Dear forum members,
The moderators have decided to create and enforce a SINGLE thread on USA Politics.
This thread will cover all discussions on political developments, movements, and personalities in the United States of America.
GENERAL REMARKS:
This forum is first and foremost a classical music forum and community.
The Diner offers an opportunity for members to talk also about other topics than classical music, including politics.
But what binds us and which is the purpose of this forum, is an interest in classical music.
Those who show no or little interest in participating in the classical music discussons on this forum and whose sole or main focus is on discussing politics - consider pursuing that interest elsewhere.
We are looking for a way to make genuine, civil and intelligent discussions on US politics still possible, while maintaining a positive and cordial atmosphere between our members and without the noise, superficiality, disingenuity and animosity that have marked some of these discussions.
GUIDELINES:
1. All discussions on USA politics are to be conducted in this thread.
Any other post on USA politics, inside or outside The Diner, will be deleted immediately.
2. All discussions are to be conducted in a civil manner.
From the general forum guidelines:
Please treat other members [...] with courtesy and respect. [...] do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member.
2. Trolling will not be tolerated.
From the general forum guidelines:
A forum troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or inflammatory messages [...] with the deliberate intent to bait users into responding. This can range from very subtle jibes to outright personal attacks. [...] do not try to deliberately provoke another member into an ill-natured argument.
3. ALL posts are to contribute to a genuine and meaningful discussion. Posts need to contain a personal explanation or position. Posts with just or mainly links or quotes are not allowed. Posts need to be on topic and without comments on other members.
4. Any questionable posts will be deleted and the moderating decisions to that effect are not open for discussion or correspondence.
The moderators
QuoteALL post are to contribute to a genuine and meaningful discussion. Post need to contain a personal explanation or position. Posts with just or mainly links or quotes are not allowed.
I'm not understanding how this is supposed to work. Comments with links and quotes are some of the most informative and useful, and that definitely include comments consisting only of quotes and links to support or argue against prior comments. The last sentence is IMV inconsistent with the intent of the preceding ones.
Quote from: drogulus on June 09, 2020, 10:47:32 AM
I'm not understanding how this is supposed to work. Comments with links and quotes are some of the most informative and useful, and that definitely include comments consisting only of quotes and links to support or argue against prior comments. The last sentence is IMV inconsistent with the intent of the preceding ones.
Posts with links should have comments accompanying the links. Posts that consist of
only links will be deleted.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on June 09, 2020, 11:14:05 AM
Posts with links should have comments accompanying the links. Posts that consist of only links will be deleted.
--Bruce
Yes, you restated what I quoted. I was hoping for an explanation.
Guessing/hoping this will eventually be un-stickied once everyone gets the hang of it?
Quote from: drogulus on June 09, 2020, 11:51:02 AM
Yes, you restated what I quoted. I was hoping for an explanation.
Sorry, I misunderstood.
We don't want exchanges of links back and forth as "arguments." If a link is posted, well, tell people what you think of it, or how it has influenced you. There's a tendency to just lob quotes back and forth, with no meaningful discussion, and that's what we want to discourage.
Hope this is helpful.
--Bruce
Trump pushes unfounded conspiracy theory about 75-year-old Buffalo protesterQuote from: By CAROLYN THOMPSON and JILL COLVIN of The Associated PressWASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump on Tuesday advanced an unfounded conspiracy theory about a 75-year-old protester in Buffalo, New York, who was pushed down by police officers, tweeting without evidence that the confrontation may have been a "set up."
Any of our resident Trumpkins care to comment?
Quote from: Brewski on June 09, 2020, 01:42:47 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood.
We don't want exchanges of links back and forth as "arguments." If a link is posted, well, tell people what you think of it, or how it has influenced you. There's a tendency to just lob quotes back and forth, with no meaningful discussion, and that's what we want to discourage.
Hope this is helpful.
--Bruce
No, it's awful, even worse than I imagined, this site is the pits, I'm outta here OK that makes sense.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 09, 2020, 01:55:40 PM
Trump pushes unfounded conspiracy theory about 75-year-old Buffalo protester
Any of our resident Trumpkins care to comment?
That old guy should have been arrested for spilling a potentially dangerous chemical on a public thoroughfare.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 09, 2020, 01:55:40 PM
Trump pushes unfounded conspiracy theory about 75-year-old Buffalo protester
Any of our resident Trumpkins care to comment?
Out of curiosity, does the above quoted post meet the strictures of the below rule?
Quote from: Que on June 09, 2020, 10:18:46 AM
3. ALL posts are to contribute to a genuine and meaningful discussion. Posts need to contain a personal explanation or position. Posts with just or mainly links or quotes are not allowed. Posts need to be on topic and without comments on other members.
Silence is consent.
I'd like to philosophize on the arbitrary nature of rule parameters but I have to shampoo the iguana.
Well today's election in Georgia was a hot mess. Does not bode well for November. Yet another issue where having a Putin stooge in the White House Trümpfenbunker is a monumentally bad idea.
Good idea. It is nice to consolidate everything into one thread.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 09, 2020, 03:15:03 PM
Well today's election in Georgia was a hot mess. Does not bode well for November. Yet another issue where having a Putin stooge in the White House Trümpfenbunker is a monumentally bad idea.
It's Chinatown, Jake. Georgia was the only place where an attempt was made to do industrial strength mail vote fraud, and the Repubs were caught.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 09, 2020, 03:55:08 PM
Good idea. It is nice to consolidate everything into one thread.
I think this thread is a good idea as well. Pointless to have multiple threads on the same thing.
Quote from: Dowder on June 09, 2020, 05:20:56 PM
One reason I'd like to see Pence as president, less tweeting.
Anyways, the Buffalo mayor said a few days ago that he was a trouble maker, causing problems.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501500-buffalo-mayor-says-protester-tackled-by-state-police%3famp (https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501500-buffalo-mayor-says-protester-tackled-by-state-police%3famp)
Perhaps the most disturbing thing about that link is that 57 officers resigned from the emergency response team due to the two getting suspended. Do you think that is a good outcome, Karl?
Should they be allowed to return?
Quote from: greg on June 09, 2020, 05:16:43 PM
I think this thread is a good idea as well. Pointless to have multiple threads on the same thing.
Yeah, we're not doing video encoding.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
QuoteOne reason I'd like to see Pence as president, less tweeting.
That is the most oblique, cautious suggestion I've seen yet, that with a certain elected official: tweeting = wanking
"The Post reports, "The U.S. economy officially entered a recession in February, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research, which announced that a 128-month expansion officially ended then. The expansion, which had begun in June 2009 after a recession, was the longest on record." It should be noted that this happened before most business shutdowns occurred. While the pandemic indisputably plunged the economy further into recession, the Obama recovery — which President Trump conveniently ignored — ended on Trump's watch."
Thanks, Obama!
Quote from: Dowder on June 09, 2020, 05:20:56 PM
Perhaps the most disturbing thing about that link is that 57 officers resigned from the emergency response team due to the two getting suspended. Do you think that is a good outcome, Karl?
The disturbing thing about that aspect turns out to be the police union.
Apparently the true reason those 57 resigned from the special team [they did resign from the Buffalo PD] was that the police union decided that it would no longer do what police unions routinely do: defend them if they were disciplined in any way or sued. The 57 decided that left them too vulnerable. But the union then told everyone that the 57 had resigned as a demonstration of support for the two cops who had been arrested. Which falsehood amounted to adding insult to injury.
Quote from: Todd on June 09, 2020, 02:15:15 PM
Out of curiosity, does the above quoted post meet the strictures of the below rule?
No, to that rethorical question.
Quote from: drogulus on June 09, 2020, 03:13:10 PM
Silence is consent.
No, it isn't. We'll step in when we think it is necessary.
This thread is not a newsroom. We can all read news anywhere else on the net.
If you post a news item, I'm sure you have a good reason for it that relates to the topic of USA politics and contributes to the discussion. So, explain yourself.
What we are not looking for are easy and gratuitous bombarments (spamming) with newslinks and other people's opinions, without any genuine discussion amongst ourselves.
Q
I enjoyed the news feed of the old "Trump" thread. 8)
It was interesting to see what other members were reading.
It seems that some make declarative statements without anything to back it up. So in order to support an observation many will provide a link.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 10, 2020, 02:03:50 AM
So in order to support an observation many will provide a link.
Which is fine! :)
But we seem to spend a lot of time on discussing the rules instead of USA politics.
Quote from: Que on June 10, 2020, 02:49:25 AM
Which is fine! :)
But we seem to spend a lot of time on discussing the rules instead of USA politics.
Thanks. I apologize if I misunderstood.
Quote from: Que on June 10, 2020, 02:49:25 AMBut we seem to spend a lot of time on discussing the rules instead of USA politics.
Maybe an indication that the rules don't make any sense?
Quote from: Old San Antone on June 10, 2020, 06:12:54 AM
I welcome the rules and they make sense, i.e. the forum is designed for people to discuss things, not just post links to articles past each other. For myself, I have no interest in the political threads, and see them as causing such discord among the participants that there is a risk that those relationships are soured across the other music threads. I bet it wouldn't matter what Dowder posts in the Listening thread, his opponents here will not have much nice to say. And another thing, it is obvious that almost all of the people on the political threads share the same ideological bias - which puts stress on the one or two from the opposing side. One can only take it so long when your opinion is trivialized and ridiculed by a mob.
For the life of me I don't understand why these political threads appear to be so important to some members. But, since this will be my last post here, y'all are on your own.
Good luck ...
8)
I find the posts which point out an external article with salient and reliable information to be the most useful part of the "political" threads. I used to prefer it here compared with TalkClassical because there was less moderator interference here. Moderation at TalkClassical has become less intrusive and moderation here has become more intrusive here, so things have reversed.
Quote from: Que on June 09, 2020, 10:18:46 AM
GUIDELINES:
1. All discussions on USA politics are to be conducted in this thread.
Any other post on USA politics, inside or outside The Diner, will be deleted immediately.
2. All discussions are to be conducted in a civil manner.
From the general forum guidelines:
Please treat other members [...] with courtesy and respect. [...] do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member.
2. Trolling will not be tolerated.
From the general forum guidelines:
A forum troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or inflammatory messages [...] with the deliberate intent to bait users into responding. This can range from very subtle jibes to outright personal attacks. [...] do not try to deliberately provoke another member into an ill-natured argument.
3. ALL posts are to contribute to a genuine and meaningful discussion. Posts need to contain a personal explanation or position. Posts with just or mainly links or quotes are not allowed. Posts need to be on topic and without comments on other members.
4. Any questionable posts will be deleted and the moderating decisions to that effect are not open for discussion or correspondence.
The moderators
I'd like to discuss some procedural issues around these guidelines. I may have some personal opinions at the end:
1. I don't believe the forum policies account for this. But there is a tradition of merging and changing threads here. So I would suggest merging them into this thread instead of outright deleting them. If a post is made in good faith and it follows forum policies, then there is no basis for deleting it.
2. No issue. This is forum policy.
3. This is not forum policy. I do not believe any member or group of members has the authority to unilaterally impose new policies that are not forum policies. So either this needs to be adopted as a forum wide policy or it needs to be dropped.
4. This is incredibly unclear and has no meaning. If a post violates forum policy, then some action needs to be taken. If it does not, you either need to get the forum policy changed (to incorporate the issue) or there is nothing you can do about it. Moderators cannot unilaterally decide to delete stuff (in my opinion) if it follows forum guidelines.
As an aside, I understand the desire to make changes around politics. They have been quite contentious. But I would suggest that in some areas, you have gone beyond what is needed. I would suggest that had moderator action been more stringent earlier on, we would perhaps be in a different position. I completely understand the challenges in moderating this subject, so I write that with complete respect.
On point #3, I think that is a huge mistake. Throughout the forum, there are many posts with responses that contain links and minimal or no text. And they contribute greatly to the conversation. On top of that, you do not have the authority (from the materials and links I have available to me) to unilaterally make this change. If you think you do, I'd like to see why. Perhaps you could provide a link (with detailed explanation of course :) ).
Quote from: Old San Antone on June 10, 2020, 06:12:54 AM
And another thing, it is obvious that almost all of the people on the political threads share the same ideological bias - which puts stress on the one or two from the opposing side.
From "inside the mob" it doesn't look like that. The mob is where ideological diversity flourishes and disagreement sparks conversations that are informative. From outside it might not look like that.
Political agreements against the current regime are uniting a wide variety of political tendencies. That's not indicative of ideological uniformity.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 10, 2020, 06:45:08 AM
I find the posts which point out an external article with salient and reliable information to be the most useful part of the "political" threads.
I agree on the importance of links. I do like to include excerpts of articles I link to, and often a bit of my own argument.
Stephanie Kelton has a piece in the Times on what she calls the "deficit myth", encroaching on Krugmanland. Their dispute is a good example of what's going on among mob tyrants, and this is also the case with police reform and SomethingCare For All.
Quote from: Dowder on June 09, 2020, 08:43:57 PM
Found an article that has officers speaking on anonymity confirming that. A common critique I've seen is that the unions are supposedly to blame for shielding bad cops but in this current atmosphere of hysterics anything and everything is scrutinized. The average cop already had a thankless job, made even more so by the tyranny of the media and mob.
"Atmosphere of hysterics?" Yeah! Why would anyone get upset about thousands of peaceful protestors and members of the media being assaulted by thugs in riot gear for exercising their first amendment rights?
"Everything is being scrutinized?" You mean the tiny percentage of all of the assaults that have resulted in disciplinary actions?
In a constitutional democracy, those violating the foundational document at the behest of those who have never read it are unlikely to be thanked. They'd better get used to it or find another job.
Quote from: Dowder on June 10, 2020, 01:29:38 PM
Calling police officers doing their duty to maintain law and order "thugs" won't help.
He didn't say police officers doing their duty to maintain law and order are thugs. He's talking about thugs in riot gear who are police officers. I understand the distinction. Most people see it, because so much of it is there to be seen.
Quote from: Dowder on June 10, 2020, 01:29:38 PM
Claiming the other side hasn't read the constitution isn't just inaccurate, it's unfair. However, many will be leaving the force and we'll have to see just how beneficial to society that will be.
A thug deprived police force will do a better job. It will be possible to build better relations with minority communities if they are not terrorized violence from both criminals and police. Is it hard to understand what that is like, to fear both sides? It's getting harder to not understand, and public opinion reflects that.
Again conservatives have a habit of accusing Democrats and liberals of being something the vast majority of them are not.
There are over three hundred million people in this county and I am sure there may be a few million who believe most police officer are thugs.
I am not one of them. The vast majority of us liberals feel that 90% of the police officers are good dedicated people who put their lives on the line fulfilling their duties.
Stop accusing us of hating police officers because we are concerned about the actions of the 10%.
Why the fright over holding the police accountable? Why, there are even patriotic Americans who believe that the President should be accountable.
One problem with policing is the "I've got your back" mentality, which means that good officers have no choice but to look the other way when rogue officers act out. I read (somewhere) about a Buffalo police officer reported brutality by a fellow officer. The result was the the officer who reported the behavior was fired and her pension was denied. The rogue officer suffered no consequences. In circumstances like this corruption may be impossible to root out.
The city of Camden New Jersey had this problem. They fired their entire police department and started a new police department from scratch. They still have major problems in the city of Camden, but at least the police department is not one of them.
I do wonder if an enlightening and factual discussion of criminology can occur on GMG.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 10, 2020, 03:37:55 PM
If everything here is so dull and uniformed why don't you leave?
There are many well informed posts by a few posters in other parts of the forum that are well worth reading.
As to "discussions" about criminology, they seem highly unlikely on this forum. I think it is safe to say that all posters on this forum would agree that a reduction in the use of lethal force by the police would be a good thing. Similarly, it is reasonable to surmise that all or almost all people would like to see a reduction in the use of other forms of extreme violence by the police, and at least some scaling back of the use of military tactics and equipment by the police. Excessive reliance on violent coercive power by the state is bad and antithetical to liberty as well as justice. What is unlikely to occur on this forum, based on history, is a reliance on factual data and posts that even attempt to be genuine or meaningful, as was laid out in the opening post. Peruse the posts to date if you doubt that.
Quote from: Todd on June 10, 2020, 03:35:38 PM
I do wonder if an enlightening and factual discussion of criminology can occur on GMG.
Exactly the sort of pointless snark I somehow thought we could avoid.
re links and quotes: I've posted many in my time, some with comments, many more without. Usually the intention, or one intention, was to offer it as the start of a discussion, which is often what happened. But I'm not sure I posted them in place of an argument, and I certainly don't remember any "dueling links" form of non-conversation. But whatever, being less lazy about my posting will be good for me.
So this happened:
Trump campaign demands CNN retract poll showing big Biden lead (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/502120-trump-campaign-demands-cnn-retract-poll-showing-big-biden-lead)
"President Trump's reelection campaign has sent a cease and desist letter to CNN President Jeff Zucker demanding that the network retract its recent poll showing Trump trailing Democratic presidential rival Joe Biden by 14 points.
The demand from the campaign was quickly rejected by CNN spokesman Matt Dornic and the network's general counsel David Vigilante on Wednesday.
"We stand by our poll," Dornic said in a story from CNN reporting on the Trump campaign's demand.
Trump and his campaign have lashed out over the CNN poll, which was conducted by SSRS and released earlier this week. The survey showed Trump trailing the former vice president by a 55 percent to 41 percent margin among registered voters.
"It's a stunt and a phony poll to cause voter suppression, stifle momentum and enthusiasm for the President, and present a false view generally of the actual support across America for the President," reads the letter signed by Trump 2020 senior legal adviser Jenna Ellis and the campaign's chief operating officer, Michael Glassner.
The letter, which cites Trump pollster John McLaughlin, also demands a "full, fair, and conspicuous retraction, apology, and clarification to correct its misleading conclusions" while also claiming that the poll is "designed to mislead American voters through a biased questionnaire and skewed sampling."[...]
Comments? Well, two to start: firstly, if they were trying to "suppress the vote" they'd be saying that Trump is waaay ahead and there's no reason to feel they need to go vote because its such a done deal that he's getting reelected, this on the other hand will make them redouble their efforts. Secondly, if a few days ago I suggested that Trump is capable of sending a cease and desist order for a poll he didn't like the Trumpist-adjacent would have cried "preposterous", and, oh yes, "Trump Derangement Syndrome!!"
I see you're back at it again, Simon. :-\ Glutton for punishment or do you honestly feel it'll be different this time around than when you left the forum the last time?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 10, 2020, 04:40:10 PM
I see you're back at it again, Simon. :-\ Glutton for punishment or do you honestly feel it'll be different this time around than when you left the forum the last time?
Well. thanks for the "undecided" emoji. Stop, your're making me blush. Will it be different? That's the experiment, isn't it?
Any thoughts on the post above about Trump sending a cease and desist order for a poll he didn't like?
Trump has announced that he will have his first rally in Tulsa next week on June 19.
This, coming on top of his tweet today announcing that the army bases named after Confederate generals will not be renamed, has left people wondering if he's truly ignorant or really does want to stick his thumb in the eye of America's blacks.
If the date and place don't ring a bell, google Juneteenth and Black Wall Street.
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 10, 2020, 04:50:42 PM
Well. thanks for the "undecided" emoji. Stop, your're making me blush. Will it be different? That's the experiment, isn't it?
Any thoughts on the post above about Trump sending a cease and desist order for a poll he didn't like?
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of politics and talking about them. I've pretty much quit watching the news, because it's depressing and has in no way benefited my own life. Anyway, I believe a person should live their own lives and that there are evil people out there that will do you harm no matter what the consequences are, but since there has been man, there has been evil. Nothing will ever change. That's all I'm going to say.
Quote from: JBS on June 10, 2020, 05:58:23 PM
Trump has announced that he will have his first rally in Tulsa next week on June 19.
This, coming on top of his tweet today announcing that the army bases named after Confederate generals will not be renamed, has left people wondering if he's truly ignorant or really does want to stick his thumb in the eye of America's blacks.
If the date and place don't ring a bell, google Juneteenth and Black Wall Street.
Trump has used race-baiting as one of his primary political tools since he came down the escalator. Before, even. He thinks it's a winner. It helped in 2016. It won't be as effective this time around. Massive protests in the streets are occasionally correlated with party changes in the White House (eg, 1968, 1992).
Quote from: Dowder on June 10, 2020, 06:53:56 PM
What was also unique to '68 and '92? Third party candidates who took disgruntled voters away. Wallace and Perot changed the outcome of those presidential races. No such candidate this year to siphon off voters.
Correct. That means no one to siphon voters from Biden.
Quote from: Dowder on June 10, 2020, 08:23:12 PMIf we can get a full economic rebound by the end of summer
There is a 0% probability of that occurring. The Fed is projecting 9.3% U3 at end of year, with a massive 6.5% drop in GDP. Slick Willy's admonition holds today as it did in '92.
Although it is already well established that the public health is not a priority for Trump: "Trump announces rallies in states where new infections are surging."
"Texas, Arkansas, South Carolina, Nevada, Arizona, North Carolina, Oregon, Florida and Utah all set new highs in seven-day rolling case averages Wednesday, according to Post data.
Montana, Arkansas, Utah, Arizona and Texas have all seen coronavirus hospitalizations rise by at least 35 percent in the weeks since Memorial Day."
Of course, President Disinformation is pretending that we are "post-coronavirus" the presidential idiocy is criminal and lethal.
Quote from: Dowder on June 11, 2020, 06:09:36 AMI know, but unlike '92 other countries are facing contraction due to Covid-19, so people understand there's an extraordinary reason for the unemployment and not something triggered by bad or reckless policies by Trump.
Voters understood that the '07-'08 recession was not caused by Bush and the Republican Party, that the '90-'91 recession was not caused by a different Bush, that the '80 recession was not caused by Carter, and so on. The top guy takes too much credit for good times, and takes too much blame for bad times. It comes with the job. The economy alone will sink Trump. Combine that with his very poor response to the public health aspects of Covid, which cannot outweigh his very strong economic response to the crisis, and the ineffectiveness of his race-baiting this time around, and he's facing a triple whammy. Americans can elect another doddering old man who says racist things to be president. If Super-Creepy 46 selects a woman of color as his veep, voters can assuage their consciences by voting for a ticket that looks like America, to use vapid political parlance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyyV2g2H/wJi4YhW.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(* chortle *)
Federal Arrests Show No Sign that Antifa Plotted Protests (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/antifa-protests-george-floyd.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)
A review of the arrests of dozens of people on federal charges reveals no known effort by antifa to perpetrate a coordinated campaign of violence. Some criminal complaints described vague, anti-government political leanings among suspects, but the majority of the violent acts that have taken place at protests have been attributed by federal prosecutors to individuals with no affiliation to any particular group.
Even so, Attorney General William P. Barr has blamed antifa for orchestrating the mass protests, which broke out in cities and towns across the country following the death in police custody of George Floyd. "There is clearly some high degree of organization involved at some of these events and coordinated tactics that we are seeing," Mr. Barr said. "Some of it relates to antifa, some of it relates to groups that act very much like antifa."
Barr does the "usual suspects" thing blatantly. Facts, enlightenment and criminology are absent.
Antifa members are not shy. If they are involved they will let you know. They want people to know they are fighting fascism.
Antifa is organized at the local level. There's no formal national leadership.
Barr opines that mass protests are organized by antifa. That fails completely. Antifa members might participate, and probably do.
It remains to be determined how the protests were organized and how centralized the process was.
Quote from: Dowder on June 11, 2020, 11:32:19 AMDifference was those recessions were caused within the structure and linked those administrations far more to the contraction while Covid-19 has nothing to do with fiscal or monetary policies, trade, the stock market, regulations, etc.
The cause does not matter.
Quote from: Dowder on June 11, 2020, 11:32:19 AMhe'll still be able to blame China since they covered it up initially
No, he won't.
Chump says COVID-19 is now "reduced to the embers and ashes of a spent pandemic." 1299 Americans died of COVID on Tuesday.
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2020, 12:16:52 PM
The cause does not matter.
No, he won't.
Exactly. A competent POTUS would have taken into account that the Chinese might have been lying and the WHO bumbling, and taken steps to prepare for the virus to spread. In which the death toll would not be as high, the lockdown measures not necessarily as stringent, the economic consequences possibly not as bad.
Quote from: JBS on June 11, 2020, 12:42:07 PM
Exactly. A competent POTUS would have taken into account that the Chinese might have been lying and the WHO bumbling, and taken steps to prepare for the virus to spread.
He was told in January by his intelligence advisors that the Chinese were covering up the extent of the virus spread.
The WHO depends on the cooperation of sovereign governments and is wary of getting on the wrong side of the most powerful members in particular. In addition they didn't want to be kicked out of the country. So while accurate information about conditions arrived from the same Chinese researchers the ChiComs were squelching, the WHO delayed the announcement of human to human spread. They fumbled at the announcement level undoubtedly for the reason I cite. This didn't delay by much the information that the transmission was occurring and can't be turned into an excuse for the massive and deadly failure in the US national response and appointing evangelical twerp Dr. Redfield to headless the CDC.
Martin Gugino has suffered brain damage, and is aware of it.
Seperately, Donald Litigious Trump is requiring liability waivers for anyone attending the rallies which only his infantile neediness requires.
Quote from: Dowder on June 11, 2020, 05:57:47 PM
Yea it does, as it is fundamentally different from others recessions.
Incorrect in two ways. First, it is not fundamentally different. Second, people invariably vote against the party in power during Depressions. If you insist on the importance of the external nature of the cause, then the election of 1896 is instructive.
Quote from: Dowder on June 11, 2020, 05:57:47 PM
The Never Trumpers act like the rest of the world hasn't been affected by Covid-19.
Really? Of course we appreciate the effect of Covid19.
Quote from: Dowder on June 11, 2020, 06:05:09 PM
Link?
What the :o
Are you the only one here who does not know this.
Trump acts like the only American whose risk of COVID-19 matters is his precious self
From a recent column by Geo. Will. the overall piece discusses how Trump's troop withdrawal from Germany is both ill-advised, and petulantly puerile. The excerpt is offered for Todd, as an example of how scorn can be eloquently rhetorical rather than merely the extrusion of pettiness.
"Trump is terrified of appearing weak. Polls indicate an increasing probability that he will slink away a loser. He makes some national security decisions from petulance. And he is fascinated with the military as a presidential toy for his amusement, self-expression and political posturing (e.g., the testosterone spill in Lafayette Square)."
Biden and Trump both warn the other side may 'steal' the election, as the fight over mail voting rages (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/06/12/election-2020-biden-says-his-concern-trump-steal-election/5341340002/)
Both candidates are openly using language that sets the stage for calling into question the legitimacy of the election outcome. This is either a terrible situation, or a potentially useful one, depending on outlook. The legitimacy of American democracy itself is under assault.
It does rather make one wonder why Europeans and others are so keen to cling to antiquated security arrangements. Dissolving NATO and fracturing other security arrangements (a modified Five Eyes aside) would be good for the world.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 11, 2020, 07:44:43 PM
Really? Of course we appreciate the effect of Covid19.
And, it ain't just NeverTrumpers:
https://www.youtube.com/v/XgqOD7BECNc
I thought I made another post yesterday? Seemed too have disappeared.
#goBaldforBLM and CHAZ are both new things that are hilarious.
There was one suggestion someone made about having a hash tag #suicideForBLM. Lol. :P
Mainly waiting to see just how ironic that CHAZ can possibly get.
If Trumpsters still support him after the virus waiver, they are a lost cause.
A few weeks ago in another thread I expressed my concerns that if Trump lost the election he would refuse to leave office and we would not have a peaceful transition.
One of the defenders of Trump accused me of being paranoid.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 12, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
A few weeks ago in another thread I expressed my concerns that if Trump lost the election he would refuse to leave office and we would not have a peaceful transition.
One of the defenders of Trump accused me of being paranoid.
Doesn't sound paranoid at all.
Quote from: Dowder on June 11, 2020, 06:05:09 PM
So much for non-partisan international organizations, who are too scared to stand up to a corrupt aggressor nation, let a virus spread, people die. I'm sure it's more comforting to blame the "evangelical twerp" instead of the "Chinese with socialistic characteristics."
The weakness of the WHO is not a matter of political partisanship. It's designed to serve sovereign governments the way it does, while attempting to halt the virus spread.
It's understood what China did initially and how they fought the virus with socialistic characteristics after. I don't know how you come to a different conclusion. Even if they have not entirely come clean on the numbers they report, the response of the national government has been far more effective that the US response with Trumpist characteristics.
Start there, with how the Chinese effort compares not just with Trump but with other autocratic governments. How did they recover from their initial mistakes? Somehow they allowed information to flow up and sane directives to flow down in a way that Trumpists and autocrats all over the world did not.
Perhaps you know how that happened. Tell us how China doesn't have millions of cases and the US does.
1) China is totalitarian. If they tell their subjects to not leave home, their subjects are not going to leave home.
2) There is no reason to believe China is honest with its statistics. It's merely a case of guessing how dishonest they are.
Quote from: JBS on June 12, 2020, 08:34:40 AM
1) China is totalitarian. If they tell their subjects to not leave home, their subjects are not going to leave home.
2) There is no reason to believe China is honest with its statistics. It's merely a case of guessing how dishonest they are.
Totalitarianism isn't a good explanation. It neither requires nor forbids an effective response. A more democratic Chinese government would probably have acted in a similar fashion, without the propaganda but the same kind of restrictions to combat the virus spread. If you want to contrast what China did with what the US did, it's the US that departed from sound practice, not China.
I make allowance for Chinese data manipulation. It no longer matters because we know too much about the scale of the outbreak there. Just as in the US, we'll discover errors, deliberate and not, in how cases and deaths are recorded.
The essential point remains, the China "whattabout" is founded on an exclusive focus on the initial coverup and the dubious influence of socialistic characteristics. If socialist somethings are an explanation of success and failure wherever found, I think it isn't really explaining anything.
Quote from: drogulus on June 12, 2020, 09:12:47 AM
Totalitarianism isn't a good explanation. It neither requires nor forbids an effective response. A more democratic Chinese government would probably have acted in a similar fashion, without the propaganda but the same kind of restrictions to combat the virus spread. If you want to contrast what China did with what the US did, it's the US that departed from sound practice, not China.
I make allowance for Chinese data manipulation. It no longer matters because we know too much about the scale of the outbreak there. Just as in the US, we'll discover errors, deliberate and not, in how cases and deaths are recorded.
The essential point remains, the China "whattabout" is founded on an exclusive focus on the initial coverup and the dubious influence of socialistic characteristics. If socialist somethings are an explanation of success and failure wherever found, I think it isn't really explaining anything.
In China if you broke lockdown you could go to jail
In the US if you broke lockdown you could end up being featured on Fox.
It's a fundamental difference.
And we actually don't know the scale of the outbreak there, since all the data is controlled by a government that has every incentive to manipulate the data.
Quote from: JBS on June 12, 2020, 09:53:01 AM
In China if you broke lockdown you could go to jail
In the US if you broke lockdown you could end up being featured on Fox.
It's a fundamental difference.
And we actually don't know the scale of the outbreak there, since all the data is controlled by a government that has every incentive to manipulate the data.
It hasn't turned out to be a fundamental difference between countries with strict lockdowns. It would have to be or the factor can be ignored, so I do. This has nothing to do with how you feel about totalitarians. If you work back from results to reasons for getting them the jail factor isn't much help.
If we had followed the pandemic rulebook as early in the outbreak as China did we probably could have done as well. Our failure is that we didn't. China delayed reporting the extent of the outbreak for days. I think the local government hid information from national leaders for some time.
Quote from: drogulus on June 12, 2020, 10:39:31 AM
It hasn't turned out to be a fundamental difference between countries with strict lockdowns. It would have to be or the factor can be ignored, so I do. This has nothing to do with how you feel about totalitarians. If you work back from results to reasons for getting them the jail factor isn't much help.
If we had followed the pandemic rulebook as early in the outbreak as China did we probably could have done as well. Our failure is that we didn't. China delayed reporting the extent of the outbreak for days. I think the local government hid information from national leaders for some time.
Nor did it help that Presiddent Feed-My-Ego refused to take the threat seriously for as long as he did.
Of course, with his eageerness to hold rallies, it hardly seems he hss learnt to take it with any seriousness at all.
Quote from: drogulus on June 12, 2020, 10:39:31 AM
It hasn't turned out to be a fundamental difference between countries with strict lockdowns. It would have to be or the factor can be ignored, so I do. This has nothing to do with how you feel about totalitarians. If you work back from results to reasons for getting them the jail factor isn't much help.
If we had followed the pandemic rulebook as early in the outbreak as China did we probably could have done as well. Our failure is that we didn't. China delayed reporting the extent of the outbreak for days. I think the local government hid information from national leaders for some time.
Ironic. You make the same mistake as Trump. You are not nearly as skeptical of China as you ought to be.
The fact that China is a whatever, evil empire does not absolve Trump from his mismanagement of the situation.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 12, 2020, 12:58:59 PM
The fact that China is a whatever, evil empire does not absolve Trump from his mismanagement of the situation.
Seems obvious, doth it not?
Quote from: JBS on June 12, 2020, 10:57:09 AM
Ironic. You make the same mistake as Trump. You are not nearly as skeptical of China as you ought to be.
You aren't being skeptical about China and neither am I. You are skeptical about the size of the Chinese outbreak as determined by all of the measures available to health officials and intelligence experts. You think China has powers of concealment it doesn't have. That's a lack of skepticism, not far from conspiracy thinking, though not quite as extravagant as some of that is.
Quote from: Dowder on June 12, 2020, 11:23:55 AM
He's too busy passing all the blame off on to the "evangelical twerps" while extenuating the godless totalitarians.
The US case total is over 2 million right now, far higher than China and it's very likely China will never catch up. Supposing they are undercounting cases at a higher rate than we are, their case total is somewhere over a hundred thousand, more than Massachusetts and less than New York state.
Who I prefer doesn't matter. I don't hate Trump into 10,000,000 more cases, so I won't hate China into 50,000,000 more cases.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 12, 2020, 12:58:59 PM
The fact that China is a whatever, evil empire does not absolve Trump from his mismanagement of the situation.
We can judge the performance of different countries without applying junk theories about concealment superpowers.
The kind of opaqueness misattributed to the heathen Chinese exists in N. Korea. We don't know how many cases they have. China is a model of transparency in comparison, and I'm sure this gives their government a headache.
lack of skepticism and conspiracy thinking... It's more complex than that. Though this could be applicable to the very low IQ type of conspiracy theorist.
Quote from: greg on June 12, 2020, 02:52:58 PM
lack of skepticism and conspiracy thinking... It's more complex than that. Though this could be applicable to the very low IQ type of conspiracy theorist.
Skepticism should be balanced so that you don't go too far in the other direction. In China many provinces have had tiny outbreaks with deaths in the single digits. That's consistent with the story of Chinese success in limiting the outbreak after the initial missteps. It's wildly improbable that the many health officials who have helped us get a true picture of what's happening in the country have just gone silent. If they have, where are we getting information which could be used to counter suspicious Chinese claims?
The ChiCom perfidy narrative doesn't hold up, and it's not because the Chinese are not perfidious. It's because it has no foundation.
Georgia Republican and QAnon believer favored to win U.S. House seat (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/georgia-republican-and-qanon-believer-favored-to-win-us-house-seat/2020/06/11/f52bc004-ac13-11ea-a9d9-a81c1a491c52_story.html)
"Republican candidate Marjorie Taylor Greene, a professed believer in the fringe conspiracy-theorist group known as QAnon, is probably headed to Congress after her strong finish in the Georgia primary.
House Republican leaders were silent Thursday about the likelihood that their caucus may soon include someone affiliated with a group that the FBI has flagged as a potential domestic terrorist threat.
None of the top three House Republicans, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (Calif.), Minority Whip Steve Scalise (La.) or Republican Conference Chair Liz Cheney (Wyo.), responded to questions about Greene's candidacy and possible place within their ranks.
Greene finished first in Tuesday's primary with 41 percent of the vote in the strongly Republican district in northwest Georgia but was shy of the majority of the vote. She will face a runoff Aug. 11 against physician John Cowan, who trailed her by 20 percentage points.
As long as Greene's support holds and she wins that race, she should easily win the House seat in November and replace retiring Rep. Tom Graves (R-Ga.). In 2016, Georgia's 14th Congressional District elected Donald Trump with 75 percent of the vote.
Greene would become the first member of Congress to have publicly espoused the views of QAnon, the extremist group that believes President Trump is quietly leading a revolution against the "deep state." It maintains a baseless conspiracy theory that there is a secret pedophile operation run by the nation's most prominent people, particularly those within the Democratic Party.
"The Chinese propagandists at the Washington Post are attacking me the same way they attack Donald Trump, and other conservatives," Greene said in an emailed statement. "Northwest Georgians are proud, conservative America-loving patriots. ... I won't let them be bullied by the hate America leftists at the Washington Post."
Greene's campaign did not answer questions about her support for QAnon, but in a lengthy response attacked Georgia Democrat Stacey Abrams, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) and Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.).
Greene has posted videos lifting QAnon conspiracy theories and praising its anonymous leader, "Q."
"Q is a patriot. He is someone that very much loves his country, and he's on the same page as us, and he is very pro-Trump," she said in a 2017 video posted to YouTube. In the video, she talks about an "awakening" that will expose deep corruption and unite Americans behind Trump.
"I'm very excited about that now there's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take this global cabal of Satan-worshipping pedophiles out, and I think we have the president to do it," she said."[...]
-
A serious question: what kind of self-policing can or does exist at a local level as to whether a candidate wishing to stand as a "Republican" actually expresses their party's broader view and whether same candidate would bring embarrassment to the party? What kind of vetting?
Or is it a simple "can they get votes and we don't care how: yes/no"?
Yes, I know the question sounds massively naive in the post-Palin age, but really: how does this play out at the local level?
At the local level it's a matter of the local party leaders trying to back one candidate over the other. Which can back fire, especially in a low turnout election, which is likely in any local primary (remember AOC won a primary with a relatively low turnout).
So it's a question of how familiar she was to the local politicians. The state and national GOP probably had never heard her name before she ran.
Of course Trump tweeted in support of her.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trumps-boosts-candidate-who-posed-with-neo-nazi-peddles-anti-semitic-conspiracy/
Yes, but I kind of mean even before that. Can you put yourself forward as a Republican candidate, without the party saying "we don't recognize you as a Republican and you cannot run under our banner?
Quote from: JBS on June 12, 2020, 05:43:20 PMThe state and national GOP probably had never heard her name before she ran.
The power of Google and two minutes yields the following: Jim Jordan endorsed her at the beginning of the year. She has raised almost $1.2 million to her main Republican rival's ~$700K. That kind of scratch in that kind of district means she has a reasonably good organization, which means that she knows some people. In contrast, the Democrat tomato can in the district has raised about $9000, at least if the FEC is to be trusted.
She pledges to stop Socialism, and her district is strongly Republican. Ms Greene has a very good chance of heading to the House.
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 12, 2020, 06:00:57 PM
Yes, but I kind of mean even before that. Can you put yourself forward as a Republican candidate, without the party saying "we don't recognize you as a Republican and you cannot run under our banner?
Yes. Obviously it varies from place to place but the basic requirement is that one be registered on the voting rolls as a Republican (or Democrat or other). Beyond that it's meeting the state requirements for filing fees and voter signatures. The party apparatus can at most tell people not to vote for X. And the voters are free to ignore the party apparatus.
The National party can give her no support, if it wants. But no one can keep her off the ballot.
Quote from: drogulus on June 12, 2020, 03:23:23 PM
Skepticism should be balanced so that you don't go too far in the other direction. In China many provinces have had tiny outbreaks with deaths in the single digits. That's consistent with the story of Chinese success in limiting the outbreak after the initial missteps. It's wildly improbable that the many health officials who have helped us get a true picture of what's happening in the country have just gone silent. If they have, where are we getting information which could be used to counter suspicious Chinese claims?
The ChiCom perfidy narrative doesn't hold up, and it's not because the Chinese are not perfidious. It's because it has no foundation.
I was going to say that if I think about it, conspiracy theory isn't defined by amount of skepticism, but where it is directed.
Quote from: drogulus on June 12, 2020, 03:23:23 PM
Skepticism should be balanced so that you don't go too far in the other direction.
Balance is not always a good thing when you are up against another imbalance. That could be your downfall... and maybe why you scored like an angel on the Dark Triad test? 0:) :D
If you've ever known a compulsive liar, would you still maintain balanced skepticism? Now imagine that compulsive liar is the entire government. Sure, they tell the truth sometimes, but it's much safer to be, say 80% skeptical and 20% trusting. Or maybe even 90% skeptical.
Perhaps you can have the luxury of balanced skepticism in the US and some other countries, but not in China.
Received the following from one of my music conductors. Might loosen things up.
Senior Mandates
#1 - Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice
#2 - "In Style" are the clothes that still fit
#3 - You don't need anger management. You need people to stop making you mad.
#4 - Your people skills are just fine. It's your tolerance for idiots that needs work.
#5 - The biggest lie you tell yourself is, "I don't need to write that down. I'll remember it."
#6 - "On time" is when you get there.
#7 - Even duct tape can't fix stupid - but it sure does muffle the sound.
#8 - It would be wonderful if we could put ourselves in the dryer for ten minutes, then come out wrinkle-free and three sizes smaller?
#9 - Lately, You've noticed people your age are so much older than you.
#10 - Growing old should have taken longer.
#11 - Aging has slowed you down, but it hasn't shut you up.
#12 - You still haven't learned to act your age, and hope you never will.
And one more:
"One for the road" means peeing before you leave the house.
Trump moves his Tulsa rally from Juneteenth to June 20 'out of respect' (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-moves-tulsa-rally-juneteenth-june-20-respect/story?id=71231688)
Look at that, Trump displaying racial sensitivity.
Quote from: Super-Creepy 46What in God's name is this guy doing? And now did you hear what he just did? He's having a rally on Juneteenth in...Arizona
Who says acute senility isn't funny?
Bring on the debate.
The economy trumps all.
Quote from: Dowder on June 12, 2020, 04:53:38 PM
Communist governments don't have a good history of telling the truth, from the Holdomor, the Great Famine, the Killing Fields and Chernobyl. The fact you have to be reminded of this is appalling. The Chinese kicked out the American journalists in March because they were clearly a threat to the official narrative.
My concern is what we know about what happened in China regarding the virus, not the history of Communist government. I appreciate your acknowledgement of "lamestream" journalists (it's in the NYTimes!!).
Could you at least try to support your thesis? What is it, by the way? What is the lie? How many million are dead?
Quote from: greg on June 12, 2020, 07:11:41 PM
If you've ever known a compulsive liar, would you still maintain balanced skepticism?
How do you determine when a liar is telling the truth? There must be evidence to consider. What's the evidence for millions of dead Chinese, or how does Chicom perfidy tell you they must be there?
Suppose we know the size of the Chinese outbreak. We do, but just suppose we do. That should tell us what the Chinese are lying about, and of course it does. The goal should be to let neither China nor our own biases fool us.
Quote from: drogulus on June 13, 2020, 06:43:12 AM
How do you determine when a liar is telling the truth? There must be evidence to consider. What's the evidence for millions of dead Chinese, or how does Chicom perfidy tell you they must be there?
Suppose we know the size of the Chinese outbreak. We do, but just suppose we do. That should tell us what the Chinese are lying about, and of course it does. The goal should be to let neither China nor our own biases fool us.
We don't know the size of the outbreak. We only know what Chinese authorities tell us is the size of the outbreak. That's a crucial difference.
Quote from: JBS on June 13, 2020, 08:21:39 AM
We don't know the size of the outbreak. We only know what Chinese authorities tell us is the size of the outbreak. That's a crucial difference.
I don't restrict myself to official pronouncements and you probably don't either, so I don't know why you would say that. China lifted the Wuhan lockdown in early April. No matter whose propaganda you believe, they did that. I'm sure they are as guilty of massaging numbers as anyone can be, but they are not miracle workers. They can't keep a pandemic secret from the whole world's prying eyes. Much of their propaganda is trying to plug the leaks of a zillion Chinese expert at getting news to the outside world.
Quote from: drogulus on June 13, 2020, 11:47:34 AM
I don't restrict myself to official pronouncements and you probably don't either, so I don't know why you would say that. China lifted the Wuhan lockdown in early April. No matter whose propaganda you believe, they did that. I'm sure they are as guilty of massaging numbers as anyone can be, but they are not miracle workers. They can't keep a pandemic secret from the whole world's prying eyes. Much of their propaganda is trying to plug the leaks of a zillion Chinese expert at getting news to the outside world.
Please link any data that is not from, or dependent on, sources under the control of the Chinese authorities.
I am aware of none.
Quote from: JBS on June 13, 2020, 11:51:32 AM
Please link any data that is not from, or dependent on, sources under the control of the Chinese authorities.
I am aware of none.
The data China uses, and possibly distorts, comes from Chinese experts that freely communicate with their colleagues around the world. They are "under the authority" of the Chinese government. We know enough about what Chinese experts tell their government that our own experts and intelligence agencies can use the information to measure the degree that China actually is producing false numbers. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that heroic Chinese doctors and epidemiologists would have received instructions to lie to the world, and then obey the instructions when they talk to friends and colleague everywhere. And not a hint that this is happening, no alarm bells are sounded by anyone? I don't think that's credible, or possible.
Quote from: drogulus on June 13, 2020, 12:02:50 PM
The data China uses, and possibly distorts, comes from Chinese experts that freely communicate with their colleagues around the world. They are "under the authority" of the Chinese government. We know enough about what Chinese experts tell their government that our own experts and intelligence agencies can use the information to measure the degree that China actually is producing false numbers. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that heroic Chinese doctors and epidemiologists would have received instructions to lie to the world, and then obey the instructions when they talk to friends and colleague everywhere. And not a hint that this is happening, no alarm bells are sounded by anyone? I don't think that's credible, or possible.
And the intelligence agencies shared their conclusions with you?
And how do you know that "we know enough"? You are just assuming things are true because you want them to be true.
Couldn't help myself (i.e. in sharing; I didn't create it)
AOC is a sitting member of Congress. She is part of the establishment.
In somewhat unexpected news, Steve Scalise is by far the biggest House fundraiser, raking in over $19 million. Second place Kevin McCarthy has pulled in a paltry $12 million in comparison.
And of course this is peanuts compared to the battle for Frankfort. Between them, Cocaine Mitch and Amy McGrath have pulled in over $73 million - with Ms McGrath significantly outraising Mitch. Oh noes!
Isn't there some Bernie Bro currently upsetting the McGrath campaign against McConnell and largely doing McConnell's attacks for him?
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 13, 2020, 05:45:23 PM
Isn't there some Bernie Bro currently upsetting the McGrath campaign against McConnell and largely doing McConnell's attacks for him?
I was reading about that just 10 minutes ago.
I'm not sure if it's correct to call him a Bernie Bro.
https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/06/13/booker-mcgrath-mcconnell-kentucky-senate-316201
Quote from: Dowder on June 13, 2020, 08:50:02 PMFrom a few days ago, amid all the chaos of late, Biden renews interest in reparations for slavery, for justice's sake and the black vote:
Fixed that for you.
I will win the lottery next week.
https://www.breitbart.com/border/2020/06/14/texas-prepares-for-rioters-dont-mess-with-the-alamo/
Rumors of rioters trying to destroy the Alamo (~20-30 min away from where I live). Hopefully this is just a big nothing. If stuff like this gets out of hand, though, that won't be good since they will just be asking for a pushback. You don't just destroy all of the cultural monuments in a country and get away with it.
A Breitbart piece about "rumors"; can't get much farther from hard news than that.
Quote from: JBS on June 13, 2020, 12:17:37 PM
And the intelligence agencies shared their conclusions with you?
And how do you know that "we know enough"? You are just assuming things are true because you want them to be true.
There's no need to personally inform GMGers that inaccuracies in Chinese numbers are not a matter of orders of magnitude. The extraordinary hypothesis is the one that requires extraordinary evidence, and that is everyone in China with a smartphone and a VPN is suddenly "in on it" for something we really know nothing about, because it's not there.
Quote from: Dowder on June 15, 2020, 04:47:33 PM
If you want to see how confused the younger generation is about communism check out this tweet:
https://twitter.com/titaniamcgrath/status/1272478090061664257?s=21 (https://twitter.com/titaniamcgrath/status/1272478090061664257?s=21)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titania_McGrath
"Titania McGrath (@TitaniaMcGrath) is a parody Twitter account created and run by comedian and Spiked columnist Andrew Doyle. Doyle describes her as "a militant vegan who thinks she is a better poet than William Shakespeare".
If I have to add further comment, rather than just post that as a corrective, then I'll ask: how did that appear in your twitter feed? From whom? Did the source also accept it as a serious illustration of the beliefs of the young and/or left? Will you now reconsider the reliability of that source, or perhaps even go back and question other "information" they've passed on?
Abraham Lincoln Statue In Boston 'Has To Go,' Petition Demands (https://patch.com/massachusetts/boston/abraham-lincoln-statue-boston-has-go-petition-demands)
OK, then.
Quote from: Dowder on June 15, 2020, 06:13:45 PM
I know that is parody account, mocking the ignorance of the tweet of someone who is real, ie Ben Norton—who would rather have a Stalin statue than one of Churchill. If you had taken the time to research further, you would have understood this.
No, that's not how your post read at all. And I have no idea who this Ben Norton is or what he's arguing or why its important to you or why I should "research" this, and neither of your two posts have thrown any light on that.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2020, 05:45:58 PM
Abraham Lincoln Statue In Boston 'Has To Go,' Petition Demands (https://patch.com/massachusetts/boston/abraham-lincoln-statue-boston-has-go-petition-demands)
OK, then.
I'll wager that imagery has been considered highly problematic long before now.
Quote from: Dowder on June 15, 2020, 04:47:33 PMHistory repeats itself, leftists had to eat crow and realize Stalin, Trotsky, Mao and the other host of commie leaders were pretty much butchers with disregard for human life; it'll be the same for this generation, too.
These days I think most of us think the purges by Stalin and Mao didn't go far enough. If Khrushchev had been sent to Lubyanka or Deng Xiaoping had met the appropriate fate in the Cultural Revolution, etc, maybe we'd have a different (and better) world, one in which the permanent destruction of the United States of America would be within reach. (Though I personally doubt it.)
This is not to say we
idealise Stalin or Mao or the gulags or the armed struggle etc, but anyone who genuinely thinks Stalin or Mao were "butchers with no regard for human life" is not a socialist/leftist of any kind, but rather some variety of liberal or conservative or whatever.
(Ben Norton is viewed by many people on the left as an opportunist who simply adopts socialist rhetoric to appeal to a certain demographic, probably mostly because he spent the first few years of the Syrian War propagandising against the Assad government before abruptly switching sides upon realising that most socialists were not buying the whole YPG/Free Syrian Army/Rojava/Syrian Revolution narrative. But that's more of a topic for a "Syria Politics" thread. And he's not wrong in this particular case although it would probably be even more appropriate to have a statue of Zhukov.)
Quote from: Dowder on June 15, 2020, 06:32:10 PMA Jefferson statue came down in Oregon yesterday, too.
Yeah, that made it on the local news last night. That was uninspired hooliganism - it's very small statue on a short pedestal at a high school. Of all serial rapist presidents, Tommy J is my fave. The Boston mayor supports futzing with the Lincoln statue, which ups the stupid ante.
Quote from: amw on June 15, 2020, 06:33:35 PMone in which the permanent destruction of the United States of America would be within reach. (Though I personally doubt it.)
It is good to have goals.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2020, 06:44:36 PM
It is good to have goals.
There seem to be two different schools of thought on the modern left about how to achieve this: either People's War (i.e. spray-painting "Fuck 12" on the wall of a Wendy's, etc) or leaving the country and hoping it collapses on its own (what I did). One kinda misses the Black Panthers these days.
Quote from: amw on June 15, 2020, 06:52:35 PM
There seem to be two different schools of thought on the modern left about how to achieve this: either People's War (i.e. spray-painting "Fuck 12" on the wall of a Wendy's, etc) or leaving the country and hoping it collapses on its own (what I did). One kinda misses the Black Panthers these days.
I question the efficacy of either approach, at least if the desired timeframe is one or two human lifetimes. Since the US cannot be militarily defeated (meaning conquered) by any combination of powers, that basically leaves violent, organized revolution as the only way. Well, that, or a constitutional convention like the one advocated by various sorts on the left and right. I guess the world will just sort of limp along for a few more decades until China achieves unipolar status and dictates financial and political terms on the world.
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 15, 2020, 06:30:47 PM
I'll wager that imagery has been considered highly problematic long before now.
What!? Those crazy SJWs have finally gone too far this time. Imagine objecting to a statue of good ol' Abe Lincoln! <clicks thru> Oh.
I wonder who put that up originally.
EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_Memorial
"According to the National Park Service, the monument was paid for solely by former slaves:
The campaign for the Freedmen's Memorial Monument to Abraham Lincoln, as it was to be known, was not the only effort of the time to build a monument to Lincoln; however, as the only one soliciting contributions exclusively from those who had most directly benefited from Lincoln's act of emancipation it had a special appeal ... The funds were collected solely from freed slaves (primarily from African American Union veterans) ...
The turbulent politics of the reconstruction era affected the fundraising campaign on many levels. The Colored People's Educational Monument Association headed by Henry Highland Garnet wanted the monument to serve a didactic purpose as a school where freedmen could elevate themselves through learning. Frederick Douglass disagreed and thought the goal of education was incommensurate with that of remembering Lincoln."
The "incommensurate" comment is a bit opaque to me.
EDIT: a bit later in the article we have
Douglass said the statue "showed the Negro on his knees when a more manly attitude would have been indicative of freedom."
Quote from: Dowder on June 15, 2020, 07:35:37 PMWe have time to stop the Chinese 100 year marathon.
You misinterpreted what I wrote. China will not assume the same type of global reach and power that the US has enjoyed since the collapse of the USSR. The US is an historical anomaly, and the post-war order it maintains is dependent on its anomalous status. The world is moving back toward a true multi-polar international order, one where the US has near-peer rivals. As such, clinging to the now outdated post-war order is fundamentally mistaken and strategically foolish. We need to embrace demographic, economic, and political reality and adjust behavior. No more foolish wars with no real strategic merit. No more defending strategically irrelevant nation states (eg, the Baltics), far less reliance on limiting alliances that don't address current strategic challenges (eg, NATO), that sort of thing.
Of course liberals have their share of nut jobs. The actions of these individuals do not invalidate the Black Life Matters Movement.
From the Amazon Post:
Armed 'militia' members arrested, gunman identified after man is shot at Albuquerque protest (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/)
Quote from: Katie Shepherd and Katie MettlerThe gunshots, which left one man in critical but stable condition, have set off a cascade of public outcry denouncing the unregulated 'militia''s presence and the shooting.
It always makes sense to pay close attention to the specific and deliberate language used by 'journalists'. (I am not at all surprised that Ms Shepherd worked at Willamette Week.)
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2020, 06:59:33 PM
Since the US cannot be militarily defeated (meaning conquered) by any combination of powers, that basically leaves violent, organized revolution as the only way. Well, that, or a constitutional convention like the one advocated by various sorts on the left and right.
In his 1969 Playboy interview, Marshall McLuhan predicted the breakup of the USA into a set of regional and ethnic states (the relevant part starts a little more than halfway down):
https://nextnature.net/2009/12/the-playboy-interview-marshall-mcluhan
Worth reading, if you're the sort of person who "only reads Playboy for the articles."
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 16, 2020, 08:32:05 AM
In his 1969 Playboy interview, Marshall McLuhan predicted the breakup of the USA into a set of regional and ethnic states (the relevant part starts a little more than halfway down):
https://nextnature.net/2009/12/the-playboy-interview-marshall-mcluhan
Worth reading, if you're the sort of person who "only reads Playboy for the articles."
The timing of the interview is useful to note. It was a fairly chaotic time in US history. One can draw parallels to today, of course. Balkanization - a somewhat lazy intellectual construction - and the inevitable disintegration of the USA has had its adherents at various times. When I was in college, I had to read
Ecotopia, from the 70s (I think) which was premised on a similar construct. (I live in the author's ecotopia!) While there is no reason to believe that the US will exist forever, it seems unlikely that disintegration will occur any time soon. The federal government possesses overwhelming practical power, military and otherwise, that can enforce political unity, and both the Constitution and subsequent case law give the federal government basically unlimited legal authority to ensure unity. Only if large enough political groupings demand secession, with widespread political support across the country, could it come to fruition. Given the historically peripatetic nature of the US population, that seems unlikely, though internal migration has been slowing over the last couple decades, so it is not inconceivable that at some point in the distant-ish future regional differences could become severe enough, and political cohesion in the country strained enough, that such an outcome could occur. I think there is a higher probability of an ill-informed and ill-advised Constitutional Convention dissolving the existing national system and replacing it with something different.
(The reference to Linus Pauling's works in the interview seems a bit out of place.)
How nice to hear this message from a non-"libtard"
And that has caused so many of my fellow conservatives to abandon the requirement of the humbling and life-enriching commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves.
https://www.youtube.com/v/HXFlyjNQbvY
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2020, 09:31:21 AM
How nice to hear this message from a non-"libtard"
And that has caused so many of my fellow conservatives to abandon the requirement of the humbling and life-enriching commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves.
https://www.youtube.com/v/HXFlyjNQbvY
As a one-time, long-time conservative, I totally agree with this guy. I was never (ever) a religious believer, but there was a time (before Reagan?) when one didn't need to be one in order to be a political conservative. Didn't need to be any of those repellent things that are taken for granted today either. :-\
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
As a one-time, long-time conservative, I totally agree with this guy. I was never (ever) a religious believer, but there was a time (before Reagan?) when one didn't need to be one in order to be a political conservative. Didn't need to be any of those repellent things that are taken for granted today either. :-\
8)
Indeed.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2020, 09:31:21 AM
How nice to hear this message from a non-"libtard"
And that has caused so many of my fellow conservatives to abandon the requirement of the humbling and life-enriching commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves.
https://www.youtube.com/v/HXFlyjNQbvY
It's a very biased sample, but I've noticed that amongst my American friends, those who consider themselves to be conservatives are if anything
more outraged by Trump than those who consider themselves to be liberals.
Here is the good news if Biden wins. The conservatives will still have someone in the White House that they can dislike.
CNN has an excellent breakdown of the results of the 2016 election by state and county: https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results
It appears that the real divide is between urban and rural America.
With the exceptions of Alaska, Oklahoma and Wyoming, in every other state, Clinton won the vast majority of the urban areas.
In only seven of the most populated cities in America did Trump win the majority.
Jacksonville, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
Arlington, Texas
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Mesa, Arizona
Phoenix, Arizona
Note: Both Phoenix and Mesa are in the same county in Arizona, Maricopa.
Quote from: edward on June 16, 2020, 10:30:23 AM
It's a very biased sample, but I've noticed that amongst my American friends, those who consider themselves to be conservatives are if anything more outraged by Trump than those who consider themselves to be liberals.
Of course. The post-Newt Gingrich "Republicans" hijacked the party and carried it to the extreme fringes. Those who weren't extreme got the boot. Not like the Dems aren't doing the same thing, if they weren't really trying to win the WH back, Biden wouldn't be the candidate, it would be someone much further to the Left. And once again the middle-of-the-roader's, who are combined as the majority of Americans, are or would be without representation.
It is damned difficult not to be outraged when your f****d up political system grants you little or no representation unless you are a wingnut. >:(
8)
That, unfortunately, is not a trend exclusive to the USA.... >:(
Quote from: ritter on June 16, 2020, 01:09:43 PM
That, unfortunately, is not a trend exclusive to the USA.... >:(
So I'm told. I considered relocation for a while, but everyone I talked to said "you don't want to come here, we are as much or more f****d up as you are!". And further paying attention showed that to be true. Sad...
8)
In spite of the problems I still love this country.
I have never hated Republican Presidents in the past. I used to be a Rebublican. There are many Republicans that I have a great deal of respect for. I did not vote for McCain or Romney because of political differences. I still had great respect for them. The first Republican President or his followers that I have ever had any animus toward is Trump.
I do have problems with anyone who does not believe in evolution and thinks the world is only 10,000 years old. The Secretary of HUD is one of them. Maybe even Pence.
Of course the left has its share of nut jobs, but most Democrats I have met are pretty reasonable people. When I was a younger, reminder that I was a conservative Republican until I was in my early fifties, I thought that most Democrats were unAmerican, unpatriotic, unwhatever, etc. I ended up getting to know many Democrats and found that most of the conservative perceptions of them were bogus.
To be a Trumpkin is to have a great (yuuuuge, even) appetite for bullhittery and opacity:
"Forget vaccines and treatments. The very stable genius has a foolproof cure for the pandemic.
"If we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases, if any," President Trump said at the White House Monday.
Precisely! And if I stop weighing myself right now, I will gain very few pounds, if any. What we don't know cannot possibly hurt us. This is very much a part of Trump's governing philosophy."
From AmPo: Elizabeth Warren said fundraisers would tear 'this democracy apart.' On Monday, she raised $6 million for Joe Biden. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/elizabeth-warren-said-fundraisers-would-tear-this-democracy-apart-on-monday-she-raised-6-million-for-joe-biden/2020/06/16/665fa19c-afe7-11ea-856d-5054296735e5_story.html)
I guess the mere chance of being Veep is sufficient reason to tear this democracy apart.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 06:55:39 AM
Conservatives are usually vilified as being too extreme, too traditional, old fashioned, etc, from Robert Taft, Goldwater, Reagan down to present times.
Liberals are usually vilified as being too extreme, from FDR to Kennedy, Clinton, Obama... In some cases it's even true. No matter which side of the political fence I'm on, I consider totally dismantling the government, with the exception of the military of course, as being too extreme.
8)
Quote from: Dowder on June 15, 2020, 04:47:33 PM
There were medical professionals in the beginning warning about the cover-up, like the young doctor who eventually perished from Covid-19. True to form, the authoritarians in power did everything they could to control the narrative.
It hasn't worked. We knew about the doctor almost immediately. In fact, the story about how the local government suppressed evidence about the outbreak from Beijing is is something people who know about stuff have been following in the news since quite early in the outbreak. I don't know about "we don't know about it" people, perhaps it's different for them.
Quote from: Dowder on June 13, 2020, 03:59:36 PM
Potential second wave centered in Beijing:
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/13/876544822/beijing-in-wartime-emergency-mode-amid-fresh-cluster-of-coronavirus-cases (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/13/876544822/beijing-in-wartime-emergency-mode-amid-fresh-cluster-of-coronavirus-cases)
Did you get this from an official Chinese lie or from a source you don't know about? I only want to know how this works.
The US has 2M+ cases and 100T+ deaths, an excellent reason to be perturbed by the far lower case/death numbers in China, and to treat belated Chinese success as false in a "we don't know about it" way. Then bad news about an outbreak in Beijing arrives from DontknowaboutitLand. OK, we can believe this bad news and drop the bullshit, just for now. We can go back to it later.
How about this? Stop with the excuses. Outbreaks are not secret, and government secrets about them have a short shelf life. There's too much info from too many sources.
Quote20 years from now (perhaps sooner) a future Chinese government will acknowledge the extent of the virus and it will join previous horrors, along those I mentioned in a previous post. In the meantime, some misguided western leftists will do what they have always done: defend the indefensible until the evidence is so overwhelming that they finally have to acknowledge that they were wrong.
It doesn't matter what China acknowledges now or ever. There's no point in being nostalgic for the day when Stalin could fool gullible people in the West. Stalinists may be the same, the world is not.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 06:39:31 AM
From a few years ago, this article shows that both parties have their issues with science.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/02/25/most-democrats-dont-know-it-takes-a-year-for-the-earth-to-go-around-the-sun/%3foutputType=amp (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/02/25/most-democrats-dont-know-it-takes-a-year-for-the-earth-to-go-around-the-sun/%3foutputType=amp)
I can't read the article (paywall), but, reading the headline, one could wonder how the country that can pride itself on having many of the best universities in the world, seems to have the worst primary schools too... ::) ;D
Johns Hopkins probably knows more about the extent of the Chinese outbreak than Beijing authorities do. It wouldn't surprise me if ChiComs checked their own numbers against what Johns Hopkins publishes to see if their own info is correct, or what lies they can get away with. I judge there's space to undercount cases not far from what's done in other countries. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Fired Florida Data Scientist Launches A Coronavirus Dashboard Of Her Own (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/14/876584284/fired-florida-data-scientist-launches-a-coronavirus-dashboard-of-her-own)
Floridian Trumpists are not undercounting so much as trying to hide a disturbing fact, that almost the entire state has ignored state guidelines for reopening.
In some ways, Jones' new portal for Florida coronavirus data looks a lot like the state health department's. But it has a few key differences that reflect just how contentious coronavirus data has become amid politicized arguments about whether it's safe for states to reopen.
Case in point: Jones' dashboard has a map that shows which Florida counties are ready for the next phase of reopening. By her calculations, only two of the state's 67 counties at the moment meet the state's criteria for further easing restrictions.
"When I went to show them what the report card would say for each county, among other things, they asked me to delete the report card because it showed that no counties, pretty much, were ready for reopening," she says. "And they didn't want to draw attention to that."
Jones says a superior asked her to open up the data and alter the numbers so that the state's coronavirus positivity rating would change from 18% to 10% — and the state would appear to meet its target to reopen.
She says she refused to do that manipulation and others she was asked to, and she was fired on May 18.
Of course, Florida too can be part of the "we don't know about it" world. It's behind an Orange Curtain.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 07:17:38 AMAfter Trump got elected California threatened Calexit.
How far did that get?
Reconquista has been a bugaboo of right wing nutjobs for decades. I'm more concerned about leprechauns.
Quote from: ritter on June 17, 2020, 08:30:21 AM
I can't read the article (paywall), but, reading the headline, one could wonder how the country that can pride itself on having many of the best universities in the world, seems to have the worst primary schools too... ::) ;D
From the article:
What this NSF experiment suggests to me (though other interpretations are possible) is that some standard scientific knowledge questions do not actually measure what one knows, but rather what one chooses to endorse. This is the best part of the article. People know things, but "believe in" opposite things, a point I raise now and then. Also, there's ignorance of the "we don't know about it" variety and an unfortunate prevalence of the genuine kind. There are many poorly educated people out there.
A White House official said John Bolton's book contained no classified info. Then Trump loyalists intervened. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/17/trump-official-said-john-boltons-book-contained-no-classified-info-then-trump-loyalists-intervened/)
What happened is Bolton submitted his manuscript as required, and the reviewer stated there was no classified info in it. Then a Trumpist lackey intervened to say that the manuscript does have classified info in it. Instead of the obvious solution of telling Bolton what must be removed, the process was put on ice to prevent publication of the book no matter what. Now the WH is suing, which is strange because any judge will see the obvious.
There's no way to comply with a demand that unidentified material be removed. The process has been been sabotaged for a corrupt purpose. Trump gave the game away:
At one point, he told national TV anchors in an off-the-record meeting, "We're going to try and block the publication of the book. After I leave office, he can do this. But not in the White House," according to notes from the meeting.
Can Bolton violate national security by revealing classified information after Trump leaves office? It's a fact that he can't, and nothing suggests he'd try. He's too smart for that.
If I bought the book it would not be to learn official secrets. I don't think anyone would buy the book thinking classified information would be in it. The book is an exposé, like others but from the perspective of a very high ranking insider with lots of wonderful non-secret knowledge of important events and the people who shaped them. It may be more damaging than previous tell-alls, but in all sincerity damage may be a shaky concept for a target that has been thoroughly obliterated several times over. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
The excerpt published in today's WSJ includes a mention of something the review process censored from the original version
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EavMC_MWoAIOgdD?format=jpg&name=small)
This is the same passage in which Trump gave his blessing to Xi's concentration camps.
Former Atlanta officer who shot Rayshard Brooks charged with murder, other offenses
We need trustworthy police, we need police accountability.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 13, 2020, 12:00:31 AM
Received the following from one of my music conductors. Might loosen things up.
Senior Mandates
#1 - Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice
#2 - "In Style" are the clothes that still fit
#3 - You don't need anger management. You need people to stop making you mad.
#4 - Your people skills are just fine. It's your tolerance for idiots that needs work.
#5 - The biggest lie you tell yourself is, "I don't need to write that down. I'll remember it."
#6 - "On time" is when you get there.
#7 - Even duct tape can't fix stupid - but it sure does muffle the sound.
#8 - It would be wonderful if we could put ourselves in the dryer for ten minutes, then come out wrinkle-free and three sizes smaller?
#9 - Lately, You've noticed people your age are so much older than you.
#10 - Growing old should have taken longer.
#11 - Aging has slowed you down, but it hasn't shut you up.
#12 - You still haven't learned to act your age, and hope you never will.
And one more:
"One for the road" means peeing before you leave the house.
Arpeggio,
Thank you so much for the laugh--which is REALLY needed these days. ;) :)
That didn't take long 8)
https://www.youtube.com/v/wuAHz4i3_x8
This former Trump voter ain't buying the "fine people on both sides" rubbish
https://www.youtube.com/v/c27unRm_iHU
America or Trump
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 06:39:31 AM
From a few years ago, this article shows that both parties have their issues with science.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/02/25/most-democrats-dont-know-it-takes-a-year-for-the-earth-to-go-around-the-sun/%3foutputType=amp (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/02/25/most-democrats-dont-know-it-takes-a-year-for-the-earth-to-go-around-the-sun/%3foutputType=amp)
Really, you think I am so ill informed that I am unaware of those situations were there are some liberals who are nut jobs? I am tired of being accused of being something I am not.
Let me guess. Because there are some liberals who think the world is flat I can not have problems with those, and this includes some Democrats, who think the world is only ten thousand years old.
I will tell you something negative about me that is truthful and you can have a field day with it.
I consider myself an agnostic socialist. And as a socialist I can tell you that most Democrats are not socialists.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 03:28:03 PM
Lol, if we shared a border with Ireland, had an astronomical amount of immigration from it and had the history of a controversial war over land you might have legitimate reason for concern. Calexit is still a troubling precedent, one that could lead in 15 or 20 years time in an attempt not by one state but by several with hispanic majorities that no longer feel a cultural, social or political attachment to other parts of America, especially so if our government continues to act dysfunctionally, our institutions continue to weaken and/or a major economic colapse occurs.
Having one of the two major political parties ground a major portion of its agenda on the idea that immigrants are bad and we need to curb immigration as much as possible certainly does not help.
But you are forgetting that Hispanic is a term that includes a lot of people who are not Mexican and for whom Reconquista on behalf of Mexico has no special charm.
I'm guessing "Reconquestia" and "Calexit" are Brietbart scare words, considering I haven't read them anywhere else.
<google search>
Confirmed.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 04:09:44 PM
Not so much about legal immigrants being bad but illegal aliens and the undocumented causing the mischief.
True, but most Hispanic people in America are of Mexican descent. I think if we adopted a sensible immigration policy most if not all would assimilate, see English as their rightful language, fully embrace American culture while issues over identity would gradually go away, (in other words join the melting pot).
The GOP agenda is the very opposite of a sensible immigration policy. Trump embraces an extreme version of it which no one in the GOP seems to mind. If they really liked legal immigrants, they would make it easier to get in here.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 03:59:21 PM
... as I am by the atheists and left wingers who use those issues to push for an aggressive agenda.
You are half right about me here. Even I do not think socialisms is the universal answer to all of the world's problems. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 04:19:06 PM
The link earlier was to Wikipedia so saying I linked to Breibart is untrue. In fact, while here I don't know if I've ever linked to Breitbart.
I really don't care what a guy from New Zealand feels about my political beliefs and I don't know why you come here to be offended and report everything you don't like to the moderators, either.
I haven't reported anything to the moderators.
You've quoted and linked to Brietbart on a number of occasions, and on others the "opinion" could easily be traced back to them.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 17, 2020, 03:40:45 PM
Really, you think I am so ill informed that I am unaware of those situations were there are some liberals who are nut jobs? I am tired of being accused of being something I am not.
Let me guess. Because there are some liberals who think the world is flat I can not have problems with those, and this includes some Democrats, who think the world is only ten thousand years old.
I will tell you something negative about me that is truthful and you can have a field day with it.
I consider myself an agnostic socialist. And as a socialist I can tell you that most Democrats are not socialists.
Looks like projection on his part, he's snowing you on this point, because he's a Trumpkin with no qualms about any of the far-right wingnuts.
Typical Trumpian dodge.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 03:28:03 PMLol, if we shared a border with Ireland
You misunderstood. I am truly more concerned about actual leprechauns than I am about Reconquista. The latter is just silly.
As to Calexit being a troubling precedent, ask South Carolinians how well secession pans out. Or ask supporters of the formation of the state of Jefferson how easy it is to create a new state, just 'cause.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 03:28:03 PM
Lol, if we shared a border with Ireland, had an astronomical amount of immigration from it and had the history of a controversial war over land you might have legitimate reason for concern. Calexit is still a troubling precedent, one that could lead in 15 or 20 years time in an attempt not by one state but by several with hispanic majorities that no longer feel a cultural, social or political attachment to other parts of America, especially so if our government continues to act dysfunctionally, our institutions continue to weaken and/or a major economic colapse occurs.
What I find amusing as a Texas resident is that the on-again off-again push for secession is driven here by right-wing anti-government militia types. We have been much further down this road already than California has (I looked into it seriously when I lived there).
Texas Secession Movement on Wiki (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Texas_secession_movements)
I think that for California to leave would be a bigger blow for the country, but the point is that there are different reasons for wanting to break up the country, and while Texas has a huge Mexican population, they haven't yet taken part in any of this. I know it would be nice to blame the Mexicans, it fits so nicely with 'Build the Wall' rhetoric...
8)
We have as much reconquest as we need, the kind that works best. The conquerors become us. As a Texican by birth and inclination I know all about it.
The NYTimes has failingly panned Boltons book. Apparently the author is an aesthetic klutz, and offers nothing much in the way of excuses for refusing to testify in the impeachment hearing.
"Had I testified," Bolton intones, "I am convinced, given the environment then existing because of the House's impeachment malpractice, that it would have made no significant difference in the Senate outcome." It's a self-righteous and self-serving sort of fatalism that sounds remarkably similar to the explanation he gave years ago for preemptively signing up for the National Guard in 1970 and thereby avoiding service in Vietnam. "Dying for your country was one thing," he wrote in his 2007 book "Surrender Is Not an Option, "but dying to gain territory that antiwar forces in Congress would simply return to the enemy seemed ludicrous to me."
When it comes to Bolton's comments on impeachment, the clotted prose, the garbled argument and the sanctimonious defensiveness would seem to indicate some sort of ambivalence on his part — a feeling that he doesn't seem to have very often. Or maybe it merely reflects an uncomfortable realization that he's stuck between two incompatible impulses: the desire to appear as courageous as those civil servants who bravely risked their careers to testify before the House; and the desire to appease his fellow Republicans, on whom his own fastidiously managed career most certainly depends. It's a strange experience reading a book that begins with repeated salvos about "the intellectually lazy" by an author who refuses to think through anything very hard himself.
At the library tonight I discovered that James Shapiro has a new Shakespeare book. Had it been anyone else i might have not given it a second look. But here's a Guardian reviewsuggesting I was right in grabbing it and taking it home:
Shakespeare in a Divided America by James Shapiro review – how the bard found his greatest stage
A timely, clever analysis of why Shakespeare continues to cast a spell over American politics (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/mar/16/shakespeare-in-a-divided-america-james-shapiro-review)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/818I0CNNlTL.jpg)
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 08:25:25 PM
Yeah, the Nullification Crisis in SC paved the way for the Civil War. There was a long chain of historical circumstances but it was a precedent, as was Calexit, which might turn bloody at some point if the issues surrounding it aren't resolved properly.
The point in selecting South Carolina was that it was first to secede. The Nullification Crisis and Calexit are not analogs. Calexit is as silly as Reconquista.
'I think Putin thinks he can play [Trump] like a fiddle': Former national security adviser John Bolton in exclusive interview (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/putin-thinks-play-trump-fiddle-national-security-adviser/story?id=71307801)
Pornstache is finally getting some love from the MSM. Some lefties will no doubt extol his virtues now. The enemy of my enemy, and all that.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 06:35:59 AM
It seems silly or far fetched now as does most secessionist talk, yeah. Only mentioned it in reference to the post about America breaking up at some point into various sections because of divisions and irreconcilable squabbles so if that were to happen, it would probably be less of a Calexit and more a Mexexit of several southwestern states, whose Latino population has exploded in the last 50 years or so.
Regionalism and secession will not cause the demise of the US. Reconquista and Calexit are silly, even if regionalism and secession were more probable. Reconquista is the sillier of the two concepts given the obvious racism underpinning it. Mexexit is an even goofier construction.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 06:42:00 AM
Biden's tax proposals are considered quite progressive, as it will affect the top 1% the most (their payments will be 65% of individual revenue streams) according to this study, with corporate rates increasing and several trillion added to the budget over the next 20 years or so.
https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/an-analysis-of-joe-bidens-tax-proposals/ (https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/an-analysis-of-joe-bidens-tax-proposals/)
I understand some 1 percenters pay taxes. We should probably not worry much about it.
My concern is the real tax on spending, not a quasi-fictional tax on saving. That's tax theater. Liberals and conservatives alike are theatrical about the tax return.
To the extent taxation really does something it would be good to decide what that is. What's it for? It's for a few things, but the first is to extinguish excess money. Government spending adds fast money and taxation makes room for it by taxing back slower dollars. Progressive taxation does that, but the same thing can be done on the spend side with flatter taxation, the so-called Nordic model.
The point is to get a good result by normative measure, not to satisfy a group you like. Though I may not particularly like a group, I still think it's good for them to spend up to their ability and desires.
Having goals in mind for spend/tax decisions is better than having a spend or tax target. Budgeteers think a budget is a good thing to fix, everything else is in last place. Think "entitlement reform", if you call that thinking.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 07:04:51 AMIsn't that what Lincoln said famously though?
That was ~160 years ago. That had to do with the unresolved issues of slavery. Grant took care of that. Also, there was still a possibility of the army splitting in two. Today, not so much. One must adjust historical analogies to contemporary facts.
Concern about Reconquista is entirely racist. It is a very scary idea uttered by white folks who wring their hands about Hispanics.
Antifa, BLM, Occupy, and the host of right wing rabble protesting with varying levels of violence are just continuing a proud American tradition. We haven't even seen 1960s levels of violence this year, let alone 1930s or 1910s levels of protests mixed with targeted terrorism. Maybe we still will. Protests are already starting to peter out in Little Beirut, so I don't hold out hopes for any fireworks locally.
Quote from: Dowder on June 17, 2020, 09:11:51 PM
Is the book as juicy as Omarosa's?
There will be overlap on the juice. Bolton knows more about policy decisions and writes about what he experienced, and if you can handle long stretches of tedium and ridiculous justification of his refusal to testify, you'll get an undoubtedly accurate picture of Trump turning the US into a Stan. That's what the reviewer said and others who've read the book say that, too.
Since Trumpists and many on the left will hate the book, the target audience is people who want to know more details about Trump's love of dictators and his desire to emulate and please them, and get election help from them in return. Bolton complains that the impeachment investigation was not thorough enough to satisfy him, a pathetic excuse for his noncooperation but otherwise a reasonable criticism.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 08:08:55 AMCalling people names for expressing fear or legitimate worries won't help.
I am simply pointing out that concern about Reconquista, like concern about the "browning of America", is racist.
Also, the disintegration of the US along amorphous ethnic lines is not a legitimate concern.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 08:14:06 AM
The Walrus was an odd choice for Trump. Bolton defended the president at the Oxford Union last year (you can find it on YouTube) but apparently getting fired for wanting wars in North Korea, Venezuela and Iran will make you bitter, want to write a book and crave acceptance by the liberal MSM.
As the excerpt I quoted points out, Bolton can't reconcile his conflicting wants. I think acceptance from liberals is less important than dollars from lots of paying customers, some of whom will be liberal. Bolton can get wretched reviews from the MSM and get by just fine, because people are going to buy the book for the good parts.
Since it's certain that Bolton is trying to stay on the good side of warmongerish Repubs, why would you think he craves anything from liberals other than dollars and fanatical opposition?
Doesn't look like "acceptance by the liberal MSM," to this reader: "[Bolton, who chose to continue working for Trump] remained silent, making him a mercenary who put a book deal above his country. That also makes him nearly as despicable as the man who he says betrayed his country, for without Bolton's silence, Trump might have been caught red-handed in selling out the United States' interests to retain power. This suggests that decent Americans should not reward Bolton by buying his book."
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 09:04:02 AM
I don't think he craves anything else. He's cashing in like the rest of them do and parroting the anti-Trump stuff like the others. The Walrus is getting up there in age so I doubt we'll see him in another Republican administration.
He has no need to parrot. He was there, and obviously loathes Trump for sound reasons. What you're missing is that for Republicrats of many different kinds Trump hatred follows from what he does and says. Many people that were willing to give Trump a chance to learn on the job, take policy seriously, and dial down the corruption a little to save appearances have come to the conclusion that he can't do any of that. No one need parrot. No parrot! His horribleness is in plain sight. If there is an ideological perspective from which you can't see what in front of your face, get a better one. Or look for a more complete version of Trumpism. QAnon is the go to for that, or so I hear. Another option is whatever OANN is using. Let me know how that works if you try either of those.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2020, 09:13:08 AM
Doesn't look like "acceptance by the liberal MSM," to this reader: "[Bolton, who chose to continue working for Trump] remained silent, making him a mercenary who put a book deal above his country. That also makes him nearly as despicable as the man who he says betrayed his country, for without Bolton's silence, Trump might have been caught red-handed in selling out the United States' interests to retain power. This suggests that decent Americans should not reward Bolton by buying his book."
Bolton has the goods on Trump big time, so he must be attacked as appealing to liberals. It's kind of cart before horse "reasoning". The proof that Bolton seeks liberal approval is that he hates Trump. Brilliant, but not plausible. Bolton is not at all shy about portraying himself as the kind of neocon ultra that liberals despise.
Bolton is a foreign policy hawk who thinks we need an imperial presidency. He is trying to damage Trump but keep the office strong for later Presidents.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 17, 2020, 03:40:45 PM
Really, you think I am so ill informed that I am unaware of those situations were there are some liberals who are nut jobs? I am tired of being accused of being something I am not.
Let me guess. Because there are some liberals who think the world is flat I can not have problems with those, and this includes some Democrats, who think the world is only ten thousand years old.
I will tell you something negative about me that is truthful and you can have a field day with it.
I consider myself an agnostic socialist. And as a socialist I can tell you that most Democrats are not socialists.
Arpeggio,
I appreciate your comments and hearing your viewpoint; politics, life views, experiences, etc. all matters. And we all go through journeys and changes due to what we have seen, experienced, and exposures to news, ideas, literature, etc. over the course of ones life (hopefully anyway!). I imagine that I'm not alone here in appreciating your comments and sharing?
Best wishes,
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2020, 02:32:42 PM
Arpeggio,
I appreciate your comments and hearing your viewpoint; politics, life views, experiences, etc. all matters. And we all go through journeys and changes due to what we have seen, experienced, and exposures to news, ideas, literature, etc. over the course of ones life (hopefully anyway!). I imagine that I'm not alone here in appreciating your comments and sharing?
Best wishes,
PD
By no means alone.
I'm going through the wonderful journey of life and changes and have arrived at a beautiful place where I can truly say I hate all of you. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: drogulus on June 18, 2020, 03:01:01 PM
I'm going through the wonderful journey of life and changes and have arrived at a beautiful place where I can truly say I hate all of you. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Too kind, sir, too kind... ::)
8)
The wonder of it all . . . .
Quote from: drogulus on June 18, 2020, 03:01:01 PM
I'm going through the wonderful journey of life and changes and have arrived at a beautiful place where I can truly say I hate all of you. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Hey, if that is truly how you feel (re politics at least), then that's o.k., but why then bother to contribute? I try hard to think about other's contributions, news, etc., and realize that everyone's journey in life has been different. We're all learning here.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2020, 03:14:32 PM
Too kind, sir, too kind... ::)
Gurn, Sorry, but what are you having issues with here? One can learn from one another....discuss things politely and think and learn?
Quote from: drogulus on June 18, 2020, 03:01:01 PM
I'm going through the wonderful journey of life and changes and have arrived at a beautiful place where I can truly say I hate all of you. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Love you, too, Droggy.
QuoteQuote from: Gurn Blanston on Today at 06:14:32 PM
Too kind, sir, too kind... ::)
QuoteGurn, Sorry, but what are you having issues with here? One can learn from one another....discuss things politely and think and learn?
Dear lady,
No, I have no problems whatsoever, you took me too literally, perhaps? I have known Drogulus for many years, we are even friends, after a fashion, so I was being a bit sarcastic with him. I've found that he is usually deserving of it, although in my case it is always friendly.
I agree with your sentiment completely, though. It is very true that people can discuss things politely, think and learn. More people should take advantage of that opportunity. :)
Cheers,
Gurn 8)
"Republicans in the Trump era have become morally and politically alienated from their fellow Americans.
The latest Quinnipiac poll illustrates the phenomenon: "Voters say 68 – 27 percent that discrimination against black people in the United States is a serious problem. ... 96 percent of Democrats and 69 percent of independents say discrimination against black people is a serious problem, while only 34 percent of Republicans say that." Really, only a third of Republicans see the ongoing murder of African Americans by police and the disproportionate hospitalizations and deaths among African Americans and think there is no serious problem? (Likewise, 83 percent of Republicans look at police across the country and think, My, what a good job they are doing!)
Self-identified Republicans seem to have adopted Trump's example of denial and lack of empathy. (It also underscores how white the Republican Party has become, with many still believing they are the true victims in America.)"
It will undoubtedly cost lives. Just don't ask Trump if he cares:
Meanwhile, 500 Oklahoma medical professionals wrote an online letter to Tulsa's mayor. "Allowing our city to be one of the first places in the world to host an indoor gathering of this magnitude is not a political matter, it is a public health matter," they said. "As our city and state COVID-19 numbers climb at a rate previously unseen, it is unthinkable that this is seen as a logical choice. It has the potential to shake our cities infrastructure and stress our healthcare systems. It will undoubtedly cost lives."
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2020, 03:29:49 PM
Hey, if that is truly how you feel (re politics at least), then that's o.k., but why then bother to contribute? I try hard to think about other's contributions, news, etc., and realize that everyone's journey in life has been different. We're all learning here.
Oh, well. I thought it was good.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 05:39:26 PM
This article describes the hypocrisy of the Left, who lectured honest, law abiding Americans about the necessity of government mandated shutdowns, social distancing and the critical use of masks but who ignored, among other dreadful things, the Covid health risk posed by the hundreds of thousands of protestors, rioters and looters across America (and Chaz!). Now the Left have returned to their Covid bugaboo and are frightened by a Trump rally because Orange Man bad, very bad!:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/18/americans-should-never-again-comply-with-pandemic-lockdown-orders/ (https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/18/americans-should-never-again-comply-with-pandemic-lockdown-orders/)
I think the protests are justified and dangerous. At least they were outdoors and most people wore masks. Even some cops did. I wish more of them had.
An indoor rally of unmasked people with 19,000 packed together is more dangerous. Even the Federalists could figure that out if it was advantageous to do so.
Considering conditions in Oklahoma and standard Trumpist behavior in large groups, would you advise members your family to go to this rally or go to a protest march where people are wearing masks? Pick one. Make it a counter-protest with "Blue Lives Matter" signs if that clarifies the issue for you.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 05:39:26 PM
This article describes the hypocrisy of the Left, who lectured honest, law abiding Americans about the necessity of government mandated shutdowns, social distancing and the critical use of masks but who ignored, among other dreadful things, the Covid health risk posed by the hundreds of thousands of protestors, rioters and looters across America (and Chaz!). Now the Left have returned to their Covid bugaboo and are frightened by a Trump rally because Orange Man bad, very bad!:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/18/americans-should-never-again-comply-with-pandemic-lockdown-orders/ (https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/18/americans-should-never-again-comply-with-pandemic-lockdown-orders/)
What are you talking about? Do you not remember Fauci-mania? It was the Trump Administration's medical experts who lectured us about this and it was to them we listened — although it was difficult to concentrate on their message because some dim witted used car salesman with a ludicrous comb-over kept interrupting the information flow. Not sure why he was there.
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 18, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
What are you talking about? Do you not remember Fauci-mania? It was the Trump Administration's medical experts who lectured us about this and it was to them we listened — although it was difficult to concentrate on their message because some dim witted used car salesman with a ludicrous comb-over kept interrupting the information flow. Not sure why he was there.
Ask a Trumpkin what he remembers. Good luck with that!
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 09:22:56 PM
Yes, Basil, the Left Wing lectured everybody about why the shutdowns and precautions were necessary, how Trump effed up the whole crisis by delaying measures to contain it and how stupid certain Right Wingers were in early May to protest against the continuation of the policies. Then George Floyd got killed and suddenly Covid didn't matter anymore, go huddle together in thousands and who cares if you're wearing a mask, have a pre-existing medical condition or you're old like that 75 year old guy in Buffalo. Justice was more important than staying alive and being safe.
Only the Left can get away with that behavior, imo.
You didn't describe any behavior. You insinuated without support or documentation that some nebulous group called "the left" might have expressed opinions about public health issues — which is to say, you wrote a fact free rant.
I stated facts: The Trump administration and its medical experts provided guidance on social distancing, wearing masks, and how to safely open the economy in stages based on reaching certain statistical benchmarks. It is also a fact that a number of states have proceeded to relax rules on social distancing, wearing masks, and so on, despite having failed to meet the criteria the administration has set out. Media of all stripes have pointed out these facts — in case you develop an interest in such things.
And fact-free rant = not much of an opinion.
Quote from: Dowder on June 18, 2020, 09:12:26 PM
Not all was outdoors, like the looting inside the retail and department stores. I also saw a lot of videos where no one was wearing masks. I get it, it was their constitutional right to destroy and steal stuff for justice so the Covid thang took a back seat.
The protests were not conducted in stores. Looters and vandals should be arrested and tried for crimes they commit.
I don't confuse the constitutionally protected with the criminal. I've read and heard oceans of commentary on these events. The looters and vandals aren't getting support from anywhere on the spectrum.
I see you support lecturing against the public health lecturers, who you deem liberal as a way of imputing improper motivation to them. Can I lecture against that, please?
If you get lectures concerning public health measures and support for them from political liberals, does that mean the substance of the lectures has become liberal by an osmotic process? Suppose conservatives got there first and endorsed advice that everyone wear masks and listen to scientists (I know, I'm only supposing), would that make the advice conservative?
Nothing is true or right just because a faction supports or opposes it. The claim itself should be judged.
"I leave this rule for others when I'm dead
Be always sure you're right — THEN GO AHEAD!"
I am very concerned about the future of the United States.
There are several irreconcilable issues that separate the conservative right and the Democrats in the United States.
The conservative right appears to think they can prevail through rhetoric and controlling the courts. They do not seem to understand those of us on the left have strong beliefs as well.
Four irreconcilable issues are:
A woman's right to choose.
Darwin is real and the world is over 10,000 years old.
Climate change is real.
Minorities do not have the same opportunities in this country as white people.
I have yet to hear anything from the right, including rationalizations questioning my intelligence, that would change my feelings on any of these issues.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 19, 2020, 08:11:36 AM
I am very concerned about the future of the United States.
There are several irreconcilable issues that separate the conservative right and the Democrats in the United States.
The conservative right appears to think they can prevail through rhetoric and controlling the courts. They do not seem to understand those of us on the left have strong beliefs as well.
Four irreconcilable issues are:
A woman's right to choose.
Darwin is real and the world is over 10,000 years old.
Climate change is real.
Minorities do not have the same opportunities in this country as white people.
I have yet to hear anything from the right, including rationalizations questioning my intelligence, that would change my feelings on any of these issues.
First off, a large number of conservatives accept evolution and the age of the universe. A bunch of them are atheists, in fact. That creationists are highly vocal distorts their number.
Second, on climate change the real dispute is on the reason for it and what to do. The conservative view is generally that the scientific case for AGW is much weaker than its advocates contend. And there are a significant number of conservatives who do believe in AGW. They just don't think massive regulation and government intervention is a very efficient means to deal with it.
Third, almost all conservatives agree with the left on systemic racism. They differ in the solutions: they believe that most government programs and regulations on the subject simply lock in the problem, don't solve it, often make it worse.
The difference is on how to solve the problem, not on what the problem is.
Abortion: conservatives think the unborn are human lives and like all human lives should not be terminated unless it's truly necessary to save another human life. [And most conservatives think that modern medical knowledge makes that rare, and any baby aborted in the last trimester could be instead delivered alive as a preemie and treated accordingly.] No one has the right to choose another human being's existence.
So perhaps the differenced are not as big as you think they are.
Nothing says Weak like an incumbent asking for an extra debate:
Trump campaign makes pitch for fourth debate with Biden amid declining poll numbers (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-campaign-makes-pitch-for-fourth-debate-with-biden-amid-declining-poll-numbers/2020/06/18/bcc6b3ac-b19c-11ea-a567-6172530208bd_story.html)
What can public health matter compared to the infantile President needing to feel good?
"You can bet that Trump will be absolutely jazzed for the event, and will not hold back. [H]e has held 81 rallies since becoming president, but it has been three and a half months since his last one. He has plainly found the wait maddening, not only because he believes that each rally is a shot of political adrenaline that will inevitably boost his steadily falling standing, but also because he draws strength and reassurance from them.
His every day may be filled with bad news and crises he is ill-equipped to handle, but when he bathes in the fevered worship of the MAGA faithful, he knows that he is doing a terrific job and is on the way to a sweeping reelection victory."
Rip GW statue. Apparently Trump predicted it a few years ago while people rolled their eyes.
Thanks again to JBS for putting David Frum on my radar. I just heard an hour long interview with him from last year that was smart and articulate:
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-good-fight/e/63218100?autoplay=true
The thread of the conversation leads them to spend a lot of time on immigration issues.
I was reminded of him earlier today when I saw a copy of his book on W. called The Right Man, which I would previously have passed by, but will now get in the next few days. From the interview it sounds like he's revised some of his views in the book in later Atlantic articles.
Quote from: JBS on June 19, 2020, 10:10:52 AM
First off, a large number of conservatives accept evolution and the age of the universe. A bunch of them are atheists, in fact. That creationists are highly vocal distorts their number.
Second, on climate change the real dispute is on the reason for it and what to do. The conservative view is generally that the scientific case for AGW is much weaker than its advocates contend. And there are a significant number of conservatives who do believe in AGW. They just don't think massive regulation and government intervention is a very efficient means to deal with it.
Third, almost all conservatives agree with the left on systemic racism. They differ in the solutions: they believe that most government programs and regulations on the subject simply lock in the problem, don't solve it, often make it worse.
The difference is on how to solve the problem, not on what the problem is.
Abortion: conservatives think the unborn are human lives and like all human lives should not be terminated unless it's truly necessary to save another human life. [And most conservatives think that modern medical knowledge makes that rare, and any baby aborted in the last trimester could be instead delivered alive as a preemie and treated accordingly.] No one has the right to choose another human being's existence.
So perhaps the differenced are not as big as you think they are.
Clarification: I know that that there are conservatives who believe in a woman's right to choose, climate change,
etc.It appears that based on the polls I have seen those who are anti-choice, anti-climate change, anti-Darwin,
etc. control the Republican Party. Please, show me any evidence that the majority of Republicans believe in climate change. I actually know of conservatives who deny climate change because they feel it contradicts the parable of the Great Flood.
The real stickler is a woman's right to choose. If a person thinks life begins at conception I have no idea what can be said. I know. I have tried and it appears hopeless. Even when I mention that in "Numbers" in the
Old Testament a husband can have a baby aborted if believes that another man is the father. It seems that both sides have drawn a line in the sand and the other side is to blame.
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 19, 2020, 05:05:17 PM
Thanks again to JBS for putting David Frum on my radar. I just heard an hour long interview with him from last year that was smart and articulate:
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-good-fight/e/63218100?autoplay=true
The thread of the conversation leads them to spend a lot of time on immigration issues.
I was reminded of him earlier today when I saw a copy of his book on W. called The Right Man, which I would previously have passed by, but will now get in the next few days. From the interview it sounds like he's revised some of his views in the book in later Atlantic articles.
You should check out Frum's latest book:
Trumpocalypse: Restoring American Democracy
Quote from: arpeggio on June 19, 2020, 06:48:57 PM
Clarification: I know that that there are conservatives who believe in a woman's right to choose, climate change, etc.
I actually know of conservatives who deny climate change because they feel it contradicts the parable of the Great Flood.
The real stickler is a woman's right to choose. If a person thinks life begins at conception I have no idea what can be said. I know. I have tried and it appears hopeless. Even when I mention that in "Numbers" in the Old Testament a husband can have a baby aborted if believes that another man is the father. It seems that both sides have drawn a line in the sand and the other side is to blame.
I hadn't heard of the Flood being invoked to deny climate change.
The idea that the Sotah ritual involved abortion is bosh, the sort of thing devised by people who ignore the actual evidence. If the woman was guilty of adultery, she died as a result of drinking the bitter waters. Some women schemed to take it because they were barren; the Torah says that if the woman was innocent she would have children as recompense if she was barren. And there are accounts in Rabbinic literature which describe it; the ordeal was administered until about 50 CE, when it was abolished. (The ordeal was abused by husbands who wanted to divorce their wives without paying the money Jewish law ordered them to pay the wife in the case of divorce. If the wife admitted guilt, she avoided the ordeal but he could divorce her without paying the money.)
You seem to think the idea that human life begins at conception to be wrong. So let me phrase it another way: the embryo or fetus will be a human being within the next nine months. The simple fact means it deserves all the protections and respect now that we will give after birth.
Quote from: JBS on June 19, 2020, 07:29:04 PM
I hadn't heard of the Flood being invoked to deny climate change.
The idea that the Sotah ritual involved abortion is bosh, the sort of thing devised by people who ignore the actual evidence. If the woman was guilty of adultery, she died as a result of drinking the bitter waters. Some women schemed to take it because they were barren; the Torah says that if the woman was innocent she would have children as recompense if she was barren. And there are accounts in Rabbinic literature which describe it; the ordeal was administered until about 50 CE, when it was abolished. (The ordeal was abused by husbands who wanted to divorce their wives without paying the money Jewish law ordered them to pay the wife in the case of divorce. If the wife admitted guilt, she avoided the ordeal but he could divorce her without paying the money.)
You seem to think the idea that human life begins at conception to be wrong. So let me phrase it another way: the embryo or fetus will be a human being within the next nine months. The simple fact means it deserves all the protections and respect now that we will give after birth.
We can go back and forth on this all day. The bottom line is our differences concerning a woman's right to choose are irreconcilable.
Quote from: Dowder on June 19, 2020, 08:49:28 PM
JBS, you're trying to have a sincere conversation with a socialist who repeats the same left wing talking points again and again and again. His ideology won't allow him to budge, hence this:
His ideology is irreconcilable to facts and argumentation that contradicts it so he attempts to cancel the conversation. ::)
You finally have me. I will not budge on this issue. One mistake you are making is to think this a socialist issue. I know of many non-socialists, even some conservatives, who are pro-choice. Even Goldwater was pro-choice.
No matter what I say you will come up with all sorts of reasons on why I am an evil person because of my position on this issue. So why bother?
If you want to accuse me of being stubborn and close minded about this my response is guilty as charged. For once you can actually accuse me of being something that I am. And I was pro-choice when I was a conservative.
It is easy to be pro-life when you can not get pregnant. Most women are pro-choice. It is wrong for a group of men who want to use the state to impose their morality on women. I am sure you have a plethora of arguments on why you have the right to do so.
Can I remind you all that post here ought to on be on the topic at hand, and not about each other ?
So, no personally directed comments. No "you/he this/that"... It's pretty simple...
Q
Quote from: Que on June 20, 2020, 02:27:50 AM
Can I remind you all that post here ought to on be on the topic at hand, and not about each other ?
So, no personally directed comments. No "you/he this/that"... It's pretty simple...
Q
Ironically I agree. I will be more careful.
"Is Garrett Rolfe guilty of felony murder?"
That's the title of this video about the killing of Rayshard Brooks in Atlanta.
I like this channel because it's by a very sober nonpartisan expert in psychology and crime. Great channel and an interesting take. Unfortunately, It's a political issue in more ways than one.
https://youtu.be/BZY_MLZiRcI (https://youtu.be/BZY_MLZiRcI)
Raise your hand, if you didn't know that Barr would be merely an unprincipled stooge:
"The Trump administration announced late Friday that Manhattan U.S. Attorney Geoffrey Berman, who has overseen a number of investigations involving the president and his political campaign, will be leaving that job, though Berman fired back that he had not resigned and intends to stay in the job to ensure the cases continue unimpeded.
The surreal Friday night standoff marks the latest battle over the Trump administration's management of the Justice Department. Democrats have decried what they charge has been the politicization of the department under President Trump and his attorney general, William P. Barr.
Barr announced the personnel change in a statement, saying the president plans to nominate the current chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, Jay Clayton, for the job.
Berman's office has been conducting a criminal investigation of President Trump's personal lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, in a campaign finance case that has already led to charges against two of Giuliani's associates."
Quote from: arpeggio on June 19, 2020, 08:00:03 PM
We can go back and forth on this all day. The bottom line is our differences concerning a woman's right to choose are irreconcilable.
So it would seem. But I do remain curious how they think the Flood makes climate change possible. Would you mind explaining?
Quote from: Todd on June 20, 2020, 07:18:11 AM
San Francisco Protesters Tear Down Union General Ulysses S. Grant's Statue (https://www.newsweek.com/san-francisco-protests-ulysses-s-grant-statue-slavery-1512316)
Social Justice Warriors are smart!
They are either dumb or know what they are doing- if they know what they are doing, it's obvious the intent is to destroy all of American history. Destroying the history of a country, along with excessive censorship and banning/cancelling stuff is the first step in a communist revolution. It started with taking down statues of people that probably shouldn't have had ones to begin with (confederate bozos), but then it just escalates without any brakes. But it's more of a steady acceleration, since going full speed all at once would create too much backlash (it's been a few years since they started this statue removal). Kind of like a virus that has to slowly adapt to its host and not kill it before it spreads. Or frogs boiling in water. The first step to get people on their side is to use certain terms- racism, Nazism, etc. because they are almost entirely universally hated in the US. That's how you unify people best, after all- create a common enemy, and those enemies already happened to exist. Now that you are onboard with being anti-whatever, wanna help me destroy America? :)
Quote from: arpeggio on June 19, 2020, 06:48:57 PM
The real stickler is a woman's right to choose. If a person thinks life begins at conception I have no idea what can be said. I know. I have tried and it appears hopeless.
I didn't know anybody still doubted that life began at conception. (If not at which stage and how does the embryo or later fetus suddenly become alive?) But this does not answer the question if or under which circumstances abortion is admissible.
Quote from: Dowder on June 19, 2020, 08:49:28 PM
JBS, you're trying to have a sincere conversation with a socialist who repeats the same left wing talking points again and again and again. His ideology won't allow him to budge, hence this:
His ideology is irreconcilable to facts and argumentation that contradicts it so he attempts to cancel the conversation. ::)
That's not a good interpretation of his refusal to budge, which doesn't come from socialism any more than my refusal to budge on some positions is due to whatever ideology I might adopt. Ideology is more interesting than zealots want it to be. A good one is flexible enough to allow experience and reflection to keep it fresh so it doesn't become just another repository of ex-wisdom like certain well known beliefs.
I probably wouldn't say "I won't budge" because I'm a stickler for how I describe the process. Dawkins hit it out of the park when he said a god was not disproven, but was extremely improbable. I say Hume's view on miracles would apply.
The dispute isn't factual, it's about who decides policy, and the ability of powers-that-be to get inside a body and act there with the force of law. I see an ethical problem, too, in such an overreach to prevent an act deemed immoral by means of another immoral act. On practical and ethical grounds the interventionists have a hard case to make and a harder task of enforcement against even those in their own traditions. Certainly views inherited from times when women were subject to property rights and not the owners of them won't serve today like they once did.
I treat my own quasi-refusals as subject to revision Dawkins-like. I'm open to further evidence and argumentation, and I predict that my opponents who are not open won't come up with much to sway me.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 20, 2020, 08:33:44 AM
I didn't know anybody still doubted that life began at conception.
No one does in the world. It's easier to argue against hypothetical ignorance.
Quote from: greg on June 20, 2020, 08:18:00 AM
They are either dumb or know what they are doing- if they know what they are doing, it's obvious the intent is to destroy all of American history.
They are more interested in making history true to what happened. That's why statues are coming down.
Tulsa race massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre)
The Tulsa race massacre (also called the Tulsa race riot, the Greenwood Massacre, or the Black Wall Street Massacre) took place on May 31 and June 1, 1921, when mobs of white residents attacked black residents and businesses of the Greenwood District in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It has been called "the single worst incident of racial violence in American history." The attack, carried out on the ground and from private aircraft, destroyed more than 35 square blocks of the district—at that time the wealthiest black community in the United States, known as "Black Wall Street".
More than 800 people were admitted to hospitals and as many as 6,000 black residents were interned at large facilities, many for several days. The Oklahoma Bureau of Vital Statistics officially recorded 36 dead. A 2001 state commission examination of events was able to confirm 36 dead, 26 black and 10 white, based on contemporary autopsy reports, death certificates and other records. The commission gave overall estimates from 75–100 to 150–300 dead.
The massacre began over Memorial Day weekend after 19-year-old Dick Rowland, a black shoeshiner, was accused of assaulting Sarah Page, the 17-year-old white elevator operator of the nearby Drexel Building. He was taken into custody. After the arrest, rumors spread through the city that Dick Rowland was to be lynched. Upon hearing reports that a mob of hundreds of white men had gathered around the jail where Dick Rowland was being kept, a group of 75 black men, some of whom were armed, arrived at the jail with the intention of helping to ensure Dick Rowland would not be lynched. The sheriff persuaded the group of black men to leave the jail, assuring them that he had the situation under control. As the group of black men was leaving the premises, complying with the sheriff's request, a member of the mob of white men attempted to disarm one of the black men. A shot was fired, and then according to the reports of the sheriff, "all hell broke loose". At the end of the firefight, 12 people were killed: 10 white and 2 black. [18] As news of these deaths spread throughout the city, mob violence exploded.
White rioters rampaged through the black neighborhood that night and morning killing men and burning and looting stores and homes, and only around noon the next day Oklahoma National Guard troops managed to get control of the situation by declaring martial law. About 10,000 black people were left homeless, and property damage amounted to more than $1.5 million in real estate and $750,000 in personal property (equivalent to $32.25 million in 2019). Their property was never recovered nor were they compensated for it. I haven't decided on the statue thing. I'm against the mob thing even more than idolatry. In a less emotional environment we could have discussions about how to rid ourselves of these things lawfully. I admire Churchill for the usual reasons and think a statue of him should be allowed to lawfully and gracefully topple itself. When more of the public decides to put less myth and more realism in their historical view things will be different in a non-hooliganish way.
Quote from: drogulus on June 20, 2020, 09:01:39 AM
In a less emotional environment we could have discussions about how to rid ourselves of these things lawfully.
The confederate ones should be in museums- Grant and Washington absolutely do not deserve to be toppled, they should be on full public display.
Just give it another year or two, I bet they will be going for MLK. There's already people that don't like him for the fact that he advocated peaceful protests. Seems that is the next logical step.
I think now is the time when many liberals will have to make a decision on how far they want to join the communists- either go along with them or have a schism and say enough is enough.
Quote from: greg on June 20, 2020, 08:18:00 AMThey are either dumb or know what they are doing
There are some in both categories. Race is the oldest and most potent wedge issue. Republicans and Democrats both use it expertly.
Quote from: drogulus on June 20, 2020, 09:01:39 AM
I admire Churchill for the usual reasons and think a statue of him should be allowed to lawfully and gracefully topple itself.
Preferably by an excess of drink, not some drunk anarchist hooligans.
That, incidentally, is also one of the problems I have with the current fad of idolatry. Look at the brainless white idiots delighting in their destruction and dancing on the thing with flip-flops and Kufiya, holding on to their joint in their free hand. There's no consideration there, no nuance, no will for reflection or self-criticism; the cause is, at best, the thin whitewash for their lootish tendencies.
Some statues might have to go, others ought probably remain. But it does us well to consider the changing mores of the times that the type of people we once put on pedestals, we now wish to pretend never existed.
I don't see how such a statue should not also be able to become a statue reminding us of our past follies and future attempts of getting it right; a warning... a shaming perhaps even... or -- dreaming here -- a symbol to the nuance in life... where the bad and the good, the evil and the dear often go hand in hand. And, failing that, build a bigger statue of the heroes-de-jour right next to it, twice as big, to put it into context.
Quote from: Todd on June 10, 2020, 03:35:38 PM
I do wonder if an enlightening and factual discussion of criminology can occur on GMG.
I wonder if police/community interactions would improve it policing returned to the "beat" system. A policeman used to be assigned to a specific area of his city-- several square blocks, downtown, a neighborhood, etc.-- which he would walk. Residents would get to know him and he would get to know the residents. If he responded to a "situation" there was the increased likelihood he would know the people involved and act accordingly. I am fascinated watching the strolling cop in Hollywood movies of the 1940s and '50s. Now, unless there is trouble I only see the police in patrol cars and I know them little more than they know me. Long ago I read that the beat system was "inadequate" for some reason not specified.
Quote from: geralmar on June 20, 2020, 10:25:56 AM
I wonder if police/community interactions would improve it policing returned to the "beat" system. A policeman used to be assigned to a specific area of his city-- several square blocks, downtown, a neighborhood, etc.-- which he would walk. Residents would get to know him and he would get to know the residents. If he responded to a "situation" there was the increased likelihood he would know the people involved and act accordingly. I am fascinated watching the strolling cop in Hollywood movies of the 1940s and '50s. Now, unless there is trouble I only see the police in patrol cars and I know them little more than they know me. Long ago I read that the beat system was "inadequate" for some reason not specified.
I've been thinking the same thing. We NEED to get a personal relationship back between police and policed. From both sides. Not easily possible in vast neighborhoods, I suppose, or in very dangerous ones. But it's necessary. And the police needs to be trained not to perceive every interaction with civilians as a potential threat, even though all too many such encounters obviously are. The police needs to, in essence, let down its guard, accept higher losses in certain situations, and start de-escalating rather than militarizing. And it needs better educated, better-paid people. Don't defund the police. Fund it better and make it more accountable.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 11:02:18 AMAnd the police needs to be trained not to perceive every interaction with civilians as a potential threat, even though all too many such encounters obviously are.
Who says they aren't?
Quote from: Todd on June 20, 2020, 11:09:53 AM
Who says they aren't?
The all-too-many incidents we see, witness, and even experience say that too many are not adequately trained.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 11:14:52 AM
The all-too-many incidents we see, witness, and even experience say that too many are not adequately trained.
Not really. Training varies across jurisdictions, and how different officers respond to specific situations also varies. The politicized press relies on sensationalism to sell papers and entice clicks. To be sure, there are too many incidents of use of excess force, but without knowing what types of training police officers actually receive, and what alternatives are available, a blanket proclamation about how police are trained appears inaccurate, or at least incomplete.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 11:14:52 AM
The all-too-many incidents we see, witness, and even experience say that too many are not adequately trained.
Ask a Trumpkin to open his eyes: good luck with that!
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 11:14:52 AM
The all-too-many incidents we see, witness, and even experience say that too many are not adequately trained.
If one doesn't accept the obvious "out" of inadequate training, there are not many options remaining if you wish to exclude racism or just plain meanness. Certainly there are percentages of all of those things, but speaking as a retired professional trainer, I have to say, even IF inadequate training is the root cause, there is still a 'hearts and minds' issue. Simply teaching right from wrong has no value without buy-in... :-\
8)
Someone deserving of being on a pedestal? Perhaps...
(https://i.imgur.com/mB5oGU0.jpg)
8)
Quote from: Todd on June 20, 2020, 11:29:45 AMNot really. Training varies across jurisdictions, and how different officers respond to specific situations also varies. The politicized press relies on sensationalism to sell papers and entice clicks. To be sure, there are too many incidents of use of excess force, but without knowing what types of training police officers actually receive, and what alternatives are available, a blanket proclamation about how police are trained appears inaccurate, or at least incomplete.
Blanket statements are, indeed, of limited use. And yes, obviously readers prefer to click on things that outrage them... and the press responds.
But that said, there are
clearly too many officers who respond in ways that are not helpful (to understate it, considerably). And even without knowing what alternatives are available, it is also clear that an alternative is necessary. And it's not just training, of course. It is, as Gurn points out, a matter of the material... the people.
Ultimately, we need police to take greater risks, be more prepared, and -- to put it very bluntly -- more intelligent and empathetic. And that means they need to earn a lot more money to attract the right crop of people... and the screening needs to be better.
No such brief point can do justice to the realities. But we're not asked to draft legislation or the like. We're merely thinking about what might bring on the change that is so direly needed. And what we need is an end to the police-vs.-populous perception. The demilitarization of the police while ensuring their safety in extreme situations. (Of which they encounter many... but not always... or even in the majority of times.) And an end to the vicious circle where police suspect anyone to be a criminal and wrong-doer before sorting the facts as best they can. Heck, I don't know how to introduce humanity back into a business that sees and deals with some grim stuff. But we ought to try. Even if discussing this in a classical music forum might not seem like a particularly effective way of getting there.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2020, 12:38:03 PM
Ask a Trumpkin to open his eyes: good luck with that!
Karl, there's no point casting out people who think differently than we/you, on appearance or allegiance. We are all -- most of us, at any ate -- striving towards a better society. It's much more interesting to figure out where the differences lie and to try to overcome them and find the common denominators than to cast judgment and dismiss a whole section -- imagined or real -- of the population at hand. That's what's gotten us in that mess in the first place.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 01:07:01 PMBut that said, there are clearly too many officers who respond in ways that are not helpful (to understate it, considerably).
It is not at all clear that this is the case. (This is premised on an interpretation of the use of underlining as a way to emphasize something perceived to be widespread or close to widespread.) The main problem with this topic, and the reason I posed the question I did last week, is that these discussions end up being factless. I do understand that there is no "national database" of police activity, to use an idea I've seen repeated in the press multiple times, but claims of how many officers do what are not backed up with facts. I know DOJ publishes data, as do state level agencies, but those reports do not inform these discussions, nor do they typically inform sensationalist reporting.
Now, let's take the salary argument. What do police officers earn on average? A quick Google search will reveal one number that means next to nothing. It does not account for wide differences even within states. Nor does it account for pensions, which absolutely must be considered in total compensation. It also does not account for overtime. It is not unheard of for police to earn more than time and a half on overtime. As with claims about teacher salaries, it is far more complex than simply stating they should earn more. (What profession should earn less?)
The argument that screening needs to be better, that officers need to be more intelligent - meaning what,
precisely? - and empathetic - same question - again fails to take into account widely varying standards. For instance, Multnomah County deputies must have a four year degree. Other jurisdictions across the country require similar educational standards. And yet these jurisdictions also have examples of improper behavior.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 01:07:01 PMAnd what we need is an end to the police-vs.-populous perception.
Not everyone perceives things this way.
Quote from: greg on June 20, 2020, 09:58:09 AM
The confederate ones should be in museums- Grant and Washington absolutely do not deserve to be toppled, they should be on full public display.
Just give it another year or two, I bet they will be going for MLK. There's already people that don't like him for the fact that he advocated peaceful protests. Seems that is the next logical step.
I think now is the time when many liberals will have to make a decision on how far they want to join the communists- either go along with them or have a schism and say enough is enough.
The communists have a decision to make about whether they will join me. I don't make decisions for them and likewise.
Quote from: Todd on June 20, 2020, 01:32:13 PM
Not everyone perceives things this way.
It's already broken if too many do.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 02:02:31 PM
It's already broken if too many do.
How many do, and who determines how many is too many?
Quote from: drogulus on June 20, 2020, 09:01:39 AM
That's not a good interpretation of his refusal to budge, which doesn't come from socialism any more than my refusal to budge on some positions is due to whatever ideology I might adopt...
Thanks, your response is better that anything I could come up with ;)
Quote from: arpeggio on June 20, 2020, 02:29:40 PM
Thanks, your response is better that anything I could come up with ;)
I do qualify my observation when I say it applies to ideologies with learning in them. Not all people who think they are socialist are learners, though one expects that dedicated non-learners will call themselves something more ferocious to indicate that.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 01:07:01 PM
Karl, there's no point casting out people who think differently than we/you, on appearance or allegiance.
You're right, and I do not.
Back, briefly, to policing. I live in a town with a population of 4,000. I could easily walk across it in half an hour. Yet the police zip around in police cruisers, too fast to get a sense of what is really happening in my neighborhood (admittedly very little). I have no idea which cop is the car that rolls by at 1:30 a.m. each morning when I feed the neighborhood stray cat. I doubt the cop even sees me wave. Last week I read about an idiot in a "gated community" of Los Angeles who called the police because she saw a black man in the wrong place. The police officer who responded immediately recognized the man as a homeowner just working in his own yard; said hello, and the incident was over without any racial ugliness or police "mistake". (The woman was savaged on social media). The stop could have escalated tragically if the cop did not know the (black) man. I have no knowledge why the neighborhood cop and foot patrols ended. The cynical part of me suspects a climate controlled car with a convenient cup holder and no need to actually get out and walk had as much to do with it as "effective policing". I know "walking a beat" is not a panacea-- as a kid I learned to read by working through the Sunday Detroit Free Press and was puzzled by the recurring story about the "negroe male" killed by an errant police "warning shot"-- but I do believe at least some of the police/community disconnect would recede if police presence didn't feel like an alien occupying army.
None of this is to minimize the issues of "police culture" and police unions. I retired from local government and learned much about our police from the human resources manager.
Oklahoma reports more than 300 new cases on day of Trump rally. Also seen (I paraphrase minimally): Trump holds indoor rally disregsarding CDC guidelines on masks and social distancing—Trump loves you loving him more than he loves you living.
Quote from: Dowder on June 20, 2020, 04:10:14 PM
I disagree a 100%, he is the perfect example of an ideologue repeating ad naseum the same critiques despite being corrected or confronted multiple times. When unpleasant facts or realities get in the way he refuses to answer them, ends the conversation and then waits for another chance to repeat himself all over again.
There are many reasons for my feelings concerning this issues. One of them is that I had a close relative who many years ago had an abortion for medical reasons. It was a very difficult decision for her. In spite of her circumstances I know that some would be unsympathetic. In this instance it is very unfair to accuse me of being an ideologue.
Abortion is a difficult issue and there are no easy answers. I want to respect the feelings of those who disagree but it is difficult.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 20, 2020, 06:01:31 PM
There are many reasons for my feelings concerning this issues. One of them is that I had a close relative who many years ago had an abortion for medical reasons. It was a very difficult decision for her. In spite of her circumstances I know that some would be unsympathetic. In this instance it is very unfair to accuse me of being an ideologue.
Abortion is a difficult issue and there are no easy answers. I want to respect the feelings of those who disagree but it is difficult.
Mutual respect as a start helps.
Quote from: Dowder on June 20, 2020, 04:10:14 PM
The state places restrictions on other forms of behavior and intervenes all the time. Not a valid argument. Further, if a woman chooses to have the child the father is legally (and morally!) obligated to support the baby. He has no say over "her body" but is on the rap for what comes out if it. Terrible legal double standard there and an intervention by the state.
What the state does all the time doesn't tell you much about whether they should do it any of the time. In any case one should apply stricter scrutiny for attempts to control reproductive equipment than for less invasive measures.
I find it noteworthy that you would think men should be compensated for their financial liability for what you've portrayed as a state interest in protecting life. I suspected we'd get to the property argument at some point. Yes, the state interest in protecting life gets a bit warped by the atavistic concern for who owns the goods. These days the property aspect dare not speak its name loudly. Occasionally there's a slip,
inshallah.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Mutual respect as a start helps.
You always have the fallback of mutually assured destruction.
Sorry, I'm going through a Herman Kahn phase. I just DL'd
Dr. Strangelove in 4K.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2020, 07:13:35 PM
Actually, the moderator reads and occasionally posts in this thread. I removed your inappropriate post, at my discretion.
8)
Don't you love liberty and the Alamo?
Trump says he wanted coronavirus testing slowed in grievance-filled speech to unfilled arena (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/20/tulsa-trump-rally/)
In a speech lasting nearly two hours — filled with grievances, falsehoods and misleading claims — Trump said that because more testing means higher numbers of known coronavirus cases, his direction was to curtail it. I'd like to think the empty seats reflect a loss of support, which means I don't.
I wouldn't know what to say to a moderator if I complained. I believe I did once many years ago though I've forgotten everything about it.
Quote from: Dowder on June 20, 2020, 07:28:27 PM
That's a non-answer. We've already given up power for the state to intervene in countless ways in our lives. The fruit of the reproductive equipment has intrusive legal and financial consequences. You need a new argument.
I focused on that aspect because earlier you said facts didn't matter. I took it you were conceding the reality that life begins at conception.
If you believe state intervention is bad why do you think a more extreme form is OK? And why do you think the moral dilemma of abortion can be resolved by compensating an injured party with a property claim? You're abandoning a defensible position for an anachronism with no general support. Most men don't want the women in their family to have an inferior set of personal freedoms. I consider my relatives of the female persuasion to be as autonomous as I am.
I don't think when life begins tells you when it's prudent and productive for the state to undertake drastic restraint on citizens over their basic body functions. People shouldn't have abortions in public. I'll go that far.
A tweet from the Tulsa World, the local paper
QuoteUSGS just confirmed an earthquake at 10:15 p.m. that could be felt in Tulsa. The quake registered 4.2 magnitude and was centered near Perry, which is about two hours west of Tulsa.
Quote from: drogulus on June 20, 2020, 08:09:10 PM
Trump says he wanted coronavirus testing slowed in grievance-filled speech to unfilled arena (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/20/tulsa-trump-rally/)
In a speech lasting nearly two hours — filled with grievances, falsehoods and misleading claims — Trump said that because more testing means higher numbers of known coronavirus cases, his direction was to curtail it.
I'd like to think the empty seats reflect a loss of support, which means I don't.
The Fox spin - for that and every other facepalm moment - is that he's a "comedic genius".
Fox versus every other media outlet in the USA, which is to the Left. Yep, that's 'fair'. Were it not for News Corporation it would be daily fake news from the vast media cohort who hate Trump. Imagine criticizing the ONE outfit which provides an alternative; that's real fear for you.
I watched the speech today and thought Trump spoke in an unstatesmanlike way; at times I feared he might divulge state secrets. But when he said to Boeing about Air Force One costs "it has to have a 3 in front of it" I knew this man knows how to do business and that this is a foreign language to the "Brahmin" caste of self-appointed elites in "the swamp".
I actually fear for the mental well-being of Joe Biden who will be eviscerated in those debates. Trump is a crocodile; unstable at times, irrational even but the only one with the chops to slap down the armies of grievance junkies who are destroying the USA. Biden's family and supporters should be ashamed of themselves for putting him in front of this raptor. But they don't care; it's merely collateral damage!! Biden should be put out to pasture; the poor man only lost a son a couple of years ago. I'd like to see that old gargoyle Nancy Pelosi facing off with Trump!
It has to be said: the USA is a sad and neurotic nation in the 21st century. Having no external wars to distract them, they're turning on themselves.
Here's the man opining on testing for the China virus.
https://uk.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVCJ6K15R
Trump does this precisely to get a rise out of the Left and you can hear their heads exploding as I write this. The man is worth his weight in gold for the derision with which he treats the extreme Left in the USA. And we loved the Kungflu joke today. Yes people have died, but they die in car accidents and people still joke about bad driving.
We're trying to enjoy this as long as we can because the identitarian Left is waiting in the wings to control, censure, finger-wag, cancel-culture, virtue signal and all up make it impossible for people to conduct business. At the heart of the Left is deep envy, hatred and resentment and, boy, does it show!! Dressed up as virtue, of course, just like the Bolsheviks.
Quote from: drogulus on June 20, 2020, 07:18:22 PM
You always have the fallback of mutually assured destruction.
Sorry, I'm going through a Herman Kahn phase. I just DL'd Dr. Strangelove in 4K. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
We must not allow a mineshaft gap!
Quote from: Christabel on June 21, 2020, 04:04:47 AM
Trump does this precisely to get a rise out of the Left and you can hear their heads exploding as I write this. The man is worth his weight in gold for the derision with which he treats the extreme Left in the USA. And we loved the Kungflu joke today. Yes people have died, but they die in car accidents and people still joke about bad driving.
We're trying to enjoy this as long as we can because the identitarian Left is waiting in the wings to control, censure, finger-wag, cancel-culture, virtue signal and all up make it impossible for people to conduct business. At the heart of the Left is deep envy, hatred and resentment and, boy, does it show!! Dressed up as virtue, of course, just like the Bolsheviks.
What about those that are not comfortable with this: My Bolshevik vs. your Bolshevik showdown?
What about those who are not content to confront the "control-happy, censure-touting, finger-wagging, cancel-culture identitarian Left" with the basest instincts; with a relinquishing of standards and common decency or even any (conservative) principles?
Only because I don't like one extreme, why ought we embrace or even tolerate another? Why should we think that a narcissistic loon of outrageous proportions is an acceptable alternative to a doddering idiot?
We're witnessing a chase of the lowest common denominators; we cast off any idea of authority -- moral or otherwise; we accept only a world view in which the "others" are the total enemy and "we" the threatened reasonable remainders. And everyone who doesn't commit to either side is equally guilty as the worst of them. Civility and morality be damned, if they don't support our cause.
Well... that's rushing headlong into a _sh*t_ society. And both outer wings are equally to blame.
The look of a loser: Trump rallies in red-state America — and faces a sea of empty blue seats
At least this chap wears a mask and is social distancing
What do the Trumpkins think about their Hero exhorting that testing should be slowed down?
Quote from: Dowder on June 20, 2020, 09:01:32 PM
We're not discussing real estate or intellectual property rights. Whether a human life is even allowed a life or killed for convenience requires more sober terminology.
By denying the right of the father to "choose" you've limited his autonomy. Basically women are given dictatorial powers while obligating that responsibility and costs are shared.
No, we're discussing a property claim by a man over a woman he impregnates. Male autonomy requires that a woman has none.
You decided a moral argument wasn't good enough. I don't think so, either, for different reasons. The property argument, though, is bad any way you look at it. A man could force a woman to have an abortion or force her to give birth because all autonomy belongs to him. It's his, yes? He's the man. If she decides for herself he becomes an injured party.
I also note that this position has nothing to do with the base case of a woman deciding to abort with no man asserting a claim against her.
Quote from: Christabel on June 21, 2020, 04:04:47 AM
Trump does this precisely to get a rise out of the Left and you can hear their heads exploding as I write this. The man is worth his weight in gold for the derision with which he treats the extreme Left in the USA. And we loved the Kungflu joke today. Yes people have died, but they die in car accidents and people still joke about bad driving.
We're trying to enjoy this as long as we can because the identitarian Left is waiting in the wings to control, censure, finger-wag, cancel-culture, virtue signal and all up make it impossible for people to conduct business. At the heart of the Left is deep envy, hatred and resentment and, boy, does it show!! Dressed up as virtue, of course, just like the Bolsheviks.
Life is so hard these days. We never used to worry about virtue, signals, wagging fingers, cancellation etc.
In the days that were old and not that good a different concept of social justice was accepted. Underlings of all kinds knew their place was under.
Quote from: Christabel on June 21, 2020, 04:04:47 AM
Trump does this precisely to get a rise out of the Left and you can hear their heads exploding as I write this. The man is worth his weight in gold for the derision with which he treats the extreme Left in the USA. And we loved the Kungflu joke today. Yes people have died, but they die in car accidents and people still joke about bad driving.
There is no "extreme left" in the USA.
What you're talking about is just people who could, 25 years ago, have been Republicans.
Quote from: Herman on June 21, 2020, 06:59:11 AM
There is no "extreme left" in the USA.
What you're talking about is just people who could, 25 years ago, have been Republicans.
Of course, there is an extreme left in the USA. It might be much smaller and even less influential than its opponents tend to think it is (partly because of media overrepresentation and catchy issues)... but it's there. To suggest otherwise would be as absurd as it would be suggesting there's no extreme right. Only because the needle for the political middle in the US is right-of-center of what it is in many other countries, and only because there's a large conservative wing of the DEMS (fast declining, as both parties tend to scurry to the edges), that doesn't mean there isn't a thoroughly left element to US politics. Perhaps it's no longer as discernible as 'classically left', because the issues have, partly, changed.
The people you are talking about, granted... the "Reagan Democrats", if you will, exist also. And no, those don't constitute the "extreme left".
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 21, 2020, 07:08:03 AM
Of course, there is an extreme left in the USA. It might be much smaller and even less influential than its opponents tend to think it is (partly because of media overrepresentation and catchy issues)... but it's there.
The center has changed like it has in the past. If you want to decide what's extreme you have to identify where that center is and work towards the edges. Otherwise you're stuck with definitions that only make sense to a hypothesized decider. All of you to the left of me are extreme. The center is where I am, only I call it the right, or the left or whichever one I want.
For practical reason I use the same shorthand others do, because that makes communication possible. So public health measures are located on the left because all of them once were, or so the story goes.
Quote from: drogulus on June 21, 2020, 06:40:45 AM
No, we're discussing a property claim by a man over a woman he impregnates. Male autonomy requires that a woman has none.
You decided a moral argument wasn't good enough. I don't think so, either, for different reasons. The property argument, though, is bad any way you look at it. A man could force a woman to have an abortion or force her to give birth because all autonomy belongs to him. It's his, yes? He's the man. If she decides for herself he becomes an injured party.
I also note that this position has nothing to do with the base case of a woman deciding to abort with no man asserting a claim against her.
You are pretending there is no third person involved: the unborn child. Just because it can't speak up for itself does not mean it has a claim here.
The entire pro choice idea is grounded on the idea that the unborn child does not have the status of a human being. Once you understand that's a false idea, there's no reason to accept abortion other than in cases of medical necessity.
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 07:45:36 AM
You are pretending there is no third person involved: the unborn child. Just because it can't speak up for itself does not mean it has a claim here.
I'm not doing that. How persons are defined has a history and a present, and people lobby to change it this way or that based on moral principle or legal ones, and in some cases will import old property rights distinctions from an era when women were subservient in ways that are no longer accepted widely enough to be generally applied. We won't go back, so abortion arguments have to be made in the present context.
Part of the problem from a historical perspective is that so much was assumed about how legal personhood worked. The modern notions don't easily fit. One such notion is that old timey people didn't understand that humans only gave birth to humans, so "life begins at conception" is advanced science. Now we know! This is not right. How permissible abortion was throughout history never depended on a discovery of that kind. Whether abortion is permitted or not can't hinge on a distinction like that.
Quote from: drogulus on June 21, 2020, 08:53:21 AM
I'm not doing that. How persons are defined has a history and a present, and people lobby to change it this way or that based on moral principle or legal ones, and in some cases will import old property rights distinctions from an era when women were subservient in ways that are no longer accepted widely enough to be generally applied. We won't go back, so abortion arguments have to be made in the present context.
Part of the problem from a historical perspective is that so much was assumed about how legal personhood worked. The modern notions don't easily fit. One such notion is that old timey people didn't understand that humans only gave birth to humans, so "life begins at conception" is advanced science. Now we know! This is not right. How permissible abortion was throughout history never depended on a discovery of that kind. Whether abortion is permitted or not can't hinge on a distinction like that.
It's got nothing to do with property rights. If it's wrong to terminate a human life eight months after birth, it's wrong to terminate a human life eight months before birth.
Life begins at conception is not a scientific question. It's a statement of fact. The only argument against it rests on the idea that some lives are worth less than other lives.
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 09:05:21 AM
Life begins at conception is not a scientific question. It's a statement of fact. The only argument against it rests on the idea that some lives are worth less than other lives.
Of course it's a fact. I don't argue against it. I've been saying that the legal arguments are about something else, more than one something. When these arguments about law and morality fail to convince, the fallback is a bogus claim that science has a new fact to consider about when life begins.
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB15NaQo.img?h=584&w=874&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=2040&y=1942)
This image must be as deflating for Republicans as the half-empty Senate Visitor's Gallery during the impeachment "trial" was for Democrats. The outcome of the election, like the "trial", is foreordained.
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 09:05:21 AM
Life begins at conception is not a scientific question. It's a statement of fact. The only argument against it rests on the idea that some lives are worth less than other lives.
Life of some kind begins at conception. More than half of all fertilized eggs never implant and end up in public waste disposal systems. Should we all grieve nonstop for the horrifying billions of lost human lives this represents? What about the minimal addition to this total caused by IUDs? If one believes that a supreme being designed or is otherwise intentionally responsible for the human reproductive system, it becomes hard to believe such a Creator cares much about the survival of "human life" in its early stages. When does the supreme being begin to care? When should we? I don't think the answer "at conception" is defensible.
Quote from: drogulus on June 21, 2020, 09:17:46 AM
Of course it's a fact. I don't argue against it. I've been saying that the legal arguments are about something else, more than one something. When these arguments about law and morality fail to convince, the fallback is a bogus claim that science has a new fact to consider about when life begins.
Okay, I know to put you in "some humans are worth more than others" category.
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 21, 2020, 10:52:47 AM
Life of some kind begins at conception. More than half of all fertilized eggs never implant and end up in public waste disposal systems. Should we all grieve nonstop for the horrifying billions of lost human lives this represents? If one believes that a supreme being designed or is otherwise intentionally responsible for the human reproductive system, it becomes hard to believe such a Creator cares much about the survival of "human life" in its early stages. When does the supreme being begin to care? When should we? I don't think the answer "at conception" is defensible.
It's not our job to decide what God's reasons are, or whether what God does is good or not. It's our job to be decent human beings, and part of that is caring for life from the earliest possible moment to the last possible moment.
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 10:56:55 AM
Okay, I know to put you in "some humans are worth more than others" category.
I think you changed the subject, because that's not a view I hold. Mine is closer to some religious traditions concerning "quickening" than more recent innovations of the absolutist kind. I say close, in that such views at least made room for human decision about human matters. Inhuman entities are supposed to make these decisions only because we installed them first, sometimes for very good reasons. For my part I consider the reasons separately from where they were put when they were put there. The reasons must be sufficient outside the cult that professes to own them, or they don't serve as a basis for law.
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 11:00:11 AM
It's not our job to decide what God's reasons are
Yes, it is, and always has been.
Separately:
At the end of the rally he threw this in: "When you see those lunatics all over the streets, it's damn nice to have arms."
Roosevelt Statue to Be Removed From Museum of Natural History (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/arts/design/roosevelt-statue-to-be-removed-from-museum-of-natural-history.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)
I wonder if the museum will find the time to remove references to the country Rhodesia in its African section, too.
Quote from: Todd on June 21, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
Roosevelt Statue to Be Removed From Museum of Natural History (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/arts/design/roosevelt-statue-to-be-removed-from-museum-of-natural-history.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)
I wonder if the museum will find the time to remove references to the country Rhodesia in its African section, too.
I could only read half of the article before the paywall kicked in.
Does it make clear that the problem with the statue is not TR but the positioning of a black man and a Native American as inferior supporters?
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 02:52:36 PM
I could only read half of the article before the paywall kicked in.
Does it make clear that the problem with the statue is not TR but the positioning of a black man and a Native American as inferior supporters?
Yes. Entirely clear.
QuoteIn many of those cases, the calls for removal were made by protesters who say the images are too offensive to stand as monuments to American history. The decision about the Roosevelt statue is different, made by a museum that, like others, had previously defended — and preserved — such portraits as relics of their time and that however objectionable, could perhaps serve to educate. It was then seconded by the city, which had the final say.
"The American Museum of Natural History has asked to remove the Theodore Roosevelt statue because it explicitly depicts Black and Indigenous people as subjugated and racially inferior," Mayor Bill de Blasio said in a statement. "The City supports the Museum's request. It is the right decision and the right time to remove this problematic statue."
Quote from: Todd on June 21, 2020, 10:28:26 AM
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB15NaQo.img?h=584&w=874&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=2040&y=1942)
This image must be as deflating for Republicans as the half-empty Senate Visitor's Gallery during the impeachment "trial" was for Democrats. The outcome of the election, like the "trial", is foreordained.
That's possibly true, but it's enjoyable all the same for this non-American to see Trump causing Lefty heads to explode. And they do, right on cue!! He's not really Presidential in that sense, but the times are so toxic and cancerous with Lefty woke politics and their Taliban acolytes that this form of chemotherapy was absolutely necessary in the first place.
No soul-searching, self-awareness of re-appraisal from the Left: just the usual doubling down and "he was wrong". If you want that regime to continue you need to install a puppet you can manipulate who isn't capable of thinking for himself - and a reversion to identity politics, as before. Oh, wait...
Quote from: Todd on June 21, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
Roosevelt Statue to Be Removed From Museum of Natural History (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/arts/design/roosevelt-statue-to-be-removed-from-museum-of-natural-history.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)
I wonder if the museum will find the time to remove references to the country Rhodesia in its African section, too.
The subheader says "The equestrian memorial to Theodore Roosevelt
has long prompted objections as a symbol of colonialism and racism." just in case there's a knee-jerk reaction to the headline as this merely being part of some irrational craze of the current moment.
Quote from: Christabel on June 21, 2020, 03:04:29 PM
That's possibly true, but it's enjoyable all the same for this non-American to see Trump causing Lefty heads to explode. And they do, right on cue!! He's not really Presidential in that sense, but the times are so toxic and cancerous with Lefty woke politics and their Taliban acolytes that this form of chemotherapy was absolutely necessary in the first place.
No soul-searching, self-awareness of re-appraisal from the Left: just the usual doubling down and "he was wrong". If you want that regime to continue you need to install a puppet you can manipulate who isn't capable of thinking for himself - and a reversion to identity politics, as before. Oh, wait...
I think everybody made everybody worse and social media helped. Or, maybe social media made everybody worse and everybody helped? I sort of agree that "woke" politics is self-destructive hysteria. The worst thing about it is it takes us away from reality - the reality of the problems the world is facing and I'm not excluding some of the problems that woke-sters are trying to address. We're forgetting other more pressing things though. I disagree that left politics is the cancer. It's a symptom of the medium is the message - IMO. The answer is not to put a garbage-head like tump in charge of hollowing out government and creating more hate, division and despair. The world cannot wait. And the more vacuum there is, in terms of of reason, the more chance it'll be filled by feckless blowhards.
Prior to COVID the American economy was pumping and black Americans had the lowest unemployment in history. By stopping the flow of illegal, undocumented workers, wages were naturally rising.
This is how to deal with inequality alongside an attitude of aspiration rather than disempowerment. I don't see a black victim when I listen to Candace Owens or Dr Ben Carson, or many other black people who reject the narrative of oppression, itself a form of oppression.
The left like to talk about 'systemic racism' but as Dave Rubin noted in a recent interview, the left own the institutions in America from academe to the judiciary. The left don't support school choice for example, which would give black people who want a good education the option of good schools. It's Trump's policy and the Dems are beholden to unions so naturally the Left are against it. So who does systemic racism of low expectations? Who needs an angry victim class for relevancy?
Notice the calls to defund the police are backed by those people who can afford the luxury of private security. Cities like NY are seeing an explosion in violent crime.
It's poor black and white communities who bear the brunt of stupid policy pushed by the far left with endorsement of wealthy narcissistic celebrities who do little of practical value but like to virtue signal in cringeworthy videos. How about they do something useful like set up scholarships for bright black kids?
As a side note, it's interesting that Rubin now gets labelled as "alt right". He's your classical liberal (openly gay man living in California) who woke up to the toxicity of far leftist ideology and left the Left - hence the hate. He calls it 'red pilling' and believes more thinking people who once identified as Democrat are fleeing the party.
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 02:52:36 PMDoes it make clear that the problem with the statue is not TR but the positioning of a black man and a Native American as inferior supporters?
It does, and anyone who has been there would also see it. Depending on which exhibits visitors happen to stop by, they may see other outdated representations of other peoples. For such a vaunted museum in such a wealthy city with so many wealthy benefactors, some of the exhibits are quite outdated. The whole thing appears well suited to a full scrub down in today's cancel culture. Erase the past and replace it with something more sanitized and less prone to trigger poor, oppressed souls.
Quote from: Dowder on June 21, 2020, 04:00:57 PM
Hold your horses, big guy. There's been a lot of controversy about that today and Dems like AOC are claiming left wing trolls on Tik Tok sabotaged the attendance while Team Trump claims people stayed home and watched it from there due to Covid fears.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-rejects-idea-that-tiktok-k-pop-fans-sabotaged-rally-dont-know-what-theyre-talking-about (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-rejects-idea-that-tiktok-k-pop-fans-sabotaged-rally-dont-know-what-theyre-talking-about)
One video circulating on Twitter seems to corroborate AOC and Dem meddling in Tulsa:
https://twitter.com/ravagiing/status/1274797591146967043?s=21 (https://twitter.com/ravagiing/status/1274797591146967043?s=21)
U3 = 13.3% = Trump defeat.
Acceptance > Denial.
Quote from: Dowder on June 21, 2020, 04:12:49 PMHey, I'm just talking about the rally.
The rally was underattended. Acceptance > Denial.
I won't use the obvious FDR references, but rather I will offer the case of Ike. He was reelected after unemployment rose by 1.4 points. Ike > Trump.
Quote from: Dowder on June 21, 2020, 04:00:57 PM
Hold your horses, big guy. There's been a lot of controversy about that today and Dems like AOC are claiming left wing trolls on Tik Tok sabotaged the attendance while Team Trump claims people stayed home and watched it from there due to Covid fears.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-rejects-idea-that-tiktok-k-pop-fans-sabotaged-rally-dont-know-what-theyre-talking-about (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-rejects-idea-that-tiktok-k-pop-fans-sabotaged-rally-dont-know-what-theyre-talking-about)
One video circulating on Twitter seems to corroborate AOC and Dem meddling in Tulsa:
https://twitter.com/ravagiing/status/1274797591146967043?s=21 (https://twitter.com/ravagiing/status/1274797591146967043?s=21)
Anyone who showed up could have gotten in. Meaning there were not quite 13,000 people who could have gotten in despite the trolling...but didn't.
If they stayed away because of Covid19, that just shows some Trump supporters are not dumb.
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 04:33:00 PM
Anyone who showed up could have gotten in. Meaning there were not quite 13,000 people who could have gotten in despite the trolling...but didn't.
If they stayed away because of Covid19, that just shows some Trump supporters are not dumb.
One can but hope.
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 21, 2020, 03:06:03 PM
The subheader says "The equestrian memorial to Theodore Roosevelt has long prompted objections as a symbol of colonialism and racism." just in case there's a knee-jerk reaction to the headline as this merely being part of some irrational craze of the current moment.
Some seem not to be much of a reader.
Seattle Chaz shooting: police say violent crowd prevented access to victims (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/21/seattle-chaz-shooting-police-free-zone)
Video footage backs up the police account. Only one thug died. Not a loss.
60 Shot, 9 Fatally, So Far This Weekend in Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/56-shot-9-fatally-so-far-this-weekend-in-chicago/2293066/)
Protesters and their enablers online are right: Defund the police!
Quote from: Dowder on June 21, 2020, 04:44:24 PMBetween 5-6 million viewed it online.
Irrelevant.
Quote from: Christabel on June 21, 2020, 03:40:06 PM
Prior to COVID the American economy was pumping and black Americans had the lowest unemployment in history. By stopping the flow of illegal, undocumented workers, wages were naturally rising.
This is how to deal with inequality alongside an attitude of aspiration rather than disempowerment. I don't see a black victim when I listen to Candace Owens or Dr Ben Carson, or many other black people who reject the narrative of oppression, itself a form of oppression.
The left like to talk about 'systemic racism' but as Dave Rubin noted in a recent interview, the left own the institutions in America from academe to the judiciary. The left don't support school choice for example, which would give black people who want a good education the option of good schools. It's Trump's policy and the Dems are beholden to unions so naturally the Left are against it. So who does systemic racism of low expectations? Who needs an angry victim class for relevancy?
Notice the calls to defund the police are backed by those people who can afford the luxury of private security. Cities like NY are seeing an explosion in violent crime.
It's poor black and white communities who bear the brunt of stupid policy pushed by the far left with endorsement of wealthy narcissistic celebrities who do little of practical value but like to virtue signal in cringeworthy videos. How about they do something useful like set up scholarships for bright black kids?
As a side note, it's interesting that Rubin now gets labelled as "alt right". He's your classical liberal (openly gay man living in California) who woke up to the toxicity of far leftist ideology and left the Left - hence the hate. He calls it 'red pilling' and believes more thinking people who once identified as Democrat are fleeing the party.
Dave Rubin is the dummest guy the right has to offer. Did you see his new book? Even conservatives can't own that. How long is he going to milk the mantra of, "I am a liberal"? I guess as long as he gets paid to. I mean, how dishonest can you get calling yourself a liberal when talking with Stefan Molyneux about brain sizes and IQ? What disgusting people he promotes. There's a truly ugly person. Or, it is possible that he doesn't understand what anybody is talking about in any given moment. Maybe that's his excuse (and the reason he deleted said clip). So, how much do you think the trend we had is due to the Obama economy? I guess 0%. I think conservatives can do better than this fatuous talking point (that you make in an honest well-meaning spirit). If you gave Obama half the credit, I'd at least think, "OK, there's a discussion to be had here."
Quote from: milk on June 21, 2020, 05:21:10 PM
Dave Rubin is the dummest guy the right has to offer. Did you see his new book? Even conservatives can't own that. How long is he going to milk the mantra of, "I am a liberal"? I guess as long as he gets paid too. I mean, how dishonest can you get calling yourself a liberal when talking with Stefan Molyneux about brain sizes and IQ? What disgusting people he promotes. There's a truly ugly person. Or, it is possible that he doesn't understand what anybody is talking about in any given moment. Maybe that's his excuse (and the reason he deleted said clip). So, how much do you think the trend we had is due to the Obama economy? I guess 0%. I think conservatives can do better than this fatuous talking point (that you make in an honest well-meaning spirit). If you gave Obama half the credit, I'd at least think, "OK, there's a discussion to be had here."
Rubin promotes whatever and whomever the people who pay him want him to. He's a completely empty shell of a human being. I only pay attention to him because he's fun to dunk on. Simple pleasures.
Quote from: Dowder on June 21, 2020, 05:40:16 PM
Here I was told the liberals and Dems were the party of science. As Molyneux likes to point out, national IQ in Asian countries is higher than most western ones. I don't find that racist or offensive.
I'm sure you probably find Charles Murray offensive, too.
This topic is best avoided. I'm sorry I brought it up. It's not going to do you any good either. I wouldn't go spouting off about race and brain sizes if I were Rubin since neither of them seem nuanced or acting in good-faith. I don't know what accounts for Rubin's stupidity but I'm not postulating anything genetic. Maybe too many high-level ideas have left him catatonic.
Quote from: milk on June 21, 2020, 07:31:32 PM
This topic is best avoided. I'm sorry I brought it up. It's not going to do you any good either. I wouldn't go spouting off about race and brain sizes if I were Rubin since neither of them seem nuanced or acting in good-faith. I don't know what accounts for Rubin's stupidity but I'm not postulating anything genetic. Maybe too many high-level ideas have left him catatonic.
For anyone curious, here's a good video on The Bell Curve, the usual source of "race science" these days. I hope a link is allowed in the interest of education:
https://www.youtube.com/v/UBc7qBS1Ujo
Quote from: milk on June 21, 2020, 07:31:32 PM
This topic is best avoided. I'm sorry I brought it up. It's not going to do you any good either. I wouldn't go spouting off about race and brain sizes if I were Rubin since neither of them seem nuanced or acting in good-faith. I don't know what accounts for Rubin's stupidity but I'm not postulating anything genetic. Maybe too many high-level ideas have left him catatonic.
Dave has heard all these accusations since he abandoned the Left; bitterness is their stock in trade. Insults are NEVER arguments. Thomas Sowell (black Economist and PhD) has written:
"Have we reached the ultimate stage of absurdity where some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, while other people are not held responsible for what they are doing today?"
And he talks about how the Left rejects facts because these are not "emotionally satisfying". We're talking about a cohort which just isn't terribly bright here.
Quote from: milk on June 21, 2020, 05:21:10 PM
Dave Rubin is the dummest guy the right has to offer. Did you see his new book? Even conservatives can't own that. How long is he going to milk the mantra of, "I am a liberal"? I guess as long as he gets paid to. I mean, how dishonest can you get calling yourself a liberal when talking with Stefan Molyneux about brain sizes and IQ? What disgusting people he promotes. There's a truly ugly person. Or, it is possible that he doesn't understand what anybody is talking about in any given moment. Maybe that's his excuse (and the reason he deleted said clip). So, how much do you think the trend we had is due to the Obama economy? I guess 0%. I think conservatives can do better than this fatuous talking point (that you make in an honest well-meaning spirit). If you gave Obama half the credit, I'd at least think, "OK, there's a discussion to be had here."
Emotion-laden garbage; stock in trade of the modern Left, which has abandoned reason in favour of hysteria and emotion. That is why politically they are on the run the democratic world over. Dr. Thomas Sowell nails it.
Spoiler alert; he's African American!!
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/thomas-sowell-quotations-on-the-political-left/
"Intellectual bankruptcy" - yeah, that works. Also, another way I've heard it put is by Eric Weinstein: Modern universities are in "intellectual receivership". They turn out unthinking robots in Humanities degrees who learn little but how to spout nostrums and bromides of the Left - which are largely meaningless.
Bottom line; the Left has less money than the Right. I'm happy with THAT, since I cannot alter the other paradigms.
Quote from: Christabel on June 22, 2020, 12:29:49 AM
Emotion-laden garbage; stock in trade of the modern Left, which has abandoned reason in favour of hysteria and emotion. That is why politically they are on the run the democratic world over. Dr. Thomas Sowell nails it. Spoiler alert; he's African American!!
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/thomas-sowell-quotations-on-the-political-left/
"Intellectual bankruptcy" - yeah, that works. Also, another way I've heard it put is by Eric Weinstein: Modern universities are in "intellectual receivership". They turn out unthinking robots in Humanities degrees who learn little but how to spout nostrums and bromides of the Left - which are largely meaningless.
Bottom line; the Left has less money than the Right. I'm happy with THAT, since I cannot alter the other paradigms.
Intellectual Dark Web madlib? To me, a lot of these guys just milk the same thing for far too long. I get it, Rubin was a "liberal." I'd say "move on," but he's got nothing to move on to (ever see his comedy? It's awful!). Can I gently recommend to you that Glenn Loury and John McWhorter are much more respected and accomplished than the nuts Rubin usually parades through his chambers? Even Sam Harris, who has sat with Rubin, is better but you don't bring him up because he's a never tumper.
Quote from: Daverz on June 21, 2020, 09:15:19 PM
For anyone curious, here's a good video on The Bell Curve, the usual source of "race science" these days. I hope a link is allowed in the interest of education:
https://www.youtube.com/v/UBc7qBS1Ujo
Gosh I think I've subscribed to that guy. Is he a libertarian type? Not that I am but I seem to recall liking his videos. But this is 2+ hours. Is it worth the dive?
ETA yeah, worth it.
Quote from: Dowder on June 21, 2020, 05:40:16 PM
Here I was told the liberals and Dems were the party of science. As Molyneux likes to point out, national IQ in Asian countries is higher than most western ones. I don't find that racist or offensive.
I'm sure you probably find Charles Murray offensive, too.
See Daverz link above: it's worth a watch. Might change your mind.
Quote from: Todd on June 21, 2020, 04:55:29 PM
Seattle Chaz shooting: police say violent crowd prevented access to victims (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/21/seattle-chaz-shooting-police-free-zone)
Video footage backs up the police account. Only one thug died. Not a loss.
According to he article, what the footage shows is that police were told by members of the crowd that the victim had already been taken to the hospital, which, it seems, he had. Why do you call the victim a thug?
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 22, 2020, 04:26:34 AM
According to he article, what the footage shows is that police were told by members of the crowd that the victim had already been taken to the hospital, which, it seems, he had. Why do you call the victim a thug?
Because everyone involved with Chaz is a thug.
And there's been another shooting in Chaz: One person wounded in second shooting in Seattle's 'Chaz' protest zone (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/seattle-shooting-chaz-protest-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone)
The left's dreams are coming true.
From the Graun: Republican dark money groups set sights on taking control of 2020 district maps (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/republican-dark-money-groups-2020-election?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0d1YXJkaWFuVG9kYXlVUy0yMDA2MjI%3D&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUS_email&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUS)
A couple enjoyable lines from rightlines.gop
Socialism starts in the states. Let's stop it there, too.
Join our fight to keep socialists from drawing Congressional maps
While the cause is obviously just, were I to give money to anyone, it would be Cocaine Mitch.
Quote from: geralmar on June 21, 2020, 08:24:39 PM
Trump returning to White House Saturday night after disastrous Tulsa, Oklahoma rally.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgBzXyNB/Eb-DIPHEXs-AIpu-KC.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
No; I'm not gloating.
(https://postimages.org/)
The Please Tell Me You Love Me Tour
Quote from: Todd on June 22, 2020, 04:32:43 AM
Because everyone involved with Chaz is a thug.
This is Seattle. I think the expression you're looking for (quoting Jeffrey Goines of Twelve Monkeys fame) is "ineffectual liberal jerk-off."
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 22, 2020, 05:22:37 AM
This is Seattle. I think the expression you're looking for (quoting Jeffrey Goines of Twelve Monkeys fame) is "ineffectual liberal jerk-off."
No, thug is the word. The shootings prove it. Chaz certainly needs trigger warnings posted, that much is certain.
Some love and do swallow the President's shabby disinformation:
"A Twitter account that claimed to be run by antifa activists and called for violence at the protests was later linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa. A viral May 27 tweet, from a popular QAnon account, alleged that the protests were an effort by the "deep state" to "start a race war before the election," arguing "antifa & BLM are domestic terrorist organizations that need to be STOPPED." Conservative media outlets and prominent Twitter influencers, including Donald Trump Jr., amplified the theory that antifa was connected to the violence."
'The Biden campaign put out a statement bashing Trump's remark. In a written statement, the campaign argued that "as the American people suffer through rising coronavirus cases and fight to get back to work and get our economy back on track, Donald Trump made one of the most damning admissions in presidential history: that he ordered federal officials to slow down testing just to artificially suppress numbers and conceal his atrocious mismanagement of the worst public health crisis in generations." Biden's team declared that "it wasn't a joke: it was a confession. Look no further than Trump's own past statements." The statement concluded, "Donald Trump just announced to the entire country that he cares more about saving his job than he does about saving lives or building our economy back. And that is unforgettable."'
Quote from: Todd on June 22, 2020, 04:32:43 AM
Because everyone involved with Chaz is a thug.
And there's been another shooting in Chaz: One person wounded in second shooting in Seattle's 'Chaz' protest zone (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/seattle-shooting-chaz-protest-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone)
The left's dreams are coming true.
Don't know if I'm allowed to say it (mild spice level alert), but the newest nickname I've heard:
The Soyviet Union. 😆
Quote from: Todd on June 22, 2020, 05:29:45 AM
No, thug is the word. The shootings prove it. Chaz certainly needs trigger warnings posted, that much is certain.
I wasn't aware the shooter had been apprehended and identified as a Chazian citizen. Now that's some fine and expeditious police work there! ::)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 22, 2020, 05:13:22 AM
The Please Tell Me You Love Me Tour
You know, his (whoever's/whatever's) hair looks much better like that. One could almost mistake him for a normal American male!
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 22, 2020, 07:11:40 AM
You know, his (whoever's/whatever's) hair looks much better like that. One could almost mistake him for a normal American male!
It would
kill him, to hear you say so....
I'm getting liberty spam (guns, certifications).
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 22, 2020, 07:07:41 AM
I wasn't aware the shooter had been apprehended and identified as a Chazian citizen. Now that's some fine and expeditious police work there! ::)
Was the shooter a thug or the shootee?
For those interested, so far you have to register on a website to get your free copy of the Bolton book. There, I did a virtue signal. I will explore other options (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LDcHbhCGixnpK1kl8DblqY8npGMhERbE/view?usp=sharing).
"I tend to think the second explanation — Trump was not joking (he rarely does and has no real sense of humor, mistaking insults for jokes) but may not exactly have told the truth either — is the most likely. It is plain that Trump would like to make the data look better and probably has mused about de-emphasizing testing, but it's far from clear that he would have actually given such direction knowing his advisers would consider him ignorant, disturbed or both.
In short, we have a president who does not know how to lead, does not understand what sounds irrational to average Americans (outside his base) and does not have the will or ability to broaden testing and tracing, which, along with mask-wearing (which he also disdains), hold the best promise for reducing deaths before there is a vaccine. Pelosi hit the nail on the head: The president is ethically unfit and intellectually unprepared to lead."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 22, 2020, 06:25:39 AM
'The Biden campaign put out a statement bashing Trump's remark. In a written statement, the campaign argued that "as the American people suffer through rising coronavirus cases and fight to get back to work and get our economy back on track, Donald Trump made one of the most damning admissions in presidential history: that he ordered federal officials to slow down testing just to artificially suppress numbers and conceal his atrocious mismanagement of the worst public health crisis in generations." Biden's team declared that "it wasn't a joke: it was a confession. Look no further than Trump's own past statements." The statement concluded, "Donald Trump just announced to the entire country that he cares more about saving his job than he does about saving lives or building our economy back. And that is unforgettable."'
Neither the Trump administration nor the Democrats have covered themselves in glory; both are equally execrable and if the Left was honest in the least they'd admit this too. The American people are caught between a rock and a hard place and are being as dishonest as their political masters. The end result is a neurotic and untrustworthy nation of narcissists. All of it predicted 41 years ago in "The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in the Age of Diminishing Expectations" by Christopher Lasch. Wide reading essential for truth and understanding; avoiding the luvvie media starting with the New York Times only traps you in your emotionally needy cocoon.
Dr. Thomas Sowell says, "
the Left doesn't like facts because these leave them feeling emotionally unsatisfied". Bingo.
Quote from: Dowder on June 21, 2020, 05:40:16 PM
Here I was told the liberals and Dems were the party of science. As Molyneux likes to point out, national IQ in Asian countries is higher than most western ones. I don't find that racist or offensive.
I'm sure you probably find Charles Murray offensive, too.
Anyone one who follows the word "science" with the name "Molyneux" has zero understanding of what science is. Molyneux is a misogynist, white supremacist hate peddler and would-be cult leader. And he's creepy as fuck.
Yes, Charles Murray is offensive, because he's a racist crank who no serious person would represent as believable on any topic.
I think I may have found a fake Trump tweet shared on facebook...
googled it word for word and found absolutely nothing about it. People outraged not even bothering to google it. I could tell it was suspicious because if he actually tweeted that it would be news, it was so inflammatory and quite racist.
Just the perfect thing we need, right? Idiots giving in to their tribalistic urges and not bothering to find out the truth when it is a one minute search will be the downfall... ::)
Quote from: Daverz on June 22, 2020, 03:25:30 PM
Yes, Charles Murray is offensive, because he's a racist crank who no serious person would represent as believable on any topic.
Just like the President!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 22, 2020, 07:02:24 PM
Just like the President!
America is a sad, pathetic and neurotic nation not worth a pinch of shit. Bad people get shocking leaders. If you want better leaders you need to be better people.
Watched a CNN video recently that was supposed to sell people the idea that Trump is a racist, using some clips of his (I do appreciate the actual source).
I'm willing to believe it, as I never liked the guy, but it did not sell me on it. It didn't seem to cross the line to be obviously racist to an indifferent party. Sure, his vague style of speech doesn't help, in that it is open to interpretation, which means enemies will take it to mean the worst.
Crossing the line would be something like the fake tweet that I saw today- it had the phrase "full of savages" when referring to Puerto Rico. But the thing even says "department of memes" in Spanish, and if you google it, it's nowhere, obviously fake (also the media would never let him live that one down). He's insensitive, inappropriate, but not seeing the racism, perhaps if you dig deeper or something? Still waiting for proof of it.
Quote from: Christabel on June 22, 2020, 08:08:35 PM
America is a sad, pathetic and neurotic nation not worth a pinch of shit. Bad people get shocking leaders. If you want better leaders you need to be better people.
And where are you from again?
Quote from: Christabel on June 22, 2020, 08:08:35 PM
America is a sad, pathetic and neurotic nation not worth a pinch of shit. Bad people get shocking leaders. If you want better leaders you need to be better people.
Trump was elected as result of a quirk in our election system. He lost the popular vote.
The majority of us knew the crises we are in would eventually happen. If we said anything about three years ago we would have been accused at the very least of being paranoid.
The members of our electorate who support Trump are a minority but a sizable one.
It's hard to follow Christabel's train of thought, but I suspect he's saying that the Obama and Clinton voters are the "bad people" and the fact that Hilary won the popular vote is evidence to him of...oh I dunno...something.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 22, 2020, 10:16:43 PM
Trump was elected as result of a quirk in our election system. He lost the popular vote.
The majority of us knew the crises we are in would eventually happen. If we said anything about three years ago we would have been accused at the very least of being paranoid.
The members of our electorate who support Trump are a minority but a sizable one.
Trump was elected, because enough people voted for him in enough states. The Electoral College has been in place since 1787. It's not news. It's elected every president, GOP or DEM. Let's not pretend we don't know how it works or why it exists in the first place. "He lost the popular vote" is really quite a meaningless statement, employed by the party that lost. It is merely coincidence, I suppose, that four out of five Presidents where the popular national* vote did not align with the actual election results as per EC, were Republican. (Hayes, Harrison, Bush, Trump) And compared to the first two such cases, the difference in popular vote (half a percent for GW and 2 percent for Trump) is marginal.
Those who, rightly for innumerable good reasons (and some less good ones), bemoan the election of Trump should not look to the EC but why 29,029,707 American voters cast their ballot for Trump in the first place.
That's not just a "sizeable" minority, it's -- if you squint -- half of the country that bothers to vote. Trump may be a freak - but he is no freak accident. And if those voters' concerns are not addressed (I'm not saying: pandered to!), this will repeat itself, sooner or later.
From my perspective, the constant bevy of awful choices among candidates, usually coming down to the lowest common denominator, is one factor. The fact that the American electorate doesn't take third party candidates as seriously as they well might (and ought to), another. Of course, the latter is groomed and furthered by the RNC and DNC in absolute harmonious lockstep. The Simpsons had an excellent episode about that (
Zorg and Gorg [Kang and Kodos], I believe, turned out to be alien candidates... Oh, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFaesfO7fQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFaesfO7fQ).)
If there is a problem -- and I tend to think there is one -- it won't be solved by deriding the EC (which exists, will continue to exist, and has good reasons to do so), but by ridding ourselves of political Gerrymandering. But neither of the two main parties has any interest in that... and won't, until either party thinks that they are permanently, long-term, and systemically disadvantaged by the system. But unfortunately the rewards of 'getting to do it yourself' are too great for them to feel that way (as of yet).
Too bad there's not an automatic device that says bye-bye to people who only register here to post agit-prop posts and maybe one or two token posts about music.
Dr Fauci to testify to Congress today to Congress; no wonder Bunker Boy wants rallies as a distraction.
Of course, Trumpkins don't believe there should be oversight of this "administration."
"The testimony will be Fauci's first since a highly anticipated appearance a month ago, and it comes on the heels of President Trump's comments at a controversial campaign rally over the weekend that he asked officials to slow testing to show fewer cases. Aides later said the comment was made in jest, but it prompted a fresh round of criticism that Trump is seeking to minimize the challenges that loom in recovering from the virus."
What kind of sycophantic chump pretetnds that these remarks are "jokes?"
) Of the 47 percent of voters who said Clinton wasn't qualified to serve, only 5 percent voted for her. That's about what you'd expect.
Of the 61 percent of voters who said the same thing about Trump, however, 17 percent ignored their judgment and voted for him anyway.
In Florida, where Trump won by just over a single percentage point, more than half the electorate found him unqualified, and yet 16 percent of those voters cast a ballot for him. In Pennsylvania, where he won by an even slimmer margin, a stunning 21 percent of voters who said Trump didn't have the right temperament for the job voted to send him to the White House.
In other words, on the night that marked his apex in political life, Trump's margin of victory came from reluctant voters who almost certainly thought they were voting for the losing candidate, and who felt confident he'd make a terrible president.
There was never anything like a groundswell for Trumpism. In fact, the election had strikingly little to do with him at all. It was mostly about the intense emotions triggered by his opponent.
In the end, some critical slice of voters who thought Clinton eminently more qualified for the job couldn't bring themselves to vote for her. And they decided their only option was to take a flyer on a guy who seemed manifestly unfit for the job — and destined to lose in any event.
There are myriad explanations for the astounding depth of this anti-Clinton sentiment; let's not re-litigate them here. What's clear is that a lot of white voters thought Clinton didn't like them very much — and her describing them as "deplorables" didn't help.
What's happened since? Certainly nothing to suggest that Trump has managed to convert his accidental victory into a burgeoning movement.
The independent voters who narrowly went for Trump in 2016 deserted him almost immediately, once they saw their worst suspicions confirmed. Trump's approval ratings have hovered just over 40 percent for most of his presidency, which is basically like a football team that goes 6-and-10 every year.
In the only national referendum on Trumpism since 2016 — the midterm cycle two years later — the president's party was resoundingly rejected.
Trump is not Ronald Reagan, standing on the shoulders of a resurgent, mainstream conservatism. He's a fringe figure preaching to a loud minority that can't fill an arena in Oklahoma, a state he won by more than 35 points in 2016. He emboldens an ugly strain of American extremism, but there's no evidence to suggest he has swollen those ranks.
According to everything we know about politics, Trump should lose in November. And he will — unless Democrats, failing to learn the right lessons from 2016, insist on cornering those same disaffected voters into backing him again.
Joe Biden isn't Hillary Clinton. He's a more naturally gifted politician, and whatever his weaknesses, phoniness and elitism have never been among them. I thought Biden would have beaten Trump walking away had he been the nominee four years ago.
There's really only one way for Trump to win this election — which is for Democrats to hand him the all-out culture war he desperately wants.
Biden and his team are too smart to fall into that trap. But the same might not be said for the party's loudest activists, such as the types who want to abolish police departments and who believe that everyone who voted for Trump is a closet Confederate.
If the fall campaign feels like another condescending, "us vs. them" indictment of the so-called deplorables, then the same people who felt trapped into voting for Trump in 2016 may do it again. And the result, despite all the evidence of his political anemia, could look the same. (
Trump in Tulsa getting a big ovation for drinking a glass of water with one hand? :laugh: His introductory harangue for this feat of strength is hilarious. Start at 13:00 and swell your hearts with patriotic pride!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL1eLRYfhFQ
Seattle will move to dismantle 'Chaz' occupied protest zone, mayor says (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/seattle-dismantle-chaz-protest-zone)
The fun is over kids. The three shootings, vandalism, and mindless thuggery displayed by the doofuses who populated Chaz, or Chop, or whatever they called it, was too much. I'm guessing the murder was the real clincher.
Note to lefties bent on taking powerful direct action to obtain social justice: don't shoot and kill anyone. It's a hard lesson for some to learn.
The mayor's incredibly slow response time calls into question her competence and commitment to public safety. Maybe voters remember next time around. Or not. Fuck it, I don't live in the Emerald City, and the one retail outlet I dig there ships its products, so it doesn't matter to me.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 23, 2020, 05:53:40 AM
Joe Biden isn't Hillary Clinton. He's a more naturally gifted politician, and whatever his weaknesses, phoniness and elitism have never been among them. I thought Biden would have beaten Trump walking away had he been the nominee four years ago.
Looking from outside (though as someone who used to live in the US), I thought Beau Biden's death was probably the single biggest contributing factor to Trump's election. And while I have many reservations about Joe Biden, I've rarely seen a politician display as obviously sincere empathy as he has in some of the eulogies he's given, from McCain to Floyd. This was something that Clinton really lacked and made it all the easier to attack her.
I'd say there's another danger the Democrats need to address, though, and that's organised voter suppression efforts. We're already seeing Trump constantly railing about voting by mail being fraudulent, the obvious difficulties with voting in person during a pandemic, and massive cuts in the number of polling places in Democrat-leaning metropolitan areas (in the KY primaries last week, there was one single polling place open for 616,000 voters in Jefferson County). It's very revealing that old-school conservatives like Bill Kristol are talking very openly about voter disenfranchisement.
Quote from: edward on June 23, 2020, 06:14:18 AM
Looking from outside (though as someone who used to live in the US), I thought Beau Biden's death was probably the single biggest contributing factor to Trump's election. And while I have many reservations about Joe Biden, I've rarely seen a politician display as obviously sincere empathy as he has in some of the eulogies he's given, from McCain to Floyd. This was something that Clinton really lacked and made it all the easier to attack her.
I'd say there's another danger the Democrats need to address, though, and that's organised voter suppression efforts. We're already seeing Trump constantly railing about voting by mail being fraudulent, the obvious difficulties with voting in person during a pandemic, and massive cuts in the number of polling places in Democrat-leaning metropolitan areas (in the KY primaries last week, there was one single polling place open for 616,000 voters in Jefferson County). It's very revealing that old-school conservatives like Bill Kristol are talking very openly about voter disenfranchisement.
Dead on, viz. voter suppression.
What a great joke!
https://www.youtube.com/v/vEzfHfLaLG4
Quote from: Todd on June 23, 2020, 06:07:01 AM
Seattle will move to dismantle 'Chaz' occupied protest zone, mayor says (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/seattle-dismantle-chaz-protest-zone)
The fun is over kids. The three shootings, vandalism, and mindless thuggery displayed by the doofuses who populated Chaz, or Chop, or whatever they called it, was too much. I'm guessing the murder was the real clincher.
Note to lefties bent on taking powerful direct action to obtain social justice: don't shoot and kill anyone. It's a hard lesson for some to learn.
The mayor's incredibly slow response time calls into question her competence and commitment to public safety. Maybe voters remember next time around. Or not. Fuck it, I don't live in the Emerald City, and the one retail outlet I dig there ships its products, so it doesn't matter to me.
Lol. Also in some cases they were pro-segregation. Yep, that's where excessive social justice gets people- full circle.
They should have shut down utilities day one and revoked US citizenship. Maybe then the crime wouldn't have happened. :P
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 23, 2020, 02:06:54 AM
Trump was elected, because enough people voted for him in enough states. The Electoral College has been in place since 1787. It's not news. It's elected every president, GOP or DEM. Let's not pretend we don't know how it works or why it exists in the first place. "He lost the popular vote" is really quite a meaningless statement, employed by the party that lost. It is merely coincidence, I suppose, that four out of five Presidents where the popular national* vote did not align with the actual election results as per EC, were Republican. (Hayes, Harrison, Bush, Trump) And compared to the first two such cases, the difference in popular vote (half a percent for GW and 2 percent for Trump) is marginal.
Those who, rightly for innumerable good reasons (and some less good ones), bemoan the election of Trump should not look to the EC but why 29,029,707 American voters cast their ballot for Trump in the first place.
That's not just a "sizeable" minority, it's -- if you squint -- half of the country that bothers to vote. Trump may be a freak - but he is no freak accident. And if those voters' concerns are not addressed (I'm not saying: pandered to!), this will repeat itself, sooner or later.
From my perspective, the constant bevy of awful choices among candidates, usually coming down to the lowest common denominator, is one factor. The fact that the American electorate doesn't take third party candidates as seriously as they well might (and ought to), another. Of course, the latter is groomed and furthered by the RNC and DNC in absolute harmonious lockstep. The Simpsons had an excellent episode about that (Zorg and Gorg [Kang and Kodos], I believe, turned out to be alien candidates... Oh, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFaesfO7fQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFaesfO7fQ).)
If there is a problem -- and I tend to think there is one -- it won't be solved by deriding the EC (which exists, will continue to exist, and has good reasons to do so), but by ridding ourselves of political Gerrymandering. But neither of the two main parties has any interest in that... and won't, until either party thinks that they are permanently, long-term, and systemically disadvantaged by the system. But unfortunately the rewards of 'getting to do it yourself' are too great for them to feel that way (as of yet).
Wow! I am trying to explain that most Americans are sane and then we get this. Maybe we are crazy.
Quote from: greg on June 23, 2020, 06:29:42 AM...and revoked US citizenship.
What? How would that work? Were they all naturalized, or were most or all of them natural born citizens? I am unaware of any legal mechanism to strip citizenship from the latter category under current case law. It's tough to strip citizenship from naturalized citizens. It should be. Yeah, talk about stripping citizenship is nonsense.
Quote from: Todd on June 23, 2020, 06:07:01 AM
Note to lefties bent on taking powerful direct action to obtain social justice: don't shoot and kill anyone. It's a hard lesson for some to learn.
You don't know who did the shooting in Seattle and neither does anyone else. The perpetrators have not been caught. You certainly don't know the political leanings of these unidentified individuals. Just more uninformed BS.
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 23, 2020, 06:40:41 AM
You don't know who did the shooting in Seattle and neither does anyone else. The perpetrators have not been caught. You certainly don't know the political leanings of these unidentified individuals. Just more uninformed BS.
;)
Quote from: Todd on June 23, 2020, 06:39:36 AM
What? How would that work? Were they all naturalized, or were most or all of them natural born citizens? I am unaware of any legal mechanism to strip citizenship from the latter category under current case law. It's tough to strip citizenship from naturalized citizens. It should be. Yeah, talk about stripping citizenship is nonsense.
Just an idea. The idea would have been to eliminate any US benefits they could get- if you are a Chazian, being a citizen of the US is not allowed alongside of that. And see how many actually stay. :P
If it is that hard to strip citizenship from natural citizens, then yeah, never mind. :P
Quote from: arpeggio on June 23, 2020, 06:38:09 AM
Wow! I am trying to explain that most Americans are sane and then we get this. Maybe we are crazy.
I'm not sure if you are insulting me -- by suggesting that what I wrote was crazy -- or whether you are being genuine. In the latter case:
Crazy? Well, disenchanted, left behind, no longer part of a tapestry of a common moral code, no longer believing in authorities, focused on what divides us rather than what unites us... all these things. Crazy is too judgemental for me, because it suggests that the people with which we disagree cannot be understood in the first place. (True for either side.) If that happens, no wonder we lose them and drift off into our respective subcultures. It's a terrible process.
A Democratic pal sent me this article, "What Don't Most Liberals Realize?," which I thought was an interesting, thoughtful read. There is something to be said for not demonizing the other side. (With some exceptions, of course.)
https://www.quora.com/What-dont-most-liberals-realize/answer/Peter-Kruger?ch=1&share=95ddcb10&srid=iAmK&fbclid=IwAR2WcWhv1c1b14otTgELViInorqNZHa_aYB5TtQiFH9HXWVomTj_PVpE9Hg
--Bruce
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 23, 2020, 06:40:41 AM
You don't know who did the shooting in Seattle and neither does anyone else. The perpetrators have not been caught. You certainly don't know the political leanings of these unidentified individuals. Just more uninformed BS.
Wave to the troll for me!
Railing against the Electoral College is nextdoor to pointless: It would take a Constitutional amendment. And only fantasists count on that, even in normal times.
Quote from: edward on June 23, 2020, 06:14:18 AM
Looking from outside (though as someone who used to live in the US), I thought Beau Biden's death was probably the single biggest contributing factor to Trump's election. And while I have many reservations about Joe Biden, I've rarely seen a politician display as obviously sincere empathy as he has in some of the eulogies he's given, from McCain to Floyd. This was something that Clinton really lacked and made it all the easier to attack her.
I'd say there's another danger the Democrats need to address, though, and that's organised voter suppression efforts. We're already seeing Trump constantly railing about voting by mail being fraudulent, the obvious difficulties with voting in person during a pandemic, and massive cuts in the number of polling places in Democrat-leaning metropolitan areas (in the KY primaries last week, there was one single polling place open for 616,000 voters in Jefferson County). It's very revealing that old-school conservatives like Bill Kristol are talking very openly about voter disenfranchisement.
Bloody hell...
Is that why the Trumpists are talking so much about this "Chaz" thing? "Don't look over there, look at this distraction over here."
Minor correction to Edward's post.
The Kentucky [and New York] primaries are today. According to this update, things are running smoothly, thanks to a high number of absentee ballots.
https://amp.courier-journal.com/amp/3237124001
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 23, 2020, 07:32:47 AM
I'm not sure if you are insulting me -- by suggesting that what I wrote was crazy -- or whether you are being genuine. In the latter case:
Crazy? Well, disenchanted, left behind, no longer part of a tapestry of a common moral code, no longer believing in authorities, focused on what divides us rather than what unites us... all these things. Crazy is too judgemental for me, because it suggests that the people with which we disagree cannot be understood in the first place. (True for either side.) If that happens, no wonder we lose them and drift off into our respective subcultures. It's a terrible process.
First I said WE ALL are crazy, including myself. I apologize for making you think that you are the crazy one.
Second, you started lecturing me as if I had no idea how the electoral college works or whether or not I am for it. For the record, I am for it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 23, 2020, 09:03:01 AM
Railing against the Electoral College is nextdoor to pointless: It would take a Constitutional amendment. And only fantasists count on that, even in normal times.
I agree.
I was reacting to the fact that I was being lectured to as if I did not understand how the electoral college works. I do understand how it works, its pros and cons, and that it would be next to impossible to replace it. I am not completely ignorant.
Anyways my head starts spinning whenever I see rationalizations that one side has a mandate when they did not win the popular vote.
Quote from: JBS on June 23, 2020, 01:12:55 PM
Minor correction to Edward's post.
The Kentucky [and New York] primaries are today. According to this update, things are running smoothly, thanks to a high number of absentee ballots.
https://amp.courier-journal.com/amp/3237124001
Who wants to stand in line to vote? Blech. Vote by mail is the only way to go.
Provided you get a ballot before the deadline for sending it back in. Right?
Quote from: arpeggio on June 23, 2020, 01:29:18 PM
I agree.
I was reacting to the fact that I was being lectured to as if I did not understand how the electoral college works. I do understand how it works, its pros and cons, and that it would be next to impossible to replace it. I am not completely ignorant.
Anyways my head starts spinning whenever I see rationalizations that one side has a mandate when they did not win the popular vote.
Never meant to suggest that you are ignorant!
This thread seems to be the best place to post this. Somewhat long but meaty on the subject of police killings in the U.S.
https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/06/65309/
Quote from: JBS on June 23, 2020, 08:41:16 PM
This thread seems to be the best place to post this. Somewhat long but meaty on the subject of police killings in the U.S.
https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/06/65309/
Remember being asked not to just post links?
I have to focus to understand this no link thing. I don't get it.
Anyways, I'm sure this article comes off as a little amateurish but, still, I wonder if it's true:
Last October, US technology giant Google announced that it had built a quantum computer that performed calculations in 200 seconds that would have taken a conventional supercomputer 10,000 years to perform. What this could mean for human civilisation is unprecedented. A stable quantum computer with that much computing power would transform complex financial risk management into child's play, take years off pharmaceutical research and development, leave vast amounts of personal data open to manipulation, and trigger a revolution in artificial intelligence and machine learning, which in turn would give modern militaries unmatched advantage in war.
Most crucially, a powerful quantum computer able to shave 10,000 years off its calculations would render previously unbreakable internet encryption useless, and replace it with unbreakable quantum encryption. Quantum calculations would be able to crack any current encryption code in existence. It follows, therefore, that whichever nation masters quantum supremacy first could instantly hack the entire internet, from the highly personal information of world leaders to every nation's state bank encryption...Let there be no doubt that, if reliably achieved, quantum supremacy changes the world...This is why the US and China are in a race to determine who will first achieve quantum supremacy.
https://unherd.com/2020/06/we-will-have-to-take-a-side-in-cold-war-ii/?fbclid=IwAR2KME1m90ZMUpVUuQBi2IQMHvWHOQctuwlzlqNe8UmZhqKveOlhsdof8xM
(https://unherd.com/2020/06/we-will-have-to-take-a-side-in-cold-war-ii/?fbclid=IwAR2KME1m90ZMUpVUuQBi2IQMHvWHOQctuwlzlqNe8UmZhqKveOlhsdof8xM)
Just something else to worry about :)
Quote from: JBS on June 23, 2020, 08:41:16 PM
This thread seems to be the best place to post this. Somewhat long but meaty on the subject of police killings in the U.S.
https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/06/65309/
Some interesting research there, unfortunately in the service of union bashing: "This killing is largely driven by the same kinds of bureaucratic malfeasance and self-dealing that conservatives have criticized in other public sector unions."
Quote from: Brewski on June 23, 2020, 08:49:18 AM
A Democratic pal sent me this article, "What Don't Most Liberals Realize?," which I thought was an interesting, thoughtful read. There is something to be said for not demonizing the other side. (With some exceptions, of course.)
https://www.quora.com/What-dont-most-liberals-realize/answer/Peter-Kruger?ch=1&share=95ddcb10&srid=iAmK&fbclid=IwAR2WcWhv1c1b14otTgELViInorqNZHa_aYB5TtQiFH9HXWVomTj_PVpE9Hg
--Bruce
I get this kind of mainstream classic divide. But doesn't it seem like the fringes have gotten way out of proportion?
Some primaries yielded surprises:
A 24-year-old novice beat a Trump-endorsed candidate for Mark Meadows's seat in Congress (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/24/madison-cawthorn-meadows-election/)
Trump is losing his grip on the Republican Party. It's hard to know what Mr Cawthorn stands for, though.
Kentucky Senate Democratic primary between McGrath and Booker to decide who challenges McConnell too close to call (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/kentucky-senate-primary-race-decide-who-challenges-mitch-mcconnell-too-n1231961)
Taking out Cocaine Mitch was supposed to be a top priority, but Dems can't even get their shit together taking him on. They poured tens of millions into Ms McGrath's campaign and yet an insurgent siphoned off all those votes. Hilarious.
Fortunately, AOC won handily, so Congress will still have a fiery democratic socialist and kick-ass mixologist (of almost Teddy Kennedy level competence) in its midst.
Of course, when it comes to the top job, Super-Creepy 46 is looking better and better:
Biden Takes Dominant Lead as Voters Reject Trump on Virus and Race (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/politics/trump-biden-poll-nyt-upshot-siena-college.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)
You go Joe!
Quote from: Dowder on June 23, 2020, 09:26:21 PM
Ironically enough, Qualified Immunity was a product of the Liberal Warren Court:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity)
If we get rid of QI and the legal protections for members of LE, how many would still want to be police officers with the much greater risk? Are we ok with a society that has less cops, castrated police departments and more potential crime? That article criticizes the various departments for pulling back enforcement after negative publicity but what else are they to do after being scrutinized and denigrated?
Did you actually read the article? Because it specifically says what I italicized there is not happening.
Quote from: Daverz on June 24, 2020, 04:24:57 AM
Some interesting research there, unfortunately in the service of union bashing: "This killing is largely driven by the same kinds of bureaucratic malfeasance and self-dealing that conservatives have criticized in other public sector unions."
The main reason it's hard to fire bad cops is that police unions fight hard to keep them on the force mo matter how bad they are. The refusal to back up Floyd's killers and those cops in Buffalo is highly unusual.
Same goes for all other public sector unions. Their goals are to protect their members and get them the highest compensation they can. They aren't there to help the public. The difference between public and private sector unions is that if I get lousy quality from Ford, I'll start buying GM or Toyota or Honda. If I have lousy quality from my local police, I don't have an alternative.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 06:07:53 AM
Yes, from the article:
Furthermore, a recent study found that crime tended to rise after high-profile killings by police offices. These increases were driven not by criminals getting more dangerous or police facing blowback, but by police unions responding to criticism by organizing "slowdowns," in which large numbers of police violated their oaths to protect the public and simply stopped doing as much police work. As a result, violent crime rose.
What I was referencing.
You said
QuoteThat article criticizes the various departments for pulling back enforcement after negative publicity
Police departments are not police unions. Officials telling officers not to patrol regularly is very different than police unions organizing a "blue flu". The article says the former did not happen, but the latter (or various equivalents) did.
Quote from: JBS on June 24, 2020, 05:47:17 AM
The main reason it's hard to fire bad cops is that police unions fight hard to keep them on the force mo matter how bad they are. The refusal to back up Floyd's killers and those cops in Buffalo is highly unusual.
Same goes for all other public sector unions. Their goals are to protect their members and get them the highest compensation they can. They aren't there to help the public. The difference between public and private sector unions is that if I get lousy quality from Ford, I'll start buying GM or Toyota or Honda. If I have lousy quality from my local police, I don't have an alternative.
Protecting members is an important function and a public good. In economic terms the loss of public employee unions will further weaken labor's ability to benchmark wages for all employees. This has been disastrous for workers and firms that sell to them, as wages paid circulate up to businesses. The same rules apply as they do everywhere, the "thrift paradox" policies hurt everyone, including the people who are supposed to benefit, like my capitalist self. It's stupid. We should want labor to get enough of the gains to keep up demand or the gap will continue to widen. The circuit produces optimal results when growth is favored for everyone. We shouldn't to trying to create weak links, as though the lost gains will be recovered by "deserving" others. Idling resources in a lower demand environment reduces total gains. Nobody wins, but some people lose more than others.
Quote from: drogulus on June 24, 2020, 07:32:59 AM
Protecting members is an important function and a public good. In economic terms the loss of public employee unions will further weaken labor's ability to benchmark wages for all employees. This has been disastrous for workers and firms that sell to them, as wages paid circulate up to businesses. The same rules apply as they do everywhere, the "thrift paradox" policies hurt everyone, including the people who are supposed to benefit, like my capitalist self. It's stupid. We should want labor to get enough of the gains to keep up demand or the gap will continue to widen. The circuit produces optimal results when growth is favored for everyone. We shouldn't to trying to create weak links, as though the lost gains will be recovered by "deserving" others. Idling resources in a lower demand environment reduces total gains. Nobody wins, but some people lose more than others.
You're ignoring the two big differences.
In the private sector employers don't run for office so unions / employees can't make campaign contributions to the people who negotiate with them over wages, benefits, and working conditions. Elected officials have an actual incentive to let public unions do what they want.
In the private sector if customer service is bad or prices too high because of labor costs, consumers can look for alternatives. In the public sector they can't.
Quote from: JBS on June 24, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
You're ignoring the two big differences.
In the private sector employers don't run for office so unions / employees can't make campaign contributions to the people who negotiate with them over wages, benefits, and working conditions. Elected officials have an actual incentive to let public unions do what they want.
In the private sector if customer service is bad or prices too high because of labor costs, consumers can look for alternatives. In the public sector they can't.
The level of public service is threatened by the same forces that wish to abolish labor rights for public employees. If governments want to raise the level of service they should require membership in a union as a condition of employment. Also, Repubs could influence union contracts if they supported labor more effectively, by which I mean at all. If Repubs want influence on labor decisions they should try less hard to make labor the enemy.
How Hegemony Ends
The Unraveling of American Power (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-06-09/how-hegemony-ends?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=fatoday&utm_campaign=How%20Hegemony%20Ends&utm_content=20200624&utm_term=FA%20Today%20-%20112017)
Quote from: Alexander Cooley and Daniel H. Nexon
But this time really is different...
A reinvigorated U.S. foreign policy apparatus should be able to exercise significant influence on international order even in the absence of global hegemony. But to succeed, Washington must recognize that the world no longer resembles the historically anomalous period of the 1990s and the first decade of this century. The unipolar moment has passed, and it isn't coming back.
One can only hope this time really is different.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 03:36:47 PM
Ok, blame the unions entirely if that helps. It might be true about them being behind the "blue flu" but I think it's terribly wrong to tell officers who are at higher risk due to a media maelstrom to go back into riskier neighborhoods with less precautions. I don't think every department will risk the lives of those involved when the risks are so much higher, either. Those that do will probably face much higher turnover. The reforms in the much touted Camden, NJ PD have lead to many officers leaving.
So you are claiming that it's necessary for police to brutalize and randomly kill people for reasons of police safety.
Very well.
White House ordered NIH to cancel coronavirus research funding, Fauci says (https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/white-house-ordered-nih-to-cancel-coronavirus-research-funding-fauci-says/)
The involvement of the White House is a new wrinkle in a story that has appalled and angered scientists. Since the grant was nixed in late April, scientists had speculated that politics and a conspiracy theory played a role in canceling funding for the research, which was in good scientific standing and seen as critical work. The grant, titled "Understanding the risk of bat coronavirus emergence," was originally funded by the NIH in 2014 and renewed for another five years in 2019 after receiving an outstanding peer-review score.
The research is run by EcoHealth Alliance Inc., a nonprofit based in New York, but it collaborates with a virologist at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) in China, who works with bat coronaviruses. The WIV became the center of a conspiracy theory that suggested that the pandemic coronavirus originated in or escaped from a lab at the institute."Eventually, we'll all know the shoddy truth of how a conspiracy theory pushed by this administration led @NIHDirector to block the only US research group still working in China to analyze
COVID origins," he wrote. "Thanks to this China can now do the research, we can't!"
Scientists, meanwhile, have roundly refuted claims that the WIV was the source of the new coronavirus, noting that natural spillover from animals is the most likely source.
In an April 18 comment to ScienceInsider, the WIV virologist working with EcoHealth— Shi Zhengli—also disputed the link, saying that "the closest progenitor of COVID-19 virus is still mysterious and it's definitely not from my lab or any other labs... It's a shame to make the science so complicated." It's best to block research to preserve the purity of our "we don't know anything about it" beliefs.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 03:46:13 PM
If that's how you view police work not much can be said. The hatred for LE is baffling for a law abiding citizen such as myself.
Respect for law enforcement requires that police respect the people they are supposed to be protecting. When they do, the results are much better. The advantage of shooting lots of people as a policing tactic is imaginary, and the same for choking people to death.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 03:46:13 PM
If that's how you view police work not much can be said. The hatred for LE is baffling for a law abiding citizen such as myself.
The implication of your prior post is that you think that keeping police from brutalizing the population and randomly killing people with little or no consequence would endanger their safety. If that's not what you think, then you need to find a better way of saying what you do think.
Dowder,
Have you ever been a member of a Union?
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 05:24:21 PM
Oh yeah, those unions are all about brutalizing and killing people. I'm sure that's written into the various contracts. No absurd generalizations on your part. ::)
I'm just pointing out the meaning of your words.
You claim the reforms if adopted would endanger LEOs.
The reforms are limited to stopping some forms of police brutality and stopping unnecessary use of lethal force.
Therefore you are claiming police must use brutality and unnecessary lethal force to protect themselves.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 07:20:58 PM
That's your spin on the issue, either you're for "reform" or brutality and murder.
It's not my spin. You can reform the police or you can let them go on brutalizing and killing. There's no third choice between them. Since you are against reform, you must be in favor of brutalizing and killing.
BTW, there are a lot of cases. They aren't isolated. They aren't blown out of proportion. If anything, they are underreported.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 07:40:08 PM
You appear hostile to the police in general spouting stuff like that. I know your excuse is the union but I think you have a deeper loathing for LE.
Of course, if the numbers don't support your claim well....conspiracy theories!
I have a loathing for brutality and unnecessary killing. That's why I am for reforming the police.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 08:12:45 PM
I guess the police have to die and society made inherently less safe to satisfy your anti-LE attitudes.
I know, I know: you'll say cops and criminals will hold hands and sing kumbaya as soon as the brutality stops and the social workers start doing things the cops currently do. ::)
That's the thing. The reforms won't make police less safe and won't make society less safe. In fact, they will make everyone safer.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 06:54:13 PM
Tell me why that matters?
Because I was a shop steward for over twenty years with the National Treasury Employees Union and the National Association of Government Employees and for three years I was a chapter president.
I was also a pension auditor and in during my career I audited several hundred pension plans.
My experiences with Unions appears to clash with your perceptions.
I just did not want to assume whether or not you had any experiences with unions.
Quote from: JBS on June 24, 2020, 08:18:34 PM
That's the thing. The reforms won't make police less safe and won't make society less safe. In fact, they will make everyone safer.
You just couldn't make up this stuff!! Absolutely priceless.
Quote from: Todd on June 24, 2020, 10:10:17 AM
How Hegemony Ends
The Unraveling of American Power (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-06-09/how-hegemony-ends?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=fatoday&utm_campaign=How%20Hegemony%20Ends&utm_content=20200624&utm_term=FA%20Today%20-%20112017)
One can only hope this time really is different.
No country or people can hope to prosper when they are so filled with self-loathing and hatred. Fact. (Oh, that's right; Dr. Thomas Sowell says 'the Left doesn't like facts because they find them emotionally unsatisfying".
Clue; when you have better people you get better leaders. (Not including totalitarian states.)
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 09:08:35 PM
What are my perceptions? You seem to assume a lot.
That is why I was asking.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 03:46:13 PM
If that's how you view police work not much can be said. The hatred for LE is baffling for a law abiding citizen such as myself.
Mysteriously, the word "white" got lost in that latter sentence. (Somehow I'm not surprised.)
As the Cornel West incident showed, you can be affluent, gracious and law-abiding till the cows come home, but if you happen to be black the cops are going to stop you.
You would not know that, because it's not in your interest to know.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 23, 2020, 01:19:48 PM
First I said WE ALL are crazy, including myself. I apologize for making you think that you are the crazy one.
Second, you started lecturing me as if I had no idea how the electoral college works or whether or not I am for it. For the record, I am for it.
I didn't mean to lecture you, although I see how it would come across that way.
It's just a topic that gets my gall because I think it distracts unnecessarily from the real problems, both with the candidates, the state of the electorate, and the more troubling aspects of the electoral system. Apologies.
In one of the least surprising pieces of political news of the year, black Americans say racism, policing top issues for November, favor Biden by huge margin, Post-Ipsos poll finds (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/black-americans-say-racism-policing-top-issues-for-november-favor-biden-by-huge-margin-post-ipsos-poll-finds/2020/06/24/9143b254-b645-11ea-aca5-ebb63d27e1ff_story.html)
Biden leads 92% to 5%, trumping HRC and Kerry percentage-wise, but trailing Barry. Dems just have to make sure to mobilize voters.
And with Senate Democrats killing the Republican police reform bill, and Republicans set to kill the Democrat police reform bill, race gets to be a high profile wedge issue all the way through November.
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 07:40:08 PM
Of course, if the numbers don't support your claim well....conspiracy theories!
That's downright funny, coming from a Trumpkin!
Just thought I would ask everyone to depersonalise the discussion. The you are this and you are that is the entrance to the oft seen slippery slope. Would yoU please try to stick to the issues and sidestep the personalities of those contributing.
Thanks,
Knight
Quote from: JBS on June 24, 2020, 08:18:34 PM
That's the thing. The reforms won't make police less safe and won't make society less safe. In fact, they will make everyone safer.
Especially given a President who orders police to pepper spray protesters. Not looters, protesters.
Had an hourlong talk yesterday with an old friend, a retired policeman in Florida. One parenthetical piece of information which struck me is, there is no unanimity in whether certain tools are considered "lethal weapons" among police in different localities it is not the case everywhere that police would fire pepper spray at ordinary citizens. In his career, my friend has seen fatalities from, e,g. rubber bullets and pepper spray. This certainly gauges some people who are okay with Bunker Boy releasing the Cossacks at LaFayette Square.
Conservatives are almost as idealistically delusional as liberals.
Check out this video from PragerU. 28k downvotes and 10k upvotes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvfHnZMcOY
It's trying to sell young men the idea of marriage. It fails miserably. Dude, this isn't the 1950s any more.
Pure idealism, unchecked by reality. Just about as delusional as "but we can make communism work this time!" ::)
Quote from: Dowder on June 24, 2020, 09:03:12 PM
If you say so.
What says different? Do you have a source for the claim that police brutality keeps people safe? Certainly the brutalized aren't safer. What about the police? Are they safer when they use brutality?
The default assumption before new evidence is considered should be that elevating the level of mutual hostility is unsafe, reducing it is safer.
My community doesn't have much brutality in it. There are people of many races here, though white people are the majority. I have the distinct impression, and it may not be entirely accurate, that my town doesn't want to have brutality inflicted on any portion of the people here, no matter what color they are. There are black joggers on my street. I hope I'm right that none of them have been choked for it.
The Conspiracy Theory side of the street:
https://www.youtube.com/v/cc4qgvXgLkc
The vitriol and the idiocy
.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 25, 2020, 11:25:27 AM
The Conspiracy Theory side of the street:
https://www.youtube.com/v/cc4qgvXgLkc
The vitriol and the idiocy
My sister is hard into this conspiracy theory. She posts on FB every day about it. She's an antivaxxer too.
Quote from: milk on June 25, 2020, 01:03:45 PM
My sister is hard into this conspiracy theory. She posts on FB every day about it. She's an antivaxxer too.
Ugh. Sorry, mate! I have siblings who voted for Trump, and (I expect) will again, but they are decidedly non-activist.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 25, 2020, 01:45:50 PM
Ugh. Sorry, mate! I have siblings who voted for Trump, and (I expect) will again, but they are decidedly non-activist.
Thanks. She tried hard to convert me and she's really emotionally committed to this stuff. I'm not super close to her but I'm a little worried about her alienating family and friends on FB. She posts the most ridiculous videos and links. She thinks masks are actually health hazards and part of a conspiracy to control us (or something like that). I keep telling her that I live in Japan where half the people have always worn masks. Somehow it doesn't get through.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 06:00:38 PM
Marriage, as an institution, has been around a long time and does work. Bad comparison, dude.
This isn't the 1950s any more... just read the comments. It used to work. But nowadays, if you are a man, be prepared to give away all of your freedom and power.
(of course, it can work for some dudes, but that's just survivor bias)
It's idealistic of the past in the same way that leftism is idealistic of the future. Both are incompatible with the present. Better to navigate in the present... idealism is for fiction, unless you are a billionaire that can actually change things.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 06:09:49 PM
Jeebus, the hyperbole here has got to stop. I heard on Sam Harris' podcast that there are about 10 million arrests or encounters between police and civilians every year but we're made to believe that a few isolated cases are the norm. If anything, we need media reform to prevent the kind of dishonest, sensational reporting that blows everything out of proportion and leaves cities in ruins, law abiding citizens at the mercy of thugs, businesses destroyed and the police handcuffed from doing their job.
I'm all for chokeholds if a suspect is resisting arrest and a threat to the officers. If you take an officer's taser and point it at him like that guy in Atlanta you deserve the consequences of your actions.
So because the police don't kill 9,999,000 people it's okay if they kill 1000?
Did it ever occur to you that police don't need to kill near as many people as they do? That they don't need to arrest as many as they do? Did it ever occur to you that "that guy in Atlanta" (his name was Brooks) didn't need to be shot? Did it ever occur to you that just because you don't see it in the news does not mean police act like thugs?
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 06:27:31 PM
Marriage isn't an experiment. It's a reflection of human nature. One man's castle may be another man's gulag, sure, and there are unhappy marriages. Yet, I've known plenty of folks who are happily married; in fact, I've known plenty of bachelors who were much happier after getting married. Purely anecdotal, I know, but there's a reason why the institution was created and has survived: it's perfectly natural, reflects a human desire to have intimacy and companionship and was the best bet at not just passing your genes along but raising them to adulthood.
The "modern" notion of living and dying alone is unnatural and not healthy, imo. Viewing children as a burden is another weird attitude I don't get. As a species do we want to go extinct?
Wow, have to disagree hard on literally everything. ;D
Us dudes are hardwired to want many different women, not just one. History shows that. Your own mind shows that. Marriage is very unnatural but possibly the best thing for society (maybe second to abundant good jobs).
If you aren't introvert then you have no idea...to each his own, but I have lived alone the last few years and it's freaking awesome. Just thinking of someone living in my space is irritating... but again, that point is very relative, and many people do need to live with someone else.
I have no idea how anyone wouldn't see kids as a burden, unless you are an African farmer or something. What was it, $200,000 to raise a single kid? Nah, I think I'll actually retire instead.
As for the species, lol, who cares? I won't be around to see the future anyways. Why should anyone care? I mean, it's fun to think about futuristic technologies but we'll never see it. If I even make it to the 2080s that'd be insane.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 06:47:01 PM
Some may be bad apples but that's life. You address it individually without this hysterical French Revolution style demand of restructuring government, the economy and society along some leftist ideology.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 06:09:49 PM
Jeebus, the hyperbole here has got to stop.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 06:47:01 PM
Yup, if they were a threat and put themselves in that situation. I'm sure you'll put a halo over the head of every dead criminal "murdered" by the police but I won't.
Yeah, he was a career criminal like that guy in Minnie. I won't second guess those in LE, either. Some may be bad apples but that's life. You address it individually without this hysterical French Revolution style demand of restructuring government, the economy and society along some leftist ideology.
So you don't care if cops act like thugs.
Sorry, the rest of us do.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 07:16:51 PM
Not all of us see the cops as thugs or share a hostile attitude towards LE.
Here's a data point that might suggest the hostile attitude is deserved.
QuoteStreetsblog recently reported that of the 440 tickets police issued to people for biking on the sidewalk in 2018 and 2019, 374 — or 86.4 percent — of those where race was listed went to Black and Hispanic New Yorkers. The wildly disproportionate stats followed another report showing that cops issued 99 percent of jaywalking tickets to Black and Hispanic people in the first quarter of this year.
From here
https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/06/25/campaign-to-remove-nypd-from-traffic-enforcement-gains-steam/
The fact is, a lot of people who are not criminals experience the police as a hostile force, not a friendly protective one. Step out of your bubble.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 07:12:20 PM
That's terrible reasoning. Why care about the environment, climate change or anything if you'll just be dead someday? Future generations shouldn't be screwed because of the selfish or myopic attitudes of today. I heard countries like Japan and South Korea will be extinct in 500 years or less if the birth rates remain the same. They're not just being childless but sexless. Talk about being introverted. That kind of celibacy used to be found among religious types but it's affecting secular culture.
You can care as much as you want, but on an individual level you can't change anything.
Japanese people are too busy for love. They barely even get vacations... South Korea is also way too hypercompetitive (probably hard to think about love when you are suicidal over exams).
Highly developed/late stage capitalism is highly incompatible with love and family. The current generation of Japanese have seen their dads overwork themselves like crazy. See your wife and family once a week, give your wife almost all of your money for her to decide how it's spent, maybe screw like twice a year... why even bother?
And my original thesis was that marriage is a bad idea for men in the US/Canada because... divorce. Basically.
Your view is a tradcon version of the blue pill, just in case you aren't aware of the labeling... liberals also have their own version of the blue pill.
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 07:16:51 PM
Not all of us see the cops as thugs or share a hostile attitude towards LE.
I think it's unlikely that any of us do. I want the best law enforcement I can get with the least brutality. These are not contradictory, and I don't know why think they are.
Democrats are not perfect. We have our share of nut jobs.
Just because our rhetoric is not perfect does it mean we are wrong 100% of the time.
Quote from: JBS on June 25, 2020, 06:35:46 PM
So because the police don't kill 9,999,000 people it's okay if they kill 1000?
If those 1000 killed are all colored, that makes a certain kind of American feel not bad at all.
Reviewing all of the rhetorical rationalizations that appear in this thread reminds of the relationship between the Babel fish and God:
"Oolon Colluphid used the Babel fish as the main theme of his best-selling book, Well That About Wraps It Up For God. More specifically, Colluphid uses the Babel fish as an argument for intelligent design (or - and there are some subtle differences here) in a version of the so-called teleological argument for God's existence. But Colluphid then goes further - using the existence of the Babel fish to try to prove that God does not exist.
The whole argument runs, roughly, as follows.
1. God refuses to prove that they exist because proof denies faith and without faith God is nothing.
2. Man then counters that the Babel fish is a dead giveaway because it could not have evolved by chance. So the fish proves that God exists - but hence also, by God's own reasoning (see 1) that God does not exist.
3. God says that they hadn't thought of that (hadn't thought of 2) and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
4. Man then remarks about how easy that was (and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing).
It should be noted that most leading theologians think that Colluphid's argument is "a load of dingo's kidneys."
Quote from: Dowder on June 25, 2020, 06:47:01 PM
Yup, if they were a threat and put themselves in that situation. I'm sure you'll put a halo over the head of every dead criminal "murdered" by the police but I won't.
Yeah, he was a career criminal like that guy in Minnie. I won't second guess those in LE, either. Some may be bad apples but that's life. You address it individually without this hysterical French Revolution style demand of restructuring government, the economy and society along some leftist ideology.
I think there' a distinction to be made in these cases. Call me crazy, but it seems obvious to me that these were entirely different situations. The guy in Atlanta needed to be arrested, he was drunk and behind the wheel of a car. He committed two felonies in what amounts to a death struggle for cops trying to subdue him. The cops tried to use their tasers first, which showed much restraint and professionalism. But the guy went after them in a very dangerous way and needed to be apprehended. He ran away and had to be pursued. They could not let him go. The cop who was accused of stepping on him, after he was shot, received a concussion during the struggle. The other cop shot him after he aimed the stolen taser. The DA who filed these charges is obviously trying to get re-elected. There's no way those charges make sense.
In the Minneapolis case, the cops had him subdued and this death was entirely gratuitous and unnecessary. It was murder. In the Atlanta case, it was reasonable and justified.
Quote from: JBS on June 25, 2020, 06:35:46 PM
So because the police don't kill 9,999,000 people it's okay if they kill 1000?
Did it ever occur to you that police don't need to kill near as many people as they do? That they don't need to arrest as many as they do? Did it ever occur to you that "that guy in Atlanta" (his name was Brooks) didn't need to be shot? Did it ever occur to you that just because you don't see it in the news does not mean police act like thugs?
The Atlanta guy gave the cops no choice. They couldn't let him run off after he committed two violent felonies - fighting with/resisting cops (one of them got a concussion) and grabbing the cop's taser. After he aimed something at them, what could they do? Even if there were a better choice, one can hardly hold them responsible in any criminally intentional way as they were fighting for their own lives on the ground.
As to police generally, I doubt good will come from social media-driven hysteria. There's not any strong evidence for racial motivation in police brutality, for racial killing by police, etc. I think cops are trained badly in the US and that cops are militarized but the causes are complex and certainly not settled. The hysteria of the moment says that everyone must subscribe to woke/BLM/intersectional ideology and there's a rush to enforce a discourse and stifle critical debate. I certainly won't risk the backlash I'd get by going on FB and even questioning whether there's a known racial element to the famous cases of police killings. One is just not allowed.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 03:25:29 AM
There's not any strong evidence for racial motivation in police brutality, for racial killing by police, etc.
Look at the statistics.
Quote from: Herman on June 25, 2020, 10:03:18 PM
If those 1000 killed are all colored, that makes a certain kind of American feel not bad at all.
And, feel that the police are pretty much doing their job.
Quote from: Herman on June 26, 2020, 04:04:39 AM
Look at the statistics.
I'm a Democrat and open-minded. In the past I simply accepted that America was institutionally racist. These days, I think it's more complicated than that.
Please show me any statistics that suggest black people are being disproportionally killed by police.
My guess is that African Americans are stopped more often in some places. On the other hand, I'm not sure there's any evidence that the biggest danger for people, especially blacks people, is cops. I think communities need police and poor neighborhoods, black and otherwise, need police more than most.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 04:40:29 AM
Please show me any statistics that suggest black people are being disproportionally killed by police.
That one's easy:
(https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5ecf84a49949bb0006af759f/960x0.jpg?fit=scale)
The motivation bit is the hard thing to come up with data on.
Quote from: Todd on June 26, 2020, 04:46:49 AM
That one's easy:
(https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5ecf84a49949bb0006af759f/960x0.jpg?fit=scale)
The motivation bit is the hard thing to come up with data on.
Yes, I've got to see what you're saying if there's a serious discussion based on something I brought up. I've just been listening to the "other side" lately, Glenn Loury and John McWhorter. I'm not putting this precisely enough perhaps but I am curious about what's the best way to understand this topic.
They're saying that this statistics don't show that racism is motivating cops to kill black people - not when controls aren't taken into account. I think they rely on studies like Fryer's. It seems Fryer found That there is bias but not in shootings.
This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities. On the most extreme use of force – officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings.https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399 (https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399)
Quote from: Herman on June 25, 2020, 10:03:18 PM
If those 1000 killed are all colored, that makes a certain kind of American feel not bad at all.
FTR
The number of people of any race killed in police shootings last year was almost exactly 1000. That's why I used it.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 04:40:29 AM
I'm a Democrat and open-minded. In the past I simply accepted that America was institutionally racist. These days, I think it's more complicated than that.
Please show me any statistics that suggest black people are being disproportionally killed by police.
My guess is that African Americans are stopped more often in some places. On the other hand, I'm not sure there's any evidence that the biggest danger for people, especially blacks people, is cops. I think communities need police and poor neighborhoods, black and otherwise, need police more than most.
Why would cops have to be the biggest danger? I think the point is cops are a bigger danger than they need to be because brutality is considered to be justified. Cops aren't supposed to shoot people in the back when they run away except under a limited set of circumstances that don't seem to apply to blacks.
Statistics are important facts. We should include them.
QuoteThey're saying that this statistics don't show that racism is motivating cops to kill black people
I glanced at the study and noted that police interactions were evaluated for differences in the rate of extreme violence used in all cases compared to particular groups. It may be beyond this kind of study to determine how so many blacks became subject to recorded interactions in the first place.
If you are a white jogger, or even drunk, or stoned, or a stoned jogger, one imagines that police may check on you but not arrest you. White people have to work a little harder to be subject to an interaction, to be a stat. Not only are you not shot, there's no record of your encounter.
If you're white you will be aware of this. You aren't scared of the police. That's no more of an unwarranted fantasy than the fear of police is for those who are fearful.
Quote from: drogulus on June 26, 2020, 06:41:40 AM
Why would cops have to be the biggest danger? I think the point is cops are a bigger danger than they need to be because brutality is considered to be justified. Cops aren't supposed to shoot people in the back when they run away except under a limited set of circumstances that don't seem to apply to blacks.
Statistics are important facts. We should include them.
I glanced at the study and noted that police interactions were evaluated for differences in the rate of extreme violence used in all cases compared to particular groups. It may be beyond this kind of study to determine how so many blacks became subject to recorded interactions in the first place.
If you are a white jogger, or even drunk, or stoned, or a stoned jogger, one imagines that police may check on you but not arrest you. White people have to work a little harder to be subject to an interaction, to be a stat. Not only are you not shot, there's no record of your encounter.
If you're white you will be aware of this. You aren't scared of the police. That's no more of an unwarranted fantasy than the fear of police is for those who are fearful.
"
If you're white you will be aware of this. You aren't scared of the police." A winner!
All I want is a police system of which Americans of color (
id est, All Americans) need not be afraid.
Speaking for all white people is not a good idea...
My friend got tased and also heard about a white guy in my former town getting shot and killed because they said they saw a gun...
In general avoiding police altogether is a good idea.
Also you can't get arrested for being stoned, only for possession...
Quote from: greg on June 26, 2020, 10:25:38 AM
Speaking for all white people is not a good idea...
My friend got tased and also heard about a white guy in my former town getting shot and killed because they said they saw a gun...
In general avoiding police altogether is a good idea.
Also you can't get arrested for being stoned, only for possession...
No, I'm good, thanks. Some people may have reason to fear the police even if they are white.
Quote from: greg on June 26, 2020, 10:25:38 AM
Speaking for all white people is not a good idea...
My friend got tased and also heard about a white guy in my former town getting shot and killed because they said they saw a gun...
In general avoiding police altogether is a good idea.
Also you can't get arrested for being stoned, only for possession...
Police shoot whites and kill them.
In fact, the odds are that any particular person killed by a cop will be white or Latino white.
But the odds that any individual black will be killed by a cop is higher than the odds that any particular white will be killed by a cop. Blacks are killed by cops in numbers that much higher than their percentage of the population.
Quote from: JBS on June 26, 2020, 10:37:03 AM
Police shoot whites and kill them.
In fact, the odds are that any particular person killed by a cop will be white or Latino white.
But the odds that any individual black will be killed by a cop is higher than the odds that any particular white will be killed by a cop. Blacks are killed by cops in numbers that much higher than their percentage of the population.
Yeah, I saw those stats long ago.
Closer to the root problem is the school to prison pipeline. People are more likely to resist arrest if they already have a record. Minority communities are probably targeted more for other reasons, resulting in more people with records... cops are just the legs of the spider. They are doing their jobs in rough places where people are more likely to have a criminal record and therefore more likely to resist arrest. Something more fishy going on with private prisons,etc. but I don't know much about that stuff. As usual, the evil people sit at the top watching the world destroy itself and cops that are actually good get demonized.
Quote from: JBS on June 26, 2020, 10:37:03 AM
Police shoot whites and kill them.
In fact, the odds are that any particular person killed by a cop will be white or Latino white.
But the odds that any individual black will be killed by a cop is higher than the odds that any particular white will be killed by a cop. Blacks are killed by cops in numbers that much higher than their percentage of the population.
Correctamundo. Quoting rates and stats is all well and good, but the fact is, you don't have to be some special category to get your ass shot by the police. All you have to do is be. Back in my life BCM (before classical music) I lived a bit more adventurously than I do now, and I have known people who got shot. They deserved it, mainly. But one of the things I learned was that it pays big dividends to respect the police. For whatever reasons, whether they are altruistic or purely selfish.
8)
'The corporate tax rate — I'm actually OK at 28%': Gary Cohn (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gary-cohn-the-corporate-tax-rate-im-actually-ok-at-28-190220151.html)
Wow, conservative "pro business" economists are as deep into howyougonnas as liberals are, like they're racing to be most dumb.
No, Gary a business tax isn't a pay for, no federal tax is. Spending is the pay for. You of all people should know that. And really, you do, when you say lower taxes are positive for the economy. Why are you taking it back?
Senators Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Bernie Sanders (D-VT) promised to raise taxes had either of them won the race to become the Democratic Party nominee and presidency. Presumptive nominee Joe Biden has proposed more modest tax increases but has yet to detail his plans.
You OK with that, Gary? Do you agree that taking more money from people leaves them with more money?
OK, Dems usually limit tax hikes to the top where it does some good by relieving the tax burden on lower incomes. My problem with that is how they confuse the tax side fiscal balance effects with taxing for revenue, something the federal government doesn't do.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 26, 2020, 10:13:04 AM
"If you're white you will be aware of this. You aren't scared of the police." A winner!
All I want is a police system of which Americans of color (id est, All Americans) need not be afraid.
+ 1
Quote from: drogulus on June 26, 2020, 06:41:40 AM
Why would cops have to be the biggest danger? I think the point is cops are a bigger danger than they need to be because brutality is considered to be justified. Cops aren't supposed to shoot people in the back when they run away except under a limited set of circumstances that don't seem to apply to blacks.
Statistics are important facts. We should include them.
I glanced at the study and noted that police interactions were evaluated for differences in the rate of extreme violence used in all cases compared to particular groups. It may be beyond this kind of study to determine how so many blacks became subject to recorded interactions in the first place.
If you are a white jogger, or even drunk, or stoned, or a stoned jogger, one imagines that police may check on you but not arrest you. White people have to work a little harder to be subject to an interaction, to be a stat. Not only are you not shot, there's no record of your encounter.
If you're white you will be aware of this. You aren't scared of the police. That's no more of an unwarranted fantasy than the fear of police is for those who are fearful.
Why? Because the reaction we're seeing accuses police of being racist murderers. It's not that it just says all police are, it says the system is built upon white supremacy.
Now, is that not what's being asserted? Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. Coming from the left, I always assumed it was true. Do you think it is?
As for the guy in Atlanta being shot in the back, cops are gonna shoot you if you fire anything at them. Especially after you gave one a concussion and tried to grab weapons off another. This is a traumatic experience for a cop, I imagine, it certainly doesn't seem like murder.
I think we're in a weird moment right now. Go look at the ideology of BLM on their website. Can we question this ideology? Now that it's been approved by Brown University, Amazon and CNN?
It's quite jarring to suddenly sound like a conservative; I'm just not for the identity ideologies of this woke left and I'm shocked at how social media really drives the direction of politics into a place of emotion untempered by rational discourse.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 03:25:29 AM
The Atlanta guy gave the cops no choice. They couldn't let him run off after he committed two violent felonies - fighting with/resisting cops (one of them got a concussion) and grabbing the cop's taser. After he aimed something at them, what could they do? Even if there were a better choice, one can hardly hold them responsible in any criminally intentional way as they were fighting for their own lives on the ground.
As to police generally, I doubt good will come from social media-driven hysteria. There's not any strong evidence for racial motivation in police brutality, for racial killing by police, etc. I think cops are trained badly in the US and that cops are militarized but the causes are complex and certainly not settled. The hysteria of the moment says that everyone must subscribe to woke/BLM/intersectional ideology and there's a rush to enforce a discourse and stifle critical debate. I certainly won't risk the backlash I'd get by going on FB and even questioning whether there's a known racial element to the famous cases of police killings. One is just not allowed.
The best choice points came earlier on. The officers could have issued a citation or summons for DUI, taken his keys, had his car booted, and called a cab or drove him a few blocks to his home. You did notice that they forced Brooks to operate the vehicle after they knew he was drunk, right? What was that about?
As for fighting for their lives: After Brooks ineptly fired the taser while running, it was no longer a viable weapon. It could not be used again. So when Brooks was shot in the back he was effectively unarmed, moving away from the officers, and neither officer was in danger. I too believe there are mitigating circumstances in this case, unlike the case of the callous murder of George Lloyd. In the heat of the moment, the officers might not have remembered that the taser had already been discharged twice and was no longer a threat. They had just come out of a dangerous situation, their adrenaline was pumping, and their training (NPR interviewed a training officer on these points) likely inclined them to regard the loss of a taser as a deadly threat. The danger is getting tased and then having your firearm taken. In this case, of course, Brooks no longer had a usable taser. Whether one could expect officers in this situation to have worked this out before reacting seems to be the critical question. I don't have an opinion on that and I don't think it's an easy question.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 12:47:15 PM
Why? Because the reaction we're seeing accuses police of being racist murderers. It's not that it just says all police are, it says the system is built upon white supremacy.
Now, is that not what's being asserted? Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. Coming from the left, I always assumed it was true. Do you think it is?
As for the guy in Atlanta being shot in the back, cops are gonna shoot you if you fire anything at them. Especially after you gave one a concussion and tried to grab weapons off another. This is a traumatic experience for a cop, I imagine, it certainly doesn't seem like murder.
I think we're in a weird moment right now. Go look at the ideology of BLM on their website. Can we question this ideology? Now that it's been approved by Brown University, Amazon and CNN?
It's quite jarring to suddenly sound like a conservative; I'm just not for the identity ideologies of this woke left and I'm shocked at how social media really drives the direction of politics into a place of emotion untempered by rational discourse.
I can understand how people can feel like they lost something. I don't feel like I've lost anything I'm entitled to have. Nor do I have to agree with anyone's idea of what justifies the reassessment of history that recognizes the role of white supremacy. I can do that myself while in general agreement with the changes that are happening.
I'll continue to interpret the goal as the recognition that racist murder by police should be ended, not to characterize police as racist murderers.
Quote from: BasilValentine on June 26, 2020, 01:20:51 PM
The best choice points came earlier on. The officers could have issued a citation or summons for DUI, taken his keys, had his car booted, and called a cab or drove him a few blocks to his home. You did notice that they forced Brooks to operate the vehicle after they knew he was drunk, right? What was that about?
As for fighting for their lives: After Brooks ineptly fired the taser while running, it was no longer a viable weapon. It could not be used again. So when Brooks was shot in the back he was effectively unarmed, moving away from the officers, and neither officer was in danger. I too believe there are mitigating circumstances in this case, unlike the case of the callous murder of George Lloyd. In the heat of the moment, the officers might not have remembered that the taser had already been discharged twice and was no longer a threat. They had just come out of a dangerous situation, their adrenaline was pumping, and their training (NPR interviewed a training officer on these points) likely inclined them to regard the loss of a taser as a deadly threat. The danger is getting tased and then having your firearm taken. In this case, of course, Brooks no longer had a usable taser. Whether one could expect officers in this situation to have worked this out before reacting seems to be the critical question. I don't have an opinion on that and I don't think it's an easy question.
yes, in traumatic moments, there's a kind of tunnel vision. From what I understand, it's normal for police to not realize how many bullets they fired.
And they were in a struggle on the ground, when he grabbed at their weapons and gave one a concussion. He ran with a weapon and turned. I don't know if the cop knew what was coming at him or not. This was a dangerous person, unlike those in some of the other incidents in question.
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 04:04:43 PM
Fact is, blacks (and hispanics) make up a disproportionate amount of crime in NYC. You can find the stats year by year in this link:
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/crime-enf.page (https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/crime-enf.page)
Your argument seems to be that because some POCs commit crimes, it's okay for LEOs to brutalize and kill POCs even if they are totally law abiding.
Quote from: JBS on June 26, 2020, 04:23:41 PM
Your argument seems to be that because some POCs commit crimes, it's okay for LEOs to brutalize and kill POCs even if they are totally law abiding.
Indeed. Has the appearance of selective vision.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 26, 2020, 04:25:34 PM
Indeed. Has the appearance of selective vision.
I had a different word in mind.
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 04:38:20 PM
Lol, no. Quit it with the brutalize talk. That is your attempt to end all arguments here. "Are you against 'reform'? Well, you must sanction brutality!" Um, no. Brutality is rare, so rare that only a few overblown media stories get attention among the 10 million arrests each year.
POC are disproportionately arrested and killed because they commit a disproportional amount of crime. The cops are supposed to go where the criminal activity is being committed, after all, and detain or prevent the suspects. You're basically asking for lawlessness and anarchy, which is what we've seen in the last month or so.
Brutality is actually an everyday event, and it happens to people who don't commit crimes. You don't hear about it because it's so common it doesn't get reported unless it's flagrant.
Police don't need to brutalize people while enforcing the law. Reform simply means to stop the police from brutalizing people. So yes, to oppose reform is to support brutality.
If one race of people increases the number of interactions with the police, they will increase the number of incidents where they are shot and killed, even if they are treated as fairly as other races. It's like when you are working as a cashier and interact with one asshole customer a day for a 5 hour shift, you know mathematically that you will interact with more assholes over the course of a week if you start working 8 hour shifts instead.
But the question "The question is why certain certain ethnic groups commit more crime than others in the US (leading to more police interactions)?"... that's not quite a fun question to discuss at all. ;D Just discussing the problem alone only leads to dark places, so yeah, good luck with that.
It always has something to do with relative poverty, as that seems to be the cause of violent societies in general.
btw "POC" is a useless term because it includes Asians/Indians, which I think make more money than white people on average, and I would definitely assume commit far less crime on average as well.
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 05:11:18 PM
If it was so common you'd probably hear more about it.
I don't think any PD or any dreaded police union actively supports or condones brutality. Individuals are the issue, and some will violate proper conduct and act unethically, abuse a maneuver like a chokehold, etc. A bad apple is a bad apple and every profession has them. Punish the bad actor. Adding more laws and regulations won't make it any easier for the police to do their job; a crooked or bad cop will most likely find ways to abuse his badge and authority regardless. As a libertarian conservative you should be aware of this reality.
Your naivete is touching.
Police abuse people constantly. A lot of the apples in the police barrel are bad ones. Police unions protect them.
So we can at least outlaw the most obvious abuses, limit union's ability to protect bad cops, make it easier to sue cops and police forces for abuse.
We can also stop allow police departments to buy military equipment and weapons that are more suitable to fighting ISIS than any street gang.
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 04:38:20 PM
POC are disproportionately arrested and killed because they commit a disproportional amount of crime. The cops are supposed to go where the criminal activity is being committed, after all, and detain or prevent the suspects. You're basically asking for lawlessness and anarchy, which is what we've seen in the last month or so.
You know that crime statistics are influenced by choices LEOs make about who to stop and search, right? Surely you've heard that blacks have been shown to be statistically less likely than whites to be carrying contraband in their cars, but they are consistently convicted of possession at higher rates. That this continues to happen proves that it is biased policing that produces the higher statistical crime rate for blacks with respect to this kind of offense. Have you thought about how many other areas of enforcement might be influenced by differential enforcement and bias?
Here's is a Stanford study on traffic stop/search statistics:
https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 06:46:29 PM
Hence why I said you loath LE. You cannot deny it now.
Yay for trial lawyers and criminals.
I think military equipment is needed in cities like Chicago and Baltimore.
I don't loathe LE. I loathe LEOs who act like thugs and abuse the powers of their badge. And there are a lot more of them than you think there are.
It's very simple.
Police can deal with crime without acting like thugs.
So we need to stop them from acting like thugs.
One can easily come up with bogus rationalizations to validate police behavior.
The bottom line is that we have been made aware of many people of color who have died as a result of police misconduct.
The actual number is probably much higher.
So what if most crimes are committed by minorities. Even Judge Dredd would not execute someone for passing counterfeit money.
Quote from: JBS on June 26, 2020, 05:46:11 PM
Your naivete is touching.
Police abuse people constantly. A lot of the apples in the police barrel are bad ones. Police unions protect them.
So we can at least outlaw the most obvious abuses, limit union's ability to protect bad cops, make it easier to sue cops and police forces for abuse.
We can also stop allow police departments to buy military equipment and weapons that are more suitable to fighting ISIS than any street gang.
I'm not necessarily against any of this. I think restorative justice and conflict resolution programs are successful too. I just don't agree to fold this into an unquestionable intersectional ideology. I think the drift of the larger discourse is troubling and I think social media gives us a false view of reality.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 26, 2020, 07:07:16 PM
One can easily come up with bogus rationalizations to validate police behavior.
The bottom line is that we have been made aware of many people of color who have died as a result of police misconduct.
The actual number is probably much higher.
So what if most crimes are committed by minorities. Even Judge Dredd would not execute someone for passing counterfeit money.
it's a crucial question to ask what the larger context is. Either police are killing black people more as a murderous expression of white supremacy and we need to rush to dismantle the police force or there's something less than that happening.
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 04:16:32 PM
Yes, we should be able to, as it seeks to completely reinterpret American History with bunk like the 1619 Project...
From what I've seen, black conservatives think this is white liberal paternalism - a narrative that robs black people of agency.
It's interesting to me how divided things are and how much the left has taken hold of the narrative. As others have pointed out, BLM is a brand now, just like anything sold during the Super Bowl.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 26, 2020, 07:07:16 PM
One can easily come up with bogus rationalizations to validate police behavior.
The bottom line is that we have been made aware of many people of color who have died as a result of police misconduct.
The actual number is probably much higher.
So what if most crimes are committed by minorities. Even Judge Dredd would not execute someone for passing counterfeit money.
Or selling untaxed cigarettes (New York City), or selling bootleg CD's (New Orleans), or riding in a car with his girlfriend (Minnesota). Or a thousand other things that pass for excuses (I feared for my life!!).
8)
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 07:49:41 PM
What's the percentage of bad cops then? You seem to know that many are deplorable human beings so enlighten me further.
By exposing them to criminals on the street who don't obey laws to begin with and later trial lawyers in court? Sounds like a recipe for stability and fairness.
How racist policing took over American cities, explained by a historian (https://www.vox.com/2020/6/6/21280643/police-brutality-violence-protests-racism-khalil-muhammad)
Quote from: Dowder on June 26, 2020, 07:43:04 PM
Geez, out of the tens of millions of arrests we've isolated three cases to make the police look as bad as possible.
Talk about bogus.
And your remarks are not bogus?
How many people have to die as a result of police misconduct?
We are only talking about the few incidents that have been recorded. It appears to most of us that the actual number is much more that just three out of whatever.
Quote from: drogulus on June 26, 2020, 08:33:57 PM
How racist policing took over American cities, explained by a historian (https://www.vox.com/2020/6/6/21280643/police-brutality-violence-protests-racism-khalil-muhammad)
That was in 1922.
It's almost 100 years later, and thousands of Americans are in the streets daily, protesting the same violence and racism that the Chicago commission documented. This is the very thing economists like Glenn Loury are challenging. So, is this or is this not a contentious notion that Muhammad is making? I think this conclusion is a kind of dogma nowadays. I'm not saying there's no truth to it. But I certainly do not think it's beyond question.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 08:48:22 PM
That was in 1922.
It's almost 100 years later, and thousands of Americans are in the streets daily, protesting the same violence and racism that the Chicago commission documented.
This is the very thing economists like Glenn Loury are challenging. So, is this or is this not a contentious notion that Muhammad is making? I think this conclusion is a kind of dogma nowadays. I'm not saying there's no truth to it. But I certainly do not think it's beyond question.
Other commissions came to the same conclusions. At the commission level there's no controversy. I can't explain the forgetting aspect. Maybe we can't do that any more.
Quote from: drogulus on June 26, 2020, 09:11:46 PM
Other commissions came to the same conclusions. At the commission level there's no controversy. I can't explain the forgetting aspect. Maybe we can't do that any more.
as far as I can see, the article is talking about 1922. This is the problem. He is saying now is the same. This is a very big stretch of a claim. Glenn Loury (a Brown University economist who comments on these issues from right of center), and others, say it's ridiculous to even compare our current situation to the 60s let alone 1922. Why should I begin by accepting his assertion?
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 09:27:31 PM
as far as I can see, the article is talking about 1922. This is the problem. He is saying now is the same. This is a very big stretch of a claim. Glenn Loury (a Brown University economist who comments on these issues from right of center), and others, say it's ridiculous to even compare our current situation to the 60s let alone 1922. Why should I begin by accepting his assertion?
That doesn't seem to be a stretch at all.
This report in 1922 should have been the death of systemic police racism and discrimination in America. It wasn't. Its recommendations were largely ignored.
And a decade later, Harlem breaks out into what is considered the first police riot, where African Americans believe that an Afro-Puerto Rican youth has been killed by the police. Turns out he hadn't been, but the rumor that he had leads to a series of attacks directed towards white businesses in Harlem and against the police. And eventually, that uprising leads to the Harlem riot report in 1935.
That report comes to the same conclusion, notes there needs to be accountability for police that need to be charged and booked as criminals when they engage in criminal activity. They call for citizen review boards and an end to stop and frisk, which they name in the report. And Mayor [Fiorello] La Guardia, the mayor of New York, shelves it, doesn't do anything with it, doesn't even share [it] with the public. The only reason it ever saw the light of day was because the black newspaper, the Amsterdam News, published it in serial form.
And a similar report is produced in 1943, and another report in 1968. They essentially all keep repeating the same problem.
Quote from: drogulus on June 26, 2020, 10:28:17 PM
That doesn't seem to be a stretch at all.
This report in 1922 should have been the death of systemic police racism and discrimination in America. It wasn't. Its recommendations were largely ignored.
And a decade later, Harlem breaks out into what is considered the first police riot, where African Americans believe that an Afro-Puerto Rican youth has been killed by the police. Turns out he hadn't been, but the rumor that he had leads to a series of attacks directed towards white businesses in Harlem and against the police. And eventually, that uprising leads to the Harlem riot report in 1935.
That report comes to the same conclusion, notes there needs to be accountability for police that need to be charged and booked as criminals when they engage in criminal activity. They call for citizen review boards and an end to stop and frisk, which they name in the report. And Mayor [Fiorello] La Guardia, the mayor of New York, shelves it, doesn't do anything with it, doesn't even share [it] with the public. The only reason it ever saw the light of day was because the black newspaper, the Amsterdam News, published it in serial form.
And a similar report is produced in 1943, and another report in 1968. They essentially all keep repeating the same problem.
if you're saying nothing has improved in America for the last 50 years - I think it's hard to believe. I'm not saying there aren't many problems or that racism doesn't exist. I just feel more and more agnostic on the question America's current situation. I'm also pessimistic about the possibility of debate and reason.
Social media drives the moment and amplifies every incident, aberrant or otherwise.
Muhhamed isn't very convincing in his thesis that what we're seeing is the same as 50 years ago.
Here is an interesting graphic.
Are US citizens - of whatever colour - as safe as the citizens of any of these other wealthy countries?
And of course there is an even bigger picture that plays into this: social inequality - poverty - crime rates - proliferation of fire arms.The more there is of any of that, the less safe you are in general, and even more so if you are one of the disadvantaged in any society. Of wealthy nations, the USA as the wealthiest of them all scores relatively high on all points.
(https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/policekillings_rates.webp)
A more comprehensive global list here:
List of killings by law enforcement officers by country (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country)
On this list the USA is nicely tucked in just below Burkina Faso and Saint Lucia and before Burundi and the Democratic Republic of Congo.
What an embarrassment for a highly developed and wealthy society as the USA....
Q
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 10:49:12 PM
if you're saying nothing has improved in America for the last 50 years - I think it's hard to believe. I'm not saying there aren't many problems or that racism doesn't exist. I just feel more and more agnostic on the question America's current situation. I'm also pessimistic about the possibility of debate and reason.
Social media drives the moment and amplifies every incident, aberrant or otherwise.
Muhhamed isn't very convincing in his thesis that what we're seeing is the same as 50 years ago.
The article is pointing out patterns of historical behavior. It's not saying there has been no progress in some areas. I'm not sure why you find this offensive.
Non-Americans must understand that it is a minority of Americans who support the Trump Movement. At the most only 30% believe that:
1. The police are not to blame.
2. The carona is fake.
We are not the monsters that it appears we are.
What is so sad is the in spite of the very informative graphs, we will have to listen to all sorts rationalizations supporting the police.
The key issues of the current right wing minority:
1. Everybody ought has to have a gun.
2. The universal solution to all problems is no government and no taxes.
3. If a person is poor it is because he is lazy and does not go to church.
4. Law and order.
5. Science that supports Darwin and climate change is bad.
There are few more goodies.
This minority has been dominating American politics for twenty-five years.
As a result:
1. We have a police that is our of control and makes a mockery of our American ideals.
2. A failed medical system that has killed over 100,000 of our countrymen.
3. A failed economy.
And like Trump they will refuse to acknowledge that their policies MAY have wreaked this great county of ours.
Quote from: Daverz on June 27, 2020, 01:39:42 AM
The article is pointing out patterns of historical behavior. It's not saying there has been no progress in some areas. I'm not sure why you find this offensive.
Here is the quote again:
"That was in 1922...It's almost 100 years later, and thousands of Americans are in the streets daily, protesting the same violence and racism that the Chicago commission documented."
I'm not offended by this article. I'm pointing out that there is disagreement over this kind of assertion.
Isn't interesting the way social media drives actions and discussions? Is it reasonable to ask if there is evidence of racial animus in these cases and if there's evidence that the violence of 2020 is the same as the racism and violence of 1922? Seriously, do you think it's reasonable to ask this question? This kind of conclusion is being prescribed the by presidents and boards of universities and branded by Amazon. I guess the boat has kind of sailed.
It's not just this issue these days. "Believe all women" is another irrational (social media) driving force of the same ilk.
I feel the need to keep pointing out that I'm voting Biden. It's not only the right who have this sort of question.
Quote from: JBS on June 26, 2020, 05:46:11 PM
Your naivete is touching.
It's pretty, too, to see how someone who is blind to a racist white president's illegal activities, is keen to grind POC under the heel of thug police.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 07:29:08 PM
I'm not necessarily against any of this. I think restorative justice and conflict resolution programs are successful too. I just don't agree to fold this into an unquestionable intersectional ideology. I think the drift of the larger discourse is troubling and I think social media gives us a false view of reality. it's a crucial question to ask what the larger context is. Either police are killing black people more as a murderous expression of white supremacy and we need to rush to dismantle the police force [...]
What about systemic reform, rather than "dismantling."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2020, 04:39:33 AM
What about systemic reform, rather than "dismantling."
I think reform is a good idea, yes. Ban the chokeholds maybe. There should be more deescalation and more coordination with social and medical services perhaps - like how they do it in England. All cops need to wear cameras and the cameras should always be accessible to the public. I think a bigger problem for society is probably the 3 strikes and the long prison sentences that do the opposite of rehabilitation. I don't feel qualified to say the causes of crime and disparities in the US but I'm worried that dogma and sensationalism are driving people's beliefs now. I'm inclined to think there's a combination of things and racism is a sliver of the problem. The US has all these increasing disparities in wealth. But I also think that not all, maybe not most, of the problems of black communities today are caused by today's white people or white supremacy though the root of some issues may indeed be traced back to problems of decades or centuries ago. This last sentence was very hard to write. The last part of that sentence is largely irrelevant.
Quote from: milk on June 26, 2020, 10:49:12 PM
if you're saying nothing has improved in America for the last 50 years - I think it's hard to believe. I'm not saying there aren't many problems or that racism doesn't exist. I just feel more and more agnostic on the question America's current situation. I'm also pessimistic about the possibility of debate and reason.
Social media drives the moment and amplifies every incident, aberrant or otherwise.
Muhhamed isn't very convincing in his thesis that what we're seeing is the same as 50 years ago.
The author discusses the history and notes what hasn't changed about how the police behave towards black people. That's not a thesis about nothing changing. It's evident to me that the author is correct about the "theory" of racialized policing. Behavior that persists for more than a century points towards an implicit doctrine of the kind the author outlines. If not his, than another very like it will explain the persistence of brutal behavior despite all of the studies and recommendations.
Quote from: milk on June 27, 2020, 06:30:39 AM
I think reform is a good idea, yes. Ban the chokeholds maybe. There should be more deescalation and more coordination with social and medical services perhaps - like how they do it in England. All cops need to wear cameras and the cameras should always be accessible to the public. I think a bigger problem for society is probably the 3 strikes and the long prison sentences that do the opposite of rehabilitation. I don't feel qualified to say the causes of crime and disparities in the US but I'm worried that dogma and sensationalism are driving people's beliefs now. I'm inclined to think there's a combination of things and racism is a sliver of the problem. The US has all these increasing disparities in wealth. But I also think that not all, maybe not most, of the problems of black communities today are caused by today's white people or white supremacy though the root of some issues may indeed be traced back to problems of decades or centuries ago. This last sentence was very hard to write. The last part of that sentence is largely irrelevant.
I think it is unquestionably so that systemic and situational racism has done a massive amount to getting African Americans a - whatever the opposite of a "head start" is. Even if we didn't have any racism at all now, we would still find the economic and social discrepancies to run through the society... and fairly neatly along color-lines. And even someone who wants to argue that today's society isn't particularly -- much less overwhelmingly or inherently -- racist, would have to admit that poor people have a tougher lot and draw the short end of the stick on so many issues. And are being prejudiced against. And if economic and social prejudice are "neatly" delineated along color lines...
Who's going to distinguish (or care to) between bigotry along racial lines and outright racism. Or economic/social disenfranchisement along racial lines and systemic racism. I tend to think it is probably to distinguish. Not to make us feel better about ourselves (oh, we're not racist, after all), but because I think the solutions to these very similar looking problems is different and we are doing everyone a disservice if we only look at it through the prism of the moral and righteous cause de jour... rather than as practical and result-oriented as we can.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 27, 2020, 09:12:49 AM
I think it is unquestionably so that systemic and situational racism has done a massive amount to getting African Americans a - whatever the opposite of a "head start" is. Even if we didn't have any racism at all now, we would still find the economic and social discrepancies to run through the society... and fairly neatly along color-lines. And even someone who wants to argue that today's society isn't particularly -- much less overwhelmingly or inherently -- racist, would have to admit that poor people have a tougher lot and draw the short end of the stick on so many issues. And are being prejudiced against. And if economic and social prejudice are "neatly" delineated along color lines...
Who's going to distinguish (or care to) between bigotry along racial lines and outright racism. Or economic/social disenfranchisement along racial lines and systemic racism. I tend to think it is probably to distinguish. Not to make us feel better about ourselves (oh, we're not racist, after all), but because I think the solutions to these very similar looking problems is different and we are doing everyone a disservice if we only look at it through the prism of the moral and righteous cause de jour... rather than as practical and result-oriented as we can.
We should also consider alternative theories that can explain the historical record. Denial of the evidence isn't much of a theory to consider. Historians agree on the history of US racism far more than they disagree. For example, slavery, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, discrimination in housing and employment, and the record of police brutality are not controversial. They are all well documented.
If conservatives don't want to hand the issue off to people they think are leftists, they will need to be at least as thorough and inclusive as the historians and social scientists they criticize.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 27, 2020, 01:57:18 AM
The key issues of the current right wing minority:
1. Everybody ought has to have a gun.
2. The universal solution to all problems is no government and no taxes.
3. If a person is poor it is because he is lazy and does not go to church.
4. Law and order.
5. Science that supports Darwin and climate change is bad.
I tried watching a left-wing type video on social justice ideology. Similar exaggerations were said. These are pretty much the most extreme examples, not the norm. Do people on the left even talk to people on the right?
In the video the guy interchangeably used the term "fascist" with "conservative," as if they are the same thing. Like I've been saying for years, no room for nuance, just tribalism. We're nothing but members of a tribe, not individuals after all, everyone on one side thinks a like, and it's the extreme opposite of the other side, so they don't deserve to have the future. ::)
Quote from: Que on June 27, 2020, 12:37:38 AM
Here is an interesting graphic.
Are US citizens - of whatever colour - as safe as the citizens of any of these other wealthy countries?
And of course there is an even bigger picture that plays into this: social inequality - poverty - crime rates - proliferation of fire arms.The more there is of any of that, the less safe you are in general, and even more so if you are one of the disadvantaged in any society. Of wealthy nations, the USA as the wealthiest of them all scores relatively high on all points.
(https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/policekillings_rates.webp)
The more crime, the more police violence because of the more interactions between police and citizens.
Japan is safer because poverty/homelessness is extremely rare. There's no places that are even actually dangerous. In the US homelessness is rampant, to say the least.
Guns could be a factor, maybe, I wouldn't rule it out. Probably doesn't help. But the economic factor and social factors, like lack of social cohesion in the US vs. how socially cohesive Japan is, are almost definitely the biggest factors.
Clearly the big lesson of 2020 - one could call it Vision 2020 - is that life is best on big islands*.
New Zealand, Iceland, Japan, those are the good places.
* the UK is not an island. Ireland is.
Quote from: greg on June 27, 2020, 09:53:32 AM
Guns could be a factor, maybe, I wouldn't rule it out. Probably doesn't help. But the economic factor and social factors, like lack of social cohesion in the US vs. how socially cohesive Japan is, are almost definitely the biggest factors.
I don't disagree, and I think the brutal behavior of the police is consistent with other factors. Racism is the opposite of social cohesion. They are not alternatives. As for guns, they play the same role they always have. These are not disconnected phenomena.
Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson's Name From School (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/27/nyregion/princeton-university-woodrow-wilson.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20200627&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=cta®i_id=117609972&segment_id=32040&user_id=d7164096d33ce50132acba6c685611eb)
Next stop, FDR.
Quote from: Herman on June 27, 2020, 09:59:03 AM
Clearly the big lesson of 2020 - one could call it Vision 2020 - is that life is best on big islands*.
New Zealand, Iceland, Japan, those are the good places.
* the UK is not an island. Ireland is.
For real.
Quote from: drogulus on June 27, 2020, 10:21:17 AM
I don't disagree, and I think the brutal behavior of the police is consistent with other factors. Racism is the opposite of social cohesion. They are not alternatives. As for guns, they play the same role they always have. These are not disconnected phenomena.
More integration might be the answer, it's just how do we get there? Segregation ended so many decades ago, yet there are still so many black communities.
When you have minority communities that clump up together next to other communities that are doing well off, there is always going to be a comparison that ends up negative. The reason of the difference will be debated by both sides endlessly and nothing will be done.
There's bad attitudes from different people. Some black people don't want to live next to white people because they don't like them. And then some white people don't want black people to live next to them for the same reason. Not sure how much that is a factor, but that is one thing that really doesn't help.
I think racism and tendency of some cops to be more brutal towards minorities could be reduced with more integration, because if that cop grew up in a 90% white community, they just might not look at the black person they are trying to arrest in the same way than if they grew up in a more diverse area.
I realize that this anecdotal but the following is based on my personnel odyssey concerning racism.
I grew up in a very segregated environment. As a child I grew up in Euclid, Ohio and Midland, Michigan. My father worked for Dow Corning and their headquarters is in Midland. In 1961 he was transferred to Greensboro, NC (Dow Corning had a plant there). When we moved to North Carolina it was still a very segregated society. We even had colored payphones. Even in North Carolina I had sparse interactions with black people.
When I was in the Army I started to really interact with black people. Back then the integrated armed services was one of the few institutions were a black person could get ahead. Our drill sergeant was a tremendous leader and he used his leadership skills to train us instead of yelling at us all the time like Full Metal Jacket. He lived in the barracks and interacted with us after hours. He is one of the finest men I have ever worked for.
My oldest black friend is Dingwall Fleury. He is the conductor of the McLean Symphony. I have known and work with this gentleman for forty years.
I worked as a pension auditor for twenty-nine years with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. I have worked with and for many blacks. One of the best supervisors I had was a black women.
In my case working with blacks has made my aware of my latent racisms and hopefully purged it from me.
I would like to relate one incident that occurred while I was with the 75th Army Band. We frequently did non-military gigs. Once we performed a gig where we were requested to play "Dixie". We got out of doing it but I remember the pain in the eyes of my black fellow musicians at the thought of having to perform this song. To this day I do everything in my power to avoid playing "Dixie" out of respect to them.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 27, 2020, 11:15:48 AM
In my case working with blacks has made my aware of my latent racisms and hopefully purged it from me.
That's what I'm talking about... more integration is only a good thing.
I probably have a lack of understanding about heavily homogeneous communities since I grew up in a very diverse area... friends were white/black/hispanic/asian, and quite a few of each, so I didn't really care about stuff like that. It was just "whatever," I never gave much thought at all about how people looked...
Identity politics is just alien to me. I wish people would stop obsessing over it... it starts to put thoughts in my head that don't belong... from living a lifetime where race is not really that important, to going to where people saying you should obsess about it is like going from being mentally free to being trapped in a box- that box being labeled as whatever people want to label you.
Quote from: JBS on June 26, 2020, 04:52:43 PM
Brutality is actually an everyday event, and it happens to people who don't commit crimes. You don't hear about it because it's so common it doesn't get reported unless it's flagrant.
Police don't need to brutalize people while enforcing the law. Reform simply means to stop the police from brutalizing people. So yes, to oppose reform is to support brutality.
JBS and Dowder,
Case in point: Do you know what happened to the former top 4 men's tennis player James Blake not all that long ago--a couple of years ago? https://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-releases-video-cop-tackling-james-blake-mistaken/story?id=33687388
https://www.colorlines.com/articles/read-james-blakes-response-punishment-nypd-cop-who-assaulted-him
PD
Quote from: greg on June 27, 2020, 11:28:53 AM
Identity politics is just alien to me. I wish people would stop obsessing over it... it starts to put thoughts in my head that don't belong... from living a lifetime where race is not really that important, to going to where people saying you should obsess about it is like going from being mentally free to being trapped in a box- that box being labeled as whatever people want to label you.
I don't think you should obsess about it. I don't, and everyone should be exactly like me or I'll call the police on them.
Orange County Democrats condemn 'racist' comments by John Wayne, call for airport to drop his name (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-27/orange-county-democrats-condemn-racist-comments-by-john-wayne-call-for-airport-to-drop-his-name)
No, not The Duke!
Why not get rid of all names of places named after people to be on the safe side? Just use a number instead or a combination of a number and an innocuous name. (Or should "Orange County" be problematic because Orange man bad?)
e.g. Washington State -> Olympic state; Washington, D.C. -> Capital, D.C.; San Francisco -> Golden Gate City, Louisiana -> Dead French King state... and so on.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 27, 2020, 11:15:48 AM
I realize that this anecdotal but the following is based on my personnel odyssey concerning racism.
I grew up in a very segregated environment. As a child I grew up in Euclid, Ohio and Midland, Michigan. My father worked for Dow Corning and their headquarters is in Midland. In 1961 he was transferred to Greensboro, NC (Dow Corning had a plant there). When we moved to North Carolina it was still a very segregated society. We even had colored payphones. Even in North Carolina I had sparse interactions with black people.
When I was in the Army I started to really interact with black people. Back then the integrated armed services was one of the few institutions were a black person could get ahead. Our drill sergeant was a tremendous leader and he used his leadership skills to train us instead of yelling at us all the time like Full Metal Jacket. He lived in the barracks and interacted with us after hours. He is one of the finest men I have ever worked for.
My oldest black friend is Dingwall Fleury. He is the conductor of the McLean Symphony. I have known and work with this gentleman for forty years.
I worked as a pension auditor for twenty-nine years with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. I have worked with and for many blacks. One of the best supervisors I had was a black women.
In my case working with blacks has made my aware of my latent racisms and hopefully purged it from me.
I would like to relate one incident that occurred while I was with the 75th Army Band. We frequently did non-military gigs. Once we performed a gig where we were requested to play "Dixie". We got out of doing it but I remember the pain in the eyes of my black fellow musicians at the thought of having to perform this song. To this day I do everything in my power to avoid playing "Dixie" out of respect to them.
Thank you for sharing this story.
--Bruce
Quote from: Jo498 on June 27, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
Why not get rid of all names of places named after people to be on the safe side? Just use a number instead or a combination of a number and an innocuous name. (Or should "Orange County" be problematic because Orange man bad?)
e.g. Washington State -> Olympic state; Washington, D.C. -> Capital, D.C.; San Francisco -> Golden Gate City, Louisiana -> Dead French King state... and so on.
I especially like Dead French King.
Someone just sent me this:
"The hospital opened in Lakeville in 1860 as the Connecticut School for Imbeciles at Lakeville. Its name was changed to the Connecticut Training School for the Feebleminded at Lakeville in 1915. Two years later, it merged with the Connecticut Colony for Epileptics (founded at Mansfield in 1910) and acquired its present name." Mansfield Training School and Hospital is the (politically) correct name.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 27, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
Why not get rid of all names of places named after people to be on the safe side? Just use a number instead or a combination of a number and an innocuous name. (Or should "Orange County" be problematic because Orange man bad?)
e.g. Washington State -> Olympic state; Washington, D.C. -> Capital, D.C.; San Francisco -> Golden Gate City, Louisiana -> Dead French King state... and so on.
This is not a bad idea, but your alternative names are still problematic. The word "olympic" recalls Ancient Greece. That is, it recalls old, dead white people. It must go. Clearly, "Washington" must go, but DC is actually much,
much worse. It derives from Columbus, the most sinister genocidal maniac in all of human history. His name cannot be expunged from history quickly enough or thoroughly enough. Gates are meant to exclude, so that word cannot be used. And surely, the use of the word "king" is problematic, as is reference to France, another enclave of white people. Letters and numbers are the way to go. Maybe something like THX 1138.
Quote from: Todd on June 27, 2020, 01:58:52 PM
This is not a bad idea, but your alternative names are still problematic. The word "olympic" recalls Ancient Greece. That is, it recalls old, dead white people. It must go. Clearly, "Washington" must go, but DC is actually much, much worse. It derives from Columbus, the most sinister genocidal maniac in all of human history. His name cannot be expunged from history quickly enough or thoroughly enough. Gates are meant to exclude, so that word cannot be used. And surely, the use of the word "king" is problematic, as is reference to France, another enclave of white people. Letters and numbers are the way to go. Maybe something like THX 1138.
Numbers are safe since they are Arabic.
Letters are not safe because they are Roman. So we can only use numbers. Actually, it would be safe if every name were converted to something like a bar code.
So, I live on "473847329473892471" street should be non-offensive. And maybe do the same with names as well. We can just use our social security numbers in place of our names, since names have a reference to history as well.
Speaking of genocide, I feel like non-whites and non-Asians are underrepresented. Columbus and Genghis Khan could be on the list for non-dictators, maybe?
(https://www.earthlymission.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/which_dictator_killed_the_most_people_2-scaled.jpg)
Quote from: drogulus on June 27, 2020, 01:22:19 PM
I especially like Dead French King.
Are we sure there isn't some place out West named Dead French King Gap or similar? Those 19th Century settlers could sometimes be pretty sardonic. Not every place needs to be named after some traitor, slaver, genocidier, or strike breaker.
EDIT: I forgot the imperialists... and the rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists.
Quote from: greg on June 27, 2020, 11:28:53 AM
That's what I'm talking about... more integration is only a good thing.
I probably have a lack of understanding about heavily homogeneous communities since I grew up in a very diverse area... friends were white/black/hispanic/asian, and quite a few of each, so I didn't really care about stuff like that. It was just "whatever," I never gave much thought at all about how people looked...
Identity politics is just alien to me. I wish people would stop obsessing over it... it starts to put thoughts in my head that don't belong... from living a lifetime where race is not really that important, to going to where people saying you should obsess about it is like going from being mentally free to being trapped in a box- that box being labeled as whatever people want to label you.
I imagine that to a fish the concepts of wet and dry are pretty alien.
Quote from: greg on June 27, 2020, 11:28:53 AM
That's what I'm talking about... more integration is only a good thing.
I probably have a lack of understanding about heavily homogeneous communities since I grew up in a very diverse area... friends were white/black/hispanic/asian, and quite a few of each, so I didn't really care about stuff like that. It was just "whatever," I never gave much thought at all about how people looked...
Identity politics is just alien to me. I wish people would stop obsessing over it... it starts to put thoughts in my head that don't belong... from living a lifetime where race is not really that important, to going to where people saying you should obsess about it is like going from being mentally free to being trapped in a box- that box being labeled as whatever people want to label you.
I was reading an advice column from a progressive site that popped up in my feed.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/06/colorblind-parenting-race-care-and-feeding.html (https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/06/colorblind-parenting-race-care-and-feeding.html)
This is a mom's concern that her son said he doesn't care about race for filling out his college roommate request form.
"But one of our sons mentioned recently how irritated he is by the form he has to fill out regarding a college roommate. He has to specify his race, and all of the profiles of potential roommates he views also include race. He says all he cares about is if they are male or female and what their interests are—he doesn't care about race."So, the problem here is?
"With everything going on in the U.S. now, I'm doing more reading on racism, and if I'm understanding correctly, not caring about race is almost as bad as focusing only on race." And the advice?
"Not caring about or noticing race is a privilege reserved for people who are white."
"As the sociologist Megan R. Underhill, who studies race and family, has said, 'White people aren't 'outside' of race—they're at the top of the racial hierarchy.'"It's not that I don't understand why they are thinking about it this way but you can probably guess what the criticism of this type of thinking is going to be. I just don't go along anymore with this. Is this patronizing white liberal guilt? Is this King's dream for America?
To me, this is at least questionable but I fear it's become a kind of ideological dogma.
re statues:
I know its not exactly comparing apples with apples, but: when the former communist states took down statues of leaders and political figures did anyone say they were "denying their own history" or similar?
Quote from: milk on June 27, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
"With everything going on in the U.S. now, I'm doing more reading on racism, and if I'm understanding correctly, not caring about race is almost as bad as focusing only on race."
And the advice?
Yeah, this is the problem. They want to drag other people into their world of conflict. I don't want any part in it, either.
Quote from: milk on June 27, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
I just don't go along anymore with this. Is this patronizing white liberal guilt? Is this King's dream for America?
To me, this is at least questionable but I fear it's become a kind of ideological dogma.
It's white savior complex, masked as virtue. Extremely patronizing to other races. The ideology literally says (as you mentioned in your post) that white people are on top... unacceptable.
You know what I like to see? Minority owned business, where dependence on white people (or whatever the majority race in the area happens to be) is minimized or non-existent.
Quote from: greg on June 27, 2020, 04:36:03 PM
Yeah, this is the problem. They want to drag other people into their world of conflict. I don't want any part in it, either.
It's white savior complex, masked as virtue. Extremely patronizing to other races. The ideology literally says (as you mentioned in your post) that white people are on top... unacceptable.
You know what I like to see? Minority owned business, where dependence on white people (or whatever the majority race in the area happens to be) is minimized or non-existent.
Not all of us are guilty of this. As a matter of fact none of my Democratic friends think like this.
Now I do have some conservative friends who think I think this way.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 27, 2020, 05:09:17 PM
Not all of us are guilty of this. As a matter of fact none of my Democratic friends think like this.
Now I do have some conservative friends who think I think this way.
You have to make a distinction between the people who the media (including social media) focuses on and regular voters who media ignores. The former are ideologues, and want people to think they dominate the conversation. For its own purposes the GOP abets them because thinking Democrats are radical helps them.
I saw a thing going round Twitter yesterday that encapsulates the idea: Biden is paying attention to real voters, and ignoring Twitter.
Quote from: Daverz on June 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
EDIT: I forgot the imperialists... and the rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists.
God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty-dollar whore... ;)
8)
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 27, 2020, 04:00:04 PM
re statues:
I know its not exactly comparing apples with apples, but: when the former communist states took down statues of leaders and political figures did anyone say they were "denying their own history" or similar?
The short answer is, it depends on the country. In Russia for instance, they took down a lot of Lenin statues, but left a lot of them in place (as well as Lenin's embalmed corpse in Red Square). Why? Probably because there's still a rather large "Leninist" constituency in modern Russia, and the authorities think it's best not to aggravate them. So Lenin's not going anywhere anytime soon.
In Ukraine, taking down Lenin statues is often seen by local Russian-Ukrainians and Eastern Ukrainians as an attack specifically on
them, as a nationality/ethnicity. Even people who don't like Lenin perceive it that way. It's an issue which is independent of communist ideology.
Me, I don't like Lenin, but seeing him here and there in Moscow didn't bother me too much - simply because he was a major part of Russian history, and it wouldn't make sense for Moscow to pretend he never existed.
Quote from: Daverz on June 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
Are we sure there isn't some place out West named Dead French King Gap or similar? Those 19th Century settlers could sometimes be pretty sardonic. Not every place needs to be named after some traitor, slaver, genocidier, or strike breaker.
EDIT: I forgot the imperialists... and the rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists.
It's not up to me. I'd put up statues of animals and philosophers, and maybe gods or animal gods.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 27, 2020, 05:09:17 PM
Not all of us are guilty of this. As a matter of fact none of my Democratic friends think like this.
That's true, it depends on the person. Not everyone thinks this way. It's just a way of thinking that I've seen, and I've also seen at least one non-white comedian joke about the type of liberal who is a little
too nice to them where it makes them feel uncomfortable. Liberals don't all think this way, some are definitely opposed to it, it's just the ones heavily into identity politics that act like that.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 27, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
Why not get rid of all names of places named after people to be on the safe side? Just use a number instead or a combination of a number and an innocuous name. (Or should "Orange County" be problematic because Orange man bad?)
e.g. Washington State -> Olympic state; Washington, D.C. -> Capital, D.C.; San Francisco -> Golden Gate City, Louisiana -> Dead French King state... and so on.
Ask the Native Americans what these places are called.
Quote from: Dowder on June 27, 2020, 05:55:08 PMLBJ said the N word privately.
Not just privately, not when he was younger.
FDR dedicated statues of evil men. He even called Robert E Lee "one of the greatest American Christians and one of our greatest American gentlemen". Plus FDR committed a racist war crime - ethnic cleansing under current international law - an action literally as reprehensible as Andrew Jackson signing the Indian Removal Act. Simply unacceptable. Statues of the tyrant must go.
Locally, a couple weeks ago, we got to see this story: Pioneer statues toppled amid protests at University of Oregon (https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/06/pioneer-statues-toppled-amid-protests-at-university-of-oregon.html). It only makes sense.
More recently, a statue of Hans Christian Heg was torn down in Wisconsin. (https://journaltimes.com/news/local/col-hans-christian-heg-statue-torn-down-in-madison-honors-a-former-racine-resident/article_4994731d-f4a0-5043-8806-5f9753521990.html) He was an abolitionist who died in battle. He was not pure enough for modern leftist thugs. Statues of Thaddeus Stevens will not be safe. Modern leftist thugs are the new conscience of the Democrat Party and non-American fellow travelers. We are witnessing
justice in action.
It does make one wonder what type of (justified) price Emmanuel Macron will pay for his racism and state sponsored terrorism: Macron says France won't remove statues, erase history (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-macron-stat/macron-says-france-wont-remove-statues-erase-history-idUSKBN23L0QP). Outrageous! The French have a precedent for dealing with out of touch monarchs.
We can reassess history with or without statues. I see them as epiphenomenal. When the fever subsides we'll find that it's not so controversial that the history of racism and other isms are represented more widely. Then it will be less of a shock to people to find out why the police act like an occupying army in some neighborhoods and not others.
Quote from: Dowder on June 27, 2020, 07:27:58 PM
Like the person in this video?
https://twitter.com/taggartrearden/status/1276936203745492992?s=21 (https://twitter.com/taggartrearden/status/1276936203745492992?s=21)
It was love at first sight. Seriously, this kind of theater is for your eyes, not mine.
Quote from: Dowder on June 28, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
Wake up and smell the wokeness or suffer the violent consequences. I know in your neighborhood everyone is dreamy, peacefully protesting them baaaaaad cops but in most of America it's not so peaceful and just muttering the simple truth that "All Lives Matter" is tantamount to heresy. I could link more videos but you'll just call it theater, a kind of horror that you want to ignore at all costs because no one on your side is like that.
Maybe if more people knew how radical some of BLM and Antifa are they wouldn't support their terrorism.
"All lives matter" has become a euphemism whose real meaning is "Black lives don't matter".
About the only people who support Antifa already belong to Antifa. And while BLM may have a hard Left element in its organizations, it's a radical movement only if you.think "Black lives don't matter".
Quote from: Dowder on June 28, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
Wake up and smell the wokeness or suffer the violent consequences. I know in your neighborhood everyone is dreamy, peacefully protesting them baaaaaad cops but in most of America it's not so peaceful and just muttering the simple truth that "All Lives Matter" is tantamount to heresy. I could link more videos but you'll just call it theater, a kind of horror that you want to ignore at all costs because no one on your side is like that.
Maybe if more people knew how radical some of BLM and Antifa are they wouldn't support their terrorism.
Just a couple of points before moving on:
'All lives matter' is nothing more than a meaningless statement meant to take attention from the fact that it is black people in general who are getting their asses shot for being black. It means nothing, which is exactly what it is intended to mean. Polish Lives Matter, or Italian Lives Matter: certainly they do, and as soon as the power of the state is directed towards killing Polish and Italian immigrants (unlikely for now, since they are mostly white), then statements like that could come into general use.
'Antifa' doesn't exist, OK? It is a construct of groups like QAnon, who have created it as the bogeyman of the Deep State, something else which doesn't exist. You will never see 'antifa' captured or defeated, because it doesn't exist. There is no organization, no manifesto, no leader, nothing. I would explain it more clearly but since it doesn't exist, that's rather difficult.
Are there people who believe that the extreme Right needs to be fought against? Hell yes! Have they formed together into a group which could only be described as a Left Wing militia, the equivalent of the 3 Percenters, Arizona Border Recon, Hutaree, Idaho Light Foot Militia, Michigan Militia, Militia of Montana, Missouri Citizens Militia, Missouri Militia, New York Light Foot Militia, Oath Keepers, Ohio Defense Force, Texas Light Foot Militia or any of the other hundreds of Right Wing paramilitary groups in this country? Sadly, no. You will have to find/invent some other bogeyman.
That is all.
8)
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 27, 2020, 08:39:48 PM
Ask the Native Americans what these places are called.
I gather that many rivers, mountains etc. in the US do still have Native American (derived) names. To my knowledge, names for landscape features (like rivers, mountains and the like) are very often conserved in original languages even if the language or the people who spoke it were exterminated long ago. But cities were very rare in pre-Columbian America as they were rare to nonexistent in pre-Roman Germania. All the oldest cities in Germany have Roman(derived) names, even the second oldest batch from post-Roman times usually has Latin-derived names.
Quote from: Dowder on June 28, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
.
Maybe if more people knew how radical some of BLM and Antifa are they wouldn't support their terrorism.
They probably do know. Most people were less born yesterday than you think. I've never felt obligated to align myself with the most far out people that support a cause I support. So, I don't live in fear that people will think I support internet clowns on either side. But then, I don't live in fear.
Quote from: Todd on June 27, 2020, 01:58:52 PM
This is not a bad idea, but your alternative names are still problematic. The word "olympic" recalls Ancient Greece. That is, it recalls old, dead white people. It must go. Clearly, "Washington" must go, but DC is actually much, much worse.
D.C. was a bad oversight I concede; it's a stupid name anyway. Much better to call it DF for "District of the Federation" like in Mexico. The Northwestern state could be called just this, but there is Alaska which is further north and west. Alaska has a nice native sounding name it might be allowed to keep, though.
Quote from: Dowder on June 28, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
Maybe if more people knew how radical some of BLM and Antifa are they wouldn't support their terrorism.
It seems hard to deny that these movements use the ambiguity of their names. Antifa is on the one hand, if read as simply being against fascism, the boring trivial consensus of almost all current governments in developed countries and of most of their citizens, so who would want to disagree with them and align themselves with Mussolini and Franco? (Admittedly, the strawman is also a bit visible there because 1920s style fascism has virtually no political power nowadays, so it would hardly be a worthy target.) But it is also a far-left radicalist group prone to violence, very few people want to align themselves with.
Quote from: Dowder on June 28, 2020, 12:20:31 PM
It's not an either/or scenario.
All lives matter: white, black, brown. Any innocent person being murdered should be seen as a tragedy. What you're basically saying is "only black lives matter."
If you truly think that you should be supporting a movement whose goal is stopping police from killing people when they don't need to.
I wouldn't believe Jewish Lives Matter would mean other lives don't. It would mean Jewish lives matter like other lives do, and when the context is supplied by the history of anti-Semitism, there's no reason to object to it. I take the same view about any group under threat by the police or the government or extremist groups with their "will not replace us" marches. If I belonged to a threatened group like that I'd march for it. I'd say our lives matter. As it happens, because I understand these simple facts, I have no problem saying Black Lives Matter. So, I do.
Quote from: Dowder on June 28, 2020, 12:20:31 PM
It's not an either/or scenario.
All lives matter: white, black, brown. Any innocent person being murdered should be seen as a tragedy. What you're basically saying is "only black lives matter."
That's what you want to hear. Hundreds of thousands of people of all races are not marching for "only Black Lives Matter".
Violent mob scene in Colorado.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1277273696365879296
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2020, 11:42:50 AM
Just a couple of points before moving on:
'All lives matter' is nothing more than a meaningless statement meant to take attention from the fact that it is black people in general who are getting their asses shot for being black. It means nothing, which is exactly what it is intended to mean. Polish Lives Matter, or Italian Lives Matter: certainly they do, and as soon as the power of the state is directed towards killing Polish and Italian immigrants (unlikely for now, since they are mostly white), then statements like that could come into general use.
'Antifa' doesn't exist, OK? It is a construct of groups like QAnon, who have created it as the bogeyman of the Deep State, something else which doesn't exist. You will never see 'antifa' captured or defeated, because it doesn't exist. There is no organization, no manifesto, no leader, nothing. I would explain it more clearly but since it doesn't exist, that's rather difficult.
Are there people who believe that the extreme Right needs to be fought against? Hell yes! Have they formed together into a group which could only be described as a Left Wing militia, the equivalent of the 3 Percenters, Arizona Border Recon, Hutaree, Idaho Light Foot Militia, Michigan Militia, Militia of Montana, Missouri Citizens Militia, Missouri Militia, New York Light Foot Militia, Oath Keepers, Ohio Defense Force, Texas Light Foot Militia or any of the other hundreds of Right Wing paramilitary groups in this country? Sadly, no. You will have to find/invent some other bogeyman.
That is all.
8)
In addition I'd say to the addressee: try stopping speaking about "your side / their side" every time.
people aren't boxes. It's mindnumbingly simplistic.
Quote from: drogulus on June 28, 2020, 12:26:18 PM
I wouldn't believe Jewish Lives Matter would mean other lives don't. It would mean Jewish lives matter like other lives do, and when the context is supplied by the history of anti-Semitism, there's no reason to object to it. I take the same view about any group under threat by the police or the government or extremist groups with their "will not replace us" marches. If I belonged to a threatened group like that I'd march for it. I'd say our lives matter. As it happens, because I understand these simple facts, I have no problem saying Black Lives Matter. So, I do.
That's what you want to hear. Hundreds of thousands of people of all races are not marching for "only Black Lives Matter".
Bingo!
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2020, 11:42:50 AM
Just a couple of points before moving on:
'All lives matter' is nothing more than a meaningless statement meant to take attention from the fact that it is black people in general who are getting their asses shot for being black. It means nothing, which is exactly what it is intended to mean. Polish Lives Matter, or Italian Lives Matter: certainly they do, and as soon as the power of the state is directed towards killing Polish and Italian immigrants (unlikely for now, since they are mostly white), then statements like that could come into general use.
'Antifa' doesn't exist, OK? It is a construct of groups like QAnon, who have created it as the bogeyman of the Deep State, something else which doesn't exist. You will never see 'antifa' captured or defeated, because it doesn't exist. There is no organization, no manifesto, no leader, nothing. I would explain it more clearly but since it doesn't exist, that's rather difficult.
Are there people who believe that the extreme Right needs to be fought against? Hell yes! Have they formed together into a group which could only be described as a Left Wing militia, the equivalent of the 3 Percenters, Arizona Border Recon, Hutaree, Idaho Light Foot Militia, Michigan Militia, Militia of Montana, Missouri Citizens Militia, Missouri Militia, New York Light Foot Militia, Oath Keepers, Ohio Defense Force, Texas Light Foot Militia or any of the other hundreds of Right Wing paramilitary groups in this country? Sadly, no. You will have to find/invent some other bogeyman.
That is all.
