If I was to buy a complete cycle of these works (all played by the same performers) which set would you recommend? And what about if I were to collect the works one by one - who would you tip for each?
Thanks in advance. :)
Serkin
Quote from: Mark on September 08, 2007, 03:01:39 PM
If I was to buy a complete cycle of these works (all played by the same performers) which set would you recommend? And what about if I were to collect the works one by one - who would you tip for each?
Thanks in advance. :)
One by one: Serkin, Haskil or Casadesus.
Complete cycle: Perahia or Anda. (I will look for a good contrasting movement to post so you can see the difference between the two.
:)
Quote from: George on September 08, 2007, 03:24:55 PM
(I will look for a good contrasting movement to post so you can see the difference between the two.
:)
Thanks, man. :)
Quote from: Mark on September 08, 2007, 03:35:18 PM
Thanks, man. :)
It'll be ready in about 10 minutes. $:)
Mark - for 'complete sets', I've tried to refine my collection over the last year or so, based on recommendations here (and elsewhere) - I now have 3 sets (old, new, & HIP) - I'm sure that you'll get plenty of suggestions, but these are the ones that I currently own & enjoy:
Schiff-Vegh on Decca (1985-94)
Anda on DG (1962-71) - one of my favs (PC #21 from the movie Elvira Madigan)
Bilson-Gardiner on Archiv Prod (1983-88)
Dave - :D
Quote from: Mark on September 08, 2007, 03:35:18 PM
Thanks, man. :)
OK Mark, here it is:Link to finale from D minor by Serkin, Anda, Perahia (repectively) (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=45732805cf458166b4e0c5efb3960d79df00dbfb52680a19)
I am very curious to hear what you think. Please let me know.
Dave, thanks.
And George, thank you, too. I'll give 'em a listen later and report back. ;)
For non-HIP Anda is very good (complete set), Casadesus and Moravec are even better.
None of them is in state-of-the-art recordings BTW.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/49/452149.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RQ6BQWV2L._AA240_.jpg)
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AWCMT4GDL._AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C1W1JMYEL._SS500_.jpg)
For HIP my favourite is Jos van Immerseel on Channel Classics (complete, but excludes concertos 1-4 that were written for harpsichord) These actually are in state-of-the-art-recordings....
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/12/36312.jpg)
But Mark, but......! ::)
If I'm not mistaken in your general musical preferences - and they happen to not align with mine - you might be better served with either Murray Perahia's or Daniel Barenboim's Mozart cycles.....
Good hunting! :)
Q
Perahia
Mark, what type of piano playing do you like in Mozart? For instance who do you like in the piano sonatas? Knowing that we can all quickly narrow down the list of recs to something that you would enjoy. :)
Quote from: Que on September 08, 2007, 11:25:30 PM
For HIP my favourite is Jos van Immerseel on Channel Classics (complete, but excludes concertos 1-4 that were written for harpsichord) These actually are in state-of-the-art-recordings....
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/12/36312.jpg)
Q
My wife and I adore this above set Mark. It is HIP, but
unbelievably beautiful. Thanks to Que and others advice and sits on our shelf.
I believe my next set, should I go for another one would be:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/517S0ZWPN3L._AA240_.jpg)
Though Tate may not be top of the line here, Uchida more than makes up for any of my perceived short comings.
Quote from: Bogey on September 09, 2007, 05:52:53 AM
My wife and I adore this above set Mark. It is HIP, but unbelievably beautiful. Thanks to Que and others advice and sits on our shelf.
Drat...now I'm virtually condemned to buy another set. ;)
I like Uchida, love Schiff/Vegh (thanks again, Donwyn!).
Quote from: longears on September 09, 2007, 05:59:29 AM
Drat...now I'm virtually condemned to buy another set. ;)
I like Uchida, love Schiff/Vegh (thanks again, Donwyn!).
Longears got a new face! :D
Of the sets I know, Bilson-Gardiner.
Barenboim/English Chamber Orchestra. But he plays some of the concertos, like the 23rd KV 488 A major concerto (which is my favourite), in a somewhat boring and uninspired manner. And it is not HIP at all. Otherwise I think it is one of the best of complete sets and includes the concertos no 1-4 which are only arrangements of other composer's works.
Wow! So many great replies. I've not had chance yet to hear George's three samples, so once I have, I'll report back in this thread.
Thanks to all so far. :)
As a set, I suggest the Barenboim with ECO on EMI. It is even in quality of playing and recording. No doubt there will be some phrasing or styling that one finds different, but I think that is beneficial, both in keeping interest for the long haul of a set, and in supplying new insights.
The ECO and its featured players are always in sync with the soloist. The soundstage provides excellent orchestra and soloist positioning, with intelligent spot-micing.
I have listened to most of the sets, and I am sad to say each has a lot of sameness about them, including Barenboim's other set on Warner. I do not want to call them cookie-cutting, boring or sleep inducers, but at times I am tempted.
What I couldn't be without:
Pollini/Böhm in nos. 19 & 23
Gulda/Böhm in no. 20
Bilson/Gardiner in no. 21
Perahia in no. 9, 22 & 24
Andsnes in nos. 9 & 18
Michelangeli in nos 20 & 25 (DG recordings)
Gilels/Böhm in no. 27
No Uchida. Blame Tate. Anda in no. 21 is too many spoons of sugar I'm afraid.
I should get that Moravec disc mentioned, and that van Immersel-cycle.
Quote from: Mark on September 08, 2007, 03:01:39 PMIf I was to buy a complete cycle of these works (all played by the same performers)
Save your money. Buy only the concertos he wrote "late" in life, the ones that sound more like Beethoven than early Beethoven does.
Quote from: sound67 on September 09, 2007, 01:37:31 PM
Save your money. Buy only the concertos he wrote "late" in life, the ones that sound more like Beethoven than early Beethoven does.
Don't agree. The concertos from no. 5 up can safely be recommended.
Quote from: sound67 on September 09, 2007, 01:37:31 PM
Save your money. Buy only the concertos he wrote "late" in life, the ones that sound more like Beethoven than early Beethoven does.
I disagree, I find
all of Mozart's keyboard concertos worthwhile.
Even the harpsichord concertos (nos.1-4) that are adaptations of works of other composers are delightfull! :)
That being said, I also found that basically only the "later" concertos really work in non-HIP performances. It has to do with the balance in the score between the piano and the other instruments/orchestra.
So, there you go - I keep recommending HIP recordings.... ;D
Q
Quote from: Que on September 09, 2007, 06:18:56 PM
So, there you go - I keep recommending HIP recordings.... ;D
Q
I'm surprised. ::)
;D
Regarding a complete set by the same artist muy choice would be Perahia. Very poetic and touching. To me he gave the best ersion of the Concertos 5, 6, 11, 15, 16 , 18 and 23.
Regarding other interpretations, I suggest Ashkenazy with Kertesz in the 8th and 9th and with Isserstedt in the 20th, Geza Anda in the 13 and 21, Haskil in the 19 and 27 (with Fricsay) and the 24 with Markevitch, Casadesus with Szell in the 26, Fleischer with Szell in the 25, Annie Fischer with Sawallisch in the 21 and 22.
And, above all, Rudolf Serkin (with Schneider or Szell) in the 10, 12, 17, 19 and 20, and with Ormandy in the 27.
What about the Koopman-Haebler-Brendel set on Philips?
My top choice is still Barenboim/BPO. There is a meeting of minds between orchestra and soloist here that few others match. And Barenboim has an excellent feel for the essentially operatic style of Mozart's writing. It's very tastefully played, but Barenboim is not afraid to make the minor-key movements appropriately dark. It's not your cutesy Meissen-porcelain-Mozart. The cycle does not have Nos.1-4, but does include the concerti for 2 and 3 pianos (with Solti and Schiff and the ECO) on DVD (previously available on CD from Decca). My second choice would be Anda.
Quote from: O Mensch on September 10, 2007, 07:18:20 AM
My top choice is still Barenboim/BPO. There is a meeting of minds between orchestra and soloist here that few others match. And Barenboim has an excellent feel for the essentially operatic style of Mozart's writing. It's very tastefully played, but Barenboim is not afraid to make the minor-key movements appropriately dark. It's not your cutesy Meissen-porcelain-Mozart. The cycle does not have Nos.1-4, but does include the concerti for 2 and 3 pianos (with Solti and Schiff and the ECO) on DVD (previously available on CD from Decca). My second choice would be Anda.
The Warner Barenboim exhibits good playing, though in many concerti they lack the sprightness of the ECO, as in Barenboim's EMI set.
Also, I do not think Barenboim and the BPO's playing is exhibited to its fullest, because of indifferent engineering. In comparison to the EMI set, the sound is muddier, and featured players are poorly spot-miced (adding to that, the BPO is recessed). Thus, a lot of sameness can develop for the listener.
Quote from: BorisG on September 10, 2007, 09:59:27 AM
The Warner Barenboim exhibits good playing, though in many concerti they lack the sprightness of the ECO, as in Barenboim's EMI set.
Also, I do not think Barenboim and the BPO's playing is exhibited to its fullest, because of indifferent engineering. In comparison to the EMI set, the sound is muddier, and featured players are poorly spot-miced (adding to that, the BPO is recessed). Thus, a lot of sameness can develop for the listener.
I disagree on that. And the ECO on the EMI set just doesn't phrase as well as the BPO. The dialogue between soloist and orchestra on the BPO set is special, particularly in the late concertos.
Quote from: O Mensch on September 10, 2007, 11:09:58 AM
I disagree on that. And the ECO on the EMI set just doesn't phrase as well as the BPO. The dialogue between soloist and orchestra on the BPO set is special, particularly in the late concertos.
I think the phrasing, the dialogue, are better on the EMI, because the BPO is retaining a considerable amount of their big band poise. Also, the aforementioned orchestra positioning and sound differences do not help the BPO in this instance.
Quote from: George on September 08, 2007, 03:51:54 PM
OK Mark, here it is:
Link to finale from D minor by Serkin, Anda, Perahia (repectively) (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=45732805cf458166b4e0c5efb3960d79df00dbfb52680a19)
I am very curious to hear what you think. Please let me know.
George, thanks for these samples. Very helpful indeed. I'd subconciously thought I'd go with the Perahia set, then I heard the Anda and was converted. ;D Much better sonics, for one thing, and slightly more ... I want to say 'precise playing', but I'm sure that's not exactly what I mean.
Anyway, cheers!
(Anyone got a Barenboim sample from either set that they'd care to upload for further comparison?)
Quote from: Mark on September 10, 2007, 02:22:08 PM
George, thanks for these samples. Very helpful indeed. I'd subconciously thought I'd go with the Perahia set, then I heard the Anda and was converted. ;D Much better sonics, for one thing, and slightly more ... I want to say 'precise playing', but I'm sure that's not exactly what I mean.
Anyway, cheers!
(Anyone got a Barenboim sample from either set that they'd care to upload for further comparison?)
I think I like Anda more as well. You have superb taste. ;D
Quote from: George on September 10, 2007, 02:56:40 PM
I think I like Anda more as well. You have superb taste. ;D
I've been trained by the best, George. ;) ;D
Do you have a link to the set on sale anywhere? I looked but drew a blank. :(
Quote from: Mark on September 10, 2007, 02:59:38 PM
I've been trained by the best, George. ;) ;D
Do you have a link to the set on sale anywhere? I looked but drew a blank. :(
Mark, it's £18.97 at amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Complete-Solo-Piano-Concertos/dp/B00004YZ36/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-9792775-6644403?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1189465800&sr=8-1) - I got one a couple of weeks ago. That's a great price, imo.
Quote from: Novitiate on September 10, 2007, 03:12:34 PM
Mark, it's £18.97 at amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Complete-Solo-Piano-Concertos/dp/B00004YZ36/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-9792775-6644403?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1189465800&sr=8-1) - I got one a couple of weeks ago. That's a great price, imo.
Indeed. :)
George,
Wjat was your feelings about the Jos van Immerseel recordings that you have sampled?
Quote from: Bogey on September 10, 2007, 05:58:33 PM
George,
Wjat was your feelings about the Jos van Immerseel recordings that you have sampled?
It wasn't my cup of tea, but then I am rarely taken by HIP recordings. An exception to this might be some Baroque music.
Quote from: George on September 10, 2007, 06:00:48 PM
It wasn't my cup of tea, but then I am rarely taken by HIP recordings. An exception to this might be some Baroque music.
That's what I thought....fair enough. :)
Quote from: Novitiate on September 10, 2007, 03:12:34 PM
Mark, it's £18.97 at amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Complete-Solo-Piano-Concertos/dp/B00004YZ36/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-9792775-6644403?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1189465800&sr=8-1) - I got one a couple of weeks ago. That's a great price, imo.
Thanks for that. Must've misspelled something in my initial search. ;D
Quote from: Mark on September 10, 2007, 09:42:45 PM
Thanks for that. Must've misspelled something in my initial search. ;D
Hope it wasn't
Anda. ::) ;) ;D
I consider sampling some of the piano concertos with Serkin. Which ones should I start with? No. 19 and 20 with Szell?
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HVA5%2Bd8YL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: rubio on September 11, 2007, 11:33:33 AM
I consider sampling some of the piano concertos with Serkin. Which ones should I start with? No. 19 and 20 with Szell?
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HVA5%2Bd8YL._AA240_.jpg)
Great idea! :)
Quoterubio
I consider sampling some of the piano concertos with Serkin. Which ones should I start with? No. 19 and 20 with Szell?
YES. The 19 is my favorite piano concerto. And Serkin and Szell are extraordinary. Listen the dialogue between the piano and the winds of the orchestra in the 2nd movement of the 19. A moment of incredible beauty.
I will proceed :).
Quote from: longears on September 09, 2007, 05:59:29 AM
...love Schiff/Vegh (thanks again, Donwyn!).
Yes, this one gets my vote! Perfect 'classical' execution. From all involved.
No mention of Brendel? I think his glittering tone works with mozart much better than most other pianists mentioned here, all of whom seem to offer a softer grained sound (even Schiff).
Quote from: Tyson on September 12, 2007, 06:08:43 PM
No mention of Brendel? I think his glittering tone works with mozart much better than most other pianists mentioned here, all of whom seem to offer a softer grained sound (even Schiff).
'Soft grained' to some...subtle and finely etched to me...
Quote from: Tyson on September 12, 2007, 06:08:43 PM
No mention of Brendel? I think his glittering tone works with mozart much better than most other pianists mentioned here, all of whom seem to offer a softer grained sound (even Schiff).
I do like Brendel better in Mozart than in Beethoven, but prefer Schiff, Goode, and Uchida (despite the cumbersome Tate). Brendel usually seems a bit...well...
prissy to me--but I do enjoy his recent recording of sonatas including the B minor adagio K540.
Quote from: longears on September 13, 2007, 04:41:49 AM
I do like Brendel better in Mozart than in Beethoven, but prefer Schiff, Goode, and Uchida (despite the cumbersome Tate). Brendel usually seems a bit...well...prissy to me--but I do enjoy his recent recording of sonatas including the B minor adagio K540.
Interesting, as I would place Goode very close to Brendel in overall style in these works. Uchida and Schiff also naturally group together (at least in their playing, if not in the orchestral accompaniment). I prefer Goode and Brendel (speaking specifically of his partial set with Mackerras), as they play the music much more "straight", while Uchida and Schiff (and Perahia) consciously seek to "plumb the depths" with it, and I find that a bit off-putting.
Quote from: Tyson on September 14, 2007, 08:38:23 AM
.. I prefer Goode and Brendel (speaking specifically of his partial set with Mackerras), as they play the music much more "straight", while Uchida and Schiff (and Perahia) consciously seek to "plumb the depths" with it, and I find that a bit off-putting.
Very much agree. All those pianists exploring the "mysteries" in Mozart in brooding, Romanticised and overly "sculpted"/stylised (Uchida!) readings. Has not much to do with Mozart IMO.
(For other posters: if it rocks your boat - please don't mind this comment ;) ;D)
BTW if you like Goode you're just one step away from HIP: try Staier or Van Immerseel. 8)
Q
Quote from: Que on September 16, 2007, 03:28:14 AM
Very much agree. All those pianists exploring the "mysteries" in Mozart in brooding, Romanticised and overly "sculpted"/stylised (Uchida!) readings. Has not much to do with Mozary IMO.
BTW if you like Goode you're just one step away from HIP: try Staier or Van Immserseel. 8)
I even like Ashkenazy in the late ctos!
I'd say Goode pretty much is HIP, but not "original instrument." Your and Bill's recommendation were sufficient to cause me to order Immerseel's set. I particularly liked the clips you posted, Que. I generally prefer HIP with original instuments, but don't like Bilson/Gardiner, so I'm looking forward to this one.
Quote from: longears on September 16, 2007, 07:47:43 AM
Your and Bill's recommendation were sufficient to cause me to order Immerseel's set. I particularly liked the clips you posted, Que. I generally prefer HIP with original instuments, but don't like Bilson/Gardiner, so I'm looking forward to this one.
Bravo for that "leap of faith"! :)
Play at adequate volume - the fortepiano is not recorded up-front but as a "first amongst equals", the role that Mozart intended - and then I hope you'll have the time of your life. As I did.
Q
Quote from: Que on September 16, 2007, 08:20:07 AM
Play at adequate volume - the fortepiano is not recorded up-front but as a "first amongst equals", the role that Mozart intended - and then I hope you'll have the time of your life. As I did.
Q
The Bilson/Gardiner recordings use (at the suggestion of Neal Zaslow, the historical advisor for the project?) a "stepped" scheme for balancing dynamics in which many so-called "orchestral" passages are reduced to the front desks playing. These happen to be the parts where the fortepiano plays its solos and will sound exactly like
primus entre pares as suggested by Q. Most other memebers of the orchestra play only in the "tutti." I find the results to be entirely convincing and delight at their perfect mixture of "symphonic" and "chamber" sonorities. I think the same principle has been applied to many HIP concertante instrumental /operatic recordings, even if it is not always expressly pointed out as in the fine, fine Bilson/Gardiner Mozart series.
Interesting, masolino. I've noted a similar approach in Andsnes' recording of nos. 9 and 18.
Quote from: Valentino on September 17, 2007, 12:33:51 AM
Interesting, masolino. I've noted a similar approach in Andsnes' recording of nos. 9 and 18.
The Mozart performances by Andsnes and Anderszewski, to name another young pianist of
the "A" rank, are more prone to HIP-influences than those of the "B" rank or "G" rank I think ;)
I'm about to hit Buy Now on this set:
(http://shop.castleclassics.co.uk/acatalog/82876872302.jpg)
Anybody have a different opinion? ;D
No arguments about that one - he's top drawer. I have heard Uchida's and love her readings. My set is by Barrenboim - and that's fine - right down the middle, no idiosyncracies but hey, that's good in my book.
Not a Perhia fan here; to me he's bland. I would get whatever you can of Casadesus, filled in by the Bilson/Gardiner set on fortepiano.
For a complete set, either Perahia or Anda (Schiff and Barenboim are quite good too) would be just fine. Of course, you'd have to get Casadesus eventually.
Perahia's set is good, but too "glamorous" for my taste.
Best complete non-HIP cycle I know is Geza Anda's on DG - non ponderous, witty and small scale performances in central-European style.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/49/452149.jpg)
My favourite HIP-cycle (and overall favourite) is the one with Van Immerseel (Channel Classics).
(Not quite complete - depending how you look at it - because it excludes the "pastiche" harpsichord concertos Mozart wrote as a young child.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TWW1VFGEL._AA240_.jpg)
Apart from the complete cycles: I strongly second the recommendation of the recordings by Casadesus with Szell (Sony) and the single disc with Moravec (Supraphon).
Q
Bilson, the whole Bilson, and nothing but the Bilson!
However, I have to say that Casadesus is virtually untouchable in how he handles the (inappropriately modern! ;D) piano in the first movement of the #21. Only the Bilson complete set version comes close. I think Casadesus is the best for non-HIP in some of the later concerti.
Quote from: JoshLilly on December 12, 2007, 02:43:34 PM
Bilson, the whole Bilson, and nothing but the Bilson!
However, I have to say that Casadesus is virtually untouchable in how he handles the (inappropriately modern! ;D) piano in the first movement of the #21. Only the Bilson complete set version comes close. I think Casadesus is the best for non-HIP in some of the later concerti.
Yes yes and yes. You have very good taste, Josh (see my sidebar) :)
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Symphonies 88 - 90 Tafelmusik - Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 01 088 Symphony #88 in G 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro
SW - as you know, we've gone through this process before (deja vu!), so you'll get plenty of varied opinions, depending on HIP vs. non-HIP, 'new' vs. historic recordings, and whatever one feels is important in these works - I could not make up my mind (love Wolfie!), so I have 3 sets - like them all:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SY29VDD9L._AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J1AJR0DQL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/93/933400.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan on December 12, 2007, 02:59:04 PM
SW - as you know, we've gone through this process before (deja vu!), so you'll get plenty of varied opinions, depending on HIP vs. non-HIP, 'new' vs. historic recordings, and whatever one feels is important in these works - I could not make up my mind (love Wolfie!), so I have 3 sets - like them all:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SY29VDD9L._AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J1AJR0DQL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/93/933400.jpg)
I have the same three (had Perahia at one point too and sold it on). I find it interesting that my two favorite modern instrument sets (Anda & Schiff) are both done with the same orchestra, albeit 40 years apart. Not sure if that's coincidence, or if there's some institutional way they have with Mozart that appeals to me. If you want a 1st set and can tolerate a tiny bit of tape hiss, Anda is your man.
For individual recordings, I'll 2nd the votes for Cassadeus or Serkin with Szell. Also, the 2-fer of Rubinstein & Krips is really something special IMO, it's a shame he didn't record more of them.
Quote from: Que on December 12, 2007, 01:30:19 PM
Perahia's set is good, but too "glamorous" for my taste.
I also think is a weak recording for the ECO...which surprises me.
Quote from: Que on December 12, 2007, 01:30:19 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TWW1VFGEL._AA240_.jpg)
Nothin' but net!
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on December 12, 2007, 11:15:55 AM
I'm about to hit Buy Now on this set:
(http://shop.castleclassics.co.uk/acatalog/82876872302.jpg)
Anybody have a different opinion? ;D
I think the Perahia is a fine choice; as pointed out earlier, he can be rather bland but I don't find his Mozart bland at all. Other favored sets include Anda, Schiff, Barenboim and Bilson. I would include Uchida also except that her conductor is the ho-hum Tate.
For a super-budget set, I recommend the Arte Nova with Matthias Kirschnereit on piano.
The Perehia set is on my wish list also. I still have many of these on vinyl. Wonderful Mozart recordings!
The only competition for me, is the Goode/Orpheus recordings - but those aren't a complete set anyway.
Don, did Brendel do these? What's the verdict on those?
I have the Ashkenazy set. It's been good. :D
From what I've heard of the Anda set, it would be my choice. Heard a little Perehia but it just didn't float my boat. :-\
I think that, regarding the complete piano concertos, Perahia is the best choice. My second choice would be Geza Anda.
But Perahia has some sublime moments: the 18h Concerto is a miracle of poetry, in special the 2nd movement. To me, Perahia is also the best interpreter of the 5, 6, 15, 16 and 23. But in all the other he is remarkable, even if I prefer the young Ashkenazy in the 8, 9 and 20, Anda in the 14 and 21, Serkin in the 10 (with his son), 12, 17, 20 and 27. Not to mention Haskil, Curzon, Annie Fischer.
I wish that Leo McCawley, who recorded a sensational version of the complete Sonatas, will some day consider to record the Concertos.
Any further/detailed comments of the Andras Schiff set - 'cos the CAMS is a fantastic orch under Sandor Vegh?
Quote from: MN Dave on December 12, 2007, 04:10:34 PMDon, did Brendel do these? What's the verdict on those?
I'm not Don, but I can say that Brendel has recorded a number of the concertos, some of them multiple times. I prefer his newer recordings from the last few years to his 70s recordings. Indeed, all of his most recent Mozart recordings are among the best things he's done.
To the question of the thread: my first choice is Schiff / Vegh. I also have Perahia and Barenboim's first cycle (may have to try his second). I've not got around to Anda yet, though I think I'll rectify that next year. The best concertos come from incomplete though meaty sets, of course: Casadesus, Haskil, Moravec (both Supraphon and Hanssler), and Serkin (CBS/Sony) all pop into mind.
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2007, 05:15:14 AM
I'm not Don, but I can say that Brendel has recorded a number of the concertos, some of them multiple times. I prefer his newer recordings from the last few years to his 70s recordings. Indeed, all of his most recent Mozart recordings are among the best things he's done.
To the question of the thread: my first choice is Schiff / Vegh. I also have Perahia and Barenboim's first cycle (may have to try his second). I've not got around to Anda yet, though I think I'll rectify that next year. The best concertos come from incomplete though meaty sets, of course: Casadesus, Haskil, Moravec (both Supraphon and Hanssler), and Serkin (CBS/Sony) all pop into mind.
Thanks, Todd.
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2007, 05:15:14 AM
...Barenboim's first cycle (may have to try his second)....
I have 20-27 from Barenboim's BPO cycle, and I quite enjoy them. It's definitely big-boned, old-fashioned Mozart, but it's not as heavy or slow as that might sound -- it's surprisingly swift in places, actually. It works very well in something like PC20, where a bit of orchestral power is a good thing IMO.
Quote from: jwinter on December 13, 2007, 06:21:50 AM...something like PC20, where a bit of orchestral power is a good thing IMO.
Can't argue with that.
Quote from: jwinter on December 13, 2007, 06:21:50 AM
I have 20-27 from Barenboim's BPO cycle, and I quite enjoy them. It's definitely big-boned, old-fashioned Mozart, but it's not as heavy or slow as that might sound -- it's surprisingly swift in places, actually. It works very well in something like PC20, where a bit of orchestral power is a good thing IMO.
The entire cycle is excellent. It's my top choice. There is something special here when you have a pianist/conductor who has actually conducted all of Mozart's major operas and who can make the link between Mozart's operatic and pianistic writing apparent. The dialogues between orchestra and soloist are extremely well thought out and at every turn you are reminded of excerpts from different operas. I don't find the reduced BPO too big boned here either. It's much leaner, e.g. than Böhm's Mozart symphonies cycle.
Schiff/Vegh has been my default preference for ages, even though I don't actually have the entire cycle. But it's "only" the earlier concertos that aren't represented (pre-19th).
I used to own the entire Anda cycle and fondly recall it's qualities. I wish I still had it.
The nuggets by Goode/Orpheus (mentioned earlier) are splendid indeed and are highly recommendable. Someone should prod these forces into tackling a complete cycle...
Quote from: Manuel on September 10, 2007, 05:44:59 AM
What about the Koopman-Haebler-Brendel set on Philips?
The Brendel set is - as sets go - my favorite. I have Uchida, Brendel, Anda, and Perahia sets now, and a majority of the Perahia interpretations. Perahia does my favorite interpretation of the 19th (though he apparently slows down Mozart's intended tempo), Brendel does my favorite 21st. Uchida for some reason doesn't click for me - very sweet, lush orchestration by Tate. Gilels does a wonderful 27th.
The Anda I only picked up last week, so I'm still learning it.
Quote from: Que on September 08, 2007, 11:25:30 PM
For HIP my favourite is Jos van Immerseel on Channel Classics (complete, but excludes concertos 1-4 that were written for harpsichord) These actually are in state-of-the-art-recordings....
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/12/36312.jpg)
Somehow I had overlooked this one. I have the Gardiner/Bilson set, which is fine, but you need a little variety sometimes, ya know? Ordered! ;D Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Que! ;)
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on October 12, 2008, 01:53:49 PM
Somehow I had overlooked this one. I have the Gardiner/Bilson set, which is fine, but you need a little variety sometimes, ya know? Ordered! ;D Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Que! ;)
You're welcome and I'm curious what you make of it. :)
BTW since that coverpicture, the set has been repackaged in a slim line cardboard box:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0723385080169.jpg)
Q
For fortepiano, there are the Richard Goode CDs (with Orpheus). Not a complete set though, just four CDs. Very nice however. But my choice on piano is still the Perahia complete set. Just a nice way of thinking about Mozart. The very fine touch on the keys and the expertice of the ECO. I simply love listening to each and every concerto in the set. Perahia is a natural Mozartian.
Quote from: anasazi on October 19, 2008, 09:48:18 PM
But my choice on piano is still the Perahia complete set. Just a nice way of thinking about Mozart. The very fine touch on the keys and the expertice of the ECO. I simply love listening to each and every concerto in the set. Perahia is a natural Mozartian.
Perahia was my intro to the PC's, and I really loved them, but right now I'm finding his touch to be a little too "reverential". The way Brendel plays seems a little more fascinated with PLAYING, and, as I imagine Mozart himself approached playing before an audience, humoring the audience at times by enjoying his own talent here and there.
I remember years ago I saw a concert with Eric Clapton and Robert Cray trading guitar solos. Cray started playing some flashy riffs, and Clapton looked at him, and laughingly went to a microphone and told him, "Don't even try, Robert, because I will cut you off
at the knees!"
That's the sense I get from Brendel's 21st, that I miss in a Perahia or Uchida. That sort of playful showmanship that establishes not only is the performer having the time of his life, but really enjoying letting the world know it.
Anyone have any comment on Barenboim Teldec set of piano concerto with BPO?
I'd alos like to hear reactions to the new Biss CD...
Quote from: Que on October 12, 2008, 10:28:55 PM
You're welcome and I'm curious what you make of it. :)
BTW since that coverpicture, the set has been repackaged in a slim line cardboard box:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0723385080169.jpg)
Q
Yes, that's the one that arrived. I was actually hoping for the first packaging, it seems a bit classier! Oh well.
I think the sonorities are much clearer here than in Gardiner's set and the balance between piano and orchestra is much better as well. Very nice!
There are some extraordinary recordings of these concertos out there -- and I am very keen to find the best of the bunch.
To kick it off I'll just list some of my favourites and see what you all think.
#14 -- Bilson
#15 -- Solomon
#19 -- Perahia
#20 -- Szell and Serkin
#22 -- Landowska
#24 -- Curzon and Kubelik, Bilson
#26 -- Landowska
#27 -- Schnabel, Curzon and Kubelik
The great enigma for me is Edwin Fischer. I don't know whether I love him or loath him he's such a strong personality. And those cadenzas?!
Two other ones are Casadesus and Uchida.
Thanks for mentioning Casadesus and Uchida, Hermann.
I like Casadesus (he was Glenn Gould's favourite for these concertos)
Uchidda is an excellent piano player, and I like her Debussy Etudes and her Second Vienna School recordings. I also enjoyed a concert she gave of late Beethoven sonatas (I haven't heard the recordings)
But in Mozart and Schubert I think she is a bit bland.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J1AJR0DQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-The-Piano-Concertos/dp/B00002DEGZ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232543911&sr=1-1)
8)
I must say I think that the Gardiner Bilson set is the best complete set I know -- better than Buchbinder and better than Perrahia. Provided you're not allergic to the fortepiano.
I think Bilson is a truly great pianist. His Mozart sonatas are Gouldian -- but he can pull off the Buffo approach to Mozart more often than Gould on the whole (though I think that Gould is unsurpassed in some of the sonatas, and he's the best ever in the C minor fantasy.)
The Gould Mozart concerto is interesting -- #24. But for me it's only really special in the variations movement. The first two movements are well played but not as poetic as Curzon and Kubelck, or as witty as Bilson and Gardiner, I think.
PS -- can someone please explain how you get an image in this editor?
Quote from: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 04:29:08 AM
PS -- can someone please explain how you get an image in this editor?
1. Click reply, then on the blue link, click "Additional Options" and choose an image to attach from your computer's hard drive.
2. Or click the third icon from the left above the smileys. Then paste a url from an online image between the two sets of brackets (I omit the "url" because it won't show the text if I do) - [][/].
I like Haskil's concertos, Casadesus and the sets of Anda and Perahia.
http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Piano-Concertos-Nos-20/dp/B000009D79/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232546640&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Piano-Concertos-Nos-24/dp/B0000277GE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232546684&sr=8-1
Two of my absolute favorites.
Casadesus (mainly w/ Szell, in several of the concerti)
Annie Fischer.
Moravec.
Fleisher (w/ Szell in 25).
Lili Kraus (w/ Monteux in 14 & 18).
And most especially...Haskil (w/ Markevitch, Fricsay, others--this artist is still a first choice for me in virtually any Mozart concerto she played, mainly from 19 and higher).
I could also mention Schnabel, whose Mozart PC#20 (with Dobrowen IIRC*) in a truly ancient, noisy recording nevertheless broke through the sonic snobbery barrier that surrounded my listening attitude one evening in the early 1980s...and utterly converted me to a new appreciation of phrasing, power and artistic skill. True, I later found performances of the piece that I liked even better, but those kind of "eureka!" experiences make vivid impressions.
;)
Dirk
* I was wrong. It was Susskind.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 01:55:32 AM
The great enigma for me is Edwin Fischer. I don't know whether I love him or loath him he's such a strong personality. And those cadenzas?!
Edwin Fischer is one of my absolute favourite pianists (in his repertoire), and I love more or less all his Mozart PC recordings. It seems like he reaches depths in these works like no other (maybe these depths don't even exist in the works to begin with :)) - well, at least such personality from the pianist works big time for me). Other Mozart pianists I like the most are Solomon, Casadesus, Haskil. The only work I've done a big comparison for is the 23'rd, and there I really liked Solomon, but e.g. Pollini/Bohm was very nice being accompanied by WP.
Quote from: rubio on January 21, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
Other Mozart pianists I like the most are Solomon, Casadesus, Haskil. The only work I've done a big comparison for is the 23'rd, and there I really liked Solomon...
Rubio, your comments here make me realize that it's been years since I listened to Solomon in Mozart. I seem to recall an LP box set of assorted Mozart concerti and sonatas that's been gathering dust on my shelves for ages. And it's not because I don't appreciate the pianist. Quite the contrary: Solomon's versions of Beethoven, Brahms et al get loads of turntable time (and his Chopin CD gets spun a lot on my boombox at work). Maybe it's time for me to rediscover ol' Sol's WAM! Thanks.
Dirk
Lortie.
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on January 21, 2009, 04:19:17 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J1AJR0DQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-The-Piano-Concertos/dp/B00002DEGZ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232543911&sr=1-1)
Well, the above is the HIP set (of a total of 3 that I own posted on the opening of this thread) that I currently own - now listening to the first disc (after a long absence!) - as expected, the
fortepiano has a much more delicate sound but one which I really enjoy (and have acquired many other performances on this instrument) - if you want a HIP collection of these works, this is still one of the best to obtain - short comparison review HERE (http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/a/arc63111a.php) - :D
Casadesus > all. Ok i'm out.
Mozart's piano concertos!
Lovely, lovely, lovely! [etc.]
I prefer the sound of a fortepiano, accompanied by old instruments.
Bilson/Gardiner maybe wins it when you compare the sound of the recordings, but Van Immerseel offers far more variety, IMO. If I had to select, I'd definitely choose Van Immerseel.
About the modern piano I can't really 'judge'. But somehow I do like Zacharias.
Though no one can beat Clara Haskil!
After listening to both the Bilson/Gardiner and Immerseel sets my overall impression was that Gardiner's was a lot more lively on the whole than Immerseel's, with upbeat tempi and playing; Immerseel saunters through most of the faster movements, though he handles the slower ones wonderfully. Immerseel's is definitely the best technically-speaking; the fortepiano/orchestra balance in the Gardiner cycle is a bit off, tipped in favour of the orchestra. However, technical quality comes second to the quality of the performances themselves for me, so Gardiner's is the one I plug in most often. Also, Immerseel's is lacking No.'s 7 & 10.
Quote from: MandrykaThe Gould Mozart concerto is interesting -- #24. But for me it's only really special in the variations movement. The first two movements are well played but not as poetic as Curzon and Kubelck, or as witty as Bilson and Gardiner, I think.
I had Gould's at one point. I recall it was a rather lax interpretation. Of course, one buys the recording for Gould's playing - the man always has some tricks up his sleeves!
Quote from: rubio on January 21, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
The only work I've done a big comparison for is the 23'rd, and there I really liked Solomon...
I broke out the Solomon Mozart EMI LPs and put on the 23rd. How lovely, lively and articulate it is! Thanks again, Rubio.
;)
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on January 22, 2009, 07:05:37 PM
I broke out the Solomon Mozart EMI LPs and put on the 23rd. How lovely, lively and articulate it is! Thanks again, Rubio.
;)
Dirk
I'm happy to have steered you in the right direction :). Solomon has plenty of poise and elegance here, and I think the balance with the orchestra is close to perfect. The clarinet sounds so gorgeous in the adagio!
Quote from: dirkronk on January 22, 2009, 07:05:37 PM
I broke out the Solomon Mozart EMI LPs and put on the 23rd. How lovely, lively and articulate it is! Thanks again, Rubio.
;)
Dirk
Try Solomon in #15 -- for me it's one of the greatest concerto performances I know.
Is there anyone who knows Fou Ts'Ong's Mozart concerto recordings?
There are a handful on the Meridian label with a Polish orchestra.
I've never heard this pianist -- but I have occasionally heard good things about him.
Any of you other HIP buffs heard this?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KS2GXEG8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Piano-Concertos-20-23/dp/B00018ZRYK/ref=pd_sim_m_3)
Quote from: Mandryka on January 24, 2009, 12:00:45 PM
Is there anyone who knows Fou Ts'Ong's Mozart concerto recordings?
There are a handful on the Meridian label with a Polish orchestra.
I've never heard this pianist -- but I have occasionally heard good things about him.
yes i have his Mozart concerto recordings with the Warsaw Symphony, they were originally on a different label.
i think they are excellent. I have to say that his recording of #24 is my personal fave out of all the many recordings that i have heard so far of that work. But others may disagree.
Quote from: Tyson on September 12, 2007, 06:08:43 PM
No mention of Brendel? I think his glittering tone works with mozart much better than most other pianists mentioned here, all of whom seem to offer a softer grained sound (even Schiff).
I like Brendel's, too. My second CD was his Philips Silver Line version of 23 and 27. It and Brendel's Schubert D960 were my intro to classical (other than movie music I'd bought over the years).
Quote from: B_cereus on January 29, 2009, 01:25:07 PM
yes i have his Mozart concerto recordings with the Warsaw Symphony, they were originally on a different label.
i think they are excellent. I have to say that his recording of #24 is my personal fave out of all the many recordings that i have heard so far of that work. But others may disagree.
Have you heard Curzon with Kubelick. Or Bilson and Gardiner.
If you say it's as interesting as either of those I'll order it straight away!
I just ordered this set ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 01, 2009, 02:27:21 PM
I just ordered this set ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Great choice! :D From the first page of this thread (quoted below) are the sets that I currently own - whew, I think 3 are enough @ the moment, but always willing to hear the thoughts of others - ;) :) Dave
QuoteMark - for 'complete sets', I've tried to refine my collection over the last year or so, based on recommendations here (and elsewhere) - I now have 3 sets (old, new, & HIP) - I'm sure that you'll get plenty of suggestions, but these are the ones that I currently own & enjoy:
Schiff-Vegh on Decca (1985-94)
Anda on DG (1962-71) - one of my favs (PC #21 from the movie Elvira Madigan)
Bilson-Gardiner on Archiv Prod (1983-88)
Quote from: Mandryka on January 31, 2009, 12:03:43 PM
Have you heard Curzon with Kubelick. Or Bilson and Gardiner.
If you say it's as interesting as either of those I'll order it straight away!
i have heard Bilson/Gardiner and Curzon/Kertesz but not wth Kubelik.
don't buy it in case it's not to your liking... if you are interested i could provide you with a sample of the recording... *cough*
Quote from: SonicMan on February 01, 2009, 02:53:49 PM
Great choice! :D From the first page of this thread (quoted below) are the sets that I currently own - whew, I think 3 are enough @ the moment, but always willing to hear the thoughts of others - ;) :) Dave
I knew Anda from the movie Elvira Madigan but did not come across this set until recently. I am essentially an early music guy whose emphasis has always been baroque and early music, though I started out in classical music focusing on the classical and romantic periods.
Quote from: B_cereus on February 01, 2009, 04:07:44 PM
don't buy it in case it's not to your liking... if you are interested i could provide you with a sample of the recording... *cough*
Thanks for that offer.
I don't know why I'm being so cautious -- I usually am completely impetuous when it comes to CDs.
A sample would be great if you could upload it onto some file sharing service like mediafire.
ok i'll pm you when i've done it
of course i don't want to promote anything illegal so if you do like it then you can buy the cd to support the artist, especially when it's those artists who aren't on lucrative recording contracts with the majors... and if you don't like it then save your money for something else :)
i'd also like to recommend Alicia de Larrocha in Mozart concertos. :)
Quote from: B_cereus on February 12, 2009, 04:23:30 AM
i'd also like to recommend Alicia de Larrocha in Mozart concertos. :)
Hey B Cereus!
Any concertos in particular?
I like this pianist a lot.
they are all good Mandryka, in my opinion... she's a fine Mozartian I don't know why but sometimes i feel female pianists often seem to do Mozart better than male pianists (though i am sure someone will shoot me down for this).
i like AdL's CD recordings of 19, 22, 23, 24.
there are youtube videos of her playing Mozart concertos too, that you might want to check out.
So what other versions are competitive with the Anda's set, which is considered one of the best ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 05:15:41 PM
So what other versions are competitive with the Anda's set, which is considered one of the best ...
Schiff/Vegh is a winner.
Quote from: Bulldog on February 13, 2009, 06:15:45 PM
Schiff/Vegh is a winner.
Agreed.
Same orchestra, BTW, as Anda. Better sound, though.
Quote from: donwyn on February 13, 2009, 07:08:34 PM
Agreed.
Same orchestra, BTW, as Anda. Better sound, though.
Probably recorded at a later date?
The Schiff / Vegh Mozart is especially interesting because of the accompaniment. In a lot of concertos Schiff is his usual vague unexpressive self IMO.
I like Anda a lot, but it is far from perfect. It has a spontaneous feel, and occasionally it's a little rough. But these performances are always lively.
A heads-up for lovers of pianist, Clifford Curzon (and for those who enjoy Mozart piano concerti).
I've just received my advance copy of the March 2009 edition of BBC Music magazine, the free cover disc with which contains two Mozart piano concerti (Nos. 21 & 23) which have been hiding in the BBC archives since 1976 and 1963, respectively. The orchestras/conductors supporting Curzon are the BBC Symphony Orchestra/Bernhaard Klee (No. 21); and the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra/George Hurst (No. 23).
Sound is pretty good given the age of these recordings, and the performances, while not benchmarks, are generally sprightly and enjoyable.
FK
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 05:15:41 PM
So what other versions are competitive with the Anda's set, which is considered one of the best ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SDJYBPG6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Agree w/ the others about the
Schiff/Vegh (pic inserted above) - these are the two 'modern' sets that I own and enjoy both - differences regarding recording times, as already discussed; do you want a HIP instrument set? If so, suggestions have also been provided previously - good luck in your choice(s) - :)
P.S. Noticed that the Schiff set is $80+ on Amazon (got mine a number of years ago for $40), so you may have to do some searching if that box interests you!
Quote from: SonicMan on February 14, 2009, 06:47:54 AM
Agree w/ the others about the Schiff/Vegh (pic inserted above) - these are the two 'modern' sets that I own and enjoy both - differences regarding recording times, as already discussed; do you want a HIP instrument set? If so, suggestions have also been provided previously - good luck in your choice(s) - :)
P.S. Noticed that the Schiff set is $80+ on Amazon (got mine a number of years ago for $40), so you may have to do some searching if that box interests you!
