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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: relm1 on May 25, 2019, 03:36:18 PM

Title: Despair in music?
Post by: relm1 on May 25, 2019, 03:36:18 PM
Sometimes I am in a very dark place.  The music I typically use to connect with this mood doesn't always fit.  Shostakovitch, late Mahler or Tchaikovsky No. 6 are sad but not where I might be at.  If the greatest examples of dark music don't quite match what I need, has music failed me in it's ability to express certain emotions?  Maybe it is too limited.  This is why I compose but one can hardly survive writing what serves their need adding to the despair.  So my question...is art futile in certain expressive needs?  If so, what is the alternative?  Alternatively, perhaps their are works that better encapsulate this mood so what are those??  If poetry, literature, music, art all fails at expressing the most extreme emotions, then it is insufficient as a medium. 
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: SymphonicAddict on May 25, 2019, 05:15:08 PM
My first impression about some of your thoughts is an apparent overfamiliarity with certain repertoire. Maybe you should try other composers or works. Have you ever tried any Schnittke or Pettersson for that matter?
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2019, 05:25:36 PM
Have you tried:

Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead, just a masterpiece of tone painting, death personified in the music.
Strauss' Metamorphosen for 23 Solo Strings
Wagner's Die Walkure, the closing moments starting with Wotan's Farewell, probably the single most moving and unforgettable piece of music in opera.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 06:43:51 PM
Personally, I find it strange that a person would seek out music that is ‘dark’ or ‘troubling’. You will find that there’s a whole plethora of composers that have written angry, brooding, and disturbing music, but are these types of emotions worth pursuing or going out of your way to find? Not for me really, because hunting music that’s dark isn’t important to me. What is important is enjoying the music for what it is and not really trying to form some kind of preconceived notion about what the music could or should be. It’s all about perception and how you personally perceive the music. Every listener feels the emotional element of music differently, so this why I couldn’t even begin to recommend something based off an emotion that may or may not be within the music.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: NikF4 on May 25, 2019, 07:04:40 PM
Personally, I find it strange that a person would seek out music that is ‘dark’ or ‘troubling’. You will find that there’s a whole plethora of composers that have written angry, brooding, and disturbing music, but are these types of emotions worth pursuing or going out of your way to find? Not for me really, because hunting music that’s dark isn’t important to me. What is important is enjoying the music for what it is and not really trying to form some kind of preconceived notion about what the music could or should be. It’s all about perception and how you personally perceive the music. Every listener feels the emotional element of music differently, so this why I couldn’t even begin to recommend something based off an emotion that may or may not be within the music.

That's a good point. We're all liable to projecting our thoughts and feelings, and in my opinion music can often return a particularly efficient reflection to the source.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 07:21:45 PM
That's a good point. We're all liable to projecting our thoughts and feelings, and in my opinion music can often return a particularly efficient reflection to the source.

Yes, indeed. Good to see you around these parts again, Nik. 8)

Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: NikF4 on May 25, 2019, 07:29:13 PM
Yes, indeed. Good to see you around these parts again, Nik. 8)

Good to see you too mate.  8)
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 07:42:09 PM
Yes, indeed. Good to see you around these parts again, Nik. 8)