8)
I don't think saying "all lives matter" is a good strategy because it denies how most people are feeling and its aim is antagonistic. However, at the same time, I think BLM is a religion. The premise is that black people are being killed by a white supremacist structure that doesn't value blacks lives, that subjugates black people. Their remedy is intersectional ideology, to make a space for black transsexual women specifically, and recognize the intersection and hierarchy of exploitation that they say pervades American society and all societies. Whiteness is the ultimate privilege and the expression or unjust power and murder, etc. current western structures must be eliminated starting with the police and continuing with systems of government, law, etc., all built on and from white power.
It's something like that.
Now, if I go on FB and write something like, are you sure these killings are motivated by racism? Or, I'm not sure racism caused these killings. Or, I don't think Racism is the main problem here or that BLM sends the wrong message or that I dislike BLM...Well, a lot of heads are going to explode. People are going to get super mad. Maybe some of my family will unfriend me.
Here's what Brown University decrees:
We write to you today as leaders of this university to express first deep sadness, but also anger, regarding the racist incidents that continue to cut short the lives of black people every day.
The sadness comes from knowing that this is not a mere moment for our country. This is historical, lasting and persistent. Structures of power, deep-rooted histories of oppression, as well as prejudice, outright bigotry and hate, directly and personally affect the lives of millions of people in this nation every minute and every hour. Black people continue to live in fear for themselves, their children and their communities, at times in fear of the very systems and structures that are supposed to be in place to ensure safety and justice.What if I said on this campus that I needed more convincing to believe that racism is killing black lives? I think it's a religion taken on faith. You cannot question this. What if I said that these incidents in the media don't represent a racist trend? It's akin to standing up in a church and saying, "Jesus did not rise." What if a I said that racism is one problem but so is high black poverty, that high black poverty increases the chances of Blacks coming into contact with police and that the causes of black poverty are a mix of things, not a result of racism alone or mostly, but many other factors?
What if I said BLM is making things worse, telling people they are victims, offering an extreme and divisive and destructive and unacceptable ideology as a solution? Again, that'd be like denying Jesus is lord. I'm not being hyperbolic, I think it's a religious attitude now that you can't question. It's an article of faith that even academic institutions decree just like evangelical colleges make teachers sign articles of faith.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2020, 11:59:38 AMAlaska has a nice native sounding name it might be allowed to keep, though.
Alaska is derived from Inuit, and many places in Alaska retain Native names. Heck, even Mt McKinley reverted to Denali not too long ago, and no one cared. (Locals called it Denali anyway.) There are obviously some unacceptable names in the state - Juneau from a French Imperialist, and Fairbanks and many others from English speaking imperialists - so those obviously need to go.
Things can get sticky with someone like Chief Joseph here in Oregon. He also had a Nez Perce name, of course, but the name Joseph has been retained by the Nez Perce, and there are towns and a canyon named after him. What to do?
Quote from: JBS on June 28, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
Violent mob scene in Colorado.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1277273696365879296
One of the violinists sounded like Peter Cropper. I would have called the police, too.
Quote from: milk on June 28, 2020, 01:52:23 PM
I don't think saying "all lives matter" is a good strategy because it denies how most people are feeling and it's aim is antagonistic.
Absolutely.
QuoteHowever, at the same time, I think BLM is a religion. The premise is that black people are being killed by a white supremacist structure that doesn't value blacks lives, that subjugates black people.
That premise, in my view, fits the facts. And a factual premise does not a "religion" make.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2020, 03:39:26 PM
Absolutely.
That premise, in my view, fits the facts. And a factual premise does not a "religion" make.
So, you don't think this is contestable? There are some famous studies that give a different picture, namely that blacks are not killed disproportionately?
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html)
Do you think there's a willingness to have a conversation about whether or not there's a real trend in African Americans being killed because of racism? Is it at all possible that that's not true, and that people are reacting in the moment to social media - to the way that social media amplifies one incident, or some incidents, that might not be a trend at all? White people are killed by the police in Minneapolis too. Innocent people. I'm not saying "all lives matter" because I don't like conservative talking points and I'm not aiming to wound anyone.
You see, I think it's a religion because I don't think that the conversation is very likely anymore and I think Brown is following a prescribed script, like an invocation. I don't think the questions I am raising here are really acceptable.
But mainly this: BLM is a whole ideology (I rehearsed it above and I'll not waste space to repeat it here, but BLM is a brand now). It's a dogma. Saying you don't agree with BLM will get you called a racist in many places just like saying Jesus is not Lord at certain points in history would have earned you the title of heathen.
May I point out what that headline says?
Quote
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
There is discernible bias in enforcement.
Quote from: milk on June 28, 2020, 04:43:01 PM
So, you don't think this is contestable? There are some famous studies that give a different picture, namely that blacks are not killed disproportionately?
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html)
Do you think there's a willingness to have a conversation about whether or not there's a real trend in African Americans being killed because of racism? Is it at all possible that that's not true, and that people are reacting in the moment to social media - to the way that social media amplifies one incident, or some incidents, that might not be a trend at all? White people are killed by the police in Minneapolis too. Innocent people. I'm not saying "all lives matter" because I don't like conservative talking points and I'm not aiming to wound anyone.
You see, I think it's a religion because I don't think that the conversation is very likely anymore and I think Brown is following a prescribed script, like an invocation. I don't think the questions I am raising here are really acceptable.
But mainly this: BLM is a whole ideology (I rehearsed it above and I'll not waste space to repeat it here, but BLM is a brand now). It's a dogma. Saying you don't agree with BLM will get you called a racist in many places just like saying Jesus is not Lord at certain points in history would have earned you the title of heathen.
By all means, ask the questions. I'd draw a distinction between a brand and a dogma, as well. There is always a conversation between people pf good faith. "Saying you don't agree with BLM" You disagree entirely? If your disagreement is more nuanced, why not express it with more subtlety?
No, this is not a single incident, it is a pattern, it's the system.
Quote from: Dowder on June 27, 2020, 07:27:58 PM
Like the person in this video?
https://twitter.com/taggartrearden/status/1276936203745492992?s=21 (https://twitter.com/taggartrearden/status/1276936203745492992?s=21)
Lol, stuff like that is probably why I avoid twitter.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2020, 05:17:41 PM
By all means, ask the questions. I'd draw a distinction between a brand and a dogma, as well. There is always a conversation between people pf good faith. "Saying you don't agree with BLM" You disagree entirely? If your disagreement is more nuanced, why not express it with more subtlety?
No, this is not a single incident, it is a pattern, it's the system.
OK. Some people taking up the banner of BLM do not even know or understand their webpage or the founding members' stated ideology. Many just don't care because they sincerely limit themselves to protesting what they see as racist brutality and believe the slogan "BLM" makes the point. BLM itself is an ideology that I believe is fundamentally anti-liberal. BLM has obviously become a brand as well. It's dangerous insofar as it's becoming more influential and well-funded.
Calling BLM is "a religion" is inflammatory language, Limbaugh-style.
The word "religion" is carefully chosen for maximum effect, appealing to "our white systems are going to be replaced" anxieties.
Quote from: milk on June 28, 2020, 05:43:15 PM
OK. Some people taking up the banner of BLM do not even know or understand their webpage or the founding members' stated ideology. Many just don't care because they sincerely limit themselves to protesting what they see as racist brutality and believe the slogan "BLM" makes the point. BLM itself is an ideology that I believe is fundamentally anti-liberal. BLM has obviously become a brand as well. It's dangerous insofar as it's becoming more influential and well-funded.
A few posts ago you were complaining about a writer you felt was ignoring progress on race. Now you're red-baiting a civil rights group like it's 1950 all over again.
Quote from: Daverz on June 28, 2020, 11:47:40 PM
A few posts ago you were complaining about a writer you felt was ignoring progress on race. Now you're red-baiting a civil rights group like it's 1950 all over again.
Yikes. I am not persecuting anybody. BLM has long stated their system of belief. It's not a secret what it's all about. Can we critique it? You can argue it's not an ideology or you can defend what intersectionality means and the dismantling of the white system. Why not do that instead of these accusations? Maybe you'll change my mind?
Quote from: Herman on June 28, 2020, 11:29:25 PM
Calling BLM is "a religion" is inflammatory language, Limbaugh-style.
The word "religion" is carefully chosen for maximum effect, appealing to "our white systems are going to be replaced" anxieties.
It's an interesting accusation to me - someone who's always hated Limbaugh. Actually, I'm not an original. Unfortunately, I didn't come up with this myself. It's John McWhorter I saw talking about what's going on now as a kind of religion. He's an interesting person: a linguist - someone who shows up in the Atlantic. Not too far out of the mainstream. And Black. Go and tell him he's appealing to "our white systems...anxieties."
I'll just quote his Wikipedia page since I find him and his views rather interesting and instructive:
McWhorter characterizes himself as "a cranky liberal Democrat." In support of this description, he states that while he "disagrees sustainedly with many of the tenets of the Civil Rights orthodoxy," he also "supports Barack Obama, reviles the War on Drugs, supports gay marriage, never voted for George Bush and writes of Black English as coherent speech". McWhorter additionally notes that the conservative Manhattan Institute, for which he worked, "has always been hospitable to Democrats."McWhorter has criticized left-wing and activist educators in particular, such as Paulo Freire and Jonathan Kozol. He believes that affirmative action should be based on class rather than race. Political theorist Mark Satin identifies McWhorter as a radical centrist thinker...McWhorter considers that anti-racism has become as harmful a force in the United States as racism itself. According to him, what is holding blacks back is "black attitudes" rather than white racism...In April 2015, McWhorter appeared on NPR and said that the use of the word "thug" was becoming code for "the N-word" or "black people ruining things" when used by whites in reference to criminal activity. He added that use by President Obama and former Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake (for which she later apologized) could not be interpreted in the same way, given that the black community's use of "thug" may positively connote admiration for black self-direction and survival. McWhorter clarified his views in an article in the Washington Post...McWhorter has criticized microaggression and white supremacy theories, and has argued that technology cannot be racist.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McWhorter
Quote from: milk on June 29, 2020, 03:25:51 AM
It's an interesting accusation to me - someone who's always hated Limbaugh. Actually, I'm not an original. Unfortunately, I didn't come up with this myself.
It wasn't an accusation of you.
I was assuming you had taken this concept from somewhere else.
What I was saying is that the 'religion' thing was potentially inflammatory, since very few people shrug their shoulders if it's about religion.
Quote from: Herman on June 28, 2020, 11:29:25 PM
Calling BLM is "a religion" is inflammatory language, Limbaugh-style.
The word "religion" is carefully chosen for maximum effect, appealing to "our white systems are going to be replaced" anxieties.
Quote from: Herman on June 29, 2020, 03:56:07 AM
It wasn't an accusation of you.
I was assuming you had taken this concept from somewhere else.
What I was saying is that the 'religion' thing was potentially inflammatory, since very few people shrug their shoulders if it's about religion.
yeah but it sounds like what you're saying is that people making this accusation have this hidden or sinister motive? I don't think for one second that McWhorter is attempting to appeal to white fear. I think he believes it's become a faith thing - and so do I. It's very hard to back away from any worldview once you're fully invested. People go all the way in on this stuff and then good luck trying to say, "well, maybe it's not true."
1 man killed, another injured in shooting near Seattle's 'CHOP' zone Monday morning (https://www.king5.com/article/news/crime/seattle-shooting-capitol-hill-chop-chaz/281-48392a9e-d760-42f3-9469-c99466ed7a9f)
The foot dragging in the Emerald City shows that Seattle's mayor really hates public safety. Young leftists can be put on the chopping block, I guess.
This beats polls or pundits like 538
https://electionbettingodds.com/
Quote from: Dowder on June 29, 2020, 02:12:10 AM
Then "All Lives Matter" would be appropriate. It isn't because the movement is only about the advancement of one particular race of people to the detriment of others. Identity politics at its worst. You see the racist extremism in "they won't replace us" but not in the racist BLM movement that operates along the same radical ideology, fears, etc.
No, it would deliberately miss the point that as things stand, all lives don't matter equally.
You have a zero sum interpretation of BLM, seeing it as advocating detriments to other races. You should be an economist, they do that all the time. If you spend on the poor the rich will suffer a detriment. Bleah! It doesn't work that way. If black lives are allowed to matter equally, nothing will be taken from other races they are entitled to have. Police won't brutalize whites if they stop brutalizing others.
You suppose people march for zero sum losses for their own race. You understand this and they don't. No, they understand and you don't.
Quote from: BWV 1080 on June 29, 2020, 06:34:29 AM
This beats polls or pundits like 538
https://electionbettingodds.com/
The only outcome variables are the size of the Dem majorities in Congress. I still hold fast to >240 in the House and <60 in the Senate.
Quote from: Todd on June 29, 2020, 07:39:11 AM
The only outcome variables are the size of the Dem majorities in Congress. I still hold fast to >240 in the House and <60 in the Senate.
Which hopefully preserves the corporate income tax cuts
Quote from: BWV 1080 on June 29, 2020, 06:34:29 AM
This beats polls or pundits like 538
https://electionbettingodds.com/
Interesting!
Trump is trying to revert health care coverage to (un)employment based. Some people thought that type was dying and should be even more dead since it was pricing itself into a smaller market on its own. I didn't buy the notion that people loved private health care, because I didn't. It was better than having no coverage, but the instability was worrisome long before it became the horrorshow it is now.
What good is it to love health care that you'll lose so easily? How good is it when it's gone?
Quote from: Herman on June 28, 2020, 11:29:25 PM
Calling BLM is "a religion" is inflammatory language, Limbaugh-style.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
In Cleveland, a petition to replace the statue of Colombus by one of Chef Boyardee (real name Ettore Boiardi) the creator of beefaroni (it's serious):
(https://thumbor.thedailymeal.com/_Lc1H3XoaWo4gHqD_oPYTcV6yKQ=/574x366/https://www.thedailymeal.com/sites/default/files/images/1-chefboyardee-itemmaster.com.jpg)
https://www.newsweek.com/petition-calls-officials-replace-columbus-statue-chef-boyardee-1513883 (https://www.newsweek.com/petition-calls-officials-replace-columbus-statue-chef-boyardee-1513883)
Quote from: André on June 29, 2020, 10:19:46 AM
In Cleveland, a petition to replace the statue of Colombus by one of Chef Boyardee (real name Ettore Boiardi) the creator of beefaroni (it's serious):
(https://thumbor.thedailymeal.com/_Lc1H3XoaWo4gHqD_oPYTcV6yKQ=/574x366/https://www.thedailymeal.com/sites/default/files/images/1-chefboyardee-itemmaster.com.jpg)
https://www.newsweek.com/petition-calls-officials-replace-columbus-statue-chef-boyardee-1513883 (https://www.newsweek.com/petition-calls-officials-replace-columbus-statue-chef-boyardee-1513883)
Diabetes > Genocide.
Right. Russia.
Matt Taibbi:
A core principle of the academic movement that shot through elite schools in America since the early nineties was the view that individual rights, humanism, and the democratic process are all just stalking-horses for white supremacy. The concept, as articulated in books like former corporate consultant Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility (Amazon's #1 seller!) reduces everything, even the smallest and most innocent human interactions, to racial power contests.
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility
Quote from: Matt TaibbiAt a time of catastrophe and national despair, when conservative nationalism is on the rise and violent confrontation on the streets is becoming commonplace, it's extremely suspicious that the books politicians, the press, university administrators, and corporate consultants alike are asking us to read are urging us to put race even more at the center of our identities, and fetishize the unbridgeable nature of our differences. Meanwhile books like The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird, which are both beautiful and actually anti-racist, have been banned, for containing the "N-word." (White Fragility contains it too, by the way). It's almost like someone thinks there's a benefit to keeping people divided.
Race is the best wedge issue of all. Republicans love it. Democrats love it.
One of the elements of political discussions I do not understand is what is better, liberalism or conservatism.
Frankly I do not know.
I have learned that sometimes a liberal solution is better, sometimes a conservative. Even though I now consider myself a socialist, I am aware that sometimes a conservative approach may be the best. It appears to be that this is just plain common sense.
I remember reading an old military axiom that all strategy and tactics are contingent on the situation and the terrain. I recently read a book on the grand strategy of the Eastern Roman Empire. How they deployed their military forces depended on who and where they were fighting.
In spite of this I am constantly hearing and reading SPEOE stating that conservative are wrong 100% of the time and vice-versa.
I do not understand how a rational person does not understand this.
I have also learned there are smart Republicans and Democrats, and there are stupid Republicans and Democrats. The stupid bug is apolitical. When he is looking for a meal he does not care if his target is a liberal or conservative.
Some realtors no longer using "master" to describe bedrooms and bathrooms (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/realtors-master-bedroom-bathroom-terminology/)
Don't worry, the current political climate in the US can and will become even more stupid.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 29, 2020, 02:35:59 PM
One of the elements of political discussions I do not understand is what is better, liberalism or conservatism.
Frankly I do not know.
I have learned that sometimes a liberal solution is better, sometimes a conservative. Even though I now consider myself a socialist, I am aware that sometimes a conservative approach may be the best. It appears to be that this is just plain common sense.
I remember reading an old military axiom that all strategy and tactics are contingent on the situation and the terrain. I recently read a book on the grand strategy of the Eastern Roman Empire. How they deployed their military forces depended on who and where they were fighting.
In spite of this I am constantly hearing and reading SPEOE stating that conservative are wrong 100% of the time and vice-versa.
I do not understand how a rational person does not understand this.
I have also learned there are smart Republicans and Democrats, and there are stupid Republicans and Democrats. The stupid bug is apolitical. When he is looking for a meal he does not care if his target is a liberal or conservative.
Prepackaged ideologies are pretty much all garbage. The best way to handle things is just to think objectively.
Quote from: Todd on June 29, 2020, 03:04:27 PM
Some realtors no longer using "master" to describe bedrooms and bathrooms (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/realtors-master-bedroom-bathroom-terminology/)
Don't worry, the current political climate in the US can and will become even more stupid.
Before long, they will be finding pro-confederate messages when country music is played backwards. I miss the days when we had right wing moral panics
Quote from: BWV 1080 on June 29, 2020, 03:12:05 PM
Before long, they will be finding pro-confederate messages when country music is played backwards. I miss the days when we had right wing moral panics
Bring back Satan.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives)
The super-rich will have to keep up the pretense that national politics might someday make a difference. Since economic decisions are their prerogative, they will encourage politicians of both the Left and the Right, to specialize in cultural issues. The aim will be to keep the minds of the proles elsewhere – to keep the bottom 75 percent of Americans and the bottom 95 percent of the world's population busy with ethnic and religious hostilities, and with debates about sexual mores. If the proles can be distracted from their own despair by media-created pseudo-events...the super-rich will have little to fear.
Quote from: milk on June 29, 2020, 03:22:36 PM
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives)
The super-rich will have to keep up the pretense that national politics might someday make a difference. Since economic decisions are their prerogative, they will encourage politicians of both the Left and the Right, to specialize in cultural issues. The aim will be to keep the minds of the proles elsewhere – to keep the bottom 75 percent of Americans and the bottom 95 percent of the world's population busy with ethnic and religious hostilities, and with debates about sexual mores. If the proles can be distracted from their own despair by media-created pseudo-events...the super-rich will have little to fear.
I think this confuses the means and goals of lobbyists with the preferences of rich people, which are as diverse as any group. Of course lobbyists think everyone is a customer or a product, and it's in their interest to amp up the conflict.
There's good stuff in the article, though. Rorty is correct about how the left fractured in the '60s.
Panic or not, change follows. How panicky was Me Too? Medium panicky, or so panicky you wouldn't believe how much? It has made a difference.
Quote from: milk on June 29, 2020, 02:10:41 PM
Matt Taibbi:
A core principle of the academic movement that shot through elite schools in America since the early nineties was the view that individual rights, humanism, and the democratic process are all just stalking-horses for white supremacy. The concept, as articulated in books like former corporate consultant Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility (Amazon's #1 seller!) reduces everything, even the smallest and most innocent human interactions, to racial power contests.
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility
I think these principles are good even when the left goes to war against them. The right is arguing instrumentally in mock favor of liberal virtues they don't take seriously.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives)
Richard Rorty's prescient warnings for the American left
"The super-rich will have to keep up the pretense that national politics might someday make a difference. Since economic decisions are their prerogative, they will encourage politicians of both the Left and the Right, to specialize in cultural issues. The aim will be to keep the minds of the proles elsewhere – to keep the bottom 75 percent of Americans and the bottom 95 percent of the world's population busy with ethnic and religious hostilities, and with debates about sexual mores. If the proles can be distracted from their own despair by media-created pseudo-events...the super-rich will have little to fear."
I would have thought that if "master bedroom" were bad it would be for gender issues rather than race.
Quote from: milk on June 29, 2020, 04:27:54 PM
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives)
Richard Rorty's prescient warnings for the American left
"The super-rich will have to keep up the pretense that national politics might someday make a difference. Since economic decisions are their prerogative, they will encourage politicians of both the Left and the Right, to specialize in cultural issues. The aim will be to keep the minds of the proles elsewhere – to keep the bottom 75 percent of Americans and the bottom 95 percent of the world's population busy with ethnic and religious hostilities, and with debates about sexual mores. If the proles can be distracted from their own despair by media-created pseudo-events...the super-rich will have little to fear."
That presumes there is some coherent group of "super-rich" who maintain a consensus among themselves about economic decisions and can control politicians to maintain those decisions.
The available evidence suggests that's a false narrative.
There's Joe Biden telling the world that over a million people have died from Covid-19. The poor man has huge cognitive deficits and I feel sorry for him. He will be manipulated by the far Left puppets in the 'swamp' and that's why they want him, of course. The far left has colonized the Democratic Party. No more mavericks who make their own decisions. The swamp claims its own.
Quote from: Christabel on June 29, 2020, 04:50:10 PMThere's Joe Biden telling the world that over a million people have died from Covid-19.
Quote from: Super-Creepy 46And a lot of people – you have, unnecessarily, now we have over 120 million dead from COVID.
Quote from: Super-Creepy 46That has caused carnage on our streets. 150 million people have been killed since 2007 when Bernie voted to exempt the gun manufacturers from liability. More than all the wars, including Vietnam, from that point on.
Joseph Robinette Biden Jr., the 46th President of the United States of America, will be razor sharp when it counts.
Quote from: Christabel on June 29, 2020, 04:50:10 PM
There's Joe Biden telling the world that over a million people have died from Covid-19. The poor man has huge cognitive deficits and I feel sorry for him. He will be manipulated by the far Left puppets in the 'swamp' and that's why they want him, of course. The far left has colonized the Democratic Party. No more mavericks who make their own decisions. The swamp claims its own.
That would be a distressing turn of events (the 'colonization', that is) if the Far Right hadn't already, and earlier, done the same with the Republican Party. I am not assuming you are casting stones here, but if you are, you need to look in your own house first. I know, I used to live there.... :-\
8)
Quote from: Dowder on June 29, 2020, 05:13:15 PM
An overlooked article from last year, dealing with a leaked meeting at the NYT over the transition in reporting from Russia to Racism and the struggles about reporting on race, specifically Trump's unique brand of so-called racism:
" Now, Baquet continued, "I think that we've got to change." The Times must "write more deeply about the country, race, and other divisions."
"I mean, the vision for coverage for the next two years is what I talked about earlier: How do we cover a guy who makes these kinds of remarks?" Baquet said. "How do we cover the world's reaction to him? How do we do that while continuing to cover his policies? How do we cover America, that's become so divided by Donald Trump?"
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/new-york-times-chief-outlines-coverage-shift-from-trump-russia-to-trump-racism?_amp=true (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/new-york-times-chief-outlines-coverage-shift-from-trump-russia-to-trump-racism?_amp=true)
The implication that The Trump/Russia story was not true is ludicrous. Barr/Rosenstein killed that investigation and it is still being sorted out today. Just because the Justice Dept. succeeded in having it quashed (for the time being) doesn't make it untrue or a non-story.
That said, tell me sincerely that you are surprised that a newspaper, or any other organization which looks past tomorrow doesn't hold planning meetings. I'm sure even the Washington Examiner does, although their lack of Pulitzer's might argue that they need to get better at it. I see now where certain argument styles stem from: you can't prove it so it didn't happen. In the long run, the truth will come out though, it always does. Maybe not in time to oust him from his position, but the voters are going to do that anyway, he is so abysmally sorry at what he does that even many in his own party aren't going to be voting for him. I'm beginning to see Biden's strategy: sit at home and keep your mouth shut and let Trump destroy himself. It's working, so that's all good.
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2020, 05:34:07 PM
The implication that The Trump/Russia story was not true is ludicrous. Barr/Rosenstein killed that investigation and it is still being sorted out today. Just because the Justice Dept. succeeded in having it quashed (for the time being) doesn't make it untrue or a non-story.
Indeed, the larger story of the stooge DOJ is growing by the week.
Quote from: Dan RatherThere is fear, confusion, misinformation, and so much we still don't know about the coronavirus. This is why national leadership is essential, why sober and honest messaging is essential. Instead we have a yawning vacuum filled by pettiness, incompetence, incoherence and deceit.
Liberal academics did more to undermine the illiberal left in academia than all the right wing concern trolls who don't share the values that were under attack.
From my own shelves there is Higher Superstition: The Academic Left and Its Quarrels with Science, and Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Intellectuals' Abuse of Science.
Science is where you'd expect to see the warfare get hottest. Twenty some years later, socially constructed truth has been taken over by Trumpists and by golly, they've made objective knowledge their enemy in just about every way they can.
Quote from: JBS on June 29, 2020, 04:38:12 PM
That presumes there is some coherent group of "super-rich" who maintain a consensus among themselves about economic decisions and can control politicians to maintain those decisions.
The available evidence suggests that's a false narrative.
Maybe. I don't know what Rorty was thinking. Although an important philosopher, his pragmatism is generally incomprehensible to me. On the other hand, look at the Taibbi article I posted. Taibbi is pretty smart and his article has a strange kind of congruence with Rorty. Maybe it's just that these corporate issues are easy to promote while they lobby behind the scenes for the status quo. There's probably a consensus among them that campaign finance reforms are a bad idea as well as corporate tax responsibility? Come to think of it, I bet the global super rich can come up with some semblance of consensus without trying very hard.
Quote from: Dowder on June 29, 2020, 07:58:43 PM
The cancel culture is a phenomenon of the Left, hardly one with serious academic debate, happening primarily at universities and colleges. No matter what the science or statistics say, you violate the ideology (eg, Police shootings, BLM, Abortion, Transgenderism, IQ, etc) you get canceled. Facts and evidence don't matter but radical ideas do.
Only liberals can fight it, because it's an attack on liberal values.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/29/politics/trump-phone-calls-national-security-concerns/index.html (https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/29/politics/trump-phone-calls-national-security-concerns/index.html)
From pandering to Putin to abusing allies and ignoring his own advisers, Trump's phone calls alarm US officials
The calls caused former top Trump deputies -- including national security advisers H.R. McMaster and John Bolton, Defense Secretary James Mattis, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, and White House chief of staff John Kelly, as well as intelligence officials -- to conclude that the President was often "delusional," as two sources put it, in his dealings with foreign leaders. The sources said there was little evidence that the President became more skillful or competent in his telephone conversations with most heads of state over time. Rather, he continued to believe that he could either charm, jawbone or bully almost any foreign leader into capitulating to his will, and often pursued goals more attuned to his own agenda than what many of his senior advisers considered the national interest.
Quote from: SimonNZ on June 29, 2020, 04:36:07 PM
I would have thought that if "master bedroom" were bad it would be for gender issues rather than race.
;D
Hopefully that's not a future issue, let people do what they want, I say.
Quote from: Dowder on June 29, 2020, 07:58:43 PM
The cancel culture is a phenomenon of the Left, hardly one with serious academic debate, happening primarily at universities and colleges. No matter what the science or statistics say, you violate the ideology (eg, Police shootings, BLM, Abortion, Transgenderism, IQ, etc) you get canceled. Facts and evidence don't matter but radical ideas do.
I wanted to add cultural appropriation and "believe all women" to your list.
Sadly, I think there's a lot of truth to this. It's shocking to see what's happened. I remember when I was a university student in 1986 and a feminist teacher of some kind told the class that physical differences in size and musculature between men and women were a social construct. That was Gen X and we were mostly wide-eyed and not questioning this kind of thinking.
I bopped around to another university in the late 80s where we protested and took over the admin building over a hodgepodge of issues. I look back and kind of cringe because I think us kids were not going to be reasonable. We were just too young. A 20-year-old is not really an adult. I'd like to blame it all on millennials and I do think that social media is the catalyst to this toxic soup (excuse my probably nonsensical metaphor) but it probably started with Gen X and third-wavers.
I think this identity ideology is intoxicating because it sounds great while not requiring much rigor. It's not only that students seem to want pre-approved ideas coming at them, they have all these triggers and intellectual safety violations now and they are able to destroy their teachers' careers. They can get the school to even go after the community as they did at Oberlin.
I'm not a conservative. I think this whole thing is NOT "liberal" because it stifles inquiry. Above all it's so boring. It takes all the fun out of learning if there's nothing "dangerous" or "adventurous" in it.
It's also illiberal because it's unforgiving, cruel and flagellating.
Quote from: milk on June 29, 2020, 09:07:20 PM
I wanted to add cultural appropriation and "believe all women" to your list.
For someone who is not a conservative, you seem to be very animated by all the stereotypical right wing culture war resentments. And all this stuff you whine about is a huge nothingburger, just another reactionary moral panic with no substance.
Quote from: Daverz on June 29, 2020, 10:36:07 PM
For someone who is not a conservative, you seem to be very animated by all the stereotypical right wing culture war resentments. And all this stuff you whine about is a huge nothingburger, just another reactionary moral panic with no substance.
I try not to accuse people here of anything, though I'm sure I have in the past. Anyway, as I said before, I've recently been interested in a spectrum of voices on this, including Glenn Loury and John McWhorter. Both of them are very worried, though I don't think I'm panicking yet. They might be. I don't think my views have ever been conservative: Pro-gay marriage, pro-national healthcare, pro-tax-the-wealthy, pro-campaign finance, Pro-choice, anti-death penalty, pro-gun control...I thought Obama was a great president. I don't see that I'm particularly conservative. Yes, I think the woke stuff is bunk.
Quote from: Dowder on June 29, 2020, 07:58:43 PM
The cancel culture is a phenomenon of the Left
Tell it to the
Dixie Chicks, Kathy Griffin (some people can't take a fucking joke), Keurig (people trashing their own Keurig machines, good times), Disney, Target, Nike (burn your own Nikes...while you are still wearing them!), that donut shop that stopped their police discount, ... that's just off the top of my head, I haven't even looked on google.
Quote from: Dowder on June 29, 2020, 08:10:12 PM
Yeah, others have meetings and they found their "new" story to divisively feature: race. In this election year the media really did a number with Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks. Insofar as the NYT, the race slant to reporting was being cooked up last year after the Mueller investigation ran dry.
If that were true then he could have confounded that plan by displaying some empathy.
"Instead we have a yawning vacuum filled by pettiness, incompetence, incoherence and deceit."
You've got to admit, Karl, that's a very full vacuum.
And with better hair!
All this talk (here) about cancel culture, master bedrooms and political correctness on campuses strikes me as a massive case of whataboutism.
Like Trump bringing up "Merry Christmas" whenever he's out of material.
I would think the upcoming elections are about continuing a highly corrupt and inept Trump administration or not. Master bedrooms will remain the same, even if we were to call them the "big bedroom" henceforth.
Quote from: Herman on June 29, 2020, 11:53:11 PM
All this talk (here) about cancel culture, master bedrooms and political correctness on campuses strikes me as a massive case of whataboutism.
Like Trump bringing up "Merry Christmas" whenever he's out of material.
I would think the upcoming elections are about continuing a highly corrupt and inept Trump administration or not. Master bedrooms will remain the same, even if we were to call them the "big bedroom" henceforth.
Tump has got to go. He's a menace in so many ways. America needs to reaffirm it's commitment to its traditional allies and to global stability. China needs to be countered. We need to work on environmental issues. Plus, the Supreme Court and circuit courts need to be balanced and Obamacare needs protecting.
But, will dems be ready to deliver something to people should they get the presidency, the Senate and the House? I hope so.
Quote from: milk on June 30, 2020, 02:35:35 AM
But, will dems be ready to deliver something to people should they get the presidency, the Senate and the House? I hope so.
Well, naturally they would be able to deliver sanity and professionalism in the WH cabinet, instead of business pals, "no poor people" and "Central Casting".
If the Dems got both houses they could undo a lot of damage, but I wouldn't yet count on flipping the Senate.
Quote from: Daverz on June 29, 2020, 11:29:33 PM...Nike...
Nike is in the fortunate bi-partisan position of facing wrath from left and right alike. The closest protests have come to where I live are the demonstrations at the Nike World Headquarters a couple weeks ago. The protestors were protesting something about racial something. They said stuff. There were signs. It meant something. Or something.
The left is in a full-blown moral panic focused on race and fueled by unemployment caused by pandemic, and stoked further by a sensationalist press. When the moral panic subsides, just about after the election, we will get to witness the fine art of the slow-walk, as legislators and bureaucrats fail to live up their promises. The discontent on the left will be delightful. Because this time is different, etc.
Quote from: Todd on June 30, 2020, 04:07:20 AM
Nike is in the fortunate bi-partisan position of facing wrath from left and right alike. The closest protests have come to where I live are the demonstrations at the Nike World Headquarters a couple weeks ago. The protestors were protesting something about racial something. They said stuff. There were signs. It meant something. Or something.
The left is in a full-blown moral panic focused on race and fueled by unemployment caused by pandemic, and stoked further by a sensationalist press. When the moral panic subsides, just about after the election, we will get to witness the fine art of the slow-walk, as legislators and bureaucrats fail to live up their promises. The discontent on the left will be delightful. Because this time is different, etc.
We all need something to look forward to,
For some, even something pathetic will do.
When our clown hero's chances have all but died
Remember: gloating deferred is gloating denied.
Quote from: Daverz on June 29, 2020, 10:36:07 PM
For someone who is not a conservative, you seem to be very animated by all the stereotypical right wing culture war resentments. And all this stuff you whine about is a huge nothingburger, just another reactionary moral panic with no substance.
I wish this were true. But it's all too common to see examples.
Like the most recent one, Angry Joe from youtube. His accuser ended up deleting the accusations like nothing happened. "Believe all women." Would be great in an ideal world. But we don't live in one.
Quote from: drogulus on June 29, 2020, 07:12:25 PM
Twenty some years later, socially constructed truth has been taken over by Trumpists and by golly, they've made objective knowledge their enemy in just about every way they can.
As indeed we witness right here.
I found last month's assessment of the present American condition by the editor in chief of the Thai Inquirer very helpful:
https://www.thaienquirer.com/13861/foreign-affairs-unrest-continues-for-a-seventh-day-in-former-british-colony
https://www.youtube.com/v/6kOesPt7iBY
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzLMQss1/hall-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Fauci testifies new coronavirus cases could 'go up to 100,000 a day if this does not turn around'
Anyone see it "turning around" with the current POTUS & Veep?—Flush that turd on November Third.
This story made me smile...and many, many others too: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-53199845/young-skater-goes-viral-performing-at-black-lives-matter-plaza
PD
Quote from: milk on June 29, 2020, 11:26:54 PM
I try not to accuse people here of anything, though I'm sure I have in the past. Anyway, as I said before, I've recently been interested in a spectrum of voices on this, including Glenn Loury and John McWhorter. Both of them are very worried, though I don't think I'm panicking yet. They might be. I don't think my views have ever been conservative: Pro-gay marriage, pro-national healthcare, pro-tax-the-wealthy, pro-campaign finance, Pro-choice, anti-death penalty, pro-gun control...I thought Obama was a great president. I don't see that I'm particularly conservative. Yes, I think the woke stuff is bunk.
Sorry I was so testy. The whole "anti-SJW" thing really annoys me. No, blue-haired teenage SJWs at Oberlin are not going to destroy masculinity and Western Civilisation. The world has more pressing problems.
Quote from: Christo on June 30, 2020, 08:54:15 AM
I found last month's assessment of the present American condition by the editor in chief of the Thai Inquirer very helpful:
https://www.thaienquirer.com/13861/foreign-affairs-unrest-continues-for-a-seventh-day-in-former-british-colony
Quote
Religious fundamentalism and minority suppression has long been a problem in the former British colony (...) The United States has had a long history of suppressing and persecuting its various ethnic minorities. American black minority groups were under a program similar to South Africa's Apartheid policy until as recently as 1964. Today, the ethnic black community is still detained and killed with impunity by the state security forces and black Americans make up the majority of those incarcerated under the country's archaic judicial system
From Bangkok, with love...
Quote from: Daverz on June 30, 2020, 04:10:44 PM
Sorry I was so testy. The whole "anti-SJW" thing really annoys me. No, blue-haired teenage SJWs at Oberlin are not going to destroy masculinity and Western Civilisation. The world has more pressing problems.
It's harder to see the increasing damages if you are on, or close to, their side (aka not in the path or destruction).
Quote from: Dowder on June 30, 2020, 06:10:07 PM
Yeah, the racial friction is so bad that millions and millions of Asians, Hispanics and Africans try to immigrate here. In the words of Arpeggio: bogus!
Well if certain people get their way and the US becomes a communist country in the next 10 to 20 years, then they will have done the work of the far right racists for them: they will discourage immigrants from coming here, reducing the cultural diversity in the long run. :P
Quote from: Dowder on June 30, 2020, 06:10:07 PM
Yeah, the racial friction is so bad that millions and millions of Asians, Hispanics and Africans try to immigrate here. In the words of Arpeggio: bogus!
Ah, what passes for "argument" among some.
Quote from: Dowder on June 30, 2020, 06:30:23 PM
Not all racists are on the far right. I suppose the left wing ones in that situation will white flight themselves to Canada or Asia.
Another so what. Common sense dictates that out of three hundred million, there are a few hundred thousand liberals who are racist. I admitted I used to be one. I admitted that in earlier posts and how serving in the US Army changed me.
Provide us with a list of current liberals who are racist and we will have no problem denouncing them.
Quote from: Dowder on June 30, 2020, 07:48:59 PM
If I added the "POC" who are racist expect the numbers to increase. (Maybe America is an equal opportunity country in so far as racism?)
However, it's usually the white ones who flee like a bat out of hell when 'there goes the neighborhood.'
What is "POC"?
Quote from: arpeggio on June 30, 2020, 08:34:17 PM
What is "POC"?
Point of Contactahem, sorry... not at work any more...
it's "People of Color"
Quote from: greg on June 30, 2020, 08:46:44 PM
Point of Contact
ahem, sorry... not at work any more...
it's "People of Color"
What? There are people of color who are racist?
Again common sense dictates that there are some blacks who are racist. So what?
Quote from: Dowder on June 30, 2020, 06:10:07 PM
anti-American and pure Marxist propaganda.
Hahaha :D
Quote from: arpeggio on June 30, 2020, 08:34:17 PM
What is "POC"?
He's switching to the "whatabout black people having prejudices too?"
It makes one wonder whether this is really a rightwing bot.
Quote from: arpeggio on June 30, 2020, 09:02:56 PM
What? There are people of color who are racist?
Again common sense dictates that there are some blacks who are racist. So what?
Well that's not what a lot of people on the left believe nowadays (the belief that only white people can be racist).
But yeah, I don't quite see the point of him mentioning that either, even if it may be true.
So CHAZ is being finally shut down after an underage black guy was shot and killed by their own security... wait... what was this area made for protesting again? It was some issue that the US has... hmmm guessing I'm Bidening today, can't remember, oh well lol.
Quote from: greg on July 01, 2020, 05:29:28 AM
Well that's not what a lot of people on the left believe nowadays (the belief that only white people can be racist).
It's so interesting to hear - from others - what "people from the left" think and believe.
Speak for yourself, I was taught.
Q
Quote from: Que on July 01, 2020, 09:09:16 AM
It's so interesting to hear - from others - what "people from the left" think and belief.
Speak for yourself, I was taught.
Q
Up there with Trump's "they say...."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2020, 09:14:12 AM
Up there with Trump's "they say...."
It's an old tactic to create and manipulate an image of "the others"....
Q
Quote from: Que on July 01, 2020, 09:19:12 AM
It's an old tactic to create and manipulate an image of "the others"....
Q
Aye. Just so.
Not that the Blue team ever engages in that activity...
Quote from: BWV 1080 on July 01, 2020, 10:38:13 AM
Not that the Blue team ever engages in that activity...
That's so meta 8)
Quote from: Que on July 01, 2020, 09:09:16 AM
It's so interesting to hear - from others - what "people from the left" think and believe.
Speak for yourself, I was taught.
Q
That's why I said "a lot of people", not just "people on the left" and nothing else.
It's something I hear often, since it's part of the ideology. It states that if you are perceived as "at the top" the only that group can be "-ist"... in this case, since white people are perceived as having the most power then only they can be racist. It's part of the redefinition itself of "racism = power + privilege."
Perhaps you haven't kept up with how this ideology has been changing the last 10-20 years, but that's how it is now. Perhaps you are just liberal, which is different from leftist.
In 5-4 decision, Supreme Court rules states cannot ban public funding for religious schools (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/5-4-decision-supreme-court-rules-states-cannot-ban-public-n1231389)
Supreme Court, in 5-4 ruling, strikes down restrictive Louisiana abortion law (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-strikes-down-restrictive-louisiana-abortion-law-n1231392)
Decisions taken together that will make people across the political spectrum unhappy. Good work, SCOTUS!
Supreme Court makes it easier for president to fire CFPB head (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-makes-it-easier-president-fire-cfpb-head-n1232427)
But this is the decision that really matters. Good work, SCOTUS!
My friend's aunt posted this to her FB page (you can never underestimate stupidity):
"ANTIFA / TERRORIST ATTACK PLAN ON 4th OF JULY:
PLEASE be aware this July 4....... 30,000 members per state...many trained by radical Islam - plan on killing as many Trump supporters and whites as possible!!
ANTIFA To Desecrate Gettysburg National Cemetery on July 4 - Then MURDER & BURN White Suburbs under cover of "Fireworks" ANTIFA is planning to desecrate the Gettysburg National Cemetery by burning flags there on July 4; just before they begin MURDERING White people and BURNING DOWN Suburbs the same day. It will start at the desecration of Union Solder graves at Gettysburg, Pa. According to the Controlled Unclassified Law Enforcement Bulletin issued as "Law Enforcement Sensitive - For Official Use Only" to Police and Fire Departments about ANTIFA already using fireworks to acclimate suburbia with sounds of explosions, so they can use those to cover for gun fire when they attack white, suburban, neighborhoods the same day. According to Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI) in a Bulletin issued to Police and Fire Departments, ANTIFA has been taking deliveries of very large shipments of professional-grade fireworks. They have been sending teams out to various areas throughout America to detonate those fireworks for the past two weeks, to achieve"
Quote from: greg on July 01, 2020, 01:44:11 PM
That's why I said "a lot of people", not just "people on the left" and nothing else.
It's something I hear often, since it's part of the ideology. It states that if you are perceived as "at the top" the only that group can be "-ist"... in this case, since white people are perceived as having the most power then only they can be racist. It's part of the redefinition itself of "racism = power + privilege."
Perhaps you haven't kept up with how this ideology has been changing the last 10-20 years, but that's how it is now. Perhaps you are just liberal, which is different from leftist.
It's a game of words, really.... How do the concepts of racial prejudice, racial discrimination and "racism" relate?
My impression is that in Europe "racism" is the more general term covering both prejudice and discrimination.
When someone is "racist", we're referring to someone with racial prejudices and who believes in racial superiority.
Obviously an (unequal) power relation is going to be decisive for the impact of
any form of prejudice.
So, if you claim that "a lot of people on the left" believe that only white people can be racist...
Are you suggesting that "they" (whoever they are are) think that (in current US society) only white people can use race against someone else in a position of power?
Or are you suggesting that "they" believe that only whites can have racial prejudices?
Q
Quote from: Dowder on June 30, 2020, 06:10:07 PM
anti-American and pure Marxist propaganda.
Not very clever retort indeed. ???
Quote from: Que on July 02, 2020, 12:59:53 AM
It's a game of words, really.... How do the concepts of racial prejudice, racial discrimination and "racism" relate?
My impression is that in Europe "racism" is the more general term covering both prejudice and discrimination.
When someone is "racist", we're referring to someone with racial prejudices and who believes in racial superiority.
Obviously an (unequal) power relation is going to be decisive for the impact of any form of prejudice.
So, if you claim that "a lot of people on the left" believe that only white people can be racist...
Are you suggesting that "they" (whoever they are are) think that (in current US society) only white people can use race against someone else in a position of power?
Or are you suggesting that "they" believe that only whites can have racial prejudices?
Q
I think none of this matters anymore much to the new people running the show. I go back to what Matt Taibbi is saying about Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility - which has been meme-d around at me (her book, not Taibbi). Taibbi can't be accused of being anywhere near the right but the memes suggest you can't win by quoting anyone criticizing the new regime: it's un-criticize-able.
But Taibbi is more than on point, he's hilarious:
DiAngelo isn't the first person to make a buck pushing tricked-up pseudo-intellectual horseshit as corporate wisdom, but she might be the first to do it selling Hitlerian race theory. White Fragility has a simple message: there is no such thing as a universal human experience, and we are defined not by our individual personalities or moral choices, but only by our racial category.
If your category is "white," bad news: you have no identity apart from your participation in white supremacy ("Anti-blackness is foundational to our very identities... Whiteness has always been predicated on blackness"), which naturally means "a positive white identity is an impossible goal."
... DiAngelo instructs us there is nothing to be done here, except "strive to be less white." To deny this theory, or to have the effrontery to sneak away from the tedium of DiAngelo's lecturing – what she describes as "leaving the stress-inducing situation" – is to affirm her conception of white supremacy. This intellectual equivalent of the "ordeal by water" (if you float, you're a witch) is orthodoxy across much of academia....
... DiAngelo's writing style is pure pain. The lexicon favored by intersectional theorists of this type is built around the same principles as Orwell's Newspeak: it banishes ambiguity, nuance, and feeling and structures itself around sterile word pairs, like racist and antiracist, platform and deplatform, center and silence, that reduce all thinking to a series of binary choices. Ironically, Donald Trump does something similar, only with words like "AMAZING!" and "SAD!" that are simultaneously more childish and livelier..
...One line of King's speech in particular—that one day he might be judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin—was seized upon by the white public because the words were seen to provide a simple and immediate solution to racial tensions: pretend that we don't see race, and racism will end. Color blindness was now promoted as the remedy for racism, with white people insisting that they didn't see race or, if they did, that it had no meaning to them...
That this speech was held up as the framework for American race relations for more than half a century precisely because people of all races understood King to be referring to a difficult and beautiful long-term goal worth pursuing is discounted, of course. White Fragility is based upon the idea that human beings are incapable of judging each other by the content of their character, and if people of different races think they are getting along or even loving one another, they probably need immediate antiracism training. This is an important passage because rejection of King's "dream" of racial harmony — not even as a description of the obviously flawed present, but as the aspirational goal of a better future — has become a central tenet of this brand of antiracist doctrine mainstream press outlets are rushing to embrace...https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility (https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility)
Not sure how I missed this news. Mother Jones publishes film of police in Minneapolis slashing tires of protestors, reporters and medics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSA4AT0N38Y
Fact checked by Snopes:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/slashed-tires-protests/
Thousands of dollars of vandalism by law enforcement. They slashed the tires of every vehicle in a K-Mart parking lot.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 02, 2020, 04:25:09 AM
Not sure how I missed this news. Mother Jones publishes film of police in Minneapolis slashing tires of protestors, reporters and medics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSA4AT0N38Y
Fact checked by Snopes:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/slashed-tires-protests/
Thousands of dollars of vandalism by law enforcement. They slashed the tires of every vehicle in a K-Mart parking lot.
I'm still wondering about Umbrella Man. St Paul PD insisted it wasn't a cop breaking windows with a mask and umbrella. But it's so suspicious. You'd think they would have caught that guy. Have you heard about this?
Minneapolis PD? Weird behavior for a dept. about to get cancelled. On the other hand, that city, a city dear to my heart, was nearly burnt to the ground by idiots.
QuoteIf your category is "white," bad news: you have no identity apart from your participation in white supremacy ("Anti-blackness is foundational to our very identities... Whiteness has always been predicated on blackness"), which naturally means "a positive white identity is an impossible goal."
I don't know what a positive white identity is supposed to be for someone opposed to identity politics. It's clear that there are ethnic identities that are positive. They don't depend on hostility to others and don't advocate for supremacy over other groups. The problem with white identity as a positive is that history tells the story, from the founding of white supremacy to present day advocates.
So I would say the news is bad for positive whiteness, but it's old news. What would it look like? Would there be a "white history" month? That might not be a good idea.
Quote from: Que on July 02, 2020, 12:59:53 AM
It's a game of words, really.... How do the concepts of racial prejudice, racial discrimination and "racism" relate?
My impression is that in Europe "racism" is the more general term covering both prejudice and discrimination.
When someone is "racist", we're referring to someone with racial prejudices and who believes in racial superiority.
Obviously an (unequal) power relation is going to be decisive for the impact of any form of prejudice.
So, if you claim that "a lot of people on the left" believe that only white people can be racist...
Are you suggesting that "they" (whoever they are are) think that (in current US society) only white people can use race against someone else in a position of power?
Or are you suggesting that "they" believe that only whites can have racial prejudices?
Q
The first one, yeah, I think that pretty much suits the new definition. And many people also don't like this redefinition- they may be liberals, conservatives, moderates, etc.who don't like it.
The traditional definition, I think, is just anyone who thinks their race is superior (and may discriminate in a bad way because of that). I'm fine with this definition, personally.
For the second one, that "only Whites can have racial prejudices," it's not that, but the idea is, say, if a black person says something "racist" against a Mexican, then it is only "bigoted" because their racial group isn't at the top of the hierarchy...
which leads to some uncomfortable assumptions about this type of thinking. To me it feels like these people are thinking that whites are superior but should never say that out loud- instead they should treat members of other races much better in order to even things out. I heard a term yesterday which is very suitable- "pity racism."
Quote from: drogulus on July 02, 2020, 06:24:05 AM
I don't know what a positive white identity is supposed to be for someone opposed to identity politics. It's clear that there are ethnic identities that are positive. They don't depend on hostility to others and don't advocate for supremacy over other groups. The problem with white identity as a positive is that history tells the story, from the founding of white supremacy to present day advocates.
So I would say the news is bad for positive whiteness, but it's old news. What would it look like? Would there be a "white history" month? That might not be a good idea.
Oh man. I don't think Matt Taibbi is arguing for white identity at all. The whole article is completely against such an idea. The idea is universal humanity. Go and read the whole article.
Quote from: milk on July 02, 2020, 06:48:37 AM
Oh man. I don't think Matt Taibbi is arguing for white identity at all. The whole article is completely against such an idea. The idea is universal humanity. Go and read the whole article.
I understand that universal humanity is an acceptable goal, and that exclusionary identities are the reason for it.
I think I would probably agree with Taibbi about the book, though with the author about the dismal prospects for a positive white identity. It looks like Taibbi objects that the author leaves no room for a positive interpretation. I don't see why there should be one. I can celebrate the achievements of European civilizations without any positive whiteness at all.
There is not a single baseball fan anywhere – literally not one, except perhaps Robin DiAngelo, I guess – who believes Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier because he "finally had what it took to play with whites." Everyone familiar with this story understands that Robinson had to be exceptional, both as a player and as a human being, to confront the racist institution known as Major League Baseball. His story has always been understood as a complex, long-developing political tale about overcoming violent systemic oppression. For DiAngelo to suggest history should re-cast Robinson as "the first black man whites allowed to play major league baseball" is grotesque and profoundly belittling.
He got that right. The book sounds terrible.
Quote from: greg on July 02, 2020, 06:34:26 AM
For the second one, that "only Whites can have racial prejudices," it's not that, but the idea is, say, if a black person says something "racist" against a Mexican, then it is only "bigoted" because their racial group isn't at the top of the hierarchy...
which leads to some uncomfortable assumptions about this type of thinking. To me it feels like these people are thinking that whites are superior but should never say that out loud- instead they should treat members of other races much better in order to even things out. I heard a term yesterday which is very suitable- "pity racism."
You studiously left out the critical word: power.
Both black people and white people can say bad things.
It becomes problematic when people who have historically had a lock on power, i.e. white people use that power against people who look different.
Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2020, 09:01:54 AM
You studiously left out the critical word: power.
Both black people and white people can say bad things.
It becomes problematic when people who have historically had a lock on power, i.e. white people use that power against people who look different.
Sure, but adding power to it completely ignores the individual. Surely going into a black neighborhood and randomly calling people slurs would go over well? Power is completely contextual based on the individual/circumstance. The ideology asserts a non-contextual, singular interpretation. Well, since whites historically have been the most powerful in the US, then a group of black people targeting and beating up a white person because that group happens to not like white people couldn't possibly be racist? Basically that's what it's saying. The only consistency in the ideology is "white bad, non-white good."
Quote from: drogulus on July 02, 2020, 06:24:05 AM
I don't know what a positive white identity is supposed to be for someone opposed to identity politics. It's clear that there are ethnic identities that are positive. They don't depend on hostility to others and don't advocate for supremacy over other groups. The problem with white identity as a positive is that history tells the story, from the founding of white supremacy to present day advocates.
So I would say the news is bad for positive whiteness, but it's old news. What would it look like? Would there be a "white history" month? That might not be a good idea.
At least as good an idea as "White Lives Matter" and :Straight Pride"
No, no, nothing wrong with what the police are doing ... just another "isolated incident"
In Tucson, another man of color ends up dead in police custody
Remember when Trump said, "But then I talked to a doctor and realized that I was wrong."?
Quote from: drogulus on July 02, 2020, 07:59:34 AM
I understand that universal humanity is an acceptable goal, and that exclusionary identities are the reason for it.
I think I would probably agree with Taibbi about the book, though with the author about the dismal prospects for a positive white identity. It looks like Taibbi objects that the author leaves no room for a positive interpretation. I don't see why there should be one. I can celebrate the achievements of European civilizations without any positive whiteness at all.
Taibbi is quoting from the book. I don't see that that's the point Taibbi is making in the article - in fact, I think he's making the opposite point. Anyway, DiAngelo almost seems like part of the right to me in her authoritarianism. She's centering being on the -ness of skin color and also using a kind of postmodern doublespeak to enforce the prejudice she wants everyone to share with her. Her vision of the world puts race at the center of everything. I can see why Taibbi compared this to an "ordeal by water." I keep seeing these memes on "white fragility" from my friends on FB and there's always a part that says disagreeing is an expression of racism. If you disagree, it's because of your race (whiteness) and if you point out that there are prominent people of color that also disagree, well, that (pointing it out) is racism too.
Quote from: milk on July 02, 2020, 01:30:44 PM
Taibbi is quoting from the book. I don't see that that's the point Taibbi is making in the article - in fact, I think he's making the opposite point. Anyway, DiAngelo almost seems like part of the right to me in her authoritarianism. She's centering being on the -ness of skin color and also using a kind of postmodern doublespeak to enforce the prejudice she wants everyone to share with her. Her vision of the world puts race at the center of everything. I can see why Taibbi compared this to an "ordeal by water." I keep seeing these memes on "white fragility" from my friends on FB and there's always a part that says disagreeing is an expression of racism. If you disagree, it's because of your race (whiteness) and if you point out that there are prominent people of color that also disagree, well, that (pointing it out) is racism too.
It's a tangle, unless one is (say) one of those Trump supporters who frankly wallow in their bigotry. Soul-searching and charity are necessary
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 02, 2020, 02:17:12 PM
It's a tangle, unless one is (say) one of those Trump supporters who frankly wallow in their bigotry. Soul-searching and charity are necessary
It is a tangle and I agree that "white" people have the luxury of not having to think about race. I feel like Americans, whether left or right, are so self-centered; they have to make everything in the world about them. This was pointed out to me by a non-American expat. I don't live in the U.S. anymore. The category of race doesn't have the same meaning in Asia - though obviously there's all kinds of racism going in all directions here.
On the other hand, I think it's obviously true that privilege exists for people who look a certain way. In Japan, blackface has been employed in a ridiculously ignorant way. I've seen Japanese people don blackface right in front of me - that's apart from some famous cases on Japanese TV.
I guess I could teach my kids that every friendship, interaction and achievement in their lives will be tempered by their non-Japanese-ness. And being part Vietnamese, I could teach them that Japanese and Americans should all be seen as exploiters, mass-killers and war-profiteers. Or that their ethnically Jewish percentage makes them victims in all interactions with Japanese, Germans, etc.
The truth is that, as individuals, they do have privileges and challenges - everyone does. I want them to be kind and seek the goodness in others and be strong enough to accept and endure the inevitable pain that also comes.
The trump people are ugly. I have someone in my family that voted tump and he's a bit apologetic now. I think he sees that his hopes were dashed. He's a veteran and a retired cop. He's the kind of person that, hopefully, will take Tump down. I don't want to see tump just lose. I want to see him and his congressional pals metaphorically stomped into electoral dust. It really is not enough for Biden to eke out victory. Tump's movement must be punished.
But after that we are going to have this poison of an ideology that blames a mass of poor, sometimes ignorant, people. The first manta of that ideology is "shut up" if you don't have an "I'm exploited" card. "shut up" and listen if you can be called "white." You cannot object to being called "white" or to being told to "shut up." They are going to loudly tell people that they are not part of any conversation. And this isn't necessarily bad for big corporations to have the focus be on divisive issues as these.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 04:44:25 PM
Ugly in what way?
Ugly in that they taut the success of white people in the U.S. without acknowledging that this success was built on hundreds of years of the labor of enslaved people, the imperialist exploitation of other cultures, and the genocide of the indigenous population.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 02, 2020, 05:34:16 PM
Ugly in that they taut the success of white people in the U.S. without acknowledging that this success was built on hundreds of years of the labor of enslaved people, the imperialist exploitation of other cultures, and the genocide of the indigenous population.
So maybe we should all just kill ourselves? What is exactly the solution?
I have been reviewing the back and forth banter and the bottom line is that conservatives who are anti-science and anti-government have been dominating American politics for twenty-five years.
Even though based on the polls I have seen, they may account for only 20 to 30% of the electorate.
I seriously doubt that more than 10% of the electorate thinks like I do. People like me have not been in charge.
Under their watch the American economy is on the verge of collapse and we are facing the worst health crises in this country in over a century.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 04:44:25 PM
Ugly in what way?
I think tump played to everyone's worst impulses.
The Obama birth-certificate was his opening salvo of race-tinged cheap crap. Yes, with a lot of the things he said, you can find a way to think it's nothing to do with race. Tump was a clever promoter of grievance and hate by continually bringing up issues of race while leaving a little wiggle room for people to get outrage when accused of playing the race card.
Maybe you can find a way to say it's just factual that Mexican Americans like Gonzalo Curiel are less able to be impartial than Scottish Americans. What I notice about tump is how often he seems to be projecting. It sounds like tump doesn't think certain categories of people can ever be as American as he with his superior "genes."
Tump used hyperbolic language (and stupid) language, like, "women are raped at levels that nobody has ever seen before..."
It matters exactly what The POTUS says, every word matters. You can't say tump is just being factual when he exaggerates everything in a way that advertises his inability to grasp topics and that is meant to make everyone as angry as possible.
No such thing as Trump being "factual," as any adult owns.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 04:44:25 PM
Ugly in what way? I think he appealed to a lot of different voter frustration in 2016, mostly legit. Some simply wanted an outsider to take charge and clean up Washington; others it was getting rid of Obamacare with something better; rebuilding America with the promise of jobs coming back and a strong economy was critical; border security, a return to law and order, reforming immigration, addressing the opioid crisis and the drug cartels was another major concern.
He failed at most of this stuff. Why? Because 1. he's doesn't understand these issues deeply 2. he doesn't understand government deeply 3. he's lazy and doesn't truly care about anything as much as golf and twitter
And do most people really want to get rid of Obamacare? I, maybe like most people, have such low confidence in government. I think getting Obamacare was a monumental achievement. Republicans have no intention of delivering anything on healthcare; Dems basically adopted earlier Republican ideas, didn't they? Isn't Obamacare a version of 80s-90s republican plans? Big money calls the shots and it's not going to let change happen - especially when Republicans are in charge. I mean change beyond just getting rid of something. Republicans seem ready to jump at the chance to make things worse - especially if that's what their donors want.
Return to law and order? As far as I can tell, crime has been going down for decades. I think Nixon called and wants his slogan back. Does tump really care about drug addicts? Nah.
Quote from: milk on July 02, 2020, 06:53:58 PM
Dems basically adopted earlier Republican ideas, didn't they?
Heritage Foundation says no. American Prospect says no.
https://prospect.org/power/no-obamacare-republican-proposal/
https://www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/commentary/dont-blame-heritage-obamacare-mandate
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 07:58:48 PM
Pretty hard to avoid teaching about the abolitionist movement and the Civil War that ended slavery.
You still see a lot of "dixie" types who deny the civil war was about slavery.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 07:58:48 PM
I am wondering if you find the millions of poor European immigrants who came here exploited since they were also white and hence guilty by birth.
I think you're right that there's nuance missing from this discussion and even disallowed by the idiocy of intersectional doublespeak.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 07:58:48 PM
Was it cultural appropriation to keep the Spanish names for the states, cities and towns after the Mexican-American war? There were indigenous names for them before the Spanish but never mind them for now.
Ha ha: I know it's a little off topic but isn't cultural appropriation one of the absolutely dumbest things to come out of woke politics? Is it even possible that anyone on a music discussion forum could fail to see the irony and foolishness of this hysteria?
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 07:58:48 PM
Was there a Nazi-like final solution or was this genocide more of a historical accident taking place over 500 years? Would you be more willing to blame the germs, bacteria, viruses and alcohol or are all white men to blame because being white equals being racist and a colonizer by default?
One more question: Have you read about the Lakoda, Apache, Aztecs and Incas? They were pretty vicious and war like. Makes me see a pattern for human behavior.....
I don't think this is logical. It is a formal logical fallacy called "you also" or "what about?" Plus, it was American policy at many points to kill indigenous populations. That's genocide. I don't think this should be about anyone today to blame but an important historical recognition and historical moral debt to that community.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 08:14:12 PM
The birth certificate thing wasn't racist, just hardball politics, like Liz Warren being ousted for being a phony Native American.
I think the comments about Mexicans were taken out of context. He never said all of them everywhere are rapists and murderers ; rather, he said the illegals coming across the border were (with some good people, as well). Is that an offensive comment? Yes, and probably not true but what drew people to Trump in the beginning was his matter of fact dealing with issues where establishment candidates would come across as fake and deliberately inoffensive not to lose votes. There is a terrible amount of crime being committed at and along the border and acknowledging that resonated. Right now his act seems to have worn thin for a lot of different reasons even in his own voter base and I'd like him to tone it down and appear a little more presidential without turning into a turd like Romney or Jeb.
Plausible deniability? Hardball politics or professional liar? Same? What is the reason for coming up with such an obvious lie and lying over and over again? I think it's to wound people and to use political rhetoric to cause pain in a community of people. I can't call your connection to Warren and analogy because it doesn't make enough sense for that.
As to the "Mexican racists," again, plausible deniability? I guess you could say he used deliberately inflammatory and racially tinged language to gain votes. I DO agree with you that America needs strong borders but Tump could have made a compromise by attempting immigration reform. But, yeah, the far left is delusional if they think, as some of them do, that borders should be abolished, the land belongs to exploited masses of some such historical group, etc. The left should compromise also: agree to stronger border and immigration enforcement for a deal on "dreamers" and such. I don't know which side is more to blame on this.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 04:44:25 PM
Ugly in what way? I think he appealed to a lot of different voter frustration in 2016, mostly legit. Some simply wanted an outsider to take charge and clean up Washington; others it was getting rid of Obamacare with something better; rebuilding America with the promise of jobs coming back and a strong economy was critical; border security, a return to law and order, reforming immigration, addressing the opioid crisis and the drug cartels was another major concern. There may be some fringe elements like the Alt Right or whoever else pinned their hopes on Trump being a savior but they have gotten too much press, imo.
f
complete and total nonsense.
Trump had three planks to his platform and made no bones about it.
What he offered to the voters was unapolegetic racism. Mexicans are rapists, Obama was no American, that stuff. People loved it.
The other two were tax cuts for the rich and stacking the courts with stooges.
That's all there was to it.
None of the things you mentioned had any interest for Trump and the GOP, so that's just an after the disaster fantasy.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 08:14:12 PM
The birth certificate thing wasn't racist, just hardball politics, like Liz Warren being ousted for being a phony Native American.
I think the comments about Mexicans were taken out of context.
It's pretty obvious where you're coming from.
It's really sad you're consistently trying to use GMG for racism whitewashing.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 04:15:31 PM
As if notions of supremacy are inimitable to white people or their celebrations of a heritage, tradition, culture or accomplishments are inherently racist because of a few bad people from yesteryear or because whites were too successful and in a modern world where equality is considered most important no one can be at the top or dominant; mediocrity is most prized.
It seems the moral and ethical standard is set unbearably high for "whiteness" while for all others there is no standard at all.
I think the standard vulgarized narrative for white supremacy has it backwards. Historically there was supremacy first (what but supremacy should one call it if tiny nations like Portugal and Holland can have huge colonial Empires at the other end of the world and a few score ruffians like Cortez' band can topple an indigenous Empire?) and afterwards "white" people came up with proto-scientific theories to explain (and of course also culturally defend and stabilize) this phenomenon and this in turn led to 19th century "scientific racism". In a way this might not only show the scientific spirit of European culture but also already indicate their bad conscience. Almost every other culture in the history of mankind kept slaves and tried to dominate neighboring cultures and usually sheer power was sufficient justification: The strong do what they want and the weak suffer what they must. (Thucydides) (Even today it is an exception: Just look at the expression of Japanese or Turkish responsibility for their early 20th century genocides compared to Western European guilt.)
There is nothing historical special about imperialism and slave-holding. The historically rather special thing was a bad conscience for such things and abolition and turning imperialism into a supposedly humanitarian enterprise (aka "White Man's Burden").
Quote from: Jo498 on July 02, 2020, 11:57:04 PM
I think the standard vulgarized narrative for white supremacy has it backwards. Historically there was supremacy first (what but supremacy should one call it if tiny nations like Portugal and Holland can have huge colonial Empires at the other end of the world and a few score ruffians like Cortez' band can topple an indigenous Empire?) and afterwards "white" people came up with proto-scientific theories to explain (and of course also culturally defend and stabilize) this phenomenon and this in turn led to 19th century "scientific racism". In a way this might not only show the scientific spirit of European culture but also already indicate their bad conscience. Almost every other culture in the history of mankind kept slaves and tried to dominate neighboring cultures and usually sheer power was sufficient justification: The strong do what they want and the weak suffer what they must. (Thucydides) (Even today it is an exception: Just look at the expression of Japanese or Turkish responsibility for their early 20th century genocides compared to Western European guilt.)
There is nothing historical special about imperialism and slave-holding. The historically rather special thing was a bad conscience for such things and abolition and turning imperialism into a supposedly humanitarian enterprise (aka "White Man's Burden").
I'm not an expert on this but are you saying that the Japanese DIDN'T consider themselves the master race and DIDN'T treat their imperial subjects as subhuman?
Quote from: milk on July 03, 2020, 02:44:35 AM
I'm not an expert on this but are you saying that the Japanese DIDN'T consider themselves the master race and DIDN'T treat their imperial subjects as subhuman?
No, I think
Jo meant that the Japanese don't feel guilty about it.
Unlike Western Europe, he said. Which IMO is only true if you limit that to Germany.
I've seen very little awareness or regret in other countries, including my own....
Portugal, with its citizen offer to descendents of persecuted Sephardic Jews, might be the other exception.
In fact, the whole BLM has triggered a long overdue debate about our colonial past and its atrocities, and the prominent Dutch role in the international slave trade.
Nobody needs to punish himself for crimes of the past, but owning up to the facts and trying to make amends is the least any civilised society can do.
Q
Quote from: Que on July 03, 2020, 02:57:10 AM
No, I think Jo meant that the Japanese don't feel guilty about it.
Unlike Western Europe, he said. Which IMO is only true if you limit that to Germany.
I've seen very little awareness or regret in other countries, including my own....
Portugal, with its citizen offer to descendents of persecuted Sephardic Jews, might be the other exception.
In fact, the whole BLM has triggered a long overdue debate about our colonial past and its atrocities, and the prominent Dutch role in the international slave trade.
Nobody needs to punish himself for crimes of the past, but owning up to the facts and trying to make amends is the least any civilised society can do.
Q
Right I don't think scientific racism came from a bad conscience at all. Maybe "rationalization" is better. And Let's not forget one notable group of victims of "scientific racism": Jewish people. I don't think the word "conscience" applies anywhere in their destruction. But living in Japan, I agree that there is not a sense of historical guilt or responsibility. Anyway, I'm getting off USA politics.
Quote from: Dowder on July 03, 2020, 04:16:05 AM
LOL. An arrogant and condescending guy from Holland lecturing me about why I voted for Trump. You don't really understand the average supporter of his or American politics if you believe that nonsense. It's really sad how simplistic and unfair your characterizations are. I don't understand you at all, Herm.
I'm curious though if you think that tump appeals to racists in an uncomfortable way? I was saying before that my cousin voted for tump and I think he regrets it. He's a vet and a retired cop. I don't think he'll vote tump again. Would you really feel comfortable at one of those rallies? You really don't think tump was trying to appeal to hate in order to win? I'm curious to hear a non-what-about answer.
Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2020, 11:05:13 PM
It's pretty obvious where you're coming from.
It's really sad you're consistently trying to use GMG for racism whitewashing.
So much white grievance, so little time.
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 04:15:31 PM
So "whiteness" has to be cancelled? How inclusive.
As if notions of supremacy are inimitable to white people or their celebrations of a heritage, tradition, culture or accomplishments are inherently racist because of a few bad people from yesteryear or because whites were too successful and in a modern world where equality is considered most important no one can be at the top or dominant; mediocrity is most prized.
It seems the moral and ethical standard is set unbearably high for "whiteness" while for all others there is no standard at all.
Just so much whining.
Quote from: greg on July 02, 2020, 05:51:10 PM
So maybe we should all just kill ourselves? What is exactly the solution?
Solution? The problem I pointed out is people touting white success in the U.S. in apparent ignorance of the fact that the industrialization of the U.S. was built on, among other things, the labor of the enslaved. (Cotton, the textile industry, the shipping industry built on moving its products, etc.) The solution is easy: Stop claiming that U.S. success is a white achievement (alone) and acknowledge the unrewarded work and suffering that made it possible. It's not difficult.
Quote from: Que on July 03, 2020, 02:57:10 AMNobody needs to punish himself for crimes of the past, but owning up to the facts and trying to make amends is the least any civilised society can do.
The least any civilized society can do is nothing at all. Making amends is a preferred solution for some, but not all, members of various civilized societies. The important question here is what does "trying to make amends" mean in practical terms?
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 03, 2020, 05:24:05 AMStop claiming that U.S. success is a white achievement (alone)
Who makes such claims on this forum?
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 07:58:48 PM
Pretty hard to avoid teaching about the abolitionist movement and the Civil War that ended slavery. I am wondering if you find the millions of poor European immigrants who came here exploited since they were also white and hence guilty by birth.
I called you out for the claim that modern America is a white success because you ignored the labor of the enslaved and the subjugated on which it was built. I never assigned guilt to white people! You made that leap yourself. The what-aboutism implicating other races with which you responded suggests you feel the need to defend the white race. Don't blame me for your apparent guilt feelings.
Quote from: Todd link=topic=29894.msg1302600#msg1302600 date=1593783197
Who makes such claims on this forum?
/quote]
Quote from: Dowder on July 02, 2020, 04:15:31 PM
So "whiteness" has to be cancelled? How inclusive.
As if notions of supremacy are inimitable to white people or their celebrations of a heritage, tradition, culture or accomplishments are inherently racist because of a few bad people from yesteryear or because whites were too successful and in a modern world where equality is considered most important no one can be at the top or dominant; mediocrity is most prized.
It seems the moral and ethical standard is set unbearably high for "whiteness" while for all others there is no standard at all.
The selected quote from Dowder doesn't cut it.
"I'm not quite sure what you call a man who does not care if his fellow citizens live or die. But he isn't a patriot."
Trump's Mt. Rushmore Patriotpalooza (https://thebulwark.com/about-trumps-mt-rushmore-patriot-palooza/)
"The Pew Research Center asked people to rate the actions that [make] one a good citizen."
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 03, 2020, 05:24:05 AM
The solution is easy: Stop claiming that U.S. success is a white achievement (alone) and acknowledge the unrewarded work and suffering that made it possible. It's not difficult.
Also it wouldn't hurt to stop the racist dog whistles, like saying there are too many "grifters" at Dem gatherings = black people.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 03, 2020, 05:57:28 AM
Trump's Mt. Rushmore Patriotpalooza (https://thebulwark.com/about-trumps-mt-rushmore-patriot-palooza/)
Ah, yes, Mt Rushmore. Looks like some people want that to go: South Dakota tribal leader joins call to remove Mount Rushmore ahead of Trump visit (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/30/mount-rushmore-cheyenne-sioux-river-tribe-removal-harold-frazier/5350231002/)
As luck would have it, the US is conducting negotiations with the Taliban. Perhaps as part of any deal with them - provided a deal is not derailed by revelations that those dastardly Russians did naughty things again - US leftists could tap Taliban experts in destroying mountainside statues.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 06:05:01 AM
Also it wouldn't hurt to stop the racist dog whistles, like saying there are too many "grifters" at Dem gatherings = black people.
Oh, and as to that buzzword "heritage" ... There's nothing like venerating traitorous white nationalists to remind decent Americans we have a problem with systematic racism.
From the Graun:
Why Republicans are desperate to keep the white status quo as it disintegrates
By 2045, a majority of the population will be people of color, which will enable them to have a transformative political impact (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/03/why-republicans-are-desperate-to-keep-the-white-status-quo-as-it-disintegrates)
This is the type of simplistic, op-ed level analysis of racial politics from leftists that I adore. A quick perusal of Census Bureau and other demographic projections does show that non-Hispanic whites (which has a bit broader definition than some people may typically believe) will lose majority status mid-century. But whites will still be, by far, the largest group in the country, by around twenty percentage points. Divide and conquer politics, including shameless race-baiting (by both parties!) will intensify in the coming decades. The careful statistical parsing of ethnic groups, and ethnic sub-groups, and ethnic sub-sub-groups will become ever more sophisticated, ads ever more targeted, messaging ever more specific and contextualized (dog whistles!). Trump is only the beginning.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 06:05:01 AM
Also it wouldn't hurt to stop the racist dog whistles, like saying there are too many "grifters" at Dem gatherings = black people.
Just read in a related piece: Maya Angelou's famous dictum—"when someone shows you who they are, believe them"
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 03, 2020, 06:44:08 AM
Just read in a related piece: Maya Angelou's famous dictum—"when someone shows you who they are, believe them"
What happens when the observer in Ms Angelou's famous dictum is clueless and doesn't comprehend what he/she/they are witnessing?
Putin's bitch: "We have seen a familiar pattern of deflection and misdirection on this scandal. First, Trump was not "briefed." (Well, he was briefed through the PDB.) But it was a hoax. (Then why was it in the PDB?) The upshot is that Trump, to this day, has taken no action in defense of our troops. At a time when the Kremlin was placing bounties on the heads of our servicemen and women, he was calling for Russia to be let into the Group of Seven."
Although, of course, as we see hear, some are happy to lap up the Crybaby-in-Chief's misinformation:
Trump churns out a host of misleading claims about immigration. His message has fallen on deaf ears. "Nearly 8 in ten (77%) Americans think immigration is a good thing for their country," Gallup reports. Even more striking is the attitude among Republicans. "When measured in this more general sense, public support for immigration shows far less of a partisan divide, and both parties express a more generally positive view of immigration."
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 06:05:01 AM
Also it wouldn't hurt to stop the racist dog whistles, like saying there are too many "grifters" at Dem gatherings = black people.
I think you're wrong there. The Right uses the term as a more general idea that includes anyone who is a prominent Democrat or progressive. So Pelosi, Sanders, and the Young Turks are grifters. Sharpton and Kaepernick, of course...but because of their outspokenness and prominence. They are "grifters" who happen to be black.
Quote from: milk on July 03, 2020, 04:23:34 AM
Right I don't think scientific racism came from a bad conscience at all. Maybe "rationalization" is better. And Let's not forget one notable group of victims of "scientific racism": Jewish people. I don't think the word "conscience" applies anywhere in their destruction.
The Jews are maybe the clearest example of "scientific racism" being a late rationalization. Because obviously there was religious discrimination and persecution of them in Europe for hundreds of years before modern racism was thought of. This was sometimes bad but it was completely "anti-racial". After one generation it was not relevant anymore that the grandparents had been baptized Jews. This is the opposite of the Nazi-style pedigree racism.
As for the "bad consience", this is obviously somewhat speculative. But it does not seem totally insignificant that a quasi-scientific rationalization was needed in the first place, if many cultures in history were fine with "might makes right" in the case of empire and slavery. The need for rationalizing and a somewhat bad conscience is totally obvious in the case of the milder Imperialism of today ("democratization" etc.), so I don't think it was completely different in the 17th-19th centuries.
Who Owns the Republican Party? (https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/who-owns-the-republican-party-now/)
"I say this all the time, but it's worth saying again: Not every—or even most!—Trump supporters are racists. But just about every racist is a Trump supporter. And these folks aren't just reluctantly onboard with Trump because he's the only alternative to give them the Supreme Court picks they want. No siree. The more virulent the racist is, the stronger his support for Trump is. Go to Twitter. Look at the Pepe's and the dudes with the laser eyes and the people with Stars 'n' Bars flying in their profile pics.
Or if you prefer, go to Parler and see what these people look like when they're off the leash."
Some purely local entertainment: Iconic Portland elk statue removed from downtown after fire set during protest (https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/iconic-portland-elk-statue-removed-from-downtown-after-fire-set-during-protest.html)
I hate racist elk.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 03, 2020, 05:24:05 AM
Solution? The problem I pointed out is people touting white success in the U.S. in apparent ignorance of the fact that the industrialization of the U.S. was built on, among other things, the labor of the enslaved. (Cotton, the textile industry, the shipping industry built on moving its products, etc.) The solution is easy: Stop claiming that U.S. success is a white achievement (alone) and acknowledge the unrewarded work and suffering that made it possible. It's not difficult.
Literally no one is claiming that. Glad we could move on.
Guess I can stop checking my privilege now that that assumption has been cleared.
Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2020, 11:02:33 PM
What he offered to the voters was unapolegetic racism. Mexicans are rapists, Obama was no American, that stuff. People loved it.
Is this supposed to be the famous "Mexican rapists" quote?
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-37230916/drug-dealers-criminals-rapists-what-trump-thinks-of-mexicans
He's talking about gangs that come to the US from Mexico who are violent criminals. Are we supposed to ignore their existence in order to be politically correct? And why is what he's saying is interpreted as "all Mexicans are rapists?"
Nothing about "Obama was no American" was racist, either. Obama is one person. Obama isn't a race. I think the accusations against Obama are dumb, but that's besides the point.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 06:05:01 AM
Also it wouldn't hurt to stop the racist dog whistles, like saying there are too many "grifters" at Dem gatherings = black people.
So you interpret "grifters" as black people. Got it.
Considering how Trump and race is being bantered about, maybe I should repeat something.
I realize this is anecdotal.
The vast majority of the people I know who voted for Trump are not racist.
One of the big issues we differ with them is I am pro-choice.
I do know a few racists and every one of them voted for Trump.
It appears that most Trump supporters are in a bit of a moral dilemma. He did not win the popular vote. He won the election because he won by a very narrow margin in three key states: Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. I think the margin in those three states was less than 100,000 votes. 62,000,000 voted for Trump. It seems safe to assume that a few million of those were racist. I think deep down in there hearts they realize that if it was not for the racists support, Trump would have lost.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 03, 2020, 12:32:44 PM
Considering how Trump and race is being bantered about, maybe I should repeat something.
I realize this is anecdotal.
The vast majority of the people I know who voted for Trump are not racist.
One of the big issues we differ with them is I am pro-choice.
I do know a few racists and every one of them voted for Trump.
It appears that most Trump supporters are in a bit of a moral dilemma. He did not win the popular vote. He won the election because he won by a very narrow margin in three key states: Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. I think the margin in those three states was less than 100,000 votes. 62,000,000 voted for Trump. It seems safe to assume that a few million of those were racist. I think deep down in there hearts they realize that if it was not for the racists support, Trump would have lost.
IMO two parties just aren't enough for a country which has a lot of diversity in opinions.
Liberals can vote for Obama but then get called commies. Conservatives can vote for Trump then get called racists. There should be more parties, even the wildly unpopular ones. Then we can disentangle the nutcases from the reasonable people more easily.
Quote from: greg on July 03, 2020, 01:17:09 PM
IMO two parties just aren't enough for a country which has a lot of diversity in opinions.
Liberals can vote for Obama but then get called commies. Conservatives can vote for Trump then get called racists. There should be more parties, even the wildly unpopular ones. Then we can disentangle the nutcases from the reasonable people more easily.
Please. I did not say that the majority of those who voted for Trump are racist. I will repeat, the majority of those I know who voted for Trump are not racist.
Same would be true with your "commies" reference. Most of the people who voted for Obama are not "commies". But most of the few "commies" I do know voted for him.
One issue I know of that the majority of Democrats believe in that upsets Republicans is that we are overwhelmingly pro-choice.
Quote from: greg on July 03, 2020, 11:49:48 AM
Literally no one is claiming that. Glad we could move on.
Guess I can stop checking my privilege now that that assumption has been cleared.
Is this supposed to be the famous "Mexican rapists" quote?
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-37230916/drug-dealers-criminals-rapists-what-trump-thinks-of-mexicans
He's talking about gangs that come to the US from Mexico who are violent criminals. Are we supposed to ignore their existence in order to be politically correct? And why is what he's saying is interpreted as "all Mexicans are rapists?"
Nothing about "Obama was no American" was racist, either. Obama is one person. Obama isn't a race. I think the accusations against Obama are dumb, but that's besides the point.
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
Just as his surrogates and other apologists do you can take any one of his seemingly racist comments and parse the words to the point where its at least ambiguous if he was being racist. But the point is that near all of his hundreds of comments on or connected to race include the same racist undertone, if not overtly racist are built from some racist assumption, and each requires the same later parsing. Standing back and looking at his comments as a group you'll see all the indicators point the same "potentially racist/ requires clarification" direction.
Quote from: greg on July 03, 2020, 01:17:09 PMThere should be more parties, even the wildly unpopular ones.
Dems and Republicans both benefit from the two party system. Both do their darnedest to perpetuate it. Do not expect it to change in your lifetime.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 03, 2020, 02:48:11 PM
Please. I did not say that the majority of those who voted for Trump are racist. I will repeat, the majority of those I know who voted for Trump are not racist.
Same would be true with your "commies" reference. Most of the people who voted for Obama are not "commies". But most of the few "commies" I do know voted for him.
One issue I know of that the majority of Democrats believe in that upsets Republicans is that we are overwhelmingly pro-choice.
I'm not saying you are saying that. I'm saying other people are not making these distinctions and lumping in the radicals with the normies just because there's only two options to vote from, and both the radicals and normies will vote for the same guy.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 03, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
Just as his surrogates and other apologists do you can take any one of his seemingly racist comments and parse the words to the point where its at least ambiguous if he was being racist. But the point is that near all of his hundreds of comments on or connected to race include the same racist undertone, if not overtly racist are built from some racist assumption, and each requires the same later parsing. Standing back and looking at his comments as a group you'll see all the indicators point the same "potentially racist/ requires clarification" direction.
Is his saying (many times) that he's proud that black unemployment was at an all-time low also racist? What do people think about those comments in general? Because if he has a pattern of saying stuff that is "potentially racist" then says something that is the complete opposite, where does the balance of the scales end up?
Quote from: Dowder on July 03, 2020, 04:49:25 AM
I think it's totally unfair to characterize Trump's appeal as racist, same as the earlier Tea Party. It's a way to dismiss the valid reasons people had for identifying with the TP and MAGA over issues dealing with immigration, the border, narco trafficking, competition for jobs, etc.
Would I feel comfortable at one of those rallies? Absolutely, as most of the people attending are good, hard working Americans. I think a lot of the people attending a Biden rally are probably the same kind of good folks, with a higher percentage of grifters, free loaders and special interests because the Dems historic behavior of promising free stuff and appealing to "oppressed" sub cultures.
If this were true they would have supported a Republican primary candidate who had a plan, and the knowledge and experience for dealing with "immigration, the border, narco trafficking, competition for jobs, etc." Instead they went with Mr. HateSpeech.
If you were at one of these rallies would you be chanting "lock her up" along with the rest? Each contains a Two Minutes Hate at the area for the journalists - would you turn when told and yell and spit along with the rest? Are the people who do so just "good, hard working Americans"?
Quote from: greg on July 03, 2020, 02:59:53 PM
Is his saying (many times) that he's proud that black unemployment was at an all-time low also racist? What do people think about those comments in general? Because if he has a pattern of saying stuff that is "potentially racist" then says something that is the complete opposite, where does the balance of the scales end up?
As with other aspects of the recently healthy economy he's taking credit for the work of his predecessor.
You know, "The Kenyan" (subtext: "go back to the jungle where you came from".)
(https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/media:bba1835ca6914355bacb45e51ebc2659/800.jpeg)
Quote from: greg on July 03, 2020, 02:59:53 PM
I'm not saying you are saying that. I'm saying other people are not making these distinctions and lumping in the radicals with the normies just because there's only two options to vote from, and both the radicals and normies will vote for the same guy.
I apologize. I misunderstood the point you were trying to make.
Just finished one unusually poor article on Politico to then stumble on this:
Tucker Carlson 2024? The GOP is buzzing
The Fox News host's ratings have gone gangbusters, and many Republicans think he'd be a force in a Republican primary. (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/02/tucker-carlson-2024-republicans-348334)
Quote from: greg on July 03, 2020, 11:49:48 AM
Nothing about "Obama was no American" was racist, either. Obama is one person. Obama isn't a race. I think the accusations against Obama are dumb, but that's besides the point.
I call that bizarrely naive, and it does not rise to the level of an argument. The whole birther premise is racist, and plays to racists. Not going to spell it out for you.
Quote from: Dowder on July 03, 2020, 04:49:25 AM
I think it's totally unfair to characterize Trump's appeal as racist, same as the earlier Tea Party. It's a way to dismiss the valid reasons people had for identifying with the TP and MAGA over issues dealing with immigration, the border, narco trafficking, competition for jobs, etc.
Would I feel comfortable at one of those rallies? Absolutely, as most of the people attending are good, hard working Americans. I think a lot of the people attending a Biden rally are probably the same kind of good folks, with a higher percentage of grifters, free loaders and special interests because the Dems historic behavior of promising free stuff and appealing to "oppressed" sub cultures.
to be fair, I'd be uncomfortable at any kind of rally.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 03, 2020, 03:32:40 PM
I apologize. I misunderstood the point you were trying to make.
No problem. I'm not the clearest of communicators. :)
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 03, 2020, 03:08:24 PM
As with other aspects of the recently healthy economy he's taking credit for the work of his predecessor.
That may be true. I don't know, I don't get into economic details.
The point of my question is, if he were racist, part of which involves
wishing the worst on a different race (if this is an incorrect assumption, let me know), why would he be happy that the race that he is supposedly "against" is successful (pre-Covid)? And that he helped in that success? (or claims to, like you say, how much of that is due to him is debatable)
The problem with the other stuff he says is that he is kinda inarticulate, so he's an easy target for this. I could go onto length about this, but the distinction between abstract vs. lexical thinking is very real, and he falls into the area subject to misinterpretation... (just think of how many different ways the slogan of MAGA could be interpreted, for the better or for the worse)
Biden also is a clumsy speaker, for different reasons, though. The "if you don't vote for me, you aren't black" could also be misinterpreted as racism. I think maybe all of us shouldn't be so quick to interpret stuff like that a certain way just because they are in the opposite party that you like, maybe?
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 03, 2020, 03:08:24 PM
You know, "The Kenyan" (subtext: "go back to the jungle where you came from".)
Eh... never heard of this insult, but again, "subtext" is just subjective interpretation, not something he actually said. Seems like people
want him to be racist. Gotta dehumanize the enemy first in order to drive motivation to win.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 03, 2020, 04:42:07 PM
I call that bizarrely naive, and it does not rise to the level of an argument. The whole birther premise is racist, and plays to racists. Not going to spell it out for you.
There is a need to spell it out, though. Why is it not interpreted as "we suspect this guy was born outside the US, and you have to be born in the US to be president?" and nothing else?
Is it because some racists like it? Or is it because the idea itself is racist?
Quote from: arpeggio on July 03, 2020, 02:48:11 PM
Please. I did not say that the majority of those who voted for Trump are racist.
I'll say it, then!
Quote from: greg on July 03, 2020, 04:46:05 PM
The point of my question is, if he were racist, part of which involves wishing the worst on a different race (if this is an incorrect assumption, let me know), why would he be happy that the race that he is supposedly "against" is successful (pre-Covid)? And that he helped in that success?
Thinking a group of people aren't as good - and trying to take credit for their supposed betterment, these are not mutually exclusive. Throw in that tump is often incoherent. I doubt tump is happy about much. He seems like an unhappy person who gets some gratification when he feels he's insulted someone.
Plus he needs their vote - or at least a portion of it. If he could be president with only the white vote he wouldn't be going around saying the ridiculous "nobody has done more for black Americans than Donald J Trump", he'd be saying just the "they're coming to get you / rape your women" stuff.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 03, 2020, 05:01:50 PM
Plus he needs their vote - or at least a portion of it. If he could be president with only the white vote he wouldn't be going around saying the ridiculous "nobody has done more for black Americans than Donald J Trump", he'd be saying just the "they're coming to get you / rape your women" stuff.
Any GOP noise on race has always been more about reassuring Republican voters that they are not bad people. I don't think the GOP has cared about the black vote since the 60s.
Greg, what you're doing is spending days formulating, in an excruciatingly inept fashion, apologetics for an out and out racist, i.e. Trump.
Your argument that Trump's birtherism was not racist because Obama is not a race but a person is crazy. I don't know how you get yourself to type that kind of nonsense but it looks very very bad.
Your argument that Trump's cynical bragging about black employment looking good (for about three days, and then it was bad again) doesn't cut it either. Trump has been told, day in day out, that it would help him to peel off some black votes from the Dems. That's why he says a thing like this, without the slightest honesty.
People in New York City are not deluded about Trump (as you are). Look at the case of the Central Park Five. Trump took out big ads in papers to call for the death penalty for five kids who just happened to black. Even after it was proven they were not guilty, he kept arguing they should be killed. Just because they were black.
He still believes so. And it reminds one of one of the scary things about this current president. It gives him a thrill if people get killed (as long as it's not him). He doesn't give a rat's ass about 130.000 people dying on his negligent watch. It increases his feeling of self-worth.
This is a man who calls during a rally: "Where is my black guy?" because they had planted one black guy in the crowd.
Trump of course did not win the popular vote, so he only 'won' the elections on a technicality. It's the Republican way. Republicans haven't won the popular vote in a generation, and this will get worse. ("Russia, if you're listening...?) However he did get as many votes as he did because of pent up anger among uneducated low-info white voters (lookin' familiar?), angry that Obama, a sophisticated black guy, had been president for two terms and had done spectacularly well. Voting for an racist idiot like Trump was the response of millions of these voters. Trump did not have any realistic policy proposals. He doesn't have any now. He runs on racist anger and "owning the libs", pure and simple. That's why I disagree with the pious notion that many Trump voters or rally goers are not racists. Trumps speeches are full with racist dog whistles and the crowds respond ecstatically to them. He's the guy who says the things that cannot say out loud.
Quote from: Daverz on July 03, 2020, 04:54:30 PM
I'll say it, then!
You may be correct. I live in Fairfax County, Virginia which has a very cosmopolitan population base.
Maybe the majority of the whites in Lee County, Virginia are racists. I do not know.
Quote from: Dowder on July 04, 2020, 03:48:06 AM
One thing I'll say: I never saw Obama as black but biracial. His mother was white, he was raised primarily by her parents and later had an Indonesian stepdad. Now he lives on Martha's Vineyard or wherever other rich white people live and is supposedly writing his memoirs that only paid him 75 million. I think Barack has more in common with the Trumps than he does with the average black voter.
How would Barack Obama have been treated at almost any time in history in America? How would he have been treated in Mississippi in 1958? Would he have been excluded from white bathrooms and water fountains half the time? Or how about his treatment in 1858? Or 1758? Or Boston in 1968? I think you are not thinking this through. A lot of people, not you but a lot, are making this kind of argument dishonestly, i.e. Obama isn't really black.
Of course saying Obama isn't black is another form of racism. The master race decides how to call the subject.
Obama was the first black president and that's the way he presented himself.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 09:18:35 PMTrump of course did not win the popular vote, so he only 'won' the elections on a technicality. It's the Republican way.
Trump won the Electoral College vote, which is the constitutionally mandated way to win the Presidency. It is, in fact, the Republican way to adhere to the Constitution. Facts are sometimes inconvenient things.
So why is Trump always saying he really won the popular vote?
Because he craves that legitimacy.
Quote from: Herman on July 04, 2020, 06:27:03 AM
So why is Trump always saying he really won the popular vote?
Because he craves that legitimacy.
Meh. Trump won the only election that counts when it comes to the presidency. Online psychoanalysis means nothing.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 03, 2020, 04:25:56 PM
Just finished one unusually poor article on Politico to then stumble on this:
Tucker Carlson 2024? The GOP is buzzing
The Fox News host's ratings have gone gangbusters, and many Republicans think he'd be a force in a Republican primary. (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/02/tucker-carlson-2024-republicans-348334)
Oh god, I hope not. One nativist, racist reactionary was more than enough. Do they really want another one?
Quote from: Dowder on July 04, 2020, 07:03:35 AMObama in many ways reflects what America will look like in the next 30 years, a pot more racially mixed than melted of Europeans. He can identify as whatever he wishes as he has said he sees himself as a black man despite the obvious white privilege.
The US will become more Hispanic (white and non-white) in the next 30 years. The black population will increase about one percentage point. The foreign born population as a percentage of the total will exceed the level of 1850 later this decade under existing immigration laws, and will continue to increase to roughly 17% of the population in 2060. At around the same time, there will be three dependents for every four workers. (This all supposes you think the Census Bureau is a reliable and trustworthy source of demographic projections.) Racial politics - and generational politics! - will become more important as the facts on the ground change. For my money, transfer spending is a more important topic, so generational politics should become relatively more intense as grandma and grandpa keep stealing from younger generations.
Quote from: Dowder on July 04, 2020, 07:07:34 AM
No, it's a fact: he had a white mama. Hence biracial and we should celebrate that identity, too, if we are anti-racists. If Michelle runs in 2024 and wins she'll be the first black president (black mama, black papa).
Let's not forget that under the prevailing mindset of the mid 20th Century, and well after, to be biracial was to be black.
Let's not forget that a significant number of people born into slavery before 1865 had a white free father and a black slave mother. Being biracial did not save them from slavery.
It's probably fair to say that the idea of being "biracial" is in fact a very modern concept.
Quote from: JBS on July 04, 2020, 07:36:19 AMLet's not forget that under the prevailing mindset of the mid 20th Century, and well after, to be biracial was to be black.
It took only one drop to be black.
With Obama, one is faced with something of a conundrum: either one accepts the fact that he is biracial, or one clings to the blatantly and violently racist one drop rule that used to prevail and states definitively that he is black.
Quote from: JBS on July 04, 2020, 07:36:19 AM
Let's not forget that a significant number of people born into slavery before 1865 had a white free father and a black slave mother. Being biracial did not save them from slavery.
Bingo. Most of the people whom our board's iffy guys would call black, or scum, have some white progenitors, too. But that is, of course, one of America's dirty little secrets.
Quote from: Herman on July 04, 2020, 07:44:26 AMBut that is, of course, one of America's dirty little secrets.
To whom is it secret? Oh, yes, the internet is rotten with platitudes.
Quote from: milk on July 03, 2020, 04:55:19 PM
Thinking a group of people aren't as good - and trying to take credit for their supposed betterment, these are not mutually exclusive. Throw in that tump is often incoherent. I doubt tump is happy about much. He seems like an unhappy person who gets some gratification when he feels he's insulted someone.
A teeny gibbering worm.
Quote from: milk on July 03, 2020, 04:55:19 PM
Thinking a group of people aren't as good - and trying to take credit for their supposed betterment, these are not mutually exclusive. Throw in that tump is often incoherent. I doubt tump is happy about much. He seems like an unhappy person who gets some gratification when he feels he's insulted someone.
Rock-solid key with Trump is zero-sum thinking.
He needs people to be worse off in order to feel better himself.
In the case of PoC that's just absolute, since he hates black people.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 09:18:35 PM
Greg, what you're doing is spending days formulating, in an excruciatingly inept fashion, apologetics for an out and out racist, i.e. Trump.
Do you know what logic is? Do you know what testing for consistency is? No. You only know tribalism. I don't give a fuck about Trump. I'm testing your logic and consistency. Saying I'm apologetic for a racist, when I'm questioning why you think he's racist is just admitting you don't have an answer. Which I already knew to begin with, since this ideology just does not add up.
However, I like to keep testing to see if things can add up logically, but time and time again they simply don't. The leftist selling point for me has to be logical consistency, and that just keeps on failing.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 09:18:35 PM
Your argument that Trump's cynical bragging about black employment looking good (for about three days, and then it was bad again) doesn't cut it either. Trump has been told, day in day out, that it would help him to peel off some black votes from the Dems. That's why he says a thing like this, without the slightest honesty.
Everyone wants black votes, because they are votes. Democrat, Republican, etc. that's besides the point.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 09:18:35 PM
He still believes so. And it reminds one of one of the scary things about this current president. It gives him a thrill if people get killed (as long as it's not him). He doesn't give a rat's ass about 130.000 people dying on his negligent watch. It increases his feeling of self-worth.
This is a man who calls during a rally: "Where is my black guy?" because they had planted one black guy in the crowd.
This is a lot of very negative assumptions. Tribalism.
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 09:18:35 PM
He's the guy who says the things that cannot say out loud.
Can you read minds? Do you really think Trump thinks before he speaks? Or spends a lot of time thinking? Or has some secret racist code that only certain people understand? Doesn't this sound somewhat conspiracy-level weird?
Nope, because he is on the other team. Boo team!
Quote from: Herman on July 03, 2020, 09:18:35 PM
Greg, what you're doing is spending days formulating, in an excruciatingly inept fashion, apologetics for an out and out racist, i.e. Trump.
Just one more thought: this is what is called a "circular argument," right?
It starts with me posting the question as to why Trump is perceived as racist, then the response is that asking that is apologetics for his racism.
I first learned about that term reading debates on religion. So yeah... probably why people are starting to perceive this ideology as a religion. (especially on the left, where a lot of people are atheists and might need something to "fill the void")... of course, that point is just a guess, don't take that speculation too seriously.
Quote from: Todd on July 04, 2020, 06:13:14 AM
Trump won the Electoral College vote, which is the constitutionally mandated way to win the Presidency. It is, in fact, the Republican way to adhere to the Constitution. Facts are sometimes inconvenient things.
We know that based on the system in place TRUMP WON THE ELECTION.
A few months ago on
Real Time there was a conservative on the panel who claimed that the liberals did not accept the results of the election. The rest of the liberals on the show kept stating that that was not true. They acknowledge that TRUMP WON. (They also spent time debunking many false impressions that conservatives have embraced concerning liberals.)
This is another example of accusing liberals of something they are not.
The poit is not "the iberals," who acknowledge Trump's constitutional victory. The point is Trump's infantile need to inflate the victory: "a landslide""I actually won the popular vote" "a bigger crowd at my inauguration than [the black guy]"
And the Trump boot-lickers who both bask in his inflationary disinformation, and figure if they do the same, it somehow serves as an "argument."
An emblem of the problem
Officers fired over selfie that reenacted chokehold used on Elijah McClain (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/07/03/nation/cop-who-stopped-elijah-mcclain-fired-over-response-photos/)
QuoteUsing footage from body-worn cameras, we analyze the respectfulness of police officer language toward white and black community members during routine traffic stops. We develop computational linguistic methods that extract levels of respect automatically from transcripts, informed by a thin-slicing study of participant ratings of officer utterances. We find that officers speak with consistently less respect toward black versus white community members, even after controlling for the race of the officer, the severity of the infraction, the location of the stop, and the outcome of the stop. Such disparities in common, everyday interactions between police and the communities they serve have important implications for procedural justice and the building of police–community trust.
https://www.pnas.org/content/114/25/6521?fbclid=IwAR1hPlayN9Yh6Cfr1HPBJ66p3DFXOw6SjpaToGpiOqsxefI2teBXSSsz4f4
Quote from: BWV 1080 on July 04, 2020, 03:12:54 PM
https://www.pnas.org/content/114/25/6521?fbclid=IwAR1hPlayN9Yh6Cfr1HPBJ66p3DFXOw6SjpaToGpiOqsxefI2teBXSSsz4f4
Thanks.
Karl,
You have consistently done a better job of expressing my feelings than I do.
Thanks
Quote from: milk on July 01, 2020, 07:15:56 PM
My friend's aunt posted this to her FB page (you can never underestimate stupidity):
"ANTIFA / TERRORIST ATTACK PLAN ON 4th OF JULY:
PLEASE be aware this July 4....... 30,000 members per state...many trained by radical Islam - plan on killing as many Trump supporters and whites as possible!!
ANTIFA To Desecrate Gettysburg National Cemetery on July 4 - Then MURDER & BURN White Suburbs under cover of "Fireworks" ANTIFA is planning to desecrate the Gettysburg National Cemetery by burning flags there on July 4; just before they begin MURDERING White people and BURNING DOWN Suburbs the same day. It will start at the desecration of Union Solder graves at Gettysburg, Pa. According to the Controlled Unclassified Law Enforcement Bulletin issued as "Law Enforcement Sensitive - For Official Use Only" to Police and Fire Departments about ANTIFA already using fireworks to acclimate suburbia with sounds of explosions, so they can use those to cover for gun fire when they attack white, suburban, neighborhoods the same day. According to Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI) in a Bulletin issued to Police and Fire Departments, ANTIFA has been taking deliveries of very large shipments of professional-grade fireworks. They have been sending teams out to various areas throughout America to detonate those fireworks for the past two weeks, to achieve"
And when prophesy fails?
I have no problem condemning left wing nut jobs.
I disappoints me when they can not condemn theirs.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 04, 2020, 04:52:44 PM
And when prophesy fails?
Wait for the next one. These peeps have no memory. Anxiety is ever looking forward.
Greg,
saying Trump is a racist is not an "assumption". It's based on facts, such as his advocacy (taking out expensive ads in NY papers) for the death penalty for the Central Park Five, or the court case about his (and his dad's) housing consistently refusing black people, or well-documented stuff like "I don't want black people touching my money, I want guys with yarmulkes" in his failing casinos.
In the case of the Central Park Five he continued arguing for the death penalty for these kids, even after it had been proved their were not involved. He just wanted them killed, dead. They were young black men.
This is all extensively documented, but of course you don't read. How do you assume Trump out of that?
In addition you're employing that funny lingo, like saying my assumptions are "leftist and tribalist". That's what the Trump people are saying, in fact Trump stepped it up one notch on the July 4th and now everyone who does not bow to him and huddles close to strangers without a face mask is a "fascist". So we're waiting for you to do the next step. Calling me leftist is too silly for words. What I'm for is human decency and NOT killing people. I'd call that fairly centrist.
Why don't you give yourself a break? As you have told GMG over and over again, you don't really follow the news, you don't read, you're just going at this intuitively. Your political choices (if any) are purely instinctive. You've taken the bait and you're calling people who are horrified by Trump and the American Carnage he created, Leftists (rather than people who want to save lives). You're the typical low-info low-education voter who instinctively is sucked into the Trump hole, attracted by his message of fear and hatred, and so good luck with that, but really, stop torturing yourself and everybody else with your "logical" exercises.
How to troll the whackadoodle Right:
Militias flocked to Gettysburg to foil a supposed antifa flag burning, an apparent hoax created on social media
From AmPo, a full-throated anti-Russkie op-ed - and one tied to an upcoming book: Putin still plays by the ruthless rules of the Cold War. Because Trump lets him. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/putin-gru-bounty-trump/2020/07/01/0059acfa-bba2-11ea-8cf5-9c1b8d7f84c6_story.html)
In an article filled with hawkish language, I do love these tasty literary morsels:
Quote from: Tim WeinerRussia and its intelligence services have been at war with the United States, almost ceaselessly, since 1945.
Quote from: Tim WeinerRussia's "active measures" don't threaten only American soldiers. They threaten American democracy.
Russia!
Fortunately for Russophobes, Biden's national security team will be scared of the bear. Good times are coming.
I hates 'Toe-tally-terry-tism'
It is very important that the US look strong when dealing with Russia. Accordingly, the shocking and disturbing news that Russia is using asymmetrical tactics in Afghanistan mandates that the US remain there for another generation. Perhaps longer. We will let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
Quote from: Dowder on July 05, 2020, 08:03:45 AM
The dreaded Soviet Putin must be defeated.
My immediate concern is defeating the American branch.
I'm not particularly warmongerish on Russia. Yes, he's a Soviet hangover, but consider that deterrence worked against the Soviets and will work again.
TrumPutin is all about removing deterrence guardrails for reasons Trump supporters can't explain. It doesn't really have to do with a fixed position about Russia as a permanent enemy. That's not really a motive. The extent that Putin emulates Soviet policy and attitudes is noteworthy, not something Cold Warriors are falsely attributing to him.
Quote from: Herman on July 04, 2020, 11:38:57 PM
Greg,
saying Trump is a racist is not an "assumption". It's based on facts, such as his advocacy (taking out expensive ads in NY papers) for the death penalty for the Central Park Five, or the court case about his (and his dad's) housing consistently refusing black people, or well-documented stuff like "I don't want black people touching my money, I want guys with yarmulkes" in his failing casinos.
In the case of the Central Park Five he continued arguing for the death penalty for these kids, even after it had been proved their were not involved. He just wanted them killed, dead. They were young black men.
This is all extensively documented, but of course you don't read. How do you assume Trump out of that?
In addition you're employing that funny lingo, like saying my assumptions are "leftist and tribalist". That's what the Trump people are saying, in fact Trump stepped it up one notch on the July 4th and now everyone who does not bow to him and huddles close to strangers without a face mask is a "fascist". So we're waiting for you to do the next step. Calling me leftist is too silly for words. What I'm for is human decency and NOT killing people. I'd call that fairly centrist.
Why don't you give yourself a break? As you have told GMG over and over again, you don't really follow the news, you don't read, you're just going at this intuitively. Your political choices (if any) are purely instinctive. You've taken the bait and you're calling people who are horrified by Trump and the American Carnage he created, Leftists (rather than people who want to save lives). You're the typical low-info low-education voter who instinctively is sucked into the Trump hole, attracted by his message of fear and hatred, and so good luck with that, but really, stop torturing yourself and everybody else with your "logical" exercises.
Not sure who the Trump people are, or what they are saying. "Tribalist" is my own observation, and it fits a bit too much. There's really not much self-awareness about this. It's also known as "groupthink." I'm doing the questioning for you (and others), because it's not really that hard to find the logical fallacies in the ideology.
If we assume Trump is racist against black people (why would he include MLK or Jackie Robinson in the Garden of Heroes, as a racist), but let's just assume that... what does that have to do with Mexico? So it's impossible for someone to be racist only against black people but not Mexicans?
I don't know much about the Central Park story, but the story sold to me about the evidence for his racism does not include that, so that is what I'm questioning. What about the wall/his quotes about Mexico are racist? He's talking about gangs and talking about trying to prevent them and other illegals from coming here. That's it, and that's usually the evidence alone presented to me to justify calling him racist.
But I guess "logical exercises" aren't welcome here, in a debate about politics?
QuoteYou're the typical low-info low-education voter who instinctively is sucked into the Trump hole, attracted by his message of fear and hatred, and so good luck with that
Yeah, this is the only response when I repeatedly say I don't care for Trump and don't vote.
No comment on my mention of "circular reasoning," why "grifter" would be interpreted black person, etc. just, "oh, questions? Then you must like bad cheeto man!"
Reminds me of religion/cults so much...
Susan Rice: Trump doing 'our arch adversary's bidding' (https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/susan-rice-trump-doing-our-arch-adversary-s-bidding-87052869520?playlist=mmlsnnd_3096433-nnd)
Ms Rice is one heckuva tough talker. Listening to her gave me shivers. I am trying to figure out if she wants State or Defense.
Russia!
Maybe arch is too strong. Adversary is just true. It shows a lack of respect for Putin to deny him that.
Quote from: drogulus on July 05, 2020, 11:33:18 AM
Maybe arch is too strong. Adversary is just true. It shows a lack of respect for Putin to deny him that.
One grudgingly admires Putin, he found a willing bitch in Trump, and he's struck Russian gold.
Quote from: greg on July 05, 2020, 09:43:13 AM
Not sure who the Trump people are, or what they are saying. "Tribalist" is my own observation, and it fits a bit too much. There's really not much self-awareness about this. It's also known as "groupthink." I'm doing the questioning for you (and others), because it's not really that hard to find the logical fallacies in the ideology.
If we assume Trump is racist against black people (why would he include MLK or Jackie Robinson in the Garden of Heroes, as a racist), but let's just assume that... what does that have to do with Mexico? So it's impossible for someone to be racist only against black people but not Mexicans?
I don't know much about the Central Park story, but the story sold to me about the evidence for his racism does not include that, so that is what I'm questioning. What about the wall/his quotes about Mexico are racist? He's talking about gangs and talking about trying to prevent them and other illegals from coming here. That's it, and that's usually the evidence alone presented to me to justify calling him racist.
But I guess "logical exercises" aren't welcome here, in a debate about politics?
Yeah, this is the only response when I repeatedly say I don't care for Trump and don't vote.
No comment on my mention of "circular reasoning," why "grifter" would be interpreted black person, etc. just, "oh, questions? Then you must like bad cheeto man!"
Reminds me of religion/cults so much...
Just one more thought...
For a brief few minutes, I actually did think that Trump
was a racist, because I had seen a certain tweet on facebook. I always try to play devil's advocate, so I tried to think of some explanation for why it couldn't be racist, but there really was nothing. At that point, you just have to accept it. But then I did some researching and found out that the tweet was fake.
My point with that being, I am still open to the idea of the accusation being true.
I will spend some time researching the Central Park story and make up my mind. If there is room for doubt, there is room for doubt. If there isn't, well then, perhaps he doesn't like black people, and that's bad. As for Latinos, that's still up in the air for me.
I apologize for somewhat of a thread derailment-ish, will try to end my thoughts here.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 03, 2020, 04:25:56 PM
Just finished one unusually poor article on Politico to then stumble on this:
Tucker Carlson 2024? The GOP is buzzing
The Fox News host's ratings have gone gangbusters, and many Republicans think he'd be a force in a Republican primary. (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/02/tucker-carlson-2024-republicans-348334)
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 04, 2020, 06:41:40 AM
Oh god, I hope not. One nativist, racist reactionary was more than enough. Do they really want another one?
Relax: Tucker wont stand a chance now that Kanye West has said he's running. With the support of Elon Musk.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-throws-his-full-support-behind-this-presidential-candidate-and-its-not-joe-biden-or-donald-trump-2020-07-05
Missed a few filing deadlines, though...
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 05, 2020, 02:35:28 PM
Relax: Tucker wont stand a chance now that Kanye West has said he's running. With the support of Elon Musk.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-throws-his-full-support-behind-this-presidential-candidate-and-its-not-joe-biden-or-donald-trump-2020-07-05
Missed a few filing deadlines, though...
Well the Right-Wing Fantasy/Nightmare of Hillary running can be laid to rest ....
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2020, 03:26:41 PM
Predominantly Black Armed Protesters March Through Confederate Memorial Park in Georgia (https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2020-07-05/predominantly-black-armed-protesters-march-through-confederate-memorial-park-in-georgia)
Some SJW tough guys have kicked things up a notch. Things could get really entertaining before November if this keeps up.
Some further information on the group involved, which calls itself the Not F***ing Around Coalition. But they don't use the asterisks.
https://meaww.com/amp/nfac-grand-master-asks-us-to-give-them-texas-black-ethnostate-black-nation-what-is-military-shooters
Quote from: JBS on July 05, 2020, 03:44:03 PM
Some further information on the group involved, which calls itself the Not F***ing Around Coalition. But they don't use the asterisks.
https://meaww.com/amp/nfac-grand-master-asks-us-to-give-them-texas-black-ethnostate-black-nation-what-is-military-shooters
I'm just going to wait until enough time passes that opposing the idea of segregation 2.0 that this proposes is considered racist, and then say "told ya so." :P
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2020, 03:26:41 PM
Predominantly Black Armed Protesters March Through Confederate Memorial Park in Georgia (https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2020-07-05/predominantly-black-armed-protesters-march-through-confederate-memorial-park-in-georgia)
Some SJW tough guys have kicked things up a notch. Things could get really entertaining before November if this keeps up.
Protesters carrying AR-15s has been a thing for years. How are these guys in particular "kicking things up a notch"? Certainly the NRA must approve.
Matt Taibbi, of Rolling Stone, discussing "White Fragility" at the 37 minute mark.
https://youtube.com/v/0kFTtR34cek
Greg,
The situation is that for every act that one can find that supports the notion that Trump is not a racist there are at least a dozen acts that show he is.
I do not know what percentage of Trump supporters are racist. It could be 40% or 50% or 60%. I do not know. I do know it was a very close election. If it was not for the support of the racists in this country he would have lost. He know this and he goes out of his way to appeal to them.
Liberals are not perfect. We have made out share of mistakes.
Like Trump, his supporters refuse to acknowledge that they may have contributed to the mess we are in.
.
Quote from: greg on July 05, 2020, 09:43:13 AM
If we assume Trump is racist against black people (why would he include MLK or Jackie Robinson in the Garden of Heroes, as a racist), but let's just assume that... what does that have to do with Mexico? So it's impossible for someone to be racist only against black people but not Mexicans?
We don't have to "assume Trump is racist". It's a fact, extensively documented. You're just not aware of this. But that doesn't change the facts.
One, that Garden of Heroes is never going to happen. It's one of the many fake plans Trump just floats to pass the time and pretend to be a President who does something other than tweet. Remember the infrastructure plans - something that the USA desperately needs? Even something as silly and symbolic like the Wall. And then there's this fantasy Space Force plan. It's just never going to happen. It's all photo ops and press moments. For this Garden, there is just not enough time, if he's out come January.
However, you sound like you're unaware of the phenom Token Minority. Trump got a black man in his cabinet (Sleepy Herman Cain) and he used to have Omarosa (remember her?) as his voluptuous black White House flunky. It's all fake. They don't do anything. In ancient times these were eunuchs, now they are people who are shoved into view so as to be able to say "I'm not a racist, I've got my black guy right here. Say hi, black guy, I forgot your name."
The thing to remember about the Central Park Five is that even after they were acquitted Trump was calling for them to be killed. He really likes the idea. He's been accusing so many people of treason these years, and reminding crowds of what the penalty used to be in case of treason. If he could, he'd have so many people he just doesn't like executed. It's also a form of marketing. He knows with a certain crowd (his base) the death penalty is a real thrill, and he's one of them.
Quote from: Herman on July 05, 2020, 11:13:19 PM
We don't have to "assume Trump is racist". It's a fact, extensively documented. You're just not aware of this.
One, that Garden of Heroes is never going to happen. It's one of the many fake plans Trump just floats to pass the time and pretend to be a President who does something other than tweet. Remember the infrastructure plans - something that the USA desperately needs? Even something as silly and symbolic like the Wall. And then there's this fantasy Space Force plan. It's just never going to happen. It's all photo ops and press moments. For this Garden, there is just not enough time, if he's out come January.
However, you sound like you're unaware of the phenom Token Minority. Trump got a back man in his cabinet (Sleepy Herman Cain) and he used to have Omarosa (remember her) as his voluptuous black White House flunky. It's all fake. They don't do anything. In ancient times these were eunuchs, now they are people who are shoved into view so as to be able to say "I'm not a racist, I've got my black guy right here. Say hi, black guy, I forgot your name."
The thing to remember about the Central Park Five is that even after they were acquitted Trump was calling for them to be killed. He really likes that idea. He's been accusing so many people of treason these years, and reminding crowds of what the penalty used to be in case of treason. If he could, he'd have so many people he just doesn't like executed. It's also a form of marketing. He knows with a certain crowd the death penalty is really thrilling, and he's one of them.
Your response was better than mine.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 06, 2020, 01:07:45 AM
Your response was better than mine.
Yours was just fine.
Quote from: Herman on July 05, 2020, 11:13:19 PM
However, you sound like you're unaware of the phenom Token Minority. Trump got a black man in his cabinet (Sleepy Herman Cain) and he used to have Omarosa (remember her?) as his voluptuous black White House flunky. It's all fake. They don't do anything. In ancient times these were eunuchs, now they are people who are shoved into view so as to be able to say "I'm not a racist, I've got my black guy right here. Say hi, black guy, I forgot your name."
A useless move indeed. Once you are deemed an '-ist' you are always an -ist.
So I wonder how much of the accusations would have persisted if he ran as a Democrat instead and won.
Quote from: Herman on July 05, 2020, 11:13:19 PMHowever, you sound like you're unaware of the phenom Token Minority. Trump got a black man in his cabinet (Sleepy Herman Cain)
When did this happen?
Quote from: Herman on July 05, 2020, 11:13:19 PM
We don't have to "assume Trump is racist". It's a fact, extensively documented. You're just not aware of this. But that doesn't change the facts.
One, that Garden of Heroes is never going to happen. It's one of the many fake plans Trump just floats to pass the time and pretend to be a President who does something other than tweet. Remember the infrastructure plans - something that the USA desperately needs? Even something as silly and symbolic like the Wall. And then there's this fantasy Space Force plan. It's just never going to happen. It's all photo ops and press moments. For this Garden, there is just not enough time, if he's out come January.
However, you sound like you're unaware of the phenom Token Minority. Trump got a black man in his cabinet (Sleepy Herman Cain) and he used to have Omarosa (remember her?) as his voluptuous black White House flunky. It's all fake. They don't do anything. In ancient times these were eunuchs, now they are people who are shoved into view so as to be able to say "I'm not a racist, I've got my black guy right here. Say hi, black guy, I forgot your name."
The thing to remember about the Central Park Five is that even after they were acquitted Trump was calling for them to be killed. He really likes the idea. He's been accusing so many people of treason these years, and reminding crowds of what the penalty used to be in case of treason. If he could, he'd have so many people he just doesn't like executed. It's also a form of marketing. He knows with a certain crowd (his base) the death penalty is a real thrill, and he's one of them.
I also like how there is no acknowledgement of my previous points.
You can see room for doubt on whether his comments on Mexico are racist or not, among other things. But you have to be willing to play Devil's Advocate with your own beliefs to see that... not gonna hold my breath waiting for that.
I've already acknowledged seeing something that is racist with no room for doubt would convince me.
But for you, it's like talking to a brick wall. Yawn. Not going to waste more time with this.
Supreme Court Rules State 'Faithless Elector' Laws Constitutional (https://www.npr.org/2020/07/06/885168480/supreme-court-rules-state-faithless-elector-laws-constitutional)
For a while there in late 2016, people got excited about the potential for faithless electors to overturn the outcome of the election. It even happened on this forum. A unanimous SCOTUS has killed that, at least in states with applicable laws. Good work, SCOTUS!
Quote from: Dowder on July 06, 2020, 09:05:48 AM
He meant Ben Carson. Guess he got his black people confused. ???
Probably. Conclude from that what you will.
"Local officials in states with surging coronavirus cases issued dire warnings Sunday about the spread of infections, blaming outbreaks in their communities on early reopenings and saying the virus was rapidly outpacing containment efforts." As bad as the situation in states such as Texas, Florida and Arizona are right now, a true catastrophe may be in store for states if hospitals are overrun and intensive care beds must be rationed.
President Trump deserves a good deal of the blame for playing down the pandemic and goading governors to reopen. However, it was these states' governors who arrogantly defied expert advice and replete warnings about closing down too late and opening too soon. They ultimately made the decision to follow Trump's horrendously dangerous advice."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 06, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
Sounds like rationalizations for you to continue in ignorance of the facts. Your trip.
Sure. I ignore 'facts' even if there's no reason to do so. Right.
What is presented as 'facts' is highly colored by subjective interpretation, ignoring all doubt.
Quote from: Dowder on July 06, 2020, 09:22:05 AM
Guess he's not allowed to think for himself.
Exactly. Tribalism.
Also I seem to be ignoring the fact of what Trump said about Mexico, not discussing that apparently?... ehhh hold on... ummm...
yeah, I meant Ben Carson, stupid mistake.
It may or may not have something to do with that the only cabinet members who ever get to talk are Mnuchin, Pence and "my Wilbur".
Quote from: greg on July 06, 2020, 08:09:10 AM
Yawn. Not going to waste more time with this.
Good. Please don't. These aren't "thought experiments" or whatever you're calling them, its you refusing to acknowledge a lot of problematic behavior being at the very least problematic. If anyone here is displaying a cult-like commitment to one view its you.
You say you'll only suspect Trump is a racist if he does something overt and openly and unambiguously racist? No you wont. You'll rationalize that too. You'll be like the Trumpists who were asked what they'd think if he really did shoot someone on 5th Avenue and replied "he must have had a good reason".
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 06, 2020, 11:20:02 AM
Good. Please don't. These aren't "thought experiments" or whatever you're calling them, its you refusing to acknowledge a lot of problematic behavior being at the very least problematic. If anyone here is displaying a cult-like commitment to one view its you.
You just used a circular sentence. "Not acknowledging problematic behavior as problematic." That's literally a non-response.
(BTW I never said there wasn't any room for suspicion).
It's like "not acknowledging the existence of a god who exists." Meaningless.
What cult would I even belong to? A cult of one(myself)? I guess that could be true.
I think the idea of 12 Angry Men was a good one. Judge based on reasonable doubt rather than reasonable suspicion. That's my approach.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 06, 2020, 11:20:02 AM
You say you'll only suspect Trump is a racist if he does something overt and openly and unambiguously racist? No you wont.
I literally just mentioned a real example of this happening. But it turned out the tweet is fake.
Uncle Dysfunction
For Greg, in case his "thought experiments" should extend to drawing info from outside his own mind.
The Race-Hustler-in-Chief (https://thebulwark.com/the-race-hustler-in-chief/)
QuoteThis comes just a few days after he shared a video of an old white guy with a thick Northeastern accent on a golf cart shouting "white power."
Which they fail to mention he took down because it wasn't audible...
if he wanted to share someone saying "white power," he would keep it up because he is a loud, overt person, not someone that communicates covert and sneakily.
This:
Quote
With that backdrop there are only three ways to interpret Trump's remarks:
1) He is purposefully instigating racial tensions because he believes that it will help him politically if there is a race war.
2) He is a racist with no self-control and is engaging in self-sabotage.
3) He is too stupid to realize what he is doing and he is just recklessly tweeting anything that he sees on Fox & Friends or that his racist buddies said to him in a recent phone call.
is a response to this?:
Quote
Has @BubbaWallace apologized to all of those great NASCAR drivers & officials who came to his aid, stood by his side, & were willing to sacrifice everything for him, only to find out that the whole thing was just another HOAX? That & Flag decision has caused lowest ratings EVER!
Okay, maybe #3? So? Everyone knows he has a tweeting problem.
They just casually throw the word racist in there. Pretty soon the word will wear out from over use.
I really hope you're not implying that calling out a proven hoax of a hate crime is racist... really, really hope not.
My basic question, to give one example, so I don't get misunderstood:
How is wanting a wall built between Mexico and the US racist?
I also addressed the "Mexican rapists" quote. How does this comment on the color of anyone's skin (rather than just nationality)? And how is it not because of the reasons addressed (illegal immigration/drugs/gangs/crime) instead? If Mexico were white and had the same issues, how do you know he wouldn't take the same approach?
This is not "thinking experiments." It's just basic critical thinking skills.
If it were just a matter of your proud critical thinking skills then you wouldn't need to be asking us to answer these questions for you. There's now a vast amount of writing on the uselessness and inefficiency of The Wall, in any Trump version, for preventing illegal immigration, and certainly for preventing drug trafficking. That all it does is please the racist elements in his base and reward his friends with lucrative contracts. And cost a lot of money that Mexico was never going to be paying.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 06, 2020, 04:44:45 PM
If it were just a matter of your proud critical thinking skills then you wouldn't need to be asking us to answer these questions for you. There's now a vast amount of writing on the uselessness and inefficiency of The Wall, in any Trump version, for preventing illegal immigration, and certainly for preventing drug trafficking. That all it does is please the racist elements in his base and reward his friends with lucrative contracts. And cost a lot of money that Mexico was never going to be paying.
It's a fair criticism of the wall.
But probably no point in asking in answers, that may be true. Mostly I'm pointing out the gaps in logic...
why? Because it leads to dangerous beliefs, like some people admitting they believe the millions of people who voted for him are racist.
Some are, absolutely. But that is an extremely aggressive stance which is only going to lead to dark times. It reminds me of the accusations against people that the only reason someone wouldn't vote for Obama is because they're racist. It's an extremely divisive attitude. People need to take a step back and think.
The stuff he says is questionable. But I would hold off on labels for now.
After 4/5 years of this and with another election looming? Its well past holding off. Its very much time to decide.
Stop asking us for a few paragraphs you can parse. Take a look at the full range of reporting from diverse sources and dig down yourself on these issues. For example read what people who live in towns or farms near the wall or areas for its planned construction have to say about its effectiveness or desirability.
My wife has made an interesting observation. The Trump Movement has taken such hard-line positions on so many issue that they are forcing normally neutral people to take sides. Instead of convincing most people the righteousness of their cause, they have has driven most people to the left.
The terms of service for a recently started political forum:
"To the people complaining on Twitter about being banned on [name]. Please pay heed.
Here are the very few basic rules we need you to follow on [name]. If these are not to your liking, we apologize, but we will enforce:
— When you disagree with someone, posting pictures of your fecal matter in the comment section WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
— Your Username cannot be obscene like CumDumpster.
— No pornography. Doesn't matter who, what, where, when or in what realm.
— We will not allow you to spam other people trying to speak with unrelated comments like "Fuck you" in every comment. It's stupid. It's pointless. Grow up.
— You cannot threaten to kill anyone in the comment section. Sorry, never going to be okay
If ever in doubt, ask yourself if you would say it on the streets of New York or national television."
Quote from: Dowder on July 06, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
I don't think that's fair. We've explained our views here before only to be called trolls, racists, and iffy people. I think most turned off by Trump were willing to vote for a good ol' big government liberal such as Biden. However, with the recent chaos in America I think many will swing back to Trump, who isn't preaching an anti-American kneel and take it on the chin message but one that celebrates America, its history, culture and institutions.
Moreover, you haven't voted Republican in over twenty years and are now a socialist. As a committed leftist it's understandable you wish to see more in your camp.
Why would the coronavirus chaos have people swinging back to Trump? And I'd be quite happy calling his bungling mismanagement"anti-American" and, especially, "take it on the chin".
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 06, 2020, 06:36:52 PM
I was doing none of those things. I was telling him to be more widely informed. As by his own admission he is not.
I am aware of some of the big stories. I do keep up with the news somewhat, maybe not every single little story, though.
Another problem is people that don't keep with any more news than I do believing the narrative that he is definitely, unquestionably racist. If you keep up with more news than me, then fine, you aren't one of them, but maybe take some time to process and question what is being sold to you- whether the narrative is on your side or not. Maybe half and half between consuming and thinking would be a good balance.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 06, 2020, 05:07:37 PM
After 4/5 years of this and with another election looming? Its well past holding off. Its very much time to decide guess.
Guess... because still the verdict is up in the air, it's still a guess based on what I've seen/heard.
Running as the second Confederate President is not "celebrating America, its history, culture and institutions," it celebrates people who took arms against the Union (America) in order to preserve white supremacy.
The Trump cult pays no heed to inconernient facts, but Trump's incompetence, contemptible immorality, betrayal of US troops and divisive racism are convincing lifelong Republicans of the need to elect a decent man to the office.
https://www.youtube.com/v/mtO8mRH4lgI
Quote from: Dowder on July 06, 2020, 06:36:19 PM
Amazed at how COVID-19 and the racial unrest is all pinned upon Trump. For a guy who obsesses over American politics you remain in terrible ignorance about how our government functions.
I have to give the Kiwi props over the guy who thinks the U.S. is still operating under the Articles of Confederation (or perhaps the Constitution of the Confederate States of America?)
Quote from: Dowder on July 06, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
I don't think that's fair. We've explained our views here before only to be called trolls, racists, and iffy people. I think most turned off by Trump were willing to vote for a good ol' big government liberal such as Biden. However, with the recent chaos in America I think many will swing back to Trump, who isn't preaching an anti-American kneel and take it on the chin message but one that celebrates America, its history, culture and institutions.
Moreover, you haven't voted Republican in over twenty years and are now a socialist. As a committed leftist it's understandable you wish to see more in your camp.
If conservatives really understood Democrats they would know most them are not socialists. If Democrats were Bernie would have won.
Every Democrat is not guilty of what you claim they are in you remarks. Just because a person expresses some concern over the behavior of the police does not mean they are anti-American.
Attacking government sounds good on paper but does not always work in the real world. Sometimes the best solution to a problem is the government. It seems that many thousands of people would have been saved if the federal government had a stronger response to the virus.
Constantly accusing Democrats and Independents of being things they are not just alienates them. They will not become socialists like myself but they will stop supporting Republicans.
As far as racism I really do not know if the majority of Republicans are racist. I do not think so. All of the racists that I do know are Republican. Enlighten Republicans will have a problem with race if they fail to confront the bigots in the party.
Quote from: greg on July 06, 2020, 04:55:30 PM
it leads to dangerous beliefs, like some people admitting they believe the millions of people who voted for him are racist.
Why is thinking, or saying, the president and a large portion of his followers are racist, based on an endless history of facts, a "dangerous belief" and constantly saying you need more evidence to make up your mind not?
I don't think Simon or anyone is telling anyone what or whom to vote. On the other hand, the global pandemic is yet another proof nations are not seperate islands anymore. Countries led by populists with autocrat leanings are a danger to the entire world population because, for some reason, they don't protect their own populations and thus pose a grave danger to other countries. The EU has banned travel from the US but obviously this is not airtight.
Also, the whole idea of humanism / christianity is you also try to keep people you're not immediately connected to out of harm's way. This is part of the reasons why Canada and the USA came to liberate Europe in 1944. America is now saddled with a leadership that prefers to do fireworks and speeches rather than prevent mass death, and it is only natural that people in a saner part of the universe are saying "you sure you want that?" Interestingly many times the answer is "Yes we do!"
Because demonizing/dehumanizing millions never leads to a brighter future. Never has. And even worse if most of the people aren't even bad. And yes, "racist" is a dehumanizing term. Unless you don't really think racism is actually that bad?
Quote from: Dowder on July 06, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
I don't think that's fair. We've explained our views here before only to be called trolls, racists, and iffy people.
Gosh, aren't you the victim?
Point me to a post where you express opposition to trump's racism.
I don't quite understand the plural "we" either.
I am assuming that people who post here speak for themselves, not for some anonymous plurality.
But perhaps it's translation error from the Russian.
Quote from: Dowder on July 07, 2020, 08:21:42 AM
You never gave an example.
That denial underscores the point, Mr "what racism?"
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 07:25:06 AM
Because demonizing/dehumanizing millions never leads to a brighter future. Never has. And even worse if most of the people aren't even bad. And yes, "racist" is a dehumanizing term. Unless you don't really think racism is actually that bad?
So, by extension you're saying the Civil War should not have happened, because it made people in the South feel bad about themselves?
America shouldn't have declared independence because it hurt the King's feelings?
In your naiveté you're turning things around. Racism hurts people's feelings, and more importantly it hinders them from living their lives on an equal basis with white people. Societies all over the world (but obviously we're discussing USA Politix here) are attempting to move forward in this, and to do this it is necessary to name things as they happen.
That is why people are saying, in quite substantial numbers, over a wide political spectrum (except of course Republican career politicians) Trump is and has always been, a racist, who got into the White House because he promised his base racism, starting with Birtherism and Mexican rapists.
Hopefully there will be a massive reaction at the voting booth come November but you can't just say it would hurt Trump's feelings to vote him out of office because he's an incompetent racist. Racism is hurtful and dehumanizing; telling someone who says or does racist things what he's doing may or may not be hurtful, but it is necessary - privided it's not just your uncle at Thanksgiving or an old crank on his back porch.
There are obviously millions of people who voted for Trump because of things he said (Birtherism, Mexicans and the whole symphony of dog whistles). Just because they are many should one say, "it can't be racism, he just misspoke"? Obama was a very empathetic smooth talker who rarely showed anger, because he thought it would not work. No doubt Biden will try to instill some optimism in the way people talk about the nation's course. It's no use blaming people for holding on to bad things, just like he's going to discourage people who keep saying Trump should be thrown in jail. That's Trump talk. Biden is not going to do that, and it's very likely either Trump will pardon himself and his kids, or Pence will, after Trump has stepped down should he lose the elections.
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2020, 09:40:34 AM
So, by extension you're saying the Civil War should not have happened, because it made people in the South feel bad about themselves?
America shouldn't have declared independence because it hurt the King's feelings?
In your naiveté you're turning things around. Racism hurts people's feelings, and more importantly it hinders them from living their lives on an equal basis with white people. Societies all over the world (but obviously we're discussing USA Politix here) are attempting to move forward in this, and to do this it is necessary to name things as they happen.
That is why people are saying, in quite substantial numbers, over a wide political spectrum (except of course Republican career politicians) Trump is and has always been, a racist, who got into the White House because he promised his base racism, starting with Birtherism and Mexican rapists.
Hopefully there will be a massive reaction at the voting booth come November but you can't just say it would hurt Trump's feelings to vote him out of office because he's an incompetent racist. Racism is hurtful and dehumanizing; telling someone who says or does racist things what he's doing may or may not be hurtful, but it is necessary - privided it's not just your uncle at Thanksgiving or an old crank on his back porch.
There are obviously millions of people who voted for Trump because of things he said (Birtherism, Mexicans and the whole symphony of dog whistles). Just because they are many should one say, "it can't be racism, he just misspoke"? Obama was a very empathetic smooth talker who rarely showed anger, because he thought it would not work. No doubt Biden will try to instill some optimism in the way people talk about the nation's course. It's no use blaming people for holding on to bad things, just like he's going to discourage people who keep saying Trump should be thrown in jail. That's Trump talk. Biden is not going to do that, and it's very likely either Trump will pardon himself and his kids, or Pence will, after Trump has stepped down should he lose the elections.
Commenting on the first question...
I'm sorry, that's just testing my patience... you can't compare slavery to a President that impulsively says weird, questionable things. I often see the comparisons with Hitler, too, and wonder about the psychology of people making such comparisons.
He doesn't say those things impulsively.
He is (and has always been) aware that racist dogwhistles will make lowlifes like him, and there are a lot of lowlifes.
If there's a system in what a person says over the years, if he keeps saying the same things and aiming at the same end, it's not impulsive. It may be automatic and unthinking but it is what this person stands for.
Thinking he's really thinking something else, but his mouth is running away with him (or her) is naive.
Some of his worst utterances were speeches read (in his strange monotone hostage speech) from the teleprompter.
The horrifying American Carnage acceptance speech, for instance, was written in advance. It was pretty much Trump's Fascism in America manifesto.
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 07:25:06 AM
Because demonizing/dehumanizing millions never leads to a brighter future. Never has. And even worse if most of the people aren't even bad. And yes, "racist" is a dehumanizing term. Unless you don't really think racism is actually that bad?
And yet, you are too incurious to look into the fact of the president's racism. Not sure that is in any way more defensible than the smug denialism of others
Is "liar" a "dehumanizing term"?
"rapist"?
"thief"?
(* typo *)
Crickets here about Putin's bounties on American servicemen, eh?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2020, 10:21:43 AM
And yet, you are too incurious to look into the fact of the president's racism. Not sure that is in any way more defensible than the smug denialism of others
Is "liar" a "dehumanizing term"?
"rapist"?
"thief"?
(* typo *)
I would say rapist is.
Let's say because of Biden's questionable touching problem with women, people on the right accuse everyone that votes for him as people that want to grope women, or drag the rhetoric up a step, and secretly want to rape them.
That's fine, right? Why can't people accuse millions of being potential rapists?
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
I would say rapist is.
Let's say because of Biden's questionable touching problem with women, people on the right accuse everyone that votes for him as people that want to grope women, or drag the rhetoric up a step, and secretly want to rape them.
That's fine, right? Why can't people accuse millions of being potential rapists?
You took this in a very curious, tendentious direction.
Let me make this plain: whatever the spin on Biden's behavior, calling him a "rapist" would be slander, not "dehumanizing"
So, I rephrase the questions:
If a man habitually lies, is it, "dehumanizing" to call him a liar?
If a man has committed rape, is it "dehumanizing" to call him a rapist?
Quote from: Dowder on July 07, 2020, 08:21:42 AM
You never gave an example.
These aren't examples, nope.
Good ol' Turd Blossom
Republicans' latest excuse for Trump (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/07/republicans-latest-excuse-trump/)"As more Republicans realize that President Trump is hurtling toward defeat, they can no longer pretend as if things are going swimmingly. Instead, they haul out the old chestnut: It's a communications problem.
On Trump's tweets attacking NASCAR driver Bubba Wallace, Republican strategist Karl Rove declares: "The question is, did what the president tweeted on Monday advance the cause that he laid out on Saturday? And I think the answer is an unambiguous no." The problem, according to Rove, is not Trump's dog-whistling speech at Mount Rushmore, but the tweets that let on what Trump really thinks. "The president has a limited number of days between now and the election. And when he tweets, it's a powerful message. And the question is, does that message continue to advance the narrative that he and those around him decided that he would lay out on [Friday] at Mount Rushmore? And the answer is no, it didn't."
It does not dawn on Rove (or he won't admit) that what Trump said at Mount Rushmore was about as subtle as George Wallace's race-mongering. Perhaps the problem is that Americans do not think there is a left-wing horde seeking to destroy the country. Maybe Americans see Trump's spewing of racist rhetoric as a distraction from his massive failures on the novel coronavirus and the economy, unprecedented corruption and sniveling subservience to Vladimir Putin."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2020, 12:06:44 PM
You took this in a very curious, tendentious direction.
Let me make this plain: whatever the spin on Biden's behavior, calling him a "rapist" would be slander, not "dehumanizing"
So, I rephrase the questions:
If a man habitually lies, is it, "dehumanizing" to call him a liar?
If a man has committed rape, is it "dehumanizing" to call him a rapist?
Sorry, guys, the chutzpah of a Trump apologist tone trolling about "dehumanization" has finally broken my brain. (You'd think they'd remember children in cages, but I don't think they see those children as fully human.) Your seemingly infinite patience is commendable. I'm outa here.
The Trump Virus
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2020, 12:06:44 PM
You took this in a very curious, tendentious direction.
Let me make this plain: whatever the spin on Biden's behavior, calling him a "rapist" would be slander, not "dehumanizing"
So, I rephrase the questions:
If a man habitually lies, is it, "dehumanizing" to call him a liar?
If a man has committed rape, is it "dehumanizing" to call him a rapist?
The first question: it's slander.
The second question: No, then it would just be true.
Why I consider it dehumanizing: Because rape is subject to being thrown in jail for much of one's life. Same as falsely accusing one of murder.
"Racist" sort of walks the line between being just slander and sometimes being dehumanizing. Example, Antifa yelling "racist!" or "Nazi!" and then grouping up to beat up people that are neither. If a label can lead to your physical peril or imprisonment, then yeah, it could be dehumanizing, in my opinion.
Is Trump racist based on:
1) reasonable suspicion or
2) lack of reasonable doubt?
Quote from: Daverz on July 07, 2020, 12:43:53 PM
Sorry, guys, the chutzpah of a Trump apologist tone trolling about "dehumanization" has finally broken my brain. (You'd think they'd remember children in cages, but I don't think they see those children as fully human.) Your seemingly infinite patience is commendable. I'm outa here.
Broken your brain. Not even going to comment on that.
Quote from: Daverz on July 07, 2020, 12:43:53 PM
Sorry, guys, the chutzpah of a Trump apologist tone trolling about "dehumanization" has finally broken my brain. (You'd think they'd remember children in cages, but I don't think they see those children as fully human.) Your seemingly infinite patience is commendable. I'm outa here.
Yup, it's getting hard to take this selective naiveté seriously.
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2020, 01:15:02 PM
Yup, it's getting hard to take this selective naiveté seriously.
So you believe Trump wanting a border wall is indisputably racist?
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
So you believe Trump wanting a border wall is indisputably racist?
The GOP attitude to immigration is based on two things.
1 They think immigrants come here to take advantage of our social welfare net
2 They think immigrants will vote Democratic no matter what they do.
I've seen this stated explicitly numerous times over the years by RW people.
It's fundamentally racist because of the assumptions it makes about immigrants.
Trump's racism is fairly well documented from his years in New York. The only difference is that before he got into politics he tried to hide it. Now he's open about it.
Quote from: JBS on July 07, 2020, 02:18:05 PM
The GOP attitude to immigration is based on two things.
1 They think immigrants come here to take advantage of our social welfare net
2 They think immigrants will vote Democratic no matter what they do.
I've seen this stated explicitly numerous times over the years by RW people.
It's fundamentally racist because of the assumptions it makes about immigrants.
Trump's racism is fairly well documented from his years in New York. The only difference is that before he got into politics he tried to hide it. Now he's open about it.
I mean, all that stuff is part of a different discussion. It doesn't exactly address my question.
If his New York years are racist, then fine. But what has been sold to me is that building a border wall is racist.
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
So you believe Trump wanting a border wall is indisputably racist?
In and of itself, it may or may not be, since a wall is an inanimate object all on its own. But no act of that type exists without context. And when you add the context, taken from his own words and actions over the last 5 years, then disputing the inherent racism of building the wall is a task only a fool or a hopeless political lackey would undertake.
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2020, 02:54:34 PM
In and of itself, it may or may not be, since a wall is an inanimate object all on its own. But no act of that type exists without context. And when you add the context, taken from his own words and actions over the last 5 years, then disputing the inherent racism of building the wall is a task only a fool or a hopeless political lackey would undertake.
8)
Finally, a reasonable answer. I did expect the mention of context to pop up from someone.
Why I'm questioning whether he is racist is, what in his past is at least 90% undeniably racist (in this case towards Mexicans/Hispanic) to make this reek of racism? (though keep in mind, my phrasing "reek" is my own, and would be the only one to make any sort of sense- what was sold to me was building a wall itself is the racism part, not the context part).
I also want someone to answer this:
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 01:12:56 PM
Is Trump racist based on:
1) reasonable suspicion or
2) lack of reasonable doubt?
it is important because there we can understand the difference in how we judge people.
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 02:37:59 PM
I mean, all that stuff is part of a different discussion. It doesn't exactly address my question.
If his New York years are racist, then fine. But what has been sold to me is that building a border wall is racist.
Because the facts show that the Wall won't do anything to help border security. Short increments of wall do, but that was already part of our border security before Trump came in.
So the Wall is useless. And why does Trump want it? To keep out immigrants. And why does he want to keep out immigrants? Because in Trumpworld, immigrants are bad people who want to leech off the rest of us. Of course somehow white European immigrants are not bad people, especially if they support Trump.
It's a purely racist attitude to immigrants. And it's not just Trump. It's most of the GOP.
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 03:02:08 PM
I also want someone to answer this:it is important because there we can understand the difference in how we judge people.
It's utterly banal to say there's a difference in the way we judge people if we might be sending them to jail and the way we judge their character as voters.
The only one who thinks this is news is you.
Quote from: JBS on July 07, 2020, 03:31:56 PM
Because the facts show that the Wall won't do anything to help border security. Short increments of wall do, but that was already part of our border security before Trump came in.
So the Wall is useless. And why does Trump want it? To keep out immigrants. And why does he want to keep out immigrants? Because in Trumpworld, immigrants are bad people who want to leech off the rest of us. Of course somehow white European immigrants are not bad people, especially if they support Trump.
It's a purely racist attitude to immigrants. And it's not just Trump. It's most of the GOP.
Wait, doesn't helping border security mean keeping out (illegal) immigrants? And if he knows that it's useless for that, then why are you saying his goal is to keep out immigrants?
Does he just not know that it's ineffective or is he just throwing money on a silly project?
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 07, 2020, 03:34:31 PM
It's utterly banal to say there's a difference in the way we judge people if we might be sending them to jail and the way we judge their character as voters.
The only one who thinks this is news is you.
I'm not sure how this is an answer to my question... I'm getting a headache most likely from so many replies, so that may be it.
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2020, 03:49:27 PM
Wait, doesn't helping border security mean keeping out (illegal) immigrants? And if he knows that it's useless for that, then why are you saying his goal is to keep out immigrants?
Does he just not know that it's ineffective or is he just throwing money on a silly project?
These questions have been answered multiple times already. He knows its popular with his base, efficiency means nothing as long as the idea can generate a three word chant at rallies.
Quote from: Dowder on July 07, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
So why the resistance to build it? The government already wastes enough money. What's a few billion more in DC? Those blocking the measure know that it will work hence the reason for not funding it.
That is absolutely dishonest. The government under Trump has legalized about 4-5 million immigrants and he has said repeatedly that our economy needs them. The problem is with the illegal immigrants. There is nothing racist with a nation wanting to control its immigration flow or protect its borders, prevent illegal crossings and deport those who have broken laws and are a threat. Dismissing all such actions as racist is just a lame attempt to stop any meaningful actions being done to stop abuses of our immigration laws.
I have heard that line about legalizing 4-5 million immigrants. It has no connection to the real world I know of. Could you explain what it's supposed to be?
But Trump's immigration agenda is aimed at all immigrants. For instance, today's announcement that has the goal of kicking out as many student visa holders as possible. His treatment of asylum seekers that equates them to criminals. And so on. He's not against only illegal immigrants. He's against immigrants, period.
The big, beautiful wall is pie in the sky. Chipping away at the international system is real: Trump administration begins formal withdrawal from World Health Organization (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/politics/us-withdrawing-world-health-organization/index.html)
Super-Creepy 46 will probably find a way to weasel the US back in, but you have to celebrate the small victories while you can.
Seen on Twitter:
"It's increasingly difficult to pretend you support decency in public life and remain a Republican. It's getting to be like saying you belong to the pro-equality branch of the KKK."
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2020, 05:59:56 PM
The big, beautiful wall is pie in the sky. Chipping away at the international system is real: Trump administration begins formal withdrawal from World Health Organization (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/politics/us-withdrawing-world-health-organization/index.html)
Super-Creepy 46 will probably find a way to weasel the US back in, but you have to celebrate the small victories while you can.
Well, if you had read further, the "withdrawal" is scheduled for July 2021. By which time it may be moot. It's a whatchacall "Talking Point" for the Base, that's all...
8)
Trump pretty much started Lame Ducking in January 2017.
The only things he's done is install judges. The rest is symbolism.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2020, 06:26:12 PM
Well, if you had read further, the "withdrawal" is scheduled for July 2021. By which time it may be moot. It's a whatchacall "Talking Point" for the Base, that's all...
8)
Todd needs a fresh pair of pom-poms....
I just saw this ad by Trump about defunding police:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOOlOMLaFho
It is very insulting and there is no justification for it. If a person actually believes that we do not want the police, they are so delusional that we would be wasting our time trying to engage with them. They are a lost cause.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2020, 06:26:12 PM
Well, if you had read further, the "withdrawal" is scheduled for July 2021. By which time it may be moot. It's a whatchacall "Talking Point" for the Base, that's all...
8)
Yes, I'm fully aware of all that, which is why I stated that Super-Creepy 46 will weasel the US back in. The action has caused discomfort and some protests amongst international sorts, though, so they see it as material and real, even if you do not. If by some miracle Trump wins reelection, it could have more far-reaching consequences. As it stands, the US can cause fiscal discomfort at the WHO, which itself is a laudable goal. While there is obviously an aspect of playing to the base, Trump has caused real damage to the international system. Just seeing Super-Creepy 46 get elected is not going to be enough to restore levels of trust in the US and its institutions to pre-2016 (or pre-2000) levels.
Again, you have to celebrate the small victories while you can.
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2020, 06:32:58 PMTrump pretty much started Lame Ducking in January 2017.
Then why all the outrage online and in the press, and why all the posturing by non-Americans?
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2020, 06:32:58 PMThe only things he's done is install judges. The rest is symbolism.
This is factually inaccurate. Trump signed an excellent tax cut into law, and he has done a good job of rolling back regulations. He and DeVos have not gutted education, which was something you stated would happen. So, he could have done more.
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2020, 06:55:43 PM
Super-Creepy 46
From the Guardian's review of the new book by Trump's niece:
[...]"Trump's notorious treatment of women is also discussed. Mary Trump says that when her uncle provided material, it was "an aggrieved compendium of women" – Madonna and the ice skater Katarina Witt among them – "he had expected to date but who, having refused him, were suddenly the worst, ugliest and fattest slobs he'd ever met."
"I stopped asking him for an interview," she writes, adding that on a visit to Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida to work on the book, she was wearing a bathing suit when Trump looked at his niece and said: "Holy shit, Mary. You're stacked."[...]
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/07/donald-trump-abuse-father-niece-mary-book
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2020, 11:07:38 AM
Crickets here about Putin's bounties on American servicemen, eh?
Given that this a European-based website that might be expected. I wish the U.S. media would pay it more attention, however. (Pandemic everything.) I'm a long-ago army veteran and believe while trump's behaviour may not meet the legal definition of treason, it can still be labeled traitorous. Fortunately the military press seems to be covering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZmXCY8Z/Ec-Mvyge-UEAAw-ABj.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Quote from: geralmar on July 07, 2020, 07:38:31 PM
Given that this a European-based website that might be expected. I wish the U.S. media would pay it more attention, however. (Pandemic everything.) I'm a long-ago army veteran and believe while trump's behaviour may not meet the legal definition of treason, it can still be labeled traitorous. Fortunately the military press seems to be covering.
Which military press do you follow?
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2020, 06:55:43 PM
Yes, I'm fully aware of all that, which is why I stated that Super-Creepy 46 will weasel the US back in. The action has caused discomfort and some protests amongst international sorts, though, so they see it as material and real, even if you do not. If by some miracle Trump wins reelection, it could have more far-reaching consequences. As it stands, the US can cause fiscal discomfort at the WHO, which itself is a laudable goal. While there is obviously an aspect of playing to the base, Trump has caused real damage to the international system. Just seeing Super-Creepy 46 get elected is not going to be enough to restore levels of trust in the US and its institutions to pre-2016 (or pre-2000) levels.
Again, you have to celebrate the small victories while you can.
Then why all the outrage online and in the press, and why all the posturing by non-Americans?
This is factually inaccurate. Trump signed an excellent tax cut into law, and he has done a good job of rolling back regulations. He and DeVos have not gutted education, which was something you stated would happen. So, he could have done more.
Baloney. I refuse to believe that a person of you intelligence does not already know the answers to any of your questions.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 07, 2020, 07:40:10 PM
Which military press do you follow?
Army Times
https://www.armytimes.com
Not a slavish follower. Did my military obligation decades ago.
Quote from: geralmar on July 07, 2020, 07:58:14 PM
Army Times
https://www.armytimes.com
Not a slavish follower. Did my military obligation decades ago.
Thanks.
Quote from: Dowder on July 07, 2020, 09:32:50 PM
When will the propaganda ever stop? That report is a smear, with no definitive proof for any of its claims. Not that matters. The left wingers here lap up anything anti-Trump and hardly consider whether it's even true or not.
For more about this bogus fake news story, read here:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5354686002 (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5354686002)
Did you even read that article before you posted it? It doesn't say it's "bogus" or "fake".
Yes, but the article quotes a larger number of others who say the opposite. The consensus of the voices is that there would be " nothing new" about Russia behaving this way.
And this is from a Dowder-approved source.
Sen. Tammy Duckworth responds after Tucker Carlson suggests she hates America (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tammy-duckworth-tucker-carlson-hates-america-response/)
Tammy v Tucker. Reads almost like a SCOTUS case, or a country song if it is fashioned into Tammy 'n' Tucker. The spat is quite the news cycle story, lighting up all the regular outlets. As a potential veep candidate, a disabled woman of color vet is a quadruple whammy. She should at least get the VA for her troubles.
Quote from: Dowder on July 07, 2020, 09:41:59 PM
So you're claiming Trump hasn't legalized anyone? How real is your world if you belief that?
According to the left wing MSM.
Some of them are. Don't be so naive.
Again, when the facts conflict with the ideology, the ideology always wins. If Trump hated immigrants he would have stopped immigration at the start of his presidency. He merely asked for some common sense reforms but for that he's branded as a racist by those who cannot counter with anything else but name calling.
1) I know of no actions by the Trump Administration that could be termed "legalizing immigrants". Please point to the actions you think can be termed that.
2) Common sense immigration reform boils down to making it easier to immigrate legally. Trump has done the opposite for his entire time in office.
And he's a racist. Sorry if that offends you, but it's a fact.
Quote from: geralmar on July 07, 2020, 07:58:14 PM
Army Times
https://www.armytimes.com
Not a slavish follower. Did my military obligation decades ago.
Thanks for your service!
Quote from: Dowder on July 07, 2020, 09:32:50 PM
When will the propaganda ever stop? That report is a smear, with no definitive proof for any of its claims. Not that matters. The left wingers here lap up anything anti-Trump and hardly consider whether it's even true or not.
For more about this bogus fake news story, read here:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5354686002 (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5354686002)
The smokescreen of crying "propaganda, bogus fake news" from a Trumpkin who laps up President Virus's disinformation is the talk of a troll, yes.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 07, 2020, 07:30:57 PM
From the Guardian's review of the new book by Trump's niece:
[...]"Trump's notorious treatment of women is also discussed. Mary Trump says that when her uncle provided material, it was "an aggrieved compendium of women" – Madonna and the ice skater Katarina Witt among them – "he had expected to date but who, having refused him, were suddenly the worst, ugliest and fattest slobs he'd ever met."
"I stopped asking him for an interview," she writes, adding that on a visit to Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida to work on the book, she was wearing a bathing suit when Trump looked at his niece and said: "Holy shit, Mary. You're stacked."[...]
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/07/donald-trump-abuse-father-niece-mary-book
No, Huggy Bear has zero credibility on the "creepy" question.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 08, 2020, 09:16:44 AM
No, Huggy Bear has zero credibility on the "creepy" question.
His response on Kavanaugh's confirmation was "I heart Mitch"
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 08, 2020, 08:49:43 AM
Thanks for your service!
What about me?
I served with the 75th Army Band at Four Belvoir during the Viet Nam war.
Which means that while real heroes who were in the jungles of Viet Nam, I was in the reserve. If the VC invaded Virginia Beach, I would be there ready to break their eardrums playing sour notes on my tenor sax. Little know fact that army bassoons could also be converted into bazookas.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 08, 2020, 12:54:53 PM
What about me?
I served with the 75th Army Band at Four Belvoir during the Viet Nam war.
Which means that while real heroes who were in the jungles of Viet Nam, I was in the reserve. If the VC invaded Virginia Beach, I would be there ready to break their eardrums playing sour notes on my tenor sax. Little know fact that army bassoons could also be converted into bazookas.
Didn't mean to leave your bassoon out in the cold!
"When did Trump ever lie?"
Quote from: Dowder on July 07, 2020, 08:21:42 AM
You never gave an example.
No adult considers this participation in good faith.
Quote from: Dowder on July 08, 2020, 02:58:07 PM
I guess naturalizations stopped.
Common sense immigration says those who break the laws should be deported, borders should always be protected and citizenship shouldn't be made a mockery. The left pretty much wants s society where anyone can come here and become a citizen, for whatever legitimate or crummy reasons.
Naturalizations? You mean a process that occurs normally? Why should Trump get special credit for that? They were already here legally, so no one was legalized.I thought you meant something like Obama's DACA program.
[But it is telling that you think green card holders have less than legal status here.]
It's common sense that the easier it is to come here legally, the less illegal immigration there will be. It's also common sense that our current immigration policies (going back through most of the 20th century) are too restrictive. Trump is just making a bad situation worse.
But a more realistic, less restrictive immigration policy is the only way to have a secure border because it automatically lessens illegal immigration.
And anyone who isn't a known criminal should be able to come here. Any argument against that ultimately rests in either sincere ignorance or bigotry.
Hey dudes and dudettes, I skipped the last two pages of replies because I'm trying to destress a bit from work and random stuff (like my water being out at my apartment at the moment), and posting on this thread is certainly NOT a destressor.
So sorry if you replied to me or have a question, I'm not trying to ignore you, just trying to chill for a bit.
I kinda want to talk just a little about Kanye ;D, but maybe will save that for later.
If I start posting on this thread again you are free to bring up your question again here, or just pm me. But need to take my mind off this thread.
Letter signed by J.K. Rowling, Noam Chomsky warning of stifled free speech draws mixed reviews (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/08/letter-harpers-free-speech/)
Quote from: Allyson ChiuWhile their pointed message acknowledges the national reckoning over racism and social injustice and celebrates "overdue demands for police reform," it also argues that the protest movements have helped "weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of differences in favor of ideological conformity."
Per the author, some brainiacs on social media took issue with the signatories' message. I do so love watching the left engage in internecine warfare.
Quote from: Dowder on July 08, 2020, 04:56:41 PM
Well, the way you talk about Trump he is just a restrict or deport kind of president. Maybe acknowledge that the process is still working under him and he doesn't have an issue with legal immigration.
I'd expect you to believe that based on your libertarian beliefs. I think when our population was much smaller and our economy less developed that a generous immigration policy was more appropriate. However, the restrictions placed on it back in the 1920's made sense on a lot of different levels, one of which was labor protection. No surprise that after it was enacted wages increased and the standard of living improved for the average worker. Since the reforms of the 1960's we've seen greater income inequality and wage stagnation. That's one crucial reality for a less restrictive immigration policy and you should acknowledge that.
Poisoning the well there. Nice way to shut down debate like that.
I suppose you haven't noticed, but Trump is doing what he can to limit immigration. Fortunately his administration is too incompetent to get much of it actually implemented.
Immigration restrictions in the 1920s were driven by racism. Protectionism was a fig leaf. In the case of Chinese immigrants, it was blatant and started before 1900. In the case of Europeans the buildup started about 1900. Eugenics was often invoked.
And all this has been a known thing for decades. The income inequality and wage stagnation have nothing to do with immigration.
And since the only real arguments against immigration all boil down to "these people are inferior to us", they are racist. It's not poisoning the well to say something is racist if it is obviously racist. And US immigration policy is racist. Under Trump it's more racist than it has been in our lifetimes.
BLM Cleveland Calls the County's Restocking of Riot Gear 'Irresponsible' (https://www.newsweek.com/blm-cleveland-calls-countys-restocking-riot-gear-irresponsible-1516436)
Looks like BLM members and supporters do not know what the word "irresponsible" means. Just as they do not know what the phrase "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" means.
Trumpsters,
Let us hear your rationalizations on why Alexander Vindman should be driven out of the service.
I am not going to argue with you. I just want to see your BS.
QuoteWe're all so immersed in the culture-porn and politics-porn that inundates our dopamine-based economy that half of us believe that the United States is a racist Nazi hellscape and the other half believes that the United States is literally burning as Maoist mobs run amok.
https://www.epsilontheory.com/the-anti-anarchist-cookbook/?utm_campaign=website&utm_source=ET%20Newsletter&utm_medium=Email
Quote from: Dowder on July 08, 2020, 09:31:06 PM
Tied up in the courts, like most every other pressing issue these days.
Terrible economics and history. One of the major reasons for the anti-Chinese sentiment in California during the 1850's-70's: they were being imported to take away jobs and lower wages—which is what they did, as they worked for less, did more dangerous work and didn't grumble or make demands like some of the other ethnic groups. Historically, 'tho, that's what immigrants of all races, nationalities and backgrounds do: drive down wages to keep costs down, no matter the industry (consider the Bracero Program from yesteryear, H1B visas as a current modern example). Hence in the 1924 Act, it was to stop a later flood of immigrants (primarily European). There was some definite latent racism in both acts, but it was mostly peripheral to the frustration of having to keep competing for jobs, resources, services, etc. Of course, the historical facts don't lie: with the restrictions the wages, salaries and standard of living improved in America. Since the immigration repeal in 1965 and subsequent changes life has gotten harder for the average person, especially blue collar and middle class Americans.
Sloppy circular reasoning. "US Immigration policies are racist! Why? Because they're racist! That's why!" Do better, JBS.
Your entire response is a long display of ignorance of history and economics. The economic changes you blame on immigration had nothing to with immigration and everything to do with deregulation of finance and commerce. And immigration restrictionism was grounded purely on racism. Learn history.
Supreme Court rules on Trump's taxes, granting access to Manhattan prosecutor, but denying Congress, at least for now (https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-supreme-court-trump-tax-records-20200709-sznyejbuizhsnf23oi6pindtu4-story.html)
You win some, you lose some. The key question is whether documents will end up in the public sphere before November.
Quote from: BWV 1080 quoting Ben Hunt on July 09, 2020, 06:23:45 AMWe're all so immersed in the culture-porn and politics-porn that inundates our dopamine-based economy that half of us believe that the United States is a racist Nazi hellscape and the other half believes that the United States is literally burning as Maoist mobs run amok.
The selected quote looks eerily close to something the Postmodernism Generator might create.
(Incidentally, someone should tell Mr McCloskey that khakis don't go with ARs.)
The Court also helpfully suggested legal ways Trump could stall in NY - where, even if he did turn over docs, they'd be secret as part of a grand jury proceeding. We need a rogue leaker.
The other interesting ruling this morning is that Tulsa and a huge swathe of Oklahoma have been an unrecognized Indian reservation for 150 years.
Quote from: Brian on July 09, 2020, 07:13:28 AM
The Court also helpfully suggested legal ways Trump could stall in NY - where, even if he did turn over docs, they'd be secret as part of a grand jury proceeding. We need a rogue leaker.
The other interesting ruling this morning is that Tulsa and a huge swathe of Oklahoma have been an unrecognized Indian reservation for 150 years.
I saw that too...here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53353953
Any idea who the two dissenters were?
PD
Quote from: Brian on July 09, 2020, 07:13:28 AM
The Court also helpfully suggested legal ways Trump could stall in NY - where, even if he did turn over docs, they'd be secret as part of a grand jury proceeding. We need a rogue leaker.
The other interesting ruling this morning is that Tulsa and a huge swathe of Oklahoma have been an unrecognized Indian reservation for 150 years.
The Great White Father was a Schmuck
Sorry, Brian. I missed reading the part of your comment about Oklahoma.....what a mess! >:(
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 09, 2020, 08:10:34 AM
Sorry, Brian. I missed reading the part of your comment about Oklahoma.....what a mess! >:(
Unless, perhaps, you are a member of the Creek Nation. Congress can fix the mess if it chooses.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 09, 2020, 07:56:34 AM
I saw that too...here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53353953
Any idea who the two dissenters were?
PD
Thomas and Alito.
https://fortune.com/2020/07/09/supreme-court-trump-taxes-ruling-vance-mazars-scotus-7-2-decision-tax-returns-subpoena/
--Bruce
Thanks Bruce!
PD
Quote from: Todd on July 09, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Unless, perhaps, you are a member of the Creek Nation. Congress can fix the mess if it chooses.
But you know they won't. Congress never chooses to fix messes: it would mean some sort of commitment to their oath, and we can't have that! :o
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2020, 08:33:59 AM
But you know they won't. Congress never chooses to fix messes: it would mean some sort of commitment to their oath, and we can't have that! :o
8)
Would you suggest that Congress should be part of the "guard rails," and not packed into the careening vehicle?!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 09, 2020, 09:08:11 AM
Would you suggest that Congress should be part of the "guard rails," and not packed into the careening vehicle?!
I've never been impressed with Congress, even less so now. Their mandate apparently does not include taking any political risks, anything that would potentially jeopardize reelection, no matter how important the need. As an example, I give you the immigration situation. If Congress had gotten off the dime on resolving those issues, which is their responsibility, then the current situation with Obama, and then T***p, ruling by executive order would have never come to pass. Obama tried to force Congress to do something, but they wouldn't do it, and so we are where we are now. And that's just one example. So we can bitch and moan about the Executive Branch all we want, much of it is justified, but if f***ing Congress would do their job, then the Executive would be regulated by default.
Just sayin'...
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2020, 09:24:46 AM
I've never been impressed with Congress, even less so now. Their mandate apparently does not include taking any political risks, anything that would potentially jeopardize reelection, no matter how important the need. As an example, I give you the immigration situation. If Congress had gotten off the dime on resolving those issues, which is their responsibility, then the current situation with Obama, and then T***p, ruling by executive order would have never come to pass. Obama tried to force Congress to do something, but they wouldn't do it, and so we are where we are now. And that's just one example. So we can bitch and moan about the Executive Branch all we want, much of it is justified, but if f***ing Congress would do their job, then the Executive would be regulated by default.
Just sayin'...
8)
Ayyup!
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2020, 08:33:59 AMBut you know they won't.
Oklahoma produces a lot of oil. Congress may have incentive to act.
Quote from: Todd on July 09, 2020, 10:00:17 AM
Oklahoma produces a lot of oil. Congress may have incentive to act.
I feel sorry for the Indians if Congress DOES get involved. Tulsa would be a prime spot to start a chain of casinos, once the Covid moves out. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2020, 10:20:33 AM
I feel sorry for the Indians if Congress DOES get involved. Tulsa would be a prime spot to start a chain of casinos, once the Covid moves out. :)
8)
Many wastewater disposal earthquakes going on these days? And where in the state are they?
PD
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2020, 10:20:33 AM
I feel sorry for the Indians if Congress DOES get involved. Tulsa would be a prime spot to start a chain of casinos, once the Covid moves out. :)
8)
Casino owners have been known to contribute to political campaigns from time to time. A negotiated settlement may be possible.
Biden: "Donald Trump cynically claims that he's defending American heritage by embracing the Confederate flag."
Asks rhetorically if Trump knows that 33,000 Pennsylvanians died fighting in the Civil War
Trump, o' course knows squat
"The court's ruling that Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. had the right to obtain them was surely correct. Vance is investigating whether the Trump Organization broke New York law by falsifying business records to hide payments to women Trump allegedly had affairs with in exchange for their silence. In pursuit of that, it is essential that Vance obtain the records whose falsification he is trying to establish. By holding that he can, the court simply followed precedent and general principles of criminal law.
It is irrelevant whether that investigation is politically motivated. (Vance is a Democrat.) Politically motivated but valid investigations are not a novel feature in the U.S. legal system, where state and local district attorneys are elected and federal prosecutors frequently have sought elected office. President Bill Clinton faced a similar civil suit financed in part by his political opponents from a woman, Paula Jones, who alleged he sexually harassed her while a state employee. Courts in the Clinton case held that he had to testify under oath even though he was president because no person is above the law. Requiring Trump to produce the highly relevant information in Vance's investigation is simply the logical consequence of the decision in Clinton's case."
Quote from: Dowder on July 09, 2020, 11:21:13 AM
Lol. Ok. Pretty much all you've said is "immigration restrictionism is racist because its racist and you're racist if you don't want anyone and everyone to immigrate here." Appalling circular and irrational.
Immigration clearly has ties to both commerce and finance. Immigrants take jobs, primarily low skilled and blue collar but also some higher skilled ones where there's a "shortage" (eg, doctors, tech, etc) and regardless of their status they have mortgages, bills and an economic role and influence. In fact, during the last housing crisis many of the foreclosed homes were owned by Latinos, many of whom were immigrants or children of them. So they make an impact and it should seem obvious but your dismissal of immigration as insignificant means you can't really be taken seriously on this subject.
Doubling down in your ignorance.
So you are saying banking deregulation and the federal government's encouragement of the mortgage and housing bubbles had less impact than immigration on the big meltdown of 2008? That the top tier of wealth absorbing ever more of the country's wealth is due to immigrants, and not the top tier of wealth?
If you don't think immigration restriction is rooted in racism, then you don't know very much about immigration restriction.
Ignorance is not magically converted into acumen, by prefacing it with "LOL"
Separately, some are fine with creepy, when the creep is named "Trump"
https://www.youtube.com/v/5K7sa7EeUGc
Chipping away at the women's vote, that Creepy Trump ad.
https://www.youtube.com/v/IenyNQrfuSw
Quote from: Dowder on July 09, 2020, 01:24:05 PM
I know your answer is hopelessly simple.
Also, you're making this an either/or kind of argument, which is bogus. It's far more likely they all went together. I never blamed the immigrants but unrestricted immigration has been encouraged and supported by those you mentioned: business, financial and government elites, for various reasons. Business wants cheaper labor, banks and creditors need debtors and politicians need votes.
Your responses to me have all sounded like immigrant-blaming, so why shouldn't I think you're blaming immigrants?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 09, 2020, 10:45:36 AM
Many wastewater disposal earthquakes going on these days? And where in the state are they?
PD
Tulsa is in the northeast corner, but the earthquakes are, if I recall, distributed throughout the state. I think this piece of territory includes much of the eastern half of the state, I haven't seen a map of the disputed area though...
8)
This is the least blurry map Google would show me.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Okterritory.png/220px-Okterritory.png)
Quote from: Dowder on July 09, 2020, 06:19:48 PM
I never bashed immigrants. There are consequences for them, for good and bad. Insofar as the aforementioned Chinese, I listed their good qualities, not bad. Get a grip, dude.
This is immigrant bashing
QuoteOf course, the historical facts don't lie: with the restrictions the wages, salaries and standard of living improved in America. Since the immigration repeal in 1965 and subsequent changes life has gotten harder for the average person, especially blue collar and middle class Americans.
You're blaming them for economic changes that in fact had little to do with immigration.
And this is immigrant bashing
QuoteIn fact, during the last housing crisis many of the foreclosed homes were owned by Latinos, many of whom were immigrants or children of them. So they make an impact and it should seem obvious
You're claiming they were an important factor in the housing/mortgage bubble.
Every post you have made about immigration merely proves you don't know much about it.
After having seen you make this accusation a half dozen times now: I don't think "circular argument" means what you think it means.
Instead of deflecting why not take this opportunity to do a Google search to see if you really do understand the fallacy correctly?
I do not think Dowder understands what bogus means.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 09, 2020, 09:41:39 PM
I do not think Dowder understands what bogus means.
Look, he's only here to ditto GOP talking points, so why should he?
Quote from: Herman on July 09, 2020, 11:14:33 PM
Look, he's only here to ditto GOP talking points, so why should he?
Agree.
Quote from: JBS on July 09, 2020, 03:29:55 PM
This is the least blurry map Google would show me.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Okterritory.png/220px-Okterritory.png)
Thanks JBS and Gurn,
I saw that map...rather confusing for me at least!
PD
All you people dying of the virus and the police brutality is making me look bad!
Trump the victim: President complains in private about the pandemic hurting himself (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-the-victim-president-complains-in-private-about-the-pandemic-hurting-himself/2020/07/09/187142c6-c089-11ea-864a-0dd31b9d6917_story.html)
Quote from: Herman on July 09, 2020, 11:14:33 PM
Look, he's only here to ditto GOP talking points, so why should he?
One of the signs: Any news that doesn't suit you is "Fake News"
Pentagon chief confirms he was briefed on intelligence about Russian payments to the Taliban (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/09/politics/esper-briefed-russian-payments-to-taliban/index.html)
Some further news about Oklahoma. I ran across this article (link from a BBC one) which helped to clarify things a bit. It sounds like the claims of upcoming chaos will/could be much less drastic in nature than initially reported? One of the possibilities, though, could be changes in taxation by the state of Native Americans living there, so wonder how that could effect local programs/funding, etc.?
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/supreme-court-hands-oklahoma-a-loss-on-tribal-lands-fight/article_4c33fbe8-c1ed-11ea-8c16-2705dc65414a.html#4
Here's a link to the BBC article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53358330
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 10, 2020, 05:45:12 AMIt sounds like the claims of upcoming chaos will/could be much less drastic in nature than initially reported?
Who claimed that it would or will be chaos?
Quote from: Todd on July 10, 2020, 05:53:35 AM
Who claimed that it would or will be chaos?
I found this for you. From what I understand, it's been various state and federal officials who were arguing against the decision. I honestly haven't been following it that closely and am curious as to what news others have heard.
https://kfor.com/news/local/justices-rule-part-of-oklahoma-remains-tribal-reservation/ (It's a combo of a new video and article)
I actually am excited and cautiously optimistic for the Native American tribes there the more that I think about it. Hopefully, it will be the start of good things to come. :)
You can also read Chief Justice John Roberts' dissenting opinion in that BBC article.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 10, 2020, 06:44:42 AM
I found this for you. From what I understand, it's been various state and federal officials who were arguing against the decision. I honestly haven't been following it that closely and am curious as to what news others have heard.
https://kfor.com/news/local/justices-rule-part-of-oklahoma-remains-tribal-reservation/ (It's a combo of a new video and article)
I actually am excited and cautiously optimistic for the Native American tribes there the more that I think about it. Hopefully, it will be the start of good things to come. :)
You can also read Chief Justice John Roberts' dissenting opinion in that BBC article.
PD
That's a link to an Oklahoma NBC affiliate that ran an original content AP article that included vague language about officials warning of chaos, and a reporter stating something about how the decision will turn things upside down. That seems like press sensationalism to me. Gorsuch mentioned the positive working relationship between the State of Oklahoma and the impacted tribes, and I suspect he is at least modestly well informed. SCOTUS issued a decision and now implementation will begin, with professionals on both sides relying on established legal and operational mechanisms to address a novel situation. Working through the ramifications of the decision will take years, involve rule changes and fresh lawsuits, and will generally be slow moving and non-chaotic. It will also open up the possibility of new similar cases across the country, some of which may succeed from a Native American perspective.
And why on earth would I go to the BBC to read a SCOTUS opinion or dissent when I go straight to the source: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pdf
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 10, 2020, 05:04:14 AM
Thanks JBS and Gurn,
I saw that map...rather confusing for me at least!
PD
Hi, PD, I see you have found some info, although I haven't seen a good map posted here yet. Here is another good link (https://www.kxii.com/2020/07/10/oklahoma-attorney-explains-supreme-court-ruling-for-american-indian-reservations/), I found it especially easy to understand, which isn't always true of legal documents! :D
And here is a map, very straightforward. The orange is the disputed land, the grey is the rest of the state. It does indeed appear to be half the state!
(https://i.imgur.com/6yvuNtq.jpg)
Overall, it looks like the main effect will be whether they pay state taxes, and whether state law enforcement has jurisdiction over them. I don't see any imminent chaos, this is precisely what prevails on Reservation lands all over the country. :)
8)
The dissenting judges fear that
Quote
« the Court has profoundly destabilized the governance of eastern Oklahoma. The decision today creates significant uncertainty for the State's continuing authority over any area that touches Indian affairs," wrote Roberts, who was joined by Justices Samuel A. Alito Jr., Brett M. Kavanaugh and Clarence Thomas.
« Profoundly destabilized governance » and « significant uncertainty » is legalese jargon for administrative chaos. Judge Gorsuch, writing for the majority, does not agree:
Quote
"We do not pretend to foretell the future and we proceed well aware of the potential for cost and conflict around jurisdictional boundaries, especially ones that have gone unappreciated for so long," Gorsuch wrote. "But it is unclear why pessimism should rule the day. With the passage of time, Oklahoma and its Tribes have proven they can work successfully together as partners."
Long standing neglect of such judicial issues is being addressed and courts are sending local governments back to do their homework. Gorsuch again:
Quote
« Unlawful acts, performed long enough and with sufficient vigor, are never enough to amend the law,"
It should go without saying, but saying it loud and clear is the best way to be heard by all.
Quote from: Dowder on July 09, 2020, 08:31:41 PM
If you think immigration doesn't affect and stagnate wages in certain industries and sectors you need to brush up on your economics. Quite frankly, your knowledge of it is painfully limited. Homes got foreclosed on because the tenants couldn't pay their mortgages—mortgages they had no business having. Many were low income earners with ARMs and quite a lot of those were from immigrant families or children of immigrants. I'm not laying the blame on them entirely (re-read my previous posts).
This coming from a guy with circular arguments. LOL. Ok, buddy.
Only your most recent post [before this one] does not blame immigrants entirely. Or at least, can reasonably be read as doing so. And even blaming them in part is fallacious. Immigrants had minimal impact on the housing bubble. Loosening restrictions on the 60s had no real impact on wages and job growth.
Your claim amounts to saying the water damage to a house is due to the leaky faucet in the kitchen and not the river that overlowed its banks and just flooded the neighborhood.
If you understood these things to the degree you think you do, you wouldn't say those things because you would know they are wrong.
Seen on Twitter:
"Hell. I thought I'd never see the day when a bunch of Trump-loving, immigrant-bashing, build-a-wall-to-keep-the-brown-invasion-out nationalist types, would be out there fighting in defense of frijoles and adobo."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 10, 2020, 10:09:51 AM
Seen on Twitter:
"Hell. I thought I'd never see the day when a bunch of Trump-loving, immigrant-bashing, build-a-wall-to-keep-the-brown-invasion-out nationalist types, would be out there fighting in defense of frijoles and adobo."
Goya is in fact the epitome of American companies. It was started in the 1930s in New Jersey by an immigrant couple from Spain.
Meanwhile, this is how Team Trump treats immigrants who are here and have the right to be here even by Trump standards.
https://mobile.twitter.com/crampell/status/1281372966778032128
Quote from: Todd on July 10, 2020, 07:09:12 AM
That's a link to an Oklahoma NBC affiliate that ran an original content AP article that included vague language about officials warning of chaos, and a reporter stating something about how the decision will turn things upside down. That seems like press sensationalism to me. Gorsuch mentioned the positive working relationship between the State of Oklahoma and the impacted tribes, and I suspect he is at least modestly well informed. SCOTUS issued a decision and now implementation will begin, with professionals on both sides relying on established legal and operational mechanisms to address a novel situation. Working through the ramifications of the decision will take years, involve rule changes and fresh lawsuits, and will generally be slow moving and non-chaotic. It will also open up the possibility of new similar cases across the country, some of which may succeed from a Native American perspective.
And why on earth would I go to the BBC to read a SCOTUS opinion or dissent when I go straight to the source: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pdf
I only heard of this yesterday, so as I mentioned, I was trying to look into it. One thing that did quite bother me initially was that this case was being brought up by a man who was convicted of raping a 4-year old and his argument and also the possibility that this could effect a number of other case decisions. Thankfully, that doesn't seem to be the case (forget where else I had read a bit about the suit). And, yes, I agree, that there will be other cases and effects from this decision....hopefully for the better. I'm glad that they (the Supreme Court) DID come to the decision that they did. And you asked where I had been reading about it, so I provided you the links, that's all.
PD
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2020, 07:47:04 AM
Hi, PD, I see you have found some info, although I haven't seen a good map posted here yet. Here is another good link (https://www.kxii.com/2020/07/10/oklahoma-attorney-explains-supreme-court-ruling-for-american-indian-reservations/), I found it especially easy to understand, which isn't always true of legal documents! :D
And here is a map, very straightforward. The orange is the disputed land, the grey is the rest of the state. It does indeed appear to be half the state!
(https://i.imgur.com/6yvuNtq.jpg)
Overall, it looks like the main effect will be whether they pay state taxes, and whether state law enforcement has jurisdiction over them. I don't see any imminent chaos, this is precisely what prevails on Reservation lands all over the country. :)
8)
Thank you for the links Gurn. And yes, I did (like you) find a better map image. :)
The dissenting judges fear that
Quote
« the Court has profoundly destabilized the governance of eastern Oklahoma. The decision today creates significant uncertainty for the State's continuing authority over any area that touches Indian affairs," wrote Roberts, who was joined by Justices Samuel A. Alito Jr., Brett M. Kavanaugh and Clarence Thomas.
« Profoundly destabilized governance » and « significant uncertainty » is legalese jargon for administrative chaos. Judge Gorsuch, writing for the majority, does not agree:
Quote
"We do not pretend to foretell the future and we proceed well aware of the potential for cost and conflict around jurisdictional boundaries, especially ones that have gone unappreciated for so long," Gorsuch wrote. "But it is unclear why pessimism should rule the day. With the passage of time, Oklahoma and its Tribes have proven they can work successfully together as partners."
Long standing neglect of such judicial issues is being addressed and courts are sending local governments back to do their homework. Gorsuch again:
Quote
« Unlawful acts, performed long enough and with sufficient vigor, are never enough to amend the law,"
It should go without saying, but saying it loud and clear is the best way to be heard by all.
[/quote]+1 André I agree with you!
EDIT: Tried to fix it....no luck...apologies André
As long Trump supporters keep repeating the same talking points...
After dominating American politics for twenty-five years:
Gun violence is out of control.
Police misconduct is out of control (I know 90% of police are OK but the 10% scare the hell out of me.)
Racisms is rampant.
The middle class is being destroyed. Instead of a socialist state we are turning into an oligarchy were the top 1% controls 90% of the wealth.
Corporate monopolies are destroying small businesses. (I can come up with all sorts of small independent businesses that no longer exist: book stores, office suppliers, pet stores, etc.)
Our heath care system is so messed up that over 100,000 Americans have died and the number is climbing.
The good news is that the wealthy are paying less and less taxes while the rest of us...
Roger Stone has shown that it is definitely good to have friends in high places. That poor man has been through hell.
We all knew what Trump was going to do. Why act surprised?
Quote from: arpeggio on July 11, 2020, 07:16:59 AM
We all knew what Trump was going to do. Why act surprised?
Only the next act in a pattern of corruption, and obstruction of justice.
"What racism?"
"What misdeeds?"
"Russia. Right."
Immigrants create jobs, and not all of them are filled by immigrants, but it's OK if most of them are at first. The big deal about the immigrant add,
as with all economic factors, is the aggregate effect on the local and national economy, which is positive. Immigrants pay taxes that support the financial burdens that ensue when the population goes up. Towns and regions are revived by an influx of people who start businesses, as immigrants always do.
I like immigrants. They are happy to be here. I'm happy they are here, whether they are unfortunately colored or not.
Whether it's Trump's imperial presidency, the rush to return children to school, the economy or Republicans' last gasp to reward business allies, Pelosi is holding all the cards. The question is just how long Republicans plan to infuriate the public and hold out on widely popular measures.
Trump's drop in polls has confident Democrats sensing 'a tsunami coming' in November (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-drop-in-polls-has-confident-democrats-sensing-a-tsunami-coming-in-november/2020/07/11/48a76468-c2c6-11ea-b4f6-cb39cd8940fb_story.html)
Looks like another blue wave is coming. This one should be thigh deep rather than shin deep like the last one.
Quote from: Dowder on July 12, 2020, 05:46:59 AM
Not very nuanced, pie in the sky rhetoric. As if immigrants don't use services, need resources and compete for jobs (or jail cells—not all do legal work). The importation of labor is one reason why certain industries have depressed wages and probably why we continue to allow our public schools to keep failing so many of our children. The Dems used to care about the blue collar and poor Americans but now they've become the party of open borders, immigration and amnesty for all because anything other than that is just racist.
I'm talking about the effects immigrants have in the world. Of course they use services paid for through state and local taxes they pay like everyone else. Do you want a tax break for white native born people? If you want to help blue collar people help all of them together.
Dr. Todd Grande's video on the psychology of cancel culture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0rIR7jcLZ4
He would associate the Big 5 scores for the individuals involved in cancel culture to score like this:
Low in openness
Low in conscientiousness
Mid-level to high in extraversion
Low in agreeableness
Very high in neuroticism
Sounds like a combination from hell.
But he gave basically the same psychological profile to his video on the psychology of Karen's. Seems basically today's "cancel culture" is literally just a bunch of younger Karen's, which is ironic since it is the younger generation complaining about them...
That combination is literally the psychological profile of a bitchy person.
In other words...
low openness- closed minded
low conscientiousness- is impulsive
mid to high extraversion- chatty (in this case, not afraid to communicate the negativity)
low agreeableness- argumentative
high neuroticism- non-stop complaining
Trump on private border wall segment: 'It was only done to make me look bad' (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/12/trump-border-wall-make-me-look-bad-357706)
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
QuoteDr. Todd Grande's video.....
Uh oh, my culture just canceled the doctor, probably for mental health reasons.
People are censorious in flocks, and always have been. Culture has a lot of cancel in it, you might say. It don't decide cases,
I do.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif)
Quote from: drogulus on July 12, 2020, 02:13:09 PM
People are censorious in flocks, and always have been.
True.
See: Salem Witch Trials.
Also: I was a cashier year for 8 years. The Karen meme is legit. If I had to choose a particular demographic that is most likely to engage in "can I speak to your manager?" and entitled behaviors over very petty things, not admit when wrong, etc. that would be the demographic.
But based on the archetype seems his evaluation would be pretty legit. And the worst part is that corporate America tells you "the customer is always right." So you have to bend over backwards to validate their bad behavior. If anyone, I would blame corporate America a lot for the current cancel culture phenomenon. People learn that their bad behavior gets rewarded, and that attitude spreads to the next generation.
Quote from: drogulus on July 12, 2020, 02:13:09 PM
Trump on private border wall segment: 'It was only done to make me look bad' (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/12/trump-border-wall-make-me-look-bad-357706)
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Uh oh, my culture just canceled the doctor, probably for mental health reasons.
People are censorious in flocks, and always have been. Culture has a lot of cancel in it, you might say. It don't decide cases, I do. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif)
Poor baby!
Quote from: greg on July 12, 2020, 10:14:16 AM
Dr. Todd Grande's video on the psychology of cancel culture
Just another guy from an obscure university angling for his fifteen minutes.
Quote from: Herman on July 12, 2020, 11:08:27 PM
Just another guy from an obscure university angling for his fifteen minutes.
Have you looked at his channel? It's pretty entertaining and rarely political. In fact, there's lots of good stuff on there about psychological issues - stuff that plenty of people find helpful. I think it's easy to scoff.
Quote from: greg on July 12, 2020, 04:35:59 PM
True.
See: Salem Witch Trials.
Also: I was a cashier year for 8 years. The Karen meme is legit. If I had to choose a particular demographic that is most likely to engage in "can I speak to your manager?" and entitled behaviors over very petty things, not admit when wrong, etc. that would be the demographic.
But based on the archetype seems his evaluation would be pretty legit. And the worst part is that corporate America tells you "the customer is always right." So you have to bend over backwards to validate their bad behavior. If anyone, I would blame corporate America a lot for the current cancel culture phenomenon. People learn that their bad behavior gets rewarded, and that attitude spreads to the next generation.
it may seem silly, but I object to making everyone named Karen pay for this. I ran into some people on FB named Karen who seemed shell-shocked by it. It's more social media mindlessness.
As for cancel culture: notice how the left tries to downplay it? I remember when the left wing was all about dialogue and growth and change. Now it's about destruction. And it's a mindless narcissistic social media fad to destroy in the name of, "make me feel safe."
I think the idea of "cancel culture" is pretty much an inflation of typical phenomena for the social media age. As far as the left wing goes, they often get their spokespeeps chosen for the purpose of cancelling them. The more outrageous you are the more you are supposed to represent the left in its organized lunacy. There, notice how I try to downplay it? I must be "one of them".
Growth and change come from the left because by definition you are on the left if you support growthy changey stuff. Emperor Vespasian said on his deathbed "I seem to be turning into a god". Well, I want economic expansion that lifts all boats and genuine public health care. For that alone I seem to be turning into a leftist. On the principle that what things are is what they do, I "am" one.
For the swamp-lovers:
https://www.youtube.com/v/vG9HWQlbw9Y
" Russia. Right."
https://www.youtube.com/v/6tJwyuXjKqY
Quote from: Herman on July 12, 2020, 11:08:27 PM
Just another guy from an obscure university angling for his fifteen minutes.
Maybe check out his channel? Not sure what does someone's university have to do with anything?
Quote from: milk on July 13, 2020, 02:43:58 AM
it may seem silly, but I object to making everyone named Karen pay for this. I ran into some people on FB named Karen who seemed shell-shocked by it. It's more social media mindlessness.
For real. That's my aunt's name but she's cool. Unfortunate.
Quote from: drogulus on July 13, 2020, 06:07:10 AM
Growth and change come from the left because by definition you are on the left if you support growthy changey stuff.
This is what I don't get: the left is supposed to be, or was, about openness. This vibes with me since my personality scores VERY high on the openness to experience trait (95-100% each time), and there is supposed to be some scientific correlation between that trait and being predisposed to being liberal.
But with all the push to censorship/banning, all it does is reduce the amount of ideas out there. It feels more like some different version of right wing puritanism, rather than a form of growth.
Quote from: greg on July 13, 2020, 07:56:22 AM
Maybe check out his channel? Not sure what does someone's university have to do with anything?
For real. That's my aunt's name but she's cool. Unfortunate.
This is what I don't get: the left is supposed to be, or was, about openness. This vibes with me since my personality scores VERY high on the openness to experience trait (95-100% each time), and there is supposed to be some scientific correlation between that trait and being predisposed to being liberal.
But with all the push to censorship/banning, all it does is reduce the amount of ideas out there. It feels more like some different version of right wing puritanism, rather than a form of growth.
There is an illiberal left tendency, and I've commented on it a number of times. What's not to get?
As for what the left is about, it doesn't have to be supposed, it can be derived from history. It's a wide spectrum and most of the action in the US comes from a dialogue among the various groups within it, including the distinctive brand of American conservatism that can be fairly characterized as "go slow" liberalism.
Trump Adviser Claims China Sent 'Weaponized Virus,' Calls Joe Biden the 'Candidate of the Chinese Communist Party' (https://www.newsweek.com/trump-adviser-claims-china-sent-weaponized-virus-calls-joe-biden-candidate-chinese-communist-1517240)
I knew it! Those dastardly commies are at it again.
Quote from: greg on July 13, 2020, 07:56:22 AM
Maybe check out his channel? Not sure what does someone's university have to do with anything?
If you're really good you will get a job at a better university, for better pay, and you will get better students and more stimulating colleagues.
I once visited a university like the one this guy works at, and my heart sank.
Staunch belief in meritocracy warms the heart.
Quote from: Herman on July 13, 2020, 09:50:12 AM
If you're really good you will get a job at a better university, for better pay, and you will get better students and more stimulating colleagues.
I once visited a university like the one this guy works at, and my heart sank.
From what I understand, he is, or was, working as a counselor or psychiatrist rather than at a university.
Also seems like a generalization that if one obscure university is not so good then they all must be.
Quote from: drogulus on July 13, 2020, 08:50:19 AM
There is an illiberal left tendency, and I've commented on it a number of times. What's not to get?
As for what the left is about, it doesn't have to be supposed, it can be derived from history. It's a wide spectrum and most of the action in the US comes from a dialogue among the various groups within it, including the distinctive brand of American conservatism that can be fairly characterized as "go slow" liberalism.
True, I guess that aspect is more of a leftist rather than a liberal one. I'd say generally free speech is a liberal thing and censorship is a leftist thing (probably mostly just a matter of authoritarianism vs. libertarianism on the left).
That's a good take on American conservatism, btw. I like that.
The National Review takes a brief break from Trump-cheerleading:
An Indefensible Commutation (https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/an-indefensible-commutation/)
Quote from: Herman on July 13, 2020, 09:50:12 AM
If you're really good you will get a job at a better university, for better pay, and you will get better students and more stimulating colleagues.
I once visited a university like the one this guy works at, and my heart sank.
Yeah, what a loser. :o Students too.
Quote from: Dowder on July 13, 2020, 05:44:40 PM
Typically the person claiming the most general concern for the plight of the poor, downtrodden and discriminated is usually an elitist with the most personal contempt for them. :-\
It wouldn't matter if it was generally usually true or not. It usually isn't, generally speaking, because most people aren't contemptuous like that. I'm not even sure that people with the
least concern for the poor or downtrodden are personally contemptuous like that. It mostly a handy generalization to avoid dealing with serious problems. If some elitists want to help the poor, they are faking it, and that dissolves the problem into a fog of personal characteristics. I'm unconvinced. I think there's more to propositions than who supports them or how elite they are.
I do note that it's a fairly elite argument to make, kind of inside baseball to be perfectly something about it.
Quote from: Dowder on July 13, 2020, 05:44:40 PM
Typically the person claiming the most general concern for the plight of the poor, downtrodden and discriminated is usually an elitist with the most personal contempt for them. :-\
Another conservative talking point that I have heard many times. This is one of the fallacies I used to believe in my conservative days. As I got to know liberals I found that it is false. Every liberal elitist I have come in contact with has empathy for the 'poor, downtrodden and discriminated'.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 13, 2020, 09:39:31 PM
Another conservative talking point that I have heard many times. This is one of the fallacies I used to believe in my conservative days. As I got to know liberals I found that it is false. Every liberal elitist I have come in contact with has empathy for the 'poor, downtrodden and discriminated'.
Unlike, to indicate the most obvious example: Trump.
The most contemptible American in history:
"Trump is willing to undermine lifesaving advice and guidelines so as to confuse the public and shield himself from accountability. Remember, like many authoritarian personalities Trump does not so much expect you will believe all his piffle, but rather you will cease to believe in any form of objective reality. We have gone beyond the point where Trump demonstrates concern about convincing people to act in responsible ways and thereby reduce the threat of the virus (which would enable people to return to work and school). He simply declares by fiat — and his enablers chime in — that others should be as dismissive of expert advice and counsel as he is. Live with it. Suck it up. Life is risky.
"This is the natural consequence of a cult of personality in which the leader's ego and survival are paramount. Trump wants to slow testing (which alerts those infected and those they have encountered so they can be traced and quarantined) because it makes the numbers — "his" numbers — look bad. No president has behaved in such monstrously self-absorbed ways, willing to wave away the lives of Americans so he can appear more successful.
"The Republican Party is lock-step with him. Republicans have not only abandoned truth, their oaths of office and concern for democratic values (not a peep out of most of them since Trump commuted Roger Stone's sentence). Elected Republicans also have jettisoned concern for the health and well-being of others. What matters is to keep Trump — no matter how crazy and irresponsible — mollified. And if others are harmed? Republicans are more than willing to consign those unlucky souls to the risks of illness and death. Life is risky — for other people."
Reports from the Texas Democratic Senate primary have MJ Hegar leading with 52% of the vote vs. Royce West with 48%. Areas with many more votes outstanding include El Paso, San Antonio, San Marcos, Austin, and the Rio Grande Valley (which have favoured Hegar), Houston and the Metroplex (which have favoured West), and the suburbs (Denton, Collin, Fort Bend, Galveston & Brazoria counties) which have largely been a wash; as such Hegar seems heavily favoured to win.
I looked the candidates up and they both seem fairly uninspiring, but Beto O'Rourke also seemed fairly uninspiring in 2018 and he did nonetheless get 48% of the vote.
I have no particular interest in who wins or whatever but Texas is an interesting state from a demographic-political perspective. Your generic Democrat seems to have a ceiling of about 44% of the vote (as in e.g. the 2018 governor's race). Hillary Clinton won 46%; O'Rourke 48%, although in a midterm year and with an unpopular opponent. Texas will certainly not flip blue in a presidential election year with an incumbent president who's very popular among Republicans; the question is how much can Hegar and/or West pull in, and through what coalition. 44% would seem to be a typical performance; 42% would be if they proved a weak general election candidate, whereas 46% would be a strong performance (and a sign that the state might be genuinely competitive in 2024/2026 if trends continue—bearing in mind that as recently as 2012 the "generic Democrat" polled at around 40-41%).
Also if you are actually from Texas and were genuinely invested in this race I apologise.
Meanwhile in Alabama Jeff "Keebler" Sessions has lost the GOP senatorial primary to Tommy Tuberville, who was endorsed by Trump, mostly to spite Sessions.
Tuberville will face Doug Jones in November.
Yes, that was unsurprising. Tuberville is almost certain to win, although Jones may pick up some disgruntled Alabama Tide diehards.
Tuberville is a former football coach. It was almost unfair.
Meanwhile, on the Trump front, Mary Trump should succeed where others failed: Mary Trump calls for President to 'resign' (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/15/politics/mary-trump-donald-trump-resign/index.html)
"Imagine being of such low character that you'd watch yesterday's WH press conference and STILL argue Trump is fit, better than Joe Biden for the country. The shills are constantly made to seem more foolish by the melting clown in the WH"
The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mBTSduqO5ckJ:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
The discussion of how opinions on racism are monitored and evaluated by presumptive experts is one that only happens with a background of liberal assumptions about free expression and the value of debate.
And herein is the real problem with White Fragility. DiAngelo does not see fit to address why all of this agonizing soul-searching is necessary to forging change in society. One might ask just how a people can be poised for making change when they have been taught that pretty much anything they say or think is racist and thus antithetical to the good. What end does all this self-mortification serve? Impatient with such questions, DiAngelo insists that "wanting to jump over the hard, personal work and get to 'solutions'" is a "foundation of white fragility." In other words, for DiAngelo, the whole point is the suffering. And note the scare quotes around solutions, as if wanting such a thing were somehow ridiculous.
A corollary question is why Black people need to be treated the way DiAngelo assumes we do. The very assumption is deeply condescending to all proud Black people. In my life, racism has affected me now and then at the margins, in very occasional social ways, but has had no effect on my access to societal resources; if anything, it has made them more available to me than they would have been otherwise. Nor should anyone dismiss me as a rara avis. Being middle class, upwardly mobile, and Black has been quite common during my existence since the mid-1960s, and to deny this is to assert that affirmative action for Black people did not work.
In 2020—as opposed to 1920—I neither need nor want anyone to muse on how whiteness privileges them over me. Nor do I need wider society to undergo teachings in how to be exquisitely sensitive about my feelings. I see no connection between DiAngelo's brand of reeducation and vigorous, constructive activism in the real world on issues of import to the Black community. And I cannot imagine that any Black readers could willingly submit themselves to DiAngelo's ideas while considering themselves adults of ordinary self-regard and strength. Few books about race have more openly infantilized Black people than this supposedly authoritative tome.
I frequently agree with McWhorter and feel not the least fragile about it, or about anything related to my identity, which probably has more whiteness in it than I'm aware of in the context of belonging to a white majority where I live. I distinguish between performative leftism and operational leftism and count the latter as more worthy of attention.
From the National Museum of African American History and Culture:
(https://nmaahc.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/image_caption/public/images/captioned/whiteculture_info_1.png?itok=tO7RMVFi)
Literally sounds like it was written by a white supremacist.
https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
I skimmed through the article, saw this, and stopped reading:
QuoteHere are some examples she gives on what white privilege looks like in day to day living:
I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
How dumb you have to be to come up with this stuff? So in my city I'm a minority, does that mean I lost part of my white privilege?
And does that mean a Chinese person in China has white privilege living in their own country? ::)
The one item in the above post I take issue with is the "Emphasis on Scientific Method". A significant number, maybe not the majority, do not believe in science. Two major issues they deny is evolution and climate change.
https://www.youtube.com/v/KWuLfvL20aY
Quote from: arpeggio on July 15, 2020, 04:43:01 PM
The one item in the above post I take issue with is the "Emphasis on Scientific Method". A significant number, maybe not the majority, do not believe in science. Two major issues they deny is evolution and climate change.
The problem with that poster or pamphlet or whatever it might be is that implies that all those values are somehow alien, imposed by exterior factors, to minorities. As if, say, delayed gratification is something blacks learned from whites.
The other problem is that this was published by one of the Smithsonian museums, and not some fringe social justice group.
As a liberal I do not always agree with liberals all of the time.
I have all sorts of problems with the stereotypical nonsense perpetrated by the poster. Sure there are many whites who fit into this picture, but not all of us . I have many white liberal friends who would consider the poster trash and insulting. It is no different than the stereotypical nonsense that has been disseminated by white racists concerning people of color.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 15, 2020, 06:49:12 PM
As a liberal I do not always agree with liberals all of the time.
Of course!
(https://i.insider.com/5f0f5357aee6a86ae8147634?width=893&format=jpeg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec7qtxEXYAIcmGr?format=jpg&name=900x900)
sorry...no words
Don't try to soften the blow. This piece of garbage is exactly what McWhorter talked about in his
Atlantic article.
This has fuck to do with disagreeing with liberals, because this is illiberal propaganda and doesn't even bother to disguise its coercive, bullying tone and content.
Quote from: greg on July 15, 2020, 04:36:33 PM
Literally sounds like it was written by a white supremacist.
It might have well been produced for them, given the content and the stereotypical propaganda appearance.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 15, 2020, 07:00:36 PM
(https://i.insider.com/5f0f5357aee6a86ae8147634?width=893&format=jpeg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec7qtxEXYAIcmGr?format=jpg&name=900x900)
sorry...no words
Just had to check if they're fake.
They aren't.
Quote from: greg on July 15, 2020, 04:36:33 PM
So in my city I'm a minority, does that mean I lost part of my white privilege? And does that mean a Chinese person in China has white privilege living in their own country? ::)
I'd think there's probably a privilege of being in the majority in any country or area. I don't feel as comfortable for example in a pub or shop in Wales where everyone else is talking Welsh.
Harvard professor's research: 'Defunding the police could cost thousands of black lives'
"Defunding the police is not a solution and could cost thousands of black lives," Roland Fryer told The College Fix in an interview about his latest research...
In a Manhattan Institute video late last month, Fryer exclaimed that he encountered an "absolute refusal to grapple with the data" from the media and "insistence" that he should not publicize it.
Referring to a reporter whom he showed the research, Fryer told The Wall Street Journal's Jason Riley: "I thought the person might sit with the numbers for a bit and go, 'Damn, a thousand lives. That's a lot.'"
https://www.thecollegefix.com/harvard-professors-research-defunding-the-police-could-cost-thousands-of-black-lives/ (https://www.thecollegefix.com/harvard-professors-research-defunding-the-police-could-cost-thousands-of-black-lives/)
In Wake Of Continued Gun Violence, Prominent Members Of Black Community Call On NYPD To Bring Back Anti-Crime Unit (https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/07/13/new-york-city-shootings-nypd-anti-crime-unit-eric-adams-tony-herbert/)
Maybe defunding the police is a good idea. Maybe it is not.
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 15, 2020, 07:00:36 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec7qtxEXYAIcmGr?format=jpg&name=900x900)
sorry...no words
Beans for bad hombres
Quote from: milk on July 16, 2020, 03:26:38 AM
Harvard professor's research: 'Defunding the police could cost thousands of black lives'
I think it's always been clear that the solution needs to be less blunt, less slogan-ey.
And, for the "Right. Russia" claque:
Russia attempted to steal research on potential coronavirus vaccines, U.S., Britain and Canada say
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2020, 05:44:13 AM
I think it's always been clear that the solution needs to be less blunt, less slogan-ey.
It may come down to what is funded besides police. I don't think residents are lobbying for less money to be spent making their neighborhoods safer.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2020, 05:44:13 AM
I think it's always been clear that the solution needs to be less blunt, less slogan-ey.
Although 'Demilitarize and Deunionize' works well enough
Quote from: drogulus on July 16, 2020, 06:19:26 AM
It may come down to what is funded besides police. I don't think residents are lobbying for less money to be spent making their neighborhoods safer.
That's not what Freyer argues. He argues for something he calls "proactive police activity." You may be right though for all I know. I think there's a huge variation between cities, with a place like NYC having had many fewer shootings than Chicago, if I have my facts straight.
I don't know if this is reliable:
In Wake Of Continued Gun Violence, Prominent Members Of Black Community Call On NYPD To Bring Back Anti-Crime Unithttps://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/07/13/new-york-city-shootings-nypd-anti-crime-unit-eric-adams-tony-herbert/ (https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/07/13/new-york-city-shootings-nypd-anti-crime-unit-eric-adams-tony-herbert/) it could be bogus.
But, I do see America becoming more hostile to dialogue about this issue.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2020, 05:44:13 AM
I think it's always been clear that the solution needs to be less blunt, less slogan-ey.
On the other hand, I'm heartened that it looks like there could be some kind of significant reforms to police culture in this country.
Quote from: milk on July 16, 2020, 07:28:09 AM
That's not what Freyer argues. He argues for something he calls "proactive police activity." You may be right though for all I know. I think there's a huge variation between cities, with a place like NYC having had many fewer shootings than Chicago, if I have my facts straight.
I don't know if this is reliable:
In Wake Of Continued Gun Violence, Prominent Members Of Black Community Call On NYPD To Bring Back Anti-Crime Unit
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/07/13/new-york-city-shootings-nypd-anti-crime-unit-eric-adams-tony-herbert/ (https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/07/13/new-york-city-shootings-nypd-anti-crime-unit-eric-adams-tony-herbert/) it could be bogus.
But, I do see America becoming more hostile to dialogue about this issue.
The point is to address reasons for hostility and stop treating the fears of residents as though it it comes from "radical agitators" or whatever term of opprobrium is used now.
There are extremists. They don't cause mass movements, they exploit them, and in a way offer aid and comfort to those hostile to protesters goals. Historically revolutionary groups try to radicalize demonstrators by provoking violence (that's not just the method of Bolsheviks, it would also cover the activities of the Boogaloo right and the white supremacists the FBI considers the most serious terrorist threats on the domestic side).
I'd listen to residents who say police units that get guns off the streets are doing good work.
Quote from: BWV 1080 on July 16, 2020, 06:55:47 AM
Although 'Demilitarize and Deunionize' works well enough
Aye.
Not fair!
https://www.youtube.com/v/RHFHv-2LIO0
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 16, 2020, 02:52:12 AM
I'd think there's probably a privilege of being in the majority in any country or area. I don't feel as comfortable for example in a pub or shop in Wales where everyone else is talking Welsh.
Yes, thank you! I wanted to see if anyone would say what it is: Majority Privilege.
I've seen a lot of examples provided in the past and they confuse the two: White and Majority. There is a difference.
Of course, one might be able to argue that some type of white privilege exists, and if I thought about it surely I could think of some example... back in the day it was clear cut, no question, but nowadays many other factors trump that so much that it's much less of a point (I suppose the interactions between police officers could be the best, most obvious ones maybe to make the whole privilege case).
Quote from: arpeggio on July 15, 2020, 04:43:01 PM
The one item in the above post I take issue with is the "Emphasis on Scientific Method". A significant number, maybe not the majority, do not believe in science. Two major issues they deny is evolution and climate change.
Well it just isn't race specific, that's for sure.
Quote from: JBS on July 15, 2020, 05:01:00 PM
The problem with that poster or pamphlet or whatever it might be is that implies that all those values are somehow alien, imposed by exterior factors, to minorities. As if, say, delayed gratification is something blacks learned from whites.
The other problem is that this was published by one of the Smithsonian museums, and not some fringe social justice group.
YES.
This nonsense is only growing like a tumor.
Quote from: drogulus on July 15, 2020, 07:19:36 PM
It might have well been produced for them, given the content and the stereotypical propaganda appearance.
But why would the
National Museum of African American History and Culture publish white supremacy sounding stuff on their website? Seems odds would point it to being a liberal organization, maybe?
The guess I've heard is that it's just Marxist ideology.
One guess I've had is that it's the next evolution of SJW ideology, gone so far anti-racist that it gets back to being racist.
Tbh I don't know what to think...
Quote from: greg on July 16, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
But why would the National Museum of African American History and Culture publish white supremacy sounding stuff on their website? Seems odds would point it to being a liberal organization, maybe?
The guess I've heard is that it's just Marxist ideology.
One guess I've had is that it's the next evolution of SJW ideology, gone so far anti-racist that it gets back to being racist.
Tbh I don't know what to think...
I was wondering if the chart was supposed to be telling people the values white culture had imposed on them. So they could be rejected in favour of "someone's own" values? Anyway the chart's been cancelled already.
Since yesterday, certain content in the "Talking About Race" portal has been the subject of questions that we have taken seriously. We have listened to public sentiment and have removed a chart that does not contribute to the productive discussion we had intended.
Here's this:
An anonymous professor of history at U.C. Berkeley wrote open letter...Its authenticity was confirmed by Kentucky State University Assistant Professor of Political Science, Wilfred Reilley, who says he was sent a copy of the letter along with Stanford University economist Thomas Sowell...
and some interesting quotes:
In the extended links and resources you provided, I could not find a single instance of substantial counter-argument or alternative narrative to explain the under-representation of black individuals in academia or their over-representation in the criminal justice system. The explanation provided in your documentation, to the near exclusion of all others, is univariate: the problems of the black community are caused by whites, or, when whites are not physically present, by the infiltration of white supremacy and white systemic racism into American brains, souls, and institutions.
and more:
The claim that the difficulties that the black community faces are entirely causally explained by exogenous factors in the form of white systemic racism, white supremacy, and other forms of white discrimination remains a problematic hypothesis that should be vigorously challenged by historians. Instead, it is being treated as an axiomatic and actionable truth without serious consideration of its profound flaws, or its worrying implication of total black impotence. This hypothesis is transforming our institution and our culture, without any space for dissent outside of a tightly policed, narrow discourse.
A counternarrative exists. If you have time, please consider examining some of the documents I attach at the end of this email. Overwhelmingly, the reasoning provided by BLM and allies is either primarily anecdotal (as in the case with the bulk of Ta-Nehisi Coates' undeniably moving article) or it is transparently motivated. As an example of the latter problem, consider the proportion of black incarcerated Americans. This proportion is often used to characterize the criminal justice system as anti-black. However, if we use the precise same methodology, we would have to conclude that the criminal justice system is even more anti-male than it is anti-black.
and of course:
I personally don't dare speak out against the BLM narrative, and with this barrage of alleged unity being mass-produced by the administration, tenured professoriat, the UC administration, corporate America, and the media, the punishment for dissent is a clear danger at a time of widespread economic vulnerability. I am certain that if my name were attached to this email, I would lose my job and all future jobs, even though I believe in and can justify every word I type...
It shouldn't affect the strength of my argument above, but for the record, I write as a person of color...
https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/uc-berkeley-history-professors-open-letter-against-blm-police-brutality-and-cultural-orthodoxy/
(https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/uc-berkeley-history-professors-open-letter-against-blm-police-brutality-and-cultural-orthodoxy/)
Hilarious and ironic response from UC Berckly in a tweet:
An anonymous letter has been circulating, purportedly written by a @UCBHistory professor. We have no evidence that this letter was written by a History faculty member. We condemn this letter: it goes against our values as a department and our commitment to equity and inclusion.
I recently lost a friend here in Japan by expressing disagreement with BLM. A Japanese friend! Maybe it can be salvaged. I politely disagreed and I got load of condescension and rather personal condemnation.
I'll never vote republican but I've lost patience with the left. They can be so condescending and arrogant and closed-minded. These days, social media mobs run the show. Whoever you are out there, be warned!!! They will eventually turn on you too.
Quote from: Dowder on July 16, 2020, 07:20:41 PM
Told ya this was coming:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/that-sound-youre-hearing-is-classical-musics-long-overdue-reckoning-with-racism/2020/07/15/1b883e76-c49c-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/that-sound-youre-hearing-is-classical-musics-long-overdue-reckoning-with-racism/2020/07/15/1b883e76-c49c-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html)
Yawn.
Here's a better find:
https://twitter.com/titaniamcgrath?lang=en
Scroll down. It's a parody account with screenshots of articles and such claiming or questioning racism in 80 different things. Classical music is already on the list. (some of them i don't think actually have that intent but you can get at least get the idea)
This sort of thing is nothing new with other genres, like with metal you'll find plenty of articles saying metal is apparently "misogynistic" or whatever. The point of extreme metal is to be as offensive and messed up as possible, and to have no limits at all, equal opportunity brutality, etc. so why even isolate one thing like that? Previously only the church isolated the anti-Christian lyrics for criticism. This sort of puritanism on one specific thing is why this ideology feels like a religion to me.
Quote from: greg on July 16, 2020, 08:50:11 PM
Yawn.
Here's a better find:
https://twitter.com/titaniamcgrath?lang=en
Scroll down. It's a parody account with screenshots of articles and such claiming or questioning racism in 80 different things. Classical music is already on the list. (some of them i don't think actually have that intent but you can get at least get the idea)
This sort of thing is nothing new with other genres, like with metal you'll find plenty of articles saying metal is apparently "misogynistic" or whatever. The point of extreme metal is to be as offensive and messed up as possible, and to have no limits at all, equal opportunity brutality, etc. so why even isolate one thing like that? Previously only the church isolated the anti-Christian lyrics for criticism. This sort of puritanism on one specific thing is why this ideology feels like a religion to me.
"Is antiracism our new religion?"
https://www.youtube.com/v/hGJbrLs_8_0
Quote from: Dowder on July 16, 2020, 07:20:41 PM
Told ya this was coming:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/that-sound-youre-hearing-is-classical-musics-long-overdue-reckoning-with-racism/2020/07/15/1b883e76-c49c-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/that-sound-youre-hearing-is-classical-musics-long-overdue-reckoning-with-racism/2020/07/15/1b883e76-c49c-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html)
Of course it's wrong to exclude talented performers. As far as percentages of musicians go though it might need some research into the ethnicity of classical music listeners and the numbers of children that enjoy it to the extent of wanting to take it up as a career.
Quote from: milk on July 16, 2020, 09:01:25 PM
"Is antiracism our new religion?"
https://www.youtube.com/v/hGJbrLs_8_0
Yeah, basically what he said.
I think of it as a timeline:
Less religion than ever->people's sense of meaning and connection gone->get zealous with something most people already support->show people how righteous you are to get approval, belonging, and meaning->silence questions about your aggression by namecalling
There is not "less religion than ever".
That's just a spitball thrown up by the Right.
Quote from: Herman on July 17, 2020, 12:43:12 AM
There is not "less religion than ever".
That's just a spitball thrown up by the Right.
Some statistics can be helpful:
Quote from: Christo on July 17, 2020, 03:40:55 AM
Some statistics can be helpful:
Very helpful thank you. Personally I'm looking to science for a sense of meaning and connection to the Universe which is perhaps making me less inclined to join in the culture war.
Quote from: Dowder on July 16, 2020, 07:20:41 PM
Told ya this was coming:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/that-sound-youre-hearing-is-classical-musics-long-overdue-reckoning-with-racism/2020/07/15/1b883e76-c49c-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/that-sound-youre-hearing-is-classical-musics-long-overdue-reckoning-with-racism/2020/07/15/1b883e76-c49c-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html)
Classical music is super-white. No question about it.
Quote from: Herman on July 17, 2020, 12:43:12 AM
There is not "less religion than ever".
That's just a spitball thrown up by the Right.
More GMG factlessness. Let's see what other sources say. (Perhaps they are all part of the famous vast right wing conspiracy.) Perhaps Europe is as religious as ever. Who knows? Who cares?
Pew: In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace (https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/)
Gallup: U.S. Church Membership Down Sharply in Past Two Decades (https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx)
fivethirtyeight: Millennials Are Leaving Religion And Not Coming Back (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/millennials-are-leaving-religion-and-not-coming-back/)
The Atlantic: Three Decades Ago, America Lost Its Religion. Why? (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/atheism-fastest-growing-religion-us/598843/)
Fast Company (for a business perspective): The U.S. is less religious now. Are we richer for it? (https://www.fastcompany.com/90350554/the-u-s-is-less-religious-now-are-we-richer-for-it)
Trump pimps beans and wants to hump your leg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sD888UnegM
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 17, 2020, 03:59:55 AM
Very helpful thank you. Personally I'm looking to science for a sense of meaning and connection to the Universe which is perhaps making me less inclined to join in the culture war.
heck, Dowder's only here for the culture war.
Quote from: Christo on July 17, 2020, 03:40:55 AM
Some statistics can be helpful:
Exactly, looks like no dearth of religion, from this Senator's standpoint. IMO The Evangelicals' lashing themselves to the most blatantly immoral President in history is thinning the ranks of Christianity much more than any supposed "anti-religion campaign."
Quote from: greg on July 16, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
Yes, thank you! I wanted to see if anyone would say what it is: Majority Privilege.
I've seen a lot of examples provided in the past and they confuse the two: White and Majority. There is a difference.
Of course, one might be able to argue that some type of white privilege exists, and if I thought about it surely I could think of some example... back in the day it was clear cut, no question, but nowadays many other factors trump that so much that it's much less of a point (I suppose the interactions between police officers could be the best, most obvious ones maybe to make the whole privilege case).
Well it just isn't race specific, that's for sure.
YES.
This nonsense is only growing like a tumor.
But why would the National Museum of African American History and Culture publish white supremacy sounding stuff on their website? Seems odds would point it to being a liberal organization, maybe?
The guess I've heard is that it's just Marxist ideology.
One guess I've had is that it's the next evolution of SJW ideology, gone so far anti-racist that it gets back to being racist.
Tbh I don't know what to think...
Everyone has a SJW perspective. Everyone signals virtue, and some go so far as practicing it. A particularly far out version comes from people who are against social justice virtues being signaled!
Quote from: Herman on July 17, 2020, 12:43:12 AM
There is not "less religion than ever".
That's just a spitball thrown up by the Right.
No, it's both fact and spitball.
More GMG factlessness. Life is opinion and that's a fact.
Call Grows for Seattle Mayor to Resign Over Floyd Protests, CHOP Response (https://www.newsweek.com/call-grows-seattle-mayor-resign-over-floyd-protests-chop-response-1518503?utm_source=pushnami&utm_medium=Push_Notifications&utm_campaign=automatic&UTM=1594992609653)
Dems are out for Dem blood. I approve!
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2020, 04:48:53 AM
More GMG factlessness. Let's see what other sources say. (Perhaps they are all part of the famous vast right wing conspiracy.) Perhaps Europe is as religious as ever. Who knows? Who cares?
Pew: In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace (https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/)
Gallup: U.S. Church Membership Down Sharply in Past Two Decades (https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx)
fivethirtyeight: Millennials Are Leaving Religion And Not Coming Back (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/millennials-are-leaving-religion-and-not-coming-back/)
The Atlantic: Three Decades Ago, America Lost Its Religion. Why? (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/atheism-fastest-growing-religion-us/598843/)
Fast Company (for a business perspective): The U.S. is less religious now. Are we richer for it? (https://www.fastcompany.com/90350554/the-u-s-is-less-religious-now-are-we-richer-for-it)
I thought it was common knowledge that religion is on the decline in the US. Good to see stats confirming that.
China's (and Germany's) culpability in global income inequality is underappreciated (or more correctly, the culpability of Chinese and German elites, in conjunction with our own)
QuoteWhat that means is that when we think of trade conflicts, the default presumption of many of us is that we think about them as being led by governments of countries against other countries. It's about national interests, it's about incompatible national characters or geopolitics. Our thesis is that's not right. If you want to understand what's going on with trade conflicts and the global economy, you have to understand class conflicts within these countries.
For example, Chinese government policies have been bad for U.S. workers, but they've been bad precisely because they've also been bad for workers in China. So, in other words, instead of thinking about this as China versus the U.S., it's much more helpful to think about it as a large group of people in China versus a small group of people in China who are running the government and businesses' elites. And in many ways, similar conflicts exist in the United States. So, you have complementarities of interests between the workers in the U.S. and China and between elites in the U.S. and China against many of the other people in their own country. That's really the thesis of the book.
https://bcghendersoninstitute.com/book-interview-trade-wars-are-class-wars-with-matthew-c-klein-d1aba0b9dced (https://bcghendersoninstitute.com/book-interview-trade-wars-are-class-wars-with-matthew-c-klein-d1aba0b9dced)
Quote from: greg on July 17, 2020, 07:49:21 AM
I thought it was common knowledge that religion is on the decline in the US. Good to see stats confirming that.
It is common knowledge. However the dynamics of religious affiliation still resemble an old pattern where religions will age into a form of liberal universalism and more fierce versions come along. What's different is that the newer churches aren't taking up all the slack as many people no longer see it necessary to affirm what they don't quite manage to believe.
Some of the slack is taken up by forms of gauzy spirituality which don't offer much in the way of
anything to believe.
Quote from: drogulus on July 17, 2020, 08:52:44 AM
It is common knowledge. However the dynamics of religious affiliation still resemble an old pattern where religions will age into a form of liberal universalism and more fierce versions come along. What's different is that the newer churches aren't taking up all the slack as many people no longer see it necessary to affirm what they don't quite manage to believe.
Some of the slack is taken up by forms of gauzy spirituality which don't offer much in the way of anything to believe.
"That which I choose to call God."
Quote from: drogulus on July 17, 2020, 06:56:37 AM
Everyone has a SJW perspective. Everyone signals virtue, and some go so far as practicing it. A particularly far out version comes from people who are against social justice virtues being signaled!
No, it's both fact and spitball.
More GMG factlessness.
Life is opinion and that's a fact.
I missed the acronym: what in the world is "SJW"?
Quote from: greg on July 17, 2020, 07:49:21 AMI thought it was common knowledge that religion is on the decline in the US.
It is common knowledge everywhere but in the Netherlands, it seems.
I believe it stands for 'Social Justice Warrior'.
The perspective can still be more or less personal, mind you.
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
It is common knowledge everywhere but in the Netherlands, it seems.
Lol.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 17, 2020, 10:53:05 AM
I missed the acronym: what in the world is "SJW"?
Social Justice Warrior. Surely you would have heard of the term by now? ???
There is a good side to SJW, it comes from the best place possible. But the aggression is the difference which makes it bad.
The good side is antiracism, antisexism, etc. It's okay to virtue signal sometimes.
The bad side is taking something someone said 20 years ago out of context and cancelling someone's career over it. Or twisting something that wasn't meant with ill intent to mean something offensive in order to gain power or harm the other person. That's the difference between being cool and being SJW.
Quote from: greg on July 17, 2020, 11:05:29 AMSocial Justice Warrior. Surely you would have heard of the term by now? ???
GMG is behind the times in many things.
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/dffdf93/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Fba%2Fc1%2F0517cefb4c5a8cec2622880e5f29%2Fwuc200715-1160.jpg)
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
It is common knowledge everywhere but in the Netherlands, it seems.
The international - global - trend is very much the opposite (the US are a backwater). ;D
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2020, 04:48:53 AM
Classical music is super-white. No question about it.
Are people of Chinese, Japanese and South Korean descent considered "white"?
Seriously asking. That article must be assuming they are, but I suspect that if I asked a white supremacist they'd say no.
Quote from: Christo on July 17, 2020, 02:01:03 PM
The international - global - trend is very much the opposite (the US are a backwater). ;D
So is Europe:
'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe
Figures show a majority of young adults in 12 countries have no faith, with Czechs least religious (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/21/christianity-non-christian-europe-young-people-survey-religion)
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 17, 2020, 10:58:46 AM
I believe it stands for 'Social Justice Warrior'.
The perspective can still be more or less personal, mind you.
Thanks, from a Social Justice Peacenik.
Quote from: Dowder on July 17, 2020, 12:48:19 PM
Herm thinks all Republicans are fundamentalist Christians.
Another everyone who is a liberal or conservative is a whatever. The fact is most fundamentalists are Republicans and they dominate the party. So even if a Republican is not a fundamentalist they still support much of their agenda.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 17, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
Thanks, from a Social Justice Peacenik.
I think you're "just resting". I'm reminded of how people have been "premature anti-fascists" in earlier eras. Some people jump the gun a little, or so it seems from outside. There is a point where people won't stand for more, and that's happened with the large protests that have drawn together many people who don't usually agree on that much. Some people have a high threshold, but movements for change can be quite effective long before the laggards decide it's time to sign up.
I don't think everyone is going to be antiracist. I prefer people to change behavior than to confess supposed sins. I don't care what they think. As far as I'm concerned it's as likely that decent thought will follow decent behavior as the other way. It's a matter of giving up bad habits. You give them up, and then they look ugly to you.
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg battling cancer again (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/17/supreme-court-justice-ruth-bader-ginsberg-says-her-cancer-has-recurred/5459277002/)
The RBG deathwatch begins. Can she make it until January 20th . . .
Anyone here from Portland with a local perspective on whats happening there right now?
Oregon Gov. Kate Brown Says President Trump Is Invading Portland as an Election Stunt
Her comments come in the same hour that acting Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf landed in Portland.ALL (https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/07/16/oregon-gov-kate-brown-says-president-trump-is-invading-portland-as-an-election-stunt/)
"As top federal law enforcement officials arrived in Oregon on Thursday, Gov. Kate Brown accused President Donald Trump of deploying federal officers to Portland to crack down on protesters as a way to boost his flailing reelection prospects.
In an uncharacteristically harsh statement, Brown responded to Trump's deployment of federal officers to quell Portland's protests against police violence. Those officers sent one demonstrator to the hospital July 11 with a munition to the face.
"This political theater from President Trump has nothing to do with public safety," Brown said. "The president is failing to lead this nation. Now he is deploying federal officers to patrol the streets of Portland in a blatant abuse of power by the federal government."
Her comments come in the same hour that acting Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf landed in Portland, according to KOIN News 6. This morning, Wolf refused a request from Mayor Ted Wheeler to withdraw his officers from Portland.
"The city of Portland has been under siege for 47 straight days by a violent mob while local political leaders refuse to restore order to protect their city," Wolf said. "This siege can end if state and local officials decide to take appropriate action instead of refusing to enforce the law. DHS will not abdicate its solemn duty to protect federal facilities and those within them."
Brown said she spoke to Wolf and told him to remove officers from Portland streets.
"I told acting Secretary Wolf that the federal government should remove all federal officers from our streets," Brown said. "His response showed me he is on a mission to provoke confrontation for political purposes. He is putting both Oregonians and local law enforcement officers in harm's way. This, coming from the same president who used tear gas to clear out peaceful protesters in Washington, D.C., to engineer a photo opportunity."
Brown accused the president of provoking violence in order to appear tough on crime to suburban voters. "Trump is looking for a confrontation in Oregon in the hopes of winning political points in Ohio or Iowa," she said.
That appears to be a correct assessment: The federal crackdown on Portland is getting approving airplay on Fox News and other conservative media, and Trump has pledged to increase federal action if liberal cities don't make arrests of protesters who damage property. Meanwhile, Trump trails Joe Biden by 10 percentage points in reelection polls.
U.S. Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) was equally scathing today.
"A peaceful protester in Portland was shot in the head by one of Donald Trump's secret police," Wyden wrote on Twitter. "Now Trump and Chad Wolf are weaponizing the DHS as their own occupying army to provoke violence on the streets of my hometown because they think it plays well with right-wing media."[...]
Here's a local news report
https://www.kptv.com/news/walking-tour-what-portland-looks-like-now-after-protests/article_5f4881d8-c894-11ea-84d1-9ba7f0652166.amp.html
The Federal DA for that area said today he's looking into the legality of the arrests. People are interpreting that as meaning he's agreeing with the mayor.
Quote from: Dowder on July 17, 2020, 08:48:57 PM
Thanks to immigration and the Christ hating secular culture they've embraced, Islam will be the new religion of Europe.
Secular culture doesn't mean hating Christ, just that people don't have to talk and act as if they believed in a particular religion.
Quote from: Christo on July 17, 2020, 02:01:03 PM
The international - global - trend is very much the opposite (the US are a backwater). ;D
Gonna take a guess... developing nations are more religious and have a higher birth rate, so if it's a global thing that's probably why.
Gonna say maybe countries like Nigeria might be a factor in it, as far as Christianity would go...
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2020, 11:06:59 AM
GMG is behind the times in many things.
Well, it is classical music forum...
Also seems the majority of SJW's/activitists seem to be 20's-30's, and a lot people here tend to be older, so that could be one factor.
Speaking of religion, there's some stories about statue vandalism of Mary and Jesus (i think in Miami). Leftists are the first suspect considering what's been happening recently. But we don't know yet.
Quote from: Dowder on July 17, 2020, 08:48:57 PM
Thanks to immigration and the Christ hating secular culture they've embraced, Islam will be the new religion of Europe.
Get ready for another Dark Ages, this time with a higher percentage of incest, female mutilation, anti-intellectualism, anti-science and anti-democracy courtesy of Shariah Law.
But diversity!
You ignorant bigot.
Quote from: Dowder on July 17, 2020, 08:48:57 PM
Thanks to immigration and the Christ hating secular culture they've embraced, Islam will be the new religion of Europe.
Get ready for another Dark Ages, this time with a higher percentage of incest, female mutilation, anti-intellectualism, anti-science and anti-democracy courtesy of Shariah Law.
Incest, anti-intellectualism, anti-science, anti-democracy? Sounds like a large chunk of the US. Only we have "Biblical Law", instead of Shariah, but they are very similar.
This line sounds suspiciously like the "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory.
https://www.youtube.com/v/VUbxVfSqtt8
(I know I said I was out of here, but I can't help peeking now and then.)
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2020, 02:27:25 PM
So is Europe:
'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe
Figures show a majority of young adults in 12 countries have no faith, with Czechs least religious (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/21/christianity-non-christian-europe-young-people-survey-religion)
You're wrong again:
Quote from: Christo on July 18, 2020, 12:04:24 AM
You're wrong again:
I guess you are not a demographer.
Quote from: Todd on July 18, 2020, 04:43:21 AM
I guess you are not a demographer.
I guess you cannot read.
Quote from: greg on July 17, 2020, 09:51:45 PMGonna take a guess... developing nations are more religious and have a higher birth rate, so if it's a global thing that's probably why.
Correct. Again, this is well known everywhere except in the Netherlands.
Quote from: Dowder on July 17, 2020, 08:48:57 PM
Thanks to immigration and the Christ hating secular culture they've embraced, Islam will be the new religion of Europe.
Get ready for another Dark Ages, this time with a higher percentage of incest, female mutilation, anti-intellectualism, anti-science and anti-democracy courtesy of Shariah Law.
But diversity!
Tell us all about the "war on Christmas" again, gramps!
Quote from: Todd on July 18, 2020, 04:43:21 AM
I guess you are not a demographer.
A demographer would know that Christianity is on the rise in all major European cities; as it is in New York (echoing the global trend everywhere). :)
Quote from: Christo on July 18, 2020, 05:14:40 AM
A demographer would know that Christianity is on the rise in all major European cities; as it is in New York (echoing the global trend everywhere). :)
Apparently, the word "demographer" is a trigger for some. Who knew?
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 05:38:28 AM
Or Latin America
Everyone around the world has a way to go before they match Europe in that regard:
(https://live.mrf.io/statics/i/ps/cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/charles-spain.jpg)
Europeans don't engage in incest anymore. (Wink, wink.)
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 05:50:26 AM
Nope, it doesn't have to be about hating Christ but Christianity is the one religion that everyone can crap on without consequences. Perhaps it just the legacy of being the religion having to face the critique and rejection from the enlightenment? I dunno, seems every other religion gets a free pass while Christianity is held up to scorn.
It's possibly down to the number of children who people attempted to indoctrinate into Christianity but failed. Sunday School certainly sent me to the local library to look for answers in the science section.
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 05:50:26 AM
Nope, it doesn't have to be about hating Christ but Christianity is the one religion that everyone can crap on without consequences. Perhaps it just the legacy of being the religion having to face the critique and rejection from the enlightenment? I dunno, seems every other religion gets a free pass while Christianity is held up to scorn.
Poor disadvantaged Christianity. If you looked in the mirror, you might consider that a lot of people who proudly flout the "Christian" brand are giving Christianity a bad name. Your bigotry and white supremacy are prime examples.
Have you considered shutting your cake-hole and living the Gospel?
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 17, 2020, 09:33:12 PM
Secular culture doesn't mean hating Christ,
I've spent considerable time in the company of secular ultras and Christ hating isn't on the agenda. Some of us have an interest in the history of that era and trying to untangle the truth from myth and propaganda. I note that's what scholars of religion do, who probably don't bother hating what they study even if they don't actually believe the far out stuff.
Christ is a title given to a possibly historical person. I'm not a monarchist, but I can't say I hate kings.
First understand what are are trying to say, then if it's still worth saying, say it.
Hitchens said he was anti-religion, unusual for persons thought of as atheists, most of whom oppose practices and just disagree with beliefs. I tend to agree with Hitch that a god would be a threat to human existence and would obliterate religion if not everything.
I also agree with him that N. Korea has advantages over the "afterlife". At least the Kims leave you alone after you're dead.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Joe Biden, citing intelligence briefings, warns that Russia, China are engaged in election interference (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-biden-citing-intelligence-briefings-warns-that-russia-china-are-engaged-in-election-meddling/2020/07/17/3ce81580-c89a-11ea-a99f-3bbdffb1af38_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_bidenelection-1027pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Oh shit!
Three executions in four days at Terre Haute federal prison (https://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/crime/three-executions-in-four-days-at-terre-haute-federal-prison)
Whoo-wee, the BOP has been busy, busy, busy!
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 05:50:26 AM
Nope, it doesn't have to be about hating Christ but Christianity is the one religion that everyone can crap on without consequences.
Certainly true, at least in the US.
Could be due to simultaneously being the predominant religion, yet also being a fairly tolerant society overall.
Quote from: Todd on July 18, 2020, 07:20:18 AM
Joe Biden, citing intelligence briefings, warns that Russia, China are engaged in election interference (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-biden-citing-intelligence-briefings-warns-that-russia-china-are-engaged-in-election-meddling/2020/07/17/3ce81580-c89a-11ea-a99f-3bbdffb1af38_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_bidenelection-1027pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Oh shit!
But what if he wins?
"Oh wait, never mind, hehehe, I'm just getting old. Carry on." :)
Quote from: greg on July 18, 2020, 10:55:52 AM
Certainly true, at least in the US.
Could be due to simultaneously being the predominant religion, yet also being a fairly tolerant society overall.
Bongo! You got it right twice. We could trash Hindus, but for what? We don't have a Hindutva party in the US, but we do have a Christianist party. So it doesn't pay to waste ammo on small groups with little influence. As for Jews, they do have influence and are crapped on.
Quote from: greg on July 18, 2020, 10:55:52 AM
Certainly true, at least in the US.
Could be due to simultaneously being the predominant religion, yet also being a fairly tolerant society overall.
Noticeably less tolerant under the present administration, or hadn't you noticed?
The "Law & Order are for keeping those of inferior skin color and religion in line" rallies.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 18, 2020, 12:10:18 PM
Noticeably less tolerant under the present administration, or hadn't you noticed?
The "Law & Order are for keeping those of inferior skin color and religion in line" rallies.
And "Globalists" have to be kept in line, too, but gingerly so because they are allies until a certain person comes back to settle their hash for good.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 18, 2020, 12:10:18 PM
Noticeably less tolerant under the present administration, or hadn't you noticed?
Eh, I'd probably have noticed if I were addicted to CNN...
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 09:32:23 PM
Yeah, thanks for demonstrating the difference between Christianity and Islam. You can reject the former for an alternative and live while the latter you risk an honor killing or a good ol' beheading for being an apostate.
You ignorant bigot.
There are something like three and a half million Muslims living in the US. How many honor killings and beheadings have you heard about, you ignorant bigot?
I'm not defending it. I'm saying its not common and its in no way an accepted part of Muslim life any more than domestic violence and family murder in "Christian" life, though there's no shortage of cases of that. Only an ignorant bigot would believe it was.
Any lamentable occasional honor killings in the US are vastly dwarfed by shootings by white christians who are scared their world is under siege.
Quote from: Herman on July 18, 2020, 11:23:20 PM
Any lamentable occasional honor killings in the US are vastly dwarfed by shootings by white christians who are scared their world is under siege.
As long as you realize these ''christians'' (e.g. Southern Baptists and the like) are rather dualists - evil is only found in the other - than christians. The US are a unique breeding ground for dualism, the very opposite of monotheism. ::)
Perhaps, but that was not the point.
Right-wingers cherish every single killing perpetrated by muslims on USA soil (or the EU) as proof of their replacement fantasies, but ignore the vast number of killings done by people who should be counted as white christians.
Quote from: Herman on July 19, 2020, 01:40:36 AM
Right-wingers cherish every single killing perpetrated by muslims on USA soil (or the EU) as proof of their replacement fantasies, but ignore the vast number of killings done by people who should be counted as white christians.
Which is exactly the point I was making. #dualism ;D
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 09:32:23 PM
Yeah, thanks for demonstrating the difference between Christianity and Islam. You can reject the former for an alternative and live while the latter you risk an honor killing or a good ol' beheading for being an apostate.
Yes, I believe apostasy is illegal in some countries and one could be killed for it as once was in Europe. Perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut and just gone along with it instead of annoying people anyway :-[.
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 09:32:23 PM
I don%u2019t see how science gives answers to spiritual problems. Apples and oranges, Stevie.
Agreed, it was things like the six day creation that didn't give me enough convincing detail. The Apollo Moon landings were on at the time. If they'd said God had set up the fundamental rules of physics and let the Universe develop to see what it would produce, possibly with a little tinkering here and there to stop it going too badly wrong, I might have believed it.
US has 'lost its mind, morals and credibility', China's foreign minister tells Russian counterpart (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3093762/us-has-lost-its-mind-morals-and-credibility-chinas-foreign)
Yep, he's correct. The only proper global response is to completely dismantle the existing international order. Morally and intellectually superior Europeans should be in the vanguard of this effort. No more lollygagging.
Bret Weinstein and Matt Taibbi: Corruption and its Consequences
"You don't think it's serious until it comes for you and then it's too late..."
https://www.youtube.com/v/xojSWHrar9A
Marco Rubio, Dan Sullivan pay tribute to John Lewis using the photo of a different black congressman (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/marco-rubio-tweets-a-tribute-to-john-lewis-using-the-photo-of-a-different-black-congressman/2020/07/18/381d9f8a-c92f-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html)
They must have been hanging out with Dutch intellectuals.
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 09:32:23 PM
Yeah, thanks for demonstrating the difference between Christianity and Islam. You can reject the former for an alternative and live while the latter you risk an honor killing or a good ol' beheading for being an apostate.
That's not an advantage of Christianity over Islam, it's an advantage of a secular democracy, where people of all sorts of beliefs and none in particular play nice.
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 09:43:08 PM
America has a Christian heritage, not a Hindu one. Let India celebrate theirs and we'll honor ours. No reason to trash either.
So why are you trashing Muslims?
People are free to celebrate and trash. It's the same freedom.
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 09:43:08 PM
You can't critique their influence without being called an anti-semite.
There is no Constitutional protection against being called things, Mr. Snowflake. Besides, you can always attack "globalists".
Quote from: Dowder on July 18, 2020, 09:32:23 PM
Yeah, thanks for demonstrating the difference between Christianity and Islam.
You're busy wailing about how the sky is supposedly falling on Christianity.
What you aren't doing is demonstrating that Christianity means a damn to you.
You're living fear, and have no idea who said, "perfect love casts out fear."
QuoteChristianity means a damn
Shirley, it means more than that.
I disagree about spiritual problems being unaddressed by science. For the most part I think defining problems as spiritual is an attempt to locate them beyond fact, an odd choice if you think they are serious. I'm with Quine on this one. He says all questions are scientific or they aren't questions, so it would be impossible to reject some of them because they are deemed religious.
That's not to say science has found satisfactory answers to spiritual problems, merely that satisfactory answers can't help being scientific if we come up with them. It's a matter of definition, in that there is no such thing as a nonscientific fact.
Quote from: drogulus on July 19, 2020, 06:26:53 AM
That's not to say science has found satisfactory answers to spiritual problems, merely that satisfactory answers can't help being scientific if we come up with them. It's a matter of definition, in that there is no such thing as a nonscientific fact.
There are subjective, non-repeatable things that can't be tested by science, whether to regard them as facts is a matter of personal responsibility.
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 19, 2020, 06:50:03 AM
There are subjective, non-repeatable things that can't be tested by science, whether to regard them as facts is a matter of personal responsibility.
If you regard them as facts you have placed your bet on science having the ability to form judgments about subjective experience, which I applaud. I often wonder about what kind of facts explain my experience. I do think there are facts about subjectivity (like for example believing we have it), but they are hard to interpret.
As long as you exclude the Humanities from your definition of 'science', you'll never find the clue, are you?
Quote from: Christo on July 19, 2020, 07:21:02 AM
As long as you exclude the Humanities from your definition of 'science', you'll never find the clue, are you?
Can someone translate this to English?
Quote from: Todd on July 19, 2020, 05:37:08 AM
Marco Rubio, Dan Sullivan pay tribute to John Lewis using the photo of a different black congressman (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/marco-rubio-tweets-a-tribute-to-john-lewis-using-the-photo-of-a-different-black-congressman/2020/07/18/381d9f8a-c92f-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html)
They must have been hanging out with Dutch intellectuals.
The whole idea of Marco Rubio hanging out with intellectuals of any stripe is so OTT one can scarcely imagine it. Neither of us is Dutch, but we both know that Rubio can't tell one black man from another.
Anyway, on another topic, what's the real story on DHS hauling protesters off the streets there? I figure if anyone knows, it's the Ole Toddster...
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2020, 07:45:53 AMAnyway, on another topic, what's the real story on DHS hauling protesters off the streets there?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote from: Todd on July 19, 2020, 07:47:16 AM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So it's not the talk of the local media? Seems like it would be. Should be. I doubt we've heard the last of it. Less than 6 months to go....
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2020, 08:05:28 AMSo it's not the talk of the local media?
Stuff happens. Politicians say stuff. Reporters report stuff. Rinse and repeat. Every day.
One neat thing happened. The feds shot some dude in the noggin with a less than lethal round. He crumpled like in a target in a Splinter Cell game. I have concluded that Ubisoft relied on consultants from the French military during game design.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2020, 07:45:53 AM
Anyway, on another topic, what's the real story on DHS hauling protesters off the streets there? I figure if anyone knows, it's the Ole Toddster...
8)
Heh...... good one.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Quote from: Todd on July 19, 2020, 08:08:22 AM
Stuff happens. Politicians say stuff. Reporters report stuff. Rinse and repeat. Every day.
One neat thing happened. The feds shot some dude in the noggin with a less than lethal round. He crumpled like in a target in a Splinter Cell game. I have concluded that Ubisoft relied on consultants from the French military during game design.
Always important to have some comic relief. I'm more curious about jurisdictional issues; if no one called in the Feds, what was their basis for getting involved?
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2020, 08:05:28 AM
So it's not the talk of the local media? Seems like it would be. Should be. I doubt we've heard the last of it. Less than 6 months to go....
8)
Huggy Bear's rooting for the secret police ....
Quote from: drogulus on July 19, 2020, 06:26:53 AM
Shirley, it means more than that.
I disagree about spiritual problems being unaddressed by science. For the most part I think defining problems as spiritual is an attempt to locate them beyond fact, an odd choice if you think they are serious. I'm with Quine on this one. He says all questions are scientific or they aren't questions, so it would be impossible to reject some of them because they are deemed religious.
That's not to say science has found satisfactory answers to spiritual problems, merely that satisfactory answers can't help being scientific if we come up with them. It's a matter of definition, in that there is no such thing as a nonscientific fact.
"Spiritual problems," a slippery and problematic notion in any case, are generally addressed by philosophy, which is not a scientific field. To the extent they are answered, it is through logic, not fact.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2020, 08:28:07 AM
Always important to have some comic relief. I'm more curious about jurisdictional issues; if no one called in the Feds, what was their basis for getting involved?
8)
Trump decided Federal buildings were under attack by violent anarchists.
Reality: a lot of new graffiti in Portland, most of it on nonFederal property.
So if your downtown has a lot of graffiti be prepared.
Quote from: Christo on July 19, 2020, 07:21:02 AM
As long as you exclude the Humanities from your definition of 'science', you'll never find the clue, are you?
Do the humanities follow the scientific method?
Quote from: milk on July 19, 2020, 05:16:50 AM
Bret Weinstein and Matt Taibbi: Corruption and its Consequences
"You don't think it's serious until it comes for you and then it's too late..."
Didn't watch the video, but just commenting that I really like his analogy with the social justice movement being like part of a headhunters tribe.
The tribes valuing power/fearlessness, so bringing them the head of an outsider increases their social standing. Likewise, in the fake social justice movement, the cult values righteousness, so getting an outsider cancelled gets them likes on Twitter and other such recognition (or whatever Twitter uses, i don't use Twitter). (i think this is serotonin-boosting)
In any case, the outsider doesn't know what's coming for them, though fortunately people are really starting to get aware of this more as time passes.
Hmmm ... secret police as a political weapon, whom might that resemble?...
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2020, 08:28:07 AM
Always important to have some comic relief. I'm more curious about jurisdictional issues; if no one called in the Feds, what was their basis for getting involved?
8)
Federals can lawfully act in matters of unholding the law and protecting citizens rights over the objections of state and local government. If they are breaking the law and violating rights it's no protection to say they have a right to be there. Criminals often have the right to be where they are.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 19, 2020, 08:40:25 AM
"Spiritual problems," a slippery and problematic notion in any case, are generally addressed by philosophy, which is not a scientific field. To the extent they are answered, it is through logic, not fact.
Scientific fields are philosophy that got promoted/demoted when it arrived at facts. It's philosophy with enough fact in it to be something else, too. It's still philosophy but can be practiced both by scientists who see themselves as philosophers (Einstein) and those who don't (Feynman). The virtue of Quine is he gets the implicit continuity of knowledge disciplines, one of the great logicians who knew the limits of his craft. He writes well, too.
Quote from: drogulus on July 19, 2020, 09:24:38 AM
Federals can lawfully act in matters of unholding the law and protecting citizens rights over the objections of state and local government. If they are breaking the law and violating rights it's no protection to say they have a right to be there. Criminals often have the right to be where they are.
We know you meant "upholding," but "unholding" is an apt neologism, here.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2020, 09:30:25 AM
We know you meant "upholding," but "unholding" is an apt neologism, here.
I have the best wards.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2020, 09:22:12 AM
Hmmm ... secret police as a political weapon, whom might that resemble?...
Trump's trying to convince voters that Super Creepy Joe is a threat to democracy.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2020, 08:28:07 AMI'm more curious about jurisdictional issues; if no one called in the Feds, what was their basis for getting involved?
Non-American experts on the board should be consulted.
Quote from: greg on July 19, 2020, 09:06:41 AM
Do the humanities follow the scientific method?
I don't think there is a scientific method in the sense you mean.
Quote from: drogulus on July 19, 2020, 09:48:54 AM
I don't think there is a scientific method in the sense you mean.
Ah, so this mean "no." ;)
Quote from: greg on July 19, 2020, 09:06:41 AM
Do the humanities follow the scientific method?
Of course they do, with the proviso that there's no such thing as "the" scientific method (there are more than one).
The Lt. Governor of Texas is on record advocating people who are not him risk death for the common good. He wanted a Repub convention to take place he wisely chose not to attend, so he's serious. He doesn't jest about important life or death decisions. If it isn't necessary for him to die, why should he? He has people for that.
Quote from: greg on July 19, 2020, 10:13:17 AM
Ah, so this mean "no." ;)
Oh no, the answer is clearly yes. I was gagging at the notion of following scientific method as though it derived from a doctrine. If I may refer to philosophy of science, my position is that propositions are judged by the consequences of their acceptance, which comes down to predictive power. Usually you'll draw on a familiar set of investigative tools, but there is no a priori judgment about being restricted to those. I can't imagine anyone working with knowledge being unaware that they use the same toolkit as science workers do, no matter how their own discipline is defined.
Quote from: drogulus on July 19, 2020, 10:48:39 AM
The Lt. Governor of Texas is on record advocating people who are not him risk death for the common good. He wanted a Repub convention to take place he wisely chose not to attend, so he's serious. He doesn't jest about important life or death decisions. If it isn't necessary for him to die, why should he? He has people for that.
Oh no, the answer is clearly yes. I was gagging at the notion of following scientific method as though it derived from a doctrine. If I may refer to philosophy of science, my position is that propositions are judged by the consequences of their acceptance, which comes down to predictive power. Usually you'll draw on a familiar set of investigative tools, but there is no a priori judgment about being restricted to those. I can't imagine anyone working with knowledge being unaware that they use the same toolkit as science workers do, no matter how their own discipline is defined.
This is a huge question that I doubt can be answered in any simple way. One thing you can do, is try to prove a methodology wrong, for example, "This plane will fly safely with human beings on board." I guess you have to prove a lot of things wrong leading up to that, and a high confidence can be generated?
Try to prove critical theory or intersectionality wrong. Where to start? Where to end? I'm beginning to believe some very basic and even crucial questions may not be allowed (at least as as much) by those in the humanities. Does demonizing and pulling back the police lead to more or less loss of life? It's an empirical question to be sure. But there maybe a deeper critical theory which calls into question the nefarious systems that would lead to someone asking this question. In that case, the question should be abandoned in favor of something else?
https://www.youtube.com/v/gzHE_SY334o
https://www.youtube.com/v/ekkN6YCblYg
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2020, 04:46:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/gzHE_SY334o
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2020, 04:46:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/gzHE_SY334o
A powerful ad. Imagine if/when another trump comes along. This time he/she is competent, effective and focused. Scary thought. In a way, but for Tump's incompetence, things could have been worse.
Will democrats deliver something meaningful to everyone? Something that includes everyone? This ad, for example, comes from a group of people who certainly love big wars and big money.
I guess I'm already thinking of trump gone. I simply can't conceive of more of him.
Anyway, here's a hilarious interview with Lincoln Project's Rick Wilson. Hilarious!
Rick Wilson squirms talking anti-Trump Super-PAC, The Lincoln Project
https://www.youtube.com/v/tNvuYPpX0C0&t=13s
Quote from: milk on July 19, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
This is a huge question that I doubt can be answered in any simple way. One thing you can do, is try to prove a methodology wrong, for example, "This plane will fly safely with human beings on board." I guess you have to prove a lot of things wrong leading up to that, and a high confidence can be generated?
Try to prove critical theory or intersectionality wrong. Where to start? Where to end? I'm beginning to believe some very basic and even crucial questions may not be allowed (at least as as much) by those in the humanities. Does demonizing and pulling back the police lead to more or less loss of life? It's an empirical question to be sure. But there maybe a deeper critical theory which calls into question the nefarious systems that would lead to someone asking this question. In that case, the question should be abandoned in favor of something else?
I don't consider what's allowed as a criterion. The humanities are full of people who take doctrinaire position of different kinds I would find unhelpful as part of a quest for knowledge, or teaching what such a quest consists in. Great teachers should help you learn how to think more than what to think. That's what makes them great. You should take comfort in the fact that students are not ideological clones of teachers of any kind. I would imagine a smart teacher would want to produce students smart enough to think the prof is kind of fucked up.
There's no "coversation" because you're speaking from a place of manifest ignorance.
I assume your "camel pee" coment comes from this Brietbart article?:
Iranian 'Prophetic Medicine' Leader: Camel Urine Cures Coronavirus (https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/04/20/iranian-prophetic-medicine-leader-camel-urine-cures-coronavirus/)
Did you read beyond the title? (Does reading make you sleepy?) Because in the second paragraph there's this:
"It was quickly ridiculed by Iranians, many of whom warned about the dangers of such treatment."
And that's in a Dowder-approved source.
If this were the later 19th century you'd be saying you have no problem with Catholics as long as they stay in their own country.
This is about double standards.
The 9/11 killers, in the mind of many Americans the ur-muslim terrorists, weren't Quran quoting pious muslims either.
They drank alcohol, went to night clubs and basically didn't give a fuck.
They were called muslims as an ethnic indication (which obviously doesn't make sense, but then none of this does).
So by that analogy it's perfectly rational to call Dylan Roof ('s that what he's called? the kid who shot a bunch a black folks in a church) a white christian terrorist.
Quote from: Herman on July 19, 2020, 10:34:38 PM
This is about double standards.
The 9/11 killers, in the mind of many Americans the ur-muslim terrorists, weren't Quran quoting pious muslims either.
They drank alcohol, went to night clubs and basically didn't give a fuck.
They were called muslims as an ethnic indication (which obviously doesn't make sense, but then none of this does).
So by that analogy it's perfectly rational to call Dylan Roof ('s that what he's called? the kid who shot a bunch a black folks in a church) a white christian terrorist.
what kind of baloney is this? You can say they don't represent true Islam, or whatever, but you can't get away with this nonsense. Ever heard of osama bin laden?
It's the kind of baloney of somebody not thinking your identical thoughts.
So either you should get angry or (cue usual suspects) sarcastic.
I'm trying to think what would make someone perform a suicide operation like 9/11 without the belief they'd go to martyr's heaven.
There were plenty of quasi-suicidal anarchist, nationalist or socialist operations in the late 19th and early 20th century. E.g. the shooting of Franz Ferdinand and his wife 106 years ago. There were also many school shootings or similarly suicidal amok killings in the US and Europe in the last decades.
Quote from: Dowder on July 19, 2020, 08:22:07 PM
Who exactly? Did they use the Bible or Church teachings to kill?
There is no point to responding to any of your questions. You rarely provide any documentation to support most of your pronouncements.
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 20, 2020, 03:02:14 AM
I'm trying to think what would make someone perform a suicide operation like 9/11 without the belief they'd go to martyr's heaven.
There is a lot of evidence mass shooters want to be part of a line of famous / notorious killers. It's on their youtubes and computer files.
You're just making things up to suit the "muslims kill people, white christians don't" story - against overwhelming evidence.
Some ~Christianity-influenced examples here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
Radical Islamic Terrorism is old news. China is the new bad guy. Well, along with Russia. Once again, GMG is behind the times.
Quote from: Herman on July 20, 2020, 02:49:10 AM
It's the kind of baloney of somebody not thinking your identical thoughts.
So either you should get angry or (cue usual suspects) sarcastic.
No, it's just baloney.
It's bizarre to have to spell out what everybody knows and what is still a pretty recent event in my mind. I guess you will say that these terrorists don't mean what they say they mean because you somehow got into their minds and separated out what they said from what they did.
"Although bin Laden initially denied any involvement, in 2004 he claimed responsibility for the attacks..."
"In 1996, bin Laden issued his first fatwā, calling for American soldiers to leave Saudi Arabia.[13]
"In a second fatwā in 1998, bin Laden outlined his objections to American foreign policy with respect to Israel...Bin Laden used Islamic texts to exhort Muslims to attack Americans until the stated grievances were reversed. Muslim legal scholars "have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries", according to bin Laden."
"Bin Laden orchestrated the attacks...In November 2001, U.S. forces recovered a videotape...In the video, bin Laden is seen talking to Khaled al-Harbi and admits foreknowledge of the attacks."
"The Hamburg cell in Germany included radical Islamists who eventually came to be key operatives in the 9/11 attacks..."
"Osama bin Laden's declaration of a holy war against the United States..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks
You'd better get on that wikipedia page.
Quote from: milk on July 20, 2020, 04:32:21 AMIt's bizarre to have to spell out what everybody knows and what is still a pretty recent event in my mind.
The event has been transmogrified and fictionalized to suit many purposes.
Thousands expected to walk off the job Monday to protest racial inequality (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-07-20/thousands-protest-racial-inequality-strike-for-black-lives)
Organized protests are growing. Oh noes!
Dock 'em a day's pay, or fire 'em. It will just exacerbate inequality.
Wait, sorry, this is a game changer.
Quote from: Dowder on July 19, 2020, 08:33:30 PM
If Christians weren't willing to play nice those "secular" democracies wouldn't have existed to begin with.
How did they learn to play nice after killing each other by the millions in the wars of religion and million of others in religious conquests.
We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual servitude. -A Pope playing nice.
So, when did niceness arrive, and how? For sure, churches now oppose slavery and extermination in a "We've always been at war with Eastasia" way.
One thing I'm fairly sure of is Christians didn't just stop killing each other and anyone else that was vulnerable out of a previously untapped reservoir of kindness.
https://conservativeus.com/hate-hoax-a-federal-courthouse-violently-targeted-by-antifa-blm-for-a-basketball-poster-that-was-mistaken-for-white-supremacist-symbol/
(https://conservativeus.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/hate-hoax-a-federal-courthouse-violently-targeted-by-antifa-blm-for-a-basketball-poster-that-750x445.jpg)
(https://cdn.nba.net/nba-drupal-prod/styles/landscape/s3/2017-12/steph-curry-12-30-17.jpg?itok=5eKkyGah)
(https://b.fssta.com/uploads/content/dam/fsdigital/RSN/Ohio/2014/10/09/100914-FSO-NBA-LeBron-3ptgoggles.jpg)
Sharing for Todd. He'll find the stupidity amusing.
BTW this is what it looks like when you have anger issues from a lack of meaning in your life and want to take it out on bad guys, but there aren't enough bad guys.
Eerily similar to some cops (apart from the availability of bad guys since that differs greatly from place to place).
Quote from: greg on July 20, 2020, 07:24:55 AMSharing for Todd. He'll find the stupidity amusing.
It's Stumptown. Stupid is its thing. For instance, here is one of the more effective recent protests in the city:
(https://www.oregonlive.com/resizer/FNd4YXsejt0i6TK8olNVSDhNHxg=/1280x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/UMYBKVQ67NCDHKEH77BGT2VQLM.JPG)
(A frontal shot would have made a more powerful statement.)
Quote from: Todd on July 20, 2020, 07:31:52 AM
(A frontal shot would have made a more powerful statement.)
Lol. Considering what Portland people are known to look like, I'm surprised seeing the front half didn't make the entire police force quit their jobs and leave the country that exact night.
Quote from: greg on July 20, 2020, 07:24:55 AM
https://conservativeus.com/hate-hoax-a-federal-courthouse-violently-targeted-by-antifa-blm-for-a-basketball-poster-that-was-mistaken-for-white-supremacist-symbol/
My adblock prevents me from looking at the site. Has anyone found out if those arrested were part of a group action? I note that even fascist groups counsel members against violence on a circumstantial basis. Crimes against property tend to be actions by privateer sympathizers. I'd like to hear from those arrested. The real story will be more interesting, because it always is.
This is from last month:
No Sign Of Antifa So Far In Justice Department Cases Brought Over Unrest (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/09/873278314/no-sign-of-antifa-so-far-in-justice-department-cases-brought-over-unrest)
U.S. Attorney General William Barr has repeatedly blamed anti-fascist activists for the violence that has erupted during demonstrations over George Floyd's death, but federal court records show no sign of so-called antifa links so far in cases brought by the Justice Department.
NPR has reviewed court documents of 51 individuals facing federal charges in connection with the unrest. As of Tuesday morning, none is alleged to have links to the antifa movement.
Of the cases brought so far, 20 involve allegations related to arson; 16 involve the illegal possession of a firearm, more often than not by a felon; another eight people face charges related to inciting a riot or civil disorder.
The single instance in which an extremist group is mentioned in court documents is a case against three Nevada men. Federal prosecutors allege the trio belong to the right-wing Boogaloo movement that wants to bring about a civil war. The men have been charged with plotting violence during Las Vegas protests. Now get this, y'all will like this:
In an interview Monday with Fox News, Barr said the lack of cases against alleged antifa activists so far does not mean they haven't been involved in the violence.
It's also rumored that there were white and black people involved, and they are the worst races on the planet. That's it, beyond a reasonable doubt! See me being Attorney General?
"And my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement. First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you."
The quote is attributed to different notables. It came from a labor organizer in the original form I quote. These days the monument thing looks iffy, and I'm not unhappy about it. If I can't have gods with bird heads or philosophers I lose interest.
You can pause your adblock for that specific site or page, just click on AdBlock and adjust the setting, it does the same thing for me.
Quote from: greg on July 20, 2020, 08:48:45 AM
You can pause your adblock for that specific site or page, just click on AdBlock and adjust the setting, it does the same thing for me.
I was just making an excuse to avoid epistemic pollution. Do you promise me it's worth it, like if there's actual antifa in it and not artificial antifa flavoring?
In a revelation of stunning import, I will get an "October Surprise" vaccination if offered. Anything that tilts the odds in my favor is worth doing. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: drogulus on July 20, 2020, 09:25:22 AM
I was just making an excuse to avoid epistemic pollution. Do you promise me it's worth it, like if there's actual antifa in it and not artificial antifa flavoring?
I'm reading that PNW Youth Liberation Front is antifascist but there aren't links between it and Antifa. So the headline is slightly incorrect.
It's got a few more amusing screenshots about the situation, like the Twitter response showing it's just an NBA poster.
There are Antifa groups out there, though, just learned of this one being the oldest one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa
Founded in 2007. Nearly a decade before Trump presidency. Didn't even know that...
I have stumbled on Facebook profiles of people claiming to be Antifa and wearing that type of clothing. There's plenty of videos on youtube of people trying to interview them. The barrier for entry is super low, that's why they appear nebulous.
Quote from: greg on July 20, 2020, 10:19:43 AMThere are Antifa groups out there, though, just learned of this one being the oldest one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa
Oregon is filled with daffy groups. The best are the various Dark Greens.
Rose City Antifa (https://www.rosecityantifa.org/)
I have to admit they choose their enemies wisely. I prefer the "sunlight is disinfectant" approach. Counter-demonstrations with some yelling and namecalling are OK.
Anti-fascist groups take inspiration from British activists who opposed the British Union of Fascists led by Oswald Moseley in the '30s. They were a diverse bunch.
There were debates within the anti-fascist movement over tactics. While many east end ex-servicemen participated in violence against fascists. Communist Party leader Phil Piratin denounced these tactics and instead called for large demonstrations. In addition to the militant anti-fascist movement, there was a smaller current of liberal anti-fascism in Britain; Sir Ernest Barker, for example, was a notable English liberal anti-fascist in the 1930s.
The Communists eventually pulled out and I think it wasn't because of the alliance with Hitler. Stalin hated the idea of coalition with socialists and liberals. He certainly hated them more than Nazis.
The word antifa, even as it was used in English, apparently predates the German antifascist movement with that nickname, appearing in a Boston newspaper in 1930. Anti-fascists opposed Mussolini, Hitler, and Trump. So, a name with a fine tradition and a knack for being on the right side of history. Where do I sign up? ;)
Quote from: Todd on July 20, 2020, 07:31:52 AM
It's Stumptown. Stupid is its thing. For instance, here is one of the more effective recent protests in the city:
(https://www.oregonlive.com/resizer/FNd4YXsejt0i6TK8olNVSDhNHxg=/1280x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/UMYBKVQ67NCDHKEH77BGT2VQLM.JPG)
(A frontal shot would have made a more powerful statement.)
There are nut jobs on both sides of the isle.
The Left is Now the Right by Matt Taibbi
Some juicy quotes:
The National Museum of African American History and Culture created a graphic on "Aspects and Assumptions of White Culture" that declared the following white values: "the scientific method," "rational, linear thinking," "the nuclear family," "children should have their own rooms," "hard work is the key to success," "be polite," "written tradition," and "self-reliance." White food is "steak and potatoes; bland is best," and in white justice, "intent counts."
The astute observer will notice this graphic could equally have been written by white supremacist Richard Spencer or History of White People parodist Martin Mull. It seems impossible that no one at one of the country's leading educational institutions noticed this messaging is ludicrously racist, not just to white people but to everyone (what is any person of color supposed to think when he or she reads that self-reliance, politeness, and "linear thinking" are white values?).
And here:
The notion that such bugbears as time, data, and the written word are racist has caught fire across the United States in the last few weeks, igniting calls for an end to virtually every form of quantitative evaluation in hiring and admissions, including many that were designed specifically to combat racism. Few tears will be shed for the SAT and ACT exams, even though they were once infamous for causing Harvard to be overpopulated with high-scoring "undesirables" like Jews and Catholics, forcing the school to add letters of reference and personal essays to help restore the WASP balance.
And for us classical music fans:
Before blind auditions, women made up less than 6 percent of orchestras; today they're half of the New York Philharmonic. But because the change did not achieve similar results with Black and Hispanic musicians, the blind audition must now be "altered to take into fuller account artists' backgrounds and experiences." This completes a decades-long circle where the left/liberal project went from working feverishly to expunge racial stereotypes in an effort to level the playing field, to denouncing itself for ever having done so.
One more:
The same strategy is used in DiAngelo's version of antiracist training. A theater employee forced to go through her program described the shock of being separated into "affinity groups"...If you're wondering what employees who "identify as white" can learn from being put in a room without minority co-workers and urged to "express themselves sincerely and honestly," you're not alone. Is "learning to speak in the absence of Black people" a muscle any sane person believes needs development?
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-left-is-now-the-right (https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-left-is-now-the-right)
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 20, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
The word antifa, even as it was used in English, apparently predates the German antifascist movement with that nickname, appearing in a Boston newspaper in 1930. Anti-fascists opposed Mussolini, Hitler, and Trump. So, a name with a fine tradition and a knack for being on the right side of history. Where do I sign up? ;)
https://www.rosecityantifa.org/
:
QuoteSolidarity helps us model the kind of world we want to live in: a classless society, free from all forms of oppression.
Probably try your local communist office?
Quote from: greg on July 20, 2020, 02:07:24 PM
https://www.rosecityantifa.org/
:Probably try your local communist office?
As I have pointed out, Communists have not been reliable allies for liberals and other left groups. I can't say I'm displeased because I'm prejudiced against them for their disturbing habit of being Russian and Chinese. I wish they would stay in their own countries like Karl Marx did.
The use of militarized police action in Portland will be a trial run for the full rollout in a number of cities. I would imagine Trump has the election results in mind, not just his law and order campaign, but what he will want to have in place when the results come in.
The lesson is that you take the despot seriously when he tells you what he will do, and what he's doing. The buffoonery doesn't mean it's just a show. Trump is preparing his options, and Portland ought to be understood in that context.
Quote from: drogulus on July 20, 2020, 04:48:56 PM
The use of militarized police action in Portland will be a trial run for the full rollout in a number of cities. I would imagine Trump has the election results in mind, not just his law and order campaign, but what he will want to have in place when the results come in.
The lesson is that you take the despot seriously when he tells you what he will do, and what he's doing. The buffoonery doesn't mean it's just a show. Trump is preparing his options, and Portland ought to be understood in that context.
I don't hear any criticism from Trumpkins, do you?
Quote from: drogulus on July 20, 2020, 04:48:56 PM
The use of militarized police action in Portland will be a trial run for the full rollout in a number of cities. I would imagine Trump has the election results in mind, not just his law and order campaign, but what he will want to have in place when the results come in.
The lesson is that you take the despot seriously when he tells you what he will do, and what he's doing. The buffoonery doesn't mean it's just a show. Trump is preparing his options, and Portland ought to be understood in that context.
if this doesn't backfire on him, I give up. Tump has been sinking. Will this really help him? I doubt it. There's money involved in the outcome in November too. If tump is broadly unpopular, influence will fly away. Maybe it's just wishful thinking.
On the other hand, what's going on locally with these protests will have another kind of effect, should trump go bye bye.
"Former Ohio Governor John Kasich is expected to speak at the DNC in August on Joe Biden's behalf, in a show of support for the Democratic presidential nominee, the Associated Press reports. Kasich is a life-long Republican who rose to prominence in the Tea Party Movement and has been a vocal critic of President Trump's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 20, 2020, 05:45:15 PM
"Former Ohio Governor John Kasich is expected to speak at the DNC in August on Joe Biden's behalf, in a show of support for the Democratic presidential nominee, the Associated Press reports. Kasich is a life-long Republican who rose to prominence in the Tea Party Movement and has been a vocal critic of President Trump's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic."
Yeccchhh!! I feel better about him when they are calling Uncle Joe a commie or a follower of AOC.
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 06:58:23 PM
No, it wasn't from that bugaboo "source" of yours, Simon, but the Hadith:
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/4/100
I don't believe you're getting this bigotry from your own close reading of the sacred texts of Islam.
And how many of the three and a half million Muslim Americans do you think are doing this? How many
anywhere?
Put down the alt-right propaganda and pick up a thick book, or better yet go talk to some actual Muslims. Seriously: head to the nearest mosque and run some of this past them.
And do you also judge Christians by all the crazy laws in the Bible that absolutely no one is following? Google "crazy bible verses".
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 07:14:27 PM
Well, history tells us they did so.....
So, it must have been their idea to stop being bloodthirsty beasts to each other and anyone else without the power to resist them. After a thousand years they made themselves good by their own efforts which had mysteriously not worked for all that time? That's it, they changed their minds.
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 07:14:27 PM
Here we go again. Mentioning acts from 500-1000 years ago to make Christianity look as bad as possible today. From your perspective, nothing has really changed with the religion, its adherents would still burn people at the stake or launch crusades, have an inquisition or whatever (as if only these events define it).
I'm not saying that at all. Religion has been changed very much by it's acceptance of humanism and self government, and proponents have occasionally tried to claim it was their idea!
Religion has been civilized in part by internal processes. The beast has been tamed, but it still has claws.
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 07:39:51 PM
Should there be perpetual riots and looting in cities? Answer me that, Maestro.
What could cause rioting to be prolonged? Heavy handed crackdowns might do it, though I doubt Trump has the focus and determination to keep them going to November. He'll move on to something else.
Quote from: Herman on July 20, 2020, 04:17:25 AM
You're just making things up to suit the "muslims kill people, white christians don't" story - against overwhelming evidence.
I'm not suggesting that at all but thanks for reminding me why I kept away from people at work and avoided conversation. I guess I'm cancelled :-[.
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 21, 2020, 01:05:36 AM
I'm not suggesting that at all but thanks for reminding me why I kept away from people at work and avoided conversation. I guess I'm cancelled :-[.
And how would I (or anybody else) "cancel" you here?
All I did was disagree with you.
Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2020, 02:16:34 AM
And how would I (or anybody else) "cancel" you here?
All I did was disagree with you.
Religion, race, sexuality, gender etc. are not safe topics, it's too easy to be accused of hate crime.