I already have the Anda'a box set but have not gotten around to play it yet. I have many other recordings by Andras Schiff and generally like him as a pianist. Mozart is not one of my favorite composers and I am not sure if I want to get more than one set of his Piano Concertos. However, I may make an exception since his piano concertos are often considered his best works.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 08:26:39 AM
I already have the Anda'a box set but have not gotten around to play it yet. I have many other recordings by Andras Schiff and generally like him as a pianist. Mozart is not one of my favorite composers and I am not sure if I want to get more than one set of his Piano Concertos. However, I may make an exception since his piano concertos are often considered his best works.
I like the ones from 20-27 best, and have listened to many versions. My favorites are:
20: Anda or Gulda/Abbado
21: Anda or Gulda/Abbado
22: Uchida or Brendel/Mackerras
23: Brendel/Marriner/ASMF (w/27) or Perahia
24: Perahia or Anda
25: Perahia or Anda
26: Perahia or Anda
27: Brendel/Marriner/ASMF (w/23)
Later on, I listened to some by Casadesus/Szell, and I liked every one of them. They can be HTF/expensive when you can.
I have only heard two of Schiff's and I don't remember which they were. By the time he got around to doing them, I already had crowned my favorites, and his didn't do anything to supplant them.
I can't say much about relative sound quality, as I had Anda's on cassette, and only listened to it in a somewhat noisy environment. Some people don't like the sound quality of Perahia's and then there's the potential for many of them to have been remastered in DSD, SACD, etc. I know nothing about that, as I bought all of these in the '80s and very early '90s. The sound quality always sounded fine to me on all of these.
Anyone mentioned Rudolf Buchbinder's Mozart concertos set?
It's excellent :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/316ImcdzirL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Aeolian harp on August 14, 2009, 08:37:22 AM
Anyone mentioned Rudolf Buchbinder's Mozart concertos set?
It's excellent :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/316ImcdzirL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Yes -- it's very good. If someone wants a complete survey then this is the one I would recommend.
I don't know if he's ever the best in any of the later concertos though -- the ones between 14 and 27.
There's also some nice DVD performance by him -- the one with PC 24 especially. In fact I prefer his VPO 24 to Pollini's. Excellent though Pollini is there's a heaviness about it.
Still -- neither would be my favourite 24.
Yeah :)
I think taken all together as a set, Buchbinder's compares well with the best of the rest.
I first listened to them based on Scott Morrison's rave reviews on Amazon, and he was not wrong.
Buchbinder seems a little underrated, maybe not as well known as maybe he ought to be.
The downside of complete sets would apply here, too, wouldn't it?
No performer is equally good in all ctos.
Quote from: Aeolian harp on August 14, 2009, 12:41:49 PM
Yeah :)
I think taken all together as a set, Buchbinder's compares well with the best of the rest.
Hello
Aeolian harp - I currently own 3 complete sets of
Mozart's Piano Concertos, i.e. Anda, Schiff, & Bilson - these have been decided upon over many years and are likely some of the top selections, but there are so many to choose from in this category?
I'm just curious from your statement above about
Buchbinder, whether you have listened to & compared some of the competition - I only hope that your opinion is based on having heard the 'competition' - if not, then there may be an issue?
Now, I own
Buchbinder's Haydn's Piano Sonatas box set (my third - why buy so many? !) - and enjoy! :D
Quote from: SonicMan on August 14, 2009, 05:06:48 PM
Hello Aeolian harp - I currently own 3 complete sets of Mozart's Piano Concertos, i.e. Anda, Schiff, & Bilson - these have been decided upon over many years and are likely some of the top selections, but there are so many to choose from in this category?
I'm just curious from your statement above about Buchbinder, whether you have listened to & compared some of the competition - I only hope that your opinion is based on having heard the 'competition' - if not, then there may be an issue?
Now, I own Buchbinder's Haydn's Piano Sonatas box set (my third - why buy so many? !) - and enjoy! :D
I don't know Schiff's, but I would definately say that Bilson and Gardiner is better than Buchbinder, provided you're not alergic to fortepiano.
I never mentioned it in my earlier post because the last time I checked the set was deleted. I hope it's back.
In the famous 24, their performance is one of my favourites. And in 14 their performance of the final contrapuntal romp is the best I know by far (suggestions for better would be appreciated)
As far as I can recall there is no real dud in the set (though I must say I can't remember much about their 27)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 05:15:41 PM
So what other versions are competitive with the Anda's set, which is considered one of the best ...
I'd say Perahia/ECO. As a complete set.
But one should also sample single disks. Lately I've fallen completely for the two fairly recent Pollini/VPO releases. But then, I'm a bloody modernist too.
Quote from: SonicMan on August 14, 2009, 05:06:48 PM
Hello Aeolian harp - I currently own 3 complete sets of Mozart's Piano Concertos, i.e. Anda, Schiff, & Bilson - these have been decided upon over many years and are likely some of the top selections, but there are so many to choose from in this category?
I'm just curious from your statement above about Buchbinder, whether you have listened to & compared some of the competition - I only hope that your opinion is based on having heard the 'competition' - if not, then there may be an issue?
Now, I own Buchbinder's Haydn's Piano Sonatas box set (my third - why buy so many? !) - and enjoy! :D
Hi SonicMan...
out of the complete WAM-PC boxsets, I have also heard/owned:
Uchida
Perahia
Barenboim (the earlier ECO set)
Anda
Schiff
Jando
each set has standout gems, but overall, for me, apart from the Buchbinde, I agree that Anda & Schiff are probably the most satisfying. :)
I have not heard Bilson's (yet).
Fortepiano-wise, I have heard a couple of Levin's - did he ever do a complete recorded cycle?
Any comment on Brendel/Marriner? Very cheap on amazon.de now.
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 11:11:58 PM
I'd say Perahia/ECO. As a complete set.
But one should also sample single disks. Lately I've fallen completely for the two fairly recent Pollini/VPO releases. But then, I'm a bloody modernist too.
Yes I think he is both underrated (by the cognescenti who post on music forums) and overrated (by Edward Greenfield et al.)
In 19 and 27 I think he's very good -- in fact in 17 he's probably my favourite -- in that slow movement he spins such a long and unbroken filo, and the whole reading seems so positive and joyful.
And I think he's excellent in the ones before 14 (but I hardly ever listen to them!)
Elsewhere though I think he's soemtimes (but not always) a bit of a wimp -- a bit more oomph is needed IMO. Just compare, if you can, him and Bilson in the final movement of 14 and you'll see what I mean.
Quote from: Herman on February 14, 2009, 01:00:28 AM
I like Anda a lot, but it is far from perfect. It has a spontaneous feel, and occasionally it's a little rough. But these performances are always lively.
Can someone let me know which ones are the high point of the Anda set?
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 11:11:58 PM
I'm a bloody modernist .
Then you shouldn't be listening to Mozart at all, since everyone knows that he is a post-modernist.
I am a proud and happy owner of both Anda and Perahia's set. :)
I wouldn't be without Szell, Casadesus, Haskil, Moravec or Richter's Mozart concerto recordings either.
Quote from: George on August 15, 2009, 05:38:31 AM
I am a proud and happy owner of both Anda and Perahia's set. :)
I wouldn't be without Szell, Casadesus, Haskil, Moravec or Richter's Mozart concerto recordings either.
You should add Curzon/Britten to that list.
Quote from: erato on August 15, 2009, 05:51:43 AM
You should add Curzon/Britten to that list.
I may. I have Curzon/Kertesz, but haven't listened to it yet.
Quote from: erato on August 15, 2009, 05:51:43 AM
You should add Curzon/Britten to that list.
If you like Curzon then I'd be interested to know what you think of his records with Kubelik -- IMO these are amongst the greatest 24s and 27s ever. Poetry and real rapport between soloist and conductor.
Any fans of Edwin Fischer's Mozart?
Quote from: Mandryka on August 15, 2009, 05:26:36 AM
Then you shouldn't be listening to Mozart at all, since everyone knows that he is a post-modernist.
Ok. I'll try to stop.
Attention across board: Has anybody ever managed to stop listening to Mozart?
Some of my favourites
Bashkirov and Barshai -- 17
Gould (studio) -- 24
Horowitz and Giulini -- 23
Landowska and Rodzinski-- 22
Quote from: Valentino on August 16, 2009, 04:22:45 AM
Ok. I'll try to stop.
Attention across board: Has anybody ever managed to stop listening to Mozart?
Most people haven't even started.
Quote from: Herman on August 17, 2009, 01:50:11 AM
Most people haven't even started.
Iago went to his grave a Mozart virgin.
Sarge
I may go through stretches when I don't listen to Mozart............but I always come back for more! 8)
He's still firmly planted in my personal "Top 5 faves".
Quote from: erato on August 15, 2009, 05:19:37 AM
Any comment on Brendel/Marriner? Very cheap on amazon.de now.
They're very good -- though I would add that I think his records with Mackerras are even better. MacKerras must surely be the greatest living Mozart conductor, and Brendel. in his later years at least, the greatest living Mozart pianist.
Quote from: Valentino on August 16, 2009, 04:22:45 AM
Ok. I'll try to stop.
Attention across board: Has anybody ever managed to stop listening to Mozart?
Why would anyone want to try? Even the dead get to hear Mozart, as his music is in heavy rotation in Heaven. (Some might visit warmer climes after shuffling off this mortal coil. I've heard that Wagner never tires of humming his tunes for those who cannot run fast or far enough to avoid him.)
Just yesterday I listened to Ashkenazy's lush, Romantic way with the D minor concerto, and I have Minkowsky's G minor symphony in the stack for today's listening.
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on January 22, 2009, 02:48:42 AM
After listening to both the Bilson/Gardiner and Immerseel sets my overall impression was that Gardiner's was a lot more lively on the whole than Immerseel's, with upbeat tempi and playing; Immerseel saunters through most of the faster movements, though he handles the slower ones wonderfully. Immerseel's is definitely the best technically-speaking; the fortepiano/orchestra balance in the Gardiner cycle is a bit off, tipped in favour of the orchestra. However, technical quality comes second to the quality of the performances themselves for me, so Gardiner's is the one I plug in most often.
A great Forte Piano concerto set for Mozart still is yet to be done..........unfortunately
The older
Bilson/Archiv has great vibrant orchestral work by Gardiner but the forte piano is dwarfed in scale by the orchestra in the recording and sounds very muffled, a shame that engineers did not do something to rebalance the sound. The newer
Immerseel set has much better sound balance in scale between forte piano/orchestra but strangely lacks the dramatic punch/panache needed and often sounds too relaxed both orchestra and piano, so I guess Immerseel is the lesser of two evils and the preferred set...........but you need only listen to the excellent forte piano concertos of Andreas Staier or Ronald Brautigam (Haydn) to know much better is possible and desperately needed
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WcKb1aAGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MM1yL1X8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I also rather like the Schiff/Decca set..........despite the rather restrained playing style used by Schiff
The Decca sound is quite good with natural bloom and sense of 3D soundstage, Sandor Vegh & Orchestra offer very lively well sprung support with just the right size scale and balance, great job. Schiff in the notes says his approach to Mozart is "less is more" and he plays very straight will little ornament or overt panache. The advantage for Schiff set lies with selection of Bosendorfer Imperial piano which sounds closer to a forte piano than modern grand, very clear treble and natural in scale when playing the concertos.......almost just like a larger more refined forte piano, just sounds right with Mozart. Too bad there is no discussion of piano model or special playing techniques in the notes.
When compared to say Ashkenazy/Decca although he plays with more extrovert style and vigor than Schiff, his piano just sounds too lush and full and not as natural with Mozart as Schiff's instrument.......
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SDJYBPG6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 07, 2009, 10:07:24 AM
I also rather like the Schiff/Decca set..........despite the rather restrained playing style used by Schiff
The Decca sound is quite good with natural bloom and sense of 3D soundstage, Sandor Vegh & Orchestra offer very lively well sprung support with just the right size scale and balance, great job. Schiff in the notes says his approach to Mozart is "less is more" and he plays very straight will little ornament or overt panache.
Vegh's conducting is often eally good. I wonder if Schiff is aware that his "less is more" and "straight" is most likely not at all how Mozart played his concertos. The notation at times is rather spare, but that's because the notation was just a memory aide for Mozart the performing pianist and conductor.
Quote from: Herman on September 07, 2009, 10:46:54 AM
Vegh's conducting is often eally good. I wonder if Schiff is aware that his "less is more" and "straight" is most likely not at all how Mozart played his concertos. The notation at times is rather spare, but that's because the notation was just a memory aide for Mozart the performing pianist and conductor.
Funny, that was my thought exactly when I was reading DA's post. In all likelihood, Mozart himself ornamented the hell out of these works, although never to the point of gaudy taste. But hey, let's not get all HIP now... :D
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Quartetto Italiano - Brahms Quartet #3 in Bb for Strings Op 67 2nd mvmt
Quote from: Herman on September 07, 2009, 10:46:54 AM
Vegh's conducting is often eally good. I wonder if Schiff is aware that his "less is more" and "straight" is most likely not at all how Mozart played his concertos. The notation at times is rather spare, but that's because the notation was just a memory aide for Mozart the performing pianist and conductor.
Agreed.......
Schiff mentions in notes that the orchestral sections of concertos were well worked out and documented, but the piano sections were
"sketchy' and required performer to fill in many pieces.........Mozart as piano player/conductor of course only needed reminders and he could freely fill in as concerto progressed.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 07, 2009, 10:56:15 AM
In all likelihood, Mozart himself ornamented the hell out of these works
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 07, 2009, 11:01:09 AM
the orchestral sections of concertos were well worked out and documented, but the piano sections were
"sketchy' and required performer to fill in many pieces.........Mozart as piano player/conductor of course only needed reminders and he could freely fill in as concerto progressed.
How I wish I could attend one of those concerts? *sigh*
If you want a complete set of these works, period instruments recording, you need to get the Viviana Sofronitzki & Musicae Antiquae Collegium Varsoviense conducted by Tadeusz Karolak. It includes all the mature 23 concertos plus the early arrangements (KV 37-41 and the KV 107 Concertos 1-3). I have a weak spot in listening to KV 107, as it was one of the very first classical pieces I ever heard on a vinyl LP recording. I was about 5 years old and my father had it in his collection. Later in my life I spent quite some time and effort to find a decent interpretation on CD.
Full review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Mozart_Sofronitzki_041051.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Mozart_Sofronitzki_041051.htm)
Quote from: LapsangS on September 12, 2009, 11:27:01 PM
If you want a complete set of these works, period instruments recording, you need to get the Viviana Sofronitzki & Musicae Antiquae Collegium Varsoviense conducted by Tadeusz Karolak. It includes all the mature 23 concertos plus the early arrangements (KV 37-41 and the KV 107 Concertos 1-3). I have a weak spot in listening to KV 107, as it was one of the very first classical pieces I ever heard on a vinyl LP recording. I was about 5 years old and my father had it in his collection. Later in my life I spent quite some time and effort to find a decent interpretation on CD.
Full review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Mozart_Sofronitzki_041051.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Mozart_Sofronitzki_041051.htm)
Interesting. I did notice that review but frankly, I dismissed it because the reviewer seemed not very familiar with HIP performances - in general and of Mozart's piano concertos in particular. Naturally that doesn't mean this recording isn't worthwhile. Could you make any comparison with others, like Bilson/Gardiner or Immerseel?
Q
In the past, I used to avoid HIP recordings of Mozart PCs, the only set I had in my collection was the Baremboim/English CO (EMI). But I think I can compare this Sofronitski/MACV set favourably with Andreas Staier & Concerto Köln recordings. Both are excellent soloists and ensembles, recorded with modern crisp sound. The fortepiano is not miked too distant, it is always clearly audible even during the loudest orchestral passages.
Here is a sample mp3 file from Sofronitzki's website: http://www.sofronitzki.com/music/mozart.mp3 (http://www.sofronitzki.com/music/mozart.mp3)
(Of course Staier hasn't yet recorded complete set of Mozart PCs, but I hope he will finalize it one day. I really like his playing too).
Quote from: LapsangS on September 13, 2009, 05:37:40 AM
In the past, I used to avoid HIP recordings of Mozart PCs, the only set I had in my collection was the Baremboim/English CO (EMI). But I think I can compare this Sofronitski/MACV set favourably with Andreas Staier & Concerto Köln recordings. Both are excellent soloists and ensembles, recorded with modern crisp sound. The fortepiano is not miked too distant, it is always clearly audible even during the loudest orchestral passages.
Here is a sample mp3 file from Sofronitzki's website: http://www.sofronitzki.com/music/mozart.mp3 (http://www.sofronitzki.com/music/mozart.mp3)
(Of course Staier hasn't yet recorded complete set of Mozart PCs, but I hope he will finalize it one day. I really like his playing too).
Very impressed with that sample and agree that it is similar in overall style to Andeas Staier........and for me much better than Bilson or Immerseel. Has very good sound with proper scale between forte piano and orchestra, and Viviana has a more dramatic playing style compared to Immerseel which I prefer.
Very expensive set to buy however $111 from Amazon sellers :(
FWIW: Ever since Donwyn (our Dancing Divertimentarian) persuaded me to try Schiff/Vegh it has been my reference set. Buchbinder's more recent set is pretty darned good, too. Goode is terrific but recorded only the later ctos. Immerseel is okay if you must have a period pianoforte, but I don't like the sound of the instrument (though he's less objectionable than some I've heard) but the orchestra is fine (if just a bit bloodless--not quite up to the engagement of their Beethoven symphony set, methinks). I like Uchida's Mozart but do not like Tate's gushy big band approach. If I want Romanticized big band Mozart, I'll take Ashkenazy, thanks (and I do, sometimes, particularly for the D minor #20!).
Why my two cents? Mostly to throw the neglected Buchbinder into the mix. Maybe if he looked like Grimaud instead of like your plumber he'd get more notice.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 13, 2009, 07:51:40 AM
FWIW: Ever since Donwyn (our Dancing Divertimentarian) persuaded me to try Schiff/Vegh it has been my reference set.
That was the first rec of mine to be taken up by someone on this board. Glad it's given you your money's worth, Dave!
QuoteWhy my two cents? Mostly to throw the neglected Buchbinder into the mix. Maybe if he looked like Grimaud instead of like your plumber he'd get more notice.
8)
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 13, 2009, 05:51:19 AM
Very impressed with that sample and agree that it is similar in overall style to Andeas Staier........and for me much better than Bilson or Immerseel. Has very good sound with proper scale between forte piano and orchestra, and Viviana has a more dramatic playing style compared to Immerseel which I prefer.
I did more research on
Viviana Sofronitzki complete set on forte piano and I just love what I hear, I purchased complete set from
Arkiv which has better price than Amazon at $86 for 11 CD set, this will be my reference forte piano set no doubt!
Thanks to
Lampsang for alerting me to this fine set as I was completely unaware of it before
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/201826.jpg)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 13, 2009, 08:48:53 AM
That was the first rec of mine to be taken up by someone on this board. Glad it's given you your money's worth, Dave!
8)
And then some, Don. IIRC, this was only the first of several recommendations by you that has pleased me greatly. Blomstedt/SFS Brahms's
German Requiem comes quickly to mind, for instance. In fact, I cannot recall any significant disagreement with you in matters of taste (save for my puzzlement over your fondness for Ashkenazy's Sibelius, which rubs me the wrong way although many others share your favorable opinion! 8) ).
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 15, 2009, 09:25:57 AM
...(save for my puzzlement over your fondness for Ashkenazy's Sibelius, which rubs me the wrong way although many others share your favorable opinion! 8) ).
I'm
trying not to like it but so far it hasn't worked out. ;D
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 14, 2009, 05:02:59 PM
I did more research on Viviana Sofronitzki complete set on forte piano and I just love what I hear, I purchased complete set from
Arkiv which has better price than Amazon at $86 for 11 CD set, this will be my reference forte piano set no doubt!
Thanks to Lampsang for alerting me to this fine set as I was completely unaware of it before
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/201826.jpg)
I recieved my set, version sold by ArKiv uses cardboard sleeves for Cds (not jewel cases) so outer box is not that big.
This is the best forte piano complete set available, avoids the weakness of Bilson & Immerseel mentioned in above posts, has great modern sound overall and very important has proper balance in scale between forte piano and orchestra. Sofronitzki is more dramatic and overtly expressive compared to Immerseel which suites my taste, but I am still not 100% satisfied after hearing forte piano concertos by Staier & Brautingam, there is still a small window open for even greater improvement........it may never happen however so for now this is the reference complete forte piano set for Mozart
DarkAngel, It's nice to hear that you enjoy the set as much as I do :)
Quote from: LapsangS on September 17, 2009, 11:42:01 PM
DarkAngel, It's nice to hear that you enjoy the set as much as I do :)
I previously owned Mozart forte piano concertos only as a curiosity from Bilson, Tan, Lubin, Levin and always found them lacking overall
The recent Immerseel concerto set closed the gap for me opened my mind more to merits of forte piano.
Individual concerto Cds by Staier and Brautingam completely opened the door for me, I was now a forte piano advocate and enjoyed them very much........if only a complete set could ever emerge from these two
This brings us to the new Sofronitzki concerto set which raises the bar even higher and will convince many skeptics that forte piano concertos can reach reference status with Mozart, can often make modern piano versions sound out of place.
Immerseel and Brautingam have fabulous Mozart sonata sets on forte piano, Immerseel here is more animated and dramatic compared to the concertos for some strange reason......
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21XKAMSHRVL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512JBRX4SNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
next
I believe the fact of beeing portuguese is not a bias in my appreciation: Maria João Pires is one of the most naturally inspired Mozartian interpreters. The Erato box set compilation - B0014BO79O - of her old Mozart concerto recordings is a (still available) bargain.
Carlos
Chamber versions of early Piano Concertos........
Look what I just found, early Mozart concertos performed basically as piano quintets.
Wonderful idea that is a refreshing take on things, very cheap on EMI Gemini series, offers great insights
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ObILASwUL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 14, 2009, 05:02:59 PM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/201826.jpg)
It arrived the other day and I just played PC 22 and the variations movement of 24 and the Rondo K382 (CD6).
I thought 22 was fantastic -- joyful. Not as emotionally rich as Landowska or Brendel with Mackerras perhaps. But great fun nevertheless.
And 24 (which is my favourite concerto) had some really attention grabbing things -- unexpected accelerandos, for example -- which I really liked. Gould is more astonishing; Brendel with Mackerras more tragic, maybe. But this was once again great fun.
And it's so good to have such a well played HIP version -- I am used to modern instruments and the HIP orchestras always make me smile with pleasure.
I didn't enjoy the Rondo K382 really. Compare it with Edwin Fischer's two recorded versions. Fischer finds a sort of reflective serenity in it. With Sofronitski this short piece rapidly outstayed its welcome.
Despite my reservations about that K382, I am very pleased to have this set -- so thanks for putting me on to it.
Anyone have these disks?
I have the Pletnev/Virgin concertos..........
very extrovert style with maximum dramatic contrast, makes an interesting contrast to a relaxed style like Perahia for instance
Cheaper to buy budget priced 4CD Virgin box that includes Haydn concertos also
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31P3RCFE9YL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I gave it a shot, and I agree with you. I like the tension and drama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/FeB4L1__RKs&feature=response_watch
Haydn piano concertos...I heard them once, thankfully there are only 3? I was pretty bored. Sorry Mr. Haydn!
Quote from: Mozart on October 02, 2009, 07:20:25 PM
Haydn piano concertos...I heard them once, thankfully there are only 3? I was pretty bored. Sorry Mr. Haydn!
There are at least 5 Haydn keyboard concertos.
Quote from: Bulldog on October 02, 2009, 07:53:27 PM
There are at least 5 Haydn keyboard concertos.
In that case I am thankful for only having heard 3! I remember specifically one in D that was really really boring
Quote from: Mozart on October 02, 2009, 08:11:45 PM
In that case I am thankful for only having heard 3! I remember specifically one in D that was really really boring
I think you will like the way Pletnev handles Haydn PC in the Virgin boxset (4cds for price of 1), I thought they were very enjoyable.
Another great rendition of Haydn piano concertos using forte piano is
Brautigam/BISStrong feature of Pletnev's Mozart PCs are the bold and exciting cadenza work, sounds like a virtuoso pianist improvising
on the spot, I really like these and play them quite often.
Even more dramatic in style (if you can imagine that) is
Marhta Argerich, she only has a very limited number of recordings but I have not heard any more aggressive or dramatic presentions than this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41R0BG3DZCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Mozart on October 02, 2009, 07:20:25 PM
Haydn piano concertos...I heard them once, thankfully there are only 3? I was pretty bored. Sorry Mr. Haydn!
Mozart - now be realistic! ;) ;D Do you really think that
Papa Haydn would write only 3 Piano Concertos? ::)
Check out the 4-CD pacakge below which I've been 'eyeing' for a while - Amazon lists
21 Piano Concertos - and who knows that may not be all of them (would need to check his thematic catalog).
Plus, I'm not sure 'who' you heard playing the Haydn PCs, but checkout
Ronald Brautigam's performances - if you don't like him in this repertoire, then I can believe your statement above - :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JWJEMEA0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MM1yL1X8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I listened to Brendel Marriner's 482 and 491 today, and I have mixed feelings about this.
In the 482 middle mvt it is most apparent there's a big soloist - conductor mismatch. Brendel is desperately giving dramatic sforzandi on his part, but the orchestra is just plain bland in comparison. There are several problems with the virtually contemporaneous Uchida - Tate recording but their 482 is much more dramataic, probably because Tate is no stranger to Mozart operas.
Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2009, 08:21:59 AM
I listened to Brendel Marriner's 482 and 491 today, and I have mixed feelings about this.
In the 482 middle mvt it is most apparent there's a big soloist - conductor mismatch. Brendel is desperately giving dramatic sforzandi on his part, but the orchestra is just plain bland in comparison. There are several problems with the virtually contemporaneous Uchida - Tate recording but their 482 is much more dramataic, probably because Tate is no stranger to Mozart operas.
What did you think of the K491?
The 22 with Mackerras is great fun, I thought.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 12, 2009, 09:45:41 AM
What did you think of the K491?
Brendel's 491 with Marriner is much better than their 482. The tempo is urgent right from the start.
Nonetheless it's a recording that, I suspect, will not figure much in my future listening. As in 482, the orchestral playing, both in the tutti and the wind solos, is not of the highest level of engagement, and the recording technique doesn't help either - somehow it sounds as if there's a curtain between Brendel and the orchestra. This cto is the one with the largest orchestra Mozart ever employed in a concerto; odd as it seem from a classicist standpoint, the orchestral exposition should be near-devastating, when the piano first emerges it should be like a hand reaching out of the darkness, and that's just not the case here*. Also if I make a comparison with the near-contemporary Uchida recording, Tate's ECO sounds more dramatic, and also, Uchida manages to conveigh more character and humor in her part in the finale. And I'm not saying the Uchida is a better of even recommendable recording. It's just strange that Brendel is (relatively) lacking in the humor dept.
* Obviously Brendel has thought longer and better about 491's character than I; no one will pay cash to hear "my" 491. The problem is this record just doesn't quite persuade me of a consistent vision, although I would not put it beyond Philips / Decca to have made it harder with the severely undramatic way they engineered the orchestra - piano mix.
Anyone heard this 2CD concerto set with Schornsheim?
A forte piano version which immediately gets my attention, I have other works by Schornsheim I greatly enjoy
so I am already interested.......just need a push, am concerned the orchestral parts may not be up to her high standards
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gg4-puczL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 04:37:41 PM
Anyone heard this 2CD concerto set with Schornsheim?
A forte piano version which immediately gets my attention, I have other works by Schornsheim I greatly enjoy
so I am already interested.......just need a push
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gg4-puczL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
DA, I am not like certain people who claim to know it all, but I have yet to experience the artistry of Christine Schornsheim. Which of her recordings do you think is her signature performance?
Quote from: Coopmv on November 28, 2009, 04:43:25 PM
DA, I am not like certain people who claim to know it all, but I have yet to experience the artistry of Christine Schornsheim. Which of her recordings do you think is her signature performance?
She has a relatively small body of recorded works centered around Haydn, Vivaldi, Bach and similar baroque composers. Does not use piano but instead forte piano, harpsicord, and organ as needed. Her most noteable recording (which many people here have) are the complete Haydn keyboard sonatas ($63 new at Amazon USA 14 Cds).......which are direct competiton to the fine Brautigam set.......don't ask me to choose between them :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411DSD2CPAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
She has a relatively small body of recorded works centered around Haydn, Vivaldi, Bach and similar baroque composers. Does not use piano but instead forte piano, harpsicord, and organ as needed. Her most noteable recording (which many people here have) are the complete Haydn keyboard sonatas.......which are direct competiton to the fine Brautigam set.......don't ask me to choose between them :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411DSD2CPAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I actually have a good number of forte piano performance by Staier, which I have not played in years. Indeed, it takes a bit getting used to the tone of a forte piano ...
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
She has a relatively small body...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411DSD2CPAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Could be the photo.
;D ;) ;D
Quote from: Coopmv on November 28, 2009, 05:08:56 PM
I actually have a good number of forte piano performance by Staier, which I have not played in years. Indeed, it takes a bit getting used to the tone of a forte piano ...
Andreas Staier in at the top of the forte piano food chain, never heard anything less than great from his limited catalog of work.......if only he had more recorded works
Christine Schornsheim (Harpsichord, Organ)
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Schornsheim-Christine-08.jpg) (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Schornsheim-Christine-03.jpg) (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Schornsheim-Christine-05.jpg)
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Schornsheim-Christine-06.jpg)
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
....... Does not use piano but instead forte piano, harpsicord, and organ as needed. Her most noteable recording (which many people here have) are the complete Haydn keyboard sonatas ($63 new at Amazon USA 14 Cds).......which are direct competiton to the fine Brautigam set.......don't ask me to choose between them :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411DSD2CPAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Stuart - DA's suggestion is excellent! Unfortunately that box price has escalated (think that I paid about half that amount a while back), but there are 14 discs! In fact, I'm about to 'pull the trigger' on the 2-CD set of her doing the
Haydn Keyboard Concerti, H. XVIII discussed in one of the Papa Joe threads - Dave :D
Quote from: SonicMan on November 29, 2009, 07:10:34 AM
Stuart - DA's suggestion is excellent! Unfortunately that box price has escalated (think that I paid about half that amount a while back), but there are 14 discs! In fact, I'm about to 'pull the trigger' on the 2-CD set of her doing the Haydn Keyboard Concerti, H. XVIII discussed in one of the Papa Joe threads - Dave :D
I bought this set at £13 at mdt once upon a time (at the height of Capriccio's troubles); it was available at that price for quite some time.
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 04:37:41 PM
Anyone heard this 2CD concerto set with Schornsheim?
A forte piano version which immediately gets my attention, I have other works by Schornsheim I greatly enjoy
so I am already interested.......just need a push, am concerned the orchestral parts may not be up to her high standards
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gg4-puczL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I have the set and think highly of it; there's no problem with the orchestra or conductor. The recordings, made in 1989 and 1991, offer excellent sound as well.
Quote from: Bulldog on November 29, 2009, 10:19:56 PM
I have the set and think highly of it; there's no problem with the orchestra or conductor. The recordings, made in 1989 and 1991, offer excellent sound as well.
Thanks for the impressions............order has been placed :)
GeorgeThat was a nice zinger...........
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 04:37:41 PM
Anyone heard this 2CD concerto set with Schornsheim?
A forte piano version which immediately gets my attention, I have other works by Schornsheim I greatly enjoy
so I am already interested.......just need a push, am concerned the orchestral parts may not be up to her high standards
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gg4-puczL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
BulldogYou were right on target, this is an absolutely delightful concerto set using forte piano an 1815 Dulcken replica.
Balance is ideal with keyboard given proper scale and weight unlike the poor balance of Bilson/Archiv, very detailed presentation with realistic 3D soundstage, sounds just like a trip back in time to hear Mozart perform live. Schornsheim plays with great panache and effortless style, her cadenza work is of the highest standard
All is not perfect of course, I felt the concerto 25 to be too relaxed and would benefit from faster orchestral tempos, the other 3 sound fine especially 1st CD with concertos 17 & 18. The best Mozart forte piano concertos I have heard remain the handful done Andreas Staier, but do not hesitate to get the Shornsheim performances especially if you are HIP :)
I originally posted this over in the HIP Mozart thread, but Dark Angel has asked me to copy it over to this thread; and since it does indeed follow on from the discussion a few posts back (see #164 above), and since it's arisen partly as a result of his recommendation and LapsangS's (#155), that doesn't seem like a bad idea. So here it is again, with apologies to anyone who's already read it.
I'd like to make a preliminary report on my Great Mozart Piano Concerto Experiment.
The story so far: First, after lengthy anguishing, I bought the horrendously expensive box of HIP concertos with Viviana Sofronitzki on fortepiano, conducted by Tadeusz Karolak:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/4012476841519.jpg)
I listened to quite a lot of the discs - some several times over, and found myself more and more charmed, enchanted, excited, enticed, beguiled by them. This was a huge breakthrough - I've never been fond of the piano, never much enjoyed piano concertos, never cared tuppence for Mozart's in particular; yet here I was, unexpectedly listening over and over and wanting to listen to nothing else. And I started to ask - does the HIP performance really make all this difference? The difference between light and dark? Between Yes and No? I wanted a non-HIP set for comparison, to see how much change had been going on in me, rather than in the type of performance I was listening to.
jpc were selling the Annerose Schmidt/Kurt Masur box for a merely nominal sum, so I sent for one. Shortly afterwards Navneeth pointed out that they were selling the Brendel/Marriner set for not much more, so, fearing the Schmidt/Masur might be rather mediocre, I took the plunge and sent for that as well. They've both arrived:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0782124024628.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0028948025992.jpg)
I've made a first tentative start to the experiment by listening to the 25th (K503), first by Sofronizki, second by Schmidt, third by Brendel. The result - I'm really quite stunned.
I think the Sofronitzki is terrific - vital, rippling playing from the fortepiano, sharp orchestral playing, lovely crunchy HIP sounds - just the thing that's been wowing me for the last couple of weeks. A winner all the way. So when I put the Schmidt/Masur into the player I expected to be crushingly disappointed.
Well, it sure isn't HIP. And of course the piano sound is so much rounder and smoother and more mellow than the fortepiano. But I was shocked by how much I was being swept along by the music. The orchestral playing is incisive, decisive, urgent, and convincing. Schmidt plays with conviction and vitality. I reached the end amazed and delighted that I seemed to have found a completely different way of enjoying the piano concertos. So then I put on the Brendel and expected to be sent into spasms of ecstasy.
Well... I was surprised to find it was a live recording, so the playing field is certainly not level - but oh, oh, oh, this is everything I used to think Mozart was. The orchestral sound is big, cloudy, imprecise. Brendel plays with astounding skill - so much so that it's impossible to figure how he melds one note into another in the way he does. But where's the humour - the delight, the thrill of discovery, the sharp transitions from heart-stopping beauty to pensive contemplation, to delight, and then back again? This sounds like the kind of Mozart my Mum and Dad would have listened to, if they'd liked Mozart. Smoothed-out Mozart; smeared out Mozart. Mozart to doze by.
You know the first few minutes of the third movement? The best test I could think of was the degree to which I find myself smiling as that jaunty, cheeky tune is first introduced by the orchestra, then followed by the rippling piano. With Sofronitzki I'm smiling in little fits and starts; with Schmidt, amazingly, I'm smiling non-stop, except for a bar or two where she discovers a reason for sober contemplation, then off we go again. But with Brendel, oh dear, I don't smile at all. I'm full of admiration for the meltingly gorgeous skill, but where's the feeling?
So at the close of round 1, I'm deeply puzzled. My prime allegiance is still to the HIP Sofronitzki. She's early Elvis, at Sun records, rockin' and rollin'. The real thing. But my goodness, there's something to be said for Schmidt and Mazur, who really seem to know where they're going. They're like later Elvis, more polished but emphatic and powerful - yet importantly, pre-Army. Brendel and Marriner seem like post-army Elvis - the sanitised, Elvis-made-safe, suitable for family listening.
In short - this has proved to be a fascinating exercise. When, after some years' time, I've worked my way through all of these concertos in triplicate like this, maybe I shall understand this HIP-business a little better?
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 05:58:27 AMI stumbled upon it by chance while browsing through jpc's special offers, looking for a cheap box set of non-HIP Mozart concertos. When I saw the price (still available for 14.99 euros last time I looked)
I see jpc.de is offering Buchbinder's set for €45. A nice alternative, though I still prefer Schiff's set, and the Goode/Orpheus recordings of the later PCs. Wish Pires/Abbado had recorded more of them. And among my guilty pleasures are Ashkenazy's lush, romantic recordings.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 11, 2010, 06:27:00 AM
And among my guilty pleasures are Ashkenazy's lush, romantic recordings.
No one outdoes Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic for lush, romantic, except perhaps Barbirolli/Schnabel
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124024628.jpg)
I think Elgarian has really made a great find with the Annerose Schmidt set, great price at JPC with complete short samples. In some ways reminds me of the Geza Anda set with fleet tempos that sparkle with imagination and wit, Masur has never sounded this good to me, puts a smile on my face I am a buyer..........
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-21-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/6348294 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-21-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/6348294)
Is anyone familiar with Paul Badura-Skoda recording of about half a dozen concertos with Prague Chamber Orchestra on Transart? Saw them in a local shop and wondering if it's worth picking up. Think it's available both as three separate discs and boxed.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GTc1PymyL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 11, 2010, 06:27:00 AM
among my guilty pleasures are Ashkenazy's lush, romantic recordings.
'Lush' and 'romantic' are the kind of words I might use to describe the Brendel/Marriner interpretations, along with 'silky', 'liquid' and 'smooth' - but this is such new territory for me that I'm aware that even the words 'lush' and 'romantic' probably encompass a whole spread of different nuances that I haven't experienced yet.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 06:59:57 AM
'Lush' and 'romantic' are the kind of words I might use to describe the Brendel/Marriner interpretations, along with 'silky', 'liquid' and 'smooth' - but this is such new territory for me that I'm aware that even the words 'lush' and 'romantic' probably encompass a whole spread of different nuances that I haven't experienced yet.
Marriner (not Brendel) I would describe as flaccid, not lush. Barenboim/Berlin has a fair bit of rubato and other liberties that are perhaps anachronistic, but can be satisfying. You would not believe the liberties Schnabel's recordings take with tempo.
What keeps me from getting the Sofronitzki set is the following review:
http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Mozart_KeyboardConcertos_Sofronitzki_Huss.html
Comments?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ACDT4P8TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Wish there was some way to collect these Levin/Lyre concertos using a replica Anton walter fortepiano without breaking the bank, Hogwood/AAM provide great orchestral support and Levin uses his own cadenzas, this will keep you spellbound.......if this were complete set it would rise to the top of available fortepiano sets, inspired work
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 11, 2010, 07:36:19 AM
What keeps me from getting the Sofronitzki set is the following review:
http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Mozart_KeyboardConcertos_Sofronitzki_Huss.html (http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Mozart_KeyboardConcertos_Sofronitzki_Huss.html)
Comments?
Don't agree with his impressions, if this is a dull set we are listening to two different sets............I have Bilson and Immerseel sets and the Sofronitzki is much better overall for me.
In the end you need to sample on your own and come to your own conclusions instead of going by what "experts" tell you is best for you ;)
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 11, 2010, 07:52:50 AM
Don't agree with his impressions, if this is a dull set we are listening to two different sets............I have Bilson and Immerseel sets and the Sofronitzki is much better overall for me.
In the end you need to sample on your own and come to your own conclusions instead of going by what "experts" tell you is best for you ;)
Ultimately, yes, but I respect Johan van Veen, especially his reviews of Bach recordings. Although this review doesn't strike me as particularly expert, here he does make pretty specific criticisms about the flexibility of the orchestra and soloist, which warrants investigating.
To make a further point, some people are just plain more knowledgeable and experienced about certain topics, like the improvisation of cadenzas.
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 11, 2010, 08:18:45 AM
Ultimately, yes, but I respect Johan van Veen, especially his reviews of Bach recordings. Although this review doesn't strike me as particularly expert, here he does make pretty specific criticisms about the flexibility of the orchestra and soloist, which warrants investigating.
To make a further point, some people are just plain more knowledgeable and experienced about certain topics, like the improvisation of cadenzas.
He is undoubtedly knowledgeable about what style he prefers, but I suspect Viviana Sofronitzsky is even more knowledgeable about Mozart, if she wished she has the skill to play exactly what Johan van Veen wants to hear, but she is playing things the way she thinks is best by her own choice.......so again each person must listen and make thier own decisions about what they prefer
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 06:59:57 AM
'Lush' and 'romantic' are the kind of words I might use to describe the Brendel/Marriner interpretations, along with 'silky', 'liquid' and 'smooth' - but this is such new territory for me that I'm aware that even the words 'lush' and 'romantic' probably encompass a whole spread of different nuances that I haven't experienced yet.
I think anything in the classical repertoire by Paul Badura-Skoda is worth picking up.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 11, 2010, 08:30:45 AM
He is undoubtedly knowledgeable about what style he prefers, but I suspect Viviana Sofronitzsky is even more knowledgeable and is playing things the way she thinks is best.......so again each person must listen and make thier own decisions about what they prefer for thier own listening
Ha, yes, you are probably right. She has quite an education. Nevertheless, I'm still looking for a review of this recording by someone who has a similar education.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 11, 2010, 08:30:45 AM
He is undoubtedly knowledgeable about what style he prefers, but I suspect Viviana Sofronitzsky is even more knowledgeable about Mozart, if she wished she has the skill to play exactly what Johan van Veen wants to hear, but she is playing things the way she thinks is best by her own choice.......so again each person must listen and make thier own decisions about what they prefer
Since you mentioned it in an earlier post, I thought it worth remarking that one of his specific criticisms was concerning the use of an replica Anton Walter fortepiano which he thought not historically accurate for Mozart.
Quote from: Franco on February 11, 2010, 08:58:40 AM
Since you mentioned it in an earlier post, I thought it worth remarking that one of his specific criticisms was concerning the use of an replica Anton Walter fortepiano which he thought not historically accurate for Mozart.
In addition to having his own review site, Johan does reviews for MusicWeb International. He's quite the stickler for historically accurate performances, although his musical preferences are just as subjective as the next person's.
Johan obviously feels that the performances are lacking depth and nuance; I'd pay some attention to his comments, but he's still just one reviewer among many.
Quote from: Franco on February 11, 2010, 08:58:40 AM
Since you mentioned it in an earlier post, I thought it worth remarking that one of his specific criticisms was concerning the use of an replica Anton Walter fortepiano which he thought not historically accurate for Mozart.
Nothing I would be concerned about..........most fortepiano recordings use later Anton Walter because it sounds so fine. I have a Lubimov boxset of Mozart sonatas and he uses 3 different fortepianos progressing in time ending with the Walter, sounds so much better when he switches to the Anton Walter replica, who really cares what is historically accurate?
Myth of expert reviewers.......they lead you to believe that there is a correct or ideal way to play works (which happens to be thier way) when in reality a complex and imaginative set like Mozart piano concertos can be expressed in many equally valid different styles, the listener only need find what pleases them most
Quotewho really cares what is historically accurate?
:D
I recently picked up Uchida's recording with the Cleveland Orchestra. I was hoping she'd show some growth as an artist, ala Brendel's recent recordings with Mackerras.
The orchestral portion is FAR better than when she did her cycle with Tate. But, alas, her playing is just as demure and overly-pretty now as it was back then. Too bad, and I won't be picking up any more releases if they happen to come out.
On the other hand, the recent recording by Bliss with the Orpheus Chamber orchestra is a beautiful small scale reading with a great piano part and excellent winds and interplay.
