know quote on Vivaldi, that one taken from his conversations with Craft.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 20, 2017, 07:19:32 AM
Quote from: jessop on March 20, 2017, 01:01:30 AM
Instrumental music is automatically way more interesting with electronics added.
Wendy Carlos is laughing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 20, 2017, 07:21:40 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 20, 2017, 04:26:15 AM
It shouldn't be an unpopular opinion but an obvious fact that there are more possibilities with a greater variety of instruments at your disposal.
Hence the continuing conundrum, why isn't the whoopee cushion used more?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 20, 2017, 08:33:54 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 20, 2017, 04:56:43 AM
And if one has something to say against "endless [better "infinite"] melody" one should not criticize the term but show where and why it is a problem in Wagner that melodies have no beginning or end. (Obviously many musicians and listeners don't think so and even more obvious the very term "unendliche Melodie" is hyperbolic because in fact Wagner's pieces do begin and end somewhere ;)  it's not that the music just begins and stops.)

"The trouble with Wagner is he talks all the time. No one talks all the time." ~ Clara Schumann
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on March 20, 2017, 08:45:01 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 20, 2017, 08:33:54 PM
"The trouble with Wagner is he talks all the time. No one talks all the time." ~ Clara Schumann

:P Yeah, Wagner seemed like he could ramble on endlessly without ever considering the fact that whoever he's talking to has already fallen asleep. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 21, 2017, 01:38:35 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 18, 2017, 01:16:37 PM
I actually do to, I barely listen to it but there is something mesmerizing about that piece. In tradition with it's folklore too, it
d be a fun piece to...umm....have sex to..... :P

The movie "10" beat you to it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 21, 2017, 01:40:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 20, 2017, 08:45:01 PM
:P Yeah, Wagner seemed like he could ramble on endlessly without ever considering the fact that whoever he's talking to has already fallen asleep. :)

When Wagner met Schumann, he complained that he couldn't have a conversation with a man who never opened his mouth. Schumann complained that he couldn't get in a word edgewise.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 21, 2017, 01:43:16 PM
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 07:28:06 AM
The whole thing here:

Stravinsky knew and appreciated Wagner in his Russian youth, while as an old man his favorite Verdi operas were Rigoletto and the very late Falstaff.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 21, 2017, 01:45:05 PM
Quote from: Florestan on March 20, 2017, 04:42:24 AM
I beg to differ. The number or variety of instruments is of no importance to the "interesting-ness" of music. Chopin was severely limited in this respect and (some of) Beethoven's best works involve at most three instruments.

Some of Beethoven's best piano sonatas involve only one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 21, 2017, 01:48:40 PM
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2017, 05:21:21 AM
Is there anything more absurd than this Tristan guy, who has just been stabbed to death, singing for almost an entire act (an act of Wagnerian length, mind you)?  ;D ;D ;D

Also, take a look here, you might find something suitable to your taste.  :)

The 10 Silliest Operas...that you really need to hear (http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/351292,the-10-silliest-operas-that-you-really-need-to-hear.aspx)

I, for one, love opera no matter how silly the libretto, which I rarely follow anyway while listening. My top five: Carmen, Der Freischuetz, Il barbiere di Siviglia, Le nozze di Figaro., La sonnambula.

Au contraire, I see nothing in the least silly in the beautifully constructed libretto to Figaro. I'll give you Freischuetz.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 21, 2017, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: Ken B on March 18, 2017, 06:40:12 AM
It IS his best piece.

Except for all the others as good or even better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 21, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 20, 2017, 08:45:01 PM
:P Yeah, Wagner seemed like he could ramble on endlessly without ever considering the fact that whoever he's talking to has already fallen asleep. :)

Clara's quip was an analogy criticizing Wagner's music for its 'endless melody' (music with little or no aspiration) i.e an endless stream of music without the 'punctuation' of comma, period, or any breathing spaces.  In more contemporary parlance, a "Non-breather," lol.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on March 21, 2017, 08:53:55 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 21, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
Clara's quip was an analogy criticizing Wagner's music for its 'endless melody' (music with little or no aspiration) i.e and endless stream of music without the 'punctuation' of comma, period, or any breathing spaces.  In more contemporary parlance, a "Non-breather," lol.
In a way that is what I find appealing in his music: you think you just reached a climax, but he takes you to one even higher, and yet there is an even higher one after that.  The result: you just got drained emotionally, to the point that you cant listen to anything else for quite a while.  This is impressive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 21, 2017, 09:15:59 PM
Quote from: Spineur on March 21, 2017, 08:53:55 PM
In a way that is what I find appealing in his music: you think you just reached a climax, but he takes you to one even higher, and yet there is an even higher one after that.  The result: you just got drained emotionally, to the point that you cant listen to anything else for quite a while.  This is impressive.

I've given Wagner many a try over many a decade, and it is to be hoped those were moments when my 'ears and mind were open.'  It is just not, for many reasons, to my taste.  I can well believe what you said, i.e. Tristan und Isoulde has got to be one hell of a complete wringer if you sit through the whole musico-dramatic piece in a theater!  With my personal objections to Wagner, that ain't gonna happen.

The two operas I know do drain me to the point where afterwards I don't want to hear anything else, or even talk about it, are Poulenc's Dialogues des Carmélites and Berg's Lulu.

Different strokes for different folks....


Best regards.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2017, 03:55:42 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 21, 2017, 09:15:59 PM
I've given Wagner many a try over many a decade, and it is to be hoped those were moments when my 'ears and mind were open.'  It is just not, for many reasons, to my taste.  I can well believe what you said, i.e. Tristan und Isoulde has got to be one hell of a complete wringer if you sit through the whole musico-dramatic piece in a theater!  With my personal objections to Wagner, that ain't gonna happen.

I greatly enjoyed listening to Parsifal (should give it a second go in its entirety, someday).

But:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on March 22, 2017, 04:38:37 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 21, 2017, 01:48:40 PM
Au contraire, I see nothing in the least silly in the beautifully constructed libretto to Figaro.

I was careless in formulation. I find nothing silly in Figaro, either.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 22, 2017, 06:19:46 AM
Robert DeNiro is a mediocre actor. He's been coasting for decades on a few good early performances.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 22, 2017, 11:47:20 PM
Quote from: Ken B on March 20, 2017, 07:21:40 AM
Hence the continuing conundrum, why isn't the whoopee cushion used more?

Because it is stuck on someone's ass, and they enormously over-value their worth as a performer, demanding, too, Glenn Gould-like, that their favorite rocking chair is the only one they will perform in, adding shipping and insurance costs to their already vastly over-rated fee.

Hey, some artists are so greedy/selfish you end up never hearing about them ;-)


Best regards
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 23, 2017, 05:00:35 AM
Quote from: Ken B on March 22, 2017, 06:19:46 AM
Robert DeNiro is a mediocre actor. He's been coasting for decades on a few good early performances.

I think DeNiro should be defined by his best work, not his most recent. However, his role choices of the past 20 years have been disappointing. I find Heat to be the last great role he was in. Rumor has it that he, and I believe Pacino, are in talks to join Scorsese for a film.

DeNiro's best performance? King of Comedy, easily. He plays stalker-crazy quite well.

I've got one...

James Cameron is a mediocre filmmaker. He's been coasting for decades on a few good early films.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2017, 05:04:08 AM
Wait—did you mean, James Cameron should be defined by his best work, not his most recent?   0:)    :laugh:    ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2017, 05:04:57 AM
Disclaimer:  I probably have not seen any really recent work of either De Niro's nor Cameron's.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 23, 2017, 05:08:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2017, 05:04:08 AM
Wait—did you mean, James Cameron should be defined by his best work, not his most recent?   0:)    :laugh:    ;)

I believe that for every artist truthfully. But I liked Ken's quote, so I wanted to play on it.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2017, 05:21:45 AM
Very good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on March 23, 2017, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 23, 2017, 05:00:35 AMDeNiro's best performance? King of Comedy, easily. He plays stalker-crazy quite well.

A brilliant film. Sandra Bernhard and Jerry Lewis turn in fine performances as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 23, 2017, 08:05:26 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 20, 2017, 04:56:43 AM
I have no time to read the longer Stravinsky essays. But it is obvious polemics against Wagner, the Wagnerians (and more generally against "German" high/late romanticism).

How Tragic.

How tragic, too that you have no time to read. 

"The Poetics of Music" is certainly a personal view, and as such will have personal preferences and dislikes, which I'm sure any adult reader would easily see through while not getting their knickers in a twist if Stravinsky did say something less than favorable about a composer of whom the reader is fond.  It is but a slim volume, taking little time to read.  What is said therein is worth thinking about, and the composer shows he had quite a range of knowledge of the rep. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 23, 2017, 08:17:04 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2017, 05:04:08 AM
Wait—did you mean, James Cameron should be defined by his best work, not his most recent?   0:)    :laugh:    ;)

So, does that boil down to the flora as conceived and animated in his Avatar?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2017, 05:08:55 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 23, 2017, 08:17:04 PM
So, does that boil down to the flora as conceived and animated in his Avatar?

I've not seen that one, and . . . I am disinclined to  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on March 24, 2017, 05:23:26 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 23, 2017, 05:00:35 AM

I've got one...

James Cameron is a mediocre filmmaker. He's been coasting for decades on a few good early films.

I struggle to understand how this could count as an unpopular opinion!  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2017, 05:23:59 AM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on April 25, 2017, 08:21:20 AM
The best scherzo in a Dvorak symphony is No. 4's.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 25, 2017, 08:21:20 AM
The best scherzo in a Dvorak symphony is No. 4's.

That's almost true but...more correctly, it's tied with the Eighth's Scherzo for the number one slot, followed by:

7, 9, 6, 5, 1, 2



Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 25, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
That's almost true but...more correctly, it's tied with the Eighth's Scherzo for the number one slot, followed by:

7, 9, 6, 5, 1, 2



Sarge

No 3?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2017, 02:30:07 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 25, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
No 3?

I think we're safe not ranking the scherzo of no.3.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 25, 2017, 06:58:40 PM
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra is really not quite up to the balance and blend and unified strength of many other world class orchestras based on recordings I've heard......of course they can play with great expression but many times the expression is slightly different for each player.  Accented notes are accented at different times, simultaneous entrances aren't often simultaneous, imbalance between sections often obscure the texture of a composition rather than bring it out, the top registers of the violins rarely hold together as an ensemble and sound rather weak, fast string passages in one bow are often weak and they tend to play 'underneath' the rest of the orchestra whenever there are fast runs..............

Am I the only one who thinks that this orchestra isn't quite as good as people say they are?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on April 25, 2017, 09:38:29 PM
Quote from: jessop on April 25, 2017, 06:58:40 PM
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra is really not quite up to the balance and blend and unified strength of many other world class orchestras based on recordings I've heard......of course they can play with great expression but many times the expression is slightly different for each player.  Accented notes are accented at different times, simultaneous entrances aren't often simultaneous, imbalance between sections often obscure the texture of a composition rather than bring it out, the top registers of the violins rarely hold together as an ensemble and sound rather weak, fast string passages in one bow are often weak and they tend to play 'underneath' the rest of the orchestra whenever there are fast runs..............

Am I the only one who thinks that this orchestra isn't quite as good as people say they are?

Depends on what you mean by good. I wouldn't say they are the very best in technical mastery and virtuosity. But they maintain their own distinct style in an age where orchestras have become "international."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 26, 2017, 04:54:25 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2017, 09:38:29 PM
Depends on what you mean by good. I wouldn't say they are the very best in technical mastery and virtuosity. But they maintain their own distinct style in an age where orchestras have become "international."

Wellll........personally their style isn't really for me in the first place :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 05:25:56 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on April 25, 2017, 02:30:07 PM
I think we're safe not ranking the scherzo of no.3.

;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2017, 05:35:40 AM
As a matter of mere history, I must have listened to it.  But do i remember it?  No.  So I needed to have a look to appreciate the jest.

Which I do  0:)  8)  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2017, 05:51:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
That's almost true but...more correctly, it's tied with the Eighth's Scherzo for the number one slot [....]

The Allegretto grazioso of the Op.88 is utterly exquisite.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 05:55:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 26, 2017, 05:51:48 AM
The Allegretto grazioso of the Op.88 is utterly exquisite.

It is, heartbreakingly exquisite.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2017, 06:09:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
That's almost true but...more correctly, it's tied with the Eighth's Scherzo for the number one slot, followed by:

7, 9, 6, 5, 1, 2



Sarge

Entirely bemusedly, I have of course taken this opportunity to listen to just the scherzi, thank you very much  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 06:22:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 26, 2017, 06:09:22 AM
Entirely bemusedly, I have of course taken this opportunity to listen to just the scherzi, thank you very much  0:)

They are amazingly diverse. They make a good listen on their own.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on April 26, 2017, 01:31:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 25, 2017, 08:21:20 AM
The best scherzo in a Dvorak symphony is No. 4's.

Now if you thought the best finale was no.4's, that would be an opinion truly worthy of this thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 06:04:48 PM
Quote from: DaveF on April 26, 2017, 01:31:21 PM
Now if you thought the best finale was no.4's, that would be an opinion truly worthy of this thread.

True, true  ;D

I think Mrs. Rock might be the only member here to advance that opinion  ;)  Seriously, she loves it but she'd probably rank the finale of the Seventh the best.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on April 27, 2017, 06:13:35 PM
Okay.

Dvorak first movements: 8, 7, 9, 6, 4, 5, 2, 3, 1
Dvorak slow movements: 9, 3, 7, 8, 6, 4, 5, 2, 1
Dvorak scherzos: 4, 8, 7, 9, 6, 2, 5, 1
Dvorak finales: 7, 8, 6, 3, 9, 2, 4, 5, 1
Overall split into tiers: 8, 7, || 9, 6, 3, || 4, 2, || 5, || 1

Hardest choice was best finale - 7 and 8 are equally perfect - and the top four slow movements are a spur-of-the-moment judgment call that might be different tomorrow.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 27, 2017, 06:23:10 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2017, 06:13:35 PM
Okay.

Dvorak first movements: 8, 7, 9, 6, 4, 5, 2, 3, 1
Dvorak slow movements: 9, 3, 7, 8, 6, 4, 5, 2, 1
Dvorak scherzos: 4, 8, 7, 9, 6, 2, 5, 1
Dvorak finales: 7, 8, 6, 3, 9, 2, 5, 4, 1

Hardest choice was best finale - 7 and 8 are equally perfect - and the top four slow movements are a spur-of-the-moment judgment call that might be different tomorrow.

Fun Game, and great choices, Brian. For me, for this moment at least, it goes..

Opening Movement: No. 9
Slow Movement: No. 8
Scherzo: No. 4
Finale: No. 6

Honorable mention...Best opening: No. 1 - that opening Horn line is chills-inducing.  8)

If I had to choose only 1 Dvorak symphony to live with I'd have to go No. 8,.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 06:25:17 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2017, 06:13:35 PM
Okay.

Dvorak first movements: 8, 7, 9, 6, 4, 5, 2, 3, 1
Dvorak slow movements: 9, 3, 7, 8, 6, 4, 5, 2, 1
Dvorak scherzos: 4, 8, 7, 9, 6, 2, 5, 1
Dvorak finales: 7, 8, 6, 3, 9, 2, 4, 5, 1
Overall split into tiers: 8, 7, || 9, 6, 3, || 4, 2, || 5, || 1

Hardest choice was best finale - 7 and 8 are equally perfect - and the top four slow movements are a spur-of-the-moment judgment call that might be different tomorrow.

It's too late to take up the challenge tonight (the sun will be up shortly in Germany...I'm way past my bed time  ;D ), but I'll give it a try tomorrow...or rather, later today.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on April 27, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
first movement tiers - 7, 5, 8 || 6, 9, 4 || 3, 2 || 1
slow movement tiers - 9 || 3, 7 || 6, 8 || the rest in some order
scherzo tiers - 8 || 7, 4, 6, 9, 5 || 2, 1
finale tiers - 7, 6, 8 || 5, 4 || 3, 1, 2, 9

Yes I also like the finale of No. 4, shush.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 27, 2017, 07:26:43 PM
Seem pretty unpopular to opine that the first movement of no. 1 is one I most enjoy.........
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on April 27, 2017, 08:09:24 PM
Throwing a piano down the stairs is more expressive than pressing the keys, though less musical the result.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 27, 2017, 08:23:58 PM
Quote from: Uhor on April 27, 2017, 08:09:24 PM
Throwing a piano down the stairs is more expressive than pressing the keys, though less musical the result.
Poetry.

Actually I think Uhor is the most quotable member of GMG.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2017, 06:32:48 AM
Well, then:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/04/26/mit-students-bring-back-tradition-tossing-piano-off-building/1fXYDASM5jFR9DkLEvkC8K/story.html
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on April 28, 2017, 06:52:40 AM
amw and I have the same top three slow movements in the same order.
Quote from: amw on April 27, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
finale tiers - 7, 6, 8 || 5, 4 || 3, 1, 2, 9
Now here is an unpopular opinion!!! I would like to hear more about this  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2017, 07:03:46 AM
My feeling that reducing the Dvořák symphonies to bracketology seems likely to be an unpopular opinion  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 28, 2017, 08:42:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 28, 2017, 07:03:46 AM
My feeling that reducing the Dvořák symphonies to bracketology seems likely to be an unpopular opinion  8)

Bracketolgy of composers works is the new Lists of "Your Favorite".   8) Gotta keep these threads fresh.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2017, 08:43:50 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 28, 2017, 08:42:56 AM
Bracketolgy of composers works is the new Lists of "Your Favorite".   8) Gotta keep these threads fresh.

Let us live into the now!  0:)

Of course, I am all for us having fun.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on April 28, 2017, 12:44:13 PM
Quote from: amw on April 27, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
finale tiers - 7, 6, 8 || 5, 4 || 3, 1, 2, 9

Splendid! The finale of the New World is a stinker, which can be entirely chopped up into 4-bar phrases (and then thrown in the recycling).  Its only value is that the finale of the Cello concerto kicks off in exactly the same vein, leading you to expect the same 4-bar tedium - but then you get a proper finale (Dvořák's greatest of all, maybe - that opinion can't be too unpopular).  Handsome amends are made, in other words.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on April 28, 2017, 12:48:52 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 06:04:48 PM
I think Mrs. Rock might be the only member here to advance that opinion  ;)

Is she a member?  Are we allowed to guess which one?  She clearly holds some fairly unusual, even bizarre, opinions, so... that doesn't narrow it down much.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2017, 01:06:21 PM
Quote from: DaveF on April 28, 2017, 12:48:52 PM
Is she a member?  Are we allowed to guess which one?  She clearly holds some fairly unusual, even bizarre, opinions, so... that doesn't narrow it down much.

;D :D ;D

Yes, she's a member...though she's only posted five times in the last ten years. Her username is Mrs. Rock. Her essential, desert island briefcase choices:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17151.msg447333.html#msg447333

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2017, 03:03:11 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2017, 06:13:35 PM
Dvorak first movements: 8, 7, 9, 6, 4, 5, 2, 3, 1
Dvorak slow movements: 9, 3, 7, 8, 6, 4, 5, 2, 1
Dvorak scherzos: 4, 8, 7, 9, 6, 2, 5, 1
Dvorak finales: 7, 8, 6, 3, 9, 2, 4, 5, 1
Overall split into tiers: 8, 7, || 9, 6, 3, || 4, 2, || 5, || 1

The major difference is: I like the First and Fourth way more than you do!  ;D

Dvorak first movements: 7, 4, 8, 1, 9, 3, 5, 6, 2
Dvorak slow movements: 9, 4, 7, 3, 8, 5, 1, 6, 2
Dvorak scherzos: 8, 4, 7, 9, 6, 1, 5, 2
Dvorak finales: 7, 8, 9, 3, 1, 5, 2, 6, 4,

This was not easy to do. I really do love them all almost equally. No tiers for me. The First gives as much pleasure as the other eight. That should be unpopular enough for this thread.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 28, 2017, 03:59:06 PM
Dvorak keyboards are cooler than Dvorak symphonies

(Although that's not actually my opinion. Perhaps it is an opinion that exists, just putting it out there)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on April 28, 2017, 06:41:42 PM
Quote from: jessop on April 28, 2017, 03:59:06 PM
Dvorak keyboards are cooler than Dvorak symphonies

(Although that's not actually my opinion. Perhaps it is an opinion that exists, just putting it out there)
Ravel keyboards are cooler than Ravel orchestras, Bolero excepted.  :blank:

(The same is true of Debussy of course but it's not an unpopular opinion when it's about Debussy.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on April 28, 2017, 06:59:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 28, 2017, 06:52:40 AM
Now here is an unpopular opinion!!! I would like to hear more about this  8)
DaveF covered part of it. Plus, it takes even longer to end than No. 1 (or at least feels that way) which is saying something. And that "three blind mice" theme just irritates the h*ck out of me.

I was once at a concert where a guy in the audience got a heart attack in the middle of the movement. The paramedics who carted him out got a longer round of applause than the symphony.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on April 28, 2017, 07:05:30 PM
Quote from: jessop on April 28, 2017, 03:59:06 PM
Dvorak keyboards are cooler than Dvorak symphonies

(Although that's not actually my opinion. Perhaps it is an opinion that exists, just putting it out there)

His piano works do seem to be underated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on April 28, 2017, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: Ken B on April 28, 2017, 06:41:42 PM
Ravel keyboards are cooler than Ravel orchestras, Bolero excepted.  :blank:

(The same is true of Debussy of course but it's not an unpopular opinion when it's about Debussy.)

Ahem. Do you actually know what a Dvorak keyboard is?

Because I honestly can't tell if you're trying to make a lamer joke or just missing the point of the original one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 29, 2017, 04:28:52 AM
Quote from: Ken B on April 28, 2017, 06:41:42 PM
Ravel keyboards are cooler than Ravel orchestras, Bolero excepted.  :blank:

I've quite recently heard live both the original two-piano version of Ma mère l'Oye and its orchestrated incarnation, and the latter is vastly better than the former. The chirping birds, the chinoiseries, the raucous voice of the beast, the apotheosis of the enchanted garden --- all these and many more other nuances and shades are much clearer, colorful, beautiful, effective and impressive when played by a whole orchestra. It's no wonder that Ravel eventually orchestrated it.

So yes, that's definitely impopular in my book.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 29, 2017, 05:44:26 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg/1280px-KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 29, 2017, 06:12:34 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on April 25, 2017, 02:30:07 PM
I think we're safe not ranking the scherzo of no.3.

No wonder it's an unpopular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on April 30, 2017, 01:25:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2017, 01:06:21 PM

;D :D ;D

Yes, she's a member...though she's only posted five times in the last ten years. Her username is Mrs. Rock. Her essential, desert island briefcase choices:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17151.msg447333.html#msg447333

Sarge

Ah, thank you for the intro - she's clearly got better things to do than post on GMG (if there are any better things to do).  Lady of taste, though - Freischütz - mmm.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on April 30, 2017, 08:20:54 AM
Quote from: jessop on April 29, 2017, 05:44:26 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg/1280px-KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg.png)

Spend a week with it and you will never want to go back.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
There is no such thing as absolute music. All music is essentially expressive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 30, 2017, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 29, 2017, 06:12:34 PM
No wonder it's an unpopular opinion.

Unfortunately, much as I enjoy the Dvorak symphonies, when I once tried listening to them all in a row (this was on a long drive from NY to DC), after a while I couldn't really tell one from another.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on April 30, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
There is no such thing as absolute music. All music is essentially expressive.

I wonder in what terrible universe of not at all great education someone got the idea that non-programmatic music (absolute music) = "Not Expressive" Music. 

Because that IS Just Wrong On So Many Levels, lol.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2017, 02:36:23 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 30, 2017, 10:07:34 AM
Unfortunately, much as I enjoy the Dvorak symphonies...after a while I couldn't really tell one from another.

You win the thread! That is an unpopular opinion.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on April 30, 2017, 02:36:39 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
There is no such thing as absolute music. All music is essentially expressive.

The opposite of "absolute" is "programme". Not "expressive".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on April 30, 2017, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: jessop on April 29, 2017, 05:44:26 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg/1280px-KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg.png)

My former working pal made his own "Airas-keyboard" for Finnish language 20 years ago.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120208090148/http://mairas.net/projects/nappaimisto.php (https://web.archive.org/web/20120208090148/http://mairas.net/projects/nappaimisto.php)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on April 30, 2017, 03:06:36 PM
Melody is hugely over-rated as one of the most important elements of (classical) music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 30, 2017, 03:09:42 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
There is no such thing as absolute music. All music is essentially expressive.
Go read some ETA Hoffmann and come back and tell us about it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 30, 2017, 03:10:48 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 30, 2017, 02:47:01 PM
My former working pal made his own "Airas-keyboard" for Finnish language 20 years ago.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120208090148/http://mairas.net/projects/nappaimisto.php (https://web.archive.org/web/20120208090148/http://mairas.net/projects/nappaimisto.php)
Very cool! Same principle? I quite like these and would like to learn to type with one.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on April 30, 2017, 03:23:51 PM
Quote from: jessop on April 30, 2017, 03:10:48 PM
Very cool! Same principle?
Yes, I believe it's the same principle that is behind Dvorak, only for Finnish language. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 11:54:30 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 30, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
I wonder in what terrible universe of not at all great education someone got the idea that non-programmatic music (absolute music) = "Not Expressive" Music. 

You should address this point to Stravinsky. It is he who maintained that music is esentially powerless to express anything at al.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 11:56:14 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on April 30, 2017, 02:36:39 PM
The opposite of "absolute" is "programme". Not "expressive".

Carl Dahlhaus describes absolute music as music without a "concept, object, and purpose". I still maintain that there is no such thing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 01, 2017, 03:42:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 11:56:14 PM
Carl Dahlhaus describes absolute music as music without a "concept, object, and purpose". I still maintain that there is no such thing.

So let me get this straight. Your response to the standard absolute/programme music distinction is to use a definition of something you don't believe in.

Well that's a novel approach, I'll give you that much. But not a very productive one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 04:34:55 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 01, 2017, 03:42:40 AM
So let me get this straight. Your response to the standard absolute/programme music distinction is to use a definition of something you don't believe in.

Well that's a novel approach, I'll give you that much. But not a very productive one.

Well, the thread is about unpopular, not productive opinions. And given the reactions so far, mine is quite unpopular. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 01, 2017, 04:39:23 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 04:34:55 AM
Well, the thread is about unpopular, not productive opinions.  :)

See, I'm not sure you've even got that right. The normal approach is to express an idiosyncratic opinion. What you did was offer a pretty standard opinion by rejecting someone else's idiosyncratic idea.

EDIT: And in response to your edit, no, what's unpopular is your chosen definition of "absolute" music. Both myself and Monsieur Croche think it's absurd. Given that you can't claim credit for the definition, YOU haven't expressed an unpopular opinion. Some other bloke has.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 05:12:41 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 01, 2017, 04:39:23 AM
See, I'm not sure you've even got that right. The normal approach is to express an idiosyncratic opinion. What you did was offer a pretty standard opinion by rejecting someone else's idiosyncratic idea.

EDIT: And in response to your edit, no, what's unpopular is your chosen definition of "absolute" music. Both myself and Monsieur Croche think it's absurd. Given that you can't claim credit for the definition, YOU haven't expressed an unpopular opinion. Some other bloke has.

I'm not interested in, much less going to, getting into an argument with you. I must say*, though, that you have a tendency to take too seriously and too literally everything you read and to split hairs about it. It's probably because of your job so I don't take it personally at all --- it's just that a little detachment and sense of relativity could only do you a lot of service when it comes to internet boards communication.  :)

*In the most friendly manner and with absolutely no offense meant.  :-*
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 01, 2017, 05:21:37 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 04:34:55 AM
Well, the thread is about unpopular, not productive opinions. And given the reactions so far, mine is quite unpopular. :)
But is it atonal?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on May 01, 2017, 05:24:34 AM
Decaux' La mer (the final piece of Clairs de lune) is better than Debussy's.  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 01, 2017, 05:40:56 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 05:12:41 AM


I'm not interested in, much less going to, getting into an argument with you. I must say*, though, that you have a tendency to take too seriously and too literally everything you read and to split hairs about it. It's probably because of your job so I don't take it personally at all --- it's just that a little detachment and sense of relativity could only do you a lot of service when it comes to internet boards communication.  :)

*In the most friendly manner and with absolutely no offense meant.  :-*

What you mean is that I start with the working assumption that people said things for a reason. As opposed to being drunk and bored.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 05:53:58 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 01, 2017, 05:40:56 AM
What you mean is that I start with the working assumption that people said things for a reason.

No. What I mean is that you start with the working assumption that they say things for a serious and important reason.

Come on, my friend, internet posts are not legislative articles.  :laugh:

QuoteAs opposed to being drunk and bored.

Both of them are as good a reason for posting as any other. (For the record, I was neither drunk nor bored when I posted).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 01, 2017, 08:41:17 AM
Quote from: North Star on May 01, 2017, 05:24:34 AM
Decaux' La mer (the final piece of Clairs de lune) is better than Debussy's.  8)
BROTHER!!!

I must listen to that sometime.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 01, 2017, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 05:53:58 AM
Both of them are as good a reason for posting as any other. (For the record, I was neither drunk nor bored when I posted).

My bigger problem is why I choose to read.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 10:16:53 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 01, 2017, 12:47:12 PM
My bigger problem is why I choose to read reply.

Ftfy.  :) :-*

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 02, 2017, 12:38:49 AM
Quote from: jessop on April 30, 2017, 03:09:42 PM
Go read some ETA Hoffmann and come back and tell us about it.

I think the famous passages in Hoffmann illustrate the tension very well. Hoffmann is usually seen as speaking for "absolute" and against programmatic music. But he certainly does not mean that music is a meaningless play of sounds, rather it expresses something much "higher" than mere programmes, namely, "infinite longing", spiritual ecstasy etc.

There are probably several false dichotomies at work because it seems also obvious that music is not like representative language in many ways. If it was like that, there was no need for music. One could simply say what one wanted to express in ordinary language.
And many of the proponents of "absolute" music were only speaking against some strain of programmatic music they found cartoonish or against sophomoric interpretations associating e.g. Beethoven symphonies and quartets with famous plays by Shakespeare or Goethe.
Similarly it seems really odd that a composer who said "I consider that music is, by its very nature, essentially powerless to express anything at all, whether a feeling, an attitude of mind, or psychological mood, a phenomenon of nature, etc....Expression has never been an inherent property of music." is most famous for ballett scores, a genre traditionally not seen as "absolute music". So either almost everybody is listening or watching The Firebird and the Rite of Spring in the wrong mindset, deeply misunderstanding (whatever that means here, if there is nothing to express, is there anything to *understand* in music?) the composer. Or the composer's statement is not taken to be quite as general and "absolutist" as it may sound.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 02, 2017, 03:32:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 02, 2017, 12:38:49 AM
[E.T.A. Hoffmann] does not mean that music is a meaningless play of sounds

Of course he doesn't. Jessop, it's actually you who should read him, I know only too well what he wrote.

Quote
Similarly it seems really odd that a composer who said "I consider that music is, by its very nature, essentially powerless to express anything at all, whether a feeling, an attitude of mind, or psychological mood, a phenomenon of nature, etc....Expression has never been an inherent property of music." is most famous for ballett scores, a genre traditionally not seen as "absolute music". So either almost everybody is listening or watching The Firebird and the Rite of Spring in the wrong mindset, deeply misunderstanding (whatever that means here, if there is nothing to express, is there anything to *understand* in music?) the composer.

+ 1.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2017, 03:32:45 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2017, 10:16:53 PM
Ftfy.  :) :-*

Mate, I'll choose my own words thanks. You're genuinely beginning to irritate me now.

The fact is you decided to make some kind of quip that fell utterly flat. Stop trying to rescue it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 02, 2017, 03:48:26 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 02, 2017, 03:32:45 AM
Mate, I'll choose my own words thanks. You're genuinely beginning to irritate me now.

The fact is you decided to make some kind of quip that fell utterly flat. Stop trying to rescue it.

Whatever. Anyway, cool off a bit. It's just words. Gosh, you do take any trifle as your whole life depended on it. Not good for health.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on May 02, 2017, 08:19:05 AM
Quote from: jessop on April 30, 2017, 03:09:42 PM
Go read some ETA Hoffmann and come back and tell us about it.

Anyone who mouths off enough -- over a long enough period of time - will either actually have said something contradicting what they said earlier, or say something others will point to as contradicting what was 'dicted' earlier.

Like the late Boulez' declaration of a need to "burn down all the opera houses," or Stravinsky's statement that music can not express anything, it is good to remember the time, the context, and thence, the motivation for such statements; so many of this sort of statement stemming from a reaction to the actualities and mode du jour sensibility of the moment.

Similarly, it is more than important to keep in mind E.T.A. Hoffman was a force majeure proponent of Romanticism, to a degree where he flat out misappropriated Beethoven as a romantic -- towards Hoffman's own ends.  If there is more than a little conflict with his slapping the romantic tag on a classical composer and what else Hoffman put forth, that should not be at all surprising.

As interesting as even the best writing about music and its aesthetics might be (I am a big fan of Debussy's collected essays and those conversations with my screen-name namesake, Monsieur Croche, as well as recalling Stravinsky's Poetics of Music lectures as also quite enjoyable), even the best of it is to me so less worthwhile when it is compared with what composers have actually composed ;-)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on May 02, 2017, 08:24:35 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 02, 2017, 12:38:49 AM
I think the famous passages in Hoffmann illustrate the tension very well. Hoffmann is usually seen as speaking for "absolute" and against programmatic music. But he certainly does not mean that music is a meaningless play of sounds, rather it expresses something much "higher" than mere programmes, namely, "infinite longing", spiritual ecstasy etc.

Isn't it just amazing how in sync those qualities are with the aesthetic of Romanticism?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 02, 2017, 03:04:38 PM
Still, Hoffmann's idea of music which evokes whatever 'infinite realm' of emotion he is imagining is pretty much just how he describes what was later called 'absolute music.'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 02, 2017, 11:11:34 PM
Exactly. This is the interesting thing. He speaks clearly against programmatic music, roughly because what music expresses is far more subtle and moving than simple depiction. (He enlists not only Beethoven but also Mozart and even Haydn as "romantic" composers.)
But later on in the conflict between Hanslick and the "Neudeutschen", Hanslick often comes across as a dry "classicist" whereas the other side generally dismissed "absolute music" in favor of programmatic tone poems and Wagnerian musical drama. But this seems a false dichotomy when looking at Hoffmann who seems to mean that music despite being non-programmatic should express far more than mere "sound forms/patterns" (Hanslick's "tönend bewegte Form" - this seems to be closer to Stravinskian notions of what music is/should be) would.
There is also quite a bit of music that does not seem to fit into the strict dichotomy. Take many piano pieces by Schumann. They have poetic titles and some might even be thought of as depicting or illustrating something but generally they are not programmatic in the sense Vltava or Till Eulenspiegel are.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 01:00:25 AM
Actually, Hoffmann contradicts himself big time.

First he writes this:

Did you poor composers of instrumental music who have labored to express certain feelings, nay, even occurrences, have even the faintest idea of its peculiar nature?--How could you even think of trying to treat this art that is the very opposite of plastic depiction, in a plastic manner? Your sunrises, your thunderstorms, your battles of three emperors and so on were certainly ridiculous errors and are deservedly punished by being entirely forgotten.

Two things are to be noted here:

1. The implication that it is not in the nature of instrumental music to express feelings or events --- a proto-Stravinskyan stance.

2. Too bad he didn't review Beethoven's Sixth, or Wellington's Victory: he'd have been forced to notice that his hero succumbed to the ridiculous error of depicting sunrises, thunderstorms and battles.

Then he goes on waxing poetic about Haydn thus:

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions.  His symphonies lead us  to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people.  Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other.  A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain, only a sweet, melancholy longing for a figure that floats by in the distance, at dusk, and does not come nearer, does not vanish, and, as long as it is present, it does not turn into night, since it is the evening glow, itself, in which mountains and fields are steeped.

I submit for you consideration that:

1. The above paragraph --- which is as plastic a depiction as it gets --- implies that music can actually express far more than mere feelings and events; it is the aural equivalent of a Poussin painting. Notice especially the contradiction between "poor composers of instrumental music who have labored to express certain feelings" and "The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions".

2. All that (a) is to be found more in Hoffmann's imagination than in any work of Haydn one can think of (too bad he didn't specify which one he had in mind when writing --- I suspect, though, that he had none), and (b) is far more ridiculous than depicting thunderstorms and battles in instrumental music, which has been done since middle Baroque onwards on a constant basis and quite successfully in some cases.

It is obvious, though, that Hoffmann was far from regarding instrumental music as mere "tönend bewegte Form" or as being without a "concept, object and purpose".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 03, 2017, 02:50:50 AM
Hoffmann writing about Beethoven reminds me of Justin Bieber fans
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2017, 03:10:42 AM
Well, but Hoffman was a man of culture.  Perspective!  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on May 03, 2017, 03:31:08 AM
Speaking of gushing fans, here's one.

QuoteI must not speak as a musician to a musician if I am to give any idea of the incredible impression your symphony made on me: I can speak only as one human being to another. For I saw your very soul, naked, stark naked. It was revealed to me as a stretch of wild and secret country, with eerie chasms and abysses neighboured by sunlit, smiling meadows, haunts of idyllic repose. I felt it as an event of nature, which after scourging us with its terrors puts a rainbow in the sky. What does it matter that what I was told afterwards of your "programme" did not seem to correspond altogether with what I had felt? Whether I am a good or a bad indicator of feelings an experiences arouses in me is not the point. Must I have a correct understanding of what I have lived and felt? And I believe I felt your symphony. I shared in the battling for illusion; I suffered the pangs of disillusionment; I saw the forces of evil and good wrestling with each other; I saw a man in torment struggling towards inward harmony; I divined a personality, a drama, and truthfulness, the most uncompromising truthfulness.

I had to let myself go. Forgive me. I cannot feel by halves. With me it is one thing or the other!

5 points to the person who guesses the writer without looking it up!  (5 more if they can guess the recipient)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 03:38:48 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 03, 2017, 03:31:08 AM
Speaking of gushing fans, here's one.

5 points to the person who guesses the writer without looking it up!  (5 more if they can guess the recipient)

I guess Mahler is either the writer or the recipient.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on May 03, 2017, 03:46:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 03:38:48 AM
I guess Mahler is either the writer or the recipient.  :)

Yes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2017, 03:48:45 AM
So, as yet, no points awarded?  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 03:53:25 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 03, 2017, 03:46:47 AM
Yes.

Okay, I'll take my chance: Hugo Wolf writer, Mahler recipient, the latter's 1st symphony subject.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on May 03, 2017, 03:56:58 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 03:53:25 AM
Okay, I'll take my chance: Hugo Wolf writer, Mahler recipient, the latter's 1st symphony subject.

No, yes, no.  5 points!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2017, 04:00:38 AM
Was Schoenberg the writer?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 04:00:55 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 03, 2017, 03:56:58 AM
No, yes, no.  5 points!

Thanks. The Mahler part was easy, though. Now you made me curious. Looking up.... Hah! Had I thought about it a little more I would have guessed the writer as well.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on May 03, 2017, 04:01:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 03, 2017, 04:00:38 AM
Was Schoenberg the writer?

Yes.  5 points!

The subject was the Third Symphony, incidentally.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2017, 04:02:09 AM
A tie, Andrei!  An honor to take part with you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 04:02:40 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 03, 2017, 04:02:09 AM
A tie, Andrei!  An honor to take part with you.

Likewise, Karl, likewise.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on May 03, 2017, 06:23:21 AM
I got a little drunk last night and came to the realization that Stockhausen haters are a bunch of petty snowflakes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2017, 06:30:35 AM
Welcome back, Nathan!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on May 03, 2017, 06:42:15 AM
Quote from: nathanb on May 03, 2017, 06:23:21 AM
I got a little drunk last night and came to the realization that Stockhausen haters are a bunch of petty snowflakes.

I'm not a Stockhausen hater. I just don't know how to explore his works.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2017, 07:38:57 AM
Wilhem Furtwangler was a better composer than he was a conductor.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on May 03, 2017, 08:00:38 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2017, 06:42:15 AM
I'm not a Stockhausen hater. I just don't know how to explore his works.

Then you have not sinned, my brother. Go in peace.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2017, 08:25:04 AM
Heaven forfend that we should sin against The Karlheinz!  0:) 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on May 03, 2017, 10:54:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 03, 2017, 08:25:04 AM
Heaven forfend that we should sin against The Karlheinz!  0:) 8)

As the prophet of Stockhausen, I say unto thee: let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
I am worse than a sinner, I´m a heretic. I haven´t heard one single note of Stockhausen, nor do I feel any need in this respect.  >:D  ;D  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 03, 2017, 12:01:34 PM
Quote from: nathanb on May 03, 2017, 06:23:21 AM
I got a little drunk last night and came to the realization that Stockhausen haters are a bunch of petty snowflakes.
Hell no. We're a bunch of petty granite blocks. The snowflake melts and panics when you point out the emperor has no clothes; pointing that out is the entire substance of Stockhausen bashing. Snowflakes flee our unsparing bluntness.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on May 03, 2017, 01:13:16 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 03, 2017, 11:31:13 AMI haven´t heard one single note of Stockhausen

As is true of many of Stockhausen's critics. How on earth this entitles one to such a strong opinion is truly beyond me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2017, 02:11:05 PM
This snowflake listened to several hours of Stockhausen before concluding that was a sufficient dose for many, many years.

About the only interest I'd have now is watching the different prophets of Stockhausen fight it out to determine who is more worthy. Does James know what is going on in here?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2017, 02:12:58 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2017, 07:38:57 AM
Wilhem Furtwangler was a better composer than he was a conductor.

This doesn't quite tell me whether you think he was a good composer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 03, 2017, 11:24:47 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 03, 2017, 02:12:58 PM
This doesn't quite tell me whether you think he was a good composer.
The opinion will be rather unpopular either way without having us to read his mind.
That Furtwängler was a good composer is unpopular, regardless of what one thinks of his conducting. And if the opinion about the composer is the common/popular one, namely that he was not all that good, than the implication is that he was a pretty bad conductor which is again unpopular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 04, 2017, 03:24:50 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 03, 2017, 11:24:47 PM
The opinion will be rather unpopular either way without having us to read his mind.
That Furtwängler was a good composer is unpopular, regardless of what one thinks of his conducting. And if the opinion about the composer is the common/popular one, namely that he was not all that good, than the implication is that he was a pretty bad conductor which is again unpopular.

I was interested in the opinion, not the popularity of it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on May 04, 2017, 08:01:30 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 03, 2017, 02:11:05 PM
This snowflake listened to several hours of Stockhausen before concluding that was a sufficient dose for many, many years.

About the only interest I'd have now is watching the different prophets of Stockhausen fight it out to determine who is more worthy. Does James know what is going on in here?

I have heard only one piece by Stockhausen which I have come close to liking: Tierkreis.  Nor have I heard anything which makes me think it worth the effort of trying to "get" his music (unlike others such as Ligeti, Carter, and Boulez).   Take away most of the extramusical elements, such as the choreography and costuming of performers, and I think we are left with music which has been done better by others.

It is also true that the fanaticism of a certain person in his cause, laced as it was with sneers and disparagement of people who were not as into KHS as he was, turned me against KHS even more than the vapidity (my personal opinion, not meant to be objective and impartial!) of the music.  It is therefore quite astonishing to see recent posts from that gentleman indicating he has drastically changed his opinion of KHS, and indeed may be said to be, like me, bored by KHS's music.

So I don't plan on exploring more Stockhausen.  There is more than enough music by composers active since 1960, and more than enough music written by currently living and active composers, which I don't know at all, and at least some of which I am sure deserves my attention.  I'd rather devote my efforts there instead of dealing with music I know I find flat stale and unprofitable.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 04, 2017, 08:37:09 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 03, 2017, 02:12:58 PM
This doesn't quite tell me whether you think he was a good composer.
Good point. From listening to his works I think they show solid structure, unity and development but the ideas aren't all that unique or interesting. It is as if I have heard them somewhere else even though I was listening to them the first time. I think his contemporary, one who also enjoyed quite a bit of success as a conductor, Felix Weingartner was a much better composer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 09:24:40 AM
Posters should note that I have no problem with ambivalence to Stockhausen's music. But, given the breadth of his oeuvre, "several hours" is hardly enough to justify the constant bashing, which is quite a bit more than ambivalence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ghost Sonata on May 04, 2017, 10:01:08 AM
In high school, a buddy of mine and I were fascinated by Stockhausen.  Long before I heard a note of Mendelssohn (that I was aware of - I was certain to have heard the Wedding March, of course), we were obsessed with Stockhausen's iconoclasm, which appealed to our adolescent rejection of all or most of what came before.  I realize now it was meaningless if not utter folly to destroy the icons before you'd seen (heard) them, least of all understood them.  Anyway, I can still listen to him with interest, if not always pleasure (Stimmung is a favorite), and wonder if his detractors may be making the same mistake I did in reverse. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2017, 10:46:57 AM
Quote from: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 09:24:40 AM
Posters should note that I have no problem with ambivalence to Stockhausen's music. But, given the breadth of his oeuvre, "several hours" is hardly enough to justify the constant bashing, which is quite a bit more than ambivalence.

Maybe I am inattentive, but I was not aware of constant bashing of Stockhausen.  In the opposite direction, James's cheerleading seems to have tapered off from a constant flow.  On a secondary plane, there may be chaffing of the cheerleading, which is not the same thing as bashing Stockhausen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2017, 10:56:01 AM
A person doesn't have to spend six months with Stockhausen's music to know it's not for them. A few listens to a couple of works and you get the general aesthetic of his music. This said, I never understood the fascination, but to each his own.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 04, 2017, 10:58:57 AM
Regarding Stockhausen I will paraphrase one reviewer on Youtube:

If I die and wake up to this music then I know I have gone to the wrong place.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 04, 2017, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2017, 10:56:01 AM
A person doesn't have to spend six months with Stockhausen's music to know it's not for them. A few listens to a couple of works and you get the general aesthetic of his music. This said, I never understood the fascination, but to each his own.

That's at least the third comment I've see from YOU dissing Stockhausen. That's 3 maybe 4 out of only 38,583 comments. Will you never relent?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2017, 11:16:41 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 04, 2017, 11:15:17 AM
That's at least the third comment I've see from YOU dissing Stockhausen. That's 3 maybe 4 out of only 38,583 comments. Will you never relent?

Said a guy who goes out of his way to diss Debussy's La Mer every chance he gets.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on May 04, 2017, 11:17:10 AM
I have never, to my knowledge, heard a note of music by Stockhausen. It is mainly the praise, rather than criticism, of Stockhausen that has convinced me that there is no need.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 04, 2017, 11:26:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2017, 11:16:41 AM
Said a guy who goes out of his way to diss Debussy's La Mer every chance he gets.
You need to work on your irony detector John.

La Mer is at least as good as anything by Stockhausen  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 11:40:30 AM
A lot of people seem to value other people's opinions of music over using their actual ears. An interesting phenomenon, imo.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2017, 11:58:33 AM
Quote from: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 11:40:30 AM
A lot of people seem to value other people's opinions of music over using their actual ears. An interesting phenomenon, imo.
Example?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on May 04, 2017, 12:07:04 PM
Quote from: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 11:40:30 AM
A lot of people seem to value other people's opinions of music over using their actual ears. An interesting phenomenon, imo.

We all do it in some way.

I am familiar with X's taste in music, and how it differs or does not differ from mine. I can therefore often judge what my probable opinion of a work of music will be based on X's reaction.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2017, 12:41:17 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 04, 2017, 11:26:07 AM
You need to work on your irony detector John.

La Mer is at least as good as anything by Stockhausen  ;)

Well, irony is difficult to detect over the web. A smiley or laughing emoticon in your initial post wouldn't have hurt. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2017, 12:50:03 PM
Quote from: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 11:40:30 AM
A lot of people seem to value other people's opinions of music over using their actual ears. An interesting phenomenon, imo.

No worries about that here. Me, myself, and I are all present whenever we say Stockhausen isn't for us. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on May 04, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 04, 2017, 11:58:33 AM
Example?

I would not put it so strongly, but I find myself surprised by the extent to which people value recommendations of the "best" version of a piece. I find that someone's opinion that a recording is good, bad, better, worse gives me almost no information about whether I will enjoy it. When I see a review of a recording on this site, almost all the information resides in the fact that the recording exists. (And often that is very valuable information.) Sometimes objective statements are useful (tempo fast/slow, repeats taken/not taken). The hallmark of a useful comment is that it is value neutral; I can determine that I would like it even though the person commenting didn't like it, or vice versa.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 04, 2017, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 09:24:40 AM
Posters should note that I have no problem with ambivalence to Stockhausen's music. But, given the breadth of his oeuvre, "several hours" is hardly enough to justify the constant bashing, which is quite a bit more than ambivalence.

Stop creating straw men. Constant bashing? This is most likely the first time I've mentioned the man all year.

And the notion that it's hardly enough is ludicrous anyway. Exactly how long would you suggest someone keep hitting their hand against a wall before saying "ouch, that's hard"?  How many times does someone need to taste a food before saying that they don't like the taste of it?

If you don't think that several hours (minus sceptical quote marks, thanks very much) is enough, then come up with a damn figure. Tell me what percentage of the total oeuvre is required, estimate the total number of hours of music composed (shouldn't be that hard with all the recordings) and tell me the figure.

And if your chosen percentage is nowhere near the kind of sampling used in surveys and opinion polls, then I'll feel quite comfortable in laughing at you all day.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on May 04, 2017, 01:58:53 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 04, 2017, 11:58:33 AM
Example?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

First post on this page.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 03:38:26 AM
Barring the attachment of non-musical information, it is impossible, completely impossible, to write music which will mean the same thing, emotionally, to all listeners.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 04:12:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 03:38:26 AM
Barring the attachment of non-musical information, it is impossible, completely impossible, to write music which will mean the same thing, emotionally, to all listeners.

It would be an interesting challenge to try and write something that generates a universal dislike.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 04:15:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 03:38:26 AM
Barring the attachment of non-musical information, it is impossible, completely impossible, to write music which will mean the same thing, emotionally, to all listeners.

I'm not sure about that. I mean, today it might be. In the past, though, it might have been possible. Gurn has suggested repeatedly in his essays that Haydn was a master of cleverly calculating, and effectively achieving, desired emotional responses from his listeners.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 04:43:15 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 04:15:18 AM
I'm not sure about that. I mean, today it might be. In the past, though, it might have been possible. Gurn has suggested repeatedly in his essays that Haydn was a master of cleverly calculating, and effectively achieving, desired emotional responses from his listeners.

It requires a cultural environment which conditions the reception of the art.

It is not a popular assertion, but one can read Stravinsky's infamous remark as simply true, if we but draw a distinction between [x provokes/invites an emotional response] and [x expresses a certain emotion].  Of course, this is not nearly so cathartic or satisfying as to castigate a great composer for saying something which we can readily protest  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:03:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 04:43:15 AM
It requires a cultural environment which conditions the reception of the art.

And which is simply inescapable. Haydn's cultural environment was not only part and parcel of his music --- it was the very substance breeding, nurturing and sustaining it.

The creation, and reception, of every art is culturally conditioned. Your own music is no exception. Had you been born in another time or / and place, it would have certainly sounded differently.

To divorce art from the cultural environment which made it possible, and to brand the latter as something extraneous to that art is an impossible operation for me. 

QuoteIt is not a popular assertion, but one can read Stravinsky's infamous remark as simply true, if we but draw a distinction between [x provokes/invites an emotional response] and [x expresses a certain emotion].

That's another distinction I can't make --- at least not for the kind of music which is my daily bread and cup of tea. This is not to say that it doesn't hold true for other kinds of music, Stravinsky's own included.

Quote
Of course, this is not nearly so cathartic or satisfying as to castigate a great composer for saying something which we can readily protest  8)

A great composer is not ipso facto exempt from saying unrealistic, provocative or stupid things. Stravinsky just talked and wrote more than others.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 05:09:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:03:38 AM
The creation, and reception, of every art is culturally conditioned. Your own music is no exception. Had you been born in another time or / and place, it would have certainly sounded differently.

To divorce art from the cultural environment which made it possible, and to brand the latter as something extraneous to that art is an impossible operation for me.

I put it to you that it is not at all impossible, but that it is simply the case.  None of us lives in the cultural environment that JS Bach lived in.  This fact does not seriously impede our appreciation of his superb musical excellence.

Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:03:38 AMThat's another distinction I can't make --- at least not for the kind of music which is my daily bread and cup of tea.

Okay, then. Given my thesis above (Barring the attachment of non-musical information, it is impossible, completely impossible, to write music which will mean the same thing, emotionally, to all listeners) what counter-examples can you furnish from your musical larder?  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 05:09:42 AM
None of us lives in the cultural environment that Liszt lived in, either.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 05:24:31 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:03:38 AM
A great composer is not ipso facto exempt from saying unrealistic, provocative or stupid things. Stravinsky just talked and wrote more than others.  ;D

Complete agreement.  One of the wryer aspects here is, that Игорь Фëдорович prided himself on being "the Anti-Wagner," but he was a great artist who courted celebrity, which is a lifestyle very much of that epoch.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 05:25:55 AM
Karl, sometimes your affectation for writing in Cyrillic gets the better of you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 05:27:57 AM
Noted, thanks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:32:16 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 05:09:05 AM
I put it to you that it is not at all impossible, but that it is simply the case.  None of us lives in the cultural environment that JS Bach lived in.  This fact does not seriously impede our appreciation of his superb musical excellence.

It does impede our full appreciation of his religious music, though, which was meant to be heard exclusively in church and to stir piety and devotion in the already believing listeners.

Quote
Okay, then. Given my thesis above (Barring the attachment of non-musical information, it is impossible, completely impossible, to write music which will mean the same thing, emotionally, to all listeners) what counter-examples can you furnish from your musical larder?  :)

Otomh, Schubert's String Quintet and Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. AFAIK, GMG posts and discussions included, the emotional reactions to these pieces of "absolute music" are fairly uniform.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 05:09:42 AM
None of us lives in the cultural environment that Liszt lived in, either.

Precisely. That's why the music of Liszt does not impress us anymore as extremely revolutionary to the point of being shocking and unintelligible, and also why for us the War of the Romantics is just a piece of cultural history which does not force us to take sides.

The past is a foreign country. We will never be able to hear the music of the past with the same ears as people back then did, and we might even appreciate some of it for reasons that to those people would seem strange.

That being said, my literary taste and general personality make me feel much closer to, say, Schubert's cultural environment than to my own.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:34:28 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 16, 2017, 05:25:55 AM
Karl, sometimes your affectation for writing in Cyrillic gets the better of you.

Honestly, it has began to get on my nerves.   :D

I doubt that in Russian books this or that composer is referred to only by his name and patronimic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 05:46:00 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:32:16 AM
Otomh, Schubert's String Quintet and Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. AFAIK, GMG posts and discussions included, the emotional reactions to these pieces of "absolute music" are fairly uniform.

Well, that is an interesting question.  The Sarge and I have found ourselves interpreting (e.g.) the Brahms Fourth in different emotional tones.  In fact, I should be very surprised if the emotional "reading" of the Tchaikovsky Fifth is uniform among us!  For only one consideration, we know that the same piece can "express" different emotions when performed at different tempi.  But if we can test the question, I am sure the results would be illuming.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:51:46 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 05:46:00 AM
I should be very surprised if the emotional "reading" of the Tchaikovsky Fifth is uniform among us!

It is commonly regarded (ie, I have yet to read / hear a different view or interpretation) as telling a tale of struggle against, and final triumph over, an ominous and fiendish fate.

Quote
  For only one consideration, we know that the same piece can "express" different emotions when performed at different tempi.

I'll stick to the tempo indicated by the composer, though, he surely must have a reason for not choosing any other.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 05:53:59 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:34:28 AM
Honestly, it has began to get on my nerves.   :D

I doubt that in Russian books this or that composer is referred to only by his name and patronimic.

I've honestly no idea what they do in books that are written in Russian, though it's worth noting that Russians started having genuine surnames quite some time ago (as is true of most European cultures, not those pesky Icelanders though). A bit of Wikipedia research does indicate that name + patronymic is one of the formal forms of address.

But I'm fairly confident that when Russian composers moved to other parts of the world that used the Latin alphabet, they figured out a way to write their name in that form and made use of it in that form.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2017, 05:58:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:51:46 AM
It is commonly regarded (ie, I have yet to read / hear a different view or interpretation) as telling a tale of struggle against, and final triumph over, an ominous and fiendish fate.
I don't think that this is an emotional reaction, however. It was specified by Tchaikovsky in a note or letter of some kind, was it not? And, at least for myself, I do not think of "struggle against fate" as an emotion that I feel in reaction to something. In fact, I don't feel it in regard to this symphony; I've been converted to the school which sees it as more of a symphonic extension of his ballet writing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 16, 2017, 06:00:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:32:16 AM
.... Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. AFAIK, GMG posts and discussions included, the emotional reactions to these pieces of "absolute music" are fairly uniform...
I would never have thought that the emotional reaction that piece generates in me (actually, it's more a physical one--nausea) was common here on GMG...

More seriously, that is a paradigmatic compsotion in that it represents what some of us do not want (or expect) from music...some "message" being forced on us in a sentimental way....

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2017, 06:01:24 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 16, 2017, 04:12:25 AM
It would be an interesting challenge to try and write something that generates a universal dislike.
This has been attempted! Unfortunately...I kind of like it.

The Most Unwanted Song (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Unwanted_Song) came about when they surveyed listeners and identified things people hate (needlessly long songs, children singing holiday carols, advertisement jingles, bagpipes, jarring transitions, etc.) and then put them all in one song.

https://www.youtube.com/v/-gPuH1yeZ08
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 06:07:07 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:51:46 AM
It is commonly regarded (ie, I have yet to read / hear a different view or interpretation) as telling a tale of struggle against, and final triumph over, an ominous and fiendish fate.

Ah, so you mean that this does not qualify to test my thesis, as there are non-musical informants?

Quote from: Brian on May 16, 2017, 05:58:47 AM
I don't think that this is an emotional reaction, however. It was specified by Tchaikovsky in a note or letter of some kind, was it not? And, at least for myself, I do not think of "struggle against fate" as an emotion that I feel in reaction to something. In fact, I don't feel it in regard to this symphony; I've been converted to the school which sees it as more of a symphonic extension of his ballet writing.

I keep forgetting if this was the e minor or the f minor symphony;  yes, there is a latter to (I believe) Mme. von Meck.  And I remember reading a discussion which actually uses the circumstance of this letter to argue against elevating the program to a compositional determinant.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 06:08:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 16, 2017, 06:01:24 AM
This has been attempted! Unfortunately...I kind of like it.

The Most Unwanted Song (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Unwanted_Song) came about when they surveyed listeners and identified things people hate (needlessly long songs, children singing holiday carols, advertisement jingles, bagpipes, jarring transitions, etc.) and then put them all in one song.

https://www.youtube.com/v/-gPuH1yeZ08

I'm prepared to say the first 2 minutes aren't that bad. But as I should be heading for bed, I think the rest will have to go unlistened.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:09:05 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 16, 2017, 05:58:47 AM
I don't think that this is an emotional reaction, however. It was specified by Tchaikovsky in a note or letter of some kind, was it not?

At the time I first heard it I had no idea whatsoever about any letter Tchaikovsky might have written, nor how it was interpreted by others --- it was simply that my reaction to, and perception of, the "story" told by the music coincided perfectly with what I have read / found later.

Yet, I am not saying that a fairly uniform reaction is always the acse. Do you remember how heavily we diverged in our interpretation of (if I'm not mistaken) Sibelius' Sixth?  :)


Quote from: ritter on May 16, 2017, 06:00:39 AM
More seriously, that is a paradigmatic compsotion in that it represents what some of us do not want (or expect) from music...some "message" being forced on us in a sentimental way....

De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est.  But then again, how come you like Wagner? :)



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 06:09:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:51:46 AM
I'll stick to the tempo indicated by the composer, though, he surely must have a reason for not choosing any other.

This works only for those works with specific metronome markings, I suppose.  Or, only for those pieces which really must be performed at that marking, and at no other.  I do not believe that if the Bach C Major Prelude from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier is always played at the same tempo, it will express the same emotion to all listeners.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:13:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 06:07:07 AM
Ah, so you mean that this does not qualify to test my thesis, as there are non-musical informants?

From Wikipedia:

Unlike its two predecessors, the 5th Symphony has no clear program. On 15 April 1888, about a month before he began composing the symphony, the composer sketched a scenario for its first movement in his notebook, containing "... a complete resignation before fate, which is the same as the inscrutable predestination of fate ..." It is however uncertain how much of this program has been realised in the composition.[2]

I was completely unaware of Tchaikovsky's notebook entry at the time I first heard it, yet struggle against fate was exactly how I perceived it. Call it coincidence, if you wish, I don't mind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:15:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 06:09:39 AM
I do not believe that if the Bach C Major Prelude from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier is always played at the same tempo, it will express the same emotion to all listeners.

Nor do I. You just asked for counter examples to your thesis, I gave you two. I'm not saying that it is always the case that the same piece ellicit fairly uniform reactions and interpretations, I'm just saying that it happens.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 06:19:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:13:56 AM
From Wikipedia:

Unlike its two predecessors, the 5th Symphony has no clear program. On 15 April 1888, about a month before he began composing the symphony, the composer sketched a scenario for its first movement in his notebook, containing "... a complete resignation before fate, which is the same as the inscrutable predestination of fate ..." It is however uncertain how much of this program has been realised in the composition.[2]

I was completely unaware of Tchaikovsky's notebook entry at the time I first heard it, yet struggle against fate was exactly how I perceived it. Call it coincidence, if you wish, I don't mind.

I doubt it is coincidence, but I also question that this is how every 'blind listener' will receive it.

Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:15:48 AM
Nor do I. You just asked for counter examples to your thesis, I gave you two. I'm not saying that it is always the case that the same piece ellicit fairly uniform reactions and interpretations, I'm just saying that it happens.

Of course, dear fellow.  And it would be only one data point, not necessarily the most important question, but I wonder (that is, I do not have my scores to hand) whether Tchaikovsky inscribed metronome markings.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on May 16, 2017, 06:20:51 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 16, 2017, 06:01:24 AM
This has been attempted! Unfortunately...I kind of like it.

The Most Unwanted Song (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Unwanted_Song) came about when they surveyed listeners and identified things people hate (needlessly long songs, children singing holiday carols, advertisement jingles, bagpipes, jarring transitions, etc.) and then put them all in one song.

https://www.youtube.com/v/-gPuH1yeZ08

I listened to this about 15 years ago when it was fresh I believe. It's "interesting".  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:24:58 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 06:19:47 AM
Of course, dear fellow.  And it would be only one data point, not necessarily the most important question, but I wonder (that is, I do not have my scores to hand) whether Tchaikovsky inscribed metronome markings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Tchaikovsky) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Tchaikovsky))

Scroll down to 1st Movement and from there on.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 06:27:56 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 16, 2017, 05:25:55 AM
Karl, sometimes your affectation for writing in Cyrillic gets the better of you.

Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:34:28 AM
Honestly, it has began to get on my nerves.   :D

I doubt that in Russian books this or that composer is referred to only by his name and patronimic.

Of course, I am not writing a book here.  I accept that it is an artifice, but of course since you perceive it as an affectation, to continue with my eccentricity would reflect poorly on me.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 06:19:47 AM
Of course, dear fellow.  And it would be only one data point, not necessarily the most important question, but I wonder (that is, I do not have my scores to hand) whether Tchaikovsky inscribed metronome markings.


Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:24:58 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Tchaikovsky) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Tchaikovsky))

Scroll down to 1st Movement and from there on.


Thanks.  The secondary point stands, and particularly in the case of the Romantic orchestral repertoire which is meant to be played by large forces in substantial spaces.  A single metronome marking will not serve for all spaces.  Please, please, do not take my word for it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2017, 06:33:50 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 06:09:05 AM
Yet, I am not saying that a fairly uniform reaction is always the acse. Do you remember how heavily we diverged in our interpretation of (if I'm not mistaken) Sibelius' Sixth?  :)
I do!! That is one of several works where my view is a happy outlier.

Another example: Richard Strauss allegedly said, in his old age or shortly before his death, that it felt just like he had written in Tod und Verklärung. When my mother heard that work in concert, having read the program notes, she said, "He shouldn't have attached a program to it! It doesn't sound like that at all. I want my imagination to wander freely without someone telling me what it is!"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 06:36:23 AM
Another interpretation of the Tchaikovsky Fifth:

QuoteOf the Fifth Tchaikovsky Symphony one hardly knows what to say.  It is less untamed in spirit than the composer's B-flat minor Concerto, less recklessly harsh in its polyphonic writing, less indicative of the composer's disposition to swear a theme's way through a stone wall.  In the Finale we have all the untamed fury of the Cossack, whetting itself for deeds of atrocity, against all the sterility of the Russian steppes.  The furious peroration sounds like nothing so much as a horde of demons struggling in a torrent of brandy, the music growing drunker and drunker.  Pandemonium, delirium tremens, raving, and above all, noise worse confounded!

Boston Evening Transcript, 24 Oct 1892
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on May 16, 2017, 07:13:46 AM
Add me to the camp that doesn't see Pjotr Iljič Čajkovskij's Fifth as a struggle against fate. I wouldn't describe any piece of music that way actually (obviously excepting operas where that is the theme, such as Pelleas)

Also gotta say I have come across lots of people who hear Schubert's C major quintet as an unproblematic lyric idyl, or as a boring and overly long and repetitive sequence of disconnected tunes with no substance. I do not subscribe to those views myself obviously.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2017, 07:25:33 AM
Quote from: amw on May 16, 2017, 07:13:46 AM
Add me to the camp that doesn't see Pjotr Iljič Čajkovskij's Fifth as a struggle against fate. I wouldn't describe any piece of music that way actually

Not even Mahler 6?

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on May 16, 2017, 07:42:14 AM
Not really. I honestly see the point of Mahler 6 as being that fate doesn't exist, that things could easily go differently (andante moderato with minor chords turning to major instead of the other way round, etc) and that the eventual tragedy is totally evitable. The symphony could easily have ended in A major if it hadn't made one particular, avoidable decision that disrupts the flow of the coda and expends all the pent-up energy of the piece... I think part of the point is that a calm, transfigured A major coda fading to pianissimo would be totally possible, and then after that is ruled out a noble, dignified A minor coda fading to pianissimo would be totally possible... and indeed almost does happen. I feel like Mahler creates this effect with the additive structure of the finale, which takes a sonata form and bolts on more and more extra pieces that aren't strictly necessary but do change the emotional balance of the piece. And a lot of these are based on the same or similar ideas, so one gets a feeling more of obsession, being unable to move on, etc.

That's just one weirdo's interpretation though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 11:47:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 06:36:23 AM
Another interpretation of the Tchaikovsky Fifth:

Boston Evening Transcript, 24 Oct 1892

Add this to what you already quoted from a Boston newspaper that Carmen has no melody, and it becomes clear to me that back then the Boston critics had no effing idea what they were talking about. I don't know if things have changed much since, you migh be able to illuminate the matter.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 11:48:14 AM
Quote from: amw on May 16, 2017, 07:13:46 AM
Pjotr Iljič Čajkovskij

Talk about affectation...  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on May 16, 2017, 12:06:36 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 06:36:23 AM
Another interpretation of the Tchaikovsky Fifth:

QuoteOf the Fifth Tchaikovsky Symphony one hardly knows what to say.  It is less untamed in spirit than the composer's B-flat minor Concerto, less recklessly harsh in its polyphonic writing, less indicative of the composer's disposition to swear a theme's way through a stone wall.  In the Finale we have all the untamed fury of the Cossack, whetting itself for deeds of atrocity, against all the sterility of the Russian steppes.  The furious peroration sounds like nothing so much as a horde of demons struggling in a torrent of brandy, the music growing drunker and drunker.  Pandemonium, delirium tremens, raving, and above all, noise worse confounded!

Boston Evening Transcript, 24 Oct 1892

Seems fairly accurate. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on May 16, 2017, 01:28:38 PM
Quote from: amw on May 16, 2017, 07:13:46 AM
Pjotr Iljič Čajkovskij

Since we've decided that spelling his name in Cyrillic (the only truly accurate way, as far as phonetics go) is affected, it seems harsh to have a go at someone for spelling it in what is presumably his native orthography.  In the bilingual programme notes we get at BBC concerts in Cardiff, he's Tsieicofsci (in the Welsh half, obviously).

And why all this discussion of his symphonies?  The suites are much better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 16, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 16, 2017, 01:32:34 PM
There is nothing too extreme in music, name ANYTHING.

Everything will incredibly become monotonous or mundane if there isn't enough variety (dynamic structure) and dynamic structure often takes the extremities away if not handled very precisely, but if handled to precisely it looses it's edge, so there!
Does music have to fit your idea of 'extreme' to be enjoyable to you???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 16, 2017, 02:17:25 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 16, 2017, 02:10:45 PM
Of course not but it is something I have always been drawn too, you know; adrenaline rushes, energy, heaviness, percussiveness, stuff that is primal and elemental, takes on this raw energy. (there's also another description I can't think of)

I love Enya, folk music, soul music etc, the answer should be obvious to you.


....unless that was a rhetorical question?  ::)

Well it just seems to me you are looking for something in music which you love but no longer seems to satisfy you! Compose something like that if you like kind of thing. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 16, 2017, 04:42:29 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 16, 2017, 02:10:45 PM

I love Enya...


I got my 7-year old son into Enya, listens to her every night when he's going to bed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 17, 2017, 05:31:54 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 16, 2017, 04:52:05 PM
0:)

Hopefully not early Enya?  :o

So you're not a fan of late-Romantic Enya? You prefer her twelve-tone period?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on May 17, 2017, 07:53:50 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 16, 2017, 02:17:25 PM
Well it just seems to me you are looking for something in music which you love but no longer seems to satisfy you! Compose something like that if you like kind of thing. :)

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 16, 2017, 03:09:27 PM
That could be a possibility  :(

Sounds to me like you're trying to restore your musical virginity, and that you are waxing sentimental/nostastalgic about that first awareness and experiences of a sensationalism that hit you so strongly between the eyes, which is -- sorry to be the old fart who pops that bubble -- completely irretrievable.

Of course it is a pretty terrible, though temporary, place to be in, longing for those first spectacular sensations and impressions which were spectacular and sensational because you had never experienced them before.  I assure you it is 'a phase' and it will pass soon enough.

The proclivity for having a taste more tuned to the (more or less) sensational, the 'mind-blowing' is parallel with 'youth,' and you are 'a youth,' lol.

What shifts over time (in my experience) is an interest in what is also quietly virtuosic, subtle, restrained, and the very profound and full effect really well-made art of that sort can have.  (The time-line of first the sensational morphing to the subtle, understated and restrained is quite common in most artists from their initial works through to their late works, which should tell you something right there:-)  In effect, what you seem to be doing to yourself is setting up some expectations based upon past experience, which if you think on that for one moment is kinda limiting ;-)

Don't think of where you're at now as having lost something or that you are now missing something.  There is more to come, and what is to come that satisfies may not be in the same areas of sensation or taste you have had to this moment.

So, "Dont' worry, be happy."  Besides, you've got a ton of studies, larnin, songs in one genre and music in another to write.  Being seriously engaged in what you are doing is a kind of satisfaction very few people are lucky to find or have.  Be busy with your business, and don't worry about (for what is but a mere moment on the time line of your whole life) what seems like a loss -- because though it may seem like it now, it is not a loss at all.

O.K.  You're all fixed and set to go for quite a while now  :laugh:


Best regards.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on May 20, 2017, 10:45:00 AM
I find Janacek's Glagolitic Mass weak. I don't get why people praise it. I bought the Naxos dics of the work a few years ago after reading all the glory hallelujah for it on this forum. I expected to hear something really epic! Did I? No! I heard a mediocre at best choral work without any epic feel. It's like the second best choral work of a third-rate composer. I have revisited the work several times to hear what I have been missing, but nothing happens. The work simply doesn't resonate with my mind.  :(

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 02:23:56 AM
Inspired by the atonal thread, it is my firm opinion is that there are at 12 Stravinsky pieces at minimum that are are better than the Rite of Spring  >:D

Stravinsky is a composer I haven't explored much, but I'd say that's possible. Rite of Spring is a good work, but perhaps a bit overrated for the shock-value it had.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 20, 2017, 12:07:01 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 02:23:56 AM
Inspired by the atonal thread, it is my firm opinion is that there are at 12 Stravinsky pieces at minimum that are are better than the Rite of Spring  >:D

We had a thread of favorite Stravinsky pieces. ROS did not make my list, causing some comment. So I agree. I bet we disagree on what those 12 are though!  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on May 20, 2017, 12:29:44 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 02:23:56 AM
Inspired by the atonal thread, it is my firm opinion is that there are at 12 Stravinsky pieces at minimum that are are better than the Rite of Spring  >:D

Well, I'm going to delve deeper into unpopularity by listing them:

Symphonies of wind instruments
Les noces
Symphony of Psalms
Symphony in 3 movements
Scènes de ballet
Mass
Cantata
Oedipus Rex
Agon
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Requiem Canticles
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 20, 2017, 12:35:05 PM
Quote from: DaveF on May 20, 2017, 12:29:44 PM
Well, I'm going to delve deeper into unpopularity by listing them:

Symphonies of wind instruments
Les noces
Symphony of Psalms
Symphony in 3 movements
Scènes de ballet
Mass
Cantata
Oedipus Rex
Agon
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Requiem Canticles
Yep, about half those aren't on my list, and half of mine aren't there.  :laugh:
With Stravinsky there's an embarrassment of riches.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 20, 2017, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 02:23:56 AM
Inspired by the atonal thread, it is my firm opinion is that there are at 12 Stravinsky pieces at minimum that are are better than the Rite of Spring  >:D

It's much simpler than that, it goes...

1. Dumbarton Oaks
2. Everything else (Rite of Spring is somewhere in there)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 20, 2017, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 20, 2017, 01:44:14 PM
It's much simpler than that, it goes...

1. Dumbarton Oaks
2. Everything else (Rite of Spring is somewhere in there)

That's my top pick too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 20, 2017, 03:50:54 PM
Dumbarton Oaks is a great work but everyone knows the two best things he wrote were Agon and Movements for piano and orchestra. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 20, 2017, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 03:53:16 PM
Agon
Requiem Canticles
Song of the nightingale (or alternatively, the whole opera)
Petrushka (this is seriously like a post-modern work, it's got all the irony there combined with some vicious orchestra attacks)
Symphony for Three Orchestras
Soldiers Tale
Oedipus Rex
Variations for Huxley
Symphony of Psalms
Movements for piano and orchestra
Symphonies of wind instruments
Abraham and Issac
Renard

Orchestra attacks conductor with music stands and instruments! Conductor in critical condition with bruises, fractured and broken bones throughout their body. ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 20, 2017, 04:19:36 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 04:13:45 PM
Yes..umm....it's a umm.....violent work...... :laugh:

Well, yes, the story is driven by violence, that's true. Curiously, do you know Birtwistle's opera 'Punch and Judy'?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 20, 2017, 04:37:43 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 03:53:16 PM
Agon
Requiem Canticles
Song of the nightingale (or alternatively, the whole opera)
Petrushka (this is seriously like a post-modern work, it's got all the irony there combined with some vicious orchestra attacks)
Symphony for Three Orchestras
Soldiers Tale
Oedipus Rex
Variations for Huxley
Symphony of Psalms
Movements for piano and orchestra
Symphonies of wind instruments
Abraham and Issac
Renard

Now there's a unpopular opinion! Elliot Carter, plagiarist!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 20, 2017, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 20, 2017, 04:37:43 PM
Now there's a unpopular opinion! Elliot Carter, plagiarist!

Haha! I wonder how that got in there.....surely he meant 'three movements'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on May 20, 2017, 09:44:24 PM
"Making itself intelligible is suicide for music."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 21, 2017, 03:01:14 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on May 20, 2017, 08:55:47 PM
I don't think that's the case.

The more someone explores something, the more they realize that initial conceptions can be far from reality.

I've read in many places about people claiming that something is "too heavy", "too extreme", "too aggressive", "Too noisy", "too structure-less" et al, but the more you try to understand why it is perceived like that, the more you look at the way these sounds are dispersed (I'm not particularly talking about music I like or dislike here) and structured (however pre-meditated or not), the heaviness or extremities disappear.

More or less, to give you an example. Chaos (the crowning king or god of this kind of example) at it's most extreme, becomes inevitably order and structure. Aka, the more notes there are doing different things, the more it will feel like one thing going on and will be perceived as less going on than what actually is.

Tempo? constant face paced music (no matter how fast a tempo) will gradually feel slow.

Also, desensitization to something like screaming (I mean actually screaming your guts off, not the singing-screaming vocal style found in hardcore punk and some metal) will feel less aggressive over time (as does softly sung vocals feel less and less peaceful over time).


So maybe what I'm actually saying, is that I find it hard to find anything that shocks or surprises me anymore in that way because patterns of that sort are blatantly obvious and auditory. I'm not saying my passion or enjoyment has gone at all, though I had a rough week when I posted that original comment.  :)

Isn't this basically what Monsieur Croche was saying anyway?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on May 22, 2017, 07:56:04 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 16, 2017, 06:08:56 AM
I'm prepared to say the first 2 minutes aren't that bad. But as I should be heading for bed, I think the rest will have to go unlistened.

It gets better!

Thanks, Brian.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on May 22, 2017, 08:22:05 PM
The violin tends to sound like a male cat expelling a kidney stone.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: arpeggio on May 22, 2017, 08:33:44 PM
Please forgive me if someone else has covered this in the above posts.

I am all the time seeing what are your favorite threads.  I would rather read such threads instead of contributing to them.  One of my motives in participating in forums like this is to learn about music and composers that I am unfamiliar with.

For example from reading threads about how bad a composer Cage is I have actually discovered works by Cage that I like.

I do not see how telling everyone that my favorite composer is Mahler expands my knowledge of classical music.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on May 22, 2017, 08:46:52 PM
Quote from: arpeggio on May 22, 2017, 08:33:44 PM
Please forgive me if someone else has covered this in the above posts.

I am all the time seeing what are your favorite threads.  I would rather read such threads instead of contributing to them.  One of my motives in participating in forums like this is to learn about music and composers that I am unfamiliar with.

For example from reading threads about how bad a composer Cage is I have actually discovered works by Cage that I like.

I do not see how telling everyone that my favorite composer is Mahler expands my knowledge of classical music.

+1!  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on May 22, 2017, 10:52:09 PM
If no one contributes, no one learns anything. Besides, making a statement of preference is also granting others the opportunity to challenge it, which may well prove educational for all parties, assuming sincerity and willingness to learn constitute the MO of all involved.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on May 23, 2017, 02:00:11 AM
Pizzicato is the main piano technique, the keys are only for regulating timbre, this is why it is best as a four or more hands instrument.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 23, 2017, 02:05:48 AM
Quote from: arpeggio on May 22, 2017, 08:33:44 PM
I do not see how telling everyone that my favorite composer is Mahler expands my knowledge of classical music.

It doesn't. It expands other people's knowledge of classical music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on May 23, 2017, 02:22:37 AM
Quote from: arpeggio on May 22, 2017, 08:33:44 PM
Please forgive me if someone else has covered this in the above posts.

I am all the time seeing what are your favorite threads.  I would rather read such threads instead of contributing to them.  One of my motives in participating in forums like this is to learn about music and composers that I am unfamiliar with.

For example from reading threads about how bad a composer Cage is I have actually discovered works by Cage that I like.

I do not see how telling everyone that my favorite composer is Mahler expands my knowledge of classical music.

Hi arpeggio.

Look at it like this: if we all had that attitude there would be more or less nothing to read. 😜

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 03:20:06 AM
Music was much more fun, engaging and interesting before the advent of the concert hall and especially of the recording industry. Passively listening to music in a stiff and still environment has deprived music of its essentially social and interactive nature and has transformed the educated amateur of yore into a mere consumer of music.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 23, 2017, 03:33:44 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 03:20:06 AM
Music was much more fun, engaging and interesting before the advent of the concert hall and especially of the recording industry. Passively listening to music in a stiff and still environment has deprived music of its essentially social and interactive nature and has transformed the educated amateur of yore into a mere consumer of music.

You know, that is one of the most interesting and thought-provoking unpopular opinions I've seen in a while.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 23, 2017, 03:39:36 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 03:20:06 AM
Music was much more fun, engaging and interesting before the advent of the concert hall and especially of the recording industry.