Maybe in real life, especially if you're in a position of power, but not here.
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 07:14:27 PM
Well, history tells us they did so.....
Here we go again. Mentioning acts from 500-1000 years ago to make Christianity look as bad as possible today. From your perspective, nothing has really changed with the religion, its adherents would still burn people at the stake or launch crusades, have an inquisition or whatever (as if only these events define it). I'm not saying the history is spotless or without criticism but my original point was that Christianity is the only religion where its critics can analyze and point out all the flaws meanwhile you do the same with Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or any others and you're branded a this, that and the other. Really, you are a perfect example of that kind of behavior, Drog.
So what made them adopt secular democracies? They certainly weren't forced down on them, being the bulk of the population when said governments were created. Can you give a little credit where credit is due?
Judaism has a tradition of argument and struggle with god. I'm not a believer but I did study it years ago. When you compare Talmudic interpretations of the Torah with someone like Luther, you see a much harder line of obedience in the latter. I'm not saying that settles the matter as this is a complicated question with no one answer.
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 07:20:21 PM
LOL. Can't show the base how senile ol' Joe is. The lengths to hide him are comical and camouflaging it with a disgruntled former Republican makes it funnier.
For his defection, Biden should make Kasich ambassador to the people's Republic of Crapistan. It's the post he deserves most.
I'd have to read this whole thing but I don't think "on behalf" means "instead of" in this context.
But Luther and the other reformators meant a huge step in both individual freedoms and further separation of church and state. We have been through this several times. Historically, there was exactly one culture in the history of mankind that developed modern science, modern separation of church and state and the powers within a state, individual rights and freedoms in the modern sense, women's rights, abolition of slavery and similar indentured service (except for wage slavery which is still around). This culture was (western catholic) Christian Europe. Neither imperial Rome nor imperial China nor the caliphate of Bagdad nor Mogul India nor the Ottoman Empire developed any of this, even less all of it. So either modernity fell from heaven like the Quran or it was brought forth by 1000 years of christianity.
Sure, some of these things (mostly superior naval and weapons tech) also gave Western European cultures the power to conquer or otherwise dominate most of the rest of the world in the last 500 years and very few people would deny that this was an abuse of power and often quite atrocious. (Although the atrocities by some of the other powers named above were not much less and if so probably mostly because for lack of opportunity.) And it was also the only culture who gave up at least a bit of that power through emancipation of formerly underprivileged and release of colonies etc. This does not mean that everything is (much less was) fair and just. But again, the West is basically the only culture that to some extent sharply condemns these past atrocities. In Germany it is legally forbidden to deny that the holocaust happened and every year there are speeches to confirm the bad conscience the grandchildren of the Nazi collaborators should have. In Turkey one will get into legal trouble if one calls the genocide against the Armenians genocide. I am not picking on Turkey, that's actually the historically normal thing to. (At least Turkey is discreet about it, Ramesses, Assurbanipal or Caesar would have erected monuments celebrating successful genocides.)
Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2020, 02:56:34 AM
Maybe in real life, especially if you're in a position of power, but not here.
It looks like this forum is woefully lacking in knowledge of what hate crimes are and who gets prosecuted for them.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 21, 2020, 03:38:35 AM
But Luther and the other reformators meant a huge step in both individual freedoms and further separation of church and state. We have been through this several times. Historically, there was exactly one culture in the history of mankind that developed modern science, modern separation of church and state and the powers within a state, individual rights and freedoms in the modern sense, women's rights, abolition of slavery and similar indentured service (except for wage slavery which is still around). This culture was (western catholic) Christian Europe. Neither imperial Rome nor imperial China nor the caliphate of Bagdad nor Mogul India nor the Ottoman Empire developed any of this, even less all of it. So either modernity fell from heaven like the Quran or it was brought forth by 1000 years of christianity.
Sure, some of these things (mostly superior naval and weapons tech) also gave Western European cultures the power to conquer or otherwise dominate most of the rest of the world in the last 500 years and very few people would deny that this was an abuse of power and often quite atrocious. (Although the atrocities by some of the other powers named above were not much less and if so probably mostly because for lack of opportunity.) And it was also the only culture who gave up at least a bit of that power through emancipation of formerly underprivileged and release of colonies etc. This does not mean that everything is (much less was) fair and just. But again, the West is basically the only culture that to some extent sharply condemns these past atrocities. In Germany it is legally forbidden to deny that the holocaust happened and every year there are speeches to confirm the bad conscience the grandchildren of the Nazi collaborators should have. In Turkey one will get into legal trouble if one calls the genocide against the Armenians genocide. I am not picking on Turkey, that's actually the historically normal thing to. (At least Turkey is discreet about it, Ramesses, Assurbanipal or Caesar would have erected monuments celebrating successful genocides.)
Europe conquered it's religions and developed alternative political formations. The story is complicated because modern apologists wish to claim the religions conquered themselves and by their own efforts sparked the rediscovery of classical civilization, and weak versions of the claim have truth in it.
I'm a little taken aback by apologists who have intense dislike for secular humanism and its political structures yet also wish to take credit for its founding institutions.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 21, 2020, 03:38:35 AM
But Luther and the other reformators meant a huge step in both individual freedoms and further separation of church and state. We have been through this several times. Historically, there was exactly one culture in the history of mankind that developed modern science, modern separation of church and state and the powers within a state, individual rights and freedoms in the modern sense, women's rights, abolition of slavery and similar indentured service (except for wage slavery which is still around). This culture was (western catholic) Christian Europe. Neither imperial Rome nor imperial China nor the caliphate of Bagdad nor Mogul India nor the Ottoman Empire developed any of this, even less all of it. So either modernity fell from heaven like the Quran or it was brought forth by 1000 years of christianity.
Sure, some of these things (mostly superior naval and weapons tech) also gave Western European cultures the power to conquer or otherwise dominate most of the rest of the world in the last 500 years and very few people would deny that this was an abuse of power and often quite atrocious. (Although the atrocities by some of the other powers named above were not much less and if so probably mostly because for lack of opportunity.) And it was also the only culture who gave up at least a bit of that power through emancipation of formerly underprivileged and release of colonies etc. This does not mean that everything is (much less was) fair and just. But again, the West is basically the only culture that to some extent sharply condemns these past atrocities. In Germany it is legally forbidden to deny that the holocaust happened and every year there are speeches to confirm the bad conscience the grandchildren of the Nazi collaborators should have. In Turkey one will get into legal trouble if one calls the genocide against the Armenians genocide. I am not picking on Turkey, that's actually the historically normal thing to. (At least Turkey is discreet about it, Ramesses, Assurbanipal or Caesar would have erected monuments celebrating successful genocides.)
This is too rambling for me. I'm not sure what you're getting at when it comes to the holocaust or the Armenian genocide or how it's related. I also don't know what "exactly one culture" is. I assume if it's Christianity then it starts with Jews like Jesus. But anyway, I have a hard time buying this type of argument because there are so many assumptions and it seems over-simplistic and tendentious. There were great Islamic scientists and mathematicians, as far as I understand. I do think liberalism and humanism are the most important values and have probably lifted up the most people. I'm not arguing against "western culture." I just think you seem to start with a political point and that saying all this springs from Christianity is too reductive. Have you read "Guns Germs and Steel" by the way? Does anyone around here like this book?
Quote from: drogulus on July 21, 2020, 04:49:18 AM
Europe conquered it's religions and developed alternative political formations. The story is complicated because modern apologists wish to claim the religions conquered themselves and by their own efforts sparked the rediscovery of classical civilization, and weak versions of the claim have truth in it.
I'm a little taken aback by apologists who have intense dislike for secular humanism and its political structures yet also wish to take credit for its founding institutions.
right. I have a hard time getting myself to believe this. Things do not happen simply. The course of history can be viewed so many ways. This seems like a very "modern" view of history.
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 07:22:44 PM
In Beijing. ;)
The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant.
As for organized Christianity: Throughout its existence the Catholic Church has always wielded as much temporal power, backed by violence, as it could get away with. Always — even if it's reduced to filling unmarked graves at Irish convents and sucking up to fascists.
Quote from: Dowder on July 20, 2020, 07:20:21 PM
LOL. Can't show the base how senile ol' Joe is. The lengths to hide him are comical and camouflaging it with a disgruntled former Republican makes it funnier.
For his defection, Biden should make Kasich ambassador to the people's Republic of Crapistan. It's the post he deserves most.
LOL, troll.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 21, 2020, 05:10:05 AM
The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant.
As for organized Christianity: Throughout its existence the Catholic Church has always wielded as much temporal power, backed by violence, as it could get away with. Always — even if it's reduced to filling unmarked graves at Irish convents and sucking up to fascists.
In this the Catholics are not behaving differently from other sects. There are plenty of examples from Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims.
Though religion has personal aspects not easily seen as political, for the most part religion is politics. Religious authorities want as much political sway as they can get, and will use any means to chip away at secular law and concepts of universal rights that limit their authority over people who don't have truth on their side. It's in the news almost every day, all over the world. One could easily conclude that politics is as much religion as religion is politics. The common opponent is the secular state that stops them from tearing each other to pieces.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 21, 2020, 05:10:05 AM
The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant.
As for organized Christianity: Throughout its existence the Catholic Church has always wielded as much temporal power, backed by violence, as it could get away with. Always — even if it's reduced to filling unmarked graves at Irish convents and sucking up to fascists.
"Not tightly organized" is far from "imaginary." I suppose the website I linked was also imaginary. They also have a flag which isn't imaginary. I have heard they have "leaders" but I would imagine at this point it's just small groups, and they aren't going to advertise themselves openly so often.
If they do any organizing it could be ways like this:
https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/
20,000 followers... so that's probably how you would sign up and coordinate for group activities.
Quote from: drogulus on July 21, 2020, 05:30:37 AM
In this the Catholics are not behaving differently from other sects. There are plenty of examples from Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims.
Though religion has personal aspects not easily seen as political, for the most part religion is politics. Religious authorities want as much political sway as they can get, and will use any means to chip away at secular law and concepts of universal rights that limit their authority over people who don't have truth on their side. It's in the news almost every day, all over the world. One could easily conclude that politics is as much religion as religion is politics. Their common opponent is the secular state that stops them from tearing each other to pieces.
Where religion is not philosophical (a question of the adherent moderating his own behavior and character) It is indeed likely to be about controlling people (inherent perhaps in the very phrase "religious authority")
Why, there are participants in this conversation who exemplify this.
Quote from: greg on July 21, 2020, 05:47:31 AM
"Not tightly organized" is far from "imaginary." I suppose the website I linked was also imaginary. They also have a flag which isn't imaginary. I have heard they have "leaders" but I would imagine at this point it's just small groups, and they aren't going to advertise themselves openly so often.
"I have heard..."
Congrats, perfect Trump-speak!
Fresh from AmPo: Americans support Black Lives Matter but resist shifts of police funds or removal of statues of Confederate generals or presidents who were enslavers (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/americans-support-black-lives-matter-but-resist-shifts-of-police-funds-or-removal-of-statues-of-confederate-generals-or-presidents-who-were-enslavers/2020/07/21/02d22468-cab0-11ea-91f1-28aca4d833a0_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-low_race-poll-625am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Trump is on the right electoral side on two of the issues in the article-cum-poll blob.
Since Trump is obviously using the tried and true law and order campaign approach, we must see if he can goad protestors in multiple cities into upping their violent actions so he can deploy feds to solve the problem. Since protestors are, as a rule, complete and total morons, he may be able to use this tactic to eek out a few more votes. He can't win, though. At least more lefty distress is on the way. It's best to look for the good in every situation.
From the failing New York Times: Planned Parenthood in N.Y. Disavows Margaret Sanger Over Eugenics (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/nyregion/planned-parenthood-margaret-sanger-eugenics.html)
This is just too much fun.
Quote from: Todd on July 21, 2020, 07:20:05 AM
From the failing New York Times: Planned Parenthood in N.Y. Disavows Margaret Sanger Over Eugenics (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/nyregion/planned-parenthood-margaret-sanger-eugenics.html)
This is just too much fun.
They'd better be careful with their photos, the people shown don't look very diverse :o.
Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2020, 06:31:09 AM
"I have heard..."
Congrats, perfect Trump-speak!
And he can mix it up with, "they're saying..."
"I'm not saying the Earth is flat but people say it is."
Super-Creepy 46 gets tough: Biden warns against foreign interference in US elections: 'I am putting the Kremlin and other foreign governments on notice' (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-warns-foreign-interference-us-elections-putting-kremlin/story?id=71886014)
Super-Creepy 46 even threatened to expose corruption. Putin will remain calm, I have no doubts; I have heard his nickname is Veritas Vlad.
Maybe someone will take Super-Creepy 46's threats like super-seriously.
Navy vet beaten by federal agents: 'They came out to fight' (https://apnews.com/4c521336d47c25d76d18000a3ea04511)
Quote from: greg on July 21, 2020, 05:47:31 AM
"Not tightly organized" is far from "imaginary." I suppose the website I linked was also imaginary. They also have a flag which isn't imaginary. I have heard they have "leaders" but I would imagine at this point it's just small groups, and they aren't going to advertise themselves openly so often.
If they do any organizing it could be ways like this:
https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/
20,000 followers... so that's probably how you would sign up and coordinate for group activities.
They have a website to uncoordinate their activities.
I'd like a flag with a picture of Serapis on it. Serapis is (I swear I read it somewhere) a fake god. As Super Creepy used to say, I'm not being facetious!
Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2020, 06:31:09 AM
"I have heard..."
Congrats, perfect Trump-speak!
Okay then, Tim Pool is my source for that one.
Of course your tribalistic mind wants to tie me to Trump whenever you don't like something I say. ::)
Quote from: greg on July 21, 2020, 05:47:31 AM
If they do any organizing it could be ways like this:
https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/
I first read that as "anti-faint".
Quote from: greg on July 21, 2020, 05:55:35 PM
Of course your tribalistic mind wants to tie me to Trump whenever you don't like something I say. ::)
Did you know there are river dolphins that swim in cloudy water so they're almost blind? They couldn't use their eyes so they lost their vision. However, they didn't do it on porpoise.
Quote from: drogulus on July 21, 2020, 07:39:03 PM
Did you know there are river dolphins that swim in cloudy water so they're almost blind? They couldn't use their eyes so they lost their vision. However, they didn't do it on porpoise.
You killed me. That was way too corny. :P
A new Trump ad warning of chaos & violence in the US depicts a cop being attacked by protesters...
... but is using a pic from the uprising in Kyiv, Ukraine, in 2014.
https://twitter.com/JesseLehrich/status/1285774309743644673/photo/1
https://twitter.com/JesseLehrich/status/1285774309743644673
Quote from: greg on July 21, 2020, 08:41:38 PM
You killed me. That was way too corny. :P
I know, I'm almost ashamed. Still, I do think you make a habit of seeking out cloudy water to swim in.
Quote from: greg on July 21, 2020, 08:41:38 PM
You killed me. That was way too corny. :P
Gangetic dolphins? Is that a word? I saw these years ago in Varanasi.
Trump needs to stop making fun of Joe Biden's mental lapses (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/21/trump-needs-stop-making-fun-joe-bidens-mental-lapses/)
I hope 45 does not heed the AmPo columnist's advice. The bit about how mocking Biden is offensive to seniors is a hoot, though. Thanks, Mr Thiessen.
Another day, another Progressive icon down:
Liberal, progressive — and racist? The Sierra Club faces its white-supremacist history. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/07/22/liberal-progressive-racist-sierra-club-faces-its-white-supremacist-history/?wpmk=1&wpisrc=al_news__alert-national&utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=wp_news_alert_revere&location=alert&pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.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.Lwpywd29e8ziGV2xZ0dOIOFE4X-zYQ3K4abUCJ8Gzs4)
AmPo provides two sensationalist headlines, depending on where one views it, in email or on the site. Here's the email headline and sub-headline:
Quote from: William Randolph Bezos' Amazon Washington Post
The Sierra Club, nation's oldest conservation group, is denouncing the racism of founder John Muir, the 'father of national parks'
The Sierra Club says it will "pull down" its monument to Muir, who supported white supremacy. Muir, who fought to preserve Yosemite Valley and Sequoia National Forest, also referred to African Americans with a racist pejorative that many black people consider to be even more offensive than the n-word.
Trump fought off a serious threat from Roger Stone by commuting his prison sentence.
Also during the briefing came the question about whether Ghislaine Maxwell, accused sex trafficker and recently arrested close associate of Jeffery Epstein would "turn in powerful men."
"I don't know, I haven't really been following it too much," Trump said. "I just wish her well, frankly. I've met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm Beach and I guess they lived in Palm Beach. But I wish her well, whatever it is."
Why didn't he run run towards lunch instead of giving a flawless answer to this very unfair question? Trump says out loud what he's thinking, not all of it but enough to figure out the unsaid part. Perhaps Maxwell has nothing much to say about the services she provided to her future well wishers. Maybe Trump has forgotten how innocent he really is and well wishes just in case.
Maybe all those good wishes for Maxwell just mean that, in his addled brain, he remembers rather liking her.
He is one of those odious men who like "women with a British accent".
He had pestered Princess Diana for months for a date.
Maxwell of course had as a plus that her dad was a big time swindler.
Extra $600 in unemployment benefits doesn't keep people from working, analysis finds (https://money.yahoo.com/extra-600-in-unemployment-benefits-doesnt-keep-people-from-working-analysis-finds-182827326.html)
This is one of the stupidest talking points Repubs use, that people who have lost jobs have jobs waiting for them if only they were not deterred by receiving benefits.
There is no reason to believe that there are lots of jobs available for the unemployed to take if only benefits were eliminated.
There is reason to believe that filling a huge demand hole with benefits will hasten the day when jobs will be available, and that keeping demand from spiraling down prevents further job loss, which is a big part of the reason benefits exist.
Many Repubs actually know this, but they can't say it because it would make it clear how stupid and dishonest the shrinkonomics they publicly adhere to really is.
Quote from: drogulus on July 21, 2020, 07:39:03 PM
Did you know there are river dolphins that swim in cloudy water so they're almost blind? They couldn't use their eyes so they lost their vision. However, they didn't do it on porpoise.
Lo! he spake in parables
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 21, 2020, 12:32:56 PM
Navy vet beaten by federal agents: 'They came out to fight' (https://apnews.com/4c521336d47c25d76d18000a3ea04511)
I heard about it too. So incredibly sad....and maddening!
PD
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2020, 08:26:53 AM
Lo! he spake in parables
Usually buried treasure is stored away from mass gatherings of people. And the route to it is normally not safe.
Quote from: greg on July 22, 2020, 09:15:22 AM
Usually buried treasure is stored away from mass gatherings of people. And the route to it is normally not safe.
If all I needed to do is look for an unsafe road to find treasure I'd be rich, or dead, or a river dolphin.
(https://i.insider.com/5432d79beab8ea5e3efce97b?width=954&format=jpeg)
Quote from: greg on July 21, 2020, 05:47:31 AM
"Not tightly organized" is far from "imaginary." I suppose the website I linked was also imaginary. They also have a flag which isn't imaginary. I have heard they have "leaders" but I would imagine at this point it's just small groups, and they aren't going to advertise themselves openly so often.
If they do any organizing it could be ways like this:
https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/
20,000 followers... so that's probably how you would sign up and coordinate for group activities.
Depends on how "not tightly," but you're focused on the wrong word. Antifa is an imaginary terrorist organization primarily because they don't do terrorism, not because of their state of disorganization. Occasionally doxing a Nazi or punching one in the face isn't terrorism.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 22, 2020, 10:26:06 AM
Depends on how "not tightly," but you're focused on the wrong word. Antifa is an imaginary terrorist organization primarily because they don't do terrorism, not because of their state of disorganization. Occasionally doxing a Nazi or punching one in the face isn't terrorism.
In his muddy water, he is terrified of the phantom.
https://www.youtube.com/v/gsaO3v4SvwA&feature=emb_logo
I miss Jerry Stiller.
https://www.youtube.com/v/4K3wyEYalBs
In case you wondered if anyone named Trump could speak with intelligence ....
Quote from: drogulus on July 22, 2020, 09:29:01 AM
If all I needed to do is look for an unsafe road to find treasure I'd be rich, or dead, or a river dolphin.
That's why you use a map, if available, or explore on your own. It doesn't necessarily have to be dangerous but often can be.
Just look at all the dolphin tribes obsessing over a spoon or a coke can, thinking it's the treasure. Nah, don't think I'll take their advice.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2020, 10:47:12 AM
In his muddy water, he is terrified of the phantom.
Perceiving the world as only black and white is what children do.
And can't say I'm terrified, or that they are phantom...
Biden says Trump is America's first 'racist' president (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-says-trump-is-americas-first-racist-president/2020/07/22/867017e8-cc4b-11ea-bc6a-6841b28d9093_story.html)
Quote from: Senile Old ManWe've had racists, and they've existed, they've tried to get elected president. He's the first one that has.
Looks like Super-Creepy 46 failed history in high school and college. That's unfortunate.
Quote from: Todd on July 22, 2020, 05:55:34 PM
Biden says Trump is America's first 'racist' president (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-says-trump-is-americas-first-racist-president/2020/07/22/867017e8-cc4b-11ea-bc6a-6841b28d9093_story.html)
Looks like Super-Creepy 46 failed history in high school and college. That's unfortunate.
Wrong number. This is why it's not going to stick to JB — the creepy thing that is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K7sa7EeUGc
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 23, 2020, 05:04:45 AMWrong number.
Oh, you think Trump will win reelection. OK. Good to know.
Meanwhile, on the local front:
Amid a tense meeting with protesters, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler tear-gassed by federal agents (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/23/ted-wheeler-portland-tear-gas/)
Poor Ted. He couldn't deal with the homeless crisis. He couldn't deal with the cost of housing. (To be fair, high home prices and high rental rates in Portland are the outcomes of conscious, exclusionary policy choices pursued by Metro.) He can't strike a balance between protests and public safety. No wonder he has to face a run-off for his shit job.
I'm reminded of George Bluth's statement to Buster: "You were just a turd out there."
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 23, 2020, 05:04:45 AM
Wrong number. This is why it's not going to stick to JB — the creepy thing that is:
You have to admit Super Creepy does have a little creepy in him, especially by contemporary standards. He's not a well wisher, though. Well wishing seems like a line unsafe to cross for a Presidential candidate. It goes to 11 on the creepy scale, right up there with the "hot daughter" or even beyond.
Very pretty to see someone who loves Dementia J. Trump worried about Biden's performance in history class.
Michael Cohen to be released from prison after judge sides with claims of retaliation (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/michael-cohen-released-from-prison-retaliation/2020/07/23/f8adefe8-ccf9-11ea-91f1-28aca4d833a0_story.html?tidr=a_breakingnews&hpid=hp_no-name_hp-breaking-news%3Apage%2Fbreaking-news-bar)
The treason of the judges continues. I can't say I'm ecstatic about judicial rescue. It shouldn't have come to that.
All he tries to save is his own ass
https://www.youtube.com/v/lUiDLcp_hIw
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2020, 11:36:06 AM
All he tries to save is his own ass
https://www.youtube.com/v/lUiDLcp_hIw
Very clever! How did you run across this Karl?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 23, 2020, 01:14:04 PM
Very clever! How did you run across this Karl?
PD
Randy's been entertaining us for years. Here is my favorite: (He is the very model of a very stable genius)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-LTRwZb35A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-LTRwZb35A)
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 23, 2020, 01:14:04 PM
Very clever! How did you run across this Karl?
PD
I've subscribed to his YouTube channel, PD.
My vote would be for the Jesus Christ Superstar medley as his best one so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW2SEpWWqXM
Here's Why Mitt Romney Thinks Donald Trump Will Win Reelection (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mitt-romney-trump-election-2020_n_5f19bdf6c5b6f2f6c9f31c6f)
I'm not sure Romney's electoral acumen outside Utah is the best. What say the unprincipled members of GMG who mocked Mitt in 2012 but who have made sure to refer to his anti-Trump pronouncements more recently, is the Senator right? (And is it Mitt or Mittens, I forget.)
Number one there's an advantage to being the incumbent.
But not when the whole country turned into a shitshow on your watch, for a significant part thanks to your incompetence.
El Mitt is too bashful however to mention nr. four: as the president you can mess up, with the help of governors of your party, the election process to your advantage.
El Mitt. New and clever.
Quote from: Todd on July 24, 2020, 06:18:57 AM
Here's Why Mitt Romney Thinks Donald Trump Will Win Reelection (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mitt-romney-trump-election-2020_n_5f19bdf6c5b6f2f6c9f31c6f)
I'm not sure Romney's electoral acumen outside Utah is the best. What say the unprincipled members of GMG who mocked Mitt in 2012 but who have made sure to refer to his anti-Trump pronouncements more recently, is the Senator right? (And is it Mitt or Mittens, I forget.)
Todd I can only speak for myself.
I did not vote for Romney because I disagreed with many of his policies. I did not think he was a bad person. He would have been a far superior President than Trump.
Quote from: arpeggio on July 24, 2020, 08:42:04 AM
Todd I can only speak for myself.
I did not vote for Romney because I disagreed with many of his policies. I did not think he was a bad person. He would have been a far superior President than Trump.
He tried, perhaps implausibly, to run a right wing campaign based on the notion that Americans take too much. Lots of Americans do that, and it's shocking how much they are allowed to spend. The economy would be so much better off if we reduced that spending dramatically. The takers and all the businesses they support need to be more disciplined and make do with less so the economy can grow.
A Trump-smoocher calling anyone else "unprincipled," is rich. Thanks for the chuckle.
And: a reminder.
When Huggy Bear (mini-trump-like) calls Biden "super creepy," This is what he's cool with:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Mo1lDJrZKx8
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2020, 11:28:19 AM
And: a reminder.
When Huggy Bear (mini-trump-like) calls Biden "super creepy," This is what he's cool with:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Mo1lDJrZKx8
That, along with creeping on teenage girls in dressing rooms, numerous sexual assaults, and the occasional rape.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 24, 2020, 01:21:06 PM
That, along with creeping on teenage girls in dressing rooms, numerous sexual assaults, and the occasional rape.
I'm merely speculating, but what if Trump
only wishes Maxwell well, not Roger Stone-like, but just the words with no follow through?
One must assume she flips if she doesn't get something more tangible than a wish. For Trump, though, Maxwell is not easy to help going into an election. Even die hard Trumpists might have a problem with her grooming 13 year old girls to be sex toys for rich men. There's a limit, somewhere.
A second swing at the question:
HANNITY: You are asking the American people for four more years. If you are given the four more years, what will this country look like, in your view, four years from now?
TRUMP: So it's all going to be about America first. We always put other countries before us, which is so foolish and so horrible. And it has been so destructive for us. It's about America first. We will help other countries, but we want to take care of ourselves. We are going to be building factories. We are going to be bringing in shops like you've never seen. We were all set to do it until we got hit with the virus.
Our troops will be home. The endless wars are already ending. Down to very few soldiers in — as you know, in Afghanistan. Very few in Iraq. Syria is largely out except we kept the oil. We have oil there that we kept. I didn't want to leave the oil, we kept it. We took it over.
We are going to be about jobs like you haven't seen. We are going to be respected. And we are now by other countries. They're respecting us more than they have in many, many decades. I will tell you that. We are going to have a wall that is complete. We're up to 257 miles on the new wall. And by the way, if we didn't have that wall in right now, you would have numbers in Texas and in California, in New Mexico like you wouldn't believe.
But we built 257 miles of — it's 450 but we are going to do about 537 miles altogether. And it will give a complete, beautiful wall on our southern border that has really helped.
And the other thing is, we are going to start making our product. And I have been pushing this from before this happened. We are going to make things here. We will make them here. Right now China and many other countries are doing what we are supposed to be doing. They went, they became globalists, these great geniuses became globalists. And they really hurt our country.
We are going to start making it here. As with Elon Musk, I said, Elon, build a factory in Texas. He just announced today they're building one of the biggest plants in the world, auto plant for Tesla, and it's going to be in Texas. And, you know, it's great. He called me up just a little while ago to say, I got it done. So that meeting, he got it done. But I was pushing that job very hard from Elon, because we work with him and we do a lot for him. And I said, it's time. And he was great. He's doing a good job.
But the other thing we have done is Space Force. You know, we put it in, it's the first time in 76 years we have a new force. We have — so important, the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and now we have the Air Force. It's so great. And it's so important. It's going to end up being one of — at first, I didn't even talk about that on the campaign. This was after I got in office.
I realized we need it. Because China and Russia were going to dominate space. And we can't let that — and now we're going to be dominating space. They're not too happy about what we did with Air Force. But we have it. And — with Space Force.
So we have now Space Force, so important, and so many other things, Sean, regulation cuts, tax cuts, the biggest tax cuts in history, biggest regulation cuts in history. And we are going to continue that forward. There are still many things we can do. But the bottom line is we are putting America first and we are making America better than it has ever been.
You will see that. We are going to have a great year next year. We're going to have a great third quarter. And the nice thing about the third quarter is the results are going to come out before the election.
Quote from: drogulus on July 24, 2020, 02:15:18 PM
I'm merely speculating, but what if Trump only wishes Maxwell well, not Roger Stone-like, but just the words with no follow through?
One must assume she flips if she doesn't get something more tangible than a wish. For Trump, though, Maxwell is not easy to help going into an election. Even die hard Trumpists might have a problem with her grooming 13 year old girls to be sex toys for rich men. There's a limit, somewhere.
I see no reason to imagine there's a limit, anywhere. But he can't pardon her or commute her sentence before a trial, and that won't be over before the end of Trump's term.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 24, 2020, 03:39:40 PM
I see no reason to imagine there's a limit, anywhere. But he can't pardon her or commute her sentence before a trial, and that won't be over before the end of Trump's term.
It only seems like there's no limit to tolerance for depravity among the Trump voters. At least a few of them might object to the 13 year old sex slave thing. It wouldn't take that many (as things look right now) to turn defeat into a rout.
But they already have Trump on record on multiple occasions openly and unashamedly lusting after his own daughter.
And that's not even a blip on the radar for the Trump supporter. It's not even a talking point.
He'll get right up in front of a rally and tell the crowd how much better those girls lives have become since they've become prostitutes, how now they get to wear pretty dresses and are treated like princesses.
Quote from: drogulus on July 24, 2020, 04:04:58 PM
It only seems like there's no limit to tolerance for depravity among the Trump voters. At least a few of them might object to the 13 year old sex slave thing. It wouldn't take that many (as things look right now) to turn defeat into a rout.
If they object, they do so in the privacy of their own bubble. Can't criticize Leader where them libs might hear!
"Democrat fake news! I hear all those girls have to do is pour tea, play the shamisen and recite haiku! It's a great life!"
For the "what lies?" bozos:
https://www.youtube.com/v/BJy3FM_sLqM
Quote from: drogulus on July 24, 2020, 04:04:58 PM
It only seems like there's no limit to tolerance for depravity among the Trump voters. At least a few of them might object to the 13 year old sex slave thing. It wouldn't take that many (as things look right now) to turn defeat into a rout.
Trump is just a vessel used by God. If you're pastor won't explain this to you, you should change pastors.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/3/5/16796892/trump-cyrus-christian-right-bible-cbn-evangelical-propaganda
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 24, 2020, 03:39:40 PM
I see no reason to imagine there's a limit, anywhere. But he can't pardon her or commute her sentence before a trial, and that won't be over before the end of Trump's term.
Commuting a sentence obviously can't happen until after trial, conviction, and sentence, but he can pardon her at anytime. A pardon can be issued to a person who hasn't yet been charged, as with Nixon or those scenarios where he pardons himself before leaving office.
Most likely he's busier with figuring out the pardon situation for himself and his crime family.
By the time Maxwell goes to court (if she survives) Trump is out of office.
Also I'm guessing Trump doesn't figure too big in the Epstein circus, since Trump is and was not so much into tiny teenagers but rather more into the artificially inflated type. Trump indicated as much in his encomium on Epstein, noting JE like them "more on the younger side". He meant that as praise, from one player to another.
Judge denies Oregon attorney general's motion to restrict federal police actions (https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/federal-judge-finds-state-lacks-standing-denies-oregon-attorney-generals-motion-to-restrict-federal-police-actions.html)
The nightly show will continue. Every night, just before I go to sleep, I watch the local news, which leads off with tales of bravery and principle displayed by the righteous protestors demanding justice. Every night, I see images of lefties in distress. Little bursts of dopamine lull me into a golden slumber. Thank you, Mr Mosman!
(Ms Rosenblum lost twice in two days in federal court: 9th Circuit rejects bid by Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum to halt signature gathering for redistricting initiative (https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/07/9th-circuit-rejects-bid-by-oregon-attorney-general-ellen-rosenblum-to-keep-redistricting-plan-off-november-ballot.html). This case is more important than how dipshit protestors are handled. One may question her judgment.)
It once might have seemed paranoid to imagine Trump would activate a strategy to remain in office after losing the election. I probably thought something like that until recently. He wouldn't really do what he fantasized about. Now, though, I don't have much choice in the matter but to take my own advice and believe what a "let's not call him" fascist says and does.
The explanation that this is election theater and not election invalidation doesn't work well any more. Is anyone more likely to vote for Trump because he's increasing the chaos and and reinvigorating the protests? The people who welcome his actions are all super Trump voters. None are potential Trumpists by any reckoning, they are hard core.
If it's not electioneering, it's something else, probably what it looks like. The only reason not to recognize what's happening from examples all over the world is some variation of "it can't happen here".
Quote from: drogulus on July 25, 2020, 08:18:08 AM
The explanation that this is election theater and not election invalidation doesn't work well any more. Is anyone more likely to vote for Trump because he's increasing the chaos and and reinvigorating the protests? The people who welcome his actions are all super Trump voters. None are potential Trumpists by any reckoning, they are hard core.
If you put it like this, no, people won't vote for him that way.
But millions of Americans are in a totally different information zone, thinking he's combating the chaos ("law & order") rather than fomenting it. These people also have a totally different outlook on federal troops / unmarked cars etc in "Liberal cities". Who knows, it may help him in the elections.
Keep in mind, he promised violence during his 2016 campaign, and in his acceptance speech, so basically he's just delivering the goods. Violence and death have been two constant factors in his message.
In my mind the way Trump is explicitly mentioning that he's sending troops to Democratic-run cities is not his smartest move, showing the political motivation, which may or may not come to haunt him.
Quote from: Herman on July 25, 2020, 08:53:00 AM
If you put it like this, no, people won't vote for him that way.
But millions of Americans are in a totally different information zone, thinking he's combating the chaos ("law & order") rather than fomenting it. These people also have a totally different outlook on federal troops / unmarked cars etc in "Liberal cities". Who knows, it may help him in the elections.
Keep in mind, he promised violence during his 2016 campaign, and in his acceptance speech, so basically he's just delivering the goods. Violence and death have been two constant factors in his message.
In my mind the way Trump is explicitly mentioning that he's sending troops to Democratic-run cities is not his smartest move, showing the political motivation, which may or may not come to haunt him.
What he's trying to do is convince voters that 1)all the protests are violent riots and 2) the protesters/rioters are the core of the Democratic Party, so 3)Trump re-elected is the from the rioters.
Quote from: Herman on July 25, 2020, 08:53:00 AM
Keep in mind, he promised violence during his 2016 campaign, and in his acceptance speech, so basically he's just delivering the goods. Violence and death have been two constant factors in his message.
In my mind the way Trump is explicitly mentioning that he's sending troops to Democratic-run cities is not his smartest move, showing the political motivation, which may or may not come to haunt him.
That's why election theater is an insufficient explanation. Take him at his word. He won't accept election results that go against him. He said his position is the same as it was in 2016, when he made it clear he wouldn't accept defeat. Isn't it time to take him seriously? What's the evidence that Trump doesn't make good on every threat he utters when he can? Now Trump has the levers of power at his disposal and it would be foolish to think he won't use them to the greatest extent he can. He has to stay in the White House to avoid the Big House.
Oh, I don't think we disagree there. Biden will need to win solidly. If it's only a couple points Trump will say it's too close to call, what with millions of illegals voting or whatever fictional excuse his base readily accepts, and McConnell will take his side.
Quote from: Herman on July 25, 2020, 09:46:39 AM
Oh, I don't think we disagree there. Biden will need to win solidly. If it's only a couple points Trump will say it's too close to call, what with millions of illegals voting or whatever fictional excuse his base readily accepts, and McConnell will take his side.
I don't think even a landslide would persuade Trump. The likely outcome of a massive defeat would that he'd lose control over the forces he needs to stay in power. He'd be like Mr. Hilter in the bunker moving imaginary armies around on the map.
A big electoral defeat would be China's fault, therefore nullifying a Democratic victory. It will be his excuse to keep his seat warm in the oval office. That, and the need to 'restore order' after the inevitable demonstrations/riots that will follow the election (only he can do it of course).
Quote from: drogulus on July 25, 2020, 08:18:08 AM
The explanation that this is election theater and not election invalidation doesn't work well any more. Is anyone more likely to vote for Trump because he's increasing the chaos and and reinvigorating the protests? The people who welcome his actions are all super Trump voters. None are potential Trumpists by any reckoning, they are hard core.
If it's not electioneering, it's something else, probably what it looks like. The only reason not to recognize what's happening from examples all over the world is some variation of "it can't happen here".
It's a mistake to assume it's one thing or the other — or indeed anything in particular. One need understand only two things to explain Trump's play: (1) Chaos, division, and distraction favor him and decisions about how to exploit these conditions can be made on the fly as the situation develops. (2) The only limit on what Trump is willing to do is what he believes he can get away with.
So what is Trump doing right now with irregular troops? He's seeing how far he can push them in the service of his ends, testing loyalty and will, which is why he's choosing those branches whose fortunes and scope have improved under his administration and whose future is less certain if the opposition wins: homeland security, prison guards, ICE, and border protection. He's also testing how far he can employ troops outside of their normal training and purview, which is why, for example, idled Texas prison guards were on the streets of DC assaulting peaceful protestors. And, as always, he's testing how far invertebrate republicans will back him as he undermines one constitutional protection or provision after another. In other words, all of this is about point (2) above.
What are the ultimate "goals"* of these actions? Trump's scope for using irregular troops increases as a function of the chaos, violence, and division he can create by using them, as well as that created by mass unemployment and homelessness due to evictions and foreclosures, should these conditions come to pass. Ideally, he would prefer rioting and mass unrest as the election approaches because this would allow him, potentially and depending on (2), to deploy troops at polling stations in major cities (Dem districts) to "guard the integrity of the election process," to declare and enforce martial law in some form, or to foment armed insurrection if he loses.
*Trump doesn't necessarily have specific goals.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 25, 2020, 10:55:48 AM
It's a mistake to assume it's one thing or the other — or indeed anything in particular. One need understand only two things to explain Trump's play: (1) Chaos, division, and distraction favor him and decisions about how to exploit these conditions can be made on the fly as the situation develops. (2) The only limit on what Trump is willing to do is what he believes he can get away with.
So what is Trump doing right now with irregular troops? He's seeing how far he can push them in the service of his ends, testing loyalty and will, which is why he's choosing those branches whose fortunes and scope have improved under his administration and whose future is less certain if the opposition wins: homeland security, prison guards, ICE, and border protection. He's also testing how far he can employ troops outside of their normal training and purview, which is why, for example, idled Texas prison guards were on the streets of DC assaulting peaceful protestors. And, as always, he's testing how far invertebrate republicans will back him as he undermines one constitutional protection or provision after another. In other words, all of this is about point (2) above.
What are the ultimate "goals"* of these actions? Trump's scope for using irregular troops increases as a function of the chaos, violence, and division he can create by using them, as well as that created by mass unemployment and homelessness due to evictions and foreclosures, should these conditions come to pass. Ideally, he would prefer rioting and mass unrest as the election approaches because this would allow him, potentially and depending on (2), to deploy troops at polling stations in major cities (Dem districts) to "guard the integrity of the election process," to declare and enforce martial law in some form, or to foment armed insurrection if he loses.
*Trump doesn't necessarily have specific goals.
I think Trump is aware of the final option and is preparing for it. It's become evident to him that he has no viable option to legitimately win.
While Trump is stupid in general, he's fairly clever about what endangers him. If his chaos strategy is electioneering, it's only an intermediate step towards something already in his mind.
Peace-Loving Black Trump Supporter Was Shot Dead Just Hours After Giving a "Pro-Trump" Local TV Interview
https://www.waynedupree.com/2020/07/bernell-trammell-murder-blm-trump/
Black Lives Matter?
Could be coincidence. But... I doubt there will be riots for him even if it was found to be tied to some political dispute.
Quote from: greg on July 25, 2020, 11:29:04 AM
Peace-Loving Black Trump Supporter Was Shot Dead Just Hours After Giving a "Pro-Trump" Local TV Interview
https://www.waynedupree.com/2020/07/bernell-trammell-murder-blm-trump/
Black Lives Matter?
Could be coincidence. But... I doubt there will be riots for him even if it was found to be tied to some political dispute.
Murders take place with no police involvement. BLM focuses on those that do, and I support them in their cause. Now, do you interpret that as not caring about other murders? Why would you do that?
Quote from: drogulus on July 25, 2020, 03:41:20 PM
Murders take place with no police involvement. BLM focuses on those that do, and I support them in their cause. Now, do you interpret that as not caring about other murders? Why would you do that?
I tried to find out some info as to what happened, but so far anyway, couldn't find out any details. :( I want to know more before commenting....still sorry for his death.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2020, 03:46:48 PM
I tried to find out some info as to what happened, but so far anyway, couldn't find out any details. :( I want to know more before commenting....still sorry for his death.
PD
Of course!
I don't think there would be any mass protests if somebody murdered me, and that wouldn't necessarily be due to widespread prejudice against eliminative materialists or Pats fans.
'White as hell': Portland protesters face off with Trump but are they eclipsing Black Lives Matter? (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/26/portland-federal-agents-teargas-protesters-black-lives-matter)
The article comes with a nice action shot!
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/32cf7315676e963ed2a5210ff97bd3ca0e3a2559/0_233_3500_2102/master/3500.jpg?width=1140&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=55cefdab3cec2bf7b742aa803f1181e2)
From the Graun's very thoughtful article:
Quote from: Chris McGrealThe president of the Portland branch of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), ED Mondainé, warned that the Black Lives Matter movement in the city is being coopted by "privileged white people" with other agendas. He said the confrontations with the federal officers sent by the president are little more than a "spectacle and a distraction that do nothing for the cause of black equality".
A couple weeks back during one of the protests one local reporter interviewed a black police officer who observed that there are often more black police officers than black protestors in Stumptown. Who cares? Now more than ever we need the Wall of
Karens Moms!
We definitely would benefit from more protesters of color, but not to the exclusion of color deprived ones.
From the failing New York Times:
Fires and Pepper Spray in Seattle as Police Protests Widen Across U.S.
From Los Angeles to New York, protesters marched in a show of solidarity with demonstrations in Portland, Ore. In Seattle, they smashed windows and set fires. A shooting at a protest in Austin, Texas, left one man dead. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/25/us/protests-seattle-portland.html)
Things are ramping up. Wikipedia cites 29 deaths from the "George Floyd protests". Maybe if the US reaches 100, 200, 500 or more deaths, the electoral tide may turn. Trump's tactics may work. Nah, jobs matter more than the lives of idiotic protestors.
Quote from: greg on July 25, 2020, 11:29:04 AM
Peace-Loving Black Trump Supporter Was Shot Dead Just Hours After Giving a "Pro-Trump" Local TV Interview
https://www.waynedupree.com/2020/07/bernell-trammell-murder-blm-trump/
Black Lives Matter?
Could be coincidence. But... I doubt there will be riots for him even if it was found to be tied to some political dispute.
BLM is indeed more a leftish political movement I guess. Not always a good thing.
BLM has it's moral failures as well. It's not superior or something. That would have to be recognized.
I think we will not need see a resolution because of this, more of a continuing battle in which agreements and more just policies will be possible, without coming to overall resolution or consensus.
It's also a matter of 'love for guns' imo. That is alien to BLM and the left I guess, but to other folks it's part of their culture and life. I definitely am more inclined to left because of this element.
There is one mistake that I hope the Democrats do not make. I do not thing Biden will make this mistake.
There are many conservatives who are against Trump and they are actively campaigning against him. Conservatism is not evil. Sometimes the conservative solution is the best way to address a problem. Even is Biden wins the election by twenty points, that would mean that a least 30% of the electorate supports Trump. They are still Americans and we should try to work with them.
The bad news is that Obama tried to do this and it did not work.
I value my "white life" in a way that allows for the possibility that other variously colored lives don't matter less. I interpret BLM goals in that light because nothing this protest movement has done gives me cause to think they have a different understanding.
BLM doesn't support the idea that it solves a problem of any kind for the police to murder more white people to equalize the proportions.
I note with glee and disdain that opponents of BLM deploy the same sort of zero sum reasoning they do for shrinkonomics. If we let the poor get a little richer the richer will become poorer. If all lives matter equally white lives must matter less.
Quote from: drogulus on July 26, 2020, 07:25:14 AM
I value my "white life" in a way that allows for the possibility that other variously colored lives don't matter less. I interpret BLM goals in that light because nothing this protest movement has done gives me cause to think they have a different understanding.
BLM doesn't support the idea that it solves a problem of any kind for the police to murder more white people to equalize the proportions.
I note with glee and disdain that opponents of BLM deploy the same sort of zero sum reasoning they do for shrinkonomics. If we let the poor get a little richer the richer will become poorer. If all lives matter equally white live must matter less.
Solid, Jackson!
https://www.youtube.com/v/_dzqrdHVE2g
"I cannot apologize for my passion, or for loving my God, my family, and my country! I yield back!"
He forgot Checkers, the little black and white cocker spaniel he's going to keep no matter what anyone says.
Quote from: drogulus on July 25, 2020, 03:41:20 PM
Murders take place with no police involvement. BLM focuses on those that do, and I support them in their cause. Now, do you interpret that as not caring about other murders? Why would you do that?
Because the name makes no sense. It should be Police violence against Black people is bad. PVABPIB. But since that isn't catchy, let's just make a movement that has such a vague name that in practice it could stand for a lot of different things.
I interpret it as not caring (at least not nearly as much) because PVABPIB incidents are protested, but if a black life is taken by anyone other than a white police officer then there will be no protests (or if there are, then they never get anywhere near the level of current protests).
Seems BLM should protest the murder of any black person, regardless of who the murderer is, if it were to live up to its name...
Quote from: drogulus on July 26, 2020, 07:25:14 AM
I note with glee and disdain that opponents of BLM deploy the same sort of zero sum reasoning they do for shrinkonomics. If we let the poor get a little richer the richer will become poorer. If all lives matter equally white lives must matter less.
This sounds like the conservative stance only, though... you can be moderate and in support of such things like minimum wage increase, but also suspicious or skeptical of some things that BLM may be tied to (Marxism, for example)... there's still a middle ground here...
Quote from: greg on July 26, 2020, 02:51:51 PM
Seems BLM should protest the murder of any black person, regardless of who the murderer is, if it were to live up to its name...
BLM addresses a systemic, institutional problem, not unrelated random events. How could you not get that? (That's a rhetorical question; I know exactly why you don't get it.)
Quote from: greg on July 26, 2020, 02:51:51 PM
Because the name makes no sense.
The name is not so vague that anyone has trouble knowing what it means. The context is clear.
Quote from: greg on July 26, 2020, 02:51:51 PM
Seems BLM should protest the murder of any black person, regardless of who the murderer is, if it were to live up to its name...
That would dilute the message. I think BLM is doing it right. I know what they're doing and why.
Quote from: greg on July 26, 2020, 02:56:25 PM
This sounds like the conservative stance only, though... you can be moderate and in support of such things like minimum wage increase, but also suspicious or skeptical of some things that BLM may be tied to (Marxism, for example)... there's still a middle ground here...
What do you care what Marxists support? Fuck'em, I say.
Quote from: greg on July 26, 2020, 02:51:51 PM
Seems BLM should protest the murder of any black person, regardless of who the murderer is, if it were to live up to its name...
as ever you seem to be blissfully unaware how bigoted you are
Quote from: Dowder on July 26, 2020, 05:39:56 PM
More like not at all.
You said it. If white lives don't matter more they don't matter at all. Equality isn't good enough. However, even in Trumpist America it's not the kind of thing you're supposed to say, is it? The rejoinder is supposed to be "all lives matter", which is less harsh, if a bit less honest.
Quote from: drogulus on July 26, 2020, 07:25:14 AM
I value my "white life" in a way that allows for the possibility that other variously colored lives don't matter less. I interpret BLM goals in that light because nothing this protest movement has done gives me cause to think they have a different understanding.
BLM doesn't support the idea that it solves a problem of any kind for the police to murder more white people to equalize the proportions.
I note with glee and disdain that opponents of BLM deploy the same sort of zero sum reasoning they do for shrinkonomics. If we let the poor get a little richer the richer will become poorer. If all lives matter equally white lives must matter less.
What about critics such as Glen Loury, John McWhorter, Jamil Jivani, Coleman Hughes, etc.? Right now, it's true that it's very hard to criticize BLM without risking personal destruction. You have to realize that BLM has a very radical agenda on a host of issues, including reparations and even international issues. Maybe you didn't know it. They have a manifesto, big funding, and they support a range of proposals. They are not in the mainstream on these issues, mostly. I do think the reason most of my old friends fervently support BLM is because they believe they're doing a good thing. Most people don't know much about the founding ideology of BLM. There is some evidence, BTW, that the pull-back of police, following these protests, does way more harm in terms of deaths (in the black community) than these anecdotal police killings.
Quote from: milk on July 26, 2020, 09:11:13 PM
What about critics such as Glen Loury, John McWhorter, Jamil Jivani, Coleman Hughes, etc.? Right now, it's true that it's very hard to criticize BLM without risking personal destruction. You have to realize that BLM has a very radical agenda on a host of issues, including reparations and even international issues. Maybe you didn't know it. They have a manifesto, big funding, and they support a range of proposals. They are not in the mainstream on these issues, mostly. I do think the reason most of my old friends fervently support BLM is because they believe they're doing a good thing. Most people don't know much about the founding ideology of BLM. There is some evidence, BTW, that the pull-back of police, following these protests, does way more harm in terms of deaths (in the black community) than these anecdotal police killings.
I don't know any more about the founding ideology of BLM than I did about the civil rights movement in the '50s and '60s. It's not that I don't care, it's that it's of historical interest how it spread from radical sources into the mainstream, but can't possibly bear on the legitimacy of the cause.
Quote from: Dowder on July 26, 2020, 08:37:47 PM
Only black lives matter, killed by the police.
Such a bizarre interpretation couldn't be accepted by so many people. You imagine they are really marching for "my life doesn't matter as much as theirs".
You attribute motivations that don't make sense. If I marched it would be because "black lives matter, too", not "only police murders count" or "white lives don't matter at all". My motive would be plausible and not risible.
Quote from: drogulus on July 26, 2020, 07:26:34 PM
You said it. If white lives don't matter more they don't matter at all. Equality isn't good enough. However, even in Trumpist America it's not the kind of thing you're supposed to say, is it? The rejoinder is supposed to be "all lives matter", which is less harsh, if a bit less honest.
Why so black - white?
Within every race there is unequality.
I can't see why every black human must be always be less equal compared to a white human.
White people have just more benefits to develop themselves. That's a fact, because of unfair policies. Will not be easy to make them more fair, but I don't know why one should object to that.
Over the weekend, Portland finally had a protest shooting! Also, police found Molotov cocktails and multiple magazines of ammunition. No way Stumptown can let the Emerald City or Austin upstage it.
Quote from: greg on July 26, 2020, 02:56:25 PM
This sounds like the conservative stance only, though... you can be moderate and in support of such things like minimum wage increase, but also suspicious or skeptical of some things that BLM may be tied to (Marxism, for example)... there's still a middle ground here...
The question remains of this suspicion is justified. Could be not.
Also Marxism might be not that bad. Was Marx the idealist that would have favored the communist regimes? According to my poor knowledge I would argue not.
If Marxism and BLM holds a slave protest I would be against. It sometimes appears to be that of 'a slave revolt in morality' (like Nietzsche describes it).
I want to read Nail's book Marx in Motion. Interesting writer and I will see if I can agree with him.
My position furthermore is that of De Sousa Santos and Foucault, the latter who argues a 'race struggle' in his work 'Society must be defended' (meaning disqualifying and excluding racists in a nonracist way on justified grounds, to sum it up short). De Sousa Santos in his work 'The End of the Cognitive Empire' argues in favor of 'knowledges born in the struggle' (so race struggle) and pleads for cognitive justice, the case that different knowledges are
equally valid.
Quote from: drogulus on July 27, 2020, 05:14:36 AM
I don't know any more about the founding ideology of BLM than I did about the civil rights movement in the '50s and '60s. It's not that I don't care, it's that it's of historical interest how it spread from radical sources into the mainstream, but can't possibly bear on the legitimacy of the cause.
It's interesting that you don't think it matters. I think it matters very much. "I have a dream," for example, is still meaningful to me. What I see happening today is the antithesis of the 60s focus on human liberation. It's a crawl backwards.
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 06:24:20 AM
It's interesting that you don't think it matters. I think it matters very much. "I have a dream," for example, is still meaningful to me. What I see happening today is the antithesis of the 60s focus on human liberation. It's a crawl backwards.
It doesn't matter to the legitimacy of the cause that the guy standing next to MLK was a Communist. How could it? If racist practices are unjust do they become more acceptable if some who protest against them are communists? Is your internal compass so haywire that you could be influenced like that?
Look, if I can be a capitalist regardless of the dingbattish zealots who besmirch the brand on a daily basis, it should be possible for people to judge social problems independently of group identities and whatever phobias about them are in the atmosphere.
Quote from: Henk on July 27, 2020, 06:05:19 AM
The question remains of this suspicion is justified. Could be not.
Also Marxism might be not that bad. Was Marx the idealist that would have favored the communist regimes? According to my poor knowledge I would argue not.
If Marxism and BLM holds a slave protest I would be against. It sometimes appears to be that of 'a slave revolt in morality' (like Nietzsche describes it).
I want to read Nail's book Marx in Motion. Interesting writer and I will see if I can agree with him.
My position furthermore is that of De Sousa Santos and Foucault, the latter who argues a 'race struggle' in his work 'Society must be defended' (meaning disqualifying and excluding racists in a nonracist way on justified grounds, to sum it up short). De Sousa Santos in his work 'The End of the Cognitive Empire' argues in favor of 'knowledges born in the struggle' (so race struggle) and pleads for cognitive justice, the case that different knowledges are equally valid.
you can have all of it but don't expect people to go along. It's a fad just like Foucault, although probably better funded.
Quote from: drogulus on July 27, 2020, 06:36:17 AM
It doesn't matter to the legitimacy of the cause that the guy standing next to MLK was a Communist. How could it? If racist practices are unjust do they become more acceptable if some who protest against them are communists? Is your internal compass so haywire that you could be influenced like that?
Look, if I can be a capitalist regardless of the dingbattish zealots who besmirch the brand on a daily basis, it should be possible for people to judge social problems independently of group identities and whatever phobias about them are in the atmosphere.
Obviously we should all work to end racist practices. That's why I oppose wokeness and pay attention to the ideology behind it. Again, look at what prominent black (and white) critics are saying if you want to check yourself (not that it matters what their skin color is). I listed a few (like McWhorter). You can find their discussions on YouTube. Even if you disagree with them, I guarantee you won't be bored.
Burn It All Down?
The Senate Republicans who protected and enabled Trump have to be held accountable. (https://thebulwark.com/burn-it-all-down/)
I read a review of the book ('The End of the Cognitive Empire') that makes a familiar point that science, objectivity and neutral criteria for truth have to be overthrown for a particular social revolution. The example of Trumpist America comes to mind. Certainly Trumpist ideology rejects scientific imperialism, neutral criteria, objective knowledge, all the bad stuff. Fascists have done that ever since there were fascists. I'm not surprised at all that the illiberal on the left and right would have a common foe.
Quote from: Dowder on July 26, 2020, 08:37:47 PM
Only black lives matter, killed by the police. Not even black lives killed by other black lives matter unless you can link them to systemic racism, institutional racism, white supremacy, etc. I'm sure you'll be able to at some point.
Says the guy for whom the only problems which need addressing are: buttressing white privilege and a free press.
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 26, 2020, 03:28:23 PM
BLM addresses a systemic, institutional problem, not unrelated random events. How could you not get that? (That's a rhetorical question; I know exactly why you don't get it.)
I said not "addresses" but "protests." That is the difference with my point.
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 06:24:20 AM
It's interesting that you don't think it matters. I think it matters very much. "I have a dream," for example, is still meaningful to me. What I see happening today is the antithesis of the 60s focus on human liberation. It's a crawl backwards.
Exactly... give it some time, like I said, I can see a statue of MLK being taken down one day because he wasn't progressive enough.
Quote from: Herman on July 26, 2020, 05:08:09 PM
as ever you seem to be blissfully unaware how bigoted you are
'Sup, my bigot friend? 8)
Quote from: Henk on July 27, 2020, 06:05:19 AM
The question remains of this suspicion is justified. Could be not.
Also Marxism might be not that bad. Was Marx the idealist that would have favored the communist regimes? According to my poor knowledge I would argue not.
If Marxism and BLM holds a slave protest I would be against. It sometimes appears to be that of 'a slave revolt in morality' (like Nietzsche describes it).
I want to read Nail's book Marx in Motion. Interesting writer and I will see if I can agree with him.
My position furthermore is that of De Sousa Santos and Foucault, the latter who argues a 'race struggle' in his work 'Society must be defended' (meaning disqualifying and excluding racists in a nonracist way on justified grounds, to sum it up short). De Sousa Santos in his work 'The End of the Cognitive Empire' argues in favor of 'knowledges born in the struggle' (so race struggle) and pleads for cognitive justice, the case that different knowledges are equally valid.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "slave protest"? Never heard of that term. :)
Also I'm sort of using the term Marxism interchangeably with communism... I guess Marxism is more descriptive of an ideology while communism more about the actual system (at least that's my interpretation).
All of this stuff is unnecessary, btw. There is not such a struggle even nearly on the scale as in the past. There are problems here and there, sure, but it's the media wanting to capitalize off of rage (since enraging headlines are the most like to get your click, this has been proven in one study, also note the term "ragebait.") So in a society that mostly hates racism, pushing certain stories constantly that are blatantly racist situations while get them many clicks and views. News can't survive if nothing bad is going on.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2020, 06:54:00 AM
Burn It All Down?
The Senate Republicans who protected and enabled Trump have to be held accountable. (https://thebulwark.com/burn-it-all-down/)
"As George Will has said, Trump has been a "Vesuvius of mendacity," but the rot obviously runs much deeper than the president himself. Trump himself is a horror show, but the most horrific story of the last four years has been the complete surrender of the GOP to Trumpism, not just on policy but on everything. The party that once imagined itself to be about ideas became a cult of personality for one of the most deplorable personalities in political history.
This suggests that the dysfunction in the GOP was a pre-existing condition; and that bringing the party back to sanity won't be easy. As a matter of political hygiene, getting rid of the Orange God-King is necessary but far from sufficient.
The transactional nature of the Senate GOP's groveling surrender to Trump is straightforward: Simply ignore his awfulness and you will get things you want. That bargain required ignoring an ever-growing pile of awfulness. At some point the ignorance morphed into rationalization and ultimately active collaboration.
The political calculation was also uncomplicated: Breaking with Trump would be political suicide because it would bring nasty tweets and aggravate the base. Earlier this year, Senate Republicans decided to tie their fates inextricably to Trump, including "an apparent end to public disagreements for the next six months until the party is past the election."
Quote from: drogulus on July 27, 2020, 06:54:26 AM
I read a review of the book ('The End of the Cognitive Empire') that makes a familiar point that science, objectivity and neutral criteria for truth have to be overthrown for a particular social revolution. The example of Trumpist America comes to mind. Certainly Trumpist ideology rejects scientific imperialism, neutral criteria, objective knowledge, all the bad stuff. Fascists have done that ever since there were fascists. I'm not surprised at all that the illiberal on the left and right would have a common foe.
The difference is that Trump doesn't care for criteria for truth at all, whereas De Sousa Santos does.
Not all populations are the same. Different populations, different knowledges. And that doesn't mean there aren't fruitful crossovers, because there are.
Take also indigineous knowledge as an example. They lend much from Western science, without leading to the disintegration of their knowledges.
The one body of knowledge can exist besides the other. There isn't one truth. Assuming that leads to white supremacy and oppression and the devalueing of other people.
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 06:56:24 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by a "slave protest"? Never heard of that term. :)
Also I'm sort of using the term Marxism interchangeably with communism... I guess Marxism is more descriptive of an ideology while communism more about the actual system (at least that's my interpretation).
All of this stuff is unnecessary, btw. There is not such a struggle even nearly on the scale as in the past. There are problems here and there, sure, but it's the media wanting to capitalize off of rage (since enraging headlines are the most like to get your click, this has been proven in one study, also note the term "ragebait.") So in a society that mostly hates racism, pushing certain stories constantly that are blatantly racist situations while get them many clicks and views. News can't survive if nothing bad is going on.
Slave protest is, in my view, the weak, the sick undermining the strong and the current order. Take the case of Christianity against the Romans. Christianity took hold of peoples beliefs and the peoples were losing their appetite to work and to keep the order in place, in all kinds of professions. Centuries of decline and social unrest, with barbarians from the North having an easy task to conquer and plunder. All hierarchy vanished, the victory of the weak, the sick and the slaves. Or as Nietzsche writes rather 'sucked out' instead of a victory.
Marxism is rather a critique on an actual system imo and communism a dis-functioning ideal that have been put into practice nevertheless (Zappa mentioned no ownership a design failure).
I agree with your criticism on the media. Media is spectacle. You can read a fine analysis in Sloterdijk's book Stress and Freedom, if you like.
[Yet he finds time for golf, insulting political opponents and watching gobs of TV news? Perhaps he would rather not go to Yankee Stadium because he might not be able to throw the 60 feet and 6 inches from the mound to home plate (certainly the climb down the 10-inch mound is not as treacherous as the West Point ramp). Maybe he shied away because he would have found himself at an event where the players all "take a knee," which has been a regular and warmly received feature in the new and abbreviated season. Whatever the reason, in refusing to go, he is avoiding a place where he's likely to be confronted by those outside his bubble and be widely mocked.
Trump is not a courageous man, as we saw from his flight to the White House bunker during a Black Lives Matter demonstration (and before that, by his unwillingness to sit down with special counsel Robert S. Mueller III). He managed to get out of fighting in Vietnam five times, claiming "bone spurs" for one of them.
His new tactic, it appears, is to accept an invitation suggesting that he is welcome in America and then to cancel with a lame excuse. After the disastrous Tulsa rally in June, he promised to go to New Hampshire for another event. He begged off at the last minute, claiming bad weather. (It turned out to be a sunny day.) He'll be back, he promised! (Before or after he throws out a pitch at Yankee Stadium, do you think?)
Trump generally avoids TV interviews other than with Fox News. (After the debacle with Chris Wallace, he might have to further refine his list of acceptable questioners.) He is not courageous enough to leave the cozy confines of "state TV" for a grilling from independent-minded news interviewers. He sure appears to fear showing up where he cannot control the ground rules, determine the person he will sit down with and be confident he can avoid pesky questions. (Disclosure: I am an MSNBC contributor.)
That brings us to the presidential debates. Do we think he will show up to the three presidential debates set by the Commission on Presidential Debates? The moderators must be agreed to by both sides, and unless the Democrats want to consent to a Sean Hannity or a Tucker Carlson, they might just have difficulty coming up with someone mutually acceptable. Trump will likely avoid making a decision for as long as possible (as he did with Mueller), then claim it is "rigged" if he cannot bring himself to show up.]
Quote from: Henk on July 27, 2020, 07:15:14 AM
Slave protest is, in my view, the weak, the sick undermining the strong and the current order. Take the case of Christianity against the Romans. Christianity took hold of peoples beliefs and the peoples were losing their appetite to work and to keep the order in place, in all kinds of professions. Centuries of decline and social unrest, with barbarians from the North having an easy task to conquer and plunder. All hierarchy vanished, the victory of the weak, the sick and the slaves. Or as Nietzsche writes rather 'sucked out' instead of a victory.
Very interesting.
Quote from: Henk on July 27, 2020, 07:15:14 AM
Marxism is rather a critique on an actual system imo and communism a dis-functioning ideal that have been put into practice nevertheless (Zappa mentioned no ownership a design failure).
Huh, that's a good way of wording things, I like.
Personally, I'm for reform rather than revolution, so I'm not going to pretend like there aren't cracks in the system (the valid part of Marxism is actually critiquing the current system), but they need to be managed in an upfront, honest way, and reform is the way to go for that, it just requires some patience sometimes.
Revolution, mob rule, etc. might be the only method of change for third world country, but the US isn't third world, so we can do things in a more mature way, it's just that some people don't want to do so because they aren't mature at all. And most of all, they are super bored and feeling stuck in life, which is pretty much the most destructive state of mind possible.
Another...
https://thepostmillennial.com/black-trump-supporter-stabbed-in-portland-speaks-out
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 07:33:40 AM
Another...
https://thepostmillennial.com/black-trump-supporter-stabbed-in-portland-speaks-out
From the article:
Quote from: Mia Cathell...Antifa militant and convicted pedophile Blake David Hampe.
:laugh:
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 07:29:53 AM
Very interesting.
Huh, that's a good way of wording things, I like.
Personally, I'm for reform rather than revolution, so I'm not going to pretend like there aren't cracks in the system (the valid part of Marxism is actually critiquing the current system), but they need to be managed in an upfront, honest way, and reform is the way to go for that, it just requires some patience sometimes.
Revolution, mob rule, etc. might be the only method of change for third world country, but the US isn't third world, so we can do things in a more mature way, it's just that some people don't want to do so because they aren't mature at all. And most of all, they are super bored and feeling stuck in life, which is pretty much the most destructive state of mind possible.
I agree. I am also in favor of gradual reforms (equal treatment) or evolution rather than revolution.
To add:
There are currents in thought like 'universal basic income' (UBI) but also 'universal basic capital' (more progressive even), the success of it might be linked to that of BLM. There are reasons to be skeptical. But the current system is also far from perfect.
But I am not an economic and this field of study hasn't really my interest.
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 07:29:53 AM
Very interesting.
Also the Christians burned many books and libraries.
Only later copies of lost books were found by passionate book lovers who sought for them. Sometimes just one copy left of great books that now again can be purchased and read. Some found their way back through the Arabic world (Aristoteles, Plato for instance). But many works are lost forever.
That's really a crime of Christianity against civilization.
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 07:29:53 AM
Revolution, mob rule, etc. might be the only method of change for third world country, but the US isn't third world, so we can do things in a more mature way,
It's actually pretty close to third world. Just look at the death rate and declining age expectancy, Ballooning income inequality, and (easy) a president who says he will have to see if he respects the elections outcome.
And that's why societal problems aren't dealt with in a mature way either, just as in other third world countries
Quote from: Henk on July 27, 2020, 07:01:29 AM
The difference is that Trump doesn't care for criteria for truth at all, whereas De Sousa Santos does.
Not all populations are the same. Different populations, different knowledges. And that doesn't mean there aren't fruitful crossovers, because there are.
Take also indigineous knowledge as an example. They lend much from Western science, without leading to the disintegration of their knowledges.
The one body of knowledge can exist besides the other. There isn't one truth. Assuming that leads to white supremacy and oppression and the devalueing of other people.
What does caring for truth criteria in opposition to the "epistemology of the North" mean in practice? Do Embraer planes fly on a different knowledge base than Boeing? What different epistemology fights a pandemic in the Southern Hemisphere?
It's crap whether it comes from the left or right. We've been here before. It's condescending to say the least (I never stop at the least) to opine that indigenous people should have "their knowledge" cordoned off to protect them from the dreaded "neutral criteria".
Quote from: Herman on July 27, 2020, 08:14:37 AM
It's actually pretty close to third world. Just look at the death rate and declining age expectancy, Ballooning income inequality, and (easy) a president who says he will have to see if he respects the elections outcome.
And that's why societal problems aren't dealt with in a mature way either, just as in other third world countries
Dude... have you even been here? Or an actual third world country? Sure, there are areas that are really bad, probably pretty close, but as a whole I really doubt it. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many people from the third world coming here, if it was just barely better. Maybe if we had input from someone here in the US that is from a third world country? Every time I see the many Arab and African people that I live by, I think that surely they didn't come here for only a
small improvement in life quality...
Just looking at certain stats won't provide the big picture... they can be helpful but there's more factors than that.
Quote from: drogulus on July 27, 2020, 08:32:30 AM
What does caring for truth criteria in opposition to the "epistemology of the North" mean in practice? Do Embraer planes fly on a different knowledge base than Boeing? What different epistemology fights a pandemic in the Southern Hemisphere?
It's crap whether it comes from the left or right. We've been here before. It's condescending to say the least (I never stop at the least) to opine that indigenous people should have "their knowledge" cordoned off to protect them from the dreaded "neutral criteria".
The natural sciences are a different story than sociological sciences. Laws of nature are everywhere the same. But they still can have and apply knowledge we don't have and don't apply, for example on food and medicine.
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 06:56:24 AM
I said not "addresses" but "protests." That is the difference with my point.
Jeezus H, you've got to be kidding. They're addressing systemic problems through protests. Address as a verb. ::)
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 08:49:32 AMDude... have you even been here? Or an actual third world country?
If memory serves, he lived in the States for a while years ago. That's why he thinks he's an expert on the US.
By the way, the phrase "Third World" is passé. Real intellectuals moved on years ago. Even "developing nation" is kind of out of fashion.
There was one little thought I wanted to share on this thread.
So, I tend to lean a bit more into libertarian (as opposed to authoritarian) thinking... I feel like maximizing freedom is important. Too many rules in society makes it very hard to think or achieve any type of flow state, or accomplish anything significant.
However, I'm perfectly fine with masks being mandated. It's not a big deal.
But I just saw some people saying it's unacceptable... which I think is ridiculous. Most likely only libertarians would say that.
So what is the difference? I suspect that some people are very inflexible in their thinking, which is probably something that points toward lower IQ. They are unable or unwilling to counter their own beliefs, leading to rigid thinking. (It might also be autism at a higher IQ level? don't take that guess too seriously, only slowly learning about autism)...
This type of problem might be a bigger issue than right vs. left, or whatever vs. whatever. Just a thought.
Quote from: Todd on July 27, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
If memory serves, he lived in the States for a while years ago. That's why he thinks he's an expert on the US.
By the way, the phrase "Third World" is passé. Real intellectuals moved on years ago. Even "developing nation" is kind of out of fashion.
If there is some sort of official checklist of what determines first world and third world, then we can use that.
Otherwise, it's all pretty subjective, right?
Generally, the US doesn't seem as nice as Japan, but it's still not that bad, you can do much worse. I haven't visited a third world country, but I've seen enough video footage of rougher places in the world to determine than on average, it just doesn't seem nearly as bad..,
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 27, 2020, 09:14:40 AM
Jeezus H, you've got to be kidding. They're addressing systemic problems through protests. Address as a verb. ::)
Ok, I think I do see your point now.
I think my main issue is just with the name of BLM...
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 09:55:42 AMIf there is some sort of official checklist of what determines first world and third world, then we can use that.
It's legacy intellectualism from the Cold War. The terms are meaningless now.
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 08:49:32 AM
Dude... have you even been here?
I have lived in the US for five years, and visited often ever since.
I could ask if you have ever been outside your part of Texas, but why would I?
Quote from: Henk on July 27, 2020, 08:11:16 AM
Also the Christians burned many books and libraries.
That's mostly a myth. A lot of stuff was burned during the many wars, unrests etc. in the late Roman Empire and the following "migration period" but very little was burned on purpose. At some stages pagan temples and statues were destroyed
http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2009/05/agora-and-hypatia-hollywood-strikes.html
Quote
Only later copies of lost books were found by passionate book lovers who sought for them. Sometimes just one copy left of great books that now again can be purchased and read. Some found their way back through the Arabic world (Aristoteles, Plato for instance). But many works are lost forever.
Did you ever think about who cared for the books between the 4th and 7th centuries? Did they time-warp from the late Roman Empire to the Caliphate of Bagdad? And do you really think nothing got burned when the Arabic conquerors swept through about 2/3 of the mediterrean that had belonged to the Christian Roman Empire before?
A hundred more federales are on their way to Stumptown. Get ready for the gunfight at Terry Schrunk Plaza.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 27, 2020, 10:36:33 AM
Did you ever think about who cared for the books between the 4th and 7th centuries?
The best way to put it is, before printing (ca. 1500) books did not need to be destroyed, they disappeared all by themselves if somebody did not make a new copy of them. Those copies were usually made by monks.
Of most texts there were so few copies (exceptions are Virgil, Homer and a couple prose writers) that it took almost nothing for them to vanish.
in the Plague year 1347, Petrarch (famous story) visited the Verona library and discovered a lot of Cicero and also a super rare copy of Catullus' spectacular poetry. He copied the Catullus, and in the next twenty years the ms he had copied that poetry from disappeared never to be seen again...
Quote from: Henk on July 27, 2020, 09:07:13 AM
The natural sciences are a different story than sociological sciences. Laws of nature are everywhere the same. But they still can have and apply knowledge we don't have and don't apply, for example on food and medicine.
Sociology employs the same methodology everywhere. If its knowledge the means of determining it are the same. If you want to study a different culture than your own, you don't also study it differently. That applies to food and medicine. Different foods and medicines don't need a different epistemology.
I sometimes wonder how it is that advocates for such notions got to be so smart about other cultures using the tools they purport to reject, Western concepts from French theorists that have no basis in the indigenous cultures they are supposedly defending. Advocating for an imagined "other way of knowing" is about as Northern imperialist as you can get. Not that there's anything wrong with that!! It's just, you know, funny and ironic is all.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 06:56:24 AM
Exactly... give it some time, like I said, I can see a statue of MLK being taken down one day because he wasn't progressive enough.
A feminist FB friend wants to take down statues of Mandela because of his treatment of women. King didn't treat women that well either - nor had he a very enlightened view of their place.
They will come for him eventually. No one will be spared from this woke mania.
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 12:22:10 PM
A feminist FB friend wants to take down statues of Mandela because of his treatment of women. King didn't treat women that well either - nor had he a very enlightened view of their place.
They will come for him eventually. No one will be spared from this woke mania.
Yup, and the way out out is the way through, I always say when I'm always saying. I'm sure "they" will come for the woke-ists eventually. That's when I get my bird head god statue.
Quote from: drogulus on July 27, 2020, 12:38:27 PM
Yup, and the way out out is the way through, I always say when I'm always saying. I'm sure "they" will come for the woke-ists eventually. That's when I get my bird head god statue.
right. My feminist friend is ultra-woke. But when she comes for Mandela and King, she'll turn into a "Karen" in the blink of an eye.
Quote from: Herman on July 27, 2020, 10:10:41 AM
I have lived in the US for five years, and visited often ever since.
I could ask if you have ever been outside your part of Texas, but why would I?
I've only lived here a year... so only once.
Apart from that, yeah, I've been around to various towns and cities.
edit: I also think that certain things are going to be difficult to grasp for anyone who didn't grow up here, even from area to area that can be the case...
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 12:22:10 PM
A feminist FB friend wants to take down statues of Mandela because of his treatment of women. King didn't treat women that well either - nor had he a very enlightened view of their place.
They will come for him eventually. No one will be spared from this woke mania.
Lol. There's always something.
I wonder how much of this is people feeling guilty for their past beliefs or actions, and instead of cancelling themselves they cancel anyone that they have an excuse to cancel.
the point is not invalidated by fear of extremists.
Many Trumpsters are trying to provoke arguments in order to validate their view of the world. They know perfectly well that many of their observations are inaccurate.
One of them challenged my observation that most fundamentalists Christians voted for Trump. One can easily find polls which confirmed this. I refuse to believe that he was so clueless that he was unaware of it. He just wanted to provoke a fight. That is why I ignored his remarks.
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 02:05:16 PM
right. My feminist friend is ultra-woke. But when she comes for Mandela and King, she'll turn into a "Karen" in the blink of an eye.
Really? Certainly the phenomenon of liberals turning into NIMBYs when it comes to practical support of civil rights is a thing, but what issues does she have with King and Mandela, apart from their being very flawed human beings?
Is she a TERF as well?
Quote from: Daverz on July 27, 2020, 06:16:56 PM
Really? Certainly the phenomenon of liberals turning into NIMBYs when it comes to practical support of civil rights is a thing, but what issues does she have with King and Mandela, apart from their being very flawed human beings?
Is she a TERF as well?
absolutely anti-terf, "believe all women" feminist. I'd guess she's very pro-BLM too. But I had an exchange in comments talking about Mandela's treatment of women. It turns out Mandela was accused of abusing his first wife. But if she's gonna go there, it's only a hop over to King who was accused of getting physical with his mistress.
In my view, both Mandela and King were towering figures of the 20th century, flaws and all.
This is why cancel culture is so divisive. Social Media removes nuance and thoughtfulness and when you add physical destruction and mobs, you get a downward spiral.
Another friend of mine out in Portland was arguing that graffiti and fireworks aren't a big deal against 400 years of oppression. This is an argument for never-ending chaos. And if you're on the left, you can watch greedy billionaires chuckling and counting their money behind the scenes. You can also watch the destruction of the planet go unnoticed as protestors go dragging their leaf blowers from monument to courthouses.
Not that I approve of Tump's anti-democratic bullying tactics. But after tump is gone, what next?
Sorry. I rambled.
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 07:53:06 PM
absolutely anti-terf, "believe all women" feminist. I'd guess she's very pro-BLM too. But I had an exchange in comments talking about Mandela's treatment of women. It turns out Mandela was accused of abusing his first wife. But if she's gonna go there, it's only a hop over to King who was accused of getting physical with his mistress.
In my view, both Mandela and King were towering figures of the 20th century, flaws and all.
This is why cancel culture is so divisive. Social Media removes nuance and thoughtfulness and when you add physical destruction and mobs, you get a downward spiral.
Another friend of mine out in Portland was arguing that graffiti and fireworks aren't a big deal against 400 years of oppression. This is an argument for never-ending chaos. And if you're on the left, you can watch greedy billionaires chuckling and counting their money behind the scenes. You can also watch the destruction of the planet go unnoticed as protestors go dragging their leaf blowers from monument to courthouses.
Not that I approve of Tump's anti-democratic bullying tactics. But after tump is gone, what next?
Sorry. I rambled.
I don't see recognizing someone's considerable flaws as a complete rejection of all they accomplished. Thomas Jefferson kept his own children in slavery, for example. That needs to be recognized along with the accomplishments.
As for the graffiti and fireworks, I don't think that should be in the purview of DHS. In fact, I'd say DHS being out of control is a lot bigger problem. A huge problem.
Quote from: Daverz on July 27, 2020, 08:43:28 PM
I don't see recognizing someone's considerable flaws as a complete rejection of all they accomplished. Thomas Jefferson kept his own children in slavery, for example. That needs to be recognized along with the accomplishments.
As for the graffiti and fireworks, I don't think that should be in the purview of DHS. In fact, I'd say DHS being out of control is a lot bigger problem. A huge problem.
I kind of agree. What is the purpose here? It seems like its aim is to inflame. It seems obviously political - geared towards a re-election strategy a la Nixon. But I think it won't work politically. In the long term, it's a troubling policy roadmap to use the federal police against protests.
Quote from: greg on July 27, 2020, 03:30:55 PM
I've only lived here a year... so only once.
Apart from that, yeah, I've been around to various towns and cities.
edit: I also think that certain things are going to be difficult to grasp for anyone who didn't grow up here, even from area to area that can be the case...
You seem to have no problems whatsoever in telling black people how they should feel about getting shot routinely by cops, so one wonders how many years you have been a black person?
Or would you be willing to shut up and stop your patronizing superwhite comments about BLM?
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 12:22:10 PM
A feminist FB friend wants to take down statues of Mandela because of his treatment of women. King didn't treat women that well either - nor had he a very enlightened view of their place.
They will come for him eventually. No one will be spared from this woke mania.
So some statues get taken down. And we readjust our beliefs about some historical figures. I'm not losing any sleep over it.
An interesting article here:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/case-for-liberalism-tom-cotton-new-york-times-james-bennet.html (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/case-for-liberalism-tom-cotton-new-york-times-james-bennet.html)
The Still-Vital Case for Liberalism in a Radical Age
And a few quotes to get the gist:
David Shor is a 28-year-old political data analyst and social democrat who worked for President Obama's reelection campaign... tweeted out a short summary of a paper by Princeton professor Omar Wasow...
Post-MLK-assasination race riots reduced Democratic vote share in surrounding counties by 2%, which was enough to tip the
1968 election to Nixon. Non-violent protests increase Dem vote, mainly by encouraging warm elite discourse and media
coverage.
...in certain quarters of the left — though not among Democratic elected officials — criticizing violent protest tactics is considered improper on the grounds that it distracts from deeper underlying injustice, and shifts the blame from police and other malefactors onto their victims... And so, despite its superficially innocuous content, Shor's tweet generated a sharp response. To take one public example, Ari Trujillo Wesler, the founder of OpenField, a Democratic canvassing app, replied, "This take is tone deaf, removes responsibility for depressed turnout from the 68 Party, and reeks of anti-blackness"... Trujillo Wesler repeated the accusation of racism...
A few days later, Shor was fired...Over the weekend, "Progressphiles," a progressive data listserv, announced it was kicking Shor out... Since criticism of violent protests is racist, and racism obviously endangers black people, an act as seemingly innocuous as sharing credible research poses a threat to safety.
Etc. etc. etc.
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 07:53:06 PMAnother friend of mine out in Portland was arguing that graffiti and fireworks aren't a big deal against 400 years of oppression. This is an argument for never-ending chaos.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan already came up with the proper phrase: defining deviancy down. To the American Left and non-American fellow travelers, the actions on display right now are righteous, just, and moral. It is important to know that.
Quote from: Daverz on July 28, 2020, 01:24:44 AM
So some statues get taken down. And we readjust our beliefs about some historical figures. I'm not losing any sleep over it.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
History isn't being forgotten. It's being forgotten less. The Party that's always right is upset about this. Confederate family values were supposed to be eternal and unchanging. That's where history was supposed to stop.
Quote from: drogulus on July 28, 2020, 05:06:48 AM
History isn't being forgotten. It's being forgotten less. The Party that's always right is upset about this. Confederate family values were supposed to be eternal and unchanging. That's where history was supposed to stop.
Cryogenically frozen like Uncle Walt
Georgia Senator Is Criticized for Ad Enlarging Jewish Opponent's Nose (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/us/politics/jon-ossoff-david-perdue-ad.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage)
It was unintentional. It's typical of globalists to get upset about nothing. That's why you can't trust them.
Funny how none of the Trumpkins find bigotry a problem.
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2020, 11:01:07 PM
I kind of agree. What is the purpose here? It seems like its aim is to inflame. It seems obviously political - geared towards a re-election strategy a la Nixon. But I think it won't work politically. In the long term, it's a troubling policy roadmap to use the federal police against protests.
The problem, it's becoming clear, is that federal police forces beholden only to the executive branch with undefined jurisdiction and flexible and unrestricted rules of deployment and engagement should not exist. ICE and DHS should be abolished (or given only narrow and clearly defined authority) and border security personnel held to border areas. The Trump administration is an excellent stress test for the system and a guide to future legislative action.
The feds say they won't leave Portland until the violence stops. (https://news.yahoo.com/feds-wont-leave-portland-until-071500399.html)
Well yeah, sure, they can't very well be violent and leave all at once, can they?
Trump has placed his bet on amping up the violence to scare "housewives" into voting for him. I have doubts on this score, like......are there housewives? Are they vastly ignorant of what Trump is trying to do?
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 28, 2020, 06:26:03 AMThe problem, it's becoming clear, is that federal police forces beholden only to the executive branch with undefined jurisdiction and flexible and unrestricted rules of deployment and engagement should not exist.
Bundyesque. Cool.
Quote from: Herman on July 27, 2020, 11:40:39 PM
You seem to have no problems whatsoever in telling black people how they should feel about getting shot routinely by cops, so one wonders how many years you have been a black person?
1) Not saying how they should feel
2) routinely is an exaggeration... does it happen too much? yes... routinely? no
Quote from: Herman on July 27, 2020, 11:40:39 PM
Or would you be willing to shut up and stop your patronizing superwhite comments about BLM?
BLM organization is not equivalent to actual black people. Not every black person feels the same way about BLM, they aren't a monolith.
No idea what "superwhite" is...
A lot of incorrect negative assumptions here about me personally, because I dare to question some things, what's new. ::)
Greg, it may be due to factors other than "because [you] dare to question some things" ... the unexamined life, and all that.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2020, 11:29:17 AM
Greg, it may be due to factors other than "because [you] dare to question some things" ... the unexamined life, and all that.
Yeah, some people have the ability to read minds and hearts and know that I'm secretly racist/whatever-ist or something, even though I don't know it myself. It's an especially magical and awesome ability.
Goldman Warns the Dollar's Grip on Global Markets Might Be Over (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-28/goldman-warns-dollar-s-role-as-world-reserve-currency-is-at-risk)
I guess Goldman is long gold. Nah, that's cynical. The end is nigh. The Euro will have its moment in the sun soon! :laugh:
Biden's election will end national nightmare 2.0 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bidens-election-will-end-national-nightmare-20/2020/07/28/f9c01df0-d0f7-11ea-9038-af089b63ac21_story.html?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-a-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2020, 06:39:24 AM
Biden's election will end national nightmare 2.0 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bidens-election-will-end-national-nightmare-20/2020/07/28/f9c01df0-d0f7-11ea-9038-af089b63ac21_story.html?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-a-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Will has nothing worthwhile to say about when the nightmare will end. Election Day could be the beginning of a bigger nightmare. Trump has signaled as hard as he could what he wants to do. It's not just putting his people on the streets to do battle, it also includes putting the USPS under the control of a Trumpist who has already begun to slow mail delivery.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5trTkMJj/visitamerica915.png) (https://postimages.org/)
https://www.youtube.com/v/n7eZKaGW_B0
Trump's crackdown sputters as 'phased withdrawal' from Portland begins (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/29/trumps-crackdown-sputters-phased-withdrawal-portland-begins/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-a-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
It's kind of like Vietnamization back in the day.
Now what does he do? Send troops to post offices?
weak authoritarian death spiral
U.S. second-quarter GDP plunged by a record 32.9% [annualized], vs 34.7% expected (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/30/us-gdp-q2-2020-first-reading.html)
Bad news for Trump. Rejoice Dems and non-American fellow travelers!
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2020, 04:49:22 AM
U.S. second-quarter GDP plunged by a record 32.9% [annualized], vs 34.7% expected (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/30/us-gdp-q2-2020-first-reading.html)
Bad news for Trump. Rejoice Dems and non-American fellow travelers!
Really. Do you actually think most Dems are happy about this?
Quote from: arpeggio on July 30, 2020, 05:31:00 AM
Really. Do you actually think most Dems are happy about this?
Huggy bear's trolling; it's all he's got.
Man knifed in back at Portland protest: 'I was stabbed for being a conservative journalist'
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/man-knifed-in-back-at-portland-protest-i-was-stabbed-for-being-a-conservative-journalist.html
(https://www.oregonlive.com/resizer/lZ7cxacRbIVrESBKJkHrZSEBm08=/1280x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/FSCN63CDXJBMPHBCBNC3R4RFJ4.jpg)
Video of the stabbing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=RZVAGWG9Ei8&feature=emb_logo
Probably not a wise move to put your arm around somehow who is stalking you. But also less wise to stab people.
As predicted, Trump is 'floating' via tweet the idea of postponing the election, because it doesn't look good for him.
He probably prefers having elections after he can claim a vaccine.
Apparently, Trump doesn't know election law and the limits of presidential power. But then, informed people already knew that.
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
Man knifed in back at Portland protest: 'I was stabbed for being a conservative journalist'
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/man-knifed-in-back-at-portland-protest-i-was-stabbed-for-being-a-conservative-journalist.html
(https://www.oregonlive.com/resizer/lZ7cxacRbIVrESBKJkHrZSEBm08=/1280x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/FSCN63CDXJBMPHBCBNC3R4RFJ4.jpg)
Video of the stabbing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=RZVAGWG9Ei8&feature=emb_logo
Probably not a wise move to put your arm around somehow who is stalking you. But also less wise to stab people.
You can't be that naive, by which I mean of course you are. Did you look at the video you posted? Protesters held the stabber down until the police came and arrested him.
The guy who was yelling "Did you just stab him?" didn't seem happy that a conservative videographer was stabbed. Perhaps he didn't know, or he just didn't think he deserved to be stabbed.
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2020, 06:52:31 AM
Apparently, Trump doesn't know election law and the limits of presidential power. But then, informed people already knew that.
Just saw that about Trump's tweet on the BBC News -
"With Universal Mail-In Voting (not Absentee Voting, which is good), 2020 will be the most INACCURATE & FRAUDULENT Election in history. It will be a great embarrassment to the USA. Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???". At least you can stop arguing about who to vote for now.
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 30, 2020, 07:19:29 AM
At least you can stop arguing about who to vote for now.
I don't think anyone is.
Quote from: drogulus on July 30, 2020, 07:13:11 AM
You can't be that naive, by which I mean of course you are. Did you look at the video you posted? Protesters held the stabber down until the police came and arrested him.
The guy who was yelling "Did you just stab him?" didn't seem happy that a conservative videographer was stabbed. Perhaps he didn't know, or he just didn't think he deserved to be stabbed.
I don't know what you are talking about. I just shared the story and this is my only comment:
QuoteProbably not a wise move to put your arm around somehow who is stalking you. But also less wise to stab people.
I watched the video. He puts his arm around the guy who he says is following him... not a wise move. But then he gets stabbed. Stabbing people is bad.
Not sure what you're disagreeing with here. Also the stabber is about to face a prison sentence, apparently.
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2020, 06:52:31 AM
Apparently, Trump doesn't know election law and the limits of presidential power. But then, informed people already knew that.
Obviously, advisers have told him he can't do this.
However, what he can do, and has been doing for some time, is rile up the base, who need to get into the streets on election day and make voting impossible for people who don't want to fight or shoot their way to the voting booth.
That's why he's doing this.
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 08:00:57 AM
I don't know what you are talking about. I just shared the story and this is my only comment:
I watched the video. He puts his arm around the guy who he says is following him... not a wise move. But then he gets stabbed. Stabbing people is bad.
Not sure what you're disagreeing with here. Also the stabber is about to face a prison sentence, apparently.
You have consistently followed the line of critics of the protesters, including this video guy, who claims he was stabbed because he's a conservative journalist. You bolded his claim in your comment. If I wasn't familiar with your views I might think you weren't endorsing the idea of "antfifa stabbers".
I don't have a problem with the story. I don't discount the idea that he was being stalked by people who knew who he was.
Quote from: drogulus on July 30, 2020, 08:43:26 AM
You have consistently followed the line of critics of the protesters, including this video guy, who claims he was stabbed because he's a conservative journalist. You bolded his claim in your comment. If I wasn't familiar with your views I might think you weren't endorsing the idea of "antfifa stabbers".
I don't have a problem with the story. I don't discount the idea that he was being stalked by people who knew who he was.
I don't have a problem with protesters...
the protesters likely didn't know the guy so if they see someone getting stabbed then of course they will help them, just like anyone else would. Even if they did know him, the reasonable ones would help.
I think the people who held down the stabber until the police arrived were not concerned with how conservative the victim was. You see a guy stabbed and you react.
Quote from: Herman on July 30, 2020, 08:09:39 AMHowever, what he can do, and has been doing for some time, is rile up the base, who need to get into the streets on election day and make voting impossible for people who don't want to fight or shoot their way to the voting booth.
That's why he's doing this.
Reads like a summary for a novel.
Quote from: drogulus on July 30, 2020, 08:57:58 AM
I think the people who held down the stabber until the police arrived were not concerned with how conservative the victim was. You see a guy stabbed and you react.
Yes, for sure.
Quote from: drogulus on July 30, 2020, 08:43:26 AM
You have consistently followed the line of critics of the protesters,
Correct. But if you say that Greg's going to say you can't "read his mind".
Quote from: Herman on July 30, 2020, 09:16:46 AM
Correct. But if you say that Greg's going to say you can't "read his mind".
Oh, did I?
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 08:50:16 AM
I don't have a problem with protesters...
the protesters likely didn't know the guy so if they see someone getting stabbed then of course they will help them, just like anyone else would. Even if they did know him, the reasonable ones would help.
Quote from: Herman on July 30, 2020, 09:16:46 AM
Correct. But if you say that Greg's going to say you can't "read his mind".
I can't even make anything out of the charts! It's all golf to me.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
While looking for a review of a Thomas Friedman book I just bought I came across this op-ed he wrote a few days ago:
Friedman: Trump is starting a wag-the-dog war at home (https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/22/friedman-trumps-wag-the-dog-war/)
[...]"How did we get here? Well, when historians summarize the Trump team's approach to dealing with the coronavirus, it will take only a few paragraphs:
"They talked as if they were locking down like China. They acted as if they were going for herd immunity like Sweden. They prepared for neither. And they claimed to be superior to both. In the end, they got the worst of all worlds — uncontrolled viral spread and an unemployment catastrophe.
"So, in a desperate effort to salvage his campaign, Trump turned to the Middle East Dictator's Official Handbook and found just what he was looking for, the chapter titled, 'What to Do When Your People Turn Against You?'
"Answer: Turn them against each other and then present yourself as the only source of law and order."
America blessedly is not Syria, yet, but Trump is adopting the same broad approach that Bashar Assad did back in 2011, when peaceful protests broke out in the southern Syrian town of Dara'a, calling for democratic reforms; the protests then spread throughout the country.
Had Assad responded with even the mildest offer of more participatory politics, he would have been hailed as a savior by a majority of Syrians. One of their main chants during the demonstrations was, "Silmiya, silmiya" ("Peaceful, peaceful").
But Assad did not want to share power, and so he made sure that the protests were not peaceful. He had his soldiers open fire on and arrest nonviolent demonstrators, many of them Sunni Muslims.
Assad got exactly what he wanted — not a war between his dictatorship and his people peacefully asking to have their voices heard, but a war with Islamic radicals in which he could play the law-and-order president, backed by Russia and Iran. In the end, his country was destroyed and hundreds of thousands of Syrians were killed or forced to flee. But Assad stayed in power. Today, he is the top dog on a pile of rubble.
I have zero tolerance for any American protesters who resort to violence in any U.S. city, because it damages homes and businesses already hammered by the coronavirus — many of them minority-owned — and because violence will only turn off and repel the majority needed to drive change.
But when I heard Trump suggest, as he did in the Oval Office on Monday, that he was going to send federal forces into U.S. cities, where the local mayors have not invited him, the first word that popped into my head was "Syria."[...]
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 09:24:00 AM
Oh, did I?
Quote from: greg on July 28, 2020, 12:26:23 PM
Yeah, some people have the ability to read minds and hearts and know that I'm secretly racist/whatever-ist or something, even though I don't know it myself. It's an especially magical and awesome ability.
Really?
"If you say that-" I respond something.
Then you replace it with a response of mine to an entirely different post.
smh
If you don't get it, maybe you are a much more linear thinker. Maybe this will help.
Protests are good.
Many protesters are good.
Some protesters are bad.
Some protesters are rioters.
Some protesters do dumb stuff, like strip naked or try to take over the courthouse, etc.
Some people on the left are BLM.
Some protesters are BLM.
Some people on the left put politics before black lives (see the stories I mentioned- the stabbing and the likely reason for the murder)
Some parts of BLM I have heard are Marxist and are trying to gain power.
Actual "Marxists"? Or is that just a synonym for "scary left"?
Quote from: SimonNZ on July 30, 2020, 12:15:07 PM
Actual "Marxists"? Or is that just a synonym for "scary left"?
I think the main suspicion is from co-founder Patrisse Cullors saying "we are trained Marxists."
I'm using language like "suspicion" or "I have heard" because I am not an expert on the connection between the two. But it does seem very intersectionalist to have a negative reaction towards "All Lives Matter..." so to me it wouldn't be very surprising if there is a Marxist element in BLM.
Quote from: drogulus on July 27, 2020, 11:42:51 AM
Sociology employs the same methodology everywhere. If its knowledge the means of determining it are the same. If you want to study a different culture than your own, you don't also study it differently. That applies to food and medicine. Different foods and medicines don't need a different epistemology.
I sometimes wonder how it is that advocates for such notions got to be so smart about other cultures using the tools they purport to reject, Western concepts from French theorists that have no basis in the indigenous cultures they are supposedly defending. Advocating for an imagined "other way of knowing" is about as Northern imperialist as you can get. Not that there's anything wrong with that!! It's just, you know, funny and ironic is all. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)
That's the point of De Sousa Santos' book: different epistomologies, different methodologies, different pedagogies.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 27, 2020, 10:36:33 AM
That's mostly a myth. A lot of stuff was burned during the many wars, unrests etc. in the late Roman Empire and the following "migration period" but very little was burned on purpose. At some stages pagan temples and statues were destroyed
http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2009/05/agora-and-hypatia-hollywood-strikes.html
Did you ever think about who cared for the books between the 4th and 7th centuries? Did they time-warp from the late Roman Empire to the Caliphate of Bagdad? And do you really think nothing got burned when the Arabic conquerors swept through about 2/3 of the mediterrean that had belonged to the Christian Roman Empire before?
Two books about this book which discuss these topics in depth:
Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
https://www.amazon.nl/dp/1509816070/?coliid=ICWXI94JGCIJP&colid=3E23BJ1N83OUO&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.nl/dp/1509816070/?coliid=ICWXI94JGCIJP&colid=3E23BJ1N83OUO&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
The Map of Knowledge: How Classical Ideas Were Lost and Found: A History in Seven Cities
https://www.amazon.nl/Map-Knowledge-Classical-History-Cities/dp/1509829628/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_nl_NL=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=knowledge+cities&qid=1596145107&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.nl/Map-Knowledge-Classical-History-Cities/dp/1509829628/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_nl_NL=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=knowledge+cities&qid=1596145107&sr=8-1)
Quote from: Henk on July 30, 2020, 01:33:29 PM
That's the point of De Sousa Santos' book: different epistomologies, different methodologies, different pedagogies.
That's the point of what I said, the notion of different knowledges and epistemologies comes from the leisure of the Western academic theory class. There's nothing even faintly indigenous about it.
Quote from: Herman on July 30, 2020, 09:16:46 AM
Correct. But if you say that Greg's going to say you can't "read his mind".
I am apt to consider an inability to read Greg's mind a plus.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 30, 2020, 03:20:17 PM
I am apt to consider an inability to read Greg's mind a plus.
Critical thinking is not for everyone.
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 04:15:15 PM
Critical thinking is not for everyone.
Too easy to respond to:
It's trawling conspiracy theories that isn't for everyone. How 'bout them bats?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 30, 2020, 05:19:32 PM
Too easy to respond to:
It's trawling conspiracy theories that isn't for everyone. How 'bout them bats?
Um, the only conspiracy theory I believe is with Epstein. And most people believe that one.
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 04:15:15 PM
Critical thinking is not for everyone.
Usually when we talk about "critical thinking", we don't mean "critical" in the medical sense. It should involve healthy skepticism (not hyper-skepticism or motivated reasoning), a care not to fall into logical fallacies, and a willingness to accept criticism and invite correction.
(I should add that I didn't have anyone here in mind with that description, I was actually thinking about Sam Harris, particularly his exchanges with Ezra Klein.)
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 04:15:15 PM
Critical thinking is not for everyone.
"They say..."
"I heard..."
Quote from: Daverz on July 30, 2020, 05:40:02 PM
Usually when we talk about "critical thinking", we don't mean "critical" in the medical sense. It should involve healthy skepticism (not hyper-skepticism or motivated reasoning), a care not to fall into logical fallacies, and a willingness to accept criticism and invite correction.
(I should add that I didn't have anyone here in mind with that description, I was actually thinking about Sam Harris, particularly his exchanges with Ezra Klein.)
I'm fine with that. Some people on this thread definitely are not.
Quote from: Herman on July 30, 2020, 06:00:13 PM
"They say..."
"I heard..."
You can distinguish between a strongly held belief and a suspicion, right?
I can provide sources each time if you ask. Didn't realize I was doing a college essay, but if it really bothers you that much, then fine.
btw this whole acting like I'm dumb or something is really ridiculous... trying to personally discredit me if someone doesn't have a good argument to what I'm saying is not a good move. Being a gifted student and having top 2% IQ is not indicative of being dumb. It just means that if me and someone else have the same information, I'm more likely to come up with the correct conclusion (it's all just pattern recognition). And that's a large part of what political discussion is about. If you want to disprove something I'm saying, the best way to do that is provide new information that I haven't heard about that disproves my conclusion.
You have the best IQ?
"We argue that the Arctic is currently experiencing an abrupt climate change event, and that climate models underestimate this ongoing warming."
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-020-0860-7#Sec9 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-020-0860-7#Sec9)
Not exactly U.S. politics but I could ask whether the U.S. will show leadership in the coming years. At what point will "conservatives" stop denying and start conserving?
That is not going to happen.
Trump's 'Law-and-Order' Approach Falls Flat: Poll (https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-07-31/trumps-law-and-order-approach-falls-flat-poll)
Womp womp.
Earth people score poorly on the interplanetary critical thinking scale.
https://www.youtube.com/v/qro7oBzUBos
Surely there's a place in hell where Jim Jordan can spend aeons asking the same hi-speed question over and over again, wearing a tie.
Quote from: Herman on July 30, 2020, 07:41:53 PM
You have the best IQ?
Lol, I didn't say "best." I said it's well above average.
Anyways, I would like to politely recommend that you rethink your habit of making personal negative assumptions about people when they say something you don't like for whatever reason.
Like when I posted in the threads about what type of women people here like, you said something about me not being comfortably masculine based on what I like. I mean, seriously? ::) Same thing going on in this thread...
Trash talk just isn't my thing, I guess... I prefer not to take jabs at other people but if they are going to do that to me, then I'm going to do it back. Maybe just stop? If I comment on something you don't like but have no input on that thing, instead of saying something about me personally, maybe just don't say anything.
Productive discussions involve talking about the topic, not talking about each other.
Trump wussed out on Stumptown. OSP will be largely taking over for the federales. Crowds will gradually start to diminish until only the most die hard of unemployed losers are left protesting and vandalizing every night. They may not be the lead off story on the evening news, which may force me to stay up a few minutes longer before getting my dopamine fix from seeing lefties in distress. :(
Quote from: Dowder on July 31, 2020, 11:23:00 AM
Only November matters.
Looks like you may have missed the GDP numbers.
Liberal that I probably am, I find this good news:
Death penalty overturned for Boston Marathon bomber
Apropos of nothing...
The entry for January 24, 1998 in David Sedaris' diary has him listening to a call in show asking what the Clinton scandal should be named. While he hates the -gate suffix he still admires the suggestions of "fornigate" and "tailgate".
I am back folks.
As you have perhaps noticed, I haven't participated in US politics discussions for 2 months or so. I was given an admonition to not participate in US politics for a while. At first I was very angry about it, but I calmed down and went to music threads. I explored Atterberg, Englund, even some Klami and as a big revelation I discovered Haydn's Op. 20! 0:)
I have been given the permit to post here again so here I am, but I am not the same. My political views are the same, but I learned how my "freedom of speech" online is limited and perhaps even weaker than for those representing more moderate views. So, I hope to return here as someone wiser, someone who can comment on US politics without completely triggering other people. I can't help it if my opinions annoy you, but I can try to express them respectfully and in ways that make other people see my point.
Being detached from political discussions for 2 months (and boy have those 2 months been CRAZY in US politics! George Floyd happened around the time I was banned here.) I learned to follow US politics in a way that is less harmful to my mental state. I am kind of more passive and less passionate. I think I will post less here. I hope I can ignore personal attacks ("as an European you can't understand US politics!" etc.) and calmly write what I think while trying not to attack others. So, don't expect the same 71 dB you saw before my "hiatus."
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 04:05:32 AM
I am back folks.
As you have perhaps noticed, I haven't participated in US politics discussions for 2 months or so. I was given an admonition to not participate in US politics for a while. At first I was very angry about it, but I calmed down and went to music threads. I explored Atterberg, Englund, even some Klami and as a big revelation I discovered Haydn's Op. 20! 0:)
I have been given the permit to post here again so here I am, but I am not the same. My political views are the same, but I learned how my "freedom of speech" online is limited and perhaps even weaker than for those representing more moderate views. So, I hope to return here as someone wiser, someone who can comment on US politics without completely triggering other people. I can't help it if my opinions annoy you, but I can try to express them respectfully and in ways that make other people see my point.
Being detached from political discussions for 2 months (and boy have those 2 months been CRAZY in US politics! George Floyd happened around the time I was banned here.) I learned to follow US politics in a way that is less harmful to my mental state. I am kind of more passive and less passionate. I think I will post less here. I hope I can ignore personal attacks ("as an European you can't understand US politics!" etc.) and calmly write what I think while trying not to attack others. So, don't expect the same 71 dB you saw before my "hiatus."
Welcome! Good luck!
Quote from: greg on July 30, 2020, 06:30:53 PMBeing a gifted student and having top 2% IQ is not indicative of being dumb. It just means that if me and someone else have the same information, I'm more likely to come up with the correct conclusion (it's all just pattern recognition). And that's a large part of what political discussion is about. If you want to disprove something I'm saying, the best way to do that is provide new information that I haven't heard about that disproves my conclusion.
Looks like you have similar IQ score to me, but what I have learned is high IQ is not a quarantee of anything in politics *. How do we define "correct conclusions" ? Which patterns are we supposed to recognize? In US politics people can't even agree about the facts (everything is about "propaganda" and "hoaxes") let alone what a society is and what it's function and goals are. Does your conclusions lead to the goals you want to reach? If they do then you conclusions are correct, but we don't necessorily agree about the
goals. If you say 2+2=4 and I say 2+3=5, we have different answers, but we both did our math correctly. It's just that you think 2+2 is the math to do while I think 2+3 is to be calculated, because we have different goals. That's because our life experiences are totally different and we had totally different parents indocrinating us, we went different schools (in different countries!) so that we have ended up with differing views about what the goals of politics are and that leads to different conclusions.
_______________________________________________________
* The actor James Woods had near-perfect SAT scores, and an IQ of 184, but somehow his political views tend to be surprisingly moronic. Or how about this: Is it intelligent as an politician to take bribes and do the bidding of your donors? Is it stupid to turn down corporate donors and serve the regular people instead? How high IQ do you need to want the best for other people, or is politics just about serving yourself?
Trump walks back on election delay threat. :P
Biden is a huge favorite in this election unless:
1) Forthcoming debates with Trump expose too much of his cognitive decline. Trump will definitely exploit it.
2) Biden is peaking too early (now) in the polls.
3) Trump manages to outflank Biden from the left. That's not even difficult considering Biden is effectively a moderate Republican.
Biden's victory would end the four years long national tangerine nightmare, but it would not fix the bed that caused the nightmare in the first place. Biden has made it very clear (to his corporate donors) nothing will fundamentally change. The only possible win for the left during Biden's presidency could be the ban of death penalty. Otherwise it has been constant middle finger to the left (If "Copmala" Harris is the VP pick the left will not be any happier) and if you are a moderate you need to understand for the left voting for Biden takes swallowing your principles and pride in a serious way, but when it's the wannabe dictator as the other option even people like Kyle Kulinski say they might be FORCED to vote for Biden to protect the country and yes, Biden's picks for judges and supreme court justices wouldn't be as horrible as Trump's picks have been and we all know in how bad health Ruth Ginsburg is! :o
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 06:17:35 AM
Trump walks back on election delay threat. :P
Biden is a huge favorite in this election unless:
1) Forthcoming debates with Trump expose too much of his cognitive decline. Trump will definitely exploit it.
1B Forthcoming debates may also expose a lot of Trump's mental decline. I mean, in 2016 he was still able to say "No puppet, You're the puppet." I mean that's a bisyllable, twice. Will he manage to get that done in 2020?
What I'm really saying is you have adopted the GOP playbook, in which there's this constant talk about a hypothetical Biden mental decline, without mentioning that Trump can't hold a glass of water with one hand etc.
Trump isn't running against Biden any more. He's running against the election.
He's using the distinction between absentee votes and mail-in votes. In terms of the ability to get an accurate count there's no difference between requested absentee ballots and ballots sent to all registered voters. Repubs use both where both are available. Dems have been more likely to use early voting, but with the Rona they will be as reliant on the mail as Repubs.
Where the System May Break (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5uZz3kgup0YJ:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-2020-election-could-go-wrong/614842/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
I linked to the Google cache so mere mortals can read the article.
David Frum participated in tabletop exercises on the 2020 election.
The worst news is that, faced with presidential lawlessness, few of the participants at the Transition Integrity Project found effective responses. The courts offered only slow, weak, and unreliable remedies. Street protests were difficult to mobilize and often proved counterproductive. Republican elected officials cowered even in the face of the most outrageous Trump acts. Democratic elected officials lacked the tools and clout to make much difference. Many of the games turned on who made the first bold move. Time after time, that first mover was Trump.
And even in the scenarios in which Biden's team eventually won—that is, secured possession of the White House at noon on Inauguration Day, 2021—Team Trump by then had thoroughly poisoned the political system.
It diverted public resources to Trump personally.
It preemptively pardoned Trump associates and family members, and tried to pardon Trump himself from criminal charges including money laundering and tax evasion.
It intentionally tried to cause long-term economic damage so as to prevent early economic recovery—and boost Republican chances in the 2022 elections.
It destroyed, hid, or privatized public records.
It tried to sabotage the census to favor Republican redistricting after 2020.
It refused to cooperate with the incoming administration during the transition period, in ways that aggravated both the pandemic response and economic recovery.
I think any reasonably well informed person (I count 5 of them) would expect this result.
Quote from: drogulus on August 01, 2020, 06:54:46 AM
It preemptively pardoned Trump associates and family members, and tried to pardon Trump himself from criminal charges including money laundering and tax evasion.
Consider this a given. People who dream of seeing the Trump clan winding up in jail are going to be disappointed.
Quote from: Herman on August 01, 2020, 06:45:18 AM
Forthcoming debates may also expose a lot of Trump's mental decline. I mean, in 2016 he was still able to say "No puppet, You're the puppet." I mean that's a bisyllable, twice. Will he manage to get that done in 2020?
Yes, but
his supporters may not care about it as much... ...we are talking about someone who said the noise from wind mills cause cancer and injecting bleach to your body might be a cure for coronavirus and still being a viable candidate in the election. To his supporters he can suffer from mental decline, because he said he is a very stable genius and even passed cognitive test being able to recognize animals and count downward from 100 by steps of seven!
Quote from: Herman on August 01, 2020, 07:00:12 AM
Consider this a given. People who dream of seeing the Trump clan winding up in jail are going to be disappointed.
I think it's more like Trump will do great damage by trying to do what he'll do, but that ultimately he won't succeed.
Trump is still a terrible negotiator. He wants to escape the WH with his loot and a get out of jail card, which he hopes to obtain by threatening maximum damage to the country if he doesn't get it. The problem is he has no Deep State counterpart to make a binding deal of any kind. That Deep State doesn't exist.The only deal he could get is with the new administration.
What deal would Biden offer?
(https://i.imgur.com/WygklGY.jpg)
Here's my offer......
Trump could end up giving us President Pelosi on an interim basis. If there's still no decision on the winner when Jan. 20 rolls around the whole government will recognize her authority and there's nothing Trump can do about it. His term ends on that day.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 04:05:32 AM
I hope I can ignore personal attacks ("as an European you can't understand US politics!" etc.) and calmly write what I think while trying not to attack others.
Nonsense. Many Non-Americans have a better understanding of US politics than many Americans. I just hope you realize that not all of us are crazy.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 01, 2020, 08:26:54 AM
Nonsense. Many Non-Americans have a better understanding of US politics than many Americans. I just hope you realize that not all of us are crazy.
People in other countries have good reasons to be well informed about US politics. The US affects people all over the world for better or worse.
On occasion I've watched the CNN international coverage of events in the US and it's not substantially different than what you'd get from domestic outlets here. Also it should be clear that some of the seemingly unique forms of American nuttery can be found among the "let's not call it what it is" political sects all over the world. TrumPutinism is about as far from being uniquely American as anything could be.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 01, 2020, 08:26:54 AM
Nonsense. Many Non-Americans have a better understanding of US politics than many Americans. I just hope you realize that not all of us are crazy.
I was preferring to what
some members here have said to us non-American posters including me and never have I implied ALL Americans are crazy. About 25 % of Americans are "too far gones" and the rest 75 % is a mixture of more or less ignorant/missled people and those who know/understand US politics very well. I see a lot of good informed posts from American posters here often agreeing so much I don't even need to comment on them. :)
Made-up statistics are the best statistics. 87.2% of people know that.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 09:12:09 AM
I was preferring to what some members here have said to us non-American posters including me and never have I implied ALL Americans are crazy. About 25 % of Americans are "too far gones" and the rest 75 % is a mixture of more or less ignorant/missled people and those who know/understand US politics very well. I see a lot of good informed posts from American posters here often agreeing so much I don't even need to comment on them. :)
Welcome back, I think.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif) Your 25% figure is awfully low. I think you made it up.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 04:05:32 AM
I am back folks.
LOL it's a morbidly interesting thread in terms of watching a civilisation tear itself apart but I don't know if there are any solutions. Stay sane :-\.
Quote from: drogulus on August 01, 2020, 08:51:04 AM
People in other countries have good reasons to be well informed about US politics. The US affects people all over the world for better or worse.
True, but for
me it was about wanting to understand how Trump was able to win the 2016 election. It was a wake-up call for me. I didn't understand US politics all that well and it turned out I had been somewhat ignorant. My biggest mistake was to assume the Dems must be "the good guys" since the Reps. are the "bad guys." and not understanding how utterly corrupt the US political system is.
Quote from: drogulus on August 01, 2020, 08:51:04 AMOn occasion I've watched the CNN international coverage of events in the US and it's not substantially different than what you'd get from domestic outlets here
I have never watched CNN international (it's not "free") and my source before Trump won used to be Finnish broadcasting company YLE. They don't "smear", but their coverage of US politics is pretty limited, naive/simplistic and "delayed". When they finally say something, I have known it for weeks or even months thanks to following the American independent lefty outlets and they never address the corruption in the US.
Quote from: drogulus on August 01, 2020, 09:45:37 AM
Welcome back, I think. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Your 25% figure is awfully low. I think you made it up.
Thanks!
Well, it's difficult to draw the line of who is too far gone and who isn't. How far gone must you be? My 25 % figure is my mental picture of the US population and how 1/4 of it seems to be detached from reality. Maybe it's 27.2 % Maybe it's even 31.1 % Who cares? My mental image is still pretty accurate... ...some say 1/3 of Americans have lost it, put I try to be generous to Americans and say "only" 1/4 are TFGs.
Quote from: Todd on August 01, 2020, 09:34:56 AM
Made-up statistics are the best statistics. 87.2% of people know that.
Would you prefer
"A portion of Americans are too far gones, but I don't give any estimate, because I don't want to use make-up statistics."?
The Lincoln Project's ads are getting surreal. Here's a new one: Impotus Americanus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x1-CVsoEBU
Quote from: steve ridgway on August 01, 2020, 09:48:44 AM
Stay sane :-\.
Well, I have
Haydn's
Op. 20 for sanity-restoring escapism... 0:)
Now my escapism is snooker: Mark Williams vs Alan McManus.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 10:07:11 AM
Thanks!
Well, it's difficult to draw the line of who is too far gone and who isn't. How far gone must you be? My 25 % figure is my mental picture of the US population and how 1/4 of it seems to be detached from reality. Maybe it's 27.2 % Maybe it's even 31.1 % Who cares? My mental image is still pretty accurate... ...some say 1/3 of Americans have lost it, put I try to be generous to Americans and say "only" 1/4 are TFGs.
In theory it's easy. Find a poll that tracks the percentage of voters who strongly approve of Trump, then add the percentage of hard core leftists who think there is no difference between Biden and Trump. You have the answer.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 09:58:33 AM
When they finally say something, I have known it for weeks or even months thanks to following the American independent lefty outlets and they never address the corruption in the US.
Maybe it's different over there. I've always found it perfectly easy to adopt fringe-y views from a solid mainstream base of news-gatherers. You go where the information is densest and do your own processing. Where do you think most of the fringe information comes from anyway? If you want to know what the mainsteam "is not telling you" you have to find it in the mainstream, because that's where true stuff is reported. I reject with maximum severity the notion that one must form heterodoxical views (or any doxical) on a diet of high dudgeon, low information sources.
Quote from: steve ridgway on August 01, 2020, 09:48:44 AM
LOL it's a morbidly interesting thread in terms of watching a civilisation tear itself apart but I don't know if there are any solutions. Stay sane :-\.
+ 1
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 04:05:32 AM
. So, don't expect the same 71 dB you saw before my "hiatus."
But straight out of the gate you're running through all your greatest hits.
No Bernie yet....
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 04:53:28 AM
Looks like you have similar IQ score to me, but what I have learned is high IQ is not a quarantee of anything in politics *. How do we define "correct conclusions" ? Which patterns are we supposed to recognize? In US politics people can't even agree about the facts (everything is about "propaganda" and "hoaxes") let alone what a society is and what it's function and goals are. Does your conclusions lead to the goals you want to reach? If they do then you conclusions are correct, but we don't necessorily agree about the goals. If you say 2+2=4 and I say 2+3=5, we have different answers, but we both did our math correctly. It's just that you think 2+2 is the math to do while I think 2+3 is to be calculated, because we have different goals. That's because our life experiences are totally different and we had totally different parents indocrinating us, we went different schools (in different countries!) so that we have ended up with differing views about what the goals of politics are and that leads to different conclusions.
_______________________________________________________
* The actor James Woods had near-perfect SAT scores, and an IQ of 184, but somehow his political views tend to be surprisingly moronic. Or how about this: Is it intelligent as an politician to take bribes and do the bidding of your donors? Is it stupid to turn down corporate donors and serve the regular people instead? How high IQ do you need to want the best for other people, or is politics just about serving yourself?
A lot of questions here, pretty good ones IMO.
* The actor James Woods had near-perfect SAT scores, and an IQ of 184, but somehow his political views tend to be surprisingly moronic. Or how about this: Is it intelligent as an politician to take bribes and do the bidding of your donors? Is it stupid to turn down corporate donors and serve the regular people instead? How high IQ do you need to want the best for other people, or is politics just about serving yourself? Seems to be a morality issue more than anything.
For the actor, the thing is, I've also wondered why really smart people believe really dumb things sometimes... it may be the perspective of choosing to approach politics or religion 80%+ from the heart, and only 20% from the brain.
That's great for creative things, like writing music- I take that approach, of course. But for politics, to me it's about finding truth, so it's reversed- more like 80% brain and 20% heart. Perhaps even that is unbalanced. Maybe it should be 50/50?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 04:53:28 AM
Looks like you have similar IQ score to me, but what I have learned is high IQ is not a quarantee of anything in politics *. How do we define "correct conclusions" ? Which patterns are we supposed to recognize? In US politics people can't even agree about the facts (everything is about "propaganda" and "hoaxes") let alone what a society is and what it's function and goals are. Does your conclusions lead to the goals you want to reach?
For conclusions/patterns, to me it's about whatever is proposed... like recognizing if a new idea sounds good on paper but in practice would be destructive.
I think there could be some element of basic needs that 99% of the population would agree on, because it's basic survival stuff. And recognizing what would support that or not is important. Sometimes the road to certain things are not so straightforward...
Correct conclusions mostly will be found out afterwards, when it's all said and done, and society is either better off or burned to ground. ;D
Quote from: JBS on August 01, 2020, 10:26:36 AM
In theory it's easy. Find a poll that tracks the percentage of voters who strongly approve of Trump, then add the percentage of hard core leftists who think there is no difference between Biden and Trump. You have the answer.
Hardly anyone on the left says there is
no difference between Biden and Trump, but there are plenty of people who are unwilling to vote for either of them. On many things Biden and Trump are practically the same. For example legalizing marihuana. Both are against it so practically the same. Both are against medicare for all (Trump used to be for medicare for all in the past long before running for president but the insurance companies have put him in check). Or how about wars overseas? In fact Trump is perhaps
more likely to withdraw troops home so in this particular aspect Trump might be actually better than Biden, but then again there's more things were Biden is better than Trump so that Biden is the lesser of the two evils for the left.
If you think the left is so small minority you can ignore it then IGNORE it and stop crying about a portion of the left not voting for Biden. If you think the left is so large of the group to make a difference in elections maybe you should start listening to the left and what lefties want? Give something. Then you can expect lefties to support you. Biden is expecting the support of the left while giving almost nothing to vote for. The left is sick and tired of the "Vote for me because I am less shitty than the other dude" game.
This one is too good. But if someone has a problem with the message, don't start attacking me.
When Wokes and Racists Actually Agree on Everything
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg
Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Hardly anyone on the left says there is no difference between Biden and Trump, but there are plenty of people who are unwilling to vote for either of them. On many things Biden and Trump are practically the same. For example legalizing marihuana. Both are against it so practically the same. Both are against medicare for all (Trump used to be for medicare for all in the past long before running for president but the insurance companies have put him in check). Or how about wars overseas? In fact Trump is perhaps more likely to withdraw troops home so in this particular aspect Trump might be actually better than Biden, but then again there's more things were Biden is better than Trump so that Biden is the lesser of the two evils for the left.
If you think the left is so small minority you can ignore it then IGNORE it and stop crying about a portion of the left not voting for Biden. If you think the left is so large of the group to make a difference in elections maybe you should start listening to the left and what lefties want? Give something. Then you can expect lefties to support you. Biden is expecting the support of the left while giving almost nothing to vote for. The left is sick and tired of the "Vote for me because I am less shitty than the other dude" game.
I've seen a few people on Twitter who express on Twitter the sentiment I referred to, including (just today) one guy who said Biden is "hard right". I don't know how widespread that is, which is why I made no attempt to say how many adhere to it. But I do think it is proper to point out the delusions the Left is prone to, and their inability to accept anything other than total compliance with their demands.
As one chap tweeted: "Joe Biden is an intelligent, competent & humane leader. When the rest of the world sees American liberals tweeting that Joe Biden isn't exciting, we look at you as if there's a plane on its way to rescue you from a warzone and you're complaining there won't be wine on the flight."
https://www.youtube.com/v/nhscswJudYM
https://www.youtube.com/v/Y1a_yModrSQ
I recognize some of these characters ....
https://www.youtube.com/v/4TogbPPyQQM
Quote from: JBS on August 01, 2020, 02:06:57 PM
I've seen a few people on Twitter who express on Twitter the sentiment I referred to, including (just today) one guy who said Biden is "hard right". I don't know how widespread that is, which is why I made no attempt to say how many adhere to it. But I do think it is proper to point out the delusions the Left is prone to, and their inability to accept anything other than total compliance with their demands.
Biden is pretty "right wing". By all means list his "left wing" ideas. I mentioned one: Banning death penalty, but that's pretty much it. If you have more I am all ears. The left can accept compromises, but there aren't any!
Medicare for all? NO!
How about "free" education? NO!
How about legalizing marihuana? NO!
How about ending wars? NO!
How about cutting military budget by 10 %? NO!
How about UBI for the duration of the coronavirus? NO!
Corporates are the ones who don't accept anything other than total compliance with their demands of the keeping status quo.
Hate to say it, but you could've written this three months ago....
Quote from: Herman on August 02, 2020, 12:49:30 AM
Hate to say it, but you could've written this three months ago....
What did you expect? My opinions are the same. What is different is my attitude. I don't attack others, call people idiots etc.
I've no idea who Heinrich Schenker is but apparently he cannot be discussed in Texas. I wonder why Wagner gets a pass. I say we shut down The Ring. Who's with me?
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/at-the-university-of-north-texas-the-mob-comes-calling-for-a-music-theorist/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/at-the-university-of-north-texas-the-mob-comes-calling-for-a-music-theorist/)
At the University of North Texas, the Mob Comes Calling for a Music Theorist
You might think music theory is an academic area that's safe from the illiberal mob, but a University of North Texas professor has learned otherwise.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 01, 2020, 04:20:45 PM
As one chap tweeted: "Joe Biden is an intelligent, competent & humane leader. When the rest of the world sees American liberals tweeting that Joe Biden isn't exciting, we look at you as if there's a plane on its way to rescue you from a warzone and you're complaining there won't be wine on the flight."
I like it! :)
Quote from: JBS on August 01, 2020, 02:06:57 PM
I've seen a few people on Twitter who express on Twitter the sentiment I referred to, including (just today) one guy who said Biden is "hard right". I don't know how widespread that is, which is why I made no attempt to say how many adhere to it. But I do think it is proper to point out the delusions the Left is prone to, and their inability to accept anything other than total compliance with their demands.
What compliance has the left seen? Did Biden/DNC/Pelosi promise tuition free education? Biden has spoken for fighting the climate change, but then again he has not listed concrete actions so the left is sceptic as it might all be just word salad forgotten after the election. The left has been marginalized and ignored for decades while the oligarchs have been running the show. Maybe it's okay to you, but it's not okay to the left, not at all!
What the left is asking are not always "demands", but rather stuff that are mundane in other countries. Only in the sick oligarchy of the US is the idea of everyone having healthcare as a human right a "demand." Elsewhere it's a basic ingredient of a functioning society. The left want's to save capitalism by replacing corporate socialism with social democracy. In that sense the left cares about capitalism more than those who rather maintain status quo.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 01, 2020, 04:20:45 PM
As one chap tweeted: "Joe Biden is an intelligent, competent & humane leader. When the rest of the world sees American liberals tweeting that Joe Biden isn't exciting, we look at you as if there's a plane on its way to rescue you from a warzone and you're complaining there won't be wine on the flight."
Given Biden's political record on wars (it seems Biden is a bigger warhawk than Trump) it's hard to see him as a
humane leader. Maybe he looks like a humane leader thanks to his "uncle Joe" -type warm charisma, but how you vote and govern is what matters and that's not pretty in case of Biden.
It's not about having wine on the rescue flight. It's about to
where are you rescued to? To home or just to a less deathly warzone?
GOP: Renomination of Trump to be held in private (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/gop-renomination-of-trump-to-be-held-in-private/2020/08/01/7c5445be-d456-11ea-826b-cc394d824e35_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_gop-convention-830am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
No press. Lotsa hookers.
Could Democrats get rid of the filibuster next year? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/07/31/senate-democrats-filibuster/)
Quote from: Barack ObamaIf all this takes eliminating the filibuster, another Jim Crow relic to secure the God-given rights of every American, then that's what we should do.
Dems nuked the filibuster for federal judges. They have regretted it since. I say Dems go ahead and kill the filibuster altogether. Then, when Republicans control both houses of Congress and the Presidency again - which they will - they will be able to lay waste to any Democrat laws and institutions with ease. Be still my beating heart. Thanks for the nudge, Barry!
What is disheartening is dealing with cynics who carry on that because liberals are flawed and make mistakes that somehow we do not have the right to criticize Trump.
The last perfect person that I know of got nailed to a cross.
Another one for Todd, since it's a continuation of from before. This is some hilariously silly stuff:
Trump-loving grandma outs Portland 'bomber' to feds — and it's her own grandson
https://nypost.com/2020/08/01/trump-loving-grandma-outs-her-own-grandson-as-portland-bomber/
tl;dr:
So in the naked Athena photo shoot, there is this one guy who awkwardly white knights by standing by her with a shield.
His grandma leaves a review on the clothing site Hibbet saying she purchased the vest that he is wearing in photos for him. Then she goes on Twitter talking about it (her name there is "Trumps Girl 2020" lol)
He is in trouble now for throwing a bomb at the courthouse (see video), but claims someone handed it to him and lied that it was actually something else.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 02, 2020, 02:47:12 AM
Maybe it's okay to you, but it's not okay to the left, not at all!
It won't be long before people are going to remind you that these are not elections you actually take part in.
Quote from: greg on August 02, 2020, 08:30:10 AMAnother one for Todd, since it's a continuation of from before.
Alas, the past few nights have been pretty quiet. Some of the thugs who engaged in violence previously definitely need to be prosecuted. I'm thinking domestic terrorism charges look suitable for some. That would have the added benefit of leading to more outrage and possibly protests, thus potentially establishing a virtuous circle of lefty distress.
Quote from: Todd on August 02, 2020, 10:32:29 AM
Alas, the past few nights have been pretty quiet. Some of the thugs who engaged in violence previously definitely need to be prosecuted. I'm thinking domestic terrorism charges look suitable for some. That would have the added benefit of leading to more outrage and possibly protests, thus potentially establishing a virtuous circle of lefty distress.
Yeah, it's a real shame when fascist thugs fail to sustain chaos. Guess it's back to Netflix. Sigh.
Huggy Bear's really only disappointed when there's no police brutality.
Quote from: Herman on August 02, 2020, 10:00:05 AM
It won't be long before people are going to remind you that these are not elections you actually take part in.
1) I am talking about the left in the US. They can take part in the election.
2) Not being able to vote doesn't mean one doesn't have opinions.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 02, 2020, 12:27:47 PM
Not being able to vote doesn't mean one doesn't have opinions.
Sure.
Keep in mind, though, and germane to Biden supposedly being insufficiently Left, that there is nothing like consensus in the U.S. that M4a is the way to reform US health care.
Remember, too, that earlier you were skeptical that there is a "middle" to whom a Democratic nominee might address himself. The increasing ranks of the Republican Voters Against Trump and Biden Republicans says otherwise.
I'm guessing Super-Creepy 46 has no time for a Karen, either.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qGd6HgB/legacy-small-3-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
But what are they praying for? What could that group of people all agree upon?
I'll wager that's one of the "artist's" worst-selling works: the kind of people who want to hang that stuff on their wall don't want to be looking at darkies, would consider it PC inclusiveness.
Quote from: geralmar on August 02, 2020, 03:21:14 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qGd6HgB/legacy-small-3-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
OMG, is that Andrew Breitbart on the far left. And who is that on the rear at far right? It looks like James O'Keefe!
I like the touch of having the traitor in defence of slavery Robert E. Lee right behind Lincoln.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 02, 2020, 04:26:23 PM
But what are they praying for? What could that group of people all agree upon?
I'll wager that's one of the "artist's" worst-selling works: the kind of people who want to hang that stuff on their wall don't want to be looking at darkies, would consider it PC inclusiveness.
Wags on Twitter have suggested they are trying to arrest him or trying to exorcise him.
But of the three blacks, Douglass and Tubman have been adopted by the Right as acceptable models. Especially Tubman in her capacity of gun toting chief of the Underground Railroad. And you will notice King is almost hidden in the background, and seems to be in a private praying group with Robert E Lee(!) and Franklin Graham. [I think that's who that person is. There are a few people I don't recognize such as the lady next to Tubman and the man half out of the picture at the extreme left.]
[And as I was about to post Daverz supplies the names.]
Quote from: geralmar on August 02, 2020, 03:21:14 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qGd6HgB/legacy-small-3-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
They're trying to stop him from eating the Declaration of Independence.
Quote from: geralmar on August 02, 2020, 03:21:14 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qGd6HgB/legacy-small-3-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Oh, ok, so they pray before throwing off all of their clothes and have a big orgy together.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 02, 2020, 12:48:33 PM
Sure.
Keep in mind, though, and germane to Biden supposedly being insufficiently Left, that there is nothing like consensus in the U.S. that M4a is the way to reform US health care.
Remember, too, that earlier you were skeptical that there is a "middle" to whom a Democratic nominee might address himself. The increasing ranks of the Republican Voters Against Trump and Biden Republicans says otherwise.
The real problem is the US two party system that never allows a real left-wing candidate to win presidency. Who is the left supposed to vote for? What would the right-wingers say if the two candidates for president were Bernie Sanders and Jesse Ventura? They would lose their minds! For the left it's always like this.
The insurance companies and Big Pharma spend millions on their propaganda to make sure there is no consensus. If the current system was so wonderful to people why would they need to spend money defending it? Wouldn't it be better to spend millions to give more people care?
I suppose many Republican politicians never liked Trump, but they love power and money so they have defended Trump, but too much is too much... ...while the Republican voters have seen how incompetent Trump is. Trump is losing and the rats are abandoning the sinking ship.
Maybe it was not such a great idea to start posting here again.
Quote from: Herman on August 03, 2020, 03:07:24 AM
Maybe it was not such a great idea to start posting here again.
I suppose my posts
look the same to you, but so far I have kept my cool and peace of mind thanks to doing this with refined attitude. Before my hiatus I used to get extremely angry out of utter frustration, but now I am calm commenting things like if they happened in a movie* and if that changes, I will go away again to protect my peace of mind. I pretty much ignore Dowder and Todd and consider their political posts "verbal noise." I'm sure they think the exact same thing about my posts so maybe it's better to not bother each other?
Is it a great idea for anyone of us to post here? Hypocritical?
* It's not my country, but a country thousands of miles away. Scaled to the population of my country the current Covid-19 death toll of the US would be about 2500, but the death toll in my country is 329 last time I checked. In my country most of the deaths happened in the beginning (211 deaths in March - April) of the corona crisis due to the society not being able to handle a crisis of this magnitude properly (yes, in my country mistakes were made, but we tried to learn fast) and now the death toll counter has almost stopped. Meanwhile in the US the deaths are unfortunately in the rise as the virus is speading like wildfire in some of the States. It looks like Covid-19 will collect no less than 200.000 to 250.000 victims in the US. When the vaccine finally arrives to save the day, there's tons of anti-vaxxers in the US to diminish the effect. In my country everyone has healthcare. In the US millions people have lost their employer-tied healthcare coverage. People might have "access" to healthcare, but can they affort it? In the crisis the lack of social safety nets show it's ugly face. Millions of people are unable to pay their rent after spending the $1200 they possibly got in 7 and a half minutes. The US will witness an eviction crisis nobody has seen before. If you think the BLM protests have been bad just wait for what's coming, because you have seen nothing yet! The situation in the US has gotten so crazy it's difficult to believe to be true and taking it as a "catastrophe movie" is easy.
Comparing small, weak, geopolitically irrelevant countries to the most powerful nation state to exist under the Westphalian system is a natural behavior of the envious.
I do wonder, though, when very learned sorts, who have mastered the political, legal, historical, and cultural intricacies of countries they do not live in will turn their unparalleled analytical acumen to "discussions" about Chinese politics.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 03, 2020, 02:35:30 AM
The real problem is the US two party system that never allows a real left-wing candidate to win presidency. Who is the left supposed to vote for? What would the right-wingers say if the two candidates for president were Bernie Sanders and Jesse Ventura? They would lose their minds! For the left it's always like this.
The insurance companies and Big Pharma spend millions on their propaganda to make sure there is no consensus. If the current system was so wonderful to people why would they need to spend money defending it? Wouldn't it be better to spend millions to give more people care?
I suppose many Republican politicians never liked Trump, but they love power and money so they have defended Trump, but too much is too much... ...while the Republican voters have seen how incompetent Trump is. Trump is losing and the rats are abandoning the sinking ship.
Well, we disagree on the reason behind the lack of consensus. I have not been convinced that M4a is the answer, and if there is Big Pharma propaganda, it does not reach me, e.g.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 03, 2020, 02:35:30 AM
The real problem is the US two party system that never allows a real left-wing candidate to win presidency. Who is the left supposed to vote for? What would the right-wingers say if the two candidates for president were Bernie Sanders and Jesse Ventura? They would lose their minds! For the left it's always like this.
The insurance companies and Big Pharma spend millions on their propaganda to make sure there is no consensus. If the current system was so wonderful to people why would they need to spend money defending it? Wouldn't it be better to spend millions to give more people care?
I suppose many Republican politicians never liked Trump, but they love power and money so they have defended Trump, but too much is too much... ...while the Republican voters have seen how incompetent Trump is. Trump is losing and the rats are abandoning the sinking ship.
The Left's problem is a basic one: between 75% and 85% of American voters disagree with their ideas. That in turn is the result of a two fold flaw: instead of trying to persuade they preach, and they tend to wave away any and all information that conflicts with their views as propaganda by Big [Fill in the blank].
That flaw is endemic on the Left.
Quote from: Dowder on August 03, 2020, 08:33:26 AM
Can we stop comparing countries with 5 million to those with 330 million?
I refuse to believe that you are so clueless that you do not know the answer to this.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 08:59:58 AM
The Left's problem is a basic one: between 75% and 85% of American voters disagree with their ideas. That in turn is the result of a two fold flaw: instead of trying to persuade they preach, and they tend to wave away any and all information that conflicts with their views as propaganda by Big [Fill in the blank].
That flaw is endemic on the Left.
Again fantasy perceptions of the left. The vast majority of us on the left know that we are only about 25% of the electorate. I would be stunned if more than 10% would agree with me. As far as the rest of your perceptions I find that only a minority of liberals behave the way you claim.
As Trump leans into attacks on mail voting, GOP officials confront signs of Republican turnout crisis (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/republicans-race-to-promote-mail-voting-as-trumps-attacks-discourage-his-own-supporters-from-embracing-the-practice/2020/08/03/9dd1d988-d1d9-11ea-9038-af089b63ac21_story.html)
Multiple public surveys show a growing divide between Democrats and Republicans about the security of voting by mail, with Republicans saying they are far less likely to trust it in November. In addition, party leaders in several states said they are encountering resistance among GOP voters who are being encouraged to vote absentee while also seeing the president describe mail voting as "rigged" and "fraudulent."
As a result, state and local Republicans across the country fear they are falling dramatically behind in a practice that is expected to be key to voter turnout this year. Through mailers and Facebook ads, they are racing to promote absentee balloting among their own.
In the process, some Republican officials have tried to draw a distinction between "absentee ballots," which Trump claims are secure, and "mail ballots," which he has repeatedly attacked. The terms are typically used interchangeably.
Alabama Secretary of State John Merrill, describing a recent meeting with a group of Republican voters in Fort Payne, said he felt compelled to explain that there is only one kind of mail-in voting in Alabama, and that it is safe and secure.
It comes down to who has figured out the distinction is a partisan fiction and those who haven't and are afraid their "absentee" ballot will be mistaken for a very bad "mail in" ballot.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 03, 2020, 09:13:37 AM
Again fantasy perceptions of the left. The vast majority of us on the left know that we are only about 25% of the electorate. I would be stunned if more than 10% would agree with me. As far as the rest of your perceptions I find that only a minority of liberals behave the way you claim.
The ones who are active on the Internet seem to fit the profile I give. And I would make a distinction between the Left and liberals.
But you are correct that most progressives are too busy living Life. As are most conservatives. If my statement seemed too broad I apologize.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 03, 2020, 08:49:00 AM
Well, we disagree on the reason behind the lack of consensus. I have not been convinced that M4a is the answer, and if there is Big Pharma propaganda, it does not reach me, e.g.
Answer to what? What is the thing that you want to be answered/solved? In what way do you want to improve US healthcare system? I'd say the medicare for all friendly propaganda hasn't reached you either, but I could be mistaken.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 08:59:58 AM
The Left's problem is a basic one: between 75% and 85% of American voters disagree with their ideas. That in turn is the result of a two fold flaw: instead of trying to persuade they preach, and they tend to wave away any and all information that conflicts with their views as propaganda by Big [Fill in the blank].
That flaw is endemic on the Left.
As I tried to explain several times before my hiatus this is not true. Americans are actually largely for lefty ideas, but they don't understand it properly themselves. Someone may call himself a conservative, but when asked if he/she wants to raise minimum wage or end wars the answer is more of then than not left-wing position. It's not Bernies support as you think. Bernie and the left has been called the satan for decades and Americans are confused. They voted for Biden because corporate media kept shouting HE IS THE ONE BEATING TRUMP!!!!! while being ultra-negative about Bernie.
Popularity of left proposals is high, though the wording matters some.
(https://i.imgur.com/8wHOK7c.jpg)
Among the proposals listed the most popular are "Medicare-for-all" and "Universal health coverage". One is a means, the other is a goal. They are equally popular.
I think most people don't want to be labeled as leftists. They'd prefer to get the goods without the label. I don't see how it matters. Either you have insurance no one can take from you or you don't. As far as no one taking it back, Medicare has the obvious advantage that people are extremely well motivated to destroy the careers of pols who try to harm it. It's no longer a "poor class" program, easily targeted by partisan sociopaths.
If another way comes about that is as defensible as MFA, I won't object.
Protest, ye Trumpkins!
I wonder if Europe (740 million people) is too large to be compared with a country of only 330 million people... :P
The laws of nature aren't different in large and small countries. The US can do things State by State and deal with much smaller population than 330 million. If Germany for example is able to do something, the individual States should not be "too big" to do the same.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 03, 2020, 09:58:44 AM
As I tried to explain several times before my hiatus this is not true. Americans are actually largely for lefty ideas, but they don't understand it properly themselves. Someone may call himself a conservative, but when asked if he/she wants to raise minimum wage or end wars the answer is more of then than not left-wing position. It's not Bernies support as you think. Bernie and the left has been called the satan for decades and Americans are confused. They voted for Biden because corporate media kept shouting HE IS THE ONE BEATING TRUMP!!!!! while being ultra-negative about Bernie.
Isolationism/anti-war ideas have a long history in the US, most of it linked to the Right. It's not an idea that's original with the Left. A lot of Trump's support is from people who think abandoning NATO, etc is highly desirable.
And there's a few other things that are not so radically Left. Raising the minimum wage is not a radical idea. Almost doubling it (which can be called a Leftist position of $15) is. But not very radical, given a few states have already adopted it into law). So the argument is how much to raise it, not whether to raise it.
So what you think of as Leftist positions may not actually be Leftist.
The White Grievance Party (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/03/how-white-supremacy-infected-christianity-republican-party/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-c-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
"His latest book, "White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity," is a masterful study documenting how white supremacy came to dominate not just Southern culture, but White Christianity. In it, he argues that "most white Christian churches have protected white supremacy by dressing it in theological garb, giving it a home in a respected institution, and calibrating it to local cultural sensibilities." He also recounts ways in which White churches are moving to account for their past and explore their history with Black Americans.
His latest book, "White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity," is a masterful study documenting how white supremacy came to dominate not just Southern culture, but White Christianity. In it, he argues that "most white Christian churches have protected white supremacy by dressing it in theological garb, giving it a home in a respected institution, and calibrating it to local cultural sensibilities." He also recounts ways in which White churches are moving to account for their past and explore their history with Black Americans."
"Most tellingly, Trump's ascendancy has snuffed out the White Christian character and virtue industry, at least as these ideals apply to our political leaders. One jaw-dropping statistic: In 2011, only 3 in 10 White evangelicals said that it was possible for a political leader to commit immoral acts in his or her private life and still be able to fulfill their duties in their public life; by 2016, with Trump at the top of the ticket, 72 percent of White evangelicals had decided this was no longer a problem."
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2020, 10:05:52 AM
Popularity of left proposals is high, though the wording matters some.
(https://i.imgur.com/8wHOK7c.jpg)
Among the proposals listed the most popular are "Medicare-for-all" and "Universal health coverage". One is a means, the other is a goal. They are equally popular.
Wording indeed matters, but even when the SCARY word "socialized" is used, there are less negative answers than positive. The US doesn't need to "socialize" the care at all, but have totally privatized care providers just as for example Canada and France have, but the key thing is to have single payer system, to remove the unnecessory mafia-like middle man between you and your doctor sucking your money and denying care you need. Because the US is an oligarchy, this "mafia" has been buying the politicians to not make this extremely important move while feeding the public with misleading propaganda fearmongering about single payer healthcare.
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2020, 10:13:47 AM
I think most people don't want to be labeled as leftists. They'd prefer to get the goods without the label.
Indeed. It's a bit similar to some agnostics and atheists saying they are believers in fear of being condemned by the society/family/etc. Everything left has been demonisized for decades and especially the older generation is struggling to change their attitude. The younger generations are much more open to lefty ideas being crushed so totally by the crony capitalism and being in touch with people in other countries in social media to learn that things can be much better and in many countries are.
People don't always know well what the labels mean. Many people who call themselves as moderate Democrats may in fact be more left than they believe and even people calling themselves conservatives might have many left-wing economic opinions while having right-wing social opinions.
No less an expert than Lee Atwater explained Repub political strategy in a brutally frank but entirely accurate way back in 1981. Nobody has ever done it better.
You start out in 1954 by saying, "N****r, n****r, n****r." By 1968 you can't say "n****r"—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states' rights, and all that stuff, and you're getting so abstract. Now, you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.... "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N****r, n****r."
I'm more polite when I say Republinomics is all about killing your neighbors goats, not feeding your own. I routinely neglect to point out that the neighbors in question are imagined as differently colored, even though the majority of them are not, and are therefore victims of "friendly fire".
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 10:19:06 AM
Isolationism/anti-war ideas have a long history in the US, most of it linked to the Right. It's not an idea that's original with the Left. A lot of Trump's support is from people who think abandoning NATO, etc is highly desirable.
And there's a few other things that are not so radically Left. Raising the minimum wage is not a radical idea. Almost doubling it (which can be called a Leftist position of $15) is. But not very radical, given a few states have already adopted it into law). So the argument is how much to raise it, not whether to raise it.
So what you think of as Leftist positions may not actually be Leftist.
The left thinks anyone working full time should be able to manage basic needs and then some (have
economic dignity*). Anything else is radical. The minimum wage has not been raised over then decades even close to as much as it should have so to get on to a proper level "doubling" is needed. It's not radical. It's long overdue.
* Economic dignity means being able
"to care for your family and enjoy the most meaningful moments of family life, without economic deprivation taking away those most meaningful moments"
The federal minimum wage is 17% below where it was a decade ago in real terms, and 31% below where it was in 1968, the peak year.
A reasonable person might think the huge increase in the size of the economy would justify a higher real minimum wage, not a lower one, and that would have prevented the growth slowdown that has chronically afflicted the economy since the '70s. It's hard to see how such a loss of income to the biggest spenders in the economy wouldn't have been an important contributing factor in the growth decline.
Anti-eviction protests have begun in New Orleans.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 03, 2020, 10:57:41 AM
The left thinks anyone working full time should be able to manage basic needs and then some (have economic dignity*). Anything else is radical. The minimum wage has not been raised over then decades even close to as much as it should have so to get on to a proper level "doubling" is needed. It's not radical. It's long overdue.
* Economic dignity means being able "to care for your family and enjoy the most meaningful moments of family life, without economic deprivation taking away those most meaningful moments"
Then the Left needs to explain why it's the
employer's responsibility to do that, and not that of the surrounding society acting through a social welfare net. Also, it needs to define what exactly are "basic needs".
It also needs to explain how it would work it so that employers don't decide the cost of that rise in wages isn't made up for by much higher prices to customers and/or cutting staff. If I have 3 employees working at $10 an hour, I can either raise my prices to compensate for the extra 50% labor costs or let go of one employee to keep my labor costs level, or swallow the increased costs and eventually go bankrupt or close the business because of lack of profit. At which point those three employees will find themselves making $0 an hour.
The Left's ideas are fine ideas but reality tends to shoot them down.
Quote from: Dowder on August 03, 2020, 09:36:50 AM
So tell me what you're afraid I missed.
I am not going to waste my time responding to a question you know the answer to.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 03:54:15 PM
Then the Left needs to explain why it's the employer's responsibility to do that, and not that of the surrounding society acting through a social welfare net. Also, it needs to define what exactly are "basic needs".
It also needs to explain how it would work it so that employers don't decide the cost of that rise in wages isn't made up for by much higher prices to customers and/or cutting staff. If I have 3 employees working at $10 an hour, I can either raise my prices to compensate for the extra 50% labor costs or let go of one employee to keep my labor costs level, or swallow the increased costs and eventually go bankrupt or close the business because of lack of profit. At which point those three employees will find themselves making $0 an hour.
The Left's ideas are fine ideas but reality tends to shoot them down.
Indeed: who doesn't like the idea of universal healthcare? I've seen
Star Trek.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 03:54:15 PM
Then the Left needs to explain why it's the employer's responsibility to do that, and not that of the surrounding society acting through a social welfare net. Also, it needs to define what exactly are "basic needs".
The need for exact definitions only applies if you are trying to avoid meeting needs. If you want to meet them normative definitions will serve.
Every attempt to show jobs are lost when wages rise fails, because job gains compensate when people who make more money spend it back into the economy. That's why studies of the effects of minimum wage increases don't find the job losses opponents of higher wages hope for. Anyone who understands demand economics (you know, the kind that's designed to work) knows the effect of raising wages from the bottom up is expansionary. It creates jobs, better paying jobs than it loses. That's what it's designed to do. It benefits the wage earners, of course, but the whole economy clearly benefits when businesses can serve customers with more cash to spend. Your business benefits from the additional spending of the workers at other businesses, just as other businesses benefit from the higher wages you pay your employees.
Leaked report shows DHS targeted Americans who fought against ISIS in attempt to tie antifa to foreign power (https://news.yahoo.com/leaked-report-shows-dhs-targeted-214300677.html)
DHS targeted left wing Americans who joined Kurdish groups fighting ISIS alongside US forces. Trump wants to tie these very bad Kurds to antifa and antifa to the Kurds he betrayed.
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2020, 06:46:47 PM
The need for an exact definitions only applies if you are trying to avoid meeting needs. If you want to meet them normative definitions will serve.
Every attempt to show jobs are lost when wages rise fails, because job gains compensate when people who make more money spend it back into the economy. That's why studies of the effects of minimum wage increases don't find the job losses opponents of higher wages hope for. Anyone who understands demand economics (you know, the kind that's designed to work) knows the effect of raising wages from the bottom up is expansionary. It creates jobs, better paying jobs than it loses. That's what it's designed to do. It benefits the wage earners, of course, but the whole economy clearly benefits when businesses can serve customers with more cash to spend. Your business benefits from the additional spending of the workers at other businesses, just as other businesses benefit from the higher wages you pay your employees.
Expansionary means inflation. Prices go up and the cash being spent doesn't actually buy more goods.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 07:27:33 PM
Expansionary means inflation. Prices go up and the cash being spent doesn't actually buy more goods.
That's rarely the case. You have to run out of room first. Since the common state of the economy is room to spare, expansion is not a problem. Inflation only happens when you've hit a growth limit.
It's hard to get pure demand side inflation even if you want it, and harder to keep it, since the condition of high demand spurs production to meet it. Supply side inflation is the more usual condition. That's the kind that can hurt the economy most.
It's also important to note that when inflation does rise, higher wages are a component, which is why workers are less disadvantaged by it and are in fact more likely to see a rise in purchasing power than during low inflation periods, which tend to be low partly because the wage component is at or near zero. During the entirety of the weak growth/low inflation period of the last decade you heard complaints about what inflation was doing to real incomes. The complaints were justified, but the cause was low inflation with no wage component in it.
Your daft economic theory is leading you into the wilderness.
By definition inflation means less purchasing power because prices go up.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 03:54:15 PM
Then the Left needs to explain why it's the employer's responsibility to do that, and not that of the surrounding society acting through a social welfare net. Also, it needs to define what exactly are "basic needs".
Because the employer has someone working for him or her and benefits from that. No different from the employees responsibility to do his/her job as required by the employer. Of course social welfare net can take care of this via a UBI system, but to my knowledge the US doesn't have federal $15 minimum wage nor UBI. So, it isn't taken care of in any style.
I already gave a definition of economic dignity above. Based on it it's estimated the minimum wage should be $15-$20. The left has been defining a lot of things. Are you even listening?
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 03:54:15 PMIt also needs to explain how it would work it so that employers don't decide the cost of that rise in wages isn't made up for by much higher prices to customers and/or cutting staff.
This is a right-wing talking point. Prices can't raise a lot because of competition. Companies cut staff all the time even without minimum wage raise. Even if these things happened, isn't it a small price to pay for a society were people have economic dignity and you don't have wage slavery? Also, the left can respond the increased purchasing power of the minimum wage workers stimula economy. Trickle down economics has never worked, but when the poorer get more money they use it fast, the money moves and that stimulates economy.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 03:54:15 PMIf I have 3 employees working at $10 an hour, I can either raise my prices to compensate for the extra 50% labor costs or let go of one employee to keep my labor costs level, or swallow the increased costs and eventually go bankrupt or close the business because of lack of profit. At which point those three employees will find themselves making $0 an hour.
You are running a lousy business if $10 an hour is all you can pay to your workers. Anyone can run a business using slaves, but we are better than having slaves aren't we? In 2020 the society should have evolved to the level were people working full time have economic dignity. If not, why have we been increasing productivity all these decades? So, yes if your business is so weak to not be able to pay $15 and hour to your workers it
should go bankrupt (that's capitalism) and someone better than you can try to run a stronger business and pay $15 while you can go and work for someone and be happy you are paid at least $15 an hour.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 03:54:15 PMThe Left's ideas are fine ideas but reality tends to shoot them down.
When did the reality shoot the $15 idea down? Why does the right think the left is so stupid to come up with unrealistic ideas? The left wants to improve people's lives for real and that requires solutions that work. In countries where the minumum wage is high the economy has not collapsed, on the contrary having better purchasing power among the lower wage earners is good for economy and the society when people are happier (less crime, mental health issues etc. which by itself saves money for the society).
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 08:04:16 PM
Your daft economic theory is leading you into the wilderness.
By definition inflation means less purchasing power because prices go up.
Bernie Sanders got Amazon and Disney to rise their company minimum wage to $15. How much did the prices of Amazon and Disney go up because of this?
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2020, 06:46:47 PM
The need for exact definitions only applies if you are trying to avoid meeting needs. If you want to meet them normative definitions will serve.
Every attempt to show jobs are lost when wages rise fails, because job gains compensate when people who make more money spend it back into the economy. That's why studies of the effects of minimum wage increases don't find the job losses opponents of higher wages hope for. Anyone who understands demand economics (you know, the kind that's designed to work) knows the effect of raising wages from the bottom up is expansionary. It creates jobs, better paying jobs than it loses. That's what it's designed to do. It benefits the wage earners, of course, but the whole economy clearly benefits when businesses can serve customers with more cash to spend. Your business benefits from the additional spending of the workers at other businesses, just as other businesses benefit from the higher wages you pay your employees.
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2020, 07:58:06 PM
That's rarely the case. You have to run out of room first. Since the common state of the economy is room to spare, expansion is not a problem. Inflation only happens when you've hit a growth limit.
It's hard to get pure demand side inflation even if you want it, and harder to keep it, since the condition of high demand spurs production to meet it. Supply side inflation is the more usual condition. That's the kind that can hurt the economy most.
It's also important to note that when inflation does rise, higher wages are a component, which is why workers are less disadvantaged by it and are in fact more likely to see a rise in purchasing power than during low inflation periods, which tend to be low partly because the wage component is at or near zero. During the entirely of the weak growth/low inflation period of the last decade you heard complaints about what inflation was doing to real incomes. The complaints were justified, but the cause was low inflation with no wage component in it.
Good posts. 0:) Your posts actually look like you have read books about theories of macroeconomy while many other here regurgitate posts that look like
PragerU pamphlets... :-\
https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/donald-trump-revolution-uprising-election-2020-20200623.html
Cross-post:
https://www.youtube.com/v/WQsLvvEdyOk
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2020, 03:55:12 AM
Cross-post:
https://www.youtube.com/v/WQsLvvEdyOk
150.000 deaths is not that bad, because the millions and millions of coronavirus cases is a much bigger number?
I guess the 3000 victims of 9/11 wasn't that bad either considering how many planes there are in the sky!
Well, he is the very stable genius and we aren't so we just don't comprehend this level of logic...
Asked by an Axios interviewer how Trump will remember civil rights icon John Lewis, Trump said: "He did not come to my inauguration."
This man is such a basket case.
You could write a narcissist psych disorder primer with just Trump quotes.
Quote from: T. D. on August 04, 2020, 03:44:27 AM
https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/donald-trump-revolution-uprising-election-2020-20200623.html
Quote from: Curtis MilamTo use a timely metaphor, Trump and his supporters are a virus
Ah, dehumanization. Works every time. For some.
Quote from: JBS on August 03, 2020, 08:04:16 PM
Your daft economic theory is leading you into the wilderness.
By definition inflation means less purchasing power because prices go up.
It depends on the balance between the wage price and other prices a worker sees. Workers are directly affected by the purchasing power of their income, not the purchasing power of "the dollar".
We've lived in a "lowflation" paradise for most of the last 40 years.
(https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/FT_18.07.26_hourlyWage_adjusted.png)
Wow, look at that purchasing power! If we let the minimum wage decay for another 20 years we'll finally whip inflation for good.
Trump's base starting to erode, new poll shows (https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-08-04/trumps-base-erodes-new-poll-california)
Trump trails Super-Creepy 46 by quite a bit in California. That's surprising. I could have sworn the presidential race was going to be close on the Left Coast.
Michigan ballots tangled in mail delays in advance of Tuesday primary (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michigan-ballots-tangled-in-mail-delays-in-advance-of-tuesday-primary/2020/08/03/95c2039e-d5a8-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_primariesvoting-725am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Recent policy changes at the Postal Service put in place by the new postmaster general, a top donor to President Trump, have caused days-long backlogs of mail, according to postal employees and union officials, heightening fears that absentee ballots will not be delivered in time to be counted.
The Postal Service has said the changes are aimed at stabilizing the agency after decades of financial woes and are not meant to slow the delivery of ballots or any other mail.
But Trump has spent the past several months lambasting the practice of voting by mail with rhetoric that now appears to be turning GOP voters away from absentee ballots. He has recently intensified his attacks on the Postal Service, telling reporters on Monday that it has been mismanaged and does not have the capacity to handle a flood of absentee ballots.
Repubs are worried. They depend on mail-in voting to hit their turnout goal. Dems are more likely to be energized by barriers to voting. Vote suppression angers them, Repubs are disheartened by how it blows back on them.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 04, 2020, 02:41:57 AM
Because the employer has someone working for him or her and benefits from that. No different from the employees responsibility to do his/her job as required by the employer. Of course social welfare net can take care of this via a UBI system, but to my knowledge the US doesn't have federal $15 minimum wage nor UBI. So, it isn't taken care of in any style.
I already gave a definition of economic dignity above. Based on it it's estimated the minimum wage should be $15-$20. The left has been defining a lot of things. Are you even listening?
This is a right-wing talking point. Prices can't raise a lot because of competition. Companies cut staff all the time even without minimum wage raise. Even if these things happened, isn't it a small price to pay for a society were people have economic dignity and you don't have wage slavery? Also, the left can respond the increased purchasing power of the minimum wage workers stimula economy. Trickle down economics has never worked, but when the poorer get more money they use it fast, the money moves and that stimulates economy.
You are running a lousy business if $10 an hour is all you can pay to your workers. Anyone can run a business using slaves, but we are better than having slaves aren't we? In 2020 the society should have evolved to the level were people working full time have economic dignity. If not, why have we been increasing productivity all these decades? So, yes if your business is so weak to not be able to pay $15 and hour to your workers it should go bankrupt (that's capitalism) and someone better than you can try to run a stronger business and pay $15 while you can go and work for someone and be happy you are paid at least $15 an hour.
When did the reality shoot the $15 idea down? Why does the right think the left is so stupid to come up with unrealistic ideas? The left wants to improve people's lives for real and that requires solutions that work. In countries where the minumum wage is high the economy has not collapsed, on the contrary having better purchasing power among the lower wage earners is good for economy and the society when people are happier (less crime, mental health issues etc. which by itself saves money for the society).
1) Your definition of economic dignity is vague and not usable. How much food, what sort of housing, what sort of transport, how much clothing and shoes?
Every person has a different view of those questions, which means there can never be a standard of economic dignity that everyone accepts.
2) You seem to assume I don't want a more robust social welfare net. FTR, I do.
3) Your post suggests you have no hands on experience in running a business.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 04, 2020, 03:00:14 AM
Bernie Sanders got Amazon and Disney to rise their company minimum wage to $15. How much did the prices of Amazon and Disney go up because of this?
I have no idea about Disney.
As for Amazon, they've been cutting services, and therefore costs. Also if you check the stats, the average Amazon pay rate before the raise was about $13.50. It wasn't a drastic change.
Also, Disney & Amazon are both large-cap publicly traded companies. Sure, they have the balance sheets to sustain the increase in wage expense.
What about the mom-&-pop manicure boutique across from me on Main Street? What of the mom-&-pop Bulgarian bodega around the corner?
The problem ain't that they "run a lousy business."
Regarding the USPS being sabotaged
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/usps-tracking-in-transit-late-mail-delivery-philadelphia-packages-postal-service-20200802.html
The man Trump put in charge of the USPS has huge financial interests in some of its competitors. The suspicion is that this is part of a strategy to privatize the mail.
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2020, 07:17:51 AM
Regarding the USPS being sabotaged
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/usps-tracking-in-transit-late-mail-delivery-philadelphia-packages-postal-service-20200802.html
The man Trump put in charge of the USPS has huge financial interests in some of its competitors. The suspicion is that this is part of a strategy to privatize the mail.
Yep.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2020, 07:33:38 AM
Yep.
Of course, but there's also the immediate goal of sabotaging 2020 voting by mail.
Quote from: T. D. on August 04, 2020, 07:37:10 AM
Of course, but there's also the immediate goal of sabotaging 2020 voting by mail.
Indeedy.
Possibly not present company, but many Republican voters (in curious contrast to the Republican Lawbreakers) are finding the deliberate sabotage of government an untenable philosophy.
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2020, 07:17:51 AM
Regarding the USPS being sabotaged
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/usps-tracking-in-transit-late-mail-delivery-philadelphia-packages-postal-service-20200802.html
The man Trump put in charge of the USPS has huge financial interests in some of its competitors. The suspicion is that this is part of a strategy to privatize the mail.
Assuming privatization is the goal, so?
Quote from: T. D. on August 04, 2020, 07:37:10 AM
Of course, but there's also the immediate goal of sabotaging 2020 voting by mail.
It would be interesting to see how woes reported in early August translate to material operational changes in three months.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2020, 07:15:43 AM
Also, Disney & Amazon are both large-cap publicly traded companies. Sure, they have the balance sheets to sustain the increase in wage expense.
What about the mom-&-pop manicure boutique across from me on Main Street? What of the mom-&-pop Bulgarian bodega around the corner?
The problem ain't that they "run a lousy business."
I don't see how a declining minimum wage has helped mom and pop businesses. The wage expense has to be balanced against the increase in sales. If this is wrong, economic expansion would be wrong and we should welcome contractions, because they keep wages low. "Shrink to grow" wouldn't just be a batty doctrine, it would be true, and the best thing to do in recessions and depressions would be to cut government spending. Yet even die hard shrinksters know what a catastrophe that would be. They may not let the truth influence their dogma, but they sure won't let their ideas get in the way when action must be taken. When people defy their own purported beliefs when an emergency strikes, that should tell you something about their purported beliefs.
Local entertainment:
From June (the changes took effect July 1st) - Portland mayor to disband Gun Violence Reduction Team, Transit units (https://www.kptv.com/news/portland-mayor-to-disband-gun-violence-reduction-team-transit-units/article_8f349d9a-aab3-11ea-b3df-9bebe559f374.html)
From August - Portland's deadliest month in 30 years ends with 150 shots fired (https://katu.com/news/local/deadliest-month-in-30-years-ends-with-more-than-150-shots-fired)
Defund the police.
Quote from: Todd on August 04, 2020, 07:56:13 AM
Defund the police.
Cut their ammo budget. Force them to conserve it for shooting dangerous criminals. Of course that could backfire and they might decide to stop shooting dangerous criminals and reserve ammo for enhanced traffic stops.
When bored, troll with a strawman
Trump (who understands less than bupkis) says coronavirus 'under control as much as you can control it.'
The U.S. coronavirus death toll has surpassed 152,000. Trump says the grim tally "is what it is," goes golfing.
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2020, 07:08:48 AM
1) Your definition of economic dignity is vague and not usable. How much food, what sort of housing, what sort of transport, how much clothing and shoes?
Every person has a different view of those questions, which means there can never be a standard of economic dignity that everyone accepts.
(...)
Yes, trade unions nowadays often tend to be very weak in the US and membership was record-low in 2019, a mere 14,x mio. In Finland, about 3/4 of workers are members, in Denmark it's about 65 %.
Quote from: Todd on August 04, 2020, 07:56:13 AM
Local entertainment:
From June (the changes took effect July 1st) - Portland mayor to disband Gun Violence Reduction Team, Transit units (https://www.kptv.com/news/portland-mayor-to-disband-gun-violence-reduction-team-transit-units/article_8f349d9a-aab3-11ea-b3df-9bebe559f374.html)
From August - Portland's deadliest month in 30 years ends with 150 shots fired (https://katu.com/news/local/deadliest-month-in-30-years-ends-with-more-than-150-shots-fired)
Defund the police.
I would laugh except for the obvious part that innocent people will end up suffering.
On that site there were some mugshots of people arrested for rioting:
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/kptv.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/f/7b/f7b2b81a-bf1d-11ea-907f-f3ad46d139cc/5f026e5bbb16e.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C675)
All white people that look to be in their 30s.
But I checked real quick and didn't know that Portland is the whitest major city in the US. 72%! Only 6% black...
they must be... really traumatized about George Floyd months later...
?
i guess?
Quote from: greg on August 04, 2020, 08:21:59 AMI would laugh except for the obvious part that innocent people will end up suffering.
Portland is a laboratory of democracy. It is important for these changes to occur. If people die, people die. Yes, the disbanded units were created for a reason, but listening to experts is bad when it contradicts ideology.
Quote from: greg on August 04, 2020, 08:21:59 AM
But I checked real quick and didn't know that Portland is the whitest major city in the US. 72%! Only 6% black...
they must be... really traumatized about George Floyd months later...
Portland protests have precious little to do with BLM.
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2020, 07:08:48 AM
1) Your definition of economic dignity is vague and not usable. How much food, what sort of housing, what sort of transport, how much clothing and shoes?
Every person has a different view of those questions, which means there can never be a standard of economic dignity that everyone accepts.
2) You seem to assume I don't want a more robust social welfare net. FTR, I do.
3) Your post suggests you have no hands on experience in running a business.I have no idea about Disney.
As for Amazon, they've been cutting services, and therefore costs. Also if you check the stats, the average Amazon pay rate before the raise was about $13.50. It wasn't a drastic change.
1) What else can things like "economic dignity" be than vague? What does it matter? If rising the wages increases "economic dignity" then that's the way to go if possible. Every person is different, but we can estimate an average person. You are coming up with pointless talking points to prevent positive change that would increase people's quality of life.
2) Well, what is your proposition for a more robust social welfare net?
3) Does that $13.50 average include Jeff Bezos? I'm sure Amazon has staff in higher positions making $50 or more so it's no wonder the average has been that much above mimimum wage. Instead of staring averages we should ask how the earnings of the low salary employees has changed? How do we know Amazon wouldn't have made those service cuts anyway?
"This was predictable. A president who is fixated on an ineffectual border wall, and has portrayed asylum seekers as vectors of disease, was always going to reach for travel bans as a first resort. And Americans who bought into his rhetoric of xenophobia and isolationism were going to be especially susceptible to thinking that simple entry controls were a panacea.
And so the U.S. wasted its best chance of restraining COVID‑19. Although the disease first arrived in the U.S. in mid-January, genetic evidence shows that the specific viruses that triggered the first big outbreaks, in Washington State, didn't land until mid-February. The country could have used that time to prepare. Instead, Trump, who had spent his entire presidency learning that he could say whatever he wanted without consequence, assured Americans that "the coronavirus is very much under control," and "like a miracle, it will disappear." With impunity, Trump lied. With impunity, the virus spread.
On February 26, Trump asserted that cases were "going to be down to close to zero." Over the next two months, at least 1 million Americans were infected."
Quote from: dowderJust when did he lie?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2020, 07:15:43 AM
Also, Disney & Amazon are both large-cap publicly traded companies. Sure, they have the balance sheets to sustain the increase in wage expense.
What about the mom-&-pop manicure boutique across from me on Main Street? What of the mom-&-pop Bulgarian bodega around the corner?
The problem ain't that they "run a lousy business."
Well, people should not be forced into wage slavery so that mom-&-pop stores can exist. Small businesses can be subsidized by the goverment, but in the oligarchy of the US, it's the other way around and the large companies are the ones getting subsidized (Amazon pays zero taxes).
In capitalism, mom-&-pop stores can't really compete with Walmart and Amazon, but if we want mom-&-pop stores to be around we can regulate the capitalism and change the rules a little bit and still avoid wage slavery.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 04, 2020, 08:40:28 AM
Well, people should not be forced into wage slavery so that mom-&-pop stores can exist. Small businesses can be subsidized by the goverment, but in the oligarchy of the US, it's the other way around and the large companies are the ones getting subsidized (Amazon pays zero taxes).
In capitalism, mom-&-pop stores can't really compete with Walmart and Amazon, but if we want mom-&-pop stores to be around we can regulate the capitalism and change the rules a little bit and still avoid wage slavery.
It's a bad look to cast mom-&-pop stores as "wage-slavers"
"That brings us to the larger problems with a good deal of mainstream media coverage: the false supposition that Trump is a rational president whose actions can be analyzed as deliberate policy or political choices; the aversion to describing Trump's statements accurately ("lie," "incoherent," etc.); and the reluctance to give up the false idol of "balance" when one side acts in bad faith. In conducting themselves in this way, mainstream media help prop up Trump, conferring an aura of normality that is not earned. They also let other Republicans off the hook when they should be asking hard questions about their own moral failures. (How can you seriously support someone who blabbers nonsense about coronavirus deaths? Aren't you embarrassed to defend Trump's blatant appeals to racism?) And they give cover to right-wing editors, pundits and columnists who concoct elaborate rationalizations and ignore what is in front of their noses — a haphazard, delusional and racist president."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2020, 08:08:05 AM
The U.S. coronavirus death toll has surpassed 152,000.
In Finland it has surpassed 330 and is now 331 (was 329 for long). :-[
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 04, 2020, 08:21:28 AM
Yes, trade unions nowadays often tend to be very weak in the US and membership was record-low in 2019, a mere 14,x mio. In Finland, about 3/4 of workers are members, in Denmark it's about 65 %.
Which is tied into the decline of manufacturing and the rise of service jobs, and a direct link to stagnant wages. It's a lot easier for a union to negotiate with National Widget with its factories in Anytown US than 100 Widgets'R'Us franchisees selling products made overseas.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2020, 08:44:15 AM
It's a bad look to cast mom-&-pop stores as "wage-slavers"
That would depend all on the wage... less than $12/hr (depending on the region) sounds like wage slavery to me.
It's all paid for one way or another... a low wage means food stamps and pell grant, and whatever else I don't even know about.
Just seems weird to me that ultimately we are paying in taxes for these things what employers could be paying their employees...
Quote from: 71 dB on August 04, 2020, 08:32:23 AM
1) What else can things like "economic dignity" be than vague? What does it matter? If rising the wages increases "economic dignity" then that's the way to go if possible. Every person is different, but we can estimate an average person. You are coming up with pointless talking points to prevent positive change that would increase people's quality of life.
R
There is no average person. "Economic dignity" is itself a pointless talking point.
Quote
2) Well, what is your proposition for a more robust social welfare net?
For health care, the "public option" is what would work best here in the US. For almost everything else, we have programs in place. What's needed is to reform them if they are bureaucratic messes and fund them more expansively.
Quote
3) Does that $13.50 average include Jeff Bezos? I'm sure Amazon has staff in higher positions making $50 or more so it's no wonder the average has been that much above mimimum wage. Instead of staring averages we should ask how the earnings of the low salary employees has changed? How do we know Amazon wouldn't have made those service cuts anyway?
Good questions . Perhaps you should have checked into them before throwing out a pointless talking point about how it raise its payscale.
I jump out now because the discussion is getting more and more annoying.
Quote from: Todd on August 04, 2020, 07:52:39 AM
Assuming privatization is the goal, so?
It would be interesting to see how woes reported in early August translate to material operational changes in three months.
I have my mail in ballot for Florida's primary in front of me (election date is August 18).
Trying to decide among lists of totally unknown candidates for local offices is fun in a special sort of way. A few of them I may just skip. [No statewide elections this year. Governorship comes up in 2022, as is Rubio's re-election, assuming he doesn't pull a no-I-won't-run-yes-I will like he did last time.] I do have the option of handing it in at an early voting site.
Also, last week's order from Arkivmusic is apparently stuck in Pittsburgh for the last few days, per Informed Delivery.
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2020, 09:18:23 AM
I have my mail in ballot for Florida's primary in front of me (election date is August 18).
Trying to decide among lists of totally unknown candidates for local offices is fun in a special sort of way. A few of them I may just skip. [No statewide elections this year. Governorship comes up in 2022, as is Rubio's re-election, assuming he doesn't pull a no-I-won't-run-yes-I will like he did last time.] I do have the option of handing it in at an early voting site.
Also, last week's order from Arkivmusic is apparently stuck in Pittsburgh for the last few days, per Informed Delivery.
That's all very interesting, but it does not address privatization, nor does it explain how current headlines portend some ominous developments between now and election day. My mail service has been on the fritz since March. I attribute it not to nefarious plots by Trump and his cohorts - who would have to magically become competent and effective in putting a plan into motion - but rather on the humdrum pandemic and the ripple effect it has had on all manner of logistical enterprises around the world.
Quote from: Todd on August 04, 2020, 10:00:29 AM
That's all very interesting, but it does not address privatization, nor does it explain how current headlines portend some ominous developments between now and election day. My mail service has been on the fritz since March. I attribute it not to nefarious plots by Trump and his cohorts - who would have to magically become competent and effective in putting a plan into motion - but rather on the humdrum pandemic and the ripple effect it has had on all manner of logistical enterprises around the world.
Did you read the link I gave? It detailed the internal policy changes which are making the effects of the pandemic worse.
Count on Mr Peabody!
As seen on Twitter, inspired by Trump's version of a celebrated national park.
"Yo Semite Shmuel"
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Een02ANXgAAVusC?format=jpg&name=small)
[Shmuel is the original Hebrew version of Samuel. ]
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2020, 08:55:35 AM
Which is tied into the decline of manufacturing and the rise of service jobs, and a direct link to stagnant wages. It's a lot easier for a union to negotiate with National Widget with its factories in Anytown US than 100 Widgets'R'Us franchisees selling products made overseas.
No, the rise of the service sectors also took place in Europe, of course. Denmark for example has one of the world's biggest, percentage-wise, and it comprises most of the private jobs. Unions are just as relevant for the service sectors. It's a politically/culturally charged thing.
Cori Bush Defeats Lacy Clay!
No excuses anymore. Progressives can win anywhere!
Quote from: 71 dB on August 04, 2020, 09:16:53 AM
I jump out now because the discussion is getting more and more annoying.
People on the left: what right-leaning policies would you accept in trade for what left-leaning policies?
People on the right: what left wing policies would you accept in trade for what right-leaning policies?
For me, I prioritize global warming leadership and wallet policies like healthcare and education costs.
I'd let conservatives have abortion prohibitions and guns in places that want them.
I don't know what the trades are in foreign policy. It seems like spending there isn't a left-right issue but an issue of pork across the board.
I also don't know what the argument is for the massive transfer of wealth (over recent decades) into the hands of so few or how it can be reversed without heavy-handed government intervention in the form of wasteful policies that don't seem to really work.
I think the left should abandon all affirmative action policies yet things seem to be moving in the opposite direction as more demands are made to solidify the concept of "race" as an indelible feature of American life and policy.
Who is the worst candidate for VP? Is it Bass with her love of Cuban style communism and scientology or Kamala Harris who never met a big-money donor that couldn't sway her to bend toward their will?
Herman,
1) I did not specify for how long will I be out: 10 minutes? 10 hours? 10 days? Permanently?
2) I jumped out of the particular discussion, not US politics altogether. I am still out of that discussion, am I not?
3) Why the f**k do people monitor my actions so closely? You have nothing better to do? What the f**k I'm I supposed to do? If my opinions or actions don't please you then tough cookies!
The reason why is you explained some time ago in a special post that the excitement of political discussions truly caused suffering for you.
I don't want you to suffer over an issue you can do nothing about, i.e. USA politics.
I know America has influence over the entire world, four more years of Trump would for instance be devastating for the world's environment. However, getting mad online, from far away, won't change anything. In another way that's bad for the environment, too.
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2020, 06:20:04 PM
As seen on Twitter, inspired by Trump's version of a celebrated national park.
"Yo Semite Shmuel"
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Een02ANXgAAVusC?format=jpg&name=small)
[Shmuel is the original Hebrew version of Samuel. ]
(* chortle *)
Quote from: milk on August 05, 2020, 04:29:40 AM
People on the left: what right-leaning policies would you accept in trade for what left-leaning policies?
Generally speaking I do not believe in drawing lines in the sand. The defenders of the Alamo did it and it got all of them killed.
My strongest feelings is for being pro-choice. This is just my personal opinion but I would consider restrictions on abortions if the state would assume all the cost for the pregnancy.
The problem with comprise is when one side or the other believe they are carrying out "The Will of God".
Quote from: 71 dB on August 05, 2020, 02:12:33 AM
Cori Bush Defeats Lacy Clay!
No excuses anymore. Progressives can win anywhere!
This took place in a progressive leaning area. So this is no proof of that.
Rashida Tlaib in fact defeated candidates who more progressive than she was.
Quote from: Herman on August 05, 2020, 05:55:58 AM
The reason why is you explained some time ago in a special post that the excitement of political discussions truly caused suffering for you.
I don't want you to suffer over an issue you can do nothing about, i.e. USA politics.
I know America has influence over the entire world, four more years of Trump would for instance be devastating for the world's environment. However, getting mad online, from far away, won't change anything. In another way that's bad for the environment, too.
Yes, before my "ban" this was the case, but during the hiatus I changed the way I deal with these things. For example I jumped out of the "economical dignity" discussion when I recognized it's getting annoying for me. Instead I listened to
Matthias Weckmann's music on Ricercar label. :)
Thanks for your concern, but at the moment I am not "suffering" any more than any reasonable person having to deal with the reality. Trump's presidency is excruciating to everyone everywhere in the World unless you are a Trumpist or one of his rich sycophants.
There is very little I can do something about, but I do have opinions and I express them regardless of the effect. I am kind of
hoping someone here who has been a moderate Democrat would get interested of lefties and progressives and perhaps watch some Youtube videos and see the light, but probably that won't happen, because it takes extreme talent to do something like that. People don't change overnight. It can take years. I
could be someone's seed for slow change here.
I am calm, not mad. I think the language I have been using reflects that.
Americans not supporting Medicare for all? Let's look at the numbers:
https://www.newsweek.com/87-democrats-support-medicare-all-though-joe-biden-doesnt-1522833 (https://www.newsweek.com/87-democrats-support-medicare-all-though-joe-biden-doesnt-1522833)
87 % of Democratic voters support M4a
69 % of Independents support M4a
43 % of Republican voters support M4a
In total, Medicare for All was supported by 67 % of registered voters and opposed by 33 %.
The Hill-HarrisX poll carried a sampling margin of error of plus or minus 3.18 percentage points.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 05, 2020, 11:04:38 AM
Thanks for your concern, but at the moment I am not "suffering" any more than any reasonable person having to deal with the reality. Trump's presidency is excruciating to everyone everywhere in the World unless you are a Trumpist or one of his rich sycophants.
I know. However, it seems therapists in NYC had a lot more business in the Trump years (I'm talking as if they're already over) from people who were so angry and upset about A) an idiot like Trump being president and B) the filthy stuff he's saying and tweeting on a daily basis. If you have young children you need to explain almost daily that No it's not normal to say that kind of shit.
But that's no way to live, especially if you're not in the US and you have to actively go online to look for that filthy stuff. So I decided at some point to scale back exposure to Trump crap and concentrate on something completely different (Ancient Greek literature) to sort of screen it out.
Pretty soon, with a little luck, it'll all be over. Trump will pardon himself and get the hell out of Dodge and rebuilding a peaceful world can start.
Trump campaign halts all TV ads?!
Aren't the "Biden is a puppet of the radical left" ads working? ;D Kyle Kulinski's response: "I wish!! I wish he was my puppet!" ;D
Ads show mayhem in Minnesota: "This is what Biden's America looks like!" Don't know about that, but we know it looks like that in Trump's America!
Quote from: Herman on August 05, 2020, 11:22:13 AM
I know. However, it seems therapists in NYC had a lot more business in the Trump years (I'm talking as if they're already over) from people who were so angry and upset about A) an idiot like Trump being president and B) the filthy stuff he's saying and tweeting on a daily basis. If you have young children you need to explain almost daily that No it's not normal to say that kind of shit.
But that's no way to live, especially if you're not in the US and you have to actively go online to look for that filthy stuff. So I decided at some point to scale back exposure to Trump crap and concentrate on something completely different (Ancient Greek literature) to sort of screen it out.
Pretty soon, with a little luck, it'll all be over. Trump will pardon himself and get the hell out of Dodge and rebuilding a peaceful world can start.
A) Initially I was
gobsmacked by Trump's victory, but at the time I was pretty ignorant about US politics (I hardly even knew who Bernie Sanders is) and I started to follow it to understand what happened. It didn't take for long to learn the Dems are just as corrupt as the Reps and how the Clintons are totally corrupt. Together with the desperation for real change among Americans and oligarchic propaganda force-feeding corporate media I soon understood Trump's victory. I see Trump the symptom of a sick system. I am more angry to the whole US political system and corruption than I am to Trump. Removing Trump from the White House is only the first step of many if the US is to transform itself into a prosperous social democracy.
B) That filty stuff he keeps tweeting doesn't harm much regular people beyond having to instruct children. Decorum doesn't pay anyone's bills or give anyone healthcare. Trump destroying protections against pre-existing conditions and sabotaging ObamaCare so that millions lost their coverage is the stuff that harms regular people, a lot. The corporate media and the establishment tend to attack Trump for the silly stuff like mean tweets, because they agree with Trump on politics. They are all members of the top 1 % benefitting from the sick rigged system.
Ancient Greek literature is a great alternative to Trump's Twitter account! ;)
Unfortunately Biden in the White House doesn't make it easy to build a peaceful World. The military industry complex will take care of that. The US needed Bernard Sanders in the oval office, but sadly blew it so Americans will keep paying taxes to bomb brown people overseas instead of medicare for all and tuition free education. At this point while watching the chaos in the US I'm leaning on thinking: "Well, it's basically 327 million people shooting themselves in the foot so 3 million "crooks" can maintain their oligarchy." This year I finally realized the US is not a real first World country, but a country pretending to be one. Many third World countries don't have proper healthcare system so, how could the US? Well-functioning healthcare is typically a "first World" thing after all... ...but yes, at least Biden knows how to show the middle finger to regular people (2/3 of them wanting medicare for all) politely. :P
Reports say Rice or Harris. I'm fearing Harris. I just think she's awful. Who knows about Rice's political skills? Does she have any? She's never run for anything.
Quote from: milk on August 05, 2020, 04:32:16 AM
Who is the worst candidate for VP? Is it Bass with her love of Cuban style communism and scientology or Kamala Harris who never met a big-money donor that couldn't sway her to bend toward their will?
What are some examples of this? Not arguing, really asking.
Quote from: milk on August 05, 2020, 05:20:32 PM
Reports say Rice or Harris. I'm fearing Harris. I just think she's awful. Who knows about Rice's political skills? Does she have any? She's never run for anything.
that probably means it's going to be Harris.
Quote from: milk on August 05, 2020, 05:20:32 PM
Reports say Rice or Harris. I'm fearing Harris. I just think she's awful. Who knows about Rice's political skills? Does she have any? She's never run for anything.
The big problem with Rice is her role in Clinton/Obama foreign policy. She's never run for office so it's hard to say what her political strengths and weaknesses are.
Quote from: JBS on August 05, 2020, 05:57:56 PM
The big problem with Rice is her role in Clinton/Obama foreign policy.
That's not much of a problem. Dems have zero interest in Benghazification. The ones who are won't vote for Biden.
Biden has high regard for her, and that counts. I think people want to see someone who could be President in a crisis. Rice fills the bill better than some of the others.
Quote from: drogulus on August 05, 2020, 06:39:38 PM
That's not much of a problem. Dems have zero interest in Beghazification. The ones who are won't vote for Biden.
Biden has high regard for her, and that counts. I think people want to see someone who could be President in a crisis. Rice fills the bill better than some of the others.
I suspect a Bernie Bro might not be tolerant of her.
Unemployment in my neighborhood is 12% according to the NY failing Times.
Quote from: JBS on August 05, 2020, 07:20:32 PM
I suspect a Bernie Bro might not be tolerant of her.
That's not a voting bloc Biden needs to woo. That fight's over.
It's down to Harris and Rice, according to several people close to Biden. My view is Harris is a campaign choice and Rice is a governing choice.
Why isn't Harris a governing choice? Not arguing, asking.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 05, 2020, 07:53:23 PM
Why isn't Harris a governing choice? Not arguing, asking.
By choosing Harris he gets a strong campaigner who is an able attack dog. Choosing Rice indicates to me that Biden is looking past the election to assembling a high quality governing team. If I thought I was going to win I'd be thinking ahead, and Rice makes sense from that angle.
But that didn't answer my question. Why do you feel Harris can't govern?
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 05, 2020, 08:18:15 PM
But that didn't answer my question. Why do you feel Harris can't govern?
I don't feel that. What I think is that Harris is a good choice to run for VP, and Rice is a good choice to be VP.
Quote from: drogulus on August 05, 2020, 07:29:22 PM
Unemployment in my neighborhood is 12% according to the NY failing Times.
That's not a voting bloc Biden needs to woo. That fight's over.
Oh, Biden definitely needs to keep every single Bernie Bro and Sister on board, because he needs a landslide. Otherwise the vote goes to the SCOTUS.
I have been reviewing some of the conservative posts and they keep ignoring the fact that the modern conservative movement has been dominating the United States for twenty-five years. There has been no effort to try the control gun violence. Unions have been effectively neutered. Most efforts to control climate change has been shot down. At the most progressives only make up 25% of the electorate. The Affordable Care Act and Roe v Wade is under attack and could be overturned by the Supreme Court. There are conservatives who are trying to dismantle the United States Postal Service and Social Security. Since we have not been in charge for two decades I have problems with understanding how our policies are responsible for the mess we are in.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 05, 2020, 08:18:15 PM
Why do you feel Harris can't govern?
If you really are interested:
https://medium.com/@moon_bat/the-troubling-past-of-kamala-harris-f017207333cb (https://medium.com/@moon_bat/the-troubling-past-of-kamala-harris-f017207333cb)
There is a reason why the left calls her
Cop-mala Harris. Also, this tell everything about her integrity:
Summer 2019: "I was that girl!"
Summer 2020: "Please pick me as your VP!"
She could say she is not avalable for VP for Biden because she was that girl, but she hasn't, has she?
I didn't ask you and I don't respect your opinion on the subject.
And the "left" doesn't call her that. Only idiots who can't construct a portmanteau either correctly or wittily call her that.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 06, 2020, 03:09:49 AM
Also, this tell everything about her integrity:
Summer 2019: "I was that girl!"
Summer 2020: "Please pick me as your VP!"
She could say she is not available for VP for Biden because she was that girl, but she hasn't, has she?
If the idea was that the little girl on the bus was underrepresented, it makes 100% sense to say you want to be VP or in the cabinet.
If you want lilly white "integrity" you should not go into politics but rather stay at home.
Quote from: Herman on August 05, 2020, 11:16:54 PM
Oh, Biden definitely needs to keep every single Bernie Bro and Sister on board, because he needs a landslide. Otherwise the vote goes to the SCOTUS.
At the moment Trump is doing a good job giving Biden a landslide victory... :P
Quote from: arpeggio on August 06, 2020, 12:46:01 AM
I have been reviewing some of the conservative posts and they keep ignoring the fact that the modern conservative movement has been dominating the United States for twenty-five years.
For over 40 years the US politics has been dominated by
oligarchs ever since Buckley v. Valeo, the landmark decision of the US Supreme Court on campaign finance (1976). Back then the Republicans used to be economically where the corporate Dems are today because the sick system has been pushing both parties to the right. Obama gave the people a Republican healthcare system from the 80's as a result of this.
Most of the ultra-rich people and corporations don't care about social issues. Do you think billionaires care at all regular people have abortions or not? No, they don't care at all! Issues such as abortion are to fool people to think they have a choice when they vote: Choice between socially liberal and socially conservative. In reality it doesn't matter much whether you vote for the Republicans or corporate Democrats. In both cases the Banks get bailed out, military budget gets increased etc. Both are easily bought to oppose medicare for all for example. The point is to have no real lefty party in power, one that would give medicare for all to the people and end the insurance company/Big Pharma price gouging mafia. Now people on the left are "forced" to vote for Biden to get rid of Trump, but Biden is a candidate who agrees about almost
nothing with them! In blue states people can perhaps vote for Howie Hawkins, but what does it change? The crazy thing is if we go issue by issue Americans probably agree with Howie Hawkins more than Trump or Biden, but the rigged system makes sure Howie Hawkins doesn't have a chance in hell. Economically the Republicans and corporate Democratc offer a little bit different degrees of
"Corporate socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for regular people".Quote from: arpeggio on August 06, 2020, 12:46:01 AMThere has been no effort to try the control gun violence. Unions have been effectively neutered. Most efforts to control climate change has been shot down. At the most progressives only make up 25% of the electorate. The Affordable Care Act and Roe v Wade is under attack and could be overturned by the Supreme Court. There are conservatives who are trying to dismantle the United States Postal Service and Social Security. Since we have not been in charge for two decades I have problems with understanding how our policies are responsible for the mess we are in.
NRA has bought the Republican party completely so all they need is to have
some Democrats on their side to stop gun regulation despite over 90 % of Americans supporting at least some gun regulation legistlation. In oligarchy unions are the first to be destroyed. At least Biden would bring the US back to the Paris climate agreement. It has been a long long time since the US politics has been progressive. FDR? Maybe there was
some progressive things going on up until mid 70's? The oligarchs and "believe in nothing but money and power" politicians are 100 % responsible for the mess today.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 06, 2020, 03:25:29 AM
I didn't ask you and I don't respect your opinion on the subject.
Sure, you don't need to respect
my opinions, but the link I gave isn't "my opinion", but an article about the problematic past of Kamala Harris providing an insight why she may not be a superb VP pick because "governing" doesn't seem to be her forte.
Can't we drop this "2+2 is not 4 when a lefty says so" silliness. Why is the link I gave "not to be respected"? Just because I linked it?
I consider myself a lefty.
I consider you someone who is proud to say he doesn't read books.
I jump out of this before it escalates. :)
There can be a price to pay in wooing the last voter among the Bernie Bros. That price could be 2 votes elsewhere.
Appeared first in the NYT, reprised by other news outlets. Opinion by a Toronto Star columnist with video (must watch) from the YT:
https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/opinion/2020/08/05/allan-lichtman-the-nostradamus-who-has-accurately-predicted-us-elections-for-40-years-sees-president-joe-biden-in-his-crystal-ball.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_you (https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/opinion/2020/08/05/allan-lichtman-the-nostradamus-who-has-accurately-predicted-us-elections-for-40-years-sees-president-joe-biden-in-his-crystal-ball.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_you)
Quote from: André on August 06, 2020, 05:20:58 AM
Appeared first in the NYT, reprised by other news outlets. Opinion by a Toronto Star columnist with video (must watch) from the YT:
https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/opinion/2020/08/05/allan-lichtman-the-nostradamus-who-has-accurately-predicted-us-elections-for-40-years-sees-president-joe-biden-in-his-crystal-ball.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_you (https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/opinion/2020/08/05/allan-lichtman-the-nostradamus-who-has-accurately-predicted-us-elections-for-40-years-sees-president-joe-biden-in-his-crystal-ball.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_you)
What a bold prediction.
Trump has several things going for him.
He understands the American electoral system and how to exploit it.
He is a superb con man.
Quote from: Todd on August 06, 2020, 05:27:48 AM
What a bold prediction.
Sure, it's not going to win the Nostradamus Prize :P.
His « 13 keys model » is an intriguing concept. Could only work in the US, though.
Quote from: André on August 06, 2020, 09:08:30 AMHis « 13 keys model » is an intriguing concept. Could only work in the US, though.
He received some press attention after Trump won, precisely because he was one of very few people who called it. The circumstances that existed in 2016 were unique, capped off by just about the worst candidate Dems could have selected. While 2020 is unique, it is less comparatively unique. The US has gone through the one-two punch of pandemic and depression before, and last time the White House switched parties.
Of course Lichtman's approach would work only for the US. That is what it is designed for. It accounts for the US Constitutional framework and recurring electoral trends with respect to Congress and the presidency. Non-American observers continually fail to properly account for the unique political landscape of the US. Political life under a parliamentary system is rather different.
Based on my "the bad guy always wins" premiss I predicted, from afar, that Trump would beat Hilary, back in 2016.
People said I was crazy.
I'm not making any predictions this time.
Quote from: Herman on August 06, 2020, 11:58:59 AM
Based on my "the bad guy always wins" premiss I predicted
Hillary lost.
Troll satanically laughing at each and every post he writes.
Quote from: Herman on August 06, 2020, 01:49:07 PM
Troll satanically laughing at each and every post he writes.
Yeah, whatever blanches his almonds....
Satan. That's rough stuff.
New York Attorney General Sues N.R.A. and Seeks Its Closure (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/06/us/ny-nra-lawsuit-letitia-james.html)
This election year needed another big wedge issue to flare up. Oh yeah!
Quote from: Todd on August 06, 2020, 01:54:01 PM
Satan. That's rough stuff.
Quote from: Herman on August 06, 2020, 01:49:07 PM
Troll Satanically Laughing
This is the name of the black metal band that Todd is secretly a part of, I wonder how'd you know?
Perhaps the word of the human sacrificial rituals during concerts which take place underground has gotten out already...
Here's the logo:
Quote from: greg on August 06, 2020, 05:50:52 PMThis is the name of the black metal band that Todd is secretly a part of, I wonder how'd you know?
I was kicked out after the second album. Creative differences.
Quote from: Herman on August 06, 2020, 11:58:59 AM
Based on my "the bad guy always wins" premiss I predicted, from afar, that Trump would beat Hilary, back in 2016.
People said I was crazy.
I'm not making any predictions this time.
Kyle Kulinski said before Trump got the Republican party nomination he could win he presidency. It's about looking at the facts such as polls and demographics and analysing them instead of believing the out-of-touch establishment garbage of corporate media. Anyone who saw how Trump's fake populist rethoric works well in the important rust belt while Hillary Clinton's entitled corporatism doesn't was able to see Trump has a real chance. Hillary Clinton ignored the rust belt and didn't know how to respond to Trump's fake populism and that's why she lost.
Biden is a huge favorite this time around because Trump has been so horrible handling coronavirus and he can't "hide" or "smear" it. People have lost their jobs for real. People have died for real. People have lost their employer-tied healthcare for real. People are facing an eviction crisis for real. Trump has lost his political instincts. Four years ago he was the "outsider who makes America Great Again". Now he is an
insider who has had years to make America Great Again, but for most Americans the country looks anything but Great. Trump has got his base, about 1/3 of the country and that's it. The ads against Trump are devastating. Trump is humiliating himself and exposing his idiocy on daily basis (the Jonathan Swan interview was legendary stuff, like watching "Curb Your Enthusiams"). Biden can hide in the cellar until the election and take an easy victory... ...that's how it's right now and things can change but for now it looks very good for Biden.
Straight from the horse's mouth:Employment Situation News Release (https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/empsit_08072020.htm)
Quote from: BLSTotal nonfarm payroll employment rose by 1.8 million in July, and the unemployment
rate fell to 10.2 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. These
improvements in the labor market reflected the continued resumption of economic
activity that had been curtailed due to the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic and
efforts to contain it. In July, notable job gains occurred in leisure and hospitality,
government, retail trade, professional and business services, other services, and
health care.
U3 = 10.2% = Super Creepy 46.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2020, 04:39:35 AM
Straight from the horse's mouth:Employment Situation News Release (https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/empsit_08072020.htm)
U3 = 10.2% = Super Creepy 46.
U3 is used because it looks nicer, but U5 and U6 unemployment numbers give better picture. U6 = 16.5 %.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 07, 2020, 05:29:22 AM
U3 is used because it looks nicer, but U5 and U6 unemployment numbers give better picture.
Only sort of correct.
However, if 10.2% = Super-Creepy 46, then 16.5% = Super-Creepy 46.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2020, 05:34:17 AM
However, if 10.2% = Super-Creepy 46, then 16.5% = Super-Creepy 46.
Yes, but the alternative for Super-Creepy 46 is four more years of Clown 45. :P
I am not making a value judgment here, just demonstrating a tried and true political equation.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 07, 2020, 01:33:53 AM
Kyle Kulinski said before Trump got the Republican party nomination he could win he presidency. It's about looking at the facts such as polls and demographics and analysing them instead of believing the out-of-touch establishment garbage of corporate media. Anyone who saw how Trump's fake populist rethoric works well in the important rust belt while Hillary Clinton's entitled corporatism doesn't was able to see Trump has a real chance. Hillary Clinton ignored the rust belt and didn't know how to respond to Trump's fake populism and that's why she lost.
I don't want to go into a whole discussion, but I'd like to remind you that if people disliked Hillary so much it's a little strange she got 3 million more votes than Trump.
She lost Michigan by the size a small town's votes, 50K or something.
If that idiot Comey* hadn't felt compelled to appear as the White Knight with his announcement about Hillary's bleeding emails (or what was it?) chances are she would have won. And as a consequence tens of thousands wouldn't have died of Covid.
In other words, it wasn't her meagre likeability ('entitled corporatism') that hurt her chances, because Trump didn't have any likeability either.
* And this vain man felt the world needed him to write a book about himself, too.
Yes, it was Comey's fault. That's it.
Anyway, instead of forever living in the past, it's best to live in the here and now:
Intelligence community's top election official: China and Iran don't want Trump to win reelection, Russia working against Biden (https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/07/politics/2020-election-russia-china-iran/index.html)
No matter the election outcome, at least one onerous regime will be displeased. Woo-hoo!
Quote from: Herman on August 07, 2020, 09:09:46 AM
I don't want to go into a whole discussion, but I'd like to remind you that if people disliked Hillary so much it's a little strange she got 3 million more votes than Trump.
She lost Michigan by the size a small town's votes, 50K or something.
If that idiot Comey* hadn't felt compelled to appear as the White Knight with his announcement about Hillary's bleeding emails (or what was it?) chances are she would have won. And as a consequence tens of thousands wouldn't have died of Covid.
In other words, it wasn't her meagre likeability ('entitled corporatism') that hurt her chances, because Trump didn't have any likeability either.
* And this vain man felt the world needed him to write a book about himself, too.
Trump had
some likeability so that some two time Obama voters voted for him instead of H. C. and Trump was hated the most where it didn't really matter. If you are gonno lose a State anyway it doesn't matter how much you lose as long as you win enough States to win the electorate vote.
People who have lost their well paying industrial jobs are not going to vote for someone who supports the trade deals that caused the outsourcing. They are going to vote for the dude who promises (lies in the case of Trump) to bring pack those jobs. H.C. could have lied too, or at least undercut Trump's credibility on the issue ("I'm not bringing those jobs back but so isn't Trump"), but she didn't. Instead she repeated platitudes such as "Stronger together" thinking probably it is still 1992, but it was 2016, the age of political populism and she didn't even try to be a populist so she lost to a fake populist.
One important thing
In 2016 people expected that if Trump was elected, GOP establishment would keep him from going off the rails, and put up some opposition to any truly wrong headed or ignorant thing he did, and not act as they actually have since Jan 2017.
The Unraveling of America
"...to live in Canada today is like owning an apartment above a meth lab."
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/covid-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206/ (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/covid-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206/)
One of the big mistakes many Trump supporters make is to assume that liberals are dumber than they really are.
We know Trump won the election.
For example, a few months ago on Bill Maher's show they had a conservative who insisted that Democrats were mad because they thought Hillary actually won the election. The other liberals on the panel spent five minutes trying to convince him that they knew Trump won.
There are many reasons why Trump won. Most of us realize that it was not just Comey. It was the combination of many factors including some mistakes by the Clinton campaign.
There are third party candidates.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jimantle/status/1291898086541930503
QuoteThe 2020 Libertarian Party presidential nominee has been bitten by a possibly rabid bat
Quote from: arpeggio on August 07, 2020, 04:53:44 PM
There are many reasons why Trump won. Most of us realize that it was not just Comey. It was the combination of many factors including some mistakes by the Clinton campaign.
Of course it was stupid of Hillary not to visit MI and WI more often in the summer of 2016. Obviously there was some entrenched thinking that the Rust Belt would be in her column, if only because of Bill's former popularity there.
All campaign do stupid things and make mistakes.
Comey's announcement was an unique event in modern election history and it's pretty amazing that he's been accepted for some time after as a person to take seriously.
The bottom line is that Trump won and Clinton lost.
I am tired of Trump supporters with their simplistic logic who think we do not understand that.
Quote from: milk on August 07, 2020, 04:05:28 PM
The Unraveling of America
"...to live in Canada today is like owning an apartment above a meth lab."
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/covid-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206/ (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/covid-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206/)
"This has nothing to do with political ideology, and everything to do with the quality of life. Finns live longer and are less likely to die in childhood or in giving birth than Americans. Danes earn roughly the same after-tax income as Americans, while working 20 percent less. They pay in taxes an extra 19 cents for every dollar earned. But in return they get free health care, free education from pre-school through university, and the opportunity to prosper in a thriving free-market economy with dramatically lower levels of poverty, homelessness, crime, and inequality. The average worker is paid better, treated more respectfully, and rewarded with life insurance, pension plans, maternity leave, and six weeks of paid vacation a year. All of these benefits only inspire Danes to work harder, with fully 80 percent of men and women aged 16 to 64 engaged in the labor force, a figure far higher than that of the United States..."
"... If and when the Chinese are ascendant, with their concentration camps for the Uighurs, the ruthless reach of their military, their 200 million surveillance cameras watching every move and gesture of their people, we will surely long for the best years of the American century. For the moment, we have only the kleptocracy of Donald Trump. Between praising the Chinese for their treatment of the Uighurs, describing their internment and torture as "exactly the right thing to do," and his dispensing of medical advice concerning the therapeutic use of chemical disinfectants, Trump blithely remarked, "One day, it's like a miracle, it will disappear." He had in mind, of course, the coronavirus, but, as others have said, he might just as well have been referring to the American dream."
Marquita Bradshaw (http://marquita%20bradshaw) won the Democratic Primary in Tennessee! :)
"Working people showed that my viability was different. I knew it was going to happen. I could see the momentum."
Marquita Bradshaw
Democratic Senate Candidate
Quote from: 71 dB on August 08, 2020, 05:34:34 AM
Marquita Bradshaw (http://marquita%20bradshaw) won the Democratic Primary in Tennessee! :)
"Working people showed that my viability was different. I knew it was going to happen. I could see the momentum."
Marquita Bradshaw
Democratic Senate Candidate
Reality check
Tennessee has not elected a Democrat to the Senate in 26 years.
Progressives winning primaries is a very different thing from progressives winning general elections.
Quote from: JBS on August 08, 2020, 05:45:31 AM
Reality check
Tennessee has not elected a Democrat to the Senate in 26 years.
Progressives winning primaries is a very different thing from progressives winning general elections.
That's true. She has a long long way to win Bill Hagerty. However, she did beat corporates in the primary dispate of massive financial disadvantage. Just imagine if the lefties had the same kind of money to spend in these elections. Progressives also often suffer from lack of name recognition, but if they keep showing up election after election eventually they have enough name recognition to win (e.g. Cori Bush did not have enough name recognition in 2018 to win the primary but now she did).
If it just took money to win elections, Bloomberg would be the Dem nominee.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 08, 2020, 07:09:36 AM
If it just took money to win elections, Bloomberg would be the Dem nominee.
Money is not 100 % of it, but it helps a lot. Do you think Bloomberg would have run if he wasn't a billionaire? He got quite high in the polls in same States despite of starting his run very late thanks to carpet-bombing the airwaves with adds wasting hundreds of millions of dollars he could have spent better, for example to fight homelessness. $500 million gets a lot of people under the a roof. Money didn't help Bloomberg more, because outside the establishment circles almost nobody wants president Bloomberg to micromanage their lives banning sodas etc.
Instead of money the left has grassroot enthusiams, volunteers knocking the doors and speading the progressive message.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 08, 2020, 08:27:23 AM
wasting hundreds of millions of dollars he could have spent better, for example to fight homelessness. $500 million gets a lot of people under the a roof.
QuoteInstead of money the left has grassroot enthusiams, volunteers knocking the doors and speading the progressive message.
Too bad however these young progressives have a marked habit of not turning up on Election Day, because the candidate is just not 100% their thing, thereby giving the WH to a candidate who is 0% their thing.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 08, 2020, 07:09:36 AM
If it just took money to win elections, Bloomberg would be the Dem nominee.
I voted for Bloomberg in the primary because:
1. The Democratic field was so exasperatingly weak.
2. Bloomberg at least had political experience as a not a terrible mayor of New York.
3. I concluded that the only candidate that would frighten a fake millionaire was a real billionaire.
Students Support Socialism... Until It's Applied To Their GPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCPcM8GlptM
You know, I really don't like videos like this... title sounds great until you realize it's a false equivalency.
You can't inherit GPA. But you can inherit wealth. And you can be given "a small loan of a million dollars," or let's be more typical, a "small" loan of $50,000 or $100,000. Or a house.
But when you are given nothing and expected to provide everything (ie provide for a family), or hell, even just providing for oneself, it's an uphill battle all the way. You just aren't even in the competition if you start so far behind due to no fault of your own.
This is what the problem is: it's not meritocracy, at all. Wealth inheritance undermines that completely.
It's weird that conservative argue for meritocracy but have no problems with wealth inheritance. And that liberals argue that race/gender are more important, which is just as nonsensical.
In the US it's usually the case that when you graduate high school, you have to get a car to get a job. But to get a car, you need a job. And if your parents can't afford a car for you, then it's just a battle from the start. Meanwhile, the next guy down the road has everything paid for, school, a car, doesn't need to work so he can spend his free time starting up his own business or doing something else, while most of us spend 60-70 hours a week with school and work, and have to spend so many years just to get to the point where that guy started.
My wife and I were discussing the state of affairs and she has an interesting theory. For generations we Americans thought we were the greatest nation in the world. As a result of the current state affairs, especially with the way we have failed to deal with the virus, it has become clear that we are not longer on top. Although there were some of us who saw this coming, many Americans are stunned and in denial. I think she has a point.
Just in case anyone doesn't already have enough podcasts to listen to...
The latest episode of The Nostalgia Trap is a fascinating interview with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about her book "Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation":
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-nostalgia-trap/e/76723897?autoplay=true
Trump Signs Four Executive Orders For Economic Relief - Here Is How They Will Affect You (https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2020/08/08/trump-signs-four-executive-orders-for-economic-relief---here-is-how-they-will-affect-you/#78a34265de3f)
Trump takes bold unilateral action! Now, when will he sign an executive order that helps me? I want federal handouts as much as the next guy.
Quote from: geralmar on August 08, 2020, 11:00:54 AM
I voted for Bloomberg in the primary because:
1. The Democratic field was so exasperatingly weak.
2. Bloomberg at least had political experience as a not a terrible mayor of New York.
3. I concluded that the only candidate that would frighten a fake millionaire was a real billionaire.
Reasonable
It's hard to make a 100% judgement based on this because of the censor blur, but based on what I can tell, they shot the guy within seconds after he answered the door.
He did have a gun, but didn't look like he was pointing it (hard to tell from the blur). He was trying to put it down, that much you can see.
I heard that he had it due to burglars in the area (anyone could say they are "Phoenix Police", then step away from the peephole so they aren't visible, and then ambush them, so he tried to put the gun away but wasn't given a chance).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49P9TuFLOQ
But there will be no large-scale protests about this. This isn't going to broadcast repeatedly on CNN (seems they haven't ran a story about it, which is probably why I didn't hear about this until now).
Why? Because he's white. Seems there is more profit in race baiting rather than police brutality, maybe?
The police arrived because it was a noise complaint (arguing and playing Crash Bandicoot too loud, which is a bit weird since it's not a very loud game). I mean, the "Road to Nowhere" level is hard enough to make you scream at top volume, of course, but getting murdered for it? Nah...
Quote from: geralmar on August 08, 2020, 11:00:54 AM
I voted for Bloomberg in the primary because:
1. The Democratic field was so exasperatingly weak.
2. Bloomberg at least had political experience as a not a terrible mayor of New York.
3. I concluded that the only candidate that would frighten a fake millionaire was a real billionaire.
I loved his speech at the Hillary convention. "I know a con man when I see one."
Noam Chomsky makes the case for Biden.
https://youtube.com/v/HhAU-YCk3Y0
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 04:09:02 PM
My wife and I were discussing the state of affairs and she has an interesting theory. For generations we Americans thought we were the greatest nation in the world. As a result of the current state affairs, especially with the way we have failed to deal with the virus, it has become clear that we are not longer on top. Although there were some of us who saw this coming, many Americans are stunned and in denial. I think she has a point.
If the US ever was on top it was long long ago. 1950s? 60s? It's simply amazing to see how unaware many Americans are about how badly they are screwed. When we non-Americans try to speak about these things we are called clueless. :-\
Coronavirus has been devastating to the whole World, but the US is among the countries where it has been especially devastating. If anything good comes out of this it's Americans realizing how sick their political system is. In what kind of country do Americans want to live in?
I really do not know what can be done to turn things around for us. Even if Biden wins, it will take us years to undo the damage that has been done.
There have been several conservatives who have written books about the decline of the Republican party and conservative movement. According to their analysis it is religion that has done us in. At one time the Republican Party was a secular party. Since the time of Reagan it has become a religious party dominated by fundamentalist Christians. Although some of the conservatives have objected to me bringing this point up but the majority of Republicans do not believe in Darwin and think the world is only 10,000 years old. I have relatives in North Carolina who believe this. When we were driving to visit relatives in North Carolina we actually was a billboard thanking Jesus for making Trump President.
The Republicans who believe in science have boxed themselves into a corner. They can not bring themselves to admit the fundamentalists have destroyed their party but can not bring themselves to realize that the Democrats and progressives in our county are not as evil as they think we are.
My brother, who is a big supporter of Trump, still believes that liberals have ruined the county even though conservatives have dominated this county for twenty-five years. When I have tried to discuss this with him it is like talking to a brick wall.
These are people who believe they are carrying out the will of God.
My wife feels that these people may not admit it but they realize that Trump and their agenda have messed up our great country.
I think what has happened in the State of Virginia may be a sign of hope. For decades modern conservatives have controlled the State Government. There control has been gradually eroding to the point in the last state election liberals have taken control of the state house, the state senate, the attorney general, the lieutenant governor and the governor. Our governor is an MD and as a result we have done a better job of controlling the virus than most states.
I live in Northern Virginia and it is still scary in my part of the state. My wife and I are both in our seventies and as a cancer survivor I am at a high risk. I have no problem admitting to the Trumpsters around here that I am scared. And I do not think I am being paranoid about it. It would be nice if they were only putting themselves at risk but their irresponsible behavior is putting at risk the life of my wife and me as well.
I have already lost one friend to this disease. How many of us have to die before the modern conservatives admit that their agenda is a bust.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PM
How many of us have to die before the modern conservatives admit that their agenda is a bust.
it won't make any difference. They'll never admit they were wrong.
Stay safe, please.
Quote from: greg on August 08, 2020, 04:42:24 PM
It's hard to make a 100% judgement based on this because of the censor blur, but based on what I can tell, they shot the guy within seconds after he answered the door.
He did have a gun, but didn't look like he was pointing it (hard to tell from the blur). He was trying to put it down, that much you can see.
I heard that he had it due to burglars in the area (anyone could say they are "Phoenix Police", then step away from the peephole so they aren't visible, and then ambush them, so he tried to put the gun away but wasn't given a chance).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49P9TuFLOQ
But there will be no large-scale protests about this. This isn't going to broadcast repeatedly on CNN (seems they haven't ran a story about it, which is probably why I didn't hear about this until now).
Why? Because he's white. Seems there is more profit in race baiting rather than police brutality, maybe?
The police arrived because it was a noise complaint (arguing and playing Crash Bandicoot too loud, which is a bit weird since it's not a very loud game). I mean, the "Road to Nowhere" level is hard enough to make you scream at top volume, of course, but getting murdered for it? Nah...
Handing out guns to civilians - of any colour - is not a smart idea...
It makes everybody, including the police, trigger prone...
You guys have basically weaponised your entire civic society. And this what happens. You are not going to "defend" yourself against intruders, but you are going to be gunned down by police during a random low key encounter or by another civilian over a parking space.
Q
And all of this because of the pernicious influence of the NRA on the GOP, which is turning out (surprise!) yet another fraud scheme....
Sometimes one thinks the entire right wing, or, if you will, conservative bloc (the GOP, the NRA, the media, the crazy churches), resembles the old Soviet elite, all dinosaurs intent on enriching themselves to the detriment of the population. Obviously the way in which the GOP encourages Putin's Russia to further its cause is no coincidence. They're the same. So who is going to say "Tear Down this Wall"?
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PM
I really do not know what can be done to turn things around for us. Even if Biden wins, it will take us years to undo the damage that has been done.
If you don't care you simply do nothing. If you do care you fight for better tomorrow. Money in politics is the main issue. The politician won't work for regular people as long as they are bought by the rich and big corporations. Check out https://wolf-pac.com/ (https://wolf-pac.com/) for what can be done:
The Problem: The United States government is no longer accountable to the people.
The Solution: Add a 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that will ensure the integrity of the elections and establish a government accountable to the people.Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMThere have been several conservatives who have written books about the decline of the Republican party and conservative movement. According to their analysis it is religion that has done us in. At one time the Republican Party was a secular party. Since the time of Reagan it has become a religious party dominated by fundamentalist Christians. Although some of the conservatives have objected to me bringing this point up but the majority of Republicans do not believe in Darwin and think the world is only 10,000 years old. I have relatives in North Carolina who believe this. When we were driving to visit relatives in North Carolina we actually was a billboard thanking Jesus for making Trump President.
The Republicans don't have anything to offer to regular people on economic issues. So, they offer conservatism on social issue meaning racism, religion, etc. things that make people feel special, better and "chosen" so that they are blind to what The Republican politicians are really about (money and power for themselves). Corporate Dems aren't much better, but offer social liberalism instead of conservatism which makes them a bit less shitty.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMThe Republicans who believe in science have boxed themselves into a corner. They can not bring themselves to admit the fundamentalists have destroyed their party but can not bring themselves to realize that the Democrats and progressives in our county are not as evil as they think we are.
Well, humans are capable of upholding stunning cognitive dissonance... :P
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMMy brother, who is a big supporter of Trump, still believes that liberals have ruined the country even though conservatives have dominated this county for twenty-five years. When I have tried to discuss this with him it is like talking to a brick wall.
As I wrote here, oligarchs have dominated the US for 40+ years. The Dems are insanely weak in fighting the Reps because ultimately they are after the same thing: "more money and power for the top 1 %". In fact Trump is good for Nancy Pelosi and helps her raising money!
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMThese are people who believe they are carrying out the will of God.
Jesus would never approve the politics of the Republicans. Not even the pro-life nonsense, because the Bible is pro abortion, but of course the Republicans don't even know their "holy" book. The Republicans are pro fetus. After the birth they don't give a f**k.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMMy wife feels that these people may not admit it but they realize that Trump and their agenda have messed up our great country.
Trump has made a lot of damage, but things were already messy before Trump and that's why Trump happened. People are confused, frustrated and desperate so "outsider" Trump looks the solution for many.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMI think what has happened in the State of Virginia may be a sign of hope. For decades modern conservatives have controlled the State Government. There control has been gradually eroding to the point in the last state election liberals have taken control of the state house, the state senate, the attorney general, the lieutenant governor and the governor. Our governor is an MD and as a result we have done a better job of controlling the virus than most states.
The younger generations are much more open to lefty policies. In time things should get better, but unfortunately for example climate change is an issue requiring imminent actions. We don't have time.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMI live in Northern Virginia and it is still scary in my part of the state. My wife and I are both in our seventies and as a cancer survivor I am at a high risk. I have no problem admitting to the Trumpsters around here that I am scared. And I do not think I am being paranoid about it. It would be nice if they were only putting themselves at risk but their irresponsible behavior is putting at risk the life of my wife and me as well.
You certainly live in a scary situation and being scared is a sign of undertanding the situation. Practise all the safety measures with your wife and stay safe.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PMI have already lost one friend to this disease. How many of us have to die before the modern conservatives admit that their agenda is a bust.
Sorry about your lost! Some of the conservatives may see the light, but I'm afraid most of them will explain things to themselves in ways that don't reflect the reality.
Quote from: Que on August 09, 2020, 01:58:44 AM
You guys have basically weaponised your entire civic society.
Q
How many mass shootings (four or more people dead or injured) have there been in August alone in the US? The list doesn't go beyond August 5th, but has got no less than 12 entries. In August 4th there were no less than five mass shootings! Fortunately most victims of these shooting got only injured. In July 29th five people were killed when a man killed his wife and three children, aged 12, 10 and 6-years-old, and then himself in an apparent murder-suicide in Elyria, Ohio.
The US is practically a war-zone.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 09, 2020, 03:09:44 AMThe US is practically a war-zone.
The press sensationalizes stories. Online outlets amplify sensationalism. Some people fall prey to what they consume. They then create exaggerated and distorted views of the world. They believe their own ideas. Then they proselytize. New age propaganda is the best.
The Fragile Republic
American Democracy Has Never Faced So Many Threats All at Once (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-08-07/democracy-fragile-republic?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=fatoday&utm_campaign=The%20Fragile%20Republic&utm_content=20200807&utm_term=FA%20Today%20-%20112017)
Select quotes:
Quote from: Suzanne Mettler and Robert C. LiebermanAfter two centuries of struggle, the United States democratized. Not until the 1970s could the United States be called a truly robust and inclusive democracy...
These crises of democracy did not occur randomly. Rather, they developed in the presence of one or more of four specific threats: political polarization, conflict over who belongs in the political community, high and growing economic inequality, and excessive executive power. When those conditions are absent, democracy tends to flourish. When one or more of them are present, democracy is prone to decay.
Today, for the first time in its history, the United States faces all four threats at the same time. It is this unprecedented confluence—more than the rise to power of any particular leader—that lies behind the contemporary crisis of American democracy. The threats have grown deeply entrenched, and they will likely persist and wreak havoc for some time to come.
Actual intellectuals - ie, not the GMG kind - attempt to address systemic political issues in a serious fashion. This is a Reader's Digest treatment of a full length book, and the summary is mostly standard fare. The second and third blurbs are more or less run of the mill alarmism*, but the first bit is what caught my eye. If their thesis is correct, and the US did not become an inclusive democracy until the 1970s, and that is when even they admit that economic inequality in its current guise began to expand, what are the full implications of that idea? What types of meaningful policy choices are available, given that it is nearly universally accepted that some non-economic factors exacerbate economic inequality? The article does an unsatisfactory job of explaining that, which of course may make one want to buy the full-length book. Alas, at least in this trimmed down treatment, they get the starting year wrong (in the late 70s), just as they choose a rather iffy starting period for the rise of post-Civil War white supremacy. At least the dark lord Newt Gingrich makes a brief appearance here, and dastardly Republicans come in for accusatory rhetorical lashings, seeming to undermine the concern about polarization just a tad, so maybe the full length book could be worthwhile for some entertaining non-partisan-but-not-really analysis.
* Later in the article, the authors write hyperbolically "[a]nd in the face of political dysfunction and stalemate, the power of the executive branch has grown exponentially", weakening the soundness of at least one of their core arguments.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 04:09:02 PM
My wife and I were discussing the state of affairs and she has an interesting theory. For generations we Americans thought we were the greatest nation in the world. As a result of the current state affairs, especially with the way we have failed to deal with the virus, it has become clear that we are not longer on top. Although there were some of us who saw this coming, many Americans are stunned and in denial. I think she has a point.
Since the 1980s, the people in other developed nations have already noticed the poor education level and health conditions (obesity, diabete, etc) of American people. Inferior quality of American products as well. Nonetheless, Americans just assumed the greatest nation without looking at countries outside the U.S., or just denying the reality. The rising white nationalism, denial of pandemic, etc are largely and significantly caused by/tied to the declining education and income.
Still, the U.S.A. maintains the largest economy (based on debt), military budget. American scientists win largest number of Nobel prize and athletes win largest number of gold medals. Library of Congress is the largest library in the world. The so-called big 5 orchestras are respectable orchestras. Typical symptom of a declining military empire.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 08, 2020, 11:48:23 PM
I really do not know what can be done to turn things around for us. Even if Biden wins, it will take us years to undo the damage that has been done.
Very true.
That the Bible is pro-abortion is a take I did not expect to see, even here on GMG.
The Bible is in fact mostly silent on abortion, although the few references to anything related to the topic suggest it's not so zealously against abortion as religious writers seen to think.
Quote from: Que on August 09, 2020, 01:58:44 AM
Handing out guns to civilians - of any colour - is not a smart idea...
It makes everybody, including the police, trigger prone...
You guys have basically weaponised your entire civic society. And this what happens. You are not going to "defend" yourself against intruders, but you are going to be gunned down by police during a random low key encounter or by another civilian over a parking space.
Q
"Handing out guns" is a huge stretch.
Gun culture is a problem due to history. One's starting point often haunts them their entire life, just like how personality disorders start with people during their first few years of life. The US started with guns and slaves. So 200+ years later we have mass shootings/gun homicides, and racial tensions.
It would technically be impossible to just get rid of all of the guns here, so you'd have to just hope they don't fall into the wrong hands. And getting rid of people, like genocide, ehhh probably not a good idea lol.
I don't have much of a strong opinion about guns either way, btw. I would probably have more fun with larger scale destruction like rocket launchers, but alas. ;D
Quote from: greg on August 09, 2020, 08:05:12 PM
personality disorders start with people during their first few years of life.
Not true.
Quote from: Todd on August 09, 2020, 08:20:49 AM
The Fragile Republic
American Democracy Has Never Faced So Many Threats All at Once (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-08-07/democracy-fragile-republic?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=fatoday&utm_campaign=The%20Fragile%20Republic&utm_content=20200807&utm_term=FA%20Today%20-%20112017)
If their thesis is correct, and the US did not become an inclusive democracy until the 1970s, and that is when even they admit that economic inequality in its current guise began to expand, what are the full implications of that idea? What types of meaningful policy choices are available, given that it is nearly universally accepted that some non-economic factors exacerbate economic inequality?
What should we make of the backlash against democratization? One might think it's to be expected. That it should happen via the Repubs could be expected, too.
The backlash is indeed polarizing. Is identifying Repubs as the backlashers also polarizing? I guess if one wants to be against polarization there aren't a lot of options.
Quote from: greg on August 09, 2020, 08:05:12 PM
"Handing out guns" is a huge stretch.
I don't think so.
Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country)
Quote from: Que on August 10, 2020, 10:38:59 AM
I don't think so.
Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country)
Many countries have an impoverished sense of white liberty because they never slaughtered a native population or guarded against slave revolts. How could people understand property without these essential elements?
Quote from: Que on August 10, 2020, 10:38:59 AM
I don't think so.
It's standard internet hyperbole. People in the US have to buy their guns. It's a big business. If someone were to handout guns, I'd happily line up for the new Python. Let me know if you know where people are handing those out.
Now that Trump did not get his face carved on Mt Rushmore, he's going to give a Gettysburg Address, as an acceptance speech.
He's a parody president.
"Four years and seven scores ago...."
Quote from: drogulus on August 10, 2020, 02:15:13 PM
"Four years and seven scores ago...."
We need college football!!!!
Quote from: Herman on August 09, 2020, 10:13:54 PM
Not true.
Mostly true. Between birth and first few years (either nature or nurture, or both). Diagnoses comes much later. People don't just develop them suddenly, there is genetic predisposition and nurture (like seed and water). ASPD is mostly what comes to mind as an example.
Quote from: Dowder on August 10, 2020, 04:52:14 PM
Was abortion an issue in ancient times?
I refuse to believe that you are so clueless that you do not know the answer to this question.
Quote from: Dowder on August 10, 2020, 04:42:37 PM
Neither genocide or slavery originated in the New World.
No, but we were really really good at it, and we were doing it at home, not on the other side of the world. That's why property liberty has developed the way it has in America, so different from other countries. I made no assertion to the effect that Americans invented the tools we used so well.
The bottom line is that modern conservatives have been controlling this country for the past twenty-five years. They have succeeded in destroying unions, stifling progressives so they are at most just 20% of the electorate, dismantling the voting rights act, creating an oligarchy where 90% of the wealth is controlled by 1% of the country, police that are our of control, record number of people that are dying from gun violence and a failed health care system that has killed over 150,000 Americans.
Modern conservatives still control the Senate, the White house and the Supreme Court. Calling people silly names does not absolve conservatives of being responsible for creating the mess we are in.
You forgot to mention that Seinfeld was much better than Curb.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 10, 2020, 08:46:32 PM
The bottom line is that modern conservatives have been controlling this country for the past twenty-five years. They have succeeded in destroying unions, stifling progressives so they are at most just 20% of the electorate, dismantling the voting rights act, creating an oligarchy where 90% of the wealth is controlled by 1% of the country, police that are our of control, record number of people that are dying from gun violence and a failed health care system that has killed over 150,000 Americans.
Modern conservatives still control the Senate, the White house and the Supreme Court. Calling people silly names does not absolve conservatives of being responsible for creating the mess we are in.
The Dems had super-majority during Obama. What did they do with it? Did they restore unions? No. Did they fix the healthcare system creating single payer system ot at least public option? No, but some 20 million more people got insured + some other fixes (now dismantled by Trump). However, this was originally a Republican healthcare plan to protect the profits of insurance companies. Think about that: The Dems did the originally Republican healthcare system while they had super-majority! Do the corporate Dems support progressives? No! They fight the progressives much harder than the Republicans, e.g. sabotaging Bernie Sander's presidential changes twice. The donors tell the corporate Dems to do these evil things and the Overton window has been moving to the right.
The oligarchy has been created by the rich and big corporation by buying the politicians and telling them what to do and it all has been possible because of the "money is ok in politics" rulings in the supreme court. It all goes back for over 4 decades.
162,000+ American's have died of Coronavirus, but to be fair even in countries with the best healthcare system (e.g. UK) a lot of people have died, so we can't say all of these American victims of coronavirus are due to the for profit healthcare system.* Failure to protect the elderly from the virus seems to be the main thing explaining the death toll (e.g. Sweden) rather than the healthcare system. However, it is estimated 30,000-45,000 (some estimates even 68,000) Americans die every year because they don't have access to basic healthcare. People don't go to the doctor when they should because they can't afford it and when they finally go it's too late. This doesn't happen in other countries where people can afford going to doctor and health problems are addressed early on saving lives and resources. Assuming the US had had a single payer healthcare system for the last 40-50 years and 45,000 people would have not died thanks to it, we are talking about 2 million American victims of for profit healthcare, but at least the owners of big Pharma and insurance companies have nice houses and yachts, so there is that.
* A pandemic makes any kind of healthcare system struggle and how well the society prevents the spread of the virus is extremely important.
Quote from: geralmar on August 10, 2020, 07:00:20 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvLth5Lp/117339022-3332561546766743-5339826850710448243-n.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://postimages.org/)
To be fair, it is possible to find much better pictures of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Donald John Trump.
So I guess you think this is Putin's best picture ever?
Good to see inadvertent rehabilitation of the reputation of Stalin there. In the much and rightly feted group, FDR was a pussycat, unless one happened to be of Japanese descent. Ah, great men!
Quote from: geralmar on August 10, 2020, 07:00:20 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvLth5Lp/117339022-3332561546766743-5339826850710448243-n.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://postimages.org/)
I'm not sure in what sense Stalin was a better leader than Putin. I suppose he did listen to his generals (the ones he didn't have shot.)
There's a whole industry devoted to hagiography of Churchill. Hell, even I got choked up a few times watching
The Darkest Hour. Read up on the Bengal famine of 1943 sometime. Here's a good video on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/v/plZkO3y9_hY
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2020, 05:00:26 AM
Good to see inadvertent rehabilitation of the reputation of Stalin there. In the much and rightly feted group, FDR was a pussycat, unless one happened to be of Japanese descent. Ah, great men!
The point is gravitas, not ethics.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 11, 2020, 05:27:59 AM
The point is gravitas, not ethics.
The slaughter of tens of millions is solemn business, to be sure.
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2020, 05:29:35 AM
The slaughter of tens of millions is solemn business, to be sure.
Indeed it is.
Quote from: Dowder on August 10, 2020, 04:42:37 PM
Neither genocide or slavery originated in the New World. Viral outbreaks and plagues, too, predated 1492. World history isn't as simple as you'd like to make it but left wingers try their darnedest to make it so. :(
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2020, 08:05:50 AM
When bored, troll with a strawman
Nobody knows history better
https://www.youtube.com/v/vtgzVARrPu4
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 02:53:07 AM
The Dems had super-majority during Obama. What did they do with it? Did they restore unions? No. Did they fix the healthcare system creating single payer system ot at least public option? No, but some 20 million more people got insured + some other fixes (now dismantled by Trump). However, this was originally a Republican healthcare plan to protect the profits of insurance companies. Think about that: The Dems did the originally Republican healthcare system while they had super-majority! Do the corporate Dems support progressives? No! They fight the progressives much harder than the Republicans, e.g. sabotaging Bernie Sander's presidential changes twice. The donors tell the corporate Dems to do these evil things and the Overton window has been moving to the right.
The oligarchy has been created by the rich and big corporation by buying the politicians and telling them what to do and it all has been possible because of the "money is ok in politics" rulings in the supreme court. It all goes back for over 4 decades.
162,000+ American's have died of Coronavirus, but to be fair even in countries with the best healthcare system (e.g. UK) a lot of people have died, so we can't say all of these American victims of coronavirus are due to the for profit healthcare system.* Failure to protect the elderly from the virus seems to be the main thing explaining the death toll (e.g. Sweden) rather than the healthcare system. However, it is estimated 30,000-45,000 (some estimates even 68,000) Americans die every year because they don't have access to basic healthcare. People don't go to the doctor when they should because they can't afford it and when they finally go it's too late. This doesn't happen in other countries where people can afford going to doctor and health problems are addressed early on saving lives and resources. Assuming the US had had a single payer healthcare system for the last 40-50 years and 45,000 people would have not died thanks to it, we are talking about 2 million American victims of for profit healthcare, but at least the owners of big Pharma and insurance companies have nice houses and yachts, so there is that.
* A pandemic makes any kind of healthcare system struggle and how well the society prevents the spread of the virus is extremely important.
Democrats are not perfect. We have made our share of mistakes. But then again we American liberals are just as evil as Trump.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 11, 2020, 08:02:42 AM
Democrats are not perfect. We have made our share of mistakes. But then again we American liberals are just as evil as Trump.
Where, in the view of the scorched-earth Bernsters, Democrats who reach across the aisle are just as evil as Trump.
"[P]olls indicate that the Sanders wing is very much on board; a recent poll of battleground states showed that Warren primary supporters back Biden over Trump 96 percent to 0 percent and that Sanders backers support him 87 percent to 4 percent. That's considerably better than in 2016, when between 6 percent and 12 percent of Sanders supporters voted for Trump in the general election, according to studies."
I think Kanye will split the Trumpist vote. (http://www.emofaces.com/png/15/emoticons/hidingbehindcouch.png)
Karl,
One of the problems that I have had with most Trumpsters is that they believe they are carrying out the Will of God. As such they are not willing to compromise on anything.
But there are some conservatives that are more moderate. Even if Biden wins by 15 or more points, the people who vote for Trump would still be a sizable group. And if it is possible we should try to work with them.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 11, 2020, 10:48:55 AM
Karl,
One of the problems that I have had with most Trumpsters is that they believe they are carrying out the Will of God. As such they are not willing to compromise on anything.
But there are some conservatives that are more moderate. Even if Biden wins by 15 or more points, the people who vote for Trump would still be a sizable group. And if it is possible we should try to work with them.
The Trumpkins are essentially jihadists, yes, probably even those who are fond to think of themselves as conservative. The moderates are flocking to Biden.
Sen. Kamala Harris, the person who was most likely to be picked as Biden's running mate, has been picked as Joe Biden's running mate.
At least we know for sure who 47 will be.
Quote from: JBS on August 11, 2020, 12:58:28 PM
Sen. Kamala Harris, the person who was most likely to be picked as Biden's running mate, has been picked as Joe Biden's running mate.
A good pick. Look forward to her debate with Pencekin.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 11, 2020, 01:17:30 PM
A good pick. Look forward to her debate with Pencekin.
Good pick in what way? If Biden wants to make the left excited this is not working, because the left is not for rich not being prosecuted while sending parents to prison for truancy.
Kamala Harris Has To Answer For Not Prosecuting Steve Mnuchin (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-has-to-answer-for-not-prosecuting-steve_b_5980d18ee4b09d231a518205?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALksdX1bs3G8-I6flHxYyzZarcBSsE3dKXkVl0R6JJsTW7i71fdbILozR_uTCE__mgLoFw_AAKGoKqXH2exzG3xkDq8J1PJJsgYa7G9bzvoCC7K288bCiKjx9dT5icdadTYIzfubn5LAZFOI16gie9its6Yt1oTbu-ydEAOLB7lK)
Kamala Harris's stance on truancy resurfaces as she launches presidential campaign (https://edsource.org/2019/harris-stance-on-truancy-again-an-issue-as-she-launches-presidential-campaign/608430)
Quote from: arpeggio on August 11, 2020, 08:02:42 AM
Democrats are not perfect.
Understatement of the year! :o
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 01:53:25 PM
Good pick in what way? If Biden wants to make the left excited this is not working, because the left is not for rich not being prosecuted while sending parents to prison for truancy.
Kamala Harris Has To Answer For Not Prosecuting Steve Mnuchin (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-has-to-answer-for-not-prosecuting-steve_b_5980d18ee4b09d231a518205?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALksdX1bs3G8-I6flHxYyzZarcBSsE3dKXkVl0R6JJsTW7i71fdbILozR_uTCE__mgLoFw_AAKGoKqXH2exzG3xkDq8J1PJJsgYa7G9bzvoCC7K288bCiKjx9dT5icdadTYIzfubn5LAZFOI16gie9its6Yt1oTbu-ydEAOLB7lK)
Kamala Harris's stance on truancy resurfaces as she launches presidential campaign (https://edsource.org/2019/harris-stance-on-truancy-again-an-issue-as-she-launches-presidential-campaign/608430)
Not everybody on the left is as inflexible as that. witness two friends of mine:
"My take on Kamela Harris as VP.
I preferred Elizabeth Warren for her knowledge, willingness to fight for citizens, and people policies, but Harris was a close 2nd for me and from a politics-at-the-moment viewpoint Harris makes the most sense.
I would also hate to lose Warren as a senator with a republican governor.
Harris has her weak points, not prosecuting police as I'd have liked but that seems to be industry standard, but besides that she's pretty amazing for a politician.
I liked her more than Biden in the primaries, I still haven't met anyone who thought of Biden as N. 1, but I understand that a % of this country needs to see a white man as the leader."
And
"I prefer Warren as well -- but I wanted her as the presidential nominee. 2 things -- (1) I agree with not wanting to lose her in the senate to anything but the presidency. (2) The powers that be in this country AND in the DNC won't let a progressive anywhere near the presidency."
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2020, 01:15:18 PM
At least we know for sure who 47 will be.
Let's watch this election first before thinking about 47. What if the person you are thinking will be 46? Biden has time to come up with enough gaffes to give the orange man four more years.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 02:06:41 PM
Let's watch this election first before thinking about 47. What if the person you are thinking will be 46? Biden has time to come up with enough gaffes to give the orange man four more years.
Okay: how many gaffes has Biden committed in the past month? I understand you're just giving huggy bear his instant troll gratification (a dubious pursuit on your own part) but you might consider retiring your boilerplate.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 01:53:25 PM
Good pick in what way? If Biden wants to make the left excited this is not working, because the left is not for rich not being prosecuted while sending parents to prison for truancy.
Kamala Harris Has To Answer For Not Prosecuting Steve Mnuchin (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-has-to-answer-for-not-prosecuting-steve_b_5980d18ee4b09d231a518205?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALksdX1bs3G8-I6flHxYyzZarcBSsE3dKXkVl0R6JJsTW7i71fdbILozR_uTCE__mgLoFw_AAKGoKqXH2exzG3xkDq8J1PJJsgYa7G9bzvoCC7K288bCiKjx9dT5icdadTYIzfubn5LAZFOI16gie9its6Yt1oTbu-ydEAOLB7lK)
Kamala Harris's stance on truancy resurfaces as she launches presidential campaign (https://edsource.org/2019/harris-stance-on-truancy-again-an-issue-as-she-launches-presidential-campaign/608430)
(https://i.imgur.com/lYlSXOy.png)
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 11, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
Okay: how many gaffes has Biden committed in the past month? I understand you're just giving huggy bear his instant troll gratification (a dubious pursuit on your own part) but you might consider retiring your boilerplate.
Doesn't matter how many. What matters is whether it costs Biden the election or not. Biden has been "hiding" wisely, but soon he has to come out more and chances are we see more gaffes. I hope that's not the case, but I fear it will happen.
To my knowledge this is his most recent gaffe:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/510999-biden-clarifies-comments-comparing-african-american-and-latino-communities (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/510999-biden-clarifies-comments-comparing-african-american-and-latino-communities)
"What you all know, but most people don't know, unlike the African American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community, with incredibly different attitudes about different things," Biden said on Wednesday.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 01:53:25 PM
Good pick in what way? If Biden wants to make the left excited
Harris is actually ranked as more progressive than Bernie based on voting record, e.g.
https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate
Of course, she's only been a senator for a few years and was never in the majority. As for answering for her supposed shortcomings, the time for that has passed. What would be the point of litigating that
now other than to suppress turnout?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 02:22:51 PM
Doesn't matter how many. What matters is whether it costs Biden the election or not. Biden has been "hiding" wisely, but soon he has to come out more and chances are we see more gaffes. I hope that's not the case, but I fear it will happen.
To my knowledge this is his most recent gaffe:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/510999-biden-clarifies-comments-comparing-african-american-and-latino-communities (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/510999-biden-clarifies-comments-comparing-african-american-and-latino-communities)
"What you all know, but most people don't know, unlike the African American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community, with incredibly different attitudes about different things," Biden said on Wednesday.
Biden has not been "hiding"; where do you get that idea?
I think you're on the wrong tack, if you're anxious that some "gaffe" of Biden's is going to "cost him" the election.
For the U.S. voters, Biden's occasional misstatements are already baked into the model, and do not move the needle. Against the quote you offer above, is an incumbent President whose knowledge of history is so pathetic, he just said that WWII was ended by the Spanish flu.
But the real reason why the gaffes won't matter is the obvious difference (obvious to US voters) in character between the two nominees.
.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 11, 2020, 02:04:04 PM
Not everybody on the left is as inflexible as that. witness two friends of mine:
"My take on Kamela Harris as VP.
I preferred Elizabeth Warren for her knowledge, willingness to fight for citizens, and people policies, but Harris was a close 2nd for me and from a politics-at-the-moment viewpoint Harris makes the most sense.
I would also hate to lose Warren as a senator with a republican governor.
Harris has her weak points, not prosecuting police as I'd have liked but that seems to be industry standard, but besides that she's pretty amazing for a politician.
I liked her more than Biden in the primaries, I still haven't met anyone who thought of Biden as N. 1, but I understand that a % of this country needs to see a white man as the leader."
And
"I prefer Warren as well -- but I wanted her as the presidential nominee. 2 things -- (1) I agree with not wanting to lose her in the senate to anything but the presidency. (2) The powers that be in this country AND in the DNC won't let a progressive anywhere near the presidency."
Also: friend #2's wife says, "I am THRILLED!"
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 02:06:41 PM
Let's watch this election first before thinking about 47. What if the person you are thinking will be 46? Biden has time to come up with enough gaffes to give the orange man four more years.
164,681.
10.2.
Quote from: Daverz on August 11, 2020, 02:33:46 PM
Harris is actually ranked as more progressive than Bernie based on voting record, e.g.
https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate
Of course, she's only been a senator for a few years and was never in the majority. As for answering for her supposed shortcomings, the time for that has passed. What would be the point of litigating that now other than to suppress turnout?
I'd take that list with some reservations and think about how much it makes sense. If Kamala Harris was more progressive than Bernie then surely she would support Medicare for all? Well at times she has, but she has also walked back and given confusing statements about the issue making it clear she is not as firmly behind Medicare for all as Bernie Sanders who has fought for it for decades.
The list is based on "consevative" and "progressive" votes defined by grouping senators into blocks. That means your progressive score is the higher the more you vote like the "progressive" group in average. Bernie is more progressive than the "progressive group" making him an "outsider" in that group.
Another thing to consider is virtual signaling. If everyone knows the "consevative" vote wins for sure, some senators can make "progressive" vote just to virtual signal to their base, pretend being more progressive they actually are.
Where Kamala Harris' gets her donations tells a lot who she is likely to serve.
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2020, 03:06:49 PM
164,681.
10.2.
Yes, as I have said, Biden is a huge favorite TODAY. However the election is not today. What if Trump panics so much he does UBI? What if Trump steals the election ruining post service? 2020 has been an insanely crazy year...
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 03:29:49 PMWhat if Trump panics so much he does UBI? What if Trump steals the election ruining post service?
He can do neither.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 11, 2020, 02:44:57 PM
Biden has not been "hiding"; where do you get that idea?
Have you been following US politics lately at all Karl?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/dems-warm-to-bidens-bunker-strategy-338853 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/dems-warm-to-bidens-bunker-strategy-338853)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 11, 2020, 02:44:57 PMI think you're on the wrong tack, if you're anxious that some "gaffe" of Biden's is going to "cost him" the election.
For the U.S. voters, Biden's occasional misstatements are already baked into the model, and do not move the needle. Against the quote you offer above, is an incumbent President whose knowledge of history is so pathetic, he just said that WWII was ended by the Spanish flu.
But the real reason why the gaffes won't matter is the obvious difference (obvious to US voters) in character between the two nominees.
Nobody knows if the gaffes cost him the election. Let's hope they won't and we get rid of Trump. Just be repaired to see how Trump will use Biden's gaffes against Biden for full effect. How it affects the election result remains to be seen.
https://nypost.com/2020/08/07/trump-says-joe-biden-lost-the-black-vote-with-latest-gaffe/ (https://nypost.com/2020/08/07/trump-says-joe-biden-lost-the-black-vote-with-latest-gaffe/)
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2020, 03:33:32 PM
He can do neither.
You could be right about UBI, but:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/us/politics/trump-usps-mail-delays.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/us/politics/trump-usps-mail-delays.html)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 03:45:28 PM
You could be right about UBI, but:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/us/politics/trump-usps-mail-delays.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/us/politics/trump-usps-mail-delays.html)
Both require an act of Congress. The current partisan brouhaha about the USPS is hollow alarmism.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 03:41:07 PM
Have you been following US politics lately at all Karl?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/dems-warm-to-bidens-bunker-strategy-338853 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/dems-warm-to-bidens-bunker-strategy-338853)
https://nypost.com/2020/08/07/trump-says-joe-biden-lost-the-black-vote-with-latest-gaffe/ (https://nypost.com/2020/08/07/trump-says-joe-biden-lost-the-black-vote-with-latest-gaffe/)
I do follow the politics, Poju, and I've followed the news more recently than June, which is the date of that politico piece. Yes, keeping quiet then was good, not for any "hiding" of Joe, but to give Trump, who is an attention whore more rope.
Poju, I don't believe for a minute that you consider Trump an expert on who has got "the black vote."
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2020, 03:48:00 PM
Both require an act of Congress. The current partisan brouhaha about the USPS is hollow alarmism.
On the contrary, since USPS has two parcels sent me by Arkivmusic overdue somewhere in the bowels of their system ["in transit, arrival delayed, delivery date unknown"] it's a catastrophe.
On the other hand, my absentee ballot for the primary next week, which I dropped in the mailbox on Friday, was today marked received and counted by the local elections office.
Quote from: JBS on August 11, 2020, 04:32:23 PM
On the other hand, my absentee ballot for the primary next week, which I dropped in the mailbox on Friday, was today marked received and counted by the local elections office.
well, that's good. You don't need mpre cds anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/v/lddI_E6kqrI
Quote from: Herman on August 11, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
well, that's good. You don't need mpre cds anyway.
(* chortle *)
The rightwingers on some political boards seem confused over whether their message is "he only picked her because she's black" or "she isn't really black".
Plus there's the standard stuff about an outspoken woman being "shrill" and about an assertive woman being a "bitch".
meanwhile:
Records show that Trump donated to Kamala Harris' campaigns twice while he was a private citizen (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-donated-to-kamala-harris-twice-as-private-citizen-2020-8?r=US&IR=T)
"President Donald Trump donated to Kamala Harris, the presumptive Democratic vice-presidential nominee, twice while she was a candidate for California attorney general, according to public records reviewed by NBC News.
The records show that Trump donated a total of $US6,000 to Harris: $US5,000 in 2011 and $US1,000 in 2013. He made both donations while he was a private citizen."[...]
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 11, 2020, 07:55:23 PM
The rightwingers on some political boards seem confused over whether their message is "he only picked her because she's black" or "she isn't really black".
Plus there's the standard stuff about an outspoken woman being "shrill" and about an assertive woman being a "bitch".
meanwhile:
Records show that Trump donated to Kamala Harris' campaigns twice while he was a private citizen (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-donated-to-kamala-harris-twice-as-private-citizen-2020-8?r=US&IR=T)
"President Donald Trump donated to Kamala Harris, the presumptive Democratic vice-presidential nominee, twice while she was a candidate for California attorney general, according to public records reviewed by NBC News.
The records show that Trump donated a total of $US6,000 to Harris: $US5,000 in 2011 and $US1,000 in 2013. He made both donations while he was a private citizen."[...]
Apparently rightwingers believe that slavery did not exist in the Caribbean and that to be an African American you must be the descendant of people who were enslaved on US territory.
As for the donation from Trump, I've seen a post on Twitter saying she donated the full amount In 2016 to an organization that fights for civil rights for Central Americans.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 02:01:43 PM
Understatement of the year! :o
The "Merry Minuet"
They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The french hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much!!
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2020, 02:01:43 PM
Understatement of the year! :o
In spite of our flaws there are big differences between Republicans and Democrats.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 12, 2020, 12:41:44 AM
In spite of our flaws there are big differences between Republicans and Democrats.
Yeah, Biden is much more polite than Trump... ...I'm joking of course, but the Republicans and corporate Democrats are actually surprisingly similar on many issues.
For those wanting a catalog of celebrity tweets about the selection of Kamala Harris: Celebrities Cheer Biden's Choice Of Kamala Harris As Running Mate (https://www.forbes.com/sites/elanagross/2020/08/11/celebrities-cheer-bidens-choice-of-kamala-harris-as-running-mate/#50bc4b2f239c)
Does anyone here have a link to a comprehensive database of celebrity tweets about celebrity politicians?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 12, 2020, 04:09:13 AM
Yeah, Biden is much more polite than Trump... ...I'm joking of course, but the Republicans and corporate Democrats are actually surprisingly similar on many issues.
I just looked up one of these: net neutrality. It looks like he backs restoring it. While some of this is obviously true, other points are possibly wrong or phrased tendentiously.
Quote from: milk on August 12, 2020, 05:20:58 AM
I just looked up one of these: net neutrality. It looks like he backs restoring it. While some of this is obviously true, other points are possibly wrong or phrased tendentiously.
Another thing that
Poju hasn't changed: his filter, he still passes on agitprop without evaluating it.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 11, 2020, 07:55:23 PM
The rightwingers on some political boards seem confused over whether their message is "he only picked her because she's black" or "she isn't really black".
Plus there's the standard stuff about an outspoken woman being "shrill" and about an assertive woman being a "bitch".
meanwhile:
Records show that Trump donated to Kamala Harris' campaigns twice while he was a private citizen (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-donated-to-kamala-harris-twice-as-private-citizen-2020-8?r=US&IR=T)
"President Donald Trump donated to Kamala Harris, the presumptive Democratic vice-presidential nominee, twice while she was a candidate for California attorney general, according to public records reviewed by NBC News.
The records show that Trump donated a total of $US6,000 to Harris: $US5,000 in 2011 and $US1,000 in 2013. He made both donations while he was a private citizen."[...]
He probably used other people's money to make this donation thru the Trump Foundation.
Quote from: milk on August 12, 2020, 05:20:58 AM
I just looked up one of these: net neutrality. It looks like he backs restoring it. While some of this is obviously true, other points are possibly wrong or phrased tendentiously.
That little graph of
71db operates on the premise that because Biden supported "tough on crime" bills in the 80s and 90s he still does now...and that the Democratic position on, say, police reform [we need it, and the only question is how much we need to do and how to do it] and the GOP position [we don't need it, and only criminals and subversives support an idea that's obviously unpatriotic] is remotely similar. And that while Biden may not support Medicare for All, he certainly doesn't support Trump's position of Medicare for None.
Etc.
Harris gets the nod. The Atlantic publishes a think piece that relies heavily on (now dated) pop culture: Kamala Harris and the Veep in the Age of Veep (https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2020/08/kamala-harris-biden-vice-president-pop-culture/615178/) (And not just Veep, it must be noted.)
Lefties are the smartest.
Quote from: Todd on August 12, 2020, 08:38:43 AM
Lefties are the smartest.
No we are not. We just happen to be smarter than Republicans who do not believe in evolution, do not believe in climate change and think the world is only 10,000 years old.
How much smarts does trolling require, anyway?
https://thebulwark.com/what-the-kamala-harris-pick-says-about-the-biden-campaign/
There is a plethora of pieces in the press about the way, as maybe his last exploit pre-exit (apart obviously from the tantrums surrounding the Election itself) Trump is trying to kill the US Mail.
Not just to make voting harder, but also because of this erroneous idea that the US Mail is helping Bezos.
The New Yorker has a story about how rural communities would be severily impacted if local post offices would fold. Communities would die. The strange thing is the parts of the country that would be worst hit, would be the red zones with Trump voters. The Trump cult is a death cult. It has been said many times.
Quote from: Herman on August 12, 2020, 11:18:12 AMThe Trump cult is a death cult. It has been said many times.
Yes, a lot of people are saying it.
Quote from: milk on August 12, 2020, 05:20:58 AM
I just looked up one of these: net neutrality. It looks like he backs restoring it. While some of this is obviously true, other points are possibly wrong or phrased tendentiously.
Yeah, the list is "reaching" a bit. Apparently Biden-Bernie task force has changed his mind and the list is made before. If Biden restores net neutrality as the president great! I give him credit.
If you try to make similar list showing Biden and Trump are far apart you need even more tendentious phrasing.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 12, 2020, 12:54:41 PM
Yeah, the list is "reaching" a bit. Apparently Biden-Bernie task force has changed his mind and the list is made before. If Biden restores net neutrality as the president great! I give him credit.
If you try to make similar list showing Biden and Trump are far apart you need even more tendentious phrasing.
No. You just need reality.
The fact that Trump and Biden seem not very far apart from your perspective merely shows how far left your vantage point is.
But both Biden and Harris are a lot closer to you than they ever will be towards Trump.
There is a factoid floating around Twitter that claims in terms of her actual votes in the Senate, she is the most progressive senator, more even than Sanders or Warren. [I don't know what data underlies that claim, so I can't say how accurate it is.]
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 12, 2020, 05:45:22 AM
Another thing that Poju hasn't changed: his filter, he still passes on agitprop without evaluating it.
That way I see how other people filter the stuff I post. Milk's filter seems to work fine. 0:)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 12, 2020, 01:12:22 PM
That way I see how other people filter the stuff I post. Milk's filter seems to work fine. 0:)
Trump won't concede that his agitprop is agitprop, either.
Quote from: JBS on August 12, 2020, 07:43:27 AM
That little graph of 71db operates on the premise that because Biden supported "tough on crime" bills in the 80s and 90s he still does now...and that the Democratic position on, say, police reform [we need it, and the only question is how much we need to do and how to do it] and the GOP position [we don't need it, and only criminals and subversives support an idea that's obviously unpatriotic] is remotely similar. And that while Biden may not support Medicare for All, he certainly doesn't support Trump's position of Medicare for None.
Etc.
If Biden becomes the president and does "better" policies he did in the past I will give him credit. I hope this happens, but life has made my cynical. The man has made it clear he is NOT part of the left. He is a corporate neoliberal and I expect to see corporate neoliberal governing from him if he wins. There is a simple way for him to proof he is not racist anymore: Executive order to legalize marijuana in all States and releasing non-violent drug-offenders. This has affected the blacks disproportionately.
Trump's opinions about healthcare have been all over the place. Years ago he even supported medicare for all, but as the president he has not had any plan to do any kind of rational healthcare reform. All he has done is sabotage ObamaCare. Trump's position has been the standard Republican position:
Healthcare for those who can afford it.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 12, 2020, 01:31:50 PMExecutive order to legalize marijuana in all States and releasing non-violent drug-offenders. This has affected the blacks disproportionately.
What's the air like on Saturn?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 12, 2020, 01:31:50 PM
If Biden becomes the president and does "better" policies he did in the past I will give him credit. I hope this happens, but life has made my cynical. The man has made it clear he is NOT part of the left. He is a corporate neoliberal and I expect to see corporate neoliberal governing from him if he wins. There is a simple way for him to proof he is not racist anymore: Executive order to legalize marijuana in all States and releasing non-violent drug-offenders. This has affected the blacks disproportionately.
Trump's opinions about healthcare have been all over the place. Years ago he even supported medicare for all, but as the president he has not had any plan to do any kind of rational healthcare reform. All he has done is sabotage ObamaCare. Trump's position has been the standard Republican position: Healthcare for those who can afford it.
Biden's position is the public option, so by definition it is not just "for those who can afford it".
Biden can't do what you want since most of that is really a state law. At most he can order the DEA to abide by state decisions on medical marijuana and decriminalization, and commute/pardon non violent offenders in Federal custody. But someone in Federal custody is almost always violent/large scale trafficker, so very few people would be impacted by that. Most nonviolent offenders are in state prisons, for whom Biden can do nothing.
Anyway, just because Trump abuses the "Executive Order" doesn't mean that Biden will be able to use it like a magic wand. Part of the long-term recovery from the Trump Carnival-Nightmare White House is going to be, a better definition of the Executive Order. Probably, just the fact of a President who upholds his Oath of Office, and defends the Constitution, will be a start.
Here's a GMG conversation from five full years ago (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24159.msg916388.html#msg916388) where Todd and I discuss the notion that Joe Biden would only want to serve one term, and Kamala Harris would make a logical Democratic heir apparent.
Quote from: JBS on August 12, 2020, 02:31:12 PM
Biden's position is the public option, so by definition it is not just "for those who can afford it".
Sorry, if my post was confusing. That's TRUMP'S position as the president. Yes, Biden is "Incrementally improve ObamaCare/Public Option" guy and his plan would cover about 97 % of Americans. While public option is certainly better than ObamaCare, it allows the mafia aka insurance companies in place and the healthcare costs would not go down much and of course about 10 million Americans would still be not covered.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 12, 2020, 05:22:17 PM
Sorry, if my post was confusing. That's TRUMP'S position as the president. Yes, Biden is "Incrementally improve ObamaCare/Public Option" guy and his plan would cover about 97 % of Americans. While public option is certainly better than ObamaCare, it allows the mafia aka insurance companies in place and the healthcare costs would not go down much and of course about 10 million Americans would still be not covered.
You realize that when you go on about "mafia" "oligarchy" &c. You only sound like fringe propagandist, not like an informed actor in good faith.
By all means, repeat the jargon you please....
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 12, 2020, 02:36:32 PM
Anyway, just because Trump abuses the "Executive Order" doesn't mean that Biden will be able to use it like a magic wand. Part of the long-term recovery from the Trump Carnival-Nightmare White House is going to be, a better definition of the Executive Order. Probably, just the fact of a President who upholds his Oath of Office, and defends the Constitution, will be a start.
Indeed
Ah, yes, thoughtful ruminations by world renowned Constitutional Law scholars regarding executive orders. Yes, Biden will not resort to executive orders, or when he does, he will do so more wholesomely, with very great sensitivity to some higher guiding principles. It has been written on GMG, and so it will be.
Before condemning all of the wealthy in America one should check out Patriotic Millionaires:
https://patrioticmillionaires.org/ (https://patrioticmillionaires.org/)
Sometimes it's almost as if Trump can't wait to lose the Election.
Such as when he's talking about the difficulties he's having "washing my beautiful hair" and needing legislation to up the water pressure or whatever.
Give that man a fiddle and let him do his Nero shtick and buh bye!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 12, 2020, 05:39:32 PM
You realize that when you go on about "mafia" "oligarchy" &c. You only sound like fringe propagandist, not like an informed actor in good faith.
By all means, repeat the jargon you please....
How do you want your insurance company called Karl? Should Italian mafia be called "A consortium offering protection services"?
I
am informed. That's why I know insurance companies operate practically a like mafias bribing the politicians to uphold the sick for profit healthcare system so they can rip people of. I do this with good faith wanting a system for Americans where they are not ripped of.
The US is much closer to oligarchy than functioning democracy and if you Karl don't know that or think it's fringe propaganda, I am affraid it's you who isn't informed. You may have different opinions about how to tackle the oligarchy and mafias, but if you are informed you can't deny they are there.
This is all I say about this and from now on I ignore all claims of being an uninformed fringe propagandist. Fringe propagandist are usually people who are PAID to do the fringe propaganda (people such as Ben Shapiro). Nobody pays me anything for this. So, what is my reason to do fringe propaganda? Insanity? Satan told me to do so? What is it Karl? With everything that has been happening in the US this year some people here still seem clueless about the reality (while themselves wondering how Trumpists STILL support Trump). Amazing. Calling US healthcare insurance companies mafia and the US political system an oligarchy is no different from calling president Trump a reality tv baffoon. Would you consider calling Trump a reality tv baffoon "fringe propaganda" Karl? I didn't think so, but Trumpists DO think so! You are a person with intellectual curiosity Karl. You could try to understand WHY the left uses words "mafia" and "oligarchy" just as Trumpists could learn about things and understand why we call Trump a reality tv baffoon. However, if you reject the lefties thinking everything we say is fringe propagandist I suppose it's challenging to understand and I can't help you much...
Quote from: JBS on August 12, 2020, 02:31:12 PM
Biden can't do what you want since most of that is really a state law.
Cannabis can be made legal federally. It's classification as a Schedule I substance (prohibiting even
medical use of the drug!) can and should be ended. All it takes is political will. Two thirds of Americans favor making marijuana usage legal. In functioning democracy the actions of politicians reflect the will of the people.
Quote from: JBS on August 12, 2020, 02:31:12 PMAt most he can order the DEA to abide by state decisions on medical marijuana and decriminalization, and commute/pardon non violent offenders in Federal custody. But someone in Federal custody is almost always violent/large scale trafficker, so very few people would be impacted by that. Most nonviolent offenders are in state prisons, for whom Biden can do nothing.
My knowledge of US prison system is not on the level to comment on this. It sucks if the most powerful person in the World can do nothing... ::)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 13, 2020, 04:27:19 AMMy knowledge of US prison system is not on the level to comment on this. It sucks if the most powerful person in the World can do nothing... ::)
What can Xi do about US prisons?
(https://images.axios.com/MJugUqWr4hFa-ZNE9zrXwhejLOI=/2017/12/15/1513306174391.jpg)
Trump finally takes bold action on something important: US calls for shower rules to be eased after Trump hair complaints (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53761744)
The Beeb uses a fun accompanying photo:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/41FB/production/_113919861_hi045965426.jpg)
Quote from: Todd on August 13, 2020, 04:29:57 AM
What can Xi do about US prisons?
(https://images.axios.com/MJugUqWr4hFa-ZNE9zrXwhejLOI=/2017/12/15/1513306174391.jpg)
Give me a break! Biden would probably be more powerful than Xi even if Trump isn't...
Quote from: 71 dB on August 13, 2020, 04:32:50 AM
Give me a break! Biden would probably be more powerful than Xi even if Trump isn't...
Another of the reasons to read GMG is the unparalleled understanding of geopolitics on display here.
https://www.youtube.com/v/0RujfQsSx4U
International body says voting problems 'could harm integrity' of US election (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/13/osce-election-monitors-us-integrity-november)
Yep, that's it, the US is now a Third World country. Of course, some GMG intellectuals knew that already . . .
The words "third world country" are not in the article you linked.
Observers have been sent to US (and other) elections for many years.
How to Sell Protest Footage to FOX AND CNN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiYZ__Ww02c
;D
Quote from: Herman on August 13, 2020, 05:55:08 AM
The words "third world country" are not in the article you linked.
Correct.
Quote from: Todd on August 13, 2020, 04:29:57 AM
What can Xi do about US prisons?
(https://images.axios.com/MJugUqWr4hFa-ZNE9zrXwhejLOI=/2017/12/15/1513306174391.jpg)
Offer to look after the prisoners at lower cost (in China)?
Quote from: steve ridgway on August 13, 2020, 08:41:51 AM
Offer to look after the prisoners at lower cost (in China)?
Offshoring can be attractive.
The Late Show stole Kyle Kulinski's joke. :P
Like The Late Show gives a shit what your Kyle says. And like there haven't already been thousands of gags about Trump liking McDonalds.
There: you wanted a reaction to mentioning Kyle and you got one. Happy?
"Donald Trump was the national leader of the grotesque, racist birther movement with respect to President Obama and has sought to fuel racism and tear our nation apart on every single day of his presidency," a Biden campaign spokesman said in an email. "So it's unsurprising, but no less abhorrent, that as Trump makes a fool of himself straining to distract the American people from the horrific toll of his failed coronavirus response that his campaign and their allies would resort to wretched, demonstrably false lies in their pathetic desperation."
Pentagon to launch task force to investigate UFO sightings (https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/13/politics/pentagon-ufo-task-force/index.html)
Looks like Space Force needs a bigger budget.
Considering Trump's actions I have lost faith in anyone who still supports him. It really bothers me that there are people who hate Democrat so much that they would turn the country over to a Fascist. I have reviewed several definitions of Fascism and Trump is a Fascist.
It is sad that when we saw fascists take over other county we thought it could not happen here. Boy were we wrong.
motives:
1 Stick it to the Libs
2 I want that tax cus
3 Micropenis
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2020, 03:48:00 PM
The current partisan brouhaha about the USPS is hollow alarmism.
Yeah, it's not like Trump admitted he's attempting to undermine voting by mail — Oh wait! ::)
Trump has attempted to do other things. Like build a big, beautiful wall.
He doesn't give a shit about the Wall.
All he wants is a few miles for photo ops.
Undermining the mail is quite another thing.
It may crucial for not losing the election.
People haven't been this excited about the USPS since the Elvis stamp in '93.
Black Lives Matter Protest: Give Us Your House (Seattle, Aug 12 2020)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFrZJyggwgE&feature=emb_logo
Trying to abolish police + show up in mobs demanding people give them their house? Sounds like a bright future.
The right has gutted the voting rights act, gutted affirmative action and made it impossible to punish police officers who misbehave. And they are surprised that minorities and their allies are upset and demonstrating ::)
Some people are quick to justify mob intimidation and violence.
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Some people are quick to justify mob intimidation and violence.
Yeah, and against people who are just minding their own business.
I guess the mobs figure that if they can't win by being good, then they'll resort to evil (intimidation tactics using mobs in the sense of might/force instead of being right).
Meanwhile, Jeff Bezos just sitting there in his floating space tower looking down at everyone and probably sighing, "ah well, it's always like this, people got a problem with people like me and take it out on the people next to them..." and thus good people suffer.
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Some people are quick to justify mob intimidation and violence.
So what if your observation is true. It still does not justify the conservative agenda of suppressing the rights of minorities.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 14, 2020, 08:25:22 AM
So what if your observation is true. It still does not justify the conservative agenda of suppressing the rights of minorities.
How do you know the people in the house were conservatives? They are white, that is the only distinction made clear in the video.
Quote from: greg on August 14, 2020, 07:57:28 AMI guess the mobs figure that if they can't win by being good, then they'll resort to evil (intimidation tactics using mobs in the sense of might/force instead of being right).
That is a specialty of the left.
Quote from: greg on August 14, 2020, 08:36:13 AM
How do you know the people in the house were conservatives? They are white, that is the only distinction made clear in the video.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was not responding to any video ???
Quote from: arpeggio on August 14, 2020, 09:40:09 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was not responding to any video ???
Oh ok, not a problem, my bad then. :D
Quote from: greg on August 14, 2020, 09:41:47 AM
Oh ok, not a problem, my bad then. :D
No problem. I have messed up any times too ;)
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 09:11:19 AM
That is a specialty of the left.
Since I am an agnostic, if someone hits my over the head with a baseball bat I am not going to turn the other cheek.
Changing headlines from AmPo for the same story.
Anyway, Trump's secret, sinister plan for the USPS is now plain to see. It is so sinister, that people are getting a heads up over eleven weeks early.
Trump is literally Hitler.
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 10:40:10 AM
Trump is literally Hitler.
He is more of a Mussolini: a vain clown with a big mouth, a fat ass and no brains. ;)
Q
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 10:40:10 AM
Changing headlines from AmPo for the same story.
Anyway, Trump's secret, sinister plan for the USPS is now plain to see. It is so sinister, that people are getting a heads up over eleven weeks early.
Trump is literally Hitler.
I know of only one fool who says it's a secret plan. :)
Quote from: Que on August 14, 2020, 01:09:58 PM
He is more of a Mussolini: a vain clown with a big mouth, a fat ass and no brains. ;)
Q
I agree.
Quote from: Que on August 14, 2020, 01:09:58 PM
He is more of a Mussolini: a vain clown with a big mouth, a fat ass and no brains. ;)
Q
That's old hat:
https://www.youtube.com/v/sjwSVCnl7Rw
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 14, 2020, 01:26:43 PM
I know of only one fool who says it's a secret plan. :)
Who?
Quote from: Que on August 14, 2020, 01:09:58 PM
He is more of a Mussolini: a vain clown with a big mouth, a fat ass and no brains. ;)
Q
Mussolini had some brains. And knew how to actually give a speech.
This would compensate him for not having a wealthy father giving him a leg up in business.
Mitt Romney slams politicians attacking mail-in voting (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/mitt-romney-slams-politicians-attacking-mail-in-voting)
Trump suggests/dogwhistles that Kamala Harris cannot be VP because both her parents were immigrants (read: darkies)
"I heard it today that she doesn't meet the requirements – I have no idea if that's right."
Trump Encourages Racist Conspiracy Theory About Kamala Harris (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/us/politics/trump-kamala-harris.html)
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 14, 2020, 04:21:21 PM
Trump suggests/dogwhistles that Kamala Harris cannot be VP because both her parents were immigrants (read: darkies)
"I heard it today that she doesn't meet the requirements – I have no idea if that's right."
Trump Encourages Racist Conspiracy Theory About Kamala Harris (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/us/politics/trump-kamala-harris.html)
The last time I jumped to conclusions this much I hit my head on the moon. I wouldn't recommend it.
Doesn't strike me as any jump at all. Call it a test balloon for Birther 2.0. And its completely consistent with every other racist act and pronouncement from him.
Or do you believe he's raising the issue sincerely?
It will be fun to see how much ink is spilled about and how much additional, inane online chatter revolves around the current birther blabber, and how excited some people get about the topic, as it will inevitably spill into other favorite topics.
But enough of the irrelevant diversions: how large will Biden's margin of victory be? I'm primarily interested in the Electoral College. A popular vote landslide seems unlikely today, but an Electoral College landslide seems quite possible. Does he get ~350, ~375, ~400?
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 05:29:43 PM
It will be fun to see how much ink is spilled about and how much additional, inane online chatter revolves around the current birther blabber, and how excited some people get about the topic, as it will inevitably spill into other favorite topics.
But enough of the irrelevant diversions: how large will Biden's margin of victory be? I'm primarily interested in the Electoral College. A popular vote landslide seems unlikely today, but an Electoral College landslide seems quite possible. Does he get ~350, ~375, ~400?
As long as it's over 270.
538 at the moment gives Trump a 29 percent chance of winning, but is predicting Biden gets 326 electoral votes and 53 percent of the popular vote.
But I'm sure there are already a lot of surprises sitting waiting for October.
meanwhile:
Trump Has Nearly Eliminated Intelligence Briefings From His Schedule Entirely
A HuffPost analysis finds the president has averaged less than one a week since July 1, after the public learned of Russian bounties on murdered U.S. soldiers. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-intel-briefings-gone_n_5f32f2b9c5b6fc009a5e72e3?_guc_consent_skip=1597236564)
"President Donald Trump's interest in taking intelligence briefings has been declining steadily since his first months in office and has dropped to near zero in recent weeks, according to a HuffPost review of all of his daily schedules.
Trump went from a high of 4.1 briefings per week on average in March 2017 to 0.7 per week since July 1, shortly after it became public that he had ignored intelligence reports about Russia offering bounties to the Taliban for each American soldier killed in Afghanistan.
Monday's briefing, in fact, was the first in August and the first since July 22. That month had only three briefings scheduled.
"It's remarkable that, even at their peak, they never exceeded 20 per month," said Ned Price, a former CIA analyst and a spokesman for the National Security Council during the Obama administration.