Quote from: Tyson on February 11, 2010, 11:59:30 AM
On the other hand, the recent recording by Bliss with the Orpheus Chamber orchestra is a beautiful small scale reading with a great piano part and excellent winds and interplay.
Looks like only 1CD currently out.......
Reminds me to pull out the old
Goode/Orpheus CO CDs and give them another listen, has been a while
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XMFWGVJYL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SJXY3EMML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 11, 2010, 07:36:19 AM
What keeps me from getting the Sofronitzki set is the following review:
http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Mozart_KeyboardConcertos_Sofronitzki_Huss.html
Comments?
Please bear in mind that all my comments are those of the tyro, and that my
knowledge about how these concertos should be played is zero. But when this reviewer describes these performances as dull and one-dimensional, I wonder, like DA, whether we can possibly be talking about the same music. (Actually, those are words I might use to describe the Brendel/Marriner recordings I've been using in my comparisons). I said it in my post but I'll emphasise it again here: for me, Sofronitzki's performances of these concertos have swept aside
decades of indifference to Mozart's piano concertos, and left me gasping with enthusiasm and wanting more, more, more. I find them full of thrilling little vivaciousnesses, the equivalents of little winks and nods of understanding, and a wide range of feeling, from the forceful to the delicate. I'm not saying that at some time in the future I won't find performances that are better; but right here and now these have been, and are, of enormous value to me. I don't think this means that the reviewer is necessarily
wrong (surely there aren't any absolutes in all this, and an opinion is after all only an opinion); but his approach to the music is so different to mine that his comments aren't helpful to me - even though they might be to others.
My reluctance to take this reviewer's comments too seriously is compounded by this absurd advice: 'The acoustics are too dry and the recording volume too high. If you purchase this set you are well advised to turn down the volume of your playing equipment.' (Well my goodness, that's pretty damning, don't you think? Heaven forbid that I should have to adjust my amplifier's volume control.)
If a reviewer doesn't seem to know what the volume control on his amp is
for, then I'm not inclined to be much influenced by his other opinions.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 01:14:57 PM
Please bear in mind that all my comments are those of the tyro, and that my knowledge about how these concertos should be played is zero. But when this reviewer describes these performances as dull and one-dimensional, I wonder, like DA, whether we can possibly be talking about the same music. (Actually, those are words I might use to describe the Brendel/Marriner recordings I've been using in my comparisons). I said it in my post but I'll emphasise it again here: for me, Sofronitzki's performances of these concertos have swept aside decades of indifference to Mozart's piano concertos, and left me gasping with enthusiasm and wanting more, more, more. I find them full of thrilling little vivaciousnesses, the equivalents of little winks and nods of understanding, and a wide range of feeling, from the forceful to the delicate. I'm not saying that at some time in the future I won't find performances that are better; but right here and now these have been, and are, of enormous value to me.
My reluctance to take this reviewer's comments too seriously is compounded by this absurd advice: 'The acoustics are too dry and the recording volume too high. If you purchase this set you are well advised to turn down the volume of your playing equipment.' (Well my goodness, that's pretty damning, don't you think? Heaven forbid that I should have to adjust my amplifier's volume control.)
If a reviewer doesn't seem to know what the volume control on his amp is for, then I'm not inclined to be much influenced by his other opinions.
I don't see anything wrong with a reviewer advising readers that the recorded volume is higher than on most other recordings.
Johan offered his honest assessment of the Sofronitzki set. That the assessment contrasts with the opinions of some on this board and perhaps with the majority of other reviewers does not indicate that Johan doesn't know what he's talking about. His is simply a "minority" view that I'm sure a few other souls on Planet Earth would agree with. FWIW, I've not heard a note of the set nor do I generally agree with Johan's opinions.
I just wanted to say that Johan van Veen is a serious critic that knows HIP better than most, his reviews should be taken seriously. BUT his specialty is the baroque era. Just something to think about it.
Personally I liked that he mentioned the problem with volume. If the volume is a little bit higher, listeners do tend to think it sounds better. It's pretty well known. It would be funny if people were enthusiastic more from being duped by a cheap trick that has been widely embraced by pop music decades ago.
I'm not going to look into it, Elgarian's review turns me off more than Johan van Veen's review does. If Elgarian hates Mozart until he hears this recording out of many, I don't jump to the conclusion that it's revelatory. I think it more likely that it's just quirky, unorthodox and just strange so that it doesn't sound like Mozart, and that's why he likes it. If someone who really loves Mozart says to check it out... then maybe. But I've already heard fine HIP recordings and I don't need an overpriced no name performer to add to the collection just for the sake of quirkiness.
Quote from: Bulldog on February 11, 2010, 01:33:56 PM
I don't see anything wrong with a reviewer advising readers that the recorded volume is higher than on most other recordings.
Not wrong - just... unnecessary. Perhaps I underestimate the dangers of volume control adjustment.
QuoteJohan offered his honest assessment of the Sofronitzki set. That the assessment contrasts with the opinions of some on this board and perhaps with the majority of other reviewers does not indicate that Johan doesn't know what he's talking about.
I agree completely. I added a bit to my original post while you were replying to it, because I felt I was being unnecessarily forceful about it. It's not a matter of wrongs and rights - just a matter of horses for courses.
Quote from: DavidW on February 11, 2010, 01:36:54 PM
Elgarian's review turns me off more than Johan van Veen's review does.
I'm not trying to convert anyone, David. I'm just enjoying writing about my new enthusiasm.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 01:39:04 PM
Not wrong - just... unnecessary. Perhaps I underestimate the dangers of volume control adjustment.
Sometimes a reviewer just can't win. If Johan had not mentioned the volume issue, some folks might have been irked when they started playing the set. Ultimately, the reviewer has to write what he/she wants to say and leave it at that.
I looked at a few other reviews. MusicWeb loved it, one Fanfare reviewer had mixed feelings, another Fanfare reviewer thought it wonderful, and Mr. Distler over at ClassicsToday found it greatly flawed.
This has all made me very interested in the set; that the keyboardist is the daughter of one of my all-time favorite pianists just ups the enticement. However, I don't generally want to acquire box sets, so I don't know at this point how I will proceed.
Quote from: Bulldog on February 11, 2010, 01:54:05 PM
Sometimes a reviewer just can't win. If Johan had not mentioned the volume issue, some folks might have been irked when they started playing the set. Ultimately, the reviewer has to write what he/she wants to say and leave it at that.
I looked at a few other reviews. MusicWeb loved it, one Fanfare reviewer had mixed feelings, another Fanfare reviewer thought it wonderful, and Mr. Distler over at ClassicsToday found it greatly flawed.
This has all made me very interested in the set; that the keyboardist is the daughter of one of my all-time favorite pianists just ups the enticement. However, I don't generally want to acquire box sets, so I don't know at this point how I will proceed.
The sound for Sofronitzsky gave me no problems at all, clear and finely detailed with very three dimensional soundstage, loudness was nothing unusual perhpas instead of 11 o'clock I listen at 10 o'clock volume.........and I have a very high end stereo ($10,000+) and headphone system, expert reviewer for some reason was bothered by it, very strange to make a big deal about it because I don't hear the problem
Just to show how different taste can be Jed Distiller at Classicstoday did not like Sofronitsky and says best he has heard is the Bilson......I find the Bilson to be somewhat ordinary and distant opaquely recorded fortepiano, my least favorite fortepiano version (despite excellent orchestral work by Gardiner)
Quote from: DavidW on February 11, 2010, 01:36:54 PM
I'm not going to look into it, Elgarian's review turns me off more than Johan van Veen's review does. If Elgarian hates Mozart until he hears this recording out of many, I don't jump to the conclusion that it's revelatory. I think it more likely that it's just quirky, unorthodox and just strange so that it doesn't sound like Mozart, and that's why he likes it. If someone who really loves Mozart says to check it out... then maybe. But I've already heard fine HIP recordings and I don't need an overpriced no name performer to add to the collection just for the sake of quirkiness.
Don't like those no-name performers? Some of my favorite recordings come from the no-name category; conversely, I've thrown out many recordings from big-name artists. Also, she has a name - Sofronitsky, and it's a time-honored name in the keyboard performance category.
Quote from: Bulldog on February 11, 2010, 03:05:48 PM
Don't like those no-name performers? Some of my favorite recordings come from the no-name category; conversely, I've thrown out many recordings from big-name artists. Also, she has a name - Sofronitsky, and it's a time-honored name in the keyboard performance category.
But she hasn't made that name for herself. You can say well it's in the blood, but I would say maybe, maybe not. Yes I shouldn't have said "no name", that's what happens I when I use a cliche expression instead of expressing myself plainly. You've caught me there.
But I'll tell you what Bulldog-- if you listen to those recordings as you said you might, and you give it an enthusiastic endorsement then I will put my money down for one volume. I will give it a try. Not the whole box set, but one cd for sure.
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 11, 2010, 07:36:19 AM
What keeps me from getting the Sofronitzki set is the following review:
http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Mozart_KeyboardConcertos_Sofronitzki_Huss.html
Comments?
Regardless of the reviewer's expertise, I can't take this seriously:
Regarding the expanded forces for the early transcribed sonatas, he says "This isn't chamber music anymore, and the result is pretty disastrous." You'd expect some sort of explication after this, but all you get is "the balance between the keyboard and the orchestra is highly unsatisfactory." Unsatisfactory how? He doesn't say.
He also complains about "little differentiation between the notes and too few dynamic shades. Any use of agogical means to create a captivating and rhetorically convincing musical discourse are virtually absent." It sound to me like he wants that overstated, self-conscious "expressive" rubato that I can't stand, but which some take as an indicator of quality. I'm not against rubato, but I think it should sound like a natural expression of the music, not a pose enforced by the musician.
His complaint that "the recording volume [is] too high" is silly. A higher mastering level is something to note, but not to condemn.
Quote from: Tyson on February 11, 2010, 11:59:30 AMThe orchestral portion is FAR better than when she did her cycle with Tate. But, alas, her playing is just as demure and overly-pretty now as it was back then. Too bad, and I won't be picking up any more releases if they happen to come out.
The sample on the recent Gramophone disc was actually the first I'd heard of Uchida's Mozart, and I was unimpressed. I don't think the dull, reticent sound helped any.
Quote from: DavidW on February 11, 2010, 03:27:34 PM
But I'll tell you what Bulldog-- if you listen to those recordings as you said you might, and you give it an enthusiastic endorsement then I will put my money down for one volume. I will give it a try. Not the whole box set, but one cd for sure.
The problem is the high cost of the set - about $90. I have Anda, Schiff, Perahia, Barenboim, Bilson, Levin etc. Will I get $90 of value out of another set? If it's a great set, it's worth much more than the sales price. If not, I've wasted my money except for informational purposes. A tough decision that I'll wait on.
Quote from: DavidW on February 11, 2010, 01:36:54 PM
If Elgarian hates Mozart until he hears this recording out of many, I don't jump to the conclusion that it's revelatory.
Just a gentle corrective, if I may - I've never hated Mozart, though until relatively recently I've been more or less indifferent. I'm delighted to say that that general situation has changed quite rapidly, not because of one quirky set of piano concertos, but because of a whole series of (mostly HIP) discoveries right across the board, nearly all of which have been revelatory (to me). I actually now probably possess more Mozart CDs than Elgar CDs, and they're even catching up on my collection of Bob Dylan bootlegs. I am a thoroughly converted man.
Quote from: Bulldog on February 11, 2010, 01:54:05 PM
Sometimes a reviewer just can't win. If Johan had not mentioned the volume issue, some folks might have been irked when they started playing the set. Ultimately, the reviewer has to write what he/she wants to say and leave it at that.
Yes of course, and I made too big a deal out of it. I think I was thrown by the fact that he seemed to be presenting it as a negative observation, whereas actually it's just an observation.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 08:57:32 PM
Yes of course, and I made too big a deal out of it. I think I was thrown by the fact that he seemed to be presenting it as a negative observation, whereas actually it's just an observation.
He did present it as negative. Johan's likely has some optimal volume setting, and it's thumbs down for any recording that isn't on target. :D
Quote from: Bulldog on February 11, 2010, 09:16:08 PM
He did present it as negative. Johan's likely has some optimal volume setting, and it's thumbs down for any recording that isn't on target. :D
I suppose he would regard me as a shockingly self-indulgent volume-control twiddler. (I've tried to give it up, but you know how it is....)
You'll go blind!
In case it hasn't been noted,
Brautigam is recording the complete piano concertos for BIS with Die Kölner Akademie. Recording was to have started in November.
http://www.koelnerakademie.com/index.php?id=3&L=1
QuoteIn case it hasn't been noted,
Brautigam is recording the complete piano concertos for BIS with Die Kölner Akademie. Recording was to have started in November.
http://www.koelnerakademie.com/index.php?id=3&L=1 (http://www.koelnerakademie.com/index.php?id=3&L=1)
Great news..........Look like eventually we will have Brautigam fortepiano sonatas/concertos trifecta:
Haydn > Mozart > Beethoven
It will be hard to resist buying as each CD is released during the recording process, but I will do my best to wait for eventual reduced price BIS boxset.....even if that takes a long time (I failed in the Beethoven sonatas and have been buying each full price CD)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ej4uzvCsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512JBRX4SNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 12, 2010, 03:58:50 AM
Great news..........
Look like eventually we will have Brautigam fortepiano sonatas/concertos trifecta:
Haydn > Mozart > Beethoven
It will be hard to resist buying as each CD is released during the recording process, but I will do my best to wait for eventual reduced price BIS boxset.....even if that takes a long time (I failed in the Beethoven sonatas and have been buying each full price CD)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ej4uzvCsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512JBRX4SNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
The Mozart has been a box set for quite some time, albeit in different packaging. I have had these for years! and it was given the 10/10 in December of 2000. The Haydn was a new box set release, and the Beethoven cycle is still ongoing, so I'm a little confused as to what you are referring to! Btw, there are not many Beethoven discs left for release: only one or two for the sonatas (might include some of the other solo music) and perhaps one more for the other solo piano music.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FM0%2BlXYWL.jpg) (http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/10/1253210.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on February 12, 2010, 06:28:12 AM
The Mozart has been a box set for quite some time, albeit in different packaging. I have had these for years! and it was given the 10/10 in December of 2000.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FM0%2BlXYWL.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21996JHG7FL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
That's the one I have and it is a very good set no matter how it is packaged.
Quote from: Bunny on February 12, 2010, 06:28:12 AM
The Mozart has been a box set for quite some time, albeit in different packaging. I have had these for years! and it was given the 10/10 in December of 2000. The Haydn was a new box set release, and the Beethoven cycle is still ongoing, so I'm a little confused as to what you are referring to! Btw, there are not many Beethoven discs left for release: only one or two for the sonatas (might include some of the other solo music) and perhaps one more for the other solo piano music.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FM0%2BlXYWL.jpg) (http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/10/1253210.jpg)
Bunny was referring to post directly above mine saying Brautigam will begin to record complete
Mozart piano concertos (in addition to existing sonatas boxset) and I will "try" to wait for eventual reduced price boxset before purchase
Yes, DA, I understand - but I prefer the Mozart PC using modern piano (the orchestra seems to dwarf the fp, and there are other reasons) - but I do like solo fortepiano recordings, and was commenting on the older packaging of the Brautigam Mozart sonatas.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 12, 2010, 06:49:28 AM
Bunny was referring to post directly above mine saying Brautigam will begin to record complete Mozart piano concertos (in addition to existing sonatas boxset) and I will "try" to wait for eventual reduced price boxset before purchase
Ah! That post was on a different "page" on this computer so I didn't see it. Brautigam doing the concertos? I wonder if I will be able to wait for the box set, especially if the reviews are very enthusiastic.
Have just looked at the link originally posted by Clever Hans. Questions about this concerto cycle abound! Will they use modern instruments or period instruments is the big one. Brautigam's Beethoven concertos were recorded on modern instruments for Bis, a choice I was perplexed by. I suppose that with the Mozart now in the works, the rest of the Beethoven concertos cycle may be waiting for release.
Quote from: Bunny on February 12, 2010, 07:21:44 AM
Have just looked at the link originally posted by Clever Hans. Questions about this concerto cycle abound! Will they use modern instruments or period instruments is the big one. Brautigam's Beethoven concertos were recorded on modern instruments for Bis, a choice I was perplexed by. I suppose that with the Mozart now in the works, the rest of the Beethoven concertos cycle may be waiting for release.
On this youtube post, in the comments section, the author claims to have received an email reply from Brautigam himself indicating that it will be with period instruments. Considering the rest of the information is accurate, I doubt he's making it up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9_Wqa3oEdg
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 12, 2010, 10:12:15 AM
On this youtube post, in the comments section, the author claims to have received an email reply from Brautigam himself indicating that it will be with period instruments. Considering the rest of the information is accurate, I doubt he's making it up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9_Wqa3oEdg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9_Wqa3oEdg)
Be shocked if it wasn't fortepiano version, here is a youtube showing Brautigam playing
Mozart piano concerto 20 using fortepiano.......a taste of things to come! Wonderful short cadenza work at 5:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related)
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 12, 2010, 10:28:55 AM
Be shocked if it wasn't fortepiano version, here is a youtube showing Brautigam playing Mozart piano concerto 20 using fortepiano.......a taste of things to come! Wonderful short cadenza work at 5:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related)
I find it interesting that he is centrally placed, almost within the orchestra. I'm sure if I dig through Gurn's Classical thread, I'll find a mention somewhere that this was how concerti were performed in the 18th century. :)
Quote from: Opus106 on February 12, 2010, 10:34:10 AM
I find it interesting that he is centrally placed, almost within the orchestra. I'm sure if I dig through Gurn's Classical thread, I'll find a mention somewhere that this was how concerti were performed in the 18th century. :)
I really enjoyed it. Very nice performance.
Quote from: George on February 12, 2010, 10:37:52 AM
I really enjoyed it. Very nice performance.
Ditto. And as DA mentioned, it was wonderful and short cadenza. What I want hear is the cadenza for the first movt., where for me Beethoven's is the favourite. (Strange me.)
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 12, 2010, 10:28:55 AM
Be shocked if it wasn't fortepiano version, here is a youtube showing Brautigam playing Mozart piano concerto 20 using fortepiano.......a taste of things to come! Wonderful short cadenza work at 5:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related)
Very nice. I usually prefer modern piano in the Mozart PC but this instrument sounds great, and I do like his interpretative choices. I may get some individual disks of these. But I wish he'd get a haircut.
Add me to the list of "that was awesome!" Very colorful playing from Brautigam... does he ever disappoint? :)
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 12, 2010, 10:12:15 AM
On this youtube post, in the comments section, the author claims to have received an email reply from Brautigam himself indicating that it will be with period instruments. Considering the rest of the information is accurate, I doubt he's making it up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9_Wqa3oEdg
Excellent! Hope I can wait for the box set too, but it's going to be hard. :-*
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 12, 2010, 10:28:55 AM
Be shocked if it wasn't fortepiano version, here is a youtube showing Brautigam playing Mozart piano concerto 20 using fortepiano.......a taste of things to come! Wonderful short cadenza work at 5:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related)
God, it must be so much fun to be able to do that.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 12, 2010, 10:28:55 AM
here is a youtube showing Brautigam playing Mozart piano concerto 20 using fortepiano.......a taste of things to come! Wonderful short cadenza work at 5:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related)
My goodness. Now
that is the Real Thing, and no mistake. Breathtaking. Bursting with life. I have the box of Brautigam's Mozart sonatas lying nearby (as yet unopened), and I can see I'm in for an interesting time!
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 11, 2010, 06:37:00 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124024628.jpg)
I think Elgarian has really made a great find with the Annerose Schmidt set, great price at JPC with complete short samples. In some ways reminds me of the Geza Anda set with fleet tempos that sparkle with imagination and wit, Masur has never sounded this good to me, puts a smile on my face I am a buyer..........
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-21-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/6348294 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-21-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/6348294)
Please report back when you have listened to the set. I listened to a couple of samples and didn't think it was really competitive.
Quote from: Opus106 on February 12, 2010, 10:34:10 AM
I find it interesting that he is centrally placed, almost within the orchestra. I'm sure if I dig through Gurn's Classical thread, I'll find a mention somewhere that this was how concerti were performed in the 18th century. :)
I don't know the answer but Barenboim's performances with a downsized Berlin Phil also has the piano within the orchestra. Here's the last movement of the 22nd, K.482:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHDSY0QLXgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNKkP2ruP9w
Sarge
Although I heard much to admire in the Brautigam clip, the pianoforte's sound and lack of power make it unsatisfactory as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise I love the sound of period instruments and tend to prefer HIP performances on period instruments...but not when it comes to piano--solo, chamber, or especially in piano concertos. The modern piano may be the instrument best able to hold its own against an orchestra. The pianoforte is overwhelmed, even with an appropriately proportioned orchestra such as the one in the clip above.
Note--I'm not saying others must share my preferences, that there's only one "right" way to hear or think about such things, but only offering another point of view for this community's consideration.
And...does anyone else enjoy the irony that much of this thread focuses on period or HIP recordings, whereas the HIP thread seems to be discussing big-band concerto performances? ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 07:19:56 AM
the pianoforte's sound and lack of power make it unsatisfactory as far as I'm concerned.
I think I understand exactly how anyone could feel that, who finds the actual physical sound character of the modern piano enjoyable. But I've always struggled somewhat with the sound of a piano (I think this is partly physiological in origin, not musical), and so stumbling across the fortepiano, which seems somehow to deliver all the things I like about a piano and none of the things I don't - well, that's a bonus not to be sniffed at, because it means that vast swathes of material that I've ignored have suddenly become accessible. So I think my attraction to fortepiano works is a bit more complicated than just an attraction to things HIP. On the other hand, now I'm listening to a lot of fortepiano, I'm finding that my tolerance of modern piano is improving (eg the Schmidt/Masur concertos), so there seems to be some sort of learning process going on which I don't claim to understand, but it sure is exciting.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 07:19:56 AM
Although I heard much to admire in the Brautigam clip, the pianoforte's sound and lack of power make it unsatisfactory as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise I love the sound of period instruments and tend to prefer HIP performances on period instruments...but not when it comes to piano--solo, chamber, or especially in piano concertos. The modern piano may be the instrument best able to hold its own against an orchestra. The pianoforte is overwhelmed, even with an appropriately proportioned orchestra such as the one in the clip above.
Note--I'm not saying others must share my preferences, that there's only one "right" way to hear or think about such things, but only offering another point of view for this community's consideration.
And...does anyone else enjoy the irony that much of this thread focuses on period or HIP recordings, whereas the HIP thread seems to be discussing big-band concerto performances? ;)
I generally agree with you and have not enjoyed the sound of the fortepiano except in a few recordings and those of either small ensembles or solo. This clip has been the only one of a PC using a fp that I found did not exhibit the dwarfing effect as badly as most of the others, in varying degrees (the worst in this regard has been a Jorg Demus Haydn Concerto recording that was absolutely horrible). I have the Immerseel PCs and find them okay but not nearly as enjoyable, from a sound perspective, as any of my other sets using a piano. However, the sound on this clip was much better than anything I've heard before and I probably will sample one or two of the disks as they come out.
I am not doctrinaire in either direction and am always interested in hearing new recordings of the works I consider the core canon, i.e. Beethoven Symphonies, Mozart PC, Haydn String Quartets - among many others.
Nowhere near a complete set, but the recordings from this series are mind-blowing, IMO.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WcKb1aAGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2010, 08:08:28 AM
Nowhere near a complete set, but the recordings from this series are mind-blowing, IMO.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WcKb1aAGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Indeed! :) As I've mentioned before, Staier should be tied to a chair until he has recorded all Mozart concertos, and while he's at it he might as well do the entire Schubert solo works as well. 8) But I'm afraid, no such luck sofar. :-\
BTW that recording is probably hard to get or overpriced, but availble with its companion Mozart PC disc in this set:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646989010.jpg)
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 07:19:56 AM
And...does anyone else enjoy the irony that much of this thread focuses on period or HIP recordings, whereas the HIP thread seems to be discussing big-band concerto performances? ;)
The fact that period performances are now more generally accepted and judged on their own musical merits as any other performance is much cause for satisfaction, absolutely. :) In the last two years or so, things have fortunately changed a lot in that respect. No irony in that. 8)
Q
Quote from: Que on February 14, 2010, 12:58:14 PM
Indeed! :) As I've mentioned before, Staier should be tied to a chair until he has recorded all Mozart concertos, and while he's at it he might as well do the entire Schubert solo works as well. 8)
Sounds like it'd make a cool reality series. 8)
While we have Staier tied to that chair, I'd love to know which ensemble he will record those concerti with. His most recent Mozart concerto recording with the Freiburger Barockorchester has been given very mixed reviews. I know that many critics have their own agenda which does color their reviews, so I would love to know how it sounds from someone here who has heard it. I have been considering this recording for a while but can't make up my mind as to whether or not to pull the trigger.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61llfK50M0L._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on February 14, 2010, 03:00:38 PM
While we have Staier tied to that chair, I'd love to know which ensemble he will record those concerti with. His most recent Mozart concerto recording with the Freiburger Barockorchester has been given very mixed reviews. I know that many critics have their own agenda which does color their reviews, so I would love to know how it sounds from someone here who has heard it. I have been considering this recording for a while but can't make up my mind as to whether or not to pull the trigger.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61llfK50M0L._SS500_.jpg)
For the earlier Staier recordings I'd say the Concerto Koln was the deciding factor in its quality. I'm not so interested in hearing him with a different ensemble.
Quote from: Herman on February 14, 2010, 01:46:28 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124024628.jpg)
I listened to a couple of samples and didn't think it was really competitive.
Interesting choice of word. It's worth bearing in mind the context in which I chose to buy this Schmidt/Masur set: I wanted a cheap non-HIP set to compare with my first choice of the HIP Sofronitzki set. It cost 14.99 euros for 10 CDs (and is still available at jpc for that price), and I fancy I'd struggle to find anything as good, for so little outlay. In hindsight I'm quite thrilled by how much I'm enjoying it - in comparison with the Brendel/Marriner set which cost substantially more, but whose exaggerated romanticism is increasingly persuading me that I've probably wasted my money.
This is still one of the best sets available IMO. I have owned this set for about a year now. Unlike Bach's works, I have no problems with Mozart's PC's being somewhat romanticized. Isn't PC21 one of the most romantic pieces ever composed?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 15, 2010, 05:49:07 AM
This is still one of the best sets available IMO.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
As far as non-HIP complete sets are concerned (for incompletes: who could beat Casadesus/Szell or Moravec?), you took the words right out of my mouth! :)
Q
Quote from: Que on February 15, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
As far as non-HIP complete sets are concerned (for incompletes: who could beat Casadesus/Szell or Moravec?), you took the words right out of my mouth! :)
Q
While I have the Mozart Symphonies sets by both Hogwood and Pinnock, the two leading contenders for HIP performance, I am still undecided as to whether HIP performance is all that important when it comes to Mozart's works. For Bach's works, the answer is invariably yes ...
Quote from: Que on February 15, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
As far as non-HIP complete sets are concerned (for incompletes: who could beat Casadesus/Szell or Moravec?), you took the words right out of my mouth! :)
Q
Indeed! I'll be forever grateful to the kind gentleman who passed that set onto me. :)
Quote from: George on February 15, 2010, 07:43:15 AM
Indeed! I'll be forever grateful to the kind gentleman who passed that set onto me. :)
Yes, the C/S #26 is awesome.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 15, 2010, 05:49:07 AM
This is still one of the best sets available IMO. I have owned this set for about a year now. Unlike Bach's works, I have no problems with Mozart's PC's being somewhat romanticized. Isn't PC21 one of the most romantic pieces ever composed?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
That was my first "box set"! I bought it on sale in vinyl too many years ago when the Record Hunter was closing it's doors. sigh...
Quote from: Bunny on February 15, 2010, 04:06:46 PM
That was my first "box set"! I bought it on sale in vinyl too many years ago when the Record Hunter was closing it's doors. sigh...
I bought a bunch of classical LP's from Record Hunter as well. Didn't it close its doors in the late 80's? Then some outfit named Record Explosion took over the same store space at corner of 5th and 42nd, I think.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 15, 2010, 04:17:53 PM
I bought a bunch of classical LP's from Record Hunter as well. Didn't it close its doors in the late 80's? Then some outfit named Record Explosion took over the same store space at corner of 5th and 42nd, I think.
There is currently no record store at the location. It is now occupied by an H&M clothing store, I believe.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2010, 04:25:05 PM
There is currently no record store at the location. It is now occupied by an H&M clothing store, I believe.
Record Hunter was located at the northeast corner of 42 nd and 5th. Are you sure that store space is large enough for H&M? I rarely walk by that immediate neighborhood these days.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 15, 2010, 04:31:10 PM
Record Hunter was located at the northeast corner of 42 nd and 5th. Are you sure that store space is large enough for H&M? I rarely walk by that immediate neighborhood these days.
From the H&M store locator
Quote from: Coopmv on February 15, 2010, 04:17:53 PM
I bought a bunch of classical LP's from Record Hunter as well. Didn't it close its doors in the late 80's? Then some outfit named Record Explosion took over the same store space at corner of 5th and 42nd, I think.
I bought the set at the Record Hunter on 57th St. near Carnegie Hall. That store closed down years before the 42nd St. location. It was the best store.
Google map, 42nd St and 5th, former site of the Record Hunter.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2010, 05:47:29 PM
Google map, 42nd St and 5th, former site of the Record Hunter.
Just makes you wanna cry.
I used to love to drop into HMV a few blocks up 5th ave. They had a clerk there who was very helpful in choosing classical recordings. After they closed, he got a job at the downtown Virgin, saw him there a few times before they also closed. Luckily the best brick and mortar in NYC for new CDs is still standing - JandR.
Quote from: George on February 15, 2010, 06:27:51 PM
Just makes you wanna cry.
I used to love to drop into HMV a few blocks up 5th ave. They had a clerk there who was very helpful in choosing classical recordings. After they closed, he got a job at the downtown Virgin, saw him there a few times before they also closed. Luckily the best brick and mortar in NYC for new CDs is still standing - JandR.
Depends on your point of view. If you need inexpensive, fashionable clothes, it will make you jump for joy. Personally, I find it 1000 times easier to get CDs now than in the days of brick and mortar record stores.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2010, 06:32:51 PM
Depends on your point of view. If you need inexpensive, fashionable clothes, it will make you jump for joy.
I should have said it makes
me wanna cry.
I loved browsing for cds, but also love the convenience of online shopping.
What I wish is that we can live in a world where both can co-exist. I'm kind of surprised how a cd store can't survive. So many cd/dvd purchases are made by people on impulse, that even with better selection and prices online, brick and mortar stores should still exist but that's not what really happened. Walmart, Target, Best Buy and Amazon crushed them underfoot and now those days are gone.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 11, 2010, 07:42:07 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ACDT4P8TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Wish there was some way to collect these Levin/Lyre concertos using a replica Anton walter fortepiano without breaking the bank, Hogwood/AAM provide great orchestral support and Levin uses his own cadenzas, this will keep you spellbound.......if this were complete set it would rise to the top of available fortepiano sets, inspired work
Well Archiv Music has informed me my package is on its way, I decided to buy 4 of the Archiv re-issues of the
Levin/Lyre partial set with Hogwood AAM (the earlier concertos)......this will further enhance for me very solid fortepiano collection of Mozart piano concertos. ;)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/40/409895.JPG) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/OIS443328.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/OIS444571.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/25/259493.JPG)
These will join my only currently owned Levin Mozart CD....
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/34/348497.JPG)
Sofronitski!!!
I love her :-* :-*
The best set on period instruments!
Quote from: Mozart on February 15, 2010, 07:00:14 PM
Sofronitski!!!
I love her :-* :-*
The best set on period instruments!
Did you read post 203 here and the discussion that followed........
Some professional reviewer said it was bad, and I gave the strong counter positive viewpoint but I think many people here put more weight in what the some professional had to say :-[
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 15, 2010, 07:08:59 PM
Did you read post 203 here and the discussion that followed........
Some professional reviewer said it was bad, and I gave the strong counter positive viewpoint but I think many people here put more weight in what the some professional had to say :-[
Is that a professional reviewer? I don't know about anyone else but I don't pop in one disk after the other until I go through all 11! I listen to 1 concerto based on my mood (now number 16). The piano she plays on for me is the best sounding one of all the recordings I have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qxk50KlKmc
I like the evenness between the orchestra and piano.
Lubin is my 2nd choice and then Bilson.
There's this one, which is lovely.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MQ9qPnE2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Mozart on February 15, 2010, 07:00:14 PM
Sofronitski!!!
I love her :-* :-*
The best set on period instruments!
The polarisation generated here is really quite fascinating. It seems there's a tendency for Sofronitzki to be either first choice and adored, or bottom choice and dismissed as quirky. Now, I must say that as my experiments proceed (that is, listening to the same concertos as played by Sofronitzki, Schmidt, and Brendel), I find the situation becoming less clear-cut than I expected. On the one hand, listening to the Brendel versions is becoming a duty, rather than a pleasure. I can't believe Mozart expected his music to sound so silkily humourless, and Marriner's cloudy orchestral sound makes matters worse - so I think the Brendel set is likely to be abandoned soon. On the other hand, I find I'm putting the Schmidt CDs into the player with as much pleasure and anticipation as the Sofronitzki - not because I prefer them, but because I find
both so attractive and convincing, in different ways. Put a gun to my head and I'll take Sofronitzki; but I'd shed serious tears at the loss of the Schmidt, HIP or no HIP. I feel as if I'm drowning in Mozart PCs at present, but it's a great way to go ....
Quote from: Elgarian on February 16, 2010, 12:11:01 AM
I feel as if I'm drowning in Mozart PCs at present, but it's a great way to go ....
This is one of those great bodies of work that I get so caught up in from time to time that I listen to them over and over, scarcely bothering to hear anything else. And with "humorless" (or was it "humourless?" ;) ), I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding Brendel, whose virtuosity is admirable but whose recordings seldom inspire me. Perhaps he intellectualizes the music rather than feels it...? At least that's how it seems to me.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 16, 2010, 04:27:37 AM
This is one of those great bodies of work that I get so caught up in from time to time that I listen to them over and over, scarcely bothering to hear anything else.
That's quite reassuring - I was beginning to wonder if there was a touch of the obsessive about the approach I was adopting, but in truth I think as you say there's so much towering greatness here, that it seems impossible to get to the core of it.
I presume the polarisation I mentioned in my earlier post is arising because each listener and/or interpreter, comes to this music finding different things in it - and its greatness means that those different things really are there to be found, because the music is greater than any one interpretation of it. What Sofronitzki finds, and tries to express, really is there, I suppose; and what Brendel finds, also, and so on. I wonder if it's worth trying to pin this down a little more?
Because I've come to these PCs almost directly from Mozart's operas, I tend to be looking for the same sort of Mozartian insights that I find in the operas. And one of the things that I find so attractive about the operas is how much of the feel of real life is in them - that is, the complex ever-changing feeling of life-as-we-live-it. It doesn't matter how daft the plot is; what counts is what the music tells us about the changing situations. I'm thinking, for example, of Fiordiligi's 'Like a fortress' aria, where she's adopting such a noble, admirable stance, and the music is taking us along with this so wonderfully, except ... there are little orchestral passages that seem to cast doubt on all this; that there's something a bit over the top about all this nobility, which may not be quite what it seems. That's the sort of thing I mean - that mix of the noble with the absurd; the idea that we're never so vulnerable as when we're seeming the opposite. No one expresses those little fleeting moments, musically, like Mozart.
There's a passage near the beginning of the third movement of the 25th piano concerto, where after about 45 seconds of orchestral introduction the piano takes over. The whole sequence during these few minutes is pretty well adorable no matter who plays it, but there's one short passage that illustrates exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. The solo piano begins as it means to go on (that is, making us smile) for about 10 seconds, and then the gear shifts momentarily. The next ten seconds (let me call it passage X) are slower and very different - and then we're back on track again. I want to focus on passage X.
When Sofronitzki plays, I revel in it because the music's cheerful smiling is so attractive. She doesn't make too much of Passage X, though - it's treated like a breathing space between the previous 10 cheerful seconds, and the subsequent continuation of cheerfulness. When Brendel plays it, we barely notice passage X as being very different, at all. The liquid gold has been poured out over the keys from the start, and there never really was much cheerfulness to be interrupted. But when Schmidt plays passage X, it is heartstopping. It's as if, in the midst of telling a joke, someone has just remembered something unspeakably moving, and chokes, but then continues with the joke, because life must go on. The point is - for me this is bang-on-target Mozart - the Mozart I love in the operas - the Mozart who says, you see, life is like this, and this, and this...., and it's no single one of these, but all of these things.
Now - if this is not the Mozart you love above all (and there are so many reasons for loving the stuff that it might easily
not be), then Schmidt (or Sofronitzki) may seem quirky, or lacking in fluency or subtlety (that is, a different
kind of subtlety to the kind I'm describing here). And my point is that this polarisation isn't arising because some of us are right and some of us are wrong, but because the music is so huge that we're all partly, and differently, right. (And, I suppose, we're all partly, and differently ... not wrong exactly, but incomplete.)
QuoteIt's as if, in the midst of telling a joke, someone has just remembered something unspeakably moving, and chokes, but then continues with the joke, because life must go on.
Haha I love how you described it :) Mozart does it alot! There can the brightest music possible and then a cloud passes over the sun and it seems ut of place but also in a way there were hints of it coming in the brightness. I love those moments :)
QuoteAnd, I suppose, we're all partly, and differently ... not wrong exactly, but incomplete.)
Only Mozart is complete ;D
Quote from: Elgarian on February 16, 2010, 08:31:42 AM
...there's so much towering greatness here, that it seems impossible to get to the core of it. ...each listener and/or interpreter, comes to this music finding different things in it - and its greatness means that those different things really are there to be found, because the music is greater than any one interpretation of it.
Because I've come to these PCs almost directly from Mozart's operas, I tend to be looking for the same sort of Mozartian insights that I find in the operas. And one of the things that I find so attractive about the operas is how much of the feel of real life is in them - that is, the complex ever-changing feeling of life-as-we-live-it.
I love seeing your thoughtfulness at work, Alan, as you explore this music so many of us love so much. I think you've hit the nail squarely with the observations quoted above. To me Mozart's late operas and late piano concertos are very closely related and, like all great art, are richer than any single interpretation can describe.
Quote from: George on February 15, 2010, 06:27:51 PM
Just makes you wanna cry.
I used to love to drop into HMV a few blocks up 5th ave. They had a clerk there who was very helpful in choosing classical recordings. After they closed, he got a job at the downtown Virgin, saw him there a few times before they also closed. Luckily the best brick and mortar in NYC for new CDs is still standing - JandR.
George, The old JandR Classical Music was much better IMO. It lasted until the mid 90's.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2010, 05:04:22 PM
George, The old JandR Classical Music was much better IMO. It lasted until the mid 90's.
The new one still kicks ass. Even when Tower, HMV and the others were all open, I still preferred JandR. Great selection, prices, customer service and very knowledgeable staff.
Elgarian - it's balls that you didn't like the Brendel much, I probably should've said why I liked it as it could've helped avoid a bad buy. Primerally Brendel in Mozart was a mini revelation for me because I was so used to zippy (or excessively grand, but this style is out of fashion and increasingly harder to come across) Mozart which took great pains to say "I am Mozart, the extrovert genius, listen to my endless happy melodies, how they doth flow" that to hear Brendel's inward approach took Mozart closer to the joy-tempered-with-seriousness of Beethoven's set, which I found more immediately "graspable". In hindsight this does seem somewhat opposed to the chamber music style you are looking for, but I never really found Marriner's accompaniment to be terrible, just a bit workaday.
and I want t add that if any pianist can bring out the humor in Mozart it's Brendel. I agree Brendel, in this recording, isn' always helped by Mariner and the ASMF. However, from what I heard in the clips Schmidt and Masur are much worse in this respect.
Quote from: Herman on February 16, 2010, 11:47:51 PM
and I want t add that if any pianist can bring out the humor in Mozart it's Brendel. I agree Brendel, in this recording, isn' always helped by Mariner and the ASMF. However, from what I heard in the clips Schmidt and Masur are much worse in this respect.
Worth saying a couple of things here. First, I'm not suggesting 'humour' as a universal key to Mozart's PCs - far from it. It just so happened that the humorous aspect figures strongly in the passages I was discussing. What I'm paying attention to is not one
particular aspect but the complexity of aspects - the little changes in mood, sometimes so fleeting that we barely register them. Pretty much as we live them, in fact. This is the thing that seems to attract me most strongly to Mozart in the first place, so I'm looking for performances that reflect that.
The second point - which I should have thought of before - is that humour is, as we know, a very personal thing; and the joke that has Jack folding up in laughter leaves Jill completely cold. So I believe you when you say Brendel can bring out the humour in Mozart
for you - but I don't much hear it myself. Or rather, I hear
something, but wouldn't call it humour, and it doesn't make me smile. This is the great difficulty of these comparisons - we're trying to
talk about things that really can only be
shown.
The third point is that my perceptions are changing as I become more familiar with the music and the performances. I've now listened to no 25, for instance, about half a dozen times played by Sofronitzki (I've had her set longest), three times played by Schmidt, and twice played by Brendel. My impressions of them now bear little resemblance to what they were when I first listened to the short online samples. (Actually when I listened to the samples I thought Brendel's performances were very enticing, and I bought the set expecting to enjoy them very much.)
And most importantly, I'm certainly
not recommending that the Brendel set is a dud to be avoided, and that the Schmidt set is a treasure that all should possess. I'm just talking about the journey I'm taking, and the effect it's having on me, and trying to express that - the better to understand what's going on myself, hopefully.
Quote from: Lethe on February 16, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
Elgarian - it's balls that you didn't like the Brendel much, I probably should've said why I liked it as it could've helped avoid a bad buy.
I doubt it. I was pretty determined to go for it. Before I took the plunge, I listened to the samples and thought they sounded very attractive; and I was somewhat familar with Brendel through some of his Beethoven sonatas, so was easily beguiled by the name and the silky legato. Just one of those things. I don't actually regret the purchase because I've already learned so much from the exercise I'm engaged in.
Just don't let the experience put you off Brendel's Schubert and Haydn, if you find yourself exploring those avenues in future (a natural progression from his fine Beethoven)! :-*
Quote from: Lethe on February 17, 2010, 02:44:59 AM
Just don't let the experience put you off Brendel's Schubert and Haydn, if you find yourself exploring those avenues in future (a natural progression from his fine Beethoven)! :-*
Though I don't enjoy his Beethoven, I agree that his Schubert and Haydn are well worth investigating.
Quote from: Lethe on February 17, 2010, 02:44:59 AM
Just don't let the experience put you off Brendel's Schubert and Haydn, if you find yourself exploring those avenues in future (a natural progression from his fine Beethoven)! :-*
and George said:QuoteThough I don't enjoy his Beethoven, I agree that his Schubert and Haydn are well worth investigating.
My appreciation of music has more holes in it than a colander, and oddly enough, I've never been particularly fond of Beethoven's sonatas; but Brendel was the only interpreter who came close to making me fonder. So I'd never write him off. I hereby solemnly promise to approach his Schubert and Haydn with an open mind, sometime in the future.
X [Elgarian, his mark]
Quote from: Lethe on February 16, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
Elgarian - it's balls that you didn't like the Brendel much, I probably should've said why I liked it as it could've helped avoid a bad buy. Primerally Brendel in Mozart was a mini revelation for me because I was so used to zippy (or excessively grand, but this style is out of fashion and increasingly harder to come across) Mozart which took great pains to say "I am Mozart, the extrovert genius, listen to my endless happy melodies, how they doth flow" that to hear Brendel's inward approach took Mozart closer to the joy-tempered-with-seriousness of Beethoven's set, which I found more immediately "graspable". In hindsight this does seem somewhat opposed to the chamber music style you are looking for, but I never really found Marriner's accompaniment to be terrible, just a bit workaday.