+1 we wondered where you were.
 :)
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 07:49:51 PM
Sometimes I am in a very dark place.  The music I typically use to connect with this mood doesn't always fit.  Shostakovitch, late Mahler or Tchaikovsky No. 6 are sad but not where I might be at.  If the greatest examples of dark music don't quite match what I need, has music failed me in it's ability to express certain emotions?  Maybe it is too limited.  This is why I compose but one can hardly survive writing what serves their need adding to the despair.  So my question...is art futile in certain expressive needs?  If so, what is the alternative?  Alternatively, perhaps their are works that better encapsulate this mood so what are those??  If poetry, literature, music, art all fails at expressing the most extreme emotions, then it is insufficient as a medium.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that you are sometimes in a very dark place. I can relate to that but tend to prefer 'despair turning to defiance' in music as it gives one a bit of hope and I find it very moving. Walton's Symphony 1 works for me as does Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905'. I wonder if you've tried symphonies 3 and 4 by Stanley Bate Karim? I think that both are excellent and you might relate to them. I'd also agree with Cesar's Allan Pettersson suggestion. As far as I'm concerned (and Canadian Andre as well I think) his Violin Concerto No.2 is one of the greatest, possibly the greatest, ever written. It is certainly despairing but the final few minutes are heartbreakingly beautiful and incredibly moving. I'd also recommend his symphonies 6 (described, accurately I think, as 'a long struggle towards the sunrise'), 7 and 8. Bruckner's 9th Symphony also comes to mind.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mandryka on May 25, 2019, 08:45:54 PM
Sometimes I am in a very dark place.  The music I typically use to connect with this mood doesn't always fit.  Shostakovitch, late Mahler or Tchaikovsky No. 6 are sad but not where I might be at.  If the greatest examples of dark music don't quite match what I need, has music failed me in it's ability to express certain emotions?  Maybe it is too limited.  This is why I compose but one can hardly survive writing what serves their need adding to the despair.  So my question...is art futile in certain expressive needs?  If so, what is the alternative?  Alternatively, perhaps their are works that better encapsulate this mood so what are those??  If poetry, literature, music, art all fails at expressing the most extreme emotions, then it is insufficient as a medium.

Try Orlando Lassus, The Tears of St Peter.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 25, 2019, 09:12:16 PM
My relationship with music is different. I listen to music to allow the composer to project various moods into my mind, which I might experience vicariously. I don't listen to music to match a mood I am experiencing.

When I think of despair in music, I think of the scene in Madame Butterfly where the main character sends her child away, intending to commit suicide.

It is hard for me to think of a good piece of instrumental classical music which projects unalloyed despair. Most good classical music is an abstract drama which goes through a variety of moods before reaching some sort of apotheosis. Maybe Petterson (as was mentioned above) but I don't really like Petterson much. Another thing that comes to mind is Schubert Wintereise. Again, vocal music. For instrumental, some passages from Tchaikovsky's Pathetique symphony.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 09:27:42 PM
My relationship with music is different. I listen to music to allow the composer to project various moods into my mind, which I might experience vicariously. I don't listen to music to match a mood I am experiencing.

When I think of despair in music, I think of the scene in Madame Butterfly where the main character sends her child away, intending to commit suicide.

It is hard for me to think of a good piece of instrumental classical music which projects unalloyed despair. Most good classical music is an abstract drama which goes through a variety of moods before reaching some sort of apotheosis. Maybe Petterson (as was mentioned above) but I don't really like Petterson much. Another thing that comes to mind is Schubert Wintereise. Again, vocal music. For instrumental, some passages from Tchaikovsky's Pathetique symphony.
I agree about Tchaikovsky's 'Pathetique Symphony' as well.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: amw on May 26, 2019, 02:42:22 AM
When I think of despair in music probably the first thing that comes to mind is Sibelius's Symphonies Nos. 4 and 6 (4 more than 6). Then the St Matthew Passion sequence Aus Liebe - Können Tränen meine Wangen - Komm, süsses Kreuz (maybe as far as Wenn ich einmal soll scheiden, but by then we are already in the "catharsis" stage of the Passion), and Ruht wohl, ihr heiligen Gebeine from the St John Passion. Schubert's Winterreise has also already been mentioned. Other examples: Janáček 1.X.1905, the last few minutes of Prokofiev's Symphony No. 6, probably a lot of Weinberg's late work (eg the "Kaddish" symphony No.21—not a title he gave to the work himself though), Ustvolskaya's Grand Duet and Sonata No.6 (among other works).....