"And now that they are arguably more important than ever, as foreign actors are again interfering in our democracy, tensions with Beijing are swirling, and America's adversaries and competitors are becoming more emboldened, the president can't seem to find the time to be briefed," he added."[...]
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xVHcB80/Efa7-M7y-Xo-AEFPo-W.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-post-office-mail-in-voting-fraud-boxes-louis-dejoy-a9670816.html
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 14, 2020, 06:33:32 PM
But I'm sure there are already a lot of surprises sitting waiting for October.
meanwhile:
Trump Has Nearly Eliminated Intelligence Briefings From His Schedule Entirely
A HuffPost analysis finds the president has averaged less than one a week since July 1, after the public learned of Russian bounties on murdered U.S. soldiers. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-intel-briefings-gone_n_5f32f2b9c5b6fc009a5e72e3?_guc_consent_skip=1597236564)
"President Donald Trump's interest in taking intelligence briefings has been declining steadily since his first months in office and has dropped to near zero in recent weeks, according to a HuffPost review of all of his daily schedules.
Trump went from a high of 4.1 briefings per week on average in March 2017 to 0.7 per week since July 1, shortly after it became public that he had ignored intelligence reports about Russia offering bounties to the Taliban for each American soldier killed in Afghanistan.
Monday's briefing, in fact, was the first in August and the first since July 22. That month had only three briefings scheduled.
"It's remarkable that, even at their peak, they never exceeded 20 per month," said Ned Price, a former CIA analyst and a spokesman for the National Security Council during the Obama administration.
"And now that they are arguably more important than ever, as foreign actors are again interfering in our democracy, tensions with Beijing are swirling, and America's adversaries and competitors are becoming more emboldened, the president can't seem to find the time to be briefed," he added."[...]
It probably goes along with his idea about testing for Covid19. If he's not briefed about a problem it can't exist.
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 05:29:43 PM
It will be fun to see how much ink is spilled about and how much additional, inane online chatter revolves around the current birther blabber, and how excited some people get about the topic, as it will inevitably spill into other favorite topics.
Your contribution is noted.
No surprise there.
1 stick it to the libs
2 I want that tax cut
and there was a third reason to support Trump.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 14, 2020, 04:21:21 PM
Trump suggests/dogwhistles that Kamala Harris cannot be VP because both her parents were immigrants (read: darkies)
"I heard it today that she doesn't meet the requirements – I have no idea if that's right."
"I have heard Trump is a lifelong criminal and paid someone to do his SAT –
I have no idea if that's right." ::)
Kamala Harris was born in Oakland, California, United States. Sure, I am just an ignorant European, but I think that qualifies her to be the VP. Her ethnicity, skin color etc. are not the problem I have with her. It's her
policies (the damn stuff that MATTERS). Kyle Kulinski has a long list of her sins if anyone is interested, but I suppose nobody except me is around here as "status quo that led to Trump" seems to be good enough for many, sadly.
Quote from: Todd on August 14, 2020, 05:29:43 PM
But enough of the irrelevant diversions: how large will Biden's margin of victory be? I'm primarily interested in the Electoral College. A popular vote landslide seems unlikely today, but an Electoral College landslide seems quite possible. Does he get ~350, ~375, ~400?
According to polling today:
All votes counted fairly:
Biden wins 352-186In-Person votes counted only:
Trump wins 306-232Assuming the polling doesn't change much between now and November third, the result is between those limits depending on how fairly the by mail votes are counted. Looks like if only 50 % of by mail votes are counted Biden still wins.
Republicans with more speaking time at DNC than AOC.
AOC was given 60 seconds to speak and it is pre-recorded and pre-checked while Republicans can speak freely longer. Okay, but don't wonder why the left HATES the DNC. If you show someone huge middle fingers non-stop they might start hating you. That's how it works. Deal with it.
Quote from: Herman on August 14, 2020, 11:27:12 PM
No surprise there.
1 stick it to the libs
2 I want that tax cut
and there was a third reason to support Trump.
We get our cheap jollies from his flouting his Oath of office and the Law:
Federal criminal law (18 USC 1701):
Whoever knowingly and willfully obstructs or retards the passage of the mail, or any carrier or conveyance carrying the mail, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2020, 02:26:23 AM
According to polling today:
All votes counted fairly: Biden wins 352-186
In-Person votes counted only: Trump wins 306-232
The Biden counts are low in both scenarios.
168,458.
10.2.
Why America Must Lead Again
Rescuing U.S. Foreign Policy After Trump (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-01-23/why-america-must-lead-again?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=weekend_read&utm_content=20200815&utm_campaign=FA_WEEKEND_081520%20Joe%20Biden%20on%20Rescuing%20U.S.%20Foreign%20Policy%20After%20Trump%20%EE%A5%86&utm_term=FA%20Weekend%20Read-012320)
A somewhat odd thing to scribble for an article so littered with "I":
Quote from: Super-Creepy 46's mediocre ghostwriterThe next U.S. president will have to address the world as it is in January 2021, and picking up the pieces will be an enormous task. He or she will have to salvage our reputation...
I thought Super-Creepy 46 was in it to win it, not hand it over to 47 first thing.
There's this throwback to the USA's proudest moment in world history:
Quote from: Super-Creepy 46's mediocre ghostwriterThe triumph of democracy and liberalism over fascism and autocracy created the free world. But this contest does not just define our past. It will define our future, as well.
Yawn. The article checks off a similarly tired list of Dem talking points: education, democracy and democratization and a Summit for Democracy (!), immigration, "leading the free world", the existential threat from climate change, that kind of intellectual slop. There is something about "a foreign policy for the middle class", whatever that really means. At least Joe and his mediocre ghostwriter are alert to the threat from China.
The rhetorical highlight is this:
Quote from: Super-Creepy 46's mediocre ghostwriterThe Biden foreign policy agenda will place the United States back at the head of the table
The USA is number one, and all that.
Really, though, my favorite part is this bit:
Quote from: Super-Creepy 46's mediocre ghostwriterAnd the summit members will issue a call to action for the private sector, including technology companies and social media giants, which must recognize their responsibilities and overwhelming interest in preserving democratic societies and protecting free speech. At the same time, free speech cannot serve as a license for technology and social media companies to facilitate the spread of malicious lies. Those companies must act to ensure that their tools and platforms are not empowering the surveillance state, gutting privacy, facilitating repression in China and elsewhere, spreading hate and misinformation, spurring people to violence, or remaining susceptible to other misuse.
We will be needing that Ministry of Truth.
You go, Joe!
The future that Trumpists worry about is already here. Kamala Harris is the face of America in 2020, the tawny-skinned child of immigrants. She is as American as apple pie and hot dogs, as pizza and ramen noodles, as empanadas and samosas—and there is little Donald Trump or his apologists can do about it.
(https://thebulwark.com/natural-born-citizens/)
This article can only bring dowder pain ....
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2020, 02:50:31 AM
Republicans with more speaking time at DNC than AOC.
AOC was given 60 seconds to speak and it is pre-recorded and pre-checked while Republicans can speak freely longer. Okay, but don't wonder why the left HATES the DNC. If you show someone huge middle fingers non-stop they might start hating you. That's how it works. Deal with it.
Biden needs Republican leaning voters to feel comfortable enough with Biden to not vote for Trump. Therefore Kasich should speak as much as possible and AOC needs to speak as little as possible.
Remember: Progressives make up no more than one fifth of voters. The DNC gives them the attention that's appropriate to their importance.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 14, 2020, 05:06:56 PM
Doesn't strike me as any jump at all. Call it a test balloon for Birther 2.0. And its completely consistent with every other racist act and pronouncement from him.
Or do you believe he's raising the issue sincerely?
Quote
"I heard it today that she doesn't meet the requirements," Mr. Trump said of Ms. Harris.
"I have no idea if that's right," he added. "I would have thought, I would have assumed, that the Democrats would have checked that out before she gets chosen to run for vice president."
Sounds like someone questioning and in the dark about something they heard. Nothing race-related.
We'll see what he says later. But for now, no need to attack him about this.
Quote from: greg on August 15, 2020, 09:03:30 AM
Sounds like someone questioning and in the dark about something they heard. Nothing race-related.
We'll see what he says later. But for now, no need to attack him about this.
We're not attacking, we're just raising the question because we heard it somewhere.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: greg on August 15, 2020, 09:03:30 AM
Sounds like someone questioning and in the dark about something they heard. Nothing race-related.
We'll see what he says later. But for now, no need to attack him about this.
Neither your political memory nor your evaluative skills are any credit to your high IQ
It's hard to overstate how popular WCW was. At its height in 1998, a main event segment on WCW's Monday Nitro scored a 6.0 Nielsen rating, a staggering number for a cable television program at the time. Yet three years later, the company was in such dire straits that the WWE was able to buy it on the cheap. Ratings were in free fall for months, ticket sales were abysmal, and talented young wrestlers were jumping ship to WWE or overseas promotions at the first opportunity.
There are some interesting comparisons between WCW's decline and that of the modern Republican party.
(https://thebulwark.com/can-the-gop-avoid-the-fate-of-world-championship-wrestling/)
Sound like a troll you know?...
For many in the conservative movement, this sort of anti-anti-Trumpism is the solution to the painful conundrum posed by the Trump presidency. With a vast majority of conservative voters and listeners solidly behind Mr. Trump, conservative critics of the president find themselves isolated and under siege. But, as Damon Linker noted, anti-anti-Trumpism "allows the right to indulge its hatred of liberals and liberalism while sidestepping the need for a reckoning with the disaster of the Trump administration itself." . . .
Here is how it works: Rather than defend President Trump's specific actions, his conservative champions change the subject to (1) the biased "fake news" media, (2) over-the-top liberals, (3) hypocrites on the left, (4) anyone else victimizing Mr. Trump or his supporters and (5) whataboutism, as in "What about Obama?" "What about Clinton?" (https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/the-agony-of-the-anti-anti-trumpers/)
Quote from: greg on August 15, 2020, 09:03:30 AM
Sounds like someone questioning and in the dark about something they heard. Nothing race-related.
We'll see what he says later. But for now, no need to attack him about this.
This is wilfully naive.
Trump always uses the "Some people say..." or "I hear this or that" as a lead in to floating some outrageous statement.
Quote from: drogulus on August 15, 2020, 09:35:08 AM
We're not attacking, we're just raising the question because we heard it somewhere. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 14, 2020, 04:21:21 PM
Trump suggests/dogwhistles that Kamala Harris cannot be VP because both her parents were immigrants (read: darkies)
Sounds like an attack to me.
If this isn't an attack, you can let me know and I'll reinterpret the meaning of people's posts.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2020, 09:40:38 AM
Neither your political memory nor your evaluative skills are any credit to your high IQ
Or maybe you could break down Trump's statement and show
why it is racist?
And if you can't, that's fine, I'm not going to attack anyone for it. I just suggest people take a step back and question what they read.
Journalism is just a click-bait machine, rage-bait being the most effective in making their money. There's nothing genuine about it, it's just part of the capitalist machine. Maybe people shouldn't react to the headline so much and just read the content and question that instead.
Quote from: Herman on August 15, 2020, 10:27:08 AM
This is wilfully naive.
Trump always uses the "Some people say..." or "I hear this or that" as a lead in to floating some outrageous statement.
So? Maybe question what he says then? Or is that too hard?
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 06:55:52 AM
Biden needs Republican leaning voters to feel comfortable enough with Biden to not vote for Trump. Therefore Kasich should speak as much as possible and AOC needs to speak as little as possible.
Remember: Progressives make up no more than one fifth of voters. The DNC gives them the attention that's appropriate to their importance.
One fifth of voters perhaps CALL/IDENTIFY themselves as progressives, but that's about how you
label yourself, not about what your political views actually are. People are bad with these labels. Even Bernie Sanders calls himself mistakenly a Democratic Socialist when he actually is a Social Democrat. Labels are labels. Trump calls himself a "very stable genius". Doesn't mean he actually is smart. Corporate media has done propaganda for decades to make viewers to think anything left-wing is horrible and "radical."
The support for progressive policies is much higher than 20 %, typically over 50 % demonstrating how polical opinions don't accurately reflect how many identify themselves as progressives.
Instead of thinking what Biden needs, how about what American people need? Biden is an old man with a lot of wealth while 3/4 of Americans struggle financially and this struggle has only deepened for many due to the Coronavirus crisis. Almost the only reason why I want Biden to win is getting rid of Trump. Those morons who at this point in time STILL support Trump are so far gone Biden can never get them to vote for him. Biden can get the votes of Independents and progressives. Among independents progressive policies are quite popular (about 2/3 of independents support medicare for all for example). Biden could increase his chances
dramatically if he committed himself to do medicare for all, but he has been bought by insurance companies and Big Pharma to be against it. He could get even some Republican votes, because 40-50 % of Republicans typically support medicare for all and inspiring the left is a plus too.
Hillary Clinton was a corporate candidate and lost. Yeah, she was hated, but one can ask WHY people hate her?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2020, 12:29:33 PM
One fifth of voters perhaps CALL/IDENTIFY themselves as progressives, but that's about how you label yourself, not about what your political views actually are. People are bad with these labels. Even Bernie Sanders calls himself mistakenly a Democratic Socialist when he actually is a Social Democrat. Labels are labels. Trump calls himself a "very stable genius". Doesn't mean he actually is smart. Corporate media has done propaganda for decades to make viewers to think anything left-wing is horrible and "radical."
The support for progressive policies is much higher than 20 %, typically over 50 % demonstrating how polical opinions don't accurately reflect how many identify themselves as progressives.
Instead of thinking what Biden needs, how about what American people need? Biden is an old man with a lot of wealth while 3/4 of Americans struggle financially and this struggle has only deepened for many due to the Coronavirus crisis. Almost the only reason why I want Biden to win is getting rid of Trump. Those morons who at this point in time STILL support Trump are so far gone Biden can never get them to vote for him. Biden can get the votes of Independents and progressives. Among independents progressive policies are quite popular (about 2/3 of independents support medicare for all for example). Biden could increase his chances dramatically if he committed himself to do medicare for all, but he has been bought by insurance companies and Big Pharma to be against it. He could get even some Republican votes, because 40-50 % of Republicans typically support medicare for all and inspiring the left is a plus too.
Hillary Clinton was a corporate candidate and lost. Yeah, she was hated, but one can ask WHY people hate her?
We've been through this before.
Hillary lost because she is arrogant and corrupt. She didn't lose votes because people didn't like her policies. She didn't lose because she was the "corporate" candidate.She lost votes because people didn't like
her.
In the Democratic primaries less than half the votes went to any candidate who could be called progressive. So less than half the Democratic party voted for progressives, and the Democrats account for about a third of American voters. That means in saying 20% of American voters would vote for progressives, I am actually overstating their strength.
Also bear in mind that a good deal of progressive ideas are merely mainstream ideas overlaid with a socialist veneer of over centralized planning and command. When you see "moderates" and "independents" support so called progressive ideas, they are usually in favor of the ideas without the socialist veneer. The ideas you deride as neo-liberal and corporate are really mainstream and moderate. That's why they are popular.
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PM
Also bear in mind that a good deal of progressive ideas are merely mainstream ideas overlaid with a socialist veneer of over centralized planning and command. When you see "moderates" and "independents" support so called progressive ideas, they are usually in favor of the ideas without the socialist veneer. The ideas you deride as neo-liberal and corporate are really mainstream and moderate. That's why they are popular.
Now you're getting close to my view of the veneer factor, the difference being I include the supposed "over centralized" nature of some plans as a part of the veneer. It's something you don't care about for a program you want and care deeply about for programs you don't. The latter are over centralized and socialist, until they are passed and become part of the fabric of life that must be protected.
Terms like radical and mainstream identify tendencies over time, shifting points of view people take at stages in the history of ideas and of their implementation. They don't represent eternal essences either of plans or of people.
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PM
We've been through this before.
Yes we have and at this point this feels rather frustrating. I don't know how to put my words to make my message clear or do I have to accept no matter what I say it doesn't have any effect? Looks like that...
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PMHillary lost because she is arrogant and corrupt.
If she was progressive people would not find her arrogant and corrupt.
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PMShe didn't lose votes because people didn't like her policies. She didn't lose because she was the "corporate" candidate.She lost votes because people didn't like her.
She lost the election because she lost in the rust belt. 70.000 votes more there and she would have won. She lost the rust belt because her policies. People in those areas suffer for outsourced jobs and she did not speak for bringing those jobs back. Trump did (lied, but people didn't know that). The Republicans and Corporate Democrates do not want to bring the jobs back. Those companies benefit from cheap labor overseas and corporation friendly trade laws. Those companies have bought The Republicans and Corporate Democrates. That's why Hillary Clinton didn't speak about bringing jobs back. She didn't even campaign in the rust belt. She tought she doesn't have to do well in the rust belt. She is out of touch. She thought she can win without the rust belt, but it's not 1992 anymore. It was 2016 and the US had moved to the era of political populism. Trump knew it. Hillary Clinton didn't know that, or if she knew she didn't care about it enough. Nobody is liked by everyone. Someone will always hate you no matter what, but you can decrease the amount of haters if you speak stuff people want to hear. In the rust belt people wanted to hear Hillary Clinton say she will change the trade laws to be less corporation friendly and more workers-friendly. More protectionism. That would have been the kind of political populism that could have won her the critical 70.000 votes. Being more left in economic issues could have cost her some votes in blue states where she won with landslide changing nothing, but it could have given her victories in States she lost to Trump. In the rust belt people tend to be socially conservative and economically progressive/left-leaning. They tend to vote for the Republicans for the social conservatism, because corporate Dems don't offer economical progressivism/left-leaning policies. A progressive Dem can change the dynamics and people need to choose between social conservatism and economical progressivism. When you are jobless and struggling you are tempted to go for economical progressivism. Hillary Clinton's "Stronger together" platitudes simply did not resonate with people in the rust belt. How on earth could they have? At the same time you have a dude telling you "The forgotten people will not be forgotten anymore. I bring the jobs back to the US and it will be increadible. I will give you all HealthCare and it will be increadible!" All total lies, but at least Trump said them and won.
This is an oversimplification of what happened in 2016 election, but it's the core of it. You won't hear this on corporate media. Instead they blame everything between Earth and Moon for the loss of H.C. Bernie Bros, Russia,... so stupid. Corporate Dems didn't understand how important it is to be a populist there days and lost to a fake populist. It's just difficult to be a populist when you are bribed to be a corporatist.
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PMIn the Democratic primaries less than half the votes went to any candidate who could be called progressive.
You CAN'T be this clueless dude!! Do you understand how the progressive candidates are in permanent financial disadvantage? Progressive candidates collect small donations from regular people while the corporate candidate swim in corporate money. The corporate media keeps silent about progressive candidates to avoid giving them name recognition or they downplay/smear the candidate to ruin their changes. Shahid Buttar is under bs accusations. Alex Morse is under bs accusations. Corporate media didn't talk about AOC before she won the first time. Now the corporate media said she will have a hard time to keep her seat and what happened? Landslide victory crushing the competition. Cori Bush didn't win the primary the first time in 2018, but now she did thanks to better name recognition. People don't always know about these great candidates, but as Kyle Kulinski says, if you keep showing up, eventually you have enough name recognition and you will win. Being for medicare for all and tuition free education and other progressive ideas are popular among people and if people know you are for them they will support you.
Corporate Dems have the money, name recognition and support from corporate media while the progressive candidates have superior political message, grassroot action and support of independent lefty media such as TYT. If the playing ground was even, progressives would dominate the elections, but the oligarchs try their best to keep the system rigged.
You won't hear this on corporate media. Of course you won't. They are part of the oligarchic system.
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PMSo less than half the Democratic party voted for progressives, and the Democrats account for about a third of American voters. That means in saying 20% of American voters would vote for progressives, I am actually overstating their strength.
Hopefully you now understand why people vote this way, often sadly against their own best. People overhelmingly support progressive policies, but the playground is rigged against progressive candidates. Lefties are working hard to "unrig" the system and thanks to this hard work the amount of elected progressives is increasing while the corporates are panicking. Justice Democrats was founded day after Trump started his presidency and it looks like soon a dozen of Justice Democrats are elected. Not bad! Slowly the progressives will invade the Democratic party and win the civil war inside the party and they can make it the working people party it should have been all along. At least that's the plan.
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PMAlso bear in mind that a good deal of progressive ideas are merely mainstream ideas overlaid with a socialist veneer of over centralized planning and command. When you see "moderates" and "independents" support so called progressive ideas, they are usually in favor of the ideas without the socialist veneer. The ideas you deride as neo-liberal and corporate are really mainstream and moderate. That's why they are popular.
Some things just work better when they are socialized. Progressives are not for socializing everything, only when that benefits regular people. For example progressives are totally ok with private healthcare
providers. Progressives are "only" calling for centralized
financing of healthcare, because that works empirically much better than having private insurance companies financing healthcare leading to insane incentives.
Don't be a fool and believe the smears of corporate media about these things. They are not in the business of informing people. They are in the business of upholding the oligarchy which they are benefactors of.
Sigh.
You keep demonstrating at length that you know very little about politics here in the US.
The people in the Rust Belt who voted for Trump voted for him because he's socially conservative and xenophobic. The people who didn't vote for Hillary didn't vote for her because of her personal corruption.
And progressives tend to be among the most arrogant people in politics.
Catching up on the episode before last of the Ezra Klein podcast:
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-ezra-klein-show/e/76832749#/
"Episode Info:
For 30 years, Stuart Stevens was one of the most influential operatives in Republican politics. He was Mitt Romney's top strategist in 2012, served in key roles on both of George W. Bush's presidential campaigns, and worked on dozens of congressional and gubernatorial campaigns — building one of the best winning records in politics. Then Stevens watched his party throw its support behind a man who stood against everything he believed in, or thought he believed in.
Most dissidents from Trumpism take a familiar line: They didn't leave the Republican Party; the Republican Party left them. But for Stevens, Trump forced a more fundamental rethinking: The problem, he believes, is not that the GOP became something it wasn't; it's that many of those within it — including him — failed to see what it actually was. In his new book, It Was All a Lie, he delivers a searing indictment of the party he helped build and his role in it.
This is a conversation about the Republican Party's past, present, and future. We discuss the differences between the Democratic and Republican coalitions, whether party elites could have prevented Trump's rise, the power the GOP base holds, the relationship between tax cuts for the rich and white identity politics for the poor, where the party can and can't go after Trump, the GOP operatives trying to put Kanye West on the 2020 ballot, how Stevens played the race card in his first campaigns, why Romney lost while Trump won, and much more."
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41nCl6apRnL.jpg)
As an ex-conservative I have learned some of the interesting differences between conservatives and liberals.
One of the strengths of conservatives is they are a pretty unified group. You put one hundred conservative in a row and 70% will point in the same direction. Put one hundred liberals in a row and they all point in a different direction. It makes me chuckle watching all the liberals squabbling among themselves over why Hillary lost.
I would have thought the last four years of so called conservatives falling in line behind Trump has shown that to be a weakness rather than a strength.
Were you posting that as a response to the podcast I linked to?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2020, 03:17:51 PM
Yes we have and at this point this feels rather frustrating. I don't know how to put my words to make my message clear or do I have to accept no matter what I say it doesn't have any effect? Looks like that...
Then stop posting interminable broadsides.
QuoteIf she was progressive people would not find her arrogant and corrupt.
This is laughable. Do you think all politicians have to do is say "I'm progressive!" and people like you?
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 01:13:31 PM
We've been through this before.
Hillary lost because she is arrogant and corrupt. She didn't lose votes because people didn't like her policies. She didn't lose because she was the "corporate" candidate.She lost votes because people didn't like her.
You state this as a fact. But liking someone is not a hard fact.
I got the impression a lot of people liked her well enough. Remember, she did win the popular vote.
In addition, I doubt she was or is "corrupt" in a remarkable degree, for a politician. Obviously she doesn't come even close to Trump's 360 degrees corruption.
The biggest mistake was opting for a "my turn" entitlement candidate in a "change" year. And even under those circumstances 63 million people voted Hillary.
The lesson may or may not be: don't even come close to political dynasties. No sons, spouses, cousins or other namesakes. American politics and government is increasingly turning into an oligarchy and voters don't want this. Of course, the irony is the current incumbent is nepotism incarnate.
Quote from: Herman on August 15, 2020, 10:24:45 PM
The biggest mistake was opting for an "my turn" entitlement candidate in a "change" year. And even under those circumstances 63 million people voted Hillary.
The lesson may or may not be: don't even come close to political dynasties. No sons, spouses, cousins or other namesakes. American politics and government is increasing turning into an oligarchy and voters don't want this. Of course, the irony is the current incumbent is nepotism incarnate.
Yep, they're doing it
again.... (And they might lose
again)
Which in my mind means that that's how the US political system is wired.
Makes you wonder if the system is at all able to change itself?
Q
In a way, yes, Biden is a 'my turn now' candidate too. But a also the kind of regular no-drama guy people desperately need now.
The weirdest thing, of course, is that people have a choice between two candidates who are so old that will have a really hard time serving the full four years without dropping dead.
Obama's relative youth is a haunting memory. A president who could snap his fingers without spraining his shoulder.
Quote from: Herman on August 16, 2020, 01:04:09 AM
The weirdest thing, of course, is that people have a choice between two candidates who are so old that will have a really hard time serving the full four years without dropping dead.
Somewhat like the Soviet Union ca. 1982...
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Sigh.
You keep demonstrating at length that you know very little about politics here in the US.
Could you stop calling me clueless please. Look at my post! Do you think anyone can craft a post like that without knowing what she/he is talking about?
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 03:40:51 PMThe people in the Rust Belt who voted for Trump voted for him because he's socially conservative and xenophobic. The people who didn't vote for Hillary didn't vote for her because of her personal corruption.
And progressives tend to be among the most arrogant people in politics.
Some people voted for Trump for those reasons but not all. Not everybody in the rust belt are racists and people who are racists are other things too, such as unemploid due to outsourced jobs. Some people voted for Trump because of his racism, some people despite of his racism. The Dems can't compete the Republicans in racism. The Republicans are masters at that. For many the candidates had pros and cons and they had to weight them to make their mind. Hillary couldn't offer much social conservatism and xenophobic. She should have offered something else, but she offered prerry much nothing. No wonder she lost. In the US people need to vote for people they hate all the tiime as the lesser of two evils. The left hates Biden, but is forced to vote for him because Trump is much worse and the US must het rid of him.
Quote from: Herman on August 15, 2020, 10:14:34 PM
Then stop posting interminable broadsides.
This is laughable. Do you think all politicians have to do is say "I'm progressive!" and people like you?
Why is it me who should stop doing this or that? JBS can ignore my posts and so can you.
Calling yourself progressive is not enough. You have to be progressive. Fight for medicare for all! Do not take corporate money. That's when people know you are a progressive fighting for them instead of serving the top 1 %.
A lot of people voted for Hillary, in spite of Clinton Fatigue, faute de mieux (raises hand) Calling Biden "the 2020 Hillary My Turn Entitlement Candidate" is a false equivalency insufficiently distanced from Poju's "Biden and Trump are the same" chart.
Quote from: JBS on August 15, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Sigh.
You keep demonstrating at length that you know very little about politics here in the US.
The people in the Rust Belt who voted for Trump voted for him because he's socially conservative and xenophobic. The people who didn't vote for Hillary didn't vote for her because of her personal corruption.
And progressives tend to be among the most arrogant people in politics.
You understand the above is a simplistic analysis, right? People voted for Trump for a number of reasons. People didn't vote for Hillary for a number of reasons. Some of the latter can be found in Part I of the Mueller Report.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 16, 2020, 05:18:46 AM
You understand the above is a simplistic analysis, right? People voted for Trump for a number of reasons. People didn't vote for Hillary for a number of reasons. Some of the latter can be found in Part I of the Mueller Report.
That's true. But I am trying to get
71 dB to understand that the main reason people didn't vote for Hillary was not her policies, but things very specific to her which had no bearing on the policies.
71 dB thinks Hillary's loss was a rejection of centrist policies. It wasn't.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2020, 03:40:23 AM
Could you stop calling me clueless please. Look at my post! Do you think anyone can craft a post like that without knowing what she/he is talking about?
Yes.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 16, 2020, 02:34:12 AM
Somewhat like the Soviet Union ca. 1982...
Not really. Kamala is only 55. Maybe she's the American Gorbachev? Nah.
Anyway, it's good to see other people continue to post about the 2016 election. Very topical. The takeaway is that butthurt lasts for years.
People didn't vote against HRC because of "corruption". The corruption meme applies to her because she is disliked.
I will now explain the basis for the corruption charge. As her political career advanced, donations to the Clinton Foundation rose dramatically. After 2016 donations dropped just as dramatically.
One might suspect that some donors were attempting to buy influence. That's what I suspect. So I naturally would want to see evidence that the Foundation was selling influence. Since the foundation is well regarded and exhibits no signs of being driven by hidden motives (easily discovered because charitable foundations are subject to precisely that kind of scrutiny), I would have to rely on the results of the notorious investigation by the Department of Trumpist Justice.
Justice Dept. winds down Clinton-related inquiry once championed by Trump. It found nothing of consequence. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-winds-down-clinton-related-inquiry-once-championed-by-trump-it-found-nothing-of-consequence/2020/01/09/ca83932e-32f9-11ea-a053-dc6d944ba776_story.html)
Quote from: Dowder on August 16, 2020, 07:47:02 AMTalk like that will only backfire on you.
You obviously misunderstand. I dislike Super-Creepy 46. He will win. I experienced a similar phenomenon in 1992 when I predicted months before the election that Slick Willy would win.
Quote from: Dowder on August 16, 2020, 07:47:02 AMReagan was almost 70 when he won in 1980.
Super-Creepy 46 will be older on his first day as president than Reagan was on his last day.
Quote from: Dowder on August 16, 2020, 08:17:54 AMHowever, your prediction is too bold.
169,615.
10.2.
One of the numbers may go down. One will only go up.
I doubt that even dowder or Huggy Bear imagine that President "I aced the cognitive test" is playing 5D chess . . . why would he do something that gives Congress an opportunity to look better than he (again)?
House accelerates oversight of Postal Service as uproar grows, demanding top officials testify at 'urgent' hearing (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/08/16/postal-service-mail-democrats-hearing-dejoy/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_hearing-11am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
I do not understand much of the debate. It seems that just some common sense would resolve many of the issues that have been raised.
For example, Hillary's likability. Most of the people I know who vote for her liked her. And many of those who disliked her were hard core Republicans who would never vote for a Democrat. And of course there were some Democrats who voted for Trump because they disliked Hillary. My guess is that they now regret that decision. There are many convoluted reasons why Hillary lost and Trump won.
Quote from: Dowder on August 16, 2020, 08:27:03 AM
Hence why many see the system as being so dysfunctional and corrupt it can't reform itself. Along with Benghazi, the emails, Comey's treachery, etc.
Then your complaint is not with Hillary, but the System and its Trumpist leaders. I mean, if
they can't find something on HildaBeast the whole world must be corrupt.
Let's review. If Trumpists found criminality that would reveal HB was corrupt, and if they couldn't find anything that would reveal the FBI and DOJ are corrupt, but the good part is HB gets to be corrupt, too. There's no room anywhere in your cosmology for investigators finding nothing of the kind you want to be there because they looked and didn't find it.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 05:34:34 AM
That's true. But I am trying to get 71 dB to understand that the main reason people didn't vote for Hillary was not her policies, but things very specific to her which had no bearing on the policies. 71 dB thinks Hillary's loss was a rejection of centrist policies. It wasn't.
I agree. Carry on ... and good luck with that. :)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 04:55:30 AMBiden and Trump are the same"
No, they are not. There's plenty of differences between the two. Biden is shitty and Trump is (much) shittier. The left would never ever vote for Biden if there was a (real) better option, but there just isn't. Only a much worse alternative.
Trump Chief-of-Staff Mark Meadows: Lack of Evidence of Mail-In Voting Fraud Is the 'Definition of Fraud' (https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-chief-of-staff-mark-meadows-says-lack-of-evidence-of-mail-in-voting-fraud-is-the-definition-of-fraud?ref=home)
"But there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud," Tapper added after Meadows reiterated his concern with voter rolls.
"There's no evidence that there's not either. That's the definition of fraud, Jake," the chief of staff shot back, causing the CNN anchor to do a double-take.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/tongue.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/tongue.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/tongue.gif)
Quote from: arpeggio on August 15, 2020, 08:31:29 PM
As an ex-conservative I have learned some of the interesting differences between conservatives and liberals.
One of the strengths of conservatives is they are a pretty unified group. You put one hundred conservative in a row and 70% will point in the same direction. Put one hundred liberals in a row and they all point in a different direction. It makes me chuckle watching all the liberals squabbling among themselves over why Hillary lost.
There needs to be more than two parties...
the most diverse country in the world having only two main political parties doesn't make any sense.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 05:34:34 AM
That's true. But I am trying to get 71 dB to understand that the main reason people didn't vote for Hillary was not her policies, but things very specific to her which had no bearing on the policies. 71 dB thinks Hillary's loss was a rejection of centrist policies. It wasn't.
Well, try then: Please explain me
which of the policies of H.C. are inspiring enough to having made people to vote for her had they not hated her? You can make your claims convincing by providing poll numbers showing those policies really are popular among people. I need to understand how centrist policies would benefit regular people in the rust belt to understand how it must have been the hate that prevented people voting for her and not the policies.
Quote from: greg on August 16, 2020, 09:41:03 AM
There needs to be more than two parties...
the most diverse country in the world having only two main political parties doesn't make any sense.
Totally agreed. The US has third parties, but the system is totally rigged for the two big parties. Rank choice voting would help a lot. People who want to vote for the Green Party could do that without the fear of their vote getting "wasted" putting The Dems as the second choice. So, if the Green Party candidate doesn't win, their vote goes to the Dem (against the Reps).
Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2020, 09:44:16 AM
Well, try then: Please explain me which of the policies of H.C. are inspiring enough to having made people to vote for her had they not hated her? You can make your claims convincing by providing poll numbers showing those policies really are popular among people. I need to understand how centrist policies would benefit regular people in the rust belt to understand how it must have been the hate that prevented people voting for her and not the policies.
HRC was more centrist than OBama 2008, 2012 or Kerry 2004. Many researchers found a strong connection between voters' sexism scale and their voting choice. Of course these voters do not "consciously' think that "oh I do not vote her because she is woman." Usually, and easily, they will find pretexts that will make them comfortable about their decisions. And the Republicans and conservative media did a great job providing these pretexts.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2020, 10:01:37 AM
Totally agreed. The US has third parties, but the system is totally rigged for the two big parties. Rank choice voting would help a lot. People who want to vote for the Green Party could do that without the fear of their vote getting "wasted" putting The Dems as the second choice. So, if the Green Party candidate doesn't win, their vote goes to the Dem (against the Reps).
By replacing the majority winner take all rule in states for presidential election, as well as in districts for congressional election, with proportional representation system will remove the current penalty against third parties.
My involuntary guffaw was on seeing a Trumpkin claiming to be concerned about corruption.
Poju, note esp,: "Biden and Harris have deprived Trump of the "socialist" target Republicans yearned to confront. Yes, the Democrats have a robust and progressive agenda, but they are not outlawing private health-care insurance. They are not condemning capitalism. The charge that they are crazy leftists simply falls flat.
What kind of nutty stuff are they doing? Offering subsidized child care so working parents can get back to their jobs. That does not sound like socialism to anyone outside the right-wing fever swamps. An infrastructure plan isn't radical; in fact, Trump has tried over and over again to launch one but has been too incompetent to pull it off. Strengthening Obamacare? Most Americans don't think that is socialism. They like it. What is radical is going to court to eliminate the entire Affordable Care Act. It is apparent that the radicals in the election are the Republicans, whose hostility to government and loyalty to the donor class have created a sort of dystopian nightmare where only the plutocrats have the resources to fend for themselves."
Democrats know exactly what the campaign is about (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/16/democrats-know-exactly-what-campaign-is-about/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-d-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 10:53:06 AM
Strengthening Obamacare? Most Americans don't think that is socialism. They like it.
It's not socialism if you like it? That sounds like something I would say.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 10:26:03 AM
My involuntary guffaw was on seeing a Trumpkin claiming to be concerned about corruption.
We just don't understand how all the stories about Trump's corruption are liberal far-left hoaxes by the fake news media... ::)
Trump eyes Putin meeting before November election, say four people familiar with discussions (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-eyes-putin-meeting-november-election-say-four-people-familiar-n1236861)
Somebody should tell Vladdy to stop smirking. It spoils the effect.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 10:53:06 AM
Poju, note esp,: "Biden and Harris have deprived Trump of the "socialist" target Republicans yearned to confront. Yes, the Democrats have a robust and progressive agenda, but they are not outlawing private health-care insurance. They are not condemning capitalism. The charge that they are crazy leftists simply falls flat.
What kind of nutty stuff are they doing? Offering subsidized child care so working parents can get back to their jobs. That does not sound like socialism to anyone outside the right-wing fever swamps. An infrastructure plan isn't radical; in fact, Trump has tried over and over again to launch one but has been too incompetent to pull it off. Strengthening Obamacare? Most Americans don't think that is socialism. They like it. What is radical is going to court to eliminate the entire Affordable Care Act. It is apparent that the radicals in the election are the Republicans, whose hostility to government and loyalty to the donor class have created a sort of dystopian nightmare where only the plutocrats have the resources to fend for themselves."
Democrats know exactly what the campaign is about (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/16/democrats-know-exactly-what-campaign-is-about/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-d-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Your antipathy to the "donor class" and its "dystopian nightmare" leaves out one important fact: this is the cohort who works to pay for your subsidized child-care, health system and education. Without them you're back to bartering - or streets stalls. Who do you think paid for your hospital treatment recently when you were ill: the fairy godmother? Donations? I guess you felt entitled to all of it without having to think that far.
Such infantilism is, sadly, typical of the Left and its 'cyclopian' (one-eyed, for all those who don't understand myth) reactionary politics. That and making sure everybody conforms to your group-think and views. And woe betide anybody who disagrees; off with their heads!!
I'm sorry for you that you couldn't live in the old USSR where everybody was in the same boat; everybody had a job and nobody was doing anything. And they didn't have corruption - or anything - either!!!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 10:53:06 AM
Poju, note esp,: "Biden and Harris have deprived Trump of the "socialist" target Republicans yearned to confront.
Not true. They say Biden/DNC are
controlled by the "radical left" which is a laughable lie, but some morons believe it. They will always call The Dems "radical left" even if the Dems where more right-wing than the members of the Tea Party!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/19/trump-2020-joe-biden-extreme-left
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 10:53:06 AMYes, the Democrats have a robust and progressive agenda, but they are not outlawing private health-care insurance. They are not condemning capitalism. The charge that they are crazy leftists simply falls flat.
This is astonishing corporate nonsense. The Dems do not have a robust and progressive agenda. DNC ignores the progressives in the party as much as possible. The Dems won't allow
even a vote on medicare for all in the house despite a massive majority (around 80 %) of Democratic voters supporting it. Doing medicare for all would not be "condemning capitalism". It would be doing things in a more rational, human and effective way to cover everybody while saving money. Not doing medicare for all is comdemning a part of the population outside healthcare. It's comdemning rationality and human decency. In certain areas capitalism works worse than "socialism" and in those areas using capitalism is plain stupid, but it allows some people to get very rich... ...and those rich people bribe the Republicans and corporate Dems to keep the for profit system running. By this moronic logic Police and Fire Departments condemn capitalism everyday. The charge that "they" are crazy leftists certainly falls factually flat, but in the world of alternative facts some people believe it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 10:53:06 AMWhat kind of nutty stuff are they doing? Offering subsidized child care so working parents can get back to their jobs. That does not sound like socialism to anyone outside the right-wing fever swamps. An infrastructure plan isn't radical; in fact, Trump has tried over and over again to launch one but has been too incompetent to pull it off. Strengthening Obamacare? Most Americans don't think that is socialism. They like it. What is radical is going to court to eliminate the entire Affordable Care Act. It is apparent that the radicals in the election are the Republicans, whose hostility to government and loyalty to the donor class have created a sort of dystopian nightmare where only the plutocrats have the resources to fend for themselves."
People should seriously stop thinking about whether something is capitalism or socialism and instead think about what is the best way to do it. Sometimes it's capitalism. Sometimes it's socialism. The US has tried private fire department in the past only to find out it just doesn't work or make sense. Similar conclusions about the healthcare are
decades overdue.
Corporate Dems are just as loyal to their donors than the Republicans. They sell the same corporatism to Americans, only with social liberalism instead of conservatism. No matter if the President is Republican or a Democrat: There's Walls Street goons in the administration to draft Walls Street friendly legistlation while the needs of regular people are almost completely forgotten. Sure, corporate Dems are
better than the Republicans, especially on social issues, but on economic issues the difference is tiny.
Quote from: drogulus on August 16, 2020, 01:13:03 PM
It's not socialism if you like it? That sounds like something I would say.
I don't see an If/Then in the source remark 8)
Quote from: Christabel on August 16, 2020, 01:50:02 PM
I'm sorry for you that you couldn't live in the old USSR where everybody was in the same boat; everybody had a job and nobody was doing anything. And they didn't have corruption - or anything - either!!!
Why do people on the right always have to talk about some authoritarian shitholes as if there wasn't 200 countries in the World to look for good models for the US? The left advocates social democracy because it works very well in Nordic countries. As someone living in Finland (chosen the happiest country in the World for the third year in the row and the other Nordic countries are not much behind while the US ranks lower) I can testify it doesn't look like old USSR or Venezuela over here and we have tons of "socialism" in our economy together with capitalism. We have single payer healthcare. We have "free" education etc. It works pretty well.
Quote from: Christabel on August 16, 2020, 01:50:02 PM
Your antipathy to the "donor class" and its "dystopian nightmare" leaves out one important fact: this is the cohort who works to pay for your subsidized child-care, health system and education.
Government spending is not paid for by taxation, but even if you indulged the fantasy that taxes paid for stuff besides the tax bill, the taxes are largely paid by people with smaller incomes than donors have. It's even a conservative talking point that this is so. Don't raise our taxes to pay for goodies, they say. We don't have enough money!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 02:43:47 PM
I don't see an If/Then in the source remark 8)
I think you could say that OCare became less socialistic as it became more popular. It would certainly be consistent with my view that "popular" and "radical" and/or "socialist" are held to be exclusive categories by the category experts.
Worth pointing out that the piece including your trigger phrases, "hostility to government and loyalty to the donor class have created a sort of dystopian nightmare where only the plutocrats have the resources to fend for themselves." was penned by a Conservative.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2020, 05:29:43 AM
We get our cheap jollies from his flouting his Oath of office and the Law:
Federal criminal law (18 USC 1701):
Whoever knowingly and willfully obstructs or retards the passage of the mail, or any carrier or conveyance carrying the mail, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
Karl,
Good research! But shouldn't it even be worse if the President were pushing this agenda in order to effect the election? I don't know all of the rules behind what is currently going on.
PD
I suspect the cited statute does not apply in a case where the Postmaster General makes operational changes. Perhaps real lawyers familiar with the subject matter could offer a meaningful legal opinion, as opposed to something one finds on GMG.
John C. Eastman 2016: Senator Ted Cruz (born in Canada) is Eligible to be President.
John C. Eastman 2020: Senator Kamala Harris (born in the US) is not Eligible to be VP.
:P
Quote from: Todd on August 16, 2020, 03:24:33 PM
I suspect the cited statute does not apply in a case where the Postmaster General makes operational changes. Perhaps real lawyers familiar with the subject matter could offer a meaningful legal opinion, as opposed to something one finds on GMG.
One could make a deep investigation for intent, but since the evidence would require telepathic scans of DeJoy and others, one would be unlikely to get it.*
Which means all those referrals and promises of investigation by state authorities are simply performance art and every lawyer who does not realize that is equal in legal skilld to Prof. Eastman.
*It is of course possible emails exist. But even Trump is not normally that stupid.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:06:55 PM
One could make a deep investigation for intent, but since the evidence would require telepathic scans of DeJoy and others, one would be unlikely to get it.*
Which means all those referrals and promises of investigation by state authorities are simply performance art and every lawyer who does not realize that is equal in legal skilld to Prof. Eastman.
*It is of course possible emails exist. But even Trump is not normally that stupid.
Then I wonder why the statute was cited in the first place given the exactingly high intellectual standards on the board. One is forced to conclude that it was basest virtue signaling.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2020, 02:55:26 PM
Why do people on the right always have to talk about some authoritarian shitholes as if there wasn't 200 countries in the World to look for good models for the US? The left advocates social democracy because it works very well in Nordic countries. As someone living in Finland (chosen the happiest country in the World for the third year in the row and the other Nordic countries are not much behind while the US ranks lower) I can testify it doesn't look like old USSR or Venezuela over here and we have tons of "socialism" in our economy together with capitalism. We have single payer healthcare. We have "free" education etc. It works pretty well.
You're assuming that it would work like it does in Scandinavia. There are significant differences, including scale and diversity of population. IIRC LA public schools have to deliver services in 16 different languages. That's just one (very big) city. Does anyplace in Scandinavia match that. And European states have a history of government intervention in the economy and social services that goes back centuries. Here in the US that tradition is, relative to the federal government, much shorter. Medicare was established after I was born, and the number of people still alive who were born before Social Security was started is still above 0.
You're also assuming Medicare for All is the only possible way to get to universal health care. It's not. You're also assuming that it would not be afflicted with all the problems large government programs tend to be afflicted by, an assumption with no connection to reality.
Quote from: Todd on August 16, 2020, 06:16:48 PM
Then I wonder why the statute was cited in the first place given the exactingly high intellectual standards on the board. One is forced to conclude that it was basest virtue signaling.
Do remember that there aren't many people here with a legal background (to the best of my knowledge). And one of them who does is an Australian who does not participate in these threads .
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:25:25 PMDo remember that there aren't many people here with a legal background (to the best of my knowledge). And one of them who does is an Australian who does not participate in these threads .
Oh, yes, that is a well known fact, and a perpetual source of mirth.
Fyi, gov spending as percentage of gdp (2018):
USA 35%, UK 38%, Japan 37%, Canada 40%, China 35%, Russia 32%, Germany 45%, Scandinavian nations about 50%, France 56%.
USA is not significantly/decidedly less-socialist, or more laisezfaire govt, than other countries. Also, historically, the size of U.S. govt spending is not related at all to the partisanship of President or majority parties in the upper and lower chamber of Congress.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2020, 10:53:06 AM
Poju, note esp,: "Biden and Harris have deprived Trump of the "socialist" target Republicans yearned to confront. Yes, the Democrats have a robust and progressive agenda, but they are not outlawing private health-care insurance. They are not condemning capitalism. The charge that they are crazy leftists simply falls flat.
What kind of nutty stuff are they doing? Offering subsidized child care so working parents can get back to their jobs. That does not sound like socialism to anyone outside the right-wing fever swamps. An infrastructure plan isn't radical; in fact, Trump has tried over and over again to launch one but has been too incompetent to pull it off. Strengthening Obamacare? Most Americans don't think that is socialism. They like it. What is radical is going to court to eliminate the entire Affordable Care Act. It is apparent that the radicals in the election are the Republicans, whose hostility to government and loyalty to the donor class have created a sort of dystopian nightmare where only the plutocrats have the resources to fend for themselves."
Democrats know exactly what the campaign is about (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/16/democrats-know-exactly-what-campaign-is-about/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-d-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
The model of Obamacare was the Governor Mitt Romney's health care policy in Massachusetts. A guy at MIT made a core plan for the both.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:25:25 PM
Do remember that there aren't many people here with a legal background (to the best of my knowledge). And one of them who does is an Australian who does not participate in these threads .
No, don't remember that, it's of no use. Non-lawyers can competently cite statutes when they are referring to opinions of lawyers who cite them.
Phony credentialism has a smell to it, a smell of mendacity, Big Daddy would say.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/24/f2/6d/24f26da3ffd69b6d478bec46fcf125c2.jpg)
Former Attorney General Holder Suggests Postmaster General Should Be Prosecuted (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/former-attorney-general-holder-postmaster-general-prosecuted.html)
I note this, that as a non-lawyer my opinion that the case would be hard to prove might turn out to be more predictive of the chances for a prosecution than the opinion of the former AG that a prosecution should happen.
Quote from: drogulus on August 16, 2020, 07:10:51 PM
No, don't remember that, it's of no use. Non-lawyers can competently cite statutes when they are referring to opinions of lawyers who cite them.
Phony credentialism has a smell to it, a smell of mendacity, Big Daddy would say.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/24/f2/6d/24f26da3ffd69b6d478bec46fcf125c2.jpg)
Former Attorney General Holder Suggests Postmaster General Should Be Prosecuted (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/former-attorney-general-holder-postmaster-general-prosecuted.html)
I note this, that as a non-lawyer my opinion that the case would be hard to prove might turn out to be more predictive of the chances for a prosecution than the opinion of the former AG that a prosecution should happen.
1)Barr Holder is engaging in politics, not law.
2)I was admitted to the Florida Bar on November 22, 1983.
Quote from: Christabel on August 16, 2020, 01:50:02 PM
Your antipathy to the "donor class" and its "dystopian nightmare" leaves out one important fact: this is the cohort who works to pay for your subsidized child-care, health system and education. Without them you're back to bartering - or streets stalls. Who do you think paid for your hospital treatment recently when you were ill: the fairy godmother? Donations? I guess you felt entitled to all of it without having to think that far.
Such infantilism is, sadly, typical of the Left and its 'cyclopian' (one-eyed, for all those who don't understand myth) reactionary politics. That and making sure everybody conforms to your group-think and views. And woe betide anybody who disagrees; off with their heads!!
I'm sorry for you that you couldn't live in the old USSR where everybody was in the same boat; everybody had a job and nobody was doing anything. And they didn't have corruption - or anything - either!!!
Shame on you, disgusting attack
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 16, 2020, 06:52:25 PM
Fyi, gov spending as percentage of gdp (2018):
USA 35%, UK 38%, Japan 37%, Canada 40%, China 35%, Russia 32%, Germany 45%, Scandinavian nations about 50%, France 56%.
USA is not significantly/decidedly less-socialist, or more laisezfaire govt, than other countries. Also, historically, the size of U.S. govt spending is not related at all to the partisanship of President or majority parties in the upper and lower chamber of Congress.
Countries must operate somewhere in the inflation/deflation band for their respective economies. That limits spending, whatever -isms say. You go too far in one direction and you end up going too far in the other. Where the ideologies really differ is on where in the band you operate, closer to the upper limit (optimal output) or to the lower (shrink to grow).
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 07:18:23 PM
1)Barr Holder is engaging in politics, not law.
2)I was admitted to the Florida Bar on November 22, 1983.
That's quite a goalpost shift. I thought the objection was to non-lawyers having opinions, not lawyers expressing views that have political implications.
Certainly Holder's view can be construed as political, as would be the case for a former Bush official taking an opposing view. I note lawyers make arguments to jurors, who are not lawyers, who then make life or death decisions without being admitted to the bar.
Quote from: drogulus on August 16, 2020, 08:00:37 PM
That's quite a goalpost shift. I thought the objection was to non-lawyers having opinions, not lawyers expressing views that have political implications.
Certainly Holder's view can be construed as political, as would be the case for a former Bush official taking an opposing view. I note lawyers make arguments to jurors, who are not lawyers, who then make life or death decisions without being admitted to the bar.
Jurors do so only after the judge has read out them detailed instructions about the laws pertinent to the case at hand.
Also jurors are the decider of fact. If there is a question of law, the judge decides it.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 08:12:39 PM
Jurors do so only after the judge has read out them detailed instructions about the laws pertinent to the case at hand.
Also jurors are the decider of fact. If there is a question of law, the judge decides it.
That's why I seek out explanations lawyers provide, of law and facts. I find it bizarre to imagine that lawyers spend so much effort trying to convince people who are not qualified to understand them. Presumably their lack of credentials makes them impervious to the instructions of judges as well.
Maybe you're making the best of a bad argument, but it's really really bad.
Regarding intent, I think that might be less important than "knowingly". The intent to damage the election, or elect Trump, or whatever the reason might be, may not figure in a prosecution.
Whoever knowingly and willfully obstructs or retards the passage of the mail...... He can have any intent or none.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PM
You're assuming that it would work like it does in Scandinavia.
You are assuming that it wouldn't work like it does in Scandinavia.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PMThere are significant differences, including scale and diversity of population.
The US can do these things on State level. Oregon has the same population as Finland. Germany doesn't struggle with these things and is much bigger than California. These things are scalable. 10 times bigger country has 10 times more sick people, but also 10 times more tax payers to pay for the heathcare. Only when the country is very small (much less than a million people), this scalability starts to fall down because of hostitals etc.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PMIIRC LA public schools have to deliver services in 16 different languages.
And...? Aren't PUBLIC schools paid from tax money
already? What the US should do is to strenghten it's public schools increasing the funding. In Finland the kids of rich families go the
same schools as kids of poor families so that the rich happily pay more taxes so that the schools have enough money and are good. The result? Finnish education system is considered one of the best in the World.
You simply hire teachers so that those 16 languages are served. What's so difficult about that? Well, it's not mayby easy to find all those teaches, maybe the teaching material is a challenge, but some things take effort and in Nordic countries schools have multiple languages. My old school became much more international after I graduated in 1990 and today teaches the following languages:
English
Spanish
Japanese
Chinese
Korean
French
Swedish
German
Russian
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PMThat's just one (very big) city.
Are you saying the other cities have invented languages of their own or what is the problem here?
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PMDoes anyplace in Scandinavia match that.
No, because we don't think about non-existing problems. We try to find solutions to the real problems.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PMAnd European states countries have a history of government intervention in the economy and social services that goes back centuries.
Yes, but it's not as we had everything on day one. These things have been build one by one over the years. Finland was somewhat poor country in the past, but Finns used the ideas of social democracy and hard work to change that.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PMHere in the US that tradition is, relative to the federal government, much shorter. Medicare was established after I was born, and the number of people still alive who were born before Social Security was started is still above 0.
Hopefully you aren't saying nothing can be improved because of traditions. "Our tradition is to suck!" ;D
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:22:24 PMYou're also assuming Medicare for All is the only possible way to get to universal health care. It's not. You're also assuming that it would not be afflicted with all the problems large government programs tend to be afflicted by, an assumption with no connection to reality.
I don't care how the US gets to a single payer system. Medicare for all is the marketing name and as there is already Medicare, expanding it, building on it's foundations looks a logical thing.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 16, 2020, 07:05:13 PM
The model of Obamacare was the Governor Mitt Romney's health care policy in Massachusetts. A guy at MIT made a core plan for the both.
Yes.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 16, 2020, 06:52:25 PM
Fyi, gov spending as percentage of gdp (2018):
USA 35%, UK 38%, Japan 37%, Canada 40%, China 35%, Russia 32%, Germany 45%, Scandinavian nations about 50%, France 56%.
USA is not significantly/decidedly less-socialist, or more laisezfaire govt, than other countries. Also, historically, the size of U.S. govt spending is not related at all to the partisanship of President or majority parties in the upper and lower chamber of Congress.
The numbers are off slightly (see https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-spending.htm), but the overall point is correct. The standard failure of criticisms of the US in this area is that the focus is on federal government expenditures alone. It represents typical lefty intellectual laziness.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 16, 2020, 06:52:25 PM
Fyi, gov spending as percentage of gdp (2018):
USA 35%, UK 38%, Japan 37%, Canada 40%, China 35%, Russia 32%, Germany 45%, Scandinavian nations about 50%, France 56%.
USA is not significantly/decidedly less-socialist, or more laisezfaire govt, than other countries. Also, historically, the size of U.S. govt spending is not related at all to the partisanship of President or majority parties in the upper and lower chamber of Congress.
Those numbers are debated, at least. Our official statistical department says 14% of GDP of government spending in the US, and 25% in Denmark (2018).
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 17, 2020, 04:53:21 AM
Those numbers are debated, at least. Our public, statistical office says 14% of GDP of government spending in the US, and 25% in Denmark.
We live in a post-truth world.
Posting this here, as the human cost is in large measure a matter of "Presidential " negligence . . . ad all the morally upright Trumpkins
Don't just look at covid-19 fatality rates. Look at people who survive — but don't entirely recover. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dont-just-look-at-covid-19-fatality-rates-look-at-people-who-survive--but-dont-entirely-recover/2020/08/14/3b3de170-de6a-11ea-8051-d5f887d73381_story.html?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-e-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Quote from: Christabel on August 16, 2020, 01:50:02 PM
(...)
Such infantilism is, sadly, typical of the Left and its 'cyclopian' (one-eyed, for all those who don't understand myth) reactionary politics. That and making sure everybody conforms to your group-think and views. And woe betide anybody who disagrees; off with their heads!!
I'm sorry for you that you couldn't live in the old USSR where everybody was in the same boat; everybody had a job and nobody was doing anything. And they didn't have corruption - or anything - either!!!
On the contrary, it seems that there's a Cyclopean wall between you and real, diversified politics under various circumstances. I visited one of those, and assure you: they are massive.
Does Harris as VP pick hurt or improve the chances for Biden to win?
I have read commentaries (but usually from Europeans whose insight I am not sure about) that this was handing it to Trump on a silver platter and of course also the opposite that it would mean certain triumph over the Trumpster.
Similarly, in the US some scream that she is a left wing radical whereas others point to her law and order measures in her earlier career, apparently severe to the point of cruelty (or beholden to the penitentary-industrial complex or whatever).
Quote from: Jo498 on August 17, 2020, 05:27:09 AM
Does Harris as VP pick hurt or improve the chances for Biden to win?
The Kamala Harris pick is a hit with voters so far (https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/kamala-harris-polls-voters-like-pick/index.html)
VP candidates rarely make much of a difference in the final vote tally. Maybe Eagleton made Nixon's landslide a tiny bit bigger, but that's about it.
Quote from: JBS on August 16, 2020, 06:06:55 PM
One could make a deep investigation for intent, but since the evidence would require telepathic scans of DeJoy and others, one would be unlikely to get it.*
Which means all those referrals and promises of investigation by state authorities are simply performance art and every lawyer who does not realize that is equal in legal skilld to Prof. Eastman.
*It is of course possible emails exist. But even Trump is not normally that stupid.
DeJoy's ethics violations are straightforward and don't require establishing intent. He's substantially invested in USPS competitors and contractors including XPO, a logistics firm that subcontracts mail processing and whose business picks up to the extent the USPS slows. He's also made substantial investments in Amazon since becoming Post Master General. These sorts of conflicts of interest used to raise eyebrows.
As for the Trump Administration's hopes to undermine mail-in voting: That's just a recent afterthought to decades-long efforts at undermining the USPS, the most lethal being the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006. This legislation, passed by voice vote in a lame duck session of Congress, required funding retirement benefits to the tune of $5 billion yearly for ten years, while restricting postage increases to the rate of inflation. This act turned a consistently profitable USPS into a huge money loser within a couple of years. The goal of crippling the USPS is to justify its eventual privatization. Privatization is a goal affirmed in the administration's plans for government restructuring published in June 2018. The Trump Administration's role in all this is the usual random destruction, along with opportunistic, garden variety corruption.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 06:18:03 AMDeJoy's ethics violations are straightforward and don't require establishing intent.
Where did you take your law degree?
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2020, 05:32:29 AM
The Kamala Harris pick is a hit with voters so far (https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/kamala-harris-polls-voters-like-pick/index.html)
VP candidates rarely make much of a difference in the final vote tally. Maybe Eagleton made Nixon's landslide a tiny bit bigger, but that's about it.
You don't think Sarah Palin was a substantial liability?
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 06:29:10 AM
You don't think Sarah Palin was a substantial liability?
No. The whole financial crisis/severe recession thing was much more important.
A small sideshow that no one will care about, but it's still fun: NOW President Steps Down After Racism Allegations (https://www.thedailybeast.com/national-organization-for-women-president-toni-van-pelt-steps-down-after-racism-allegations?ref=scroll)
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2020, 06:28:39 AM
Where did you take your law degree?
Conflicts of interest like this are a common form of government corruption. They don't require a law degree to recognize. You should be embarrassed to suggest they do.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 06:33:54 AM
Conflicts of interest like this are a common form of government corruption. They don't require a law degree to recognize. You should be embarrassed to suggest they do.
Where did you take your law degree?
Facing a furious nation, Belarus's Lukashenko says he would rather be killed than agree to new elections (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/facing-a-furious-nation-belaruss-lukashenko-says-he-would-rather-be-killed-than-agree-to-new-elections/2020/08/17/bf10053a-e079-11ea-b69b-64f7b0477ed4_story.html?hpid=hp_world-right-4-0_world-latest-feed%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wWIbCtz_Xwk/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 06:33:54 AM
Conflicts of interest like this are a common form of government corruption. They don't require a law degree to recognize. You should be embarrassed to suggest they do.
You don't need a law degree to serve on the Supreme Court.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 17, 2020, 05:27:09 AM
Does Harris as VP pick hurt or improve the chances for Biden to win?
I have read commentaries (but usually from Europeans whose insight I am not sure about) that this was handing it to Trump on a silver platter and of course also the opposite that it would mean certain triumph over the Trumpster.
Similarly, in the US some scream that she is a left wing radical whereas others point to her law and order measures in her earlier career, apparently severe to the point of cruelty (or beholden to the penitentary-industrial complex or whatever).
I believe her to be a solid asset. The only folks screaming "left wing radical" are irredeemable Trumpkins, anyhow. I suppose there's a thin sliver of Progressive extremists who (Sanders' outreach notwithstanding) will sulk at home on 3 November, but most of the electorate understand that non-participation this year is a fool's gesture.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 06:33:54 AM
Conflicts of interest like this are a common form of government corruption. They don't require a law degree to recognize. You should be embarrassed to suggest they do.
Nothing embarrasses Huggy Bear, whether that's garden-variety smugness or insufficient self-examination is a question I leave for those better qualified than I.
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2020, 06:34:25 AM
Where did you take your law degree?
So you're unable to recognize that having a financial interest in the demise of the organization one is running (into the ground) is ethically problematic? I know I shouldn't be surprised a Trump supporter would say this, and yet I am.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 07:14:04 AM
So you're unable to recognize that having a financial interest in the demise of the organization one is running (into the ground) is ethically problematic? I know I shouldn't be surprised a Trump supporter would say this, and yet I am.
Where did you take your law degree?
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2020, 05:32:29 AM
The Kamala Harris pick is a hit with voters so far (https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/kamala-harris-polls-voters-like-pick/index.html)
That's the view of the corporate media. They LOVE Kamala Harris. She is corporate woman of color. Just perfect for the establishment, because if and when someone says something negative about her, it can be called sexist and racist.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 17, 2020, 07:23:29 AM
That's the view of the corporate media. They LOVE Kamala Harris. She is corporate woman of color. Just perfect for the establishment, because if and when someone says something negative about her, it can be called sexist and racist.
Meh. That doesn't change the fact that VP selections don't really matter.
Quote from: greg on August 15, 2020, 10:29:53 AM
Sounds like an attack to me.
If this isn't an attack, you can let me know and I'll reinterpret the meaning of people's posts.
Or maybe you could break down Trump's statement and show why it is racist?
And if you can't, that's fine, I'm not going to attack anyone for it. I just suggest people take a step back and question what they read.
Journalism is just a click-bait machine, rage-bait being the most effective in making their money. There's nothing genuine about it, it's just part of the capitalist machine. Maybe people shouldn't react to the headline so much and just read the content and question that instead.
So? Maybe question what he says then? Or is that too hard?
Quote from: greg on August 15, 2020, 10:29:53 AM
Sounds like an attack to me.
If this isn't an attack, you can let me know and I'll reinterpret the meaning of people's posts.
Forgive me if I misremember, but you're not planning to vote, right? Just a query.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2020, 07:36:35 AM
Forgive me if I misremember, but you're not planning to vote, right? Just a query.
What is the point of this post?
Maybe either talk about the topic at hand or don't say anything, rather than just saying vaguely snide remarks. I don't see anything productive in that.
Quote from: greg on August 17, 2020, 07:39:25 AM
What is the point of this post?
Maybe either talk about the topic at hand or don't say anything, rather than just saying vaguely snide remarks. I don't see anything productive in that.
The point of the post is asking a simple question, nothing snide. Do you ask yourself why you think a simple question (you want people to ask questions, I believe) is a "snide remark?"
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2020, 07:44:40 AM
The point of the post is asking a simple question, nothing snide. Do you ask yourself why you think a simple question (you want people to ask questions, I believe) is a "snide remark?"
If it isn't meant to be, then cool.
Just the way it was worded felt like it was.
Nah, probably won't vote. Just not into it, I guess.
Quote from: greg on August 17, 2020, 07:49:22 AM
If it isn't meant to be, then cool.
Just the way it was worded felt like it was.
Nah, probably won't vote. Just not into it, I guess.
Thanks for answering.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2020, 06:54:41 AM
but most of the electorate understand that non-participation this year is a fool's gesture.
just keep your fingers crossed about that one.
Quote from: Herman on August 17, 2020, 07:54:11 AM
just keep your fingers crossed about that one.
Aye.
Quote from: drogulus on August 17, 2020, 06:53:02 AM
Facing a furious nation, Belarus's Lukashenko says he would rather be killed than agree to new elections (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/facing-a-furious-nation-belaruss-lukashenko-says-he-would-rather-be-killed-than-agree-to-new-elections/2020/08/17/bf10053a-e079-11ea-b69b-64f7b0477ed4_story.html?hpid=hp_world-right-4-0_world-latest-feed%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wWIbCtz_Xwk/hqdefault.jpg)
You don't need a law degree to serve on the Supreme Court.
This pic is of another dictator. A link to the bolded text, I presume ?
https://www.youtube.com/v/_97ojsLLbR8
Quote from: André on August 17, 2020, 08:17:54 AM
This pic is of another dictator. A link to the bolded text, I presume ?
Nicolae Ceausescu, dictator of Romania I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/v/V93FA12oBCA
Quote from: 71 dB on August 17, 2020, 08:29:57 AM
Nicolae Ceausescu, dictator of Romania I believe.
Yes, he was a dictator who was killed by his adoring people, only in his case people came up with the idea on their own.
I'm not predicting Luka will "sleep with the fishes" or anything like that. I don't even have a law degree. But it seems a rash move to raise the prospect.
CBS poll of Democrats: Which of these people would you like to hear speak at the DNC?
AOC:
Yes: 63 %
No: 37 %
Bill Clinton:
Yes: 56 %
No: 44 %
John Kasich:
Yes: 38 %
No: 62 %
AOC got 60 seconds pre-recorded message. Well done DNC. ::)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2020, 08:39:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/V93FA12oBCA
It has embraced becoming the White Grievance Party
Quote from: 71 dB on August 17, 2020, 08:50:25 AM
CBS poll of Democrats: Which of these people would you like to hear speak at the DNC?
AOC:
Yes: 63 %
No: 37 %
Bill Clinton:
Yes: 56 %
No: 44 %
John Kasich:
Yes: 38 %
No: 62 %
AOC got 60 seconds pre-recorded message. Well done DNC. ::)
Dems are more afraid their future will arrive too soon for voters than they need to be. I'm not opposed to hearing Kasich, though.
Quote from: drogulus on August 17, 2020, 08:46:53 AM
Yes, he was a dictator who was killed by his adoring people, only in his case people came up with the idea on their own.
Incorrect. He was killed not by the people but by those who highjacked the people's uprising in their own interests, many of whom were his former lackeys. It's true, though, that had he fell in the hands of the people he'd most probably have been lynched.
Quote from: Florestan on August 17, 2020, 08:59:50 AM
Incorrect. He was killed not by the people but by those who highjacked the people's uprising in their own interests, many of whom were his former lackeys. It's true, though, that had he fell in the hands of the people he'd most probably have been lynched.
Yes, it does often work like that. If Luka does get killed I predict it will be an inside job. Perhaps he'll run first, though. Given the precariouness of the situation in TrumPutinLand, I don't know what options he has. Putin might put him in a gilded cage until he figures out what his next move will be. Mar-a-Lago will not welcome him. The timing is not right.
I recognize that guy Lukashenko from Bald and Bankrupt talking about him...
is the main reason that these dictators try to abolish term limits because they're scared that without the power, they will be killed? Or are they just purely that narcissistic? Or both?
If it's the first, then maybe the culture of whatever country has that problem needs to change, maybe stop threatening to kill presidents when they don't have power any more? If the second, then probably a bad system rewarding power to people like that...
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2020, 07:17:31 AM
Where did you take your law degree?
Ten year old witness: "Jeezus! Isn't that your severed right foot under that dumpster! We better get you to a hospital!"
Todd: "Where did you get your medical degree?"
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 10:20:39 AM
Ten year old witness: "Jeezus! Isn't that your severed right foot under that dumpster! We better get you to a hospital!"
Todd: "Where did you get your medical degree?"
Where did you take your law degree?
Quote from: drogulus on August 17, 2020, 08:46:53 AM
I don't even have a law degree.
I believe this disclaimer is now required by the Huggy Diner Cop with every post one makes?
It is fun to watch people who clearly have no understanding of the law pretend as though they do. It is doubly fun when non-Americans offer their expertise on American law.
Quote from: greg on August 17, 2020, 10:01:12 AM
is the main reason that these dictators try to abolish term limits because they're scared that without the power, they will be killed?
Are you trying to provoke me?
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) In the context of rigged elections what does "try to abolish term limits" mean?
Quote from: Herman on August 17, 2020, 10:31:40 AM
I believe this disclaimer is now required by the Huggy Diner Cop with every post one makes?
He's buying time for a mammoth unified theory of property liberty.
Quote from: drogulus on August 17, 2020, 10:37:46 AM
Are you trying to provoke me? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif)
In the context of rigged elections what does "try to abolish term limits" mean?
Nah, I'm speaking in general. Either one- rigged elections or abolishing term limits, what dictators around the world to maintain power longer than what their laws allow.
(for "try to abolish term limits," i just had in mind stuff that i have heard taken place in Africa many times)
What I would like to know, if anyone knows, is if their motivation is simply to hold power in order to keep their ego fed, or is it for their own personal physical safety?
Quote from: greg on August 17, 2020, 10:45:41 AM
Nah, I'm speaking in general. Either one- rigged elections or abolishing term limits, what dictators around the world to maintain power longer than what their laws allow.
(for "try to abolish term limits," i just had in mind stuff that i have heard taken place in Africa many times)
What I would like to know, if anyone knows, is if their motivation is simply to hold power in order to keep their ego fed, or is it for their own personal physical safety?
I was just trying to provoke you.
Everyone wants power, but it's contained to a degree by what else they want, which could be many other things.
Quote from: drogulus on August 16, 2020, 08:38:21 PM
That's why I seek out explanations lawyers provide, of law and facts. I find it bizarre to imagine that lawyers spend so much effort trying to convince people who are not qualified to understand them. Presumably their lack of credentials makes them impervious to the instructions of judges as well.
Maybe you're making the best of a bad argument, but it's really really bad.
Regarding intent, I think that might be less important than "knowingly". The intent to damage the election, or elect Trump, or whatever the reason might be, may not figure in a prosecution.
Whoever knowingly and willfully obstructs or retards the passage of the mail......
He can have any intent or none.
By Brahms's beard, that is silly. That "knowingly and willfully" means intent to obstruct is an essential element which the prosecution would be required to prove.
If you want to parse statutes, at least learn the meaning of the words they use.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 17, 2020, 06:18:03 AM
DeJoy's ethics violations are straightforward and don't require establishing intent. He's substantially invested in USPS competitors and contractors including XPO, a logistics firm that subcontracts mail processing and whose business picks up to the extent the USPS slows. He's also made substantial investments in Amazon since becoming Post Master General. These sorts of conflicts of interest used to raise eyebrows.
As for the Trump Administration's hopes to undermine mail-in voting: That's just a recent afterthought to decades-long efforts at undermining the USPS, the most lethal being the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006. This legislation, passed by voice vote in a lame duck session of Congress, required funding retirement benefits to the tune of $5 billion yearly for ten years, while restricting postage increases to the rate of inflation. This act turned a consistently profitable USPS into a huge money loser within a couple of years. The goal of crippling the USPS is to justify its eventual privatization. Privatization is a goal affirmed in the administration's plans for government restructuring published in June 2018. The Trump Administration's role in all this is the usual random destruction, along with opportunistic, garden variety corruption.
That's all true, but has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that the charge DeJoy is doing this for the purpose of suppressing voting or undermining the USPS has no actual evidence to back it up, and never will, despite all the suspicious circumstances you refer to.
Quote from: JBS on August 17, 2020, 11:26:59 AM
By Brahms's beard, that is silly. That "knowingly and willfully" means intent to obstruct is an essential element which the prosecution would be required to prove.
If you want to parse statutes, at least learn the meaning of the words they use.
It means intent to obstruct can be inferred from actions and not a deep probe into his state of mind. It's "knowingly and willfully instructs", not "knowingly and willfully
intends". The former might be easily proved, the latter may not. But only the former needs to be proved. Holder knows this, I'm sure. But I'll see who else in the legal firmament thinks so, because that's the kind of guy I am.
Postmaster general acknowledges 'unintended consequences' of restructuring (https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/512037-postmaster-general-acknowledges-unintended-consequences-of)
He didn't intend, see? He knew, he willfully instructed, but he didn't intend.
Quote from: drogulus on August 17, 2020, 11:41:51 AM
It means intent to obstruct can be inferred from actions and not a deep probe into his state of mind. It's "knowingly and willfully instructs", not "knowingly and willfully intends". The former might be easily proved, the latter may not. But only the former needs to be proved. Holder knows this, I'm sure. But I'll see who else in the legal firmament thinks so, because that's the kind of guy I am.
First learn what "knowingly and willfully" means in legal contexts. It will keep you from sounding like an idiot.
Next, take notice of the fact that almost everything DeJoy is doing is being justified as necessary cost-cutting. To prove DeJoy intends to undermine USPS you would therefore need to show that justification is a sham. There is no actual evidence that it is a sham.
PEW RESEARCH POLL:
Why Biden supporters support him?
56 % - He is not Trump
9 % - His issue/policy positions
Why Trump supporters support him?
19 % - He is not Biden
21 % - His issue/policy positions
This illustrates so well how Biden's policy positions do not inspire people. People voted for him because the corporate media kept repeating the myth of his "electability", but it's Bernie's policies which are those best resonating with people.
Quote from: JBS on August 17, 2020, 12:19:34 PM
First learn what "knowingly and willfully" means in legal contexts. It will keep you from sounding like an idiot.
I'm not worried about that. Barbara McQuade is a law professor and former prosecutor. She probably knows as much about the legal meaning of "knowingly and willfully" as you do.
I think the totality of DeJoy's actions will form a pattern that goes well beyond any cost-cutting justification. But besides that, the statutes don't make an exception for cost cutting.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Efnfk_NXgAYZbyW?format=jpg&name=medium)
Quote from: drogulus on August 17, 2020, 02:18:31 PM
I'm not worried about that. Barbara McQuade is a law professor and former prosecutor. She probably knows as much about the legal meaning of "knowingly and willfully" as you do.
I think the totality of DeJoy's actions will form a pattern that goes well beyond any cost-cutting justification. But besides that, the statutes don't make an exception for cost cutting.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Efnfk_NXgAYZbyW?format=jpg&name=medium)
She is obviously succeeding in impress people like you who want to be impressed. It's PR, nothing more.
Notice it all depends on that last "if there is evidence". There is in fact no actual evidence beyond a jumble of words from Trump, and that does not count as evidence in a court case.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 17, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
PEW RESEARCH POLL:
Why Biden supporters support him?
56 % - He is not Trump
9 % - His issue/policy positions
Why Trump supporters support him?
19 % - He is not Biden
21 % - His issue/policy positions
This illustrates so well how Biden's policy positions do not inspire people. People voted for him because the corporate media kept repeating the myth of his "electability", but it's Bernie's policies which are those best resonating with people.
This election is a referendum on Trump. People are not interested in policy. They are interested in getting Covid19 under control and getting their jobs back.
Bernie's policies resonate only with progressives. That you think otherwise is merely another demonstration of the unreliability of your sources.
Quote from: JBS on August 17, 2020, 02:43:45 PM
This election is a referendum on Trump. People are not interested in policy. They are interested in getting Covid19 under control and getting their jobs back.
Bernie's policies resonate only with progressives. That you think otherwise is merely another demonstration of the unreliability of your sources.
cf.: the myth of [Biden's] "electability"
Quote from: JBS on August 17, 2020, 02:43:45 PM
This election is a referendum on Trump. People are not interested in policy. They are interested in getting Covid19 under control and getting their jobs back.
Bernie's policies resonate only with progressives. That you think otherwise is merely another demonstration of the unreliability of your sources.
Getting Covid-19 under control takes the right kind of policies. I'm sure all those millions of people who lost their healtcare when they lost their job are interested of policies giving healthcare back.
You say at best 1/5 of the country identifies as progressives and I kind of agree, but as I have explained you 7078770234724 times already progressive ideas are much more popular, because people DO NOT KNOW LABELS!!
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2020, 10:29:45 AM
Where did you take your law degree?
I want to follow you around the forum writing "where did you get your music degree?" after everything you post.
Wouldn't you just admire my cleverness and wit?
Quote from: JBS on August 17, 2020, 02:37:54 PMShe is obviously succeeding in impress people like you who want to be impressed. It's PR, nothing more.
Trump made the USPS great again!
Quote from: JBS on August 17, 2020, 02:43:45 PMThey are interested in getting Covid19 under control and getting their jobs back.
The two true campaign issues. Everything else is fluff.
Under the apple tree with the no-nothings.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2020, 03:56:14 PM
Under the apple tree with the no-nothings.
Hah, and in 1915 it was: "Curvature of spacetime is socialism!" :P
Kyle Kulinski: AOC should have told DNC to take that 60 seconds and shove it in their asses! ;D
The Democratic Party want the popularity of progressives without their ideas.
I didn't go to Law School but it sounds like Kulinsky is doing the utmost to give Trump four more years.
Given the way every utterance by AOC is red meat for right wing media and fires up Trumps base its amazing she's even being given 60 seconds at a time like this.
meanwhile:
Trump calls out New Zealand's 'terrible' Covid surge, on day it records nine new cases
US president's discordant comments fail to reflect that 22 people have died from coronavirus in New Zealand, versus 170,000 in US (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/18/trump-calls-out-new-zealands-big-surge-on-day-it-records-nine-covid-cases)
"Donald Trump has called out New Zealand for its recent Covid-19 outbreak, saying the places the world hailed as a success story is now facing a "big surge" in cases.
"The places they were using to hold up now they're having a big surge ... they were holding up names of countries and now they're saying 'whoops!.
"Do you see what's happening in New Zealand? They beat it, they beat it, it was like front-page news because they wanted to show me something," the US president said at a campaign rally in Mankato, Minnesota.
"Big surge in New Zealand, you know it's terrible, we don't want that, but this is an invisible enemy that should never have been let to come to Europe and the rest of the world by China."
On Monday Auckland recorded nine new cases of the virus, and 13 on Tuesday, while the US's Monday figure was just under 42,000.
It is the first time Tump has mentioned New Zealand in a campaign speech. On Tuesday, prime minister Jacinda Ardern responded, saying there was "no comparison" between the situation in the US and her country.
New Zealand's government has described the outbreak as contained and manageable, and has chosen not to place the country or even Auckland in full, level 4 lockdown. The outbreak is currently limited to a single cluster of related cases, which as of Tuesday numbered 69.
Overall 22 people have died from Covid-19 in New Zealand, compared with more than 170,000 in the US, the highest death toll in the world. It accounts for nearly 22% of deaths globally.
In June, New Zealand declared it had eliminated the virus, and went 102 days without any infection in the community.
Last week four people tested positive for the virus, and dozens more in Auckland were been infected, prompting the prime minister to place the city of 1.5 million into a two-week, stage 3 lockdown.
It is still unclear how the virus got into the community, but health officials continue to test workers at the international borders, ports and a cool store factory that handles international freight."[...]
Quote from: greg on August 17, 2020, 10:45:41 AM
Nah, I'm speaking in general. Either one- rigged elections or abolishing term limits, what dictators around the world to maintain power longer than what their laws allow.
(for "try to abolish term limits," i just had in mind stuff that i have heard taken place in Africa many times)
What I would like to know, if anyone knows, is if their motivation is simply to hold power in order to keep their ego fed, or is it for their own personal physical safety?
The despot and it's people are just one thing. The despot depends on the people that follow him. The despot loses it's mind, so the people.
It's not a monolith though, but rather a 'set-up', a relic from the past that wears new clothes (nationalism and other discourses that broke with reason).
Now the question appears to be of a religious kind. Atheism is called a religion for instance. It is getting more and more the lens through which things are seen imo.
De Sousa Santos has written a book 'If God were a human rights activist.'
Or 'post-religious'
I came across this book recently:
Strange Rites: New Religions for a Godless World Hardcover – June 16, 2020
by Tara Isabella Burton
'A sparklingly strange odyssey through the kaleidoscope of America's new spirituality: the cults, practices, high priests and prophets of our supposedly post-religion age.
Fifty-five years have passed since the cover of Time magazine proclaimed the death of God and while participation in mainstream religion has indeed plummeted, Americans have never been more spiritually busy.
While rejecting traditional worship in unprecedented numbers, today's Americans are embracing a kaleidoscopic panoply of spiritual traditions, rituals, and subcultures -- from astrology and witchcraft to SoulCycle and the alt-right. As the Internet makes it ever-easier to find new "tribes," and consumer capitalism forever threatens to turn spirituality into a lifestyle brand, remarkably modern American religious culture is undergoing a revival comparable with the Great Awakenings of centuries past. Faith is experiencing not a decline but a Renaissance. Disillusioned with organized religion and political establishments alike, more and more Americans are seeking out spiritual paths driven by intuition, not institutions.
In Strange Rites, religious scholar and commentator Tara Isabella Burton visits with the techno-utopians of Silicon Valley; Satanists and polyamorous communities, witches from Bushwick, wellness junkies and social justice activists and devotees of Jordan Peterson, proving Americans are not abandoning religion but remixing it. In search of the deep and the real, they are finding meaning, purpose, ritual, and communities in ever-newer, ever-stranger ways.'
Yeah, but did these authors go to Law School, or any other school Diner Cop requires?
...
Sloterdijk though warns for the danger of spiritual variation becoming a survival strategy (in his work 'Chances in the dangerzone').
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2020, 02:35:55 AM
Yeah, but did these authors go to Law School, or any other school Diner Cop requires?
:laugh:
It appears that ESL posters have difficulty understanding when legal knowledge is helpful and when it is not. That's to be expected on the internet.
Some brilliant analyst thinks this is a "surgical strike" against the "libs"
Quote from: Herman on August 17, 2020, 09:30:48 PM
I didn't go to Law School but it sounds like Kulinsky is doing the utmost to give Trump four more years.
Kulinski tells it how it is. Americans have to choose between 2 bad candidates. The other one being much worse doesn't mean the other one it good or even decent. Americans will vote for the lesser of two evils as long as they think corporatism works. Kulinski is working hard to change that. To replace those corporates with progressives like AOC.
Ask yourself, why do you want to vote for Biden? Do you really think he will do SOMETHING for you or do you vote for him because he is not Trump. How will Biden improve you life? Tell me. I can't think of anything. At best your healthcare will become just a tiny bit less shitty. So are you voting against Trump or for Biden? Wouldn't it be nice to vote FOR someone?
If someone is trying to give Trump four more years it's corporate Dems by being so utterly shitty and offering nothing but middle finger to their base. The oligarchs could have allowed Bernie to win the nomination. The excitement among the people would be so much stronger. Imagine someone talking about medicare for all in the middle of pandemic when millions of people have lost their healthcare!! Bernie would PULVERIZE Trump, but no! Oligarchs didn't allow it and Bernie was stopped and now we have a nailbiter in our hand: Will the "nothing will fundamentally change and I will Veto medicare for all if it comes to my desk" candidate suffering from cognitive decline beat the wannabe dictator?
I do wonder if the election year love for the USPS will persist after Dems no longer propagandize the existential threats to the much hallowed institution quite so feverishly and the press no longer sensationalizes the same. It's almost like the previously sleepy institution has morphed into a partisan election year issue.
Anyway, perhaps the legal experts on this very forum could review the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 and offer substantive alterations to the text of the law since the USPS is now so much more critical than it was only months ago.
If one actually did that all you would do is snark at it.
And, you know, why talk at a brick wall.
Troll's gonna troll.
From the failing New York Times: On Centennial of 19th Amendment, Trump Pardons Susan B. Anthony (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/trump-susan-b-anthony-pardon.html)
:laugh:
Quote from: drogulus on August 18, 2020, 07:04:23 AM
We need the eggs.
Tangentially (or not) I find Egg Beaters a highly satisfactory substitution.
Why is there so much unrest in TrumPutinLand?
As Belarus protests grow, Putin shows no sign of propping up embattled ruler (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/belarus-protests-grow-putin-shows-no-sign-propping-embattled-ruler-n1237079)
An idea to import ? It's pretty spectacular ... albeit apparently virtual effects.
https://twitter.com/JanekLasocki/status/1295730176203128837
"The changes have inconvenienced millions of Americans, put at risk the health of veterans and others who receive prescription drugs by mail, and convinced Americans that Trump is trying to steal the election by hobbling voting-by-mail, which tens of millions of voters will rely upon. In another instance of saying the quiet part out loud, Trump last week declared, "They don't have the money to do the universal mail-in voting. So, therefore, they can't do it, I guess. Are they going to do it even if they don't have the money?" Now, he insists it is all the Democrats' fault — not his, and not the USPS board of governors, all appointed by Trump. You will recall that Democrats included $25 billion for the Postal Service in the Heroes Act, which Trump initially said would be a dealbreaker."
The USPS doesn't need the money in the relief package to deliver the ballots.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 18, 2020, 04:37:07 AM
Kulinski tells it how it is. Americans have to choose between 2 bad candidates. The other one being much worse doesn't mean the other one it good or even decent. Americans will vote for the lesser of two evils as long as they think corporatism works. Kulinski is working hard to change that. To replace those corporates with progressives like AOC.
Ask yourself, why do you want to vote for Biden? Do you really think he will do SOMETHING for you or do you vote for him because he is not Trump. How will Biden improve you life? Tell me. I can't think of anything. At best your healthcare will become just a tiny bit less shitty. So are you voting against Trump or for Biden? Wouldn't it be nice to vote FOR someone?
If someone is trying to give Trump four more years it's corporate Dems by being so utterly shitty and offering nothing but middle finger to their base. The oligarchs could have allowed Bernie to win the nomination. The excitement among the people would be so much stronger. Imagine someone talking about medicare for all in the middle of pandemic when millions of people have lost their healthcare!! Bernie would PULVERIZE Trump, but no! Oligarchs didn't allow it and Bernie was stopped and now we have a nailbiter in our hand: Will the "nothing will fundamentally change and I will Veto medicare for all if it comes to my desk" candidate suffering from cognitive decline beat the wannabe dictator?
The government has managed to completely screw up the postal service, and you want them to take over the entire health care system....
Efforts to "fail" the USPS by anti-government zealots failed before, and will fail this time, too. The service will continue to do its job in spite of any obstructions put in its way.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 18, 2020, 04:37:07 AM
Kulinski tells it how it is. {...}
Ask yourself, why do you want to vote for Biden? Do you really think he will do SOMETHING for you or do you vote for him because he is not Trump. How will Biden improve you life? Tell me. I can't think of anything. At best your healthcare will become just a tiny bit less shitty. So are you voting against Trump or for Biden? Wouldn't it be nice to vote FOR someone?
Could you please go away and shut up for a couple of months?
The entire world is biting its nails hoping Biden will be the next president, to restore a sane world order and maybe even give the planet a chance to survive, while you are trying to persuade people not to vote for Biden, thus helping Trump, and you're not even a *#@! voter.
I know you see One of the Incredibly Good Guys when you look in the mirror, but you're really on the side of the Bad Guys now. Please go and mind your own business.
Poju, give it a rest, especially the "cognitive decline" rubbish.. Kulinsky is a self-important ass.
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2020, 11:00:13 AMThe entire world is biting its nails hoping Biden will be the next president, to restore a sane world order and maybe even give the planet a chance to survive
You have stated on multiple occasions that the US is a Third World country. How can a Third World country do such miraculous things?
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2020, 11:00:13 AM
Could you please go away and shut up for a couple of months?
The entire world is biting its nails hoping Biden will be the next president, to restore a sane world order and maybe even give the planet a chance to survive, while you are trying to persuade people not to vote for Biden, thus helping Trump, and you're not even a *#@! voter.
I know you see One of the Incredibly Good Guys when you look in the mirror, but you're really on the side of the Bad Guys now. Please go and mind your own business.
The difference here is that he is being genuine while you have a group-think sort of attitude.
If someone votes for Biden because he isn't Trump, then it's better that they are aware of that, rather than lie to themselves and pretend like he is some savior of the world.
When we settle for, or even worse,
celebrate mediocrity continuously, then the bar gets lowered without criticizing anything then the bar gets lowered until, well, we now got an entertainer as president. And it'll only get worse.
(Also falling into the pattern of someone on the left wanting to silence someone else/"cancel" on the left- would say it's funny, but by now it's old)
I have told you before that I am not "on the left". Neither is Biden.
But I guess for you this is too difficult.
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2020, 12:40:30 PM
I have told you before that I am not "on the left". Neither is Biden.
But I guess for you this is too difficult.
Ok, then where are you on the political compass?
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 12:49:35 PM
Ok, then where are you on the political compass?
(https://static3.depositphotos.com/1010284/266/i/450/depositphotos_2662998-stock-photo-toe-tag.jpg)
A tag may be useful in a few circumstances, but more often than not it's misleading.
Saves Greg the trouble of thinking, though . . . .
) Trump's effort to upend the mail is not only malicious but mindlessly counterproductive. The president has riled up veterans, senior citizens and rural voters — groups that generally support Republicans. He has also given Democrats a wake-up call to organize early voting where available, install drop boxes for ballots and urge their voters to mail in absentee ballots quickly (or walk them in for delivery). And, finally, he has played right into former vice president Joe Biden's hands. Trump is indeed the picture of willful destructiveness, self-absorption and incompetence. With moves like this, Biden hardly needs to say anything to the country Thursday night but "I won't screw up your mail." (
Quote from: André on August 18, 2020, 01:04:31 PM
A tag may be useful in a few circumstances, but more often than not it's misleading.
Yeah, I don't totally agree with my result either, but I'm still curious.
https://www.youtube.com/v/OgQZExTciQM
Postmaster General DeJoy suspends changes to postal service to avoid any impact on election mail (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/postmaster-general-dejoy-suspends-changes-usps-until-after-election-n1237122)
Whew! The world dodged a bullet.
Quote from: greg on August 17, 2020, 07:49:22 AM
If it isn't meant to be, then cool.
Just the way it was worded felt like it was.
Nah, probably won't vote. Just not into it, I guess.
Greg,
Pardon, but it's your civic duty as an American to do your research and to vote (this is what I grew up with): it's an obligation and a duty....and a privilege (look at other countries). We're fortunate here. If you don't vote, then don't complain.
PD
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2020, 01:06:27 PM
) Trump's effort to upend the mail is not only malicious but mindlessly counterproductive. The president has riled up veterans, senior citizens and rural voters — groups that generally support Republicans. He has also given Democrats a wake-up call to organize early voting where available, install drop boxes for ballots and urge their voters to mail in absentee ballots quickly (or walk them in for delivery). And, finally, he has played right into former vice president Joe Biden's hands. Trump is indeed the picture of willful destructiveness, self-absorption and incompetence. With moves like this, Biden hardly needs to say anything to the country Thursday night but "I won't screw up your mail." (
I think the idea is to create as much chaos as possible and then claim victory. I think he's used this tactic his whole life. It remains to be seen whether Trump will actually try to stay or just use this as a way to save face with his followers when he leaves.
Quote from: drogulus on August 18, 2020, 10:27:47 AM
Efforts to "fail" the USPS by anti-government zealots failed before, and will fail this time, too. The service will continue to do its job in spite of any obstructions put in its way.
But the antigovernment zealots won't stop trying.
Just stop and think for a moment. If we nationalize health care as MfA or another similar program, then the next time the GOP gets into power health care will be subject to the whims of a group which is not merely anti-government but anti-science and anti-medicine.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 18, 2020, 01:52:37 PM
Greg,
Pardon, but it's your civic duty as an American to do your research and to vote (this is what I grew up with): it's an obligation and a duty....and a privilege (look at other countries). We're fortunate here. If you don't vote, then don't complain.
PD
I'm not obligated to do anything. My only duty, apart from work in order to survive, is to work on recording my album.
At best I'd vote for someone I don't even like, and one person voting isn't going to change anything. That's a massive waste of time. Not gonna take 50 hours of research to make a decision, and that's the minimum it would take.
btw I'm not "American," I'm just someone who grew up and lives in America. Nationalities/group identity are just bullshit illusions. (speaking very figuratively here, of course I'm American, just making sure people get my point)
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 02:10:09 PMI'm not obligated to do anything.
Correct, at least at it pertains to voting.
Just one more thought in that post about the right to complain.
I thought not having the "right to complain" is usually directed at someone who votes for a candidate, that candidate becomes president, and then they complain? (which I don't necessarily agree with completely, but just following that logic...).
If you don't like either candidate, and didn't vote for them, then you still you have the right to complain.
I could vote for Biden and complain about Trump if he is elected, right? But then I could complain about Biden if I voted for Trump and Biden is elected, right?
So following that, I can complain for whoever I didn't vote for, and by not voting for either, I can complain about either.
(not that I care about anyone's opinions on what I'm "allowed" to complain about, just analyzing that idea which just doesn't seems to add up)
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 02:15:34 PM
Correct, at least at it pertains to voting.
Oh, the things I've heard about with mandatory voting in Australia... LOL
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 02:27:29 PMJust one more thought in that post about the right to complain.
You can not vote and still complain. Look at all the non-American posters here who complain without end. Complaining is what the internet is for. Well, that, commerce, and porn.
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 02:27:29 PM
Oh, the things I've heard about with mandatory voting in Australia... LOL
An irrelevance.
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 02:10:09 PM
I'm not obligated to do anything. My only duty, apart from work in order to survive, is to work on recording my album.
At best I'd vote for someone I don't even like, and one person voting isn't going to change anything. That's a massive waste of time. Not gonna take 50 hours of research to make a decision, and that's the minimum it would take.
btw I'm not "American," I'm just someone who grew up and lives in America. Nationalities/group identity are just bullshit illusions. (speaking very figuratively here, of course I'm American, just making sure people get my point)
So, how you get involved and voting does matter.
PD
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 02:10:09 PM
and one person voting isn't going to change anything.
In most elections the number of people who stay home and say their one vote doesn't count could have dramatically changed the outcome.
But I'm not going to encourage you if you take pride in being uninformed.
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 02:27:29 PM
I thought not having the "right to complain" is usually directed at someone who votes for a candidate, that candidate becomes president, and then they complain? (which I don't necessarily agree with completely, but just following that logic...).
No. That's not what people mean when they say that. In fact I don't think I've ever heard it used in that way. Nor come to think of it have I ever heard anyone say anywhere that you can't complain about the performance of the candidate you voted for. It might happen in Trumpist circles.
Quote from: JBS on August 18, 2020, 02:02:39 PM
But the antigovernment zealots won't stop trying.
Just stop and think for a moment. If we nationalize health care as MfA or another similar program, then the next time the GOP gets into power health care will be subject to the whims of a group which is not merely anti-government but anti-science and anti-medicine.
We don't have to let them have a veto over what we want. It's a fight that's worth winning. They will fail to repeal most of the programs they try to kill. How long have they been trying to kill Medicare and Social Security? Why can't we be on our own side in these fights?
Quote from: drogulus on August 18, 2020, 04:00:26 PM
We don't have to let them have a veto over what we want. It's a fight that's worth winning. They will fail to repeal most of the programs they try to kill. How long have they been trying to kill Medicare and Social Security? Why can't we be on our own side in these fights?
It's not a matter of repealing. It's a matter of screwing up the system. And not necessarily intentionally.
Just imagine the MyPillow guy having input on the prescription drugs the government will pay for..
Quote from: JBS on August 18, 2020, 04:06:04 PM
It's not a matter of repealing. It's a matter of screwing up the system. And not necessarily intentionally.
Just imagine the MyPillow guy having input on the prescription drugs the government will pay for..
Whether you see this as pure idiocy or a deliberate campaign to induce system failure (some of both, I reckon), it usually generates enough resistance.
Anti-government zealots are strongly motivated to use induced failure to vindicate their cause. I don't see why we should surrender to that. We should whip them good, again and again. Another Red state voted for Medicaid expansion a week or so ago. Every day OCare gets a little less socialist/more popular.
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2020, 11:00:13 AM
You are trying to persuade people not to vote for Biden, thus helping Trump, and you're not even a *#@! voter.
No, I am not trying to do that!! It's not my business who people vote for. It's not your business either. You vote for who you want and that's it. If you vote for Trump that's your business. If you vote for Biden that's your business. If you vote for someone else that's your business. If you stay home that's your business.
Just be HONEST!! Biden being better than Trump doesn't mean he is good. It means he is LESS SHITTY. If you vote for Biden because he is the lesser evil then good, you have a valid reason for your choice, but don't pretend that Biden will be good for the US. He will be less shitty for the US than Trump. That't the sad reality.
Quote from: greg on August 18, 2020, 11:53:38 AM
The difference here is that he is being genuine while you have a group-think sort of attitude.
If someone votes for Biden because he isn't Trump, then it's better that they are aware of that, rather than lie to themselves and pretend like he is some savior of the world.
When we settle for, or even worse, celebrate mediocrity continuously, then the bar gets lowered without criticizing anything then the bar gets lowered until, well, we now got an entertainer as president. And it'll only get worse.
Thanks for this supporting post! You understand completely my point. ;)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2020, 11:34:17 AM
Poju, give it a rest, especially the "cognitive decline" rubbish.. Kulinsky is a self-important ass.
Come on Karl. You are not blind. Cognitive decline is common in his age. Compare his speaking just a few years ago to today. You need to be in denial to not see the decline.
Kyle Kulinski might seem self-important, but that dude knows what he is talking about. He gives credit to Trump when Trump accidentally does something good (e.g. pardons non-violent prisoners) and criticizes AOC and Bernie when they do something stupid (e.g. get involved too much into cultural war). I admire that kind of intellectual honesty.
There are people who deny that Joe Biden has experienced cognitive decline?
Huh.
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 05:32:20 PM
There are people who deny that Joe Biden has experienced cognitive decline?
Huh.
Looks that way, surprisingly... :P
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 05:32:20 PM
There are people who deny that Joe Biden has experienced cognitive decline?
Huh.
I've seen no evidence of it. Biden is no more, and no less, gaffe-tastic than he was as VP or Senator.
The "cognitive decline is natural at his age" has not, to the best of my knowledge, been applied to Sanders, who is 14 months older, or to Pelosi, who is 80 years old.
The rot runs deep in the GOP: Rep. Spano, facing probe of possible 2018 campaign finance violations, ousted in Florida GOP primary
Quote from: JBS on August 18, 2020, 05:47:57 PM
I've seen no evidence of it. Biden is no more, and no less, gaffe-tastic than he was as VP or Senator.
The "cognitive decline is natural at his age" has not, to the best of my knowledge, been applied to Sanders, who is 14 months older, or to Pelosi, who is 80 years old.
I've witnessed it with Pelosi and Biden, though not so much with Bernie. Bernie is just a bitter, cranky old man, which is fine. Pelosi has called Trump President Bush on multiple filmed occasions, for instance, and meandered in several press conferences - and I don't even watch full ones. Biden rambles more incoherently now than in his 2008 run, to say nothing of his 1988 run, and he has even forgotten Obama's name on multiple filmed occasions. But people will believe whatever they want to believe, even with video evidence.
Quote from: JBS on August 18, 2020, 05:47:57 PM
I've seen no evidence of it. Biden is no more, and no less, gaffe-tastic than he was as VP or Senator.
The "cognitive decline is natural at his age" has not, to the best of my knowledge, been applied to Sanders, who is 14 months older, or to Pelosi, who is 80 years old.
People are different. Someone suffers bad decline at 70, somebody not at all at 90. Intellectual curiosity and "practicing" your brain can help keep it in shape longer.
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 05:55:09 PM
I've witnessed it with Pelosi and Biden, though not so much with Bernie. Bernie is just a bitter, cranky old man, which is fine. Pelosi has called Trump President Bush on multiple filmed occasions, for instance, and meandered in several press conferences - and I don't even watch full ones. Biden rambles more incoherently now than in his 2008 run, to say nothing of his 1988 run, and he has even forgotten Obama's name on multiple filmed occasions. But people will believe whatever they want to believe, even with video evidence.
I agree with this quite a lot, althou the image of Bernie as a bitter, cranky old man is mostly a product of corporate media.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 18, 2020, 06:04:14 PM
I agree with this quite a lot, althou the image of Bernie as a bitter, cranky old man is mostly a product of corporate media.
I base it on what I see and hear. The footage of him today being terse with his wife in public is a perfect example. He is what he is. That's fine. That's also one of the reasons he couldn't be elected.
Quote from: JBS on August 18, 2020, 05:47:57 PM
I've seen no evidence of it. Biden is no more, and no less, gaffe-tastic than he was as VP or Senator.
The "cognitive decline is natural at his age" has not, to the best of my knowledge, been applied to Sanders, who is 14 months older, or to Pelosi, who is 80 years old.
It is my understanding that any body functions, ie. Brain, reproduction, etc., of the people decline after around 20 years old. All the body functions are largely for reproduction purposes. Some people are better than others for finding and enhancing compensational skills and tactics. But in biological terms, physical abilities decline after 20 y/o approximately.
Quote from: JBS on August 18, 2020, 05:47:57 PM
I've seen no evidence of it. Biden is no more, and no less, gaffe-tastic than he was as VP or Senator.
The "cognitive decline is natural at his age" has not, to the best of my knowledge, been applied to Sanders, who is 14 months older, or to Pelosi, who is 80 years old.
I hope we see more video of the President triumphantly drinking water.
No serious lawyer would argue what Trump's Justice Department is arguing
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 18, 2020, 06:08:15 PM
It is my understanding that any body functions, ie. Brain, reproduction, etc., of the people decline after around 20 years old. All the body functions are largely for reproduction purposes. Some people are better than others for finding and enhancing compensational skills and tactics. But in biological terms, physical abilities decline after 20 y/o approximately.
Different cognitive skills peak at different ages, some as late as ~40, at least per researchers. Anyone who attempts to argue that people in their 70s are not experiencing cognitive decline actively deny science.
Joe now officially nominated.
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Different cognitive skills peak at different ages, some as late as ~40, at least per researchers. Anyone who attempts to argue that people in their 70s are not experiencing cognitive decline actively deny science.
Are these cognitive skills stated by you exclusively neurological abilities independent of social skills?
I will keep studying on the matter.
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Different cognitive skills peak at different ages, some as late as ~40, at least per researchers. Anyone who attempts to argue that people in their 70s are not experiencing cognitive decline actively deny science.
In a bored voice:
"Where did you get your neurology degree?"
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 18, 2020, 06:21:38 PMAre these cognitive skills stated by you exclusively neurological abilities independent of social skills?
I do not believe so. I definitely suggest relying on the work of professional researchers here. GMG is a very bad place to acquire factual knowledge.
"love letters to dictators"
Our troops cannot get out of harm's way by hiding in the White House bunker--Jn Kerry
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 05:55:09 PM
I've witnessed it with Pelosi and Biden, though not so much with Bernie. Bernie is just a bitter, cranky old man, which is fine. Pelosi has called Trump President Bush on multiple filmed occasions, for instance, and meandered in several press conferences - and I don't even watch full ones. Biden rambles more incoherently now than in his 2008 run, to say nothing of his 1988 run, and he has even forgotten Obama's name on multiple filmed occasions. But people will believe whatever they want to believe, even with video evidence.
Every time I've seen Biden on TV I have seen nothing like that.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 18, 2020, 06:08:15 PM
It is my understanding that any body functions, ie. Brain, reproduction, etc., of the people decline after around 20 years old. All the body functions are largely for reproduction purposes. Some people are better than others for finding and enhancing compensational skills and tactics. But in biological terms, physical abilities decline after 20 y/o approximately.
As a 61 year old, I certainly am not going to deny that!
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 06:05:55 PM
I base it on what I see and hear. The footage of him today being terse with his wife in public is a perfect example. He is what he is. That's fine. That's also one of the reasons he couldn't be elected.
I saw a tweet today which was perfectly apropos: anyone who has had a Jewish mother would instantly understand him.
Even the hand gestures. Isaac probably did it with Sarah.
Mom! Enough! It's fine! Will you stop embarrassing me!
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Different cognitive skills peak at different ages, some as late as ~40, at least per researchers. Anyone who attempts to argue that people in their 70s are not experiencing cognitive decline actively deny science.
long-form Medical School degree please.
Quote from: Herman on August 18, 2020, 07:09:16 PM
long-form Medical School degree please.
(* chortle *)
Anyone who thinks that cognitive skills are paramount for the office of PotUS has not been paying attention to actual politics for a few decades, so the point is rather moot.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 19, 2020, 12:40:14 AM
Anyone who thinks that cognitive skills are paramount for the office of PotUS has not been paying attention to actual politics for a few decades, so the point is rather moot.
Yes, but can Biden beat Trump and even get in the White House? How will he perform in the debates against Trump? That's what people are worried about. Everyone knows Biden will govern in centrist corporatist fashion, no matter how good or bad his cognitive skills are at that point and if things go very bad, Kamala Harris can replace him.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 19, 2020, 12:40:14 AM
Anyone who thinks that cognitive skills are paramount for the office of PotUS has not been paying attention to actual politics for a few decades, so the point is rather moot.
People see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. People on GMG want to believe Biden is not experiencing cognitive decline. And so it shall be. It is simply another instance of GMG factlessness and hypocrisy.
But back to fun facts: AOC nominated Bernie last night in a hollow gesture.
While it obviously will not change the outcome of the 2020 election, it highlights the split in the party and shows a path for Republicans to rely on tried and true divide and conquer tactics.
Quote from: Todd on August 18, 2020, 06:25:39 PM
GMG is a very bad place to acquire factual knowledge.
I'd say GMG has tons of knowledge about
classical music, but I have to say I am surprised by how weakly informed many are
politically over here. At least I have learned that being into classical music doesn't automatically mean one is intellectually curious to be into politics also. We choose our areas. Everyone knows a lot about
something, but Dunning-Kruger effect muddies the waters big time...
We all should pay attention to some things such as are we thinking backwards from our conclusions? Are our conclusions really derived from facts? Are we willing to change our conclusions in the light of new information? Are we interpreting the facts correctly? Are we questioning claims enough or are we just assuming something without evidence?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 19, 2020, 04:43:06 AMAre our conclusions really derived from facts?
Fuck no.
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 04:02:29 AM
People see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. People on GMG want to believe Biden is not experiencing cognitive decline. And so it shall be. It is simply another instance of GMG factlessness and hypocrisy.
One can still admit to the weaknesses of Biden while acknowledging he is better than Trump. In fact admitting those weaknesses is crucial in coming up with a strategy against Trump. Trump already attacks Biden's cognitive challenges and it will only get worse... ...is Biden ready to answer those attacks? Better be.
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 04:02:29 AMBut back to fun facts: AOC nominated Bernie last night in a hollow gesture.
While it obviously will not change the outcome of the 2020 election, it highlights the split in the party and shows a path for Republicans to rely on tried and true divide and conquer tactics.
Since The Republicans is the far-right party, The Dems functions as a from left to right party and it shows. The corporates and the progressives have very little to agree about. AOC's support to Bernie is to be expected.
What you propagandize as "The Corporates" may in fact simply be the sensible center
Quote from: 71 dB on August 19, 2020, 04:52:02 AMSince The Republicans is the far-right party,
It is a broader coalition than that. Again, one
should use facts.
https://www.youtube.com/v/DP3mgV9rnqw
If you want a President who defines the job as spending hours a day watching TV and zapping people on social media he's your man.
https://www.youtube.com/v/rOxF5niBEjw
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 04:02:29 AM
People on GMG want to believe Biden is not experiencing cognitive decline.
Well, count me out. I assume decline as you get older, which takes the form of intermittent memory lapses. It doesn't have much effect on the ability to perform the functions demanded of people in leadership roles in government, business or academia. Severe cases are different, naturally. I recently read about a judge who was forced to retire in her mid 50s because of severe decline.
The "cognitive decline" discussion is ridiculous, because here are these two or three rightwing dead-enders plus one deluded Finn focusing on Biden supposedly experiencing a decline, while omitting that Trump is a walking and talking example of cognitive decline. He has yet to speak his first full sentence, most of the time he's ad-libbing he's talking gibberish, he can't hold a glass of water and basically all he's got left is some form of animal cunning.
What the above folks are doing is just faithfully and disingenuously reproducing the GOP talking points
Quote from: Herman on August 19, 2020, 05:51:53 AMwhile omitting that Trump is a walking and talking example of cognitive decline.
True. But also whataboutery.
People on GMG want to believe Biden is not experiencing cognitive decline. And so it shall be.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2020, 04:56:58 AM
What you propagandize as "The Corporates" may in fact simply be the sensible center
"Corporates" and "Center" are just labels. What matters is how they vote. What is their political ideology?
If the "Center" label is used to describe how their political ideology reflects the center of American
population then it doesn't work well, because especially on economic issues "centrists" politicians have very different views than average Americans.
Those you call "sensible center" are bribed by the rich and corporations. All you have to do to see this is to go to a site such as OpenSecrets (http://www.opensecrets.org/) to see where they receive majority of the donations from. Taking money from healthcare insurance companies for example means you are
supposed to be against medicare for all and if you are not, next time your seat is to be re-instated good luck getting donations anymore. Insurance companies will abandon you and find other for profit healthcare friendly candidates to primary you. I wonder which part of this corruption you find "
sensible."
In my opinion "Corporates" is an accurate label for those who take donations from corporations and serve them almost exclusively in return. What I do here is not propagandizing. I'm telling it how it is, calling out the corruption in US political system. People on the left has to do it, because the corporate media doesn't reveal something their are part of.
Quote from: Herman on August 19, 2020, 05:51:53 AM
The "cognitive decline" discussion is ridiculous, because here are these two or three rightwing dead-enders plus one deluded Finn focusing on Biden supposedly experiencing a decline, while omitting that Trump is a walking and talking example of cognitive decline. He has yet to speak his first full sentence, most of the time he's ad-libbing he's talking gibberish, he can't hold a glass of water and basically all he's got left is some form of animal cunning.
What the above folks are doing is just faithfully and disingenuously reproducing the GOP talking points
Yes, Trump is ALSO in cognitive decline, but in his case it doesn't matter much, because he is a cult leader whose moronic supporters just don't care. Trump is applaused when he drinks water with only one hand! ???
Quote from: JBS on August 18, 2020, 06:49:18 PM
Every time I've seen Biden on TV I have seen nothing like that.
I've worried about Biden but I find it hard to tell if his stumbles are due to (or compensation for) his stuttering problem or if some other faculty is involved. With Pelosi and others of her age I suspect simple physical stamina could be an issue — being less able to resist the effects of fatigue.
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 04:57:03 AM
It is a broader coalition than that. Again, one should use facts.
Yes, broad it is. There's many shades of "far-right." Zero Republicans voted for ObamaCare which is basically a right-wing thinktank idea. That tells us they are all "far-right."
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 19, 2020, 06:57:39 AM
I've worried about Biden but I find it hard to tell if his stumbles are due to (or compensation for) his stuttering problem or if some other faculty is involved. With Pelosi and others of her age I suspect simple physical stamina could be an issue — being less able to resist the effects of fatigue.
Remember when Hillary was dying of horrible corruption related diseases? Remember how worried we all were? Those were the days!
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 04:57:03 AM
It is a broader coalition than that. Again, one should use facts.
It is. There are the rising stars of QAnon, for example. Truly, it's a big tent.
Quote from: Herman on August 19, 2020, 05:51:53 AM
The "cognitive decline" discussion is ridiculous, because here are these two or three rightwing dead-enders plus one deluded Finn focusing on Biden supposedly experiencing a decline, while omitting that Trump is a walking and talking example of cognitive decline. He has yet to speak his first full sentence, most of the time he's ad-libbing he's talking gibberish, he can't hold a glass of water and basically all he's got left is some form of animal cunning.
What the above folks are doing is just faithfully and disingenuously reproducing the GOP talking points
bad faith participants.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 18, 2020, 06:08:15 PM
It is my understanding that any body functions, ie. Brain, reproduction, etc., of the people decline after around 20 years old. All the body functions are largely for reproduction purposes. Some people are better than others for finding and enhancing compensational skills and tactics. But in biological terms, physical abilities decline after 20 y/o approximately.
I am the one who maintained about the unavoidable, if not adversarial, decline of neurological capability.
But in comparison to the people in politics and business, senior musicians "appear" to maintain sharp brains.
Paul Mccartney, Mick Jagger, several conductors and performers talk like they are in the 20s.
I wonder why. Maybe It is partially because they don't need to talk about details, analysis, logics. And they are trained to act and talk young.
Hollywooders and Dems extract adrenochrome from the pineal glands of tortured children. They do it to get high and impose socialism. This hasn't got into the Repub platform yet, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2020, 07:56:27 AM
Paul Mccartney, Mick Jagger, several conductors and performers talk like they are in the 20s.
I wonder why. Maybe It is partially because they don't need to talk about details, analysis, logics. And they are trained to act and talk young.
They are giving celebrity interviews on their own terms. Reporters don't try to catch them at mistakes or "gaffes".
They do these interviews on rare occasions. Politicians in campaign mode have to talk every day.
The Post Office Scandal is Either Stupid or Evil, Your Choice
Either way, Trump brought the drama upon himself. (https://thebulwark.com/the-post-office-scandal-is-either-stupid-or-evil-your-choice/)
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 18, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
In most elections the number of people who stay home and say their one vote doesn't count could have dramatically changed the outcome.
I knew someone would say this lol.
It's not wrong, technically, but we're talking about different things- I'm not saying for everyone to act, or not act, in the same way that I act.
My one vote won't change anything- true.
A collective people's single votes put together will likely change something- also true.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2020, 08:55:25 AM
The Post Office Scandal is Either Stupid or Evil, Your Choice
Either way, Trump brought the drama upon himself. (https://thebulwark.com/the-post-office-scandal-is-either-stupid-or-evil-your-choice/)
Are "stupid" and "evil" mutually exclusive categories like "socialist" and "popular"?
The Bulwark is wonderful.
Motion Smoothing Is an Abomination (https://thebulwark.com/motion-smoothing-is-an-abomination/)
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
The GOP is QAnon ... ask an idiot president a question....
""QAnon believes you are secretly saving the world from this cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Are you behind that?" a reporter pressed.
"Is that supposed to be a bad thing?" Trump responded. "We are actually. We are saving the world."
Quote from: 71 dB on August 19, 2020, 07:11:13 AMThat tells us they are all "far-right."
No it does not.
Quote from: greg on August 19, 2020, 09:00:52 AMIt's not wrong, technically
For the presidential election it is wrong. Non-Americans keep forgetting about the Electoral College.
Coronavirus: Donald Trump calls out NZ again, says US is doing 'an incredible job' against Covid-19 (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300087090/coronavirus-donald-trump-calls-out-nz-again-says-us-is-doing-an-incredible-job-against-covid19)
"US President Donald Trump has again circled in on New Zealand's "big outbreak" of Covid-19 cases, while claiming the USA has done an "incredible job" in the battle against coronavirus.
Speaking at a White House press conference on Thursday (NZT), Trump touched on the re-emergence of the virus in New Zealand.
"New Zealand, by the way, had a big outbreak, and other countries that were held up to try and make us look not as good as we should look, and we've done an incredible job," Trump said.
"They're having a lot of outbreaks, but they'll be able to put them out, and we'll be able to put them out."
New Zealand reported six new coronavirus cases on Wednesday, while the US had just under 40,000"[...]
Don't seem to be able to copy in the stark "cases per 100,000 population" graph on that page, unfortunately.
Trump's "genius" is a hoax.
Trump's "business expertise" is a hoax.
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 04:26:53 PM
For the presidential election it is wrong. Non-Americans keep forgetting about the Electoral College.
If a few conservative and liberal states make a pact to give all their electoral college votes to a national popular vote winner, it would nullify the EC system and would bring a de facto direct popular election. Politically, it would be difficult, if not impossible, today.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2020, 05:40:02 PM
If a few conservative and liberal states make a pact to give all their electoral college votes to a national popular vote winner, it would nullify the EC system and would bring a de facto direct popular election. Politically, it would be difficult, if not impossible, today.
It would also be potentially unconstitutional and would certainly invite a challenge in federal court. The NPVIC has garnered some interest among Americans who hate the Constitution and despise the notion of amending it, but so far it has not lived up to its potential. Or maybe it has.
I spent twenty-nine years as a pension auditor. That does not make me an authority on the migration patterns of penguins.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 19, 2020, 05:52:25 PM
I spent twenty-nine years as a pension auditor. That does not make me an authority on the migration patterns of penguins.
You are wrong, it does.
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 05:51:43 PM
It would also be potentially unconstitutional and would certainly invite a challenge in federal court. The NPVIC has garnered some interest among Americans who hate the Constitution and despise the notion of amending it, but so far it has not lived up to its potential. Or maybe it has.
First sentence: we will/may see.
Second sentence: very typical fallacy (ad hominem attack).
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2020, 05:58:56 PM
Second sentence: very typical fallacy (ad hominem attack).
The Electoral College and Amendment process are both defined in the Constitution. I should like to see an explanation as to how circumventing the latter to change the former would be advocated by people who respected the Constitution.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2020, 05:58:56 PM
First sentence: we will/may see.
Second sentence: very typical fallacy (ad hominem attack).
Some never learn that
ad hominem is dithering, not an argument....
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 06:01:53 PM
The Electoral College and Amendment process are both defined in the Constitution. I should like to see an explanation as to how circumventing the latter to change the former would be advocated by people who respected the Constitution.
1. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may not hate Constitution.
2. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may pursue the pact based on legal and constitutional process.
3. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may hate the electoral college system.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
1. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may not hate Constitution.
2. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may pursue the pact based on legal and constitutional process.
3. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may hate the electoral college system.
Sound analysis.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
1. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may not hate Constitution.
2. Significant number of proponents of inter-state pact may pursue the pact based on legal and constitutional process.
1.) NPVIC or something similar necessarily requires proponents to circumvent existing amendment processes because they are difficult. Conscious and purposeful circumvention of existing processes because they are hard does not indicate respect or love for the Constitution.
2.) If NPVIC or something similar succeeds it may be legal under existing state election laws, but constitutionality would almost certainly be determined by SCOTUS. It is difficult to see a state that does not sign on not challenging the offending laws in court. It may end up an original jurisdiction case, so at least the matter may be settled fairly quickly if the need arises.
As it stands, 2024 is the first election where such a scheme may be practicable. But that is doubtful.
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 06:25:34 PM
1.) NPVIC or something similar necessarily requires proponents to circumvent existing amendment processes because they are difficult. Conscious and purposeful circumvention of existing processes because they are hard does not indicate respect or love for the Constitution.
Ok, you win. This makes utmost sense. The intricate and sophisticated logic has enlightened me.
Donald Trump has not grown into the job, because he can't.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2020, 06:30:49 PM
Ok, you win. This makes utmost sense. The intricate and sophisticated logic has enlightened me.
I see.
Quote from: Todd on August 19, 2020, 06:01:53 PM
The Electoral College and Amendment process are both defined in the Constitution. I should like to see an explanation as to how circumventing the latter to change the former would be advocated by people who respected the Constitution.
There would be no change in the Electoral College. The various legislatures would be exercising the duty specifically allotted them by the Constitution of determining how their electoral votes would be allotted. They have the power to decide those votes go the candidate who won the popular vote in their state. They have the power to decide those votes go the winner of the popular vote in the national election.
No disrespect of the EC or Constitution involved.
Fancy that!
Quote from: JBS on August 19, 2020, 06:39:16 PMThere would be no change in the Electoral College.
Correct.
Quote from: JBS on August 19, 2020, 06:39:16 PMNo disrespect of the EC or Constitution involved.
Incorrect. The explicit goal is to alter outcomes of the existing Electoral College and instead favor the popular vote. The popular vote was explicitly and consciously not adopted in the Constitution. Rather than utilize existing Amendment processes, proponents are attempting to rely on extra-constitutional mechanisms. That is why, if adopted, it will almost certainly be challenged in court. But again, we are at least four years away from having to worry about that.
MAGA=Make America Grieve Again
"There is no vaccine for racism."
As the Supreme Court wrote in McPherson v. Blacker (1892), which rejected a constitutional challenge to a Michigan law providing for selection of Electors by a district system, "the appointment and mode of appointment of Electors belong exclusively to the states under the constitution of the United States." We have no uniform national system for appointing Electors, which means the legislatures do not have to consult the public at all. When members of the Florida legislature in 2000 threatened to abandon the results of the statewide popular contest and appoint Electors for a particular candidate, the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore (2000) appeared to endorse their power to do so by denying that citizens have a constitutional right to vote in presidential elections. As the majority put it, "The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for Electors for the President of the United States. . ." When it comes to presidential elections, the voters are at the mercy of the state legislatures.
No state has any say on how another state chooses its electors. If a state instructs its electors to vote for the national vote winner the Constitution availeth not. It's not forbidden.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2020, 07:03:34 PM
"There is no vaccine for racism."
But there's several brands.
Such "Virtue Signal," "BLM Protester," "White Guilt," "White Silence is Violence," "Uncle Tom," "Intersectionality," and "Cancel Mob."
There's also suppository medication (with vegan and soy options) you can use, but it can have side effects in the same way that taking antidepressants can sometimes make people more depressed- it can cause "accidental" racism.
For example, Trevor Noah's friend was on that medication for some time, here's a funny story about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA-sXi8v8Ns
Sometimes lowering the dosage helps, but always best to check with your doctor. I mean, check your doctor's privilege first. If he doesn't have a BLM sign in his office, he isn't woke, so you can just trash the place and leave.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2020, 06:31:17 PM
Donald Trump has not grown into the job, because he can't.
His ego and delusion of grandeur, however, have grown...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2020, 07:01:51 PM
MAGA=Make America Grieve Again
Oh no! It was this all along! ???
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2020, 07:03:34 PM
"There is no vaccine for racism."
One of the best quotes from the convention's first three nights.
--Bruce
There aren't sufficient emojis for this one:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon-arrested-on-charges-of-defrauding-donors-in-fundraising-scheme.html
Praise the Lord!
Quote from: T. D. on August 20, 2020, 05:53:25 AM
There aren't sufficient emojis for this one:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon-arrested-on-charges-of-defrauding-donors-in-fundraising-scheme.html
Praise the Lord!
No! Say it isn't so! I can't believe that close associates and appointees of our president would be involved in fraud and corruption.
Quote from: T. D. on August 20, 2020, 05:53:25 AM
There aren't sufficient emojis for this one:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon-arrested-on-charges-of-defrauding-donors-in-fundraising-scheme.html
Praise the Lord!
The United States Postal Inspection Service assisted in the investigation. Ouch!
I guess Bannon won't be speaking at the Repub convention.
I hear the convention will limit Miss Moscow to one minute.
Beg your pardon.
Quote from: T. D. on August 20, 2020, 05:53:25 AM
There aren't sufficient emojis for this one:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon-arrested-on-charges-of-defrauding-donors-in-fundraising-scheme.html
Praise the Lord!
well, that's pretty much how Trump used his charity foundations, didn't he?
that's how these people are.
It's a daily double!
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/judge-throws-out-trump-challenge-to-manhattan-da-subpoena-for-tax-records.html
A good day for America, a bad day for the Trump crime family. Reinforces the messaging of the DNC, too.
Quote from: T. D. on August 20, 2020, 08:01:42 AM
It's a daily double!
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/judge-throws-out-trump-challenge-to-manhattan-da-subpoena-for-tax-records.html
From the article:
Quote from: Tucker HigginsThe president's attorney, Jay Sekulow, said Trump will appeal the decision. It is unlikely that any records obtained via subpoena by Vance's office will become public before the presidential election this fall, if at all.
Oh well.
Jennifer Rubin:
"When a party wants to honor at its convention the couple who waved weapons at peaceful Black Lives Matter protesters, you have to conclude that it's not only lost touch with Americans but also with decency and reality."
Philip Bump:
Trump's first 2016 campaign manager was arrested for battery after grabbing a reporter in 2016.
His second campaign manager went to prison on a variety of federal charges stemming from the Mueller probe.
His third campaign manager was just indicted on federal fraud charges.
I cannot BELIEVE I forgot to add "it brings me no pleasure to report this."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 20, 2020, 08:55:43 AM
Philip Bump:
Trump's first 2016 campaign manager was arrested for battery after grabbing a reporter in 2016.
His second campaign manager went to prison on a variety of federal charges stemming from the Mueller probe.
His third campaign manager was just indicted on federal fraud charges.
I cannot BELIEVE I forgot to add "it brings me no pleasure to report this."
As for that second one: The Senate Intelligence Committee just published a report on Russian interference in the 2016 election that is twice as long as the Mueller Report. It supposedly confirms in great detail that Manafort directly colluded with a known Russian intelligence asset, Konstantin Kilimnik, to provide RNC polling data to the Russians on a continuing basis. This confirms and expands on reporting in the mainstream media that suggested this conclusion over a year ago. Furthermore, the report supposedly says that Trump lied to investigators when he claimed not to have talked with Roger Stone about the then impending release of stolen emails through Wikileaks. I hope to be perusing this report soon.
Time to impeach Trump!
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 20, 2020, 10:17:24 AM
As for that second one: The Senate Intelligence Committee just published a report on Russian interference in the 2016 election that is twice as long as the Mueller Report. It supposedly confirms in great detail that Manafort directly colluded with a known Russian intelligence asset, Konstantin Kilimnik, to provide RNC polling data to the Russians on a continuing basis. This confirms and expands on reporting in the mainstream media that suggested this conclusion over a year ago. Furthermore, the report supposedly says that Trump lied to investigators when he claimed not to have talked with Roger Stone about the then impending release of stolen emails through Wikileaks. I hope to be perusing this report soon.
Benjamin Wittes has some observations about the report:
First, the Senate Republicans—however they may characterize their findings—have knifed the president in the back. They have, as an initial matter, validated the major findings of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report. They have, in important respects, gone beyond them; they are more aggressive in some of their findings than Mueller was. For example, they assert confidently that Konstantin Kilimnik, the business associate of one-time Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, is a Russian intelligence officer, whereas Mueller did not go that far.Second, they have also knifed Attorney General William Barr in the back. Barr has been on a year-long campaign to discredit the Mueller findings and argue that the Russia investigation should never have taken place. He has disparaged the whole thing as "political spying" and intimated darkly that some conspiracy lies behind it all.
Yet here is the unanimous Senate Intelligence Committee calling "grave" the counterintelligence threat posed by the Trump campaign chairman, calling another advisor "a prime intelligence target and potential vector for malign Russian influence," and describing the candidate himself as seeking advance notice of the disclosure of Russian-stolen emails by WikiLeaks. It is one thing for Mueller to make such findings. It is quite another for the Republican senators themselves to do so—all the while acting as though they are not accusing Trump of anything untoward.Third, while I have contempt for the rhetoric of these Republican senators and I find it almost mind-boggling to try to reconcile the text of this report with their votes in the impeachment only a few short months ago, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the public service they have done here. Yes, they are lying about having done it—pretending they found things other than what they found and did not find the things they actually found. And yes, they are almost religiously evading the moral, legal, and democratic consequences of what they found.
But unlike their counterparts in the House of Representatives, they allowed this investigation to take place. They ran a bipartisan, serious investigation. They worked with their Democratic colleagues to insulate it from an environment rife with pressures. And they produced a report that is a worthy contribution to our understanding of what happened four years ago.
Now all they need to do is tell the truth about what they found.
Bad morning for the brilliant "Right, Russia" think tank.
) In a written statement, Andrew Bates, a spokesman for Democratic nominee Joe Biden, responded to President Trump's remarks, saying that, "not only is our president refusing to take responsibility for his failed leadership that has cost over 170,000 American lives and tens of millions of jobs — he is again giving voice to violence." Bates continued: "After calling neo-Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville 'fine people' and tear-gassing peaceful protesters following the murder of George Floyd, Donald Trump just sought to legitimize a conspiracy theory that the FBI has identified as a domestic terrorism threat." But you'll hear no objections from Republicans.
Also on Wednesday, former Florida governor Jeb Bush tweeted that, "nut jobs, racists [and] haters have no place in either Party." Perhaps he confused the GOP with a mainstream party. (
"They're animals!"
https://www.youtube.com/v/UsjSCuNkKvM
Bannon's indictment confirms that the American right is made up of con artists (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/20/bannons-indictment-confirms-that-american-right-is-made-up-con-artists/)
Well, yeah, but what does Huggy Bear get out of trying to con us?
https://www.youtube.com/v/cRtI7sz2hic
Probably she is doing for the party to remain mainstream for a broader constituent. But not sure about the outcome. Incumbent Markey is progressive while Kennedy is more moderate.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/20/nancy-pelosi-endorses-joe-kennedy-senate-race-399447
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 20, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
Probably she is doing for the party to remain mainstream for a broader constituent. But not sure about the outcome. Incumbent Markey is progressive while Kennedy is more moderate.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/20/nancy-pelosi-endorses-joe-kennedy-senate-race-399447
Pelosi is endorsing one of her caucus. That's all it is.
Her action may help, rather than hamper, Markey.
Saw two relevant things on Twitter tonight
--Pelosi said she decided to endorse JK after Markey tried to make it seem a bad thing that he was a member of the Kennedy family
--In comparison of voting records, Kennedy went for the less progressive option 1.5% of the time compared to Markey. IOW functionally they are both progressives.
The Biden-Cognitive-Decline Dead-Enders are rather silent after Biden's acceptance speech...
Also, it doesn't hurt to see Jill B. embrace Biden with happiness, pride and love, rather than that pained scowl that Melania musters whenever she's required to approach Trump.
Trump has turned the White House into the HQ of a crime syndicate. This is the chance to turn away from decline.
Obviously the only thing Trump can do at his convention speech is promise ("I alone can fix this") a vaccine in January - irrespective of reality, same way he said, last month, he was going to sign a health care bill into law in a fortnight. It's just empty sales talk.
Super-Creepy 46 cinched the nomination. It was close. I was surprised. And he gave a speech, strongly indicating he can still read.
Oh, and people on GMG want to believe Super-Creepy 46 is not experiencing cognitive decline. And so it shall be.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 20, 2020, 07:05:28 PM
Her action may help, rather than hamper, Markey.
I think it boils down to: Kennedy is scared. FWIW, I voted Markey.
Quote from: Herman on August 20, 2020, 11:31:31 PM
The Biden-Cognitive-Decline Dead-Enders are rather silent after Biden's acceptance speech...
Biden speaks from a place Trump doesn't know — the heart (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/biden-speaks-from-a-place-trump-doesnt-know--the-heart/2020/08/21/3ae2ab40-e30e-11ea-b69b-64f7b0477ed4_story.html?hpid=hp_opinions-fullwidth-12-12-00_opinion-card-c-fullwidth%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)Biden quoted Kierkegaard and Seamus Heaney ... whom is Trump going to quote...?
Quote from: JBS on August 20, 2020, 08:23:51 PM
Saw two relevant things on Twitter tonight
--Pelosi said she decided to endorse JK after Markey tried to make it seem a bad thing that he was a member of the Kennedy family
--In comparison of voting records, Kennedy went for the less progressive option 1.5% of the time compared to Markey. IOW functionally they are both progressives.
Verily.
Speaking of cognitive decline, Trump tweeted: "To get into the Democratic National Convention, you must have an ID card with a picture...yet the Democrats refuse to do this when it comes to your very important VOTE! Gee, I wonder WHY???
(* typo *)
No doubt some posters on GMG actually believe Biden wrote his speech.
.
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 04:23:08 AM
Super-Creepy 46 cinched the nomination. It was close. I was surprised. And he gave a speech, strongly indicating he can still read.
Oh, and people on GMG want to believe Super-Creepy 46 is not experiencing cognitive decline. And so it shall be.
So says Fox News as well. Chris Wallace? Both candidates are old and have lost more than a step. Cognitive decline? I don't know. Is that a medical term? I see "cognitive impairment" online. Find me a Dr that's willing to say Biden has dementia and I'll find you one that says nay. I'm guessing these conditions aren't diagnosed online anyway. But it sounds like someone very much wants to say yay!
I heard reports from Postal Handlers Union 308 (NJ, DE, PA) workers this morning on NPR demonstrating that Louis DeJoy's supposed cost reduction measures at USPS are, in fact, purposeful attempts to disrupt and slow mail service. One thing he has ordered is the removal of more than half of the massive sorting machines in that area that do most of the logistical work. There is no indication he intends to have them put back in service. Other essential machinery was disassembled and left outdoors so it could never be used again. Testimony from customers in NJ indicates that some mail that formerly took three days to arrive is now delayed by weeks. Obviously, these measures will not save money. To meet the time deficits created by removing automated sorting equipment would require massive overtime work by human hand, while DeJoy is cutting overtime across the board. The conclusion is obvious: DeJoy's actions are attempts to cripple the USPS. There are two plausible motivations for these actions: (1) to increase the value of DeJoy's multi-million dollar holdings in competing carriers and in private subcontractors whose business includes sorting and handling mail — garden variety corruption — and (2) suppressing voting by mail at the behest of the Scumbag in Chief. Given that preliminary reports indicate that in some crucial states, FL for example, requests for mail-in ballots are much higher among democrats than among republicans, this suggests a measure designed to help steal the election. Expect DeJoy to be raked over the coals in his testimony today before Congress.
Oh, I almost forgot: Among the other measures, postal workers are no longer permitted in the course of their normal duties to act as witnesses for voters bringing their mail-in ballots to local post offices. In prior elections this was standard, especially in rural areas where witnesses are fewer and farther between.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 05:05:07 AM
I heard reports from Postal Handlers Union 308 (NJ, DE, PA) workers this morning on NPR demonstrating that Louis DeJoy's supposed cost reduction measures at USPS are, in fact, purposeful attempts to disrupt and slow mail service. One thing he has ordered is the removal of more than half of the massive sorting machines in that area that do most of the logistical work. There is no indication he intends to have them put back in service. Other essential machinery was disassembled and left outdoors so it could never be used again. Testimony from customers in NJ indicates that some mail that formerly took three days to arrive is now delayed by weeks. Obviously, these measures will not save money. To meet the time deficits created by removing automated sorting equipment would require massive overtime work by human hand, while DeJoy is cutting overtime across the board. The conclusion is obvious: DeJoy's actions are attempts to cripple the USPS. There are two plausible motivations for these actions: (1) to increase the value of DeJoy's multi-million dollar holdings in competing carriers and in private subcontractors whose business includes sorting and handling mail — garden variety corruption — and (2) suppressing voting by mail at the behest of the Scumbag in Chief. Given that preliminary reports indicate that in some crucial states, FL for example, requests for mail-in ballots are much higher among democrats than among republicans, this suggests a measure designed to help steal the election. Expect DeJoy to be raked over the coals in his testimony today before Congress.
Hi Basil,
I came in partway on a NPR story (yesterday I think?) about the impact of the postal cuts. One of the bits of news that I caught: farmers are receiving dead chicks in the mail...Maine, was mentioned specifically. I did find this CBS news story today: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chicks-usps-pingree-dead-maine-farmers/ I am sure that other areas are being effected to as more people are wanting to raise their own chickens during the pandemic.
PD
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 05:05:07 AMI heard reports from Postal Handlers Union 308 (NJ, DE, PA) workers . . .
Union members whose jobs may be on the line may not necessarily give dispassionate analysis. They may not even be informed on the legal mandates Congress has imposed on the USPS pertaining to long-term financial viability. After today's political theater satisfies various sorts, the USPS will carry on as it did before until after the election, when changes will be attempted again, and the now finest and most important service in the world will revert to its status as run of the mill political football.
Quote from: milk on August 21, 2020, 04:54:31 AM
So says Fox News as well. Chris Wallace? Both candidates are old and have lost more than a step. Cognitive decline? I don't know. Is that a medical term? I see "cognitive impairment" online. Find me a Dr that's willing to say Biden has dementia and I'll find you one that says nay. I'm guessing these conditions aren't diagnosed online anyway. But it sounds like someone very much wants to say yay!
Troll's gonna troll.
Decorated military hero Lt Col. Tammy Duckworth: "Donald Trump doesn't deserve to call himself commander in chief for another four minutes — let alone another four years."
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 05:32:41 AM
Union members whose jobs may be on the line may not necessarily give dispassionate analysis. They may not even be informed on the legal mandates Congress has imposed on the USPS pertaining to long-term financial viability. After today's political theater satisfies various sorts, the USPS will carry on as it did before until after the election, when changes will be attempted again, and the now finest and most important service in the world will revert to its status as run of the mill political football.
You didn't read carefully. DeJoy said the cost cutting measures will be discontinued. He quite pointedly did not mention reversing the actions already taken. If the postal handlers reports are true, equipment has already been destroyed. Service will not resume as usual unless the automated equipment is put back into service immediately. Removing more than half the sorting machines has already crippled service.
It's not the handlers' jobs on the line. Every one of those workers will now be more essential. It's machinery that's being retired. In other words, the waste of millions of dollars in material assets. So what do you think is going to happen to the retired sorting machines? I would guess that in the not too distant future they'll be auctioned off and bought up cheaply by private logistics firms like the ones implicated in DeJoy's conflicts of interest.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 05:45:49 AMDeJoy said the cost cutting measures will be discontinued.
Post Office Chief Suspends Controversial Changes Until After Election (https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/903477948/postmaster-general-will-testify-at-senate-hearing-friday)
Quote from: Postmaster General Louis DeJoyTo avoid even the appearance of any impact on election mail, I am suspending these initiatives until after the election is concluded
I can't recall if this was ever posted here before, but even if it was, it may be time for a refresher:
Why the most informed voters are often the most badly misled (https://www.vox.com/2015/6/8/8740897/informed-voters-may-not-be-better-voters)
Quote from: Ezra KleinAchens and Bartels's conclusion is grim: much of what looks like learning in American politics is actually, they argue, an elaborate performance of justifying the beliefs we already hold. "Most of the time, the voters are merely reaffirming their partisan and group identities at the polls. They do not reason very much or very often. What they do is rationalize."
This does not apply to GMG, of course, but it may apply elsewhere.
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 05:50:53 AM
Post Office Chief Suspends Controversial Changes Until After Election (https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/903477948/postmaster-general-will-testify-at-senate-hearing-friday)
Yes, it is this ^ ^ ^ you haven't read carefully.
Quote from: milk on August 21, 2020, 04:54:31 AM
So says Fox News as well. Chris Wallace? Both candidates are old and have lost more than a step. Cognitive decline? I don't know. Is that a medical term? I see "cognitive impairment" online. Find me a Dr that's willing to say Biden has dementia and I'll find you one that says nay. I'm guessing these conditions aren't diagnosed online anyway. But it sounds like someone very much wants to say yay!
Diner Cop has done Law School, School of Medicine and of course an MBA.
So don't second guess him; he's got more degrees than Einstein!
He's even clued in that major political figures use speech writers!
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 04:46:49 AM
No doubt some posters on GMG actually believe Biden wrote his speech.
Self-deception in order to vote against someone is the way to go.
Or it could be he discovered the Fountain of Youth a few days ago and got surgical tubes up to his brain for the water to flow into it, so that only his brain has reversed its age. Anything is possible.
Quote from: greg on August 21, 2020, 06:25:06 AMSelf-deception in order to vote against someone is the way to go.
Sure is. Now, of course, no one on GMG does that. No sir. Most especially people who can't even vote at all.
Quote from: greg on August 21, 2020, 06:25:06 AM
Self-deception in order to vote against someone is the way to go.
Or it could be he discovered the Fountain of Youth a few days ago and got surgical tubes up to his brain for the water to flow into it, so that only his brain has reversed its age. Anything is possible.
It comes down to a choice. I think a lot of people see it that way and not so many Democrats feel it's anything but that. I mean even despite some of the drivel that comes from the media. On the other hand, tump has real enthusiastic dupes, I mean supporters, who actually think Jesus has his hand on Tump's shoulder.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 05:56:12 AM
Yes, it is this ^ ^ ^ you haven't read carefully.
The brilliance extends only so far, I suppose.
The point of efforts to make voting easier is not to get better voters. The goal is to frustrate pols choosing voters instead of voters choosing pols.
I'm not beliefy about the quality of the jury pool like this law professor. Let them have their beliefs and choose their experts if that's what they do. My concern is the quality of the rules for voting, whether they amount to pols choosing the voters who choose them or let voters make their choices unhindered.
Facebook Braces Itself for Trump to Cast Doubt on Election Results (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/21/technology/facebook-trump-election.html)
Quote from: Mike Isaac and Sheera FrenkelMark Zuckerberg, Facebook's chief executive, and some of his lieutenants have started holding daily meetings about minimizing how the platform can be used to dispute the election, the people said. They have discussed a "kill switch" to shut off political advertising after Election Day since the ads, which Facebook does not police for truthfulness, could be used to spread misinformation, the people said.
(https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/lcs-11-hand-wringing.jpg)
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 07:27:17 AM
Facebook Braces Itself for Trump to Cast Doubt on Election Results (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/21/technology/facebook-trump-election.html)
(https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/lcs-11-hand-wringing.jpg)
They're late. He's been doing it for months.
Another article about the current state of mail (in LA): people have been ordering more goods during the pandemic, so now with cutbacks of both staff and/or hours, and removal of sorting machines, you have rotting steaks, fruit, dead chicks and dead crickets and rats(!) running around there, and other mail piling up too--like people's medicines!
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-08-20/usps-cutbacks-post-office-chaos
PD
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 04:46:49 AM
No doubt some posters on GMG actually believe Biden wrote his speech.
And some posters believe the world is only 10,000 years old, so what?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 21, 2020, 08:07:45 AM
Another article about the current state of mail (in LA): people have been ordering more goods during the pandemic, so now with cutbacks of both staff and/or hours, and removal of sorting machines, you have rotting steaks, fruit, dead chicks and dead crickets and rats(!) running around there, and other mail piling up too--like people's medicines!
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-08-20/usps-cutbacks-post-office-chaos
PD
The scumbags who prepared and orchestrated this never think of the extended consequences of their actions. Republicans have been looking to privatize the USPS for decades. Lowlifes like DeJoy have positioned themselves to profit from privitization by buying stock in or running companies that will be waiting to pick up the slack or devour pieces of the corpse. Reminds me of how the Soviet Union's elite carved up state run industry after the fall (and yes, I know the USPS isn't state run) — except the Russians used bought and paid for judges, bogus tax indictments, fraudulent documents of incorporation, and the torture and murder of whistle blowers like Sergei Magnitsky (of Magnitsky Act fame — you know, the legal action whose hoped for repeal was a primary reason Putin wanted Trump in the White House) to accomplish their ends. The criminal scum surrounding Trump are the wanna-be oligarchs of the state the Trumpists want to establish.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 05:45:49 AM
You didn't read carefully. DeJoy said the cost cutting measures will be discontinued. He quite pointedly did not mention reversing the actions already taken. If the postal handlers reports are true, equipment has already been destroyed. Service will not resume as usual unless the automated equipment is put back into service immediately. Removing more than half the sorting machines has already crippled service.
It's not the handlers' jobs on the line. Every one of those workers will now be more essential. It's machinery that's being retired. In other words, the waste of millions of dollars in material assets. So what do you think is going to happen to the retired sorting machines? I would guess that in the not too distant future they'll be auctioned off and bought up cheaply by private logistics firms like the ones implicated in DeJoy's conflicts of interest.
If the reports are true, the machines are being scrapped in a way that makes them worth nothing more than scrap metal.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2020, 04:32:31 AM
Biden speaks from a place Trump doesn't know — the heart (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/biden-speaks-from-a-place-trump-doesnt-know--the-heart/2020/08/21/3ae2ab40-e30e-11ea-b69b-64f7b0477ed4_story.html?hpid=hp_opinions-fullwidth-12-12-00_opinion-card-c-fullwidth%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
It's just kind words. Platitudes. It means nothing. Biden sold his heart decades ago. Anyone with a heart would talk about the necessity of medicare for all in the middle of a pandemic. Biden has made it very clear he wants to be Republican light. He can't wait for the opportunity to make compromises on top of compromises with the Republicans on the expense of regular people watering down everything American need so badly.
Quote from: JBS on August 21, 2020, 08:47:19 AM
If the reports are true, the machines are being scrapped in a way that makes them worth nothing more than scrap metal.
They may be worth something as evidence.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 21, 2020, 08:59:23 AM
It's just kind words. Platitudes. It means nothing. Biden sold his heart decades ago. Anyone with a heart would talk about the necessity of medicare for all in the middle of a pandemic. Biden has made it very clear he wants to be Republican light. He can't wait for the opportunity to make compromises on top of compromises with the Republicans on the expense of regular people watering down everything American need so badly.
If tests are not available/take too long to return results, if hospitals don't have enough space or equipment for patients, if the vaccine can't be rolled out in a timely fashion, if people don't wear masks to prove they hate experts...which is what's going on now here...who pays for it has no bearing.
It also makes no sense in the middle of the pandemic to tell the millions of Americans who do have health insurance that you want to force them into a plan which at best will not give them better than what they have now, and will probably give them worse.
Remember, just because you, a European leftist, thinks something is good, doesn't mean it is good, and does not mean that most Americans think it is good.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 21, 2020, 08:59:23 AM
It's just kind words. Platitudes. It means nothing.
And the funny thing is, what you're writing is just words, too. Only not 'kind' but cynical.
And they're words written by a guy safely thousands of miles away behind a keyboard, desperate to have impact.
Interesting btw you've switched away from the 'cognitive decline' thing.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 21, 2020, 08:59:23 AMIt's just kind words.
Written by someone else, to boot.
Diner Cop's big headline: presidential candidates use speech writers.
Quote from: Herman on August 21, 2020, 10:48:25 AM
Diner Cop's big headline: presidential candidates use speech writers.
Understandable on Todd's part: For a Trump supporter, speech writers are the people who write what their candidate
doesn't want to say, because
his thoughts are too vile and stupid for public presentation and they're trying to make him sound like a complete adult person with a conscience, intelligence, and other human faculties. For Biden and other candidates, by contrast, a speech writer's job is to talk to the candidate and to divine what he/she
wants to say and to articulate it more clearly and forcefully than the candidate is able to on his or her own. I've done work of this kind and that's how it's done.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 11:55:04 AM
Understandable on Todd's part: For a Trump supporter, speech writers are the people who write what their candidate doesn't want to say, because his thoughts are too vile and stupid for public presentation and they're trying to make him sound like a complete adult person with a conscience, intelligence, and other human faculties. For Biden, and other candidates, by contrast, a speech writer's job is to talk to the candidate and to divine what he/she wants to say and to articulate it more clearly and forcefully than the candidate is able to on his or her own. I've done work of this kind and that's how it's done.
World-class political analysis, only on GMG.
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 11:56:08 AM
World-class political analysis, only on GMG.
In other words, you can't dispute a word of my post, you know it's all true, but you, like your candidate, can never admit you're wrong and have to resort to ad hominem comment when you're caught out. Have I divined the essence of your thoughts?
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
In other words, you can't dispute a word of my post, you know it's all true, but you, like your candidate, can never admit you're wrong and have to resort to ad hominem comment when you're caught out. Have I divined the essence of your thoughts?
:laugh:
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 11:55:04 AM
Understandable on Todd's part: For a Trump supporter, speech writers are the people who write what their candidate doesn't want to say, because his thoughts are too vile and stupid for public presentation and they're trying to make him sound like a complete adult person with a conscience, intelligence, and other human faculties. For Biden and other candidates, by contrast, a speech writer's job is to talk to the candidate and to divine what he/she wants to say and to articulate it more clearly and forcefully than the candidate is able to on his or her own. I've done work of this kind and that's how it's done.
Do you really believe that Biden ever read Kierkegaard? Or that the average American ever heard about Kierkegaard?
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2020, 12:15:29 PM
Do you really believe that Biden ever read Kierkegaard? Or that the average American ever heard about Kierkegaard?
Of course we have - he's in Star Trek isn't he! Duh! :)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2020, 12:18:24 PM
Of course we have - he's in Star Trek isn't he! Duh! :)
;D
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2020, 12:15:29 PM
Do you really believe that Biden ever read Kierkegaard? Or that the average American ever heard about Kierkegaard?
Most people have heard the name. Almost anyone who's gone to college will know who he is. It's Harvey that would draw blank looks.
Quote from: JBS on August 21, 2020, 12:44:22 PM
Most people have heard the name. Almost anyone who's gone to college will know who he is. It's Harvey that would draw blank looks.
Most American people have heard the name? I doubt it very .much, honestly. I think most people around the world have not heard the name, Romanians included.
Be it as it .might, I think it's just intellectual sham. Heck, "he" could have quoted any number if American philosophers and writers, couldn't "he"? Why Kierkegaard of all people, I do Wonder?
I mean, he was Scandinavian by extension but no leftist at all.
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2020, 12:53:20 PMMost American people have heard the name?
It is a dubious assertion. It would kind of be fun to see some type of poll showing the best known philosophers in the US.
Quote from: Herman on August 21, 2020, 09:42:12 AMInteresting btw you've switched away from the 'cognitive decline' thing.
No I haven't.
Kierkegaard is popular enough that Penguin Classics have kept three of his books constantly in print on their list with another three or four coming and going as required. Similar for other publishers of popular classics.
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2020, 12:15:29 PM
Do you really believe that Biden ever read Kierkegaard?
The average college-educated American may easily have. I don't think the thesis that Biden has read Kierkegaard, that something stayed with him, is any great stretch, do you?
Biden to ABC's David Muir: 'I would shut [country] down' to prevent spread of COVID-19 if scientists recommended (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-abcs-david-muir-shut-country-prevent-spread/story?id=72519690)
Could be fun.
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2020, 12:53:20 PM
Most American people have heard the name? I doubt it very .much, honestly.
Honestly, a solid majority of liberal-arts-educated Americans have heard the name, I dare assert.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 21, 2020, 03:26:15 PM
Kierkegaard is popular enough that Penguin Classics have kept three of his books constantly in print on their list with another three or four coming and going as required. Similar for other publishers of popular classics.
Exactly.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 21, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
In other words, you can't dispute a word of my post, you know it's all true, but you, like your candidate, can never admit you're wrong and have to resort to ad hominem comment when you're caught out. Have I divined the essence of your thoughts?
Troll's gonna troll.
Also: anyone who reads Dostoevsky is likely to encounter Kierkegaard in the introductions or in some other secondary reading, if they really hadn't already.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2020, 03:34:52 PM
The average college-educated American may easily have. I don't think the thesis that Biden has read Kierkegaard, that something stayed with him, is any great stretch, do you?
I would guess around 50-70%. Intro to Philosophy is one of the main electives offered for required credit, I'd imagine most schools have something like that, and he definitely would be included in an overview.
GMG says guesses are better than facts. Not unexpected.
Good to learn that some posters here on GMG do know for a fact what Mr. Biden has read or not.
Quote from: Todd on August 21, 2020, 04:56:07 PM
GMG says guesses are better than facts. Not unexpected.
*
their guesses are better than facts
If I were to guess at something, and it happened to go against their political convictions, then my guesses are garbage because I don't spend several hours a day reading liberally-biased news articles which will only tell people what they want to hear anyways (ragebait Orange Man bad stuff), all done of course in a frantically meth-induced rabid foaming at the mouth zombie state, in the corner of a dimly lit room in a small laptop screen, all the while proclaiming how bad conspiracies are.
>:D :P
And here's mega-popular youtube bobblehead PewDiePie talking about Kierkegaard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqj3cpVjpI4
...which is probably how Biden knew it.
(edit: "talking" should be in scare quotes)
Quote from: greg on August 21, 2020, 05:15:45 PMragebait Orange Man bad stuff
Orange Man bad. So bad. The worst.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2020, 03:38:18 PM
Honestly, a solid majority of liberal-arts-educated Americans have heard the name, I dare assert.
Kierkegaard's reach was extensive enough that he even was invoked in teaching modern Jewish philosophy. Mostly for his discussion of Abraham as the "knight of faith" and to compare/contrast with writers like Buber and Rav Soloveitchik. But he was referred to, and almost no other nonJewish thinkers were.
Quote from: ritter on August 21, 2020, 05:08:53 PM
Good to learn that some posters here on GMG do know for a fact what Mr. Biden has read or not.
(* chortle *)
Quote from: JBS on August 21, 2020, 05:41:07 PM
Kierkegaard's reach was extensive enough that he even was invoked in teaching modern Jewish philosophy. Mostly for his discussion of Abraham as the "knight of faith" and to compare/contrast with writers like Buber and Rav Soloveitchik. But he was referred to, and almost no other nonJewish thinkers were.
Most interesting. Tangentially, the name Soloveitchik comes from the word for
nightingale
From 2015:
In an emotional interview with TV host Stephen Colbert, US vice president Joe Biden mentioned that he'd found solace in the writing of Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard. He said that his wife, Jill Biden, had taped a Kierkegaard quote to the mirror, which read "Faith sees best in the dark."
Even though I have a degree in guessing from Trump U, I decided to see if Biden might be familiar with Kierkegaard. He is.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2020, 03:38:18 PM
Honestly, a solid majority of liberal-arts-educated Americans have heard the name, I dare assert.
This is certainly true.
Quote from: ritter on August 21, 2020, 05:08:53 PM
Good to learn that some posters here on GMG do know for a fact what Mr. Biden has read or not.
Well, Biden's having read Kierkegaard might be one of the reasons for his alleged cognitive decline. Kierkegaard's style is notoriously convoluted and abstruse, so Biden lost many of his neurons just by trying to make head or tail of
The Sickness unto Death. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 03:22:13 AM
Well, Biden's having read Kierkegaard might be one of the reasons for his alleged cognitive decline. Kierkegaard's style is notoriously convoluted and abstruse, so Biden lost many of his neurons just by trying to make head or tail of The Sickness unto Death. ;D
In the original language, there's a poetic and Schwung-like quality to his texts. I can't say if this is also present in translations, which I suppose can be very varied.
Quote from: drogulus on August 21, 2020, 08:37:59 PM
From 2015:
In an emotional interview with TV host Stephen Colbert, US vice president Joe Biden mentioned that he'd found solace in the writing of Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard. He said that his wife, Jill Biden, had taped a Kierkegaard quote to the mirror, which read "Faith sees best in the dark."
Even though I have a degree in guessing from Trump U, I decided to see if Biden might be familiar with Kierkegaard. He is.
Does Better Research Than Huggy Bear.
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 22, 2020, 04:32:46 AM
In the original language, there's a poetic and Schwung-like quality to his texts. I can't say if this is also present in translations, which I suppose can be very varied.
I suppose it's very difficult to translate it in such a way as to preserve the original features. I've read a few works in Romanian translation and can't say I was very impressed. But who knows, Biden might have even learned Danish in order to read him properly, which would have been yet another intellectually taxing enterprise.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 04:48:25 AM
I suppose it's very difficult to translate it in such a way as to preserve the original features. I've read a few works in Romanian translation and can't say I was very impressed. But who knows, Biden might have even learned Danish in order to read him properly, which would have been yet another intellectually taxing enterprise.
He probably didn't, but apparently he likes to quote some of the more well-known Kierkegaard texts, such as in his quite well-orientated, and compared to #45 very ambitious and cultured, speech in Copenhagen 2018:
"
As the Danish philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard, famously wrote: "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.""
(not difficult to translate ... :); https://www.allianceofdemocracies.org/speech-by-joe-biden/ )
And it was not flattery only, he referred to a local scandal as well:
"
Recently, investigative journalists discovered more than $20 billion in Russian money laundering through just a couple of banks in the Baltic states and Moldova, almost all of it destined for Western financial institutions, including Danske Bank right here in Denmark."
My point is this: just because Biden likes to quote Kierkegaard one should not automatically assume he has a profound knowledge of his works, because --- as in the case of any other famous philosopher --- this is something which can be acquired only after years of dilligent study. Even if Biden really had a deep interest in so doing, I doubt that the hustle and bustle of the American politics left him much time for that.
In general I'm very suspicious and skeptical when politicians try to appear cultured and intellectual. I remember that a few years ago Nick Clegg the then president of the British LibDems wrote a piece in The Guardian about how much he loves, and agrees with, Samuel Beckett. Needless to say he was praised to the sky by the British inteligentsia, yet nobody seems to have noticed that if Clegg really thought Beckett was right then he would have had no business running for the office of prime-minister, because absurdity and purposelessness cannot a sensible and effective policy build.
That wasn't your point you liar.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 22, 2020, 05:34:33 AM
That wasn't your point you liar.
Subtle, cultured and intellectual, just as it was to be expected from you. Bravo!
Well, OTOH some of us prefer politicians who may even only pretend to be cultured and well-read, to others who take pride in being anti-intellectual and who display contempt for culture in general.
I find it really surprising (and worrying) that a candidate for high office in the US (or any other country) is criticised for quoting a well-known thinker of the past. A sign of our times, I suppose
Quote from: ritter on August 22, 2020, 05:41:23 AM
Well, OTOH some of us prefer politicians who may even only pretend to be cultured and well-read, to others who take pride in being anti-intellectual and who display contempt for culture in general.
I find it really surprising (and worrying) that a candidate for high office in the US (or any other country) is criticised for quoting a well-known thinker of the past. A sign of our times, I suppose
That politicians
pretend to be cultured and well-read is even more of a sign of our times, dear Rafael. Politicians of yore really
were such. This doesn't imply that their policies were wiser. The whole Plato theory about philosopher kings is false.
I don't expect, or wish, that the President or Prime-Minister of Romania have a Ph. D. in Existentialism or be a brilliant essayst. I expect, and wish, that they honestly and conscientiously fulfill their constitutional duties and devise and implement sensible and effective policies for the general good.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 05:19:56 AM
My point is this: just because Biden likes to quote Kierkegaard one should not automatically assume he has a profound knowledge of his works, because --- as in the case of any other famous philosopher --- this is something which can be acquired only after years of dilligent study. Even if Biden really had a deep interest in so doing, I doubt that the hustle and bustle of the American politics left him much time for that.
In general I'm very suspicious and skeptical when politicians try to appear cultured and intellectual. I remember that a few years ago Nick Clegg the then president of the British LibDems wrote a piece in The Guardian about how much he loves, and agrees with, Samuel Beckett. Needless to say he was praised to the sky by the British inteligentsia, yet nobody seems to have noticed that if Clegg really thought Beckett was right then he would have had no business running for the office of prime-minister, because absurdity and purposelessness cannot a sensible and effective policy build.
1) Can't say I in any way prefer the opposite, a demonstrative lack of culture and/or excessive vulgarity, like #45, or ... Lukashenko :). A healthy dose of cultural upbringing is essential, IMHO.
2) In terms of Beckett, the absurdity and tragedy of our existence is a pretty basic human experience, that is good to know about and reflect on, it might even lead to less superficial attitudes too. It's not necessarily a manifest for passiveness or the immoral, it can be a point of reference in various ways. I'm sure Beckett upheld logic in his own life too, and he rejected suicide. In fact, Beckett has been said to be descriptive, and to render modern fatigue and disgust
(
"I am not a philosopher. One can only speak of what is in front of him, and that now is simply the mess"), where Sartre (who liked
Waiting for Godot a lot, just as Beckett loved
La Nausee) formulates strategy.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 06:01:03 AM
That politicians pretend to be cultured and well-read is even more of a sign of our times, dear Rafael. Politicians of yore really were such. This doesn't imply that their policies were wiser. The whole Plato theory about philosopher kings is false.
I don't expect, or wish, that the President or Prime-Minister of Romania have a Ph. D. in Existentialism or be a brilliant essayst. I expect, and wish, that they honestly and conscientiously fulfill their constitutional duties and devise and implement sensible and effective policies for the general good.
The opposite trend is the worrying one now.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 06:01:03 AM
That politicians pretend to be cultured and well-read is even more of a sign of our times, dear Rafael. Politicians of yore really were such. This doesn't imply that their policies were wiser. The whole Plato theory about philosopher kings is false.
I don't expect, or wish, that the President or Prime-Minister of Romania have a Ph. D. in Existentialism or be a brilliant essayst. I expect, and wish, that they honestly and conscientiously fulfill their constitutional duties and devise and implement sensible and effective policies for the general good.
Of course what you say is the politicians' primary duty, but upholding and promoting respect for cultural and intellectual values is IMHO part of those duties.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 05:35:47 AM
Subtle, cultured and intellectual, just as it was to be expected from you. Bravo!
You're a liar and you know you're a liar.
How does that feel?
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 05:19:56 AM
In general I'm very suspicious and skeptical when politicians try to appear cultured and intellectual.
That's how I am with politicians who claim knowledge of invisible extraterrestrial beings.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 05:19:56 AM
My point is this: just because Biden likes to quote Kierkegaard one should not automatically assume he has a profound knowledge of his works, because --- as in the case of any other famous philosopher --- this is something which can be acquired only after years of dilligent study. Even if Biden really had a deep interest in so doing, I doubt that the hustle and bustle of the American politics left him much time for that.
No argument with any of that. I'd say Biden was sharing something which means a great deal to him, rather than any pretension.
Quote from: drogulus on August 22, 2020, 06:19:57 AM
That's how I am with politicians who claim knowledge of invisible extraterrestrial beings.
Trump's faults are many, but I do not recall that being one of them.
Quote from: ritter on August 22, 2020, 05:41:23 AM
I find it really surprising (and worrying) that a candidate for high office in the US (or any other country) is criticised for quoting a well-known thinker of the past. A sign of our times, I suppose
+1
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 22, 2020, 06:12:06 AM
You're a liar and you know you're a liar.
Brilliant. Such sagacity, such insight, such elegance. You surpass yourself, really. Wow! Exceptional!
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 06:26:13 AM
Brilliant. Such sagacity, such insight, such elegance. You surpass yourself, really. Wow! Exceptional!
It is typical of deep thoughts found on this forum. So deep.
TD:
Biden draws highest TV ratings of Democratic convention, but down from 2016 (https://thehill.com/homenews/media/513135-biden-draws-highest-tv-ratings-of-week-for-democratic-convention-but-down-from)
Super-Creepy 46 can't even muster Hillary's numbers. I very strongly suspect that won't be reflected in the election results, but it will be funny as hell if it is.
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 22, 2020, 06:04:11 AM
A healthy dose of cultural upbringing is essential, IMHO.
Essential for what?
Nicolae Iorga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Iorga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Iorga)) was a brilliant Romanian polymath, an intellectual giant of international calibre, one of the most cultured and well-read persons in his time in the whole world. He was prime-minister in 1931-32 and his government was a disastruous fiasco, a strong contender for the worst Romanian government ever.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 06:56:58 AMEssential for what?
Nothing. It's a platitudinous assertion.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 06:56:58 AM
Essential for what?
Nicolae Iorga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Iorga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Iorga)) was a brilliant Romanian polymath, an intellectual giant of international calibre, one of the most cultured and well-read persons in his time in the whole world. He was prime-minister in 1931-32 and his government was a disastruous fiasco, a strong contender for the worst Romanian government ever.
Of course, finding a case that failed isn't difficult, just like finding examples of narrow-minded leaders that failed isn't.
For example, decision-makers lacking historical or societal background knowledge, or cutting expenses say in the educational and the cultural sector, based on ignorance or antipathies, will have negative effects. Especially if such governments strengthen their own power to do so.
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 22, 2020, 06:04:11 AM
1) Can't say I any way prefer the opposite, a demonstrative lack of culture and/or excessive vulgarity, like #45, or ... Lukashenko :). A healthy dose of cultural upbringing is essential, IMHO.
2) In terms of Beckett, the absurdity and tragedy of our existence is a pretty basic human experience, that is good to know about and reflect on, it might even lead to less superficial attitudes too. It's not necessarily a manifest for passiveness or the immoral, it can be a point of reference in various ways. I'm sure Beckett upheld logic in his own life too, and he rejected suicide. In fact, Beckett has been said to be descriptive, and to render modern fatigue and disgust
("I am not a philosopher. One can only speak of what is in front of him, and that now is simply the mess"), where Sartre (who liked Waiting for Godot a lot, just as Beckett loved La Nausee) formulates strategy.
The opposite trend is the worrying one now.
Thank you.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 22, 2020, 06:24:25 AM
No argument with any of that. I'd say Biden was sharing something which means a great deal to him, rather than any pretension.
It might be so. The bitter irony is that Kierkegaard's philosophy is anything but progressive or even left, that he was a conservative himself and attacked the progressives of his time in no uncertain terms. For instance, I quote from my memory (which admittedly might not be as accurate as Biden's):
People always ask for new rights and freedoms but almost never make use of those they already have. They claim the freedom of the press but they don't use the freedom of thought. (Irony was one of his best used skills). He had only contempt for democracy which he called "the most tyrannical form of government" and he was deeply suspicious about reason and science. Not exactly your typical Democrat, I'd say.
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 22, 2020, 07:19:08 AM
Of course, finding a case that failed isn't difficult, just like finding examples of narrow-minded leaders that failed isn't.
For example, decision-makers lacking historical or societal background knowledge, or cutting expenses say in the educational and the cultural sector, based on ignorance or antipathies, will have negative effects. Especially if such governments strengthen their own power to do so.
Funny you should say that because that's exactly what Iorga did, triggering the ire of teachers who went on an enraged strike. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 07:25:21 AM
It might be so. The bitter irony is that Kierkegaard's philosophy is anything but progressive or even left, that he was a conservative himself and attacked the progressives of his time in no uncertain terms. For instance, I quote from my memory (which admittedly might not be as accurate as Biden's): People always ask for new rights and freedoms but almost never make use of those they already have. They claim the freedom of the press but they don't use the freedom of thought. (Irony was one of his best used skills). He had only contempt for democracy which he called "the most tyrannical form of government" and he was deeply suspicious about reason and science. Not exactly your typical Democrat, I'd say.
What one finds inspirational need not come from a source in line with one's political leanings.
I see no irony, bitter or otherwise, in that.
Biden to ABC's Robin Roberts: 'I don't want to defund' the police, but Trump does (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-abcs-robin-roberts-dont-defund-police-trump/story?id=72524405)
Thankfully, state and local governments can still defund the police if the feds won't.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 22, 2020, 07:41:27 AM
What one finds inspirational need not come from a source in line with one's political leanings.
True.
Quote
I see no irony, bitter or otherwise, in that.
I do, because if Kierkegaard had had a statue somewhere in the US, and if the recent protesters had been aware of who he was and what he thought, it (the statue, I mean) would have been put down.
People here are so far behind the times.
Being a man of culture nowadays is not being an intellectual reader of philosophy. Come on, that doesn't matter.
It's about loving those big ole anime tiddies.
The only president so far who may have been a man of culture is Obama, for mentioning appreciation of anime.
The notion that only cultured and intellectual people can make good politicians is counterfactual.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 08:14:47 AM
The notion that only cultured and intellectual people can make good politicians is counterfactual.
It normally depends on what policy one defines as 'good'.
Quote from: greg on August 22, 2020, 08:05:08 AM
The only president so far who may have been a man of culture is Obama, for mentioning appreciation of anime.
Nixon, Carter, Clinton, T Roosevelt, etc.
Obama's favorite snack was Matcha ice cream.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 22, 2020, 08:51:38 AM
Obama's favorite snack was Matcha ice cream.
That stuff is great, Matcha flavor just works well for ice cream. It'll always bring back the memory of the first time I had it, after walking through the Arashiyama Monkey Park and Bamboo Forest in Kyouto. 8)
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 22, 2020, 08:50:17 AM
It normally depends on what policy one defines as 'good'.
I personally define as good a policy which either benefits the society as a whole, not just a few privileged groups, or doesn't make things worse than they already are.
And I maintain that being well versed in Kierkegaard or having extensive knowledge about musical Romanticism is completely irrelevant in this respect.
It's all so funny, really. In the days of yore, the aristocracy claimed they were entitled to govern by right of birth. Nowadays the inteligentsia claim they, or at the very least those who they approve of, are entitled to govern by right of education. Both claims are bogus, nobody is entitled to govern by any right.
Quote from: greg on August 22, 2020, 09:03:26 AM
That stuff is great, Matcha flavor just works well for ice cream. It'll always bring back the memory of the first time I had it, after walking through the Arashiyama Monkey Park and Bamboo Forest in Kyouto. 8)
I go to Kyoto mostly every year. I posted pics of my Jogging route in Kyoto at the thread of favorite walks below. If you haven't, you may want to check out the dvd of Memoir of Geisha.
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,30052.40.html
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 09:04:16 AM
I personally define as good a policy which either benefits the society as a whole, not just a few privileged groups, or doesn't make things worse than they already are.
Yes but based on the ideology, the people are divided on which policy would benefit the entire society and which policy would hurt it.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 22, 2020, 09:22:04 AM
Yes but the people are divided on which policy would benefit the entire society and which policy would hurt it.
True. That's why politics is neither an exact science nor a humanities, and why no policy will ever please anybody. That's also why politics is the curse of humanity.
As
Nicolás Gómez Dávila (how's that for culture and intellectual curiosity?) put it, "
History clearly demonstrates that governing is a task that exceeds man's ability."
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 09:26:45 AM
True. That's why politics is neither an exact science nor a humanities, and why no policy will ever please anybody. That's also why politics is the curse of humanity.
Well, the obvious solution is to murder everyone who disagrees with your ideology- nothing wrong with that, right? :)
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 09:26:45 AM
True. That's why politics is neither an exact science nor a humanities, and why no policy will ever please anybody. That's also why politics is the curse of humanity.
I hate to complicate the issue, but many academics and analysts observe that one's ideology determines her policy preference, rather than her policy preference determining ideology. Very many scholars and analysts observe (based on statistical/regression analyses of survey opinion polls, not a yelling competition) that the people's ideology/partisanship is largely, or even mostly, influenced/determined by one's fear of losing White America and fear of cultural diversity. Opinion on tax cut, pro-life, gun rights etc., are just pretexts.
Quote from: greg on August 22, 2020, 09:39:36 AM
Well, the obvious solution is to murder everyone who disagrees with your ideology
Has been tried multiple times. Did not work.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 22, 2020, 09:41:39 AM
many academics and analysts observe that one's ideology determines her policy preference, rather than her policy preference determining ideology.
How surprising!
Quote
Very many scholars and analysts observe (based on statistical/regression analyses of survey opinion polls, not a yelling competition) that the people's ideology/partisanship is largely, or even mostly, influenced/determined by one's fear of losing White America and fear of cultural diversity. Opinion on tax cut, pro-life, gun rights etc., are just pretexts.
This might be true in the USA, but the world is much larger than that. I'm very curious what scholars and analysts have been observing Romanian politics and what they found.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 22, 2020, 09:41:39 AMOpinion on tax cut, pro-life, gun rights etc., are just pretexts.
Tax cuts are always good. Most other domestic issues are either unimportant or entirely unimportant.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 09:48:22 AMThis might be true in the USA, but the world is much larger than that.
Since when?
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 22, 2020, 09:41:39 AM
I hate to complicate the issue, but many academics and analysts observe that one's ideology determines her policy preference, rather than her policy preference determining ideology. Very many scholars and analysts observe (based on statistical/regression analyses of survey opinion polls, not a yelling competition) that the people's ideology/partisanship is largely, or even mostly, influenced/determined by one's fear of losing White America and fear of cultural diversity. Opinion on tax cut, pro-life, gun rights etc., are just pretexts.
And one's ideology is believed to be largely shaped by their personality profile (there were some studies on this).
I think it was something like this:
High openness + low conscientiousness = left liberal
High conscientiousness + low openness = right authoritarian
(I might be slightly wrong about the details there, but the general idea is that there is some correlation)
Anyways, the point is that the spectrum of political beliefs is highly shaped by individual personalities- but of course teams can be changed if the group one finds oneself in starts looking like trash.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 09:42:51 AM
Has been tried multiple times. Did not work.
But Hollywood tells me the good guys ALWAYS win!
So if I murder my political opponents, then I MUST have the superior ideology, right? :)
Quote from: greg on August 22, 2020, 10:01:40 AM
Hollywood tells me the good guys ALWAYS win!
They lie.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 10:09:26 AM
Since always.
I do not believe you.
Quote from: greg on August 22, 2020, 10:01:40 AMBut Hollywood tells me the good guys ALWAYS win!
Hollywood is correct. Everyone knows that.
Quote from: greg on August 22, 2020, 10:01:40 AMSo if I murder my political opponents, then I MUST have the superior ideology, right?
Yes. Victors write history. The best part is that even when victors pretend to have some type of conscience, they don't have to act on it! Take paleface Americans. They genocided Native Americans out of everything and forced them into poverty on shit land. McGirt won't materially change their fate; Native Americans will remain the most socioeconomically disadvantaged group in the country. I see precious little material chatter about massive transfer payments to Native Americans to address (not alleviate) inequality. The lesson is that it is good to win.
Quote from: Todd on August 22, 2020, 10:13:04 AM
I do not believe you.
You shouldn't believe me. You should do your own research.
QuoteVictors write history.
Two minor corrections:
1) victors write textbook history.
2) they also write laws preventing textbook history from being corrected.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 10:24:41 AMYou shouldn't believe me. You should do your own research.
I did. The USA is the center of the universe. Also, the world is flat.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 10:24:41 AM
Two minor corrections:
1) victors write textbook history.
And screenplay history. And teleplay history.
Quote from: Todd on August 22, 2020, 10:26:53 AM
I did. The USA is the center of the universe. Also, the world is flat.
It's on GMG, so it must be true.
Quote
And screenplay history. And teleplay history.
Unqualifiedly true, this.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 06:26:13 AM
Brilliant. Such sagacity, such insight, such elegance. You surpass yourself, really. Wow! Exceptional!
Uh-huh. You could have addressed how my previous posts contradicted your manifestly false notion that almost nobody knows who Kierkegaard is. That condescending notion put me in a surprisingly foul mood yesterday. I think it touched on a lot of experience I had with managers in the indie bookstores I used to be stock buyer for: being constantly told that people were too thick for the books I was ordering in, no matter how often I'd show them selling and selling well.
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 05:19:56 AM
My point is this: just because Biden likes to quote Kierkegaard one should not automatically assume he has a profound knowledge of his works, because --- as in the case of any other famous philosopher --- this is something which can be acquired only after years of dilligent study. Even if Biden really had a deep interest in so doing, I doubt that the hustle and bustle of the American politics left him much time for that.
To this I would ask if you'd say the same thing if Biden was quoting the Bible? If that very same quote was said to come from the Bible? Would you be saying he shouldn't talk about such complex theological issues without years of study. Would you be saying that by quoting the Bible he was just preening his intellectualism?
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 22, 2020, 09:46:06 PM
Uh-huh. You could have addressed how my previous posts contradicted your manifestly false notion that almost nobody knows who Kierkegaard is.
I claimed no such thing. Putting words in my mouth, or twisting my own words, seems to be one of your favorite pastimes. The only extravagant notion that has really been claimed (not by me, though) is that, on the contrary, almost everybody knows who Kierkegaard is.
Quote
To this I would ask if you'd say the same thing if Biden was quoting the Bible? If that very same quote was said to come from the Bible? Would you be saying he shouldn't talk about such complex theological issues without years of study. Would you be saying that by quoting the Bible he was just preening his intellectualism?
Whataboutery.
By all means, though, feel free to believe that Kierkegaard is a familiar name in most American households, that Biden has extensively read him and that any of this has any relevance for the elections or the post-electoral period.
It's not "whataboutery" at all.
What sort of quotes do you find acceptable and which not? And why? I'm looking for a consistent policy here,.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 23, 2020, 12:31:25 AM
It's not "whataboutery" at all.
What sort of quotes do you find acceptable and which not? And why? I'm looking for a consistent policy here,.
It's not a matter of acceptable or not acceptable quotes: everybody may quote whomever and whatever s/he likes. It's about what a certain quote signifies. By quoting Kierkegaard (and Seamus Heaney) Biden signalled he is a sophisticated intellectual, unlike Trump. Quoting the Bible would not have had the same effect because pretty much everyone quotes the Bible, including Trump and his voters. It's all electoral tactics, which is fine, but I'm surprised some people take it for something else.
Quote from: Todd on August 22, 2020, 09:53:26 AM
Tax cuts are always good. Most other domestic issues are either unimportant or entirely unimportant.
Since when?
Are there some good economic studies focused on countries with low tax vs. high tax? I'm curious which countries are examples of success in either category. I guess it's obvious that Nordic countries are successful high-tax countries. I don't know which are considered successful for its low taxes. Maybe Singapore?
I wonder if anyone is arguing that the increasing concentration of wealth in fewer hands is a good thing?
There are a lot of libertarians out there who seem so adamant. I wonder if there is an example of a country that's adopted libertarian policies.
Status quo managers Joe Biden and Kamala Harris in action:
Ending Fossil Fuel Subsidies Quietly Removed From Dem Platform
Frankly every American should watch this video by Kyle Kulinski about how to listen to politicians:
Joe Kennedy III, Platitude Machine
https://www.youtube.com/v/z2BOJqZIhIY
Quote from: Todd on August 22, 2020, 09:53:26 AM
Tax cuts are always good.
Cutting
whose taxes? The Dems tend to favor tax plans that lower taxes for those earning $100,000 or less a year and increase for those earning more (more progressive taxation) while the Republicans favor tax plans that lower taxes for the rich and increase the tax burden for the poor and the middle class (flatter taxation). So, tax cuts for 95 % or 5 % of the earners?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 02:35:18 AM
Frankly every American should watch this video by Kyle Kulinski about how to listen to politicians:
Joe Kennedy III, Platitude Machine
https://www.youtube.com/v/z2BOJqZIhIY
Now apply that to Kulinski and AOC.
Do you know why they're talking about Kennedy's family? Because Kennedy is for all purposes as progressive as Markey. So they can't attack him on policy positions.
The original thesis about Biden and Kierkegaard was that his speechwriter must have come up with the quote to make Biden seem intellectual or profound. That thesis has gone bye bye. The ground has been shifted to:
Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2020, 05:19:56 AM
My point is this: just because Biden likes to quote Kierkegaard one should not automatically assume he has a profound knowledge of his works, because --- as in the case of any other famous philosopher --- this is something which can be acquired only after years of dilligent study. Even if Biden really had a deep interest in so doing, I doubt that the hustle and bustle of the American politics left him much time for that.
This "point" only surfaced after the question of Biden's familiarity with Kierkegaard was settled for all eternity. No one automatically assumed anything of the sort about profound philosophical knowledge.
Present at the Disruption
How Trump Unmade U.S. Foreign Policy (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-08-11/present-disruption)
Quote from: Richard Haass...American allies, for their part, have come to view the United States differently. Alliances are predicated on reliability and predictability, and no ally is likely to view the United States as it did before. Seeds of doubt have been sown: if it could happen once, it could happen again. It is difficult to reclaim a throne after abdicating it...
...But there is no going back to the way things were. Four years may not be a long time in the sweep of history, but it is plenty long enough for things to change irreversibly. China is wealthier and stronger, North Korea has more nuclear weapons and better missiles, climate change is more advanced, the U.S. embassy has been relocated to Jerusalem, and Nicolás Maduro is more entrenched in Venezuela, as is Bashar al-Assad in Syria. This is the new reality...
...And if Trump is reelected? Buoyed by an electoral victory that he would interpret as a mandate, he would likely double down on the central elements of the foreign policy that has defined his first term. At some point, disruption becomes so far-reaching that there is no turning back. Present at the Disruption could become Present at the Destruction.
Countless norms, alliances, treaties, and institutions would weaken or wither. The world would become more Hobbesian, a struggle of all against all. (This was actually previewed in May 2017 in a Wall Street Journal op-ed written by two senior Trump administration officials: "The world is not a 'global community' but an arena where nations, nongovernmental actors and businesses engage and compete for advantage.") Conflict would become more common, and democracy less so. Proliferation would accelerate as alliances lost their ability to reassure friends and deter foes. Spheres of influence could arise. Trade would become more managed, at best growing more slowly, but possibly even shrinking. The U.S. dollar would begin to lose its unique place in the global economy, with alternatives such as the euro, and possibly the renminbi and various cryptocurrencies, growing in importance. U.S. indebtedness could become a major liability. The global order that existed for 75 years would surely end; the only question is what, if anything, would take its place...
A lengthy set of quotes, I know, and likely unnecessary since no doubt GMG intellectuals make it a point to regularly read Mr Haass. Aside from continuing to rely a bit too much on tired mischaracterizations of the past (though this is partially a book ad), he presents a pretty standard institutionalist style case for maintaining the existing international system. Trump's administration has done real damage to the world order, and if reelected he will not be able to kill it, but the permanent dissolution will almost certainly accelerate. Which is why he should win, though he will not. How one perceives the last selected paragraph - good, bad, or the inevitable state of affairs that must be dealt with - of course is influenced by many factors, including ideology. Well, not for GMG intellectuals. They are above ideology.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 02:50:41 AM
Cutting whose taxes? The Dems tend to favor tax plans that lower taxes for those earning $100,000 or less a year and increase for those earning more (more progressive taxation) while the Republicans favor tax plans that lower taxes for the rich and increase the tax burden for the poor and the middle class (flatter taxation). So, tax cuts for 95 % or 5 % of the earners?
That's generally true, but I often take a personal view of fiscal policy. How would an optimal spend and tax policy affect me?
I want my after tax income to go up, and that will include taxed income going up, too. That's how it usually goes, with or without rate changes.
Looking at changes in rates that only affect you directly is not very informative.
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 06:34:03 AM
Present at the Disruption
How Trump Unmade U.S. Foreign Policy (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-08-11/present-disruption)
A lengthy set of quotes, I know, and likely unnecessary since no doubt GMG intellectuals make it a point to regularly read Mr Haass. Aside from continuing to rely a bit too much on tired mischaracterizations of the past (though this is partially a book ad), he presents a pretty standard institutionalist style case for maintaining the existing international system. Trump's administration has done real damage to the world order, and if reelected he will not be able to kill it, but the permanent dissolution will almost certainly accelerate. Which is why he should win, though he will not. How one perceives the last selected paragraph - good, bad, or the inevitable state of affairs that must be dealt with - of course is influenced by many factors, including ideology. Well, not for GMG intellectuals. They are above ideology.
I'm not sure if I've ever seen you answer the question (at the end) in any of your posts, though you've repeatedly suggested that weakening the "global order" is a good thing. I live in Japan and married a Vietnamese, so I can see people around here not being in too much of a hurry to shake things up.
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 06:53:20 AMI'm not sure if I've ever seen you answer the question (at the end) in any of your posts
I have. You missed it. Search the forum and find it.
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 06:57:29 AM
I have. You missed it. Search the forum and find it.
This one or the trump one? The trump one is pretty long.
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 07:14:27 AM
This one or the trump one? The trump one is pretty long.
What?
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 06:53:20 AM
I'm not sure if I've ever seen you answer the question (at the end) in any of your posts, though you've repeatedly suggested that weakening the "global order" is a good thing. I live in Japan and married a Vietnamese, so I can see people around here not being in too much of a hurry to shake things up.
The reference to many factors is vaporous. The only factor considered is ideology.
The US has at different times viewed itself as disconnected from or central to the global order. My view is that the US role has always been subject to factors outside of ideology, and determined by how other countries choose to interact with the largest economic and military power not only in absolute terms, but crucially among open societies. When the "little America" fever breaks, we're still in a world where America is powerful and a world alliance system counts on us. When that "inevitable state of affairs" changes, it won't be because US politics suddenly reverts to a prior formation.
Quote from: JBS on August 23, 2020, 06:16:07 AM
Now apply that to Kulinski and AOC.
Do you know why they're talking about Kennedy's family? Because Kennedy is for all purposes as progressive as Markey. So they can't attack him on policy positions.
Bingo!
Poju, as long as you think that Kulinski is giving you the Gospel, your sense of American politics is hobbled.
Quote from: drogulus on August 23, 2020, 06:32:48 AM
The original thesis about Biden and Kierkegaard was that his speechwriter must have come up with the quote to make Biden seem intellectual or profound. That thesis has gone bye bye. The ground has been shifted to:
This "point" only surfaced after the question of Biden's familiarity with Kierkegaard was settled for all eternity. No one automatically assumed anything of the sort about profound philosophical knowledge.
Bingo II
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 02:19:51 AM
Are there some good economic studies focused on countries with low tax vs. high tax? I'm curious which countries are examples of success in either category. I guess it's obvious that Nordic countries are successful high-tax countries. I don't know which are considered successful for its low taxes. Maybe Singapore?
I wonder if anyone is arguing that the increasing concentration of wealth in fewer hands is a good thing?
There are a lot of libertarians out there who seem so adamant. I wonder if there is an example of a country that's adopted libertarian policies.
As for the studies of the United States, tax cuts were not followed by a significantly larger increase in the GDP and tax increases were not followed by a decrease in GDP growth. Same for consumer spendings.
Quote from: drogulus on August 23, 2020, 06:32:48 AM
The original thesis about Biden and Kierkegaard was that his speechwriter must have come up with the quote to make Biden seem intellectual or profound. That thesis has gone bye bye.
This "point" only surfaced after the question of Biden's familiarity with Kierkegaard was settled for all eternity. No one automatically assumed anything of the sort about profound philosophical knowledge.
Exactly. I would have guessed that Biden had heard some of the quotations he likes second hand, from a friend or from a book of quotations.
Quote from: JBS on August 23, 2020, 06:16:07 AM
Now apply that to Kulinski and AOC.
Okay man: Kulinski and AOC don't talk about "access to affordable healthcare." They talk about medicare for all. We are done.
Quote from: JBS on August 23, 2020, 06:16:07 AMDo you know why they're talking about Kennedy's family? Because Kennedy is for all purposes as progressive as Markey. So they can't attack him on policy positions.
If Kennedy was for all purposes as progressive as Markey, the left wouldn't care much about which one of them wins. Also, Pelosi wouldn't support either of them, because Pelosi hates progressives. Pelosi supports Kennedy which in itself tells to politically literate people he is the less progressive option in the race. Pelosi is against progressives challenging corporate incumbents, but when someone corporate tries to primary an incumbent progressive, Pelosi is all for it! Kennedy is full of platitudes. That was the whole point of the video. That's what happens when you don't have a real ideology and you are in politics for power, status and money. Kennedy doesn't talk about medicare for all, because he doesn't believe in it. He doesn't care if people have healthcare or not. He himself is priviledged and has great healthcare. Those who believe in medicare for all talk about it. They are the progressives, not the Pelosi approved platitude machine Kennedy. Now, Markey is not the most progressive politician out there, but he is certainly more progressive than Kennedy so that for anyone who is interested of progressive ideas the choice between the two is pretty clear.
Does Biden actually know who Kierkegaard is or does he not?
Actually I do not care.
I still prefer him over Trump.
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 06:34:03 AM
Present at the Disruption
How Trump Unmade U.S. Foreign Policy (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-08-11/present-disruption)
A lengthy set of quotes, I know, and likely unnecessary since no doubt GMG intellectuals make it a point to regularly read Mr Haass. Aside from continuing to rely a bit too much on tired mischaracterizations of the past (though this is partially a book ad), he presents a pretty standard institutionalist style case for maintaining the existing international system. Trump's administration has done real damage to the world order, and if reelected he will not be able to kill it, but the permanent dissolution will almost certainly accelerate. Which is why he should win, though he will not. How one perceives the last selected paragraph - good, bad, or the inevitable state of affairs that must be dealt with - of course is influenced by many factors, including ideology. Well, not for GMG intellectuals. They are above ideology.
Trump's mental capacity (or rather the lack of it) is nowhere near up to the task of understanding the complexities and nyances of foreign policy. The US simply needs to wait until the clown has left the White House and then rebuild the foreign policy. It takes a decade or two but it can be done given the occupants of the oval office are much more competent than the current buffoon.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 08:23:33 AMTrump's mental capacity (or rather the lack of it) is nowhere near up to the task of understanding the complexities and nyances of foreign policy.
It does not need to be to achieve certain desired results.
Quote from: drogulus on August 23, 2020, 06:46:25 AM
That's generally true, but I often take a personal view of fiscal policy. How would an optimal spend and tax policy affect me?
I want my after tax income to go up, and that will include taxed income going up, too. That's how it usually goes, with or without rate changes.
Looking at changes in rates that only affect you directly is not very informative.
How much you pay taxes is one side of it. What you get for your taxes is the other side. Medicare for all would be financed from taxes and it would increase your taxes for a few percentage points, but on the other hand you wouldn't pay for premiums, co-pays and deductibles. That's why you would actually save money unless you make a lot of money in which case your taxes go up more than you save from not paying the other stuff.
Americans think their taxes are low (compared to say Europe), but that's not actually the case. Healthcare premiums are "private taxes" and when you add them to the normal taxes the amount of overall taxes American pay isn't really lower than in the Europe. It's just that American's get
less for those taxes, because so much of the money goes to the overblown military and the yachts of healthcare insurance company CEOs. So, no healthcare for everyone, no tuition free education, no paid vacation time by law, no strong social safety nets etc.
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 08:39:05 AM
It does not need to be to achieve certain desired results.
Welll, I'm afraid I don't agree with you about the "desired results." :-\
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 08:48:46 AM
Welll, I'm afraid I don't agree with you about the "desired results." :-\
Most people on the forum appear to want to cling to the post-war international system. That is understandable. It is outdated.
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 09:11:11 AM
Most people on the forum appear to want to cling to the post-war international system. That is understandable. It is outdated.
The way the US does imperialism is outdated. China has the new way: Instead of military force and presence they finance infrastructure developments especially in third world countries (e.g. countries in Africa).
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 09:20:23 AM
The way the US does imperialism is outdated. China has the new way: Instead of military force and presence they finance infrastructure developments especially in third world countries (e.g. countries in Africa).
Yeah, that's great to think about. One of the most corrupt and anti-freedom countries in the world squirting its seed all over the world.
I wonder, 100 years from now, if Africa is still lagging behind the rest of the world in development if anyone will still blame western colonialism or if they will blame China? :P
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 09:20:23 AM
The way the US does imperialism is outdated. China has the new way: Instead of military force and presence they finance infrastructure developments especially in third world countries (e.g. countries in Africa).
It's not a new way.
The Next Empire (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/05/the-next-empire/308018/)
Africans' attitudes toward China's recent initiatives on their continent are perhaps inevitably riddled with ambivalence. Many African intellectuals bridle at Western criticism of China's African full-court press. The West, they say, has long patronized their continent, and since the end of the Cold War, has subjected it to outright neglect. And all of that is true. But the question remains: How does their continent overcome a pattern of extractive foreign engagement—beginning with its first contact with Europe, when gold or slaves were acquired in exchange for cloth and trinkets—that is still discernible today?
This question, which one hears almost everywhere, was addressed most powerfully by the Congolese lawyer I met in Lubumbashi. He received me in his office in his downtown home, where he bathes in water collected from an old parabolic satellite dish, and where he says the mail gets delivered once or twice a year, after he pays a bribe to the post office.
I asked him if the arrival of the Chinese was a new and great opportunity for the continent, as some have said. "The problem is not who is the latest buyer of our commodities," he replied. "The problem is to determine what is Africa's place in the future of the global economy, and up to now, we have seen very little that is new. China is taking the place of the West: they take our raw materials and they sell finished goods to the world. What Africans are getting in exchange, whether it is roads or schools or finished goods, doesn't really matter. We remain under the same old schema: our cobalt goes off to China in the form of dusty ore and returns here in the form of expensive batteries."
Though some of the loans have been reduced now due to the corona crisis, debt-traps form another facet of China's increasing influence in Africa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-trap_diplomacy
Btw, Africa is expected by some UN experts to have a bigger population than China at the end of the century. Nigeria's alone will almost quadruple, they say, and China's will drop massively, whereas India's will grow. The Nigerian economy could then be among the Top-10 of the world, currently it's no.28.
"By the end of the century, the world will be multipolar, with India, Nigeria, China, and the U.S. the dominant powers. This will truly be a new world, one we should be preparing for today," said Dr. Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of The Lancet". So apparently not finding EU, Japan or, say, Brazil worth mentioning, and still very optimistic as regards the US.
Such predictions have of course been wrong before, though - 'According to a modeling study by the University of Washington, the world's population would be far less in the next century than previously estimated, but a lot older, providing opportunities to countries with young populations to boost their economies.'
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-15/Nigeria-to-become-ninth-largest-economy-as-world-population-shrinks-S7zJvuqynS/index.html
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 09:20:23 AM
The way the US does imperialism is outdated. China has the new way: Instead of military force and presence they finance infrastructure developments especially in third world countries (e.g. countries in Africa).
I doubt the people of Hong Kong and Taiwan are quite so keen on Chinese imperialism as you. Likewise, nation states now trapped in BRI debt traps probably have a dimmer view than you do.
Quote from: greg on August 23, 2020, 09:37:47 AM
I wonder, 100 years from now, if Africa is still lagging behind the rest of the world in development if anyone will still blame western colonialism or if they will blame China? :P
Some might even blame the U.S. for withdrawing from the world stage rather than projecting soft power that would have been in the long-term national interest.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 23, 2020, 11:22:36 AM
Some might even blame the U.S. for withdrawing from the world stage rather than projecting soft power that would have been in the long-term national interest.
People have blamed the US for everything for decades. No biggie.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 23, 2020, 11:22:36 AM
Some might even blame the U.S. for withdrawing from the world stage rather than projecting soft power that would have been in the long-term national interest.
And blame the eligible US voters who sat on their thumbs.
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 11:17:49 AM
I doubt the people of Hong Kong and Taiwan are quite so keen on Chinese imperialism as you. Likewise, nation states now trapped in BRI debt traps probably have a dimmer view than you do.
Why do you think I am "quite so keen" on Chinese imperialism? I haven't said a word about what I think about Chinese imperialism, have I? If I say 2+2=4 you are not supposed to think 4 is my favorite number. I don't think I am keen on any kind of imperialism.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 01:06:46 PM
Why do you think I am "quite so keen" on Chinese imperialism? I haven't said a word about what I think about Chinese imperialism, have I? If I say 2+2=4 you are not supposed to think 4 is my favorite number. I don't think I am keen on any kind of imperialism.
Be careful, saying 2+2=4 is starting to be considered oppressive.
(https://cms.thepostmillennial.com/content/images/size/w1000/2020/08/106005473_581236149498647_909309186630188461_n.jpg)
(https://cms.thepostmillennial.com/content/images/size/w1000/2020/08/116691863_516767865790545_4978873013388864132_n.jpg)
(apparently this is a thing in
1984, but it's been so long since I read it that i don't remember what role it played)
Quote from: greg on August 23, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Be careful, saying 2+2=4 is starting to be considered oppressive.
How about
200 + 200 = 400 ?
Or
10
2 + 10
2 = 100
2 ?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 01:06:46 PMI don't think I am keen on any kind of imperialism.
Whew.
Quote from: greg on August 23, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
Be careful, saying 2+2=4 is starting to be considered oppressive.
(https://cms.thepostmillennial.com/content/images/size/w1000/2020/08/106005473_581236149498647_909309186630188461_n.jpg)
(https://cms.thepostmillennial.com/content/images/size/w1000/2020/08/116691863_516767865790545_4978873013388864132_n.jpg)
(apparently this is a thing in 1984, but it's been so long since I read it that i don't remember what role it played)
It's an example of base 10 supremacy and its colonialist outposts of base 5, base 6, etc.
Long live base 4! 2+2=10!
Long live base 3! 2+2=11!
Overthrow the oppression of counting based on ten fingers!
Quote from: JBS on August 23, 2020, 04:10:51 PM
Overthrow the oppression of counting based on ten fingers!
Indeed, Western society is very Polydactylyphobic, so we must burn it down! How dare they assume people have ten fingers!
I should have shouted "binaryphobe," "hexadecimalphobe," or "polydactylyphobe" to my math teacher every day in school to shame him into giving me better grades. 8)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2020, 08:17:19 AM
Also, Pelosi wouldn't support either of them, because Pelosi hates progressives. Pelosi supports Kennedy which in itself tells to politically literate people he is the less progressive option in the race. Pelosi is against progressives challenging corporate incumbents, but when someone corporate tries to primary an incumbent progressive, Pelosi is all for it! Kennedy is full of platitudes. That was the whole point of the video. That's what happens when you don't have a real ideology and you are in politics for power, status and money. Kennedy doesn't talk about medicare for all, because he doesn't believe in it. He doesn't care if people have healthcare or not. He himself is priviledged and has great healthcare. Those who believe in medicare for all talk about it. They are the progressives, not the Pelosi approved platitude machine Kennedy. Now, Markey is not the most progressive politician out there, but he is certainly more progressive than Kennedy so that for anyone who is interested of progressive ideas the choice between the two is pretty clear.
I italicized everything in that quote that is a platitude or cliche.
Markey and Kennedy have voting records. They vote for the same things 98.5% of the time.
To say Kennedy is less progressive is malarkey, if you will forgive me that cliche.
Opposing Kennedy because he's just latest iteration of a big political dynasty is reasonable, but don't pretend he's much different on policy.
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 07:17:37 AM
What?
This thread was created in June I believe. Before that, we were arguing this stuff in a thread devoted to trump. Or am I having a hallucination?
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 05:22:19 PM
This thread was created in June I believe. Before that, we were arguing this stuff in a thread devoted to trump. Or am I having a hallucination?
Again, what?
Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2020, 05:40:20 PM
Again, what?
I give up. I'm going back to my knitting.
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 06:53:19 PM
I give up. I'm going back to my knitting.
Maybe knit a hearing aid for Todd. 😆
Quote from: greg on August 23, 2020, 06:57:27 PM
Maybe knit a hearing aid for Todd. 😆
;D
I do think it's much easier to take shots at people than to put forth an idea of how this is supposed to work.
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 10:32:08 PM
;D
I do think it's much easier to take shots at people than to put forth an idea of how this is supposed to work.
I guess it gives him his jollies.
Quote from: JBS on August 23, 2020, 04:26:27 PM
I italicized everything in that quote that is a platitude or cliche.
Markey and Kennedy have voting records. They vote for the same things 98.5% of the time.
To say Kennedy is less progressive is malarkey, if you will forgive me that cliche.
Opposing Kennedy because he's just latest iteration of a big political dynasty is reasonable, but don't pretend he's much different on policy.
What does the 1.5 % difference tell? What have those votes have been about? How often is there votes on progressive ideas such as medicare for all in the house or senate? Voting records don't tell everything, because oftentimes it's about compromise. Which compromise do you choose? Everybody knows Bernie Sanders is the most progressive senator in the country, yet his voting record indicates otherwise. It's because there are no real progressive votes in the senate (or house for that matter). Bernie Sanders can't show how progressive he is. There is no vote on medicare for all when he could vote YES. There's only votes between shitty corporate options and sometimes Bernie Sanders has to vote for the "less progressive" * option to have the "better" compromise and evil corporates craft these compromises on purpose to put progressives in line.
* What is a progressive vote is determined by how "progressives" have voted in general, but because the votes are crafted so that they are compromises this leads to unclear/weird conclusions about what is a "progressive vote".
As I said, Ed Markey is not super-progressive. This is about principles. Pelosi is angry for progressives challenging corporate incumbents saying
incumbents should not be challenged, but flips immediately when someone mildly progressive is challenged giving her support immediately for the challenger. Pelosi doesn't have principles. She is a hack and Shahid Buttar should replace her.
"Dad, what did you do, during the Coronavirus pandemic?" "I was a proud troll on the Internet, son."
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:10:04 AMPelosi doesn't have principles. She is a hack and Shahid Buttar should replace her.
Keep in mind that finger waggin', denture jostlin' Nancy has principles sufficient to please her Democrat constituents.
Also keep in mind that Shahid Buttar has precisely the same chance of unseating Nancy Pelosi that I do.
Quote from: milk on August 23, 2020, 06:53:19 PM
I give up. I'm going back to my knitting.
I stopped taking Todd seriously ages ago. I consider him a "Ben Shapiro simulator" that gives a funny answer when you say something rational or left-leaning. I also learned to take JBS's posts calmly. JBS makes kind of "good" posts. The problem is he doesn't see his own corporate bias and I haven't been able to make him see it despite my hard efforts so he keeps thinking things like medicare for all means lower quality care or the US is too big of a country to do medicare for all. Funny how the US is never too big for corporate things, but so often for progressive things. I wonder if JBS has a clever answer for that. Whatever it is I'm sure I can debunk it somehow. I may not convert anyone to the left, but I can at least challenge myself here and become a better debater. :)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:35:14 AMbut I can...become a better debater.
That is most certainly not what you are doing.
Quote from: Todd on August 24, 2020, 05:33:51 AM
Keep in mind that finger waggin', denture jostlin' Nancy has principles sufficient to please her Democrat constituents.
Also keep in mind that Shahid Buttar has precisely the same chance of unseating Nancy Pelosi that I do.
Name recognation. Many people are ignorant about politics and that there are better options. Corporate media worships her. Shahid Buttar smeared with bs allegations. Yeah, it's amazing and sad that people keep voting for Pelosi not knowing she is about collection tons of corporate money for the Democratic Party (that's why the party loves her) and in return blocking as much progressive ideas as possible.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:42:55 AMName recognation. Many people are ignorant about politics and that there are better options. Corporate media worships her. Shahid Buttar smeared with bs allegations. Yeah, it's amazing and sad that people keep voting for Pelosi not knowing she is about collection tons of corporate money for the Democratic Party (that's why the party loves her) and in return blocking as much progressive ideas as possible.
That there's some strong debating.
Quote from: Todd on August 24, 2020, 05:38:40 AM
That is most certainly not what you are doing.
Are you saying you are dragging my progress? Maybe you should up your game yourself? ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:45:26 AM
Are you saying you are dragging my progress? Maybe you should up your game yourself? ;)
You do not debate. You proselytize.
Quote from: Todd on August 24, 2020, 05:44:29 AM
That there's some strong debating.
Certainly stronger than your "Again, what?" posts. ;)
Quote from: Todd on August 24, 2020, 05:46:25 AM
You do not debate. You proselytize.
proselytizing people is the
goal of my debating.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:50:08 AM
proselytizing people is the goal of my debating.
Ah.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:42:55 AM
Name recognation. Many people are ignorant about politics and that there are better options. Corporate media worships her. Shahid Buttar smeared with bs allegations. Yeah, it's amazing and sad that people keep voting for Pelosi not knowing she is about collection tons of corporate money for the Democratic Party (that's why the party loves her) and in return blocking as much progressive ideas as possible.
The episode before last ofThe Axe Files is a 70-minute interview with Pelosi.
I'd recommend you listen to it. What wirh you being one of the few genuine critical thinkers who isn't brainwashed by the groupthink of his chosen prophets...
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/turner-podcast-network/the-axe-files-presented-by-the-university-of-chicago-institute/e/77088909
You should pay special attention to what she says will be the first bunch of her bills to come off Mitch McConnell's desk once it becomes Chuck Schumer's.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:42:55 AM
Many people are ignorant about politics ....
You don't say?
) The Republican Party revealed its descent into a cult of personality by declaring on Sunday that it would have no party platform at its convention this week, only a pledge of complete loyalty to President Trump. The party proclaimed in a resolution that "The [Republican National Committee] enthusiastically supports President Trump and continues to reject the policy positions of the Obama-Biden Administration, as well as those espoused by the Democratic National Committee today ... [and that] the Republican Party has and will continue to enthusiastically support the President's America-first agenda." Any platform would be ruled "out of order," according to the resolution. It is quite a confession of intellectual vacuity. (
This entire debate is insane.
So what if Nancy Pelosi is a witch.
The bottom line is that in order to carry out their agenda, conservatives are willing to destroy this country.
The latest casualty is the United States Postal Service.
My brother-in-law, who lives in North Carolina, sent a letter to us in Fairfax, Virginia. At one time we would receive it in a few days. It took over three weeks!!!
We just received a bill that was mailed to us three weeks ago from Philadelphia.
At one time when I ordered CD's from Arkiv Music I would receive them in a few days. Now it takes over a week.
My wife and I receive our medications from a mail order. Again we used to receive our prescriptions in a few days. Now it takes over a week.
These delays started to occur when the new Trump stooge took office.
In spite of what has happened, the Trump trolls still think he is a great President.
There is no excuse for what he has done to the United States Postal Service.
This is just too funny:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53897647
Jerry Falwell Jr resigns Liberty University post amid sex scandal
The influential head of a major US evangelical college has resigned amid allegations about his private life.
Jerry Falwell Jr took a leave of absence earlier this month after posting a photo of himself with trousers unzipped on Instagram.
Further scandals have since emerged, including someone who claimed to have had a sexual relationship involving Mr Falwell Jr and his wife.
Mr Falwell Jr has now resigned as president of Liberty University.
No official reason has yet been given for his departure.
A prominent supporter of US President Donald Trump, he took over at the college after the death of his father, Jerry Falwell.
Mr Falwell Sr founded the university in the 1970s as well as the conservative Moral Majority movement.
Pity that; I was thinking about applying to Liberty University with a possible dual major in Evolution and Climate Change! :laugh: Edging out their surely excellent programs in Black Studies and Gender Studies! :laugh:
Quote from: T. D. on August 24, 2020, 02:46:22 PM
This is just too funny:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53897647
Jerry Falwell Jr resigns Liberty University post amid sex scandal
The influential head of a major US evangelical college has resigned amid allegations about his private life.
Jerry Falwell Jr took a leave of absence earlier this month after posting a photo of himself with trousers unzipped on Instagram.
Further scandals have since emerged, including someone who claimed to have had a sexual relationship involving Mr Falwell Jr and his wife.
Mr Falwell Jr has now resigned as president of Liberty University.
No official reason has yet been given for his departure.
A prominent supporter of US President Donald Trump, he took over at the college after the death of his father, Jerry Falwell.
Mr Falwell Sr founded the university in the 1970s as well as the conservative Moral Majority movement.
Pity that; I was thinking about applying to Liberty University with a possible dual major in Evolution and Climate Change! :laugh: Edging out their surely excellent programs in Black Studies and Gender Studies! :laugh:
Now he has time to prepare his speech to the RNC about family values.
Quote from: drogulus on August 24, 2020, 03:37:24 PM
Now he has time to prepare his speech to the RNC about family values.
There are likely chumps who still think he's a "man of God"; they would all be Trump voters.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2020, 04:00:04 PM
There are likely chumps who still think he's a "man of God"; they would all be Trump voters.
If the evangelicals can support Trump, they can support Junior Falwell — and probably Satan too. (That last bit is rhetorical, I don't believe in supernatural phenomena — except perhaps the supernatural hypocrisy of evangelicals.)
Whoa Nellie! Junior's still fighting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53897647
Jerry Falwell Jr denies quitting Liberty University amid sex scandal
The head of a major US evangelical college has denied reports he has quit his job amid allegations about his private life.
The Washington Post, the Associated Press and other US media reported his resignation on Monday, citing officials from the institution.
But the influential evangelical has now denied he has left the role.
Speaking to a Politico on Monday, Falwell Jr said the reports he had quit the post were untrue.
"I have not resigned. How did those reports get out? I don't know," he told the news site.
A senior official at Liberty University told CBS News: "Board leadership have been in discussion with Jerry Falwell and expect to be able to make a statement on Tuesday." They would not comment on the reports he had quit.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 24, 2020, 05:35:14 AM
I stopped taking Todd seriously ages ago. I consider him a "Ben Shapiro simulator" that gives a funny answer when you say something rational or left-leaning. I also learned to take JBS's posts calmly. JBS makes kind of "good" posts. The problem is he doesn't see his own corporate bias and I haven't been able to make him see it despite my hard efforts so he keeps thinking things like medicare for all means lower quality care or the US is too big of a country to do medicare for all. Funny how the US is never too big for corporate things, but so often for progressive things. I wonder if JBS has a clever answer for that. Whatever it is I'm sure I can debunk it somehow. I may not convert anyone to the left, but I can at least challenge myself here and become a better debater. :)
For one thing, the US is bigger than any corporation. Do you realize there are plenty of places Amazon does not deliver to? Especially in rural areas they use the US Postal Service to get the package to the customer. The biggest health care insurer in the US is the government via Medicare and Medicaid. They don't do a very good job. Which is why Medicare for All--where everyone will have no choice other than to accept that not very good job--is a bad idea.
And stop slapping the label "corporate" on anything that you don't like. It's no more valid than the GOP calling everything it doesn't like "socialist".
^^^
Of course there are problems with Medicare and Medicaid. Especially since the Republicans have been trying to sabotage these programs for decades.
Pres. Trump is a symptom, rather than a cause, of the ill in the U.S.A.. Regardless who would win in the 2020 election, about half of the population who voted for him in 2016 would remain unchanged. The best candidate for them happened to be Trump in 2016, but it could have been anybody who chose to be a demagogue. The rising white nationalism, resentment to cultural diversity and declining conscience in the populace will continue.
Watching a couple of minutes of Guilfoyle's amazing lie-fest speech on day 1 of the RNC I was reminded of people saying of Hillary she sounded shrill.
This KG shouted her way through all those lies, looking extremely creepy with her angry face, and yet, not one nice Republic person said she sounded a little shrill.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 24, 2020, 07:38:04 PMThe rising white nationalism, resentment to cultural diversity and declining conscience in the populace will continue.
What types of quantifiable, objective measurements are available for these listed items? The SPLC attempts to quantify the first using the number of hate groups as identified by them as a proxy, but the others appear to be purely nebulous, prone to the whims of the observer.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 24, 2020, 07:38:04 PM
Pres. Trump is a symptom, rather than a cause, of the ill in the U.S.A.. Regardless who would win in the 2020 election, about half of the population who voted for him in 2016 would remain unchanged. The best candidate for them happened to be Trump in 2016, but it could have been anybody who chose to be a demagogue. The rising white nationalism, resentment to cultural diversity and declining conscience in the populace will continue.
All true, alas, especially as Trump has emboldened the bigots to speak their vileness out loud
Quote from: Herman on August 25, 2020, 02:56:13 AM
Watching a couple of minutes of Guilfoyle's amazing lie-fest speech on day 1 of the RNC I was reminded of people saying of Hillary she sounded shrill.
This KG shouted her way through all those lies, looking extremely creepy with her angry face, and yet, not one nice Republic person said she sounded a little shrill.
The Republican National QAnonvention: RESOVLVED!!
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 24, 2020, 07:38:04 PM
Pres. Trump is a symptom, rather than a cause, of the ill in the U.S.A.. Regardless who would win in the 2020 election, about half of the population who voted for him in 2016 would remain unchanged. The best candidate for them happened to be Trump in 2016, but it could have been anybody who chose to be a demagogue. The rising white nationalism, resentment to cultural diversity and declining conscience in the populace will continue.
Much as some might enjoy rhetorical neatness, dichotomies like this are nearly always suspect or false. Obviously, Trump is both a symptom and a cause. He's a uniquely toxic specimen (one hopes).
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 25, 2020, 05:19:45 AM
Much as some might enjoy rhetorical neatness, dichotomies like this are nearly always suspect or false. Obviously, Trump is both a symptom and a cause. He's a uniquely toxic specimen (one hopes).
Accepted, as amended.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 25, 2020, 05:19:45 AM
Much as some might enjoy rhetorical neatness, dichotomies like this are nearly always suspect or false. Obviously, Trump is both a symptom and a cause. He's a uniquely toxic specimen (one hopes).
I'm afraid, the statement is more rhetorical than mine.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 25, 2020, 05:00:38 AM
Trump has emboldened the bigots to speak their vileness out loud
Yea to this. That's why they love him. He gives them permission to be their worst selves and absolves them of their most despicable sins. And it's not just bigotry. It's intellectual laziness, envy, and irresponsibility too. Because they believe his delusional personal mythology about being a self-made man, a great deal maker, a successful businessman (as opposed to a low-rent con man and criminal with a rich daddy) and so on, they take him as proof that knowledge and thoughtfulness are overvalued, that careless whim and instinct are just as viable, that morality is an effete affectation, and that it's okay for them to hate all of the smart, smug people who make them feel inferior. And this also explains why they cling to him no matter how much evidence of incompetence and corruption stacks up against him. Their views of themselves are tied to their delusional misaappraisal of him. They're addicted. Acknowledging his true nature means confronting their own and acknowledging that they've sold their self-respect cheaply. Withdrawal is a bitch.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 25, 2020, 07:43:28 AM
I'm afraid, the statement is more rhetorical than mine.
It's not a matter of more or less. Those modifiers don't even make sense for "rhetorical." I'd say it's trying to find an explanation that acknowledges the messiness of reality versus a false and simplistic clarity.
Quote from: JBS on August 24, 2020, 05:41:30 PM
For one thing, the US is bigger than any corporation.
Run by the big corporations at least... :-\
Quote from: JBS on August 24, 2020, 05:41:30 PMDo you realize there are plenty of places Amazon does not deliver to? Especially in rural areas they use the US Postal Service to get the package to the customer.
In Finland Amazon delivers
nowhere. If I order something from Amazon, the package is delivered to me by Finnish postal service (Posti) or UPS. Sweden is getting it's dedicated Amazon in the near future and it remains to be seen what it means for Finnish customers.
Quote from: JBS on August 24, 2020, 05:41:30 PMThe biggest health care insurer in the US is the government via Medicare and Medicaid.
Looking at the statistics Medicare and Medicaid both cover about 18 % of Americans. The rest 64 % of Americans are covered by private insurers or are uncovered (about 10 % before Trump & Covid-19 and about 20 % after Trump & Covid-19). The biggest insurer of Americans is the private sector as a whole. The total failure of the private sector to cover everybody has led to the need of Medicare and Medicaid programs and still millions of Americans lack healthcare in the richest country in the World. Pathetic, but that's what happens when corporations run a country.
Quote from: JBS on August 24, 2020, 05:41:30 PMThey don't do a very good job. Which is why Medicare for All--where everyone will have no choice other than to accept that not very good job--is a bad idea.
I think they do what they can with the resources they have. What's the alternate? All those 36 % of Americans covered by Medicare and Medicaid without healthcare because they can't afford private coverage?
You can come up with a crappy "JBS's medicare for all" in your mind, but just know the left is not asking
that kind of healtcare, but a single payer system all other developped countries have. Medicare for all would be build on the existing Medicare, but it would be much better, because of better funding (yes, those tax rises the right fearmongers about). All the healthcare resources (doctors, hospitals etc.) in the country would in the use of medicare for all. Suddenly you could go to any doctor or in any hospital because there would not be networks anymore, all of it without fear of massive healthcare bills.
Quote from: JBS on August 24, 2020, 05:41:30 PMAnd stop slapping the label "corporate" on anything that you don't like. It's no more valid than the GOP calling everything it doesn't like "socialist".
You can't tell other people what labels they can use. It's my own business what labels I use. I use the label "corporate" for things that ARE corporate. I find it logical and consistent. Corporatism has it's place*, but when it's applied to things where it doesn't belong to and it causes problems/poor results I have no choice but to not like it.
* As I have told many times I am a supporter of social democracy which tries to combine the best aspects of capitalism and socialism. We "need" corporations such as Amazon, but as you yourself said, Amazon can't deliver in every rural area so we need "socialism" ( US Postal Service) to do the
rest so that every American can order form Amazon.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2020, 11:59:53 AM
) The Republican Party revealed its descent into a cult of personality by declaring on Sunday that it would have no party platform at its convention this week, only a pledge of complete loyalty to President Trump. The party proclaimed in a resolution that "The [Republican National Committee] enthusiastically supports President Trump and continues to reject the policy positions of the Obama-Biden Administration, as well as those espoused by the Democratic National Committee today ... [and that] the Republican Party has and will continue to enthusiastically support the President's America-first agenda." Any platform would be ruled "out of order," according to the resolution. It is quite a confession of intellectual vacuity. (
Oh, God help us! :(
Quote from: arpeggio on August 24, 2020, 01:43:03 PM
This entire debate is insane.
So what if Nancy Pelosi is a witch.
The bottom line is that in order to carry out their agenda, conservatives are willing to destroy this country.
The latest casualty is the United States Postal Service.
My brother-in-law, who lives in North Carolina, sent a letter to us in Fairfax, Virginia. At one time we would receive it in a few days. It took over three weeks!!!
We just received a bill that was mailed to us three weeks ago from Philadelphia.
At one time when I ordered CD's from Arkiv Music I would receive them in a few days. Now it takes over a week.
My wife and I receive our medications from a mail order. Again we used to receive our prescriptions in a few days. Now it takes over a week.
These delays started to occur when the new Trump stooge took office.
In spite of what has happened, the Trump trolls still think he is a great President.
There is no excuse for what he has done to the United States Postal Service.
Did you notice any delays prior to then...due to Covid? Or do you think that they all are due to the changes that he's made? Just trying to get an idea of 'before vs. after he was put in place'. I believe that he took over June 15th? Just curious as I know that shipments, like from Amazon have greatly increased, (see previous comments about that and delays, etc.). I very seldom order online these days myself. Very sorry, in any event, to hear of the delays in your area....particularly as far as medicine goes. Thankfully, as far as I can tell, things are o.k. here; then again, I don't normally watch closely as to how quickly certain things have arrived unless something is really late.
PD
I watched a couple more clips from day 1
I guess it's official now.
The GOP is America's Fascist party.
You can vote R hoping for a tax cut, but they'll run the country in the ditch just the same.
Behind the Cynical Stunt to Impeach Ohio's Governor
Another data point in the "Burn It Down" debate: GOP state reps are drawing up articles of impeachment for Mike DeWine. (https://thebulwark.com/behind-the-cynical-stunt-to-impeach-ohios-governor/)
For Today's GOP, the Power Is the Point (https://thebulwark.com/for-todays-gop-the-power-is-the-point/)
As Republicans moved from the party of Nixon to the party of Reagan, they couched their work as a defense of the Constitution and claimed to be conserving classically liberal ideals: separation of power, checks and balances, property rights, individual rights, and so on. More deeply, Republicans and conservatives claimed to be defending virtue in public and private life. They were proud of themselves for standing up to the corruptions of Richard Nixon and Joseph McCarthy and the bigotries of the Birchers. Above all, conservative intelligentsia, mostly in the pages of National Review, claimed to be defending the idea of a natural right against the moral relativism of the progressive left and historicism and positivism in academia. And, to be fair, they did more than claim. They did make these arguments.
Not anymore. Looking at the Republican party and the conservative movement, one has to struggle and squint to see even the slightest reflection of any of the ideals they formerly championed. (https://thebulwark.com/for-todays-gop-the-power-is-the-point/)
Quote from: Herman on August 25, 2020, 10:18:39 AM
The GOP is America's Fascist party.
More or less. The "too-far-right-gone-and-detached-from-reality" party. The (corporate) Democrats are the new Republicans supporting the Heritage Foundation type of healthcare and the progressive Dems are what the Dems should have been all along, the party of regular working people.
Quote from: Herman on August 25, 2020, 10:18:39 AMYou can vote R hoping for a tax cut, but they'll run the country in the ditch just the same.
Republican tax cuts tend to lower taxes for those making $100,000 a year or more while shifting the tax burden (someone has to pay taxes) to those earning less (flatter taxation) while the Dems favor more progressive taxation.
Quote from: Herman on August 25, 2020, 10:18:39 AMThe GOP is America's Fascist party.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 25, 2020, 12:15:38 PMMore ot less.
(https://scx2.b-cdn.net/gfx/news/hires/2019/whydopeoplef.jpg)
The democratic party is America's Communist party.
Divisiveness is good.
Go team!
Quote from: greg on August 25, 2020, 01:05:14 PM
The democratic party is America's Communist party.
Divisiveness is good.
Go team!
Um, actually, America's communist party is the Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA). It was founded in 1919 and still exists. Do you have to work at sounding so ridiculously ill-informed? Or is it just a natural gift?
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 25, 2020, 01:26:21 PM
Um, actually, America's communist party is the Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA). It was founded in 1919 and still exists. Do you have to work at sounding so ridiculously ill-informed? Or is it just a natural gift?
Lol.
I guess you weren't gifted with the ability to pick up on sarcasm? :P
Quote from: greg on August 25, 2020, 02:11:14 PM
Lol.
I guess you weren't gifted with the ability to pick up on sarcasm? :P
I did not get the sarcasm either.
Any ways most of the rhetoric here is over my head.
Most of the time I have no idea who's on first.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 25, 2020, 02:26:01 PM
I did not get the sarcasm either.
Any ways most of the rhetoric here is over my head.
Most of the time I have no idea who's on first.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 25, 2020, 02:32:15 PM
Oh? Do Pelosi and Biden propose nationalization of Amazon and Apple? Because that would be communist. Even the most lefty members on the Democratic party aren't even close to communists, but instead are supporters of social democracy. The corporate Dems oppose medicare for all with dedication to protect the corporate intrests of their corporate overlords, the insurance companies and Big Pharma. That's crony capitalism, corporatism. The US has two major corporate parties. The other one just isn't as racist, fascist and detached from reality as the other one.
I see two more people have fallen in to my the hole I dug in the middle of the jungle...
hahaha, at this rate I shall have enough bodies to make a mountain that I can climb do finally reach the moon!
>:D
btw supposedly the US already has a fascist party:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party
or maybe there were two fascist parties all along?...........
???
I wonder if Todd is familiar with the concept of stochastic terrorism. :-\
Quote from: arpeggio on August 25, 2020, 02:26:01 PM
I did not get the sarcasm either.
Any ways most of the rhetoric here is over my head.
Most of the time I have no idea who's on first.
It's Trump sarcasm. The kind Trump trots out as an excuse when he says something irredeemably asinine.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 25, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
I wonder if Todd is familiar with the concept of stochastic terrorism. :-\
Goodness no. Please 'splain.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 25, 2020, 03:18:44 PM
It's Trump sarcasm. The kind Trump trots out as an excuse when he says something irredeemably asinine.
I also own a bunch of electric guitar pedals right next to me by brands you've never heard of.
Waaaaiiiiiiitt....
*peels off stickers of Earthquaker devices, Behringer, Boss, Electro-Harmonix, and a few others, and takes another look.
It says "Trump Industries Inc."!!!!!!! ???
aw, shucks, you caught me, everything about me is pro Trump! :-\
Oh, well, gotta go guys, the local Nazi party meeting is in an hour, see ya! :)
) And, perhaps most important of all, Trump made the mistakes that likely ended his presidency during the pandemic because he believed the feel-good narratives pushed by Fox News. In Fox News World, the pandemic was first "a hoax." Then it was erroneously conflated with the flu. Then, during some of the worst weeks of infection, a morning show host told Americans to get on airplanes. Finally, there were the weeks and weeks of endless support for hydroxychloroquine, an unproven drug that may actually be deadly for some patients. Because Trump believed Fox News World's encouraging depictions of the pandemic over the warnings of experts and scientists, he severely misjudged the seriousness of the crisis until it was too late. He reopened the economy prematurely too, after a steady drumbeat of opinion hosts pushed the idea on Fox News prime-time programming.
Yet in the real world, poll after poll has shown that Americans are sincerely worried about a pandemic that has killed more than 174,000 — and they want the president to follow expert medical advice rather than bashing the best infectious disease experts in the United States.
There has been plenty of commentary about how Trump's insatiable thirst for praise and attention has caused him to watch Fox News at all hours of the day. But that narcissism comes at a cost: He has begun to believe the narrative that has been handcrafted to make him feel better. Like a tinpot despot consuming state news and attending carefully orchestrated displays of fealty, Trump's steady diet of Fox News (complemented with a side of political rallies designed to make him feel like a political messiah) has warped his thinking. As a result, he continues to preach only to the converted — a much smaller part of the population than he realizes. (
The Coney Island freak show continues:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/25/rnc-speaker-pulled-from-schedule-after-she-tweeted-anti-semitic-conspiracy-thread.html
...The thread, which began in May from the unverified account @WarNuse, claimed "'The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion' Is Not A Fabrication. And, It Certainly Is Not Anti-Semetic [sic] To Point Out This Fact."...
And some more edifying news:
https://nypost.com/2020/08/25/jerry-falwell-jr-may-get-10-5-million-payout-from-liberty-university/
Describing how [he] felt after resigning to the News & Advance on Tuesday, Falwell quoted Martin Luther King Jr.
"It's a relief," Falwell said. "The quote that keeps going through my mind this morning is Martin Luther King Jr: 'Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty I'm free at last.' "
:laugh: :laugh: And that last ain't fake news! It's from Rupert Murdoch's NY Post!
Gee whiz, isn't Jerry Jr. at the RNC? Or at least the pool boy? ;D
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 25, 2020, 09:58:12 AM
Did you notice any delays prior to then...due to Covid? Or do you think that they all are due to the changes that he's made? Just trying to get an idea of 'before vs. after he was put in place'. I believe that he took over June 15th? Just curious as I know that shipments, like from Amazon have greatly increased, (see previous comments about that and delays, etc.). I very seldom order online these days myself. Very sorry, in any event, to hear of the delays in your area....particularly as far as medicine goes. Thankfully, as far as I can tell, things are o.k. here; then again, I don't normally watch closely as to how quickly certain things have arrived unless something is really late.
PD
You are correct. My observations are anecdotal and I have no proof. It may be the result of the Covid.
It is now August and the delays started to occur in June, 2020. In Virginia the Covid lock down started in March.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 25, 2020, 08:27:55 AM
Run by the big corporations at least... :-\
In Finland Amazon delivers nowhere. If I order something from Amazon, the package is delivered to me by Finnish postal service (Posti) or UPS. Sweden is getting it's dedicated Amazon in the near future and it remains to be seen what it means for Finnish customers.
Looking at the statistics Medicare and Medicaid both cover about 18 % of Americans. The rest 64 % of Americans are covered by private insurers or are uncovered (about 10 % before Trump & Covid-19 and about 20 % after Trump & Covid-19). The biggest insurer of Americans is the private sector as a whole. The total failure of the private sector to cover everybody has led to the need of Medicare and Medicaid programs and still millions of Americans lack healthcare in the richest country in the World. Pathetic, but that's what happens when corporations run a country.
I think they do what they can with the resources they have. What's the alternate? All those 36 % of Americans covered by Medicare and Medicaid without healthcare because they can't afford private coverage?
You can come up with a crappy "JBS's medicare for all" in your mind, but just know the left is not asking that kind of healtcare, but a single payer system all other developped countries have. Medicare for all would be build on the existing Medicare, but it would be much better, because of better funding (yes, those tax rises the right fearmongers about). All the healthcare resources (doctors, hospitals etc.) in the country would in the use of medicare for all. Suddenly you could go to any doctor or in any hospital because there would not be networks anymore, all of it without fear of massive healthcare bills.
You can't tell other people what labels they can use. It's my own business what labels I use. I use the label "corporate" for things that ARE corporate. I find it logical and consistent. Corporatism has it's place*, but when it's applied to things where it doesn't belong to and it causes problems/poor results I have no choice but to not like it.
* As I have told many times I am a supporter of social democracy which tries to combine the best aspects of capitalism and socialism. We "need" corporations such as Amazon, but as you yourself said, Amazon can't deliver in every rural area so we need "socialism" ( US Postal Service) to do the rest so that every American can order form Amazon.
If you knew as much about US politics as you think you do, you would know that MfA would never be properly funded, even if Bernie and every other progressive was shouting at full volume. You'd also know the point of Biden's public option is to get coverage to people who can't afford it. You'd also understand that just because an idea is good for "corporations" doesn't mean it's bad for the rest of us.
I could go on, but I'll leave off with the reminder there's a lot you don't know about how things work here.
Quote from: Todd on August 25, 2020, 03:26:13 PM
Goodness no. Please 'splain.
Stochastic terrorism means public demonization of a person or group of people resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted. These's nuts out there and some of them may do crazy things based on demonization of people (e.g. immigrants or muslims).
I suppose corporate media doesn't speak about these things. The lefties I follow do.
Quote from: JBS on August 25, 2020, 06:11:25 PM
If you knew as much about US politics as you think you do, you would know that MfA would never be properly funded, even if Bernie and every other progressive was shouting at full volume. You'd also know the point of Biden's public option is to get coverage to people who can't afford it. You'd also understand that just because an idea is good for "corporations" doesn't mean it's bad for the rest of us.
I could go on, but I'll leave off with the reminder there's a lot you don't know about how things work here.
What if I know more than I think? I suffer from low self-esteem (and your posts aren't helping) so it's possible I underestimate my knowledge.
How do you know MfA would be never be properly funded? Countries poorer than the US manage to properly funded their single payer healthcare systems. The only problem here is CORRUPTION! When corporations stop telling the politicians what to do thing become much easier. You raise the taxes the amount what is needed and that's it. Biden is walking back on public option and is now "expanding" ObamaCare. His donors must have panicked. Public option is better than the current system, but single payer is even better and should be the goal.
I have said thousand times: Capitalism works on some things, but not everywhere. That's why you should mix capitalism and socialism in optimal way (social democracy). Whenever capitalism works it's an example of something being good for BOTH corporations and the "rest of us." I feel like trying to teach calculus to a dog. I keep explaining the this stuff over and over again, but I don't see the light bulb going on... :-X
Quote from: 71 dB on August 25, 2020, 06:54:52 PM
Stochastic terrorism means public demonization of a person or group of people resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted. These's nuts out there and some of them may do crazy things based on demonization of people (e.g. immigrants or muslims).
I suppose corporate media doesn't speak about these things. The lefties I follow do.
Like, heavy, man.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 25, 2020, 06:54:52 PM
Stochastic terrorism means public demonization of a person or group of people resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted. These's nuts out there and some of them may do crazy things based on demonization of people (e.g. immigrants or muslims).
I suppose corporate media doesn't speak about these things. The lefties I follow do.
They do. But they don't use fancy terms that require a course in statistics to understand.
Quote
What if I know more than I think? I suffer from low self-esteem (and your posts aren't helping) so it's possible I underestimate my knowledge.
How do you know MfA would be never be properly funded? Countries poorer than the US manage to properly funded their single payer healthcare systems. The only problem here is CORRUPTION! When corporations stop telling the politicians what to do thing become much easier. You raise the taxes the amount what is needed and that's it. Biden is walking back on public option and is now "expanding" ObamaCare. His donors must have panicked. Public option is better than the current system, but single payer is even better and should be the goal.
I have said thousand times: Capitalism works on some things, but not everywhere. That's why you should mix capitalism and socialism in optimal way (social democracy). Whenever capitalism works it's an example of something being good for BOTH corporations and the "rest of us." I feel like trying to teach calculus to a dog. I keep explaining the this stuff over and over again, but I don't see the light bulb going on... :-X
As I said, if you knew as much as you think you do, you would know the truth is a lot more complicated than that.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 25, 2020, 06:54:52 PM
Stochastic terrorism means public demonization of a person or group of people resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted. These's nuts out there and some of them may do crazy things based on demonization of people (e.g. immigrants or muslims).
I suppose corporate media doesn't speak about these things. The lefties I follow do.
Our Finnish friend is exactly right about this. The prime example is the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre. Some loon heard and took seriously Trump's claim that Americans were dying in an immigrant invasion on the southern border, tracked down a Jewish congregation active in immigration and asylum cases to a synagogue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of my home town, and slaughtered innocent citizens there as a purported act of sell-defense. It was a completely unpredictable event in its specifics — it or something like it could have happened anywhere to any number of people or groups — but it was statistically probable that Trump's incitement would result in one or more such violent acts occurring somewhere in the range of his exhortations. Stochastic terrorism is a perfect term for this phenomenon.
Quote from: JBS on August 25, 2020, 07:38:25 PM
1) They do. But they don't use fancy terms that require a course in statistics to understand.
2) As I said, if you knew as much as you think you do, you would know the truth is a lot more complicated than that.
1) It's 2020, not 1978. You can google "fancy terms" in 5 seconds and educate yourself, that is if you have intellectual curiosity to do so.
2) Sure, what I write here is somewhat simplified, but I try to bring the essence of things out. Of course the question of what is good for corporations and what is good for the rest of us is nyanced.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 25, 2020, 09:16:10 PM
Our Finnish friend is exactly right about this. The prime example is the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre. Some loon heard and took seriously Trump's claim that Americans were dying in an immigrant invasion on the southern border, tracked down a Jewish congregation active in immigration and asylum cases to a synagogue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of my home town, and slaughtered innocent citizens there as a purported act of sell-defense. It was a completely unpredictable event in its specifics — it or something like it could have happened anywhere to any number of people or groups — but it was statistically probable that Trump's incitement would result in one or more such violent acts occurring somewhere in the range of his exhortations. Stochastic terrorism is a perfect term for this phenomenon.
Thanks! ;) Yes, I agree, "Stochastic terrorism" is an excellent term.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 26, 2020, 03:57:03 AM1) It's 2020, not 1978. You can google "fancy terms" in 5 seconds and educate yourself, that is if you have intellectual curiosity to do so.
And there it is. Five seconds of googling yields a GMG level of expertise. On every conceivable subject.
Quote from: Todd on August 26, 2020, 04:20:03 AM
And there it is. Five seconds of googling yields a GMG level of expertise. On every conceivable subject.
I don't think even 0,1 % of my US politics knowledge is from googling. I learned the term
stochasic terrorism watching Youtube videos by the likes of Kyle Kulinski and TYT. I don't need to google things I already know. I google things I don't know about, often things that have nothing to do with US politics, things I don't learn about watching Youtube videos. The last thing I googled was the populations of Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne because I was curious about how much smaller Canberra is compared to Sydney and Melbourne (~10 times smaller).
Lack of "expertise" isn't the problem here in my opinion. The problem with you Americans is you are so deeply "indoctrinated" to accept corporate lies it's shocking and even comical. Washington Post doesn't try to inform people accurately. Maybe 10 % of what WP writes is "good" honest journalism, the rest 90 % is done to shape the opinions of Americans to accept the continuation of the corporate status quo. Younger Americans in general are less indoctrinated and gather their information/view of the World from other sources than corporate media and it shows in their political opinions. They are hardly "experts", but they are "informed" and able to see what is going on in their country. They understand the corporate propaganda. They understand the need for real systemic change. They support progressives: Green new deal, medicare for all, free collage, ending the wars, living wage, legalizing marijuana, taking money out of politics and ending the corruption...
Quote from: 71 dB on August 26, 2020, 05:25:35 AMI learned the term stochasic terrorism watching Youtube videos
Of course you did. University of YouTube cranks out experts in every field.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 25, 2020, 09:16:10 PM
Our Finnish friend is exactly right about this. The prime example is the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre. Some loon heard and took seriously Trump's claim that Americans were dying in an immigrant invasion on the southern border, tracked down a Jewish congregation active in immigration and asylum cases to a synagogue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of my home town, and slaughtered innocent citizens there as a purported act of sell-defense. It was a completely unpredictable event in its specifics — it or something like it could have happened anywhere to any number of people or groups — but it was statistically probable that Trump's incitement would result in one or more such violent acts occurring somewhere in the range of his exhortations. Stochastic terrorism is a perfect term for this phenomenon.
My point was that he's wrong to say that the "corporate media" doesn't talk about it. They do. They say very clearly what is going on. But they don't need fancy terminology to do so.
And here's an incident that happened last night in Kenosha
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/26/us/kenosha-wisconsin-wednesday-shooting/index.html
Quote from: 71 dB on August 26, 2020, 05:25:35 AM
I don't think even 0,1 % of my US politics knowledge is from googling. I learned the term stochasic terrorism watching Youtube videos by the likes of Kyle Kulinski and TYT. I don't need to google things I already know. I google things I don't know about, often things that have nothing to do with US politics, things I don't learn about watching Youtube videos. The last thing I googled was the populations of Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne because I was curious about how much smaller Canberra is compared to Sydney and Melbourne (~10 times smaller).
Lack of "expertise" isn't the problem here in my opinion. The problem with you Americans is you are so deeply "indoctrinated" to accept corporate lies it's shocking and even comical. Washington Post doesn't try to inform people accurately. Maybe 10 % of what WP writes is "good" honest journalism, the rest 90 % is done to shape the opinions of Americans to accept the continuation of the corporate status quo. Younger Americans in general are less indoctrinated and gather their information/view of the World from other sources than corporate media and it shows in their political opinions. They are hardly "experts", but they are "informed" and able to see what is going on in their country. They understand the corporate propaganda. They understand the need for real systemic change. They support progressives: Green new deal, medicare for all, free collage, ending the wars, living wage, legalizing marijuana, taking money out of politics and ending the corruption...
No, it just means they fell for the same progressive propaganda you did.
Quote from: Todd on August 26, 2020, 05:27:54 AM
Of course you did. University of YouTube cranks out experts in every field.
Depends on
which channels you watch on Youtube. Watch Ben Shapiro and you become a moron. Watch Kyle Kulinski and you become supereducated. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 26, 2020, 05:38:50 AMDepends on which channels you watch on Youtube.
OK.
Quote from: JBS on August 26, 2020, 05:31:34 AM
No, it just means they fell for the same progressive propaganda you did.
You can call it "propaganda", because yes, the goal is to make people realize corporate Dems and Republicans are not their friends and are not working for them. It's positive propaganda, the goal is to make the society better, improve people's lives. If your country sucks and you want to improve it you look for the most successful countries in the World to see how to do things better. That's when you look at for example the Nordic countries and you see the secret is
social democracy. So, progressive propaganda is kind of stating the facts, but you can call it propaganda if you want. That's just a label. Getting those ideas implemeted is what counts. That's when everybody has healthcare without the fear of huge medical bills. That's when people have a living wage. That's when people can get educated despite of poor background and fulfil their American dream. That's when people have paid vacation by law.
Turns out that the Falwell Junior scandal has a connection to the Trump campaign. This clip from Stephen Colbert presents the whole mess in an entertaining way. The substance begins about 40 seconds in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f474duoaJcU
Tweet of the year?
Man's Message For Rioters Who Burned Down His Business
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNlm2sWQsh0
Maybe woke (white) people can see this is as a new way to virtue signal? If they burn down their own homes for BLM, then they will show others that they are the most woke people ever!
The vast majority of the Democrats I know do not approve of the looting. Just because we understand why does not mean we approve. Another example of accusing all Democrats of being guilty of something they are not. Like accusing all Democrats of being agnostic or atheist when most are actually people of faith.
I just saw an interview on TV of a women who is voting for Trump. When the reporter asked her why she said that Trump made her feel safe. Safe from what she would not elaborate. I think it would be safe to assume it is not the Russians. I do not dare say what because conservatives would accuse me of being presumptuous.
When seeing the interviews of people who are voting for Trump is seems to me that it would be impossible to discuss with them the pros and cons of his administration. As far they are concern there are no cons. And they automatically assume that we all think Biden is perfect. Just look at the debate between the liberals here concerning Biden. One of the advantages that conservatives have over liberals is they are unified in thinking Trump is perfect and Biden is senile.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 26, 2020, 08:55:22 AM
When seeing the interviews of people who are voting for Trump is seems to me that it would be impossible to discuss with them the pros and cons of his administration. As far they are concern there are no cons.
Similarly, they're "what lies?" rationalizers.
Quote from: JBS on August 26, 2020, 05:29:36 AM
My point was that he's wrong to say that the "corporate media" doesn't talk about it. They do. They say very clearly what is going on. But they don't need fancy terminology to do so.
No. The "it" the corporate media talks about in these cases isn't the same "it" captured by the term stochastic terrorism. The term isn't "fancy" and superfluous, as you're suggesting, it does semantic work. What the media talks about is a seemingly random act of violence by a crazed "lone wolf," while raising the question of whether the possible inciter of the act is culpable in some way for the outcome. In this view there is one terrorist and an unaffiliated possibly unwitting inciter. The term stochastic terrorism accomplishes something different. It characterizes the inciter as a participant in the terrorist act; There are two terrorists and the inciter is implicated. If the term were applied to the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre, for example, then Trump would be understood to be one of the terrorists.
Note: I'm not making an argument that Trump is a terrorist, I'm just showing that using the term stochastic terrorism frames cases of this kind differently than the standard mainstream media treatment does.
This is great.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 26, 2020, 05:57:20 AM
You can call it "propaganda", because yes, the goal is to make people realize corporate Dems and Republicans are not their friends and are not working for them. It's positive propaganda, the goal is to make the society better, improve people's lives. If your country sucks and you want to improve it you look for the most successful countries in the World to see how to do things better. That's when you look at for example the Nordic countries and you see the secret is social democracy. So, progressive propaganda is kind of stating the facts, but you can call it propaganda if you want. That's just a label. Getting those ideas implemeted is what counts. That's when everybody has healthcare without the fear of huge medical bills. That's when people have a living wage. That's when people can get educated despite of poor background and fulfil their American dream. That's when people have paid vacation by law.
In other words, Utopia.
You have a very large and unexamined premise there: that progressive policy ideas are the best way to achieve those goals.
Most of the time they aren't.
You also have a very flawed premise that what Kulinski et al tell you is full of facts. It's not. Which is why it is appropriate to call it propaganda and appropriate to say you are one of its dupes.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 26, 2020, 03:08:06 PM
No. The "it" the corporate media talks about in these cases isn't the same "it" captured by the term stochastic terrorism. The term isn't "fancy" and superfluous, as you're suggesting, it does semantic work. What the media talks about is a seemingly random act of violence by a crazed "lone wolf," while raising the question of whether the possible inciter of the act is culpable in some way for the outcome. In this view there is one terrorist and an unaffiliated possibly unwitting inciter. The term stochastic terrorism accomplishes something different. It characterizes the inciter as a participant in the terrorist act; There are two terrorists and the inciter is implicated. If the term were applied to the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre, for example, then Trump would be understood to be one of the terrorists.
Note: I'm not making an argument that Trump is a terrorist, I'm just showing that using the term stochastic terrorism frames cases of this kind differently than the standard mainstream media treatment does.
No.
Since I have heard the media discuss the link between the incitement and the act of terror, and make it plain there is a link, I can firmly say you're wrong. You can discuss it without resorting to a fancy term.
The Kenosha shooter is another example, with every one rushing to show him at the front row of a recent Trump rally. Unfortunately they're pointing to the wrong inciter. The incitement is by the gun culture, led by but not confined to the NRA, which preaches that it's fine to shoot to protect property, that it's fine to treat potential robbers and looters as subhuman, that armed citizens ready to shoot on sight are the best defense against crime. That's what formed the ideas in the head of the the shooter last night.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 25, 2020, 09:16:10 PM
Our Finnish friend is exactly right about this. The prime example is the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre. Some loon heard and took seriously Trump's claim that Americans were dying in an immigrant invasion on the southern border, tracked down a Jewish congregation active in immigration and asylum cases to a synagogue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of my home town, and slaughtered innocent citizens there as a purported act of sell-defense. It was a completely unpredictable event in its specifics — it or something like it could have happened anywhere to any number of people or groups — but it was statistically probable that Trump's incitement would result in one or more such violent acts occurring somewhere in the range of his exhortations. Stochastic terrorism is a perfect term for this phenomenon.
Since the GOP appears to have embraced the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (via the bizarre QAnon, which I originally dismissed as beyond the lunatic fringe but now appears just asinine enough to get a big following in this nation of crazed morons), I fear we will see more incidents of that nature.
Quote from: JBS on August 26, 2020, 05:04:02 PM
In other words, Utopia.
Utopia, utopia utopia. Many countries have this stuff! We know it's doable. Progressives aren't idiots proposing stuff that can't be done. The US is the richest country in the World. If poor Slovenia can do quality free education so can the US! In the patriotic speaches the US can do anything, except if it's improving people's lives, no can do. Pathetic! And you are beyond pathetic yourself for believing all the corporate "utopia" bs. They are serving the top 1 %. Can't you just understand that already? I'm so tired with you. Explaning the same basic stuff over and over again... Jeesus Christ!
Quote from: JBS on August 26, 2020, 05:04:02 PMYou have a very large and unexamined premise there: that progressive policy ideas are the best way to achieve those goals.
Most of the time they aren't.
You have better ideas? I am all ears. We know empirically what works best. Other countries do a lot of things better than the US. You can cry about it or improve your own country to do better.
Quote from: JBS on August 26, 2020, 05:04:02 PMYou also have a very flawed premise that what Kulinski et al tell you is full of facts. It's not. Which is why it is appropriate to call it propaganda and appropriate to say you are one of its dupes.
Kyle Kulinski tries to use correct facts. Sometimes facts are hard to get, but that means nobody else have the facts either. Has he been wrong? Yes, we all are sometimes, but he admits it and corrects it. He wants to be correct and honest. He is just that kind of guy. It's not my or his fault if you refuse to see it because of ideological differencies.
I want tump out but I worry the implacability and irrationality of the left might just get tump elected again. I'm looking at tump-Biden tied in Minnesota which just seems crazy to me - knowing the state as well as I thought I did. Wisconsin is in play too. On the one hand, I've been assuming Biden would win Pennsylvania and that tump can't really win without it. On the other other hand, Minnesota and Wisconsin were always shoe-ins for Dems. Now they're not.
It's not just that I, even while being in the left, sometimes disagree with them, it's that no debate is possible; if you disagree with the left, you will be pilloried and accused of the worst motives or even cancelled. Dems have taken on sort of right-wing tactics.
Here's what you are not allowed to consider: African-American guy (who happens to have a warrant on him for serious crimes) shot by police in Kenosha refuses to comply with police orders and reaches into his truck.
You're not allowed to ask if he might not be at least partially responsible given his rash and dangerous refusal to comply with police orders?
Isn't it dangerously foolish (and probably criminal) to refuse to comply with police? It doesn't mean he deserved to get shot but that's what police are going to do.
Was it racist? I'm not ruling it in or out but, generally, I think you might get shot in this situation either way.
White kid with gun - part of a militia supposedly defending businesses during Kenosha riots. Personally, I don't like militias or guns and think whoever gave this kid a gun should be in trouble - considering his age. But, video shows it's really possible he shot people in self-defense. Looking at the video, at least one of his "victims" was armed with a drawn gun and you can see people rushing him before he shot them. He gave himself up willingly (despite the meme accusing police of treating him favorable because he's white).
There's a good chance he will be exonerated if it comes to a trial just as the officers in Wisconsin and Atlanta. That will lead to more riots and strikes, etc.
You're generally not allowed to at least ask consider these kinds of points these days. It makes you a terrible person. Now, I could be wrong about these considerations. But it's not irrational to consider them and it doesn't make you a terrible person either.
I'm not assuming the points I raised are true but the left-leaning press has already been convinced that the people in question are guilty and social media is calling for their immediate execution. The NBA strikes over this - not even considering that the shooting was inevitable under the circumstances. This is hysteria.
I don't see these problems getting better, mainly because wealth disparities and criminality and gun proliferation are not going to be alleviated. The left is brainwashed that white supremacy is the cause and BLM proposes a host of off-the-wall policies that even Kamala Harris has no intention of delivering (forget Biden).
Making things better probably involves dialogue and reckoning about about the causes of poverty and about what it takes to raise the poorest people up.
Critical theory, intersectionality, woke-politics, are just going to make people angrier and lead to more pointless anger and division.
Furthermore, the rage and divisiveness and irrationality and meanness of the left might just get tump re-elected.
The crazy thing is that if one follows German news and mainly headlines, brief articles or what would be covered in 5-10 min news radio broadcasts at the full hour, one gets the message the Blake was shot in the back by several policemen. And maybe that his little kids were on the backseat One really has to dig to find out that there was a warrant, an unsuccessful attempt to taser and the probability that Blake was reaching for weapon in his truck (now it seems that he did have a knife in the truck). So just going by full hour news one gets the message that policemen shot unarmed harmless black guy in the back for no reason at all (except the silently implied racist police brutality) while his kids had to watch. It's absolutely incredible.
Quote from: Dowder on August 26, 2020, 09:53:27 PM
Acknowledge the religious heritage of this country.
Heritage is heritage. Then there is the constitution which says in the first Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.Careful reading of the first Amendment reveals five liberties it protects:
- freedom of religion
- freedom of speech
- freedom of press
- freedom of petition
- freedom of assembly
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2020, 01:08:33 AM
The crazy thing is that if one follows German news and mainly headlines, brief articles or what would be covered in 5-10 min news radio broadcasts at the full hour, one gets the message the Blake was shot in the back by several policemen. And maybe that his little kids were on the backseat One really has to dig to find out that there was a warrant, an unsuccessful attempt to taser and the probability that Blake was reaching for weapon in his truck (now it seems that he did have a knife in the truck). So just going by full hour news one gets the message that policemen shot unarmed harmless black guy in the back for no reason at all (except the silently implied racist police brutality) while his kids had to watch. It's absolutely incredible.
I'm just flabbergasted by this. I can't believe how far things have gone that one simply can't consider the facts at hand. I saw people bringing up some of these questions in FB posts and the response was vicious. I see this even on my friends' posts. If one dares to question any of it the response is wild and rabid. There literally is no talking about it. It cannot be discussed. There's a mob out there and they're irrational, hysterical and vengeful. And I can see why a bunch of people outside the left's sphere, people out there in fly-over territory, would vote red. Not too long ago I laughed at right wingers who jeered at Hollywood and the mainstream press and CNN, etc. Now I find myself at least a little sympathetic.
I never would have said this a few years back but, if tump wins, and I hope he doesn't, I'll take a little comfort in seeing these people afflicted and anguished because they deserve a wake-up call. I fear nothing will help.
I honestly think they make everything worse. I hope tump goes. I generally support left-of-center policy. But woke-ism is going to lead to bad outcomes. It's going to get worse.
Quote from: Dowder on August 26, 2020, 09:48:52 PM
The dude in Pittsburgh hated Trump for being a Zionist. You seriously need to stfu.
A few dudes here and there hating Trump doesn't mean all dudes hate him.
Trump is not the only instigator of stochastic terrorism in the country.
There is also nutjobs such as Alex Jones and Rush Limbaugh.
Quote from: milk on August 27, 2020, 03:05:18 AM
I'm just flabbergasted by this. I can't believe how far things have gone that one simply can't consider the facts at hand. I saw people bringing up some of these questions in FB posts and the response was vicious. I see this even on my friends' posts. If one dares to question any of it the response is wild and rabid. There literally is no talking about it. It cannot be discussed. There's a mob out there and they're irrational, hysterical and vengeful. And I can see why a bunch of people outside the left's sphere, people out there in fly-over territory, would vote red. Not too long ago I laughed at right wingers who jeered at Hollywood and the mainstream press and CNN, etc. Now I find myself at least a little sympathetic.
I never would have said this a few years back but, if tump wins, and I hope he doesn't, I'll take a little comfort in seeing these people afflicted and anguished because they deserve a wake-up call. I fear nothing will help.
I honestly think they make everything worse. I hope tump goes. I generally support left-of-center policy. But woke-ism is going to lead to bad outcomes. It's going to get worse.
The left is divided into fractions. Some on the left are about improving people's lives/the country by fighting for medicare for all, free college etc. while some on the left seem to be on the left mainly for virtual signaling and woke-ism. Kyle Kulinski belongs to the first group and criticizes the latter one quite a lot.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2020, 01:08:33 AM
The crazy thing is that if one follows German news and mainly headlines, brief articles or what would be covered in 5-10 min news radio broadcasts at the full hour, one gets the message the Blake was shot in the back by several policemen. And maybe that his little kids were on the backseat One really has to dig to find out that there was a warrant, an unsuccessful attempt to taser and the probability that Blake was reaching for weapon in his truck (now it seems that he did have a knife in the truck). So just going by full hour news one gets the message that policemen shot unarmed harmless black guy in the back for no reason at all (except the silently implied racist police brutality) while his kids had to watch. It's absolutely incredible.
It is worse in the US.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2020, 01:08:33 AM
The crazy thing is that if one follows German news and mainly headlines, brief articles or what would be covered in 5-10 min news radio broadcasts at the full hour, one gets the message the Blake was shot in the back by several policemen. And maybe that his little kids were on the backseat One really has to dig to find out that there was a warrant, an unsuccessful attempt to taser and the probability that Blake was reaching for weapon in his truck (now it seems that he did have a knife in the truck). So just going by full hour news one gets the message that policemen shot unarmed harmless black guy in the back for no reason at all (except the silently implied racist police brutality) while his kids had to watch. It's absolutely incredible.
I found it easy to find a factual, seemingly unbiased account of the incident in the U.S. Police were called because Blake was apparently violating a protection order brought by a female. There was also a warrant out for him but I found no information on what the warrant was for. The police were correctly dispatched to address the situation. Blake was uncooperative and was tazed. The tazer was ineffective. He walked around his car and was described as reaching into it through the driver's door. At that point one officer who was attempting to restrain him shot him seven times in the back. Officers state that a knife was found on the floorboard on that side. I think that's what's known. I believe this information is available for anyone who looks.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 27, 2020, 05:12:28 AM
I found it easy to find a factual, seemingly unbiased account of the incident in the U.S. Police were called because Blake was apparently violating a protection order brought by a female. There was also a warrant out for him but I found no information on what the warrant was for. The police were correctly dispatched to address the situation. Blake was uncooperative and was tazed. The tazer was ineffective. He walked around his car and was described as reaching into it through the driver's door. At that point one officer who was attempting to restrain him shot him seven times in the back. Officers state that a knife was found on the floorboard on that side. I think that's what's known. I believe this information is available for anyone who looks.
This is quite probably correct. And this is the information we got both in Belgium and the Netherlands. I didn't check French or German TV.
A video was shown: even before Blake was able to fully bend over, he was shot. 7 times.
Quote from: pjme on August 27, 2020, 05:36:40 AM
This is quite probably correct. And this is the information we got both in Belgium and the Netherlands. I didn't check French or German TV.
A video was shown: even before Blake was able to fully bend over, he was shot. 7 times.
I hadn't seen the video and shouldn't have commented before I did. Four officers are unable to restrain a man who isn't agitated and who is visibly limping? Instead of restraining him, they allow him to walk around the car and they draw their firearms. At that point their only option is the threat of deadly force. It looked to me like Blake wanted to get into the car and drive off with the kids. Wow.
Milk, it would help (also for yourself) if you stopped using the word "mob" for people whom you fear don't share your view.
Your question whether the police would have shot a guy in the back several times if he were white is self-evident. No, chances are they wouldn't have done that.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 27, 2020, 05:12:28 AM
I found it easy to find a factual, seemingly unbiased account of the incident in the U.S. Police were called because Blake was apparently violating a protection order brought by a female. There was also a warrant out for him but I found no information on what the warrant was for. The police were correctly dispatched to address the situation. Blake was uncooperative and was tazed. The tazer was ineffective. He walked around his car and was described as reaching into it through the driver's door. At that point one officer who was attempting to restrain him shot him seven times in the back. Officers state that a knife was found on the floorboard on that side. I think that's what's known. I believe this information is available for anyone who looks.
Seeking facts from news reports isn't hard if you aren't afflicted with "bias bias".
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 06:16:07 AM
Milk, it would help (also for yourself) if you stopped using the word "mob" for people whom you fear don't share your view.
Your question whether the police would have shot a guy in the back several times if he were white is self-evident. No, chances are they wouldn't have done that.
In fact the kid who shot several people in Kenosha just walked the streets with a semi-automatic on his hip, and patrol cars just let him walk because he was white. The NYT has put up the video material.
https://www.youtube.com/v/EF4KcunfvCg
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 06:16:07 AM
Milk, it would help (also for yourself) if you stopped using the word "mob" for people whom you fear don't share your view.
Your question whether the police would have shot a guy in the back several times if he were white is self-evident. No, chances are they wouldn't have done that.
I don't believe you because I KNOW if somehow it weren't "self-evident" and you thought Blake MIGHT have been going for a knife you wouldn't broadcast it on social media. I KNOW you'd be darn careful about who you said THAT to. So, I don't believe you.
Let me quote a Facebook conversation I saw today in which a woman expressed in some comments the opinion that perhaps Blake was erratic and had already been tased and was reaching into his vehicle. Yes everybody in the comments insisted that she is a psychopath and racist and insane.
Here's the quote:
"I hope you get shot."
Not a mob you say? Before you tell me there are nasty comments on all sides on Facebook, think about how you definitely wouldn't express that opinion if you came to share it. You'd fear to say it.
BTW, I'm not saying racism wasn't involved. I don't know. I'm not in the heads of the police. Self-evident means it cannot be questioned. The very act of questioning is malevolent. I feel like I'm heading for a Kafka trap.
For those interested, the Wikipedia page is interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jacob_Blake (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jacob_Blake)
Fed adopts average inflation target, elevates focus on jobs (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-jacksonhole/fed-adopts-average-inflation-target-elevates-focus-on-jobs-idUSKBN25N0HM)
Money printer go BRRR.
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 07:36:25 AM
In fact the kid who shot several people in Kenosha just walked the streets with a semi-automatic on his hip, and patrol cars just let him walk because he was white. The NYT has put up the video material.
I saw some of the video. Maybe, maybe not. I've no idea if that's why they let him. There are open carry laws and there have been open-carry marches by Black groups, though it's definitely not as common as the right-wing militias. I wouldn't rule out that cops have that bias; they shouldn't. But that video is a pretty horrific scene. First of all, a 17 year old should not be carrying a gun around. Second of all, it does look like he was being attacked. It's unclear if he instigated the attack by firing first or if people decided to attack him. One of the people that got shot by him also had a gun and there appears to be gun fire from lots of directions.
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 07:36:25 AM
In fact the kid who shot several people in Kenosha just walked the streets with a semi-automatic on his hip, and patrol cars just let him walk because he was white. The NYT has put up the video material.
Wisconsin has an open carry law, but not for people under 18. So the shooter was illegally carrying the weapon.
As for the racial issue: I'd imagine African Americans openly carrying are stopped or challenged at a vastly higher rate than whites, but I've only seen anecdotal evidence for this, like videos shot by people testing the law.
It really does not matter who started it.
Because of the gun culture here it was only a matter of time before gun fights between the sides broke out.
I have to criticize the attitude of some conservatives. The more radical conservatives love to walk around brandishing their guns. At times it seems that they do not realize that the other side has guns too. You shoot at someone who has a gun do not be surprised if they shoot back.
Quote from: milk on August 27, 2020, 07:41:04 AM
Not a mob you say?
Yes, I said it is not a great idea to call people who don't share your views "mob".
It's dehumanizing. What appears to be a mob to you, actually consists of any number of individuals.
I'm not expecting you go and talk to every one of these people, but it doesn't help to dehumanize them. Although it may make you feel good about yourself, I don't know.
Telling someone (me in this case) who tries to engage you right off the cuff "I don't believe you", isn't a great move either.
The word hooligan does not deprive the individual being so described of either agency or humanity. The word "mob" is indeed vile. It has been written on GMG. It is therefore so. So instead, the phrase "band of hooligans" should be adopted henceforth.
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 06:16:07 AM
Milk, it would help (also for yourself) if you stopped using the word "mob" for people whom you fear don't share your view.
Your question whether the police would have shot a guy in the back several times if he were white is self-evident. No, chances are they wouldn't have done that.
Sure...
much less odds if he were white...
police are hesitant to shoot white people?
Quote from: greg on August 08, 2020, 04:42:24 PM
It's hard to make a 100% judgement based on this because of the censor blur, but based on what I can tell, they shot the guy within seconds after he answered the door.
He did have a gun, but didn't look like he was pointing it (hard to tell from the blur). He was trying to put it down, that much you can see.
I heard that he had it due to burglars in the area (anyone could say they are "Phoenix Police", then step away from the peephole so they aren't visible, and then ambush them, so he tried to put the gun away but wasn't given a chance).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49P9TuFLOQ
But there will be no large-scale protests about this. This isn't going to broadcast repeatedly on CNN (seems they haven't ran a story about it, which is probably why I didn't hear about this until now).
Why? Because he's white. Seems there is more profit in race baiting rather than police brutality, maybe?
The police arrived because it was a noise complaint (arguing and playing Crash Bandicoot too loud, which is a bit weird since it's not a very loud game). I mean, the "Road to Nowhere" level is hard enough to make you scream at top volume, of course, but getting murdered for it? Nah...
Just one example.
A similar example happened in the town I used to live in... it's not an uncommon occurrence.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 27, 2020, 08:21:11 AM
It really does not matter who started it.
Because of the gun culture here it was only a matter of time before gun fights between the sides broke out.
I have to criticize the attitude of some conservatives. The more radical conservatives love to walk around brandishing their guns. At time it seems that they do not realize that the other side has guns too. You shoot at someone who has a gun do not be surprised if they shoot back.
This is true.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 27, 2020, 03:16:36 AM
The left is divided into fractions. Some on the left are about improving people's lives/the country by fighting for medicare for all, free college etc. while some on the left seem to be on the left mainly for virtual signaling and woke-ism. Kyle Kulinski belongs to the first group and criticizes the latter one quite a lot.
Absolutely.
The first, I think, has mostly genuinely good intentions. The second are highly likely to be wolves in sheep clothing. There was a scientific study done recently linking virtue signaling/woke-ism to psychopathic traits. And if you get down to it, they believe all of the same stuff that racists believe in, with the only exception being white=bad instead of white=good.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2020, 01:08:33 AM
The crazy thing is that if one follows German news and mainly headlines, brief articles or what would be covered in 5-10 min news radio broadcasts at the full hour, one gets the message the Blake was shot in the back by several policemen. And maybe that his little kids were on the backseat One really has to dig to find out that there was a warrant, an unsuccessful attempt to taser and the probability that Blake was reaching for weapon in his truck (now it seems that he did have a knife in the truck). So just going by full hour news one gets the message that policemen shot unarmed harmless black guy in the back for no reason at all (except the silently implied racist police brutality) while his kids had to watch. It's absolutely incredible.
Looks like the whole world's news media has caught on that ragebait is the most profitable bait.
Quote from: Todd on August 27, 2020, 08:39:49 AM
The word hooligan does not deprive the individual being so described of either agency or humanity. The word "mob" is indeed vile. It has been written on GMG. It is therefore so. So instead, the phrase "band of hooligans" should be adopted henceforth.
;D
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 08:33:35 AM
Yes, I said it is not a great idea to call people who don't share your views "mob".
It's dehumanizing. What appears to be a mob to you, actually consists of any number of individuals.
I'm not expecting you go and talk to every one of these people, but it doesn't help to dehumanize them. Although it may make you feel good about yourself, I don't know.
Telling someone (me in this case) who tries to engage you right off the cuff "I don't believe you", isn't a great move either.
I just think you're gaslighting. As I said, I don't believe you. Maybe you really cannot see how condescending your last comment directed at me was. Who knows? There are all kinds of people here. But, no, I don't believe you'd see people as anything other than a mob were the tables turned. That's why you ignored my hypothetical. I'm very open-minded myself (and I'm still on the left). I'm thankful I don't need your advice on how to help myself dude.
Quote from: Todd on August 27, 2020, 08:39:49 AM
The word hooligan does not deprive the individual being so described of either agency or humanity. The word "mob" is indeed vile. It has been written on GMG. It is therefore so. So instead, the phrase "band of hooligans" should be adopted henceforth.
;D
I'm with you!
(https://i.imgur.com/ZOqrNY0.jpg)
Quote from: milk on August 27, 2020, 08:40:53 AM
I just think you're gaslighting. As I said, I don't believe you.
Well, nothing I can do about this, it's no use arguing in a topic that's under constant troll & heckler attack.
) "I think he views it as a political benefit," Biden said of Trump in an interview with MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell on Thursday afternoon. He added: "He just keeps pouring fuel on the fire. This is his America now."
Earlier Thursday, White House counselor Kellyanne Conway suggested in an interview on "Fox & Friends" that the unrest has drawn a contrast between Trump's leadership and a potential Biden presidency. She argued, in part, "the more chaos and anarchy and vandalism and violence reigns, the better it is for the very clear choice on who's best on public safety and law and order."
During the MSNBC interview, Biden read Conway's words aloud and asked: "When has a spokesperson for a president ever said something like that? Ever?" (
Quote from: greg on August 27, 2020, 08:40:27 AM
Absolutely.
The first, I think, has mostly genuinely good intentions. The second are highly likely to be wolves in sheep clothing. There was a scientific study done recently linking virtue signaling/woke-ism to psychopathic traits. And if you get down to it, they believe all of the same stuff that racists believe in, with the only exception being white=bad instead of white=good.
You don't see me talk about quotas for black actors in movies. In fact I am so tired of Disney's SJW-BS I have no interest in seeing Star Wars Ep. 9 and I used to be a huge Star Wars fan when Lucas was in control. Racism is fought other ways. Legalizing Marijuana would help a lot. Free college would help a lot. Changing the police culture would help a lot. Social democracy would strenghten the social contract (which is in very bad shape in the US) and increase equality and increase mutual trust among people. It's about addressing economic injustice.
As for virtue signalers having psychopathic traits that's something I haven't heard before, but it is interesting. Another problem is that the right can easily weaponize these woke principles against the left. For example fake allegations of sexual harrashment can make lefty organisations widthdraw their support for the candidate targeted. Right-wingers has an advantage in this: They don't care at all it THEIR candidate is a monster or not as long as he/she is THEIR candidate, THEIR monster.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 27, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
I am so tired of Disney's SJW-BS I have no interest in seeing Star Wars Ep. 9
Um...what??
Quote from: 71 dB on August 27, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
You don't see me talk about quotas for black actors in movies. In fact I am so tired of Disney's SJW-BS I have no interest in seeing Star Wars Ep. 9 and I used to be a huge Star Wars fan when Lucas was in control. Racism is fought other ways. Legalizing Marijuana would help a lot. Free college would help a lot. Changing the police culture would help a lot. Social democracy would strenghten the social contract (which is in very bad shape in the US) and increase equality and increase mutual trust among people. It's about addressing economic injustice.
100% agree.
Less using resources for harmless crimes, more using them towards helpful ones, please.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 27, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
As for virtue signalers having psychopathic traits that's something I haven't heard before, but it is interesting. Another problem is that the right can easily weaponize these woke principles against the left. For example fake allegations of sexual harrashment can make lefty organisations widthdraw their support for the candidate targeted. Right-wingers has an advantage in this: They don't care at all it THEIR candidate is a monster or not as long as he/she is THEIR candidate, THEIR monster.
Huh, yeah, I could see that scenario happening. Both sides have to be playing the same game- either consider moral character important or not.
As for the psychopathic traits, it makes since if you compare it to a virus. Which ones are the most successful?
The ones that stay in the host body for a long time before they are spread, so they are easily spread. Killing the host quickly would mean not being able to jump to the next. Also spreading without physical contact is very beneficial. So in a real life scenario, you will hang out with family members that appear healthy, not even touching them, and will get the virus.
Likewise, if you tell people about your unpopular ideology in a straightforward manner, you will get instant backlash and it will die. You have to give a little in order to get it all. That is the law of anything, regardless if it is good or bad. The mask is there to look like a healthy family member, when really they are a sick person who will get you killed by going near them.
Seems this live CNN interview didn't go quite as planned...
Jacob Blake's parents are disgusted by the BLM riots across America, expresses respect for Trump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufSn2b9glw
Quote from: 71 dB on August 27, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
You don't see me talk about quotas for black actors in movies. In fact I am so tired of Disney's SJW-BS I have no interest in seeing Star Wars Ep. 9 and I used to be a huge Star Wars fan when Lucas was in control. Racism is fought other ways. Legalizing Marijuana would help a lot. Free college would help a lot. Changing the police culture would help a lot. Social democracy would strenghten the social contract (which is in very bad shape in the US) and increase equality and increase mutual trust among people. It's about addressing economic injustice.
As for virtue signalers having psychopathic traits that's something I haven't heard before, but it is interesting. Another problem is that the right can easily weaponize these woke principles against the left. For example fake allegations of sexual harrashment can make lefty organisations widthdraw their support for the candidate targeted. Right-wingers has an advantage in this: They don't care at all it THEIR candidate is a monster or not as long as he/she is THEIR candidate, THEIR monster.
A somewhat perverse and jaundiced view of the world but, sadly, all too typical of the Left.
Quote from: Christabel on August 27, 2020, 08:30:06 PM
A somewhat perverse and jaundiced view of the world but, sadly, all too typical of the Left.
To be fair, the GOP voted for Donald tump. Here's the joke: for President of the United States! That's pretty bad. My friend showed me a meme his aunt posted of tump with Jesus' hand on his back. That's pretty bad.
Quote from: milk on August 27, 2020, 07:53:30 AM
First of all, a 17 year old should not be carrying a gun around. Second of all, it does look like he was being attacked. It's unclear if he instigated the attack by firing first or if people decided to attack him. One of the people that got shot by him also had a gun and there appears to be gun fire from lots of directions.
"It does look like he was being attacked".
Yeah, he was attacked because people were trying to stop and disarm a serial killer, because the cops weren't doing it. That's why, it's not unclear at all. This is a kid who travelled all the way to Kenosha because he'd looked in the mirror that morning and decided it was time for him to use that AR15 at last and kill some people, and use the "protect business" euphemism.
There is really no dispute over the many ways he was breaking the law.
There was some discussion about 71B's use of the term "stochastic terrorism" recently. Although I don't find it terribly useful to talk this way, the Ritterhouse case just happens to be a perfect example of this thing. A guy, a kid in fact, who feels there is such a institutional goodwill towards people who shoot into groups of people that are casually described as "left-wing mob" that he happily walks towards a bunch of patrol cars, having just killed two guys, confident the cops will just let him go, because all he did was kill some out of control skaters.
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 11:22:36 PM
"It does look like he was being attacked".
Yeah, he was attacked because people were trying to stop and disarm a serial killer, because the cops weren't doing it. That's why, it's not unclear at all. This is a kid who travelled all the way to Kenosha because he'd looked in the mirror that morning and decided it was time for him to use that AR15 at last and kill some people, and use the "protect business" euphemism.