You cannot expect a true Handelian to like Mozart much, no matter who the pianist is ... ;D
Quote from: Coopmv on February 17, 2010, 06:56:44 PM
You cannot expect a true Handelian to like Mozart much, no matter who the pianist is ... ;D
Except Mozart himself. ::)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xbAojc4JL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I have been watching this Brautigam/Lubimov CD for some time and finally placed order, I have recently been buying up any remaining fortepiano Mozart I don't own already and this was at the top of the list.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SZ057T89L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Was not happy with this Levin performance.......really a recording sound issue.
For these early pastiche works Levin uses harpsicord and it is so recessed and scaled down sounds like it was played in room behind orchestra, not natural sounding balance and dwarfed in scale by orchestra.
Levin needs same team that recorded Staier or Viviana Sofronitzsky which have more natural equal balanced scale between keyboard and orchestra. The later Levin Mozart releases uses fortepiano and has better balanced scale but still not as good as Andreas Staier or Viviana Sofronitzsky CDs
Quote from: Lethe on February 16, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
but I never really found Marriner's accompaniment to be terrible, just a bit workaday.
I should have commented on this before. 'Terrible' wouldn't be fair, and I think strict accuracy has been a casualty of my efforts to make the distinctions clear. Your word 'workaday' is better, though I'd still want to inject into that notion a flavouring of slushy romantic flabbiness. But it's not 'terrible'. I'm guilty of over-egging the pudding there. Apologies.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 18, 2010, 07:20:54 AM
I should have commented on this before. 'Terrible' wouldn't be fair, and I think strict accuracy has been a casualty of my efforts to make the distinctions clear. Your word 'workaday' is better, though I'd still want to inject into that notion a flavouring of slushy romantic flabbiness. But it's not 'terrible'. I'm guilty of over-egging the pudding there. Apologies.
I'm going with awful.
The best thing about Marriner is that he's not as bad as Tate is with Uchida.....
Quote from: Tyson on February 18, 2010, 08:23:10 PM
The best thing about Marriner is that he's not as bad as Tate is with Uchida.....
disagree. What makes Tate better is he has a better sense of the opera links in the PCs.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XhqY9VSHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
As I play other competing modern piano sets and then come back to Anda/DG I become more convinced than ever that it is my very favorite complete modern piano set. It just has a refreshing sparkling quality that removes any hint of routine, seems to flow effortlessly and the sound quality is very fine........on a revealing system you can hear deep into the mix and hear very subtle details and nuances.
For forte piano I remain strong advocate for Viviana Sofronitzky set, her imaginative brilliant keyboard work make competitiors like Bilson and Immerseel seem earthbound by comparison........if Brautigam ever records a complete set then we have a real potential challenge.
Btw if I could put Gardiner's orchestral performance with Sofronitzky's keyboard and proper sound balance we would have a truely great set
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 31, 2010, 04:45:11 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
As I play other competing modern piano sets and then come back to Anda/DG I become more convinced than ever that it is my very favorite complete modern piano set.
DA, This is indeed one of the best CD sets available for these works regardless of piano types. I have had this set for almost two years but have owned some of the concertos on LP for over 20 years ...
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 31, 2010, 04:45:11 PM
For forte piano I remain strong advocate for Viviana Sofronitzky set, her imaginative brilliant keyboard work make competitiors like Bilson and Immerseel seem earthbound by comparison........if Brautigam ever records a complete set then we have a real potential challenge.
Some of us think that Bilson and Immerseel, especially Bilson, I would say, are totally competitive and excellent sets. Anyway, I share your admiration for Anda and the Camerata Academica.
Quote from: Coopmv on July 31, 2010, 04:54:13 PM
DA, This is indeed one of the best CD sets available for these works regardless of piano types. I have had this set for almost two years but have owned some of the concertos on LP for over 20 years ...
Coop Anda/DG is a truely great set......I can find none betterThe natural competition should be Schiff/Decca but it really is not as fluid or sparkling
Perahia is relaxed and introspective but not animated enough, very refined and elegant
New Barenboim is pretty good, better than I expected but no real threat
Brendel seems earhtbound to me, technically very good but never sparkles or puts a smile on my face
Uchida same comments as Perahia
Ashkenazy set not as consistently great but has its moments
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 05:00:08 PM
Some of us think that Bilson and Immerseel, especially Bilson, I would say, are totally competitive and excellent sets. Anyway, I share your admiration for Anda and the Camerata Academica.
I love Gardiner's orchestral work with English Baroque Soloists, very vibrant and up tempo......
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 31, 2010, 05:09:09 PM
I love Gardiner's orchestral work with English Baroque Soloists, very vibrant and up tempo......
Do you know the recordings by Richard Goode and the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra on Nonesuch,
DA?
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 05:12:55 PM
Do you know the recordings by Richard Goode and the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra on Nonesuch, DA?
Yes indeed.........if a complete set existed a serious threat to unseat Anda/DG from the throne, Orpheus provides great lifted tempos and Goode matches them with vibrant keyboard performances, a sympathetic partnership, I think I purchased them all
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 31, 2010, 05:17:36 PM
Yes indeed.........if a complete set existed a serious threat to unseat Anda/DG from the throne, Orpheus provides great lifted tempos and Goode matches them with vibrant keyboard performances, I think I purchased them all
I totally agree. Maybe in the future they will continue their recordings of this cycle. It would be great news. :)
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 31, 2010, 04:45:11 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XhqY9VSHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
As I play other competing modern piano sets and then come back to Anda/DG I become more convinced than ever that it is my very favorite complete modern piano set. It just has a refreshing sparkling quality that removes any hint of routine, seems to flow effortlessly and the sound quality is very fine........on a revealing system you can hear deep into the mix and hear very subtle details and nuances.
For forte piano I remain strong advocate for Viviana Sofronitzky set, her imaginative brilliant keyboard work make competitiors like Bilson and Immerseel seem earthbound by comparison........if Brautigam ever records a complete set then we have a real potential challenge.
Btw if I could put Gardiner's orchestral performance with Sofronitzky's keyboard and proper sound balance we would have a truely great set
It is hard to find the
Viviana Sofronitzky set other than an odd quasi-private source that does not inspire confidence.
Quote from: Coopmv on July 31, 2010, 04:54:13 PM
DA, This is indeed one of the best CD sets available for these works regardless of piano types. I have had this set for almost two years but have owned some of the concertos on LP for over 20 years ...
Question: The box set says it's an 8 CD set. Perahia's version is a 12 CD set, with in general 2 concertos per CD. How did DG slim it down by a third?
Quote from: kishnevi on July 31, 2010, 08:20:47 PM
Question: The box set says it's an 8 CD set. Perahia's version is a 12 CD set, with in general 2 concertos per CD. How did DG slim it down by a third?
The Perahia has four works not on the Anda set: Concerto for Two Pianos, Concerto for Three Pianos and the two Rondos for Piano and Orchestra. Add in more generous timings per disc for the Anda, and there it is.
Quote from: Franco on July 31, 2010, 07:48:08 PM
It is hard to find the Viviana Sofronitzky set other than an odd quasi-private source that does not inspire confidence.
Are you in the USA?
Arkivmusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=201826) is a well known vendor. :)
Q
Quote from: Franco on July 31, 2010, 07:48:08 PM
It is hard to find the Viviana Sofronitzky set other than an odd quasi-private source that does not inspire confidence.
JPC are offering it at 80 euros here:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-S%E4mtliche-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/9591574 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-S%E4mtliche-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/9591574)
but of course there's the problem of high cost of shipping to the US.
Quote from: Que on August 01, 2010, 12:58:20 AM
Are you in the USA? Arkivmusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=201826) is a well known vendor. :)
Q
Thanks for that information - when I checked the last time (not too long ago, maybe a few months) they did not offer this set, nor did anyone else. In fact, the only source at the time was a European email from her website. A couple of us exchanged some emails and the price quoted kept changing, and the deal seemed somewhat like a scam (hard to believe, I know, but neither of us ordered anything).
Here is the discussion about the situation finding this set back then. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16277.msg411687.html#msg411687)
Quote from: Bulldog on July 31, 2010, 08:43:33 PM
The Perahia has four works not on the Anda set: Concerto for Two Pianos, Concerto for Three Pianos and the two Rondos for Piano and Orchestra. Add in more generous timings per disc for the Anda, and there it is.
Yes the clever chaps at DG do not include some works mentioned by Bulldog, and were able to fit 3 or 4 early piano concertos on a single CD like 13,15,17 and 16,18,19 so Anda set fits on 8 Cds total, his overall timings are faster than Perahia
Quote from: Franco on August 01, 2010, 03:57:13 AM
Thanks for that information - when I checked the last time (not too long ago, maybe a few months) they did not offer this set, nor did anyone else. In fact, the only source at the time was a European email from her website. A couple of us exchanged some emails and the price quoted kept changing, and the deal seemed somewhat like a scam (hard to believe, I know, but neither of us ordered anything).
Here is the discussion about the situation finding this set back then. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16277.msg411687.html#msg411687)
The JPC link above provided by Elgarian has short samples for each track of Sofronitzky set so you get some idea of sound balance and playing style
Viviana uses replica (Paul McNulty) Anton Walter forte piano, very early concertos on CDs 10,11 use harpsicord. Mozart was known to have personally owned an Anton Walter keyboard and insisted on its use when he performed his own works in public.....
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 31, 2010, 04:45:11 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XhqY9VSHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
For forte piano I remain strong advocate for Viviana Sofronitzky set, her imaginative brilliant keyboard work make competitiors like Bilson and Immerseel seem earthbound by comparison........if Brautigam ever records a complete set then we have a real potential challenge.
Btw if I could put Gardiner's orchestral performance with Sofronitzky's keyboard and proper sound balance we would have a truely great set
DA - I own the Anda, Schiff, & Bilson sets of the PCs, but have been contemplating the
Viviana Sofronitzky offering for a while just not easy for a Yank to purchase at a decent price! :-\
Amazon USA has it listed at $120 (but not available!) w/ no Marketplace sellers listed; JPC has the set for about 80 Eruos, so a similar price once shipping is included!
Now I did contact the Euromusica people in the Czech Republic and was quoted a price of $50 + $10 S/H - hey that's more like a deal! But, their website is still in development and does not offer a secure credit card purchasing option, and I'm reluctant to place an order via e-mail - Dave :)
Quote from: SonicMan on August 01, 2010, 06:15:09 AM
DA - I own the Anda, Schiff, & Bilson sets of the PCs, but have been contemplating the Viviana Sofronitzky offering for a while just not easy for a Yank to purchase at a decent price! :-\
Amazon USA has it listed at $120 (but not available!) w/ no Marketplace sellers listed; JPC has the set for about 80 Eruos, so a similar price once shipping is included!
Now I did contact the Euromusica people in the Czech Republic and was quoted a price of $50 + $10 S/H - hey that's more like a deal! But, their website is still in development and does not offer a secure credit card purchasing option, and I'm reluctant to place an order via e-mail - Dave :)
SonicQue has solved your dilema above..........
Arkiv Music seems to be best/safest deal for USA customers at $86, JPC has the sound samples
I agree with you and would not buy overseas without Visa card option.........
QuoteAre you in the USA? Arkivmusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=201826) is a well known vendor
Presently enjoying:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/316ImcdzirL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Elgarian on August 01, 2010, 01:11:42 AM
JPC are offering it at 80 euros here:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-S%E4mtliche-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/9591574 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-S%E4mtliche-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/9591574)
but of course there's the problem of high cost of shipping to the US.
Although after spending €80 for the set, another €13 seems trifling.
I just visited that jpc link and listened only to the clip of the first movement of the D minor: so flaccid it makes Levine's Met brass in Die Walküre seem as vigorous as 18 year old boys watching a wet t-shirt competition.
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 01, 2010, 06:52:41 AM
I just visited that jpc link and listened only to the clip of the first movement of the D minor: so flaccid it makes Levine's Met brass in Die Walküre seem as vigorous as 18 year old boys watching a wet t-shirt competition.
Setting new standards in thread cross-pollination there, Dave!
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 31, 2010, 05:03:51 PM
Coop Anda/DG is a truely great set......I can find none better
The natural competition should be Schiff/Decca but it really is not as fluid or sparkling
Perahia is relaxed and introspective but not animated enough, very refined and elegant
New Barenboim is pretty good, better than I expected but no real threat
Brendel seems earhtbound to me, technically very good but never sparkles or puts a smile on my face
Uchida same comments as Perahia
Ashkenazy set not as consistently great but has its moments
The reason Schiff would naturally be compared to Anda is that same orchestral group is used directed by Sandor Vegh for Schiff many years later. I must give Anda the edge however since his performance sounds more fluid and spontaneous to me, he makes the music dance and sparkle compared to Schiff who seems slightly reserved by comparison and more cautious although technically sound.
In his notes Schiffs talks about his desire to keep things as simple as possible and not use ornaments or other individual touches that call too much attention to keyboard style......yet by his own admission Mozart was very loose in sketching out piano parts allowing much freedom in thier interpitation for the performer, Mozart undoubtly could play to the moment or as his mood dictates for the occassion, Anda for me displays this loose imaginative style in a more convincing fashion
Quote from: Elgarian on August 01, 2010, 08:25:56 AM
Setting new standards in thread cross-pollination there, Dave!
Thought you'd like that one, Alan. ;^)
Hoping a get a little Mozart Help. I have a standard question with less than standard parameters. I already own a good deal of Mozart's concertos, mostly on singles/doubles of Perahia and Brendel (with a de Larrocha thrown in). I'd like to get one set so that I can have them all in one location with me. I am also missing some here and there, so this will help bridge that gap as well. Seeing as I have some Brendel and Perahia already, I have eliminated those two from contention.
I am looking for good sound and piano (no fortepianos and such). From what I have read here, my best choices would seem to be:
Anda
Ashkenazy
Schiff (EDIT: Should mention that at $80+ or so, this is less competitive than the others)
I wil be going through the clips of these over the next days/weeks to see if one of them might seem best for me, but there are a few others I see little about. These include:
1. This set from Warner. It has The Piano Concerti. (Martha Argerich [in #20], Daniel Barenboim [#'s 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 15, 18, 21, 22 & 24], Karl Engel [#'s 1-4 & 7 {Concerto for Three Pianos w.Till Engel & Leopold Hager}], Till Fellner [#19], Sebastian Knauer [#16], Friedrich Gulda [#'s 10 {Concerto for Two Pianos w.Chick Corea}, 23 & 26], Maria-Joao Pires [#'s 9, 12, 13, 17 & 27 + Rondos, K.#'s 382, 386 & 511] and Sviatoslav Richter [#25. With Bashmet cond.].
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646233229.jpg)
2. Brilliant set with Han/Freeman. I have found three different covers. Not sure they are all the same, but the red ones say complete:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HKRTGC94L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)or(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DaQ8RbMUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) or(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/99476.jpg)
I also considered Uchida, Serkin, and Barenboim, but decided they were probably not for me. I would be interested in your thoughts on these and any others, especially the two pictured above compared to the others.
Thanks for you help!
Quote from: ukrneal on November 17, 2010, 11:12:51 AM
I am looking for good sound and piano (no fortepianos and such). From what I have read here, my best choices would seem to be:
Anda
*Pounds fist on table*
Schiff's playing is dull, haven't heard Ashkenazy, Anda is excellent.
Quote from: ukrneal on November 17, 2010, 11:12:51 AM
I am looking for good sound and piano (no fortepianos and such). From what I have read here, my best choices would seem to be:
Anda
Ashkenazy
Schiff (EDIT: Should mention that at $80+ or so, this is less competitive than the others)
Of these three, I consider Schiff the clear winner. Anda's quite good, but the sound is not the best.
Quote from: Bulldog on November 17, 2010, 03:49:48 PM
Of these three, I consider Schiff the clear winner. Anda's quite good, but the sound is not the best.
Same here. Schiff is excellent. Ashenazy is good, but I don't like his handling of the orchestra, too mushy. Barenboim (Berlin) is an interesting option, a very Romanticized version, if that sort of thing is appealing.
He hasn't recorded all of them, but John O'Conor with Mackerras is very good in the four CDs (17/24, 19/23, 20/22, 21/27) he has done. I have all but the 21/27 but I expect that one to be of the same level.
Quote from: ukrneal on November 17, 2010, 11:12:51 AM
Hoping a get a little Mozart Help.
I am looking for good sound and piano (no fortepianos and such). From what I have read here, my best choices would seem to be:
Anda
Schiff (EDIT: Should mention that at $80+ or so, this is less competitive than the others)
Well, I have 4 sets, 2 on modern piano (i.e.
Anda & Schiff), and 2 on fortepiano (i.e.
Bilson & Sofronitzki) - from your comments above,
Anda might be your best choice - older recordings that some consider on the 'sweet side' of performance, but his No. 21 (in the movie that I won't mention) was one of my early introductions to Wolfie! OTOH, I have little problem listening to
Schiff - I obtained this set for half the price of the current Amazon offerings and am pleased to own both; but
Anda is enjoyable and is less expensive!
Now, I don't understand your dismissal of the fortepiano - bad experience or inexperience? I love a good fortepiano (and it has taken me a number of years & this forum to appreciate the instrument) when played for the music composed during its dominance, as in Mozart's life time. My most recent purchase above was the
Viviana Sofronitzki set on a fortepiano built by her husband (check out Gurn's Classical thread if interested) - now, I would still suggest the
Anda box, but if indeed you have not listen to a lot of fortepiano recordings, then you have much to learn and enjoy - :D
Quote from: Leon on November 17, 2010, 04:12:24 PM
He hasn't recorded all of them, but John O'Conor with Mackerras is very good in the four CDs (17/24, 19/23, 20/22, 21/27) he has done. I have all but the 21/27 but I expect that one to be of the same level.
I agree. O'Conor manages to evoke a Forte-piano like sound on a modern piano through his articulation. Very satisfying recordings in marvelous sound.
It saddens me that we'll get no more Mozart recordings from Mackerras - his last decade was almost pure gold.
Quote from: Tyson on November 17, 2010, 07:35:00 PM
It saddens me that we'll get no more Mozart recordings from Mackerras - his last decade was almost pure gold.
I found his last Mozart release, Symphonies 35, 36, 34, 32, 29, to be rather a disappointment.
Quote from: ukrneal on November 17, 2010, 11:12:51 AM
1. This set from Warner. It has The Piano Concerti. (Martha Argerich [in #20],
Anyone got any views on this one? Wild? Spontaneous?
Quote from: ukrneal on November 17, 2010, 11:12:51 AM
Daniel Barenboim [#'s 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 15, 18, 21, 22 & 24],
Very strange choice that since the one where DB is as far as I know peerless, they leave out -- 16
Quote from: Mandryka on November 17, 2010, 09:28:52 PM
Anyone got any views on this one? Wild? Spontaneous?
Very strange choice that since the one where DB is as far as I know peerless, they leave out -- 16
Well the box is a very odd mix entirely. But that was part of its attraction as well. It seems that few have it. JPC has a digital download page that shows all the different combinations if you are interested (who is playing with whom).
I confess I've been always a fan of Mieczyslav Horszowki. I can listen with great joy to his Bach or Beethoven, to his Brahms, Chopin, Schubert or Schumann. And in spite of his miraculous vitality of giving public recitals until his 90's, what impresses me the most is his youthful and intense musicality – his phrasing and tone are unaffected and natural and yet very much alive and spontaneous. And I believe this freshness is even more apparent in his Mozart.
Many may know well Horszowski's famous partnership with Szigeti for the recording of the complete Mozart Violin Sonatas or his other Mozart recordings with Casals or the Budapest at the Prades Festival. But his wonderful recordings of the Mozart sonatas, released in a complete set by Arbiter and more occasionally by other labels (Lyrinx, Nonesuch, BBC, Pearl) are only rarely mentioned. And perhaps even less known are the recordings of the Mozart Piano Concertos with Horszowski and Frederic Waldman, during a series of live performances at the Metropolitan Museum, in 1962.
I remember my surprise and astonishment the first time I listened to these Horszowski recordings. I felt I had to relisten to Schnabel to feel that amount of inventiveness and to remember Clara Haskil for the same kind of candid intimacy. I must recognize that for some listeners the sound is less than pristine, the orchestra is too modest, Horszowski is not the most "perfect" player and nothing is in tune with any historically informed Mozart "idiom". But for me it is a delight to listen to such "unperfect", but vital and refreshing music making.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516QSJ2ZQ7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5161VMHMQGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000005SFK.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000005SFH.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Hmmm. And now I've come across the BPO/Barenboim set at about $30 (not complete, but 10 discs, including one DVD). These seem to get good reveiws.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e3-WK2V4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I have also managed to come across a review of the other Warner set here (the one entitled 250th Anniversary Edition): http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Warner_piano_concertos_256462332.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Warner_piano_concertos_256462332.htm).
Quote from: ukrneal on November 25, 2010, 12:57:45 PM
Hmmm. And now I've come across the BPO/Barenboim set at about $30 (not complete, but 10 discs, including one DVD). These seem to get good reveiws.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e3-WK2V4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I have also managed to come across a review of the other Warner set here (the one entitled 250th Anniversary Edition): http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Warner_piano_concertos_256462332.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Warner_piano_concertos_256462332.htm).
I wouldn't want Barenboim's PC set as my only set, generally he romanticizes them where I generally like them with crisp execution and brisk tempos, but they are quite enjoyable.
While not a complete set by any means (5 concertos), I highly recommend the 3 CD set on APR of all of Edwin Fischer's Mozart concertos and solo works--excellent remastering and just wonderful playing. Along with Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas, surely among the century's greatest piano recordings.
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 02, 2010, 08:51:12 PM
While not a complete set by any means (5 concertos), I highly recommend the 3 CD set on APR of all of Edwin Fischer's Mozart concertos and solo works--excellent remastering and just wonderful playing. Along with Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas, surely among the century's greatest piano recordings.
For 22, 24 and the Rondo I tend to listen more to the recordings with the the Royal Danish Symphony Orchestra -- slightly better sound I think. Maybe a bit more daemonic.
Quote from: Oldnslow on December 02, 2010, 08:51:12 PM
While not a complete set by any means (5 concertos), I highly recommend the 3 CD set on APR of all of Edwin Fischer's Mozart concertos and solo works--excellent remastering and just wonderful playing. Along with Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas, surely among the century's greatest piano recordings.
I have the two Pearl volumes by the pianist and they are lovely.
Brautigam
BIS-SACD-1794 Mozart Piano Concertos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLHzeMBgS5o
Quote from: Clever Hans on December 05, 2010, 09:52:18 AM
Brautigam
BIS-SACD-1794 Mozart Piano Concertos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLHzeMBgS5o
I didn't wait that British accent from Brautigam. :)
Quote from: Clever Hans on December 05, 2010, 09:52:18 AM
Brautigam
BIS-SACD-1794 Mozart Piano Concertos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLHzeMBgS5o
That is a fantastic video clip - I will look forward to these disc becoming available.
Quote from: ukrneal on November 25, 2010, 12:57:45 PM
Hmmm. And now I've come across the BPO/Barenboim set at about $30 (not complete, but 10 discs, including one DVD). These seem to get good reveiws.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e3-WK2V4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I have also managed to come across a review of the other Warner set here (the one entitled 250th Anniversary Edition): http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Warner_piano_concertos_256462332.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Warner_piano_concertos_256462332.htm).
This is my first choice, actually. A very very fine set. I don't agree that he romanticizes at all. What Barenboim does, however, is to play from an operatic perspective. Mozart was first and foremost an opera composer. And that is how Barenboim treats the concertos: melodies sing with a vocal line and sense of breath. It is really very natural and a joy to listen to. There are always new things to discover in these performances. Especially the late concertos 20-27 are absolutely first rate. Also, I'd wager that you'd have an extremely hard time finding another set where soloist and orchestra are so totally of the same mind. This is a real dialogue between equals. The Berliners play with absolutely gorgeous tone. This set is in every way to be preferred over Barenboim's earlier set on EMI with the ECO.
Quote from: Mensch on December 05, 2010, 07:34:48 PM
This is my first choice, actually. A very very fine set. I don't agree that he romanticizes at all. What Barenboim does, however, is to play from an operatic perspective. Mozart was first and foremost an opera composer. And that is how Barenboim treats the concertos: melodies sing with a vocal line and sense of breath. It is really very natural and a joy to listen to. There are always new things to discover in these performances. Especially the late concertos 20-27 are absolutely first rate. Also, I'd wager that you'd have an extremely hard time finding another set where soloist and orchestra are so totally of the same mind. This is a real dialogue between equals. The Berliners play with absolutely gorgeous tone. This set is in every way to be preferred over Barenboim's earlier set on EMI with the ECO.
Thanks for your review, I can see that I am going to have to get that set.
Horowitz once remarked that Chopin should be played in the manner that most people play Mozart and that Mozart should be played in the manner that Chopin is played. Sounds like Barenboim feels this way too.
Quote from: George on December 06, 2010, 05:39:09 AM
Thanks for your review, I can see that I am going to have to get that set.
Horowitz once remarked that Chopin should be played in the manner that most people play Mozart and that Mozart should be played in the manner that Chopin is played. Sounds like Barenboim feels this way too.
Is that a "Bad Santa" avatar? Great movie!
Quote from: erato on December 06, 2010, 05:40:36 AM
Is that a "Bad Santa" avatar? Great movie!
Indeed it is! And yes, indeed it is a great movie!
Quote from: ukrneal on November 25, 2010, 12:57:45 PM
Hmmm. And now I've come across the BPO/Barenboim set at about $30 (not complete, but 10 discs, including one DVD). These seem to get good reveiws.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e3-WK2V4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Well, curious about the 'best' offering on this set - just a single seller on Amazon USA w/ a $65 price (adding S&H) - assume that this set is coming out 'across the pond' at half the price or less? :D
Quote from: SonicMan on December 06, 2010, 02:45:42 PM
Well, curious about the 'best' offering on this set - just a single seller on Amazon USA w/ a $65 price (adding S&H) - assume that this set is coming out 'across the pond' at half the price or less? :D
This set was released quote some time ago, it may be a limited edition that is dwindling.
Quote from: SonicMan on December 06, 2010, 02:45:42 PM
Well, curious about the 'best' offering on this set - just a single seller on Amazon USA w/ a $65 price (adding S&H) - assume that this set is coming out 'across the pond' at half the price or less? :D
It's $29.90 at Berkshire.
EDIT: Add $1 for shipping of this set and $6 total shipping to the order. SO $36.99 if this is all you buy. I don't think I've ever bought less than 10 items at a go there, so let me know if there is something else you want - I may find it! :)
Quote from: SonicMan on December 06, 2010, 02:45:42 PM
Well, curious about the 'best' offering on this set - just a single seller on Amazon USA w/ a $65 price (adding S&H) - assume that this set is coming out 'across the pond' at half the price or less? :D
It was released five years ago in Germany (11.11.05). I bought my copy in Feb 2008. I'm in complete agreement with Mensch on the merits of this set.
Sarge
Thanks Guys for the help on the Barenboim set - guess one that I had overlooked! :-\
I've not made a BRO purchase in a while and usually order at least a half dozen items or more, so will take a look tonight; $30 for 10 discs is pretty good! :)
Quote from: SonicMan on December 07, 2010, 01:08:46 PM
Thanks Guys for the help on the Barenboim set - guess one that I had overlooked! :-\
I've not made a BRO purchase in a while and usually order at least a half dozen items or more, so will take a look tonight; $30 for 10 discs is pretty good! :)
Dave,
Apparently that Sofronitsky set has had a stimulating effect. ;D
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2010, 03:05:16 PM
Dave,
Apparently that Sofronitsky set has had a stimulating effect. ;D
Yes indeed,
Antoine - re-listened to half that set over the weekend;
Viviana S. is a joy on the fortepiano; now should I REALLY add
Dan B.? ;) ;D Dave
Quote from: SonicMan on December 07, 2010, 03:47:07 PM
Yes indeed, Antoine - re-listened to half that set over the weekend; Viviana S. is a joy on the fortepiano; now should I REALLY add Dan B.? ;) ;D Dave
Dave, if you are looking for some excellent performances of Mozart's piano concertos on modern instruments, I would recommend to check out the interpretations by Richard Goode and the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra (Nonesuch). It's not a complete cycle, but there are several wonderful discs there. :)
They've probably been mention here somewhere, but the O'Conor/Mackerras recordings on Telarc are splendid, as are those Brendel/Mackerras recordings that I have heard.
Mozart's piano concertos are very popular with my local classical radio station. In fact, they seem to be aired more often than Bolero, even! One of the manifestations of this repetitiveness is the chance to occasionally catch one of these concertos mid-performance with no prior knowledge of who the performers are. It's kinda fun to listen for a while - usually while I'm parked in my car - and gauge the interpretations completely unencumbered by prejudices which might otherwise influence my assessment of the performance.
A couple weeks ago I caught the finale of no. 25 - unknown performers - and was intrigued by the interpretation. Not bad, with a lively pianist and good accompaniment, but missing some of the flexibility I prefer in my Mozart, principally due the pianist's habit of preferring energy and forward momentum over rumination and color. The pianist turned out to be Argerich. While I adore Argerich in other repertoire this is the second time I've heard her in a Mozart PC (or part of one anyway) and felt somewhat disengaged. She's extremely good, but her Mozart will never be my daily bread.
Then came this past Wednesday night. Parked the car and lo and behold on came the finale of no. 22. Pianist and orchestra unknown. Listened a bit and had difficulty determining whether I liked what I was hearing. Interesting, but was it energetic enough? Perhaps Argerich had the right idea after all.
Sticking with it, I began to notice that while this pianist was something of the anti-Argerich, he/she definitely had a battle plan as to the solo part. What I began to notice was an emphasis on color, subtlety, nuance, and something amounting to, well, "perfect timing". IOW, there was a confidence to the playing which seemed to catch every Mozartian "knuckle-busting twist" and "off-balance turn" in perfect stride, while the mystery soloist never let his/her guard down for a moment as far as keeping alive the all important Mozartian symmetry (balance, balance, balance). The whole of the movement pulled together tightly as a result of the concentrated emphasis on the subtly whereas sometimes the opposite can occur, with damage being done from undue focus on the minutia. But not here. Timing. These folks have it. And it was mesmerizing.
So...then it all ended. The moment of truth had arrived - who were the performers? My heart stopped...
Schiff/Vegh.
Whaddya know! My old standbys. Good to know after all these years they still pack a wallop!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 16, 2010, 11:27:01 PM
Mozart's piano concertos are very popular with my local classical radio station. In fact, they seem to be aired more often than Bolero, even! One of the manifestations of this repetitiveness is the chance to occasionally catch one of these works mid-performance with no prior knowledge of who the performers are. It's kinda fun to listen for a while - usually while I'm parked - and gauge the interpretations completely unencumbered by prejudices which might otherwise influence my assessment of the performance.
A couple weeks ago I caught the finale of no. 25 - unknown performers - and was intrigued by the interpretation. Not bad, with a lively pianist and good accompaniment, but missing some of the flexibility I prefer in my Mozart, principally due the pianist's habit of preferring energy and forward momentum over rumination and color. The pianist turned out to be Argerich. While I adore Argerich in other repertoire this is the second time I've heard her in a Mozart PC (or part of one anyway) and felt somewhat disengaged. She's extremely good, but her Mozart will never be my daily bread.
Then came this past Wednesday night. Parked the car and lo and behold on came the finale of no. 22. Pianist and orchestra unknown. Listened a bit and had difficulty determining whether I liked what I was hearing. Interesting, but was it energetic enough? Perhaps Argerich had the right idea after all.
Sticking with it, I began to notice that while this pianist was something of the anti-Argerich, he/she definitely had a battle plan as to the solo part. What I began to notice was an emphasis on color, subtlety, nuance, and something amounting to, well, "perfect timing". IOW, there was a confidence to the playing which seemed to catch every Mozartian "knuckle-busting twist" and "off-balance turn" in perfect stride, while the mystery soloist never let his/her guard down for a moment as far as keeping alive the all important Mozartian symmetry (balance, balance, balance). The whole of the movement pulled together tightly as a result of the concentrated emphasis on the subtly whereas sometimes the opposite can occur, with damage being done from undue focus on the minutia. But not here. Timing. These folks have it. And it was mesmerizing.
So...then it all ended. The moment of truth had arrived - who were the performers? My heart stopped...
Schiff/Vegh.
Whaddya know! My old standbys. Good to know after all these years they still pack a wallop!
Great story!! I enjoy listening to things blind like that.
Quote from: ukrneal on December 16, 2010, 11:31:28 PM
Great story!! I enjoy listening to things blind like that.
Yep! Sure has helped me to overcome some stupid prejudices and to get fired up about recordings I never would have ventured to try otherwise. And the Schiff/Vegh Mozart PCs Don recommended years ago still top my list for most consistently satisfying cycle. In fact, I think I'll throw on #20 right now!
I've been enjoying Edwin Fischer's 2 volumes of Mozart on Pearl. Man, did he have a lovely tone.
I'm not a huge fan of these works (outside of Lortie), but I just heard the Jarrett today (No. 9,17, and 20), and was fairly impressed with it. It was done on the ECM label so the sound is just stunning, easily the best part of the recording, but the music was also played handily.
These days I have been considering to add some "new" Mozart piano concertos to my collection.
I currently have complete sets of Bilson/Gardiner (PI) and Uchida/Tate, several Brendel/Marriner (those Philips Twoffer) and also many single recordings. That said, I have discarded my natural first option (Sofronitsky/Warsaw Chamber Opera Orchestra) because I generally don't enjoy their tempi and the orchestra sound too much harsh and unrefined to my taste.
Well, I have been considering two options: András Schiff and Murray Perahia. Usually I would prefer Schiff, but listening to some samples I have had some problems with Vegh's direction and the sound of the Camerata Academica des Mozarteums Salzburg, also a bit crude IMO.
On the other hand, the ECO sound rather crystalline in these ears, although Perahia can be a bit too much sweet... but after all is Perahia (I have just one disc of his cycle and it's fine and apparently the complete collection was successfully remastered).
I will be interested in your opinions.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lYxv2Ig7L._SS350_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J8pWF1xVL._SS350_.jpg)
:)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Have you considered this one, Antoine? I think it's excellent. Less sweet than Perahia.
Quote from: George on December 17, 2010, 08:35:17 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartBarenboim/1128426116_aBzgV-O.jpg)
Have you considered this one, Antoine? I think it's excellent. Less sweet than Perahia.
Antoine - I assumed that you owned the Viviana set on fortepiano? :-\
I'd agree w/
George on Anda (was my first full set of these works); I also own the Schiff box, and despite Vegh being the conductor in both sets, Anda seems a little more dreamy & romantic in these works (some would call saccahrine - not a problem w/ me, though) than Schiff, so I guess that you would have to compare some tracks to see which performer might be your preference? But hard to beat Vegh in either of these boxes.
Now the other day, the Barenboim box arrived - listened to the first 3 discs yesterday (and will continue this weekend) - I was really impressed - the comments made by others on the previous page or so of this thread were spot on - this makes my 5th box of these works and all are different!
Good luck in your choice(s) - Dave :)
Quote from: George on December 17, 2010, 08:35:17 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BOB75ULwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Have you considered this one, Antoine? I think it's excellent. Less sweet than Perahia.
That set has been in my cart for a long time,
George. But for some reason I had forgotten it now. Thanks for the reminder! :)
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 09:02:13 AM
Now the other day, the Barenboim box arrived - listened to the first 3 discs yesterday (and will continue this weekend) - I was really impressed - the comments made by others on the previous page or so of this thread were spot on - this makes my 5th box of these works and all are different!
Glad you like it. ;) BTW, there is a live concerto No. 22 with 'Boimz and the CSO from his last two weeks as CSO music director which can be heard streaming live online through January + a slow movement from one of the piano sonatas as an encore (+ Bruckner 9) on the CSO website (http://cso.org/ListenAndWatch/Details.aspx?id=14114).
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 09:02:13 AM
Antoine - I assumed that you owned the Viviana set on fortepiano? :-\
No, really not, Dave; I listened to a lot of samples, but decided that it was not my cup of tea.
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 09:02:13 AM
... agree w/ George on Anda (was my first full set of these works); I also own the Schiff box, and despite Vegh being the conductor in both sets, Anda seems a little more dreamy & romantic in these works (some would call saccahrine - not a problem w/ me, though) than Schiff..., so I guess that you would have to compare some tracks to see which performer might be your preference? But hard to beat Vegh in either of these boxes.
Thanks! It's a very useful comment and certainly Anda looks very attractive on the basis of that comparison. :)
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 09:02:13 AM
...and despite Vegh being the conductor in both sets...
Actually Vegh isn't the conductor in both sets. It's Anda who directs from the keyboard in his set.
If romanticism is favored, I suppose Anda might fit the bill. I once had that set (on CD) but cooled on it after time and have since sold it (still have one LP, though).
There's something to be said for taking the ruminative route in Mozart. But "ruminative" isn't - emphatically ISN'T - a dirty word! It all depends on what a performer does with it. Infused with all the attributes I listed above from Schiff/Vegh the results can mesmerize. It all depends I suppose on what one is looking for in a performance. Yes, I enjoy being slapped out of my comfy chair by a technically-whiz-bang extrovert performance as much as the next guy. But on the
whole I prefer to be drawn
in to a performance. Not as easy as it sounds, I assure you.
All the attributes I listed above from Schiff/Vegh give me the experience of being taken by the hand and guided deep into the music. The attendant results read something like: ENCOUNTER WITH THE MUSIC!! Yes, as I said, there is more than one way to musical nirvana but in Mozart if there's nothing more than a techno-show on display I end up in snooze land.
Give me color, nuance, shading, subtlety, flexibility, and of course, rhythmic snappiness in my Mozart or don't bother showing up.
To
urkneal and
Dave: thanks!
To
Antoine: I'm not sure what the Schiff/Vegh clips are telling you but I would think after reading my description of Schiff/Vegh "crude" would be the very
last way to describe them.
Anyway, good luck!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2010, 09:47:42 AMThere's something to be said for taking the ruminative route in Mozart. But "ruminative" isn't - emphatically ISN'T - a dirty word! It all depends on what a performer does with it.
For ruminative Mozart I think Barenboim/Berline takes the cake, both for the extent indulged and for the level of success. (And the orchestra sounds so good!)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 17, 2010, 08:27:01 AM
These days I have been considering to add some "new" Mozart piano concertos to my collection. ...
You've already got one quite good set with the Bilson. Why do you wan't another?
If I want to "add some "new" Mozart piano concertos to [your] collection. " why not try individual concertos played in styles which contrast markedly with two existing surveys? Pletnev for example; or Bezuidenhout. Or Richter. Or Schnabel.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 17, 2010, 09:58:32 AM
You've already got one quite good set with the Bilson. Why do you wan't another?
If I want to "add some "new" Mozart piano concertos to [your] collection. " why not try individual concertos played in styles which contrast markedly with two existing surveys? Pletnev for example; or Bezuidenhout. Or Richter. Or Schnabel.
Well, it is simply what I want.
I want a complete survey played by one pianist, to search certain unity of concepts.
Additionaly, as I said before, I have a lot of individual and contrasting recordings of these concertos, but this time I would like a new complete set... that's all. :)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
To Antoine: I'm not sure what the Schiff/Vegh clips are telling you but I would think after reading my description of Schiff/Vegh "crude" would be the very last way to describe them.
Anyway, good luck!
Thanks, sometimes samples are a terrible reference; but at the moment they are the only way that I have. :)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 17, 2010, 08:27:01 AM
[...] I have discarded my natural first option (Sofronitsky/Warsaw Chamber Opera Orchestra) because I generally don't enjoy their tempi and the orchestra sound too much harsh and unrefined to my taste.
Most interesting comment! :) Because it seems to confirm my impressions of sampling the set - reason why I decided
not* to get it. What would seem a primary attraction for many is the "equality" in the balance between the fortepiano and the ochestra, or should I say: the
prominence of the fortepiano?
*crucial word corrrected!
Q
Quote from: Que on December 17, 2010, 01:05:35 PM
Most interesting comment! :) Because it seems to confirm my impressions of sampling the set - reason why I decided to to get it. What would seem a primary attraction for many is the "equality" in the balance between the fortepiano and the ochestra, or should I say: the prominence of the fortepiano?
Q
I would agree with that, although I am ambivalent about the set myself. I prefer Bilson AND Immerseel, although my complaints are non-specific, just based on how I personally react to them. I never complained about Bilson / Gardiner to start with, so I spent a lot of $$$ just to discover that I was right in the first place... :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2010, 01:29:26 PM
I would agree with that, although I am ambivalent about the set myself. I prefer Bilson AND Immerseel, although my complaints are non-specific, just based on how I personally react to them. I never complained about Bilson / Gardiner to start with, so I spent a lot of $$$ just to discover that I was right in the first place... :)
8)
I remain convinced that, for instance, Immerseel's conception of the fortepiano as part of the orchestra - be it the most important instrument that plays the main solos - is sound.
Q
Quote from: Que on December 17, 2010, 01:37:00 PM
I remain convinced that, for instance, Immerseel's conception of the fortepiano as part of the orchestra - be it the most important instrument that plays the main solos - is sound.
Q
I have seven discs of the Immerseel set. I consider them excellent, but I must confess that I have frequently failed to obtain a real emotional connection with those interpretations, especially in those wonderful slow movements. Probably my fault because Immerseel is an excellent fortepianist and I share his vision of these works... Maybe more hours of careful listening would be the response, but I need to dedicate some hours to live. ;D
On the other hand, every day I am more hooked by Bilson and Gardiner, particularly the first one. What a great keyboardist is Bilson! :)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
Actually Vegh isn't the conductor in both sets. It's Anda who directs from the keyboard in his set.
DD - thanks for the above clarification - :-[ I was in my office @ lunch time and was unable to check my 'boxes' - same orchestra at different times - that Anda performance of the PC #21 in the film
Elvira Madigan (1967) started my increased exploration of classical music - 'future' wife & I saw the film on a date in 1968! Dave :)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 17, 2010, 03:00:32 PM
On the other hand, every day I am more hooked by Bilson and Gardiner, particularly the first one. What a great keyboardist is Bilson! :)
I am so pleased to see someone finally say that. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person around who really thought that he is a premier keyboardist! :)
8)
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 03:13:16 PM
.... 'future' wife & I saw the film on a date in 1968! Dave :)
Of course. Who else would you see a 'chick flick' like that with? :D
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2010, 03:44:32 PM
Of course. Who else would you see a 'chick flick' like that with? :D
Yeh
Gurn - poor film but loved the music! ;D Enjoy the Bilson but just have to UP to volume - Dave :)
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 04:54:15 PM
Yeh Gurn - poor film but loved the music! ;D Enjoy the Bilson but just have to UP to volume - Dave :)
2 small prices to pay: movie for Susan --- volume adjustment for Bilson. 0:)
8)
Quote from: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 09:52:11 AM
For ruminative Mozart I think Barenboim/Berline takes the cake, both for the extent indulged and for the level of success. (And the orchestra sounds so good!)
One thing's for certain: no single interpretive approach seems to satisfy
everyone in this repertoire.
And how interesting to read of others' preferences! For instance, my infatuation for both Anda and Bilson/Gardiner came and went - but others can't get enough! Quite amazing.
I will say that my Mozart PC situation definitely evolved over time. It was a process. And I don't feel the least bit slighted with my choices. Not to mention it makes me feel quite validated being able to hear my perennial faves blind and come away totally awed (as I related above). So I KNOW I have a winner in my Schiff/Vegh choice.