That is Unpopular Speculations, next door  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: arpeggio on May 23, 2017, 05:02:44 AM
I have just done a lousy job of expressing myself again  :(  Sorry about that.

I did not mean that these types of threads are bad.  I was just explaining why I am personally uncomfortable making a contribution to such a thread.  Please note that I said that I like to read these types of threads.  It appears that my post is an unpopular opinion.

Anyways I do not have the expertise to explain why I like Mahler.  I have no idea why.

This reminds me of the classic professor Irwin Corey joke (He just passed away).

Question: Professor Corey, Why do you wear tennis shoes?

Response: Why do I wear tennis shoes? That's two questions.  The first is "Why?" That's a question philosophers have been pondering for centuries.  The second is do I wear tennis shoes? The answer to that question is, "Yes."

I think I will keep my other unpopular opinions to myself before I get myself into trouble with members of this forum which is one of my favorites.  I do have a horrible habit of alienating people.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 23, 2017, 05:07:55 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 03:20:06 AM
Music was much more fun, engaging and interesting before the advent of the concert hall and especially of the recording industry. Passively listening to music in a stiff and still environment has deprived music of its essentially social and interactive nature and has transformed the educated amateur of yore into a mere consumer of music.



You trying to say that making music together for fun with friends isn't a thing any more? You can't be serious. Either that or you're deluded. Difficult to tell! :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on May 23, 2017, 07:36:03 AM
Quote from: Uhor on May 23, 2017, 02:00:11 AM
Pizzicato is the main piano technique, the keys are only for regulating timbre, this is why it is best as a four or more hands instrument.

Pizzicato keyboard = Harpsichord!

Piano strings are struck, not plucked (plucked = pizz.)  The material of striking the strings is felt, where the actual strike is next to inaudible... what we hear is the string set in motion, not the strike.

I like fuller piano music, the four-hand duet, piano duo, etc.  Some old player piano rolls of some great transcriptions of orchestral music were done by one player overdubbing on the same roll, giving a wonderful full effect of a multi-hand piano arrangement :-)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on May 23, 2017, 10:54:56 AM
I was thinking on someone plucking the guts of the instrument with the fingers, which is not unheard of. It is clear I have reservations on many things.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 23, 2017, 10:55:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 03:20:06 AM
Music was much more fun, engaging and interesting before the advent of the concert hall and especially of the recording industry. Passively listening to music in a stiff and still environment has deprived music of its essentially social and interactive nature and has transformed the educated amateur of yore into a mere consumer of music.
Have you ever attended an amateur performance of, let's say,  Bruckner's Eighth, or Wozzeck . I certainly hope I never have to... ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 11:11:21 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 23, 2017, 10:55:41 AM
Have you ever attended an amateur performance of, let's say,  Bruckner's Eighth, or Wozzeck . I certainly hope I never have to... ;D

That's precisely one of my (implicit) points. When all the bonds and cooperation between composer, performer and audience are completely broken, and the latter two are mere tools at the disposal of the first, as either faithful executors or passive witnesses, the joy and the fun of musicmaking and musiclistening are gone.  Writing something even remotely similar to your examples would have been inconceivable for Haydn or Mozart, who instead wrote tons of music for educated, and quite profficient, amateurs --- a species which for centuries was the very backbone of music as a performing art, and which all but disappeared when music began to mean hundreds of professionals playing on a stage completely and ostentatiously separated from an audience which was supposed to be stiff and still and in attentive awe for ninety minutes or more. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 23, 2017, 11:21:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 11:11:21 AM
That's precisely one of my (implicit) points. When all the bonds and cooperation between composer, performer and audience are completely broken, and the latter two are mere tools at the disposal of the first, as either faithful executors or passive witnesses, the joy and the fun of musicmaking and musiclistening are gone.  Writing something even remotely similar to your examples would have been inconceivable for Haydn or Mozart, who instead wrote tons of music for educated, and quite profficient, amateurs --- a species which for centuries was the very backbone of music as a performing art, and which all but disappeared when music began to mean hundreds of professionals playing on a stage completely and ostentatiously separated from an audience which was supposed to be stiff and still and in attentive awe for ninety minutes or more. ;D
Mmmm. .. I give you Don Giovanni or Idomeneo. ..

But even beyond Mozart's time,  there was nothing "stiff" about the audience,  and a good chunk of the show and fun was in the stalls and boxes,  not onstage.  :laugh:. Only in the mid-19th century did things change  (dimmed lights,  a silent public,  etc. )....Fortunately for us  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 23, 2017, 11:21:06 AM
Mmmm. .. I give you Don Giovanni or Idomeneo. ..

Opera was indeed a different matter even back then, so fair enough (and still, arias were usually written for a specific performer, thus taking into account his or her strengths and weaknesses). Now give me something for an educated amateur by Bruckner or Berg.  :D

Quote
But even beyond Mozart's time,  there was nothing "stiff" about the audience,  and a good chunk of the show and fun was in the stalls and boxes,  not onstage.  :laugh:.

Ah, the good old days...  ;D

Quote
Only in the mid-19th century did things change  (dimmed lights,  a silent public,  etc. )....

Sounds as joyless and grim as it really is.  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 23, 2017, 11:59:24 AM
I am surprised to see Florestan agree that it was the Romantics who got it wrong. Live and learn!

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 23, 2017, 12:30:11 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
Sounds as joyless and grim as it really is.  ;D

Yeah, hearing the Cleveland or Berlin or Vienna is really a grim experience. Horrible, horrible  ::)

Really, Flor, you honestly think that listening to, say, your aunt playing the spinet and yodeling would be preferable to hearing a great professional group? Of course you don't. You're just in your normal argumentative mood. You would not give up your CDs or concert tickets for a relative or friend singing.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 23, 2017, 01:48:03 PM
So Andrei, Shakespeare and Burbage ruined theatre?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 23, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 23, 2017, 07:36:03 AM
Pizzicato keyboard = Harpsichord!

Piano strings are struck, not plucked (plucked = pizz.)  The material of striking the strings is felt, where the actual strike is next to inaudible... what we hear is the string set in motion, not the strike.

I like fuller piano music, the four-hand duet, piano duo, etc.  Some old player piano rolls of some great transcriptions of orchestral music were done by one player overdubbing on the same roll, giving a wonderful full effect of a multi-hand piano arrangement :-)
But piano pizzicato is my favourite effect!!!!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 23, 2017, 10:58:45 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 23, 2017, 01:48:03 PM
So Andrei, Shakespeare and Burbage ruined theatre?
Not to speak of the disastrous impact Rembrandt had on painting...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 12:09:27 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 23, 2017, 11:59:24 AM
I am surprised to see Florestan agree that it was the Romantics who got it wrong. Live and learn!

;D

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 23, 2017, 12:30:11 PM
Yeah, hearing the Cleveland or Berlin or Vienna is really a grim experience. Horrible, horrible  ::)

;D

Quote
Really, Flor, you honestly think that listening to, say, your aunt playing the spinet and yodeling would be preferable to hearing a great professional group? Of course you don't.

Whoever said anything about aunts, spinets and yodels? I was thinking about, say, Sylvester Paumgartner and his friends playing the Trout Quintet.

Quote
You're just in your normal argumentative mood.

The thread asks for unpopular opinions, right?

Quote
You would not give up your CDs or concert tickets for a relative or friend singing.

Depends on CD, concert, relative or friend.

But it seems that only Ken got the idea right. It's not about what we do or don't nowadays, it's about what we could have done in older times. I maintain that passively listening to recordings is less fun and engaging than making music oneself, and that the overabundance of choice and ready availability of music has fundamentally altered the way music is viewed and experienced, not always for the better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 01:19:22 AM
I mean, someone whose only dilemma when it comes to music is "which one of my 3,652 Mahler sets should I be listening to?" has ipso facto a different perception of music than someone whose chances to hear Mahler's music were one in a lifetime, and live only. For the latter, that unique instance should have been really cathartic, while for the former it's just one of the zillions opportunities to either compare and dissect, or have expectations confirmed.

Furthermore, music used to be a collaborative effort, in which composers, performers and audiences were bound by common interests and formed a genuine community. Concerts, be they chamber music or larger ensembles, were social events where Kenner and Liebhaber got together not only to play music, but also to talk about music, and other topics, related to music or not, often in an informal and relaxed setting. All this is gone and music has become a self-absorbed affair, devoid of any sense of community and sharing. Composers compose for the sake of composing, performers perform for the sake of performing while the audience is supposed to just come in time, sit still and silent, listen in awe and leave in order. Hundreds of people get together not for communing and sharing, but for wanting to be left alone: I'm willing to bet that many, if not most, concert attendees would prefer the others to suddenly disappear from the hall, so as they could enjoy the music without disturbance. God forbid that someone make the slightest noise or move while the music sounds, or --- horribile dictu --- comment upon it (all that being actually normal and natural; abnormal and unnatural is forcing oneself to be still, silent and immobile for an hour long): a hundred pair of reprimanding eyes and tens of shhhhhs put the felon back in "concert" mode.

So bottom line, of course I go to concerts and listen to recordings, but I feel and think that it's somehow a limited experience of music. There's no gain without a loss: by concerts and recordings we have certainly gained width and breadth when it comes to repertoire but I fear we have lost depth when it comes to how we perceive and consider music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 03:15:09 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 01:19:22 AM
[...] but I fear we have lost depth when it comes to how we perceive and consider music.

I'll repeat that this strikes me as a Romantic expression of speculative dread.

There is no such blanket "loss," unless you are asserting that composers (to start with) in our day perceive and consider music more shallowly than in the past.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 24, 2017, 03:20:22 AM
I enjoy Florestan's posts
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 03:21:48 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 24, 2017, 03:20:22 AM
I enjoy Florestan's posts

At first, I thought you were proposing that this as (per the thread) an Unpopular Opinion  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 03:32:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 03:15:09 AM
There is no such blanket "loss," unless you are asserting that composers (to start with) in our day perceive and consider music more shallowly than in the past.

I assert no such thing. My perspective is that of an audience member.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 03:43:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 03:32:55 AM
I assert no such thing. My perspective is that of an audience member.

That is fine, but exactly as you would resist the idea that you are like all audience members, everywhere, the Audience is not a monolith.  As Alan Arkin reproaches Peter Falk in The In Laws, "Don't underestimate the man in the street, buddy."

That's the flawed premise of all the second (and first!) -tier US orchestras who claim they need half the annual program to be Beethoven, or they won't sell tickets.  (A rhetorical exaggeration, yes.)


Audience members everywhere still have the resources (more resources, arguably) to acquire depth of perception in music.  I suppose the terrible, terrible thing about our day is, this opportunity resides in the freedom of the individual, and is not collateral to a variety of social limitations which used to be the rule.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 03:54:23 AM
I'm actually quite surprised at the reactions to Florestan's post. To me there's no doubt that the ability to passively consume music in the home has made a significant difference to our relationship with music.

Whether it's all to the worse or the better, I'm not sure, and that's why I found the remark thought-provoking. But I can well understand the view that music offered more when it was an active pursuit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 04:00:21 AM
I should say it is neither all to the worse, nor all to the better.  But probably I have yammered enough.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 04:11:40 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 03:54:23 AM
I'm actually quite surprised at the reactions to Florestan's post. To me there's no doubt that the ability to passively consume music in the home has made a significant difference to our relationship with music.

Whether it's all to the worse or the better, I'm not sure, and that's why I found the remark thought-provoking. But I can well understand the view that music offered more when it was an active pursuit.

Thanks.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 04:00:21 AM
I should say it is neither all to the worse, nor all to the better.

I agree, and I alluded to this indeterminacy myself. I just dissent from meliorism.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 24, 2017, 04:36:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 03:21:48 AM
At first, I thought you were proposing that this as (per the thread) an Unpopular Opinion  0:)
Take it however way you will
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 04:56:42 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 24, 2017, 04:36:12 AM
Take it however way you will

Why, I take it simply as, you enjoy Andrei's particapation. So do I.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 04:58:18 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 03:54:23 AM
I'm actually quite surprised at the reactions to Florestan's post. To me there's no doubt that the ability to passively consume music in the home has made a significant difference to our relationship with music.

Whether it's all to the worse or the better, I'm not sure, and that's why I found the remark thought-provoking. But I can well understand the view that music offered more when it was an active pursuit.

How do you mean was?   8)

Actually, I'll yammer just a bit more, in case my response is part of what seems puzzling.

Andrei's suggestion is not an idea new to my ears (I'm not saying it is not thought-provoking).  Apart from what strikes me as unprofitable (in a spiritual sense) longing for a different social milieu (liberally endued with a nostalgic haze) – talking about the idea as it has more than once come in across the transom, not making Andrei responsible for all this – this suggestion appears to me as a kind of companion piece to . . .

. . . at regular intervals we see (from celebrity bloviators like Lebrecht, among others) someone wringing his hands in print or pixels over The Death of Classical Music.  I finished a new arrangement for voice and piano (with optional flute or violin obbligato) three days ago, so The Death of Classical Music is not any part of my experience, and I have to wonder why those people need, so deeply, to allege such a dire cultural catastrophe.

I make music, regularly, and in the present.  So I mean our dear Andrei no ill, but you understand why I do not much indulge the doomsayers and the nostalgists.  If others wish to indulge them, that's their time, energies, and bag, and I wish them joy of it.

There:  Now I have done yammering  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 04:58:55 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 04:11:40 AM
I agree, and I alluded to this indeterminacy myself. I just dissent from meliorism.

Very well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 24, 2017, 05:10:24 AM
I will also chime in in support of Andrei, on a different point. He does make a bit of a straw man about all classical concerts being stuffy and dark and user-hostile when a huge number of performers and orchestras are trying to change that. But I agree with him that they can change that stuffiness and that formality without taking away the sense of wonder, or harming our ability to hear & enjoy.

One of the coolest concerts I've been to in the last year was when two Dallas Symphony violinists (one the concertmaster) presented a set of violin duos by Handel, Mozart, and Halvorsen...inside a cocktail bar...for free. Let me tell you, the bar was so full it was barely possible to move, everyone was in their 20s and 30s, we were all drinking wonderful things, and we all listened in respectful silence (no chiming phones), and everyone loved it!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 24, 2017, 05:31:39 AM
The supposed "stuffiness" of the concert hall has nothing to do with the easy technical reproduction and omnipresence of recorded music, though. There are about 100 years or so between these two phenomena: the bourgeois concert being established in the 1830s and recorded music becoming a mass phenomenon around/after WW II. 
I think that the opposite could be true: Because we are so used to background music from records, radio etc. and to casual listening in our underwear ;) we find it "stuffy" to dress up and put the music on "center stage" in a classical concert.
One should keep in mind that the stuffy mores of the classical concert evolved precisely because guys like Beethoven threw tantrums when people kept talking through their playing, or more generally when music evolved that demanded the full attention of the listener so musicians and devoted listeners demanded an environment where one could focus on the music without distractions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 05:34:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 04:58:18 AM
I make music, regularly, and in the present.

Yes, you do. But surely you are aware that the proportion of people who make music regularly is vastly lower than it once was. Your own life isn't evidence of a popular trend. Pointing to oneself as an individual and declaring that you regularly ingest cat's milk would not make it a common activity.

And as far as I'm concerned this has nothing to do with "the death of classical music" or any such thing. The genre of music matters little. Whatever type of music one is talking about, people used to make a lot more music themselves because it was by far the simplest method of hearing music. Nowadays the simplest method is to spend 10 seconds typing a search term into Youtube.

In terms of what I've been investigating recently, nothing illustrates this better than choral music. It seems to have been pretty ubiquitous in a large chunk of the 19th century. Certainly, a lot of major composers produced it. And they did it because singing in choirs was one of THE most common ways that people participated in making music (above all it was cheap), so the demand for new songs to sing was high. But recordings now are uncommon compared to something like orchestral music, and the output has a far lower perceived status. Joining choirs is much rarer, especially for adults. People just don't sing in that way in large numbers. They most likely sing along to professional performances of popular music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 24, 2017, 05:50:47 AM
You might be correct about the trends but I think you underestimate how many laypeople sing in church or other choirs in countries with strong traditions of such choral singing, particularly parts of Britain, Germany and Scandinavia (but probably elsewhere as well, it's just that I am pretty sure about these).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 05:51:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 24, 2017, 05:10:24 AM
One of the coolest concerts I've been to in the last year was when two Dallas Symphony violinists (one the concertmaster) presented a set of violin duos by Handel, Mozart, and Halvorsen...inside a cocktail bar...for free. Let me tell you, the bar was so full it was barely possible to move, everyone was in their 20s and 30s, we were all drinking wonderful things, and we all listened in respectful silence (no chiming phones), and everyone loved it!

That is already a different quality of experience than an utter waste of the music which was a "Cabaret" event as part of some three-day new music festival in Buffalo, my final year at UB.  The acoustics were lousy, and the patrons were not there for the musical event (so, some mismanagement/miscommunication . . . sort of iconic for Buffalo, really).  My worst experience as either performer or composer in my life.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 05:55:20 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 24, 2017, 05:50:47 AM
You might be correct about the trends but I think you underestimate how many laypeople sing in church or other choirs in countries with strong traditions of such choral singing, particularly parts of Britain, Germany and Scandinavia (but probably elsewhere as well, it's just that I am pretty sure about these).

Yes, I'm aware it's remained stronger in some parts of the world than others. But I wouldn't cite church as a great example, given the way church attendances are falling. It's true that church is one of the few social settings where people frequently sing, but it's less and less true that people are turning up to church beyond weddings, funerals and Christmas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 06:07:02 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 05:34:31 AM
Yes, you do. But surely you are aware that the proportion of people who make music regularly is vastly lower than it once was. Your own life isn't evidence of a popular trend. Pointing to oneself as an individual and declaring that you regularly ingest cat's milk would not make it a common activity.

And as far as I'm concerned this has nothing to do with "the death of classical music" or any such thing. The genre of music matters little. Whatever type of music one is talking about, people used to make a lot more music themselves because it was by far the simplest method of hearing music. Nowadays the simplest method is to spend 10 seconds typing a search term into Youtube.

In terms of what I've been investigating recently, nothing illustrates this better than choral music. It seems to have been pretty ubiquitous in a large chunk of the 19th century. Certainly, a lot of major composers produced it. And they did it because singing in choirs was one of THE most common ways that people participated in making music (above all it was cheap), so the demand for new songs to sing was high. But recordings now are uncommon compared to something like orchestral music, and the output has a far lower perceived status. Joining choirs is much rarer, especially for adults. People just don't sing in that way in large numbers. They most likely sing along to professional performances of popular music.

To be sure, I do not represent myself as the norm  ;)

I don't deny that things have changed and are changing;  I have been either a church chorister or church music director for most of my life, so I have been a close observer of the great changes in that corner of the musical world.  (There was once a flourishing organ-building industry in New England, too;  it was terribly symbolic when the New England Conservatory chloroformed the organ department.)  There remain many opportunities for people who want to sing as volunteers in choruses, in the Boston area, at least;  but it is not the staple of practically everyone's week, which it was at the turn of the 20th century.

I see the change.  I only question the certainty of what the changes "mean."  And I have my musical work.

And, no, my behavior is not normative  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 24, 2017, 06:08:08 AM
My exception with our dear Florestan's position is that yes, of course domestic, amateur music-making is (proportionately) less widespread nowadays than it was in the mid-18th century (even if the proportion of households that today can own (or, actually, do own) a piano is infinetly higher than that of households that could afford a harpsichord then). But if we look at the art of music as a whole, music of extraordinary quality that in no way whatsoever is suitable to that domestic setting (the examples are too many and too obvious to be even mentioned) is avaiable to the masses thanks to the 2stiff" concert hall or opera house, the LP, the CD, YouTube, Spotify, etc., etc.

Or does anyone seriously believe that a "communal" performance of Tristan und Isolde is feasible and worth pursuing?

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 06:10:30 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 05:55:20 AM
Yes, I'm aware it's remained stronger in some parts of the world than others. But I wouldn't cite church as a great example, given the way church attendances are falling. It's true that church is one of the few social settings where people frequently sing, but it's less and less true that people are turning up to church beyond weddings, funerals and Christmas.

There is the downstream effect of US public school choral programs shrinking, either in number or size, or in musical vision.  American Idol is a poor model here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 06:17:02 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 24, 2017, 06:08:08 AM
My exception with our dear Florestan's position is that yes, of course domestic, amateur music-making is (proportionately) less widespread nowadays than it was in the mid-18th century (even if the proportion of households that today can own (or, actually, do own) a piano is infinetly higher than that of households that could afford a harpsichord then). But if we look at the art of music as a whole, music of extraordinary quality that in no way whatsoever is suitable to that domestic setting (the examples are too many and too obvious to be even mentioned) is avaiable to the masses thanks to the 2stiff" concert hall or opera house, the LP, the CD, YouTube, Spotify, etc., etc.

Or does anyone seriously believe that a "communal" performance of Tristan und Isolde is feasible and worth pursuing?

I'm pretty sure that Florestan made that exact point: the nature of the music has changed as the nature of the available musicians has changed.

The question is whether sitting in a seat for Tristan und Isolde is a better experience than making music with your friends and family. Suggesting that it would be the same music rather misses the point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on May 24, 2017, 06:35:52 AM
The main thing I've noticed about choirs these days is no tenors.

To extrapolate seriously from that, though—choral singing these days, particularly amateur choral singing, is a pretty female-dominated field. At the time when lots of major 19th century composers were writing choral music, the reverse was true; it was male-dominated, with heaps of men's choirs acting as social clubs and such across European capitals. It seems like for whatever reason, at some point, women became much more interested in choral singing, and men lost much of their interest in doing so—I have no idea in what order. In any case though, once men stopped singing in choirs so much, the activity lost most of its prestige, something that seems to happen to a surprisingly large number of fields (e.g. the social sciences). But there are still a lot of amateur choirs around—my city has a quite sizeable number—and as far as I know, almost all of them struggle to find tenors. The exception being ones based in Otahuhu/Manukau/Otara/other areas with large Pacific populations, where singing is much more culturally important and part of education from an early age.

Thus endeth the dissertation.

I do sometimes wonder what our musical culture would look like if communal music-making was the norm and concert performances the exception, rather than the other way round. Most likely very little of the music we listen to now would have ever been composed, but I don't think we'd have wanted it, anyway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 24, 2017, 06:37:01 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 06:17:02 AM
The question is whether sitting in a seat for Tristan und Isolde is a better experience than making music with your friends and family.
No problem there, as the answer is soooo easy: YES!

And yes, I have sung in a chorus in my youth (not a church choir, but an amateur group that perfomed Bach cantatas, Vivaldi's Gloria, that kind of thing--with a professional orchestra), and I have played the piano--poorly, but enough to tackle some Ravel, some Busoni, some preludes from DSCH's op. 87). But the musical "high points" of my life were not those, but rather seeing Parsifal in Bayreuth, seeing Boulez conduct his Répons, that kind of thing...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 06:38:01 AM
Quote from: amw on May 24, 2017, 06:35:52 AM
The main thing I've noticed about choirs these days is no tenors.

Generally true.  My church choir, though . . . I have three tenors, and no bass.  Unless I sing bass while I am directing.  Which I do, rather frequently.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 06:38:40 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 24, 2017, 06:37:01 AM
No problem there, as the answer is soooo easy: YES!

I almost replied, The answer is easy: no  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 24, 2017, 06:41:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 06:38:40 AM
I almost replied, The answer is easy: no  0:)
But your music-making, Karl, is very different (vastly superior, that is) from mine... ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 06:48:52 AM
Playing music can be better than sex.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 24, 2017, 06:49:41 AM
It's unseemly, all this agreement on what is supposed to be an unpopular opinion. Talk about derailing a thread!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 24, 2017, 06:51:12 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 24, 2017, 06:49:41 AM
It's unseemly, all this agreement on what is supposed to be an unpopular opinion. Talk about derailing a thread!
Lock 'em all up!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 24, 2017, 06:51:41 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 06:48:52 AM
Playing music can be better than sex.

Well I'm with Andrei here. Sex is better when it's done by amateurs on their own, rather than by professionals in a large concert hall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 07:04:16 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 06:48:52 AM
Playing music can be better than sex.

It is certainly perfectly acceptable socially to play music with many, many more people.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 09:09:25 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 24, 2017, 06:17:02 AM
I'm pretty sure that Florestan made that exact point: the nature of the music has changed as the nature of the available musicians has changed.

Yes, I already made that point.

Quote
The question is whether sitting in a seat for Tristan und Isolde is a better experience than making music with your friends and family. Suggesting that it would be the same music rather misses the point.

Precisely. That Tristan und Isolde is far beyond the reach of educated amateurs is besides the point. More to the point is mature Wagner's not writing anything suitable for them. Even more to the point is Wagner's essential contribution to turning music into some sort of religion, opera houses into some sort of temples and composers into some sort of high priests, if not directly gods.

Quote from: ritter on May 24, 2017, 06:37:01 AM
No problem there, as the answer is soooo easy: YES!

The answer for me is very easy, too. I'd take attending, and participating in, an amateur performance of some Lieder, some choral works and some chamber music over sitting through Tristan und Isolde any day and night, without the slightest second thought.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on May 24, 2017, 09:59:57 AM
One area where there is still an abundance of amateur music-making is wind band music.  There's plenty of it written for that level, and plenty of bands around the country to play it.  Not Berg, but Schoenberg did write a piece intended for school bands (although it was considered too difficult in the 40s, there are plenty of groups who have played it now).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 10:33:48 AM
You mean a piece other than a band scoring of the Op.31 Variations?  I am drawing a blank.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 24, 2017, 10:57:09 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 24, 2017, 09:59:57 AM
One area where there is still an abundance of amateur music-making is wind band music.  There's plenty of it written for that level, and plenty of bands around the country to play it. 

Yes that's true. And brass bands. My in laws are very much part of that. Here's their band in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PhcF5uDfYs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PhcF5uDfYs)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on May 24, 2017, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 10:33:48 AM
You mean a piece other than a band scoring of the Op.31 Variations?  I am drawing a blank.

The Theme and Variations Op. 43a was written for wind band (Op. 43b is an arrangement for conventional orchestra).  The Variations for Orchestra Op. 31 is a different piece entirely.  Only one of the two uses a key signature...

https://www.youtube.com/v/pl1oL-ybIPU

Granted, it's in the bottom tier of Schoenberg's works, but it was a sincere attempt on his part.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 12:57:00 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 24, 2017, 11:09:35 AM
The Theme and Variations Op. 43a was written for wind band (Op. 43b is an arrangement for conventional orchestra).  The Variations for Orchestra Op. 31 is a different piece entirely.  Only one of the two uses a key signature...

https://www.youtube.com/v/pl1oL-ybIPU

Granted, it's in the bottom tier of Schoenberg's works, but it was a sincere attempt on his part.

Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 24, 2017, 06:51:41 AM
Well I'm with Andrei here. Sex is better when it's done by amateurs on their own, rather than by professionals in a large concert hall.

A concert hall is clearly not an appropriate venue. You need somewhere focused on visual appeal for the DVD release.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 03:04:03 PM
Ugh. I don't mix sex and music. The sex is far too distracting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 06:09:49 AM
The Vienna New Year Concert's setting is ridiculous. To listen to music which was specifically composed for dancing, entertainment and merriment in the manner and with the etiquette one listens to a Bruckner symphony is hilariously incongruous. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if, had the Strausses come back to life, they'd rather attend an André Rieu show than the Vienna New Year Concert.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 25, 2017, 06:22:39 AM
Which explains a great deal about why I never listen to the Strausses.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 06:30:18 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 25, 2017, 06:22:39 AM
Which explains a great deal about why I never listen to the Strausses.

Then you miss some of the catchiest tunes ever written, clothed in one of the brilliantest orchestration ever imagined.   :(

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 06:41:43 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 06:09:49 AM
The Vienna New Year Concert's setting is ridiculous. To listen to music which was specifically composed for dancing, entertainment and merriment in the manner and with the etiquette one listens to a Bruckner symphony is hilariously incongruous. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if, had the Strausses come back to life, they'd rather attend an André Rieu show than the Vienna New Year Concert.
Speaking of New Yrs Concert, how about this monstrosity here:

23 cds...

[asin]B00UOFCIKQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 06:41:43 AM
Speaking of New Yrs Concert, how about this monstrosity here:

23 cds...

[asin]B00UOFCIKQ[/asin]

I imagine our Ilaria would be tempted thereby.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 25, 2017, 06:49:18 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 06:41:43 AM
Speaking of New Yrs Concert, how about this monstrosity here:

23 cds...

[asin]B00UOFCIKQ[/asin]
What I can't understand is whose complete works are included in that box. Next up: "The Salzburg Festival: the Complete Works"?  ::)  ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 06:49:46 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 06:41:43 AM
Speaking of New Yrs Concert, how about this monstrosity here:

23 cds...

[asin]B00UOFCIKQ[/asin]

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
I imagine our Ilaria would be tempted thereby.

I am tempted, too*. The music is fabulous, it's the environment in which it is performed that I object to.

*Although, already having the complete orchestral works of Johann Strauss I, Johann Strauss II and Josef Strauss, I think I'll pass it eventually.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 06:53:16 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 25, 2017, 06:49:18 AM
What I can't understand is whose complete works are included in that box. Next up: "The Salzburg Festival: the Complete Works"?  ::)  ???

Le Festival de Bayreuth: Ses enregistrements studio.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 07:01:09 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 25, 2017, 06:49:18 AM
What I can't understand is whose complete works are included in that box. Next up: "The Salzburg Festival: the Complete Works"?  ::)  ???
It says:

Contains all 319 works ever performed at the concert over its 75-year history


So every work that has ever been performed at the NY Concert since inception is here I suppose. 319 works in 75 yrs doesn't sound like a whole lot.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 07:07:54 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 07:01:09 AM
It says:

Contains all 319 works ever performed at the concert over its 75-year history


So every work that has ever been performed at the NY Concert since inception is here I suppose. 319 works in 75 yrs doesn't sound like a whole lot.

319 is less than the complete opus-numbered works of Johann Strauss II.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 07:11:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 07:07:54 AM
319 is less than the complete opus-numbered works of Johann Strauss II.  :)
The only thing you can infer is that from year to year they perform more or less the same repertoire.

I do rather enjoy Harnoncourt's Invitation to the Dance...The audience started clapping before the final cello solo. You would think the Viennese know this piece inside out. And Harnoncourt teases them with a big pause right before the cello solo.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2017, 07:12:24 AM
One of the downsides of ritual.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 25, 2017, 09:12:12 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 06:49:46 AM
it's the environment in which it is performed that I object to.


That is a fugly room.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2017, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2017, 07:01:09 AM
It says:

Contains all 319 works ever performed at the concert over its 75-year history


So every work that has ever been performed at the NY Concert since inception is here I suppose. 319 works in 75 yrs doesn't sound like a whole lot.

Going by the yearly installments I have, the concert is heavy on works performed in the previous years.   I think it's only in the last few years that they've made an effort to include "new" stuff.  But also remember that a work performed once in a decade will be, if not the same as new, at least fresh sounding to the ears of most of the concertgoers.  So they can program the concert with few warhorses.  Of course, the two perennial warhorses are always performed at the end.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 09:30:37 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 25, 2017, 09:20:30 AM
Going by the yearly installments I have, the concert is heavy on works performed in the previous years.   I think it's only in the last few years that they've made an effort to include "new" stuff.  But also remember that a work performed once in a decade will be, if not the same as new, at least fresh sounding to the ears of most of the concertgoers.  So they can program the concert with few warhorses.  Of course, the two perennial warhorses are always performed at the end.

Music itself aside, I see the NYC as the epitome of snobbery and an abominable Brucknerization of what used to be popular, fun, unpretentious and unbuttoned musical entertainment. As I said, Andre Rieu has much more of the original Strauss spirit than the MYC has --- if only for conducting with the bow.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2017, 09:36:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 09:30:37 AM
Music itself aside, I see the NYC as the epitome of snobbery and an abominable Brucknerization of what used to be popular, fun, unpretentious and unbuttoned musical entertainment.

I was about to contest that in a long, fact-heavy paragraph, but then I realized that by NYC you did not mean New York City.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2017, 09:36:16 AM
I was about to contest that in a long, fact-heavy paragraph, but then I realized that by NYC you did not mean New York City.

;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 25, 2017, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 06:30:18 AM
Then you miss some of the catchiest tunes ever written, clothed in one of the brilliantest orchestration ever imagined.   :(

That's what Andre's marketing people say, I'm sure.

Seriously, I don't go to this style of music if I want "catchy".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 25, 2017, 11:42:07 AM
UNPOPULAR OPINION

I really like Johann Strauss Jr.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 25, 2017, 11:46:34 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2017, 11:42:07 AM
UNPOPULAR OPINION

I really like Johann Strauss Jr.

I, too, but I have an even more unpopular one: I like Johann Strauss Sr. better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 25, 2017, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2017, 11:42:07 AM
UNPOPULAR OPINION

I really like Johann Strauss Jr.
That's not just unpopular. It's practically illegal.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 25, 2017, 12:06:58 PM
Some of Josef's (who actually was a civil engineer in his day job (and also invented a street-cleaning machine) before he was drafted into the family music business) are probably my favorites: Aquarellen, Dynamiden, Sphärenklänge, Dorfschwalben.
I certainly think that Johann junior and Josef are clearly superior to Johann senior and Lanner. These older composers don't deserve the obscurity they have been put into by the younger ones and they have written charming pieces but for the grand scale "symphonic" waltzes there is no contest, the youngsters are better.

I agree that the the New Year's concert is somewhat ridiculous but it has given us some brilliant interpretations of Strauss' music we might not have had otherwise.

As for the clapping into Weber's "Invitation": This shows that most of the audience are rich ignorants and also that that Weber waltz (basically the father of all concert waltzes) is not that well known in Austria (they are proud of their parochialism there sometimes, I believe).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2017, 12:16:59 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2017, 11:42:07 AM
UNPOPULAR OPINION

I really like Johann Strauss Jr.

Not unpopular with me...or Lisztianwagner, sadly silent for over a year now.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on May 25, 2017, 12:33:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2017, 12:16:59 PM
Not unpopular with me...or Lisztianwagner, sadly silent for over a year now.

Sarge
I've never cared for the Strauss family et al, or the New Year's Concert, but would wish to see Ilaria back here on GMG...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 25, 2017, 12:36:33 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 25, 2017, 12:06:58 PM
I agree that the the New Year's concert is somewhat ridiculous but it has given us some brilliant interpretations of Strauss' music we might not have had otherwise.
The two Carlos Kleiber albums are top of my list.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on May 25, 2017, 02:30:38 PM
Unpopular opinion: I have no problem with the accordion, or any variation thereof. (Particularly in contemporary music.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 25, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: amw on May 25, 2017, 02:30:38 PM
Unpopular opinion: I have no problem with the accordion, or any variation thereof. (Particularly in contemporary music.)

I was quite serious when I said we live in the golden age of the accordion.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri_bNZyMd30 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri_bNZyMd30)

And this is one of my favourite videos on YouTube : an orchestra of kids with accordions playing contemporary classical music:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LAv8kVhR4U (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LAv8kVhR4U)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 25, 2017, 05:29:20 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 25, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
I was quite serious when I said we live in the golden age of the accordion.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri_bNZyMd30 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri_bNZyMd30)


Fantastic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 25, 2017, 06:39:37 PM
Another accordion fan here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 25, 2017, 07:46:17 PM
The young composer Benjamin de Murashkin has made me into a developing accordion fan.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2017, 03:52:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2017, 11:42:07 AM
UNPOPULAR OPINION

I really like Johann Strauss Jr.

Opinion may be divided, but I cannot see this as an unpopular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2017, 04:41:25 AM
Unpopular Purchase.

I own an accordion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on May 26, 2017, 04:47:31 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2017, 04:41:25 AM
Unpopular Purchase.

I own an accordion.
My dad owns two.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2017, 04:49:08 AM
Thread Duty:

Two Accordions, No Waiting
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 26, 2017, 05:00:38 AM
One of the best concerts I attended was with Richard Galliano and his band. Fantastic!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 26, 2017, 11:43:02 AM
Just intonation accordion is the best, played by Pauline Oliveros of course. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on May 26, 2017, 12:32:23 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2017, 05:00:38 AM
One of the best concerts I attended was with Richard Galliano and his band. Fantastic!
Depends on the repertoire.  His Piazzola recordings are fantastic.  His jazz recordings are also excellent. I am less convinced by his french repertoire and his crossover from classical music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on May 26, 2017, 08:34:15 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 26, 2017, 11:43:02 AM
Just intonation accordion is the best, played by Pauline Oliveros of course. :)
I prefer mutated sea shanties on an accordion of indeterminate tuning, but Oliveros is fine too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2017, 05:49:05 AM
Quote from: North Star on May 26, 2017, 04:47:31 AM
My dad owns two.

He's twice the man I am.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on May 29, 2017, 03:55:39 AM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 29, 2017, 03:30:53 AM
Another jive I have with "Post"-modernism:

Why does the Futurist movement always get swept under the carpet when it comes to the chronological evolution of modernism to "post"-modernism? Is it that 2nd Viennese and the Russians are easier to discuss? Is it an aesthetic bias against the Futurists?

You mean the admiration of violence and association with fascism?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on May 29, 2017, 03:26:05 PM
It's not innovation alone what counts, it's the quality/style and marketing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 29, 2017, 04:58:40 PM
James is usually right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 29, 2017, 07:40:28 PM
I'm usually calm and relaxed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2017, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 29, 2017, 07:40:28 PM
I'm usually calm and relaxed.

So am I in real life. And I abhor being involved in quarels, fights and conflicts. Really, I mean it.

It must be something with this darn internet that sometimes (usually?) turns me into an argumentative smartass.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 30, 2017, 12:16:16 PM
Geez. I thought I had a clear thread-winner with my James post. But orfeo and Florestan have smoked me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 30, 2017, 02:26:56 PM
Ha. MY opinion is so unpopular, even I don't hold it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 30, 2017, 03:36:12 PM
It's a race to the bottom.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 30, 2017, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 30, 2017, 03:13:02 PM
I have shit taste in music  >:D

You don't say...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 30, 2017, 05:17:02 PM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 30, 2017, 03:13:02 PM
I have shit taste in music

This is the UNpopular opinion thread!

>:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 30, 2017, 06:13:16 PM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 30, 2017, 04:43:46 PM
I'm not sure it belongs in this thread as it's not a public consensus opinion but anyway, I was thinking about this on the bus back from my lecture this morning:

There isn't much pre-20th century music that is deeply emotionally, sentimentally or nostalgically significant to me, there just isn't (there is a little early music + some late romantic but that is only it).

*shrug*

This is true of a lot of people, although most of them don't hang out on classical music forums.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on May 30, 2017, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 30, 2017, 04:43:46 PM
I'm not sure it belongs in this thread as it's not a public consensus opinion but anyway, I was thinking about this on the bus back from my lecture this morning:

There isn't much pre-20th century music that is deeply emotionally, sentimentally or nostalgically significant to me, there just isn't (there is a little early music + some late romantic but that is only it).

You are young. Don't be surprised if, twenty or thirty years from now, your view of 18th and 19th century music has changed completely.

Or maybe not. These things are deeply personal, and vary enormously from person to person.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 30, 2017, 07:04:08 PM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 30, 2017, 06:56:30 PM
But 20th century classical/western "art"-music? what about those people? do they have anywhere to hang and chill?  :(
Here. You won't be turfed out for preferring Xenakis to Schubert. Damned for all eternity perhaps, but not turfed out.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 30, 2017, 09:47:47 PM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 30, 2017, 06:56:30 PM
But 20th century classical/western "art"-music? what about those people? do they have anywhere to hang and chill?  :(

The internet has places to hang out for people who like to dress up as giant furry animals. I'm sure it can manage fans of 20th Century art music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 30, 2017, 11:29:59 PM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 30, 2017, 06:55:27 PM
From what I understand, people usually return to the music of their formative years by their middle age (which is usually what they're most nostalgic and sentimental about). For a large majority of older classical fans, it tends to be the music of composers from those centuries (often being stereotypically one of the "three B's").
Most classical listeners do not "return" to the music of their teenage years. Rather, they started listening to classical in these years and never stopped listening to classical since then. Because classical encompasses a lot of different music they might listen to rather different stuff in their 50s than in their late teens, or they might not.

But this is a very different situation from browsing one's highschool yearbooks and listening to the music you heard on you first date or graduation party or whatever and waxing nostalgic.
Regardless of genre, I believe that quite a few people largely stick to or at least remain very fond of the music they heard in their teens and twenties. So here one also has to distinguish between nostalgia and having one's tastes formed in that time.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 31, 2017, 05:50:10 AM
Quote from: neilasuolubaftahT on May 31, 2017, 02:04:52 AM
I have a track record of having a certain disdain for composers like Mozart for instance but but I have quite a few Wolfgang cds in my collection despite that, for example.

And this means what? Do you want to get credit for this?

You can collect whatever CDs you like. If you choose to collect music that you don't actually like much, well it's your money to waste but I wouldn't applaud you for it. If it's music that you do like, then your "certain disdain" is a front.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on May 31, 2017, 06:11:23 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 31, 2017, 05:50:10 AM
And this means what? Do you want to get credit for this?

You can collect whatever CDs you like. If you choose to collect music that you don't actually like much, well it's your money to waste but I wouldn't applaud you for it. If it's music that you do like, then your "certain disdain" is a front.

That seems harsh. Years ago I got rid of some CDs that I now wish I had kept, because my appreciation of the music eventually grew.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on May 31, 2017, 06:14:59 AM
I'm with Pat - there's music I'm just now discovering that I love, that has been in my collection for years. (Maybe because the coupling was good, or because it was in a Big Box, or because I figured eventually I'd like it.) It's like making an investment - except that you can only lose some time, not more money.

Perhaps the biggest example is Bach. I bought a bunch starting out because he's so famous, and then only really liked Brandenburg No. 3. Thought the rest was dry and rote. Now that I've changed my mind, it's nice to have a bunch of good Bach around!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 31, 2017, 06:18:14 AM
Quote from: Pat B on May 31, 2017, 06:11:23 AM
That seems harsh. Years ago I got rid of some CDs that I now wish I had kept, because my appreciation of the music eventually grew.

But that doesn't seem to be what is being said here. It's not expressed as a past disdain for Mozart. Nor is it expressed as having bought Mozart CDs in the past but now having a disdain for Mozart.

I'm sure it's possible for it to be cleared up, but right now what I'm reading is two present-tense statements: I express disdain for Mozart, and/but I own Mozart CDs.

I don't know if this is a misguided attempt to demonstrate a lack of bias, because I've witnessed many examples of people having learned that "discrimination is bad" and then applying that idea indiscriminately to categories it was never meant to be applied to.  Discrimination is bad when it's applied to for no reason, such as choosing between people based on skin colour or gender when the relevant consideration is employable skills. But when it comes to one's own music collection, one's own personal and subjective decisions are the only criteria.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on May 31, 2017, 06:41:32 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 31, 2017, 06:18:14 AM
But that doesn't seem to be what is being said here. It's not expressed as a past disdain for Mozart. Nor is it expressed as having bought Mozart CDs in the past but now having a disdain for Mozart.

I'm sure it's possible for it to be cleared up, but right now what I'm reading is two present-tense statements: I express disdain for Mozart, and/but I own Mozart CDs.

My read was that Neila was accounting for the possibility that he might not disdain Mozart in the future.

As for money, it's possible that he paid little or nothing for those CDs, and/or that he would get little or nothing for culling them.

His post just didn't strike me as controversial, or warranting a demand for further explanation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 31, 2017, 06:59:35 AM
Quote from: Pat B on May 31, 2017, 06:41:32 AM
My read was that Neila was accounting for the possibility that he might not disdain Mozart in the future.

Which, if the disdain is real, baffles me utterly as a purchasing decision.

I might well buy music that I'm not totally certain I like, not least if I don't know it well, but it at least has to be something that interests me.*** I am simply mystified by the proposition that one would collect something one has a negative attitude towards.

But I would much prefer to hear from the original author, not the interpretation of others.


***For example, this was part of my motivation with Per Nørgård's symphonies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 31, 2017, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 31, 2017, 06:59:35 AM
Which, if the disdain is real, baffles me utterly as a purchasing decision.

I might well buy music that I'm not totally certain I like, not least if I don't know it well, but it at least has to be something that interests me.*** I am simply mystified by the proposition that one would collect something one has a negative attitude towards.

But I would much prefer to hear from the original author, not the interpretation of others.


***For example, this was part of my motivation with Per Nørgård's symphonies.

Guys. I think Alien meant, "look it's not as if I haven't listened to the music. I gave it what I think is a fair shot, I bought some and listened a few times. I dislike it."
That's reasonable isn't it?
It's even sensible if you substitute Webern for Mozart :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2017, 11:18:43 AM


Quote from: ørfeo on May 30, 2017, 09:47:47 PM
The internet has places to hang out for people who like to dress up as giant furry animals.

I thought I recognized you over there.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on May 31, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 31, 2017, 06:59:35 AM
Which, if the disdain is real, baffles me utterly as a purchasing decision.

I might well buy music that I'm not totally certain I like, not least if I don't know it well, but it at least has to be something that interests me.*** I am simply mystified by the proposition that one would collect something one has a negative attitude towards.

But I would much prefer to hear from the original author, not the interpretation of others.

There are any number of uninteresting possible explanations for why he might have gotten them initially. Maybe they were in box sets that he bought for other contents. Maybe he received them as gifts. Maybe he bought them in support of his studies. Maybe he bought them before spotify. Maybe he believed he would want them in the future. Maybe he liked Mozart then more than he does now. Or maybe he'll have some explanation that is interesting.

I don't object to your curiosity. I just really didn't like the hostility in your initial response.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 31, 2017, 11:41:18 AM
Quote from: Pat B on May 31, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
I just really didn't like the hostility in your initial response.

I'm puzzled, too. He's usually calm and relaxed.  >:D :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on May 31, 2017, 01:11:09 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 31, 2017, 11:41:18 AM
I'm puzzled, too. He's usually calm and relaxed.  >:D :P
Yes I would agree he's really the second calmest guy here!

:laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on May 31, 2017, 08:07:57 PM
There is rarely enough silence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on May 31, 2017, 10:44:18 PM
.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 12:01:41 AM
Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 05:53:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 12:01:41 AM
Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.

Why is it controversial? He's right.
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 02, 2017, 06:09:50 AM
I am content to be a mere musician, I suppose. Liberace was, and André Rieu is, no mere musician, to be certain.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 02, 2017, 06:13:10 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 05:53:16 AM
Why is it controversial? He's right.

One might see in that quote a bit of self promotion from the man who invented the genre of the tone poem.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 02, 2017, 06:16:40 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 05:53:16 AM
Why is it controversial? He's right.
There was once a raging debate about pure music vs program music. If the "tone poet" is a composer of tone poems rather than say the Eroica symphony, then it's a bit controversial (and wrong!).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 02, 2017, 06:26:31 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 12:01:41 AM
Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.

Yeah. Turns out Liszt's soul was bombastic and a bit repetitive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 10:44:48 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 02, 2017, 06:16:40 AM
If the "tone poet" is a composer of tone poems rather than say the Eroica symphony, then it's a bit controversial (and wrong!).

The same man who wrote the Eroica wrote also the Pastoral. And Coriolan. And Egmont. And King Stephan. And Wellington's Victory. Just saying.

And I wonder: is there any composer before, or contemporary with, Liszt who did not write at least one programmatic or descriptive orchestral / instrumental work? Otoh I can think of none.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 02, 2017, 11:32:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 12:01:41 AM
Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.

When I read things like this I remind myself that composers of music are skillful at that, composing music. The words they write and the things they tell themselves to motivate the composing of music are often best ignored.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 02, 2017, 11:51:15 AM
Mozart? Bruckner? Brahms?
It all depends on what one means with "programmatic"/"descriptive". On the one end one has Smetanas's Vltava or some of Richard Strauss where fairly concrete episodes can be connected with the musical episodes. On the other one has something like a lot of Schumann's piano music which is full of poetic allusions but they are all so vague that it would usually be a distortion to call the music descriptive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 11:59:50 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 02, 2017, 11:51:15 AM
Mozart?

Rondo alla turca.

One of his piano sonatas (can't remember which otomh) is supposed to picture mademoiselle Rose Cannabich, according to Mozart's own testimony.

QuoteBruckner?

Symphony No. 4 "Romantic"

QuoteBrahms?

Ballad op. 10 / 1 "Edward", Tragic Overture, Academic Overture.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 02, 2017, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 11:59:50 AM

Symphony No. 4 "Romantic"


Bruckner named that himself did he?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 02, 2017, 12:11:52 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 02, 2017, 12:03:44 PM
Bruckner named that himself did he?

According to Wikpedia, he did. Furthermore:

Quote from: WikipediaThere exists much evidence that Bruckner had a program in mind for the Fourth Symphony. In a letter to conductor Hermann Levi of 8 December 1884, Bruckner wrote: "In the first movement after a full night's sleep the day is announced by the horn, 2nd movement song, 3rd movement hunting trio, musical entertainment of the hunters in the wood.[2] There is a similar passage in a letter from the composer to Paul Heyse of 22 December 1890: "In the first movement of the "Romantic" Fourth Symphony the intention is to depict the horn that proclaims the day from the town hall! Then life goes on; in the Gesangsperiode [the second subject] the theme is the song of the great tit [a bird] Zizipe. 2nd movement: song, prayer, serenade. 3rd: hunt and in the Trio how a barrel-organ plays during the midday meal in the forest.[2]

The autograph of the Scherzo and Finale of the 1878 version of the symphony contains markings such as Jagdthema (hunting theme), Tanzweise während der Mahlzeit auf der Jagd (dance tune during the lunch break while hunting) and Volksfest (people's festival).[2] In addition to these clues that come directly from Bruckner, the musicologist Theodor Helm communicated a more detailed account reported via the composer's associate Bernhard Deubler: "Mediaeval city -- Daybreak -- Morning calls sound from the city towers -- the gates open -- On proud horses the knights burst out into the open, the magic of nature envelops them -- forest murmurs -- bird song -- and so the Romantic picture develops further...[2]

There does not seem to be any clear hint of a program for the third version (1880) of the symphony's finale.[2]
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 02, 2017, 02:41:33 PM
If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 02, 2017, 03:29:23 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 02, 2017, 02:41:33 PM
If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.
You are forgetting the Goosestep in A- K 124
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 02, 2017, 03:38:48 PM
I wish this thread had not become a referendum on Liszt.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 02, 2017, 03:52:33 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 02, 2017, 02:41:33 PM
If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.

Baroque and Classical era composers wrote programmatic music within the musical language and structure of the times.  Vivaldi's Four Periods Of The Year is an obvious example, but there were numerous others.  Telemann wrote a number of suites which purported to musically describe a specific topic. Biber's Rosary Sonatas are another example.

Liszt's innovation was to write such pieces using the musical language of his era and a sort of freeform structure for orchestra. I am not sure if he can be said to have done the same for piano, but he certainly gave the idea impetus there. He invented the tone poem...although of course even there Berlioz preceded him, although Berlioz was more prone to confine himself to the forms of symphony and cantata.

When did people start writing concert overtures? Before or after Lizst?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 02, 2017, 03:38:48 PM
I wish this thread had not become a referendum on Liszt.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



It's more a referendum on Liszt's ego .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 04:12:52 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 02, 2017, 03:52:33 PM


When did people start writing concert overtures? Before or after Lizst?
It's more a referendum on Liszt's ego .
All genius's have big egos.

Concert overture? Definitely before, not counting overtures to incidental music we have Mendelssohn's Fingal's Cave and Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage which came some 25 yrs or so before Les Preludes.

Or LvB's Coriolan Overture of 1804.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 02, 2017, 04:14:21 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 04:12:52 PM
All genius's have big egos.

Concert overture? Definitely before, not counting overtures to incidental music we have Mendelssohn's Fingal's Cave and Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage which came some 25 yrs or so before Les Preludes.

Facepalm. You would think I would have remembered Felix.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 04:16:44 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 02, 2017, 04:14:21 PM
Facepalm. You would think I would have remembered Felix.
Can you believe it? For someone who goes on the record as saying one needs to wash one's hands after touching a Berlioz score wrote NOT one, not TWO, but 3 programmatic symphonies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 02, 2017, 04:27:29 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 04:16:44 PM
Can you believe it? For someone who goes on the record as saying one needs to wash one's hands after touching a Berlioz score wrote NOT one, not TWO, but 3 programmatic symphonies.

I'm not sure I would call those three symphonies programmatic in the way that Symphonie Fantastique and Harold en Italie are--or Fingal's Cave.

BTW, another forerunner would be Weber:, Invitation to the Dance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 04:36:30 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 02, 2017, 04:27:29 PM

BTW, another forerunner would be Weber:, Invitation to the Dance.
Not sure whether that counts as a concert overture though, concert waltz yes...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on June 02, 2017, 05:03:04 PM
A tuning fork doesn't sound harsh to the ear. Somebody has to tell this to Edward Witten. Nor do microtone deviations sound ugly in themselves, that is a pernicious way to explain how a guitar is tuned or some properties of waves.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 02, 2017, 05:11:08 PM
Also from Beethoven: Die Weihe des Hauses and Namensfeier. Coriolan is sometimes considered not to count since it was technically written for a play, although there is no other music to follow it—if it does count as a concert overture it would probably be the earliest, if not I think it's Namensfeier.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 02, 2017, 05:25:10 PM
Quote from: amw on June 02, 2017, 05:11:08 PM
Also from Beethoven: Die Weihe des Hauses and Namensfeier. Coriolan is sometimes considered not to count since it was technically written for a play, although there is no other music to follow it—if it does count as a concert overture it would probably be the earliest, if not I think it's Namensfeier.

I thought of those, but I don't think they are programmatic, in the sense of meaning to convey a particular situation in musical terms.  But, as already mentioned by someone upthread,  the Pastorale Symphony is certainly programmatic.  (They are certainly concert overtures.)

Speaking of LvB, he did write at least one programmatic work for piano: the Les Adieux sonata. Who came up with the common names for the "Hunt" and "Tempest" sonatas?  Those are more evocative than programmatic.

The baroque produced plenty of programmatic music for keyboard: JSB's Caprice for a departed brother is only one example.

The more we talk this through, the less innovative Liszt seems to be...

ETA
I think Hummel produced several works that could be called programmatic, but I would have to look to be sure. Perhaps also Spohr and others of that generation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 02, 2017, 05:30:12 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 02, 2017, 03:52:33 PM
Baroque and Classical era composers wrote programmatic music within the musical language and structure of the times.  Vivaldi's Four Periods Of The Year is an obvious example, but there were numerous others.  Telemann wrote a number of suites which purported to musically describe a specific topic. Biber's Rosary Sonatas are another example.

All far better examples than the one that was offered.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 03, 2017, 02:29:06 AM
Quote from: Neil Asuolubaftaht on June 03, 2017, 01:03:28 AM
Somehow I completely missed half a page of conversation here but Ken is correct, that is what I was saying.

If I'm going to make a conscious effort to at least try to experience this music, of course I'm going to buy some CDs and listen to it on my stereo, not rely on Youtube or a streaming site. I still have those CDs too (well not in my apartment, Uni and all)

In which case, the idea that you have Mozart CDs "despite" your disdain for him simply means you didn't get rid of CDs after working out you didn't like them.

I don't think "despite" was a great choice of word for the cause-and-effect in that case.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 03, 2017, 03:47:31 AM
Quote from: Neil Asuolubaftaht on June 03, 2017, 01:03:28 AM
If I'm going to make a conscious effort to at least try to experience this music, of course I'm going to buy some CDs and listen to it on my stereo, not rely on Youtube or a streaming site. I still have those CDs too (well not in my apartment, Uni and all)

If you are referring to sound quality, why would you think the step in sound quality from Youtube or a streaming site is going to make you like music you don't like at lower sound quality? If I don't like the music of Verdi on Youtube, I know I won't likes his music from a multichannel SACD either. The increase in sound quality does not remove the structural problems I have with Verdi. Why would it solve your problems with Mozart?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 05:53:24 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 02, 2017, 02:41:33 PM
If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.

Quote from: ørfeo on June 03, 2017, 02:29:06 AM
In which case, the idea that you have Mozart CDs "despite" your disdain for him simply means you didn't get rid of CDs after working out you didn't like them.

I don't think "despite" was a great choice of word for the cause-and-effect in that case.

I'm greatly relieved: you're back to your usual self. For a moment I feared you did really become calm and relaxed.  >:D :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 03, 2017, 06:02:36 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 05:53:24 AM
I'm greatly relieved: you're back to your usual self. For a moment I feared you did really become calm and relaxed.  >:D :P

Going on holiday in one week. The preparations are stressing me out.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 06:07:19 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 03, 2017, 06:02:36 AM
Going on holiday in one week. The preparations are stressing me out.

:)

Enjoy your holiday! Where do you go?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 03, 2017, 06:12:00 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 06:07:19 AM
:)

Enjoy your holiday! Where do you go?

Denmark and northern Germany.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 06:18:08 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 03, 2017, 06:12:00 AM
Denmark and northern Germany.

A Holmboe pilgrimage perhaps?  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 03, 2017, 06:33:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 06:18:08 AM
A Holmboe pilgrimage perhaps?  :)

Only in the very loose sense that I may (a) spend half a day in his home town**, and (b) be on the lookout for one particular album in any CD shops I happen across.

**Apparently the number 1 tourist attraction is the former prison.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 06:35:21 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 03, 2017, 06:33:30 AM
Only in the very loose sense that I may (a) spend half a day in his home town**, and (b) be on the lookout for one particular album in any CD shops I happen across.

**Apparently the number 1 tourist attraction is the former prison.

Whatever you do, I wish you a great time there! Post some pictures when you're back!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2017, 07:26:23 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2017, 04:12:52 PM
All genius's have big egos.

I don't believe that for a minute.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2017, 07:28:13 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 02, 2017, 03:52:33 PM
It's more a referendum on Liszt's ego .

Better.

Let me say instead, then, that I wish this thread had not become a referendum on Liszt's ego, a discussion which can probably only depress general interest in the music itself.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on June 03, 2017, 07:56:09 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 03, 2017, 06:33:30 AM
**Apparently the number 1 tourist attraction is the former prison.

Yes, a captivating view.

Which other places i Denmark are you going to visit?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2017, 07:59:35 AM
Springtime in the Danish Slammer
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 03, 2017, 08:40:12 AM
Orfeo on holiday. I would pay serious money to watch him and Florestan share a small cottage for a week!!

:laugh: :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 03, 2017, 08:40:12 AM
Orfeo on holiday. I would pay serious money to watch him and Florestan share a small cottage for a week!!

:laugh: :P

I bet they'd get on great, and there would be nothing to watch.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2017, 08:45:50 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 03, 2017, 08:40:12 AM
Orfeo on holiday. I would pay serious money to watch him and Florestan share a small cottage for a week!!

:laugh: :P

I think it'd make for a great experience for both of us. And considering our musical tastes overlap a good deal, there will certainly be no fight over who should be in charge of the stereo equipment.  We might fight over the porn channel, though. :D  ;D  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 03, 2017, 10:41:14 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 03, 2017, 06:02:36 AM
Going on holiday in one week.
You promise?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2017, 10:42:39 AM
Oh, I'm feeling the love  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 03, 2017, 11:59:34 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 03, 2017, 07:56:09 AM
Yes, a captivating view.

Which other places i Denmark are you going to visit?

Staying in København, Odense, Aarhus and Kolding. Will use the trains and buses to visit various things.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 04, 2017, 12:00:49 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 03, 2017, 10:41:14 AM
You promise?

Are you under the mistaken impression that the internet isn't available on holiday?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 04, 2017, 09:00:07 AM
The baroque is full of that stuff. A large number of Couperin's keyboard pieces have titles.

But I have serious doubts with Mozart; there is this anecdote about a movement being a "portrait" of that young lady but this is extremely vague and could have been just a polite or flirtatious remark by the composer.

With Bruckner it is true that there are comments that hint at some programmatic content for the 4th and also for the 8th symphony (cossacks and three emperors in the finale).

I don't think any of the Brahms pieces is programmatic in the usual sense or even in the vaguely evocative way of Mendelssohn's "Hebrides". The "Edward" can be recited to the beginning of the music but the point here is only the dark tone of a ballad, not anything in particular about that poem.
And the Academic Festival Ouverture is basically Brahms version of "a musical joke" and less descriptive than Mozart's work with that name. The "Tragic" is not depicting anything either, even less so than e.g. Beethoven's "Coriolan".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on June 04, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
Unpopular opinion: Sibelius's Symphony No. 4 is practically ruined by a lightweight, miserable puff of a finale. I think it's a real shame that the three incredibly strong movements preceding it should be capped off in such a way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on June 04, 2017, 09:39:54 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 03, 2017, 11:59:34 PM
Staying in København, Odense, Aarhus and Kolding. Will use the trains and buses to visit various things.

Make sure to see Rundetårn, Børsen and Vor Frelsers Kirke, all in København.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 04, 2017, 12:42:40 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 04, 2017, 09:39:54 AM
Make sure to see Rundetårn, Børsen and Vor Frelsers Kirke, all in København.

2/3 I've already seen on my first trip. I've walked past the outside of Børsen but I haven't seen inside.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 04, 2017, 01:19:32 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 04, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
Unpopular opinion: Sibelius's Symphony No. 4 is practically ruined by a lightweight, miserable puff of a finale. I think it's a real shame that the three incredibly strong movements preceding it should be capped off in such a way.

You think that is an unpopular opinion about Sibelius? That's amateur-level stuff. I am the king of unpopular Sibelius opinions around here.  0:)

I don't want to cause mayhem here so I don't demonstrate how it's done.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 04, 2017, 01:29:50 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 04, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
Unpopular opinion: Sibelius's Symphony No. 4 is practically ruined by a lightweight, miserable puff of a finale. I think it's a real shame that the three incredibly strong movements preceding it should be capped off in such a way.

As I see it, the lightness is only strained, like that that opens the second movement, and it leads to its own demise.  If it weren't over-the-top, the point wouldn't be made very well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on June 05, 2017, 10:23:04 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 04, 2017, 01:19:32 PM
You think that is an unpopular opinion about Sibelius? That's amateur-level stuff. I am the king of unpopular Sibelius opinions around here.  0:)

I don't want to cause mayhem here so I don't demonstrate how it's done.  ;)

Well, if ever you feel like it, do alert me, I need to learn from a master!

Quote from: Mahlerian on June 04, 2017, 01:29:50 PM
As I see it, the lightness is only strained, like that that opens the second movement, and it leads to its own demise.  If it weren't over-the-top, the point wouldn't be made very well.

I've often felt that while I can appreciate a certain amount of Sibelius's approach to music, the full aesthetic eludes me. When I was younger this was not the case, or at least didn't seem to be, but now I suppose I just think about how well I understand a piece or style much more than I used to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 01:52:19 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 05, 2017, 10:23:04 PM
Well, if ever you feel like it, do alert me, I need to learn from a master!

No you don't, trust me. We live on a planet where worshipping Sibelius is considered a virtue and any critisism against his music is considered heretic and is frown upon. I am forever considered an outcast because of my opinions of Sibelius. How easy life would be if I simply found Sibelius as great a composer as Elgar? But I don't. To make it worse, I don't even life in the UK! I live in the worst possible place in this sense, Finland!  ???

Unlike me, you may have hope so I recommend you to turn to Sibelius nuts instead. Your life will be so much easier if you just worship every note Sibelius ever composed. That's because there is this principle called accumulation of advantage.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 06, 2017, 03:44:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 01:52:19 AM
No you don't, trust me. We live on a planet where worshipping Sibelius is considered a virtue and any critisism against his music is considered heretic and is frown upon. I am forever considered an outcast because of my opinions of Sibelius. How easy life would be if I simply found Sibelius as great a composer as Elgar? But I don't. To make it worse, I don't even life in the UK! I live in the worst possible place in this sense, Finland!  ???
You are really living in the worst place if you are not fond of Sibelius. If you go to Austria, France or southern Europe, I don't think Sibelius is very popular there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2017, 04:46:41 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 01:52:19 AM
We live on a planet where worshipping Sibelius is considered a virtue and any critisism against his music is considered heretic and is frown upon.

Which planet is that?  And how do you manage to communicate with us here on earth?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 06, 2017, 04:54:26 AM
René Leibowitz, anyone?  :D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on June 06, 2017, 04:56:10 AM
Every so often, young men wearing suits ride their bikes to my door, ring the bell and ask whether I've heard of Sibelius...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2017, 05:18:33 AM
"I try to tell them nicely, but they just come back for more . . . ."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 05:49:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 06, 2017, 03:44:54 AM
You are really living in the worst place if you are not fond of Sibelius. If you go to Austria, France or southern Europe, I don't think Sibelius is very popular there.

At some point in history French people considered Sibelius the "worst composer in the world." That's being TOO negative. Sibelius isn't THAT bad...  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 05:55:21 AM
Quote from: North Star on June 06, 2017, 04:56:10 AM
Every so often, young men wearing suits ride their bikes to my door, ring the bell and ask whether I've heard of Sibelius...

Young men wearing suits came to our door when I was a teenager. They didn't talk about Sibelius. Instead they talked about creation (at that time ID wasn't invented yet I believe) and I had to educate those morons about evolution. They left fast in confusion. :P  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on June 06, 2017, 07:36:24 AM
Don't forget horizontal gene transfer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 06, 2017, 09:17:00 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 01:52:19 AM
No you don't, trust me. We live on a planet where worshipping Sibelius is considered a virtue and any critisism against his music is considered heretic and is frown upon. I am forever considered an outcast because of my opinions of Sibelius. How easy life would be if I simply found Sibelius as great a composer as Elgar? But I don't. To make it worse, I don't even life in the UK! I live in the worst possible place in this sense, Finland!  ???

Unlike me, you may have hope so I recommend you to turn to Sibelius nuts instead. Your life will be so much easier if you just worship every note Sibelius ever composed. That's because there is this principle called accumulation of advantage.
Pffft. Try being a La Mer skeptic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AM
71dB you are really a broken record. Having been on this forum for 10 yrs (sadly) this must be the 10th time you have hijacked a thread with your endless drivel regarding your disdain for certain "popular" composers. We get it that you don"get" Sibelius, or that you think Dittersdorf is as great a composer as Bach. Instead of just saying you don't like their music you have to go out of your way to marginalize their greatness which is the part I don't understand. There are a number of "greats" that I don't really get (Brahms, most of Schumann) but I would never for a second doubt that their works are great in every sense of the word.

BTW who has said on this forum said that every single note that Sibelius has ever written is great?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 06, 2017, 09:40:26 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AMBTW who has said on this forum said that every single note that Sibelius has ever written is great?

Given the amount of mediocre music he spun out on a regular basis, I'd be surprised if anyone said that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AM
71dB you are really a broken record. Having been on this forum for 10 yrs (sadly)

12 years I believe...  :P

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AMthis must be the 10th time you have hijacked a thread with your endless drivel regarding your disdain for certain "popular" composers.

10 times sounds about right.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AMWe get it that you don"get" Sibelius, or that you think Dittersdorf is as great a composer as Bach.

I have never said Dittersdorf is as great a composer as Bach. Well, maybe as great as a lesser Bach, but not J.S., not even close! However, I think Dittersdorf was a great composer of his time and in that sense overlooked compared to how celebrated Haydn (not Michael, but the other one  :D ) is.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AMInstead of just saying you don't like their music you have to go out of your way to marginalize their greatness which is the part I don't understand.

The greatness of most composers is passively marginalized all the time by ignorance.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AMThere are a number of "greats" that I don't really get (Brahms, most of Schumann) but I would never for a second doubt that their works are great in every sense of the word.

Why not doubt? Are you so certain of the correctness of history? I am the first person to admit that Brahms wrote very good chamber music, but are his symphonies really that great after all or is it just an example of the principle of cumulative advantage?

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AMBTW who has said on this forum said that every single note that Sibelius has ever written is great?

Probably nobody, but it's only a matter of time before someone does.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 11:05:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 10:32:11 AM

The greatness of most composers is passively marginalized all the time by ignorance.


And why do you think most think the Haydn (not Michael, although it would be close) is a better composer than Dittersdorf? Is it some kind of conspiracy theory?

Quote from: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 10:32:11 AM

but are his symphonies really that great after all or is it just an example of the principle of cumulative advantage?

Yes they are that great, every single one of them, every movt a textbook on form whether it is sonata, theme and variation, or passacaglia. That I have zero doubt.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 06, 2017, 11:23:31 AM
Again, outside Finland not being extremely fond of Sibelius is hardly out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 06, 2017, 12:06:15 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 11:05:28 AM
And why do you think most think the Haydn (not Michael, although it would be close) is a better composer than Dittersdorf? Is it some kind of conspiracy theory?

Even I consider Haydn a better composer, but just a little, not 10 times better.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 11:05:28 AMYes they are that great, every single one of them, every movt a textbook on form whether it is sonata, theme and variation, or passacaglia. That I have zero doubt.

So, being a textbook on form is all music is?  ::)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 06, 2017, 12:18:24 PM
There's always a flavor of the month here (and some seem to last years). When the comments are insightful, or challenging, or observant, or somehow educating, then I still enjoy the discussions. When the comments go on and on and on about how wonderful and great and wonderful said composer is without much else to say (outside of the composer thread about that composer, which I think should be a place to discuss the composers without the nay-sayers), then the discussion can get tedious, mostly because of the sheer repetition.

I do believe that part of it is the belief that some pieces are 'deeper' than others (which then translates to the value of the composer), particularly dark, brooding works of some length and thus, there is more 'worth' to those pieces (and composers). It's like the argument that it's easier to be funny than to be serious (thinking of films, but it applies to music too). I think it's nonsense, but a lot of people adhere to it. That doesn't mean we have to agree with them.

The 'great' conversation about composers tends to be too opinion driven without enough discussion for the underlying reasons. And then it's just a matter of who can shout louder. Gives me a headache - especially on forums like this, where there's a lot of shouting at times! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 12:25:55 PM
This seems to be the right thread though for shouting over one another.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 06, 2017, 11:09:26 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 04, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
Unpopular opinion: Sibelius's Symphony No. 4 is practically ruined by a lightweight, miserable puff of a finale. I think it's a real shame that the three incredibly strong movements preceding it should be capped off in such a way.

HAhaah, I think it is texturally rather thin, but perhaps a new interpretation could be made out of this finale to give it some emotional depth
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 06, 2017, 11:13:09 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 06, 2017, 11:23:31 AM
Again, outside Finland not being extremely fond of Sibelius is hardly out of the ordinary.
Well, outside Finland and this particular internet forum. >_>
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 07, 2017, 03:33:13 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 09:37:12 AM
71dB you are really a broken record. Having been on this forum for 10 yrs (sadly) this must be the 10th time you have hijacked a thread with your endless drivel regarding your disdain for certain "popular" composers.

This is the unpopular opinions thread. It's not exactly a hijacking when someone goes against the flow. Nor did 71dB start the talk about Sibelius.

I mean, I nearly died when there was talk against the 4th symphony, so I know whodunnit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2017, 03:43:45 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 07, 2017, 03:33:13 AM
This is the unpopular opinions thread. It's not exactly a hijacking when someone goes against the flow. Nor did 71dB start the talk about Sibelius.

I mean, I nearly died when there was talk against the 4th symphony, so I know whodunnit.
True. I was wrong to call him out.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on June 07, 2017, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 07, 2017, 03:33:13 AM
I mean, I nearly died when there was talk against the 4th symphony, so I know whodunnit.

Two souls destined to clash whenever and wherever we meet.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 07, 2017, 12:42:03 PM
I also think that the finale of Sibelius' 4th is somewhat irritating with that strange "bimm bamm". Apparently there seems to be a discussion what kind of bells or glockenspiel Sibelius had in mind with some people trying different bells for a more sombre sound. But I don't think that it ruins the whole piece.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 07, 2017, 02:27:15 PM
Et tu, Jo498?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 07, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
I also confess to holding the unpopular opinion that Sibelius' 4th is among his least satisfying works (and always feel somewhat shamed by the commonly expressed opinion that it is his profoundest works). Sibelius is among my gods of music and his crowning achievement is the 6th symphony, I would say.

(It is a strange little world we have here where we can talk of a commonly expressed opinion about Sibelius 4. It is not as if, standing in line to pay for cotton balls at the pharmacy, I commonly hear customers arguing about the relative merits of Sibelius symphonies.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 07, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
So, Sibelius wrote a 4th symphony?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 07, 2017, 04:02:32 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 07, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
I also confess to holding the unpopular opinion that Sibelius' 4th is among his least satisfying works (and always feel somewhat shamed by the commonly expressed opinion that it is his profoundest works). Sibelius is among my gods of music and his crowning achievement is the 6th symphony, I would say.

My opinion isn't quite the opposite, but it's close enough: the Fourth is the best of Sibelius's symphonies, with the Seventh close behind, while the Sixth is a fascinating but flawed work that doesn't quite come together.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 07, 2017, 04:35:57 PM
The Sixth is not only Sibelius's greatest symphony but also one of the bleakest, most uncompromising expressions of depression and isolation in the musical literature, like walking through an empty landscape long after the last living things have died. Listening to it makes me feel as though I've been crying for hours and will never stop.

The Fifth Symphony should not have had a second and third movement. The Seventh Symphony is overrated, apart from the last four notes. Those notes are as good as their reputation.

The end of the Fifth Symphony not only makes perfect sense but is the most satisfying possible way Sibelius could have ended the piece. This is largely because of the "swan theme" hidden in the internal voices of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th chords. (The incredible amount of space between those chords is essentially the extreme form of the progressive allargando that that "swan theme" has been undergoing. It would probably be easier to understand if the trumpets and horns were holding the notes of the swan theme during the silences, but that would not sound as good.)

Sibelius's best work overall is not any of the symphonies but rather the six Humoresques for violin and orchestra, particularly the first two. Also the two Serenades, particularly the second one.

Finlandia is actually quite good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2017, 04:38:20 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 07, 2017, 04:02:32 PM
My opinion isn't quite the opposite, but it's close enough: the Fourth is the best of Sibelius's symphonies, with the Seventh close behind, while the Sixth is a fascinating but flawed work that doesn't quite come together.
I tend to agree.

I also like the second, if it is performed well, but there are a lot of bad recordings of the 2nd.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 08, 2017, 04:50:11 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 07, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
I also confess to holding the unpopular opinion that Sibelius' 4th is among his least satisfying works (and always feel somewhat shamed by the commonly expressed opinion that it is his profoundest works). Sibelius is among my gods of music and his crowning achievement is the 6th symphony, I would say.

85% of the time, the Sixth is my favorite Sibelius work, as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 08, 2017, 04:51:38 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2017, 04:38:20 PM
I also like the second, if it is performed well, but there are a lot of bad recordings of the 2nd.

It's like that with popular works:  more people conduct/perform it, than can conduct/perform it well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 08, 2017, 06:34:11 AM
I love the 4th and the 6th, so all of you splitting into opposing camps can just stop ruining my life, please.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on June 08, 2017, 06:51:58 AM
I love them all too, but the 3rd deserves more attention.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 08, 2017, 07:12:21 AM
Quote from: North Star on June 08, 2017, 06:51:58 AM
I love them all too, but the 3rd deserves more attention.

Agree fully about the 3rd. Maazel's Pittsburgh recording was a revelation for me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 08, 2017, 07:46:37 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 08, 2017, 06:34:11 AM
I love the 4th and the 6th, so all of you splitting into opposing camps can just stop ruining my life, please.

Sibelius was a tidy man who gave careful thought for his admirers and how to simplify their lives. Thus he carefully ranked his symphonies, ensuring that in terms of merit, 1<2<3<4<5<6<7.  Unable to extend this string he retired.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 08, 2017, 07:55:40 AM
Quote from: North Star on June 08, 2017, 06:51:58 AM
I love them all too, but the 3rd deserves more attention.

Aye.  ørfeo, you mustn't mistake my participation as signing on at all to the (horribly misguided 8) ) disapproval of the a minor symphony!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nathanb on June 08, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
Unpopular opinion of the day:

Humans are fucking stupid scum.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 08, 2017, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: nathanb on June 08, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
Unpopular opinion of the day:

Humans are fucking stupid scum.
Sadly a popular opinion. Amongst wankers, poseurs, and other self-aggrandizers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on June 09, 2017, 06:57:06 AM
Frantic fugue, fierce finale: feeling Fire fucking Freya.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 09, 2017, 10:05:51 AM
Facts matter.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on June 09, 2017, 10:08:44 AM
Quote from: nathanb on June 08, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
Unpopular opinion of the day:

Humans Politicians (especially of the brit variety) are fucking stupid scum.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 10, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
Adam West was the best Batman of the lot.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 10, 2017, 01:26:43 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
Adam West was the best Batman of the lot.

That may need to be moved to the Popular Opinions thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 10, 2017, 01:46:58 PM
UO 1: Most comic books and movies based on comic books are infantile, ridiculous and not worth the time.
UO 2: It is surprising that even among cultured adults [i.e. people who can and regularly do read books without pictures] UO 1 really seems to be an UO.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 10, 2017, 02:22:28 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 10, 2017, 01:46:58 PM
UO 1: Most comic books and movies based on comic books are infantile, ridiculous and not worth the time.
UO 2: It is surprising that even among cultured adults [i.e. people who can and regularly do read books without pictures] UO 1 really seems to be an UO.

UO1: I Agree. What's the fascination of Batman or Superman? Those characters don't even look interesting. The "superpowers" and weaknesses given to these characters are mostly stupid.

UO2: I don't agree with this. Even the most cultured people may want to spend their time on less cultured things too. At least my mind likes to oscillate between smart and silly things, between Bach and Katy Perry for example. I have been listening to Schiff's Bach (Partitas) and Katy Perry's new album Witness on Spotify lately.  0:) Silly things are ok as long you know they are silly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 10, 2017, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 10, 2017, 01:26:43 PM
That may need to be moved to the Popular Opinions thread.

I will not contest that decision.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on June 13, 2017, 08:15:05 PM
It wouldn't be agreeable or truly interesting to neorologically manipulate many-legged-creatures to produce their/an analog of music (quite close for some spiders) under different stimuli, but fun for a while.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on June 21, 2017, 05:53:17 AM
I like the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Fifth.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 21, 2017, 06:34:36 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 21, 2017, 05:53:17 AM
I like the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Fifth.

Why?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on June 21, 2017, 06:35:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 21, 2017, 06:34:36 AM
Why?


Covered in The Asian Invasion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Robert101 on June 21, 2017, 08:54:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
Adam West was the best Batman of the lot.


I soooo agree! ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2017, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 21, 2017, 06:35:34 AM

Covered in The Asian Invasion.
I just sampled several bits of that recording and the only (Schalk-induced, I think) thing I really hated was the lack of/glossed-over contrapuntal trumpets coming in with the first movement theme in the very last bars.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 21, 2017, 09:16:31 AM
A certain Hans Knappertsbusch conducted that edition and did a fairly good job of it in my view.

My only issue with the Schalk edition is that the last movement kind of stops making sense as a sonata-fugue hybrid if you remove the recapitulation (which Schalk does). However even then, Bruckner authorized Schalk to make the arrangement and was satisfied with the results, or at least so Mr. Knappertsbusch believed, and by leaving the fugue writing uninterrupted we certainly get a more exciting and dramatic flow of music targeting the coda as eventual goal.

I listen to it fairly often although not as often as Dohnányi & Cleveland conducting the original flavour Fifth. And Jochum in Amsterdam but that is more of a special occasions recording.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 21, 2017, 03:02:09 PM
One from Artur Schnabel:

Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters.

And a (maybe equally unpopular) comment by Leon Fleisher:

[Schabel] said [that] because with the fewest number of notes, [Mozart] accesses the deepest levels of human awareness and experience.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 21, 2017, 03:27:02 PM
We should send all of those big late romantic symphonies to the moon and replace them with contemporary stuff in all the concert programs  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2017, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 21, 2017, 05:53:17 AM
I like the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Fifth.

My first B5 (Knapp) and I still get a kick out of it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2017, 03:48:23 PM
Quote from: amw on June 21, 2017, 09:16:31 AM
I listen to it fairly often although not as often as Dohnányi & Cleveland conducting the original flavour Fifth. And Jochum in Amsterdam but that is more of a special occasions recording.