There is really no dispute over the many ways he was breaking the law.
There was some discussion about 71B's use of the term "stochastic terrorism" recently. Although I don't find it terribly useful to talk this way, the Ritterhouse case just happens to be a perfect example of this thing. A guy, a kid in fact, who feels there is such a institutional goodwill towards people who shoot into groups of people that are casually described as "left-wing mob" that he happily walks towards a bunch of patrol cars, having just killed two guys, confident the cops will just let him go, because all he did was kill some out of control skaters.
kids should have better things to do than march around with guns. One of the people he shot had a gun and a criminal record too.
Minnesota and Wisconsin tied in the polls? If tump wins this I know who I'll blame.
Inspiring speech everyone should hear!
https://www.youtube.com/v/h7VMz4M1WWU&t=55s
Quote from: Christabel on August 27, 2020, 08:30:06 PM
A somewhat perverse and jaundiced view of the world but, sadly, all too typical of the Left.
Perverse? What? Bitter and cynical perhaps, but perverse? I'm afraid if you find a perverse view of the world it's on the right.
Quote from: Herman on August 27, 2020, 11:22:36 PM
The Ritterhouse case just happens to be a perfect example of this thing [stochastic terrorism]. A guy, a kid in fact, who feels there is such a institutional goodwill towards people who shoot into groups of people that are casually described as "left-wing mob" that he happily walks towards a bunch of patrol cars, having just killed two guys, confident the cops will just let him go, because all he did was kill some out of control skaters.
Yes, a perfect example. That is stochastic terrorism.
Stochastic terrorism meets serial killer. Perhaps the great novel of the 21st Century will result from recent events.
Just hope prospective readers don't possess more than a degree from Google or YouTube.
Quote from: milk on August 28, 2020, 01:34:48 AM
One of the people he shot had a gun and a criminal record too.
One was a child molester and another has multiple counts of domestic violence/strangulation/use of a dangerous weapon.
The Nick Sandmann lawyer is going to represent him, so probably a huge positive for him.
Quote from: greg on August 28, 2020, 07:17:43 AM
One was a child molester and another has multiple counts of domestic violence/strangulation/use of a dangerous weapon.
The Nick Sandmann lawyer is going to represent him, so probably a huge positive for him.
Source?
Quote from: greg on August 28, 2020, 07:17:43 AM
One was a child molester and another has multiple counts of domestic violence/strangulation/use of a dangerous weapon.
Looks like you're getting this false info from the right-wing propaganda machine.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-shooting-kenosha-what-we-know-victims/5654579002/
These profiles mention nothing of the filth you are ghoulishly spreading about folks whose bodies are still warm. I'm awaiting your accusations of having a left-wing mentality for even daring to post a usa today link.
and FYI, even if you meet a guy at night who has a record with justice, this does not provide you with a license to kill (Milk seemed to suggest something like that, too: "One of the people he shot had a gun and a criminal record too.")
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 28, 2020, 07:57:54 AM
Source?
You're not going to find it from the mainstream media stories.
Even the gofundme for Kyle was taken down and replaced by an obituary of Anthony Huber.
There's also a video on twitter of Josept yelling at them, daring them to shoot him. He got shot.
There's a lot of sources, just google their names and "sex offender" or "criminal record" and there's screenshots in multiple sources.
Quote from: milk on August 27, 2020, 10:35:22 PM
To be fair, the GOP voted for Donald tump. Here's the joke: for President of the United States! That's pretty bad. My friend showed me a meme his aunt posted of tump with Jesus' hand on his back. That's pretty bad.
Is it the one in which Jesus's face is actually that of Charles Manson?
Quote from: greg on August 28, 2020, 08:19:56 AM
You're not going to find it from the mainstream media stories.
There's a lot of sources, just google their names and "sex offender" or "criminal record" and there's screenshots in multiple sources.
While claiming to be minimally interested in politics and just looking for fun, bogged down by your massive IQ, you're really using GMG to disseminate alt-right propaganda.
Quote from: greg on August 28, 2020, 07:17:43 AM
One was a child molester and another has multiple counts of domestic violence/strangulation/use of a dangerous weapon.
The Nick Sandmann lawyer is going to represent him, so probably a huge positive for him.
Not at all. What this shooter needs is a lawyer whose has experience in Wisconsin, and plenty of experience defending people on trial for murder.
Sandmann's lawyer to the best of my knowledge is a civil suit lawyer, and his most famous case is simply getting settlements against big corporations in what are really only nuisance suits.
Note also greg is talking familiarly about "him" and "Kyle".
Great he's found a new hero.
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2020, 08:41:38 AM
Note also greg is talking familiarly about "him" and "Kyle".
Great he's found a new hero.
And I called Joseph by his first name. So what? It's shorter.
Speaking of, here's Joseph's criminal record:
https://inmatedatasearch.azcorrections.gov/PrintInmate.aspx?ID=172556
There's screenshots of his Wisconsin record floating around:
https://theothermccain.com/2020/08/28/sex-offender-joseph-rosenbaum-taunted-armed-civilians-shoot-me-n-r/
However, I did a search and he's not there anymore, his record has been pulled down. I've seen other people saying the same thing, it's probably just something they do when someone dies.
btw, maybe someone can confirm my Arizona link is legit before that gets pulled down as well?
It may or may not be true.
You seem to think it's okay for someone to kill a person on the street if by some weird chance the victim happens to have a criminal record.
You also seem to admire a guy who shoots several people in a couple of minutes, even though that (you'd be surprised!) counts as murder.
Lol.
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2020, 09:14:44 AM
It may or may not be true.
The official records may or may not be true? Ok.
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2020, 09:14:44 AM
You seem to think it's okay for someone to kill a person on the street if by some weird chance the victim happens to have a criminal record.
Wtf?
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2020, 09:14:44 AM
You also seem to admire a guy who shoots several people in a couple of minutes, even though that (you'd be surprised!) counts as murder.
Admire? You smoking something strong?
I'll leave judgement of him to the courts.
The idea, as far as what I could tell, is to defend people from burning down more businesses. Good intentions, but is actually doing that a good idea? Probably not.
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2020, 08:06:47 AM
Looks like you're getting this false info from the right-wing propaganda machine.
Well, he's too lazy to do the research he needs to vote...how much effort is he going to put in on this incident?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2020, 09:54:22 AM
Well, he's too lazy to do the research he needs to vote...how much effort is he going to put in on this incident?
Wtf is that comment even?
I'm the only one here digging up links about this.
Here's the original video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iryQSpxSlrg
They chase him and when he's on the ground the mob yells "Get his ass!" Is he just supposed to sit there and not defend himself?
(yes, because the mob are the good guys, right?)
The first part has some divided opinions, but to me it just looks like someone chased him with a Molotov and he shot also in self-defence.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/Sxl8BXhWrA8
Also, in the other video, he didn't shoot the person in front of him that had their hands up (20 second marker). If he were a mass shooter, wouldn't he have taken that shot? Looks like it'd have been an easy one.
Quote from: greg on August 28, 2020, 10:01:31 AM
They chase him and when he's on the ground the mob yells "Get his ass!" Is he just supposed to sit there and not defend himself?
After he shot somebody point blank.
You seem to forget that part.
He could have turned to the police and said book me.
For all your massive IQ you seem to have missed a couple of things about civics.
However, this is a waste of time: clearly you sympathise massively with a man who killed two guys in the street and was ready to kill some more.
4 people at RNC in Charlotte test positive for COVID, as GOP defends safety measures (https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article245322115.html)
"Two attendees and two local support staff at the Republican National Convention in Charlotte tested positive for COVID-19, Mecklenburg County and GOP officials announced Friday.
The disclosures come after county health officials raised concerns about a lack of social distancing and mask wearing during the roll-call vote to renominate President Donald Trump for a second term on Monday — despite strict health protocols that were supposed to be followed. The GOP is defending the safety procedures it had in place.
Local health officials said the county instructed those who were infected to isolate immediately, and people who came in close contact with them should also quarantine themselves. A county spokeswoman did not respond to questions on whether the orders were followed.
It is not clear how many people at the RNC might have been exposed to the coronavirus. Almost 800 people were tested by the local hospital systems for the event.
The two infected attendees drove themselves home while self-isolating, GOP spokeswoman Blair Ellis said. That action aligns with the joint guidelines from the RNC, the county and local hospitals."
President Super-Spreader
"Yes, we still have an election. But barring a landslide victory for either party, it will be the beginning and not the end of the raw struggle for power in a fast-collapsing republic. In a close race, Trump will never concede, and if he is somehow forced to, he will mount a campaign from the outside to delegitimize the incoming president, backed by street-gangs and propaganda outfits. If Biden wins, we may have one last chance for the center to hold — and what few hopes I have rest on this.
But Biden, let's face it, is weak and a party man to his core, and has surrendered to the far left at almost every single turn — from abortion to immigration to race. You'd be a fool I think, to believe he could resist their fanaticism in office, or that if he does, he won't be toast in a struggle to succeed him."
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-trap-the-democrats-walked-right (https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-trap-the-democrats-walked-right)
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2020, 10:35:34 AM
After he shot somebody point blank.
You seem to forget that part.
He could have turned to the police and said book me.
For all your massive IQ you seem to have missed a couple of things about civics.
However, this is a waste of time: clearly you sympathise massively with a man who killed two guys in the street and was ready to kill some more.
So I guess if you had a gun and someone chased you and threw a molotov at you then you would just sit there and die? And afterwards if a mob comes at you with intent to harm you would just sit there and let them kill you?
Well ok then. Indeed, a waste of time.
"Sympathize massively" is an overstatement. No need for exaggeration. Just adding more perspective.
Clearly from the video he isnt a terrorist- more like a vigilante, which I dont approve of either. Better to not even get in situations where you have to defend yourself.
Also wanted to make it clear the guys he shot are NOT good guys as you can see from the criminal records, so no sympathy for them. (although it shouldnt need to be said that if you are joining mobs that are trying to burn down the city then you arent a good person, period).
I would recommend looking at stuff from an objective perspective for once, but by now I couldnt imagine that happening.
Quote from: greg on August 28, 2020, 05:43:50 PM
So I guess if you had a gun and someone chased you and threw a molotov at you then you would just sit there and die? And afterwards if a mob comes at you with intent to harm you would just sit there and let them kill you?
Well ok then. Indeed, a waste of time.
"Sympathize massively" is an overstatement. No need for exaggeration. Just adding more perspective.
Clearly from the video he isnt a terrorist- more like a vigilante, which I dont approve of either. Better to not even get in situations where you have to defend yourself.
Also wanted to make it clear the guys he shot are NOT good guys as you can see from the criminal records, so no sympathy for them. (although it shouldnt need to be said that if you are joining mobs that are trying to burn down the city then you arent a good person, period).
I would recommend looking at stuff from an objective perspective for once, but by now I couldnt imagine that happening.
The object thrown at him was a plastic bag, per the criminal complaint against him.
Were any of the people shot looting or burning at the time? Just because you're an excon or a sex offender doesn't mean you lose the rights of free speech.
Quote from: milk on August 28, 2020, 05:03:38 PM
But Biden, let's face it, is weak and a party man to his core, and has surrendered to the far left at almost every single turn — from abortion to immigration to race. You'd be a fool I think, to believe he could resist their fanaticism in office, or that if he does, he won't be toast in a struggle to succeed him."
I don't buy this caricature.
And "let's face it" has all the rhetorical strength of Trump's "Believe me."
Quote from: Christabel on August 27, 2020, 08:30:06 PM
A somewhat perverse and jaundiced view of the world but, sadly, all too typical of the Left.
Yikes! When Christabel has a legit criticism (despite the gratuitous jab at "the Left") you really might want to rethink some of your views.
Quote from: JBS on August 28, 2020, 05:49:03 PM
The object thrown at him was a plastic bag, per the criminal complaint against him.
Were any of the people shot looting or burning at the time? Just because you're an excon or a sex offender doesn't mean you lose the rights of free speech.
Whatever that was thrown, it was on fire. He could have mistaken it for a Molotov- looked like one to me.
You're missing my point about the people who were shot. The point is to not pity them. And realize the people that go into these riots are bad people. Not that they should indiscriminately be massacred, which is not even what happened. All of it was self defense. If someone comes at you with intent to kill, you shouldn't be regarded as a terrorist for defending yourself.
And if you didn't see the videos before, the rioters were literally begging to be shot. They also initiated the chasing. They could have stayed to themselves and not try to kill someone who is armed, and this wouldn't have happened.
And they idea was that they were trying to loot and burn like they've been doing, that's the whole reason the guys with the guns were there. The only reason they probably weren't looting and burning at the time was because they were there. But the rioters got super pissed off at them for trying to stop their fun.
Quote from: greg on August 28, 2020, 07:21:43 PM
Whatever that was thrown, it was on fire. He could have mistaken it for a Molotov- looked like one to me.
You're missing my point about the people who were shot. The point is to not pity them. And realize the people that go into these riots are bad people. Not that they should indiscriminately be massacred, which is not even what happened. All of it was self defense. If someone comes at you with intent to kill, you shouldn't be regarded as a terrorist for defending yourself.
And if you didn't see the videos before, the rioters were literally begging to be shot. They also initiated the chasing. They could have stayed to themselves and not try to kill someone who is armed, and this wouldn't have happened.
And they idea was that they were trying to loot and burn like they've been doing, that's the whole reason the guys with the guns were there. The only reason they probably weren't looting and burning at the time was because they were there. But the rioters got super pissed off at them for trying to stop their fun.
He had his mom drive him from out of state so he could he have the chance to shoot people.
Your sympathy for him is entirely misplaced.
Quote from: JBS on August 28, 2020, 07:28:03 PM
He had his mom drive him from out of state so he could he have the chance to shoot people.
Your sympathy for him is entirely misplaced.
Is that what he said?
Could have fooled me, not shooting that guy on him that had his hands up. Why not shoot him after having finished shooting the people trying to kill him? Seems if I just wanted to kill people I'd have shot him as well.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2020, 05:50:00 PM
I don't buy this caricature.
And "let's face it" has all the rhetorical strength of Trump's "Believe me."
It's kind of sad to me that the Dems couldn't come up with someone better. I still think Biden has a good shot to win but I can also see him losing. I really dislike Harris too. To me, she seems like a terrible speaker. Maybe Duckworth would have been better. There's a reason why she was one of the least successful campaigns earlier on.
Quote from: JBS on August 28, 2020, 07:28:03 PM
He had his mom drive him from out of state so he could he have the chance to shoot people.
Your sympathy for him is entirely misplaced.
If you really look at the situation with an unbiased eye I think everyone comes out looking bad - but you also don't see a conviction for murder in the offing. Not unless the prosecutor has something that wasn't caught on video from the very initial part of the event. It's seems like a horrible chaotic scene and it also seems like there were other instigators - people with criminal records and bad intent that are drawn to these protests. I don't mean the militia types. I mean in addition to them.
There are obviously very sincere peaceful protestors who believe in their cause but who are not part of a disciplined movement that is able to project a strong non-violent Ideal. Stuck on to these people are anarchist types who believe property destruction (and perhaps the collapse of society) is a good thing. I remember these kinds of people from my university days. They seemed cool if you didn't take them seriously. Then there are right-wing agitators who wish to cooperate with the Che Guevara-wannabe types in causing chaos and mayhem. Then there are these right-wing Gun-freak militia people who get a kick out of this stuff too. And there are conservatives who support the police and apolitical people getting their businesses graffitied and smashed.
To me, Rittenhouse doesn't look like the aggressor from any of the videos, certainly not a "serial killer," but it's hard to know what or who started the initial chain of events. It seems like there were two or three instigator types that can be see on earlier videos and then in the action when the shooting goes down. It also appears that there were other shots fired, possibly by instigators hoping to get it going.
Rittenhouse seems like a sad individual with stupid parents.
The people who got killed may have thought they were doing a good thing, may have meant well. That doesn't mean that the kid will be found culpable for their deaths. From what I see in the videos, maybe not.
Quote from: milk on August 28, 2020, 05:03:38 PM
"Yes, we still have an election. But barring a landslide victory for either party, it will be the beginning and not the end of the raw struggle for power in a fast-collapsing republic. In a close race, Trump will never concede, and if he is somehow forced to, he will mount a campaign from the outside to delegitimize the incoming president, backed by street-gangs and propaganda outfits. If Biden wins, we may have one last chance for the center to hold — and what few hopes I have rest on this.
But Biden, let's face it, is weak and a party man to his core, and has surrendered to the far left at almost every single turn — from abortion to immigration to race. You'd be a fool I think, to believe he could resist their fanaticism in office, or that if he does, he won't be toast in a struggle to succeed him."
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-trap-the-democrats-walked-right (https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-trap-the-democrats-walked-right)
Another stupid pundit fallacy hot take from Andrew Sullivan. The median Democratic voter does not see these as "far left" issues or even particularly contentious. But right-wing authoritarian Andrew Sullivan does. I assume on the abortion issue he's talking about is the Hyde amendment. The number of Democratic voters who care about preserving the Hyde Amendment must be minuscule. Not sure what he means about "race", but this was a guy who promoted the garbage "scientific" racism of the The Bell Curve (and still does, as far as I know.)
Quote from: Daverz on August 28, 2020, 11:37:13 PM
Another stupid pundit fallacy hot take from Andrew Sullivan. The median Democratic voter does not see these as "far left" issues or even particularly contentious. But right-wing authoritarian Andrew Sullivan does. I assume on the abortion issue he's talking about is the Hyde amendment. The number of Democratic voters who care about preserving the Hyde Amendment must be minuscule. Not sure what he means about "race", but this was a guy who promoted the garbage "scientific" racism of the The Bell Curve (and still does, as far as I know.)
The BLM agenda is far out of the mainstream, and I'm talking about Democrats too.
Quote from: milk on August 29, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
The BLM agenda is far out of the mainstream, and I'm talking about Democrats too.
No matter. racial justice is core value.
Quote from: JBS on August 28, 2020, 07:28:03 PM
He had his mom drive him from out of state so he could he have the chance to shoot people.
Your sympathy for him is entirely misplaced.
Don't see much sympathy for the victims, do you?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2020, 05:28:04 AM
No matter. racial justice is core value.
of BLM? Well you won't catch me disagreeing in public. :blank:
But Biden IS the candidate that African Americans voted for: a moderate. Black Americans also supported Clinton and shouted down BLM's attempt to boo her off the stage in Georgia during the last election. Let's hope Biden wins. With Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota just about tied, I'm getting a sinking feeling. I guess if Biden can hold onto Pennsylvania...
One of the problems I have with this thread is that I am having trouble knowing which posts are being sarcastic.
A pair of stories from Comedy News Network:
NBA, players say games will resume on Saturday and arenas can be used for voting (https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/28/sport/nba-michael-jordan-postpone-playoff-wnba-thursday-spt-intl/index.html)
Obama counseled 'a small group' of NBA players amid boycotts (https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/28/politics/obama-chris-paul-lebron-james-nba/index.html)
Kudos to Adam Silver for figuring out a way to monetize the pursuit of racial justice. He must have contacted some Nike folks for advice. Kudos to Obama for the continuing politicization of everything.
My activity in this thread might drop at least temporarily as I feel quite tired. Endless debates about so stupid things. This guy was shot here. This dude tweeted this. This Karen attacked this SJW. Jeesus! DNC was depressing and RNC was utter insanity. I was able to watch only small samples of both. I don't know if the US as a country has any hope. The progressives try so hard to gain power, but the corporates have rigged everything... ...I feel like concentrating on my own hobbies and pretend the US doesn't even exist...
:'( ??? :-X :(
Quote from: 71 dB on August 29, 2020, 06:20:30 AMI don't know if the US as a country has any hope.
No, probably not. It's the end. It's over. The US is kaput. It had a decent run. Hey,
Gilligan's Island is a US creation. We'll always have that.
Quote from: Todd on August 29, 2020, 06:26:34 AM
No, probably not. It's the end. It's over. The US is kaput. It had a decent run. Hey, Gilligan's Island is a US creation. We'll always have that.
I am not ready to give up.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 29, 2020, 06:30:12 AM
I am not ready to give up.
You don't have much choice unless you immigrate to another country. Luke Bland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmVyjZF5LNs) found his "American dream" in Finland.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 29, 2020, 06:30:12 AM
I am not ready to give up.
You were wondering which posts were sarcastic?
The one with Gilligan's Island obviously was.
Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2020, 07:23:30 AM
You were wondering which posts were sarcastic?
The one with Gilligan's Island obviously was.
"Gilligan's Wake...The title is derived from the title of the TV show and Finnegans Wake, the final work of Irish novelist James Joyce...The New York Times considered it "not as good as Finnegans Wake, but (...) better than Gilligan's Island."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilligan%27s_Wake
I have never met anybody who could tell me how "good" Finnegans Wake is.
Quote from: milk on August 29, 2020, 07:29:24 AM
Finnegans Wake, the final work of Irish novelist James Joyce...
[asin]B00W4L0PAS[/asin]
https://www.youtube.com/v/PsxuO9HNGAs&feature=emb_logo
There's more than one way to be super creepy.
President Donald J. Tedious
Trump's speech was nasty, brutish and interminable
Trump's America must remedy the horrible ills of . . . Trump's America. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trumps-speech-was-nasty-brutish-and-interminable/2020/08/28/d3a0ff96-e947-11ea-97e0-94d2e46e759b_story.html?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-d-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Quote from: milk on August 28, 2020, 09:18:41 PM
It's kind of sad to me that the Dems couldn't come up with someone better. I still think Biden has a good shot to win but I can also see him losing. I really dislike Harris too. To me, she seems like a terrible speaker. Maybe Duckworth would have been better. There's a reason why she was one of the least successful campaigns earlier on. If you really look at the situation with an unbiased eye I think everyone comes out looking bad - but you also don't see a conviction for murder in the offing. Not unless the prosecutor has something that wasn't caught on video from the very initial part of the event. It's seems like a horrible chaotic scene and it also seems like there were other instigators - people with criminal records and bad intent that are drawn to these protests. I don't mean the militia types. I mean in addition to them.
There are obviously very sincere peaceful protestors who believe in their cause but who are not part of a disciplined movement that is able to project a strong non-violent Ideal. Stuck on to these people are anarchist types who believe property destruction (and perhaps the collapse of society) is a good thing. I remember these kinds of people from my university days. They seemed cool if you didn't take them seriously. Then there are right-wing agitators who wish to cooperate with the Che Guevara-wannabe types in causing chaos and mayhem. Then there are these right-wing Gun-freak militia people who get a kick out of this stuff too. And there are conservatives who support the police and apolitical people getting their businesses graffitied and smashed.
To me, Rittenhouse doesn't look like the aggressor from any of the videos, certainly not a "serial killer," but it's hard to know what or who started the initial chain of events. It seems like there were two or three instigator types that can be see on earlier videos and then in the action when the shooting goes down. It also appears that there were other shots fired, possibly by instigators hoping to get it going.
Rittenhouse seems like a sad individual with stupid parents.
The people who got killed may have thought they were doing a good thing, may have meant well. That doesn't mean that the kid will be found culpable for their deaths. From what I see in the videos, maybe not.
You're not supposed be looking at things from an unbiased perspective, though, you're supposed to be pick a team and join in tribal warfare!
The world is black and white, seeing this so-called color "gray" just means you're hallucinating and are crazy and weird. ::)
Quote from: greg on August 27, 2020, 10:43:42 AM
As for the psychopathic traits, it makes since if you compare it to a virus. Which ones are the most successful?
The ones that stay in the host body for a long time before they are spread, so they are easily spread. Killing the host quickly would mean not being able to jump to the next. Also spreading without physical contact is very beneficial. So in a real life scenario, you will hang out with family members that appear healthy, not even touching them, and will get the virus.
Likewise, if you tell people about your unpopular ideology in a straightforward manner, you will get instant backlash and it will die. You have to give a little in order to get it all. That is the law of anything, regardless if it is good or bad. The mask is there to look like a healthy family member, when really they are a sick person who will get you killed by going near them.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2020, 05:28:04 AM
No matter. racial justice is core value.
Aaaand that's how you let the virus into your body and let it take control.
Imagine the right doing that. "He stands for making this country strong, no matter if he wants to eradicate the Jewish population."
At some point you have to distance yourself from elements of your own party- because they truly aren't your own party. They are just using your goodwill in order to further their agenda of watching the world burn.
You seem to be the only one here who is not aware you're 100% in the Trump fold siding with white supremacists and mass shooters, which makes your comments about other people's perceived tribalism a really weird tribute to your self-declared IQ.
Quote from: milk on August 29, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
The BLM agenda is far out of the mainstream, and I'm talking about Democrats too.
I'd like to think that most Democratic voters are not consumed by racial resentment and go out of their way to find reasons to reject the core BLM message.
Quote from: Daverz on August 29, 2020, 11:17:25 AM
I'd like to think that most Democratic voters are not consumed by racial resentment and go out of their way to find reasons to reject the core BLM message.
Does not seem much of a leap to
me....
Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2020, 11:03:10 AM
You seem to be the only one here who is not aware you're 100% in the Trump fold siding with white supremacists and mass shooters, which makes your comments about other people's perceived tribalism a really weird tribute to your self-declared IQ.
Because I'm not 100% on the far left I want to lick Trump shoes. There is no center. You'll ignore that I think it was a bad idea to travel with a gun to defend business. You'll ignore the video showing he isn't a mass shooter, and it was all self-defense.
"Self-declared IQ" okay so you want to question that now? I don't have to prove shit to you. I was in gifted in school (which is IQ tested), I did several practice IQ tests, including the official Mensa practice test and tested at 128-129. But you are going to say that I'm lying? So I'm a liar now, right?
At this point you really have to just back down, stop defending stupid stuff. Do you really want to see American cities burn?
Wtf is wrong with you? Seriously? The only explanation is that something truly is wrong with your brain to be endlessly spouting nonsense.
You are literally just a monkey throwing shit at people thinking it's a valid argument. I'm done. Logic, facts, none of it will work against a monkey throwing shit. The only solution is to throw my shit back at you.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 29, 2020, 07:34:47 AM
[asin]B00W4L0PAS[/asin]
cool! I bet that's good: one for the non-classical diner.
Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2020, 11:03:10 AM
You seem to be the only one here who is not aware you're 100% in the Trump fold siding with white supremacists and mass shooters, which makes your comments about other people's perceived tribalism a really weird tribute to your self-declared IQ.
At this point you are simply bullying me so I have the right to bully you back. Fair enough? I'm a white supremacist now? Ok then, racist asshole.
Instead of talking about the specifics of what I'm saying, continuously you sit back and twist what I'm saying (usually not even quoting what I'm saying) in order to discredit me.
You are not a good person, period. You are a racist asshole. That's all.
Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2020, 07:32:47 AM
I have never met anybody who could tell me how "good" Finnegans Wake is.
I cannot manage to read it.
Wonkette:
Who The Hell Is The Target Market For This Election 2020 Chess Set? (https://www.wonkette.com/who-the-hell-is-the-target-market-for-this-election-2020-chess-set)
(https://mojonow.blob.core.windows.net/cmr/t3620/opt/5176500ee6c8412590d9078e21b18a6e_1.jpg)
"There must be people out there who collect commemorative plates. I don't know who they are, but commemorative plates are a thing, so they must be. Somewhere, there is a house full of commemorative plates. There must be people who buy those dolls. You know the ones. They're porcelain and sometimes of a famous person and there are ads for them on late night television? There must be people who buy things off of the television. I'm not one of them, but clearly they do exist. I think like half of the Real Housewives have had stints on either QVC or HSN at some point. It is, in fact, super satisfying how hideous most of the clothes in the Lisa Rinna QVC collection are, but there are, of course, people who buy them.
Just as there are almost definitely people who have or would purchase this extremely unsettling Election 2020 chess set.
AHHHH!
Like, who is it, do we think, that is the market for this? Who is the person who would go "Here, take my $39.99, so that I can place this in my home and just relive the wonder that is the year 2020 over and over and over again through the magic of chess?"
Just look at that fine craftsmanship!
(https://assets.rebelmouse.io/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpbWFnZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXNzZXRzLnJibC5tcy8yMzU5NjU3MC9vcmlnaW4ucG5nIiwiZXhwaXJlc19hdCI6MTYyNzA1MjMyOX0.z_Hnk3H0sxk0kH65h5RaPb7swVY0_lQRWuyuMgA0zk8/img.png?width=980)
Apparently they made this chess set well before the primary ended, so they don't have a King or a Queen for the Democrats yet, and do not even list them on the site yet. Awkwardly, Joe Biden is already a rook. So you're gonna have two Joe Bidens. This seems like some poor foresight on the part of these chess makers.
(https://assets.rebelmouse.io/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpbWFnZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXNzZXRzLnJibC5tcy8yMzU5NjU3NC9vcmlnaW4ucG5nIiwiZXhwaXJlc19hdCI6MTYxNDcwNzAzMH0.zvfJcvzOctAVbdxwCLnLv3raxDPEr4si1_ObMFQ4qcs/img.png?width=980)
I actually did get my mom a Ruth Bader Ginsburg themed board game (https://buffalogames.com/i-dissent/)for her birthday, but it actually just seemed like a very fun game. It also did not seem like a thing that would give me any nightmares, as Mitch McConnell riding on a tiny elephant definitely will.
(https://assets.rebelmouse.io/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpbWFnZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXNzZXRzLnJibC5tcy8yMzU5NjU3OS9vcmlnaW4ucG5nIiwiZXhwaXJlc19hdCI6MTY1Mjg1Njc2MH0.tZ9z5KMUDZGOTPeh3v0pWwC5fQcDzVv6OVfAhCRYojs/img.png?width=980)
Quote from: arpeggio on August 29, 2020, 06:30:12 AM
I am not ready to give up.
I am ready to give up on this thread. Most of the posts make no sense to me.
Henning and SimonNZ are two of the posters I understand.
Far right->Kyle Rittenhouse should have shot into the crowd indiscriminately, killing everyone
Right->It was a good idea to go out and protect businesses
Center->Not a good idea to protect businesses, but he (and anyone else) have a right to self-defense when attacked
I agree with Center. But actually I'm far right because Herman says so.
71dB,
I spent 29 years as a pension auditor with the United States Government. During my career I audited over 1,000 pension plans.
One of the reasons I changed from a conservative to a liberal is a result of my experiences.
I can not except your position concerning the evils of corporate America. Based on my experiences the majority of businessmen I dealt with were honest, honorable people who wanted to do the right thing. Most of them were like the members of Patriotic Millionaires. However there was this 20% who were totally unethical or out right criminals. Trump is definitely a member of the 20%. One of the reasons we need regulations is protect the honest businessmen from the scumbags.
Quote from: greg on August 29, 2020, 05:31:19 PM
Far right->Kyle Rittenhouse should have shot into the crowd indiscriminately, killing everyone
Right->It was a good idea to go out and protect businesses
Center->Not a good idea to protect businesses, but he (and anyone else) have a right to self-defense when attacked
I agree with Center. But actually I'm far right because Herman says so.
You are making this up. You're moving the goal posts to make your points. Rittenhouse was not engaging in self-defense. He travelled across state lines (illegally with a assault weapon) looking for a fight in which he could make his kills.
The reason why you have clearly chosen for the right, is because you are consistently defending positions no Center of Center Left person would choose. The "it was self-defense" defense is what far right sources are saying, against all evidence. Let's just remind you that the shooter is now in a cell and will go to prison for a long long time. That should give you a signal his actions were not entirely reasonable. He broke the laws many times, even before he started killing people.
From the moment you started showing a faint interest in the 2020 elections (saying all the time you were not really interested) you have adopted the attitude that your lack of interest made you a neutral or center-inclined person, and you gave yourself the license to heckle and ridicule other posters constantly for being "tribal".
The interesting thing was you never call the few left-over Trump supporters here "tribal". That is because in reality you're one of them. It's pretty clear from what you're posting that the media you consult are way to the right. So, when this kid kills a couple of people on the streets you go to alt-right sources that reveal that the people killed were, in some distant past, not okay. As if that legitimizes killing those folks in the street. That's the import of that information. You act as if you're just being neutral, but it looks like you just don't have the intellectual wherewithal to grasp concepts like simple justice and law and order. One doesn't kill people (even if they act "tribal") on a hunch they have in the past, before you were born, conducted themselves badly.
Some time ago you explained that moral principles don't mean anything to you as a guidance in one's conduct. It's all hormones and it's no use asking questions about one's actions. It's all a win / lose game. That was very honest. It was the clearest statement of post-moral, dog-eat-dog Trumpian ethics ever posted on GMG, though I'm sure on alt-right sites people say these things all the time. So in a way it all makes sense. But the reason why there is some irritation is you're constantly telling posters here, who are mostly far to the center from 71B, that they are tribal leftists, and when it's about Karl or me, that's just not the case.
Also, your continued avowal that you're not really interested makes it rather odd that you keep posting here and commenting on other posters who obviously
are interested. Pointing this out is not "bullying". You are constantly commenting on other people's posts, but you seem to expect you're in a sort of comment-or-critique free zone yourself.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 12:38:23 AM
You are making this up. You're moving the goal posts to make your points. Rittenhouse was not engaging in self-defense. He travelled across state lines (illegally with a assault weapon) looking for a fight in which he could make his kills.
The reason why you have clearly chosen for the right, is because you are consistently defending positions no Center of Center Left person would choose. The "it was self-defense" defense is what far right sources are saying, against all evidence. Let's just remind you that the shooter is now in a cell and will go to prison for a long long time. That should give you a signal his actions were not entirely reasonable. He broke the laws many times, even before he started killing people.
What you're doing is worse. You're begging the question. You're assuming Rittenhouse went there to kill people. What's YOUR evidence? You've said this over and over.
I'm not saying what's true either way. He's clearly into the militia stuff. I don't like those people myself but that doesn't make him a serial killer. Neither does the fact that he's been charged. Saying it's "self-evident" is a non-argument and not a serious thing to write.
Like the situation in Atlanta, there's overwhelming pressure to indict.
The videos show him running away and only firing on people attacking him. He even neglects to shoot at the person who puts their hands up (faked, and eventually got shot when he came back at him).
It may be true that more evidence will show up that makes Rittenhouse more provably culpable.
I can substantiate what I've said so far with evidence.
Here's an exhaustive analysis of the videos:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The-Kenosha-Shootings-Kyle-Rittenhouse-A-Tactical-and-Legal-Analysis-WARNING-Bandwidth-Intensive/5-2362796/
I'm also willing to change my mind. As far as I can tell, your argument is, "it's self-evident" and "he was charged."
I doubt the police who killed Blake will ever be found guilty of anything. The same goes for the shooting in Atlanta.
BTW: I've never voted for a Republican in my life, hate tump and support Biden.
Quote from: milk on August 30, 2020, 03:03:24 AM
What you're doing is worse. You're begging the question. You're assuming Rittenhouse went there to kill people. What's YOUR evidence? You've said this over and over.
I'm not saying what's true either way. He's clearly into the militia stuff. I don't like those people myself but that doesn't make him a serial killer. Neither does the fact that he's been charged. Saying it's "self-evident" is a non-argument and not a serious thing to write.
Probably that he went there with a gun and killed people? Seriously though, I wouldn't say he went there to kill people. I'd say he went there with the means to kill people and the willingness to do so, after months or years of imagining scenarios in which he killed people under similar circumstances, with a sense of moral outrage against the protestors and a desire to put himself in the middle of a scenario like those in which where he had imagined himself performing a heroic, justified killing. It's not quite going there to kill people, but it's close.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 12:38:23 AM
You are making this up. You're moving the goal posts to make your points. Rittenhouse was not engaging in self-defense. He travelled across state lines (illegally with a assault weapon) looking for a fight in which he could make his kills.
So you are just going to assume he wasn't there to defend businesses. You've already made up your mind. There is no changing it. Discussion is pointless then. I'm not moving goalposts.
You are literally going to ignore the video of him defending himself. You ignore actual video evidence. This is why I don't respect you at all.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 12:38:23 AM
The interesting thing was you never call the few left-over Trump supporters here "tribal". That is because in reality you're one of them. It's pretty clear from what you're posting that the media you consult are way to the right. So, when this kid kills a couple of people on the streets you go to alt-right sources that reveal that the people killed were, in some distant past, not okay. As if that legitimizes killing those folks in the street. That's the import of that information. You act as if you're just being neutral, but it looks like you just don't have the intellectual wherewithal to grasp concepts like simple justice and law and order. One doesn't kill people (even if they act "tribal") on a hunch they have in the past, before you were born, conducted themselves badly.
Who even supports Trump here? Dowder? That's the only person here who I know who does. Everyone here is on the left so the narrative is insanely left-leaning, so to correct it I have to provide a different perspective to balance it out. And anything in disagreement (even actual video evidence) is going to be seen as alt-right because you are so hopelessly lost in your own bubble.
The rest of this part is a misrepresentation of what I said earlier. But you don't get the nuance. You don't get anything. You just continue on in your own world and never read what I'm actually saying. Why even bother? You don't get what I"m saying at all. You just don't understand. Stop pretending like you understand, because you don't.
Criticizing the far left is not the same as being alt-right/far right whatever that is. If you think that is the only indicator, then you are hopelessly idiotic.
I'm sick of correcting your misinterpretations of my posts. Just don't talk to me.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 12:38:23 AM
Also, your continued avowal that you're not really interested makes it rather odd that you keep posting here and commenting on other posters who obviously are interested. Pointing this out is not "bullying". You are constantly commenting on other people's posts, but you seem to expect you're in a sort of comment-or-critique free zone yourself.
Comment about my posts specifically. Not about me. Stop slandering me by implying I'm a white supremacist. That position is just beyond ridiculous and stupid. If you have nothing to say that isn't retarded then just stfu.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 12:38:23 AM
Some time ago you explained that moral principles don't mean anything to you as a guidance in one's conduct. It's all hormones and it's no use asking questions about one's actions. It's all a win / lose game. That was very honest. It was the clearest statement of post-moral, dog-eat-dog Trumpian ethics ever posted on GMG, though I'm sure on alt-right sites people say these things all the time. So in a way it all makes sense. But the reason why there is some irritation is you're constantly telling posters here, who are mostly far to the center from 71B, that they are tribal leftists, and when it's about Karl or me, that's just not the case.
This is a ridiculous interpretation of what I said before. You obviously didn't understand the meaning of it at all.
The fundamental problem may be that Herman is unable to fit new information, new perspectives and such into his mind without molding it into a pre-defined, already available perspective.
It is very telling that he cannot interpret my non-political posts correctly. So how is he going to interpret my political posts correctly?
If I'm giving information and views that are square-shaped, and his brain is filled with round holes, it will only accept round holes. So in order for the information to go through, he has to shave off the edges of the square in order for it to fit through.
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 30, 2020, 04:04:21 AM
Probably that he went there with a gun and killed people? Seriously though, I wouldn't say he went there to kill people. I'd say he went there with the means to kill people and the willingness to do so, after months or years of imagining scenarios in which he killed people under similar circumstances, with a sense of moral outrage against the protestors and a desire to put himself in the middle of a scenario like those in which where he had imagined himself performing a heroic, justified killing. It's not quite going there to kill people, but it's close.
Perhaps if they can show anything like that. I'm not an expert. I'm guessing like everyone else here, based on some legal analysis that I've read and the videos. What you're saying may be something a prosecutor will say and they may have a lot of documentation to show he loved guns and imagined these scenarios like you said. But that doesn't sound like enough especially when consider the kind of doubt the video may inspire in a judge or jury. In the videos, he's running away and people are pursuing him. When one guy puts his hand up, Rittenhouse halts his aim; when the same guy come back at him, he shoots. The skateboard guy also chases him and tried to hit him. Only then does he shoot. The beginning of this event is less clear to me. But it seems like there's a person coming at him after throwing something at him. The guy that throws the object and some other people were in previous videos shot earlier in the day and they're pretty provocative and confrontational. There are also other gunshots and other people trying to provoke violence.
Most of my friends on FB just assume Rittenhouse is guilty. Most of the media reports I've seen do likewise. But I haven't seen a case for his guilt that really analyzes the details. Theses days, the left is in a frenzy. It's the same with the actual police incidents. Facts and doubt don't seem to get through the wall of propaganda coming from the left. This is sad to me because I'm used to seeing this kind of behavior from the right only.
Quote from: milk on August 30, 2020, 05:44:53 AM
Perhaps if they can show anything like that. I'm not an expert. I'm guessing like everyone else here, based on some legal analysis that I've read and the videos. What you're saying may be something a prosecutor will say and they may have a lot of documentation to show he loved guns and imagined these scenarios like you said. But that doesn't sound like enough especially when consider the kind of doubt the video may inspire in a judge or jury. In the videos, he's running away and people are pursuing him. When one guy puts his hand up, Rittenhouse halts his aim; when the same guy come back at him, he shoots. The skateboard guy also chases him and tried to hit him. Only then does he shoot. The beginning of this event is less clear to me. But it seems like there's a person coming at him after throwing something at him. The guy that throws the object and some other people were in previous videos shot earlier in the day and they're pretty provocative and confrontational. There are also other gunshots and other people trying to provoke violence.
Most of my friends on FB just assume Rittenhouse is guilty. Most of the media reports I've seen do likewise. But I haven't seen a case for his guilt that really analyzes the details. Theses days, the left is in a frenzy. It's the same with the actual police incidents. Facts and doubt don't seem to get through the wall of propaganda coming from the left. This is sad to me because I'm used to seeing this kind of behavior from the right only.
If they can show a video of him provoking people before the first shooting, then he would be in the wrong and I wouldn't disagree with a prison sentence. We'll see.
Based on what's available, at this point in time, he does not appear to be in the wrong.
btw, saying that still would label me alt-right, I guess. Anything other than "he's a mass shooter/serial killer" is alt-right.
Also, the fact that I would have strongly considered/researched voting for Andrew Yang (tbh the only presidential candidate ever who I kinda liked) also would make me alt-right. A guy who is on the left. But that doesn't matter.
And my post earlier, agreeing with 71db when he wrote about supporting legalization of drugs, free college and living wage. All left stuff. I support those things, but I'm still on the alt-right.
And I'm actually an alt-right tribalist. Aw shucks.
(edit: not you saying that, milk, i didn't specify so trying to avoid confusion)
Sorry to all for the amount of posts I'm making... just had another thought.
There is some fundamental problem here. The misconception is that being against X means being in support of Y. And that defending Y means being in support of Y.
That is fundamentally incorrect. Being in support of Y is being in support of Y. That's it. Defending Y or being against X does not equate to supporting Y.
Quote from: milk on August 29, 2020, 04:08:44 PM
cool! I bet that's good: one for the non-classical diner.
I don't think it's one of
Tangerine Dream's best, nice it's Tangerine Dream so it's good. 0:)
Quote from: arpeggio on August 29, 2020, 06:43:18 PM
71dB,
I spent 29 years as a pension auditor with the United States Government. During my career I audited over 1,000 pension plans.
One of the reasons I changed from a conservative to a liberal is a result of my experiences.
I can not except your position concerning the evils of corporate America. Based on my experiences the majority of businessmen I dealt with were honest, honorable people who wanted to do the right thing. Most of them were like the members of Patriotic Millionaires. However there was this 20% who were totally unethical or out right criminals. Trump is definitely a member of the 20%. One of the reasons we need regulations is protect the honest businessmen from the scumbags.
I don't say they all are evil. I suppose most of small business owners for example are good honest people. I believe half of the millionaires think rich should pay more taxes etc. Scumbags bribe the politicians and the system gets rigged.
Quote from: milk on August 30, 2020, 03:03:24 AM
What you're doing is worse. You're begging the question. You're assuming Rittenhouse went there to kill people. What's YOUR evidence?
Right, what did he take with him, a squash racquet?
Quote from: greg on August 30, 2020, 07:06:56 AM
Sorry to all for the amount of posts I'm making... just had another thought.
There is some fundamental problem here. The misconception is that being against X means being in support of Y. And that defending Y means being in support of Y.
That is fundamentally incorrect. Being in support of Y is being in support of Y. That's it. Defending Y or being against X does not equate to supporting Y.
It depends a lot on how X and Y are related. If X and Y have for example strong
negative correlation, it's pretty logical to assume someone supporting Y is against X.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2020, 09:46:33 AM
Right, what did he take with him, a squash racquet?
I suppose that would be enough of a weapon to dissuade people from looting, burning, and vandalizing.
Quote from: greg on August 30, 2020, 05:09:45 AM
Who even supports Trump here? Dowder? That's the only person here who I know who does. Everyone here is on the left so the narrative is insanely left-leaning, so to correct it I have to provide a different perspective to balance it out. And anything in disagreement (even actual video evidence) is going to be seen as alt-right because you are so hopelessly lost in your own bubble.
While it has been a shock for me to see Trump's support on this board is non-zero, I was also shocked about how much "centrism" has support here. The overall sentiment here is if you are critical of Biden, you are a fool advancing Trump's re-election. Obama/Biden had supermajority for 18 months. They could have pushed social democratic ideas and make American better weakening the chances for Trump to win in 2016. How would have Trump's fake populism such as "I'm gonno repeal Obamacare and give all Americans great affordable healthcare" work if Obama/Biden would have implemented medicare for all or at least public option? What if the DNC would have allowed Bernie to win the nomination in 2016? Careful analyse tells us Bernie would have won Trump and the US would be in a MUCH better place it is now. There is a lot to criticize about Obama/Biden. There is a lot to criticize about corporate Dems and corporate media. Their greed to maintain the oligarchy has led to this sad state of fairs in the country. It has also been shocking how people reject here my recommendation to get your political information from independent lefties intead of corporate media. As Kyle Kulinski says:
"I'm just a loud mouth online, but people have to come to me to get real information, because corporate media does corporate propaganda."
Quote from: milk on August 30, 2020, 03:03:24 AM
What you're doing is worse. You're begging the question. You're assuming Rittenhouse went there to kill people. What's YOUR evidence? You've said this over and over.
He traveled to Kenosha with an assault weapon and used it to kill various people.
When he had made his first kill, he immediately called a friend to say so.
The idea that right-leaning pseudo law & order types go to these conflict zones to protect business or maintain order is a rank myth. Many of these guys try to provoke violence and destruction, A because they like beating up people B they know how these images will be spun to help the reelection of Trump. The instant media assumption is these are "antifa" types, but there is quite a lot of evidence to the contrary, with the most graphic instance the umbrella guy in Minneapolis.
I am aware you're a D voter, but thanks for mentioning it.
I think the Diner Cop requires me to state I did not go to Law School, and I do not intend to do so at some future point.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 30, 2020, 10:23:24 AM
What if the DNC would have allowed Bernie to win the nomination in 2016? Careful analyse tells us Bernie would have won Trump and the US would be in a MUCH better place it is now.
Sigh
Quote from: 71 dB on August 30, 2020, 09:41:18 AM
I don't say they all are evil. I suppose most of small business owners for example are good honest people. I believe half of the millionaires think rich should pay more taxes etc. Scumbags bribe the politicians and the system gets rigged.
Yes. That is what I was trying to say.
For generations we Americans thought we had a system and we immune to a fascist like Trump elected as President.
Boy were we naïve and wrong.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 10:34:22 AMI think the Diner Cop requires me to state I did not go to Law School, and I do not intend to do so at some future point.
Thanks for mentioning that.
Of course, anyone who can read would be able to figure that out.
Quote from: Florestan on August 30, 2020, 11:42:40 AM
How about a communist? How much stronger is your immunity to that?
The US is as immune to Communism as it is to Fascism. Of course, despite protestations to the contrary on GMG, Trump is not a Fascist. Fascist is a label misused and abused by all manner of folks for all sorts of reasons, one of them being intellectual laziness.
Don't Call Donald Trump a Fascist
What it means to brand today's right-wing leaders with the F-word—and why you probably shouldn't. (https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/02/donald-trump-fascist-nazi-right-wing/)
Quote from: Eliah BuresThe partisan-minded can always pick up the odor of fascism if they sniff hard enough.
(Can't you already read the rejoinders of certain non-Americans on the board who would proclaim that they are not and cannot be partisan - while posting incessantly about the politics of a country they do not live in and have no direct stake in?)
on the other hand, a figure like Trump did not come out of nowhere.
As the Republican Party was becoming a minority party it has been moving toward a Trump.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 12:12:03 PMon the hand, a figure like Trump did not come out of nowhere.
As the Republican Party was becoming a minority party it has been moving toward a Trump.
An error in translation, I'm sure.
Quote from: arpeggio on August 30, 2020, 10:56:09 AM
Yes. That is what I was trying to say.
For generations we Americans thought we had a system and we immune to a fascist like Trump elected as President.
Boy were we naïve and wrong.
I think of Geo. C. Scott in Dr Strangelove... I admit the human element seems to have failed us here....
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 12:12:03 PM
on the hand, a figure like Trump did not come out of nowhere.
As the Republican Party was becoming a minority party it has been moving toward a Trump.
Yes... White Supremacy all the way.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 30, 2020, 10:23:24 AM
While it has been a shock for me to see Trump's support on this board is non-zero, I was also shocked about how much "centrism" has support here. The overall sentiment here is if you are critical of Biden, you are a fool advancing Trump's re-election. Obama/Biden had supermajority for 18 months. They could have pushed social democratic ideas and make American better weakening the chances for Trump to win in 2016. How would have Trump's fake populism such as "I'm gonno repeal Obamacare and give all Americans great affordable healthcare" work if Obama/Biden would have implemented medicare for all or at least public option? What if the DNC would have allowed Bernie to win the nomination in 2016? Careful analyse tells us Bernie would have won Trump and the US would be in a MUCH better place it is now. There is a lot to criticize about Obama/Biden. There is a lot to criticize about corporate Dems and corporate media. Their greed to maintain the oligarchy has led to this sad state of fairs in the country. It has also been shocking how people reject here my recommendation to get your political information from independent lefties intead of corporate media. As Kyle Kulinski says: "I'm just a loud mouth online, but people have to come to me to get real information, because corporate media does corporate propaganda."
Yes, that's what Kyle tells you, and you keep repeating it uncritically like a good little parrot, which is why you should turn off the Kyle vids and pick up some books on the Obama years - and there are now some highly praised, award winning ones out there - and you can learn in actual detail and in day-by-day recreation why it is that even with a "supermajority" he still couldn't just wave his hand and say "make it so!". And from that study you'll be able to see why Sanders couldn't have either.
Quote from: greg on August 30, 2020, 05:09:45 AM
so to correct it I have to provide a different perspective to balance it out.
Perhaps if you told us just what you actually believe yourself rather than mixing in some devils advocate stuff that nobody needs or wants then you wont have to feel your views are being misunderstood and you wouldn't be accused of "moving the goalposts"?
Personally I'm only interested in talking with you and not your imaginary friend who believes other stuff and has no accountability for their words, and can only be a pastiche of someone else's opinion.
Quote from: greg on August 30, 2020, 05:59:20 AM
btw, saying that still would label me alt-right, I guess. Anything other than "he's a mass shooter/serial killer" is alt-right.
This is just a small example of something that's left me shell-shocked, shell-shocked because just a few years ago I had no sympathy for anything other than left-wing positions. Something has really changed and I'm still trying to absorb it.
Yes, my friends on FB post memes like, "look who's defending the shooter" about some such person. I keep my mouth (my feed) shut on this and everything else. If one slight divergence gets noticed, who knows what could happen to my friendships and family relationships, even my "career."
But I noticed this started happening and progressed little-by-litttle. It's connected to every aspect of woke-ism.
Last year my friend's company got destroyed over metoo allegations against the CEO. It was a bunch vague nonsense that snowballed on twitter and even got picked up by the press as a comeuppance against the "male dominated" gaming industry. These days, the news has become, "what's happening on twitter." Public shaming, "believe all...", and cancel culture...
Cultural Appropriation is another looney thing the left dreamed up but one example is a Mexican restaurant in Portland that got shut down because the owners researched their recipes by traveling around Mexico.
The cultural wars of the left are a gift to big business and the right IMO. Either tump will take the occasion to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat or Biden will win and run a milk-toast admin that doesn't really change much on key issues having to do with poverty and foreign policy.
Anyway, sorry for my rant, back to Greg: the left is in a frenzy. Many people are good people trying to do the right thing. I see them so heartbroken and genuinely convinced of the "continued genocide against black people," as Naomi Osaka put it. If I tried to engage them there'd be no way to have a conversation. You can't even disagree a little bit without ricking the destruction of the relationships.
BTW:
2 facts about Blake: 1. Cops tried to subdue him to the ground and he escaped them (which doesn't make it right to shoot him UNLESS they thought he was reaching for a weapon)
2. He was wanted for raping a woman and stealing her ATM card and car keys
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 30, 2020, 02:37:00 PM
Yes, that's what Kyle tells you, and you keep repeating it uncritically like a good little parrot, which is why you should turn off the Kyle vids and pick up some books on the Obama years - and there are now some highly praised, award winning ones out there - and you can learn in actual detail and in day-by-day recreation why it is that even with a "supermajority" he still couldn't just wave his hand and say "make it so!". And from that study you'll be able to see why Sanders couldn't have either.
Why do you assume books contain 100 % accurate facts? Books can be bs too.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 30, 2020, 03:05:05 PM
Perhaps if you told us just what you actually believe yourself rather than mixing in some devils advocate stuff that nobody needs or wants then you wont have to feel your views are being misunderstood and you wouldn't be accused of "moving the goalposts"?
"What I believe-" maybe this is something useless to explain, but generally the truth is more complicated than just taking one position or the other.
There's some truths on the left. There's some truths on the right. Neither side is 100% correct. Sometimes you have to adjust your own stance in times where it is needed. Sometimes a little less force is needed. Sometimes a little more force is needed. Each situation is different.
It's going to look like devil's advocate because I think more laterally and am looking at all the sides of an issue. As for what "side" I'm on, just whatever would lead to the greater good for everyone, and whatever is true. Which requires a lot of thinking and second-guessing your own conclusions.
Quote from: milk on August 30, 2020, 03:30:51 PM
This is just a small example of something that's left me shell-shocked, shell-shocked because just a few years ago I had no sympathy for anything other than left-wing positions. Something has really changed and I'm still trying to absorb it.
Yes, my friends on FB post memes like, "look who's defending the shooter" about some such person. I keep my mouth (my feed) shut on this and everything else. If one slight divergence gets noticed, who knows what could happen to my friendships and family relationships, even my "career."
But I noticed this started happening and progressed little-by-litttle. It's connected to every aspect of woke-ism.
Last year my friend's company got destroyed over metoo allegations against the CEO. It was a bunch vague nonsense that snowballed on twitter and even got picked up by the press as a comeuppance against the "male dominated" gaming industry. These days, the news has become, "what's happening on twitter." Public shaming, "believe all...", and cancel culture...
Cultural Appropriation is another looney thing the left dreamed up but one example is a Mexican restaurant in Portland that got shut down because the owners researched their recipes by traveling around Mexico.
The cultural wars of the left are a gift to big business and the right IMO. Either tump will take the occasion to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat or Biden will win and run a milk-toast admin that doesn't really change much on key issues having to do with poverty and foreign policy.
Anyway, sorry for my rant, back to Greg: the left is in a frenzy. Many people are good people trying to do the right thing. I see them so heartbroken and genuinely convinced of the "continued genocide against black people," as Naomi Osaka put it. If I tried to engage them there'd be no way to have a conversation. You can't even disagree a little bit without ricking the destruction of the relationships.
True, man, I try to analyze the root cause of this type of mindset and I have a few guesses which I have mentioned many times before, but ultimately I can't get into the mindset of being led around to believe completely absurd stuff like what you mentioned, so I can't experience it firsthand.
It probably comes down to personality types and brain chemistry to determine the type of people that are going to be swayed by this stuff. The online group I'm in which discusses personality types has discussed that before, and a lot of us believe there's certain things, possibly extroversion being a big one, and other terms which would take too long to describe here.
I think being super introvert helps for me, even in school I was never able to be peer-pressured to do anything, nor did I care much about fleeting trends that people engage in. Yet I still had enough friends for my taste and to this day people generally get along with me just fine (IRL, apparently not quite as much on this online thread).
But yeah, it's amazing how instantly nasty people get if you even dare question their worldview. It's like stepping into a church or mosque and telling people you have doubts about what they believe. And yet people aren't self-aware how religious woke-ism has become. There's truly some things that are off, idk if it's a combination of lack of religion, a lack of purpose, isolation, guilt, inabiliity to question the information sources that they trust, or what...
We've come to point where people think destroying cities is okay because it's in the name of social justice. How many buildings need to be burned and looted in order to bring George Floyd back to life?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 30, 2020, 04:46:51 PM
Why do you assume books contain 100 % accurate facts? Books can be bs too.
I don't assume that. Nobody does. I'm critical in my selection and critical in my reading.
And you didn't address the post: if you can't understand why a president can't have his every wish granted with a "supermajority" then why not seek out the reasons this might be? There are now a great many insider and outsider accounts of Obama's struggles to turn his desired policies into reality and the nature of the difficulties.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 30, 2020, 03:05:05 PM
Perhaps if you told us just what you actually believe yourself rather than mixing in some devils advocate stuff that nobody needs or wants then you wont have to feel your views are being misunderstood and you wouldn't be accused of "moving the goalposts"?
Personally I'm only interested in talking with you and not your imaginary friend who believes other stuff and has no accountability for their words, and can only be a pastiche of someone else's opinion.
This is just a role-playing game for him.
For Huggy Bear, too, I suppose.
WH Brushes Off COVID Concerns At Trump Speech: 'Everybody Is Going To Catch This Thing Eventually' (https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/wh-brushes-off-covid-concerns-amid-trumps-maskless-crowd-in-game-of-make-believe)
"It was a mostly maskless crowd, which intermittently chorused the phrase "four more years" in chants from chairs drawn closely together on the South Lawn as President Donald Trump gave his GOP acceptance speech. The absence of social-distancing and flouting of masks seemed to complete the game of make-believe that themed the week's festivities: that the coronavirus pandemic was a nightmare of months ago — a non-reality.
Thursday's mask-flouting crowd that largely ignored social distancing guidelines has been estimated at 1,500 — a gathering far larger than health officials have recommended to curb the spread of the coronavirus.
CNN White House correspondent Jim Acosta reported that a senior White House official had swatted away concerns to him earlier in the evening about the lack of social distancing at the President's acceptance speech, saying, "everybody is going to catch this thing eventually."
The White House official's remark comes as the President and his associates spent the week painting an alternate reality of COVID-19 as either a bygone concern or a very much receding threat."[...]
Quote from: greg on August 30, 2020, 04:52:25 PM
But yeah, it's amazing how instantly nasty people get if you even dare question their worldview.
An old friend of mine posted a typical sort of meme about Rittenhous being guilty or whatever. Some old friend of his put some counter stuff in the thread about it being self-defense (I'm not saying I know either way). Someone told her, "I hope you get shot." My friend then apologized to THEM for having to "deal with HER." Amazing.
Quote from: greg on August 30, 2020, 04:52:25 PM
"What I believe-" maybe this is something useless to explain, but generally the truth is more complicated than just taking one position or the other. There's some truths on the left. There's some truths on the right. Neither side is 100% correct.
This is called both-sideism. It doesn't work when one side (Trump / GOP / FOX) is outright lying, and often making statements that are the opposite of the truth, just to confuse people into turning away from the democratic process.
You're one of those people.
Quotebrain chemistry
I'm guessing you have a degree in Neurology?
QuoteBut yeah, it's amazing how instantly nasty people get if you even dare question their worldview. [...] And yet people aren't self-aware how religious woke-ism has become. [...] We've come to point where people think destroying cities is okay because it's in the name of social justice. How many buildings need to be burned and looted in order to bring George Floyd back to life?
AFAIK the only one who got nasty and started calling people assholes and stuff on this topic, the only one, is you. I don't know if it's brain chemistry but you seem amazingly unself-aware or self-unaware.
There are (again AFAIK) no 'woke' people here, so why bring that up? What you're saying comes awfully close to "owning the libs", which is what altright types relish.
The news, and especially right-wing friendly news brings Portland etc like entire "cities are being destroyed by leftwing mobs". In reality these clashes are contained in just a couple of city blocks and most of the time the demonstrations have been peaceful. Unfortunately occasional lootings are a fact of USA life. Think of it this way: while investment bankers and Trump "charities" loot from above, some people from poor neighbourhoods loot when there's civil unrest. It's the kind of shit that happens when you have constructed a society on the principle of huge inequality.
Nobody is burning buildings to bring Floyd back to life. You're just making that up to ridicule the protests. "Destroying cities" is yet another instance of you faithfully mouthing the Fox / Trump talk, while telling people at great length you have this unique superior brain chemistry to present both sides. In reality you don't do this at all, and you're mostly busy bloviating about yourself and your "lateral thinking" and how limited other people are while you're just copy-pasting rightwing memes.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 30, 2020, 04:56:48 PM
I don't assume that. Nobody does. I'm critical in my selection and critical in my reading.
I am also critical in my information gathering. Instead of books I prefer information from various sources so that I can form my own picture of the reality, a picture that I know is not 100 % perfect, but evolving in time.
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 30, 2020, 04:56:48 PMAnd you didn't address the post: if you can't understand why a president can't have his every wish granted with a "supermajority" then why not seek out the reasons this might be? There are now a great many insider and outsider accounts of Obama's struggles to turn his desired policies into reality and the nature of the difficulties.
Isn't it strange how increases in the military budget are so easy to do no matter who is the president or who controls the house and senate, but when it's about improving the lives or REGULAR people things get suddenly very difficult!! It's the damn CORRUPTION!! Without it this would not be so difficult. They didn't even TRY!! When has there been a vote for medicare for all? A president who is not corrupt could PUSH people in the congress to support medicare for all saying he will campaign AGAINT anyone in the elections who is against medicare for all. That would be
fighting for the regular people. I don't know what books you have been reading, but it seems they try to make apologies for the failures and shortcomings of Obama's presidency. Obama's struggle was that he campaigned as a progressive giving people hope for real change, but couldn't deliver because he is a corporatist. No wonder there are (establishment-approved) books out there trying to explain why he couldn't do this or that while not pointing to the elephant in the room: Corruption.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 11:00:12 PMThe news, and especially right-wing friendly news brings Portland etc like entire "cities are being destroyed by leftwing mobs". In reality these clashes are contained in just a couple of city blocks and most of the time the demonstrations have been peaceful.
More GMG factlessness. With all the free, reliable news available online, one would think posters would take the few minutes needed to read up on basic facts. But what can one expect from posters who appeal to tried, true, and intellectually lazy and dishonest platitudes like so-called "both-sideism"?
Local news: Oregon governor announces plan to bring violence to an end, protect free speech in Portland (https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/oregon-governor-announces-plan-to-bring-violence-to-an-end-protect-free-speech-in-portland/283-f682dd28-b474-4d48-8bd6-2c80ac90e730)
This is odd. The governor's actions do not align with what Herman definitively and very, very knowledgably wrote is happening.
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 11:00:12 PM
This is called both-sideism. It doesn't work when one side (Trump / GOP / FOX) is outright lying, and often making statements that are the opposite of the truth, just to confuse people into turning away from the democratic process.
You're one of those people.
I'm guessing you have a degree in Neurology?
AFAIK the only one who got nasty and started calling people assholes and stuff on this topic, the only one, is you. I don't know if it's brain chemistry but you seem amazingly unself-aware or self-unaware.
There are (again AFAIK) no 'woke' people here, so why bring that up? What you're saying comes awfully close to "owning the libs", which is what altright types relish.
The news, and especially right-wing friendly news brings Portland etc like entire "cities are being destroyed by leftwing mobs". In reality these clashes are contained in just a couple of city blocks and most of the time the demonstrations have been peaceful. Unfortunately occasional lootings are a fact of USA life. Think of it this way: while investment bankers and Trump "charities" loot from above, some people from poor neighbourhoods loot when there's civil unrest. It's the kind of shit that happens when you have constructed a society on the principle of huge inequality.
Nobody is burning buildings to bring Floyd back to life. You're just making that up to ridicule the protests. "Destroying cities" is yet another instance of you faithfully mouthing the Fox / Trump talk, while telling people at great length you have this unique superior brain chemistry to present both sides. In reality you don't do this at all, and you're mostly busy bloviating about yourself and your "lateral thinking" and how limited other people are while you're just copy-pasting rightwing memes.
I'm not going to respond to this idiocy.
All you do is twist my meanings. You don't understand me
at all. You are clueless and you think you know me when you don't. That's why you are an asshole.
Your connections are ridiculous. I might as well say, oh, humans are Nazi, you're human, so you're a Nazi. Wtf is that type of logic?
You don't have a single understanding bone in your body. Instead of listening you just want to slander. Don't talk to me.
Libertarian centrist/anti-far left/anti-far right/anti-authoritarian
But if I criticize the far left, that connects me somehow to being a white supremacist. ::)
I do kinda wish we had some actual KKK members here so I could make fun of them and then be called a black supremacist and then a white supremacist at the same time. ;D
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 05:51:07 AM
Local news: Oregon governor announces plan to bring violence to an end, protect free speech in Portland (https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/oregon-governor-announces-plan-to-bring-violence-to-an-end-protect-free-speech-in-portland/283-f682dd28-b474-4d48-8bd6-2c80ac90e730)
This is odd. The governor's actions do not align with what Herman definitively and very, very knowledgably wrote is happening.
The facts available on line confirm Herman's description. And the governor's actions align very well with what Herman describes.
The governor's main motive is probably to give Trump no excuse to insert his army of CBP agents back into the mix.
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 06:21:28 AM
Libertarian centrist/anti-far left/anti-far right/anti-authoritarian
But if I criticize the far left, that connects me somehow to being a white supremacist. ::)
I do kinda wish we had some actual KKK members here so I could make fun of them and then be called a black supremacist and then a white supremacist at the same time. ;D
But you consistently repeat alt right talking points. And this is not a new thing with you.
Quote from: JBS on August 31, 2020, 06:31:30 AM
But you consistently repeat alt right talking points. And this is not a new thing with you.
Also quite consistently a doofus (just saying)
Quote from: JBS on August 31, 2020, 06:30:12 AMThe facts available on line confirm Herman's description.
Incorrect. I don't expect people who don't live in the Portland area to follow the local news, but protests and violence (including arson) have occurred in multiple portions of downtown, in North Portland, and in multiple locations on the east side. These are irrefutable facts. They have been reported online by multiple sources. Also, there are hundreds of local media reports online. It does take effort to look them up, though.
Quote from: JBS on August 31, 2020, 06:30:12 AMThe governor's main motive is probably to give Trump no excuse to insert his army of CBP agents back into the mix.
Maybe.
Quote from: JBS on August 31, 2020, 06:31:30 AM
But you consistently repeat alt right talking points. And this is not a new thing with you.
Wtf is alt-right? Is that supposed to be the same as anti-far left?
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 07:36:04 AMWtf is alt-right?
A nebulous intellectual construction that can be morphed arbitrarily and capriciously by pseudo-intellectuals to fit the need of the moment to describe people whose views they dislike. The phrase has a nice, vaguely sinister sound to it.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 07:38:52 AM
A nebulous intellectual construction that can be morphed arbitrarily and capriciously by pseudo-intellectuals to fit the need of the moment to describe people whose views they dislike. The phrase has a nice, vaguely sinister sound to it.
Yeah, that's pretty much the vibe I got whenever I've seen it used, but never heard an actual definition of it. Basically would this be considered a strawman?
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 07:49:37 AMBasically would this be considered a strawman?
I don't know if it rises to that level. Also, take care not to expend too much energy on logician type arguments - ie, all the various fallacies you will see people attempt to call out after scurrying to Wikipedia to refresh their memories.
Portland Mayor owns a race-baiting President
https://www.youtube.com/v/_XI6STIT0vo
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 07:55:12 AM
I don't know if it rises to that level. Also, take care not to expend too much energy on logician type arguments - ie, all the various fallacies you will see people attempt to call out after scurrying to Wikipedia to refresh their memories.
Advice noted, thank you.
I googled "alt-right."
alt-right
Quote(in the US) an ideological grouping associated with extreme conservative or reactionary viewpoints, characterized by a rejection of mainstream politics and by the use of online media to disseminate deliberately controversial content.
I see at least two problems in this definition alone which makes it meaningless. This is very nebulous indeed.
edit: I think people are confusing anti-SJW and alt-right. They are not the same thing.
Quote from: Todd on August 30, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
The US is as immune to Communism as it is to Fascism.
I agree, for a while --- ie, for as long as there will be no critical mass of citizens embracing Communism. Can you guarantee this will never happen? ;D
Quote
Of course, despite protestations to the contrary on GMG, Trump is not a Fascist. Fascist is a label misused and abused by all manner of folks for all sorts of reasons, one of them being intellectual laziness.
This I agree without qualifications.
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 07:36:04 AM
Wtf is alt-right? Is that supposed to be the same as anti-far left?
It's an abbreviation from
alternative right and means far-right white nationalists althou the term is ill-defined. The "mirror image" on the left is something like "sjw-left" (social justice warrior left).
The right fearmongers about the far-left, but the US doesn't really have a significant far-left. What the right calls far-left is just "left" demanding social democratic policies rather then full socialism or communism which would be far-left.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 07:25:44 AM
Incorrect. I don't expect people who don't live in the Portland area to follow the local news, but protests and violence (including arson) have occurred in multiple portions of downtown, in North Portland, and in multiple locations on the east side. These are irrefutable facts. They have been reported online by multiple sources. Also, there are hundreds of local media reports online. It does take effort to look them up, though.
Never let some bloody facts stand in the way of your theory. Never ever.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 07:25:44 AM
Incorrect. I don't expect people who don't live in the Portland area to follow the local news, but protests and violence (including arson) have occurred in multiple portions of downtown, in North Portland, and in multiple locations on the east side. These are irrefutable facts.
Those facts do not, however, amount to protests "destroying cities", which is what some people are talking about.
In some aspects it's best to keep the word Fascism for its historical period, the Twenties thru 1945. Perhaps the better clinical term is autocrat, totalitarian and authoritarian, which seem to fit Trump real well.
The idea that the USA is a body that is immune to communism or fascism (= authoritarian leaders) is silly. A country is not a body. It's a metaphor with a very bad history. And if the USA were "immune" to communism, why has there always been such a fuss about it?
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:22:50 AM
Those facts do not, however, amount to protests "destroying cities", which is what some people are talking about.
What is the threshold for "destroying cities"? What amount of arson and violence do you find legit?
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:14:05 AM
I agree, for a while --- ie, for as long as there will be no critical mass of citizens embracing Communism. Can you guarantee this will never happen? ;D
CPUSA, Communist Party USA has 5,000-10,000 members. In 1984 Gus Hall / Angela Davis ticket got 36,386 votes in the presidential election (0.04 % of all votes). I'd say it's pretty sure the US won't become communist in the near future. ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on August 31, 2020, 11:16:46 AM
It's an abbreviation from alternative right and means far-right white nationalists althou the term is ill-defined. The "mirror image" on the left is something like "sjw-left" (social justice warrior left).
The right fearmongers about the far-left, but the US doesn't really have a significant far-left. What the right calls far-left is just "left" demanding social democratic policies rather then full socialism or communism which would be far-left.
There is a geographical factor, I think... mostly in big cities and the west coast (Portland especially). You will not find a lot of far left people in the Southeast, that's for sure.
The problem moreso is that these toxic ideas tend to infest the normies more than the far right ideas. In real life I've encountered instances of both, but there seems to be this sense that SJW far left ideas can be more openly expressed, even though they are nearly the same thing as the toxic far right ideas.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:27:11 AM
What is the threshold for "destroying cities"? What amount of arson and violence do you find legit?
Biden has condemned the violence now, so the sheep are permitted to follow as well.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:14:05 AMI agree, for a while --- ie, for as long as there will be no critical mass of citizens embracing Communism. Can you guarantee this will never happen?
Never? No, of course not. It won't happen in my lifetime, though.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:19:02 AMNever let some bloody facts stand in the way of your theory. Never ever.
The unofficial GMG motto.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:22:50 AMThose facts do not, however, amount to protests "destroying cities", which is what some people are talking about.
Yes, a lot of people are talking about it, I know.
Governor Brown is not at all like Trump, yet even she sees the need for the state to get involved now due to the real and immediate danger faced by the residents of Portland. That is a fact.
And I do wonder, where is the moral outrage here on GMG at the murder of a right winger in Portland. It should garner at least half the righteous wrath scribbled over Kenosha. JK. I know why there is no moral outrage.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:27:11 AM
What is the threshold for "destroying cities"? What amount of arson and violence do you find legit?
You sound a little confused. I was not talking about what I find legit or illegitimate.
I would say that a city that has been destroyed is not a functioning city anymore, surely you know the meaning of the word
destroyed, rubble, rather than a city with a number of blocks one better avoid.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:31:26 AM
You sound a little confused. I was not talking about what I find legit or illegitimate.
I would say that a city that has been destroyed is not a functioning city anymore, surely you know the meaning of the word destroyed, rubble, rather than a city with a number of blocks one better avoid.
More factlessness.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:31:26 AM
You sound a little confused. I was not talking about what I find legit or illegitimate.
I would say that a city that has been destroyed is not a functioning city anymore, surely you know the meaning of the word destroyed, rubble, rather than a city with a number of blocks one better avoid.
I don't think Todd ever complained about Portland being "destroyed" in the sense you mentioned above.
What I think is that arson and violence, even if applied to a limited number of lawful businesses and innocent people, is always wrong --- and for the victims, always look like
their world
is destroyed.
Heck, I do really wonder how you would react to your lawful and peaceful business being arsoned and destroyed in the name of social/racial/whatever justice. But then again I'm sure you're a subtle intellectual who do not stoop to such trivial matters as running a business.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 11:31:07 AM
Never? No, of course not. It won't happen in my lifetime, though.
Nor in mine. Yes, agreed one more time.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:38:22 AMI don't think Todd ever complained about Portland being "destroyed" in the sense you mentioned above.
I gather Herman is referring to something Trump said or wrote. If not, he's merely writing more fiction.
Remember, Portland is a Democrat paradise. All of its elected leaders are Democrats. The residents are living with the consequences of their electoral choices. A good number like what they are seeing.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:38:22 AM
I don't think Todd ever complained about Portland being "destroyed" in the sense you mentioned above.
What I think is that arson and violence, even if applied to a limited number of lawful businesses and innocent people, is always wrong --- and for the victims, always look like their world is destroyed.
Heck, I do really wonder how you would react to your lawful and peaceful business being arsoned and destroyed in the name of social/racial/whatever justice. But then again I'm sure you're a subtle intellectual who do not stoop to such trivial matters as running a business.
I run a business.
What I was signalling, in vain, that hyperbole or exaggeration does not help, unless one's engaging in demagogery.
Yes, it's terrible if a business is burned down. But even if fifty businesses have been burned down (and I note you take it for granted this is exclusively done by social justice protestors, since you have turned a blind eye to reports alt-right types arson places too, hoping the left will blamed), that doesn't mean the city ceases to be.
You're also unaware that the "destroying cities" was in a greg post, to which I responded. I hardly ever respond to the Diner Cop, it's a waste of time.
Good luck jumping to more conclusions! Have fun!
NBA goes on strike and Obama intervenes to stop it. The only strike Obama approves of is a drone strike.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:52:35 AMYes, it's terrible if a business is burned down. But even if fifty businesses have been burned down (and I note you take it for granted this is exclusively done by social justice protestors, since you have turned a blind eye to reports alt-right types arson places too, hoping the left will blamed), that doesn't mean the city ceases to be.
And that, boys and girls, is how mob violence becomes normalized.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:52:35 AM
I run a business.
In The Netherlands, I presume?
Quote
What I was signalling, in vain, that hyperbole or exaggeration does not help, unless one's engaging in demagogery.
This I agree with, but hyperbole or exaggeration is hardly the exclusive domain of the right. Heck, hyperbole and exaggeration have been trademarks of the left ever since the left has been invented --- and so has been demagoguery.
Quote
Yes, it's terrible if a business is burned down. But even if fifty businesses have been burned down (and I note you take it for granted this is exclusively done by social justice protestors, since you have turned a blind eye to reports alt-right types arson places too, hoping the left will blamed), that doesn't mean the city ceases to be.
I'm sorry, but this is typical leftist "humanism": what does it matter that fifty real, flesh-and-blood human lives has been destroyed? Long live Humanity in the abstract, with capital H!
Quote
You're also unaware that the "destroying cities" was in a greg post, to which I responded. I hardly ever respond to the Diner Cop, it's a waste of time.
Who is the Diner Cop? ???
Quote
Good luck jumping to more conclusions! Have fun!
I don't do conclusions, I infer.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:27:11 AM
What is the threshold for "destroying cities"? What amount of arson and violence do you find legit?
Isn't it sufficient to distinguish between "destruction in cities" and the obviously hyperbolic "destroying cities"?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 01:12:07 PM
Isn't it sufficient to distinguish between "destruction in cities" and the obviously hyperbolic "destroying cities"?
Isn't "destruction in cities" bad enough? Do you (plural) really need to have an entire USA city destroyed in order to finally acknowledge that enough is enough, or that at a very least two wrongs do not one right make?
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:14:18 PM
Isn't "destruction in cities" bad enough? Do you (plural) really need to have an entire USA city destroyed in order to finally acknowledge that enough is enough, or that at a very least two wrongs do not one right make?
Andrei, I should have thought it obvious that no one here approves of arson or violence, except perhaps for Huggy Bear, whose Leader incites it.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:14:18 PMIsn't "destruction in cities" bad enough?
No, not for some people. Deviancy has been defined down. Various people on this board now clearly accept violence and destruction as moral behavior.
Andrei, if the question really stirs in your mind: protest is legitimate and necessary. Looting is criminal.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 01:17:18 PM
Andrei, I should have thought it obvious that no one here approves of arson or violence
Rest assured I do not think for a second you approve of arson or violence --- but honestly you seem to make excuses for, or turning a blind eye to, them just because they serve "the good cause".
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 01:18:51 PM
protest is legitimate and necessary. Looting is criminal.
Agreed on both accounts.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:23:47 PMRest assured I do not think for a second you approve of arson or violence --- but honestly you seem to make excuses for, or turning a blind eye to, them just because they serve "the good cause".
What good cause would that be?
Partly for Poju, who is so exercised over Biden "hiding" and his supposed mental decline.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZU4weRWnaAE
Rioting is not protesting, looting is not protesting.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:23:47 PM
Rest assured I do not think for a second you approve of arson or violence --- but honestly you seem to make excuses for, or turning a blind eye to, them just because they serve "the good cause".
In Christian love, I say, Bosh! No such matter!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 01:30:10 PM
In Christian love, I say, Bosh! No such matter!
In the same Christian love I take it, and I'm glad I was mistaken!
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 01:30:44 PM
Oh, well, then sure, anything goes.
Anything goes in love, war and politics. ;D
à propos of nothing, or everything: as a non-American, non-partisan, outsider observer I find it absolutely shocking that the USA has turned into a gerontocracy where a 77-yo will in all probability replace a 74-yo and the rest of the world are crossing their fingers like there's no tomorrow beside those two old men. Ridiculous, really.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:45:22 PM
à propos of nothing, or everything: as a non-American, non-partisan, outsider observer I find it absolutely shocking that the USA has turned into a gerontocracy where a 77-yo will in all probability replace a 74-yo and the rest of the world are crossing their fingers like there's no tomorrow beside those two old men. Ridiculous, really.
Yeah, for sure. I have wondered if the root cause of this is when attack ads on TV became the primary type of political ads (I have heard that they weren't back before my time), but if this is wrong then someone can correct me. Then over time, people were voting
against rather than voting
for most often- thus the bar is lowered. It could also be a money in politics type issue... kinda wonder what others think about that.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:45:22 PM
à propos of nothing, or everything: as a non-American, non-partisan, outsider observer I find it absolutely shocking that the USA has turned into a gerontocracy where a 77-yo will in all probability replace a 74-yo and the rest of the world are crossing their fingers like there's no tomorrow beside those two old men. Ridiculous, really.
I feel ya.
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 01:53:11 PM
people were voting against rather than voting for most often
That's how I always voted:
against rather than
for --- the only guy I voted enthusiastically
for eventually turned out a big, huge and great disappointment. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:57:26 PM
That's how I always voted: against rather than for --- the only guy I voted enthusiastically for eventually turned out a big, huge and great disappointment. ;D
But, greg being lazy, he sees that as a reason not to bother to exercise his right to vote.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 02:02:23 PM
But, greg being lazy, he sees that as a reason not to bother to exercise his right to vote.
If I ended up voting for Trump then it would be your fault.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 02:02:23 PM
But, greg being lazy, he sees that as a reason not to bother to exercise his right to vote.
A right is not an obligation. And if voting were compulsory in Romania I tell you honestly that I would make my vote null and void. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 01:45:22 PM
à propos of nothing, or everything: as a non-American, non-partisan, outsider observer I find it absolutely shocking that the USA has turned into a gerontocracy where a 77-yo will in all probability replace a 74-yo and the rest of the world are crossing their fingers like there's no tomorrow beside those two old men. Ridiculous, really.
Yep. And it's not just at the presidential level. Pelosi is 80. McConnell is 78. Hoyer is 81. Clyburn is 80. In comparison, Chuck Schumer is a youthful 69. Oh, and two-thirds of SCOTUS is above retirement age.
The US is run by a Wall Street Politburo.
Maybe things change in the 2020s.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 02:09:13 PMA right is not an obligation. And if voting were compulsory in Romania I tell you honestly that I would make my vote null and void.
Blabber about the civic duty of voting is just more empty virtue signaling.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
Blabber about the civic duty of voting is just more empty virtue signaling.
That's for sure. And it's a rare type of bi-partisan virtue signaling, which is kinda funny.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
the civic duty of voting
That's bull on stilts.
If I come to the conclusion that, to the best of my knowledge and according to my own earnest conscience, no candidate is fit for the office, voting becomes not a duty but a treason to my fellow countrymen --- for how could I wish upon them a ruler which I personally find abhorrent?
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 02:09:13 PM
A right is not an obligation. And if voting were compulsory in Romania I tell you honestly that I would make my vote null and void. ;D
No, a right is not an obligation. But, if he cannot be bothered to vote, why does he even faff about on this thread? An activist who doesn't vote seems something eunuch-like.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 02:27:34 PM
No, a right is not an obligation.
Glad you agree, but then why assume
greg is lazy just because he doesn't vote? From what I see here, he's quite articulate and intelligent --- more so, honestly, than a lot of people who do vote. ;D
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 02:18:08 PM
That's for sure. And it's a rare type of bi-partisan virtue signaling, which is kinda funny.
Vote if you want to vote; don't vote if you don't want to vote. It's pretty simple. People who excoriate you for not voting are not better than you. They will disagree, of course.
I vote because it is fun. I know my vote means nothing in almost every race. There was one case in my entire life where I know with absolute certainty that my vote made a difference. It was for a local candidate for a local position. I know the vote count for that race because I looked it up, and I know how the few votes in that race mattered. Every other vote in every other election has been irrelevant. But I still always take every opportunity to vote no on every ballot measure that comes to the voters.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 02:22:44 PMIf I come to the conclusion that, to the best of my knowledge and according to my own earnest conscience, no candidate is fit for the office, voting becomes not a duty but a treason to my fellow countrymen --- for how could I wish upon them a ruler which I personally find abhorrent?
I don't know Romanian election law, but here I can write in any candidate I choose if I dislike the putzes on the ballot. I have done that on multiple occasions.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
Glad you agree, but then why assume greg is lazy just because he doesn't vote? From what I see here, he's quite articulate and intelligent --- more so, honestly, than a lot of people who do vote. ;D
He's lazy because he won't do the research he feels he would need, to vote, but, he babbles here.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 02:30:19 PM
I don't know Romanian election law, but here I can write in any candidate I choose if I dislike the putzes on the ballot. I have done that on multiple occasions.
Under Romanian law, if I do that my ballot is counted null and void --- I have no valid choice other than what's printed on the paper, which is fine with me. My one and only electoral principle is
Never Ever the Social-Democrat Party. Since 1990 until today I've always voted a party, or a coalition of parties, which had
Liberal in their name or composition --- but then again Romanian Liberals are very different from USA Liberals.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
Glad you agree, but then why assume greg is lazy just because he doesn't vote? From what I see here, he's quite articulate and intelligent --- more so, honestly, than a lot of people who do vote. ;D
If my heart and brain aligned and someone that was super cool was running for president, I'd vote for them. Otherwise, nah.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 02:30:19 PM
There was one case in my entire life where I know with absolute certainty that my vote made a difference. It was for a local candidate for a local position. I know the vote count for that race because I looked it up, and I know how the few votes in that race mattered. Every other vote in every other election has been irrelevant. But I still always take every opportunity to vote no on every ballot measure that comes to the voters.
Interesting!
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 02:30:19 PM
Vote if you want to vote; don't vote if you don't want to vote. It's pretty simple. People who excoriate you for not voting are not better than you. They will disagree, of course.
I vote because it is fun. I know my vote means nothing in almost every race.
Yeah, Florestan's voting
against is not something I'd do, but I wouldn't shame/ridicule him into not voting, or whatever would be the opposite. I'd just rather let people do what they wanna do, as long as they aren't hurting others.
Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2020, 02:30:19 PM
I vote because it is fun. I know my vote means nothing in almost every race.
Good enough reason to do stuff ;D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 02:32:11 PM
He's lazy because he won't do the research he feels he would need, to vote, but, he babbles here.
I know I said that earlier but I'm not sure I feel that way right now, anymore.
It might be more applicable to elections where something like health care is the primary issue, something I don't know much about. For this election, that doesn't seem to be the primary issue, so if I were to vote, say
against someone, it would be based on current events more likely.
But I'd rather vote for someone, rather than against. To me (it may not be the same way to others) a vote is indicative of support, not voting against, so if I voted against someone I'd just have a sticky/scummy feeling of dishonesty. (not saying people who vote against are dishonest, just describing my own feelings here)
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 02:43:50 PM
Florestan's voting against is not something I'd do
Why?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 02:27:34 PM
An activist who doesn't vote seems something eunuch-like.
Is
greg an activist? If yes, then what for?
Imho, democracy as in "one person, one secret ballot" is the most irresponsible regime ever. If the President/Prime-Minister manages the country succesfully, everyone can boast "Brave guy! I voted him!'. If they screw it big time, everyone can say "Bastard! Never voted this scumbag!" In both cases there's no way to tell the truth from the lie.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 02:52:26 PM
Why?
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 02:43:50 PM
But I'd rather vote for someone, rather than against. To me (it may not be the same way to others) a vote is indicative of support, not voting against, so if I voted against someone I'd just have a sticky/scummy feeling of dishonesty. (not saying people who vote against are dishonest, just describing my own feelings here)
I'll be more specific here.
If there were an option to vote against (without having to vote for the other party), I might actually vote against, if possible, for both. ;D That would be genuine, because I don't like both guys.
But the only way right now to "vote against" is to vote for the other party. Then it would feel like I'm supporting the other party, though, even though I'm not (on the inside), though on the outside technically I am supporting them with a vote....
You may have your own reasons to vote against. It doesn't make you dishonest or scummy. Do what you want. Just wouldn't feel right for me personally. I think voting (as well as everything else) means something different to everyone, so they should be free to approach it however they wish.
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 03:11:48 PM
I'll be more specific here.
If there were an option to vote against (without having to vote for the other party), I might actually vote against, if possible, for both. ;D That would be genuine, because I don't like both guys.
But the only way right now to "vote against" is to vote for the other party. Then it would feel like I'm supporting the other party, though, even though I'm not (on the inside), though on the outside technically I am supporting them with a vote....
Thanks. I see. Well, I'm accustomed to a multiple-party system so my perspective is quite different.
Quote
You may have your own reasons to vote against. It doesn't make you dishonest or scummy. Do what you want. Just wouldn't feel right for me personally. I think voting (as well as everything else) means something different to everyone, so they should be free to approach it however they wish.
Agreed 100% to all the accounts above.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 03:01:45 PM
Imho, democracy as in "one person, one secret ballot" is the most irresponsible regime ever. If the President/Prime-Minister manages the country succesfully, everyone can boast "Brave guy! I voted him!'. If they screw it big time, everyone can say "Bastard! Never voted this scumbag!" In both cases there's no way to tell the truth from the lie.
"The most irresponsible regime ever"?
What would you see as ideal?
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 31, 2020, 03:37:25 PM
"The most irresponsible regime ever"?
What would you see as ideal?
There's no ideal.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 03:39:39 PM
There's no ideal.
What would you prefer? What would be "least irresponsible"?
And you must realize surely that ballots are secret for better reasons than the cynical one you claim above?
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 31, 2020, 03:43:19 PM
And you must realize surely that ballots are secret for better reasons than the cynical one you claim above?
Here we go again.
Count me out.
Biden: Violence by anyone is bad.
Trump: Violence by anyone except my supporters is bad.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 02:54:28 PM
Is greg an activist? If yes, then what for?
he acts like an alt-right channel
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 03:54:51 PM
Biden: Violence by anyone is bad.
Trump: Violence by anyone except my supporters is bad.
Trump is an idiot but if the only chance the world at large has is replacing an idiot with a decrepit, then may God preserve us all!
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 03:44:58 PM
Here we go again.
Count me out.
Bravo. Make an outrageous and provocative assertion and refuse to explain or elaborate.
It's just me being difficult and twisting your words again, isn't it?
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 03:58:49 PM
Trump is an idiot but if the only chance the world at large has is replacing an idiot with a decrepit, then may God preserve us all!
Where did you "learn" that Biden is "decrepit"?
Watch for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZU4weRWnaAE
Quote from: SimonNZ on August 31, 2020, 03:59:03 PM
Bravo. Make an outrageous and provocative assertion and refuse to explain or elaborate.
It's just me being difficult and twisting your words again, isn't it?
No. It's just that there's no ideal regime and I don't prefer this to that. Aristocracy bad, democracy bad, anarchy bad. "History has proved time and again that governing is a task which far exceeds man's ability". What more do you want me to say?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 04:02:23 PM
Where did you "learn" that Biden is "decrepit"?
Watch for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZU4weRWnaAE
Oh, Karl, for God's sake, he's 77-yo! Is he the best and brigthtest that the Democrat Party can offer? If no, then why him? If yes, then may God help us all!
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 04:07:43 PM
Oh, Karl, for God's sake, he's 77-yo! Is he the best and brigthtest that the Democrat Party can offer? If no, then why him? If yes, then may God help us all!
If it's on TV, it's real. Ask Donald Trump.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 04:07:43 PM
Oh, Karl, for God's sake, he's 77-yo! Is he the best and brigthtest that the Democrat Party can offer? If no, then why him? If yes, then may God help us all!
So, he's 77 = he's decrepit. Got it.
A MAGA flag-waving Trump supporter atop a truck heckles Biden, who waves kindly and says "don't jump."
Man seems on the ball to me.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 04:07:43 PM
Oh, Karl, for God's sake, he's 77-yo! Is he the best and brigthtest that the Democrat Party can offer? If no, then why him? If yes, then may God help us all!
I was going to say both parties picked the worst. But then I thought that it's rather easier to be the worst than the best. Tump is really good at being the worst. Maybe he gets points on selling but I've talked to enough glib salesmen to see it's not that hard even though it takes a certain greasy charm and confidence. And for every empty-suited salesman there's a sucker.
On the other hand, Biden speaks with some authority and a definite ability to talk about history, political ideas, real policy, etc. that doesn't make him a great candidate, it's rather normal. He's not the "best" - by whatever rubric you use. He's ok at some things and less so at others. But being good is a wide category in politics.
Ok. I'm almost certain this post made no sense. I'll post it anyway. Maybe there's something in it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 04:50:26 PM
A MAGA flag-waving Trump supporter atop a truck heckles Biden, who waves kindly and says "don't jump."
Man seems on the ball to me.
More on the ball than the heckler, who was yelling that Biden needed to come out of his basement, and didn't bother to at least rephrase it in light of the fact that Biden was certainly not in a basement at that moment.
Quote from: JBS on August 31, 2020, 05:34:20 PM
More on the ball than the heckler, who was yelling that Biden needed to come out of his basement, and didn't bother to at least rephrase it in light of the fact that Biden was certainly not in a basement at that moment.
As Nick Danger said, that heckler didn't get there by being smart....
In this PBS interview a former asst. U.S. attorney general argues, citing historical precedents, that, although the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, private militias like those inciting violence in Kenosha and Portland are afforded no such protection: She gets there by about 3:30 if you want to skip ahead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcOBQ05-feE
Quote from: BasilValentine on August 31, 2020, 06:53:53 PM
In this PBS interview a former asst. U.S. attorney general argues, citing historical precedents, that, although the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, private militias like those inciting violence in Kenosha and Portland are afforded no such protection: She gets there by about 3:30 if you want to skip ahead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcOBQ05-feE
that's why "defund the police" sounds so silly. I know I know, it's reform. Fine. I'm all for it. But be careful about wanting police to step back. Let's remember that Blake is a rapist, Brooks was drunk behind the wheel of a car, gave one cop a concussion and grabbed the other's taser, and that Floyd had sold drugs and held a gun on a pregnant woman. It's doesn't mean they deserved to be shot or choked, particularly Floyd who appears to have been murdered. The militias are dangerous and so are criminals like the ones mentioned above. It's bourgeois privilege to want to get rid of cops. Pulling back the cops is going to hurt communities of every ethnic background. This isn't just an opinion, it's backed up by research. Anyone can look up the work of Harvard economist Roland Fryer and see what I'm talking about.
Quote from: milk on August 31, 2020, 08:35:41 PM
that's why "defund the police" sounds so silly. I know I know, it's reform. Fine. I'm all for it. But be careful about wanting police to step back. Let's remember that Blake is a rapist, Brooks was drunk behind the wheel of a car, gave one cop a concussion and grabbed the other's taser, and that Floyd had sold drugs and held a gun on a pregnant woman. It's doesn't mean they deserved to be shot or choked, particularly Floyd who appears to have been murdered. The militias are dangerous and so are criminals like the ones mentioned above. It's bourgeois privilege to want to get rid of cops. Pulling back the cops is going to hurt communities of every ethnic background. This isn't just an opinion, it's backed up by research. Anyone can look up the work of Harvard economist Roland Fryer and see what I'm talking about.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 08:41:45 PM
https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx
You're gonna blow some minds with that link. It reminds me of the hilarious Chappelle show sketch, "I know black people."
It Turns Out the Troops Like Biden and Dislike Trump to the Same Degree Everyone Else Does
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/poll-troops-prefer-biden-over-trump.html
Like father like son and the apple and so forth...
Can you imagine any of tump's children serving in the military? Those spoiled richies never earned anything anywhere.
Quote from: greg on August 31, 2020, 02:03:18 PM
If I ended up voting for Trump then it would be your fault.
That's why only adults have the vote.
But rest assured, it's written all over your posting history you'd vote Trump if you didn't have to get out of your home to vote. All your "brain chemicals" yearn for the big man.
Just because we understand the cause of the looting does not mean that all of us approve of the looting.
Of course there are a few nut jobs that approve of the violence. No one has to remind us. We know that. Stop underestimating the common sense of most of the people here.
I am tired of the few here who constantly use the irresponsible actions of some to invalidated our legitimate concerns. It makes me think that these members really support Trump and are using immature sarcasm to cover their true feelings.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 04:47:50 PM
So, he's 77 = he's decrepit.
No. I even take back "decrepit". But I stand by USA having become a ridiculous gerontocracy.
The thing with the looting and arson is it's assumed BLM folks are responsible. But rightwing provocateurs are smashing windows and setting cars on fire, too, knowing leftwingers will be blamed for it. Think Umbrella Man in Minn.
In addition Fox and the GOP are airing clips of burning streets that turn out to be stock videos coming from other places in the world. This is where these stories about "destroying cities" come from. From France or elsewhere.
It's all propaganda.
Quote from: milk on August 31, 2020, 08:35:41 PM
that's why "defund the police" sounds so silly. I know I know, it's reform. Fine. I'm all for it. But be careful about wanting police to step back. Let's remember that Blake is a rapist, Brooks was drunk behind the wheel of a car, gave one cop a concussion and grabbed the other's taser, and that Floyd had sold drugs and held a gun on a pregnant woman. It's doesn't mean they deserved to be shot or choked, particularly Floyd who appears to have been murdered. The militias are dangerous and so are criminals like the ones mentioned above. It's bourgeois privilege to want to get rid of cops. Pulling back the cops is going to hurt communities of every ethnic background. This isn't just an opinion, it's backed up by research. Anyone can look up the work of Harvard economist Roland Fryer and see what I'm talking about.
I don't want police to step back and I don't wish to see them defunded. I want them to do their jobs, which, in recent cases, should have meant dispersing or arresting armed militia groups at protests, rather than encouraging them. The Kenosha police all but invited at least one militia group that wrote to them in advance indicating their intention to appear. This went against long-standing department policy. Moreover, they provided material support for the militias rather than doing something as basic as asking a child with a gun for ID to verify he was legally carrying before he ended up killing two people with it. Instead: "Here kid, have some water. We appreciate you."
The Brooks and Blake cases are examples of police incompetence (among other things). The answer isn't defunding, it's better training and better screening of applicants. The Floyd case is the other side of the coin: The officer who murdered Floyd was a police trainer.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:45:48 PMIn addition Fox and the GOP are airing clips of burning streets that turn out to be stock videos coming from other places in the world. This is where these stories about "destroying cities" come from. From France or elsewhere.
KPTV, KATU, KGW, and KOIN all broadcast the Portland riots live every night. No need for stock footage in Stumptown. Fresh footage of lefty arson, looting, intimidation, and destruction gets broadcast every night, usually with young female reporters only yards away from the action. I dare say WBBM, WTMJ, WMAQ, and WITI do the same. People with internet connections can look up the hundreds of reports filed with a few mouse clicks. However, doing so would detract from the ability to generate some home-grown propaganda. The Dutch variety is particularly flimsy, but some others on the board may have some actual writing talent and can take up the call.
As to the Beaver State, turns out Governor Brown's plan to restore the peace has a wee bit of a problem. She forgot to include the sheriffs of Washington and Clackamas counties in her planning, and, exactly like Donald Trump, she issued an order without actually having the power to do so. The Sheriffs not so politely declined to assist. Womp womp.
https://www.businessinsider.nl/rnc-used-video-of-barcelona-in-video-about-us-protests-2020-8?international=true&r=US
from the "lefty" Business Insider.
Quote from: Florestan on August 31, 2020, 11:33:00 PM
No. I even take back "decrepit". But I stand by USA having become a ridiculous gerontocracy.
It's got to change, yes.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:45:48 PM
The thing with the looting and arson is it's assumed BLM folks are responsible. But rightwing provocateurs are smashing windows and setting cars on fire, too, knowing leftwingers will be blamed for it. Think Umbrella Man in Minn.
In addition Fox and the GOP are airing clips of burning streets that turn out to be stock videos coming from other places in the world. This is where these stories about "destroying cities" come from. From France or elsewhere.
It's all propaganda.
Seems Mr Brain Chemicals is just an agitprop funnel
Quote from: Herman on September 01, 2020, 05:08:07 AM
https://www.businessinsider.nl/rnc-used-video-of-barcelona-in-video-about-us-protests-2020-8?international=true&r=US
from the "lefty" Business Insider.
Yep, Dutch propaganda is flimsy.
.
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:02:18 PM
That's why only adults have the vote.
But rest assured, it's written all over your posting history you'd vote Trump if you didn't have to get out of your home to vote. All your "brain chemicals" yearn for the big man.
The point
--------------
Your head
The point would be to piss off whoever is pestering me to vote. Doesn't matter which side. Ridiculing my choice to not vote is just being a judgemental ass.
So now that you get the point, don't talk to me.
Quote from: greg on September 01, 2020, 05:22:30 AM
The point
--------------
Your head
The point would be to piss off whoever is pestering me to vote. Doesn't matter which side. Ridiculing my choice to not vote is just being a judgemental ass.
So now that you get the point, don't talk to me.
Herman, like many others on this board, is here merely to virtue signal.
Our whackjob Prez
Trump's New Conspiracy Theory (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-new-conspiracy-theory/)
Former Bush speech writer David Frum in The Atlantic about Trump's view of Red and Blue America:
"Since we are [in Trump's view] two countries, we can have two sets of laws and rules: one for friends, another for enemies. That's why so many prominent Trump supporters can look at the shooting in Kenosha and perceive the gunman, who went to a city where he did not live with an AR-15-style rifle in hand, as acting in self-defense. The gunman had legitimate rights that must be respected. The dead men did not, and neither did all the many victims this year of police shootings. If those victims had criminal records, then they were criminals—unlike, say, Michael Flynn, who remains a rights-bearing American despite his criminal record. Two countries, two classes of citizen, two systems of law.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/trump-secessionist-top/615847/
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 01, 2020, 04:04:56 AM
I don't want police to step back and I don't wish to see them defunded. I want them to do their jobs, which, in recent cases, should have meant dispersing or arresting armed militia groups at protests, rather than encouraging them. The Kenosha police all but invited at least one militia group that wrote to them in advance indicating their intention to appear. This went against long-standing department policy. Moreover, they provided material support for the militias rather than doing something as basic as asking a child with a gun for ID to verify he was legally carrying before he ended up killing two people with it. Instead: "Here kid, have some water. We appreciate you."
The Brooks and Blake cases are examples of police incompetence (among other things). The answer isn't defunding, it's better training and better screening of applicants. The Floyd case is the other side of the coin: The officer who murdered Floyd was a police trainer.
I bet there are more police departments cozy with these militia-type organizations. That's unacceptable. Maybe there is some national legislation that can penalize it somehow.
For police abuse:
On the one hand, more can certainly be done. On the other hand, there are going to be these incidents. It's a big country with a lot of guns and a lot of cops. Even the incidents people are freaking out about are not all clear-cut. Take the Brooks shooting. That's the Atlanta one? Those cops were in a life and death struggle with him; he gave one cop a concussion. He grabbed the taser and turned to fire it. They'll never convict that cop; nor should they. Brooks was a pretty bad guy, judging from his criminal history. I can see how the media tried to justify his actions by considering the penalty he was facing in terms of the revocation of his parole. But we still have a system that penalizes violent criminality. At least we have it until BLM get their way.
Anyway, I agree with you about training and competence and getting right-wing militias away from police work - of course.
Quote from: milk on September 01, 2020, 07:39:49 AM
training and competence and getting right-wing militias away from police work - of course.
That's going to be next to impossible with the current president.
Quote from: milk on September 01, 2020, 07:39:49 AM
I bet there are more police departments cozy with these militia-type organizations. That's unacceptable. Maybe there is some national legislation that can penalize it somehow.
For police abuse:
On the one hand, more can certainly be done. On the other hand, there are going to be these incidents. It's a big country with a lot of guns and a lot of cops. Even the incidents people are freaking out about are not all clear-cut. Take the Brooks shooting. That's the Atlanta one? Those cops were in a life and death struggle with him; he gave one cop a concussion. He grabbed the taser and turned to fire it. They'll never convict that cop; nor should they. Brooks was a pretty bad guy, judging from his criminal history. I can see how the media tried to justify his actions by considering the penalty he was facing in terms of the revocation of his parole. But we still have a system that penalizes violent criminality. At least we have it until BLM get their way.
Anyway, I agree with you about training and competence and getting right-wing militias away from police work - of course.
The most critical issue, as far as I'm concerned, goes along with Herman's recognition of two Americas with two different systems of law enforcement. The police have been coddling terrorist hate groups like the Proud Boys, whose record of violence is a matter of public record, and focusing enforcement measures on largely peaceful protestors. For example, when curfew time comes who do they go after first? The ones with the fire power and record of violence or the easier targets with whose ideology they disagree? Right! Look at Kenosha. They failed to disperse the armed right wingers, instead enlisting them in their efforts. Officers whose priority is public order and safety would not do this. Theirs are politically motivated choices favoring Trump supporters and white supremacists. Why? Look at Michael German's recent work with the Brennan Center for analysis of the prevalence of white supremacists in law enforcement and the failure of police departments in many states and municipalities to police their own.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 01, 2020, 08:24:35 AM
The most critical issue, as far as I'm concerned, goes along with Herman's recognition of two Americas with two different systems of law enforcement. The police have been coddling terrorist hate groups like the Proud Boys, whose record of violence is a matter of public record, and focusing enforcement measures on largely peaceful protestors. For example, when curfew time comes who do they go after first? The ones with the fire power and record of violence or the easier targets with whose ideology they disagree? Right! Look at Kenosha. They failed to disperse the armed right wingers, instead enlisting them in their efforts. Officers whose priority is public order and safety would not do this. Theirs are politically motivated choices favoring Trump supporters and white supremacists. Why? Look at Michael German's recent work with the Brennan Center for analysis of the prevalence of white supremacists in law enforcement and the failure of police departments in many states and municipalities to police their own.
Sounds like a way oversimplification. The biggest problem in many communities is crime. That's not to say that these militia aren't connected to cops in some places. I doubt it's important in Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore.
Common stares dictates that there are nut jobs on both ends of the spectrum aggravating the situation.
The dilemma we are in is that one of them is the President.
If the President was a Democrat who behaved like Trump, the right would be having a tantrum.
Anyone who breaks the law, right or left, should suffer the consequences.
I have concerns over the behavior of the police. Just because there are some elements on the left who are behaving badly do not invalidate those concerns.
One can easily come up with exceptions that prove nothing.
Death to America Chants in Oakland California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=125ottl1KWE
Lol. Ok.
I wonder which result will lead to more unrest and tensions. The worst will probably be a narrow/contested win for either side. Let's not hope for this.
But what would lead to more violence and unrest, a (more or less clear) Trump win or a Biden win? As many of the current riots are in "blue" cities, would Biden as president really make them stop? Would Trump supporters go for full scale vigilantism if he loses?
The Pathetic Both-Sidesism of Republican Inc. (https://thebulwark.com/the-pathetic-both-sidesism-of-republican-inc/)
Quote from: milk on September 01, 2020, 08:37:23 AM
Sounds like a way oversimplification. The biggest problem in many communities is crime. That's not to say that these militia aren't connected to cops in some places. I doubt it's important in Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore.
High crime rates are a symptom of extreme inequality.
I would also say that the pandemic is a big problem.
Trump wants you to look away from his performance in the pandemic and talk about crime in inner cities.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 01, 2020, 10:02:27 AMBut what would lead to more violence and unrest, a (more or less clear) Trump win or a Biden win?
A Trump win. Lefties have already lost their shit. If Trump wins, they will go absolutely cuckoo bananas.
Quote from: Todd on September 01, 2020, 02:01:34 PM
A Trump win. Lefties have already lost their shit. If Trump wins, they will go absolutely cuckoo bananas.
Really? You think so? I had no idea that lefties would be upset if Trump wins.
So what? If Biden wins the righties will go cuckoo bananas.
"Cognitive decline"? From this distance I was particularly impressed by the text and delivery of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU4weRWnaAE
Joe Biden Pittsburgh Speech Transcript August 31 (https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/joe-biden-pittsburgh-speech-transcript-august-31)
"I want to thank Carnegie Mellon for providing this space and all the promise it holds for future jobs in the high tech world. In recent days, we've had a lot of talk about who's going where and how I've decided to come to Pittsburgh to talk a little bit about what's going on right now. In the early days of World War II, Franklin Roosevelt told the country, and I quote, "The news is going to get worse and worse before it gets better and better. And the American people deserve to have it straight from the shoulder." Straight from the shoulder. The job of a president is to tell it straight from the shoulder, tell the truth, to be candid, to face facts, to lead, not to insight. That's why I'm speaking to you today. The incumbant president is incapable of telling us the truth, incapable of facing the facts and incapable of healing. He doesn't want to shed light, he wants to generate heat and he's stroking violence in our cities.
This is a tragic fact of the matter, how he's dealing with this perilous hour in our nation. And now we have to stand against violence in every form it takes. Violence we've seen again and again and again, of unwarranted police shooting, excessive force, seven bullets in the back of Jacob Blake. Knee on the neck of George Floyd, killing of Breonna Taylor in her own apartment, violence of extremists and opportunists, right wing militias... And to derail any hope and support for progress, the senseless violence of looting and burning and destruction of property. I want to make it absolutely clear, so I'm going to be very clear about all of this, rioting is not protesting. Looting is not protesting. Setting fires is not protesting. None of this is protesting. It's lawlessness, plain and simple. And those who do it should be prosecuted. Violence will not bring change, it will only bring destruction. It's wrong in every way. It divides instead of unites, destroys businesses, only hurts the working families that serve the community. It makes things worse across the board, not better.
It's not what Dr. King or John Lewis taught and it must end. Fires are burning and we have a president who fans the flames rather than fighting the flames. But we must not burn, we have to build. This president, long ago, forfeited any moral leadership in this country. He can't stop the violence because for years he's fomented it. He may believe mouthing the words law and order makes him strong. But his failure to call on his own supporters to stop acting as an armed militia in this country shows how weak he is. Does anyone believe there'll be less violence in America if Donald Trump is reelected?
We need justice in America. We need safety in America. We're facing multiple crises. Crises that under Donald Trump have kept multiplying. COVID, economic devastation, unwarranted police violence, [inaudible 00:03:48] white nationalists, a reckoning on race, declining faith in the birth of the right American future. There's no reason why we can't just do so much more than we're doing. The common threat, the incumbent president who makes things worse, not better, an incumbent president who sows chaos rather than providing order. An incumbent president who fails in the basic duty of the job, which is to advance the truth that all of us know, that we're all born with the right to life, Liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That's right. All of us, the moms and dads in Scranton, where I grew up, who have worked and scraped for everything they've ever gotten in life.
The auto worker in Michigan, who still makes the best automobile in the world, single mom in Ohio, working three jobs just to stay afloat who'll do anything for her child. Retired veteran in Florida who gave everything he had to this country. And now just wants us to honor the promises made to him. [inaudible 00:04:58] salesperson who just lost their job. A store closing after 194 years in business. Nurses and doctors in Wisconsin who've seen so much sickness, so much death in the past six months. And they wonder how much more can they take, but still they muster up the courage to take care of those patients in this pandemic while risking their own lives. Researchers in Minnesota who woke up this morning determined to find a breakthrough in treating cancer and who'll do the same thing tomorrow and the day after and the day after, because she'll never give up. White, Black, Latino, Asian American, Native Americans, everybody, I'm in this campaign for you. No matter your color, no matter your zip code, no matter your politics.
When I think of the presidency, I don't think about myself. It isn't about my brand. It's about you, the American people. We can do better and we have to do better. I promise you this. We will do better. The road back begins now in this campaign. You know me, you know my heart, you know my story, my family story. Ask yourself, do I look like a radical socialist with a soft spot for rioters? Really? I want a safe America, safe from COVID, safe from crime and looting, safe from racially motivated violence, safe from bad cops. Let me be crystal clear, safe from four more years of Donald Trump. I look at this violence and I see lives and communities and the dreams of small businesses being destroyed and the opportunity for real progress on issues of race and police reform and justice being put to the test. Donald Trump looks at this violence and he sees a political lifeline. Having failed to protect this nation from the virus that has killed more than 180,000 Americans so far, Trump posts an all caps tweet, screaming, "Law and order," to save his campaign.
One of his closest political advisers in the White House doesn't even bother to speak in code, just comes out and she says it. "The more chaos, violence, the better it is for Trump's reelection." Just think about that. This is a sitting president of the United States of America. He's supposed to be protecting this country, but instead he's rooting for chaos and violence. The simple truth is Donald Trump failed to protect America. So now he's trying to scare America. Since Donald Trump and Mike Prince can't run on their record that has seen more American death to a virus, this virus, then the nation suffered in every war since Korea combined, since they can't run on their economy that has seen more people lose their jobs than any time since the Great Depression, since they can't run on a simple proposition of sending our children safely back to school, since they have no agenda or vision for a second term, Trump and Pence are running on this.
And I find it fascinating. "You won't be safe in Joe Biden's America." And what's their proof? The violence we're seeing in Donald Trump's America. These are not images of some imagined Joe Biden America in the future. These are images of Donald Trump's America today. He keeps telling you if only he was president, it wouldn't happen. If he was president. He keeps telling us that he was president you'd feel safe. Well he is president. Whether he knows it or not, and it is happening, it's getting worse. And you know why? Because Donald Trump adds fuel to every fire because he refuses to even acknowledge that there's a racial justice problem in America because he won't stand up to any form of violence. He's got no problem with right-wing militia, white supremacists, and vigilantes with assault weapons often better armed than the police. Often in the middle of the violence at the protestors and aiming it there. And because tens of millions of Americans simply don't trust this president to respect their rights, to hear their concerns or to protect them. It doesn't have to be this way.
When President Obama and I were in the White House, we had to defend federal property. We did it. We didn't see it. You didn't see us whipping up fears around the deployment of secret federal troops. We just did our job and the federal property was protected. When president Obama and I were in office, we didn't look at cities as Democratic or Republican run. These are American cities. But Trump doesn't seem himself as president for all of America. Frankly, I believe if I were president today, the country would be safer and we'd be seeing a lot less violence, and here's why. I have said we must address the issue of racial injustice. I've personally spoken to George Floyd's family, and to Jacob Blake's family. I know their pain. And so do you. I know the justice they seek and so do you. They've told us, "None of this violence respects or honors George or Jacob." I believe it can bring these folks fighting for racial justice to the table.
I've worked with police in this country for many years. I know most cops are good, decent people. I know how they risk their lives every time they put that shield on and go out the door. I'm confident I can bring the police to the table as well. I'd make sure every mayor and governor had the support they needed from the federal government. But I wouldn't be looking to use the United States military against our own people. If I were president, my language would be less divisive, I'd be looking to lower the temperature in this country, not raise it. I'd be looking to unite the nation. But look, if Donald Trump wants to ask the question, "Who will keep you safer as president?" Let's answer that question. First, some simple facts. When I was vice president, violent crime fell 15% in this country. We did it without chaos and disorder.
And yes, we did it with democratic mayors in most of the major cities in this country. The murder right now is up 26% across the nation this year under Donald Trump. Do you really feel safer under Donald Trump? COVID has taken this year, just since the outbreak, has taken more than 100... Look, the lives, when you think about it, more lives this year than any other year for the past 100 years. More than 180,000 lives in just six months, an average of 1,000 people dying every day in the month of August. Do you really feel safe under Donald Trump? Mr. Trump, you want to talk about fear? Do you know what people are afraid of in America? Afraid they're going to get COVID. They're afraid they're going to get sick and die. And that is in no small part because of you. We're now on track to more than 200,000 deaths in this country due to COVID. More than 100,000 seniors have lost their lives to the virus.
More cops have died from COVID this year than have been killed on patrol. Nearly one in six small businesses have closed in this country today. Do oyu really feel safer under Trump? What about Trump's plan to destroy the Affordable Care Act, and with it, the protections for preexisting conditions that impacts more than 100 million Americans? Does that make you feel safer? Or how about Trump's plan to defund social security? The social security administration's chief actuary just released a report saying that if a plan like the one Trump is proposing goes into effect, the social security trust fund would be, and I quote, "Permanently depleted by the middle of calendar year 2023, with no ability to pay benefits thereafter." To put it plainly, Trump's plan with wipe out social security period. Do you feel safer and more secure now? The fear that reigns under this president doesn't stop at our shores. The Kremlin has put bounties on the heads of American soldiers.
And instead of telling Vladimir Putin that there'd be no putting up with this, that there'd be a heavy price to pay if they dare touch an American soldier, this president doesn't even bring up the subject in his multiple phone calls with Putin. It's been reported that Russian forces just attacked American troops in Syria, injuring our service members. Did you hear the president say a single word? Did he lift one finger? Never before has an American president played such a subservient role to a Russian leader. It's not only dangerous, it's humiliating and embarrassing for the rest of the world to see, it weakens us. Not even American troops can feel safer under Trump. Donald Trump's role as a bystander in his own presidency extends to the economic plan and pain. The plan he doesn't have and the pain being felt by millions of Americans. He said this week, and I quote, "You better vote for me, or you're going to have the greatest depression you've ever seen." Does he not understand and see the tens of millions of people who've had to file for unemployment this year so far?
The people who won't be able to make next month's rent payment? The people who lost wages or the cost of groceries have gone up dramatically? President Obama and I stopped a depression in 2009. We took a bad economy that was falling and turned it around. Trump took a good economy and drove it back into the ditch. Through his failure to get COVID under control, his failure to pull together the leaders in Congress, his failure to deliver real relief to working people, has made our country's economic situation so much worse, so much worse than it had to be. We talk about safety and security. We should talk about basic security of being able to look your child in the eye and tell them, "Everything's going to be okay. Don't worry, honey. We're not going to lose our home. We're going to be able to put food on the table. It's going to be okay."
It's the job of the president. I've laid out an agenda for economic recovery that will restore a sense of security for working families. We won't just build things back the way they were before. We're going to build them back better with good paying jobs. Building our nation's roads, bridges, solar rays, windmills with investments in our healthcare and childcare workers so they get the pay and dignity they deserve while easing the financial burdens on millions of families with a clean energy strategy that has a place for the energy workers right here in Western Pennsylvania. I am not banning fracking. Let me say that again. I am not banning fracking. No matter how many times Donald Trump lies about me, the future, that's what this is all about. We hear Donald Trump's self centered rants and riffs, but the voice of Americans should be heard. And one you should listen to is Julia Jackson, the mother of Jacob Blake. Hers is a voice of courage, character and wisdom.
Looking at the damage that has been done in her city, she said, "The violence and destruction doesn't reflect my son or my family." These are the words of a mom, a mother whose son had just been shot seven times in front of his children, badly injured, paralyzed, perhaps permanently. And even as she seeks justice for her son, she's pleading for an end to the violence and for this nation to heal. She said she was praying for her son. Then she said something to me that that surprised me. She said she was praying for all police officers. She said was already been praying for America even before her son was shot. She's publicly asked all of us to examine our hearts, citizens, elected officials, the police, all of us. And then she said, this. "We need healing. More than anything, that's what we need to do as a nation. We need to heal."
Our current president wants you to live in fear, he advertises himself as a figure of order. He isn't, and he's not been part of the solution thus far. He's part of the problem. The problem, I, as president, will give you my all resolve to stop. I'll deal with the virus, I'll deal with the economic crisis, and I'll work to bring a quality and opportunity to everyone. We've arrived at a moment in this campaign, we all know, including the press in front of me, knew we'd get to. The moment when Donald Trump would be so desperate, he'd do anything to hold onto power. Donald Trump has been a toxic presence in our nation for four years. Poisoning how we talk to one another, poisoning how we treat one another, poisoning the values this nation has always held dear, poisoning our very democracy. Now, in just a little over 60 days, we have a decision to make. Will we rid ourselves of this toxin or will we make it a permanent part of our nation's character?
As Americans, I'm confident we believe in honesty and decency, treating everyone with dignity and respect, giving everyone a fair shot, leaving no one behind, giving hate no safe harbor, and demonizing no one. We, up to now, always recognize there's something bigger than ourselves, that's what we're about. Trump doesn't seem to believe in any of that. Look, I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, America is an idea. It's the most powerful idea in the history of the world. And I believe it beats in the hearts of the people of this country. All men and women are created equal and they deserve to be treated equally.
Trump has sought to remake this nation in his image. Selfish, angry, dark, and divisive. This is not who we are. At her best, america's always been, and if I have anything to do it, it will be again, generous, confident, an optimistic nation full of hope and resolve. Donald Trump is determined to instill fear in America. That's what his entire campaign for the president has come down to, fear. But I believe Americans are stronger than that. I believe we'll be guided by the words of Pope John Paul II, words drawn from the scriptures. Be not afraid, be not afraid. Fear never builds the future, but hope does. And building the future is what America does, what we've always done. In fact, it's what we have done best and continue to do best. This is the United States of America. There's not a single thing beyond our capacity when we decide to do it together. So let's get together. I want to thank you all. May God bless you, and may God protect our troops.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 01, 2020, 05:34:05 PM
Really? You think so? I had no idea that lefties would be upset if Trump wins.
So what? If Biden wins the righties will go cuckoo bananas.
I hope tump loses but if he wins, the left will be apoplectic. Almost everyone I know is in this category. I have a few far left Bernie friends who'll say "I told you so." But I really don't think half of America is prepared for a tump win. I think they'll be worse riots than now.
Can you imagine that fat ruddy clown stumbling around twitter as his greasy family carves up America in the basement of the White House? With Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin tied, it could happen. And remember this: never trust Florida!
Quote from: milk on September 01, 2020, 06:04:01 PM
Can you imagine that fat ruddy clown stumbling around twitter as his greasy family carves up America in the basement of the White House?
Please, you're making Huggy Bear drool.
I hesitate to imagine the chaos that would happen if Trump wins but the Democrats take the Senate.
No matter who wins we are screwed.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/academics-are-really-really-worried-about-their-freedom/615724/
Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Some fear for their career because they don't believe progressive orthodoxies.
Being nonwhite leaves one protected in this environment only to the extent that one toes the ideological line. An assistant professor of color who cannot quite get with the program writes, "At the moment, I'm more anxious about this problem than anything else in my career," noting that "the truth is that over the last few years, this new norm of intolerance and cult of social justice has marginalized me more than all racism I have ever faced in my life."
The charges levied against many of these professors are rooted in a fanatical worldview, one devoted to spraying for any utterances possibly interpretable as "supremacist," although the accusers sincerely think they have access to higher wisdom. A white professor read a passage from an interview with a well-known Black public intellectual who mentions the rap group NWA, and because few of the students knew of the group's work at this late date, the professor parenthetically noted what the initials stand for. None of the Black students batted an eye, according to my correspondent, but a few white students demanded a humiliating public apology.
This episode represents a pattern in the letters, wherein it is white students who are "woker" than their Black classmates, neatly demonstrating the degree to which this new religion is more about virtue signaling than social justice. From the same well is this same professor finding that the gay men in his class had no problem with his assigning a book with a gay slur in its title, a layered, ironic title for a book taking issue with traditional concepts of masculinity—but that a group of straight white women did, and reported him to his superiors.
Overall I found it alarming how many of the letters sound as if they were written from Stalinist Russia or Maoist China. A history professor reports that at his school, the administration is seriously considering setting up an anonymous reporting system for students and professors to report "bias" that they have perceived. One professor committed the sin of "privileging the white male perspective" in giving a lecture on the philosophy of one of the Founding Fathers, even though Frederick Douglass sang that Founder's praises. The administration tried to make him sit in a "listening circle," in which his job was to stay silent while students explained how he had hurt them—in other words, a 21st-century-American version of a struggle session straight out of the Cultural Revolution.
Yeah, that article was not terribly opportune. With people getting killed in the streets and covid still spreading we don't need that now.
Quote from: Herman on September 02, 2020, 12:01:41 AM
Yeah, that article was not terribly opportune. With people getting killed in the streets and covid still spreading we don't need that now.
You've changed my mind!
Just kidding. ;)
Quote from: Herman on September 02, 2020, 12:01:41 AM
Yeah, that article was not terribly opportune. With people getting killed in the streets and covid still spreading we don't need that now.
Of course. What nutjob could really need freedom of thought and expression now, particularly in the academia? Actually, freedom of thought and expresion are Western concepts and values smelling like racism and white supremacy from 10 miles away. High time to cancel them once and for all. Covid and riots are as good an opportunity as any for doing it.
The End of Wokeness? Glenn Loury and John McWhorter discuss the madness.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ardDvpzHDIs&feature=share
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 12:13:17 AM
Of course. What nutjob could really need freedom of thought and expression now, particularly in the academia? Actually, freedom of thought and expresion are Western concepts and values smelling like racism and white supremacy from 10 miles away. High time to cancel them once and for all. Covid and riots are as good an opportunity as any for doing it.
I picked The wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 12:13:17 AM
Of course. What nutjob could really need freedom of thought and expression now, particularly in the academia? Actually, freedom of thought and expresion are Western concepts and values smelling like racism and white supremacy from 10 miles away. High time to cancel them once and for all. Covid and riots are as good an opportunity as any for doing it.
Thanks for jumping to conclusions
Skyrocketing demolition costs for riot-damaged Minneapolis, St. Paul properties delay rebuilding
"I think that is price-gouging and they should contact the attorney general," said Andrea Jenkins, vice president of the Minneapolis City Council. "That is a symbol of capitalism run amok."
Contractors acknowledge that prices for riot-related work are far higher than usual, but they said that is because government regulations require them to treat all debris from a burned-out building as hazardous...
"Our neighborhood looks like a war zone," Islam said.
https://www.startribune.com/skyrocketing-demolition-costs-for-riot-damaged-properties-delay-rebuilding/572269302/
From my FB feed: "I would burn down the city too"
(https://www.alternet.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/burnitdown-1-273x300.jpg)
Ed Markey defeats Joe Kennedy III 0:)
Looks like Green New Deal is important for the voters and isn't just a "Green Dream or whatever" to them.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 02, 2020, 02:47:29 AM
Ed Markey defeats Joe Kennedy III 0:)
Looks like Green New Deal is important for the voters and isn't just a "Green Dream or whatever" to them.
Too bad that Morse guy lost. I was pulling for him.
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2020, 02:51:37 AM
Too bad that Morse guy lost. I was pulling for him.
Not enough name recognition this time around. Next time maybe...
Quote from: 71 dB on September 02, 2020, 02:47:29 AM
Ed Markey defeats Joe Kennedy III 0:)
Looks like Green New Deal is important for the voters and isn't just a "Green Dream or whatever" to them.
Or it may be support of an incumbent you like against a son of privilege running on opportunism
Remind me—which of us lives in Massachusetts?
Quote from: Herman on September 02, 2020, 12:01:41 AM
Yeah, that article was not terribly opportune. With people getting killed in the streets and covid still spreading we don't need that now.
Which logical fallacy is this again?
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2020, 02:30:54 AMSkyrocketing demolition costs for riot-damaged Minneapolis, St. Paul properties delay rebuilding
If the residents are not careful, Minneapolis-St Paul could become the next Detroit.
Most Democrats fear Trump could reject election defeat, poll shows (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/02/democrats-fear-trump-reject-election-defeat-poll?utm_term=a96a80457e63751c8161b258cf5b2ce0&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUS&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUS_email)
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9cd502381cb3beed49a5d0b3060cb25d/tenor.gif?itemid=6186534)
Quote from: Herman on September 02, 2020, 12:01:41 AM
Yeah, that article was not terribly opportune. With people getting killed in the streets and covid still spreading we don't need that now.
Sorry Herman, but the article points out a very real, longstanding problem. The research was no doubt begun well before the current plague and violence. It's not like The Atlantic has been failing to focus on current issues, has it? Should they devote the rest of their pages to gardening or something?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2020, 03:41:15 AM
Or it may be support of an incumbent you like against a son of privilege running on opportunism
Remind me—which of us lives in Massachusetts?
Could be be both. One doesn't have to be physically in Massachusetts to know what's going on in Massachusetts. Anyway this was the first time ever a Kennedy lost an election in Massachusetts. Did you know that living over there yourself Karl?
I live in Helsinki. You can certainly know things happening in Helsinki I don't know about if you follow Finnish news as much as I follow US politics.
As I have said before, I live in one of the least corrupted countries in the World with one of the best freedoms of press. So I know what is looks like when the news are only
mildly skewed toward right-wing propaganda. That's why I am very sensitive to the corruption in the US, something I don't see in you Karl. You are much more susceptible to what corporate media writes and says. I fear you are blind to things like how the corporate media ALWAYS downplays the wins of progressives having all kind of excuses from fluke to demografics to support of an incumbent to cynical identity politics if possible. Nobody in the corporate media will say for example:
"Looks like getting endorsed by AOC seems more important than getting endorsed by Nancy Pelosi."
Zzzzzzzzz....
If I were living in Helsinki I would enjoy living in Helsinki.
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2020, 12:14:12 AM
The End of Wokeness? Glenn Loury and John McWhorter discuss the madness.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ardDvpzHDIs&feature=share
Just wanted to say that I was a bit surprised to see this video here, just happened to have it on yesterday :P
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 02, 2020, 04:32:04 AM
Sorry Herman, but the article points out a very real, longstanding problem. The research was no doubt begun well before the current plague and violence. It's not like The Atlantic has been failing to focus on current issues, has it? Should they devote the rest of their pages to gardening or something?
Freedom of thought and expression should be defended at any time, but especially today. Only someone who has never experienced first hand their complete absence can really claim they are less important that fighting covid or facing riots --- and with all due respect, Mr. Herman here has most certainly never experienced that.
Quote from: Todd on September 02, 2020, 04:16:35 AM
Which logical fallacy is this again?
I think it's called "there's something wrong with my brain". ;D
Quote from: Herman on September 02, 2020, 05:10:22 AM
Zzzzzzzzz....
If I were living in Helsinki I would enjoy living in Helsinki.
One can enjoy the place of residence without being ignorant about other places in the World.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 02, 2020, 06:45:52 AM
One can enjoy the place of residence without being ignorant about other places in the World.
I find it highly ironic that Herman reproaches you for not enjoying living where you live because you are concerned about places you don't live in, all the while being himself very concerned about places where he doesn't live in. Gosh, he must really hate whatever Netherlands corner he inhabits.
For fun. A test about how much you agree with a bunch of random Trump quotes:
https://www.idrlabs.com/pol/trump/test.php
My results:
(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/trump-meter?l=EN&p=39&i=Soft%20Donald&v=2)
Quote
Your Trump Factor is 39%, which makes you a Soft Donald.
Uh-oh. Someone had better call a doctor 'cause your Trump Factor isn't doing too well. You need to rise to the challenge if you want to be cheeky, sassy, lively, saucy, and smart like only the Donald can be – in other words, to turn yourself into the highest quality, most wildly powerful brand (capable of wooing women and voters alike). You've got a job to do and if you do it, you'll win. Good luck – the Donald is watching you.
Anyone else wanna try it out?
Also, don't talk about me, Herman. Whatever ridiculous thing you are about to say, just shut your mouth before you even say it.
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 08:33:04 AM
For fun. A test about how much you agree with a bunch of random Trump quotes:
https://www.idrlabs.com/pol/trump/test.php
Took it. Answered it in all earnest and when context-dependent I had Romania instead of the USA in my mind. This is my result:
(https://charts.idrlabs.com/graphic/trump-meter?l=EN&p=0&i=No%20Donald&v=2)
And yet I am staunchly pro-life, anti-PC, anti-SJW, anti-gay marriage, anti-gay adoptions, I hold Mozart in infintely higher esteem than Kanye West and I would gladly read the Tolstoy of the Papuans if only they had one. And I make no apologies for all of the above.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 08:41:33 AM
Took it. Answered it in all earnest and when context-dependent I had Romania instead of the USA in my mind. This is my result:
How did you get 0%? Did you strong disagree with everything?
The one I agreed with the most is about the type of wife being a good business partner would also be a good wife.
What I disagreed with the most was the "it's a shame that the president isn't known as a CEO of America"
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 08:50:46 AM
How did you get 0%? Did you strong disagree with everything?
Honestly, I'm as surprised as you are. No, I didn't strongly disagree with everything. There were some quotes I was neutral about, or mildly agreed --- but the end result was that.
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 08:50:46 AM
The one I agreed with the most is about the type of wife being a good business partner would also be a good wife.
Frankly, coming from you this is a huge, unexpected surprise.
I, for one, disagreed with that. ;D
Quote
What I disagreed with the most was the "it's a shame that the president isn't known as a CEO of America"
That I disagreed with also. But not only that.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 08:58:58 AM
Frankly, coming from you this is a huge, unexpected surprise.
I, for one, disagreed with that. ;D
If both people are willing to be in the same business, it only seems like a positive to me because then they have shared interests and goals. There would be less conflict of people doing their own thing.
I can think of some positive examples at the moment- the people I worked for at my first job, and some youtubers I follow. If it's a mutual passion, it's only a good thing.
In general, from my perspective, it's nice when women have at least one common interest... if they're only interested in makeup, pop music, and cheerleading, it would be hard to find anything to passionately talk about, and getting married to someone like that would make it very difficult to not get bored easily.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 08:41:33 AM
And yet I am staunchly pro-life, anti-PC, anti-SJW, anti-gay marriage, anti-gay adoptions, I hold Mozart in infintely higher esteem than Kanye West and I would gladly read the Tolstoy of the Papuans if only they had one. And I make no apologies for all of the above.
you are conservative, unlike Trump ;)
Quote from: Jo498 on September 02, 2020, 09:16:27 AM
you are conservative, unlike Trump ;)
Hah! I guess you're right. ;)
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 09:09:19 AM
If both people are willing to be in the same business, it only seems like a positive to me because then they have shared interests and goals. There would be less conflict of people doing their own thing.
I can think of some positive examples at the moment- the people I worked for at my first job, and some youtubers I follow. If it's a mutual passion, it's only a good thing.
In general, from my perspective, it's nice when women have at least one common interest... if they're only interested in makeup, pop music, and cheerleading, it would be hard to find anything to passionately talk about, and getting married to someone like that would make it very difficult to not get bored easily.
I very much doubt that businesswomen are only interested in makeup, pop music, and cheerleading --- I think they are interested in making money, presumably legally and mutually trustworthy. If I were a businessman myself, that would be our common interest, she wife or no wife.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 09:23:36 AM
I very much doubt that businesswomen are only interested in makeup, pop music, and cheerleading
Misunderstanding here... I'm referring to women in general in that sentence. The idea is that the ones that are only interested in that stuff (primarily feminine hobbies, and that alone, nothing else) are unrelatable.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 09:23:36 AM
I think they are interested in making money, presumably legally and mutually trustworthy. If I were a businessman myself, that would be our common interest, she wife or no wife.
Yes... but what I have in mind is a making money with your passion kind of idea. I don't find serious, money-hungry corporate businesswomen in suits attractive at all. Tbh I really don't like wearing suits myself, probably gonna annoy people who love business suits, but I dislike dressing up at all. Even business casual when going into office is dumb and slightly annoying IMO.
What I have in mind is something more like the couple I follow on youtube that make money by talking about anime... it is technically a business they are running but they spend most of their time chilling at home in their pajamas and smoking pot, as far as I can tell.
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 09:50:35 AM
Misunderstanding here... I'm referring to women in general in that sentence. The idea is that the ones that are only interested in that stuff (primarily feminine hobbies, and that alone, nothing else) are unrelatable.
Let me put it bluntly, Greg: are you interested in getting seriously married and having/raising kids?
QuoteI don't find serious, money-hungry corporate businesswomen in suits attractive at all.
I don't either. That's why I didn't married one.
QuoteWhat I have in mind is something more like the couple I follow on youtube that make money by talking about anime... it is technically a business they are running but they spend most of their time chilling at home in their pajamas and smoking pot, as far as I can tell.
Sorry, dude, I can't help telling you this is as irresponsible as it gets. If you think life is all about spending most of one's time chilling at home in their pajamas and smoking pot, you're wrong, very wrong, absolutely wrong.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 10:16:36 AM
Let me put it bluntly, Greg: are you interested in getting seriously married and having/raising kids?
Not really. What's the connection with the part you quoted?
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 10:16:36 AM
Sorry, dude, I can't help telling you this is as irresponsible as it gets. If you think life is all about spending most of one's time chilling at home in their pajamas and smoking pot, you're wrong, very wrong, absolutely wrong.
I wouldn't go
that far.
Getting two people together, in a relaxing environment, being able to make money through a shared passion is only a good thing. If it's possible.
Doesn't mean I think "life is all about" that. Just better than a higher stress environment (like a corporate one), which can cause arguments between a married couple.
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 10:26:30 AM
Not really. What's the connection with the part you quoted?
This:
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 08:50:46 AM
The one I agreed with the most is about the type of wife being a good business partner would also be a good wife.
Being a good wife implies being faithful to her husband and raising children together.
Judging by Hollywood, this is a far cry from being a succesful businesswoman.
Quote
Getting two people together, in a relaxing environment, being able to make money through a shared passion is only a good thing. If it's possible.
It is possible. But for how long? And at what price? Think about porn, which fits your description to a tee. ;D
Quote
Doesn't mean I think "life is all about" that. Just better than a higher stress environment (like a corporate one), which can cause arguments between a married couple.
True again. But then again, see above.
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 08:33:04 AM
For fun. A test about how much you agree with a bunch of random Trump quotes:
https://www.idrlabs.com/pol/trump/test.php
How about (pun) Fascist test? Everybody and their neghbours abhor Fascism, right?
My result:
(https://charts.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascism-meter?l=EN&p=26&i=Not%20Fascist)
You are 26% Fascist, which makes you Not Fascist.
While your political outlook may share a few (or even quite a few) of fascism's fundamental doctrines, it is overall safe to say that your political orientation is *not* a fascist one. Now, you may find this result unsurprising, but in reality, most people have at least some points of agreement with fascism since fascism is really a mix of communism, socialism, conservatism, and liberalism, with a few innovations of its own thrown in. Hence, adjusting for these factors, even though your fascism percentage might seem quite high, there is really nothing surprising about these agreements, when viewed in their proper historical context, so rest assured: Your political beliefs are definitely not fascist.I knew that already, thanks.
So, I'm 0% Trump and 26% Fascist --- ergo, Trump is no Fascist.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 11:06:08 AM
How about (pun) Fascist test? Everybody and their neghbours abhor Fascism, right?
My result:
(https://charts.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascism-meter?l=EN&p=26&i=Not%20Fascist)
You are 26% Fascist, which makes you Not Fascist.
While your political outlook may share a few (or even quite a few) of fascism's fundamental doctrines, it is overall safe to say that your political orientation is *not* a fascist one. Now, you may find this result unsurprising, but in reality, most people have at least some points of agreement with fascism since fascism is really a mix of communism, socialism, conservatism, and liberalism, with a few innovations of its own thrown in. Hence, adjusting for these factors, even though your fascism percentage might seem quite high, there is really nothing surprising about these agreements, when viewed in their proper historical context, so rest assured: Your political beliefs are definitely not fascist.
I knew that already, thanks.
So, I'm 0% Trump and 26% Fascist --- ergo, Trump is no Fascist.
(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascism-meter?l=EN&p=22&i=Not%20Fascist)
QuoteYou are 22% Fascist, which makes you Not Fascist.
While your political outlook may share a few (or even quite a few) of fascism's fundamental doctrines, it is overall safe to say that your political orientation is *not* a fascist one. Now, you may find this result unsurprising, but in reality, most people have at least some points of agreement with fascism since fascism is really a mix of communism, socialism, conservatism, and liberalism, with a few innovations of its own thrown in. Hence, adjusting for these factors, even though your fascism percentage might seem quite high, there is really nothing surprising about these agreements, when viewed in their proper historical context, so rest assured: Your political beliefs are definitely not fascist.
I win the virtue competition. Time to die, fascist! >:D
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 10:51:22 AM
Being a good wife implies being faithful to her husband and raising children together.
Judging by Hollywood, this is a far cry from being a succesful businesswoman.
I think the phrasing is appearing different between us.
"Business partner" to me implies something like a mom and pop business. But it seems like to you it is implying "businesswoman." Some linguistic thing going on here, maybe.
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 11:28:00 AM
(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascism-meter?l=EN&p=22&i=Not%20Fascist)
I win the virtue competition. Time to die, fascist! >:D
Well, honestly, I'd rather have lived under Mussolini or Franco or Salazar than under Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot.
QuoteI think the phrasing is appearing different between us.
"Business partner" to me implies something like a mom and pop business. But it seems like to you it is implying "businesswoman." Some linguistic thing going on here, maybe.
Only words count and the rest is mere chattering. -
Eugen Ionescu, aka as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Ionesco (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Ionesco)
;)
(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascism-meter?l=EN&p=19&i=Not%20Fascist)
Quote from: Todd on September 02, 2020, 12:10:25 PM
(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascism-meter?l=EN&p=19&i=Not%20Fascist)
How about Trump? Inquiring minds etc. :D
Quote from: Todd on September 02, 2020, 12:10:25 PM
(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascism-meter?l=EN&p=19&i=Not%20Fascist)
I guess you win now.
Got a quarter? :'(
(https://horrorfuel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/suicide_booth_by_r_w_shilling.jpg)
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 12:13:32 PM
How about Trump? Inquiring minds etc. :D
I couldn't make it past question 1 for laughing.
Quote from: Todd on September 02, 2020, 12:16:51 PM
I couldn't make it past question 1 for laughing.
Why, sure, but just for fun! Come on, please, indulge me! Please.
I'm also curious. I shall delay my suicide booth visit until after you tell us your results. Since compared to you, I'm fascist scum, and that is not good to have on this planet, it should convince you to take it to hurry up my demise. :)
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 12:24:50 PM
Since compared to you, I'm fascist scum
Giovinezza, giovinezza,
Primavera di bellezza
Della vita, nell'asprezza
Il tuo canto squilla e va!Best version ever: Beniamino Gigli. Google it.
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
Giovinezza, giovinezza,
Primavera di bellezza
Della vita, nell'asprezza
Il tuo canto squilla e va!
Best version ever: Beniamino Gigli. Google it.
I did. Now I just want to eat some pizza. :P
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 01:00:07 PM
I did. Now I just want to eat some pizza. :P
Make sure to have some prosecco along with it. :P
Quote from: 71 dB on September 02, 2020, 05:02:55 AM
Could be be both. One doesn't have to be physically in Massachusetts to know what's going on in Massachusetts. Anyway this was the first time ever a Kennedy lost an election in Massachusetts. Did you know that living over there yourself Karl?
I live in Helsinki. You can certainly know things happening in Helsinki I don't know about if you follow Finnish news as much as I follow US politics.
As I have said before, I live in one of the least corrupted countries in the World with one of the best freedoms of press. So I know what is looks like when the news are only mildly skewed toward right-wing propaganda. That's why I am very sensitive to the corruption in the US, something I don't see in you Karl. You are much more susceptible to what corporate media writes and says. I fear you are blind to things like how the corporate media ALWAYS downplays the wins of progressives having all kind of excuses from fluke to demografics to support of an incumbent to cynical identity politics if possible. Nobody in the corporate media will say for example: "Looks like getting endorsed by AOC seems more important than getting endorsed by Nancy Pelosi."
For your information, of two House races where progressives made a big effort to unseat an incumbent, the incumbent won. In a third race, to replace Joe Kennedy in the seat he gave up to run against Markey, a former Republican seems to have won. (There were a whole lot of candidates in that one, the two top votegetters both received under 25% of the vote and are about 1% apart. Had progressives united behind one or two candidates, the result would likely be different. The apparent winner btw is a cousin (second degree or something like that) of Jackie Kennedy's stepfather. )
The pundits, looking at the areas which voted for progressives and which did not, noted that progressives are popular among highly educated, more affluent voters but not among less educated, less affluent ones. So maybe the people progressives want to most help are not impressed with the help offered.
Quote from: JBS on September 02, 2020, 01:59:31 PM
The pundits, looking at the areas which voted for progressives and which did not, noted that progressives are popular among highly educated, more affluent voters but not among less educated, less affluent ones. So maybe the people progressives want to most help are not impressed with the help offered.
;D
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 02:16:00 PM
;D
They just don't tune in to "the right propaganda"....
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2020, 03:00:36 PM
They just don't tune in to "the right propaganda"....
Every time I hear
Bandiera Rossa I am reminded of
Bellini's
Ah non giunge uman pensiero. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on September 02, 2020, 12:18:50 PM
Why, sure, but just for fun! Come on, please, indulge me! Please.
(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/trump-meter?l=EN&p=0&i=No%20Donald&v=2)
I got a zero - and I agreed with the dig at Jeb that was included in the questions. Go figure.
The test is rigged!
Quote from: Todd on September 02, 2020, 04:49:45 PM
I got a zero - and I agreed with the dig at Jeb that was included in the questions. Go figure.
The test is rigged!
That's weird...
the scale seemed correct enough for me... neutral on the majority of questions, agreeing with a few and disagreeing with a few more.
Quote from: greg on September 02, 2020, 04:59:23 PM
That's weird...
the scale seemed correct enough for me... neutral on the majority of questions, agreeing with a few and disagreeing with a few more.
I do wonder who put it together. If an intellectual put it together, it is entirely worthless. If someone else did, it is almost entirely worthless.
I really do not understand conservatives any more.
They have been dominating American politics for twenty-five years.
They have vilified progressives to where they are only 15 to 20% of the electorate.
They have gutted affirmative action and the voting rights act.
They have passed laws that make it difficult to take disciplinary actions against rogue police officers.
They have militarized our police forces.
They are suppressing immigration to this country of people of color.
Yet they are surprised that minorities are upset and fighting back.
You're too late, Pedge, this has been turned into a teenagers-talking-about-girls and doing silly quizzes topic.
The last 25 years had the US presidency almost evenly split, half of it Bill Clinton and Obama, the other half Bush jr. and Trump. How can one say that "conservatives" have dominated?
There is also no denying that the "soft themes" (e.g. gay marriage, something that was unthinkable for a huge majority only 30 years ago) have without any reasonable doubt been dominated or simply won by the "progressives".
That's why many conservatives, even people far into the mainstream have the impression that the last 25 years have been a move to the "left" culturally and in many small things that nevertheless influence people's lives (like being one bad joke or a frank expression of one's religious stance away from being fired because that's "hate speech" now)
Sure, this is also a very biased impression. But it is not unfounded. Even the "old left" deplores with good reason the almost complete replacement of the economic/class focus with tribalist politics concerning ever smaller cross sections that have to be recognized as "identity" (say black latino unemployed lesbian or whatever).
The double movement, towards ruthless economic globalism (that is only interested in uprooted malleable consumers and workers) and fake or genuine "identity politics" (that gives rises to the worst of irrational tribalism on many sides) has been achieved not by any traditional left or right but by an unholy alliance of globalized corporatism and bullshit postmodernism as vulgarized descendants of what used to pass for leftist "theory".
Quote from: Jo498 on September 03, 2020, 12:43:21 AM
The last 25 years had the US presidency almost evenly split, half of it Bill Clinton and Obama, the other half Bush jr. and Trump. How can one say that "conservatives" have dominated?
Because the Democrat presidents weren't
that progressive.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 03, 2020, 12:43:21 AMThere is also no denying that the "soft themes" (e.g. gay marriage, something that was unthinkable for a huge majority only 30 years ago) have without any reasonable doubt been dominated or simply won by the "progressives".
That's a global thing. Gay marriage has become reality in many other countries too in the recent years. Younger generations just don't want to supress the rights of sexual minorities just because of some old books and beliefs.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 03, 2020, 12:43:21 AMThat's why many conservatives, even people far into the mainstream have the impression that the last 25 years have been a move to the "left" culturally and in many small things that nevertheless influence people's lives (like being one bad joke or a frank expression of one's religious stance away from being fired because that's "hate speech" now)
Yes, culture has moved to left. I think it's a good thing. Could have moved faster progress if you ask me. Some of the aspects of "woke-culture" I don't support thou.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 03, 2020, 12:43:21 AMSure, this is also a very biased impression. But it is not unfounded. Even the "old left" deplores with good reason the almost complete replacement of the economic/class focus with tribalist politics concerning ever smaller cross sections that have to be recognized as "identity" (say black latino unemployed lesbian or whatever).
Everything is turned into cultural war (social stuff), because the oligarchs don't want people to think about the economical stuff. When tons of even Republican voters support medicare for all, living wage, ending the wars and stopping NSA spying, better concentrate on the cultural war to divide those people from people on the left, keep them apart instead of being stronger together on those issues. That's how the oligarchs can protect their power. Whenever the right is triggered by the left or the left is triggered by the right they are being played by those who have the money and power.
Quote from: JBS on September 02, 2020, 01:59:31 PM
For your information, of two House races where progressives made a big effort to unseat an incumbent, the incumbent won.
So?
Quote from: JBS on September 02, 2020, 01:59:31 PMIn a third race, to replace Joe Kennedy in the seat he gave up to run against Markey, a former Republican seems to have won. (There were a whole lot of candidates in that one, the two top votegetters both received under 25% of the vote and are about 1% apart. Had progressives united behind one or two candidates, the result would likely be different. The apparent winner btw is a cousin (second degree or something like that) of Jackie Kennedy's stepfather. )
When TYT reported about this the progressive candidate was in the fifth place, but this is about getting name recognition.
Quote from: JBS on September 02, 2020, 01:59:31 PMThe pundits, looking at the areas which voted for progressives and which did not, noted that progressives are popular among highly educated, more affluent voters but not among less educated, less affluent ones. So maybe the people progressives want to most help are not impressed with the help offered.
Higher education gives better abilities to question things and think for yourself. This means one is less likely to believe the corporate propaganda in corporate media. Less educated people are more easily misled to vote against their own good. Also, less educated people are less likely to follow politics and know about the candidates and "better" options (that's why name recognition is important). The irony is less affluent people are those who benefit from progressive policies the most.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 03, 2020, 12:43:21 AM
The last 25 years had the US presidency almost evenly split, half of it Bill Clinton and Obama, the other half Bush jr. and Trump. How can one say that "conservatives" have dominated?
There is also no denying that the "soft themes" (e.g. gay marriage, something that was unthinkable for a huge majority only 30 years ago) have without any reasonable doubt been dominated or simply won by the "progressives".
That's why many conservatives, even people far into the mainstream have the impression that the last 25 years have been a move to the "left" culturally and in many small things that nevertheless influence people's lives (like being one bad joke or a frank expression of one's religious stance away from being fired because that's "hate speech" now)
Sure, this is also a very biased impression. But it is not unfounded. Even the "old left" deplores with good reason the almost complete replacement of the economic/class focus with tribalist politics concerning ever smaller cross sections that have to be recognized as "identity" (say black latino unemployed lesbian or whatever).
The double movement, towards ruthless economic globalism (that is only interested in uprooted malleable consumers and workers) and fake or genuine "identity politics" (that gives rises to the worst of irrational tribalism on many sides) has been achieved not by any traditional left or right but by an unholy alliance of globalized corporatism and bullshit postmodernism as vulgarized descendants of what used to pass for leftist "theory".
Yes
Quote from: Jo498 on September 03, 2020, 12:43:21 AM
The last 25 years had the US presidency almost evenly split, half of it Bill Clinton and Obama, the other half Bush jr. and Trump. How can one say that "conservatives" have dominated?
There is also no denying that the "soft themes" (e.g. gay marriage, something that was unthinkable for a huge majority only 30 years ago) have without any reasonable doubt been dominated or simply won by the "progressives".
That's why many conservatives, even people far into the mainstream have the impression that the last 25 years have been a move to the "left" culturally and in many small things that nevertheless influence people's lives (like being one bad joke or a frank expression of one's religious stance away from being fired because that's "hate speech" now)
Sure, this is also a very biased impression. But it is not unfounded. Even the "old left" deplores with good reason the almost complete replacement of the economic/class focus with tribalist politics concerning ever smaller cross sections that have to be recognized as "identity" (say black latino unemployed lesbian or whatever).
The double movement, towards ruthless economic globalism (that is only interested in uprooted malleable consumers and workers) and fake or genuine "identity politics" (that gives rises to the worst of irrational tribalism on many sides) has been achieved not by any traditional left or right but by an unholy alliance of globalized corporatism and bullshit postmodernism as vulgarized descendants of what used to pass for leftist "theory".
This analysis is simplistic and just wrong. The crucial facts you've ignored are these: In recent congressional races Republicans have won a percentage of seats out of all proportion to their performance in the popular vote versus Democrats. Consider the 2016 election, where "Republican candidates received 49.13% of total votes cast in 2016 and won 55.4% of U.S. House seats. Comparatively, Democratic candidates received 48.03% of votes and won 44.6% of races." The figures are just as skewed in favor of Republicans even when the Dems have picked up many seats, as in 2018. How does a 1% lead in the popular vote lead to an 11% difference in seats? When you understand that you will gain some insight into how power works in the U.S. (Hint: it's called Gerrymandering.) To really get at the bases of power would require discussing grass roots voter suppression at the state level which contributes to majorities on committees that draw congressional districts. Historically this has been accomplished through law enforcement (disproportionate enforcement of drug laws leading to felony convictions and loss of voting rights), more standard forms of voter suppression, and the legal system. For example, marijuana prohibition and the drug's classification as a schedule one drug was racially motivated and has always been enforced disproportionately on racial lines leading to disproportionate loss of voting rights.
You write: "There is also no denying that the "soft themes" (e.g. gay marriage, something that was unthinkable for a huge majority only 30 years ago) have without any reasonable doubt been dominated or simply won by the "progressives".
The reason is that a large majority of Americans across party lines supported these positions.
So the overall picture is this: Republican power at all levels of government is disproportionate to their performance in the popular vote.
Quote from: milk on September 03, 2020, 02:22:17 AM
Yes
No. Responses like this are liable to earn you a surname based on a well-loved breakfast item.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 03, 2020, 02:02:01 AM
So?
When TYT reported about this the progressive candidate was in the fifth place, but this is about getting name recognition.
Higher education gives better abilities to question things and think for yourself. This means one is less likely to believe the corporate propaganda in corporate media. Less educated people are more easily misled to vote against their own good. Also, less educated people are less likely to follow politics and know about the candidates and "better" options (that's why name recognition is important). The irony is less affluent people are those who benefit from progressive policies the most.
1) in that House race, the only candidate who could not reasonably be called a progressive is Auchincloss. If TYT tells you there was only one...well, there's one more example of TYT feeding you bad info.
2) Your statements about less educated people not thinking for themselves is pure classist bigotry. You are insulting wide swathes of people around the world. Besides, college educated people are just as likely to fall for herd thinking.
3) Did it ever occur to you that poorer people are likely to have first hand experience with government social programs and therefore know for themselves how screwed up, over bureaucratized, and underfunded they can be?
Factlessness, like Huggy Bear's "medical evaluation" of Biden's mental acuity.
Quote from: JBS on September 03, 2020, 06:12:38 AM
1) in that House race, the only candidate who could not reasonably be called a progressive is Auchincloss. If TYT tells you there was only one...well, there's one more example of TYT feeding you bad info.
TYT "the home of progressives" supported
Ihssane Leckey so I suppose she was the most progressive of them all.
Quote from: JBS on September 03, 2020, 06:12:38 AM2) Your statements about less educated people not thinking for themselves is pure classist bigotry. You are insulting wide swathes of people around the world. Besides, college educated people are just as likely to fall for herd thinking.
Less educated people who are worse of financially think about other things such how to pay the bills. Education correlates with source criticism skills.
Quote from: JBS on September 03, 2020, 06:12:38 AM3) Did it ever occur to you that poorer people are likely to have first hand experience with government social programs and therefore know for themselves how screwed up, over bureaucratized, and underfunded they can be?
Yes. That's why they may not know how properly funded and well functioning social programs work. They have seen how it works in crony capitalism, not how it works in social democracy.
But President Trump has made it clear, in speeches and on Twitter, that his target date is some time ahead of the Nov. 3 election — an "October surprise" that would somehow make the voting public forget how his ineptitude has contributed to the spread of this dreaded virus. And now the Trump appointee at the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has alerted governors to get ready to distribute a COVID-19 vaccine by Nov. 1.
So the real question now is: Can the Food and Drug Administration, which approves vaccines for safety and effectiveness, be bent to the will of the bully in the White House? Can this once respected agency be cowed into putting politics ahead of science in greenlighting a vaccine that has not yet proved its worth?
No shortcuts on COVID-19 vaccine (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/03/opinion/no-shortcuts-covid-19-vaccine/)
) At the risk of raining on the political world's national narrative parade, Joseph P. Kennedy III didn't take the glittering Kennedy dynasty out for an ill-advised joyride and wrap it around a tree.
Yes, he waged an entitled and impatient Senate primary challenge to a more accomplished incumbent, Ed Markey — and got his clock cleaned. But the notion so prevalent nationally that in doing so he somehow totaled a family dynasty is silly. The Kennedys haven't been a dynasty for decades. Wipe the mystique from your glasses and that supposedly gleaming Kennedy juggernaut is actually a rusted 1960s Studebaker sinking into an overgrown field behind the barn. (
JPK III didn't demolish the Kennedy dynasty — it faded long ago (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/03/opinion/jpk-iii-didnt-demolish-kennedy-dynasty-it-faded-long-ago/)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 03, 2020, 12:51:19 PM
) At the risk of raining on the political world's national narrative parade, Joseph P. Kennedy III didn't take the glittering Kennedy dynasty out for an ill-advised joyride and wrap it around a tree.
Yes, he waged an entitled and impatient Senate primary challenge to a more accomplished incumbent, Ed Markey — and got his clock cleaned. But the notion so prevalent nationally that in doing so he somehow totaled a family dynasty is silly. The Kennedys haven't been a dynasty for decades. Wipe the mystique from your glasses and that supposedly gleaming Kennedy juggernaut is actually a rusted 1960s Studebaker sinking into an overgrown field behind the barn. (
JPK III didn't demolish the Kennedy dynasty — it faded long ago (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/03/opinion/jpk-iii-didnt-demolish-kennedy-dynasty-it-faded-long-ago/)
I find it embarrassing that Pelosi and others were supporting this callow Kennedy candidacy when Markey has proved himself to be a solid progressive Democrat. At least the primary voters had some sense.
Quote from: Todd on September 03, 2020, 07:41:56 AM
No, I saw how you tried your darnedest to use data. The problem is with your factless assertion of "all levels". Also, there's the whole sourcing thing.
From several options in my search I chose and quoted:
https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2016
This kind of data is readily available.
As for the all levels thing, this stuff is pretty basic. At the municipal and county level all one need do is locate a demographic historically likely to vote democratic by a wide margin (lets call this voting block "B" for future reference) and then apply one or more of the common strategies for voter suppression or dilution. Republicans have a handy way of locating such blocks—can you guess how they do it?—because for decades Bs have been corralled together into easily manageable units by red lining, zoning ordinances, public construction projects, and so on. Standard gerrymandering of voting districts is one method. If there are large sections where this can't easily be accomplished or would be too obvious, one carves up this large piece of B territory and adds the resulting smaller parts each to an area where sufficient numbers of likely Rep voters live to negate or mitigate Bs influence. That's standard dilution. If one has a really big block of B for which the preceding methods won't work, one can still negate their influence by instituting voting at large regulations. For voter suppression one need only look at what repubs did in Kansas City in 2018. They simply cut the number of polling places in B districts so that exercising ones right to vote requires a four or more hour wait. Or eliminate convenient on campus voting at colleges and universities as they did in Texas.
Are you really unaware of how this all works? You're just playing around, right?
Quote from: Daverz on September 03, 2020, 01:40:43 PM
I find it embarrassing that Pelosi and others were supporting this callow Kennedy candidacy when Markey has proved himself to be a solid progressive Democrat. At least the primary voters had some sense.
Yes.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 03, 2020, 12:04:02 PM
.
Less educated people who are worse of financially think about other things such how to pay the bills. Education correlates with source criticism skills.
That is sheer bigotry. One does not need to go to college to learn how to think critically. And lots of college grads don't think critically. You yourself don't treat Kulinski and TYT with the appropriate critical thinking. If you did, you would also understand why they are no more reliable than any of the corporate media you dislike.
Quote
Yes. That's why they may not know how properly funded and well functioning social programs work. They have seen how it works in crony capitalism, not how it works in social democracy.
First, your understanding of what crony capitalism is needs improving. Second, crony capitalism can flourish in social democracies. Third, Medicare ForAll would not exist in the magical world you imagine of full funding and full access, but in real life America with all its flaws.
Stop with the classist bigotry. You're only harming your own cause by indulging in it.
The one thing that should absolutely not be on offer is the glamorization of Rittenhouse as a positive example of sound decisions leading to a good outcome.
And yet, here we are.
If this has you depressed about the near-term future of America, I'm not here to help. (https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/america-is-a-powder-keg/)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 03, 2020, 06:00:04 PM
The one thing that should absolutely not be on offer is the glamorization of Rittenhouse as a positive example of sound decisions leading to a good outcome.
And yet, here we are.
If this has you depressed about the near-term future of America, I'm not here to help. (https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/america-is-a-powder-keg/)
I agree with the article, however, if the government organized some sort of arena where it was all legal to where we could just let all the extremists fight each other to the death and watch the entertainment live at home, that would be nice. It would be like the difference between prostitution and porn, just put a camera on and it's all good (of course this would need to be legalized first)- then the government could make the product sellable, and you could even buy the Blu Ray once it's over!
What could the title be? Maybe like "2020: Masks with a Vengeance" or something like that...
I'd also like to see a no weapons-bare fisted brawl, pure melee, like a demolition derby, only instead of with cars it's with people.
Here some news...
So that guy who randomly killed a Trump supporter on the street was killed in a shootout when officers went to arrest him.
He had an interview with Vice News today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hq3SdorDbQ&feature=youtu.be
Very proud Antifa supporter. Here's what he had to write:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBgt4xAFmZ4/
(paywall, just posting for the headline)
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/03/us/michael-reinoehl-arrest-portland-shooting.html
Quote from: Daverz on September 03, 2020, 01:40:43 PM
I find it embarrassing that Pelosi and others were supporting this callow Kennedy candidacy when Markey has proved himself to be a solid progressive Democrat. At least the primary voters had some sense.
It's easy to say it for us. The leader of House Democrats must choose a course of action based on several factors- ie. what would optimize the electoral results of D. Party, what would please the members needed for passages of important bills, etc.
Quote from: greg on September 03, 2020, 07:25:21 PM
I agree with the article, however, if the government organized some sort of arena where it was all legal to where we could just let all the extremists fight each other to the death and watch the entertainment live at home, that would be nice. It would be like the difference between prostitution and porn, just put a camera on and it's all good (of course this would need to be legalized first)- then the government could make the product sellable, and you could even buy the Blu Ray once it's over!
What could the title be? Maybe like "2020: Masks with a Vengeance" or something like that...
I'd also like to see a no weapons-bare fisted brawl, pure melee, like a demolition derby, only instead of with cars it's with people.
Nice. Folksy both-sidism. The problem is that in recent years, white right wing extremeists have killed over 330 people, whereas members of their supposed opponent, the dreaded ANTIFA!!! (Run for the hills, here they come!) have killed 0. This isn't a both sides problem. It's racially biased police allied with right wing extremists with the blessing of our president against ordinary citizens. Please get a clue.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 03:44:24 AM
Nice. Folksy both-sidism. The problem is that in recent years, white right wing extremeists have killed over 330 people, whereas members of their supposed opponent, the dreaded ANTIFA!!! (Run for the hills, here they come!) have killed 0. This isn't a both sides problem. It's racially biased police allied with right wing extremists with the blessing of our president against ordinary citizens. Please get a clue.
Pointing out facts to theb guy who won't do his own research ....
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 03:44:24 AM
Nice. Folksy both-sidism. The problem is that in recent years, white right wing extremeists have killed over 330 people, whereas members of their supposed opponent, the dreaded ANTIFA!!! (Run for the hills, here they come!) have killed 0. This isn't a both sides problem. It's racially biased police allied with right wing extremists with the blessing of our president against ordinary citizens. Please get a clue.
Well, the guy who was shot by the police last night had killed someone and, uniquely, called himself '100 % Antifa'.
Quote from: Herman on September 04, 2020, 05:06:09 AM
Well, the guy who was shot by the police last night had killed someone and, uniquely, called himself '100 % Antifa'.
I'm Spartacus!
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 05:29:17 AM
He was being folksy, I responded in kind. A logician would say false equivalence, as I usually do.
No soep for you!
Quote from: Herman on September 04, 2020, 05:06:09 AM
Well, the guy who was shot by the police last night had killed someone and, uniquely, called himself '100 % Antifa'.
Yeah, I heard about it five minutes after my post. He also said it was self-defense. I'll wait for confirmation. But assuming he qualifies as Antifa, that would mean the lefties still have lots of catching up to do.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 05:31:43 AM
Yeah, I heard about it five minutes after my post. He also said it was self-defense. I'll wait for confirmation. But assuming he qualifies as Antifa, that would mean the lefties still have lots of catching up to do.
I'd rather eat moldy bread than arsenic but that doesn't make moldy bread particularly good for me.
Here's an (excerpt from an) interview on the occasion of the release of the book, "In Defense of Looting." The author is in the news because she also recently did an interview with NPR.
Examining Vicky Osterweil's Case for LootingQ.
Sorry, are you comparing small-business owners to small slaveholders?I am saying that the naturalization of those systems, the naturalization of slavery and the way that property works was built on a violence that is very similar to the way that property is naturalized now. So the naturalization of property now is built on an unimaginably violent prison system, imperialist war, anti-Blackness to its core, and a murderous police, and now we have to start seeing property as part of those systems of oppression very, very directly.
Q.
Yeah, so to go back to the omelette and eggs, it just seems like when you see any private property as akin to slavery, you're basically saying anything goes because slavery is really bad and you need force to destroy it.No, I am not saying . . . Well, yeah. Let me think about that. I don't think anything goes. I don't think that attacks on property should be understood as going too far, and I think that we do actually have to overthrow the system of property and of capitalism and of the state. You have to do it in order to save the planet from ecocide, in order to serve the people in this community who are at constant threat of violence from the police. The police need to be abolished. Property needs to be abolished.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/vicky-osterweils-case-for-looting
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 03:44:24 AM
Folksy both-sidism.
That was a weird phrase lol.
It's just anti-identity politics that both the far left and far right play. Not sure if there's a cool sounding label, haven't heard of one.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 03:44:24 AM
It's racially biased police allied with right wing extremists
That happens. Idk what the solution is.
I do like the Daryl Davis approach of getting to know the radicals (mostly KKK members) and convincing them to abandon. He noticed a pattern of them joining their ideology in order to feel a sense of belonging. Same with far left stuff, it's a a tendency towards tribalism. You feel down and alone? Well, this group will give you a hand, smile at you, love bomb, etc. and then tell you your enemy who you should hate. These extremist ideologies are just cults. People need to be okay with being alone and not being a part of something else. Either that or be much more discerning.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 05:31:43 AM
Yeah, I heard about it five minutes after my post. He also said it was self-defense. I'll wait for confirmation. But assuming he qualifies as Antifa, that would mean the lefties still have lots of catching up to do.
yeah, that leaves 329 non-dead.
also, if the only card-carrying member of Antifa is now dead, does that mean that Antifa is back to non-existent?
Quote from: Herman on September 04, 2020, 06:59:12 AM
yeah, that leaves 329 non-dead.
also, if the only card-carrying member of Antifa is now dead, does that mean that Antifa is back to non-existent?
I've always found "its" existence dubious. I thought the name was a nod to a proud historical tradition of anti-fascism in Europe, a political or philosophical position rather than any kind of organized entity. As far as I'm concerned, I'm Antifa, despite never having met anyone else who claimed to be or joining a cabal.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 04, 2020, 07:11:21 AM
I've always found "its" existence dubious. I thought the name was a nod to a proud historical tradition of anti-fascism in Europe, a political or philosophical position rather than any kind of organized entity. As far as I'm concerned, I'm Antifa, despite never having met anyone else who claimed to be or joining a cabal.
I provided links earlier in the thread with the website and facebook group. If you do some google searches you'll find stuff. There is also an Antifa International twitter with 30k followers. Most organizing is done online nowadays, it seems, for any type of group...
To me it seems more like an umbrella term for far left groups. The riots going on now are BLM, not Antifa, so if someone says Antifa it'd be a bit misleading.
As for the label itself, yeah, as you can see from the last few pages, me, Florestan and Todd are also Antifa. :P
GALLUP: 50 % of Americans live in fear of medical bankruptcy.
50% of Americans are afraid of the other 50% ;D
I have always thought that it was interesting that the most wealthy Senators are Democrats.
Mark Warner has a new worth of $260 million.
Richard Blumenthal has a net worth of $80 million.
Dianne Feinstein has a net worth of $80 million.
To my knowledge they earned their wealth.
Trump doing his usul job as defender of his commander-in-chief Putin.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/donald-trump-casts-doubt-on-navalny-poisoning-saying-us-hasnt-had-any-proof
Quote from: milk on September 04, 2020, 06:11:05 AM
I'd rather eat moldy bread than arsenic but that doesn't make moldy bread particularly good for me.
Here's an (excerpt from an) interview on the occasion of the release of the book, "In Defense of Looting." The author is in the news because she also recently did an interview with NPR.
Examining Vicky Osterweil's Case for Looting
Q. Sorry, are you comparing small-business owners to small slaveholders?
I am saying that the naturalization of those systems, the naturalization of slavery and the way that property works was built on a violence that is very similar to the way that property is naturalized now. So the naturalization of property now is built on an unimaginably violent prison system, imperialist war, anti-Blackness to its core, and a murderous police, and now we have to start seeing property as part of those systems of oppression very, very directly.
Q. Yeah, so to go back to the omelette and eggs, it just seems like when you see any private property as akin to slavery, you're basically saying anything goes because slavery is really bad and you need force to destroy it.
No, I am not saying . . . Well, yeah. Let me think about that. I don't think anything goes. I don't think that attacks on property should be understood as going too far, and I think that we do actually have to overthrow the system of property and of capitalism and of the state. You have to do it in order to save the planet from ecocide, in order to serve the people in this community who are at constant threat of violence from the police. The police need to be abolished. Property needs to be abolished.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/vicky-osterweils-case-for-looting
Why do you think the words of one babbling idiot are worth airing? Discrediting a group or movement by citations of individual actors is ... well, let's just say not fair comment.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 05, 2020, 03:58:35 AM
Why do you think the words of one babbling idiot are worth airing? Discrediting a group or movement by citations of individual actors is ... well, let's just say not fair comment.
I don't think she discredits a movement. I have problems with where the left is these days but I don't think she's broadly representative of it. However, I do think she's a warning for everyone to consider. 1. The left has to know where it is. I already have FB friends sharing memes that rationalize destruction and looting. Bad idea. 2. This is how tump is going to paint the left. NPR ran something on her and had to sort of backtrack on the way it did that.
The warning is that if the left gives the impression that this is acceptable then they will hand the election to tump. It could happen.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 05, 2020, 03:58:35 AM
Why do you think the words of one babbling idiot are worth airing? Discrediting a group or movement by citations of individual actors is ... well, let's just say not fair comment.
She's not a babbling idiot, she's a full blown Marxist*. A capitalist entity thought publishing her book would be profitable.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/314tDH30zxL.jpg)
*to the degree that being a full blown Marxist is not the same as being a babbling idiot.
Quote from: JBS on September 05, 2020, 06:31:42 AM
She's not a babbling idiot, she's a full blown Marxist*. A capitalist entity thought publishing her book would be profitable.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/314tDH30zxL.jpg)
*to the degree that being a full blown Marxist is not the same as being a babbling idiot.
Florestan will love that ;D
The Pinnacle of Looting Apologia (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/there-no-defense-looting/615925/)
In a funny reversal of the normal polarities of "cancel culture," conservatives might object to NPR's decision to give Osterweil a platform at all, given that her defense of looting is a call to criminal behavior likely, even if not intended, to cause death and impoverishment. Should NPR also interview Nazis? Yes, actually—if the year is 1933, and most Americans don't know what Nazis believe. Osterweil is not a Nazi (I have even sweeter compliments for her where that came from), but she has taken up a position that others espouse implicitly. A full exploration of that position is exactly what we need, and Code Switch found its best defender. If Osterweil's defense is a bad one, she has now given other pro-looters a chance to reply to it and say why. If they do not, we can assume that they agree with Osterweil, and her argument is the pinnacle of looting apologia. A week ago, you could have said that looting might not be so bad, and I might have wondered what you meant by that. Now I will ask you if your reasons are the same as Osterweil's, and I will make fun of you if you say yes. This is progress. For that, thank Code Switch.
Marxists despise liberals like me, and I don't wonder why. We are reformist collaborators with the capitalist enemy (enthusiastically in my case). By improving conditions we rob energy from the revolutionary enterprise. Unlike our dimmer brothers on the right we know what we're doing.
Quote from: JBS on September 05, 2020, 06:31:42 AM
She's not a babbling idiot, she's a full blown Marxist*. A capitalist entity thought publishing her book would be profitable.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/314tDH30zxL.jpg)
*to the degree that being a full blown Marxist is not the same as being a babbling idiot.
I think the two categories have significant overlap. ;)
Has anyone noticed Trump finally being properly called out for characterizing members of the military and dead veterans as suckers and losers? Anyone surprised?
Part of Trump's border wall at risk of collapse just months after it was built (https://news.yahoo.com/part-trump-border-wall-risk-135746197.html)
Mexico wants its money back.
Quote from: Vicky Osterwell
The police need to be abolished. Property needs to be abolished.
Bullshit on stilts. Ms/Mrs Osterwll needs to be taken care of by a shrink asap.
Quote from: André on September 05, 2020, 07:23:46 AM
Florestan will love that ;D
Of course I do. Being a full-blown Marxist today is worse than being a babbling idiot.
Quote from: drogulus on September 05, 2020, 09:03:25 AM
Marxists despise liberals like me, and I don't wonder why. We are reformist collaborators with the capitalist enemy (enthusiastically in my case). By improving conditions we rob energy from the revolutionary enterprise. Unlike our dimmer brothers on the right we know what we're doing.
Social democracy is a great protection against communist revolution. In social democratic Finland the communists are an extremely small ground of far-left individuals with practially zero political power while the most left party with political power (Left Alliance) supports capitalism with strong social programs.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 04, 2020, 07:55:11 PM
50% of Americans are afraid of the other 50% ;D
Considering how divided the US is I'd say your statement isn't far off. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on September 05, 2020, 01:21:22 PM
Social democracy is a great protection against communist revolution.
Context-dependent, this is true. Yet context-dependent, social-democracy was not that great a protection against Nazi revolution. See the Weimar Republic context-dependent history.
If you really think social-democracy is THE answer to all problems past, present, future, of all the world's countries, including but not limited to, the USA, then you're wrong. Quite wrong. Absolutely wrong.
Quote from: Florestan on September 05, 2020, 01:55:11 PM
Context-dependent, this is true. Yet context-dependent, social-democracy was not that great a protection against Nazi revolution. See the Weimar Republic context-dependent history.
If you really think social-democracy is THE answer to all problems past, present, future, of all the world's countries, including but not limited to, the USA, then you're wrong. Quite wrong. Absolutely wrong.
Nothing is the answer to all past, present and future problems, but nothing isn't a good plan for capitalist economies.
Quote from: drogulus on September 05, 2020, 02:14:50 PM
nothing isn't a good plan
Two negatives in a row!!! My Romanian English teacher would have killed me for that! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Florestan on September 05, 2020, 02:27:08 PM
Two negatives in a row!!! My Romanian English teacher would have killed me for that! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nothing isn't a negative.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
At Least 4 Boats Sink During Disastrous Trump Parade in Texas (https://www.thedailybeast.com/several-boats-sink-during-disastrous-trump-parade-in-texas?ref=home)
Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody boats today. - Adm. Trump, 1st Earl Trump
Quote from: drogulus on September 05, 2020, 04:39:41 PM
At Least 4 Boats Sink During Disastrous Trump Parade in Texas (https://www.thedailybeast.com/several-boats-sink-during-disastrous-trump-parade-in-texas?ref=home)
Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody boats today. - Adm. Trump, 1st Earl Trump
Obviously the work of Antifa frogmen.
Not sure who came up with it, but this minor setback for
Making America Great Again Part Two: Taking the Mulligan has been dubbed
Dumbkirk.
Quote from: drogulus on September 05, 2020, 09:03:25 AM
The Pinnacle of Looting Apologia (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/there-no-defense-looting/615925/)
In a funny reversal of the normal polarities of "cancel culture," conservatives might object to NPR's decision to give Osterweil a platform at all, given that her defense of looting is a call to criminal behavior likely, even if not intended, to cause death and impoverishment. Should NPR also interview Nazis? Yes, actually—if the year is 1933, and most Americans don't know what Nazis believe. Osterweil is not a Nazi (I have even sweeter compliments for her where that came from), but she has taken up a position that others espouse implicitly. A full exploration of that position is exactly what we need, and Code Switch found its best defender. If Osterweil's defense is a bad one, she has now given other pro-looters a chance to reply to it and say why. If they do not, we can assume that they agree with Osterweil, and her argument is the pinnacle of looting apologia. A week ago, you could have said that looting might not be so bad, and I might have wondered what you meant by that. Now I will ask you if your reasons are the same as Osterweil's, and I will make fun of you if you say yes. This is progress. For that, thank Code Switch.
Marxists despise liberals like me, and I don't wonder why. We are reformist collaborators with the capitalist enemy (enthusiastically in my case). By improving conditions we rob energy from the revolutionary enterprise. Unlike our dimmer brothers on the right we know what we're doing.
That's a great quote. Last year I decided to find the best biography of Ho Chi Minh and read it. I was thinking maybe it'd be interesting. After all, HCM was said to have mastered a myriad of languages including French, Russian and Chinese. He worked on merchant boats and sailed around the world. He's said to have even worked as a dishwasher in Harlem.
Anyway, I also thought, well, maybe he was just liberating his country; after all, it's said that he lobbied Truman after WW2 and that the whole Vietnam war could have been avoided had the US realized early-on which horse to back.
Anyway, I gave up 1/3 through when I realized I was totally mistaken about HCM. Turns out he was a violent Marxist revolutionary through and through. Whenever he came into contact with moderate Vietnamese expats (in France), he espoused extreme violent revolution as the only answer to Vietnam's woes. He was always the most radical guy in the room. He even slept with (first) Marx and (Second) Lenin under his pillow.
Anyway, the thing I notice about "radicals" is how boring and humorless they all are. HCM was so boring actually.
It's interesting that Osterweil can find backing enough to write and publish such drivel. It's so wacky, one wonders if she really believes it. Of course the first step in selling lies is convincing yourself first.
Was that also the biographer's view of their subject?
Which biography was it?
Quote from: milk on September 06, 2020, 12:00:34 AM
Anyway, I gave up 1/3 through when I realized I was totally mistaken about HCM. Turns out he was a violent Marxist revolutionary through and through.
Unlike those gentle pacifist French colonizers.
Quote from: Daverz on September 06, 2020, 01:42:47 AM
Unlike those gentle pacifist French colonizers.
Well, that's why I gave HCM a go. The language of what is America today is exactly the same as that in some quarters. And I'm not only talking about "defenses of looting." I'm talking about M4BL, the policy and ideology platform of BLM.
HCM couldn't stand democracy, neither could the colonizers. What is America today if not the same? Is the American experiment dead? I was in an argument online with someone about John McWhorter. This person called him an "assimilationist" as a slur! Imagine that! Don't you find that shocking? But if you believe in whiteness and blackness, as the KKK did and as anti-racists do (and MLK didn't), then "assimilation" in America is as bad as the way the Borg did it.
Quote from: Florestan on September 05, 2020, 01:55:11 PM
Context-dependent, this is true. Yet context-dependent, social-democracy was not that great a protection against Nazi revolution. See the Weimar Republic context-dependent history.
If you really think social-democracy is THE answer to all problems past, present, future, of all the world's countries, including but not limited to, the USA, then you're wrong. Quite wrong. Absolutely wrong.
Nazi Germany had nothing to do with social democracy. Democracy is important part in social democracy and Nazi Germany wasn't democratic. It was fascist. Fascists used populism to dupe people into voting for them. That's not how you create social democracy.
Social democracy may not be the answer to all problems. Nothing is, but it seems to be the best way to have most problems solved. A country like the US with crony capitalism and corporate socialism needs social democracy badly.
There is a real schism between rural America and urban American and I have no idea how we can resolve these differences.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/09/03/trump-stay-in-office/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/09/03/trump-stay-in-office/?arc404=true)
A fitting title could be Apocalypse Now.
Or maybe The Day the Earth Stood Still
Quote from: milk on September 06, 2020, 02:31:30 AM
Well, that's why I gave HCM a go. The language of what is America today is exactly the same as that in some quarters. And I'm not only talking about "defenses of looting." I'm talking about M4BL, the policy and ideology platform of BLM.
HCM couldn't stand democracy, neither could the colonizers. What is America today if not the same? Is the American experiment dead? I was in an argument online with someone about John McWhorter. This person called him an "assimilationist" as a slur! Imagine that! Don't you find that shocking? But if you believe in whiteness and blackness, as the KKK did and as anti-racists do (and MLK didn't), then "assimilation" in America is as bad as the way the Borg did it.
The Ken Burns Viet Nam War documentary series had a segment on HCM, including his attempted communications with Truman, some of which were intercepted by the intelligence services and never delivered. I came away from it thinking it would have been better to back him rather than the French.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 06, 2020, 06:19:47 AM
There is a real schism between rural America and urban American and I have no idea how we can resolve these differences.
The real problem is that the Senate grossly under-represents urban areas:
"[...] California's 39 million people get two senators in Washington, while two Senators also represent states like Wyoming (578,000 people), Vermont (626,000 people), and Alaska (737,000 people). In 2013, the New York Times pointed out that the six senators from California, Texas, and New York represented the same number of people as the 62 senators from the smallest 31 states."
This is getting worse as urbanization increases. There's no reason that the cultural resentments of the residents of Wyoming, however acutely they may be felt, should have more than 60 times the representation of the concerns of, say, one neighborhood of Los Angeles.
Quote from: Daverz on September 06, 2020, 11:20:11 AMThere's no reason that the cultural resentments of the residents of Wyoming, however acutely they may be felt, should have more than 60 times the representation of the concerns of, say, one neighborhood of Los Angeles.
There is a reason. It is called the Constitution. It is working as designed. The concerns citizens of Wyoming have today regarding the potential power of California mirror exactly those citizens of Delaware had regarding the potential power of Virginia in 1789.
All eager beavers have to do to change the Senate is amend the Constitution.
Have at it.
Portland police make over 50 arrests, use tear gas as protesters throw fire bombs (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-protests-portland/portland-police-make-over-50-arrests-use-tear-gas-as-protesters-throw-fire-bombs-idUSKBN25X08R)
Wait, this can't be right. Previously, Herman, the uncontested internet expert on what is happening in Portland, stated definitively that only a few blocks of Portland had been affected by riots. Yet, there were violent protests on 113th and Stark last night. Again. One citizen was taken to the hospital for burns from a firebombing. Reuters has it all wrong, that must be it.
And that's not the first time this week something has happened outside the few blocks that Herman had expertly and definitively and factually claimed were impacted by riots: March to Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler's home declared riot Monday as burning debris thrown into building: Key takeaways (https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/09/protesters-march-to-portland-mayor-ted-wheelers-residence-monday-throw-birthday-party-demand-resignation-live-updates.html?ocid=uxbndlbing).
Wheeler lives (or lived) in the Pearl. How can this be? It can't. It conflicts with facts presented here on GMG.
^^^^^
So what if Herman is wrong.
The bottom line is that rogue police officers have been murdering people for decades.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 06, 2020, 02:19:37 PM
^^^^^
So what if Herman is wrong.
The bottom line is that rogue police officers have been murdering people for decades.
And decent people aren't okay with that.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 06, 2020, 09:23:04 AM
The Ken Burns Viet Nam War documentary series had a segment on HCM, including his attempted communications with Truman, some of which were intercepted by the intelligence services and never delivered. I came away from it thinking it would have been better to back him rather than the French.
Perhaps so. It also would have been better for something more moderate to have emerged. I'm not sure it's true that Truman never saw the letter. It wasn't the only communication by HCM to the US.
I watched that series with my wife, who is Vietnamese. We quite liked it. In Vietnam, there is no chance to review history from critical points of view.
The thing about HCM was that he was a radical through and through. He believed that a violent Marxist revolution was the only solution to colonialism. He hated democracy.
Anyway, this is off topic except that I do think Marxism is taken a bit too seriously in American academia. When I was at the U of Minnesota years ago I remember bumping into students that were joining a new graduate program in "cultural studies." It seemed to be largely devoted to post modernism, Marxism and critical theory. I didn't think anything of it at the time but now I wonder about it. I remember this because one of the students told me he was a Marxist. I'm not saying there shouldn't be Marxist professors. I'm for freedom in academia. But a whole graduate program on this strain of thinking?
I just wonder. We see Marxism in the founders of some of these organizations. If we see the US as indelibly evil and black liberation and essentialism combined with Marxist and critical theory (perhaps paradoxically), then destructive acts may be tacitly approved and their public disavowal (or rationalization) could be just tactical.
The language we see becoming popular is radical. It essentializes skin color and "culture." It sees culture as the natural cause rather than the outcome of behavior.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 06, 2020, 02:19:37 PM
^^^^^
So what if Herman is wrong.
The bottom line is that rogue police officers have been murdering people for decades.
What do you think is the solution to that?
Quote from: greg on September 06, 2020, 07:53:29 PM
What do you think is the solution to that?
If I understand the question the answer is I do not know.
Quote from: milk on September 06, 2020, 03:39:08 PM
Anyway, this is off topic except that I do think Marxism is taken a bit too seriously in American academia. When I was at the U of Minnesota years ago I remember bumping into students that were joining a new graduate program in "cultural studies." It seemed to be largely devoted to post modernism, Marxism and critical theory. I didn't think anything of it at the time but now I wonder about it. I remember this because one of the students told me he was a Marxist. I'm not saying there shouldn't be Marxist professors. I'm for freedom in academia. But a whole graduate program on this strain of thinking?
Being "a Marxist" in Humanities studies doesn't mean you want to turn wherever you are into a Workers' State or a miniature USSR. On the contrary, most of these Marxist literature professors are very well compensated (as academics go) and live in the nicer neighbourhoods, profiting from the inherent inequality in the system.
Being a Marxist scholar largely means disavowing the aestheticist approach to literature, you know, the old-time professors who said Henry James was great because his writing was beautiful, and made you a better person. A Marxist scholar would study James for the way his work is informed by class, race and gender, and how James's work sort of reinforces the way we used to look at society.
Quote from: Herman on September 06, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
Being "a Marxist" in Humanities studies doesn't mean you want to turn wherever you are into a Workers' State or a miniature USSR. On the contrary, most of these Marxist literature professors are very well compensated (as academics go) and live in the nicer neighbourhoods, profiting from the inherent inequality in the system.
Being a Marxist scholar largely means disavowing the aestheticist approach to literature, you know, the old-time professors who said Henry James was great because his writing was beautiful, and made you a better person. A Marxist scholar would study James for the way his work is informed by class, race and gender, and how James's work sort of reinforces the way we used to look at society.
This is an interesting area to get into. Does critical theory engender actions? I can say I just started seeing the word "praxis" come up in places recently and it made me laugh. This stuff does seem kind of funny and ridiculous until it doesn't. I understand where you're coming from: it's just about hermeneutics, and language and yada yada. I think a lot of marxists will disagree with you, even ones teaching and writing books.
I'm not sure you're on firm ground when you say it has no impact.
I remember my first year at university (in the late 80s) I had this feminist professor that "blew my mind." She said something to the effect of differences in physiology between the sexes, the fact that men are bigger and stronger than women, was a result of culture and that it will be eliminated in time due to progress in gender equality. For years I remembered this because I naively believed it. Now look what's happened: gender is thought to be entirely a mental state and sex as a biological category is meaningless. Now if you're woke, you think transgendered women should be allowed to compete in all female sports even without a medical regime.
Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure that ideas don't have consequences.
Quote from: milk on September 06, 2020, 11:58:59 PM
I'm not sure you're on firm ground when you say it has no impact.
?
I'm not sure I said this.
Quote from: milk on September 06, 2020, 11:58:59 PM
I remember my first year at university (in the late 80s) I had this feminist professor that "blew my mind." She said something to the effect of differences in physiology between the sexes, the fact that men are bigger and stronger than women, was a result of culture and that it will be eliminated in time due to progress in gender equality. For years I remembered this because I naively believed it. Now look what's happened: gender is thought to be entirely a mental state and sex as a biological category is meaningless.
Are you sure you're remembering this right? Even then, the professor in this class may have intended to be "thought provoking".
And there was no one in that class who asked how come men did not give birth?
Obviously much of the man / woman differences are part of cultural ideology (another key word in Marxist theory). But that doesn't mean all differences are 100% cultural.
"marxist" is used very inflationary these days. But nevertheless I'd say that it still carries different connonations compared to a professor characterized as Kantian, Hegelian, Weberian or even Burkean, all of which could also be used as a shorthand for certain traditions, methodological approaches etc. And not only for conservative red scare types but also for the self-described "marxists".
I was a music major. The only radical thing I studied was Webern.
Quote from: Herman on September 07, 2020, 12:48:18 AM
Are you sure you're remembering this right? Even then, the professor in this class may have intended to be "thought provoking".
And there was no one in that class who asked how come men did not give birth?
Obviously much of the man / woman differences are part of cultural ideology (another key word in Marxist theory). But that doesn't mean all differences are 100% cultural.
You're not up on your feminism.
Forget the Marxists already. The Overton Window is so right in the US politics, you can't see Marxists through it.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 07, 2020, 02:12:12 AM
I was a music major. The only radical thing I studied was Webern.
That's a good one! Could be a line in a movie, but only 1 % of the audience would get it.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 06, 2020, 08:59:12 PM
If I understand the question the answer is I do not know.
Yeah, me neither.
Quote from: Todd on September 07, 2020, 05:24:34 AM
This is the wrong forum if you want serious, fact-based answers.
Well, for this particular question, facts are helpful, but can only get us part of the way.
Any other countries throughout history have the same issue and fixed it?
There is also the problem that most, or almost all, of these cases that people are protesting don't even deserve a protest. Surely there's more protest-worthy examples out there?
Anyways, maybe make some law requiring video evidence of police murder to be sent to some court case? Idk how the process works but I'm assuming they can get away without a trial sometimes...
One of the cheapest debating tricks is to make an assertion without any documentation to back it up.
They will state that Democrats are whatever. The only way for a person to respond is to spend hours researching the 'whatever' to disprove it.
Like the accusation that we do not provide 'facts'. I have read many contributions where the writer provides all sort of documentation to support their positions.
I am not going to waste my time rummaging through this forum to find examples of 'facts'.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 07, 2020, 03:09:11 AM
Forget the Marxists already. The Overton Window is so right in the US politics, you can't see Marxists through it.
That's a good one! Could be a line in a movie, but only 1 % of the audience would get it.
Right, there's no representation of Marxists in our politics. Not even notionally.
Quote from: Daverz on September 08, 2020, 12:14:13 AM
Right, there's no representation of Marxists in our politics. Not even notionally.
However, corporations and the rich have a very strong representation in the US politics as about 90 % of the politicials* are brided by them.
* 100 % of the Republicans and about 80 % of the Democrats.
Quote from: Daverz on September 08, 2020, 12:14:13 AM
Right, there's no representation of Marxists in our politics. Not even notionally.
BLM's coalition partner is M4BL (movement for black lives). They're not purely Marxist, if such a thing exists. Maybe just a little bit influenced in their explicit anti-capitalism? My disclaimer is that I don't necessarily support or oppose anything they say specifically. Anyway, you can are a look at some of their ideas. I find these kinds do things interesting and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of young protesters believed in this stuff - maybe some old ones too.
BTW, ironically, they're underwritten (in a roundabout way) by the
Ford Foundation, Morgan Stanley, and Ben & Jerry's.
Excuse my cherry picking from their website:
We believe and understand that Black people will never achieve liberation under the current global racialized capitalist system...
[we call for] Reparations...in the form of full and free access for all Black people...to lifetime education including: free access and open admissions to public community colleges and universities, technical education...retroactive forgiveness of student loans...guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people...corporate and government reparations focused on healing ongoing physical and mental trauma, and ensuring our access and control of food sources, housing and land... mandated public school curriculums...
A reallocation of funds at the federal, state and local level from policing and incarceration...
The retroactive decriminalization, immediate release and record expungement of all drug related offenses and prostitution...
A constitutional right at the state and federal level to a fully-funded education...A progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state, and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth...
We demand a world where those most impacted in our communities control the laws, institutions, and policies that are meant to serve us...Direct democratic community control of local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies..
[the government shall] Provide reparations to survivors of police violence and their families, and to survivors of prison, detention and deportation violence, and their families....Decriminalize youth under 23...Interrupt and end criminalization and deportation of Black women...Ensure that Black women have access to resources that will enable them to escape and avoid interpersonal and community violence, including living wage employment; quality, accessible, and affordable housing; immigration status; universal, quality, and accessible health care; comprehensive, culturally appropriate community-based mental health care; universal, quality, and accessible childcare; and healthy environments...
...Discrimination, harassment, and violence against Black trans, intersex, queer, and gender nonconforming (LGBTQ+) people pervade virtually every institution and setting...
[the government must] End profiling, criminalization, police, and prison violence against Black trans and gender nonconforming people...
[we demand] A moratorium on all prison, jail, immigrant and youth detention construction, without an accompanying expansion of home arrest or GPS monitoring or other forms of incarceration...
[the government shall] Decommission all prisons, jails, and immigration and youth detention centers not currently imprisoning people, followed by demolition or repurposing for non-punitive purposes....
....Retroactive elimination of sentences of life without parole (LWOP) and sentences that will result in death by incarceration...
...Eliminate restrictions and exclusions on access to housing, education, employment, social programs and benefits, voting rights, parental rights, and other civil rights based on prior criminal convictions...
A marxist position would mean handing over the control of most businesses, certainly all key industries to the state or some kind of union, syndicate or whatever, i.e. stop privately owned means of production. Even granted that neomarxism does not only/mainly focus on economics and control of the means of production, I don't see anything in the quoted/bolded excerpts that refers to means of production and without a focus on economy, I wouldn't call a position marxist.
It seems rather like a vulgarized and extended version of welfare state benefits similar to European social democracies, only with a particular (anti?)racial twist.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 08, 2020, 03:45:17 AM
A marxist position would mean handing over the control of most businesses, certainly all key industries to the state or some kind of union, syndicate or whatever, i.e. stop privately owned means of production. Even granted that neomarxism does not only/mainly focus on economics and control of the means of production, I don't see anything in the quoted/bolded excerpts that refers to means of production and without a focus on economy, I wouldn't call a position marxist.
It seems rather like a vulgarized and extended version of welfare state benefits similar to European social democracies, only with a particular (anti?)racial twist.
Perhaps that's true. They do mention an explicit anti-capitalist stance at the beginning or maybe it's the idea that current global capitalism is racist? Why do I get the feeling that Jews are gonna get the blame for this? Maybe I'm just paranoid. Anyway, I support universal healthcare and education i
n theory. But I think it'd be a bad idea to do it based on race. And immigration based on race? They WILL have to change some laws! Some of that stuff sounds like it was written by college kids who just toked up after walking out of an Angela Davis lecture. There's a famous Marxist.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 08, 2020, 03:33:34 AM
However, corporations and the rich have a very strong representation in the US politics as about 90 % of the politicials* are brided by them.
* 100 % of the Republicans and about 80 % of the Democrats.
"brided" is a bit of a head scratcher. Perhaps you wanted to say "wedded to", like "beholden"?
Quote from: Herman on September 08, 2020, 05:19:53 AM
"brided" is a bit of a head scratcher. Perhaps you wanted to say "wedded to", like "beholden"?
I imagine by bribed he meant something like: given large quantities of campaign money, much of it dark, in the hope that those who receive it will stay in power and promote legislation favorable to the donors.
Quote from: Herman on September 08, 2020, 05:19:53 AM
"brided" is a bit of a head scratcher. Perhaps you wanted to say "wedded to", like "beholden"?
Bribed. Politicians are "bribed." One could look at the system as a kind of legalized bribery. Isn't it true that corporations through lobbyists write the laws and "guide" politicians. It used to be that labor was a counterbalance. In what countries are elections Publicly funded? Seems like American politicians spend half their time begging for money from big donors.
Quote from: milk on September 08, 2020, 03:36:11 AM
BLM's
I'm going to put you on my ignore list as this obsession with requiring POC and only POC to moderate themselves is creeping me out.
Which is a more effective online rhetorical tool, publicly pronouncing that someone is being put on the "ignore" list, or publicly pronouncing that one is leaving the site?
Quote from: Herman on September 08, 2020, 05:19:53 AM
"brided" is a bit of a head scratcher. Perhaps you wanted to say "wedded to", like "beholden"?
Bribed. Sorry my typo.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 08, 2020, 05:43:40 AM
I imagine by bribed he meant something like: given large quantities of campaign money, much of it dark, in the hope that those who receive it will stay in power and promote legislation favorable to the donors.
Yes, correct. ;)
Quote from: Todd on September 08, 2020, 07:50:18 AM
Which is a more effective online rhetorical tool, publicly pronouncing that someone is being put on the "ignore" list, or publicly pronouncing that one is leaving the site?
The former. 71dB announced I'm on his ignore list. Which means there is no sense in my making posts in the vain hope of making him understand why he's wrong, and sharply reduces the temptation to lose my temper and call him an idiot.
Quote from: JBS on September 08, 2020, 11:15:02 AM
The former. 71dB announced I'm on his ignore list. Which means there is no sense in my making posts in the vain hope of making him understand why he's wrong, and sharply reduces the temptation to lose my temper and call him an idiot.
Actually, he'll read your posts anyway. May even read them
first...
I am pro-choice, I believe in evolution and I believe in climate change. So I can understand if a person wants to put me on their ignore list.
Quote from: Todd on September 08, 2020, 07:50:18 AM
Which is a more effective online rhetorical tool, publicly pronouncing that someone is being put on the "ignore" list, or publicly pronouncing that one is leaving the site?
I did that with you and it wasn't very effective so I reversed it. Honestly, I enjoy the thread more with you in it.
Quote from: Daverz on September 08, 2020, 07:20:32 AM
I'm going to put you on my ignore list as this obsession with requiring POC and only POC to moderate themselves is creeping me out.
I doubt all POC approve of M4BL or BLM for that matter. I am not uncomfortable with discussing the issue of the day but I wonder if I've struck some kind of sensitive spot in Daverz?
Quote from: Jo498 on September 08, 2020, 03:45:17 AM
A marxist position would mean handing over the control of most businesses, certainly all key industries to the state or some kind of union, syndicate or whatever, i.e. stop privately owned means of production. Even granted that neomarxism does not only/mainly focus on economics and control of the means of production, I don't see anything in the quoted/bolded excerpts that refers to means of production and without a focus on economy, I wouldn't call a position marxist.
Few, if any at all, of the demands milk brought to our attention could be implemented without the federal government exercising a strong control of, or overwhelming influence on, the domestic policies of all states, most businesses and all key industries, as well as all educational instiutions and the whole of academia.
Sure, one doesn't have to directly ask for the nationalization of, say, building industry, building managemment or rents. All one has to do is ask for the government to ensure "affordable housing for all".
Quote from: Florestan on September 09, 2020, 01:05:30 AM
Few, if any at all, of the demands milk brought to our attention could be implemented without the federal government exercising a strong control of, or overwhelming influence on, the domestic policies of all states, most businesses and all key industries, as well as all educational instiutions and the whole of academia.
Sure, one doesn't have to directly ask for the nationalization of, say, building industry, building managemment or rents. All one has to do is ask for the government to ensure "affordable housing for all".
Private building industry makes the houses. The Goverment buys the houses with tax money and rents them out at affordable prices. People living on the street cause so much unnecessory costs it is cheaper to give people a small roof over their head.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 09, 2020, 01:26:37 AM
Private building industry makes the houses. The Goverment buys the houses with tax money and rents them out at affordable prices.
I saw a unicorn recently.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 08, 2020, 01:07:43 PM
I am pro-choice,
I am too. I am not religious nor do I want to oppress women. In fact I'd be ok with if only women had a say in this particur issue.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 08, 2020, 01:07:43 PMI believe in evolution and I believe in climate change.
Same here. I am scientifically literate person. I believed in evolution the second it was teached/explained to me in school because it made perfect sense to me and I have never heard a competing theory that makes any sense to me (Intelligant Design and Creation sound childish and dumb to me not to mention they explain nothing because the divine operator remains unexplained). I think I have believed in climate change since the 80's ever since I have been aware of it. Nowadays I suppose denying climate change is pretty difficult given the fact how much the climate seems to be changing and now it's about whether the change is man-made or not.
Quote from: Florestan on September 09, 2020, 01:36:06 AM
I saw a unicorn recently.
I'd check what pills I'm taking if I were you.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 09, 2020, 01:26:37 AM
Private building industry makes the houses. The Goverment buys the houses with tax money and rents them out at affordable prices. People living on the street cause so much unnecessory costs it is cheaper to give people a small roof over their head.
I admit it's a hodgepodge of demands, some of them incredible sounding. Why spend time on it? It's just interesting that so many corporations and entities fund them. I find that bizarre and interesting and relevant. It may not be represented so much in national politics but it's there in local politics. When companies charged businesses in Minneapolis a load of dough to rebuild what was destroyed, the city council blamed capitalism. Actually, the companies were just complying with environmental regulations. Anyway, these ideas are funded and already prevalent on campuses throughout the US.
Are the ideas coherent enough to be any -ism? A "radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth"? If it weren't an oxymoron I'd say it was Marxist enough.
I actually think this kind of rhetoric comes from some kind of privileged place - from academia. The good Democratic people of Georgia (capital "D"), black and white and whatever, shushed BLM when they booed Clinton four years ago, and voted for Biden this time. Ok he's not my preferred candidate. But what does that say about the support of these organizations among regular working people?
Quote from: 71 dB on September 09, 2020, 01:53:47 AM
I'd check what pills I'm taking if I were you.
Thanks for the big chuckle you gave me. Really, that's way too funny coming from you. :laugh:
Quote from: Florestan on September 09, 2020, 01:57:45 AM
Thanks for the big chuckle you gave me. Really, that's way too funny coming from you. :laugh:
You're welcome! I'm funnier than you think. US politics just is a damn depressing topic and it doesn't help so few here seems to take what I write seriously or think I might know what I am talking about.
Quote from: Florestan on September 09, 2020, 01:05:30 AM
Few, if any at all, of the demands milk brought to our attention could be implemented without the federal government exercising a strong control of, or overwhelming influence on, the domestic policies of all states, most businesses and all key industries, as well as all educational instiutions and the whole of academia.
Sure, one doesn't have to directly ask for the nationalization of, say, building industry, building managemment or rents. All one has to do is ask for the government to ensure "affordable housing for all".
Housing is a special case. And it used to be treated like that in most capitalist countries during the "social democratic era" from the 40ties until the 1990s. Therefore it was usually not nationalized in the way trains and telephone were but neither was it completely left to an open market.
But that's beside the point I was trying to make. One can say that the old Marxists were economically wrong but they were in any case very economically aware. The main point of dialectic materialism was that economical theory is almost a "master science" (somewhat like philosophy and theology before) that holds the key to virtually all historical and social developments and structures. The vulgar pseudomarxists of today come across as economically naive or ignorant, at best. I have the impression that they take some kind of working economy for granted and only want to redistribute in a way that favors some groups (mostly the group Marx would have called Lumpenproletariat). Sure, redistribution would be a part marxism but it would not be the core and the analysis would have to go far deeper. Taking the quoted stuff above it is completely unclear how these groups want to achieve these demands. As I said above, a lot of these were already mostly achieved in Western European capitalist social democracies although some structures have been re-privatized and especially housing seems a hot issue now in a way it had not been in the 70s or so. OTOH one could also connect a total marxist "system change" with these demands. But they don't say that and they don't explain (like a real Marxist should) the economics of the desired situation.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 09, 2020, 05:53:04 AM
it is completely unclear how these groups want to achieve these demands.
I can't help making the same point I already made: the only way their program could be achieved is by giving the federal government massive regulatory and interventionist powers in all matters social, economic and educational, throughout all states, at all levels (which is exactly what the Founding Fathers dreaded and the US Constitution was devised to prevent, and which I suspect a majority of Americans, including the classical Left, oppose). They might not say it and they might not even be aware of it, but it couldn't be done in any other way.
Quote from: Florestan on September 09, 2020, 06:32:36 AM
I can't help making the same point I already made: the only way their program could be achieved is by giving the federal government massive regulatory and interventionist powers in all matters social, economic and educational, throughout all states, at all levels (which is exactly what the Founding Fathers dreaded and the US Constitution was devised to prevent, and which I suspect a majority of Americans, including the classical Left, oppose). They might not say it and they might not even be aware of it, but it couldn't be done in any other way.
Rem acu tetigisti.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2020, 07:42:48 AM
Rem acu tetigisti.
"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."- Abraham Maslow
Quote from: Florestan on September 09, 2020, 06:32:36 AM
I can't help making the same point I already made: the only way their program could be achieved is by giving the federal government massive regulatory and interventionist powers in all matters social, economic and educational, throughout all states, at all levels (which is exactly what the Founding Fathers dreaded and the US Constitution was devised to prevent, and which I suspect a majority of Americans, including the classical Left, oppose). They might not say it and they might not even be aware of it, but it couldn't be done in any other way.
You are aware you're really in Romania - the way you're talking about the Founding Fathers and stuff?
Government is always involved in housing. They decide the zoning. It's not anti-American to do so.
Quote from: Herman on September 09, 2020, 07:59:48 AM
You are aware you're really in Romania - the way you're talking about the Founding Fathers and stuff?
Government is always involved in housing. They decide the zoning. It's not anti-American to do so.
Zoning and such are handled by local governments. There is some federal involvement, but it's done in a more hands-off matter.
The Leftist approach would involve the federal government more directly and in specific decisions.
Quote from: JBS on September 09, 2020, 08:13:58 AM
Zoning and such are handled by local governments. There is some federal involvement, but it's done in a more hands-off matter.
The Leftist approach would involve the federal government more directly and in specific decisions.
You mean like building "the Wall"?
Quote from: Herman on September 09, 2020, 08:17:31 AM
You mean like building "the Wall"?
I'm guessing you have no real understanding of the differences among federal, state, and municipal governments and what areas each one handles.
Quote from: Herman on September 09, 2020, 07:59:48 AM
You are aware you're really in Romania - the way you're talking about the Founding Fathers and stuff?
I don't see how being a Romanian prevents one from reading the FF or the US constitution.
Well, some members here believe that non-US citizens or residents are automatically disqualified from commenting on US politics... ::)
Founding Fathers would be turning their graves if they knew what the country has become.
Quote from: ritter on September 09, 2020, 09:30:10 AM
Well, some members here believe that non-US citizens or residents are automatically disqualified from commenting on US politics... ::)
They are.
On the new topic of housing, I'd love to see a detailed and fact-based discussion about local, state, and federal involvement in US housing, including pertinent local zoning rules, local and state environmental regulations, state incentives, and federal banking statutes and regulations. I am absolutely certain that GMG will set a better than academic standard in any such discussion. As a bonus, I'd like to see how the topic ties to the border wall. Should be good.
https://www.youtube.com/v/UE9BXkQ-SRc
When Fred Trump began exhibiting symptoms of dementia his son mocked him.
Quote from: Todd on September 09, 2020, 09:54:24 AM
They [non-US citizens or residents] are [disqualified from commenting on US politics...].
You don't understand how internet discussion boards work. This is not
your playground were
you can disqualify other people. I'm affraid we Europeans for example in average understand US politics better than Americans in average. That's not to say we Europeans understand US politics particularly well. It's because a lot of Americans are utterly ignorant about even basic things thanks to the abyssmal corporate media and overall frustration of politics in general.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 09, 2020, 10:25:12 AM
You don't understand how internet discussion boards work. This is not your playground were you can disqualify other people. I'm affraid we Europeans for example in average understand US politics better than Americans in average. That's not to say we Europeans understand US politics particularly well. It's because a lot of Americans are utterly ignorant about even basic things thanks to the abyssmal corporate media and overall frustration of politics in general.
Americans are the target audience for American political discourse, a disadvantage that can be overcome with effort.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 09, 2020, 10:25:12 AMYou don't understand how internet discussion boards work. This is not your playground were you can disqualify other people. I'm affraid we Europeans for example in average understand US politics better than Americans in average. That's not to say we Europeans understand US politics particularly well. It's because a lot of Americans are utterly ignorant about even basic things thanks to the abyssmal corporate media and overall frustration of politics in general.
I understand perfectly well how internet forums work. That is entirely distinct from whether people are qualified to comment on various topics. People comment on topics they are unqualified to comment on all the time. See, for instance, GMG.
Quote from: drogulus on September 09, 2020, 10:42:02 AM
Americans are the target audience for American political discourse, a disadvantage that can be overcome with effort.
Fair enow.
Some details about the content of Woodward's book Rage, including the handling of the Corona virus etc.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/09/politics/bob-woodward-rage-book-trump-coronavirus/index.html
Quote from: 71 dB on September 09, 2020, 10:25:12 AM
It's because a lot of Americans are utterly ignorant about even basic things thanks to the abyssmal corporate media and overall frustration of politics in general.
Translation
Most Americans don't share my leftist premises.
Quote from: Todd on September 09, 2020, 10:54:47 AM
I understand perfectly well how internet forums work. That is entirely distinct from whether people are qualified to comment on various topics. People comment on topics they are unqualified to comment on all the time. See, for instance, GMG.
What makes you qualified or are you saying you are one of the unqualified ones?
I think I am somewhat qualified because I have followed US politics pretty intensively for almost 4 years now. There are areas I know less about and areas I know more about (subjects discusses a lot by the lefties I follow). I'm usually writing about the areas I feel I know quite well and I avoid writing about subjects I know less about.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 09, 2020, 12:35:38 PMWhat makes you qualified
I know bullshit when I read it.
Quote from: JBS on September 09, 2020, 12:19:44 PM
Translation
Most Americans don't share my leftist premises.
Yet, he prides himself on "knowing more about American politics than some Americans here."
University of Michigan-Dearborn apologizes for 'non-people of color' virtual event
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2020/09/university-of-michigan-dearborn-apologizes-for-non-people-of-color-virtual-event.html
Quote
The original intent for the cafes was to provide students from marginalized communities a space that allowed for them to exist freely without having to normalize their lives and experiences, the statement said. It also wanted to provide students who do not identify as persons of color the opportunity to deepen their understanding of race and racism without harming or relying on students of color to educate them, the statement said.
Trying to bring back segregation...
Horseshoe theory alive and well. As Jreg once said, "All the extremes are on the same team!" ;)
) So perhaps we need to acknowledge that it has come to this: Real, existing conservatism as it exists in America in 2020 is an accomplice to, an apologist for, and an enabler of Trump's nativist, populist, unconservative, and illiberal authoritarianism.
This authoritarianism is as far from Burke as from Hayek. As far from a concern for liberty as for virtue. As far from American greatness as from American decency. And "conservatism" now rides along with this authoritarianism in a nicely cushioned sidecar.
Maybe we shouldn't be too surprised. After all, there were always elements in American conservatism which carried these traits. Many of us believed that they had been, over the decades, suppressed or expunged. But that turns out not to have been the case. Instead, they were merely dormant, ready to emerge and be exploited by an able demagogue in tune with the times. (
American Conservatism, b. 1955, d. 2020? (https://thebulwark.com/american-conservatism-b-1955-d-2020/)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2020, 03:46:04 PM
) So perhaps we need to acknowledge that it has come to this: Real, existing conservatism as it exists in America in 2020 is an accomplice to, an apologist for, and an enabler of Trump's nativist, populist, unconservative, and illiberal authoritarianism.
This authoritarianism is as far from Burke as from Hayek. As far from a concern for liberty as for virtue. As far from American greatness as from American decency. And "conservatism" now rides along with this authoritarianism in a nicely cushioned sidecar.
Maybe we shouldn't be too surprised. After all, there were always elements in American conservatism which carried these traits. Many of us believed that they had been, over the decades, suppressed or expunged. But that turns out not to have been the case. Instead, they were merely dormant, ready to emerge and be exploited by an able demagogue in tune with the times. (
American Conservatism, b. 1955, d. 2020? (https://thebulwark.com/american-conservatism-b-1955-d-2020/)
I don't for one moment buy these excuses. Trump did not invent the horse he rode in on. The party was primed for him by decades of increasing hostility to science and any means of effective problem solving even for their own problems. It's bad enough they once listened to Hayek, now they don't even know who he was. Conservatism entered the racket phase decades ago. Trump is the cherry on top. The mob now has a boss worthy of them.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2020, 03:46:04 PM
) So perhaps we need to acknowledge that it has come to this: Real, existing conservatism as it exists in America in 2020 is an accomplice to, an apologist for, and an enabler of Trump's nativist, populist, unconservative, and illiberal authoritarianism.
This authoritarianism is as far from Burke as from Hayek. As far from a concern for liberty as for virtue. As far from American greatness as from American decency. And "conservatism" now rides along with this authoritarianism in a nicely cushioned sidecar.
Maybe we shouldn't be too surprised. After all, there were always elements in American conservatism which carried these traits. Many of us believed that they had been, over the decades, suppressed or expunged. But that turns out not to have been the case. Instead, they were merely dormant, ready to emerge and be exploited by an able demagogue in tune with the times. (
American Conservatism, b. 1955, d. 2020? (https://thebulwark.com/american-conservatism-b-1955-d-2020/)
As the cultural issues became more prevalent and divided in this century, the right-wing agendas in cultural issues became more influential than the conservative agendas in economic issues. The rise of cultural right-wing in the electorate was salient even before Trump, especially at the time of the first black president. Actually it's liberals who want the change- ie., gay rights, womens' rights, gun control, anti-discrimination of ethnic minorities, govtl health insurance, etc. The conservatives just want to maintain the pre-Cvil Rights regime- rule by the social conventions, white privilege, patriarchy, Christianity, etc.
I have been watching the news about Woodward's book and the recordings of the interviews.
There is nothing there that most of the opposition have known about Trump for years.
What gets me is that in spite of what has happened Trump still has the support of at least 30% of the electorate.
There are a variety of reasons that people support Trump. The problem is they hate people like me so much, that they would rather see a monster in the White House.
Quote from: JBS on September 09, 2020, 08:34:50 AM
I'm guessing you have no real understanding of the differences among federal, state, and municipal governments and what areas each one handles.
Well, the impression I have is that Trump uses federal funds (out of the Defense budget for instance) to build parts of the Wall (read: reward friends of his).
So that doesn't help the idea that using large amounts of Federal money for funny utopic projects is typically a "Left" thing - apart from the question if there is such a thing as "Left" in the USA.
Quote from: Todd on September 09, 2020, 12:45:53 PM
I know bullshit when I read it.
but less so when you write it (most of the time)?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2020, 03:46:04 PM
) So perhaps we need to acknowledge that it has come to this: Real, existing conservatism as it exists in America in 2020 is an accomplice to, an apologist for, and an enabler of Trump's nativist, populist, unconservative, and illiberal authoritarianism.
This authoritarianism is as far from Burke as from Hayek. As far from a concern for liberty as for virtue. As far from American greatness as from American decency. And "conservatism" now rides along with this authoritarianism in a nicely cushioned sidecar.
Maybe we shouldn't be too surprised. After all, there were always elements in American conservatism which carried these traits. Many of us believed that they had been, over the decades, suppressed or expunged. But that turns out not to have been the case. Instead, they were merely dormant, ready to emerge and be exploited by an able demagogue in tune with the times. (
American Conservatism, b. 1955, d. 2020? (https://thebulwark.com/american-conservatism-b-1955-d-2020/)
American Conservatism will be on its deathbed if the orange man gets another four years. Maybe liberal democracy will be in trouble too, but by a push from the critical-theory far left as well. It seems like the tump right and the woke left, in their own respective ways, don't agree with the rights and procedures and values of liberal democracy.
Quote from: milk on September 10, 2020, 01:30:16 AM
American Conservatism will be on its deathbed if the orange man gets another four years. Maybe liberal democracy will be in trouble too, but by a push from the critical-theory far left as well. It seems like the tump right and the woke left, in their own respective ways, don't agree with the rights and procedures and values of liberal democracy.
Don't you think that's a bit of a false equivalence?
Trump is using the power of the WH and the GOP so subvert democracy and line his and his friends' pockets in the process.
The "far left" is a bunch of guys writing unreadable books on campus and demonstrating in the streets for as long as the weather allows. They have virtually no power, other than what Fox etc makes them look like by using a camera lens that creates the illusion that "entire cities are being destroyed" rather than a couple of city blocks.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 01:45:47 AM
Don't you think that's a bit of a false equivalence?
Trump is using the power of the WH and the GOP so subvert democracy and line his and his friends' pockets in the process.
The "far left" is a bunch of guys writing unreadable books on campus and demonstrating in the streets for as long as the weather allows. They have virtually no power, other than what Fox etc makes them look like by using a camera lens that creates the illusion that "entire cities are being destroyed" rather than a couple of city blocks.
Well, they have the academies, the Ford Foundation and Morgan Stanley. They have their own media.
Trump is a danger in one way, woke-ism is a danger of another sort. If tump wins, the left will have played a part in his victory.
So, as the interview tapes with Bob Woodward demonstrate, Trump was informed that the pandemic was a deadly threat in January, but he lied about it for months. Why? He was afraid — or more likely directly informed by the NSC — that the news would tank the economy. He sacrificed tens of thousands of lives for his political interests. And in case anyone has forgotten, when originally called out for his inaction, he repeatedly told a different lie: that the intelligence never reached his desk.
In other news, a whistle blower complaint from DHS alleges that from the White House down there was pressure to falsify reports on terrorist threats, to downplay the dangers of domestic white supremacist terrorists, known to be responsible for hundreds of murders, while exaggerating the dangers of left leaning folks like Antifa activists, so far shown to be responsible for, perhaps, one. The latter awaits confirmation.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 01:45:47 AM
Don't you think that's a bit of a false equivalence?
It is without a doubt a grotesque false equivalence.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
but less so when you write it (most of the time)?
Tepid.
Quote from: milk on September 10, 2020, 01:30:16 AMAmerican Conservatism will be on its deathbed if the orange man gets another four years.
Unlikely.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 10, 2020, 04:27:14 AMSo, as the interview tapes with Bob Woodward demonstrate
While certain self-styled intellectuals and very serious people still hang on Mr Woodward's every word, perhaps someone could demonstrate how relevant he is in terms of influencing votes. Clearly, publishing houses have a vested interest in profitable timing, but that's not the same as actual, real-world impact.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 10, 2020, 04:27:14 AMIt is without a doubt a grotesque false equivalence.
Logicians of the world, unite.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
but less so when you write it (most of the time)?
Trumpkins don't know bullshit when they eat it.
Quote from: Todd on September 10, 2020, 04:33:25 AM
While certain self-styled intellectuals and very serious people still hang on Mr Woodward's every word, perhaps someone could demonstrate how relevant he is in terms of influencing votes. Clearly, publishing houses have a vested interest in profitable timing, but that's not the same as actual, real-world impact.
Woodward's words have nothing to do with it. His influence or lack thereof is irrelevant. It's Trump on tape proving himself guilty of misleading the American public and purposely forestalling mitigation efforts in a way that cost thousands of lives. It will have real-world impact —that is, even beyond the horrendous death toll.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 10, 2020, 05:12:43 AM
Woodward's words have nothing to do with it. His influence or lack thereof is irrelevant. It's Trump on tape proving himself guilty of misleading the American public and forestalling mitigation efforts in a way that cost thousands of lives. It will have real-world impact —that is, even beyond the horrendous death toll.
Yes, I know, it's all about another chance to virtue signal.
Orange man bad.
Quote from: Todd on September 10, 2020, 05:16:15 AM
Yes, I know, it's all about another chance to virtue signal.
Orange man bad.
That idiotic term doesn't even scan in this context. Have you considered maybe pulling your head out and getting some air? The lack of oxygen seems to be affecting your — I almost said "thought processes" — meme regurgitation.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 10, 2020, 05:30:10 AM
That idiotic term doesn't even scan in this context. Have you considered maybe pulling your head out and getting some air? The lack of oxygen seems to be affecting your — I almost said "thought processes" — meme regurgitation.
Goodness.
Quote from: drogulus on September 09, 2020, 07:19:01 PM
It's bad enough they once listened to Hayek
Have you ever read Hayek? If yes, I' be only too glad to know from you what's wrong with him. If no, no.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 10, 2020, 05:30:10 AM
That idiotic term doesn't even scan in this context. Have you considered maybe pulling your head out and getting some air? The lack of oxygen seems to be affecting your — I almost said "thought processes" — meme regurgitation.
Corrigendum: Trumpkins
do know bullshit when they eat it. It's just that they fancy the taste
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2020, 06:18:40 AM
Have you ever read Hayek? If yes, I' be only too glad to know from you what's wrong with him. If no, no.
Whenever I see select names dropped - Hayek, Rand, Mises, etc for the "intellectual" crowd; Hannity, other conservative blatherers du jour for the more media savvy crowd - I know the person dropping the names has nothing insightful to write. It's vacuous.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 01:45:47 AM
The "far left" is a bunch of guys writing unreadable books on campus and demonstrating in the streets for as long as the weather allows. They have virtually no power, other than what Fox etc makes them look like by using a camera lens that creates the illusion that "entire cities are being destroyed" rather than a couple of city blocks.
Yeah, right.
The Devil's greatest trick was to convince people he doesn't exist.
Have you ever read Antonio Gramsci? He was probably the most astute political theorist ever: ideas do have consequences, especially if espoused by a critical mass; if you win ideologically in the academia, the intelligentsia, the press and the popular culture, all the rest will follow in due time.
Quote from: Todd on September 10, 2020, 06:29:53 AM
Whenever I see select names dropped - Hayek, Rand, Mises, etc for the "intellectual" crowd; Hannity, other conservative blatherers du jour for the more media savvy crowd - I know the person dropping the names has nothing insightful to write. It's vacuous.
The bitter irony is that there is little, if anything at all, in Hayek's epistemology that drogulus would not subscribe to.
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2020, 06:30:05 AM
Yeah, right.
The Devil's greatest trick was to convince people he doesn't exist.
Have you ever read Antonio Gramsci? He was probably the most astute political theorist ever: ideas do have consequences, especially if espoused by a critical mass; if you win ideologically in the academia, the intelligentsia, the press and the popular culture, all the rest will follow in due time.
Silly superstitious hogwash.
Most ideas have no consequences whatsoever.
And this whole notion of "winning" in academia is just ridiculous.
All these people on the right are looking at the world in terms of winning or losing to get themselves in some degree of excitement. They need to be scared. They need an enemy. Please do look under your bed every night, Florestan; maybe there's a Gramsci hiding.
There is one big winner and that is market thinking, decades ago. Two generations have grown up in a world dominated by market thinking, so there is really no way back anymore. Thinking outside of that capitalist box is impossible; no one would know how to do it in a feasible way. The emerging economies are all in the same ideological boat, so "the Left" and "Gramsci" and professors with fancy salon socialist salons are all tourist attractions now, with no influence whatsoever, as the market juggernaut rushes towards total destruction of the planet.
Enjoy the ride!
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 07:39:44 AM...as the market juggernaut rushes towards total destruction of the planet.
Scary.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 07:39:44 AM
Most ideas have no consequences whatsoever.
True, but the few ones that had consequences changed the face of the world, for better or or worse.
Quote
And this whole notion of "winning" in academia is just ridiculous.
By your own admission you run a business in The Netherlands. How would you know what's going on in the US academia?
Quote
All these people on the right are looking at the world in terms of winning or losing to get themselves in some degree of excitement. They need to be scared. They need an enemy. Please do look under your bed every night, Florestan; maybe there's a Gramsci hiding.
I do not belong to the right. All, and I mean all, political tests and quizzes I took put me solidly in the center.
Quotethe market juggernaut rushes towards total destruction of the planet.
If you were really concerned/scared about that, you'd have long since lost your sleep and never been able to listen to Ebene playing Beethoven any more, let alone post on GMG about them.
Give me a break, willya?
Quote from: Todd on September 10, 2020, 07:57:06 AM
Scary.
The first time I've ever met the term "juggernaut" was when reading
Jules Verne's
The Steam House. I must have been 12 or 13. Now, he was right about so many things, for instance flight to the moon, telegraph, holography --- so
it is scary, man. Beware!
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2020, 06:18:40 AM
Have you ever read Hayek? If yes, I' be only too glad to know from you what's wrong with him. If no, no.
Hayek thought that busts could be prevented by preventing booms, leaving no role for stabilization that doesn't lead to permanent austerity. He also made an unfortunate comparison between personal liberty and the
total satisfaction of demands for economic justice, IOW a combat between absolutes, not a pragmatic balance, which is all that any economic arrangement can deliver.
Michael Cohen says that Trump is not joking about staying in the office for more than 2 terms.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/10/politics/michael-cohen-trump-cnntv/index.html
As a former conservative I used to have false impressions of what liberals were like. I eventually learned that many of these were inaccurate or false.
If I would provide a list of misconceptions that conservatives have about liberals then the conservative here would come up with a list of misconceptions they claim liberals have concerning conservatives, and there are a few.
The discussion then degenerates into a pissing contest on who can come up with a bigger list so why bother.
The bottom line is that conservatives currently control the White House, the Senate, the Supreme Courts, most of the Federal Judges, at least twenty-nine state governments and most police departments and unions. They have dominated American politics for twenty-five years. Yet they insist that they are not responsible for the current state of affairs.
Just like Trump, when things do not work out it is somebody else's fault.
Quote from: Todd on September 10, 2020, 07:57:06 AM
Scary.
Funny juggling act the Diner Cop's doing.
One the one hand he needs to support the story entire cities are being "destroyed" by BLM because his orange boss tells him so.
And on the other hand climate change, huge wildfires and a disappearing ice cap need to be denied, because the Dow needs to go up.
And of course he needs to tell people all the time he's dealing in Facts. Morally bankrupt.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 09:26:57 AM
Funny juggling act the Diner Cop's doing.
One the one hand he needs to support the story entire cities are being "destroyed" by BLM because his orange boss tells him so.
And on the other hand climate change, huge wildfires and a disappearing ice cap need to be denied, because the Dow needs to go up.
And of course he needs to tell people all the time he's dealing in Facts. Morally bankrupt.
We could cut taxes on the polar ice cap. Then again, maybe not. It might trickle down.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 09:26:57 AM
Funny juggling act the Diner Cop's doing.
One the one hand he needs to support the story entire cities are being "destroyed" by BLM because his orange boss tells him so.
And on the other hand climate change, huge wildfires and a disappearing ice cap need to be denied, because the Dow needs to go up.
And of course he needs to tell people all the time he's dealing in Facts. Morally bankrupt.
Funny.
Quote from: Todd on September 09, 2020, 12:45:53 PM
I know bullshit when I read it.
You do? Let me guess: Everything you don't agree with is bs? ;D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ehg8zsJWAAARkKU?format=jpg&name=small)
Whoa.....that looks unhealthy from a liberal perspective.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 10, 2020, 11:08:24 AMLet me guess: Everything you don't agree with is bs? ;D
Nope. But I can see why you would think that.
Russian, Chinese and Iranian hackers all targeting 2020 election, Microsoft says (https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/10/politics/microsoft-election-hacking-report/index.html)
Super-Creepy 46 will have a lot of bad guys to fight.
Maybe Microsoft can help.
Quote from: Herman on September 10, 2020, 12:06:04 AM
Well, the impression I have is that Trump uses federal funds (out of the Defense budget for instance) to build parts of the Wall (read: reward friends of his).
So that doesn't help the idea that using large amounts of Federal money for funny utopic projects is typically a "Left" thing - apart from the question if there is such a thing as "Left" in the USA.
What you're talking about has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2020, 06:30:05 AM
Yeah, right.
The Devil's greatest trick was to convince people he doesn't exist.
Have you ever read Antonio Gramsci? He was probably the most astute political theorist ever: ideas do have consequences, especially if espoused by a critical mass; if you win ideologically in the academia, the intelligentsia, the press and the popular culture, all the rest will follow in due time.
It's gaslighting. It's a sign that they cannot really defend it so they make believe it's not happening.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54107329
Suspension of a US professor sparks debate over a Chinese wordProfessor Greg Patton at the University of Southern California (USC) was telling students in a communications lecture last month about filler, or pause words, such as 'err', 'umm' or 'you know' in English.
Footage of his lecture, which has now gone viral, shows Prof Patton saying: "In China, the common pause word is 'that, that, that'. So in China, it might be na-ge, na-ge, na-ge."
Annunciated, na-ge sounds like the N-word, which led several of the professor's students to complain to the university. Responding to the complaint, the dean of the university, Geoffrey Garrett, told students that Prof Patton would no longer be teaching the course.
"It is simply unacceptable for the faculty to use words in class that can marginalize, hurt and harm the psychological safety of our students," he said.
News of the spat reached China, where many posted on social media saying they thought Prof Patton's punishment, conversely, was discrimination against speakers of the Chinese language.The left has become a parody. It's almost as if they're trying to match Tump's idiocy with a kind of inverse image.
"...words in class that can marginalize, hurt and harm the psychological safety of our students," he said." Can you imagine how fragile you have to be! Fear of words lead to an hysterical witch hunt!
Quote from: Todd on September 10, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
Russian, Chinese and Iranian hackers all targeting 2020 election, Microsoft says (https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/10/politics/microsoft-election-hacking-report/index.html)
Super-Creepy 46 will have a lot of bad guys to fight.
Maybe Microsoft can help.
Biden has got an explanation for his loss if that happens: Russian hackers. That's how the establishment can avoid admitting the real reason: Corporate political agenda that didn't raise excitement. Just like Hillary. She blamed everybody else than herself.
Now, Biden is still the favorite in this race, but you don't know what happens between now and Nov. 3rd.
Quote from: drogulus on September 10, 2020, 11:25:25 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ehg8zsJWAAARkKU?format=jpg&name=small)
Whoa.....that looks unhealthy from a liberal perspective.
Agreed.
I was reminded this morning when I turned on the radio, that today is the 19th anniversary of 9/11. Perhaps we could take some time from squabbling with one another to pause and reflect on that and to remember the victims, the heroes, and how our world has changed since then.
PD
Quote from: 71 dB on September 11, 2020, 04:09:29 AM
Biden has got an explanation for his loss if that happens: Russian hackers. That's how the establishment can avoid admitting the real reason: Corporate political agenda that didn't raise excitement. Just like Hillary. She blamed everybody else than herself.
Now, Biden is still the favorite in this race, but you don't know what happens between now and Nov. 3rd.
You offer keen insight.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 11, 2020, 04:23:49 AM
Agreed.
I was reminded this morning when I turned on the radio, that today is the 19th anniversary of 9/11. Perhaps we could take some time from squabbling with one another to pause and reflect on that and to remember the victims, the heroes, and how our world has changed since then.
PD
Yes. It was horrible. Let's remember those that perished. I wish for a more peaceful world for everyone.
The left is thinking about 2024 and one name is
Nina Turner. She might have a chance if she can "navigate" the racism in the country the way Obama did.
Quote from: Todd on September 11, 2020, 04:24:45 AM
You offer keen insight.
I try to offer what insight a non-American can have. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on September 11, 2020, 04:50:57 AM
I try to offer what insight a non-American can have. ;)
You missed the point.
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2020, 06:30:05 AM
The Devil's greatest trick was to convince people he doesn't exist.
That's what I've been saying... a successful virus doesn't let people know they are sick right away, because it needs the opportunity to spread.
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2020, 06:30:05 AM
Have you ever read Antonio Gramsci? He was probably the most astute political theorist ever: ideas do have consequences, especially if espoused by a critical mass; if you win ideologically in the academia, the intelligentsia, the press and the popular culture, all the rest will follow in due time.
This is the progression of ideas.
(gonna throw in my neurotyping obsession, sorry) :P
People like me are the origin of ideas- I belong to the top right (Newtype, but close to Fascinator). Ideas progress diagonally from there to the bottom left.
(top = lateral thinking, bottom = linear thinking, left = lexical thinking, right = abstract thinking)
(https://preview.redd.it/e5gc12tv8xd51.jpg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1aeba7c7cef8b69d5c2b49bacccff5a179d7c2dd)
People on the top left study these ideas, people on the bottom right interpret/opinionate on these ideas (or "mascot" them), and people on the bottom left eventually adapt these ideas as rules.
It's like making a building... top right is the origin of some wacky design, top left is the blueprint, bottom right is the "appropriateness" of it existing in the city, bottom left are the people following the directions to make the building.
The same progression can be see in intellectuals spouting out their wild ideas and the eventual effect it has on social rules for a culture.
Also, I think people who write about such things as philosophy/ethics are fundamentally unbalanced if that's what they spend most of their time on.
The problem is thrusting those ideas on the world like a huge **** without having to take it themselves.
That's why something like music can potentially bring about better balance. If you write music, perform it, record it, etc. then you are going from the top right to the bottom left, completely on your own. You aren't handing the responsibilities off on someone else, letting them test out to see if your ideas work, staying solely in your top right comfort zone. So yeah, speaking from experience.
What I think, about these people who want to create a utopia is, run a game simulator of that utopia and then put yourself as a virtual character in it. Have fun when your virtual character starves to death. ::)
Quote from: greg on September 11, 2020, 08:23:11 AMAlso, I think people who write about such things as philosophy/ethics are fundamentally unbalanced if that's what they spend most of their time on.
Don't be so hard on intellectual types who expend much mental energy on such deep thoughts. Admiring one's navel is a genteel pastime with a long, glorious, and celebrated tradition.
(https://putthecrippledkidupfront.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/img_4222.jpg)
Quote from: Todd on September 11, 2020, 08:44:01 AM
Don't be so hard on intellectual types who expend much mental energy on such deep thoughts. Admiring one's navel is a genteel pastime with a long, glorious, and celebrated tradition.
(https://putthecrippledkidupfront.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/img_4222.jpg)
Looks like them when they dare go outside and play do anything physical for 5 minutes. This is why gym class should remain mandatory in school... almost makes me think it should be mandatory in college, but I'll let that go...
But also time to shit on revolutionaries. So, revolutionaries are basically the computer programmers who have written all the source code that the intellectuals tell them to write, and have never compiled, let alone tested it, but keep on writing and writing and writing, but when they finally hit compile they are shocked that there is a compile or runtime error. Then they blame the people who made the coding language instead of debugging it themselves to show that they are indeed the ones who made the logical errors. >:D
Quote from: 71 dB on September 11, 2020, 04:50:57 AM
The left is thinking about 2024 and one name is Nina Turner. She might have a chance if she can "navigate" the racism in the country the way Obama did.
I try to offer what insight a non-American can have. ;)
QuoteNina Hudson Turner is an American politician and professor from Ohio. A member of the Democratic Party, she was a Cleveland City Councillor from 2006 to 2008 and an Ohio State Senator from 2008 until 2014.
Fresh from Comedy News Network: Is Donald Trump starting to make an electoral comeback? (https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/11/politics/donald-trump-joe-biden-electoral-college/index.html)
(https://i0.wp.com/cdn-prod.medicalnewstoday.com/content/images/articles/325/325111/anxious-or-nervous-person-chewing-or-biting-skin-and-nails.jpg?w=1155&h=1541)
Quote from: greg on September 11, 2020, 08:23:11 AM
What I think, about these people who want to create a utopia is, run a game simulator of that utopia and then put yourself as a virtual character in it. Have fun when your virtual character starves to death. ::)
I am reminded of a widely circulating joke in the 1980s Socialist Republic of Romania.
Q: Who invented Communism, philosophers or scientists?
A: Philosophers.
Q: How do you know?
A: Well, had Communism been invented by scientists, it would have been tested on rats first.
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 10:29:54 AM
I am reminded of a widely circulating joke in the 1980s Socialist Republic of Romania.
Q: Who invented Communism, philosophers or scientists?
A: Philosophers.
Q: How do you know?
A: Well, had Communism been invented by scientists, it would have been tested on rats first.
Nice!
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 11:06:11 AM
Ain't it? :)
Maybe that should be the approach to Medicare-for-all....
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2020, 11:09:41 AM
Maybe that should be the approach to Medicare-for-all....
Perhaps we should ask Poju, a scientist of sort.
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 10:29:54 AM
I am reminded of a widely circulating joke in the 1980s Socialist Republic of Romania.
Q: Who invented Communism, philosophers or scientists?
A: Philosophers.
Q: How do you know?
A: Well, had Communism been invented by scientists, it would have been tested on rats first.
;D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2020, 11:09:41 AM
Maybe that should be the approach to Medicare-for-all....
True. With any big change or plan, it's always a good idea to make small workable tests and then expand from there- it applies to anything.
This is precisely why Agile methodology in the IT field has overtaken the waterfall methodology.
Quote from: greg on September 11, 2020, 08:08:27 AM
The same progression can be see in intellectuals spouting out their wild ideas and the eventual effect it has on social rules for a culture.
One of the best uses of philosophical tools is to defend against the ideas of philosophers.
Was the for profit healthcare ever "tested"?
Quote from: greg on September 11, 2020, 11:16:38 AMThis is precisely why Agile methodology in the IT field has overtaken the waterfall methodology.
Neither approach delivers what their proponents claim.
A fine state of affairs, when your response to sexual misconduct is driven by whom you voted for:
Trump's Desperate DOJ Dodge on Defamation (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-desperate-doj-dodge-on-defamation/)
Quote from: Todd on September 11, 2020, 12:03:37 PM
Neither approach delivers what their proponents claim.
Seems that they would come closer than using the opposite approach though, right? Failure of delivering often isn't related to the system itself but just setting goals too high.
Quote from: drogulus on September 11, 2020, 11:28:26 AM
One of the best uses of philosophical tools is to defend against the ideas of philosophers.
Philosophical tools being of course nothing else than ideas of philosophers. ;D
What is your profession, if I may ask?
Quote from: greg on September 11, 2020, 12:25:14 PMFailure of delivering often isn't related to the system itself but just setting goals too high.
Not in my experience.
Quote from: Todd on September 11, 2020, 12:41:28 PM
Not in my experience.
Are there any methodologies you'd say that do well what they say they do?
Quote from: greg on September 11, 2020, 12:44:05 PM
Are there any methodologies you'd say that do well what they say they do?
As an end user, I can say no, not even close. Methodology is a replacement for competence, as the old chestnut goes.
The best dev work I have experienced in my career was when the guy who literally built the system the company used maintained it. He could make any change or enhancement with minimal effort and light or non-existent specs. Literally, I could tell him I need "X", and he would program it without so much as a formal meeting. It was close to cowboy coding, and it was risky because he was the only guy who knew how to do it - until the company found a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and found another guy 90% as good to back him up. I still remember when a new dev director showed up at one employer, touting Agile. It was great. It was revolutionary. Etc. It resulted in endless spec meetings and perpetually delayed deadlines. It has been like that ever since. It has been like that at small, medium, and gargantuan brand name companies. Gargantuan brand name companies are actually the worst.
Quote from: Todd on September 11, 2020, 01:06:25 PM
As an end user, I can say no, not even close. Methodology is a replacement for competence, as the old chestnut goes.
The best dev work I have experienced in my career was when the guy who literally built the system the company used maintained it. He could make any change or enhancement with minimal effort and light or non-existent specs. Literally, I could tell him I need "X", and he would program it without so much as a formal meeting. It was close to cowboy coding, and it was risky because he was the only guy who knew how to do it - until the company found a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and found another guy 90% as good to back him up. I still remember when a new dev director showed up at one employer, touting Agile. It was great. It was revolutionary. Etc. It resulted in endless spec meetings and perpetually delayed deadlines. It has been like that ever since. It has been like that at small, medium, and gargantuan brand name companies. Gargantuan brand name companies are actually the worst.
I love everything about this and am trying not to die from laughter. ;D
Seriously, this is exactly why it's hard to adapt a tribalistic groupthink mentality. Obviously, an individual can't possibly do everything when things scale up, but still, corporate bullshit is corporate bullshit.
Individualistic geniuses like what that guy sounds like are the most misunderstood and underappreciated demographic on the face of the earth IMO. Yet often they can do more to benefit society than mass groups of people can.
Quote from: greg on September 11, 2020, 01:49:30 PMIndividualistic geniuses like what that guy sounds like are the most misunderstood and underappreciated demographic on the face of the earth IMO.
I assure you, he was not underappreciated at the company, from end users to top management. When the company got a new CIO, she was initially convinced he was overrated and couldn't do his job properly. There was one task that he said would take about a week to complete, which she scoffed at. After she reviewed what he needed to do, she realized that no one else would be able to do so in two or three months, and she stated so publicly. Ultimately, he was a business risk - both he and the backup were near retirement age - so when the company was sold, the new parent company decided to switch to an entirely new core platform, which meant that the so-called secret sauce that made the company profitable in its sector would no longer work, which meant that the gargantuan brand name parent company moved the company into an entirely new, zero profit margin space with entirely new clients. The company is gone now.
Its a pity you refuse to post that articulately about politics.
meanwhile:
Michael Brown: If Trump Is Dangerously Unhinged, You Must Vote Republican (https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/michael-brown-if-trump-is-dangerously-unhinged-you-must-vote-republican/)
"In his latest column, Religious Right activist, radio host, and columnist Michael Brown argues that if the various reports that President Trump is dangerously erratic, reckless, and uniformed are true, that is all the more reason for conservative Christians to vote Republican in the upcoming midterm elections.
As Brown sees it, if the reports contained in Bob Woodward's new book and the recent anonymous New York Times op-ed that Trump is growing increasingly unpredictable and unhinged are true, then it is more important than ever for Christian voters to ignore "the drama" and vote to send more Republicans to Washington, D.C., so that Trump will be surrounded by "good men and women, people of principle and character and conviction who share his values, [who] can help forestall a feared collapse."
Despite the fact that Republicans have done literally nothing to rein in, rebuke, or restrain Trump in any way during his first two years in office, Brown thinks it is vital to send more of them to Congress so that they can continue to enact the Religious Right's agenda while hopefully preventing Trump from having a complete and total meltdown"[...]
I was actually led there by this:
Michael Brown Says BLM Calling Out Names of the Dead Is 'Witchcraft' (https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/michael-brown-says-blm-calling-out-names-of-the-dead-is-witchcraft/)
[...]"McCoy and Brown discussed a range of issues, from End Times theology to the church's role in the political arena. Brown portrayed himself as a supporter of civil rights while criticizing the BLM movement for being founded by "radical feminists." He said that when BLM movement leaders speak aloud the names of people killed by police violence, they are "calling on spirits of the dead."
"When you say the name, you're also calling on the person to come forth, for those spirits to come forth and empower the movement," Brown said. "So, it's basically witchcraft." He continued:
And you think this whole thing is very Jezebelic in that regard, in terms of joining together radical feminism, attack on gender, attack on family structure, emasculating men, and then you bring in the appeal to the spirits of the dead. So, I have been warning people for months: Separate from the movement. It is anarchist. It is anti-Christ. Show your solidarity with Black friends in different ways. Where you see injustice, confront it, but separate from the movement."[...]
Evangelical whackadoodle.
Trump is bad for America and bad for the Jews (https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/american-jewrys-fateful-choice/)
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 12:30:01 PM
Philosophical tools being of course nothing else than ideas of philosophers. ;D
Of course, but the tools belong to anyone who uses them, like for example Wittgenstein, who used the tools to undermine the kind of ideas one ought to defend against, that a philosopher could rewrite the rules or overturn the results of empirical inquiry. Early Wittgenstein was thought to be close to the logical positivists, but I think he's closer to the pragmatists, like when he says words get their meaning in use. I think that's not a superficial resemblance. It's close to my "what things are is what they do".
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 12:30:01 PM
What is your profession, if I may ask?
I haven't decided yet, though I'm looking very strongly at becoming a shepherd. In the meantime I'm retired from a life pf menial jobs.
Quote from: drogulus on September 11, 2020, 07:38:37 PM
"what things are is what they do".
A newspaper article can convey information in an objective way and offer informed, intellectually honest opinions or can grossly distort the facts and contain biased propaganda. What is a newspaper article again?
QuoteI'm retired from a life pf menial jobs.
Then I guess not a professional philosopher or economist.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2020, 03:41:24 PM
Trump is bad for America and bad for the Jews (https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/american-jewrys-fateful-choice/)
Trump is good for Trump himself, Trump brownnosers and some dictators over the World. That's it I believe. Maybe Nancy Pelosi also*. He is bad for
everyone else.
* Nancy Pelosi can fearmonger about Trump and collect donations from those rich people who hate/fear Trump.
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 12:30:01 PM
Philosophical tools being of course nothing else than ideas of philosophers. ;D
Philosophy is actually very exact science.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 12, 2020, 05:00:56 AM
Philosophy is actually very exact science.
(https://emojis.wiki/emoji-pics/apple/thinking-face-apple.png)
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 11:09:48 PM
A newspaper article can convey information in an objective way and offer informed, intellectually honest opinions or can grossly distort the facts and contain biased propaganda. What is a newspaper article again?
A more inclusive description would be helpful in forming a suitable generality, though since common terms point to common items in experience no question arises for philosophers to ponder.
Quote from: Florestan on September 11, 2020, 11:09:48 PM
Then I guess not a professional philosopher or economist.
It's too late to guess.
Quote from: Dowder on September 12, 2020, 10:28:26 PM
LOL!
The biggest Zionist President we've ever had and he's insinuating Trump as Hitler.
LOL!
He's not saying that at all.
It's not a long article, just put your finger to the words and you can read it.
Quote from: drogulus on September 12, 2020, 06:29:10 AM
A more inclusive description would be helpful in forming a suitable generality, though since common terms point to common items in experience no question arises for philosophers to ponder.
I wonder if anyone can make head or tail of this.
Compared to some of our dear Drogulos' posts, T.W. Adorno's Aesthetic Theory appears as easy a read as Humpty Dumpty. :)
Something interesting happened to me. After I got the Ju-On movies on Blu-ray and watched them I lost interest in US politics. I also feel like a burden had been lifted. Suddenly I am not interested of listening to Kyle Kulinski or TYT. The lack of Ju-On movies on Blu-ray has apparently "eaten" me much much more than I realized. Now that I have them the World looks so much more "fair" place. Americans don't have money for food or healthcare? So what? At least two iconic J-horror movies are on Blu-ray WITH Finnish subtitles! Yes!
Just looking at a host of articles on Woodward's book I can't help but come to the conclusion that tump winning a second term would represent a colossal act of masochism on the part of the American people. Yes, you can argue that this was true from the get-go for a lot of reasons. But could there be a more perfectly wrong person for that job at that time? This was a confluence of doom and it shows why there are other things that matter besides which policies you support. Do the people that surround him really think otherwise? They know. I wonder what percentage of the people that work with potus secretly hope he loses.
Quote from: Florestan on September 13, 2020, 12:05:52 AM
I wonder if anyone can make head or tail of this.
Of course not.
Quote from: Florestan on September 13, 2020, 12:05:52 AM
I wonder if anyone can make head or tail of this.
You could look up "meaning in use" in any essay on Wittgenstein. I use the Stanford Encyclopedia, which is quite thorough. I simplify (greatly) by saying what things do, or what you do with them, is what they are.
Quote from: ritter on September 13, 2020, 01:10:37 AM
Compared to some of our dear Drogulos' posts, T.W. Adorno's Aesthetic Theory appears as easy a read as Humpty Dumpty. :)
Adorno and the Hot Dog School haven't aged well. My take, should I choose the assignment, is that instead of trying to express something difficult they are choosing difficult expression, in the hope that no one will notice.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
The Coming Tech Cold War With China (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/north-america/2020-09-09/coming-tech-cold-war-china?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=twofa&utm_campaign=The%20Coming%20Tech%20Cold%20War%20With%20China&utm_content=20200911&utm_term=FA%20This%20Week%20-%20112017)
Just sticking with the opening paragraph:
Quote from: Adam SegalThree and a half years into its first term, the administration of U.S. President Donald Trump has finally assembled a comprehensive strategy for technological competition with China. From cutting chains that supply Chinese tech giants to barring transactions with them to regulating the undersea cables on which telecommunications depend, the Trump administration's measures have often been incomplete, improvisational, and even detrimental to some of the great strengths of the American innovation system. They have, however, set the outlines of U.S. technology policy toward China for the near future. That policy rests on restricting the flow of technology to China, restructuring global supply chains, and investing in emerging technologies at home. Even a new U.S. administration is unlikely to stray from these fundamentals.
How can this be? Orange Man bad. Orange Man stupid.
What say the intellectuals of GMG? What is the future of US tech policy and foreign policy more broadly with respect to China? I desperately need the fact based analysis available only here. And how will Uncle Joe make it all better, as only the anointed, elderly White Savior can do?
Quote from: Todd on September 13, 2020, 07:06:13 AM
The Coming Tech Cold War With China (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/north-america/2020-09-09/coming-tech-cold-war-china?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=twofa&utm_campaign=The%20Coming%20Tech%20Cold%20War%20With%20China&utm_content=20200911&utm_term=FA%20This%20Week%20-%20112017)
Just sticking with the opening paragraph:
How can this be? Orange Man bad. Orange Man stupid.
What say the intellectuals of GMG? What is the future of US tech policy and foreign policy more broadly with respect to China? I desperately need the fact based analysis available only here. And how will Uncle Joe make it all better, as only the anointed, elderly White Savior can do?
What's wrong with the article? The paragraph you quoted seems quite sensible to me.
The effort to reduce tech dependency seems to be helping drive China's larger economic agenda. The Chinese state news media has lately promoted Chinese President Xi Jinping's new strain of economic thought, called "dual circulation theory." Although its specifics remain vague, the theory appears to prioritize domestic consumption, markets, and companies in an effort to boost China's technological self-sufficiency after decades of export-led growth. According to The Wall Street Journal, Chinese Vice Premier Liu He has been working to identify companies and industries at risk from U.S. sanctions. Those believed to be especially vulnerable could get more government financing for research and development. I have expressed the view that selling goods to the largest market will never make you the largest market. Internal development gives them a shot. China knows this and the example of Japan has taught them.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 03:01:11 AM
Something interesting happened to me. [...] I lost interest in US politics. I also feel like a burden had been lifted.
What a blessing, congrats! ;D
Q
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 03:01:11 AM
Something interesting happened to me. After I got the Ju-On movies on Blu-ray and watched them I lost interest in US politics. I also feel like a burden had been lifted. Suddenly I am not interested of listening to Kyle Kulinski or TYT. The lack of Ju-On movies on Blu-ray has apparently "eaten" me much much more than I realized. Now that I have them the World looks so much more "fair" place. Americans don't have money for food or healthcare? So what? At least two iconic J-horror movies are on Blu-ray WITH Finnish subtitles! Yes!
Don't you care about humanity?
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: Que on September 13, 2020, 08:44:13 AM
What a blessing, congrats! ;D
Q
Thanks! I suppose, but I don't know for how long the effect lasts... Two weeks? Two months? Two years? Forever?
Quote from: drogulus on September 13, 2020, 08:49:09 AM
Don't you care about humanity? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
In some ways, I suppose I do. Let's just say that I hope for Biden* to win this time around and then
Nina Turner in 2024, but I lost my appetite to listen to every TYT video about police officers fabricating evidence to oppress some random black people in a random State. I have been writing about the importance of medicare for all and other social democratic ideas in the US for over 3 years now. I wish it had made a difference, but I'm afraid it has been total waste of time. So, excuse me if I concentrate on enjoying J-horror instead. >:D
* According to a recent gallup 75 % of Finns want Biden to win, 10 % Trump to win, 3 % someone else to win (as if that was possible!) and 12 % expressed no opinion on the matter.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 09:19:32 AM
So, excuse me if I concentrate on enjoying J-horror instead. >:D
Luulen, että olet itsekäs. Ihmiskunta tarvitsee sinua!
Quote from: drogulus on September 13, 2020, 09:50:03 AM
Luulen, että olet itsekäs. Ihmiskunta tarvitsee sinua!
That's impressive! Perfect Finnish! 0:) Anyway, I need a totally new plan how to make Todd a supporter of social democracy! ???
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 09:55:18 AM
That's impressive! Perfect Finnish! 0:) Anyway, I need a totally new plan how to make Todd a supporter of social democracy! ???
I don't think trying to change anyone's mind on anything here is a realistic goal. Unless it's like one small fact, then maybe it's possible sometimes... but nobody is going to change anyone else's major opinions about anything.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 09:55:18 AM
That's impressive! Perfect Finnish! 0:) Anyway, I need a totally new plan how to make Todd a supporter of social democracy! ???
Sinun ei pitäisi vaivautua, koska hän on arvokas siellä missä hän on.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)Quote from: greg on September 13, 2020, 10:36:16 AM
I don't think trying to change anyone's mind on anything here is a realistic goal. Unless it's like one small fact, then maybe it's possible sometimes... but nobody is going to change anyone else's major opinions about anything.
It might help you to decide which opinion you have should be major.
Quote from: greg on September 13, 2020, 10:36:16 AM
I don't think trying to change anyone's mind on anything here is a realistic goal. Unless it's like one small fact, then maybe it's possible sometimes... but nobody is going to change anyone else's major opinions about anything.
Every now and then there is a case of someone who has been going down the MAGA rabbid hole, but saw a video of Kyle Kulinski and got hooked and eventually were transformed into a lefty! That doesn't happen often and it takes a talent such as Kyle Kulinski, but it's not impossible.
I believe people change their own minds. Other people can just help on it, give the initial spark and reason to do so.
Quote from: drogulus on September 13, 2020, 11:01:09 AM
Sinun ei pitäisi vaivautua, koska hän on arvokas siellä missä hän on. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
Drogulus realized Google translate can translate English to Finnish pretty damn well.
Anyway, if I watch J-horror I am selfish, but I shouldn't try and convert Todd either! :P
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 11:05:03 AM
Every now and then there is a case of someone who has been going down the MAGA rabbid hole, but saw a video of Kyle Kulinski and got hooked and eventually were transformed into a lefty!
I think you mean "rabid", the one with big ears that bites people.
) For all of Trump's Confederate flag-waving, race-baiting and efforts to play on White grievance, the public remains supportive of Black Lives Matters, recognizes the existence of systemic racism and supports Black athletes' efforts to raise awareness of racial injustice. A recent Pew Research poll finds, "Overall, 44% of Americans now say that it is a lot more difficult to be a Black person in the U.S. than it is to be a White person, while 32% say it is a little more difficult and 23% say it is no more difficult. The share saying it is a lot more difficult to be Black than White is now 9 percentage points higher than it was in the summer of 2016." (The increase, however, is almost entirely among Democrats, a sign that Trump's racism and violent reaction to protesters has, if nothing else, prompted White Democrats to take a good look at racial injustice.) (
My emphasis. No change for dowder or greg.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2020, 12:11:21 PM
the public remains supportive of Black Lives Matters
Not by much. 49% support and 38% oppose.
Over the last two months, support has remained nearly the same, but the 10% undecided have joined the opposition in the last two months.
https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=true&uncertainty=true&zoomIn=true
Regardless...
Republicans:
Rich people = good
Lower middle class and poor people = bad
Democrats:
Men/white people/straight people = bad
All else (especially black people) = good
So yeah, both parties can shove my middle finger up their ass.
Quote from: greg on September 13, 2020, 12:40:09 PMSo yeah, both parties can shove my middle finger up their ass.
I'm pretty sure that's more of a Democrat thing.
Quote from: Todd on September 13, 2020, 12:56:53 PM
I'm pretty sure that's more of a Democrat thing.
Totally ;D
You ever hear about the guy who made this giant middle finger for the whole town? I love it!
(https://sm.mashable.com/mashable_sea/photo/default/giant-middle-finger_hnsf.jpg)
So the guy that works with me is from Nepal, and he's the one who showed me that story. Sometimes we end up talking about Mount Everest. That's probably why I got the idea, well hey, ya know, I'd like to one up that and flick off the whole world I'd like to put one of those on the top of Mount Everest. Since it is the highest part of the world, I'd get to flick off the whole world! :D
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 11:05:03 AM
Every now and then there is a case of someone who has been going down the MAGA rabbid hole, but saw a video of Kyle Kulinski and got hooked and eventually were transformed into a lefty! That doesn't happen often and it takes a talent such as Kyle Kulinski, but it's not impossible.
I believe people change their own minds. Other people can just help on it, give the initial spark and reason to do so.
I've never paid much attention to Kulinski. From what I've heard about him, he's a purity politics wanker, a type i absolutely loathe.
"Orange Man bad."
From the subtle intelligence which brought you "Right. Russia."
Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2020, 01:08:25 PM
I've never paid much attention to Kulinski. From what I've heard about him, he's a purity politics wanker, a type i absolutely loathe.
I say he is far from a "purity politics wanker", but ironically you try to apply the purity politics method on HIM here. Hopefully you don't loathe yourself for that... ;)
Quote from: greg on September 13, 2020, 12:40:09 PM
Democrats:
Men/white people/straight people = bad
When have they said that? Sure, some men/white people/straight people ARE bad, but never have they said ALL are.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 03:35:01 PM
I say he is far from a "purity politics wanker", but ironically you try to apply the purity politics method on HIM here. Hopefully you don't loathe yourself for that... ;)
https://twitter.com/kylekulinski/status/1249842584652054530?lang=en
"As a left-winger who will not vote for Biden I want you to know I'm 100% okay with you blaming me if Trump wins a second term. I mean it. Blame me. Then get to thinking real hard how you're gonna get me to support your candidate the next time! Maybe even ask me, I'll tell you!"
Now that's purity politics wanking.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 03:37:15 PM
When have they said that? Sure, some men/white people/straight people ARE bad, but never have they said ALL are.
Not going to elaborate in order to prevent a shitstorm...
19 families buy nearly 97 acres of land in Georgia to create a city safe for Black people
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/12/us/freedom-black-cooperative-toomsboro/index.html
CNN likes this.
So I guess segregation and colonizing Native American land is fine now, if it's from a left-leaning perspective. I wonder how they will handle non-black immigrants wanting to move here?
Every extreme is on the same team. ::)
via the New Books In History podcast:
a 45 minute interview with author Julian Zelizer about his "Burning Down the House: Newt Gingrich, the Fall of a Speaker, and the Rise of the New Republican Party":
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/new-books-network/new-books-in-history/e/77255081
Quote from: 71 dB on September 13, 2020, 03:37:15 PM
When have they said that? Sure, some men/white people/straight people ARE bad, but never have they said ALL are.
It's a silly claim. Most Democrats are straight white people.
And while a majority of the country is still white, the Democrats have won the popular vote in most federal elections for the last 30 years. A Republican won the popular vote for President in only 1 of the last 7 Presidential election cycles. Democrats also get the most votes in aggregate in the House and Senate.
Saying Democrats hate straight, white men is just that old phenomenon of 'When You're Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression'. And really it's only
discussion of equality, we haven't reached that promised land yet.
Quote from: greg on September 13, 2020, 04:30:16 PM
19 families buy nearly 97 acres of land in Georgia to create a city safe for Black people
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/12/us/freedom-black-cooperative-toomsboro/index.html
CNN likes this.
So I guess segregation and colonizing Native American land is fine now, if it's from a left-leaning perspective. I wonder how they will handle non-black immigrants wanting to move here?
Every extreme is on the same team. ::)
You mean move onto the land they own? I guess they can't win. You don't want them here if they think their lives should matter, and you hate they can set up shop on their own. How about they go back to Africa, then?
Quote from: drogulus on September 13, 2020, 07:23:00 PM
You mean move onto the land they own? I guess they can't win. You don't want them here if they think their lives should matter, and you hate they can set up shop on their own. How about they go back to Africa, then?
I don't know how to respond to that because that has nothing to do with my points...
Quote from: greg on September 13, 2020, 12:40:09 PM
Democrats:
Men/white people/straight people = bad
All else (especially black people) = good
Another example of accusing Democrats of something most of them are not.
Quote from: drogulus on September 13, 2020, 06:20:18 AM
You could look up "meaning in use" in any essay on Wittgenstein. I use the Stanford Encyclopedia, which is quite thorough. I simplify (greatly) by saying what things do, or what you do with them, is what they are.
Adorno and the Hot Dog School haven't aged well. My take, should I choose the assignment, is that instead of trying to express something difficult they are choosing difficult expression, in the hope that no one will notice. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Got it now: you have a PhD in Philosophy and Economy from the Google-It University. Man, what an impressive intellectual achievement! Congratulations.
Quote from: Florestan on September 13, 2020, 10:59:23 PM
Got it now: you have a PhD in Philosophy and Economy from the Google-It University. Man, what an impressive intellectual achievement! Congratulations.
That makes two (2) Diner Cops.
Full Disclosure: I do not have a Mathematics degree.
Quote from: Herman on September 14, 2020, 12:10:21 AM
That makes two (2) Diner Cops.
For centuries, even millennia, some of the best and brightest minds have devoted a whole lifetime of scholarly study and deep thought to the problems of philosophy and economy, without reaching any definitive conclusions or even a minimal general consensus. Come drogulus who, after reading some entries in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and watching some YT lectures, settles the matter once and for all in favor of Wittgenstein and MMT. Does it really make any sense to you?
Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
https://twitter.com/kylekulinski/status/1249842584652054530?lang=en
"As a left-winger who will not vote for Biden I want you to know I'm 100% okay with you blaming me if Trump wins a second term. I mean it. Blame me. Then get to thinking real hard how you're gonna get me to support your candidate the next time! Maybe even ask me, I'll tell you!"
Now that's purity politics wanking.
That tweet is from April, long before George Floyd and Trump's faschist actions. I believe Kulinski has changes his mind and is "considering" voting for Biden in order to save the democracy that is left in the country. Even without this context you need to think what he means. It's about the Democrats thinking they can offer a crappy candidate (as long as Trump is worse) and expect the left to vote for them. IF the left always supports the Dems no matter what, the left will NEVER EVER get anything. There will NEVER be any lefty policies, just corporate oligarchic status quo forever, no matter if the leadership is Republican or Democratic. Kulinski keeps it real here. Yes, if Biden doesn't win those on the left who did not vote for him are to blame, BUT the Dems can only blame themselves for offering NOTHING to the left to get their vote. Biden could say for example he will take marijuana away of the list and get more lefty votes. BUT Biden isn't doing even that!!! Crazy. Sometimes the left is driven to the corner and purity politics wanking is all there is left. IT IS NOT KULINSKI'S FAULT.
Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2020, 04:47:46 PM
Saying Democrats hate straight, white men is just that old phenomenon of 'When You're Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression'.
Yes.
Quote from: Florestan on September 13, 2020, 10:59:23 PMGot it now: you have a PhD in Philosophy and Economy from the Google-It University. Man, what an impressive intellectual achievement! Congratulations.
The educational achievement and professional experience on this board daunts.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 01:47:23 AM
For centuries, even millennia, some of the best and brightest minds have devoted a whole lifetime of scholarly study and deep thought to the problems of philosophy and economy, without reaching any definitive conclusions or even a minimal general consensus. Come drogulus who, after reading some entries in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and watching some YT lectures, settles the matter once and for all in favor of Wittgenstein and MMT. Does it really make any sense to you?
And what about yourself? How many centuries have you thought about "the problems of philosophy and economy"? TBH you have never struck me as a particularly rigorous thinker. But perhaps I haven't paid sufficient attention.
Neither have I made a deep study of Drogulus' posts, but to me he seems a perfectly nice guy, and to me it looks incredibly bad form to one-sidedly ask people for their academic qualifications in a place like this. I believe the philosophical term is bullying.
Quote from: Herman on September 14, 2020, 05:12:26 AMTBH you have never struck me as a particularly rigorous thinker. But perhaps I haven't paid sufficient attention.
Careful, Florestan, Herman is turning that daunting education in classics he has on you now.
Quote from: Herman on September 14, 2020, 05:12:26 AM
And what about yourself? How many centuries have you thought about "the problems of philosophy and economy"?
I dabbled in some philosophy, especially in my misspent youth. But you won't see me pontificating about how philosopher X got it right or how wrong was philosopher Y, particularly if I haven't read one single original work of his and all I know about their ideas is from secondary sources, mostly internet essays.
QuoteTBH you have never struck me as a particularly rigorous thinker.
I don't remember ever claiming to be one.
QuoteNeither have I made a deep study of Drogulus' posts, but to me he seems a perfectly nice guy, and to me it looks incredibly bad form to one-sidedly ask people for their academic qualifications in a place like this. I believe the philosophical term is bullying.
Yeah, right, it's incredibly bad form to ask people whether or not their academic or otherwise qualifications allow them to pontificate on pretty much everyting, from economics to law going through philosophy to acoustics and history. I'm pretty sure that in the real world you wouldn't trust a book on economics written by an electrical engineer, or a handbook of statistical thermodynamics published by a philosopher, nor would you go for dental treatment to a chemist --- in all those matters you would certainly rely on experts. Yet here on GMG everyone is expert on everything, everyone knows everything, everyone has an opinion an everything, regardless whether one has studied the matter thoroughly or just read some essays on it, and you seem to be perfectly okay with that. Well, I'm not.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 05:38:51 AMYet here on GMG everyone is expert on everything
The funniest bit is that some esteemed posters on this very board have (repeatedly) lambasted Orange Man and other politicians for not listening to experts.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 01:47:23 AM
For centuries, even millennia, some of the best and brightest minds have devoted a whole lifetime of scholarly study and deep thought to the problems of philosophy and economy, without reaching any definitive conclusions or even a minimal general consensus. Come drogulus who, after reading some entries in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and watching some YT lectures, settles the matter once and for all in favor of Wittgenstein and MMT. Does it really make any sense to you?
I believe there's quite a lot of philosophical conclusions with consensus, but that doesn't mean living according to those principles is easy. We humans suck at living a good life. Very few of us can do it. That's why we are so miserable all the time. :(
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 05:51:14 AMThat's why we are so miserable all the time.
That looks like projection. A real psychologist or psychiatrist would be better able to assess your claim.
Quote from: Todd on September 14, 2020, 05:49:12 AM
The funniest bit is that some esteemed posters on this very board have (repeatedly) lambasted Orange Man and other politicians for not listening to experts.
Indeed. :D
https://quillette.com/2020/09/08/police-violence-and-the-rush-to-judgment/
Police Violence and the Rush to Judgment
... They may not have heard the name of David Dorn either, a 77-year-old African American retired police captain fatally shot by a looter during the Floyd protests in St. Louis. In the same city, Officer Tamarris L. Bohannon (who was also black) was shot in the head and killed last Sunday in the line of duty after tracking a shooting suspect. On August 30th, the same day Bohannon died, two officers in Chicago were shot during a traffic stop. Police Superintendent David Brown said the officers spotted a gun in the vehicle and broke the windows when the suspect refused to comply with their commands. According to the police statement, "While attempting to place the individual into custody, a struggle ensued, and the offender fired multiple shots, striking both officers." Mayor Lori Lightfoot pointed out that this incident challenges the notion that "defunding" the police department is a particularly smart idea. This tragedy followed an August 5th shooting in which another Chicago PD officer was shot and injured while responding to a domestic dispute. Statistically, an American cop is shot nearly every day in the line of duty, and officers often have to make critical, split-second decisions when their own lives—or the lives of others—are imperiled...
...Outrage does not bring about justice; it does precisely the opposite...Kenosha is a small city of around 100,000 people, and in the wake of "protests" that CNN notoriously described as "fiery but mostly peaceful," millions of dollars' worth of damage has been done to public property, and tens of millions in damage has been inflicted upon private property. Car Source, a dealership owned by an Indian immigrant, was attacked by a mob. Car windows were smashed and vehicles were set alight. Over $2.5 million of damage was done, and the insurance company might not cover these losses, since it may decide that the destruction was "domestic terrorism." In a heartbreaking interview, the owner stated "I'm a minority too. I'm a brown person. I have nothing to do with this." He added: "This is not the America I came into." The city's large-scale damage will have long-term ramifications. Kenosha Mayor John Antaramian said the city will request $30 million in aid from the state to help rebuild. Other cities such as Chicago, have lost an estimated $60 million to physical damage in the downtown area, contributing to the crime-plagued city's historic $1.2 billion budget shortfall, which will undoubtedly lead to funding cuts that only exacerbate racial inequality.
Quote from: milk on September 14, 2020, 05:56:22 AM
"protests" that CNN notoriously described as "fiery but mostly peaceful,"
There's also this other famous description:
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:31:26 AM
a city with a number of blocks one better avoid.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 05:38:51 AM
Yet here on GMG everyone is expert on everything, everyone knows everything, everyone has an opinion an everything, regardless whether one has studied the matter thoroughly or just read some essays on it, and you seem to be perfectly okay with that. Well, I'm not.
I claim expertise only on some narrow fields of stuff that I have studied a lot or done a lot. I believe everyone of us is an expert of being yourself meaning we are experts on things that have a major role in our lives. I do NOT claim expertise on US politics for example. People in US are generally so badly misled politically by the corporate media* that my level of
decent knowledge appears expert level in comparison.
* It's not only the smears, lies and omissions. It's not only what you know or don't know It's about how watching corporate propaganda every day makes people think. Corporate media has fearmongered for example about single payer healthcare for decades to serve the healthcare insurance companies and Big Pharma. No wonder about 1/3 of the country is against medicare for all even when many of these people are underinsured, without insurance, denied care, struggling to pay medical bills or in danger of medical bankruptcy.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 06:14:35 AM
I believe everyone of us is an expert of being yourself meaning we are experts on things that have a major role in our lives.
Okay, here are some things that have a major role in our lives: IT (say, coding and automation), legislation, finance, banking, international relations. By your token, we are all experts on those fields.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 06:14:35 AM
I do NOT claim expertise on US politics for example. People in US are generally so badly misled politically by the corporate media* that my level of decent knowledge appears expert level in comparison.
People in US have repeatedly told you that your knowledge of USA politics is far from decent, yet you persist in claiming otherwise.
Oh, btw: hadn't you lost your interest in US politics?
Quote from: arpeggio on September 13, 2020, 10:51:34 PM
Another example of accusing Democrats of something most of them are not.
Poor use of that awesome IQ
I'm an expert on nothing. My opinions derive from my best efforts at reading comprehension and understanding visual and aural cues. However, the late 1980s were a bit wild for me and I get foggy sometimes. I can never remember when to put a comma after the word "including" and I always forget the word "nostalgia." I'm like, "Tiny Tim is...sentimental...what's that word?"
One of my university professors told me that I have my "peaks and my valleys." I was like, "thanks?"