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 03:13:16 PM
DD - thanks for the above clarification - :-[ I was in my office @ lunch time and was unable to check my 'boxes' - same orchestra at different times...
:) I guess we wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for the guy who actually
wrote the music! ;D
Quote- that Anda performance of the PC #21 in the film Elvira Madigan (1967) started my increased exploration of classical music - 'future' wife & I saw the film on a date in 1968! Dave :)
This may be the first I've ever heard of anyone actually SEEING that movie. What'dya think of it?
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2010, 09:40:42 PM
This may be the first I've ever heard of anyone actually SEEING that movie. What'dya think of it?
I saw it a few years after Dave, in 1970, at an army theater on a base close to the DMZ in Korea. I was stationed on the DMZ. My girlfriend lived across the Imjin River. We took a taxi to the theater. (Those taxi rides, in seemingly indestructible Toyotas, speeding along bumpy dirt roads, fording rivers, playing chicken with other traffic, was more dangerous, and more thrilling than facing the North Koreans ;D ) I liked the film then but would probably be bored with it today even though I'm still rather infatuated with Anne Mette Michaelsen:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Elvira-Madigan-Clubul-Cinefililor.jpg)
Although beautifully shot, with haunting music (the 21st), the film moved slowly, Mozart replacing dialogue in many scenes (one can only hear the famous theme so many times before it becomes grating).
Not knowing the historical events behind the film, the end came as quite a shock. Kil Cha and I had a debate afterwards: through tears (the film had moved her deeply) she defended their actions as the only logical conclusion to the affair. She admired their romantic courage. That kind of "romantic" gesture was simply beyond my comprehension. Still is.
Sarge
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2010, 09:40:42 PM
:) I guess we wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for the guy who actually wrote the music! ;D
This may be the first I've ever heard of anyone actually SEEING that movie. What'dya think of it?
DD - just getting back online - believe that
Sarge has already provided an excellent synopsis - years later, I started to watch the film (either on TV or a VHS rental?) and turned it off - some pictures seem to be just made for the moment. Susan & I were in Ann Arbor at the U. of Michigan - there was a downtown 'foreign films' theater which we attended often - just the THING to do in that town and in the late 60s - :D Dave
Quote from: DarkAngel on August 01, 2010, 10:08:14 AM
The reason Schiff would naturally be compared to Anda is that same orchestral group is used directed by Sandor Vegh for Schiff many years later. I must give Anda the edge however since his performance sounds more fluid and spontaneous to me, he makes the music dance and sparkle compared to Schiff who seems slightly reserved by comparison and more cautious although technically sound.
One might ask if the was any orchestra member of the Anda Mozarteum lefy by Schiff's time.
I would say the orchestra as conducted by Vegh is much much better than in the earlier recording.
And I prefer Anda's playing, too.
Sarge, Sonic...
Thanks for the replies. Interesting reading all around! :)
The reoccurring 'theme' sounds similar to Wagner's leitmotif...but if no variation...??
Katchen's naturally colorful tone seems tailor-made for Mozart's brightly lit orchestrations (nos. 20 and 25).
Münchinger is keen to follow suit, drawing a cascade of colors from the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra.
But it's not "all color, no bite". The music is propelled by a fine sense of rhythm and attack.
Mesmerizing!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IscoTyQ9L._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2010, 04:34:44 AM
I liked the film then but would probably be bored with it today even though I'm still rather infatuated with Anne Mette Michaelsen:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Elvira-Madigan-Clubul-Cinefililor.jpg)
What's that guy doing, if I may ask? Looks like he's checking whether the equipment is ready for the big move.
Quote from: SonicMan on December 17, 2010, 03:13:16 PM
DD - thanks for the above clarification - :-[ I was in my office @ lunch time and was unable to check my 'boxes' - same orchestra at different times - that Anda performance of the PC #21 in the film Elvira Madigan (1967) started my increased exploration of classical music - 'future' wife & I saw the film on a date in 1968! Dave :)
The still and discussion re. this film piqued my interest. Apparently the star, teenaged Pia Degermark, was the Lindsay Lohan of her time:
QuoteDirector Bo Widerberg first spotted the teenage Pia Degermark in a newspaper photo, dancing at a party with with the Swedish Crown Prince Carl Gustaf. He career seemed assured after he cast her as the lead in Elvira Madigan (1967/I), which debuted at Cannes and garnered critical and commercial acclaim. Degermark was heralded as the "new Ingrid Bergman" and offers came flooding in. However, in 1971 she married the producer Pier A. Caminnecci (in whose film Gebissen wird nur nachts (1971) she appeared). The marriage produced a son, Cesare, but ended two years later. Degermark then emigrated to the USA, but returned to her native Sweden in 1979, by now gravely ill and suffering from anorexia. Her acting career now over, she founded the organisation 'Alfta', devoted to the aid of other women suffering from the disease. She was eventually taken to court, accused of false claims and the organisation collapsed. It was at this time that Degermark became homeless and addicted to drugs - an addiction that led her to use fraudulent cheques in her desperation for money, and she was eventually committed to Stockholm's state prison. http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f95/pia-degermark-69102.html
I don't suggest box-set.
One-by-one collecting would make you more happy.
In my opinion, Clara Haskil, Geza Anda and Rudolf Serkin's recoridngs are good choice for Mozart's piano concertos.
Quote from: seasons on February 13, 2011, 10:34:59 PM
I don't suggest box-set.
One-by-one collecting would make you more happy.
In my opinion, Clara Haskil, Geza Anda and Rudolf Serkin's recoridngs are good choice for Mozart's piano concertos.
And Robert Casadesus & Ivan Moravec? :) Oh, and on fortepiano Andreas Staier.
Anda's box set is worthwhile BTW, and some on period instruments - my favourite is Immerseel.
Q
Quote from: Que on February 13, 2011, 10:41:39 PM
And Robert Casadesus ...
... will be reissued by Sony in March, or so it seems. Though hmv.co.jp lists it as 5 CD set opposed to 2x3 CDs from French Sony last time around, so not sure if all material will be included. It's listed also on amazons and jpc.de as pre-order, but with no info whatsoever.
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3994123
Quote from: Drasko on February 14, 2011, 12:48:22 AM
... will be reissued by Sony in March, or so it seems. Though hmv.co.jp lists it as 5 CD set opposed to 2x3 CDs from French Sony last time around, so not sure if all material will be included. It's listed also on amazons and jpc.de as pre-order, but with no info whatsoever.
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3994123
This is very good news. I have a number of these recordings already and very much enjoy them.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2010, 04:34:44 AM
I saw it a few years after Dave, in 1970, at an army theater on a base close to the DMZ in Korea. I was stationed on the DMZ. My girlfriend lived across the Imjin River. We took a taxi to the theater. (Those taxi rides, in seemingly indestructible Toyotas, speeding along bumpy dirt roads, fording rivers, playing chicken with other traffic, was more dangerous, and more thrilling than facing the North Koreans ;D ) I liked the film then but would probably be bored with it today even though I'm still rather infatuated with Anne Mette Michaelsen:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Elvira-Madigan-Clubul-Cinefililor.jpg)
Although beautifully shot, with haunting music (the 21st), the film moved slowly, Mozart replacing dialogue in many scenes (one can only hear the famous theme so many times before it becomes grating).
Not knowing the historical events behind the film, the end came as quite a shock. Kil Cha and I had a debate afterwards: through tears (the film had moved her deeply) she defended their actions as the only logical conclusion to the affair. She admired their romantic courage. That kind of "romantic" gesture was simply beyond my comprehension. Still is.
Sarge
I have this CD and the VHS tape of the movie ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BAM1KE5RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
IIRC, movements from Piano Concerto No. 21 were used in one of the James Bond movie as well ...
Listening to this:
Concerto for Piano no 21 in C major, K 467
Performer: Rudolf Serkin (Piano)
Conductor: Schneider
Orchestra/Ensemble: Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Written: 1785; Vienna, Austria
Mono recording, 1955
from this set:
It also has No. 25 and other goodies. Couple it with this disc:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Qd2qyUUyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Add this disc:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e8/14/d28f828fd7a0c241aa8c7110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and you have some fantastic listening, IMO. There must be some other Serkin mono recordings of Mozart PC's that I need to track down.
That performance of K.488 (I have it on LP) is indeed one of the most transcendent of all Mozart recordings, particularly in the slow movement. I wish I could play it now - but my LPs and record player are elsewhere :(
Robert Levin never got to record KV 467 in his incomplete cycle with Hogwood. This is from the broadcast recording of his live performance with OAE from a few years ago. The andante movement.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Q4FZrsOCDDs
Quote from: mjwal on February 16, 2011, 04:56:09 AM
That performance of K.488 (I have it on LP) is indeed one of the most transcendent of all Mozart recordings, particularly in the slow movement. I wish I could play it now - but my LPs and record player are elsewhere :(
Well Josef Stalin wouldn't agree. Maria Yudina's record of K488 is the one that was found on Stalin's phonograph when he died. He had called the radio station where he heard it and asked for a copy. I will choose that one too, if I have the chance -- fast, sensitive, rhythmic and no swooning, coherent, beautifully voiced, full of fine internal details, strong minded, unsentimental, almost brusque.
http://www.youtube.com/v/riRK7P_ynfc
Yudina had told off Stalin and the whole Composer's Union over their rejection of Shostakovich's Op. 87 preludes and fugues. That shows that Stalin didn;t always bear grudges ;)
I also like Pollini in this. And ABM. And Schnabel of course. Serkin/Schneider rather less than you
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2011, 11:13:53 PMWell Josef Stalin wouldn't agree. Maria Yudina's record of K488 is the one that was found on Stalin's phonograph when he died.
This is relevant how?
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2011, 11:13:53 PM
Well Josef Stalin wouldn't agree. Maria Yudina's record of K488 is the one that was found on Stalin's phonograph when he died. He had called the radio station where he heard it and asked for a copy.
Probably he called and asked for Yudina to be sent to the Gulag but they misunderstood and sent the record.
Quote from: Todd on February 22, 2011, 06:33:23 AM
This is relevant how?
You expect relevance?
Quote from: Todd on February 22, 2011, 06:33:23 AM
This is relevant how?
Ah -- well I always imagine he knew he was about to die, and thought quite understandably "what's the most beautiful performance I can command to accompany my suffling off the mortal coil . . . "
If you've heard the Yudina's performance I'd love to know what you think of it.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2011, 11:13:53 PM
Maria Yudina's record of K488 is the one that was found on Stalin's phonograph when he died.
Darn! Wouldn't it be lovely if
Lady MacBeth of Mtsensk were on the player?
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2011, 08:29:07 AM
Ah -- well I always imagine he knew he was about to die, and thought quite understandably "what's the most beautiful performance I can command to accompany my suffling off the mortal coil . . . "
If you've heard the Yudina's performance I'd love to know what you think of it.
Yes, that part is not too difficult to grasp. Why the reference to Uncle Joe is what I was after. I'm not sure Stalin's musical taste is of any relevance.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2011, 08:29:07 AM
If you've heard the Yudina's performance I'd love to know what you think of it.
I am always fascinated, and delighted, to listen to Yudina. To enjoy her freedom, and courage, in taking the Mozart A major into such tempi – and the rush of the third movement is even more extreme. And yet she is able to make the music sound so articulate, so live and colorful, with an acute sense of phrasing and deep intensity. But this is not only apparent in the faster movements. In this famous recording I am always very impressed by the Adagio, where she is also unexpected - by taking a contrasting slow tempo and by modeling every phrase with a sense of hesitation, in a very softly spoken tone, that somehow conveys the music into its profound intimacy, in a beautiful mixing of despair and resignation.
Quote from: Todd on February 22, 2011, 06:33:23 AM
This is relevant how?
I don't know if the concluding episode of the Yudina-Stalin story is "relevant" enough. But at least it may be a small (but well deserved) homage to this wonderful and very courageous artist.
" ... This is the eminent pianist revered in Russia as a living saint; her outstanding musicianship earned the praise of Prokofiev and Shostakovich. A champion of modern music, she introduced works by Berg, Schoenberg, Messian and Stravinsky despite strict Soviet censorship. Converting to Christianity in her teens, she remained faithful to its precepts to the end of her life, ignoring the dangers this involved.
Her encounter with Stalin deserves telling in full. He had requested a record of a Mozart concerto he had heard her play on the radio. This did not exist but a recording was manufactured overnight and given to Stalin. Yudina later received an envelope with a large amount of money from Kremlin. Her reply to him, the greatest dictator on earth, was as follows: "I thank you for your aid. Twill pray for you day and night and ask the Lord to forgive your great sins before the people and the country...I gave the money to the church I attend." ... " in a letter from Mr. N S Jenkins - Gramophone
Quote from: ccar on February 22, 2011, 01:08:36 PM
I . . .
There was a discussion somewhere here about expression and speed. I was thinking at the time mostly of Yudina -- that concerto, her K310 and her extraordinary Tempest Sonata.
Have just been listening Pollini in this -- wonderful! There are some really magical moments in the first two movements. And so humane.
Well, it happened again. As I related a couple pages ago my local classical station has an infatuation with Mozart's PCs. No bad thing of course. The upside of this is it affords me ample opportunity to assess various performances sans biases since often I'm tuning in mid-performance and the performers are unknown.
This time it was the first movement of PC no. 27. Blind, I listened intently and after a minute or two took a liking to the performance. The pianist had a very big tone but kept tabs on it so as not to drown out the musical undercurrents. Good thing as Mozart without the all-important subtleties is parched stuff.
The orchestra never sounded bloated or harassing and slid into its role as musical protagonist with aplomb. This afforded the pianist plenty of space to maneuver with musical ideas seemingly bouncing all over the place, all of course within the comfy confines of Mozartian symmetry.
The movement ended but I hadn't the time to finish out the entire performance. But not forgetting the experience I later looked up the performers. I was surprised by their identities as I hadn't encountered them before in these or similar works: De Larrocha/Davis. Definitely worth exploring in the future.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b6/86/2da3923f8da04683a7b48010.L.jpg)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 28, 2011, 08:58:36 PM
The movement ended but I hadn't the time to finish out the entire performance. But not forgetting the experience I later looked up the performers. I was surprised by their identities as I hadn't encountered them before in these or similar works: De Larrocha/Davis. Definitely worth exploring in the future.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b6/86/2da3923f8da04683a7b48010.L.jpg)
She is very recommendable in Mozart and there are several discs. I've grown to love her interpretations so another endorsement here.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 28, 2011, 08:58:36 PM
The movement ended but I hadn't the time to finish out the entire performance. But not forgetting the experience I later looked up the performers. I was surprised by their identities as I hadn't encountered them before in these or similar works: De Larrocha/Davis. Definitely worth exploring in the future.
Colin Davis isn't always my cup of tea. However, early in his career, he put out some wonderful recordings of Rossini, Verdi and Mozart short pieces that came to the US on the budget Angel line, Seraphim (these preceded his Berlioz recordings for Philips). These LPs I still prize. His Mozart was light, fleet, full of humor and articulate phrasing, a real delight. Honestly, I haven't heard him much in this repertoire in the past couple of decades, though last week I did acquire a sorta newish Mozart overtures CD with him conducting Dresden, I think (haven't played the disc yet). So it doesn't surprise me that he shows his stuff when accompanying Ms. De Larrocha (whose Mozart too could be off-and-on, but utterly wonderful when "on").
Dirk
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 28, 2011, 09:26:48 PM
She is very recommendable in Mozart and there are several discs. I've grown to love her interpretations so another endorsement here.
Thanks, urkneal. That's good to know. I'll keep my eye out for some bargains.
Quote from: dirkronk on March 29, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
Colin Davis isn't always my cup of tea. However, early in his career, he put out some wonderful recordings of Rossini, Verdi and Mozart short pieces that came to the US on the budget Angel line, Seraphim (these preceded his Berlioz recordings for Philips). These LPs I still prize. His Mozart was light, fleet, full of humor and articulate phrasing, a real delight. Honestly, I haven't heard him much in this repertoire in the past couple of decades, though last week I did acquire a sorta newish Mozart overtures CD with him conducting Dresden, I think (haven't played the disc yet). So it doesn't surprise me that he shows his stuff when accompanying Ms. De Larrocha (whose Mozart too could be off-and-on, but utterly wonderful when "on").
Dirk
My reactions to both Davis and De Larrocha throughout the years have been similar. But one thing I've learned about Davis is he is capable of having "on" days in the studio that just floor me. Principally his Berlioz.
De Larrocha hasn't been on my radar for years now and until this Mozart PC encounter I've given her zero attention. Things are looking up for her now however on the strength of this performance.
You can sense sometimes that Colin Davis really believes in the music he's playing -- that's maybe what you mean by on days. The Berlioz -- Trojans and Benvenuto Cellini, certainly. But also Grimes. And there are things which are not on Cd which "floored" me - a Tristan years ago at Covent Garden for instance.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 29, 2011, 01:26:09 PM
You can sense sometimes that Colin Davis really believes in the music he's playing -- that's maybe what you mean by on days. The Berlioz -- Trojans and Benvenuto Cellini, certainly. But also Grimes. And there are things which are not on Cd which "floored" me - a Tristan years ago at Covent Garden for instance.
Yes, agreed. I hadn't thought about his Britten. Should check it out.
And speaking of Davis in Wagner, I have his recording of Lohengrin on RCA. Been years since I heard it. A fresh listen is in order to see if the "floor me" factor is in effect!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 29, 2011, 01:14:30 PM
De Larrocha hasn't been on my radar for years now and until this Mozart PC encounter I've given her zero attention. Things are looking up for her now however on the strength of this performance.
There are some areas of repertoire where De Larrocha is peerless. The Spanish piano composers in particular (Albeniz, Granados, Turina, de Falla, etc.) are simply astonishing in her hands...I particularly like her early Hispavox recordings, though her later versions for Decca and other labels are quite good, as well. The recent EMI Icon box set collects almost all those Hispavox recordings, BTW, and I've been toying with its purchase to replace my ancient VoxBox and other LP versions.
However, it would be silly to pigeonhole her in the Spanish realm. At the same time that Vox came out with her Hispavox items, several decades back, they also came out with a VoxBox (or two?) by her called "Piano Personalities" (or some such title) which included many mainly-short items of more central European piano repertoire, and quite impressive it was. While recording for Decca, she put out a number of fine recordings, and standouts (IMO) included an LP of Surinach and Montsalvage concertos, and a mixed album released as a kind of birthday or anniversary tribute that had a Mozart sonata and assorted other midstream goodies.
Over the later years of her career, she did Mozart a LOT, so I'm not surprised it was a Mozart concerto that captured your attention. At her very best here, she rivals (though, honestly, never truly surpasses) my typical choices for this music, Clara Haskil and Lili Kraus, and generally De Larrocha gets excellent modern recording, to boot. Worth serious listening, in short. However, she performed a great deal live, in settings like the Mostly Mozart festival venues, and while her playing is seldom less than very, VERY good, her accompanying orchestral groups vary in their quality of ensemble and finesse (some great, some not so great), so I'd try to listen in advance before plunking down big bucks for a bunch of her recordings of that type. Just sayin'...
Cheers.
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on March 30, 2011, 06:29:50 AM
There are some areas of repertoire where De Larrocha is peerless. The Spanish piano composers in particular (Albeniz, Granados, Turina, de Falla, etc.) are simply astonishing in her hands...I particularly like her early Hispavox recordings, though her later versions for Decca and other labels are quite good, as well. The recent EMI Icon box set collects almost all those Hispavox recordings, BTW, and I've been toying with its purchase to replace my ancient VoxBox and other LP versions.
However, it would be silly to pigeonhole her in the Spanish realm. At the same time that Vox came out with her Hispavox items, several decades back, they also came out with a VoxBox (or two?) by her called "Piano Personalities" (or some such title) which included many mainly-short items of more central European piano repertoire, and quite impressive it was. While recording for Decca, she put out a number of fine recordings, and standouts (IMO) included an LP of Surinach and Montsalvage concertos, and a mixed album released as a kind of birthday or anniversary tribute that had a Mozart sonata and assorted other midstream goodies.
Over the later years of her career, she did Mozart a LOT, so I'm not surprised it was a Mozart concerto that captured your attention. At her very best here, she rivals (though, honestly, never truly surpasses) my typical choices for this music, Clara Haskil and Lili Kraus, and generally De Larrocha gets excellent modern recording, to boot. Worth serious listening, in short. However, she performed a great deal live, in settings like the Mostly Mozart festival venues, and while her playing is seldom less than very, VERY good, her accompanying orchestral groups vary in their quality of ensemble and finesse (some great, some not so great), so I'd try to listen in advance before plunking down big bucks for a bunch of her recordings of that type. Just sayin'...
Cheers.
Dirk
Let me just pose this conundrum -- which are the best transfers of those Hospavox recordings?
All the world love Larrocha's Albeniz except me it seems -- to my ears she makes the music sound to banally picturesque. Don't get me wrong -- I like Iberia in the hands of others.
But so deafening is the praise for her that I suspect that I've just not heard her at her best. And the consensus is that those Hispavox recordings are her best. Hence my question.
You see if I read through old discussions on rmcr, I just can't work out which CDs are the Hispovox ones.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
All the world love Larrocha's Albeniz except me it seems -- to my ears she makes the music sound to banally picturesque.
At least that's easy to remedy - just get yourself new pair of ears.
QuoteBut so deafening is the praise for her that I suspect that I've just not heard her at her best. And the consensus is that those Hispavox recordings are her best. Hence my question.
In Hispavox period her emphasis seems to be (to me) on rhythm, articulation is pointier, playing drier. In Decca recordings emphasis is more on harmony and color, her touch is softer, textures richer more impressionistic. it's worth hearing both. I'm not very familiar with her RCA period recordings.
Latest EMI Icon release is probably best mastering for hispavox recordings.
I first became aware of Laroccha thanks to a terrific Mozart concerto recording I heard on the car radio (I forget which one...it was many years ago). Her Decca (London) Albéniz Iberia/Suite Española/Navarra is among my favorite piano recordings.
When I see vids of her playing, I'm always amazed that anyone with such stubby fingers can become such a gifted pianist. Just sayin'.
Quote from: Drasko on March 30, 2011, 07:51:41 AM
At least that's easy to remedy - just get yourself new pair of ears.
Thank you for that kind advice.
Quote from: Drasko on March 30, 2011, 07:51:41 AM
Latest EMI Icon release is probably best mastering for hispavox recordings.
Are you absolutely sure that the Icon box has her Hispavox?
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
Let me just pose this conundrum -- which are the best transfers of those Hospavox recordings?
Sorry, Mandryka. Don't know. I have only LP copies, on Vox pressings (which don't inspire expectations of great sonics anyway--but based on reactions of others, I may be enjoying some mitigation of the dryness they refer to). Meanwhile, I'm looking for more confidence-building input re the Icon box transfers myself, before deciding to purchase.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
All the world love Larrocha's Albeniz except me it seems -- to my ears she makes the music sound to banally picturesque. Don't get me wrong -- I like Iberia in the hands of others.
Sounds to me like you just don't like her approach, period, and are looking for something different (non-picturesque?) in the interp you want. Hey, it happens. I'm certainly that way about Arrau: love much of his work from early in his career (pre-mid-1960s) and like very little in his later career, save live performances. And, as you say, "all the world loves" Arrau's Beethoven sonata cycle from the mid-60s, especially his Waldstein, while I'm just tepid on the cycle as a whole (I do like some individual sonatas therein) and CAN NOT STAND his Waldstein. Go figure.
Getting back to De Larrocha, I do agree that her Hispavox take is picturesque, but I rather expect that in the Albeniz and similar music...and for me, it doesn't rate the "banal" modifier. I listen and it just sounds right to me (and has for 30-some-odd years, so I guess my taste isn't changing much). I definitely agree with Drasko about her Decca recordings of these works being worth the listen; I've heard only snippets from the later RCA stuff and am rather less enthusiastic with her presentation there (but need to hear more to give a thumbs up or down).
FWIW. Hopefully, we'll find someone here who's heard the Icon box and can give an analysis.
Cheers,
Dirk
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 09:34:36 AM
Thank you for that kind advice.
Glad I could help. 8)
Quote
Are you absolutely sure that the Icon box has her Hispavox?
http://www.emiclassics.com/releaseabout.php?rid=49968
Quote from: dirkronk on March 30, 2011, 09:45:26 AM
Sorry, Mandryka. Don't know. I have only LP copies, on Vox pressings (which don't inspire expectations of great sonics anyway--but based on reactions of others, I may be enjoying some mitigation of the dryness they refer to). Meanwhile, I'm looking for more confidence-building input re the Icon box transfers myself, before deciding to purchase.
Sounds to me like you just don't like her approach, period, and are looking for something different (non-picturesque?) in the interp you want. Hey, it happens. I'm certainly that way about Arrau: love much of his work from early in his career (pre-mid-1960s) and like very little in his later career, save live performances. And, as you say, "all the world loves" Arrau's Beethoven sonata cycle from the mid-60s, especially his Waldstein, while I'm just tepid on the cycle as a whole (I do like some individual sonatas therein) and CAN NOT STAND his Waldstein. Go figure.
Getting back to De Larrocha, I do agree that her Hispavox take is picturesque, but I rather expect that in the Albeniz and similar music...and for me, it doesn't rate the "banal" modifier. I listen and it just sounds right to me (and has for 30-some-odd years, so I guess my taste isn't changing much). I definitely agree with Drasko about her Decca recordings of these works being worth the listen; I've heard only snippets from the later RCA stuff and am rather less enthusiastic with her presentation there (but need to hear more to give a thumbs up or down).
FWIW. Hopefully, we'll find someone here who's heard the Icon box and can give an analysis.
Cheers,
Dirk
Ok. Delete banal.
When the music gets very complicated in Iberia -- like in El Albaicin -- I do much prefer others: Orozco mostly, who make the music sound more exciting and interesting to me. The person who I am keen to hear in Iberia is Loriod, but the CD has never turned up. I love this music.
Have you heard Arrau's earlier Waldsteins? They're the ones I don't like! There's an EMI one and a Columbia one. The Philips one is, for me, very good for the first movement climax.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 10:17:55 AM
When the music gets very complicated in Iberia -- like in El Albaicin -- I do much prefer others: Orozco mostly, who make the music sound more exciting and interesting to me. The person who I am keen to hear in Iberia is Loriod, but the CD has never turned up. I love this music.
I'm making note of these names. Actually, Orozco I know, but only very slightly and not in this music, so I need to investigate. Loriod I don't recall hearing at all. Time to do some exploring, apparently.
As for Arrau's other Waldsteins, I have the EMI, heard the Columbia years back. Meh. I know they're different, but I'm not any crazier about them than I am about the Philips mid-60s version (which is the one that gets praised so much). I've bought and re-bought that particular recording (the Philips) at least three times on vinyl and once on CD, always at the urgent recommendation of Arrau fans who assure me that "this time you'll hear what's great about it." Hasn't happened yet. Part of the problem is what I listen for: line-for-line articulation of phrasing (which Arrau USUALLY is great at, but not to my ears here; if this were ALL I were going for, Elly Ney rules...but she's too old in her version to hold the whole thing together), intelligent and smoothly-executed segues (Solomon is so far ahead of Arrau in this respect that I have a hard time even listening to Claudio), and, where the pianist really has the chops, the full "all one piece" linearity carried through the sonata (again, Solomon's my fave for this aspect, but there are others I like as well: Tomsic, Gilels live, et al.). Guess I'm just not cut out to be an Arrau-uber-alles type.
On the other hand, his concert stuff is almost always special. His live Liszt Transcendental Etudes...extraordinary.
Cheers,
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on March 31, 2011, 07:15:44 AM
On the other hand, his concert stuff is almost always special. His live Liszt Transcendental Etudes...extraordinary.
Cheers,
Dirk
I haven't heard the live TEs -- what is the recording?
One live Arrau I enjoyed a lot recently was his Beethoven Op 27/1.
I'll listen to Elly Ney's Waldstien again -- I have it. I like her pre war recordings. I found her Trout recenly in an excellent amateur transfer here -
http://78.kenyszer.com
Worth getting, even though it's not my favourite Trout, it is noble and very German. Strub is very good indeed.
The website works but you need to be patient and forgiving :)
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 30, 2011, 08:05:32 AM
When I see vids of her playing, I'm always amazed that anyone with such stubby fingers can become such a gifted pianist. Just sayin'.
Yes. I saw her live some time around 1997 perhaps and she played among other things a stupendous performance of the Bach/Busoni Chaconne with incredibly huge sound from someone so small and old at that time.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 31, 2011, 07:36:54 AM
I haven't heard the live TEs -- what is the recording?
Not sure. My copy is on CD-r given to me as a gift but without specific attributions. I THINK it's the one that was on APR, but not sure.
Re Elly Ney. Thanks for the link: I'll try to check it out this weekend. I have her with Strub doing some Reger, but not the Trout. Oddly enough, while I have several discs of prewar performances, it's her late recordings that I find intriguing. There are some instances of phrasing in her mid/late '50s Waldstein that are so beautifully and delicately done (and she's not really known for the delicacy thing) that they literally make me catch my breath. OTOH, as I mentioned, this Waldstein is just too fragmented to hold together as an entirety. Pity.
Have you ever listened to her Wanderer Fantasy (the late one, not the 1941 version)? That one DOES hold together, and in an exceptional way.
Cheers,
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on March 30, 2011, 06:29:50 AM
Over the later years of her career, she did Mozart a LOT, so I'm not surprised it was a Mozart concerto that captured your attention. At her very best here, she rivals (though, honestly, never truly surpasses) my typical choices for this music, Clara Haskil and Lili Kraus, and generally De Larrocha gets excellent modern recording, to boot. Worth serious listening, in short.
Yes, I seem to remember a spate of Mozart recordings for RCA about fifteen years ago or so. But I hope I could be forgiven for not taking notice of these recordings since the choices in this repertoire are bewildering. But one of the great things about this biz of classical collecting is the opportunity to discover something new, even if it's old!
I wish I could say more as far as comparisons but since I've only heard the one movement from that Mozart concerto one time I'm not in a position to offer anything substantial. But based on that sampling I'd say De Larrocha prefers a tone that's more muscular than either Kraus or Haskil. That's not to be taken as a slam, mind you, just an observation. It would be interesting to do some A/B comparisons.
QuoteHowever, she performed a great deal live, in settings like the Mostly Mozart festival venues, and while her playing is seldom less than very, VERY good, her accompanying orchestral groups vary in their quality of ensemble and finesse (some great, some not so great), so I'd try to listen in advance before plunking down big bucks for a bunch of her recordings of that type. Just sayin'...
Noted. Thanks. :)
Saw Alicia de Larrocha perform a Mozart Piano Concerto in Ottawa, at the National Arts Centre, around 1970. Lucky me.
I'm bumping this because having arrived in France for a late summer I picked up - as usual - a copy of Diapason, the record magazine: this double issue (next one in September) includes a 2 CD collection of historical performances of Mozart piano concertos. It contains some very remarkable goodies: 1) K 365 Anda/Haskil, Philharmonia/Galliera 1956 (stereo); K 488 Curzon/Boyd Neel Orch. 1945; K 503 Edwin Fischer/VPO 1946 (live) 2) K459 Haskil/RIAS/Fricsay 1953; K 451 Serkin/NYPO/Mitropoulos 1955; K 466 Serkin/Philadelphia/Ormandy 1951.
I already have the contents of the second disc -- all wonderful, especially a Dionysiac performance of K 466 which Serkin could not match with Szell in 1960(?), and especially the Serkin/Mitropoulos sounds better than the transfer on the disc in my collection -- but the first disc was new to me: K 365 truly moved and impressed me for perhaps the first time, despite Lupu/Perahia: the stereo sound allows us to clearly distinguish and appreciate the different voices of the pianos, played in subtly interactive harmony but with striking individual character by Anda and Haskil -- Curzon's first K 488 is livelier than the later two he recorded, and the Fischer K 503 is overwhelmingly powerful yet richly nuanced. I had at first glance taken it for the 1948 HMV recording with Philharmonia/Krips, but this is a live performance with the VPO conducted from the keyboard, and at the moment I cannot think of any performance with quite the passionate majesty of this. He sometimes plays forcefully along with the orchestra. The July/Aug issue may now be unavailable, but one can order the Indispensables de Diapason from their website for 5 € a go, I believe.
Listening to PC 23 again I felt more positive about Serkin Schneider than I did before.
It struck me that there are quite a few very distinctive performances. Giulini and Michelangeli are noble, and Michelangeli's piano tone is everything you would expect. But maybe it lacks angst, and so maybe is a bit shallow. I don't know. It's the angst that Schnabel and Rodzinski showed was there in the music, if you know how to bring it out. That record seems pretty iconic to me, for that reason.
The mono Serkin one with Schneider is interesting because it seemed to capture something of both these extremes -- but when I listened to it again last night I thought there was something about Serkin's rubato which irritated me.
There are some othes I want to hear again -- Howowitz and Giulini, Rubinstein and Wallenstein , the DG one that Michelangeli recorded, maybe Moravec (which is the best from him?), Sokolov and Pinnock, maybe Lili Kraus. Maybe Pletnev. Maybe Fazil Say. Is there anyone else who you felt was doing something special with the music?
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2011, 01:31:38 AM
It struck me that there are quite a few very distinctive performances. Giulini and Michelangeli are noble, and Michelangeli's piano tone is everything you would expect. But maybe it lacks angst, and so maybe is a bit shallow. I don't know.
Michelangeli's K488 doesn't work for me either. Too static, particularly in slow movement. Though I don't have the Giulini one but EMI mid 50s with some scrappy Italian band.
QuoteThere are some othes I want to hear again -- Howowitz and Giulini, Rubinstein and Wallenstein , the DG one that Michelangeli recorded, maybe Moravec (which is the best from him?), Sokolov and Pinnock, maybe Lili Kraus. Maybe Pletnev. Maybe Fazil Say. Is there anyone else who you felt was doing something special with the music?
Horowitz is very fine, Sokolov has lovely middle movement but can't remember much about it otherwise. Casadesus with Szell has always been my favorite.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2011, 01:31:38 AM
There are some othes I want to hear again -- Howowitz and Giulini, Rubinstein and Wallenstein , the DG one that Michelangeli recorded, maybe Moravec (which is the best from him?), Sokolov and Pinnock, maybe Lili Kraus. Maybe Pletnev. Maybe Fazil Say. Is there anyone else who you felt was doing something special with the music?
Clara Haskil.
Quote from: Drasko on September 28, 2011, 05:32:49 AM
Horowitz is very fine, Sokolov has lovely middle movement but can't remember much about it otherwise. Casadesus with Szell has always been my favorite.
Haven't heard Sokolov, but I definitely agree on Horowitz and Casadesus. Szell's late Mozart concertos with Casadesus, Serkin, and Fleisher have been living on my iPod for ages, very hard to beat IMO.
Quote from: jwinter on September 28, 2011, 06:06:29 AM
Szell's late Mozart concertos with Casadesus, Serkin, and Fleisher have been living on my iPod for ages, very hard to beat IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMRo5XCKddQ
I set out when I was a wee high school student to buy the late piano concerti by Wolfgang.
However, while in Charlotte I spied this set for $27 (I think?) and just went with that:
(http://s18.postimage.org/3n22cco61/Barenboim_Moz_Conc.jpg)
My set was on Angel, not EMI, however - same cover - and the pressings on this particular set of Angel LP's
sounded like they had been made by Estonian trafficed girls in an Albanian sweatshop. Just horrible. I kept
trying to live with them, but eventually had to ditch it. So I sold it off, and went about finding something better.
So I got the following vinyl and CD's over the years, and am content:
(http://s14.postimage.org/d1oy5g6k1/Mozart_Pn_Con_K450_467_466_365_Brendel_Lupo_LPs.jpg)
(http://s13.postimage.org/nfl6ky1wn/Mozart_CD_Pn_Con.jpg)
^That Angel pressing is relatively good. No one would ever confuse it with DG or Philips, of course.
And I have mp3's ripped from a couple of friends' sets by Bilson/Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists and Pollini/Vienna Philharmonic -
after I got my CDCDCD under control. I'm reformed !!!!!!!!! :-\
I'll just mention a few recent discoveries in this music. All of these are things I've gotten to know over the past twelve months. How long I'll stay enamoured by them I can't say. I'm confident they are all well worth a listen.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CeY-U17zL._AA115_.jpg) (Michelangeli/Orchestra Alessandro Scarlatti)
The PC13 is wonderful -- a good contrast to the one with Garben and better in terms of sound than the one with Giulini.
Talking of ABM I wonder what people think of this PC20 (for me it's spoiled by Munchinger -- sonically it's much better than the one with Giulini)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kDjNoZGeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://www.vistavera.com/products_pictures/00161-medium.jpg) (Gilels/Moscow Conservatoire Orchestra)
The PC 27 is amazing, and infinitely preferable to the one with Boehm. He conducted it himself.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61P4X7D9S7L._AA115_.gif) (Zacharias/Zinman)
The PC 23 here is incandescent. My top 23.
Talking of Zacherias, how are people getting on with the recoridings with the Lucerne Orchestra? I have them but I've hardly started to explore them in depth. I did listen carefully to 21 -- for me it was a bit one-dimensionally sunny. Where has the bold post-modernist Zacharias gone? -- the chap who introduced the synthesizer so approriately in PC 26, or distressed the Don Giovanni chord so wonderfully in PC 20. Oh dear, he's matured.
(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/5c/4c/00124c5c_medium.jpeg)
Someone here put me on to this a while ago. It really is an essential recording. Recently the PC 17 has been giving me enormous pleasure.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410YXW1DY0L._AA115_.jpg) (Kocsis/Budapest Festival Orchestra)
Another good 17 here -- and the 19, which is an interesting thing to compare with Schnabel and Pollini
Kocsis's 25 with Rolla was good too. Has anyone heard his 27 here?
(http://cdn.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/HCD31172.gif) (Kocsis/Rolla/Franz Liszt Chamber Orchestra)
Quote from: Mandryka on March 06, 2012, 08:10:15 AM
I'll just mention a few recent discoveries in this music. All of these are things I've gotten to know over the past twelve months. How long I'll stay enamoured by them I can't say. I'm confident they are all well worth a listen.
I think you've finally gone off the deep end with the personalized Mozart. The sound quality of that Gilels cd is hellish. But more power to you.
Zacharias just came out with a new 491, his EMI recording being a highlight. He was always good in andante of 467, and that volume (6) is solid. I actually think his playing style on the Lucerne cds I've heard is somewhat more concise, perhaps partly because he's deciding himself on the flow of the music. Although you have the trade off from the bigger orchestra sound. Sure he's a little over-polished, but he's reliable, direct, and unlike so many players he's expressively tasteful. Also technically fluid, which is very important to me for a convincing Mozart interpreter.
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 07, 2012, 07:37:32 PM
I think you've finally gone off the deep end with the personalized Mozart. The sound quality of that Gilels cd is hellish. But more power to you.
Zacharias just came out with a new 491, his EMI recording being a highlight. He was always good in andante of 467, and that volume (6) is solid. I actually think his playing style on the Lucerne cds I've heard is somewhat more concise, perhaps partly because he's deciding himself on the flow of the music. Although you have the trade off from the bigger orchestra sound. Sure he's a little over-polished, but he's reliable, direct, and unlike so many players he's expressively tasteful. Also technically fluid, which is very important to me for a convincing Mozart interpreter.
You're so right. I think that fluid playing is more important in Mozart's piano works than any other composer I know. Those pianists who chop up Mozart's music really suck.
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2012, 07:57:56 PM
You're so right. I think that fluid playing is more important in Mozart's piano works than any other composer I know. Those pianists who chop up Mozart's music really suck.
For me, I just can't get past the idea of the exuberant and freely creative youth.
With other composers, like Bach and Beethoven, who actually grew old, that is not the case.
But with Mozart, if you lose that exuberance and fluid output, it's no longer Mozart, in my opinion.
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 07, 2012, 07:37:32 PM
I think you've finally gone off the deep end with the personalized Mozart. The sound quality of that Gilels cd is hellish. But more power to you.
Zacharias just came out with a new 491, his EMI recording being a highlight. He was always good in andante of 467, and that volume (6) is solid. I actually think his playing style on the Lucerne cds I've heard is somewhat more concise, perhaps partly because he's deciding himself on the flow of the music. Although you have the trade off from the bigger orchestra sound. Sure he's a little over-polished, but he's reliable, direct, and unlike so many players he's expressively tasteful. Also technically fluid, which is very important to me for a convincing Mozart interpreter.
I agree he's expressively tasteful in the EMI set, especially when he puts the synthesizer in PC 26, and when he deforms that chord in the last movement of PC 20, and when he takes that unusually rapid tempo for the slow movement of PC 21. I haven't explored all of the Lausanne recordings but as I say I thought the PC 21 was shallow in conception, really because he seems to see the concerto as unrelentingly happy music. The really interesting PC 21s find a greater variety of feeling in the music. Gilels is the most revealing for me in this concerto.
I did play his PC 19 with the Lausanne a couple of times this week in fact, and again I was underwhelmed for similar reasons. The PC 23 from memory didn't have the same white hot quality as the record he made with Zinman.
By the way I think you're exaggerating about the sound in the Gilels PC 27 from Moscow, though I I may have a high level of tolerance when it comes to sound quality. Do you think that the Gilels performance there is particularly personalised? I wonder what you think of the way Schnabel plays it -- the tempos in the largo. Is Kocsics personalsed? And Richter?
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 07, 2012, 08:04:42 PM
For me, I just can't get past the idea of the exuberant and freely creative youth.
With other composers, like Bach and Beethoven, who actually grew old, that is not the case.
But with Mozart, if you lose that exuberance and fluid output, it's no longer Mozart, in my opinion.
I think there are some lovely pieces by Mozart which go beyond this paradigm of exuberant lyricism, or at least can be well served by performances which go beyond it.
I wonder what you think of (Vladimir) Sofronitsky's. Moscow Conservatory performance of K396.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2012, 09:50:28 PM
I agree he's expressively tasteful in the EMI set, especially when he puts the synthesizer in PC 26, and when he deforms that chord in the last movement of PC 20, and when he takes that unusually rapid tempo for the slow movement of PC 21. I haven't explored all of the Lausanne recordings but as I say I thought the PC 21 was shallow in conception, really because he seems to see the concerto as unrelentingly happy music. The really interesting PC 21s find a greater variety of feeling in the music. Gilels is the most revealing for me in this concerto.
I did play his PC 19 with the Lausanne a couple of times this week in fact, and again I was underwhelmed for similar reasons. The PC 23 from memory didn't have the same white hot quality as the record he made with Zinman.
By the way I think you're exaggerating about the sound in the Gilels PC 27 from Moscow, though I I may have a high level of tolerance when it comes to sound quality. Do you think that the Gilels performance there is particularly personalised? I wonder what you think of the way Schnabel plays it -- the tempos in the largo. Is Kocsics personalsed? And Richter?
Sorry, by personalized, I meant your personal selections, not especially personalized playing.
About Zacharias on EMI, I draw a distinction between the overall playing style and a couple contentious solutions to Mozart's incomplete piano parts, cadenzas and so forth. In the former area, Zacharias is much more tasteful than a host of sentimental Mozart performers. His ornamentation in the latter area is likewise very tasteful.
The cadenzas are problematic. But the majority of the EMI performances (basically all except 2), 491 and 488 in particular, show that he is a fluid player capable of reference interpretations.