Dohnányi, Jochum (in Amsterdam) and Knapp...a worthy trio of Bruckner Fifths

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 21, 2017, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2017, 03:48:23 PM
Dohnányi, Jochum (in Amsterdam) and Knapp...a worthy trio of Bruckner Fifths

Sarge

Slightly over a half-gallon.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 21, 2017, 05:11:57 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 21, 2017, 03:27:02 PM
We should send all of those big late romantic symphonies to the moon and replace them with contemporary stuff in all the concert programs  ;D

That is not popular with me! :P

I would say have both! And I think we should include more chamber, chamber orchestra and electroacoustic works in these orchestral concerts. Orchestras are made up of musicians who can pretty much play anything, so they should be made to play in many different contexts I reckon.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on June 21, 2017, 10:37:58 PM
Late Romanticism is as "bad" as Early Romanticism for almost opposite reasons or, in some quarters, the same reason: not being Wagner.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 21, 2017, 11:31:33 PM
Quote from: Uhor on June 21, 2017, 10:37:58 PM
Late Romanticism is as "bad" as Early Romanticism for almost opposite reasons or, in some quarters, the same reason: not being Wagner.

I agree with this completely. Late Romanticism is good though, you got Schreker and R. Strauss and Elgar and Schoenberg and Mahler, all of whose late Romantic works I think are remarkable. Early Romanticism has none of that but there are still some great pieces by Schumann, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Weber etc............everything, I guess, is a product of its time. Wagner being the height of Romanticism, naturally. :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 22, 2017, 02:01:51 AM
Quote from: Uhor on June 21, 2017, 10:37:58 PM
Late Romanticism is as "bad" as Early Romanticism for almost opposite reasons or, in some quarters, the same reason: not being Wagner.

Is Wagner all Mid Romanticism has to offer?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 02:29:24 AM
Wagner is overrated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2017, 03:10:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 02:29:24 AM
Wagner is overrated.

Another opinion which may be more popular than you think  8)

Many True Wagnerites will deny this in their blind zealotry, but it is possible to find merit in [some of] Wagner's work without feeling that he is The Supremousest Genius of Western Music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: BasilValentine on June 22, 2017, 04:57:36 AM
Quote from: jessop on June 21, 2017, 11:31:33 PM
I agree with this completely. Late Romanticism is good though, you got Schreker and R. Strauss and Elgar and Schoenberg and Mahler, all of whose late Romantic works I think are remarkable. Early Romanticism has none of that but there are still some great pieces by Schumann, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Weber etc............everything, I guess, is a product of its time. Wagner being the height of Romanticism, naturally. :D

The height of Romantic opera, a hybrid form, but not of music proper — echoing Hanslick to make sure the opinion is unpopular enough. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 06:46:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 22, 2017, 03:10:46 AM
Another opinion which may be more popular than you think  8)

Many True [believers]will deny this in their blind zealotry, but it is possible to find merit in [some of] [his] work without feeling that he is The Supremousest Genius of Western Music.

Now it fits Schoenberg and Webern too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2017, 06:50:55 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 06:46:32 AM
Now it fits Schoenberg and Webern too.

Perhaps I have been spared, but I have not known any enthusiasts for Schoenberg or Webern (well, not known personally . . . I suppose certain Darmstadtlings qualify) to match the Bayreuth Brigade.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2017, 07:02:59 AM
Of course, it helps the later composers that, where Wagner was an insecure narcissist (getting a lot of that on TV these days) convinced that he was leading humanity to The Musical Future, Schoenberg did not insist that anyone else write music as he did.  He was sure that what he was doing was musically right;  and I am an enthusiast to the degree of saying that I have not heard a note of Schoenberg's which I did not like . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 08:15:57 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 22, 2017, 04:57:36 AM
The height of Romantic opera, a hybrid form, but not of music proper — echoing Hanslick to make sure the opinion is unpopular enough. :)

Plus: Romanticism did not have one single height; it had many, and some of them were quite early, for instance Winterreise, A Midsummer's Night Dream Overture, Symphonie Fantastique, Carnaval.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 22, 2017, 08:37:14 AM
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

His mature works are the pinncale of romanticsm, but at the same time trascend that artistic movement to open the gates of modernity in the arts.

If I don't say it, I explode!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2017, 08:42:27 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 22, 2017, 08:37:14 AM
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

Well, that is an unpopular opinion!  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 22, 2017, 08:50:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 22, 2017, 08:42:27 AM
Well, that is an unpopular opinion!  8)
That's what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas?  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 22, 2017, 09:04:17 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 22, 2017, 08:50:01 AM
That's what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas?  ;)

What is this, a Poirot novel?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2017, 09:42:51 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 22, 2017, 08:50:01 AM
That's what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas?  ;)

Bien sûr!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 22, 2017, 09:44:47 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 22, 2017, 08:37:14 AM
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

His mature works are the pinncale of romanticsm, but at the same time trascend that artistic movement to open the gates of modernity in the arts.

If I don't say it, I explode!  ;D

Wagner is both underrated and overrated.  He's been hyped for the wrong things and passed over for some of the important things he achieved.  He has abig reputation but reputation is for the wrong things.
Quote from: Scarpia on June 22, 2017, 09:04:17 AM
What is this, a Poirot novel?

Contrary opinions often spur use of the little grey cells.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 22, 2017, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 22, 2017, 09:44:47 AM
Wagner is both underrated and overrated.  He's been hyped for the wrong things and passed over for some of the important things he achieved.  He has abig reputation but reputation is for the wrong things.
Very nicely put, mon cher.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2017, 10:12:23 AM
Jeffrey put it well; I'd add that many are repulsed by the antics of rabid Wagnerians and all the other stuff surrounding Wagner and his "tradition" (Winifred, Hitler, whatnot) but all this has very little to do with the music. People who are put off by Wagnerianism tend to underrate the composer, I guess.
But I think that by many musicians, dramatists, composers and a few other artists (like Thomas Mann who was totally nuts about Wagner) Wagner is often highly rated and properly revered for really stunning achievements. Although even among such elite connoisseurs the hype might have been a little over the top ca. 1875-1915.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 10:52:47 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 22, 2017, 08:37:14 AM
Wagner, despite all the hype surrounding him, is actually underrated.

His mature works are the pinncale of romanticsm, but at the same time trascend that artistic movement to open the gates of modernity in the arts.

If I don't say it, I explode!  ;D

This could well be true.
He is I think the most influential artist of any sort in the past 300 years. (Even J-Lo pales in comparison.) That's not chopped liver.  I also think he is very under rated as an abstract musical thinker. I was amazed by Deryck Cooke's lectures where he illustrated the links and transformations of the leitmotifs in the Ring.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
This might well be true. Bach and Beethoven might have been as influential or more in music but Wagner is probably the only musician who had such a huge influence on other arts, especially literature. This seems uncommon for musicians and even in other arts one probably has to go back to Shakespeare (and then Dante) to find such a huge interdisciplinary influence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:41:46 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 22, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
This might well be true. Bach and Beethoven might have been as influential or more in music but Wagner is probably the only musician who had such a huge influence on other arts, especially literature.

Other than many writers being Wagnerians, how does this "influence" translate in terms of literature, ie literary techniques or themes? Could you name one "Wagnerian" literary work?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 11:46:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:41:46 AM
Other than many writers being Wagnerians, how does this "influence" translate in terms of literature, ie literary techniques or themes? Could you name one "Wagnerian" literary work?
Der Ring das Niebelungen.

So how about Lord of the Rings too?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 11:48:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:41:46 AM
Other than many writers being Wagnerians

Other than many writers being Marxist, how does Marx's influence spread into writing?  ::)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 11:52:27 AM
You really can't have it both ways Andrei. Either Wagnerians are cultists whose lives are taken over, whose minds and souls are obsessed by Wagner and his vision OR he has no real influence on them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:52:57 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 11:46:27 AM
Der Ring das Niebelungen.

You're kidding, right? I do hope you are.

Quote
So how about Lord of the Rings too?

According to Wikipedia:

Tolkien sought to dismiss critics' direct comparisons to Wagner, telling his publisher, "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases." According to Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, the author claimed to hold Wagner's interpretation of the relevant Germanic myths in contempt, even as a young man before reaching university.[57]
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:54:25 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 11:52:27 AM
You really can't have it both ways Andrei. Either Wagnerians are cultists whose lives are taken over, whose minds and souls are obsessed by Wagner and his vision OR he has no real influence on them.

I claimed neither, actually.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 11:48:41 AM
Other than many writers being Marxist, how does Marx's influence spread into writing?  ::)

Good question. Dashiell Hammett or Gabriel Garcia Marquez were hardline commies --- now please show me one literary work of theirs which shows it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 12:14:19 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:52:57 AM
You're kidding, right? I do hope you are.

According to Wikipedia:

Tolkien sought to dismiss critics' direct comparisons to Wagner, telling his publisher, "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases." According to Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, the author claimed to hold Wagner's interpretation of the relevant Germanic myths in contempt, even as a young man before reaching university.[57]

It's remarkable Andrei to see you cite a man reacting to Wagner in his youth, about the magnum opus and central concern of his life, and not see that as influence. This is like saying Christianity had no influence on Islam, since it is so explicitly anti-Christian.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2017, 12:21:30 PM
It has been claimed for several books that they use something like Wagnerian leitmotiv technique. Then also the themes. Thomas Mann wrote one short story/novella "Tristan", another one "Wälsungenblut" (about incestous siblings). In "Buddenbrooks" the decadence of the last of that line (a consumptive and dreamy boy) is illustrated by his obsession with Wagner. It's been ages that I read that and I haven't read all of his books but there are more allusions and there is often something close to leitmotivs. Of course, it could be claimed that something like a leitmotiv running through a longer novel is nothing new or especially Wagnerian. I am not an expert on such stuff but I trust that historians of literature would be able to tell a difference between pre- and post-Wagnerian use of such techniques.

Mann is the only one I have read and can vouch for myself; then there is of course Nietzsche (who later reversed to hating Wagner). Regardless of Nietzsche's turn, what he describes as the dionysian aspect of music was found by many to be perfectly incorporated in Wagner's music.

wikipedia mentions a whole bunch:
Charles Baudelaire, Stéphane Mallarmé, Paul Verlaine  Édouard Dujardin, J. K. Huysmans, D. H. Lawrence, Aubrey Beardsley, Romain Rolland, Gérard de Nerval, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Rainer Maria Rilke, W. H. Auden, Thomas Mann, Marcel Proust, James Joyce, T. S. Eliot. (There are almost no Germans on that list, so I guess lesser and more parochial followers were excluded)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Influence_on_literature.2C_philosophy_and_the_visual_arts
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2017, 12:24:04 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 22, 2017, 11:58:21 AM
Good question. Dashiell Hammett or Gabriel Garcia Marquez were hardline commies --- now please show me one literary work of theirs which shows it.
Can't stand Marquez. As for Hammett, there's the plays of Lillian Hellman. I am one of many who believe Hammett helped write some of them. But in any case, this doesn't help your case. Just because Hammett's writings aren't communist doesn't mean marxism didn't influence/distort other writers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Turner on June 22, 2017, 12:39:04 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 22, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
This might well be true. Bach and Beethoven might have been as influential or more in music but Wagner is probably the only musician who had such a huge influence on other arts, especially literature. This seems uncommon for musicians and even in other arts one probably has to go back to Shakespeare (and then Dante) to find such a huge interdisciplinary influence.

And painting too, btw -  albeit in a way that often appears kitschy to us today, and especially as regards symbolist painters, that are to some extent forgotten now. No other composer has inspired so many painters.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 01:21:55 AM
I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but I've got to get it off my chest.

John Ogdon's performances of Scriabin's sonatas are heavy-handed and haphazard. Little understanding for the music seems apparent.

There, I said it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 01:30:13 AM
Okay, I got it: art history has two periods: before Wagner and after Wagner; everything before was just a preparation for his advent, everything after is just a commentary upon, or reaction to, his work.

I am still an unrepentant heretic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 23, 2017, 01:43:00 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 01:30:13 AM

I am still an unrepentant heretic.
Burn him at the stake!  ;D

No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver... ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Turner on June 23, 2017, 01:47:36 AM
Quote from: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 01:21:55 AM
I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but I've got to get it off my chest.

John Ogdon's performances of Scriabin's sonatas are heavy-handed and haphazard. Little understanding for the music seems apparent.

There, I said it.

I´m not a big fan of Ogdon either. Often forceful but with less architecture, IMO. A fine Busoni solo piano recording though - the Fantasias. I´ve got about a dozen LPs/CDs with him.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pjme on June 23, 2017, 02:07:26 AM
Hmmm - will this be ..exiting?? Found it at Slipped disc.



Wagner's "The Ring of the Nibelung" in historically-informed performance practice – Concerto Köln and Kent Nagano launch an extraordinary project

In their most recent collaboration, Concerto Köln and the internationally-renowned conductor, Kent Nagano, pursue a leading-edge project: in cooperation with scientists at the university and Musichochschule in Cologne, they are taking on Richard Wagner's tetralogy, "The Ring of the Nibelung". Their undertaking will provide the international opera scene with new impetus in historically-informed approaches to musical-theatrical works of the 19th century.

Jochen Schäfsmeier (Managing Director, Concerto Köln): "Concerto Köln is as honoured as it is inspirited to approach Wagner's ,Ring' together with Kent Nagano and to be able to make an important contribution to the historical performance practice of 19th century music."

For the first time, the entire "Ring" is to be viewed from an early music movement perspective: the instrumental and vocal styles as well as the staging at the time of Wagner will be examined over a period of several years and compiled to form a historically-informed performance concept.

Kent Nagano (Artistic Director): "It is due to historical performance practice that nowadays there is a much different understanding of many composers and their works than was standard 30 or 40 years ago. Moreover, thanks to historicized approaches, we have gained knowledge about instruments and playing techniques which opens up to us new, pioneering pathways into the interpretation and performance of our music.

Richard Wagner's ,The Ring of the Nibelung' is probably one of the most researched compositions yet nonetheless, a systematic approach to the tetralogy from a historically-informed perspective has not been attempted thus far. It is therefore all the more important that such an undertaking is tackled and that, in romantic repertoire now as well, normality in terms of sound which seemed irrefutable so far is called into question.

I have collaborated together with Concerto Köln for several projects in the past and am convinced that I have found two most competent partners in the Cologne ensemble and the Kunststiftung NRW who are able to provide the scientific basis for a historically-informed reading of Richard Wagner's ,Ring'. Together we will pursue this endeavor and bring the music to the stage!"



The simultaneously scientific as well as artistic undertaking on such a mammoth scale requires tremendous effort with the additional aim of becoming a guide to performance practice of 19th century music and opera. The outcome, interpreted by Concerto Köln and Kent Nagano, will be performed from the 2020/21 onward. All research findings will be published in Open Access.



Prof. Dr. Hans-Joachim Wagner (Kunststiftung NRW): "For the Kunststiftung NRW, the support of the project, ,WAGNER-READINGS', is of significance in a number of ways. For several years, supporting artistic research has played a major role within the Kunststiftung's funding programs – albeit with a primary focus on theater, dance and literature; examples of this being the Christoph-Schlingensief guest professorship for scenic research at the Ruhr University in Bochum, the Pina Bausch fellowship and the Thomas Kling lectureship at the University of Bonn. With ,WAGNER-READINGS', the base of support is expanded to the area of music, bringing art and research together in a so to speak ideal-typical way by conducting research into the complex correlations involved in the musical-theatrical production of Wagner and translating the results into artistic practice."



Initial work already began in May of 2017. The official go-ahead for the project is a symposium in September, 2017. Financial support is provided by the Kunststiftung NRW and the Freunde von Concerto Köln e.V. Additional support is provided by the Strecker-Stiftung and MBL Akustikgeräte GmbH & Co. KG.



Further information can be found at  www.wagner-lesarten.de

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 02:20:45 AM
Quote from: Turner on June 23, 2017, 01:47:36 AM
I´m not a big fan of Ogdon either. Often forceful but with less architecture, IMO.

The performances almost make them appear to be different works when compared to other renditions that I have. I even thought my CD player was skipping, it seemed so different. 😧
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 04:57:12 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 23, 2017, 02:29:34 AM
Do you like Ashkenazy's?  :)

Only got him with the London Philharmonic (Piano Concerto).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 05:03:50 AM
In fact, while I'm opining...

I had a Richter CD of Scriabin which I found unlistenable. I can't get on with old recordings that have inferior sound quality, whoever the composer or performer. It went to the charity shop....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2017, 05:15:55 AM
Wagner was yuuuge.  Music in the 19th century was broke, and only he could fix it.  He made all our musical dreams come true.  He was smarter than any other composer.  Very smart.  Very smart.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 23, 2017, 06:03:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 23, 2017, 05:15:55 AM
Wagner was yuuuge.  Music in the 19th century was broke, and only he could fix it.  He made all our musical dreams come true.  He was smarter than any other composer.  Very smart.  Very smart.

Give him credit -- Brahms, Bruckner, Dvorak, Mahler. He did make the symphony great again.


;) ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2017, 06:09:15 AM
The power of a negative example!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on June 23, 2017, 07:51:40 AM
Quote from: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 05:03:50 AM
In fact, while I'm opining...

I had a Richter CD of Scriabin which I found unlistenable. I can't get on with old recordings that have inferior sound quality, whoever the composer or performer. It went to the charity shop....
I am with you. That's why I have so little from before the stereo age (and that usually because it's part of something else).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 10:56:42 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 23, 2017, 06:03:12 AM
Give him credit

Oh, but I do give credit where credit is due. There is no doubt that Wagner singlehandedly* turned opera from the most "democratic" and popular form of music into an esoteric cult for the happy few --- heck, he even instituted a Mecca and a hajj. There is no God except The Gesamkunstwerk, and Wagner is His prophet.  ;D >:D :P

Seriously now, I am only too happy Wagner's path was actually followed by few; had he succeeded in imposing his views, all subsequent music would have consisted only of Rings and Parsifals --- ie, boredom, conceit and egomania would have reigned supreme, signalling the end of music as an art form, period.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 23, 2017, 11:08:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 10:56:42 AM
boredom, conceit and egomania would have reigned supreme, signalling the end of music as an art form, period.

Andrei, ever hear of Darmstadt?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 23, 2017, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 10:56:42 AM
Oh, but I do give credit where credit is due. There is no doubt that Wagner singlehandedly* turned opera from the most "democratic" and popular form of music into an esoteric cult for the happy few --- heck, he even instituted a Mecca and a hajj. There is no God except The Gesamkunstwerk, and Wagner is His prophet.  ;D >:D :P

Seriously now, I am only too happy Wagner's path was actually followed by few; had he succeeded in imposing his views, all subsequent music would have consisted only of Rings and Parsifals --- ie, boredom, conceit and egomania would have reigned supreme, signalling the end of music as an art form, period.

You certainly have cultivated the typical discussion board psychosis to a tee. Wagner did not 'impose his views' on the music world. Maybe he would have wanted to, but he had no such power. He simply wrote his music (accompanied by some ill-considered tracts) and sent it out into the world. To the extent that subsequent composers were influenced by his work is on them, not Wagner.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 11:12:35 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 23, 2017, 11:09:09 AM
You certainly have the cultivated typical discussion board psychosis to a tee.

You certainly lack any sense of humor and you certainly take discussion boards way too seriously. Listening to too much Wagner, perhaps?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 23, 2017, 11:08:08 AM
Andrei, ever hear of Darmstadt?

If I said that I'd take Wagner over Darmstadt any day and night, would it answer your question?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 23, 2017, 11:27:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 11:12:35 AM
You certainly lack any sense of humor and you certainly take discussion boards way too seriously. Listening to too much Wagner, perhaps?

Maybe you're the one that lacks a sense of humor and takes things too seriously?  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 23, 2017, 11:31:10 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 23, 2017, 11:27:39 AM
Maybe you're the one that lacks a sense of humor and takes things too seriously?  :D

Andrei certainly does not lack a sense of humor. I've heard him praise Angela Merkel.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Turner on June 23, 2017, 11:45:17 AM
A complete Polka lasting 31 seconds, by Wagner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxARd6Dblz4
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Abuelo Igor on June 23, 2017, 03:47:58 PM
Quote from: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 02:20:45 AM
The performances almost make them appear to be different works when compared to other renditions that I have. I even thought my CD player was skipping, it seemed so different. 😧

Maybe you don't like it, but I think they used to call that "interpretation". Unless you have your score in hand and you catch the musician actually ignoring what is written, "making them appear to be different works" is not necessarily bad.

But I must add that for some years that was the only Scriabin piano recording that I had and just couldn't get into the music until I listened to other versions, so you may be onto something there...

Unfortunately, my second version, the one that sold me on Scriabin, was Szidon's, which is commonly reputed to be even worse, so my credentials are far from impeccable...  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 10:26:13 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 23, 2017, 11:31:10 AM
Andrei certainly does not lack a sense of humor. I've heard him praise Angela Merkel.

How can you not like her? She's sexy, smart and tough...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 11:25:10 PM
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on June 23, 2017, 03:47:58 PM
Maybe you don't like it, but I think they used to call that "interpretation". Unless you have your score in hand and you catch the musician actually ignoring what is written, "making them appear to be different works" is not necessarily bad.

I appreciate your comments.

Yes, I appreciate that it is interpretation. It is an interpretation that I do not care for. I'm not suggesting any errors in performance, I imagine there are none (a score would be no use to an ignoramus like me!). I have heard four other performances and, compared to the Ogdon, I would say that these other four are "in the same ballpark."

Quote from: Abuelo Igor on June 23, 2017, 03:47:58 PM
But I must add that for some years that was the only Scriabin piano recording that I had and just couldn't get into the music until I listened to other versions, so you may be onto something there...
My experience could have been similar; in that if the Ogdon had been the first Scriabin I had heard then (on that basis) it would have been the last as I would have filed Scriabin away under not enjoyable to listen to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Turner on June 23, 2017, 11:34:01 PM
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on June 23, 2017, 03:47:58 PM
... But I must add that for some years that was the only Scriabin piano recording that I had and just couldn't get into the music until I listened to other versions, so you may be onto something there...

Unfortunately, my second version, the one that sold me on Scriabin, was Szidon's, which is commonly reputed to be even worse, so my credentials are far from impeccable...  :P

Szidon´s recording of the 1st Sonata is highly unusual, and superb.
I think he´s probably pretty good overall, but it´s been a while since I heard something else in that DG set of the sonatas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 23, 2017, 11:39:33 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 23, 2017, 10:26:13 PM
She's sexy

Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor? Or another one?

::)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 23, 2017, 11:55:17 PM
Here is an interesting unpopular opinion about music https://youtu.be/eYua80VEcBk
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 24, 2017, 12:16:52 AM
It is very popular with me... :D (and I am almost 30 years younger than Scruton)
Scruton can be a pompous ass (but with philosophy professors one usually only has a choice between pompous, pontificating and smug) but he is certainly among the smartest conservative thinkers around (and surprisingly well preserved at 73).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 24, 2017, 12:30:53 AM
I'm not particularly interested as treating music as a consumer product or a background sound to be quite honest. I'm not against pop music though, for the reasons he expressed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 24, 2017, 12:45:36 AM
I'm not one to get offended or annoyed by such a thing, I'm just not a fan haha
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 24, 2017, 02:53:53 AM
The ads at the top of this forum's home page keep pushing "Mozart for Meditation." Not sure about that...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 24, 2017, 02:58:30 AM
Beethoven's Wellingtons Sieg is actually a great work!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 24, 2017, 03:02:57 AM
Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is actually underrated because it suffers from the grievous sin of being program music. In opinion of some people if music work dares to express anything else than purely musical ideas, that must mean the work must be a bad one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 24, 2017, 03:07:44 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 24, 2017, 03:02:57 AM
Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is actually underrated

Yep, my favorite of Beethoven's symphonies.  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on June 24, 2017, 03:17:54 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 24, 2017, 03:02:57 AM
Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is actually underrated because it suffers from the grievous sin of being program music. In opinion of some people if music work dares to express anything else than purely musical ideas, that must mean the work must be a bad one.

In my view a programme cannot make a good piece of music, such as the 6th Symphony of Beethoven, bad, but it also cannot make a bad piece of music good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 24, 2017, 03:23:02 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 24, 2017, 03:17:54 AM
In my view a programme cannot make a good piece of music, such as the 6th Symphony of Beethoven, bad, but it also cannot make a bad piece of music good.

Fair enough.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 24, 2017, 03:44:31 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 24, 2017, 03:31:55 AM
Well I like the fourth movement!

That is actually my favorite. Thunderstorm depicted musically, pure awesomeness!

And yes, I like this symphony better than any other symphony from Old Ludwig's pen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 24, 2017, 04:19:31 AM
Quote from: nodogen on June 24, 2017, 02:53:53 AM
The ads at the top of this forum's home page keep pushing "Mozart for Meditation." Not sure about that...

I've been getting some ads for a Mozart festival that Richard Egarr is conducting most of next month here. Thankfully not 'Mozart for meditation!'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2017, 04:27:38 AM
Quote from: jessop on June 24, 2017, 12:30:53 AM
I'm not particularly interested as treating music as a consumer product

Whether we are interested in that or not, that is how much of our society/environment treats it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2017, 09:15:05 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 24, 2017, 02:58:30 AM
Beethoven's Wellingtons Sieg is actually a great work!

Very popular with me!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2017, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 24, 2017, 03:02:57 AM
Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is actually underrated because it suffers from the grievous sin of being program music. In opinion of some people if music work dares to express anything else than purely musical ideas, that must mean the work must be a bad one.

Well, beside being a musical critic, Hanslick was also a composer. Guess what genre did he cultivated? Absolute music my a$$, he composed Lieder.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Abuelo Igor on June 24, 2017, 03:43:07 PM
Quote from: Turner on June 23, 2017, 11:34:01 PM
Szidon´s recording of the 1st Sonata is highly unusual, and superb.
I think he´s probably pretty good overall, but it´s been a while since I heard something else in that DG set of the sonatas.

I know that some people rate Szidon quite poorly on account of playing some wrong notes and being too forceful and passionate, but, sure, that First Sonata is quite scorching, and, because of that set, I became a Scriabin fan for life, preferring his piano works to any of the orchestral pieces.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 24, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: Alberich on June 24, 2017, 03:02:57 AM
Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is actually underrated because it suffers from the grievous sin of being program music. In opinion of some people if music work dares to express anything else than purely musical ideas, that must mean the work must be a bad one.
Sorry, nothing can be underrated when played as often as this piece, granted often the performance is terrible because noone seems to have the patience for this piece anymore. So you get missing exposition repeats, rushed tempo and awful ensemble balance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on June 25, 2017, 01:30:31 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 24, 2017, 03:51:18 AM
The orchestration in the fourth movement I find quite impressive, he gets more sound than I would expect out of his orchestra at that point than I initially expected! The climaxes and falls, plus the timbrel attacks towards the end are like "Is this Beethoven??"  :o

The orchestration of the sixth symphony works much better that the other symphonies. As I have said before (and this seems to be a very unpopular opinion): Beethoven's orchestration is too old-fashioned for his "pioneering proto-romantic" music except for the 6th symphony were Beethoven somehow manages to use romantic ideas because of the nature of the symphony. That's why the symphony works so well and is my favorite of the nine symphonies.

Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 24, 2017, 03:51:18 AMFor me at least, the 6th and 7th are the only two I can actually take seriously.....the other ones, don't really swing with me  :(

Yes, 6th and 7th are Beethoven's best in my opinion.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 25, 2017, 01:38:55 AM
I don't find that the 6th sounds particularly "romantic" as far as the actual sounds of the orchestra go.
Among the most "romantic" sounding orchestral Beethoven is the dungeon scene in Fidelio (especially the intro and Florestan's solo scene), then probably the intro of the 4th symphony, the first movement of the 9th symphony, the allegretto of the 7th. Then maybe some parts of the 6th but probably also other pieces, e.g. famous passage (basically the "second theme group) in the first movement of the fifth piano concerto that starts like a funeral march with pizzicato strings and is immediately transformed into the major with rather romantic sounding horns
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 25, 2017, 03:05:21 AM
Quote from: jessop on June 23, 2017, 11:55:17 PM
Here is an interesting unpopular opinion about music https://youtu.be/eYua80VEcBk

Opinion, not philosophy then?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 25, 2017, 03:39:41 AM
Quote from: nodogen on June 25, 2017, 03:05:21 AM
Opinion, not philosophy then?

It's still an opinion, is it not?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on June 25, 2017, 05:21:58 AM
Quote from: jessop on June 25, 2017, 03:39:41 AM
It's still an opinion, is it not?

It is that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 26, 2017, 02:36:12 AM
Quote from: nodogen on June 25, 2017, 05:21:58 AM
It is that.
Oh good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 26, 2017, 04:57:00 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 25, 2017, 01:38:55 AM
I don't find that the 6th sounds particularly "romantic" as far as the actual sounds of the orchestra go.
Among the most "romantic" sounding orchestral Beethoven is the dungeon scene in Fidelio (especially the intro and Florestan's solo scene), then probably the intro of the 4th symphony, the first movement of the 9th symphony, the allegretto of the 7th. Then maybe some parts of the 6th but probably also other pieces, e.g. famous passage (basically the "second theme group) in the first movement of the fifth piano concerto that starts like a funeral march with pizzicato strings and is immediately transformed into the major with rather romantic sounding horns

I would also add Egmont overture. It definitely sounds "romantic" to me. Also the Violin Concerto.

Edit: Wait, you don't find the 5th Symphony as "romantic"? The finale to me is so full of heroic struggle that often is seen as the very essence of "Romanticism".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 26, 2017, 05:59:12 AM
I tend to view Beethoven as a kind of ending for the Classical period. Several of his more chromatic works I tend to think are even more closely linked to what was going on in the latter half of the 18th century than they are to the music of Brahms, Liszt, Chopin, Wagner or any other composer whose music epitomises the later stylistic features in composition in the 19th century.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:22:13 AM
Medieval music is as good as the music of any other period. Granted, technically was not as developed as the music from later periods... but, in spirit, is equally profound... if not more... I'll take it any time over the too much hyped late romanticism!  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 08:09:37 AM
Exactly!  :)

It seems we are in the same frequency lately.  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 26, 2017, 09:06:10 AM
Quote from: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:22:13 AM
Medieval music is as good as the music of any other period. Granted, technically was not as developed as the music from later periods... but, in spirit, is equally profound... if not more...

Agreed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 26, 2017, 09:56:51 AM
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
Apparently things no-one disagrees with count as unpopular
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 26, 2017, 10:46:21 AM
Quote from: jessop on June 26, 2017, 05:59:12 AM
I tend to view Beethoven as a kind of ending for the Classical period. Several of his more chromatic works I tend to think are even more closely linked to what was going on in the latter half of the 18th century than they are to the music of Brahms, Liszt, Chopin, Wagner or any other composer whose music epitomises the later stylistic features in composition in the 19th century.
Beethoven is 100% a Classical composer in our modern division of the styles (confusingly, Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn were considered "romantics" in their time compared to the "classics" like CPE Bach, and Bach himself was considered a "romantic" in his own time as opposed to the "classicism" of his father JS... "baroque" was still an insult!)

He was completely unsympathetic to the new stylistic developments of about 1800 spearheaded by Rossini and Weber, decrying the empty melody-and-accompaniment textures and special orchestral effects (which he stole himself for Fidelio but never mind), believing the open-ended forms to be confusing, and considering the chromaticism to sap all pleasure in the music. Although he had a creative crisis at or about 1816 and wrote some works experimenting with Romantic ideas of cyclical form and dispensing with traditional layouts—An die ferne Geliebte, the piano sonata Op. 101 and the cello sonatas Op. 102—his later works, from the invigorating final fugue of Op. 102/2 and the Hammerklavier in particular, are more of a retrenchment in the Classical ideals of Mozart and Haydn combined with the compositional rigour of JS Bach and Handel, whom he revered. His late works were misunderstood not because they were too Romantic, but because they were too backward-looking: fugues, minuets, Bachian adagios played very slowly, all of the dissonances resulting from contrapuntal clashes instead of chromatic alterations for expressive effect. In Beethoven's time counterpoint was taught first and harmony later—around 1800 this was reversed, harmony being taught first and therefore being more instrumental in shaping the musical styles of the next generation, which were largely harmony-based. This change may have actually been instrumental in creating Romanticism.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 26, 2017, 11:12:41 AM
Quote from: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:22:13 AM
Medieval music is as good as the music of any other period. Granted, technically was not as developed as the music from later periods... but, in spirit, is equally profound... if not more... I'll take it any time over the too much hyped late romanticism!  :)

Ranking eras or styles seems pointless to me.  Of course Medieval music can be more profound than Late Romantic music.  It all depends on what one's looking for and what exemplars of each are chosen.

Incidentally, hi, I don't think we've had any discussions lately.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 26, 2017, 11:24:03 AM
Quote from: amw on June 26, 2017, 10:46:21 AM
Beethoven is 100% a Classical composer in our modern division of the styles ...

I also find that thinking of Beethoven as the ultimate classicist has more resonance than thinking of him as being in the vanguard of romanticism. The expansion of the musical language that he made was not associated with the increasing chromaticism of romantic harmony, but the use of contrapuntal and functional harmonic dissonance with ever more severity.

I imagine a time traveling Mozart hearing romantic music and thinking, "have they lost their minds?" but hearing late Beethoven and thinking, "how does he think he will get away with that?"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 26, 2017, 11:39:03 AM
I believe Haydn's only problem with the Eroica Symphony was that it was too loud. Otherwise, he was—apocryphally—fully supportive and thought that was the future of music, and it was time for him to step aside. His respect for the opera composers who prefigured Rossini and Weber, however (e.g. Paisiello, Cimarosa) seemed to be minimal.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 26, 2017, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:22:13 AM
Medieval music is as good as the music of any other period. Granted, technically was not as developed as the music from later periods... but, in spirit, is equally profound... if not more... I'll take it any time over the too much hyped late romanticism!  :)

The rhythmic complexity of the Ars Subtilior was not exceeded until the 20th century
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2017, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: amw on June 26, 2017, 10:46:21 AM
Beethoven is 100% a Classical composer in our modern division of the styles (confusingly, Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn were considered "romantics" in their time compared to the "classics" like CPE Bach, and Bach himself was considered a "romantic" in his own time as opposed to the "classicism" of his father JS... "baroque" was still an insult!)

He was completely unsympathetic to the new stylistic developments of about 1800 spearheaded by Rossini and Weber, decrying the empty melody-and-accompaniment textures and special orchestral effects (which he stole himself for Fidelio but never mind), believing the open-ended forms to be confusing, and considering the chromaticism to sap all pleasure in the music. Although he had a creative crisis at or about 1816 and wrote some works experimenting with Romantic ideas of cyclical form and dispensing with traditional layouts—An die ferne Geliebte, the piano sonata Op. 101 and the cello sonatas Op. 102—his later works, from the invigorating final fugue of Op. 102/2 and the Hammerklavier in particular, are more of a retrenchment in the Classical ideals of Mozart and Haydn combined with the compositional rigour of JS Bach and Handel, whom he revered. His late works were misunderstood not because they were too Romantic, but because they were too backward-looking: fugues, minuets, Bachian adagios played very slowly, all of the dissonances resulting from contrapuntal clashes instead of chromatic alterations for expressive effect. In Beethoven's time counterpoint was taught first and harmony later—around 1800 this was reversed, harmony being taught first and therefore being more instrumental in shaping the musical styles of the next generation, which were largely harmony-based. This change may have actually been instrumental in creating Romanticism.

Amen.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 26, 2017, 12:18:21 PM
Quote from: jessop on June 26, 2017, 05:59:12 AM
I tend to view Beethoven as a kind of ending for the Classical period. Several of his more chromatic works I tend to think are even more closely linked to what was going on in the latter half of the 18th century than they are to the music of Brahms, Liszt, Chopin, Wagner or any other composer whose music epitomises the later stylistic features in composition in the 19th century.

I agree, but not an unpopular opinion, although much of the confusion IMO stems from the overlap of Beethoven with the broader Romantic movement in the arts.  But musical romanticism really should be tied to the dissolution of the Sonata form and tonic-dominant polarity

so by this Beethoven is classical and so is Schubert
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 26, 2017, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 26, 2017, 12:18:21 PMso by this Beethoven is classical and so is Schubert

No disagreement there, regarding the structure of the music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on June 26, 2017, 12:48:27 PM
Quote from: amw on June 26, 2017, 10:46:21 AM
Beethoven is 100% a Classical composer in our modern division of the styles (confusingly, Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn were considered "romantics" in their time compared to the "classics" like CPE Bach, and Bach himself was considered a "romantic" in his own time as opposed to the "classicism" of his father JS... "baroque" was still an insult!)

He was completely unsympathetic to the new stylistic developments of about 1800 spearheaded by Rossini and Weber, decrying the empty melody-and-accompaniment textures and special orchestral effects (which he stole himself for Fidelio but never mind), believing the open-ended forms to be confusing, and considering the chromaticism to sap all pleasure in the music. Although he had a creative crisis at or about 1816 and wrote some works experimenting with Romantic ideas of cyclical form and dispensing with traditional layouts—An die ferne Geliebte, the piano sonata Op. 101 and the cello sonatas Op. 102—his later works, from the invigorating final fugue of Op. 102/2 and the Hammerklavier in particular, are more of a retrenchment in the Classical ideals of Mozart and Haydn combined with the compositional rigour of JS Bach and Handel, whom he revered. His late works were misunderstood not because they were too Romantic, but because they were too backward-looking: fugues, minuets, Bachian adagios played very slowly, all of the dissonances resulting from contrapuntal clashes instead of chromatic alterations for expressive effect. In Beethoven's time counterpoint was taught first and harmony later—around 1800 this was reversed, harmony being taught first and therefore being more instrumental in shaping the musical styles of the next generation, which were largely harmony-based. This change may have actually been instrumental in creating Romanticism.

Quote from: Scarpia on June 26, 2017, 11:24:03 AM
I also find that thinking of Beethoven as the ultimate classicist has more resonance than thinking of him as being in the vanguard of romanticism. The expansion of the musical language that he made was not associated with the increasing chromaticism of romantic harmony, but the use of contrapuntal and functional harmonic dissonance with ever more severity.

I imagine a time traveling Mozart hearing romantic music and thinking, "have they lost their minds?" but hearing late Beethoven and thinking, "how does he think he will get away with that?"

It sounds like you're saying that the way the counterpoint works in Beethoven's later music, it's like Bach at his most backward looking (massive dissonances resulting from voices in fugues clashing) and before. There are plenty of fugues in Beethoven's earlier music, is it true that the harmonies in them are more constrained (more like Händel and Mozart than Bach perhaps) ? It sounds true, but I've never explored the question.

What I find really interesting is the idea that Beethoven looked back, way back, in the final period. It makes me think of something I've heard several times but never seen substantiated - that the Missa Solemnis is somehow (?) inspired by Palestrina.

And then we have op 135
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2017, 12:49:46 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 23, 2017, 11:09:09 AM
You certainly have cultivated the typical discussion board psychosis to a tee. Wagner did not 'impose his views' on the music world. Maybe he would have wanted to, but he had no such power. He simply wrote his music (accompanied by some ill-considered tracts) and sent it out into the world. To the extent that subsequent composers were influenced by his work is on them, not Wagner.

He didn't simply send his music out into the world. He also wrote appalling racist hatchet jobs about composers he didn't like.

Some composers tried to avoid the politics of music, but Wagner was definitely not one of them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2017, 12:53:57 PM
As to Wagnerian literary works: I know one deliberately Wagnerian set of novels, The Gap by Stephen Donaldson. I like it a lot more than I like Wagner.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 26, 2017, 01:05:39 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 26, 2017, 12:49:46 PM
He didn't simply send his music out into the world. He also wrote appalling racist hatchet jobs about composers he didn't like.

Some composers tried to avoid the politics of music, but Wagner was definitely not one of them.

Maybe he wanted to impose his views on the world, but he had no such power, fortunately. To the extent that his aesthetic prevailed, it was the music, not the vile texts, that did it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2017, 01:10:54 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 26, 2017, 01:05:39 PM
Maybe he wanted to impose his views on the world, but he had no such power, fortunately. To the extent that his aesthetic prevailed, it was the music, not the vile texts, that did it.

You're basically trying to argue that propaganda has no effect. Given the enduring popularity of generating propaganda, I'm sceptical.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 26, 2017, 01:38:06 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:22:13 AM
Medieval music is as good as the music of any other period. Granted, technically was not as developed as the music from later periods... but, in spirit, is equally profound... if not more... I'll take it any time over the too much hyped late romanticism!  :)
There's a lot of Late Romanticism that doesn't get any hype at all, relative to composers like Perotin and Hildegard of Bingen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 26, 2017, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: amw on June 26, 2017, 10:46:21 AM
Beethoven is 100% a Classical composer in our modern division of the styles (confusingly, Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn were considered "romantics" in their time compared to the "classics" like CPE Bach, and Bach himself was considered a "romantic" in his own time as opposed to the "classicism" of his father JS... "baroque" was still an insult!)

He was completely unsympathetic to the new stylistic developments of about 1800 spearheaded by Rossini and Weber, decrying the empty melody-and-accompaniment textures and special orchestral effects (which he stole himself for Fidelio but never mind), believing the open-ended forms to be confusing, and considering the chromaticism to sap all pleasure in the music. Although he had a creative crisis at or about 1816 and wrote some works experimenting with Romantic ideas of cyclical form and dispensing with traditional layouts—An die ferne Geliebte, the piano sonata Op. 101 and the cello sonatas Op. 102—his later works, from the invigorating final fugue of Op. 102/2 and the Hammerklavier in particular, are more of a retrenchment in the Classical ideals of Mozart and Haydn combined with the compositional rigour of JS Bach and Handel, whom he revered. His late works were misunderstood not because they were too Romantic, but because they were too backward-looking: fugues, minuets, Bachian adagios played very slowly, all of the dissonances resulting from contrapuntal clashes instead of chromatic alterations for expressive effect. In Beethoven's time counterpoint was taught first and harmony later—around 1800 this was reversed, harmony being taught first and therefore being more instrumental in shaping the musical styles of the next generation, which were largely harmony-based. This change may have actually been instrumental in creating Romanticism.

Ha, yes, completely confirms my suspicions! Thank you for such an informative post. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:35:45 PM
It seems my opinion about late romanticism is quite unpopular... well, mission accomplished as per the thread premise  >:D

But, also, I  was just being  'provocative'... I love Brahms, particularly his late solo piano and chamber music... I find his symphonies and piano concertos a bit meh and dry, to be honest... I also like Mahler...

The composers I don't like are Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff... I admire the latter's skill, even his harmony is almost modernist sometimes... but I can't stand their exaggerated, to me, emotionality... tends to sound acted, fake, to me... emotions have to be natural, intrinsic, subtle, they just flow, like in Brahms' piano and clarinet sonatas... of course, others may perceive that the emotions in those composers are just fine... well, live and let live...

As for Wagner, I respect his place and importance in music history... I also like some of his music... but I don't really care about all the teutonic, norse, etc., stuff... also the dramas about gods, heroes... meh
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:42:25 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 26, 2017, 11:57:25 AM
The rhythmic complexity of the Ars Subtilior was not exceeded until the 20th century

I knew this was going to be mentioned... and... you are, of course, right... but you will agree that Ars Subtilior was a very particular movement at the very end of the middle ages... my comment was referring more to the standard repertoire in medieval music.

On the other hand, as everything in the middle ages, the theory behind the music was highly rationalized and systematic...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 26, 2017, 08:24:01 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 26, 2017, 06:35:45 PM

As for Wagner, I respect his place and importance in music history... I also like some of his music... but I don't really care about all the teutonic, norse, etc., stuff... also the dramas about gods, heroes... meh


They're not *about* gods and heroes :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 26, 2017, 08:29:11 PM
Aleazk you have mentioned your disdain for Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky, but you have never told me what you think of Schreker

https://www.youtube.com/v/XxKWG1K29v0
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 26, 2017, 10:43:58 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on June 26, 2017, 01:10:54 PM
You're basically trying to argue that propaganda has no effect. Given the enduring popularity of generating propaganda, I'm sceptical.

Propaganda is manipulative literature published by a government or institution to further its goals. Propaganda can be very effective. Wagner pamphlets do not meet the definition.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 12:20:53 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 26, 2017, 10:43:58 PM
Propaganda is manipulative literature published by a government or institution to further its goals.

Um, no.

Quote from: Merriam-Webster
Definition of propaganda

    1
    capitalized :  a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions

    2
    :  the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

    3
    :  ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also :  a public action having such an effect

Wagner's prose fits in #2 and #3 to a tee.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 27, 2017, 12:53:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 12:20:53 AM
Um, no.

Wagner's prose fits in #2 and #3 to a tee.
Not really, as far as definition #2 is concerned....Richard Wagner's pesudo-philosophical or political writings (objetiionable--to put it mildly--as they are) did not further the cause of any organisation or institution, only his own. Wagner was clearly averse to belonging to any political party or similar organisation. This, of course, does not apply to his cronies at Bayreuth (particularly after his death), with all the stuff surrounding the völkisch movement, the Bayreuther Blätter and,a bit later on, Houston Stewart Chamberlain (not to mention Winifred--who was born after Wagner's death). And it might be worth pointing out that Bayreuth circle's only (AFAIK) effort to actually get legislation passed in the Reichstag, i.e. a bill to extend the "protection" of Parsifal once the coyright expired in 1913, was a resounding failure (fortunately IMHO).

At the risk of repeating myself, I think people should realize that the concept of "wagnerism" as an artistic movement actually originated mainly in France, starting with Baudelaire, and is essentially cosmopolitan in outlook (as, I daresay, was Wagner himself).

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 12:59:42 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 27, 2017, 12:53:05 AM
Not really, as far as definition #2 is concerned....Richard Wagner's pesudo-philosophical or political writings (objetiionable--to put it mildly--as they are) did not further the cause of any organisation or institution, only his own.

Precisely what definition #2 says: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person --- helping his own person (and cause) and injuring other persons (such as Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer). Fitting in to a tee.  :)

Quote from: ritter on June 27, 2017, 12:53:05 AM
Wagner was clearly averse to belonging to any political party or similar organisation.

That's because he was his own party.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2017, 05:04:23 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 26, 2017, 10:43:58 PM
Propaganda is manipulative literature

That part of your statement, I can accept. The bit after that, I disagree with as explained by Florestan.

They wouldn't call it "government propaganda" if it had to be from government to meet the definition of propaganda.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 05:27:21 AM
The definition Jeffrey gave is too broad, especially how broadly some of you interpret cause. "Fossil feathers have been found." That statement falls within clause 2.  "Advance ticket sales start tomorrow." So does that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 27, 2017, 05:28:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 12:59:42 AM
... and injuring other persons (such as Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer). Fitting in to a tee.  :)

Well, concerning Meyerbeer, Wagner made some unacceptable comments (aside from the fact that his personal behaviour towards Meyerbeer was quite beyond the pale), but there ar many (me included) who do see some valid artistic points in Wagner's attacks on his senior (attacks that can also be applied to a work like Rienzi, mind you). The idea that Wagner's invectives are tainted by unacceptable (I repeat) anti-semitism does not mean that the works under attack are not among the cheapeast aand hollowest of the operatic repertoire (and yes, I know many of them--from Il crociato in Egitto to Vasco da Gama a.k.a L'Africaine).

In the case of Mendelssohn, we're talking a completely different league, of course.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 05:33:58 AM
Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 05:42:40 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 05:33:58 AM
Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output

Hard to beat Handel for tunes tbh.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2017, 05:45:33 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 05:33:58 AM
Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output

The case can be made!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 27, 2017, 05:48:11 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 05:42:40 AM
Hard to beat Handel for tunes tbh.
He stole so many of them that with Handel one probably gets the best of almost a dozen high/late baroque composers (many not that well known, like Keiser).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 06:03:40 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 27, 2017, 05:28:18 AM
Well, concerning Meyerbeer, Wagner made some unacceptable comments (aside from the fact that his personal behaviour towards Meyerbeer was quite beyond the pale), but there ar many (me included) who do see some valid artistic points in Wagner's attacks on his senior (attacks that can also be applied to a work like Rienzi, mind you). The idea that Wagner's invectives are tainted by unacceptable (I repeat) anti-semitism does not mean that the works under attack are not among the cheapeast aand hollowest of the operatic repertoire (and yes, I know many of them--from Il crociato in Egitto to Vasco da Gama a.k.a L'Africaine).

In the case of Mendelssohn, we're talking a completely different league, of course.

But that's exactly the idea behind Wagner's self-serving propaganda: to promote and impose to the exclusion of all others a frame of reference within which Meyerbeer's works can be described precisely as cheap and shallow. He rabidly hated French Grand Opera, ergo it must have been by definition cheap and shallow. Face it honestly, my friend: his musical ideology was simple (better said, simplistic): whatever he liked was good, whatever he disliked was bad and he was unwilling or unable to have it any other way. That Meyerbeer had different goals and operated within a different cultural and social context (one in which Grand Opera was perfectly fine and worthy) seems to have not crossed his mind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 06:09:31 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 05:42:40 AM
Hard to beat Handel for tunes tbh.

Yes but Scarlatti shredded him in a harpsichord duel ;)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on June 27, 2017, 06:15:19 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 05:33:58 AM
Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output
Hard to disagree with that...¡y viva España!  ;)

I was revisting some of the keyboard sonatas the other day, and was struck by exactly that, their captivating lyricism.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 05:33:58 AM
Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era

Undoubtedly amongst the most lyrical. THE most lyrical? I don't think so. Restricting myself to solo keyboard only, JS Bach, Rameau, Handel, F. Couperin make for a very tough competition --- when played on the piano, that is, which is also valid for Scarlatti himself. When played on the harpsichord, lyrical is the last word that comes to my mind with respect to all of them. And this is my "unpopular opinion" of today.  :laugh:



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on June 27, 2017, 10:57:36 AM
(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-the-sound-of-the-harpsichord-resembles-that-of-a-bird-cage-played-with-toasting-forks-thomas-beecham-324292.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on June 27, 2017, 11:07:29 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 06:03:40 AMFace it honestly, my friend: his musical ideology was simple (better said, simplistic): whatever he liked was good, whatever he disliked was bad and he was unwilling or unable to have it any other way.

Sounds like he would fit in here.

It seems to me that most composers that expressed themselves extra-musically routinely excoriated other composers and styles of music. I see nothing unusual the fact that Wagner engaged in this, although the anti-semitic elements of his writings are particularly repugnant. Anti-semitism was part of European culture, although Wagner seems to have gone well beyond merely accepting the prevailing bias of the society in which he lived. But then again, he was a despicable man of low morality and behaved dishonorably even towards people who regarded themselves as their friends.

As to whether Wagner's writings are propaganda, I don't find a semantic argument particularly interesting, but it seems to me that what he was doing was ridiculing his rivals. Propaganda involves deliberate creation of a comprehensive narrative that is mean't to manipulate a target audience. Wagner's pamphleteering was narrower in scope.
   
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 11:31:47 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 27, 2017, 10:57:36 AM
(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-the-sound-of-the-harpsichord-resembles-that-of-a-bird-cage-played-with-toasting-forks-thomas-beecham-324292.jpg)

True enough of the harpsichords of the era actually.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 11:41:48 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 27, 2017, 11:07:29 AM
It seems to me that most composers that expressed themselves extra-musically routinely excoriated other composers and styles of music.

This might be true, the difference being that none of them except the egomaniac Wagner dreamt about, and actively propagandized for, all other styles of music being forever supplanted by their own.


QuoteAnti-semitism was part of European culture

What European culture are you referring to? The one in which Meyerbeer, Offenbach, Henri Herz or Wieniawski were worshipped by their audience? The one in which Ignaz Moscheles, Moritz Moszkowski, Heinrich Wilhelm Ernst or Joseph Joachim were the darlings of both the audience and the press? The one in which Felix Mendelssohn was hailed as a hero in UK and remains to this day a cultural icon of the Victorian Age? The one in which Ferdinand David became concertmaster of the Gewandhaus at the tender age of 25? The one in which Anton Rubinstein founded the Saint Petersburg Conservatory and his brother Nikolai founded the Moscow Conservatory? Or maybe the one in which Benjamin Disraeli was prime-minister of the UK?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
Here is one by this Jonathan Dore commenting on a blog:

The entirety of black commercial pop music (I use that term in its most generic sense to encompass all song-based popular/commercial music), including all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, is fundamentally based on the cultural appropriation of the European invention, unique in the history of human music, of diatonic functional harmony. Nothing remotely like it is indigenous to any African, Asian, or New World culture.

Is anyone complaining? Of course not. It's Europe's gift to the world.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 11:56:21 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 27, 2017, 11:07:29 AM
As to whether Wagner's writings are propaganda, I don't find a semantic argument particularly interesting, but it seems to me that what he was doing was ridiculing his rivals. Propaganda involves deliberate creation of a comprehensive narrative that is mean't to manipulate a target audience. Wagner's pamphleteering was narrower in scope.

Quoting a good friend of mine: No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on June 27, 2017, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
The entirety of black commercial pop music (I use that term in its most generic sense to encompass all song-based popular/commercial music), including all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, is fundamentally based on the cultural appropriation of the European invention, unique in the history of human music, of diatonic functional harmony. Nothing remotely like it is indigenous to any African, Asian, or New World culture.


Hmmm:

"[T]he analytic study in this chapter [Chapter 1, pages 3-62 in Early Jazz: Its Roots and Musical Development] shows that every musical element – rhythm, harmony, melody, timbre, and the basic forms of jazz – is essentially African in background and derivation."

Gunther Schuller
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2017, 12:19:54 PM
And of course, the phrase all of jazz is very nearly as worthless as all of classical music.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 01:07:18 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
Here is one by this Jonathan Dore commenting on a blog:

The entirety of black commercial pop music (I use that term in its most generic sense to encompass all song-based popular/commercial music), including all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, is fundamentally based on the cultural appropriation of the European invention, unique in the history of human music, of diatonic functional harmony. Nothing remotely like it is indigenous to any African, Asian, or New World culture.

Is anyone complaining? Of course not. It's Europe's gift to the world.


If popular music and jazz were stuck in the European functional harmonic system, they would never have developed their most interesting features, some of which they had from the beginning.

I agree that functional harmony is unique.  I disagree that it's the sine qua non of harmonic practice, and I should think that the richness of both the popular and the classical traditions in the 20th century (which often drew inspiration from each other) should be enough to discredit such an idea.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on June 27, 2017, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
Here is one by this Jonathan Dore commenting on a blog:

The entirety of black commercial pop music (I use that term in its most generic sense to encompass all song-based popular/commercial music), including all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, is fundamentally based on the cultural appropriation of the European invention, unique in the history of human music, of diatonic functional harmony. Nothing remotely like it is indigenous to any African, Asian, or New World culture.

Is anyone complaining? Of course not. It's Europe's gift to the world.

As unpopular an opinion these days as unashamed white supremacy. Oh, wait...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 01:13:58 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 27, 2017, 01:09:26 PM
As unpopular an opinion these days as unashamed white supremacy. Oh, wait...

Yes, unfortunately, that does seem to be gaining ground.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 02:56:05 PM
Andrei baited the hook and caught some fine fish I see.

Dore's quote does not say, as some seem to imply, that the ONLY source for black popular music is diatonic functional harmony. It says that it uses it. This quote, which Andrei got from me, was part of a discussion of what a foolish notion "cultural appropriation " is. The context was someone objecting to a white person even quoting a black pop performer. That was, we were lectured, cultural appropriation. (The exact bit quoted, in its entirety was 'As Beyoncé says  "To the left, to the left"') That actually happened. Dore was pointing out how selective and baseless that complaint was by noting, correctly, that commercial pop music is based on diatonic harmony. As it is. Does anyone deny it? Ellington observed of jazz that it was a fusion of black rhythms with white theory. That is the same as what Dore is saying on jazz. But Dore's point holds a fortiori for rock music, the kind which was quoted. And so it too, under the rubric of that objection, would itself be objectionable. The truth is whites and blacks influence each other, and that's a good thing. (He must be a white supremacist! )

Andrei knew he'd get people beating their breasts about how racist others are, how unracist they are. Without context, and without a basis in the text. I'd ask those who called it "white supremacy" if they feel chastened , but I know they won't be.

Congratulations Andrei, on a good haul. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 06:09:45 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 02:56:05 PM
Andrei baited the hook and caught some fine fish I see.

Dore's quote does not say, as some seem to imply, that the ONLY source for black popular music is diatonic functional harmony. It says that it uses it.

No, it says that functional harmony is the foundation of popular music and jazz, which is misleading at best and false at worst.  Later on in this post you confuse diatonicism with functional harmony; functional harmony is a concern of European music from roughly 1600-1900.  No other culture anywhere, including present day America and Europe, has given a damn about using the dominant-tonic relationship as the only possible relationship for closure.  No other culture has been so obsessive about voice leading and the avoidance of any dissonant intervals without resolution.  Why should we take an exception as normative, except to assert some kind of false superiority?

Commercial pop music is indeed based on diatonicism, but it's not functionally tonal.  Why does that matter, and how should that connect it to Europe in particular?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 07:05:44 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 06:09:45 PM
No, it says that functional harmony is the foundation of popular music and jazz, which is misleading at best and false at worst.  Later on in this post you confuse diatonicism with functional harmony; functional harmony is a concern of European music from roughly 1600-1900.  No other culture anywhere, including present day America and Europe, has given a damn about using the dominant-tonic relationship as the only possible relationship for closure.  No other culture has been so obsessive about voice leading and the avoidance of any dissonant intervals without resolution.  Why should we take an exception as normative, except to assert some kind of false superiority?

Commercial pop music is indeed based on diatonicism, but it's not functionally tonal.  Why does that matter, and how should that connect it to Europe in particular?

Remove the "functionally tonal" then, just for argument's sake. You admit the diatonic part is right then? So how does that disprove Dore's contention that there is "cultural appropriation ", that is influence? It doesn't. It concedes he is right. So essentially you are left saying that "oh he's wrong about the dominant, what a white supremacist he must be".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 07:22:55 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 06:09:45 PM
No, it says that functional harmony is the foundation of popular music and jazz, which is misleading at best and false at worst.  Later on in this post you confuse diatonicism with functional harmony; functional harmony is a concern of European music from roughly 1600-1900.  No other culture anywhere, including present day America and Europe, has given a damn about using the dominant-tonic relationship as the only possible relationship for closure.  No other culture has been so obsessive about voice leading and the avoidance of any dissonant intervals without resolution.  Why should we take an exception as normative, except to assert some kind of false superiority?

Commercial pop music is indeed based on diatonicism, but it's not functionally tonal.  Why does that matter, and how should that connect it to Europe in particular?

Once more, let's see if we can get the logic understood.

A says "White people cannot quote black pop musicians. It's cultural appropriation."
D says, "Let's have a little consistency. Black pop music relies a lot on ideas borrowed from whites."

Tell me exactly why D is a white supremacist? In your answer explain why D can't be Duke Ellington.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 06:09:45 PM
No, it says that functional harmony is the foundation of popular music and jazz, which is misleading at best and false at worst.  Later on in this post you confuse diatonicism with functional harmony; functional harmony is a concern of European music from roughly 1600-1900.  No other culture anywhere, including present day America and Europe, has given a damn about using the dominant-tonic relationship as the only possible relationship for closure.  No other culture has been so obsessive about voice leading and the avoidance of any dissonant intervals without resolution.  Why should we take an exception as normative, except to assert some kind of false superiority?

Commercial pop music is indeed based on diatonicism, but it's not functionally tonal.  Why does that matter, and how should that connect it to Europe in particular?

I dont understand.  all classic jazz and blues is funtionally tonal the ii-V-I is the bedrock of jazz and what about 12-bar blues?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 08:40:56 PM
Not an unpopular opinion, but all American popular music is a fusion of African and European traditions.  Minstrelsy is the core and foundation of all white American popular music
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 08:49:58 PM
People in Indonesia could say that the lack of complex polyrhythms and microtones in the standard repertoire of western "white music" makes it inferior to the supreme achievement of humanity that is Indonesian Gamelan music.

Of course, if we value our music by our own standars (which are, casually, the good points in our own music, like complex polyphony and  functional harmony), then it always is going to be "superior"...

These type of hypes and comparisons leave me cold, to be honest... I really don''t think functional harmony is the supreme achievement of humanity in music...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
Oh, those nasty americans appropiate the culture from the pure europe... oh, wait, are we in the epoch of the independence wars of the american states from europe?  ::)

By now, 200 years later, western culture concerns all of the western civilization, i.e., both europe and america (the whole of the continent, not just the u.s.. oh wait, are we the rest of non u.s america also appropiators?).

The opinion expressed by dore is falacious... with that reasoning, we appropiated the press too, the glasses, the penicillin? America is in many senses an extension of european culture to other geographies by the european themselves, doh, massive immigration...

Black americans are an intrinsic part of america, therefore they are part of its modern western culture and its development... to segregate their culture is just pure racism... makes me want to vomit that in the 21th century we still have to read that kind of stu*id sh*t.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 09:07:18 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
I dont understand.  all classic jazz and blues is funtionally tonal the ii-V-I is the bedrock of jazz and what about 12-bar blues?

The use of chords rooted on those degrees in various formations is used, yes; the system of tonal functionality where dissonances have specific resolutions and there is a hierarchy of functions is not.  In jazz and blues music the "tonic" chord is very often a dominant seventh chord, which would require resolution in functional harmony.  Why ignore the uniqueness of these styles in order to make them fit into a different system?

There's a confusion here between the generic use of "harmonic function" to refer to the use of diatonic triads, regardless of how they're used, and the system of hierarchies that characterized the common practice.  The latter is "functional harmony."  I don't think there's anything superior about functional harmony, it's just a way of describing a specific practice.

If anything, functional harmony is inferior, because it fails to deal with the vast majority of harmonic types and has a limited palette of stable sonorities.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinionsy be
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 09:07:18 PM
The use of chords rooted on those degrees in various formations is used, yes; the system of tonal functionality where dissonances have specific resolutions and there is a hierarchy of functions is not.  In jazz and blues music the "tonic" chord is very often a dominant seventh chord, which would require resolution in functional harmony.  Why ignore the uniqueness of these styles in order to make them fit into a different system?

There's a confusion here between the generic use of "harmonic function" to refer to the use of diatonic triads, regardless of how they're used, and the system of hierarchies that characterized the common practice.  The latter is "functional harmony."  I don't think there's anything superior about functional harmony, it's just a way of describing a specific practice.

If anything, functional harmony is inferior, because it fails to deal with the vast majority of harmonic types and has a limited palette of stable sonorities.

You are using the term in an idiosyncratic way.  functional harmony is simply that chords have a harmonic function, not that all the rules of 19th century voice leading are followed.  Jazz theory differentiates between functional and non functional harmony - bebop uses functional harmony whereas most modal jazz does not (they ma
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 09:15:11 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
I dont understand.  all classic jazz and blues is funtionally tonal the ii-V-I is the bedrock of jazz and what about 12-bar blues?
Indeed. I'm not a musician but this description of "diatonic functional harmony" seems to fit one whole hell of a lot of pop music

http://www.franksinger.com/Amusic/functional_harm.htm (http://www.franksinger.com/Amusic/functional_harm.htm)

It also matches the little bit of music theory I can remember being taught.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 09:18:00 PM
Gulda once told Erroll Garner that his music reminded him to Debussy... to which Garner replied "who's that guy?"  :laugh:

Jazzists invented and discovered many things by themselves.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinionsy be
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
You are using the term in an idiosyncratic way.  functional harmony is simply that chords have a harmonic function, not that all the rules of 19th century voice leading are followed.  Jazz theory differentiates between functional and non functional harmony - bebop uses functional harmony whereas most modal jazz does not (they ma

I know jazz has its own ideas about how harmonies and progressions work, but the progressions in jazz are not those of the common practice, nor are those of the common practice the same as jazz harmony.  Functional harmony in the sense that was originally under discussion, as a European invention, is not the foundation of jazz music or popular music today.

Much of jazz practice is closer to things analyzed in classical terms as non-functional harmony, like Debussy or early Stravinsky, though, as aleazk notes, this doesn't imply any kind of influence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 09:24:05 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 09:07:18 PM
[The use of chords rooted on those degrees in various formations is used, yes; the system of tonal functionality where dissonances have specific resolutions and there is a hierarchy of functions is not.  In jazz and blues music the "tonic" chord is very often a dominant seventh chord, which would require resolution in functional harmony.  Why ignore the uniqueness of these styles in order to make them fit into a different system?

There's a confusion here between the generic use of "harmonic function" to refer to the use of diatonic triads, regardless of how they're used, and the system of hierarchies that characterized the common practice.  The latter is "functional harmony."  I don't think there's anything superior about functional harmony, it's just a way of describing a specific practice.

If anything, functional harmony is inferior, because it fails to deal with the vast majority of harmonic types and has a limited palette of stable sonorities.

Indeed... it seems we like europe when it is useful but we put under the carpet the details of it when they are not convenient to our agenda...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
Oh, those nasty americans appropiate the culture from the pure europe... oh, wait, are we in the epoch of the independence wars of the american states from europe?  ::)

By now, 200 years later, western culture concerns all of the western civilization, i.e., both europe and america (the whole of the continent, not just the u.s.. oh wait, are we the rest of non u.s america also appropiators?).

The opinion expressed by dore is falacious... with that reasoning, we appropiated the press too, the glasses, the penicillin? America is in many senses an extension of european culture to other geographies by the european themselves, doh, massive immigration...

Black americans are an intrinsic part of america, therefore they are part of its modern western culture and its development... to segregate their culture is just pure racism... makes me want to vomit that in the 21th century we still have to read that kind of stu*id sh*t.

Did you read my comment giving the context? Dore is NOT saying this was "cultural appropriation." He is NOT complaining about cultural appropriation. He is making the exact same point that you are in re glasses. He is criticizing the notion of cultural appropriation.  He is doing EXACTLY what you did with glasses. For the same reason.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 09:32:50 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
Did you read my comment giving the context? Dore is NOT saying this was "cultural appropriation." He is NOT complaining about cultural appropriation. He is making the exact same point that you are in re glasses. He is criticizing the notion of cultural appropriation.  He is doing EXACTLY what you did with glasses. For the same reason.

No... I saw it now... but even with that... his supposed counterexample to "black music supremacists" is based on a caricature of jazz, as Mahlerian and I have pointed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 09:39:27 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 09:32:50 PM
No... I saw it now... but even with that... his supposed help to black music is based on a caricature of jazz, as Mahlerian and I have pointed.

Well I think reasonable people can differ on whether pop commercial jazz is "based on" diatonic functional harmony or whether "based on" is too strong and it just plays an important roles in it (the link I gave is from a jazz musician btw), but I do not think you can sensibly insist that such a disagreement proves anyone is a white supremacist.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 09:42:37 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 09:23:33 PM
I know jazz has its own ideas about how harmonies and progressions work, but the progressions in jazz are not those of the common practice, nor are those of the common practice the same as jazz harmony.  Functional harmony in the sense that was originally under discussion, as a European invention, is not the foundation of jazz music or popular music today.

Much of jazz practice is closer to things analyzed in classical terms as non-functional harmony, like Debussy or early Stravinsky, though, as aleazk notes, this doesn't imply any kind of influence.

That is simply incorrect. Traditional jazz progressions (i.e. The ubitiquitous ii-V-I) are exactly the same as common practice, just that chord extensions color the harmony.    Jazz harmony throught the bebop period is strictly functional, only later with modal jazz did it start to resemble Debussy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinionsy be
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 09:55:15 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 09:42:37 PM
That is simply incorrect. Traditional jazz progressions (i.e. The ubitiquitous ii-V-I) are exactly the same as common practice, just that chord extensions color the harmony.    Jazz harmony throught the bebop period is strictly functional, only later with modal jazz did it start to resemble Debussy.

Traditional harmonic progressions in classical music are rooted in a specific treatment of voice leading and dissonance.  To add sevenths (major or minor, both are traditionally dissonant) to every chord and treat them as block sonorities is to break with the most basic principles of the common practice period, and not just bebop, but earlier forms of jazz treated chordal dissonances with far more freedom than any common practice composer would or could have.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:01:27 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 09:39:27 PM
Well I think reasonable people can differ on whether pop commercial jazz is "based on" diatonic functional harmony or whether "based on" is too strong and it just plays an important roles in it (the link I gave is from a jazz musician btw), but I do not think you can sensibly insist that such a disagreement proves anyone is a white supremacist.

Yes, I agree. The accusations about that were based on Florestan's out of context quote. To which, I have to say, in a forum like this we assume some degree of intellectual honesty... to quote something out of context is not congruent with that.

But, anyway, I think it was a bad example. To refute the black american supremacists one only has to say, doh, you are part of western america dude, not a pygmy singer...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:06:52 PM
If early jazz was just that same "old Brahms stuff" then I wonder what, composers like Ravel et al., could have found interesting about it 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:09:52 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2017, 09:55:15 PM
Traditional harmonic progressions in classical music are rooted in a specific treatment of voice leading and dissonance.  To add sevenths (major or minor, both are traditionally dissonant) to every chord and treat them as block sonorities is to break with the most basic principles of the common practice period, and not just bebop, but earlier forms of jazz treated chordal dissonances with far more freedom than any common practice composer would or could have.

Again either you don't understand jazz harmony or have your own idiosyncratic definition of functional harmony.  Functional harmony means just that- chords built in thirds based on notes within a key have specific tonal functions.  These functions are identical in jazz though the bebop era and in CP classical music.  What extensions or non harmonic tones are added to chords does not alter the function either in jazz or 19th century classical music.  A diatonic ii, ii7 or ii11 chord all have the same subdominant function.  Brahms and Schumann used more 7th and 9th chords and chromatic substitutions than Haydn but the music is still functional harmony. The same holds for bebop relative to Brahms
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:12:00 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:06:52 PM
If early jazz was just that same "old Brahms stuff" then I wonder what, composers like Ravel et al., could have found interesting about it

There is more to music than harmony

And it's not 'the same old Brahms stuff' (not sure where that came from). the innovations of jazz harmony through the bebop era were innovations in functional harmony.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:17:29 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:12:00 PM
There is more to music than harmony

But Ravel liked the harmony, the strange tensions, the harmonic shape of the melodies, etc.

I think Mahlerian just has a stricter definition of functional harmony than you and that, in my opinion, is a better description of what classical composers were doing. In a discussion like this one, about subtle harmonic differences in different styles, and precisely their merits and innovations, it's certainly more useful a definition like the one by Mahlerian. In other contexts we may relax it a bit, but certainly not in this particular discussion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:24:43 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:12:00 PM
There is more to music than harmony

And it's not 'the same old Brahms stuff' (not sure where that came from). the innovations of jazz harmony through the bebop era were innovations in functional harmony.

It's a quote by Elliott Carter which I found pertinent.

Anyway, it seems this discussion revolves about the following: at which point the tensions introduced by the colorations break the functionality of chords.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:24:43 PM
It's a quote by Elliott Carter which I found pertinent.

Anyway, it seems this discussion revolves about the following: at which point the tensions introduced by the colorations break the functionality of chords.

But jazz players (when playing standards and bebop) think and improvise based on chord function.  Functional harmony is the foundation of how Jazz improv and harmony is taught.  To argue against this one must claim to somehow have a special knowledge that beyond x level of chord extensions functional harmony ceases to exist counter to the beliefs of most of the people actually playing the music. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:48:18 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:39:51 PM
But jazz players (when playing standards and bebop) think and improvise based on chord function.  Functional harmony is the foundation of how Jazz improv and harmony is taught.  To argue against this one must claim to somehow have a special knowledge that beyond x level of chord extensions functional harmony ceases to exist counter to the beliefs of most of the people actually playing the music.

It's not about what they perceive, it's about how it compares to traditional harmony.

So, I went to my piano and played Brahms' famous intermezzo in A major, which is very rich in chord extensions. But, when they resolve, I noticed that they ALWAYS resolve to an unaltered major or minor triad...NEVER to a seventh chord. And, indeed, I just tried to resolve them to extended chords and sounded quite out of place in the general context of the piece.

Not to mention that Brahms' counterpoint there is delightfully designed to smoothly resolve the polyphonic texture into those common triads... so, this shows that he found that as quite fundamental, unlike early jazzists.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:59:09 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:48:18 PM
It's not about what they perceive, it's about how it compares to traditional harmony.

So, I went to my piano and played Brahms' famous intermezzo in A major, which is very rich in chord extensions. But, when they resolve, I noticed that they ALWAYS resolve to an unaltered major or minor triad...NEVER to a seventh chord. And, indeed, I just tried to resolve them to extended chords and sounded quite out of place in the general context of the piece.

Not to mention that Brahms' counterpoint there is delightfully designed to smoothly resolve the polyphonic texture into those common triads... so, this shows that he found that as quite fundamental, unlike early jazzists.

Sure and Brahms' chords would sound out of place in Haydn.  Are you arguing that chord functions cease to exist if you place a 7th or 9th on the final tonic chord in a cadence?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 11:18:24 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:59:09 PM
Sure and Brahms' chords would sound out of place in Haydn.  Are you arguing that chord functions cease to exist if you place a 7th or 9th on the final tonic chord in a cadence?

To Brahms? evidently! To the early jazz guys? Maybe yes, maybe not... "but hey, let's just do it because sounds fun!"

To modern jazzists and ears? Certainly not... but that's because decades of hearing those chords instead of pure triad resolutions...

Gosh! When I was a newbie to 20th century music but quite familiar with the core classical repertoire, I used to find Ravel extremely dissonant... now? I use him to calm my ears after an hour of electronic noise music (not that I find this music unpleasent, but you get the vibe).

Look, I quite get your point...and, from the point of view of modern jazz theory, you are right... I just think you are being a bit unfair to the actual history of all this... these theories are not scientific theories... they are developed, changed and reinterpreted as music, aesthetic values and aesthetic perceptions change in time.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2017, 11:44:04 PM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:01:27 PM
Yes, I agree. The accusations about that were based on Florestan's out of context quote. To which, I have to say, in a forum like this we assume some degree of intellectual honesty... to quote something out of context is not congruent with that.

A quote is by definition taken out of context.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 28, 2017, 12:36:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 27, 2017, 01:09:26 PM
As unpopular an opinion these days as unashamed white supremacy. Oh, wait...
To be fair, this isn't unashamed white supremacy, it's just a very loud dog whistle to attract white supremacists.

Also: the only forms of "black popular music" (lol) that was based on functional harmony were swing and its successor bop, basing improvisation on I-V-IV patterns and the 8 and 12 bar blues and so on, and these were created largely to appeal to white as well as black audiences and remove the stigma of jazz as being "n****r music". (Didn't help; white supremacists just rebranded it "n****r-jew music")

With virtually everything else, functional diatonic harmony is not the bedrock of the style but an optional extra. Most modern pop songs I've heard eschew it and simply alternate between various diatonic chords (e.g. C, G, Am, F, etc) used nonfunctionally with the song capable of ending on any of them. Genres like rock and hip-hop often avoid triads altogether. The bedrock of these styles is, and always has been, beat and melody; and in a pinch, melody can slide.

Also, white people did not invent the common triads, nor do they have a monopoly on them. A song doesn't "owe" anything to white culture just because it has a C major chord in it. Africans use that chord too. Maybe get out of your parents' basement and go outside once in awhile Jimothy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 12:50:15 AM
I think that the whole "cultural appropriation" thing is foolish. (Obviously the culture of origin is not expropriated by the appropriation. When the Vikings switched from runes to the latin alphabet the people using the latin alphabet did not lose the use of that alphabet because now the Norse used it as well.) It is done all the time, mostly mutually beneficial and almost always an estimation of the part of culture that was "appropriated". I mean, all the "traditional" Jazz instruments are of European origin, not from Africa or the Southern US. Should the Belgians sue for cultural appropriation because Charlie Parker played Saxophone?

I also think that it is an abuse of the term "white supremacy" if someone points out the de facto world domination of Western ("white") culture.
(Of course many origins of "Western" culture stem from the Levante or generally the Mediterranean and those guys were not milky white like anglosaxons.)
The latter is just a fact whereas "white supremacy" is supposed to mean that someone in a diverse culture should have special privileges simply by being white or even worse "master race" stuff.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on June 28, 2017, 01:59:03 AM
Bolero is better without the jazz gestures, as in Boulez's recording.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 05:14:19 AM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 10:01:27 PM
Yes, I agree. The accusations about that were based on Florestan's out of context quote. To which, I have to say, in a forum like this we assume some degree of intellectual honesty... to quote something out of context is not congruent with that.


I think this is a bit unfair, confusing "out of context" and "without context". Florestan quoted without context. Any quotation is inherently shorn of some of its context, although context can be provided by for example supplying a narrative, as I did. But Florestan did not take it anyway at all. He made no comment. It was Brian and Mahlerian who "took" it, imposing a reading on it.  They did that while knowing nothing of the context, and read it in a way inconsistent with what it meant in context. I think that a bad habit. But it is not "taking out of context" either. That phrase implies to me that you selected the quotation for use, with mendacious intent, and neither Brian nor Mahlerian did.



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2017, 05:22:11 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2017, 09:39:27 PM
Well I think reasonable people can differ on whether pop commercial jazz is "based on" diatonic functional harmony or whether "based on" is too strong and it just plays an important roles in it (the link I gave is from a jazz musician btw), but I do not think you can sensibly insist that such a disagreement proves anyone is a white supremacist.

Just a note that the blogger wrote all jazz.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 05:28:53 AM
Online shopping is based on several important technologies and standards: transactional databases, reliable communication protocols like TCP/IP and HTML, encryption, object oriented programming, and machine virtualization.



At this point you might wonder why I imagine that this would be an unpopular opinion. But it is clear that many here think something can only be "based on" one thing. So it qualifies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2017, 05:30:53 AM
There is much in the full statement which practically invites the digression;  but all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, is fundamentally based on ... diatonic functional harmony is a heckuva broad brush, and problematic in its own right.

To keep to my own point:  all of jazz / is fundamentally based on / diatonic functional harmony can be reasonably disputed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2017, 05:33:39 AM
I don't see why everyone here, every man jack of us, cannot simply agree that all of is erroneous, and would be easily emended.  Instead, the complaint is that those objecting are fallaciously taking the blogger to mean "based on only one thing."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 05:36:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2017, 05:22:11 AM
Just a note that the blogger wrote all jazz.
Actually not. He actually said
"The entirety of black commercial pop music (I use that term in its most generic sense to encompass all song-based popular/commercial music), including all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, ..." So he did not say "all jazz" he said "all of [a list]". The "all of" refers to the contents of the list, not the items in the list. Example: You decide to post "They're crooks, all of Trump, his cabinet, his family,..."  you are not calling Trump's left foot a crook, nor does his left foot need to be a crook for your statement to be true; if I could prove his left foot had an alibi at the time it wouldn't make you wrong.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 05:39:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2017, 05:30:53 AM
There is much in the full statement which practically invites the digression;  but all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, is fundamentally based on ... diatonic functional harmony is a heckuva broad brush, and problematic in its own right.

To keep to my own point:  all of jazz / is fundamentally based on / diatonic functional harmony can be reasonably disputed.

This is a misreading Karl; see my previous comment. But as to your remark whether this can be reasonably disputed. It can. Can it be discussed without cries of "white supremacist" is the more interesting question.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2017, 05:52:41 AM
Quote from: aleazk on June 27, 2017, 09:18:00 PM
Gulda once told Erroll Garner that his music reminded him to Debussy... to which Garner replied "who's that guy?"  :laugh:

May be pertinent, or may not:  less than 100% of the people who are familiar with the phrase "star-crossed lovers" know that it was written by Shakespeare.

Heck, less than 100% of the people who are familiar with the phrase "Romeo and Juliet" know that it was written by Shakespeare  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 06:13:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2017, 05:52:41 AM
May be pertinent, or may not:  less than 100% of the people who are familiar with the phrase "star-crossed lovers" know that it was written by Shakespeare.

Heck, less than 100% of the people who are familiar with the phrase "Romeo and Juliet" know that it was written by Shakespeare  8)
Yes. Garner heard music, went to concerts, worked with composers who would know Debussy etc. Once an influence is abroad in the culture you can't really tell exactly where it went. And in turn you can't really know everyone who influenced Debussy.  There was a similar story about Brian Wilson being told he sounded like Faure.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on June 28, 2017, 06:46:14 AM
Quote from: amw on June 28, 2017, 12:36:08 AM
Also, white people did not invent the common triads, nor do they have a monopoly on them. A song doesn't "owe" anything to white culture just because it has a C major chord in it. Africans use that chord too.
This reminds me of the argument a GMGer - I can't remember who exactly but I think he disappeared years ago - used to make about religion, that because Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount, all the western world's ideas about being kind to other people came from Christianity and we should all acknowledge our debt to Christianity for some of the most basic moral precepts which underlie every society.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2017, 07:01:36 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 28, 2017, 06:46:14 AM
This reminds me of the argument a GMGer - I can't remember who exactly but I think he disappeared years ago - used to make about religion, that because Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount, all the western world's ideas about being kind to other people came from Christianity and we should all acknowledge our debt to Christianity for some of the most basic moral precepts which underlie every society.