In music despair can be a transitory state en route to catharsis, or it can take over a piece completely even if other emotions are initially present. As a person with major depression, panic disorder etc I'm often feeling "down" and in that state usually either seek out music expressing absolute alienation (e.g. Feldman, some late Liszt, Nono, Sainte-Colombe, Gesualdo, Finnissy English Country Tunes, Zimmermann Musique pour Roi Ubu etc) or music offering clarity and objectivity, and sometimes humour, if not necessarily comfort (e.g. Machaut, Mozart, Schubert, Cage, Poulenc etc). The composers who primarily sought to express fantasy and subjective mental & emotional states (e.g. Froberger, Beethoven, Schumann, Mahler, Schoenberg, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich etc) are not usually on my radar at those times.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2019, 07:31:31 PM

In music despair can be a transitory state en route to catharsis, or it can take over a piece completely even if other emotions are initially present. As a person with major depression, panic disorder etc I'm often feeling "down" and in that state usually either seek out music expressing absolute alienation (e.g. Feldman, some late Liszt, Nono, Sainte-Colombe, Gesualdo, Finnissy English Country Tunes, Zimmermann Musique pour Roi Ubu etc) or music offering clarity and objectivity, and sometimes humour, if not necessarily comfort (e.g. Machaut, Mozart, Schubert, Cage, Poulenc etc). The composers who primarily sought to express fantasy and subjective mental & emotional states (e.g. Froberger, Beethoven, Schumann, Mahler, Schoenberg, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich etc) are not usually on my radar at those times.

Bravo! best thing I’ve read all day (but it is about 5.30 a.m.)
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2019, 01:18:29 AM
There’s an old joke about despair.

A lady is throwing a party where each guest shows up as their favorite emotion. A guest arrives dressed in green. "Envy!" she says, and lets him in.

A lady comes dressed in red. She says, "Anger!" and lets her in.

Two naked guys walk up to the front door. One guy is holding a bowl of pudding with his penis stuck in it, and the other guy has his penis in a hollowed-out pear.

"Wait a minute," she says to them. "This is supposed to be an emotion party!"

The first guy says, "Yeah, and I'm fucking dis-custard."

The second guy says, "And I'm deep in dis-pear."
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2019, 01:29:04 AM
Sometimes I am in a very dark place.  The music I typically use to connect with this mood doesn't always fit.  Shostakovitch, late Mahler or Tchaikovsky No. 6 are sad but not where I might be at.  If the greatest examples of dark music don't quite match what I need, has music failed me in it's ability to express certain emotions?  Maybe it is too limited.  This is why I compose but one can hardly survive writing what serves their need adding to the despair.  So my question...is art futile in certain expressive needs?  If so, what is the alternative?  Alternatively, perhaps their are works that better encapsulate this mood so what are those??  If poetry, literature, music, art all fails at expressing the most extreme emotions, then it is insufficient as a medium.

You may enjoy reading Emil Cioran’s book De l'inconvénient d'être né, and Albert Camus’ book Le Mythe de Sisyphe
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: (: premont :) on May 27, 2019, 02:05:53 AM
The darkest music?

My first association is the Sarabande of Bach's cello suite no. 5.

Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Cato on May 27, 2019, 05:26:07 AM
Try my cantata Exaudi me: 25 minutes of cathartic despair...(it is a MIDI "choir," but gives a decent enough idea of the work)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9mlhnvdn88z7gv/Schulte%20Exaudi%20Me%20voix%20-%202nd%20mix%20-%2030%20Dec%2016.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9mlhnvdn88z7gv/Schulte%20Exaudi%20Me%20voix%20-%202nd%20mix%20-%2030%20Dec%2016.mp3?dl=0)

Go to reply #13 for a download of the score:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26569.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26569.0.html)
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: kyjo on May 27, 2019, 12:18:17 PM
The unexpectedly tragic endings of Tchaikovsky’s Piano Trio and Malcolm Arnold’s 5th Symphony are two of the most gut-wrenching portrayals of despair in music that I know.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: vandermolen on May 27, 2019, 12:26:51 PM
The unexpectedly tragic endings of Tchaikovsky’s Piano Trio and Malcolm Arnold’s 5th Symphony are two of the most gut-wrenching portrayals of despair in music that I know.
+1 for the Malcolm Arnold.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: greg on May 27, 2019, 01:00:07 PM
Sometimes I am in a very dark place.  The music I typically use to connect with this mood doesn't always fit.  Shostakovitch, late Mahler or Tchaikovsky No. 6 are sad but not where I might be at.  If the greatest examples of dark music don't quite match what I need, has music failed me in it's ability to express certain emotions?  Maybe it is too limited.
I also gravitate towards darker music 80-90% of the time... so there's much great stuff in the classical realm, but also a bit limited. You can try metal, there's a whole world of bleak music there, and for some people only very specific subgenres hit the spot- so probably worth exploring to find exactly what you're looking for.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 27, 2019, 08:51:19 PM
The darkest music?