The synthesizer in the cadenza of 537 is supposed to stand in for a music box. It doesn't sound like a Prophet or Moog. The result may not be entirely successful, but I don't find the decision to be lacking in taste, just experimental, certainly not more so than Edwin Fischer's cadenzas, for example. The chord in 466, are you talking about the Don Giovanni sample, that's clearly supposed to sound like an old mono Salzburg tutto, e.g. Furtwangler, before the Don gets dragged to hell? My response to that is the same, though the Lucerne version is more conventional and streamlined no doubt.
As for the "unusually rapid tempo" in 467. Contrary to tradition, it's not a slow movement. It's andante, alla breve. His tempo is actually in the correct range. I'm surprised you don't know this.
So, we have only 2 potential misfires in an otherwise solid set. And considering that 466 is played to death and 537 is not one of Mozart's best anyway, this result is fine with me.
About the Gilels performance. Gilels is one of my favorites, and I have many live recordings by him. But that Mozart concerto recording has no depth to the orchestral sound and the tone is completely thin and wavering. Maybe if Vista Vera hadn't gotten their hands on it... it would be marginally better, but it's a cheap tape recording. It's an interesting document, obviously, and to like it more than the studio version is one thing, but to say it is "infinitely preferable" to the Bohm, which has an order of magnitude better quality orchestral playing and sound, strikes me as silly.
In those Richter performances, the coarse orchestral sound is slightly better, but unlike Gilels' his playing is sometimes heavy-handed, e.g. 482 iii and 450 iii. They are interesting in their way.
Finally, those Michelangeli performances, well, the orchestral sound is pretty squeaky, but his playing is phenomenal. He's better than Richter, that's for sure.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2012, 09:50:28 PM
I think there are some lovely pieces by Mozart which go beyond this paradigm of exuberant lyricism, or at least can be well served by performances which go beyond it.
I wonder what you think of (Vladimir) Sofronitsky's. Moscow Conservatory performance of K396.
I never said "lyricism." In any case, all Mozart works better without sentimentality and ponderousness, with youthful energy, dramatic flexibility and fluidity, which is why Harnoncourt's rather dark recordings with the RCO are so good.
The Sofronitsky performance is unusual. Sounds a little like Chopin, which is insightful.
But I also think Edwin Fischer's voice leading is more sophisticated.
I didn't mean it to be irony about Zacharias's synth. I also didn't know it was supposed to be a music box! I like that sort of experimentation a lot. I also know that the tempo he tkes the central movement in PC 21 is very justifiable -- but as far as I can remember no one else takes it so rapidly.
Vista Vera transfers are problematic, I know. But in that case it doesn't prevent me appreciating the performance (which I played again last night and enjoyed a lot)
It's the Richter/Barshai PC 17 which interests me the most in that box in fact, though I've enjoyed the 15 and 22. The style is not light, but I think that's a good thing. Heavy handed is loaded.
Let me ask you an off-topic question here, since you have listened to a lot of Mozart (someone will move it if it's a problem). Any recommendations for the C minor mass? I have and like Leppard's CD, but I'm wondering what else good is around.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 08, 2012, 09:00:12 PM
I didn't mean it to be irony about Zacharias's synth. I also didn't know it was supposed to be a music box! I like that sort of experimentation a lot. I also know that the tempo he tkes the central movement in PC 21 is very justifiable -- but as far as I can remember no one else takes it so rapidly.
Vista Vera transfers are problematic, I know. But in that case it doesn't prevent me appreciating the performance (which I played again last night and enjoyed a lot)
It's the Richter/Barshai PC 17 which interests me the most in that box in fact, though I've enjoyed the 15 and 22. The style is not light, but I think that's a good thing. Heavy handed is loaded.
Let me ask you an off-topic question here, since you have listened to a lot of Mozart (someone will move it if it's a problem). Any recommendations for the C minor mass? I have and like Leppard's CD, but I'm wondering what else good is around.
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were being sarcastic.
I'm similarly inclined to think Richter's 17 is the best in that set.
And really what I was getting at about the Gilels is that sometimes we may favor the live recordings, and this one is very interesting, yes, but that the studio recording has other major advantages.
Then again, I would love to see more Leonhardt and Pollini bootlegs, for example.
For C minor mass, there seem to be quite a lot of good recordings, although people will be partisan. I think I would choose Bernstein, Harnoncourt, Leppard and Fricsay. Maybe Herreweghe for a small church version. I don't like Gardiner's conducting, I've decided.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OqtSV-hlL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
This morning I'm really enjoying Curzon's performance of concerto's #23 and #27, dating from 1964 with the Wiener Philharmoniker under George Szell.
Amazing, amazing playing.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DGH9NKQSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Piano Concerti 20 & 25 With Michelangeli (piano) and Garben conducting
Another exquisite recording. I'm rather new to Michelangeli.
8)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4101KW0YP2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Marriner is one of my favorite Mozart conductors. That is probably the case because of the "Amadeus" soundtrack (my initial intro to Mozart in the 80s) but over the years I've come to love his subtle workmanship in the accompaniments to the piano concertos. And Ivan Moravec, also on the "Amadeus" soundtrack, rings a bell in my subconcious when it comes to Mozart, so I'm not surprised I'm really enjoying the above recording.
8)
Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 09:43:57 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4101KW0YP2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Marriner is one of my favorite Mozart conductors. That is probably the case because of the "Amadeus" soundtrack (my initial intro to Mozart in the 80s) but over the years I've come to love his subtle workmanship in the accompaniments to the piano concertos. And Ivan Moravec, also on the "Amadeus" soundtrack, rings a bell in my subconcious when it comes to Mozart, so I'm not surprised I'm really enjoying the above recording.
8)
I have this one and two others - both enjoyable. I recently went ahead and got the
Malcolm Bilson/Gardiner set - which I have had wish-listed for a while. I also got the complete
Uchida set, since I have always enjoyed her Mozart playing. I now have five (?) complete sets and a bunch of individual recordings of these works. They are my favorite Mozart, and a form I think he excelled at. The interesting thing is listening to Bilson and Uchida back to back.
Anda,
Perahia, and
Immerseel make up my other sets. I'm not in front of my collection, so I may be leaving someone out. :o
As I often say, I prefer period instruments - but for the Mozart PC, I love hearing the lushness of a modern piano with the orchestra, too. Oh, I also have Michangeli on 13 & 15; I like the playing but the sound seems "boxy" - maybe because it is from a live performance. John O'Conor, Robert Levin, Maria Joao Pires, Robert Casadesus and Ingrid Haebler also play these works very nicely.
:)
Quote from: Arnold on March 11, 2012, 10:02:52 AM
I have this one and two others - both enjoyable. I recently went ahead and got the Malcolm Bilson/Gardiner set - which I have had wish-listed for a while. I also got the complete Uchida set, since I have always enjoyed her Mozart playing. I now have five (?) complete sets and a bunch of individual recordings of these works. They are my favorite Mozart, and a form I think he excelled at. The interesting thing is listening to Bilson and Uchida back to back. Anda, Perahia, and Immerseel make up my other sets. I'm not in front of my collection, so I may be leaving someone out. :o
As I often say, I prefer period instruments - but for the Mozart PC, I love hearing the lushness of a modern piano with the orchestra, too. Oh, I also have Michangeli on 13 & 15; I like the playing but the sound seems "boxy" - maybe because it is from a live performance. John O'Conor, Robert Levin, Maria Joao Pires, Robert Casadesus and Ingrid Haebler also play these works very nicely.
:)
The Kraus (Vienna State Orchestra with Simon), Bilson and Immersel sets are my mainstays, but recently, my re-attraction to the modern grand has totally captured my imagination. You are right, Mozart's concerti are incredible on the modern grand.
I am exploring many recordings that I usually would have ignored in the past. Curzon, Serkin, Casadesus, and Haebler are on my listening pile! Can't wait to hear and compare these!
I have the Uchida on my wish-list, as I've always loved her recording of Mozart's 18th and 19th with Tate at the helm. Would love to hear more of that cycle.
8)
By the way, the Lili Kraus/Stephen Simon LP cycle is one of my most treasured recordings, it was my introduction to Mozart's piano concerti back in the day:
(http://www.billstuff.com/images/rec-o614.jpg)
Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 11:47:17 AM
By the way, the Lili Kraus/Stephen Simon LP cycle is one of my most treasured recordings, it was my introduction to Mozart's piano concerti back in the day:
(http://www.billstuff.com/images/rec-o614.jpg)
If you ever transfer those to digital, please let me know? I love Lili's Mozart.
Lili settled in Asheville, NC for many years until she passed.
Some friends and I went by where we were told she used to live in the 90's.
This is another great artist that unfortunately was not recorded in the best conditions.
Wish recording techniques of the 40's-50's had been equal to, say, late-70's. Sigh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxseZKegE5U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxseZKegE5U)
I only know Lili's K.414 & 456 with Monteux and the BSO - very fine. Otherwise I'm a Schnabel, Fischer (K.503 live! only issued by Diapason I think), Casadesus, Serkin & Curzon devotee. I also appreciate the Richter recordings of K.595 & 451(?) that Mandryka approves of but have never heard the K.453 he raves about. In the latter I can recommend a Gulda performance, with Angerer; Kempe conducts K.595 on the other side of the LP: live if I remember aright, a glorious performance - never reissued, priceless (it's somewhere else so I can't get it out now).
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/009/658/0000965803_350.jpg)
Anyone own this? If so, please PM me?
You can download it (MP3 alas) from Amazon.uk. I've just ordered the other 2-CD Vox set with Nos. 19 & 20 plus various sonatas from Amazon.de for less than 2€.
I'm exploring records of PC 18 a bit now, so if anyone knows any interesting ones please let me know.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2012, 09:30:17 PM
I'm exploring records of PC 18 a bit now, so if anyone knows any interesting ones please let me know.
I always thought the Uchida/Tate account to be very interesting, mannered but fresh, a real subtle and moody account. It is my favorite 18.
I'll check out the Uchida record.
Right now the one that's giving me most pleasure is Serkin/Abbado. I know this is a daft and soppy thing to say, but you can hear that they really love the music. There are a couple of records on spotify which have caught my attention though. A very fast performance from Lili Kraus/Monteux. Also Badura Skoda for the orchestra. The concerto sounds good with a smaller orchestra I think.
Oh, another one I've been playing a few times is Richter/Barshai.
Viz. Serkin/Abbado, you do not sound daft or soppy at all IMO.
Kirschnereit is a fantastic set of performances at an unbeatable price, and is good sound.
Quote from: George on March 11, 2012, 12:09:30 PM
If you ever transfer those [Lili Kraus/Simon PC set] to digital, please let me know? I love Lili's Mozart.
They were available as "Locked ed in the Vault" CDs. Very worthwhile.
Bill
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2012, 09:30:17 PM
I'm exploring records of PC 18 a bit now, so if anyone knows any interesting ones please let me know.
I like all the ones I own:
Schiff / Vegh (PC 17 on the same CD is very good)
Peter Serkin / Schneider (I like this whole series 14-19)
Casadesus / Szell
Bilson / Gardiner
Walter Klien / Kehr
Lili Kraus / Simon
Goode / Orpheus CO (maybe my least favorite of these performances)
Bill
Quote from: Old Listener on June 30, 2012, 03:56:58 PM
I like all the ones I own:
Schiff / Vegh (PC 17 on the same CD is very good)
Peter Serkin / Schneider (I like this whole series 14-19)
Casadesus / Szell
Bilson / Gardiner
Walter Klien / Kehr
Lili Kraus / Simon
Goode / Orpheus CO (maybe my least favorite of these performances)
Bill
Does Serkin play a modern piano or an old one? I'm very tempted to buy that recording and will give in to the temptation if it's a fortepiano
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Does Serkin play a modern piano or an old one? I'm very tempted to buy that recording and will give in to the temptation if it's a fortepiano
A modern piano. The ECO isn't HIP either. Glad to help with the temptation.
The RCA CDs have been out of the catalog for years. There was a Japanese set of PC 14-19 with a brighter balance. There is a set of 14-18 at ArkivMusic.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=186697 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=186697)
Bill
OK I tihnk I'll pas over the Peter Serkin, unless someone can explain why it's special.
My little PC 18 adventure has been quite interesting.
I was very taken by Abbado and Rudolf Serkin, but what it lacks is sparkle. You can tell they love the music though and it's very satisfying, as long as you don't want energy and brio and excitement.
Two symphonyshare contributions proved to be extremely interesting. Horszowski with Music Aeterna are very appolonian and yet also gentle and intimate. It's fine, but too restrained to be a favourite. I'm sure many people will love it, it's just not my style in this concerto.
But the most astonishing was a transfer of an LP with Hans Henkemans and John Pritchard and the Vienna Symphony, also on symphonyshare (though you may have to contact the original poster for a new link.) This has made me really get clearer about how I like my Mozart.
Does anyone know anything about Hans Henkemans?
Apart from that I continue to rate Kocsis's very highly -- it's all about getting the right blend of energy and sentiment.
Quote from: mjwal on July 11, 2012, 03:38:49 AM
The problem with these reissues of the great Mozart piano concertos with Szell/Casadesus is that they have omitted several works, a particular cause for regret being the omission of K.456 and K.466, as noted by one of the Amazon reviewers
I think the Sony box sets provide an opportunity to get great performances at a very low price - omissions or not.
I listened to the Casadesus / Szell recording of K. 456 just now. At the beginning, I was struck by the boxy slightly distant sound but I adjusted quickly and thoroughly enjoyed the recording. I had forgotten about this recording when I commented on recordings of K. 458 in another thread. This concerto is very well served with very enjoyable recordings.
> A pity they never recorded K.271. I am still searching for my "ideal" recording of this. Any suggestions?
> I have Brendel/Janigro, Gieseking/Rosbaud, Firkusny/Szell, Serkin/Schneider et j'en oublie. What about the Lili Kraus on Dutton?
> I am still searching for my "ideal" recording of this.
Me too. I think it requires something different from the performers than other Mozart concerti.
I go back 4 decades with Brendel/Janigro. These days I listen to Brendel / Marriner or Brendel / Mackerras more often.
I don't return to Firkusny/Szell very often.
Bilson / Gardiner might be the recording I play most often.
Schiff / Vegh is worthwhile for Vegh's contribution even if you aren't taken with Schiff.
I don't return to Goode / Orpheus very often.
> What about the Lili Kraus on Dutton?
Pre-war, I note. I have not heard those performances. I do have Kraus / Desarzens and Kraus/Simon. Kraus's concerto recordings often have serviceable but not high quality sound and the conductor and orchestra are not up to her level.
The Kraus / Simon recording of K. 271 sounds pretty good and Simon did a good job. Reading posts like your causes me to listen again to things mentioned in those posts.
Bill
For 271, I enjoy the Jos van Immerseel \.
Thanks for the K 271 tips. I've just realised I have the Bilson K 271, which I bought on LP a loong time ago. I haven't replayed it for ages - will do so when I get back to most of my record collection later this summer. The Immerseel is a good tip, Bogey - I've heard a lot of good of his work, so this is on my list.
In the meantime I just ordered the Linda Nicholson for 1 cent (!) - I rather like other Mozart performances I've heard by her.
Of course I absolutely agree the Sony box provides a good opportunity to hear the Casadesus/Szell Mozart pcs, Old Listener - the problem I can see coming is that those who have got hooked, as it were, will begin to wonder where to find the missing ones. K 466, though in mono, is the most intense driven performance I know - my favourite, and I realise Serkin/Szell is no slouch, not to mention Schnabel/Süsskind, Curzon/Britten, Gieseking/Rosbaud et al. I like what you say about K 271 requiring something different - could you specify? Perhaps because it has something of a transformation of the high Baroque about it? That terribly wistful look back at the age of courtesy in the final movement, which can be heartbreaking. I agree Firkusny/Szell doesn't quite cut it.
For the Jeunehomme Ranki/Rolla. Also Pletnev is a favourite of mine in it.
Also remember liking by Horszowski with someone I can't remember, and Weissenberg/Giulini
I think this was originally a harpsichord concerto wasn't it? I've never heard it played like that.
If anyone knows how I can hear Bashkirov play it then please let me know. I believe he recorded it with Lev Markiz
Quote from: Annie on July 12, 2012, 10:54:03 AM
one of the books i had mentioned that the manuscript specifies harpsichord but that mozart performed it on the piano with a couple of exceptions
Is there perhaps a suggestion that the difference might have meant less to Mozart himself, than it does to some of us here, to-day? . . .
After a certain time, then, he used/preferred piano, yes?
Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2012, 08:40:58 AM
For the Jeunehomme Ranki/Rolla. Also Pletnev is a favourite of mine in it.
Also remember liking by Horszowski with someone I can't remember, and Weissenberg/Giulini
I think this was originally a harpsichord concerto wasn't it? I've never heard it played like that.
If anyone knows how I can hear Bashkirov play it then please let me know. I believe he recorded it with Lev Markiz
There is in fact a recording with Igor Kipnis on harpsichord, but I've never heard it.
Weissenberg/Giulini - hmmm. Interesting, though Giulini and Mozart... I might try Andsnes, as you recommend, Annie. This is one work where a plethora of recordings is probably necessary. We all know there's only one recording of the Pathétique Symphony which you probably need to hear once a decade at most (mine's Golovanov), but the Jenamy concerto, as it must now be called, is something else...
Quote from: mjwal on July 12, 2012, 11:49:25 AM
There is in fact a recording with Igor Kipnis on harpsichord, but I've never heard it.
Weissenberg/Giulini - hmmm. Interesting, though Giulini and Mozart... I might try Andsnes, as you recommend, Annie. This is one work where a plethora of recordings is probably necessary. We all know there's only one recording of the Pathétique Symphony which you probably need to hear once a decade at most (mine's Golovanov), but the Jenamy concerto, as it must now be called, is something else...
I'm not sure I really share your enthusiasm for the concerto, with its long, long first movement. Digging around in my own library and on spotify has been a bit disappointing. However a couple of interesting things did turn up. There's Gieseking/Rosbaud which I'd forgotten about completely. And a surprise on spotify -- Schiff and Vegh. Vegh's conducting is wonderful, nuanced, colourful, vivacious. And Schiff's exuberant.
Someone pointed out Zitterbart and Fey on Haenssler and I've quite enjoyed that one too, especially for Fey. The move to fortepiano doesn't seem to add or subtract much, at least not much of what I'm looking for from a performance. It's hard to imagine what this would sound like on harpsichord -- as far as I can see only Kipns used one on record and that has proved to be impossible to find.
Oh and another interesting thing. I found Busoni's transcription of the middle movement , which I didn't know about before. Petri played it.
For the Jeunehomme on fortepiano, Andreas Staier is stellar IMO: :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VM%2Bv4XekL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61nA24GB-AL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Q
Quote from: Mandryka on July 02, 2012, 08:38:53 AM
[....]
But the most astonishing was a transfer of an LP with Hans Henkemans and John Pritchard and the Vienna Symphony, also on symphonyshare (though you may have to contact the original poster for a new link.) This has made me really get clearer about how I like my Mozart.
Does anyone know anything about Hans Henkemans?
[....]
Hans Henkemans (1913-1995):
At the time he was quite famous in the Netherlands, especially during the 50s and 60s.
He played a.o. all the Mozart concertos for the Dutch radio. Henkemans was also a celebrated pianist in Debussy and Ravel. He was teaching at the conservatoria of Amsterdam and Groningen (piano and composition).
Henkemans retired as a concert pianist around the early 70s. After that he remained active as a composer and psychiatrist. He wrote books and articles about the psychological process of creation.
Quote from: Que on July 13, 2012, 11:24:46 PM
For the Jeunehomme on fortepiano, Andreas Staier is stellar IMO: :)
Q
Stap me vitals! my memory... In fact I bought this years ago, brought it to Berlin to listen to again last winter and was delighted. I'd put it up with the best, in fact. I wonder how many more recordings I own which have temporarily (I hope) disappeared into the dark backward and abysm.
I enjoyed the Gieseking a lot the last time I listened, Mandryka, I had a grotty LP for years and the recent Andromeda transfer made me appreciate its virtues. - Busoni's take on Mozart is always instructive & entertaining, and that Petri performance certainly spans the spectrum between elegance and passionate gloom..
I just played Staier for the first time and I think I agree with you both. It's outstanding. I'd bought the CD years ago, but I'd only ever played the 17th from it. Thanks for mentioning it Que.
Staier finds so much nuance, depth, feeling, spirituality etc in the first movement of the Jeunehomme it's astonishing. A really valuable recording.
It reminded me of an old rmcr discussion about Schnabel in the largo of Beethoven Op 10/3. Someone said that he made it sound like a late work, the work of a visionary thinker , not a young man's work at all. And for that reason she preferred Gould and Gulda to Schnabel.
It raises all sorts of questions about style, that.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 16, 2012, 01:55:51 AM
It reminded me of an old rmcr discussion about Schnabel in the largo of Beethoven Op 10/3. Someone said that he made it sound like a late work, the work of a visionary thinker , not a young man's work at all. And for that reason she preferred Gould and Gulda to Schnabel.
It raises all sorts of questions about style, that.
From an early age Beethoven was a visionary thinker, and this is why I prefer Schnabel to Gulda.
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 16, 2012, 10:07:01 AM
From an early age Beethoven was a visionary thinker, and this is why I prefer Schnabel to Gulda.
LOL. Have you read Comini's book?
(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwxEYZsbWZi8QDxx-GpBX4cupya8sqx-7ww7RP3EcKfVPDGXtcZw)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 16, 2012, 11:18:43 AM
LOL.
What is so funny?
Quote from: Mandryka
Have you read Comini's book?
No I have not; do you think I should read it?
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 17, 2012, 10:16:28 AM
What is so funny?
No I have not; do you think I should read it?
If you're interested in reception history then I think so. It's interesting to me to find out how people's perceptions of Beethoven, the man and his music, have changed, how they have been constructed. Comini reconstructs the reception history partly through written documents and partly through pictures, and I find that a stimulating approach because I like art. I'm interested in Beethoven from this point of view -- and in Brahms even more so.
Laughing because I had totally failed to express myself well, and that of course your reply has to be right given the way I posted. Of course he has a vision. But whether it's the sort of tragic philosophical vision that you hear expressed in Schnabel's largo, at the age of 28 or even younger (I don't know how old LvB was when he wrote it), is another question entirely. Of course the largo is sad. But it may not be tragic and deep: it may be rather just an about feeling blue. Schnabel makes it shake the universe like the final act of Tristan -- I'm not sure that's the right thing to do with the music. It may be more like just young Achliles feeling sad about the death of his mate Patroculus, or a kid feeling pissed off about something.
This medium is hard like that -- you don't have the opportunity for clarification in rthe moment, and the scope for misunderstanding is, hence, enormous.
If you have the Gould Op 10/3 I'd be interested to know what you think. Equally the Staier Jeunehomme, which I continue to find fascinating.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 17, 2012, 10:48:38 AMIf you're interested in reception history then I think so. It's interesting to me to find out how people's perceptions of Beethoven, the man and his music, have changed, how they have been constructed. Comini reconstructs the reception history partly through written documents and partly through pictures, and I find that a stimulating approach because I like art. I'm interested in Beethoven from this point of view -- and in Brahms even more so.
Actually it does interest me. Particularly the changing interpretation of the music - more than the changing perception of the composer. This is why I -like you- go on acquiring multiple versions of the music.
Quote from: MandrykaLaughing because I had totally failed to express myself well, and that of course your reply has to be right given the way I posted. Of course he has a vision. But whether it's the sort of heavy tragic vision that you hear expressed in Schnabel's largo, at the age of 28 or even younger (I don't know how old LvB was when he wrote it), is another question entirely.
The sonata is composed between 1796 and 1798, so he may have been 26 years old. I have always (and a long time before I heard Schnabel´s recording) associated the largo with the expression of deep tragedy, but I acknowledge that other interpretations may be possible.
Quote from: MandrykaThis medium is hard like that -- you don't have the opportunity for clarification in the moment, and the scope for misunderstanding is, hence, enormous.
That is true. Fortunately I think I have been misinterpreted only rarely.
Quote from: MandrykaIf you have the Gould Op 10/3 I'd be interested to know what you think. Equally the Staier Jeunehomme, which I continue to find fascinating.
I acquired Gould´s incomplete LvB sonata set (exclusive the CD with no. 24 and 29) fifteen years ago. My reaction to his playing was irritation and frustration, so I parted with the set a few years later. I do not recall many details, - I think my frustration prevented me from taking his interpretations seriously.
I do not know Staier´s Jeunehomme, nor do I acquire much Mozart at all, knowing that the number of occasions I feel like listening to him are few. Do not get me wrong, I consider Mozart a great composer,- it is just that my mind does not resonate that much to his music.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 29, 2012, 09:40:05 AM
I'll check out the Uchida record.
Right now the one that's giving me most pleasure is Serkin/Abbado. I know this is a daft and soppy thing to say, but you can hear that they really love the music. There are a couple of records on spotify which have caught my attention though. A very fast performance from Lili Kraus/Monteux. Also Badura Skoda for the orchestra. The concerto sounds good with a smaller orchestra I think.
Oh, another one I've been playing a few times is Richter/Barshai.
I've decided to explore recordings of no.18, and have immensely enjoyed the recordings you have mentioned above (I haven't yet heard the Richter/Barsai).
Especially that of the
Serkin/Abbado, which is so good I am genuinely uplifted.
A kind fellow on Symphonyshare passed along the Henkemann recording and that's my next listen.
I have happily been listening to Rudolf Buchbinder's traversal of the complete Mozart Piano concertos with the Vienna Symphony on Hanssler Profil for the last couple of weeks (available for a ridiculously low price at Berkshire Record Outlet). To me this set offers a near ideal integration and balance of piano with orchestra. Having enjoyed Buchbinder's recent Beethoven sonata cycle on RCA (another ridiculously low priced bargain), this set (recorded live in the late 90's I believe) confirms that this pianist is a master of the Viennese classical tradition. Highly recommended.
Quote from: Oldnslow on October 03, 2012, 09:18:03 AM
I have happily been listening to Rudolf Buchbinder's traversal of the complete Mozart Piano concertos with the Vienna Symphony on Hanssler Profil for the last couple of weeks (available for a ridiculously low price at Berkshire Record Outlet). To me this set offers a near ideal integration and balance of piano with orchestra. Having enjoyed Buchbinder's recent Beethoven sonata cycle on RCA (another ridiculously low priced bargain), this set (recorded live in the late 90's I believe) confirms that this pianist is a master of the Viennese classical tradition. Highly recommended.
Yes, one of my faves (and bought at normal prices a few years ago--but I've been able to enjoy it all this time ;) ). Highly recommended if you just want the music and not a lot of flashy personal "interpretation."
For me, Mozart's piano concertos are synonymous with Tate/Uchida (Philips Classics). No one can touch Uchida, there. And this interpretation is superior to Uchida only (as pianist and conductor).
Clara Haskil (a romanian, btw) deserves being mentioned only in Mozart's violin concertos and violin sonatas - Sir Colin Davis, LSO, A. Grumiaux, C. Haskil (Philips Classics 2001).
P.S. My favourite Mozart piano concerto is no.20 - this is another magical recording: Mozart - Piano Concertos No.20 & No.24 (A. Brendel, SCO, Sir Ch. Mackerras) (Philips 1999). Try it and see if you like it. ;D
Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 04, 2012, 12:19:58 PM
For me, Mozart's piano concertos is synonymous with Tate/Uchida (Philips Classics). No one can touch Uchida, there. And this interpretation is superior to Uchida only (as pianist and conductor).
Clara Haskil (a romanian, btw) deserves being mentioned only in Mozart's violin concertos and violin sonatas - Sir Colin Davis, LSO, A. Grumiaux, C. Haskil (Philips Classics 2001).
P.S. My favourite Mozart piano concerto is no.20 - this is another magical recording: Mozart - Piano Concertos No.20 & No.24 (A. Brendel, SCO, Sir Ch. Mackerras) (Philips 1999). Try it and see if you like it. ;D
I love the D minor, too! One of my favorite bits of music in the world. And I love Uchida's Mozart--but for me Tate spoils her outings with him. I'll be interested to hear her new recordings with Cleveland.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 04:04:36 PM
I'll be interested to hear her new recordings with Cleveland.
i havent heard her previous ones, but i'm enjoying these immensely [pc 23 &24].
Pardon if this question is misplaced; perhaps I should ask it in a more (audio-)technical thread? I am new!
I am curious if anyone knows if there are differences in the mastering/sound between the two relatively recent reissue boxes of Alfred Brendel's Mozart piano concertos with Marriner/ASMF. There is the 10cd Decca/Eloquence box from ~2010, apparently with AMSI ("Ambient Surround Imaging"). Then there's the 2011 Decca 12cd box, including an extra couple discs of (I think) all Haebler/Cooper two-piano concerto works. I cannot tell if this latter Decca 12cd shares the Eloquence mastering for the Brendel performances, or if it lacks the AMSI but still has newer masters than the first Philips [?] cd edition, and/or (bottom line) if the slightly newer Decca edition basically sounds as good as the Eloquence box. I've read some argument back and forth from rec.music.classical (from ~2010?) about AMSI generally, and a very brief an uncomplimentary discussion of the process at GMG here, with an explanatory note apparently from Emil Berliner Studios:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13443.msg330772.html#msg330772
Sorry again that the question is so boringly technical; just curious if anyone has compared the two sets or has some grapevine wisdom to share.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S-yTgyy8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VBHlCxHAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
As far as I know one of them just contains numbers 5 to 27 played by Brendel. The other contains the complete Concertos with numbers 1 to 4 played by other pianists - I thnk haebler and Koopman. Unless you're a completist just get the ones played by Brendel as Mozarts very first concertos tended to be worked reworkings of other pieces. The Brendel only box is at a very reasonable price and Brendel is a great Mozart player. You won't go wrong with them.
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/033/624/0003362431_500.jpg)
Revealing, inspired playing from Boulez and Loriod here. A very great recording - and normally I have no interest in early Mozart. Obviously they must have felt as though they had something to say with the music to made such a bizarre record. It shows.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 21, 2014, 09:31:42 AM
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/033/624/0003362431_500.jpg)
Revealing, inspired playing from Boulez and Loriod here. A very great recording - and normally I have no interest in early Mozart. Obviously they must have felt as though they had something to say with the music to made such a bizarre record. It shows.
What do you mean by bizarre? Are you simply referring to the fact that Boulez and Loriod aren't usually associated with WAM (much less prepubescent WAM), or something else?
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 01:56:31 PM
What do you mean by bizarre? Are you simply referring to the fact that Boulez and Loriod aren't usually associated with WAM (much less prepubescent WAM), or something else?
I was a little startled by that cover. Boulez Mozart? Was it mockery?
(http://img.cdandlp.com/2013/09/imgL/116156055.jpg)
Boulez in classical era stuff is not unheard of.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 01:56:31 PM
What do you mean by bizarre? Are you simply referring to the fact that Boulez and Loriod aren't usually associated with WAM (much less prepubescent WAM), or something else?
It was the fact that they had decided to make a record of such early concertos which struck me as bizarre. Loriod's discography is wider than I appreciated before, there's even some Schumann on spotify. I've just ordered her Debussy Etudes LP.
Quote from: Ken B on May 21, 2014, 02:17:19 PM
I was a little startled by that cover. Boulez Mozart? Was it mockery?
Well he's recorded the Gran Partita, and some concertos including 20 with Pirez, several concertos with Anda, and, as Todd pointed out, that 26 with Curzon.
I also have a recording of him playing Haydn (104) and Beethoven's 4th concerto (with Curzon, who was a pianist he paricularly admired, he played with him a lot.) He said in an interview that he was a fan of Haydn symphonies. As far as I know there are no recordings of any Mozart symphonies or (surprisingly) any Mozart operas.
I am enjoying the Serkin/Abbado set immensely. What a treasure of Mozart interpretation.
It's Abbado/Gulda in PC 24 that I've been listening to - it's not bad at all.
My main attention recently has been on 24 and 27.
Re 27 Rosen (in Classical Style) stresses how the music is full of dissonances which are softened fairly rapidly, and I was keen to find a performance which brings this out. The hunt's still on, but on the way I found a pretty interesting one from Roger Norrington and the Zurich Chamber Orchestra and Sebastian Knauer playing a modern piano (unfortunately.)
Re 24, well I'm appreciating Richter with Muti more and more. It's hard to make the passage work interesting.
Oh and I noticed the other day that lots of Hans Henkemans's Mozart concerto recordings are being rereleased, so there's something to get round to hearing there. He's good.
There is no Abbado/Gulda in 24 K 491 or is this a live/bootleg recording? they only did 20, 21, 25, 27 for DG in the 70s.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 19, 2014, 12:00:16 AM
There is no Abbado/Gulda in 24 K 491 or is this a live/bootleg recording? they only did 20, 21, 25, 27 for DG in the 70s.
Sorry, should have said 27, not 24
Quote from: Leo K. on October 18, 2014, 10:39:12 PM
I am enjoying the Serkin/Abbado set immensely. What a treasure of Mozart interpretation.
Interesting you say this, as I have read that Serkin was in his 80s when that set was recorded and he was well past his prime.
Have you heard any of his earlier recordings with Busch, Schneider, Szell or Ormandy?
Quote from: George on October 19, 2014, 03:12:12 AM
Interesting you say this, as I have read that Serkin was in his 80s when that set was recorded and he was well past his prime.
Indeed. Autumnal Mozart it is.
The Gulda/Abbado set was one of my first 20 or so CDs I bought in 88/89 (and I had only known 27 from an old LP featuring Brendel's Vox? recording). So I got to know the pieces basically from these recordings. It has been I while I listened to them, but I seem to remember that I prefer 21 and 27 to the others. The first movement of 25 is taken very stately and the d minor is also not as dramatic as many others. Gulda is a good Mozartean (he also plays nice cadenzas of his own in some of them), but overall a little "cool" here (and whereas in Beethoven he is usually fast and cool, here he is slowish).
I'm feeling a hankering for another set of Mozart PCs. Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Top contenders:
Zacharias on Warner
Uchida/Tate
Anda always tempts me but I fear will let me down ...
I recommend you change your top contenders to:
Immerseel
Sofronitzky
Zacharias on MDG
[Unless you already have them]
And possibly Kraus on Epic, though I know she made other recordings as well, which I haven't heard
Quote from: Ken B on December 17, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
I'm feeling a hankering for another set of Mozart PCs. Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Top contenders:
Zacharias on Warner
Uchida/Tate
Anda always tempts me but I fear will let me down ...
I don't recommend Anda. Too full of sound imo, so you can't hear all sections and the harmony between them well.
Quote from: Ken B on December 17, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
I'm feeling a hankering for another set of Mozart PCs. Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Top contenders:
Zacharias on Warner
Uchida/Tate
Anda always tempts me but I fear will let me down ...
My top recommendations would be
Perahia and
Anda. Both exquisite.
Katsaris is also very good (and provides killer cadenzas), but I don't think his renditions are available as a set yet. Uchida is good but not really a favourite, Zacharias is also in my opinion rather mundane. In more historic sound, Casadesus should also be considered.
Quote from: Ken B on December 17, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Then definitely check out
Brautigam, whose ongoing cycle with the
Kölner Akademie is a garden of delights so far.
My favorite "HIP" ones are 9, 17-19 with Staier/Concerto Koeln, but I have not kept up with the newer ones like Sofronitzky (daughter of Vladimir)
Quote from: Ken B on December 17, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
I'm feeling a hankering for another set of Mozart PCs. Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Top contenders:
Zacharias on Warner
Uchida/Tate
Anda always tempts me but I fear will let me down ...
I see that there have been some mixed reactions to the Anda set here. But I say go for it. Whatever its faults and flaws may be, they are outweighed by Anda's insights. It's a set that has stood the test of time, and I find myself returning to it again and again when other recordings of these works have let me down.
And while you're at it: You really can't afford to be without this Casadesus/Szell mini-box. Sovereign performances from another time:
[asin]B004H6P2KQ[/asin]
Quote from: Ken B on December 17, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
I'm feeling a hankering for another set of Mozart PCs. Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Top contenders:
Zacharias on Warner
Uchida/Tate
Anda always tempts me but I fear will let me down ...
Zacharias. But best of all get all the Mozart concertos Kocsis recorded.
Quote from: Ken B on December 17, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
I'm feeling a hankering for another set of Mozart PCs. Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Top contenders:
Zacharias on Warner
Uchida/Tate
Anda always tempts me but I fear will let me down ...
No reason to fear, even the sound quality is excellent. :)
Interesting thoughts on the Mozart. I should have listed the cycles I have
Brendel ( most of)
Ashkenazy
Perahia
Bilson
Sofronitsky
Immerseel
Reaction is really divided on Anda! It has a strong nostalgic pull ...
So, I decided I want a small orchestra. Pass then on Szell. Brautigam is too pricey still. Anda "too much sound" sounds worrying. So I went for small set mentioned nowhere ... Piazzini with the Leningrad Soloists. Distler likes it, and for reasons that interest me.
[asin]ASIN: B00023GOL4[/asin]
Quote from: Ken B on December 17, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
I'm feeling a hankering for another set of Mozart PCs. Not necessarily complete, but not just three or four.
Another vote for Casadesus/Szell/Cleveland. A must.
I also love Danny Boy's cycle on DG with the Berlin Phil (big Romantic readings, kind of the anti-Szell) but I'm probably in the minority here.
Sarge
Quote from: Mandryka on December 18, 2014, 09:41:22 AM
But best of all get all the Mozart concertos Kocsis recorded.
They are awfully difficult to find. Do you know any illegal sources? Seriously.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 02:33:43 PM
Another vote for Casadesus/Szell/Cleveland. A must.
I also love Danny Boy's cycle on DG with the Berlin Phil (big Romantic readings, kind of the anti-Szell) but I'm probably in the minority here.
Sarge
Pity Curzon didn't do a cycle. These are magical:
[asin]B00005N56Y[/asin]
Bump.
Quote from: Ken B on December 19, 2014, 01:51:30 PM
Bump.
Good idea. :) I took the liberty of moving the discussion fromthe considering thread to here.
Q
Quote from: Drasko on December 18, 2014, 02:38:26 PM
They are awfully difficult to find. Do you know any illegal sources? Seriously.
Isn't most of it available via Hungaroton's website, or on spotify? The thing I'm looking for is a good HIP chamber scale PC 27. I have the one from Daniel Isoir but it seems workmanlike to me.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2014, 04:35:20 AM
Isn't most of it available via Hungaroton's website, or on spotify?
No spotify where I am. Thanks for mentioning Hungaroton website, I haven't checked it in years, it used to be pretty rudimentary back then. They now do seem to offer the two Hungaroton discs as flac downloads. That's not most of it though, half actually: two discs on Hungaroton (not counting multiple piano concertos), one disc on Harmonia Mundi and one on Philips.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2014, 04:35:20 AM
The thing I'm looking for is a good HIP chamber scale PC 27.
What about Bilson/Gardiner?
Quote from: Drasko on December 20, 2014, 05:38:27 AM
No spotify where I am. Thanks for mentioning Hungaroton website, I haven't checked it in years, it used to be pretty rudimentary back then. They now do seem to offer the two Hungaroton discs as flac downloads. That's not most of it though, half actually: two discs on Hungaroton (not counting multiple piano concertos), one disc on Harmonia Mundi and one on Philips.
Here's what I have
The two and three piano concertos with Ranki and Schiff
A recording with 19, 17 and 11
A recording with 8, 13 and 25
A recording with 12 and 23
A recording with 6, 18 and 27
A recording of him conducting K414, his son Kristián at the piano
Let me know if you want any of this.
Quote from: king ubu on December 20, 2014, 06:15:39 AM
What about Bilson/Gardiner?
I really want something smaller scale, the sort of thing Schoonderwoerd might do. I also want something with a real valedictory feel.
Quote from: Que on December 20, 2014, 02:08:46 AM
Good idea. :) I took the liberty of moving the discussion fromthe considering thread to here.
Q
Also a good idea!
I decided on some odd choices. Piazzini withe Leningrad Soloists for about half a dozen late concerti, and Kirschnereit for a complete set. I wanted a smaller ensemble approach, and a quick tempo approach. Not that those are necessarily right, but they are what I want to hear at the moment. Plus modern sound.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2014, 06:37:07 AM
I really want something smaller scale, the sort of thing Schoonderwoerd might do. I also want something with a real valedictory feel.
I don't know about valedictory feel, but yes very small scale is what I want. Larger than the Hummel reductions, but I can see an orchestra of a dozen or so for some of the concerti.
Quote from: Ken B on December 20, 2014, 06:54:31 AM
I don't know about valedictory feel, but yes very small scale is what I want. Larger than the Hummel reductions, but I can see an orchestra of a dozen or so for some of the concerti.
Oh but something Hummel sized could be wonderful in k 595 I think, but as far as I know Hummel never arranged this one.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2014, 06:36:01 AM
A recording with 19, 17 and 11
A recording with 8, 13 and 25
Let me know if you want any of this.
These two (HM and Philips) would be great, thanks!
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2014, 07:27:20 AM
Oh but something Hummel sized could be wonderful in k 595 I think, but as far as I know Hummel never arranged this one.
I have heard only one and a half of his arrangements, but I thought they were very well done.
As mentioned on the other thread (I guess here now) I've been exploring the Kraus/Simon cycle. The orchestra is bad. The sound is worse. Kraus is magical. Can't stop listening.
Tharaud's performance of the Jenamy has also been rightly praised.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2014, 04:35:20 AMThe thing I'm looking for is a good HIP chamber scale PC 27.
And 3rding this.
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2014, 01:38:38 PM
As mentioned on the other thread (I guess here now) I've been exploring the Kraus/Simon cycle. The orchestra is bad. The sound is worse. Kraus is magical. Can't stop listening.
On LP? Or was that ever released on CD?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 02:33:43 PM
Another vote for Casadesus/Szell/Cleveland. A must.
I also love Danny Boy's cycle on DG with the Berlin Phil (big Romantic readings, kind of the anti-Szell) but I'm probably in the minority here.
Sarge
I too love the Barenboim/BPO cycle. I've been listening to it this month. I'm a big fan of large romantic readings such as these.
Quote from: George on October 19, 2014, 03:12:12 AM
Interesting you say this, as I have read that Serkin was in his 80s when that set was recorded and he was well past his prime.
Have you heard any of his earlier recordings with Busch, Schneider, Szell or Ormandy?
Actually, I don't think I have heard Serkin's Mozart in his prime!:-[
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 02:33:43 PM
I also love Danny Boy's cycle on DG with the Berlin Phil (big Romantic readings, kind of the anti-Szell) but I'm probably in the minority here.
Sarge
I am not finding it on amazon. Do you mean Teldec? http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Piano-Concertos-Nos-20-27/dp/B000000SDY
Quote from: Leo K. on December 20, 2014, 08:46:16 PM
Actually, I don't think I have heard Serkin's Mozart in his prime!:-[
http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concertos-10-12-14/dp/B0000027IZ
This set has performances from 55, 61 and 62 (and one rondo from 77.)
Quote from: George on December 20, 2014, 08:40:35 PM
On LP? Or was that ever released on CD?
I think I'm listening to home-made LP transfers (but that's not the cause of the bad sound, apart from some groove wear in the loud parts—rather a near-anechoic acoustic and some woodwinds that have not aged well) but wouldn't be surprised if they had appeared on CD at some point. Likely deleted now.
Sony Classical owns the rights and is a rapidly-crashing zeppelin, so I'm guessing they'll appear in some ultra cheap box set eventually.