A flawed argument, indeed  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 07:11:58 AM
Actually most of the pacifist stuff from the Sermon on the Mount are not at all precepts that underlie "every society". In praxis it often obviously did not underlie Christendom either (although being continuously present in the holy book and official teaching).

But Nietzsche who knew a little bit about history did not single out Judaeo-Christian morality and its secularized successors without a reason as (in his view) toxic, wimpy and snivelling "slave morality". This would not have made any sense if this was the common universal morality and while Nietzsche's main foil was a "homeric" heroic ethics one could look into other cultures and would very often find similarly ruthless "warrior codes" that are not at all like either christianity (or modern Western morals).
Even Plato and the Stoics who were in many ways predecessors of christian-style morality would have been puzzled or even disgusted at the strong focus on pity for the weak that is expressed in the gospels.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2017, 07:14:09 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 07:11:58 AM
Actually most of the pacifist stuff from the Sermon on the Mount are not at all precepts that underlie "every society". In praxis it often obviously did not underlie Christendom either (although being continuously present in the holy book and official teaching).

Few American Evangelicals in our day take Blessed are the meek at all seriously, that is evident  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on June 28, 2017, 08:03:53 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 27, 2017, 10:59:09 PM
Sure and Brahms' chords would sound out of place in Haydn.  Are you arguing that chord functions cease to exist if you place a 7th or 9th on the final tonic chord in a cadence?

I think you're mistaking what I'm saying.  I'm not saying that the chords don't operate in a specific way in jazz harmony, I'm saying that jazz harmony is separate from, while related to, the system of relationships, hierarchies, and so forth that is called functional harmony.  Theorists will point to chords acting as dominants, pre-dominants, and tonics in music by Hindemith, Stravinsky, and Schoenberg, but the fact that such analyses can be made doesn't make the harmony common practice.

When Schoenberg said that consonance and dissonance were different in degree, not kind, this was truly radical, because it flew in the face of centuries of theory and practice.  A few critics at the time called him insane for saying it.  If someone ends a composition with a seventh chord (and not just one!), containing a tritone, and considers it a resolved tonic (there are some dominant endings in common practice), then surely there is some fundamental difference in the way function is understood.

That people today don't see Schoenberg's pronouncement as radical at all indicates a complete sea change in both thought and practice since then.

I understand that jazz theorists use the term differently and to describe other things, but in classical theory, functional harmony means the harmonic practice of the common practice period, with all of its rules.

All of this is beside the point, as amw pointed out, because triads are not solely the creation of Europe, and nor are diatonic scales.  As I've been saying, the only thing that is, is the tonal harmony of the common practice, and it's simply wrong to say that that is the underpinning of popular music today or jazz.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 09:05:33 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 07:11:58 AM
Actually most of the pacifist stuff from the Sermon on the Mount are not at all precepts that underlie "every society". In praxis it often obviously did not underlie Christendom either (although being continuously present in the holy book and official teaching).

But Nietzsche who knew a little bit about history did not single out Judaeo-Christian morality and its secularized successors without a reason as (in his view) toxic, wimpy and snivelling "slave morality". This would not have made any sense if this was the common universal morality and while Nietzsche's main foil was a "homeric" heroic ethics one could look into other cultures and would very often find similarly ruthless "warrior codes" that are not at all like either christianity (or modern Western morals).
Even Plato and the Stoics who were in many ways predecessors of christian-style morality would have been puzzled or even disgusted at the strong focus on pity for the weak that is expressed in the gospels.

Amen!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2017, 07:01:36 AM
A flawed argument, indeed  8)

In think it was David Ross (whom I dearly miss) who made that argument, and it is much less flawed than it might appear at first sight. Jo's post is a very good start for pondering it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 09:41:49 AM
Of course not all other societies were warrior/caste/robber societies. (Although the homeric heroics culture so beloved by Nietzsche clearly was. When Ulysses meets Agamemnon's shade at the brink of the underworld the former is surprised to see the victor of Troy among the shades of the dead and asks if he met his misfortune while sacking a city or stealing the herds of some other petty ruler... this would have been bad luck but par for the course and not really dishonorable. Instead it was far worse: Agamemnon was murdered by his wife and her lover...)

Confucius has the Golden Rule (but note that the gospel always goes further than the Golden Rule, the latter was common rabbinic teaching at that time), there might be some buddhist teachings that also stress pity.

But all karmic religions tend to have a pitiless aspect (for obvious reasons) and a lot of this is very common human thinking. There is one story in the gospels where the bystanders ask about a lame man whether this person had sinned or maybe his parents, so the common attitude was that sickness was often a punishment for sin, even in Judaism. Jesus denies the whole idea of karmic connection and heals the guy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 09:49:43 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 09:41:49 AM
Of course not all other societies were warrior/caste/robber societies. (Although the homeric heroics culture so beloved by Nietzsche clearly was. When Ulysses meets Agamennon at the brink of the underworld the former is surprised to see the victor of Troy among the shades of the dead and asks if he met his misfortune while sacking a city or stealing the herds of some other petty ruler... this would have been bad luck but par for the course and not really dishonorable. Instead it was far worse: Agamemnon was murdered by his wife and her lover...)

Confucius has the Golden Rule (but note that the gospel always goes further than the Golden Rule, the latter was common rabbinic teaching at that time), there might be some buddhist teachings that also stress pity.

But all karmic religions tend to have a pitiless aspect (for obvious reasons) and a lot of this is very common human thinking. There is one story in the gospels where the bystanders ask about a lame man whether this person had sinned or maybe his parents, so the common attitude was that sickness was often a punishment for sin, even in Judaism. Jesus denies the whole idea of karmic connection and heals the guy.

Hear, hear!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2017, 10:17:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 09:26:10 AM
In think it was David Ross (whom I dearly miss) who made that argument, and it is much less flawed than it might appear at first sight.

I don't quite see how we can rationally argue that in our day, all the Western world's ideas about being kind to other people came from Christianity, only partly because of all the syncretism.  And while it is tempting to cast the point back to an earlier age, I am not sure we find a point in history where the argument is clean.  There is a kind of Triumphalism at work in there.  And our much-esteemed David Ross also (IIRC) endorsed the (as I am afraid I see it) jingoistically triumphalist religion which is American Exceptionalism.

All the Western world's ideas about being kind?  All?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 28, 2017, 10:27:26 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 12:50:15 AM
I think that the whole "cultural appropriation" thing is foolish. (Obviously the culture of origin is not expropriated by the appropriation. When the Vikings switched from runes to the latin alphabet the people using the latin alphabet did not lose the use of that alphabet because now the Norse used it as well.) It is done all the time, mostly mutually beneficial and almost always an estimation of the part of culture that was "appropriated". I mean, all the "traditional" Jazz instruments are of European origin, not from Africa or the Southern US. Should the Belgians sue for cultural appropriation because Charlie Parker played Saxophone?

I also think that it is an abuse of the term "white supremacy" if someone points out the de facto world domination of Western ("white") culture.
(Of course many origins of "Western" culture stem from the Levante or generally the Mediterranean and those guys were not milky white like anglosaxons.)
The latter is just a fact whereas "white supremacy" is supposed to mean that someone in a diverse culture should have special privileges simply by being white or even worse "master race" stuff.
Cultural appropriation is not generally a problem; it is simply rude and disrespectful when what is being appropriated is a cultural feature that is or was discouraged or punished in the appropriated-from. For example a white person in Germany wearing a keffiyeh or burqa, which they can do without negative consequences, whereas a middle eastern person wearing one will be seen as potentially a terrorist or encounter harassment etc. That's basically rubbing in your privilege and it's not a very nice thing to do. But if you want to be not very nice, I guess it's your call.

And it's not white supremacy to point out that white people have waged a successful war of conquest against the remainder of the world's cultures, no. But by implying that white culture is superior to other cultures, or responsible for the success of things that come from other cultures, one is basically supporting white supremacy. Also claiming all commercial jazz, rock and pop music to be "black" is a common axiom presented by white supremacists, although they usually use it to explain why music is terrible now and promoting the degeneration of society and they only listen to music with a pure European pedigree, such as singing the entirety of Das Ring der Nibelungen at the start of every KKK meeting, as they were forced to do until country music was invented in the 1950s.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 10:33:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2017, 10:17:40 AM
All the Western world's ideas about being kind?  All?

I'm going to pound you on this. The "all" you make such a fuss of is part of Brian's hostile characterization. It is not part of any argument made or quoted here. No-one actually made that claim from what I have seen presented here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 28, 2017, 10:39:47 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 09:41:49 AM
Of course not all other societies were warrior/caste/robber societies. (Although the homeric heroics culture so beloved by Nietzsche clearly was. When Ulysses meets Agamennon at the brink of the underworld the former is surprised to see the victor of Troy among the shades of the dead and asks if he met his misfortune while sacking a city or stealing the herds of some other petty ruler... this would have been bad luck but par for the course and not really dishonorable. Instead it was far worse: Agamemnon was murdered by his wife and her lover...)

Confucius has the Golden Rule (but note that the gospel always goes further than the Golden Rule, the latter was common rabbinic teaching at that time), there might be some buddhist teachings that also stress pity.

But all karmic religions tend to have a pitiless aspect (for obvious reasons) and a lot of this is very common human thinking. There is one story in the gospels where the bystanders ask about a lame man whether this person had sinned or maybe his parents, so the common attitude was that sickness was often a punishment for sin, even in Judaism. Jesus denies the whole idea of karmic connection and heals the guy.
The karmic attitude isn't particularly supported by Judaism either -- Job is ours and its message is basically that when bad shit happens, sometimes it's to totally good people for reasons beyond human comprehension (at least if we take God's answer to Job seriously, or more seriously than the story about Satan taking over God's throne for a day which might just be allegorical anyway). There is a lot of smiting one's enemies in Judaism, although they sometimes deserved it, but also a thread of belief that to save one life is to save an entire world, and plenty of teachings stressing empathy and peace. Of course we're talking multiple books spanning many centuries written by scholars of various persuasions who may have been influenced by other religious and philosophical traditions of their day.

Most Native American and Aboriginal Australian belief systems also seem to be fairly big on kindness, connection and communitarianism, but I'm hardly an expert and I know there are a few that aren't. Buddhism and Taoism are also pretty heavily focused on suffering and the reduction of it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on June 28, 2017, 10:45:05 AM
Quote from: amw on June 28, 2017, 10:27:26 AM...such as singing the entirety of Das Ring der Nibelungen at the start of every KKK meeting, as they were forced to do until country music was invented in the 1950s.


Klan membership peaked in the 1920s.  I knew country music was degenerate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
Quote from: amw on June 28, 2017, 10:27:26 AM
For example a white person in Germany wearing a keffiyeh or burqa, which they can do without negative consequences, whereas a middle eastern person wearing one will be seen as potentially a terrorist or encounter harassment etc.

You actually shot yourself in the right foot with this: the skin color of a person wearing a burqa cannot be identified without removing it.

Quote
by implying that white culture is superior to other cultures, or responsible for the success of things that come from other cultures, one is basically supporting white supremacy.

Let's take Errol Garner, who's been mentioned above. White culture is responsible for his success, in many ways: (1) it offered him the chance of learning to play the piano, (2) it offered him the venues where he could display his talent in public concerts, (3) it offered him recording facilities, (4) it offered him a cultural  environment in which recordings were cherished and sought after, and (5) it made him famous. I submit for your consideration that none of these would have happened had he been born and raised and living in, say, Camerun.

As for implying that white culture is superior to other cultures, I am reminded of the fuss Saul Below created by saying something to the effect of "show me the Proust and the Tolstoy of the Papuans and I'll be only too happy to read them".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on June 28, 2017, 10:57:16 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 10:33:25 AM
I'm going to pound you on this. The "all" you make such a fuss of is part of Brian's hostile characterization. It is not part of any argument made or quoted here. No-one actually made that claim from what I have seen presented here.
This is correctish; I have not presented evidence because I'm at work and my boss probably doesn't like that I'm even here posting this, let alone researching flame wars from 2009!

Quote from: amw on June 28, 2017, 10:27:26 AM
Cultural appropriation is not generally a problem; it is simply rude and disrespectful when what is being appropriated is a cultural feature that is or was discouraged or punished in the appropriated-from.
I'd be curious to get your thought on this. In food writing, we have a whole ton of "appropriation" arguments all the time, only more frequent nowadays, and it drives some people crazy. My own approach for writing about the local community has been to ask: (1) is the chef being respectful toward the culture? (2) does the culture have equal opportunity to present itself? (in a strict sense; variables like "who do investors want to bet on" and "is the chef famous" can muddy the waters) (3) is the food super delicious? And if, for instance, a white chef is making super delicious tacos while demonstrating respect for the culture and other taco makers, hey, awesome.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 11:02:32 AM
Quoteby implying that white culture is [...] responsible for the success of things that come from other cultures, one is basically supporting white supremacy.

Perhaps. What a relief no-one is doing that. But asserting that one culture influenced "things that come from other cultures" all that "one is basically supporting" is the truth. Only an idiot would deny van Gogh was influenced by Japanese prints, and I can even say out this influence was beneficial, and I can point it out without being a Japanese supremacist.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 28, 2017, 11:12:28 AM
Quote from: amw on June 28, 2017, 10:27:26 AM
such as singing the entirety of Das Ring der Nibelungen at the start of every KKK meeting, as they were forced to do until country music was invented in the 1950s.

Country music was invented in the 1920s, not the 50s and, like all American popular music of note, is heavily Africanized.  Think of it as the inverse of blues - blues was a mix of British folk and African traditions from an African American POV where as country music  is just the inverse, white folk music influenced by African traditions.  Country music originated in the mill towns of NC  and there are stories of white musicians going over to the black side of town to pick up ideas then going to their KKK and union meetings (the primary purpose of the labor unions being to limit the factory jobs to white men)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on June 28, 2017, 11:37:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
You actually shot yourself in the right foot with this: the skin color of a person wearing a burqa cannot be identified without removing it.
When the police arrest someones for wearing a burqa in a jurisdiction where it's illegal, if the burqa proves to contain a white person it is probable they will be treated better.

QuoteI submit for your consideration that none of these would have happened had he been born and raised and living in, say, Camerun.
...which is entirely the fault of white people for colonizing that country to steal its wealth and people and suppress its own cultures, and then leaving it as an area zoned, in effect, for poverty and keeping it cut off from the global market economy. So that's not really much of an argument.
Quote from: Brian on June 28, 2017, 10:57:16 AM
I'd be curious to get your thought on this. In food writing, we have a whole ton of "appropriation" arguments all the time, only more frequent nowadays, and it drives some people crazy. My own approach for writing about the local community has been to ask: (1) is the chef being respectful toward the culture? (2) does the culture have equal opportunity to present itself? (in a strict sense; variables like "who do investors want to bet on" and "is the chef famous" can muddy the waters) (3) is the food super delicious? And if, for instance, a white chef is making super delicious tacos while demonstrating respect for the culture and other taco makers, hey, awesome.
I think cultural appropriation issues come from a combination of disrespect and stigma. No one cares if something uncontroversial is appropriated respectfully. There is no stigma against playing Balinese gamelan music, and people from other countries who play that music are not doing anything to create stigma and are following Balinese rules, so a gamelan ensemble at one's university or whatever is generally fine. There is a stigma against the Plains warbonnet due to a long tradition of racist depictions of native Americans in media, so a non-native person (particularly an American) wearing one is kind of rude even if they make an effort to be respectful of its history and meaning. There is no stigma against the kimono, a very common garment in Japan, but many times when non-Japanese people wear them it is to reference sexualised stereotypes of Japanese people from pornography and racist media and therefore don't do that if that's your intention.
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 28, 2017, 11:12:28 AM
Country music was invented in the 1920s, not the 50s and, like all American popular music of note, is heavily Africanized.  Think of it as the inverse of blues - blues was a mix of British folk and African traditions from an African American POV where as country music  is just the inverse, white folk music influenced by African traditions.  Country music originated in the mill towns of NC  and there are stories of white musicians going over to the black side of town to pick up ideas then going to their KKK and union meetings (the primary purpose of the labor unions being to limit the factory jobs to white men)
Yes I am aware of the actual origins of country music. White supremacists tend to downplay the African influence or simply claim it never existed, though.

Also glad you didn't see anything wrong with the suggestion that Klansmen's anthem was a fifteen hour opera. >_>
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 11:49:05 AM
The story is John 9 and it is a blind man, not a lame one and the "bystanders" are actually the disciples:
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

And amw is right that the book of Job is also a big sermon against karmic retribution.
Whatever, it is historically not a question that a lot of what we take for granted as "standard morality" today was developed in exactly one region of the world (and so was modern experimental science, BTW), namely christian Europe, based on Christianity, Judaism and some select features of ancient schools like Stoicism.
Now one can of course claim that this was an accident and it is also true that some things had to be fought for against institutionalized religion. But this is missing the point because the secularized idea of "human rights" arose within the general culture of western christianity and did not really exist anywhere else. And in some cases one can directly show how a formerly christian notion was secularized to arrive at some universal unalienable right etc. Or to put it differently, ideas became so ingrained by centuries of a certain culture that people could (to some extent) just take the core ideas and remove the religious basis.

People should really read Nietzsche; he is entertainingly wicked and extremely smart. (Of course he is wrong about christian or later secularized morals being pernicious slave morality but he is correct about the historical and systematic connections and I think he also has a point that it is not obvious that one can remove the religious grounding without consequences in the long run. It's just that we still are in that running experiment and it might take another few decades to prove him right)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: king ubu on June 28, 2017, 12:04:21 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
Let's take Errol Garner, who's been mentioned above. White culture is responsible for his success, in many ways: (1) it offered him the chance of learning to play the piano, (2) it offered him the venues where he could display his talent in public concerts, (3) it offered him recording facilities, (4) it offered him a cultural  environment in which recordings were cherished and sought after, and (5) it made him famous. I submit for your consideration that none of these would have happened had he been born and raised and living in, say, Camerun.

Not sure what this discussion is about, started reading backwards and don't feel like going back to the beginning, but first of all, it Erroll Garner (question of respect in my book), and second of all, that whole statement is such a blatant generalization that it makes no sense to even consider replying to it.

And yes, I may be touchy. I'm not black, but I really hate the arrogant and at the same time extremely ignorant attitude so many people in the classical world (I had Peter Eötvös talk b-s about jazz Monday night, I had discussions with people sitting next to me at the opera etc.) display when discussing jazz, in a manner that they would like to have perceived as knowledgeable and highly cultured and all that, but it's really just an exposure of how little they have understood, and how even less they can be bothered.

/end of rant  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 12:18:22 PM
Quote from: king ubu on June 28, 2017, 12:04:21 PM
really hate the arrogant and at the same time extremely ignorant attitude so many people in the classical world ...display when discussing jazz,

You must be new here.  ::) Jazz gets a lot of respect here, and I have never seen it disparaged here either. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: king ubu on June 28, 2017, 12:22:47 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 12:18:22 PM
You must be new here.  ::) Jazz gets a lot of respect here, and I have never seen it disparaged here either.

I didn't specifically point out this forum, but gave a couple of examples. But Florestan's post rubbed me the wrong way indeed and seemed in line with those examples, alas. That may have been even more so as I doreally  respect him in general (from what I have read here, have not been in touch beyond).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 12:30:20 PM
Quote from: amw on June 28, 2017, 11:37:18 AM
...which is entirely the fault of white people

I was 200% sure that you will come up with this nonsense.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on June 28, 2017, 12:31:11 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 05:36:28 AM
Actually not. He actually said
"The entirety of black commercial pop music (I use that term in its most generic sense to encompass all song-based popular/commercial music), including all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, ..." So he did not say "all jazz" he said "all of [a list]". The "all of" refers to the contents of the list, not the items in the list. Example: You decide to post "They're crooks, all of Trump, his cabinet, his family,..."  you are not calling Trump's left foot a crook, nor does his left foot need to be a crook for your statement to be true; if I could prove his left foot had an alibi at the time it wouldn't make you wrong.

A semantic argument and a ridiculous one. If someone were to say, "The entirety of them are crooks, all of Trump, his cabinet, his family,..." you really parse that to mean only some unspecified part of Trump is a crook, and that some other unspecified part of Trump is not a crook?

He said "entirety," and then he added two clauses of clarification, which he could have used to limit what he meant (as you infer), but instead he used those additional words to emphasize that he meant to "encompass all song-based popular/commercial music." Unless he provided some other clarification that you omitted, then only someone who wants him to mean "some subset of the entirety" could interpret it as "some subset of the entirety."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 28, 2017, 12:33:56 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2017, 11:49:05 AM
Whatever, it is historically not a question that a lot of what we take for granted as "standard morality" today was developed in exactly one region of the world (and so was modern experimental science, BTW), namely christian Europe, based on Christianity, Judaism and some select features of ancient schools like Stoicism.
Now one can of course claim that this was an accident and it is also true that some things had to be fought for against institutionalized religion. But this is missing the point because the secularized idea of "human rights" arose within the general culture of western christianity and did not really exist anywhere else. And in some cases one can directly show how a formerly christian notion was secularized to arrive at some universal unalienable right etc. Or to put it differently, ideas became so ingrained by centuries of a certain culture that people could (to some extent) just take the core ideas and remove the religious basis.

People should really read Nietzsche; he is entertainingly wicked and extremely smart. (Of course he is wrong about christian or later secularized morals being pernicious slave morality but he is correct about the historical and systematic connections and I think he also has a point that it is not obvious that one can remove the religious grounding without consequences in the long run. It's just that we still are in that running experiment and it might take another few decades to prove him right)

Vox clamantis in deserto.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: Pat B on June 28, 2017, 12:31:11 PM
A semantic argument and a ridiculous one. If someone were to say, "The entirety of them are crooks, all of Trump, his cabinet, his family,..." you really parse that to mean only some unspecified part of Trump is a crook, and that some other unspecified part of Trump is not a crook?

He said "entirety," and then he added two clauses of clarification, which he could have used to limit what he meant (as you infer), but instead he used those additional words to emphasize that he meant to "encompass all song-based popular/commercial music." Unless he provided some other clarification that you omitted, then only someone who wants him to mean "some subset of the entirety" could interpret it as "some subset of the entirety."

You are confused. If I say "all of the sciences owe a debt to the ancient Greeks" I am not saying "all of fluid mechanics, every last result of it, owes a debt to the ancient Greeks". I am saying that fluid mechanics, and biology, and optics, owes a debt to the ancient Greeks. If I say popular literature, all of sci-fi, detective fiction, horror, regency romance, techno-thrillers shows the influence of Edgar Alan Poe I might be right or wrong but I am not saying every page of every science fiction story owes a debt to Poe. Rather I am saying the genre as a whole does.

Oh, and a "semantic" argument about what words mean! Precious.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on June 28, 2017, 02:42:24 PM
I want the last 4 pages of my life back.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on June 28, 2017, 03:13:46 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 12:44:40 PM
You are confused. If I say "all of the sciences owe a debt to the ancient Greeks" I am not saying "all of fluid mechanics, every last result of it, owes a debt to the ancient Greeks". I am saying that fluid mechanics, and biology, and optics, owes a debt to the ancient Greeks. If I say popular literature, all of sci-fi, detective fiction, horror, regency romance, techno-thrillers shows the influence of Edgar Alan Poe I might be right or wrong but I am not saying every page of every science fiction story owes a debt to Poe. Rather I am saying the genre as a whole does.

Oh, and a "semantic" argument about what words mean! Precious.

The quote you provided stated the subject in three different phrases: "The entirety of black commercial pop music"; "all song-based popular/commercial music"; "all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else." The third phrase, if considered independently, is arguably ambiguous, so even if we ignore the first two phrases, Karl's reading was not a misreading, but at worst a reasonable interpretation of an ambiguous statement. But if you consider all three phrases, the quote was not even ambiguous.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 04:45:51 PM
Quote from: Pat B on June 28, 2017, 03:13:46 PM
The quote you provided stated the subject in three different phrases: "The entirety of black commercial pop music"; "all song-based popular/commercial music"; "all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else." The third phrase, if considered independently, is arguably ambiguous, so even if we ignore the first two phrases, Karl's reading was not a misreading, but at worst a reasonable interpretation of an ambiguous statement. But if you consider all three phrases, the quote was not even ambiguous.

So you've given up complaining that textual exegesis is a semantic argument?

You flagrantly violate the principle of charity in interpretation here. That is obvious. And it's enough.
But what you are claiming is wrong on its face as you can see when he says "and everything else" at the end: meaning all the classifications he didn't list.

You didn't address my examples either. No need to bother as I am frankly tired of the "aha, we can interpret him to say X, and find a case where X isn't true so we can say everything he said under any interpretation is wrong hahaha" game.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on June 28, 2017, 09:27:22 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 28, 2017, 04:45:51 PM
So you've given up complaining that textual exegesis is a semantic argument?

You flagrantly violate the principle of charity in interpretation here. That is obvious. And it's enough.
But what you are claiming is wrong on its face as you can see when he says "and everything else" at the end: meaning all the classifications he didn't list.

You didn't address my examples either. No need to bother as I am frankly tired of the "aha, we can interpret him to say X, and find a case where X isn't true so we can say everything he said under any interpretation is wrong hahaha" game.

I addressed your first example in the first paragraph of my first post.

The inclusion of "and everything else" does not redefine "all" to mean "parts."

I will try to remember the principle of charity in interpretation in the future.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on June 29, 2017, 02:08:38 AM
Quote from: king ubu on June 28, 2017, 12:04:21 PM
/end of rant  :)

For the record: nothing that I wrote was meant or implied as disrespectful to Erroll Garner, both as a man and as a musician. Any such interpretation is contrary to my own thinking.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on June 29, 2017, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 28, 2017, 05:13:18 PM
I want my previous 4 lives back, I can't go on reincarnating like this  :'(
really bad karma, I guess ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 03, 2017, 09:45:49 AM
Bernstein's Mass is bad 70s kitsch, the point in his career where Lenny went from a mediocre imitator of Stravinsky to writing purely bad music
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on July 03, 2017, 10:02:28 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 03, 2017, 09:45:49 AM
Bernstein's Mass is bad 70s kitsch,... purely bad music

+1

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 03, 2017, 03:34:56 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 03, 2017, 09:45:49 AM
Bernstein's Mass is bad 70s kitsch, the point in his career where Lenny went from a mediocre imitator of Stravinsky to writing purely bad music
Supposedly Lenny left the NYPO to concentrate on composing. Took him a few yrs to come up with this garbage...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Abuelo Igor on July 03, 2017, 04:43:07 PM
Shostakovich owes much of his prestige to Testimony and to being considered a kind of hero who battled the evil Soviet empire from the shadows, which does not match very well the kind of personal power he actually got to wield at some times of his life. I think it unfair that he has pushed out of the picture many other Soviet composers who wrote music I find much more enjoyable but who were less "historically significant".

The reason why his stuff, in spite of not abandoning tonality, has found favor with many fans of the 20th century avant-garde is that it rarely falls into the temptation of being "beautiful", which to some people is the cardinal sin.

And my session of Dmitri-bashing would not be complete without stating that, in my ill-formed opinion, the Leningrad symphony, far from being the fluff decried by many serious-minded music lovers, is actually the best thing he ever did.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on July 03, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on July 03, 2017, 04:43:07 PM
Shostakovich owes much of his prestige to Testimony and to being considered a kind of hero who battled the evil Soviet empire from the shadows, which does not match very well the kind of personal power he actually got to wield at some times of his life. I think it unfair that he has pushed out of the picture many other Soviet composers who wrote music I find much more enjoyable but who were less "historically significant".

I think that enhances his aura among some, but I don't think it's the main reason.  He's hardly the only composer of the 20th century who resisted a dictator, and many others have fallen more or less by the wayside in spite of compelling personal stories (KA Hartmann, for example).

His music does have a compelling drive and his sense of form and timing were excellent, and I think that these elements account for a good deal of his popularity.

Quote from: Abuelo Igor on July 03, 2017, 04:43:07 PMThe reason why his stuff, in spite of not abandoning tonality, has found favor with many fans of the 20th century avant-garde is that it rarely falls into the temptation of being "beautiful", which to some people is the cardinal sin.

None of his music (well, none of the serious stuff, anyway) is really conventionally tonal, though it's in the mainstream stylistically and not fully chromatic like the music that's often incorrectly called atonal.

But I actually don't find his music especially beautiful either.  Not in the way that I find Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Boulez, Stravinsky, Messiaen, Takemitsu, and others of his time (even Milton Babbitt sometimes!) beautiful, and that's part of the reason I prefer Prokofiev generally.

The idea that people who like Second Viennese or Darmstadt modernism think beauty is anathema is really only something critics express; the composers said they found their own music beautiful, and people who enjoy the music often talk about its beauty.  I sometimes dislike the music that people who dislike those composers think of as "beautiful," but that's hardly an aversion to beauty in general; if I liked the music, I probably would hear beauties in it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 03, 2017, 07:07:43 PM
People like Shostakovich because he sounds like film music and uses a recogniseable language of emotional "tropes" or "topics" that comes from that world. It's easy to recognize when something is supposed to be Sad, or Happy, or Sounding Happy But Actually Sad. It always keeps us at some distance from the emotions, and audiences like this, because it is uncomfortable for them to feel things (in particular negative emotions) too deeply. Much of the criticism against avant-garde composers of previous generations, such as Beethoven or Wagner, was based on their music being too emotionally raw and therefore improper, and they only found widespread acceptance once their musical languages had become mainstream. In fact this is still a criticism we level at some composers of the past.

Opera is a notable example, where the composers who are popular create musical distance between the often horrific events on stage and the empathy of audience members (e.g. every scene where someone goes mad and dies in a bright major key) and the composers who actually invoke the audience's empathy are seen as being difficult and abstruse (the music of Wozzeck is well suited to its subject matter, but it is considered significantly harder to listen to than, say, Tristan und Isolde because we come away with the actual feeling of two people having died).

Shostakovich's music was easy to listen to, because that is what government officials demanded of him. Judging by his popularity both in his lifetime and since then, they were absolutely right to do so, and Stalin bears responsibility for the most popular and accessible music of the twentieth century. Maybe Zhdanov wasn't so bad after all?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 03, 2017, 07:23:59 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 03, 2017, 09:45:49 AM
Bernstein's Mass is bad 70s kitsch, the point in his career where Lenny went from a mediocre imitator of Stravinsky to writing purely bad music

Well I actually like it :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 03, 2017, 07:28:55 PM
I was going to listen to Bernstein's Mass, but I realised I could just look at this picture instead:

(http://media.gq.com/photos/55ccbcc324ace34a31312a25/master/w_800/buscemi-fellow-kids.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 03, 2017, 07:51:38 PM
I declare myself winner of this thread
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 03, 2017, 10:13:40 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 03, 2017, 03:05:11 PM
My unpopular opinion is that the popularity of the opinions are opinionated population increase studies have proved, unpolulated polluted islands on the east coast. Populated onions: insect reformation. Sad to the future generations, preservation. Popular solutions? Opinions on matter wanted, mr Speaker. Opinions onions populated non-preparatory? where will this end for our agriculture?

This is unpopular opinions. Incoherent opinions is 3 doors down on the right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 03, 2017, 11:00:01 PM
Quote from: jessop on July 03, 2017, 07:51:38 PM
I declare myself winner of this thread
Haha! That's hilarious! :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on July 03, 2017, 11:33:53 PM
Since we're at it, Shostakovich and Britten are the musical "middle class" of the 20th century.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on July 04, 2017, 01:05:06 AM
Quote from: amw on July 03, 2017, 07:07:43 PM
Judging by his popularity both in his lifetime and since then, they were absolutely right to do so, and Stalin bears responsibility for the most popular and accessible music of the twentieth century.

Well, that's... uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 04, 2017, 01:21:10 AM
Definitely. I try not to think about things in that way, but on the basis of the evidence -- including the relative popularity of Mitya's pre- and post-1936 music -- that is a defensible (if unpopular) opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 04, 2017, 03:50:14 AM
Shostakovich wrote some pretty spectacular compositions that I don't really perceive as something trying hard to be accessible. The Nose? Symphony no. 2? Some of my favourite music to come out of Russia. Really quite complex stuff.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on July 04, 2017, 04:00:41 AM
Quote from: jessop on July 04, 2017, 03:50:14 AM
Shostakovich wrote some pretty spectacular compositions that I don't really perceive as something trying hard to be accessible. The Nose? Symphony no. 2? Some of my favourite music to come out of Russia. Really quite complex stuff.

Both of those are among his less popular works and predate his censure by the government at any rate.  I don't think his music is popular solely because people who dislike other modernists find it accessible, as there's a lot more music of the mid-20th century out there that's far less modernist than Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 04, 2017, 04:13:58 AM
Quote from: jessop on July 04, 2017, 03:50:14 AM
Shostakovich wrote some pretty spectacular compositions that I don't really perceive as something trying hard to be accessible. The Nose? Symphony no. 2? Some of my favourite music to come out of Russia. Really quite complex stuff.
Same (I also enjoy his early piano music) but those are obviously pre-1936. His post-1936 works start with the Fifth Symphony and continue with basically everything famous that he did. The only pre-1936 works by him that are regularly heard now seem to be the Fourth Symphony and First Piano Concerto, the latter of which is already in a more accessible vein even without Stalin and Pravda's "Muddle instead of Music" editorial.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 04, 2017, 04:59:16 AM
Quote from: amw on July 04, 2017, 04:13:58 AM
Same (I also enjoy his early piano music) but those are obviously pre-1936. His post-1936 works start with the Fifth Symphony and continue with basically everything famous that he did. The only pre-1936 works by him that are regularly heard now seem to be the Fourth Symphony and First Piano Concerto, the latter of which is already in a more accessible vein even without Stalin and Pravda's "Muddle instead of Music" editorial.

The thirteenth string quartet is pretty good, I think. Another favourite of mine from after 1936.

I agree with Mahlerian that there is plenty of music from the mid 20th century which is more conservative albeit less popular than Shostakovich. Perhaps it is because it is more difficult to say anything new or contribute to art in a new way whilst being stylistically in opposition to modernist trends?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 04, 2017, 05:12:29 AM
Quote from: amw on July 03, 2017, 07:07:43 PM
People like Shostakovich because he sounds like film music and uses a recogniseable language of emotional "tropes" or "topics" that comes from that world.

What, all people?

What if some people like it because of the music's excellence?

For the record, "sounds like film music" is (rather like Socialist Realism) a squishy phrase at best.  Some use it as a positive.  Some as a negative.  One wonders just what it means.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: BasilValentine on July 04, 2017, 05:16:18 AM
Quote from: jessop on July 04, 2017, 04:59:16 AM
The thirteenth string quartet is pretty good, I think. Another favourite of mine from after 1936.

I agree with Mahlerian that there is plenty of music from the mid 20th century which is more conservative albeit less popular than Shostakovich. Perhaps it is because it is more difficult to say anything new or contribute to art in a new way whilst being stylistically in opposition to modernist trends?

All of the Shostakovich string quartets except the first were written after 1943 and they are all good. Several are great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 04, 2017, 05:24:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 04, 2017, 05:12:29 AM
What, all people?

What if some people like it because of the music's excellence?

They've been brainwashed by Stalin and Zhdanov.

Quote
For the record, "sounds like film music" is (rather like Socialist Realism) a squishy phrase at best.  Some use it as a positive.  Some as a negative.  One wonders just what it means.

I've read in another thread that Rimsky-Korsakov too sounds like film music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 04, 2017, 05:27:37 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2017, 05:24:05 AM
I've read in another thread that Rimsky-Korsakov too sounds like film music.

I have trouble, too, perceiving how a recogniseable language of emotional "tropes" or "topics" applies solely (and dismissively) to "film music."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 04, 2017, 05:30:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 04, 2017, 05:27:37 AM
I have trouble, too, perceiving how a recogniseable language of emotional "tropes" or "topics" applies solely (and dismissively) to "film music."

Indeed. Or why it is a bad thing (or at least not a commendable one).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on July 04, 2017, 08:32:49 AM
Little of Shostakovich's best music is for orchestra. I think this undercuts the sounds like movie music claim. How much film music really sounds like preludes and fugues?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 04, 2017, 09:09:03 AM
Shostakovich's greatest work - the viola sonata - is neither "beautiful" in the conventional (populist) sense nor cut from some subversive, idyllic mold to please anyone.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 04, 2017, 09:31:11 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 04, 2017, 09:09:03 AM
Shostakovich's greatest work - the viola sonata - is neither "beautiful" in the conventional (populist) sense nor cut from some subversive, idyllic mold to please anyone.

Verily.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on July 04, 2017, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 04, 2017, 09:09:03 AM
Shostakovich's greatest work - the viola sonata - is neither "beautiful" in the conventional (populist) sense nor cut from some subversive, idyllic mold to please anyone.

I agree that the viola sonata is one of the finest of Shostakovich's works. His greatest music is in the chamber works. Of the symphonies, the 9th, 10th and 15th speak to me strongly. For the others I find it hard to get past the Soviet bombast.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 04, 2017, 09:49:36 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 04, 2017, 09:45:50 AM
I agree that the viola sonata is one of the finest of Shostakovich's works. His greatest music is in the chamber works. Of the symphonies, the 9th, 10th and 15th speak to me strongly. For the others I find it hard to get past the Soviet bombast.
I would also add the 1st VC to any short list of great DSCH works, a unique work that really has no resemblance to anything else.
Of the symphonies I would add the 4th symphony on my personally short list - a work that almost got DSCH imprisoned or killed, with an ending that is neither tragic nor triumphant.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 04, 2017, 10:18:14 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 04, 2017, 09:45:50 AM
I agree that the viola sonata is one of the finest of Shostakovich's works. His greatest music is in the chamber works. Of the symphonies, the 9th, 10th and 15th speak to me strongly. For the others I find it hard to get past the Soviet bombast.

Yes, those are three of my favorite symphonies as well. And I agree about his chamber music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 04, 2017, 02:29:41 PM
This was a really interesting post, thank you.

Quote from: Abuelo Igor on July 03, 2017, 04:43:07 PM
Shostakovich owes much of his prestige to Testimony and to being considered a kind of hero who battled the evil Soviet empire from the shadows, which does not match very well the kind of personal power he actually got to wield at some times of his life.

I agree that "sexing up" the biography/historical circumstances has been a heavy marketing technique.  I'll agree that this has affected how some evaluate his work. Where I disagree is, the greatness of his work does not depend on the marketing campaign.

QuoteI think it unfair that he has pushed out of the picture many other Soviet composers who wrote music I find much more enjoyable but who were less "historically significant".

That is an opinion, expressed a bit fallaciously as something of Shostakovich's doing. From my perspective, the quality of the work is "at fault," and (begging your pardon) your quarrel seems to me to echo another chap, who complains that Mozart's music crowds out Dittersdorf's.

QuoteThe reason why his stuff, in spite of not abandoning tonality, has found favor with many fans of the 20th century avant-garde is that it rarely falls into the temptation of being "beautiful", which to some people is the cardinal sin.

This is the first suggestion I've ever heard, that the 20th-c. avant-garde has idolized Shostakovich!

QuoteAnd my session of Dmitri-bashing would not be complete without stating that, in my ill-formed opinion, the Leningrad symphony, far from being the fluff decried by many serious-minded music lovers, is actually the best thing he ever did.

I'm really glad you think this highly of the Leningrad.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Abuelo Igor on July 04, 2017, 02:50:12 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 04, 2017, 02:29:41 PM

That is an opinion,

Of course! And unpopular, to boot.  :)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 04, 2017, 02:29:41 PM
expressed a bit fallaciously as something of Shostakovich's doing. From my perspective, the quality of the work is "at fault," and (begging your pardon) your quarrel seems to me to echo another chap, who complains that Mozart's music crowds out Dittersdorf's.

Of course he did nothing personally to "push out" the other guys. He seems to have staying power, for some reason.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 04, 2017, 02:29:41 PM
This is the first suggestion I've ever heard, that the 20th-c. avant-garde has idolized Shostakovich!

Right again, but I think he belongs squarely in the "no poetry after Auschwitz" camp, even if old Teddy Wiesengrund would have never approved.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 04, 2017, 02:29:41 PM
I'm really glad you think this highly of the Leningrad.

I'm sure that in some alternate version of this universe it is the only work of his that gets played, in the manner of Holst's The Planets.

Of course I like a great deal of Shostakovich's music, but it's impossible for me to see him as one of the greats, and there are aspects of his work that I am not mad about.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 04, 2017, 02:57:11 PM
I repeat myself a bit, but ... interesting again, thanks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Abuelo Igor on July 04, 2017, 03:10:15 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 03, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
I think that enhances his aura among some, but I don't think it's the main reason.  He's hardly the only composer of the 20th century who resisted a dictator, and many others have fallen more or less by the wayside in spite of compelling personal stories (KA Hartmann, for example).

Who is great, by the way. Thank you for reminding me of him.

Quote from: Mahlerian on July 03, 2017, 06:27:23 PMBut I actually don't find his music especially beautiful either.  Not in the way that I find Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Boulez, Stravinsky, Messiaen, Takemitsu, and others of his time (even Milton Babbitt sometimes!) beautiful, and that's part of the reason I prefer Prokofiev generally.

I'm glad that you agree with me that his music can be ugly, but I think that's the way he wanted it. The idea of somebody making an effort to put beauty out of the equation just rubs me the wrong way. Or maybe beauty just evaded him. Most of his "lighter" output sounds like parody, and not a very affectionate one at that.

Quote from: Mahlerian on July 03, 2017, 06:27:23 PMThe idea that people who like Second Viennese or Darmstadt modernism think beauty is anathema is really only something critics express; the composers said they found their own music beautiful, and people who enjoy the music often talk about its beauty.  I sometimes dislike the music that people who dislike those composers think of as "beautiful," but that's hardly an aversion to beauty in general; if I liked the music, I probably would hear beauties in it.

I think that Webern can be quite beautiful in his own special alien way (I didn't want to cheat by resorting to Berg, who is often quite lush), and I suppose the same can be said of Le marteau. Things have changed in the last decades, but, for many years, anyone who didn't spit on "received" ideas of beauty was seen as a bourgeois reactionary. Can beauty be found at the end of differing paths? Sure. Can you appreciate works without beauty for other reasons? Ditto.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 04, 2017, 04:03:31 PM
Quote from: amw on July 03, 2017, 07:28:55 PM
I was going to listen to Bernstein's Mass, but I realised I could just look at this picture instead:

(http://media.gq.com/photos/55ccbcc324ace34a31312a25/master/w_800/buscemi-fellow-kids.jpg)

Good choice. Mass is bad 70s kitsch, the point in his career where Lenny went from a mediocre imitator of Stravinsky to writing purely bad music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 04, 2017, 04:15:47 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 04, 2017, 04:03:31 PM
Good choice. Mass is bad 70s kitsch, the point in his career where Lenny went from a mediocre imitator of Stravinsky to writing purely bad music.
Had to double check where I read this before.  Have you become a mediocre imitator of our friend bwv 1080? :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on July 04, 2017, 07:00:46 PM
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on July 04, 2017, 03:10:15 PM
Who is great, by the way. Thank you for reminding me of him.

My pleasure.

Quote from: Abuelo Igor on July 04, 2017, 03:10:15 PMI'm glad that you agree with me that his music can be ugly, but I think that's the way he wanted it. The idea of somebody making an effort to put beauty out of the equation just rubs me the wrong way. Or maybe beauty just evaded him. Most of his "lighter" output sounds like parody, and not a very affectionate one at that.

I don't think the absence of beauty equates to ugliness.  Ugliness, in my mind, is something more than a lack of beauty.  I don't find counterpoint exercises beautiful (and I've written hundreds of them!), but they're not ugly either.

Quote from: Abuelo Igor on July 04, 2017, 03:10:15 PMI think that Webern can be quite beautiful in his own special alien way (I didn't want to cheat by resorting to Berg, who is often quite lush), and I suppose the same can be said of Le marteau. Things have changed in the last decades, but, for many years, anyone who didn't spit on "received" ideas of beauty was seen as a bourgeois reactionary. Can beauty be found at the end of differing paths? Sure. Can you appreciate works without beauty for other reasons? Ditto.

Of course I can appreciate works that I don't find especially beautiful.  I like a number of Shostakovich pieces greatly, including the Fourth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Symphonies and some of the piano works and the string quartets, and though I don't react to them as beautiful, they are certainly compelling music.  Beethoven's music is often not very beautiful, either, but its power and genius of construction can be overwhelming.

But I submit that these are only my personal reactions.  Beauty is perceived in different ways by different people, and the problem for many is that foreign musical languages always sound odd or wrong.  When I say I find Schoenberg's Serenade or the slow movement of the Wind Quintet or Moses und Aron beautiful, for example, I don't mean that I really hear it as ugly the way others do but find beauty in the ugliness, I just mean that it sounds wonderful to me in its expressivity and lyricism.

I don't have interest in denigrating received ideas of beauty.  Debussy and Chopin and Mozart are all just as beloved to me as the names I mentioned above, and I hear their music as beautiful in the same way others do.  I don't care much for some composers of the mid-20th century not because I dislike older ideas about beauty, but specifically because their music does not accord with those ideas in my mind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 04, 2017, 09:09:58 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 04, 2017, 07:40:12 PM
The whole idea of `beauty' in art irks me a lot, but I'll explain later
I only enjoy art that is beautiful. I don't understand the point of creating something that isn't. Beauty, to me, is largely in the experience of creating or observing art. To see how art, music, theatre, literature etc. can really affect us, how it can change us, based on what it expresses to different people is beauty to me. Anything that actively tries to not affect people in this way is pretty much impossible to create by a living, feeling human being anyway. I look forward to hearing your viewpoint.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on July 04, 2017, 11:24:34 PM
By "transgression" in regard to music, do you simply mean rule breaking?

Is there a link with catharsis in some way? Or does that come in the mini essay?!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 05, 2017, 12:06:21 AM
I think both transgression and katharsis are aspects of art that are mostly independent of "beauty". The idea of katharsis in drama is at least as old as the oldest theoretical reflection on dramatic art in the western culture (Aristotle's Poetics). (Of course in that time the katharsis was not for the author but for the audience who would vicariously experience the tragical things happening with e.g. Oedipus and thus be "purged" from strong emotions.)

Transgression probably came into fashion strongly with the romantics (like Byron's defiant heroes, or more obviously and less artsy, De Sade). But if one takes only the depiction of fairly horrible things it is also almost as old as art. Take the anatomically precise descriptions of spears entering livers in Homer. Or certainly something like Dante's Inferno.
Nevertheless all these (probably not De Sade who was certainly better at transgressing than at writing) have been considered epitomes of beautiful art for centuries, sometimes (as in Homer or Sophocles) for millenia.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2017, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 04, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Where does catharsis and transgression come into music for you?

As inessential.  That is, not an inherent necessity in art.  Which is not to say it does not belong, of course.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2017, 01:18:48 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 05, 2017, 12:30:50 AM
And stuff like melancholy, sadness in general, do you guys consider it "beautiful" ?

To answer only slightly athwart your question (and to offer what I consider an obvious answer 8) ), much art that is melancholy or sad in character is beautiful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 05, 2017, 02:57:15 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 05, 2017, 12:30:50 AM
And stuff like melancholy, sadness in general, do you guys consider it "beautiful" ?

Beauty resides not in the subject but in its artistic treatment. Melancholy and sadness in themselves are neither beautiful nor ugly, but this

When we two parted
   In silence and tears,
Half broken-hearted
   To sever for years,
Pale grew thy cheek and cold,
   Colder thy kiss;
Truly that hour foretold
   Sorrow to this.

The dew of the morning
   Sunk chill on my brow--
It felt like the warning
   Of what I feel now.
Thy vows are all broken,
   And light is thy fame;
I hear thy name spoken,
   And share in its shame.

They name thee before me,
   A knell to mine ear;
A shudder comes o'er me--
   Why wert thou so dear?
They know not I knew thee,
   Who knew thee too well--
Long, long shall I rue thee,
   Too deeply to tell.

In secret we met--
   In silence I grieve,
That thy heart could forget,
   Thy spirit deceive.
If I should meet thee
   After long years,
How should I greet thee?--
   With silence and tears.


is one of the most beautiful English poems (imo, of course, you might disagree).

But then again, what is beauty?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2017, 03:26:34 AM
Of course, it's no fun being the person who is greeted with silence and tears . . . .

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 05, 2017, 04:07:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 05, 2017, 03:26:34 AM
Of course, it's no fun being the person who is greeted with silence and tears . . . .

What if "silence" were the attribute of a speechless joyful countenance? What if "tears" were tears of joy? And what if the person thus "greeted" would instantly recognize the meaning of these signals? Ah, what then?

I guess it takes a genuinely poetic heart to really understand and appreciate poetry...  ;D >:D :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2017, 04:13:46 AM
;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on July 05, 2017, 11:32:38 AM
The best composers tend to have a surname beginning with S.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 05, 2017, 01:55:03 PM
Quote from: nodogen on July 05, 2017, 11:32:38 AM
The best composers tend to have a surname beginning with S.
Please don't skip the first half of my surname, which begins with M!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 10, 2017, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: nodogen on July 05, 2017, 11:32:38 AM
The best composers tend to have a surname beginning with S.

One must first ask how frequent surnames beginning with S are in the general population before this claim, even if proven, can be meaningful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on July 10, 2017, 09:18:42 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on July 10, 2017, 09:10:45 AM
One must first ask how frequent surnames beginning with S are in the general population before this claim, even if proven, can be meaningful.

In addition, does it include transliteration? Or do Ш and Щ count as separate letters?

If they are separate letters, than the proposition is demonstrably false, since that would leave out Schnittke and Shostakovich.  Also Shchedrin, although he's not so obviously one of the best composers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 10, 2017, 09:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 10, 2017, 09:18:42 AM
In addition, does it include transliteration? Or do Ш and Щ count as separate letters?

If they are separate letters, than the proposition is demonstrably false, since that would leave out Schnittke and Shostakovich.  Also Shchedrin, although he's not so obviously one of the best composers.

Excellent observation. In Russian those are single letters and their corresponding sounds are different than S. Go tell a native Russian speaker that Shostakovich begins with an S and see how s/he reacts. (Incidentally, the Romanian transliteration is Șostakovici, the first letter being the exact correspondent, both in sound and graphic representation, or the Russian Ш.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on July 10, 2017, 10:12:06 AM
What would it mean to tell a Russian that Shostakovich begins with "s" when there is no "s" in the Russian alphabet? To tell a Russian that "с" is transliterated as "s" and that "ш" is transliterated as "sh" would not be a shock, but would probably evoke some mild bemusement at the absurdity of the English Language.

Since the criteria was defined in terms of the Roman "s" I assumed that it would be applied after transliteration to a Roman alphabet. If we are going by phonics, the waters are muddied even in English. Would a composer named "Cymballa" count as "s?" Phonetically, it should.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 10, 2017, 10:22:11 AM
well what about 武満?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on July 10, 2017, 10:46:49 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 10, 2017, 10:22:11 AM
well what about 武満?

Clearly, it begins with た.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 10, 2017, 10:49:36 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 10, 2017, 10:12:06 AM
What would it mean to tell a Russian that Shostakovich begins with "s" when there is no "s" in the Russian alphabet? To tell a Russian that "с" is transliterated as "s" and that "ш" is transliterated as "sh" would not be a shock, but would probably evoke some mild bemusement at the absurdity of the English Language.

Exactly.

On the other hand, "s" is not in the Russian alphabet, but the sound corresponding to it is in the Russian phonetics.

Quote
Since the criteria was defined in terms of the Roman "s" I assumed that it would be applied after transliteration to a Roman alphabet. If we are going by phonics, the waters are muddied even in English. Would a composer named "Cymballa" count as "s?" Phonetically, it should.

ghoti for fish comes to mind immediately. Not only is the English language absurd, it also has an absurd orthography.  ;D >:D :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2017, 10:52:01 AM
A complicated history, sure . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 10, 2017, 11:04:09 AM
Many of the great "S" composers actually start with the "sh" sound: Schütz, Schubert, Schumann, Schönberg, Shostakovich, Strauss.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on July 10, 2017, 11:07:48 AM
Hey, this thread is for unpopular opinions; nobody said they had to be rational! 😋
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on July 10, 2017, 11:08:52 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 10, 2017, 11:04:09 AM
Many of the great "S" composers actually start with the "sh" sound: Schütz, Schubert, Schumann, Schönberg, Shostakovich, Strauss.

Still an S though. Just sayin'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 10, 2017, 11:11:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 10, 2017, 11:04:09 AM
Many of the great "S" composers actually start with the "sh" sound: Schütz, Schubert, Schumann, Schönberg, Shostakovich, Strauss.

also Scarlatti and Saint-Saëns
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 10, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: nodogen on July 10, 2017, 11:08:52 AM
Still an S though. Just sayin'

An "S" only as in the graphic sign S. Phonetically, though, not the sound that correspond to it, as in "speak" or "see".

The stumbling block for native English (or German) speakers in this respect is that they need two graphic signs to designate one single phonetic sound: sh. Russians or Romanians, on the other hand, having one single graphic sign for one single phonetic sound have no difficulty in grasping the difference between a phonetic S and a phonetic Sh and they (rightly) treat it as two different sounds needing two different letters. Complicated, I know, but it shows that a phonetic orthography is more logical and helpful than an etymological one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on July 10, 2017, 11:28:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 10, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
An "S" only as in the graphic sign S. Phonetically, though, not the sound that correspond to it, as in "speak" or "see".

The stumbling block for native English (or German) speakers in this respect is that they need two graphic signs to designate one single phonetic sound: sh. Russians or Romanians, on the other hand, having one single graphic sign for one single phonetic sound have no difficulty in grasping the difference between a phonetic S and a phonetic Sh and they (rightly) treat it as two different sounds needing two different letters. Complicated, I know, but it shows that a phonetic orthography is more logical and helpful than an etymological one.

Frankly, I'm just desperate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on July 10, 2017, 11:37:17 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 10, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
An "S" only as in the graphic sign S. Phonetically, though, not the sound that correspond to it, as in "speak" or "see".

The stumbling block for native English (or German) speakers in this respect is that they need two graphic signs to designate one single phonetic sound: sh. Russians or Romanians, on the other hand, having one single graphic sign for one single phonetic sound have no difficulty in grasping the difference between a phonetic S and a phonetic Sh and they (rightly) treat it as two different sounds needing two different letters. Complicated, I know, but it shows that a phonetic orthography is more logical and helpful than an etymological one.

English speakers know perfectly well that 's' and 'sh' are different sounds. English is not alone in using combinations of consonants to produce distinct sounds. In Italian "ci" is soft (like an English ch) and "chi" is hard (like an English k), but "co" is hard and to obtain a soft sound before o the form 'cio' is normally used. Similar considerations for 'g.'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 10, 2017, 11:46:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 10, 2017, 11:37:17 AM
English speakers know perfectly well that 's' and 'sh' are different sounds.

No doubt. But for some of them, for instance for the holder of the "unpopular" opinion under consideration, it is apparently difficult to make the difference between the graphic "S" and the phonetic "S": the former might be part of a graphic representation for a different sound than the latter. It is obvious that phonetically speaking Shostakovich dose not begin with S.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on July 10, 2017, 04:25:15 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 10, 2017, 11:11:37 AM
also Scarlatti and Saint-Saëns

Are you saying I have been pronouncing those incorrectly for fifty years.

(SkarLAtee/Sansauns, in nonstandard transcription)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 10, 2017, 04:34:44 PM
Quote from: Florestan on July 10, 2017, 11:46:46 AM
No doubt. But for some of them, for instance for the holder of the "unpopular" opinion under consideration, it is apparently difficult to make the difference between the graphic "S" and the phonetic "S": the former might be part of a graphic representation for a different sound than the latter. It is obvious that phonetically speaking Shostakovich dose not begin with S.

I'm worried now when you talk about phonetics yet continue to use conventional graphic notation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 10, 2017, 05:45:24 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 10, 2017, 04:25:15 PM
Are you saying I have been pronouncing those incorrectly for fifty years.

(SkarLAtee/Sansauns, in nonstandard transcription)

Yes, modern shcolarship has the pronounshiation as Shkarlatti / ShanShawns
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 11, 2017, 06:51:21 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on July 10, 2017, 04:34:44 PM
I'm worried now when you talk about phonetics yet continue to use conventional graphic notation.

Uel, Ai cud sertănli rait Ingliș foneticli, bat năubadi ud andărstend.  :laugh:

(The above is the Romanian transliteration of "Well, I could certainly write English phonetically, but nobody would understand.")
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 11, 2017, 09:34:18 AM
This may be a popular opinion among some pianists, but Dejan Lazić's transcription of Brahms's Violin Concerto for the piano is more pianistic and grateful to play than either of Brahms's actual piano concertos.

No.1 plays like an orchestral reduction, all thick chords and octaves or string quartet like textures that simply don't make good use of the piano and its registers. And No.2 is just incredibly awkward, the first movement containing some of the most difficult and physically painful to play music in the repertoire, and takes a lot of effort to make sound good, almost like Brahms thought pianists have two right hands (especially with all the passages where the left hand has the same material as the right an octave lower. Pro tip: the left hand actually has the thumb on the opposite side). Since he played both concerti himself, and his solo piano writing is much more pianistic, I have no idea what he was thinking.... No.1 obviously originated as a symphony which could explain the orchestra reduction textures, but maybe in No.2 he was thinking of the piano too much as an extension of the orchestra or something? I'm not sure. That or his left hand actually had the thumb on its left side and the pinky on the right, who knows :p

Anyway. >.>
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: NikF on July 11, 2017, 09:54:23 AM
Quote from: amw on July 11, 2017, 09:34:18 AM
This may be a popular opinion among some pianists, but Dejan Lazić's transcription of Brahms's Violin Concerto for the piano is more pianistic and grateful to play than either of Brahms's actual piano concertos.

No.1 plays like an orchestral reduction, all thick chords and octaves or string quartet like textures that simply don't make good use of the piano and its registers. And No.2 is just incredibly awkward, the first movement containing some of the most difficult and physically painful to play music in the repertoire, and takes a lot of effort to make sound good, almost like Brahms thought pianists have two right hands (especially with all the passages where the left hand has the same material as the right an octave lower. Pro tip: the left hand actually has the thumb on the opposite side). Since he played both concerti himself, and his solo piano writing is much more pianistic, I have no idea what he was thinking.... No.1 obviously originated as a symphony which could explain the orchestra reduction textures, but maybe in No.2 he was thinking of the piano too much as an extension of the orchestra or something? I'm not sure. That or his left hand actually had the thumb on its left side and the pinky on the right, who knows :p

Anyway. >.>

This kind of post - which if even in part is way over my head - is one the of the reasons I visit this forum. Insight gained/landscape uncovered - it all adds up.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2017, 10:20:42 AM
And: he keeps his cool!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 11, 2017, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2017, 10:20:42 AM
And: he keeps his cool!

He? His?  ???

You, Sir, are a sexist pig!  >:D :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on July 11, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: amw on July 11, 2017, 09:34:18 AM
This may be a popular opinion among some pianists, but Dejan Lazić's transcription of Brahms's Violin Concerto for the piano is more pianistic and grateful to play than either of Brahms's actual piano concertos.

No.1 plays like an orchestral reduction, all thick chords and octaves or string quartet like textures that simply don't make good use of the piano and its registers. And No.2 is just incredibly awkward, the first movement containing some of the most difficult and physically painful to play music in the repertoire, and takes a lot of effort to make sound good, almost like Brahms thought pianists have two right hands (especially with all the passages where the left hand has the same material as the right an octave lower. Pro tip: the left hand actually has the thumb on the opposite side). Since he played both concerti himself, and his solo piano writing is much more pianistic, I have no idea what he was thinking.... No.1 obviously originated as a symphony which could explain the orchestra reduction textures, but maybe in No.2 he was thinking of the piano too much as an extension of the orchestra or something? I'm not sure. That or his left hand actually had the thumb on its left side and the pinky on the right, who knows :p

Anyway. >.>

I don't remember who said it but I remember someone describing the Brahms First PC as a wrestling match between soloist and orchestra.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: NikF on July 11, 2017, 10:40:38 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 11, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
I don't remember who said it but I remember someone describing the Brahms First PC as a wrestling match between soloist and orchestra.

Yeah, or like two boxers who are not only evenly matched, but are throwing the same combos at each other. Of course, that's one of the reasons it appeals to me. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 11, 2017, 10:45:13 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 11, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
I don't remember who said it but I remember someone describing the Brahms First PC as a wrestling match between soloist and orchestra.

Hugo Wolf wrote that from such glacial music one could catch a severe cold.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on July 11, 2017, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: amw on July 11, 2017, 09:34:18 AM
This may be a popular opinion among some pianists, but Dejan Lazić's transcription of Brahms's Violin Concerto for the piano is more pianistic and grateful to play than either of Brahms's actual piano concertos.

No.1 plays like an orchestral reduction, all thick chords and octaves or string quartet like textures that simply don't make good use of the piano and its registers. And No.2 is just incredibly awkward, the first movement containing some of the most difficult and physically painful to play music in the repertoire, and takes a lot of effort to make sound good, almost like Brahms thought pianists have two right hands (especially with all the passages where the left hand has the same material as the right an octave lower. Pro tip: the left hand actually has the thumb on the opposite side). Since he played both concerti himself, and his solo piano writing is much more pianistic, I have no idea what he was thinking.... No.1 obviously originated as a symphony which could explain the orchestra reduction textures, but maybe in No.2 he was thinking of the piano too much as an extension of the orchestra or something? I'm not sure. That or his left hand actually had the thumb on its left side and the pinky on the right, who knows :p

Anyway. >.>
Well, I know what I need to listen to ASAP.

Think I saw Lazić play this live in London, but can't remember  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on July 11, 2017, 11:27:44 AM
Quote from: amw on July 11, 2017, 09:34:18 AM
This may be a popular opinion among some pianists, but Dejan Lazić's transcription of Brahms's Violin Concerto for the piano is more pianistic and grateful to play than either of Brahms's actual piano concertos.

No.1 plays like an orchestral reduction, all thick chords and octaves or string quartet like textures that simply don't make good use of the piano and its registers. And No.2 is just incredibly awkward, the first movement containing some of the most difficult and physically painful to play music in the repertoire, and takes a lot of effort to make sound good, almost like Brahms thought pianists have two right hands (especially with all the passages where the left hand has the same material as the right an octave lower. Pro tip: the left hand actually has the thumb on the opposite side). Since he played both concerti himself, and his solo piano writing is much more pianistic, I have no idea what he was thinking.... No.1 obviously originated as a symphony which could explain the orchestra reduction textures, but maybe in No.2 he was thinking of the piano too much as an extension of the orchestra or something? I'm not sure. That or his left hand actually had the thumb on its left side and the pinky on the right, who knows :p

Anyway. >.>

I can make no comment on the difficulty of the piece, but I find the second PC of Brahms one of the most satisfying pieces of classical music there is. That said, I am interested to hear the transcription of the VC.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 11, 2017, 03:11:13 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 11, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
I don't remember who said it but I remember someone describing the Brahms First PC as a wrestling match between soloist and orchestra.

I suspect that claim has been made for many concerti.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 11, 2017, 03:12:42 PM
Quote from: amw on July 11, 2017, 09:34:18 AM
This may be a popular opinion among some pianists, but Dejan Lazić's transcription of Brahms's Violin Concerto for the piano is more pianistic and grateful to play than either of Brahms's actual piano concertos.

No.1 plays like an orchestral reduction, all thick chords and octaves or string quartet like textures that simply don't make good use of the piano and its registers. And No.2 is just incredibly awkward, the first movement containing some of the most difficult and physically painful to play music in the repertoire, and takes a lot of effort to make sound good, almost like Brahms thought pianists have two right hands (especially with all the passages where the left hand has the same material as the right an octave lower. Pro tip: the left hand actually has the thumb on the opposite side). Since he played both concerti himself, and his solo piano writing is much more pianistic, I have no idea what he was thinking.... No.1 obviously originated as a symphony which could explain the orchestra reduction textures, but maybe in No.2 he was thinking of the piano too much as an extension of the orchestra or something? I'm not sure. That or his left hand actually had the thumb on its left side and the pinky on the right, who knows :p

Anyway. >.>

And yet somehow hundreds of pianists have managed to play both . . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on July 11, 2017, 03:27:48 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 11, 2017, 03:12:42 PM
And yet somehow hundreds of pianists have managed to play both . . . .
Just not, we are told, Glenn Gould.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 11, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
Of course both concerti are playable, but they are not pianistic in the way e.g. Tchaikovsky's or Liszt's are. And they are considered quite difficult (I think Nelson Freire called Brahms 2 the most difficult piano concerto in the repertoire, for example, and he's played Rach 3).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on July 11, 2017, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: amw on July 11, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
Of course both concerti are playable, but they are not pianistic in the way e.g. Tchaikovsky's or Liszt's are. And they are considered quite difficult (I think Nelson Freire called Brahms 2 the most difficult piano concerto in the repertoire, for example, and he's played Rach 3).

Bach, Schumann and Brahms (there are others, to be sure) wrote for the keyboards of their day in a very dense manner, without much (or any) consideration of those works being necessarily 'with the hand' piano / pianist friendly.  Of course these same composer's works are playable.

The Brahms Piano Concerti are both formidable Mount Everests of the literature for pianists; their texture is often dense; they require power throughout, regardless of the dynamics.  For the second concerto especially, uncommon champion (completely reliable) mental and physical stamina are required to play through (from memory) and maintain focus on the overall structure of this 40 minutes long concertante work, all the while being heard with or over the orchestra.  The ability to play these more dense and large-scale structures and render them and their architecture with virtuosic clarity is one of the primary traits of the Russian "Grand School" of pianism, (which clearly, was not confined to Russia :-)

P.s. There is reason one sees and hears young tyros in competitions and their careers playing Rachmaninoff and Prokofiev concerti, but not either of the Brahms.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2017, 06:24:15 PM
You know that theme that Beethoven loved so much, the one from 'Creatures of Prometheus' that he used for the contradanse WoO14 #7, then for the 15 variations for piano Opus 35, the Eroica Variations, and then for the final movement of Symphony #3?  Yes, that one. I really, really don't like that theme. There, I said it. :D

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on July 12, 2017, 12:02:29 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2017, 06:24:15 PM
You know that theme that Beethoven loved so much, the one from 'Creatures of Prometheus' that he used for the contradanse WoO14 #7, then for the 15 variations for piano Opus 35, the Eroica Variations, and then for the final movement of Symphony #3?  Yes, that one. I really, really don't like that theme. There, I said it. :D

Delete post, ban user.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 12, 2017, 12:08:35 AM
I love it. I am not sure but it must have been one of the first Beethoven themes and movements I loved all the way through. The first Beethoven symphonies I encountered were 3,6, and 9 and the first two movements of the Eroica were pretty tough for me with almost boring stretches between the "good bits". But the finale with that great melody was no problem.
(The first large scale Beethoven piece I similarly cherished in all movements was probably the 5th piano concerto but this was a few months later, I think.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2017, 05:45:26 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 12, 2017, 05:40:03 AM
I can't get Art Of Fugue out of my head   ???

Why, of course you cannot.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 12, 2017, 05:48:48 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2017, 06:24:15 PM
You know that theme that Beethoven loved so much, the one from 'Creatures of Prometheus' that he used for the contradanse WoO14 #7, then for the 15 variations for piano Opus 35, the Eroica Variations, and then for the final movement of Symphony #3?  Yes, that one. I really, really don't like that theme. There, I said it. :D

8)
Me neither, and I love Ludwig as much as anyone on this forum. That theme is just not that interesting.

I also really dislike Mozart's variations on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. It gets broadcasted every other day on the radio. I don't see what is so interesting about this piece.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2017, 05:50:10 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 12, 2017, 05:48:48 AM
I also really dislike Mozart's variations on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. It gets broadcasted every other day on the radio. I don't see what is so interesting about this piece.

There's nothing wrong with the piece.  But, good grief, it is not anything anyone need hear every day, fer gosh sakes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Thatfabulousalien on July 12, 2017, 05:51:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 12, 2017, 05:45:26 AM
Why, of course you cannot.


I listen to it all the time but it's annoying me right now:


"Daaahhh Daaaah Daaahhhh Daaahhh Daahh Da da daaaahh da da da "

You know that variation/subject?  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2017, 07:15:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 12, 2017, 12:08:35 AM
I love it. I am not sure but it must have been one of the first Beethoven themes and movements I loved all the way through. The first Beethoven symphonies I encountered were 3,6, and 9 and the first two movements of the Eroica were pretty tough for me with almost boring stretches between the "good bits". But the finale with that great melody was no problem.
(The first large scale Beethoven piece I similarly cherished in all movements was probably the 5th piano concerto but this was a few months later, I think.)

I'm sure you are in the majority, I see a lot of people post the finale of the 3rd as their favorite movement (it's the scherzo for me). Obviously Beethoven loved it, he used it at least 4 times. It doesn't bother me to not be on the same page as him (or you, in this case), it is like the following:

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 12, 2017, 05:48:48 AM
Me neither, and I love Ludwig as much as anyone on this forum. That theme is just not that interesting.

I also really dislike Mozart's variations on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. It gets broadcasted every other day on the radio. I don't see what is so interesting about this piece.

Not to defend that insipid little tune, I deplore it at least as much as you do. But when Mozart wrote those variations, 'Twinkle Twinkle...' didn't exist. It was just a French folksong that caught his ear. I will assume that at some point in time his little variations became popular enough that some ass decided to set a lullaby poem to them, and the rest is history. People are strange that way: if you love something, kill it... ::)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 12, 2017, 07:24:35 AM
Today I think that the first two movements of the Eroica are the best but as a beginner they were too long and too difficult for me. And I still like the finale a lot (and think that it is a somewhat underrated movement). I also love the variations op.35.
It is just a little contredanse, so it is not supposed to be all that interesting. But it is far more inspired than Diabelli's waltz!

As for unpopular Beethoven opinions: I don't care all that much for several of the most famous "named" piano sonatas like Pathetique, Appassionata, Waldstein. Of course, they are very good. But so are many less famous ones and the ones mentioned are not among my favorites (the "Tempest" is a big favorite of mine, though).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2017, 07:44:38 AM
The history of  Twinkle, twinkle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkle,_Twinkle,_Little_Star
And the song as Mozart knew it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ah!_vous_dirai-je,_maman

Wikipedia gives a list of composers to avoid if you don't like the tune

QuoteMany songs in various languages have been based on the "Ah! vous dirai-je, maman" melody. In English, "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star", the "Alphabet Song", and "Baa, Baa, Black Sheep" are all based on this melody.

The German Christmas carol "Morgen kommt der Weihnachtsmann (de)" with words by Hoffmann von Fallersleben, also uses the melody, as does the Hungarian Christmas carol "Hull a pelyhes fehér hó", the Dutch "Altijd is Kortjakje ziek (nl)", the Spanish "Campanita del lugar (es)", the Greek "Φεγγαράκι μου λαμπρό" and the Turkish "Daha Dün Annemizin".

Several classical compositions have been inspired by this tune:

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Twelve Variations on "Ah vous dirai-je, Maman" (K. 265 / K. 300e) (1781 or 1782)
Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, Variations on "Ah vous dirai-je maman" in G major (Wf XII: 2) (BR A 45) (1st publ. ca. 1880)
Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 94 (Surprise Symphony), second movement (andante) (1791); Haydn also quotes it The Seasons: Spring*
Jean-Baptiste Cardon (hu) (1760–1803), Variations for harp on "Ah! vous dirai-je, maman"
Theodor von Schacht, 3rd movement (Allegretto con variazioni) of his clarinet concerto in B flat major
Franz Liszt, Album Leaf: "Ah! vous dirai-je, maman" (1833) (S.163b)
Johann Christian Heinrich Rinck, Variations and finale for organ on "Ah! vous dirai-je, maman", op. 90 (pub. 1828)
Adolphe Adam, Bravura Variations from the opera Le toréador (1849)
Camille Saint-Saëns, The Carnival of the Animals (1886), 12th movement (Fossiles) quotes the tune
Ernő Dohnányi, Variations on a Nursery Tune, Op. 25 (1914)
Erwin Schulhoff, Ten Variations on "Ah! vous dirai-je, maman" and Fugue
John Corigliano, The Mannheim Rocket
Harl McDonald, Children's Symphony, 2nd theme of 1st movement (Baa, Baa, Black Sheep variant) (1948)

* Gurn are you sure that tune is insipid? >:D
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2017, 07:57:33 AM
Yes, sir, yes, sir: three bags full.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2017, 08:20:19 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2017, 07:44:38 AM
The history of  Twinkle, twinkle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkle,_Twinkle,_Little_Star
And the song as Mozart knew it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ah!_vous_dirai-je,_maman

Wikipedia gives a list of composers to avoid if you don't like the tune

* Gurn are you sure that tune is insipid? >:D

Well, Haydn had an ear for interesting things. But if you think about where and how he uses it, it is like a minor scale, up and back down, and then he moves on. The diminished tone makes it interesting again, and it's swift disappearance doesn't hurt either. :D

Haydn used a lot of insipid little tunes, he just knew how to make the most of them and then move on. I think the aversion to "Twinkle" stems more from the incessant repetition, it's like what, 12 variations?  Yikes! :o

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 12, 2017, 08:31:26 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2017, 08:20:19 AM


I think the aversion to "Twinkle" stems more from the incessant repetition, it's like what, 12 variations?  Yikes! :o

8)
Right, the variations themselves are pretty awful - you almost can't believe Mozart wrote them...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2017, 08:35:15 AM
I'l have to dig out my Van Oort (not really--it's on a top shelf of my CD rack) and listen to that piece, been quite a while for me.

Mind you some of those composers probably used it because it was insipid (Saint Saens, for instance).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on July 17, 2017, 02:09:17 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 12, 2017, 05:40:03 AM
I can't get Art Of Fugue out of my head   ???

I'd advise purging it or exorcising it out; because you want room in your head for other stuff.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 23, 2017, 06:07:31 AM
Might as well mention this here, since it probably belongs in this thread: I greatly dislike the music of Urlicht-movement in Resurrection Symphony during certain lines which I happen to dislike from poetry perspective as well. Thank you to Mahlerian for pointing out the same music recurring modified in the finale (for some reason I have great difficulties in recognizing the recurring themes in Mahler's symphonies when they do in fact recur).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on July 28, 2017, 05:45:06 PM
The Price is Right's soundtrack is better than half of all the music of the classical era.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on July 28, 2017, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: The Six on July 28, 2017, 05:45:06 PM
The Price is Right's soundtrack is better than half of all the music of any era.

FTFY

This is a simple consequence of Sturgeon's Law
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 30, 2017, 06:51:39 AM
My piano teacher never forgave me for not wanting to play Haydn's last piano sonata in Eb.
I still find it insipid and boring even though I tried to warm up to it several times just to see if I could change my own opinion about it.

ZB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 30, 2017, 06:57:06 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 12, 2017, 07:24:35 AM
As for unpopular Beethoven opinions: I don't care all that much for several of the most famous "named" piano sonatas like Pathetique, Appassionata, Waldstein. Of course, they are very good. But so are many less famous ones and the ones mentioned are not among my favorites (the "Tempest" is a big favorite of mine, though).

On the subject of Beethoven, I cannot bear the Chorale Fantasia. Also, I feel that in some of his early and middle period piano sonatas he wrote filler for the sake of form and proportion, mainly in transitions but not necessarily interesting material.

ZB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 30, 2017, 10:57:03 AM
One of the main points of Beethoven's style in any of his periods is that he does use a lot of seemingly uninteresting material ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 30, 2017, 01:48:07 PM
I sometimes like pointing out to people that the Arietta of Op. 111, frequently described as profound and magical, is almost exactly the same as the theme of the Diabelli Variations (just with vi substituted for V in the second half), frequently described as trite and banal. The bedrock of Beethoven's style is materials too basic to even be properly called themes; "like bread, it cannot cloy" (Rosen re one of the piano concertos)

This is not to say that his materials aren't memorable or interesting, but usually because of what he does with them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 30, 2017, 10:54:42 PM
NB  Rosen wrote this about Mozart's K 503, i, famous for the banality of its material. Maybe he also used the phrase with some Beethoven pieces.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on July 30, 2017, 11:29:32 PM
Oh oops. I was misremembering it re Beethoven Op. 15. >.> Apropos though—that was apparently one of the Mozart concertos Beethoven loved the most and played most often, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 01, 2017, 01:42:02 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 01, 2017, 01:39:26 AM
Beethoven's Op 2 sonata is surprisingly good upon revisiting (compared to sonatas 6 upwards)  :o
If you're saying that there is only one sonata in the Op. 2, that is certainly an unpopular opinion.  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 01, 2017, 05:44:10 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 28, 2017, 07:29:09 PM

This is a simple consequence of Sturgeon's Law

Not really. That "Law" is not scaleable. Because it is not true that 90% of Beethoven's music is crap.

So while I do not know the music of that TV show, it is obviously possible that it is among the 90% of some domain that is crap. But even if it is not, it could be worse than some of the "lower half" of some other domain because that latter domain is overall on such a high level.
So the claim (different from the one quoted) that the music of a certain TV show is better than the lower half of any domain is wrong (because the domain could be the works of Beethoven or Mozart etc.) By an analoguous argument it is not obvious that the music from that TV show is better than the lower half of some wider domain, say Baroque music 1650-1700 or so. It could well be but it does not have to be. The only thing is needed is that that TV show music is not all that great and that there are some periods with very good music (and not such a large spread in quality, so that the lower half is still pretty good).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on August 01, 2017, 11:27:47 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 01, 2017, 05:44:10 AM
Not really. That "Law" is not scaleable. Because it is not true that 90% of Beethoven's music is crap.

Of course it isn't scaleable. If it where, it would contradict itself, because by infinite induction everything becomes crap:

90 % of Beethoven which isn't crap (10 % of all of it) is crap => 90 % + 90 % of 10 % ( =9 %) of Beethoven which isn't crap is crap => ... => 100 % of Beethoven is crap, but that contradicts the law itself ( + of course what we think about Beethoven).

The criteria for "crappiness" dictates how many prosent of everything is crap. The irony is that this criteria follows Sturgeon's law too: ~90 % of all people have crappy criteria for crappiness.  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 01, 2017, 12:05:12 PM
There is another complication with such hard and fast 80-20 type rules.
The thresholds for publication and dissemination are very different in different domains and epochs.
The threshold for 20th century science fiction (where Sturgeon's quip originated) is fairly low. A lot of stuff could be published in some pulp magazine. The threshold for 21st century fan fiction is basically zero. Literally every sick crap imaginable can be published on some website. (And some of that sick crap can even become a bestseller, like 50 shades of Grey) The threshold for some book or sheet music in the 17th century to be printed and disseminated is far higher. So it is very unlikely that standard percentages could be applied to such different domains.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 01, 2017, 07:28:58 PM
It's not an opinion, but ... I do not think I have ever actually heard a Grateful Dead song. I must have heard snippets, and probably something on the radio or at a party, but I have no awareness of ever having heard a GD song in its entirety. Am I the only person in America above the age of 25 who can make that claim? Just how unusual is this?

I did just listen to 5 or 6 short bits on YouTube, and I haven't missed much. But it doesn't even sound familiar at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on August 01, 2017, 08:44:02 PM
If you've heard one dead song it would be "Truckin'."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on August 02, 2017, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 01, 2017, 08:44:02 PM
If you've heard one dead song it would be "Truckin'."

Or "Casey Jones." The first one I heard, and I heard it a lot, was "Touch of Grey," but that may be specific to my age group.

I never really got into them, only know the hits.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on August 02, 2017, 09:51:06 AM
Quote from: Pat B on August 02, 2017, 09:45:12 AM
Or "Casey Jones." The first one I heard, and I heard it a lot, was "Touch of Grey," but that may be specific to my age group.

I never really got into them, only know the hits.

I forgot about "Touch of Grey." Never listened to anything by the dead on purpose, just occasional play on the old album-orientated radio stations when I used to listen in the car. I'm surprised at how conventional dead songs sound, considering the loyalty of their following. I guess their live shows were something out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 02, 2017, 11:26:34 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 02, 2017, 09:51:06 AM
I forgot about "Touch of Grey." Never listened to anything by the dead on purpose, just occasional play on the old album-orientated radio stations when I used to listen in the car. I'm surprised at how conventional dead songs sound, considering the loyalty of their following. I guess their live shows were something out of the ordinary.
There's a new Amazon prime series on them, which is what prompted my thought. I expect I will give it a look, and it should feature some concert excepts.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2017, 11:50:24 AM


Quote from: Scarpia on August 02, 2017, 09:51:06 AM
I forgot about "Touch of Grey."