My first association is the Sarabande of Bach's cello suite no. 5.

It happens I listened to that piece last night, and I agree entirely. No histrionics, totally detached, yet bleak. A much truer depiction of despair than any of the overblown romantic works.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2019, 10:08:37 PM
It happens I listened to that piece last night, and I agree entirely. No histrionics, totally detached, yet bleak. A much truer depiction of despair than any of the overblown romantic works.

Morton Zeuthen sounds as though he doesn't agree to me, I'm not sure, it's hard to make this sort of judgement for me, what do you think?

https://youtu.be/vfH5KklFVKY?t=694

Even more clearly maybe Tunicliffe, and Wolfgang Rubsam. Rubsam a revelation IMO.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: pjme on May 27, 2019, 11:27:56 PM
"In music, despair can be a transitory state en route to catharsis..." 

+1

Udo Zimmermann: Symfonia come un gran lamento
https://www.youtube.com/v/OtLDAttARDI
Rudolf Escher: Hymne du grand Meaulnes
" Ah! frère, compagnon, voyageur. Comme nous étions persuadés, tous deux, que le bonheur était proche, et qu'il allait suffire de se mettre en chemin pour l'atteindre! "
"Ah! brother, companion, traveler. How we were both convinced that happiness was near, and that it would be enough to set out to reach it!"

https://www.youtube.com/v/PBmU8N73V8Y

https://www.youtube.com/v/JCzLJDyYPAY

https://www.youtube.com/v/08f-7a5EgNo






Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2019, 03:44:40 AM
Weinberg's Symphony No.21 'Kaddish' would seem relevant here as well.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: greg on May 28, 2019, 06:31:35 AM
Lizst's piano piece Gray Clouds is a good one.
The whole chromatically descending augmented chord thing is a great capture of a despairing mood, and something i use a lot in improvisation now and sometimes in my own music as well.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: pjme on May 28, 2019, 09:52:23 AM
Weinberg's Symphony No.21 'Kaddish' would seem relevant here as well.

On YT there is a Polish performance under Jacek Kaspszyk.
Never heard or listened to any music by Weinberg before....

https://www.youtube.com/v/7EmhV-Xkwng
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 29, 2019, 07:18:57 AM
When I reflect on the question I am more and more convinced that a musical depiction of despair should not be melodramatic, but detached. Besides that Sarabande from Bach's unaccompanied cello suite in d minor, I think of a prelude by Debussy, Des pas sur la neige (footsteps in the snow). The title does not indicate that Debussy explicitly meant it as a depiction of despair, but for me it evokes the feeling.

Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 29, 2019, 07:53:06 PM
When I reflect on the question I am more and more convinced that a musical depiction of despair should not be melodramatic, but detached. Besides that Sarabande from Bach's unaccompanied cello suite in d minor, I think of a prelude by Debussy, Des pas sur la neige (footsteps in the snow). The title does not indicate that Debussy explicitly meant it as a depiction of despair, but for me it evokes the feeling.

And what a lovely piece of music it is.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2019, 08:09:42 PM
On YT there is a Polish performance under Jacek Kaspszyk.
Never heard or listened to any music by Weinberg before....

https://www.youtube.com/v/7EmhV-Xkwng
What did you think of it?
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: some guy on May 30, 2019, 01:17:44 AM
I've related this observation before, and here it is again:

The section of Prokofiev's Eugene Onegin where Eugene is talking about how boring girls are has always seemed to me to be as melancholy as it gets. Apparently Prokofiev would not agree. Cynical ennui is not the same as melancholy. Plus, Prokofiev used the same tune that I find so mournful in his comic opera, Betrothal in a Monastery, where the tune is used for words about what a privilege it is to serve a beautiful woman.