My opinions are subject to change.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 01:47:23 AM
For centuries, even millennia, some of the best and brightest minds have devoted a whole lifetime of scholarly study and deep thought to the problems of philosophy and economy, without reaching any definitive conclusions or even a minimal general consensus
Yes, it's a mess, no doubt. What are they doing wrong? I think it amounts to making knowledge claims they are not entitled to, in particular about how knowledge is constructed. The veto they want they can't have. Happily, there are philosophers who agree that knowledge of the world needs no a priori validation from the philosophical beyond.
Then you should consider the degree of ridiculousness that prevailed in the late 19th century, like this gem from F.H. Bradley:
The Absolute enters into, but is itself incapable of, evolution and progress. Is it any wonder that there would come an era when philosophers themselves would call a halt to this kind of mush?
Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2020, 04:47:46 PM
Saying Democrats hate straight, white men is just that old phenomenon of 'When You're Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression'.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Maybe stop with that privilege nonsense.
There's countless types of "privileges," many of which are strongly clearcut*. Yet the left wants to go on and on about those two specifically. The whole white privilege and male privilege things are ridiculous.
For one, "white privilege" only works in a majority white area, so it's not even white privilege, it's just majority privilege. And then for male privilege, let's just say that men aren't more privileged than women. I'll leave it that.
*looks, height, family wealth, country of birth, IQ, mental health, etc.
Also notice that I can criticize the left and the right in the same post and get zero backlash from the right, and get several disagreements from the left. So I hope everyone is self-aware at how strongly left-leaning this thread is.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 06:26:46 AM
Okay, here are some things that have a major role in our lives: IT (say, coding and automation), legislation, finance, banking, international relations. By your token, we are all experts on those fields.
IT itself has a major role for those who do coding. For the rest of us the
applications of IT have a major role. So, if you use Google Maps a lot, you are likely an expert in using Google Maps, but it doesn't mean you could write the code for it.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 06:26:46 AMPeople in US have repeatedly told you that your knowledge of USA politics is far from decent, yet you persist in claiming otherwise.
Oh, btw: hadn't you lost your interest in US politics?
Any american who has good knowledge of US politics would admit I have decent knowledge of US politics. Those who don't think so are judging my knowledge wrongly due to the lack of their own knowledge.
Oh, this isn't much about US politics, but who is an expert and who isn't.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 08:01:45 AMSo, if you use Google Maps a lot, you are likely an expert in using Google Maps
It is good to know what some people consider expertise.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 06:14:35 AM
I claim expertise only on some narrow fields of stuff that I have studied a lot or done a lot. I believe everyone of us is an expert of being yourself meaning we are experts on things that have a major role in our lives. I do NOT claim expertise on US politics for example. People in US are generally so badly misled politically by the corporate media* that my level of decent knowledge appears expert level in comparison.
* It's not only the smears, lies and omissions. It's not only what you know or don't know It's about how watching corporate propaganda every day makes people think. Corporate media has fearmongered for example about single payer healthcare for decades to serve the healthcare insurance companies and Big Pharma. No wonder about 1/3 of the country is against medicare for all even when many of these people are underinsured, without insurance, denied care, struggling to pay medical bills or in danger of medical bankruptcy.
What you call fearmongering is what well informed people would call pointing out the obvious flaws.
Under Medicare for All there would be three groups of people
People with good health care now who would be receiving lower quality care
People with mediocre care now who would be receiving poor to mediocre care
People with no health care now would be receiving poor to mediocre care.
The last group, and only the last group, would be better off, but only in the sense that having a lousy MD is better than having no MD. Everyone else would be either worse off or no better than before.
If universal health insurance leaves most people with not very good health care, it's not a good system.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 08:01:45 AM
Any american who has good knowledge of US politics would admit I have decent knowledge of US politics. Those who don't think so are judging my knowledge wrongly due to the lack of their own knowledge.
Oh, this isn't much about US politics, but who is an expert and who isn't.
You know a bunch of leftist talking points. But your knowledge of US politics is very limited, and will remain so until you recognize the people you think of as trustworthy sources are merely propagandizing for a political agenda you agree with but most Americans don't.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 08:01:45 AM
if you use Google Maps a lot, you are likely an expert in using Google Maps
Btw, this very summer I was using Google Maps and Waze simultaneously. At a crossroad, the former told me "Turn left" while the latter told me "Turn right". I drove forward but eventually the Waze's turned up to have been the correct advice.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 08:48:01 AM
Btw, this very summer I was using Google Maps and Waze simultaneously. At a crossroad, the former told me "Turn left" while the latter told me "Turn right". I drove forward but eventually the Waze's turned up to have been the correct advice.
Never heard of Waze. Does the name come from "Maze" ? ;D
Quote from: JBS on September 14, 2020, 08:16:06 AM
You know a bunch of leftist talking points. But your knowledge of US politics is very limited, and will remain so until you recognize the people you think of as trustworthy sources are merely propagandizing for a political agenda you agree with but most Americans don't.
Good, plain sense.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 08:52:47 AM
Never heard of Waze. Does the name come from "Maze" ? ;D
I should have thought you were an expert on googling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waze)
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 08:48:01 AM
Btw, this very summer I was using Google Maps and Waze simultaneously. At a crossroad, the former told me "Turn left" while the latter told me "Turn right". I drove forward but eventually the Waze's turned up to have been the correct advice.
I have found Waze superior to Google Maps. However, I am no expert.
) Trump's campaign is suffused with race-baiting and condescension toward women ("suburban housewives"). On health care, normally the most important issue for women, Trump threatens to undo the Affordable Care Act. He also lied to the public about covid-19, resulting in close to 200,000 deaths, "virtual schooling" (a nightmare for many women who must work and supervise their children's education), food insecurity, 27 million workers looking for jobless benefits, and widespread fear of eviction. What's not to like, right? (
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 14, 2020, 10:26:38 AM
I have found Waze superior to Google Maps. However, I am no expert.
:D
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 09:56:25 AM
I should have thought you were an expert on googling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waze)
Never claimed expertise on that, but googling comes AFTER you realize you don't know something. I was busy, but I checked the link:
Developped in Israel, bought and owned by Google. Concerns about individuals tracked. That's about it I guess.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 05:38:51 AM
I dabbled in some philosophy, especially in my misspent youth. But you won't see me pontificating about how philosopher X got it right or how wrong was philosopher Y, particularly if I haven't read one single original work of his and all I know about their ideas is from secondary sources, mostly internet essays.
That's too bad. It's a good way to learn. I examine philosophers who pontificate about other philosophers and point out how little has come of it, just like you did.
One way to learn is to put ideas you encounter into your own language. You should do that, if philosophy interests you. If it no longer does, that's OK, too. I'm not discouraged, in part because the history of nonsense is not nonsense, it's history.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)
Quote from: JBS on September 14, 2020, 08:16:06 AM
But your knowledge of US politics is very limited,
You guys keep dunking on 71dB for not being American, but it's not clear to me that living in the US gives one any special insight into US politics when reliable information sources are just as available to anyone living abroad (unreliable ones, too!) I'd even say that living in the US probably obscures a lot of things about US politics. As the saying goes, it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
You guys keep dunking on 71dB for not being American, but it's not clear to me that living in the US gives one any special insight into US politics when reliable information sources are just as available to anyone living abroad (unreliable ones, too!)
Probably only the cultural aspects of politics. It's a good point, but only goes so far.
I'm sure we can all agree North Korea and China aren't doing politics in a good way, and we don't need to be born there to have a valid opinion on that.
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
[...] As the saying goes, it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
cf. Kulinski.
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 11:59:02 AMYou guys keep dunking on 71dB for not being American, but it's not clear to me that living in the US gives one any special insight into US politics
It does.
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
You guys keep dunking on 71dB for not being American, but it's not clear to me that living in the US gives one any special insight into US politics when reliable information sources are just as available to anyone living abroad (unreliable ones, too!) I'd even say that living in the US probably obscures a lot of things about US politics. As the saying goes, it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
That's a nice support of me, thanks! My point has been all along people living outside the US may have insight people in the US doesn't have so much. Foreigner can have insight. I learn from foreigners about my own country, Finland. I never thought
Slot Machines in grocery stores are weird, but apparently they exist only in Finland and people from other countries are surprised to see slot machines in grocery stores. ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 01:08:47 PMMy point has been all along people living outside the US may have insight people in the US doesn't have so much.
What,
specifically?
Quote from: Todd on September 14, 2020, 12:53:02 PM
It does.
Quote from: Todd on September 14, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
What, specifically?
Actually I agree, in theory, in specific ways, with your earlier post.
But you yourself refuse to elaborate on anything when asked to do so.
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
You guys keep dunking on 71dB for not being American, but it's not clear to me that living in the US gives one any special insight into US politics when reliable information sources are just as available to anyone living abroad (unreliable ones, too!) I'd even say that living in the US probably obscures a lot of things about US politics. As the saying goes, it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
My problem with him is his certitude that truth is to be found only in certain sources, which happen to share his own ideology, and to dismiss any information to the contrary as "corporate" misinformation. If he was as skeptical of progressive sources as he is of "corporate" media, I would still argue with him, but I don't think I would dunk on him.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 01:08:47 PM
That's a nice support of me, thanks! My point has been all along people living outside the US may have insight people in the US doesn't have so much. Foreigner can have insight. I learn from foreigners about my own country, Finland. I never thought Slot Machines in grocery stores are weird, but apparently they exist only in Finland and people from other countries are surprised to see slot machines in grocery stores. ;D
Visit Las Vegas. They seem to allow slot machines everywhere.
I don't know if they actually have them in groceries there but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2020, 08:48:01 AM
Btw, this very summer I was using Google Maps and Waze simultaneously. At a crossroad, the former told me "Turn left" while the latter told me "Turn right". I drove forward but eventually the Waze's turned up to have been the correct advice.
What, no synthesis?
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
You guys keep dunking on 71dB for not being American, but it's not clear to me that living in the US gives one any special insight into US politics when reliable information sources are just as available to anyone living abroad (unreliable ones, too!) I'd even say that living in the US probably obscures a lot of things about US politics. As the saying goes, it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Agreeing with a minority of Americans is bad. Agreeing with a majority of Americans is good. Finnish Man Bad. He doesn't understand America.
One might imagine Bad Finnish Man doesn't understand Americans don't agree with him about health care or climate change. He might think Americans reject the labels affixed to policies they actually want. I think this is true in an "I'm an American and I know best" kind of way. Bad Finnish Man has no way of knowing this, though.
I think 71dB is right on most of the time.
The one area I think he is a little off on is his perception of the wealth in this country. Most of the wealthy are pretty decent and liberal in their politics. Of course there are conservatives like the Koch Brothers. All one has to do is check out the Patriotic Millionaires website. One of our senators from Virginia, Mark Warner, is a Democrat and he is the wealthiest member of the Senate.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 14, 2020, 04:04:38 PM
I think 71dB is right on most of the time.
Most of what is right about what he says is available in the corporate media, which is where the self styled radicals get much of their information and most of what's most reliable.
White evangelicals and Catholics may finally be opening their ears (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/white-evangelicals-and-catholics-may-finally-be-opening-their-ears/2020/09/14/9c9d05f2-f6b3-11ea-a275-1a2c2d36e1f1_story.html)
) An August Fox News poll found support for Joe Biden among White evangelicals at 28 percent — significantly higher than the 16 percent who supported Hillary Clinton in 2016 exit polls. A recent Vote Common Good survey indicated an 11 percentage point shift toward Biden among evangelicals and Catholics who supported Donald Trump in 2016. These surveys are not evidence of collapsing approval for Trump among these groups, but they may signal an erosion of support. And Trump can't afford to lose any ground among the base of his base. (
Quote from: arpeggio on September 14, 2020, 04:04:38 PM
I think 71dB is right on most of the time.
The one area I think he is a little off on is his perception of the wealth in this country. Most of the wealthy are pretty decent and liberal in their politics. Of course there are conservatives like the Koch Brothers. All one has to do is check out the Patriotic Millionaires website. One of our senators from Virginia, Mark Warner, is a Democrat and he is the wealthiest member of the Senate.
I think the wealthy tend to think of themselves as enlightened and cosmopolitan. They probably find homophobia and vulgar racism distasteful. On the other hand, they tend to be anti-union, often rabidly so, and usually opposed to more generous social services like universal healthcare. I'm sure Ivanka Trump thinks of herself as an enlightened and forward-thinking woman.
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 04:47:15 PM
On the other hand, they tend to be anti-union, often rabidly so, and usually opposed to more generous social services like universal healthcare.
Some of them do, some of them do not.
I checked out the Patriotic Millionaire Website and it appears most the them support unions and universal healthcare.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2020, 10:54:49 AM
Developped in Israel, bought and owned by Google. Concerns about individuals tracked. That's about it I guess.
I've been using it for three years now. My experience is that it's a mostly reliable GPS application which also offers real-time warnings about what's ahead: traffic jams, car crashes, police radars. I couldn't care less where it was developped, though in my book Israel is a strong recommendation, or who bought and owns it (Google buys and owns lots of applications, that's what big companies do). As for "concerns about individuals tracked" sounds like conspiracy theory to me.
Do you have a problem with Israel or with Google?
Quote from: drogulus on September 14, 2020, 11:36:38 AM
That's too bad. It's a good way to learn. I examine philosophers who pontificate about other philosophers and point out how little has come of it, just like you did.
One way to learn is to put ideas you encounter into your own language. You should do that, if philosophy interests you. If it no longer does, that's OK, too. I'm not discouraged, in part because the history of nonsense is not nonsense, it's history. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)
My interest in philosophy dwindled greatly over the years, not least because as time went by I had less and less interest in, and time for, trying to make head or tail of abstruse ideas expressed in a convoluted verbiage (not all philosophers are like that, though). Besides, in order to properly understand what Kant or Hegel thought, for instance, one has to be aware of all the history of philosophy prior to them, starting with Plato --- and this is an endeavour which at this time of my life I gladly leave to professionals.
The only branch I am still keenly interested in is political philosophy.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 14, 2020, 04:04:38 PM
I think 71dB is right on most of the time.
I hope so. 8)
Quote from: arpeggio on September 14, 2020, 04:04:38 PMThe one area I think he is a little off on is his perception of the wealth in this country. Most of the wealthy are pretty decent and liberal in their politics. Of course there are conservatives like the Koch Brothers. All one has to do is check out the Patriotic Millionaires website. One of our senators from Virginia, Mark Warner, is a Democrat and he is the wealthiest member of the Senate.
Yeah, I suppose I have not made this clear. I don't think the wealthy in general are bad people. I believe about half of millionaires and billionaires in the US think their taxes should be raised to finance better public schools etc. Bad people exist, but it's the system that is "evil." It takes just a few Koch brothers to do a lot of bad. Also, being a Democrat doesn't mean you are a good guy. Does Mark Warner support single payer healthcare for example or does he take money from healthcare industry? The wealthy benefit so much from the rigged system...
Quote from: Daverz on September 14, 2020, 04:47:15 PM
I think the wealthy tend to think of themselves as enlightened and cosmopolitan. They probably find homophobia and vulgar racism distasteful. On the other hand, they tend to be anti-union, often rabidly so, and usually opposed to more generous social services like universal healthcare. I'm sure Ivanka Trump thinks of herself as an enlightened and forward-thinking woman.
You are correct. The wealthy are often socially liberal but economically conservative. Oftentimes for them nothing hinges from the social stuff while they benefit tremendously from how the economy is rigged for them. Sometimes the wealthy are also socially conservative. The former support the Dems and the latter support the Reps. For regular people there's progressives within the Dems or third parties, but unfortunately a lot of regular people have been "programmed" by the corporate media to vote against their own good, whether it's Reps. or corporate Dems.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 14, 2020, 05:07:34 PM
I checked out the Patriotic Millionaire Website and it appears most the them support unions and universal healthcare.
Sounds like my type of millionaires! 8)
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 01:03:59 AM
I've been using it for three years now. My experience is that it's a mostly reliable GPS application which also offers real-time warnings about what's ahead: traffic jams, car crashes, police radars. I couldn't care less where it was developped, though in my book Israel is a strong recommendation, or who bought and owns it (Google buys and owns lots of applications, that's what big companies do). As for "concerns about individuals tracked" sounds like conspiracy theory to me.
Do you have a problem with Israel or with Google?
I listed those facts as neutral. I didn't say they are good or bad. I haven't used Waze so how am I suppose to evaluate it myself? I don't have an opinion of it myself. In general I use maps very little. I don't have a car, so I don't use navigators. I don't use even a smartphone! I am a very oldfashioned guy in this sense. That's why I had not heard about Waze.
I don't have a problem with Israel as a nation or the people. I have a problem with their right-wing government and the way they thread Palestinians. The only concern I have with Google is the fact that kind of tech giants can have too much power in our lives.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 15, 2020, 02:26:30 AM
I don't use even a smartphone! I am a very oldfashioned guy in this sense. That's why I had not heard about Waze.
I feel you. I don't have a smartphone either. I use Waze on my wife's.
QuoteI don't have a problem with Israel as a nation or the people. I have a problem with their right-wing government and the way they thread Palestinians.
That's a can full of worms here which I'm not going to open.
Quote
The only concern I have with Google is the fact that kind of tech giants can have too much power in our lives.
How so? What power does Google have in your life?
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 02:48:35 AM
I feel you. I don't have a smartphone either. I use Waze on my wife's.
Oh? Someone else here without a smartphone? I use Nokia 225 Bright Yellow I bought 6 years ago.
45,90 € and the battery lasts 2-3 weeks. 8)
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 02:48:35 AMThat's a can full of worms here which I'm not going to open.
I agree, so let's keep it this way (closed).
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 02:48:35 AMHow so? What power does Google have in your life?
I am not an expert on these issues, but experts such as Edward Snowden think there are problems...
Quote from: 71 dB on September 15, 2020, 03:38:20 AMI am not an expert on these issues, but experts such as Edward Snowden think there are problems...
Edward Snowden rates as an expert on GMG. Things become clearer.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 15, 2020, 03:38:20 AM
Oh? Someone else here without a smartphone? I use Nokia 225 Bright Yellow I bought 6 years ago. 45,90 € and the battery lasts 2-3 weeks. 8)
Nokia here as well but I don't know which series. Bought it 3 years ago (I think).
Quote
I am not an expert on these issues
You said yesterday that everybody's an expert on things that have a major role in their life. Today you seem to agree with Snowden that Google have a major role in our lives. It follows logically that you are an expert on the issue and therefore I ask you again: what power does Google have over your life?
Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2020, 04:20:43 AM
Edward Snowden rates as an expert on GMG.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/591fbc1a9289ea06eaebabc49b4f43f6/tenor.gif)
From the Graun:
'The US feels very volatile': former ambassador warns of election violence
Ex-UK ambassador Kim Darroch say pollsters could be undercounting Donald Trump supporters (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/15/us-election-kim-darroch-donald-trump-joe-biden)
Lord Darroch of Kew is an expert. We should brace for widespread, what's the word, #Resistance? It is very, very important to understand that when lefties call for faithless electors to overturn an election, demand the 25th Amendment be invoked just because, and start in on listing impeachable offenses even before the election, that they are acting in good faith and that they need not accept the results of an election. The right side of history, and all that. (Can't you just hear or read lefties proudly proclaiming "false equivalence", or some other logician nonsense?)
Anyway, the best bit from this very serious, dire article is this:
Quote from: Julian BorgerDarroch stressed the threat posed by persistent malign Russian influence in western societies.
Russia!
Quote from: Kim Darroch, former UK ambassador to USAs seen from here, we really don't believe that this administration is going to become substantially more normal; less dysfunctional, less unpredictable, less faction-riven, less diplomatically clumsy and inept.
Is this the language of a career diplomat, even in a confidential letter?
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 05:41:54 AM
Is this the language of a career diplomat, even in a confidential letter?
No, it's the language of a hack who works for The Graun.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 04:46:49 AMwhat power does Google have over your life?
I can tell you the power Google has over my life.
1.) Google forces me to use its search engine because Bing is shit.
2.) Google forces me to use other photo storage sites since Google offers so little free storage.
3.) Google shows me ads nearly as annoying as the ones I see on TV.
Google is a monster.
Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2020, 05:46:23 AM
No, it's the language of a hack who works for The Graun.
If I understood correctly, that quote is not from the interview he gave The Guardian but from a letter that was for inside Whitehall use only and somehow leaked to the press. Mr. Darroch was fired as a result --- and rightly so. Actually, if I were the Foreign Affairs Minister of my country and received such a letter from an ambassador, I would graciously ask him/her to quit his office or else face dismissal.
Quote
I can tell you the power Google has over my life.
1.) Google forces me to use its search engine because Bing is shit.
2.) Google forces me to use other photo storage sites since Google offers so little free storage.
3.) Google shows me ads nearly as annoying as the ones I see on TV.
Google is a monster.
Is it Google or actually Googlev, I wonder? I mean, Russia and all, why not?
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 06:00:18 AMIf I understood correctly, that quote is not from the interview he gave The Guardian but from a letter that was for inside Whitehall use only and somehow leaked to the press. Mr. Darroch was fired as a result --- and rightly so.
The line I used is all from the author, though the Right Honorable Lord Darroch did have unkind things to say about the most loathsome country on earth.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 06:00:18 AMIs it Google or actually Googlev, I wonder? I mean, Russia and all, why not?
Pootie Poot's sinister fingerprints are everywhere, so I'm sure he has a hand in running Google, too.
Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2020, 06:15:54 AM
The line I used is all from the author, though the Right Honorable Lord Darroch did have unkind things to say about the most loathsome country on earth.
I expressed myself clumsily, I was actually referring to this quote:
"As seen from here, we really don't believe that this administration is going to become substantially more normal; less dysfunctional, less unpredictable, less faction-riven, less diplomatically clumsy and inept."
Now, a diplomat is a human being so s/he might not be able to refrain from having strong opinions expressed in strong words about the politics of the host country; but if s/he can't refrain from putting them to paper in these times where leakage has become common then s/he is a liablity for their country because tehy could provoke a major diplomatic conflict.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 06:23:28 AMNow, a diplomat is a human being so s/he might not be able to refrain from having strong opinions expressed in strong words about the politics of the host country
The Right Honorable Lord Darroch is a former diplomat. He works for Harvard now.
Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2020, 04:20:43 AM
Edward Snowden rates as an expert on GMG. Things become clearer.
Well, he was able to blow the whistle on NSA spying thanks to his expertise, wasn't he?
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 05:41:54 AM
Is this the language of a career diplomat, even in a confidential letter?
Yes, and any Foreign Minister who discouraged confidential communications of this kind from ambassadors should be graciously forced to resign. The substance of the communication is not an issue. We all realize diplomats can't use truth as a defense in public communications. We should equally understand diplomacy is not a defense in private communications. It's actually a fairly idiotic idea.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 04:46:49 AM
Nokia here as well but I don't know which series. Bought it 3 years ago (I think).
Your Nokia phone may not be a "real" Nokia phone. Nokia made massive errors with smartphones and the once biggest cell phone manufacturer in the World became a company that has nothing to do with cell phones... ...a traumatic and sad story for us Finns.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 04:46:49 AMYou said yesterday that everybody's an expert on things that have a major role in their life. Today you seem to agree with Snowden that Google have a major role in our lives. It follows logically that you are an expert on the issue and therefore I ask you again: what power does Google have over your life?
Still this crap? I put my words badly. Please try to figure out what I mean. Major role = YOUR DAMN JOB for example so that YOU ARE AN EXPERT because it's your fucking JOB! Or your HOBBY! but you are an expert!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 15, 2020, 08:06:19 AM
Well, he was able to blow the whistle on NSA spying thanks to his expertise, wasn't he?
Right.
Quote from: drogulus on September 15, 2020, 08:09:12 AM
Yes, and any Foreign Minister who discouraged confidential communications of this kind from ambassadors should be graciously forced to resign. The substance of the communication is not an issue. We all realize diplomats can't use truth as a defense in public communications. We should equally understand diplomacy is not a defense in private communications. It's actually a fairly idiotic idea.
I garciously but strongly disagree. Let's leave it at that, though.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 15, 2020, 08:14:28 AM
I put my words badly.
indeed you did. Please be more careful with your formulations, I'm watching you! >:D :P :D
Quote from: 71 dB on September 15, 2020, 08:14:28 AM
Your Nokia phone may not be a "real" Nokia phone.
It has the CE mark on it and reads [Address] Espoo, Finland.
I don't care if it's real or not, it works perfectly and does its job splendidly.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 08:58:23 AM
I garciously but strongly disagree. Let's leave it at that, though.
There's
no "leave it at that" on GMG!
Speaking of GMG and it's genuinely Big Brains, should we take a poll to find out how many people come here for expertise v. how many come here to participate in discussions with other Big Brainers?
Just like philosophers, experts have a use for people who don't replicate their years of study. They are
for something, not just for themselves.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2020, 09:05:00 AM
It has the CE mark on it and reads [Address] Espoo, Finland.
I don't care if it's real or not, it works perfectly and does its job splendidly.
Your phone is manufactured by Foxconn for HMD Global Oy which was founded in 2016 as a start-up and has licensed the "NOKIA" brand. Their headquarters are in Espoo, Finland as you say. The "real" Nokia company doesn't have cell phone business anymore and they concentrate on telecommunication network technology (such as 5G). If you go to the pages of the "real" Nokia you find these HMD Global phones there so it's REALLY confusing! Anyway the phones themselves are probably good and as you said, do their job splendidly.
I'm an expert on not having a smartphone. I have a crummy old flip phone which I occasionally use to make or receive phone calls.
I'm surprised at the nr of people here who manage to survive in 2020 without a smart phone.
Navalny Says He is Breathing on His Own in a Message From His Hospital Bed (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/world/europe/navalny-hospital-photo.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage)
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/09/15/world/15navalnysub/merlin_177050829_433e477b-09f0-4fa2-8b97-ffffa821f5d1-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
He says he's going back to Russia.
Quote from: drogulus on September 15, 2020, 10:26:39 AM
I'm an expert on not having a smartphone. I have a crummy old flip phone which I occasionally use to make or receive phone calls.
Where does one get a flip phone, now?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
Where does one get a flip phone, now?
I got it from Sprint, but it looks like they might be phasing them out.
Quote from: drogulus on September 15, 2020, 10:26:39 AM
I'm an expert on not having a smartphone. I have a crummy old flip phone which I occasionally use to make or receive phone calls.
Me too. Old flippy phone which I occasionally use to warn people I'll be calling for free on an unidentified number over the internet. And I use a map, compass, and altimeter to navigate in the wilderness.
Quote from: Herman on September 15, 2020, 10:51:22 AM
I'm surprised at the nr of people here who manage to survive in 2020 without a smart phone.
Well, I live my life as if it was 2002, except I watch Blu-rays on HDTV instead of DVDs on SDTV. ;)
Contortionoist: A Trumpkin who somehow pretends to disagree that 200K American dead is "acceptable"
) As the coronavirus pandemic continues to cut a wide swath through American communities, many have started to ignore it or, worse, rationalize the country's mounting losses as a "sad but unavoidable" fact of life. The "sadness" appears to be of a very limited type. A recent poll found nearly 60 percent of Republicans view the deaths we've experienced as "acceptable." (
The Not-So-Soft Bigotry of COVID Indifference (https://thebulwark.com/the-not-so-soft-bigotry-of-covid-indifference/)
I can only assume that Todd and Florestan are waiting for someone to tell them they're not allowed to have an opinion on how diplomats should act if they themselves are not now nor have ever been diplomats.
Can anyone be bothered?
Trump ad asks people to support the troops. But it uses a picture of Russian jets. (https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/4162855/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F29%2F57%2Ff565fbc34594a6ec79b4e84f7112%2Fad.JPG)
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/4162855/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F29%2F57%2Ff565fbc34594a6ec79b4e84f7112%2Fad.JPG)
Of course I'm not an expert on MiG-29s.
^Apparently one of the rifles is identifiable as Russian army, also.
meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/status/1305571157475811328?s=12
"SCOOP: The dispute between the Israel delegation and White House staff over wearing face masks & maintaining social distancing is ongoing & very hot. Israeli security is making this a demand. WH staff are arguing among themselves as to what is safe vs. what will please Trump. 1/
Trump has requested that no masks be worn, and chairs be placed right next to each other as if it was one of his rallies. Trump is again saying there is "no problem and the virus is going away" and "just look at our economy — it's coming back". 2/
Israeli security responded "You have 200,000 Americans dead, it's getting worse. We won't allow our PM to get this virus." The Israeli delegation was told not to leave their hotel by local DC authorities, but WH told them to ignore as "we're in control, not the local police." 3/
As of now, WH plans to limit press coverage—they don't want Trump supporters seeing people wearing masks. Israeli security openly fears Netanyahu's age—they don't want him getting the virus or being around people not wearing masks as Israel is about to enter a 3-week lockdown. 4/
The official White House notice sent to the press states that all are requested to wear masks, but the WH will not enforce this. Even worse, they're encouraging WH staffers and others who will be attending not to wear masks as "it looks better." 5/"
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 15, 2020, 04:07:09 PM
^Apparently one of the rifles is identifiable as Russian army, also.
Yes, the models playing soldiers are Russian, too. I never expected TrumPutin would actually get into ads. Is this subliminal messaging like "Noble Prize"?
The few Trumpsters we have here relish when they list everything that is wrong with liberals. Like freedom of speech does not apply to us.
I have been watching interviews of Trumpsters over the past few days. I have seen Trumpsters who still claim that:
The Coronavirus is a hoax.
The Trump tapes are not real.
And the latest insanity: Biden is a pedophile.
What scares me is the number of Trumpsters who actually believe the above.
Yet I am suppose to take them seriously?
You do not want me to call you crazy, then stop acting crazy.
I see my sister, on Facebook, drifting into this:
A lawmaker's LGBTQ+ bill led to antisemitic attacks calling him a pedophile: 'The GOP has been infected by QAnon'
"Texas senator Ted Cruz tweeted a photo of Wiener with the false allegation: 'Today's CA Dems believe we need more adults having sex with children, and when they do, they shouldn't register as sex offenders.' The president's adult son Donald Trump Jr joined in, tweeting, again falsely: 'Why are Joe Biden Democrats working in California to pander to the wishes of pedophiles and child rapists?'"
"QAnon followers believe, without evidence, that the world is run by a secret cabal of Satan-worshipping Democrats and Hollywood celebrities who are engaged in wide-scale child trafficking, pedophilia and cannibalism."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/16/qanon-republicans-conspiracy-theory-politics-save-the-children
Quote from: drogulus on September 15, 2020, 09:34:21 AM
should we take a poll to find out how many people come here for expertise v. how many come here to participate in discussions with other Big Brainers?
There's one reason only why I come here: addiction. I simply can't help checking the site every day and then can't help replying to some posts. Had I not been addicted to GMG I would have left it, or at least taken an extended break, long time ago.
Quote from: Florestan on September 16, 2020, 04:52:55 AMThere's one reason only why I come here: addiction.
For me, it's cheap entertainment - that also happens to be free.
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2020, 04:56:43 AM
...it's cheap entertainment...
...to which, happily,
all posters contribute :)
One of the reasons I am involved in this forum is to remind me that most Americans are pretty decent people (I already know the reaction some of the cynics are going to have to this remark).
I still have a problem with people who do not believe in evolution.
Quote from: ritter on September 16, 2020, 05:36:40 AM
...to which, happily, all posters contribute :)
Correct. Some are self-aware. Some are not.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 16, 2020, 05:45:56 AM
I still have a problem with people who do not believe in evolution.
I live in a world crowded with people who "believe in" stuff. Most of it is harmless.
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2020, 04:56:43 AM
For me, it's cheap entertainment - that also happens to be free.
Yeah.
For me, it's good as long as people don't get too annoying.
Mainly it's one of a few distractions which are much needed whenever I'm working on something. I can't just focus on most work solely for a long time. Every ~15 minutes or so I have to have a distraction for a few minutes. The only thing compelling enough to have my attention for hours sometimes have been video games, though of course only some of them.
And it's better than sitting here either staring off into space for a few minutes or playing guitar for a few minutes. The reason why is I tend to get a lot of creative ideas that turn into something I just don't have time for. I'm throwing a bunch of snippets of riffs and such together in a folder, hopefully they'll be used one day...
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 06:49:49 AM
And it's better than sitting here either staring off into space for a few minutes or playing guitar for a few minutes. The reason why is I tend to get a lot of creative ideas that turn into something I just don't have time for. I'm throwing a bunch of snippets of riffs and such together in a folder, hopefully they'll be used one day...
One time I did a riff that was extraordinary because it had an odd timing in it. I was never able to recapture it. That must have been 25 years ago. To this day I'm haunted by the memory, even though what I'm remembering is my frustration at not being able to remember what I did.
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 07:11:37 AM
One time I did a riff that was extraordinary because it had an odd timing in it. I was never able to recapture it. That must have been 25 years ago. To this day I'm haunted by the memory, even though what I'm remembering is my frustration at not being able to remember what I did.
Ugh.
Yeah, that's what I try to avoid... immediately now when I get such ideas I turn the computer on and write it down in Guitar Pro. It is also useful for odd timings, since the playback makes it easier to understand the timing of your ideas rather than just relying on your own sense of rhythm.
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 07:11:37 AM
One time I did a riff that was extraordinary because it had an odd timing in it. I was never able to recapture it. That must have been 25 years ago. To this day I'm haunted by the memory, even though what I'm remembering is my frustration at not being able to remember what I did.
The danger of the impromptu 8)
) After Trump appeared at the ABC News forum, which featured Pennsylvania voters questioning Trump, Fox News's Laura Ingraham pronounced the affair an "ambush" that could have been staged by the Democratic National Committee. The Fox chyron read:
ABC SPRINGS AMBUSH ON PRES TRUMP AT TOWN HALL
This response, and the town hall itself, capture a larger truth about the moment. When Trump is not permitted to freely dissemble with abandon or coddled by an interviewer who treats his magnificence as a foundational premise — as he so often is on Fox — he is actually very bad at answering difficult questions about his performance.
The notion that this spectacle constituted an "ambush" underscores the point: If this felt like a surprise attack, it's only because direct and persistent questioning about his towering failures and broken promises really are politically damaging to him. (
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 06:05:29 AM
I live in a world crowded with people who "believe in" stuff. Most of it is harmless.
We have to "believe in" or "lack belief of" most things because there are no
proofs of everything. What I find interestesing is when people "believe in" silly things when "better" explanations exist. Believing in creation before Darwin's theories was understandable, because what else did you have? After Darwin you suddenly had a far superior explantion so the rational thing was to change your beliefs to reflect the new knowledge.
Most crazy people are harmless. I'm sure I have many crazy beliefs such as Dittersdorf was a great composer, but I believe I am harmless... :P
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 08:26:19 AM
) After Trump appeared at the ABC News forum, which featured Pennsylvania voters questioning Trump, Fox News's Laura Ingraham pronounced the affair an "ambush" that could have been staged by the Democratic National Committee. The Fox chyron read:
ABC SPRINGS AMBUSH ON PRES TRUMP AT TOWN HALL
This response, and the town hall itself, capture a larger truth about the moment. When Trump is not permitted to freely dissemble with abandon or coddled by an interviewer who treats his magnificence as a foundational premise — as he so often is on Fox — he is actually very bad at answering difficult questions about his performance.
The notion that this spectacle constituted an "ambush" underscores the point: If this felt like a surprise attack, it's only because direct and persistent questioning about his towering failures and broken promises really are politically damaging to him. (
1963: President Kennedy shot dead!
2020: President Trump ambushed!
:o
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 08:37:37 AM
1963: President Kennedy shot dead!
2020: President Trump ambushed!
:o
Very unfair!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
We have to "believe in" or "lack belief of" most things because there are no proofs of everything. What I find interestesing is when people "believe in" silly things when "better" explanations exist. Believing in creation before Darwin's theories was understandable, because what else did you have? After Darwin you suddenly had a far superior explanation so the rational thing was to change your beliefs to reflect the new knowledge.
Most crazy people are harmless. I'm sure I have many crazy beliefs such as Dittersdorf was a great composer, but I believe I am harmless... :P
Dittersdorf 8)
It is, of course possible for theists to accept both a belief that God created the Cosmos, and that Evolution is part of the order created.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
We have to "believe in" or "lack belief of" most things because there are no proofs of everything.
Or people could just say that they don't know something. Which would be better.
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 08:48:05 AM
Or people could just say that they don't know something. Which would be better.
Your best post in years,
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 08:26:19 AM
ABC SPRINGS AMBUSH ON PRES TRUMP AT TOWN HALL
Obviously this is intended to feed into the bizarra Trump = the 2020 underdog narrative.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 08:39:02 AM
Very unfair!
To who?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 08:41:47 AM
It is, of course possible for theists to accept both a belief that God created the Cosmos, and that Evolution is part of the order created.
People can have all kind of beliefs. Some believe in creation. I believe in evolution. Some believe God started evolution process. I believe in abiogenesis and that life is inevitable whenever the conditions make it possible. Some believe God created the universe. I believe a "big bang" happened when a black hole was formed in the "mother" universe inside which our universe is as a black hole and we are just a hologram created by the 2-dimensional surface of the black hole and our hologram universe is expanding because the black hole is "eating stuff" in the mother universe and all the quantum information gets stuck on the surface (because you can't destroy it) of the black hole becoming quantum information for the hologram, but I could be totally wrong. I'm lucky to understand 20 % of the theories by people such as late Stephen Hawking and Leonard Susskind. They could be wrong too, althou most of the time when people say Leonard Susskind is wrong they have to go back to him 5 years later to apologize and admit he was right. ;D
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 08:48:05 AM
Or people could just say that they don't know something. Which would be better.
Sure, and people can always educate themselves and actually know something. Ignorance shouldn't be celebrated. It's not like we live in a World where only kings and priests have books and access to information.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 14, 2020, 10:32:18 AM
) Trump's campaign is suffused with race-baiting and condescension toward women ("suburban housewives"). On health care, normally the most important issue for women, Trump threatens to undo the Affordable Care Act. He also lied to the public about covid-19, resulting in close to 200,000 deaths, "virtual schooling" (a nightmare for many women who must work and supervise their children's education), food insecurity, 27 million workers looking for jobless benefits, and widespread fear of eviction. What's not to like, right? (
A nit here, but his lying to the public about COVID-19 didn't cause close to 200,000 deaths, it caused whatever the delta is between close to 200,000 deaths, and the number that would have happened anyway. That number is probably impossible to calculate or even estimate, but there it is. Still an inexcusable and imo self-serving act, regardless of the excuse he gave for it. Didn't want to cause a panic? Yeah, right. Didn't want to cause an ECONOMIC panic that would cost him the election, more likely.
I want someone who respects truth and takes the job of POTUS seriously. Biden? Not my first choice, but better than what we have.
Quote from: Herman on September 16, 2020, 09:20:47 AM
Obviously this is intended to feed into the bizarra Trump = the 2020 underdog narrative.
It also signifies that even State Media understands that he choked.
Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 09:56:58 AM
A nit here, but his lying to the public about COVID-19 didn't cause close to 200,000 deaths, it caused whatever the delta is between close to 200,000 deaths, and the number that would have happened anyway. That number is probably impossible to calculate or even estimate, but there it is. Still an inexcusable and imo self-serving act, regardless of the excuse he gave for it.
Undeniably a good nit.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 09:26:03 AM
To who?
That's one of Trump's stock accusations against MSM
QuotePeople can have all kind of beliefs. Some believe in creation. I believe in evolution. Some believe God started evolution process. I believe in abiogenesis and that life is inevitable whenever the conditions make it possible. Some believe God created the universe. I believe a "big bang" happened when a black hole was formed in the "mother" universe inside which our universe is as a black hole and we are just a hologram created by the 2-dimensional surface of the black hole and our hologram universe is expanding because the black hole is "eating stuff" in the mother universe and all the quantum information gets stuck on the surface (because you can't destroy it) of the black hole becoming quantum information for the hologram, but I could be totally wrong. I'm lucky to understand 20 % of the theories by people such as late Stephen Hawking and Leonard Susskind. They could be wrong too, althou most of the time when people say Leonard Susskind is wrong they have to go back to him 5 years later to apologize and admit he was right. ;D
Our various beliefs are no "threat" to one another, nor is the difference in opinion any obstacle to friendship.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 09:40:02 AM
Sure, and people can always educate themselves and actually know something. Ignorance shouldn't be celebrated. It's not like we live in a World where only kings and priests have books and access to information.
But you were talking about believing in things that there is no first-hand information about, right?
Since we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation. But then people turn the speculation into their group identity and eventually it leads to wars. They are not comfortable with just saying "I don't know," they have to fill the void and insecurities in their soul with this stuff.
And those people might looks towards books as sources of information about how the world began for their particular religion.... so... I'd just think of it as different categories of books, speculation books, fiction, and manuals. The only
real education is manuals. Speculation books have value, since they may be true, but shouldn't be taken so ultra-seriously that it shapes your identity and makes you talk bad about others, saying they are ignorant or whatever, when those books could very well also be wrong.
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AM
But you were talking about believing in things that there is no first-hand information about, right?
Since we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation. But then people turn the speculation into their group identity and eventually it leads to wars. They are not comfortable with just saying "I don't know," they have to fill the void and insecurities in their soul with this stuff.
And those people might looks towards books as sources of information about how the world began for their particular religion.... so... I'd just think of it as different categories of books, speculation books, fiction, and manuals. The only real education is manuals. Speculation books have value, since they may be true, but shouldn't be taken so ultra-seriously that it shapes your identity and makes you talk bad about others, saying they are ignorant or whatever, when those books could very well also be wrong.
Science can discover new knowledge because it can be wrong. How this can work has been described by Quine (web of belief) and by the Peirce-ian epistemologist Susan Haack who came up with the ugly term "foundherantism". Science uses a pencil, not a pen.
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:08:42 AM
Science uses a pencil, not a pen.
As it should. And should be kept in mind that it's just a sketch until it goes through the inking phase to complete the artwork. But people have egos...
Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 09:56:58 AM
A nit here, but his lying to the public about COVID-19 didn't cause close to 200,000 deaths, it caused whatever the delta is between close to 200,000 deaths, and the number that would have happened anyway. That number is probably impossible to calculate or even estimate, but there it is. Still an inexcusable and imo self-serving act, regardless of the excuse he gave for it. Didn't want to cause a panic? Yeah, right. Didn't want to cause an ECONOMIC panic that would cost him the election, more likely.
"They would have died anyway. They had other illnesses" is a bit Trumpian excuse. Yes, some of them certainly would have died without Covid-19, but we can compare the epidemic and corona deaths and we see correlation. However, even with competent leadership Covid-19 would have killed a lot of Americans, unfortunately. It is a nasty virus! Finland has had relatively competent government and we have now 339 corona deaths in population of 5.5 million. Scaled to the population of the US that's about 20,000. Some countries have even lower deathrates than Finland, some "competent countries have a bit more. Some countries have it easier (sparse population, isolation etc.) I'd say with competent leadership the death toll in the US would be about 50,000 at the moment. Of course, every single covid death in every country is a sad thing.
Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 09:56:58 AMI want someone who respects truth and takes the job of POTUS seriously. Biden? Not my first choice, but better than what we have.
Yes, Biden is definitely "better". Whether he is "good" is another thing. He just talked about increasing the military budget. Anyone here for that? No?
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 11:14:03 AM
As it should. And should be kept in mind that it's just a sketch until it goes through the inking phase to complete the artwork. But people have egos...
There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.
I once read a novel about an interplanetary civilization after science died. They had knowledge of space travel and atomic weapons kept by a priesthood. Oddly, it's said the plot was derived from
I, Claudius by Robert Graves.
(https://strangerthansf.com/images/vanvogt-empireoftheatom.1.jpg)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 10:18:01 AM
That's one of Trump's stock accusations against MSM
Oh, YES! So true! Bunkerboy can't take any criticism...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 10:18:01 AMOur various beliefs are no "threat" to one another, nor is the difference in opinion any obstacle to friendship.
It depends on what the consequencies of the differencies in opinion are. If the consequencies are harmless then yes, no "threat" to one another.
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.
Not an inking phase for all of science, but for small parts of it, yes.
Before the actual images of a black hole were taken, we just had sketches. Actually getting a photo of it is the inking. And seeing someone get sucked into it would be the coloring. :P
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.
I once read a novel about an interplanetary civilization after science died. They had knowledge of space travel and atomic weapons kept by a priesthood. Oddly, it's said the plot was derived from I, Claudius by Robert Graves.
(https://strangerthansf.com/images/vanvogt-empireoftheatom.1.jpg)
A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shops of Isher
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AM
But you were talking about believing in things that there is no first-hand information about, right?
No proof. You can have evidence for something, but not the proof. Forensics may have evidence indicating the murder was done by person X, but still there is not proof of that and while it's rational to believe person X did it, the court may not be able to send the X to prison and X is released of charges. Similarly for example scientists may have strong evidence for big bang, but not 100 % proof of it.
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AMSince we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation. But then people turn the speculation into their group identity and eventually it leads to wars. They are not comfortable with just saying "I don't know," they have to fill the void and insecurities in their soul with this stuff.
If you find one of your shoe bitten, you don't have 100 % proof of whether it was your friend or your dog, but it's pretty logical to think it was your dog. It's beyond speculation. Why? Because your dog biting our shoe makes much more sense.
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 11:52:34 AM
Not an inking phase for all of science, but for small parts of it, yes.
Before the actual images of a black hole were taken, we just had sketches. Actually getting a photo of it is the inking. And seeing someone get sucked into it would be the coloring. :P
Science has been confirming predictions of mr. Einstein made ~100 years ago. Scientific mind can be quite mighty at it's best.
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.
I once read a novel about an interplanetary civilization after science died. They had knowledge of space travel and atomic weapons kept by a priesthood. Oddly, it's said the plot was derived from I, Claudius by Robert Graves.
(https://strangerthansf.com/images/vanvogt-empireoftheatom.1.jpg)
Gladiator was a near plagiarism of I Claudius.
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AM
Since we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation.
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 12:05:36 PM
If you find one of your shoe bitten, you don't have 100 % proof of whether it was your friend or your dog, but it's pretty logical to think it was your dog. It's beyond speculation. Why? Because your dog biting our shoe makes much more sense.
Sure, it's logical, and the most likely conclusion.
But what I object to is this thought process which sometimes feeds people's egos, which leads to a "you don't believe, how ignorant" attitude. I think you can only realize the most likely possibilities and be on board with that, and just leave it at that. Any extra enthusiasm about it is undeserved.
Things that aren't observed first-hand can always be something that you hadn't considered. If the shoes were left outside by the door, it could have been someone else's dog. Or even some entirely different animal (at my old house years ago we had on separate occasions a turtle and a ferret trying to get inside our front door, and we kept the ferret for a day and played with it).
If the shoes were left inside, then it could be a rat. There's always something that one hasn't considered.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.
It's probably all a simulation, but meh, I don't care what others believe.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 11:36:34 AM
"They would have died anyway. They had other illnesses" is a bit Trumpian excuse. Yes, some of them certainly would have died without Covid-19, but we can compare the epidemic and corona deaths and we see correlation.
Oooh, I think you missed my point! Not that they would have died anyway WITHOUT covid, but that they would have died anyway FROM covid if Trump had not lied about the seriousness of the threat. There's a great editorial in AAAS Science Magazine about Trump's lies re: COVID-19. Since it's about the pandemic, I don't think it's paywalled.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/09/11/science.abe7391?fbclid=IwAR0spUaiRAbVuCVqog7JPhqQwjDCQz9J6Itspz2j1N0mM95NNUoUETuzRKg (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/09/11/science.abe7391?fbclid=IwAR0spUaiRAbVuCVqog7JPhqQwjDCQz9J6Itspz2j1N0mM95NNUoUETuzRKg)
Quote
Yes, Biden is definitely "better". Whether he is "good" is another thing. He just talked about increasing the military budget. Anyone here for that? No?
I'm not sure whether the budget needs increasing, but we certainly need a president who knows how to be a leader of a major power, and sometimes that means calling out the military. I think Biden will do fine in that regard with all his experience in government, and especially as VP. I am more concerned about his age and the very real possibility that he will not last 4 full years. Harris is good too, especially compared with Trump, but she does not have his experience in foreign affairs and will be facing a VERY steep learning curve.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.
Depends on how you define "the Universe". The Universe as we know it is certainly expanding in such a way that you can extrapolate back and say that at one time it MIGHT have been very small, with all the matter and energy currently in existence concentrated in a "primeval atom" (selon Fr. Lemaitre). That theory makes a prediction: the Cosmic Microwave Background, which has been detected and studied very closely.
We can't say anything about what happened before the Big Bang. But we are confident that it happened, and if you define the Universe as everything that the Big Bang evolved into, then the Universe had a beginning.
It's not as circular as it sounds. ;)
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.
I agree. Just because things that are part of the whole
can be said to have beginnings doesn't mean the whole has one. Or, is the North Pole on the edge of something because there is nothing north of it? Maybe we need a context, like "In the beginning there was the Bird, and the Bird is the Word", or something like that.
Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 01:13:49 PM
We can't say anything about what happened before the Big Bang. But we are confident that it happened, and if you define the Universe as everything that the Big Bang evolved into, then the Universe had a beginning.
I think you could say the Big Bang began the process we can now observe, but I don't think you can say with equal confidence that there was a "before" which was also a "nothing".
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.
This conclusion comes from the fact that the universe is expanding based on observations and if something is expanding it must have been a "point" which is here called "beginning" at some point in the past, approximately 13.7 billion years ago.
It's better to say the Big Bang is the point beyond which our knowledge will never go. There are theories that a universe collapsed into the "primeval atom" and that the expansion we call the Big Bang was merely the point where the prior collapse reached maximum density and then exploded outward. Those theories often predict that the current universe will reach a point of maximum expansion and then collapse back into itself until we reach the point where a new Big Bang occurs and we start the whole thing all over again.
There is another point to make: what we call time itself is a property of the universe and started with the Big Bang like the rest of the universe. So technically there was nothing before the Big Bang.
Quote from: JBS on September 16, 2020, 03:40:58 PM
It's better to say the Big Bang is the point beyond which our knowledge will never go. There are theories that a universe collapsed into the "primeval atom" and that the expansion we call the Big Bang So technically there was nothing before the Big Bang.
I don't see how nothing can be before time, but then I don't think nothing can be, period. The problem is we are trying to use language designed for at least possible imaginable experience and stretching beyond its useful range. One possibility is to consider a no boundary Universe.
"Asking what came before the Big Bang is meaningless, according to the no-boundary proposal, because there is no notion of time available to refer to," Hawking said in another lecture at the Pontifical Academy in 2016, a year and a half before his death. "It would be like asking what lies south of the South Pole."
Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 01:13:49 PM
Depends on how you define "the Universe". The Universe as we know it is certainly expanding in such a way that you can extrapolate back and say that at one time it MIGHT have been very small, with all the matter and energy currently in existence concentrated in a "primeval atom" (selon Fr. Lemaitre). That theory makes a prediction: the Cosmic Microwave Background, which has been detected and studied very closely.
We can't say anything about what happened before the Big Bang. But we are confident that it happened, and if you define the Universe as everything that the Big Bang evolved into, then the Universe had a beginning.
It's not as circular as it sounds. ;)
I don't believe any physicist claims everything, all possibility, began with the Big Bang. It depends on the definition of universe. Is it what we are measuring, or any possibility? There are hypotheses like the multiverse. We know something about the universe in which we are only.
Oh no, I took a "linguistic turn"! Here come the cops.
Put that poker down!
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 02:14:16 PM
I agree. Just because things that are part of the whole can be said to have beginnings doesn't mean the whole has one. Or, is the North Pole on the edge of something because there is nothing north of it? Maybe we need a context, like "In the beginning there was the Bird, and the Bird is the Word", or something like that.
nice
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 03:57:31 PM
I don't see how nothing can be before time, but then I don't think nothing can be, period. The problem is we are trying to use language designed for at least possible imaginable experience and stretching beyond its useful range. One possibility is to consider a no boundary Universe.
"Asking what came before the Big Bang is meaningless, according to the no-boundary proposal, because there is no notion of time available to refer to," Hawking said in another lecture at the Pontifical Academy in 2016, a year and a half before his death. "It would be like asking what lies south of the South Pole."
I agree with Hawking's point, but I don't think his analogy really catches it.
Federal officials stockpiled munitions, sought 'heat ray' device before clearing Lafayette Square, whistleblower says (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-protest-lafayette-square/2020/09/16/ca0174e4-f788-11ea-89e3-4b9efa36dc64_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-high_835p-lafayettesquare%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
(https://i.imgur.com/PkdOFzU.jpg)
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.
I once read a novel about an interplanetary civilization after science died. They had knowledge of space travel and atomic weapons kept by a priesthood. Oddly, it's said the plot was derived from I, Claudius by Robert Graves.
(https://strangerthansf.com/images/vanvogt-empireoftheatom.1.jpg)
If my recollection is correct I think the civilization of the
Dune Saga banned computers or AI.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 16, 2020, 08:27:05 PM
If my recollection is correct I think the civilization of the Dune Saga banned computers or AI.
Yes, instead they had a drug that increased life spans, turned people into super calculators and spawned mutations that had the power to warp space and, incidentally, would be right at home with GMG Big Brains.
At least this "GMG Big Brain" believes the Coronavirus and evolution is real.
Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 03:57:31 PM
I don't see how nothing can be before time, but then I don't think nothing can be, period. The problem is we are trying to use language designed for at least possible imaginable experience and stretching beyond its useful range. One possibility is to consider a no boundary Universe.
"Asking what came before the Big Bang is meaningless, according to the no-boundary proposal, because there is no notion of time available to refer to," Hawking said in another lecture at the Pontifical Academy in 2016, a year and a half before his death. "It would be like asking what lies south of the South Pole."
The question can be interpreted as "What is outside our universe?", at least that's how I interpret it.
If you keep walking "past" the South pole you start to walk back to North, but what if you took a rocket at the pole? You would change the direction of your movement 90° and the rocket would take you to space "south" of South pole! So, maybe you need to take a "90° turn" at the big bang to get what was "before = outside" our spacetime? What is this 90° turn? I believe it's interchanging time and space and you know what? Black holes do that by bending spacetime so much space becomes time and vice versa! So our time could be the space inside a black hole in our mother universe and our space could be the time of our mother universe inside the black hole. I can be totally wrong, but this makes sense to my puny brain and if I am wrong I want to be wrong in a cool way and for me this is so cool! 0:)
Quote from: JBS on September 16, 2020, 03:40:58 PM
It's better to say the Big Bang is the point beyond which our knowledge will never go. There are theories that a universe collapsed into the "primeval atom" and that the expansion we call the Big Bang was merely the point where the prior collapse reached maximum density and then exploded outward. Those theories often predict that the current universe will reach a point of maximum expansion and then collapse back into itself until we reach the point where a new Big Bang occurs and we start the whole thing all over again.
There is another point to make: what we call time itself is a property of the universe and started with the Big Bang like the rest of the universe. So technically there was nothing before the Big Bang.
So the Big Bang is settled? I thought a big bounce was still in play — compression to something short of a singularity. And I've heard theories that not all information would necessarily die with a new bang or bounce.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 17, 2020, 05:14:38 AM
So the Big Bang is settled? I thought a big bounce was still in play — compression to something short of a singularity. And I've heard theories that not all information would necessarily die with a new bang or bounce.
I don't think it's "in play" except as idle speculation... "what if" the expansion undergoes another inflection point. The last one was something like 6 or 7 billion years ago, before the Sun was born. For now, all the evidence suggests that the expansion is accelerating and will continue to accelerate indefinitely. That fact is attributed to "dark energy", something which is understood about as poorly as it is possible to understand something and still have a vague idea about it. (i.e., we don't know what "it" is, but we can see what "it" does and project that effect into the future.)
) George Floyd was killed in Minneapolis, setting off nationwide protests. But Trump's response seems to have backfired. Biden leads by 11 points in the state (30 points among women) on the question of which candidate voters trust to handle crime and safety. His margin rises to 14 points (32 points among women) when it comes to discouraging violence, and 24 points (43 points among women) on equal treatment of different groups. Fifty-five percent of respondents say they support the Black Lives Matter protests — with 36 percent supporting them strongly. Biden's lead among White women with college degrees is even higher than it is for women generally. (
I plan on voting for anyone who's not Trump tomorrow. 8)
Quote from: MN Dave on September 17, 2020, 06:06:43 AM
I plan on voting for anyone who's not Trump tomorrow. 8)
POW!
) Swing voters tend to be younger, hold more moderate views, polling finds
New polling in three battleground states in the Sun Belt finds that swing voters there tend to be younger than average, have more moderate views and give higher approval ratings to Biden than Trump.
Interviews were conducted in Arizona, Florida and North Carolina as part of a joint project by the Kaiser Family Foundation and Cook Political Report.
In all three states, the polling finds nearly one-fourth of voters are swing voters.
That includes about the same number who say they are truly "undecided" and who say they are "probably" going to vote for one candidate but haven't made up their minds. (
Democrat Jaime Harrison, vying to unseat Sen. Lindsey Graham, raises $1 million in one day
Obviously it's none of my business, but it would be great if Lindsey Graham was sent packing.
Such a revolting slimeball.
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/tya8cNVCejnrQK.5yQSRbw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTg2MS44NTAwNDg2ODU0OTE3/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/WMs7xBQIrfmuhujAR.nOIA--~B/aD05MjI7dz0xMDI3O2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media.zenfs.com/en/ap.org/0474852b9e1837bbcbd7ce203a3b195a)
South Dakota governor uses coronavirus relief funds for $5 million tourism ad despite COVID surge (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kristi-noem-south-dakota-coronavirus-relief-funds-tourism/)
Together we can build the best herd immunity money can buy!
This may not have been exactly what the Governor had in mind. It was probably just a way to prevent the money being wasted on coronavirus relief.
Trumpkins sure do lap up fake news:
Trump's most popular YouTube ad is a stew of manipulated video
It looks like dementia as well as NPD (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/1/2/1908694/-It-s-degenerative-dementia-as-well-as-malignant-narcissism-And-the-public-tipping-point-is-coming)
Everyone knows what's happening, but so far all the most knowledgeable people have reasons not to talk about it. One point that's clear is that many Americans have a deep understanding of dementia and its progression and for them the invocation of a "Goldwater Rule" must be a sick joke.
Why won't his family intervene to get him the care he needs?
Quote from: drogulus on September 17, 2020, 09:26:40 AM
Why won't his family intervene to get him the care he needs?
Guess he's just been too much of a shit, too consistently.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Guess he's just been too much of a shit, too consistently.
I think it looks like a Gordian knot to them. Perhaps they hope they can take him home early next year and he doesn't disintegrate further before then. The WH vipers are telling them everything is under control, but they must know under control is not what everything is. The voter session confirms what recent interviews have shown, that he no longer can function outside an environment that's carefully controlled. He wandered around looking for the car that was right in front of him when he got off the plane, yet if video and photography of such occasions is forbidden how will it be explained?
The big media don't want to touch this. I think it's "you go first and take the heat".
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 17, 2020, 05:14:38 AM
So the Big Bang is settled? I thought a big bounce was still in play — compression to something short of a singularity. And I've heard theories that not all information would necessarily die with a new bang or bounce.
Here's what Sean Carroll has to say about it:
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2007/04/27/how-did-the-universe-start/
Quote from: drogulus on September 17, 2020, 09:26:40 AM
Why won't his family intervene to get him the care he needs?
Very often the patient will refuse care, often in a very determined fashion, especially if the diagnosis is made relatively late and the patient has lost the ability to come to terms with it while still functioning with some mental competency.
Is Trump that sort of patient? We don't know. We don't have access to his medical records, and without those any diagnosis is pure speculation and should be treated as fake news. There are various forms of dementia and no case is alike, so none of us are in a position to say anything worthwhile.
Quote from: drogulus on September 17, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
He wandered around looking for the car that was right in front of him when he got off the plane, yet if video and photography of such occasions is forbidden how will it be explained?
The big media don't want to touch this. I think it's "you go first and take the heat".
what's this? I seemed to have missed this.
Quote from: JBS on September 17, 2020, 04:56:59 PM
Very often the patient will refuse care, often in a very determined fashion, especially if the diagnosis is made relatively late and the patient has lost the ability to come to terms with it while still functioning with some mental competency.
Is Trump that sort of patient? We don't know. We don't have access to his medical records, and without those any diagnosis is pure speculation and should be treated as fake news. There are various forms of dementia and no case is alike, so none of us are in a position to say anything worthwhile.
+1 to this. Best we confine ourselves to his performance as president. It's all we can really discuss with confidence, and it is plenty bad,
Quote from: JBS on September 17, 2020, 04:56:59 PM
Is Trump that sort of patient? We don't know. We don't have access to his medical records, and without those any diagnosis is pure speculation and should be treated as fake news. There are various forms of dementia and no case is alike, so none of us are in a position to say anything worthwhile.
We have the same information that would cause you to take a relative to the doctor, who would refer your relative to a neurologist for an in person examination and an MRI to pin down what kind of damage could cause the numerous symptoms he's displaying. This is not analogous to long distance Freudian psychoanalysis. We don't know which kind of dementia he has, but he has one of them.
Quote from: Herman on September 17, 2020, 05:35:09 PM
what's this? I seemed to have missed this.
https://www.youtube.com/v/sF5TGQgQJeA
Trump's cognitive deficits seem worse. We need to know if he has dementia: Psychologist (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3cJN7zCACWkJ:https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/04/09/does-donald-trump-have-dementia-we-need-know-psychologist-column/3404007002/+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d)
I suppose this skirts any Goldwater problems. I only would add that it's clear why we need to know, as the article discusses.
Olivia Troye, who worked as homeland security, counterterrorism and coronavirus adviser to Vice President Pence for two years, said that the administration's response cost lives and that she will vote for Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden this fall because of her experience in the Trump White House.
Of course according to Trump she is just another disgruntle employee.
Having watched the footage of Trump coming from the aeroplane, I would not say he was "wandering around aimlessly". It looks like he wanted to "walk purposefully" for the cameras, do a performance, rather than get in the car. And, indeed, he forgot what the plan was (= get in the car to the WH or whatever).
Trump is 100% performer. It's the one thing he loves about being POTUS. No matter what he does, there will be cameras.
So I'm not sure this is clear evidence of dementia or diminishing mental control. The images of him wandering the WH lawn look more like that. And things like "herd mentality".
And of course, knowing the Trump / GOP m.o., the finger pointing at Biden's cognitive state. Whenever Trump or the GOP accuses Biden or the Dems of something, one can be sure the GOP did it.
Quote from: drogulus on September 17, 2020, 06:34:01 PM
We have the same information that would cause you to take a relative to the doctor, who would refer your relative to a neurologist for an in person examination and an MRI to pin down what kind of damage could cause the numerous symptoms he's displaying. This is not analogous to long distance Freudian psychoanalysis. We don't know which kind of dementia he has, but he has one of them.
So, over the years you made apodictic pronouncements regarding philosophy (including but not limited to logic, epistemology, ethics, philosophy of science, philosophy of religion), economics, history of science, religion, theology, cosmology, astrophysics, psychology, psychiatry, neurology. Is it any science you have no knowedge of, or topic you have no opinion on, I wonder? And now that I think of it, yes there is: music and musicology, because you never ever posted about them, at least not since I joined this forum 13 years ago.
Quote from: Herman on September 17, 2020, 11:31:54 PM
Having watched the footage of Trump coming from the aeroplane, I would not say he was "wandering around aimlessly". It looks like he wanted to "walk purposefully" for the cameras, do a performance, rather than get in the car. And, indeed, he forgot what the plan was (= get in the car to the WH or whatever).
Trump is 100% performer. It's the one thing he loves about being POTUS. No matter what he does, there will be cameras.
So I'm not sure this is clear evidence of dementia or diminishing mental control. The images of him wandering the WH lawn look more like that. And things like "herd mentality".
And of course, knowing the Trump / GOP m.o., the finger pointing at Biden's cognitive state. Whenever Trump or the GOP accuses Biden or the Dems of something, one can be sure the GOP did it.
Regarding the images of Trump wandering around on the WH lawn:
In the most widely circulated clip like that, it turned out he was simply waiting for Melania to join him before going to wherever it was they were going to.
Quote from: Herman on September 17, 2020, 11:31:54 PM
Having watched the footage of Trump coming from the aeroplane, I would not say he was "wandering around aimlessly". It looks like he wanted to "walk purposefully" for the cameras, do a performance, rather than get in the car. And, indeed, he forgot what the plan was (= get in the car to the WH or whatever).
Trump is 100% performer. It's the one thing he loves about being POTUS. No matter what he does, there will be cameras.
So I'm not sure this is clear evidence of dementia or diminishing mental control. The images of him wandering the WH lawn look more like that. And things like "herd mentality".
And of course, knowing the Trump / GOP m.o., the finger pointing at Biden's cognitive state. Whenever Trump or the GOP accuses Biden or the Dems of something, one can be sure the GOP did it.
GMG is
the web destination for expert media analysis.
Quote from: JBS on September 18, 2020, 04:01:16 AM
Regarding the images of Trump wandering around on the WH lawn:
In the most widely circulated clip like that, it turned out he was simply waiting for Melania to join him before going to wherever it was they were going to.
That'd be a good song: "Waiting for Melania." What would the lyrics be?
Quote from: JBS on September 18, 2020, 04:01:16 AM
Regarding the images of Trump wandering around on the WH lawn:
In the most widely circulated clip like that, it turned out he was simply waiting for Melania to join him before going to wherever it was they were going to.
That's true.
Quote from: Herman on September 17, 2020, 11:31:54 PM
Having watched the footage of Trump coming from the aeroplane, I would not say he was "wandering around aimlessly". It looks like he wanted to "walk purposefully" for the cameras, do a performance, rather than get in the car. And, indeed, he forgot what the plan was (= get in the car to the WH or whatever).
It's possible that you're right, though the aide pointing out the location of the car might suggest something else.
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2020, 01:16:29 AM
So, over the years you made apodictic pronouncements regarding philosophy (including but not limited to logic, epistemology, ethics, philosophy of science, philosophy of religion), economics, history of science, religion, theology, cosmology, astrophysics, psychology, psychiatry, neurology. Is it any science you have no knowedge of, or topic you have no opinion on, I wonder? And now that I think of it, yes there is: music and musicology, because you never ever posted about them, at least not since I joined this forum 13 years ago.
From this I gather that you would not take your relative to the doctor if he/she was exhibiting multiple alarming symptoms on the grounds that you lack qualifications, or even better, that these phenomena are something you "don't know about".
I do seem to have accumulated too many interests to not know about. If I pared them down I might accomplish an important goal I don't have.
So it appears Biden still hasn't accepted the debate against Trump moderated by Joe Rogan. Trump has already enthusiastically accepted days ago.
If he approves, maybe someone can update.
Quote from: milk on September 18, 2020, 05:20:41 AM
That'd be a good song: "Waiting for Melania." What would the lyrics be?
Waiting for Melania
To slap my hands away.
She don't want no lovin'
Unless it's Justin.
She doesn't like my Wall,
She doesn't like the White House,
I'm scared of her looks,
I got the White House Blues.
etc
U.S. Admits That Congressman Offered Pardon to Assange If He Covered Up Russia Links (https://www.thedailybeast.com/us-admits-that-putins-favorite-congressman-offered-pardon-to-assange-if-he-covered-up-russia-links?ref=home)
The government isn't contesting the deal was offered. They say Trump wasn't involved.
Robinson said the two Americans claimed to be emissaries from Washington and "wanted us to believe they were acting on behalf of the president." The pair allegedly told Assange that they could help grant him a pardon in exchange for him revealing information about the source of the WikiLeaks information that proved it was not the Russians who hacked Democratic emails.
Sean Hannity and Lou Dobbs to be deposed in Seth Rich lawsuit: report (https://thehill.com/homenews/media/516419-sean-hannity-and-lou-dobbs-to-be-deposed-in-seth-rich-lawsuit-report)
I get the impression that Trumpists are running out of options.
Still feeling tired of politics. What activity I had here recently was mostly about black holes rather than black lifes matter and corporate assholes.
Quote from: drogulus on September 18, 2020, 06:18:22 AM
From this I gather that you would not take your relative to the doctor if he/she was exhibiting multiple alarming symptoms on the grounds that you lack qualifications, or even better, that these phenomena are something you "don't know about".
Your reading comprehension skills are exceptional, and this is an understatement.
Quote
I do seem to have accumulated too many interests
Music is surely not one of them. I can't remember, and I dare anyone to point me to, a single post of yours related to it.
But it is very easy to trace a member's posting here. If you go back and find Drogulus' early ones, for example, about three clicks away, you'll see him posting about classical music, in various categories.
Needless to say perhaps, I quite like drogulus' often elegant posts and his patience in relation to answering those political posts/non-posts that may, on the contrary, sound like a broken record.
Quote from: MusicTurner on September 18, 2020, 09:27:19 AM
But it is very easy to trace a member's posting here. If you go back and find Drogulus' early ones, for example, about three clicks away, you'll see him posting about classical music, in various categories.
Sure. According to his stats, 92% of his posts are in The Diner, so nothing to do with music. Too bad the stats don't say when did he last post about music, but I suspect that even he can't remember that.
Quote
Needless to say perhaps, I quite like drogulus' often elegant posts and his patience in relation to answering those political posts/non-posts that may, on the contrary, sound like a broken record.
To each his own. For instance, when I was (much) younger, I was in love with CC Catch.
Great. Now we all learned something.
And although there have been actual trolls who appear on GMG solely to infest the Diner with no (or minimal) music posts. Ernie is no troll. The suggestion that he has not frequently posted about music of late does not "disqualify" him from participation here.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2020, 10:29:34 AM
Ernie is no troll. The suggestion that he has not frequently posted about music of late does not "disqualify" him from participation here.
I did not imply, let alone suggested, that. I was just stating a verifiable fact.
Honestly, if I had thought Ernie was a troll I'd have ignored him long time ago. But also honestly, I'm very curious about his musical taste and preferences.
Some people think George Soros is the center of a big conspiracy. I don't, but there are disturbing signs if you know how to read them.
Once upon a time Hayek went to see his cousin L. Wittgenstein give a talk and saw he was getting quite animated and was waving around a poker while making a point about matter.
This is the most famous poker in philosophy as it figures in a famous confrontation between Wittgenstein and Karl Popper. The issue was whether there are real problems in philosophy or only linguistic puzzles. Wittgenstein favored the "linguistic turn", and Popper thought that moral problems were real. Wittgenstein asked for an example of a moral problem and Popper replied that philosophers shouldn't wave pokers around in peoples faces. Wittgenstein threw down the poker and stormed out.
The most prominent philosophical student of Karl Popper was George Soros. Obviously this is suspicious to say the least. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511XCfSXiTL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2020, 10:35:53 AM
I did not imply, let alone suggested, that. I was just stating a verifiable fact.
Honestly, if I had thought Ernie was a troll I'd have ignored him long time ago. But also honestly, I'm very curious about his musical taste and preferences.
Very good. Sorry to have misread you.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2020, 10:49:33 AM
Very good. Sorry to have misread you.
Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. Or something ...
Quote from: drogulus on September 18, 2020, 10:39:46 AM
Some people think George Soros is the center of a big conspiracy. I don't, but there are disturbing signs if you know how to read them.
Once upon a time Hayek went to see his cousin L. Wittgenstein give a talk and saw he was getting quite animated and was waving around a poker while making a point about matter.
This is the most famous poker in philosophy as it figures in a famous confrontation between Wittgenstein and Karl Popper. The issue was whether there are real problems in philosophy or only linguistic puzzles. Wittgenstein favored the "linguistic turn", and Popper thought that moral problems were real. Wittgenstein asked for an example of a moral problem and Popper replied that philosophers shouldn't wave pokers around in peoples faces. Wittgenstein threw down the poker and stormed out.
The most prominent philosophical student of Karl Popper was George Soros. Obviously this is suspicious to say the least. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511XCfSXiTL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Imo
Popper was right. (Well, imo he was right on many other things, cf.
The Open Society and Its Enemies).
This anecdote reminds me of another famous enounter.
Mises and
Roepke once took a walk in the outskirts of Geneva, where any number of Genevans had little gardens where they grew all kind of vegetables and plants.
Mises remarked something to the effect of "What an inefficient way of producing agricultural goods!" and
Roepke retorted something to the effect of "But a very efficient way of producing happinness!"
As for
Soros, may someone please remind him that after all these long years of being one of his minions my bank account is still empty?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2020, 10:49:33 AM
Sorry to have misread you.
No problem, Karl, it wasn't the first time. :P
Quote from: MN Dave on September 18, 2020, 10:52:09 AM
Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. Or something ...
Right. Let's close GMG right now, because what we do here is mostly talking about music. ;D
Good to see what some people consider elegant.
Quote from: Todd on September 18, 2020, 11:19:00 AM
Good to see what some people consider elegant.
One man's trash etc.
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2020, 11:00:51 AM
Imo Popper was right.
Wittgenstein was not denying the existence of moral problems. The difference probably amounted to the proper role of a philosopher.
Quote from: drogulus on September 18, 2020, 11:46:00 AM
Wittgenstein was not denying the existence of moral problems. The difference probably amounted to the proper role of a philosopher.
Fine. Now, please indulge me: who are your favorite composers?
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2020, 11:50:15 AM
Fine. Now, please indulge me: who are your favorite composers?
1) Uh oh, now what do I do?
2) Your guess is as good as mine.
3) I know everything about music, and that's why I don't talk about it.
4)
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: drogulus on September 18, 2020, 12:20:40 PM
1) Uh oh, now what do I do?
2) Your guess is as good as mine.
3) I know everything about music, and that's why I don't talk about it.
4) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
That's all I needed to know, and honestly all I suspected it to be. Now you're really the one and only person on my ignore list.
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2020, 12:22:35 PM
That's all I needed to know, and honestly all I suspected it to be. Now you're really the one and only person on my ignore list.
Don't do that. You'll miss out on mysterious syntactical adventures.
Quote from: Todd on September 18, 2020, 12:26:59 PM
Don't do that. You'll miss out on mysterious syntactical adventures.
I'll take the risk, especially since they are so predictible.
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2020, 12:22:35 PM
That's all I needed to know, and honestly all I suspected it to be. Now you're really the one and only person on my ignore list.
I'd like to thank the Academy......
Voting was a minor pain today, with the social distancing and the extra paperwork associated with early voting. But we got her done. ;) To avoid the lines, I supposed I could have voted by mail but city hall is right across the road!
Quote from: MN Dave on September 18, 2020, 12:48:34 PM
Voting was a minor pain today, with the social distancing and the extra paperwork associated with early voting. But we got her done. ;) To avoid the lines, I supposed I could have voted by mail but city hall is right across the road!
Well done!
You're not Batman (https://thebulwark.com/youre-not-batman/)
The most depressing aspect of this wholly depressing development has been President Trump's role in driving it. In both his political and governing strategies, he's sought to arouse political passions, on both sides, rather than ameliorate them, preferring a classic game of divide-and-conquer. It's arguable that his encouragement to violence among his own followers at a number of rallies in 2016 has been a key factor in legitimizing vigilantism. When he told audiences he wanted to assault rally hecklers and cheered on physical attacks against them he was using one of the loudest megaphones available to legitimize private use of force. He's declined several opportunities to condemn the Rittenhouse killings in Kenosha. Anyone who is for him gets a pass (and sometimes support) while those who are against him are condemned as thugs and murderers.
Trump, with no evidence, says vaccines will be available for all by April
Trump alleges 'left-wing indoctrination' in schools, says he will create national commission to push more 'pro-American' history (https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/trump-history-education/2020/09/17/f40535ec-ee2c-11ea-ab4e-581edb849379_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_6p-0917-trumpschools%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
[...]"The federal government has no power over the curriculum taught in local schools. Nonetheless, Trump said he would create a national commission to promote a "pro-American curriculum that celebrates the truth about our nation's great history," which he said would encourage educators to teach students about the "miracle of American history."
Trump is calling the panel the "1776 Commission," in what appeared to be a barb at the New York Times's 1619 Project. The project, whose creator won a Pulitzer Prize for its lead essay, is a collection of articles and essays that argue that the nation's true founding year is 1619, the year enslaved Africans were brought to the shores of what would become the United States. Trump said Thursday the 1619 Project wrongly teaches that the United States was founded on principles of "oppression, not freedom."[...]
On Thursday, Trump said he would erect a statue of Caesar Rodney, who cast the tie-breaking vote to declare independence from Britain in 1776, in a "National Garden of American Heroes" that he hopes to establish. Rodney was also a enslaver, and a statue of him was removed from a city square in Wilmington, Del., in June.
For many on the right, any narrative that challenges American exceptionalism is by default, anti-American.
"Instead of emphasizing that America was built on slavery, we emphasize that America was built on liberty," said Noah Weinrich, spokesman for Heritage Action, the lobbying arm of the conservative Heritage Foundation think tank."[...]
Justice Ginsburg has died of metastatic pancreatic cancer.
RBG croaked. Let the political shitstorm begin.
Quote from: Todd on September 18, 2020, 03:50:28 PM
RBG croaked. Let the political shitstorm begin.
So what are we suppose to do roll over and play dead? The future of the Supreme Court for a generation is at stake. People on both sides are going to fight for what they believe in even if it creates a "shitstorm".
Quote from: arpeggio on September 18, 2020, 04:18:46 PM
So what are we suppose to do roll over and play dead? The future of the Supreme Court for a generation is at stake. People on both sides are going to fight for what they believe in even if it creates a "shitstorm".
Troll's gonna troll. He's just here for his jollies.
Quote from: drogulus on September 18, 2020, 03:37:54 PM
Justice Ginsburg has died of metastatic pancreatic cancer.
2020 turns out astronomically bad. :(
Quote from: 71 dB on September 18, 2020, 04:49:42 PM
2020 turns out astronomically bad. :(
Cult of Personality nonsense.
I wonder how many Europeans would make such a dramatic assertion were, say, Jean-Claude Bonichot to suddenly kick the bucket.
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 18, 2020, 03:16:58 PM
Trump is calling the panel the "1776 Commission," in what appeared to be a barb at the New York Times's 1619 Project. The project, whose creator won a Pulitzer Prize for its lead essay, is a collection of articles and essays that argue that the nation's true founding year is 1619, the year enslaved Africans were brought to the shores of what would become the United States.
1776 Unites is a project led by African American historians, academics, and advocates to promote founding American values like entrepreneurship, self-determination, and mutual social support.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_Unites
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 18, 2020, 03:16:58 PM
For many on the right, any narrative that challenges American exceptionalism is by default, anti-American.
"Instead of emphasizing that America was built on slavery, we emphasize that America was built on liberty," said Noah Weinrich, spokesman for Heritage Action, the lobbying arm of the conservative Heritage Foundation think tank."[...]
A New York Times study describes how both red and blue states use public education to indoctrinate students in their preferred ideologies. This dynamic should dampen hopes that public education can fix the problem of widespread political ignorance.https://reason.com/2020/01/12/public-education-as-public-indoctrination/
Quote from: milk on September 18, 2020, 04:57:37 PM
1776 Unites is a project led by African American historians, academics, and advocates to promote founding American values like entrepreneurship, self-determination, and mutual social support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_Unites
Are you sure that's the same as the 1776 thing Trump is talking about? I don't think it is.
fwiw his one has a separate wikipedia stub:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_Commission
edit: I see there's also this:
Trump blasts 1619 Project as DeVos praises alternative Black history curriculum
Trump railed against the 1619 Project directed by The New York Times Magazine shortly after Education Secretary Betsy DeVos praised an alternative take on Black American history, the "1776 Unites Curriculum," promoted by notable conservatives. (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/17/devos-black-history-1776-unites-417186)
though it still doesn't sound from the body of the article like that's what Trump has in mind.
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 18, 2020, 05:30:18 PM
Are you sure that's the same as the 1776 thing Trump is talking about? I don't think it is.
fwiw his one has a separate wikipedia stub:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_Commission
edit: I see there's also this:
Trump blasts 1619 Project as DeVos praises alternative Black history curriculum
Trump railed against the 1619 Project directed by The New York Times Magazine shortly after Education Secretary Betsy DeVos praised an alternative take on Black American history, the "1776 Unites Curriculum," promoted by notable conservatives. (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/17/devos-black-history-1776-unites-417186)
though it still doesn't sound from the body of the article like that's what Trump has in mind.
it's different and idiotic in his way. But it's probably where he got it. 1619 has had to walk back some of its inaccuracies. These are competing narratives but there's something valuable in both. Sadly, conversation and dialogue are out of bounds these days.
Quote from: milk on September 18, 2020, 04:57:37 PM
A New York Times study describes how both red and blue states use public education to indoctrinate students in their preferred ideologies. This dynamic should dampen hopes that public education can fix the problem of widespread political ignorance.
https://reason.com/2020/01/12/public-education-as-public-indoctrination/
It should be glaringly obvious that the second sentence doesn't follow from the first like it's supposed to. I don't think political ignorance can be improved by adopting a better bias. A higher educational standard might help. I'm sure that would create problems for some on the left as well as the right. That would be educational in itself.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2020, 01:47:34 PM
Trump, with no evidence, says vaccines will be available for all by April
As if lack of evidence has stopped him before....
Quote from: JBS on September 18, 2020, 07:10:20 PM
As if lack of evidence has stopped him before....
Exactly. But at least the headline spelled it out.
Quote from: Todd on September 18, 2020, 04:55:25 PM
Cult of Personality nonsense.
I wonder how many Europeans would make such a dramatic assertion were, say, Jean-Claude Bonichot to suddenly kick the bucket.
The judges at the ECJ serve 6 year terms, not life (without parole). And that the power and influence of the ECJ is not quite comparable to the US supreme court. Most Europeans never heard the name Bonichot because he is probably not among the 500 or so most influential elected or unelected officials in Europe.
The cult of personality nonsense could still be correct but the comparison ist completely useless.
Quote from: drogulus on September 18, 2020, 03:37:54 PM
Justice Ginsburg has died of metastatic pancreatic cancer.
This is terrible news for the potential future of Cedille Records.
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2020, 09:58:56 AM
Sure. According to his stats, 92% of his posts are in The Diner, so nothing to do with music. Too bad the stats don't say when did he last post about music, but I suspect that even he can't remember that.
And you don't at all feel weird about monitoring and policing someone, this way?
And discuss him with other members as if he's just a thing?
Quote from: Jo498 on September 19, 2020, 12:24:04 AM
The judges at the ECJ serve 6 year terms, not life (without parole). And that the power and influence of the ECJ is not quite comparable to the US supreme court. Most Europeans never heard the name Bonichot because he is probably not among the 500 or so most influential elected or unelected officials in Europe.
The cult of personality nonsense could still be correct but the comparison ist completely useless.
I admit I didn't know the name Jean-Claude Bonichot. :-[
Quote from: amw on September 19, 2020, 01:16:15 AM
This is terrible news for the potential future of Cedille Records.
Why? If anything James Steven Ginsburg will inherit his mother's assets and the label is financially even more secured.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 19, 2020, 12:24:04 AMThe cult of personality nonsense could still be correct but the comparison ist completely useless.
You missed my point entirely. The random, apparently anonymous jurist I selected has more practical impact on the life of Europeans than any SCOTUS judge. Yet some Europeans, at least on this board, offer written exclamations of foolishness about a person who has no practical impact on their lives, with said exclamations informed by nothing beyond a Cult of Personality.
I freely confess that I don't follow the relative import of various European officials at the national and EU level. They and their actions have no impact on my life, beyond trade and antitrust rules and decisions, and, to a much lesser extent, foreign policy, which is still in practical terms a nation state function. And then the rules and decisions typically have appeal and/or implementation timelines, and reactive rules and decisions by US bodies and international bodies, before they
may impact me.
If there is a better European analog to the Notorious RBG, please let me know who it is; I'm always interested in knowing which public officials become celebrities due to the gullibility of the masses.
McConnell vows quick vote on next justice; Biden says wait (https://apnews.com/753d6979e8db6f7f0a9da03f2ee371ef)
Super-Creepy 46 is showing signs of cognitive decline. He is not an elected official and has no power. Someone should tell him.
Cocaine Mitch needs to take every step he can to fill the open vacancy. He may fail; some Republicans may cave under imminent electoral pressure. But it is the good fight, and Mitch has a better chance of making it happen than anyone else. He needs to take every step to deny RBG her dying wish. (This assumes press accounts of her dying wish are accurate, which, of course, may not be the case.)
Democrats in power: People should decide so let's wait for the election!
Republicans in power: Fuck the election! Who cares what the people want! Fill the seat already!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 19, 2020, 06:33:37 AM
Democrats in power: People should decide so let's wait for the election!
Republicans in power: Fuck the election! Who cares what the people want! Fill the seat already!
Yes!
Quote from: Todd on September 19, 2020, 06:35:55 AM
Yes!
I guess you are blind to hypocricy. Not surprising, because that's a trademark of right-wingers.
When you get everything you want politically your country will become a Christian theoracy and know what? They take away even YOUR rights! Yes, you are not part of the 1 % elite that runs everything. You will be their slave and that day you regret you didn't listen to me.
You are lucky there's lefties who FIGHT against theoracy and even your rights and freedom might be protected.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 19, 2020, 06:41:44 AM
I guess you are blind to hypocricy. Not surprising, because that's a trademark of right-wingers.
When you get everything you want politically your country will become a Christian theoracy and know what? They take away even YOUR rights! Yes, you are not part of the 1 % elite that runs everything. You will be their slave and that day you regret you didn't listen to me.
I am fully cognizant that hypocrisy is bipartisan.
The rest of your post is twaddle.
Quote from: Todd on September 19, 2020, 06:44:02 AM
I am fully cognizant that hypocrisy is bipartisan.
Except the Dems never fight like the Repubicans do. It's not symmetric!
Quote from: Todd on September 19, 2020, 06:44:02 AM
The rest of your post is twaddle.
For the sake of Americans I hope it is.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 19, 2020, 06:46:37 AM
Except the Dems never fight like the Repubicans do. It's not symmetric!
You are conflating topics now.
Democrat wimpiness cannot be blamed on Republicans.
Personal impact statements are often useful. A good example is from Trump. At one of his rallies in front of a mostly maskless crowd, Trump was asked if he was concerned about the risk and he replied that he wasn't. He explained he wasn't in danger up on the podium.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 19, 2020, 06:41:44 AM
When you get everything you want politically your country will become a Christian theoracy
Countless things would have to be done for that, I couldn't even imagine how many things. It isn't even close to being a Christian theocracy lol.
Quote from: greg on September 19, 2020, 08:00:58 AM
Countless things would have to be done for that, I couldn't even imagine how many things. It isn't even close to being a Christian theocracy lol.
Such a notion is a figment of Yurpean imagination.
I don't see personal impact considerations as motivating comments of higher quality. Comments are often general in nature and no worse for that.
Most importantly I treat personal impact arguments as suspect because of how they affect me.
Quote from: greg on September 19, 2020, 08:00:58 AM
Countless things would have to be done for that, I couldn't even imagine how many things. It isn't even close to being a Christian theocracy lol.
The Republicans are working for it thou and Trump has been appointing tons of judges and already 2 justices, all of them religious and concervative lunatics. Banning abortion doesn't concern rich people. They can easily get an abortion*, but other women are screwed if the abortion rights are limited in red states.
* And they do. Hypocrite Republicans try to ban abortion and they speak about family values while paying for abortions for their mistresses. ::)
Quote from: 71 dB on September 19, 2020, 08:42:45 AM
The Republicans are working for it thou and Trump has been appointing tons of judges and already 2 justices, all of them religious and concervative lunatics. Banning abortion doesn't concern rich people. They can easily get an abortion*, but other women are screwed if the abortion rights are limited in red states.
* And they do. Hypocrite Republicans try to ban abortion and they speak about family values while paying for abortions for their mistresses. ::)
Ok, but far more things than abortion laws would have to be changed to make it a Christian theocracy.
How I would imagine a Christian theocracy would be is like being in public is like living inside of a church. I pretty much grew up in Church. And went to public school at the same time.
So, to put it simply, such switch in environments was super bipolar. They are pretty much pure opposites. So many things would have to change. One thing might be society looking like this anime called "Shimoneta: A World Where Dirty Jokes Don't Exist." But I could think of so many more things. Actually, I should stop, I'm getting
way too many ideas.
The Christian world and secular world are basically low-key enemies, but the nice thing is that there is a maturity involved where most of people's attitudes are "come join us," with a smile. Of course, there may be some shaming, but it is a more mature relationship than societies that will use violence to get them on their side. My guess is what causes the more mature relationship is the American attitude of "live and let live." But it's just a guess, I don't really know for sure.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 19, 2020, 08:42:45 AMThe Republicans are working for it thou and Trump has been appointing tons of judges and already 2 justices, all of them religious and concervative lunatics.
That's one way to look at things. One that is not fact-based.
And abortion in the US is clearly such a potent wedge issue that Europeans cannot help themselves from commenting on it.
There have been very few Christian Theocracies; I think the last major one was the Cromwell period in Britain almost 400 years ago. No matter what interesting SF books Atwood wrote 40 years ago, neither a Cromwell nor a Handmaid's tale scenario is very likely.
New York will honor Ruth Bader Ginsburg with statue in Brooklyn (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/19/new-york-ruth-bader-ginsburg-statue-brooklyn)
Maybe one day it will be torn down by a mob, who knows.
Most Trump conservatives do not understand that at the most they are only 30% of the electorate.
They live in a dream world where they feel that they can impose their agenda on the 70% and they are going to roll over and play dead.
If they try to use guns they do not understand that the other side also has guns.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 19, 2020, 10:20:51 AM
There have been very few Christian Theocracies; I think the last major one was the Cromwell period in Britain almost 400 years ago. No matter what interesting SF books Atwood wrote 40 years ago, neither a Cromwell nor a Handmaid's tale scenario is very likely.
As Atwood explained it:
"I made a rule for myself: I would not include anything that human beings had not already done in some other place or
time, or for which the technology did not already exist. I did not wish to be accused of dark, twisted inventions, or of
misrepresenting the human potential for deplorable behavior. The group-activated hangings, the tearing apart of
human beings, the clothing specific to castes and classes, the forced childbearing and the appropriation of the results,
the children stolen by regimes and placed for upbringing with high-ranking officials, the forbidding of literacy, the
denial of property rights—all had precedents, and many of these were to be found, not in other cultures and religions,
but within Western society, and within the "Christian" tradition itself."
https://lithub.com/margaret-atwood-on-how-she-came-to-write-the-handmaids-tale/
The novel also has some rather mordant and dark humor; it's not a humorless feminist tract.
Quote from: Dowder on September 19, 2020, 05:35:10 PM
Anyways, the Dems impeached Trump at the start of this year and now he gets to nominate another SC justice and make the court decidedly conservative. (Karma is a you know what, folks. >:D) No more worrying about Roberts flaking out or swing votes.
The future belongs to the conservatives and after Trump wins re-election there's gonna be four more years of winning.
Look who's dancing on RBG's grave, yelling "winning!" counting 200.000 dead.
Who knows how many more dead in four more years? Winning!
Quote from: arpeggio on September 19, 2020, 07:44:46 PM
Most Trump conservatives do not understand that at the most they are only 30% of the electorate.
They live in a dream world where they feel that they can impose their agenda on the 70% and they are going to roll over and play dead.
If they try to use guns they do not understand that the other side also has guns.
A cautionary note: even Bob Woodward, opining on Washington Week this past Friday, gave some credence to the idea of a "silent Trump voter" contingent. These would be people who don't admit their fealty to Trump, even to their spouses, and certainly not to pollsters. I'm not sure there are enough of them to swing the election, but it's reason to take the current polls with a grain of salt.
Yes, the silent Trump voter is a big factor, and the Trump campaign is trying to yank his or her crank all the time, with these appeals to white people's fears.
Quote from: Herman on September 19, 2020, 11:17:15 PM
Look who's dancing on RBG's grave, yelling "winning!" counting 200.000 dead.
Who knows how many more dead in four more years? Winning!
+1
Quote from: Herman on September 19, 2020, 11:17:15 PM
Look who's dancing on RBG's grave, yelling "winning!" counting 200.000 dead.
Who knows how many more dead in four more years? Winning!
Well, Trump didn't get where he is today by appealing to decency.
'Nothing is off the table': Supreme Court fight could reshape the Senate
Democrats are vowing to hit back at Republicans if they fill the vacant Supreme Court seat before January. (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/19/rbg-supreme-court-replacement-fight-senate-418438)
It did not take long for things to get good. Cryin' Chuck is threatening to destroy the legislative filibuster, if not directly, then not at all subtly. Other Democrats are throwing preemptive temper tantrums and making very,
very scary threats.
Quote from: Marianne Levine, Andrew Desiderio, and John Brenahan...Other Democrats suggested the party should move to pack the Supreme Court with additional justices in order to dilute the power of the conservative majority. Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.) tweeted on Friday that if McConnell moves to fill Ginsburg's seat this year and Democrats win control of the Senate and the White House, "we must abolish the filibuster and expand the Supreme Court."
There has even been talk in Democratic circles of having the House impeach any justice placed on the high court by Trump and McConnell's maneuvers, although it would still take a two-thirds vote by the Senate to remove that person from the Supreme Court. Similar sentiments were floated by Democrats during the Kavanaugh fight but went nowhere...
Aside from the fact that some of the threats are mere grandstanding to placate various constituents, and also aside from the fact that Dems have demonstrated a degree of legislative and institutional incompetence when trying to make such big changes, this does indicate that Super-Creepy 46's first term could be hobbled by "ferocious" partisanship right out of the gate. (Ferocious is in quotes because Dems are often too wimpy to do what it takes.) Such an outcome would be very welcome. This is a further reason for McConnell to attempt and succeed in replacing Notorious RBG. Let the legislative filibuster die. Then let the next all Republican government destroy the ACA, parts of the Great Society, and even part of the New Deal. Maybe even go after some Progressive Era legislation still on the books. The possibilities are, if not endless, then numerous and endlessly entertaining.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 20, 2020, 05:00:03 AM
+1
And of course, there are some here whose impoverished idea of entertainment is a "shitstorm."
Quote from: Todd on September 20, 2020, 05:25:13 AM
'Nothing is off the table': Supreme Court fight could reshape the Senate
Democrats are vowing to hit back at Republicans if they fill the vacant Supreme Court seat before January. (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/19/rbg-supreme-court-replacement-fight-senate-418438)
It did not take long for things to get good. Cryin' Chuck is threatening to destroy the legislative filibuster, if not directly, then not at all subtly. Other Democrats are throwing preemptive temper tantrums and making very, very scary threats.
Aside from the fact that some of the threats are mere grandstanding to placate various constituents, and also aside from the fact that Dems have demonstrated a degree of legislative and institutional incompetence when trying to make such big changes, this does indicate that Super-Creepy 46's first term could be hobbled by "ferocious" partisanship right out of the gate. (Ferocious is in quotes because Dems are often too wimpy to do what it takes.) Such an outcome would be very welcome. This is a further reason for McConnell to attempt and succeed in replacing Notorious RBG. Let the legislative filibuster die. Then let the next all Republican government destroy the ACA, parts of the Great Society, and even part of the New Deal. Maybe even go after some Progressive Era legislation still on the books. The possibilities are, if not endless, then numerous and endlessly entertaining.
let's just go back to the 19th century.
Quote from: milk on September 20, 2020, 05:42:46 AM
let's just go back to the 19th century.
You obviously completely misunderstand. If Republicans destroy institutions and repeal laws thanks to short-sighted Democrat actions committed while Democrats are throwing a collective temper tantrum - as they have been doing since November 2016 - then Democrats can pass corrective legislation. And then Republicans can eliminate or hobble that legislation and those institutions, too. It would be a virtuous circle that could weaken the federal government and make it less effective. One must always keep one's eyes on the prize.
Portland protests resume after hiatus, will likely continue (https://katu.com/news/local/portland-protests-resume-after-hiatus-will-likely-continue)
On the local front, dipshit protestors are back at it in Stumptown - they started back in the day after thunderstorms brought air-cleansing rains. This indicates that there is little to no focus or organization. More than a few locals are still reeling from the devastation of the recent fires, now mostly extinguished. More than a few other locals are now devoting time and energy to helping those affected. You know, people who have lost family members and homes, that sort of thing. The protestors' messages - there are many, unfocussed messages; it's a lefty grievance grab bag - may not have as much traction for a while. Situational awareness can be helpful in times like these.
Quote from: Todd on September 20, 2020, 06:09:05 AM
Portland protests resume after hiatus, will likely continue (https://katu.com/news/local/portland-protests-resume-after-hiatus-will-likely-continue)
On the local front, dipshit protestors are back at it in Stumptown - they started back in the day after thunderstorms brought air-cleansing rains. This indicates that there is little to no focus or organization. More than a few locals are still reeling from the devastation of the recent fires, now mostly extinguished. More than a few other locals are now devoting time and energy to helping those affected. You know, people who have lost family members and homes, that sort of thing. The protestors' messages - there are many, unfocussed messages; it's a lefty grievance grab bag - may not have as much traction for a while. Situational awareness can be helpful in times like these.
Most humans are not performing at a high level so I don't know why you expect awareness from them.
She's trying to save her ass seat, but is it too little, too late?
Susan Collins: No Supreme Court vote before Election Day
Quote from: MN Dave on September 20, 2020, 06:16:19 AM
Most humans are not performing at a high level so I don't know why you expect awareness from them.
I don't.
) There will always be a wing of Trump supporters who will support him no matter how much bleach he instructs them to drink or how many war heroes he assails. But if the Supreme Court is Biden-proof, there may be just enough conservative voters willing to choose normalcy over daily insanity. (
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 20, 2020, 06:37:56 AM
) There will always be a wing of Trump supporters who will support him no matter how much bleach he instructs them to drink or how many war heroes he assails. But if the Supreme Court is Biden-proof, there may be just enough conservative voters willing to choose normalcy over daily insanity. (
That is, indeed, another angle to consider. Not sure I would accept a packed SCOTUS (either way, I prefer balance) as the price for normalcy, though.
Quote from: greg on September 19, 2020, 09:13:41 AM
Ok, but far more things than abortion laws would have to be changed to make it a Christian theocracy.
How I would imagine a Christian theocracy would be is like being in public is like living inside of a church. I pretty much grew up in Church. And went to public school at the same time.
So, to put it simply, such switch in environments was super bipolar. They are pretty much pure opposites. So many things would have to change. One thing might be society looking like this anime called "Shimoneta: A World Where Dirty Jokes Don't Exist." But I could think of so many more things. Actually, I should stop, I'm getting way too many ideas.
The Christian world and secular world are basically low-key enemies, but the nice thing is that there is a maturity involved where most of people's attitudes are "come join us," with a smile. Of course, there may be some shaming, but it is a more mature relationship than societies that will use violence to get them on their side. My guess is what causes the more mature relationship is the American attitude of "live and let live." But it's just a guess, I don't really know for sure.
In a theoracy people can deny science whenever it is in contradiction with their faith and more importantly those in power can deny science when it threatens their power. This is already happening in the US. Just look at dr. Fauci vs. Trump or climate scientists vs. fossile fuel industry. The US was wisely founded as a secular country (separation of church and state), but it has never been very secular, has it? So, not that much needs to be changed to get to theocracy.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2020, 06:51:20 AMSo, not that much needs to be changed to get to theocracy.
Incorrect.
The very few attempts at theocracy that have taken place in the Christendom were (1) very short lived, and (2) overwhelmingly Protestant; the only Catholic theocracy I'm aware of is Florence during the very short rule of Savonarola.
The probability that the USA, or any other "Western" country (former Communist countries included), turn into a Christian theocracy is lesser than the probability that each and everyone of the currently active GMGers get Covid-19 --- which God forbid!
And btw, I'd very much like to know which Western "Christian" state enacted laws forbiding literacy, or mandating specific clothing for specfic classes
Quote from: Dowder on September 20, 2020, 07:54:37 AM
Maybe the next pope will be Donald Trump. According to your logic, it could definitely happen. ;D
There's no need. He's the pope of something according to the behavior of his adherents. I don't know what logic has to do with it. Since I'm distracted by football, I don't have the energy to constructively misconstrue the (heh!) logic of the arguments.
Religious concepts are deployed in power struggles with varying degrees of sincerity. Followers tend to be sincere, leaders are more sincere about winning the fight than what the fight is ostensibly about.
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2020, 09:18:38 AMThe probability that the USA...turn into a Christian theocracy
It is a lower probability event than the Michelin Man becoming governor of Maine. People who concern themselves with the US becoming a theocracy have entirely lost touch with reality - if they were in touch with reality to begin with.
Quote from: drogulus on September 15, 2020, 03:52:22 PM
Trump ad asks people to support the troops. But it uses a picture of Russian jets. (https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/4162855/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F29%2F57%2Ff565fbc34594a6ec79b4e84f7112%2Fad.JPG)
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/4162855/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F29%2F57%2Ff565fbc34594a6ec79b4e84f7112%2Fad.JPG)
Of course I'm not an expert on MiG-29s.
:laugh: Sad, really.
Quote from: Todd on September 20, 2020, 10:06:08 AM
People who concern themselves with the US becoming a theocracy have entirely lost touch with reality - if they were in touch with reality to begin with.
Hear, hear!
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 20, 2020, 10:11:07 AM
:laugh: Sad, really.
I'm of 1 1/2 mind about this. On the 1 hand Putinist influence is not exclusively a top down affair. Repubs seem to have arrived at the position that they have no reason to be concerned about how they are manipulated. They can "not know about it".
On the 1/2 hand I retain my fondness for the early MiGs as technology.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
One could argue that the main Christian Theocracy was the late and than Eastern Roman Empire from the 5th to the 15th century. (In an case the only or at least the most important culture in history that ever developed separation of church and state and secularism was Western christianity. It didn't come from China or from Mars.)
In the late middle ages and early modernity there were laws on clothing but they were not mainly religiously motivated. The goal was to keep the rising merchant class from having nicer finery than the nobility.
I think the people talking of "Theocracy in the US rather fear 1050 social mores enforced socially, not a real fusion between church and state.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 20, 2020, 10:43:37 AMI think the people talking of "Theocracy in the US rather fear 1050 social mores enforced socially, not a real fusion between church and state.
That also requires complete detachment from reality.
I can't help being weirded out by the deification of Ginsburg now.
If she really had been this great person who sacrificed herself for justice, she would have resigned in 2015, well over 80 years old, so as to give Obama a chance to pick a middle-aged liberal justice.
People say she was sure Hillary would be the next president. Well, that was dumb.
Term limits are what's needed.
Quote from: Herman on September 20, 2020, 11:09:04 AMTerm limits are what's needed.
This is the first time this idea has ever come up. Legal scholars should read GMG. They will get the best ideas only here.
Quote from: Todd on September 20, 2020, 10:06:08 AM
It is a lower probability event than the Michelin Man becoming governor of Maine. People who concern themselves with the US becoming a theocracy have entirely lost touch with reality - if they were in touch with reality to begin with.
I was being an extreme alarmist and I know the probability is low. The left feels same way you feel about this when right-wingers fearmonger Bernie Sanders would make the US like Venezuela and people would be eating rats. Why would Bernie want that? He (and the left) wants the US be more like Nordic countries because Nordic countries do much better on things related to the quality of life.
Anyway, even if theoracy isn't coming, Americans should pay attention to what's going on in their country. Democratic voters have been ignoring the importance of SCOTUS Justices. Wake up!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2020, 11:13:10 AMThe left feels same way you feel about this when right-wingers fearmonger Bernie Sanders would make the US like Venezuela and people would be eating rats.
Um, huh?
Quote from: Herman on September 20, 2020, 11:09:04 AM
I can't help being weirded out by the deification of Ginsburg now.
If she really had been this great person who sacrificed herself for justice, she would have resigned in 2015, well over 80 years old, so as to give Obama a chance to pick a middle-aged liberal justice.
People say she was sure Hillary would be the next president. Well, that was dumb.
She was absolutely a power-hungry egotist who thought she was god's gift to legal jurisprudence (but I expect you have to be to become a Supreme Court justice). And not even particularly "liberal". Her repeated upholding of the Doctrine of Discovery & her constant and unreciprocated love affair with the police were both especially egregious. I'm not sure why liberals like her so much, except that Bill Clinton appointed her (not sure why they like him either) and she was friends with Gloria Steinem (or her, really). Something about women's rights I guess, but she did go on record prior to being appointed to the SC as supporting Roe v. Wade primarily because it helped prevent poor people from reproducing. (Later she backtracked & said that she didn't actually believe that, she just thought that's why *other* people supported it.)
I do still like Cedille though. And I guess whoever replaces her is likely to be even more fascist and not fund any classical music record labels, but that's life in america these days.
edit: anyway the obvious answer is for congress & the executive to significantly rein in the powers of judicial review. It's been done a few times before and we're overdue for a proper constitutional crisis
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 11:24:18 AM
She was absolutely a power-hungry egotist who thought she was god's gift to legal jurisprudence (but I expect you have to be to become a Supreme Court justice). And not even particularly "liberal". Her repeated upholding of the Doctrine of Discovery & her constant and unreciprocated love affair with the police were both especially egregious. I'm not sure why liberals like her so much, except that Bill Clinton appointed her (not sure why they like him either) and she was friends with Gloria Steinem (or her, really). Something about women's rights I guess, but she did go on record prior to being appointed to the SC as supporting Roe v. Wade primarily because it helped prevent poor people from reproducing. (Later she backtracked & said that she didn't actually believe that, she just thought that's why *other* people supported it.)
How dare you question RBG's legal greatness and overall righteousness.
Of course, in her arrogance and selfishness she could end up helping her country more than her party if Trump gets to appoint another justice.
Quote from: Todd on September 20, 2020, 11:30:01 AM
How dare you question RBG's legal greatness and overall righteousness.
To be fair, Stephen Breyer is exactly the same, down to the love affair with law enforcement. I'm not a sexist or anything. (Notably RBG's last SC decision was her and Breyer along with the conservatives upholding the Trump administration's decision to deport someone to Sri Lanka who faces religious persecution there.)
All through Obama's second term there were articles calling for Ginsburg and Breyer to retire and all I remember when Ginsburg was confronted with that by a reporter was her scoffing and saying "who else is there who you'd rather see on the Supreme Court than me?"
But Breyer never succeeded at getting quite the same cult of personality I guess, so when he kicks the bucket sometime during trump's second term I doubt we'll hear nearly as much about it
Well, I'm expecting the Law of Unintended Consequences will make sure that Ginsburg is posthumously handing Trump a second term, by giving him a SCOTUS that will curtail post 11 / 3 vote counting.
And then you can say adios to democracy in the USA.
I'm pretty sure we already did that in 2000.
Maybe so.
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2020, 09:18:38 AM
The very few attempts at theocracy that have taken place in the Christendom were (1) very short lived, and (2) overwhelmingly Protestant; the only Catholic theocracy I'm aware of is Florence during the very short rule of Savonarola.
The probability that the USA, or any other "Western" country (former Communist countries included), turn into a Christian theocracy is lesser than the probability that each and everyone of the currently active GMGers get Covid-19 --- which God forbid!
And btw, I'd very much like to know which Western "Christian" state enacted laws forbiding literacy, or mandating specific clothing for specfic classes
Pre 1865 Southern states in the US outlawed teaching blacks how to read.
There is one very Catholic theocracy you forgot. A rather long lasting one too. And it still exists albeit in very attenuated fashion. Its last ruler
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Pius_ix_dalessandri_1862.jpg/220px-Pius_ix_dalessandri_1862.jpg)
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 11:37:44 AMBut Breyer never succeeded at getting quite the same cult of personality I guess, so when he kicks the bucket sometime during trump's second term I doubt we'll hear nearly as much about it
See, I'm looking at it from the opposite perspective. Thomas is 72 now. I'm expecting 2-3 terms of Democrat presidents, though if all goes well that won't start until 2025. I can see him hanging in there, too. He should have retired immediately after Dems embarrassed themselves earlier this year with their impeachment fiasco. But a Dem may get to pick his successor.
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 11:24:18 AM
Something about women's rights I guess, but she did go on record prior to being appointed to the SC as supporting Roe v. Wade primarily because it helped prevent poor people from reproducing. (Later she backtracked & said that she didn't actually believe that, she just thought that's why *other* people supported it.)
Ginsburg thought equal protection of the law provided a superior justification for reproductive rights than a privacy right. This would be consistent with her view on another case where an Air Force officer was threatened with dismissal from the service unless she got an abortion. It's also quite like her use of equal protection arguments for male plaintiffs. She was in a league of her own as a strategist.
Until a few years ago I was a Christian. As a result of some of my beliefs I was told I could not be a Christian: I believe in evolution, I believe the world is millions of year old, etc. I was told I had to make a choose between God and science. I chose science and I became an agnostic.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 20, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
Until a few years ago I was a Christian. As a result of some of my beliefs I was told I could not be a Christian: I believe in evolution, I believe the world is millions of year old, etc. I was told I had to make a choose between God and science. I chose science and I became an agnostic.
That's an interesting story. Nobody tells me anything.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/sad.gif)
Quote from: drogulus on September 20, 2020, 04:02:07 PM
That's an interesting story. Nobody tells me anything. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/sad.gif)
I told you something once.
Increasingly there are stories that Trump is going to demand a winner (him) by midnight Nov 3. Otherwise a martial law scenario is not unthinkable, violence and multiple casualties.
Florid is crucial in this. If Biden could turn out a winner in Florida the entire scenario would be reversed.
So why is he not campaigning like crazy in Florida?
I'm not sure if that's a serious question; in my view, the goal of Biden's campaign is not to win the election, it's to incorporate former Republicans into the Democratic Party while also fundraising huge amounts of money for it.
Trump has been great for the Democratic Party in general, allowing them to raise unprecedented amounts of money to then funnel into the vast numbers of consultants, think tanks and media figures associated with it. They're obviously not going to seriously try to get rid of him. (I think many people make the mistake of assuming the Democratic Party is genuinely interested in governing, or is meant to play the role of an opposition party to the Republicans. There is in fact no evidence to support these claims. It is primarily or even solely an apparatus to siphon money from voters into a self-sustaining ecosystem of political hangers-on.)
Quote from: Herman on September 20, 2020, 07:06:38 PMIncreasingly there are stories that Trump is going to demand a winner (him) by midnight Nov 3. Otherwise a martial law scenario is not unthinkable, violence and multiple casualties.
:laugh:
Also that. The US military already has effective control of the country and therefore has no need to carry out any kind of military coup or martial law. The american left is not organised enough to carry out effective resistance to anything Trump does. The american right is very well organised but thanks to the american left not being very well organised, they don't really have anyone to kill most of the time. What's going to happen on election night if there's no clear winner is there will be some protests, a dumpster will be set on fire, and the police and/or a gang of white supremacists and/or a random teenager who watches too much anime will shoot between 1 and 20 people, who don't really count because they were probably black or immigrants or transsexuals or something. I assure you that your Beethoven collection is safe from looters.
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 07:51:57 PMI assure you that your Beethoven collection is safe from looters.
Whew, thanks. I may buy an hour rated fireproof safe, just in case.
Quote from: Todd on September 20, 2020, 08:05:04 PM
Whew, thanks. I may buy an hour rated fireproof safe, just in case.
It seems weird to me that people's main concern with Trump being re-elected is that it may result in some kind of chaos or anarchy that might affect them personally, as opposed to the actual harm he has done within the political system that they hope to perpetuate (and which was also done by presidents prior to him). I've given up trying to explain to people that it's actually a good thing to care about what happens to other people.
I will now leave this thread again with obligatory apologies to anyone who was offended.
"Within" the political system. As in, via the system of American government and its various levers (the Department of Defense, the Department of Homeland Security etc). The thing that people who hope "American democracy" survives hope will continue to exist regardless of whatever Trump may do.
It's just the usual stuff like drone strikes, bombing campaigns, targeted assassinations, imperial wars and occupations, mass internment of immigrants, etc that's been going on for decades. Probably pretty boring to people like you who think it's good actually.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 20, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
Until a few years ago I was a Christian. As a result of some of my beliefs I was told I could not be a Christian: I believe in evolution, I believe the world is millions of year old, etc. I was told I had to make a choose between God and science. I chose science and I became an agnostic.
As an agnostic myself, I understand why you became agnostic. Good sign is that Pope Francis is an adamant supporter of evolution and science. He is also a supporter of diversity and tolerance. This could be a partial reason why he is not very popular in the U.S.A. though.
Being on an ignore list does not mean that an ignored person is being ignored. What it means is that one does not see the message unless they choose to. There is a link that when clicked on will display the message.
I wish few of the members here would put me on their ignore list.
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 07:51:57 PM
will shoot between 1 and 20 people, who don't really count because they were probably black or immigrants or transsexuals or something. I assure you that your Beethoven collection is safe from looters.
well, that's too bad, because there is a lot of Beethoven here that needs to go.
So I thought a violent transsexual could come and get them saying I'm too white and cis.
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 08:17:22 PM
It seems weird to me that people's main concern with Trump being re-elected is that it may result in some kind of chaos or anarchy that might affect them personally, as opposed to the actual harm he has done within the political system that they hope to perpetuate (and which was also done by presidents prior to him). I've given up trying to explain to people that it's actually a good thing to care about what happens to other people.
I will now leave this thread again with obligatory apologies to anyone who was offended.
The funny thing of course is you were so off, I assumed you were sarcastic.
Yes I am concerned about extreme violence in the days after the election (there are already stories of Trumpkins trying to block access to early voting locations by standing there and singing Four More Years, thus scaring Covid-vulnerable people), however
not because I'm worried about my safety and my property.
There are actual people who care about the safety and happiness of people other than themselves.
Diner Cop would derisively say that's just Yurpean Intellectuals, and maybe that's so.
If the large parts of the USA would engage in Weimar style street fights, mutual citizen arrests and looting, that would be quite bad (although types like Dowder would just get some more popcorn).
But I'm also concerned that the nation with the most extensive arsenal of weapons on the planet, formerly a beacon of openness, is turning into an authoritarian state. More than half the population does not want this, and it would be very bad for the planet, too. Four more years of an emboldened Trump / GOP (and who says it won't turn into eight more years, if he's propped up physically?) would wreak irreversible environmental damage not just on the Americas, but on the whole planet.
Quote from: JBS on September 20, 2020, 11:57:51 AM
There is one very Catholic theocracy you forgot. A rather long lasting one too. And it still exists albeit in very attenuated fashion. Its last ruler
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Pius_ix_dalessandri_1862.jpg/220px-Pius_ix_dalessandri_1862.jpg)
The RCC is a theocracy, to the extent that every church is so by definition --- but the Papal States were not, or only nominally*. Actually, compared to Calvin's Geneva, Cromwell's England or Savonarola's Florence the Papal States were quite liberal.
* The same applies to the Eastern Roman Empire.
Quote from: Herman on September 20, 2020, 10:53:09 PM
The funny thing of course is you were so off, I assumed you were sarcastic.
Yes I am concerned about extreme violence in the days after the election (there are already stories of Trumpkins trying to block access to early voting locations by standing there and singing Four More Years, thus scaring Covid-vulnerable people), however not because I'm worried about my safety and my property.
There are actual people who care about the safety and happiness of people other than themselves.
Diner Cop would derisively say that's just Yurpean Intellectuals, and maybe that's so.
If the large parts of the USA would engage in Weimar style street fights, mutual citizen arrests and looting, that would be quite bad (although types like Dowder would just get some more popcorn).
But I'm also concerned that the nation with the most extensive arsenal of weapons on the planet, formerly a beacon of openness, is turning into an authoritarian state. More than half the population does not want this, and it would be very bad for the planet, too. Four more years of an emboldened Trump / GOP (and who says it won't turn into eight more years, if he's propped up physically?) would wreak irreversible environmental damage not just on the Americas, but on the whole planet.
I worry about Tump's finger on the nuclear buttons. I worry about the destruction of, and lack of progress on, Obama-care. I worry about the environment too and the continued dominance, in terms of wealth, of a small percentage of people (though I'm not sure how much Biden will help). I worry about the Judgeships and lack of leadership and expertise, etc. but I'm not seeing this authoritarianism. I mean, I see it in the way trump talks but I'm just not seeing the US turning into some actual authoritarian state. That seems overblown. Can you give me an example of what you mean? Maybe I'm missing it.
the way he's grooming his base for a third term. (even though he clearly will have a hard time surviving four more years.)
the way he openly treats the DoJ as his legal defense (and offense) team.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2020, 03:06:09 AM
the way he's grooming his base for a third term. (even though he clearly will have a hard time surviving four more years.)
the way he openly treats the DoJ as his legal defense (and offense) team.
he's broken all sorts of ethical norms for sure. Barr seems like the most effective one at translating his inclinations into policy. But if he loses, he's gone. I do worry about a lack of clarity of results. If there are recounts, we're in trouble. I can see him trying to create chaos.
The only way there is not going to be chaos and mayhem is if Biden wins Florida by a landslide.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 20, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
Until a few years ago I was a Christian. As a result of some of my beliefs I was told I could not be a Christian: I believe in evolution, I believe the world is millions of year old, etc. I was told I had to make a choose between God and science. I chose science and I became an agnostic.
If by "world" you mean civilization then that's thousands of years old. If you mean this planet that's 4.5 billion years old and and if you mean the universe that's 13.7 billion years old.
Many Christians believe in science including evolution (they believe God started it) and "old" Earth. I think the anti-science sentiment is more of an American "freedom to be ignorant and dumb" thing than a Christian thing. As far as I know the Church used to finance and support science in the past and only when the science was in contradiction with religion the church didn't approve it, but nowadays even the Pope believes in evolution!
I was never a religious believer, because religion have always offered me unbelievable answers compared to science which has always made more sense to me. So I never had to choose between God and science. The latter was always the only reasonable choice for me.
That said, congratulations for choosing wisely. 0:)
Quote from: Herman on September 20, 2020, 10:53:09 PMthere are already stories of Trumpkins trying to block access to early voting locations by standing there and singing Four More Years, thus scaring Covid-vulnerable people
You make up a lot of stories.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2020, 03:06:09 AMthe way he's grooming his base for a third term.
See.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2020, 03:41:24 AM
The only way there is not going to be chaos and mayhem is if Biden wins Florida by a landslide.
I'm afraid Cubans living in Florida are going to vote for Trump preventing landslide victory for Biden. :P
As to the "made up story" about Trumkins making things difficult around early voting sites:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/19/us/politics/trump-supporters-early-voting-virginia.html
Diner Cop lives in his little bubble praying for Trump
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 08:17:22 PMIt seems weird to me that people's main concern with Trump being re-elected is that it may result in some kind of chaos or anarchy
You can stop there.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2020, 05:11:33 AM
As to the "made up story" about Trumkins making things difficult around early voting sites:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/19/us/politics/trump-supporters-early-voting-virginia.html
Diner Cop lives in his little bubble praying for Trump
Now do the third term thing.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2020, 05:11:33 AM
As to the "made up story" about Trumkins making things difficult around early voting sites:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/19/us/politics/trump-supporters-early-voting-virginia.html
Diner Cop lives in his little bubble praying for Trump
Concern about other people is for snowflakes....
Quote from: Todd on September 21, 2020, 05:15:55 AM
Now do the third term thing.
So you're claiming not to have heard Trump publicly declare that he deserves a third term?
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 21, 2020, 07:39:36 AM
So you're claiming not to have heard Trump publicly declare that he deserves a third term?
You will need to go back and re-read what Herman wrote.
Also, Trump needs to win reelection first.
No he doesn't need to "win reelection".
His plan is to steal the elections by declaring victory ASAP, before the mail-in votes have been counted.
However, I'm not going to explain these matters to someone who Lalala-ing with his ears stopped.
All these matters are open in public. Same as with people who are saying "No collusion" when Trump stood before multiple cameras and said "Russia, if you're listening..."
Quote from: amw on September 20, 2020, 07:22:59 PM
I'm not sure if that's a serious question; in my view, the goal of Biden's campaign is not to win the election, it's to incorporate former Republicans into the Democratic Party while also fundraising huge amounts of money for it.
I don't see how attracting Repubs and raising lots of money isn't part of a strategy designed to win the election.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2020, 07:46:07 AM
No he doesn't need to "win reelection".
His plan is to steal the elections by declaring victory ASAP, before the mail-in votes have been counted.
However, I'm not going to explain these matters to someone who Lalala-ing with his ears stopped.
All these matters are open in public.
Is Xanax available in the Netherlands?
The bottom line is I am an agnostic, dyslectic insomniac who spends his evenings contemplating the existence of Dog.
If that is a problem with a member they should put me on their ignore list and not respond to my dribble ;)
Quote from: arpeggio on September 21, 2020, 08:28:14 AM
The bottom line is I am an agnostic, dyslectic insomniac who spends his evenings contemplating the existence of Dog.
I don't see a problem.
Quote from: Todd on September 21, 2020, 07:47:59 AM
Is Xanax available in the Netherlands?
I don't know about Netherlands, but in Finland Alprazolam is available with brand names Alprazolam, Alprox ja Xanor.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 21, 2020, 09:44:02 AM
I don't know about Netherlands, but in Finland Alprazolam is available with brand names Alprazolam, Alprox ja Xanor.
Ship some to Herman. He's a wreck.
As if Ivanka's got any charisma.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2020, 10:14:09 AM
As if Ivanka's got any charisma.
I've seen dishrags with more charm.
Quote from: Dowder on September 21, 2020, 10:19:55 AMDon't underestimate her. Her and Jared are lethal.
Huh.
Quote from: Dowder on September 21, 2020, 10:16:13 AM
At this point I don't care if Russia interfered. This has been brought up so many times now it's meaningless, like calling Trump supporters fascists, racists, white supremacists, etc. It's your go to when you don't have anything else to say.
I'd add both sides are accusing the other of trying to steal the election. Certainly a sad state our republic is in. The worst thing that ever happened was the Dems winning the midterm HOR; the dysfunction and chaos that emerged from Dem obstructionists has created the mess we've witnessed this year. You say Trump is trying to prevent people from voting or call the results early when he only wants a normal election process to occur.
What he's trying to prevent is the normal election process.
And Trump's utter incompetence/ refusal to handle Covid19 when it was in its earliest stages is the main reason we're in the current mess. Among other things, people with jobs aren't as likely to riot/tear down monuments.
Quote from: Dowder on September 21, 2020, 10:16:13 AM
At this point I don't care if Russia interfered. This has been brought up so many times now it's meaningless, like calling Trump supporters fascists, racists, white supremacists, etc. It's your go to when you don't have anything else to say.
I'd add both sides are accusing the other of trying to steal the election. Certainly a sad state our republic is in. The worst thing that ever happened was the Dems winning the midterm HOR; the dysfunction and chaos that emerged from Dem obstructionists has created the mess we've witnessed this year. You say Trump is trying to prevent people from voting or call the results early when he only wants a normal election process to occur.
Listen to the Brain Trust.
Quote from: Dowder on September 21, 2020, 01:05:57 PM
By having people vote legally?
He, and the rest of the GOP, are trying to keep people from legally voting.
Quote
Of course, the rest of the world hasn't been hit by the virus. Forget about the 130,000 dead in Brazil, nearly 100,000 in India and the 75,000 in Mexico. Russia has millions of infections but never mind the rest of the world. Orange guy didn't do anything.
Some of the people rioting probably didn't have jobs to begin with.
It was his job to prepare, co-ordinate, and ( the one thing he seems congenitally incapable of doing) speaking honestly to the public. He didn't, so thousands of people have died because of him.
BTW, India has over a billion more people than we do. So 100k means they are doing a lot better than we are.
Quote from: JBS on September 21, 2020, 01:58:36 PM
He, and the rest of the GOP, are trying to keep people from legally voting.
It was his job to prepare, co-ordinate, and ( the one thing he seems congenitally incapable of doing) speaking honestly to the public. He didn't, so thousands of people have died because of him.
Make sure to vote this year. Even Trump said this is the most important election in history.
This applies to Americans on the board only, of course. Non-Americans will have to satisfy themselves with entirely irrelevant virtue signaling.
) There's a powerful motivation to believe what the leader of your party is telling you and praise his performance, no matter what the subject at hand. And this is something Trump talks about often; it's not as if any Republicans are unsure what he wants them to believe. But only 22 percent of Republicans take the position Trump wants them to. Remember, he doesn't say that he's done as good a job as other leaders, he says he's been better. Less than a quarter of his own partisans agree, a number smaller than the 34 percent who say our country's response has been worse. (
Quote from: JBS on September 21, 2020, 01:58:36 PM
He, and the rest of the GOP, are trying to keep people from legally voting.
It was his job to prepare, co-ordinate, and ( the one thing he seems congenitally incapable of doing) speaking honestly to the public. He didn't, so thousands of people have died because of him.
My, what a busy Brain Trust it's been!
) It should have happened four years ago, but thank God that Democrats have finally found their way to the decisive argument against Donald Trump: He is a rich, selfish, spoiled upper-class twit who had everything given to him and holds the working-class people who vote for him in contempt.
"Guys like Trump who inherited everything and squandered what they inherited are the people that I've always had a problem with, not the people who are busting their neck," Joe Biden told a CNN town hall held Thursday near his blue-collar hometown of Scranton, Pa. (
One of the things that conservatives do not get is that most democrats were innocent of most of the the sins they accused them of.
Many years ago my late father asked me if I was a conservative or a liberal. I told him on most issued I was conservative but on some issued I was liberal. I have always been pro-choice. My father then assailed me stating that in order to be a conservative I had to be a conservative on everything. I was driven out of the Republican Party because of this. This is the point I was trying to make with my journey over Christianity.
What many conservative do not realize is that they helped to created the Frankenstein monster that is now opposing them.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 21, 2020, 04:34:02 PM
One of the things that conservatives do not get is that most democrats were innocent of most of the the sins they accused them of.
Many years ago my late father asked me if I was a conservative or a liberal. I told him on most issued I was conservative but on some issued I was liberal. I have always been pro-choice. My father then assailed me stating that in order to be a conservative I had to be a conservative on everything. I was driven out of the Republican Party because of this. This is the point I was trying to make with my journey over Christianity.
What many conservative do not realize is that they helped to created the Frankenstein monster that is now opposing them.
Indeed, within their bubble they imagine that Orange Man Conservative....
Quote from: arpeggio on September 21, 2020, 04:34:02 PM
One of the things that conservatives do not get is that most democrats were innocent of most of the the sins they accused them of.
Many years ago my late father asked me if I was a conservative or a liberal. I told him on most issued I was conservative but on some issued I was liberal. I have always been pro-choice. My father then assailed me stating that in order to be a conservative I had to be a conservative on everything. I was driven out of the Republican Party because of this. This is the point I was trying to make with my journey over Christianity.
What many conservative do not realize is that they helped to created the Frankenstein monster that is now opposing them.
The current liberal-conservative ideological difference is caused by how interest groups ally with the two parties, rather than the ideology causing the two parties. Ie. gun control advocates a govt restriction on social/non-fiscal activities. Therefore, ideologically speaking, gun control should be a conservative agenda. However, the gop supports the gun owners' rights because of its alliance with the NRA. So basically what we call ideology is an alliance of diverse preferences, rather than a coherent philosophical beliefs.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 21, 2020, 05:18:15 PMIe. gun control advocates a govt restriction on social/non-fiscal activities.
How does id est apply in this case?
The rest of your logic is flawed.
The latest conspiracy theory among the Trumpniki implicitly admits Trump is a would be authoritarian and Putin collaborator
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/conservatives-claim-trump-is-target-of-color-revolution-174508994.html
It only matters if the color is green.
Quote from: Todd on September 21, 2020, 06:15:09 PM
It only matters if the color is green.
In this case, since it's imaginary, perhaps we can call it by some imaginary color name?
Financial tremors on the horizon?
"Shares in finance giants Deutsche Bank, JPMorgan Chase and HSBC tumbled after the revelations that they and others handled more than $2 trillion in sketchy transactions linked to drug dealers, terrorists, human traffickers and other illicit operations, according to secret documents obtained by BuzzFeed News..."
" The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network released a statement earlier this month in advance of the BuzzFeed report, saying the 'unauthorized disclosure" of the reports "is a crime that can impact the national security of the United States, compromise law enforcement investigations, and threaten the safety and security of the institutions and individuals who file such reports.'l
https://nypost.com/2020/09/21/bank-stocks-tumble-after-leaks-detail-2-trillion-in-sketchy-transactions/
Quote from: Todd on September 21, 2020, 09:47:42 AM
Ship some to Herman. He's a wreck.
I'm pretty sure that would be illegal, but Netherlands must have similar drugs.
I would encourage GMG-ers to refrain from what the Diner Cop and a couple of others (strangely enough all on the rightwing side) are doing, i.e. discussing other GMG-members in a derogative or dismissive way while they are supposedly looking.
This is a time-honored form of bullying among mean girls: "We're going to talk about you as if you're not here, but we do want you to hear."
It happens when members have been on a forum too long, is my experience.
Quote from: Herman on September 22, 2020, 05:05:59 AMI would encourage GMG-ers to refrain from what the Diner Cop and a couple of others (strangely enough all on the rightwing side) are doing, i.e. discussing other GMG-members in a derogative or dismissive way while they are supposedly looking.
This is a time-honored form of bullying among mean girls: "We're going to talk about you as if you're not here, but we do want you to hear."
It happens when members have been on a forum too long, is my experience.
I do like the self-unawareness in this post.
Democrats largely powerless to stop GOP from confirming Trump's court choice (https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/senate-trump-court-democrats/2020/09/21/12295b82-fc1c-11ea-9ceb-061d646d9c67_story.html)
It's always refreshing when the press reports good news in the morning.
When Dems have power - various non-Americans' mutterings about Trump stealing the election and serving the equivalent of a third term notwithstanding - they may very well pack the court. There are stories in legitimate news sources (AmPo, the failing New York Times, etc) about that possible outcome. It is nice when Dems, in their professed desires, reveal that rather than adhering to any high principles when it comes to the judiciary, they are, in fact, as brazenly partisan and concerned about having a proper number of judges - a majority - as Republicans. Maybe Super-Creepy 46 can even succeed where FDR failed.
Quote from: Herman on September 22, 2020, 05:05:59 AM
I would encourage GMG-ers to refrain from what the Diner Cop and a couple of others (strangely enough all on the rightwing side) are doing, i.e. discussing other GMG-members in a derogative or dismissive way while they are supposedly looking.
This is a time-honored form of bullying among mean girls: "We're going to talk about you as if you're not here, but we do want you to hear."
It happens when members have been on a forum too long, is my experience.
The problem with the name calling is most of the time it proves nothing.
The fact that I can be redundant has nothing to do with whether or not Trump or Biden deserve to be President.
The Dems are not powerless. They are just unwilling to use their power. As always they give up without fighting.
Packing the court with conservate justices makes sure the US does not have medicare for all for decades. So, thosands of people keep dying because they don't have access to basic healthcare and million will go bankrupt because of medical bills. Todd thinks this is "good news". Whatever. Not my problem living in Finland with single payer healthcare I guess...
...For Americans I can say only this: Your utter ignorance and stupidity (as a collective) is costing you more than you realize. You ROYALLY FAILED to make your country the greatest in the World despite of all the potential and instead your country is transforming into a total shithole country devoid of democracy, decency or reason, but hey, at least the CEOs of insurance companies and Big Pharma will swin in money!! That's ALL that counts in your idiocracy while YOU or your loved ones die because YOU can't afford the healthcare YOU need. I have been telling Americans for over 3 years now what to do (very simple: always vote for the furthest left option in every election) but nobody listened to me. Instead I was told to go away because I am non-American. Well here we are. Enjoy your 6-3 court and it's both economically and socially conservative rulings that will almost always screw YOU because you are are not among the top 1 %.
It's surprising to me that no American on this forum has lost their job or/and healthcare because of Covid-19 because millions have. Maybe the "bottom" 50 % of Americans have so much problems in their lives they don't have time for GMG so they are not here to tell others how they lost their employer provided healthcare with their job and how they are about to be evicted because they can't pay the rent.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 06:37:15 AM
The Dems are not powerless. They are just unwilling to use their power. As always they give up without fighting.
This Vox article does a good job of explaining the constraints the Democrats are working under.
https://www.vox.com/21448334/republicans-supreme-court-ginsburg-democracy
Relatively fresh from Comedy News Network:
Mitt Romney backing of Supreme Court vote paves way for election-year confirmation (https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/politics/scotus-nomination-congress-latest-mitt-romney/index.html)
Mittens!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 06:37:15 AMPacking the court with conservate justices
You do not know what the phrase "packing the court" means.
Quote from: Herman on September 20, 2020, 09:53:09 PM
there are already stories of Trumpkins trying to block access to early voting locations by standing there and singing Four More Years, thus scaring Covid-vulnerable people
Todd's response:
You make up a lot of stories.
I live in Fairfax County Virginia. The following happened last Friday:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-supporters-disrupt-early-voting-in-virginia/ar-BB19dlbb (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-supporters-disrupt-early-voting-in-virginia/ar-BB19dlbb)
Very few people take you seriously around here because you make sarcastic remarks that clash with reality.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 06:37:15 AM
Packing the court with conservate justices makes sure the US does not have medicare for all for decades. So, thosands of people keep dying because they don't have access to basic healthcare and million will go bankrupt because of medical bills. Todd thinks this is "good news". Whatever. Not my problem living in Finland with single payer healthcare I guess...
Medicare For All would be a great thing for this country IF we were willing to actually pay for it. I've yet to see a realistic proposal for how that would be done. The American people just will not stand to pay the taxes needed to fund such a program. As it is, Medicare is forecast to become insolvent by 2026 (a projection from last year I think - not sure if the timetable has changed). To pay for such social programs, the US government has historically borrowed, and now thanks to COVID, we have the largest national debt in US history. I do not begrudge the spending that's been done in this emergency, but it just throws into relief the magnitude of the red ink on the government's ledger, that will only grow, even faster, if MFA is enacted.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AM
Medicare For All would be a great thing for this country IF we were willing to actually pay for it. I've yet to see a realistic proposal for how that would be done. The American people just will not stand to pay the taxes needed to fund such a program. As it is, Medicare is forecast to become insolvent by 2026 (a projection from last year I think - not sure if the timetable has changed). To pay for such social programs, the US government has historically borrowed, and now thanks to COVID, we have the largest national debt in US history. I do not begrudge the spending that's been done in this emergency, but it just throws into relief the magnitude of the red ink on the government's ledger, that will only grow, even faster, if MFA is enacted.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 06:37:15 AM
The Dems are not powerless. They are just unwilling to use their power. As always they give up without fighting.
Your subservience to the propaganda of your liking is complete. As always, you ignore (or choose an impractical disregard for both how things are to be done, and what a feasible solution would look like. You just love your pie-in-the-sky end result and imagine that poof! it's gonna happen.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AM
Medicare For All would be a great thing for this country IF we were willing to actually pay for it.
Passing Medicare For All is not a different thing from paying for it. The details matter, of course, and when they are sorted out they will be the "actually pay for it" you haven't yet seen.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AM
I've yet to see a realistic proposal for how that would be done.
I've never yet seen how the military budget gets done year after year. Is there a "trust fund" somewhere? Are we prepaying it through the "aircraft carrier tax"? What about the burden on our grandkiddies, like the terrible burden grandpa and grandma left us?
Quote from: arpeggio on September 22, 2020, 06:26:53 AM
The problem with the name calling is most of the time it proves nothing.
The fact that I can be redundant has nothing to do with whether or not Trump or Biden deserve to be President.
Redundant? I don't know what that means in terms of contributing to GMG. The entire Diner is redundant in the final analysis.
What you're consistently doing here is making sarcastic comments about other posters.
You're constantly suggesting you've seen it all, you know better, you're uglier and meaner than anybody else.
You're stinking up the whole place with your hatred.
Your monitoring and commenting virtually every post.
Why do you come here to vent hatred? Is your life that bad?
I'm sorry if middle age is a big disappointment for you, but why air it this way?
I don't really care if you're for Trump and against BLM.
Millions of people feel that way.
It's unfortunate that you lie most of the time (see Arpeggio's post a few up), but hey, that's what people do.
However this intense need to put other people down makes for an awful spectacle.
Quote from: drogulus on September 22, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
Passing Medicare For All is not a different thing from paying for it. The details matter, of course, and when they are sorted out they will be the "actually pay for it" you haven't yet seen.
I've never yet seen how the military budget gets done year after year. Is there a "trust fund" somewhere? Are we prepaying it through the "aircraft carrier tax"? What about the burden on our grandkiddies, like the terrible burden grandpa and grandma left us?
I knew Droggy would get this one. 8)
Quote from: drogulus on September 22, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
Passing Medicare For All is not a different thing from paying for it. The details matter, of course, and when they are sorted out they will be the "actually pay for it" you haven't yet seen.
I get that, but how do you propose passing it?
Quote from: Herman on September 22, 2020, 11:07:41 AM
Redundant? I don't know what that means in terms of contributing to GMG. The entire Diner is redundant in the final analysis.
What you're consistently doing here is making sarcastic comments about other posters.
You're constantly suggesting you've seen it all, you know better, you're uglier and meaner than anybody else.
You're stinking up the whole place with your hatred.
Do you realy feel this burden rests on his shoulders, as your singling him out appears to suggest? In my offline conversations with arpeggio, I have zero sense that he is consumed with, let alone incessantly spews, hatred.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AM
Medicare For All would be a great thing for this country IF we were willing to actually pay for it.
Yes, healthcare costs money. For some reason some Americans are not willing to pay for single payer system, but are willing to pay much more for a for profit system. :P
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AMI've yet to see a realistic proposal for how that would be done.
Bernie's plan? Every other developped country has figured this out DECADES ago. It is not that hard. It takes political will. That's it.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AMThe American people just will not stand to pay the taxes needed to fund such a program.
Yet they are fine with "corporate taxes" = premiums, co-pays and deductible.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AMAs it is, Medicare is forecast to become insolvent by 2026 (a projection from last year I think - not sure if the timetable has changed).
Yes, because the Republicans try to sabotage it. As I have Americans need to vote for the progressives and why not third party leftists into power to change the system so that social programs are
properly funded (taxes for the rich are raised + military budget is cut). That's when the US has social democracy and life is better for most Americans. Jeff Bezos loses a few billion, but he will survive it.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 09:57:11 AMTo pay for such social programs, the US government has historically borrowed, and now thanks to COVID, we have the largest national debt in US history. I do not begrudge the spending that's been done in this emergency, but it just throws into relief the magnitude of the red ink on the government's ledger, that will only grow, even faster, if MFA is enacted.
Again, the rich do not pay enough taxes and the US military budget is insane. It could be cut in half and the US would still have the largest military in the World by far (and most large militaries in the World are US alleys to begin with). Also, the US has it's own currency and can print money as it actually did due to Covid-19 and a few trillions were given to the rich while the people got one time $1200 relief.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 22, 2020, 11:09:07 AM
I get that, but how do you propose passing it?
You vote the hacks out and replace them with progressives who do not take money from healthcare companies, except if Trump gets to fill the Ginsburg seat the SCOTUS can block EVERY progressive law signed by the president, no matter if AOC herself was in the White House!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 22, 2020, 11:09:07 AM
I get that, but how do you propose passing it?
I'm in favor of the fiercest version of universal health care I can get, and if it has the kind of defensive moat a Medicare based plan will have, I'll be happy. If that's not feasible I'll go with the best option that is. I maintain my position that "howyougonna" verbiage represents an attempt at psyching out the opposition, and that it succeeds sometimes as the targets begin to think it's coming from their own minds.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif) The earliest it will be possible to get a good fix on the comparative feasibility of various plans is after the election. As a certified wizard I suggest the only chance for a Medicare based plan will involve a phased in approach that grandfathers in some private plans.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 22, 2020, 10:33:34 AM
Your subservience to the propaganda of your liking is complete. As always, you ignore (or choose an impractical disregard for both how things are to be done, and what a feasible solution would look like. You just love your pie-in-the-sky end result and imagine that poof! it's gonna happen.
Is your counter claim the Dems
are fighting? If they indeed are that's good news! However, the "propaganda" I have been listening to says so far the Dems have been very weak.
What "pie-in-the-sky end result" are you talking about? If Biden gets to fill the seat next year it will hardly be someone the left loves, but at least it won't be as bad as Trump's nominees.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 12:05:08 PM
Is your counter claim the Dems are fighting? If they indeed are that's good news! However, the "propaganda" I have been listening to says so far the Dems have been very weak.
What "pie-in-the-sky end result" are you talking about? If Biden gets to fill the seat next year it will hardly be someone the left loves, but at least it won't be as bad as Trump's nominees.
What is it that you think the Dems can actually do?
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 11:19:34 AM
Yes, healthcare costs money. For some reason some Americans are not willing to pay for single payer system, but are willing to pay much more for a for profit system. :P
The basic problem is that Americans aren't willing to subsidize the cost of OTHERS' health care - they're only willing to pay to the extent that they feel they will need it themselves. Healthy Americans aren't going to want to pay huge taxes to cover the cost of health care for people who need it more than they do.
QuoteBernie's plan? Every other developped country has figured this out DECADES ago. It is not that hard. It takes political will. That's it.
Bernie hasn't given a sensible accounting of exactly how his MFA will be paid for. And yes, other developed countries have found a way to make it work - but they don't have the rather selfish, individualistic culture that we do. They also pay less for things like prescriptions. I have no proof of this, but I've long suspected that we (Americans) subsidize the lower cost that they pay. Those profits then pay for extravagant marketing so that big pharma can make even more profits from (primarily) Americans, at our premium price.
QuoteYet they are fine with "corporate taxes" = premiums, co-pays and deductible.
They're fine with it as long as they can get away with paying what they think it's worth to them. Depending on their employer, many people have only a minuscule deduction from their paycheck toward health insurance. The plan generally sucks, even compared with what MFA would provide - but as long as they're healthy, they consider it acceptable.
QuoteYes, because the Republicans try to sabotage it. As I have Americans need to vote for the progressives and why not third party leftists into power to change the system so that social programs are properly funded (taxes for the rich are raised + military budget is cut). That's when the US has social democracy and life is better for most Americans. Jeff Bezos loses a few billion, but he will survive it.
If leftists gain significant power in this country, the backlash will unfortunately be huge. We have Trump, in large part, because we had a Black president before him. White Nationalism reared its ugly head in reaction. That's not the only reason, of course, but it may have tilted the scales just enough. Add to that a fatally flawed candidate (HRC) totally out of touch with middle America's problems (and contempt for the people in "flyover country"), and voila.
QuoteAgain, the rich do not pay enough taxes and the US military budget is insane. It could be cut in half and the US would still have the largest military in the World by far (and most large militaries in the World are US alleys to begin with). Also, the US has it's own currency and can print money as it actually did due to Covid-19 and a few trillions were given to the rich while the people got one time $1200 relief.
The belief that a government can incur whatever debt it wants as long as it can pay it off in its own currency (that it can print at will) is a very dangerous one and may well destroy this country IMO. And yes, we pay for our military by either borrowing the money... or by printing it. Both very poor options.
Quote from: drogulus on September 22, 2020, 11:49:10 AM
I'm in favor of the fiercest version of universal health care I can get, and if it has the kind of defensive moat a Medicare based plan will have, I'll be happy. If that's not feasible I'll go with the best option that is. I maintain my position that "howyougonna" verbiage is represents an attempt at psyching out the opposition, and that it succeeds sometimes as the targets begin to think it's coming from their own minds. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
The earliest it will be possible to get a good fix on the comparative feasibility of various plans is after the election. As a certified wizard I suggest the only chance for a Medicare based plan will involve a phased in approach that grandfathers in some private plans.
I get all that, but I don't know how it gets passed.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 01:36:22 PM
Bernie hasn't given a sensible accounting of exactly how his MFA will be paid for.
Hence, one description of Bernie's primary campaign as "The Children's Crusade."
Quote
If leftists gain significant power in this country, the backlash will unfortunately be huge.
A big reason why Obama/Biden moved so carefully, and reached across the aisle for the ACA, which, of course, our friend regards as "Democrats being afraid to use power."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 22, 2020, 02:10:04 PM
I get all that, but I don't know how it gets passed.
Japan has a system wherein big companies carry full time workers on one plan, and part-time or temporary workers have a different plan. Everyone contributes. Medicine is cheap. I'm on three types of migraine medicines that cost me about twenty dollars for three months. Each visit to the neurologist costs me about eight dollars. I haven't heard of long waits here but there are deficiencies; however, I suspect many of the drawbacks are due to cultural factors. I can see any Dr and change Drs and hospitals at will. We changed hospitals for my wife's pregnancy in the middle of it because we weren't satisfied with the hospital.
Japan has the highest debt in the developed world but this is because of rapid aging and declining population. It needs immigration. I think the Japanese are satisfied with healthcare. It's not really single-payer per se.
sadly,I don't think the US will ever adopt such a system. I'm glad I'm not there. Life is stressful enough without having to live with the fear of financial doom because of illness.
Quote from: milk on September 22, 2020, 02:33:53 PM
Japan has a system wherein big companies carry full time workers on one plan, and part-time or temporary workers have a different plan. Everyone contributes. Medicine is cheap. I'm on three types of migraine medicines that cost me about twenty dollars for three months. Each visit to the neurologist costs me about eight dollars. I haven't heard of long waits here but there are deficiencies; however, I suspect many of the drawbacks are due to cultural factors. I can see any Dr and change Drs and hospitals at will. We changed hospitals for my wife's pregnancy in the middle of it because we weren't satisfied with the hospital.
Japan has the highest debt in the developed world but this is because of rapid aging and declining population. It needs immigration. I think the Japanese are satisfied with healthcare. It's not really single-payer per se.
sadly,I don't think the US will ever adopt such a system. I'm glad I'm not there. Life is stressful enough without having to live with the fear of financial doom because of illness.
It will be interesting to see what Senator Sanders will propose; the hard left won't be happy with Biden's centrism, but that is the only realistic path.
Someone mentioned a backlash to the "Left". The backlash has been happening most of my life, starting with the backlash to the civil rights movement, Nixon in '68 with "Law and Order" and the Southern Strategy, Phyllis Schlafly and backlash against the ERA, the Reagan Revolution, the "Moral Majority", the rise of right wing radio, Newt Gingrich's Contract On America, Bush II, birtherism and the Tea Party. Trumpism is just a distillation of all that.
Quote from: Daverz on September 22, 2020, 03:42:52 PM
Someone mentioned a backlash to the "Left". The backlash has been happening most of my life, starting with the backlash to the civil rights movement, Nixon in '68 with "Law and Order" and the Southern Strategy, Phyllis Schlafly and backlash against the ERA, the Reagan Revolution, the "Moral Majority", the rise of right wing radio, Newt Gingrich's Contract On America, Bush II, birtherism and the Tea Party. Trumpism is just a distillation of all that.
All too true.
Howyougonna pay for Trump's health care plan?
Quote from: Daverz on September 22, 2020, 03:42:52 PM
Someone mentioned a backlash to the "Left". The backlash has been happening most of my life, starting with the backlash to the civil rights movement, Nixon in '68 with "Law and Order" and the Southern Strategy, Phyllis Schlafly and backlash against the ERA, the Reagan Revolution, the "Moral Majority", the rise of right wing radio, Newt Gingrich's Contract On America, Bush II, birtherism and the Tea Party. Trumpism is just a distillation of all that.
I forgot the whole nothingburger Whitewater thing and impeachment over a blow job. Probably blocked it out. And, OK, impeachment over lying about a blow job. It sounds so quaint and Victorian now.
Quote from: drogulus on September 22, 2020, 03:58:50 PM
Howyougonna pay for Trump's health care plan?
With your life, of course.
Quote from: drogulus on September 22, 2020, 03:58:50 PM
Howyougonna pay for Trump's health care plan?
The non-plan plan?
You pay for it with 300K American lives.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 01:36:22 PM
The basic problem is that Americans aren't willing to subsidize the cost of OTHERS' health care - they're only willing to pay to the extent that they feel they will need it themselves. Healthy Americans aren't going to want to pay huge taxes to cover the cost of health care for people who need it more than they do.
About 2/3 of Americans support Medicare for all so looks like a lot of people understand paying a little more in public taxes saves a lot of money on corporate taxes (premiums, co-pays and deductibles) and allows a better healthcare system. The claim that Americans aren't willing to subsidize the cost of OTHERS' health care is more of a corporate/right-wing talking point than reality.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 01:36:22 PMBernie hasn't given a sensible accounting of exactly how his MFA will be paid for.
The same way single payer healthcare is paid in my country: Taxes. There is no other way to finance a single payer system. Bernie has been totally open about this. You pay more public taxes and less corporate taxes. Most people save money in the process.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 01:36:22 PMAnd yes, other developed countries have found a way to make it work - but they don't have the rather selfish, individualistic culture that we do. They also pay less for things like prescriptions. I have no proof of this, but I've long suspected that we (Americans) subsidize the lower cost that they pay. Those profits then pay for extravagant marketing so that big pharma can make even more profits from (primarily) Americans, at our premium price.
Culture can change. If it can't then nothing can ever change. Do you want low public taxes and high corporate taxes or high public taxes and low corporate taxes? The latter saves you from potential bankrupt when you get sick. Your choice. Choose wisely. In other countries drugs are not marketed. It's illegal, because it doesn't make any sense. Your doctor says what drugs you take. There is no need to market anything! You take your pills because your doctor says you need to take them. Prices are regulated and get low for patients so people can afford them.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 01:36:22 PMThey're fine with it as long as they can get away with paying what they think it's worth to them. Depending on their employer, many people have only a minuscule deduction from their paycheck toward health insurance. The plan generally sucks, even compared with what MFA would provide - but as long as they're healthy, they consider it acceptable.
Yeah, if you are healthy you don't need healthcare, but you don't know what happens in the future. One day you have cancer and then you need healthcare. We don't know who gets cancer and who doesn't, but we can do risk pools. Everyone pays into it and whoever is unlucky gets the treatment needed. Kind of unlucky lottery.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 01:36:22 PMIf leftists gain significant power in this country, the backlash will unfortunately be huge. We have Trump, in large part, because we had a Black president before him. White Nationalism reared its ugly head in reaction. That's not the only reason, of course, but it may have tilted the scales just enough. Add to that a fatally flawed candidate (HRC) totally out of touch with middle America's problems (and contempt for the people in "flyover country"), and voila.
No, the US has Trump because the previous President wasn't the progressive he claimed to be, but a corporate hack who didn't do even public option, but originally a Republican healthcare plan. The oligarchs just make all of this look like a cultural war when it's a class war: The oligarchs against regular people. That's how they keep the working class devided and powerless.
You are totally right about Hillary being out of touch. She is part of the oligarchs Obama was.
Quote from: krummholz on September 22, 2020, 01:36:22 PMThe belief that a government can incur whatever debt it wants as long as it can pay it off in its own currency (that it can print at will) is a very dangerous one and may well destroy this country IMO. And yes, we pay for our military by either borrowing the money... or by printing it. Both very poor options.
The real dangers are elsewhere. Again, the debt is right-wing talking point to stop all proposals that would help regulat people. Can't do that. Can't do this. War? YES! Endless MONEY!!! The increase to military budget alone could pay for free college, but bombing brown people in the middle east is of course much more important than education.
Historically when Republicans are in power debt increases and when Democrats are in power debt decreases
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 04:54:04 PMThe increase to military budget alone could pay for free college
You clearly have no idea how much Americans spend on higher education.
Republicans will replace RBG but Democrats hold the trump cards – no, really
"America's political institutions are currently biased – in many cases quite aggressively – in favor of conservatives."
"Unless they never again win the House, Senate and White House simultaneously, the constitution gives Democrats plenty of ways to restore our democracy even without resorting to McConnellism or Trumpism. They can expand the electorate by restoring the Voting Rights Act, making voter registration universal, and passing comprehensive immigration reform. They can blunt (if not entirely offset) the GOP's Senate advantage by granting statehood, and two senators apiece, to Puerto Rico and Washington DC. They can undo the effects of McConnell's court-packing by expanding the bench – not just the supreme court, but lower courts as well."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/23/republicans-democrats-trump-mcconnell-ruth-bader-ginsburg-supreme-court
Quote from: Todd on September 22, 2020, 05:35:54 PM
You clearly have no idea how much Americans spend on higher education.
You are very quick to point out other people know nothing, but you never give any information to correct/educate us. You tell me how much. The figure I have from the "left-wing propaganda" channels is $60 billion per year while the increase to the military budget was something like $80 billion. Now, please fact check me and give me the real numbers or stop telling me I have no idea...
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 02:58:28 AM
You are very quick to point out other people know nothing, but you never give any information to correct/educate us. You tell me how much. The figure I have from the "left-wing propaganda" channels is $60 billion per year while the increase to the military budget was something like $80 billion. Now, please fact check me and give me the real numbers or stop telling me I have no idea...
People should do their own homework. The feds and the states publish much data. You need to stop relying on mush brained lefties for what you consider news. You won't.
Quote from: Todd on September 23, 2020, 03:45:19 AM
People should do their own homework. The feds and the states publish much data. You need to stop relying on mush brained lefties for what you consider news. You won't.
Still nothing from you except belittleling others. Here is a link (https://theintercept.com/2017/09/18/the-senates-military-spending-increase-alone-is-enough-to-make-public-college-free/) to support my claims, althou I have to admit I had my $60 billion figure a bit wrong since this article says $47 billion per year, but that just means the increase to military budget would pay for tuition free public colleges and universities even easier!
So, until you give some numbers or links to them I am to only one here showing some homework done.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 04:20:39 AMSo, until you give some numbers or links to them I am to only one here showing some homework done.
The NCES has different figures.
Quote from: NCESIn 2017–18, degree-granting postsecondary institutions in the United States spent $604 billion (in current dollars). Total expenses were $385 billion at public institutions, $207 billion at private nonprofit institutions, and $12 billion at private for-profit institutions.
You have absolutely no idea what you are going on about. At least the scribbler in the Intercept article mentioned tuition. You don't even understand the basics.
Quote from: Todd on September 23, 2020, 04:27:36 AM
The NCES has different figures.
You have absolutely no idea what you are going on about. At least the scribbler in the Intercept article mentioned tuition. You don't even understand the basics.
You are talking about Expenditures. I am talking about how much the students pay. Most of the expenditures come from the government (that's why they are PUBLIC schools). With the $47 billion per year 100 % of the expenditures would come from the government and students would pay nothing out of pocket (tuition free).
Anyway, thanks for finally giving something. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 04:54:04 PM
About 2/3 of Americans support Medicare for all so looks like a lot of people understand paying a little more in public taxes saves a lot of money on corporate taxes (premiums, co-pays and deductibles) and allows a better healthcare system.
Sorry, but that's a non sequitur. Yes, the majority of Americans want MFA - heck, *I* would like MFA - but that doesn't remotely imply that they understand anything about what it will take to actually pay for it. Which, as I implied in my last post, I strongly suspect will be a fair sight more than European taxpayers pay for their single-payer system, in part because we lack the leverage to negotiate an equally low price with big pharma.
QuoteThe claim that Americans aren't willing to subsidize the cost of OTHERS' health care is more of a corporate/right-wing talking point than reality.
In this country, too, highly partisan people call every argument they disagree with a "talking point" of the other side. It doesn't really advance the discussion to resort to that kind of rejoinder.
QuoteThe same way single payer healthcare is paid in my country: Taxes. There is no other way to finance a single payer system. Bernie has been totally open about this. You pay more public taxes and less corporate taxes. Most people save money in the process.
Yes, but Bernie's math has been widely disputed. The question is what level of public taxes would be required. My understanding is we're talking about double digit increases to the personal tax rate of most citizens. That is just not going to happen in this country. If we get MFA, it will be paid for by kicking the can down the road - not a road I want to see us take.
QuoteCulture can change. If it can't then nothing can ever change. Do you want low public taxes and high corporate taxes or high public taxes and low corporate taxes? The latter saves you from potential bankrupt when you get sick. Your choice. Choose wisely. In other countries drugs are not marketed. It's illegal, because it doesn't make any sense. Your doctor says what drugs you take. There is no need to market anything! You take your pills because your doctor says you need to take them. Prices are regulated and get low for patients so people can afford them.
Again, because of our free-market culture, things are very different here and are not likely to change soon. When today's college students are in control, in 20 years or so, then, maybe. Assuming the movement survives the inevitable backlash.
QuoteYeah, if you are healthy you don't need healthcare, but you don't know what happens in the future. One day you have cancer and then you need healthcare. We don't know who gets cancer and who doesn't, but we can do risk pools. Everyone pays into it and whoever is unlucky gets the treatment needed. Kind of unlucky lottery.
Exactly right, hence why single payer is the best system - IF you can make it work and IF you can pay for it. If you can't, then it's headed for insolvency, sooner or later.
QuoteNo, the US has Trump because the previous President wasn't the progressive he claimed to be, but a corporate hack who didn't do even public option, but originally a Republican healthcare plan. The oligarchs just make all of this look like a cultural war when it's a class war: The oligarchs against regular people. That's how they keep the working class devided and powerless.
Because he discovered that you can't be a full-out progressive and get anything done in government here. You have to compromise and build coalitions. Progress is always two steps forward, one (or 1.5) steps back. I don't want to even imagine the backlash if he had tried to push through a Bernie agenda (though I don't think he was originally THAT progressive anyway). What we have today is bad enough, and I think it would have largely happened had Obama been even more conservative.
QuoteThe real dangers are elsewhere. Again, the debt is right-wing talking point to stop all proposals that would help regulat people. Can't do that. Can't do this. War? YES! Endless MONEY!!! The increase to military budget alone could pay for free college, but bombing brown people in the middle east is of course much more important than education.
Historically when Republicans are in power debt increases and when Democrats are in power debt decreases
Your last sentence is correct. It doesn't matter which party is in power. But I disagree that the debt is anyone's talking point - it's real, it has to be paid off eventually, and countries that fail to pay it off end up in deep trouble. Anyone who thinks that can't happen here is IMO living in a dream world.
Edit: whoops, I misread. No, historically debt increases when Democrats are in power too. The exception in recent times was Clinton.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 04:40:30 AM
You are talking about Expenditures. I am talking about how much the students pay. Most of the expenditures come from the government (that's why they are PUBLIC schools). With the $47 billion per year 100 % of the expenditures would come from the government and students would pay nothing out of pocket (tuition free).
Anyway, thanks for finally giving something. ;)
You said free college, not tuition. There's a difference. You obviously did not look at the NCES site.
"Even after accepting disinformation from Russian agents, Johnson and Grassley couldn't come up with anything new or interesting on Hunter Biden."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 23, 2020, 05:07:54 AM
"Even after accepting disinformation from Russian agents, Johnson and Grassley couldn't come up with anything new or interesting on Hunter Biden."
The point of the investigation was the investigation, not anything it might "discover".
The US, EU and IMF wanted a Ukrainian prosecutor fired because he wasn't investigating corruption. If they all got roped into a scheme to protect Hunter Biden, I would like to know how the scheme was explained, in particular why it wouldn't be preferable to leave the guy in place.
Some time ago Sen. Johnson was awarded the Inhofe Prize for Outstanding Senatorial Intellect by a committee consisting of me.
Quote from: Todd on September 23, 2020, 04:44:56 AM
You said free college, not tuition. There's a difference. You obviously did not look at the NCES site.
Yes I did.
No tuition = free.
You try to muddy the waters.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 09:04:36 AM
Yes I did. No tuition = free
You keep harping on free education and free healthcare...
I am not opposed to single-payer, universal healthcare. I am not opposed to publicly financed education. I have them both in my own country What I am strongly oppoosed to is calling them free. They are not free at all but financed by taxes, ie everybody pays for them, to a greater or lesser extent.
Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2020, 09:23:12 AM
You keep harping on free education and free healthcare...
I am not opposed to single-payer, universal healthcare. I am not opposed to publicly financed education. I have them both in my own country What I am strongly oppoosed to is calling them free. They are not free at all but financed by taxes, ie everybody pays for them, to a greater or lesser extent.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 23, 2020, 09:45:16 AM
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
ees = ei edes suomessa
(assuming Google Translate is correct).
IDMATIIAGTS 8)
Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2020, 09:23:12 AM
You keep harping on free education and free healthcare...
I am not opposed to single-payer, universal healthcare. I am not opposed to publicly financed education. I have them both in my own country What I am strongly oppoosed to is calling them free. They are not free at all but financed by taxes, ie everybody pays for them, to a greater or lesser extent.
The correct term is
"free at the point of use". You don't pay the doctor when you see him/her. You just keep paying taxes.
Free at the point of use healthcare.
Free at the point of use education.
Quote from: MN Dave on September 23, 2020, 09:59:37 AM
IDMATIIAGTS 8)
It doesn't matter a thing if I ain't got tight shoes?
Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2020, 09:48:53 AM
ees = ei edes suomessa
(assuming Google Translate is correct).
It is, althou using capital letters it's
Ei edes Suomessa.
Ei = not
edes = even
Suomi = Finland
-ssa = in
i =>
e =
"Complexity of Finnish grammar." >:D
Quote from: MN Dave on September 23, 2020, 09:59:37 AM
IDMATIIAGTS 8)
I Did the Math! Actually 'Tis Insanely Incredible! Anything Goes! This Sucks!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 10:27:54 AM
Suomi = Finland
-ssa = in
i => e =
Ah, yes, the joy of the agglutinative languages. :D
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 09:04:36 AM
Yes I did.
No tuition = free.
You try to muddy the waters.
No, I am pointing out that you do not know the subject you are writing about. I suggest you look at the NCES site and see some of the other costs associated with college, some of them rather substantial, that directly impact students. "Free" tuition - ie, fully taxpayer subsidized tuition - is not even close to the same thing as free college.
It also doesn't matter; fully taxpayer subsidized tuition isn't going to happen.
Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2020, 10:36:01 AM
Ah, yes, the joy of the agglutinative languages. :D
"Lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas" is said to be the longest Finnish word at 61 letters, however that is arguable because you could make up any word you wanted in Finnish really.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:03:44 AM
"Lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas" is said to be the longest Finnish word at 61 letters, however that is arguable because you could make up any word you wanted in Finnish really.
What does it mean?
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:03:44 AM
"Lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas" is said to be the longest Finnish word at 61 letters, however that is arguable because you could make up any word you wanted in Finnish really.
What would you say is the longest word in frequent use? (I've never heard "antidisestablishmentarianism" used in actual discourse....
Quote from: Todd on September 23, 2020, 11:01:32 AM
No, I am pointing out that you do not know the subject you are writing about. I suggest you look at the NCES site and see some of the other costs associated with college, some of them rather substantial, that directly impact students. "Free" tuition - ie, fully taxpayer subsidized tuition - is not even close to the same thing as free college.
It also doesn't matter; fully taxpayer subsidized tuition isn't going to happen.
You mean the students need to pay for food and accommodation? Yes, that happens even in Finland, but then again you need to pay for those whether you study or not. Anyway, it's clear if the 80 billion increase to military budget was instead "dumped" to public higher education the tuition frees would be zero or much lower they are now.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:09:13 AM
You mean the students need to pay for food and accommodation? Yes, that happens even in Finland, but then again you need to pay for those whether you study or not.
Then your confusion is odd.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:09:13 AMAnyway, it's clear if the 80 billion increase to military budget was instead "dumped" to public higher education the tuition frees would be zero or much lower they are now.
It would not be free, and national security and college tuition are not interchangeable.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 23, 2020, 11:08:20 AM
What would you say is the longest word in frequent use? (I've never heard "antidisestablishmentarianism" used in actual discourse....
Words such as Peruspalveluliikelaitoskuntayhtymä = "a public utility of a municipal federation for provision of basic services" are used in politics. In engineering field you can see words such as Kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari = "three-phase electricity meter", but in casual language words rarely get much longer than Jauhelihakeitto = "minced meat soup".
Quote from: Florestan on September 23, 2020, 11:07:58 AM
What does it mean?
Airplane jet turbine engine auxiliary mechanic non-commissioned officer student. ;D
Quote from: drogulus on September 23, 2020, 06:50:46 AM
The point of the investigation was the investigation, not anything it might "discover".
The US, EU and IMF wanted a Ukrainian prosecutor fired because he wasn't investigating corruption. If they all got roped into a scheme to protect Hunter Biden, I would like to know how the scheme was explained, in particular why it wouldn't be preferable to leave the guy in place.
Some time ago Sen. Johnson was awarded the Inhofe Prize for Outstanding Senatorial Intellect by a committee consisting of me.
GOP's Hunter Biden probe digs up dirt on... Rick Perry's ties to Ukrainian gas deals .. whoops!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:20:09 AM
but in casual language words rarely get much longer than Jauhelihakeitto = "minced meat soup".
Kiitos.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:20:09 AM
Words such as Peruspalveluliikelaitoskuntayhtymä = "a public utility of a municipal federation for provision of basic services" are used in politics.
Of course, politics is all about mumbo jumbo. ;D
QuoteAirplane jet turbine engine auxiliary mechanic non-commissioned officer student. ;D
Nonsense on stilts, ie politics. ;D
Quote from: Todd on September 23, 2020, 11:13:47 AM
It would not be free, and national security and college tuition are not interchangeable.
Are you seriously thinking China would have invaded Texas without the 80 billion raise to military budget?
Countries with the biggest defence budgets in 2019
1. United States of America - $717bn
2. China - $177bn
3. India - $60.9bn
4. Germany - $53bn
5. Saudi Arabia - $51bn
6. United Kingdom - $49bn
7. France - $48bn
8. Japan - $47bn
9. Russia - $46.4bn
10. South Korea - $42bn
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:29:45 AM
Are you seriously thinking China would have invaded Texas without the 80 billion raise to military budget?
Countries with the biggest defence budgets in 2019
1. United States of America - $717bn
2. China - $177bn
3. India - $60.9bn
4. Germany - $53bn
5. Saudi Arabia - $51bn
6. United Kingdom - $49bn
7. France - $48bn
8. Japan - $47bn
9. Russia - $46.4bn
10. South Korea - $42bn
An odd post, even for you.
Another bad day for the Trump Crime Family.
Eric Trump CANNOT delay his deposition
until after election.
"This court finds [Eric Trump's] application unpersuasive," Justice Engoran says, noting his is "not bound by the timelines of the election."
Privileged jackass.
Quote from: Todd on September 23, 2020, 11:31:41 AM
An odd post, even for you.
You said "national security and college tuition are not interchangeable." implying you cannot take care of national security if you transfer money, say the $80 billion increase from defense to remove college tuition.
If you take away $80 bn from $717 bn, $637 bn remains. A country with $177 bn defense budget needs serious balls to attack a country with $637 bn defense budget, especially when most of the other countries on that top 10 list are it's alleys.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 11:52:43 AM
You said "national security and college tuition are not interchangeable." implying you cannot take care of national security if you transfer money, say the $80 billion increase from defense to remove college tuition. If the ability to keep the nation secure remains after the money tranfer there is no interchangeability.
If you take away $80 bn from $717 bn, $637 bn remains. A country with $177 bn defense budget needs serious balls to attack a country with $637 bn defense budget, especially when most of the other countries on that top 10 list are it's alleys.
National security and college tuition are not interchangeable. I hope that helps.
.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 23, 2020, 11:42:04 AM
Privileged jackass.
To be fair he couldn't choose not to be priviledged, but he could have chosen not to be a jackass. ::)
52-57 minute mark explains perfectly the futility of online discussion (especially as in this thread)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEZvmvEQN9Q&ab_channel=TentacleCroissant
Just wanted to share :P
oh btw... to whoever is reading, how often do you beat your wife?
Quote from: Todd on September 23, 2020, 11:53:40 AM
National security and college tuition are not interchangeable. I hope that helps.
Sorry, your right-wing echo-chamber phrases don't help me nor you. The way the goverment spends money is up to
priorities. Defense budget has MUCH higher priority than education in the US, because regular people struggling to pay off their student loan debts didn't bribe the politicians. The military industry complex did.
Wow to the HONK post Karl! ???
(unless it's fake)
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2020, 12:06:42 PM
Sorry, your right-wing echo-chamber phrases don't help me nor you. The way the goverment spends money is up to priorities. Defense budget has MUCH higher priority than education in the US, because regular people struggling to pay off their student loan debts didn't bribe the politicians. The military industry complex did.
It didn't help. Oh well.
Quote from: Dowder on September 23, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
We need to focus on vocational training and careers for people instead that will help them earn a good living.
I agree. There won't be composers or performers. Wonderful nation.
Quote from: greg on September 23, 2020, 12:01:20 PM
futility of online discussion (especially as in this thread)
It works for me. I just finished reading the Stanford Philosophy Encyclopedia entry on "The Meaning of Life". I swear I'm not joking. It even referenced Ayer's book of the same title. He, of course, was.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Consider also that a praying mantis can swivel its head, and has excellent stereoscopic vision. It's the only insect that can look at you just like you look at it. What is futility compared to that?
Not just here but I have many conservative friends in the music world and who I play with who embrace an agenda that stifles the growth of classical music.
A longish article from The Atlantic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere already, but I highlight one section that was new to me:
The Election That Could Break America
If the vote is close, Donald Trump could easily throw the election into chaos and subvert the result. Who will stop him? (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/)
[...]"Just under a year ago, Justin Clark gave a closed-door talk in Wisconsin to a select audience of Republican lawyers. He thought he was speaking privately, but someone had brought a recording device. He had a lot to say about Election Day operations, or "EDO."
At the time, Clark was a senior lieutenant with Trump's reelection campaign; in July, he was promoted to deputy campaign manager. "Wisconsin's the state that is going to tip this one way or the other ... So it makes EDO really, really, really important," he said. He put the mission bluntly: "Traditionally it's always been Republicans suppressing votes ... [Democrats'] voters are all in one part of the state, so let's start playing offense a little bit. And that's what you're going to see in 2020. That's what's going to be markedly different. It's going to be a much bigger program, a much more aggressive program, a much better-funded program, and we're going to need all the help we can get." (Clark later claimed that his remarks had been misconstrued, but his explanation made no sense in context.)
Of all the favorable signs for Trump's Election Day operations, Clark explained, "first and foremost is the consent decree's gone." He was referring to a court order forbidding Republican operatives from using any of a long list of voter-purging and intimidation techniques. The expiration of that order was a "huge, huge, huge, huge deal," Clark said.
His audience of lawyers knew what he meant. The 2020 presidential election will be the first in 40 years to take place without a federal judge requiring the Republican National Committee to seek approval in advance for any "ballot security" operations at the polls. In 2018, a federal judge allowed the consent decree to expire, ruling that the plaintiffs had no proof of recent violations by Republicans. The consent decree, by this logic, was not needed, because it worked.
The order had its origins in the New Jersey gubernatorial election of 1981. According to the district court's opinion in Democratic National Committee v. Republican National Committee, the RNC allegedly tried to intimidate voters by hiring off-duty law-enforcement officers as members of a "National Ballot Security Task Force," some of them armed and carrying two-way radios. According to the plaintiffs, they stopped and questioned voters in minority neighborhoods, blocked voters from entering the polls, forcibly restrained poll workers, challenged people's eligibility to vote, warned of criminal charges for casting an illegal ballot, and generally did their best to frighten voters away from the polls. The power of these methods relied on well-founded fears among people of color about contact with police.
This year, with a judge no longer watching, the Republicans are recruiting 50,000 volunteers in 15 contested states to monitor polling places and challenge voters they deem suspicious-looking. Trump called in to Fox News on August 20 to tell Sean Hannity, "We're going to have sheriffs and we're going to have law enforcement and we're going to have, hopefully, U.S. attorneys" to keep close watch on the polls. For the first time in decades, according to Clark, Republicans are free to combat voter fraud in "places that are run by Democrats."[...]
"Get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very peaceful — there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation," the president said," as reported by various media. It's on the record.
Let's just get rid of elections.
The only way the elections will not end in chaos, violence and Trump claiming some strange form of victory is when Biden clearly wins Florida, which is going to be very difficult, and gets a five million plus popular vote advantage.
Neither is likely to happen, also because these things can be doctored.
Quote from: Dowder on September 23, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
Way too many people go to school to get worthless degrees or flunk out. We need to focus on vocational training and careers for people instead that will help them earn a good living. Just offering free college tuition without any conditions for what you should have to study in order to go to school for free won't make society any better.
I try to hear all sides:
EDUCATION
Why Does the Left Hate the Humanities?
Tell-tale signs of decadence reveal that it's time for the Humanities (again).
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/09/higher-education-why-left-hates-humanties/
I won't quote from it. But I'm on the left and I think we do need more education in the humanities. Please excuse a meandering digression on liberal humanism but I think the critical theory that's animated universities and much of the thinking of today's left is a departure from mainstream progressivism. "Cultural Studies" was coming in the door as I was going out the door of undergraduate university. It's a nice sounding name for Marxism, Post Modernism and Critical Theory.
Here's my digression in the form of a dialogue between an interviewer named Robert Harrison and the philosopher Richard Rorty.
Harrison: What do you mean that the rest of the world should become a lot more like America? Would it be desirable to have all the various cultures across the globe Americanize? Would that not entail some sort of loss at least at the level of diversity or certain wisdoms that go back through their own particular traditions. What would be lost in the Americanization or Norwegianization of the world?
Rorty: A great deal would be lost. A great deal was lost when the Roman Empire suppressed a lot of native cultures. A great deal was lost when the Han Empire in China suppressed a lot of native cultures [...]. Whenever there's a rise in a great power a lot of great cultures get suppressed. That's the price we pay for history.
Harrison: Well here I'm going to speak in my own proper voice and to really disagree in this sense: that I think governments and forms of government are the result of a whole host of contingent geographical historical factors whereby western bourgeois liberalism or democracy arose through a whole set of circumstances that played themselves out over time, and I think that [there is in] America a certain set of presumptions that our form of democracy is infinitely exportable ... [and] that we can just take this model of American democracy and make it work elsewhere. I think experience has shown us that it's not that easy.
Rorty: We can't make it work elsewhere but people coming to our country and finding out how things are done in the democratic west can go back and try to imitate that in their own countries. They've often done so with considerable success. I was very impressed on a visit to Guangzhou to see a replica of the statue of Liberty in one of the city parks. It was built by the first generation of Chinese students to visit America when they got back. They built a replica of the Statue of Liberty in order to help to try to explain to the other Chinese what was so great about the country they'd come back from. And remember that a replica of the Statue of Liberty was carried by the students in Tiananmen Square.
Harrison (agitated): Well OK but that's one way. What if you... Why can't we go to China and see a beautiful statue of the Buddha or something, and understand equally – have a moment of enlightenment and bring that statue back and say that we have something to learn from this other culture out there. And why is the statue of liberty the final transcend[ant] – you say yourself as a philosopher that you don't – that there are no absolutes and that part of the misunderstanding in the history of philosophy is that there are no absolutes. It sounds like that for you the Statue of Liberty is an absolute.
Rorty: How about it's the best thing anybody has come up with so far. It's done more for humanity than the Buddha ever did. And it gives us something that ... [interrupted]
Harrison: How can we know that!?
Rorty: From history.
Harrison: Well, for example, what do we know about the happiness of the Buddhist cultures from the inside? Can we really know from the outside that we're happier than they are?
Rorty: I suspect so. We've all had experiences in moving around from culture to culture. They're not closed off entities, opaque to outsiders. You can talk to people raised in lots of different places about how happy they are and what they'd like.Im sure this conversation is unsafe and Rorty would be cancelled if he were alive. That's no joke! I think Rorty also said America should be more like Sweden if that makes anyone feel better.
Quote from: Dowder on September 23, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
Way too many people go to school to get worthless degrees or flunk out. We need to focus on vocational training and careers for people instead that will help them earn a good living. Just offering free college tuition without any conditions for what you should have to study in order to go to school for free won't make society any better.
Of course it would make society better. Millions of young people who wouldn't begin their adult lives with crippling student loan debt could escape years of rent slavery and instead gain equity in housing, invest their money, or use it to start business ventures. It would remove a massive block to economic progress.
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 12:13:03 AM
I try to hear all sides:
EDUCATION
Why Does the Left Hate the Humanities?
Tell-tale signs of decadence reveal that it's time for the Humanities (again).
I'm neither on the Left nor the Right, but I'm not sure the premise of that article is even correct. The Left hates the humanities? What is the evidence for that? And at least one of the statements in that piece I would strenuously disagree with: "For science, the end justifies the means." Wholly untrue. It might be that for certain scientists, the end justifies the means. For others, it does not. Science is neutral on the question: it is, first and foremost, an approach to investigating phenomena occurring in the world.
I'm afraid I don't feel the tension between Science and the Humanities that some feel. In particular, the explosion in both realms that characterised the Western Renaissance and Enlightenment, in some cases by the same individuals (e.g. Da Vinci) is evidence IMO that this tension is not necessary. I hesitate to say that it is a product of modern thinking, but it has certainly taken root in modern times and IMO is one of the main causes of our current dislocation and dissociation from ourselves and each other.
In this time of COVID, we need both science and the humanities more than ever. We do NOT need to choose, or to emphasize one over the other.
The point is that for "free college" the whole system would have to change. It cannot be the solution that the government simply pays outrageous tuitions. In the countries with free college, access is usually more limited (until fairly recently in a country like Germany it was de facto limited to about one third of a cohort, the rest entering vocational training or some other kind of training less academic than college/university) and almost all universities and colleges are run by the government so the costs are not as outrageous as in some American Elite universities.
I think one problem in the development of the "left" in the last 100 years that also connects to what milk wrote above is roughly the following: Back then the idea was to give equal dignity and pride to the persons who do manual or even menial work and give them fair wages and enough spare time chances to enjoy arts, music etc., so they would get closer to the bourgeoisie and elite of that time and eventually these societal differences would disappear. (The East German flag had hammer and compass to represent the workers with brawn and those with brains). But instead of this since the 60s/70s they a) kept lowering the standards to make prep schools and university access easier, so many more people got some kind of degree but its value, especially in social sciences, humanities etc. was doubtful and b) instead of "elevating" the lower/middle classes to appreciate and enjoy elite culture they denigrated it and let the culture industry cover everything with popular culture. So we have poorly (except for some technical/scientific skills in the narow sense) educated people who are similar in their lowbrow tastes and kept stimulated by video games, Netflix etc. And the dignity and appreciation of manual/menial work is probably worse than ever.
(Of course there are many hard economic factors that also contributed to this. But I think the way a good idea was perverted in the development of the educational system is overlooked.)
Quote from: Jo498 on September 24, 2020, 03:52:05 AM
But instead of this since the 60s/70s they a) kept lowering the standards to make prep schools and university access easier, so many more people got some kind of degree but its value, especially in social sciences, humanities etc. was doubtful and b) instead of "elevating" the lower/middle classes to appreciate and enjoy elite culture they denigrated it and let the culture industry cover everything with popular culture.
Question. Who are "they" in these sentences?
I'm asking because virtually everybody seems to take for granted there is some sinister plot regarding higher education.
Have a look at these books:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1324001879/?coliid=I37AX98JYWIOXV&colid=3RRQEIC2651D2&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1324001879/?coliid=I37AX98JYWIOXV&colid=3RRQEIC2651D2&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51T01Sg2HIL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1523091584/?coliid=I25SC16W30LE47&colid=3RRQEIC2651D2&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1523091584/?coliid=I25SC16W30LE47&colid=3RRQEIC2651D2&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Rh7P4oH4L._SX355_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HYMBW44/?coliid=I3ESCYHA35HGEF&colid=3RRQEIC2651D2&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HYMBW44/?coliid=I3ESCYHA35HGEF&colid=3RRQEIC2651D2&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51xPmEUQYkL.jpg)
Also check Hartman's other books in his series.
The oligarchs are in power. Just like with Putin in Russia.
Only the guys on the top of the pyramid know how things run, ordinary people just live the lies of these men. Fortunately some authors investigate.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 24, 2020, 03:52:05 AMalmost all universities and colleges are run by the government so the costs are not as outrageous as in some American Elite universities.
Elite schools are almost all private. I do not recall anyone stating that taxpayers should fully subsidize tuition at universities like Harvard or Princeton. Many of them have large endowments that help cover student tuition in many cases, anyway. Taxpayer subsidized tuition would apply to state schools.
Individual states already subsidize schools to some extent, as do the Feds, and coming up with a formula that would more equitably distribute federal funds to the states would be the trick if anyone were serious about federally funded tuition. That's one of the critical, more difficult political problems. This would be another case where differences in state behavior would act as a block to federal action. States that more generously subsidize post-secondary education may very well (meaning definitely) balk at the notion that less generous states get more federal money. Fully taxpayer subsidized tuition dies in the Senate.
Quote from: Herman on September 24, 2020, 03:59:27 AMI'm asking because virtually everybody seems to take for granted there is some sinister plot regarding higher education.
You are the only person who mentioned a "sinister plot". That's silly.
American public and private schools have virtually the same kind of financing, consisting of a mix of private and state funding. Private schools like Harvards and MITs get large amounts of federal money to conduct long term research projects, often for defense purposes. So even education and defense are not two different money streams; the converge often.
This I was my understanding in the nineties, when I worked at a US university, people told me this.
Chances are things have shifted a little since inequality has increased and donors have even more money to offload on their alma mater in exchange for tax benefits. But the gist was and is that private universities use a lot of tax payer money, too.
Quote from: Herman on September 24, 2020, 04:54:37 AMThis I was my understanding in the nineties, when I worked at a US university, people told me this.
You obviously misunderstood what you were told.
Quote from: Henk on September 24, 2020, 04:20:04 AMThe oligarchs are in power. Just like with Putin in Russia.
Only the guys on the top of the pyramid know how things run, ordinary people just live the lies of these men. Fortunately some authors investigate.
Pretty much all it does is to realize the whole mainstream media in the US is primarily serving the top 1 % meaning you better not believe almost anything they say. Sure, sometimes they might tell something truthful (they do after all sometimes hire good people), but the majority of the time they are about manufacturing consent in order to maintain the status quo. MSNBC is not your friend if you are a left-leaning regular person. The Fox News is not your friend if you are right-learning regular person. MSM is not your friend unless you belong to the "ruling class." Your friends are found in the non-mainstream media. Thom Hartmann (https://www.youtube.com/user/thomhartmann) is your friend just to mention one.
Quote from: Herman on September 24, 2020, 04:54:37 AM
American public and private schools have virtually the same kind of financing, consisting of a mix of private and state funding. Private schools like Harvards and MITs get large amounts of federal money to conduct long term research projects, often for defense purposes. So even education and defense are not two different money streams; the converge often.
This I was my understanding in the nineties, when I worked at a US university, people told me this.
Chances are things have shifted a little since inequality has increased and donors have even more money to offload on their alma mater in exchange for tax benefits. But the gist was and is that private universities use a lot of tax payer money, too.
Medical research to create new drugs is also done in universities with tax payer money and then comes Big Pharma and takes the know how and starts price gouging Americans selling them those drugs asking insane prices. That's corporate socialism at it's finest and Americans have been brainwashed to think it's just how "capitalism" works. No, in real capitalism Big Pharma would have needed to use it's OWN money to develop the drugs without one penny of tax payer money.
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2020, 05:19:47 AM
Fresh from 1988.
It has stayed fresh because Americans have been too ignorant to do almost anything about it for decades!
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2020, 05:28:04 AM
It has stayed fresh because Americans have been too ignorant to do almost anything about it.
There is also the possibility that the thesis is not entirely correct. Among other things.
Out of curiosity, do you also subscribe to Chomsky's idea that Europe is more racist than the US?
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2020, 04:59:09 AM
You obviously misunderstood what you were told.
No I did not, because obviously I talked about this with other people in university administration and they confirmed this.
I always check things.
Not everybody is as dumb, negative and passive as you, who only lives to snipe at people online.
Quote from: Herman on September 24, 2020, 05:30:30 AMNot everybody is as dumb, negative and passive as you, who only lives to snipe at people online.
There we go!
Quote from: krummholz on September 24, 2020, 03:39:51 AM
I'm neither on the Left nor the Right, but I'm not sure the premise of that article is even correct. The Left hates the humanities? What is the evidence for that? And at least one of the statements in that piece I would strenuously disagree with: "For science, the end justifies the means." Wholly untrue. It might be that for certain scientists, the end justifies the means. For others, it does not. Science is neutral on the question: it is, first and foremost, an approach to investigating phenomena occurring in the world.
I'm afraid I don't feel the tension between Science and the Humanities that some feel. In particular, the explosion in both realms that characterised the Western Renaissance and Enlightenment, in some cases by the same individuals (e.g. Da Vinci) is evidence IMO that this tension is not necessary. I hesitate to say that it is a product of modern thinking, but it has certainly taken root in modern times and IMO is one of the main causes of our current dislocation and dissociation from ourselves and each other.
In this time of COVID, we need both science and the humanities more than ever. We do NOT need to choose, or to emphasize one over the other.
I think it's a common refrain from conservatives that science equates with the way it can be used in the worse cases. I also find it suspect because I think they're trying to smuggle in the necessity for Christian morality. But, I do think they're onto something about humanities - it means the classics generally, including the study of history by various "objective" methods. When I was out the door of university, the "cultural studies" graduate program was coming in. I was young and knew nothing and those graduate students were into Foucault and proclaiming their Marxism in a calculated but nonchalant manner. I had a history professor named Kopf that I really liked and I remember that he really complained about it like it was replacing history. I thought, "it's all heading in the same direction, isn't it?" But critical theory, and the like, is really a different world view than liberal humanism, which is the foundation of the humanities I think.
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2020, 05:29:37 AM
Out of curiosity, do you also subscribe to Chomsky's idea that Europe is more racist than the US?
I am not familiar with those ideas of Chomsky, but it's totally possible Europe is more racist than the US. Racism is in fact one of the only things I am ashamed of about my own country. Finland is not the most racist country in the World (South Africa is), but even here it is a problem and we do have our own xenophobic populistic party, the True Finns. Yuck! :-\
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2020, 05:49:22 AMFinland is not the most racist country in the World (South Africa is)
I was unaware racism could be ranked in such a manner. I learned something new today.
Anyway, here's Chomsky in a Q&A on the subject. It's on YouTube, so it's legit:
https://www.youtube.com/v/KftHGpJjPBo
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 23, 2020, 06:19:48 PM
I agree. There won't be composers or performers. Wonderful nation.
In this era, what is even the point of going to school for music? Everything you need to know is available online.
I'm glad I never went to school for music. I can make more than enough money at 40 hours/week by
not choosing music as my major to afford my expensive music hobby. And have time left over for that. If I went to school for music, I'd be working 80 hours a week at soul-crushing low tier jobs to pay off my debt, and ironically, not have time to write music, defeating the entire point.
I really don't think anyone should get in debt for a degree that has a low, or nonexistent ROI. Loans shouldn't even be an option. You can do it if you're rich and want to. Otherwise, online education is just as good.
Also, one thing that music school doesn't teach is how to have good creative instinct. You can learn all about every single aspect of music theory, but if you don't have good creative instinct, it's not going to turn out well.
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 05:45:39 AM
I think it's a common refrain from conservatives that science equates with the way it can be used in the worse cases.
It's common on the left, and not just the illiberal left.
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 05:45:39 AM
But critical theory, and the like, is really a different world view than liberal humanism, which is the foundation of the humanities I think.
The assault on liberal humanism comes from both the left and right. Both sides are hostile to science, where liberal humanism still flourishes.
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 05:45:39 AM
I think it's a common refrain from conservatives that science equates with the way it can be used in the worse cases. I also find it suspect because I think they're trying to smuggle in the necessity for Christian morality. But, I do think they're onto something about humanities - it means the classics generally, including the study of history by various "objective" methods. When I was out the door of university, the "cultural studies" graduate program was coming in. I was young and knew nothing and those graduate students were into Foucault and proclaiming their Marxism in a calculated but nonchalant manner. I had a history professor named Kopf that I really liked and I remember that he really complained about it like it was replacing history. I thought, "it's all heading in the same direction, isn't it?" But critical theory, and the like, is really a different world view than liberal humanism, which is the foundation of the humanities I think.
Yes, that's an odd twist. When I was growing up, it was mostly environmentalists - who are (were) by and large left of center politically - who equated science with the worst crimes against nature and humanity perpetrated with its help.
I guess I agree that humanities as taught today has largely thrown out the classics in favor of a post-modern approach. And that the folks responsible are predominantly on the left. So clearly it depends on how you define "the humanities". Left-leaning media certainly don't give short shrift to art of all kinds, including music - NPR here in the US frequently has shows featuring interviewers with musicians all across the spectrum.
I also agree with the National Review piece that exposure to ideas on all sides of the spectrum in universities today has been largely thwarted by e.g. allowing students veto power over guest speakers with views deemed offensive. That's something I consider to be inconsistent with the goal of a university to teach students to think critically. I'm lucky in that I teach in a STEM field, so I rarely see that in my day to day life here, but I know that it's quite real.
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2020, 06:02:44 AM
I was unaware racism could be ranked in such a manner. I learned something new today.
Anyway, here's Chomsky in a Q&A on the subject. It's on YouTube, so it's legit:
https://www.youtube.com/v/KftHGpJjPBo
Anything can be ranked. I heard the claim that South Africa is the most racist country in the World from a smart South African Youtuber who studied physics in Finland in University for a year. The whites and blacks REALLY hate each other in South Africa so this claim makes sense.
Maybe I check out the video, but now I go to sauna.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2020, 08:49:21 AMAnything can be ranked.
It has been written on GMG, therefore it is true.
Quote from: krummholz on September 24, 2020, 08:35:38 AM
I guess I agree that humanities as taught today has largely thrown out the classics in favor of a post-modern approach. And that the folks responsible are predominantly on the left. So clearly it depends on how you define "the humanities". Left-leaning media certainly don't give short shrift to art of all kinds, including music - NPR here in the US frequently has shows featuring interviewers with musicians all across the spectrum.
Is your idea that 'the classics have been thrown out' based on first hand knowledge?
Are you a college student, or a professor in a college?
Or is this some hearsay story?
The classics (always a moving target) are still on the curriculum; the only thing that's changed is the generation of professors in tweed who used to say Huck Finn was a fine fellow and Keats' poetry is 'all you need to know', i.e. the kind of Dead Poets' Society professor who tells you how to live your life has long retired and just like there's a different generation of undergraduates, there is a different generation of professors. Though for all I know there are still some Dead Poets' Society professors out there, too.
Your observation that liberal folks tend to be more interested in books and the arts ought to have given you some pause.
Quote from: Herman on September 24, 2020, 03:59:27 AM
Question. Who are "they" in these sentences?
No, I don't believe in a sinister plot and maybe school education has suffered more than university. I am a fan of the idea that stupidity is usually sufficient and no evil motives. In education it is obviously more complicated. People correctly thought that more education was generally good and also that there should not be unfair exclusion of "lower classes" from higher ed, and in the 60s it was also true that for economical reasons more people with university degrees (or other qualified educations) were needed. But in many cases the baby was thrown out with the bathwater by zealous or overtaxed bureaucrats and/or by pedagogy professors with very little teaching/classroom experience. All of it was also informed by false anthropology, i.e. all nurture and almost no nature. So it is a host of factors and bad combinations of factors. There might be great models for "integrating" children with learning disabilities or other challenges that work in small groups with additional teaching personnel but utterly fail when transferred to larger classes and lack of money for additional teachers etc. Then there is a very simple low hanging fruit phenomenon. When a country starts with 5-10% or so of a cohort with a college or advanced degree in the 60s there are probably benefits in doubling or tripling that percentage. But when this has been achieved after a generation one has got almost all who are capable of attaining a degree. Doubling the number again will be a bad move because it destroys the value of such degrees by making them too easy to get and so employers will look for additional qualifications. And the latter will usually be far more unfairly distributed in a population than the degrees were a generation earlier because exchange years in the US or internships with daddies cronies law firm or whatever are by nature unequally distributed.
Quote from: greg on September 24, 2020, 06:29:05 AM
In this era, what is even the point of going to school for music? Everything you need to know is available online.
I'm glad I never went to school for music. I can make more than enough money at 40 hours/week by not choosing music as my major to afford my expensive music hobby. And have time left over for that. If I went to school for music, I'd be working 80 hours a week at soul-crushing low tier jobs to pay off my debt, and ironically, not have time to write music, defeating the entire point.
I really don't think anyone should get in debt for a degree that has a low, or nonexistent ROI. Loans shouldn't even be an option. You can do it if you're rich and want to. Otherwise, online education is just as good.
Also, one thing that music school doesn't teach is how to have good creative instinct. You can learn all about every single aspect of music theory, but if you don't have good creative instinct, it's not going to turn out well.
The fact that you didn't go to school for music is pretty obvious from the second sentence of your post. If you think all a serious student of music needs can be found online, you clearly have no idea about what goes on in music schools and conservatories.
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2020, 09:02:12 AM
It has been written on GMG, therefore it is true.
Rankings can be just someone's subjective opinions such as "my top 10 composers are..."
Quote from: Herman on September 24, 2020, 09:11:08 AM
Your observation that liberal folks tend to be more interested in books and the arts ought to have given you some pause.
Keynes, a philosopher and social theorist who made a contribution to economics, thought that it would be good if workers had the leisure to appreciate life the way he did. He hypothesized that if the working class had the opportunity to assume the values associated with middle class aspirations, the opportunity would not be wasted. Keynes didn't live long enough to see his idea vindicated on a massive scale.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2020, 09:48:30 AM
Rankings can be just someone's subjective opinions such as "my top 10 composers are..."
Interesting.
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2020, 09:52:56 AM
Interesting.
Isn't it? The word "ranking" isn't a synonym for "scientifically proven fact."
Quote from: Herman on September 24, 2020, 09:11:08 AM
Is your idea that 'the classics have been thrown out' based on first hand knowledge?
Are you a college student, or a professor in a college?
Or is this some hearsay story?
The classics (always a moving target) are still on the curriculum; the only thing that's changed is the generation of professors in tweed who used to say Huck Finn was a fine fellow and Keats' poetry is 'all you need to know', i.e. the kind of Dead Poets' Society professor who tells you how to live your life has long retired and just like there's a different generation of undergraduates, there is a different generation of professors. Though for all I know there are still some Dead Poets' Society professors out there, too.
Your observation that liberal folks tend to be more interested in books and the arts ought to have given you some pause.
I'm a professor in a college - but NOT in a humanities field (as I said), so my viewpoint may not be valid. What I wrote was my impression from readings from many sources. Maybe my statement was too strong - I agree the classics haven't been completely "thrown out", but everything I've seen in the past 20 years or so (including at my current university, from a perusal of the catalog over the last 6 years) is that postmodernism has become a strong influence on the curriculum.
I don't see how that is inconsistent with what I said about NPR, which wasn't that they (being liberal-leaning) were
more interested in books and the arts (than who? conservatives?), but that they don't appear to hate the humanities at all. It is true, of course, that they give more attention to popular music than classical... but then again, they are PUBLIC radio, so that isn't surprising.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2020, 10:11:14 AM
Isn't it? The word "ranking" isn't a synonym for "scientifically proven fact."
I do not believe anyone wrote that was the case.
It is good to know that some people believe anything can be ranked. That is helpful knowledge.
Now back to US politics:
From AmPo: Don't fall for filibuster abolition. It's a trap. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/23/dont-fall-filibuster-abolition-its-trap/)
Schumer must ignore Levin.
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2020, 10:31:20 AM
I do not believe anyone wrote that was the case.
It is good to know that some people believe anything can be ranked. That is helpful knowledge.
But you don't rank it
the most helpful knowledge? ;D
Quote from: greg on September 24, 2020, 06:29:05 AM
In this era, what is even the point of going to school for music? Everything you need to know is available online.
Because the study of music is not at all as narrow a matter as "what you need to know."
Quote from: krummholz on September 24, 2020, 08:35:38 AM
Yes, that's an odd twist. When I was growing up, it was mostly environmentalists - who are (were) by and large left of center politically - who equated science with the worst crimes against nature and humanity perpetrated with its help.
I guess I agree that humanities as taught today has largely thrown out the classics in favor of a post-modern approach. And that the folks responsible are predominantly on the left. So clearly it depends on how you define "the humanities". Left-leaning media certainly don't give short shrift to art of all kinds, including music - NPR here in the US frequently has shows featuring interviewers with musicians all across the spectrum.
I also agree with the National Review piece that exposure to ideas on all sides of the spectrum in universities today has been largely thwarted by e.g. allowing students veto power over guest speakers with views deemed offensive. That's something I consider to be inconsistent with the goal of a university to teach students to think critically. I'm lucky in that I teach in a STEM field, so I rarely see that in my day to day life here, but I know that it's quite real.
have we brought up Jonathan Haidt and The Coddling of the American Mind? I can't remember. His thesis, if I have it right, is that 80s over-management and risk-aversion in parenting of children led to fragility and the sense of moral panic at the mention of challenging ideas in millennials and zoomers.
helicopter parenthood....
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2020, 03:00:48 PM
helicopter parenthood....
right. In Japan, children walk to school at 7 years old. But Japanese parents are still in the sandbox with them showing them how to build castles in the exact right way. Helicopter is everywhere :(
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 24, 2020, 09:47:09 AM
The fact that you didn't go to school for music is pretty obvious from the second sentence of your post. If you think all a serious student of music needs can be found online, you clearly have no idea about what goes on in music schools and conservatories.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Because the study of music is not at all as narrow a matter as "what you need to know."
So...uhh...networking?
Quote from: greg on September 24, 2020, 05:52:21 PM
So...uhh...networking?
I think if you're really dedicated and talented then you need mentors to challenge you; you need relationships that can deepen your practice and performance and that can encourage you to explore various paths to beyond.
Quote from: greg on September 24, 2020, 05:52:21 PM
So...uhh...networking?
How are you, playing with others?
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 06:01:50 PM
I think if you're really dedicated and talented then you need mentors to challenge you
You really don't.
Having as much information as possible is a good thing. But ultimately the answers lie within.
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 06:01:50 PM
you need relationships that can deepen your practice and performance and that can encourage you to explore various paths to beyond.
Never been necessary for me. Never a bad thing, of course, but ultimately unnecessary.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2020, 06:17:37 PM
How are you, playing with others?
That's a really open question so I don't know how to respond but I prefer to do as much as possible myself.
And you can do waaaaaaaay much more nowadays with music alone than what was possible before. All you need is time and money.
I know this is off-topic... sorry... just wanted to finish some thoughts here.
People just learn differently. Teachers may or may not be required. I've gotten to a place I'm satisfied with (and I do set the bar very high for myself) guitar playing and music composition, without ever having taken lessons with either one.
I think this sometimes extends to other fields, as well. When I did my programming class (the one that lasted over a year), my friend's big complaint was that the teacher wasn't teaching enough, which was very true. However, after I finished, I let him copy my work to help him finish the class. The lack of lectures helped free up more time for me to figure stuff out- learning by doing.
So yeah, the idea of needing a teacher for education-related stuff is not really relatable... so it's hard to feel supportive of things that are not going to give people a good ROI and just impoverish the next generation of Americans, when they could just learn on their own, even if that isn't their natural style of learning...
To follow up on your off-topic thoughts... ;)
I agree that you can do a lot by yourself, but I'm not sure training and education are completely unnecessary. I finished up a student work this year and wrote another lengthy piece completely from scratch, using notation software. I was pleasantly surprised at how well both turned out and really credit being able to hear something played back immediately as being a huge game-changer... but I cringe to think how awful they would have been without my teachers (in theory and composition), even though that was years ago. And having a professional musician (a local violist) to consult with has helped me to find and fix passages that couldn't be played, and to polish up a score to perhaps get it performed, once the pandemic is over. Help like that is really invaluable.
Now a composer working on a DAW, with no intention of getting something performed by humans, might have a different calculus.
I can't comment on the guitar as I do not play one, but I should think a performer (any instrument) would need professional training even more. Of course, if you're just playing for yourself, that's a different story.
Quote from: krummholz on September 25, 2020, 09:20:09 AM
And having a professional musician (a local violist) to consult with has helped me to find and fix passages that couldn't be played, and to polish up a score to perhaps get it performed, once the pandemic is over. Help like that is really invaluable.
For sure. If others will be performing your music, you gotta check with them to make sure it's playable.
Quote from: krummholz on September 25, 2020, 09:20:09 AM
I can't comment on the guitar as I do not play one, but I should think a performer (any instrument) would need professional training even more. Of course, if you're just playing for yourself, that's a different story.
I don't know about classical guitar, but for electric guitar it isn't uncommon for highly skilled players to be self-taught.
I also think the internet helped raise the general ability of guitarists worldwide the last 10+ years...
QuoteThe 2020 presidential election will be the first in 40 years to take place without a federal judge requiring the Republican National Committee to seek approval in advance for any "ballot security" operations at the polls. In 2018, a federal judge allowed the consent decree to expire, ruling that the plaintiffs had no proof of recent violations by Republicans. The consent decree, by this logic, was not needed, because it worked.
The order had its origins in the New Jersey gubernatorial election of 1981. According to the district court's opinion in Democratic National Committee v. Republican National Committee, the RNC allegedly tried to intimidate voters by hiring off-duty law-enforcement officers as members of a "National Ballot Security Task Force," some of them armed and carrying two-way radios. According to the plaintiffs, they stopped and questioned voters in minority neighborhoods, blocked voters from entering the polls, forcibly restrained poll workers, challenged people's eligibility to vote, warned of criminal charges for casting an illegal ballot, and generally did their best to frighten voters away from the polls. The power of these methods relied on well-founded fears among people of color about contact with police.
and following directly on from this:
'Army For Trump' ads incite armed militias to intimidate voters in 'election security operation', also Don Jr. doesn't look so good (https://boingboing.net/2020/09/25/army-for-trump-ads-incite-armed-militias-to-intimidate-voters-in-election-security-operation-also-don-jr-doesnt-look-so-good.html)
Junior: ""We need every able-bodied man and woman to join Army for Trump's election security operation...we need you to help us watch them."
-
"...like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet", as I think someone put it.
Quotealso Don Jr. doesn't look so good
Yow! I guess there's no point in asking why his family won't help him.
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 25, 2020, 02:26:39 PM
and following directly on from this:
'Army For Trump' ads incite armed militias to intimidate voters in 'election security operation', also Don Jr. doesn't look so good (https://boingboing.net/2020/09/25/army-for-trump-ads-incite-armed-militias-to-intimidate-voters-in-election-security-operation-also-don-jr-doesnt-look-so-good.html)
Junior: ""We need every able-bodied man and woman to join Army for Trump's election security operation...we need you to help us watch them."
-
"...like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet", as I think someone put it.
Don Jr. is just disgusting. This stuff, like much else they do, shows there's no low to which they won't stoop. I don't buy the argument that it doesn't matter since all politics is hypocrisy and corruption. It matters if they encourage lies that weaken the system we have for the same reason it matters if the Far left starts to encourage property destruction.
Tump has to go.
Well, clearly he won't go.
You're stuck with him and the GOP (who you oblige by talking about the Far Left).
Quote from: Herman on September 25, 2020, 10:29:28 PM
Well, clearly he won't go.
You're stuck with him and the GOP (who you oblige by talking about the Far Left).
I could say you oblige the GOP for not taking the left to task for its excesses, which are legion and toxic. Leftist "theory," identity driven and regressive, is a gift to the GOP. It's not even popular with who you think it is. It also distracts from real issues and it's anti-democratic.
The left is best at snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.
The insanity of US politics was an attraction for me in the beginning when I started following US politics after Trump's 2016 victory. This year however, things have gotten 10 times more insane in the US and I feel it's just too much. The inmates are running the asylum quite literally. Here's some "highlights" for me of the 2020 insanity in the US:
Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders was on the path of winning the nomination, but corporate Dems formed an "alliance" against him and were able to stop him with the help of corporate media having fearmongered about "socialist" Bernie non-stop and brainwashing Americans to believe Biden is the "most electable" so that many Americans went behind Biden in the primary despite of agreeing politically more with Bernie.
Covid-19
Trump can't be blamed for the virus, but he totally botched the handling of the pandemic from day one. "It's gonno be 15 cases and that's it". Well now 200.000+ corona deaths later we can say it was MUCH more than 15 cases. "The virus will go away in April when it gets warmer". It didn't. Then "doctor" Trump tells his own ideas to defeat the virus from internal UV lamps to injecting bleach to your body! Of course most of Trump's supporters are even crazier and more ignorant making wearing masks an political issue and part of cultural war! Jesus Christ! When the vaccine FINALLY comes, about half of Americans don't want it! Amazing! The richest country in the World has brainwashed itself into total idiocracy.
Kyle Kulinski says "Trump should have immediately started selling MAGA -masks and his supporters would be wearing them and the Democrats/left would wear masks anyway, because they believe in science and dr. Fauci. Everyone would wear the mask and the Covid-19 situation in the US would be much better giving Trump something to brag about and better changes to be re-elected."
Police brutality
After months of people on the streets demonstrating against police brutality nothing is being done to the problem. On the contrary, all this has achieved is make Trump show his authoritarian tendencies more openly. The whole police training has to be reformed in the US. In other developped countries police training lasts MUCH longer and it concentrates on minimal use of force and de-escalation. For me the US police looks like a club for racist right-wingers that has the blessing to do violence against whoever the hate from blacks to lefties. Of course a lot of US policemen are great people doing great police work, but the amount of bad apples is alarming and as we saw again with the Briana Taylor case, bad apples are protected more than regular people by the corrupt justice system.
Economy
Where do I begin? The rich and big corporation were saved with a few trillions while millions of regular people lost their job and employer provided healthcare in the middle of a pandemic showcases the utter insanity of the US for profit healthcare. There are already companies hiring people to carry out evictions because people can't pay their rents. You think the homeless problem is bad now? Oh boy, wait next year when up to 30 million American could be homeless! That's serious third country shit, but at least the trillions bumped on the stock market make sure the billionaires are doing great!
Trump not accepting loss???
The stuff above already is extremely bad, but Trump panicking about staying in office makes this beyond bad. In the election day we will see a "red mirage" and Trump taking a firm lead in electorates because his supporters vote in person much more than supporters of Biden and mail-in votes are not counted yet. Trump can claim victory and MAGA idiots will have massive parties, without masks of course. The when the mail-in votes are slowly counted, Trump's lead will shrink and then Biden will go into the lead! That's when Trump will declare election fraud and of course MAGA-people will believe it because he has been talking about mail-in voting fraud for months! What if the result goes to the court? What if Trump has filled Ginsburg's seat? Civil war? Nobody knows what will happen, but the possible scenarios are horrifying! Are we withnessing the US become a dictatorship? A richer version of Russia?
All of this is too much for me. I feel I am done with the US. What a sick and hopeless country! I guess the whole World is watching this jaw-dropping thriller the next weeks will bring us, but to be a balanced and happy person I need to pretend the US doesn't exist. I started to study Japanese (日本語, Nihongo) on Youtube because of my admiration of J-horror movies (for me it's not anime ;D ) and because I want to take my mind off the US insanity.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 26, 2020, 04:47:55 AMI feel I am done with the US.
For real this time? (JK, I know the real answer.)
Yes, the end is nigh. I guess like various Yurpean posters on the board, I should start losing some sleep over American political shenanigans. It's just so hard to do.
Quote from: milk on September 26, 2020, 12:46:39 AM
I could say you oblige the GOP for not taking the left to task for its excesses, which are legion and toxic. Leftist "theory," identity driven and regressive, is a gift to the GOP. It's not even popular with who you think it is. It also distracts from real issues and it's anti-democratic.
The left is best at snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.
In the USA, the Left is a tiny tiny movement, and sure it is a gift to the Right, who are blowing this up in giant proportions, just like Fox was saying (and maybe is still saying) that BLM looting is destroying entire cities, thereby appealing to primal fears and many people, including you, just don't resist that fear, because it feels so good.
Much of the damage during the protests is done by right-wing provocatoeurs, like Umbrella Man.
And why (if I were American) should I take people on the Left to task for being Left? Is there some law against being leftwing and advocating a redressing of the growing wealth inequality? I'm unaware of this, but fortunately I am not an American citizen and I don't have to shoot people for being not right of the center.
The same with this mirage of the academic humanities getting ruined by crazy Marxist-theory professors. Sure there are some professors writing some radical books, but mostly what they are teaching to undergraduates is pretty traditional stuff.
Quote from: Herman on September 26, 2020, 05:36:59 AMjust like Fox was saying
People who reflexively resort to variants of "Fox News" are uninformed and have nothing of value to contribute. It's sort of a litmus test of worthlessness.
The inevitable within-the-minute Diner Cop post.
I don't even read that stuff...
Quote from: Herman on September 26, 2020, 05:51:56 AM
The inevitable within-the-minute Diner Cop post.
I don't even read that stuff...
Interesting, Herman does not read my posts, but he responds to them. Good to know. Love the continued use of Diner Cop, too.
Quote from: Herman on September 26, 2020, 05:36:59 AM
In the USA, the Left is a tiny tiny movement, and sure it is a gift to the Right, who are blowing this up in giant proportions, just like Fox was saying (and maybe is still saying) that BLM looting is destroying entire cities, thereby appealing to primal fears and many people, including you, just don't resist that fear, because it feels so good.
Much of the damage during the protests is done by right-wing provocatoeurs, like Umbrella Man.
And why (if I were American) should I take people on the Left to task for being Left? Is there some law against being leftwing and advocating a redressing of the growing wealth inequality? I'm unaware of this, but fortunately I am not an American citizen and I don't have to shoot people for being not right of the center.
The same with this mirage of the academic humanities getting ruined by crazy Marxist-theory professors. Sure there are some professors writing some radical books, but mostly what they are teaching to undergraduates is pretty traditional stuff.
no. I don't live in the US and personally have no fear of BLM "destroying entire cities." I did use to live close to where the police station burned down in Minneapolis. This hysteria over anecdotal incidents is counter-productive to solving real problems including racism. That's my opinion. There's a section of the left (and they're my friends - all over my Facebook feed) that is very dug-in, dogmatic and condescending.
Quote from: Herman on September 26, 2020, 05:51:56 AM
The inevitable within-the-minute Diner Cop post.
I don't even read that stuff...
Pity the guy has so little to do with himself.
Quote from: Herman on September 26, 2020, 05:36:59 AM
The same with this mirage of the academic humanities getting ruined by crazy Marxist-theory professors. Sure there are some professors writing some radical books, but mostly what they are teaching to undergraduates is pretty traditional stuff.
The Atlantic has been covering the critical theory controversy quite ably in my view. Conor Friedersdorf and John Mcwhorter are on the case. Upholding liberal values against illiberal elements is best done by thinkers who have more than an instrumental association with the values they defend.
Quote from: drogulus on September 26, 2020, 06:39:51 AM
The Atlantic has been covering the critical theory controversy quite ably in my view. Conor Friedersdorf and John Mcwhorter are on the case. Upholding liberal values against illiberal elements is best done by thinkers who have more than an instrumental association with the values they defend.
People should at least take a look at what they've written. People are so dug in though. I've seen McWhorter accused of being an "assimilationist" which just goes to show how far the left has moved away from MLK's vision.
Quote from: milk on September 26, 2020, 02:19:32 PM
People should at least take a look at what they've written. People are so dug in though. I've seen McWhorter accused of being an "assimilationist" which just goes to show how far the left has moved away from MLK's vision.
That's an old story, though. Certain political trends want to break the system more than they want a different one. For one, it's easier, and for two way more fun.
(https://media.thedonald.win/post/lSzHs9kr.png)
Quote from: Todd on September 26, 2020, 05:53:56 AM
Interesting, Herman does not read my posts, but he responds to them. Good to know. Love the continued use of Diner Cop, too.
We do read your posts. We just disagree with most of them.
And when I take the time to research you remarks I find that most of them are bogus.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 26, 2020, 10:15:29 PM
We do read your posts.
I don't. I just see the avatar popping up and I skip.
It's just negativity, trolling and "I know better", so why bother?
Quote from: Herman on September 27, 2020, 12:55:41 AM
I don't. I just see the avatar popping up and I skip.
It's just negativity, trolling and "I know better", so why bother?
What would you miss? The keen intellectual probity of "Let the shitstorm begin"?
There is a perfect inverse correlation between competent writing and use of the word troll and its derivatives.
I was a Republican governor of Pa. I'm voting for Joe Biden. | Opinion (https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/tom-ridge-trump-biden-election-2020-vote-20200927.html)
From the failing New York Times: Voters Believe Winner of Election Should Fill Court Vacancy, Poll Shows (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/27/us/politics/poll-supreme-court-trump-biden.html)
I'm sure Cocaine Mitch will take this poll under advisement.
Quote from: Herman on September 27, 2020, 12:55:41 AM
I don't. I just see the avatar popping up and I skip.
It's just negativity, trolling and "I know better", so why bother?
At one time I even complimented Todd for being well informed. That was many years ago. I think Trump broke him, gave his id everything it ever wanted. His superego never had a chance.
Sharp and thought-provoking. A double whammy.
TRUMP'S TAXES SHOW CHRONIC LOSSES AND YEARS OF TAX AVOIDANCE (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage)
Most of Mr. Trump's core enterprises — from his constellation of golf courses to his conservative-magnet hotel in Washington — report losing millions, if not tens of millions, of dollars year after year.
His revenue from "The Apprentice" and from licensing deals is drying up, and several years ago he sold nearly all the stocks that now might have helped him plug holes in his struggling properties.
The tax audit looms.
And within the next four years, more than $300 million in loans — obligations for which he is personally responsible — will come due.
Against that backdrop, the records go much further toward revealing the actual and potential conflicts of interest created by Mr. Trump's refusal to divest himself of his business interests while in the White House. His properties have become bazaars for collecting money directly from lobbyists, foreign officials and others seeking face time, access or favor; the records for the first time put precise dollar figures on those transactions.
Quote from: drogulus on September 27, 2020, 02:07:03 PM
TRUMP'S TAXES SHOW CHRONIC LOSSES AND YEARS OF TAX AVOIDANCE (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage)
Most of Mr. Trump's core enterprises — from his constellation of golf courses to his conservative-magnet hotel in Washington — report losing millions, if not tens of millions, of dollars year after year.
His revenue from "The Apprentice" and from licensing deals is drying up, and several years ago he sold nearly all the stocks that now might have helped him plug holes in his struggling properties.
The tax audit looms.
And within the next four years, more than $300 million in loans — obligations for which he is personally responsible — will come due.
Against that backdrop, the records go much further toward revealing the actual and potential conflicts of interest created by Mr. Trump's refusal to divest himself of his business interests while in the White House. His properties have become bazaars for collecting money directly from lobbyists, foreign officials and others seeking face time, access or favor; the records for the first time put precise dollar figures on those transactions.
What a business geeeenius!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 27, 2020, 02:12:02 PM
What a business geeeenius!
It turns out there is an audit! Trump has been fighting with the IRS for many years over a refund he claimed for $72M. If he loses he'll owe more than $100M.
The failing New York Times piece on Trump's taxes is a doozy.
Those shocking revelations about Russia blew me away.
Tens of millions of people will change their votes because of this report.
Quote from: Todd on September 27, 2020, 03:15:01 PM
The failing New York Times piece on Trump's taxes is a doozy.
Those shocking revelations about Russia blew me away.
Tens of millions of people will change their votes because of this report.
Trump could release his taxes anytime and show us what genius he is, but he doesn't so
all we have is The failing New York Times.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 27, 2020, 05:30:25 PM
Trump could release his taxes anytime and show us what genius he is, but he doesn't so all we have is The failing New York Times.
Yes. And it does not matter to the election.
I like the inclusion of "we". It reminds me of sports fans who convince themselves of their importance to the success of their preferred team or teams.
To single out the failing New York Times is unfair.
The decline has nothing to do with their editorial policy.
I am confident that if we took the time to do the research we would find that there are also conservative newspapers that are in trouble. I know that the circulation for the Washington Times, the conservative newspaper in Washington, DC, has been declining as well as the Post.
All print news media is failing.
BBC news coverage of a black opera singer in Portland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-54214470
Quote from: arpeggio on September 27, 2020, 06:16:34 PM
To single out the failing New York Times is unfair.
The decline has nothing to do with their editorial policy.
I am confident that if we took the time to do the research we would find that there are also conservative newspapers that are in trouble. I know that the circulation for the Washington Times, the conservative newspaper in Washington, DC, has been declining as well as the Post.
All print news media is failing.
the NYT is actually doing well. The idea that it is 'failing' is a Trump move to discredit the press, while Trump's really running multiple businesses into bankruptcy, and now of course the entire USA.
One could say 'local' newspapers are doing bad, but the Times has become a international newspaper.
Being a Trump sock puppet Diner Cop echoes the meaningless "failing NYT" phrase because he, too, lies the way he breathes. That's the price you pay. You get empty.
Brad Parscale, Ex-Campaign Manager for Trump, Is Hospitalized in Florida (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/27/us/politics/brad-parscale-florida-trump.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage)
MIAMI — President Trump's former campaign manager, Brad Parscale, was hospitalized after the police were called to his home in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., by his wife, who said he had guns and was threatening to hurt himself, officials said on Sunday evening.
Admit it, you thought there was something a little off about the guy with the "will not replace us" beard.
He may have got lost among the gargoyles surrounding Bad Orange Man.
Quote from: Herman on September 27, 2020, 07:25:50 PM
the NYT is actually doing well. The idea that it is 'failing' is a Trump move to discredit the press, while Trump's really running multiple businesses into bankruptcy, and now of course the entire USA.
One could say 'local' newspapers are doing bad, but the Times has become a international newspaper.
Being a Trump sock puppet Diner Cop echoes the meaningless "failing NYT" phrase because he, too, likes to lie. That's the price you pay.
The situation is this, Trump supporters are constantly making proclamations. If one takes the time to do the research one finds that the majority of what they say is inaccurate.
I am no longer interested in going on wild goose chases. They are like the boy who cried wolf.
What is so disheartening about the latest revelations concerning Trumps tax returns is that most Republicans hate Democrats so much they would rather see Jack the Ripper in the White House instead of a Democrat.
the truly disheartening thing of course is none of these discussions matter.
Trump and the GOP will stage a quasi-legal coup d'etat in November, a number of people pro and con will be shot and killed, and when the dust settles Trump will still be in the White House, where he's 'immune' from lenders domestic and foreign. And if he's still able to utter talk in 2024 he'll continue. People will basically die to save his sorry ass. Nothing will make Trump feel better than that.
Used to be people predicted he would step down in December and pardon himself in advance, but that doesn't help him with his debt problems. Like many authoritarian leaders he needs to stay in power for the immunity. Barr and the GOP will support and enable this because the GOP is a minority party that increasingly needs weird stuff to stay in power and realise its goals: tax breaks for the rich and end Roe v Wade.
The USA has ceased to be a functioning democracy, and calling the NYT and the Washington Post failing or crooked is part of this.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 27, 2020, 09:52:02 PM
What is so disheartening about the latest revelations concerning Trumps tax returns is that most Republicans hate Democrats so much they would rather see Jack the Ripper in the White House instead of a Democrat.
It has nothing to do with hatred of Democrats. It's about power and wanting to hold onto it and their jobs.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 28, 2020, 03:49:52 AM
It has nothing to do with hatred of Democrats. It's about power and wanting to hold onto it and their jobs.
Of course many in the Trump movement are motivated by power.
According to Rick Wilson, David Frum and Charles Sykes, in their books about the Trump movement, for many of his supporters religion plays a role.
They also discuss the animas that most of them have toward Democrats as well as the power issue.
Quote from: Herman on September 27, 2020, 10:59:29 PM
Trump and the GOP will stage a quasi-legal coup d'etat in November, a number of people pro and con will be shot and killed, and when the dust settles Trump will still be in the White House, where he's 'immune' from lenders domestic and foreign. And if he's still able to utter talk in 2024 he'll continue. People will basically die to save his sorry ass. Nothing will make Trump feel better than that.
I think this is only a realistic possibility if the vote count is close enough that there is sincere doubt about who won. Otherwise, as last week's Senate resolution shows, quite a few Republicans will cry "enough!" and Trump will be gone. If the Trump inner circle tries to assassinate them, the first one they either kill or who survives will blow the whistle, the public will rise up, and again, Trump will be gone.
It's been suggested that the best way to avoid this scenario is for large numbers of people to show up at the polls instead of voting by mail, to deny Trump the opportunity to declare victory prematurely. This is tragic, as some who do will likely contract COVID-19 because of this, but unless something changes between now and November 3, it may be the truly patriotic thing to do.
Quote from: Herman on September 27, 2020, 10:59:29 PMThe USA has ceased to be a functioning democracy
The juggernaut did it.
An honest question for @Todd and any other Trump supporters: why do you continue to stand behind this man in spite of the allegations that have been made about him, and in spite of his faithfully reported (and recorded!) words?
Do you believe the allegations are false? If so, please address two or three recent ones: those of Bob Woodward in Rage (including Trump's words on tape); his refusal to commit to a peaceful transfer of power, to wit, his statement "Get rid of the ballots, and you don't have a transition, you have a continuation" (also on tape); and the story about how little he paid in taxes.
Or does it all not matter to you? If not, then why not? Why do you want to see Donald Trump get a second term?
Quote from: krummholz on September 28, 2020, 04:41:15 AMAn honest question for @Todd and any other Trump supporters: why do you continue to stand behind this man in spite of the allegations that have been made about him, and in spite of his faithfully reported (and recorded!) words?
Do you believe the allegations are false? If so, please address two or three recent ones: those of Bob Woodward in Rage (including Trump's words on tape); his refusal to commit to a peaceful transfer of power, to wit, his statement "Get rid of the ballots, and you don't have a transition, you have a continuation" (also on tape); and the story about how little he paid in taxes.
Or does it all not matter to you? If not, then why not? Why do you want to see Donald Trump get a second term?
A lot of assumptions in your questions, including that I am a Trump supporter, as typically understood.
I have explicitly stated why I would prefer a second Trump term on multiple occasions on this forum. That was before he advocated negative interest rates, though. I will let you do some looking. Ultimately, I am fine with all possible outcomes.
Now, perhaps you, or some GMG Constitutional Law expert, can explain how Trump's various proclamations change the three critical dates of the election, and how said proclamations will impact the second and third key dates. There are reasons why Trump is belching out political theater bluster while putting together a big legal team.
It is quite telling that when Trump talks about throwing out ballots, or refuses to commit to a peaceful transitional power, elected Republicans remain silent. No doubt they believe, correctly, that their base is more attached to Trump than to democracy. (https://thebulwark.com/can-we-stop-americas-free-fall/)
Quote from: krummholz on September 28, 2020, 04:41:15 AM
An honest question for @Todd and any other Trump supporters: why do you continue to stand behind this man in spite of the allegations that have been made about him, and in spite of his faithfully reported (and recorded!) words?
Do you believe the allegations are false? If so, please address two or three recent ones: those of Bob Woodward in Rage (including Trump's words on tape); his refusal to commit to a peaceful transfer of power, to wit, his statement "Get rid of the ballots, and you don't have a transition, you have a continuation" (also on tape); and the story about how little he paid in taxes.
Or does it all not matter to you? If not, then why not? Why do you want to see Donald Trump get a second term?
I had difficulties understanding the support for Trump when I started following US politics (this was winter 2017) because I coudn't get how some people can't see Trump is totally unfit to the president. What made me understand things was when I heard the lefties such as TYT call Trump the "cult leader". His supporters have never had much rational reasons for their support. It's all about feelings. Trump makes them
feel good. That's all it is. The mistake we did while evaluating the opinions of other people we assume they have come to the conclusion thinking rationally, but that's not often the case. A lot of people seem to fool themselves by thinking if something feels good it means it's a fact or it makes sense, but the World does not work that way. The facts are often depressing! Facts often makes us feel bad. If you reject the bad feeling you also reject the facts. Trump is for many the "savior" who denies the facts and makes people feel good. Unfortunately it's only for a short time, because denial of the facts has ugly consequencies, for example a corporate frendly supreme court for decades blocking nearly all progressive ideas, althou an amendment to ban money in politics is a theoretical solution for this, but you need to make that amendment done and it's really really difficult!
So, that's what this is all about. If climate change makes you feel bad, you can believe in your cult leader Trump who says climate change is just a Chinese hoax and feel good about doing nothing about it. If mexican immigrants make you feel bad, daddy Trump makes you feel good by promising the wall. The only rational reasons to vote for Trump in 2016 were his economical leftism compared to centrist corporate Hillary: He talked about bringing the outsourced jobs back. He talked about affordable great healthcare. Many desperate Americans were ready to take that chance, but if those people really are rational in their decision, they should have noticed long ago Trump is a total fraud.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 04:59:38 AM
I have explicitly stated why I would prefer a second Trump term on multiple occasions on this forum.
No. You haven't. Please do so now.
Because there's nothing to be found in lookng through all your previous posts - like anyone's going to do that - beyond cheap snark from a guy who somehow thinks cheap snark makes hiim sound like Oscar Wilde.
Quote from: Herman on September 27, 2020, 10:59:29 PM
The USA has ceased to be a functioning democracy,...
Yes.
It happened little over 40 years ago when money in politics was allowed as "freedom of speech." At first the consequences were mild. Reagan accelarated things with his "trickle down" economics (hardly anything ever trickles down, because the rich rather keep the money themselves). Money in politics slowly pushed both the Republicans and the Democrats to right so that Obama did an originally Republican healthcare plan for example. In economic issues The Dems are now were the Republicans used to be a few decades ago while the Republicans now support full crony capitalism for the bottom 99 % and corporate socialism for the top 1 %.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2020, 05:43:54 AMIt happened little over 40 years ago when money in politics was allowed as "freedom of speech."
Are you referring to Buckley?
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 28, 2020, 05:40:36 AM
No. You haven't. Please do so now.
Because there's nothing to be found in lookng through all your previous posts - like anyone's going to do that - beyond cheap snark from a guy who somehow thinks cheap snark makes hiim sound like Oscar Wilde.
Well said! ;) Todd is mr. Cheap Snarks!
Anyway I am quite sure I know why Todd wants to vote for Trump: Trump makes Todd feel good. Knowing what kind of person Todd is I'd say it's the "own the libs" aspect. :-\
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 05:49:40 AM
Are you referring to Buckley?
Yes. Buckley v. Valeo, 1976. It's not the only ruling undercutting the US democracy, but one could say it is the beginning of the current situation.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2020, 05:53:47 AM
Yes. Buckley v. Valeo, 1976. It's not the only ruling undercutting the US democracy, but one could say it is the beginning of the current situation.
The ruling does not undercut democracy.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 05:55:09 AM
The ruling does not undercut democracy.
Why? What does it do then in your opinion? What is it for?
Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2020, 05:58:48 AM
Why? What does it do then in your opinion? What is it for?
It protects freedom of speech, and freedom of the press, the latter by narrowing the scope of the underlying statute. Congress passes questionable or inexact legislation from time to time. Only a radical court would throw out Buckley.
US fans of vigorous campaign finance law need to push for a Constitutional Amendment; non-American fans of vigorous campaign finance law can do nothing.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 06:05:19 AM
It protects freedom of speech, and freedom of the press, the latter by narrowing the scope of the underlying statute. Congress passes questionable or inexact legislation from time to time. Only a radical court would throw out Buckley.
US fans of vigorous campaign finance law need to push for a Constitutional Amendment; non-American fans of vigorous campaign finance law can do nothing.
Kyle Kulinski said the logic behind this implies prostitution should be legal, because paying for a prostitute is saying "I like blowjobs!" ;D
As for freedom of press, the ruling is badly formulation as it makes possible wild bribing of politicials that has nothing to do with journalism.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2020, 06:17:08 AM
Kyle Kulinski said the logic behind this implies prostitution should be legal, because paying for a prostitute is saying "I like blowjobs!" ;D
Well, that settles that, then.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 06:17:47 AM
Well, that settles that, then.
Mr. Cheap Snarks doing what he does best! ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2020, 06:24:22 AM
Mr. Cheap Snarks doing what he does best! ;)
I thought I was Diner Cop. Non-American posters on this board do come up with the best names, that's for sure.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 06:26:47 AM
I thought I was Diner Cop. Non-American posters on this board do come up with the best names, that's for sure.
Since you think so little about the insight into US politics of us non-Americans, we resort to coming up with witty names. It makes us look hopefully more like Trump in your eyes: He also has very little insight into US politics and comes up with witty names such as "Crooked Hillary", "Sleepy Joe" and "Crazy Bernie." ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2020, 06:53:11 AM
Since you think so little about the insight into US politics of us non-Americans, we resort to coming up with witty names. It makes us look hopefully more like Trump in your eyes: He also has very little insight into US politics and comes up with witty names such as "Crooked Hillary", "Sleepy Joe" and "Crazy Bernie." ;)
Ah.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 04:59:38 AM
I have explicitly stated why I would prefer a second Trump term on multiple occasions on this forum. That was before he advocated negative interest rates, though. I will let you do some looking. Ultimately, I am fine with all possible outcomes.
Fair enough.
QuoteNow, perhaps you, or some GMG Constitutional Law expert, can explain how Trump's various proclamations change the three critical dates of the election, and how said proclamations will impact the second and third key dates. There are reasons why Trump is belching out political theater bluster while putting together a big legal team.
1. They do not.
2. They do not.
3. His "political theater", unfortunately, has the effect of undermining public trust in the outcome of the election. Legally challenging the vote count is fair game - Gore did it, to an extent, in 2000, though ultimately he conceded. At first I assumed that was all Trump meant by "we'll see, I'm not going to say whether I'll accept it, we'll have to see how things turn out". But when he said "the ballots are the problem" and "get rid of the ballots and you don't have a transition...", I started questioning that assumption. It's not a matter of Trump's proclamations affecting the key dates, it is whether the vote count will be final by then, and what Trump will do if either the count is not final, or he still refuses to accept the result.
Quote from: krummholz on September 28, 2020, 07:07:54 AM3. His "political theater", unfortunately, has the effect of undermining public trust in the outcome of the election.
Maybe. Best case/worst case, depending on outlook, November 3 is close, which will lead to all manner of political shenanigans by both parties. Not since way back in 2016 will electors receive so much attention.
Quote from: drogulus on September 27, 2020, 02:07:03 PM
TRUMP'S TAXES SHOW CHRONIC LOSSES AND YEARS OF TAX AVOIDANCE (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage)
Most of Mr. Trump's core enterprises — from his constellation of golf courses to his conservative-magnet hotel in Washington — report losing millions, if not tens of millions, of dollars year after year.
His revenue from "The Apprentice" and from licensing deals is drying up, and several years ago he sold nearly all the stocks that now might have helped him plug holes in his struggling properties.
The tax audit looms.
And within the next four years, more than $300 million in loans — obligations for which he is personally responsible — will come due.
Against that backdrop, the records go much further toward revealing the actual and potential conflicts of interest created by Mr. Trump's refusal to divest himself of his business interests while in the White House. His properties have become bazaars for collecting money directly from lobbyists, foreign officials and others seeking face time, access or favor; the records for the first time put precise dollar figures on those transactions.
Thanks for that link. I read an abbreviated version/article on the BBC today. That one goes into quite a bit more detail. ::)
PD
Quote from: krummholz on September 28, 2020, 04:34:54 AM
I think this is only a realistic possibility if the vote count is close enough that there is sincere doubt about who won. Otherwise, as last week's Senate resolution shows, quite a few Republicans will cry "enough!" and Trump will be gone. If the Trump inner circle tries to assassinate them, the first one they either kill or who survives will blow the whistle, the public will rise up, and again, Trump will be gone.
Your scenario is too optimistic. Chances there will be a 100% or even 95% vote count, resulting in a close vote, are vanishingly small. What Trump needs to call off the vote counting on November 4, or some such date, is a sufficient amount of irregularities in and around the voting locations. Well, those irregularities can be organized.
The legal ban on having "security" troops around the vote has been lifted this election year and I believe the GOP will deploy some 50.000 men (and maybe even some women) all over the nation. Fights will break out, and perhaps one or two buildings will go up in flames, which means the paper ballots and perhaps the machines will be kaputt. That will give Trump the opportunity to say the elections have been rigged by "anarchists" and the Supreme Court will have to decide.
Quote from: Herman on September 28, 2020, 07:59:56 AM
Fights will break out, and perhaps one or two buildings will go up in flames,
This seems to have been going on for several months now without immediate connection to an election. Seems to be the new normal for the US (and to be fair it was not totally uncommon in earlier decades either).
Quote from: Jo498 on September 28, 2020, 08:12:24 AMand to be fair it was not totally uncommon in earlier decades either
Yep.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 28, 2020, 08:12:24 AM
This seems to have been going on for several months now without immediate connection to an election. Seems to be the new normal for the US (and to be fair it was not totally uncommon in earlier decades either).
But in November is will be put to use for Trump.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/28/wife-of-former-trump-campaign-chief-brad-parscale-says-he-hits-her.html
Recall that Parscale was fired after teenagers on TikTok pimped the Orange Pustule campaign by making bogus reservations for the Tulsa rally. (That's probably why the O.P. is going after TikTok ;D ). Surprised he got axed, seems to have fit in well.
I think Trump will lose his nerve on the day of reckoning and the days of more reckoning that follow.
Fox will call the election straight. Look at what they did when Karl Rove tried to uncall Ohio in 2012. The election bots at Fox are well regarded among competent regarders.
The legal questions may not benefit from Andrew "mole in the Circus" Napolitano's dose of realism due to an alleged conflict of interest between His Honor and representatives of the female race.
Quote from: T. D. on September 28, 2020, 09:19:07 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/28/wife-of-former-trump-campaign-chief-brad-parscale-says-he-hits-her.html
Recall that Parscale was fired after teenagers on TikTok pimped the Orange Pustule campaign by making bogus reservations for the Tulsa rally. (That's probably why the O.P. is going after TikTok ;D ). Surprised he got axed, seems to have fit in well.
Where do you go if you're not good enough for Trumpistan?
Quote from: Herman on September 28, 2020, 07:59:56 AM
Your scenario is too optimistic. Chances there will be a 100% or even 95% vote count, resulting in a close vote, are vanishingly small. What Trump needs to call off the vote counting on November 4, or some such date, is a sufficient amount of irregularities in and around the voting locations. Well, those irregularities can be organized.
The legal ban on having "security" troops around the vote has been lifted this election year and I believe the GOP will deploy some 50.000 men (and maybe even some women) all over the nation. Fights will break out, and perhaps one or two buildings will go up in flames, which means the paper ballots and perhaps the machines will be kaputt. That will give Trump the opportunity to say the elections have been rigged by "anarchists" and the Supreme Court will have to decide.
I agree that there will likely be attempts at voter intimidation, mostly by GOP operatives. To prevent this, election officials will need to be extremely vigilant and to have security forces on hand to nip any violence in the bud. I do not see this as leading to the vote count being called off. That would be a nightmare scenario such as not even Bernie Sanders has suggested as a likely development.
In any case it will NOT be a normal election. Americans need to prepare for lengthy court challenges regardless of who is declared the winner. I still say the realistic nightmare scenario is a close vote, narrowly in favor of Biden, with Trump insisting the election was rigged or that many Biden votes were fraudulent. It could end up before SCOTUS. There is concern that some normally red states may allow their electors to choose to vote for Trump in the EC even if Biden wins the state. There are ways that Trump could "legally" stay in office even if he loses. If that happens, the U.S. is in trouble. But as the polls stand today, I don't think a close vote is likely, and Trump will have to do something illegal to stay in office.
Quote from: krummholz on September 28, 2020, 09:41:15 AM
... and Trump will have to do something illegal to stay in office.
And Trumpkins are okay with that.
Quote from: krummholz on September 28, 2020, 09:41:15 AMThere is concern that some normally red states may allow their electors to choose to vote for Trump in the EC even if Biden wins the state.
Chiafalo could make that a bit more difficult now, at least for states with rules in place for electors. Of course, if the punishment for faithless action is minimal, it wouldn't really matter.
Anti-Trump folks got too excited about the possible role of faithless electors in 2016; pro-Trump folks should be careful not to get too excited this year.
Speaker Pelosi says Trump's taxes reveal 'national security' issue (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/speaker-pelosi-says-trump-s-taxes-reveal-national-security-issue-n1241255)
Quote from: Finger waggin', denture jostlin' NancyThis president appears to have over $400 million in debt. To whom? Different countries? What is the leverage they have? So for me, this is a national security question
This is getting good!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 28, 2020, 09:49:35 AM
And Trumpkins are okay with that.
Too many are. But I still have some faith that enough people in public service are not Trumpkins. I believe that if Trump does something blatantly illegal to stay in power, he will lose support in the GOP. It will take more to turn the tide than it did for Nixon, yes, but Trump will not prevail.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Chiafalo could make that a bit more difficult now, at least for states with rules in place for electors. Of course, if the punishment for faithless action is minimal, it wouldn't really matter.
Yes, there are 17 states (including DC) that have toothless faithless electors laws, and there are 17 states with no such rules. So it is still a concern.
Quote
Anti-Trump folks got too excited about the possible role of faithless electors in 2016; pro-Trump folks should be careful not to get too excited this year.
I agree with that too - it's a concern, but not a loophole that Trump supporters can count on.
Well, I'm going to make the attempt to vote by mail this year. Sent in my application. I do still have the option to vote in person if I choose to. I'd rather avoid the crowds due to Covid though. I'll make sure to mail it in early though. There's also the option to vote early (to avoid crowds).
What are the rest of you (who can vote in the US) planning to do (if I might ask?)?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
Well, I'm going to make the attempt to vote by mail this year. Sent in my application. I do still have the option to vote in person if I choose to. I'd rather avoid the crowds due to Covid though. I'll make sure to mail it in early though. There's also the option to vote early (to avoid crowds).
What are the rest of you (who can vote in the US) planning to do (if I might ask?)?
PD
I applied for an absentee ballot, not yet received. My county has several early voting locations (dates 10/24-11/1), and I'll probably vote in person at one of those. Not certain yet.
I work for a municipality, in a building which is also the Town's polling place, but I plan to work from home on Election Day. Even though it's a tiny town and "crowds" will be minimal, it's a rural area and I expect non-mask wearers to show up. I'll let the election workers deal with
that problem (they surely have a playbook).
Quote from: Dowder on September 28, 2020, 10:31:26 AM
Those brute fascist Republicans sure are scary. Meanwhile the Dems use ballot harvesting, register convicted felons and hope as many undocumented people vote blue to get those red crooks from office. And don't forget to vote by mail, even if you're dead or your cat happens to receive a ballot.
If Trump loses it will be legal votes that defeat him. I'm a voter and I don't worry about cats or illegals voting because they don't. These entities didn't elect any President and they won't this time.
I think mail-in votes will not be a problem, except that it will take a few extra days to count all of them.
I'll vote early at the town hall, like I always do. Then I'll board a bus to New Hampshire......
Quote from: T. D. on September 28, 2020, 12:17:46 PM
I applied for an absentee ballot, not yet received. My county has several early voting locations (dates 10/24-11/1), and I'll probably vote in person at one of those. Not certain yet.
I work for a municipality, in a building which is also the Town's polling place, but I plan to work from home on Election Day. Even though it's a tiny town and "crowds" will be minimal, it's a rural area and I expect non-mask wearers to show up. I'll let the election workers deal with that problem (they surely have a playbook).
I just sent out my request for mine today. Like you, I'm tempted to try the early voting. I suppose that if it looks crowded I could try another day or time? If I do decide to vote by mail, I'll make certain that I send it off in plenty of time. With one exception, during college, I've always voted in person.
Quote from: drogulus on September 28, 2020, 12:33:12 PM
If Trump loses it will be legal votes that defeat him. I'm a voter and I don't worry about cats or illegals voting because they don't. These entities didn't elect any President and they won't this time.
I think mail-in votes will not be a problem, except that it will take a few extra days to count all of them.
I'll vote early at the town hall, like I always do. Then I'll board a bus to New Hampshire......
I don't know drogulus, that cat of yours....not cow cat, but the one who tried to steal your cookie and in another photo was trying to get into (or something out of?) your stand mixer seems mighty sneaky and without a conscience to me! ;)
PD
Quote from: krummholz on September 28, 2020, 11:43:03 AM
Too many are. But I still have some faith that enough people in public service are not Trumpkins. I believe that if Trump does something blatantly illegal to stay in power, he will lose support in the GOP. It will take more to turn the tide than it did for Nixon, yes, but Trump will not prevail.
He already has. Perhaps you are forgetting that he violated the Impoundment Control Act and withheld funding to Ukraine? And that he is under a sealed felony indictment for the same crimes Michael Cohen is serving time for? Republicans have supported him despite blatantly illegal actions and they will continue to do so.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 28, 2020, 01:24:15 PMPerhaps you are forgetting that he violated the Impoundment Control Act and withheld funding to Ukraine?
Wasn't there some hubbub about Ukraine earlier? How did that end up, again?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
Well, I'm going to make the attempt to vote by mail this year. Sent in my application. I do still have the option to vote in person if I choose to. I'd rather avoid the crowds due to Covid though. I'll make sure to mail it in early though. There's also the option to vote early (to avoid crowds).
What are the rest of you (who can vote in the US) planning to do (if I might ask?)?
PD
I requested a mail-in ballot, which worked fine for the State Primary at the beginning of this month. If the polling place is walkable, I'll vote early in person for the National E.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 28, 2020, 01:30:33 PM
I requested a mail-in ballot, which worked fine for the State Primary at the beginning of this month. If the polling place is walkable, I'll vote early in person for the National E.
Glad to hear that things are continuing to improve for you Karl; just stay safe!
By the way, I was going to add this to the post by drogulus, but decided to add it here instead (re pets): https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/it-says-a-lot-biden-attacks-trump-for-not-owning-pets
PD
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 28, 2020, 01:24:15 PM
He already has. Perhaps you are forgetting that he violated the Impoundment Control Act and withheld funding to Ukraine? And that he is under a sealed felony indictment for the same crimes Michael Cohen is serving time for? Republicans have supported him despite blatantly illegal actions and they will continue to do so.
Trump has done lots of things of questionable legality throughout his term. I don't think he has done anything (yet) that is blatantly illegal, at least not in a clear grab for power. I'm talking about something overt, such as being caught in a scheme to destroy ballots, or declared the loser yet trying to use the military to stay in power, or assassinate Republicans who try to resist. To me the Senate resolution last week is a clear line in the sand that (most of) the Republicans in Congress won't let him cross with impunity. You lose the election, you're out.
Now if the outcome is really in doubt, then lots of things can happen. But unless things change drastically in the next, what, 33? days, Biden is going to win. He is ahead in most of the states Trump needs to win to stay in office, and by comfortable margins. Trump's path to victory is pretty narrow - not impossible, but very unlikely unless something big happens.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
Well, I'm going to make the attempt to vote by mail this year. Sent in my application. I do still have the option to vote in person if I choose to. I'd rather avoid the crowds due to Covid though. I'll make sure to mail it in early though. There's also the option to vote early (to avoid crowds).
What are the rest of you (who can vote in the US) planning to do (if I might ask?)?
PD
Here in Vermont, this year, every eligible voter is being sent a ballot in the mail. I have been planning to use it, but after the latest revelations, I may mask up, carry a generous supply of sanitizer, and show up at the polls instead.
I haven't actually decided yet.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
Well, I'm going to make the attempt to vote by mail this year. Sent in my application. I do still have the option to vote in person if I choose to. I'd rather avoid the crowds due to Covid though. I'll make sure to mail it in early though. There's also the option to vote early (to avoid crowds).
What are the rest of you (who can vote in the US) planning to do (if I might ask?)?
PD
I could have voted in Hawaii or Oregon this year as I maintain residences in both states. I am electing to vote in Oregon and will be voting straight blue ticket. Oregon needs my vote more this year than Hawaii.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on September 28, 2020, 02:40:55 PMOregon needs my vote more this year than Hawaii.
What part of the state do you reside in?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on September 28, 2020, 02:40:55 PM
I could have voted in Hawaii or Oregon this year as I maintain residences in both states. I am electing to vote in Oregon and will be voting straight blue ticket. Oregon needs my vote more this year than Hawaii.
I was surprised to find out that one could be registered to vote in more than one state. What are the rules, if any, regarding needing to live for the majority of the year in a state? I did find this website which I found surprising. https://wiredpen.com/2017/01/25/legal-registered-vote-two-states/ Is it a matter of allowing you to vote if, for that year, you had lived more than six months in that state and you also filed your federal and state income taxes thusly...or would be?
PD
Kyle Kulinski comments the Trump tax news:
"People should not concentrate on the failed businessman angle, because that makes Trump more relatable, more like struggling working people. People should talk about the corruption angle, taking money from foreign countries and breaking the emoluments clause."
Good point from Kyle again.
---------------------------
Just making this post. I have been studying Katakana today! :-X
Quote from: Dowder on September 28, 2020, 10:31:26 AM
A rich guy who doesn't pay taxes? I'm shocked. The fact that it was released the week of the first debate is even more shocking.
Seeing the left wing conspiracy theories here is entertaining. Those brute fascist Republicans sure are scary. Meanwhile the Dems use ballot harvesting, register convicted felons and hope as many undocumented people vote blue to get those red crooks from office. And don't forget to vote by mail, even if you're dead or your cat happens to receive a ballot.
Ah! the good faith participation Poster Child.
The bottom line, and I know I am being redundant, but if Trump was a Democrat, the right would be screaming for his head.
Quote from: Dowder on September 28, 2020, 03:37:02 PM
Rather disturbing about ballot harvesting in Minnesota:
https://twitter.com/project_veritas/status/1310627613635993607?s=21
Which is actually the usual Veritas fakery.
Among other things, "ballot harvesting" is legal in Minnesota.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
Well, I'm going to make the attempt to vote by mail this year. Sent in my application. I do still have the option to vote in person if I choose to. I'd rather avoid the crowds due to Covid though. I'll make sure to mail it in early though. There's also the option to vote early (to avoid crowds).
What are the rest of you (who can vote in the US) planning to do (if I might ask?)?
PD
I received my absentee ballot Saturday. There are a couple of local races plus a state constitutional amendment I need to think over before I send it in. Or I might early vote--starts Oct 19 here (Florida). Haven't decided for sure.
Quote from: Dowder on September 28, 2020, 03:37:02 PM
Rather disturbing about ballot harvesting in Minnesota:
https://twitter.com/project_veritas/status/1310627613635993607?s=21
James O'Keefe has a history of doctoring videos.
Liberal Groups Fear O'Keefe Election Sting (https://www.thedailybeast.com/liberal-groups-fear-james-okeefe-election-sting)
Right around the same time that Fortune was attempting to infiltrate progressive North Carolina groups, a so-called documentary film crew called "Zeitgeist Pictures" began interviewing six liberal groups in Wisconsin for what they claimed was a documentary about voting rights. The groups became suspicious, though, after the filmmakers began asking whether the groups were willing to break the law to illegally register voters.
The film crew disappeared as the groups grew more suspicious when they found no proof, aside from a barebones website, that there's an actual film company called Zeitgeist Pictures. The activists interviewed by the crew claim they were able to identify one of their "interviewers" as O'Keefe associate Christian Hartsock, using pictures of Hartsock online.
Unlike the Wisconsin operation, the North Carolina scheme hasn't been publicly linked to O'Keefe, and Project Veritas spokesman Neil W. McCabe said O'Keefe's group won't "comment on investigations, real or imagined." But on Monday, Project Veritas plans to release a video that O'Keefe claims will offer "UNDENIABLE VIDEO PROOF OF SYSTEMIC VOTER FRAUD." I don't have the kind of sense of humor to appreciate pranksters like this guy. They hurt people. On the bright side, people don't get taken in by crime solicitations.
I have already sent in by ballot.
In Virginia there is a proposed amendment to the Virginia State Constitution to create a commission to determine the state districts, taking it away from the legislature.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 03:03:01 PM
I was surprised to find out that one could be registered to vote in more than one state. What are the rules, if any, regarding needing to live for the majority of the year in a state? I did find this website which I found surprising. https://wiredpen.com/2017/01/25/legal-registered-vote-two-states/ Is it a matter of allowing you to vote if, for that year, you had lived more than six months in that state and you also filed your federal and state income taxes thusly...or would be?
PD
I filed in Oregon, haven't changed my official registration, and haven't changed my license. I won't register to vote in Hawaii until next election. I don't cheat and am ethical. Someone asked me to register and vote in Hawaii and I told them I wouldn't.
Quote from: Todd on September 28, 2020, 02:51:17 PM
What part of the state do you reside in?
Portland area
Quote from: Dowder on September 28, 2020, 10:12:43 PM
I'll mention it as long as the libs here continue to drag the name of the GOP thru the mud.
You are, like, six years old?
How come your dad isn't running the Fire Dept?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on September 28, 2020, 10:49:08 PM
Portland area
And the Stumptown area needs another person to vote blue because?
Quote from: drogulus on September 28, 2020, 07:10:19 PM
James O'Keefe has a history of doctoring videos.
And Trumpkins do fall for the fake news.
Quote from: Dowder on September 28, 2020, 10:12:43 PM
I'll mention it as long as the libs here continue to drag the name of the GOP thru the mud.
No one here has to lift a finger. The tweeter-in-chief and his enablers are doing a fine job, all on their own.
--Bruce
Quote from: flyingdutchman on September 28, 2020, 10:48:29 PM
I filed in Oregon, haven't changed my official registration, and haven't changed my license. I won't register to vote in Hawaii until next election. I don't cheat and am ethical. Someone asked me to register and vote in Hawaii and I told them I wouldn't.
Insert sound of woman applauding. :)
There are some state issues here that I need to think about more too.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 28, 2020, 08:02:51 PM
I have already sent in by ballot.
In Virginia there is a proposed amendment to the Virginia State Constitution to create a commission to determine the state districts, taking it away from the legislature.
Interesting. Do you think that that would make things fairer/more balanced? I know little about politics and voting in Virginia.
PD
California Republicans prepared to match Democrats on 'ballot harvesting.' Then came coronavirus (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/04/28/california-republicans-were-prepared-to-match-democrats-on-ballot-harvesting-then-coronavirus-happened-1280474)
Veteran Democratic strategist Garry South said "the GOP caterwauling about 'ballot harvesting' is utterly disingenuous.''
"They deliberately use terms to make it seem like a practice that is illegal or shady, when it is in fact a perfectly legal and common method to collect absentee ballots,'' South said. He notes that "it's ironic that the highest-profile recent case of illegally collecting absentee ballots was actually a Republican in North Carolina,'' where the effort "invalidated a Congressional election."
In that case, prosecutors in 2019 filed felony charges against an operative who worked for GOP candidate Mark Harris, alleging that L. McCrae Dowless Jr. committed voter fraud in connection with illegal possession of absentee ballots. Harris' election in North Carolina's 9th Congressional District was eventually overturned.
California Repubs can lawfully harvest votes. So long as they can avoid committing crimes while doing it there's no issue.
So why did they reverse their position?
Republican strategist Mike Madrid says the California GOP may be trying to set the stage for arguing in advance that "this is an illegitimate election.'
That's probably it.
We'll probably know the winner of the election sooner than most people think. The Florida results will be reported fairly early, and if Biden wins Florida he's probably won it all.
(https://i.imgur.com/io8hTeq.png)
The maps above don't show a path to victory for Trump without Florida. Note that only one scenario has Trump winning without Pennsylvania.
Ex-Trump Doc Suggests on Fox That Biden's on Drugs (https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-trump-doctor-ronny-jackson-goes-on-hannity-to-suggest-bidens-on-memory-boosting-drugs?ref=home)
How did Dr. Ronny get his WH moniker "Candy Man"?
I'm also thinking along the lines of "no puppet, you're the puppet" in terms of a candidate displaying serious mental and physical signs of impairment.
Quote from: drogulus on September 29, 2020, 09:33:38 AM
Ex-Trump Doc Suggests on Fox That Biden's on Drugs (https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-trump-doctor-ronny-jackson-goes-on-hannity-to-suggest-bidens-on-memory-boosting-drugs?ref=home)
How did Dr. Ronny get his WH moniker "Candy Man"?
I'm also thinking along the lines of "no puppet, you're the puppet" in terms of a candidate displaying serious mental and physical signs of impairment.
Ayyup.
The Parscale business is another beautiful picture of what kind of people "the Best People" are whom Trump would select in his circle.
This guy is arrested half naked, intoxicated, holding on to his beer can and threatening to use his arsenal of firearms, while his wife, bruised and scared, but somehow in an itty bitty bikini, flees the premises.
However it's "libs" who drag the GOP thru the mud.
From something called the MaddowBlog: What Trump reportedly says in private about his Christian supporters (https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/what-trump-reportedly-says-private-about-his-christian-supporters-n1241335)
A lot of people are saying, etc.
Not Amy Coney Barrett.
Meanwhile, Moscow Mitch doesn't want female moderators for his debates.
Quote from: Todd on September 29, 2020, 10:38:34 AM
From something called the MaddowBlog: What Trump reportedly says in private about his Christian supporters (https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/what-trump-reportedly-says-private-about-his-christian-supporters-n1241335)
A lot of people are saying, etc.
Not Amy Coney Barrett.
Trump admires con men and has contempt for those he views as "suckers". I have no idea how much Barrett knows or whether it would be better for her to not know about it very strongly. What good would it do her to have such useless knowledge?
Oregon and Hawaii both have a requirement that when you register to vote that you abandon your old registration. You can't carry dual registrations.
Isn't it nice to know that, based on his financials alone, Donald Trump could never get a security clearance for any sensitive government position? — $410 million in personal debt coming due and another $100 million potential tax penalty if the perennial audit is ever finished. I mean, a person in those straights might be tempted to use his businesses to funnel foreign money into his pockets in exchange for favorable foreign policy decisions. It takes very little imagination to see that he could, for example, take in millions of dollars in ghost bookings at his D.C. hotel from Saudi Arabia, or profit from condo sales to Qatari interests, or from sales of Florida properties at $50 million over market value to Russian oligarchs. Just kidding! It takes no imagination at all, since all of these things have already happened. And it still hasn't been established who is backing his hundreds of millions in loans from Deutsche Bank.
To troll Trump, you cannot do much better than Biden & Harris releasing their 2019 tax returns on the day of a Biden-Trump debate.
Quote from: Herman on September 29, 2020, 10:08:14 AM
However it's "libs" who drag the GOP thru the mud.
Note to Trump fans: that ain't mud.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 29, 2020, 12:38:28 PM
And it still hasn't been established who is backing his hundreds of millions in loans from Deutsche Bank.
Eric Trump told a golf writer how they got money to build their golf courses back in 2014:
"I said, 'Eric, who's funding? I know no banks — because of the recession, the Great Recession — have touched a golf course. You know, no one's funding any kind of golf construction. It's dead in the water the last four or five years,'"
"And this is what he said. He said, 'Well, we don't rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.' I said, 'Really?' And he said, 'Oh, yeah. We've got some guys that really, really love golf, and they're really invested in our programs. We just go there all the time.'"
Quote from: Daverz on September 29, 2020, 02:08:22 PM
Note to Trump fans: that ain't mud.
Well, their sense of smell is severely impaired.
It looks like I'll be watching the debate. My presence is required to provide commentary in the vein of MST3K.
(https://www.toledoblade.com/image/2019/11/12/1140x_a10-7_cTC/FEA-MYSTERY-SCIENCE-THEATER.jpg)
Keep yapping, man.
Trump evading the q. y lapsing into ad hominem. and not rattling Biden.
Every time I see interviews of Trump supporters I get discouraged concerning the future.
I recall one interview of women who supported Trump. They said that one of the reasons they supported Trump because they disliked liberals because liberals talked down to them. That is what they said.
Well this afternoon I saw an interview of some farmers from Ohio. Every one of them supported Trump. And every one of them claimed that the virus was a hoax. I have lost one friend and my mother has lost two friends to this hoax.
Bill Maher is right. If you do not want people to call you stupid then stop acting stupid.
According to the latest polls I have seen 60% of Republicans deny evolution. Well that is stupid. If a person is offended that I look down on people who deny scientific reality too bad.
Trump in denial on the jobs comparison
Mr President, please stop.
Pathetic: Trump cannot even condemn white supremacists
"space force" for gawd's sake
No, no, that was a rhetorical question.
What do you believe about climate science? Butt-head cannot even give a straight answer.
A disgrace of a President: "This will not end well"
Of the two people on stage, only one answered the question Will you urge your supporters to stay calm?
The moderator Chris Wallace imploring the president to stop interrupting ....
Biden didn't look very good at the beginning in my immaculate opinion. He continued to stumble at times, though he got stronger as the night went on. All in all it was typical Biden averageness with some bright spots. Trump gave a characteristic performance. He's running against the election more than Biden.
"One thing that a friend just pointed out: There is no other Democratic candidate who could have made it through this shitshow with the patience and equanimity of Joe Biden. Others would have been baited even more than Joe was."
So what if Biden is not perfect. I still voted for him over Trump (Already mailed my ballot).
Early surge of Democratic mail voting sparks worry inside GOP (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/gop-mail-ballots/2020/09/29/131a06fc-0263-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea_story.html)
Democratic voters who have requested mail ballots — and returned them — greatly outnumber Republicans so far in key battleground states, causing alarm among GOP party leaders and strategists that President Trump's attacks on mail voting could be hurting the party's prospects to retain the White House and the Senate this year.
Of the more than 9 million voters who requested mail ballots through Monday in Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Maine and Iowa, the five battleground states where such data is publicly available, 52 percent were Democrats. Twenty-eight percent were Republicans, and 20 percent were unaffiliated.
Additional internal Democratic and Republican Party data obtained by The Washington Post shows a similar trend in Ohio, Minnesota, New Hampshire and Wisconsin.
Even more alarming to some Republicans, Democrats are also returning their ballots at higher rates than GOP voters in two of those states where that information is available: Florida and North Carolina.
I'm not surprised. Trump has managed to suppress the Repub mail in vote. Oh glorious gloriosity!
Quote from: drogulus on September 29, 2020, 07:26:04 PM
Early surge of Democratic mail voting sparks worry inside GOP (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/gop-mail-ballots/2020/09/29/131a06fc-0263-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea_story.html)
Democratic voters who have requested mail ballots — and returned them — greatly outnumber Republicans so far in key battleground states, causing alarm among GOP party leaders and strategists that President Trump's attacks on mail voting could be hurting the party's prospects to retain the White House and the Senate this year.
Of the more than 9 million voters who requested mail ballots through Monday in Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Maine and Iowa, the five battleground states where such data is publicly available, 52 percent were Democrats. Twenty-eight percent were Republicans, and 20 percent were unaffiliated.
Additional internal Democratic and Republican Party data obtained by The Washington Post shows a similar trend in Ohio, Minnesota, New Hampshire and Wisconsin.
Even more alarming to some Republicans, Democrats are also returning their ballots at higher rates than GOP voters in two of those states where that information is available: Florida and North Carolina.
I'm not surprised. Trump has managed to suppress the Repub mail in vote. Oh glorious gloriosity!
So much for the 4-D chess master....
Quote from: arpeggio on September 29, 2020, 07:05:36 PM
So what if Biden is not perfect. I still voted for him over Trump (Already mailed my ballot).
He conquered through endurance.
It was pretty funny.
Quote from: Dowder on September 29, 2020, 07:08:45 PM
Trump was Trump. Stop acting surprised.
Biden is 20 years past his political prime.
I'm not changing my mind having watched this.
Ya, Trump was a dufus. I'd expect idiots who support him to be idiots as well.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on September 29, 2020, 08:18:45 PM
Ya, Trump was a dufus. I'd expect idiots who support him to be idiots as well.
Candidate choice doesn't seem to be related to brains. The guy who is supposedly the smartest person in the US with an IQ of 195 is a Trump supporter.
It all just comes down to who people vibe with the most. That will then color their perception of the facts. I don't think people like to admit this.
Quote from: greg on September 29, 2020, 08:37:12 PM
It all just comes down to who people vibe with the most.
There are 2 kinds of people in the world, the kind that think there are 2 kinds of people in the world, and another kind I don't know about.
The one person who keeps talking about IQ here is also one of the most stupid, non-thinking posters.
Maybe he's got IQ backwards.
Nothing in his mind "seems to be connected to brains." I.e. he is unaware that even the stupid things one does, like blowing one's nose, are "connected to one's brains."
Of course the man he's so interested in who at some point long time ago scored IQ 195 is a conspiracy theorist who says Bush staged 9/11 and he's also an antisemite.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 29, 2020, 06:34:34 PM
A disgrace of a President: "This will not end well"
+1 although I know I'm an outsider.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on September 29, 2020, 08:18:45 PM
Ya, Trump was a dufus. I'd expect idiots who support him to be idiots as well.
Trumps supporters aren't idiots. They are just utterly ignorant and misled. They have been culturally indoctrinated into fearing all kind of things from immigrants to leftism to liberals. Hearing Trump speak against these things and offering easy "solutions" make them feel good and that makes them believe they are right about these things. Nobody ever teached them how facts don't care about our feelings.
Quote from: greg on September 29, 2020, 08:37:12 PM
Candidate choice doesn't seem to be related to brains. The guy who is supposedly the smartest person in the US with an IQ of 195 is a Trump supporter.
It just tells how little IQ means in many things. Understanding that Trump is unfit to be the president doesn't take high IQ. What it takes is a balanced person who is free from extreme cultural indoctrinations. It takes empathy. People with high IQ are often (but of course not always) sociopaths and psychopaths, because they learn (unfortunately) to manipulate other people thanks to their intelligence. Do you want sociopaths tell us who would be a good president?
Trump's message to a white supremacist group: "Stand back and stand by." Unlike most of what the loudmouthed toddler spewed and drooled last night, those words were carefully chosen. What does Trump want the Proud Boys to stand by for? You'd better figure it out because the Proud Boys and other armed militia and hate groups got the message loud and clear.
Some results of last night's grandpa fight:
(https://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2020/09/30/89a92a47-eb9b-4861-8f32-04ece084c853/thumbnail/620x287/4ffd4a1d7bfb750ae048ed7ea7239cc8/image001-10.png)
(https://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2020/09/30/d9ba4e4c-c61c-4f8e-aaf6-1a862f6c8a78/thumbnail/620x286/e7460457d858a50febc6f2b65557d698/image003-12.jpg)
Looks like Super-Creepy 46 pulled it off.
I do wonder how only 31% could have been entertained by the televised dumpster fire. I managed to watch a bit more than 30 minutes, which was above average. It was very entertaining.
I also learned something new later in the evening as the local new covered the results. Apparently, per the president, Stumptown has a sheriff. Who knew?
Quote from: Dowder on September 29, 2020, 07:08:45 PM
Trump was Trump. Stop acting surprised.
Biden is 20 years past his political prime.
I'm not changing my mind having watched this.
Neither am I - I'm still voting for Biden.
But I didn't think Biden came off very well against Trump. Trump's strategy was clearly to hammer away at Biden, persistently, incessantly, until the latter was unable to think straight or put two words together.
And just as clearly, that strategy succeeded. This was NOT the image Biden needed to project.
It's probably true, but irrelevant, that no one could really have come off better than Biden did, and that most people would have taken the bait and gone mud wrestling with the pig, gotten dirty for it, and not come away looking any better.
At least Biden kept his dignity. But he needed to appear strong, in command, and Presidential, and there I'm afraid he was not entirely successful.
The next debate will be very interesting... if there is a next debate.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 30, 2020, 03:39:26 AM
Trumps supporters aren't idiots. They are just utterly ignorant and misled. They have been culturally indoctrinated into fearing all kind of things from immigrants to leftism to liberals. Hearing Trump speak against these things and offering easy "solutions" make them feel good and that makes them believe they are right about these things. Nobody ever teached them how facts don't care about our feelings.
Spot on -- at least in most cases. There are also some who are quite intelligent, but support Trump because they fear that any Democratic president will be beholden to the left wing of their party and move the country further toward socialism. There are good reasons to believe that socialism will not work well in the U.S. (And there is also an irrational fear of the Red Menace that is still with us since the Cold War days.)
After Trump's performance last night anyone who continues to support this monster should suffer the consequences and called out for what they are.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on September 29, 2020, 08:18:45 PM
Ya, Trump was a dufus. I'd expect idiots who support him to be idiots as well.
He's 40 years past his mental prime, and lacks the intellectual acuity to distinguish [reporting the fact] from [being surprised]
Anyone who was looking forward to [lastnight's] debate hoping for greater clarity on the issues surely walked away disappointed. But anyone watching to better understand the contrast in character between the two men saw all they needed to see. Donald Trump behaved during the first presidential debate the same way he has behaved throughout his business and political career: running roughshod over norms, standards, morality and any sense of decency. And the American people noticed: a CNN post-debate poll showed Biden winning 60% to 28%, while a CBS/YouGov poll showed Biden winning by a smaller 7-point margin, but with significantly worse internals for Trump.
After agreeing to the debate format giving each candidate two minutes to speak on each question, Trump tried to bully, bluster and interrupt at every moment, rarely giving Biden a chance to finish a sentence. Debate moderator Chris Wallace seemed stunned and incapable of handling the situation, waiting until the debate was over halfway gone before telling Trump to observe the rules like a spoiled toddler, and becoming increasingly exasperated as the night continued. Trump's behavior was so abominable that much of the debate wasn't between Biden and Trump, but between Trump and Wallace, as Wallace tried without success to shame Trump into observing any sense of adult behavior.
Trump's hardcore supporters will no doubt be ecstatic, as they have thrilled to similar behavior over the course of his presidency. But Trump is currently well behind in the polls: he needs to do more than tickle the worst instincts of his base. He needs to win over the moderate and undecided voters he has lost, and there is no evidence he came close to accomplishing the task.
What? he needs to do more than be one of dowder's political wet dreams?!
MELTDOWN (https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/09/30/it-wasnt-a-debate-it-was-a-shameless-dangerous-tantrum-by-the-president/#.X3Qp_tTc_7U.twitter)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 30, 2020, 05:01:33 AM
Anyone who was looking forward to [lastnight's] debate hoping for greater clarity on the issues surely walked away disappointed. But anyone watching to better understand the contrast in character between the two men saw all they needed to see. Donald Trump behaved during the first presidential debate the same way he has behaved throughout his business and political career: running roughshod over norms, standards, morality and any sense of decency. And the American people noticed: a CNN post-debate poll showed Biden winning 60% to 28%, while a CBS/YouGov poll showed Biden winning by a smaller 7-point margin, but with significantly worse internals for Trump.
After agreeing to the debate format giving each candidate two minutes to speak on each question, Trump tried to bully, bluster and interrupt at every moment, rarely giving Biden a chance to finish a sentence. Debate moderator Chris Wallace seemed stunned and incapable of handling the situation, waiting until the debate was over halfway gone before telling Trump to observe the rules like a spoiled toddler, and becoming increasingly exasperated as the night continued. Trump's behavior was so abominable that much of the debate wasn't between Biden and Trump, but between Trump and Wallace, as Wallace tried without success to shame Trump into observing any sense of adult behavior.
Trump's hardcore supporters will no doubt be ecstatic, as they have thrilled to similar behavior over the course of his presidency. But Trump is currently well behind in the polls: he needs to do more than tickle the worst instincts of his base. He needs to win over the moderate and undecided voters he has lost, and there is no evidence he came close to accomplishing the task.
What? he needs to do more than be one of dowder's political wet dreams?!
MELTDOWN (https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/09/30/it-wasnt-a-debate-it-was-a-shameless-dangerous-tantrum-by-the-president/#.X3Qp_tTc_7U.twitter)
"Trump himself tweeted an image implying that he had to debate both Biden and Wallace–the self-pitying whine of a loser who knows he lost, and all the more pathetic from a man who attempted to bully his opponent off the stage and is attempting to bully his opponent's voters out of participating in the election."
One thing that really scares me is that anyone who can stand up to Trump would be a bigger monster than he is.
Quote from: arpeggio on September 30, 2020, 05:13:40 AM
One thing that really scares me is that anyone who can stand up to Trump would be a bigger monster than he is.
Biden was not a very good debater against Dem rivals, none of whom were monsters. Biden is adequate in debates, so if he has front runner status he can hold on to it.
A condition for the next debate should be that, during answers to questions and before open discussion (if that format is continued), silence should be enforced electronically. My preference, for Trump especially, would be electroshock to the testicles, but I suppose cutting the mic of one candidate might also work.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 30, 2020, 03:39:26 AM
Trumps supporters aren't idiots. They are just utterly ignorant and misled. They have been culturally indoctrinated into fearing all kind of things from immigrants to leftism to liberals. Hearing Trump speak against these things and offering easy "solutions" make them feel good and that makes them believe they are right about these things. Nobody ever teached them how facts don't care about our feelings.
The possibility that people can be culturally indoctrinated into supporting leftist, and support leftist solutions that make them feel good and make them believe they are right about those things, has occurred to you, I hope.
Not only do facts not care about the feelings of MAGA folks. They also don't care about the feelings of leftists.
The important thing to understand about Trump's taxes and the debate is that neither told us anything important that we did not know, or should not have known, before. At most the supplied details to fill in or confirm what we knew before.
Quote from: Herman on September 29, 2020, 10:54:40 PM
The one person who keeps talking about IQ here is also one of the most stupid, non-thinking posters.
Oh, saying something critical. This statement must be true! Because it sounds very confident and aggressive.
Quote from: Herman on September 29, 2020, 10:54:40 PM
Nothing in his mind "seems to be connected to brains." I.e. he is unaware that even the stupid things one does, like blowing one's nose, are "connected to one's brains."
Wtf? lol
Quote from: Herman on September 29, 2020, 10:54:40 PM
Of course the man he's so interested in who at some point long time ago scored IQ 195 is a conspiracy theorist who says Bush staged 9/11 and he's also an antisemite.
I didn't hear about this guy until a few days ago. And didn't know about those two things.
"Of course he's so interested in"- what a "stupid, non-thinking" thing to say.
And we continue the everflowing pattern of Politics discussion life:
Poster A: points out opinion
Poster B: points out fact
Poster C: makes nonsense personal attack on Poster B
Productive discussions are always fun. ;)
Quote from: JBS on September 30, 2020, 06:43:24 AM
The important thing to understand about Trump's taxes and the debate is that neither told us anything important that we did not know, or should not have known, before. At most the supplied details to fill in or confirm what we knew before.