Dawn is breaking everywhere.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2017, 11:51:19 AM


Quote from: Pat B on August 02, 2017, 09:45:12 AM
Or “Casey Jones.”

Come hear Uncle John's band.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 02, 2017, 12:34:33 PM
Quote from: Pat B on August 02, 2017, 09:45:12 AM
I never really got into them, only know the hits.

The Dead only had one hit: 1987`s "Touch of Grey" reached number 9 on the Billboard Charts. "Truckin'", there second highest chart single, peaked at 64. A few other songs, already mentioned, appear occasionally on classic rock radio.

Quote from: Ken B on August 02, 2017, 11:26:34 AM
There's a new Amazon prime series on them, which is what prompted my thought. I expect I will give it a look, and it should feature some concert excepts.


There are only a few Deadheads on this forum: HIPster, me...can't think of anyone else. If you didn't experience them live, it's not likely you'll "get on the bus" at this late point.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 03, 2017, 06:28:14 AM
Simon Boccanegra is Verdi's greatest opera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 03, 2017, 06:49:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 30, 2017, 10:54:42 PM
NB  Rosen wrote this about Mozart's K 503, i, famous for the banality of its material. Maybe he also used the phrase with some Beethoven pieces.

Ha, ha, I did get the phrase "filler" from "Sonata Forms" or the "Classical Style", can't remember which book...

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on August 03, 2017, 09:47:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 02, 2017, 12:34:33 PM
The Dead only had one hit: 1987`s "Touch of Grey" reached number 9 on the Billboard Charts. "Truckin'", there second highest chart single, peaked at 64. A few other songs, already mentioned, appear occasionally on classic rock radio.

Okay then, I only know their hit and some of the songs that got played on classic rock radio.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2017, 11:44:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 02, 2017, 12:34:33 PM

There are only a few Deadheads on this forum: HIPster, me...can't think of anyone else. If you didn't experience them live, it's not likely you'll "get on the bus" at this late point.

Sarge

I was never a Deadhead, Sarge, but I liked their music. In 1978-79 I lived in San Francisco (20th St right off Castro) and my lady and I were looking for something to do on New Year's Eve, so we went to this Closing of Winterland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_Winterland), which we really didn't have any expectation of being such a huge event, just a concert, you know? Bill Graham, promoter extraordinaire, rode down from the balcony to the stage inside a huge 'joint' on a wire and threw joints out to the audience the whole way. The music was great, best NYE ever, I must say. I didn't even know it was made into a DVD or even an album until I just now Googled this. I only remember the date, it was the only NYE I was living there, can't mistake it for another. So that was cool.... :)

8)
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 03, 2017, 11:48:16 AM
Dude, you &amp; your lady are legends!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 03, 2017, 11:48:16 AM
Dude, you &amp; your lady are legends!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

:D  Who knew?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 03, 2017, 05:21:39 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2017, 11:44:43 AM
I was never a Deadhead, Sarge, but I liked their music. In 1978-79 I lived in San Francisco (20th St right off Castro) and my lady and I were looking for something to do on New Year's Eve, so we went to this Closing of Winterland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_Winterland), which we really didn't have any expectation of being such a huge event, just a concert, you know? Bill Graham, promoter extraordinaire, rode down from the balcony to the stage inside a huge 'joint' on a wire and threw joints out to the audience the whole way. The music was great, best NYE ever, I must say. I didn't even know it was made into a DVD or even an album until I just now Googled this. I only remember the date, it was the only NYE I was living there, can't mistake it for another. So that was cool.... :)

8)

Ah-Ha!

A gentleman with a past.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2017, 06:10:26 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 03, 2017, 05:21:39 PM
Ah-Ha!

A gentleman with a past.


:D  Yes, but 'pasts' are better when you know about them yourself. I thought it was just a great concert and some free weed... who knew?  ;)

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 05, 2017, 04:53:47 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 05, 2017, 02:38:46 AM
Would I be wrong if I said that Daphnis et Chloé was the greatest orchestra work ever composed.......before 1910?  ;)

Given when it was composed, yes, you would be wrong. This is the Unpopular Opinions thread. Alternative Facts is down the hall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 05, 2017, 05:18:11 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 05, 2017, 02:38:46 AM
Would I be wrong if I said that Daphnis et Chloé was the greatest orchestra work ever composed.......before 1910?  ;)

After Miroirs, it's probably my favorite from Ravel.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 05, 2017, 05:25:33 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 05, 2017, 05:14:08 AM
Fine before 1912, this isn't the first time I've fucked up on single digest

It was completed in 1912. Try "before 1913".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 05, 2017, 05:36:13 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 05, 2017, 02:38:46 AM
Would I be wrong if I said that Daphnis et Chloé was the greatest orchestra work ever composed.......before 1910?  ;)
Orfeo has picked on the less wrong half of your statement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 05, 2017, 07:19:45 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 05, 2017, 06:28:28 AM
And performed in 1912!

Yes... I'm sorry, are we having difficulties with the difference between "in" and "before"?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 05, 2017, 03:10:50 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 05, 2017, 03:04:35 PM
Ravel wrote music?

Well, there's Bolero 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 05, 2017, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 05, 2017, 03:13:59 PM

To which I am a believer  :-*

It's his best piece but I cannot say so here, since it is a popular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Turner on August 06, 2017, 10:06:26 AM
Bolero is the poor man´s Frontispice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATT-1vmZZAk

Well, maybe.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 06, 2017, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: Turner on August 06, 2017, 10:06:26 AM
Bolero is the poor man´s Frontispice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATT-1vmZZAk

Well, maybe.
Frontispice is an extraordinary jewel.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on August 08, 2017, 05:27:02 AM
Quote from: Turner on August 06, 2017, 10:06:26 AM
Bolero is the poor man´s Frontispice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATT-1vmZZAk

Well, maybe.
Nice one, never heard Frontispice before. I just found a very good performance with Gilbert Kalish and Paul Jacobs. They play some earlier Ravel too on the same thing, they make it sound interesting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on August 08, 2017, 06:25:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 08, 2017, 05:27:02 AM
Nice one, never heard Frontispice before. I just found a very good performance with Gilbert Kalish and Paul Jacobs. They play some earlier Ravel too on the same thing, they make it sound interesting.
If any piece of music can be labelled "enigmatic", it's Frontspice IMHO. A real jewel.

That perfomance by Jacobs and Kalish (the fifth hand being Teresa Sterne's) is on this wonderful Nonesuch CD (reissued by rkiv):

[asin]B000005IVX[/asin]
One of my favourite Ravel CDs (Jan DeGaetani is great in the Chansons madécasses, and the Habanera is the most seductive I've ever heard).

By the way, there's an orchestral version of Frontispice arranged by none other than Pierre Boulez (his only published arrangement of music by another composer AFAIK);

https://www.youtube.com/v/dYdOjdP5-oI

One could think at moments that one is listening to an orchestral Notation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on August 08, 2017, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: ritter on August 08, 2017, 06:25:28 AM
If any piece of music can be labelled "enigmatic", it's Frontspice IMHO. A real jewel.

(the fifth hand being Teresa Sterne's)

I thought it was a typo when I read fifth hand! So this is for two pianos and five hands is it? How mad!

One piano

https://www.youtube.com/v/Zw1RHoQtsyE
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 10, 2017, 01:49:23 PM
Is Josef the best Strauss?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 10, 2017, 11:46:01 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 10, 2017, 01:49:23 PM
Is Josef the best Strauss?
In waltzes and stuff he is as good or better as Johann jun. but as he was a part-time composer most of his (rather short) life (he was trained as an engineer and actually invented some kind of street cleaning machine) I don't know if he wrote any full scale operetta (and if so, they seem forgotten), so if one considers the "Fledermaus" and the "Gypsy Baron" pretty good pieces of light musical theater, I think one has to give Johann jun. the edge.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 12:48:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 10, 2017, 01:49:23 PM
Is Josef the best Strauss?

You mean Joseph Lanner, right?  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2017, 02:03:58 AM
Not an unpopular opinion, perhaps, but wouldn't it be time to acknowledge the fact that the Strauss family, and Lehar, were Jewish? Something that really caused the nazis trouble?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/04/vanessathorpe.theobserver
https://www.jweekly.com/1999/04/09/jewish-roots-of-composer-johann-strauss-emerging/

Would be a nice theme for the Vienna New Year's Concerts.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 02:53:36 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2017, 02:03:58 AM
Not an unpopular opinion, perhaps, but wouldn't it be time to acknowledge the fact that the Strauss family, and Lehar, were Jewish?

Isn't it common knowledge?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2017, 03:09:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 02:53:36 AMIsn't it common knowledge?
Not at all, no.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 03:23:09 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2017, 03:09:21 AM
Not at all, no.

Well, it turns out that Lehar was not Jewish at all. His wife was a Jewish convert to Roman Catholicism, and it was she, not he, who was offered the "honorary Arianship"  by Hitler.

Imre Kálmán, otoh, was indeed Jewish.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 11, 2017, 03:32:11 AM
It isn't and according to the common sources (incl. the ones linked above) I find that Strauss senior had a Jewish grandfather who had converted to catholicism. I don't see how this makes Johann senior or the younger Strausses Jewish except by some very odd criteria (certainly not by the common ones of having a Jewish mother and practising the religion). I also fail to see how and why this matters. Johann junior's 3rd wife was Jewish and the bad treatment of his stepdaughter from that wife is mentioned in the article, but again this hardly makes a man with apparently only one Jewish great-grandparent jewish in any meaningful (except in the Nazi "tainted bloodline") sense.

This probably not quite serious website calls Strauss jun. "barely a Jew", so I guess the converted great-grandfather was the only Jewish ancestor.
http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=983

This site gives the false impression that Johann senior's father was a Jew (rather than the catholic son of a converted Jew and a gentile woman) but still opines that "We ought not to consider the Strauss family Jewish except in the eyes of the enemies of God and man."

http://jbuff.com/c080703.htm

Lehar had a Jewish (converted to catholicism) wife who became "honorably Aryan" because her husband was so popular with Hitler; I do not find anything about a possible jewish decent of Lehar.

So there is not much to recognize, accept for a distant heritage we would hardly ever mention in any other case (e.g. if Johann junior's great-grandfather had been an Irishman), so why stress it in this particular case?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2017, 03:49:08 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 11, 2017, 03:32:11 AMso why stress it in this particular case?
Obviously, for one good reason only: what happened with them in the Nazi time.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on August 11, 2017, 03:54:21 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 11, 2017, 03:32:11 AMI do not find anything about jewish decent.
Might want to fix that typo.  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 03:58:38 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2017, 02:03:58 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/04/vanessathorpe.theobserver

Lehar, like Strauss, was of Jewish descent,

This is incorrect. Lehar was not of Jewish descent. And I agree with Jo that having a Jewish grandfather who converted to Roman Catholicism can hardly qualify someone for a "Jewish descent".

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2017, 04:05:07 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 03:58:38 AM
Lehar, like Strauss, was of Jewish descent,

This is incorrect. Lehar was not of Jewish descent. And I agree with Jo that having a Jewish grandfather who converted to Roman Catholicism can hardly qualify someone for a "Jewish descent".
Again, I'm not talking about us, I'm talking about the Nazis - for whom he would have counted as 'Jewish' anyhow, the more so since Johann II married a Jewish woman. IIRC, there was some cleaning done of the archives in Vienna after the 1938 Anschluss.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 04:10:54 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2017, 02:03:58 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/04/vanessathorpe.theobserver

Hitler, who is believed to have said: 'I decide who is Jewish.'

That's also incorrect. It was actually said by Karl Lueger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Lueger)

Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2017, 04:05:07 AM
Again, I'm not talking about us, I'm talking about the Nazis - for whom he would have counted as 'Jewish' anyhow, the more so since Johann II married a Jewish woman. IIRC, there was some cleaning done of the archives in Vienna after the 1938 Anschluss.

I'll give you Strauss,  but Lehar was not Jewish.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on August 11, 2017, 04:17:12 AM
I believe the Nazis would call them Achteljuden or some similar term.

Halakha is fairly clear that you need to be born to a Jewish mother, or convert to Judaism to be a Jew. But it's definitely true that having any kind of Jewish ancestor, however remote and non-matrilineal, or a spouse with the same, could get you in trouble in Germany. I'm not sure if there is a good term for people who faced anti-semitism without being themselves Jewish but I'm happy to consider them honorary Jews even if a conservative or orthodox rabbi wouldn't >.>
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2017, 04:21:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 04:10:54 AMI'll give you Strauss,  but Lehar was not Jewish.
I was only thinking of the Strauss clan - and let Lehar (did I once see his house in Slovakia? I guess so) slip in because one of these popular articles mentioned him as well.
I think the story of the forgery of the Vienna records of their Jewish descent is told here: http://www.johann-strauss.at/wissen/faelschung_e.shtml

'The troublesome Strauss entry [in the Marriage register] had been removed ... and Strauss music, 'which is so German', as the Nazi paper Der Stürmer put it, could continue to be broadcast by all radio stations in the Reich. In order to achieve this noble end there was, in terms of the opinion of the day, nothing wrong in perpetrating the minor forgery of a document.'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 04:30:42 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2017, 04:21:46 AM
I was only thinking of the Strauss clan - and let Lehar (did I once see his house in Slovakia? I guess so) slip in because one of these popular articles mentioned him as well.
I think the story of the forgery of the Vienna records of their Jewish descent is told here: http://www.johann-strauss.at/wissen/faelschung_e.shtml

'The troublesome Strauss entry [in the Marriage register] had been removed ... and Strauss music, 'which is so German', as the Nazi paper Der Stürmer put it, could continue to be broadcast by all radio stations in the Reich. In order to achieve this noble end there was, in terms of the opinion of the day, nothing wrong in perpetrating the minor forgery of a document.'

It's somehow amusing that Hitler and his acolytes managed to be both Wagnerians and Leharians, Brucknerians and Straussians. Siegfried and Hanna Glawari, a match made in Walhalla?  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ghost Sonata on August 11, 2017, 04:46:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 11, 2017, 04:10:54 AM
Hitler, who is believed to have said: 'I decide who is Jewish.'

That's also incorrect. It was actually said by Karl Lueger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Lueger)

I'll give you Strauss,  but Lehar was not Jewish.

I thought it was Göring who said that about Erhard Milch, in charge of aircraft procurement for the Luftwaffe and who reported directly to him.  "Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich..."  Perhaps there were several "deciders."  ::)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 11, 2017, 08:16:54 AM
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on August 11, 2017, 04:46:16 AM
I thought it was Göring who said that about Erhard Milch, in charge of aircraft procurement for the Luftwaffe and who reported directly to him.  "Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich..."  Perhaps there were several "deciders."  ::)

If it was worth money, Goering would want the power to decide.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on August 11, 2017, 08:28:59 AM
There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on August 11, 2017, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2017, 08:28:59 AM
There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.

I agree, you can never have enough.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 11, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2017, 08:28:59 AM
There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.
Quote from: nodogen on August 11, 2017, 09:04:13 AM
I agree, you can never have enough.

Topic nazis!

;) >:D :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 11, 2017, 09:40:59 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 10, 2017, 01:49:23 PM
Is Josef the best Strauss?

No but Josephslegende is one of (Richard) Strauss's best works!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ghost Sonata on August 11, 2017, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2017, 08:28:59 AM
There are not enough discussions involving Nazis.

What would the History Channel do without them?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 12, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 12, 2017, 04:43:27 PM
Holy fuck!

I just had Itunes on shuffle, then Tracees by Xenakis came on, then I had all these teenage memories flooding back to me. What's happened to me, why can't I have that enthusiasm I once had for Xenakis back?  :'( :'( :'( :'(

You have just learned a lesson about nostalgia and "the good old days".  ;) but  $:) :blank:

8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 13, 2017, 06:35:25 AM
Quote from: Ken B on August 12, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
You have just learned a lesson about nostalgia and "the good old days".  ;) but  $:) :blank:

8)

Oh yeah, I get that feeling when I hear If You Leave by Orchestral Manoeuvres In The Dark.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 13, 2017, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 13, 2017, 01:41:54 PM
I must have been really tired when I posted that because it was meant to go in the "Pieces that have recently blown you away" thread  ???  :laugh:

Oh, I thought this was the "Unpopular Opinions That Have Recently Blown You Away" thread.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 17, 2017, 03:15:40 AM
Dvorak's opus numbers are important and useful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 17, 2017, 05:04:48 AM
Dvorak's tone poems are underrated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 17, 2017, 05:13:24 AM
Quote from: Alberich on August 17, 2017, 05:04:48 AM
Dvorak's tone poems are underrated.

I think my opinion is more unpopular than your opinion.  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: millionrainbows on August 17, 2017, 11:29:45 AM
I'm in agreement with "The Six"'s OP way back 123 pages ago. The diatonic era is boring. But I have found a workaround: verticality. I now view the fragmented motives and rhythmic fragments of Beethoven's attempts at melodicism, which he sequences through the levels of the boring diatonic scale, to be simply the artifacts of his real goal: vertical elaboration of harmonic stations. He muscles his way, via propulsive rhythms, "forward" into a supposedly horizontal narrative development, while all the time his only interest is THE BIG NOTE. Must have been that incessant ringing in his ears.
Bach is a much better melodist, and harmonically interesting as well, but there are no really weird or chromatic mediant shifts there. By the time Beethoven gets to the Ninth, the chromatic submediant movement by thirds is in full bloom. The roots of the chords create a melody, or at least outline chord arpeggios.

If I want horizontal melodies and development, with Beethoven-like craftsmanship, I'll go to the Boccherini string quartets. But they're a little boring by comparison. At least Beethoven was trying to get out of the box.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on August 18, 2017, 12:17:27 AM
Quote from: millionrainbows on August 17, 2017, 11:29:45 AM
I'm in agreement with "The Six"'s OP way back 123 pages ago.

Wow, that was a delayed response if I ever saw one!

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2017, 12:26:24 AM
The problem with the idea that the classical era is "boring" is that most of the supposedly less boring composers of the 19th century from Beethoven and Schubert through Mahler thorougly admired the Viennese classicist composers and emulated many features of their music. This would be a very curious thing if this music was really boring. How can it be boring and still have been so inspiring and apparently worthy of admiration by supposedly "more advanced", "less boring" composers?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on August 18, 2017, 12:47:17 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 18, 2017, 12:26:24 AM
The problem with the idea that the classical era is "boring" is that most of the supposedly less boring composers of the 19th century from Beethoven and Schubert through Mahler thorougly admired the Viennese classicist composers and emulated many features of their music. This would be a very curious thing if this music was really boring. How can it be boring and still have been so inspiring and apparently worthy of admiration by supposedly "more advanced", "less boring" composers?

If someone finds diatonic era boring it means that someone finds diatonic era boring.

Diatonic era doesn't have an objective level of boredom.

Beethoven could not compare his own music to music composed after his death. We can, almost 200 years worth.

We are spoiled badly, because our access to art and entertainment is so limitless these days. No wonder if we get bored so easily.

Eras that someone might find boring hundreds of years later might be necessory phases in art.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2017, 01:03:52 AM
And how is most of the baroque not "diatonic"?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on August 18, 2017, 01:15:32 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 18, 2017, 12:42:26 AM
The problem with the idea that the classical era is "boring" is that it is solid bullshit, that's the problem.

No, the reality is we have ~7 billion opinions about the issue. Being boring is not an objective property. The amount of megapixels in a digital camera is an objectice property. Saying classical era is boring is similar to saying liquorice tastes bad.

Here is one unpopular opionion: Our tastes are much more arbitrary and irrational than we think, but we can't help it much. Changing our tastes requires a lot of work and time, so we pretty much must live with the tastes we have and that's ok because we are human beings.

Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 18, 2017, 12:50:49 AM
All opinions are bullshit though, aren't they?

No. Many opinions are enlightened, rational and rooted in experiences and facts. Here are some very good opinions:

- All people are equal
- Deities do not most probably exist
- The real part of all non-trivial zeros of Riemann's zeta function is 1/2*
- Climate chance is true and a gigantic problem to mankind

* If you can prove this is a FACT you get a million dollars.  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on August 18, 2017, 01:17:56 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 18, 2017, 01:03:52 AM
And how is most of the baroque not "diatonic"?

I'm curious to hear how baroque diatonic is different from classical diatonic because I am idiot when it comes to music theory...  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 18, 2017, 04:40:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 18, 2017, 12:47:17 AM
If someone finds diatonic era boring it means that someone finds diatonic era boring.

Diatonic era doesn't have an objective level of boredom.

Very sensible.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 18, 2017, 04:40:48 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 18, 2017, 12:50:49 AM
All opinions are bullshit though, aren't they?

Well done, sir.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2017, 04:47:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 18, 2017, 01:17:56 AM
I'm curious to hear how baroque diatonic is different from classical diatonic because I am idiot when it comes to music theory...  :P
I agree. This was precisely my point.
It does not make a lot of sense to describe the classical period as "diatonic" because while true this is not distinctive of that period because holds for most of the baroque as well, also for quite a bit of romantic and pre-baroque music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: millionrainbows on August 18, 2017, 09:34:41 AM
I'm interested in masses, too: masses of sound, like in Varese! Ba-da-bing!

Diatonic is limiting, for one. Seven notes out of a possible 12: I'll score it a "7" on the boring graph.

Of course, 12 notes can begin to get boring as well, if they are circulated evenly. What keeps Western tonality from descending into boring-ness is it's B-F tritone, which adds dissonance and instability. Then we can explore all 12 notes, eventually.

Poor Beethoven, struggling in the Hammerklavier, the Ninth, and the Late Quartets to try and escape from diatonicism. He did it by thirds. He never was much of a melodist, according to Bernstein, but what does he know?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 18, 2017, 10:14:10 AM
Shakespeare doesn't use Q enough. I give him 25 out of 26 on the boring scale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: millionrainbows on August 18, 2017, 11:37:54 AM
Shakespeare had to compose to create any kind of story, mood, or setting. Tonalities are determined pre-compositionally, using scales. I think that tonalities contribute a lot to whatever is created compositionally. The tonality is like a harmonic template.

I suppose Shakespeare could have done the same thing pre-compositionally if he had decided to use only 15 of the 26 letters. But I think it would be much richer and interesting if he used all 26.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 18, 2017, 11:46:45 AM
You know what's a boring set? The Cantor set.




Bonus points for explaining the joke
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: bwv 1080 on August 18, 2017, 12:12:29 PM
Quote from: millionrainbows on August 18, 2017, 11:37:54 AM
Shakespeare had to compose to create any kind of story, mood, or setting. Tonalities are determined pre-compositionally, using scales. I think that tonalities contribute a lot to whatever is created compositionally. The tonality is like a harmonic template.

I suppose Shakespeare could have done the same thing pre-compositionally if he had decided to use only 15 of the 26 letters. But I think it would be much richer and interesting if he used all 26.

Find me a Beethoven sonata that does not use all 12 tones
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on August 18, 2017, 12:16:55 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on August 18, 2017, 12:12:29 PM
Find me a Beethoven sonata that does not use all 12 tones
Ah but did he use them all equally and all in the same order. Now that would interesting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on August 18, 2017, 12:20:05 PM
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2017, 12:16:55 PM
Ah but did he use them all equally and all in the same order. Now that would interesting.

I'm not aware of any composer who did that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on August 18, 2017, 02:25:49 PM
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2017, 11:46:45 AM
You know what's a boring set? The Cantor set.
Bonus points for explaining the joke

The Cantor set is a fractal repeating itself ad nauseum, but mathematicians find it interesting. Menger sponge is even more interesting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 01, 2017, 10:07:43 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on September 01, 2017, 07:44:58 PM
I've said in quite a few threads already but classical vocal music (except from choral stuff, which is usually way denser) tends to be on my bad side. I don't find the typical "classically trained" (aka castrated) soprano, tenor, alto, bass etc to be very compelling, I tend to feel it ruins great songs/lieder.

There are exceptions (quite a few) but this is my stance.  :-X

::) Perhaps this thread should be renamed the Castrated Opinions thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 02, 2017, 12:36:02 AM
I would be interested in opinions from trained singers.
But I think for performances in comparably large churches, theaters etc. something like the classically "supported" style of singing had to be developed, otherwise voices would not carry sufficiently. Another demand is reasonable precise and stable intonation for comparably complex polyphony in Western music since the high/late MA. All these demands make it plausible that the singing style has to differ from a mother softly singing a lullaby or a bunch of drunks raucously bellowing a song around a campfire. But the two latter are "natural situations", so we tend to find the classical style "unnatural". Another reason is that since the arrival of the microphone, a singer can "naturally" sing softly with an untrained voice and most people unter 70 probably grew up getting used mostly to popular singers crooning into a microphone (as well as their usually untrained mothers or other children in school singing) so they find the classical style unnatural.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on September 02, 2017, 12:53:43 AM
There is no such thing as trained classical singers vs popular ones: one can go from one to the other.  Florent Pagny a french pop singer with a beautiful and powerful voice has done opera arias.  Inversely so many opera singers have done popular music that I want to say please no more.  There are specifics to classical singing, but the one thing you absolutely need is a powerful voice because you need to fill a big opera hall or a church (Jo post).  Amplified voices in the realm of classical music gives poor to awful results.
So Celine Dion, Florent Pagny have done classical because they have the vocal means to do so.  A thin voice a la Justin Bieber would not make it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on September 02, 2017, 08:10:22 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on September 01, 2017, 10:19:34 PM
Why does the classical tradition seem to be opposed (with the exception of some modern composers) to the natural singing voice? Why has it retained this artificial or overtly specified singing style over the millennium?

A trained voice is necessary to project, especially in a situation where the singer is competing against a full orchestra.  Singing Wagner with amplified untrained voices would simply sound strange, although John Adams in Nixon in China and other works has the singers use amplification (though still with the traditional vocal style).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on September 02, 2017, 08:48:16 AM
Quote from: Spineur on September 02, 2017, 12:53:43 AM
There is no such thing as trained classical singers vs popular ones: one can go from one to the other. 
I'm no expert in voices (I'm very much into opera, but don't see the vocal element as paramont above all others that make up this summa artis), but I tend to desagree with this. An untrained voice will not be able to produce the vocal effects that are required in many works, mainly in the bel canto repertoire, such as messa di voce, trills, correct attacks at the notes, domination of the passage, etc. . And then, of course, there's the matter of projection over the orchestra and/or in large venues (something that will apply even to the art song genre), as most posters have pointed out. And yes, amplification is not an option. 

I would add that most (if not all) examples of untrained singers tackling the classical repertoire I've encountered--"Classical Barbra [Streisand]", Andrea Bocelli, and so on--have been unsuccesful, ranging from the anecdotic to the grotesque.  I've never heard of Florent Pagny, though, and will look him up. Thanks for the tip, Spineur.  :)

At this stage (after more than 40 years of listening to music), I do not feel that canonic, "classical" singing is unnatural at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: torut on September 02, 2017, 08:48:43 AM
I really want to hear songs from Classical ~ Romantic era sung by a good Medieval / Renaissance singer. I don't think the operatic screeching vocal with excessive vibrato is necessary in a setting with piano accompaniment.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on September 02, 2017, 08:57:45 AM
Quote from: torut on September 02, 2017, 08:48:43 AM
I really want to hear songs from Classical ~ Romantic era sung by a good Medieval / Renaissance singer. I don't think the operatic screeching vocal with excessive vibrato is necessary in a setting with piano accompaniment.
Yes, the use of vibrato is a relatively recent development (early 19th century AFAIK), and can be avoided by singers as it is not essential, but still vocal training seems to me inevitable to adequately tackle most of the "classical" repertoire from the late classical period to the present day.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 02, 2017, 09:05:14 AM
Vibrato increased as orchestras and halls grew, and singers needed a larger voice to be heard. Now we have recordings, period instruments, and musicians sometimes even performing in appropriately sized venues, so excessive vibrato should be less prominent than in the early 20th C & 19th C.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on September 02, 2017, 09:07:05 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 02, 2017, 08:48:16 AMAt this stage (after more than 40 years of listening to music), I do not feel that canonic, "classical" singing is unnatural at all.

I agree with that.  To me the style heard on Pop/Rock recordings often sounds strained and nasal, not nearly as enjoyable as a good classically trained singer (though better by far than a bad one).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2017, 09:07:38 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on September 01, 2017, 10:19:34 PM
Why does the classical tradition seem to be opposed (with the exception of some modern composers) to the natural singing voice? Why has it retained this artificial or overtly specified singing style over the millennium?

Classical vocals seem to be an acquired taste that I, thankfully, acquired. Too bad you don't like them, though. I couldn't imagine Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle, for example, being sung in a plain, natural singing voice. That would just be alien to me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on September 02, 2017, 09:43:52 AM
Quote from: torut on September 02, 2017, 08:48:43 AM
I really want to hear songs from Classical ~ Romantic era sung by a good Medieval / Renaissance singer. I don't think the operatic screeching vocal with excessive vibrato is necessary in a setting with piano accompaniment.
Counter-tenors use much less vibrato.  Probably because the head voice cannot produce it easily.  Here is Philippe Jaroussky teaser for his Verlaine Album.  It contains popular and classical melodies, so you can see that one can slide from one to the other without even noticing.

https://www.youtube.com/v/QYvBCHTW8wg&list=RDQYvBCHTW8wg&t=45

Some popular singers have BIG vibratos.  Here is Charles Aznavour singing La Bohème, one of his big hits.

https://www.youtube.com/v/AgtZtyiipCk&list=PLLMd1OWRUE09lOvJmWFf8qr00Eumlke0P

Finally Florent Pagny, a barytone, sings Nessun Dorma from Puccini Turandot scaled lower to his voice

https://www.youtube.com/v/BniXwyy36NY

This isnt the best I have heared by far, but this is quite nice for somebody who is not quite trained for this

What North Star says is true: vibrato changed during the 20 th century.  I got the box "les introuvables du champ français" and noticed that the vibratos were tighter and faster, leaving and entirely different impression of the works.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 02, 2017, 10:01:38 AM
Quote from: Spineur on September 02, 2017, 09:43:52 AM
Counter-tenors use much less vibrato.  Probably because the head voice cannot produce it easily.  Here is Philippe Jaroussky teaser for his Verlaine Album.  It contains popular and classical melodies, so you can see that one can slide from one to the other without even noticing
Also, counter-tenors are usually early music specialists, and a rarer and subtler vibrato is common there among all voice types. Sandrine Piau has also recorded Strauss, Debussy, etc, and Sara Mingardo has recorded Mahler and Respighi, to name a few examples off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on September 02, 2017, 10:09:02 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 02, 2017, 10:01:38 AM
Sandrine Piau has also recorded Strauss, Debussy, etc,
I saw Piau live as Mélisande in Brussels a couple of years ago, and she was superb! Yes, vibrato-less and very pure, but outstanding breath control and use of dynamics, elements that only a classically trained singer can dominate IMHO.

I must confess that Pagny's Nessun dorma, that Spineur was kind enough to post, doesn't make the cut for me...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 04:19:14 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 02, 2017, 09:05:14 AM
Vibrato increased as orchestras and halls grew, and singers needed a larger voice to be heard. Now we have recordings, period instruments, and musicians sometimes even performing in appropriately sized venues, so excessive vibrato should be less prominent than in the early 20th C & 19th C.

I've heard an idea like this, that vibrato helps projection. Is that true?

Stand and deliver romantic singers like Pavarotti tended to use vibrato right through a note, presumably because they needed to project and anyway they were singing contrapuntally simple music, where the vibrato wasn't going to get in anyone's way.  Other singers, some enlightened singers of baroque and renaissance music like Emma Kirkby for example, tended to use vibrato only at the end of notes, producing great clarity and without compromising humanity, And a very few singers of medieval music used no vibrato at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on September 03, 2017, 07:18:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 04:19:14 AM
I've heard an idea like this, that vibrato helps projection. Is that true?

Stand and deliver romantic singers like Pavarotti tended to use vibrato right through a note, presumably because they needed to project and anyway they were singing contrapuntally simple music, where the vibrato wasn't going to get in anyone's way.  Other singers, some enlightened singers of baroque and renaissance music like Emma Kirkby for example, tended to use vibrato only at the end of notes, producing great clarity and without compromising humanity, And a very few singers of medieval music used no vibrato at all.

I don't think vibrato helps projection, but may help the voice stand out in a dense orchestral texture.

I also find classical singing technique unattractive, and probably mostly motivated by the need to be heard over the din of a large orchestra in a large concert hall. I get a great deal more pleasure from classical vocals in small ensembles, such as Bach Cantatas.

One thing that bugs me is opera singers that sing leider or melody with their standard operatic technique, rather than adopting a more intimate style.  This shows how it should be done

[asin]B00003ZKR9[/asin]
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 03, 2017, 07:50:01 AM
Quote from: Spineur on September 02, 2017, 09:43:52 AM

Finally Florent Pagny, a barytone, sings Nessun Dorma from Puccini Turandot scaled lower to his voice


I didn't like it at all, not for being in a lower key but Pagny sounded very stilted. There was practically no warmth or development of single tones. He could have played the notes on the piano with the same results.

Also I was not a fan of West Side Story done by opera singers when it was rerecorded by Bernstein.

ZB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 03, 2017, 08:03:56 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 02, 2017, 12:36:02 AM
I would be interested in opinions from trained singers.
But I think for performances in comparably large churches, theaters etc. something like the classically "supported" style of singing had to be developed, otherwise voices would not carry sufficiently. Another demand is reasonable precise and stable intonation for comparably complex polyphony in Western music since the high/late MA. All these demands make it plausible that the singing style has to differ from a mother softly singing a lullaby or a bunch of drunks raucously bellowing a song around a campfire. But the two latter are "natural situations", so we tend to find the classical style "unnatural". Another reason is that since the arrival of the microphone, a singer can "naturally" sing softly with an untrained voice and most people unter 70 probably grew up getting used mostly to popular singers crooning into a microphone (as well as their usually untrained mothers or other children in school singing) so they find the classical style unnatural.

This may seem shocking but I do not like the sound of many opera singers, at least not according to the current concept of what opera singing should be. It's true that some voices are more suited for the stage than others. Think of Leontyne Price, Leyla Gencer, Luciano Pavarotti - their voices are naturally big. But I do believe the means of production are essentially the same for all. What happens with lighter voices, they are cranked up to the maximum volume and even more to sing in big halls or in heavy roles. But as a teacher of mine said, it is like turning up the volume dial of a radio, after a certain point, it becomes noise.

I believe that singing with the natural vibrato of a voice (and there are optimal calibrations per second for each type) is the best policy. When that happens, it is like Zen, the voice floats on air. This is the most pleasing and satisfying sound one can make, feel or listen to. Singing white tones as for Medieval or Renaissance music is a technique of sorts but who really said that people actually sang that way back then? Who heard it anyway? Cornelius Reid, a writer on singing, doesn't believe so.

I really despise Three Tenors or Il Volo for the above reason, forcing the voice past a certain pleasant volume but also because their vibrational profiles clash. Acoustics is so important to consider in any musical venture. Composers really need to consider this aspect. Some have it instinctually, others should really sit down and learn what sounds good with what.

ZB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on September 03, 2017, 08:12:31 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on September 01, 2017, 10:13:41 PM
So many sopranos (for example) sound almost like wales to me

That'll be an eisteddfod. 😉
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on September 03, 2017, 08:23:15 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on September 03, 2017, 08:03:56 AM
This may seem shocking but I do not like the sound of many opera singers, at least not according to the current concept of what opera singing should be. It's true that some voices are more suited for the stage than others. Think of Leontyne Price, Leyla Gencer, Luciano Pavarotti - their voices are naturally big. But I do believe the means of production are essentially the same for all. What happens with lighter voices, they are cranked up to the maximum volume and even more to sing in big halls or in heavy roles. But as a teacher of mine said, it is like turning up the volume dial of a radio, after a certain point, it becomes noise.

I believe that singing with the natural vibrato of a voice (and there are optimal calibrations per second for each type) is the best policy. When that happens, it is like Zen, the voice floats on air. This is the most pleasing and satisfying sound one can make, feel or listen to. Singing white tones as for Medieval or Renaissance music is a technique of sorts but who really said that people actually sang that way back then? Who heard it anyway? Cornelius Reid, a writer on singing, doesn't believe so.

I really despise Three Tenors or Il Volo for the above reason, forcing the voice past a certain pleasant volume but also because their vibrational profiles clash. Acoustics is so important to consider in any musical venture. Composers really need to consider this aspect. Some have it instinctually, others should really sit down and learn what sounds good with what.

ZB

I agree with you.

Be afraid. Be very afraid. ☺️
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on September 01, 2017, 07:44:58 PM
I've said in quite a few threads already but classical vocal music (except from choral stuff, which is usually way denser) tends to be on my bad side. I don't find the typical "classically trained" (aka castrated) soprano, tenor, alto, bass etc to be very compelling, I tend to feel it ruins great songs/lieder.

There are exceptions (quite a few) but this is my stance.  :-X

What do you think of Peter Pears singing Dowland's In Darkness Let me Dwell, at 19'10'' here?

https://www.youtube.com/v/N5-g4oVrTz4

Here's an unpopular opinion which I share: Peter Pears, the bleating goat, was a great great singer -- because he had a magical way with words.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 11:06:18 AM
And here's another unpopular voice in the same composer, Alfred Deller, but for the same reasons as Pears I think he's a great singer. One of the comments on youtube says (in french) " sa lecture fusionelle du texte" -- and fusionelle is right.

I guess my view is Prima le parole!

https://www.youtube.com/v/r_aR3cOUYm8

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on September 03, 2017, 12:25:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 11:06:18 AM
And here's another unpopular voice in the same composer, Alfred Deller, but for the same reasons as Pears I think he's a great singer. One of the comments on youtube says (in french) " sa lecture fusionelle du texte" -- and fusionelle is right.

I guess my view is Prima le parole!

https://www.youtube.com/v/r_aR3cOUYm8

Pears was a brilliant and expressive evangelist for Klemperer and Münchinger in the SMP. I am more ambivalent concerning Deller, even if his old recording of Purcell's Music for a while is outstanding and his contribution to Bach's Wiederstehe doch der Sünde was one of the first Bach recordings I ever heard and instrumental to hook me on Bach (along with Münchinger's Brandenburgs and Walchas WTC).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on September 03, 2017, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: Spineur on September 02, 2017, 12:53:43 AM
There is no such thing as trained classical singers vs popular ones: one can go from one to the other.  Florent Pagny a french pop singer with a beautiful and powerful voice has done opera arias.  Inversely so many opera singers have done popular music that I want to say please no more.  There are specifics to classical singing, but the one thing you absolutely need is a powerful voice because you need to fill a big opera hall or a church (Jo post).  Amplified voices in the realm of classical music gives poor to awful results.
So Celine Dion, Florent Pagny have done classical because they have the vocal means to do so.  A thin voice a la Justin Bieber would not make it.

In theory one can go from one to the other, in practice a few do but I think the majority don't. And if it is not "successful" (such as your opera singers doing pop) one might see why swapping is difficult or not recommended.

I imagine some popular singers have had training enough to attempt classical, but perhaps these are more likely to be "pop performers" rather than something else. So maybe Celine Dion can, but Bob Dylan? Donald Fagen? James Hetfield? Van Morrison? Billy Gibbons? I suspect not. Perhaps that is why the usual epithet in popular music is "vocalist" rather than "singer." At least it is in the popular music that I have some knowledge of, which is basically rock.

I think fundamentally they are attempting two different things. In classical music, the singer is just another "instrument" utilised by a composer. In popular (certainly rock) the vocalist's role is as an individual (in style and lyrics) such that a vocalist leaving a band is a major change and issue. Easy to think of examples of this: Roger Waters leaving Pink Floyd, Dave Lee Roth leaving Van Halen, Ozzy Osbourne leaving Black Sabbath etc etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 03, 2017, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: nodogen on September 03, 2017, 02:00:39 PM
Perhaps that is why the usual epithet in popular music is "vocalist" rather than "singer." At least it is in the popular music that I have some knowledge of, which is basically rock.

In my experience the credit you're looking for is "vocals". Which is probably preferred to something like "singings".

And this credit is used by... wait for it... "singer-songwriters".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 09:25:08 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 03, 2017, 12:25:31 PM
Pears was a brilliant and expressive evangelist for Klemperer and Münchinger in the SMP. I am more ambivalent concerning Deller, even if his old recording of Purcell's Music for a while is outstanding and his contribution to Bach's Wiederstehe doch der Sünde was one of the first Bach recordings I ever heard and instrumental to hook me on Bach (along with Münchinger's Brandenburgs and Walchas WTC).

I think Alfred Deller went through a period quite early in his career when he was making some some outstanding music, but the later recordings are for me not as satisfying. Actually similarly with Pears.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 03, 2017, 11:08:31 PM
Quote from: nodogen on September 03, 2017, 08:23:15 AM
I agree with you.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. ☺️

I think that verismo in opera 100 years ago had much to do with the shift of attention from bel canto to characterizations and acting. Marko Rothmuller gives some reasons why the tradition of beautiful singing was gradually downgraded in favor of other requirements for a singer during the span of his career:

http://www.bruceduffie.com/rothmuller.html

BD:    You've been involved with young singers for a long time.  Are the young singers today prepared in the same way, or differently than they were thirty, forty, fifty years ago?

MR:    Not only here, but in general, the whole attitude is a different one, partly because the requirements are different.  What we call bel canto repertory, when that is done, it is not done the same way as before.  Even at my generation, we used to try to sing it as beautifully as possible, and many of the parts where not so important as acting parts.  I'm not talking of Rigoletto or Scarpia, but the beauty and the technical evenness was very important, and everything else was considered inferior.   At least to my knowledge, only a few artists are of that kind today.

BD:    Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

MR:    Oh, it's very bad for two reasons.  It's bad whenever a work is performed which was written for bel canto — with beautiful singing — and also that the contemporary singers often have to sing parts which are not written for beautiful singing, and don't require the technique which was worked especially in Italy for about four to six hundred years.  There are vocal requirements which are a different kind, therefore the voices are often ruined too soon.

BD:    At what point in compositional time did we lose the idea of beautiful singing?

MR:    I would say this was mainly after the Second World War.  Even with the Richard Strauss works, and Hindemith, and Wozzeck, one was still expected, wherever possible, to sing a beautiful vocal line, a musical line, and have a wonderful phrasing, and so on.  Now this is not so, even when I listen to the top singers.  I know the whole repertoire, and not only my parts.  You can notice how often these people bring it, and if you bring it more often than good phrasing would require, it's inferior in this regard.


I actually studied with him for a year when he was on sabbatical. In his 70's, he still had a very good tone and excellent technique.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on September 03, 2017, 11:33:30 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on September 03, 2017, 02:37:13 PM
In my experience the credit you're looking for is "vocals". Which is probably preferred to something like "singings".

And this credit is used by... wait for it... "singer-songwriters".

My suggestion of the fact that "vocalist" is used is that "singing" is not exactly what they do in all cases (probably by their own admission).

As to the term "singer-songwriter" - often the vocalist may not even be involved in the songwriting, so that epithet would simply be incorrect.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on September 03, 2017, 08:03:56 AM

Singing white tones as for Medieval or Renaissance music is a technique of sorts but who really said that people actually sang that way back then? Who heard it anyway? Cornelius Reid, a writer on singing, doesn't believe so.



When you've got a singer who uses generalised vibrato through the tone, the tones are always wobbling. If it's generalised it's always out of tune! I guess that's not a great problem where you've got one singer possibly supported by instruments. But if you've got a few people singing polyphonic music together, and they're all making wobbly tones and so all singing off the note at the same time  -- well you can imagine the confusion. Better to limit vibrato to just a small part of the note, or to sing white tones generally and just use tremolo for expressive reasons, like an ornament.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 04, 2017, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: nodogen on September 03, 2017, 11:33:30 PM
My suggestion of the fact that "vocalist" is used is that "singing" is not exactly what they do in all cases (probably by their own admission).

As to the term "singer-songwriter" - often the vocalist may not even be involved in the songwriting, so that epithet would simply be incorrect.

Sigh. I didn't say ONLY used by. Way to miss the point, which is that it's not true that pop music doesn't talk about singers.

And the other point was that I don't agree that vocalist is the common term. Vocals is more common than vocalist. And vocals is frequently paired with singer.  But that sailed right past you as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on September 04, 2017, 01:56:22 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on September 04, 2017, 01:16:36 AM
Sigh. I didn't say ONLY used by. Way to miss the point, which is that it's not true that pop music doesn't talk about singers.

And the other point was that I don't agree that vocalist is the common term. Vocals is more common than vocalist. And vocals is frequently paired with singer.  But that sailed right past you as well.

Sigh. Nothing sailed past me. I'm simply disagreeing, based on listening to rock music and buying albums for over 40 years. Are you always this arsey?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 04, 2017, 02:03:24 AM
We have plenty of descriptions but obviously no sound recordings, so all bets are up on how singers sounded before the late 19th century.
The "white" almost vibratoless singing for early music could be a pure late 20th century artifact (so that not to sound like "opera" (i.e. late 19th century opera sung in mid 20th century style by all means). But there are some Early music groups that sound quite different (e.g. Peres) although of course they don't sound like Wagner or verismo big voice opera singers either.

I don't know about the technical details but I have been told be people who studied both classical and jazz/musical singing that some techniques are clearly different as far as the tone production goes.
I tend to agree with what someone said above that many popular singers disappoint if they try classical pieces and often the reason seems deficient technique. Joan Baez' uncontrolled vibrato might be impressive in adding emotion to some passages in folk ballads (I am very fond of most of what she did before ca. 1970) but the Bachiana Brasileira on one album is an almost complete failure for me, because she does not sound like in control and overall it sounds bad. I also got rid of one "Classical Barbra" (Streisand) very quickly. There are probably lots of cases for opera singers sounding overblown and ill at ease in popular music and some successful cases as well.
In any case "natural" tends to become a meaningless attribute because most professional singing regardless of genre requires studying such techniques and differs from untrained singing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 04, 2017, 02:34:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 11:37:06 PM
When you've got a singer who uses generalised vibrato through the tone, the tones are always wobbling. If it's generalised it's always out of tune! I guess that's not a great problem where you've got one singer possibly supported by instruments. But if you've got a few people singing polyphonic music together, and they're all making wobbly tones and so all singing off the note at the same time  -- well you can imagine the confusion. Better to limit vibrato to just a small part of the note, or to sing white tones generally and just use tremolo for expressive reasons, like an ornament.

A free, unobstructed singing tone has vibrato like that of a good string player. Done properly, the oscillations are so small that no one would really detect them. The unpleasant variety is when the pitch is too wide and the oscillations are too slow, called a "wobble". This can happen with unsupported, heavy and/or low voices. The other extreme when the pulses are too fast, it is called a "tremolo", like buzzing mosquitoes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 04, 2017, 02:48:28 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 04, 2017, 02:03:24 AM

I don't know about the technical details but I have been told be people who studied both classical and jazz/musical singing that some techniques are clearly different as far as the tone production goes.
I tend to agree with what someone said above that many popular singers disappoint if they try classical pieces and often the reason seems deficient technique. Joan Baez' uncontrolled vibrato might be impressive in adding emotion to some passages in folk ballads (I am very fond of most of what she did before ca. 1970) but the Bachiana Brasileira on one album is an almost complete failure for me, because she does not sound like in control and overall it sounds bad. I also got rid of one "Classical Barbra" (Streisand) very quickly. There are probably lots of cases for opera singers sounding overblown and ill at ease in popular music and some successful cases as well.
In any case "natural" tends to become a meaningless attribute because most professional singing regardless of genre requires studying such techniques and differs from untrained singing.

Joan Baez is a good example because indeed, she did not cross over into Bachianas very easily and Classical Barbra may as well be popera. When asked about the difference between popular singing and classical, because it does come up in the studio, I say that popular singing is closer to speech. In classical singing a lot of adjustments are made so that speech patterns do not interfere with a legato line.

One of the techniques is darkening the vowels on high note and brightening them on lower ones, homogenizing the vowels but interfering with their communication value. Popular music for the most part is in the range of speech and communicating text is more important than making beautiful tones. Broadway "belting" is something else but done a lot in pop music, that is, bringing up the "chest voice" into the middle range in order to darken the sound but also keeping a chesty sort of quality, not breaking the line for expressive purposes. In classical singing, going into the chest voice is a change of color crossing the lower passaggio, but used expertly as Maria Callas did, adds another dimension to a performance. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spineur on September 04, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
There are many distinctions that should be made in this discussion.  The arias operas of the 18th century demand a much slighter vibrato, more discretion and distinction in the singing.  Here an example from Grétry  'L'amant Jaloux' the aria "Tandis que tout sommeille"
First a performance exactly in the 18 th century style.  All is done with distinctinction and
https://www.youtube.com/v/taqlNE2cvkQ
An now Roberto Alagna who transform this tender lullaby in a heroic 19 century aria
https://www.youtube.com/v/5Z09rdD2J0I
Pretty bad, I would say.

Even in the 19th century operatic repertoire, there are all sort of roles.  The heroic ones (Massenet, Le Cid), the macho ones (Othello), the wimpy boys (Cherubin, Rossini).  To each role, its voice.  Mario del Monaco who had a legendary powerful voice was great in Othello, but lacked nuance in many other roles.  Another issue, even more important to me is the quality of the diction.  A singer with a bad diction had no future in the first part of the 20th century.  Today because so many english people do no know any foreign languages, there is a tolerance toward totally unrecognizable mumbled words.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on September 04, 2017, 02:56:45 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 09:25:08 PM
I think Alfred Deller went through a period quite early in his career when he was making some some outstanding music, but the later recordings are for me not as satisfying. Actually similarly with Pears.

Completely agreed as to Deller. But in his later days Pears was still a good singing actor, even if his voice was declining.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 04, 2017, 03:47:14 AM
Quote from: Spineur on September 04, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
There are many distinctions that should be made in this discussion.  The arias operas of the 18th century demand a much slighter vibrato, more discretion and distinction in the singing.  Here an example from Grétry  'L'amant Jaloux' the aria "Tandis que tout sommeille"

Well, if that is not a vibrato of a held note in the first version at 1:15 and 2:29, I don't know what is. I think the singer just let the tone go, but probably could have controlled it better. Alagna brings the Heldentenor into this aria, but of course, completely inappropriate. He does a funny falsetto on the last G, "charmante", which after all, is not that high for a tenor. Here the note at 2:28 is vibrating completely undisciplined.

Quote from: Spineur on September 04, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
Even in the 19th century operatic repertoire, there are all sort of roles.  The heroic ones (Massenet, Le Cid), the macho ones (Othello), the wimpy boys (Cherubin, Rossini).  To each role, its voice.  Mario del Monaco who had a legendary powerful voice was great in Othello, but lacked nuance in many other roles.

Oh, absolutely! There is a lengthy article about singing in Grove's Dictionary treating of this subject which has largely been forgotten. Character types and the voices that fit them were very important in 18th century opera indeed.

Quote from: Spineur on September 04, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
Another issue, even more important to me is the quality of the diction.  A singer with a bad diction had no future in the first part of the 20th century.  Today because so many english people do no know any foreign languages, there is a tolerance toward totally unrecognizable mumbled words.

You can read what Marko Rothmuller had to say about singing in the first half of the 20th century. They were still mixing up languages even after WWII.

http://www.bruceduffie.com/rothmuller.html

BD:    Do you feel that opera works well in translation?

MR:    Absolutely, if the translation is good.  It is always important that the audience understands it, and above all that the singer understands it.  Immediately after the War, we had Aïda in Vienna in Italian.  That was the only opera they did in the original.  Since about 1960 they do most operas in the original, but before that everything was done in the language of the country.  So first of all, the Radames had such bad pronunciation that it was impossible, and of course he didn't understand one word he was singing.  He could emphasize the wrong word very easily. 

On the other hand, I had the experience when I sang it in one language and a guest sang it in another, that can be also very awkward.  I remember a funny instance in Butterfly.  There was a guest, Dusolina Giannini, and she sang in Italian.  So at one point I asked what day is today, and she asked if I had an orange because the translation didn't go at the same time.  [Both laugh] 

In London we had Tosca in English.  At that time, they did everything in English.  Only during the June Festival Wagner was done in German, but now they do everything in the original.  We had once a guest Tosca who sang in Italian, so I sang all our scenes in Italian because Scarpia is very much with Tosca.  Whenever we were together I sang with her in Italian so as not to say something and then have her answer something different.  I thought it was better that way.


As for diction, I actually think it has gotten better and singers do learn many languages these days, even native English speakers. I do detect, however when listening to recordings of Mary Garden, Debussy's Melisande, a strong English or even Scottish accent.  It was pointed out even back then.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 04, 2017, 04:54:49 AM
Quote from: nodogen on September 04, 2017, 01:56:22 AM
Sigh. Nothing sailed past me. I'm simply disagreeing, based on listening to rock music and buying albums for over 40 years. Are you always this arsey?

1. You're disagreeing that the term singer-songwriter is used rather than vocalist songwriter??

2. Yes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: nodogen on September 04, 2017, 05:12:02 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on September 04, 2017, 04:54:49 AM
2. Yes.

I did wonder why your responses were immediately sarcastic in tone and about such an innocuous topic. Feel free to have the last word.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 04, 2017, 05:16:15 AM
The last word will be: interesting how you evade the response that is difficult to refute.

The fact is, singers ARE called singers in the pop world. They are also called vocalists, and I never said otherwise, but I simply reacted to the way that it felt you were trying to lay down some kind of rule that they weren't called singers. The truth is they frequently are. What they produce is frequently called "vocals".

It is in fact relatively rare to see credits on a song or album that refer to a "vocalist" because that's simply not how credits are usually written. It normally says "guitar" or "guitars", not "guitarist". It normally says "keyboards" not "keyboard player". And hence it normally says "vocals".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 06, 2017, 06:49:53 AM
Quote from: Spineur on September 04, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
Another issue, even more important to me is the quality of the diction.  A singer with a bad diction had no future in the first part of the 20th century.  Today [...] there is a tolerance toward totally unrecognizable mumbled words.

A big +1 on this.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on September 06, 2017, 01:35:28 PM
Cowbellist? Cow? Pastoral tintinnabulator? Ruminant?...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 07, 2017, 03:44:08 AM
Carillonneur des vaches
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 14, 2017, 01:31:28 AM
Quote from: Spineur on September 04, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
There are many distinctions that should be made in this discussion.  The arias operas of the 18th century demand a much slighter vibrato, more discretion and distinction in the singing.  Here an example from Grétry  'L'amant Jaloux' the aria "Tandis que tout sommeille"
First a performance exactly in the 18 th century style.  All is done with distinctinction and
https://www.youtube.com/v/taqlNE2cvkQ
An now Roberto Alagna who transform this tender lullaby in a heroic 19 century aria
https://www.youtube.com/v/5Z09rdD2J0I
Pretty bad, I would say.

Pretty bad is an understatement. It's awful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on October 01, 2017, 12:39:19 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on September 27, 2017, 06:00:46 PM
Contrary to past behavior (i.e listing 50 composers that I've listened to obsessively  :laugh: ), I wouldn't be able to name even 1 composer that is a favorite or even a current "like" at the moment. I think it's major burn out.

Non-classical seems to be doing me better but I've gone down the deep end  :(

If burnout is still a problem you might try this:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=201526

Regards,

LKB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on October 01, 2017, 10:03:44 AM
Quote from: LKB on October 01, 2017, 12:39:19 AM
If burnout is still a problem you might try this:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=201526

Regards,

LKB

Hey, great stuff, the PCA version of Yonder Comes a Courteous Knight is  best single recording I know of!  Do you know it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on October 01, 2017, 10:28:45 AM
Quote from: Ken B on October 01, 2017, 10:03:44 AM
Hey, great stuff, the PCA version of Yonder Comes a Courteous Knight is  best single recording I know of!  Do you know it?

I probably have heard it, though it would have been decades ago when l was working at Tower, buying Telefunken and various flavors of Harmonia Mundi etc. with the old employee discount...

I'd like to see the King's Singers come out with a Ravenscroft issue, it really should be right down their alley.

Hopefully,

LKB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: yekov on October 05, 2017, 10:03:06 PM
I hate Dvorak's 9th symphony
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2017, 01:23:29 AM
Quote from: yekov on October 05, 2017, 10:03:06 PM
I hate Dvorak's 9th symphony

Hate leads to suffering. Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 08, 2017, 08:49:30 PM
Quote from: yekov on October 05, 2017, 10:03:06 PM
I hate Dvorak's 9th symphony
Lol oh well :) I'm still trying to find some classical music I actually hate
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2017, 09:26:32 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 08, 2017, 08:49:30 PM
Lol oh well :) I'm still trying to find some classical music I actually hate

Hate is such a strong word. Dislike is certainly preferred (by me at least). :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 09, 2017, 06:40:09 AM
Quote from: jessop on October 08, 2017, 08:49:30 PM
Lol oh well :) I'm still trying to find some classical music I actually hate
for me, the only things I know I hate are "Für Elise" and Orff's Carmina Burana. Oh, and anything by Ludovico Einaudi.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on October 09, 2017, 07:21:34 AM
I can't really think of anything I "hate" but it is not hard to bring to mind things that bore me. Hard to think of something I would look forward to less than hearing Tchaikovsky's First Piano Concerto again.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 09, 2017, 07:28:57 AM
I don't like most of La Traviata. There, I said it. I may have mentioned it before. I just never found it musically very attracting, apart from prelude, Libiam' and Sempre libera arias, and the chorus in act 3. I am still going to watch it live when it comes to Finnish National Opera, in December, if I can afford it.

And don't think I don't like Verdi in general. His operas are the crown jewels of the Italian opera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on October 09, 2017, 10:02:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2017, 06:40:09 AM
for me, the only things I know I hate are "Für Elise" and Orff's Carmina Burana. Oh, and anything by Ludovico Einaudi.

For me, it's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" when performed as a stand-alone instrumental piece.

I turned Einaudi off before I got to hate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Turbot nouveaux on October 09, 2017, 10:33:13 AM
Er... Not sure if I should disclose this, but I spent an evening listening to Ludovico Einaudi just to see what all the fuss was about...and quite liked it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 10:56:12 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 09, 2017, 07:21:34 AM
Hard to think of something I would look forward to less than hearing Tchaikovsky's First Piano Concerto again.

Hah! I could listen to it all day long!

It was one of the first "classical music" works I've ever heard, and it got me hooked, transfixed and spellbound at first hearing, so I'm probably biased, but --- each and every time I listen to it I get goosebumps --- my all-time favorite version is Lev Oborin / Alexander Gauk, USSR State and Radio Symphony Orchestra,  rec. 1948: (much) less than ideal sound, but white-hot performance, Romantic / romantic / Russian to the boot. It's on YT, I urge you and everybody else to give it a try.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
Quote from: Pat B on October 09, 2017, 10:02:14 AM
For me, it's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" when performed as a stand-alone instrumental piece.

Have you heard it played by Lipatti in his very last recital?

Context is everything.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:36:29 AM
TD:

Beethoven is singlehandedly culpable for introducing, promoting and championing the false and pernicious notions that (1) great music is / should be all about one's own idiosyncrasies and (2) aggressiveness, loudness and unruliness equal profundity. He singlehandely altered the course of Western music along these lines ---  for worse.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 09, 2017, 11:44:01 AM
Very little of Beethoven's music is about "his own idiosyncrasies", probably less than with John Dowland or Philipp Emanuel Bach. His music is as "objectivist" as JS Bach's or Mozart's when compared to e.g. Schumann's or Mahler's.



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2017, 11:51:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:36:29 AM
TD:

Beethoven is singlehandedly culpable for introducing, promoting and championing the false and pernicious notions that (1) great music is / should be all about one's own idiosyncrasies and (2) aggressiveness, loudness and unruliness equal profundity. He singlehandely altered the course of Western music along these lines ---  for worse.

Wrong thread. This belongs in the Silly Opinions thread. If there is no such a thread, you should start it since most of your posts would qualify  :D ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:53:34 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 09, 2017, 11:44:01 AM
Very little of Beethoven's music is about "his own idiosyncrasies", probably less than with John Dowland or Philipp Emanuel Bach.

Excuse me? From quite early on Beethoven's music is all about himself and his own feelings and reactions.

Quote
His music is as "objectivist" as JS Bach's or Mozart's when compared to e.g. Schumann's or Mahler's.

I beg to differ. Beethoven is the first truly "subjectivist" composer. Schumann has very little, if any, of Beethoven's loudness, aggressiveness and unruliness, while Mahler never dwells on them for their own sake but sublimates them into a higher, more humane and human level.

JS Bach and Mozart are galaxies apart from Beethoven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2017, 11:51:40 AM
Wrong thread. This belongs in the Silly Opinions thread. If there is no such a thread, you should start it since most of your posts would qualify  :D ;)

Feel free to refute them.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on October 09, 2017, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:53:34 AM
...From quite early on Beethoven's music is all about himself and his own feelings and reactions.

... Beethoven is the first truly "subjectivist" composer. Schumann has very little, if any, of Beethoven's loudness, aggressiveness and unruliness, while Mahler never dwells on them for their own sake but sublimates them into a higher, more humane and human level.

JS Bach and Mozart are galaxies apart from Beethoven.
Lock him up!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 12:00:14 PM
Okay, I'll reformulate:

Beethoven is the greatest composer that Western music has ever known and anyone who does not bow to his altar is a dimwit and a heretic worth of being burned at the stake.

Ooops, wrong thread --- ain't it?  ;D >:D :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2017, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
Feel free to refute them.  ;D

Beethoven needs no help from me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on October 09, 2017, 12:04:49 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 12:00:14 PM
Okay, I'll reformulate:

Beethoven is the greatest composer that Western music has ever known and anyone who does not bow to his altar is a dimwit and a heretic worth of being burned at the stake.


Wrong again  ::)...That's Wagner. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 09, 2017, 12:18:25 PM
Please give ONE example of a prominent and unruly work by Beethoven that is "all about himself" and show how one could tell that it is "all about himself". Maybe the first major obviously loud and unruly work by Beethoven is the "Eroica" which is supposedly about Napoleon Bonaparte. Almost all of the earlier works by Beethoven are mainly about trying to compose as well as Mozart did (maybe a little more obviously virtuosic and updated to 1800, not 1780s), not about anything personal.

Whereas Schumann literally puts names of his friends and love interests into his pieces and writes pseudo-biographic romantic stuff *within his scores". Like "Eusebius added this with his eyes full of tears" or similar drivel. Of course, this is mainly a kind of "game", assuming the persona of a lovesick romantic poet on the brink of madness.
Like Beethoven's game is (often) individual heroism against impossible odds (but generalized, not about any particular human, least of all Beethoven). Like Mozart's game is showing humans with  conflicting erotic attractions in their comical confusion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 09, 2017, 12:24:28 PM
Quote from: ritter on October 09, 2017, 12:04:49 PM
Wrong again  ::)...That's Wagner. ;)
I like this opinion very much. ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 09, 2017, 12:52:43 PM
Florestan on Beethoven might be the most unpopular opinion in this thread...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on October 09, 2017, 12:53:55 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
Have you heard it played by Lipatti in his very last recital?

Context is everything.

Yes.

The musical context (and scoring) of the full BWV 147 help. The performance context of the performer will soon die of cancer does not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Turbot nouveaux on October 09, 2017, 01:08:31 PM
Well, I'm glad my post on Einaudi seems to have got in under the radar, anyway...  ;D
Title: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 09, 2017, 01:59:07 PM
It must be too unpopular to even begin a discussion! Congratulations. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on October 09, 2017, 02:02:20 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:36:29 AM
TD:

Beethoven is singlehandedly culpable for introducing, promoting and championing the false and pernicious notions that (1) great music is / should be all about one's own idiosyncrasies and (2) aggressiveness, loudness and unruliness equal profundity. He singlehandely altered the course of Western music along these lines ---  for worse.

(https://christianrusso.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/cain-facepalm.jpg?w=584)

Even ancient statues are facepalming this ridiculous assertion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on October 09, 2017, 02:16:09 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
Have you heard it played by Lipatti in his very last recital?

Context is everything.

Were you in Besançon that day in 1950? The performance of Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring was not recorded at the recital (he had left the stage and returned for the encore, as the story is told). If you've come across it on Youtube it was a studio recording he made some time before.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 09:12:49 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2017, 12:52:43 PM
Florestan on Beethoven might be the most unpopular opinion in this thread...

You seem to be the only one that got the whole thing right.  :-*

EDIT: My source of inspiration was this:

How Beethoven Ruined Classical Music (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3617581/How-Beethoven-ruined-classical-music.html)

There are many "gems" therein, but the prize goes to the assertion that Bach was committed to Enlightenment values.  ???

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 09:16:24 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 09, 2017, 02:16:09 PM
The performance of Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring was not recorded at the recital (he had left the stage and returned for the encore, as the story is told).

Yes, you're right. I had a brain fart.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Christo on October 09, 2017, 10:33:09 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2017, 12:52:43 PMFlorestan on Beethoven might be the most unpopular opinion in this thread...
No. At least he's right about Richard Strauss.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 10, 2017, 12:16:09 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2017, 11:36:29 AM
TD:

Beethoven is singlehandedly culpable for introducing, promoting and championing the false and pernicious notions that (1) great music is / should be all about one's own idiosyncrasies and (2) aggressiveness, loudness and unruliness equal profundity. He singlehandely altered the course of Western music along these lines ---  for worse.


I wouldn't blame Beethoven for that; it's his generation of critics and literary people who promoted him and these romantic ideas. Beethoven's own artistic philosophy was mostly influenced by thinkers of an earlier generation (Schiller, Goethe etc). His music is not different from e.g. Scarlatti in its idiosyncrasy and loudness it's just that the critical landscape in post-napoleonic Europe was very different. If you've gotta blame someone, blame Bonaparte >.>
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 12:23:08 AM
Quote from: amw on October 10, 2017, 12:16:09 AM
I wouldn't blame Beethoven for that; it's his generation of critics and literary people who promoted him and these romantic ideas. Beethoven's own artistic philosophy was mostly influenced by thinkers of an earlier generation (Schiller, Goethe etc). His music is not different from e.g. Scarlatti in its idiosyncrasy and loudness it's just that the critical landscape in post-napoleonic Europe was very different. If you've gotta blame someone, blame Bonaparte >.>

You do have a point. However, see reply #2541.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 10, 2017, 12:52:25 AM
I missed that first time around ::) Telegraph articles on classical music are always good for a laugh though
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 10, 2017, 01:34:53 AM
People usually blame Rousseau...

The "Sturm-and-Drang" and other romantic tendencies in German literature precede the Revolution by about a decade and Bonaparte (*1769) was only child at this time. Goethe's Werther was published in 1774, so the appropriate music for Werther's romantic dilemmas and suicidal tendencies would be Bach sons and Haydn, Schiller's "Die Räuber" (the one the early Verdi piece is based on) in 1781.
It gets all  more complicated because both Goethe and Schiller did a turn (not quite U, but maybe 120-150°) away from romanticism (and they were also abhorred by the terreur and gave up the revolutionary tendencies in favor of a more moderate enligthenment) and their humanist classicism ("Weimar") was the main foil for the first generation of German romantics in a narrower sense.

So one has several "dialectic" steps during Beethoven's lifetime:
- mid-18th-century rationalist enlightenment
-> first subjectivist/romantic reaction with pieces like the ones just mentioned
-> late 18th/early 19th century "classicism" (mainly Schiller and Goethe, Herder in German literature)
-> early 19th century romanticism or any other dialectical reaction against Goethe-style classicism, e.g Kleist) etc.

Many strains are mixed together here. And people always take what they need from predecessors or contemporaries.
(While Goethe's Faust was more an abstract drama of ideas for many Germans, Berlioz's seems to have focussed on the romantic, even "gothic" side, similarly with the political/historical Schiller plays when they were turned into operas.)

And all this cannot be simply mapped onto music, of course.

Already in that founding document of musical romanticism, Hoffmann's essay on Beethoven (mainly the 5th symphony) a very important point is how Beethoven explores the frontiers of *music*, rather independent of whatever it could "mean" or express. 20th century critics like Tovey and Riezler, Charles Rosen have expanded this very clearly. How Beethoven is above all pushing *music as such* forward, not imposing personal or literary allusions. (And in fact, there is very little factual basis for such allusions although they have been there from the beginning.
And I think that this is almost exactly the same at the beginning of the 20th century. Sure, there are some pieces of expressionist music matching decadent and dark fin de siècle literature ("Erwartung"). But overall the development towards more dissonant music is an exploration of inherent musical possibilities.

So the revolution Beethoven could stand for is not that music that used to serve the church or the nobility was now made to serve the personal pathologies of romantic composers, but rather that music was not to serve anything else at all but rule according to its own peculiar dynamics. (Of course, (late) Bach and many other composers before Beethoven already did this but rarely so stubbornly as Beethoven)

(That telegraph essay by Dylan Evans, "senior lecturer in intelligent autonomous systems", seems certainly more autonomous than intelligent...)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 10, 2017, 06:24:34 AM
The thing about Beethoven is, he wrote quite a lot of pieces that are not terribly loud and unruly.

But they're not the famous ones. The ones that everyone nowadays goes bananas over are the "loud" and "unruly"... I think the point is that they're the incredibly dynamic ones, because Beethoven was able to create a force and momentum and dynamism in his music that was pretty well unprecedented.

And so people don't tend to listen to genial, good-humoured Beethoven. Or if they do they tend not to be amazed by it. And so the name Beethoven has become synonymous with the music that is at one end of his emotional spectrum.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 10, 2017, 07:01:25 AM
Among the most famous Beethoven the "heaven storming" pieces dominate. But the Pastoral symphony, the violin concerto, the 4th piano concerto. the "Spring sonata" and a bunch of others are also very well known and they are mostly lyrical.
Actually, almost everything by Beethoven is fairly well known ;) so people play and listen also to the humorous or lyrical works (there are actually more of them than "heroic" ones).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 10, 2017, 06:24:34 AM
The thing about Beethoven is, he wrote quite a lot of pieces that are not terribly loud and unruly.

But they're not the famous ones. The ones that everyone nowadays goes bananas over are the "loud" and "unruly"... I think the point is that they're the incredibly dynamic ones, because Beethoven was able to create a force and momentum and dynamism in his music that was pretty well unprecedented.

And so people don't tend to listen to genial, good-humoured Beethoven. Or if they do they tend not to be amazed by it. And so the name Beethoven has become synonymous with the music that is at one end of his emotional spectrum.

Good points.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 10, 2017, 07:01:25 AM
Actually, almost everything by Beethoven is fairly well known ;).

Not quite. Probably his best kept secret are the Bagatelles for piano, and they are indeed genial and good-humoured --- a very different Beethoven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on October 10, 2017, 10:46:25 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 10:03:21 AM
Not quite. Probably his best kept secret are the Bagatelles for piano, and they are indeed genial and good-humoured --- a very different Beethoven.

I think op 126/2 is an example of loud dynamic forceful Beethoven.

By the way have you real Milan Kundera on Kitsch, and some of the comments he makes specifically about kitsch in Beethoven?  I think you may find what he says interesting, I know I did.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 11:16:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 10, 2017, 10:46:25 AM
By the way have you real Milan Kundera on Kitsch, and some of the comments he makes specifically about kitsch in Beethoven?  I think you may find what he says interesting, I know I did.

No, I didn't. Is it anywhere online?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mandryka on October 10, 2017, 11:30:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 11:16:13 AM
No, I didn't. Is it anywhere online?

That I don't know. The "classic" text on Kitsch is in section 6 of The Unbearable Lightness of Being. The comments on Beethoven are somewhere else, either Ignorance or Immortality, I cant remember offhand, though it's obvious what he will say given his idea of Kitsch and Beethoven's Promethean tendencies.   
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 11:36:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 10, 2017, 11:30:16 AM
That I don't know. The "classic" text on Kitsch is in section 6 of The Unbearable Lightness of Being. The comments on Beethoven are somewhere else, either Ignorance or Immortality, I cant remember offhand, though it's obvious what he will say given his idea of Kitsch and Beethoven's Promethean tendencies.

Oh, great. I have that book and I have even read it many years ago but I don't remember much. Time for a re-reading. Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on October 11, 2017, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2017, 02:02:20 PM
(https://christianrusso.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/cain-facepalm.jpg?w=584)

Even ancient statues are facepalming this ridiculous assertion.

This caused me to laugh hard enough to move the furniture.

:laugh:,

LKB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on October 11, 2017, 08:47:57 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 10, 2017, 01:34:53 AM
People usually blame Rousseau...

The "Sturm-and-Drang" and other romantic tendencies in German literature precede the Revolution by about a decade and Bonaparte (*1769) was only child at this time. Goethe's Werther was published in 1774, so the appropriate music for Werther's romantic dilemmas and suicidal tendencies would be Bach sons and Haydn, Schiller's "Die Räuber" (the one the early Verdi piece is based on) in 1781.
It gets all  more complicated because both Goethe and Schiller did a turn (not quite U, but maybe 120-150°) away from romanticism (and they were also abhorred by the terreur and gave up the revolutionary tendencies in favor of a more moderate enligthenment) and their humanist classicism ("Weimar") was the main foil for the first generation of German romantics in a narrower sense.

So one has several "dialectic" steps during Beethoven's lifetime:
- mid-18th-century rationalist enlightenment
-> first subjectivist/romantic reaction with pieces like the ones just mentioned
-> late 18th/early 19th century "classicism" (mainly Schiller and Goethe, Herder in German literature)
-> early 19th century romanticism or any other dialectical reaction against Goethe-style classicism, e.g Kleist) etc.

Many strains are mixed together here. And people always take what they need from predecessors or contemporaries.
(While Goethe's Faust was more an abstract drama of ideas for many Germans, Berlioz's seems to have focussed on the romantic, even "gothic" side, similarly with the political/historical Schiller plays when they were turned into operas.)

And all this cannot be simply mapped onto music, of course.

Already in that founding document of musical romanticism, Hoffmann's essay on Beethoven (mainly the 5th symphony) a very important point is how Beethoven explores the frontiers of *music*, rather independent of whatever it could "mean" or express. 20th century critics like Tovey and Riezler, Charles Rosen have expanded this very clearly. How Beethoven is above all pushing *music as such* forward, not imposing personal or literary allusions. (And in fact, there is very little factual basis for such allusions although they have been there from the beginning.
And I think that this is almost exactly the same at the beginning of the 20th century. Sure, there are some pieces of expressionist music matching decadent and dark fin de siècle literature ("Erwartung"). But overall the development towards more dissonant music is an exploration of inherent musical possibilities.

So the revolution Beethoven could stand for is not that music that used to serve the church or the nobility was now made to serve the personal pathologies of romantic composers, but rather that music was not to serve anything else at all but rule according to its own peculiar dynamics. (Of course, (late) Bach and many other composers before Beethoven already did this but rarely so stubbornly as Beethoven)

(That telegraph essay by Dylan Evans, "senior lecturer in intelligent autonomous systems", seems certainly more autonomous than intelligent...)


This is a beautiful post.

It so concisely ~ and rather elegantly ~ makes that point which is of such a primary importance if one hopes to understand a significant bulk of the repertoire from across the eras. Composers often compose with the sole intent and purpose of pursuing the possibility of an innately musical idea, "independent of whatever it could "mean" or express."



 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 12, 2017, 10:45:00 AM
I might have recruited Hoffmann for something he does not really make explicit, at least does not stress that much. (But he does make the point that what to many listeners appears willful and wild is in fact more tightly organized than most other music.)
This is irrelevant for the main point but I think what I thought of when I wrote was not mainly Hoffmann's comment but Grillparzer's eulogy for Beethoven. (And note that Grillparzer could be a quite a philistine, he completely trashed Weber's Euryanthe and called it an example of music that would have forbidden by the police in "the good times of Ancient Greece". He admired Beethoven but especially late Beethoven went probably far past his taste and understanding)

"Wie der Behemoth die Meere durchstürmt, durchflog er die Grenzen seiner Kunst. Vom Girren der Taube bis zum Rollen des Donners, von der spitzfindigsten Verwebung eigensinniger Kunstmittel bis zu dem furchtbaren Puncte, wo das Gebildete übergeht in die regellose Willkühr streitender Naturgewalten, alles hatte er durchmessen, alles erfaßt. Der nach ihm kommt, wird nicht fortsetzen, er wird anfangen müssen, denn sein Vorgänger hörte nur auf, wo die Kunst aufhört."

Like Behemoth passing through the seas he [Beethoven] flew past the frontiers of his Art. From the cooing of the dove to the growl of thunder, from the most sophisticated weaving together of peculiar artistic devices to the dreadful point where the artfully formed passes into the lawless caprice of battling forces of nature, he passed through everything, grasped everything. Whoever comes after him, cannot continue, he will have to begin because his predecessor only stopped where the Art stops.

https://beethovenfest.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/zum-185-todestag-ludwig-van-beethovens-die-gr/
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 12, 2017, 07:10:08 PM
Opinion:

For two American composers born in the 70s..........James Eckardt wrote better music than Aaron Cassidy.

THoughts?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 13, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
My only thought is: who are these people?

Honestly, I tried. I googled James Eckardt and came up with a whole lot of hits for a book reviewer in Thailand. At that point I gave up.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on October 13, 2017, 01:16:11 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 13, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
My only thought is: who are these people?

Honestly, I tried. I googled James Eckardt and came up with a whole lot of hits for a book reviewer in Thailand. At that point I gave up.
I seemed to have better luck finding them...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Eckardt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Cassidy
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 13, 2017, 01:32:59 AM
Hmmmm Aaron Cassidy seems to be the one who gets more exposure from what I have noticed
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 13, 2017, 01:33:24 AM
Lol whoops I meant Jason Eckardt not James...........................................
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 13, 2017, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 13, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
My only thought is: who are these people?

Your boycotting of living composers would horrify some guy.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 13, 2017, 05:58:09 AM
Quote from: North Star on October 13, 2017, 01:16:11 AM
I seemed to have better luck finding them...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Eckardt

It would have helped if I was given the correct name to actually search for.

There you have it folks: composers so well known that the person who initially named them couldn't quite remember the name.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 13, 2017, 05:59:53 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 13, 2017, 02:05:52 AM
Your boycotting of living composers would horrify some guy.  ;D

I don't boycott them. I'm quite sure I own a considerable number of works by living composers. Including (but not confined to) all the pop/rock/alternative musicians that lots of folks around here would be horrified that I don't boycott.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 13, 2017, 06:29:43 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 13, 2017, 05:58:09 AM
There you have it folks: composers so well known that the person who initially named them couldn't quite remember the name.

Quote from: ørfeo on October 13, 2017, 05:59:53 AM
I don't boycott them. I'm quite sure I own a considerable number of works by living composers. Including (but not confined to) all the pop/rock/alternative musicians that lots of folks around here would be horrified that I don't boycott.

Hah!

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on October 16, 2017, 06:20:47 AM
Care for others as well as you would an expensive violin, people are instruments too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on October 16, 2017, 08:18:13 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 13, 2017, 02:05:52 AM
Your boycotting of living composers would horrify some guy.  ;D

While l don't exactly boycott most living composers, enough of them bore the crap out of me consistently enough that l do not seek them out.

Living Composer  >:D,

LKB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: millionrainbows on October 20, 2017, 01:00:15 PM
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2017, 12:16:55 PM
Ah but did he use them all equally and all in the same order. Now that would interesting.

Oh, yeah, you mean like Schoenberg's 12-tone stuff. True. But even Bach had the Chromatic Fantasy, and the Sinfonia Nr. 9 uses 11 of the 12, but they're passing tones, usually. True 'use of all 12 tones' would be if they were all root movements. That would be true harmonic chromaticism.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 01:01:54 PM
Quote from: millionrainbows on October 20, 2017, 01:00:15 PM
Oh, yeah, you mean like Schoenberg's 12-tone stuff. True.

Except that that's not the way any of Schoenberg's, or anyone else's, 12-tone music actually works.  Why don't people just use their ears and hear that it's exactly the same as any other music, aside from the term?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 20, 2017, 02:24:47 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 01:01:54 PM
Except that that's not the way any of Schoenberg's, or anyone else's, 12-tone music actually works.  Why don't people just use their ears and hear that it's exactly the same as any other music, aside from the term?

Because it's not "exactly the same". "Exactly the same" would consist of copying out another composer's piece and claiming it was your own. Your insistence on claiming there's nothing at all different makes about as much sense as asserting that all human beings are clone copies of each other.