I've been auditioning many of these recordings and have noticed that nearly all of them demonstrate an odd audio effect which I suspect is due to the way the pianos are miked. It's hard to describe but it basically involves ambient or extraneous sound. It can range from a sense of a mike on an empty stage with the gain turned all the way up picking up faint air currents, to a rustling, fluttery noise. In Brendel's recordings with Mackerras I can also hear what I assume is Brendel's mutterings, so that provides a clue as to the mike's position. The most dramatic example I've encountered is Annerose Schmidt and the Dresdner Philharmonie Orchestra with Kurt Masur. If you use Spotify, I've included a link below. Does anyone know what causes this effect?
https://open.spotify.com/album/36GpAjZa1lDAHMw99gDtZo
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71M42DlH96L._SL500_.jpg)
After a long time deliberating over whether I should get this set(I already own the Anda and Perahia sets, along with a ton of individual and multiple recordings by Serkin, Casadesus, Moravec, Haskil, Annie Fischer, Solomon, Kempff, Backhaus, Richter, Rubinstein and Kraus), I decided to grab it when a reasonable copy popped up on amazon this week. Disc one is playing (PC 5, 6 and 8) right now and I am already glad I added this one to my collection. Vegh's conducting is enthusiastic and the sound quality is excellent.
Many thanks to those who shared about the virtues of this set upthread!
Quote from: George on November 20, 2021, 12:09:07 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71M42DlH96L._SL200_.jpg)
After a long time deliberating over whether I should get this set(I already own the Anda and Perahia sets, along with a ton of individual and multiple recordings by Serkin, Casadesus, Moravec, Haskil, Annie Fischer, Solomon, Kempff, Backhaus, Richter, Rubinstein and Kraus), I decided to grab it when a reasonable copy popped up on amazon this week. Disc one is playing (PC 5, 6 and 8) right now and I am already glad I added this one to my collection. Vegh's conducting is enthusiastic and the sound quality is excellent.
Many thanks to those who shared about the virtues of this set upthread!
On second thought, the sound quality of the orchestra is excellent, but the piano lacks clarity, the imaging comes across as blurred. Anyone else hearing this?
I have about 6 concertos from Schiff/Vegh (in single discs from the original issue or the "Mozart Almanac" around 1991) but never got the whole thing because I found the piano too "distant", don't remember lack of clarity. It just sounds "small", although it is a modern piano and a chamber orchestra. I thought that this was maybe not merely recording but artistic choice by Schiff? But the accompaniment is among the best ever.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 20, 2021, 11:32:14 PM
I have about 6 concertos from Schiff/Vegh (in single discs from the original issue or the "Mozart Almanac" around 1991) but never got the whole thing because I found the piano too "distant", don't remember lack of clarity. It just sounds "small", although it is a modern piano and a chamber orchestra. I thought that this was maybe not merely recording but artistic choice by Schiff? But the accompaniment is among the best ever.
Hi Jo,
I am listening again now and I definitely hear the piano being too distant. I think that it is because of this that the piano image comes across to me as lacking clarity. And yes, the accompaniment is superb.
The other day I tried some of Brautigam's recordings: nos. 21 - 25.
It was a bit of an underwhelming experience.... The playing was wel articulated and balanced but Brautigam zipps through these concertos like going through a phone book - none of the Mozart magic was happening to me....
Quote from: Que on November 21, 2021, 05:51:55 AM
The other day I tried some of Brautigam's recordings: nos. 21 - 25.
It was a bit of an underwhelming experience.... The playing was wel articulated and balanced but Brautigam zipps through these concertos like going through a phone book - none of the Mozart magic was happening to me....
I got the first release in that series and had a similar reaction. Boring might be the most precise term. I didn't pursue the series after that.
Quote from: JBS on November 21, 2021, 05:47:28 PM
I got the first release in that series and had a similar reaction. Boring might be the most precise term. I didn't pursue the series after that.
Sofar my favourites on period instruments are Van Immerseel and Staier. I might give Bezuidenhout a try next.
Quote from: JBS on November 21, 2021, 05:47:28 PM
I got the first release in that series and had a similar reaction. Boring might be the most precise term. I didn't pursue the series after that.
I have the complete set and have listened to a few of the discs so far. "Boring" would not characterize my experience. Electrifying perhaps. Most recently the slow, PC17, and the middle movement had a huge impact on me.
Quote from: Que on November 21, 2021, 11:41:28 PM
Sofar my favourites on period instruments are Van Immerseel and Staier. I might give Bezuidenhout a try next.
Well, taking a cue from
Que, I've been listening on Spotify to
Kristian Bezuidenhout on the two CDs below of 5 of Wolfie's KB Concertos - the fortepiano sets that I now own are with
Bilson and
Sofronitzki (who also does some works on harpsichord) - I've not had a chance to hear
Van Immerseel, Staier, or Levin - attached are a lot of reviews of the top row performers, all have both positive and negative comments for those interested.
But as I was perusing Amazon, I see that
Bezuidenhout has a 9-CD box on Mozart's KB Sonatas (and other works) - for those compositions, my collection at the moment includes
Brautigam and
Lubimov - although maybe not for this thread, any comments on Kristian in the solo works? Thanks. Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ruTHswNZL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ub6pCiRGL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51z4CE13IAL.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/KaXpKJlTDAS-wWuwsl-FXRJSnzk=/fit-in/600x595/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9965798-1489372378-7767.jpeg.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61Nps25ER6L._SL1235_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51C7CYIkkZL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51O-+arKysL.jpg)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 22, 2021, 04:59:16 AM
I have the complete set and have listened to a few of the discs so far. "Boring" would not characterize my experience. Electrifying perhaps. Most recently the slow, PC17, and the middle movement had a huge impact on me.
I suppose I should dig out the one installment I have and give it a new listen.
But I've already got Sofrinitzki and Immerseel, plus a bunch of cycles on modern piano (Perahia, Schiff, Brendel, Barenboim, Kraus, and a newly arrived Anda that I have yet to hear) so my motivation to get another cycle is a bit low.
As long as I'm in this thread, I may as well give a shout out to Heisdieck's recordings of some of the PCs. It's a shame he didn't do a complete cycle, because what he did record is top tier.
I don't know if they are available as physical CDs in any format other than as part of the Erato set of his recordings (which is how I have them) but they should be available as downloads.
He did record five CDs (I think) of Mozart piano concertos later in his career for a Japanese label. Later presumably meaning well into his clangy era, but I haven't heard them so I don't know.
Quote from: amw on November 22, 2021, 07:06:56 PM
He did record five CDs (I think) of Mozart piano concertos later in his career for a Japanese label. Later presumably meaning well into his clangy era, but I haven't heard them so I don't know.
Those with Graf/Mozarteum Salzburg, right? Amazon lists four of them, plus a complete set of the sonatas that seems to be from the same label (plus one CD issued by Naive that may be part of the same set). They're quite pricey.
This is the only one that seems to be available, just barely (expensive, seems to have been issued in Japan) as a CD.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/414sVmtcSVL.jpg)
Quote from: JBS on November 22, 2021, 07:27:00 PM
Those with Graf/Mozarteum Salzburg, right? Amazon lists four of them, plus a complete set of the sonatas that seems to be from the same label (plus one CD issued by Naive that may be part of the same set). They're quite pricey.
Yes; recorded in the 1990s. They cover 9, 12 and 18-27 as far as I know, along with the sonatas. Again, I've never heard these, but if anyone
has I'm curious to know what they think. (I also haven't heard the ones in the Erato box set.)
Quote from: JBS on November 22, 2021, 06:57:43 PM
I suppose I should dig out the one installment I have and give it a new listen.
But I've already got Sofrinitzki and Immerseel, plus a bunch of cycles on modern piano (Perahia, Schiff, Brendel, Barenboim, Kraus, and a newly arrived Anda that I have yet to hear) so my motivation to get another cycle is a bit low.
I liked Anda.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61sPfaxJxYL._SL1214_.jpg)
Lately I've been quite enjoying this. A powerful, even aggressive C-minor.
Quote from: Que on November 21, 2021, 05:51:55 AM
The other day I tried some of Brautigam's recordings: nos. 21 - 25.
It was a bit of an underwhelming experience.... The playing was wel articulated and balanced but Brautigam zipps through these concertos like going through a phone book - none of the Mozart magic was happening to me....
Brautigam and playing fast, name a more iconic duo ;D
Quote from: JBS on November 22, 2021, 06:57:43 PM
I suppose I should dig out the one installment I have and give it a new listen.
But I've already got Sofrinitzki and Immerseel, plus a bunch of cycles on modern piano (Perahia, Schiff, Brendel, Barenboim, Kraus, and a newly arrived Anda that I have yet to hear) so my motivation to get another cycle is a bit low.
As us New Englanders say "you're all set" ;) The Anda is my favorite of the bigger cycles by a very wide margin. I recently got the 80s WG CDs which I prefer the sound of to the yellow/black box. After sampling most of the HIP cycles for me I tend to like this music more on modern piano with chamber orchestra, though some of the larger orchestras with intelligent orchestration (ie Fleisher/Szell) are also exceptional and I still don't have a problem with well done larger orchestras in general. IMO unless you have perfectly balanced period performances the smaller fortepianos can get lost with the orchestration. I think Sofronitzky and Immerseel balance these the best.
I was exploring more of the larger cycles and this was my impression
Old:
Anda - just perfect for me
Perahia - very close second place
Schiff - exceptional orchestration, but Decca Schiff is his usual meek, mousy, playing. We need Schiff's bold attitude from the ECM years to record these.
New(er) to me:
Gardiner/Bilson - Gardiner is a bit generic, Bilson is fine. I could have done with just this cycle for HIP but the recorded levels between piano and orchestra is off. I've tried to fix this in Audacity and you can fix the solo parts but not the piano and orchestra playing together
Brautigam - brushes past the tenderness in many places, along with Immerseel the best sounding HIP cycle
Sofronitzky - I liked her playing but found the orchestra subpar and not in a charming kind of way
Immerseel - excellent, well balanced all around
The Heidsieck on Erato/HMV is really wonderful. Some scrappy, characterful playing from Orchestre de la Societe des Concerts due Conservatoire. Like you get the impression the strings are playing from the edge of their seat, dipping and moving in unison :) And Heidsieck for the most part plays his own cadenzas (on the subject of this I think Schnabel has some of the best cadenzas I've ever heard). I haven't heard the newer recordings, someone did share them at one point but turned out to just be the older ones.
Thanks hvblas for your comments - I previously showed my 2 PI sets, i.e. Bilson & Sofronitski (also have 2 on modern pianos, Anda - also my favorite - and Zacharias on MDG) - agree w/ your comments on Bilson - his piano seems to be in the background, esp. at lower volumes and wish there were a better balance; seems to improve by upping the volume. As for Sofronitski, I do like her playing (and on a fortepiano made by her husband), but the band is not the best, now not bad but always mentioned as a minor negative in reviews. Immerseel appears the favorite of fortepiano versions on the forum, SO found the 3 recordings below on Spotify and am listening now - his fortepiano is well in the mix - unfortunately the 10-CD box is only available at exorbitant prices (at least where I'm looking) - Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51idCWzAraL._SX425_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61TCl9xhazL.jpg) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzODU2MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MjgyODYyOTJ9)
A modern piano set I have greatly enjoyed is this:
(https://i1.wp.com/boxset.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/buchbinder_mozart_piano_concertos.jpg?resize=500%2C500)
I think "in the background" is the more realistic balance and I suspect "cheating" with mics/mixing in the other recordings... On old instruments I have only Bilson's box and two discs with Staier/Concerto Köln (9,17-19), the latter are my favorites but I hardly listen to the box (admittedly I don't listen that much to Mozart's piano concerti as I used to).
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 25, 2021, 09:06:47 AM
Thanks hvblas for your comments - I previously showed my 2 PI sets, i.e. Bilson & Sofronitski (also have 2 on modern pianos, Anda - also my favorite - and Zacharias on MDG) - agree w/ your comments on Bilson - his piano seems to be in the background, esp. at lower volumes and wish there were a better balance; seems to improve by upping the volume. As for Sofronitski, I do like her playing (and on a fortepiano made by her husband), but the band is not the best, now not bad but always mentioned as a minor negative in reviews. Immerseel appears the favorite of fortepiano versions on the forum, SO found the 3 recordings below on Spotify and am listening now - his fortepiano is well in the mix - unfortunately the 10-CD box is only available at exorbitant prices (at least where I'm looking) - Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51idCWzAraL._SX425_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61TCl9xhazL.jpg) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzODU2MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MjgyODYyOTJ9)
The newer version in a black slim box is available for $70 including shipping. You have to select the 2008 edition in "see all formats and editions". https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Concertos-Immerseel-fortepiano-Orchestra/dp/B000003UWY/
Moving away from complete sets, I am interested in favs/recommendations for some of the lesser known/played/recorded concertos, preferably available not only within complete boxes.
In particular the first six of the Vienna concertos
K 413 F 11
K 414 A 12
K 415 C 13
K 449 Eb 14
K 450 Bb 15
K 451 D 16
K 271 (9) seems to be covered very well (certainly in my collection...) and I admittedly am not that interested in K 175, 238, 246, so I think I am fine with the early ones, but feel free to mention recordings of these or of any later ones that might qualify (But I think that with the possible exceptions of 18 K 456 and 26 K 537 all from K 453 are sufficiently well served on recordings.)
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2022, 09:22:39 AM
K 449 Eb 14
This one is easy for me, resulting in an immediate response:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61JvP2fvicL._UX425_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
The others require more consideration.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2022, 09:22:39 AM
Moving away from complete sets, I am interested in favs/recommendations for some of the lesser known/played/recorded concertos, preferably available not only within complete boxes.
In particular the first six of the Vienna concertos
K 413 F 11
K 414 A 12
K 415 C 13
K 449 Eb 14
K 450 Bb 15
K 451 D 16
K 271 (9) seems to be covered very well and I admittedly am not that interested in K 175, 238, 246, so I think I am fine with the early ones, but feel free to mention recordings of these or of any later ones that might qualify (But I think that with the possible exceptions of 18 K 456 and 26 K 537 all from K 453 are sufficiently well served on recordings.)
14 is one of the ones I've always loved, at least since I first heard Perahia, Try Hess/Walter and Ranki/Rolla. Daniel Isoir is also well worth hearing, but maybe not quite what you're after. There's only one way to tell.
Either 15 or 16 -- I can't remember which -- I'm pretty sure 16 -- was really well done by Barenboim I thought. But it's been a long time . . .
(Yes, playing it now, 16)
Barenboim/ECO is pretty good in most of these and they might be the recordings I listened to most (I used to have a single disc of 413-15 and later got the cardboard box, I rarely listen to my other box, Bilson/Gardiner).
Peter Serkin recorded 14-19 and it eventually was re-issued in a white box but this one is not cheap anymore and the single disc I have 17+18 is the only one easily findable and while good, it doesn't make me rush for an overpriced box (only one disc of which I'd really wanted, I should have bought this when it was new and under 20 EUR).
Kocsis is very good in K 413 and 415, I don't have his 414 and he apparently skipped the following 3 (Ranki did 449 and 450 but they are introuvable as physical discs)
I was not aware of Moravec/Vlach, thought that Moravec had only done later concertos.
Another dark horse for K 449 (the finale is one of the most brilliant and witty pieces in any concerto, I think) is Brendel/Janigro (Vanguard).
Some other recordings of no little merit:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/414cFYdP3HL._SX425_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41IdDKMTuLS._UX425_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41PGR51V19L.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41hBafm36ZL._SX425_.jpg)
(Firkusny/Bour in 16.)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71u-518XOqL._SX425_.jpg)
12 & 15 with Szell. Must haves for me.
There are also recordings contained in non-cycle big boxes by Pires and Kraus of some of these concertos. They are quite fine. There are recordings by Pollini and Michelangeli (DG and Aura), though they can be more variable.
I have the Casadesus/Szell; I used to have another disc of that odd Firkusny/Bour series but the sound was quite bad, muffled, I got rid of it so long ago (when I was less tolerant of poor sound) that I don't even remember which one I had.
I also have at least one of the live? Michelangeli 415 and/or 450; IIRC, a bit too historical for my taste in this music. I also find even in the rather modest pieces (and certainly in 450-451) the orchestra/conducting about as important as the piano (which is a point against the Michelangeli, unfortunately).
Does anyone know Knauer/Norrington 16 K 451? I find the coupling unfortunate, as I already have some reconstruction of the double concerto (Marriner or Brown, from the time of the 1991 anniversary) and don't need the violin sonata; I'd probably bought this if it had better couplings. (Knauer seems fond of that, his K 482 comes with a concerto by Mozart's son Franz Xaver)
Pires apparently recorded only 14 K 449 of these for DG (bad coupling for me, #26, a piece I don't care for) but 12,13,14 for Erato. I had been wondering about her Erato recordings before; she also did some Bach and Chopin back then but they seem to be rarely mentioned (recall reading generally more and better things about her DG recordings), and I am bit wary about the accompaniments.
What about Zacharias (EMI/Warner or MDG) or Kirschnereit? I head some of Zacharias but not these pieces and they might fit his more playful approach. Read some very positive comments about Kirschnereit/Beermann and I have their Mendelssohn but could not be bothered with the Mozart (as I generally think I have more than enough Mozart concertos, except when I do not...)
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2022, 10:29:41 AM
K 449 (the finale is one of the most brilliant and witty pieces in any concerto, I think)
That's what makes Perahia interesting, the finale.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2022, 11:31:17 AMWhat about Zacharias (EMI/Warner or MDG) or Kirschnereit?
I have both Zacharias cycles and can recommend him across the board, but I left out complete cycles. Don't know Kirschnereit's Mozart, but everything else I have heard has been excellent.
My reason for excluding complete cycles was that I don't really want to get another box. I also think that most of these 6 (and earlier) concertos tend to get eclipsed by the later more famous ones when considering complete cycles (probably unavoidable). The good thing about some cycles like Kirschnereit, both of Zacharias and also Perahia, Buchbinder and Jando are still fairly easy to get in single discs with some searching.
I didn't care for the one Perahia disc (15+16, too wimpy conducting, maybe he should have used a real conductor) I had although this was over 20 years ago and maybe I should try again...
Quote from: Todd on August 27, 2022, 09:31:21 AM
This one is easy for me, resulting in an immediate response:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61JvP2fvicL._UX425_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
The others require more consideration.
Yes very good, I just heard it for the first time.
I forgot one worth exploring -- Richter/Barshai in 14 and 15. I just played some of them again. I say again, but it's maybe 15 years since I last heard them. They sound good to me. It's clearly Richter playing, inimitable, Richter with good technique - the Richter who conquered the West. As it were.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2022, 09:22:39 AM
Moving away from complete sets, I am interested in favs/recommendations for some of the lesser known/played/recorded concertos, preferably available not only within complete boxes.
In particular the first six of the Vienna concertos
K 413 F 11
K 414 A 12
K 415 C 13
K 449 Eb 14
K 450 Bb 15
K 451 D 16
K 271 (9) seems to be covered very well (certainly in my collection...) and I admittedly am not that interested in K 175, 238, 246, so I think I am fine with the early ones, but feel free to mention recordings of these or of any later ones that might qualify (But I think that with the possible exceptions of 18 K 456 and 26 K 537 all from K 453 are sufficiently well served on recordings.)
I missed your window by 1, but I found the Brautigam/Willens recording of Concerto No 17 to be revelatory, particularly the way the orchestral writing comes alive with a period instrument ensemble.
(https://s.yimg.com/aah/yhst-56676699049927/sviatoslav-richter-vol-xiv-barshai-mozart-2-doremi-7909-10-5.jpg)
Listening this morning more carefully on a good hifi to Richter's 449 with Barshai. Terrible sound! But there's something interesting - I chose the word carefully - because of the expressiveness in the first movement. I guess this is what's meant by a romantic interpretation, an interpretation with a variety of contrasting moods expressed in the same sonata form movement.
I don't quite know what to make of it, it seems disjointed and incoherent. But I'm reluctant to just dismiss it like that. Anyway I don't know if what I'm hearing is something I'm bringing, more than something Richter and Barshai are expressing.
It's heavy, that may be the sound quality - but that dates the style a bit I think.
I went and bought this reissue of K. 453 and 467 with Anda. There's a lot to enjoy, much more than I could remember.
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/be9cabb5-e8d1-4e9a-9022-f4025d942851-jpeg.837995/)
I wasn't aware or forgot that Richter had done (relatively) many Mozart concertos. In my mind he's only associated with K 466 and 482 (and I was not too fond of his studio recordings of either, the only ones I had heard, too "massive").
As for 17, it's one of my two or three favorites but too well covered by great recordings to qualify for the more niche bunch I wanted to focus on now (although I now think 14,15 are not quite that niche either).
I also discovered that I have two historical live/broadcast recordings of K 450 with Michelangeli, with Scherchen in Lugano 1956 and with De Stoutz (probably 1950s as well? EDIT: Apparently more like ca. 1972 and pretty decent stereo, the Scherchen is more lively but the sound of the later one is so much better that it's probably preferable) and one K 415 from Naples 1957, dir. Caracciolo.
Last few days I've been doing some comparison of Bilson vs. Immerseel on fortepianos in these works (I own Bilson & Sofronitsky) and have never enjoyed the the balance between Bilson's instrument and Gardiner's orchestra which to my ears 'drowns out' the fortepiano when they are playing together - listening to Immerseel on Spotify and don't have the same aural experience.
SO, I've been looking for Immerseel's box at a decent price and found this place in Brussels La Boitea Musique (https://laboiteamusique.eu/product/mozart-complete-piano-concertos-jos-van-immerseel/) which apparently 'on sale' has the box pictured at the bottom (10 CDs in cardboard sleeves, I believe) - price to me is basically $41 even w/ the steep shipping (plus the Euro & Dollar are at par). Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51z4CE13IAL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41TWW1VFGEL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gNHZzf4/0/3edd9c2f/O/MozartImmerseel.png)
Bilson/Gardiner is the only complete HIP I own (I have a few single discs with other fortepianists).
I am afraid that the "bad balance" is honest. (Admittedly, I have never heard a full piano concerto live on historic instruments but I have heard historic keyboard for opera recitative in the theatre which gives some impression although recitative accompaniment is supposed to be very discreet tinkling.)
Or in any case maybe the price to pay for Gardiner's assertive orchestral contribution that I generally like in most concertos. I listened to a bunch of them in the last days and it works reasonably well in the concertos with fewer wind/brass, i.e. K 413, 414, 449, even 450 and 415 are o.k. in balance (and better in other aspects). But in K 451 and 459 the keyboard is very puny indeed.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 30, 2022, 09:35:02 AM
price to me is basically $41 even w/ the steep shipping (plus the Euro & Dollar are at par). Dave :)
I noticed the bolded part as well when I made an order last week, quite nice as it's not uncommon for me to make orders with JPC. One of the smartest finance people I know said he would be shorting the Euro on leverage many years ago if he wasn't restricted to what he could trade in his personal account. I didn't have the cojones to do it. I think it will be inevitable before the Euro goes down to what it opened at which was around 0.75 +/- a few cents.
Enjoy the Immerseel, that is my favorite PI cycle, I wrote about it some thread. I like Brautigam as well but the Immerseel is enough for me after discarding Bilson. I don't understand nor can I hear Hurwitz's extreme reaction to the Brautigam.
Quote from: hvbias on August 31, 2022, 02:05:21 PM
I don't understand nor can I hear Hurwitz's extreme reaction to the Brautigam.
Let me guess: he hates it? ;)
He shouldn't bother to comment on anything HIP - we already know his opinion: he hates it.
I now got the first volume of the Kirschnereit (K 414, 449 and D major Rondo) and it's very good although in a fairly mainstream way. As a cycle Kirschnereit might be competitive with most on modern instruments, also because of excellent sound. This one has been put in a cardboard box, maybe I'll get this at some stage, even if I don't really want another cycle (because overload from K 466 onwards).
And I found the old hungaroton disc with Kocsis in K 238, 456 and 595. It's very similar to the one with C major concertos, I liked it a little less as 456 seemed a bit rushed in all three movements (595 is fleet but does not feel rushed). I prefer Kocsis to Schiff but the little details Vegh provides in 456 or the "rhetorics" in the slow movement do add another dimension. I am not rushing for the one with 414/488 and I think the Philips disc is clearly the best, because of the best orchestra and sound.
Quote from: hvbias on August 31, 2022, 02:05:21 PM
I noticed the bolded part as well when I made an order last week, quite nice as it's not uncommon for me to make orders with JPC. One of the smartest finance people I know said he would be shorting the Euro on leverage many years ago if he wasn't restricted to what he could trade in his personal account. I didn't have the cojones to do it. I think it will be inevitable before the Euro goes down to what it opened at which was around 0.75 +/- a few cents.
Enjoy the Immerseel, that is my favorite PI cycle, I wrote about it some thread. I like Brautigam as well but the Immerseel is enough for me after discarding Bilson. I don't understand nor can I hear Hurwitz's extreme reaction to the Brautigam.
Thanks for the
Immerseel comments - really enjoyed my Spotify sampling of his recordings and expect the physical discs to sound even better - played
Bilson again and same reaction, i.e. when Gardiner's band comes in, the pianist seems off the stage! ;D
Agree w/
Que about Hurwitz disliking (at times hating) period instruments but he can vary considerably about Brautigam - signed into my ClassicsToday account and looked at the Ronald B. reviews - many of the 10/10 ones were by Jed Distler, but in the attachment (click to enlarge) I put together a composite image of Hurwitz reviews - the top row castigates his performances, however, the bottom row he rates as 10/10s! So an interesting exercise, i.e. Hurwitz can be like a yo-yo, I guess - :laugh: Dave
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2022, 11:31:17 AM
What about ... Kirschnereit?
He's neither bad nor excellent. Mostly ranging from good to very good to good again.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 22, 2021, 09:40:18 AM
Well, taking a cue from Que, I've been listening on Spotify to Kristian Bezuidenhout on the two CDs...
His third installment (with concertos Nos. 9 & 18) is being released tomorrow. Samples sound very enticing!
Quote from: Wanderer on September 01, 2022, 10:54:05 AM
He's neither bad nor excellent. Mostly ranging from good to very good to good again.
Which recordings do you think are excellent? Especially of concertos 11-16?
Peter Rösel also recorded several CDs of Mozart Piano Concertos, I have been curious about them if for no other reason they are sponsored by my favorite watch company :laugh:
But I never bought any as I already have too many of the Mozart Piano Concertos through numerous box sets and haven't ever gone out of my way to buy single discs of the concertos.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61NMmGqJ94L._SX466_.jpg)
I caved in and got the Peter Serkin set as I found it for an acceptable price (fortunately, I don't remember exactly how much it usually went for several years ago when it was new). I have not yet listened to the two solo discs (sonatas K 457 and 533/494 as well as fantasias and stuff, including K 475 stretched to 19 min! normal is around 12-13) and I'd have to give the first disc with 449, 450 and the double another go but the concertos seem to be good to excellent, as I hoped for. K 459 is among the best I've heard and I haven't heard a better K 451 (but admittedly have heard far fewer than in the case 453 or 459).
The also benefit from A. Schneider's conducting; like Vegh, Sascha Schneider was both a great string quartet player (Budapest Q) and alert Mozart conductor (although I think Vegh for Schiff has the edge, probably also because of superior sound quality; the 1970s CBS sound is decent but no match for the late 1980s digital Decca, and Vegh also has the Mozarteum all star woodwind players)
The piano+woodwind quintet does not seem quite up there but I don't the piece all that well and have to check with some other recordings (I have Brendel and Kocsis); I certainly don't need another clarinet quintet and used to dislike Stoltzman but this seems also quite interesting, if quite slow.
While it's true that Mozart expands the "symphonic" dimension in several of the concertos beginning with #20 K 466 and I hesitate to call any Mozart "underrated", I do think that the 9 concerti 11-19 are a bit underappreciated, expecially the first 6 of them. Even the chamber scale K 413-14 are really nice and #16 K 451, a piece I overlooked or didn't much like for years, is brilliant. I prefer 16-19 to 21 (the most famous Mozart pc but I never liked it all that much, I preferred 20 and 27 since I first heard them as a teenager), 25 or 26.
For sets I have:
Schiff/Vegh
Perahia
Anda
What other set should I get who would contrast with these and also be great?
Barenboim's first set, Ashkenazy's and Uchida/Tate are on my short list.
Quote from: George on June 16, 2023, 07:52:06 PMFor sets I have:
Schiff/Vegh
Perahia
Anda
What other set should I get who would contrast with these and also be great?
Barenboim's first set, Ashkenazy's and Uchida/Tate are on my short list.
Horszowski; Zacharias's first set (not Lausanne)
Barenboim's first if you want something more weighty, "Beethovenian", sometimes a bit slow.
Quote from: George on June 16, 2023, 07:52:06 PMBarenboim's first set, Ashkenazy's and Uchida/Tate are on my short list.
I prefer Barenboim's second set, though both are very good. Zacharias is a must have, whether his EMI or MDG set. I prefer the MDG set, but either will do just fine.
Barenboim's 2nd (which I don't have complete, missing about 3 disc's worth with earlyish concerti) is also very good, mostly very good sound, although some are live with slight audience noises but I recall the earlier set as a bit more distinctive (for whatever reason IIRC the English chamber orchestra sounds bigger than the Berlin Phil) which includes that some concerti are weaker than in the later one; e.g. K 459 is better with Berlin, IIRC.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Jj9GYV1VL._SL500_.jpg)
After sampling more of the above, I found myself practically hypnotized by Uchida's gorgeous take on the slow movements, so I ordered her set. It arrives tomorrow.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Jj9GYV1VL._SL400_.jpg)
Enjoying a first listen to the penultimate disc in this set, a set that I have quickly fallen in love with. The orchestra sound is dynamic and warm, with a lovely low end sound that I don't often hear in classical recordings. Uchida plays beautifully, with a gentle touch. This just might be the set I would take to the proverbial desert island.
Quote from: George on June 27, 2023, 06:17:37 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Jj9GYV1VL._SL400_.jpg)
Enjoying a first listen to the penultimate disc in this set, a set that I have quickly fallen in love with. The orchestra sound is dynamic and warm, with a lovely low end sound that I don't often hear in classical recordings. Uchida plays beautifully, with a gentle touch. This just might be the set I would take to the proverbial desert island.
I'll have to see if I can sample this. I have her Schubert set which I've enjoyed. :)
PD
Quote from: George on June 27, 2023, 06:17:37 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Jj9GYV1VL._SL400_.jpg)
Enjoying a first listen to the penultimate disc in this set, a set that I have quickly fallen in love with. The orchestra sound is dynamic and warm, with a lovely low end sound that I don't often hear in classical recordings. Uchida plays beautifully, with a gentle touch. This just might be the set I would take to the proverbial desert island.
I feel like I want to like that set more than I do. I should listen to it some more.
And great to see the word (penultimate) used correctly! It seems like the majority of time people use it to mean "even more ultimate," rather than "second to last." :)
What I really think I need now is the Haebler set. I've ignored Haebler until now (who knows why) but some enthusiastic mentions I've seen somewhere make me think that might be a big mistake. Can't find much of it on streaming, however. There is a colossal box set, though.
Well, I forgot to report back on my order from HERE (https://laboiteamusique.eu/product/mozart-complete-piano-concertos-jos-van-immerseel/) - I never received the box (3rd pic below) , they must have ran out at the time of my order; So still have Bilson in my collection. Now the dark blue box is available for about $50 USD on Amazon but apparently the 10 CDs are in separate jewel cases, i.e. too BIG a space for my needs. Dave :)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 30, 2022, 09:35:02 AMLast few days I've been doing some comparison of Bilson vs. Immerseel on fortepianos in these works (I own Bilson & Sofronitsky) and have never enjoyed the the balance between Bilson's instrument and Gardiner's orchestra which to my ears 'drowns out' the fortepiano when they are playing together - listening to Immerseel on Spotify and don't have the same aural experience.
SO, I've been looking for Immerseel's box at a decent price and found this place in Brussels La Boitea Musique (https://laboiteamusique.eu/product/mozart-complete-piano-concertos-jos-van-immerseel/) which apparently 'on sale' has the box pictured at the bottom (10 CDs in cardboard sleeves, I believe) - price to me is basically $41 even w/ the steep shipping (plus the Euro & Dollar are at par). Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51z4CE13IAL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41TWW1VFGEL.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gNHZzf4/0/3edd9c2f/O/MozartImmerseel.png)
Piano Concertos on fortepiano w/ Bezuidenhout - just finished listening to 2 of his 3 releases on Spotify and enjoyed, however, the attached reviews have been mixed - plus, these were recorded from 2012 to 2022 and I won't be around if he decides to do a disc every 5 years or so - ;D
Now, I've not auditioned any of Ronald Brautigam's recordings - his BIS box (last pic below) is expensive; the best price I could find was $72 from PrestoMusic (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8846632--mozart-complete-piano-concertos) - not bad for 12 SCADs - I own his Mozart sonata jewel case stuffed w/ 6 discs! Will need to do some Spotify listening of Ronald but any comments from PI aficionados who have heard him? Thanks - Dave :)
P.S. for those who own Brautigam please comment whether these discs are in thin sleeves or each in its original jewel case (a game breaker for me).
(https://www.harmoniamundi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/albums-2779.jpg.webp) (https://www.harmoniamundi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/albums-2187.jpg.webp) (https://www.harmoniamundi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/albums-1856.jpg.webp) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91uijunnjaL._SL1500_.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 28, 2023, 08:46:06 AMNow, I've not auditioned any of Ronald Brautigam's recordings - his BIS box (last pic below) is expensive; the best price I could find was $72 from PrestoMusic (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8846632--mozart-complete-piano-concertos) - not bad for 12 SCADs - I own his Mozart sonata jewel case stuffed w/ 6 discs! Will need to do some Spotify listening of Ronald but any comments from PI aficionados who have heard him? Thanks - Dave :)
I love them, as much for the PI orchestra as for Brautigam's contribution. I have the original individual releases so I don't know what the format of the box set is.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 28, 2023, 06:52:33 AMI feel like I want to like that set more than I do. I should listen to it some more.
And great to see the word (penultimate) used correctly! It seems like the majority of time people use it to mean "even more ultimate," rather than "second to last." :)
What I really think I need now is the Haebler set. I've ignored Haebler until now (who knows why) but some enthusiastic mentions I've seen somewhere make me think that might be a big mistake. Can't find much of it on streaming, however. There is a colossal box set, though.
I really like Haebler's work on the Beethoven violin sonatas with Szeryng, but everything else by her that I have sampled didn't move me.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 28, 2023, 06:52:33 AMAnd great to see the word (penultimate) used correctly! It seems like the majority of time people use it to mean "even more ultimate," rather than "second to last." :)
At school we learned the word peripenultimate. I don't think I've ever used it or heard it used other than by my old head teacher.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 28, 2023, 08:46:06 AMNow, I've not auditioned any of Ronald Brautigam's recordings - his BIS box (last pic below) is expensive; the best price I could find was $72
Dave I own the box set. Each cd is in a sleeve. What gives the box its width is the inclusion of all booklets (from the individual releases) instead of a unified booklet.
I thought I didn't pay as much, but for the life of me I can't find AT ALL where I ordered it.
Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2023, 01:33:07 PMI thought I didn't pay as much, but for the life of me I can't find AT ALL where I ordered it.
It was Walmart and it was about the same price. Walmart doesn't include any details about orders in their emails which is why I couldn't find it.
Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2023, 01:43:32 PMIt was Walmart and it was about the same price. Walmart doesn't include any details about orders in their emails which is why I couldn't find it.
🤣 😀
PD
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 28, 2023, 08:46:06 AMPiano Concertos on fortepiano w/ Bezuidenhout - just finished listening to 2 of his 3 releases on Spotify and enjoyed, however, the attached reviews have been mixed - plus, these were recorded from 2012 to 2022 and I won't be around if he decides to do a disc every 5 years or so - ;D
Now, I've not auditioned any of Ronald Brautigam's recordings - his BIS box (last pic below) is expensive; the best price I could find was $72 from PrestoMusic (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8846632--mozart-complete-piano-concertos) - not bad for 12 SCADs - I own his Mozart sonata jewel case stuffed w/ 6 discs! Will need to do some Spotify listening of Ronald but any comments from PI aficionados who have heard him? Thanks - Dave :)
P.S. for those who own Brautigam please comment whether these discs are in thin sleeves or each in its original jewel case (a game breaker for me).
(https://www.harmoniamundi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/albums-2779.jpg.webp) (https://www.harmoniamundi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/albums-2187.jpg.webp) (https://www.harmoniamundi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/albums-1856.jpg.webp) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91uijunnjaL._SL1500_.jpg)
There is one more (isn't that always the case ;D ) HIP cycle that is little known and quite good - Viviana Sofronitsky. I like Brautigam, I'd own both if I listened to this music more. These HIPsters rarely play Schnabel's cadenzas so that is one boo from me ;)
Quote from: Atriod on June 28, 2023, 03:59:57 PMThere is one more (isn't that always the case ;D ) HIP cycle that is little known and quite good - Viviana Sofronitsky. I like Brautigam, I'd own both if I listened to this music more. These HIPsters rarely play Schnabel's cadenzas so that is one boo from me ;)
Oh yes Sofronitsky was my favorite! Set is a bit harder to find now. I say was because I think Brautigam is every bit as good.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2023, 01:10:40 PMAt school we learned the word peripenultimate. I don't think I've ever used it or heard it used other than by my old head teacher.
Have not heard this one. But antepenultimate (third to last). For whatever reasons syllables (for stress) are counted from the last one (ultima) in languages, especially in Latin and Greek, although we usually used the German terms (like "vorvorletzte").
Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2023, 01:43:32 PMIt was Walmart and it was about the same price. Walmart doesn't include any details about orders in their emails which is why I couldn't find it.
You can buy CD boxed sets with period instrument performances of Mozart Piano Concerti in Walmart. What a country! :)
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2023, 11:13:40 PMHave not heard this one. But antepenultimate (third to last). For whatever reasons syllables (for stress) are counted from the last one (ultima) in languages, especially in Latin and Greek, although we usually used the German terms (like "vorvorletzte").
Yes, we used to use a book called Abbott and Mansfield's Primer of Greek Grammar. There were two things I could never get my heard round - verbs in μι and the rules of accentuation.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 28, 2023, 11:33:11 PMYou can buy CD boxed sets with period instrument performances of Mozart Piano Concerti in Walmart. What a country! :)
A few years ago I bought
Graham Greene's
The Power and the Glory in Kaufland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaufland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaufland)
Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2023, 01:33:07 PMDave I own the box set. Each cd is in a sleeve. What gives the box its width is the inclusion of all booklets (from the individual releases) instead of a unified booklet.
I thought I didn't pay as much, but for the life of me I can't find AT ALL where I ordered it.
Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2023, 07:12:47 PMOh yes Sofronitsky was my favorite! Set is a bit harder to find now. I say was because I think Brautigam is every bit as good.
Thanks
David for the info above; actually I sent BIS an email and the founder/CEO, Robert von Bahr responded w/ the same description quoted below; so do I want to put out $72 (plus $10+ S/H) and order the discounted box from PrestoMusic? BTW, I've Sofronitsky and will definitely keep although I'm liking the 'bands' w/ Brautigam better (been doing some Spotify listening). Dave :)
QuoteNo, it is a compact Box with 12 SACDs in paper sleeves inside plus booklets. The width is 4 cm, corresponding to 4 normal jewel cases.
Tighter it cannot be...
Best - Robert (von Bahr, CEO, BIS Records)
Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2023, 07:12:47 PMOh yes Sofronitsky was my favorite! Set is a bit harder to find now. I say was because I think Brautigam is every bit as good.
There's Sofronitsky on Qobuz.
I did manage to hear some Haebler in the Mozart Piano Concerti. Quite good, but not a revelation that I must have, given that there are so many other options on my (virtual) shelves.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2023, 10:39:38 AMI did manage to hear some Haebler in the Mozart Piano Concerti. Quite good, but not a revelation that I must have, given that there are so many other options on my (virtual) shelves.
Which concerts have you heard? Just today I listened to the KV 242 "Lodron" for three pianos and I enjoyed it greatly, not least for the sound. Even through my low-end equipment I was able to distinctly hear all three pianos, left, center and right, as well as lots of orchestral details, both strings and winds. A beguiling aural experience.
I figured I should give Haebler a more fair trial, and listened to her recording of the 23rd Concerto, with Rowicki and the LSO (one of the handful that can be found on my streaming service). It was pleasant and skillfully performed, but didn't really expand my horizons, given that I have the sets by Brendel and others on modern piano with a similar ethos. Then, on a lark, I listened to one movement by Gaza Anda (the finale of Concerto #21). I had neglected this famous recording, probably because it has always appeared with reference to the film, Elvira Madigan, which was a turn-off for me.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51IrjMguZkL.jpg)
But wow! Brilliant! Unfortunately it appears the full set is not streamed, so I have to think about whether I should look for the full cycle.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 02, 2023, 07:32:37 AMI figured I should give Haebler a more fair trial, and listened to her recording of the 23rd Concerto, with Rowicki and the LSO (one of the handful that can be found on my streaming service). It was pleasant and skillfully performed, but didn't really expand my horizons, given that I have the sets by Brendel and others on modern piano with a similar ethos. Then, on a lark, I listened to one movement by Gaza Anda (the finale of Concerto #21). I had neglected this famous recording, probably because it has always appeared with reference to the film, Elvira Madigan, which was a turn-off for me.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51IrjMguZkL.jpg)
But wow! Brilliant! Unfortunately it appears the full set is not streamed, so I have to think about whether I should look for the full cycle.
I recently was asked which set of Mozart concertos I would take to a desert island. Anda was my pick. Uchida is my newest set, so I'd be tempted to take that one, but I think in the end I'd choose Anda. Schiff and Perahia are both up there, for different reasons, but Anda is my tried and true set. It was gifted to me by a kind GMGer a number of years ago (thank you!)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 02, 2023, 07:32:37 AM.........Then, on a lark, I listened to one movement by Gaza Anda (the finale of Concerto #21). I had neglected this famous recording, probably because it has always appeared with reference to the film, Elvira Madigan, which was a turn-off for me.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51IrjMguZkL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51vcQpO5rxL.jpg)
But wow! Brilliant! Unfortunately it appears the full set is not streamed, so I have to think about whether I should look for the full cycle.
Elvira Madigan on release was an early introduction to classical music for me and I was enamored w/ Wolfie's No. 21 - I have the Anda box inserted above; there are some 'used' sets on the Amazon MP for $30+ - can't remember what I paid a while back and have not checked other sellers - good luck. Dave :)
I recently got the complete "old" Zacharias recording (rec. ca. 1981-91 with different conductors and orchestras). I had got one half of this very cheaply at some earlier time, and eventually decided to get the whole lot.
There are a few things a bit special. Zacharias plays his own cadenzas (unless there are Mozart cadenzas, so no Beethoven cadenzas in K 466) and within this has added a woodwind transition in K 482,i, a musical clock (IIRC it's actually an electronic keyboard) in K 537,i and the d minor tutti chord from Don Giovanni ouverture in a historical recording in K 466,iii) (I don't care much for that last "gag" but the others are nice and work well.)
Zacharias must also have been among he first with a very flowing tempo in the K 467 andante (about 5 instead fo 7-8 min).
The general approach is lively, some of the accompaniments can be a bit generic
This was probably a bit more interesting >30 years when it came out as we have since then many lively, lean, chamberish, today we'd say HIP influenced interpretations.
Among my favorites of Zacharias' are K 238 (almost as good as Kocsis, with better orchestral contribution), 414, 449, 451 (almost as good as P.Serkin/Schneider), K 467 and 537 mentioned above and maybe also 503. Everything else is at least very solid, the two minor mode concerti could be a bit more dramatic, two of my favorite pieces K 271 and 453 are also a bit on the cool side.
It's still quite cheap, either concertos only or a more recent box with the sonatas and some more fillers, incl.the double concerti and sonata K 448 wit Marie Luise Hinrichs (recorded a few years later).