Also, not very bleak.

In fact, I would say that the whole business of composers raiding their own works, reusing tunes and motifs in various different contexts, is as good an example as any that whatever emotion content there is in a musical situation is coming from the listener not from the notes.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Traverso on May 30, 2019, 04:56:03 AM
I think that this Elgar piece comes close in expressing  heartbreaking grief

Sospiri

 I'm not a particular fan of Barenboim but this LP  I  kept after selling most of my classical LP's.

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5cV1KV8/R-8084430-1494753359-8069-jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2019, 05:10:05 AM
I believe the first movement of Enescu’s Cello Sonata No. 2 in C major illustrates despair as I believe the music takes the listener on a journey of grieving of some kind and somehow finding a way out of this grief at the end of the movement.

https://www.youtube.com/v/acKCGhtKlaI

This, of course, is what I hear in the music and may very well be different for another listener.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 30, 2019, 05:28:00 AM
It strikes me that the last two posts, referring to the Elgar and Enescu pieces, are describing pieces that reflect grief, rather than despair. Grief is the pain of loss, while despair is the complete lack of hope. They are very different, although one may lead to the other. I find it easy to think of music that reflects grief. I find it much harder to think of music that reflects despair.

Of course, it is up to the original poster to specify what he meant by the request.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Traverso on May 30, 2019, 05:41:55 AM
It strikes me that the last two posts, referring to the Elgar and Enescu pieces, are describing pieces that reflect grief, rather than despair. Grief is the pain of loss, while despair is the complete lack of hope. They are very different, although one may lead to the other. I find it easy to think of music that reflects grief. I find it much harder to think of music that reflects despair.

Of course, it is up to the original poster to specify what he meant by the request.

I think you are right in this,despair is like a "black hole "a kind of wasteland,I cannot give an example of such a state beyond all tears.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2019, 05:48:55 AM
It strikes me that the last two posts, referring to the Elgar and Enescu pieces, are describing pieces that reflect grief, rather than despair. Grief is the pain of loss, while despair is the complete lack of hope. They are very different, although one may lead to the other. I find it easy to think of music that reflects grief. I find it much harder to think of music that reflects despair.

Of course, it is up to the original poster to specify what he meant by the request.

A fair point. I don’t believe I’ve ever listened to (or wanted to listen to) music that has completely succumbed to despair. I’m very much a listener that likes a 'light at the end of the tunnel' so to speak.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2019, 05:49:57 AM
It strikes me that the last two posts, referring to the Elgar and Enescu pieces, are describing pieces that reflect grief, rather than despair. Grief is the pain of loss, while despair is the complete lack of hope. They are very different, although one may lead to the other. I find it easy to think of music that reflects grief. I find it much harder to think of music that reflects despair.

Completely agreed. This is also the distinction I made in my choice above.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2019, 06:51:30 AM
When I reflect on the question I am more and more convinced that a musical depiction of despair should not be melodramatic, but detached.

A detached despair, or a despairing detachment... Quite the oxymoron, honestly.  :)

Otomh, other than Chopin's Op. 35's final movement and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique's final movement I can't think of any other music that fits in the Merriam-Webster's definition of despair, namely "utter loss of hope". And when I reflect on the question I am more and more convinced that, if a movement seems to fit in the bill but is not the final movement of a work, then attributing despair to it is premature. Utter loss of hope cannot be followed by anything else but silence. If anything else comes after it, then it's not utter loss of hope.