And it certainly doesn't make sense to prefer one kind of music that is "exactly the same" over another kind. And yet here we all are, exhibiting preferences. Do you deny you have preferences?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 02:51:19 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 20, 2017, 02:24:47 PM
Because it's not "exactly the same". "Exactly the same" would consist of copying out another composer's piece and claiming it was your own. Your insistence on claiming there's nothing at all different makes about as much sense as asserting that all human beings are clone copies of each other.

And it certainly doesn't make sense to prefer one kind of music that is "exactly the same" over another kind. And yet here we all are, exhibiting preferences. Do you deny you have preferences?

Yes, it is different from other pieces of music in the same way that other pieces of music are different from each other.  I don't have a preference for 12-tone music any more than I have a preference for pieces of music using the note D# exactly 62 times.  It seems like an irrelevant characteristic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 20, 2017, 02:54:50 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 02:51:19 PM
Yes, it is different from other pieces of music in the same way that other pieces of music are different from each other.  I don't have a preference for 12-tone music any more than I have a preference for pieces of music using the note D# exactly 62 times.  It seems like an irrelevant characteristic.

And because you find it irrelevant, you keep insisting that everybody else should also find it irrelevant. THAT is the biggest problem in the way you talk about this stuff. You're constantly mystified as to why other people decide to consider distinctions relevant that you don't consider relevant.

Which is not how subjective tastes work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 03:00:41 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 20, 2017, 02:54:50 PM
And because you find it irrelevant, you keep insisting that everybody else should also find it irrelevant. THAT is the biggest problem in the way you talk about this stuff. You're constantly mystified as to why other people decide to consider distinctions relevant that you don't consider relevant.

No, other people insist that there is a relevant distinction present, and I am asking them to say what it is.  All of the answers I receive are nonsensical, which indicates either that they are unable to articulate that distinction, though they are able to perceive it and I am not, or there is no distinction present.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 20, 2017, 03:03:26 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 03:00:41 PM
No, other people insist that there is a relevant distinction present, and I am asking them to say what it is.  All of the answers I receive are nonsensical, which indicates either that they are unable to articulate that distinction, though they are able to perceive it and I am not, or there is no distinction present.

Maybe you should roll your eyes and move on. I know that's what I'm going to do after this post.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Parsifal on October 20, 2017, 03:11:52 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 03:00:41 PM
No, other people insist that there is a relevant distinction present, and I am asking them to say what it is.  All of the answers I receive are nonsensical, which indicates either that they are unable to articulate that distinction, though they are able to perceive it and I am not, or there is no distinction present.

So you have excluded, as a matter principle, the possibility that they have articulated a distinction which you failed to understand?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 05:02:20 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 20, 2017, 03:11:52 PM
So you have excluded, as a matter principle, the possibility that they have articulated a distinction which you failed to understand?

Yes, because then they would have been able to articulate it in a way that was not self-contradictory.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: millionrainbows on October 21, 2017, 01:40:19 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 20, 2017, 01:01:54 PM
Why don't people just use their ears and hear that it's exactly the same as any other music, aside from the term?

Probably because "they" don't hear it that way. Exactly the same? That's a rather broad generalization.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Abuelo Igor on January 14, 2018, 01:56:36 AM
Richard Strauss was considerably more talented than Mahler.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 14, 2018, 04:47:38 AM
I would like to say: he was. But then I remember Mahler's 4th symphony. And I also would like to say he wasn't: but then I remember Elektra. Sometimes I like to put the other one above the other but most often they are close to a tie.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 14, 2018, 07:32:48 AM
Sure (Did not Stravinsky say "the talent that once was a genius" about Strauss?), but Mahler still turned out the more interesting instrumental music, I think.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 14, 2018, 08:04:41 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 14, 2018, 07:32:48 AM
Sure (Did not Stravinsky say "the talent that once was a genius" about Strauss?), but Mahler still turned out the more interesting instrumental music, I think.

Strauss wrote better operas, I'll give him that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 14, 2018, 08:38:41 AM
I think with talent we associate easy and precocious capability. Strauss wrote a bunch of "conservative" classicist instrumental stuff as a teenager and the best of these works, like the violin sonata (when he was slightly older) or the Burleske are very good. And then he does something like Don Juan in his mid-20s which was groundbreaking and overall pretty amazing.
As original and underrated "Das klagende Lied" is, I don't think the young Mahler displayed talent at the Straussian level.  For me the problem is that he used this huge talent mostly for a genre I tend to find shlocky, the "Tondichtung", while Mahler succeded with the more serious symphonies. And even in opera Strauss settled for less than he could have done after Elektra.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 14, 2018, 08:45:07 AM
While not taking any side (neither one nor the other is among my favorites at the moment), I think Strauss's output is much more varied than Mahler's. and therefore the former might appeal to a wider stratum of music lovers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 14, 2018, 08:45:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 14, 2018, 08:38:41 AM
I think with talent we associate easy and precocious capability. Strauss wrote a bunch of "conservative" classicist instrumental stuff as a teenager and the best of these works, like the violin sonata (when he was slightly older) or the Burleske are very good. And then he does something like Don Juan in his mid-20s which was groundbreaking and overall pretty amazing.
As original and underrated "Das klagende Lied" is, I don't think the young Mahler displayed talent at the Straussian level.

Entirely agreed.  Mahler was by no means a child prodigy, and his skill in composition didn't fully reveal itself until at least the Second Symphony or possibly later.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 17, 2018, 02:13:01 AM
R. Strauss was more facile than Mahler.

There is a huge difference, i.e. that quality/ability is not automatically inclusive with either talent or genius.

I didn't mean for this post to summarily end the discussion, while I think it pretty much does ;-)


Best regards
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 17, 2018, 02:13:01 AM
R. Strauss was more facile than Mahler.

There is a huge difference, i.e. that quality/ability is not automatically inclusive with either talent or genius.

I didn't mean for this post to summarily end the discussion, while I think it pretty much does ;-)


Best regards

I don't know if it closes things up (it may), but it is a consideration well worth the reminder.


I certainly admire Telemann's facility  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 17, 2018, 03:45:25 AM
The facility does wear its welcome when a composer writes faster than you can listen to their music, let alone perform it..
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 03:48:38 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 17, 2018, 03:45:25 AM
The facility does wear its welcome when a composer writes faster than you can listen to their music, let alone perform it..

There's beauty even in that, though, but not everyone sees it.   ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 17, 2018, 03:52:36 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 03:48:38 AM
There's beauty even in that, though, but not everyone sees it.   ;D
Beauty tends to be harder to see whizzing by from a moving train.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 04:04:46 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 17, 2018, 03:45:25 AM
The facility does wear its welcome when a composer writes faster than you can listen to their music, let alone perform it..

That's the right tack!  Once the work is created, we have all our own time to address it.  Hats off to"Papa"!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on January 17, 2018, 04:18:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 17, 2018, 03:31:51 AM
I don't know if it closes things up (it may), but it is a consideration well worth the reminder.

And then again, can we really say that Richard Strauss's Elektra (e.g.) is the work of a more "facile" composer than the Gustav Mahler of  the Symphony No. 4 (again, e.g.)?

Just to be clear, I admire both works immensely, so am not trying to put one ahead of the other... ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 04:25:32 AM
I follow you like a leopard.  Saint-Saëns was more facile than Ravel, but they were both geniuses.  And facility, of itself, is an imperfect indicator.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 04:29:16 AM
I'll take genuinely facile music over contrivedly (is this a word?) profound one any day and night.

As for Telemann, I am reminded of that musicologist, whose name I can't remember right now, who vituperated against the low quality of some of his cantatas as opposed to some masterpieces of Bach, only to learn years later that the latter were wrongly attributed to Bach: they had been actually composed by Telemann.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 04:33:07 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 04:29:16 AM
I'll take genuinely facile music over contrivedly (is this a word?) profound one any day and night.

It's a fine word, and nothing contrived.

QuoteAs for Telemann, I am reminded of that musicologist, whose name I can't remember right now, who vituperated against the low quality of some of his cantatas as opposed to the masterpieces of Bach, only to learn years later that the objects of his scorn were wrongly attributed to the former: they had been actually composed by the latter.

You realize, that the only fact here is that Bach wrote music which was short of a masterpiece, which I have practically always granted  8)   There may be other music, genuinely by Telemann, which may draw reasonable scorn   0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 04:35:09 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 04:29:16 AM
I'll take genuinely facile music over contrivedly (is this a word?) profound one any day and night.

As for Telemann, I am reminded of that musicologist, whose name I can't remember right now, who vituperated against the low quality of some of his cantatas as opposed to some masterpieces of Bach, only to learn years later that the latter were wrongly attributed to Bach: they had been actually composed by Telemann.

Well, the plot thickens.  Perhaps when the name of the musicologist returns to you, we might go back to the source.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 04:40:01 AM
Quote from: WikipediaParticularly striking examples of such judgements were produced by noted Bach biographers Philipp Spitta and Albert Schweitzer, who criticized Telemann's cantatas and then praised works they thought were composed by Bach, but which were composed by Telemann.[8]

The source mentioned is

Zohn, Steven: "Georg Philipp Telemann". In L. Root, Deane. Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. Oxford University Press.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 17, 2018, 04:54:00 AM
Two of these apocryphal cantatas now attributed to Telemann are BWV 141 and 160. This is particularly ironic because Spitta and others, even up to the mid 20th century tended to make a big deal of the obvious differences in quality between that facile writer of 1000s of pieces and the Fifth Evangelist and Father of German Music.

There are quite a few apocryphal Bach pieces and even more suspicious ones. Another example is a trio sonata C major BWV 1037 for two violins, now attributed to Bach's student Goldberg.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 05:00:09 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 04:40:01 AM
The source mentioned is

Zohn, Steven: "Georg Philipp Telemann". In L. Root, Deane. Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. Oxford University Press.

Good (and, thank you).

Now, what does it actually mean?

1. That Telemann actually wrote some works which are praiseworthy.  It does not follow that all that Telemann wrote is praiseworthy (after all, we are allowing that not all that Bach wrote is "a masterpiece").  Jn Rutter has written a few pieces which are very highly regarded;  and he has written a ton of mediocre boilerplate (and for the entirely understandable reason that there is a market for it).  Jn Rutter may both be a superior craftsman to (e.g.) Natalie Sleeth and Pepper Choplin, and yet not be A Great Composer.  Perhaps some similar principles apply to Telemann.

2. That listeners, lay and professional, can fall into lazy mental traps ("If Bach wrote it, it's great; if Telemann wrote it, it's rubbish").  This is true, and the detection of the fallacies is a worthy and necessary pursuit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 05:00:22 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 17, 2018, 04:54:00 AM
Two of these apocryphal cantatas now attributed to Telemann are BWV 141 and 160. This is particularly ironic because Spitta and others, even up to the mid 20th century tended to make a big deal of the obvious differences in quality between that facile writer of 1000s of pieces and the Fifth Evangelist and Father of German Music.

This tells more about Spitta and the others than about Telemann or Bach. The latter held the former in high enough esteem as to make him the godfather of his son Carl Philip Emmanuel. And ironically enough, it's only after Telemann gave up his appointment as Thomaskantor in Leipzig, and Graupner declined as well, that the post went to Bach.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 05:01:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 17, 2018, 04:54:00 AM
Two of these apocryphal cantatas now attributed to Telemann are BWV 141 and 160. This is particularly ironic because Spitta and others, even up to the mid 20th century tended to make a big deal of the obvious differences in quality between that facile writer of 1000s of pieces and the Fifth Evangelist and Father of German Music.

There are quite a few apocryphal Bach pieces and even more suspicious ones. Another example is a trio sonata C major BWV 1037 for two violins, now attributed to Bach's student Goldberg.

I think the refinement of Bach scholarship can only be a good thing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 05:02:53 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 05:00:22 AM
This tells more about Spitta and the others than about Telemann or Bach.


Yes.

Quote[...] And ironically enough, it's only after Telemann gave up his appointment as Thomaskantor in Leipzig, and Graupner declined as well, that the post went to Bach.

Of course, this may say as much about non-musical factors as about the musical.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 05:15:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 17, 2018, 05:00:09 AM
1. That Telemann actually wrote some works which are praiseworthy.  It does not follow that all that Telemann wrote is praiseworthy (after all, we are allowing that not all that Bach wrote is "a masterpiece"). 

In all earnest, I don't know what "praiseworthy" means strictly musicologically speking. My personal criterion for deciding praiseworthiness is my liking the music of composer X at the first hearing, resulting in wanting to hear, and actively searching, new recordings of it. On all counts Telemann is highly praiseworthy in my book. Now certainly, the fact that I like it a lot is in itself no indication that it's really, objectively praiseworthy, just as the fact that he wrote tons of music is in itself no indication of a lack of quality.

Quote2. That listeners, lay and professional, can fall into lazy mental traps ("If Bach wrote it, it's great; if Telemann wrote it, it's rubbish").  This is true, and the detection of the fallacies is a worthy and necessary pursuit.

Yes.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 17, 2018, 05:02:53 AM
Of course, this may say as much about non-musical factors as about the musical.

And yes again.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: San Antone on January 17, 2018, 05:35:54 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 04:29:16 AM
I'll take genuinely facile music over contrivedly (is this a word?) profound one any day and night.

As for Telemann, I am reminded of that musicologist, whose name I can't remember right now, who vituperated against the low quality of some of his cantatas as opposed to some masterpieces of Bach, only to learn years later that the latter were wrongly attributed to Bach: they had been actually composed by Telemann.

I've been reading John Eliot Gardiner's book on Bach and one thing (among many others) that I learned was that Telemann was the "great composer" of the period when Bach was getting established.  Bach admired Telemann.  His reputation has suffered in our own era, and I am not convinced that the current appraisal of Telemann is correct.

TD

Re: Mahler v. Strauss - I couldn't care less; I don't listen to either one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 07:18:51 AM
More of my opinion about Telemann, which may or may not be popular:

Three of the dullest musical performances I experienced from 1981 to 1998, were pieces by Telemann.  I think this is about as objective a fact as may arise in the world of music.

Does that absolutely mean that Telemann is uniformly mediocre?  No.  Possibly, it may only mean that these were three bad performances;  this, however, would strike me as strange in concerts which were otherwise polished and thoroughly engaging.  Strange;  but in theory, not impossible.

Some listeners may be inclined, notwithstanding those data points, to keep giving Telemann a try, and why should they not?  Myself, I had other musical fish to fry.  I had formed a low opinion of Telemann, and it was not mere prejudice.

Jump to January 2014, and one of the eight CDs in the Pierre Hantaï box is Telemann, and the music is very good.  Also, on the concert which was the début of the harpsichord which Maria painted, one of the pieces was a Telemann recorder/tranverse flute double concerto, which is by a large margin my most positive live experience of the composer's work – not a life-changing musical experience (and yes, I have had those with Baroque music, too) but good, & solid.

So, yes, I now have experience of Telemann's best side.

Furthermore, I am in substantial sympathy with the point that it is no use thinking of the Baroque era as The Great J.S. Bach (and, aye, he was Great), but everyone else was a mediocrity.  My substantial listening to Monteverdi, D. Scarlatti, F. & L. Couperin, Frescobaldi inoculates me from that hero-obsession.

Yet, a lot of Telemann strikes me as formulaic (possibly strengthening the Jn Rutter parallel);  so I am artistically disinclined to feel that Telemann has been treated with gross unfairness.  Some unfairness, all right;  but not gross unfairness.

So, what of those first performances of Telemann, which left so powerfully negative an impression?  Could they have been great pieces, indifferently performed?

Consider two scripts:  Hamlet, and an episode of Three's Company.  Consider an uninspired staging of that Three's Company episode:  you don't come away with the idea that, This is a great script, it just needs better execution.  Where the greatness of Hamlet will come through even a modest community stage production.

The Hamlet is JS Bach.  I don't even think (though I am open to being shown otherwise) that the best of Telemann is Hamlet.  But a large body of workaday Telemann is (IMO) Three's Company.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2018, 08:19:53 AM
Are you implying that you think a "Three's Company" script has any redeeming value?  ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 08:29:11 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2018, 08:19:53 AM
Are you implying that you think a "Three's Company" script has any redeeming value?  ???

I plucked a name out of a hat, for purposes of discussion.

I am not prepared to argue for the merits of Three's Company  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2018, 08:50:22 AM
I'm not sure what we are to learn from an analogy involving Telemann and something you "picked out of a hat."

I like Telemann. Like Handel, he wrote imitative counterpoint that is skillfully crafted and immediately appealing. Bach is a special case, since non-stereotypical counterpoint apparently poured out of him like water, counterpoint that reveals more secrets every time you listen to it. I'm glad to have all of it available.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on January 17, 2018, 09:43:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 05:00:22 AM
This tells more about Spitta and the others than about Telemann or Bach. The latter held the former in high enough esteem as to make him the godfather of his son Carl Philip Emmanuel. And ironically enough, it's only after Telemann gave up his appointment as Thomaskantor in Leipzig, and Graupner declined as well, that the post went to Bach.

I will stipulate (not because of the "C.P.E.'s godfather" business) that Bach respected Telemann musically, not necessarily as an equal. But that does not obligate a modern listener to love or even enjoy Telemann's music.

Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 05:15:21 AM
In all earnest, I don't know what "praiseworthy" means strictly musicologically speking. My personal criterion for deciding praiseworthiness is my liking the music of composer X at the first hearing, resulting in wanting to hear, and actively searching, new recordings of it. On all counts Telemann is highly praiseworthy in my book. Now certainly, the fact that I like it a lot is in itself no indication that it's really, objectively praiseworthy, just as the fact that he wrote tons of music is in itself no indication of a lack of quality.

I agree with all of this.

But for someone who does not share your enthusiasm for Telemann's work, his prolificacy becomes an easy target. Same for Vivaldi, Haydn, Mozart...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 09:46:06 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 17, 2018, 07:18:51 AM
More of my opinion about Telemann, which may or may not be popular: [etc]

Thank you for this detailed and illuminating post. It enforces my conviction that our personal experience (and more general, our whole personality, including a lot of extra-musical factors and parameters) is paramount for how we perceive music (or any other art, for that matter) and is the primary factor which determines our appreciation of it, or lack thereof. No amount of musicological objectivity --- assuming such a thing can really exist ---  can make us like or dislike anything; our likes and dislikes are utterly and irremediably personal, that is, subjective, post factum rationalization notwithstanding.

That being said, I submit for your consideration that it might be the case that Bach's music, although originally produced within and governed by the same aesthetics as that of Telemann, lends itself to an easier appropriation and valorization by a different aesthetics than that of the latter --- and that in this very appropriation and valorization various factors are involved which are oftenly ideological and not necessarily related to any objective assessment of the music itself. To link this to the discussion at hand (facile / facility vs profundity), it might be argued that this dichotomy was unknown to either Bach or Telemann and that the current musicological evaluation of their music operates under categories and assumptions established by philosophical Romanticism, ie under criteria that neither Bach nor Telemann would have acknowledged as legitimate, much less valid.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 09:53:12 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 17, 2018, 09:43:47 AM
I will stipulate (not because of the "C.P.E.'s godfather" business) that Bach respected Telemann musically, not necessarily as an equal. But that does not obligate a modern listener to love or even enjoy Telemann's music.

Nor did I claim it does.

Quote
But for someone who does not share your enthusiasm for Telemann's work, his prolificacy becomes an easy target. Same for Vivaldi, Haydn, Mozart...

I initially read "profligacy".  :D

Prolificacy can become an easy target only in an aesthetic / philosophical environment which is already biased against it. See my post above. In their own time, Telemann, Bach, Vivaldi, Haydn, Mozart (and their contemporaries) were supposed and expected to be prolific --- it was simply part of their job. The notion of art for art's sake had not been conceived yet, let alone that of the solitary and misunderstood genius following only the dictates of his inner urges.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 17, 2018, 10:15:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 17, 2018, 07:18:51 AM
More of my opinion about Telemann, which may or may not be popular:

Three of the dullest musical performances I experienced from 1981 to 1998, were pieces by Telemann.  I think this is about as objective a fact as may arise in the world of music.

Does that absolutely mean that Telemann is uniformly mediocre?  No.  Possibly, it may only mean that these were three bad performances;  this, however, would strike me as strange in concerts which were otherwise polished and thoroughly engaging.  Strange;  but in theory, not impossible.

Some listeners may be inclined, notwithstanding those data points, to keep giving Telemann a try, and why should they not?  Myself, I had other musical fish to fry.  I had formed a low opinion of Telemann, and it was not mere prejudice.

Jump to January 2014, and one of the eight CDs in the Pierre Hantaï box is Telemann, and the music is very good.  Also, on the concert which was the début of the harpsichord which Maria painted, one of the pieces was a Telemann recorder/tranverse flute double concerto, which is by a large margin my most positive live experience of the composer's work – not a life-changing musical experience (and yes, I have had those with Baroque music, too) but good, & solid.

So, yes, I now have experience of Telemann's best side.

Furthermore, I am in substantial sympathy with the point that it is no use thinking of the Baroque era as The Great J.S. Bach (and, aye, he was Great), but everyone else was a mediocrity.  My substantial listening to Monteverdi, D. Scarlatti, F. & L. Couperin, Frescobaldi inoculates me from that hero-obsession.

Yet, a lot of Telemann strikes me as formulaic (possibly strengthening the Jn Rutter parallel);  so I am artistically disinclined to feel that Telemann has been treated with gross unfairness.  Some unfairness, all right;  but not gross unfairness.

So, what of those first performances of Telemann, which left so powerfully negative an impression?  Could they have been great pieces, indifferently performed?

Consider two scripts:  Hamlet, and an episode of Three's Company.  Consider an uninspired staging of that Three's Company episode:  you don't come away with the idea that, This is a great script, it just needs better execution.  Where the greatness of Hamlet will come through even a modest community stage production.

The Hamlet is JS Bach.  I don't even think (though I am open to being shown otherwise) that the best of Telemann is Hamlet.  But a large body of workaday Telemann is (IMO) Three's Company.
I would suggest one other idea - you just were not in the right place (perhaps in life or musically or both) to take in the joys of his music. This is why I hesitate (for myself) to talk overly long about composers I dislike. After all, what we enjoy in art (and what we hear) can change over time. And it is not just a question of what we hear, but what aspects of music (in general or specifically) attract us. As our understanding and appreciation change, so too will how we hear the same piece of music (or the same composer).

You may find it interesting to learn that the greatest surprises in my life (musically speaking) were generally from the Baroque and Classical periods, despite my preferring music from the Romantic and post-romantic period. I think of Monteverdi (the first, and perhaps greatest musical surprise in my life), Scarlatti (the most recent), Biber, and Michael Haydn to name a few. But I heard Monteverdi for the first time in my second year of college. I sometimes wonder how I would have reacted 2-3 years earlier. I might not have been ready for those (glorious) sounds.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 17, 2018, 10:19:32 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 17, 2018, 10:15:38 AM
I would suggest one other idea - you just were not in the right place (perhaps in life or musically or both) to take in the joys of his music. This is why I hesitate (for myself) to talk overly long about composers I dislike. After all, what we enjoy in art (and what we hear) can change over time. And it is not just a question of what we hear, but what aspects of music (in general or specifically) attract us. As our understanding and appreciation change, so too will how we hear the same piece of music (or the same composer).

You may find it interesting to learn that the greatest surprises in my life (musically speaking) were generally from the Baroque and Classical periods, despite my preferring music from the Romantic and post-romantic period. I think of Monteverdi (the first, and perhaps greatest musical surprise in my life), Scarlatti (the most recent), Biber, and Michael Haydn to name a few. But I heard Monteverdi for the first time in my second year of college. I sometimes wonder how I would have reacted 2-3 years earlier. I might not have been ready for those (glorious) sounds.

It is a very good idea;  because the first time I listened to the Nielsen symphonies, and the Vaughan Williams symphonies, I wasn't at all attuned to them.

So, you may well be right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2018, 10:35:19 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 17, 2018, 10:15:38 AM
I would suggest one other idea - you just were not in the right place (perhaps in life or musically or both) to take in the joys of his music. This is why I hesitate (for myself) to talk overly long about composers I dislike. After all, what we enjoy in art (and what we hear) can change over time. And it is not just a question of what we hear, but what aspects of music (in general or specifically) attract us. As our understanding and appreciation change, so too will how we hear the same piece of music (or the same composer).

You may find it interesting to learn that the greatest surprises in my life (musically speaking) were generally from the Baroque and Classical periods, despite my preferring music from the Romantic and post-romantic period. I think of Monteverdi (the first, and perhaps greatest musical surprise in my life), Scarlatti (the most recent), Biber, and Michael Haydn to name a few. But I heard Monteverdi for the first time in my second year of college. I sometimes wonder how I would have reacted 2-3 years earlier. I might not have been ready for those (glorious) sounds.

Keeping in line with my previous post, I'd say that the frequently occuring experience of suddenly expanding our musical horizon in unexpected directions amounts to discovering the depths of our inner self, which are not always apparent even to us.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2018, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 17, 2018, 10:15:38 AM
I would suggest one other idea - you just were not in the right place (perhaps in life or musically or both) to take in the joys of his music. This is why I hesitate (for myself) to talk overly long about composers I dislike.

Certainly this is my experience.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 20, 2018, 10:18:52 PM
Quote from: North Star on January 17, 2018, 03:52:36 AM
Beauty tends to be harder to see whizzing by from a moving train.

I took some great, impressionistic photos of trees out of a speeding train once.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2018, 12:30:24 AM
Telemann has always been a bit dull composer to me, but I was impressed by his cantata Du aber Daniel, gehe hin on Sony Vivarte. Anyway, I feel composers such as Fasch and Graupner should be talked more about, and Telemann less to achieve a balance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 12:46:40 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2018, 12:30:24 AM
Telemann has always been a bit dull composer to me, but I was impressed by his cantata Du aber Daniel, gehe hin on Sony Vivarte. Anyway, I feel composers such as Fasch and Graupner should be talked more about, and Telemann less to achieve a balance.

So typical! In order to promote composers one likes, composers one doesn't like must be demoted.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2018, 02:06:20 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 12:46:40 AM
So typical! In order to promote composers one likes, composers one doesn't like must be demoted.

If you concentrate more on something, it's away from other things. It's math.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2018, 03:05:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2018, 02:06:20 AM
If you concentrate more on something, it's away from other things. It's math.

Culture isn't math.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2018, 03:06:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 21, 2018, 03:05:34 AM
Culture isn't math.

Thank God.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 21, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2018, 02:06:20 AM
If you concentrate more on something, it's away from other things. It's math.

There's plenty of math that doesn't work that way.  You're thinking of a zero-sum game, which music certainly is not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 21, 2018, 06:47:11 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 21, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
There's plenty of math that doesn't work that way.  You're thinking of a zero-sum game, which music certainly is not.

If he is talking about attention paid it is a zero sum game, since there are only so many hours in the day. If you pay more attention to one composer, you pay less to all of the others.

I decided to listen to Saint-Saens PC's, but after getting through two I decided to listen to Martinu symphonies, after getting through three I decided to listen to Tansman symphonies, after getting through three I decided to listen to listen to Milhaud symphonies, after listening to four I decided to listen to Beethoven String Quartets. Now I'm on Beethoven Piano Sonatas. Never got back to Saint-Saens PC's, no disrespect to Saint-Saens.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 21, 2018, 07:05:42 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 21, 2018, 06:47:11 AM
If he is talking about attention paid it is a zero sum game, since there are only so many hours in the day. If you pay more attention to one composer, you pay less to all of the others.

I decided to listen to Saint-Saens PC's, but after getting through two I decided to listen to Martinu symphonies, after getting through three I decided to listen to Tansman symphonies, after getting through three I decided to listen to listen to Milhaud symphonies, after listening to four I decided to listen to Beethoven String Quartets. Now I'm on Beethoven Piano Sonatas. Never got back to Saint-Saens PC's, no disrespect to Saint-Saens.

True enough, but that wasn't the context under discussion.  The original context was that Telemann should be talked about less in order to make way for discussion of Fasch and Graupner.  When I was in high school, the number of composers I could reasonably discuss was limited to a handful, maybe about a dozen.  Today, my horizons have greatly expanded, and I can say more about many others than I could have about those dozen back then, but perhaps surprisingly, this makes it possible to say even more about those few, not less.  If I can write about Rameau's music or Fux's in addition to that of Bach, Handel, and Vivaldi, then that just gives me more to say about the latter through their relation to the former.

Like I said, music is not itself a zero-sum game, though as you said there are limited ways in which consumption of it can be construed as one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 21, 2018, 07:10:25 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 21, 2018, 07:05:42 AMLike I said, music is not itself a zero-sum game, though as you said there are limited ways in which consumption of it can be construed as one.

Limited way, such as the concept of time...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 21, 2018, 07:20:12 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 21, 2018, 07:10:25 AM
Limited way, such as the concept of time...

Which is not directly correlated to other measures of art consumption, such as engagement.  One brings one's entire listening history and knowledge of music into play when listening to a piece, and this is something that only grows, rather than growing and shrinking as priorities shift.

So even consumption of music is only a zero-sum game in limited ways.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 08:34:26 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 21, 2018, 03:05:34 AM
Culture isn't math.

Nor is it a zero-sum game.

EDIT: I see Mahlerian beat me to it, and also made other salient points.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 21, 2018, 09:03:13 AM
If not some musicians and listeners had prevailed playing Telemann (and not only/mainly Bach and Handel), lesser known German composers like Graupner or Fasch would be even more obscure than they actually are. Sure, if one play Telemann one cannot play something else at the same time. (So it is zero sum in that restricted, rather trivial sense.)
But the historical path leading to the fact that there are any Fasch recordings at all, probably involved some people editing/playing/listening Telemann.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 09:23:44 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 21, 2018, 09:03:13 AM
If not some musicians and listeners had prevailed playing Telemann (and not only/mainly Bach and Handel), lesser known German composers like Graupner or Fasch would be even more obscure than they actually are. Sure, if one play Telemann one cannot play something else at the same time. (So it is zero sum in that restricted, rather trivial sense.)
But the historical path leading to the fact that there are any Fasch recordings at all, probably involved some people editing/playing/listening Telemann.

This.

For 71dB's information, Fasch and Graupner are well represented in my library and I have appreciated them as positively as I have Telemann. I just find the notion that talking less about the latter is a necessary step in making the former two better known deeply misguided.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 21, 2018, 11:45:26 AM
Time spent is a zero sum game. More reading X, less reading Y. So that is indisputable. But the importance of a work in one's life is not proportional to the amount of time spent on it. I used to listen to the Goldbergs endlessly. Now maybe twice a year. But they are still an important part of my musical experience and education. I can explore Spohr without losing the Goldbergs. But I cannot explore Spohr and Graupner both, that really is zero sum.

So it is zero sum in some ways but not in all.

In short, you are all wrong :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 21, 2018, 12:51:25 PM
Quote from: Ken B on January 21, 2018, 11:45:26 AM
Time spent is a zero sum game. More reading X, less reading Y. So that is indisputable. But the importance of a work in one's life is not proportional to the amount of time spent on it. I used to listen to the Goldbergs endlessly. Now maybe twice a year. But they are still an important part of my musical experience and education. I can explore Spohr without losing the Goldbergs. But I cannot explore Spohr and Graupner both, that really is zero sum.

So it is zero sum in some ways but not in all.

In short, you are all wrong :)

Given that that's more or less exactly the same point I made...I'm wondering how I can be both wrong and right on it at the same time.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 09:23:44 AM
This.

For 71dB's information, Fasch and Graupner are well represented in my library and I have appreciated them as positively as I have Telemann. I just find the notion that talking less about the latter is a necessary step in making the former two better known deeply misguided.

Noted. It's how it works, relative promotion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 21, 2018, 05:25:04 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 09:23:44 AM
This.

For 71dB's information, Fasch and Graupner are well represented in my library and I have appreciated them as positively as I have Telemann. I just find the notion that talking less about the latter is a necessary step in making the former two better known deeply misguided.

Deeply misguided? 71dB made his comments in reference to "talking about" and "concentrating on." One takes finite time, and attention is a finite resource which perhaps the most valuable thing we have. They are both zero-sum. If you talk about something, you have less time to talk about something else, if you devote attention to something, you have less time to devote attention to something else. For instance, the attention you have devoted to fault-finding with 71dB has reduced the talking time and attention you have available for Fasch and Graupner, whatever that is.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 21, 2018, 05:25:04 PM
Deeply misguided? 71dB made his comments in reference to "talking about" and "concentrating on." One takes finite time, and attention is a finite resource which perhaps the most valuable thing we have. They are both zero-sum. If you talk about something, you have less time to talk about something else, if you devote attention to something, you have less time to devote attention to something else.

I'm absolutely fine with 71dB talking less about Telemann and more about Fasch and Graupner. But he formulated it in such a way as to imply that everybody else should do that, in order to redress the balance. That's wrong.

Quote
For instance, the attention you have devoted to fault-finding with 71dB has reduced the talking time and attention you have available for Fasch and Graupner, whatever that is.

Pot calling the kettle black.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 21, 2018, 09:16:34 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Noted. It's how it works, relative promotion.

No, it's not how it works. Telemann's revival has been brought about by talking about him and recording his music, all the while JS Bach was being talked about and recorded at least as much as before.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 21, 2018, 10:30:08 PM
I hate maths
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on January 22, 2018, 12:42:03 AM
Quote from: jessop on January 21, 2018, 10:30:08 PM
I hate maths
Wrong thread, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 22, 2018, 02:02:17 AM
Quote from: jessop on January 21, 2018, 10:30:08 PM
I hate maths

Maths is more vast than China. Which part of it do you hate specifically?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: aleazk on January 22, 2018, 03:45:31 AM
Quote from: jessop on January 21, 2018, 10:30:08 PM
I hate maths

Yes, it's common to hate what one doesn't understand...  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2018, 04:00:29 AM
Ouch!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on January 24, 2018, 06:15:49 AM
I'm indifferent towards maths. I didn't like doing it at school, but then I didn't like school at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 24, 2018, 07:12:59 AM
"Professional music critics rarely possess any aptitude for mathematics.  Hence, they like to compare musical processes unintelligible to them with the equally darksome methods of mathematical thinking." - Nicolas Slonimsky
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2018, 07:22:59 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 24, 2018, 07:12:59 AM
"Professional music critics rarely possess any aptitude for mathematics.  Hence, they like to compare musical processes unintelligible to them with the equally darksome methods of mathematical thinking." - Nicolas Slonimsky

Pow!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 24, 2018, 07:36:53 AM
there was a contemporary review that called a Berlioz piece (do not remember which one) "sterile algebra". So there apparently is some tradition here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2018, 07:46:20 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 24, 2018, 07:12:59 AM
"Professional music critics rarely possess any aptitude for mathematics.  Hence, they like to compare musical processes unintelligible to them with the equally darksome methods of mathematical thinking." - Nicolas Slonimsky

I'd venture to say that for the rather frequent hating of maths no small responsibility should be assigned to dull textbooks and even duller teachers --- or viceversa.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 24, 2018, 08:05:18 AM
Most people are indifferent to things they do not understand and don't care for.
It is different with maths is probably that it is often taught badly but an important compulsory subject in most schools, so people come to hate it because they are afraid to fail.

It can be made entertaining, though:

http://www.mathematikum.de/en.html
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on January 24, 2018, 09:30:19 AM
Here is something that is very well done: helpful use of animation to explain a mathematical result which is not trivial.

I venture to say it is simple enough even for serialists and Romanians, thus providing some common ground :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaL_Cb42WyY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaL_Cb42WyY)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 24, 2018, 12:34:51 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 24, 2018, 07:12:59 AM
"Professional music critics rarely possess any aptitude for mathematics.  Hence, they like to compare musical processes unintelligible to them with the equally darksome methods of mathematical thinking." - Nicolas Slonimsky

Well that sounds highly questionable, given the well established links between musical ability and mathematical aptitude. Unless, I suppose, one does not assume that music critics ever possess musical ability.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Pat B on January 24, 2018, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 24, 2018, 12:34:51 PM
Well that sounds highly questionable, given the well established links between musical ability and mathematical aptitude. Unless, I suppose, one does not assume that music critics ever possess musical ability.

Slonimsky was the author (compiler?) of Lexicon of Musical Invective. I'm guessing he understood exactly the implications of his statement, but probably with tongue at least a bit in cheek.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 24, 2018, 01:19:14 PM
Quote from: jessop on January 21, 2018, 10:30:08 PM
I hate maths

Maybe Nancy can make you hate math less? (https://www.youtube.com/user/mathbff)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on January 24, 2018, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 24, 2018, 12:34:51 PM
Well that sounds highly questionable, given the well established links between musical ability and mathematical aptitude. Unless, I suppose, one does not assume that music critics ever possess musical ability.

From here (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-a-link-between-music-and-math/), eg, the link seems to be between musical training and mathematical ability (and they're not sure of the exact reason for the link, either).  Many critics, then as now, are not professionally trained as musicians, making the assumed connection irrelevant.

Anyway, as Pat B pointed out, it's definitely written with a wink in mind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 24, 2018, 02:32:41 PM
*Shrug* I didn't have any musical training before I was showing how good I was at maths.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on January 25, 2018, 01:11:52 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 24, 2018, 07:46:20 AM
I'd venture to say that for the rather frequent hating of maths no small responsibility should be assigned to dull textbooks and even duller teachers --- or viceversa.  :laugh:

+1
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2018, 01:16:30 AM
It's not actually about any links between math and music, but rather about using mathematical to express musical derision.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 25, 2018, 03:31:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 25, 2018, 01:16:30 AM
It's not actually about any links between math and music, but rather about using mathematical to express musical derision.

Which makes little sense. Trying to use mathematical as a derogatory term? A rigorous Bach fugue is a thing of wonder precisely because it combines mathematics with art.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 25, 2018, 03:56:39 AM
The idea is probably that it the art denigrated in such a fashion is overly theoretical, difficult, overly intricate, unspontaneous, unemotional, dry etc.
Which makes it really odd that "sterile algebra" was applied to the fiery arch-romantic Berlioz of all people...
Another point is that in some cases where the person using the derogatory comparison does have some knowledge of strict structural methods behind isorhythmic motets, fugues or serial music, so the comparison is not completely false although all the implications are at least misleading.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 10:06:45 AM
1. Beethoven's music is much better than, and must be rescued from, its posterity.

2. The German/Austrian canon is a late, nationalistic, ideological fabrication with little real background, if at all: with few exceptions, for each and every composer in its top 10 there is at least one non-German/Austrian, or one neglected German/Austrian, of equal musical quality.



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on April 10, 2018, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 10:06:45 AM
1. Beethoven's music is much better than, and must be rescued from, its posterity.

2. The German/Austrian canon is a late, nationalistic, ideological fabrication with little real background, if at all: with few exceptions, for each and every composer in its top 10 there is at least one non-German/Austrian, or one neglected German/Austrian, of equal musical quality.

Reading Taruskin much?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 10:22:39 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 10, 2018, 10:16:06 AM
Reading Taruskin much?

I had held these ideas long before reading Taruskin.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mahlerian on April 10, 2018, 10:26:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 10:22:39 AM
I had held these ideas long before reading Taruskin.

How are they so unpopular, though?  I think that there are many composers outside of the Austro-German canon worthy of standing comparison with those inside, and it seems that most people here agree, based on their listening habits.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 10:31:06 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 10, 2018, 10:26:08 AM
How are they so unpopular, though?  I think that there are many composers outside of the Austro-German canon worthy of standing comparison with those inside, and it seems that most people here agree, based on their listening habits.

Most people here, perhaps, although I wouldn't bet on it --- but when it comes to popularity the world is much larger than GMG.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: San Antone on April 10, 2018, 10:47:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 10:31:06 AM
Most people here, perhaps, although I wouldn't bet on it --- but when it comes to popularity the world is much larger than GMG.

What is "unpopular" about your opinion, imo, is that you think it matters how popular classical music or composers are with the world beyond GMG.

Is it not enough for you to simply listen to what you enjoy and forget the rest? 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 10, 2018, 10:51:08 AM
...Florestan emerges, snarling, from an elevator with Beethoven's fifth playing softly in the background:

"Just once I'd like to hear them play Ferdinand Ries!!!"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2018, 10:56:36 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 10, 2018, 10:51:08 AM
...Florestan emerges, snarling, from an elevator with Beethoven's fifth playing softly in the background:

"Just once I'd like to hear them play Ferdinand Ries!!!"

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on April 10, 2018, 11:00:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 10:06:45 AM
1. Beethoven's music is much better than, and must be rescued from, its posterity.

2. The German/Austrian canon is a late, nationalistic, ideological fabrication with little real background, if at all: with few exceptions, for each and every composer in its top 10 there is at least one non-German/Austrian, or one neglected German/Austrian, of equal musical quality.

I don't understand 1.
I'd like to apply a few distinctions to 2. There are without question a few extremely important and influential composers from Germany/Austria. I disagree that for Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms and Wagner there is at least one other composer of similar quality and importance. Maybe Brahms is not quite as important as the others but I think he is still by far the most important non-opera composer of his generation (born between ca. 1820 and 1840). For Bach one could argue Handel (which would be odd because he was German as well) or maybe Rameau. But I don't think many would agree.

EDIT: I might have misunderstood the claim. I do not disagree that for each of the top 10 German/Austrian composers there could be found a roughly equally important composer, if one can pick from the whole of music history (like Monteverdi, Stravinsky etc). But I think that among their respective contemporaries these guys (Bach, Mozart etc.) dominated (or dominate in the retrospective canon) for good musical reasons and that this is not a mere fabrication by Philipp Spitta or other 19th century music historians.

However, I agree that forming composers from about 200 years (say Bach to Schönberg and Hindemith) into one line of tradition and connecting this with something "German" is problematic or even nonsensical and was probably inspired by 19th century nationalism. Germany and Austria were rather distinct countries and different cultures for most of this time. And, more importantly, the influence and impact of these composers, both as input and output, usually was very "European". It is disingenious to think of Haydn and Mozart or of Brahms, Bruckner and Wagner as "national schools" like one could with some justification in the case of the late 19th century Russians. And I would argue that this is precisely why they were so important. They "transcend" the national schools.

It is somewhat different with opera because this was Italian/French dominated, so unlike in instrumental music there was a conscious effort to establish German language opera. But Mozart, who started German Opera for real (there was German baroque opera but it did not amount to a distinct style, I think) also wrote equally or more important operas and his style was strongly italian-influenced. In any case, nobody would seriously claim that German opera was as "dominant" as instrumental music in the canon/repertoire, so this may be a moot point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2018, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 10, 2018, 10:51:08 AM
...Florestan emerges, snarling, from an elevator with Beethoven's fifth playing softly in the background:

"Just once I'd like to hear them play Ferdinand Ries!!!"

That's the spirit!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on April 10, 2018, 11:21:29 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 10, 2018, 10:51:08 AM
...Florestan emerges, snarling, from an elevator with Beethoven's fifth playing softly in the background:

"Just once I'd like to hear them play Ferdinand Ries!!!"

And don't forget: he's knitting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 10, 2018, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 10, 2018, 10:51:08 AM
...Florestan emerges, snarling, from an elevator with Beethoven's fifth playing softly in the background:

"Just once I'd like to hear them play Ferdinand Ries!!!"
Hell yeah! That would be awesome!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on April 11, 2018, 01:46:58 PM
*shrug* One might just as well complain about the sudden profusion of French composers in a certain period, and all those others hanging around Paris.

Culture is not evenly distributed. The arts flourish in certain places at certain times because the conditions are right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The Six on May 16, 2018, 04:29:30 AM
Alberti Bass is awful and Mozart's frequent use of it holds him back from being the greatest composer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 16, 2018, 04:32:38 AM
Quote from: The Six on May 16, 2018, 04:29:30 AM
Alberti Bass is awful and Mozart's frequent use of it holds him back from being the greatest composer.
The single, actual reason? :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:20:12 AM
I don't know whether this is unpopular or not around here. But it would be unpopular in a room of music reviewers...

*deep breath*

Graham Johnson might be a decent accompanist, but as a writer of booklet notes for his song series on Hyperion he is an exasperating arsehole.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 04, 2018, 06:27:04 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:20:12 AM
Graham Johnson might be a decent accompanist, but as a writer of booklet notes for his song series on Hyperion he is an exasperating arsehole.

I have the Schumann and the Schubert's Contemporaries boxes but I don't remember his liner notes as being particularly annoying. An example or two of his arseholeness might be useful.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:35:02 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 04, 2018, 06:27:04 AM
I have the Schumann and the Schubert's Contemporaries boxes but I don't remember his liner notes as being particularly annoying. An example or two of his arseholeness might be useful.  :)

If you have the complete boxes, most of the arseholery is missing. You need the individual volume booklets, which can be found on the Hyperion website.

I have the Faure series, where he manages to communicate which songs he thinks aren't really worth listening to but he included them in a complete collection, wasn't that nice of him?

But it's the Brahms series that has me seeing red at the moment. Volume 1 will do nicely to illustrate, but I think the first 6 all have the glaring example:

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDJ33121

Each booklet starts with his condescending explanation of why he's right to not group songs together in opuses (the way that the DG and CPO sets of Brahms do). Each booklet is then rife with justifications for grouping songs together, including in opuses.

Starting with the first two songs on Volume 1, which he announces are clearly an intentional pair. He then goes on to convey what a genius Brahms was for putting op.48 together from songs that were composed at different times to different poets.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 06:37:02 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:35:02 AM
If you have the complete boxes, most of the arseholery is missing. You need the individual volume booklets, which can be found on the Hyperion website.

But it's the Brahms series that has me seeing red at the moment. Volume 1 will do nicely to illustrate, but I think the first 6 all have the glaring example:

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDJ33121

Each booklet starts with his condescending explanation of why he's right to not group songs together in opuses (the way that the DG and CPO sets of Brahms do). Each booklet is then rife with justifications for grouping songs together, including in opuses.

Starting with the first two songs on Volume 1, which he announces are clearly an intentional pair. He then goes on to convey what a genius Brahms was for putting op.48 together from songs that were composed at different times to different poets.

You what is real assholery? Noting that the plural of opus is opera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 04, 2018, 06:37:18 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:20:12 AM
I don't know whether this is unpopular or not around here. But it would be unpopular in a room of music reviewers...

*deep breath*

Graham Johnson might be a decent accompanist, but as a writer of booklet notes for his song series on Hyperion he is an exasperating arsehole.
Relatedly, but perhaps not under the usual rubric of this thread, almost every single jazz album liner note from the 1940s-60s is simply horrible. Maybe 40% of them are written by old white men who are trying to sound cool while they heap praise on the young black artists which, because of the way it's written, doesn't really sound like praise at all, or is remarkably reductive/condescending. Another 40% are highly technical and give no hint that the author takes pleasure in hearing music.

Actually, that last sentence is true in classical music, too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:39:18 AM
Quote from: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 06:37:02 AM
You what is real assholery? Noting that the plural of opus is opera.

What that is, is fake learning where people forget they're speaking English.

Tell me your preferred plural of "octopus" and I'll tell you why it's probably wrong...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 04, 2018, 06:40:42 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:39:18 AM

Tell me your preferred plural of "octopus" and I'll tell you why it's probably wrong...

Octopusses?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 06:41:10 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 04, 2018, 06:37:18 AM
Relatedly, but perhaps not under the usual rubric of this thread, almost every single jazz album liner note from the 1940s-60s is simply horrible. Maybe 40% of them are written by old white men who are trying to sound cool while they heap praise on the young black artists which, because of the way it's written, doesn't really sound like praise at all, or is remarkably reductive/condescending. Another 40% are highly technical and give no hint that the author takes pleasure in hearing music.

Actually, that last sentence is true in classical music, too.

Shameful post.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 06:43:17 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:39:18 AM
What that is, is fake learning where people forget they're speaking English.

Tell me your preferred plural of "octopus" and I'll tell you why it's probably wrong...

Octopera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:45:03 AM
Quote from: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 06:43:17 AM
Octopera.

That's... novel.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 04, 2018, 06:51:18 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:35:02 AM
If you have the complete boxes, most of the arseholery is missing. You need the individual volume booklets, which can be found on the Hyperion website.

I have the Faure series, where he manages to communicate which songs he thinks aren't really worth listening to but he included them in a complete collection, wasn't that nice of him?

But it's the Brahms series that has me seeing red at the moment. Volume 1 will do nicely to illustrate, but I think the first 6 all have the glaring example:

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDJ33121

Each booklet starts with his condescending explanation of why he's right to not group songs together in opuses (the way that the DG and CPO sets of Brahms do). Each booklet is then rife with justifications for grouping songs together, including in opuses.

Starting with the first two songs on Volume 1, which he announces are clearly an intentional pair. He then goes on to convey what a genius Brahms was for putting op.48 together from songs that were composed at different times to different poets.

Ah, yes, now I remember and can see where you're coming from. Yes, splitting songs published as a single opus over several discs under the ridiculous pretext that they were not composed all at the same time is particularly annoying. And the comparison with collected poetry volumes actually only gives the lie to his idea.

Printed poetry collections are as lovingly assembled as an opus of a composer's varied settings, but this does not mean the poems therein are designed to be read aloud from cover to cover: the compiler of these volumes, whether or not the poet himself, would expect items to be selected by the reader according to taste or need. The anthology (or indeed opus number) might be likened to a well-ordered jewel case from which precious items may be extracted for use, depending on the occasion: the wearing in public of every item therein on a single occasion would be both impractical and vulgar. There is little evidence, especially from concert practice of the time (where items from the Schubert and Schumann cycles were often ruthlessly excerpted), that Brahms's publications were conceived within a spirit of cyclic unity that called for an integral performance of the entire group. (emphasis mine)

Well, precisely: just give us the whole opus as it was published and let us extract whatever we want, or even play them all in a row, if we so wish and spare us your arseholery --- indeed, an apt description.

At least in the Schumann box he had the decency not to split the great cycles (for lack of a better word). I once wanted to listen to the Kerner-Lieder and I was relieved to find them all, in order, on a single disc.

But now that I think of it, if you have enough patience you could reassemble the split opuses yourself.  :)

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 04, 2018, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:39:18 AM
Tell me your preferred plural of "octopus" and I'll tell you why it's probably wrong...

Octopussies?  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 04, 2018, 07:02:44 AM
Quote from: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 06:37:02 AM
the plural of opus is opera.

As per Merriam-Webster, opuses can be used as well.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opus (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opus)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 04, 2018, 08:11:39 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 04, 2018, 06:39:18 AM
What that is, is fake learning where people forget they're speaking English.

Tell me your preferred plural of "octopus" and I'll tell you why it's probably wrong...
According to Garner's Modern American Usage:

"Because this word is actually of Greek origin -- not Latin -- the classical plural is octopodes, not octopi. But the standard plural in American and British English is octopuses. Still, some writers mistakenly use the supposed latin plural. Occasionally the pedantical octopodes appears, but it is relatively rare."

However you may wish to temper your enthusiasm for Garner's Modern American Usage after reading this entry from the letter P:

"Pubes (pubic hair) has two syllables, pyoo-beez. It's sometimes mispronounced 'pyoobs'."

Quote from: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 06:41:10 AM
Shameful post.

I do like the booklet where Charles Mingus asked his psychoanalyst to try writing about music. And any where the musicians get to speak for themselves (again a luxury usually only afforded to Mingus).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: North Star on September 04, 2018, 08:19:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 04, 2018, 08:11:39 AM
According to Garner's Modern American Usage:

"Because this word is actually of Greek origin -- not Latin -- the classical plural is octopodes, not octopi. But the standard plural in American and British English is octopuses. Still, some writers mistakenly use the supposed latin plural. Occasionally the pedantical octopodes appears, but it is relatively rare."

However you may wish to temper your enthusiasm for Garner's Modern American Usage after reading this entry from the letter P:

"Pubes (pubic hair) has two syllables, pyoo-beez. It's sometimes mispronounced 'pyoobs'."

I do like the booklet where Charles Mingus asked his psychoanalyst to try writing about music. And any where the musicians get to speak for themselves (again a luxury usually only afforded to Mingus).
Garner's is right on both issues, but of course the frequency of the two-syllable pronunciation of pubis is about the same as the use of the Greek plural form 'octopodes'. And, yeah.. those old jazz liner notes can be painful/funny reading.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 30, 2020, 08:19:41 AM
Let's reboot this thread with a bang!

Sinfonia domestica > Ein Heldenleben
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on September 30, 2020, 08:43:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2020, 08:19:41 AM
Let's reboot this thread with a bang!

Sinfonia domestica > Ein Heldenleben
Last night's electoral debate, and now this!...The end is nigh!  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on September 30, 2020, 12:36:35 PM
The Star Wars Extended Universe (now known as Star Wars Legends) is superior to the Disney reboot and sequel trilogy, but not because it's better written/produced (it isn't) or has more interesting ideas or whatever (it doesn't). It's the sheer unbridled chaos of dozens of writers working to tight deadlines and largely unaware of each other's work that makes it charming. I much prefer a canon where the Death Star has at least four separate origin stories, all dashed off by different writers in limited detail thanks to time constraints, to one where it has a single definitive origin within a streamlined and unified canon.

For the same reason, most fanfiction is superior to canonical sequels within blockbuster, mass-market media franchises. Audience fragmentation is actually good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on September 30, 2020, 12:38:09 PM
On a related note, I'm tired of people trying to finish Mahler's 10th when they could instead be writing Mahler's 11th.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Biffo on October 01, 2020, 02:47:31 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2020, 08:19:41 AM
Let's reboot this thread with a bang!

Sinfonia domestica > Ein Heldenleben

... or possibly Sinfonia domestica just a rehash of Ein Heldenleben with bathwater
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 01, 2020, 03:27:42 AM
Quote from: amw on September 30, 2020, 12:36:35 PM
For the same reason, most fanfiction is superior to canonical sequels within blockbuster, mass-market media franchises.
This sounds like damning with faint praise. I admit that in the early 2000s during the long wait between Harry Potter vols. 5 and 6? I sunk to reading one or two fanfictions. They were more like Bridget Jones novels (of which I have not read any but back in the 1990s I watched "Singles" and "Sleepless in Seattle" which are a bit like US parallels, I guess) with the HP protagonists young professionals in the 20s and entangled in love polygons. Utter trash!

To me Star Wars seems one of the most overrated things in the last 50 years (and as I admitted above I am not beyond enjoying some fantasy/SF, although I prefer books). I am a bit too young to have seen them in the theaters when they came out (some classmates did see Return of the Jedi, I was in 5th grade or so, but I was not that interested and my parents would not have allowed it anyway). When I saw them on TV/video in the 1990s (then in my mid-20s) I found them mildly entertaining but not special at all. I could not be bothered to watch any of the later films. So first I was too young, then too old. It doesn't feel like a great loss.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 01, 2020, 03:23:31 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 01, 2020, 03:27:42 AM
This sounds like damning with faint praise. I admit that in the early 2000s during the long wait between Harry Potter vols. 5 and 6? I sunk to reading one or two fanfictions. They were more like Bridget Jones novels (of which I have not read any but back in the 1990s I watched "Singles" and "Sleepless in Seattle" which are a bit like US parallels, I guess) with the HP protagonists young professionals in the 20s and entangled in love polygons. Utter trash!

To me Star Wars seems one of the most overrated things in the last 50 years (and as I admitted above I am not beyond enjoying some fantasy/SF, although I prefer books). I am a bit too young to have seen them in the theaters when they came out (some classmates did see Return of the Jedi, I was in 5th grade or so, but I was not that interested and my parents would not have allowed it anyway). When I saw them on TV/video in the 1990s (then in my mid-20s) I found them mildly entertaining but not special at all. I could not be bothered to watch any of the later films. So first I was too young, then too old. It doesn't feel like a great loss.
I think Star Wars is a uniquely American pathology in a lot of respects—I'm not aware of any other places in the world it has taken off. Perhaps more specifically an American liberal pathology: the original trilogy was essentially a cultural critique of the Vietnam era with America itself portrayed as the evil "Empire" and the Jedi and Rebels standing in for the Vietcong (at least that's how it was read by American critics). The prequel trilogy, which came out when I was a child/young teenager, was largely read as a broader critique of American materialism and militarism showing how a nominally democratic yet corrupt Galactic Republic became an Empire, with Revenge of the Sith (2005, I was ~13) seen as a repudiation of George W. Bush in particular. So virtually all of the "meanings" of the series only really have resonance for American audiences.

Also (I'm sure this is obvious but) the target audience for all of these films was children and teenagers. For example my main interest in Revenge of the Sith was not the movie itself (which I never watched in full) but the tie-in Lego sets.

I still think even with fanfiction being largely as you describe it, it still ends up being superior to most of the official canonical material, which is meant more as an indictment of the canonical material. For example the later Harry Potter books are bloated, poorly written, poorly edited rehashes of the original book, as it became more a franchise and merchandising opportunity than a genuine creative project, whereas the fanfiction at least shows a certain amount of passion and interest in the premise. Fanfiction is mostly written by and for teenage girls, so there is a strong focus on romance and sex (due to teenage girls being what they are); I remember after Revenge of the Sith came out there were a large number of fans who thought the canonical romance between Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman was poorly written, and therefore rewrote the trilogy in order to instead pair up Hayden Christensen with Ewan MacGregor. That's roughly the equivalent of writing your own coda to Prokofiev 7, which I also think is valid.

In general though yes you're not missing anything. But I think that's a fairly popular opinion, these days....
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 01, 2020, 03:43:31 PM
Anyway here's a musical opinion: the two-piano version of Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances is far superior to the orchestral version.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 01, 2020, 04:46:50 PM
Quote from: amw on October 01, 2020, 03:43:31 PM
Anyway here's a musical opinion: the two-piano version of Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances is far superior to the orchestral version.
I got a CD of the Ashkenazy-Previn version and maybe it's just the pressing/mastering, but between the super rickety pianos and exaggerated stereo separation, it sounds like the engineers found out about stereo that very morning, and is just the most ridiculously exciting thing. Really blew the dust out of my ears.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Biffo on October 02, 2020, 01:51:28 AM
Quote from: amw on October 01, 2020, 03:43:31 PM
Anyway here's a musical opinion: the two-piano version of Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances is far superior to the orchestral version.

I prefer the two-piano version but wouldn't say it is 'far superior'
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 01:59:01 AM
I am not familiar enough with the Rachmaninov (esp. not the piano version) but in the case of Brahms' Hungarian dances I clearly prefer the piano (NOT in the case of the f minor quintet/sonata or the Haydn variations although I could concede that the piano versions are relatively underappreciated) whereas in the case of Dvoraks Slavonic dances I like the orchestral version much better. (This is probably a common, not unpopular opinion.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 02:21:28 AM
Where are the opinions supposed to be unpopular, on GMG or in the world at large? Sometimes the two categories are polar opposites.   ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 02, 2020, 05:16:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 01:59:01 AMin the case of Brahms' Hungarian dances I clearly prefer the piano
Any love for piano-violin arrangements by e.g. Joachim?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: BWV 1080 on October 02, 2020, 05:23:54 AM
Schubert is boring
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 02, 2020, 05:38:32 AM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on October 02, 2020, 05:23:54 AM
Schubert is boring
You win.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 05:51:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 02, 2020, 05:16:23 AM
Any love for piano-violin arrangements by e.g. Joachim?
I own a disc of them (whereas I do not have a complete recording of the orchestral version atm) but I cannot say that I am familiar with these versions. Historically they could be closer to the source material or at least to what Brahms might have played with or heard from Remenyi as a very young man. Probably listened to them once or twice and not sure how impressed I was. In either shape it's music I like when I am listening to it but admittedly do not put on that often.
I am very inconsistent about arrangements/alternative versions. I am more open to them with "lighter" music like these dances but I also used to prefer some of Bach's organ pieces for orchestra or piano. This has changed with a deeper appreciation of the organ (still not a really avid fan of the instrument).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 02, 2020, 07:18:00 AM
Sibelius' symphonies 1 and 2 are greater than nos. 3-6.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kyjo on October 02, 2020, 08:14:50 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 02, 2020, 07:18:00 AM
Sibelius' symphonies 1 and 2 are greater than nos. 3-6.

I'm tempted to agree though 3 and 6 are very close to my heart as well. 4 remains rather inscrutable for me, but, then again, I don't really care much for dark, depressing music these days. I enjoy 5 but don't think the first two movements are among Sibelius' finest. The finale is, of course, incredible!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kyjo on October 02, 2020, 08:16:18 AM
Berlioz's Les nuits d'été is one of the most boring, turgid, lifeless pieces of music I've ever heard. It came on the radio recently while I was driving and I almost fell asleep at the wheel!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 09:53:03 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 02, 2020, 05:38:32 AM
You win.

By a large margin, that is.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 10:43:36 AM
Chopin is the most original, interesting and influential composer of his generation.

Except S1 and S4, Bruckner's symphonies are the epitome of boredom and turgidity.

Beethoven is not the culminating point of Viennese Classicism, but its destroyer. The VC trinity should read Haydn, Boccherini, Mozart (in chronological order).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 02, 2020, 10:50:36 AM
Quote from: amw on September 30, 2020, 12:36:35 PM
The Star Wars Extended Universe (now known as Star Wars Legends) is superior to the Disney reboot and sequel trilogy, but not because it's better written/produced (it isn't) or has more interesting ideas or whatever (it doesn't). It's the sheer unbridled chaos of dozens of writers working to tight deadlines and largely unaware of each other's work that makes it charming. I much prefer a canon where the Death Star has at least four separate origin stories, all dashed off by different writers in limited detail thanks to time constraints, to one where it has a single definitive origin within a streamlined and unified canon.

For the same reason, most fanfiction is superior to canonical sequels within blockbuster, mass-market media franchises. Audience fragmentation is actually good.

I enjoyed that, thanks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 02, 2020, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 01, 2020, 03:27:42 AM
This sounds like damning with faint praise. I admit that in the early 2000s during the long wait between Harry Potter vols. 5 and 6? I sunk to reading one or two fanfictions. They were more like Bridget Jones novels (of which I have not read any but back in the 1990s I watched "Singles" and "Sleepless in Seattle" which are a bit like US parallels, I guess) with the HP protagonists young professionals in the 20s and entangled in love polygons. Utter trash!

To me Star Wars seems one of the most overrated things in the last 50 years (and as I admitted above I am not beyond enjoying some fantasy/SF, although I prefer books). I am a bit too young to have seen them in the theaters when they came out (some classmates did see Return of the Jedi, I was in 5th grade or so, but I was not that interested and my parents would not have allowed it anyway). When I saw them on TV/video in the 1990s (then in my mid-20s) I found them mildly entertaining but not special at all. I could not be bothered to watch any of the later films. So first I was too young, then too old. It doesn't feel like a great loss.

I think "mildly entertaining but not special at all" is fair. The first one was quite a cause célèbre on its release, and was arguably of some cinematic importance, but that candle's long burnt out. I watch the first three now and again, partly out of harmless nostalgia (I did see them all in the cinema, when each opened) partly for undemanding fun.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 02, 2020, 11:10:10 AM
One of my brothers had never seen any Star Wars movie. We watched the first one together maybe two years ago. It did nothing for him.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 11:26:14 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 10:43:36 AM
Except S1 and S4, Bruckner's symphonies are the epitome of boredom and turgidity.
I still find #4 that used to be the most popular and probably still is in the top three (after 7 and 8) the most overrated Bruckner symphony. I don't dislike Bruckner and the one time I experienced the 8th in live concert it was very impressive but I think that the last 30 year have tended to sanctify Bruckner in a way that was restricted to some hardcore fans in the time before that. It's good to have Bruckner regularly but it was also somewhat justified to put him in a niche

Quote
Beethoven is not the culminating point of Viennese Classicism, but its destroyer. The VC trinity should read Haydn, Boccherini, Mozart (in chronological order).
Beethoven was sui generis although still part of Viennese Classicism. In doubt I go with culmination of that style (together with instrumental Schubert) because it seems utterly wrong to see Beethoven's and Schubert's mature works as transitional or as tentative beginnings of a new period.* Probably the main problem here is simplified or any periodization.

*I find Grillparzer in his funeral oration fits well:
"Wie der Behemot die Meere durchstürmt, so durchflog er die Grenzen seiner Kunst. Vom Girren der Taube bis zum Rollen des Donners, von der spitzfindigsten Verwebung eigensinniger Kunstmittel bis zu dem furchtbaren Punkt, wo das Gebildete übergeht in die regellose Willkür streitender Naturgewalten, alles hatte er durchmessen, alles erfaßt. Der nach ihm kommt, wird nicht fortsetzen, er wird anfangen müssen, denn sein Vorgänger hörte nur auf, wo die Kunst aufhört."

"As the Behemoth parts the waves, he flew through the boundaries of his art. From the cooing of the dove to the rolling thunder, from the most intricate weaving of original means of art to the tremendous point where shaped material turns into the unruly caprice of competing forces of nature, he has encompassed everything. Whoever comes after him, cannot continue, he will have to begin anew because his predecessors only finished where the art ends."
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 11:29:16 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 11:10:10 AM
One of my brothers had never seen any Star Wars movie. We watched the first one together maybe two years ago. It did nothing for him.
I think I watched "The return of the Jedi" first when I was studying in the US in 1995/96 and I had admitted to a friend there that I had never seen any star wars, so he insisted this had to be amended. I do not remember why the last (back then) movie was put on as his parents had a whole wall of shelves with videotapes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 02, 2020, 12:00:17 PM
My opinion on Bruckner is that he is conducted much too slowly by everyone, and that the 6th symphony should be over in under 50 minutes, the 7th symphony in about 52 (15', 18-19', 7:30ish, and a bit over 10'). The 3rd probably should be much faster in most recordings, but at least we have the Szell recording, which is perfect.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 12:08:04 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 11:26:14 AM
*I find Grillparzer in his funeral oration fits well:
"Wie der Behemot die Meere durchstürmt, so durchflog er die Grenzen seiner Kunst. Vom Girren der Taube bis zum Rollen des Donners, von der spitzfindigsten Verwebung eigensinniger Kunstmittel bis zu dem furchtbaren Punkt, wo das Gebildete übergeht in die regellose Willkür streitender Naturgewalten, alles hatte er durchmessen, alles erfaßt. Der nach ihm kommt, wird nicht fortsetzen, er wird anfangen müssen, denn sein Vorgänger hörte nur auf, wo die Kunst aufhört."

"As the Behemoth parts the waves, he flew through the boundaries of his art. From the cooing of the dove to the rolling thunder, from the most intricate weaving of original means of art to the tremendous point where shaped material turns into the unruly caprice of competing forces of nature, he has encompassed everything. Whoever comes after him, cannot continue, he will have to begin anew because his predecessors only finished where the art ends."

I don't get the bolded part. Whom does "his" refer to: Beethoven, or "whoever comes after him"? And what does it mean "his predecessors only finished where the art ends"? Makes no sense at all to me, honestly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 02, 2020, 11:43:57 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 10:43:36 AM
Chopin is the most original, interesting and influential composer of his generation.

Ah well, if this is unpopular, I don't want to conform.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 03, 2020, 12:13:23 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 12:08:04 PM
I don't get the bolded part. Whom does "his" refer to: Beethoven, or "whoever comes after him"? And what does it mean "his predecessors only finished where the art ends"? Makes no sense at all to me, honestly.
Sorry, this was a simple typo. Predecessor [of the ones who come after him] = Beethoven, not plural. Everybody after Beethoven has to be very innovative because Beethoven exhausted the contemporary art of music. I think that this is to some extent corroborated by several composers of the 1830s and 40s. Chopin basically ignored Beethoven. Berlioz, Liszt, Schumann and Mendelssohn could not entirely ignore him but at least the first three have important works that are also "evading" Beethoven. Berlioz took Beethoven's symphonies as point of departure but with lots of opera, choral music and a much stronger programmatic content in his symphonic works, he is also very different. Liszt stuck to piano pieces (mostly not sonatas) for the first part of his career, Schumann also began with "free" piano pieces but then took up the burden of following up Beethovenian symphonies and quartets. Mendelssohn was classicist throughout and wrote some (early) pieces rather close to Beethoven (early string quartets and piano sonatas) but did also some evasion, with e.g. the violin concerto or the Italian symphony being very different from Beethoven and a lot of his stlye is informed more by Bach, Handel, Mozart than Beethoven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Irons on October 03, 2020, 12:37:31 AM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on October 02, 2020, 05:23:54 AM
Schubert is boring

That is what the thread should be about. I think a good idea by the way (the thread not Schubert).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 03, 2020, 12:47:50 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 03, 2020, 12:13:23 AM
Sorry, this was a simple typo. Predecessor [of the ones who come after him] = Beethoven, not plural. Everybody after Beethoven has to be very innovative because Beethoven exhausted the contemporary art of music. I think that this is to some extent corroborated by several composers of the 1830s and 40s. Chopin basically ignored Beethoven. Berlioz, Liszt, Schumann and Mendelssohn could not entirely ignore him but at least the first three have important works that are also "evading" Beethoven. Berlioz took Beethoven's symphonies as point of departure but with lots of opera, choral music and a much stronger programmatic content in his symphonic works, he is also very different. Liszt stuck to piano pieces (mostly not sonatas) for the first part of his career, Schumann also began with "free" piano pieces but then took up the burden of following up Beethovenian symphonies and quartets. Mendelssohn was classicist throughout and wrote some (early) pieces rather close to Beethoven (early string quartets and piano sonatas) but did also some evasion, with e.g. the violin concerto or the Italian symphony being very different from Beethoven and a lot of his stlye is informed more by Bach, Handel, Mozart than Beethoven.

Mendelssohn is arguably the only contemporary composer who actually understood and absorbed Beethoven's late works (as displayed in his own early string quartets & sonatas) and thus is the most direct line of influence deriving from Beethoven. He understood Beethoven's late work as neoclassical or "neo-baroque" in a sense, looking back to Mozart/Bach/Handel, as well as the experimentation with cyclical form, and made these the focus of virtually all of his work. After his death, the only subsequent "Beethovenian" in the same sense, in the nineteenth century, was probably Cesar Franck. Everyone else (even Brahms to a great extent) followed the Mozart-Schubert or Mozart-Chopin paths of influence that sidelined Beethoven and his work. Schumann's quartets are not "Beethovenian" for example, although op. 41 no. 3 is "Mendelssohnian" in its first movement and therefore Beethoven-derived. Otherwise they are mostly Schubertian, and the same with his symphonies. Brahms's First makes a conscious attempt to emulate Beethoven without being compositionally anything like Beethoven; it's a Mendelssohn-Schubert hybrid created in an attempt to give the symphonic genre the weight and gravitas Brahms thought it had in Beethoven's day. (Which it did not. It was a festive orchestral showpiece for the public. Even Beethoven's 9th was an essentially popular, "middle-period" work, without most of the musical and technical difficulties of his late quartets etc. The Symphony™ as an elite intellectual genre therefore is essentially Brahms's own invention.)

In the twentieth century the closest we get to a "Beethovenian" would be Béla Bartók, but the materials of music had changed significantly by that point.

Otherwise Beethoven actually had almost no influence on music history, and if he were removed from it, the works of most subsequent composers would be largely unaffected. (The same is true of, e.g., JS Bach, Handel, Scarlatti.) Mozart and CPE Bach on the other hand are keystones, without whom music history post 1800 would make almost no sense, and the same is true of, e.g., Rossini, Chopin, Schubert. And the reception of music would be very different—but probably better—without Beethoven.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 03, 2020, 01:04:37 AM
You can hardly deny that the "through night to light" model of Beethoven's 5th and the cyclic recurrence were strong influences. This is admittedly not the deeper nuts and bolts of compositional art but nevertheless quite important. Schumann also has near quotations or clear allusions to Beethoven in many pieces, again not a deep compositional structural aspect but not negligible either.
And I think you make too much of the opposition between "festive orchestral showpiece" and gravitas. I don't think that was exclusionary in Beethoven's time. If one looks at contemporary comments about Haydn's London symphonies both aspects are clearly seen as united. There are phrases like "entertainment of the most sublime grandeur" (or so, I am making this particular one up).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 03, 2020, 01:40:05 AM
You are probably technically right, but this is the Unpopular Opinions thread after all so I feel obliged to disagree.

I think what later composers of symphonies were aiming at was music perceived to have great intellectual rigour and be only comprehensible to an educated elite etc. which was essentially based on how the late Beethoven quartets were received (though these are not a perfect match either). It is true that symphonies by the 1790s or so were seen as sublime and great as well as accessible and popular; these things were not really in opposition at the time. Until the 1830s I don't think there was even much of a conception of a genre of music that was purposefully too "learned" for the general public to understand, but then of course the "general public" itself had only come into existence around 1750 or so, and prior to that there were plenty of learned genres for music lovers (fugue, ricercar etc) as distinct from everything else.

I think the Beethoven aesthetic of darkness to light and so on was a very superficial influence, and one Beethoven himself probably borrowed from opera and oratorio; it would have made its way into instrumental music anyway, with or without him. But in general yes, the romantics liked the aesthetic of Beethoven without having much interest in how Beethoven actually composed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Biffo on October 03, 2020, 01:50:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 11:10:10 AM
One of my brothers had never seen any Star Wars movie. We watched the first one together maybe two years ago. It did nothing for him.

I watched the middle half of Star Wars on a hotel television, probably not the best medium, some 40 years ago. I have never felt drawn to watch any more.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: SimonNZ on October 03, 2020, 03:21:20 AM
Robert Frost's long poems are better than his short poems.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 03, 2020, 07:09:10 AM
Quote from: kyjo on October 02, 2020, 08:16:18 AM
Berlioz's Les nuits d'été is one of the most boring, turgid, lifeless pieces of music I've ever heard. It came on the radio recently while I was driving and I almost fell asleep at the wheel!

When soft music can get dangerous.  :o ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 03, 2020, 07:17:19 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 10:43:36 AM
Chopin is the most original, interesting and influential composer of his generation.

Except S1 and S4, Bruckner's symphonies are the epitome of boredom and turgidity.

You're doing it well!  ;D

As for the Bruckner statement, I can understand it because you seem more drawn to small-scale pieces than large musical structures.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 09:35:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 03, 2020, 12:13:23 AM
Sorry, this was a simple typo. Predecessor [of the ones who come after him] = Beethoven, not plural. Everybody after Beethoven has to be very innovative because Beethoven exhausted the contemporary art of music. I think that this is to some extent corroborated by several composers of the 1830s and 40s. Chopin basically ignored Beethoven. Berlioz, Liszt, Schumann and Mendelssohn could not entirely ignore him but at least the first three have important works that are also "evading" Beethoven. Berlioz took Beethoven's symphonies as point of departure but with lots of opera, choral music and a much stronger programmatic content in his symphonic works, he is also very different. Liszt stuck to piano pieces (mostly not sonatas) for the first part of his career, Schumann also began with "free" piano pieces but then took up the burden of following up Beethovenian symphonies and quartets. Mendelssohn was classicist throughout and wrote some (early) pieces rather close to Beethoven (early string quartets and piano sonatas) but did also some evasion, with e.g. the violin concerto or the Italian symphony being very different from Beethoven and a lot of his stlye is informed more by Bach, Handel, Mozart than Beethoven.

Quote from: amw on October 03, 2020, 12:47:50 AM
Mendelssohn is arguably the only contemporary composer who actually understood and absorbed Beethoven's late works (as displayed in his own early string quartets & sonatas) and thus is the most direct line of influence deriving from Beethoven. He understood Beethoven's late work as neoclassical or "neo-baroque" in a sense, looking back to Mozart/Bach/Handel, as well as the experimentation with cyclical form, and made these the focus of virtually all of his work. After his death, the only subsequent "Beethovenian" in the same sense, in the nineteenth century, was probably Cesar Franck. Everyone else (even Brahms to a great extent) followed the Mozart-Schubert or Mozart-Chopin paths of influence that sidelined Beethoven and his work. Schumann's quartets are not "Beethovenian" for example, although op. 41 no. 3 is "Mendelssohnian" in its first movement and therefore Beethoven-derived. Otherwise they are mostly Schubertian, and the same with his symphonies. Brahms's First makes a conscious attempt to emulate Beethoven without being compositionally anything like Beethoven; it's a Mendelssohn-Schubert hybrid created in an attempt to give the symphonic genre the weight and gravitas Brahms thought it had in Beethoven's day. (Which it did not. It was a festive orchestral showpiece for the public. Even Beethoven's 9th was an essentially popular, "middle-period" work, without most of the musical and technical difficulties of his late quartets etc. The Symphony™ as an elite intellectual genre therefore is essentially Brahms's own invention.)

In the twentieth century the closest we get to a "Beethovenian" would be Béla Bartók, but the materials of music had changed significantly by that point.

Otherwise Beethoven actually had almost no influence on music history, and if he were removed from it, the works of most subsequent composers would be largely unaffected. (The same is true of, e.g., JS Bach, Handel, Scarlatti.) Mozart and CPE Bach on the other hand are keystones, without whom music history post 1800 would make almost no sense, and the same is true of, e.g., Rossini, Chopin, Schubert. And the reception of music would be very different—but probably better—without Beethoven.

That's exactly why Chopin is the most original, interesting and influential composer of his generation, which included Schumann and Mendelssohn. Unlike the latter two, he never succumbed to Beethovenism. And paradoxically for someone who so deeply hated "the Muscovites", his legacy in terms of musical esthetics was cherished and carried on mainly by Russians.

TD: the culmination point of Viennese Classicism is Brahms.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 09:45:31 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 03, 2020, 07:17:19 AM
You're doing it well!  ;D

As for the Bruckner statement, I can understand it because you seem more drawn to small-scale pieces than large musical structures.

While it's true that I prefer solo piano or chamber music to orchestral music, I have no problem with Mahler. Actually, my favorite Mahler symphony is the Third, that is almost two hours of music. But while M3 has very few, if any, dull moments, Bruckner's entire output has very few, if any, interesting moments.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 04, 2020, 09:56:50 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 02, 2020, 11:43:57 PM
Ah well, if this is unpopular, I don't want to conform.

Overall, I think it a poorly thought post (for this thread)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 05, 2020, 03:34:40 AM
Shostakovich string quartet no.12 is better than Beethoven string quartet no.12.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 06, 2020, 11:42:00 AM
Tchaikovsky was a better tunesmith than Rachmaninov.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 06, 2020, 10:07:08 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 06, 2020, 11:42:00 AM
Tchaikovsky was a better tunesmith than Rachmaninov.

Well, he composed  much more than Raxhmaninoff so he has much more tunes. This might indeed give the impression that he was a better tunesmith but I'd say that the pupil was more than worth of his teacher.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 06, 2020, 10:09:27 PM
Well, I mean, if tunes are what you're into...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 06, 2020, 10:14:59 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 06, 2020, 10:09:27 PM
Well, I mean, if tunes are what you're into...

Melody is the essence of music. The guy who claimed this had no idea about this thread but his statement fits quite well here.  :)












Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 06, 2020, 10:18:29 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 06, 2020, 10:14:59 PM
Melody is the essence of music. The guy who claimed this had no idea about this thread but his statement fits quite well here.  :)

What is melody, is it synonymous with "tune", etc. etc.

Instrumental music that you can actually sing along to is a bit... limited. Give me things a voice couldn't do.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 06, 2020, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 06, 2020, 10:18:29 PM
What is melody, is it synonymous with "tune", etc. etc.

Instrumental music that you can actually sing along to is a bit... limited. Give me things a voice couldn't do.

There is this other guy who claimed that

11- It is not only necessary that you should be able to play your pieces on the instrument, but you should also be able to hum the air without the piano. Strengthen your imagination so, that you may not only retain the melody of a composition, but even the harmony which belongs to it.

12- Endeavour, even with a poor voice, to sing at first sight without the aid of the instrument; by these means your ear for music will constantly improve.






Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 06, 2020, 10:47:03 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 06, 2020, 10:29:10 PM
There is this other guy who claimed that

11- It is not only necessary that you should be able to play your pieces on the instrument, but you should also be able to hum the air without the piano. Strengthen your imagination so, that you may not only retain the melody of a composition, but even the harmony which belongs to it.

12- Endeavour, even with a poor voice, to sing at first sight without the aid of the instrument; by these means your ear for music will constantly improve.


Given that my piano has a range that is a hell of a lot wider than my voice, this other guy needs to work on his theory. Neither Rachmaninov nor Chopin would have been constrained to writing piano music that a voice could hum.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 06, 2020, 10:54:55 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 06, 2020, 10:47:03 PM
Given that my piano has a range that is a hell of a lot wider than my voice, this other guy needs to work on his theory.

Well, he said "even with a poor voice". But perhaps you're right, he was never good at theory, though he had some idea about piano playing and singing. His name was Robert Schumann.

Quote
Neither Rachmaninov nor Chopin would have been constrained to writing piano music that a voice could hum.