Quote from: George on July 02, 2023, 07:41:07 AMI recently was asked which set of Mozart concertos I would take to a desert island. Anda was my pick. Uchida is my newest set, so I'd be tempted to take that one, but I think in the end I'd choose Anda. Schiff and Perahia are both up there, for different reasons, but Anda is my tried and true set. It was gifted to me by a kind GMGer a number of years ago (thank you!)
I have to admire Uchida's skill but her approach strikes me as too "precious."
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 02, 2023, 08:05:04 AMElvira Madigan on release was an early introduction to classical music for me and I was enamored w/ Wolfie's No. 21 - I have the Anda box inserted above; there are some 'used' sets on the Amazon MP for $30+ - can't remember what I paid a while back and have not checked other sellers - good luck. Dave :)
I did come across the box offered used by Amazon MPs in the 30+ range, but ultimately decided to spring for the 17 CD set with all of Geza Anna's Deutsche Grammophon recordings, new for a bit over $60. Having all of the Bartok and Schumann would be worth the extra expense, especially since if I got the Mozart Box I would feel like an idiot buying the complete set later.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91cvM4XdTRL._SL1500_.jpg)
Quote from: Jo498 on July 02, 2023, 09:14:52 AMI recently got the complete "old" Zacharias recording (rec. ca. 1981-91 with different conductors and orchestras). I had got one half of this very cheaply at some earlier time, and eventually decided to get the whole lot.
...
I have them in a set that includes the piano sonatas. The piano sonata recordings are extraordinary. I have not gotten around to the concerti, and am undecided whether to start with his EMI recordings or later MDG set.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 04, 2023, 05:45:28 AMThe piano sonata recordings are extraordinary.
Currently my go to set, together with Pires (Denon) and Fazil Say.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 06:13:08 AMCurrently my go to set, together with Pires (Denon) and Fazil Say.
The two poles of my Mozart Piano Sonata universe are Zacharias and van Oort. There are other constellations, such as Schiff, Brautigam, etc.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 04, 2023, 05:45:28 AMI have them in a set that includes the piano sonatas. The piano sonata recordings are extraordinary. I have not gotten around to the concerti, and am undecided whether to start with his EMI recordings or later MDG set.
The MDG set is all conducted by the pianist using the same orchestra. The ones I've heard all seem to embody a very similar conception of Mozart's music, a very sunny conception. The EMI has a few different conductors and orchestras, and it also exemplifies a more daring soloist, daring to the point of being occasionally provocative.
I just listened to some samples of both Zacharias cycles plus Anda, not being familiar with any of the three. Spent 15 minutes bouncing around between various movements. Mandryka's comments reflect that very limited experience - the MDG Zacharias sparkled in the sunny concertos, and was a little bit light-seeming in the D minor, while the EMI Zacharias had greater pianistic energy (and occasionally improvised bits outside cadenzas) but less orchestral detail. Inspired by Jo498, I checked the cadenzas of the D minor finale. In the MDG cycle, he has the live orchestra play the Don Giovanni chord that on EMI was inserted from another recording. ;D
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2023, 06:59:22 AMI just listened to some samples of both Zacharias cycles plus Anda, not being familiar with any of the three. Spent 15 minutes bouncing around between various movements. Mandryka's comments reflect that very limited experience - the MDG Zacharias sparkled in the sunny concertos, and was a little bit light-seeming in the D minor, while the EMI Zacharias had greater pianistic energy (and occasionally improvised bits outside cadenzas) but less orchestral detail. Inspired by Jo498, I checked the cadenzas of the D minor finale. In the MDG cycle, he has the live orchestra play the Don Giovanni chord that on EMI was inserted from another recording. ;D
What do you think of the Camerata Academica on Anda's cycle? It would be interesting to hear the take from fresh ears. It would be my sole cycle to keep if forced to keep one. But like
@Jo498 's breakdown most of my top performances (agree with him on those Peter Serkin selections) come from outside cycles and often not with chamber orchestras.
edit: interestingly two pianists I don't like have made some of the best Mozart PC recordings I've heard- Brendel and Curzon. Brendel not from the Marriner cycle but the ones with Mackerras who provides a more interesting accompaniment than Marriner.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 02, 2023, 07:32:37 AMI figured I should give Haebler a more fair trial, and listened to her recording of the 23rd Concerto, with Rowicki and the LSO (one of the handful that can be found on my streaming service). It was pleasant and skillfully performed, but didn't really expand my horizons, given that I have the sets by Brendel and others on modern piano with a similar ethos. Then, on a lark, I listened to one movement by Gaza Anda (the finale of Concerto #21). I had neglected this famous recording, probably because it has always appeared with reference to the film, Elvira Madigan, which was a turn-off for me.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51IrjMguZkL.jpg)
But wow! Brilliant! Unfortunately it appears the full set is not streamed, so I have to think about whether I should look for the full cycle.
Definitely that's one of the best single discs of Mozart in my collection. I don't have the full set.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 04, 2023, 06:23:05 AMThe two poles of my Mozart Piano Sonata universe are Zacharias and van Oort. There are other constellations, such as Schiff, Brautigam, etc.
I think Mozart's piano sonatas have been well served on recordings. Two which have not been menționed yet that I enjoy are Reine Gianoli and Eric Heidsieck. From what I sampled, Vlado Perlemuter is also to my liking.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 07:25:45 AMI think Mozart's piano sonatas have been well served on recordings. Two which have not been menționed yet that I enjoy are Reine Gianoli and Eric Heidsieck. From what I sampled, Vlado Perlemuter is also to my liking.
Eric Heidsieck on EMI/Erato?
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:29:37 AMEric Heidsieck on EMI/Erato?
I think so, yes. Or is it EMI Japan? I will check tonight and let you know.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 04, 2023, 07:19:49 AMI don't have the full set.
You should rectify the situation at once.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 07:25:45 AMI think Mozart's piano sonatas have been well served on recordings.
I don't agree with this actually. I mean, obviously lots of pianists have played the notes in the right order, but I think it's real hard to turn the sonatas into something that sounds poetic, worthwhile.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 07:25:45 AMEric Heidsieck.
Concerning his big survey of Mozart sonatas, which was I think made in Japan as you say, for me, the "embellishments" don't add anything, on the contrary - they subtract. Rubato, for example, which seems to me random, pointless. All I get from what he does in these sonatas is the sense of a pianist messing around, experimenting - and the experiments not really working for me.
He also recorded a Mozart disc in 1970 for Toshiba which I also can't handle.
By the way, I've kind of decided that at the moment there's really only one Mozart modern piano sonata pianist I kind of need, that's Leon McCawley.
Honestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 04, 2023, 07:49:09 AMI don't agree with this actually. I mean, obviously lots of pianists have played the notes in the right order, but I think it's real hard to turn the sonatas into something that sounds poetic, worthwhile.
Just sounds like a deficiency of the sonatas themselves not the performers.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 04, 2023, 07:49:09 AMI don't agree with this actually. I mean, obviously lots of pianists have played the notes in the right order, but I think it's real hard to turn the sonatas into something that sounds poetic, worthwhile.
Concerning his big survey of Mozart sonatas, which was I think made in Japan as you say, for me, the "embellishments" don't add anything, on the contrary - they subtract. Rubato, for example, which seems too me random, pointless. All I get from what he does in these sonatas is the sense of a pianist messing around, experimenting - and the experiments not really working for me.
He also recorded a Mozart disc in 1970 for Toshiba which I also can't handle.
By the way, I've kind of decided that at the moment there's really only one Mozart modern piano sonata pianist I kind of need, that's Leon McCawley.
Chacun à son goût, cher ami. ;)
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:54:16 AMHonestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.
Just sounds like a deficiency of the sonatas themselves not the performers.
I disagree. Strongly.
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:54:16 AMHonestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.
Just sounds like a deficiency of the sonatas themselves not the performers.
Music's an odd thing. I'm in a good relation with Mozart's sonatas, they're always welcome in my house, but less so with Haydn's or Beethoven's. It's not a question of deficiencies or tiers or grand schemes or anything like that - it's a question of a person and a bit of music, a style, clicking.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 07:31:44 AMI think so, yes. Or is it EMI Japan? I will check tonight and let you know.
The complete cycle is on Victor.
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:54:16 AMHonestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.
That was the received wisdom that I accepted until I listened to them recently (Zacharias). I haven't listened the recordings the Mandrake mentioned, but it strikes me that puffin up the sonatas into something more grand than they are risks losing the elegance in simplicity.
I recall that some of the very earliest recordings Ciccolini made were of Mozart sonatas. Maybe I'll check them out again.
My opinion of the sonatas are taken as a whole cycle. There are some fantastic stand out sonatas in there like the almost operatic/dramatic K310 that anyone would be able to pick out if heard apart from the cycle.
The sonatas in a way remind me of a joke on Reddit where someone asked to rank their favorite Haydn symphonies and the ensuing jokes that followed. Basically aside from some they blend into a big soup. Really great music for me (and I guess others) is distinct and stands out.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 04, 2023, 08:00:08 AMThat was the received wisdom that I accepted until I listened to them recently (Zacharias). I haven't listened the recordings the Mandrake mentioned, but it strikes me that puffin up the sonatas into something more grand than they are risks losing the elegance in simplicity.
I recall that some of the very earliest recordings Ciccolini made were of Mozart sonatas. Maybe I'll check them out again.
I've listened to them a lot from many different pianists, performers can certainly make a big impact. The only cycle I really disliked was Ingrid Haebler on Denon. I did a big cull off a couple of years ago and the two I decided to keep were Pires Denon (Brilliant Classics) and PBS on Astree/period instruments. The commonality between both cycles is both play with plenty of brio and not in a precious style. I have others as part of the huge box sets like Arrau Complete Philips.
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:54:16 AMHonestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.
Just sounds like a deficiency of the sonatas themselves not the performers.
I agree with this. Thinking of the music I find the sonatas first and foremost entertaining, and many years ago I began in my usual completist way to collect different recordings and owned about fourteen when I found out that the sonatas simply didn't wear well enough in these ears. I think they miss some emotional depth. So I culled most of the recordings and kept only van Oort, Badura-Skoda (PI) and Pires I. And I rarely listen to them.
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:19:10 AMWhat do you think of the Camerata Academica on Anda's cycle? It would be interesting to hear the take from fresh ears. It would be my sole cycle to keep if forced to keep one.
In the finale of 21 (complimented earlier in this conversation) the orchestra sounded minimally rehearsed in both the good and bad senses - spontaneous and fresh, but not fully together. I will probably choose 1-2 concertos for complete comparison listening when back at the office in a couple weeks. (the office is being painted; I stream at work and play CDs at home.)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 04, 2023, 07:59:33 AMMusic's an odd thing. I'm in a good relation with Mozart's sonatas, they're always welcome in my house, but less so with Haydn's or Beethoven's. It's not a question of deficiencies or tiers or grand schemes or anything like that - it's a question of a person and a bit of music, a style, clicking.
Imo, of the big names the finest, most consistently good cycle of piano sonatas is Haydn's, followed by Mozart's. Apart from a handful and a few more, I have no much use for Beethoven's.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 09:05:03 AMImo, of the big names the finest, most consistently good cycle of piano sonatas is Haydn's, followed by Mozart's. Apart from a handful and a few more, I have no much use for Beethoven's.
Imo, of the big names the finest, most consistently good cycle of piano sonatas is Beethoven's, followed by Haydn's. Apart from a few, I have no much use for Mozart's.
What is heard depends on the ear.
Quote from: premont on July 04, 2023, 08:33:21 AMI agree with this. Thinking of the music I find the sonatas first and foremost entertaining,
Which is exactly what they were written for: entertainment. They were not intended as grand statements about life and humanity, nor were they vehicles for unbridled personal expression --- such pretentions and conceits were unkown of, incomprehensible and inconceivable prior to Beethoven. They were written mostly for pupils to have something to play in order to display their profficiency and taste. This doesn't mean they are emotionless and cold, far from it, it only means that we should listen to them with pre-Beethovenian ears and sensibility. They have an innocence of feeling and expression, a freshness and a fragrance that are galaxise away from the self-conscious, in-your-face and ultimately tiresome Beethovenian incessant heroism and grand-standing. In short, to use Schiller's terminology, they are exquisitely naive, as opposed to Beethoven's horribly sentimental.
QuoteI think they miss some emotional depth.
See above. Emotional depth is not the same as emotionless --- and in nany case, Classical Era reserved emotional depth for vocal music, sacred or opera. Instrumental music was never meant to plumb such depths, and thanks God for that!
I'm rather like
@Atriod. All pre-Beethoven sonata cycles tend to sound alike to me, including Haydn and Mozart. The same goes for Beethoven's contemporaries such as Clementi and Dussek.
As I write this, it occurs to me that after Beethoven there are sonata cycles other than Schubert (and here again I'm not too impressed). A lot of composers wrote sonatas, as one-offs, but no one seems to have tried to fully explore it. Chopin wrote three; I can't think of anyone who wrote more than that. It's as if LvB scared them all off.
Edit. My mind is mushy: Scriabin, Miaskovsky, Medtner, Prokofiev. 20th Century (more or less) Russians.
Any non-Russians? .
Reverting back to Mozart: any opinions on Glenn Gould's recordings? Who claimed to hate them even while playing them.
Quote from: JBS on July 04, 2023, 09:31:59 AMI'm rather like @Atriod. All pre-Beethoven sonata cycles tend to sound alike to me, including Haydn and Mozart. The same goes for Beethoven's contemporaries such as Clementi and Dussek.
As I write this, it occurs to me that after Beethoven there are sonata cycles other than Schubert (and here again I'm not too impressed). A lot of composers wrote sonatas, as one-offs, but no one seems to have tried to fully explore it. Chopin wrote three; I can't think of anyone who wrote more than that. It's as if LvB scared them all off.
I vividly remember the Romanian film director
Paul Barbăneagră stating in all earnest and on record* something to the effect that Beethoven dragged music into a quagmire out of which it has not been lifted ever since. Sometimes, nay, oftenly, I feel in complete agreement with that, with the only correction that it's not that much a question of Beethoven himself but more of his epigones and misguided posterity. ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Barb%C4%83_Neagr%C4%83 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Barb%C4%83_Neagr%C4%83)
* many, many, many moons ago, in a live, Romanian state TV station show dedicated to classical music --- yes, there was that back then, go figure! --- moderated by a kind of Romanian Dave Hurwitz, not the least similarity being the man was also Jewish. :D
Quote from: JBS on July 04, 2023, 09:35:03 AMReverting back to Mozart: any opinions on Glenn Gould's recordings? Who claimed to hate them even while playing them.
My evolving reactions to his Alla Turca: (1) he's ripe for the madhouse (if you guys know what I mean...), (2) well, fater all one can play it like that and why not?, (3) it's just one out of a myriad equally valid but not equally liked performances. Overall, worth listening to once in a blue moon.
I once thought Mozart too simple and found Haydn to not take things far enough. At that time, Beethoven was my favorite composer. I thought I was getting Mozart and Haydn within Beethoven's music. I no longer think any of the above is true.
The older I get, the more I need Mozart, Haydn and Chopin. I still want Beethoven, I just don't need him nearly as much.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 03, 2023, 10:17:30 PMI did come across the box offered used by Amazon MPs in the 30+ range, but ultimately decided to spring for the 17 CD set with all of Geza Anna's Deutsche Grammophon recordings, new for a bit over $60. Having all of the Bartok and Schumann would be worth the extra expense, especially since if I got the Mozart Box I would feel like an idiot buying the complete set later.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91cvM4XdTRL._SL100_.jpg)
Nice grab! And nice timing! Looks like this comes out soon. Outside of the Mozart Piano Concertos, the Bartok Concertos and a few Orfeo CDs, I don't have any Anda CDs. Hope you enjoy it!
Quote from: premont on July 04, 2023, 09:15:33 AMWhat is heard depends on the ear.
Finally, you frankly and openly acknowledge that what any given composer may have intended with their definitive scores means nothing --- and that whatever really matters is how the music is perceived by the ear of the flesh-and-blood listener, which said ear could not perceive anything were it not for a flesh-and-blood performer. Thank you very much, and kudos! 8)
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:19:10 AMWhat do you think of the Camerata Academica on Anda's cycle? It would be interesting to hear the take from fresh ears. It would be my sole cycle to keep if forced to keep one. But like @Jo498 's breakdown most of my top performances (agree with him on those Peter Serkin selections) come from outside cycles and often not with chamber orchestras.
I am probably one of the few here who in dubio cares more for the orchestra than the pianist in these pieces. Esp. in the more "symphonic pieces" from about #19 onwards. This might be one reason I consider Barenboim's (both) still quite worthwhile. In any case. more concerto recordings with Peter Serkin/Schneider or Gulda/Harnoncourt would have been marvellous.
Quote from: George on July 04, 2023, 09:55:43 AMThe older I get, the more I need Mozart, Haydn and Chopin. I still want Beethoven, I just don't need him nearly as much.
My thoughts exactly, George, my thoughts exactly. 8)
How old are you, btw? (I've turned 50 last December.)
Quote from: Jo498 on July 04, 2023, 10:22:34 AMI am probably one of the few here who in dubio cares more for the orchestra than the pianist in these pieces.
I wonder what Mozart would have thought of this, given that he wrote all his concertos to showcase himself... ;D
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 10:25:10 AMMy thoughts exactly, George, my thoughts exactly. 8)
How old are you, btw? (I've turned 50 last December.)
I'm a couple of years ahead of you. $:)
Quote from: Jo498 on July 04, 2023, 10:22:34 AMI am probably one of the few here who in dubio cares more for the orchestra than the pianist in these pieces.
If so, Schiff/Vegh should be right up your alley.
Quote from: George on July 04, 2023, 10:31:12 AMI'm a couple of years ahead of you. $:)
Blimey, I was under the impression that you were a couple of years behind me. :D
Anyway, we are on the same page! Cheers, my friend!
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:54:16 AMHonestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.
Just sounds like a deficiency of the sonatas themselves not the performers.
I mostly agree; they are nice works but I'd miss only a handful. As a "cycle" (or rather "body of works") they are pretty inconsequential, no comparison to the piano concerti.
Although I personally love many of them, find them more underrated and should be more popular, I'd overall say the same about Haydn's piano sonatas.
If one gets the recent white box of Peter Serkin's Mozart, there are broad, dark, almost romantic recordings of two sonatas and some other pieces.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 10:27:12 AMI wonder what Mozart would have thought of this, given that he wrote all his concertos to showcase himself... ;D
If you've heard them on a historical instrument, you realize that this is puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star.
Quote from: George on July 04, 2023, 10:32:24 AMIf so, Schiff/Vegh should be right up your alley.
yes, I have most of them. Schiff is sometimes a bit too puny and I dislike that they use strings only in KV 414/449 (so I assume it's the same in 413+415, I didn't bother to buy).
Quote from: Jo498 on July 04, 2023, 10:43:59 AMIf you've heard them on a historical instrument, you realize that this is puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star.
This is exactly why I don't care a fig for HIP performances in which the keyboard is just puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star. This music was neither a recitativo secco, nor an overture, it was a concerto for soloist and orchestra --- therefore any performance, HIP or modern, which drowns the soloist in an orchestral mass of sounds is an inaccurate travesty and should not be taken seriously.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 04, 2023, 10:46:34 AMyes, I have most of them. Schiff is sometimes a bit too puny and I dislike that they use strings only in KV 414/449 (so I assume it's the same in 413+415, I didn't bother to buy).
I agree that Schiff is too puny. It's the set's biggest flaw. :(
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 09:29:49 AMWhich is exactly what they were written for: entertainment. They were written mostly for pupils to have something to play in order to display their profficiency and taste.They have an innocence of feeling and expression, a freshness and a fragrance that are galaxise away from the self-conscious, in-your-face and ultimately tiresome Beethovenian incessant heroism and grand-standing. In short, to use Schiller's terminology, they are exquisitely naive, as opposed to Beethoven's horribly sentimental.
Entertainment doesn't imply much reflection nor thoughtfulness. In one ear, out the other. This is how I feel about much (but certainly not all) of Mozart's music, and from a mental hygienic point of view I have no use for this kind of music.
And I think it's over the point to say that Beethoven's music is sentimental. This label should be reserved to the late romantic composers.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 09:29:49 AM--- and in nany case, Classical Era reserved emotional depth for vocal music, sacred or opera. Instrumental music was never meant to plumb such depths, and thanks God for that!
While I think your description fits most of what I have heard of Haydn's instrumental music I don't think it is true of all Mozart's instrumental music. What about the two last symphonies, the piano concerto in c-minor and the string quintet in g-minor eg.?
Quote from: Jo498 on July 04, 2023, 10:43:04 AMAs a "cycle" (or rather "body of works")
The concept of "cycle" or "body of works" is highly anachronistic when applied to Classical Era music, Haydn and Mozart included --- and so is the very concept of mere "work". They did not compose "works" back then, they simply wrote what they were comissioned to write.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 04, 2023, 10:43:04 AMI mostly agree; they are nice works but I'd miss only a handful. As a "cycle" (or rather "body of works") they are pretty inconsequential, no comparison to the piano concerti.
Although I personally love many of them, find them more underrated and should be more popular, I'd overall say the same about Haydn's piano sonatas.
If one gets the recent white box of Peter Serkin's Mozart, there are broad, dark, almost romantic recordings of two sonatas and some other pieces.
Serkin might have been putting a maxim of Vladimir Horowitz into practice:
Play Mozart as if he was Chopin and play Chopin as if he was Mozart.
[Source: the liner notes from Horowitz's recording of some Mozart Piano Sonatas.]
Quote from: JBS on July 04, 2023, 09:35:03 AMReverting back to Mozart: any opinions on Glenn Gould's recordings? Who claimed to hate them even while playing them.
Perfectly acceptable K 491, especially the studio performance IMO, but the one from Stockholm is fine too. And a listenable K 330 on Orfeo.
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2023, 06:59:22 AMI just listened to some samples of both Zacharias cycles plus Anda, not being familiar with any of the three. Spent 15 minutes bouncing around between various movements. Mandryka's comments reflect that very limited experience - the MDG Zacharias sparkled in the sunny concertos, and was a little bit light-seeming in the D minor, while the EMI Zacharias had greater pianistic energy (and occasionally improvised bits outside cadenzas) but less orchestral detail. Inspired by Jo498, I checked the cadenzas of the D minor finale. In the MDG cycle, he has the live orchestra play the Don Giovanni chord that on EMI was inserted from another recording. ;D
I really like the mdg cycle, haven't heard the earlier one. The orchestral playing is just okay but Zacharias just nails it in my book. He doesn't replace Schiff though in my book.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 11:12:58 AMThis is exactly why I don't care a fig for HIP performances in which the keyboard is just puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star. This music was neither a recitativo secco, nor an overture, it was a concerto for soloist and orchestra --- therefore any performance, HIP or modern, which drowns the soloist in an orchestral mass of sounds is an inaccurate travesty and should not be taken seriously.
I find that HIP performance does not reduct the prominence of the piano, since the orchestra also has a lighter, more transparent sound.
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 11:12:58 AMThis is exactly why I don't care a fig for HIP performances in which the keyboard is just puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star. This music was neither a recitativo secco, nor an overture, it was a concerto for soloist and orchestra --- therefore any performance, HIP or modern, which drowns the soloist in an orchestral mass of sounds is an inaccurate travesty and should not be taken seriously.
If so happens the conductor and/or the producer and engineer have seriously failed.
BTW are we sure that similar balance problems didn't exist for Mozart?
Quote from: George on July 04, 2023, 10:05:44 AMNice grab! And nice timing! Looks like this comes out soon. Outside of the Mozart Piano Concertos, the Bartok Concertos and a few Orfeo CDs, I don't have any Anda CDs. Hope you enjoy it!
Amazon is calling it a pre-order for august even though it's been out for years. It seems like it's just being restocked. I could have gotten it a bit cheaper if I was willing to wait, but I'm impatient.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 04, 2023, 08:00:08 AMThat was the received wisdom that I accepted until I listened to them recently (Zacharias). I haven't listened the recordings the Mandrake mentioned, but it strikes me that puffin up the sonatas into something more grand than they are risks losing the elegance in simplicity.
I recall that some of the very earliest recordings Ciccolini made were of Mozart sonatas. Maybe I'll check them out again.
Have you tried any of Alicia De Larrocha's recordings? I really enjoy them. :)
PD
As long as I'm in this thread, anyone have opinions on this set
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71szQzkh7xL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
Not that I need it, since I already have
Perahia
Schiff
Brendel
Barenboim/Warner
Zacharias/Warner
Engel
Sofrinitsky
Immerseel
Kraus (incomplete cycle)
Quote from: JBS on July 06, 2023, 06:42:36 PMNot that I need it, since I already have
Perahia
Schiff
Brendel
Barenboim/Warner
Zacharias/Warner
Engel
Sofrinitsky
Immerseel
Kraus (incomplete cycle)
Interesting, I only have the first 2 from your list. I also have Anda and Uchida. Who are your favorites?
Quote from: George on July 06, 2023, 06:57:23 PMOf those, who are your favorites?
Probably Perahia, Brendel, Sofrinitsky, and Immerseel.
Schiff is pretty good but doesn't please my ears as much.
Barenboim and Zacharias sort of bored me; Engel and Kraus are a bit too dated in terms of sound.
Quote from: JBS on July 06, 2023, 06:42:36 PMAs long as I'm in this thread, anyone have opinions on this set
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71szQzkh7xL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
This is currently my goto for a complete set.
For a partial set, Casadesus (mostly with Szell and some with Ormandy)
Also every disc so far in Bavouzet's Mozart PC cycle has been great.
Quote from: JBS on July 06, 2023, 07:04:55 PMProbably Perahia, Brendel, Sofrinitsky, and Immerseel.
Schiff is pretty good but doesn't please my ears as much.
Barenboim and Zacharias sort of bored me; Engel and Kraus are a bit too dated in terms of sound.
Thanks. I should look out for Brendel's set. I have been appreciating him more as I get older.
Quote from: JBS on July 06, 2023, 06:42:36 PMAs long as I'm in this thread, anyone have opinions on this set
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71szQzkh7xL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
Not that I need it, since I already have
Perahia
Schiff
Brendel
Barenboim/Warner
Zacharias/Warner
Engel
Sofrinitsky
Immerseel
Kraus (incomplete cycle)
Personally, I quite like it. The playing is very crisp and cleanly articulated -- it's definitely a contrast to somebody like Perahia or Barenboim, stylistically more classical than romantic, tempos flowing even in the slow movements. Well recorded too -- definitely worth considering at budget price, IMO -- but then I love Mozart's PCs, I've probably got a dozen sets on the shelf.
I moved the HIP discussion not only to a new thread, but a new board (General).
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2023, 10:27:12 AMI wonder what Mozart would have thought of this, given that he wrote all his concertos to showcase himself... ;D
Fortunately we don't have to pick great pianist
or great conductor/orchestra. Once you stop thinking about them as cycles there are
so many recordings of the concertos, especially from 20 onward. I rarely go out of my way to buy them anymore because I already have plenty but just as an example of one I did and listened to this afternoon is Sudbin/Vanska in 24, just all around phenomenal.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 02, 2023, 07:32:37 AMI figured I should give Haebler a more fair trial, and listened to her recording of the 23rd Concerto, with Rowicki and the LSO (one of the handful that can be found on my streaming service). It was pleasant and skillfully performed, but didn't really expand my horizons, given that I have the sets by Brendel and others on modern piano with a similar ethos.
Which mastering do you have for the Brendel Mozart piano concertos? I am interested in his set and there appears to be at least three incarnations of it on CD.
Quote from: George on August 02, 2023, 08:35:13 AMWhich mastering do you have for the Brendel Mozart piano concertos? I am interested in his set and there appears to be at least three incarnations of it on CD.
I had some of the Brendel on the original CD issues, now I've got the complete Brendel/Philips box, but haven't listened to any of the Mozart yet.
I've reconsidered in my view of Heabler, and now have the big Haebler/Philips Legacy set (still in the process of ripping).
Quote from: George on August 02, 2023, 08:35:13 AMWhich mastering do you have for the Brendel Mozart piano concertos? I am interested in his set and there appears to be at least three incarnations of it on CD.
There's four incarnations. I have this one from the Complete Mozart Edition, which is the second incarnation.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41TVYWSCFKL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
This is the only one that mentions remastering: it dates from 2009.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71+ud3oXLxL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
A "Collector's Edition" budget box was issued in 2011. Presumably it used the 2009 remaster, but its current price is much too high.
I have no idea what if any remastering was done for the Complete Brendel box.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71N51g6kcfL._SL400_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bomkOgBkL._SL400_.jpg)
I confirmed this morning that these two sets have the same mastering for their shared content. The first set was released in 1990, the second one was released in 2011. The 2011 has two discs of non-Brendel performances that are not in the 1990 set, but discs 3-12 of the 2011 set are the same performances and mastering as the 1990 set.
Quote from: George on August 05, 2023, 07:27:28 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71N51g6kcfL._SL400_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bomkOgBkL._SL400_.jpg)
I confirmed this morning that these two sets have the same mastering for their shared content. The first set was released in 1990, the second one was released in 2011. The 2011 has two discs of non-Brendel performances that are not in the 1990 set, but discs 3-12 of the 2011 set are the same performances and mastering as the 1990 set.
And the Complete Mozart set is really just the 2011 set with different packaging.
It would seem the Eloquence 2009 set is the only remastered version, and also the cheapest at the moment.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bomkOgBkL._SL400_.jpg)
I was lucky enough to find a new copy of this on eBay from a seller who accepted a $50 offer!
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bomkOgBkL._SL400_.jpg)
Now enjoying CD 1 from this set, which arrived today. A fortepiano is the instrument (for this CD only), which I don't usually like, but I am enjoying it here. CD 2 has the K 103 concertos, works I have never owned or even heard before, played on harpsicord. CDs 3-12 are all played by Brendel on the piano.
All this (PCs 1- 27 and the K.103 concertos) makes this (by far) the most complete Mozart piano concerto set I have ever owned.
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music116/v4/a0/c4/b1/a0c4b141-e3c2-87df-78e1-b6df5d8c6a60/747313912988.png/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Today Qobuz release.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 11, 2023, 04:42:35 AM(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music116/v4/a0/c4/b1/a0c4b141-e3c2-87df-78e1-b6df5d8c6a60/747313912988.png/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Today Qobuz release.
Will give it a listen, I am not hopeful, SWR usually use noise reduction on their historical reissues :'(
There must be around half a dozen historical recordings of these 2 with Michelangeli floating around; not sure why that one should add anything new.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 12, 2023, 01:38:44 AMThere must be around half a dozen historical recordings of these 2 with Michelangeli floating around; not sure why that one should add anything new.
There is nothing new or unusual in the fact that new editions of old archival records appear. There may be various reasons for this.
(https://i.discogs.com/oQU5j3sxO4cL5LB81oNE_k_-_o6voPYlTRJG9IWLUbs/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:525/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ3NjA2/OTQtMTM3NDY2NTY4/Mi04MTAyLmpwZWc.jpeg)
Found a used copy of this for $10 this week and have been enjoying Barenboim's unique take with these works. The sound is warm and rich, the performances are bigger and bolder than many I have heard. Many of the slow movements are slower than usually played, allowing for great depth.
I see that this set was chosen as the best on this website: https://www.classical-music.com/features/recordings/mozart-piano-concertos-best-recordings/
Having now heard the entire Barenboim set, I can recommend it without reservation, even if one already has a set or two, the Barenboim will surely add a unique take that will complement any collection. Uniquely and impressively he somehow is able to play this music with power, muscle and drama, while still maintaining the essential character of Mozart's music. And unlike other Barenboim recordings, he refrains from slowing down the outer movements, while finding great depth and beauty in the slow movements. I'm very glad I got this set, as it stands out from the others that I own in a number of significant ways. No one I have heard sounds like Barenboim in this music.
In the next week, I plan to have a repeat listen to the Perahia Mozart Complete Concerto set, this time in its 2006 remastering, a set I picked up used recently:
(https://i.discogs.com/x5GW2vAWGVcuYks2QTTM1kF7LpraDjK9dSGuRls39Gk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:596/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzNjE0/NjYyLTE1NTc1NTk0/NjEtNTY5Ni5qcGVn.jpeg)
Apparently Ravel said in an interview with the music critic Pierre Leroi, published in October 1931:
My only wish... was to write a genuine concerto, that is, a brilliant work, clearly highlighting the soloist's virtuosity, without seeking to show profundity. As a model, I took two musicians who, in my opinion, best illustrated this type of composition: Mozart and Saint-Saëns.
Quote from: George on September 04, 2023, 03:59:28 PMHaving now heard the entire Barenboim set, I can recommend it without reservation, even if one already has a set or two, the Barenboim will surely add a unique take that will complement any collection. Uniquely and impressively he somehow is able to play this music with power, muscle and drama (like Beethoven), while still maintaining the essential character of Mozart's music. And unlike other Barenboim recordings, he refrains from slowing down the outer movements, while finding great depth and beauty in the slow movements. I'm very glad I got this set, as it stands out from the others that I own in a number of significant ways. No one I have heard sounds like Barenboim in this music.
In the next week, I plan to have a repeat listen to the Perahia Mozart Complete Concerto set, this time in its 2006 remastering, a set I picked up used recently:
(https://i.discogs.com/x5GW2vAWGVcuYks2QTTM1kF7LpraDjK9dSGuRls39Gk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:596/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzNjE0/NjYyLTE1NTc1NTk0/NjEtNTY5Ni5qcGVn.jpeg)
I'll be interested to read what you say, especially about Perrahia's conducting.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2023, 11:50:38 PMApparently Ravel said in an interview with the music critic Pierre Leroi, published in October 1931:
My only wish... was to write a genuine concerto, that is, a brilliant work, clearly highlighting the soloist's virtuosity, without seeking to show profundity. As a model, I took two musicians who, in my opinion, best illustrated this type of composition: Mozart and Saint-Saëns.
When I see this Ravel quote, a couple things come to mind. Firstly - perhaps profundity in music is something that just happens sometimes, not something consciously achieved. I say this because to me the middle movement of the G major Ravel concerto seems profound.
Second, the limitations when talking about music. Perhaps a word like 'profound' can mean quite different things to different people.
George,
I'm sure you will be tired of Mozart PCs by the time you're done, but if not here are my two favorite modern sets:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.cdandlp.com%2F2017%2F05%2FimgL%2F116968817.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a3c0e4581bca216f83e5105d54d437515f7bf259d186b2c003ee16764c52b1cb&ipo=images)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-FsL47m1L._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: DavidW on September 06, 2023, 06:28:14 AMGeorge,
I'm sure you will be tired of Mozart PCs by the time you're done, but if not here are my two favorite modern sets:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.cdandlp.com%2F2017%2F05%2FimgL%2F116968817.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a3c0e4581bca216f83e5105d54d437515f7bf259d186b2c003ee16764c52b1cb&ipo=images)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-FsL47m1L._SL1200_.jpg)
Thanks for sharing, David. I have and very much enjoy the Schiff/Vegh, though its incompleteness and the distant-sounding piano keep it from being a top choice for me.
Interestingly, these are works that I do not get sick of. Not yet, anyway. I don't just listen to them for the music, I also find them emotionally therapeutic. Music therapists have found that listening to the slow movements of Mozart piano concertos has an effect on the brain that is to similar to valium. I'm not saying I only listen to the slow movement but just wanted to share that.
Quote from: George on September 06, 2023, 07:33:12 AMnterestingly, tgese are works that I do not sick of. Not yet, anyway.
Same here. I could listen to
Mozart's music all day long, seven days a week.
Quote from: atardecer on September 06, 2023, 12:34:26 AMWhen I see this Ravel quote, a couple things come to mind. Firstly - perhaps profundity in music is something that just happens sometimes, not something consciously achieved. I say this because to me the middle movement of the G major Ravel concerto seems profound.
Second, the limitations when talking about music. Perhaps a word like 'profound' can mean quite different things to different people.
I prefer *profoundly* to *profound*. I can relate to music which is profoundly cheerful, profoundly sad, profoundly pensive, profoundly melancholy, profoundly heroic, profoundly resignated etc. For music which is just profound, and especially music which is purposefully so, I have no use because more often than not it is profoundly boring.
I am curious, what are people's current favorite sets of Mozart piano concertos?
I have yet to hear a set of these works that wasn't at least good. Schiff's set is nice, but incomplete and his piano is too distantly recorded. Uchida's set is also nice, with great beauty, but also incomplete and lacks excitement. Anda's and Perahia's are both complete, with Perahia including the two multi-piano works. Out of these two, Perahia certainly wins in terms of sound and refinement, Anda wins for performance, but as of now I don't hear either set as being truly special.
So, my current two favorite sets are:
Brendel - His set is more complete than anyone's, even including the K. 107 works, played by Koopman. The set includes versions of PC 7 with 2 and 3 pianos. The first four are played by Haebler on fortepiano, the rest are played by Brendel. To me, his playing here always seems absolutely "right." I've read complaints about his tone, but I don't share this view, at least not here. In fact, I think his piano is captured with great clarity and beauty.
Barenboim - The most unique set of all. Powerful, confident, spontaneous playing captured in warm, rich analog sound. The slow movements have incredible depth and beauty and the young Barenboim avoids playing with the music with rubato or slowing down the outer movements.
Brendel and Perahia.
I've listened to the Barenboim set once. I have to confess it didn't impress me one way or the other. But I'm more in favor of Beethoven played like Mozart than Mozart played like Beethoven (or even better Beethoven played like Beethoven and Mozart played like Mozart)
Anda and Schiff are good, but to my ears lack the extra bit to make them the best. Uchida I don't have. The series she did with the Cleveland Orchestra is worth hearing.
I recently got Kirschnereit, but haven't listened to any of it so far. It lacks K107, the first four concertos, and the concertos for 2 and 3 pianos.
For PI I have Sofronitzky and Immerseel; both are worth getting.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2023, 11:58:30 PMI'll be interested to read what you say, especially about Perrahia's conducting.
After relistening to the first five discs over the last few days (I've owned the set for years,) I would say his conducting is middle of the road, invisible. Nothing stands out as bad, but then nothing stands out as great either, much like Perahia's piano playing (here and in many other recordings I have heard by him (Chopin, Schubert, etc.))
Quote from: George on September 08, 2023, 06:06:10 AMI am curious, what are people's current favorite sets of Mozart piano concertos?
I already gave you my MI, but here are my PI:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fis5-ssl.mzstatic.com%2Fimage%2Fthumb%2FMusic124%2Fv4%2F4e%2Fa3%2F33%2F4ea33375-1e2b-eb2c-976a-dd90fa5552b1%2F7318599925448.jpg%2F1200x1200bf-60.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bed4e6df95a7131bd1cb87d7848291444e5748a3f9d27198361b89a5322f6cbe&ipo=images)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdmarket.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fsystem%2F20120414%2F31520%2Flarge.jpg%3F1334359945&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=20998e58d015eb81d9dfafab5ed2e82643ee7a82bb42683de4dae56dc07cb761&ipo=images)
Quote from: George on September 08, 2023, 09:31:25 AMAfter relistening to the first five discs over the last few days (I've owned the set for years,) I would say his conducting is middle of the road, invisible. Nothing stands out as bad, but then nothing stands out as great either, much like Perahia's piano playing (here and in many other recordings I have heard by him (Chopin, Schubert, etc.))
Yes, middle of the road at best I'd say. It's when you compare with a real conductor that you become aware of his weaknesses in that area (I did that with Zaccharias's first recordings.)
As I collected these works separately long before boxes became cheap, I have "only" 3 boxes: Barenboim/ECO, Bilson/Gardiner, Zacharias/EMI(diverse cond).
Of these the Barenboim is my favorite; although I find some less successful, I appreciate the approach that is overall "weightier" than common.
I have 13 concerti (14-16, 18-27) from Barenboim's later recordings with Berlin and they are also very good, I preferred some of them to the earlier set but the earlier one is probably more distinctive, the later seems slightly more mainstream overall (e.g. to me it sounds less "symphonic" despite Berlin Phil).
I also have 10 concerti with Brendel/Marriner. They are very good but I find Marriner a tad "generic". There is an earlier disc with Brendel/Janigro (K 271+ 449) on Vanguard I find more engaging.
Of the 12 I have of Schiff/Vegh I like some a lot (e.g. 271, 453, 456) and I generally love Vegh who provides some of the best accompaniment but Schiff be a bit too "puny", esp. in the bigger pieces like 466, 467, 482 (I don't have their 491 and 503). Another flaw for me is that they apparently used string only versions in K 414, 449 although interestingly Schiff's piano seems more assertive and present on that disc. (This series was recorded over several years at different locations, despite Decca's reputation they don't all sound equally good.)
A missed opportunity seems that Peter Serkin and Sasha Schneider only recorded 6 concerti (449-459) in the 1970s; they are also among the best I know, esp. 451, 456, 459, also due to the alert accompaniment.
Quote from: George on September 08, 2023, 06:06:10 AMI am curious, what are people's current favorite sets of Mozart piano concertos?
Schiff, Zacharias (MDG), Barenboim (Teldec).
The Schiff is the one I tote around on my phone so I can listen anywhere, anytime.
Quote from: George on September 08, 2023, 06:06:10 AMI am curious, what are people's current favorite sets of Mozart piano concertos?
I have numerous recordings of the piano concertos but only one complete set - Barenboim/ECO. I bought it is a set of LPs over forty years. I dip into it occasionally, mainly for the early works which I don't otherwise own.
Otherwise Brendel is my favourite and I have accumulated his recordings as LPs, CDs and downloads over the years but not a complete set.
Can't stop listening to the Bilson/Gardiner 20 and 21, which I found on CD for dirt cheap. Thoughts on the rest of the cycle?
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 20, 2023, 05:01:49 AMCan't stop listening to the Bilson/Gardiner 20 and 21, which I found on CD for dirt cheap. Thoughts on the rest of the cycle?
It's perhaps my favorite cycle - the performances are outstanding.
I rarely listen to Bilson/Gardiner because I think the orchestra tends to overwhelm the historic fortepiano, and I listen more to the earlier works with smaller orchestra (unlike the "symphonic" 20,21,22,24,25) other than that, it's very good. IIRC also quite consistent, so try any work you like.
(Cross post from the WAYLTN thread)
(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b27399fcc17b81c9bdad7abd3f90)
An excellent Jeunehomme, with a deeply felt and touching slow movement. The 12th isn't half bad either. Highly recommended.
Quote from: DavidW on September 08, 2023, 09:35:40 AMI already gave you my MI, but here are my PI:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fis5-ssl.mzstatic.com%2Fimage%2Fthumb%2FMusic124%2Fv4%2F4e%2Fa3%2F33%2F4ea33375-1e2b-eb2c-976a-dd90fa5552b1%2F7318599925448.jpg%2F1200x1200bf-60.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bed4e6df95a7131bd1cb87d7848291444e5748a3f9d27198361b89a5322f6cbe&ipo=images%5D) (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdmarket.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fsystem%2F20120414%2F31520%2Flarge.jpg%3F1334359945&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=20998e58d015eb81d9dfafab5ed2e82643ee7a82bb42683de4dae56dc07cb761&ipo=images)
Quote from: Jo498 on November 20, 2023, 12:56:24 PMI rarely listen to Bilson/Gardiner because I think the orchestra tends to overwhelm the historic fortepiano, and I listen more to the earlier works with smaller orchestra (unlike the "symphonic" 20,21,22,24,25) other than that, it's very good. IIRC also quite consistent, so try any work you like.
For my 2 PI sets, I have the same ones mentioned by
David - I had the Bilson box but my reaction was the same as
Jo498, i.e. the fortepiano being recessed and 'drowned out' by the orchestra - did a local donation. Dave