On a general note, it's very rarely that I listen to music in order to match my mood (actually, it happened only once, after I lost my mother last year and for a whole month I listened to nothing but Requiems). If anything, it's quite the opposite: my mood is generally cheerful, nonchalant and happy-go-lucky but I don't listen exclusively to such music; my top 3 composers are Mozart, Schubert and Chopin, and they wrote plenty of serious and profound works which are among my favorites. And now that I think of it, it's true that when listening to, say, Mozart's PC24, or Schubert's D960, or Chopin's Op. 35 I experience sadness, pain and resignation during listening, but afterwards it's as true that I feel intense pleasure, my soul is literally happy --- I think this is the cathartic effect of music, which can literally transmute sadness into joy, pain into pleasure and resignation into enthusiasm! Music is indeed the philosopher's stone that turns lead into gold!

Du holde Kunst, in wieviel grauen Stunden,
Wo mich des Lebens wilder Kreis umstrickt,

Hast du mein Herz zu warmer Lieb' entzunden,
Hast mich in eine beßre Welt entrückt,
In eine beßre Welt entrückt!

Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entfloßen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir,

Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschloßen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir!
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2019, 07:44:59 AM
Sainton's 'Nadir':
(http://)
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: amw on May 30, 2019, 08:54:38 AM
A detached despair, or a despairing detachment... Quite the oxymoron, honestly.  :)

Otomh, other than Chopin's Op. 35's final movement and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique's final movement I can't think of any other music that fits in the Merriam-Webster's definition of despair, namely "utter loss of hope". And when I reflect on the question I am more and more convinced that, if a movement seems to fit in the bill but is not the final movement of a work, then attributing despair to it is premature. Utter loss of hope cannot be followed by anything else but silence. If anything else comes after it, then it's not utter loss of hope.
I think that's why my first answer was Sibelius 4 whose last movement plays out a gradual but total loss of hope, or Winterreise, which ends without any resolution or catharsis in Der Leiermann. The St Matthew Passion of course needs to follow up the despair with death and the promise of resurrection, but of course part of despair is the desire for death, which is the central theme of Komm, süsses Kreuz. I think the conclusion of Schumann's Op. 35 Kerner Liederreihe also ends with the open desire for death (although I don't remember the exact text, and the music can be interpreted in....uh.....a variety of ways).

There aren't a ton of examples in the repertoire though, maybe you need to have spent a lot of time in that place to be able to write about it. I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 30, 2019, 09:05:08 AM
A detached despair, or a despairing detachment... Quite the oxymoron, honestly.  :)

I see no contradiction. The definition of dispair is a "complete loss or absence of hope." That would naturally manifest itself as a detachment from the world.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2019, 09:23:52 AM
Here's a medieval interpretation of despair

https://www.youtube.com/v/OuK55mm73kY

Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2019, 09:26:18 AM
I see no contradiction. The definition of dispair is a "complete loss or absence of hope." That would naturally manifest itself as a detachment from the world.

Naturally? Hmmmm.... Have you ever felt a complete loss or absence of hope?
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 30, 2019, 09:58:42 AM
Naturally? Hmmmm.... Have you ever felt a complete loss or absence of hope?

Yes, but that is not a topic for this web site.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2019, 10:04:25 AM
Yes, but that is not a topic for this web site.

Agreed, it's too personal and intimate a matter toi be discussed publicly. I might have overstepped a red line, in which case I sincerely apologize.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 30, 2019, 10:06:30 AM
Agreed, it's too personal and intimate a matter toi be discussed publicly. I might have overstepped a red line, in which case I sincerely apologize.

Not a problem.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2019, 10:11:54 AM
Not a problem.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Despair in music?
Post by: Ten thumbs on October 23, 2020, 04:25:07 AM
I have recently been playing once more a piano piece that seems to epitomise despair (and also loneliness). Do not complain of overblown romanticism, this is bare bones music: Heller, Op.128 no.4, Einsame Blume. It is marked 'Sehr langsam' and begins with a bare melody, continually rising only to fall again; this is repeated with variation and is followed by rising phrases, each higher than the previous and each terminating in a dissonance. The music then drops to a repeat of the melody, now with minimal accompaniments after which the rising phrases re-occur, this time dropping from a high climactic note and a return is made almost reluctantly (despair indeed) to the opening bare melody leading to two bleak final chords.