True,  but the funny thing is that many of the former's and most of the latter's piano pieces can be hummed.  Given the former's love for Orthodox chant and the latter's love for belcanto, it's nothing surprising actually. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 06, 2020, 11:10:43 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 06, 2020, 11:42:00 AM
Tchaikovsky was a better tunesmith than Rachmaninov.
Hardly unpopular, although I admittedly know far more Tchaikovsky than Rachmaninov. Spontaneously I can think of 2-3 famous tunes by the latter and about 100 by the former. Although PIT is not immune against repeating some folksong to death with trivial variations (finale of the 2nd symphony, IIRC).
And Rachmaninov overused the Dies irae which is a great motive but if he had had too many tunes of his own, he would hardly have used the Dies irae in every other piece.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 06, 2020, 11:31:22 PM
I agree, that opinion is much too popular. I'll throw in a somewhat more unpopular one: Shostakovich was a better tunesmith than Tchaikovsky. (At least when he actually wrote tunes instead of just 4 note motifs)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 01:56:17 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 06, 2020, 10:54:55 PM
Well, he said "even with a poor voice". But perhaps you're right, he was never good at theory, though he had some idea about piano playing and singing. His name was Robert Schumann.

Oh, what a surprise. Here's an opinion: either Schumann was wrong or you've taken him out of context.

Chopin didn't think much of Schumann's music of course...

EDIT: This is not singable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT_q5d84cVY
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 03:11:14 AM
This unpopular opinion was in fact already a subject of discussion on this thread some years ago, but what the heck:

The Grosse Fugue should be kept out of Beethoven's op.130 quartet.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 03:55:15 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 01:56:17 AM
Oh, what a surprise. Here's an opinion: either Schumann was wrong or you've taken him out of context.

You can read the whole thing here, for context:

http://waltercosand.com/CosandScores/Composers%20Q-Z/Schumann,%20Robert/Books/Advice%20to%20Young%20Musicians(Eng).pdf (http://waltercosand.com/CosandScores/Composers%20Q-Z/Schumann,%20Robert/Books/Advice%20to%20Young%20Musicians(Eng).pdf)

I'm not saying he's right or wrong. I just registered his opinion because it seemed to me to fit in this thread.

QuoteChopin didn't think much of Schumann's music of course...

Yes, that's true. He was in love with Bach, Mozart* and belcanto instead.

*the guy who claimed that "melody is the essence of music".

Quote
EDIT: This is not singable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT_q5d84cVY

Funny and interesting how different people can hear the same music so differently. To my ears, Vogel als Prophet is one of the most songlike and cantabile piano works ever penned, and of all the performances out there you chose one of the most songlike and cantabile to illustrate the point that it's actually not singable.  :)

For me, this is not singable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMM6h9Yf348 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMM6h9Yf348)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 03:56:53 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 03:11:14 AM
This unpopular opinion was in fact already a subject of discussion on this thread some years ago, but what the heck:

The Grosse Fugue should be kept out of Beethoven's op.130 quartet.

Yes, I'm with you on this one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 04:40:33 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 03:55:15 AM
Funny and interesting how different people can hear the same music so differently. To my ears, Vogel als Prophet is one of the most songlike and cantabile piano works ever penned, and of all the performances out there you chose one of the most songlike and cantabile to illustrate the point that it's actually not singable.  :)

For me, this is not singable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMM6h9Yf348 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMM6h9Yf348)

I didn't say that it wasn't songlike or cantabile. I said it wasn't singable. You're talking about character of the music. I'm talking about what is actually physically possible.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 04:52:56 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 04:40:33 AM
I didn't say that it wasn't songlike or cantabile. I said it wasn't singable. You're talking about character of the music. I'm talking about what is actually physically possible.

Do you think that it's physically impossible to vocalise Vogel als Prophet?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 07, 2020, 05:10:10 AM
I am pretty neutral wrt op.133 vs. Rondo as Finale. But nowadays the Rondo-finale really seems to have become an endangered exemplar that is far less performed than the fugue (despite writers of notes still seeming to believe that even more than half a century of fugue-domination the fugue as finale still needs an apology). And obviously the Rondo does not really have a reasonable place as a separate piece whereas the fugue does.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 02:12:45 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 04:52:56 AM
Do you think that it's physically impossible to vocalise Vogel als Prophet?

Well, it's always possible to try but the results will be clumsy at best.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 07, 2020, 05:03:42 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 02:12:45 PM
Well, it's always possible to try but the results will be clumsy at best.
You would need at least a three octave range. Most professional singers don't have that much.

It's a melody conceived entirely for the capacities of the piano and how it's played. Potentially a violin or flute could also do it. And some species of bird (including, presumably, prophetic ones). Not the human voice though—which is fine. Schumann's advice was anyway directed more at musicians in training who were trying to learn to compose; presumably once you have learned and understand the capabilities of whatever instruments or singers you are writing for you don't have to limit yourself to writing what you can personally vocalise.

This is still a common exercise in composition classes: write something for yourself (or your fellow students) to sing. It's a fairly useful one, at least more useful to me personally than the exercises that require you to only use certain intervals or pitch classes etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 09:21:15 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 02:12:45 PM
Well, it's always possible to try but the results will be clumsy at best.

These guys would do it quite well, methinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RkF65K6SdY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RkF65K6SdY)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZiPtsudyoo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZiPtsudyoo)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on October 07, 2020, 11:43:36 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 09:21:15 PM
These guys would do it quite well, methinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RkF65K6SdY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RkF65K6SdY)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZiPtsudyoo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZiPtsudyoo)

https://www.youtube.com/v/VKcAYMb5uk4
;D

Good day to you, Andrei!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 07, 2020, 11:59:22 PM
Quote from: ritter on October 07, 2020, 11:43:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/VKcAYMb5uk4
;D

Good day to you, Andrei!

Good day, Rafael! You didn't like the videos, I presume?  :D

I enjoyed them very much, several times in a row each. The Barber of Seville is hilarious even visually, their rapidly swifting facial expressions put a big smile on my face.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 22, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Performances with old instruments (HIPs) are awful, soulless and insipid most of times.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 11:35:49 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 22, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Performances with old instruments (HIPs) are awful, soulless and insipid most of times.

I have never perceived a Stradivari or Guarnieri (old instruments) as soulless and insipid.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 22, 2020, 05:44:43 PM
Idk that I'd call most HIP performances awful or insipid or unlistenable but the string players.... not sure if it's just inherent to the difficulty of trying to play in unequal temperament when you've grown up and been socialised in an equal tempered society but so many of them just have terrible intonation. Like every album I know about from the Schuppanzigh Quartet, or Jaap Schröder, or the Kuijken Quartet & its eponymous first violinist, or the Festetics Quartet, among the high profile examples I can think of, is full of long stretches of misjudged intervals and out of tune high notes. I still find these recordings listenable but if I'm being honest not as much so as more equal-tempered "HIP style" recordings. (Or groups like the Quatuor Mosaiques that play in something closer to equal temperament but on period instruments.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 22, 2020, 06:29:32 PM
It might also be that the strings themselves are harder to play.

It's one of the slightly curious things about insisting on going back to whatever was around at the time, you're also often giving up technological improvements in the instruments that people worked very, very hard to achieve.

And I think it was Shostakovich that wrote something for an instrument and complained that the instrument wasn't really up to what he wanted, and hoped that one day someone would build a better version that could better cope with the music. Just as well he got that titbit recorded, otherwise in another century there'd be folk insisting on historical Shostakovich performance practice...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 23, 2020, 01:34:07 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 22, 2020, 06:29:32 PM
And I think it was Shostakovich that wrote something for an instrument and complained that the instrument wasn't really up to what he wanted, and hoped that one day someone would build a better version that could better cope with the music. Just as well he got that titbit recorded, otherwise in another century there'd be folk insisting on historical Shostakovich performance practice...

;D

I recently came across a recording of Brahms' serenades by Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra. Seems rather incongruous to me.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on October 23, 2020, 01:47:26 AM
Quote from: amw on October 22, 2020, 05:44:43 PM
Idk that I'd call most HIP performances awful or insipid or unlistenable but the string players.... not sure if it's just inherent to the difficulty of trying to play in unequal temperament when you've grown up and been socialised in an equal tempered society but so many of them just have terrible intonation. Like every album I know about from the Schuppanzigh Quartet, or Jaap Schröder, or the Kuijken Quartet & its eponymous first violinist, or the Festetics Quartet, among the high profile examples I can think of, is full of long stretches of misjudged intervals and out of tune high notes. I still find these recordings listenable but if I'm being honest not as much so as more equal-tempered "HIP style" recordings. (Or groups like the Quatuor Mosaiques that play in something closer to equal temperament but on period instruments.)

I'm one of those, who tend to find HIP recordings often disappointing too. Besides intonations or instrumental or ensemble "thinness", it can also be the light-footed, relentless tempi, at times even avoiding any relaxation/meditation on the way. I find that there are quite a lot of examples, say in Mozart, where the music is reduced to harmless, even childish 'toy music'. Or in Bach, it can become just a machinery, even 'typewriter' thing. But there are of course also recordings that can be fascinating to listen to, or that discover new facets of work, that can be interesting and captivating. Pommer's Brandenburgs for example, in the 1st concerto (from the late 80s), where the massive brass, not terribly integrated but festive, was still something I'd never hard before, & quite liked. From what I understand, Pommer does overall tend to apply HIP to performance concepts, rather than the instrumental ressources, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:29:21 AM
Late Romanticism is hugely overrated.





Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:30:15 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:29:21 AM
Late Romanticism is hugely overrated.


By whom?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:36:26 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:30:15 AM

By whom?

By many.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:37:31 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:36:26 AM
By many.


A lot of people are saying.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:44:10 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:37:31 AM

A lot of people are saying.

Isn't it what we all do here, saying this or that?

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:51:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:44:10 AM
Isn't it what we all do here, saying this or that?


True, but the assertion that many people hugely overrate late romanticism on a board with only a few dozen active posters is dubious. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:58:30 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:51:41 AM

True, but the assertion that many people hugely overrate late romanticism on a board with only a few dozen active posters is dubious.

Oh, okay. Let me reformulate: Late Romanticism is hugely overrated by many GMGers. Better?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on October 24, 2020, 08:00:37 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:58:30 AM
Oh, okay. Let me reformulate: Late Romanticism is hugely overrated by many GMGers. Better?


Not really. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 08:06:34 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 08:00:37 AM

Not really.

Please tell me why I'm wrong. If you have a little time to waste, of course. If not, not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on October 24, 2020, 08:16:28 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 08:06:34 AM
Please tell me why I'm wrong. If you have a little time to waste, of course. If not, not.


I've never seen evidence on this forum that late romanticism is overrated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 10:17:33 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 08:16:28 AM

I've never seen evidence on this forum that late romanticism is overrated.

Replace "overrated" with "more frequently listened to than any other era in the history of Western music". If still dissatisfied, I can't help it: this is my impression and hence my unopular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 24, 2020, 10:40:59 AM
It depends what you mean with late romanticism. ca. Brahms to Mahler or later. The main too-late-romantic that seems overly popular to me is Rachmaninoff. And maybe Richard Strauss, but the latter is a somewhat special case, he was on top of his era until ca. WW 1 and except for a few operas not too many people care about, some Lieder and Metamorphosen all of his major works are earlier.
Of others born in the 1870-90 and still sticking to romanticism like Schmidt, Korngold etc. some have had (usually minor) revivals but don't seem overly popular.
As for ca. 1870-1910 romantic music (disregarding the impressionist and early modern pieces from the time) it is obviously hugely popular, not only in this forum. Especially orchestral music and this is not surprising because together with slightly later music (Ravel, Debussy, early Stravinsky, Prokofiev...) it's where orchestras can shine in all their departments and it is not too modern or otherwise overtaxing for the listener.
But I don't think this periods dominates e.g. solo piano, chamber or vocal music. Opera has many pieces from that time but also Mozart, Belcanto, earlier Verdi etc. For piano Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann and Liszt, all of which are earlier certainly dominate Brahms, Rachmaninoff or Scriabin.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:06:07 AM
My impression is that music written between 1880 and 1914 is way more popular on GMG than music written between 1780 and 1814. I might be wrong, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 24, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:06:07 AM
My impression is that music written between 1880 and 1914 is way more popular on GMG than music written between 1780 and 1814. I might be wrong, though.

You're probably not wrong, but there's probably also a lot more music available from later. Various changes in technology and culture mean it becomes easier to circulate music the later you get...

To the point where nowadays all you need is a phone in your bedroom to upload your latest masterpiece to YouTube, though at that point you have a different problem of so much music circulating that it becomes difficult to notice anything in particular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:47:57 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 24, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
You're probably not wrong, but there's probably also a lot more music available from later. Various changes in technology and culture mean it becomes easier to circulate music the later you get...

To the point where nowadays all you need is a phone in your bedroom to upload your latest masterpiece to YouTube, though at that point you have a different problem of so much music circulating that it becomes difficult to notice anything in particular.

I'm not talking about general availability. I'm talking about GMG only: my impression is that music written between 1880 and 1914 is way more popular on GMG than music written between 1780 and 1814. I might be wrong, though.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 24, 2020, 05:01:02 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:47:57 PM
I'm not talking about general availability. I'm talking about GMG only: my impression is that music written between 1880 and 1914 is way more popular on GMG than music written between 1780 and 1814. I might be wrong, though.
Depends on whether Mirror Image is posting or not ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 24, 2020, 05:57:01 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:47:57 PM
I'm not talking about general availability. I'm talking about GMG only: my impression is that music written between 1880 and 1914 is way more popular on GMG than music written between 1780 and 1814. I might be wrong, though.

And I'm talking about how people on GMG find out about music and the names of composers. If you're trying to argue that somehow GMG is out of step with the general classical music listening population, then I think you're wrong. People on GMG listen to more music from 1880-1914 than they do from 1780-1814 because there's a much wider range of music and composers generally available from one era than the other. Not because GMG somehow attracted late Romantic fetishists.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 25, 2020, 12:34:33 AM
I was not referring to GMG; except for the relative neglect of vocal music, especially opera (which is understandable because there are separate fora for opera) and a few odds (like niche 20th century composers such as Braga Santos I had not even heard the name of before joining the forum) I don't think the GMG focus is so much different from the typical classical listener or from the typical concert programming.
As for the two periods, Madiel is obviously correct. There are three main composers in the earlier period, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. And the early third of Haydn and the late Beethoven is missing. Even extending 15 years to Beethoven's and Schubert's death we only gain Schubert, Weber, Rossini and a bit of earliest Mendelssohn.
Whereas the later period has most of mature Dvorak, Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky and other Russians, all of Mahler and Debussy, most of R. Strauss, early Schoenberg and Stravinsky, late Verdi, most of Puccini, most of Fauré and a dozen or more major composers I am too lazy to mention.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on October 25, 2020, 12:42:47 AM
Present-day people also find it harder to relate strong emotions and mental images to the music of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven et al because it is more distant from our time in all respects—aesthetically, socially, politically, hermeneutically. This pattern increases exponentially with each century further back one goes (1680-1714, 1580-1614 etc). Indeed although classical music listeners skew older, thus are still relatively able to relate to music from 1880-1914 (although even then "difficult" composers like Mahler and Wagner and Stravinsky have already fallen into being "easy listening" for most classical listeners—and I think this is the general motivation for most classical listeners to prefer late romanticism/early modernism, it has already been absorbed into the cultural milieu but not so long ago as to require any additional historical knowledge, and therefore is aesthetically unchallenging and comfortable), I've noticed younger people have a much harder time connecting with and understanding that music as well, compared to that written between 1980-2014.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on October 25, 2020, 04:57:41 AM
Quote from: amw on October 25, 2020, 12:42:47 AMThis pattern increases exponentially with each century further back one goes (1680-1714, 1580-1614 etc).


What does this mean?  I'm not sure the concept of exponential growth applies to music appreciation.  Is it not possible for listeners to leap styles and centuries, and, say, connect with Renaissance style and structure when it comes to songs, while otherwise mainly being into romantic works?  Could not a person's religious upbringing influence appreciation for chant or polyphony while otherwise preferring post-war modernism? 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 25, 2020, 07:12:38 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 25, 2020, 04:57:41 AM
Is it not possible for listeners to leap styles and centuries, and, say, connect with Renaissance style and structure when it comes to songs, while otherwise mainly being into romantic works?  Could not a person's religious upbringing influence appreciation for chant or polyphony while otherwise preferring post-war modernism?
Sure, it is possible and it could be, but it's less likely or perhaps harder (except in the presence of a major influence like churchgoing or a baroque-obsessed parent or whatever). I know anecdotally for me as a millennial, most stuff from before, say, Haydn's Paris Symphonies are going on my stereo because they're "pleasant" or "nice" and true emotional engagement is a lot rarer. Once you get pre-Bach, especially, boy I have just nooooooo context to understand guys like Victoria or Marais or Machaut or you-name-them. A genre like trio sonatas, one really good disc is plenty to cover my needs. And especially not having been raised by Christians, early sacred music is totally "other" to me in a way that makes me sad because I picked up, for example, that box set of Savall on Warner with the 1300s-1600s stuff and I know I'm missing out on 90% of the pleasure in it.

Another related thought I've had in live concert halls is a continuing low key resentment that most modern full-size orchestras keep doing so much Mozart and Haydn when they generally can't. As in, they don't bother with HIP and don't adjust to the lessons of the movement, and they have like an 80-person ensemble for them, but tragically they do not have the other element necessary for a totally modern grand orchestra interpretation to work, which is to be conducted by either George Szell or Josef Krips. So why bother?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 25, 2020, 07:16:24 AM
Oh, also worth adding that the increasing difficulty of getting today's listeners into 300+ year old music is a big part of why the HIP movement is so ADD-sounding sometimes with the huge contrasts and wild tempos. Imho. Even outside of HIP, we have the example of Manfred Honeck adding new dissonance to Beethoven's Third Symphony explicitly to replicate for us today the shock people must have felt back then at dissonances which now sound totally normal!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Que on October 25, 2020, 07:16:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 02, 2020, 12:00:17 PM
My opinion on Bruckner is that he is conducted much too slowly by everyone, and that the 6th symphony should be over in under 50 minutes, the 7th symphony in about 52 (15', 18-19', 7:30ish, and a bit over 10'). The 3rd probably should be much faster in most recordings, but at least we have the Szell recording, which is perfect.

Agreed!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on October 25, 2020, 07:28:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 25, 2020, 07:12:38 AMOnce you get pre-Bach, especially, boy I have just nooooooo context to understand guys like Victoria or Marais or Machaut or you-name-them.


I'm thinking more like Dowland or Monteverdi and their songs.  The structure and tenor of some of the songs clearly mirror and predate modern songs.  When I finally got around to them, I was startled at the similarities; modern pop music is not particularly adventurous.

Victoria and much polyphony may be much harder to get into without a more religious background.  Someone like Machaut, who is even earlier, may prove even harder to get into since now we're talking medieval.  And the Savall box reflects the artist's tastes in performing, which is, at times, idiosyncratic, as well as great.

I'm not bothered by modern bands playing anything in any style.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and in either case I just move on as the experiences are ephemeral.  Every once in a while, I have attended great performances - a modern, big band Creation for instance.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 25, 2020, 07:53:30 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 24, 2020, 05:57:01 PM
And I'm talking about how people on GMG find out about music and the names of composers. If you're trying to argue that somehow GMG is out of step with the general classical music listening population, then I think you're wrong. People on GMG listen to more music from 1880-1914 than they do from 1780-1814 because there's a much wider range of music and composers generally available from one era than the other. Not because GMG somehow attracted late Romantic fetishists.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 26, 2020, 08:21:12 AM
Quote from: amw on October 25, 2020, 12:42:47 AM
Present-day people also find it harder to relate strong emotions and mental images to the music of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven et al because it is more distant from our time in all respects—aesthetically, socially, politically, hermeneutically.

I suppose you exclude yourself from "present-day people" because afaik, and please correct me if I'm wrong, your soulmate composer is Mozart and you have extensive knowledge of Beethoven's piano sonatas including their aesthetic and hermeneutical aspects.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 26, 2020, 10:54:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 26, 2020, 08:21:12 AM
I suppose you exclude yourself from "present-day people"
Why do you suppose that? Just because it is harder for present-day people, doesn't mean it's impossible. Just because it's rarer, doesn't mean it's non-existent, either.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 26, 2020, 11:12:02 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 25, 2020, 07:16:24 AM
Oh, also worth adding that the increasing difficulty of getting today's listeners into 300+ year old music is a big part of why the HIP movement is so ADD-sounding sometimes with the huge contrasts and wild tempos. Imho.
This could be the case. However, many people were quite fond of Vivaldi in sleek and straightforward Musici/Marriner style for about 30-40  years ca. 1950s-80s and German Lutheran cantors did Schütz with their choirs in the early 20th century. Even Brahms was familiar with Schütz, Palestrina was sung (and "imitated") all over the 19th century. Simillarly with the British choral traditions, I'd think. And there is Gregorian chant... Admittedly for such devotional/liturgical different appreciation criteria might be applied by most listeners.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 28, 2020, 12:14:23 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 25, 2020, 07:16:24 AM
Oh, also worth adding that the increasing difficulty of getting today's listeners into 300+ year old music is a big part of why the HIP movement is so ADD-sounding sometimes with the huge contrasts and wild tempos. Imho. Even outside of HIP, we have the example of Manfred Honeck adding new dissonance to Beethoven's Third Symphony explicitly to replicate for us today the shock people must have felt back then at dissonances which now sound totally normal!

The paradox of the HIP movement is that it seeks to make music sound really new by making it sound really old.

I don't think it's just a matter of chronology. Some of this 300+ year old music actually sounds quite modern if you don't soften its edges. Whereas someone like LvB is already so familiar that he can't really shock us anymore.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 29, 2020, 02:16:35 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 28, 2020, 12:14:23 PM
The paradox of the HIP movement is that it seeks to make music sound really new by making it sound really old.

I don't think it's just a matter of chronology. Some of this 300+ year old music actually sounds quite modern if you don't soften its edges. Whereas someone like LvB is already so familiar that he can't really shock us anymore.

Why should good music always be about novelty and shock?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 29, 2020, 02:34:46 AM
Actually, there are claims both from musicologists and naive listeners that HIP is making  the old music sound modern by assimilating it to modern music.
Richard Taruskin claimed that some of the earlier HIP (and it seems partly more true of Proto-HIP like Marriner) play Bach like neoclassical Stravinsky was supposed to be played, i.e. metronomically, fast, "dry" and lean. Whereas Furtwängler oder Casals played Bach similarly to the way they played Brahms. (It's not quite true, I don't have a good example for Bach, but e.g. Furtwängler's recording of Haydn's symphony #88 is in no way as wayward and "romantic" as some of his Beethoven or Brahms). Sure, this was never true of someone like Harnoncourt or Savall and is not true anymore of many of the more recent ones like Jacobs, Minkowski etc. who use exaggerated rubato etc.
And I have heard older listeners who grew up with I musici etc. in the 60s claim that the more recent HIPsters (like Giardino Armonico) made Vivaldi or Mozart sound like "rock music" (obviously this is also an exaggeration but it seems a serious personal impression).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on October 29, 2020, 06:21:56 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 29, 2020, 02:16:35 AM
Why should good music always be about novelty and shock?
He didn't say that.

EDIT: Just so you know - it is a subtle thing - in English, "novelty" generally has a negative connotation; it usually refers to a new thing that, once it becomes an old thing, is not interesting any more. So like, putting edible gold on food or having the orchestra members scream in the middle of the music might be a "novelty." :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 29, 2020, 08:25:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2020, 06:21:56 AM
He didn't say that.

I know. My question was rhetorical but I positioned it clumsily as a reply to ATA's post.

Quote
EDIT: Just so you know - it is a subtle thing - in English, "novelty" generally has a negative connotation; it usually refers to a new thing that, once it becomes an old thing, is not interesting any more. So like, putting edible gold on food or having the orchestra members scream in the middle of the music might be a "novelty." :)

I see. Thanks for the info, good to know in the future. I really thought that "novelty" can be applied to anything new, good or bad alike,
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 29, 2020, 08:44:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 29, 2020, 08:25:27 AM

I see. Thanks for the info, good to know in the future. I really thought that "novelty" can be applied to anything new, good or bad alike,

Actually, I agree with you. It could go either way. Example: in patent law, "novelty" is a necessary element in granting a patent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_(patent)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 30, 2020, 04:20:25 AM
Also agreed. Whether or not "novelty" has a negative connotation depends a lot on context. And usage might well vary in different parts of the English-speaking world.

I'm sure all languages are crazy. I'm currently acutely aware of some of the craziness of my own language, partly because of a podcast I listen to on the history of English which is up to the part where we completely and utterly ruined spelling even more than we had in previous centuries. The Great Vowel Shift has a lot to answer for there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 30, 2020, 07:14:05 AM
Yes, before the changes the sound of English was much closer to low german or dutch in many ways (and much closer to the way it was spelled). My frequently stated unpopular opinion is that English and French are very badly suited as linguae francae but unfortunately have been the most important ones in the last 200 years. Both for their nightmarish spelling/pronunciation, English also for the huge vocab drawing from so many sources (it has often three words when German has one, e.g. sky, heaven, celestial) and French also for being generally insufferable ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 07:28:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 30, 2020, 07:14:05 AM
Yes, before the changes the sound of English was much closer to low german or dutch in many ways (and much closer to the way it was spelled). My frequently stated unpopular opinion is that English and French are very badly suited as linguae francae but unfortunately have been the most important ones in the last 200 years. Both for their nightmarish spelling/pronunciation, English also for the huge vocab drawing from so many sources (it has often three words when German has one, e.g. sky, heaven, celestial) and French also for being generally insufferable ;)

The spelling/pronunciation thing though is really the only difficult thing about English. Compared to any other European language, the grammar is very easy (no cases, no genders, very few irregular plurals, very simple verb conjugations, only one way to say "you").

It's true there are an awful lot of words, but you don't need most of them for everyday communication.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 07:54:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 30, 2020, 07:14:05 AM
English and French are very badly suited as linguae francae but unfortunately have been the most important ones in the last 200 years.

I agree with that.

Quote
Both for their nightmarish spelling/pronunciation,

And with that.

QuoteEnglish also for the huge vocab drawing from so many sources (it has often three words when German has one, e.g. sky, heaven, celestial) and French also for being generally insufferable ;)

I disagree with that.

Celestial is not the same as sky or heaven, if only because it's an adjective while the latter are nouns. It's not even synonymous with heavenly because you can't say "This is celestial music" instead of "This is heavenly music" --- the nuances are different.

French is more melodious than English to my ears.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 07:54:36 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 07:28:48 AM
The spelling/pronunciation thing though is really the only difficult thing about English. Compared to any other European language, the grammar is very easy (no cases, no genders, very few irregular plurals, very simple verb conjugations, only one way to say "you").

It's true there are an awful lot of words, but you don't need most of them for everyday communication.

Yes to all of the above.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 30, 2020, 08:37:01 AM
Sure, celestrial is an adjective but in German French it would be only ciel/celeste and in German Himmel/himmlisch, so clearly with a common root, not three different sources (Norse, Anglosaxon, French/Latin). Or skin, hide, peal, there are tons of examples and the one above might not have been the best.
The English grammar is not that simple. It's true that there are not many irregular verbs or verbal forms like in most other languages but as far as actually used tenses go, German is even simpler (it lacks progressive and while it has all the other tenses, all but two are rarely used in colloquial speech although one would need passive knowledge of them for reading a newspaper). There are many advanced subtleties in English; it has been said that unlike French English becomes harder the more one advances (I never got sufficiently far in French to judge this myself.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 08:42:47 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 30, 2020, 08:37:01 AM
Sure, celestrial is an adjective but in German French it would be only ciel/celeste and in German Himmel/himmlisch, so clearly with a common root, not three different sources (Norse, Anglosaxon, French/Latin). Or skin, hide, peal, there are tons of examples and the one above might not have been the best.
The English grammar is not that simple. It's true that there are not many irregular verbs or verbal forms like in most other languages but as far as actually used tenses go, German is even simpler (it lacks progressive and while it has all the other tenses, all but two are rarely used in colloquial speech although one would need passive knowledge of them for reading a newspaper). There are many advanced subtleties in English; it has been said that unlike French English becomes harder the more one advances (I never got sufficiently far in French to judge this myself.)

You are the only person I've met until now who claims that German grammar is simpler than the English one, and you might very well remain the one and only.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 08:53:49 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 07:54:03 AM
French is more melodious than English to my ears.

This really depends on dialect or accent. Few things are more melodious than certain Irish or Scottish accents.

Quote from: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 08:42:47 AM
You are the only person I've met until now who claims that German grammar is simpler than the English one, and you might very well remain the one and only.  :D

Ain't it the truth. Germanic speakers (not just Germans but Dutch, Swedes etc.) have told me English is very easy for them to learn, because it's basically simplified German, though with a ton of Romance vocabulary thrown into the mix.

German has the great advantage of deriving almost its entire basic word stock from its ancestral Germanic roots, which makes it easy to figure out the meaning of words you've never seen before. Example: Waffenstillstand = "weapons standing still" = "armistice," a word that has to be explained to English speakers ("Mom, what does 'armistice' mean?"). However, its grammar is needlessly complex.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 08:59:12 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 08:53:49 AM
This really depends on dialect or accent. Few things are more melodious than certain Irish or Scottish accents.

I said that to my ears French is more melodious than English. Irish or Scottish are not English though, right?  ;)

And among those few things there is French.  ;D


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 08:59:12 AM
Irish or Scottish are not English though, right?  ;)

They are English speakers (most of the time, anyway).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 09:29:19 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
They are English speakers (most of the time, anyway).

I was referring to the languages. Irish is not in the same family as English; Scottish is, but it's a language of its own, not an English dialect.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 09:44:15 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 09:29:19 AM
I was referring to the languages. Irish is not in the same family as English; Scottish is, but it's a language of its own, not an English dialect.

Well yeah, I knew that. I was referring to their accents when speaking English (not Scots, Irish or Scottish Gaelic, Ulster Scots, Shetlandic, or for that matter Yola:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFl9ptuxd8s

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 09:56:11 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 09:44:15 AM
I was referring to their accents when speaking English

Got it now.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 31, 2020, 01:34:04 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 30, 2020, 08:42:47 AM
You are the only person I've met until now who claims that German grammar is simpler than the English one, and you might very well remain the one and only. 

It's not like in that old Jewish joke, that Yiddish was obviously the best language of all because "man farshteyt yedes wort" because I didn't claim that German grammar was easier overall. There is declension of nouns and conjugation of verbs, so the verbs are harder.
I said that the tenses are harder in English because German lacks some distinctions and the usage of tenses is fairly primitive, especiallly colloquially. E.g. Future tense is rarely used in everyday speech. Instead of the correct "Morgen werde ich ins Schwimmbad gehen", most of the time people would just use present tense and say "Morgen gehe ich ins Schwimmbad" because morgen (tomorrow) is enough to indicate the future. (German also lacks the "going to" future English and several romance languages have.) And the three past tenses of formal written German mostly collapse to one (perfect, regardless of perfective aspect). German is really primitive as far as the tenses go, compared to English or the romance languages. There is no real connection to aspects via tenses and it lacks forms like progressives.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 31, 2020, 02:10:16 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 30, 2020, 08:53:49 AM
German has the great advantage of deriving almost its entire basic word stock from its ancestral Germanic roots, which makes it easy to figure out the meaning of words you've never seen before. Example: Waffenstillstand = "weapons standing still" = "armistice," a word that has to be explained to English speakers ("Mom, what does 'armistice' mean?"). However, its grammar is needlessly complex.
"needlessly complex" is nonsense, what would be the proper level of complexity? ;) As I said, German is fairly simple compared to romance languages as far as tenses and verb aspects go (the aspects such as perfective, progressive, iterative etc. all have to be expressed by adverbs, context etc.)  Also declensions are easier than in Latin ;)
German(ic) vocabulary is easier in the way you mentioned but it's harder for native speakers of English or romance languages because unlike English it uses more Germanic roots instead of Latin/French ones even in many abstract and technical terms and keeps the latter often for high level technical terms the layman hardly encounters.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 31, 2020, 04:43:20 AM
Having sent you all down this rabbit hole, let me observe:

1. All the other Germanic languages have simpler grammar than German itself. And the considerable advantage of not making you wait until the very end of the sentence to find out what the verb is.

2. On the other hand, German spelling and pronunciation is dead simple.

3. English grammar was to a large extent simplified by contact with Norse/the Scandinavian languages. But arguably Danish/Norwegian is even a bit simpler. One single verb form for 1st, 2nd and 3rd person in both singular and plural. I nearly cried with joy.

4. Danish grammar isn't hard, but Danish pronunciation is horrendous. And you won't find a more bizarre counting system anywhere.

5. I'd suggest we all try speaking Norwegian only there isn't even agreement in Norway on what "Norwegian" is. So that's a problem.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 31, 2020, 05:48:43 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 31, 2020, 04:43:20 AM
1. All the other Germanic languages have simpler grammar than German itself. And the considerable advantage of not making you wait until the very end of the sentence to find out what the verb is.

Yep.

Quote2. On the other hand, German spelling and pronunciation is dead simple.

Yep.

Quotet Danish pronunciation is horrendous. And you won't find a more bizarre counting system anywhere.

Could you please eleborate on that? The most bizarre counting system I know --- not for numbers, though, but for telling the clock --- is the Dutch one. For instance, 13:35 in Dutch (vijf over half twee) )translates in English as "five past half until two".

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on October 31, 2020, 07:22:02 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 31, 2020, 05:48:43 AM
Could you please eleborate on that? The most bizarre counting system I know --- not for numbers, though, but for telling the clock --- is the Dutch one. For instance, 13:35 in Dutch (vijf over half twee) )translates in English as "five past half until two".

In principle similarly in Danish:

Fem minutter over halv to = five minutes past half until two.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on October 31, 2020, 08:09:52 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 29, 2020, 02:34:46 AM
Actually, there are claims both from musicologists and naive listeners that HIP is making  the old music sound modern by assimilating it to modern music.
Richard Taruskin claimed that some of the earlier HIP (and it seems partly more true of Proto-HIP like Marriner) play Bach like neoclassical Stravinsky was supposed to be played, i.e. metronomically, fast, "dry" and lean.

This may, as you write, to some extent be true of what you name Proto-HIP (in my terminology Pre-HIP), but the later "genuine" HIP (Leonhardt, Harnoncourt and on) invented a new unprecedented style based upon historical evidence combined with artistic imagination, and this style has nothing to do with modern music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on October 31, 2020, 08:11:57 AM
The clock time is the same in German as in these examples:  "Fünf (Minuten) nach halb zwei" (but one can use also the 24 hour system and say "13 Uhr 35" as would be done at train stations and the like).

I thought modern Icelandic was still quite close to old Norse and grammatically (or at least generally) harder than modern German.

Verb to the end only applied to subclauses. In simple clauses or main clauses the direct object tends to go to the end (SPO) "Ich gebe Peter einen Apfel" "I give an apple to Peter". There is no way I could put the verb to the very end here although I have a bit more flexibility in German juggling around the direct (accusative) object and the dative object, e.g. "Peter gebe ich einen Apfel, Paul eine Birne". "Den Apfel gebe ich Peter, die Birne Paul" (In this case one could do the same in English but generally word order is more flexible in German although this is more frequently used in elaborate speech or poetry. Obviously one order stresses the importance of the receivers of the fruit, the other the kind of fruit they get.)
Now what seems hard and not very logical is the position of the pronoun "ich". That has to be before the verb in the first case (otherwise it would be a question: Gebe ich Peter einen Apfel?) and behind in the second case.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 31, 2020, 08:36:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 31, 2020, 02:10:16 AM
"needlessly complex" is nonsense, what would be the proper level of complexity? ;)

I think "needlessly complex" applies to things like the numerous and sometimes unpredictable ways to make plurals, as well as the whole gender thing (which of course is the norm in European languages). But German is less needlessly complex than Polish for instance, with its seven different ways to say "you," and its special plural for masculine individuals.

Slavic languages also have something like 15 different ways to conjugate verbs, which doesn't help.

Re: future tense - actually we rarely use the "will" form colloquially. The norm is to say "I'm going swimming tomorrow," not "I will swim tomorrow," which sounds stilted and formal.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on October 31, 2020, 08:49:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 31, 2020, 08:11:57 AM
The clock time is the same in German as in these examples:  "Fünf (Minuten) nach halb zwei" (but one can use also the 24 hour system and say "13 Uhr 35" as would be done at train stations and the like).

We do that up here too, one can just as well say "13-35", if one chooses to, say for reasons of clarity (for example when talking to strangers).






Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 31, 2020, 08:49:23 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 31, 2020, 07:22:02 AM
In principle similarly in Danish:

Fem minutter over halv to = five minutes past half until two.

;D

It strikes me as extremely convoluted. Couldn't you just say "one thirty-five", or as in English "twenty-five to two"? In Romanian it's either "one thirty-five" (formal) or "two without twenty-five" (coloquial and most commonly used).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on October 31, 2020, 04:17:48 PM
I don't know what got you all into clock times. I said nothing about clocks. I was talking about regular numbers.

Danish takes the German feature of units before tens, the somewhat French habit of using multiples of 20, the habit of subtracting halves rather than adding them, combines all this and uses shorthand.

93 is "three and half fives". And that's one of the ones I find easier to remember.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on October 31, 2020, 10:26:22 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 31, 2020, 04:17:48 PM
I don't know what got you all into clock times. I said nothing about clocks. I was talking about regular numbers.

Danish takes the German feature of units before tens, the somewhat French habit of using multiples of 20, the habit of subtracting halves rather than adding them, combines all this and uses shorthand.

93 is "three and half fives". And that's one of the ones I find easier to remember.

Yes, and there are even deviations, forty just being just fyrre, eighty being firs, whereas fifty is halvtreds ...  The only thing to do is to learn it all by heart. There's been talks of maybe 'importing' the Swedish or English system of counting, where fifty is just five-tens / femtio for example, but it probably won't happen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on October 31, 2020, 11:55:55 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 31, 2020, 04:17:48 PM
93 is "three and half fives". And that's one of the ones I find easier to remember.

Then 90 must be "half fives". Which fives and what half?  ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 01, 2020, 12:06:33 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 31, 2020, 08:36:48 AM
I think "needlessly complex" applies to things like the numerous and sometimes unpredictable ways to make plurals, as well as the whole gender thing (which of course is the norm in European languages). But German is less needlessly complex than Polish for instance, with its seven different ways to say "you," and its special plural for masculine individuals.

Slavic languages also have something like 15 different ways to conjugate verbs, which doesn't help.
I have been dabbling with Russian a bit and I thought the verbs were actually not as bad as some other things and the hardest thing about verbs were the aspects that are distinguished by prefixes which German does have in a rudimentary fashion I never realized before, e.g. essen - aufessen, speisen - verspeisen where the second version indicates not merely eating but eating up everything (perfective aspect)).

While it is probably too simple, as I dimly recall it from popular linguistics, proto-Indo-European had EVERYTHING. About 8 cases (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, vocative, locative, instrumentalis of which some slavic languages retain 6-7), dual in addition to singular and plural, tons of tenses, participles etc. (I don't know anything about the Indo-Iranian branch and I read that Lithuanian may be closest of all modern languages to the  hypothetical stage 5000 years ago but Classical Greek still has most of the tenses and participles). And that then most languages becames gradually simpler, losing most of the flexion, fusing tenses and all kinds of other complications together.
With the vaning of Latin as a standard language in higher education many Western Europeans (unless they learned a slavic language or Irish) take the rather simple grammar level of English and modern romance languages as typical. Which is not the case for Indo-european in general.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 01, 2020, 12:08:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 31, 2020, 11:55:55 PM
Then 90 must be "half fives". Which fives and what half?  ???

4x20 and half of the 5th 20. I would not have thought that counting could get crazier than French (and the Canadians and some French Swiss apparently have a rational variant of counting in French).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pjme on November 01, 2020, 12:45:42 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 31, 2020, 05:48:43 AM
For instance, 13:35 in Dutch (vijf over half twee) )translates in English as "five past half until two".

?????Can someone explain the "until"?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 02:39:34 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 31, 2020, 11:55:55 PM
Then 90 must be "half fives". Which fives and what half?  ???

Once upon a time it was originally "half-fifth-times-of-twenty". But most of that has dropped off. Arguably I shouldn't have called it "half fives", etymologically it's more like "half-fifth".

Even Norwegians and Swedes look at Danish counting and think, what the hell are they doing?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on November 01, 2020, 03:00:07 AM
Quote from: pjme on November 01, 2020, 12:45:42 AM
?????Can someone explain the "until"?

Half (an hour) until; ie. 13:30 is half until 14:00. That's my guess, anyway; I'm no Dutch speaker.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 01, 2020, 04:20:42 AM
Yes, in many languages the half hour is not counted past but until. Or at least in German it is rather the interval of the second hour which will be complete at 2 o'clock that is subdivided and designated accordingly. Therefore "halb zwei" (half two, i.e. 13:30) does not really stem from half an hour before two but "half of the hour #2 has passed". There is a consistent system that accordingly calls 13:15 "viertel zwei" (quarter two) and 13:45 "dreiviertel zwei" but this is regional and somewhat old fashioned.
Confusingly, the more common colloquial way (virtually all official times are in 24 hour time) mixes the way of dividing the interval I just described and the relation to the next full hour (as a point in time). "Viertel nach [past] eins, halb zwei, viertel vor [to/before] zwei." People used to this more common way are usually quite confused both by "dreiviertel zwei" and even more by "viertel zwei" meaning a quarter past one.
And of course, every German learner of English gets confused by "half (past) two" if in colloquial speech the past is left out.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 04:20:52 AM
How do you say time in Finnish?

"Kello on ...." (the clock/time is...) where the "...." is:

14:00 = "kaksi" (two)
14:01 = "yksi yli kaksi" (one over two)
14:05 = "viisi yli kaksi" (five over two)
14:10 = "kymmenen yli kaksi" (ten over two)
14:15 = "varttia yli kaksi" (quarter over two) or "viisitoista yli kaksi" (fifteen over two)
14:23 = "kaksikymmentäkolme yli kaksi" (twentythree over two)
14:30 = "puoli kolme" (half three)
14:32 = "kaksikymmentäkahdeksan vaille kolme" (twentyeight to three)
14:41 = "yhdeksäntoista vaille kolme" (nineteen to three)
14:45 = "varttia vaille kolme" (quarter to three)
14:56 = "neljä vaille kolme" (four to three)

So, how do you say "The time is 15:00" in Finnish?  :)

(A) "Kello on vartti"
(B) "Kello on neljä"
(C) "Kello on kolme"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pjme on November 01, 2020, 04:22:19 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 01, 2020, 03:00:07 AM
Half (an hour) until; ie. 13:30 is half until 14:00. That's my guess, anyway; I'm no Dutch speaker.

Well, I am.  And the translation is much simpler: Dutch or Flemish "vijf over half twee" translates as "five past half two".
That's it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 04:28:57 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 01, 2020, 12:06:33 AM
proto-Indo-European had EVERYTHING. About 8 cases (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, vocative, locative, instrumentalis of which some slavic languages retain 6-7), dual in addition to singular and plural, tons of tenses, participles etc. (I don't know anything about the Indo-Iranian branch and I read that Lithuanian may be closest of all modern languages to the  hypothetical stage 5000 years ago but Classical Greek still has most of the tenses and participles). And that then most languages becames gradually simpler, losing most of the flexion, fusing tenses and all kinds of other complications together.
With the vaning of Latin as a standard language in higher education many Western Europeans (unless they learned a slavic language or Irish) take the rather simple grammar level of English and modern romance languages as typical. Which is not the case for Indo-european in general.

Romanian grammar is basically a simplified Latin one. It has 5 cases (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative --- for the latter only some names are modified, others stay the same), about 5 or 6 tenses, plural depends on genre for "two" and any number containing two units (the word for "two" in "forty-two dogs" is different from the word for "two" in "forty-two cats" because "dog" is male genre and "cat" is female). Actually, genre in Romanian is very important and different from other Romance languages --- for instance "day", "evening", "world" and "problem" are female genre, and we have a "neutral genre", meaning that the singular is male and the plural is female --- hard to understand, I know, but that's how it is; as a rule of thumb, most Romanian neutral nouns are female in French*. The conjugation of verbs has three regular forms and lots of irregular ones. There is no equivalent of, say, "I am reading" as different from "I read" --- "(Eu) citesc" is valid both for the former and the latter. The future tense can be formed either with "have" or "will" (in modified forms) --- for instance, "Am să vin la tine  mâine" (literal translation "I have to come to you tomorrow") is teh same as "Voi veni la tine mâine" (literal translation "I will come to you tomorrow"). Btw, the personal pronoun is dropped in most cases because the conjugation of the verb makes it redundant; it's used only in those cases where the actual subject of an action must be stressed.

In common usage, though, just two tenses, equivalent formally to present and present perfect in English, are enough, even for future actions, which, as Jo said about German, can perfectly be described and understood using the present tense with an adverb which clearly implies future, such as "mâine" which means "tomorrow".

Counting is honestly and hands down more coherent and consistent than all the languages I can fluently speak, read or understand (English, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese) or I can partially speak, read or understand (Dutch, German), Anything between 10 and 20 is literally translated as "[digit between one and nine, two depending on genre]-to-ten"; 70 as "seven tens"; 93 as "nine tens and three" --- these last two examples are actually rules with no exceptions whatsoever for counting until 100, save that "two tens" is different for female and male genre. Past 100, you just say "one hundred seven tens" or "one hundred nine tens and three".

The common vocabulary is 90% Latin, 9% Slavic, 1% Turkish/Hungarian but I'm firmly convinced that if a 14th-century Romanian listened to the TV news he'd understand almost nothing. Moreover, and educated Romanian with a natural talent for learning foreign languages --- such as yours truly --- cand easily understand Italian, Spanish and French easier and more often than the other way around.

*Hungarian language having no genres at all, one of the greatest sources of laughter for a Romanian is to hear a Hungarian messing up Romanian genres --- this frequent confusion has even given rise to jokes which are untranslatable but very funny for us.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 04:34:06 AM
Quote from: pjme on November 01, 2020, 04:22:19 AM
Well, I am.  And the translation is much simpler: Dutch or Flemish "vijf over half twee" translates as "five past half two".
That's it.

Yes, but in Romanian "vijf over half twee" translates word by word as "cinci peste jumătate două" which makes no sense at all. Now, "cinci minute peste jumătate de oră până la două" makes sense, albeit an extremely convoluted one. And "până la" translates exactly as "until".  :D

The whole Romanian phrase translates in English as "five minutes past half-an-hour until two". If I told the clok to my wife this way she'd think I had much more beers than I usually have.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 07:32:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 01, 2020, 12:06:33 AM

While it is probably too simple, as I dimly recall it from popular linguistics, proto-Indo-European had EVERYTHING. About 8 cases (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, vocative, locative, instrumentalis of which some slavic languages retain 6-7), dual in addition to singular and plural, tons of tenses, participles etc. (I don't know anything about the Indo-Iranian branch and I read that Lithuanian may be closest of all modern languages to the  hypothetical stage 5000 years ago but Classical Greek still has most of the tenses and participles). And that then most languages becames gradually simpler, losing most of the flexion, fusing tenses and all kinds of other complications together.

All of this is basically true. The Lithuanian thing is often exaggerated - you'll hear people say "Lithuanian derives from Sanskrit" or "Lithuanian is the oldest Indo-European language" and other inaccurate things - but it does preserve more of the archaic I-E features than probably any other living language.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 07:45:22 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 07:32:48 AM
All of this is basically true. The Lithuanian thing is often exaggerated - you'll hear people say "Lithuanian derives from Sanskrit" or "Lithuanian is the oldest Indo-European language" and other inaccurate things - but it does preserve more of the archaic I-E features than probably any other living language.

If the latter is true, then why is the former exaggerated? If Lithuanian is the closest living language we'll ever get to the PIE*, then that's it, period.

* the putatively Proto-Indo-European language.

And yet --- if no living linguist can write or speak one single word in the putatively Proto-Indo-European language, how can one assess the degree of closeness to it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 07:49:42 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 01, 2020, 12:06:33 AM
proto-Indo-European

This is like the unicorn. No living person is able to utter a single word of it, let alone write it. It's all speculation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 08:01:56 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 07:32:48 AM
[...] Lithuanian [...]preserve more of the archaic I-E features than probably any other living language.

This presupposes three things.

1. You fluently speak Lithuanian.

2. You fluently speak the archaic I-E.

3. You fluently speak any other living language.

I'm admittedly in my contrarian mood but I honestly think neither of the above is true, except possibly (1).

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 08:06:38 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 07:45:22 AM
If the latter is true, then why is the former exaggerated? If Lithuanian is the closest living language we'll ever get to the PIE*, then that's it, period.

* the putatively Proto-Indo-European language.

And yet --- if no living linguist can write or speak one single word in the putatively Proto-Indo-European language, how can one assess the degree of closeness to it?

1. The examples I quoted are the exaggerations.

2. Of course nobody speaks PIE nowadays. It's been reconstructed hypothetically by linguists over the course of a couple of centuries. And naturally that reconstruction itself is always subject to change.

So yeah, if you wanna be strict, we can't make statements regarding the relation of modern Lithuanian to PIE with any certainty. What I'm giving you is the current prevailing opinion of academic linguists.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 08:13:12 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 08:06:38 AM
What I'm giving you is the current prevailing opinion of academic linguists.

Well, yes, I'm aware of it. I still maintain they're talking about unicorns.



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 08:17:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 08:13:12 AM
Well, yes, I'm aware of it. I still maintain they're talking about unicorns.

It's the inherent flaw of historical research. Are archeologists "talking about unicorns" when they draw conclusions from bits of pottery unearthed in an ancient city?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 08:32:45 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 08:17:47 AM
It's the inherent flaw of historical research. Are archeologists "talking about unicorns" when they draw conclusions from bits of pottery unearthed in an ancient city?

A "bits of pottery unearthed in an ancient city" is real; you can measure and weight it, describe its colors and design. You can be absolutely sure that real people created and used it.

The putatively proto-Indo-European language is an entirely intellectual construct --- nobody has even the slightest idea how it sounded or how it was written.

Question for you: where did the proto-Indo-European people originated from? What is the prevailing opinion of academic historians in this respect?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 01, 2020, 08:41:31 AM
It's not that dissimilar from speculation about "missing link" species in palaeontology or celestial bodies because of the disturbation of an orbit of another planet. One gets the rules of language change from experience, namely from the known languages and the respective changes in the last ca. 3000 years (mostly from Sanskrit and archaic Greek until today) and then extrapolates backwards another 2000 years. Of course there huge gaps. AFAIK, we don't know that much more about "proto-germanic" ca. 2000 years ago than about indoeuropean 2000-3000 years earlier, it's also a reconstruction because there are no texts and only a bunch of words (probably mangled by the Romans who recorded them)
AFAIK by now we have confirmation both from archaelogy and palaeogenetics (the latter is extremely recent, there are youtube lectures by David Reich and it's mostly from the last 10 years) for some features of archaic Indoeuropean culture and society that were hypothesized from mere linguistics already in the 19th and early 20th century. They came from the steppes close to the Caspian Sea.

So sure, it is speculation but not more so than in archaeology or even some physics.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 09:04:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 08:32:45 AM
A "bits of pottery unearthed in an ancient city" is real; you can measure and weight it, describe its colors and design. You can be absolutely sure that real people created and used it.

The putatively proto-Indo-European language is an entirely intellectual construct --- nobody has even the slightest idea how it sounded or how it was written.

Question for you: where did the proto-Indo-European people originated from? What is the prevailing opinion of academic historians in this respect?

It's not pure speculation. It's based on science and careful observation about the way languages behave (including exactly why your 14th century Romanian wouldn't understand the news). Changes are not random. They follow patterns.

I mean, how is it that you can assert Romanian comes from Latin? Linguistics.

The proto Indo-Europeans lived in an area that had honeybees and beech trees. You can propose this because of the ways in which common words for these things exist in all the daughter languages.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2020, 09:25:52 AM
Quote from: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 09:04:05 AM
It's not pure speculation. It's based on science and careful observation about the way languages behave (including exactly why your 14th century Romanian wouldn't understand the news). Changes are not random. They follow patterns.

I mean, how is it that you can assert Romanian comes from Latin? Linguistics.

The proto Indo-Europeans lived in an area that had honeybees and beech trees. You can propose this because of the ways in which common words for these things exist in all the daughter languages.

The Sintashta Culture is a good example of how the current synthesis works - bringing together archeology, genetics, hypothesized language, and attested language (from ancient literature):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 10:10:03 AM
Quote from: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 09:04:05 AM
Ihe proto Indo-Europeans lived in an area that had honeybees and beech trees. You can propose this because of the ways in which common words for these things exist in all the daughter languages.

English: honeybee

Greek: melissa

Romanian: albina

Do you see any resemblance? I don't.

English: beech

Greek: figós

Romanian: fag

Do you see any resemblance? I don't, besides a vague one between the Greek and the Romanian word.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 12:56:28 PM
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 10:10:03 AM
English: honeybee

Greek: melissa

Romanian: albina

Do you see any resemblance? I don't.

English: beech

Greek: figós

Romanian: fag

Do you see any resemblance? I don't, besides a vague one between the Greek and the Romanian word.
Sigh. I did not say the current words matched. Again, that isn't how languages work. As illustrated by the fact that the Danish word for cloud is "sky".

AND as illustrated by the fact that you just posted 2 tree words that very much resemble English "fig" rather than "beech".

I'm not going to be able to explain all this in a single post.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:00:07 PM
Plus in any case the English "beech" IS cognate with Latin "fagus". https://www.etymonline.com/word/beech#etymonline_v_8232

If you understand how a g becomes a k (extremely closely related sounds) and how a k then becomes a ch, then yes there's a resemblance.

And various languages have a word for honey related to the English word "mead".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 01:08:07 PM
Quote from: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 12:56:28 PM
the Danish word for cloud is "sky".

Is this the English translation, or the actual Danish word? Either way, there is some logic in it. (Clouds are in the sky)

Quote
AND as illustrated by the fact that you just posted 2 tree words that very much resemble English "fig" rather than "beech".

I'm not going to be able to explain all this in a single post.

Tbh, I expected --- hoped, actually ---- you to retort that "beech" is actually not that different from" figós", just as the Greek "pisthis" is not that different from the Latin "fides" --- taking in account consonant for consonant and vowel for vowel. I'm disappointed.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 01:09:29 PM
Quote from: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:00:07 PM
Plus in any case the English "beech" IS cognate with Latin "fagus". https://www.etymonline.com/word/beech#etymonline_v_8232

If you understand how a g becomes a k (extremely closely related sounds) and how a k then becomes a ch, then yes there's a resemblance.

That's what I was alluding to, plus a "b" softening to a "f".  :D

Hat off to you!  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:13:48 PM
Repeating because you probably missed this edit: many languages have a word for honey related to the English word "mead".

And Danish "sky" is not a translation. That is the actual word. It means "cloud". You can understand how the northern English got confused when they borrowed it. The more usual Germanic word for sky is related to "heaven".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:15:50 PM
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 01:09:29 PM
That's what I was alluding to, plus a "b" softening to a "f".  :D

Hat off to you!  8)

It's the other way around. F turning into B. I believe it's part of Grimm's Law.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 01:22:20 PM
Quote from: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:13:48 PM
Repeating because you probably missed this edit: many languages have a word for honey related to the English word "mead".

Yes. Romanian for "mead" is "mied". But --- Romanian for "honey" is "miere", related to French, Spanish and Italian "miel".

QuoteAnd Danish "sky" is not a translation. That is the actual word. It means "cloud".

Am I right in supposing that it is ;pronounced approximately like the English "shew"?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 01:25:37 PM
Quote from: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:15:50 PM
It's the other way around. F turning into B. I believe it's part of Grimm's Law.

Yes, might be that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:31:45 PM
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 01:22:20 PM
Am I right in supposing that it is ;pronounced approximately like the English "shew"?

I'd have to actually use that English word in order to tell you.

But if you're asking whether the "y" is somewhat like the "ew" in English words, which is basically one of our "u" sounds, then close enough.

https://forvo.com/word/sky/
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 02, 2020, 01:34:10 AM
The so-called Grimm's law (interestingly usually not called by that name in German...) was a shift that marked a departure of the Germanic branch from others. Prominent and easy examples are k/c -> h (kyon, canis -> hound/hund), p -> f (pater - father/vater), not quite as easy kw -> w (->f) as in the pronouns "quo wo" or numbers quattuor -> vier, quinque -> fünf. (And the latin qu is a p or t in greek tettera 4, pente 5, pou - quo tis - quis (the kw seems the older one in some words, though, I have seen "ekwos "as PIE for "horse") One takes such differences and the rules for the changes and projects them into the past. Again we have almost 3 millenia of changes documented reasonably well for Greek, Latin, Sanskrit and their respective filial languages, such as the romance languages or Hindi.
Of course there are often words that are imported or excepted, like the example above of "to read" in Romanian coming from slavic (tshitat in Russian) not from legere or so.

The reconstructions are a bit like "inverse scattering" in physics. It's easier to figure out the products of a collision when you now which particle to put in, than to look at products and figure out which collision occured. But the latter is of course possible within limits.
It gets more speculative inferring culture from language. But there one does have prehistoric archaelogy to back it up, sparse as it might be. AFAIK some hypotheses founded on linguistics already in the 19th century have fared much better than vaguely comparable stuff (like the common earth mother goddess cult in the stone age or so.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on November 02, 2020, 03:30:49 AM
Quote from: Madiel on November 01, 2020, 01:31:45 PM
I'd have to actually use that English word in order to tell you.

But if you're asking whether the "y" is somewhat like the "ew" in English words, which is basically one of our "u" sounds, then close enough.

https://forvo.com/word/sky/

Here's a surprisingly sophisticated (instrumentally speaking) Danish children's song, where they pronounce it correctly (of course). It's very early in the accompanying/sung text (0:26), which is about a tiny cloud/'sky', that went for a morning walk ... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PcOuio7CVE
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 18, 2020, 03:52:13 PM
The final movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony goes on a bit long.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 18, 2020, 08:00:42 PM
The coda is not long enough, though.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 18, 2020, 08:57:27 PM
Truth is, I tend to be bored and tuned out before the coda arrives.

And then feel guilty.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 18, 2020, 10:29:48 PM
Quote from: Madiel on November 18, 2020, 03:52:13 PM
The final movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony goes on a bit long.

Agreed. Valid also for the 9th.  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 19, 2020, 12:04:02 AM
I am not sure if either opinion is all that unpopular.
I think the finale of the 9th is on a large scale but not all that long considering how much is going on there, especially compared to later 20+ min movements e.g. in Mahler, Bruckner, Shostakovich.
For the finale of the 5th I think that it is a bit long (one of the few Beethoven pieces where I will not complain if the repeat is not taken) but works quite well. It's created as the opposite in many respects to the extremely condensed first movement. It deals reasonably well with the problem that a completely jubilant finale will lack necessary contrast or conflict for typical sonata development by using the spooky soft reprise of the scherzo music.
For me the finales of the Kreutzer and Waldstein sonatas are better candidates for outstaying their welcome
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 19, 2020, 12:09:59 AM
I don't know the Kreutzer finale off the top of my head. I don't have any problem with the Waldstein... and heck the 9th symphony has told you it's going to be epic the whole way through.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on November 19, 2020, 01:49:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 18, 2020, 10:29:48 PM
Agreed. Valid also for the 9th.  ;D


Also the 8th, 3rd, 6th, the Grosse Fuge, the Waldstein, the Egmont Overture, the Missa Solemnis, the Archduke Trio, the Triple Concerto,

(I should also say I generally forgive these transgressions though)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on November 19, 2020, 01:55:30 AM
The Egmont Ouverture doesn't have movements...
I'd also rate the final of the Pastoral at least as "lengthy" as the one of the fifth, but even lengthy Beethoven is compact compared to Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 01:57:31 AM
Quote from: amw on November 19, 2020, 01:49:27 AM
Also the 8th, 3rd, 6th, the Grosse Fuge, the Waldstein, the Egmont Overture, the Missa Solemnis, the Archduke Trio, the Triple Concerto,

If Egmont Overture is too long, then the finale of Hammerklavier is what?  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 19, 2020, 01:59:37 AM
Length is not simply a function of chronological time. It is a function of harmonic movement, or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 02:04:15 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 19, 2020, 01:55:30 AM
even lengthy Beethoven is compact compared to Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich.

At least Schubert's length are heavenly.  :)

As time goes by, my tolerance for Late Romantic and post-Romantic longueurs dwindles more and more, especially when lacking in melodic content. Those people seem to have suffered from what Federico Mompou most aptly labelled as "phonorrhea".  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on November 19, 2020, 02:38:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 02:04:15 AM
At least Schubert's length are heavenly.  :)

As time goes by, my tolerance for Late Romantic and post-Romantic longueurs dwindles more and more, especially when lacking in melodic content. Those people seem to have suffered from what Federico Mompou most aptly labelled as "phonorrhea".  ;D
I'll take that "phonorrhea" any time over Mompou's particular brand of "phono-inopia".  ;)

Buna dimineata, Andrei.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 02:46:16 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 19, 2020, 02:38:39 AM
I'll take that "phonorrhea" any time over Mompou's particular brand of "phono-inopia".  ;)

Needless to say, for me it's the other way around.  :D

Quote
Buna dimineata, Andrei.

Actually, at this time of the day (past noon) it's Bună ziua. We say Bună dimineața only until noon. And after 6 pm it's Bună seara. Colloquially and only with very close relatives and friends, at any time we say just "Bună" which is like Hola!.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on November 19, 2020, 03:55:46 AM
And suddenly the relationship between Romanian and Italian is laid bare.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 06:46:00 AM
Quote from: Madiel on November 19, 2020, 03:55:46 AM
And suddenly the relationship between Romanian and Italian is laid bare.

:D

There's much more. For instance:

Come ti chiamo? / Cum te cheamă?

Che fai? Ce faci?

Lasciatemi cantare / Lăsați-mă să cânt

Il barbiere di Siviglia / Bărbierul din Sevilla


etc etc etc.

Many Italians have told me that Romanian sounds quite close to certain Southern Italian dialects such as Napolitan or Sardinian. For instance, a Napolitan chick told me that once she was with her friends on a Romanian seaside beach and heard someone telling their kid: Dezbracă-te. They instantly understood that the kid was told to undress, because in Napolitan it's Sbracati! (the written forms are similar enough but the pronunciations are even closer).

In my experience an educated Romanian can, with a little practice, understand at least 75% of written and spoken Italian without ever studying it proper. And if they have a native talent for languages --- yours truly, for instance --- the percentage goes to 90%. The other way around, though, is generally not valid.

And btw, Romanian is also very similar to Catalan, there are a lot of words and even combination of words which are written exactly the same.

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on November 19, 2020, 06:54:04 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 02:46:16 AM
Needless to say, for me it's the other way around.  :D

Actually, at this time of the day (past noon) it's Bună ziua. We say Bună dimineața only until noon. And after 6 pm it's Bună seara. Colloquially and only with very close relatives and friends, at any time we say just "Bună" which is like Hola!.
Thanks for the explanation, Andrei. I would have thought it was something like that. The thing is in Spain we'll say buenos días until lunchtime. And since lunchtime is between 2 and 3 pm, our mornings are longer that elsewhere  ;).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 06:58:14 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 19, 2020, 06:54:04 AM
Thanks for the explanation, Andrei. I would have thought it was something like that. The thing is in Spain we'll say buenos días until lunchtime. And since lunchtime is between 2 and 3 pm, our mornings are longer that elsewhere  ;).

I'm aware of that. You Spaniards just love to taaaaaake yooooooour tiiiiiiiiiime.  :D.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 10, 2020, 01:07:11 AM
Pejacevic wrote better piano miniatures than Grieg.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 10, 2020, 04:43:22 AM
Quote from: Madiel on December 10, 2020, 01:07:11 AM
Pejacevic wrote better piano miniatures than Grieg.

As far as I remember, her piano music is not bad at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on December 10, 2020, 12:11:27 PM
Klaus Tennstedt was overrated.

( ducks ),

LKB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 10, 2020, 12:36:06 PM
It seems Tennstedt really made splash in some live concerts in the 1970s and 1980s. People who attended these concerts became like devoted and also like his recordings. I don't think he is overrated today or has been in the last 20 years because he seems more like a dark horse nowadays and not that well known.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on December 10, 2020, 02:50:49 PM
I attended a performance of the LPO with KT conducting in San Francisco, ca.1984 or so. They opened with the overture to von Weber's Der Freischütz, and l thought it very well done, nearly perfect.

Next up was Beethoven's Sym. no. 3, which was the very first symphony l memorized, nearly fifty years ago.

It was excruciating. Slow, flabby, and a universe removed from the HIP revelations which had already been provided by Hogwood and Gardiner etc.. Essentially incomprehensible.

My friend and l couldn't endure past the opening of the second movement. I had wanted to give KT a chance to redeem himself, but it was not to be. The funeral march was interminable, and we finally fled some five hours after the symphony began...

( Ok, l exaggerate a bit, but it felt that way. )

Also, l've found most of his recordings to be pedestrian, particularly his Mahler. I just don't hear what some listeners get so excited about.

Perhaps l am fundamentally incompatible with Tennstedt in some way, or will grow into an appreciation of him down the road... stranger things have happened.

::),

LKB

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 10, 2020, 04:19:41 PM
Only really solid Tennstedt I've heard was a live broadcast of a Martinu symphony.

I feel that way about someone even more heretical... Giulini. Almost any Giulini recording for me is guaranteed to be a little slow, a little dull, with nothing new or interesting. This is definitely an unpopular opinion!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 10, 2020, 11:46:54 PM
I have heard almost no Tennstedt, so I cannot comment at all. But I do have the impression I sketched above and also that he and his recordings have largely faded and are not that well known among many listener, apart from that vocal minority.

Giulini is a rather different case. He was quite famous already in the early 60s and made lots of recordings over a timespan of about 40 years (whereas Tennstedt had a smaller, more local peak in the 1980s, apparently also cut short by illness).
I'd say that many of Giulinis later recordings (1980s) are not a little, but often extremely slow, but not slack in the better cases, so that the breadth and wealth of detail can be interesting. A bit like some Klemperer. TBH I think it mainly works with Bruckner but can be interesting in some other cases. So I think the high rating is deserved in some cases. Unlike Tennstedt I have heard and own a fair amount of his recordings (mostly Chicago and Vienna from the 70s to early 1990s) but I also could agree that there is some overrating of Giulini, especially in such that he seems still far better known and more highly rated than e.g. Tennstedt.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Biffo on December 11, 2020, 02:08:18 AM
I never rated Tennstedt very highly - efficient is the best I can say from my, admittedly, limited exposure. I never understood the enthusiasm for his Mahler.

I heard him live with the LPO in Mahler 2 - I know this because several years later I found the concert programme while clearing stuff out. I had absolutely no recollection of the concert. This is not due to failing memory as I do remember two earlier live performances of the same work - Levine, outstandingly good and Mehta, outstandingly bad.

I also heard Tennstedt in an all-Beethoven concert; the Coriolan Overture and the 5th Symphony were brisk and unfussy but not much else. The Violin Concerto was dragged out to nearly an hour but that might have been to suit the whims of the soloist, Gidon Kremer.

I thought I ought to give Tennstedt's Mahler recordings of Mahler a chance so I bought the double album of Symphony  No 5 and Das Lied von der Erde (EMI). I was pleasantly surprised by the opening of Symphony No 5; it was clean and unfussy, very different from some of the more 'highly coloured' versions I have. As the work progressed I realised there was little else to admire and it was actually a rather dull performance. Likewise I found DLvdE beautifully played and sung but bland.

This may be unpopular with some but I find Mahler from Michael Tilson Thomas and the SFSO also to be beautiful but bland.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: SimonNZ on December 11, 2020, 04:58:05 PM
I've never heard a recording by Yo Yo Ma that I thought was a top five recording of anything. If his entire discography disappeared I would never notice.

Seems like a nice guy, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 11, 2020, 05:06:46 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on December 11, 2020, 04:58:05 PM
I've never heard a recording by Yo Yo Ma that I thought was a top five recording of anything. If his entire discography disappeared I would never notice.

Seems like a nice guy, though.

Given how many recordings of things there are, Top 5 is a high bar.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: SimonNZ on December 11, 2020, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 11, 2020, 05:06:46 PM
Given how many recordings of things there are, Top 5 is a high bar.

Yeah, but that's the way I felt about him even in the days when most serious recordings could be contained within the covers of a single Penguin Guide.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on December 11, 2020, 05:13:28 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 11, 2020, 05:06:46 PM
Given how many recordings of things there are, Top 5 is a high bar.

Ma's coupling with Shosty 1st and Kabalevsky 1st ctos would be my preferred. But not any others by him.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: SimonNZ on December 11, 2020, 05:19:12 PM
I considered making an exception for his Finzi, but will stick with the above statement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on December 11, 2020, 05:38:22 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on December 11, 2020, 05:19:12 PM
I considered making an exception for his Finzi, but will stick with the above statement.
Oh yes, forgot about that one. Not sure, would have to compare.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 11, 2020, 07:54:07 PM
Walton too?
Just curious.

I agree that he seems like a terrific person. If I could ever have him over for dinner, I would.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 12, 2020, 02:41:19 AM
I am not sure I have ever heard a concerto recording with Ma, but I am not much into cello concerti.
I have a bunch of chamber music recordings with Ma participating that I'd regard top 3 with the caveat that I have not heard more than 3 recordings of the Chopin pieces. Namely, Chopin's Trio and Cello sonata with Ax and Frank, Schubert's G major quartet led by Kremer and, probably the most impressive of them, Mozart's Trio divertimento, also with Kremer and Kashkashian.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 14, 2020, 12:46:54 AM
If there are 12 'London' symphonies from 2 different trips to London, there ought to be 9 'Paris' symphonies from 2 different commissions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2020, 12:58:50 AM
Probably the Oxford university played some dirty tricks here to keep their symphony...

If mozart's #36 is called "Linz" and 38 "Prague" and a bunch of early ones "Salzburg", 39-41 should be called "Vienna".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 14, 2020, 01:01:44 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2020, 12:58:50 AM
Probably the Oxford university played some dirty tricks here to keep their symphony...

Or it's just that, as is still usual, English-speakers think it's all about them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on December 14, 2020, 01:59:38 AM
Time for a democratization in such titling matters, for sure.

There's a 'Liverpool Oratorio', but no Croydon, s'-Hertogenbosch, or Nyiregyhaza stuff ..
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2020, 08:19:49 AM
Years ago someone suggested in another forum to call Haydn's 88-92 "La Manche" or "The Channel" because they are between Paris and London, but I'd be also in favor of "Paris II"
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on December 14, 2020, 08:40:09 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2020, 08:19:49 AM
Years ago someone suggested in another forum to call Haydn's 88-92 "La Manche" or "The Channel" because they are between Paris and London, but I'd be also in favor of "Paris II"
88 is a good example of a Haydn symphony that needs a nickname because it would be much more popular if it had one. Haydn symphonies are unfair in that way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2020, 10:10:53 AM
88 is probably the most popular Haydn symphony without a nickname (102 another, but of course this is a "London" symphony even while lacking an individual nickname). It was already quite well known in the early 20th century.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 14, 2020, 11:26:43 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2020, 08:19:49 AM
Years ago someone suggested in another forum to call Haydn's 88-92 "La Manche" or "The Channel" because they are between Paris and London, but I'd be also in favor of "Paris II"

88 and 89 weren't written for Paris. "Paris II" is appropriate for 90-92.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2020, 11:30:29 PM
They might not have been written explicitly for Paris but there is a Paris connection for 88+89 as well. Supposedly Tost travelled to Paris in 1788 with these symphonies and the quartets op.54/55 to sell them to the Paris editor Siebert. It's not exactly clear to me from (German) wikipedia what Tost did, he might have ripped off Haydn or the editor or both and might have sold the symphonies to Artaria in Wien as well where they appeared first.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/88._Sinfonie_(Haydn)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 15, 2020, 01:16:18 AM
Ah yes, I did know the Tost connection but had forgotten where he wandered off to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Carxofes fregides on December 21, 2020, 05:44:39 AM
Chopin's Ballade No. 1 should absolutely be called the Stockhausen Ballade.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on December 21, 2020, 06:04:26 AM
The 2nd movement of Schumann's "Rhenish" symphony sounds like it was written for a John Wayne western movie. I could never stomach that particular movement, even though I do love that symphony overall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on December 21, 2020, 07:27:15 AM
René Leibowitz kinda had a point concering Sibelius... >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 08:16:56 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on December 21, 2020, 06:04:26 AM
The 2nd movement of Schumann's "Rhenish" symphony sounds like it was written for a John Wayne western movie. I could never stomach that particular movement, even though I do love that symphony overall.

I live a kilometer from the Rhine and every time I walk the shoreline or cross the bridge over the river, Schumann's theme pops into my head. I love it. I never associated the theme with a Hollywood western though. But now that you mention it, it actually does sound a bit like one. That's not a negative connotation to me  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 08:21:28 AM
Quote from: ritter on December 21, 2020, 07:27:15 AM
René Leibowitz kinda had a point concering Sibelius... >:D


(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)       RITTER
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on December 21, 2020, 09:13:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 08:16:56 AM
I live a kilometer from the Rhine and every time I walk the shoreline or cross the bridge over the river, Schumann's theme pops into my head. I love it. I never associated the theme with a Hollywood western though. But now that you mention it, it actually does sound a bit like one. That's not a negative connotation to me  8)

Sarge

Thank you for sparing me the machine gun.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on December 21, 2020, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 08:16:56 AM
I live a kilometer from the Rhine and every time I walk the shoreline or cross the bridge over the river, Schumann's theme pops into my head. I love it. I never associated the theme with a Hollywood western though. But now that you mention it, it actually does sound a bit like one. That's not a negative connotation to me  8)
The second movement is supposed to be a rural dance or so, representing Rhenish cheerfulness. If anything, I'd say that some passages in the more heroic first movement are fit for a western. But there is other classical music much closer, e.g. the last movement from Hindemith's metamorphoses (basically the cavalry coming in...) or quite a bit in the finale of Tchaikovsky's 5th, even parts of the finale of Brahms 3rd would be better candidates for me. (It's not a negative for me either.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on December 21, 2020, 09:21:32 AM
Quote from: ritter on December 21, 2020, 07:27:15 AM
René Leibowitz kinda had a point concering Sibelius... >:D

Well, about a century after he made his point Sibelius' music is as popular as ever with both audiences and musicians, major conductors, major orchestras and major performers playing his music in major venues or recording it for major labels, while Leibowitz's own music is an absolute non-entity in both concert repertoires and recording catalogues.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 21, 2020, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 08:21:28 AM

(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)       RITTER

Quote from: Florestan on December 21, 2020, 09:21:32 AM
Well, about a century after he made his point Sibelius' music is as popular as ever with both audiences and musicians, major conductors, major orchestras and major performers playing his music in major venues or recording it for major labels, while Leibowitz's own music is an absolute non-entity in both concert repertoires and recording catalogues.  ;D

I support this.  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on December 21, 2020, 09:56:43 AM
Yes, one doesn't expect a big breakthrough for Leibowitz's music among the public. I once had a CD with chamber music, but culled it, finding it bland and anonymous. The funny thing is though, that members of the younger French avant-garde generation took up Sibelius and found him an essential and inspirational 20th-century figure.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pjme on December 21, 2020, 10:04:50 AM
OK, ok - still, one can dislike a work by Sibelius.
The violin concerto....just ugly!  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on December 21, 2020, 12:18:13 PM
Quote from: pjme on December 21, 2020, 10:04:50 AM
OK, ok - still, one can dislike a work by Sibelius.
The violin concerto....just ugly!  :P

You don't want to start that one again. The rage induced in one member...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pjme on December 21, 2020, 01:06:57 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 21, 2020, 12:18:13 PM
You don't want to start that one again. The rage induced in one member...

I will use all my magical and heathen powers to prevent rage. And will retreat then in strict confinement and chastise myself.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 03:49:37 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on December 21, 2020, 09:13:24 AM
Thank you for sparing me the machine gun.  :D

Since you like four of the five movements, I decided to spare you this time  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 03:58:50 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 21, 2020, 09:15:57 AM
The second movement is supposed to be a rural dance or so, representing Rhenish cheerfulness. If anything, I'd say that some passages in the more heroic first movement are fit for a western. But there is other classical music much closer, e.g. the last movement from Hindemith's metamorphoses (basically the cavalry coming in...) or quite a bit in the finale of Tchaikovsky's 5th, even parts of the finale of Brahms 3rd would be better candidates for me. (It's not a negative for me either.)

I'll have to listen to those works with your words in mind to see if I can hear what you're saying.

Sarge
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on December 21, 2020, 04:01:53 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2020, 03:49:37 PM
Since you like four of the five movements, I decided to spare you this time  ;D

Sarge

Thank you again. Rest assured, I think very highly of Schumann's symphonies as a whole! 🙂
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on December 31, 2020, 02:52:02 PM
Nielsen's Clarinet Concerto is better than Mozart's
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Irons on January 01, 2021, 12:32:40 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 31, 2020, 02:52:02 PM
Nielsen's Clarinet Concerto is better than Mozart's

Finzi's is better then Nielsen's. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on January 01, 2021, 01:33:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 31, 2020, 02:52:02 PM
Nielsen's Clarinet Concerto is better than Mozart's

But there are many more good recorded performances of the latter than the former (perhaps most clarinettists think they can play the Nielsen when they really can't).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on January 02, 2021, 10:09:40 AM
Quote from: DaveF on January 01, 2021, 01:33:33 AM
But there are many more good recorded performances of the latter than the former (perhaps most clarinettists think they can play the Nielsen when they really can't).

Interesting, since it's the opposite experience for me ... bland Mozarts versus lively and varied Nielsens  ;D

Of course, Nielsen, Weber 1st, Mozart and Finzi are the best ones ...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 02, 2021, 11:23:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 31, 2020, 02:52:02 PM
Nielsen's Clarinet Concerto is better than Mozart's

Not unpopular to me. Actually, Nielsen's concerto is the best one ever. An imaginative and original creation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 02, 2021, 11:34:59 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 01, 2021, 12:32:40 AM
Finzi's is better then Nielsen's. ;)

Now, this is unpopular.  :D

Finzi's would come second or third in my list, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 02, 2021, 11:30:14 PM
I could agree that the Nielsen concerto has a considerably higher within Nielsen's oeuvre than Mozart's. Very few people would claim that the clarinet concerto is Mozart's best concerto (I'd say it is his best concerto for only one instrument that is not the piano ;)) whereas it justifiedly seems the favorite among Nielsen's concertos.

My favorite 20th century clarinet concerto is the Ebony concerto, I think...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Irons on January 03, 2021, 01:41:19 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 02, 2021, 11:34:59 AM
Now, this is unpopular.  :D

Finzi's would come second or third in my list, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2021, 02:08:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 31, 2020, 02:52:02 PM
Nielsen's Clarinet Concerto is better than Mozart's
Quote from: Irons on January 01, 2021, 12:32:40 AM
Finzi's is better then Nielsen's. ;)

Why rank them at all when you can just love them all?  0:) The best clarinet concerto doesn't exist, because Elgar didn't write one!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on January 03, 2021, 02:54:01 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on December 14, 2020, 01:59:38 AM
Time for a democratization in such titling matters, for sure.

There's a 'Liverpool Oratorio', but no Croydon, s'-Hertogenbosch, or Nyiregyhaza stuff ..

There's a Lofoten Oratorio:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51uR%2BHIa0mL._SX342_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

(https://storage.googleapis.com/tsg-production/2020/01/d43bf65e-lofoten-norway-hgr-138060.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pjme on January 03, 2021, 03:54:12 AM
And Detlev Glanert's Requiem was composed for 's Hertogenbosch most famous historical citizen, Hieronymus Bosch.