No, we did learn new things: The extent and persistence of Trump's failure in business and that his major source of (legal and publicly acknowledged) revenue in recent years came from playing a successful businessman on "reality" TV. We also learned that he likely committed tax fraud again (this time within the time limit of the statute of limitations) and that he might be liable for a $100 million penalty. Or did you know all of that?
It would be best to call off the next two debates.
People have seen enough.
Quote from: krummholz on September 30, 2020, 04:47:07 AM
Spot on -- at least in most cases.
Thanks! ;)
Quote from: krummholz on September 30, 2020, 04:47:07 AMThere are also some who are quite intelligent, but support Trump because they fear that any Democratic president will be beholden to the left wing of their party and move the country further toward socialism. There are good reasons to believe that socialism will not work well in the U.S. (And there is also an irrational fear of the Red Menace that is still with us since the Cold War days.)
Well, Biden won't move the country "further toward socialism." He is a firm centrist corporatist. That's the problem! We know this by looking at his long political career and his current rethoric. He rejects most social democratic ideas of the progressives. He is FAR from a socialist. Biden is actually a moderate Republican, but the Republicans have moved so far right... Of course socialism would work in the US in areas where "socialism" works elsewhere such as fire department. Surely you don't say the fire department doesn't work in the in the US and should be totally privatized? The US needs to move left, a lot. That doesn't mean socialism. It means becoming more like Nordic countries which have great mixture of capitalism and socialism (social democracy) and kick the ass of most other countries including the US.
Quote from: greg on September 30, 2020, 06:56:33 AM
I didn't hear about this guy until a few days ago. And didn't know about those two things.
That's your standard defense for the stupid things you post.
"I didn't know..."
You keep posting you're so super-smart and yet you keep posting things you have not checked, but just happened to run into.
Your constant theme is education is no good; people don't use their "brains" it's all just random or "vibe". One problem is you don't know what "brains" do.
In reality most people do spend some time thinking about life choices, and even about whom they are going to vote for. Will candidate A help them or hurt them? Let's check what he or she said. It's often not a matter of simple likes or dislikes.
Sure there are people who vote for a candidate "whom they'd like to have a beer with" or just because there's some superficial thing that appeals to them. But these are the low-info and low-intelligence voters who often get lost on their way to the voting station, and you appear to be one of those, in spite of your continued boasting of your IQ.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 30, 2020, 07:06:13 AM
No, we did learn new things: The extent and persistence of Trump's failure in business and that his major source of (legal and publicly acknowledged) revenue in recent years came from playing a successful businessman on "reality" TV. We also learned that he likely committed tax fraud again (this time within the time limit of the statute of limitations) and that he might be liable for a $100 million penalty. Or did you know all of that?
Let me repeat my last sentence, since you seem not to have noticed it. [Corrected a typo as I quote myself.]
. At most they supplied details to fill in or confirm what we knew before.
And, on the lines of Trump being Trump: As he does every day, he gibbered: "In Europe, they live, they have forest cities, they're called forest cities. They maintain their forest, they manage their forest. I was w/ the head of a major country, it's a forest city. He said, 'Sir, we have trees that are far more - they ignite much easier than California'"
Quote from: Herman on September 30, 2020, 07:20:44 AM
It would be best to call off the next two debates.
People have seen enough.
I don't think the debates need to be called off from a "view from nowhere". How a participant chooses to sabotage the ostensible reason for the debate and attack the moderator and the election is good information to have, and I'm not bothered by the redundancy of most of it. Many people don't tune in to politics until quite late in the process.
Quote from: Herman on September 30, 2020, 07:30:45 AM
Can you explain what you meant by posting that a guy who at some point in school had an insane high IQ score is a Trump fan?
IMO, a smart person should feel lukewarm at the most about both candidates. But if that guy is a huge fan of one candidate, maybe I'm wrong about thinking about it that way.
I was responding to the poster saying that all Trump fans are idiots. Just pointing out that is wrong... same would go for Biden, it's not candidate-specific, I'm interested in the concept, not the people.
Unless someone considers liking something "dumb," which would stray from the traditional meaning of intelligence.
Quote from: Herman on September 30, 2020, 07:30:45 AM
You keep posting you're so super-smart and yet you keep posting things you have not checked, but just happened to run into.
I tried to only bring that up once. Totally in self-defense because of being attacked like I'm dumb.
Quote from: Herman on September 30, 2020, 07:30:45 AM
Your constant theme is education is no good;
What? lol
Not sure when I said this, especially as someone that has a degree.
Quote from: Herman on September 30, 2020, 07:30:45 AM
people don't use their "brains" it's all just random or "vibe".
It mostly seems to be that way the more I observe this stuff, yep.
When people decide to join the tribe, I mean, political party, critical thinking (if it was there in the first place) gets replaced by attack and defense, mostly.
Why do people bring up negative facts about the candidate they hate when if their loved candidate did the same thing, they would be on defense about them?
There's much more than logical facts going on, it's body language, demeanor, etc. that draws people to candidates that they end up liking, or perhaps the whole party as a whole, that they like.
Whichever party gives the person the most good "feels" will win them over, and that seems to be somewhat related to personality traits (there are studies and polls on this).
Quote from: Herman on September 30, 2020, 07:30:45 AM
Sure there are people who vote for a candidate "whom they'd like to have a beer with" or just because there's some superficial thing that appeals to them. But these are the low-info and low-intelligence voters who often get lost on their way to the voting station, and you appear to be one of those, in spite of your continued boasting of your IQ.
I'm not boasting, but thanks for mentioning it.
Maybe try to have the awareness of what is going on as you read people's posts. Why do certain things matter when they guy they don't like says them? Would it matter as much if someone else said them, or did the thing? Would they believe the negative things said about them as easily? If the guy they hated were on their team, what would they think of them?
I'm a little surprised that it didn't end up in a physical brawl and that Biden kept his cool as much as he did. It must have been so hard to concentrate with that infantile moron (and my apologies to the other morons out there) shouting at him most of the time. Even a Republican spokesperson said Chris Wallace should have muted his mic! Sadly, that would only affect the TV audio and wouldn't actually silence him live. Perhaps they should have someone standing by with a muzzle during the next debate.
Quote from: greg on September 30, 2020, 06:56:33 AM
I didn't hear about this guy until a few days ago.
Really? I thought Langan was a famous man in the US (like Marilyn vos Savant). I have know about at least him for 10 years. The man is clearly very smart, but also strange and has some weird ideas so I'd take the man with a grain of salt.
Quote from: Toccata and Fugue on September 30, 2020, 08:17:47 AM
I'm a little surprised that it didn't end up in a physical brawl...
WWE presents:
Bragging Rights 2020
Main Event:
Trump vs Biden
Another measure by which Biden won: Democrats see fundraising boom following wild debate between Trump and Biden.
I'm actually still laughing at being called "non-thinking." That was unexpectedly funny. :D
Actually being able to turn off my brain would be a nice skill to have. It's very difficult.
Even when young I took several hours each night to fall asleep due to overthinking. And still nowadays it takes a while to fall asleep even when dead tired.
When I used to mow the grass each week, somehow I caught myself in the stupid habit of thinking about big metaphysical questions during the whole hourlong session, totally pointless and I wish I would stop and just become a happy robot for a bit.
I still have the problem of my mind wandering a lot when watching shows/playing video games to the point where I'm starting to replay/rewatch a lot of stuff because I don't remember what happened, because the entire time it's like having someone sitting next to you commenting on it and coming up with questions and ideas constantly.
Of course Herman will find a way to spin that into a personal attack when I post something he doesn't like.
Quote from: Toccata and Fugue on September 30, 2020, 08:17:47 AM
I'm a little surprised that it didn't end up in a physical brawl and that Biden kept his cool as much as he did.
I'm still waiting for them to kiss each other passionately on live TV in order to ease the tension. Now THAT would be hilarious.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 30, 2020, 08:26:40 AM
Really? I thought Langan was a famous man in the US (like Marilyn vos Savant). I have know about at least him for 10 years. The man is clearly very smart, but also strange and has some weird ideas so I'd take the man with a grain of salt.
Yeah, just found out about him from a random youtube video popping up.
But it does tie back into what you said earlier, I think (if i understood correctly) ultimately politics is an idealistic thing, right?
Would you say that for politics, the idealism is the seed and the trunk of the tree, and logic/facts are the branches? Or would you disagree?
Also, what I would distinguish about someone being 195 IQ and also antisemitic: something like that isn't technically related to IQ, that is also idealism. It's like hating a composer so much you want to get rid of all of their music from the world. Nothing logical about it. Sure, he can explain "why" he hates them, but ultimately hatred is just a feeling, and he would probably try to throw out some facts to appear "right," but if you don't have that same hatred, then they just don't matter (as in this case, they shouldn't matter).
If his feelings, and everyone else's feelings, were based on logic (rather than the other way around), then whatever logic he would present to other people would surely convince them as the superior logic, and as a result, the correct way to feel, considering his logical skills from high IQ.
Hating jews is just a (strong) (non)preference. But I would be surprised if he actually thought committing a second genocide would be beneficial in any way. Obviously attempting to do such a thing would only backfire. Which would be non-logical.
(https://scontent.fsac1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120398456_2742052636073712_1562137341170780677_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=9kDzHm6fBvUAX93-qz_&_nc_ht=scontent.fsac1-1.fna&oh=04fd625ac63cb7c751aca9758d7fbd90&oe=5F9B76AA)
Quote from: Toccata and Fugue on September 30, 2020, 08:17:47 AM
I'm a little surprised that it didn't end up in a physical brawl and that Biden kept his cool as much as he did. It must have been so hard to concentrate with that infantile moron (and my apologies to the other morons out there) shouting at him most of the time. Even a Republican spokesperson said Chris Wallace should have muted his mic! Sadly, that would only affect the TV audio and wouldn't actually silence him live. Perhaps they should have someone standing by with a muzzle during the next debate.
Sound proof booths.
What made me think about the facts vs. feelings/candidate support thing was watching the livestream of the debate on the NBC channel.
They had a live fact-checker on the stream. Cool.
So when Biden made a statement, the fact-checker said it was "halfway true." Not "halfway false."
When Trump said something, it was "mostly false," not "partially true."
They don't bring up the video of Biden calling the military he was speaking to "stupid bastards." They could have said it's true, and linked the video. Why not?
Biden supporters, is this video a problem or not?
My personal opinion is neutral, it could be he was trying what he thought was "military speak" or whatever to appeal to his audience (seems to be a common practice on the left)- which is not a bad thing. But it could also be that he is trying to insult them. If you support Biden, it is probably the former. If you don't, it's probably the latter.
But the idea here is that people use facts are guided more by their feelings, whether they know it or not. After all, why bring up certain facts or dwell on certain facts more than others? Especially if it is something being said which doesn't affect you personally.
If you watch the final minutes of the debate again, when Wallace's question about acquiescing in the outcome was supposedly answered, it's pretty clear that my idea about fights around voting locations are encouraged by Trump.
He was talking about people going in to "watch" the voting "very carefully". I.e. not give people any privacy. These will be Proud Boy types and guys in pseudo military gear and they will try to make voting hard for people they expect to vote D.
The other thing is Trump was talking about being okay with "the Election" but not with "the ballots". As if these are two different things.
He's been laying the groundwork for calling the election on the night of November 3rd and this is part of it. He's going to call the mail-in votes illegal and not part of the election. And have the SCOTUS decide. And there's nothing you can do about it. He's got Bill Barr, the SCOTUS, and Squi.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 30, 2020, 08:37:23 AM
Another measure by which Biden won: Democrats see fundraising boom following wild debate between Trump and Biden.
I'm still cautious about trying to glean anything about outcomes from fundraising figures. In elections, numbers matter far more than amounts.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 30, 2020, 07:30:07 AM
Well, Biden won't move the country "further toward socialism." He is a firm centrist corporatist. That's the problem! We know this by looking at his long political career and his current rethoric. He rejects most social democratic ideas of the progressives. He is FAR from a socialist. Biden is actually a moderate Republican, but the Republicans have moved so far right... Of course socialism would work in the US in areas where "socialism" works elsewhere such as fire department. Surely you don't say the fire department doesn't work in the in the US and should be totally privatized? The US needs to move left, a lot. That doesn't mean socialism. It means becoming more like Nordic countries which have great mixture of capitalism and socialism (social democracy) and kick the ass of most other countries including the US.
Agreed about Biden - he's a moderate, period. People who are concerned about the politics of his ticket are more concerned about Harris, and the very real possibility that Biden could be forced by health issues, mental fitness, etc. to resign at some point during his term. Of course Trump wants to paint him as a socialist, or a puppet of the socialist wing, but that hasn't stuck.
Moving the U.S. to the left will happen when it's time. It isn't time yet. A microcosm of what could happen is going on now in my corner of Vermont. The college town I live in is very progressive, but the surrounding countryside is decidedly farther to the right. There has always been a tension between transplants like me, and old guard Vermonters. We have a Republican governor who was lambasted by the latter after signing Vermont's first real piece of gun control legislation. This happened in the wake of an aborted school shooting in a small rural town near Rutland. Now we have had a rush of incidents where BLM signs and rainbow flags were stolen off of lawns and porches. All this was inevitable I think: you had people with an established lifestyle, who had lived in the state for generations. Then people moved in from the big East Coast cities, starting with the back to the land movement in the 70s. They now outnumber the original Vermonters by a wide margin. A Red state has turned decidedly Blue by force of numbers. The old guard does not have the numbers to resist at the ballot box, but many are very angry and are resorting to illegal acts.
If the concerns of less visible people are ignored, they will find a way to make themselves heard. The backlash will be unpleasant to say the least. That is part of the reason we have Trump. Biden understands the need for compromise and bipartisanship. IMO that is what we need now, not radical change, if the U.S. is not to be torn apart.
Quote from: drogulus on September 30, 2020, 07:48:24 AM
I don't think the debates need to be called off from a "view from nowhere". How a participant chooses to sabotage the ostensible reason for the debate and attack the moderator and the election is good information to have, and I'm not bothered by the redundancy of most of it. Many people don't tune in to politics until quite late in the process.
Yes. Let Trump be the dumpster fire in front of the camera that he is. Let him continue to aggressively dissuade people from voting for him.
Well, we shall see: 'The Commission on Presidential Debates announced Wednesday that it would add "additional structure" to the remaining faceoffs between President Trump and Democratic nominee Joe Biden after Tuesday night's chaotic clash in Cleveland, saying "more orderly discussion is needed."'
95 minutes of proof that the nation has slipped into irredeemable darkness.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 30, 2020, 11:16:33 AM
95 minutes of proof that the nation has slipped into irredeemable darkness.
Heavy lol.
So tons of pessimism after Trump's next four years are over, if he wins?
It was a funny disaster, though.
What I don't care for, especially, is Trump constantly doing quick personal attacks and being too aggressive, reminds me of how Herman posts. It's an emotional appeal, if people see someone on the attack while the other person is defending, it looks like the one attacking is winning.
Taking one thing at a time is a better approach.
Quote from: greg on September 30, 2020, 11:34:43 AMWhat I don't care for, especially, is Trump constantly doing quick personal attacks and being too aggressive, reminds me of how Herman posts. It's an emotional appeal, if people see someone on the attack while the other person is defending, it looks like the one attacking is winning.
A keen observation.
Fortunately, there are two more presidential debates, and the Pence-Harris (hopeful) smackdown to keep people online, posting and tweeting.
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 30, 2020, 09:09:33 AM
Sound proof booths.
I like that and it seems feasible. Each candidate's mic should be muted while the other is speaking.
Chances are Trump would walk over to Biden's mike and keep talking.
Kind of similar to the way he started to hover behind Hillary.
This man is truly a nutcase.
Quote from: greg on September 30, 2020, 11:34:43 AM
What I don't care for, especially, is Trump constantly doing quick personal attacks and being too aggressive ... . It's an emotional appeal, if people [idiots] see someone on the attack while the other person is defending, it looks like the one attacking is winning.
That's better ^ ^ ^.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54359993
Trump tells far right to 'stand down' amid white supremacy row
"Oh, so people reacted negatively to my shit? I'll just lie and claim I meant the reverse." :laugh:
Biden should have said, "you're a child. You can't control yourself. You have no self-control. You have no dignity."
Quote from: milk on September 30, 2020, 02:43:51 PM
Biden should have said, "you're a child. You can't control yourself. You have no self-control. You have no dignity."
I agree that would have been ideal. It's also how he's viewed by most people who watched the debate.
(https://indyweek.com/downloads/80548/download/Don-Jr.-Enlist-Now-e1601385743216.png?cb=fb362dfbe7be9636bfa2522d40b3adfa&w=1000&h=)
Where do I sign up and can I have some?
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 30, 2020, 09:09:33 AM
Sound proof booths.
Padded rooms have good sound insulation... 0:)
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/J9KGaEbMn7BBUpF6051ShQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTY0Ny45NDMyNjI0MTEzNDc1/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/_YEGUR9dfvTEQJSgKJoGGQ--~B/aD01NzE7dz04NDY7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en-us/salon_articles_879/bf2af57eff2dbc57a5137d4544954d19)
Chomp
Russian trolls get paid to post these talking points; you seem to be doing this for free.
Quote from: Dowder on September 30, 2020, 09:07:25 PM
Blah blah blah.
Biden looked liked an old feeble man [...]
He did, and I have little doubt that that was Trump's strategy, to make Biden appear like a senile dotard. Because he knew that Biden has a lifelong problem with stuttering, and he knows how to push the right buttons to bring that problem to the fore. What you saw, almost certainly, was Biden struggling mightily with that problem, but not having enough CPU cycles left over under Trump's constant assaults to organize his thoughts properly.
Quote
But the libs already know this. You're voting for a Kamala Harris presidency because old Joe has no intention of staying in office due to his....... cognitive decline.
More than "libs" are voting for Biden. Some of us are moderates (including several prominent lifelong Republicans), and we're well aware that because of Biden's age, a Harris presidency is a strong possibility from some point forward in Biden's first term. Why should that be cause to vote for Trump instead? Should we be afraid because Kamala Harris is a black woman? Because she is somewhat to the left of Biden politically? At this point I will vote even for someone whose politics I disagree with (somewhat), to have a competent and humane leader in the White House. After 4 years, one thing we can be sure of is that that Donald Trump is neither humane nor competent.
Quote from: Herman on October 01, 2020, 02:48:36 AM
Russian trolls get paid to post these talking points; you seem to be doing this for free.
How do we know Dowder does it for free? What if Ben Shapiro is his boss?
Quote from: krummholz on September 30, 2020, 09:59:52 AM
Agreed about Biden - he's a moderate, period. People who are concerned about the politics of his ticket are more concerned about Harris, and the very real possibility that Biden could be forced by health issues, mental fitness, etc. to resign at some point during his term. Of course Trump wants to paint him as a socialist, or a puppet of the socialist wing, but that hasn't stuck.
Harris is perhaps just a little left of Biden, but not much. That's one reason why Harris was a suitable choice for Biden's VP. Black, woman and not much different in politics (safe for the oligarchs). Trump attacks Biden as if he was Biden AND Bernie. It doesn't work well, because Biden was the VP for eight years and the guns were not taken away. Trump had good political instincts four years ago. Not this time. He has lost the "outsider" advantage in the eyes of people. He is now an "insider" and the country is in chaos on
his watch, not "great again" as he promised.
Quote from: krummholz on September 30, 2020, 09:59:52 AMMoving the U.S. to the left will happen when it's time. It isn't time yet.
Why isn't it time yet? It has been time for decades! The oligarchs just want to keep robbing everyone blind! Isn't the income inequality huge enough? Isn't enough Americans dying because they don't have access to basic healthcare? There is no excuse to delay progress that is badly needed. Now the fear is if Trump fills Ginsburg's seat the US might move to a new
Lochner era and pretty much all progress will be stopped for 30-40 years while workers will have practically zero rights. So is it time for medicare for all in 2050? Or 2060? Meanwhile millions of American will die for now having the healthcare they need. What is the country waiting for?
Quote from: krummholz on September 30, 2020, 09:59:52 AM
If the concerns of less visible people are ignored, they will find a way to make themselves heard. The backlash will be unpleasant to say the least. That is part of the reason we have Trump. Biden understands the need for compromise and bipartisanship. IMO that is what we need now, not radical change, if the U.S. is not to be torn apart.
Decades of compromise and bipartisanship made president Trump possible and without radical change there will be more Trump-like presidents. The left and right can be united in economic issues because on both sides the workers get screwed by the current system. There are things the left and right (the top 1 % excluded) and agree about, for example ending the wars. Unfortunately Biden is not known for ending wars. He is known for starting wars and serving the military industry complex, even more so that Trump!
Biden has to win, because Trump must be removed from office, but Biden's presidency will solve almost NOTHING. It's four years of status quo.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 01, 2020, 03:59:45 AM
Harris is perhaps just a little left of Biden, but not much. That's one reason why Harris was a suitable choice for Biden's VP. Black, woman and not much different in politics (safe for the oligarchs). Trump attacks Biden as if he was Biden AND Bernie. It doesn't work well, because Biden was the VP for eight years and the guns were not taken away. Trump had good political instincts four years ago. Not this time. He has lost the "outsider" advantage in the eyes of people. He is now an "insider" and the country is in chaos on his watch, not "great again" as he promised.
I think you have it mostly right. What motivates primary voters often comes down to their perceptions of what other voters will accept, the notorious beauty contest factor. This will appear to be a kind of "inner oligarch".
Trump tells you what he's thinking best when he doesn't know he's doing it, like when he wants Biden to take a drug test, more "no puppet...".
Quote from: Dowder on October 01, 2020, 05:58:29 AM
This is another go to by libs to dismiss debate and end free speech. Any and all Trump supporters must be paid Russian trolls.
Whatever. I don't have to defend myself from that kind of malarky.
He thinks you are
not a paid Russian troll. I'm sure you believe Russian trolls are paid to tell the truth, and you are free to say the same things.
Quote from: Dowder on October 01, 2020, 05:58:29 AM
This is another go to by libs to dismiss debate and end free speech. Any and all Trump supporters must be paid Russian trolls.
Whatever. I don't have to defend myself from that kind of malarky.
No, you don't. In addition, that's not what I said. I said you are doing stuff for free other people get paid for.
To vary on a Trump quote, I'm not sure that makes you smart.
Both participants in Monday nights debate looked their age, i.e. old.
The funny thing is however that Trump managed to look like a six-year old, too, vociferously demanding attention all the time, not paying any attention to the rules and big on the "nya nya you're the puppet".
There are a lot of those in old folks' homes.
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 06:40:38 AM
He thinks you are not a paid Russian troll. I'm sure you believe Russian trolls are paid to tell the truth, and you are free to say the same things.
The confusion occurs when someone so faithfully repeats Cozy Bear's talking points that it's indistinguishable from the original troll talk.
Dowder,
You are condoning the acts of a racist who is threatening a civil war.
Even Mitch McConnell was critical of Trump concerning the Proud Boys or are you going to call him a "clown" as well.
There are many conservatives of conscious who are voting for Trump. I saw an interview of a retired colonel army ranger who is a life long Republican who is supporting Biden.
No responsible person is taking your playground arguments seriously.
Blah blah blah.
Trump looked like a drunken asshole.
"Tuesday night's debate was a comedown for many Republicans who were flying high after the Senate GOP conference quickly unified behind Trump's Supreme Court pick. Instead of spending Wednesday touting nominee Amy Coney Barrett, they spent the day fielding questions about the president's refusal to directly rebuke white supremacist groups or to commit to a peaceful transfer of power.
The first media question at an event Senate Republican women planned Wednesday morning to highlight Barrett's nomination to the Supreme Court was about Trump's debate performance and whether it would hurt Senate Republican candidates with female voters."
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 06:40:38 AM
He thinks you are not a paid Russian troll. I'm sure you believe Russian trolls are paid to tell the truth, and you are free to say the same things.
Not much gratification in clarifying things for someone with too little wit to understand plain English, eh?
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 01, 2020, 06:52:59 AM
The confusion occurs when someone so faithfully repeats Cozy Bear's talking points that it's indistinguishable from the original troll talk.
And "What Lies?" Mini Bear mistakes regurgitating trollspeak for "debate."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2020, 07:48:32 AM
Blah blah blah.
Trump looked like a drunken asshole.
"Tuesday night's debate was a comedown for many Republicans who were flying high after the Senate GOP conference quickly unified behind Trump's Supreme Court pick. Instead of spending Wednesday touting nominee Amy Coney Barrett, they spent the day fielding questions about the president's refusal to directly rebuke white supremacist groups or to commit to a peaceful transfer of power.
The first media question at an event Senate Republican women planned Wednesday morning to highlight Barrett's nomination to the Supreme Court was about Trump's debate performance and whether it would hurt Senate Republican candidates with female voters."
I assume he was talking/drama-performing to undecided voters, who tend to have lowest education and political knowledge, rather than the entire nation or the GOP voters.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 08:00:17 AM
I assume he was talking/drama-performing to undecided voters, who tend to have lowest education and political knowledge, rather than the entire nation or the GOP voters.
That erroneously imputes strategy to a President who is just id on wilted watercress.
[ "People close to him are blunt that the president knows he's losing and is scared of it." ]
That's too hopeful for me.
I think he's spending his time figuring out with Barr how to invalidate the elections, so as to come out on top.
Only the Proud Boys can take pride in Trump's debate hooliganism (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-did-get-one-thing-right-this-isnt-going-to-end-well/2020/09/29/d1a68d60-029b-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea_story.html?itid=lk_inline_manual_19)
This Proud Boys thing is just stupid. Come on, people.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54359993
He later says he doesn't know who the Proud Boys are, and tells them to "stand back and let law enforcement do their job."
Another example of being inarticulate and so the people who hate you interpret the worst thing possible to use as ammo.
And it's questionable about them being a white supremacist group. Their focus seems to be more on traditional values. And their leader is Afro-Cuban... seems if it were more race focused, they would only accept white people.
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
And it's questionable about them being a white supremacist group. Their focus seems to be more on traditional values. And their leader is Afro-Cuban... seems if it were more race focused, they would only accept white people.
Sorry, but there's no doubt about who they are:
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys
--Bruce
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
This Proud Boys thing is just stupid. Come on, people.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54359993
He later says he doesn't know who the Proud Boys are, and tells them to "stand back and let law enforcement do their job."
Another example of being inarticulate and so the people who hate you interpret the worst thing possible to use as ammo.
And it's questionable about them being a white supremacist group. Their focus seems to be more on traditional values. And their leader is Afro-Cuban... seems if it were more race focused, they would only accept white people.
This is being wilfully naive. Making an extreme statement and putting out something different 24 hrs later is standard Trump strategy. It has nothing to do with being inarticulate. He gives extremist groups the go ahead, right in broad daylight, and, after some protests of GOP senators who are fighting an election, he acts as if he didn't mean it this way. However there is such a long pattern of encouraging violence, there is no denying.
Questioning whether Proud Boys is or is not a white supremacist group is just too stupid for words. "Traditional values", please.
Quote from: Herman on October 01, 2020, 09:31:00 AM
This is being wilfully naive. Making an extreme statement and putting out something different 24 hrs later is standard Trump strategy. It has nothing to do with being inarticulate. He gives extremist groups the go ahead, right in broad daylight, and, after some protests of GOP senators who are fighting an election, he acts as if he didn't mean it this way. However there is such a long pattern of encouraging violence, there is no denying.
Questioning whether Proud Boys is or is not a white supremacist group is just too stupid for words. "Traditional values", please.
Yes. Trial and error, and oscillating tactics.
Quote from: Herman on October 01, 2020, 08:18:32 AM
That's too hopeful for me.
I think he's spending his time figuring out with Barr how to invalidate the elections, so as to come out on top.
Not enough to know that President Snowflake is skeered, no.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 10:07:59 AM
Yes. Trial and error, and oscillating tactics.
It's not trial and error and the tactics don't oscillate. It's a consistent pattern and strategy. He states the message he wants the white supremacists to act on, knowing that they know to ignore the inevitable walk-back that follows after flack from the media and more moderate voices. The hate groups also know to ignore any words of conciliation read halfheartedly off of a teleprompter.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 01, 2020, 10:38:09 AM
It's not trial and error and the tactics don't oscillate. It's a consistent pattern and strategy. He states the message he wants the white supremacists to act on, knowing that they know to ignore the inevitable walk-back that follows after flack from the media and more moderate voices. The hate groups also know to ignore any words of conciliation read halfheartedly off of a teleprompter.
Filtering out the "ventriloquist"
Parscale -2-
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/01/brad-parscale-judge-orders-guns-kept-from-former-trump-campaign-boss.html
They took his guns away! :'(
Next stop probably rehab. :laugh: Is there a MAGA equivalent of the Oprah TV show he could cry on?
Gentlemen,
We all owe Dowder an apology.
I have been watching interviews of Trump supporters on the television including one undecided genius. The undecided person sounded like a Trump supporter who was to embarrassed to admit he was one. Dowder is ten levels up the evolutionary scale compared to these morons. Of course most of them do not believe in evolution.
What a paranoid ignorant bunch. One of them actually said that Trump won the popular vote in 2016 and voter fraud was the reason he did not. Along with those who think (?) that the pandemic is fake there is no way I can catalogue every piece of nonsense that they believe in.
Quote from: Herman on October 01, 2020, 09:31:00 AM
This is being wilfully naive. Making an extreme statement and putting out something different 24 hrs later is standard Trump strategy. It has nothing to do with being inarticulate. He gives extremist groups the go ahead, right in broad daylight, and, after some protests of GOP senators who are fighting an election, he acts as if he didn't mean it this way. However there is such a long pattern of encouraging violence, there is no denying.
Questioning whether Proud Boys is or is not a white supremacist group is just too stupid for words. "Traditional values", please.
That's something someone with TDS would say.
TDS people : "OMG he's dog whistling!!! Brace yourselves, the military is gonna kill all the non-whites!!!"
Far-right deranged segment of the Trump fanbase: "He is? AWESOME!!!"
Neutral: "He's too proud to admit he doesn't know about the group during the debate, so he just rattles whatever comes to mind and misspeaks"
But it's like talking to a cultist. They are sooooooo convinced their extreme interpretation of minor things is the truth.
Quote from: Brewski on October 01, 2020, 09:19:02 AM
Sorry, but there's no doubt about who they are:
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys
--Bruce
Way too long to read, i see the questionable quotes though.
Sounds like they having a Muslim leader probably isn't gonna happen any time soon. Still don't know why they'd have a black leader for a white supremacist group, though.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2020, 10:41:47 AM
Filtering out the "ventriloquist"
Well, they're definitely listening to the dummy.
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 05:51:49 AM
I think you have it mostly right. What motivates primary voters often comes down to their perceptions of what other voters will accept, the notorious beauty contest factor. This will appear to be a kind of "inner oligarch".
"Inner oligarch" is an interesting concept for sure... ;)
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 01:11:05 PM
Way too long to read,
If you really don't like being called stupid or ignorant then stop saying and doing this.
Quote from: Dowder on October 01, 2020, 05:58:29 AM
This is another go to by libs to dismiss debate and end free speech. Any and all Trump supporters must be paid Russian trolls.
Whatever. I don't have to defend myself from that kind of malarky.
It depends on what Trump supporters say. This has nothing to do with free speech. Free speech doesn't mean freedom of criticism. It means you are allowed to express your opinions freely. It also means other people have the freedom to criticize you.
Quote from: Dowder on October 01, 2020, 06:13:18 AM
Talk about a crooked and rigged system.
There's something we can agree about. 0:)
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 01:11:05 PM
That's something someone with TDS would say.
TDS people : "OMG he's dog whistling!!! Brace yourselves, the military is gonna kill all the non-whites!!!"
Far-right deranged segment of the Trump fanbase: "He is? AWESOME!!!"
Neutral: "He's too proud to admit he doesn't know about the group during the debate, so he just rattles whatever comes to mind and misspeaks"
Your version of "neutral" is the one that doesn't understand how Trump works. The Proud Boys had no trouble understanding him. Repub office holders understood. People who watched the debate understood. Conservatives and liberals understood. What people know about Trump is he never goes against anyone who supports him. He thinks QAnon loves him so he won't say anything against them.
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 01:11:05 PM
Neutral: "He's too proud to admit he doesn't know about the group during the debate, so he just rattles whatever comes to mind and misspeaks"
The president being so ignorant as to not knowing at this point about The Proud Boys is even bigger problem than a "dog whistler president."
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54380684
Texas governor cuts back on voting locations weeks before election
Republican Governor Greg Abbott said the move would stop illegal voting.
Critics have accused Mr Abbott of voter suppression, pointing out that in some cases this means thousands of voters must go to one clerk's office.
Coming weeks before the election, the order requires counties to close any satellite ballot drop-off locations.
Texas is the second most populous US state and it would be a big win for candidates during the 3 November election. The state has been reliably Republican in modern presidential contests.
Many more voters this time around are expected to vote by post or drop off their ballots due to the pandemic.
Mail-in voting protocols differ slightly state by state, but in Texas, eligible early voters can begin dropping off their ballots this month.
Some of the state's largest counties had already set up multiple drop-off sites. Harris County, home to the city of Houston and some four million residents, must now close 11 drop-off locations, the Houston Chronicle reported.
In addition to raising questions about how potentially millions of urban Texans will need to visit a single drop-off site, the move may also be problematic for rural residents, who are spread out across the state - which is also America's second largest by area.
The order goes into effect on Friday.
Someone who bandies the phrase TDS, and who fancies himself "neutral" is either stupid or deluded.
Quote from: T. D. on October 01, 2020, 02:38:22 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54380684 (https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54380684)
Texas governor cuts back on voting locations weeks before election
Republican Governor Greg Abbott said the move would stop illegal voting.
Critics have accused Mr Abbott of voter suppression, pointing out that in some cases this means thousands of voters must go to one clerk's office.
Coming weeks before the election, the order requires counties to close any satellite ballot drop-off locations.
Texas is the second most populous US state and it would be a big win for candidates during the 3 November election. The state has been reliably Republican in modern presidential contests.
Many more voters this time around are expected to vote by post or drop off their ballots due to the pandemic.
Mail-in voting protocols differ slightly state by state, but in Texas, eligible early voters can begin dropping off their ballots this month.
Some of the state's largest counties had already set up multiple drop-off sites. Harris County, home to the city of Houston and some four million residents, must now close 11 drop-off locations, the Houston Chronicle reported.
In addition to raising questions about how potentially millions of urban Texans will need to visit a single drop-off site, the move may also be problematic for rural residents, who are spread out across the state - which is also America's second largest by area.
The order goes into effect on Friday.
Voter suppression is the only way for Repubs to retain power.
Nine women. All from swing states. All 2016 Trump voters. And they have thoughts about Trump's debate meltdown. (https://thebulwark.com/listen-to-what-trump-2016-swing-state-voters-had-to-say-about-the-debate/)
"Interestingly, these women thought Trump's strategy was a transparent attempt to rattle Biden and make him look like the senile caricature that Trump's campaign has been pushing on voters. But these women thought that it seemed less like Biden had dementia and more like he was a guy constantly getting interrupted by a jerk."
Quote from: Dowder on October 01, 2020, 02:51:40 PM
There are black and latino members of Proud Boys. Also, one of the members who got arrested a while back was married and had kids with a black woman. Not to mention, Gavin's wife is Native American.
This is true. The official position of the Proud Boys is not white supremacist. They describe themselves as "Western chauvinists" and are Islamophobic. They are allied with racist and anti-semitic groups on the alt right. Wives can be whatever they want as long as they are submissive.
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 02:27:38 PM
Your version of "neutral" is the one that doesn't understand how Trump works.
People are way too confident they understand how he works.
So the people that don't like him are the only ones who understand how he works? Predictable.
It's futile to talk to people who have already decided their mind is made up. Reminds me about the Zappa quote about an open mind.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he were filmed eating pizza a weird way and that was interpreted as a dog whistle. The paranoia is high.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 01, 2020, 02:15:09 PM
If you really don't like being called stupid or ignorant then stop saying and doing this.
I was busy working so wanted a 5 minute break, not a 20 minute one to read all of that.
Now that the day is over, I'm doing something else, maybe taking a quote from the article to explain why a group with a black leader is a white supremacist group would speed things up.
Quote from: Dowder on October 01, 2020, 02:51:40 PM
There are black and latino members of Proud Boys. Also, one of the members who got arrested a while back was married and had kids with a black woman. Not to mention, Gavin's wife is Native American.
You're not supposed to say that. Having enemies brings people a sense of purpose.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
Someone who bandies the phrase TDS, and who fancies himself "neutral" is either stupid or deluded.
Yeah, neutral is Orange Man Bad.
Left is Orange Man Bad.
Right is Orange Man Good.
Math.
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 03:32:06 PM
This is true. The official position of the Proud Boys is not white supremacist. They describe themselves as "Western chauvinists" and are Islamophobic. They are allied with racist and anti-semitic groups on the alt right.
This may be more accurate, they may be all those things, which is bad. I just hate hearing the media lies, it's so dumb. They may be some types of bad, but they are not that type of bad. They should get the facts right.
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 03:32:06 PM
Wives can be whatever they want as long as they are submissive.
Well... who wouldn't want that? ;)
I would be okay with someone saying "I'm leaning towards it being a dog whistle" or something like that.
Problem is, people are absolutely convinced it is. That's what TDS is.
I don't have BDS (Biden derangement syndrome), that's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt about the military comment thing. I give both the benefit of the doubt.
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 03:37:20 PM
Yeah, neutral is Orange Man Bad.
Left is Orange Man Bad.
Right is Orange Man Good.
Math.
Neutral is "I look at his behavior over time and I see that these current issues are not an aberration that can be explained away as one situational misspeaking or misreading but are consistent with everything that has gone before."
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 03:37:20 PM
People are way too confident they understand how he works.
So the people that don't like him are the only ones who understand how he works? Predictable.
It's futile to talk to people who have already decided their mind is made up. Reminds me about the Zappa quote about an open mind.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he were filmed eating pizza a weird way and that was interpreted as a dog whistle. The paranoia is high.
I was busy working so wanted a 5 minute break, not a 20 minute one to read all of that.
Now that the day is over, I'm doing something else, maybe taking a quote from the article to explain why a group with a black leader is a white supremacist group would speed things up.
You're not supposed to say that. Having enemies brings people a sense of purpose.
Yeah, neutral is Orange Man Bad.
Left is Orange Man Bad.
Right is Orange Man Good.
Math.
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 03:37:20 PM
People are way too confident they understand how he works.
So the people that don't like him are the only ones who understand how he works? Predictable.
It's futile to talk to people who have already decided their mind is made up. Reminds me about the Zappa quote about an open mind.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he were filmed eating pizza a weird way and that was interpreted as a dog whistle. The paranoia is high.
I was busy working so wanted a 5 minute break, not a 20 minute one to read all of that.
Now that the day is over, I'm doing something else, maybe taking a quote from the article to explain why a group with a black leader is a white supremacist group would speed things up.
You're not supposed to say that. Having enemies brings people a sense of purpose.
Yeah, neutral is Orange Man Bad.
Left is Orange Man Bad.
Right is Orange Man Good.
Math.
Remind us again of your impressive IQ?
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 03:37:20 PM
People are way too confident they understand how he works.
So the people that don't like him are the only ones who understand how he works? Predictable.
I said almost everyone understood him and how he works. You have to try hard to reach the level of ignorance that "doesn't know very much about him".
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 03:40:25 PM
This may be more accurate, they may be all those things, which is bad. I just hate hearing the media lies, it's so dumb.
OK, I get you don't know a whole lot about how the far right groups operate according to different identities. If you look at the cast of characters you see they glom and split among neo-nazis, fascists who are not nazis, white supremacists, Islamophobes, misogynists and homophobes. People move between groups. They identify with some hates and not others. It's a cornucopia!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2020, 03:22:45 PM
Nine women. All from swing states. All 2016 Trump voters. And they have thoughts about Trump's debate meltdown. (https://thebulwark.com/listen-to-what-trump-2016-swing-state-voters-had-to-say-about-the-debate/)
"A focus group isn't a poll. But the reactions I heard seem to line up with the quick-reaction polling after the debate: That's nine 2016 Trump voters, not a single one of whom is currently willing to vote for the president again in 2020."
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 04:02:45 PM
OK, I get you don't know a whole lot about how the far right groups operate according to different identities.
And yet, he's so smug, and pats himself on the back for knowing "media lies." It's all so dumb.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2020, 04:01:47 PM
Remind us again of your impressive IQ?
Oh, you got me. Guess I'm wrong about everything.
Ad hominem ad infinitum it is.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 01, 2020, 03:57:06 PM
Neutral is "I look at his behavior over time and I see that these current issues are not an aberration that can be explained away as one situational misspeaking or misreading but are consistent with everything that has gone before."
Logically that sounds good.
"With what has gone on before-" so he has blatantly, overtly (without any doubts) supported White Supremacist groups? Which ones?
Preferably, I'd like a recording of him speaking about them favorably, at the very least. Not some news "he said, she said" news article.
This take on it is good IMO:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-condemn-white-supremacists/
Quote
During the Sept. 29, 2020, presidential debate, U.S. President Donald Trump "refused" to condemn white supremacists.
Rating
Mixture
Mixture
About this rating
What's True
During the debate, Trump was repeatedly asked and invited to explicitly and clearly condemn white supremacists, and he did not do that.
What's False
Trump did not verbally articulate that he was unwilling to condemn white supremacists, or would not do so, and in fact said, "Sure, I'm willing to do that."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2020, 04:55:09 PM
And yet, he's so smug, and pats himself on the back for knowing "media lies." It's all so dumb.
The media is a beacon of truth with no financial incentive whatsoever. They're even better than science and logic.
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 03:40:25 PM
Well... who wouldn't want that? ;)
Wives, at the very least.
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 05:05:17 PM
Logically that sounds good.
"With what has gone on before-" so he has blatantly, overtly (without any doubts) supported White Supremacist groups? Which ones?
Preferably, I'd like a recording of him speaking about them favorably, at the very least. Not some news "he said, she said" news article.
This take on it is good IMO:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-condemn-white-supremacists/
We've been through all this before, as you well know.
The problem is that all his comments and actions around race have a problematic interpretation, have the "mixed" rating you're somehow happy with above. Yes, any one comment can be argued away as something more benign than it at first seems, but the point is that there is a clear consistency in requiring this post-comment spin from his apologists throughout the last five years.
But what I thought we were talking about - and you were spinning - was his calling on this group for election interference purposes.
More thoughts. Hopefully I'm done after this. :P
(that's a free shot, come on! Someone quote me with that and post a gif of someone enthusiastically nodding until their head falls off) ;)
Ok, about this comment here:
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 01, 2020, 04:01:47 PM
Remind us again of your impressive IQ?
So this is an example of bias. This ties into the perception of Trump.
So person 1- takes one solid position of a debate, person 2- takes another solid position.
Person 3 says something but person 1 and 2 interpret it differently.
The interpretation of the facts is colored by their attitude towards the person saying them.
Also why Todd has it only halfway there, mentioning "factlessness" is a problem here. That's just seeing the branches, even if everyone has all the facts there will be wildly different interpretation. What colors everything is a more low-level, more abstract thing, like a seed, that people aren't consciously aware of because their minds exist above the ground. It's an identification with a tribe, which is a starting point. It then gives your entire world a different color.
So I'm pretty sure I never used the word "impressive," doesn't seem like I'd use that word. It's far from bad, but not the level of impressive IMO. Mentioning it, as I said, was purely self-defense, even if no one believes me, it is objectively true. The reason it's seen as (implying that I'm bragging) is just from disagreeing with me, so that colors perception of everything I say in this discussion.
Likewise, everything Trump says will be interpreted as sinister by those who hate him.
Ok... so another analogy...
Someone being convinced about a "Jewish cabal" global conspiracy or whatever it's called. They can bring about as many documents, etc.
pointing to this being true, but at the end of the day, do they really have any hard evidence? So I can understand
why they would believe something, but here's where I draw the line: if they have all the stuff, and they think, "hey, it could be true," then whatever, I'll just shrug and move on. But the second they stare at you crazy-eyed and tell you 100% it's true, and if you don't believe them, then you are part of the conspiracy, then I think this guy is crazy. It's the level of conviction at the lack of hard evidence which I just can't take seriously.
At this point I don't expect anyone to understand what I'm saying, but whatever, I just gotta type out my thoughts to get them out and move on.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 01, 2020, 05:53:50 PM
We've been through all this before, as you well know.
The problem is that all his comments and actions around race have a problematic interpretation, have the "mixed" rating you're somehow happy with above. Yes, any one comment can be argued away as something more benign than it at first seems, but the point is that there is a clear consistency in requiring this post-comment spin from his apologists throughout the last five years.
Well yeah, to me it's in some murky territory. I'm okay with some bias, but not the 100% conviction type of bias.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 01, 2020, 05:53:50 PM
But what I thought we were talking about - and you were spinning - was his calling on this group for election interference purposes.
Oh ok, no problem, I'm not sure what to think about that issue.
Quote from: JBS on October 01, 2020, 05:16:01 PM
Wives, at the very least.
Yeah, I'd imagine the lower quality, domineering ones wouldn't be into that. A submissive wife would actually be lovable. Then again, to each his own.
But just to clarify, none of us are immune from bias, including me.
If someone called Hitler a child molester, it wouldn't emotionally bother me at all, and would be less motivated to go out of my way to correct that (just assuming he wasn't, I guess he wasn't since I never heard he was).
I probably would correct them if it took no effort to do so, because why not.
To someone who I knew about and had mixed or neutral feelings towards, I'd definitely be more motivated to correct them. To someone I liked, I'd definitely definitely defend them.
The truth is important, but sometimes... who cares, right?...
The "Very Fine People" President (https://thebulwark.com/the-very-fine-people-president/)
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 05:05:17 PM
This take on it is good IMO:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-condemn-white-supremacists/
I watched that part. There a lot of "buts" and qualifications. I think it's fair to say he talks out of both sides of his mouth and that he knows he needs the votes fed by resentment. Tump has demonstrated that he's a very small person. He's an expression of resentment and really nothing else.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 01, 2020, 03:59:45 AM
Harris is perhaps just a little left of Biden, but not much. That's one reason why Harris was a suitable choice for Biden's VP. Black, woman and not much different in politics (safe for the oligarchs). Trump attacks Biden as if he was Biden AND Bernie. It doesn't work well, because Biden was the VP for eight years and the guns were not taken away. Trump had good political instincts four years ago. Not this time. He has lost the "outsider" advantage in the eyes of people. He is now an "insider" and the country is in chaos on his watch, not "great again" as he promised.
I agree with pretty much everything here.
QuoteWhy isn't it time yet? It has been time for decades! The oligarchs just want to keep robbing everyone blind! Isn't the income inequality huge enough? Isn't enough Americans dying because they don't have access to basic healthcare? There is no excuse to delay progress that is badly needed. Now the fear is if Trump fills Ginsburg's seat the US might move to a new Lochner era and pretty much all progress will be stopped for 30-40 years while workers will have practically zero rights. So is it time for medicare for all in 2050? Or 2060? Meanwhile millions of American will die for now having the healthcare they need. What is the country waiting for?
It isn't time yet because (a) no one has come up with a MFA plan that can actually be paid for with real money and (b) trying to move a country as large and as diverse as the U.S. radically in EITHER direction is a recipe for disaster. It will not happen until a large majority of the people alive at the time want it. Maybe when today's Gen Z have inherited our mess, then it will happen. Right now, any big movement to the left will marginalize about 30% to 40% of the population, judging by Trump's approval rating. The backlash may just give us someone else as bad as Trump, or worse if that's possible.
QuoteDecades of compromise and bipartisanship made president Trump possible and without radical change there will be more Trump-like presidents. The left and right can be united in economic issues because on both sides the workers get screwed by the current system. There are things the left and right (the top 1 % excluded) and agree about, for example ending the wars. Unfortunately Biden is not known for ending wars. He is known for starting wars and serving the military industry complex, even more so that Trump!
You have this exactly backwards. It was not compromise that gave us Trump, it was contempt on the part of Washington folks for the people in the rural middle of the country, plus a candidate (HRC) who personified that contempt; and it was partly racist backlash against Obama. I think the racism was a small part of it, but it might have been just enough to push Trump over the edge.
Quote
Biden has to win, because Trump must be removed from office, but Biden's presidency will solve almost NOTHING. It's four years of status quo.
Nor would any other candidate who has ever run for office here. Least of all Bernie Sanders, who would trigger far-right violence on a scale we haven't seen yet, and would either fail miserably at his economic and healthcare plans, or drive the country into default.
Quote from: greg on October 01, 2020, 06:12:59 PM
whatever, I just gotta type out my thoughts to get them out and move on.
no you don't have to type out your inanities. you have two or three threads devoted to your self-admiration, while this is actually about American politics, rather than 'Let me show what decades of ignorance and conceitedness can produce.'
QuoteA submissive wife would actually be lovable. Then again, to each his own.
And then there is the teenage incel misogyny.
Quote from: milk on October 01, 2020, 06:49:58 PM
I watched that part. There a lot of "buts" and qualifications. I think it's fair to say he talks out of both sides of his mouth and that he knows he needs the votes fed by resentment. Tump has demonstrated that he's a very small person. He's an expression of resentment and really nothing else.
He did condemn it (and the Proud Boys) during an on-air phone call with Hannity. The same call where he said he's been tested for the virus because of his exposure to Hicks.
If my tweetfeed is an accurate reflection, the news Trump might have Covid19 will likely drown out any talk about his attitude to white supremacy.
Quote from: JBS on October 01, 2020, 07:30:32 PM
He did condemn it (and the Proud Boys) during an on-air phone call with Hannity. The same call where he said he's been tested for the virus because of his exposure to Hicks.
If my tweetfeed is an accurate reflection, the news Trump might have Covid19 will likely drown out any talk about his attitude to white supremacy.
Trump's lifelong history in bigotry is amply documented.
After Trump's shout-out to Proud Boys there has been immediate pressure from Reublicans fighting for their Congress seats. They need votes from the proverbial suburbian housewives who are not so hot about fomenting violence. These downballot GOPers need more than just th base. They're not in self-destruction mode. That's why Trump is backpedalling.
Quote from: JBS on October 01, 2020, 07:30:32 PM
If my tweetfeed is an accurate reflection, the news Trump might have Covid19 will likely drown out any talk about his attitude to white supremacy.
Hope Hicks has been in contact with many of the top WH people who are usually seen in public without masks.
Quote from: Herman on October 01, 2020, 07:27:57 PM
no you don't have to type out your inanities. you have two or three threads devoted to your self-admiration, while this is actually about American politics, rather than 'Let me show what decades of ignorance and conceitedness can produce.'
Quote from: Herman on October 01, 2020, 07:27:57 PM
And then there is the teenage incel misogyny.
Lol if you think that's misogyny. Surely something like BDSM is misogynistic, too, then?
Not sure what "incel" has to do with it, but like I said, perception of facts are colored by bias. So throw out all the insults you can think of, go ahead. Being on the attack makes you look better, just ask Trump.
Also the statement "two or three threads devoted to your self-admiration," colored by bias. I know that is wrong because my motivation is sharing information that I find interesting. Especially with personality theory, the best thing is to start with self-observation to understand the system.
The President and Melania have tested positive.
Quote from: JBS on October 01, 2020, 07:30:32 PM
He did condemn it (and the Proud Boys) during an on-air phone call with Hannity. The same call where he said he's been tested for the virus because of his exposure to Hicks.
If my tweetfeed is an accurate reflection, the news Trump might have Covid19 will likely drown out any talk about his attitude to white supremacy.
yeah I just saw that news. I stand corrected. Hmm...if tump tested positive for corona..well, I'm not saying I wish him to get sick but it would be a perfect irony.
Quote from: drogulus on October 01, 2020, 08:55:58 PM
The President and Melania have tested positive.
Tempting to post a meme of Grumpy Cat saying "Good," and tell him to go drink some bleach.
But the reality is that if he has a mild case he'll say that, see, its no big deal, and if he has a bad case he'll claim it was a declaration of war by the Chinese and that the election should be cancelled.
1) Probably likely that, due to the amount of medical support and the improved treatment options generally, and in spite of #45 being somewhat in the vulnerable group of patients, he will get through the infection successfully, experts here say.
2) however, this may cause much disruption in the administration's workings, the presidential campaigns and the debates.
Also, Pelosi is apparently no.3 in the system, after #45 and Pence.
3) this may indicate a possible, further lack of responsibility during the #45 campaign meetings in the last few days, depending on how early it was discovered that Hicks was infected. Had symptoms Wednesday evening and was tested positive Thursday morning.
4) suggestions that Biden halting his campaign and showing appropriate stature would be the most suitable - and effective - thing to do.
What concerns me is if the President does not recover.
Then we will have to deal with all the conspiracy theories that he was assassinated.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 01, 2020, 10:58:55 PM
What concerns me is if the President does not recover.
Then we will have to deal with all the conspiracy theories that he was assassinated.
By the pretty girl? That is going to take some conspiratin'.
The direct effect will be Trump's campaign will be conducted solely on twitter.
In other news, it turns out Kimberly Guilfoyle (the completely reconstructed woman Don Jr is banging) has paid Fox employees four million dollar for sexual harrassment. She had the strange habit of showing people she worked with dick picks, discussing men she was consorting with with make-up people etc. Which may explain why she's always made up like a nuclear disaster zone. She also had the habit of walking around naked in front of her assistants, asking how she looked. "The Best Is Yet to Come!!" louder please.
It's just amazing what kind of lowlifes have gathered around Trump.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-secret-history-of-kimberly-guilfoyles-departure-from-fox
If Trump is infected, isn't Biden at risk too? I didn't watch the debate, were they wearing masks and separated by a plastic wall during the debate? If not, considering the amount of Trump's yelling and shouting at Biden, then there's a problem.
It's not what happened on stage that would be concerning. It's what happened backstage. Is Biden going to get himself tested? Is everyone at the debate going to do that?
From my perspective (looking at who has died and why) Trump will probably come through this with few or no symptoms, validating his claims about the virus. He could even say that he took hydroxychloroquine - we wouldn't know. This can only be a plus for Trump.
Quote from: Holden on October 02, 2020, 12:57:16 AM
It's not what happened on stage that would be concerning. It's what happened backstage. Is Biden going to get himself tested? Is everyone at the debate going to do that?
Good observation and questions. Did they shake hands on stage?
Quote
From my perspective (looking at who has died and why) Trump will probably come through this with few or no symptoms, validating his claims about the virus. He could even say that he took hydroxychloroquine - we wouldn't know. This can only be a plus for Trump.
;D
Would it be a plus if Trump is out of action for the remaining 4 weeks? He wouldn't need to be severely affected to not be able to do any speeches, debates etc. And in any case he will lose almost two weeks because of cautionary quarantine, won't he?
there is indeed the question whether there was some kind of Trump - Biden contact before or after the abysmal Cleveland debate.
What makes Trump different from 99,9 % of affected people is he's got the best medical care, and so chances are pretty good he'll be okay in two or three weeks, in spite of his age and weight.
And then he'll double down on his "the best genes" claims.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 01:23:31 AM
Would it be a plus if Trump is out of action for the remaining 4 weeks? He wouldn't need to be severely affected to not be able to do any speeches, debates etc. And in any case he will lose almost two weeks because of cautionary quarantine, won't he?
I do wonder: (1) at this stage, are there really still undecided voters that will decide whom to vote for based on the next speeches and debates*?, and (2) if yes, is their number large enough to decide the winner?
*given the most recent developments, most probably there won't be any more debates between Trump and Biden.
What Trump was doing at the debate was trying to increase the number of Undecideds whether they could still stomach going to the polls, posting their mail-in votes.
It has been a steady GOP-tactic over the years to make people sick of negative politics, giving people the feeling "they're all the same down in DC so why vote". Few developed countries* have as low a voter participation rate as the US and it's in the GOP's interest to drive it even further down. With his disgusting persona and his appalling performance in Cleveland Trump dialled these efforts up to eleven.
*In many parameters the USA is no longer a developed country. Life expectancy is falling among males particularly; no Western country has this proportion of incarceration etc.
Quote from: Herman on October 02, 2020, 02:46:32 AM
Few developed countries* have as low a voter participation rate as the US.
*In many parameters the USA is no longer a developed country. Life expectancy is falling among males particularly; no Western country has this proportion of incarceration etc.
My country Finland has what I believe a very typical voter participation rate among developed countries. In our 2018 presidencial election it was 69.9 % Finns living in other countries excluded and 66.8 % Finns living in other countries included. Over here this is consideted low while 80 % is considered very good voter participation rate. In elections to the European Parliament the voter participation rate is very low in Finland, little over 40 %. European Parliament seems so "distant" to many, but even this is similar to what the voter participation rate is in American presidential election these days, the election of the most powerful person in the world... :-X
It took me some time to realize/accept the fact that USA is not a real developed country. It is a VERY rich and powerful third world country which thanks to it's might can look like a developed first world country, but when you look closer you discover things you don't generally see with developed countries: No universal healthcare, no paid vacation time by law (even in Japan they have 2 weeks of paid vacation time by law and they are fricking workaholics!), no clean tap water, no real democracy etc.
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 01:10:31 AM
Good observation and questions. Did they shake hands on stage?
;D
They did not shake hands. There was a no contact protocol for the whole affair that included forgoing a hand shake.
Quote from: Holden on October 02, 2020, 12:57:16 AM
It's not what happened on stage that would be concerning. It's what happened backstage. Is Biden going to get himself tested? Is everyone at the debate going to do that?
From my perspective (looking at who has died and why) Trump will probably come through this with few or no symptoms, validating his claims about the virus. He could even say that he took hydroxychloroquine - we wouldn't know. This can only be a plus for Trump.
Of course Biden will get tested. I hope Trump does take hyroxychloroquine and declines steroids and Remdesivir.
A plus for Trump? He could die! :)
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 01:43:44 AMI do wonder: (1) at this stage, are there really still undecided voters that will decide whom to vote for based on the next speeches and debates*?, and (2) if yes, is their number large enough to decide the winner?
There always are, right up until election day. And in a few select states, the number is significant enough to swing an election. Whether they will matter this time will not be known until exit polling is completed. Most people in most states know and have known for a long time the candidate they will choose.
Quote from: Herman on October 02, 2020, 02:46:32 AM*In many parameters the USA is no longer a developed country. Life expectancy is falling among males particularly; no Western country has this proportion of incarceration etc.
Well, at least you made an effort to use something more up to date than Third World Country. Unfortunately, you are unable to keep up with real intellectuals when it comes to proper terminology.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 02, 2020, 01:23:31 AM
Would it be a plus if Trump is out of action for the remaining 4 weeks? He wouldn't need to be severely affected to not be able to do any speeches, debates etc. And in any case he will lose almost two weeks because of cautionary quarantine, won't he?
Trump can still tweet and do phone-ins to various news outlets every day, multiple times a day, provided his symptoms allow it. Plus Trump will receive enormous amounts of free press coverage. In standard campaign spending terms, he will receive at least tens of millions of dollars of free advertising, and possibly more. Plus, he will capture a sympathy vote. It is hard to gauge how large that will be.
Why does critical cancer drug Revlimid cost today over three times what cost back in 2005?
Katie Porter DISMANTLES Big Pharma CEO During Congressional Hearing
https://www.youtube.com/v/=Tm8YlzOQnkU
Quote from: 71 dB on October 02, 2020, 04:42:50 AMWhy does critical cancer drug Revlimid cost today over three times what cost back in 2005?
Profit-maximizing behavior by the company that manufactures it. Basic stuff.
Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2020, 04:39:18 AM
. Plus, he will capture a sympathy vote. It is hard to gauge how large that will be.
I doubt it. I think his largely denialist stance has made that unlikely.
Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2020, 04:39:18 AM
Trump can still tweet and do phone-ins to various news outlets every day, multiple times a day, provided his symptoms allow it. Plus Trump will receive enormous amounts of free press coverage. In standard campaign spending terms, he will receive at least tens of millions of dollars of free advertising, and possibly more. Plus, he will capture a sympathy vote. It is hard to gauge how large that will be.
The man who gets everything free from $400 million of his dad's money to free advertising in presidential elections, but eventually he loses it all.
Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2020, 04:44:42 AM
Profit-maximizing behavior by the company that manufactures it. Basic stuff.
Sure, but other countries figured out there are more important things than profits such as affordable drugs to stay alive.
Some things should be of the table in capitalism.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 02, 2020, 04:47:38 AM
... but eventually he loses it all.
I don't want to sound like some Paris existentialist, but everybody eventually loses it all.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 02, 2020, 04:50:32 AMSome things should be of the table in capitalism.
Perhaps. This is not one of them.
Biden wishes Trump a 'swift recovery'
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2020, 01:43:44 AM
I do wonder: (1) at this stage, are there really still undecided voters that will decide whom to vote for based on the next speeches and debates*?, and (2) if yes, is their number large enough to decide the winner?
Since you are in Europe you do not see our domestic news. Our newscasters are frequently interviewing people who claim they are undecided. What comes across to me when I listen to them is that they are clueless.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 05:30:18 AM
Biden wishes Trump a 'swift recovery'
Unfortunately, a number of people on the Trump side of the debate audience had been exposed to Hope Hicks and not a single one of the irresponsible a$$holes was wearing a mask. Everyone in the debate room is in danger of infection.
This will be the mother of all contact tracing exercises. After Hicks tested positive, Trump went to a fundraiser. Hicks is the gateway to Trump, so everyone talks to her.
The biased media is reporting Trump has mild symptoms.
*grabs popcorn*
this could be a wild ride, boys... so try to enjoy it 8)
There will be a lot to enjoy.
Trump COVID Hoax Conspiracy Theories Ignite Among President's Critics (https://www.newsweek.com/trump-covid-hoax-conspiracy-theories-1535907)
See.
Apparently, the twitterverse is abuzz with folks delighting in Trump's diagnosis. I don't use Twitter, so I will defer to forum users who do use Twitter to verify whether that is the case.
Quote from: greg on October 02, 2020, 06:30:03 AM
*grabs popcorn*
this could be a wild ride, boys... so try to enjoy it 8)
Literally the only one here who thinks it's a fun thing
Quote from: drogulus on October 02, 2020, 05:54:30 AM
This will be the mother of all contact tracing exercises. After Hicks tested positive, Trump went to a fundraiser. Hicks is the gateway to Trump, so everyone talks to her.
The biased media is reporting Trump has mild symptoms.
Fake News!
We who (unlike the president) can walk and chew gum at the same time, can both wish the president and the first lady a quick recovery, and yet observe that nothing says "I'm stupid!" quite like an elected official contracting COVID-19 because he refuses to wear a mask, and fails to have those with whom he works wear a mask.
Quote from: Herman on October 02, 2020, 06:52:53 AM
Literally the only one here who thinks it's a fun thing
I would be surprised if that were true.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 07:07:34 AM
We who (unlike the president) can walk and chew gum at the same time, can both wish the president and the first lady a quick recovery, and yet observe that nothing says "I'm stupid!" quite like an elected official contracting COVID-19 because he refuses to wear a mask, and fails to have those with whom he works wear a mask.
+1
Quote from: Florestan on October 01, 2020, 11:30:40 PM
If Trump is infected, isn't Biden at risk too? I didn't watch the debate, were they wearing masks and separated by a plastic wall during the debate? If not, considering the amount of Trump's yelling and shouting at Biden, then there's a problem.
They were not. They were some distance apart, but it all depends on the ventilation in the hall where the debate took place. With Trump's constant shouting and bellowing, there must have been oodles of his aerosols in the space around the debate stage. If I were either Biden or Chris Wallace, I'd be at least somewhat concerned.
Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2020, 05:22:23 AM
Perhaps. This is not one of them.
If a critical cancer drug is not "one of them" then WHAT THE FUCK is? This is really were we have FUNDAMENTAL disagreement about how the society should work. You can live without Nike shoes so Nike can increase their prices ten-fold and see if people still buy their products, but cancer drugs are not like that. Surely you aren't so dumb to not see the difference?
Also in REAL capitalism drug companies would be COMPETING each other on the market keeping prices low, but that's not how it works in the US. There is no real competition. What's even more nasty is that the drug in question is probably mostly developed with tax payer money. Tax payers should have a say about what the drug costs, but in oligarchy they don't.
Quote from: krummholz on October 02, 2020, 07:43:30 AM
They were not. They were some distance apart, but it all depends on the ventilation in the hall where the debate took place. With Trump's constant shouting and bellowing, there must have been oodles of his aerosols in the space around the debate stage. If I were either Biden or Chris Wallace, I'd be at least somewhat concerned.
Indeed, I should get tested.
Quote from: Herman on October 02, 2020, 04:55:27 AM
I don't want to sound like some Paris existentialist, but everybody eventually loses it all.
Well, I won't lose 400 million dollars because I never will have it in the first place.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 05:30:18 AM
Biden wishes Trump a 'swift recovery'
As he should. Empathy and decency is something we badly need in these dark times.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/02/gop-donors-panic-after-coming-close-to-trump-at-fundraiser-hours-before-positive-covid-19-test.html
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 07:07:34 AM
We who (unlike the president) can walk and chew gum at the same time, can both wish the president and the first lady a quick recovery, and yet observe that nothing says "I'm stupid!" quite like an elected official contracting COVID-19 because he refuses to wear a mask, and fails to have those with whom he works wear a mask.
I can walk, chew gum, and juggle at the same time but will save my good wishes for those the moron in chief and his cronies have endangered and the millions grieving for those who've been lost due to Trump's stupidity and incompetence.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 02, 2020, 08:01:50 AM
As he should. Empathy and decency is something we badly need in these dark times.
Compare the Orange Pustule's "Couldn't happen to a nicer guy" when Mitt Romney was quarantined and his equally assholic comments when Romney subsequently tested negative.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 02, 2020, 07:54:58 AM
If a critical cancer drug is not "one of them" then WHAT THE FUCK is? This is really were we have FUNDAMENTAL disagreement about how the society should work. You can live without Nike shoes so Nike can increase their prices ten-fold and see if people still buy their products, but cancer drugs are not like that. Surely you aren't so dumb to not see the difference?
Also in REAL capitalism drug companies would be COMPETING each other on the market keeping prices low, but that's not how it works in the US. There is no real competition. What's even more nasty is that the drug in question is probably mostly developed with tax payer money. Tax payers should have a say about what the drug costs, but in oligarchy they don't.
Caps = powerful.
Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2020, 06:50:22 AM
There will be a lot to enjoy.
Trump COVID Hoax Conspiracy Theories Ignite Among President's Critics (https://www.newsweek.com/trump-covid-hoax-conspiracy-theories-1535907)
See.
Apparently, the twitterverse is abuzz with folks delighting in Trump's diagnosis. I don't use Twitter, so I will defer to forum users who do use Twitter to verify whether that is the case.
The Twitterverse is also full of people calling out people who delight in Trump's getting sick as disgraceful.
Quote from: JBS on October 02, 2020, 08:56:23 AM
The Twitterverse is also full of people calling out people who delight in Trump's getting sick as disgraceful.
Yes, I assume Twitter has a lot of virtue signaling, too.
I will suggest that if Trump does die before 11/3, and thereby remove his personal flaws and corruption out of the picture, the GOP's chances to retain both the White House and Senate would probably increase considerably.
Quote from: JBS on October 02, 2020, 09:02:01 AM
I will suggest that if Trump does die before 11/3, and thereby remove his personal flaws and corruption out of the picture, the GOP's chances to retain both the White House and Senate would probably increase considerably.
Perhaps, perhaps not. For the presidency, what do state election laws allow or require in a case where a candidate dies?
Perhaps, perhaps not. Democrat electioneering relies heavily on tying Republican candidates to Trump. It seems rather unlikely that Trump being alive or not will materially alter the outcome in elections focused on that.
Quote from: JBS on October 02, 2020, 09:02:01 AM
A I will suggest that if Trump does die before 11/3, and thereby remove his personal flaws and corruption out of the picture, B the GOP's chances to retain both the White House and Senate would probably increase considerably.
A is unlikely to happen, with the best medical care in the US at hand
B not very likely either. The GOP is the Trump party.
Biden & Harris have tested negative.
Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2020, 09:07:51 AM
Perhaps, perhaps not. For the presidency, what do state election laws allow or require in a case where a candidate dies?
Perhaps, perhaps not. Democrat electioneering relies heavily on tying Republican candidates to Trump. It seems rather unlikely that Trump being alive or not will materially alter the outcome in elections focused on that.
I know it varies by state. But in theory GOP electors would cast their EC votes for Pence (assuming the GOP substitutes him) . just like the Electoral College was meant to be.
But suppose Trump dies a few days before the election. That means the following all exit the White House as Pence is sworn in as his successor
Jared, Ivanka, Don Jr, Eric, Kimberly G.
Trump taxes, debts, dubious business dealings, possible crimes
The Trump twitter account, Trump's narcissism, open flirting with white supremacy, bullying, etc
All that disappearing makes the idea of Pence as POTUS more appealing to people who don't like the Democrats but also can't stand Trump.
[I am sure Pence would continue the white supremacy and cuddling with Russia, but would be far more discreet about it ]
Quote from: Herman on October 02, 2020, 09:10:18 AM
A is unlikely to happen, with the best medical care in the US at hand
B not very likely either. The GOP is the Trump party.
I hope A does not happen, but read the reply to Todd I just made about B.
Quote from: JBS on October 02, 2020, 09:25:26 AMBut in theory GOP electors would cast their EC votes for Pence (assuming the GOP substitutes him) . just like the Electoral College was meant to be.
I'm not interested in theory, I'm interested in facts. For instance, in theory, the situation could mean that not all Electors cast their ballots, which hands the selection of the next president to the House.
Quote from: JBS on October 02, 2020, 09:27:20 AM
I hope A does not happen, but read the reply to Todd I just made about B.
At the O. P.'s age, coronavirus deaths often don't occur until well over a month after infection, with long intervening hospitalization.
So there's also the scenario of a hospitalized, possibly incapacitated or terminally ill candidate on Election Day. I haven't researched, and have no idea of what would happen in that event.
Sen. Lee has tested positive. Both he and Trump have met with Judge Barrett recently. Mike Lee would like you to know he doesn't wear a mask by not wearing a mask, which seems like a bad idea whatever the benefits.
Quote from: T. D. on October 02, 2020, 10:22:30 AM
At the O. P.'s age, coronavirus deaths often don't occur until well over a month after infection, with long intervening hospitalization.
So there's also the scenario of a hospitalized, possibly incapacitated or terminally ill candidate on Election Day. I haven't researched, and have no idea of what would happen in that event.
Pence would be acting President. Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. The legal aspects of the election would not change unless he did actually die.
Judge Barrett tested positive this summer.
The video of Sen. Lee smooching with guests at the Barrett introduction event has a kind of incipient nostalgia "vibe".
Future people will watch documentaries about these people with the detachment of entomologists studying particularly disgusting insects. It a way it's fascinating, even exhilarating, but still disgusting.
Quote from: drogulus on October 02, 2020, 10:38:37 AM
Sen. Lee has tested positive. Both he and Trump have met with Judge Barrett recently. Mike Lee would like you to know he doesn't wear a mask by not wearing a mask, which seems like a bad idea whatever the benefits.
It's been reported ACB had Covid19 in "late summer" and has fully recovered, which makes her not a likely vector of infection.
Running AI with half a year's major hospital data here in Copenhagen, local university scientists now say that an average patient somewhat ~similar to #45 would face a +50% risk of being hospitalized, and a fatality rate of 10-20%.
Trump is heading to Walter Reed. The symptoms are still said to be mild. He has a fever and is feeling tired.
Covid19 takes out the sickly and those with compromised immune systems - the statistics demonstrate this very clearly. Trump doesn't fall into this category so I'd say he'll survive.
Quote from: drogulus on October 02, 2020, 01:19:00 PM
Trump is heading to Walter Reed. The symptoms are still said to be mild. He has a fever and is feeling tired.
Yes, I just heard that....turned on the news (on now); they're showing the helicopter awaiting him on the White House lawn. Probably taking the highest precautions with him. Wonder whether Melania will be going too? Doesn't sound like it for the time being.
PD
Quote from: Holden on October 02, 2020, 01:33:06 PM
Covid19 takes out the sickly and those with compromised immune systems - the statistics demonstrate this very clearly. Trump doesn't fall into this category so I'd say he'll survive.
Yes, so there's still future jail time.
Quote from: Holden on October 02, 2020, 01:33:06 PM
Covid19 takes out the sickly and those with compromised immune systems - the statistics demonstrate this very clearly. Trump doesn't fall into this category so I'd say he'll survive.
I expect that Trump will survive. This is the worst timeline after all. But given Trump's age, weight, and poor habits, I don't expect him to shrug it off like a healthy young person might. And we still don't know what those previous emergency visits to Walter Reed were about.
Quote from: Daverz on October 02, 2020, 02:15:36 PM
I expect that Trump will survive. This is the worst timeline after all. But given Trump's age, weight, and poor habits, I don't expect him to shrug it off like a healthy young person might. And we still don't know what those previous emergency visits to Walter Reed were about.
Pardon, "previous emergency visits..."? Hadn't heard about any. When were these and where did you read about them?
PD
Maybe the 25th Amendment gets invoked after all . . .
Black humor du jour
Seen on Twitter:
COVID-19 is the only thing Trump has ever acquired in life by actually earning it
Co
Who knew Trump's bullshittery would have consequences?!
Really, this is utter madness. Capitol Hill offices have already seen a steady stream of infections — yet many Republicans keep going out of their way to flout public health measures. Three senators and 15 members of the House, and more than 100 staffers and Capitol Hill workers, have tested positive.
Even GOP staffers are rebelling: A Politico scribe recently reported receiving "a flood of emails" from them complaining of being "forced" to come to the Hill without masks.
It's hard to imagine an event like last Saturday's, or indeed any of this, happening if Trump hadn't set a tone throughout that required members of his party to treat coronavirus as either no big deal or as largely vanquished by his spectacular leadership. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/02/trumps-recklessness-is-now-putting-gop-senators-danger/)
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 02, 2020, 02:18:09 PM
Pardon, "previous emergency visits..."? Hadn't heard about any. When were these and where did you read about them?
PD
Sorry, should have been visit singular:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/opinions/trump-walter-reed-visit-presidents-medical-disclosure-reiner/index.html
Don't you all see this is another of Trump's 4D chess moves to own the libs?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 02:45:29 PM
Who knew Trump's bullshittery would have consequences?!
Really, this is utter madness. Capitol Hill offices have already seen a steady stream of infections — yet many Republicans keep going out of their way to flout public health measures. Three senators and 15 members of the House, and more than 100 staffers and Capitol Hill workers, have tested positive.
Even GOP staffers are rebelling: A Politico scribe recently reported receiving "a flood of emails" from them complaining of being "forced" to come to the Hill without masks.
It's hard to imagine an event like last Saturday's, or indeed any of this, happening if Trump hadn't set a tone throughout that required members of his party to treat coronavirus as either no big deal or as largely vanquished by his spectacular leadership. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/02/trumps-recklessness-is-now-putting-gop-senators-danger/)
Karl, being sane and living in a part of the country that recognizes science makes it difficult to comprehend the madness that prevails in GOP country.
This shocking article appeared just yesterday:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-01/covid-19-restrictions-bring-california-county-into-revolt
Notice that the picketer in the lead photo is too dopey to spell
Heil properly. :laugh: But that's only the beginning of the inanity. I honestly don't know what could possibly induce such morons to change their minds.
Meanwhile,
https://time.com/5893881/exclusive-as-states-prepared-mail-in-ballots-postal-service-failed-to-update-at-least-1-8-million-addresses/
Exclusive: As States Prepared Mail-in Ballots, Postal Service Failed to Update at Least 1.8 Million Addresses
Trump is no longer a human Powerball ticket—a gamble among voters desperate for change—but a president known to be devoid of competence or character. Nor is Joe Biden a caricature of elitism; he's Middle Class Joe. (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-diagnosis-and-the-election/)
Quote from: T. D. on October 02, 2020, 02:57:18 PM
Karl, being sane and living in a part of the country that recognizes science makes it difficult to comprehend the madness that prevails in GOP country.
This shocking article appeared just yesterday:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-01/covid-19-restrictions-bring-california-county-into-revolt
Notice that the picketer in the lead photo is too dopey to spell Heil properly. :laugh: But that's only the beginning of the inanity. I honestly don't know what could possibly induce such morons to change their minds.
No, indeed.
Quote from: T. D. on October 02, 2020, 02:57:18 PM
Karl, being sane and living in a part of the country that recognizes science makes it difficult to comprehend the madness that prevails in GOP country.
This shocking article appeared just yesterday:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-01/covid-19-restrictions-bring-california-county-into-revolt
Notice that the picketer in the lead photo is too dopey to spell Heil properly. :laugh: But that's only the beginning of the inanity. I honestly don't know what could possibly induce such morons to change their minds.
I knew when I saw the URL that this would be about one of our remote counties with a tiny population. I laughed out loud when I saw it was Shasta County. Population of Shasta County is 180k. Population of one Los Angeles neighborhood, South Los Angeles, is 192k.
Nothing against Shasta County, by the way; beautiful country up there. Try to catch the strawberry festival if you can.
(https://i.imgur.com/L13Snst.jpeg)
Quote from: Daverz on October 02, 2020, 03:15:01 PM
I knew when I saw the URL that this would be about one of our remote counties with a tiny population. I laughed out loud when I saw it was Shasta County. Population of Shasta County is 180k. Population of one Los Angeles neighborhood, South Los Angeles, is 192k.
Nothing against Shasta County, by the way; beautiful country up there. Try to catch the strawberry festival if you can.
180 k population "tiny"? In New York, that would rank 20th out of 62 counties. I live on the Western edge of a county (Ulster) with population 177k, but nearby counties have only 75 (Sullivan), 45 (Delaware) and 31 (Schoharie) k.
Quote from: T. D. on October 02, 2020, 03:44:05 PM
180 k population "tiny"? In New York, that would rank 20th out of 62 counties. I live on the Western edge of a county (Ulster) with population 177k, but nearby counties have only 75 (Sullivan), 45 (Delaware) and 31 (Schoharie) k.
I.e. the laughter was at how mistaken was the initial supposition that it was a tiny county.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 02, 2020, 03:57:05 PM
I.e. the laughter was at how mistaken was the initial supposition that it was a tiny county.
Oh, OK, sorry about that. Maybe the article took me so far down the GOP/conspiracy rabbit hole that it further addled my brain. ???
Meanwhile,
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-03/republican-war-on-covid-orders-grinds-on-despite-trump-s-illness
Republican efforts to roll back virus-fighting measures have been steaming ahead for months, and little could halt their momentum Friday even as President Donald Trump became one of more than 30,000 Americans hospitalized with Covid-19.
In Michigan, the state Supreme Court invalidated dozens of Governor Gretchen Whitmer's pandemic executive orders. In Wisconsin, Republican legislators filed a brief in support of an effort to block a mask requirement amid one of America's most dire outbreaks. And in Mississippi, Governor Tate Reeves defended his move this week to end his own mandate, the first such move in the U.S.
Quote from: T. D. on October 02, 2020, 03:44:05 PM
180 k population "tiny"? In New York, that would rank 20th out of 62 counties. I live on the Western edge of a county (Ulster) with population 177k, but nearby counties have only 75 (Sullivan), 45 (Delaware) and 31 (Schoharie) k.
For perspective: I live in a city whose population is about equal to that of Shasta County. It is not the biggest city in my county (Broward), which has a population only slightly less than that of 3 states (S Dakota, N Dakota, Wyoming) combined (about 1.9 million vs about 2.1 million). And it's not the biggest county in my state (Florida).
So from certain perspectives Shasta County is tiny.
OTOH, Daverz has Newsom, you have Coumo, and I have...DeSantis.
I mean, I'm from a city of 8 million people, and it certainly has large neighbourhoods dominated by people as conservative and covid-denying as any rural California county, if not more so. (Cuomo has recently reimposed a lockdown on a few of these neighbourhoods—Borough Park, Bensonhurst, Midwood and Williamsburg—which are all full of heavily religious people who decline to wear masks and broke about 80-20 for trump in 2016.) The idea of blue/red states or counties is always flawed. "Red states" like Mississippi and Idaho have some pretty significant "blue cities" like Jackson and Boise which in turn have "red neighbourhoods" etc. At best you can probably speak of blue and red precincts; politics has become universalised to such a degree that a Republican Orthodox Jew from New York City has more in common politically with a Republican Evangelical Christian from Stuttgart, Arkansas (probably follow the same Facebook pages, YouTube channels, Twitter accounts, or TV programs) than a Democratic Orthodox Jew from down the street.
This is not to say that there's not still an urban/rural divide in US politics but it's much less significant than it was, say, ten years ago. I always found it funny that New York Times reporters were travelling to rural Wisconsin in search of Trump supporters when they could have just taken the subway down to Brighton Beach and found just as many.
Quote from: T. D. on October 02, 2020, 03:44:05 PM
180 k population "tiny"? In New York, that would rank 20th out of 62 counties. I live on the Western edge of a county (Ulster) with population 177k, but nearby counties have only 75 (Sullivan), 45 (Delaware) and 31 (Schoharie) k.
Yeah, I shouldn't have said "tiny" population. Shasta actually has a larger population than Humboldt County. I was thinking of one of the almost empty counties like Alpine County.
The very last thing Trump would wish to imply is that his life is worth any more than the lives of all those people who were dying when he was joking about masks, joking about Joe Biden and masks, joking about Biden being practically dead ... to say nothing of all those times past when he joked about Hillary Clinton's pneumonia, or had his proxies joke speculatively that she had suffered a stroke, or was afflicted by dysphasia, or had secretly suffered a serious brain trauma ... I'm sorry, I'm running very low on space here. The point is, this is what he'd WANT – because he loves the lulz. Please honour him thusly.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/02/trump-joked-covid-president-diagnosis-maga-virus?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Quote from: Daverz on October 02, 2020, 02:49:56 PM
Sorry, should have been visit singular:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/opinions/trump-walter-reed-visit-presidents-medical-disclosure-reiner/index.html
Thanks Dave...interesting!
PD
When this is all over and Biden is sworn in I'm gonna pick this up to prepare for what's ahead:
Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity—and Why This Harms Everybody
Cynical Theories contrasts the academic approaches of liberalism and postmodernism, then explains how applied postmodernism (which focuses on ought rather than is) has displaced other approaches to activism and scholarship. The authors present several academic fields—postcolonial theory, queer theory, critical race theory, intersectionality, fourth-wave feminism, gender studies, fat studies, and ableism—and describe how the 'applied postmodernism' approach has developed in each field. The authors use capitalization to distinguish between the liberal concept of social justice and the ideological movement of Social Justice that they state has reified postmodernism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynical_Theories
From the editors of The New Yorker:
"It would surely be a relief simply to have a President who is not a chronic liar, someone who doesn't abuse the office as a colossal grift. It would be a relief to have a President who is reflexively devoted to democratic institutions and refuses to make common cause with white nationalists, QAnon, and other inhabitants of the lunatic fringe. It is true that Biden is not a transcendent speaker or a towering intellect. Yet he has the capacity to convey genuineness and fellow-feeling to a wide range of Americans."
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/10/05/the-new-yorker-endorses-a-biden-presidency
--Bruce
I wonder what specific weight a partisan publication like The New Yorker carries when it comes to endorsements.
Image of the day.
Quote from: Todd on October 03, 2020, 05:50:33 AM
I wonder what specific weight a partisan publication like The New Yorker carries when it comes to endorsements.
By way of contrast, my local paper has actually endorsed no one for county sheriff--that is, called for not voting for any of the three candidates
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/endorsements/fl-op-general-endorse-broward-sheriff-election-20201003-wletn33ltbfs7izx3zgzpoa3bm-story.html
Quote from: JBS on October 03, 2020, 06:56:37 AM
By way of contrast, my local paper has actually endorsed no one for county sheriff--that is, called for not voting for any of the three candidates
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/endorsements/fl-op-general-endorse-broward-sheriff-election-20201003-wletn33ltbfs7izx3zgzpoa3bm-story.html
That's a bit sad, but also interesting.
Unfortunately, the link doesn't work for Europe, and the Sun Sentinel paper apologizes specifically for it.
But supposedly this means that one of the three candidates will still be elected anyway (like say at the presidential elections)?
Or is there a certain number of votes required for getting the mentioned sheriff job?
Quote from: JBS on October 03, 2020, 06:56:37 AM
By way of contrast, my local paper has actually endorsed no one for county sheriff--that is, called for not voting for any of the three candidates
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/endorsements/fl-op-general-endorse-broward-sheriff-election-20201003-wletn33ltbfs7izx3zgzpoa3bm-story.html
What weight will that carry in actual voting? I know local papers have always endorsed candidates for various positions. I've never known or met anyone who pays attention to such endorsements. YMMV.
Mike Lee, Thom Tillis, now Ron Johnson.
ACB could be in trouble.
Boo!
From The Guardian:
QuoteContradictory reports on Donald Trump's health
Just to clarify the two contradictory reports on Donald Trump's health.
His doctor, Sean Conley, stood outside Walter Reed hospital earlier today and said the following:
At this time the team and I are extremely happy with the progress the president has made. Thursday, he had a mild cough and some nasal congestion and fatigue, all of which are now resolving and improving.
A source close to the president, believed to be White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, also briefed reporters on Saturday morning and said something quite different:
The President's vitals over last 24 hours were very concerning and the next 48 hours will be critical in terms of his care. We are still not on a clear path to a full recovery.
So Donald Trump may be fine or he may be very ill, depending on who you believe is correct. But what is not in doubt is that the administration of the most powerful country in the world is unable to give a clear message about the health of its president.
I have a hunch that Trump is in (very) deep sh%t....
Q
Quote from: Que on October 03, 2020, 09:35:29 AM
From The Guardian:
I have a hunch that Trump is in (very) deep sh%t....
Q
For my entire adult life (I'm about to turn 63), the American public has never been accurately apprised of the President's health. The President is always claimed to be doing well. And this goes much further back,
e.g. JFK and FDR.
That said, the Orange Pustule administration operates at hitherto unseen levels of mendacity that even the late Robert Mugabe would have envied :o :laugh:, so I'm far less inclined than usual to believe the current official statements.
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 03, 2020, 07:08:25 AM
That's a bit sad, but also interesting.
Unfortunately, the link doesn't work for Europe, and the Sun Sentinel paper apologizes specifically for it.
But supposedly this means that one of the three candidates will still be elected anyway (like say at the presidential elections)?
Or is there a certain number of votes required for getting the mentioned sheriff job?
Whoever gets the most votes, even if very few votes are cast
The three candidates are a former sheriff's deputy who isn't really qualified, a lawyer who isn't qualified, and the incumbent, who was appointed by Gov. DeSantis earlier this year, is not really qualified, is possibly corrupt, not liked by his department, but has name recognition, donors with money, and is the official candidate of the Democratic Party. The first two have almost no hope of winning. The article argues that the best way to show the system for electing sheriffs is broken is to not vote at all.
Quote from: JBS on October 03, 2020, 10:09:03 AM
Whoever gets the most votes, even if very few votes are cast
The three candidates are a former sheriff's deputy who isn't really qualified, a lawyer who isn't qualified, and the incumbent, who was appointed by Gov. DeSantis earlier this year, is not really qualified, is possibly corrupt, not liked by his department, but has name recognition, donors with money, and is the official candidate of the Democratic Party. The first two have almost no hope of winning. The article argues that the best way to show the system for electing sheriffs is broken is to not vote at all.
Thank you, that clarifies it. Interesting though that apparently, one could then win, getting say only 2 votes ... but afterwards, I guess, the legitimacy of the whole thing would then be questioned.
BREAKING: Mike Pence has been flown to a golf course with a tactical caddy unit ... Should he need to assume duty as POTUS
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 03, 2020, 03:25:51 PM
BREAKING: Mike Pence has been flown to a golf course with a tactical caddy unit ... Should he need to assume duty as POTUS
:laugh:
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 03, 2020, 03:25:51 PM
BREAKING: Mike Pence has been flown to a golf course with a tactical caddy unit ... Should he need to assume duty as POTUS First Golfer
Corrected ;)
I occasionally watch Foxnews in order to check out how they are spinning the news.
I saw something on Hannity's show that was very upsetting.
There was a women commentator (I can not remember her name) carrying on that liberals were praying for the death of Trump.
What the???????
Now there are over 300 million people in the United States. I would not be surprised if there were a few million sickos who actually felt this way.
I watch MSNBC on a regular basis and I have not heard one commentator or guest praying for the death of Trump.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 03, 2020, 03:39:51 PM
I occasionally watch Foxnews in order to check out how they are spinning the news.
I saw something on Hannity's show that was very upsetting.
There was a women commentator (I can not remember her name) carrying on that liberals were praying for the death of Trump.
What the???????
Now there are over 300 million people in the United States. I would not be surprised if there were a few million sickos who actually felt this way.
I watch MSNBC on a regular basis and I have not heard one commentator or guest praying for the death of Trump.
This from the people who were positively gleeful after the death of RBG.
I endorse the following statement from crooksandliars.com:
NOTE: Although Trump's inaction, science denial and failure to follow basic CDC recommendations contributed to the deaths of 207,000 innocent Americans, we
wish all those infected at the Ramming Amy Coney Barrett To SCOTUS SuperSpreader Event recover enough that they can lose their upcoming elections and face
trial for their many crimes.
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/10/trumps-doctor-update-his
Righteous wrath is the best kind of wrath.
Quote from: Daverz on October 03, 2020, 04:02:59 PM
This from the people who were positively gleeful after the death of RBG.
I endorse the following statement from crooksandliars.com:
NOTE: Although Trump's inaction, science denial and failure to follow basic CDC recommendations contributed to the deaths of 207,000 innocent Americans, we
wish all those infected at the Ramming Amy Coney Barrett To SCOTUS SuperSpreader Event recover enough that they can lose their upcoming elections and face
trial for their many crimes.
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/10/trumps-doctor-update-his
[Emphasis added]
Nice thought, but not bloody likely considering all the jurists the super-spreaders managed to appoint. :'(
and David Frum in The Atlantic:
[...]"You cannot expect Trump to gain any wisdom, empathy, or compassion for others. Throughout the pandemic, Trump has disdained the hardships suffered by sick and dying Americans, by their families and neighbors, by those who have lost jobs and homes. When NBC's Peter Alexander asked Trump on March 20 what the president would say to Americans feeling fear because of the disease, he upbraided Alexander: "I'd say you are a terrible reporter." When Republican Senator Mitt Romney self-isolated because he had been exposed to COVID-19 by the negligent selfishness of Senator Rand Paul, Trump sarcastically said to reporters, "Oh, that's too bad." It's a consistent pattern for Trump; on October 2, 2016, four years ago to the day of Trump's COVID-positive acknowledgment, Trump cruelly pantomimed onstage Hillary Clinton's campaign-season bout of pneumonia.
What you can expect is a lot of victimhood and self-pity. Trump and those around him have always demanded for themselves the decencies that they refuse others. They will get them, too. Trump's opponents will express concern and good wishes—and if they do not, Trump's allies will complain that those opponents are allowing politics to overwhelm human feeling. It was only three days ago that Trump on a debate stage dismissed Biden's dead son, Beau, and falsely claimed that Biden's surviving son, Hunter, had been dishonorably discharged from the military.* The next day, Trump's eldest son, Donald Jr., appeared on Glenn Beck's show to describe Hunter as a "crackhead." Now, though, we will hear a lot about how people are not being respectful enough to a president in his time of illness.
Trump has all his life posed a moral puzzle: What is due in the way of kindness and sympathy to people who have no kindness and sympathy for anyone else? Should we repay horrifying cruelty in equal measure? Then we reduce ourselves to their level. But if we return indecency with the decency due any other person in need, don't we encourage appalling behavior? Don't we prove to them that they belong to some unique bracket of humanity, entitled to kick others when they are writhing on the floor, and then to claim mercy when their own crimes and cruelties cast them upon the floor themselves?"[...]
What Did You Expect? (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/what-did-you-expect-donald-trump/616583/)
No matter how badly they behave there is one line I will not cross. I will not pray for the death of Trump or any of his minions.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 03, 2020, 06:22:38 PM
No matter how badly they behave there is one line I will not cross. I will not pray for the death of Trump or any of his minions.
Being a nonbeliever, and so without an object of divine supplication, my thoughts on the life and fate of Donald Trump express themselves in more worldly terms. I made a ten dollar bet with a friend that Trump wouldn't finish a term in office. If Trump dying of Covid-19 were the only way I could collect, would I still covet and relish those ten bucks? You betcha'. Absofickenlutely. Would I feel badly about it? Not a bit. A world without Trump sounds delightful. And when you think about it, any sense of cosmic order, karmic justice, or, at the least, comic plot logic more or less requires his demise by virus.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 03, 2020, 07:33:03 PM
Being a nonbeliever, and so without an object of divine supplication, my thoughts on the life and fate of Donald Trump express themselves in more worldly terms. I made a ten dollar bet with a friend that Trump wouldn't finish a term in office. If Trump dying of Covid-19 were the only way I could collect, would I still covet and relish those ten bucks? You betcha'. Absofickenlutely. Would I feel badly about it? Not a bit. A world without Trump sounds delightful. And when you think about it, any sense of cosmic order, karmic justice, or, at the least, comic plot logic more or less requires his demise by virus.
I am an agnostic and I will still do not wish his demise.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 03, 2020, 06:22:38 PM
No matter how badly they behave there is one line I will not cross. I will not pray for the death of Trump or any of his minions.
Nor will I.
Besides, I want him to live so that he can experience crushing defeat in November, and then (hopefully) face charges for obstruction of justice, falsifying business records, tax fraud, and who knows what else.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/donald-trump-criminal-case.html (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/donald-trump-criminal-case.html)
Obviously the photos of him working at the hospital are staged for PR.
There are quite a lot of strange circumstances, discussed for example here
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/1312616578773446656
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8wzK0LY/white-house-staff-wait-for-u-s-president-trump-to-depart-for-walter-reed-medical-center-at-the-whit.png) (https://postimages.org/)
White House staff await Trump's departure to Walter Reed Medical Center.
No editorializing; I just find the photo arresting.
Yeah, it's like they can wear facemasks at last now.
Due to Trump's "people like us don't need no masks" craziness there's a pretty solid chance the entire WH will be depopulated soon.
Trump, Hicks and other infected people have been meeting people like nothing happened in the first half of the week. There was no communication and apparently there still isn't any.
Quote from: Herman on October 04, 2020, 12:09:18 AM
Yeah, it's like they can wear facemasks at last now.
Due to Trump's "people like us don't need no masks" craziness there's a pretty solid chance the entire WH will be depopulated soon.
Trump, Hicks and other infected people have been meeting people like nothing happened in the first half of the week. There was no communication and apparently there still isn't any.
I wonder what it is in these republicans that led so many to disregard precautions? Maybe they really felt the disease is beneath them? I don't wish death on anyone but I think the illness is deserved because this group spent so much time promoting bullshit and gaslighting the public. The "post-modern" part of tump I meant to say some months ago is the idea that there is no truth, no facts, etc. They also argued that it didn't matter if a conman "ran" things. One couldn't have written a better end to this presidency if one tried.
In a darkly ironic and even comic way, during these end times, it's the candidate who doesn't get the plague who wins. How many weeks do we have left? I hope we're in the clear and can say good riddance and "you're fired" to the great pussy-grabber, the American hero of studio 54, the man with the tallest building after 911, etc.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 03, 2020, 07:33:03 PM
A world without Trump sounds delightful.
I'd like even more a World were people are knowledgeable and wise enough to never elect people like Trump as their leader.
Trump is just a greedy and vapid narcissist perfect to exploit the fears, ignorance and need for a cult leader among voters.
Is Trump still going to steal the election and then serve a third term?
Superspreader:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-04/trump-tempted-fate-long-before-rose-garden-coronavirus-cluster
Quote from: milk on October 04, 2020, 01:49:56 AM
I wonder what it is in these republicans that led so many to disregard precautions?
It's a cult.
They're scared of him, and they want to get his approval, even though by now it's pretty clear that this doesn't mean anything.
Biden's national lead over Trump jumps to 14 points after debate in NBC News/WSJ poll (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/biden-s-national-lead-over-trump-jumps-14-points-after-n1242018)
That Trump third term is looking certain now.
Quote from: Herman on October 04, 2020, 05:50:02 AM
It's a cult.
They're scared of him, and they want to get his approval, even though by now it's pretty clear that this doesn't mean anything.
And they share Leader's disregard for anyone else's wellbeing.
Little evidence that White House has offered contact tracing, guidance to hundreds potentially exposed (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/white-house-covid-contact-tracing/2020/10/03/2a6b8e2a-05a1-11eb-897d-3a6201d6643f_story.html)
"White House incompetence on full display for the world to see! On Monday, the entire city of DC had only 14 new cases of COVID. Trump White House alone is now responsible for 23 new cases & rising. They had every privilege available to them to limit the spread of the virus & they blew it."
Column: Biden, like Trump, wants to turn back the political clock (https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-10-04/biden-pennsylvania-working-class-voters)
Elderly folks often times can't let go of the past. Sometimes, it's all they have. I'll guess Super-Creepy 46's advisors will be less prone to nostalgia than their decrepit boss.
Proud boys! Stand back and stand by!
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23ProudBoys&src=trend_click&vertical=trends
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 05:45:27 AM
Is Trump still going to steal the election and then serve a third term?
I don't even know what's going to drive leftists mad more: Trump winning or Trump losing? ;D
Quote from: arpeggio on October 03, 2020, 08:08:44 PM
I am an agnostic and I will still do not wish his demise.
I didn't wish Trump's demise. I just observed that if I had to spend $10 to save his life, I wouldn't.
I too would like to see justice served and see Trump in jail where he belongs, I'm just in doubt that it would happen even if he loses.
Quote from: Dowder on October 04, 2020, 08:13:58 AM
That guy is a moral authority? LMFAO
There are over a million dead Iraqis because of that turd and others like him who supported regime change.
So you choose to blame journalists rather than the people who falsified CIA intelligence and actually engineered and ordered the war?
Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 08:13:41 AM
I don't even know what's going to drive leftists mad more: Trump winning or Trump losing? ;D
Winning, for sure.
After Super-Creepy 46 wins, much of the hysterical nonsense lefties have been writing and saying for years will disappear into the ether. For instance, the absolute certainty of Trump stealing the election and installing himself for life, an idea advanced and defended right on this forum by self-styled intellectuals, will magically give way to praising the brave and persistent actions behind the scenes of various Dem functionaries, or perhaps the fact that the people woke up (even if they do not necessarily become woke), or whatever. The occasional excitement about ideas such as packing the court and pushing for various Constitutional Amendments will wax and wane, but not a lot will change. Maybe the Electoral College will be vanquished this time around, though. jk
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 04, 2020, 09:05:27 AM
So you choose to blame journalists rather than the people who falsified CIA intelligence and actually engineered and ordered the war?
Frum was a speechwriter in Dubya's administration; not a journalist.
I like the current Frum.
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 09:43:51 AM
Winning, for sure.
If he wins against all odds, I'll be sorry for some GMGers yet I'll rejoice over some others. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 10:01:15 AM
If he wins against all odds, I'll be sorry for some GMGers yet I'll rejoice over some others. ;D
If Trump wins reelection, I will laugh heartily, and then enjoy years of Democrat and non-American whining and virtue signaling that will reach new levels of intensity and stupidity. (Expect at least one more shot at impeachment, for instance.) I will also watch with keen interest to see what type of permanent damage Trump can do to the existing international order.
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 10:05:03 AM
what type of permanent damage Trump can do to the existing international order.
None whatsoever.
Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 10:06:14 AM
None whatsoever.
I disagree. Trump has already eroded confidence in the order, though he has not materially altered commitments to existing treaties on the security side, though on the economic side he has abandoned certain trade agreements and effectively hobbled the WTO. I'd prefer a shift of effective focus, but I will take what I can get. The fears of various internationalist sorts, covered in more measured and informed tones in foreign policy journals and books, and more hysterically in the popular press and online, will inch forward under four more years of Trump. Alas, Super-Creepy 46 will do all he can to reverse the damage and move to a status quo ante.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 04, 2020, 09:05:27 AM
I didn't wish Trump's demise. I just observed that if I had to spend $10 to save his life, I wouldn't.
I too would like to see justice served and see Trump in jail where he belongs, I'm just in doubt that it would happen even if he loses.
So you choose to blame journalists rather than the people who falsified CIA intelligence and actually engineered and ordered the war?
If you are going to blame journalists, blame the ones who didn't challenge the narrative that was used to justify the Iraq war.
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 10:16:39 AM
I disagree.
Please show me what type of permanent damage Trump has done to the existing international order.
Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 10:40:23 AM
Please show me what type of permanent damage Trump has done to the existing international order.
Go ahead and read up on the items I cited.
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 10:45:10 AM
Go ahead and read up on the items I cited.
NATO is business as usual, Russia is business as usual, China is business as usual. The existing international order is exactly like it was before Trump got elected POTUS. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share it.
Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 11:07:57 AM
NATO is business as usual, Russia is business as usual, China is business as usual. The existing international order is exactly like it was before Trump got elected POTUS. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share it.
Incorrect on all counts. Go ahead and read up on the items I cited. Also, read up on international payments.
Quote from: Herman on October 04, 2020, 09:45:58 AM
Frum was a speechwriter in Dubya's administration; not a journalist.
I like the current Frum.
So do I. Both of his books are great.
Quote from: Dowder on October 04, 2020, 08:13:58 AM
That guy is a moral authority? LMFAO
There are over a million dead Iraqis because of that turd and others like him who supported regime change.
Another false equivalency brought to you by Dowder.
So what? Frum's background does not exonerate Trump from being responsible for the unnecessary deaths of Kurds, Americans and many others.
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 12:18:23 PM
Incorrect on all counts.
Please correct me on all counts.
Nearly all of us wish, in spite of Trump's own pathological lack of empathy, the President to recover. Worth pointing out that a recovery will be in spite of his own behavior in a number of ways, including his blatant disregard for the safety of himself and others, and the lousy care he takes of his "great genes" body.
Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2020, 12:42:16 PM
Please correct me on all counts.
Nah, I won't waste my time.
White House Correspondents Association: 'Outrageous' for Trump to leave hospital without informing pool (https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/519563-correspondents-association-outrageous-for-trump-to-leave-hospital)
The feel good story of the day: Trump outrages the press again, and they pretend as though he has an actual obligation to inform the press of every action he may take, even if it is a dumb one.
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 09:43:51 AM
Winning, for sure.
After Super-Creepy 46 wins, much of the hysterical nonsense lefties have been writing and saying for years will disappear into the ether. For instance, the absolute certainty of Trump stealing the election and installing himself for life, an idea advanced and defended right on this forum by self-styled intellectuals, will magically give way to praising the brave and persistent actions behind the scenes of various Dem functionaries, or perhaps the fact that the people woke up (even if they do not necessarily become woke), or whatever. The occasional excitement about ideas such as packing the court and pushing for various Constitutional Amendments will wax and wane, but not a lot will change. Maybe the Electoral College will be vanquished this time around, though. jk
Democrats are good at turning against each other. A century of progressively worse academic gibberish has found its way into the brains and feeds of millennials and zoomers armed with virtual firing squads. Insofar as "structural change" has any meaning whatsoever, Harris ain't it and she's on deck. She has the right identity credentials, minus points for sticking with the sex (and/or gender) she was born wit; will it make up for her popularity with billionaire donors? Never mind. There's an all-out ideological war coming as there's really no way to stop bad incidents from happening in a country full of guns, still hell-bent on drug wars, and rife with police armed with military paraphernalia. But even were those things improved, someone saying the wrong thing now equals violence and warrants the highest outrage. There's a circular firing squad coming, especially since supremacies and phobias can only be located in grand amorphous "structures." Everything is evidence for the structure. It's not just the American constitution that's founded on othering and domination, it's western liberal humanism. Structure can not be located in any one person or law so the fight to destroy this damned society continues. Onward and upward!
Quote from: milk on October 04, 2020, 04:00:12 PM
It's not just the American constitution that's founded on othering and domination, it's western liberal humanism. Structure can not be located in any one person or law so the fight to destroy this damned society continues. Onward and upward!
I thought you were opposed to cynical theory.
Quote from: drogulus on October 04, 2020, 04:17:44 PM
I thought you were opposed to cynical theory.
critical theory and applied post-modernism. I'm a bit fascinated by how much it's gotten through and how bad it seems to me now. Maybe it's not really fair to blame this generation since my Gen X was already being taught this stuff. Plus, I went along with it when I was young. I think it's the kind of thing that really appeals to youth. When I was at university doing my B.A. in the late 80s, we took over our administration building for three days. It was a pretty amazing experience. Now I see how callow it was. I think dreams of utopia are sexy and were, at that time, out of reach. Now we see it being funded by the richest corps in America. And there's social media to weaponize it.
I have just read some sources of people who are praying for Trump to die. Some of their justifications is that there were conservatives celebrating the death of Ginsberg.
Maybe Todd is correct. We are all a group of hopeless losers.
I hope not.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 04, 2020, 09:17:41 PM
I have just read some sources of people who are praying for Trump to die. Some of their justifications is that there were conservatives celebrating the death of Ginsberg.
Maybe Todd is correct. We are all a group of hopeless losers.
I hope not.
tump is the main loser in this, given he how he publicly mused, many times, about the possible (and imagined) illnesses of his political opponents.
Quote from: Todd on October 04, 2020, 03:44:24 PM
Nah, I won't waste my time.
As you wish, but I still think that Trump has not fundamentally altered the international order nor has he inflicted any permanent damage on it.
Pope Francis is right, capitalism is a wrong:
https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/04/pope-francis-says-covid-19-has-proved-capitalism-does-not-work?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_content=pope-francis-says-covid-19-has-proved-capitalism-does-not-work&_ope=eyJndWlkIjoiMTRlZTE4MDQ0NGRhN2VmOGNkYjM0MzZkN2MxMmY1ZDIifQ%3D%3D
What if Pope Francis is wrong?
Quote from: arpeggio on October 04, 2020, 09:17:41 PM
I have just read some sources of people who are praying for Trump to die. Some of their justifications is that there were conservatives celebrating the death of Ginsberg.
Maybe Todd is correct. We are all a group of hopeless losers.
I hope not.
Oh Jeez! All this hand wringing over the perfectly natural hope that Trump might cease to be? ::) You've got to be kidding. After years of bullshit and infantile demands for attention from this vile excuse for a human being, this poster boy for all the seven deadly sins, this rotting husk devoid of any cardinal virtue or redeeming quality, I'd say those who find themselves wishing for Trump's demise have earned the right to that hope.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 05, 2020, 04:35:40 AM
Oh Jeez! All this hand wringing over the perfectly natural hope that Trump might cease to be? ::) You've got to be kidding. After years of bullshit and infantile demands for attention from this vile excuse for a human being, this poster boy for all the seven deadly sins, this rotting husk devoid of any cardinal virtue or redeeming quality, I'd say those who find themselves wishing for Trump's demise have earned the right to that hope.
At least some leftists can accept how loathsome they are, and even revel in it. Good job.
I can't believe that Pres. Trump might be leaving the hospital today. Will he self-quarantine in the White House? Or risk getting more people infected (I read about his car ride earlier today). Any word about how the First Lady is doing?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 05, 2020, 05:24:27 AM
I can't believe that Pres. Trump might be leaving the hospital today. Will he self-quarantine in the White House? Or risk getting more people infected (I read about his car ride earlier today). Any word about how the First Lady is doing?
PD
Some are saying that it's #45's wish to leave the hospital, but that most doctors would be against it, and that the medication itself suggests problems.
He has just produced 16 capital-letters tweets in 30 minutes.
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 05, 2020, 05:33:24 AM
Some are saying that it's #45's wish to leave the hospital, but that most doctors would be against it, and that the medication itself suggests problems.
He hast just produced 16 capital-letters tweets in 30 minutes.
Will somebody please take away his keyboard? ::)
What is it about the medication? I hadn't heard anything about that.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 05, 2020, 05:38:23 AM
Will somebody please take away his keyboard? ::)
What is it about the medication? I hadn't heard anything about that.
PD
Well, he's not crippled in any way, obviously - but there's some info regarding the medication here, it's just an example of what many sources are writing though -
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1312792223428165633.html
(= https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29665.msg1323546.html#msg1323546)
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 05, 2020, 05:46:40 AM
Well, he's not crippled in any way, obviously - but there's some info regarding the medication here, it's just an example of what many sources are writing though -
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1312792223428165633.html
(= https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29665.msg1323546.html#msg1323546)
Thank you for the links!
Quote from: Todd on October 05, 2020, 04:38:37 AM
At least some leftists can accept how loathsome they are, and even revel in it. Good job.
After your loathsome response, I take back what I said.
Quote from: Christo on October 05, 2020, 04:19:34 AM
Pope Francis is right, capitalism is a wrong:
https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/04/pope-francis-says-covid-19-has-proved-capitalism-does-not-work?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_content=pope-francis-says-covid-19-has-proved-capitalism-does-not-work&_ope=eyJndWlkIjoiMTRlZTE4MDQ0NGRhN2VmOGNkYjM0MzZkN2MxMmY1ZDIifQ%3D%3D
I read the article with enthusiasm. What many people call capitalism today is significantly different from what Adam Smith had in his mind. Adam Smith envisaged a society with corruption-free market, ethics, and empathy.
What if Adam Smith was wrong?
Adam Smith was not quite that naive and stupid. He knew that there were preconditions for working liberalism and free market economy. (That's probably one reason why he wrote a book on moral philosophy before he wrote the Wealth of Nations). According to a famous quote he was also well aware that corruption was very hard to avoid in the "market": "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
But Smith was probably not aware how precariously balanced a liberal system would be because it would basically undermine itself by gradually or quickly destroying its own pre-conditions. This was realized only about two generations later by Marx (that capitalism dissolves all traditional relations etc.). (But Marx thought that this was good because for his utopian society such traditions would also impede the freedom he envisioned, because he really wanted to bring forth a "new man" which was arguably more naive and stupid than Smith.) So we have been aware of this for at least about 160 years. So for 200 years we have been running on fumes of the morality and unwritten rules someone like Smith would have taken for granted. Not surprising that some things could finally collapse and cannot be papered over by cheap trinkets and computer games.
Cool, we have arrived at the point where Capitalism itself is doomed, doomed. For those who disagree, here's fresh evidence:
'Doomed to fail': Why a $4 trillion bailout couldn't revive the American economy
An avalanche of U.S. grants and loans helped the wealthy and companies that laid off workers. Individuals received about one-fifth of the aid. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/business/coronavirus-bailout-spending/)
It's probably time to stockpile provisions, snap up the latest assault rifles, and buy a properly fortified bunker or a diesel RV.
Either that, or vote Biden.
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 05, 2020, 05:33:24 AM
He has just produced 16 capital-letters tweets in 30 minutes.
The president of the United States is in the hospital because he and his party didn't take Covid-19 seriously enough tweeting non-stop with capital letters. Let's just say the 21st century isn't going the way I thought it would go back in the 80's and 90's...
Quote from: Todd on October 05, 2020, 09:22:01 AM
Cool, we have arrived at the point where Capitalism itself is doomed, doomed. For those who disagree, here's fresh evidence:
'Doomed to fail': Why a $4 trillion bailout couldn't revive the American economy
An avalanche of U.S. grants and loans helped the wealthy and companies that laid off workers. Individuals received about one-fifth of the aid. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/business/coronavirus-bailout-spending/)
It's probably time to stockpile provisions, snap up the latest assault rifles, and buy a properly fortified bunker or a diesel RV.
Either that, or vote Biden.
Well,
social democracy would have been a solution to "save" capitalism in the US, but Americans have been misled to reject such a solution so here we are.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 09:42:55 AM
Well, social democracy would have been a solution to "save" capitalism in the US, but Americans have been misled to reject such a solution so here we are.
Again with the "we". Anyway, a Biden presidency with attendant incremental policy changes seems a more likely outcome.
Quote from: Todd on October 05, 2020, 09:45:43 AM
Anyway, a Biden presidency with attendant incremental policy changes seems a more likely outcome.
Yes, agreed. Biden is a centrist corporatist, practically a moderate Republican who is for upholding the status quo with possibly some incrementalism such as expanding ObamaCare. The problem with incrementalism is it's too slow and also the next Republican president can easily walk back most of the progress done just like Trump has done with ObamaCare. :P
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 10:02:20 AM
Yes, agreed. Biden is a centrist corporatist, practically a moderate Republican who is for upholding the status quo with possibly some incrementalism such as expanding ObamaCare. The problem with incrementalism is it's too slow and also the next Republican president can easily walk back most of the progress done just like Trump has done with ObamaCare. :P
What do you call a moderate Republican? A Democrat.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 05, 2020, 10:14:07 AM
What do you call a moderate Republican? A Democrat.
Not
any Democrat. AOC is not a moderate Republican, but unfortunately many Democrats are practically moderate Republicans supporting ObamaCare (originally Republican plan) rather than public option not to mention single payer healthcare. Only the most left Republicans are any more "Republican". The rest of them are more like far-right corporate socialism/crony capitalism fascists.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 09:36:37 AM
The president of the United States is in the hospital because he and his party didn't take Covid-19 seriously enough tweeting non-stop with capital letters. Let's just say the 21st century isn't going the way I thought it would go back in the 80's and 90's...
#45 now tweeting that he feels better than 20 years ago, and announces that he will be leaving the hospital soon, at 6.30 PM.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313186529058136070
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 10:02:20 AM
Yes, agreed. Biden is a centrist corporatist, practically a moderate Republican who is for upholding the status quo with possibly some incrementalism such as expanding ObamaCare. The problem with incrementalism is it's too slow and also the next Republican president can easily walk back most of the progress done just like Trump has done with ObamaCare. :P
Incrementalism is what is possible. You like pie in the sky.
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 05, 2020, 10:55:48 AM
#45 now tweeting that he feels better than 20 years ago, and announces that he will be leaving the hospital soon, at 6.30 PM.
Maybe he wants to die at the White House.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 10:02:20 AM
The problem with incrementalism is it's too slow and also the next Republican president can easily walk back most of the progress done just like Trump has done with ObamaCare. :P
Incrementalist Biden will favor a public option among other reforms to OCare. As inadequate as Ocare was, it was not a small increment, it was quite a large one.
Quote from: Todd on October 05, 2020, 11:06:48 AM
Incrementalism is what is possible. You like pie in the sky.
Well and succinctly put.
Quote from: Todd on October 05, 2020, 11:06:48 AM
Incrementalism is what is possible. You like pie in the sky.
With political will almost anything is possible. The "pie in the sky" I like has been possible in all other developped countries, but not in the US because of oligarchy. If you remove money in politics so that top 1 % and big corporations don't buy politicians the "pie in the sky" stuff is pretty easy to do. Incrementalism is about going ahead as slowly as possible to serve those who don't want progress because they benefit from the rigged status quo.
Quote from: drogulus on October 05, 2020, 11:23:24 AM
Incrementalist Biden will favor a public option among other reforms to OCare. As inadequate as Ocare was, it was not a small increment, it was quite a large one.
I believe Biden is backing off of even public option, because his donors are nervous it will reveal how popular public healthcare will be when most people choose public option. Also, you must start from the furthest left position (NHS style UK healthcare) before compromising with Republicans.
ObamaCare was perhaps a big step, put still a fraction of the change needed in the US. Obama should have done at least public option.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 11:37:36 AMWith political will almost anything is possible.
Nope.
Quote from: krummholz on October 05, 2020, 11:32:01 AM
Well and succinctly put.
Huggy Bear's most insightful post in five years
Quote from: Todd on October 05, 2020, 11:47:33 AM
Nope.
So how did all other developed countries do single payer healthcare? Isn't it strange how the borders of the US define what's possible and what's not? Inside you just can't have everyone covered (according to corporates), but outside it's just done. For example the northern border between Canada and the USA. Cross it to the northern side and suddenly everybody has healthcare (except for dental - even Canadians suck at something) and even drugs are 10 times cheaper. Canada is as far as I know a capitalistic country, but it's not
crony capitalism with corporate socialism like it's Southern neighbor.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 01:32:04 PM
So how did all other developed countries do single payer healthcare? Isn't it strange how the borders of the US define what's possible and what's not? Inside you just can't have everyone covered (according to corporates), but outside it's just done. For example the northern border between Canada and the USA. Cross it to the northern side and suddenly everybody has healthcare (except for dental - even Canadians suck at something) and even drugs are 10 times cheaper. Canada is as far as I know a capitalistic country, but it's not crony capitalism with corporate socialism like it's Southern neighbor.
1)There are in fact a number of developed countries which do not have single payer healthcare, even if they do have universal coverage of some sort.
2)May I draw your attention to the fact that the citizens of Canada vote in Canada, not in the U.S.? And that the citizens of the U.S. vote in the U.S., not in Canada?
Quote from: Todd on October 05, 2020, 11:06:48 AM
Incrementalism is what is possible. You like pie in the sky.
Wait, what? Todd is for incrementalism? Is that forward incrementalism or backward incrementalism? I thought he was for the guys that are packing the Supreme Court with far right radicals that are all hot to take us back to the Lochner era (at least).
Stare decisis be damned, if it offends thee, overturn it.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 10:30:12 AM
Not any Democrat. AOC is not a moderate Republican, but unfortunately many Democrats are practically moderate Republicans supporting ObamaCare (originally Republican plan) rather than public option not to mention single payer healthcare. Only the most left Republicans are any more "Republican". The rest of them are more like far-right corporate socialism/crony capitalism fascists.
Sorry. You do not get the joke.
Well, another night Crazy Man Trump did not push the button...
Something that seems to have slipped people's mind (perhaps because they were infected too) is Melania.
When Crazy Man went to Walter Reid he gave a show of husband-and-wife-in-it-together, but since then he's been steroid-busy signing blank papers and joyriding town and no word of Melania.
Maybe a cognitive test question "What's your wife's name?" would be too confusing now...
I guess he would just say "Trump."
Quote from: Dowder on October 05, 2020, 10:29:51 PM
You'd like a left wing extremist who would tell the entire country to submit to their view of the constitution and let the military or national guard loose on any resisting constituency.
What is this "view of the constitution" you fear? Who on the left has spoken about "letting the military or national guard loose on any resisting constituency"? You are strawmanning hard and I am calling it out. Perhaps
your side, the right-wingers do have some fascist tendencies and weird interpretations of the constitution, but that doesn't mean the left has too, so what you do here is projection.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 05, 2020, 09:08:01 PM
Sorry. You do not get the joke.
Because I didn't write Hahaah? Sorry about elaborating your joke without using ;D emoji, because the more progressive gain power within the Democratic party the less general the joke becomes.
Quote from: Daverz on October 05, 2020, 02:05:33 PM
Wait, what? Todd is for incrementalism?
It's not that. He is just parroting what he has learned from corporate media. Have you noticed Todd never explains anything? Whether he is lazy or he just can't, which is not surprising if he takes things (that make him feel good) for granted without thinking them through himself.
Positive news:
Gay people are trolling the Proud Boys on social media by posting gayish pictures and using the hashtag #ProudBoys. ;D
Negative news:
Leak: Exxon plans HUGE pollution increase.
EPA: You can dump hazardous chemicals on tribal lands in Oklahoma now.
Quote from: Daverz on October 05, 2020, 02:05:33 PMI thought he was for the guys that are packing the Supreme Court with far right radicals that are all hot to take us back to the Lochner era (at least).
I am surprised that you do not know what packing the court means.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 06, 2020, 02:48:58 AMIt's not that. He is just parroting what he has learned from corporate media. Have you noticed Todd never explains anything? Whether he is lazy or he just can't, which is not surprising if he takes things (that make him feel good) for granted without thinking them through himself.
Maybe I learned it from YouTube.
Super weird videos of tump struggling to breathe and triumphantly taking off, and then angrily futzing with, his mask. Looks like a nut-job. After nearly 4 years of this, there's still room for America's Stupidest Presidential Videos.
Trump appears to struggle to breathe in video of his return to the White House after COVID-19 treatment in the hospital
https://www.businessinsider.com/video-trump-appears-struggle-breathe-white-house-2020-10
The Weirdest 90 Seconds in Presidential History
https://thebulwark.com/the-weirdest-90-seconds-in-presidential-history/?fbclid=IwAR2KHIMRQ77-sLLzm6pyJaG__KOCNn2YH9pf7fSg685NIpTBTHjAMcGKsIk
Quote from: 71 dB on October 05, 2020, 11:43:50 AM
I believe Biden is backing off of even public option, because his donors are nervous it will reveal how popular public healthcare will be when most people choose public option.
Most Biden donors probably support a public option or have no objection to such a plan.
Why employers are flirting with the public option (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/08/employers-health-care-public-option-112380)
Big employers still don't embrace the Medicare for All approach championed by Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and others on the Democratic left. But they are no longer monolithically opposed to an in-between step where they don't have to fight with the health industry and workers get an affordable alternative.
The change is driven by business frustration that insurers haven't been able to curb costs and instead allowed hospitals and doctors to profit at employers' expense. Relieved of the financial and administrative burden of providing worker health care, employers could offer other perks to attract talent in a tight job market. This article mentioning a tight job market is from February.
Some companies might choose to be tight-lipped about getting out of the health care business for political reasons.
Democrats also haven't elaborated on the ways a public option might affect the hefty break employers get for covering their workers. A public option can be used to give the break to workers instead. That's a net win all around.
The steroid Trump is getting is used for severe cases, not mild ones. It can reduce the death rate by as much as a third for people on ventilators, and about 20% for people who are receiving oxygen support. Because the steroid suppresses the immune system, it should not be used in less severe cases. Further, it should be pointed out that the drug cocktail that Trump is taking to boost his immune system response is counteracted by the steroid he's taking. His immune system is being boosted and suppressed at the same time.
As long as he's having fun...
Chances are he'll be back at Walter Reid soon.
Quote from: Herman on October 06, 2020, 11:26:57 AM
As long as he's having fun...
The steroid makes him feel better, and that typically lasts a few days.
The worlds greatest osteopath says Trump reports no symptoms, which is not the same as statements like "he has no symptoms" or even "he reports having no symptoms".
He looks visibly altered to me.
(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/201005213013-trump-return-hasen-exlarge-169.jpg)
This afternoon Trump announced that there would be no further negotiations on the Covid19 stimulus package now stuck in Congress until after he "wins the election" but meantime called on the Senate to confirm ACB before the election.
https://news.yahoo.com/stock-market-news-live-october-6-2020-222434352.html
Quote from: JBS on October 06, 2020, 01:31:43 PM
This afternoon Trump announced that there would be no further negotiations on the Covid19 stimulus package now stuck in Congress until after he "wins the election" but meantime called on the Senate to confirm ACB before the election.
https://news.yahoo.com/stock-market-news-live-october-6-2020-222434352.html
The Superspreader Court.
Quote from: drogulus on October 06, 2020, 09:53:24 AM
The steroid Trump is getting is used for severe cases, not mild ones. It can reduce the death rate by as much as a third for people on ventilators, and about 20% for people who are receiving oxygen support. Because the steroid suppresses the immune system, it should not be used in less severe cases. Further, it should be pointed out that the drug cocktail that Trump is taking to boost his immune system response is counteracted by the steroid he's taking. His immune system is being boosted and suppressed at the same time.
If Trump has no experience with cortical steroids, he'd better be ready for the crash when he goes off of them. Typically one — well, I did in any case — feels invulnerable and full of energy in the beginning, at least until the borderline insanity, inability to concentrate, and sleep disturbance starts, but when one goes off them one tends to feel decrepit, achy, and depressed.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 06, 2020, 02:54:44 PM
If Trump has no experience with cortical steroids, he'd better be ready for the crash when he goes off of them. Typically one — well, I did in any case — feels invulnerable and full of energy in the beginning, at least until the borderline insanity, inability to concentrate, and sleep disturbance starts, but when one goes off them one tends to feel decrepit, achy, and depressed.
Apparently he's still in the "I'm Superman!" phase. Which (to anyone else) is obviously illusory
Stephen Miller tested positive. The virus is not picky.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 06, 2020, 03:09:37 PM
Apparently he's still in the "I'm Superman!" phase. Which (to anyone else) is obviously illusory
I'd like someone with a real feel for horror and black comedy to direct the movie. In a way, this reminds me of Lumet's Network, which a very specific tone. The tump story has so much of everything it'll take a real vision to depict it for all this things it is. There's also a real science fiction element to the twitter-reality TV President and this pandemic politics.
It's not even over yet.
Quote from: drogulus on October 06, 2020, 03:16:34 PM
Stephen Miller tested positive. The virus is not picky.
That poor virus... :(
A poll has Biden at 51% among White voters.
Quote from: Daverz on October 06, 2020, 06:56:00 PM
That poor virus... :(
Somewhere there's a cage that needs an occupant.
Michael Beschloss, the historian, has an interesting theory to explain Trump's behavior (This is a theory that I know many will disagree with).
Trump knows he is going to lose. So he is employing actions that will make his opponents suffer. If I can not be President I will burn down the house.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 06, 2020, 01:24:56 PM
He looks visibly altered to me.
(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/201005213013-trump-return-hasen-exlarge-169.jpg)
Yes, less
orange.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 06, 2020, 09:27:52 PM
Trump knows he is going to lose. So he is employing actions that will make his opponents suffer. If I can not be President I will burn down the house.
Well, he was never going to win the elections, from when the economy tanked. So he was figuring out a way to win in spite of losing. But that's getting harder, too.
So he's reverting to some narcissist drama, going full John Wayne. Trump is going to be the last cowboy fighting the Indjuns, dying behind a cactus. In this case, the White House.
Again, interesting no one finds it worth their while to mention how (and where) Melania is. It's like she's been disposed of, worthless since the "fuck xmas" stuff was published.
I can't believe there is still talk of debates, while Trump is living his hunkered down maniac dictator last days.
A helicopter lifting him out of DC and off to a (n)jet bringing him to Russia would be more fitting, where Putin will fit him with some concrete shoes, now that he's outlived his usefulness.
To think that only a week ago he was accusing Biden of being on drugs.
Republican fears grow over rising Democratic tide (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/519901-republican-fears-grow-over-rising-democratic-tide)
I wonder if the GOP has consulted with GMG political analysts, particularly the Dutch contingent. GMG political analysts have come to starkly different conclusions.
I'd phrase it differently, i.e. Sinking Republicans.
As has been predicted, Trump is going to take 'em all down.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/07/trump-loses-appeal-to-block-subpoena-for-tax-returns-by-prosecutor.html
Dems are favored to add to their Senate numbers and slightly favored to win a majority. That's if the race is frozen where it is now. An imponderable is if Trump voters stay home.
'A Deeply Divided Nation': 68 Percent of Americans Say the Election Is Causing Significant Stress in Their Lives (https://www.newsweek.com/2020-election-american-significant-stress-divided-nation-1536936?utm_source=pushnami&utm_medium=Push_Notifications&utm_campaign=automatic&UTM=1602072200172)
Hilarious. More hilarious yet is the obvious fact that the US election obviously causes stress to feeble non-Americans.
Quote from: T. D. on October 07, 2020, 06:28:02 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/07/trump-loses-appeal-to-block-subpoena-for-tax-returns-by-prosecutor.html
One can only hope! But would anything be resolved/come to light before the election? Probably not.
PD
Quote from: drogulus on October 07, 2020, 06:52:40 AM
Dems are favored to add to their Senate numbers and slightly favored to win a majority. That's if the race is frozen where it is now. An imponderable is if Trump voters stay home.
Why would they?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 07, 2020, 07:43:40 AM
One can only hope! But would anything be resolved/come to light before the election? Probably not.
PD
No, everything would get stalled.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 07, 2020, 07:45:14 AM
Quote from: drogulus on October 07, 2020, 06:52:40 AM
Dems are favored to add to their Senate numbers and slightly favored to win a majority. That's if the race is frozen where it is now. An imponderable is if Trump voters stay home.
Why would they?
Of course they won't stay home! They'll parade outside polling places with assault rifles to scare away dark-skinned voters!
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 07, 2020, 07:45:14 AM
Why would they?
Some might decide their vote won't matter, so they won't bother. Dems are eager to pile it on. I expect a high turnout for them in states where it matters most.
I assume everyone is like me, only worse. I'm firmly committed to voting according to strong influences from local, national and cosmological states of affairs in no ranked order, a kind of "view from everywhere" you might say. I want the numbers to go "torch mode" just like the Monolith says.
Quote from: T. D. on October 07, 2020, 08:27:53 AM
Of course they won't stay home! They'll parade outside polling places with assault rifles to scare away dark-skinned voters!
That's a different "they".
Increasing number of couples quit marriage or romantic relationships due to the partisan difference. Very few people seek to date a partner who support an opposing party.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/25/fashion/weddings/can-love-relationships-survive-this-election.html
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 07, 2020, 10:10:26 AM
Increasing number of couples quit marriage or romantic relationships due to the partisan difference. Very few people seek to date a partner who support an opposing party.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/25/fashion/weddings/can-love-relationships-survive-this-election.html
Old article, old news, but fortunately the failing New York Times got to repackage a trend observed and reported on for years prior to 2016 and make it about Trump.
People who can't set aside politics when trying to get laid are complete morons. Same goes for people who can't hold a long-term relationship together because of whoever occupies the White House.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-07/republican-campaign-strategy-first-restrict-vote-then-sow-doubt
The Republican Party Is Terrified of Voters
At the state and national levels, the party's strategy is consistent: Make it hard to vote.
The Republican Party is currently engaged in the most sweeping vote suppression campaign since Jim Crow. It's a broad war on voting, encompassing legislation in state capitols, lawsuits in the courts, propaganda at the highest levels of the party and federal government, and a threat of thugs in the streets.
No battle is too embarrassing. In Texas, Governor Greg Abbott pulled a last-minute stunt that left even the state's largest counties with a single ballot drop-off location. In Wisconsin, Republicans are seeking to prevent professional athletes and team mascots — including the Milwaukee Brewers' "Racing Sausages" — from appearing at sports venues that are scheduled to be used as polling sites. The logic is that attractions, such as sports stars, will "encourage people to come out to vote," argued the state party chairman.
Quote from: T. D. on October 07, 2020, 11:01:24 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-07/republican-campaign-strategy-first-restrict-vote-then-sow-doubt
The Republican Party Is Terrified of Voters
At the state and national levels, the party's strategy is consistent: Make it hard to vote.
The Republican Party is currently engaged in the most sweeping vote suppression campaign since Jim Crow. It's a broad war on voting, encompassing legislation in state capitols, lawsuits in the courts, propaganda at the highest levels of the party and federal government, and a threat of thugs in the streets.
No battle is too embarrassing. In Texas, Governor Greg Abbott pulled a last-minute stunt that left even the state's largest counties with a single ballot drop-off location. In Wisconsin, Republicans are seeking to prevent professional athletes and team mascots — including the Milwaukee Brewers' "Racing Sausages" — from appearing at sports venues that are scheduled to be used as polling sites. The logic is that attractions, such as sports stars, will "encourage people to come out to vote," argued the state party chairman.
Aye. voter suppression is all they've got now.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 07, 2020, 11:04:26 AM
Aye. voter suppression is all they've got now.
For long now voter suppression, gerrymandering etc. have kept Republicans in power because the demographic has become more favorable for the Democrats. Less white. Less socialism fearing. Less religious.
Hey - look over there - posts about Classical music! Wow!
Trump just released a video showing him in a very good mood.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1313959702104023047
Watch out or he will rearrange the sock drawers of the entire WH.
Nothing happened at the debate tonight. Pence tried to run out the clock and looked like he needed some of that stuff Trump is on. Harris performed pretty much like she did in the primary debates.
There was a fly on Pence for a time. Bill Kristol noted that it came in second.
Quote from: Dowder on October 07, 2020, 09:58:49 PM
Pence was amazing.
Absolutely. He, too, refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power in January 2021.
Quote from: drogulus on October 07, 2020, 03:02:26 PM
Trump just released a video showing him in a very good mood.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1313959702104023047
Watch out or he will rearrange the sock drawers of the entire WH.
Very hard to parody this guy, even if you get the makeup right
Quote from: Dowder on October 07, 2020, 10:07:15 PM
Plessy was law of the land before Brown overturned it. The military was brought in to enforce it, for good or bad.
So there's hope Roe gets overturned for being the unconstitutional nonsense that it is and now the military will get sicked on those who think killing a baby is perfectly moral.
Well, I wasn't interested of you views about abortion. I was interested to hear about the fachist tendencies you claim the left has.
Also, you do know that the rich people in power who get to decide if abortion is legal or not have their abortions easily no matter what. It doesn't apply to THEM. They can easily go to the next state where abortion is legal and do it there. It is a problem for regular and poor people who do not have the resources to do the same. So, these people are hypocritical and can't talk about moral especially when they often are cool with death penalties and unnecessory wars just to enrich themselfes and of course denying healthcare for millions. They also think being born unwanted into total poverty is ok. That's your morality... ...and if the child was born in Mexico and come to the border... LOCK THEM UP IN CAGES!!!
The Veep debate was a less entertaining show than Trump's interrupt-athon. I could only make it to the point where both Pence and Harris took the question about succession and answered the questions they wanted to answer instead. Run of the mill politics.
Rogue Superpower
Why This Could Be an Illiberal American Century (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-10-06/illiberal-american-century-rogue-superpower?utm_medium=newsletters&utm_source=fatoday&utm_campaign=Rogue%20Superpower&utm_content=20201006&utm_term=FA%20Today%20-%20112017)
The author is a bit too certain and flippant on the impact of demographics, and, at least in this book advertisement article, downplays the more intense competition already underway between China and the US in key strategic areas, but the overall gist of his article is good and includes some attractive visions of potential futures. For instance:
Quote from: Michael BeckleyAlternatively, the United States might exit the global order business altogether. Instead of trying to reassure weaker nations by supporting international rules and institutions, the United States would deploy every tool in its coercive arsenal—tariffs, financial sanctions, visa restrictions, cyber-espionage, and drone strikes—to wring the best deal possible out of both allies and adversaries. There would be no enduring partnerships based on common values—just transactions. U.S. leaders would judge other countries not by their willingness to help solve global problems or whether they were democracies or autocracies but only by their ability to create American jobs or eliminate threats to the U.S. homeland. Most countries, according to these criteria, would be irrelevant.
Trump has backed out of the next debate, because he doesn't like the format.
I'd say DEAL!
The first debate was universally seen as the nadir of how low America can go. His polls have tanked since.
If he wants this to be the last word, fine.
Technically I believe this is called death spiral.
I wonder how a person who claims to run a business has the time to post breaking news on a low traffic website.
From
Quote from: HermanAll I am saying is Trump has consistently talked about extending his presidency, not just in a second term, but a third and fourth, too.
To
Quote from: HermanTechnically I believe this is called death spiral.
And all after one debate is cancelled.
Interesting.
There would be no enduring partnerships based on common values—just transactions. U.S. leaders would judge other countries not by their willingness to help solve global problems or whether they were democracies or autocracies but only by their ability to create American jobs or eliminate threats to the U.S. homeland. Most countries, according to these criteria, would be irrelevant.
This is an example of poor thinking about cooperative versus competitive self interest. In order to defend US interests we cooperate with other countries while competing with them. We draw a distinction between nations we identify as highly cooperative and those that aren't. Our alliances are therefore rational. A feature of the US system is that allies are about as uncoerced as possible given the intrinsic coercive power of economic primacy.
When Dawkins wrote The Selfish Gene he was attacked by poor thinkers who thought he was attacking altruism. One imagines a different kind of poor thinker would celebrate Dawkins for doing so. The truth was that the book explained how selfish bits could assemble into a complex organism that could use cooperation for its own benefit.
Quote from: Dowder on October 07, 2020, 10:08:23 PM
^ If that post gets removed by the mods you know the devil has had his way here.
(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190725131943-francis-bacon-velazquez-pope-tease-super-tease.jpg)
I feel better than I did 500 years ago!
In Michigan the FBI arrested six men who had been planning for months to kidnap Gov Whittmer and abduct her to Wisconsin (pretty scary!) where they would put her "on trial". They were arrested now because they were going to make their move soon.
Obviously this act of domestic terrorism was intended to be part of the chaos necessary to derail the elections.
Liberate Michigan! remember?
Quote from: Dowder on October 07, 2020, 10:08:23 PM
^ If that post gets removed by the mods you know the devil has had his way here.
I am against removing the post.
Dowder is a sick puppy. We should not remove anything that proves that.
Trump says Gold Star families could have given him Covid-19 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/08/trump-gold-star-families-coronavirus-427875)
[...]""Sometimes, I'd be in groups of, for instance, Gold Star families. I met with Gold Star families. I didn't want to cancel that," he said. "But they all came in, and they all talk about their son and daughter and father. And, you know, they all came up to me, and they tell me a story."
The president proceeded to recount some of those interactions.
He said the family members would approach him to "tell me a story about, 'My son, sir, was in Iraq.' Or, 'He was in Afghanistan.' And, 'Sir, he did this, and he did that, and then he charged in order to save his friends.' And, 'Yes, sir, he was killed, but he saved his friends. He's so brave, sir.'"
Trump explained that as he was being told these stories about fallen soldiers, "I can't say, 'Back up, stand 10 feet,' you know? I just can't do it."
At one event, Trump claimed to have "went through, like 35 people" whose family members had died, "and everyone had a different story."
"I can't back up, Maria, and say, 'Give me room. I want room. Give me 12 feet. Stay 12 feet away when you talk,'" he said.
The Gold Star family members "come within an inch of my face, sometimes," Trump said. "They want to hug me, and they want to kiss me. And they do. And, frankly, I'm not telling them to back up. I'm not doing it."[...]
How about this scenario.
One of the families had the virus and they wanted in infect the President ;)
The fly on Pence was not a sign of Satan. Steve Schmidt was crazy last night, not crazy good like Rick Wilson, a different kind of crazy. Can't a fly just be a fly?
Quote from: arpeggio on October 08, 2020, 09:30:24 AM
How about this scenario.
One of the families had the virus and they wanted in infect the President ;)
Most likely none of this ever happened, Trump meeting with Gold Star families.
He's too busy watching tv.
Can you imagine anyone wanting to kiss Trump (other than Ivanka)?
Quote from: Herman on October 08, 2020, 10:48:46 AM
Most likely none of this ever happened, Trump meeting with Gold Star families.
He did meet with Gold Star families on Sept. 27. There's a photo of him addressing them.
(https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/BMuazu9x3l1KslSNqeqqmKYmWFw=/800x533/top/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tronc/2GET2KFGCVAHFADIASWQ5XFGZE.jpg)
Later the group was informed they might have been exposed to the virus. The WH didn't say who exposed the group or how the WH found out that someone might have exposed them.
The New England Journal of Medicine endorses Biden. This is the first time in their history they have made a political endorsement.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2029812 (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2029812)
It will be entertaining reading the Trumpsters reaction to this (Don't disappoint us.).
Quote from: Dowder on October 07, 2020, 09:58:49 PM
Pence was amazing.
Says the guy jumping up and down with pom poms.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 08, 2020, 09:19:25 AM
I am against removing the post.
Dowder is a sick puppy. We should not remove anything that proves that.
Agreed.
I mailed my ballot on Tuesday. I checked the Broward Supervisor of Elections office website this morning, and saw that it was received and counted yesterday.
So that's done and over for.
Quote from: JBS on October 08, 2020, 01:57:59 PM
I mailed my ballot on Tuesday. I checked the Broward Supervisor of Elections office website this morning, and saw that it was received and counted yesterday.
So that's done and over for.
Excellent! I dropped my ballot off early this afternoon!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 08, 2020, 01:59:02 PM
Excellent! I dropped my ballot off early this afternoon!
Great minds think alike, etc.
Quote from: JBS on October 08, 2020, 01:57:59 PM
I mailed my ballot on Tuesday. I checked the Broward Supervisor of Elections office website this morning, and saw that it was received and counted yesterday.
So that's done and over for.
Did you remember to commit fraud?
I vote next Saturday at the town hall. There's nothing special I have to do like count jellybeans or brave a gauntlet of Boogalooers.
You're not supposed to count the jellybeans in the jar, you're supposed to guess at how many there are....
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 08, 2020, 03:11:11 PM
You're not supposed to count the jellybeans in the jar, you're supposed to guess at how many there are....
I can guess better if I count them.
Quote from: JBS on October 08, 2020, 01:57:59 PM
I mailed my ballot on Tuesday. I checked the Broward Supervisor of Elections office website this morning, and saw that it was received and counted yesterday.
So that's done and over for.
Also sent mine in on Tuesday and got notification that USPS received it, but no notification from the registrar of voters yet.
As with posting photos of one's dinner, posting that one voted is meaningful - this year more than ever
Quote from: Todd on October 08, 2020, 04:54:22 PM
As with posting photos of one's dinner, posting that one voted is meaningful - this year more than ever
I live in a swing state.
One positive to living in a non-swing state must be the scarcity of Presidential campaign ads. I think every time I got in the car this week I got to hear Biden talk about his plan for The Virus. (I don't listen to the radio anywhere else.)
Quote from: JBS on October 08, 2020, 05:15:42 PMI live in a swing state.
One positive to living in a non-swing state must be the scarcity of Presidential campaign ads. I think every time I got in the car this week I got to hear Biden talk about his plan for The Virus. (I don't listen to the radio anywhere else.)
Your vote might matter.
I see a good number of presidential ads on TV even though Biden will win the state by at least twelve points no matter what. I see more ads for local races, though it seems like there are fewer ads overall than in 2016, for national or local races. During the evening news, there are still ads for various remedies for ailments that affect the elderly, for instance. That was not the case four years ago.
Quote from: Todd on October 08, 2020, 04:54:22 PM
As with posting photos of one's dinner, posting that one voted is meaningful - this year more than ever
What a pregnant post!
I guess you've all heard that a right wing terrorist conspiracy to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer, Governor of Michigan, and to take over the state capitol and kill police was foiled. These specimens somehow got it in their heads that Michigan needed liberating. Can't imagine where they got that idea.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a president who didn't routinely incite violence against U.S. citizens?
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 08, 2020, 06:28:14 PM
I guess you've all heard that a right wing terrorist conspiracy to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer, Governor of Michigan, and to take over the state capitol and kill police was foiled. These specimens somehow got it in their heads that Michigan needed liberating. Can't imagine where they got that idea.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a president who didn't routinely incite violence against U.S. citizens?
Another incident which Trump will be medically incapable of denouncing.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 08, 2020, 06:35:52 PM
Another incident which Trump will be medically incapable of denouncing.
He tweeted out that his administration prosecutes violence from both sides but that was part of a tweet-trio that was mostly devoted to complaining Whitmer hated him and should have thanked him, and needed to open up Michigan.
Now Trump is demanding that Bill Barr arrest Biden.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/07/trump-demands-barr-arrest-foes-427389
"DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, THE BIGGEST OF ALL POLITICAL SCANDALS (IN HISTORY)!!! BIDEN, OBAMA AND CROOKED HILLARY LED THIS TREASONOUS PLOT!!! BIDEN SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO RUN - GOT CAUGHT!!!" Trump tweeted.
And the GOP stands by and does nothing while this madman calls for the arrest of the opposition.
Quote from: Daverz on October 08, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
Now Trump is demanding that Bill Barr arrest Biden.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/07/trump-demands-barr-arrest-foes-427389
"DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, THE BIGGEST OF ALL POLITICAL SCANDALS (IN HISTORY)!!! BIDEN, OBAMA AND CROOKED HILLARY LED THIS TREASONOUS PLOT!!! BIDEN SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO RUN - GOT CAUGHT!!!" Trump tweeted.
And the GOP stands by and does nothing while this madman calls for the arrest of the opposition.
Of course not: Huggy Bear chuckles, and Mini Bear thinks it's GREAT!!!
Quote from: geralmar on October 08, 2020, 07:58:16 PM
Outside Detroit, Ann Arbor (only 15 miles west of Belleville), and Lansing (the State capital) Michigan is-- politically and socially-- Alabama.
Then how come Whitmer got elected by an almost ten-poin margin?
Quote from: geralmar on October 08, 2020, 07:58:16 PM
Outside Detroit, Ann Arbor (only 15 miles west of Belleville), and Lansing (the State capital) Michigan is-- politically and socially-- Alabama. That the State has white "militias" is no surprise. There were federal law enforcement raids in Michigan after the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.
I wouldn't say Michigan is Alabama. It's the Midwest, and a substantial portion of the Midwest is always longing for the time when the Midwest was parochially white and everybody came from superwhite northwestern Europe. Really, this is what MAGA is about, so it's everywhere in the US.
Underneath its liberal college town veneer Ann Arbor is a little bit like that, too (I lived there in the nineties). There was this unmistakable pleasure of watching Detroit go to pieces, because it got too big and too black.
I'm a little disappointed in these crazy guys that they wanted to take Whittmer across the lake to Wisconsin. What is wrong with the Upper Peninsula, the ground zero of rural MI guys?
The language coming from these guys is interesting though. Whittmer is a "bitch". The perenennial talk of men disappointed in women, relationships and sex. And it's all women's fault. Angry at the manufactoring industry moving on without them, and too lazy and too male vain to adapt. This guy sounds like he's ready to take out (with a couple of fire crackers) the entire civilization and start all over with just a bunch of guys in the woods. (Clearly had not paid attention during biology classes.)
Quote from: Herman on October 08, 2020, 10:56:09 PM
Whittmer
Quote
Whittmer
I wonder if writing incorrectly the name of a woman is evidence for mysoginism.
Quote from: Florestan on October 08, 2020, 10:15:42 PM
Then how come Whitmer got elected by an almost ten-poin margin?
Because those cities present a population majority, troll.
Hoe easily the accusation of trolling is flung around here.... ::)
Quote from: Herman on October 08, 2020, 11:07:33 PM
Because those cities present a population majority
Then the concern of the Michigan rural people that the urbanites have the upper hand in politics is not entirely unfounded.
Quote from: ritter on October 08, 2020, 11:35:29 PM
Hoe easily the accusation of trolling is flung around here.... ::)
Troll has become the equivalent of socialist or fascist: an empty word whose only meaning is that the accuser disagrees with the accused but is too intellectualy lazy to engage in a rational and civil debate.
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 12:03:21 AM
Then the concern of the Michigan rural people that the urbanites have the upper hand in politics is not entirely unfounded.
Really.
So in that case you amass a large amount of firearms and explosives and plot to storm government buildings and kill a female governor?
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 12:13:22 AM
Troll has become the equivalent of socialist or fascist: an empty word whose only meaning is that the accuser disagrees with the accused but is too intellectualy lazy to engage in a rational and civil debate.
Let's see, your post was I was a misogynist because I spelled Whitmer with two Ts?
That is what you call rational debate? I think it's trolling.
Quote from: Herman on October 09, 2020, 12:46:30 AM
So in that case you amass a large amount of firearms and explosives and plot to storm government buildings and kill a female governor?
Are a few deluded nutjobs representative of the whole rural population in Michigan?
Quote from: Herman on October 09, 2020, 12:48:17 AM
Let's see, your post was I was a misogynist because I spelled Whitmer with two Ts?
That is what you call rational debate? I think it's trolling.
Nah, it was just retaliation for your accusing me of supporting violence against Whitmer and generally being a mysoginist simply because I commented negatively on her countenance. ;D
"retaliation" makes you a troll
Quote from: Herman on October 09, 2020, 01:57:52 AM
"retaliation" makes you a troll
Whatever makes you happy.
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 12:03:21 AM
Then the concern of the Michigan rural people that the urbanites have the upper hand in politics is not entirely unfounded.
If they have more people, why shouldn't urban areas have the "upper hand" in politics? Anyway, in the US, because of the Senate and the way House districts are structured, it's the other way around: people in rural areas have more representation.
Quote from: Daverz on October 09, 2020, 02:13:37 AM
If they have more people, why shouldn't urban areas have the "upper hand" in politics?
In other words, (numerical) might is (political) right. Isn't this majoritarianism what the Founding Fathers vehemently denounced and expressly sought to avoid?
Quote
Anyway, in the US, because of the Senate and the way House districts are structured, it's the other way around: people in rural areas have more representation.
At what level? State or federal?
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 02:45:09 AM
In other words, (numerical) might is (political) right.
The doctrine is "one man, one vote", and includes women as well, of course.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man,_one_vote
Quote
Isn't this majoritarianism what the Founding Fathers vehemently denounced and expressly sought to avoid?
The Founding Fathers didn't have the Equal Protection Clause and lived during an era when only white, property-owning men could vote.
EDIT: I think the idea that the Founding Fathers were anti-majoritarian is a bit of revisionism. A good article giving some context: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/27/opinion/aoc-crenshaw-republicans-democracy.html
"In more modern terms, the founders feared "direct democracy" and accounted for its dangers with a system of "representative democracy." Yes, this "republic" had counter-majoritarian aspects, like equal representation of states in the Senate, the presidential veto and the Supreme Court. But it was not designed for minority rule.
Virtually everything was geared toward producing representative majorities that could govern on behalf of the country — to diminish "faction" in favor of consensus. And in the case of the Electoral College, the point wasn't to stymie majorities but to provide a way to find a competent and popular chief executive in a large nation of parochial states."
Quote
At what level? State or federal?
The structural inequalities would also repeat themselves in state legislatures, I believe.
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 02:45:09 AMIn other words, (numerical) might is (political) right. Isn't this majoritarianism what the Founding Fathers vehemently denounced and expressly sought to avoid?
Contrary to what posters here have offered in response, yes, majoritarian power was an explicit concern of many of the Founders. This is covered both in Madison's Constitutional Convention notes and the Federalist Papers, as well as other contemporaneous works.
This election is over. Biden is the next president.
Trump needs a huge miracle or extreme election fraud to be re-elected. He has completely ruined his chances. The handling of Covid-19 and economy has been abysmal. He has lost all the political instincts he had 2016, because he has been surrounded by the oligarcs for years now. He is no longer an outsider. He is now an insider, part of the swamp unable to improve people's lives. His behavior is total madness now that he knows he will lose. Only his hardcore base, about 1/3 of the country, is with him anymore and that's just not enough. Expect landslide victory for Biden.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2020, 05:54:57 AM
This election is over. Biden is the next president.
Trump needs a huge miracle or extreme election fraud to be re-elected. He has completely ruined his chances. The handling of Covid-19 and economy has been abysmal. He has lost all the political instincts he had 2016, because he has been surrounded by the oligarcs for years now. He is no longer an outsider. He is now an insider, part of the swamp unable to improve people's lives. His behavior is total madness now that he knows he will lose. Only his hardcore base, about 1/3 of the country, is with him anymore and that's just not enough. Expect landslide victory for Biden.
It ain't over til its over.
It's not over until the votes are counted.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2020, 05:54:57 AM
This election is over. Biden is the next president.
Now now. Let's just wait and see.
Also, for someone who had set for himself the task of influencing American to do the right thing: encouraging triumphant complacency is not what you want right now.
People need to get out and vote.
Quote from: Dowder on October 09, 2020, 03:20:44 AM
Got my mail in ballot yesterday. I would fill it out and send it in but the Dem power grab makes me too worried. Don't think my Trump vote will be counted meanwhile they'll be too happy to let every lib or undocumented person vote blue and steal this election from actual Americans.
The best thing to do is to fill out your ballot, eat it, and go to the box and do your business over the slot.
That way no one will become between you and your vote.
Love the suggestion that people who vote blue are not "actual Americans".
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 01:01:24 AM
Nah, it was just retaliation for your accusing me of supporting violence against Whitmer and generally being a mysoginist simply because I commented negatively on her countenance. ;D
But if you say something negative about a woman I support, or the type of women I support, that means you are a misogynist (hate all women).
And that means that if you are have a related point, then the universe will do what it needs to do to invalidate it based on that absolute fact alone.
Quote from: Dowder on October 09, 2020, 03:31:20 AM
Lies, lies, lies.
They are anarchists. Look through the thread here:
https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314267058339819520?s=21 (https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314267058339819520?s=21)
I also have heard about this. Not really interested in deeply looking into this, but if this is true I wouldn't be surprised.
Quote from: Dowder on October 09, 2020, 03:20:44 AM
Got my mail in ballot yesterday. I would fill it out and send it in but the Dem power grab makes me too worried. Don't think my Trump vote will be counted meanwhile they'll be too happy to let every lib or undocumented person vote blue and steal this election from actual Americans.
Delusional. No wonder you lap up fake news and conspiracy theories.
"Trump was never a brilliant businessman—he was a sociopath who used bullying, bankruptcy, and branding to perpetuate a false image of success. As an entrepreneur, and as president, he now stands exposed as a narcissistic fraud.
After enduring four years of Trump, too many Americans see this too clearly. He has done that to himself, and it is lethal. Character is, after all, fate."
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 02:45:09 AM
In other words, (numerical) might is (political) right. Isn't this majoritarianism what the Founding Fathers vehemently denounced and expressly sought to avoid?
At what level? State or federal?
As for representation, the ratio of the number of electoral college vote to 1 popular vote terribly varies across the state. The largest ratio is more than 4 times of the lowest ratio. As for influence, only voters in a few competitive states matter in the election.
The founding fathers, just as elite in other nations, had no interest in popular vote/election. The electoral college is a compromise among conflictual interests on several contentious issues below:
Large states vs. small states
Natl govt vs state govt
Slave states vs. free states
President vs (de facto) prime minister
Quote from: Dowder on October 09, 2020, 03:31:20 AM
Lies, lies, lies.
They are anarchists. Look through the thread here:
https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314267058339819520?s=21 (https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314267058339819520?s=21)
According to the FBI, they are white supremacists, that is, one of Trump's major constituencies. Out of a concern for basic internet hygiene, I'm not clicking on any link you post. Although I would have thought this impossible, after reading your posts I'm concerned they are a pathway for spirochetes.
Sad but expected gambit being played by the Orange Pustule:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-09/trump-s-poll-watcher-push-could-be-a-recipe-for-voter-intimidation
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2020, 05:54:57 AMExpect landslide victory for Biden.
Expect a Dem sweep, and possibly an electoral landslide for Super-Creepy 46. He will not win a popular vote landslide (ie, 55%+ of the popular vote).
Quote from: Herman on October 09, 2020, 06:36:39 AM
Now now. Let's just wait and see.
Also, for someone who had set for himself the task of influencing American to do the right thing: encouraging triumphant complacency is not what you want right now.
People need to get out and vote.
This is the latest perfect example of complete detachment from reality.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 09, 2020, 07:14:26 AM
Out of a concern for basic internet hygiene, I'm not clicking on any link you post.
Even a Twitter link?
Quote from: greg on October 09, 2020, 07:21:02 AM
Even a Twitter link?
I was just wowed by "internet hygiene". The potent things one reads on this forum.
Ok, so this ringleader guy Brandon Caserta might have a good taste in music, though.
In the background I see the logo for the band Periphery... although they are big in metal, they aren't exactly mainstream.
This looks to be the same thing but with a different color:
(https://d3eum8lucccgeh.cloudfront.net/designs/120491/PERIPH_FLAG-WALLFLAG.jpg)
Actually, it's kind of funny. When Islamic extremists commit terrorist acts, leftists go out of their way to paint them as merely mentally deranged people with no real connection to the religion in whose name they kill and to point out that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. When right-wing extremists commit, or conspire to commit, terrorist acts, the same leftists go out of their way to point out how it's exactly their ideology which prompted them to kill and never even passingly remark that the vast majority of right-wing people are peaceful.
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 08:18:30 AM
Actually, it's kind of funny. When Islamic extremists commit terrorist acts, leftists go out of their way to paint them as merely mentally deranged people with no real connection to the religion in whose name they kill and to point out that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. When right-wing extremists commit, or conspire to commit, terrorist acts, the same leftists go out of their way to point out how it's exactly their ideology which prompted them to kill and never even passingly remark that the vast majority of right-wing people are peaceful.
Tribalism is what I call it.
Quote from: greg on October 09, 2020, 08:31:21 AM
Tribalism is what I call it.
There isn't anything that's true that isn't believed by a tribe. You can understand the power of tribes independently of how you evaluate a particular claim. I'm sure you do that all the time, so it won't do harm to put your practice into your ideas.
George Bush thought most Muslims were peaceful and said so at a time when many American were ready to blame them en masse for what extremists did on 9/11.
People of sound mind across the political spectrum understand how religions have peaceful and violent tendencies, and maybe a little history of how religions have evolved over time.
Perhaps we should view tribal influence as something which is not absolute, and that all kinds of virtual tribalism exist side by side in tiny little non-GMG minds.
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 08:18:30 AM
Actually, it's kind of funny. When Islamic extremists commit terrorist acts, leftists go out of their way to paint them as merely mentally deranged people with no real connection to the religion in whose name they kill and to point out that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. When right-wing extremists commit, or conspire to commit, terrorist acts, the same leftists go out of their way to point out how it's exactly their ideology which prompted them to kill and never even passingly remark that the vast majority of right-wing people are peaceful.
Of course. It's because leftists lack self-awareness.
The wannabe terrorists who planned to kidnap Ms Whitmer now face federal charges, will be convicted or cut a plea deal, and then will serve very lengthy prison terms. As they should. (Terrorism is bad, for people who need to be reminded of that.)
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 08:18:30 AM
Actually, it's kind of funny. When Islamic extremists commit terrorist acts, leftists go out of their way to paint them as merely mentally deranged people with no real connection to the religion in whose name they kill and to point out that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. When right-wing extremists commit, or conspire to commit, terrorist acts, the same leftists go out of their way to point out how it's exactly their ideology which prompted them to kill and never even passingly remark that the vast majority of right-wing people are peaceful.
Cherry-pick a lot?
If your ideology prompts you to commit acts of terrorism, it's different from ideologies across the spectrum that view terrorism as evil, criminal and punishable. Of course terrorist have an ideology designed to justify their violence. Why would anyone wish to deny what's obvious? Timothy McVeigh was a Michigander who belonged to a militia. The FBI director doesn't say the greatest terror threats come from the extremists on the right because he's a liberal, he says it because he's the FBI director and his bureau has solid information about where the greatest threats are developing, the kind of information that led to the prevention of a plot that would almost certainly killed police officers and others if it had not been stopped.
Quote from: Herman on October 09, 2020, 09:42:09 AM
Cherry-pick a lot?
Either you don't understand concepts or choose to ignore them, I'm not sure which one is true.
Seeing it as cherry-picking is being over focused on the details, thinking too literally, while the point flies over your head.
Quote from: Herman on October 09, 2020, 09:42:09 AM
Cherry-pick a lot?
As bothsiderism goes, that was remarkably jejune on his part.
Quote from: greg on October 09, 2020, 10:14:04 AM
Either you don't understand concepts or choose to ignore them, I'm not sure which one is true.
Seeing it as cherry-picking is being over focused on the details, thinking too literally, while the point flies over your head.
Priceless, here's just about the dumbest person on GMG questioning my ability to "understand concepts".
I seem to recall your asking me not to respond to your stuff.
Here's a concept for you. Why don't you do the same?
Judge, and be prepared to be judged. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
For those interested, a Twitter thread discussing how dangerous the Michigan conspiracy was
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1314237833276612609.html
Quote from: Herman on October 09, 2020, 10:31:34 AM
Priceless, here's just about the dumbest person on GMG questioning my ability to "understand concepts".
I seem to recall your asking me not to respond to your stuff.
Here's a concept for you. Why don't you do the same?
More name-calling. I guess calling people dumb means you're right. Isaac Newton was dumb. Haha, that means I'm smarter than him.
If you understood the concept, you'd have replied about the concept, not about the "cherry picking."
Quote from: JBS on October 09, 2020, 10:57:38 AM
For those interested, a Twitter thread discussing how dangerous the Michigan conspiracy was
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1314237833276612609.html
That the wannabe terrorists planned a trial for treason should indicate that all involved are on the slow side. Holding meetings in the basement where one of the accused lived has a very "get out the gimp" vibe.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 09, 2020, 10:23:28 AM
As bothsiderism goes, that was remarkably jejune on his part.
Florestan is "bothsiderism?"
I'm nosides, if that isn't clear... both sides may have some truth in them, but I'm not a part of any side. I think the "bothsides" thing was directed to me before, that's why I'm mentioning it...
Quote from: Todd on October 09, 2020, 11:06:22 AM
That the wannabe terrorists planned a trial for treason should indicate that all involved are on the slow side. Holding meetings in the basement where one of the accused lived has a very "get out the gimp" vibe.
A mere look at them is enough: they exude intelligence.
(https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox2detroit.com/www.fox2detroit.com/content/uploads/2020/10/764/432/10-of-13-charged-in-kidnapping-plot.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
A mere look at them is enough: they exude intelligence.
(https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox2detroit.com/www.fox2detroit.com/content/uploads/2020/10/764/432/10-of-13-charged-in-kidnapping-plot.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
A fearsome lot.
Quote from: greg on October 09, 2020, 11:10:16 AM
Florestan is "bothsiderism?"
Earlier I was a troll. Niow I'm a "bothsiderist" (whatever that means). Who knows what I'll be tomorrow?
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 11:33:06 AM
Earlier I was a troll. Niow I'm a "bothsiderist" (whatever that means). Who knows what I'll be tomorrow?
Oh, well you can count on being a misogynist/racist/homophobe if you defend anything to do with anything right-leaning, or probably even center-leaning. At least that is consistent.
Herman could have responded with a "ok, yeah, there's hypocrisy on the left, but there is also some on the right...," which is true- the idea being the lack of consistent logic in the ideologies giving rise to double standards.
I wonder what is the reason for using the term "bothsider?" Is it really impossible to not be part of a side?
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
A mere look at them is enough: they exude intelligence.
Exude?? You must mean exclude.
Quote from: greg on October 09, 2020, 11:10:16 AM
Florestan is "bothsiderism?"
I'm nosides, if that isn't clear... both sides may have some truth in them, but I'm not a part of any side. I think the "bothsides" thing was directed to me before, that's why I'm mentioning it...
What's clear is, that if a heel of yellow American cheese could post, you would vie with it for obtuseness
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 09, 2020, 11:57:48 AM
What's clear is, that if a heel of yellow American cheese could post, you would vie with it for obtuseness
Ad hominem ad infinitum
If I were obtuse, I wouldn't have been able to make it through school and into a career in IT/computer programming. And it clearly takes some level of not-dumbness to get there, just considering alone, from observation, the level of my coworkers' intelligence in IT is much higher than the level of my coworkers' intelligence in retail.
If you don't like what I'm saying, understandable, but that's different from being wrong or dumb.
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 11:33:06 AM
Earlier I was a troll. Niow I'm a "bothsiderist" (whatever that means). Who knows what I'll be tomorrow?
Probably a Fox news viewer.
So terribly, terribly unfair
And while that might seem insane to those who are outside this grievance bubble, it is exactly what the dittoheads want to hear. (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-closing-argument-the-unfairness-never-ends/)
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
A mere look at them is enough: they exude intelligence.
(https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox2detroit.com/www.fox2detroit.com/content/uploads/2020/10/764/432/10-of-13-charged-in-kidnapping-plot.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Does any rational adult mistake Huggy Bear's intellectually impressive condescension, for an actual denunciation of a Trump-inspired assassination attempt?
Huggy Bear's moral courage is a true inspiration.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 08, 2020, 01:05:47 PM
The New England Journal of Medicine endorses Biden. This is the first time in their history they have made a political endorsement.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2029812 (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2029812)
It will be entertaining reading the Trumpsters reaction to this (Don't disappoint us.).
Wow! :o
PD
What's amusing to me is the way left-wing and right-wing treat Islam. The phrase "Islam is right about women" says it all.
Originally it was directed towards the left-wing, but it could easily be directed toward the right-wing as well. For anyone that can't play out the scenario...
Left-wing person: "Uhh... no, it isn't..."
Response: "So you're criticizing Islam? Islamophobe!"
Right-wing person: "Hell yeah!"
Response: "So Islam is awesome, then?"
The world is too complex for pre-packaged ideologies. Either that, or the ideologies themselves need to "git gud" (meaning more nuanced).
Trump has a campaign event in Florida on Monday. Scramble the interceptors.
I've never been to Florida. Is it nice? I can't say I care much for the idea of the state, though when a gator swallows a small dog I have to admit it must have a rough charm.
Quote from: drogulus on October 09, 2020, 03:15:52 PM
I've never been to Florida. Is it nice? I can't say I care much for the idea of the state, though when a gator swallows a small dog I have to admit it must have a rough charm.
Yeah, though you'll have to take a shower after 5 seconds of being outside if you visit between June and August. That is, when it isn't raining (which is like every day during those months).
The stories involving gators are always funny, like the one where some guy got mad at a gator and raped it to show it who's boss. You shouldn't have to worry about them, though, if you are far from the swamps. More often it is just lost bears running around randomly.
Quote from: greg on October 09, 2020, 02:42:16 PM
What's amusing to me is the way left-wing and right-wing treat Islam. The phrase "Islam is right about women" says it all.
Much of what is supposed to be what Islam says about women came from Arab tribal tradition. Wahabism is being spread outside the ME largely with Saudi money. It's not always well received by locals.
Controlling the behavior of women is a common religious function or goal. Eve, you were created for Adam so STFU.
Quote from: greg on October 09, 2020, 03:24:14 PM
Yeah, though you'll have to take a shower after 5 seconds of being outside if you visit between June and August. That is, when it isn't raining (which is like every day during those months).
The stories involving gators are always funny, like the one where some guy got mad at a gator and raped it to show it who's boss. You shouldn't have to worry about them, though, if you are far from the swamps. More often it is just lost bears running around randomly.
That's a funny story. Meninists are awesome.
Quote from: Dowder on October 09, 2020, 03:27:37 PM
Ringleader of Whitmer kidnapping plot called Trump "a tyrant."
https://nypost.com/2020/10/09/man-accused-of-whitmer-kidnap-plot-ripped-trump-as-tyrant/
Oh, he's Antifa. Makes sense.
Quote from: Dowder on October 09, 2020, 03:46:01 PM
That can only be an idea.
Right wing terrorists fascists nazi libertarian anarchists Trumpist white nationalist supremacists boogaloo bois are the reality, clearly. Just ask the Deep State—I mean FBI.
That seems to be the case. There's no indication that antifa inspired groups want to murder or kidnap people. The FBI is aware of distinctions like that.
I like my anarchists to be on the tame side like the late anthropologist David Graeber, who had a role in the Occupy Wall St. movement.
Most Trumpists are not violent. Not all violent groups are pro Trump.
I recently learned about a Boogaloo effort to make common cause with BLM protesters on the assumption that they would be anti-government and want to fuck up the police. How disappointed they must have been. Low information anarchists!
How amusing, when Mini Bear, who is incapable of recognizing lies if they emerge from the mouth of a Trump, calls anyone a "liar." How generous of him to play the fool for our benefit.
For the most part, I've avoided politics here at gmg. Music resides at the center of my being, and as far as I'm concerned what is generally referred to as Western " classical music " comprises a great deal more than mere entertainment, and in fact comprises one of the boundaries of human potential. This has been the defining perspective in my own life for over fifty years, and l believe in its efficacy completely. And so while l regard myself as politically conservative, for the most part that viewpoint has not played a large role in my behavior or decision making.
But now we in the USA approach one of the most important general elections in our country's short history. Since 2017 we have endured a " president " who has demonstrated the most venal, juvenile and narcissistic traits the office has ever known. His admiration for tyrants, his willingness to damage the nation to ingratiate himself to others, his disdain for military veterans, or indeed anyone who has lived a life of service to a greater cause... it all paint's a stark, depressing picture of an individual who will destroy anything if he believes he can profit by the act.
Joe Biden is far from an ideal candidate, but he is the only option if our form of democracy is to have a fair chance to continue in the United States.
Donald Trump is not a man. A true American man would never denigrate women, would not lie or dissemble in order to protect himself, and would not endanger others in the service of his ego.
And so this political conservative, who is traditionally ambivalent, not trusting completely in any political party, recommends to all patriotic conservatives the Lincoln Project for your consideration:
https://lincolnproject.us
The GOP, whom l identified with for decades, have mostly become nothing more than whores for Trump, traitors to their so-called principles.
Defeat Trump.
Preserve the great American experiment.
Show the world that American citizens retain the power vested to us over two hundred years ago.
Imploring,
LKB
Well, for starters, Biden, the way he is now, could have been a regular 1980s Republican, before Gingrich sent the GOP down the toilet.
Quote from: LKB on October 09, 2020, 10:07:51 PM
For the most part, I've avoided politics here at gmg. Music resides at the center of my being, and as far as I'm concerned what is generally referred to as Western " classical music " comprises a great deal more than mere entertainment, and in fact comprises one of the boundaries of human potential. This has been the defining perspective in my own life for over fifty years, and l believe in its efficacy completely. And so while l regard myself as politically conservative, for the most part that viewpoint has not played a large role in my behavior or decision making.
But now we in the USA approach one of the most important general elections in our country's short history. Since 2017 we have endured a " president " who has demonstrated the most venal, juvenile and narcissistic traits the office has ever known. His admiration for tyrants, his willingness to damage the nation to ingratiate himself to others, his disdain for military veterans, or indeed anyone who has lived a life of service to a greater cause... it all paint's a stark, depressing picture of an individual who will destroy anything if he believes he can profit by the act.
Joe Biden is far from an ideal candidate, but he is the only option if our form of democracy is to have a fair chance to continue in the United States.
Donald Trump is not a man. A true American man would never denigrate women, would not lie or dissemble in order to protect himself, and would not endanger others in the service of his ego.
And so this political conservative, who is traditionally ambivalent, not trusting completely in any political party, recommends to all patriotic conservatives the Lincoln Project for your consideration:
https://lincolnproject.us
The GOP, whom l identified with for decades, have mostly become nothing more than whores for Trump, traitors to their so-called principles.
Defeat Trump.
Preserve the great American experiment.
Show the world that American citizens retain the power vested to us over two hundred years ago.
Imploring,
LKB
Thank you.
--Bruce
Quote from: Dowder on October 10, 2020, 12:05:27 AM
The moral outrage gets old but do tell us how electing a coercive big government loving liberal Democratic will make you and your conservative principles rest well. ::)
Someone fetch me a conservative principle. How does their coercive big government love perform better? All it does is pile up the wreckage for the other side to clean up.
Liberals have principles which they have been applying with remarkable laziness and timidity. Their defeatism stinks.
Why Liberals Pretend They Have No Power (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/why-liberals-feign-powerlessness/616644/)
American liberalism has always had a technocratic streak, but the disappointments experienced by liberals since the end of the 1960s enabled a new generation of more conservative Democrats to restructure the liberal coalition and redefine both its style and its political priorities. In the past few decades, the party has avoided embracing a clearly defined progressive program or engaging in the politics of confrontation. Whereas the consensus put in place by Franklin D. Roosevelt was achieved through open conflict with powerful forces in American society, the lodestars of the new liberalism became compromise and conciliation with the right. While FDR forged a lasting political settlement around welfarism and an activist state against the wishes of much of America's corporate establishment, the Clinton administration would famously denounce the scourge of "Big Government" and declare "the end of welfare as we know it." The Bill Clinton adviser Dick Morris even summed up the administration's strategy in a memo as follows: "Fast-forward the Gingrich agenda."
Accordingly, key parts of the conservative agenda were absorbed into American liberalism, which would now make a virtue out of both bipartisan compromise and ideological triangulation.
This style found its ultimate expression in Barack Obama, who masterfully paired a sonorous rhetoric of optimism with, to paraphrase the political scientist Corey Robin, a "moral minimalism" that rendered Democrats not so much unprepared for a fight with their Republican foes as indisposed to the very idea of one. Beginning with the hopeful cadence of "Yes we can!" and ending, after a slew of congressional defeats, with the election of Donald Trump, the Obama era has served to convince many liberals of the need to compromise even further—anything remotely ambitious being doomed to fail on the altars of conservative partisanship and Republican obstruction. (Rampant opposition to Medicare for All from centrist Democrats despite its considerable popularity has been justified on these grounds for years.)
Quote from: Dowder on October 10, 2020, 12:05:27 AM
The moral outrage gets old but do tell us how electing a coercive big government loving liberal Democratic will make you and your conservative principles rest well. ::)
Conservatives seem to have no trouble supporting the co-ercive big government loving individual now occupying the White House.
Quote from: Todd on October 09, 2020, 12:15:08 PM
Probably a Fox news viewer.
The only US TV channels available to me are CNN and Bloomberg. The former I watch for 5 minutes once in a blue moon; the latter for 2 seconds during channel zapping.
Quote from: Dowder on October 10, 2020, 12:05:27 AM
The moral outrage gets old but do tell us how electing a coercive big government loving liberal Democratic will make you and your conservative principles rest well. ::)
Your intellectual rigor is truly a marvel.
Senator Bernie Sanders:
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 08:44:39 AM
Senator Bernie Sanders:
I doubt Trump got excellent care, though not for any socialist reason. What he got was VIP treatment. VIPs outrank their doctors and often choose compliant ones who will prescribe what they want. The doctors who refused to sign the NDAs were almost certainly those who would have given Trump the best treatment.
Trump doesn't need Dr. Feelgood treatment. He wants it, and has the authority to get what he wants. His physicians appear to be toadying mediocrities because they are.
Quote from: LKB on October 09, 2020, 10:07:51 PM
For the most part, I've avoided politics here at gmg. Music resides at the center of my being,...
I wish Biden restores some kind of sanity to US politics so that it becomes boring and I can return to the life where music resides at the center of my being instead of Trump's ALL CAPS Tweets.
Quote from: LKB on October 09, 2020, 10:07:51 PMThe GOP, whom l identified with for decades, have mostly become nothing more than whores for Trump, traitors to their so-called principles.
I'd say the GOP lost it's so-called principles long long ago with the Southern strategy to sell crony capitalism to regular Americans.
Stumbled across this video, allegedly coming from one of the plainer Texan Covid hospitals the other day.
Warning: awful conditions.
https://twitter.com/Black2thBone/status/1312316588008321025
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 09:05:57 AM
I wish Biden restores some kind of sanity to US politics so that it becomes boring and I can return to the life where music resides at the center of my being instead of Trump's ALL CAPS Tweets.
The one single and only culprit for your having departed from that kind of life is yourself.
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 09:12:04 AM
The one single and only culprit for your having departed from that kind of life is yourself.
Truth.
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 09:12:04 AM
The one single and only culprit for your having departed from that kind of life is yourself.
How are people expected to NOT depart such life when a dictator wannabe reality TV buffoon becomes the president of the World's sole superpower!?!? ???
Trump is speaking to a crowd from the Evita balcony today. His nose is stuffed up. I didn't detect any sniffs or stuff flying out of his nose.
In completely unrelated "no puppet" news Trump says Biden is taking Adderall. He, meaning Biden, should be drug tested.
Full Disclosure: An Interview with Noel Casler (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/board,9/action,post2.html)
Where to begin.....This fellow worked with Trump on the show for 6 years, and like everyone else signed an NDA, has totally violated it while making outrageous claims about Trump's drug use and incontinence due to same, and nobody goes after him. If this guy is lying they can't just let him say these things without some kind of response.
Words of caution from:
Matthew Bohrer, Former Assistant State's Attorney
BIG CAVEAT: I have no evidence of Trump engaging in drug use, and I'm ABSOLUTELY NOT suggesting or stating that he did so. Nothing in this response should be taken to imply or state anything of the sort.
In short, the most likely reason he hasn't sued is some combination of the following two things:
The allegations by Casler have received very little attention in the media or elsewhere, and a lawsuit would massively increase that attention. In other words, the Streisand Effect.
If a lawsuit were filed, the discovery process would necessarily include access to all sorts of materials for Casler
Queeg is a frightening, pitiable caricature of naval leadership whose increasingly dangerous behaviors compel his officers to save their ship by seizing command. Perhaps you've seen the movie, anchored in Humphrey Bogart's indelible rendition of a man cracking up before our eyes, raving on the witness stand about "disloyal" officers until becoming incoherent. But not even Bogart could capture, nor Wouk imagine, the terrifying self-indictment of a president far sicker than Captain Queeg.
Nonetheless, the fictional Queeg serves as prototype for the all-too-real Trump—and the dilemma he presents us. Queeg is incompetent, paranoid, given to bullying, prone to blame-shifting, obsessed with appearances, unable to admit error, and determined at all costs to cover up grievous misjudgments and mistakes. (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-captain-queeg-crackup/)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 10, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Queeg is a frightening, pitiable caricature of naval leadership whose increasingly dangerous behaviors compel his officers to save their ship by seizing command. Perhaps you've seen the movie, anchored in Humphrey Bogart's indelible rendition of a man cracking up before our eyes, raving on the witness stand about "disloyal" officers until becoming incoherent. But not even Bogart could capture, nor Wouk imagine, the terrifying self-indictment of a president far sicker than Captain Queeg.
Nonetheless, the fictional Queeg serves as prototype for the all-too-real Trump—and the dilemma he presents us. Queeg is incompetent, paranoid, given to bullying, prone to blame-shifting, obsessed with appearances, unable to admit error, and determined at all costs to cover up grievous misjudgments and mistakes. (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-captain-queeg-crackup/)
My take on this, as a complete outsider, is that a system which yields Queeg as POTUS is deeply flawed from your pow. Therefore, what you people strongly opposed to Queeg should concentrate on is not Queeg himself, but the system which produces Queeg as POTUS. Good luck with changing it. ;D
The Trumpist Death Cult (https://thebulwark.com/the-trumpist-death-cult/)
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 11:41:04 AM
My take on this, as a complete outsider, is that a system which yields Queeg as POTUS is deeply flawed from your pow. Therefore, what you people strongly opposed to Queeg should concentrate on is not Queeg himself, but the system which produces Queeg as POTUS. Good luck with changing it. ;D
If you have a better system to suggest, you have our ear. The human element has failed us (and would be the flaw of any system) largely but not exclusively, in the form of the Kool-Aid quaffers.
Sadly, even if we succeed in ousting the Giant Dyspeptic Orange Toad, there are milions of dowders in the country, who will remain a source of toxicity. The GOP is now (just heard this in a podcast) The Jerk Party.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 11:03:17 AM
How are people expected to NOT depart such life when a dictator wannabe reality TV buffoon becomes the president of the World's sole superpower!?!? ???
It's simple really, non-Americans just need to remember that they do not matter at all when it comes to the US and US politics. Everything you have read, said, written, and otherwise "done" as it pertains to the US and US politics means nothing. You have wasted your time and your life. That is your fault, and only your fault.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 10, 2020, 11:49:28 AM
If you have a better system to suggest, you have our ear.
Oh, my! Karl, this is my whole point: it's not my business to suggest you any other system than what you have. What you have is what you get. All I can say as a complete outsider is this: As long as a critical mass of US citizens across all states took it for granted, it would be so. The very moment a critical mass of US citizens across all states thought it's a flawed system and expressed their voices through state referenda, change would follow as the night the day. I might be wrong, please correct me.
Quote from: Todd on October 10, 2020, 12:05:20 PM
It's simple really, non-Americans just need to remember that they do not matter at all when it comes to the US and US politics. Everything you have read, said, written, and otherwise "done" as it pertains to the US and US politics means nothing. You have wasted your time and your life. That is your fault, and only your fault.
Yes, yes, yes and yes. Incidentally, yes.
I am way much more more concerned about what I should listen tonight, Boccherini or Mendelssohn, than about who'll be the next POTUS.
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 12:12:52 PM
I am way much more more concerned about what I should listen tonight, Boccherini or Mendelssohn, than about who'll be the next POTUS.
Consider yourself hugged.
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 12:12:52 PM
Yes, yes, yes and yes. Incidentally, yes.
I am way much more more concerned about what I should listen tonight, Boccherini or Mendelssohn, than about who'll be the next POTUS.
Then why have you participated this thread if you think Todd is right?
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 12:18:01 PM
Then why have you participated this thread if you think Todd is right?
?
Quote from: drogulus on October 10, 2020, 11:13:35 AM
Trump is speaking to a crowd from the Evita balcony today. His nose is stuffed up. I didn't detect any sniffs or stuff flying out of his nose.
I matters more what flew out of his mouth (nonsense with or without droplets with coronavirus).
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 12:12:52 PM
Yes, yes, yes and yes. Incidentally, yes.
I am way much more more concerned about what I should listen tonight, Boccherini or Mendelssohn, than about who'll be the next POTUS.
Felix has my vote...
;),
LKB
Quote from: LKB on October 10, 2020, 12:49:18 PM
Felix has my vote...
;),
LKB
I had already decided in his favor but I'm glad you agreed! 8)
No, no! Only a brainwashed ignoramus can choose Felix over Luigi. >:(
...and this is how polarisation starts. ;D
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 10, 2020, 12:25:32 PM
I matters more what flew out of his mouth (nonsense with or without droplets with coronavirus).
I'm not necessarily reassured by getting an explanation for that device Trump wears that bulges out in the back. All orifices are in play in regards to importance depending on your point of view, and distance.
Quote from: drogulus on October 10, 2020, 11:13:35 AM
In completely unrelated "no puppet" news Trump says Biden is taking Adderall. He, meaning Biden, should be drug tested.
Wait, why is that a problem? Trump's entire personality is Adderall.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 12:18:01 PM
Then why have you participated this thread if you think Todd is right?
The purpose of this thread is to derive wisdom from Finland about what's wrong with America. Do your job and don't worry about the "meaning of life".
Quote from: drogulus on October 10, 2020, 01:31:04 PM
The purpose of this thread is to derive wisdom from Finland about what's wrong with America. Do your job and don't worry about the "meaning of life".
Best
drogulus' post in a millenium!
Quote from: greg on October 10, 2020, 01:23:33 PM
Wait, why is that a problem? Trump's entire personality is Adderall.
He's also entirely President, so that could be a big problem.
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 01:33:36 PM
Best drogulus' post in a millenium!
Yes, it's almost intelligible.
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 12:52:59 PM
I had already decided in his favor but I'm glad you agreed! 8)
I must admit a certain amount of bias, having conducted, played and sung Mendelssohn. Boccherini I've only heard, and not much of him at that.
:-\,
LKB
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 12:20:46 PM
?
You agree with Todd that the opinions of non-Americans don't matter yet here you are sharing your Romanian opinions! :-\
Quote from: drogulus on October 10, 2020, 01:31:04 PM
The purpose of this thread is to derive wisdom from Finland about what's wrong with America. Do your job and don't worry about the "meaning of life".
Tell that to Todd. He is the one here not undertanding how non-Americans can have valuable insight.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 02:26:41 PM
Tell that to Todd. He is the one here not undertanding how non-Americans can have valuable insight.
Not non-Americans on this forum.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 02:26:41 PM
Tell that to Todd. He is the one here not undertanding how non-Americans can have valuable insight.
Why should I? He has a problem understanding how valuable your opinions are and I'm fine with that. Also, your opinions occasionally suck, and I'm fine with that, too.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 02:21:59 PM
You agree with Todd that the opinions of non-Americans don't matter yet here you are sharing your Romanian opinions! :-\
Yeah, I do find it odd that the Finn gets more than his fair share of shit while the Prince of Ruritania is mostly tolerated.
One dead, two in custody after gunfire at downtown Denver rallies (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/10/denver-protests-saturday-civic-center-park/)
A vicious left wing thug committed murder at a Denver protest. I know some GMGers already have rationalizations at the ready.
Quote from: Daverz on October 10, 2020, 02:56:25 PM
Yeah, I do find it odd that the Finn gets more than his fair share of shit while the Prince of Ruritania is mostly tolerated.
The Finn has an abundance of sincerity. That can put anyone off their feed.
Two members I tend to ignore are Dowder and Todd.
Dowder because like many Trumpsters he inhabits an alternate fantasy world.
Todd because I have absolutely no idea what he is trying to prove.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 10, 2020, 05:35:15 PM
Two members I tend to ignore are Dowder and Todd.
Dowder because like many Trumpsters he inhabits an alternate fantasy world.
Todd because i have absolutely no idea what he is trying to prove.
Todd seems to hold us all in complete contempt, but is very keen on letting us know what Chopin CD his is listening to now.
Dowder is an interesting study in just how far gone a human being can be.
Quote from: Todd on October 10, 2020, 03:58:05 PM
One dead, two in custody after gunfire at downtown Denver rallies (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/10/denver-protests-saturday-civic-center-park/)
A vicious left wing thug committed murder at a Denver protest. I know some GMGers already have rationalizations at the ready.
The currently posted version of the article say this
QuotePolice initially said two people were taken into custody but later said one of them was not involved in the incident. They tweeted that the suspect was a private security guard with no affiliation with Antifa
Quote from: Daverz on October 10, 2020, 05:40:51 PMTodd seems to hold us all in complete contempt
Not all.
Quote from: JBS on October 10, 2020, 06:16:13 PMThe currently posted version of the article say this
Hopefully he gets fired.
Ain't nobody gonna try to "rationalize" Huggy Bear's own private fake news.
Quote from: Dowder on October 10, 2020, 07:26:31 PM
I'd rather be a member of the Jerk Party than the Clown Party.
same thing
Quote from: Dowder on October 10, 2020, 07:26:31 PM
I'd rather be a member of the Jerk Party than the Clown Party.
Or you can be a member of no party, that's the fun party. 8)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2020, 02:21:59 PM
You agree with Todd that the opinions of non-Americans don't matter yet here you are sharing your Romanian opinions! :-\
The difference is that I never pretended to have any special insight about, and deep knowledge of, US politics and policies and I never told Americans whom they should vote for. Nor do I know exactly what must be done in order to solve US problems.
Ben Shapiro tries to defend Republican/conservative ideology by blaiming Trump for the polls disaster, but Kyle Kulinski says:
Not buying it Ben, go down with the ship! ;D
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2020, 11:55:58 PM
The difference is that I never pretended to have any special insight about, and deep knowledge of, US politics and policies and I never told Americans whom they should vote for. Nor do I know exactly what must be done in order to solve US problems.
Oh? So what the hell are you doing here if you stand for nothing?
Quote from: Herman on October 10, 2020, 08:13:27 PM
same thing
Perfect: he recognizes being a jerk, but not what a bozo he is.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 03:46:33 AMOh? So what the hell are you doing here if you stand for nothing?
Take that, Florestan!
Back to US politics proper:
Biden says 'chicanery' at polls is the only way he could lose U.S. election (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-biden/biden-says-chicanery-at-polls-is-the-only-way-he-could-lose-u-s-election-idUSKBN26V10I)
Super-Creepy 46 had to clarify that he would accept the election result. Cognitive decline in the elderly is funny to witness.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 03:46:33 AM
Oh? So what the hell are you doing here
Just wasting my time.
Quote
if you stand for nothing?
I stand for many things, but that talking politics on an internet forum have any importance in the real world is not one of them.
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 04:50:10 AM
I stand for many things, but that talking politics on an internet forum have any importance in the real world is not one of them.
Verily.
And, the Clown-in-Chief
https://www.youtube.com/v/nd4gvgE7V2o
https://www.youtube.com/v/TqENwyonvBc
Federal judge in Pennsylvania dismisses Trump campaign lawsuit on voting, calling fraud claims 'speculative' (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pennsylvania-trump-lawsuit-voting/2020/10/10/44c16ba6-0b2c-11eb-859b-f9c27abe638d_story.html)
Sci-fi is sometimes called "speculative fiction".
Quote from: arpeggio on October 10, 2020, 05:35:15 PM
Two members I tend to ignore are Dowder and Todd.
Dowder because like many Trumpsters he inhabits an alternate fantasy world.
Todd because I have absolutely no idea what he is trying to prove.
Yes, Dowder is "out there" and a clear example of a TFG. Todd seems a TFG too, but I'm not 100 % convinced of that, only 95 %. The only idea Todd seems to be able to express clearly is his weird belief that non-american can't undertand US politics and have ousider insight about it. He doesn't seem to realize the following aspects:
- This is not an "Americans only" forum
- Of course non-americans can have insight into US politics. I understand English. All it takes is the effort and I have done the effort!
- I don't need to be able to vote in US elections to have insight and opinions and express them online.
- The World is interested of what happens in a superpower like the US.
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 04:50:10 AM
1. Just wasting my time.
2. I stand for many things, but that talking politics on an internet forum have any importance in the real world is not one of them.
1. Ok.
2. Of course you do, but you didn't want to be the target of Todd. You are happy with only me being the target.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 10:33:46 AM
- This is not an "Americans only" forum
Correct.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 10:33:46 AM- Of course non-americans can have insight into US politics.
Sure. Someone like, say, Christine Lagarde can have valuable insight. You are not Christine Lagarde.
Tapper challenges Biden claim on SCOTUS (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/10/11/sotu-biden-claim-on-scotus.cnn)
Even Jake Tapper at Comedy News Network knows that Dems are completely full of shit when they claim that trying to install ACB on SCOTUS is unconstitutional. Even shameless old Cocaine Mitch never blabbered about constitutionality when he gave poor, poor Merrick the shaft.
But what say the con law experts on this forum, is trying to install ACB unconstitutional? Let's see what non-Americans, who I'm told can have insight into US goings-on, have to say on the matter.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 10:38:12 AM
2. Of course you do, but you didn't want to be the target of Todd. You are happy with only me being the target.
I've been Todd's target multiple times, latest instance was just last week (check it if in doubt). I've never taken it seriously, let alone personally. Once again: an internet forum is a very, very, very different thing from real life.
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 10:58:33 AMOnce again: an internet forum is a very, very, very different thing from real life.
You lie.
Quote from: Todd on October 11, 2020, 10:59:02 AM
You lie.
My wife would agree with you, no doubt about it.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 10:33:46 AM
- This is not an "Americans only" forum
- Of course non-americans can have insight into US politics. I understand English. All it takes is the effort and I have done the effort!
- I don't need to be able to vote in US elections to have insight and opinions and express them online.
- The World is interested of what happens in a superpower like the US.
Overall I'd say your contributions are well above the usual GMG standard when you appear to be figuring things out without overt reference to what some individual is saying. It's good to reassemble arguments into your own expressive style because it forces you to understand what arguments are saying with less "bewitchment of language".
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif) At the end of the day we'll reach an inflection point of great uncertainty.
Quote from: drogulus on October 11, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
Overall I'd say your contributions are well above the usual GMG standard when you appear to be figuring things out without overt reference to what some individual is saying. It's good to reassemble arguments into your own expressive style because it forces you to understand what arguments are saying with less "bewitchment of language". (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
At the end of the day we'll reach an inflection point of great uncertainty.
I am not an expert on US politics, but I do understand the basic aspects of it. To me the most surprising thing here is the overall support of corporate Democrats and the lack of support for progressives/lefties. Considering how about 2/3 of Americans support medicare for all, it's absurd how much I have had to defend it while being given Prager-U type of right-wing talking points back! I think members of this forum are generally intellectually curious people having discovered classical music and all (and I feel I am the dumb one for having discovered classical music at age of 26 or so rather than 14 or so). However, when it comes to politics, I feel many haven't really opened their eyes. People don't seem to realize Nancy Pelosi is their enemy unless you are very rich and priviledged. People don't seem to realize the US healthcare system is a scam on top of scam to suck as much of your money as possible while giving you back as little care as possible. People don't seem to realize/believe the corporate media is almost entirely about serving the top 1 % by means such as manufacturing consent, fearmongering, smear campaigns, lies and gaslighting. You may see one good article in NYT showing great journalism, but the next 10 articles are nothing more than corporate propaganda. Just look at how NYT endorsed Biden. All of it just clichés and platitudes meaning nothing. Just words that sound nice. People into classical music, jazz etc. should be smart enough to not fall for that. There are intellectually honest ways to support Biden: Electing him saves American democracy, whatever there was in the first place. Electing him means better judges and justices and so on. It's honest to say Biden is far from perfect, but still much better than Trump. Much much of this kind of endorsing do you see in corporate media? They are not into that. You need to listen to the lefties to hear that.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 12:28:23 PM
I am not an expert on US politics, but I do understand the basic aspects of it. To me the most surprising thing here is the overall support of corporate Democrats and the lack of support for progressives/lefties. Considering how about 2/3 of Americans support medicare for all, it's absurd how much I have had to defend it while being given clear right-wing talking points back! I think members of this forum are generally intellectually curious people having discovered classical music and all (and I feel I am the dumb one for having discovered classical music at age of 26 or so rather than 14 or so). However, when it comes to politics, I feel many haven't really opened their eyes. People don't seem to realize Nancy Pelosi is their enemy unless you are very rich and priviledged. People don't seem to realize the US healthcare system is a scam on top of scam to suck as much of your money as possible while giving you back as little care as possible. People don't seem to realize/believe the corporate media is almost entirely about serving the top 1 % by means such as manufacturing consent, fearmongering, smear campaigns, lies and gaslighting. You may see one good article in NYT showing great journalism, but the next 10 articles are nothing more than corporate propaganda. Just look at how NYT endorsed Biden. All of it just clichés and platitudes meaning nothing. Just words that sound nice. People into classical music, jazz etc. should be smart enough to not fall for that. There are intellectually honest ways to support Biden: Electing him saves American democracy, whatever there was in the first place. Electing him means better judges and justices and so on. It's honest to say Biden is far from perfect, but still much better than Trump. Much much of this kind of endorsing do you see in corporate media? They are not into that. You need to listen to the lefties to hear that.
O ciel, che noia!
The Taliban have endorsed Trump.
Seriously.
Quote from: drogulus on October 11, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Federal judge in Pennsylvania dismisses Trump campaign lawsuit on voting, calling fraud claims 'speculative' (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pennsylvania-trump-lawsuit-voting/2020/10/10/44c16ba6-0b2c-11eb-859b-f9c27abe638d_story.html)
Sci-fi is sometimes called "speculative fiction".
Even I knew that, with my modest IQ.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 10:38:12 AM
1. Ok.
2. Of course you do, but you didn't want to be the target of Todd. You are happy with only me being the target.
Shake it off. The broad consensus is, that Huggy Bear is an arse.
Quote from: Todd on October 11, 2020, 12:49:23 PM
There's a better phrase: word salad.
I stand corrected.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 11, 2020, 12:49:05 PM
The Taliban have endorsed Trump.
Seriously.
I wonder if Trump brags about this. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 10:58:33 AM
I've been Todd's target multiple times, latest instance was just last week (check it if in doubt). I've never taken it seriously, let alone personally. Once again: an internet forum is a very, very, very different thing from real life.
This, too, is true. One can only hope that Huggy Bear has better people skills in real life.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 01:01:14 PM
I wonder if Trump brags about this. ;D
Fine people on both sides.
Quote from: Todd on October 11, 2020, 12:49:23 PM
There's a better phrase: word salad.
If my posts are word salad then your posts make readers starve! ;)
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 01:01:50 PM
Who?
Todd. There was a new member who only briefly participated in this thread who sought to assure us that Todd is "a teddy bear." I'm sure Poju finds him so.
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 01:06:26 PM
I see. Do you have a nickname for me too?
If you need to ask, the answer must be "no."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 11, 2020, 01:07:43 PM
If you need to ask, the answer must be "no."
I asked because "Prince of Ruritania" has been suggested (not by you).
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 11, 2020, 12:49:05 PM
The Taliban have endorsed Trump.
Seriously.
I guess they're back-tracking on this?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/donald-trump-taliban-us-election-afghanistan-b959629.html
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I asked because "Prince of Ruritania" has been suggested (not by you).
Have you recovered from that sharp blow?
Quote from: Todd on October 11, 2020, 01:13:43 PM
Have you recovered from that sharp blow?
I'm doing my best.
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I asked because "Prince of Ruritania" has been suggested (not by you).
I see.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 12:28:23 PM
I am not an expert on US politics, but I do understand the basic aspects of it. To me the most surprising thing here is the overall support of corporate Democrats and the lack of support for progressives/lefties. Considering how about 2/3 of Americans support medicare for all, it's absurd how much I have had to defend it while being given Prager-U type of right-wing talking points back! I think members of this forum are generally intellectually curious people having discovered classical music and all (and I feel I am the dumb one for having discovered classical music at age of 26 or so rather than 14 or so). However, when it comes to politics, I feel many haven't really opened their eyes. People don't seem to realize Nancy Pelosi is their enemy unless you are very rich and priviledged. People don't seem to realize the US healthcare system is a scam on top of scam to suck as much of your money as possible while giving you back as little care as possible. People don't seem to realize/believe the corporate media is almost entirely about serving the top 1 % by means such as manufacturing consent, fearmongering, smear campaigns, lies and gaslighting. You may see one good article in NYT showing great journalism, but the next 10 articles are nothing more than corporate propaganda. Just look at how NYT endorsed Biden. All of it just clichés and platitudes meaning nothing. Just words that sound nice. People into classical music, jazz etc. should be smart enough to not fall for that. There are intellectually honest ways to support Biden: Electing him saves American democracy, whatever there was in the first place. Electing him means better judges and justices and so on. It's honest to say Biden is far from perfect, but still much better than Trump. Much much of this kind of endorsing do you see in corporate media? They are not into that. You need to listen to the lefties to hear that.
Now you've ruined everything.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif) I think you're wrong that you need to listen to lefties to arrive at your view of Biden. What lefties say about Biden is a tweaked version of what's widely understood as common sense.
Quote from: drogulus on October 11, 2020, 02:13:37 PM
I think you're wrong that you need to listen to lefties to arrive at your view of Biden. What lefties say about Biden is a tweaked version of what's widely understood as common sense.
Variety of sources is the best.
One source will give people what they want to hear, the other will give them what they don't want to hear. Usually people will willingly get addicted to one type of source only.
Quote from: greg on October 11, 2020, 02:33:48 PM
Variety of sources is the best.
One source will give people what they want to hear, the other will give them what they don't want to hear. Usually people will willingly get addicted to one type of source only.
The hope of America lies with a 77-yo guy defeating a 74-yo guy.
Risum teneatis, amici?
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 02:38:59 PM
The hope of America the world lies with a 77-yo guy defeating a 74-yo guy.
Fixed that for you. The stakes really are that high. Really. Truly.
Quote from: Florestan on October 11, 2020, 02:38:59 PM
The hope of America lies with a 77-yo guy defeating a 74-yo guy.
Risum teneatis, amici?
How far America has fallen.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 10:33:46 AM
Yes, Dowder is "out there" and a clear example of a TFG.
A what?
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2020, 12:28:23 PM
I am not an expert on US politics, but I do understand the basic aspects of it. To me the most surprising thing here is the overall support of corporate Democrats and the lack of support for progressives/lefties.
I support progressive/lefties, but the time to do that is during the primaries or after the election (trying to push elected leaders to the left, not trying to create cynical disengagement or simply signaling your ideological purity). During the election, the priority is to defeat Republicans. In a first-past-the-post system, third parties are spoilers, and should be treated as such.
I found 42 definitions for "TFG":
TFG Transitional Federal Government
TFG Trading Figure Game (Pokemon)
TFG Tetragon Financial Group (Guernsey, Channel Islands)
TFG Total Fishing Gear (UK)
TFG Triple Fat Goose (Sayreville, NJ)
TFG Task and Finish Group (UK)
TFG Together for God (various organizations)
TFG Tools for Gents (Germany)
TFG Tactical Fighter Group (USAF)
TFG Timber Framers Guild
TFG Task Force Group (various organizations)
TFG Taken for Granted
TFG The Freedonia Group (est. 1985; market research)
TFG The Futures Group
TFG Too Far Gone
TFG Three-F Giken Co., Ltd. (Japan)
TFG The Facility Group (various locations)
TFG The Fitz Group (Addison, TX)
TFG The Forever Glamorous
TFG The Financial Group
TFG The Fall Guy
TFG The Family Groove (online magazine)
TFG Technical Forum Group
TFG Two from Galilee
TFG Teacher Focus Group
TFG Terremark Federal Group (Terremark Worldwide, Inc.)
TFG Trapped Floor Gulley
TFG Théatre Firmin Gémier (French theater)
TFG Talleres Florencio Gomez (Spanish transport system manufacturer)
TFG The Forbidden Gates (video game)
TFG Time for Good (Christian volunteering group; UK)
TFG Technical Focus Group
TFG Technologie–Fonds GmbH (German, now TFG Venture Capital)
TFG Transportation Facility Guide
TFG Terminal Facilities Guide
TFG Tentative Force Guidance
TFG Terrain and Feature Generation
TFG Transfer Flame Generator
TFG Teen Fellowship Group
TFG Total Financial Group (various locations)
TFG Treacalicious Fun Gang (fiction-based organisation from the books published by knn publishing inc.)
TFG TRK (Tyrosine Kinase)-Fused Gene (biology)
I like Transfer Flame Generator.
People don't know how to Google correctly... it's "Too Far Gone," a Kulinski term.
Quote from: Daverz on October 11, 2020, 04:18:42 PM
I support progressive/lefties, but the time to do that is during the primaries or after the election (trying to push elected leaders to the left, not trying to create cynical disengagement or simply signaling your ideological purity). During the election, the priority is to defeat Republicans. In a first-past-the-post system, third parties are spoilers, and should be treated as such.
If ranked choice voting becomes widespread it would make it possible for a third party to gradually grow to where it could replace one of the majors. It would be harder to gerrymander against 2 or 3 opponents. But replacement may not be the best outcome. The best thing would be that an element of unpredictability in election results would cause politicians to seek the approval of voters instead of taking them for granted.
Quote from: drogulus on October 11, 2020, 04:35:57 PM
If ranked choice voting becomes widespread it would make it possible for a third party to gradually grow to where it could replace one of the majors. It would be harder to gerrymander against 2 or 3 opponents. But replacement may not be the best outcome. The best thing would be that an element of unpredictability in election results would cause politicians to seek the approval of voters instead of taking them for granted.
Yes, seems to be working in Maine.
Quote from: Daverz on October 11, 2020, 04:59:13 PM
Yes, seems to be working in Maine.
The Republicrats don't want it. How could it be wrong?
Quote from: drogulus on October 11, 2020, 06:46:56 PM
The Republicrats don't want it. How could it be wrong?
Is there an argument against it? I'd like to know what it is.
Statues toppled, windows smashed, riot declared downtown (https://www.koin.com/news/protests/protesters-try-to-topple-statue-in-downtown-portland/)
Locally, an Abraham Lincoln statue came a-topplin' down last night, along with one of the most loathsome TR. The Oregon Historical Society building was also vandalized, with most of its wall of windows damaged, because, you know, social justice.
Happy Indigenous Peoples Day!
Quote from: milk on October 11, 2020, 11:28:28 PM
Is there an argument against it? I'd like to know what it is.
An objection is that it's complicated and voters might not understand how to use it.
Ranked-choice voting and the quest to save democracy in the US (https://qz.com/1676718/the-pros-and-cons-of-ranked-choice-voting/)
I can hardly believe that Trump wasn't awarded the Nobel in Economics.
Quote from: greg on October 11, 2020, 04:30:05 PM
People don't know how to Google correctly... it's "Too Far Gone," a Kulinski term.
At least someone here has more than a few brain cells... ;)
Quote from: Todd on October 12, 2020, 05:39:14 AM
Statues toppled, windows smashed, riot declared downtown (https://www.koin.com/news/protests/protesters-try-to-topple-statue-in-downtown-portland/)
Locally, an Abraham Lincoln statue came a-topplin' down last night, along with one of the most loathsome TR. The Oregon Historical Society building was also vandalized, with most of its wall of windows damaged, because, you know, social justice.
Happy Indigenous Peoples Day!
But Abe Lincoln owned sla-...
no, he freed sla-... wait, can't say that...
uhhh he was white and one of those old guys from history. And they are bad. And the US is bad. So he's bad. So tear it down!
Quote from: drogulus on October 11, 2020, 02:13:37 PM
Now you've ruined everything. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
I think you're wrong that you need to listen to lefties to arrive at your view of Biden. What lefties say about Biden is a tweaked version of what's widely understood as common sense.
What fabulous things is there to ruin? Well, Disney ruined Star Wars... ...but don't blame me for that. Regular people may have common sense. The corporate media not so much.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej8YEltWAAAzOQ-.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/events/338978307194926
This looked like such a happy, bright, fabulous event! Too bad I missed it.
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 07:57:12 AM
The multi-racial, multi-cultural nation ideologues want isn't working and never will.
It works for me, but stupid people just ruin everything.
Quote from: Daverz on October 11, 2020, 04:18:42 PM
I support progressive/lefties, but the time to do that is during the primaries or after the election (trying to push elected leaders to the left, not trying to create cynical disengagement or simply signaling your ideological purity). During the election, the priority is to defeat Republicans. In a first-past-the-post system, third parties are spoilers, and should be treated as such.
You're totally right. Of course defeating Trump is most important right now, but that doesn't mean you can't be honest about the reasons to vote for Biden. In 2016 Kyle Kulinski voted for Jill Stein in New York because Hillary's victory the was quaranteed. In a swing State Kyle Kulinski would have voted for Hillary, of course. If the left never opens mouth the corporates keep being horrible knowing you are gonno vote for them anyway...
Quote from: greg on October 12, 2020, 07:48:46 AM
But Abe Lincoln owned sla-...
no, he freed sla-... wait, can't say that...
uhhh he was white and one of those old guys from history. And they are bad. And the US is bad. So he's bad. So tear it down!
It's just Little Beirut. 2020 has seen more hyperactive lefty morons throwing temper tantrums than normal, breaking lots of other people's stuff, and occasionally committing serious crimes like arson and murder, because so many of the losers had shit service jobs before Covid hit. In a typical year, a rage against Columbus march is expected. This year the petite thugs kicked things up a notch.
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 08:31:32 AM
Bringing immigrants in with a lower IQ doesn't help.
Maybe not, but the foreign people I've been around are definitely not low IQ lol, so this doesn't relate to my own personal experience.
The big problem IMO is the extreme lengths white people go on left or the right with their ideology, either becoming actual racists or becoming hypersensitive SJWs that call you racist if you sneeze.
Quote from: Todd on October 12, 2020, 08:26:19 AM
occasionally committing serious crimes like arson and murder, because so many of the losers had shit service jobs before Covid hit.
Well, service jobs will make you want to commit serious crimes, so why not virtue signal while doing them at the same time? lol
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 08:31:32 AM
Bringing immigrants in with a lower IQ doesn't help.
Considering how some Americans need to ask if Canada is a country it's safe to say the immigrants coming to the US won't make the US less intelligent.
If Trump is so tough on terrorism, why did the Taliban just endorse him?
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 08:31:32 AM
Bringing immigrants in with a lower IQ doesn't help.
In the good old days Jews, Italians, Irish and Poles weren't white in the ideological sense of the term. They didn't have Protestant IQs, whatever the numbers would have said.
Quote from: greg on October 12, 2020, 08:46:06 AM
The big problem IMO is the extreme lengths white people go on left or the right with their ideology, either becoming actual racists or becoming hypersensitive SJWs that call you racist if you sneeze.
Does this happen to you in real life? I ask because media of all stripes focus on things I don't personally experience, like being questioned or attacked for where I stand on a racist/SJW scale.
Quote from: drogulus on October 12, 2020, 08:59:13 AM
In the good old days Jews, Italians, Irish and Poles weren't white in the ideological sense of the term. They didn't have Protestant IQs, whatever the numbers would have said.
It would be a challenge to find an immigrant with an IQ which shows to Mini Bear's advantage.
Quote from: drogulus on October 12, 2020, 09:05:24 AM
Does this happen to you in real life? I ask because media of all stripes focus on things I don't personally experience, like being questioned or attacked for where I stand on a racist/SJW scale.
Airing of fictional grievances ("they call you a racist when you sneeze") is a major industry with the right.
Quote from: drogulus on October 12, 2020, 09:05:24 AM
Does this happen to you in real life? I ask because media of all stripes focus on things I don't personally experience, like being questioned or attacked for where I stand on a racist/SJW scale.
IRL nowadays I work at home and don't talk to people, it's awesome :D
It's mostly on the internet, though obviously this stuff leaks over to real life, or is also part of real life, especially known to be a thing on college campuses.
I think these problems arise most strongly from highly white communities. Portland, for example, is the whitest city in the US.
I wouldn't be surprised if I grew up in a more diverse area than everyone who posts here. Which is probably one of the biggest factors in having a neutral charge. To a positive charge, a neutral charge will look like a negative charge. And vice versa.
People might not have had enough relations with minorities (especially black people) so they come to a crossroads about what to think about them. Look at the negative or the positive only? Which charge should I have? That's probably what a lot of white people are struggling with (or maybe waaay too confident about lol).
Quote from: Herman on October 12, 2020, 09:31:22 AM
Airing of fictional grievances ("they call you a racist when you sneeze") is a major industry with the right.
You really going to take that literally?
Quote from: greg on October 12, 2020, 09:33:11 AM
IRL nowadays I work at home and don't talk to people, it's awesome :D
It's mostly on the internet, though obviously this stuff leaks over to real life, or is also part of real life, especially known to be a thing on college campuses.
I think these problems arise most strongly from highly white communities. Portland, for example, is the whitest city in the US.
I wouldn't be surprised if I grew up in a more diverse area than everyone who posts here. Which is probably one of the biggest factors in having a neutral charge. To a positive charge, a neutral charge will look like a negative charge. And vice versa.
People might not have had enough relations with minorities (especially black people) so they come to a crossroads about what to think about them. Look at the negative or the positive only? Which charge should I have? That's probably what a lot of white people are struggling with (or maybe waaay too confident about lol).
Economic distress raises the temperature for everyone already near the edge. This is not an ideal situation to adopt a "view from elsewhere".
Quote from: Herman on October 12, 2020, 09:31:22 AM
Airing of fictional grievances ("they call you a racist when you sneeze") is a major industry with the right.
Calling into q. "Mr No-Sides'" self-awareness.
Yep, complaining about one side puts people on the other side automatically. That's how it works. Pick a side, even if you don't believe in it, and fight! For the sake of unity!
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 07:57:12 AM
Abe wanted to send the slaves back to Africa. He couldn't foresee a multi-racial society ever working, especially when those whose ancestors had been enslaved may have bitterness or an axe to grind (Jefferson said something similar). Hence Liberia of another location to deal with that problem. The way America has struggled with race the last 150+ years you see the wisdom in his actions. The multi-racial, multi-cultural nation ideologues want isn't working and never will. South Africa is another modern example. The whites who are crazy enough to stay fear for their lives. No amount of ideological hocus pocus can erase the reality of race, culture and genetic differences.
Most of the axe-grinding has been by white racist a$$holes, the kind inclined to talk about genetic differences.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 12, 2020, 01:51:58 PM
Most of the axe-grinding has been by white racist a$$holes, the kind inclined to talk about genetic differences.
Indeed: Hence the whole White Grievance core to Trumpism. Of course this comes to us from "happy to be a jerk" dowder.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 12, 2020, 01:51:58 PM
Most of the axe-grinding has been by white racist a$$holes, the kind inclined to talk about genetic differences.
Multicultural is how people live in big cities and their surroundings. There's is a group of Chinese women who go for walks by my house in the morning talking in their language. I don't feel like shouting "speak English, you're in America" because when they don't show up I miss them and they sound like they have high IQs.
This is right up Greg's and Mini Bear's alley "Ewverywhere's a safe space except for White Men!"
https://www.youtube.com/v/9r6hgCw1KYY
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 07:57:12 AM
Abe wanted to send the slaves back to Africa. He couldn't foresee a multi-racial society ever working, especially when those whose ancestors had been enslaved may have bitterness or an axe to grind (Jefferson said something similar). Hence Liberia of another location to deal with that problem. The way America has struggled with race the last 150+ years you see the wisdom in his actions. The multi-racial, multi-cultural nation ideologues want isn't working and never will. South Africa is another modern example. The whites who are crazy enough to stay fear for their lives. No amount of ideological hocus pocus can erase the reality of race, culture and genetic differences.
Yeah, send the Europeans home, they've just caused too much grief over all these years.
Unhid this post just to goggle at it.
I guess it's helpful when conservatives remove all pretense and tell us what they really believe: pseudo-scientific racism, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing good! I'm not stupid enough to think my nominal "whiteness" as a Jew will protect me much from these assholes.
Quote from: Daverz on October 12, 2020, 03:45:20 PM
Yeah, send the Europeans home, they've just caused too much grief over all these years.
Unhid this post just to goggle at it.
I guess it's helpful when conservatives remove all pretense and tell us what they really believe: pseudo-scientific racism, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing good! I'm not stupid enough to think my nominal "whiteness" as a Jew will protect me much from these assholes.
Trump gives them promise of a life with no moral guard rails. Instructive to know how hungry Mini Bear is for that.
Quote from: drogulus on October 12, 2020, 03:15:21 PM
Multicultural is how people live in big cities and their surroundings.
Rootless Cosmopolitans! Almost certainly engaging in
Kulturbolschewismus Cultural Marxism.
Happy Indigenous People's Day, everybody.
If anyone is curious about the Proud Boys, the leader Enrique Tarrio just finished an interview over 2 hours long:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj-WUk0c5wQ&ab_channel=TimcastIRL
They don't sound scary, though... he said they are "technically antifascist," don't accept racists or wifebeaters, think that the gay hijacking of the Proud Boys hashtag thing was funny and joked about it, etc...
they are working with BLM for something, I forgot what it was exactly.
He seems like a really chill dude. Meh.
...(but sure, fake news is not a thing, and no reason to question it... riiiiiight)....
Quote from: Daverz on October 12, 2020, 05:34:36 PM
Rootless Cosmopolitans! Almost certainly engaging in Kulturbolschewismus Cultural Marxism.
Happy Indigenous People's Day, everybody.
Dang!
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 04:31:58 PM
You probably have red or blonde hair and skin as white as snow. The whole Jew thing as being ethnic or non-white is mostly malarky for Ashkenazi.
The horseshoe theory proves its worth again. That second sentence is one of the main themes of Leftist antisemitism/antizionism.
Egad, I need a shower now. Why do you people respond to this Dowder thing?
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 07:57:12 AM
Abe wanted to send the slaves back to Africa. He couldn't foresee a multi-racial society ever working, especially when those whose ancestors had been enslaved may have bitterness or an axe to grind (Jefferson said something similar). Hence Liberia of another location to deal with that problem. The way America has struggled with race the last 150+ years you see the wisdom in his actions. The multi-racial, multi-cultural nation ideologues want isn't working and never will. South Africa is another modern example. The whites who are crazy enough to stay fear for their lives. No amount of ideological hocus pocus can erase the reality of race, culture and genetic differences.
I wholeheartedly agree. The nation should revert to a country of native-American people and other races should go back to Europe and Africa.
Quote from: JBS on October 12, 2020, 06:52:23 PM
The horseshoe theory proves its worth again. That second sentence is one of the main themes of Leftist antisemitism/antizionism.
I object to the conflation of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. I consider myself a humanist, which is not consistent support the idea of a Jewish state or a Muslim state or a Christian state or a Buddhist state. Am I an anti-Semite? (I'm sure Bari Weiss would say so. I'm definitely anti-Likud, which is probably good enough for her to say so.)
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 12, 2020, 08:04:32 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. The nation should revert to a country of native-American people and other races should go back to Europe and Africa.
There's also the extreme opposite perspective of that...
The Case for Adding 672 Million More Americans (by Matthew Yglesias, co-founder of progressive site Vox)
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/08/one-billion-americans-by-matthew-yglesias-book-excerpt.html
Side thought, but something about his empty stare is creepy, if you image search his photos they all look like this...
(https://www.apbspeakers.com/media/6688/yglesias_matthew_062019.jpg?center=0.54958677685950408,0.455&mode=crop&quality=70&height=775&rnd=132159017000000000)
Native Americans good, immigrants good... ehhh what would Native Americans think about adding 672 million more Americans, though? Would their reservations be preserved?
Quote from: Daverz on October 12, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
I object to the conflation of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. I consider myself a humanist, which is not consistent support the idea of a Jewish state or a Muslim state or a Christian state or a Buddhist state. Am I an anti-Semite? (I'm sure Bari Weiss would say so. I'm definitely anti-Likud, which is probably good enough for her to say so.)
Your version of antizionism is not the Leftist version. And not all adherents of the Leftist version are antisemites, but a whole lot of them are antisemites for whom antizionism is simply a societally approved way of being antisemitic. And certain structural features of antizionism--it bases itself on false historical narratives, for instance--are antisemitic.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 12, 2020, 08:04:32 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. The nation should revert to a country of native-American people and other races should go back to Europe and Africa.
We don't want them!
Quote from: JBS on October 12, 2020, 08:18:33 PM
Your version of antizionism is not the Leftist version. And not all adherents of the Leftist version are antisemites, but a whole lot of them are antisemites for whom antizionism is simply a societally approved way of being antisemitic. And certain structural features of antizionism--it bases itself on false historical narratives, for instance--are antisemitic.
Who exactly are we talking about here?
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 07:57:12 AM
The multi-racial, multi-cultural nation ideologues want isn't working and never will. South Africa is another modern example. The whites who are crazy enough to stay fear for their lives. No amount of ideological hocus pocus can erase the reality of race, culture and genetic differences.
Don't get your DNA tested because you might not like what you find out. As for South Africa, that's a ridiculous comparison. That being said, I do think cultural differences matter and that the left should compromise much more on immigration policy in the U.S AND Europe. You certainly don't want a drastic change of values or a large group of people who have no regard for their adopted country. Moderation. In the U.S., some people on the left practically consider Obama a fascist. But America is an immigrant, multicultural country and New York is as American as Bemidji. If you're against multiculturalism, you're in the wrong country.
Well, guys, you sure made dowdyman a happy man by making apartheid and immigrant genetics an acceptable conversation topic.
Presumably, the amusement Huggy Bear was looking forward to: "Barrett hearings underscore Biden's criticisms that Rs are too willing to abuse power, have screwy priorities and maintain antagonism toward health care. The stunt is only making the "out-of-touch extremists" label stick even more to Republicans."
Could be posted in the Covid thread, but equally here, I think.
After Scientific American and The Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine calls for voters to defeat Trump:
https://www.livescience.com/new-england-journal-medicine-coronavirus-response-failure-trump-administration.html (https://www.livescience.com/new-england-journal-medicine-coronavirus-response-failure-trump-administration.html)
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts confirms receipt of my ballot.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 13, 2020, 07:00:15 AM
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts confirms receipt of my ballot.
Got a notification that mine was received on Sunday after putting it in the mail on Tuesday. Lucky I didn't put it in one of those fake Republican dropboxes.
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 09:51:06 PM
I did. 80% British Isles, primarily from Scotland.
What's the rest 20 % ?
What if native Americans told you to go back to Scotland?
Quote from: André on October 13, 2020, 06:48:50 AM
Could be posted in the Covid thread, but equally here, I think.
After Scientific American and The Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine calls for voters to defeat Trump:
https://www.livescience.com/new-england-journal-medicine-coronavirus-response-failure-trump-administration.html (https://www.livescience.com/new-england-journal-medicine-coronavirus-response-failure-trump-administration.html)
It may not be wise for science and medical journals to wade into politics so brazenly. Even after Biden wins, there could be consequences. Hopefully, fun ensues.
Speaking of fun, fairly hot off the presses of the failing New York Times: Europe Can Impose Tariffs on U.S. in Long-Running Aircraft Battle (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/business/economy/boeing-europe-tariffs-trade.html)
This would have been gold for Trump were he to win reelection. Of course, this has been going on since Shrub, so even Biden's victory doesn't portend a quick resolution. Let's see if Yurpeans escalate matters. I hope they do.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 13, 2020, 07:21:49 AM
What's the rest 20 % ?
What if native Americans told you to go back to Scotland?
Would they take him? Apart from the weather, Scotland is very nice. Universal healthcare!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qHnT83BjLz8/hqdefault.jpg)
The next Veep loves cults of personality.
Quote from: milk on October 12, 2020, 09:43:10 PM
Don't get your DNA tested because you might not like what you find out.
It is fun, though. We have the family records of the German immigrant who came to the US a really long time ago, but somehow I'm only 2% German... and 1% Sub-Saharan African somehow lol.
Regardless, having results (~18%) from Norway and Sweden is the most fun, imagining Viking ancestors. ;D
Quote from: milk on October 12, 2020, 09:43:10 PM
Moderation.
People are too bored for that.
FBI: Whitmer plotters also discussed kidnapping Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/ralph-northam-gretchen-witmer-kidnapping-plot/2020/10/13/26b4e31a-0d5f-11eb-b1e8-16b59b92b36d_story.html)
"An FBI agent said Tuesday that some of those charged in a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer also discussed "taking" Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam, who reacted to the news by accusing President Trump of fueling extremism with reckless rhetoric.
The disturbing allegations about politically motivated violence surfaced during a day-long court hearing over what law enforcement officials say was a plan to abduct Michigan's highest elected official and either leave her on a boat in the middle of a lake or put her "on trial" before a self-styled militia.
Northam, like Whitmer a Democrat, said as a former Army doctor he had faced threats from foreign enemies but never before from his own commander in chief.
"These threats and this rhetoric is not coming from another country," the governor said at an afternoon news briefing in Richmond. "It's coming from Washington. And that I regret, and it needs to stop."
White House officials did not immediately respond to a request for comment but have accused governors of speaking divisively.
During the hearing here in Grand Rapids to discuss the charges filed last week against members of a self-proclaimed militia accused of plotting to kidnap Michigan's governor, FBI Special Agent Richard Trask revealed that months ago, some of the suspects met in Dublin, Ohio, where Northam was also discussed as a potential target.
"At this meeting, they discussed possible targets, taking a sitting governor, specifically issues with the governors of Michigan and Virginia, based upon the lockdown orders," Trask told the court, referring to state-mandated restrictions implemented to combat the spread of the coronavirus.
No one has been charged with plotting to kidnap Northam, but, like Whitmer, Virginia's governor was the target of intense criticism over the summer from conservatives angry at state-mandated restrictions amid the pandemic. Trump has sharply criticized both, tweeting all-caps demands in the spring that their states be "liberated."[...]
Quote from: Dowder on October 12, 2020, 08:52:09 PM
Zionism=Nazism.
The only people who are not Leftists but who use that slogan are right wing antisemites. No one else on the Right would use it.
So you've outed yourself as an antisemite. Should not be a surprise to anyone given the racism you express about blacks and other minorities.
I call that No Surprise in the Least.
Quote from: JBS on October 13, 2020, 04:57:48 PM
The only people who are not Leftists but who use that slogan are right wing antisemites. No one else on the Right would use it.
What does "Zionism=Nazism" mean? Never heard that one before.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 13, 2020, 04:41:56 PM
A McGuffin?
It's the name of something also called the "fallacy of purity", like so:
A: No Scotsman would equate Zionism with Nazism
B: I know a Scotsman who did that
C: Yes, but No True Scotsman would
Quote from: Dowder on October 13, 2020, 07:56:50 PM
Pretty much the same fascist philosophy (ethnostate, blood & soil, reclaiming lost land that really belongs to them, etc)
Loath as I am to respond to neo-Nazis, I would say that all sides are in conflict over those things in the parentheses. It's also true that the largest demographic group in Israel identifies as being from the region. Ashkenazis are a slightly smaller grouping. I have an old friend on Facebook that is extreme left - the kind of people who hate the Democrats worse than republicans. Not just them, but a lot of people I come across decry, in principle, the idea of a state based on religion and oppose a two-state solution. This is the choice of the perfect over the good and a recipe for never ending strife.
Speaking of my far left FB friends: is anybody noticing the extradition hearing of Julian Assange and the concomitant legislation proposed by Gabbard?
Kind of weak sauce hearings yesterday, judging by some of the highlights that made it to nightly propaganda broadcasts. More color is available on the interwebs, of course. I enjoy how some Dems get all pissy when a nominee explicitly invokes the Ginsburg Rule. I also did not believe, until I watched myself, the opening questions from Senator Hirono. No doubt she has her supporters, and no doubt some/many/most/all of her supporters might say she behaved in a principled manner, but her opening two questions were daffy by any reasonable standard. Ah, Dems!
Support for Barrett nomination ticks up to 48 percent: poll (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/520944-support-for-barrett-nomination-ticks-up-to-48-percent-poll)
I forgot, are poll numbers meaningful measures when appointing SCOTUS judges?
Quote from: Todd on October 14, 2020, 04:57:08 AM
Support for Barrett nomination ticks up to 48 percent: poll (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/520944-support-for-barrett-nomination-ticks-up-to-48-percent-poll)
I forgot, are poll numbers meaningful measures when appointing SCOTUS judges?
According to my understanding of the US system, appointing SCOTUS judges is the prerogative of the POTUS who is not legally bound in any way to take into account polls in thsi respect.
Am I wrong?
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 05:11:27 AM
According to my understanding of the US system, appointing SCOTUS judges is the prerogative of the POTUS who is not legally bound in any way to take into account polls in thsi respect.
Am I wrong?
The president nominates and the Senate confirms. Of course, the point is that some people want to pretend as though polls mean something. Some people appear to confuse polls with democratic processes and outcomes, or with the Constitution itself. A Biden campaign spokeswoman attempted to conflate constitutionality and polling just this past weekend, for instance.
Quote from: Todd on October 14, 2020, 05:16:55 AM
The president nominates and the Senate confirms. Of course, the point is that some people want to pretend as though polls mean something. Some people appear to confuse polls with democratic processes and outcomes, or with the Constitution itself. A Biden campaign spokeswoman attempted to conflate constitutionality and polling just this past weekend, for instance.
I see.
Let's suppose the reverse situation: a Democratic incumbent-but-most-probably-already-ex-POTUS having a Senate majority and facing a vacancy in the SCOTUS only two month prior to the elections. I do wonder: would s/he not nominate their favorite for the position, letting instead their Republican successor to do that?
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 05:29:24 AM
Let's suppose the reverse situation: a Democratic incumbent-but-most-probably-already-ex-POTUS having a Senate majority and facing a vacancy in the SCOTUS only two month prior to the elections. I do wonder: would s/he not nominate their favorite for the position, letting instead their Republican successor to do that?
Of course not.
As you know, the situation was
sort of reversed in the last year of Obama's term. Obama nominated poor, poor Merrick, but McConnell had the power to prevent the nomination from going through, so he did so. Dems have been butthurt ever since. Now, very surprisingly, Dems have adopted some of the very same arguments that Republicans used during the Garland fiasco. And vice versa.
Democrats, though, being both more intelligent and more moral people than anyone else on earth, are quick to point out how the situations are very, very different. They will even use such powerful logician's tricks as "moral equivalence" and "both-siderism", and so forth. It is super-complicated.
Quote from: Todd on October 14, 2020, 05:46:30 AM
"both-siderism"
This term keep popping up in this thread. Can anyone please explain it to me in no uncertain terms?
Quote from: milk on October 14, 2020, 02:59:05 AM
Loath as I am to respond to neo-Nazis, I would say that all sides are in conflict over those things in the parenthesis. It's also true that the largest demographic group in Israel identifies as being from the region. Ashkenazis are a slightly smaller grouping. I have an old friend on Facebook that is extreme left - the kind of people who hate the Democrats worse than republicans. Not just them, but a lot of people I come across decry, in principle, the idea of a state based on religion and oppose a two-state solution. This is the choice of the perfect over the good and a recipe for never ending strife.
Speaking of my far left FB friends: is anybody noticing the extradition hearing of Julian Assange and the concomitant legislation proposed by Gabbard?
I will only interject that one of the false narratives is what I bolded: that Israel is a state based on religion. It is not.
Jews are a people. Which is why there are Jews who are Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, or atheists. But they are still Jews.
Israel is the country of the Jewish people, in which nonJews have full civil rights.
This falsification of history is one of the structural features of antizionism that are inherently antisemitic.
As for Assange, I knew about his hearing, but not about Gabbard's proposed bill.
Quote from: Todd on October 14, 2020, 05:46:30 AM
Of course not.
As you know, the situation was sort of reversed in the last year of Obama's term. Obama nominated poor, poor Merrick, but McConnell had the power to prevent the nomination from going through, so he did so. Dems have been butthurt ever since. Now, very surprisingly, Dems have adopted some of the very same arguments that Republicans used during the Garland fiasco. And vice versa.
Democrats, though, being both more intelligent and more moral people than anyone else on earth, are quick to point out how the situations are very, very different. They will even use such powerful logician's tricks as "moral equivalence" and "both-siderism", and so forth. It is super-complicated.
Not correct. The Democratic position is that the GOP, having declared that a historical pattern is actually a constitutional principle in 2016, are now ignoring that supposed principle and displaying their hypocrisy.
Had McConnell been honest in 2016 and admitted that he refused to let the Garland nomination go forward simply because he had the power to do so, that argument would not be available.
Quote from: JBS on October 14, 2020, 05:56:00 AM
I will only interject that one of the false narratives is what I bolded: that Israel is a state based on religion. It is not.
Jews are a people. Which is why there are Jews who are Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, or atheists. But they are still Jews.
Israel is the country of the Jewish people, in which nonJews have full civil rights.
I have one simple litmus test in this respect for both Europeans and Americans: if hardpressed to the point of a gun to choose the Middle East state where one would reside for the whole remainder of one's life, what would it be?
My answer is Israel, hands down and with no hesitation whatsoever.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 05:50:30 AM
This term keep popping up in this thread. Can anyone please explain it to me in no uncertain terms?
It's a reflexive need, particularly by the media, to pretend that "both sides do it" in any conflict between the Democratic and Republican party, usually by making false equivalencies and ignoring history and context. It's a very lazy way to try to appear neutral.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 06:05:59 AM
I have one simple litmus test in this respect for both Europeans and Americans: if hardpressed to the point of a gun to choose the Middle East state where one would reside for the whole remainder of one's life, what would it be?
My answer is Israel, hands down and with no hesitation whatsoever.
It's always best to be on the winning side. As to right and wrong, that is a completely different matter which I will not discuss here.
Quote from: Daverz on October 14, 2020, 06:18:06 AM
It's a reflexive need, particularly by the media, to pretend that "both sides do it" in any conflict between the Democratic and Republican party, usually by making false equivalencies and ignoring history and context. It's a very lazy way to try to appear neutral.
Thanks. From the above I infer that both sides don't actually do it and that when Democrats are in conflict with Republicans, if one removes false equivalencies and take history and context into account, they are generally right, or at least less wrong than the Republicans. Is that true?
Quote from: The new erato on October 14, 2020, 06:22:04 AM
It's always best to be on the winning side. As to right and wrong, that is a completely different matter which I will not discuss here.
It's got nothing to do with the winning side, or right or wrong, and everything to do with the lifestyle. In Israel I could safely and freely listen to "classical music", browse the Internet, drink alcohol (even fill my cellar with wine bottles if I so wished) and comment on GMG about international politics. I could even go to an Orthodox church. And if I criticized the government in a bar, I'd eventually walk home undisturbed and without fear. And many, many, many other things --- none of which I could do in any of Israel's neighbors, with the partial exception of Lebanon but the level of violence there is much higher than in Israel and the politics much more unstable and susceptible to Hamas inluence.
It's true I could also die in a terrorist attack, or be killed by a Hamas rocket fired from Lebanon or Syria --- but it's a risk I'd be willing to take if hardpressed.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 06:25:51 AM
Thanks. From the above I infer that both sides don't actually do it and that when Democrats are in conflict with Republicans, if one removes false equivalencies and take history and context into account, they are generally right, or at least less wrong than the Republicans. Is that true?
You're completely missing the point. Both-siderism isn't about the "sides", it's about the need of the both-siderist to create false equivalencies to avoid engaging in any meaningful way with the conflicts involved. If you want to pick a side, that's fine. If you want to avoid picking a side, that's fine. But don't create a bullshit narrative of equivalency between them.
Quote from: Daverz on October 14, 2020, 06:42:24 AM
You're completely missing the point. Both-siderism isn't about the "sides", it's about the need of the both-siderist to create false equivalencies to avoid engaging in any meaningful way with the conflicts involved. If you want to pick a side, that's fine. If you want to avoid picking a side, that's fine. But don't create a bullshit narrative of equivalency between them.
I'm really confused. Could you please give me an example or two?
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 06:40:56 AM
It's got nothing to do with the winning side, or right or wrong, and everything to do with the lifestyle.
Yes, for you. There are (or used to be) other people there with a historical right to their own lifestyle for better or worse whether it is the lifestyle you and I would choose. In short, I find where you (or I; I wouldn't want to live anywhere in the region as there are too many religious nuts on all sides) would prefer to live totally without relevance to what is happening in the region. Just to explain my comment without inviting to a long and fruitless discussion.
Quote from: The new erato on October 14, 2020, 06:53:53 AM
Yes, for you. There are (or used to be) other people there with a historical right to their own lifestyle for better or worse whether it is the lifestyle you and I would choose. In short, I find where you (or I; I wouldn't want to live anywhere in the region as there are too many religious nuts on all sides) would prefer to live totally without relevance to what is happening in the region. Just to explain my comment without inviting to a long and fruitless discussion.
I got your point alright. I hope you got mine as well. The last thing I want is to be involved in a long and fruitless discussion regarding Israel.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 06:43:12 AM
I'm really confused.
I'm too tired for this nonsense.
Quote
Could you please give me an example or two?
You should easily be able to find your own examples. Some are quite famous like Trump's "good people on both sides".
I just googled "bothsiderism" and found lots of examples. Like
https://crooksandliars.com/2018/12/chuck-todd-normalizes-republicans-stealing
Chuck Todd is the poster boy of bothsiderism.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 07:00:17 AM
I got your point alright. I hope you got mine as well. The last thing I want is to be involved in a long and fruitless discussion regarding Israel.
We agree on that.
Quote from: Daverz on October 14, 2020, 07:10:52 AM
Some are quite famous like Trump's "good people on both sides".
How is that even wrong, though? Is he, as a Republican, supposed to think that all Democrats are bad? (which would obviously be a very tribalistic monkey brain attitude)
It's fair to look at both sides and see if they are adhering to actual logic and principles that don't create double standards and transcend group identity. But to the people who think that group identity transcends logic and universal principles, I say "have fun making the world a chaotic hellhole full of lies, violence, and manipulation," because that's what you'll get.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 05:11:27 AM
According to my understanding of the US system, appointing SCOTUS judges is the prerogative of the POTUS
If Mitch McConnell doesn't object.
Quote from: Daverz on October 14, 2020, 07:10:52 AM
I'm too tired for this nonsense.
You should easily be able to find your own examples. Some are quite famous like Trump's "good people on both sides".
I just googled "bothsiderism" and found lots of examples. Like
https://crooksandliars.com/2018/12/chuck-todd-normalizes-republicans-stealing
Chuck Todd is the poster boy of bothsiderism.
From bothsiderism to lame-duck sessions. What the hell is a lame-duck sessions? ???
And who is Chuck Todd?
Quote from: Daverz on October 14, 2020, 07:20:11 AM
If Mitch McConnell doesn't object.
Todd already corrected me on that one: POTUS nominates and the Senate approves, or not. I guess it's written in the COTUS.
Quote from: JBS on October 14, 2020, 05:56:00 AM
I will only interject that one of the false narratives is what I bolded: that Israel is a state based on religion. It is not.
Jews are a people. Which is why there are Jews who are Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, or atheists. But they are still Jews.
Israel is the country of the Jewish people, in which nonJews have full civil rights.
This falsification of history is one of the structural features of antizionism that are inherently antisemitic.
As for Assange, I knew about his hearing, but not about Gabbard's proposed bill.
Good point.
Quote from: JBS on October 14, 2020, 06:03:06 AM
Not correct. The Democratic position is that the GOP, having declared that a historical pattern is actually a constitutional principle in 2016, are now ignoring that supposed principle and displaying their hypocrisy.
Had McConnell been honest in 2016 and admitted that he refused to let the Garland nomination go forward simply because he had the power to do so, that argument would not be available.
+1 response.
Quote from: Daverz on October 14, 2020, 06:18:06 AM
It's a reflexive need, particularly by the media, to pretend that "both sides do it" in any conflict between the Democratic and Republican party, usually by making false equivalencies and ignoring history and context. It's a very lazy way to try to appear neutral.
Not quite. The problem with both-sideism and 'equal time', is that the GOP often relies on lies, and since jan 2017 almost exclusively lies in its communications with the press and the public.
For years it was taboo in the media to say "this is not true" when a Trump surrogate floated some outrageous lies. The media (supposedly left wing liberals one and all) just weren't prepared to be this aggresive.
Media now do this, because lies (Benghazi! Emails! Her own server!) are not equal to truthful or factual statements.
You can't say Trump's flagrant abuse of the emoluments act is equalled out by Hunter Biden taking home "billions from Burisma", because there is no there there in the latter case.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 07:20:39 AM
From bothsiderism to lame-duck sessions. What the hell is a lame-duck sessions? ???
And who is Chuck Todd?
Lame Duck Session: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame-duck_session. Elections are in early November, but the new members will only be sworn in in early January. So if the current Congress meets during this time, it's called lame duck session. It can also be used for the President (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_duck_(politics))
Chuck Todd is a journalist for NBC.
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 07:17:27 AM
How is that even wrong, though? Is he, as a Republican, supposed to think that all Democrats are bad? (which would obviously be a very tribalistic monkey brain attitude)
It's really stunning how little you know and keep on babbling about how other people don't get it because they don't have your superior above-it-all mindset.
Trump saying there were "Good people on both sides" was after the Charlottesville riots with neo-nazis marching with torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us" and one of them killing a woman by driving his car into a group of people. This was August 2017. I guess you weren't born yet at that time.
Trump did not want to alienate the neo-nazis, and so he said there were good people on both sides.
It's kind of funny how people here keep on saying people from Finland or wherever don't get the US, and here is an American kid who knows pretty much
nothing about his own country because he's too busy admiring himself. He is however one of the top frequent posters on this topic.
Chuck Todd is the leader of an action group collecting donations to chuck Todd eventually.
He's even got his own television show, all for the greater good.
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 07:20:39 AM
From bothsiderism to lame-duck sessions. What the hell is a lame-duck sessions? ???
And who is Chuck Todd?
Chuck Todd is one of MSNBC/NBC's main political honchos. His primary show is Meet the Press.
A lot of people don't like him because he doesn't challenge Trump supporters and spokespeople enough. I think he is in fact doing a very good job. His method is to prompt them to talk, and when they lie, hand them all the rope they need to hang themselves.
Barrett's uptick in polls (that are essentially meaningless: she's was going to be confirmed even if she had acted as crazily as Kav the Beer Man) is probably because she wore 'warm' red dresses for the first two days and acts demurely.
Never mind that she just lied about whether or not she ever voted by mail.
As a side remark regarding Chuck Todd, I think one could probably publish a quite entertaining book just listing some of the more characterful American names. Maybe it would even become an international bestseller, potentially 😄
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2020, 09:37:17 AM
Trump saying there were "Good people on both sides" was after the Charlottesville riots with neo-nazis marching with torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us" and one of them killing a woman by driving his car into a group of people. This was August 2017. I guess you weren't born yet at that time.
Context would have helped. It could have been a quote from some other time, apparently you have memorized every single word the president has ever said so anything less is being clueless and I should have known already.
Yes, I know that story, I was in Japan at the time and they even had it on TV there...
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2020, 09:37:17 AM
It's kind of funny how people here keep on saying people from Finland or wherever don't get the US, and here is an American kid who knows pretty much nothing about his own country because he's too busy admiring himself. He is however one of the top frequent posters on this topic.
I'm glad I'm not so full of spite like you. Why do you have to be so negative all the time? And why do you talk to people who don't agree with you with so much contempt?
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2020, 05:50:30 AM
This term keep popping up in this thread. Can anyone please explain it to me in no uncertain terms?
It means nothing, despite what its fans may write or say.
Quote from: JBS on October 14, 2020, 06:03:06 AM
Not correct. The Democratic position is that the GOP, having declared that a historical pattern is actually a constitutional principle in 2016, are now ignoring that supposed principle and displaying their hypocrisy.
Had McConnell been honest in 2016 and admitted that he refused to let the Garland nomination go forward simply because he had the power to do so, that argument would not be available.
No one believed McConnell in 2016. People who adopt his argument in any way are as dishonest as he was.
So in the context of that quote "Good people on both sides," is it supposed to mean that there are good right-wing extremists and good left-wing extremists?
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 10:15:07 AM
So in the context of that quote "Good people on both sides," is it supposed to mean that there are good right-wing extremists and good left-wing extremists?
No, that's what it would mean if there was no context. Trump was interested in excusing one side for their deplorable actions. The reaction from these groups was very positive. They knew exactly what Trump did. Antifa types understood it the same way. Both sides meant nothing for them except for how it legitimized their opponents.
Most non-extremists also understood that Trump favored one side by a remark that superficially favored no one. In context, the meaning was clear.
Quote from: drogulus on October 14, 2020, 11:00:26 AM
No, that's what it would mean if there was no context. Trump was interested in excusing one side for their deplorable actions. The reaction from these groups was very positive. They knew exactly what Trump did. Antifa types understood it the same way. Both sides meant nothing for them except for how it legitimized their opponents.
Most non-extremists also understood that Trump favored one side by a remark that superficially favored no one. In context, the meaning was clear.
?
QuoteTrump, Aug. 14, 2017: Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.
Trump, Aug. 15, 2017: I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally.
Nor was that the last time Trump condemned white supremacy by name.
After nearly two dozen people were killed on Aug. 3, 2019, in a shooting at a Wal-Mart in El Paso, Trump said: "The shooter in El Paso posted a manifesto online consumed by racist hate. In one voice, our nation must condemn racism, bigotry, and white supremacy. These sinister ideologies must be defeated. Hate has no place in America. Hatred warps the mind, ravages the heart, and devours the soul. We have asked the FBI to identify all further resources they need to investigate and disrupt hate crimes and domestic terrorism — whatever they need."
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/trump-has-condemned-white-supremacists/
And recently:
Quote"I condemn all white supremacists, I condemn the Proud Boys. I don't know much about the Proud Boys but I condemn that," Trump said in an interview with Fox News on Thursday.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/2/trump-denounces-all-white-supremacists-including-proud-boys
The bizarre part is people asking him to condemn a group that he doesn't even know about, that happens to be (as I listened to the leader's interview), not even racist or fascist to begin with.
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 11:04:11 AM
?
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/trump-has-condemned-white-supremacists/
And recently:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/2/trump-denounces-all-white-supremacists-including-proud-boys
The bizarre part is people asking him to condemn a group that he doesn't even know about, that happens to be (as I listened to the leader's interview), not even racist or fascist to begin with.
No one believes the statements Trump makes that are scripted. They believe his unscripted remarks are what he means.
Trump attacked Somalians in Minnesota as terrorists and criminals. Should I wait for him to release a statement to the effect that racism has no part blah blah etc. or is it OK to accept that Trump meant what he said?
Quote from: drogulus on October 14, 2020, 11:30:08 AM
No one believes the statements Trump makes that are scripted. They believe his unscripted remarks are what he means.
Those three quotes are from a script, and the others aren't? (and why would he read from a script that he disagrees with?)
Why would he condemn a group of people who would vote for him?
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist?
Quote from: drogulus on October 14, 2020, 11:30:08 AM
Trump attacked Somalians in Minnesota as terrorists and criminals. Should I wait for him to release a statement to the effect that racism has no part blah blah etc. or is it OK to accept that Trump meant what he said?
Which attack is this? Is it from the tweet here?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-islamophobia-somali-refugees-minnesota_n_5f5f7c3bc5b6fd3d05273119
Quote from: drogulus on October 14, 2020, 11:30:08 AM
No one believes the statements Trump makes that are scripted. They believe his unscripted remarks are what he means.
Very stupid and ignorant people do believe Trump's phony statements, and they go online to propagate them. You have just been talking to one.
For Florestan, a fresh example of someone important, powerful, and influential using "both-sideism": Olbermann dismisses Romney criticism on 'vile' rhetoric: 'Both-sideism in the face of evil' (https://thehill.com/homenews/media/521028-olbermann-dismisses-romney-criticism-on-vile-rhetoric-bothsideism-in-the-face-of)
That's right, Keith Olbermann.
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2020, 12:14:29 PM
Very stupid and ignorant people do believe Trump's phony statements, and they go online to propagate them. You have just been talking to one.
So why is it that you make everything a personal insult and don't discuss the actual questions themselves?
You knew he was a lousy president, but did you know he was just as lousy a parent?--Barron contracted the coronavirus.
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 11:50:05 AM
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist?
Why would he try to do that? Just the bare possibility that he could undergo a dramatic conversion and "see the light" is not worth considering.
Quote from: drogulus on October 14, 2020, 02:00:57 PM
Why would he try to do that? Just the bare possibility that he could undergo a dramatic conversion and "see the light" is not worth considering.
Let me rephrase that.
From:
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist?
to:
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he was never a white supremacist all along?
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Let me rephrase that.
From:
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist?
to:
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he was never a white supremacist all along?
Those would have to be pretty special people who "didn't know very much about it". Where would you find them?
Quote from: drogulus on October 14, 2020, 03:12:10 PM
Those would have to be pretty special people who "didn't know very much about it". Where would you find them?
Well here's a poll:
https://www.newsweek.com/half-americans-think-trump-racist-additional-13-percent-are-unsure-poll-1518272
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/1k48xabxox/20200714_yahoo_coronavirus_toplines.pdf
20. Do you think that Donald Trump is a racist?
Yes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50%
No . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .37%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13%
I would belong under the 13% "Not sure."
Here's a gem:
40. How are race relations in the U.S.?
Generally good . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21%
Generally bad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18%
41. How are race relations in your community?
Generally good . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 58%
Generally bad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22%
So... is it only certain areas where it's bad, is it media hype, or something else?
Quote from: drogulus on October 14, 2020, 02:00:57 PM
Why would he try to do that? Just the bare possibility that he could undergo a dramatic conversion and "see the light" is not worth considering.
"Is there anything Trump can do or say, which would convince you that he is not a con man?"
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 14, 2020, 04:31:07 PM
"Is there anything Trump can do or say, which would convince you that he is not a con man?"
I suspect you aren't a true Schoenberg fan. Maybe you are pretending to like Schoenberg for some reason.
Is there anything you can do or say to convince me that you are truly a Schoenberg fan?
So if it's so obvious that Trump is a white supremacist and there's absolutely no way for him to convince people otherwise, why doesn't he just give in and admit it directly, instead of condemning it?
His voters are also supposedly white supremacists, so he wouldn't lose any votes, right?
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
I suspect you aren't a true Schoenberg fan. Maybe you are pretending to like Schoenberg for some reason.
Is there anything you can do or say to convince me that you are truly a Schoenberg fan?
So if it's so obvious that Trump is a white supremacist and there's absolutely no way for him to convince people otherwise, why doesn't he just give in and admit it directly, instead of condemning it?
His voters are also supposedly white supremacists, so he wouldn't lose any votes, right?
He doesn't accept the label as a criticism. Other than that, what else would he need to do? We don't need no admission. An admission might be a step too far for some of his voters who are comfortable with denied racism. In any case, what he says and does is enough. His "interpretation" is superfluous.
It's is an evidence problem, not an exercise in logical analysis about the condition that could be met for Trump to refute what the evidence says. What he can make a "not know much about it" audience believe doesn't signify. The same applies to the moon landing. What the "not sure" contingent won't be convinced about doesn't matter.
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
why doesn't he just give in and admit it directly, instead of condemning it?
His voters are also supposedly white supremacists, so he wouldn't lose any votes, right?
He's not very self-aware. I think only a mental condition can explain the quality and extent of his mendacity. He regards himself in the best possible light no matter what the circumstance. Is he the least racist person you've ever seen?
As for supporters and colleagues, some do need a fig leaf of plausible deniability.
Sez GMG's white supremacist.
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Let me rephrase that.
From:
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist?
to:
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he was never a white supremacist all along?
Nope. He and his dad had a whites only policy in their housing projects. They were prosecutes for this apartheid.
And then there were the Central Park Five, a piece of New York History you have been alerted to previously and obviously you did not do the research because you have no interest in finding out Trump is just an irredeemingly bad guy. Five black young dudes were accused of aggravated assault on a woman jogger. Trump took out big ads in the papers saying the five black kids should get the death penalty. At some point somevbody else confessed to the crime. Trump continued his campaign for killing those five kids. Even to this day he has not recanted. He's still angry those kids did not get killed.
As to race Trump lives way before the civil rights movement when white man could talk about black men as cattle. He loves that. He loved that awful couple in St Louis who pointed their guns at protesters walking by. He loves to talk the old talk about "suburban housewives / women" not being able to leave the house because of black people moving in the neighbourhood.
You can shut your eyes to this, but that doesn't change things.
Quote from: Dowder on October 14, 2020, 10:44:00 PM
The left wingers are still bringing up Charlottesville like Trump had anything to do with it. Get over that hoopla already and acknowledge the bad people on your side who instigate violence. Please.
Yes, there are stupid people on the left who don't know how the left must unite and become strategic about how to make progress happen. Kyle Kulinski is frustrated about this. So, bad people on the left, but also on the right and statistics say almost all domestic terrorism in the US is done by right-wingers. Only a tiny fraction is left-wingers or muslims or other minorities.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 15, 2020, 12:09:32 AM
Kyle Kulinski is frustrated about this.
Please, I need to sleep at night!
Can't do this with the picture of a frustrated X on my mind.
Kyle Kulinsky is the kind of chap whose rantings only can have the effect of pushing sensible, moderate people further and further to the right! Some kind of latter day Savonarola broadcasting from a basement, and yet another exaple of "politics as show business" (on the cheap side, in this case).
It seems that since decades politics has been half public show business and half clandestine backroom intrigue or techno-bureaucracy. This is not deny that new depths are being reached in 2020.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 14, 2020, 09:31:07 AM
Lame Duck Session: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame-duck_session. Elections are in early November, but the new members will only be sworn in in early January. So if the current Congress meets during this time, it's called lame duck session. It can also be used for the President (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_duck_(politics))
Chuck Todd is a journalist for NBC.
Quote from: JBS on October 14, 2020, 09:39:00 AM
Chuck Todd is one of MSNBC/NBC's main political honchos. His primary show is Meet the Press.
A lot of people don't like him because he doesn't challenge Trump supporters and spokespeople enough. I think he is in fact doing a very good job. His method is to prompt them to talk, and when they lie, hand them all the rope they need to hang themselves.
Quote from: Todd on October 14, 2020, 10:10:05 AM
It means nothing, despite what its fans may write or say.
Thank you all, gentlemen.
Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2020, 01:12:04 AM
Kyle Kulinsky is the kind of chap whose rantings only can have the effect of pushing sensible, moderate people further and further to the right! Some kind of latter day Savonarola broadcasting from a basement, and yet another exaple of "politics as show business" (on the cheap side, in this case).
Kyle Kulinski has converted conservatives into supporters of social democracy. Those ex-conservatives tell they saw the light when they started listening to him. He does it by never lying, being intellectually honest and patient while trying not to offend those he tries to convert, something I am certainly not able to do as you have seen.
I doubt you have listened to him much. You can't even write his name correctly.
Quote from: Todd on October 14, 2020, 12:16:58 PM
For Florestan, a fresh example of someone important, powerful, and influential using "both-sideism": Olbermann dismisses Romney criticism on 'vile' rhetoric: 'Both-sideism in the face of evil' (https://thehill.com/homenews/media/521028-olbermann-dismisses-romney-criticism-on-vile-rhetoric-bothsideism-in-the-face-of)
That's right, Keith Olbermann.
Lock them up?
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 12:53:52 AM
Please, I need to sleep at night!
Can't do this with the picture of a frustrated X on my mind.
Your insomnia is not my concern. Listen to new age music. Maybe that helps.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 15, 2020, 01:56:56 AM
Kyle Kulinski has converted conservatives into supporters of social democracy. Those ex-conservatives tell they saw the light when they started listening to him. He does it by never lying, being intellectually honest and patient while trying not to offend those he tries to convert, something I am certainly not able to do as you have seen.
I doubt you have listened to him much. You can't even write his name correctly.
I've listened enough to make an opinion... Too much, actually, and a complete waste of time.
You see, we've had these kind of boilerroom commentators being propelled by some irresponsible media owners to the limelight here in Spain over the past several years, and theyare now on the verge of destroying our democracy (all in the name of
alleged democracy).
I don't give a damn if I write his name correctly or not, TBH.
Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2020, 02:02:31 AM
I've listened enough to make an opinion... Too much, actually, and a complete waste of time.
You see, we've had these kind of boilerroom commentators being propelled by some irresponsible media owners to the limelight here in Spain over the past several years, and theyare now on the verge of destroying our democracy (all in the name of alleged democracy).
I don't know much about politics in Spain, but I assume "boilerroom commentators" aren't as needed over there as they are in the US where the mainstream media is complete corporate propaganda so you need these lefties to tell left wing perspective of things. I wonder what you have listened from Kyle if your opinion of him is that bad. I was blown away when I watched his video the first time. Such intellectual honestly is rare, even among the lefties.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 15, 2020, 01:59:12 AM
Your insomnia is not my concern.
And you call yourself a social democrat!
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 02:49:41 AM
And you call yourself a social democrat!
Yes, there are limits. If you lose your sleep over Kyle I can't help you. That's on you. Your attitude problem.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 15, 2020, 02:57:05 AM
Yes, there are limits. If you lose your sleep over Kyle I can't help you. That's on you. Your attitude problem.
A-ha!
If you lose your sleep over US politics nobody here can help you. That's on you. Your attitude problem.
Imagine, I was just kidding. I have never ever seen one second of this Kulinsky guy, and whatever sleep I'm losing it sure isn't over some guy on TV.
My "attitude problem" would perhaps be called "humor".
Quote from: greg on October 14, 2020, 11:50:05 AM
Those three quotes are from a script, and the others aren't? (and why would he read from a script that he disagrees with?)
Why would he condemn a group of people who would vote for him?
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist?
Which attack is this? Is it from the tweet here?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-islamophobia-somali-refugees-minnesota_n_5f5f7c3bc5b6fd3d05273119
No one has answered your questions to my satisfaction, or yours apparently, so I'll try:
Those three quotes are from a script and the others aren't? Yes, and it's perfectly obvious if you watch his performances when he speaks. Racist comments: Spontaneous speech with feeling and eye contact in direct address to the camera or audience, often as part of an incoherent rant with bad grammar and syntax, limited vocabulary, and incomplete and run on sentences. Scripted comments: Delivered woodenly and without emotion (or without appropriate emotion) with eyes on the words, like a ten year old reading from a book he's never seen before, with well-constructed sentences. It's hard for me to believe that anyone who has watched Trump speak with any regularity could have missed this disparity in delivery styles, particularly since it's intentionally exaggerated. Why exaggerated? See below:
and why would he read from a script that he disagrees with? Almost always because he has recently made an egregiously racist comment likely to offend people he considers potential supporters. Someone else (someone even more racist, but smarter and skilled at dissembling, meaning Stephen Miller) writes his walk-backs. Trump exaggerates the woodenness of his delivery in making these statements so that even the dimmest among his supporters will be able to tell that what he's reading is not his own words or thoughts. The principle is, to borrow and twist an old saw: Do as I say, not as I read.
Why would he condemn a group of people who would vote for him? See above. The people he's supposedly condemning can tell the difference between his thoughts and speech and those written in his walk backs, so they know the condemnation is insincere. He is winking at them when he reads it, and they wink back.
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist? There's nothing he could say to anyone who has paid attention to his public speech over the last three decades. You should try that maybe—paying attention.
Quote from: Florestan on October 15, 2020, 03:05:03 AM
A-ha!
If you lose your sleep over US politics nobody here can help you. That's on you. Your attitude problem.
Yes, I totally agree! Never have I said otherwise.
AP FACT CHECK: Trump falsifies Biden stance on fracking (https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-pennsylvania-fa798602a357d0f4a765739e36f4f82b)
One of the things I have found most purely delightful in the last couple weeks, including at the Veep debate, is the brouhaha about how Trump and crew claims Biden will ban fracking and Biden and crew denies it.
Drill, baby, drill!
Quote from: Todd on October 15, 2020, 05:01:22 AM
...the brouhaha about how Trump and crew claims Biden will ban fracking and Biden and crew denies it.
Drill, baby, drill!
Biden's insistence of staying corporate on the economic issues makes this funny:
Trump: Be afraid of the socialists, because Biden is going to give healthcare to everyone!Biden: No, I'm certainly not! I'm expanding ObamaCare at best!Leftists: Biden just doesn't give much reason to vote for him. He sucks less than Trump. That's it. :P
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 15, 2020, 04:37:42 AM
No one has answered your questions to my satisfaction, or yours apparently, so I'll try:
Those three quotes are from a script and the others aren't? Yes, and it's perfectly obvious if you watch his performances when he speaks. Racist comments: Spontaneous speech with feeling and eye contact in direct address to the camera or audience, often as part of an incoherent rant with bad grammar and syntax, limited vocabulary, and incomplete and run on sentences. Scripted comments: Delivered woodenly and without emotion (or appropriate emotion) with eyes on the words, like a ten year old reading from a book he's never seen before, with well-constructed sentences. It's hard for me to believe that anyone who has watched Trump speak with any regularity could have missed this disparity in delivery styles, particularly since it's intentionally exaggerated. Why exaggerated? See below:
and why would he read from a script that he disagrees with? Almost always because he has recently made an egregiously racist comment likely to offend people he considers potential supporters. Someone else (someone even more racist, but smarter and skilled at dissembling, meaning Stephen Miller) writes his walk-backs. Trump exaggerates the woodenness of his delivery in making these statements so that even the dimmest among his supporters will be able to tell that what he's reading is not his own words or thoughts. The principle is, to borrow and twist an old saw: Do as I say, not as I read.
Why would he condemn a group of people who would vote for him? See above. The people he's supposedly condemning can tell the difference between his thoughts and speech and those written in his walk backs, so they know the condemnation is insincere. He is winking at them when he reads it, and they wink back.
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist? There's nothing he could say to anyone who has paid attention to his public speech over the last three decades. You should try that maybe—paying attention.
This is a 100% accurate.
And you cannot expect the guy you're talking to to take the advice at the end to heart.
There's nothing in it for him.
He's too full of himself.
This "definitive" list of Trump's racist speech and actions is a bit out of date:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html
Quote from: Daverz on October 15, 2020, 07:07:05 AM
This "definitive" list of Trump's racist speech and actions is a bit out of date:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html
Well, he's been quite the busy bigot.
Thanks for the genuine response this time, Herman.
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2020, 11:28:05 PM
Nope. He and his dad had a whites only policy in their housing projects. They were prosecutes for this apartheid.
I looked up an article...
https://www.npr.org/2016/09/29/495955920/donald-trump-plagued-by-decades-old-housing-discrimination-case
this one is waaaay before my time, 14 years before I was born lol :P
It was settled with no admission of guilt... but the biggest problem, from reading this article, is that everything is just allegations. Maybe it's out there, but I didn't see any actual evidence that Donald himself (and not his dad) specifically told them to not rent to black people. Not saying he didn't, just that I don't see the evidence.
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2020, 11:28:05 PM
And then there were the Central Park Five, a piece of New York History you have been alerted to previously and obviously you did not do the research because you have no interest in finding out Trump is just an irredeemingly bad guy. Five black young dudes were accused of aggravated assault on a woman jogger. Trump took out big ads in the papers saying the five black kids should get the death penalty. At some point somevbody else confessed to the crime. Trump continued his campaign for killing those five kids. Even to this day he has not recanted. He's still angry those kids did not get killed.
Is that a good summary? It's a massive story, looking into it isn't exactly something I'm looking forward to...
But if we were to go off of just that, there's just the obvious question of, how do people know he acted that way because they were black?
Of course, from that alone, it shows he isn't really a good guy, and I never said he was, either...
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2020, 11:28:05 PM
As to race Trump lives way before the civil rights movement when white man could talk about black men as cattle.
Not sure how this bit is relevant. Does this apply to other old people (like Biden)?
The civil rights movement was between his age of 8 and 22, I wouldn't personally say that being 7 right before the civil rights movement starts would be "way before".
Maybe that's just me nitpicking...
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2020, 11:28:05 PM
that awful couple in St Louis who pointed their guns at protesters walking by.
Such a bad take IMO...
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 15, 2020, 04:37:42 AM
and why would he read from a script that he disagrees with? Almost always because he has recently made an egregiously racist comment likely to offend people he considers potential supporters.
Wait, I thought his supporters were supposed to be racists?...
(the potential supporters of yesterday are the supporters of today)
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 15, 2020, 04:37:42 AM
Is there anything he can possibly do or say that would convince people he isn't a white supremacist?[/color] There's nothing he could say to anyone who has paid attention to his public speech over the last three decades. You should try that maybe—paying attention.
Then I wonder why the debate moderator asked him to condemn the white supremacists? Shouldn't he just embrace it?
Quote from: Daverz on October 15, 2020, 07:07:05 AM
This "definitive" list of Trump's racist speech and actions is a bit out of date:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html
That's paywalled but I read a similar article with every allegation.
Anyways, the question is, what is the standard for being "for sure" a white supremacist?
If it is just a pattern of questionable things, you could make a case of that for a lot of people. Even Biden.
It helps for the person to have a long, active career where many scandals go on because of the amount of things they are involved with increases. So later every one of them can be used against them.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-busing-incarceration-racial-justice-democratic-primary-2020-explained.html
https://www.leftvoice.org/joe-biden-is-a-racist-who-loves-police-brutality
DC Circuit vacates earlier 3-judge ruling & agrees to rehear en banc (for a second time!) the U.S. House of Representatives' lawsuit to enforce its subpoena against Trump's former White House Counsel Don McGahn.
Quote from: greg on October 15, 2020, 08:11:34 AM
Wait, I thought his supporters were supposed to be racists?...
Then I wonder why the debate moderator asked him to condemn the white supremacists? Shouldn't he just embrace it?
Not all of his potential supporters are racists, and the racists alone don't have the number of votes he needs.
Did you miss the fact that Trump did not condemn white supremacists when asked about it in the debate? And that his response to the question became a tee-shirt slogan for a white supremacist hate group by the next day?
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 15, 2020, 09:26:42 AM
Not all of his potential supporters are racists, and the racists alone don't have the number of votes he needs.
I'm glad you think that, because that is correct. However, some people don't seem to think that, I believe it was Daverz who said that all of his supporters are racists.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 15, 2020, 09:26:42 AM
Did you miss the fact that Trump did not condemn white supremacists when asked about it in the debate? And that his response to the question became a tee-shirt slogan for a white supremacist hate group by the next day?
Omg, ok, I thought we were moving on from this, but maybe you didn't catch the news or what I posted on here about that...
first of all, he didn't know who the Proud Boys were, second of all, they aren't a white supremacist hate group, I posted the link to the interview with the leader and listened to the whole thing, third of all in the debate he asked specifically which group and the moderator told him about that group which he didn't know about but pretended to know, and the next day he condemned white supremacists, but I guess that isn't enough for you? So if he doesn't condemn all of them, on the spot, without getting sidetracked, that's bad? But I thought it doesn't matter if he condemns them or not because without a doubt, he is one of them, and nothing can convince people otherwise, so why should that even matter?
Quote from: greg on October 15, 2020, 08:11:34 AM
Anyways, the question is, what is the standard for being "for sure" a white supremacist?
If it is just a pattern of questionable things, you could make a case of that for a lot of people. Even Biden.
Well, that's easy.
The birther thing.
Trump got political traction because of his idea that Obama, being black, could not really be American, and thus no president.
Trump's idea of Americanness is completely white and pref of Northern European extraction.
A week ago (?) he was at a Minnesota rally talking to the crowd about his and their "good genes", meaning European forefathers. That in itself is white supremacist talk.
And all this crap (except of course the birther thing) goes back decades in Trump's life, he's never been different, it just gets worse with wear.
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 09:48:47 AM
Trump got political traction because of his idea that Obama, being black, could not really be American, and thus no president.
"Being black, could not really be American"
ummm what? I don't get this at all, is there anyone at all who think this? That doesn't make any sense at all.
I can imagine this being applied to a white or black person who grew up in China, not a black person who grew up in the US, just what? This seems incomplete... ???
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 09:48:47 AM
A week ago (?) he was at a Minnesota rally talking to the crowd about his and their "good genes", meaning European forefathers. That in itself is white supremacist talk.
"You have good genes in Minnesota..."
This is probably less of a leap than anything I've seen so far, but he doesn't say "white" specifically... there's plenty of non-white people in Minnesota... if you want to make it a case for strong suspicion, then fine, but there's still going to be some room for doubt.
Quote from: greg on October 15, 2020, 10:28:47 AM
"Being black, could not really be American"
ummm what? I don't get this at all, is there anyone at all who think this? That doesn't make any sense at all.
I can imagine this being applied to a white or black person who grew up in China, not a black person who grew up in the US, just what? This seems incomplete... ???
Like I said, it's as if you were boorn five minutes ago, or arrived from another planet.
It's rather tempting to think you're just putting us on.
The birther thing was inescapable, it was everywhere, and it was the major motor of Trump's rise to success in 2015-16.
I am not going to waste anymore time trying to enlighten somebody steeped in ignorance.
Folks who've got to live with bad decisions: Fox News veterans face a hurdle in the job market: Having Fox on the résumé
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 10:42:52 AM
Like I said, it's as if you were boorn five minutes ago, or arrived from another planet.
It's rather tempting to think you're just putting us on.
The birther thing was inescapable, it was everywhere, and it was the major motor of Trump's rise to success in 2015-16.
I am not going to waste anymore time trying to enlighten somebody steeped in ignorance.
His pride in his ignorance is an index of his ginormous intellect.
The South Carolina Senate race is effectively a dead heat; the Democrat leads in the Georgia special election Senate race by almost 8 points (though that's far shy of the 50 percent needed to avoid a runoff), while the other Senate race is within the margin of error.
It is stunning for those who have followed politics over the past few decades to think a Democratic president could win Georgia and three Democrats could be elected to the Senate from two deep-red states. That Georgia is even competitive presents a gobsmacking problem for Trump given that former vice president Joe Biden does not need it to win the presidency, nor does the Democratic Party need any of those three seats to win the Senate majority.
We are talking about these states and some other red states because Biden is comfortably ahead in the states he really does need to win (Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania). Biden is narrowly ahead (within the margin of error) in Iowa, Florida, Arizona and North Carolina. Democratic Senate candidates have small leads in the North Carolina and Iowa races and a bigger one in the Arizona race.
Quote from: greg on October 15, 2020, 09:47:07 AM
I'm glad you think that, because that is correct. However, some people don't seem to think that, I believe it was Daverz who said that all of his supporters are racists.
Omg, ok, I thought we were moving on from this, but maybe you didn't catch the news or what I posted on here about that...
first of all, he didn't know who the Proud Boys were, second of all, they aren't a white supremacist hate group, I posted the link to the interview with the leader and listened to the whole thing, third of all in the debate he asked specifically which group and the moderator told him about that group which he didn't know about but pretended to know, and the next day he condemned white supremacists, but I guess that isn't enough for you? So if he doesn't condemn all of them, on the spot, without getting sidetracked, that's bad? But I thought it doesn't matter if he condemns them or not because without a doubt, he is one of them, and nothing can convince people otherwise, so why should that even matter?
Okay, you've convinced me: I said even the dimmest of Trump's supporters could pick up when he's expressing his own views and when he's walking back a statement he's afraid to stand by. Clearly I was wrong.
Quote from: greg on October 15, 2020, 09:47:07 AM
I'm glad you think that, because that is correct. However, some people don't seem to think that, I believe it was Daverz who said that all of his supporters are racists.
I don't remember, but I might have said something like that. In 2020, either they are racists or are OK with the racism (and misogyny and xenophobia) for some reason (lower taxes! Owning the libs!) , which makes them racists in my book. But perhaps I missed the category of the willfully obtuse.
Quote
first of all, he didn't know who the Proud Boys
Bullshit.
Quote from: Daverz on October 15, 2020, 12:18:02 PM
I don't remember, but I might have said something like that. In 2020, either they are racists or are OK with the racism (and misogyny and xenophobia) for some reason (lower taxes! Owning the libs!) , which makes them racists in my book. But perhaps I missed the category of the willfully obtuse.
Bullshit.
He didn't know who David Duke is, either. Nor ever worked with Michael Flynn.
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 10:42:52 AM
Like I said, it's as if you were boorn five minutes ago, or arrived from another planet.
It's rather tempting to think you're just putting us on.
The birther thing was inescapable, it was everywhere, and it was the major motor of Trump's rise to success in 2015-16.
I am not going to waste anymore time trying to enlighten somebody steeped in ignorance.
I know what the birther movement was. Maybe some people who were for the movement were racists, but that doesn't mean he supported getting his birth certificate "because he's black."
I also don't know who would equate black to being non-American? I've never heard that idea thrown around in my life despite where I grew up...
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 15, 2020, 11:46:56 AM
Okay, you've convinced me: I said even the dimmest of Trump's supporters could pick up when he's expressing his own views and when he's walking back a statement he's afraid to stand by. Clearly I was wrong.
And now you too are just throwing insults instead of acknowledging my point. You didn't even check if the Proud Boys were actually white supremacists.
And no, I shouldn't have to "pick up" anything. That's my standard of proof, it should be clear. "Picking up" is interpretation, interpretation is subject to personal bias.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 15, 2020, 10:48:31 AM
His pride in his ignorance is an index of his ginormous intellect.
And you have nothing to say but insults, as always.
Quote from: Daverz on October 15, 2020, 12:18:02 PM
Bullshit.
"I don't know who the Proud Boys are. You'll have to give me a definition because I really don't know who they are. I can only say they have to stand down and let law enforcement do their work," Trump told reporters at the White House.
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-09-30/trump-i-dont-know-who-the-proud-boys-are
So I guess this is scripted?
So anything that is scripted and sounds favorable to him is supposed to be believed, everything else is supposed to be viewed in a negative light?
Judiciary Committee sets vote on Barrett confirmation for October 22 (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amy-coney-barrett-confirmation-vote-october-22/)
I wonder if she'll make it through?
"Maybe I'm immune. I don't know"
And, from the Department of the super-obvious: Using the Justice Department as the Trump family's personal law firm is unconstitutional.
The U.S. government can't sue someone just for making Melania Trump look bad (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/10/15/melania-trump-book-lawsuit/)
"The imaginary nontroversy that Biden would duck Trump dominated the news coverage in conservative media at times despite the Biden campaign's repeated and crystal-clear statements to the contrary.
So the people who get news from these outlets had to have been floored when the news came that it was the other way around: Donald Trump is cowering at the prospect of meeting Joe Biden on the debate stage after getting so thoroughly schlonged in the first contest.
Isn't it ironic. Like rain on your wedding day."
The Trump Recession slogs on: US jobless claims highest since August
Quote from: greg on October 15, 2020, 12:31:43 PM
And no, I shouldn't have to "pick up" anything. That's my standard of proof, it should be clear. "Picking up" is interpretation, interpretation is subject to personal bias.
What's going on reminds me of this:
QuoteThe horn effect, closely related to the halo effect, is a form of cognitive bias that causes one's perception of another to be unduly influenced by a single negative trait.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_effect
QuoteSplitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)
A "single" negative trait...?
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 15, 2020, 04:36:59 PM
A "single" negative trait...?
He sure has more than a single one, but I could easily imagine they wouldn't be nearly such a big deal if he ran as a Democrat (which supposedly he used to be).
What's telling is that he had to become a Republican to find a path to political power, as the Democrats, whatever other faults they may have, still don't tolerate the equivalent of Tea Party or QAnon craziness in their elected officials. Can you point to any D like that on the other side of the aisle which justifies you saying "wouldn't be nearly such a big deal if he ran as a Democrat"?
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 15, 2020, 05:17:50 PM
What's telling is that he had to become a Republican to find a path to political power, as the Democrats, whatever other faults they may have, still don't tolerate the equivalent of Tea Party or QAnon craziness in their elected officials.
If you want to look at it that way, go ahead. It still seems like you are starting that train of thought with the assumption that he is white supremacist, leading to a circle thought (which I saw in another post on the last page I think, but didn't point it out). "He is racist, therefore he had to join the party people associate with racism, which proves he's racist."
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 15, 2020, 05:17:50 PM
Can you point to any D like that on the other side of the aisle which justifies you saying "wouldn't be nearly such a big deal if he ran as a Democrat"?
Yeah, like I mentioned about Biden's quotes/criticisms, I don't see the mainstream media building a narrative that he is a racist based on them.
It does seem the more hardcore progressives would have that criticism, though, and probably wouldn't be the type to vote for him, anyways.
Trump lacks sufficient impulse control to engage in a debate like an adult. Or even answer an uncomfortable question without trying to talk over the questioner.
If I were Biden, I would refuse the third debate unless it could be agreed that the other side's microphone is turned off while one side is answering a question. Otherwise the third debate will be another farce.
I really, really hope that this dark chapter in our history is almost over. And that Trump keeps one promise: that he will disappear completely if he loses.
Quote from: Zeus on October 15, 2020, 05:48:57 PM
Trump lacks sufficient impulse control to engage in a debate like an adult. Or even answer an uncomfortable question without trying to talk over the questioner.
If I were Biden, I would refuse the third debate unless it could be agreed that the other side's microphone is turned off while one side is answering a question. Otherwise the third debate will be another farce.
I really, really hope that this dark chapter in our history is almost over. And that Trump keeps one promise: that he will disappear completely if he loses.
He didn't mean that "promise," He doesn't admit the possibility that he will lose. To be a loser is his chief hatred.
I guess denouncing it yet again tonight isn't good enough, even if it's off script.
Reminds me of church... are you really saved? Pray like at least 5 different time throughout the course of several years to make sure, try to be sincere, but you'll never really be 100% sure because it's someone else silently judging you lol
Virtually all Trump's statements are bald-faced lies.
So it's easy for him to say he 'rejects white supremacism.'
White supremacists watching knows what he means.
He means: 'I need to win the election so as to Make America White Again.'
That's why his denunciations are always heavily qualified.
Here's the NYT fact checker:
"Asked during the September presidential debate to condemn white supremacist and militia groups, Mr. Trump said "sure, I'm willing" but did not outright denounce them. "I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing," he said as Mr. Biden and the moderator, Chris Wallace, pressed for a condemnation."
Last night I believe Trump, asked again, went into a both-sider, sort of the negative equivalent of "good people on both sides," briefly saying he had denounced white supremacists, and then launching into a lotta stuff about Antifa and "the people on the left that are burning down our cities that are run by Democrats" getting more and more into it, overshadowing the statement about the white supremacists, because he clearly doesn't feel it's his job to say that.
Crazy Uncle is not president of the United States, but of White America.
Shares of gun makers gain as Biden's lead grows (https://in.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-guns-stocks/shares-of-gun-makers-gain-as-bidens-lead-grows-idUSKBN2711KD)
It might be a one time shot.
His bullshit never passes the laugh test:
"I know nothing about [Qanon]," Trump said. "I do know they are very much against pedophilia. They fight it very hard."
Which is it? "I know nothing about it" or "I do know they are very much against pedophilia. They fight it very hard"?
"On the masks, you have two stories," Trump said, claiming falsely that most people who wear masks contract the virus.
I was shocked to find out that Republicans were setting up illegal ballot drop boxes in California! Have they been taken down yet and hopefully the ballots therein confiscated and given to the appropriate voting authorities?
Other news: President Trump nominated for Nobel prize. ???
The president has continued to predict that the virus will soon disappear, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 11:35:14 PM
Virtually all Trump's statements are bald-faced lies.
So it's easy for him to say he 'rejects white supremacism.'
White supremacists watching knows what he means.
He means: 'I need to win the election so as to Make America White Again.'
Utterly paranoid view.
Only white supremacists and paranoid people would interpret MAGA that way. Normal people don't. Not his fault if people interpret it in a weird way.
Is the US more white than it was in 2016? He would be a miserable failure in that regard, so why even vote for him for that reason if that is your thing? And the new slogan "Keep America Great" doesn't even align with that if he hasn't made America more white in the first place. "Keep American White..." huh?
Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
"Asked during the September presidential debate to condemn white supremacist and militia groups, Mr. Trump said "sure, I'm willing" but did not outright denounce them. "I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing," he said as Mr. Biden and the moderator, Chris Wallace, pressed for a condemnation."
"Sure, I'm willing," isn't good enough? Does he have to bow on the ground and cry? And why do that if people refuse to believe him anyways? ??? :P
"Independent of any specific answer, Trump's ranting, bellicose and opaque responses only cemented the impression he gave in the first debate. "Crazy uncle" actually is not too far off the mark. It is tiresome to listen to the same lies, the same evasions, the same self-reverential proclamations. He has nothing new to say, just more whackadoodle accusations and insults. He is now equal parts repugnant and boring."
Trump fared even worse in the comparison with Biden than he did in the first debate. Voters could literally turn the channel, tune out Trump's noise and histrionics in favor of a calm, logical, wonkish candidate who knows what he is talking about. Biden certainly must hope that is a metaphor for the choice facing voters.
The sad case of Ben Sasse (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/16/sad-case-ben-sasse/)
Was surprised to receive a *second envelope from my town's voting clerk yesterday. It included another return envelope along with a note saying that a small number of packets had been sent out with the wrong mailing address and to carefully check mine.
This too: https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/verify/verify-are-return-addresses-on-absentee-ballot-applications-left-blank/285-4c5514cb-bffd-4c0f-bca9-e621d5644664
*Thoughts of Chicago about "Vote often" went through my head when I saw the second envelope! ???
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 16, 2020, 07:29:51 AM
I was shocked to find out that Republicans were setting up illegal ballot drop boxes in California! Have they been taken down yet and hopefully the ballots therein confiscated and given to the appropriate voting authorities?
This story has been out there this week, and summoned to cease and desist, the CA GOP refused, in defiance of the law, figuring they can outrun the consequences.
Quote from: Herman on October 16, 2020, 08:10:51 AM
This story has been out there this week, and summoned to cease and desist, the CA GOP refused, in defiance of the law, figuring they can outrun the consequences.
I had heard that they had refused, but wondering if there was any further news. :( Thanks though.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 16, 2020, 08:58:44 AM
I had heard that they had refused, but wondering if there was any further news. :( Thanks though.
PD
Yup: that's the "Law & Order" GOP for you.
Kyle Kulinski sums himself up in a single tweet
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkeKg3JU0AEFTu2?format=jpg&name=small)
Well, this must have poor Trumpty's BVDs in a twist:
Town hall ratings: More people watched Biden on ABC than Trump on NBC, MSNBC and CNBC - CNN
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2020, 11:30:04 AM
Well, this must have poor Trumpty's BVDs in a twist:
Town hall ratings: More people watched Biden on ABC than Trump on NBC, MSNBC and CNBC - CNN
Not sure how I would interpret it though? Lots of undecided who wanted to hear Biden? Or maybe those who would vote for Pres. Trump already didn't bother to take the time?
I just read a news story re the GOP boxes in California: they'll be allowed, but with strict safeguards. https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/10/16/california-allows-republican-ballot-boxes-with-safeguards-1326076
Perhaps the Dems should try putting out there own?
PD
"One can certainly understand why Trumpworld is furious with Savannah Guthrie, moderator of NBC's Thursday town hall forum with the president in Miami.
Imagine coming on a major TV network in the closing weeks of a presidential campaign expecting to have an opportunity to present your version of things to the American people, only to face a questioner like Guthrie, with her persistent bias toward facts and truth.
SAD! as a certain president would say. And not just that, but a thoroughly bewildering experience for a poor fellow accustomed to the cosseted confines of Fox My Pillow TV."
"That was a retweet. That was an opinion of somebody. . . . I'll put it out there. People can decide for themselves," said the president, as though that somehow justified lending his office to that lunacy.
You can look at this one of two ways. Trump is either willing to indulge odious conspiratorialist nonsense for political reasons — adherents to that tinfoil-hat nuttiness see him as a hero — or he is not firmly enough moored in rationality to recognize wild-eyed idiocy.
Either way, it should trouble Americans deeply."
Well, and we see some here who find him a "hero."
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 16, 2020, 11:33:35 AM
Not sure how I would interpret it though? Lots of undecided who wanted to hear Biden? Or maybe those who would vote for Pres. Trump already didn't bother to take the time?
They don't like to see him anymore.
The first debate killed the idea Trump is fun to watch.
The "Right. Russia." think tank must be shrugging off the fresh news of Rudy Giuliani muckracking.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2020, 12:32:23 PM
The "Right. Russia." think tank must be shrugging off the fresh news of Rudy Giuliani muckracking.
What's going on with Rudy G.?
Making up his "Hunter Biden laptop" story as he goes along
[Giuliani's] latest gambit was a leak to the New York Post of questionably sourced materials that purport to come from a laptop that may or may not have belonged to Biden's son. I will not link to the story here, but you can find it if you are interested. Trump and his supporters are flogging it everywhere they can, and claiming they are being censored by skeptical social media companies trying to put the brakes on their efforts to spread what could well be misinformation.
Rudy Giuliani was once compared to Churchill. Now he acts like a shady Watergate goon. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/15/rudy-giuliani-was-once-our-churchill-now-he-acts-like-shady-watergate-goon/)
State Department signals it will keep most details of its spending at Trump's properties hidden until after election
The threats against Democratic governors prove Trump's rhetoric encourages violence
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2020, 01:01:47 PM
Making up his "Hunter Biden laptop" story as he goes along
[Giuliani's] latest gambit was a leak to the New York Post of questionably sourced materials that purport to come from a laptop that may or may not have belonged to Biden's son. I will not link to the story here, but you can find it if you are interested. Trump and his supporters are flogging it everywhere they can, and claiming they are being censored by skeptical social media companies trying to put the brakes on their efforts to spread what could well be misinformation.
Rudy Giuliani was once compared to Churchill. Now he acts like a shady Watergate goon. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/15/rudy-giuliani-was-once-our-churchill-now-he-acts-like-shady-watergate-goon/)
I used to admire him. :(
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 16, 2020, 01:05:39 PM
I used to admire him. :(
PD
There was a time when he was admirable.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 16, 2020, 07:29:51 AM
Other news: President Trump nominated for Nobel prize. ???
Trump's dream of a Nobel Peace Prize kept alive by far-flung foreign allies (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/10/09/trump-nobel-peace-prize-foreing-allies/)
[...]"Trump's unofficial, unorthodox quest for the prize has benefited from the help of far-flung foreign allies — including an anti-immigrant Norwegian politician and an Australian law professor best known for pro-monarchy campaigns — who ensure that he is nominated time and again.
Even prominent world leaders, including South Korea's Moon Jae-in, Britain's Boris Johnson and former Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe, have found themselves dragged into the effort.
This year, the White House itself released an official statement to announce that Trump had been nominated for the 2021 prize. The World Food Program was awarded the 2020 prize on Friday.
So far, Trump's campaign for recognition in Oslo has earned him plenty of headlines, but borne no other fruit.
Nobel trackers argue that the campaign of Trump and his supporters is doing him no favors. "Trump is so despised outside the U.S. that I cannot imagine the committee will spend any time on him at all," Fredrik Heffermehl, a Norwegian peace activist, wrote in an email Thursday"[...]
Quote from: JBS on October 16, 2020, 11:00:41 AM
Kyle Kulinski sums himself up in a single tweet
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkeKg3JU0AEFTu2?format=jpg&name=small)
Enjoy the pile-on in the comments:
https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1190737140688326656
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 16, 2020, 01:33:43 PM
Trump's dream of a Nobel Peace Prize kept alive by far-flung foreign allies (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/10/09/trump-nobel-peace-prize-foreing-allies/)
[...]"Trump's unofficial, unorthodox quest for the prize has benefited from the help of far-flung foreign allies — including an anti-immigrant Norwegian politician and an Australian law professor best known for pro-monarchy campaigns — who ensure that he is nominated time and again.
Even prominent world leaders, including South Korea's Moon Jae-in, Britain's Boris Johnson and former Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe, have found themselves dragged into the effort.
This year, the White House itself released an official statement to announce that Trump had been nominated for the 2021 prize. The World Food Program was awarded the 2020 prize on Friday.
So far, Trump's campaign for recognition in Oslo has earned him plenty of headlines, but borne no other fruit.
Nobel trackers argue that the campaign of Trump and his supporters is doing him no favors. "Trump is so despised outside the U.S. that I cannot imagine the committee will spend any time on him at all," Fredrik Heffermehl, a Norwegian peace activist, wrote in an email Thursday"[...]
Enjoy the pile-on in the comments:
https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1190737140688326656
Thank you for the info. I had read, earlier, about a 'far-right Norwegian politician" being involved. I had seen something on the news with him talking about being nominated for three different categories.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 16, 2020, 02:18:27 PM
Thank you for the info. I had read, earlier, about a 'far-right Norwegian politician" being involved. I had seen something on the news with him talking about being nominated for three different categories.
PD
I haven't heard that (Literature? Medicine?). He might have meant he's pushed some people to put his name forward for the Peace prize three times now.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 16, 2020, 02:24:00 PM
I haven't heard that (Literature? Medicine?). He might have meant he's pushed some people to put his name forward for the Peace prize three times now.
Hi.
I found this...not certain of the accuracy. https://nypost.com/2020/09/29/donald-trump-gets-third-nomination-for-nobel-peace-prize/
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 16, 2020, 01:05:39 PM
I used to admire him. :(
PD
Skip to the 37-minute mark and this "fraudulent non-event" is the topic: https://begtodiffer.thebulwark.com/home-stretch
I hope the Trump nightmare will be over soon. Sadly, the impact of his corruption will last decades.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 16, 2020, 02:53:20 PM
I hope the Trump nightmare will be over soon. Sadly, the impact of his corruption will last decades.
Yes, and dealing with the Trumpkins among us will be ongoing, as well.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 16, 2020, 02:53:20 PM
I hope the Trump nightmare will be over soon. Sadly, the impact of his corruption will last decades.
They will also have locked in a 6-3 wingnut hack majority on the Supreme Court and packed the Federal courts with hundreds of more wingnut hacks. For the next 30 years. Not just Roe and the ACA are at stake, but also voting rights, worker rights, consumer rights, and the whole administrative state: EPA, FDA, etc. More dirty air to breathe, more lead in your water, more E. Coli in your food, and of course, no action on climate change or other existential threats.
Assuming Democrats take the Senate, I don't have much faith that the Senate Democrats will have the courage to reform the courts. Without that, they really can't accomplish much. But to give you an ideal of where their heads are at, DiFi still wants to bring back blue slips:
https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ContentRecord_id=FC72B8F3-0853-4168-959D-B1C9A237BD31
And, assuming again that Democrats can take control of the Senate, they may only have a 2 year window to fix things before control returns to the Republicans. Rinse, repeat.
The whole idea of a Constitution forever etched in stone like the Tables of the Law is foreign to many non-Americans. France has had 5 different constitutions since 1789. Other countires change theirs as need be, too.
And to think that US Supreme Court judges have a 'literalist' approach to interpreting the constitution boggles the mind. The SCOTUS these days appear more like a gang of druids trying to make sense of runic inscriptions or cabalistic signs. Their relevance to today's society is close to zero.
Quote from: André on October 16, 2020, 04:48:18 PM
The whole idea of a Constitution forever etched in stone like the Tables of the Law is foreign to many non-Americans. France has had 5 different constitutions since 1789. Other countires change theirs as need be, too.
And to think that US Supreme Court judges have a 'literalist' approach to interpreting the constitution boggles the mind. The SCOTUS these days appear more like a gang of druids trying to make sense of runic inscriptions or cabalistic signs. Their relevance to today's society is close to zero.
Andre – I wholeheartedly agree. Every generation has a responsibility to think for themselves.
People in the US seem to think of the U.S. Constitution as some holy scripture. In fact, it is a document with strengths and weaknesses, like many others. Parts of it (cough, second amendment, cough) are idiotic.
Quote from: Daverz on October 16, 2020, 03:47:51 PMThey will also have locked in a 6-3 wingnut hack majority on the Supreme Court and packed the Federal courts with hundreds of more wingnut hacks. For the next 30 years. Not just Roe and the ACA are at stake, but also voting rights, worker rights, consumer rights, and the whole administrative state: EPA, FDA, etc. More dirty air to breathe, more lead in your water, more E. Coli in your food, and of course, no action on climate change or other existential threats.
Excellent outcomes all.
Quote from: André on October 16, 2020, 04:48:18 PM
The whole idea of a Constitution forever etched in stone like the Tables of the Law is foreign to many non-Americans. France has had 5 different constitutions since 1789. Other countires change theirs as need be, too.
And to think that US Supreme Court judges have a 'literalist' approach to interpreting the constitution boggles the mind. The SCOTUS these days appear more like a gang of druids trying to make sense of runic inscriptions or cabalistic signs. Their relevance to today's society is close to zero.
Quote from: Zeus on October 16, 2020, 04:54:17 PM
Andre – I wholeheartedly agree. Every generation has a responsibility to think for themselves.
People in the US seem to think of the U.S. Constitution as some holy scripture. In fact, it is a document with strengths and weaknesses, like many others. Parts of it (cough, second amendment, cough) are idiotic.
Variants of such sentiments date to at least the 1830s. The 2020s will be different.
Quote from: Zeus on October 16, 2020, 04:54:17 PM
Andre – I wholeheartedly agree. Every generation has a responsibility to think for themselves.
People in the US seem to think the U.S. Constitution is some holy scripture. In fact, it is a document with strengths and weaknesses like anything else. Parts of it (cough, second amendment, cough) are idiotic.
Well, the only mechanism for wholesale modification of the US Constitution is a Constitutional Convention. You can imagine how that would be monkeyed with by plutocrats, religious nuts, and corporations.
Even the amendment process is impossible in the current context as it requires 2/3 majorities in both the House and Senate and ratification by 3/4 of the states.
Dems have to pack the courts. BRing it up to 15.
Quote from: Dowder on October 16, 2020, 09:10:01 PM
Some guy from Canada mentioned France having five constitutions since 1789 like that is a good thing. I'll take American stability over French instability any day.
Probably comes from a worldview where there are no higher principles for anything and everything is subject to change with whatever flavor the crowd is into at the moment.
Yeah, no thanks.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 16, 2020, 09:03:18 PM
Dems have to pack the courts. BRing it up to 15.
The SC reform I like is 18 year terms staggered by 2 years. Make it retroactive based on seniority. This would allow every president to appoint 2 justices in every term. That prevents gaming the court by appointing the youngest hacks you can find to ideologically lock in the court for decades.
But the whole federal judiciary needs reform and that gets a bit too wonky for me to follow as yet.
Quote from: André on October 16, 2020, 04:48:18 PM
France has had 5 different constitutions since 1789.
They also had 4 revolutions (and 2 civil wars within 2 of them) 2 coups, 2 empires, 2 monarchies, 1 French State and 5 republics. ;D
...and yet, there it is, la France éternelle.
Quote from: Washington Post
[...]"Trump's unofficial, unorthodox quest for the prize has benefited from the help of far-flung foreign allies — including an anti-immigrant Norwegian politician and an Australian law professor best known for pro-monarchy campaigns
Well, Australia
is a monarchy and most Australians don't seem to bother much about it, so his position is nothing extraordinary. It would have been worth noting had he been campaiging for a republic. :)
Quote from: ritter on October 17, 2020, 12:13:03 AM
...and yet, there it is, la France éternelle.
You mean this, right?
https://www.contreculture.org/AT%20France%20%E9ternelle.html (https://www.contreculture.org/AT%20France%20%E9ternelle.html)
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 16, 2020, 09:03:18 PM
Dems have to pack the courts. BRing it up to 15.
It is refreshing to see someone so brazenly and unabashedly partisan as to openly endorse the idea that SCOTUS must be comprised of the proper number of "liberal" justices. Impartiality is a mirage; judges must adhere to the proper ideology.
If Dems pack the courts, the next time Republicans get the chance, they must begin to limit jurisdiction.
It is funny to me how the US Constitution and associated laws make it extremely difficult to introduce even minor reforms to the system of choosing federal judges but relatively easy to strip the courts of the power of judicial review (iirc all you'd need is an act of congress, which does have to have been through judicial review itself, but that review can legally be done by the house & senate judiciary committees I think). Like it's a very obvious loophole, and one that congress has failed to close mostly because they're terrified of having to actually pass any laws. This is on both parties incidentally.
Elected Democrats are looking forward to having a conservative supreme court so that they can continue to have an excuse to not pass any laws: we can't do it, because the Supreme Court wouldn't approve. (Until ~2018, elected Republicans had the same excuse. I think now their excuse is something about how the deep state is drinking the blood of children to gain superpowers, thereby preventing them from passing any laws, but not 100% sure on that.) Democratic voters right now want to pack the courts, or impeach all the Trump-appointed justices, or whatever, and seemingly have yet to come to terms with the fact that that will never happen and their elected officials like things the way they are. I'm not sure what they will do if they figure it out. Assume go back to brunch and stop following politics.
Quote from: amw on October 17, 2020, 04:39:10 AMDemocratic voters right now want to pack the courts, or impeach all the Trump-appointed justices, or whatever, and seemingly have yet to come to terms with the fact that that will never happen and their elected officials like things the way they are.
To be fair, it is mostly more "progressive" Dems who clamor for such bold action. More serious Dems know it will not happen, nor will it ever happen, and most Dems do, in fact, very much like the existing duopoly. The Trump era is merely a more sensationalized version of what came before.
Quote from: Todd on October 17, 2020, 04:46:15 AMThe Trump era is merely a more sensationalized version of what came before.
Yes!It has been four years of the same old oligarchic status quo with crazy tweets and record level of incompetence. Biden's presidency will remove the crazy tweets and in some sense "restore sanity", but the oligarchic status quo will continue as it has for decades. I have lost all my hopes for the US and I have accepted the miserable fact that the rest of my life will be about watching the US destroy this beautiful planet because of greed.
That's why I am trying to distance myself from US politics and I'm trying to concentrate on more comforting things: Learning Japanese, listening to/making music, science etc. I have already wasted too much of my life on this ashtonishingly moronic country I have previously admired because of some awesome movies (cultural dominance) and my own ignorance, but Steven Spielberg being the best director ever doesn't mean the US is a country to be admired as a whole. Trump's bullhorn presidency has made that very very clear. I have Trump to thank for opening my eyes finally. There where a lot of hints long before Trump, but he made me connect the dots.
Maybe this is why other civilizations don't visit us? Civilizations destroy themselves before developing technologically on the level of being able to do long distance space travel using worm holes or bending spacetime. Every civilization has had it's own "USA" to destroy everything. What if quantum physics prohibits "rosy" futures for some reason? The US has to destroy our civilization before it can do long distance space travel? Is that it or what is this about?
Quote from: 71 dB on October 17, 2020, 05:35:33 AMMaybe this is why other civilizations don't visit us? Civilizations destroy themselves before developing technologically on the level of being able to do long distance space travel using worm holes or bending spacetime. Every civilization has had it's own "USA" to destroy everything. What if quantum physics prohibits "rosy" futures for some reason? The US has to destroy our civilization before it can do long distance space travel? Is that it or what is this about?
WTF
Callanan wrote a memo that went to a select group of investors and hedge fund managers, touching off a Wall Street version of Whisper Down the Lane. One investor's response to hearing about the memo, according to the Times, was that it was cause to "short everything," that is, bet that the stock market on the whole would dive. By Feb. 26, the market was down some 300 points from its high the previous week, and those who had used the opportunity to short-sell stocks were already counting their profits.
The swamp became a cesspool (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/10/16/opinion/swamp-became-cesspool/)
Quote from: Florestan on October 17, 2020, 12:00:27 AM
They also had 4 revolutions (and 2 civil wars within 2 of them) 2 coups, 2 empires, 2 monarchies, 1 French State and 5 republics. ;D
Well, thanks for proving my point !
;)
The Biden campaign has been understandably reluctant to respond, for fear of giving the story legitimacy. Still, Biden has said his son made a mistake. Family friends say the vice president is reluctant to publicly criticize Hunter Biden further, but they stress that both Bidens have learned the painful lesson that a president's children should stay away from international business. Would that the Trump family recognized that rule.
The truth behind the Hunter Biden non-scandal (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-truth-behind-the-hunter-biden-non-scandal/2020/10/16/798210bc-0fd1-11eb-8074-0e943a91bf08_story.html)
Feinstein's Senate role is at issue as Democrats fume over her committee performance (https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-10-16/supreme-court-hearing-heightens-democrats-concerns-about-feinstein)
Dem infighting will bring many chuckles in the next few years.
Here's to hoping Dem firebrands bring down a confirmed member of the US Gerontocracy. (She's 87 years young, amiright?) I do kind of hope that she runs again in 2024, because few things bring more hope for the future then seeing nonagenarians hold office.
The Art of the Deal ROFLMAO
Trump's entreaty was addressed to suburban women, or, as he has previously called them, "housewives." To his plea to be liked, he added this justification: "I saved your damn neighborhood, okay? The other thing, I don't have that much time to be that nice."
It's a wonder Trump's manifold charms aren't working on women. Who among them wouldn't swipe right on this profile?
Trump and Republicans have played a neat trick these past four years, claiming to act on behalf of the economically and politically disenfranchised, and then getting them to turn a blind eye to the fact that their own actions in office are designed to line the pockets of elite supporters. But as the coronavirus pandemic continues to claim victims and disrupt lives, the evidence of Trump's perfidy is harder than ever to ignore. Little wonder some turn to outlandish conspiracies such as QAnon to justify their continued belief in Trump. As crazy as it is, it's less embarrassing than admitting you are just another patsy in Trump's lifelong con. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/16/why-wont-trump-supporters-admit-theyve-been-conned/)
Quote from: Zeus on October 17, 2020, 10:54:50 AM
I am encouraged that both my former (GA) and my current (NC) state could turn "blue" this year:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/
Having said that, I am very pessimistic about US politics in the next year (or two, or three). Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats know what they're doing – and reversing Trump's dumb policies only takes you so far. I prefer the Dems because they seem to know they don't know what they're doing, and because when in doubt they prefer to err on the side of kindness.
But, the country is in a helluva mess, made worse recently, and there are no easy answers. And too much glib acceptance of inertia. Sometimes a country must be thoroughly humiliated before it becomes open to change. I'm not sure the US is there yet.
Run of the mill vapidity.
One last vote: In Michigan, a terminally ill man's mission to cast a ballot (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/one-last-vote/2020/10/16/785419e4-0fd4-11eb-b1e8-16b59b92b36d_story.html)
Joni Ernst is now in trouble. Trump is a huge part of her problem. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/joni-ernst-is-now-in-trouble-trump-is-a-huge-part-of-her-problem/2020/09/28/32f7ec62-01c5-11eb-a2db-417cddf4816a_story.html)
Quote from: Todd on October 17, 2020, 10:58:29 AM
Run of the mill vapidity.
Point taken. I will aspire to your exceptional vapidity.
To make things a little bit less depressing here's a bit of political humour:
Kyle Kulinski calls Amy Coney Barrett "Waffle Coney." ;D
Quote from: Zeus on October 17, 2020, 01:54:13 PM
Point taken. I will aspire to your exceptional vapidity.
Excellent. I await your next post with alacrity.
Quote from: Dowder on October 16, 2020, 09:05:12 PM
..... and you call Trump dangerous. ::)
Trump has packed the court with rightwingnuts that you support and McConnell obstructed all throughout the Obama presidency. Fools like you seem to think that's ok.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 17, 2020, 08:56:11 PM
Trump has packed the court with rightwingnuts that you support and McConnell obstructed all throughout the Obama presidency. Fools like you seem to think that's ok.
Yeah. I can'tunderstand how people think those right wing nuts will make their life easier/better unless you are an oligarch yourself. "Waffle Coney" has for example tricked workers out of overtime pay forcing arbitration, which ALWAYS favors the employer. Do you want to be paid for overtime or work for free? If you want to be paid you should want as left leaning justices as possible, but then again what do I care? If Americans want to get screwed that's on them... ::)
They definitely want to get screwed.
Quote from: André on October 17, 2020, 06:56:24 AM
Well, thanks for proving my point !
;)
Don't know what was your point. Mine is that France was the most politically unstable country in Europe, except Spain which is in a league of her own in this respect. :D
Quote from: Herman on October 18, 2020, 03:42:27 AM
They definitely want to get screwed.
I think many Americans don't even know what it's like to not get screwed. It's so normal for them to get screwed in everything. :-\
One of the reasons I am no longer a conservative is because many believe there is a great silent majority. This is a myth. There is no such thing as a great silent majority. I have learned that the United States (and I am sure probably most nations) are a collection of minorities.
I know of many conservatives who actually believe most Americans are just like them and the election system in the United States is rigged. They have believed this for years. So when Trump claims that the election is rigged he is reinforcing something that many conservatives believe. I actually know some conservatives who do not believe they are suppressing the vote but leveling the playing field. The actually believe that if the elections were fair they would always win. I know of a few conservatives who understand this and they are frustrated that so many Republicans buy into this myth. As a result they have left the party.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 17, 2020, 08:56:11 PM
Trump has packed the court with rightwingnuts that you support and McConnell obstructed all throughout the Obama presidency. Fools like you seem to think that's ok.
Except Trump has not packed the court. The phrase and concept eludes many/most/all lefties. Trump and McConnell have followed constitutionally and statutorily prescribed processes to fill judicial vacancies. McConnell arrived at a novel approach to blocking a SCOTUS nominee in 2016, so now nominees can get either Borked or Garlanded when they get screwed over for purely political reasons.
Packing the court is when sore loser lefties - and it is always sore loser lefties - attempt to use legislative means to increase the number of justices to meet a preferred outcome - a majority. FDR tried this in the 30s when the mean old justices then on the bench disagreed with his executive branch power grab. Even he failed. (There is some question whether he really wanted to succeed, or if he just wanted a more pliable court, which he ended up with.) Lefties want to do it again today. Lefties
are sore losers. And they are hilariously inept. Ro Khanna and assorted Dem hangers-on are engaging in a silly attempt to legislatively limit SCOTUS justice terms. Apparently, Khanna and crew forgot to read the actual Constitution. Either that, or they do know the Constitution and are merely grandstanding. I guess that would make them cynical. Hmm. (Best case from a lefty standpoint is that they are wishful thinkers since the premise of the legislation is that SCOTUS justices be reassigned to lower courts, thereby adhering to the good behavior clause. Good luck on that one.)
But let's play a fun game. If Dems succeed under a Super-Creepy 46 administration, and pack the court, a future Republican government will have several avenues to limit the damage the unelected body can do. They could pack the court again, bringing it to an unruly size, rendering even procedural decisions unnecessarily difficult. That would be a good outcome. They could limit appellate jurisdiction. That would definitely be a good outcome. They could limit SCOTUS session lengths. That could be nearly paralyzing in some instances, resulting in conflicting lower court rulings on various matters. That would be a delightful outcome. This would all be made much, much easier if Dems abolish the legislative filibuster.
So it would be a very good thing if Dems sweep in a couple weeks, eliminate the legislative filibuster, and pack the court.
Go Dems!
Quote from: Todd on October 18, 2020, 05:51:31 AM
So it would be a very good thing if Dems sweep in a couple weeks, eliminate the legislative filibuster, and pack the court.
Go Dems!
Progress is partially reversed during an era like this one, but we won't go all the way to Confederate family values. The fight over the judicial branch is only one battlefield, one that Repubs fight on to keep Lost Cause 2.0 alive. On this view Dems should shake things up, packing everything, fully understanding Repubs will respond and take half of it back. That's how "nothing ever" changes play out in the world.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54395534
Why the US election could decide battle against climate change
Quote from: T. D. on October 18, 2020, 07:55:24 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54395534
Why the US election could decide battle against climate change
The United States is the most important nation state in the history of the world, and this election is the most important election in the history of democracy. So of course the victor of the US presidential election in 2020 will decide the outcome of the "battle" against climate change, something that occurs over decades and centuries and involves all nation states on earth. Duh.
The solutions to climate change disruption will continue to be technological, and tech the US develops and implements will spread around the world. In the process enormous wealth will be created.
As in the past the biggest problems create the most important opportunities for growth. Solving the poison energy crisis has led to lower energy costs. Solar now beats coal for electricity cost. I don't see any reason for the US to hand new industries to China and European countries when we need them here. Being a spreader and not just an adopter is a good deal for us.
We (1+1) voted yesterday, and there were only about 6 people ahead of us in line. Everything was exactly the same as usual as we picked up our ballots in the registration room and walked over to the voting room, voted and left.
Quote from: drogulus on October 18, 2020, 10:23:26 AM
We (1+1) voted yesterday, and there were only about 6 people ahead of us in line. Everything was exactly the same as usual as we picked up our ballots in the registration room and walked over to the voting room, voted and left.
Sounds anticlimactic :D
Quote from: 71 dB on October 18, 2020, 04:11:38 AM
I think many Americans don't even know what it's like to not get screwed. It's so normal for them to get screwed in everything. :-\
Their fine with getting screwed as long as they are ensured that
those people will get screwed even harder.
"The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it." -- Davis X. Machina
Quote from: Daverz on October 18, 2020, 01:01:24 PM
Their fine with getting screwed as long as they are ensured that those people will get screwed even harder.
"The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it." -- Davis X. Machina
That's called idiotism.
Quote from: Daverz on October 18, 2020, 01:01:24 PM
They're fine with getting screwed as long as they are ensured that those people will get screwed even harder.
"The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it." -- Davis X. Machina
Not far from the truth.
I once tried to understand this phenomenon, and read books such as
Deer Hunting with Jesus by Joe Bageant and
What's the matter with Kansas? by Thomas Frank. Neither one new, both recommendable, but I remain puzzled.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 18, 2020, 01:41:55 PM
That's called idiotism.
I like this phrase coined by Paul Campos: "apocalyptic Calvinism on meth" or ACOM
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/10/keeping-the-american-right-wing-respectable
Quote from: Daverz on October 18, 2020, 02:36:41 PM
I like this phrase coined by Paul Campos: "apocalyptic Calvinism on meth" or ACOM
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/10/keeping-the-american-right-wing-respectable
That's an excellent article! (Sadly)
Quote from: André on October 18, 2020, 11:32:27 AM
Sounds anticlimactic :D
Voting suppresses my libido.
Quote from: T. D. on October 18, 2020, 02:45:34 PM
That's an excellent article! (Sadly)
I used to follow a lot of blogs back in the heyday of blogging. Now it's pretty much just Lawyers, Guns & Money (https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/) and Digby (https://digbysblog.net/).
And, from the Bureau of Fake News:
New York Post Published Hunter Biden Report Amid Newsroom Doubts (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/18/business/media/new-york-post-hunter-biden.html?smid=tw-share)
Federal judge strikes down Trump plan to slash food stamps for 700,000 unemployed Americans
Over the past few weeks I've been thinking about how much the 2020 campaign has also been defined by Trump's fighting. But what's struck me has been the people and things he's not fighting that are revealing.
These non-fights began to envelop him when he was confronted with [l'affaire] "white nationalism" at the first debate. Trump handed out some Proud atta Boys, then refused to condemn it, and then finally, reluctantly, days later, said the words. His defenders then bristled that surely this was enough.
But it was so obviously not enough, because when Trump wants to condemn someone, you know it. He is not a subtle man. The leveling of harsh condemnations, his willingness to "go there" when others will not because of politesse, were literally his raison d'etre in the eyes of the GOP.
Pay Attention to Who Trump Spends His Time "Fighting" (https://thetriad.thebulwark.com/p/pay-attention-to-who-trump-spends)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2020, 06:10:10 AM
Federal judge strikes down Trump plan to slash food stamps for 700,000 unemployed Americans
Trump wanted to slash food stamps?! ??? Why, oh why, am surprised?
PD
Note especially: 47% of Fox News viewers think it "makes our country better" when "Americans" protest unfairness. Only 10% of Fox News viewers think "it makes our country better" when "Black Americans" protest
"You cannot find a Republican admitting that Trump's disastrous handling of the novel coronavirus — the central issue in this campaign — is a big reason he's losing. For these Republicans, the very existence of Trump's authorship of this catastrophe cannot be acknowledged. So public revulsion over this sick and dying elephant in the room — and the role that's playing in Trump's travails — also cannot be conceded.
"A lot of Republican consultants are frustrated because we want the president's campaign to be laser-focused on the economy," one GOP strategist tells the Times, adding that the message should be that "Trump built a great economy" that has since been damaged by coronavirus."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2020, 08:14:18 AM
"You cannot find a Republican admitting that Trump's disastrous handling of the novel coronavirus — the central issue in this campaign — is a big reason he's losing. For these Republicans, the very existence of Trump's authorship of this catastrophe cannot be acknowledged. So public revulsion over this sick and dying elephant in the room — and the role that's playing in Trump's travails — also cannot be conceded.
"A lot of Republican consultants are frustrated because we want the president's campaign to be laser-focused on the economy," one GOP strategist tells the Times, adding that the message should be that "Trump built a great economy" that has since been damaged by coronavirus."
""All Trump has to do is give people permission to vote for him," one GOP source tells Axios,
as if the past four years never happened and the only problem is that Trump isn't letting his opponent's negatives sink him.
It's true that all this shows that Trump is both overly prone to having faith in the fearsome power of right wing disinformation
and that he's trapped in 2016, a blissful time when he was the largely unknown outsider that undecided voters might take a chance on over an opponent who had been defined negatively in the public eye for decades."
Geo. Will: So, American voters should ask: Which candidate can be trusted to cope with foreign dangers calmly, assisted by a well-functioning national security apparatus? Is it the candidate who has had two secretaries of defense and state, and four national security advisers, who considers Xi Jinping a "friend," who sided with Putin against the U.S. intelligence agencies concerning Russian interference in the 2016 election and who tweeted "There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea" because he spent a few hours with Kim Jong Un, with whom he had an epistolary romance ("We fell in love")? Or is it the other candidate?
"In competitive Senate races across the country, including states where Trump remains popular, Republican incumbents are facing a conundrum: how to prove their pro-Trump bona fides to a MAGA movement that sees many longtime Republicans as insufficiently pure while stopping the hemorrhaging among suburban moderates who wonder why they have enabled the president.
The result for Ernst and as many as a half-dozen of her GOP colleagues may be the worst of both worlds, in which they risk alienating energized Trump backers if they criticize the president but then, if they stick with him, lose some centrist voters who have soured on Trump and are open to voting for a Democrat."
Quote from: T. D. on October 18, 2020, 01:52:17 PM
Not far from the truth.
I once tried to understand this phenomenon, and read books such as Deer Hunting with Jesus by Joe Bageant and What's the matter with Kansas? by Thomas Frank. Neither one new, both recommendable, but I remain puzzled.
It's easy to understand if you imagine that resentment is a strong motivator, not just for a particular group but for people everywhere regardless of their economic status. On this view the question is what
else motivates people. One imagines that the prospect of an additional goat is sufficient motivation to override killing the one the neighbor has, but only if that prospect is realistic. In Red Zones and working class areas abandoned by New Democrats the prospects for advancement are pretty poor as people who live there see it. They have been right more often than wrong. God, guns and gays don't pay the bills, but do own the libs.
Even Fox News passed on Rudy Giuliani's shady Hunter Biden laptop story due to the "lack of authentication of Hunter Biden's alleged laptop, combined with established concerns about Giuliani as a reliable source and his desire for unvetted publication."
New Yorker Suspends Jeffrey Toobin After Zoom Incident (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/19/business/media/jeffrey-toobin-new-yorker-suspended.html)
Down goes Toobin, one of the sharpest legal minds the New Yorker and CNN could field.
Quote from: Todd on October 19, 2020, 06:19:04 PM
New Yorker Suspends Jeffrey Toobin After Zoom Incident (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/19/business/media/jeffrey-toobin-new-yorker-suspended.html)
Down goes Toobin, one of the sharpest legal minds the New Yorker and CNN could field.
"Incident" is being polite...
He should have helicoptered after whipping it out, and made swooshing noises and started running around the room, trying to take off. At least make it entertaining, instead of just awkward.
Quote from: Todd on October 19, 2020, 06:19:04 PM
New Yorker Suspends Jeffrey Toobin After Zoom Incident (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/19/business/media/jeffrey-toobin-new-yorker-suspended.html)
Down goes Toobin, one of the sharpest legal minds the New Yorker and CNN could field.
Stupid boomer mistake. Give the guy a break. He wrote a great book on the noted terrorist and murderess, Patty Hearst.
Quote from: Todd on October 19, 2020, 06:19:04 PM
New Yorker Suspends Jeffrey Toobin After Zoom Incident (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/19/business/media/jeffrey-toobin-new-yorker-suspended.html)
Down goes Toobin, one of the sharpest legal minds the New Yorker and CNN could field.
If Rush Limbaugh did this he would get the Medal Of Freedom.
I put blue masking tape over the camera in any new laptop. That said, I've never felt the desire to whip it out during a business meeting. I will keep my headset on when using the facilities, though, being careful to mute first.
In the abstract, I don't see a problem as long as the exposure was unintentional, but it does reduce Toobin's effectiveness as a commentator. There are many others who could take his place, I'm sure.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 19, 2020, 07:29:05 PM
If Rush Limbaugh did this he would get the Medal Of Freedom.
haha, yes. people over a certain age should stay away from racy messaging. (that includes me.)
On the other hand, it seems this was yet another multi-talking head discussion of 'the political landscape' so who can blame Toobin for drifting off?
Quote from: Herman on October 19, 2020, 07:31:35 PM
haha, yes. people over a certain age should stay away from racy messaging. (that includes me.)
On the other hand, it seems this was yet another multi-talking head discussion of 'the political landscape' so who can blame Toobin for drifting off?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: that's hilarious. He certainly drifted pretty far.
It brings to mind Colbert's joke about Ted Cruz 'furiously masterdebating'.
In California the local GOP has been setting up phony ballot boxes where people are asked to drop off their mail-in ballots and no one knows what's going to happen to those ballots.
Last night an official ballot drop-off box was set on fire.
It's worth one's while to keep in mind the GOP has made voter fraud a big topic in these elections and yet they seem to be engaging in massive election fraud.
But hey, they have been packing the courts for ages so they're pretty much invulnerable on this.
Columbia University study: 8 million Americans have fallen into poverty since May.
Of course we're tired of the coronavirus, Mr. President. Wishful thinking won't make it go away.
Trump claims the Left wants to abolish the suburbs. If so, it would seem it's mostly people who live in the suburbs who want to abolish the suburbs
https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity-suburbs-health-racial-injustice-7edf9027af1878283f3818d96c54f748
Biden within the margin of error in Texas?
Shows you what Trump has "accomplished."
Trump's tax records show 'previously unknown bank account' in China, NYT reports
Trump paid $188,561 in taxes in China and $750 in taxes in the U.S.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2020, 05:37:26 AM
Trump's tax records show 'previously unknown bank account' in China, NYT reports
Trump paid $188,561 in taxes in China and $750 in taxes in the U.S.
That is quite a story ...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2020, 05:37:26 AM
Trump's tax records show 'previously unknown bank account' in China, NYT reports
Trump paid $188,561 in taxes in China and $750 in taxes in the U.S.
Doesn't that just p*(s you off Karl?! >:(
PD
I do not deny it, PD!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2020, 05:37:26 AM
Trump's tax records show 'previously unknown bank account' in China, NYT reports
Trump paid $188,561 in taxes in China and $750 in taxes in the U.S.
There's probably a
dozen countries where Trump paid more taxes than in the US. :-\
Voters in Two States Report Threatening 'Vote for Trump' Emails (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/20/us/politics/florida-alaska-trump-emails.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage)
"We are in possession of all your information You are currently registered as a Democrat and we know this because we have gained access into the entire voting infrastructure. You will vote for Trump on Election Day or we will come after you. Change your party affiliation to Republican to let us know you received our message and will comply. We will know which candidate you voted for. I would take this seriously if I were you."
The source of the email was a server in Estonia.
In the email that The Times reviewed, metadata shows that the original email came from vhost43553f0@avalik.koolibri.ee, an Estonian mail server hosted on ElkData.ee, one of the country's domain hosting services.
If I got an email like this I would "view raw message" to see what that reveals. I might have seen the ".ee" or just looked up the originating IP address.
Quote from: drogulus on October 21, 2020, 08:02:27 AM
Voters in Two States Report Threatening 'Vote for Trump' Emails (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/20/us/politics/florida-alaska-trump-emails.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage)
"We are in possession of all your information You are currently registered as a Democrat and we know this because we have gained access into the entire voting infrastructure. You will vote for Trump on Election Day or we will come after you. Change your party affiliation to Republican to let us know you received our message and will comply. We will know which candidate you voted for. I would take this seriously if I were you."
This is extremely similar to the porn blackmail spam. :D
A hoax, obviously.
Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 08:15:30 AM
This is extremely similar to the porn blackmail spam. :D
A hoax, obviously.
Of course. However imagine you're an older person who is not a regular porn user ::) and thus unfamiliar with this kind of stuff.
Imagine you're not too smart, and still plan to vote for Biden, because you like him better.
In that case mails like this are pretty scary.
It's all about supressing the D vote.
Quote from: Herman on October 21, 2020, 08:46:34 AM
Of course. However imagine you're an older person who is not a regular porn user ::) and thus unfamiliar with this kind of stuff.
Imagine you're not too smart, and still plan to vote for Biden, because you like him better.
In that case mails like this are pretty scary.
It's all about supressing the D vote.
That's part of it, but if you look at the pattern since 2016 you'll see that the aim is to weaken the US and Europe by means of a strategy I call Helter Skelter. The idea is to destroy trust everywhere in society and render policy cooperation in the alliance system as difficult as possible.
Trump is a paradigmatic Helter Skelterist. Russia uses him as a weapon against both political parties. I note that the original Manson Family context for Helter Shelter was the instigation of a race war, which is funny because I wasn't focused so much on that aspect back in the days when we were young and innocent.
True, that's how Putin et al do this, and it's much cheaper than upgrading defense and creating a space force etc.
And of course, the "happy to be a jerk" contingent see no problem.
Quote from: Herman on October 21, 2020, 08:46:34 AM
Imagine you're not too smart, and still plan to vote for Biden
Bothsiderism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Guiliani children need to sit down with Rudy and explain to him that it's time to give up the car keys.
To those who don't know why I am saying that today...you don't want to know. Just avoid any mention of Borat or Rudy in the news for as long as possible.
Quote from: Herman on October 21, 2020, 10:31:51 AMthat's how Putin et al do this
Question for you (anyone else invited to answer as well):
In terms of foreign policy, who was/is more hawkish: Putin, Obama or Trump?
(I haste to add that nobody who has been attentively following my political opinions over thirteen years could ever accuse me of being a Putin fan.)
Please, gents, I want an honest answer.
Putin more than Obama more than Trump.
Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2020, 11:17:20 AM
Putin more than Obama more than Trump.
That does seem to be their reputation.
Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2020, 11:10:09 AM
The Guiliani children need to sit down with Rudy and explain to him that it's time to give up the car keys.
To those who don't know why I am saying that today...you don't want to know. Just avoid any mention of Borat or Rudy in the news for as long as possible.
I believe the Guiliani children aren't too eager to talk with dad.
Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2020, 11:17:20 AM
Putin more than Obama more than Trump.
Sweden is Boosting its Civil Defense Spending (Thanks to Russia) (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/sweden-boosting-its-civil-defense-spending-thanks-russia-171044)
This week, the Swedish government decided to raise its defense budget by 40 percent over the next five years, and unsurprisingly the hike generated lots of headlines at home and abroad. Equally important, though, is Sweden's decision to invest in civil defense. Indeed, it's an area where other countries could watch and learn.
The military defense proposition, put forward by Sweden's social democratic-green coalition this week, will see active-duty personnel increase by 50 percent. The Army will double in size, the Navy will receive more vessels, and the Air Force will be given better weapons systems. In addition, Sweden's highly selective military service will expand from 4,000 to 8,000 young men and women each year. With some 90,000 Swedes born each year, it means military service will remain decidedly selective, with only the best candidates chosen. The Arctic is getting hotter in more ways than one.
Quote from: drogulus on October 21, 2020, 11:47:26 AM
Sweden is Boosting its Civil Defense Spending (Thanks to Russia) (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/sweden-boosting-its-civil-defense-spending-thanks-russia-171044)
This week, the Swedish government decided to raise its defense budget by 40 percent over the next five years, and unsurprisingly the hike generated lots of headlines at home and abroad. Equally important, though, is Sweden's decision to invest in civil defense. Indeed, it's an area where other countries could watch and learn.
The military defense proposition, put forward by Sweden's social democratic-green coalition this week, will see active-duty personnel increase by 50 percent. The Army will double in size, the Navy will receive more vessels, and the Air Force will be given better weapons systems. In addition, Sweden's highly selective military service will expand from 4,000 to 8,000 young men and women each year. With some 90,000 Swedes born each year, it means military service will remain decidedly selective, with only the best candidates chosen.
The Arctic is getting hotter in more ways than one.
This is no answer to my question. Here it is, in case you missed it:
Quote from: FlorestanIn terms of foreign policy, who was/is more hawkish: Putin, Obama or Trump?
Quote from: drogulus on October 21, 2020, 11:47:26 AM
Sweden is Boosting its Civil Defense Spending (Thanks to Russia) (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/sweden-boosting-its-civil-defense-spending-thanks-russia-171044)
This week, the Swedish government decided to raise its defense budget by 40 percent over the next five years, and unsurprisingly the hike generated lots of headlines at home and abroad. Equally important, though, is Sweden's decision to invest in civil defense. Indeed, it's an area where other countries could watch and learn.
The military defense proposition, put forward by Sweden's social democratic-green coalition this week, will see active-duty personnel increase by 50 percent. The Army will double in size, the Navy will receive more vessels, and the Air Force will be given better weapons systems. In addition, Sweden's highly selective military service will expand from 4,000 to 8,000 young men and women each year. With some 90,000 Swedes born each year, it means military service will remain decidedly selective, with only the best candidates chosen.
The Arctic is getting hotter in more ways than one.
Thanks. Interesting, indeed.
Andrei, has Trump seemed to you in even the least degree hawkish?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2020, 11:55:08 AM
Andrei, has Trump seemed to you in even the least degree hawkish?
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.
My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.
Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.
My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.
I agree with Jeffrey, Obama was a turtledove compared to Putin.
Bunker Boy, who doesn't oppose Putin even in the vile matter of the Taliban bounties is toothless rather than pacifist. Pepper-spraying your own citizens for a photo op doesn't pass for military resolve.
Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.
My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.
I'm curious to know why you think Obama was a greater hawk than Putin. He was more hawkish than Trump is, but probably less hawkish than any of his four immediate predecessors (Reagan through Bush fils)
Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2020, 12:10:16 PM
I'm curious to know why you think Obama was a greater hawk than Putin.
ObamaHere are the facts:
Obama escalated the war in Afghanistan, adding tens of thousands of troops at a cost of many billions of dollars.
He committed American forces to a war in Libya, though he had neither approval from Congress nor reason to think events there threatened national security.
He ordered 250 drone strikes that killed at least 1,400 people in Pakistan.
He ordered the raid into Pakistan that killed Osama bin Laden.
He ordered the killings of multiple American citizens living abroad.
He expanded the definition of the War on Terrorism and asserted his worldwide power to indefinitely detain anyone he deems a terrorist.
He expanded drone attacks into Somalia.
He ordered a raid on pirates in Somalia.
He deployed military squads to fight the drug war throughout Latin America.
He expanded the drone war in Yemen, going so far as to give the CIA permission to kill people even when it doesn't know their identities so long as they're suspected of ties to terrorism.
He's implied that he'd go to war with Iran rather than permitting them to get nuclear weapons.
In summary, President Obama escalated a major war and sent tens of thousands more troops to fight it, even as he joined in regime change in a different country, ordered drone strikes in at least three others, and sent commandos into Pakistan, a list of aggressive actions that isn't even exhaustive.
(https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/reality-check-yes-president-obama-is-a-hawk/256674/)
Thats is, 11 counts.
Putin- made war to Georgia
- annexed Crimea
- foment civil unrest in Ukraine
That is, 3 counts.
Trump- ordered the killing of an Iranian top officer.
That is, 1 count.
Justifiable and unjustifiable actions count equally when tallying the points and considering the aggressiveness of these people, do they?
The simplest reply to that is
Obama continued a war started by his predecessors. Putin started wars.
You did btw leave out Putin's involvement in Syria, which Obama's decision not to get involved there cleared the way for.
Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.
My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.
T was least friendly/sympathetic president to the allies and developed nations.
Quote from: drogulus on October 21, 2020, 08:02:27 AM
Voters in Two States Report Threatening 'Vote for Trump' Emails (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/20/us/politics/florida-alaska-trump-emails.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage)
"We are in possession of all your information You are currently registered as a Democrat and we know this because we have gained access into the entire voting infrastructure. You will vote for Trump on Election Day or we will come after you. Change your party affiliation to Republican to let us know you received our message and will comply. We will know which candidate you voted for. I would take this seriously if I were you."
The source of the email was a server in Estonia.
In the email that The Times reviewed, metadata shows that the original email came from vhost43553f0@avalik.koolibri.ee, an Estonian mail server hosted on ElkData.ee, one of the country's domain hosting services.
If I got an email like this I would "view raw message" to see what that reveals. I might have seen the ".ee" or just looked up the originating IP address.
I heard a story today about a 20-year-old in Florida who received this and was truly scared and freaked out.
PD
Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2020, 01:35:41 PM
You did btw leave out Putin's involvement in Syria, which Obama's decision not to get involved there cleared the way for.
Trump's position on Iran is war in Yemen but no war in Syria. Also he has a Saudi friend, a Russian friend and a Turkish friend.
Trump's position on Ukraine involves less triangulation. He supports Putin and opposes Biden.
Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.
My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.
Yawn. Given that the three chief executives have/had entirely different motivations and interests in pursuing foreign policy goals, hawkishness is a vapid, intellectually lazy catch all. I'm wondering what you even mean by hawkish? If you mean naked aggression on foreign soil, including invading countries and annexing territory, then you're obviously in error in your ranking.
"This data can be used by foreign actors to attempt to communicate false information to registered voters that they hope will cause confusion, sow chaos, and undermine your confidence in American democracy," Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe said in a surprise news conference Wednesday evening.
(https://deadline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/donald-trump-1-e1577049942608.jpg?w=1000)
The party of voter suppression doesn't mind.
NSA intelligence led to last month's takedown by Facebook and Twitter of a Russian operation called Peace Data, which recruited U.S. journalists to write articles intended to undermine support for Biden and his running mate, Sen. Kamala D. Harris (D-Calif.). In October, an FBI investigation led to the neutralizing of another Russian operation — this one targeting conservative voters — on three mainstream platforms.
(https://peacedata.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/image123.jpg)
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 21, 2020, 02:53:43 PM
I'm wondering what you even mean by hawkish?
Willingness to use military force or other violent actions in order to achieve a country's foreign policy goals or to protect their economic, strategic or geopolitical interests.
Now, if we refer to statements and declarations, Putin is the most bellicose leader in the world save Kim Jong-Un. When it comes to actual use of military force and violent actions, his are less numerous than Obama's. And compared to both Obama and Putin, Trump is a schoolyard boy.
Look, I'm not saying Putin is a good guy (he isn't) but I'd like to know why USA's militarily protecting their foreign interests in defiance of international law is legitimate or at least justifiable and Russia's doing the same isn't.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 21, 2020, 01:52:29 PM
T was least friendly/sympathetic president to the allies and developed nations.
Excellent.
Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 12:43:00 AMWillingness to use military force or other violent actions in order to achieve a country's foreign policy goals or to protect their economic, strategic or geopolitical interests.
It is important to distinguish between rhetoric and war. Someone characterized Reagan as quite hawkish previously in this thread, yet Reagan invaded
Grenada and approved various covert acts, none as consequential as Carter's Afghanistan policy. Using Haass' framework, Reagan was an arch-maximalist in rhetoric, but a minimalist in action. He spoke loudly and carried a big stick, but he didn't really use it. Trump is a minimalist. Obama was a minimalist compared to Bush II, though more warlike and prone to war and war crimes than Trump - eg, his vast, unaccountable expansion of assassination by UAV, and the destruction of Libya.
Some items on your list of charges against Obama don't differentiate between rhetoric and action, and fail to take account of international agreement. For instance, threatening to go to war with Iran is standard fare, and everyone knew Obama would not actually do it, just like Trump will not, nor will Biden. Also, use of force against piracy in the Gulf of Aden and Red Sea was part of an international effort that involved multiple great powers, and fighting piracy is fairly mundane in the area of foreign policy. Putin's actions in the Caucasus and Ukraine have represented a formal breach with long-standing norms, most importantly the seizure and annexation of land. Putin's rhetoric and asymmetric activities show him to be fairly hawkish and quite willing to engage in standard violent or otherwise unpleasant policy actions to further Russian actions. He is not especially hawkish in action given Russian limitations. This century, the most violent and warlike great power has been the US, no question about it. Every president since at least Eisenhower has committed war crimes under either the Geneva Conventions or the rules established at Nuremberg, but many Americans still need to rely on a fantasy that Americans are good guys and various foreigners are bad guys, with Russia the baddest of the bad. Eventually, China will take that away from Russia, but not this election cycle. Seems unlikely for the 2024 cycle, but it depends on what Chinese plans are regarding Taiwan.
Democrats Plan To Boycott Senate Committee Vote On Barrett Nomination (https://www.npr.org/2020/10/21/926351649/democrats-plan-to-boycott-senate-committee-vote-on-barrett-nomination)
As an Oregonian, I would like some clarity on why in this instance Democrats are acting in a constructive, principled manner and are good, and why Oregon state Republicans, when they walked out of legislative sessions, are unprincipled and bad. If I did not know any better, it appears that Dems are being their hypocritical selves. To be clear, Republicans are hypocritical. Both sides are hypocritical. Ah, see that?
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 04:42:59 AM
Some items on your list of charges against Obama
Not my list. I copypasted it from
The Atlantic. That being said, there's nothing in your post that I disagree with.
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 04:47:51 AM
Democrats Plan To Boycott Senate Committee Vote On Barrett Nomination (https://www.npr.org/2020/10/21/926351649/democrats-plan-to-boycott-senate-committee-vote-on-barrett-nomination)
As an Oregonian, I would like some clarity on why in this instance Democrats are acting in a constructive, principled manner and are good, and why Oregon state Republicans, when they walked out of legislative sessions, are unprincipled and bad. If I did not know any better, it appears that Dems are being their hypocritical selves. To be clear, Republicans are hypocritical. Both sides are hypocritical. Ah, see that?
This is bothsiderism, right? :D
Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 05:16:56 AMI copypasted it from The Atlantic.
Got it. That explains the mediocrity.
Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 05:18:02 AM
This is bothsiderism, right? :D
When pseudo-intellectuals use the phrase or one of its derivatives, they really mean that Democrats are morally good and intellectually honest, and that when Dems engage in a specific action or use a specific argument, it is wholesome and right. When dastardly Republicans do it, it is vile and wrong and dishonest. You will see said pseudo-intellectuals attempt to use logicians' phrases like "false equivalence" or "moral equivalence", or whatnot.
Now, in the comparison I raised, Amy Coney Barrett is very clearly a bad person, bordering on Hitlerian evil. She does not agree with Roe, for instance. That necessarily, automatically, and permanently renders her entirely unsuitable to sit on SCOTUS. Therefore, given her Hitlerian evil, Democrats are taking the bold step of boycotting the Judiciary Committee vote. It is an ineffectual, impotent gesture.
Oregon state Republicans, on the other hand, opposed righteous and good and wholesome legislation regarding an emissions cap and trade scheme* presented by the near super-majority Democrats. That prevented a quorum, which killed the bill. Republicans were effective. Actually, you see, that points out the difference: Democrats are incompetent and flail helplessly while Republicans, even when in minority status, thwart Dems. Republicans are bad because they succeed.
* State level cap and trade legislation is hokum on many levels. Every economist, of every political persuasion, will tell you that a carbon tax is far more efficient and effective at dealing with emissions. Telling people you want to impose a massive new tax is political poison, though, so hokum prevails.
"Trump is trailing, according to FiveThirtyEight's averages, by about 3.5 points in both Arizona and Florida and three points in North Carolina. He cannot afford to lose any of them. He is also in a statistical tie with Biden in Ohio, Texas, Iowa and Georgia. (Imagine if a Democrat were tied in Maryland, Connecticut, New Jersey and Vermont while trailing in Nevada, Colorado and New Hampshire.)
Such an extensive election map lead with a huge money advantage is every campaign operative's dream. (Biden started October with $177 million on hand, compared with $63 million for Trump.) Trump, on the other hand, has too many holes in the dike, with too little time and too few resources to plug them. Moreover, he has no compelling reason to change voters' minds. He wastes time hollering about indecipherable conspiracy plots; whining that CBS's Lesley Stahl was mean to him; joining supporters in a "lock her up" chant against popular Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D); and trying to minimize a pandemic that has killed more than 220,000 Americans."
Remember the joke in Spaceballs about 12345 as a password?
"Dutch security researcher succeeded in logging into the Twitter account of the American President Donald Trump [who] had an extremely weak and easy to guess password ["maga2020!"] and had, according to the researcher, not applied two-step verification."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2020, 06:13:30 AM
whining that CBS's Lesley Stahl was mean to him; joining supporters in a "lock her up" chant against popular Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D)
I believe tonight's debate is again moderated by a woman?
There are not enough sedatives in the USA for Trump not to have yet another peeve episode...
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 05:44:52 AM
When pseudo-intellectuals use the phrase or one of its derivatives, they really mean that Democrats are morally good and intellectually honest, and that when Dems engage in a specific action or use a specific argument, it is wholesome and right. When dastardly Republicans do it, it is vile and wrong and dishonest. You will see said pseudo-intellectuals attempt to use logicians' phrases like "false equivalence" or "moral equivalence", or whatnot.
This concept isn't just for this phrase, this sums up partisan politics in a nutshell. Tribalism 101 here.
Part of the problem may be that some groups are actually bad, so if you recontextualize some things then it can turn negative. So there could be some legitimacy to this generally, but not in the sense of Republicans/Democrats, because to just think that
all of them are bad is retarded.
I really wish people could detach from their tribes/groups, in order to be able to look for the truth more freely, without having their tribal/philosophical/religious filter applied to their vision. But when you try to question attached people, usually they will make it personal and view you as some sort of devil just for trying to find the truth.
Quote from: greg on October 22, 2020, 08:00:56 AM
.
I really wish people could detach from their tribes/groups, in order to be able to look for the truth more freely, without having their tribal/philosophical/religious filter applied to their vision.
People do that all the time, but consider also that filters can be open or closed to disconfirmation of beliefs.
Quote from: Todd on October 18, 2020, 05:51:31 AM
Except Trump has not packed the court. The phrase and concept eludes many/most/all lefties. Trump and McConnell have followed constitutionally and statutorily prescribed processes to fill judicial vacancies. McConnell arrived at a novel approach to blocking a SCOTUS nominee in 2016, so now nominees can get either Borked or Garlanded when they get screwed over for purely political reasons.
Packing the court is when sore loser lefties - and it is always sore loser lefties - attempt to use legislative means to increase the number of justices to meet a preferred outcome - a majority. FDR tried this in the 30s when the mean old justices then on the bench disagreed with his executive branch power grab. Even he failed. (There is some question whether he really wanted to succeed, or if he just wanted a more pliable court, which he ended up with.) Lefties want to do it again today. Lefties are sore losers. And they are hilariously inept. Ro Khanna and assorted Dem hangers-on are engaging in a silly attempt to legislatively limit SCOTUS justice terms. Apparently, Khanna and crew forgot to read the actual Constitution. Either that, or they do know the Constitution and are merely grandstanding. I guess that would make them cynical. Hmm. (Best case from a lefty standpoint is that they are wishful thinkers since the premise of the legislation is that SCOTUS justices be reassigned to lower courts, thereby adhering to the good behavior clause. Good luck on that one.)
But let's play a fun game. If Dems succeed under a Super-Creepy 46 administration, and pack the court, a future Republican government will have several avenues to limit the damage the unelected body can do. They could pack the court again, bringing it to an unruly size, rendering even procedural decisions unnecessarily difficult. That would be a good outcome. They could limit appellate jurisdiction. That would definitely be a good outcome. They could limit SCOTUS session lengths. That could be nearly paralyzing in some instances, resulting in conflicting lower court rulings on various matters. That would be a delightful outcome. This would all be made much, much easier if Dems abolish the legislative filibuster.
So it would be a very good thing if Dems sweep in a couple weeks, eliminate the legislative filibuster, and pack the court.
Go Dems!
Dems like me don't care what you think. We're just following the "good" example of Moscow Mitch. When it comes time to pack the courts, we'll just tell the GOP to go eff themselves.
If Biden endorses a court reform package with buy-in from some Repubs that might make it more difficult for Repubs to throw it away if they ever get unified government behind a white power platform. These days Repubs are acting as though this is the last chance for the Lost Cause.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 22, 2020, 08:41:31 AMWhen it comes time to pack the courts, we'll just tell the GOP to go eff themselves.
I hope so.
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 09:39:01 AM
I hope so.
Again, we don't care what GOP lackeys like you think. Moscow Mitch and you didn't care what we thought and we certainly don't care what you think what's right or wrong here. Packing the lower courts with woefully poor rightwing judges that don't reflect the majority of the US is a clear middle finger to most of the US.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 22, 2020, 10:22:23 AMAgain, we don't care what GOP lackeys like you think.
You care enough to respond and repeat yourself.
Senate Judiciary Committee approves Trump's choice for Supreme Court as Democrats boycott (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/22/amy-coney-barrett-nomination-vote-live-updates/)
Surprising. I wonder how the full senate vote will go? A real nail-biter!
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 05:44:52 AM
When pseudo-intellectuals use the phrase or one of its derivatives, they really mean that Democrats are morally good and intellectually honest, and that when Dems engage in a specific action or use a specific argument, it is wholesome and right. When dastardly Republicans do it, it is vile and wrong and dishonest. You will see said pseudo-intellectuals attempt to use logicians' phrases like "false equivalence" or "moral equivalence", or whatnot.
If I may put in in an international perspective: I'm sure that one could find examples of USA interfering in other nations' elections, by various means, in order to secure the victory of their prefered candidate. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 11:51:46 AM
If I may put in in an international perspective: I'm sure that one could find examples of USA interfering in other nations' elections, by various means, in order to secure the victory of their prefered candidate. ;D
Nope. Americans are the good guys!
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 11:54:36 AM
Nope. Americans are the good guys!
Let's say that for me personally they are less bad than the Russians and I'd rather live under USA's hegemony than under Russia's --- which is why I strongly support NATO and the existing international order. But I entertain no illusions whatsoever about the morality and the goodwill of the US foreign policy: they do what each and every great power before them did and what each and every great power after them will do.
Quote from: Dowder on October 22, 2020, 01:38:37 PM
I'm sure you're just waiting to open the gulags here, comrade.
And I'm sure you're going to vote often too, like Donald tells you to.
Beyond that, I can see the Hitler youth in you as you push for an authoritarian state as pushed by Dear Leader Donald. You a Proud Boy too?
Quote from: Dowder on October 22, 2020, 01:43:56 PM
People still buy into that hope and change propaganda. :-X
Better than ignorance as pushed by Donald, The Dear Leader.
I'm sure with Amy Coney Barrett installed next week as an associate justice, it will be the dream of you and Dear Leader to assure his election.
Mary Trump: Psychiatrists know what's wrong with my uncle. Let them tell voters.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2020, 03:12:24 PM
Mary Trump: Psychiatrists know what's wrong with my uncle. Let them tell voters.
Anyone with an open mind can tell what's wrong with Crazy Don
Yes, the pathetic bullshitter
https://www.youtube.com/v/i2yfA5cUwnk
Note the two hands for the water glass
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 22, 2020, 03:14:26 PM
Anyone with an open mind can tell what's wrong with Crazy Don
There is that, too.
https://www.youtube.com/v/p58I3Xs0v-c
The U.S. has hit 100% of total 2016 early voting
At least 47.1 million have voted nationwide, and there are still 12 days until Election Day
On the other hand some sloths in human shape cannot be bothered even do the research and exercise their right.
I've spent a lot of my life—far too much in retrospect—waging war on the Democratic party. It was my job and I was good at it but in all those battles, even in the toughest of races, I never hated the other side. I wanted to win each race with the heat of a thousand suns and when I did lose, I found it sickening in a way that hung with me longer than any victory. But I never feared for the country if the Democrats won.
This year, for the first time in my life, I'm helping out the other side, because I very much do fear for the country under an even more unrestrained Donald Trump. There are many good men and women in the Republican party, but they have proven themselves to be smaller than the moment demanded. They stink of fear and desperation and it breaks my heart to watch them flail around trying to convince the world, and themselves, that they are not who they have proven to be. I feel sadness. I feel pity. But not remorse.
Today's Republicans are not worthy of the great legacy they inherited. When grown men and women refuse to denounce a man who boasts he did not rape a woman because "she was not my type," any semblance of public good has been lost. I can't direct the Republican party to the lost and found where it might reclaim its soul, but I do know that defeat, while not sufficient, is necessary in order for it to embark on that journey.
My first vote was 1980 and I voted for John Anderson. I have voted for one Republican in my life, Mark Hatfield. There is no way I would vote for someone who's tendencies are more in line with Putin and Xi, as well as Adolph, than someone who holds our democracy dear, i.e., Joe Biden.
Today, I mailed my vote in for Joe Biden and Jeff Merkley (for Oregon's senator).
"It is not a great idea to have a President who owes a bunch of money to people overseas."
~President Barack Obama
Afew hours ago I wrote a piece explaining in some detail why, if you take a 360-degree view of all of the polling data we've gathered over the last four years, the current view—that Donald Trump is losing by roughly 9 points—makes sense.
Since the time of that writing there have been two developments that suggest we can take this conclusion further:
Donald Trump is going to lose the presidency, probably by a historic margin.
The first report is a new poll from Gallup that asks the fundamental question: "Does President Donald Trump deserve to be reelected?"
56 percent say "no."
43 percent say "yes."
That's -13 for Trump. Only 1 percent of the sample had no opinion.
This is death for an incumbent. By comparison: In the same poll, 60 percent of respondents said that their member of Congress deserves reelection and only 35 percent say their member does not.
So get your head around that: On the two federal offices that every American can vote on two weeks from now, the average member of Congress is +25 on reelect; President Trump is -13.
There is no skew, no shyness, no conspiracy that can overcome numbers like that.
Kristen Welker's Debate Dilemma
Trump has too many crimes, misdeeds, and failures to cover in 90 minutes.
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 03:56:08 PM
Godwin's Law continues to hold up.
If the shoe fits, and it certainly does in the case of a president who is more than willing to go after his opponents and push Barr to "lock them up." Are you blind? I've met stupid people in my life, but really what evidence do you need to show Trump interfered with our elections, pushed Ukraine to do so, and is now pushing a compromised IPad as some sort of "evidence" of Joe's "guilt?"
And you're more than willing to allow Moscow Mitch to stack our courts with rightwing hacks and be a hypocrite in an election year. Well, I say to hell with Republicans. When this is all over and the Senate and House, along with the presidency are safely in Dem hands, I just hope we can resuscitate our country from the damage Dump and his sycophants in Congress have done.
No one with his face in Trump's armpit has any credibility accusing anyone on the planet of hypocrisy.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 22, 2020, 04:01:15 PM
If the shoe fits, and it certainly does in the case of a president who is more than willing to go after his opponents and push Barr to "lock them up." Are you blind? I've met stupid people in my life, but really what evidence do you need to show Trump interfered with our elections, pushed Ukraine to do so, and is now pushing a compromised IPad as some sort of "evidence" of Joe's "guilt?"
Well!
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2020, 04:51:46 PM
Wow! You have been a Republican?? Why? You live in a VERY blue state don't you? What good does educated people see in Republicans? What good people is in that party? I don't understand and frankly I don't care anymore. You live in a shithole country so I shouldn't be surprised about shithole opinions... ::)
Sorry to have confused you; this is from an article (https://thebulwark.com/victory-is-near/)
quotation marks and attribution, Karl.
trump's "tiny windows" are back! And "wind" kills birds!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-22/usps-ordered-to-restore-high-speed-machines-for-election-mail
Quote from: Herman on October 22, 2020, 06:26:27 PM
quotation marks and attribution, Karl.
Het spijt me. It was lazy of me.
Joe crushed Donald in the debate tonight.
Quote from: Dowder on October 22, 2020, 07:39:43 PM
Trump clearly won. If you disagree you're probably a communist.
If you think Donald won, you're clearly a fascist.
Or a believer.
If you hear Trump talk about health care, you need to strenuously forget that he's been promising a plan for years and never even got close.
It's all talk and harmonica hands. Bad salesmanship.
Trump has spent the last 4 years shooting his own feet. He began promising to produce Obama's Kenyan birth records and went on nonstop from there. So nothing he says now really matters.
Quote from: Dowder on October 22, 2020, 07:39:43 PM
Trump clearly won. If you disagree you're probably a communist.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 22, 2020, 07:52:17 PM
If you think Donald won, you're clearly a fascist.
Boys, boys, boys! The schoolyard is the other way! And if you don't behave yourselves, no cake and TV this evening.
In CA the GOP has been placing phony ballot drop-off boxes.
In Philadelphia the GOP is illegally videoing voters as they drop off their ballots.
CNN Poll: Biden wins final presidential debate (https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/22/politics/cnn-poll-final-presidential-debate/index.html)
It's from Comedy News Network, so it's questionable, but it looks like Super-Creepy 46 went two-for-two. I watched about thirty minutes, and the candidates said the same things as previously, it was just far less entertaining than before.
Early voting now totals about 50 million votes cast.
If AmPo is to be believed, some Dems are talking electoral landslide to go with the national level sweep. Such Dems really ought to consult with the hysterical yet colossally well informed people on GMG who know that Trump will steal the election and serve a second and then third and fourth term.
CNN focus group of 11 undecided voters in NC.
9 say Biden won.
2 say it was a draw.
0 say Trump won.
David Frum: "Have you noticed how upset Trump partisans are that they cannot force their Fox News plot lines onto other media?
There's a reason for that.
40% of US adults affirmatively distrust Fox News as an information source."
Anyone actually ever hear someone say "I'm voting for this guy but he lost the debate." ? ???
I can't recall ever meeting anyone IRL who decided how to vote based on a televised debate. I don't know any undecided voters.
Richard North Patterson: "Instead of modulating his pitch to reach undecided voters, Trump seeks out shills like Sean Hannity to serve as his media comfort animals. Impervious to advice, he slights running on his only residual strength—his perceived economic stewardship—in favor of recycled recitations of feuds, resentments, and personal grievances of interest to no one save the most insular members of his base."
No wonder Mini Bear is pom-poms out
Quote from: greg on October 23, 2020, 05:46:21 AM
Anyone actually ever hear someone say "I'm voting for this guy but he lost the debate." ? ???
Biden supporters complained about his performance in the primary debates. Reagan and Obama supporters did likewise when they stumbled in debates. They might not use the word "lost".
The only creepy ones are Rudolph Ghouliani(https://cdn10.phillymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/rudy-nosferatu.jpg)
But then we expect Donald's fervent followers to act in such a way to make ANY woman feel abused...it's the Donald way. E. Jean Carroll just one such example with Donald abusing the judicial system by claiming he acted as the president when sexually assaulting women.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2020, 05:05:32 PM
Sorry to have confused you; this is from an article (https://thebulwark.com/victory-is-near/)
This is embarashing! Sorry Karl! I removed my idiotic response! :P
Quote from: 71 dB on October 23, 2020, 07:50:38 AM
This is embarashing! Sorry Karl! I removed my idiotic response! :P
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 23, 2020, 07:47:58 AM
But then we expect Donald's fervent followers to act in such a way to make ANY woman feel abused...it's the Donald way. E. Jean Carroll just one such example with Donald abusing the judicial system by claiming he acted as the president when sexually assaulting women.
Trump is claiming that his statements about Carroll were part of his job. He said she was a liar and was paid to accuse him of rape, and "not my type".
70,000 new cases of coronavirus today. Ya, right. We're rounding the corner on this. Good god, Trump is a fool.
Quote from: drogulus on October 23, 2020, 09:36:52 AM
Trump is claiming that his statements about Carroll were part of his job. He said she was a liar and was paid to accuse him of rape, and "not my type".
Trump is claiming that the US government and you and I should be paying for his defense.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/23/jared-kushner-friend-ken-kurson-charged-with-stalking.html
Ken Kurson, the former editor of a New York newspaper that had been owned by his friend Jared Kushner, a top advisor to President Donald Trump, has been charged by federal prosecutors with stalking and harassment of three people.
Kurson, a political consultant who is also a confidante of Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, is accused of repeatedly visting his victims at work, making false complaints with their employer and "malicious cyber activity," the Brooklyn U.S. Attorney's office said Friday.
:laugh: Birds of a feather! :laugh:
Phil Ochs would likely roll over in his grave at being mentioned in the same breath as these swine, but...
I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody Outside of a small circle of friends
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMeG6dAFqXw
Trump's sarcastic comments about "talking about sitting around the kitchen table" are going to haunt him in the next ten days.
It's his confession he doesn't give a shit about the American people.
Quote from: Herman on October 23, 2020, 12:07:28 PM
It's his confession he doesn't give a shit about the American people.
Weird way to look at it IMO...
We know that the Republicans are going to do everything to suppress the vote, from kneecapping the post office, to intimidation at the polling station. Obstacles are clear evidence that the GOP sees suppression as a way to make sure Dems don't win.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 23, 2020, 02:27:30 PM
We know that the Republicans are going to do everything to suppress the vote, from kneecapping the post office, to intimidation at the polling station. Obstacles are clear evidence that the GOP sees suppression as a way to make sure Dems don't win.
Don't see any Trumpkin objections to voter suppression here, do you?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 23, 2020, 02:27:30 PM
We know that the Republicans are going to do everything to suppress the vote, from kneecapping the post office, to intimidation at the polling station. Obstacles are clear evidence that the GOP sees suppression as a way to make sure Dems don't win.
The USPS has come up with an ingenious wrinkle by withdrawing its own police force from surveillance of ballot drop boxes. It's like ratfucker performance art.
And, a new episode of Creep Show:
https://www.youtube.com/v/9UHa1r6_sQ4
Random thought, but I find it impressive how political candidates can fire off answers so quickly in debates. Even Biden would zoom past me in speed of response.
If I were asked a question, I would need like ten minutes to think about how to answer a highly open-ended question without screwing it up because there are just way too many starting points, way too many pitfalls, way too many possible ways of interpreting and responding to the question.
Not saying they have good responses, just that fluidly coming up with some responses with no time to think is kinda impressive IMO.
If the Trumpkins really gave half a shit about corruption:
https://www.youtube.com/v/A_ticL9p_NE
Quote from: greg on October 23, 2020, 04:40:34 PM
Random thought, but I find it impressive how political candidates can fire off answers so quickly in debates. Even Biden would zoom past me in speed of response.
If I were asked a question, I would need like ten minutes to think about how to answer a highly open-ended question without screwing it up because there are just way too many starting points, way too many pitfalls, way too many possible ways of interpreting and responding to the question.
Not saying they have good responses, just that fluidly coming up with some responses with no time to think is kinda impressive IMO.
Add to this the awareness that it's live tv and tens of millions of people are watching you speak. Many people would crumble.
Quote from: Herman on October 23, 2020, 04:52:43 PM
Add to this the awareness that it's live tv and tens of millions of people are watching you speak. Many people would crumble.
Lol yep, it probably helps to have a ton of practice over the years with this kind of thing before taking the big stage.
It even kinda extends to non-public speaking, but performance/rehearsed stuff as well- this youtuber, Stevie T, is an extremely good guitarist, and was invited by Dragon Force (a very famous rock band) to tour with them. It was his dream to do so, but he only had experience playing on videos instead of in front of audiences. So the idea of suddenly playing in front of large audiences suddenly gave him too much anxiety and he had to cancel. If he had gradually worked his way up with playing live with bigger and bigger audiences, I think he would have been okay with it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 23, 2020, 02:56:36 PM
Don't see any Trumpkin objections to voter suppression here, do you?
"It's a republic, not a democracy!"
Most of them are fine with discouraging or preventing certain demographics from voting.
Quote from: Daverz on October 23, 2020, 05:25:08 PM
"It's a republic, not a democracy!"
Most of them are fine with discouraging or preventing certain demographics from voting.
Well, most GOP over the past 3 decades would extol the virtues of the Electoral College, even though it disproportionately gives power to smaller, rural states to the point that the states that decide our president are the select few in the midwest and one in the South. The move toward a real democracy will allow this country to have representation that reflects the majority of the country, not the white male 55+ population; a population fast becoming the minority.
Quote from: Dowder on October 24, 2020, 03:02:47 AM
All I know is, at the debate Biden said he'll seek a path to citizenship for the 11 million illegal immigrants here, those who broke the law to come. I'm sure many of those will try to vote fraudulently since Joe is promising to reward them if he wins. I'm sure many will also benefit from the free healthcare and welfare benefits Grandpa Joe is offering to everyone. Expect another 11 million illegals to arrive for the free lunch the Dems are promising.
Oh but please tell me about those illegal GOP drop boxes or voter harassment taking place. ::)
How much does YOUR standard of living drop when these 11 million people become citizens? Will you lose your car? Your house? A normal person with empathy would think about these 11 million people and how much it means for them to become citizens, but of course you can only think about yourself because that's the way you have been programmed. You have a very bad and toxic operating system in your head and that makes you have these opinions which lack decency and empathy. Those immigrants came to the US mostly because of the actions of YOUR country have made living in their own country impossible. YOUR country breaks the international law regularly and you have the nerve to blame these people about breaking the law of coming to your country. Maybe if the US had never orchestrated right wing US corporate friendly puppets into those countries and instead helped those countries to develop into striving democracies the US wouldn't have those millions of immigrants? Ever thought about that?
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 03:18:10 AM
How much does YOUR standard of living drop when these 11 million people become citizens? Will you lose your car? Your house? A normal person with empathy would think about these 11 million people and how much it means for them to become citizens, but of course you can only think about yourself because that's the way you have been programmed. You have a very bad and toxic operating system in your head and that makes you have these opinions which lack decency and empathy. Those immigrants came to the US mostly because of the actions of YOUR country have made living in their own country impossible. YOUR country breaks the international law regularly and you have the nerve to blame these people about breaking the law of coming to your country. Maybe if the US had never orchestrated right wing US corporate friendly puppets into those countries and instead helped those countries to develop into striving democracies the US wouldn't have those millions of immigrants? Ever thought about that?
Perhaps the most jumbled post on immigration yet written on this forum.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 23, 2020, 05:39:26 AM
40% of US adults affirmatively distrust Fox News as an information source."
Does this mean 60 % of US adults are insane or utterly dumb? Then again, the Fox News wouldn't exist if most Americans were sane and educated about the world. The viewership would be too low to make it a profitable business.
To my understanding about 25 % of Americans are insane, so I guess the rest 35 % of the 60 % are just utterly bumb/uneducated/ignorant. A huge problem in the US is there isn't enough smart people *. The oligarchs want to keep people dumb so people don't realize how the system is rigged. The oligarchs want Americans to be educated enough to be able to work in a minimum wage job, but not smarter than that. Only a small portion of the population is allowed to be smart and educated, because their votes are too few to change the system.
There's insane/dumb people in every country, but as long as those people are a small minority it doesn't matter much. When those people get to dictate the results of elections, things can get really bad.
_______________________________________________________________________________
* If there were enough smart people in the US, Bernie Sanders would have won the presidency in 2016
and people in the US would have it much better now in the middle of the pandemic, but since there isn't
enough smart people the suffering of Americans have been and will be huge.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 03:59:28 AM
Perhaps the most jumbled post on immigration yet written on this forum.
Please try increasing your understanding of the World. Hopefully that helps you to understand better what I wrote and make it look less jumbled to your eyes. I am not Fox News. I don't fearmonger about immigration in order to justify Republican ideology, to make people believe their life sucks because of the immigrants so that the oligarchs responsible for the misery of others get of the hook.
For a forum filled with posters who very clearly believe themselves to possess superior intellects and a secure grasp on reality, the Fox fetish is most humorous. The highest rated recurring Fox News shows pull in around 4.5 million viewers a night. The Fox fetish on this forum merely displays the power of groupthink.
Quote from: greg on October 23, 2020, 04:40:34 PM
Random thought, but I find it impressive how political candidates can fire off answers so quickly in debates. Even Biden would zoom past me in speed of response.
If I were asked a question, I would need like ten minutes to think about how to answer a highly open-ended question without screwing it up because there are just way too many starting points, way too many pitfalls, way too many possible ways of interpreting and responding to the question.
Not saying they have good responses, just that fluidly coming up with some responses with no time to think is kinda impressive IMO.
Does anyone remember Stockdale, Perot's '92 VP? He went up against Quayle and Gore in the VP debate. "Who am I? Why am I here?"
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 04:10:25 AM
For a forum filled with posters who very clearly believe themselves to possess superior intellects and a secure grasp on reality, the Fox fetish is most humorous. The highest rated recurring Fox News shows pull in around 4.5 million viewers a night. The Fox fetish on this forum merely displays the power of groupthink.
The spread of idealogy doesn't stop to those who watch. People talk to each other. People communicate in social media. You may have only 2 million people watching your show, but those people spread your message to other people and suddenly 20 million people have been influenced. Fearmongering spreads effectively among people who fear.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 04:27:41 AM
The spread of idealogy doesn't stop to those who watch. People talk to each other. People communicate in social media. You may have only 2 million people watching your show, but those people spread your message to other people and suddenly 20 million people have been influenced. Fearmongering spreads effectively among people who fear.
A perfect example of GMG factlessness.
Rumour has it Bernie Sanders could become the labor secretary in Biden administration. Sounds too good to be true to my ears.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 04:30:12 AM
A perfect example of GMG factlessness.
You keep pointing out factlessness, but you never tell the facts. If you think you have the facts better than others, please educate us teacher!
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 04:27:41 AM
The spread of idealogy doesn't stop to those who watch. People talk to each other. People communicate in social media. You may have only 2 million people watching your show, but those people spread your message to other people and suddenly 20 million people have been influenced. Fearmongering spreads effectively among people who fear.
The 25% Revolution—How Big Does a Minority Have to Be to Reshape Society?A committed few can influence the many and sweep away social conventions, new research showsThe magic number, the tipping point, turned out to be 25 percent. Minority groups smaller than that converted, on average, just 6 percent of the population. Among other things, Centola says, that 25 percent figure refutes a century of economic theory. "The classic economic model—the main thing we are responding to with this study—basically says that once an equilibrium is established, in order to change it you need 51 percent. And what these results say is no, a small minority can be really effective, even when people resist the minority view." The team's computer modeling indicated a 25 percent minority would retain its power to reverse social convention for populations as large as 100,000.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-25-revolution-how-big-does-a-minority-have-to-be-to-reshape-society/
Quote from: milk on October 24, 2020, 04:33:10 AM
The 25% Revolution—How Big Does a Minority Have to Be to Reshape Society?
A committed few can influence the many and sweep away social conventions, new research shows
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-25-revolution-how-big-does-a-minority-have-to-be-to-reshape-society/
No mention of Fox News in that article. Also, it's just another university study comprised of a small number of people (194), almost certainly disproportionately comprised of gullible college kids, as with many university studies. I'm sure this study is solid, though.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 04:31:27 AM
Rumour has it Bernie Sanders could become the labor secretary in Biden administration. Sounds too good to be true to my ears.
You created your own rumor. News outlets report this: Bernie Sanders makes a play for Biden Labor secretary (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/22/bernie-sanders-biden-labor-secretary-431266)
Yet more GMG factlessness.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 04:36:35 AM
No mention of Fox News in that article. Also, it's just another university study comprised of a small number of people (194), almost certainly disproportionately comprised of gullible college kids, as with many university studies. I'm sure this study is solid, though.
I don't know. I'm worried about how woke-ness became such a big thing as to influence society the way it has. I suspect the number of people who really buy into it is smaller than it appears but I'm not claiming to know. I'm just interested in the question.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 04:39:55 AM
You created your own rumor. News outlets report this: Bernie Sanders makes a play for Biden Labor secretary (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/22/bernie-sanders-biden-labor-secretary-431266)
Yet more GMG factlessness.
I didn't read past the headlines, but I saw some news stories saying Biden wants to consider republicans for cabinet posts, like Jeff Flake.
Quote from: Dowder on October 24, 2020, 03:02:47 AM
All I know is, at the debate Biden said he'll seek a path to citizenship for the 11 million illegal immigrants here, those who broke the law to come. I'm sure many of those will try to vote fraudulently since Joe is promising to reward them if he wins. I'm sure many will also benefit from the free healthcare and welfare benefits Grandpa Joe is offering to everyone. Expect another 11 million illegals to arrive for the free lunch the Dems are promising.
Oh but please tell me about those illegal GOP drop boxes or voter harassment taking place. ::)
Perhaps it will ease your mind to know that some or most(?) of these undocumented immigrants are paying taxes and doing essential jobs in agriculture, meat packing, home health care and so on. Do you think it's easy recruiting a permanent underclass from the domestic labor pool alone?
Quote from: milk on October 24, 2020, 04:42:06 AM
I don't know. I'm worried about how woke-ness became such a big thing as to influence society the way it has. I suspect the number of people who really buy into it is smaller than it appears but I'm not claiming to know. I'm just interested in the question.
Marketing and advertising professionals have known for at least a century about the power of what are now called "influencers". It was not for nothing that the Committee on Public Information recruited certain types of people to spread war propaganda, for instance.
Quote from: milk on October 24, 2020, 04:44:40 AM
I didn't read past the headlines, but I saw some news stories saying Biden wants to consider republicans for cabinet posts, like Jeff Flake.
It's common for presidents to appoint advisors from the opposing party. Even Trump has. Nothing new.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 04:31:27 AM
Rumour has it Bernie Sanders could become the labor secretary in Biden administration. Sounds too good to be true to my ears.
Hopefully Biden is going to mostly pick people who are under age 60.
Quote from: milk on October 24, 2020, 04:44:40 AM
I didn't read past the headlines, but I saw some news stories saying Biden wants to consider republicans for cabinet posts, like Jeff Flake.
Trump must be defeated by taking people who agree with Trump over 90 % of the time to your cabinet. Crazy.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 04:39:55 AM
You created your own rumor. News outlets report this: Bernie Sanders makes a play for Biden Labor secretary (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/22/bernie-sanders-biden-labor-secretary-431266)
Yet more GMG factlessness.
You linked to the
SOURCE of "my rumour". Thanks! ;D
Quote from: Dowder on October 24, 2020, 03:02:47 AM
All I know is, at the debate Biden said he'll seek a path to citizenship for the 11 million illegal immigrants here, those who broke the law to come. I'm sure many of those will try to vote fraudulently since Joe is promising to reward them if he wins. I'm sure many will also benefit from the free healthcare and welfare benefits Grandpa Joe is offering to everyone. Expect another 11 million illegals to arrive for the free lunch the Dems are promising.
Oh but please tell me about those illegal GOP drop boxes or voter harassment taking place. ::)
Well, those illegal drop boxes down in California are happening as are the GOP people who are illegally videotaping people as they drop off their ballots.
Your scary fantasy about illegal immigrants voting fraudulently are just fantasies giving you a scare boner.
The only stories I have heard about people doing voter impersonation type fraud are stupid GOP-ers, like that guy who wanted to vote for his long-deceased aunt or something, who may be looking at serious charges.
Quote from: milk on October 24, 2020, 04:44:40 AM
I didn't read past the headlines, but I saw some news stories saying Biden wants to consider republicans for cabinet posts, like Jeff Flake.
I fervently hope Biden drops the "across the isle" fiction as soon as he's in.
If the Dems win a senate majority Biden's only got two years to do what he's gotta do, and the GOP will only talk in order to slow him down in to ineffectuousness (if that's a word), the way they did with 'Bama.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 05:06:56 AM
Trump must be defeated by taking people who agree with Trump over 90 % of the time to your cabinet. Crazy.
You linked to the SOURCE of "my rumour". Thanks! ;D
More ESL confusion.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 05:24:12 AM
More ESL confusion.
More poninting out something, but not explaing what's the error.
Quote from: Dowder on October 24, 2020, 03:02:47 AM
All I know is, at the debate Biden said he'll seek a path to citizenship for the 11 million illegal immigrants here, those who broke the law to come. I'm sure many of those will try to vote fraudulently since Joe is promising to reward them if he wins. I'm sure many will also benefit from the free healthcare and welfare benefits Grandpa Joe is offering to everyone. Expect another 11 million illegals to arrive for the free lunch the Dems are promising.
Oh but please tell me about those illegal GOP drop boxes or voter harassment taking place. ::)
Pure ignorance. Straight from the Faux News, Lush Boombox wing of the GOP. You a member of QAnon too?
Quote from: Herman on October 24, 2020, 05:01:27 AM
Hopefully Biden is going to mostly pick people who are under age 60.
No foolin'
Make sure and pick judges under 40 like Moscow Mitch has done.
Reid says Biden should end Senate filibuster after 3 weeks (https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-filibusters-legislation-only-on-ap-d85c3f63df1c6e71f39d2f7063503d81)
Quote from: Lisa Mascaro"Biden — who wants always to get along with people — I understand that," Reid said by telephone from Nevada.
"We should give the Republicans a little bit of time, to see if they're going to work with him," he said. "But the time's going to come when he's going to have to move in and get rid of the filibuster."
Asked how long Biden should wait it out before changing the rules, Reid said: "No more than three weeks."
More evidence that Democrats have lost their minds. The President does not set Senate rules, and the mere suggestion that somehow Super-Creepy 46, or any president, should establish Senate rules is entirely antithetical to the principle of separation of powers. After all the whining by Democrats about Congress ceding too much power to Trump, here a senior Democrat explicitly states that Super-Creepy 46 should change rules he has no power to change. I'll give Reid the benefit of the doubt; he is just another member of the Democrat gerontocracy and suffers from dementia, so he does not know what he is saying. Nevertheless, many Dems will slavishly agree.
That written, Cryin' Chuck
should abolish the legislative filibuster. There will be good times for decades to come.
Immigrants reward us as much as we reward them. The sooner they win the right to vote the better for everyone, including immigrant haters who live in underpopulated zones with weak economies.
Quote from: Herman on October 24, 2020, 05:01:27 AM
Hopefully Biden is going to mostly pick people who are under age 60.
I wonder why he didn't decline the nomination, urging instead the Dems to pick up someone under 60.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:23:04 AM
I wonder why he didn't decline the nomination, urging instead the Dems to pick up someone under 60.
That's easy. Buttigieg ran in the primaries. He just didn't win.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:23:04 AM
I wonder why he didn't decline the nomination, urging instead the Dems to pick up someone under 60.
Dems, more than Republicans, are stuck with aged boomers and silent generation types so arrogant and selfish that they cannot cede power. Fortunately, they are all very old and will start dying off rapidly soon enough. See, for instance, the Notorious RBG.
Quote from: Herman on October 24, 2020, 07:26:11 AM
That's easy. Buttigieg ran in the primaries. He just didn't win.
Which only shows that the Dems are as prone to gerontocracy and business-as-usual as the GOP. If they were really concerned about the future, they should have had at least 5 options under 60.
Yes, I know, I'm a bothsiderist.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:29:19 AM
Dems, more than Republicans, are stuck with aged boomers and silent generation types so arrogant and selfish that they cannot cede power.
Idk, Clinton was much younger than Biden. Obama too. What am I missing?
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:42:24 AM
Idk, Clinton was much younger than Biden. Obama too. What am I missing?
Congress.
Quote from: Herman on October 24, 2020, 07:26:11 AM
That's easy. Buttigieg ran in the primaries. He just didn't win.
Buttigieg doesn't believe in anything except his own political career. Everything is about political calculation: Medicare for all is popular? Ok, I'm for it. Oh, I need money to run and my corporate donors hate medicare for all? Ok, I distance myself from it and talk about "choice." People saw through this opportunistic psychopath who tried to steal the victory from Bernie in Iowa and that's why he didn't have a chance.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 07:58:44 AM
Buttigieg doesn't believe in anything except his own political career. Everything is about political calculation: Medicare for all is popular? Ok, I'm for it. Oh, I need money to run and my corporate donors hate medicare for all? Ok, I distant myself from it and talk about "choice." People saw through this opportunistic psychopath who tried to steal the victory from Bernie in Iowa and that's why he didn't have a chance.
:laugh:
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 07:50:25 AM
Congress.
Care to elaborate a bit, please? I am not an American, I have no clue about what Congess has got to do with nominating the presidential candidate of a party.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 08:10:35 AM
Care to elaborate a bit, please? I am not an American, I have no clue about what Congess has got to do with nominating the presidential candidate of a party.
My initial post was broader than just the presidency. Even so, Congress is the source of many presidential candidates. You can use Google to look up current ages and age distribtions.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 08:00:09 AM
:laugh:
Was my post
laughably fact free this time?
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 08:21:45 AM
Was my post laughably fact free this time?
Zoiks, you're making me agree with Todd, although his reasons are likely different. First of all, your statement shows questionable judgment about character. Buttigieg a psychopath? ::) Stealing from Bernie? As if Bernie had some inherent right to victory in Iowa. ::)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 08:21:45 AM
Was my post laughably fact free this time?
Buttigieg suits me fine. I'm for and against the same things he is, though not for the same reasons.
Here's How Much You Would Pay Under Biden's and Trump's Tax Plans (https://www.barrons.com/articles/total-and-google-cloud-join-forces-on-solar-power-the-green-energy-race-is-hotting-up-51602589672)
Middle-Income Folks
Biden released his initial tax plan in April, but has updated it to address the financial hardships related to this year's economic contraction. He proposes a long list of new or enhanced tax credits. Among them:
• A temporary increase (which would expire after the economy recovers) in the child tax credit from a nonrefundable $2,000 per child up to age 16 to a refundable $3,600 per kid up to age 6 and $3,000 for kids up to age 17. A refundable credit is paid as a refund, even if the person doesn't owe taxes.
• An increase in the value of the child and dependent care tax credit from a maximum nonrefundable $2,100 for two or more children, to a maximum refundable $8,000.
• A $5,000 credit for informal caregivers.
• A $15,000 credit for first-time home buyers, and a credit to ensure that rent and utility bills don't exceed 30% of monthly income.
• Expanding eligibility of the Earned Income Tax Credit to childless workers over age 65. Currently, the credit isn't available to these taxpayers.
There is no intentional tax increase for folks earning less than $400,000 in Biden's plan, but it is still a work in progress, says Garrett Watson, senior policy analyst at The Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan think tank. "All of Biden's proposals try to avoid a higher tax bill for taxpayers earning less than $400,000," Watson observes. "If there are places where they result in a higher tax bill, they've said they'll fix that."
Trump on occasion has expressed an interest in cutting middle class taxes. As if....
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 08:14:55 AM
Congress is the source of many presidential candidates. You can use Google to look up current ages and age distribtions.
Ah, yes, got it now. You mean Dems in the Congress are overall not much younger than Biden, right?
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 24, 2020, 08:35:56 AM
Zoiks, you're making me agree with Todd, although his reasons are likely different. First of all, your statement shows questionable judgment about character. Buttigieg a psychopath? ::) Stealing from Bernie? As if Bernie had some inherent right to victory in Iowa. ::)
Buttigieg seems to have some psychopathic tendencies starting from not addressing the racism in South Bend to advance his political career. At least it's selfish opportunism. Iowa was a close race. Buttigieg claimed victory long before the final results were known. He also donated money to the company responsible for the voting software. There were tons on fishy stuff in Iowa and it all seemed to hurt Bernie.
Quote from: drogulus on October 24, 2020, 08:41:10 AM
Buttigieg suits me fine. I'm for and against the same things he is, though not for the same reasons.
Buttigieg changed his views on healthcare during the campaign (as I said in my post). Which views do you agree with?
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 09:10:34 AM
Ah, yes, got it now. You mean Dems in the Congress are overall not much younger than Biden, right?
Some key Dem congressional leaders are even older than Biden.
Governator Schwarzenegger is recovering from heart surgery and is doing well.
(https://imagez.tmz.com/image/b7/4by3/2020/10/23/b72f006d81c24036a9f1b5cad8c4fa56_md.jpg)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 24, 2020, 09:22:35 AM
Buttigieg changed his views on healthcare during the campaign (as I said in my post). Which views do you agree with?
I want strong advocacy for a ferocious plan to move the center towards righteousness, so when the new center is formed I'll be happy to live there. Go Pete!
Polling says the largest bloc of voters is neutral on on health care plans, about the same for both parties. The pro and con percentages differ between the parties as you would expect.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 09:41:57 AM
Some key Dem congressional leaders are even older than Biden.
I see. Now, let's do some bothsiderism: what about GOP's congressmen, are they overall any younger than Trump?
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 07:23:04 AM
I wonder why he didn't decline the nomination, urging instead the Dems to pick up someone under 60.
The time for urging the dems to choose anyone else expired with the primaries.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
I see. Now, let's do some bothsiderism: what about GOP's congressmen, are they overall any younger than Trump?
Some are older, especially in the Senate, but a good number are younger.
The greatest disparity in leadership age is on the House side. Dems love old folks.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 24, 2020, 10:24:41 AM
The time for urging the dems to choose anyone else expired with the primaries.
Well, this means the USA is a gerontocracy-cum-partycracy. Your choice is free but limited only to whomever the Dems or the Reps see fit to promote as your only choice. ;D
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 10:25:09 AM
Some are older, especially in the Senate, but a good number are younger.
The greatest disparity in leadership age is on the House side. Dems love old folks.
Thanks. See my reply above.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 10:30:57 AM
Thanks. See my reply above.
The US has been a two party system for a long time because both leaders from both parties prefer it that way. That's one of the best known facts of life in US politics and has been since before you were born.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 10:38:41 AM
The US has been a two party system for a long time because both leaders from both parties prefer it that way. That's one of the best known facts of life in US politics and has been since before you were born.
I am very well aware of that. Contrary to the younger generations' mindset, I am old enough to know that history began long before the day I was born . However this doesn't mean I approve of everything that came long before the day I was born. Actually, I think a lot of things that came long before the day I was born are either obsolete or plain wrong. A two party system is both, imho. Not that my non-US opinion has any importance --- it has none, yet I am entitled to express it, right?
Bad news for Mini Bear: Pennsylvania Supreme Court rules mail-in ballots can't be rejected over mismatched signatures.
No news: Trump campaign flouted agreement to follow health guidelines at rally, documents show.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 10:46:53 AMNot that my non-US opinion has any importance --- it has none, yet I am entitled to express it, right?
Oh, sure, but it's old hat. You might as well throw in support for term limits for members of Congress while you're at it.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/half-americans-want-trump-criminally-182254630.html
I'm one of them who wants him behind bars.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:01:34 AM
Oh, sure, but it's old hat. You might as well throw in support for term limits for members of Congress while you're at it.
Typical response from an "I don't care what the rest of the world thinks" Republican. We all should care. Trump has destroyed our alliances and you, like Putin would like nothing more than to get rid of them.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:06:25 AMTypical response from an "I don't care what the rest of the world thinks" Republican. We all should care.
We should not care.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:06:25 AMTrump has destroyed our alliances and you, like Putin would like nothing more than to get rid of them.
I can only wish that Trump had destroyed the post-war international order. He has done damage, but it survives.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:09:30 AM
We should not care.
I can only wish that Trump had destroyed the post-war international order. He has done damage, but it survives.
Right. And you would support dictatorships; that is obvious. I'm sure you're a Putin-loving autocratic supporting fool.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:01:34 AM
Oh, sure, but it's old hat. You might as well throw in support for term limits for members of Congress while you're at it.
I might yet I won't because I don't support term limits for members of a parliament, be it the Romanian one or the US Congress.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:15:22 AM
Right. And you would support dictatorships; that is obvious. I'm sure you're a Putin-loving autocratic supporting fool.
Yep, you're an Oregon Democrat.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:15:32 AM
I might yet I won't because I don't support term limits for members of a parliament, be it the Romanian one or the US Congress.
Sensible.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:09:30 AM
I can only wish that Trump had destroyed the post-war international order. He has done damage, but it survives.
Deo gratias!
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
Yep, you're an Oregon Democrat.
Damn proud of it. But, I'm a Seattle-born Democrat. You'll see that most people in your state of California also support the correct-thinking party. I see you as a Steve Bannon acolyte. Believe in the 4th Turning philosophy too?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:21:15 AM
Damn proud of it. But, I'm a Seattle-born Democrat. You'll see that most people in your state of California also support the correct-thinking party. I see you as a Steve Bannon acolyte. Believe in the 4th Turning philosophy too?
I'm not a Californian. I have no idea where you got that idea. Nor do I know where got your other ideas.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:21:15 AM
Damn proud of it. But, I'm a Seattle-born Democrat. You'll see that most people in your state of California also support the correct-thinking party. I see you as a Steve Bannon acolyte.
1. If I'm not mistaken, Todd lives in Portland, Oregon.
2. The correct-thinking party? I have never known any such party in my whole 40-something life --- but admittedly I'm not American.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:28:37 AM1. If I'm not mistaken, Todd lives in Portland, Oregon.
Thank goodness, no. Portland is a bum-filled shithole. I live in the 'burbs.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:28:37 AM
1. If I'm not mistaken, Todd lives in Portland, Oregon.
2. The correct-thinking party? I have never known any such party in my whole 40-something life --- but admittedly I'm not American.
Then he's probably a Proud Boy or a Patriot Prayer acolyte. Support Jeremy Christian too?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
Then he's probably a Proud Boy or a Patriot Prayer acolyte. Support Jeremy Christian too?
Definitely an Oregon Democrat.
(https://i.insider.com/5f93ea254743a3001216b757?width=1200&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
Todd's type
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:31:13 AM
Definitely an Oregon Democrat.
Answer the question. Support Proud Boys, right?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:32:07 AM
Answer the question. Support Proud Boys, right?
No. Again, I have no idea where you got that idea.
Did you support Merkley's opponent too? For the Senate? You know the QAnon-loving candidate?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:33:34 AM
Did you support Merkley's opponent too? For the Senate? You know the QAnon-loving candidate?
Good lord no.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
Then he's probably a Proud Boy or a Patriot Prayer acolyte. Support Jeremy Christian too?
I'm not American yet this type of thinking is only too familiar to me. Whoever is not with us is against us --- a point in the doctrine of the Romanian Communist Party.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:34:15 AM
I'm not American yet this type of thinking is only too familiar to me. Whoever is not with us is against us --- a point in the doctrine of the Romanian Communist Party.
Based on posts to date, flyingdutchman is a simpleton.
I voted for one Republican in my life--Mark Hatfield. Of course, his colleague Bob Packwood, also a Republican was a sleezeball Republican as is typical with that party.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:35:46 AM
Based on posts to date, flyingdutchman is a simpleton.
Right. With a PhD in Higher Education. Woh is me, a "simpleton."
And for Florestan, the thing we see in the US is a building up of an autocracy. You have no experience with US-based autocracy and it's new to even us, but a true democracy doesn't stand for one thing (like the GOP had for years) only to give into Trumpism. Ronald Reagan wouldn't recognize what the GOP has become.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
Right. With a PhD in Higher Education. Woh is me, a "simpleton."
A PhD who misspells "woe"? OK, if you say so.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:43:07 AM
A PhD who misspells "woe"? OK, if you say so.
Typical Todd behavior on the forum, to be the grammar police. You brought up Godwin's law, I'll bring up your poor philosophical leanings.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Typical Todd behavior on the forum, to be the grammar police. You brought up Godwin's law, I'll bring up your poor philosophical leanings.
You clearly do not know my philosophical leanings.
(https://d3qdvvkm3r2z1i.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/85e4522595efc69f496374d01ef2bf13/g/r/grammarpo_thumb_1.png)
Todd, aka the Grammar Cop
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:48:48 AM
(https://d3qdvvkm3r2z1i.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/85e4522595efc69f496374d01ef2bf13/g/r/grammarpo_thumb_1.png)
Todd, aka the Grammar Cop
Diner Cop and Grammar Cop, yet I receive no salary. Very unfair.
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 11:48:41 AM
You clearly do not know my philosophical leanings.
Your philosophy is clear in your signature. You use Barr as one of your saviors. His effort to legitimize the kingship of the president is perhaps the most heinous.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:49:48 AM
Your philosophy is clear in your signature. You use Barr as one of your saviors.
Incorrect on both counts.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
And for Florestan, the thing we see in the US is a building up of an autocracy. You have no experience with US-based autocracy
No, I don't have any experience with a building-up US-based autocracy. However I have extensive experience with a full-fledged Communist totalitarianism. Based on that I can safely assure you that if I were to choose between living under Trump''s USA or under Ceaușescu's Romania I'd choose Trump's USA hands down and in a second and without as much as the blinking of an eye. And I'm absolutely sure you'd do the very same, if only you had extensive experience with a full-fledged Communist totalitarianism.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:51:42 AMAnd I'm absolutely sure you'd do the very same, if only you had extensive experience with a full-fledged Communist totalitarianism.
Full-fledged Communist totalitarianism sounds woeful.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:51:42 AM
No, I don't have any experience with a building-up US-based autocracy. However I have extensive experience with a full-fledged Communist totalitarianism. Based on that I can safely assure you that if I were to choose between living under Trump''s USA or under Ceaușescu's Romania I'd choose Trump's USA hands down and in a second and without as much as the blinking of an eye. And I'm absolutely sure you'd do the very same, if only you had extensive experience with a full-fledged Communist totalitarianism.
You're right, no experience with Romanian communism. BUT, if you have no actual experience with Trump, it's clear that he's doing his best to eliminate the press (part of the US constitution), coddle dictators, and push away long-held and treasured alliances. You don't push away your friends and allies to cuddle with Putin.
Dictatorships have long been the bane of all freedom-loving people. Trump would just as soon cozy up to Ceausescu types as support a true democracy.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 11:54:02 AM
Trump, it's clear that he's doing his best to eliminate the press (part of the US constitution), [...], and push away long-held and treasured alliances.
He failed miserably on both these counts.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 11:57:07 AM
He failed miserably on both these counts.
So the Germans and Montenegrins feel that he's failed at pushing them away? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iimj0j4NYME (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iimj0j4NYME)
How about the rest of the free world, as Trump fully embraced Putin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwxqOoIyWm0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwxqOoIyWm0)
So, the only ones who count are the Poles and Romanians and not the Germans or another ally? Do you really want to go there? The Poles? The ones who are becoming more one-party ruled as we speak?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52489336 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52489336)
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
So the Germans and Montenegrins feel that he's failed at pushing them away? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iimj0j4NYME (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iimj0j4NYME)
Don't know what you're talking about. The staunchest, most faithful and trustful USA allies in Europe are the Baltic States, Poland and Romania. Quite possibly Finland and Sweden as well. Not a single one of them uttered any word of complaint about USA's behavior within NATO* --- which is the one and only safeguard against any Russian aggression. Germany? The Berlin Republic is very different from the Bonn Republic in this respect --- ie, much closer to Russia. Montenegro, I mean who?
*NATO's deputy sceretary general is a Romanian, fwiw.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/conservative-movement-rise-hard-created-160001245.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/conservative-movement-rise-hard-created-160001245.html)
How the hard-right created Donald.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:13:27 PM
So, the only ones who count are the Poles and Romanians and not the Germans or another ally?
At this very moment, yes.
Quote
Do you really want to go there? The Poles? The ones who are becoming more one-party ruled as we speak?
You are the one who should not want to go there because you're absolutely clueless about what's really going on in Poland.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:16:23 PM
Don't know what you're talking about. The staunchest, most faithful and trustful USA allies in Europe are the Baltic States, Poland and Romania. Quite possibly Finland and Sweden as well. Not a single one of them uttered any word of complaint about USA's behavior within NATO* --- which is the one and only safeguard against any Russian aggression. Germany? The Berlin Republic is very different from the Bonn Republic in this respect --- ie, much closer to Russia. Montenegro, I mean who?
*NATO's deputy sceretary general is a Romanian, fwiw.
I see you deleted, saw that I responded, and decided to put back in the stupid comment you made.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:18:12 PM
At this very moment, yes.
You are the one who should not want to go there because you're absolutely clueless about what's really going on in Poland.
That's not what an alliance is supposed to be. Germany turns from the US because of an autocrat wannabe. France turns away and pokes fun at Trump because they see a buffoon in power. The Polish autocrat embraces Donald because he views him as in league with his aspirations. I wouldn't want to live in Poland, that's for sure.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:20:54 PM
That's not what an alliance is supposed to be. Germany turns from the US because of an autocrat wannabe. The Polish autocrat embraces Donald because he views him as in league with his aspirations. I wouldn't want to live in Poland, that's for sure.
Really? Go ahead, tell me why does the Romanian autocrat embrace Trump? And why you wouldn't live in Romania, while you're at it.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:25:28 PM
Really? Go ahead, tell me why does the Romanian autocrat embrace Trump? And why you wouldn't live in Romania, while you're at it.
Did I actually say Romanian? Read again please.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:20:54 PM
France turns away and pokes fun at Trump because they see a buffoon in power. T
France? You mean they who invented modern nationalism and xenophobia, right? They who experienced and exported authoritarian nepotism, right? They who can teach a thing or two about colonialism, right?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:28:39 PM
Did I actually say Romanian? Read again please.
I read and understood alright. Poland is an autocracy which applauds the USA autocracy. Now please explain me why Romania is a staunch and faithful ally of USA under Trump's presidency.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:30:19 PM
France? You mean they who invented modern nationalism and xenophobia, right? They who experienced and exported authoritarian nepotism, right? They who can teach a thing or two about colonialism, right?
France, Germany, Poland, et al., are a part of NATO. Put into place as a bulwark against Soviet aggression. If Romania wants to be part of that alliance, then they accept the fact that there are multiple stakeholders in it.
NATO also agreed to come up to 2% gross GDP contributions by 2024 and Trump is going back on that agreement as we speak. While Romania and other states are contributing that 2%, the agreement is to be at that level by 2024.
Ignorance is thine.
https://www.economist.com/the-world-if/2019/07/06/what-if-america-leaves-nato (https://www.economist.com/the-world-if/2019/07/06/what-if-america-leaves-nato)
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:34:59 PM
France, Germany, Poland, et al., are a part of NATO. Put into place as a bulwark against Soviet aggression.
Of course. Whatever their political system, whomever their political leader, they are theoretically* united against
Russianaggression (may I respectfully point it out to you that the USSR has ceased to exist since 1991?).
* you tell me how is a country supposed to oppose the Russians when that country is heavily dependent on Russian gas and oil? Does Schroeder ring a bell to you?
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:38:14 PM
https://www.economist.com/the-world-if/2019/07/06/what-if-america-leaves-nato (https://www.economist.com/the-world-if/2019/07/06/what-if-america-leaves-nato)
What is the only official way of leaving NATO for any country, USA included?
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:40:58 PM
Of course. Whatever their political system, whomever their political leader, they are theoretically* united against Russianaggression (may I respectfully point it out to you that the USSR has ceased to exist since 1991?).
* you tell me how is a country supposed to oppose the Russians when that country is heavily dependent on Russian gas and oil? Does Schroeder ring a bell to you?
Yes, of course, the USSR ceased to exist in 1991. Since then, Putin has sought to bring it back to its once "glorified" state.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:50:24 PM
Yes, of course, the USSR ceased to exist in 1991. Since then, Putin has sought to bring it back to its once "glorified" state.
Incorrect. Until 1999 the President of the Russian Federation was Boris Yeltsin.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:40:58 PM
* you tell me how is a country supposed to oppose the Russians when that country is heavily dependent on Russian gas and oil? Does Schroeder ring a bell to you?
Thus the importance of the full NATO alliance.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:54:00 PM
Incorrect. Until 1999 the President of the Russian Federation was Boris Yeltsin.
Sure, and we all know that. Yeltsin was a buffoon that was swept away by his own inabilities to democratize the country and Putin's own desire to rule the country like Stalin. It also doesn't take into consideration the US mistake of taking it all for granted and making sure someone like Putin was the choice Russians would make. He's there until 2036 now, I believe, right? US leadership is partly to blame for the return of a dictatorship like Putin.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:54:24 PM
Thus the importance of the full NATO alliance.
Yes, exactly. The staunchest, most trustful and faithful USA aliies are those NATO countries which have nothing to gain and everything to lose from Russia (ie the Baltic States, Poland, Romania plus Finland and Sweden) not those countries which have a lot to gain and little to lose from Russia, ie Germany and France.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 01:00:04 PM
Yes, exactly. The staunchest, most trustful and faithful USA aliies are those NATO countries which have nothing to gain and everything to lose from Russia (ie the Baltic States, Poland, Romania plus Finland and Sweden) not those countries which have a lot to gain and little to lose from Russia, ie Germany and France.
That's just stupid. NATO was created post-WW2 to maintain the one for all alliance that would be created for all to enjoy the fruits of the membership. NOT for who you believe lives up to it. We're talking about an alliance to a central cause which will support the treaty, not deciding who is "most faithful" to the US in your eyes or that of Donald Trump.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 12:55:29 PM
Sure, and we all know that.
Apparently you didn't know.
QuoteYeltsin was a buffoon that was swept away by his own inabilities to democratize the country
Do you entertain any notion that Russia can ever be democratized?
QuotePutin's own desire to rule the country like Stalin.
Show me Putin's Mandelstam.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 01:04:38 PM
Apparently you didn't know.
So I left out Yeltsin's poor rule that led to Putin. Apparently, you think you are the only one who knows European history and politics. We all know what happened post-Berlin Wall
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 01:04:38 PM
Show me Putin's Mandelstam.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/7ic2qz9gBUDbIxkcQn5s04qoCeU=/0x0:2835x1890/1520x1013/filters:focal(1098x489:1550x941):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/67276105/1228115929.jpg.0.jpg)
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
That's just stupid. NATO was created post-WW2 to maintain the one for all alliance that would be created for all to enjoy the fruits of the membership. NOT for who you believe lives up to it. We're talking about an alliance to a central cause which will support the treaty, not deciding who is "most faithful" to the US in your eyes or that of Donald Trump.
NATO was created to "keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down". The USSR no longer exists (Russia is dangerous but not as dangerous as the USSR), the Germans are up again (economically and politically speaking), so the only objective still remaining is to keep Americans in. The Baltic States, |Poland, Romania, Finalnd and Sweden are committed to it; Germany and France, not that much.
So now you're a Putin supporter. Figures.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 01:12:32 PM
NATO was created to "keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down". The USSR no longer exists (Russia is dangerous but not as dangerous as the USSR), the Germans are up again (economically and politically speaking), so the only objective still remaining is to keep Americans in. The Baltic States, |Poland, Romania, Finalnd and Sweden are committed to it; Germany and France, not that much.
Utter nationalistic bullshit. Russia is clearly trying to destroy the EU, NATO, and any other US alliances.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 24, 2020, 01:11:10 PM
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/7ic2qz9gBUDbIxkcQn5s04qoCeU=/0x0:2835x1890/1520x1013/filters:focal(1098x489:1550x941):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/67276105/1228115929.jpg.0.jpg)
Navalny is a poet sent to Gulag by Putin's order because he wrote four lines alluding to the latter. Interesting.
Mandelstam was also killed by Stalin. So what's your point? My point is Navalny was poisoned by Putin to stymy the opposition. No less the same as what Stalin did to his opponents. So, now you're supporting Stalin and his rule of oppression?
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 01:04:38 PMDo you entertain any notion that Russia can ever be democratized?
Surely no one thinks that. Well, maybe some people.
Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2020, 12:54:00 PM
Until 1999 the President of the Russian Federation was Boris Yeltsin.
Yeltsin was the president, but oligarchs had the power. Yeltsin was just their puppet.
Watching the latest Borat movie on Amazon. Hilarious. Beware, the Mayor gets caught.
A "brief" list of actions Republican have taken to suppress voting:
Limiting who counts as a person for census purposes [N.B. this reduces constitutionally mandated representation in Congress. Nothing to do with non-citizen's voting.]
Gerrymandering targeting "African Americans with almost surgical precision"
Photo/voter ID laws
Restrictions on acceptable IDs
Onerous document requirements for voter registration
Street address requirements for registering in communities lacking street addresses
Limiting days/times/locations for voter registration services
Restrictions on ex-felon registration
Restrictions on voter registration drives
Violating the "Motor Voter" law by state DMVs
Restrictions on early voting times
Siting early voting locations remote to minority neighborhoods
Restrictions on absentee voting
Restrictions on absentee ballot drop boxes
Voter roll purges
Closing polling places
Limiting voting machines in minority precincts
Voter intimidation tactics at the polls
"Disenfranchisement by typo"
Decades-long effort to undermine confidence in the election process itself
H/T Digby: https://digbysblog.net/2020/10/how-dare-you-foil-our-evil-plan/
I can add one more to the list: pushing back the start of early voting by a week, as was done here in Florida a few years back.
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/vQ4yNxiVTQM6vSOfUsjjfg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTQ2OS4xMjE0OTUzMjcxMDI4/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/LsL7nMGDTkMtX6hpuv5Dxw--~B/aD0yMTM2O3c9MzIxMDtzbT0xO2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_independent_635/1af136f64ae9d9655ce0f0d09c9784fd)The Stepford Children
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-biden-debate-president-family-094527674.html
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c4/The_Stepford_Children.jpg/250px-The_Stepford_Children.jpg)
Quote from: Todd on October 24, 2020, 01:39:57 PM
Surely no one thinks that. Well, maybe some people.
Democratizing the US might be a tougher job.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 24, 2020, 10:50:53 AM
Bad news for Mini Bear: Pennsylvania Supreme Court rules mail-in ballots can't be rejected over mismatched signatures.
Mismatched??
PD
The Lincoln Project Isn't Helping Anyone but Themselves (https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-lincoln-project-isnt-helping-anyone-but-themselves?ref=home)
The Lincoln Project's antics treat the issues that keep everyday conservatives up at night—How will I afford to pay my bills? What will the world look like for my kids?—with disdain, if they address them at all.
What they've revealed in doing so is not that conservatives don't care about these kitchen-table issues, but that this once-powerful collection of GOP operatives does not care about the same issues that animate conservatives.
That's not how I see it. The message is not that Rick Wilson doesn't care about conservative issues, it's that conservative issues are something the Repub election industry cares nothing about. Wilson has the same contempt for Repub voters Trump and his minions have. The Lincoln Project is the Repub operative id on display.
We won't have a truly democratic US until we get rid of the Electoral College.
Democratic Senate emerges as possible hurdle for progressives (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/522548-democratic-senate-emerges-as-possible-roadblock-for-progressives)
2021 will be a hoot, as newly triumphant Dems attack each other. I like the bit in the article where some clown blabbers about Cryin' Chuck getting primaried in 2022.
Senate advances Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court nomination in key procedural vote (https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/25/politics/senate-procedural-vote-amy-coney-barrett-supreme-court/index.html)
She's almost there.
Quote from: Todd on October 25, 2020, 10:15:29 AM
Democratic Senate emerges as possible hurdle for progressives (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/522548-democratic-senate-emerges-as-possible-roadblock-for-progressives)
2021 will be a hoot, as newly triumphant Dems attack each other. I like the bit in the article where some clown blabbers about Cryin' Chuck getting primaried in 2022.
You would think, but in reality we all have a common enemy--a GOP that is complicit with the worst president this country has ever had. A sycophantic party that has ignored its history and its pledge to maintain open trade, global markets, and railing against deficit spending only to be undone by their own sucking up to Donald. Power begets destruction in the case of the GOP. May it ever be so.
Quote from: Todd on October 25, 2020, 10:36:06 AM
Senate advances Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court nomination in key procedural vote (https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/25/politics/senate-procedural-vote-amy-coney-barrett-supreme-court/index.html)
She's almost there.
Hypocrite GOP. A minority rule party that ignores the fact over 60% of the population disagrees with it on virtually all social issues.
Dems, get rid of the filibuster and make the SCOTUS 15
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 25, 2020, 10:37:03 AMYou would think, but in reality we all have a common enemy
Incorrect. Again.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 25, 2020, 10:08:40 AM
We won't have a truly democratic US until we get rid of the Electoral College.
Given a choice I'd look elsewhere for democratic reform.
How Congress can stop gerrymandering: Deny seats to states that do it. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/gerrymandering-redistricting-census-congress/2020/07/17/d1002146-c6f5-11ea-8ffe-372be8d82298_story.html)
Article I, Section 5 of the Constitution says that "each House shall be the judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members." This authority has rarely been used to exclude individuals chosen under dubious electoral circumstances, but it has potential. (In the 19th century, more than two dozen winning candidates in Southern states were denied seats because the House found evidence of intimidation of black voters or unconstitutional state election laws.) The power does not require statutory action involving the Senate or executive branch. And so the House, acting on its own, can design a process that governs the most egregious, anti-democratic distortions produced by gerrymandering — rejecting such delegations as failing to meet the qualifications for service. Just like ending the filibuster, Repubs will try to help by advising Dems that it's a terrible idea that will provoke a backlash, which I regard not as proof that these are good ideas to pursue, just strong evidence that they are.
Biden leads in Texas 48 to 45%
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 25, 2020, 10:40:55 AM
Said by one of the enemy.
Meh.
The numerous bold plans to fix the perceived ills of US politics, and the failure of most of those plans to come to fruition, will make the 117th Congress one of the most enjoyable ever. To be sure, Dems will push through some legislation, some perhaps even transformative, but the 6-3 SCOTUS majority can shitcan some or most of it, and then Republicans can begin necessary rollbacks later. It's all good.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 25, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
Hypocrite GOP. A minority rule party that ignores the fact over 60% of the population disagrees with it on virtually all social issue.
Dems, get rid of the filibuster and make the SCOTUS 15
I would prefer 19, so we can get deep thinkytanky opinion on how unwieldly the court is. Then we can allow senior members to retire without replacement until we get down to 11 mostly socialist judges.
Quote from: Todd on October 25, 2020, 10:43:38 AM
To be sure, Dems will push through some legislation, some perhaps even transformative, but the 6-3 SCOTUS majority can shitcan some or most of it, and then Republicans can begin necessary rollbacks later. It's all good.
That's the plan, one giant leap for mankind and a baby step back until the whole world is a communist paradise. I admire it's (lack of) purity.
Quote from: Todd on October 25, 2020, 10:43:38 AM
Meh.
The numerous bold plans to fix the perceived ills of US politics, and the failure of most of those plans to come to fruition, will make the 117th Congress one of the most enjoyable ever. To be sure, Dems will push through some legislation, some perhaps even transformative, but the 6-3 SCOTUS majority can shitcan some or most of it, and then Republicans can begin necessary rollbacks later. It's all good.
The SCOTUS was never meant to declare such things as Social Security as unconstitutional, but I'm sure such things as that and other progressive laws would be shitcanned by a purely partisan and packed SCOTUS. I look forward to a DEM move to bring balance to the courts
What party are you aware of that supports the suppression of the vote and minority rule? I can only think of one--South Africa and look what happened to it.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 25, 2020, 10:55:12 AMI look forward to a DEM move to bring balance to the courts
How very zen.
The US needs to send all rightwing white supremacists to their own small island.
In the meantime, show me where exactly what Moscow Mitch did wasn't hypocritical and nothing but a power grab. You can't and you and your 6-3 majority were stolen from the rightful president in 2016. My hope, albeit fleeting, is that Mosco Mitch is defeated on November 3
Now we have another mentally ill person suggesting that he too can be president:
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/kanye-west-says-his-calling-is-to-be-the-leader-of-the-free-world-in-threehour-joe-rogan-podcast-232106621.html
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 25, 2020, 10:43:16 AM
Biden leads in Texas 48 to 45%
(https://i.imgur.com/0jIWlYg.jpg)
If Texas goes full blue we might have to fall in love with the EC all over again. But that's very much in doubt for this year.
Well, let's just say if the GOP somehow scrape this out via small numbers in a few select states like Wisconsin, Michigan, and Ohio, then all the more that we do away with the Electoral College.
Quote from: drogulus on October 25, 2020, 11:16:33 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/0jIWlYg.jpg)
If Texas goes full blue we might have to fall in love with the EC all over again. But that's very much in doubt for this year.
From AP: "neither President Donald Trump or Democrat Joe Biden has swung through Texas, focusing on clear battleground states instead like Arizona and Florida."
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/25/texas-biden-trump-poll-432217
Hispanic voters moving into the Dem corner. Good, got to get rid of the fallacy that Dump is somehow for the Hispanic voter.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 25, 2020, 11:06:26 AM
In the meantime, show me where exactly what Moscow Mitch did wasn't hypocritical and nothing but a power grab. You can't and you and your 6-3 majority were stolen from the rightful president in 2016. My hope, albeit fleeting, is that Mosco Mitch is defeated on November 3
Oh jeez, just give it a rest. He knows all of this. He doesn't care about hypocrisy. He thinks it's all about power and that anything one can legally (well, I'm not sure he cares about legality either) get away with in politics or public office is acceptable. He laughs at any appeal to morality. Everyone who's been on the forum any length of time knows these things.
Now the dumb ass is claiming he was awarded a Nobel Prize (Noble to him).
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-claims-won-two-nobel-205756575.html
Dementia J Trump
This thread is depressing reading.
Let's hope the madman will be shown the exit.
What a real leader looks like:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-tweet-exactly-one-ago-190255917.html
Foretold the poor response from Dump and group.
Michael Lewis' book The Fifth Risk - on the danger of the then new Trump administration staffing agencies designed to anticipate and prepare for future crises with unqualified incompetents and friends and loyalists - has also proved prophetic.
So I'm doing a replay of Final Fantasy 12 and needed to google Hunt #8: A Scream from the Sky.
This news story from a years ago popped up and I can't stop laughing.
November 8, 2017 at 7:31 am
DALLAS (CBSDFW.COM) – There's an event Wednesday night, and we kid you not, called "Scream Helplessly at the Sky on the Anniversary of the Election."
People across the country who are frustrated with President Donald Trump plan to literally scream it out.
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/11/08/scream-at-the-sky-event-planned-for-wednesday-night/
Also reminds me of that time I was in Chicago walking past the Trump tower and some random guy yelled from a car driving by "F$#@ Trump!" :D
I don't know what doing that is supposed to solve, but okay.
btw, of course... here, GMG/the USA Politics thread is the sky.
Anyone who supports Trump for this presidency is mental. Total decimation of justice and the judicial system isn't a sign of someone who's fit for the presidency
https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-elected-trump-immediately-fire-005555228.html
Quote from: greg on October 25, 2020, 06:58:37 PM
I don't know what doing that is supposed to solve, but okay.
Some people have strong feelings about America remaining a democracy. Really weird.
At the time people did not know yet many more people were going to die because of Trump's carelessness than in Vietnam.
Quote from: Herman on October 26, 2020, 12:17:08 AM
Some people have strong feelings about America remaining a democracy. Really weird.
Reckon that the guy who cannot make the effort to vote doesn't twig that.
Quote from: Herman on October 26, 2020, 12:17:08 AM
Some people have strong feelings about America remaining a democracy. Really weird.
Really weird that we still have a democracy three years later...
also still don't see how literally shouting at the sky was supposed to solve anything.
Quote from: greg on October 26, 2020, 06:12:26 AM
Really weird that we still have a democracy three years later...
also still don't see how literally shouting at the sky was supposed to solve anything.
Yes! Obviously the way to solve problems is to tweet at a TV and call Fox & Friends. Libs don't know anything.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 26, 2020, 05:16:01 AM
Reckon that the guy who cannot make the effort to vote doesn't twig that.
I'm okay with voting for both/neither. But they only let you vote for one candidate, so...
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 26, 2020, 06:15:25 AM
Yes! Obviously the way to solve problems is to tweet at a TV and call Fox & Friends. Libs don't know anything.
Not familiar with that show (I don't watch TV), but sounds like something slightly less useless if information is being discussed...
Quote from: greg on October 26, 2020, 06:21:37 AM
Not familiar with that show (I don't watch TV), but sounds like something slightly less useless if information is being discussed...
Yeah, right. :laugh:
Quote from: greg on October 26, 2020, 06:12:26 AM
Really weird that we still have a democracy three years later...
also still don't see how literally shouting at the sky was supposed to solve anything.
Perhaps a good way (short-term anyway) to blow off some steam? ;)
PD
What's Going on with Republican Women? (https://thebulwark.com/whats-going-on-with-republican-women/)
To anyone breathing the mind-bending ether of Fox News, InfoWars, and the local Facebook Trump group, it's entirely reasonable for the president to hold potential superspreader events, just as long as he calls them "peaceful protests" to mock those who protested police violence against blacks.
It doesn't matter that Trump booster Herman Cain died from coronavirus, that Trump surrogate and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie spent a week in the hospital after contracting it, or even that Donald Trump got it and needed to be put on oxygen, airlifted to Walter Reed, and dosed with an experimental cocktail. Nothing will stop President Trump, or any of his supporters, from enjoying their COVID joyride now! (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-legacy-is-covid-and-qanon/)
In other words, a coloring book. I like those Mickey Mouse ones myself.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/lesley-stahl-claims-trumps-healthcare-plan-doesnt-contain-actual-plan-60-minutes-060421463.html
If I had taken this to my Primary when doing my dissertation, he would have told me to start over again.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 26, 2020, 11:12:54 AM
What's Going on with Republican Women? (https://thebulwark.com/whats-going-on-with-republican-women/)
One can just see a bunch of political consultants sitting around a table, trying to think of what would be the strongest pull on "suburban women".
At last they went for pedophilia, pinning it on Democrats.
No need for a scintilla of proof. The fear and anger factor is sufficiently strong.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 26, 2020, 12:45:40 PM
In other words, a coloring book. I like those Mickey Mouse ones myself.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/lesley-stahl-claims-trumps-healthcare-plan-doesnt-contain-actual-plan-60-minutes-060421463.html
If I had taken this to my Primary when doing my dissertation, he would have told me to start over again.
Of course there was no health plan in the box. Of course it doesn't exist and never will. We don't need Leslie Stahl's testimony on this. I doubt even the Trump supporters on this forum are deluded enough to believe he has a health plan or any interest in developing one. That would require a work ethic and an interest in the future of people who aren't named Trump.
Cheeto Mussolini strikes again!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-federal-salary-adviser-quits-160547928.html
The head of an advisory council on federal pay resigned from his post Monday in protest over President Donald Trump's recent executive order stripping civil service protections from key federal workers.
"I have concluded that as a matter of conscience, I can no longer serve him or his Administration," Federal Salary Council Chair Ron Sanders, a Trump appointee, wrote in his resignation letter to the director of the Personnel Executive Office of the President, the text of which was obtained by POLITICO.
"t is clear that its stated purpose notwithstanding, the Executive Order is nothing more than a smokescreen for what is clearly an attempt to require the political loyalty of those who advise the President, or failing that, to enable their removal with little if any due process," he wrote.
Trump named Sanders, who also served under the Bush administration, to the position in December 2017. The advisory group is responsible for providing recommendations to the White House on how best to tailor federal pay depending on regional costs of living.
The executive order, issued Wednesday, stripped job protections for many federal workers in a move that unions and Democrats denounced as an attempt to politicize the civil service.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-26/trump-and-republican-senate-care-only-about-maintaining-power
...There are no questions left in the 2020 election. A single, frenetic weekend answered them all. All that remains is to learn whether democracy or authoritarianism gains the upper hand on Nov. 3.
Moscow Mitch: "elections have consequences."
Eff you, Mitch. You will live to regret this ramrodding your power move down America's throat.
GOAL!!!!
Quote from: Todd on October 26, 2020, 04:48:52 PM
GOAL!!!!
CORRUPTION and HYPOCRISY. Fool, you can go where the GOP will go as soon as next week comes around. I guess you love an autocracy. Now that the SCOTUS safely secures the vote for Donald, gonna tell me that you are really a patriot?
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/nORogExTRwfyz0I.b_qbcA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTc5Mi44NTg0OTk1MjUxNjYy/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/lY.TvWwQMINmcEIuRja_nw--~B/aD0yNjA5O3c9MzE1OTthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_independent_635/eb7780c000a8d079267dda216618557a)
More fools for Dump.
Never spew the lies that this is about upholding the Constitution.
They treat him like "The Chosen One." They even have called him that. To idiots who support Trump, he is the second coming of Jesus.
Pack the court, Joe. Presuming, of course, you actually win what will likely be a stolen election by Donald Dump.
If Trump manages to win the election by manipulating the Electoral College, the Trumpsters will act surprised when Trump faces a hostile Congress that will immediately try to impeach him.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 26, 2020, 05:43:44 PM
Pack the court, Joe. Presuming, of course, you actually win what will likely be a stolen election by Donald Dump.
The court is already packed. Dems would just be rebalancing it to reflect where the country is at.
EDIT: details on McConnell's court packing scheme:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/court-barrett-senate-trump/2020/10/25/d9eed9c0-16bc-11eb-befb-8864259bd2d8_story.html
Quote from: flyingdutchman on October 26, 2020, 05:28:07 PM
They treat him like "The Chosen One." They even have called him that. To idiots who support Trump, he is the second coming of Jesus.
There's also plenty of reluctant/less enthusiastic supporters along with the crazy fanatics.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 26, 2020, 05:54:09 PM
If Trump manages to win the election by manipulating the Electoral College, the Trumpsters will act surprised when Trump faces a hostile Congress that will immediately try to impeach him.
To be clear there will be no impeachment of Trump, Barrett, Barr, or Kavanaugh unless Pelosi loses control of the Democratic caucus. Even if the Democrats gain a majority in the Senate, 15 or so Republican senators would have to vote to convict for it to succeed. As should be clear from the impeachment last winter and Barrett's confirmation now, the Democrats would be lucky to have even Romney vote with them.
Quote from: greg on October 26, 2020, 06:23:47 PM
There's also plenty of reluctant/less enthusiastic supporters along with the crazy fanatics.
Yes, the enablers who deserve even more scorn than the True Believers. They had four years to force the GOP to rein Trump in or replace him with someone less dumpster-firey, but went along with it all.
Quote from: JBS on October 26, 2020, 06:29:32 PMTo be clear there will be no impeachment of Trump, Barrett, Barr, or Kavanaugh unless Pelosi loses control of the Democratic caucus.
SCOTUS impeachments are rare as hen's teeth. Dems should do their utmost -
their utmost - to make it happen not once, not twice, but thrice in 2021.
Grrrr.
Quote from: JBS on October 26, 2020, 06:33:03 PM
Yes, the enablers who deserve even more scorn than the True Believers. They had four years to force the GOP to rein Trump in or replace him with someone less dumpster-firey, but went along with it all.
Aye, and Huggy Bear's lovin' it.
QAnon will have a field day with this. They probably are already trying to pin this to Hilary Clinton or Obama:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-marshals-rescue-45-missing-015238124.html
Saw this today on FB from the ACLU:
"No one should be told by a surgeon or a coach or anyone else that their clitoris is too big to be female, or that their chromosomes are more real than their gender, or that their hormones are too "masculine" to allow them to compete as who they are."
Picture the world as they do. I can't. More wokeism as the left attempts to destroy itself?
https://www.aclu.org/news/
Quote from: greg on October 26, 2020, 05:21:32 PM
How do people have such strong positive emotions? :o
... he also makes poopoo, just like me and you...
If I may speak for myself, no poopoo here. Different from Trump I can't be held accountable for many thousands of deaths through willful negligence. In normal WH administrations a president surrounds him self with a cabinet that will help prevent screwups; everything is thrice vetted and scrutinized before it's announced. Trump does no such thing. He denigrates everybody on his staff and cabinet and tweets whatever comes to mind.
The reason why people on that picture look the way they do has been analysed over and over, and not just in this point in history.
It's the old autocrat authoritarian playbook. Go stand on balconies, act larger than life and some people will see you as the Savior.
In 2015 / 16 Trump told low info voters their world was going to hell, due to "China," "antifa democrats" and colored people moving into their neighbourhoods. Things were bad and were going to get worse. "I alone can fix this," were his words.
There are many unhappy people, dissatisfied with their lives, underdogs, who need a lucky break. They relie on magical thinking, buying lottery tickets etc. That's why this woman takes her baby to a raucous political rally where it has no business being, so that magic man can lay his grubby hands on the baby (probably one of the low points in Trump's day). That woman's expression is not happy or positive. She is anxious and overwhelmed at being this close to someone from another dimension. (This is something that people famous from TV experience a lot: people just turn to crazy jelly when they spot you.)
In reality Trump has made things worse for his followers, as was 100% predictable, since the Trump organisation has always been a prime example of a predatory business. Covid was another business opportunity for him, trying to sell a useless drug in which the Trumps had a stake.
Hitler was a better dictator, since the German people did in fact profit for some years from the Third Reich expansion, up to 1943. Conquered countries were looted to the benefit of the people back home. In Trump's case there is only an upside for the billionaire few.
How can people be so sure Trump was made the president by God and Obama by Satan? What if it's the other way around? The ways of the God are mysterious so how can we really know? :-X
Also, if presidents and leaders are chosen by God and Satan taking turns while people voting for them think they choose the leaders, it would be interesting to know which presidents of my own country Finland have been chosen by God and which by Satan. Take for example the Nobel Peace Prize winner president Martti Ahtisaari. Was he chosen by Satan, since Trump chosen allegadly by God has hard time winning that same prize?
Dictators 'n' Satan: GMG deep.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 27, 2020, 03:55:39 AM
Take for example the Nobel Peace Prize winner president Martti Ahtisaari. Was he chosen by Satan, since Trump chosen allegadly by God has hard time winning that same prize?
According to Trump he's been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize twice.
Now that 'Waffle Coney' is in the court I consider the US a Christian version of Saudi-Arabia.
Congratulation Americans! You have fucked up royally. Enjoy your new Lochner era! ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on October 27, 2020, 05:52:33 AM
I consider the US a Christian version of Saudi-Arabia.
Well, a few years ago you considered Mahler's music as having less events per second than Elgar's (or something like that) so what you consider is of no particular interest to anyone having the slightest connection to reality.
Quote from: Florestan on October 27, 2020, 06:05:40 AM
Well, a few years ago you considered Mahler's music as having less events per second than Elgar's (or something like that) so what you consider is of no particular interest to anyone having the slightest connection to reality.
He also wrote about space aliens in this thread. Take from that what you will.
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2020, 06:36:35 AM
He also wrote about space aliens in this thread.
I know.
Quote from: Florestan on October 27, 2020, 06:05:40 AM
Well, a few years ago you considered Mahler's music as having less events per second than Elgar's (or something like that) so what you consider is of no particular interest to anyone having the slightest connection to reality.
Spoken by someone who has no idea about American politics and considers NATO good guys as Romania, Poland, and the Baltics and the bad guys as Germany and France. ::)
Take that Dump:
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/justice-department-no-substitute-trump-133900060.html
Only ten more days!
Quote from: Florestan on October 27, 2020, 06:05:40 AM
Well, a few years ago you considered Mahler's music as having less events per second than Elgar's (or something like that) so what you consider is of no particular interest to anyone having the slightest connection to reality.
Says who?
Quote from: Florestan on March 14, 2020, 11:28:03 AM
[About Corona]
I'm willing to take a bet: past April (May at most) the whole damn thing will be over in Europe.
Hi all!
I'm new here, have fun with me.
The people who think that Dump isn't corrupt are the same people who think he's the 2nd coming of Jesus.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/yahoo-news-you-gov-poll-despite-questions-about-the-laptop-most-americans-think-the-trumps-are-more-corrupt-than-the-bidens-125334640.html
The delusional madman gaslighting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdAh2HJ98WE
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/brett-kavanaugh-mail-ballots-trump-fraud.html
[...]"Monday's order from the Supreme Court blocked a federal judge's order that had tweaked Wisconsin's voting laws in light of the pandemic. The judge directed election officials to count ballots that were postmarked by Election Day but received by Nov. 9, finding that the unprecedented demand for mail ballots combined with Postal Service delays could disenfranchise up to 100,000 voters. An appeals court blocked his decision on Oct. 8, and on Monday, SCOTUS kept it on hold by a 5–3 vote. The court offered no majority opinion, but Chief Justice John Roberts, Justice Neil Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh all wrote concurrences. Justice Elena Kagan penned a trenchant dissent joined by Justices Stephen Breyer and Sonia Sotomayor.
Kavanaugh's opinion is the most notable of the bunch because he is the new median justice and the opinion is frankly terrifying. In one passage, Kavanaugh attempted to defend the Wisconsin law disqualifying ballots received after Election Day. He pointed out that "most States" share this policy, explaining:
"For important reasons, most States, including Wisconsin, require absentee ballots to be received by election day, not just mailed by election day. Those States want to avoid the chaos and suspicions of impropriety that can ensue if thousands of absentee ballots flow in after election day and potentially flip the results of an election. And those States also want to be able to definitively announce the results of the election on election night, or as soon as possible thereafter. Moreover, particularly in a Presidential election, counting all the votes quickly can help the State promptly resolve any disputes, address any need for recounts, and begin the process of canvassing and certifying the election results in an expeditious manner. [...] [L]ate-arriving ballots open up one of the greatest risks of what might, in our era of hyperpolarized political parties and existential politics, destabilize the election result. If the apparent winner the morning after the election ends up losing due to late-arriving ballots, charges of a rigged election could explode."
Kavanaugh then quoted New York University law professor Richard Pildes stating that the "longer after Election Day any significant changes in vote totals take place, the greater the risk that the losing side will cry that the election has been stolen." (Kavanaugh was quoting an article in which Pildes encouraged states to extend their ballot deadlines, directly contradicting Kavanaugh's argument.)
It is genuinely alarming that the justice cast these aspersions on late-arriving ballots. In at least 18 states and the District of Columbia, election officials do count ballots that arrive after Election Day. And, in these states, there is no result to "flip" because there is no result to overturn until all valid ballots are counted. Further, George W. Bush's 2000 election legal team—which included Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Roberts—argued during that contested election that ballots arriving late and without postmarks, which were thought to benefit Bush, must be counted in Florida (https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/15/us/examining-the-vote-how-bush-took-florida-mining-the-overseas-absentee-vote.html)."
There is no problem counting ballots postmarked in time if they arrive a few days late. And as Justice Kagan put it, elections are not "flipped" by counting all the votes.
Also from Slate:
Let's Count All the Errors and Lies in Brett Kavanaugh's Defense of Voter Suppression (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/brett-kavanaugh-voter-suppression-wisconsin-mistakes.html)
"While the Senate confirmed Amy Coney Barrett on Monday night, Justice Brett Kavanaugh handed down a startling opinion that laid out how the Supreme Court could steal the election for Donald Trump. Kavanaugh's opinion was an assault on the integrity of America's upcoming election; it was also extraordinarily sloppy, riddled with errors that would make even a traffic court judge blush. It's worth highlighting these mistakes, not just to set the record straight but also to show how Kavanaugh uses falsehoods to twist the law against voting rights."[...]
continued in link
-
New York Times:
As Election Nears, Trump Makes a Final Push Against Climate Science (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/climate/trump-election-climate-noaa.html)
"The Trump administration has recently removed the chief scientist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the nation's premier scientific agency, installed new political staff who have questioned accepted facts about climate change and imposed stricter controls on communications at the agency.
The moves threaten to stifle a major source of objective United States government information about climate change that underpins federal rules on greenhouse gas emissions and offer an indication of the direction the agency will take if President Trump wins re-election.
An early sign of the shift came last month, when Erik Noble, a former White House policy adviser who had just been appointed NOAA's chief of staff, removed Craig McLean, the agency's acting chief scientist.
Mr. McLean had sent some of the new political appointees a message that asked them to acknowledge the agency's scientific integrity policy, which prohibits manipulating research or presenting ideologically driven findings.
The request prompted a sharp response from Dr. Noble. "Respectfully, by what authority are you sending this to me?" he wrote, according to a person who received a copy of the exchange after it was circulated within NOAA.
Mr. McLean answered that his role as acting chief scientist made him responsible for ensuring that the agency's rules on scientific integrity were followed.
The following morning, Dr. Noble responded. "You no longer serve as the acting chief scientist for NOAA," he informed Mr. McLean, adding that a new chief scientist had already been appointed. "Thank you for your service."
It was not the first time NOAA had drawn the administration's attention. Last year, the agency's weather forecasters came under pressure for contradicting Mr. Trump's false statements about the path of Hurricane Dorian.
But in an administration where even uttering the words "climate change" is dangerous, NOAA has, so far, remained remarkably independent in its ability to conduct research about and publicly discuss changes to the Earth's climate. It also still maintains numerous public websites that declare, in direct opposition to Mr. Trump, that climate change is occurring, is overwhelmingly caused by humans, and presents a serious threat to the United States.
Replacing Mr. McLean, who remains at the agency, was Ryan Maue, a former researcher for the libertarian Cato Institute who has criticized climate scientists for what he has called unnecessarily dire predictions."[...]
Quote from: drogulus on October 27, 2020, 02:37:25 PM
There is no problem counting ballots postmarked in time if they arrive a few days late. And as Justice Kagan put it, elections are not "flipped" by counting all the votes.
No, indeed. That suggestion is mere political hackdom.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 27, 2020, 02:54:21 PM
Also from Slate:
Let's Count All the Errors and Lies in Brett Kavanaugh's Defense of Voter Suppression (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/brett-kavanaugh-voter-suppression-wisconsin-mistakes.html)
"While the Senate confirmed Amy Coney Barrett on Monday night, Justice Brett Kavanaugh handed down a startling opinion that laid out how the Supreme Court could steal the election for Donald Trump. Kavanaugh's opinion was an assault on the integrity of America's upcoming election; it was also extraordinarily sloppy, riddled with errors that would make even a traffic court judge blush. It's worth highlighting these mistakes, not just to set the record straight but also to show how Kavanaugh uses falsehoods to twist the law against voting rights."[...]
It's not surprising that a perjurer and rapist like Kavanaugh would write an opinion designed to change PA election law in the middle of an election, a kind of action that would be illegal if performed by any state. Voters have already made decisions about when and how they're going to vote based on the existing law that required mail-in ballots postmarked by election day to be counted. If the Dems get the chance, they should definitely pack the SCOTUS, preferably with non-rapists who haven't perjured themselves in front of Congress
Joe Rogan, Kyle Kulinski, Tim Dillon and possibly Alex Jones (!!!! :o ) will have Election Day Special together. ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on October 27, 2020, 04:54:35 PM
Joe Rogan, Kyle Kulinski, Tim Dillon and possibly Alex Jones (!!!! :o ) will have Election Day Special together. ;D
Does Kyle want Biden to lose?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 27, 2020, 05:03:35 PM
Does Kyle want Biden to lose?
No, of course not. As far as I know only Alex Jones of those four want that.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 27, 2020, 05:08:28 PM
No, of course not. As far as I know only Alex Jones of those four want that.
Ah, thanks. Last I thought I remembered, he advocated writing in Bernie as a "protest vote." Glad to know that I was mistaken.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 27, 2020, 05:22:07 PM
Ah, thanks. Last I thought I remembered, he advocated writing in Bernie as a "protest vote." Glad to know that I was mistaken.
I am not 100 % sure what he does, but then again here he lives Biden will win anyway. In a Swing state he would definitely vote for Biden. The problem is Biden is a war criminal who agrees very little with Kyle Kulinski about anything so voting for him in EXTREMELY difficult. As Kyle says: "It's difficult to sleep well if I vote for a war criminal because I feel I have blood in my hands". I have explaned the extremely shitty situation the left is in several times. People here should understand the reasons by now.
A "war criminal"? Puhleeeze.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 27, 2020, 06:17:05 PM
I am not 100 % sure what he does, but then again here he lives Biden will win anyway. In a Swing state he would definitely vote for Biden. The problem is Biden is a war criminal who agrees very little with Kyle Kulinski about anything so voting for him in EXTREMELY difficult. As Kyle says: "It's difficult to sleep well if I vote for a war criminal because I feel I have blood in my hands". I have explaned the extremely shitty situation the left is in several times. People here should understand the reasons by now.
Difficult to take you seriously when you are so attracted to the stupidest and most ineffective part of the American left. Kulinski treating voting as the same kind of personal expression as his sartorial choices makes sense as he has a Youtube channel to promote. It's silly for anyone else to follow him.
Whoever thought it was going to look good to conduct Barrett's swearing-in in a dark White House garden at night, must have seen too many Maffia movies.
It looked exactly like what it was: a crime syndicate quickly enlisting and contracting a new member to its cause. Which in this case is destroying USA democracy.
Couple hours later Independent Amy was in a campaign video for her boss, Trump.
In some quarters people are still wondering whether she will recuse herself from any SCOTUS 2020 Election cases. These people haven't been paying attention. She was put there to hand Trump a second term. What she's going to do the other thirty or so years is up to her. Maybe kill Roe v Wade?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 27, 2020, 06:51:33 PM
A "war criminal"? Puhleeeze.
Yeah. The US breaks international law all the time. The corporate media just has "normalized" it in their servatude to the military industry complex. The US gets away with it because it's a superpower, but that doesn't take away the fact a lot of American politicians are war criminals - including Nobel piece prize winner Obama. :-\
Quote from: Daverz on October 27, 2020, 08:00:19 PM
Difficult to take you seriously when you are so attracted to the stupidest and most ineffective part of the American left. Kulinski treating voting as the same kind of personal expression as his sartorial choices makes sense as he has a Youtube channel to promote. It's silly for anyone else to follow him.
How should he treat voting? Isn't voting about expressing YOUR own opinion about what kind of politics should be done in the country? Neither of the candidates reflect even close Kulinski's social democratic vision for the country, so how can you expect it to be easy for him for vote for Biden? Sure, Trump's blatant faschism has made voting Biden
easier for him, but still not easy. Biden is still the lesser of two evils for him, lightyears from social democratic ideology.
If Kyle Kulinski is the stupidest and most ineffective part of the American left, who is the smartest part of the left? If I should not follow him, WHO should I follow? If you are right, the left is really hiding it's best if the co-founder of Justice Democrats is the most ineffective part of the American left.
Poor Trump: Going to NEBRASKA? Guess he needs the attention, pitiable sucker.
Biden campaigned in GA, a state no Democrat has won since 1992. Trump is running out of money, with a sliver of the electoral map open to him; Biden is flush with cash, with a map that could potentially include Texas and Ohio. Trump is going to Nebraska
"In pointing out how obvious Trump's defects are, Obama delivered a devastating blow to Republicanss. These people who fancied themselves as "values" voters are now moral nihilists for whom nothing Trump does can be grounds for rejecting him."
This is alarming:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-28/supreme-court-lays-out-path-to-help-trump-win-a-contested-race
The U.S. Supreme Court's conservatives started carving a path that could let President Donald Trump win a contested election, issuing a far-reaching set of opinions just as Amy Coney Barrett was getting Senate confirmation to provide what could be a crucial additional vote.
In a 5-3 decision released minutes before the Senate vote Monday night, the court rejected Democratic calls to reinstate a six-day extension for the receipt of mail ballots in Wisconsin, a hotly contested state that is experiencing a surge of Covid-19 cases. The Supreme Court as a whole gave no explanation for the decision.
The outcome was bad enough for Democrats, but an opinion by Trump-appointed Justice Brett Kavanaugh bordered on catastrophic. Kavanaugh suggested sympathy for Trump's unsubstantiated contentions that votes received after Election Day would be tainted by fraud, warning that "charges of a rigged election could explode" if late-arriving ballots change the perceived outcome.
That was pretty obvious.
Quote from: Dowder on October 28, 2020, 03:22:39 AM
Of course, celebrate the illegal Dem power grab.
People who mail their votes before election day are not voting illegally. Kavanaugh didn't even consider whether their disenfranchisement violated their rights. He acted in favor of state legislative inaction that accomplished this disenfranchisement as though only what legislatures do mattered.
Regarding the supposed flip, it takes weeks for states to certify election results and what the media projects, accurate as it is, sets no standard and has no bearing. There is nothing to flip before the final result.
From the Slate article yesterday:
There are really two errors here. The first is that late-arriving ballots can "flip" an election, which is obviously false; as Justice Elena Kagan retorted in dissent, "there are no results to 'flip' until all valid votes are counted. And nothing could be more 'suspicio[us]' or 'improp[er]' than refusing to tally votes once the clock strikes 12 on election night. To suggest otherwise, especially in these fractious times, is to disserve the electoral process."
The second error lies in Kavanaugh's claim that states "definitively announce the results of the election on election night." That is untrue: The media may call an election on election night; a candidate may call on election on election night; but the states do not "definitively announce the results" on election night. To the contrary, every state formally certifies results in the days or weeks following an election; zero certify results on election night. There is a good reason why: It takes a while to count every ballot, including those from members of the military, which frequently arrive late. A state's duty is not to satisfy anxious candidates and voters but to get the count right. It is only cynical politicians who insist that a state must announce the results immediately. Why would military ballots that arrive late be counted? In some states they are not. Are they not counted because of suspicions of fraud, or election results have been projected and can't be "flipped"?
Quote from: Dowder on October 28, 2020, 03:14:24 AM
My, look at that trolling. ::)
Not trolling. You can watch Kavanaugh perjuring himself any time you're ready. It — well, one of several instances — occurs under questioning by Senator Sheldon Whitehouse in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee. It's on Youtube. Whitehouse asks Kavanaugh to define terms found in K's yearbook and elsewhere in his youthful writing. When asked what the expression "devil's triangle" meant, K lied, saying it was a drinking game. What it was, in fact, was a code word used by him and his buddies (accomplices) for a two-on-one sexual assault, which was exactly what he was accused of. What kind of high school kids need a code word for two-on-one sexual assault? Answer: those who make a hobby of it. As for calling him a rapist, I'm comfortable with it because when he was accused of participating in gang rapes (a witness puts him in line at a bedroom door in which a drugged girl was being serially raped) and he had the FBI more or less at his disposal to clear him, he didn't demand an investigation. That witness, his alleged accomplice (Mark Judge) in the assault on Blasey-Ford, and the multiple witnesses to another sexual assault at a dorm party were never questioned. Another woman accused K and one of his friends (devil's triangle again) of assaulting her in a car. She wasn't questioned either. It's appalling the scumbag was ever considered for a high judicial office.
For Mini Bear, people voting, whom he doesn't want to vote, is an "illegal power grab."
The unexamined life and happy-to-be-a-jerk fit hand in glove.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2020, 05:13:18 AM
Poor Trump: Going to NEBRASKA? Guess he needs the attention, pitiable sucker.
And after the rally Airforce One took off and hundreds of Trumpkins were left in the dark and cold to walk back to the parking lot, suffering hypothermia and disorientation.
https://www.newsweek.com/omaha-trump-rally-attendees-stranded-several-taken-hospital-suffering-hypothermia-1542741?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true&s=04&fbclid=IwAR1LvcnYJmV7i0x37NyNIynzWn4g6A-4z-V3hnY9k5RmxmRCxaawGCWKYuk
If Trump is voted out of office, he should get a cardboard replica of Airforce One so he can wave to fans from the top of the staircase.
Quote from: Sterna on October 27, 2020, 08:53:44 AM
Says who?
Hi all!
I'm new here, have fun with me.
Hello, and welcome to the forum! :)
PD
Quote from: Herman on October 28, 2020, 08:22:38 AM
And after the rally Airforce One took off and hundreds of Trumpkins were left in the dark and cold to walk back to the parking lot, suffering hypothermia and disorientation.
https://www.newsweek.com/omaha-trump-rally-attendees-stranded-several-taken-hospital-suffering-hypothermia-1542741?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true&s=04&fbclid=IwAR1LvcnYJmV7i0x37NyNIynzWn4g6A-4z-V3hnY9k5RmxmRCxaawGCWKYuk
If Trump is voted out of office, he should get a cardboard replica of Airforce One so he can wave to fans from the top of the staircase.
Potemkin Village, anyone?
The Stench of Trump's Racism Will Cling to His Enablers Forever (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/article/trumps-racist-conservatives-national-review-1619-project-woke.html?__twitter_impression=true&s=04&fbclid=IwAR28kFN0FYLyfjdejDkw7nHd5gK2-YdHGk98SoI_oK9o8-n53HBlnBjayU8)
CNN's @AlisynCamerota:
"Hospitals in WI are near capacity. Does that give you any pause about going there and holding a big rally?"
Trump 2020 Press Sec. Hogan Gidley: "No, it doesn't ... the VP has the best doctors in the world around him."
Quote from: drogulus on October 28, 2020, 09:17:19 AM
CNN's @AlisynCamerota:
"Hospitals in WI are near capacity. Does that give you any pause about going there and holding a big rally?"
Trump 2020 Press Sec. Hogan Gidley: "No, it doesn't ... the VP has the best doctors in the world around him."
That's a fundamental axiom of Cheeto Mussolinism: "
Fuck you, Jack, I got mine!"
Quote from: drogulus on October 28, 2020, 09:17:19 AM
CNN's @AlisynCamerota:
"Hospitals in WI are near capacity. Does that give you any pause about going there and holding a big rally?"
Trump 2020 Press Sec. Hogan Gidley: "No, it doesn't ... the VP has the best doctors in the world around him."
Gruesomely perfect. Not even the shade of thought for the little people. The Loyalty Death Cult.
The U.S. has already hit 51% of total 2016 voting
At least 71.5 million have voted nationwide, with 6 days until Election Day
The Desperate Hypocrisy of the Trump Legal Clean-Up Crew (https://thebulwark.com/the-desperate-hypocrisy-of-the-trump-legal-clean-up-crew/)
Why is Trump trailing? New polling shows it's his slide among Whites.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2020, 10:42:55 AM
Why is Trump trailing? New polling shows it's his slide among Whites.
"Now it turns out the really pernicious neglect of the region is coming from Trump, on the public health crisis ravaging it. He thought he could exploit that crisis to deepen his populist appeal, at times even suggesting the virus was mainly a problem for diseased blue cosmopolitan America.
Yet Trump is now finding that dangerously large numbers of Midwestern White voters also mysteriously think public officials should act aggressively to constrain a highly contagious pandemic. In Wisconsin and Michigan, majorities of Whites — including many non-college Whites — favor restrictions."
And still, I have a bad feeling about 11/3...
I predicted a Trump win in 2016 (people said I was too pessimistic) which I'm not doing this time.
But I'm not predicting a Biden win either. He's going to win the popular vote easily, but there won't be an EC landslide. It's pretty clear the GOP has all along figured they will never again win the popular vote. Their victory plan involves manipulation at state levels: Texans will have to travel far to vote and in Michigan folks can bring firearms into voting stations and scare little old ladies. Just a couple examples. I will not be surprised if some folks accidentally drop a few gallons of gasoline in voting stations lighting a match by the time the votes are in. After the Maffia style swearing in of Amy the Demure there is going to be a new SCOTUS vote about mail-in ballots and the Supreme Court is ready to overwhelmingly vote in Trump.
If Trump is voted out he is going to be in deep legal trouble, and most of his pals, too. His life pretty much depends on staying put. Same goes for the GOP.
Quote from: Herman on October 28, 2020, 10:58:16 AM
And still, I have a bad feeling about 11/3...
I predicted a Trump win in 2016 (people said I was too pessimistic) which I'm not doing this time.
But I'm not predicting a Biden win either. He's going to win the popular vote easily, but there won't be an EC landslide. It's pretty clear the GOP has all along figured they will never again win the popular vote. Their victory plan involves manipulation at state levels: Texans will have to travel far to vote and in Michigan folks can bring firearms into voting stations and scare little old ladies. Just a couple examples. I will not be surprised if some folks accidentally drop a few gallons of gasoline in voting stations lighting a match by the time the votes are in. After the Maffia style swearing in of Amy the Demure there is going to be a new SCOTUS vote about mail-in ballots and the Supreme Court is ready to overwhelmingly vote in Trump...
+1
A final look at the intellectual and moral contortions of Trump's defenders. (https://thebulwark.com/getting-past-partisan-blinders/)
Quote from: T. D. on October 28, 2020, 11:06:10 AM
+1
Even should Biden win, it will be tough to shake Trumpism.
Exhibit A: the true believers, Mini Bear, e.g.
Exhibit B: the cynical enablers, Huggy Bear, e.g.
"RABA Research was out with a poll yesterday showing Biden at 50 percent and Trump at 46 percent in Iowa. Last week, the A+ pollsters Monmouth University and Siena College/The New York Times Upshot found similar margins. Iowa, remember, is a fairly red state that Trump carried by 9 points in 2016. And for the first time, our forecast now gives Biden a better chance than Trump of winning the state, although it's still basically a coin flip (Biden's odds are 51 in 100)."
Quote from: Herman on October 28, 2020, 10:58:16 AMI predicted a Trump win in 2016 (people said I was too pessimistic) which I'm not doing this time.
I certainly didn't predict Trump win. At that time I was totally clueless of US politics and like many others thought the idea of Trump winning is silly. Of course Hillary will win! When Trump won I was totally perplexed and wanted to understand how a reality tv baffoon can become the president. That's when I started following US politics, found the likes of Kyle Kulinski who where able to explain to me why Hillary lost. Aah, Hillary is hated because she is so corrupt and arrogant and didn't even try to be a populist in the era of political populism! No wonder she lost. I learned that for people like Kyle Kulinski Trumps victory wasn't surprising and Kulinski actually warned about Trump in February 2016 I believe, but that was almost a year before I started to follow US politics so I didn't know about those warnings at that time.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 28, 2020, 12:44:40 PM
That's when I started following US politics, found the likes of Kyle Kulinski who where able to explain to me why Hillary lost. Aah, Hillary is hated because she is so corrupt and arrogant and didn't even try to be a populist in the era of political populism! No wonder she lost.
Reminder nr zillion: Hillary won the popular vote by three million.
She lost Michigan by 11.000 votes.
She didn't lose because she was unpopular; she lost because of Comey's colossal vanity and because her campaign had gotten complacent.
Quote from: Herman on October 28, 2020, 01:21:46 PM
Reminder nr zillion: Hillary won the popular vote by three million.
She lost Michigan by 11.000 votes.
She didn't lose because she was unpopular; she lost because of Comey's colossal vanity and because her campaign had gotten complacent.
Winning the popular vote isn't important. Winning the electorate vote is important. Hillary was popular in the wrong places so her 3 million votes helped nothing. She lost in the rust belt because she wasn't populist enough.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 28, 2020, 12:44:40 PM
the likes of Kyle Kulinski who where able to explain to me why Hillary lost. Aah,
You persist in the by-now inexcusable error of taking Kulinski as a source of fact.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
You persist in the by-now inexcusable error of taking Kulinski as a source of fact.
This sentence alone is an example of thinking the wrong way in general. It's not even an argument.
You gotta separate the person making the statement from the statement. If you disagree with Kulinski on most stuff, then whatever, but it doesn't mean that whatever specific point he made about Hillary is incorrect because he is wrong (from your perspective) about other things.
Unless you are speaking
in general, but I don't suspect that since you are responding to just one portion of a post.
Quote from: greg on October 28, 2020, 03:01:53 PM
You gotta separate the person making the statement from the statement.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Almost everything you get from the wing commanders can be obtained from corporate failing media outlets when it comes to basic news and first pass analysis. Get the basics first, then you can safely proceed to alternative views. If you start with alternative analysis without much grounding in the detail tentpole media provides you won't be able to properly evaluate what Guy On The Internet is telling you.
Quote from: greg on October 28, 2020, 03:01:53 PM
This sentence alone is an example of thinking the wrong way in general. It's not even an argument.
You gotta separate the person making the statement from the statement. If you disagree with Kulinski on most stuff, then whatever, but it doesn't mean that whatever specific point he made about Hillary is incorrect because he is wrong (from your perspective) about other things.
Unless you are speaking in general, but I don't suspect that since you are responding to just one portion of a post.
Bear in mind that Kulinski on this point was not giving an analysis that he had come up in defiance of the common wisdom. It was the common wisdom. Heck, it's my view of why Hillary lost. Maybe
71dB should pay more attention to me!
Okay, to both of your posts, but if it isn't clear, what I'm trying to talk about isn't specifically Kulinski/Hillary, or politics, just a wrong way of thinking that affects any type of discussion (including politics).
If someone busted out of a mental hospital in a straight jacket and started yelling, "10 + 10 = 20! It is the truth of existence! The number 20 will run off the set of Sesame Street and materialize into a monster and devour the world!"
then you can't just say, "Heh, what a crackpot, 10 + 10 = 20? Pssh! Yeah, right! Who would believe that lunatic?"
I don't really care about the specifics of Kulinski/Hillary...
Variation on a classic truism:
The fact that a stopped clock is right twice a day doesn't mitigate the value of pointing out that the clock is stopped.
Quote from: greg on October 28, 2020, 06:16:23 PM
Okay, to both of your posts, but if it isn't clear, what I'm trying to talk about isn't specifically Kulinski/Hillary, or politics, just a wrong way of thinking that affects any type of discussion (including politics).
If someone busted out of a mental hospital in a straight jacket and started yelling, "10 + 10 = 20! It is the truth of existence! The number 20 will run off the set of Sesame Street and materialize into a monster and devour the world!"
then you can't just say, "Heh, what a crackpot, 10 + 10 = 20? Pssh! Yeah, right! Who would believe that lunatic?"
I don't really care about the specifics of Kulinski/Hillary...
The analogy wrt 71db - and Kyle- would be that person saying "I've learned that 10 plus 10 equals 20 therefore I am now supereducated and my word should be the final word on anything involving mathematics".
Quote from: JBS on October 28, 2020, 05:43:48 PM
Bear in mind that Kulinski on this point was not giving an analysis that he had come up in defiance of the common wisdom. It was the common wisdom. Heck, it's my view of why Hillary lost. Maybe 71dB should pay more attention to me!
Hillary lost because she couldn't hold traditional blue collar Dem voters. People think they don't like Hillary because she is corrupt, though I think it's more like they think she's corrupt because they don't like her and decades of Clinton hate propaganda give them ammunition. Her unlikability makes her vulnerable to anything anyone wants to say about her concerning Whitewater, the Clinton Foundation, Uranium One, Benghazi and Her Emails. None of these are corrupt in any meaningful sense. Every single one of these has been investigated to death, and none have produced charges even during an administration dedicated to locking her up.
What's her magic? Why couldn't her enemies at the FBI build a case against her? Maybe we should ask Special Prosecutor Kyle Kulinski.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2020, 06:37:59 PM
Variation on a classic truism:
The fact that a stopped clock is right twice a day doesn't mitigate the value of pointing out that the clock is stopped.
Already thought of that. That's why I offered the question of if you meant in general, or if you meant as an argument against that point (if in general, then yeah it applies and I don't have a problem with your comment- if not then it is some sort of logical fallacy, not sure what the name would be but surely someone else knows). I suspected more the later, which is why I pointed that out.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 28, 2020, 06:56:33 PM
The analogy wrt 71db - and Kyle- would be that person saying "I've learned that 10 plus 10 equals 20 therefore I am now supereducated and my word should be the final word on anything involving mathematics".
No... you are looking at something else here... I'm not saying to blindly trust Kyle or that he's right or not... just saying dismissing someone else's point because they are usually wrong on other stuff just isn't a good thing to do.
EDIT: i think you are commenting on 71db's
reasons for believing Kyle, I'm not commenting on that
or if my interpretation is wrong then correct me
Actually removing Dowder's most outrageous posts would be doing him a favor.
As it stands they are a monument to his distorted sense of reality.
What makes such outbursts so weird is the use of USSR era terms for bad people. So I would be a white American Commissar, and the politically correct are part of the KGB.
And this while Trump and Giulinia are openly courting Putin and Russia is clearly putting in a massive effort to get Trump elected, or rather to get Biden not elected. The GOP has pretty much become an arm of Russian efforts to destabilise the western world and yet for mr D. the bad people are somehow supposed to be anti-American Sovjet style folks.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
You persist in the by-now inexcusable error of taking Kulinski as a source of fact.
Not completely true. Yes, I do "trust" Kulinski quite a bit
because he has EARNED my trust, but that doesn't mean I believe him totally blindly. It's just that hardly ever does my own alarm bells ring when listening to him. Kulinski has his weaknesses (he says himself he is bad at math for example) and I know them. Often he is even annoying being patronizing*. His strengths are his intellectual honestly (e.g. he loves Bernie, but is the first on the left to blame Bernie for politically stupid moves and he has lambasted AOC etc. while giving credit to right-wingers when they do "accidentally" good things. That kind of non-partianship makes me respect/trust him. ) and also his goodness as a person. He cares about other people and the world. He wants a better world for everyone including people on the right.
Taking corporate msm outlets seriously is the error people make. The corporate media NEVER admits they have corporate bias. They don't tell their viewers they serve the top 1 % so that the viewers knew their framing of things. People like Kulinski DO tell their bias: Everybody (who listens to him) knows Kulinski is a lefty atheist supporting social democracy and his framing of things reflect that. Everybody know what he wants doesn't benefit the top 1 %, but the bottom 99 %.
* I am annoyed by his constant rants about social media censorship. Whenever the left is censored in social media (this time it was about someone talking about the Bolivia election - yes, the oligarchs don't like people talking about lefty victories) he gives this lecture:
"Demanding far right extremists be censored the left has shot it's own foot and now they are censoring ALSO the left. Those in power will always come after the left because the left questions their power. I told you this will happen. I warned you. Here we are." He is right in the substance, but NOT EVERYONE on the left has demanded censorship of anyone! Not me at least. That's why hearing this same lecture on weekly basis has become really annoying for me. See, I can be critical of Kyle Kulinski.
Quote from: greg on October 28, 2020, 03:01:53 PM
If you disagree with Kulinski on most stuff, then whatever, but it doesn't mean that whatever specific point he made about Hillary is incorrect because he is wrong (from your perspective) about other things.
It's doesn't happen often for me to disagree with Kyle Kulinski. One time he happened to say samething indicating he doesn't like Kesha's music while I consider Kesha (my favorite pop artist) a genius of pop music. Overall I think Kulinski knows and understands very little about music. Music just isn't his thing. He is a politics junky. Well, that's why I don't listen to him for music related things but politics.
Hillary has blamed almost everyone from Bernie to Russians for her loss except herself. Hillary is unable to look at the mirror. Add the hopeless msm and you have the reason why a lot of people don't know the real reasons for her loss.
Quote from: drogulus on October 28, 2020, 07:00:22 PM
Hillary lost because she couldn't hold traditional blue collar Dem voters. People think they don't like Hillary because she is corrupt, though I think it's more like they think she's corrupt because they don't like her and decades of Clinton hate propaganda give them ammunition. Her unlikability makes her vulnerable to anything anyone wants to say about her concerning Whitewater, the Clinton Foundation, Uranium One, Benghazi and Her Emails. None of these are corrupt in any meaningful sense. Every single one of these has been investigated to death, and none have produced charges even during an administration dedicated to locking her up.
What's her magic? Why couldn't her enemies at the FBI build a case against her? Maybe we should ask Special Prosecutor Kyle Kulinski.
You forgot in the US corruption is
legal. You can be very corrupt (as most American politicians are) without breaking the law. All you need to do is take money from Exxon and Big Pharma and be against Green New Deal and Medicare for all. In Finland that would be a bribery crime. In the US it is not, because the US is a democracy only on paper and functions as an oligarchy.
You don't seem to realise that you're taking Trumps bait, hook line and sinker by making the 2020 election about Hillary.
You're really a stuck record, as are some others here.
Quote from: drogulus on October 28, 2020, 07:00:22 PM
Hillary lost because she couldn't hold traditional blue collar Dem voters. People think they don't like Hillary because she is corrupt, though I think it's more like they think she's corrupt because they don't like her and decades of Clinton hate propaganda give them ammunition. Her unlikability makes her vulnerable to anything anyone wants to say about her concerning Whitewater, the Clinton Foundation, Uranium One, Benghazi and Her Emails. None of these are corrupt in any meaningful sense. Every single one of these has been investigated to death, and none have produced charges even during an administration dedicated to locking her up.
What's her magic? Why couldn't her enemies at the FBI build a case against her? Maybe we should ask Special Prosecutor Kyle Kulinski.
Special Prosecutor Kulinski is busy investigating Biden's "war crimes."
Jennifer Rubin: It's already happening: I don't even care what Trump says these days. He is irrelevant
Quote from: Dowder on October 28, 2020, 07:36:44 PM
If this post gets removed you know that the left wing mods don't mind Basil Butthead calling Kavanaugh a rapist but a Trumpist for Truth keeping it real and not bowing to the left wing PC KGB.
Would you prefer former teenage drunkard, serial sexual assaulter, and perjurer?
Butthead! Ooh, that's a good one (if you are twelve years old).
I'm not generally one to jump into political threads, but I thought this was one of the more insightful articles I've read regarding living through this election in the US, and from a humor columnist no less. It's a fairly long read, but worth sticking through to the end IMO...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2020/10/26/gene-weingarten-divided-country-healing/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2020/10/26/gene-weingarten-divided-country-healing/)
"What lies?" Mini Bear in denial about Kavanaugh's participation in serial rape? Who's surprised?
"Rupert Murdoch, the 89-year-old billionaire whose family controls Fox News's parent company, has told associates that he is resigned to a Trump loss in November. And he has complained that the president's current low polling numbers are due to repeated "unforced errors" that could have been avoided if he had followed Murdoch's advice about how to weather the coronavirus pandemic, according to associates who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations."
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 29, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
Would you prefer former teenage drunkard, serial sexual assaulter, and perjurer?
Butthead! Ooh, that's a good one (if you are twelve years old).
He's just squealing because of the butthurt of Trump going down in flames.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-29/trump-war-on-civil-servants-is-worse-than-it-looks
His executive order would impose a chilling effect on professionals who use their expertise to raise questions and doubts.
For decades, U.S. government civil servants have had a degree of job security, in the sense that the president, and his political appointees, could not fire them merely because they were not sufficiently "loyal." That would change under an executive order issued by President Donald Trump that is aimed at undermining the legal protection long given to many thousands of these career employees.
On Jan. 19, 2021, they will apparently become closer to "at will" employees. If the president, or political appointees, want to fire them, they can.
Quote from: T. D. on October 29, 2020, 07:56:43 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-29/trump-war-on-civil-servants-is-worse-than-it-looks
His executive order would impose a chilling effect on professionals who use their expertise to raise questions and doubts.
For decades, U.S. government civil servants have had a degree of job security, in the sense that the president, and his political appointees, could not fire them merely because they were not sufficiently "loyal." That would change under an executive order issued by President Donald Trump that is aimed at undermining the legal protection long given to many thousands of these career employees.
On Jan. 19, 2021, they will apparently become closer to "at will" employees. If the president, or political appointees, want to fire them, they can.
What Would Putin do?
Quote from: 71 dB on October 29, 2020, 02:30:41 AM
You forgot in the US corruption is legal. You can be very corrupt (as most American politicians are) without breaking the law. All you need to do is take money from Exxon and Big Pharma and be against Green New Deal and Medicare for all. In Finland that would be a bribery crime. In the US it is not, because the US is a democracy only on paper and functions as an oligarchy.
I know this isn't far off from what most sensible people in the US believe, but that being the case HRC differs hardly at all from other politicians that would like to get universal health care and a strong push for green infrastructure on a "let's not call it that
thing" basis.
Here are some items from the 2016 Dem platform Corporate Megabitch Hillary ran on:
"For families making less than $125,000 a year, we will eliminate tuition" for in-state students at public colleges."
"Pass comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship that keeps families together."
"Stand up to Republican-led attacks on this landmark (health care) law—and build on its success to bring the promise of affordable health care to more people and make a 'public option' possible."
"We will do everything we can to overturn Citizens United."
"Fighting for equal pay."
"I will not raise middle-class taxes."
"Say no to attacks on working families and no to bad trade deals and unfair trade practices, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership."
"We're going to increase the federal minimum wage."
"As president, Hillary will expand background checks to more gun sales."
"Clinton would increase federal infrastructure funding by $275 billion over a five-year period."
The only thing that leaps out to me is the ludicrously small infrastructure commitment, if that's what it was.
Is President Donald Trump a Flight Risk? (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/28/is-president-donald-trump-a-flight-risk-433313)
(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190116015911-vladimir-putin-smiles-072018-super-tease.jpg)
No, Puppet.
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 08:29:49 AM
I know this isn't far off from what most sensible people in the US believe, but that being the case HRC differs hardly at all from other politicians that would like to get universal health care and a strong push for green infrastructure on a "let's not call it that thing" basis.
Here are some items from the 2016 Dem platform Corporate Megabitch Hillary ran on:
"For families making less than $125,000 a year, we will eliminate tuition" for in-state students at public colleges."
"Pass comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship that keeps families together."
"Stand up to Republican-led attacks on this landmark (health care) law—and build on its success to bring the promise of affordable health care to more people and make a 'public option' possible."
"We will do everything we can to overturn Citizens United."
"Fighting for equal pay."
"I will not raise middle-class taxes."
"Say no to attacks on working families and no to bad trade deals and unfair trade practices, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership."
"We're going to increase the federal minimum wage."
"As president, Hillary will expand background checks to more gun sales."
"Clinton would increase federal infrastructure funding by $275 billion over a five-year period."
The only thing that leaps out to me is the ludicrously small infrastructure commitment, if that's what it was.
Quoth Ronald St Reagan: "Facts are stupid things."
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 08:29:49 AM
I know this isn't far off from what most sensible people in the US believe, but that being the case HRC differs hardly at all from other politicians that would like to get universal health care and a strong push for green infrastructure on a "let's not call it that thing" basis.
Here are some items from the 2016 Dem platform Corporate Megabitch Hillary ran on:
"For families making less than $125,000 a year, we will eliminate tuition" for in-state students at public colleges."
"Pass comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship that keeps families together."
"Stand up to Republican-led attacks on this landmark (health care) law—and build on its success to bring the promise of affordable health care to more people and make a 'public option' possible."
"We will do everything we can to overturn Citizens United."
"Fighting for equal pay."
"I will not raise middle-class taxes."
"Say no to attacks on working families and no to bad trade deals and unfair trade practices, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership."
"We're going to increase the federal minimum wage."
"As president, Hillary will expand background checks to more gun sales."
"Clinton would increase federal infrastructure funding by $275 billion over a five-year period."
The only thing that leaps out to me is the ludicrously small infrastructure commitment, if that's what it was.
Maybe she should have campaigned in the rust belt talking about these things? It's easy to talk. When you get in power it's different. Maybe you aren't for these things anymore? Are you? People were not sure.
"Stand up to Republican-led attacks on this landmark (health care) law—and build on its success to bring the promise of affordable health care to more people and make a 'public option' possible." is corporate way of rejecting medicare for all without saying it out loud. This is corporate friendly. Health care to
more people? No no, you have to say ALL people! Not 95 % or 99 % but 100 % people. Medicare for ALL!
Quote from: 71 dB on October 29, 2020, 09:57:38 AM
Maybe she should have campaigned in the rust belt talking about these things? It's easy to talk. When you get in power it's different. Maybe you aren't for these things anymore? Are you? People were not sure.
She certainly ought to have spent more time there. She very mistakenly took some of the Midwest for granted. She made "firewall" a punch-line.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 29, 2020, 09:57:38 AM
Maybe she should have campaigned in the rust belt talking about these things? It's easy to talk. When you get in power it's different. Maybe you aren't for these things anymore? Are you? People were not sure.
"Stand up to Republican-led attacks on this landmark (health care) law—and build on its success to bring the promise of affordable health care to more people and make a 'public option' possible."
is corporate way of rejecting medicare for all without saying it out loud. This is corporate friendly. Health care to more people? No no, you have to say ALL people! Not 95 % or 99 % but 100 % people. Medicare for ALL!
I have decided that you are from Finland. You know what it's like to have universal coverage more than what it's like to achieve it in a very different country.
In Demspeak, a language I know, the "public option" means that anyone who doesn't have an Obamacare plan can sign up for a public plan, so while this doesn't cause private insurance to die much quicker than it's dying now, it shields millions of people from the consequences of its dying too soon.
I'm not as concerned with what people are having to say. The shortest route to getting everyone covered will involve people who have said different things at different times.
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 10:33:25 AM
I'm not as concerned with what people are having to say. The shortest route to getting everyone covered will involve people who have said different things at different times.
Verily and forsooth.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 29, 2020, 08:49:51 AM
Quoth Ronald St Reagan: "Facts are stupid things."
Quoth indeed. :)
"Facts are stupid things...
stubborn things, I should say."
[Followed by laughter from Reagan's audience, at the 1988 Republican National Convention]
The 'original' quote is of course is from POTUS John Adams, 1770:
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the states of facts and evidence."
218 years between Adams and Reagan's slip of the tongue (you know, a slip of the tongue, a bit like Biden...).
Only 28 years between Reagan and Trump with his 'alternative facts'... without any slip of the tongue.
On the whole, just a small step in time.
But a giant leap backwards for mankind.
Poju, this, too is opinion, rather than fact, per se, but it is from a center-left guy, so entirely different to Kulinski. about 37 minutes into this podcast (https://podcast.thebulwark.com/will-saletan-on-why-character-matters-after-all) is an opinion about why Biden became the nominee.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 29, 2020, 11:27:42 AM
Poju, this, too is opinion, rather than fact, per se, but it is from a center-left guy, so entirely different to Kulinski. about 37 minutes into this podcast (https://podcast.thebulwark.com/will-saletan-on-why-character-matters-after-all) is an opinion about why Biden became the nominee.
Will Saletan's closing observation: Hillary had a ceiling, there were people who just weren't going to vote for her; Joe Biden is already well above that.
Trump Supporters Pass Out From the Heat at Tampa Rally: Reports (https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-supporters-pass-out-from-the-heat-at-tampa-rally-reports?ref=home)
Freeze 'em, heat 'em, hell with them if they can't take a joke.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 29, 2020, 11:27:42 AM
Poju, this, too is opinion, rather than fact, per se, but it is from a center-left guy, so entirely different to Kulinski. about 37 minutes into this podcast (https://podcast.thebulwark.com/will-saletan-on-why-character-matters-after-all) is an opinion about why Biden became the nominee.
Entirely different to Kulinski? Huh? I'd say Kulinski would agree 75 % with that. How was that entirely different to Kulinski? Huh?
I listened from 36:00 to 42:00 or so
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 03:08:37 PM
Trump Supporters Pass Out From the Heat at Tampa Rally: Reports (https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-supporters-pass-out-from-the-heat-at-tampa-rally-reports?ref=home)
Freeze 'em, heat 'em, hell with them if they can't take a joke.
Trump is testing how close to killing his supporters he can come to and still get their votes... :-X
[..]"Ingraham, a right-wing television host for Fox News in the US, spread misinformation about New Zealand's response to the Covid-19 pandemic, sharing an old clip of Jacinda Ardern and claiming the Government is "throwing people into quarantine camps".
The Fox News host made the claims on her show yesterday, joining a growing number of right-wing pundits overseas who are casting New Zealand's response as a threat to freedom.
"The American left and their media poodles have long held up New Zealand as the model for how to properly deal with a lot of things, including Covid, but anyone who loves freedom should take note because the Kiwis have a terrifying new response to rising Covid case numbers," Ingraham said.
"They're throwing people into quarantine camps."
"No leaving the camp until you're negative," Ingraham adds, putting on a faux New Zealand accent.
To support her claims, Ingraham shared an old Facebook live clip from Jacinda Ardern, originally posted over four months ago.
In that clip, Ardern answers questions from viewers and details the Government's policy of demanding that those in quarantine remain until they return a negative result and enforcing their continued stay if they refuse a test.
What Ingraham calls "quarantine camps" are in fact our managed isolation hotels."[...]
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/covid-19-coronavirus-hilary-barry-responds-to-fox-news-laura-ingrahams-quarantine-camp-comments/SVLW35E7JOTQFTOYCEM2UISYWY/
(https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/4/y/n/w/1/u/image.related.StuffLandscapeThreeByTwo.1464x976.4yon3n.png/1601665913882.jpg)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 29, 2020, 11:34:13 AM
Will Saletan's closing observation: Hillary had a ceiling, there were people who just weren't going to vote for her; Joe Biden is already well above that.
The question is: How close to her ceiling Hillary got? Could she have gotten 100.000 more votes in the rust belt and win with a better campaign?
Biden is doing better for sure. Not because he is a better candidate. He is probably worse than Hillary, but he is less hated and more liked as "uncle Joe" thanks to his charisma and ignorance of people of his bad political record. Also, Trump had excellent populist campaign in 2016 while now he is completely lost. Now people have seen how incompetent Trump is and he is not an "outsider" anymore. He is an "insider" who DID NOT drain the swamp. As Kyle Kulinski says: Trump is so bad of an candidate this time around, a rusty bucket filled with vomit could run against him and still win.
Is Trump's 2016 Magic Gone?https://www.youtube.com/v/PU197mUJI2U
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 10:33:25 AM
I have decided that you are from Finland.
Huh? I am from Finland regardless of what you "decide." :)
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 10:33:25 AMYou know what it's like to have universal coverage more than what it's like to achieve it in a very different country.
A lot of countries, from small to large have figured out how to achieve universal healthcare coverage.
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 10:33:25 AMIn Demspeak, a language I know, the "public option" means that anyone who doesn't have an Obamacare plan can sign up for a public plan, so while this doesn't cause private insurance to die much quicker than it's dying now, it shields millions of people from the consequences of its dying too soon.
The problem here is if you start negotiating with the Republicans (who never give one inch rope) from "public option", how many Americans have you covered more after all the comprimises? That's why you need to start from the furthest left position possible (UK style public financing of public services). After compromising with Republicans you might have public option.
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 10:33:25 AMI'm not as concerned with what people are having to say. The shortest route to getting everyone covered will involve people who have said different things at different times.
Looks like the shortest route to getting everyone covered is getting money out of politics so that politicians start of serve regular people instead of corporations and the rich only.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 29, 2020, 04:10:21 PM
Huh? I am from Finland regardless of what you "decide." :)
My decision is final.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 29, 2020, 04:10:21 PM
Looks like the shortest route to getting everyone covered is getting money out of politics so that politicians start of serve regular people instead of corporations and the rich only.
Bidencare doesn't depend on getting money out of politics. Rather than attacking money directly I'd go for a new voting rights bill which the new improved SC will find ultra ultra constitutional.
One of the beauties of the American Constitution is that no matter who is in charge. we all have certain rights that can not be taken away from us.
If Biden is elected those mechanisms will stay in place.
If Trump is reelected and he destroys the constitution and the rule of law, then no ones rights are safe.
Quote from: Todd on October 27, 2020, 06:36:35 AM
He also wrote about space aliens in this thread. Take from that what you will.
USA politics and space aliens. Well, well, well... how many millions are wasted yearly by the Pentagon UFO Unit?
No wonder people want lower taxes.
Quote from: Sterna on October 30, 2020, 01:11:40 AM
USA politics and space aliens. Well, well, well... how many millions are wasted yearly by the Pentagon UFO Unit?
No wonder people want lower taxes.
So what are the statistics regarding fierce UFO + Trump 'believers' ?
An - admittedly outside - guess would be that they quite often correlate.
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 30, 2020, 01:49:10 AM
So what are the statistics regarding fierce UFO + Trump 'believers' ?
An - admittedly outside - guess would be that they quite often correlate.
I couln't tell. At least it's genuine 'Reader's Digest' stuff, stuff which is published by
Trusted Media Brands, Inc.. So no fake news here. Therefore it's taken so seriously by American governments.
Quote from: drogulus on October 29, 2020, 04:41:32 PM
Bidencare doesn't depend on getting money out of politics. Rather than attacking money directly I'd go for a new voting rights bill which the new improved SC will find ultra ultra constitutional.
BidenCare as far as I know doesn't cover everyone, but 97 % meaning the rest 3 % (~10 million people) remain uncovered. That's if Biden gets to implement it entirely without compromising with Republicans who want to repeal ObamaCare and cover LESS people (Only the rich and maybe upper middle class have healthcare. Others can die away).
Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2020, 03:43:29 AM
BidenCare as far as I know doesn't cover everyone, but 97 % meaning the rest 3 % (~10 million people) remain uncovered. That's if Biden gets to implement it entirely without compromising with Republicans who want to repeal ObamaCare and cover LESS people (Only the rich and maybe upper middle class have healthcare. Others can die away).
If those are the choices let's cover 97%. The virtue of a plan with a public option is that it's a practical base camp to covering 100%.
Trump's chances hinge on a polling screw-up way worse than 2016 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/30/trump-chances-polling-433657)
Duh.
Quote from: arpeggio on October 29, 2020, 12:45:49 AM
Actually removing Dowder's most outrageous posts would be doing him a favor.
As it stands they are a monument to his distorted sense of reality.
And to how Trumpkins lack any filter.
To simplify a little, the Florida vote count will come in fairly early, and a Biden win could clinch it for him. If Trump wins Florida, all eyes will be on Pennsylvania, which will be very late to complete the count, perhaps by Friday, though depending on the size of the blue shift the race will be called before then. When will we know who won? My bet is on late Thursday night if it isn't a landslide.
Whatever the outcome on November 3, Trump will claim a yuge victory, the yugest ever won by a president in american history. That's when the troubles will start.
In the history of modern elections in the US there has virtually been no voter fraud.
You can read up on that.
Also, the only cases of voter fraud this year have been Republican shenanigans, that probably don't worry you as much.
I was upset to read about at least one voting box being set on fire (in Boston); luckily they were able to save a bunch of the ballots. Hopefully those whose votes weren't legible will be able to resubmit their votes. Has anyone heard about other boxes being vandalized/destroyed?
PD
Quote from: Dowder on October 30, 2020, 11:38:55 AM
Thanks for the links, Commissar Herm. ::)
The GOP in California we're trying to prevent the illegal Dem power grab. The ballot drop offs were to prevent the likely destroying of anyone in a blue state voting red.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fresnobee.com/news/local/article246396930.html (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fresnobee.com/news/local/article246396930.html)
Only a GOP person would think more people voting is a Democratic power grab.
Quote from: Dowder on October 30, 2020, 11:38:55 AM
Thanks for the links, Commissar Herm. ::)
The GOP in California we're trying to prevent the illegal Dem power grab. The ballot drop offs were to prevent the likely destroying of anyone in a blue state voting red.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fresnobee.com/news/local/article246396930.html (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fresnobee.com/news/local/article246396930.html)
God, you're about as dumb as dirt. QAnon is up your arse too, right?
Quote from: Dowder on October 30, 2020, 12:42:28 PM
You're an open border lolbertarian. Of course millions of illegals voting doesn't bother you.
To vote legitimately, there's a lot more that goes into it to become eligible. I should know, my wife is a permanent resident, not a US citizen. She can't vote and she knows it. But keep on throwing up shit on the wall to see if it actually sticks. God, you're a fool.
Quote from: Dowder on October 30, 2020, 12:42:28 PM
You're an open border lolbertarian. Of course millions of illegals voting doesn't bother you.
Well, if millions of illegals voted, I would be bothered. But there's no evidence that hundreds of illegals voted, much less millions.
OTOH, there are thousands of legal citizens who are kept from voting by GOP suppression efforts.
Quote from: Dowder on October 30, 2020, 12:42:28 PM
Of course millions of illegals voting doesn't bother you.
No, 'cause they don't.
It's formally impossible to vote if you're an illegal immigrant.
Quote from: Dowder on October 30, 2020, 12:42:28 PM
You're an open border lolbertarian. Of course millions of illegals voting doesn't bother you.
You might have to provide some evidence for this one...
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 30, 2020, 11:35:27 AM
I was upset to read about at least one voting box being set on fire (in Boston); luckily they were able to save a bunch of the ballots. Hopefully those whose votes weren't legible will be able to resubmit their votes. Has anyone heard about other boxes being vandalized/destroyed?
PD
I believe nearly all (or all) of the ballots were identified and the voters were notified, as heard on a clip from a local news station.
If millions of illegal immigrants successfully managed to vote under the noses of the California GOP, they deserve to be citizens right now if not sooner. We need their talents very strongly.
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 30, 2020, 02:03:32 PM
I believe nearly all (or all) of the ballots were identified and the voters were notified, as heard on a clip from a local news station.
That's how you catch fraudsters, right? We'll notify them right back to where they came from. Stamp out Satan!
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 30, 2020, 02:03:32 PM
I believe nearly all (or all) of the ballots were identified and the voters were notified, as heard on a clip from a local news station.
Thanks. I found this too: https://whdh.com/news/boston-resident-says-her-vote-is-accounted-for-after-ballot-box-burned/
Wonder whether or not it was the same guy who also tried to set a mailbox on fire nearby? See article for details.
PD
p.s. I was going to drop off my mail-in vote yesterday, but made the mistake of trying to use a black Sharpie. As it was a two-sided ballot, it actually bled on through. I was told (after contacting my town clerk) that it probably would be hand-counted then and that it shouldn't invalidate my vote(s), but I decided to be on the safe side and just go in myself and vote; and, yes, I'll shred my paper one today.
A double whammy from AmPo:
Whammy 1:
Judges nominated by President Trump play key role in upholding voting limits ahead of Election Day
An analysis by The Washington Post found that nearly three out of four opinions issued in voting-related cases by federal judges nominated by the president favored maintaining restrictions. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/31/trump-judges-voting-rights/?arc404=true)
Duh.
Whammy 2:
With Election Day looming, an anxious nation hears rumblings of violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/fear-of-election-violence/2020/10/30/5b4f5314-17a3-11eb-befb-8864259bd2d8_story.html)
Spook the elderly.
Speaking of violence, I'll link this thread
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericcervini/status/1322336226792321025
My son worked on both of Obama/Biden's campaigns, attended the 2008 election night celebrations in Chicago, then Philadelphia in 2012. There was unbounded enthusiasm, energy and excitement. He told me he would never set foot in the US this time. Much too dangerous.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-30/trump-seen-flexing-his-clemency-power-after-nov-3-win-or-lose
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-trump-faces-lawsuits-and-legal-threats/
(https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Screen-Shot-2020-10-30-at-4.36.37-PM.png?w=575)
I'll probably go to bed before Florida is called unless the margin is larger than it's expected to be.
Go, Lone Star State!
More than 10,000 Texans cast ballots overnight in Harris County's 24-hour vote centers.
The Trouble with the 'It's Not Real Fascism' Argument (https://thebulwark.com/the-trouble-with-the-its-not-real-fascism-argument/)
Brian Karem:
"In short, there is nothing notably Christian about Donald Trump's supposed Christianity and no reason a Christian would see him as such. His evangelical supporters' ability to turn a blind eye to his massive lack of piety is incredible.
He spends most of his Sundays on the back nine at his favorite self-owned golf clubs. He ignores the ravages of the coronavirus pandemic because he doesn't know how to handle it and is reduced to letting it rage in a futile attempt to obtain "herd immunity" at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead Americans.
While Jesus told us those who live by the sword will die by the sword, modern evangelicals support a president who lives by "might makes right," whose government caged children and reportedly forced hysterectomies on undocumented immigrants.
Many of these evangelicals have been showing up for the Trump tent revival traveling road show in the last weeks of the election. They were among those this week who were stranded in the freezing cold at an Ohio rally and passed out under the hot sun in a Florida rally.
Not since William Jennings Bryan—another famous "fly-catcher," as H.L. Mencken lampooned him—has an American politician so successfully conned the nation.
But while Donald Trump's cons are obvious and abhorrent to many, they are just as easily believed and easily embraced by others.
Next week it will be put up or shut up time for the United States of America."
My PhD dissertation actually is on the impact of nationalistic nativist trends on international engagement. Donald Trump is the poster child.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/09/15/us-image-plummets-internationally-as-most-say-country-has-handled-coronavirus-badly/
Look upon me! I'll show you the life of the mind!
https://twitter.com/i/status/1317920644336513024
Quote from: JBS on October 31, 2020, 08:26:04 AM
Speaking of violence, I'll link this thread
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericcervini/status/1322336226792321025
The curious thing is that BLM and antifa don't seem to be trying to create election problems. They aren't cooperating with the narrative the extreme right groups want to establish that the election is endangered by violent left wingers. So far it looks like the FBI made the right call, and Wray will be gone very soon.
I think the idea that Trump will lose and sneak away in the dark of night is less plausible than another scenario, which is Bad Orange Man goes on a pardonpalooza of such grandeur that there won't be anyone left to rat on him except the incumbent rats like Cohen. By a strange twist of fate Barr might limit the damage. It sounds crazy but there are faint signs that he has a limit, whether that's due to possible personal consequences or something almost like duty to his office is impossible to say, so I will. It's some of both.
Cenk Uygur's election prediction: Biden 335 - Trump 203.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 31, 2020, 09:30:00 AM
Brian Karem:
"In short, there is nothing notably Christian about Donald Trump's supposed Christianity and no reason a Christian would see him as such. His evangelical supporters' ability to turn a blind eye to his massive lack of piety is incredible.
He spends most of his Sundays on the back nine at his favorite self-owned golf clubs. He ignores the ravages of the coronavirus pandemic because he doesn't know how to handle it and is reduced to letting it rage in a futile attempt to obtain "herd immunity" at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead Americans.
While Jesus told us those who live by the sword will die by the sword, modern evangelicals support a president who lives by "might makes right," whose government caged children and reportedly forced hysterectomies on undocumented immigrants.
Many of these evangelicals have been showing up for the Trump tent revival traveling road show in the last weeks of the election. They were among those this week who were stranded in the freezing cold at an Ohio rally and passed out under the hot sun in a Florida rally.
Not since William Jennings Bryan—another famous "fly-catcher," as H.L. Mencken lampooned him—has an American politician so successfully conned the nation.
But while Donald Trump's cons are obvious and abhorrent to many, they are just as easily believed and easily embraced by others.
Next week it will be put up or shut up time for the United States of America."
On behalf of Bryan I will object to a comparison between him and Trump. (And Mencken had a low opinion of almost everyone.)
He was an actual believer in the tenets of fundamentalist Protestantism, and he resigned from his position of Secretary of State as a protest against Wilson's increasing hawkishness against Germany after the sinking of the Lusitania. Imagine Trump doing anything like that.
Quote from: drogulus on October 31, 2020, 12:19:23 PM
The curious thing is that BLM and antifa don't seem to be trying to create election problems. They aren't cooperating with the narrative the extreme right groups want to establish that the election is endangered by violent left wingers. So far it looks like the FBI made the right call, and Wray will be gone very soon.
I think the idea that Trump will lose and sneak away in the dark of night is less plausible than another scenario, which is Bad Orange Man goes on a pardonpalooza of such grandeur that there won't be anyone left to rat on him except the incumbent rats like Cohen. By a strange twist of fate Barr might limit the damage. It sounds crazy but there are faint signs that he has a limit, whether that's due to possible personal consequences or something almost like duty to his office is impossible to say, so I will. It's some of both.
In fact a pardon will hurt Trump in some of those cases. Once pardoned, they won't be in danger of incriminating themselves, so they can't plead the Fifth if called to testify for Congress, grand juries, and trials (civil and criminal). So any dirt they have on Trump would come out as evidence.
That's the likely reason Trump commuted Stone's sentence but didn't pardon him. It allowed Stone to still plead the Fifth.
(https://i.redd.it/t5ir8x6xm9l31.png)
From a year ago, but just finding this now.
Although it could have been just a dream, you know, back at the time the mainstream media said that Antifa was imaginary, so it must be true.
Quote from: JBS on October 31, 2020, 05:57:15 PM
In fact a pardon will hurt Trump in some of those cases. Once pardoned, they won't be in danger of incriminating themselves, so they can't plead the Fifth if called to testify for Congress, grand juries, and trials (civil and criminal). So any dirt they have on Trump would come out as evidence.
That's the likely reason Trump commuted Stone's sentence but didn't pardon him. It allowed Stone to still plead the Fifth.
Yeah, it's not like any former trumpies would lie under oath. ::)
Quote from: Daverz on October 31, 2020, 06:22:02 PM
Yeah, it's not like any former trumpies would lie under oath. ::)
Indeed. But they could be prosecuted for that since it would be post-pardon.
Quote from: JBS on October 31, 2020, 06:33:40 PM
Indeed. But they could be prosecuted for that since it would be post-pardon.
Sadly
https://www.google.com/search?q=prosecution+for+perjury+rare
Quote from: JBS on October 31, 2020, 05:57:15 PM
In fact a pardon will hurt Trump in some of those cases. Once pardoned, they won't be in danger of incriminating themselves, so they can't plead the Fifth if called to testify for Congress, grand juries, and trials (civil and criminal). So any dirt they have on Trump would come out as evidence.
That's the likely reason Trump commuted Stone's sentence but didn't pardon him. It allowed Stone to still plead the Fifth.
Good point, maybe he's screwed if he loses whatever he does.
Quote from: greg on October 31, 2020, 06:00:15 PM
(https://i.redd.it/t5ir8x6xm9l31.png)
From a year ago, but just finding this now.
Although it could have been just a dream, you know, back at the time the mainstream media said that Antifa was imaginary, so it must be true.
Nobody says antifa is imaginary. I think this guy is doing a great job and I support what he does. Here's how he got started:
While this was not his first country gig at the Silver Dollar Lounge, it was his most significant. After he and his band finished their set, Davis was approached by a patron who was around 15 years his senior. Not an unusual occurrence for a working musician. However, while praising Davis on his performance, the patron candidly noted that he had never seen a black man who could play like Jerry Lee Lewis.
More curious than offended, Davis used this encounter as an opportunity for friendly discourse rather than outrage. "I explained to this older white guy that Jerry Lee Lewis was influenced by the same black boogie-woogie and blues piano players as I was," Davis says with a chuckle. "He didn't believe me. Then I told him that Jerry Lewis is a good friend of mine and well, he didn't believe that either, but he was fascinated."
"So he asks me to join him for a drink," he continues. "I don't drink so I had a glass of cranberry juice and then he took his glass and cheered me. Then he said, 'You know, this is the first time I ever sat down and had a drink with a black person.' I was instantly curious and thought, 'What's going on here?' So I asked him why. He didn't answer at first but eventually admitted that he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan." My opinion of anarchists is generally low. Frustrated idealists are closet absolutists.
Quote from: JBS on October 31, 2020, 05:51:30 PM
On behalf of Bryan I will object to a comparison between him and Trump. (And Mencken had a low opinion of almost everyone.)
He was an actual believer in the tenets of fundamentalist Protestantism, and he resigned from his position of Secretary of State as a protest against Wilson's increasing hawkishness against Germany after the sinking of the Lusitania. Imagine Trump doing anything like that.
Your quarrel is just.
And in Greg's home state it was Trump supporters - not 'Antifa' - that harrassed the Biden - Harris bus on the highway, creating dangerous situations while calling Biden a communist and trying to box him in on the road.
Quote from: drogulus on October 31, 2020, 07:00:33 PM
Nobody says antifa is imaginary. I think this guy is doing a great job and I support what he does. Here's how he got started:
The idea seemed to be floating around a while ago, though, saw it in a few different places in a short amount of time...
it was probably some other words as well being used, the idea floating around that Antifa isn't real, etc.
if we go back a bit:
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 21, 2020, 05:10:05 AM
The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant.
This guy used the word "imaginary" around that time:
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/1591161757985/ex-antifa-member-slams-nadler-for-calling-far-left-group-imaginary-thats-just-false
Quote from: drogulus on October 31, 2020, 07:00:33 PM
I think this guy is doing a great job and I support what he does.
Definitely.
Quote from: Herman on October 31, 2020, 07:15:39 PM
And in Greg's home state it was Trump supporters - not 'Antifa' - that harrassed the Biden - Harris bus on the highway, creating dangerous situations while calling Biden a communist and trying to box him in on the road.
*current state (only lived here one year)
And yeah, those people are idiots. Absolutely retarded.
Quote from: greg on October 31, 2020, 09:28:51 PM
And yeah, those people are idiots. Absolutely retarded.
And yet you don't seem to be anywhere near as worried about these things as about Antifa.
The discussion about whether Antifa is an organization is genuine. These are just ad hoc groups that respond to social media alerts.
Well, the same goes for these alt-right groups that appear out of nowhere and wreck things.
Fox and the White House do not condemn the latter instances, which is why some people are not as excercised about them.
Quote from: Herman on October 31, 2020, 07:15:39 PM
And in Greg's home state it was Trump supporters - not 'Antifa' - that harrassed the Biden - Harris bus on the highway, creating dangerous situations while calling Biden a communist and trying to box him in on the road.
Quote from: Herman on November 01, 2020, 12:16:49 AM
The discussion about whether Antifa is an organization is genuine. These are just ad hoc groups that respond to social media alerts.
Well, the same goes for these alt-right groups that appear out of nowhere and wreck things.
Bothsiderism! :D :D :D
Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2020, 04:47:50 PM
Cenk Uygur's election prediction: Biden 335 - Trump 203.
Do we dare to be that optimistic?
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 01, 2020, 01:49:21 AM
Do we dare to be that optimistic?
You are just as optimistic or pessimistic as you want. Those are Cenk Uygur's numbers. Soon we will see how wrong he was.
Biden is nationally up about 8 %. People are overcorrecting because of what happened in 2016 thinking you can't trust the polls, but in 2016 Hillary was 3 % up in the polls and won popular vote by 2 % so the polls were not that wrong. She just got "too many" votes in blue states and not enough in the rust belt and lost the electorate vote. As a matter of fact the polling has been finetuned since 2016 to take likely voters into account better and the polls are a little bit more favorable to Trump than they were in 2016. That makes Biden's victory even more likely.
These predictions are about regular polling, not about vastly manipulated elections. (I believe Trump's word is 'rigged'.) They don't make Biden's real win more likely. They only show what would happen in unrigged elections.
In republican run states hundreds of thousands of votes are going to be thrown out on capricious rules put in place specifically to reduce the vote. It's the only way, as Trump and any other GOP-er will admit, the GOP can win, and they are dead-set to do just that, and use the next few years to put more crazy rules in place to ensure a permanent counterintuitive majority.
Assuming Trump loses he will still be the Lame Duck President for a few months and he will make the blue states "pay." The coronavirus situation may get REALLY bad when this madman wants the virus to kill people who didn't vote for him.
Quote from: Herman on November 01, 2020, 02:32:28 AM
These predictions are about regular polling, not about vastly manipulated elections. (I believe Trump's word is 'rigged'.) They don't make Biden's real win more likely. They only show what would happen in unrigged elections.
In republican run states hundreds of thousands of votes are going to be thrown out on capricious rules put in place specifically to reduce the vote. It's the only way, as Trump and any other GOP-er will admit, the GOP can win, and they are dead-set to do just that, and use the next few years to put more crazy rules in place to ensure a permanent counterintuitive majority.
Yes, Trump can win by giant election fraud, by letting his 6-3 far-right lunatic theocracy supreme court steal him the election, but if that happens the US is a dictatorship and the whole election has been meaningless.
Democratic voters need to start voting for the furthest left candidates and replace the hopeless spineless corporate Dems in power who don't fight Republicans. The only time that fight if it's against a progressive. Crazy. Anyway, I have been checking myself out of US politics. I want to spend my time more productively. My intense following of US politics started with Trumps shocking victory in 2016 and hopefully it ends now with Biden's victory. Four years wasted... ::)
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 02:42:43 AM
Assuming Trump loses he will still be the Lame Duck President for a few months and he will make the blue states "pay." The coronavirus situation may get REALLY bad when this madman wants the virus to kill people who didn't vote for him.
Oh, it's one of the few things he's Equal Opportunity in.
Trump rallies kill Trump fans.
Quote from: Herman on November 01, 2020, 02:56:40 AM
Trump rallies kill Trump fans.
They are just tired of winning... ...so tired some of them die.
In my youth I thought the World is pretty rational and humaine place. Lack of internet kept me from knowing what's happening in the World. I saw some wars on the TV news, but I thought there are good reasons for them and after the war there will be peace. Gradually I started to see that things are not so good. Conflicts seemed to be never-ending. New wars just popped out of nowhere. Michael Moore talked about the problems of US healthcare, but I thought the man must be a lunatic sensationalist trying to cash in by making his crazy films. The US is the richest country in the World. Of course they have a great healthcare system, right? Bush dumber got elected. I thought it was a anomality, but it was when I really started to question the US as a country. 9/11 happened and it was a huge shock for me. The wars resulting from it made me question even more the rationality of the World. What the hell is happening on this planet? Why are there wars when the World should unite to fight the climate change? Why are there people who do not even believe in climate change? The internet opened the World to me and what I discovered was shocking. The World is not rational nor humaine. There are just pockets of rationalily and humanism in the chaos created by greed and ignorance. Obama was elected in 2008 and I thought the anomality in the US got fixed. Everything is fine. Obama seemed like a good guy. Of course now I know better. He has great charisma, but is nevertheless a corporate. If you can start a war to enrich the military industry complex he will do it. If you can "protect" insurance companies and Big Pharma by implementing a Republican healthcare plan from the 80's, he will do it. No talk about public option not to mention medicare for all. Even when the Dems had supermajority for 18 months. Imagine what the Republicans could do in that time if they had supermajority! Now that I know how utterly ugly and horrible the World is it's time to re-evaluate how to live in it. Seems like I should become very selfish, because this World works better for selfish people. It's just so much against my moral code. It's difficult to not care about other people. I am confused.
Election week. One thing I am keenly interested in seeing is if symptoms of Trump Derangement Syndrome persist after Super-Creepy 46's electoral triumph. I suspect the disease will persist.
In the case that all the stuff the GOP has put into gear to disqualify masses of votes won't do the job; should the stories about cunning Trump voters who tell poll enquiries they're voting Biden be untrue; should Biden win next week, there will be people who will be calling for "Lock Trump Up", sure.
That won't be a majority however, I suspect.
Quote from: greg on October 31, 2020, 09:28:51 PM
The idea seemed to be floating around a while ago, though, saw it in a few different places in a short amount of time...
it was probably some other words as well being used, the idea floating around that Antifa isn't real, etc.
if we go back a bit:
This guy used the word "imaginary" around that time:
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/1591161757985/ex-antifa-member-slams-nadler-for-calling-far-left-group-imaginary-thats-just-false
Definitely.
*current state (only lived here one year)
And yeah, those people are idiots. Absolutely retarded.
You quoted me but emphasized the wrong word. Antifa is imaginary in two ways: Despite groups of people claiming they are Antifa in some formal sense, being Antifa doesn't mean being a member of a group. More importantly, it's an imaginary
terrorist group because they don't actually do terrorism. Counter protesting white supremacists and fascists and punching the occasional Nazi in the face isn't terrorism.
"The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary
terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant."
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 01, 2020, 04:56:44 AM
You quoted me but emphasized the wrong word. Antifa is imaginary in two ways: Despite groups of people claiming they are Antifa in some formal sense, being Antifa doesn't mean being a member of a group. More importantly, it's an imaginary terrorist group because they don't actually do terrorism. Counter protesting white supremacists and fascists and punching the occasional Nazi in the face isn't terrorism.
"The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant."
Which spells out the false equivalency which is the fallacy of those living in bothesiderism
Quote from: Herman on November 01, 2020, 04:48:42 AM
In the case that all the stuff the GOP has put into gear to disqualify masses of votes won't do the job; should the stories about cunning Trump voters who tell poll enquiries they're voting Biden be untrue; should Biden win next week, there will be people who will be calling for "Lock Trump Up", sure.
That won't be a majority however, I suspect.
Yes, prosecutors, judges, and jurors after prosecution for multiple felonies.
Is George Will right, will Super-Creepy 46 be the first person since 41 to win more than 400 electoral votes?
Anyone who does not think that the overwhelming majority of early voters to date are anti-Trump is delusional.
But of course, one must always allow for the Democrat ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. See 2000 and 2016.
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 01, 2020, 05:03:35 AM
Yes, people called prosecutors, judges, and jurors after prosecution for multiple felonies.
Evidence of the virulence of the disease. Excellent.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 01, 2020, 04:59:45 AM
bothesiderism
Questions from a non-American:
1. Do both sides have their share of fanatics and (useful) idiots?
2. If yes: Given the proper circumstances, can these fanatics and (useful) idiots on both sides do a lot of harm?
Quote from: Todd on November 01, 2020, 05:04:55 AM
Is George Will right, will Super-Creepy 46 be the first person since 41 to win more than 400 electoral votes?
Anyone who does not think that the overwhelming majority of early voters to date are anti-Trump is delusional.
But of course, one must always allow for the Democrat ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. See 2000 and 2016.
Evidence of the virulence of the disease. Excellent.
Evidence of knowing the evidence in several investigations. Do you forget that Michael Cohen got three years for a couple of crimes in which Trump was the more culpable partner and for which there are likely sealed indictments pending?
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 05:05:00 AM
Questions from a non-American:
1. Do both sides have their share of fanatics and (useful) idiots?
2. If yes: Given the proper circumstances, can these fanatics and (useful) idiots on both sides do a lot of harm?
Not really. Serious violence and murder has been almost exclusively on the side of right wing groups white supremacists.
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 01, 2020, 05:06:51 AM
Evidence of knowing the evidence in several investigations. Do you forget that Michael Cohen got three years for a couple of crimes in which Trump was the more culpable partner?
More evidence. GMG will provide fresh evidence daily of the virulence and long-lasting nature of TDS.
Quote from: Todd on November 01, 2020, 05:10:54 AM
More evidence. GMG will provide fresh evidence daily of the virulence and long-lasting nature of TDS.
There are ongoing investigations into Trump's perennial financial crimes and he has been named (Person One) as an (as yet) unindicted co-conspirator in several felonies. I'm assuming you're just feigning ignorance of these facts? Or do you really not pay attention?
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 01, 2020, 05:24:34 AM
There are ongoing investigations into Trump's perennial financial crimes and he has been named (Person One) as an (as yet) unindicted co-conspirator in several felonies. I'm assuming you're just feigning ignorance of these facts? Or do you really not pay attention?
More evidence. Delightful.
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 05:05:00 AM
Questions from a non-American:
1. Do both sides have their share of fanatics and (useful) idiots?
2. If yes: Given the proper circumstances, can these fanatics and (useful) idiots on both sides do a lot of harm?
1. I don't think there are "sides" without fanatics and useful idiots to begin with. People are individuals with opinions disagreeing or agreeing with other people. Forcing people choose their sides is a method for those in power to make people blame each other for their misery when they should be blaming those rigging the system.
2. Of course and harm has been done already. Those in power don't care. They are quite safe inside their mansions equipped with security devices. If you can make $10 million/year with the rigged system which causes fanatics and useful idiots do harm, but you only need to spend $1 million/year to your top notch security you net $9 million/year. It's a damn good of a deal! Any morally bankrupt individual who doesn't care about other people would make it.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 05:31:27 AM
1. I don't think there are "sides" without fanatics and useful idiots to begin with. People are individuals with opinions disagreeing or agreeing with other people. Forcing people choose their sides is a method for those in power to make people blame each other for their misery when they should be blaming those rigging the system.
Not clear to me why a Finn who largely identifies with the far left offers an explanation to this question from a non-American, which is a request for information not mere opinion.
well, strictly speaking, these were "questions from a non-american". It didn't say response from an natchral-born american was required.
also, it may have eluded you that Finn in question has an inside source, name of Kulinsky, so that the Finn really knows more than can be expected from an American, making it the most American response, really.
I believe he explained this himself at some point, with frequent use of the word "corporate".
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 01, 2020, 05:06:51 AM
Not really. Serious violence and murder has been almost exclusively on the side of right wing groups white supremacists.
Yes, but that doesn't mean there are no fanatics and useful idiots on the left also. There's just a lot more on the right so that almost all domestic terrorism in the US is done by right wing extremists. Part of intellectual honesty is to admit YOUR side has problems too. That's how you can try to fix those issues. For example the left could be less "woke", less "SJW" and less anarchist and instead come together and concentrate on how to achieve things. How to get medicare for all implemented? How to get $15 minimum wage? How to get UBI? How to get tuition free education? How to end the drug war? How to end the wars? How to get the Green New Deal implemented? That stuff is million times more important than the logo of Uncle Ben's or Ghostbusters movies with dark skinned lesbians in the major roles. The left should be more strategic and focused in the most important things and be effective in "selling" those ideas to other people. Lefty ideas are already very popular so this should not be too hard, but something has to happen so that this popularity of lefty ideas shows in the politicians elected. 80-90 % of Democratic voters support medicare for all, but their are "forced" to vote for a candidate is strongly against it. Something has to change. The left need to be wiser.
Quote from: Herman on November 01, 2020, 05:42:26 AM
well, strictly speaking, these were "questions from a non-american". It didn't say response from an natchral-born american was required.
also, it may have eluded you that Finn in question has an inside source, name of Kulinsky, so that the Finn really knows more than can be expected from an American, making it the most American response, really.
I believe he explained this himself at some point, with frequent use of the word "corporate".
I was forgetting.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 05:54:57 AM
Yes, but that doesn't mean there are no fanatics and useful idiots on the left also. There's just a lot more on the right so that almost all domestic terrorism in the US is done by right wing extremists. Part of intellectual honesty is to admit YOUR side has problems too. That's how you can try to fix those issues. For example the left could be less "woke", less "SJW" and less anarchist and instead come together and concentrate on how to achieve things. How to get medicare for all implemented? How to get $15 minimum wage? How to get UBI? How to get tuition free education? How to end the drug war? How to end the wars? How to get the Green New Deal implemented? That stuff is million times more important than the logo of Uncle Ben's or Ghostbusters movies with dark skinned lesbians in the major roles. The left should be more strategic and focused in the most important things and be effective in "selling" those ideas to other people. Lefty ideas are already very popular so this should not be too hard, but something has to happen so that this popularity of lefty ideas shows in the politicians elected. 80-90 % of Democratic voters support medicare for all, but their are "forced" to vote for a candidate is strongly against it. Something has to change. The left need to be wiser.
You should contact the DNC stat. Here you go: https://democrats.org/contact-us/
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 01, 2020, 05:37:40 AM
Not clear to me why a Finn who largely identifies with the far left offers an explanation to this question from a non-American, which is a request for information not mere opinion.
I don't identify with the
far left. I identify with the left. If you look at me through the US Overton window, I am "far left", but that's because the Overton Window has moved so far right. If the Overton Window were where it should be "centered", I would appear somewhere between the center and the left end of the window. People like Biden who don't support medicare for all are actually quite right, because the idea that not 100 % of people needs to be covered is very radical. The REAL far left (socialists and communists) don't believe in capitalism at all. I do believe in capitalism in many things. Capitalism makes better cars than communism for example, but I am not a fool who thinks capitalism works best in everything. That's why you need to mix capitalism and socialism in a smart way to optimaze the result and that mixture is called social democracy. I don't care if Karl "brainwashed by corporate media" Henning thinks I am too non-American or too left to answer.
A rap sheet for a former president
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/rap-sheet-trump-crimes/2020/10/16/c6a539da-0e61-11eb-8a35-237ef1eb2ef7_story.html)
In his report, Mueller avoided accusing Trump of a crime because Justice Department policy prohibited him from filing charges against a sitting president. Mueller reasoned that making the accusation when no trial could occur would deprive Trump of the opportunity to defend himself in court. He made clear, however, that his report was intended to "preserve the evidence" obtained in his investigation because "a President does not have immunity after he leaves office."
Biden has said he would leave the business of the Justice Department to his attorney general. So it would fall to a future attorney general to decide whether to accept Mueller's invitation to investigate and charge the 45th president with crimes. Charging a former president is fraught. We do not want to become a country where presidents are routinely charged after they leave office with crimes stemming from policy decisions, but we also do not want to be a country where a president can commit crimes with impunity, knowing he will not be held accountable.Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 05:54:57 AM
Yes, but that doesn't mean there are no fanatics and useful idiots on the left also. There's just a lot more on the right so that almost all domestic terrorism in the US is done by right wing extremists. Part of intellectual honesty is to admit YOUR side has problems too. That's how you can try to fix those issues. For example the left could be less "woke", less "SJW" and less anarchist and instead come together and concentrate on how to achieve things. How to get medicare for all implemented? How to get $15 minimum wage? How to get UBI? How to get tuition free education? How to end the drug war? How to end the wars? How to get the Green New Deal implemented? That stuff is million times more important than the logo of Uncle Ben's or Ghostbusters movies with dark skinned lesbians in the major roles. The left should be more strategic and focused in the most important things and be effective in "selling" those ideas to other people. Lefty ideas are already very popular so this should not be too hard, but something has to happen so that this popularity of lefty ideas shows in the politicians elected. 80-90 % of Democratic voters support medicare for all, but their are "forced" to vote for a candidate is strongly against it. Something has to change. The left need to be wiser.
I've decided you are from Massachusetts.
The success of an economic program provides the space for positive social change. The 2016 election was the clearest illustration yet of this base reality. Red Zoners are screwed by their politicians and the Dems either can't reach them or ignore them. The rust belt is left to rot.
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 01, 2020, 05:06:51 AM
Not really. Serious violence and murder has been almost exclusively on the side of right wing groups white supremacists.
Thanks for replying, but honestly I think you conflated two questions in one answer. Allow me to separate them.
My first question was:
Do both sides have their share of fanatics and (useful) idiots?Your answer:
Not really..
My second question was:
If yes: Given the proper circumstances, can these fanatics and (useful) idiots on both sides do a lot of harm?Your answer:
Serious violence and murder has been almost exclusively on the side of right wing groups white supremacistsThanks for answering. again. I have some supplementary questions, if I may:
1. What do you mean by "serious"? Where do you draw the line between "serious violence and murder" and "trivial violence and murder"?
2. according to you, "right wing groups white supremacists" have been given, and taken full advantage of, proper circumstances. Fine. Let me rephrase my second question: are there no far-left groups which given the proper circumstances will retort to just as serious violence and murder as the right-wing groups?
Quote from: drogulus on November 01, 2020, 06:33:54 AMI've decided you are from Massachusetts.
Okay. Interesting. Maybe if I talked more about coffee drinking and sauna you would decide again I'm from Finland?
Quote from: drogulus on November 01, 2020, 06:33:54 AMThe rust belt is left to rot.
That's the reason why the rust belt is called that and not
the belt of prosperity. :-\
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 01, 2020, 05:37:40 AM
Not clear to me why a Finn who largely identifies with the far left offers an explanation to this question from a non-American, which is a request for information not mere opinion.
Quote from: Herman on November 01, 2020, 05:42:26 AM
well, strictly speaking, these were "questions from a non-american". It didn't say response from an natchral-born american was required.
You are both right, guys, paradoxically as it may sound!
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 05:31:27 AM
1. I don't think there are "sides" without fanatics and useful idiots to begin with. People are individuals with opinions disagreeing or agreeing with other people. Forcing people choose their sides is a method for those in power to make people blame each other for their misery when they should be blaming those rigging the system.
You know what, Poju? If I have in mind Romania and Romanian politics I completely agree with you. The difference between Finland and Romania is that the Romanian Social-Democratic Party is the most corrupt, demagogic, xenophobic and populist Romanian party*. Don't get me wrong, all Romanian parties post 1989 have been all of the above in various degrees but the Social-Democrats are absolute and unchallenged champions in this respect and the one and only party which constantly and relentlessly waged legislative war against the independence of the judiciary, a war they lost because of massive civic and civil protests of which I was a small but devoted part. Since 1990 until this year I voted for a lot of different parties, yet my principle was always the same: never ever for the Social=Democrats, always for whichever party has the greatest chance of defeating them.
*besides being the direct heir, via various name changes and fusions, of the Rpmanian Communist Party.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 06:43:56 AM
Okay. Interesting. Maybe if I talked more about coffee drinking and sauna you would decide again I'm from Finland?
That's the reason why the rust belt is called that and not the belt of prosperity. :-\
I said the rust belt is
left to rot, Mr. Finland Person. The point is Dems have done less than they should have done to expand the economy. It goes back to Clinton, who thought running a private sector deficit for several years was a triumph of some kind, a "surplus" of something that was more important. Obama was influenced by the same Clintonians to pivot from expansion to deficit cutting, producing a historically weak recovery.
Ready to give Trump the boot!
Quote from: Herman on November 01, 2020, 12:16:49 AM
And yet you don't seem to be anywhere near as worried about these things as about Antifa.
At this point BLM has proven to be worse than either... you don't hear as much news about alt-right groups causing violence, the destruction and murders were mainly from BLM people this year.
Also, they targeted a campaign bus, something I'd never be involved in. Antifa targets random people that disagree with them and forms a mob to beat people up.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 06:26:48 AM
I don't identify with the far left. I identify with the left. If you look at me through the US Overton window, I am "far left", but that's because the Overton Window has moved so far right.
I find that hard to believe in this age where gays can marry, and most people don't have a problem with it. Many countries still have the death penalty or prison sentences for being gay. The US doesn't seem very far right unless you are coming from a very far left perspective.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 06:26:48 AM
Capitalism makes better cars than communism for example
Not necessarily.
You're absolutely missing the point about "capitalism" and "communism", because you are just as materialist as the most selfish US billionaire.
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 01, 2020, 04:56:44 AM
Counter protesting white supremacists and fascists and punching the occasional Nazi in the face isn't terrorism.
It is, because often the person isn't a Nazi. There were some older stories about them saying anti-semitic stuff and attacking a Jewish person, this one is a newer story:
Antifa militants attack 'Jews for Trump' supporters in New York Cityhttps://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-antifa-militants-attack-trump-supporters-in-new-york-city
So attacking Jews is okay as long as they are Trump supporters?
They are authoritarians. They aren't even pure anarchists, I don't think, because I think that type would just have a pure "live and let live" mentality without using force of any kind to anyone.
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 08:41:32 AM
Not necessarily.
You're absolutely missing the point about "capitalism" and "communism", because you are just as materialist as the most selfish US billionaire.
If you mean people are more free in capitalism, lack of freedom is not inherently part of communism. It's just that historically communism has been practiced in countries lacking freedom anyway. For example Russia is now a capitalist country, but Russians are not any more "free" than they were in communist Soviet Union, because they tend to have authoritarian leaders there for some reason (history? poor education? mentality? I don't know).
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 08:31:00 AMI find that hard to believe in this age where gays can marry, and most people don't have a problem with it. Many countries still have the death penalty or prison sentences for being gay. The US doesn't seem very far right unless you are coming from a very far left perspective.
Those in power can do that, symbolism and social issues. Nothing hinges on them. on the contrary being woke can increase income. The US is NOT that right on social issues, but it IS very far right on economic issues.
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 08:43:34 AM
So attacking Jews is okay as long as they are Trump supporters?
Of course it's not. Who says it's okay?
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 08:31:00 AM
At this point BLM has proven to be worse than either... you don't hear as much news about alt-right groups causing violence, the destruction and murders were mainly from BLM people this year.
There was violence and destruction that occurred during mass demonstrations by BLM protesters. This is a well known phenomenon. People with violent destructive aims exploit the situation. Some are not political, some are extremists from both sides. Most BLM demos are non-violent, but in some urban areas violent opportunists manage to create enough trouble to grab a considerable amount of news coverage. It has had an effect, so now some people think there are BLM murderers. That is, they
believe that, a Constitutionally protected right.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 09:05:30 AM
Of course it's not. Who says it's okay?
People say that people say it's OK. People say it's not OK. What people say people say wins.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 09:05:30 AM
Of course it's not. Who says it's okay?
Well, apparently Antifa does. I'm not saying anyone here specifically believes that. Moreso meant to be a rhetorical question.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2020, 09:03:21 AM
The US is NOT that right on social issues, but it IS very far right on economic issues.
This is a good distinction.
I would say moderately right, though. If it were very far right then I think we would still have slavery, or some other system where it were impossible to move from being poor to middle class.
Still, though, economically, IMO we could use some leftward movement to balance things out, just that it has to be done in an effective way.
Quote from: drogulus on November 01, 2020, 10:01:47 AM
It has had an effect, so now some people think there are BLM murderers.
But there were a few this year.
As for fascist groups, surely there's some actual groups out there (the Proud Boys is not one of them), but they seem to not make much noise. If they did, I'd have a problem with it.
Whoever is making the most noise is the one I have a problem with currently. The current problem seems to be a bit more on the left with extremist groups that openly hate America and want to tear it down. The time they were chanting "Death to America" pretty much sums it up.
Now, to be completely honest --- which I always strive to be, and sometimes fail --- Voltaire was a racist, so demolishing his statue by the racism token alone is entirely justified. Yet he was also an outspoken champion of free speech (admittedly only when it suited him, but still...) and he was genuinely opposed to injustice and fanaticism. All things considered, he was more on the side of the good than of the bad, so demolishing his statue is ultimately unjustified.
All this boils down to "history is not written in black and white but in much nore than fifty shades of gray" --- a notion that fanatics and (useful) idiots on both sides ignore at others' peril.
greg, this is for you, budddy!
The percentage of eligible voters who abstain from voting measures the degree of concrete liberty in a democracy.
Where liberty is fictitious, or where it is threatened, the percentage tends toward zero. - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
If interested, more here: http://don-colacho.blogspot.com/ (http://don-colacho.blogspot.com/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/25b6DGY4/3276-NB3-DTQ6-KBEYT5-AFX7-KW33-U.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I have doubts about accuracy; but interesting.
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 12:40:22 PM
But there were a few this year.
It's impossible to say with certainty, but it would surprise me if there was one BLM protester who committed murder.
These are not difficult distinctions to make. I follow news of protests like other people do, and no matter how determined BLM is to maintain order among their own groups their ability to control the behavior of people unaffiliated with them is limited, since there are small but determined groups intent on causing trouble, in some cases despite who will be blamed, in others because of who'll be blamed. Then there are criminals who are apolitical and couldn't care less about blame.
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 12:40:22 PM
Well, apparently Antifa does.
Well, they should not.
Quote from: geralmar on November 01, 2020, 01:49:01 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/25b6DGY4/3276-NB3-DTQ6-KBEYT5-AFX7-KW33-U.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I have doubts about accuracy; but interesting.
I wonder what the methodology was. Appalachia really stands out. Why is the Upper Peninsula of Michigan so racist? And Bakersfield/Fresno more racist than Eastern Oregon, Eastern Washington state, and Idaho? That swath of California looks like it also includes Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo. I have heard of white supremacists in SLO.
I would imagine it tallies the number of reported racial incidents (police records?) vs a county's population. There must be a national figure from which the 'less' and 'more' than average is calculated. But over what time period ?
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 12:50:56 PM
greg, this is for you, budddy!
The percentage of eligible voters who abstain from voting measures the degree of concrete liberty in a democracy.
Where liberty is fictitious, or where it is threatened, the percentage tends toward zero. - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
If interested, more here: http://don-colacho.blogspot.com/ (http://don-colacho.blogspot.com/)
Great aphorism. Although I am exhilirated at the much-increased turnout of the vote, the percentage of abstentions is nowhere near zero, and there is nothing admirable in Greg's disengagement from the privilege of voting: especially as he regularly wanks on this thread.
Quote from: Florestan on November 01, 2020, 06:40:59 AM
Thanks for replying, but honestly I think you conflated two questions in one answer. Allow me to separate them.
My first question was: Do both sides have their share of fanatics and (useful) idiots?
Your answer: Not really..
My second question was: If yes: Given the proper circumstances, can these fanatics and (useful) idiots on both sides do a lot of harm?
Your answer: Serious violence and murder has been almost exclusively on the side of right wing groups white supremacists
Thanks for answering. again. I have some supplementary questions, if I may:
1. What do you mean by "serious"? Where do you draw the line between "serious violence and murder" and "trivial violence and murder"?
2. according to you, "right wing groups white supremacists" have been given, and taken full advantage of, proper circumstances. Fine. Let me rephrase my second question: are there no far-left groups which given the proper circumstances will retort to just as serious violence and murder as the right-wing groups?
This discussion I find worthwhile. I think I have more sympathy with the left and I can kind of see how my friends think of themselves as being on the right side of justice and history. It's easier to identify where the intentions of the American far right are immoral, grotesque, hateful, etc. The question of the left is stranger and more interesting to me. I see a lot of my friends, for example, having had sympathy with Kathleen Soliah/Sara Jane Olson, who's even spoken publicly on panels about various social issues. You'd think someone like her would just hide in shame and thank her luck to be walking free. For those of you who don't know, she was a member of the SLA in the 60's and eluded capture by living under an assumed name (she became a bourgeois housewife in Minnesota, raising a family and volunteering for various charities) for many decades. She was paroled after finally being caught and serving a short sentence for crimes related to terrorism and murder.
You'd think Keith Ellison would be exiled from holding public office for having downplayed and rationalized the murder and terrorism committed by the SLA and having giving speeches in support of Soliah (and for having connections to Louis Farrakhan).
I've had conversations pointing out Ellison's speeches on this - thinking if they knew what he'd said, they'd be surprised and try to distance themselves. But they just minimize it. Now Ellison is the Attorney General of the state of Minnesota.
The left does have a lot of people who find ways not to take itself seriously but these days, it seems, that you especially don't want to get caught, "owned" or "taken down" for not being radical enough.
I've had similar encounters over many issues of the hashtag left. I had a conversation over "believe all women." I was disagreeing with this while exchanging views with a feminist and a dude got very hot with me. He started to argue that "believe all" didn't actually mean "all" and was a kind of metaphor. But the feminist turned on him in an instant, "no, it really does mean all!" The left is willing to murder and destroy in the name of good intentions. Maybe that makes it more insidious.
I'm still on the left, BTW, though maybe my train has left the station. These days the left seems more like the right in its almost religious devotion to certain attitudes and irrational beliefs.
Quote from: drogulus on November 01, 2020, 01:55:53 PM
It's impossible to say with certainty, but it would surprise me if there was one BLM protester who committed murder.
You might have missed them, then. There was one where they followed a Trump supporter and then murdered him. Another where there was an argument at some protest and the BLM guy murdered the Trump supporter. And then another one I just discovered, that I had missed in July, a 24-year old mom getting shot and killed for saying "All Lives Matter" at a BLM protest.
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 08:54:12 PM
You might have missed them, then. There was one where they followed a Trump supporter and then murdered him. Another where there was an argument at some protest and the BLM guy murdered the Trump supporter. And then another one I just discovered, that I had missed in July, a 24-year old mom getting shot and killed for saying "All Lives Matter" at a BLM protest.
You're going to have to do better than that. Show some evidence. There is one in Portland and even with that one there's evidence that when the police found the guy who did kill the Proud Boy member they may have not announced themselves and shot him in cold blood.
BUT, I can give you some very real people on the rightwing side who have murdered people. The El Paso murderer of the people at Walmart. Heather Heyer in Charlottesville, Jeremy Christian in Portland. He was a Proud Boy member who murdered 2 men on a Portland MAX train. The two men rushed to the assistance of two muslim girls and Christian slashed them with a knife.
You want to claim most of the violence comes from antifa, but I can tell you that that is clearly NOT the case. I'm sure you support the "very fine people" in Charlottesville who came out to spread their vile hatred, with one mowing down Heather Hyer in his car.
Greg, it's clear you have a rightwing agenda.
Quote from: Dowder on November 01, 2020, 05:34:10 PM
Get ready for the shock of your lives, leftists, liberals, globalists, neoconservatives and neoliberals. MAGA is coming for you Tuesday.
Last post till election when I get to gloat at the American people's victory over the illegal Dem power grab.
Ya, I'm sure your fanatical "dear leader" will proclaim himself king that day even without clear evidence of his "victory." FOOL. Talk about an illegal power grab. He'll say he's won even though only 2 states show him potentially "leading."
BTW, you clearly don't know what a neoliberal is.
indeed, it looks like this is the GOPs game plan.
Declare victory some time between ten pm and midnight, no matter what.
Posit this as a fact and after that the foot soldiers will not accept a reversal.
Chaos will ensue and that's when the SCOTUS comes in handy.
BTW it's hard to believe you guys have let yourself draw into a "good / bad people on both sides" discussion by the lo-info greg troll.
VASA
Vote America Sane Again
My party is destroying itself on the altar of Trump
Opinion by Benjamin L. Ginsberg
Benjamin L. Ginsberg practiced election law for 38 years. He co-chaired the bipartisan 2013 Presidential Commission on Election Administration.
President Trump has failed the test of leadership. His bid for reelection is foundering. And his only solution has been to launch an all-out, multimillion-dollar effort to disenfranchise voters — first by seeking to block state laws to ease voting during the pandemic, and now, in the final stages of the campaign, by challenging the ballots of individual voters unlikely to support him.
This is as un-American as it gets. It returns the Republican Party to the bad old days of "voter suppression" that landed it under a court order to stop such tactics — an order lifted before this election. It puts the party on the wrong side of demographic changes in this country that threaten to make the GOP a permanent minority.
These are painful words for me to write. I spent four decades in the Republican trenches, representing GOP presidential and congressional campaigns, working on Election Day operations, recounts, redistricting and other issues, including trying to lift the consent decree.
Nearly every Election Day since 1984 I've worked with Republican poll watchers, observers and lawyers to record and litigate any fraud or election irregularities discovered.
The truth is that over all those years Republicans found only isolated incidents of fraud. Proof of systematic fraud has become the Loch Ness Monster of the Republican Party. People have spent a lot of time looking for it, but it doesn't exist.
As he confronts losing, Trump has devoted his campaign and the Republican Party to this myth of voter fraud. Absent being able to articulate a cogent plan for a second term or find an attack against Joe Biden that will stick, disenfranchising enough voters has become key to his reelection strategy.
Perhaps this was the plan all along. The president's unsubstantiated talk about "rigged" elections caused by absentee ballot "fraud" and "cheating" has been around since 2016; it's just increased in recent weeks.
Trump has enlisted a compliant Republican Party in this shameful effort. The Trump campaign and Republican entities engaged in more than 40 voting and ballot court cases around the country this year. In exactly none — zero — are they trying to make it easier for citizens to vote. In many, they are seeking to erect barriers.
All of the suits include the mythical fraud claim. Many are efforts to disqualify absentee ballots, which have surged in the pandemic. The grounds range from supposedly inadequate signature matches to burdensome witness requirements. Others concern excluding absentee ballots postmarked on Election Day but received later, as permitted under state deadlines. Voter-convenience devices such as drop boxes and curbside voting have been attacked.
Texas Republicans even thought it was a good idea to challenge 100,000 ballots already cast at a Harris County drive-through voting center that they want retroactively declared illegal. Perhaps they forgot the Republican expressions of outrage in Florida in 2000 when Democrats sought unsuccessfully to exclude 25,000 absentee ballots in GOP counties because of administrative error, not voter fault.
I was there, and I haven't.
The GOP lawyers managing these lawsuits may have tactical reasons for bringing each. But taken as a whole, they shout the unmistakable message that an expanded electorate means Trump loses.
This attempted disenfranchisement of voters cannot be justified by the unproven Republican dogma about widespread fraud. Challenging voters at the polls or disputing the legitimacy of mail-in ballots isn't about fraud. Rather than producing conservative policies that appeal to suburban women, young voters or racial minorities, Republicans are trying to exclude their votes.
"We have volunteers, attorneys and staff in place to ensure that election officials are following the law and counting every lawful ballot," Justin Riemer, chief counsel for the Republican National Committee, said Friday.
That's not precisely true. The Republican challenging effort is focused almost exclusively in heavily Democratic areas. Signature mismatches will go unheeded by Trump forces in friendly precincts. This is not about finding fraud and irregularities. It's about suppressing the number of votes not cast for Trump.
Maybe the president foreshadowed his real purpose at a Pennsylvania rally Saturday night, predicting "bedlam" if the results aren't known Nov. 3. In fact, challenged ballots aren't reviewed until days later. So in a tight race, Trump's demands for a quick result could cause the very bedlam he rails against. Or allow him to claim a false election night victory based on bad-faith challenges.
How sad it is to recall that just seven years ago the Grand Old Party conducted an "autopsy" that emphasized the urgency of building a big tent to reach communities of color, women and young voters. Now it is erecting voting barriers for those very groups. Instead of enlarging the tent, the party has taken a chain saw to its center pole.
My party is destroying itself on the Altar of Trump. Republican elected officials, party leaders and voters must recognize how harmful this is to the party's long-term prospects.
My fellow Republicans, look what we've become. It is we who must fix this. Trump should not be reelected. Vote, but not for him.
Here's some high end political journalism: Election: Incumbent Kurt Schrader faces challenger Amy Ryan Courser in 5th District (https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/02/2020-election-oregon-fifth-congressional-district-race/3759413001/)
I will quote in full simply in case it is removed or updated before the promised time.
Quote from: Bill Poehler
This story will be updated when initial election results are announced around 8 p.m. Nov. 3.
Incumbent Democrat Kurt Schrader faces Republican challenger Amy Ryan Courser and Libertarian candidate Matthew Rix to represent Oregon's Fifth Congressional District in the General Election.
Oregon Democrat Kurt Schrader held a commanding XX-XX lead against Republican challenger Amy Ryan Courser in the race for Oregon's Fifth Congressional District in initial election returns Tuesday.
Republican upstart Amy Ryan Courser appears to be pulling out a stunning upset in Tuesday's initial returns, leading Democrat incumbent Kurt Schrader by a XX-XX margin in Tuesday's initial election returns.
Libertarian candidate Matthew Rix has a distant XX% of the initial vote.
Schrader, a 68-year-old from Canby, has held Oregon's Congressional District 5 seat since 2008, winning six terms by wide margins, usually without serious opposition.
Ryan Courser, a 51-year-old from Keizer, was known as Amy Ryan when she held her first public office as a city council member in Keizer from 2015 to 2018.
Rix, a 29-year-old from Oregon City, had never run for or held a public office previously.
Oregon's fifth congressional district represents Salem, a swath north to parts of Portland, east to Stayton and Detroit and west to the central coast, including Lincoln City, Tillamook and Newport and includes parts of Marion, Clackamas, Yamhill, Lincoln and Tillamook counties.
Journalism is hard.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 02, 2020, 05:33:49 AM
My party is destroying itself on the altar of Trump
Opinion by Benjamin L. Ginsberg
Benjamin L. Ginsberg practiced election law for 38 years. He co-chaired the bipartisan 2013 Presidential Commission on Election Administration.
President Trump has failed the test of leadership. His bid for reelection is foundering. And his only solution has been to launch an all-out, multimillion-dollar effort to disenfranchise voters — first by seeking to block state laws to ease voting during the pandemic, and now, in the final stages of the campaign, by challenging the ballots of individual voters unlikely to support him.
This is as un-American as it gets. It returns the Republican Party to the bad old days of "voter suppression" that landed it under a court order to stop such tactics — an order lifted before this election. It puts the party on the wrong side of demographic changes in this country that threaten to make the GOP a permanent minority.
These are painful words for me to write. I spent four decades in the Republican trenches, representing GOP presidential and congressional campaigns, working on Election Day operations, recounts, redistricting and other issues, including trying to lift the consent decree.
Nearly every Election Day since 1984 I've worked with Republican poll watchers, observers and lawyers to record and litigate any fraud or election irregularities discovered.
The truth is that over all those years Republicans found only isolated incidents of fraud. Proof of systematic fraud has become the Loch Ness Monster of the Republican Party. People have spent a lot of time looking for it, but it doesn't exist.
As he confronts losing, Trump has devoted his campaign and the Republican Party to this myth of voter fraud. Absent being able to articulate a cogent plan for a second term or find an attack against Joe Biden that will stick, disenfranchising enough voters has become key to his reelection strategy.
Perhaps this was the plan all along. The president's unsubstantiated talk about "rigged" elections caused by absentee ballot "fraud" and "cheating" has been around since 2016; it's just increased in recent weeks.
Trump has enlisted a compliant Republican Party in this shameful effort. The Trump campaign and Republican entities engaged in more than 40 voting and ballot court cases around the country this year. In exactly none — zero — are they trying to make it easier for citizens to vote. In many, they are seeking to erect barriers.
All of the suits include the mythical fraud claim. Many are efforts to disqualify absentee ballots, which have surged in the pandemic. The grounds range from supposedly inadequate signature matches to burdensome witness requirements. Others concern excluding absentee ballots postmarked on Election Day but received later, as permitted under state deadlines. Voter-convenience devices such as drop boxes and curbside voting have been attacked.
Texas Republicans even thought it was a good idea to challenge 100,000 ballots already cast at a Harris County drive-through voting center that they want retroactively declared illegal. Perhaps they forgot the Republican expressions of outrage in Florida in 2000 when Democrats sought unsuccessfully to exclude 25,000 absentee ballots in GOP counties because of administrative error, not voter fault.
I was there, and I haven't.
The GOP lawyers managing these lawsuits may have tactical reasons for bringing each. But taken as a whole, they shout the unmistakable message that an expanded electorate means Trump loses.
This attempted disenfranchisement of voters cannot be justified by the unproven Republican dogma about widespread fraud. Challenging voters at the polls or disputing the legitimacy of mail-in ballots isn't about fraud. Rather than producing conservative policies that appeal to suburban women, young voters or racial minorities, Republicans are trying to exclude their votes.
"We have volunteers, attorneys and staff in place to ensure that election officials are following the law and counting every lawful ballot," Justin Riemer, chief counsel for the Republican National Committee, said Friday.
That's not precisely true. The Republican challenging effort is focused almost exclusively in heavily Democratic areas. Signature mismatches will go unheeded by Trump forces in friendly precincts. This is not about finding fraud and irregularities. It's about suppressing the number of votes not cast for Trump.
Maybe the president foreshadowed his real purpose at a Pennsylvania rally Saturday night, predicting "bedlam" if the results aren't known Nov. 3. In fact, challenged ballots aren't reviewed until days later. So in a tight race, Trump's demands for a quick result could cause the very bedlam he rails against. Or allow him to claim a false election night victory based on bad-faith challenges.
How sad it is to recall that just seven years ago the Grand Old Party conducted an "autopsy" that emphasized the urgency of building a big tent to reach communities of color, women and young voters. Now it is erecting voting barriers for those very groups. Instead of enlarging the tent, the party has taken a chain saw to its center pole.
My party is destroying itself on the Altar of Trump. Republican elected officials, party leaders and voters must recognize how harmful this is to the party's long-term prospects.
My fellow Republicans, look what we've become. It is we who must fix this. Trump should not be reelected. Vote, but not for him.
The Loch Ness comparison is not entirely accurate.
There are after all fuzzy photographs, incoherent accounts of first hand sightings, and a couple of banged up boats that can be cited as "proof" of Nessie's existence.
The claim of systemic voter fraud does not even have that much to back it up.
Passed as emended.
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 08:54:12 PM
You might have missed them, then. There was one where they followed a Trump supporter and then murdered him. Another where there was an argument at some protest and the BLM guy murdered the Trump supporter. And then another one I just discovered, that I had missed in July, a 24-year old mom getting shot and killed for saying "All Lives Matter" at a BLM protest.
I'm sure there are "they" murderers. I'm talking about BLM protesters. If you could link to failing news sources it would be helpful.
You don't expect a guy with such a high IQ to rely on mere news sources, do you?
Quote from: greg on November 01, 2020, 08:54:12 PM
You might have missed them, then. There was one where they followed a Trump supporter and then murdered him. Another where there was an argument at some protest and the BLM guy murdered the Trump supporter. And then another one I just discovered, that I had missed in July, a 24-year old mom getting shot and killed for saying "All Lives Matter" at a BLM protest.
Serious violence by the left has been pretty anecdotal in nature. Of course every murder is too much no matter who murders who. I wrote earlier the left should wise up and become more strategic. Violence against Trumpists doesn't help achieving left wing goals.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2020, 08:58:21 AM
Serious violence by the left has been pretty anecdotal in nature. Of course every murder is too much no matter who murders who. I wrote earlier the left should wise up and become more strategic. Violence against Trumpists doesn't help achieving left wing goals.
And only one of the candidates has unequivocally condemned violence, by no matter whom.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 02, 2020, 09:12:35 AM
And only one of the candidates has unequivocally condemned violence, by no matter whom.
Well one of the candidates does only things that benefits himself somehow...
QAnon received earlier boost from Russian accounts on Twitter, archives show. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-qanon-cyber-idUSKBN27I18I?utm_source=reddit.com)
Researchers said in August that the archives showed Russian accounts had helped spread QAnon in volume beginning in December 2017, reut.rs/2TFWoWc, but that team did not examine the history of specific QAnon promoters.
A more granular review by Reuters shows Russian accounts began amplifying the movement as it started, early in the previous month.
From November 2017 on, QAnon was the single most frequent hashtag tweeted by accounts that Twitter has since identified as Russian-backed, a Reuters analysis of the archive shows, with the term used some 17,000 times.
The archives contain more than 4,000 accounts that Twitter suspended for spreading Russian government disinformation in 2018 and 2019 but preserved for researchers.
The trove shows that some of the Russian accounts tweeted about QAnon's most important popularizer even before the anonymous figure known as Q emerged, then rewarded her with more promotion when she put videos about Q on YouTube.
It's worth noting that QAnon is quite active in the UK, France, Germany and Italy. So, give me money.
"Right. Russia."
Here's the woman shot dead, two different sources:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8515507/Young-mother-24-shot-dead-fianc-saying-lives-matter.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-jessica-doty-whitaker-shot-dead-indianapolis-all-lives-matter-20200713-jcm5oyjca5fz5kge4qtlhh7dnu-story.html
The Atlanta story, armed BLM protestors shooting random people:
https://www.wjcl.com/article/you-killed-a-child-armed-protesters-in-georgia-fire-into-car-striking-8-year-old-girl/33213890#
The one in Denver actually is somewhat questionable, it may have been reported incorrectly at first (Matthew Doloff) so unclear whether he had connections to BLM/Antifa. He murdered the right-wing guy during the right/left protests.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 01, 2020, 11:00:51 PM
You want to claim most of the violence comes from antifa, but I can tell you that that is clearly NOT the case. I'm sure you support the "very fine people" in Charlottesville who came out to spread their vile hatred, with one mowing down Heather Hyer in his car.
Greg, it's clear you have a rightwing agenda.
I already don't want to talk to you... your posts here haven already had an out of control and neurotic tone.
I already said the murders are from BLM, not Antifa. I think it was only one time an Antifa guy murdered someone.
Every disagreement with stuff on the left automatically means I am on the right. Oh, I'm probably a fascist and a secret KKK member, too, right? Guess I should just suicide because some random person on the internet that just started talking to me knows me better than I know myself.
Tribalism, oh, it's not a problem...
I love the condescending tone of people on this thread. What a fantastic personality trait. Guess I'll do it, too, why not, you can be perfectly clear and logical and still people will think you have some evil agenda.
Quote from: Herman on November 02, 2020, 12:08:32 AM
BTW it's hard to believe you guys have let yourself draw into a "good / bad people on both sides" discussion by the lo-info greg troll.
All conservatives are evil and must be genocided. And saying otherwise is being a troll. There is no in-between. This is superior think.
I'll ask again, why do you have to be so spiteful? Seriously, what is wrong with you?
What's the story with those gloves Trump's wearing these days at rallies?
Why does he do this?
If he loses the elections he can blame those gloves, because his harmonica hands don't work this way.
Just a thought, over the course of months I can have reasonable conversations and disagree with people like drogulus, 71db, Dowder, even Florestan sometimes, etc.
...and it's all good, no problems. We can work through it.
but some people here are insufferable to talk to, it's the same pattern every single time- if you say something about something they don't like, it has to be made into a personal attack and put you constantly on the defense through constant name calling. Constantly being unreasonable. Usually as a diversion from the actual points being made.
Well, you know what, it's possible, just look at the people who don't make it personal constantly. You need to take a moment and self-reflect on this. Of course, I doubt that will happen, just needs to be said.
Quote from: greg on November 02, 2020, 11:46:02 AM
Here's the woman shot dead, two different sources:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8515507/Young-mother-24-shot-dead-fianc-saying-lives-matter.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-jessica-doty-whitaker-shot-dead-indianapolis-all-lives-matter-20200713-jcm5oyjca5fz5kge4qtlhh7dnu-story.html
I read up on this, and it seems there was a confrontation between this woman and the group she was with and another group at about 3:30AM. One of her group used the N word, the other group took offense and one of them shouted "black lives matter" and she replied "white lives matter". At some point both sides brandished guns, then according to her boyfriend, who was armed, the situation deescalated and the groups parted. Very soon after someone fired a shot that killed Whitaker. The police haven't released any information about the incident beyond that, so the perpetrator is unknown.
Start with the fact that the incident occurred at 3:30AM. There was no BLM protest going on. Is this the basis for saying a BLM protester murdered someone?
The Atlanta case is the kind that bothers me more. People can be criminals and protesters at the same time. The history of mass protest movements is that people like this get involved in them. It happened to the civil rights movement, the labor movement and the antiwar movement.
Quote from: drogulus on November 02, 2020, 12:30:24 PM
I read up on this, and it seems there was a confrontation between this woman and the group she was with and another group at about 3:30AM. One of her group used the N word, the other group took offense and one of them shouted "black lives matter" and she replied "white lives matter". At some point both sides brandished guns, then according to her boyfriend, who was armed, the situation deescalated and the groups parted. Very soon after someone fired a shot that killed Whitaker. The police haven't released any information about the incident beyond that, so the perpetrator is unknown.
Start with the fact that the incident occurred at 3:30AM. There was no BLM protest going on. Is this the basis for saying a BLM protester murdered someone?
The Atlanta case is the kind that bothers me more. People can be criminals and protesters at the same time. The history of mass protest movements is that people like this get involved in them. It happened to the civil rights movement, the labor movement and the antiwar movement.
Thanks for the reply.
This is a good example of how you make a reply. Others here should take note instead of being toxic and just calling people names.
If news sources made it out to be unquestionably BLM in order to ragebait people, then screw them.
Here's the deal, man. This will be the first time in my lifetime (retiree now) when I'd feel ashamed admitting to MY friends and acquaintances that, despite all his manifold faults, I still admire Donald Trump and the shake-up he's given the out-of-control Left in the USA and 'the swamp'. I'd feel humiliated and on the defensive with most of the people I know. And I also know I could never discuss this. The irony is that I do lots of wide reading (books etc.) and they (except for one or two) do practically none!! You couldn't, for example, tell any of them that there's been a huge historical body count for regimes which were committed to 'fairness, social justice and equity'.
This all tells me why Donald Trump was elected in the first place. The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant. It's ugly and frightening and so reminiscent to me of the enforced conformity of earlier decades when the conservative right controlled the agenda and Mary Whitehouse held sway in Britain. Only now it's much worse because you wouldn't have been literally afraid back them to support either of the belief systems espoused by those groups.
Fear of ostracism should not surround your whole system of beliefs and who you are. But this was a feature from WITHIN the class system of Britain and the middle class establishments in the western world. The Left was meant to change all that and only made it FAR WORSE- and on a global scale.
Quote from: Christabel on November 02, 2020, 01:06:26 PM
Here's the deal, man. This will be the first time in my lifetime (retiree now) when I'd feel ashamed admitting to MY friends and acquaintances that, despite all his manifold faults, I still admire Donald Trump and the shake-up he's given the out-of-control Left in the USA and 'the swamp'. I'd feel humiliated and on the defensive with most of the people I know. And I also know I could never discuss this. The irony is that I do lots of wide reading (books etc.) and they (except for one or two) do practically none!! You couldn't, for example, tell any of them that there's been a huge historical body count for regimes which were committed to 'fairness, social justice and equity'.
This all tells me why Donald Trump was elected in the first place. The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant. It's ugly and frightening and so reminiscent to me of the enforced conformity of earlier decades when the conservative right controlled the agenda and Mary Whitehouse held sway in Britain. Only now it's much worse because you wouldn't have been literally afraid back them to support either of the belief systems espoused by those groups.
Fear of ostracism should not surround your whole system of beliefs and who you are. But this was a feature from WITHIN the class system of Britain and the middle class establishments in the western world. The Left was meant to change all that and only made it FAR WORSE- and on a global scale.
What a bunch of hogswallop. The only thing the Left has endeavored to change is the obvious close-minded and ostracism the Right has done to people who think for themselves and aren't persuaded by conspiracy crap.
Yet, we have the Right shooting people for stealing signs: https://www.yahoo.com/news/3-kansas-teens-were-shot-202017565.html
Quote from: greg on November 02, 2020, 12:16:05 PM
Just a thought, over the course of months I can have reasonable conversations and disagree with people like drogulus, 71db, Dowder, even Florestan sometimes, etc.
...and it's all good, no problems. We can work through it.
but some people here are insufferable to talk to, it's the same pattern every single time- if you say something about something they don't like, it has to be made into a personal attack and put you constantly on the defense through constant name calling. Constantly being unreasonable. Usually as a diversion from the actual points being made.
Well, you know what, it's possible, just look at the people who don't make it personal constantly. You need to take a moment and self-reflect on this. Of course, I doubt that will happen, just needs to be said.
I don't make time for ignorant people.
Quote from: Christabel on November 02, 2020, 01:06:26 PM
The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant.
It's characteristic of a marginalized left that has lost its way. Capturing the flag in academia isn't very ascendant to me, it's kind of a booby prize. The economic left has been in eclipse for many decades.
Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 02, 2020, 02:05:38 PM
What a bunch of hogswallop. The only thing the Left has endeavored to change is the obvious close-minded and ostracism the Right has done to people who think for themselves and aren't persuaded by conspiracy crap.
PhD quality writing.
I don't know what it's like to be around shamers or groupthinkers. The left people I know don't like it. I don't know many people, though. What are they like?
Seriously, I think, people I know tend be belong to the outsider class, though just a while ago guests spent a weekend here. One is a confirmed Trumpist while her niece sidled up to one of us and whispered that she hoped Trump would go away, like she didn't want Auntie to hear.
Quote from: Christabel on November 02, 2020, 01:06:26 PM
The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant. It's ugly and frightening and so reminiscent to me of the enforced conformity of earlier decades when the conservative right controlled the agenda and Mary Whitehouse held sway in Britain.
Yeah, it's "cancel culture," aka "witch hunts."
I provide examples of violence from the left and part of the response is that
I, personally, probably support a group of racists that ended up murdering someone?
This is literally this mentality in action, right now. An overeagerness to get the bad guy. It's the attitude that these far left groups are "just punching Nazis."
Sounds great, right? No, the problem is that how this is actually implemented, is that whoever disagrees with them is a Nazi.
I don't think either side should have extremist groups, they are both cancer.
Though I have to say Trump is also guilty of naming/shaming, and I don't like it. "Sleepy Joe?" What is even the point of that?
And I have to question people such as Karl, habitually putting down people with personal attacks, name calling "Huggy Bear," etc. and the way he replies to Poju, how is that also not toxic? Seems very Trump-like. Why not do better?
Quote from: drogulus on November 02, 2020, 03:21:08 PM
I don't know what it's like to be around shamers or groupthinkers. The left people I know don't like it. I don't know many people, though. What are they like?
People on here qualify sometimes, though you mostly tend to not make things personal, but rather stick to the topic (as far as I can tell at least, it can be difficult to understand your posts lol), and that's the right way to go about discussion.
I would also mention that Twitter is notorious for this "cancel culture" mentality. I don't use Twitter, but do see some of the stuff that happens there, and it's just bizarre.
Whenever Trumpists (I no longer call them Republicans) have their ignorance pointed out, they claim they are victims of cancel culture. Nonsense (PhD enough for your Todd?).
When we have your standard-bearer being the most ignorant, conspiracy-spouting politician out there who projects his corruption onto his foes, then I have no sympathy for you. You feel put upon? Then come back to at least a moderate view that doesn't espouse a Know-Nothing platform that your standard-bearer pushes. The anti-immigrant, inward-looking approach is NOT what the US is all about. Everything Trump stands for is anathema to what the US stands for. Bill the Butcher has more in common with Donald and for you to support his ignorant views toward US immigration and place in the world makes you just as ignorant and guilty.
Quote from: greg on November 02, 2020, 03:48:59 PM
People on here qualify sometimes, though you mostly tend to not make things personal, but rather stick to the topic (as far as I can tell at least, it can be difficult to understand your posts lol), and that's the right way to go about discussion.
I would also mention that Twitter is notorious for this "cancel culture" mentality. I don't use Twitter, but do see some of the stuff that happens there, and it's just bizarre.
Hold on a sec, I have to check my privilege.....
Performative radicalism is an attempt to wrong foot anyone with a different idea, left, right, up, down, what have you. I find it extraordinary that people would think anything could be gained by responding to intellectual/social condescension by supporting Trump. Are we like
five??
Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 02, 2020, 04:11:04 PM
Whenever Trumpists (I no longer call them Republicans) have their ignorance pointed out, they claim they are victims of cancel culture. Nonsense (PhD enough for your Todd?).
When we have your standard-bearer being the most ignorant, conspiracy-spouting politician out there who projects his corruption onto his foes, then I have no sympathy for you. You feel put upon? Then come back to at least a moderate view that doesn't espouse a Know-Nothing platform that your standard-bearer pushes. The anti-immigrant, inward-looking approach is NOT what the US is all about. Everything Trump stands for is anathema to what the US stands for. Bill the Butcher has more in common with Donald and for you to support his ignorant views toward US immigration and place in the world makes you just as ignorant and guilty.
It gets better.
And here we see in Todd and Dowder the true cancel culturists. What I can't imagine in this community is that there are actually those here that support Trump. I can't imagine people with an ounce of grey matter supporting Trump, but obviously Dowder, greg, and Todd have proven me wrong.
Oh Dowder, it only pisses me off to see a charlatan like Trump to have actually been allowed to continue his corrupt practices and for people like you to swallow his corruption whole, but then that's why we have a complicit Senate who, regardless of obvious evidence, acquitted him last January.
And since when was it EVER normal for a president to separate Democrat and Republican cities and states and openly disparage Democratic cities and states? WHEN? Normal presidents view the US as a united whole. Donald is simply Jefferson Davis reincarnated. He's separated and divided us figuratively and actually, and made it a matter which has led us to the brink of a civil war.
Another one.
It might be a wise idea for the moderators to lock this thread for the next 48 hours or so.
I don't remember GMG members insulting each other with such abandon at any time before now.
Quote from: Christabel on November 02, 2020, 01:06:26 PM
The irony is that I do lots of wide reading (books etc.) and they (except for one or two) do practically none!! You couldn't, for example, tell any of them that there's been a huge historical body count for regimes which were committed to 'fairness, social justice and equity'.
funny you mention it, the US body count (now) is 230.000
Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 02, 2020, 04:36:08 PM
And here we see in Todd and Dowder the true cancel culturists. What I can't imagine in this community is that there are actually those here that support Trump. I can't imagine people with an ounce of grey matter supporting Trump, but obviously Dowder, greg, and Todd have proven me wrong.
"Stick it to the Libs," is a very strong impulse.
Quote from: JBS on November 02, 2020, 05:32:17 PMIt might be a wise idea for the moderators to lock this thread for the next 48 hours or so.
But then members will not be able to revel in the electoral success of the savior of democracy, or lament the death of the republic, whichever the case may be.
Quote from: Herman on November 02, 2020, 05:57:06 PM
"Stick it to the Libs," is a very strong impulse.
Pathetic!
I haven't listened to Sam Harris in a long time but I couldn't resist the temptation today to try, "the key to trump's appeal" - which Harris claims to have just figured out. I thought it was interesting. Why do people like trump, not in spite of his personality but because of it? Since he has no virtues personally, not honesty, integrity, wisdom, loyalty, discipline, kindness, generosity, etc., why do people embrace him? Since he's not really persuasive, why are so many people persuaded? Harris thinks it's because he can't possibly communicate sanctimony. Whatever else he is, he's not better than you and can never express that sentiment. He's truly a safe space for human sin and gore, and that, itself, is somehow comforting. Maybe it makes some sense.
Well, as many in the Lincoln Project have pointed out, the only way for the GOP to redeem themselves is to repudiate Trumpism.
We'll let things be for the time being.
I urge all US citizens to exercise their right to vote tomorrow, and in the meantime, remember that this is a classical music board. The moderators do look at posters' stats, and how often they post on music, versus other subjects. If your primary reason for being here is to discuss politics, another board may be a better choice.
--Bruce