(https://media.s-bol.com/NxGEARjzK0GN/550x550.jpg)

And there's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_Nyiregyh%C3%A1zi
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DaveF on January 03, 2021, 05:01:51 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on January 02, 2021, 10:09:40 AM
Interesting, since it's the opposite experience for me ... bland Mozarts versus lively and varied Nielsens  ;D

I have a very intense and long-lasting relationship with the Nielsen concerto - my life partner, you might call it.  When I got my first clarinet, at the age of 15, I bought at the same time the piano edition of the concerto.  I remember the assistant in Taphouse's in Oxford, who obviously knew his stuff, commenting "That's certainly something to aspire to, sir."  Since then I've failed to master the solo part, and was recently within a few weeks of playing the snare-drum part in a concert, before the orchestra (not the soloist) got cold feet.  I have also typeset the whole score in Sibelius, out of sheer fascination with it.  I'm not suggesting for a minute that this gives my opinions of the piece any special status, but it does make me awfully hard to please with regard to performances.  I think I have finally settled on my 2 favourites, so what I plan to do... sometime this year... is a Hurwitz-style review on this very forum (no video, don't panic, Hurwitz is George Clooney compared to me, I promise you) along the lines of BBC Radio 3's Building a Library, comparing the available versions.  I've just got a fair number left to listen to, after which pen will start hitting paper, or fingers keyboard.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on January 03, 2021, 05:46:40 AM
Quote from: pjme on January 03, 2021, 03:54:12 AM
And Detlev Glanert's Requiem was composed for 's Hertogenbosch most famous historical citizen, Hieronymus Bosch.

Before he emigrated to the US and became a hotshot detective?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2021, 10:05:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2021, 02:08:59 AM
Why rank them at all when you can just love them all?  0:)

Perfectly true, so we may say that the opinion is not popular with you for yet another reason 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2021, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: DaveF on January 03, 2021, 05:01:51 AM
I have a very intense and long-lasting relationship with the Nielsen concerto - my life partner, you might call it.  When I got my first clarinet, at the age of 15, I bought at the same time the piano edition of the concerto.  I remember the assistant in Taphouse's in Oxford, who obviously knew his stuff, commenting "That's certainly something to aspire to, sir."  Since then I've failed to master the solo part, and was recently within a few weeks of playing the snare-drum part in a concert, before the orchestra (not the soloist) got cold feet.  I have also typeset the whole score in Sibelius, out of sheer fascination with it.  I'm not suggesting for a minute that this gives my opinions of the piece any special status, but it does make me awfully hard to please with regard to performances.  I think I have finally settled on my 2 favourites, so what I plan to do... sometime this year... is a Hurwitz-style review on this very forum (no video, don't panic, Hurwitz is George Clooney compared to me, I promise you) along the lines of BBC Radio 3's Building a Library, comparing the available versions.  I've just got a fair number left to listen to, after which pen will start hitting paper, or fingers keyboard.

Very nice!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on January 03, 2021, 10:25:38 AM
Indeed. Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Iota on January 03, 2021, 10:30:38 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 03, 2021, 10:25:38 AM
Indeed. Looking forward to it!

+1
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2021, 09:29:53 AM
If this thread were in the Diner:

This is practically heresy in Mass.,  but I can really do without Jas Taylor.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 05, 2021, 01:09:27 PM
Dvorak should have orchestrated the Slavonic Dances with like 85% less triangle and cymbals.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 05, 2021, 01:25:54 PM
Maybe he just shouldn't have orchestrated them... yes I trumped your unpopular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 05, 2021, 01:38:26 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 05, 2021, 01:09:27 PM
Dvorak should have orchestrated the Slavonic Dances with like 85% less triangle and cymbals.

It should apply to music by Verdi, Rossini et al too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2021, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: Madiel on January 05, 2021, 01:25:54 PM
Maybe he just shouldn't have orchestrated them... yes I trumped your unpopular opinion.

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2021, 02:45:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 05, 2021, 01:09:27 PM
Dvorak should have orchestrated the Slavonic Dances with like 85% less triangle and cymbals.

How about this for an unpopular opinion: I enjoy Slavonic Rhapsodies more than Slavonic Dances.  :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 05, 2021, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 05, 2021, 01:38:26 PM
It should apply to music by Verdi, Rossini et al too.
That version of the Barber of Seville overture without any percussion is so much better. (Elisabetta Reina de Inghliterra or however it's spelled)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 05, 2021, 11:30:21 PM
Quote from: Madiel on January 05, 2021, 01:25:54 PM
Maybe he just shouldn't have orchestrated them... yes I trumped your unpopular opinion.

I think the Slavonic dances are considerably improved by the orchestration whereas I am rather doubtful in the case of Brahms' Hungarian dances (in any case for the latter I prefer the piano 4 hand version) and a pianist who played both somewhat agreed (he didn't really judge the instrumentation but said that the Brahms was more pianistic and effective, not that surprisingly so as Dvorak was not a virtuoso pianist).
I am not the biggest fan of triangle and especially not cymbals but can accept them in this kind of music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 05, 2021, 11:37:47 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 05, 2021, 11:30:21 PM
I think the Slavonic dances are considerably improved by the orchestration whereas I am rather doubtful in the case of Brahms' Hungarian dances (in any case for the latter I prefer the piano 4 hand version) and a pianist who played both somewhat agreed (he didn't really judge the instrumentation but said that the Brahms was more pianistic and effective, not that surprisingly so as Dvorak was not a virtuoso pianist).
I am not the biggest fan of triangle and especially not cymbals but can accept them in this kind of music.

Well, the performance of the piano version on Supraphon is wonderful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 12, 2021, 11:21:36 PM
There is nothing wrong with the piano version of the Slavonic dances (I have Köhn/Matthies on Naxos) but I think there is a considerable gain in the orchestral version.

"Blue Rondo à la Turk" is a more gripping and more interesting piece than "Take Five" (I am not really a Jazz person, so maybe this is not even unpopular)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 01:17:44 AM
Wagner's Siegfried is a bum numbing bore. He should have taken scissors to it and cut it down to a decent hour and a half. Last time I sat through it I could not wait for it to end. I don't feel this way about any other mature Wagner. I once expressed this view on Twitter to a very friendly guy I had been exchanging views with for a year or so. He immediately blocked me, no discussion.

So, my unpopular opinion, Wagner needed a good editor.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on January 13, 2021, 01:31:47 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 01:17:44 AM
Wagner's Siegfried is a bum numbing bore. He should have taken scissors to it and cut it down to a decent hour and a half. Last time I sat through it I could not wait for it to end. I don't feel this way about any other mature Wagner. I once expressed this view on Twitter to a very friendly guy I had been exchanging views with for a year or so. He immediately blocked me, no discussion.

So, my unpopular opinion, Wagner needed a good editor.

Mike
Mmmm...I was about to put you on my ignore list after reading this, but....I forgive you  ;) ;D

Strangely, I felt that way about Siegfried too, but the last time I saw it live (Bayreuth 2014), I actually thooght "Wow! Some of the best passages in the whole Ring are actually in Siegfried". Now that's probably the really unpopular opinion.  :D

Regards,
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 13, 2021, 01:40:54 AM
I have seen only two Wagner pieces in the theater, Parsifal and Siegfried. It was probably due to my inexperience but Parsifal was more of a chore (despite Barenboim in Berlin opera, with I think Waltraud Meier as Kundry, ca. 1994) than Siegfried (which I saw in Bonn around 2000). I had listened to the Solti Siegfried in preparation and had found it mighty long but it was surprisingly good, although still mighty long. The music is really good and saves even a "recap" scene like the riddle game with Mime and the Wanderer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 01:53:29 AM
Quote from: ritter on January 13, 2021, 01:31:47 AM
Mmmm...I was about to put you on my ignore list after reading this, but....I forgive you  ;) ;D

Strangely, I felt that way about Siegfried too, but the last time I saw it live (Bayreuth 2014), I actually thooght "Wow! Some of the best passages in the whole Ring are actually in Siegfried". Now that's probably the really unpopular opinion.  :D

Regards,

I agree there are great bits, I won't use that overworked Mark Twain quote. But although there is some action in the opera, more than in Parsifal for example, I find the grinding slowness really too much. Wagner has this habit of explaining something, then repeating it twice. It is an ancient precept, often used in the Bible I gather. Even as highlights it would last longer than Tosca, and that would be just fine. And I don't mind if purists are writhing  on the ground frothing at the mouth. I will be off for a drink with the time gained.

On Parsifal, I found it a tough nut to crack, but eventually I became somewhat addicted to it. In the wrong hands it can weigh like lead, but with a good conductor, I revel in it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Biffo on January 13, 2021, 02:40:33 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 01:53:29 AM
I agree there are great bits, I won't use that overworked Mark Twain quote. But although there is some action in the opera, more than in Parsifal for example, I find the grinding slowness really too much. Wagner has this habit of explaining something, then repeating it twice. It is an ancient precept, often used in the Bible I gather. Even as highlights it would last longer than Tosca, and that would be just fine. And I don't mind if purists are writhing  on the ground frothing at the mouth. I will be off for a drink with the time gained.

On Parsifal, I found it a tough nut to crack, but eventually I became somewhat addicted to it. In the wrong hands it can weigh like lead, but with a good conductor, I revel in it.

I have never heard Parsifal live and now never expect to, I would be asleep long before the end of Act I. I have managed to sit through most of Solti's recording but never in one sitting. I have a Karajan recording I haven't even attempted.

I have gradually got attuned to Siegfried over the years and always found Act III magnificent.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 02:52:42 AM
Biffo, I think it is horses for courses for Parsifal, you may make more headway with Karajan than with Solti. Some think Karajan erred on the side of prioritising tonal beauty, but I enjoy the performance a lot. My first choice is Kubelik, but I am not suggesting yet a third set to you when you have two.

If you have Streaming, then Abbado produced a Wagner disc which had about half an hour of Parsifal in a suite, just the orchestra, it might be a way into listening to more of it. The first time I heard it it really made me sit up. It avoids the bleeding chunks category. It also has some Tannhauser and Tristan on it.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on January 13, 2021, 03:00:02 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 01:17:44 AM
Wagner's Siegfried is a bum numbing bore.

It may be an equally or greater unpopular opinion that Siegfried has always been my favourite of The Ring.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Biffo on January 13, 2021, 03:28:10 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 02:52:42 AM
Biffo, I think it is horses for courses for Parsifal, you may make more headway with Karajan than with Solti. Some think Karajan erred on the side of prioritising tonal beauty, but I enjoy the performance a lot. My first choice is Kubelik, but I am not suggesting yet a third set to you when you have two.

If you have Streaming, then Abbado produced a Wagner disc which had about half an hour of Parsifal in a suite, just the orchestra, it might be a way into listening to more of it. The first time I heard it it really made me sit up. It avoids the bleeding chunks category. It also has some Tannhauser and Tristan on it.

Mike

Thanks for your response. I am a great admirer of Kubelik but don't think I will risk another complete recording until I have tried Karajan and I need to be in the right frame of mind for the complete work.

I have a disc of Kempe conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in the Prelude and Good Friday Music - it is absolutely ravishing. I also have the Abbado disc you mentioned  but haven't heard it for a while - possibly time to revisit both discs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 03:42:11 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 13, 2021, 03:28:10 AM
Thanks for your response. I am a great admirer of Kubelik but don't think I will risk another complete recording until I have tried Karajan and I need to be in the right frame of mind for the complete work.

I have a disc of Kempe conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in the Prelude and Good Friday Music - it is absolutely ravishing. I also have the Abbado disc you mentioned  but haven't heard it for a while - possibly time to revisit both discs.

Listening to bits and then expanding that to scenes or acts was how I got into some of Wagner!s work. As a method it words ok for Opera, but it has never occurred to me to listen to one movement of a Mahler or Bruckner Symphony. I swallowed them whole. I hope you enjoy the Abbado.

Mike
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on January 13, 2021, 05:15:28 AM
While I have some exceptions, I am satisfied with one recording of a work.

Time on this earth and money (but mostly time) are also factors.

If your collection is so large that you cannot listen to all the recordings within a year (not to mention repeated listening) I feel it is too much music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 13, 2021, 02:00:56 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 13, 2021, 05:15:28 AM
While I have some exceptions, I am satisfied with one recording of a work.

Time on this earth and money (but mostly time) are also factors.

If your collection is so large that you cannot listen to all the recordings within a year (not to mention repeated listening) I feel it is too much music.

The popularity of this opinion on GMG might not be representative of the wider public.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on January 13, 2021, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 12, 2021, 11:21:36 PM
"Blue Rondo à la Turk" is a more gripping and more interesting piece than "Take Five" (I am not really a Jazz person, so maybe this is not even unpopular)
The live "Take Five" performances are all better than the studio one, which was recorded when they were still lacking the needed confidence and swagger to play it with more feeling.

I also like Time Further Out, as an album, more than Time Out.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on January 14, 2021, 12:52:54 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 13, 2021, 05:15:28 AM
While I have some exceptions, I am satisfied with one recording of a work.

Time on this earth and money (but mostly time) are also factors.

If your collection is so large that you cannot listen to all the recordings within a year (not to mention repeated listening) I feel it is too much music.
Very reasonable.
I'd argue that as long as it is theoretically possible to play all recordings within one year (i.e. playing time < 8760 hours) it's o.k. :D
It's cheating of course because one has to sleep, but even 16 hours/day gives almost 6000 hours (corresponding to roughly 6000 CDs, I think I am still a little bit below that). Admittedly a more realistic value for listening is probably 20 discs per week (2 each workday and 10 on the weekend and holidays), giving around 1000 discs.
I once estimated that around 1000 discs would be the minimum for me if I wanted to own all the music important to me. Of course this was before the age of streaming and youtube. (But I think this is also cheating a bit. One cannot simply assume that these options will always be possible, we only needed a historically small relapse to the technical infrastructure of 25 year ago to render youtube and streaming almost impossible.)


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AlberichUndHagen on January 14, 2021, 09:41:49 AM
I've always liked both Siegfried and Parsifal but out of Siegfried's 3 acts I actually like the 3rd act least - which must also be unpopular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on January 14, 2021, 09:45:06 AM
Quote from: AlberichUndHagen on January 14, 2021, 09:41:49 AM
I've always liked both Siegfried and Parsifal but out of Siegfried's 3 acts I actually like the 3rd act least - which must also be unpopular opinion.

Even though I like Siegfried, I do like act 3 the least, similar to you. I like the 2nd act the most.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: AlberichUndHagen on January 14, 2021, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 14, 2021, 09:45:06 AM
I like the 2nd act the most.

Same here.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on January 14, 2021, 11:04:08 AM
I had to go check, because I've only seen the Ring cycle once.

But Siegfried and Brunnhilde singing love at each other bored me witless.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 14, 2021, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Madiel on January 14, 2021, 11:04:08 AM
I had to go check, because I've only seen the Ring cycle once.

But Siegfried and Brunnhilde singing love at each other bored me witless.

Time to loop in:

https://www.youtube.com/v/8wbi9q-tV8Q
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 14, 2021, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Madiel on January 14, 2021, 11:04:08 AM
I had to go check, because I've only seen the Ring cycle once.

But Siegfried and Brunnhilde singing love at each other bored me witless.

Wagner is THE most overrated bore in the whole history of Western music.

Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on January 14, 2021, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 14, 2021, 11:16:40 AM
Wagner is THE most overrated bore in the whole history of Western music.

Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders.

All in all, I don't think this qualifies as an "unpopular opinion"  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on January 16, 2021, 10:28:01 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 14, 2021, 11:16:40 AM
Wagner is THE most overrated bore in the whole history of Western music.

???
:(
:'(...

  ;),

LKB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on January 16, 2021, 04:01:11 PM
There should be more recordings of Renaissance & early Baroque music on modern piano.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on January 17, 2021, 01:31:00 AM
Quote from: amw on January 16, 2021, 04:01:11 PM
There should be more recordings of Renaissance & early Baroque music on modern piano.

Very much so, cf. for example Pienaar playing Gibbons ... there'd be many options for a creative approach in such works.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on January 19, 2021, 06:19:53 AM
The A major second string quartet has become my current favourite of Shostakovich's string quartets.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 15, 2021, 02:52:55 PM
Bach's solo organ works are better than the ones for harpsichord.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: foxandpeng on August 15, 2021, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 19, 2021, 06:19:53 AM
The A major second string quartet has become my current favourite of Shostakovich's string quartets.

I share your opinion. Does that disqualify it as unpopular?

SQs #2, and #10 in that order, followed by the rest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 15, 2021, 03:16:30 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on August 15, 2021, 03:04:48 PM
I share your opinion. Does that disqualify it as unpopular?

SQs #2, and #10 in that order, followed by the rest.

Why should it? A perfectly valid statement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: foxandpeng on August 15, 2021, 03:47:30 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 15, 2021, 03:16:30 PM
Why should it? A perfectly valid statement.

Ah, if two of us hold such an opinion, it is gaining popularity 😁
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 15, 2021, 04:09:13 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on August 15, 2021, 03:47:30 PM
Ah, if two of us hold such an opinion, it is gaining popularity 😁

Indeed!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 15, 2021, 07:39:04 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on August 15, 2021, 03:47:30 PM
Ah, if two of us hold such an opinion, it is gaining popularity 😁

Trends and percentages measure different things...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on August 16, 2021, 05:29:01 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 15, 2021, 02:52:55 PM
Bach's solo organ works are better than the ones for harpsichord.

Sacrilege!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 16, 2021, 09:58:51 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 16, 2021, 05:29:01 AM
Sacrilege!

Ok, let's exclude Well-Tempered Clavier and the Goldberg Variations.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2021, 11:59:41 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 17, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
I like Ravel's Bolero.


I still like Bolero.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on August 17, 2021, 02:06:35 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2021, 11:59:41 AM

I still like Bolero.

I really like the Boléro too, though it's far from my favorite of Ravel's works.

P.S. Love the Twin Peaks avatar.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on August 17, 2021, 02:45:42 PM
Quote from: amw on January 16, 2021, 04:01:11 PM
There should be more recordings of Renaissance & early Baroque music on modern piano.

There should be more recordings of Romantic piano music on Hammond organ.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 17, 2021, 06:24:06 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 17, 2021, 02:45:42 PM
There should be more recordings of Romantic piano music on Hammond organ.

There's unpopular, and then there's deranged.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Iota on August 18, 2021, 02:29:20 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 17, 2021, 02:45:42 PM
There should be more recordings of Romantic piano music on Hammond organ.

Haha, I realise this is a protest, but I'm game! Recommendations please!  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: T. D. on August 18, 2021, 03:12:55 AM
Quote from: Iota on August 18, 2021, 02:29:20 AM
Haha, I realise this is a protest, but I'm game! Recommendations please!  8)

I don't love the sound of the Hammond B3, but I'm game for recommendations on Fender Rhodes. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Carlo Gesualdo on August 18, 2021, 05:46:47 AM
I post about, Mister Howard Beale in the movie the network 1976 it was shredded, I think mister Beale is speaking  honnest, not a madman on psychosis. This was my unpopular Opinion?

I love The network fantastic movie from 1976 Micheal Holden  his giving it all he can, his persona is incredible confrontational, I like the guy, I''m sorry  :( :'(

Sometime I feel like mister Beale an old nagger, geezer revolted, is it so wrong and abject  ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 18, 2021, 08:27:27 AM
Classical music lovers (probably an unnecessary qualification, as this probably never happens out among the "laity") in 2021 who get off on bashing Schoenberg are in a time warp of their own luxuriance, and need a damned hobby.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2021, 08:42:03 AM
Didn't some Art Rock bands in the 1970s (ab)use Beethoven and Mussorgsky? They probably used a Hammond or similar contraption.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: fbjim on August 18, 2021, 08:55:51 AM
I stop listening to the Eroica after the funeral march most of the time. I am very much not one of the enlightened souls who understands the finale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2021, 09:05:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2021, 08:27:27 AM
Classical music lovers (probably an unnecessary qualification, as this probably never happens out among the "laity") in 2021 who get off on bashing Schoenberg are in a time warp of their own luxuriance, and need a damned hobby.

lol that is like 90% of concert goers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2021, 09:20:20 AM
Quote from: fbjim on August 18, 2021, 08:55:51 AM
I stop listening to the Eroica after the funeral march most of the time. I am very much not one of the enlightened souls who understands the finale.

It's not supposed to be understood but to be listened to.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: fbjim on August 18, 2021, 09:25:22 AM
I'm one of those guys who uses "don't understand" as a polite euphemism for "I didn't like it", hah
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 18, 2021, 12:34:38 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 17, 2021, 02:06:35 PM
I really like the Boléro too, though it's far from my favorite of Ravel's works.

P.S. Love the Twin Peaks avatar.

Yes, I agree.

And thank you!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2021, 01:08:08 PM
I love the Eroica finale, even as a teenager more than 30 years ago I found this less difficult than the long first movement and funeral march. It's a unique piece and I think it works well in practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vZ1I122JNo
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on August 18, 2021, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 18, 2021, 08:42:03 AM
Didn't some Art Rock bands in the 1970s (ab)use Beethoven and Mussorgsky? They probably used a Hammond or similar contraption.

I had a similar thought; I know Rick Wakeman plays the scherzo of Brahms's 4th on some kind of electric keyboard for the album Fragile by his old band Yes, but I don't think it's a Hammond.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2021, 11:07:37 AM
Quote from: fbjim on August 18, 2021, 08:55:51 AM
I stop listening to the Eroica after the funeral march most of the time. I am very much not one of the enlightened souls who understands the finale.
Welcome to GMG! Good unpopular opinion to start with.

For my part, I think the finale is a lot of fun, but I do acknowledge that after the first half of the symphony, it is weird to have a fun finale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on August 19, 2021, 01:24:31 PM
It is like a slap in the face after the funeral march to suddenly jump into the finale.  I imagine that there is a pause between movements when played live.  At least the local orchestra here pauses between movement except when they are expected to immediately jump in to the next.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2021, 01:45:47 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 19, 2021, 01:24:31 PM
It is like a slap in the face after the funeral march to suddenly jump into the finale.  I imagine that there is a pause between movements when played live.
There's even a whole scherzo between them!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: amw on August 19, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: fbjim on August 18, 2021, 08:55:51 AM
I stop listening to the Eroica after the funeral march most of the time. I am very much not one of the enlightened souls who understands the finale.
I only like the first and third movements of the Eroica. Not a fan of the funeral march and finale, the latter in particular always feeling four or five minutes longer than it should be.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on August 20, 2021, 05:06:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 19, 2021, 01:45:47 PM
There's even a whole scherzo between them!

oops I mean into the scherzo not the finale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 29, 2021, 08:46:17 PM
Scriabin's orchestral music is much more engaging and interesting than his solo piano music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Carlo Gesualdo on August 30, 2021, 12:46:44 PM
Mozart according to Hollywood movie was  on pot and hash, that why the actor whom play Mozart In brilliant movie Amadeus was laughting almost everytime  :laugh: , Mozart was a stoner?

Johann Sebastian Bach was hook on cacao, the man love Chocolate it was is drug, this would explain why he was overweight?  ???

These were my unpopular opinions?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: steve ridgway on August 30, 2021, 09:45:10 PM
Quote from: deprofundis on August 30, 2021, 12:46:44 PM
Johann Sebastian Bach was hook on cacao, the man love Chocolate it was is drug, this would explain why he was overweight?

Not if it was near 100% cocoa back then rather than the cheap sugary stuff. :-\
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 30, 2021, 11:21:50 PM
I thought for Bach it was tobacco and coffee? Or did he poke fun at the coffee drinkers because he preferred either hot chocolate (in the 18th century, "chocolate" would always be the drink, there was no bar chocolate until the late 19th century or so) or rather wine?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Biffo on August 31, 2021, 01:52:39 AM
Quote from: deprofundis on August 30, 2021, 12:46:44 PM
Mozart according to Hollywood movie was  on pot and hash, that why the actor whom play Mozart In brilliant movie Amadeus was laughting almost everytime  :laugh: , Mozart was a stoner?

Johann Sebastian Bach was hook on cacao, the man love Chocolate it was is drug, this would explain why he was overweight?  ???

These were my unpopular opinions?  :laugh:

I presume you mean Amadeus - it is a highly entertaining movie but don't expect to learn anything factual about Mozart or Salieri from it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on August 31, 2021, 02:59:21 AM
I seem to remember from a biography that he enjoyed spending his mornings drinking coffee and playing on his little clavichord.

Also Bach was known for huge amounts of walking and not just in his youth.  Bach was not actually corpulent, that is a myth.  It is also much harder for lower or middle class people to become overweight back then anyway.  They didn't have access to abundant junk food like we do now.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 31, 2021, 03:34:23 AM
On the portrait of the elderly Bach in the 1740s he does look portly. Not as huge as Handel or Scarlatti had supposedly become but not slim either.
They didn't have abundant junk food as we do but unlike the middle ages, the 18th century did have sugary foods and Bach was solidly middle class so sweet cakes, lots of butter etc. would have probably been among the modest luxuries a Lutheran cantor could afford and indulge in.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Artem on September 03, 2021, 04:40:01 AM
Would a person back in Bach time want to look bigger in a painting as a sign of upper class?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on September 03, 2021, 05:10:12 AM
Idk how popular are these two takes:

Messiaen demonstrates that knowledge has nothing to do with having a consistent taste.

Boulez better works are, with the exception of Notations for orchestra, neither the early nor the late but the middle (Le Marteau sans maître (1957) - Messagesquisse(1976))
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on September 03, 2021, 01:08:26 PM
Quote from: Uhor on September 03, 2021, 05:10:12 AM
Messiaen demonstrates that knowledge has nothing to do with having a consistent taste.

Care to elaborate on this?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on September 03, 2021, 02:25:37 PM
Basically, and this is my perception obviously, the same guy that gave us sublime pieces like the Quartet for the end of time also gave us the vulgar Turangalila and many pieces that contain both extremes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on September 03, 2021, 04:41:19 PM
Quote from: Uhor on September 03, 2021, 02:25:37 PM
Basically, and this is my perception obviously, the same guy that gave us sublime pieces like the Quartet for the end of time also gave us the vulgar Turangalila and many pieces that contain both extremes.

Ah, I see. It's true, he left behind a pretty diverse and varied body of work. What does this have to do with knowledge though?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: T. D. on September 03, 2021, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 03, 2021, 04:41:19 PM
Ah, I see. It's true, he left behind a pretty diverse and varied body of work. What does this have to do with knowledge though?
I may be inappropriately butting in, but...

I believe that Messiaen's oeuvre, influence, roster of students, ..., are evidence of his knowledge.
OTOH, one can find quotes by Morton Feldman and Pierre Boulez, for instance, alluding to examples where O. M.'s music exhibits poor taste.

Disclosure: I agree that Quatuor pour la fin du temps is sublime, but also am not fond of Turangalîla-Symphonie (among a few other works), which does strike me as lacking taste in some sense.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Uhor on September 04, 2021, 04:09:10 AM
^ That's pretty much it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on October 03, 2021, 08:34:32 AM
In spite of its flaws, I enjoy Quantum of Solace, and I always watch it as a follow-up to Casino Royale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: VonStupp on October 03, 2021, 08:54:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 03, 2021, 08:34:32 AM
In spite of its flaws, I enjoy Quantum of Solace, and I always watch it as a follow-up to Casino Royale.

Truly an unpopular opinion. I remember going to see Quantum in the theatre and being baffled that I had to remember characters and plot from a previous James Bond film, most of which I did not at the time and something I hadn't needed to do before. But serialized stories have been hot for a while now, so it seems par for the course anymore. I was just completely unprepared. I probably need to give it a revisit.

VS
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on October 03, 2021, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 31, 2021, 02:59:21 AM
I seem to remember from a biography that he enjoyed spending his mornings drinking coffee and playing on his little clavichord.

Also Bach was known for huge amounts of walking and not just in his youth.  Bach was not actually corpulent, that is a myth.  It is also much harder for lower or middle class people to become overweight back then anyway.  They didn't have access to abundant junk food like we do now.

Certainly not a subject I studied, and it may be an exaggerated point, but a few google searches reveal that an inn receipt from 1716 has been preserved, showing that he at least occasionally liked good, plentiful food and alcohol, like a lot of his contemporaries. His contract from 1708 included receiving 30 'Eimer' of beer from the local castle, a unit that is very flexible, but apparently mostly between 15-18 gallons each, or around 60-75 litres. The amount has probably been specified in biographies. Plus that it was not unusual for a man in the 17th century to drink 6-8 litres of beer on a daily basis, for women and children it was a lot too. Beer was a nutrition source and much cleaner than town water back then. There are no references to any beer in his works however.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on October 03, 2021, 09:19:54 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 03, 2021, 08:56:48 AM
Certainly not a subject I studied, and it may be an exaggerated point, but a few google searches reveal that an inn receipt from 1716 has been preserved, showing that he at least occasionally liked good, plentiful food and alcohol, like a lot of his contemporaries. His contract from 1708 included receiving 30 'Eimer' of beer from the local castle, a unit that is very flexible, but apparently mostly between 15-18 gallons each, or around 60-75 litres. The amount has probably been specified in biographies. Plus that it was not unusual for a man in the 17th century to drink 6-8 litres of beer on a daily basis, for women and children it was a lot too. Beer was a nutrition source and much cleaner than water back then. There are no references to any beer in his works however.

Damn, we could have used a beer cantata.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on October 03, 2021, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: VonStupp on October 03, 2021, 08:54:04 AM
Truly an unpopular opinion. I remember going to see Quantum in the theatre and being baffled that I had to remember characters and plot from a previous James Bond film, most of which I did not at the time and something I hadn't needed to do before. But serialized stories have been hot for a while now, so it seem par for the course anymore. I was just complete unprepared. I probably need to give it a revisit.

VS

The Daniel Craig movies did a much, much needed ~update to the genre, and I prefer those, together with Lazenby's somewhat darkly coloured, only one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on October 03, 2021, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 03, 2021, 09:19:54 AM
Damn, we could have used a beer cantata.

That would have been fun!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 03, 2021, 10:24:10 AM
Quote from: VonStupp on October 03, 2021, 08:54:04 AM
Truly an unpopular opinion. I remember going to see Quantum in the theatre and being baffled that I had to remember characters and plot from a previous James Bond film, most of which I did not at the time and something I hadn't needed to do before. But serialized stories have been hot for a while now, so it seems par for the course anymore. I was just completely unprepared. I probably need to give it a revisit.

VS

You need to "prepare" to watch a Bond movie?  ???
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: VonStupp on October 03, 2021, 11:03:03 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 03, 2021, 10:24:10 AM
You need to "prepare" to watch a Bond movie?  ???

Ha! ;D Yes, well, it has been 13 years, so pardon any mis-rememberings.

Quantum carried over a lot of plot points and character names (some dead) from the previous Casino Royale. Suffice to say, I didn't remember any of them from two years before, and I was mostly lost when watching in the theater. Of course, I didn't expect to have to remember previous plots or characters, because each Bond movie I had seen up to then had essentially been bottle episodes unto their own with no overlap. Cinematic universes were not quite a thing yet, either.

On the other hand, the movie was pretty and action-filled, so I expect I was still entertained.

VS
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on February 01, 2022, 03:41:10 PM
Pulcinella goes better without the singing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on February 01, 2022, 04:10:58 PM
Beethoven's op.70/2 piano trio is better than the 'Ghost'.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on February 01, 2022, 06:22:08 PM
I agree with that!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on February 01, 2022, 07:01:10 PM
amw does too, I think.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: ritter on February 01, 2022, 11:40:24 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 01, 2022, 03:41:10 PM
Pulcinella goes better without the singing.
Nooooooo !!!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on February 02, 2022, 01:48:00 AM
I also prefer op.70/2, I sometimes prefer it even to the "Archduke" although the slow movement of op.97 is superior. There's nothing wrong with op.70/1 but the discrepancy between this one and op.97 and the almost obscurity of 70/2 is baffling.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Crudblud on February 04, 2022, 06:28:42 AM
In a similar vein to Symphonic Addict's post, I much prefer L'histoire du soldat as an instrumental suite without the dramatic performance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on February 04, 2022, 07:13:30 AM
I prefer the old, " anachronistic " versions of both Pictures at an Exhibition and Night on Bare Mountain over the supposedly authentic versions currently in vogue.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on February 04, 2022, 08:04:50 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 01, 2022, 03:41:10 PM
Pulcinella goes better without the singing.

This is true of much music, not the least many operas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2022, 08:37:12 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 04, 2022, 08:04:50 AM
This is true of much music, not the least many operas.

For the life of me I can't understand why such strong and rather widespread dislike of singing here on GMG...  :o
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on February 04, 2022, 08:47:18 AM
Not sure if it applied to this forum but I think that a widespread dislike (or initial dislike) to classical singing comes from the fact that since the mid-20th century most of us grew up with popular crooning into a microphone. And of course live singing in school or so but this usually be laypeople without trained voices. So classical singing sounds strange, mannered and artificial in many cases to many listeners.

That said, there is no singing in the Soldier's Tale but recitation/acting. I think for the essential strangeness of this piece it is important not to have only the music (not familiar enough with the full version of Pulcinella incl. singing)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on February 04, 2022, 09:11:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 04, 2022, 08:04:50 AM
This is true of much music, not the least many operas.

The retired operatic baritone searched for an appropriate " facepalm " emote , but eventually was forced to settle for " shock ".

???,

LKB
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on February 04, 2022, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: LKB on February 04, 2022, 07:13:30 AM
I prefer the old, " anachronistic " versions of both Pictures at an Exhibition and Night on Bare Mountain over the supposedly authentic versions currently in vogue.

I prefer my Pictures on piano. Anything else is inherently inauthentic anyway. It's just whether it's traditionally inauthentic or newly inauthentic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mountain Goat on February 04, 2022, 01:19:32 PM
I prefer Bruch's 2nd violin concerto to the first, yet most people seem to be under the impression that he only wrote one. There's even a 3rd too, though I haven't heard it. Ditto Tchaikovsky's 2nd piano concerto.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on February 04, 2022, 03:05:57 PM
Yes, Bruch even composed one for two pianos and it's quite a fascinating creation.

I love his 1st VC because of the enchanting and tender slow movement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mountain Goat on February 04, 2022, 03:33:51 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 04, 2022, 03:05:57 PM
Yes, Bruch even composed one for two pianos and it's quite a fascinating creation.

I am aware of it, it's the only work I know of to be in A flat minor! Sadly I have yet to hear it in full, I heard it on the radio many years ago but minus its final movement - I assume they didn't realise it was in 4 movements and didn't bother to check  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on February 05, 2022, 05:23:40 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 04, 2022, 03:05:57 PM
Yes, Bruch even composed one for two pianos and it's quite a fascinating creation.

I love his 1st VC because of the enchanting and tender slow movement.
And the clarinet and viola concerto!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on February 05, 2022, 05:36:22 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 05, 2022, 05:23:40 AM
And the clarinet and viola concerto!

+1
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 08:31:08 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 04, 2022, 08:47:18 AM
Not sure if it applied to this forum but I think that a widespread dislike (or initial dislike) to classical singing comes from the fact that since the mid-20th century most of us grew up with popular crooning into a microphone. And of course live singing in school or so but this usually be laypeople without trained voices. So classical singing sounds strange, mannered and artificial in many cases to many listeners.

I think you do have a point. Singing and piano playing were once prerequisites for a thorough education of middle-class boys and girls, but those days are long since gone. Still, I'm shocked to see such prejudice against "classical" singing on GMG, which in every other way is a niche / elitiist internet board.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on February 05, 2022, 08:42:56 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 08:31:08 AM
I think you do have a point. Singing and piano playing were once prerequisites for a thorough education of middle-class boys and girls, but those days are long since gone. Still, I'm shocked to see such prejudice against "classical" singing on GMG, which in every other way is a niche / elitiist internet board.

I 'm not adverse to song as such, but the vocal music I listen to is mostly early music. What I can hardly take is the way opera has been sung for a long time with a screaming voice and wide vibrato. When Jesus in SMP and Sarastro in The Magic Flute sound like they were the flying Dutchman who has gone wrong, I've had enough. By the way, I'm not very interested in opera, and that's probably permissible for an electicist.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 08:51:24 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 05, 2022, 08:42:56 AM
When Jesus in SMP and Sarastro in The Magic Flute sound like they were the flying Dutchman who has gone wrong, I've had enough.

Examples, please.

QuoteI'm not very interested in opera

Not even Baroque opera?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on February 05, 2022, 10:40:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 08:51:24 AM
Examples, please.

A typical example, Otto Wiener here in the role of Christ:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Matth%E4us-Passion-BWV-244/hnum/2566937

In my youth my father often took me to concerts and also to the opera to widen my horizon, so as to Sarastro and The Flying Dutchman I heard at The Royal Opera, Copenhagen many years ago a notable Danish singer, Franz Anderson sing both roles in the same way, which means that he sang Sarastro like a Wagner role, with the for Wagner usually used, and for me intolerable, voice quality. I have not seriously explored The Magic Flute on disc.

Quote from: Florestan
Not even Baroque opera?

No, not really. There is so much other music which does much more for me than opera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 10:50:04 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 05, 2022, 10:40:05 AM
A typical example, Otto Wiener here in the role of Christ:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Matth%E4us-Passion-BWV-244/hnum/2566937

Arrrghhh!!!! Youtube or a streaming site, please.

QuoteIn my youth my father often took me to concerts and also to the opera to widen my horizon, so as to Sarastro and The Flying Dutchman I heard at The Royal Opera, Copenhagen many years ago a notable Danish singer, Franz Anderson sing both roles in the same way, which means that he sang Sarastro like a Wagner role, with the for Wagner usually used, and for me intolerable, voice quality.

OMG! That sounds like child abuse to me.  ;D

QuoteThere is so much other music which does much more for me than opera.

Nothing wrong with that, of course.


Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on February 05, 2022, 11:02:04 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 10:50:04 AM
Arrrghhh!!!! Youtube or a streaming site, please.

It doesn't seem to be on you tube, and streaming isn't my thing.

Quote from: Florestan
OMG! That sounds like child abuse to me.  ;D

He had the best intentions and did succeed in stimulating my interest in CM but not in opera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 11:11:44 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 05, 2022, 11:02:04 AM
He had the best intentions and did succeed in stimulating my interest in CM but not in opera.

Please rest assured I was not referring to your father --- I would not joke on anyone's family. I was referring to that guy Franz Anderson.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: premont on February 05, 2022, 11:35:22 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 11:11:44 AM
Please rest assured I was not referring to your father --- I would not joke on anyone's family. I was referring to that guy Franz Anderson.

Don't know about him. Btw I spelled his name wrongly, it was Frans Andersson.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on February 05, 2022, 11:37:37 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 05, 2022, 11:35:22 AM
I spelled his name wrongly, it was Frans Andersson.

Hah! I thought that much.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: The new erato on February 06, 2022, 01:09:29 AM
I think a recent post about N Jærvis inconsistency (how could it be otherwise with the large volume of varied music he recorded at high frequency) might belong here.

That doesn't mean I'm not thankful for the job he did with lots of neglected music.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on February 06, 2022, 01:31:46 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 06, 2022, 01:09:29 AM
I think a recent post about N Jærvis inconsistency (how could it be otherwise with the large volume of varied music he recorded at high frequency) might belong here.

Hmm. The thread is traditionally for opinions that are regarded as generally unpopular and not widely held, as opposed to opinions unpopular with a specific person...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on February 06, 2022, 04:56:07 PM
If Neeme Järvi being inconsistent is a widely held opinion, then my unpopular opinion is that he's damn good in nearly everything I've heard of his  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on February 10, 2022, 07:58:39 PM
Rob Simpson is a better symphonist than Havi Brian.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on February 10, 2022, 09:02:05 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 10, 2022, 07:58:39 PM
Rob Simpson is a better symphonist than Havi Brian.

I can't stand either one of them. :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on February 10, 2022, 09:40:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 10, 2022, 09:02:05 PM
I can't stand either one of them. :P

You said something similar about Schmitt, and now look at yourself, you're compiling a good deal of his music (which is splendid).

The moral seems to be: Never say never.  ;D :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: kyjo on February 12, 2022, 07:13:41 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 06, 2022, 01:09:29 AM
I think a recent post about N Jærvis inconsistency (how could it be otherwise with the large volume of varied music he recorded at high frequency) might belong here.

That doesn't mean I'm not thankful for the job he did with lots of neglected music.

All conductors/performers/composers have their off days, so it's totally natural that N. Jarvi, considering his immensely vast discography, would have his. My gratitude for the service he's done for neglected composers knows no bounds, even if I could imagine some of his interpretations being more subtle/nuanced/etc. Then again, I generally prefer quicker tempi and robustness in my performances, and Jarvi delivers that in spades!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rosalba on April 17, 2022, 12:26:19 PM
I may be British but I don't like Benjamin Britten, particularly his Simple Symphony. It seems too jolly and naff.

I dislike Schubert's Lieder. The men who sing them always sound like red-faced pompous fellows who've just eaten a sausage supper with some damn good ale.

Although I'm a Folkie and have spent time at Cecil Sharp House studying Ralph Vaughan Williams' transcriptions of folk songs he'd collected from Herefordshire gypsies (his handwriting was abominable) I don't much like RVW's works based on folk songs - they're too smooth and Hovis-advert for me. I'll need to keep this secret from my spouse as he loves these arrangements.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on April 17, 2022, 12:48:57 PM
Quote from: Rosalba on April 17, 2022, 12:26:19 PM
I dislike Schubert's Lieder. The men who sing them always sound like red-faced pompous fellows who've just eaten a sausage supper with some damn good ale.
They've probably eaten the Austrian analogue of a sausage supper with better sausage and probably even wine instead of ale! Not that there is anything wrong with that...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on April 17, 2022, 01:09:01 PM
Yeah, that sounds great!  ;D ;D

(Carolyn Sampson has a soprano arrangements Schubert song album if you're tempted by that.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on April 17, 2022, 01:23:13 PM
I usually prefer men in lieder and alto/mezzo to soprano for female voices. But there are lots of Schubert lieder for female voices (or either, like Erlkönig), even if the most famous cycles are originally (and probably best) for male voice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on April 17, 2022, 01:40:46 PM
My unpopular opinion is that organ music can be great stuff that doesn't have to be associated with church music nor the composer that dominated the field.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rosalba on April 18, 2022, 12:14:37 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 17, 2022, 01:40:46 PM
My unpopular opinion is that organ music can be great stuff that doesn't have to be associated with church music nor the composer that dominated the field.

I am not very fond of organ-on-its-own - it's just something about the sound which is too husky for me. I like the organ as an accompanying instrument, particularly for trumpet.

I am interested to know - which organ music are you thinking of when you made the above post? It would be nice to sample it. Thank you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Autolycus on April 18, 2022, 02:28:49 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 17, 2022, 01:40:46 PM
My unpopular opinion is that organ music can be great stuff that doesn't have to be associated with church music nor the composer that dominated the field.

Trouble is that apart from Wurlitzers,you only tend to find organs in churches. They're just too big to fit in the average lounge. That's why people used pedal harpsichords.

I'm trying to work out which composer really dominated the field - Sweelinck, Buxtehude, Bach, Messiaen. Suppose it has to be Sweelinck as he was responsible for developing the North German school.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 17, 2022, 01:40:46 PM
My unpopular opinion is that organ music can be great stuff that doesn't have to be associated with church music nor the composer that dominated the field.

As an atheist who keeps away from churches I have managed to de-associate* organ music. In the beginning of my exploration into classical music I thought organ music would be something I won't get into, but eventually I understood how foolish such an idea was. Organ music can sound so awesome and powerful! Epic, if you will.  0:)

* Doesn't mean breaking association of organ music with churches, but the association of organ music with negative aspects of religion, the root cause for having an issue with church music in the first place.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 03:01:47 AM
Quote from: Rosalba on April 17, 2022, 12:26:19 PM
I may be British but I don't like Benjamin Britten, particularly his Simple Symphony. It seems too jolly and naff.

Well, I am a Finn, but I am not too fond of Sibelius. Music in general isn't one of the aspects I admire much about Finnish culture. Fortunately the is a whole World of music to explore!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Rosalba on April 18, 2022, 04:15:59 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 03:01:47 AM
Well, I am a Finn, but I am not too fond of Sibelius. Music in general isn't one of the aspects I admire much about Finnish culture. Fortunately there is a whole World of music to explore!

I agree.
For example, I'm very fond of French Baroque, maybe fulfilling the assertion that 'Every man has two countries - his own, and France.' It's attributed to several people, but I've always wondered where that leaves French men. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on April 18, 2022, 05:27:00 AM
Quote from: Autolycus on April 18, 2022, 02:28:49 AM
Trouble is that apart from Wurlitzers,you only tend to find organs in churches.

As Poju said though just because you find organs in churches doesn't mean that one can only compose religious music for it.  I think that the organ sounds great, and its expression is limited if seen only in that narrow context.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: steve ridgway on April 18, 2022, 05:30:14 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 18, 2022, 05:27:00 AM
As Poju said though just because you find organs in churches doesn't mean that one can only compose religious music for it.  I think that the organ sounds great, and its expression is limited if seen only in that narrow context.

Ligeti - Volumina, Kagel - Improvisation Ajoutée, Ives - Variations on "America". :o
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 05:57:36 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 18, 2022, 05:27:00 AM
As Poju said though just because you find organs in churches doesn't mean that one can only compose religious music for it.  I think that the organ sounds great, and its expression is limited if seen only in that narrow context.

Most of the organ music I listen to and enjoy is religious music (by composers such as Weckmann, Buxtehude, Bruhns, J. S. Bach,...), but I also think the best things religions have to offer are:

- Stunning art (if you can appreciate it)
- Spiritual comfort and strength (if you are religious)

I am not religious, but I can appreciate stunning art. That's why enjoying religious music is not an issue for me. Of course I needed to learn to free my mind in this way, but I have listened to classical music for 25 years! I think it was 10-15 years ago when I noticed I enjoy great organ music a lot and there's zero problems with it being originally religious music. Baroque cantatas I have always loved for their versatile but intimate nature and beauty. When it comes to multichannel sound, church music has an advantage because of the reverberant acoustics: Multichannel SACDs of organ music for example can sound absolutely amazing!  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: steve ridgway on April 18, 2022, 08:27:43 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 05:57:36 AM
I am not religious, but I can appreciate stunning art. That's why enjoying religious music is not an issue for me.

Same here, there are for example a few requiems I now enjoy. 0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 08, 2022, 12:13:01 PM
I may be Italian, but I find Italian Opera quite boring (with very few exceptions).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 08, 2022, 12:40:48 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 08, 2022, 12:13:01 PM
I may be Italian, but I find Italian Opera quite boring (with very few exceptions).

I also find myself a bit out-of-step with my Italian-American heritage by having no interest in Italian Opera. However find myself very interested in Italian composers of orchestral music, particularly Malipiero, Casella and Petrassi.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 08, 2022, 12:50:09 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 08, 2022, 12:40:48 PM
I also find myself a bit out-of-step with my Italian-American heritage by having no interest in Italian Opera. However find myself very interested in Italian composers of orchestral music, particularly Malipiero, Casella and Petrassi.
Ditto, indeed a great favourite of mine is Ottorino Respighi.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Wanderer on May 09, 2022, 12:14:41 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 08, 2022, 12:13:01 PM
...(with very few exceptions).
*cliffhanger*

Such as?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 09, 2022, 01:23:13 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 09, 2022, 12:14:41 AM
*cliffhanger*

Such as?

Falstaff, Otello, Tosca and Madame Butterfly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brahmsian on May 09, 2022, 07:30:37 AM
Great C minor Mass > Requiem in D minor
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2022, 07:56:53 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on May 09, 2022, 07:30:37 AM
Great C minor Mass > Requiem in D minor
I agree. With some qualifications. They are both uneven works mostly but not only because of their state of incompletion and the Introitus (despite being strong indebted to both Handel's "Ways of Zion..." and Michael Haydn's Requiem) and maybe two more pieces of the Requiem I find more convincing than the c minor mass. But the Requiem is far more incomplete and more uneven than the c minor Mass.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on May 09, 2022, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on May 09, 2022, 07:30:37 AM
Great C minor Mass > Requiem in D minor

The Great c-minor Mass has suffered from a lot of rather poor recordings and performances, not giving the work sufficient justice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2022, 08:13:04 AM
I am not sure about that but I think it might be more demanding than the Requiem in some ways. One needs a great soprano, especially for the Et incarnatus, some of the ensemble pieces also need both virtuoso and homogeneous soloists and some of the choirs are 8 part double choirs although I don't know in which work the choir parts are more difficult.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on May 09, 2022, 08:21:53 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on May 09, 2022, 07:30:37 AM
Great C minor Mass > Requiem in D minor

I would say that they are on par with each other, but the Requiem is so overplayed that it is hard not to appreciate the C minor mass more.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 09, 2022, 08:42:23 AM
I find the Kyrie of the c-minor mass miraculous. I normally don't listen to the rest. In the Requiem, the Requiem aeternam and especially the Kyrie fugue are miraculous. I normally don't list to the rest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2022, 08:47:43 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 08, 2022, 12:50:09 PM
Ditto, indeed a great favourite of mine is Ottorino Respighi.

Respighi wrote some fine operas! For me, his opera Belfagor is one of his great masterpieces. You should definitely check it out along with La fiamma.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 09, 2022, 09:55:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2022, 08:47:43 AM
Respighi wrote some fine operas! For me, his opera Belfagor is one of his great masterpieces. You should definitely check it out along with La fiamma.

Yes, that's true, but he is best known for his symphonic music and anyway he was an eclectic composer (orchestral and chamber works, ballets, operas, etc). What I meant, he can't be considered an opera composer like Verdi.
Thank you for the suggestion, John, I know them, but I have never listened to those works.

On second thought, more than Italian Opera, I should have said Melodrama.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2022, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 09, 2022, 09:55:29 AM
Yes, that's true, but he is best known for his symphonic music and anyway he was an eclectic composer (orchestral and chamber works, ballets, operas, etc). What I meant, he can't be considered an opera composer like Verdi.
Thank you for the suggestion, John, I know them, but I have never listened to those works.

On second thought, more than Italian Opera, I should have said Melodrama.

He was rather eclectic, but I generally like composers who wore many different hats as long as they wrote within each genre convincingly, which I believe Respighi did. I think you'll enjoy the sound-world of Belfagor. It's a magical opera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on May 09, 2022, 10:20:55 PM
Most new music sucks a$$.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on May 10, 2022, 12:28:13 AM
Quote from: LKB on May 09, 2022, 10:20:55 PM
Most new music sucks a$$.

This has in fact been a VERY popular opinion for many centuries, only the definition of what counts as "new music" keeps getting revised by each succeeding generation.

Plus, a lot of what previously sucked is simply forgotten by the time anyone is doing the revising. I suspect the truth might actually be that a lot of MUSIC sucks a$$, and the main difference between new music and old music is that the new stuff hasn't had time for the crud to be filtered out.

But of course there's also stuff that is famous now that wasn't much liked when it was new.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 12:59:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2022, 07:28:47 PM
He was rather eclectic, but I generally like composers who wore many different hats as long as they wrote within each genre convincingly, which I believe Respighi did. I think you'll enjoy the sound-world of Belfagor. It's a magical opera.

Certainly, me too.  Thank you anyway, I'll try Belfagor after exploring Zemlinsky a little longer.  :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2022, 01:07:47 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 09, 2022, 09:55:29 AM
On second thought, more than Italian Opera, I should have said Melodrama.

A few examples would be helpful, Ilaria, please.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 01:42:07 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2022, 01:07:47 AM
A few examples would be helpful, Ilaria, please.

Well, about Italian Opera, despite many attempts, I have never been particularly interested in Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Leoncavallo, Mascagni and Verdi. Their music is not appealing to me, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2022, 01:44:19 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 01:42:07 AM
Well, about Italian Opera, despite many attempts, I have never been particularly interested in Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Leoncavallo, Mascagni and Verdi. Their music is not appealing to me, I'm sorry.

Okay, thanks --- but why calling them melodramas instead of operas?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 01:56:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2022, 01:44:19 AM
Okay, thanks --- but why calling them melodramas instead of operas?

I apologize, I recognize it wasn't correct.
But apart from Mascagni and Leoncavallo, those composers are included in the Melodrama.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2022, 02:06:36 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 01:56:46 AM
I apologize, I recognize it wasn't correct.

No, it's actually my bad, I had in mind only a particular meaning of melodrama. You were correct.

QuoteBut apart from Mascagni and Leoncavallo, those composers are included in the Melodrama.

Well, Pagliacci and Cavalleria rusticana are typical melodramas when it comes to the operatic sense of the word.  :D

Once again, it's my bad. Never mind any more.



Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on May 10, 2022, 02:19:36 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 01:42:07 AM
Well, about Italian Opera, despite many attempts, I have never been particularly interested in Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Leoncavallo, Mascagni and Verdi. Their music is not appealing to me, I'm sorry.

Same here, but I certainly enjoy Puccini!  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: 71 dB on May 10, 2022, 02:23:57 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on May 09, 2022, 07:30:37 AM
Great C minor Mass > Requiem in D minor

Yes, totally agreed! As great as Requiem is, Mass in C minor is even greater.  0:)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on May 11, 2022, 10:21:45 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 01:42:07 AM
Well, about Italian Opera, despite many attempts, I have never been particularly interested in Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Leoncavallo, Mascagni and Verdi. Their music is not appealing to me, I'm sorry.

I get your point, but have revised my opinion (= the same) somewhat nowadays.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2022, 12:31:01 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2022, 01:42:07 AM
Well, about Italian Opera, despite many attempts, I have never been particularly interested in Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Leoncavallo, Mascagni and Verdi. Their music is not appealing to me, I'm sorry.

No love for Mascagni's Cavalleria rusticana? :-\ Wow...wait until Cesar (SymphonicAddict) reads this! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 11, 2022, 01:01:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2022, 12:31:01 PM
No love for Mascagni's Cavalleria rusticana? :-\ Wow...wait until Cesar (SymphonicAddict) reads this! ;) ;D

Why, does he love it? :D Anyway, yes, I'm sorry......if I may borrow, and modify, a Nietzsche quotation, for me all the Italian Opera dissolves in front of the first chord of Tristan. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2022, 01:09:07 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 11, 2022, 01:01:30 PM
Why, does he love it? :D Anyway, yes, I'm sorry......if I may borrow, and modify, a Nietzsche quotation, for me all the Italian Opera dissolves in front of the first chord of Tristan. ;)

Yes, Cesar loves it and there's no reason to be sorry. I disagree with that Nietzsche quote, though, not because I dislike Wagner, but because comparing German and Italian opera is like comparing apples with oranges. Anyway, to each their own.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 11, 2022, 01:16:04 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2022, 01:09:07 PM
Yes, Cesar loves it and there's no reason to be sorry. I disagree with that Nietzsche quote, though, not because I dislike Wagner, but because comparing German and Italian opera is like comparing apples with oranges. Anyway, to each their own.

No, that was how I modified it; Nietzsche said: "All the wonders of the world loose charm in front of the first chord of Tristan".

I have great respect for all those composers anyway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2022, 01:22:11 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 11, 2022, 01:16:04 PM
No, that was how I modified it; Nietzsche said: "All the wonders of the world loose charm in front of the first chord of Tristan".

I have great respect for all those composers anyway.

Well, I still disagree with Nietzsche. ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on May 11, 2022, 10:38:34 PM
Nietzsche eventually came to disagree with himself, maybe nor re Tristan but re Wagner because he hated Parsifal and decided that "Carmen" was now his ideal opera.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 12, 2022, 12:44:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 11, 2022, 10:38:34 PM
Nietzsche eventually came to disagree with himself, maybe nor re Tristan but re Wagner because he hated Parsifal and decided that "Carmen" was now his ideal opera.

Indeed, but although he disagreed with Wagner's philosophical conception, he never denied the beauty of his music (I mean, of course, the musical writing).
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 14, 2022, 07:45:02 PM
Dvorak's Wind Serenade is not that great.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 14, 2022, 10:07:54 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 14, 2022, 07:45:02 PM
Dvorak's Wind Serenade is not that great.  ;)

The public stoning will begin at 11am Saturday. Bring the family.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 14, 2022, 11:07:52 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 14, 2022, 07:45:02 PM
Dvorak's Wind Serenade is not that great.  ;)

compared to what? competition is not exactly fierce for woodwind music...

Maybe also UO: That wind serenade is greater than his piano concerto, his first 4 symphonies and his first 8 string quartets... now you can out-unpopular me for complaining about the low bar I set... ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 15, 2022, 08:39:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 14, 2022, 11:07:52 PM
compared to what? competition is not exactly fierce for woodwind music...

The golden age of woodwind music was the Classical Era. Tons of serenades, partitas and wind quintets or octets.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 15, 2022, 08:40:23 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 14, 2022, 07:45:02 PM
Dvorak's Wind Serenade is not that great.  ;)

I agree that the Serenade for Strings is better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: DavidW on July 15, 2022, 08:51:14 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 15, 2022, 08:39:14 AM
The golden age of woodwind music was the Classical Era. Tons of serenades, partitas and wind quintets or octets.

Yeah someone could be happy with just Mozart's divertimenti and Schubert's octet.  For the life of me I can't even remember Dvorak's wind serenade!  I'll have to give it a fresh listen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 15, 2022, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 15, 2022, 08:39:14 AM
The golden age of woodwind music was the Classical Era. Tons of serenades, partitas and wind quintets or octets.
More the late classical and early romantic era with Reicha and Danzi. I have at least a dozen CDs of such stuff  because I have a general liking for woodwinds although I rarely listen to them. But nothing except Mozart is as good as the Dvorak wind serenade.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 15, 2022, 10:44:42 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 14, 2022, 10:07:54 PM
The public stoning will begin at 11am Saturday. Bring the family.

And yet, I cannot help feeling that the thread draws out opinions as advertised. Not sure I'd go so far as to advocate for a "Safe Space," but here, especially, a little "live and let live" is called for, I think.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 15, 2022, 10:47:30 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 15, 2022, 08:51:31 AM
More the late classical and early romantic era with Reicha and Danzi. I have at least a dozen CDs of such stuff  because I have a general liking for woodwinds although I rarely listen to them. But nothing except Mozart is as good as the Dvorak wind serenade.


I was going to say, if someone really wishes to hear Reicha rather than the Dvořák Opus 44, they can have him! 8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 15, 2022, 11:16:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 15, 2022, 10:47:30 AM
I was going to say, if someone really wishes to hear Reicha rather than the Dvořák Opus 44, they can have him! 8)
Reicha ist IMO the best of Krommer, Myslivecek, Danzi, Reicha and whatever else there might be.

There is also a sinfonietta by Raff which is one of his better pieces and in effect more like a wind serenade.
I am a bit annoyed with Brahms that he didn't make one of his serenades winds mainly only, like Mozart or Dvorak (a little bass support is granted ;))
Smaller scale very nice pieces a bit later are Janacek's Mladi and the Dixtuor by Enescu.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: MusicTurner on July 15, 2022, 11:20:36 AM
Janacek does indeed come about as a master.
(Mladi, Capriccio, Concertino, Sinfonietta,  etc.)

Carl Nielsen is also a great writer for the wind instruments; the Flute and Clarinet Concertos are a part of a projected series of 5 wind concertos, btw.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 15, 2022, 11:36:53 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 15, 2022, 11:20:36 AM
Janacek does indeed come about as a master.
(Mladi, Capriccio, Concertino, Sinfonietta,  etc.)

Carl Nielsen is also a great writer for the wind instruments; the Flute and Clarinet Concertos are a part of a projected series of 5 wind concertos, btw.

Yes!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 15, 2022, 02:02:27 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 15, 2022, 10:44:42 AM
And yet, I cannot help feeling that the thread draws out opinions as advertised. Not sure I'd go so far as to advocate for a "Safe Space," but here, especially, a little "live and let live" is called for, I think.

I thought you of all people would understand the humorously excessive outrage, Karl.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on July 15, 2022, 03:50:38 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 15, 2022, 02:02:27 PM
I thought you of all people would understand the humorously excessive outrage, Karl.

Oh, I did enjoy the post, rest easy!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
This opinion of Beethoven:

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy."

besides being highly spurious is absolutely bullshit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 22, 2022, 12:12:42 PM
It's an odd comparison. If Beethoven said it, it was not an entirely original idea at the time.
But I think that the idea behind it was shared both by some religious traditions and romantic philosophers.
In any case one can find similarly pointed statements, e.g. Martin Luther was clearly more fond of music than of philosophy, or take Dryden's poem (From harmony, from heavenly harmony) set by Handel as Ode for St. Cecilia's: The heavenly music was before and will be after this material world ("As from the power of sacred lays the spheres began to move... when the last and dreadful hour this crumbling pagean shall devour, the dead shall live, the living die and music shall uptune the sky"). And earthly music is a shadow of the heavenly harmony etc.
Or Schopenhauer's claim that music was a more direct expression of the "Will" than anything else.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2022, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 22, 2022, 12:12:42 PM
It's an odd comparison.

What comparison? I did not compare anything to anything.  ;D

QuoteIf Beethoven said it, it was not an entirely original idea at the time.

There is no evidence that Beethoven ever said it other than the rhapsodic, ex post facto prose of Bettina von Arnim, a notoriously untrustworthy source for anything --- and even she qualifies it with quoting Beethoven's afterthough that "Did I really say that? I must have had a rapture".  ;D

In all probabilty Beethoven never uttered those words.


Quotethe idea behind it was shared both by some religious traditions and romantic philosophers.
In any case one can find similarly pointed statements, e.g. Martin Luther was clearly more fond of music than of philosophy, or take Dryden's poem (From harmony, from heavenly harmony) set by Handel as Ode for St. Cecilia's: The heavenly music was before and will be after this material world ("As from the power of sacred lays the spheres began to move... when the last and dreadful hour this crumbling pagean shall devour, the dead shall live, the living die and music shall uptune the sky"). And earthly music is a shadow of the heavenly harmony etc.
Or Schopenhauer's claim that music was a more direct expression of the "Will" than anything else.

Whoever said it first, in whatever form, it is still bullshit.  ;)

Schopenhauer first and foremost, who offered as the greatest example of music which was a more direct expression of the "Will" than anything else the music of, well, Rossini...  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on July 22, 2022, 01:40:19 PM
Beethoven's comparison. Not yours.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2022, 11:11:02 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 22, 2022, 01:40:19 PM
Beethoven's comparison. Not yours.

Yes, I got it now. My bad.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on July 23, 2022, 02:20:35 AM
Yes, but I found the comparison odd probably because of a too narrow understanding of "revelation". Because in the usual Western theological/philosophical tradition (divine) revelation is different from philosophy anyway. Probably the romantics put the opposition more between any scholarly/scientific knowledge including sacred books and intuitive insight/"revelation".

In any case, I think it fits rather well with romanticism and as I said there could be a christian tradition construed for a similar idea. Although the medievals and early moderns would have totally rejected Schopenhauer's idea that music was an expression of the (non-rational) will, to the contrary the harmony of the spheres is supremely rational (as the harmonies are literally based on ratios of sounding strings.

I cannot help but like the general idea; it was probably popular also because while sound waves are material and need a material medium, music seems closer than the other arts, in fact closer than anything but abstract maths, logics etc. to the immaterial, therefore "heavenly".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 29, 2022, 11:21:31 AM
Quote from: Neal Zaslaw

Certainly the idea that exceptionally creative persons should be freed of
ordinary responsibilities to pursue their work unimpeded by worldly concerns
is of long standing. It was behind the more enlightened aspects of the
patronage given by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, by Renaissance
princes, by Orthodox Jewish communities to Talmudic scholars, and by the
Princeton Institute for Advanced Study and other modern think tanks and
artist colonies. To Romantic minds, a gifted composer was not a highly skilled
craftsman but an inspired genius to whom society owed something – and
who would, in return, elevate culture by creating "masterpieces" for
posterity. Mozart probably would have laughed at this. He was certainly well
aware of his worth and had some sense that his music might have
importance beyond the immediate occasions for which it was created. But the
Romantic attitude would have astonished him, as he bent his every effort to
craft pieces for the here and now, carefully calculated to fit the performers,
suit the occasion, have an effect upon the listeners, and earn himself further
commissions.

Mozart did write more than once that a reason for desiring financial
security was that he found it hard to compose when he was upset and could
therefore be more productive if he did not have to worry about money. This
perfectly sensible and understandable sentiment was, however, expressed in
the context of his being unable to imagine a time when he would not have to
compose to support himself, and so wishing to make that process as painless
and as successful as possible.

Under ideal circumstances – with a commission that appealed to him, with
prospects for an excellent and prestigious performance, with the promise of
adequate compensation – Mozart doubtless got intense pleasure from
composing. It was probably not merely to fend off his father's criticisms of
laziness in one of their interminable tiffs during his adolescence that Mozart
called composing his "sole delight and passion." Nonetheless, we do not
know, nor will we ever know, whether Mozart would have gone on composing
at his usual rate or even at all – had he become wealthy and no longer
needed to sell his music to put bread on the table.



(RTWTH: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274195289_Mozart_as_a_Working_Stiff (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274195289_Mozart_as_a_Working_Stiff))

The last sentence of the last paragraph fits Rossini to a tee.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on August 29, 2022, 11:36:29 AM
Music doesn't put bread on our table, yet I composed a good deal. I know: more fool me. Probably a large part of why I presently feel so very little motivation to do any more creative work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 29, 2022, 11:44:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2022, 11:36:29 AM
Music doesn't put bread on our table, yet I composed a good deal. I know: more fool me. Probably a large part of why I presently feel so very little motivation to do any more creative work.

Well, in Mozart's time it put bread on the table of all composers. It's Romanticism that took it off their table all the while pretending they were liberated from servitude. Something akin to Frantz Fanon bon mot about the independence of the former African colonies: You want independence? Take it --- and die!  ;D

Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on August 29, 2022, 12:54:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2022, 11:36:29 AM
Music doesn't put bread on our table, yet I composed a good deal. I know: more fool me. Probably a large part of why I presently feel so very little motivation to do any more creative work.

There's a whole exploration to be had here of the notion of a hobby...
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: SimonNZ on August 29, 2022, 06:30:34 PM
Quote from: Florestan on August 29, 2022, 11:44:13 AM
Well, in Mozart's time it put bread on the table of all composers. It's Romanticism that took it off their table all the while pretending they were liberated from servitude. Something akin to Frantz Fanon bon mot about the independence of the former African colonies: You want independence? Take it --- and die!  ;D

Where does Fanon say that?
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on August 29, 2022, 11:16:04 PM
While I have myself in discussions when they were extrapolated as uber-composers if living longer  entertained the idea that Mozart (or Schubert) might have "pulled a Rossini" had they lived 20 or 30 years longer, I don't think Zaslaw has a good argument here. As he rightly says, we don't know and the immense dedication and creativity Mozart showed when he was on fire for a project seems to strongly indicate that it's rather unlikely he would have gone down the Rossini road.

As his examples at the beginning show, to "liberate" someone from the trouble for the daily bread for special creative tasks is by no means a purely romantic notion but actually present in many cultures.

More importantly, Rossini (or Sibelius) are noteworthy because they are exceptions. Rossini suffered from depression and Sibelius also had health and probably drinking problems and neither completely stopped composing; Rossini wrote sacred works and piano pieces, just no more operas.

We have many examples for composers who kept writing music when they didn't have to or music they didn't have to compose. Bach or Haydn had many more years of drudgery behind them than Mozart but continued to write music they were not obliged to write (Nobody told Bach in the 1740s to write WTC II or AoF, similarly with Haydn's "Seasons" or the last bunch of string quartets).
Handel, Brahms, Verdi, R. Strauss and others were comfortably well off in their (late) middle age and could easily have taken an earlyish retirement and some did "slow down" quite a bit but all kept writing music, sometimes for several decades.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on August 29, 2022, 11:56:30 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 29, 2022, 06:30:34 PM
Where does Fanon say that?

IIRC, it is quoted as such in Jean-Jacques Servan-Schreiber's Le défi mondial. I might be wrong, though, it's been decades since I've encountered the quote.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 14, 2022, 11:00:36 AM
The first movement of Mahler 3 should be playable and programmed as an independent work, without the other five movements. It could fit into the normal "symphony" slot of a concert program after overture, concerto, and intermission, and its epic span as a single movement forms a satisfying whole. Though of course I love the whole piece, it is sprawling and difficult for many smaller orchestras to put on more than once a decade or so. And it does have some central bits that aren't as inspired as the beginning and finale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2022, 11:02:17 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2022, 11:00:36 AM
The first movement of Mahler 3 should be playable and programmed as an independent work, without the other five movements. It could fit into the normal "symphony" slot of a concert program after overture, concerto, and intermission, and its epic span as a single movement forms a satisfying whole.

OT Tangent: I guess I need to revisit the Mahler Third  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 14, 2022, 11:06:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 14, 2022, 11:02:17 AM
OT Tangent: I guess I need to revisit the Mahler Third  8)
No matter how many angry replies there are later, I'll feel good for inspiring you!  8)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on September 14, 2022, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2022, 11:00:36 AMThe first movement of Mahler 3 should be playable and programmed as an independent work, without the other five movements.

I'd nominate the final movement for such treatment.

Also, more pianists could start performing transcriptions of Mahler symphony movements.  Kazakevich, Berrut, and now Levit (among others) have recorded such pieces.  They could make for a meaty half-program.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 14, 2022, 02:08:18 PM
Well Mahler DID designate it as "Part One". He must have meant something by that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 14, 2022, 03:29:56 PM
Quote from: Madiel on September 14, 2022, 02:08:18 PM
Well Mahler DID designate it as "Part One". He must have meant something by that.

Maybe it was because of the original programme, then dropped, Mahler had created for the symphony; the first movement, Part One, was originally divided in two sections "Pan awakes" and "Summer marches in".
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 14, 2022, 04:45:08 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2022, 11:00:36 AM
The first movement of Mahler 3 should be playable and programmed as an independent work, without the other five movements. It could fit into the normal "symphony" slot of a concert program after overture, concerto, and intermission, and its epic span as a single movement forms a satisfying whole. Though of course I love the whole piece, it is sprawling and difficult for many smaller orchestras to put on more than once a decade or so. And it does have some central bits that aren't as inspired as the beginning and finale.

I routinely skip all movements of Mahler 3 that have caterwauling of any kind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 05:13:28 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 14, 2022, 04:45:08 PM
I routinely skip all movements of Mahler 3 that have caterwauling of any kind.

Which is what ones?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2022, 05:31:11 PM
"caterwauling" ... I do love that word. It does have kind of a Mahler vibe .... j/k
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Brian on September 14, 2022, 07:05:51 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 14, 2022, 04:45:08 PM
I routinely skip all movements of Mahler 3 that have caterwauling of any kind.
I spend an excessive amount of time contemplating how all the endings of the first five movements could possibly segue into the finale, and what the proper order would be if you cut the two singing movements. Maybe I, III, II, VI would be satisfying, although then the symphony would get progressively slower with each passing section.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 14, 2022, 08:21:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2022, 07:05:51 PM
I spend an excessive amount of time contemplating how all the endings of the first five movements could possibly segue into the finale, and what the proper order would be if you cut the two singing movements. Maybe I, III, II, VI would be satisfying, although then the symphony would get progressively slower with each passing section.

I more or less listen to each of the individual movements as a separate piece. I can't find time for more than that. At least it ends with an instrumental movement. I also listen to the second symphony as a suite of individual movements, from which I generally omit any with singing. But that is unsatisfactory since the finale has singing. Maybe once a decade I commit to listening to the second symphony finale. I think most recently I listened to Boulez.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 14, 2022, 10:46:50 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2022, 11:00:36 AM
The first movement of Mahler 3 should be playable and programmed as an independent work, without the other five movements. It could fit into the normal "symphony" slot of a concert program after overture, concerto, and intermission, and its epic span as a single movement forms a satisfying whole. Though of course I love the whole piece, it is sprawling and difficult for many smaller orchestras to put on more than once a decade or so. And it does have some central bits that aren't as inspired as the beginning and finale.
I would not pay a penny for such a separate movement in concert. A main point of Mahler's 3rd seems to be the overall extension and that it "contains the world", including cuckoos and boy's choirs. The first movement alone would be largely pointless and in every way less satisfying than a 40 min complete symphony or tone poem that would usually require roughly the same effort in preparation (although often not such a large orchestra).

There are such races and nothing against them but it would be a bit like a 30-35 km race instead of a full marathon. It would require close to the same effort in preparation both for the athletes and the race organizers but it would have nothing like the nimbus and reputation of a marathon race.

The idea with piano versions of Mahler symphonic movements is even worse (I'd probably pay not to have to listen to that...). As if there wasn't enough good and demanding piano literature!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Wanderer on September 14, 2022, 11:21:41 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 14, 2022, 10:46:50 PM
I would not pay a penny for such a separate movement in concert. A main point of Mahler's 3rd seems to be the overall extension and that it "contains the world", including cuckoos and boy's choirs. The first movement alone would be largely pointless and in every way less satisfying than a 40 min complete symphony or tone poem that would usually require roughly the same effort in preparation (although often not such a large orchestra).

There are such races and nothing against them but it would be a bit like a 30-35 km race instead of a full marathon. It would require close to the same effort in preparation both for the athletes and the race organizers but it would have nothing like the nimbus and reputation of a marathon race.

The idea with piano versions of Mahler symphonic movements is even worse (I'd probably pay not to have to listen to that...). As if there wasn't enough good and demanding piano literature!

Agreed on both counts.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 14, 2022, 11:44:14 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on September 14, 2022, 11:21:41 PM
Agreed on both counts.

+ 1.

Quote from: Jo498 on September 14, 2022, 10:46:50 PM
As if there wasn't enough good and demanding piano literature!

Hear, hear!
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 15, 2022, 12:55:04 AM
I could imagine having the "Totenfeier" (original version of the Mahler 2nd 1st movement) in a concert but I think that this would also feel strange and incomplete because everyone encountered this first as part of the 2nd symphony.

FWIW I think the orchestral versions of Mahler Lieder are also far superior, so much that I welcome the orchestrations of some of his early lieder made by Berio and some others.

I used to have more interest in arrangements vs. originals but I almost always prefer original versions and I suspect that many of the arrangements are recorded because of  oversaturation with standard versions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on September 15, 2022, 04:26:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 14, 2022, 10:46:50 PMThe idea with piano versions of Mahler symphonic movements is even worse (I'd probably pay not to have to listen to that...). As if there wasn't enough good and demanding piano literature!

I thought the same until I heard Mikhail Kazakevich play his own arrangement of the Scherzo from the Mahler First or Zlata Chochieva's take on Ignaz Friedman's transcription of the Tempo di Menuetto from Mahler's Third.  I doubt Mahler symphony transcriptions become as popular as Liszt's transcriptions of Beethoven - though I find the few transcriptions of Mahler I've heard to be better than the Beethoven ones - but they can be exceptionally well done. 
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: LKB on September 15, 2022, 06:35:01 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 14, 2022, 11:00:36 AM
The first movement of Mahler 3 should be playable and programmed as an independent work, without the other five movements. It could fit into the normal "symphony" slot of a concert program after overture, concerto, and intermission, and its epic span as a single movement forms a satisfying whole. Though of course I love the whole piece, it is sprawling and difficult for many smaller orchestras to put on more than once a decade or so. And it does have some central bits that aren't as inspired as the beginning and finale.

Certainly an unpopular opinion with me, and generates the following, possibly equally unpopular response:

VETO VETO VETO VETO VETO...  >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: JBS on September 15, 2022, 01:41:13 PM
There are at least a couple of two piano (or four handed) transcritpions that derived, if not from Mahler, then at least from his publishers. And there are a couple of piano roll recordings of Mahler himself playing transcriptions of movements from the symphonies.
But those reflect the days when there were no audio recordings and such transcriptions were the best way to access the music for most people.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 16, 2022, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2022, 04:26:25 AM
I thought the same until I heard Mikhail Kazakevich play his own arrangement of the Scherzo from the Mahler First or Zlata Chochieva's take on Ignaz Friedman's transcription of the Tempo di Menuetto from Mahler's Third.  I doubt Mahler symphony transcriptions become as popular as Liszt's transcriptions of Beethoven - though I find the few transcriptions of Mahler I've heard to be better than the Beethoven ones - but they can be exceptionally well done.
I don't care about the Liszt/Beethoven either. I have one disc with Scherbakov, one with Katsaris and the 5th with Gould and for me they are mere oddities, for some reason, I'd rather listen to Gould playing Wagner than Beethoven. (And I don't care for the two Mahler movements mentioned in their original form, despite not wanting Mahler 3,i on its own, I do think the following movements should have been condensed a bit).

The main composers I sometimes enjoy transcriptions are Bach, Schubert songs by Liszt and some Brahms and I agree that they can sometimes offer interesting alternative views. I have a bunch of the Matthies/Köhn Brahms series on Naxos (this is partly because I have met Christian Köhn several times socially a few years ago and also heard the duo perform live) but I strongly disagree with the sometimes heard opinion that Brahms' orchestral and chamber sounds better on piano (duo).
(The exception for me are only the hungarian dances but this was their original form and most of the orchestrations are not by Brahms anyway.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 16, 2022, 01:18:13 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 16, 2022, 12:05:04 AM
the sometimes heard opinion that Brahms' orchestral and chamber sounds better on piano (duo).

Utter nonsense, of course.

Piano (solo or duet) transcriptions were useful back then when there were no recordings and the only way to hear (especially new) operatic, symphonic or chamber compositions was either live or by way of transcriptions. Today they are relics of the past and should be treated as such.

In general, I'm not keen on transcriptions that were not made by the composers themselves, save for song transcriptions or operatic fantasies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Jo498 on September 16, 2022, 01:24:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 16, 2022, 01:18:13 AM
Utter nonsense.
I have heard/read the preference for Brahms orchestral music on piano as a serious opinion, and I am pretty sure it wasn't a provocation and not always or entirely meant mainly as criticism of Brahms' instrumentation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 16, 2022, 01:26:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 16, 2022, 01:24:06 AM
I have heard/read the preference for Brahms orchestral music on piano as a serious opinion

Well, a madman claiming he is Napoleon is dead serious but shouldn't be taken seriously.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Madiel on September 16, 2022, 02:31:30 PM
My views on transcriptions are well known. I need not repeat them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2022, 02:47:17 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 16, 2022, 12:05:04 AMI strongly disagree with the sometimes heard opinion that Brahms' orchestral and chamber sounds better on piano (duo).

I've never heard or read that, and it strikes me as impossible.  That written, Max Reger's solo piano transcriptions of the Poco Allegretto from the Third and the Andante sostenuto of the First sound sumptuous, languid, and occasionally elegiac as played by Evgeni Bozhanov.  A good portion comes from Reger, and a good part comes from the pianist, whose style and delivery work wonderfully.  They are not standard bravura virtuoso fare one often encounters with transcriptions.  They do not and cannot match the original scores, but they aim for something different and succeed.

I'm game for listening to transcriptions, especially with certain pianists.  I could listen to Volodos or Schuch or Fray or YES performing all types of transcriptions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 23, 2022, 09:56:09 AM
What is interesting about Messiaen is the titles of his works or movements, not the music in itself.

Just found out he wrote an opera, almost 4 hours long. Holy sh...  >:D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 23, 2022, 10:31:49 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 23, 2022, 09:56:09 AM
What is interesting about Messiaen is the titles of his works or movements, not the music in itself.

Just found out he wrote an opera, almost 4 hours long. Holy sh... >:D

An amateur., honestly There is this guy who wrote several operas which, though not exactly four-hour long, sound as they are six-hour long and some of which must be performed on four consecutive nights.  ;D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 23, 2022, 10:52:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2022, 10:31:49 AM
An amateur., honestly There is this guy who wrote several operas which, though not exactly four-hour long, sound as they are six-hour long and some of which must be performed on four consecutive nights.  ;D

My ears must be burning.  ::) :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 23, 2022, 11:43:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2022, 10:31:49 AM
An amateur., honestly There is this guy who wrote several operas which, though not exactly four-hour long, sound as they are six-hour long and some of which must be performed on four consecutive nights.  ;D

Even if the operas by the guy you're invoking lasted more than 4 hours each, I'd be very happy listening to them instead of the Messiaen.  ;)
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on September 24, 2022, 05:07:18 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 23, 2022, 11:43:27 AM
Even if the operas by the guy you're invoking lasted more than 4 hours each, I'd be very happy listening to them instead of the Messiaen.  ;)

I'll have belcanto over both, thank you.  :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: pjme on September 26, 2022, 12:54:59 AM
The scenes with The angel are magical though...and I look forward to any new production of Saint François over any Traviata or Butterfly or Rheingold.

https://www.youtube.com/v/FJyTAnRg-NQ




Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Roy Bland on January 16, 2024, 06:36:57 PM
Eugenio Montale was prominent italian poet

http://www.fedoa.unina.it/10861/1/Definitivo%20tesi%20dottorato%20MS%20Assante.pdf
Title: Re: Unpopular Opinions
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2024, 12:11:32 AM
Quote from: Roy Bland on January 16, 2024, 06:36:57 PMEugenio Montale was prominent italian poet

http://www.fedoa.unina.it/10861/1/Definitivo%20tesi%20dottorato%20MS%20Assante.pdf

This is not unpopular, this is a truism.